Its probably to late to change anything so please do complain and do what you can to flag this since its not acceptable that they are selling a kit not fit for purpose at these prices too. Its not a garage product where the guy is taking his first steps.
If plastics go the finecast way of lack of quality control then bye bye.
Regarding the skeletons the bones are rather thin but when you put them together most of them fit inside the robes. If you are careful when building the final minis should be a bit more sturdy.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I would have like Fimir too, and I also feel adding an army that was not another greenskin variety to Destruction would be better (doesn't have to be a new race either). But while I would have liked those things MORE I am still excited & happy to see Destruction getting content.
I don't want to judge until I see the new models, but more orcs doesn't feel like "Destruction getting content" to me. 3rd ed isn't over and like with Death GW has years to add extra armies if they make Destruction the focus of the edition, but with what we have now it feels like a really weak start.
Well for one they are hobgoblins so a new race, but a new race of greenskin. So like half a new race? Second edition started with 'just more ghosts' and that worked out pretty well for Death.
lord marcus wrote: Anyone else having issues with the skeleton warriors? I've had two sets of legs break during assembly.
The cursed city or the new boxed core set? If its the new kits its a case of poor design. Miniatures should be designed to fit the purpose and not snap easy due to incompetent evaluation of the material limitations. Doest matter how cool something looks if they snap.
If its the cursed city well it was one offs, rare things never to be seen again I guess.
Many moons ago I bought a Lizardmen starter set and basically everything in it had extra brittle plastic. You had to be super careful with things like the Skink javelins and blowpipes, even cleaning the mould lines was difficult without having breakages. They also had worse than normal mould lines for GW stuff.
But this was agggggges ago, I haven't had any problem in the many years since, but maybe on this run GW messed up the plastic blend, pressure or temperature to create an extra brittle plastic and combined with the extra thin legs of the skeletons it's creating problems? Dunno.
Sometimes its also that people new to wargames get started with a brand new army. Or perhaps those who only have experience with chunky models like Marines or Stormcast suddenly start working with more fine detail models with thinner parts.
So sometimes its just a learning curve aspect that hits a bunch of people of similar skill all at once.
Overread wrote: Sometimes its also that people new to wargames get started with a brand new army. Or perhaps those who only have experience with chunky models like Marines or Stormcast suddenly start working with more fine detail models with thinner parts.
So sometimes its just a learning curve aspect that hits a bunch of people of similar skill all at once.
The guy from the reddit link stated that he is no noob, and has the experience building the old GW skellies.
lord marcus wrote: Anyone else having issues with the skeleton warriors? I've had two sets of legs break during assembly.
The cursed city or the new boxed core set? If its the new kits its a case of poor design. Miniatures should be designed to fit the purpose and not snap easy due to incompetent evaluation of the material limitations. Doest matter how cool something looks if they snap.
If its the cursed city well it was one offs, rare things never to be seen again I guess.
Many moons ago I bought a Lizardmen starter set and basically everything in it had extra brittle plastic. You had to be super careful with things like the Skink javelins and blowpipes, even cleaning the mould lines was difficult without having breakages. They also had worse than normal mould lines for GW stuff.
But this was agggggges ago, I haven't had any problem in the many years since, but maybe on this run GW messed up the plastic blend, pressure or temperature to create an extra brittle plastic and combined with the extra thin legs of the skeletons it's creating problems? Dunno.
Yes can be many things and its very hard for me to pin point the issue because I still have not got them.
Ages ago there was issues on several models like the dreaded bows on the night goblins original designs or the feet of the NID gaunts etc etc. I think GW is much better now but still pushing limits of how thin plastic can go. Well saying that some new nighthaunt are so fragile that they should have been reviewed before release.
Overread wrote:Sometimes its also that people new to wargames get started with a brand new army. Or perhaps those who only have experience with chunky models like Marines or Stormcast suddenly start working with more fine detail models with thinner parts.
So sometimes its just a learning curve aspect that hits a bunch of people of similar skill all at once.
I sculpt and design minis and far from inexperienced but I understand what you are saying although the most precious thing any designer can have is feedback from their clients.... All of them and from different levels of experience. This is a tabletop miniature and should not require decades of experience to resculpt, pin plastic etc like a collector item. Just saying
Galas wrote: destruction faction of industrial theme
Well that was never on the cards. Being non-industrial is literally the one thing distinguishing Destruction from Order.
Huh?
Ogres use more guns than literally any of order factions. Bigger ones, too. Goblin sky pirates have fleet more sophisticated than anything but notSquats have. Kragnos is singular but if his gear is any indication, his race was capable of better craftsmanship than most of the Realms. The difference is lack of 'culture', 'law', and similar stuff, roughly defined 'civilization', not industry. 40K orks would be very much still destruction race despite having industry far above the rest of the Realms, and really, if GW wants to expand destruction, just dirtier and slightly bigger goblins (or smaller orks) without any theme of their own, like industry or magic or massed cavalry or whatever, are a terrible way to do it.
if it breaks of clear, with no change in colour of the plastic and maybe a little spike in the middle of the broken part
this is a material problem and no chance to avoid it
we have seen this before and it has to do with the process (with the plastic flow in from different sides and this is the point were it comes together and if it is already too cold there, you get a breaking point)
NinthMusketeer wrote: I would have like Fimir too, and I also feel adding an army that was not another greenskin variety to Destruction would be better (doesn't have to be a new race either). But while I would have liked those things MORE I am still excited & happy to see Destruction getting content.
I don't want to judge until I see the new models, but more orcs doesn't feel like "Destruction getting content" to me. 3rd ed isn't over and like with Death GW has years to add extra armies if they make Destruction the focus of the edition, but with what we have now it feels like a really weak start.
Well for one they are hobgoblins so a new race, but a new race of greenskin. So like half a new race? Second edition started with 'just more ghosts' and that worked out pretty well for Death.
Are they hobgoblins? As far as I'm aware that's still speculation as GW hasn't revealed anything on them yet other than that video snippet and as such appears like fanmade categorization as per genre standards that may or may not be relevant to AoS. Taller than a goblin but skinnier than an orc? Why, that must be a hobgoblin! The question I have is, what good does that actually do me if the last iteration of Warhammer hobgoblin was considered different from other greenskins because of their status as slaves to Chaos Dwarfs (which I assume a discrete Destruction faction won't be)?
Also, luckily I'm a racist and if this variety of green, dumb and ugly doesn't look much different from other varieties of green, dumb and ugly, there's no real difference.
I'll say this as someone who wished for more undead but didn't find Nighthaunt to his liking, but I could actually appreciate them as a broadening of the Grand Alliance because they took a fairly underrepresented slice of the Vampire Counts models and formed an entire faction around it with with a large variety of different units and a distinct feel to it that differed from ghouls, skeletons and zombies. I know it's too early to tell, but how distinct can we really expect these new greenskins to be. Orcs and Goblins as leftovers that got bolstered by true AoS models cover a lot of what greenskin culture has been in Warhammer. Goblin sky pirates? I can see how that would present a technologically savvy addition to an otherwise traditional fantasy (mega-)faction. Swamp dwelling hillbilly hobgobbos? Not so much.
lord marcus wrote: Anyone else having issues with the skeleton warriors? I've had two sets of legs break during assembly.
The cursed city or the new boxed core set? If its the new kits its a case of poor design. Miniatures should be designed to fit the purpose and not snap easy due to incompetent evaluation of the material limitations. Doest matter how cool something looks if they snap.
If its the cursed city well it was one offs, rare things never to be seen again I guess.
So if the new GW skellies are prone to snapping would any of you who own Sepulchral Guard push fit skellies recommend them? I want sturdy HIPS skellies for solo/co-p/skirmish games.
Shadow Walker wrote: So if the new GW skellies are prone to snapping would any of you who own Sepulchral Guard push fit skellies recommend them? I want sturdy HIPS skellies for solo/co-p/skirmish games.
Shadow Walker wrote: So if the new GW skellies are prone to snapping would any of you who own Sepulchral Guard push fit skellies recommend them? I want sturdy HIPS skellies for solo/co-p/skirmish games.
You could always go third party
If a third party makes ones I like then yes Old Warlord ones are a pain to build and fragile, Oathmark ones are similar, Wargames Atlantic have weird proportions. Yeah, I am picky but it looks like SG are my last chance to get HIPS skellies. Most of the games like The Lasting Tales/Frostgrave etc. will not want more than 5-6 skellies on board so this could be a good choice but I need to be sure they are sturdy or at least more sturdy than others on the market.
Shadow Walker wrote: So if the new GW skellies are prone to snapping would any of you who own Sepulchral Guard push fit skellies recommend them? I want sturdy HIPS skellies for solo/co-p/skirmish games.
You could always go third party
If a third party makes ones I like then yes Old Warlord ones are a pain to build and fragile, Oathmark ones are similar, Wargames Atlantic have weird proportions. Yeah, I am picky but it looks like SG are my last chance to get HIPS skellies. Most of the games like The Lasting Tales/Frostgrave etc. will not want more than 5-6 skellies on board so this could be a good choice but I need to be sure they are sturdy or at least more sturdy than others on the market.
Shadow Walker wrote: So if the new GW skellies are prone to snapping would any of you who own Sepulchral Guard push fit skellies recommend them? I want sturdy HIPS skellies for solo/co-p/skirmish games.
You could always go third party
If a third party makes ones I like then yes Old Warlord ones are a pain to build and fragile, Oathmark ones are similar, Wargames Atlantic have weird proportions. Yeah, I am picky but it looks like SG are my last chance to get HIPS skellies. Most of the games like The Lasting Tales/Frostgrave etc. will not want more than 5-6 skellies on board so this could be a good choice but I need to be sure they are sturdy or at least more sturdy than others on the market.
