There's always some one complaining about and quitting some game on these forums, and that's not this post. This post is about the sharp decline in Warhammer FB players and traders. When I joined Dakka, there seemed to be a good amount of both fantasy and 40k players. It was easy for me to trade a fantasy army to 40k and back again on numerous occasions. Now, it seems like every trade is fantasy models looking for 40k. Has it always been this way and I was just fortunate in the past to find fair trades, or is there an exodus from WHFB? I personally am currently trying to trade 2 decent sized fantasy armies, and am even offering to sell them at half of retail and I'm having no luck (and these are mostly unpainted, some un-assembled models! I for one am not leaving fantasy, and am merelyy trying to part with some extra armies as I have settled in with my two favorite armies, but are a lot of people leaving the hobby? I'm just looking for some information. Thanks all

The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

Listen, right now, with a new (and apparently controversial) 40k release, the apparent drop in Fantasy is more likely due to an increase in 40k traffic. Let it settle down and you'll see.

Just a little action/reaction.

Action: 6th edition just hit. The starter set just hit.

Reaction: Stuff that worked in 5th edition doesn't now, so people are either dumping entire squads/armies, or picking up new weapons that work better now.

Action: The Chaos codex and the Horus Heresy IA book are both going to be hitting VERY soon.

Reaction: People are realizing that their either need money for these new toys or space for these new toys, and need to dump some of their existing toys.

After a few months, things will settle down. That, or people REALLY dislike playing 8th edition now.

8th edition completely killed Fantasy in my area. Tournament attendance went from 50+ to maybe 8 people on a good day.

I like Fantasy in principle, but 8th was a bit of a turn off for me. The rule changes seemed geared to selling models rather than creating an atmospheric game, magic got very silly and suddenly every army had to have big arse monsters.

I didn't like the background changes either i.e. everywhere is now chaotic to some extent - rivers of blood, magic trees etc etc. Made we wonder how they grow crops

I don't know - there's definitely a sharp spike in 40k buzz with the new edition and all, but I quit WHFB shortly after 8E hit and I know I'm not the only one, most of the people I used to play it with have dropped it too. I personally think there is a decline in overall WHFB activity, but it'd be almost impossible to really measure it with all the 40k excitement going on. I guess we'll see in a few months? It'll be easier to tell when there's a sizeable WHFB release.

Certainly in my area the number of people starting up or even continuing fantasy has been dropping since 8E, no idea how widespread that is though. Right now my GW has almost as many LotR players and considerably more specialist gamers.

Im a fantasy player who has just crossed over into 40k and im utterly blown away at how much better 40k is imo. Ive only gotten through about half of the 40k rule book so far and im already buying/building models, converting models, and using green stuff. Havent even played a game yet but i know its going to be better than fantasy. (or maybe im just bored with fantasy). The depth of 40k is astonishing and ive only scratched the surface. I agree with your point in trading fantasy for 40k. I think 40k has a better resale value and i think trades reflect that as well. It also could be 40k weather right now. New book new models new codeces on the borizon. Everybody is scrambling to get models increases the demand.

Personally I love the setting and miniatures for fantasy, I just don't like the game (I don't like big regiment blocks on the best day, and I'm not into the 8E ruleset at all) so my WHFB consumption is limited to the odd really nice mini for painting purposes and anything I pick up with the intention of making a Mordheim warband or stocking my WHQ dungeon with.

Ineedvc2500 wrote:
Im a fantasy player who has just crossed over into 40k and im utterly blown away at how much better 40k is imo. Ive only gotten through about half of the 40k rule book so far and im already buying/building models, converting models, and using green stuff. Havent even played a game yet but i know its going to be better than fantasy. (or maybe im just bored with fantasy). The depth of 40k is astonishing and ive only scratched the surface. I agree with your point in trading fantasy for 40k. I think 40k has a better resale value and i think trades reflect that as well. It also could be 40k weather right now. New book new models new codeces on the borizon. Everybody is scrambling to get models increases the demand.

I find this comment interesting, as several years ago I would expect almost the exact opposite of this comment, although 40k (at least locally) still seemed to be the dominant game in number of players, many felt that WHFB was the 'deeper' of the two in both setting and rules. I think this was, at the time, due to the quality of the rules and a feeling that the lists were both more balanced and more interesting. (At the time most WHFB army books had the 'core' list and then some sort of fun Appendix material to make a variant. For example, Lizardmen had the base list to represent the Slann-ruled ancient empires in the NotSouthAmerica region of the WHFB world, then had a list represent the variant more primitive lizardmen of the NotAfrica region. I think it was mainly that the 'Old World' list was buitl arount he tiny skinks while the 'New World' got the larger trooper lizardmen.

BOLS had a recent news article on GW's sales numbers. Fantasy is definitely sucking hind tit.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/09/legalwatch-games-workshop-vs-chs.html

My FLGS dropped fantasy completly from the game lineup.
Not sure why, but alot of fantasy stuff finds its way into the bargain bins.

8th Definitely killed Fantasy in my area too. Funnily enough, while 8th edition Fantasy is the only one I've truly enjoyed playing, I really don't like 6th edition 40k (which has a LOT in common with 8th edition fantasy).

With others I've talked to about it where I live it's:

1. Price
2. 40K (since 6 ed. was released)
3. Playing something other than GW games

One thing which is notable is the specific aesthetic which GW uses for their fantasy figures is not terribly popular in the US (and Canada from what I have seen). Not sure when or where the split happened, but figures like the orcs, dwarves and goblins which seem to be fairly popular in the old world don't seem to get as much traction in the colonies.

Being a largely visual I am sure that that has a fair level of impact regarding the sales and level of activity. From my understanding, they are still fairly popular in the UK and Europe in general - though 40K is more so.

Fantasy is strong and growing 'round here. 40k, not so much.

i dont know about it becoming extinct but I just started playing fantasy with 2 other people (I'm high elves, another is skaven, and the third is Empire) after seeing a lot of people play it over the summer. I also noticed there were a lot of younger and newer players playing 40k making it seem more populous (even though it actually is) I also play 40k and my focus is mostly on 40k because. Another reason is, as stated above, 6th is out and they are dropping a lot of new swag so 40k will be the focus for a bit. But dont get me wrong Fantasy freaking rules.

Honestly I think it has to do with the fact that there are many more fantasy/medieval wargames out there that offer far better prices, for instance if I were to start playing fantasy/historical I would do one of the ones that has Roman's as a faction, which is probably another major detractor from the fantasy scene.

I have seen a distinct fall in fantasy players since the inception of 8th edition which is a real shame. I actually find 40k to be very boring and simple compared to a great game of fantasy. I have been trying very hard to get my friends to bring their fantasy armies out of their closets but its difficult.

I find 8E to be magic dependant etc like everyone else does but overall WHFB is a better gamiing system to me than 40k. Either 5E or 6E it dosent matter.

I wouldn't say WHFB is dying in my area rather remains the same. 40K is having its 25th anniversary year and is getting all the new shiney.

40K will wear down after a few months when people realize that "Cinematic" just means Poorly written rules like always,

WHFB can get really, really expensive. Moreso than 40k, in some cases.

Additionally, there was a lot of grumbling when 8th hit.

These two things, combined with the recent release of 6th ed, means that Fantasy is bound to take a hit.

While Fantasy has definitely taken a hit, I still think that it's quite popular, and is still well worth investing in and playing.

For a while, I stopped playing Fantasy a couple years ago, and barely looked at it when 8th came out, despite my friends who still played loving 8th. I played a few games with 8th, preferred it over 7th, and felt it went back to times of 5th edition, minus hero-hammer. But it still felt needlessly complicated. So I switched to 40k, having a bunch of friends who played that too, but in a different group.

Since then, most of my 40k buddies stopped playing, and my fantasy buddies picked up Dust Warfare instead of 40k, wanting a bit of a sci-fi aspect to try out. They found the game far superior in tactics, and attempted for weeks to get me to try it. Grudgingly, I accepted. I didn't think I'd like it, sticking to the "Warhammer is best" thought process. I was wrong-Dust is a much more enjoyable game than 40K, it doesn't lend itself to broken units, and you play what you like within the unit guidelines you pick, based on your command squads.

After starting this, I found out that my Fantasy buddies had become disinterested in GW's games entirely, largely based on prices and continuously over-complicated rules and how list-building won games, not tactics. I mentioned that I was getting the rulebook and a large quantity of models from Mantic due to their Kings of War kickstarter. My friends were willing to give it a try, in the attempt to search for a game with simpler rules that required tactics to win. Turns out, it only took one game of KoW to sell them on this game (being able to use any 28mm models helped make the sale too), and with a tight rule set, no ambiguous rules, no broken item combinations on units, simple rules with chess-like strategies, and the ability to play 3 games in a matter of a couple hours, our group decided that we were done with warhammer fantasy today. We'll keep the models we have for fantasy, but that's really only because we can use them for KoW.

I liked Fantasy, hell, I played it for over a decade at this point, so I feel I've been pretty damn invested in it (had 6000pts in Empire, Chaos Warriors and Orcs & Goblins EACH in that time period), but I'm finally coming to the realization there are other games out there. 40K didn't end fantasy for me, the other gaming companies did it for me. I recommend anyone try KoW if they are having the same complaints we did with fantasy.

Sadly my fantasy armies are sitting in the glass case, not being played.. The only battles they see now are dnd encounters lol..

There seems to be somewhat of a dichotomy between what one sees/reads and what people are reporting locally. I have heard and read much disgruntlement about Fantasy 8th Ed and how it has killed a particular local scene and not being played at someone's FLGS any more but then I ran a poll here on Dakka about people's favourite edition and 8th was by far and away voted the best. So, go figure. Like anything, I suspect people are extrapolating what their local Fantasy scene popularity is to a global level. Like anything, it will have pockets of popularity as well as pockets of unpopularity.

Officially speaking, I think recently Warmachine pushed Fantasy into third place in the league table of most played war games, in the USA at any rate.

Agreed, I would probably play Warmachine before I played Fantasy

6th edition 40k was the final nail in the coffin for 40k in my area. Ive only gotten 2 games of 6th since it was released.

This has lead to an influx of 40k players swapping over to WHFB however I am not sure if this because they didnt like the rule changes or simply because they decided to harden up and play a real game.

 Jubear wrote:
This has lead to an influx of 40k players swapping over to WHFB however I am not sure if this because they didnt like the rule changes or simply because they decided to harden up and play a real game.

I'm intrigued, tell me more about how Fantasy is a "real game" and 40k isn't.

A slew of long-time 40k players (myself included) started a fantasy escalation league near the beginning of the year. There is a lot of fantasy played at the store now.

Did anyone see this tidbit from the latest Chapterhouse case depositions?

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/09/legalwatch-games-workshop-vs-chs.html

Seems to indicate that a couple of years back, in the dying days of 7th edition, 40k was roughly twice as popular as WFB.

Whether 8th improved this situation or not, I'm not sure. I have heard conflicting reports and much seems to depend on your local scene.

8th ed killed fantasy. It was at its hight at 6th ed I think. 7th ed just nerfbatted magic but everything was more or less similar. 8th ed did a complete 180 while taking LSD and snorting cocaine from a warpstone covered table...

In my area, fantasy has never been strong. I have seen fantasy games played twice and talk of starting a fantasy group once (which went nowhere), in the 4ish years I have been going to my FLGS. I think one of those games was on the release of 8th edition, and I haven't seen a game since. The store still carries an extensive stock of fantasy, and it does seem to sell, so I guess in my area most of the fantasy people play at home.

More people have played 8th ed fantasy at my gaming club than ever played 7th as many prefer it.

Unfortunately 8th Edition killed Fantasy in my area also. No more big tournaments or even pick-up games around here.

WHFB is huge here. We have 2 days a week devoted to it at the LGS. If nothing else 8th ED made it bigger.

As I said: "the jury's out on whether 8th ed. increased the size of the game or not. It was the marmite of WFB editions...

It seems to have irritated some sections of the population to the point of rage-quitting, yet it has seemed to have brought others back into the game who had either left or never played before. More so than with many previous editions changes before it. Or maybe just the internet, and particularly the Warhammer podcast scene, were less developed back then.

Certainly it is a very different "style" than 7th. Whether that is a good or a bad thing depends on what type of person you are and what style of games you enjoy, I guess.

In the past, local tournaments would get 30-40 people. The one last weekend had 6.