On another note, there's another preview next saturday and the name is... Dominion. Which was the name for the new boxset according to the video by Grimdark.
Also note that the final Gotrek and Felix Omnibus approaches!
City of the Damned
Kinslayer
Rememberers (short story)
Slayer
That's one outstanding story and the 3 stories (2 full and one short) that comprise the End Times series of tales for the pair. That means that if you want too, by next week, you'll be able to get the entire Gotrek and Felix stories.
I think the only short not in one of the omnibus is The Lost Kinsmen, it could also be in the 6th or might have slipped into one of the others without me noticing. Otherwise its in Myths and Legends.
Shadow Walker wrote: So if the new GW skellies are prone to snapping would any of you who own Sepulchral Guard push fit skellies recommend them? I want sturdy HIPS skellies for solo/co-p/skirmish games.
You could always go third party
If a third party makes ones I like then yes Old Warlord ones are a pain to build and fragile, Oathmark ones are similar, Wargames Atlantic have weird proportions. Yeah, I am picky but it looks like SG are my last chance to get HIPS skellies. Most of the games like The Lasting Tales/Frostgrave etc. will not want more than 5-6 skellies on board so this could be a good choice but I need to be sure they are sturdy or at least more sturdy than others on the market.
All skeleton miniatures are frail by nature - I mean, unless you want unrealistic bulky skeletons, they are litterally just bones and thus rather thin at a 28-32 mm scale. GW isn't an exception here.
The new Deathrattle Skeletons kit has indeed quite thin parts - especially the legs. You have to be careful when you remove them / clean their parts with a modeling knife. On the 20 I built, only one had his leg snapped. Otherwise, it usually bends unless you're a brute with it. Once the main body is assembled (3 parts) and glued to the base, it's okay.
But honestly, all skeleton miniatures I built in the past, including from other companies, have the same problem. Especially the "just skeletons" miniatures with no armors attached to try to make it a bit more sturdy. They're all a pain to build.
Man, "Dominion" is just such a lame word. Like, if that really is the name of the next box, it's up there with "Land" and "No Parking Zone" when it comes to inspiring imagination.
Cronch wrote: Man, "Dominion" is just such a lame word. Like, if that really is the name of the next box, it's up there with "Land" and "No Parking Zone" when it comes to inspiring imagination.
I'll just go let Rio Grande Games know that one of their best selling board games has a lame name.
Shadow Walker wrote: So if the new GW skellies are prone to snapping would any of you who own Sepulchral Guard push fit skellies recommend them? I want sturdy HIPS skellies for solo/co-p/skirmish games.
You could always go third party
If a third party makes ones I like then yes Old Warlord ones are a pain to build and fragile, Oathmark ones are similar, Wargames Atlantic have weird proportions. Yeah, I am picky but it looks like SG are my last chance to get HIPS skellies. Most of the games like The Lasting Tales/Frostgrave etc. will not want more than 5-6 skellies on board so this could be a good choice but I need to be sure they are sturdy or at least more sturdy than others on the market.
Maybe look into metal?
HIPS only
Well then you are stuck with weird proportions or models that break easily. Which one would be easier to work with for you?
Shadow Walker wrote: So if the new GW skellies are prone to snapping would any of you who own Sepulchral Guard push fit skellies recommend them? I want sturdy HIPS skellies for solo/co-p/skirmish games.
You could always go third party
If a third party makes ones I like then yes Old Warlord ones are a pain to build and fragile, Oathmark ones are similar, Wargames Atlantic have weird proportions. Yeah, I am picky but it looks like SG are my last chance to get HIPS skellies. Most of the games like The Lasting Tales/Frostgrave etc. will not want more than 5-6 skellies on board so this could be a good choice but I need to be sure they are sturdy or at least more sturdy than others on the market.
All skeleton miniatures are frail by nature - I mean, unless you want unrealistic bulky skeletons, they are litterally just bones and thus rather thin at a 28-32 mm scale. GW isn't an exception here.
The new Deathrattle Skeletons kit has indeed quite thin parts - especially the legs. You have to be careful when you remove them / clean their parts with a modeling knife. On the 20 I built, only one had his leg snapped. Otherwise, it usually bends unless you're a brute with it. Once the main body is assembled (3 parts) and glued to the base, it's okay.
But honestly, all skeleton miniatures I built in the past, including from other companies, have the same problem. Especially the "just skeletons" miniatures with no armors attached to try to make it a bit more sturdy. They're all a pain to build.
It sounds like the problem is with the femur snapping, however the femur is mostly covered by the rags/armour attached to the torso piece so it feels a bit unnecessary to have the femur so thin and unsupported.
On the surface it sounds like a bit of a design issue to me, I understand the "skeletons are supposed to be thin" argument, but these are armoured skeletons with quite a bit of detail, having a bit of ragged cloth running down the femur to support it (which is what they did on the old models which were less armoured/detailed) would be an easy solution to the problem.
These days I also expect thin bits to be pretty flexible. Some recent GW kits I've bought had thin bits that bent while I was assembling them and I carefully bent them back. So I do wonder if GW went for a harder but more brittle plastic for these kits.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ghaz wrote: Broken Realms: Kragnos goes on pre-order this Saturday
It's an expansion rather than a new Seraphon book and with 3rd ed we know there's a full new Seraphon book around the corner at some stage which would be a more likely time that GW would do any major range revision for them. IF they do one, there's still a good few armies in worse positions such as Skaven with a boatload of much older models or Fyreslayers with very few models.
Seraphon just received a new battletome in March of 2020, so they're probably pretty low on the totem pole for a new battletome but stranger things have happened.
Okay, fair enough, I’m not too familiar with the Lizard release chronology for AoS, just seemed like they haven’t had new models in a while and the Saurus must be some of the older models GW still sells.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Okay, fair enough, I’m not too familiar with the Lizard release chronology for AoS, just seemed like they haven’t had new models in a while and the Saurus must be some of the older models GW still sells.
I'm not sure what the new greenskin faction will be, but I totally could have gotten behind an industrial orruk army. Something akin to Sauruman's urukhai, but maybe with more blackpowder weapons. Nothing on par with skygrots or KO, but still clearly industrial themed.
Kragnos is growing on me too. I liked the model, but now I kind of want to make an army of monsters themed around him, like a non chaos Throgg force. I just wish he had another face option. I think a war mask option would have done him wonders.
Dominion? Like in World of Warcraft: Shadowlands: Chains of Domination?
Glad I'm only playing it as a market simulator right now, and my usual RP. Hate to have only 50 characters.
Where was I? Oh yes.
Do to Warhammer+, I like the new greenskinz, but I like them because the previous range got squatted so horribly short. They are pretty much only one infantry + one cavalry + one elite option and your flavour of heroes; I like my armies with more options.
Thargrim wrote: Really hope those are hobgoblins and not just orc or goblins in different gear. Really though i'm getting tired of greenskins, I think we have enough varieties of them as it is. Re envisioned Fimir would have been so much more interesting, now i'm back to the mindset that I won't be starting an AoS army...since the vamps were so underwhelming.
Yeah......I'm with you on this one. Hobgoblins wouldn't be too bad, but more orcs and goblins? I think there are already enough varieties of them. I would have been all over re-envisioned Fimir and was definitely open to something new in general, but more orcs is just kind of meh......I was hoping for something cool and unique to assemble a Warcry band of.
Thargrim wrote: Really hope those are hobgoblins and not just orc or goblins in different gear. Really though i'm getting tired of greenskins, I think we have enough varieties of them as it is. Re envisioned Fimir would have been so much more interesting, now i'm back to the mindset that I won't be starting an AoS army...since the vamps were so underwhelming.
Yeah......I'm with you on this one. Hobgoblins wouldn't be too bad, but more orcs and goblins? I think there are already enough varieties of them.
Where are they hiding them, then?
There are currently:
Night goblins (with a few token forest goblins hanging out on what are now effectively night goblin spiders)
Black orcs
Savage orcs
... that's it. All the other varieties (including the 'normal' ones) have been banished from reality.
Overread wrote: It's an expansion rather than a new Seraphon book and with 3rd ed we know there's a full new Seraphon book around the corner at some stage which would be a more likely time that GW would do any major range revision for them. IF they do one, there's still a good few armies in worse positions such as Skaven with a boatload of much older models or Fyreslayers with very few models.
I wouldn't expect Lizards until 2023 - the last time they were mentioned (last year I think) it was said they were still far off.
Shadow Walker wrote: So if the new GW skellies are prone to snapping would any of you who own Sepulchral Guard push fit skellies recommend them? I want sturdy HIPS skellies for solo/co-p/skirmish games.
You could always go third party
If a third party makes ones I like then yes Old Warlord ones are a pain to build and fragile, Oathmark ones are similar, Wargames Atlantic have weird proportions. Yeah, I am picky but it looks like SG are my last chance to get HIPS skellies. Most of the games like The Lasting Tales/Frostgrave etc. will not want more than 5-6 skellies on board so this could be a good choice but I need to be sure they are sturdy or at least more sturdy than others on the market.
Maybe look into metal?
HIPS only
Well then you are stuck with weird proportions or models that break easily. Which one would be easier to work with for you?
Yeah, weird proportions of WGA ones because at least they are sturdy but I would get them only because there are archers as option. Still, I hope that Sepulchral Guard would be a solution and get me good looking and non fragile skellies but someone has to yet give me opinion about them. So far no owner of them said anything here.
Shadow Walker wrote: So if the new GW skellies are prone to snapping would any of you who own Sepulchral Guard push fit skellies recommend them? I want sturdy HIPS skellies for solo/co-p/skirmish games.
You could always go third party
If a third party makes ones I like then yes Old Warlord ones are a pain to build and fragile, Oathmark ones are similar, Wargames Atlantic have weird proportions. Yeah, I am picky but it looks like SG are my last chance to get HIPS skellies. Most of the games like The Lasting Tales/Frostgrave etc. will not want more than 5-6 skellies on board so this could be a good choice but I need to be sure they are sturdy or at least more sturdy than others on the market.
Maybe look into metal?
HIPS only
Well then you are stuck with weird proportions or models that break easily. Which one would be easier to work with for you?
Yeah, weird proportions of WGA ones because at least they are sturdy but I would get them only because there are archers as option. Still, I hope that Sepulchral Guard would be a solution and get me good looking and non fragile skellies but someone has to yet give me opinion about them. So far no owner of them said anything here.
If you fear broken limbs, Sepulchral Guard is no different from the Vampire Counts skeletons and, I can only assume for lack of having any yet, the new skeleton kit. One arm broke off during assembly for sure, maybe a second one, too. It's been a while since I assembled them. I'm afraid I can only repeat what's already been said, bones at this scale aren't very sturdy. That's just the nature of it.
Now, I will say that I generally have confidence in GW plastic skeletons. You need to treat them with care, of course, as you should with all slender miniatures, but GW doesn't sell fundamentally flawed models. Sometimes there's manufacturer error like the mentioned flow problems that occasionally crop up. Sometimes it's user error. But in spite of having pretty shaky hands and all the problems that come with it, I've assembled dozens and dozens of skeletons in my time and the number of broken limbs I've had is negligible. Something you may also want to consider is that this may only be an issue during assembly. If you add a good coat or two of varnish after painting, you get a lot of added sturdiness to your models.
Out of curiosity, you said you're only going to use half a dozen or so models at a time. It may sound wasteful, but if I were in your position I'd consider getting the new skeletons simply because they come in a box of twenty. Even if there's a little loss, and let me say again that I don't think there is an actual, structural problem with the kit, you still end up with more good models than you need. Something to think about, I guess.
Nah, "Dominion" is still a trash name, and someone came up with it on a toilet break after eating too many primaris lieutenants.
No sure why the name bothers you that much, but you can probably live happy in the knowledge that the box will sell out in five minutes and never be seen again. GW already called it a launch box like Indomitus. Why put more time into thinking up a name than it takes to sell out?
Slightly more than the other leak then. Lauka Vai at £39.50 seems even better with the Warsong Revenant being only 5 quid less. I know she isn’t massive and the Revenant isn’t small but I’d have expected more between them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Apparent contents of the boxes:
If you fear broken limbs, Sepulchral Guard is no different from the Vampire Counts skeletons and, I can only assume for lack of having any yet, the new skeleton kit. One arm broke off during assembly for sure, maybe a second one, too. It's been a while since I assembled them. I'm afraid I can only repeat what's already been said, bones at this scale aren't very sturdy. That's just the nature of it.
Now, I will say that I generally have confidence in GW plastic skeletons. You need to treat them with care, of course, as you should with all slender miniatures, but GW doesn't sell fundamentally flawed models. Sometimes there's manufacturer error like the mentioned flow problems that occasionally crop up. Sometimes it's user error. But in spite of having pretty shaky hands and all the problems that come with it, I've assembled dozens and dozens of skeletons in my time and the number of broken limbs I've had is negligible. Something you may also want to consider is that this may only be an issue during assembly. If you add a good coat or two of varnish after painting, you get a lot of added sturdiness to your models.
Out of curiosity, you said you're only going to use half a dozen or so models at a time. It may sound wasteful, but if I were in your position I'd consider getting the new skeletons simply because they come in a box of twenty. Even if there's a little loss, and let me say again that I don't think there is an actual, structural problem with the kit, you still end up with more good models than you need. Something to think about, I guess.
Twins at £65 also appears cheaper than I estimated
The twist for the "twins" box is that it's singular, not plurial.
If you want to have both of them, you have to buy two kits. And suddenly, it's expensive.
But of course. Which is a bit cheeky, but at the same time its no different to a Keeper and hero version of a keeper. Plus we don't know the twins points yet. They'll either be powerful but cheap (300 or so each) so you could take both; or supremely powerful and you'll only need (or practically be able to) fit one at a time.
But of course. Which is a bit cheeky, but at the same time its no different to a Keeper and hero version of a keeper. Plus we don't know the twins points yet. They'll either be powerful but cheap (300 or so each) so you could take both; or supremely powerful and you'll only need (or practically be able to) fit one at a time.
To be honest, cost in points is a bit irrelevant here. I was talking about having the duo like they were presented in the video. But otherwise, I agree with you.
What’s Inside the Warhammer Age of Sigmar Dominion Boxed Set? Find Out on Saturday
That’s right, folks, another glorious day of reveals awaits you on Saturday with our latest Warhammer Preview Online – Unboxing Dominion.
What is Dominion, you ask? It’s the launch box for the new edition of Warhammer Age of Sigmar.
For fans of the Mortal Realms, this is quite simply the best boxed set ever. If you looked on enviously last year as Warhammer 40,000 players cracked open their copies of Indomitus, this boxed set is like that. Dominion, however, has fewer boltguns and undying robots, and more lightning warriors and… well, you’ll have to join us to see.
You’ve probably spotted the countdown over on the Warhammer Age of Sigmar website, and you’ve no doubt been keeping up with our special series of cryptic Rumour Engine reveals, but this weekend, we’re showing you everything. Join us as we unveil the whole box – there may even be a few extra surprises too.
Be here, on Warhammer Community, this Saturday at 6pm (BST) as Adam and Eddie lift the lid off the shiny Dominion box live on Twitch and rifle through its contents. Here’s when you can tune in to catch the live stream from wherever you are in the world.
We’ll see you on Saturday, but until then, let us know your best guesses as to what will be revealed on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram.
Rihgu wrote: Is DRAKE a new keyword? I don't know any models with it and none of the models that seem like they'd have it have it.
I believe it is. Drakespawn, Drakeseers and such do not have it. Might be a new introduction with the latest Stormcast release as the other keywords are Stormcast.
Nothing says fun like a model that can accidentally kill a monster by charging near it, and then obliterating another unit with overpowered attacks. Very fun.
----
Glad to see the AoS box will be the best one yet. I wasn't sure they were going to trot out that cliche again, and was worried about missing out.
I am eager to see what's in it, though. Jokes about their standardized marketing tropes aside.
I wonder if the 18 wounds is how they felt they 'balanced' him.
Or maybe he's stupid expensive. What are some other models that get up there in points? Has anything broken 600?
Archaon is 800 points in the Slaves to Darkness battletome, Teclis is 660 poinnts in the Lumineth Realm-lords battletome and Nagash is 975 points in the Soulblight Gravelords battletome. Greater Daemons come in between 300 to 400 points.
Has anyone else started putting together their Deathrattle Skeletons - mine are really brittle. I'm no ham-fisted ogre type, but I've had several legs snap off whilst clipping them off and a couple of the swords snap mid-point, not near any point where they meet the sprue.
Been buying GW stuff since the 80s, so pretty experienced, but these are really really brittle compared to almost everything I've had from them
Somebody else posted the same thing here (or one of the other N&R threads) and there have been more online elsewhere
so either it's a bad design (possible as these are skeleton legs) or perhaps their normal plastic supplier was out of stock and they've bought some from another supplier that just isn't great quality (too much recycled material in it?),
I've had issues with scale model kits from Miniart which were really fragile and that was down to them being unable to get their normal plastic when Ukraine and Russia first started to have troubles
be sure to complain direct to GW (they may well offer replacements, and will hopefully address the sculpting/materials issue for the future)
Of those, Nagash is probably the best example. He's so powerful in lore. Like, trapping a city in a pocket dimension because he was mad at them. No reason Sigmar wouldn't be allowed in. Hopefully we got Grugni too, but he's kind of crippled, so it makes sense he isn't in a fighting mood.
That said a few of those gods, Nagash for one, are often said to be more avatars on the table rather than their full forms. Meanwhile until recently Morathi was only a demigod not a full god.
Sigmar gave his hammer to another to fight with, he's very much removed himself from the battlefields for now.
That said I honestly wish GW would do a 6-15mm scale version of AoS so the gods could feel properly godly.
Thargrim wrote: Really hope those are hobgoblins and not just orc or goblins in different gear. Really though i'm getting tired of greenskins, I think we have enough varieties of them as it is. Re envisioned Fimir would have been so much more interesting, now i'm back to the mindset that I won't be starting an AoS army...since the vamps were so underwhelming.
Yeah......I'm with you on this one. Hobgoblins wouldn't be too bad, but more orcs and goblins? I think there are already enough varieties of them.
Where are they hiding them, then?
There are currently:
Night goblins (with a few token forest goblins hanging out on what are now effectively night goblin spiders)
Black orcs
Savage orcs
... that's it. All the other varieties (including the 'normal' ones) have been banished from reality.
Gloomspite, Ironjawz, Bonesplittaz. Three factions of orcs and goblins are enough. This game has a really opportunity to do cool unique stuff, and it would be a shame if Greenskins ended up like elves with 100 factions, instead of doing something different.
Thargrim wrote: Really hope those are hobgoblins and not just orc or goblins in different gear. Really though i'm getting tired of greenskins, I think we have enough varieties of them as it is. Re envisioned Fimir would have been so much more interesting, now i'm back to the mindset that I won't be starting an AoS army...since the vamps were so underwhelming.