I think people are wising up to the fact that the new rules are just an engine for model sales rather than an improved game.

 lucasbuffalo wrote:
There's always some one complaining about and quitting some game on these forums, and that's not this post. This post is about the sharp decline in Warhammer FB players and traders. When I joined Dakka, there seemed to be a good amount of both fantasy and 40k players. It was easy for me to trade a fantasy army to 40k and back again on numerous occasions. Now, it seems like every trade is fantasy models looking for 40k. Has it always been this way and I was just fortunate in the past to find fair trades, or is there an exodus from WHFB? I personally am currently trying to trade 2 decent sized fantasy armies, and am even offering to sell them at half of retail and I'm having no luck (and these are mostly unpainted, some un-assembled models! I for one am not leaving fantasy, and am merelyy trying to part with some extra armies as I have settled in with my two favorite armies, but are a lot of people leaving the hobby? I'm just looking for some information. Thanks all

During events like a new edition release, this is standard action. There is also the issue of the cheaper priced alternatives and more game choices that are blatently telling.

GW is not and has never been "The Hobby". That crap was some sort of propaganda gone wrong on them from sometime when they were at the top of the heap.


Bottom line for them, is that they are now just another fella. people have other things that they are doing that they do not want to spend over $1,000 for an army.

It sucks for me. I just started playing dwarfs in fantasy and the store I currently go to is at the moment, practically 40k exclusive. I know there are two or three warhammer players, but not enough. I know the main reason for this is this tournament thing going on for 40k in the store, and I've been trying to convince the manager to start one for warhammer as well. The way the tournament was designed, was to slowly build up in point sizes until boom. Army.

 Phototoxin wrote:
8th ed killed fantasy. It was at its hight at 6th ed I think. 7th ed just nerfbatted magic but everything was more or less similar. 8th ed did a complete 180 while taking LSD and snorting cocaine from a warpstone covered table...

Except for the horrible three (VC, DE, DoC) Who pretty much killed it in my area for fantasy because nobody wanted to play any of those lists.

I find it amusing you say its because people can see through the rulesbook as a model sales device.

The latest 6E rulebook for 40k is so blatant as a model sales device its hurts.

Flyers are OP for a reason, Terrain is a major factor of the game... Allies and the 2nd FOC are due to model sales etc etc...

That means by your reckoning 6E will fall off sharply in the near future as players get disillusioned at the corporate greed of GW. I think that is happening regardless of WHFBr 40K... People are at the tipping point with GW.

Warhammer Fantasy = that game that I'll begrudgingly play if there's no-one around that wants to play Kings of War instead.

40k 6th edition = That game that I can't even be bothered to relearn as it is a 200-page tome of hideous overcomplexity and all the codexes are out of date.

I might pick up an Eldar army for old time's sake (assuming Matt Ward doesn't get paid to take a dump all over their background), but that's going to be the full extent of my dealings with GW miniatures in future... if they actually bother to getting around to giving a non-SPEESH MAHREENS codex a slight bit of attention (current codex is freaking mid 4th edition, and we'll probably be mid-6th before they get anything).

I see 40K as the gateway drug to WFB. I'm not saying one's better than the other - I like bits and bobs from each - but it's fairly obvious that 40K is the more universally played game.

They won't let WFB die though and in what, two years or so, a new starter set and rulebook will come out and it'll be ubiquitous for a while. I only started WFB because 8th and IoB put it on my radar after growing up believing it was similar to Necromunda or Blood Bowl in scope.

WHFB is dying in my region. Warmachine has taken it's place.

The opposite is true also though, the last WFB edition basically wiped out all 40k at my local for months, now a new 40k edition is out, WFB is effectively dead for months.

It eventually balances out now that the cores are set the only thing that will flux the number of gamers is people either getting or waiting on a new codex or armybook.

However after the last edition of Fantasy I'll happily admit I've not played much, maybe 9-10 games of fantasy, as it doesn't grip me as much as 40k does and the fact that with Fantasy I've never been able to find a army I'm happy with.

Warmachine has beat the snot out of fantasy in my area. We have a few guys that play fantasy, but mainly because they already have armies.

Only reason I play 40k anymore is because I don't like fantasy styled games, and 40k is the only scifi game around here with a good following aside from infinity, and I really dislike their models.

Dust is getting quite a bit of a following, and flames of war is popular, so if 40k ever died down I know where I would go. Still, its a shame there aren't any other real alternatives for sci fi stuff around here.

No idea, but honestly since you've joined I've picked up a Fantasy army and am in the process of planning a second. If it makes you feel any better. Fantasy had never had a strong following around here, we've got like 3 players total.

Milisim wrote:I find it amusing you say its because people can see through the rulesbook as a model sales device.

The latest 6E rulebook for 40k is so blatant as a model sales device its hurts.

Flyers are OP for a reason, Terrain is a major factor of the game... Allies and the 2nd FOC are due to model sales etc etc...

Definitely.

In a normal game, you get a new edition when a print run sells out, or when game development has improved and it's time to update the rules with the improvements, any errata that has been issues, etc.,. GW puts out a new edition not with any mind towards improvement, but merely change for change's sake so they can sell different models to their existing customer base. The fact that the codexes are all out of date and that 6th is basically compatible with 3rd through 5th shows that they're not actually make a new edition, they're just tweaking things to sell models by making something the new optimal choice.

With WFB it was even more blatant with the hordes rule and the text about average game sizes pushing up the points size even further.

That means by your reckoning 6E will fall off sharply in the near future as players get disillusioned at the corporate greed of GW. I think that is happening regardless of WHFBr 40K... People are at the tipping point with GW.

People are at a tipping point. GW has priced their stuff so that people will get in with a starter but then can't really complete a full sized army unless they're a life long gamer. It's just too much money. And with WFB's higher model count, the tipping comes earlier.

frozenwastes wrote:

That means by your reckoning 6E will fall off sharply in the near future as players get disillusioned at the corporate greed of GW. I think that is happening regardless of WHFBr 40K... People are at the tipping point with GW.

People are at a tipping point. GW has priced their stuff so that people will get in with a starter but then can't really complete a full sized army unless they're a life long gamer. It's just too much money. And with WFB's higher model count, the tipping comes earlier.

I remember the first time I saw a fantasy game. Made collecting foot guard look like a bargain.

I don't know how people can afford to play fantasy. An orks army must cost as much as a small car.

 Milisim wrote:
I find it amusing you say its because people can see through the rulesbook as a model sales device.

The latest 6E rulebook for 40k is so blatant as a model sales device its hurts.

Flyers are OP for a reason, Terrain is a major factor of the game... Allies and the 2nd FOC are due to model sales etc etc...

I find it amusing how regardless of what GW does, it's a money grab. When Allies were discontinued, it was a money grab, when they are allowed again, it's a money grab...

As I see it, it was 5th Edition 40k which began decline of Fantasy. Back in the day, WHFB players regularly mocked stupid, no-tactics 40k. Then 5th edition 40k rolled in, Fantasy players began to switch over, particularly because army balance was much better in 40k.

8th ruined fantasy for me and there has been a lot of forum discontent about it. I have also seen a lot less games being played.

Anecdotal evidence of course but its a commonyl repeated story.

40K has been outselling fntasy for years.

I think WHFB is just too expensive and laborous to start for most players. It seems existing WHFB players prefer pretty large games, for a newbie to get to same level requires very large investment in both money and painting. In addition GW "package deals" like Battalions have got steadily worse in value for money, making it even more expensive than before to field a large army. Some people buy Mantic figs for Fantasy line infantry.

Someone mentioned aesthetics. IMHO, Fantasy line has become too toylike, too exaggarated. There are still great models released every now and then, but many are more like cartoonish rather than grimdark. 'Eavy Metal paintjobs, which tend to be very bright with exaggarated highlights, don't help the image.

In my area 8th injected a new breath of life into fantasy, and a lot of lapsed players got back into it, and new players took it up. I think its very much a case of different areas have different reactions based on the prevailing type of players - most of our lot are more into campaign weekends (like the ones run by Tempus Fugitives) than tournaments for example, so the greater emphasis on narrative, spectacle and 'cool stuff' suits us better than 7th's more tournament oriented ruleset.

I know its anecdotal, but when I went for an interview for a GW studio job a while ago I got the distinct impression from chatting to people there that 8th was a considerable success financially for them - the number of new and returning players far outweighed the number who ragequit.

From what I have seen locally is fantasy attracts older players. These guys n girls are likley going to have their own house with their own beers and would rather game at home.

Both my wife and I started fantasy at the start of the year and enjoy it. I hadn't played it for a long time, last starter set I had was elves vs orcs where each side had cardboard cutouts for monsters and warmachines

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

frozenwastes wrote:

That means by your reckoning 6E will fall off sharply in the near future as players get disillusioned at the corporate greed of GW. I think that is happening regardless of WHFBr 40K... People are at the tipping point with GW.

People are at a tipping point. GW has priced their stuff so that people will get in with a starter but then can't really complete a full sized army unless they're a life long gamer. It's just too much money. And with WFB's higher model count, the tipping comes earlier.

I remember the first time I saw a fantasy game. Made collecting foot guard look like a bargain.

I don't know how people can afford to play fantasy. An orks army must cost as much as a small car.

Thing is, Fantasy you can get into for most factions by buying a couple battleforces and a character or two. Generally about $400 at Canadian retail prices. Considering I spent that much money on a bunch of Identical vehicles in 40k, I would rather play fantasy, where every grunt is unique.

The simple fact is that Fantasy has lagged in sales behind 40K since Rogue Trader was released in the last 1980's.

That being said, WHFB is stronger in the North Metro Atlanta area now than it has been in the last 10 years. When I first moved here, you could go months at a time without even seeing an advertisement for a tournament or seeing a single game being played. Now, tournaments are fairly regular, and there are people playing several times a week.

Different areas have different demographics.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Palindrome wrote:

40K has been outselling fntasy for years.

40K has been outselling Fantasy for Decades, more accurately.

8th made fantasy more popular around in my area really. And we lost some less pleasant players when it came so a win win situation

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Warmachine has beat the snot out of fantasy in my area. We have a few guys that play fantasy, but mainly because they already have armies.

Only reason I play 40k anymore is because I don't like fantasy styled games, and 40k is the only scifi game around here with a good following aside from infinity, and I really dislike their models.

Dust is getting quite a bit of a following, and flames of war is popular, so if 40k ever died down I know where I would go. Still, its a shame there aren't any other real alternatives for sci fi stuff around here.

Dust is the opposite here, the manager has put the stuff on clearance, gave me a sad face.
I would star it if someone would play it with me,

I'm making the switch to Fantasy.

I've played 40k for years (though I only played about 3 games of 5th) and used to think Fantasy was stupid.

I didn't like the idea of all the models ranked up (hiding months worth of painting) and all the cash that had to be spent just to make a 2000pt list.

Over the years I've seen a lot of new 40k players... or Space Marine players, rather.

I started buying fantasy rulebooks when the Wood Elves got their newer rulebook. After reading the fluff from fantasy I was sold.

I liked the confirmed timeline. I liked the definitive territories. I liked that the characters had more history than "They killed orks and then eldar and then some chaos stuff and then they were awesome!"

I've got myself a nice Warriors of Chaos army going and I only have 2 friends interested in playing WHFB (Skaven and High Elves... ) but that isn't stopping us from collecting more models.

The only real problem I have with GW is their prices and marketing methods. At least I think it's the marketing methods.

I will NEVER play warmahordes for two basic reasons: The models are ugly as all gak (imho) and the "cards" (I'll just lose them).

GW sells me good looking models. To me, the models make the game.

There are no other companies that produce models that I'd be interested in painting (with the exception of a few reaper models... and some Confrontation.

I don't spend a lot of time at the FLGS these days, but when I pop in to stare at stuff I want to waste my paycheck on I see a lot of Warmahordes junk on the gaming tables.

I love 40k but frankly I'm probably gonna paint through most of 6th ed. If there is one thing GW has taught me, it's patience.

The local WHFB scene seems to be done fine, although there is a bit of a schism between comp and no-comp players on the national level. I did hear that the retailers at the latest Hyperion (an organization for "fantastic free time pursuits" in Norway) complained that sales of WHFB has fallen dramatically in the last year, though, to the extent that many of the smaller shops and the webshops have stopped taking in goods as they can't sell it.

When I used to play WHFB, we never played at the store. We didn't get to play that often, so when we did play, it was all day. It never felt right using a table at the store for that many hours (3 player 3k+ pts can take awhile) when we could just play at someone's house.

What I want to see is a new run of support for Warhammer Skirmish/Warbands. I wound up spending a few months converting all the old skirmish scenarios to Ganesha Games' Song of Blades and Heroes so we can keep playing in a more balanced/supported way.

http://theback40k.blogspot.com/2012/09/interesting-trends-in-40k-gaming.html

Good read overall. Another way of data mining information. The url fits in here since it does some tracking of WHFB.