Yeah......I'm with you on this one. Hobgoblins wouldn't be too bad, but more orcs and goblins? I think there are already enough varieties of them.
Where are they hiding them, then?
There are currently:
Night goblins (with a few token forest goblins hanging out on what are now effectively night goblin spiders)
Black orcs
Savage orcs
... that's it. All the other varieties (including the 'normal' ones) have been banished from reality.
Gloomspite, Ironjawz, Bonesplittaz. Three factions of orcs and goblins are enough. This game has a really opportunity to do cool unique stuff, and it would be a shame if Greenskins ended up like elves with 100 factions, instead of doing something different.
Not enough compared to The Old World: Orcs, Black orcs, Savage orcs, Goblins, Moonclan goblins, Spider Goblins, that's already twice the orcs, not including that they allied with trolls, giants, and they had actual ranged infantry and siege weapons.
Orcs and Black Orcs were effectively a single 'faction' though. Night Goblins and Forest Goblins were their own subfactions, while Goblins effectively slotted into Orcs+Black Orcs.
Thargrim wrote: Really hope those are hobgoblins and not just orc or goblins in different gear. Really though i'm getting tired of greenskins, I think we have enough varieties of them as it is. Re envisioned Fimir would have been so much more interesting, now i'm back to the mindset that I won't be starting an AoS army...since the vamps were so underwhelming.
Yeah......I'm with you on this one. Hobgoblins wouldn't be too bad, but more orcs and goblins? I think there are already enough varieties of them.
Where are they hiding them, then?
There are currently:
Night goblins (with a few token forest goblins hanging out on what are now effectively night goblin spiders)
Black orcs
Savage orcs
... that's it. All the other varieties (including the 'normal' ones) have been banished from reality.
Gloomspite, Ironjawz, Bonesplittaz. Three factions of orcs and goblins are enough. This game has a really opportunity to do cool unique stuff, and it would be a shame if Greenskins ended up like elves with 100 factions, instead of doing something different.
Not enough compared to The Old World: Orcs, Black orcs, Savage orcs, Goblins, Moonclan goblins, Spider Goblins, that's already twice the orcs, not including that they allied with trolls, giants, and they had actual ranged infantry and siege weapons.
Yes, but that was all one faction. One army book. So it made sense to add a single unit of Spider Goblins to the faction. If you got and make all of those subfactions into individual factions, you will need a ton of kits to flesh them all out. I for one would much rather see something different than another variety of orcs, goblins, elves, etc. Especially for destruction who's domain encompasses "Ogres, Goblins, Orcs......" and that's about it.
Yet, orcs had boyz, black orc, arrer boys, boar boys, 'ard boys, chariots, bosses with mounts, wyverns, savage orcs with giant stabbas and boars, and goblins also had wolf mounts and chariots, archers, spiders, squigs, kamikaze trebuchets.
They felt a lot more like a well roounded civilization, today they are just orcs, mounted orcs, and some shamans and bosses.
It does bug me that they scrapped the vanilla orcs and goblins. I feel like there would be normal orc tribes that aren't beefed up like Ironjawz or just savage like savage orcs. I guess you could say that the "normal" orcs are the 'ard boyz, but still.
Same with goblins, though at least now we have wolf riders from Underworlds that aren't just night goblin/forest goblin but on a wolf.
I would definitely rather it’d been a new race rather than more Orcs.
As mentioned, Orcs, goblins and Ogres isn’t a lot of race variance. (Well and giants).
Though when done well repeating can be awesome.
We’d all take the Sky goblins I’m sure.
GaroRobe wrote: It does bug me that they scrapped the vanilla orcs and goblins. I feel like there would be normal orc tribes that aren't beefed up like Ironjawz or just savage like savage orcs. I guess you could say that the "normal" orcs are the 'ard boyz, but still.
Same with goblins, though at least now we have wolf riders from Underworlds that aren't just night goblin/forest goblin but on a wolf.
I agree; without the normal guys, there's nothing for the specialists to stand out from.
I wonder if the 18 wounds is how they felt they 'balanced' him.
Or maybe he's stupid expensive. What are some other models that get up there in points? Has anything broken 600?
Archaon is 800 points in the Slaves to Darkness battletome, Teclis is 660 poinnts in the Lumineth Realm-lords battletome and Nagash is 975 points in the Soulblight Gravelords battletome. Greater Daemons come in between 300 to 400 points.
Balance him? Just mortal wound him to death. Zombies are a great counter to the God of Earthquakes and it makes me sad that isn't sarcastic.
CMLR wrote: Yet, orcs had boyz, black orc, arrer boys, boar boys, 'ard boys, chariots, bosses with mounts, wyverns, savage orcs with giant stabbas and boars, and goblins also had wolf mounts and chariots, archers, spiders, squigs, kamikaze trebuchets.
They felt a lot more like a well roounded civilization, today they are just orcs, mounted orcs, and some shamans and bosses.
I'm not surprised at the older normal orc kits being retired, but it would have been so easy to repurpose some kits to make a relatively modern all mounted orc army (orc outriders or something).
Boar boys, gorbad, azhag and the chariot would have made an excellent base for an army. Use the excellent gorbad and azhag models as generic boar/wyvern riders. Chariot is the only old model in that group (and really could be left out to be honest).
Surprised Kragnos isn't more (Mega-gargant territory, since they explicitly compared him to them).
The rest is pretty much as expected (not to say that isn't high, just not a surprise).
Kanluwen wrote: Ironscale being sub-$40 while the Witch Hunters are $50 was a surprise.
Why would it be ? Ironscale is a generic single character, Witch Hunters are a duo of named characters. Of course the Witch Hunters would be sold at a higher price.
People just don't understand the dynamic between how the miniatures work in game and their production release.
In a game, you know there is a limit to how many characters you can include in your armies - especially the unique ones. While one player can buy multiple boxes of generic troops, he's less likely to do so with the heroes. As for the named characters...he'll only need one set. Those who buy multiple boxes of unique units for conversions are more the exception than the rule here.
So it's not just "GW wants to make moar money on the Witch Hunters".
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: So this mystery army, I’m torn on desperately wanting to see it, but also kinda want the reveal to be a big surprise, so don’t want spoilers.
Its only another five days. So it would IMO be a shame if the reveals did get spoiled this late.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: So this mystery army, I’m torn on desperately wanting to see it, but also kinda want the reveal to be a big surprise, so don’t want spoilers.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: So this mystery army, I’m torn on desperately wanting to see it, but also kinda want the reveal to be a big surprise, so don’t want spoilers.
CMLR wrote: Wonder if this means that someday Sigmar himself will get his own model...
I want this so bad, along with Grimnir, Grungi, the actual Chaos Gods, etc. The epic feel of AoS running things like Teclis, Archaon, Nagash is a huge part of the draw to a lot of players, myself included.
I wonder if the 18 wounds is how they felt they 'balanced' him.
Or maybe he's stupid expensive. What are some other models that get up there in points? Has anything broken 600?
Archaon is 800 points in the Slaves to Darkness battletome, Teclis is 660 poinnts in the Lumineth Realm-lords battletome and Nagash is 975 points in the Soulblight Gravelords battletome. Greater Daemons come in between 300 to 400 points.
Balance him? Just mortal wound him to death. Zombies are a great counter to the God of Earthquakes and it makes me sad that isn't sarcastic.
Yeah, he, uh, doesn’t seem to have any protection from MW aside from his dispel-shield for spells.
Anyway, does anyone else think his monster trample ability is ridiculously swingy? Anything from 1 to 36 MW assuming it doesn’t fail.
I wonder if the 18 wounds is how they felt they 'balanced' him.
Or maybe he's stupid expensive. What are some other models that get up there in points? Has anything broken 600?
Archaon is 800 points in the Slaves to Darkness battletome, Teclis is 660 poinnts in the Lumineth Realm-lords battletome and Nagash is 975 points in the Soulblight Gravelords battletome. Greater Daemons come in between 300 to 400 points.
Balance him? Just mortal wound him to death. Zombies are a great counter to the God of Earthquakes and it makes me sad that isn't sarcastic.
Yeah, he, uh, doesn’t seem to have any protection from MW aside from his dispel-shield for spells.
Anyway, does anyone else think his monster trample ability is ridiculously swingy? Anything from 1 to 36 MW assuming it doesn’t fail.
Just make him roll buckets of saving throws. Preferably from a distance.
I wonder if the 18 wounds is how they felt they 'balanced' him.
Or maybe he's stupid expensive. What are some other models that get up there in points? Has anything broken 600?
Archaon is 800 points in the Slaves to Darkness battletome, Teclis is 660 poinnts in the Lumineth Realm-lords battletome and Nagash is 975 points in the Soulblight Gravelords battletome. Greater Daemons come in between 300 to 400 points.
Balance him? Just mortal wound him to death. Zombies are a great counter to the God of Earthquakes and it makes me sad that isn't sarcastic.
Yeah, he, uh, doesn’t seem to have any protection from MW aside from his dispel-shield for spells.
Anyway, does anyone else think his monster trample ability is ridiculously swingy? Anything from 1 to 36 MW assuming it doesn’t fail.
Just make him roll buckets of saving throws. Preferably from a distance.
With an edition change on the horizon it's mostly useless to speculate as to what we can do with or without him. Wizards in Destruction might get some kind of spell save vs mortals that they could cast on as a buff making him even more tanky.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: Somebody else posted the same thing here (or one of the other N&R threads) and there have been more online elsewhere
so either it's a bad design (possible as these are skeleton legs) or perhaps their normal plastic supplier was out of stock and they've bought some from another supplier that just isn't great quality (too much recycled material in it?),
I've had issues with scale model kits from Miniart which were really fragile and that was down to them being unable to get their normal plastic when Ukraine and Russia first started to have troubles
be sure to complain direct to GW (they may well offer replacements, and will hopefully address the sculpting/materials issue for the future)
I sent an email to GW about mine. They said to contact the store I bought them from because its an LGS and I didn't buy directly. I'm annoyed because its not the LGS fault they shipped a faulty product.