If I'm not wholly convinced of the methodology behind them, those are still some interesting figures, and the comparisons with other games reinforce the figures released by US distributors Diamond, who recently reported that Warmachine recently overtook Warhammer Fantasy as the second most popular wargame sold through hobby stores (behind 40k, naturally).

GW's persistently-falling sales volumes look all the more embarassing in light of Diamond's reports that the hobby games sector (i.e. wargames, boardgames, CCGs and RPGs) is booming, having grown 20% in 2011, and being projected to do the same this year.

Food for thought, anyway.

 English Assassin wrote:
If I'm not wholly convinced of the methodology behind them, those are still some interesting figures, and the comparisons with other games reinforce the figures released by US distributors Diamond, who recently reported that Warmachine recently overtook Warhammer Fantasy as the second most popular wargame sold through hobby stores (behind 40k, naturally).

GW's persistently-falling sales volumes look all the more embarassing in light of Diamond's reports that the hobby games sector (i.e. wargames, boardgames, CCGs and RPGs) is booming, having grown 20% in 2011, and being projected to do the same this year.

Food for thought, anyway.

Agreed. Data mining is something that Games Workshop can not hide. If you find enough information from various sources that coincides in what your looking for you can make a calculated assessment when you are investing money (and time) into something. That is what I do.

Daston wrote:
From what I have seen locally is fantasy attracts older players. These guys n girls are likley going to have their own house with their own beers and would rather game at home.

Both my wife and I started fantasy at the start of the year and enjoy it. I hadn't played it for a long time, last starter set I had was elves vs orcs where each side had cardboard cutouts for monsters and warmachines

I agree with this. Having played both for a long time, Fantasy is and has always been a better "game" with better models. It's more random, more fun and MANY less of TFG's playing it. To me, as an older gamer (30's) I don't want to play against power gamers. I game to have fun, I don't want to buy 3 doom scythes and 4 night scythes and 40 warriors who auto glance on 6 and just rolling dice and making someone upset.

I think the real reason for WH's decline isn't the rules, it's the fact that GW cares more about recruiting new people into the hobby who'll spend $1000 in their first year building armies vs. old vets who spend $200 a year in maintaining their hobby. Because they want to recruit new young people, they focus on the game that has the most explosions, the most violence and the one that is easier to learn because tactics aren't that important in 40k. It's mostly about list writing. That's 40k.

I personally prefer a cool game of fantasy with my friends then playing 40k.....it's more tactical, more fun...and MUCH MUCH quicker of a game.

Almostreal is dead on in his/her post.


I began playing alongside the RPG back in the Hogshead days.

The game was more indepth then D and D was, and had a grittier feel to it. I ended my excursion into fantasy after around the late 3d/ early 4th edition. The game had a good conversion to the tabletop, the character of the background was extablished, and the D100 tables were hilarious to the point of awsome.

The game has stability, but some of the changes of the later editions didn't do it justice. Then the fact that GW decided to monkeyspank some armies over others, didn't do anything then develop a FOM mentality that eroded the general flavor of the game.

Vampires, I am looking at you.

almostreal wrote:

I personally prefer a cool game of fantasy with my friends then playing 40k.....it's more tactical, more fun...and MUCH MUCH quicker of a game.

It was but 8th removed most of the tactical elements in favour of huge units, magic and lots of dice rolls. Fantasy was all about maneouver and thats what I enjoyed about it, not any more.

If I want to play a tactical wargame I won't be playing fantasy (nor 40k for that matter).

Problem with these discussions is that they are mostly anecdotal.
The data mining is pretty cool but we don't really know how relevant it is.
The only people who can tell us the answer is GW, and they're not going to!

What people don't ever seem to take into account are the many, many different types of gamers/collectors there are. People play Warhammer for different reasons- and the different players are involved socially in different ways too.

For my own anecdotal evidence: since Warhammer 8th has been released I've been gaming in 2 GW stores in different locations and 2 gaming clubs.
Gaming in the GWs it's obvious that Warhammer has had a damn good two years- loads of people playing and buying new stuff.
At the gaming clubs/independants, there are older guys who have an army or 2 and never change it ever, so never buy new things; and there are tournament players who rarely buy things because they already have the army that works and is most efficient for competetive play. With both these types, the trend has been to hate on 8th and not play Warhammer anymore. My experience is that these are also the ones that come on forums and proclaim it loudly...
In the end though it rarely matters as they don't buy anything anyway so they don't affect the figures- which are the most important thing.

I'll add another vote to the "It's often played by older people" group. At my local GW there are a few younger people who play both Fantasy and 40K (one has just started Vampires, another has Wood Elves and Beastmen) but the majority of players are older.

I went to an even called the Siege of Sussex. It was basically a 40k/Fantasy tournament at Warhammer World between the GW stores along the south coast of England. Looking around there were more older veterans playing Fantasy than younger people.

40K has always been the stronger game where I am, just turn up with an army and you'll get a game.

Hell I started wargaming by playing 40K, but ended up growing dissatisfied with GW.

Picked up Warmachine instead since the steampunk element is what drew me in and I'm maintaining to get regular games in at perhaps once a week.

Looked at WHFB and even picked up one of the rulebook and couple of army books (Empire, Skaven and Wood Elves), though it never came of anything and then new edition(s) came out. Still interested in trying Fantasy but its likely I'll go with Kings of War rather than WHFB.

Considering that GW still stocks LotR I think WHFB is safe for a good long while.

Fantasy has been massively popular at my local gaming club since it's rerelease. In the past few months most people have left it.

I suppose there's only so many times a persons ogre army can be 'withered' away before they pack it in.

They mostly seem to have moved to SAGA and Kings of War

I prefer the models of FB, but will find a 40k game much quicker in my area. Yet I'm more bent to play WM b/c I don'thave to forfeit as much time for a game.

Most likely because 8th is pure dogfeces.

It ruined the entire game for me and thus I sold my WHFB army and invested the cash in more necrons.

I don't want to play Premium Yahtzee GW, thanks.

Fantasy looks awesome. The models are outstanding and the armies are a lot more diverse and original looking than in 40k.

When I see people play 8th edition bough, I lose heart. It seems very random and I have seen he wrong person win too many times.

Dang, this thread sure is attracting the disenfranchised fantasy players. The feeling about 8th I've gotten from the various official polls run on here is that 8th is actually quite well-loved. In this poll > http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/jforum.page?module=posts&action=list&topic_id=308777&viewResults=true , in which 3104 votes were cast, 49% of people "don't play WhFB", 25% "loved" 8th, 12% "liked" 8th, 9% were "meh" about 8th, aand 4% were considering quitting.

It seems that that 4% has happily congregated in this thread. Not that those of us who like 8th mind-it contains the griping.

8th isn't dying in my FLGS. However, because it is so expensive to build an army, it isn't growing. Which is is bummer, because it is a really solid game.

_Tim?

I definitely enjoy it. I think there's been something of a local drop off after 8th, but it appears to be slowly building back up. I think we saw a lot of death star uber units in the first 6 months, but that's begun to fall out of favor.

I find there's a pretty good chunk of maneuver and tactics and don't totally understand the folks who call it a dice off (or Yahtzee). There's generally some pretty good ways to reduce your liability to the uber-spells... and as a pleasant coincidence, that often means moving away from the mega-units that take such a heavy pasting from such spells. And to those who say that there isn't any skill involved- I'm not sure how you explain why the tournament players who were consistently good in 7th edition are still consistently good in 8th.

I recognize that there's plenty of folks who didn't like the changes from 7th to 8th, but I've found 8th to be a more welcoming game that's done a fair job of leveling the huge disparity between the books. At least with my dwarfs I get to do more than roll armor saves and break tests in 8th.

I can't speak to the "Fantasy is dying" argument on a national or global level, but I do think that many players are too quick to draw conclusions from a handful of anecdotes.

I stopped playing Fantasy at the end of 7th, not long after Daemons of Chaos came out. Id already been disillusioned with it, and once that book came out (and numerous local players switched to DoC) I felt like balance had been thrown to the wind. I sold my Bretonnians and mothballed my Dark Elves. Storm of Magic intrigued me, but Hurricane Irene hit and my Dark Elves were literally washed away. I'd like to get back into it, but I really don't have the time to paint up an army. If Warriors of Chaos get something cool this fall, or if Bretonnians ever get redone, I might reconsider.

 Flashman wrote:
suddenly every army had to have big arse monsters.

*Points to a certain rule called 'Steadfast'*

Anyway, Fantasy is, and, sadly, will probably always will be, less popular than 40K. 40K's more competitive, which attracts more competitive players. Guns are cooler than swords, so it attracts little kids. And we all know that GW like little kids. Hence, GW puts out more 40K stuff than Fantasy stuff, which attracts more players. Finally, we get the chicken and the egg. All this creates more players, meaning that for most people, a game of 40K is easier to find than a game of WHFB, which attracts more people to 40K, and you can see the chicken and the egg effect.

Anyway, as has been summed up, 40K will have seen a recent rise in, usage, shall we say, so it's not all bad for Fantasy, this rise is to be expected. There's new rules, so people are playing to get to grips with them and people are flogging stuff that has been nerfed and trying to get hold of stuff that has been made godly. Plus, there's a new Starter Set, so it goes without saying that this will create a lot of 40K trades. And, finally, there's the Horus Heresy stuff on the Horus-izon (get what I did there?) and it being such a pivotal chapter in 40K history, people are very excited.

So, really, everything's as expected. Yes, WHFB isn't as popular as 40K in general, but it was always like that. Yes, WHFB has fallen slightly out of the gamer's eye, but that was to be expected with all the new 40K-ness around. 8th Edition WHFB is widely agreed to be one of the best editions we've seen, and the WHFB metagame is nicely balanced at the moment, so there's no reason why its playerbase will be dropping!

 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:
Dang, this thread sure is attracting the disenfranchised fantasy players. The feeling about 8th I've gotten from the various official polls run on here is that 8th is actually quite well-loved. In this poll > http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/jforum.page?module=posts&action=list&topic_id=308777&viewResults=true , in which 3104 votes were cast, 49% of people "don't play WhFB", 25% "loved" 8th, 12% "liked" 8th, 9% were "meh" about 8th, aand 4% were considering quitting.

It seems that that 4% has happily congregated in this thread. Not that those of us who like 8th mind-it contains the griping.

8th isn't dying in my FLGS. However, because it is so expensive to build an army, it isn't growing. Which is is bummer, because it is a really solid game.

_Tim?

Your poll is unable to represent the proper view as those people who already quit on 8th will hardly bother with the forums about it and thus can't vote at all.

8th just killed any tactics. As a former WoC player, all you did was shove your troops forward and battle your enemy in "Who gets his 6th spell off the fastest?" It was boring as hell and even victories didn't feel good at all. And don't go "Why didn't you just try an all Marauder Horsemen list?" on me - I don't want a game that forces me to cripple myself in order to get a fun game.

Not to mention the loss of monsters. I loved those! It was cool to have a battle with huge monstrous creatures walking around 'n stuff. And 8th? gaks on their head. And what did we got? Fool-proof warmachines and Yahtzee magic. feth that.

WHFB 7th was awesome and a lot of fun, but 8th killed it.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:
Dang, this thread sure is attracting the disenfranchised fantasy players. The feeling about 8th I've gotten from the various official polls run on here is that 8th is actually quite well-loved. In this poll > http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/jforum.page?module=posts&action=list&topic_id=308777&viewResults=true , in which 3104 votes were cast, 49% of people "don't play WhFB", 25% "loved" 8th, 12% "liked" 8th, 9% were "meh" about 8th, aand 4% were considering quitting.

It seems that that 4% has happily congregated in this thread. Not that those of us who like 8th mind-it contains the griping.

8th isn't dying in my FLGS. However, because it is so expensive to build an army, it isn't growing. Which is is bummer, because it is a really solid game.

_Tim?

Your poll is unable to represent the proper view as those people who already quit on 8th will hardly bother with the forums about it and thus can't vote at all.

8th just killed any tactics. As a former WoC player, all you did was shove your troops forward and battle your enemy in "Who gets his 6th spell off the fastest?" It was boring as hell and even victories didn't feel good at all. And don't go "Why didn't you just try an all Marauder Horsemen list?" on me - I don't want a game that forces me to cripple myself in order to get a fun game.

Not to mention the loss of monsters. I loved those! It was cool to have a battle with huge monstrous creatures walking around 'n stuff. And 8th? gaks on their head. And what did we got? Fool-proof warmachines and Yahtzee magic. feth that.

WHFB 7th was awesome and a lot of fun, but 8th killed it.