I hate GW's newer "contact the store" policy so much. I had damaged Dakkajets in the AI box, GW told me to contact the store, Wayland Games told me to contact GW...now I have at least one jet with Imperial rocket tails as shoota barrels.
I really like the witch hunter family, but my plan to use them and the Cursed City guy to reinforce my Warcry band is shot to pieces anyway (with the CC situation).
Aboit the AoS starter I'm not sure I'll get it, haven't fully painted a single Stormcast, ever, and I never liked Hobgoblins. Gorilla boyz 4 life.
I wonder if the 18 wounds is how they felt they 'balanced' him.
Or maybe he's stupid expensive. What are some other models that get up there in points? Has anything broken 600?
Archaon is 800 points in the Slaves to Darkness battletome, Teclis is 660 poinnts in the Lumineth Realm-lords battletome and Nagash is 975 points in the Soulblight Gravelords battletome. Greater Daemons come in between 300 to 400 points.
Balance him? Just mortal wound him to death. Zombies are a great counter to the God of Earthquakes and it makes me sad that isn't sarcastic.
Yeah, he, uh, doesn’t seem to have any protection from MW aside from his dispel-shield for spells.
Anyway, does anyone else think his monster trample ability is ridiculously swingy? Anything from 1 to 36 MW assuming it doesn’t fail.
It is a bell curve though; getting 1 or 36 is going to be something a regular player might see a couple times a year. The lower end is still up from it failing outright, while the higher end will almost never be relevant. There are few monsters that would feel a difference between 16 and 36 wounds; most would just be equally dead and the overkill offers no benefit.
That said, yeah, it is still ridiculously swingy. I feel it pushes past the 'fun-Destruction-random' to being simply too random and much less fun than it could be. Added together would have been a superior choice in my eyes.
Binabik15 wrote: I hate GW's newer "contact the store" policy so much. I had damaged Dakkajets in the AI box, GW told me to contact the store, Wayland Games told me to contact GW...now I have at least one jet with Imperial rocket tails as shoota barrels.
I really like the witch hunter family, but my plan to use them and the Cursed City guy to reinforce my Warcry band is shot to pieces anyway (with the CC situation).
Aboit the AoS starter I'm not sure I'll get it, haven't fully painted a single Stormcast, ever, and I never liked Hobgoblins. Gorilla boyz 4 life.
I see it is a nice perk, something which encourages a slightly reckless play style where he’s always better off charging.
The Dreadmace itself is nicely reliable with its flat 4 Damage. Add in his other attacks and he’s perfectly capable in combat even if he does little or nothing just for charging.
But the chance of doing some hefty Mortal Wounds is solid encouragement not to be shy. He’s a great battering ram against other heavy hitters. It doesn’t take much in the way of luck to deal a bunch of MW and then smash their face in with his regular attacks.
The flip side of course is that an opponent may very well be shy of engaging him with heavy hitters of their own.
Even if he is on the more expensive side of things, him scaring the pants off other big monsters gives you a significant board control tool. Enemy big monsters trying to avoid him need to be careful. And it’s not as if he’s solely limited to smashing big stuff, as any unit he decides to give a kicking is gonna be jam.
I like him, a lot. Is there a place for him in my Gloomspite? Maybe not regularly because I really, really love my Squigs. But once in a while? Sure.
Binabik15 wrote: I hate GW's newer "contact the store" policy so much. I had damaged Dakkajets in the AI box, GW told me to contact the store, Wayland Games told me to contact GW...now I have at least one jet with Imperial rocket tails as shoota barrels.
Given the price of those little planes I wouldn't put up with that.
In the UK, the retailer is responsible for returns/replacement/refund. The manufacturer might give you one, but they don't have to, they can tell you to go via the retailer, but the retailer can't ignore you. I'd tell Wayland you already asked GW and it's Wayland's responsibility, if they still don't step up you could tell GW the retailer isn't behaving or I imagine there's people you can report them to.
Binabik15 wrote: I hate GW's newer "contact the store" policy so much. I had damaged Dakkajets in the AI box, GW told me to contact the store, Wayland Games told me to contact GW...now I have at least one jet with Imperial rocket tails as shoota barrels.
Given the price of those little planes I wouldn't put up with that.
In the UK, the retailer is responsible for returns/replacement/refund. The manufacturer might give you one, but they don't have to, they can tell you to go via the retailer, but the retailer can't ignore you. I'd tell Wayland you already asked GW and it's Wayland's responsibility, if they still don't step up you could tell GW the retailer isn't behaving or I imagine there's people you can report them to.
Yeah, Wayland telling you to contact GW is lazy on their part. The typical pattern is that they take the damaged product, send it back to GW, GW sends them a new box or credits them. It is, yes, some work on Wayland's part, but it's entirely on them as the final handler of the product to make things right.
GW, for all its flaws, takes the handling of their product really seriously. If a bit is missing or broken by the time you open the box, they typically try to make it right.
Anyway. Interesting to see the stuff coming forth for Kragnos and the future of AoS. I have ZERO interest in the Dominion box, mostly because I know it'll sell out fast, and all the pieces of it will be available later. I'll happily munch popcorn as the community makes a big fuss about it. Ra ra scalpers, ra ra GW, ra ra limited product (that isn't, it's just limited at that price point, everything will be available later, just like it was for 40k)
I see it is a nice perk, something which encourages a slightly reckless play style where he’s always better off charging.
Nice perk? Tad under 3 MW vs non-monsters, almost 11 MW vs monsters in average.
Bit more than perk
58% chance you flatten out any 12W monster(like my poor stegadons and bastiladons).
Ahhh....but depending on the enemies deployment and unit placement, he might leave himself expose by being so Killy! Especially if the foe has a reliable method of pumping out Mortal Wounds.
And so I understand the 58% chance, is that including rolls of 7 doing no MW?
I see it is a nice perk, something which encourages a slightly reckless play style where he’s always better off charging.
Nice perk? Tad under 3 MW vs non-monsters, almost 11 MW vs monsters in average.
Bit more than perk
58% chance you flatten out any 12W monster(like my poor stegadons and bastiladons).
Ahhh....but depending on the enemies deployment and unit placement, he might leave himself expose by being so Killy! Especially if the foe has a reliable method of pumping out Mortal Wounds.
And so I understand the 58% chance, is that including rolls of 7 doing no MW?
Yes. Made 6x6 chart and put up MW's generated so for the 6 results of 7 put in 0.
I don't really see the problem with Kragnos' ability. It's solely focused on monsters, so that means you have to charge a monster to try to deal 36 MW.
So the counter to him is obvious : charge him first. Or put a screen of horde guys in front of your monsters during your turn. He can't fly nor retreat and charge, after all.
Binabik15 wrote: I hate GW's newer "contact the store" policy so much. I had damaged Dakkajets in the AI box, GW told me to contact the store, Wayland Games told me to contact GW...now I have at least one jet with Imperial rocket tails as shoota barrels.
It’s not a new policy though? At least, not unless “multiple decades old” is new, anyway.
I mean you can sorta get around it by taking the box to an actual Warhammer store and telling them you got it as a gift so you don’t have a receipt, but they’ll only give you store credit or replacement.
Legally, you have no contract with them, implied or otherwise, just with the retailer.
That said, legally you do have a contract with Wayland, which includes statutory protections that you actually can’t sign away. If they refuse to honour it they are a) being donkey-caves and b) opening themselves up to legal action. But then I’ve heard of Wayland doing dumber stuff before so it’s not a super surprise. Have you considered switching retailers? BTW, it’s right in their Ts&Cs “Nothing in these terms of sale affects your statutory rights (including your right to receive a refund in respect of any defective product we sell to you).”
What I don't like in Kragnos sheet is the dumb choice of stuff he hates. It's pretty much all Stormcast dragons-ish stuff (why it includes big cats with just tiny bit of drake blood, again???). Why he hates these and not say new Chaos Lord on drake? Ork boss on wyvern? Multiple elf and human characters on dragons? Why not Belakor, he looks very much dragonish? Or all Lizardmen? What about vampires and their zombie/skeleton dragons? It makes no sense and besides, anti-X faction rules (especially when X includes most of lovingly painted centrepieces that now turn into shelf warmers every time you play vs destruction) are just terrible rule writing...
Because it's a Maw-krusha and not a wyvern or have the DRAKES keyword at this time?
Irbis wrote: Multiple elf and human characters on dragons?
Because we haven't seen the 3rd edition rules yet which may give dragons the DRAKES keyword?
Irbis wrote: Why not Belakor, he looks very much dragonish? Or all Lizardmen? What about vampires and their zombie/skeleton dragons? It makes no sense and besides, anti-X faction rules (especially when X includes most of lovingly painted centrepieces that now turn into shelf warmers every time you play vs destruction) are just terrible rule writing...
Again, we've not seen the FAQs that will update everything to 3rd edition. Some of those may receive the DRAKES keyword via those FAQs (but I feel confident in saying that Be'lakor and the Seraphon will not).
Irbis wrote: What I don't like in Kragnos sheet is the dumb choice of stuff he hates. It's pretty much all Stormcast dragons-ish stuff (why it includes big cats with just tiny bit of drake blood, again???). Why he hates these and not say new Chaos Lord on drake? Ork boss on wyvern? Multiple elf and human characters on dragons? Why not Belakor, he looks very much dragonish? Or all Lizardmen? What about vampires and their zombie/skeleton dragons? It makes no sense and besides, anti-X faction rules (especially when X includes most of lovingly painted centrepieces that now turn into shelf warmers every time you play vs destruction) are just terrible rule writing...