Honestly, I had these misconceptions about 8th at first, but eventually, if you actually continue playing, you realise how good it is.

You mention how it was all about "Who got their 6th Spell off first". No. Just no. I've played games where I've got Dwellers or Okkam's off three, or maybe even more, times, but have still lost because my opponent was better than me. Similarly, I've won many games where I've had scores of models fall to Purple Sun or whatever. You say you were a WoC player, and you just shoved your troops forward. Well, that sounds like a bad way to play if you ask me. Sounds like you had only a few units of many models and relied on them kicking the crap out of everyone in combat. Well, such an army is just asking to get pasted by '6th' Spells.

And this brings me nicely onto how 8th Edition balances out. At first glance, large units of models (i.e. deathstars) seem to be king, with the Step Up, Horde and Steadfast rules giving them a massive advantage. However, running such units comes at a risk: there's a high risk of losing half those models to a '6th' spell. Deathstars are why such spells exist. Dwellers might kill half your unit, but if your unit comprises of 20 models, it's not so bad. And you go on about how tactics have been removed. Well, you've kinda contradicted yourself there, since the Magic Phase is one of the most tactical phases around. You're not going to be able to stop all your opponent's spells so you've got to make sacrifices and save your dice for spells that will really hurt. On the other hand, when it's your phase, you know your opponent will be trying to do this, so you have to outsmart him. Get him to use his dice on a spell he thinks will be pivotal, but really, you've still got an ace up your sleeve. On top of that, you have to prepare for every eventuality in the Magic Phase. You can't rely on half your army being buffed by Magic, because you might roll snake-eyes for the Winds of Magic. Similarly, you can't rely on weathering your opponents phase because he might roll a double 6 and get every spell in his arsenal off. Yes, Magic is a massive threat and a big part of the game, but it's not as game-breaking as you make out.

Now onto Monsters. And, here, I partly agree with you. I've always said that the only way to make 8th perfect would be to say that Monsters count as having a certain number of ranks for determining steadfast, perhaps with it being dependant on the number of models that the Monster has eaten. Here though, you can at least see that GW has tried to do something to rectify the problem with Thunderstomp. Sadly, it doesn't quite work out. That said though, there's still the good ol' hammer and anvil tactic, combining a Monster with a large unit of infantry to kill a bunch of your enemy and mitigate their Steadfast as well. It doesn't always work out, but nothing ever does anyway. There's the issue of Warmachines, yes, but it's not as bad as people make out. Most armies have good Warmachine hunters that can be used to make sure your enemies never get a shot off, and many monsters have the Fly Special Rule, meaning they can hide until all Warmachines have been taken out and then enter the fray. Those that don't have Fly often have Swiftstride, again, helping them get into combat quickly. And even if a Monster does get hit by a Warmachine, it's not actually that bad. Because of a Monster's high compliment of wounds, your opponent will have to roll high on his D6 to one-shot the Monster. Furthermore, there's a lot of Monsters out there with 7 or more Wounds and a lot of Warmachines that inflict less than D6 hits.

In regards to my area, 8th ed of WHFB has basically died. We see maybe 1 game a month between the same two guys for my area. We have even stopped really bothering to hold the tourneys here as no one attends it anymore.

8th from general opinion is that it is now over complicated and boring to tears.

I just find that 8th is boring to play. Combat blocks, even if there is a bit of manouvering involved, are still combat blocks that sit there and fight for the majority of the game. I find that even playing 6th 40k is boring. It clearly favors shooting. Kinda doesn't help that my second game ever of it was against a Dark Eldar player that had more shooting than I care to think of. It turned into roll dice and see how many wounds, if any, the lads take.

Hi folks.
Generalisation alert!

40k has been 'child focused' for a while now.And as GW plc are in the buisness of selling toy soldiers to children, 40k gets the lions share of the resources.

WHFB, focusing a bit more on tactics than 40k.Tended to attract older gamers that naturaly progess to tactical loading over heavy strategic focus.

So to remidy the 'lack of new blood' in WHFB, they put in the factor that made 40k popular with younger players!
Which 'killed the game ' for those gamers who prefer a higher tactical focus than 40k esk games.

But it obvuiosly attracted some new blood.
And older gamers have now found KoW, AoA and other 28mm fantasy games that are more tactical than 8th ed WHFB, and definatley more suited to them than 40k.

New gamers are attracted by asthetics , (cool looking models and background.)
Veteran gamers stick around because of the solid rules and great gamplay.

This is probably why GW plc is STILL loosing sales volumes...

Honestly, I don't see how people come across this major gripe that "Big Units have killed manoeuvering, and other such tactical moves".

To be honest, it's closer to the opposite. Yes, if your army comprises of two large deathstarts, you won't be doing much manoeuvering, but you're not forced to take large units. There's a toss up between taking deathstars and resigning yourself to be almost certainly outmanoeuvered, or vice versa. There's tactical choices before the game even begins. On top of that, you have to react to what you come up against, since you're pretty much equally likely to come up against deathstars as you are a more MSU approach. I didn't play any where near as much in 7th, but from what I gather, almost every army you saw was more MSU style, meaning you could be pretty sure you'd be up against that, which reduces the tactical descisions you'll have to make.

There's also the many tactics you can employ to deal with deathstars, most notably redirecting. It works fantastically and proves that clever tactics can overcome these large units that everyone loses sleep over.

both the games are simple, fantasy always was the more in depth and now its not, they sucked the individuality out of the game, and I go to great lengths to make an army that is unique, but problem there is they always get destroyed because that's not what the game is about
before there was more wiggle room, no so anymore
I didn't care for 7th either because of how unbalanced the game had become
magic is so random and I rarely get a spell off (about once every 2-3 games)
i love the models, but the game has become just bad to me, unfun and I don't enjoy it anymore
i gave fantasy a chance, i wanted to like it
the new ed of 40k i didn't bother with, i read that and shook my head (that and 40k is half space marines, an army i really dislike)
at least fantasy doesn't have half its army as one type of guys

 The Shadow wrote:
Honestly, I don't see how people come across this major gripe that "Big Units have killed manoeuvering, and other such tactical moves".

The rules that allowed WHFB to be a game of movement have either been removed or rendered all but useless. March blocking, redirecting and flank charges are now a shadow of their former selves.

I ran big blocks in 7 (I played Night Goblins) so I don't count large units as a hinderance, even if it was a cynical ploy on the part of GW.

8th ed kicks ass if you ask me, and its hardly dying in NZ if you ask me. Most tournaments see at the very least 25+ people which I think is fairly healthy.

With the reason influx of 6th ed 40k (which IMO is just horrible and the new rules makes my eyes bleed) no wonder the numbers might be down in some places.

I don't believe Fantasy is dying. Sure 40k has new rules now, so a drop in sales and interest is expected, but even in 8th edition, WHFB is still a better gaming system than 40k. I will agree with some of the posters that it is quite more expensive to raise a proper Fantasy army than a 40k one. That is why I see many people having 2-3 40k armies but only 1 Fantasy. I also don't like some of the changes in 8th (not everyone has to have huge monsters GW, give us a break) but overall it is still my main game. WHAAAGH!

By the way I have to admit I haven't played any 40k games in 6th edition yet, so I cannot do a comparison, but they did take a whole bunch of rules from Fantasy and adapted them for 40k (Overwatch, Challenges etc)

Palindrome wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
Honestly, I don't see how people come across this major gripe that "Big Units have killed manoeuvering, and other such tactical moves".

The rules that allowed WHFB to be a game of movement have either been removed or rendered all but useless. March blocking, redirecting and flank charges are now a shadow of their former selves.

I ran big blocks in 7 (I played Night Goblins) so I don't count large units as a hinderance, even if it was a cynical ploy on the part of GW.

Seems like you still need to figure out how amazingly superior "quick-reform" and "after-combat-reforms" actually are.

Some armies like Lizardmen, Darkelves or Chaosdwarves can field whole armies of SUPER mobile units, monsters, flying characters and whatsnot.

8th allows more quick and flexible movements than ANY other warhammer fantasy edition before.

Thats your own units though, you can't have any real effect on enemy units.

I am playing WHFB now, I was not a couple years back; it's obviously doing better now.

 Sigvatr wrote:

WHFB 7th was awesome and a lot of fun, but 8th killed it.

I have to totally disagree with that part of your quote. I've played WHFB since 3rd edition. I quit playing in 6th edition. I dabbled in 7th and found it to be boring, flat, uninteresting and just plain not fun.

While 8th edition isn't perfect, it certainly did address many things that I disliked about WHFB ever since I started playing it about 1986.

In my personal experience with local players who have quit because of 8th edition, the majority of them don't like how their style of play from 7th edition is not compatible with 8th edition, and they're not interested in trying to learn a different style of play. For example, the last such person I talked with complained about how some of the #6 spells can kill an entire unit. He had been a DE player who liked to run a huge, buffed up 20+ unit of Cold One Knights with associated heroes attached. He apparently wasn't interested in not being able to rule the table with his deathstar unit anymore.

RoninXiC wrote:

Palindrome wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
Honestly, I don't see how people come across this major gripe that "Big Units have killed manoeuvering, and other such tactical moves".

The rules that allowed WHFB to be a game of movement have either been removed or rendered all but useless. March blocking, redirecting and flank charges are now a shadow of their former selves.

I ran big blocks in 7 (I played Night Goblins) so I don't count large units as a hinderance, even if it was a cynical ploy on the part of GW.

Seems like you still need to figure out how amazingly superior "quick-reform" and "after-combat-reforms" actually are.

Some armies like Lizardmen, Darkelves or Chaosdwarves can field whole armies of SUPER mobile units, monsters, flying characters and whatsnot.

8th allows more quick and flexible movements than ANY other warhammer fantasy edition before.

Seems like you still need to fig- ... Hey, wait a minute, that was what I was going to say! But seriously, yes, QFT!

Palindrome wrote:Thats your own units though, you can't have any real effect on enemy units.

Well, yes you can. I'll list the three things you mentioned before:

March Blocking - Ok, yes, March Blocking has been nerfed a bit in 8th. But you (and you're not the only one) go on about it being a 'tactical manoeuver'. But, really, was it? Basically, you got a unit of Harpies/Eagles/Equivalent and plonked it over behind your enemies lines first chance you got. March block done. Pat yourself on the back. Think about it, how much thought actually goes into that 'tactical manoeuver'?

Redirecting - Redirecting is still a valid tactic. The Feigned Flight rule allows Redirecting to work like a charm, since there's a high chance that, when your redirectors flee, they can rally, reform and then be able to do the exact same thing again straight away.

Flank Charges - Flank Charges are still pretty damn useful. I can't remember the exact rules on them in 7th, but nowadays it gives you the +1 Combat res and, most of the time, you'll be able to disrupt them, denying them any extra combat res from rank bonuses. Okay, it doesn't mitigate Steadfast, which'd be nice, but I've talked about how to do just that earlier on. Flank Charges are still very, very handy, and positioning units to line up one is an excellent tactic.

Palindrome wrote:
Thats your own units though, you can't have any real effect on enemy units.

You mean like:
Placing units in front of enemy unitso he is extremely limited in his movement? He could either charge and overrun into no-mans land or stop and move a total of 1".
Redirecting is as strong as it used to be. Place to diverters in front of him and after two failed charges you stole a whole turn from that unit.

Big units never see action in games of competetive players. They are just too unwieldy compared to all the little stuff that you can put into its way.

Marchblocking is still possible btw... not every unit is in the leadership bubble. Just give it a try, it actually works.

 The Shadow wrote:

Well, yes you can. I'll list the three things you mentioned before:

March Blocking - Ok, yes, March Blocking has been nerfed a bit in 8th. But you (and you're not the only one) go on about it being a 'tactical manoeuver'. But, really, was it? Basically, you got a unit of Harpies/Eagles/Equivalent and plonked it over behind your enemies lines first chance you got. March block done. Pat yourself on the back. Think about it, how much thought actually goes into that 'tactical manoeuver'?

Redirecting - Redirecting is still a valid tactic. The Feigned Flight rule allows Redirecting to work like a charm, since there's a high chance that, when your redirectors flee, they can rally, reform and then be able to do the exact same thing again straight away.

Flank Charges - Flank Charges are still pretty damn useful. I can't remember the exact rules on them in 7th, but nowadays it gives you the +1 Combat res and, most of the time, you'll be able to disrupt them, denying them any extra combat res from rank bonuses. Okay, it doesn't mitigate Steadfast, which'd be nice, but I've talked about how to do just that earlier on. Flank Charges are still very, very handy, and positioning units to line up one is an excellent tactic.