Because he hates specifically those who belonged to the Draconith that were his sworn enemy in his time, and certainly Dracothion and its children because of its role for his capture ?
I mean, it's litterally explained in the Warhammer Community article.
Clearly, after all the wingless dragons stormcast ride are very different to the wingless dragon that the chaos lord rides. Night and day difference to the discerning god-like embodiment of destructive forces. He wouldn't want to vent his anger on things that just look like his hated foe after all. He only goes after big lizards with proven pedigrees, thank you very much.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Well, Be’lakor isn’t a Drake, Dragon, Serpent, Wybern, Snek, Danger Noodle or Nope Rope.
He was a bloke, now he’s a great ‘orrible Daemon Prince.
Lizardmen aren’t Dragons, just as Dragon’s aren’t Dinosaurs.
He is not, yes. Thing is, he looks much more like one than half of the stuff on the list. Ditto for lizardmen.
Sensible rule writing that has lore in mind would have him hate everything that looks vaguely draconic, not stuff (like Stormcast cats) that does not. What, he pulls Realmis Naturalis book out of his behind and goes 'Hmm, these are Seraphonics Models Overpricicus, so I can't hate them. Drats. Damn my 200% rational hate on precise scientific basis!'
Irbis wrote: Why he hates these and not say new Chaos Lord on drake?
Because it's a Karkadrak and doesn't have the DRAKES keyword?
Except this argument makes no sense because if it was just a matter of adding drakes keyword, they wouldn't need to list most of stormcast cavalry separately. Slap drakes keyword on all of them and job done. No, them being super precise means this is not a generic keyword and all the stuff I mentioned won't be getting them, FAQ or not.
Sarouan wrote: Because he hates specifically those who belonged to the Draconith that were his sworn enemy in his time, and certainly Dracothion and its children because of its role for his capture ?
I mean, it's litterally explained in the Warhammer Community article.
Yep, the lore matters in the rules sometimes. Even if it's an anecdotic rule, that's still the reason it's there.
If you actually bothered to read the lore, which you obviously didn't, you'd knew several of the stuff I mentioned ARE Draconith, while several of the things mentioned in Kragnos rules were created AFTER he was imprisoned, so he should have no idea what they are to begin with. That's why it makes no damn sense
Maybe go read lore now, then open your mouth when you actually have something to contribute?
I mean why can't he have a copy of Realmis Naturalis?
Or an innate magical/godly gift/sense that allows him to pick out draconic creatures from others, even if they might be several generations of breeding or evolution from them.
The idea of dragons/draconic creatures having a specific aura or such isn't anything new in general fantasy.
He might be really angry and insane but that doesn't mean he has to mindlessly attack every single thing that vaguely looks like a dragon all the time, esp in something like the mortal realms where there are loads of things that will look like a dragon without being a dragon.
Irbis wrote: Why he hates these and not say new Chaos Lord on drake?
Because it's a Karkadrak and doesn't have the DRAKES keyword?
Except this argument makes no sense because if it was just a matter of adding drakes keyword, they wouldn't need to list most of stormcast cavalry separately. Slap drakes keyword on all of them and job done. No, them being super precise means this is not a generic keyword and all the stuff I mentioned won't be getting them, FAQ or not.
Maybe it's because the DRAKES keyword will have additional rule which wouldn't apply to models with the STARDRAKES, DRACOTHS or DRACOLINES keywords. Maybe it's because a drake is a drake and a dracoth is not. With different keywords, the different models can be affected (or not) by different things.
If you actually bothered to read the lore, which you obviously didn't, you'd knew several of the stuff I mentioned ARE Draconith, while several of the things mentioned in Kragnos rules were created AFTER he was imprisoned, so he should have no idea what they are to begin with. That's why it makes no damn sense
Maybe go read lore now, then open your mouth when you actually have something to contribute?
If you actually read the lore in Stomcast Eternal about Stardrakes and Dracoths, you would have known they are way older than Stormcast Eternals (clearly hinted page 34 and 35 from the Stormcast Eternal Battletome). So they can be Draconith for all that matters.
As for "normal dragons" that humans and aelves ride...it's actually only the aelves so far and only one remains in Cities of Sigmar (black dragon). The lore doesn't tie them to Draconith - actually, black dragons are said to be nearly extinct since the Age of Chaos and now they are born from eggs infused with dark magic and sacrifices. They can verily not be considered the same as drakes anymore. The others in Grand Alliance Order book at the time of 1st edition doesn't either (no real surprise here) - and since they disappeared entirely, they may not even matter anymore anyway.
Karkadrak and Mawkrusha have nothing to do with drakes in the lore either. Karkadraks are just reptiles native to the Omnipoints (Slaves to Darkness battletome page 30). Mawkrushas don't have a lot more about them either. It's not because the name ends in "drak" that it's a drake.
And zombie dragons (there's no skeleton dragon so far in AoS, mind you) ? Nonetheless that they may not very well be Draconith anyway, well...they're zombies. Why Kragnos would care about a corpse ?
So you should read first what is actually written in the lore before trying to force what you want to see as the truth to others.
To be honest, so far, we don't really know what really counts as a drake unless it already has that keyword anyway. Seems like it's really tied to Dracothion's children so far...
Kragnos is especially enraged by zombie drakes, he killed them once before and they dare defy his might by coming back? Kragnos SMASH!
You can justify whatever you want, it's character in a story. I just find the way they chose to apply it in rules very clumsy and funny.
Yep, it's a matter of perspective. Which is why it's funny to see Irbis getting "all angry" about it as well that Karkadraks don't have the DRAKE keyword.
In the end, GW is like the Dungeon Master for AoS. If they say dwarves fly, the only answer here is "yes sir ! At what height ?".
It's funny because dwarves actually fly in AoS.
Automatically Appended Next Post: New article on Warhammer Community and GOD THE SPOILERS !
There's theories that GW has dropped a whole campaign book just to speed this up. I even recall some hint of the Everqueen getting her own book from rumours from a long way back. It wouldn't shock me if GW has sped things up even more and squished two books together and is now having to drop spoilers becuase of what's coming on this weekend.
Sadly big edition releases are one of the few things it seems GW cannot move around much if at all in the way they are setup. So when it comes it comes even if that means things get a bit squashed beforehand.
I think it's safe to assume that if it doesn't look like a bullish primitive monster until next saturday, it has 99,99 % chance to be a Sigmar...Stormcast Eternal.
Yep, looks like the new mage gal in the Dominion Box.
Binabik15 wrote: I hate GW's newer "contact the store" policy so much. I had damaged Dakkajets in the AI box, GW told me to contact the store, Wayland Games told me to contact GW...now I have at least one jet with Imperial rocket tails as shoota barrels.
I really like the witch hunter family, but my plan to use them and the Cursed City guy to reinforce my Warcry band is shot to pieces anyway (with the CC situation).
Aboit the AoS starter I'm not sure I'll get it, haven't fully painted a single Stormcast, ever, and I never liked Hobgoblins. Gorilla boyz 4 life.
Do you have any storm cast? Trying to find some liberators currently
Binabik15 wrote: I hate GW's newer "contact the store" policy so much. I had damaged Dakkajets in the AI box, GW told me to contact the store, Wayland Games told me to contact GW...now I have at least one jet with Imperial rocket tails as shoota barrels.
Given the price of those little planes I wouldn't put up with that.
In the UK, the retailer is responsible for returns/replacement/refund. The manufacturer might give you one, but they don't have to, they can tell you to go via the retailer, but the retailer can't ignore you. I'd tell Wayland you already asked GW and it's Wayland's responsibility, if they still don't step up you could tell GW the retailer isn't behaving or I imagine there's people you can report them to.
Yeah, Wayland telling you to contact GW is lazy on their part. The typical pattern is that they take the damaged product, send it back to GW, GW sends them a new box or credits them. It is, yes, some work on Wayland's part, but it's entirely on them as the final handler of the product to make things right.
GW, for all its flaws, takes the handling of their product really seriously. If a bit is missing or broken by the time you open the box, they typically try to make it right.
Anyway. Interesting to see the stuff coming forth for Kragnos and the future of AoS. I have ZERO interest in the Dominion box, mostly because I know it'll sell out fast, and all the pieces of it will be available later. I'll happily munch popcorn as the community makes a big fuss about it. Ra ra scalpers, ra ra GW, ra ra limited product (that isn't, it's just limited at that price point, everything will be available later, just like it was for 40k)
Typically, yes, but they just told me to contact my local store about it even though it's potentially a fault of the product itself with the new skeletons femurs breaking so easily.
DaveC wrote: Probably a new Knight Incantor variant
Doubtful. Knight-Incantor is already a well covered profile.
Might be a variant model, rather than a new character profile. The current Incantors are locked into the magazine and two main starters, so I'd assume GW will make the Incantor available in a different form going forward.
Assuming that at least the smallest of the new starter sets will follow 40K's Recruit Edition, we ought to see each side having a solid battleline unit and a leader character. A Knight-Incantor wouldn't be a terrible choice...
DaveC wrote: Probably a new Knight Incantor variant
Doubtful. Knight-Incantor is already a well covered profile.
Liberators as well, and yet we will have Vindictors.
Totally a new mage-type variant. Or a named character. Or both. We'll know saturday, anyway.
Looks like they redacted the article on Warhammer Community to remove the spoilers...
Spoiler:
about the return of Grungni and the end of Kragnos book with Gardus, Morathi-Khaine and Kroak's combined efforts managing to repel his assault on Excelsis at a cost
DaveC wrote: Probably a new Knight Incantor variant
Doubtful. Knight-Incantor is already a well covered profile.
Might be a variant model, rather than a new character profile. The current Incantors are locked into the magazine and two main starters, so I'd assume GW will make the Incantor available in a different form going forward.
They have.
Evocator boxed set wrote:
Key Features
Imbued with the power of the storm – literal shock-troops of Sigmar
Armed with a choice of stormstave and tempest blade or grandstave
Includes options for Evocator-Prime and Knight-Incantor models
Assuming that at least the smallest of the new starter sets will follow 40K's Recruit Edition, we ought to see each side having a solid battleline unit and a leader character. A Knight-Incantor wouldn't be a terrible choice...
But it would be a wildly overdone option.
If anything, it is more likely to be something Priesty.
I'm mostly upset that due to Kragnos going stompy stompy on dragons, that's why we don't have more dragon models. I just built a Stardrake and it's a FANTASTIC kit, and has all the features of a proper dragon (wings and four legs, big horns, proper face, etc).
Many fantasy settings have to choose a line of how many dragons they want, from no dragons to many dragons, and it looks like AoS is closer to the 'no dragons' part of the line, which makes me sad.
drbored wrote: I'm mostly upset that due to Kragnos going stompy stompy on dragons, that's why we don't have more dragon models. I just built a Stardrake and it's a FANTASTIC kit, and has all the features of a proper dragon (wings and four legs, big horns, proper face, etc).
Many fantasy settings have to choose a line of how many dragons they want, from no dragons to many dragons, and it looks like AoS is closer to the 'no dragons' part of the line, which makes me sad.
I just want more dragons.
I love Dragons but there are quite a few in AOs (the WC article notwithstanding)
A Dragon God
Various Dragon God-Beasts
Black Dragons
Stormcast Dragons
Zombie Dragons
Ordo Draconis Dragons
It definitely looks like Kragnos' beef is with dracothian-associated dragonoids, which would come with a certain magical 'attunement' to them per say. It is very much a case of making perfect sense if one knows the fluff.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
drbored wrote: I'm mostly upset that due to Kragnos going stompy stompy on dragons, that's why we don't have more dragon models. I just built a Stardrake and it's a FANTASTIC kit, and has all the features of a proper dragon (wings and four legs, big horns, proper face, etc).
Many fantasy settings have to choose a line of how many dragons they want, from no dragons to many dragons, and it looks like AoS is closer to the 'no dragons' part of the line, which makes me sad.
I just want more dragons.
Yeah, I also want AoS to have some basic dragon stuff. Just dragons, make them verbnouner dragons is they really want to be anal about their weird naming fetish, but still just dragons. All we really have is the black dragon, since the high elf ones are gone. Zombie dragon too, but with nothing in the game remotely resembling its living form despite supposedly existing. Like the state of Orruks there is no baseline so the special variants don't mean anything.
Evocator boxed set wrote:
Key Features
Imbued with the power of the storm – literal shock-troops of Sigmar
Armed with a choice of stormstave and tempest blade or grandstave
Includes options for Evocator-Prime and Knight-Incantor models
I had no idea that was part of the Evocators kit. Cheers, Kanluwen!
drbored wrote: I'm mostly upset that due to Kragnos going stompy stompy on dragons, that's why we don't have more dragon models. I just built a Stardrake and it's a FANTASTIC kit, and has all the features of a proper dragon (wings and four legs, big horns, proper face, etc).
Many fantasy settings have to choose a line of how many dragons they want, from no dragons to many dragons, and it looks like AoS is closer to the 'no dragons' part of the line, which makes me sad.
I just want more dragons.
I love Dragons but there are quite a few in AOs (the WC article notwithstanding)
A Dragon God
Various Dragon God-Beasts
Black Dragons
Stormcast Dragons
Zombie Dragons
Ordo Draconis Dragons
No model
No models
Terrible garbage model.
1 model
Doesn't really look like the skeleton of a dragon.
AoS needs more dragon models!! Heck its actually most more than its gained. 2 elf dragons (wood and high) have vanished (big surprise on the high elf one vanishing as it was not that old a model); Forgeworld has lost all their dragons (magma, warpfire, others).
There is 1 army that I'm still sold on buying into even though I have "enough armies" in Aos and that is the Shadow Aelves who have been hinted at having a draconic influence in design.
That said the lore also has others; eg in the first Gotrek book there's a whole faction in the Realm of Death using bone construct dragons as mounts. Not Ossiarchs,but the same concept.
I also would expect Nagash to have full skeletal dragons; not just zombie dragons and terrorghasts.
Overread wrote: There's theories that GW has dropped a whole campaign book just to speed this up. I even recall some hint of the Everqueen getting her own book from rumours from a long way back. It wouldn't shock me if GW has sped things up even more and squished two books together and is now having to drop spoilers becuase of what's coming on this weekend.
Sadly big edition releases are one of the few things it seems GW cannot move around much if at all in the way they are setup. So when it comes it comes even if that means things get a bit squashed beforehand.
Leadtimes. Why people keep forgetting those. What reason gw would have over year ago to squish? Corona etc wouldn't be reason. Books were done by the time that might be reason.
Lead times for prints aren't a year, or don't have to be. Their Print on Demand books are typically done within 3 month windows give or take a few weeks. That's more than enough time at the start of 2020 to have had decided that they didn't have 6 months to release everything before mid year and to then squash two books into one at the end and still have enough time to make an order.
It also seems... odd to cram Kragnos, Alarielle and Kroak into a book together in the way they have. Each of those is technically a 'God' tier player in AoS and previous books have tried to keep the focus on the actions of one (Morathi, Teclis, Belakor) though will admit Teclis also played with Nagash.
Seriously wish we'd get a Kroak warscroll drop this week like we've had Kragnos'....
They frequently do a run of 5 short stories. They probably just needed a fifth character and Alarielle was the best choice. Unlike with the end times I haven't felt like there was a noticeable gap in the narrative yet. I think this is just conspiracy theories gone wild.
I'm surprised WarCom spoiled Broken Realms: Kragnos even though it's not up for preorder yet. That seems weird to me, especially since GW's has been willing to delay their release schedule a bunch this past year. You'd think they'd just push things back a bit more to give folks a couple of weeks to digest the product once it's actually released...
Do they just not expect these books to sell copies? If not then why go through the huge effort of producing them and not just put all the info in the WarCom article in the rulebook for 3.0?
Cripple X wrote: I'm surprised WarCom spoiled Broken Realms: Kragnos even though it's not up for preorder yet. That seems weird to me, especially since GW's has been willing to delay their release schedule a bunch this past year. You'd think they'd just push things back a bit more to give folks a couple of weeks to digest the product once it's actually released...
Do they just not expect these books to sell copies? If not then why go through the huge effort of producing them and not just put all the info in the WarCom article in the rulebook for 3.0?
Everything revolves around new editions of the main game. Even with all the pandemic/lockdown stuff both have dropped more or less on time. Compared to 3.0 GW couldn't give a monkey's about BR: Kragnos sales.
I understand your point, it just seems like a lot of effort wasted as far as all the work that went into BR: Kragnos, you know? I'm sure people will pick it up and enjoy it, but it just seems like a big "Who cares?" on GW's part as far as the effort their own staff put into the book. Maybe that's just me though?
Cripple X wrote: I'm surprised WarCom spoiled Broken Realms: Kragnos even though it's not up for preorder yet. That seems weird to me, especially since GW's has been willing to delay their release schedule a bunch this past year. You'd think they'd just push things back a bit more to give folks a couple of weeks to digest the product once it's actually released...
Do they just not expect these books to sell copies? If not then why go through the huge effort of producing them and not just put all the info in the WarCom article in the rulebook for 3.0?
What's the spoilers? It sounds like the stuff about Destruction and Kragnos is just background info about what the story is about. We weren't told "Kragnos was stopped" or "He destroyed the city", just that the city is already weakened by skaven and slaanesh, before his horde even showed up
Cripple X wrote: I'm surprised WarCom spoiled Broken Realms: Kragnos even though it's not up for preorder yet. That seems weird to me, especially since GW's has been willing to delay their release schedule a bunch this past year. You'd think they'd just push things back a bit more to give folks a couple of weeks to digest the product once it's actually released...
Do they just not expect these books to sell copies? If not then why go through the huge effort of producing them and not just put all the info in the WarCom article in the rulebook for 3.0?
What's the spoilers? It sounds like the stuff about Destruction and Kragnos is just background info about what the story is about. We weren't told "Kragnos was stopped" or "He destroyed the city", just that the city is already weakened by skaven and slaanesh, before his horde even showed up
They changed it. There was an earlier version that spoiled a bunch of stuff like the Gromthi "mystery".
Cripple X wrote: I'm surprised WarCom spoiled Broken Realms: Kragnos even though it's not up for preorder yet. That seems weird to me, especially since GW's has been willing to delay their release schedule a bunch this past year. You'd think they'd just push things back a bit more to give folks a couple of weeks to digest the product once it's actually released...
Do they just not expect these books to sell copies? If not then why go through the huge effort of producing them and not just put all the info in the WarCom article in the rulebook for 3.0?
What's the spoilers? It sounds like the stuff about Destruction and Kragnos is just background info about what the story is about. We weren't told "Kragnos was stopped" or "He destroyed the city", just that the city is already weakened by skaven and slaanesh, before his horde even showed up
It said the fate of the city before, but they edited that part out (and some others) once they realize due to social media complaining. It seems like the article was prewriten and scheduled to go online somewhere between BR:Kragnos and 3rd Edition, but with the corona and the messed timeline it no longer fit the current state of the game.