They have all been nerfed to the extent that they are hardly worth the effort now.

Palindrome wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

Well, yes you can. I'll list the three things you mentioned before:

March Blocking - Ok, yes, March Blocking has been nerfed a bit in 8th. But you (and you're not the only one) go on about it being a 'tactical manoeuver'. But, really, was it? Basically, you got a unit of Harpies/Eagles/Equivalent and plonked it over behind your enemies lines first chance you got. March block done. Pat yourself on the back. Think about it, how much thought actually goes into that 'tactical manoeuver'?

Redirecting - Redirecting is still a valid tactic. The Feigned Flight rule allows Redirecting to work like a charm, since there's a high chance that, when your redirectors flee, they can rally, reform and then be able to do the exact same thing again straight away.

Flank Charges - Flank Charges are still pretty damn useful. I can't remember the exact rules on them in 7th, but nowadays it gives you the +1 Combat res and, most of the time, you'll be able to disrupt them, denying them any extra combat res from rank bonuses. Okay, it doesn't mitigate Steadfast, which'd be nice, but I've talked about how to do just that earlier on. Flank Charges are still very, very handy, and positioning units to line up one is an excellent tactic.

They have all been nerfed to the extent that they are hardly worth the effort now.

I'll be honest with you Shadow. I thought you had a valid argument, but this just blows it out of the water.

@Palindrome- I'll agree that march blocking is a lot more difficult to pull of now- but I didn't find it to be particularly clever before. As The Shadow said- it was more a matter of who had access to flyers that could drop down out of line of sight.

Redirecting is alive and well. It may take more effort than before, but there are plenty of chaff heavy lists that are working up and down the top tables at tournaments, ensuring the right matchup gets fought at the right time. If you don't think redirecting and chaff have a place anymore, you haven't played against the right players.

Flank charges are still pretty huge- but getting a flank charge isn't necessarily an auto-win. In an evenly matched combat, though, you can earn yourself enough of an advantage to win the ensuing grind, even if you don't bust through in a single turn.

These complaints feel like they're generated from an initial impression that never got past the "try some other things" phase...

I've only played a couple of introductory games of Fantasy and it didn't seem like the game for me. After playing GW games for +25 years, for the past few years my GW spend has dropped off now to the point of I only buy their paints.

Due to their high pricing and focus on selling the latest, greatest model instead of the hobby aspects, I've invested in other games systems.

DUST Tactics I find to be one of the best games I've played. The rules are simple, but there are so many tactical aspects to this game that can be explored. Firestorm Armada has now taken off in my area and with Spartan's up comming release of table top 40k size games set in the Firestorm universe, I can see that taking over GW's 40k. I've also recently invested in Sedition Wars and Relic Knights.

Basically, in my area, all of GW games systems are in a major decline, mostly due to their product prices and people are swiftly moving into other games systems that seemingly offer far more value for money, playability, and more importently, fun.

I stopped playing when they started forcing you to take certain percentages of your army as certain troops, then they arbitrarily decided which troops went into which category based off how much money they would make forcing you to buy them.

I used to have a 2000 point Lizardman army that was fun but not cheesy at all - 30 skinks, 15 saurus, 15 temple guard, 4x kroxigors, 2x stegadons and 2x slann (one lowest level, one higher).

This is no longer possible as you need to field at least a giant pile more units to reach the so called "core" level, and you cant take the kroxigors or stegadons as you go over the rare maximum limit etc.

Basically they made my army illegal and told me I had to go buy more models. I'm sorry I have better things to spend my money on now that there are piles of games out there non GW. I would love to get back into Fantasy but similar things happened to all my friends armies as well and we basically all quit at the same time.

 Surloch wrote:
I stopped playing when they started forcing you to take certain percentages of your army as certain troops, then they arbitrarily decided which troops went into which category based off how much money they would make forcing you to buy them.

I used to have a 2000 point Lizardman army that was fun but not cheesy at all - 30 skinks, 15 saurus, 15 temple guard, 4x kroxigors, 2x stegadons and 2x slann (one lowest level, one higher).

This is no longer possible as you need to field at least a giant pile more units to reach the so called "core" level, and you cant take the kroxigors or stegadons as you go over the rare maximum limit etc.

Basically they made my army illegal and told me I had to go buy more models. I'm sorry I have better things to spend my money on now that there are piles of games out there non GW. I would love to get back into Fantasy but similar things happened to all my friends armies as well and we basically all quit at the same time.

The percentage system is the best thing they have ever done for fantasy (or re introduced) Armies like you lizardman army used to piss me off so much back in the day, I want to see big blocks of troops not quaint little units of 15 running around. If you dont want to spend the money or time to make a proper army thats totally fine but its not a fault with the system itself.

I swear nearly every forum is filled with bitter old 7th players who were unable or unwilling to adapt to 8th who no longer seem to play but still frequent warhammer forums to cry and bitch. I play as much for the spectacle of big units marching across the battlefield as I do for the tactical challenge and more models is always a good thing to me.

 Jubear wrote:

The percentage system is the best thing they have ever done for fantasy (or re introduced) Armies like you lizardman army used to piss me off so much back in the day, I want to see big blocks of troops not quaint little units of 15 running around. If you dont want to spend the money or time to make a proper army thats totally fine but its not a fault with the system itself.

Rabble rabble rabble MY OPINION IS RIGHT YOURS IS WRONG WHEN I LIKE THE GAME EVERYTHING IS FINE!

Seriously, you can't be serious about that post. Everything has to be designed after your wishes? Come on now.

Ask skirmishers in 8th what they got out of it. Especially melee skirmishers that now fight uphill vs 1-3 static combat resolution while getting no benefit at all.

Let's all stay calm please people.

Thanks

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Jubear wrote:

The percentage system is the best thing they have ever done for fantasy (or re introduced) Armies like you lizardman army used to piss me off so much back in the day, I want to see big blocks of troops not quaint little units of 15 running around. If you dont want to spend the money or time to make a proper army thats totally fine but its not a fault with the system itself.

Rabble rabble rabble MY OPINION IS RIGHT YOURS IS WRONG WHEN I LIKE THE GAME EVERYTHING IS FINE!

Seriously, you can't be serious about that post. Everything has to be designed after your wishes? Come on now.

Ask skirmishers in 8th what they got out of it. Especially melee skirmishers that now fight uphill vs 1-3 static combat resolution while getting no benefit at all.

I like to see armies that look like armies not a hero on a dragon with a few token units to fill out troops choices... Skirmishes in 8th are fine they behave like skirmishes should why should a few scattered and lightly equiped soldiers be able to tackle a big block of heavy infantry anyway? The role of skirmishes should be to harass big units and slow them down and that exactly what they do. And the game IS totally fine everything has a counter and the army books and more balanced then they have been in years. I have played since 4th edition and I have seen everything from the scouge of hero hammer in 4/5th to the rise of MSU and gross imbalance of 7th (feth you deamons) Many of the complaints I had about 8th have been addressed in newer army books releases (infantry/warmachines have gone up in points) The fact that I enjoy the look of massed ranks of troops on the table is not really any of your business.

I was a big GW/ 40k fan but never got into fantasy 8th edition completley put me off starting and 6th edtion has put me off 40k all of it seems geared to selling not making people enjoy the models they have.

 Jubear wrote:


I like to see armies that look like armies not a hero on a dragon with a few token units to fill out troops choices... Skirmishes in 8th are fine they behave like skirmishes should why should a few scattered and lightly equiped soldiers be able to tackle a big block of heavy infantry anyway? The role of skirmishes should be to harass big units and slow them down and that exactly what they do. And the game IS totally fine everything has a counter and the army books and more balanced then they have been in years. I have played since 4th edition and I have seen everything from the scouge of hero hammer in 4/5th to the rise of MSU and gross imbalance of 7th (feth you deamons) Many of the complaints I had about 8th have been addressed in newer army books releases (infantry/warmachines have gone up in points) The fact that I enjoy the look of massed ranks of troops on the table is not really any of your business.

8th is well balanced? Interesting, you seem to be far more knowledgeable than a huge part of the gaming community then. May thee share thy wisdow with us and may thy light of wisdom fall upon our poor souls. Certainly, I could care less about what you like. What does affect me, however, is when you come out of the blue and justify 8th being better than any other edition just because you like bigger units instead of smaller but more numerous ones. What about those who prefer playing with skirmishing tactics and thus use more numerous, but smaller units? Alas, you don't like it thus they are wrong. You got your opinion of a "good" game, others may have different ideas. Simply accept that it's legitimate to have a different view on certain matters. Yeeesh.

The game is far from fine right now. Magic is way too strong along with warmachines getting a huge overall buff and steadfeast...yeeesh. Certainly, those issues might be solved with new codices but as a rational being, I rather take the game's current iteration into consideration rather than what it might be in 1-2 years.

8th is only about selling more models, it didn't try to balance anything out, it merely took a few imbalances (aka herohammer) and transferred them over (from OP individual heroes to OP big units e.g. skaven slaves not getting Instability). Tactical components that actually required skill / experience such as range-guessing, flanking, redirecting etc. have been removed or have been dumbed-down.

I disagree with all of those now being null in 8th, though, as others stated. Flank charges still are very effective as your enemy can only strick back with the first "rank" and you negative his rank bonusses. The problem is the new, ridicoulously overpowered Steadfeast rule. Flanking with bigger units should always remove Steadfeast given the attacker is big enough. Furthermore, Skirmishers should be more effective at flanking as right now, they do nothing but delivering mere attacks. A wild horde of disorganized yet more flexible units is able to cause a lot of trouble. A unit of sword dancers suddenly appearing in your flank jumping around among your ranks is at least as threatening as...10 Orks in rank and file. At the very least.

I like the fact that 8th changed our local meta aka turned it more towards 40k and my experience goes along with that of many others in this thread. Less WHFB, more 40k. Good.

Oh, lol at all those LotR guys btw, there's rumors they still exist

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Jubear wrote:


I like to see armies that look like armies not a hero on a dragon with a few token units to fill out troops choices... Skirmishes in 8th are fine they behave like skirmishes should why should a few scattered and lightly equiped soldiers be able to tackle a big block of heavy infantry anyway? The role of skirmishes should be to harass big units and slow them down and that exactly what they do. And the game IS totally fine everything has a counter and the army books and more balanced then they have been in years. I have played since 4th edition and I have seen everything from the scouge of hero hammer in 4/5th to the rise of MSU and gross imbalance of 7th (feth you deamons) Many of the complaints I had about 8th have been addressed in newer army books releases (infantry/warmachines have gone up in points) The fact that I enjoy the look of massed ranks of troops on the table is not really any of your business.

8th is well balanced? Interesting, you seem to be far more knowledgeable than a huge part of the gaming community then. May thee share thy wisdow with us and may thy light of wisdom fall upon our poor souls. Certainly, I could care less about what you like. What does affect me, however, is when you come out of the blue and justify 8th being better than any other edition just because you like bigger units instead of smaller but more numerous ones. What about those who prefer playing with skirmishing tactics and thus use more numerous, but smaller units? Alas, you don't like it thus they are wrong. You got your opinion of a "good" game, others may have different ideas. Simply accept that it's legitimate to have a different view on certain matters. Yeeesh.

The game is far from fine right now. Magic is way too strong along with warmachines getting a huge overall buff and steadfeast...yeeesh. Certainly, those issues might be solved with new codices but as a rational being, I rather take the game's current iteration into consideration rather than what it might be in 1-2 years.

8th is only about selling more models, it didn't try to balance anything out, it merely took a few imbalances (aka herohammer) and transferred them over (from OP individual heroes to OP big units e.g. skaven slaves not getting Instability). Tactical components that actually required skill / experience such as range-guessing, flanking, redirecting etc. have been removed or have been dumbed-down.

I disagree with all of those now being null in 8th, though, as others stated. Flank charges still are very effective as your enemy can only strick back with the first "rank" and you negative his rank bonusses. The problem is the new, ridicoulously overpowered Steadfeast rule. Flanking with bigger units should always remove Steadfeast given the attacker is big enough. Furthermore, Skirmishers should be more effective at flanking as right now, they do nothing but delivering mere attacks. A wild horde of disorganized yet more flexible units is able to cause a lot of trouble. A unit of sword dancers suddenly appearing in your flank jumping around among your ranks is at least as threatening as...10 Orks in rank and file. At the very least.

I like the fact that 8th changed our local meta aka turned it more towards 40k and my experience goes along with that of many others in this thread. Less WHFB, more 40k. Good.

Oh, lol at all those LotR guys btw, there's rumors they still exist

Ok I am not trying to sound condescending but I play ALOT and have prolly racked up well over 200 plus games of 8th (not including learning games or intro games) so yes I prolly do know better then alot of the gaming community. Magic is getting less and less powerful with every army book as items etc that generate power dice are becoming a lot rarer and folk working out that if they take a 100 strong unit filled to the brim with heroes etc is just begging to be 6th spelled. As for the new editions being an excuse to sell models well GW are a business not a charity its there job to sell models it always has been and always will be.

Range guessing is not a "skill" that should be valid in a tabletop wargame and can be negated with a notepad and keeping track of your opponents moves (or some maths if you can be bothered) and Sorry I still dont agree that a small bunch of lightly armed skirmishes should be able to achieve much against a shield wall of heavy infantry. And as for MSU its still alive and doing great it simply requires skill and has some real merit in 8th also slaves are fine any block of 50 or so core troops will destroy slaves in one turn of combat I will never understand why folk struggle so badly with them (dont run horde vs slave a slave bus)

Enjoy your 40k with its massive variation of armies (blue marines or red marines or silver marines) and pew pew pew pew pew pew pew FOR THE EMPEROR!!!! (who is a douche) pew pew pew pew pew pew pew.

 Jubear wrote:


Ok I am not trying to sound condescending but I play ALOT and have prolly racked up well over 200 plus games of 8th (not including learning games or intro games) so yes I prolly do know better then alot of the gaming community.

Enjoy your 40k with its massive variation of armies (blue marines or red marines or silver marines) and pew pew pew pew pew pew pew FOR THE EMPEROR!!!! (who is a douche) pew pew pew pew pew pew pew.

Your ignorance and lack of humility is appaling.

And with all due respect (it's just a saying after all), but if you seriously state that any core troops will destroy a block of skaven slaves in a single round of combat, then...well, you have probably played about 2 games, not 200, and just pretend having played more than you actually did. Not to mention that at the same time that you called range guessing not a skill, you explained why it is a skill...but what can one expect from the likes of you :/

See, feel free to enjoy 8th. Nobody stops you from doing so. Keep enforcing your opinions on others, etc....if someone likes getting treated that way, why not, it's not my piece of cake. Keep boasting about stuff you haven't seen / done.

Ok lets have some fun with math hammer 50 slaves vs 50 Empire state troops who we will assume have halbards (never see them with much else)while the slaves are naked (how most folk run them) and both are in bus formation ok Int is not going to matter so lets just ignore that. The state troops will average 4.4 wounds while the slaves average 2.08. The state troops win the fight due to combat res and standard (slaves cant take standards) the slaves do not have steadfast and go boom (always funny). Also how is keeping a journal on your opponents movement a skill related to generalship? I mean Rommel was famed for his ability to eyeball 12" and Napoleon was well know for hanging around the cannons and telling the cres how many inches the enemy cav was away so they could nail them....


And yeah I totally like to brag about spending wayyyy to much time pushing little men around a table its how I get the ladies.

I'm starting fantasy, finally got round to painting my Skull Pass goblins. What really put me off playing fantasy before was the amount of troops you actually need and paying £10 for movement trays.

When 8th came out I went halfsies on 2 sets of the IoB, assembled it all up and played 2 games. I them sold everything immediately.

#1) the game is too random for me
#2) it was obvious right out the gate you PILES of guys
#3) I'm not a fan of any game where those 30 guys you painted up drop like flies or worse eyt are all obliterated in a single moment

The major killer of the game in my area is the cost. New blood is really hard to get invested when it costs as much as it does. 40k has also taken a huge hit in my area because of the costs/power creep/tournaments being hosed.

In my area at least GW has finally achieved their apex and it's easier to get in a Infinity/Malifaux/warmahordes game in then it is a 40k game.

I think BlueDagger sums it up nicely... I've seen similar issues in my area, and a good friend of mine that used to love WFB (and is a really good WFB general!) really can't stand 8th for many of the same reasons listed above.

Well, bad for you.
In Germany we figure out Fantasys problems like years ago and fixed it ourselves.

We actually changed some rules (especially magic) and put restrictions on other things (unitsizes, some magic items, etc). The result is a much better Fantasy for it's less random, more strategic and the armies aren't THAT far away from each other (there obviously are better armies, but the difference is less brutal).

It's your game. Change it if you don't like the rules.

I don't think the rules exist in English, but maybe you can understand some of the German stuff: http://www.tabletopwelt.de/forum/showthread.php?t=139025

Again: If you don't like 8th and don't like putting your own changes into your game, you're missing a huge opportunity.

RoninXiC wrote:
Well, bad for you.
In Germany we figure out Fantasys problems like years ago and fixed it ourselves.

We actually changed some rules (especially magic) and put restrictions on other things (unitsizes, some magic items, etc). The result is a much better Fantasy for it's less random, more strategic and the armies aren't THAT far away from each other (there obviously are better armies, but the difference is less brutal).

It's your game. Change it if you don't like the rules.

I don't think the rules exist in English, but maybe you can understand some of the German stuff: http://www.tabletopwelt.de/forum/showthread.php?t=139025

Again: If you don't like 8th and don't like putting your own changes into your game, you're missing a huge opportunity.

Word. A few simple changes can solve pretty much all the problems of 8th.

1) Allow Steadfast (but not stubborn) to be removed by disruption.

2) Make Spell Resistance work like this: Bonus to ward-save against any spell which causes wounds, flat save which may always be taken against spells which remove whole models (each save preventing one model from being removed), and a single, unit-wide save vs hexes.

So, lets say I've got a unit with a 6+ ward and Magic Resistance 2. They are hit by The Penumbral Pendulum, taking 5 wounds. They get a 6+ Ward, with a +2, making it a 4+ save. Likewise, I have a unit of Ogres with Magic Resistance 2, who are hit by Fireball. They take 3 wounds, and get a 5+ save against each. So this part works as normal.

Then, the Ogres get hit by Purple Sun. Six fail their Initiative Check. Each now must make a save, and on a 5+ the Ogre lives. On anything else, it dies. Note this is despite saves not normally being allowed.

Finally, they are hit by Spirit Leach (my opponent doesn't like them). They get to roll one die, and on a 5+, the spell does nothing.

3) Give Cavalry/Monstrous Cavalry the "Cavalry charge" rule. On a turn they charge, double the number of 5-model ranks they are treated as having. I highly doubt this will hurt large units charged in the front, but it will devastate disrupted units, and allow for easier disruption of other units.

Really like those.

1) should have been included anyway, it's mandatory for actual balance yet it would make people buy less minis due to big units being less effective.

2) Deny The Witch for Fantasy

3) Cavalry further suffers from the charge reaction changes to initative. It's pretty ridiculous when my friend's Bretonnian Knights charge my unit of Chaos Warriors and I get to strike first...imo, cavalry should have ASF. I don't think that the additional attacks are necessary though as most infantry that wants to get in melee comes in smaller numbers or lances thus more ranks isn't that necessary, it's about killing the enemy before he can strike back.

Magic in general is a problem. It's the most deciding factor in games as some lores, especially life, are way overpowered and lead to very boring, luck-based games. If you've ever played a Teclis list, you know what I'm talking of. Same goes for Gatespammers etc. You get lucky and almost won the game. Fun. Gods, Lore of Life...Throne of Vines is just...wow. Just wow...

7th was a lot better magic-wise. Power dice should never be random at all, especially not with magic being so strong.

Alas, this seems to become a suggested rules thread

C.O.M.B.A.T. is a good attempt at getting a re-balance. Some flaws still exist / are created but overall, it works a lot better than vanilla 8th rules, yet is worse than 7th overall.

And guys, let's not even start the magic expansion crap. Storm of Magic is the worst balanced expansion I have ever seen in any sort of game. *shudders*

 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

2) Make Spell Resistance work like this: Bonus to ward-save against any spell which causes wounds, flat save which may always be taken against spells which remove whole models (each save preventing one model from being removed), and a single, unit-wide save vs hexes.

See this trotted out an awful lot in proposed changes. I think it carries unintended consequences, though. Right now, the big spells are a useful check on huge units. If you permit magic resistance against things like final transmutation, than I think all you'd see is one more character/banner/item in the deathstars granting magic resistance.

MetalOxide wrote:
I'm starting fantasy, finally got round to painting my Skull Pass goblins..

Funny..now that you mention it, I have painted tons of Orcs & Goblins but I still haven't gotten around to paint those Skull Pass Goblins...

 Red_Zeke wrote:

 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

2) Make Spell Resistance work like this: Bonus to ward-save against any spell which causes wounds, flat save which may always be taken against spells which remove whole models (each save preventing one model from being removed), and a single, unit-wide save vs hexes.

See this trotted out an awful lot in proposed changes. I think it carries unintended consequences, though. Right now, the big spells are a useful check on huge units. If you permit magic resistance against things like final transmutation, than I think all you'd see is one more character/banner/item in the deathstars granting magic resistance.

You are correct, right now, 6th spells are, along with war machines, the most effective way to take out big units and thus buff to magic defense would directly buff big units again.

That's where the "flanking denies steadfast" part kicks in: big units no longer keep steadfast and are far more likely to lose a battle when being flanked. Thus in order to defeat big units, flanking becomes a lot more important again.

That's where the game should be: instead of having a counter that requires absolutely no skill and is fully relying on luck, you'd get a counter that's harder to pull off yet more effective (as in more reliable to work out).

That certainly is not the spirit of 8th as 8th is all about making the game easier to get into or, bland, dumbing the game down. Thus only proposed rules

 Phototoxin wrote:
8th ed killed fantasy. It was at its hight at 6th ed I think. 7th ed just nerfbatted magic but everything was more or less similar. 8th ed did a complete 180 while taking LSD and snorting cocaine from a warpstone covered table...

basically what 40k is doing now, if they keep up with this 80s gak Im done.

 Ravenous D wrote:

 Phototoxin wrote:
8th ed killed fantasy. It was at its hight at 6th ed I think. 7th ed just nerfbatted magic but everything was more or less similar. 8th ed did a complete 180 while taking LSD and snorting cocaine from a warpstone covered table...

basically what 40k is doing now, if they keep up with this 80s gak Im done.

its a shame, I really loved 6th ed for fantasy, 7th was unplayable and 8th I am on the fence for...I really dislike having to paint so many models even for armies that shouldn't need that many
3rd for 40k was a good ed, 4th was interesting because it brought some armies out of their shells (like old ones, so even though they were old they still functioned well)
5th was when things all went wrong

I don't think that 8th is all that bad, I just don't think it's super fun. When I dropped temporarily, the focus was on combat blocks marching forward killing each other. That just didn't sit well with my fun side. I've been meaning to start up a mobile Wood Elves army to try and have fun with it. Does anybody have a spare Wood Elves book I can buy?

 Rainbow Dash wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:

 Phototoxin wrote:
8th ed killed fantasy. It was at its hight at 6th ed I think. 7th ed just nerfbatted magic but everything was more or less similar. 8th ed did a complete 180 while taking LSD and snorting cocaine from a warpstone covered table...

basically what 40k is doing now, if they keep up with this 80s gak Im done.

its a shame, I really loved 6th ed for fantasy, 7th was unplayable and 8th I am on the fence for...I really dislike having to paint so many models even for armies that shouldn't need that many
3rd for 40k was a good ed, 4th was interesting because it brought some armies out of their shells (like old ones, so even though they were old they still functioned well)
5th was when things all went wrong

If you notice the trend its when GW became more and more concerned about money and less what people wanted. Dont your customers and treat them like and the effect is amazing.

 lucasbuffalo wrote:
There's always some one complaining about and quitting some game on these forums, and that's not this post. This post is about the sharp decline in Warhammer FB players and traders. When I joined Dakka, there seemed to be a good amount of both fantasy and 40k players. It was easy for me to trade a fantasy army to 40k and back again on numerous occasions. Now, it seems like every trade is fantasy models looking for 40k. Has it always been this way and I was just fortunate in the past to find fair trades, or is there an exodus from WHFB? I personally am currently trying to trade 2 decent sized fantasy armies, and am even offering to sell them at half of retail and I'm having no luck (and these are mostly unpainted, some un-assembled models! I for one am not leaving fantasy, and am merelyy trying to part with some extra armies as I have settled in with my two favorite armies, but are a lot of people leaving the hobby? I'm just looking for some information. Thanks all

Blame GW. 8th edition blows. And many people are/have fled the game and no real new ones enter. 8th is akin to 4th edition fantasy, only with dice for magic instead of cards.

 m14 wrote:
I don't think that 8th is all that bad, I just don't think it's super fun. When I dropped temporarily, the focus was on combat blocks marching forward killing each other. That just didn't sit well with my fun side. I've been meaning to start up a mobile Wood Elves army to try and have fun with it. Does anybody have a spare Wood Elves book I can buy?

I have an old orion

carmachu wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:
There's always some one complaining about and quitting some game on these forums, and that's not this post. This post is about the sharp decline in Warhammer FB players and traders. When I joined Dakka, there seemed to be a good amount of both fantasy and 40k players. It was easy for me to trade a fantasy army to 40k and back again on numerous occasions. Now, it seems like every trade is fantasy models looking for 40k. Has it always been this way and I was just fortunate in the past to find fair trades, or is there an exodus from WHFB? I personally am currently trying to trade 2 decent sized fantasy armies, and am even offering to sell them at half of retail and I'm having no luck (and these are mostly unpainted, some un-assembled models! I for one am not leaving fantasy, and am merelyy trying to part with some extra armies as I have settled in with my two favorite armies, but are a lot of people leaving the hobby? I'm just looking for some information. Thanks all

Blame GW. 8th edition blows. And many people are/have fled the game and no real new ones enter. 8th is akin to 4th edition fantasy, only with dice for magic instead of cards.

Our fantasy died around the time of 7th, since several players played Truly Cheesy DE/VC/DoC lists, to the point that everyone just up and quit..then 8th came and people began bringing more out.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

carmachu wrote:

 lucasbuffalo wrote:
There's always some one complaining about and quitting some game on these forums, and that's not this post. This post is about the sharp decline in Warhammer FB players and traders. When I joined Dakka, there seemed to be a good amount of both fantasy and 40k players. It was easy for me to trade a fantasy army to 40k and back again on numerous occasions. Now, it seems like every trade is fantasy models looking for 40k. Has it always been this way and I was just fortunate in the past to find fair trades, or is there an exodus from WHFB? I personally am currently trying to trade 2 decent sized fantasy armies, and am even offering to sell them at half of retail and I'm having no luck (and these are mostly unpainted, some un-assembled models! I for one am not leaving fantasy, and am merelyy trying to part with some extra armies as I have settled in with my two favorite armies, but are a lot of people leaving the hobby? I'm just looking for some information. Thanks all

Blame GW. 8th edition blows. And many people are/have fled the game and no real new ones enter. 8th is akin to 4th edition fantasy, only with dice for magic instead of cards.

Our fantasy died around the time of 7th, since several players played Truly Cheesy DE/VC/DoC lists, to the point that everyone just up and quit..then 8th came and people began bringing more out.

I agree with this sentiment from my local area perspective. During 6th and 7th, there were fewer and fewer Fantasy players. In metropolitan area of over four million people, you would have been lucky to have seen two or three Fantasy tournaments advertised in the whole area over the course of the year by the end of 7th edition. Currently, there's a tournament every month in one location or another in the area.

Its sad that its dead, A painted warhammer force on the table looks way better then most 40k forces.
But im a sucker for dragons so IDK

For some reason, the more 6th edition 40k I play, the more I long to get back to playing Fantasy. The random charge lengths and emphasis on larger infantry mobs makes the games feel more similar than ever to me.

I am fortunate to have a group of players at my FLGS that likes to rotate game systems to keep things interesting. I play 40k, Fantasy, and Warmahordes and each game is fun in it's own way.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Its sad that its dead, A painted warhammer force on the table looks way better then most 40k forces.
But im a sucker for dragons so IDK

I agree. One advantage fantasy has is that the armies a lot more different compared to 40k with its 80% tin can armies...but then again, Necrons still take the cake. My main gripe about Fantasy's forces is that they play incredibly similar and some are just downright boring...WoC is all about shoving your troops forward and letting them get into melee. The end, you win. Support with Tzeentch. Pro level: use marauder horsemen to get rid of war machines.

I can only recommend everyone to play WE / Bretons. Sure, they are not as overpowered as Demons, Dark Elves or the likes, but it's so much more fun to play them Too bad that GW nerfed WE so hard. No other army got hit that hard by 8th :/

/e: Well, Bretons have also been fethed pretty hard except for their OP trebuchets.

Bretonnians are fine, they just lack options. Bretonnian armies work really well if done right, it's just that they don't have any options to vary up the force.

WE play the game of either I'm not going to lose anything and win by ~100 points or I'm going to pick where we fight and I'll beat you there. Dryads are fantastic anyway...

Dryads suffer from the huge nerf skirmishers took in 8th. While their fighting abilities are still good (not more, not less), they suffer from being forced to fight vs. a static combat resolution bonus of 1-3.

Bretonnians were also nerfed hard by the changes to cavalry.

Both armies are very sub-par now, WE arguably being the worst army in 8th.

I've been under the impression Bretonnians are one of the strongest sides for the best tournament players. - Or at least the ones at my club.

Something about Knight "Buses" with the first several ranks having characters in them?

 Compel wrote:
I've been under the impression Bretonnians are one of the strongest sides for the best tournament players. - Or at least the ones at my club.

Something about Knight "Buses" with the first several ranks having characters in them?

Not too scary. Those have the downfall of having a huge flank you can just bump into and even Bret characters can't live up to more powerful characters other factions have access too. Bretonnia's saving grace are their Trebuchets...S5 plates everywhere.

 Jubear wrote:
Napoleon was well know for hanging around the cannons and telling the cres how many inches the enemy cav was away so they could nail them....

Actually Napoleon was an artillery officer so yeah, he did do that. Thanks for playing though.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Really like those.

1) should have been included anyway, it's mandatory for actual balance yet it would make people buy less minis due to big units being less effective.

2) Deny The Witch for Fantasy

3) Cavalry further suffers from the charge reaction changes to initative. It's pretty ridiculous when my friend's Bretonnian Knights charge my unit of Chaos Warriors and I get to strike first...imo, cavalry should have ASF. I don't think that the additional attacks are necessary though as most infantry that wants to get in melee comes in smaller numbers or lances thus more ranks isn't that necessary, it's about killing the enemy before he can strike back.

Magic in general is a problem. It's the most deciding factor in games as some lores, especially life, are way overpowered and lead to very boring, luck-based games. If you've ever played a Teclis list, you know what I'm talking of. Same goes for Gatespammers etc. You get lucky and almost won the game. Fun. Gods, Lore of Life...Throne of Vines is just...wow. Just wow...

7th was a lot better magic-wise. Power dice should never be random at all, especially not with magic being so strong.

Alas, this seems to become a suggested rules thread

C.O.M.B.A.T. is a good attempt at getting a re-balance. Some flaws still exist / are created but overall, it works a lot better than vanilla 8th rules, yet is worse than 7th overall.

And guys, let's not even start the magic expansion crap. Storm of Magic is the worst balanced expansion I have ever seen in any sort of game. *shudders*

See this my problem with GW. Why do I have to balance there game. Other companys do it with out me. Maybe if they had things like play testing, poeple wouldn't have to house rule to make the game work right.

I give my money to the company that think a balanced game is the way to go, not selling more models.

12thRonin wrote:

 Jubear wrote:
Napoleon was well know for hanging around the cannons and telling the cres how many inches the enemy cav was away so they could nail them....

Actually Napoleon was an artillery officer so yeah, he did do that. Thanks for playing though.

What, why sould someone know what the talking about. It's easier to just make stuff up. Right?

Its just because 40K is now very similar to WFB.

Sarcasm detector malfunction...

12thRonin wrote:

Noir wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

12thRonin wrote:

 Jubear wrote:
Napoleon was well know for hanging around the cannons and telling the cres how many inches the enemy cav was away so they could nail them....

Actually Napoleon was an artillery officer so yeah, he did do that. Thanks for playing though.

What, why sould someone know what the talking about. It's easier to just make stuff up. Right?

Well since I just quoted that one part, here's the whole thing where he was trying to be a nutsack.

Ok lets have some fun with math hammer 50 slaves vs 50 Empire state troops who we will assume have halbards (never see them with much else)while the slaves are naked (how most folk run them) and both are in bus formation ok Int is not going to matter so lets just ignore that. The state troops will average 4.4 wounds while the slaves average 2.08. The state troops win the fight due to combat res and standard (slaves cant take standards) the slaves do not have steadfast and go boom (always funny). Also how is keeping a journal on your opponents movement a skill related to generalship? I mean Rommel was famed for his ability to eyeball 12" and Napoleon was well know for hanging around the cannons and telling the cres how many inches the enemy cav was away so they could nail them....

So yeah, he pretty much knows the opposite of what he's talking about....

Damn, I wish there was a sarcasm font.

That's cool. I edited...

I think 8th is still a good game. But this larger unit requirement has been turning a lot of people off, at least in my area.

Hi TechMarine.
If WHFB 8th is a good game , but its expencive to collect a 'proper sized' army.
Then it can not compete with a great game with cheaper minatures, can it?

And that the problem.GW plc dont think they have any competition.

And so 'lackluster rules' and 'expensive minatures' are 'plenty good enough' for the 'loyal fans'.

Hobby distributors are reporting a 10-20% increase in sales of hobby games while GW's revenue is flat and their player base continues to shrink.

WFB is good for lining the pockets of GW's upper management with short term sales through price increases and starter sets to people who will quit before they ever come close to making a proper sized army.

Lanrak wrote:
Hi TechMarine.
If WHFB 8th is a good game , but its expencive to collect a 'proper sized' army.
Then it can not compete with a great game with cheaper minatures, can it?

And that the problem.GW plc dont think they have any competition.

And so 'lackluster rules' and 'expensive minatures' are 'plenty good enough' for the 'loyal fans'.

yeah I don't see good things in ten years, for example, in warhammer's future

Lanrak wrote:
Hi TechMarine.
If WHFB 8th is a good game , but its expencive to collect a 'proper sized' army.
Then it can not compete with a great game with cheaper minatures, can it?

And that the problem.GW plc dont think they have any competition.

And so 'lackluster rules' and 'expensive minatures' are 'plenty good enough' for the 'loyal fans'.

If you enjoy the game's background and the look of the miniatures, it doesn't matter much, does it?

GW's "fans" aren't all rabid fanbois who eat up what the "evil empire" says.

Additionally, while the Warhammer Fantasy community has seen a sharp decline, it's by no means dead. To insinuate that it is dead or dying is a fairly large leap to conclusions.

 Cryonicleech wrote:

Additionally, while the Warhammer Fantasy community has seen a sharp decline, it's by no means dead. To insinuate that it is dead or dying is a fairly large leap to conclusions.

Actually, that is the exact definition of a "dying" community...

almostreal wrote:

I agree with this. Having played both for a long time, Fantasy is and has always been a better "game" with better models. It's more random, more fun and MANY less of TFG's playing it. To me, as an older gamer (30's) I don't want to play against power gamers. I game to have fun, I don't want to buy 3 doom scythes and 4 night scythes and 40 warriors who auto glance on 6 and just rolling dice and making someone upset.

I think the real reason for WH's decline isn't the rules, it's the fact that GW cares more about recruiting new people into the hobby who'll spend $1000 in their first year building armies vs. old vets who spend $200 a year in maintaining their hobby. Because they want to recruit new young people, they focus on the game that has the most explosions, the most violence and the one that is easier to learn because tactics aren't that important in 40k. It's mostly about list writing. That's 40k.

I personally prefer a cool game of fantasy with my friends then playing 40k.....it's more tactical, more fun...and MUCH MUCH quicker of a game.

As someone also has played a long time, I have to disagree with all that. There are PLENTY of TFG in fantasy, you just havent run into them. The skaven spam armies of old, Deamon armies before the nerf and playent of other power gamer type armies.

WH decline might also be bacause, frankly, 8th edition reminds me alot of a rehash of 4th edition fantasy. Except with dice rather then power cards. Because again, in both editions, if you get purple power ultimate power all over again...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jubear wrote:


The percentage system is the best thing they have ever done for fantasy (or re introduced) Armies like you lizardman army used to piss me off so much back in the day, I want to see big blocks of troops not quaint little units of 15 running around. If you dont want to spend the money or time to make a proper army thats totally fine but its not a fault with the system itself.

Not really. We've seen percentage system before in 5th?(sorry memory is foggy). Just like then and now, its not really great becasue all it does is sink points into other areas. Like characters. I've already played hero hammer. Not really liking it again.

I swear nearly every forum is filled with bitter old 7th players who were unable or unwilling to adapt to 8th who no longer seem to play but still frequent warhammer forums to cry and bitch. I play as much for the spectacle of big units marching across the battlefield as I do for the tactical challenge and more models is always a good thing to me.

nWhen you have played every edition since 3rd-ish, there are thinks to like and dislike as things change. And when things change too much, its less fun. I know too many fantasy players that have finally thrown up their hands and walked away because 8th finally screwed up their armies and fun.

The thing is.
I know gamers dont like change much.And every edition of WHFB folks have moaned about the changes.

However, 8th edition apears to have been specificaly written for GW plc prime demoghraphic.
Which is NOT gamers, BTW.

Compared to the 30(?) years GW plc has been messing about with WHFB.

AOA arrived at provable levels of balance and more army lists in 8 years.

KoW arrived at better balance , definition and support in less than 4 years.

And most the WHFB gamers I know tend to drift off towards these other rule sets written for gamers.(Using thier existing armies.)

T

I see a lot of folks on both sides of the debate in this thread extrapolating their personal experiences, or the conditions of their local playing area and assuming that applies worldwide. There's also some "I know a guy who knows a guys who says sales are down". Is there someone who's got an actual link to sales or some kind of number that might prove/disprove this assertion that Warhammer Fantasy is "dying"?

 Rainbow Dash wrote:


yeah I don't see good things in ten years, for example, in warhammer's future

This. As soon as (good) 3d printers become affordable, GW's time is pretty much over.

 Red_Zeke wrote:
I see a lot of folks on both sides of the debate in this thread extrapolating their personal experiences, or the conditions of their local playing area and assuming that applies worldwide. There's also some "I know a guy who knows a guys who says sales are down". Is there someone who's got an actual link to sales or some kind of number that might prove/disprove this assertion that Warhammer Fantasy is "dying"?

You are unlikely to ever see any actual sales figures short of rumours, leaks and conjecture. GW are notoriously guarded about things like that. What is true and has been leaked/reported in the past, is that Warmachine/Hordes is more popular (in the USA anyway) than WHFB - with 40K taking top spot. Of course, that says nothing about sales figures and 'more popular' is a very nebulous term.

IcV2's " Non-Collectible Miniature Lines" quarterly analysis is not based on popularity. They are based on, as they say, interviews with retailers, distributors and manufacturers on sales volume. They are also exclusively US-based. The list has been 40k-WM-WHFB-Hordes-another game (it cycles) for years, with WHFB briefly on the bottom (under Dark Heaven) back in 2008 before going up to #3 in 2009...before 8th was released.

It would be a good idea, I think, for them to group WM and H together - nobody plays them exclusively any more these days, anyway.

Nobody knows if they interviews GW about their sales volume. Of course, indies are the real backbone of sales in the US anyway, so it might not matter as much.

In the area i'm at GW WFB field has been in a slow decline since the intro of 8th edition. Some people are attributing this to WFB 8th edition, initially I did. But with the newly revamp'd 40k i'm noticing a interesting fact.

Competitors of GW are just flat out putting out a product that was not previous around, and people are learning due to the internet that there is just more out there then GW.

Look at the other ranges and products that are growing more and more popular:

I'm in the SJ - Philadelphia area.

Warmachine - Hordes has a huge developing growth. People are loving the game. Its more driven by the working man - women IE those people who only get a few hours and want to get multiple game in, and don't want to lug or paint the huge amount of GW models. So they find other ranges.

Flames of War - Lots of people are loving this game. I understand its fun, and people seem to love it win or lose. That's refreshing. Plus there's something about pushing around all those little tanks, plus is based in history, so you get those guys who love history in the game easily.

Dust - I watched my first game of Dust. Wow was that game simple compared to GW - WMHD. For the younger gamers, why even start a GW game, when this game is out there and has funny, neat minatures which grab kids attention?

Bottom line, i went from thinking WFB 8th sucked, to realizing there just is more out there. I re-read 8th and started tinkering again. Speaking with guys in my area, they are all doing the same. Just exploring what is out there and finding what works for them. GW WFB will probably come back around... but not as strong as it was.

Not really. We've seen percentage system before in 5th?(sorry memory is foggy). Just like then and now, its not really great becasue all it does is sink points into other areas. Like characters. I've already played hero hammer. Not really liking it again.

This is something that's always confused me, how is 8th less like 7th when it comes to characters? I only played DE, and VC a lot before, and I remember VC taking very minimum core troops (just the required amount), and than putting everything into their characters, DE took upwards of 1-4 casters/masters/lord, with hydra's and repeaters filling out the rest of the points.

How is 7th less herohammer than 8th?

 filbert wrote:

 Red_Zeke wrote:
I see a lot of folks on both sides of the debate in this thread extrapolating their personal experiences, or the conditions of their local playing area and assuming that applies worldwide. There's also some "I know a guy who knows a guys who says sales are down". Is there someone who's got an actual link to sales or some kind of number that might prove/disprove this assertion that Warhammer Fantasy is "dying"?

You are unlikely to ever see any actual sales figures short of rumours, leaks and conjecture. GW are notoriously guarded about things like that. What is true and has been leaked/reported in the past, is that Warmachine/Hordes is more popular (in the USA anyway) than WHFB - with 40K taking top spot. Of course, that says nothing about sales figures and 'more popular' is a very nebulous term.

You might also want to browse through the Chapterhouse vs GW lawsuit as they will give you some basic % numbers on which products were sold in the US. believe 2010 was the most recent info on what was legally posted for the courts.

For me personally, the main reason why I prefer 40k to Fantasy is due to the sheer amount of background compared to fantasy. I love reading the horus heresy novels, omnibuses ect...

Although I have not bothered to play a game of 6th ed 40k or actually read the rule book I bought... 6th ed seems like a way of selling more bastions/flyers.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Not really. We've seen percentage system before in 5th?(sorry memory is foggy). Just like then and now, its not really great becasue all it does is sink points into other areas. Like characters. I've already played hero hammer. Not really liking it again.

This is something that's always confused me, how is 8th less like 7th when it comes to characters? I only played DE, and VC a lot before, and I remember VC taking very minimum core troops (just the required amount), and than putting everything into their characters, DE took upwards of 1-4 casters/masters/lord, with hydra's and repeaters filling out the rest of the points.

How is 7th less herohammer than 8th?

5TH edition. Hero hammer. You could take 50% of the army in characters. More so then 7th. Just like 8th, it mirrors 5th,

This just in:

At our local GW, 2 WHFB events were planned for october. 1 has been fully cancelled while the other one, a Storm of Yahtzee, has been reduced to 1000.

We're looking at 6 40k events though, ranging from 1000 to 1850 points.

I like it

Storm of Yahtzee

Warhammer should be renamed to this

carmachu wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Not really. We've seen percentage system before in 5th?(sorry memory is foggy). Just like then and now, its not really great becasue all it does is sink points into other areas. Like characters. I've already played hero hammer. Not really liking it again.

This is something that's always confused me, how is 8th less like 7th when it comes to characters? I only played DE, and VC a lot before, and I remember VC taking very minimum core troops (just the required amount), and than putting everything into their characters, DE took upwards of 1-4 casters/masters/lord, with hydra's and repeaters filling out the rest of the points.

How is 7th less herohammer than 8th?

5TH edition. Hero hammer. You could take 50% of the army in characters. More so then 7th. Just like 8th, it mirrors 5th,

Yes you can take 25% in Lords and 25% in heroes, however in 7th you had no points limit and instead just a character limit per 1000 points. (At 2000 you had 1, with 4 characters)

So that if you really wanted, you could spend far more then the typical 25% on them if you had the options to. You can have more heroes in 8th, I understand this, but their quality will be far worse then if you fully kitted them out, and I always though that HeroHammer meant having powerful characters that would beat out entire units, rather than a horde of heroes (Which only OnG can pull off very well)

carmachu wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Not really. We've seen percentage system before in 5th?(sorry memory is foggy). Just like then and now, its not really great becasue all it does is sink points into other areas. Like characters. I've already played hero hammer. Not really liking it again.

This is something that's always confused me, how is 8th less like 7th when it comes to characters? I only played DE, and VC a lot before, and I remember VC taking very minimum core troops (just the required amount), and than putting everything into their characters, DE took upwards of 1-4 casters/masters/lord, with hydra's and repeaters filling out the rest of the points.

How is 7th less herohammer than 8th?

5TH edition. Hero hammer. You could take 50% of the army in characters. More so then 7th. Just like 8th, it mirrors 5th,

8th is nothing like 5th in terms of hero hammer. Anyone (with maybe 2 exceptions) who is fielding 50% of there points in heroes is going to loose.


text removed.
Reds8n

Come on, man. That's not constructive. I'm in favor of 8th, but it's still relevant to hear what other locale's are doing with respect to the game.

RZ

Sorry bro Ive just about had my fill of folk who dont play anymore taking every chance they can to kick good old fantasy in the face.

I have a bunch of people in the WHFB and LOTR area than 40k. So mainly I play WHFB 'cause my friends aren't interested in 40k.
In my FLGS each time I bring either my dwarfs or DA I get a game no problem. There's another one in the city that if your lucky, you could get a WHFB 500p match, but everyone plays 40k there and they sell mainly 40k and its really the same in Fremantle (I hail from WA). It just really depends which people prefer more, sci-fi or fantasy.
I love both as much, but have only played 3 games of 6th, so I'm not really sure of 40k yet in gameplay, but me and my friend have an epic game of 500p WHFB with Deathmaster Snitch and the High King or Thorek which makes for an interesting battle.

 Red_Zeke wrote:
I see a lot of folks on both sides of the debate in this thread extrapolating their personal experiences, or the conditions of their local playing area and assuming that applies worldwide. There's also some "I know a guy who knows a guys who says sales are down". Is there someone who's got an actual link to sales or some kind of number that might prove/disprove this assertion that Warhammer Fantasy is "dying"?

I think this is a great point. And really, I have no way of knowing what fantasy is doing on a bigger scale.

But of the folks on Dakka who I've gotten together with a few times to play fantasy (Jin, Wehrkind, and Boss_Salvage) only Salvage is still kicking the fantasy tires with any regularity... and even him, not so much from what I can tell. All bitten by the warmahordes bug!

8th definitely gave me the nudge out the door... and I think I gave it a pretty fair shot (even played in a fantasy tourney at Adepticon this past year... which the same fantasy player who is local to me won like he has many times in the past!). I just didn't enjoy it...

However, if Avatars of War ever get their dwarf line done up, and I expect them to, then I WILL be getting back into fantasy with a dwarf army... thanks mostly to RZ's making them look interesting and fun to play (whether this is true or not, I am not sure, but I have been convinced). I anticipate that being something like late next year... as the main motivation for me would be the models, of which I love Avatars of War's the most.

So, all that to say... it definitely dropped off with guys I know from Dakka, and at my local store (on wargaming night it used to be 25-40% or so fantasy... now 40k/warmahordes make up a larger percentage and fantasy is down to something like 10%, or absent at times). But lots of people still have fantasy armies and I could see it picking back up again... particularly with a new ruleset, but that's got to be a ways off!

I am modeller first and gamer second, and for me collecting 40K armies is just more rewarding. I like the fantasy models, especially the Empire, but to actually play you need insane amounts of them. This is not so much about the cost for me, but the time it takes to convert and paint them. And then the buggers need to be ranked, and this is just a pain. Someone's spear always ends up stabbing a mate in the eye, and ranking greatly limits how you can pose the models.

In 40k you can freely pose every model how you like, and they're all visible. And as you need less models, you can pay more attention to converting and painting each one of them.

 Crimson wrote:
I am modeller first and gamer second, and for me collecting 40K armies is just more rewarding. I like the fantasy models, especially the Empire, but to actually play you need insane amounts of them. This is not so much about the cost for me, but the time it takes to convert and paint them. And then the buggers need to be ranked, and this is just a pain. Someone's spear always ends up stabbing a mate in the eye, and ranking greatly limits how you can pose the models.

In 40k you can freely pose every model how you like, and they're all visible. And as you need less models, you can pay more attention to converting and painting each one of them.

I'm not much of a converter atm, but large units of infantry in WHFB gives you the opportunity to put some awesome dioramas in your units, which, in my opinion, look just as cool as nicely posed models.

Besides, with careful planning you can get your models to rank up just fine, and even fit a cool pose or several in there.

 The Shadow wrote:


Besides, with careful planning you can get your models to rank up just fine, and even fit a cool pose or several in there.

I'm afraid I'm not fan of the 'careful planning' phase... Yes, when I do fantasy units I number every model so they can fit properly in their place in the unit, but that is rather annoying thing to do.

You're right about the mini-dioramas though.

Yeah, I understand about that, I agree it is far more fun to just go in all glue/paints blazing, it's just that you may regret it later.

Another thing I like about the aesthetics of a Fantasy Army is the way the unit looks when it's ranked up, painted nicely with cool, draping banner, flocked, and put on an also-flocked movement tray. It just looks nice