They've edited the article since it went live this morning. A lot of them that were initially present, they actually removed during the day. It's been noted in this thread here.
BELOW ARE THE SPOILERS THAT WERE ORIGINALLY PRESENT IN THE ARTICLE. READ AT YOUR OWN RISK:
Spoiler:
They removed the fate of Excelsis at the end of Kragnos's siege, the part that Lord Kroak played in relieving the siege, and the return of Grungni.
I'm not mad that they spoiled it. The article clearly said read at your own risk. I'm just sort of baffled that they did. I think Yoid is right. It must have planned to be posted after BR: Kragnos released, but I guess it costs more money to delay 3.0 than it does to sell BR:Kragnos and then 3.0
Oooh, okay. Yeah, the Warcom team should have caught that sooner. I was hoping we would get "Gromthi" as a model for one of the Broken Realm books, but he didn't make the cut. Maybe in third edition...
Spoiler:
Wait, Grothi was Grugni?!? I was sure it was the White Dwarf. Was Grugni even gone? He appears in person in the Eight Lamentation books...?
Is it really a "budget" version? With most online discounts they're about the same cost. You're saving a few bucks, but having then to deal with resin vs plastic.
Is it really a "budget" version? With most online discounts they're about the same cost. You're saving a few bucks, but having then to deal with resin vs plastic.
Eh, you have a point. Call it an alternate version, then.
Cripple X wrote: I'm surprised WarCom spoiled Broken Realms: Kragnos even though it's not up for preorder yet. That seems weird to me, especially since GW's has been willing to delay their release schedule a bunch this past year. You'd think they'd just push things back a bit more to give folks a couple of weeks to digest the product once it's actually released...
Do they just not expect these books to sell copies? If not then why go through the huge effort of producing them and not just put all the info in the WarCom article in the rulebook for 3.0?
A) not all cares about spoilers anyway b) they markedit so those who care can avoid c) the spoiler was so little either it's insignificant or story is so tiny it's not worth anything. Half a movie trailer spoils movie more.
I've never even heard of this. It looks like a Beastman but for some reason is now the de facto head of Destruction, with Orruks paying fealty.
Then I look at his datasheet and see a 2+ armor save on a literally naked Centaur, presumably because of a shield which would barely cover his torso.
This is the first I've heard of this cringy character and I'm already aching for a retcon.
Did they literally make this character up ad-hoc just now?
Basically yes, they created him from nothing which is one of the reasons of why the old world setting was ditched in favor of the much more open setting of AoS.
I'm guessing the 2+ armor save is because he's a demi god.
For what its worth I love the design of him myself, I just wish he had a tie-in faction of similar design rather than being surrounded by Orcs and Goblins.
ImAGeek wrote: It wasn’t clear that it was spoilers for the book that isn’t out yet. It just seemed like it meant for the series so far.
Spoilers are for stuff that aren't out yet.
PS. Darth Vade is Luke's father. There's spoiler for you.
(also the relevant part for Kragnos was also specifically marked. If you have title "Kragnos" then you kind of should be able to figure out spoilers for Kragnos start from there even if you assume spoilers are also spoilers for already old stuff)
And if you are worried about spoilers for old stuff you couldn't have even watched AOS3 announcement...it had spoilers for already released stuff as well! GW couldn't release any articles. Can't have any 40k stuff for 9e as there's spoilers for 9e rulebook as well!
I've never even heard of this. It looks like a Beastman but for some reason is now the de facto head of Destruction, with Orruks paying fealty.
Then I look at his datasheet and see a 2+ armor save on a literally naked Centaur, presumably because of a shield which would barely cover his torso.
This is the first I've heard of this cringy character and I'm already aching for a retcon.
Did they literally make this character up ad-hoc just now?
Heaven forbid they actually make new characters for their setting rather than namedropping and parading the corpses of old ones around in order to score nostalgia points.
AOS needs more of its own characters. They should never have even used most of the old ones as ascended deities in the first place.
Basically yes, they created him from nothing which is one of the reasons of why the old world setting was ditched in favor of the much more open setting of AoS.
unlike the historically existing characters like Karl Franz and Nagash in the Old World setting..which were also created from nothing.
Anyway, the article was labelled spoilers, if someone is this deathly afraid of getting spoiled on world's most predictable fantasy ever, yeah, just don't read past.
I am very curious what they will do with dwarfs, I think blending them into one soup would be the worst option.
Bit disappointed with Kragnos so far.
Main profile is decent, definitely a beatstick style character.
No real buffs to those around him and he can actually be a liability too.
Also, 10" movement, no longshanks style rules etc means he's slow and will often get tarpitted.
He also has a massive lack of keywords.
Add in the fact that almost every destruction ability or spell only targets keyword units and you can't really do much.
No mortal wound save on a god? OK.
Very specific target ability? Almost useless.
His damage output is good, his charge ability is insanely random at best.
If he's above 500 points I highly doubt you'll see this guy in any form of competitive setting.
Really hoping he has his own sub faction in the book that can benefit him or its another great sculpt gone to waste.
Heaven forbid they actually make new characters for their setting rather than namedropping and parading the corpses of old ones around in order to score nostalgia points.
AOS needs more of its own characters. They should never have even used most of the old ones as ascended deities in the first place.
It amazes me how entitled some people are - kicking off about things in AoS being new or NOT as they were in Fantasy. Had a whole discussion in a FB group where someone literally threw a tantrum because GW weren't making it so that the new models for AoS ranked up on square bases for Fantasy - literally throwing a fit that products designed for a different game system didn't rank up for a long discontinued product and having a sulk that GW weren't supporting it. Absolutely unreal.
With regards to older characters?
I appreciate the callback to older aesthetics. I appreciate exploring the Realms history a bit more rather than having dropped us off with no idea what happened. And I feel some races SHOULD have older characters brought back - Elf types, Undead, Daemons and Seraphon in particular are sort of candidates for that.
Other races, not so much. We don't need to see the old world Empire characters. Or even the Dwarf characters. Their stories are done. The semi-immortal races it makes sense for because they literally don't change or adapt like the younger races do.
Cronch wrote:
unlike the historically existing characters like Karl Franz and Nagash in the Old World setting..which were also created from nothing.
Totally true! But I think its hard to.argue that setting wise AoS is much better introducing new characters concepts.and races than the old world was.
The advantage of being its own thing, compared to Warhammer’s origins as a sort of unifying rules set in which any 28ish Mm models could be used.
Not to mention The Old World was just a single planet. Sure they could’ve done something with Ind, Cathay and Nippon - but how do you have them scrapping with The Empire, Bretonnia etc? It’s a long and dangerous journey just to pick a fight, no?
AoS? Much more flexibility because Literally Anything Can Happen Because Magic. I know some think that’s a cop out, but I’d say it’s more about the implementation than the action.
The halo, furs and hammer are very similar to the Warhammer animations reveal but this mini seems to have a helmet on - this might be a rear view image going by the position of the hammer hand although the “eagle” ears are on the right (as viewed) in both.
Kanluwen wrote: They've been hinting at this box being similar to Indomitus rather than a starter set. Could very well just be that it has alternate heads.
Kanluwen wrote: They've been hinting at this box being similar to Indomitus rather than a starter set. Could very well just be that it has alternate heads.
Great does it mean sold out drama again?
If they have any sense they'll Made To Order it again, but AoS doesn't print money the way Marines do.
DaveC wrote: The halo, furs and hammer are very similar to the Warhammer animations reveal but this mini seems to have a helmet on - this might be a rear view image going by the position of the hammer hand although the “eagle” ears are on the right (as viewed) in both.
Not sure of that's a helmet, they have previewed some of the alternate heads, one of which has the corn rows/dreadlocks/whatever you call them.
Kanluwen wrote: They've been hinting at this box being similar to Indomitus rather than a starter set. Could very well just be that it has alternate heads.
You simply do not want to miss out on this amazing set, so it’s important to mention that, as it’s a special launch box to celebrate the new edition, it won’t be around forever.
DaveC wrote: The halo, furs and hammer are very similar to the Warhammer animations reveal but this mini seems to have a helmet on - this might be a rear view image going by the position of the hammer hand although the “eagle” ears are on the right (as viewed) in both.
Not sure of that's a helmet, they have previewed some of the alternate heads, one of which has the corn rows/dreadlocks/whatever you call them.
The placement of the spikes is very similar to the new Annihilators helmet and it has a similar profile but I do think it has alt heads.
Kanluwen wrote: They've been hinting at this box being similar to Indomitus rather than a starter set. Could very well just be that it has alternate heads.
Great does it mean sold out drama again?
Probably. Heavens forbid people ever just wait for things rather than playing StockHammer.
Cronch wrote:
unlike the historically existing characters like Karl Franz and Nagash in the Old World setting..which were also created from nothing.
Totally true! But I think its hard to.argue that setting wise AoS is much better introducing new characters concepts.and races than the old world was.
I dont really see why. Most of the factions introduced in AOS could have easily been added to whfb
Yeah, it totally would have been easy to introduce a faction of skyfaring dwarfs or bone-constructs that are engaging in what is effectively calcium farming...
If you've read my post more carefully instead of rushing in with your usual passive-aggressive snarky remarks, youd see that i said most, not all factions.
Ossiarch would have been really easy to add to WHFB. nagash wakes up and creates new minions. Doesnt take much more than that.
No arguments about skydwarves and stormcast. They wouldn't fit in the setting without major modifications (and to be honest, the KO don't really fit in AOs either lol)
Old World Dwarves had most of the tech AoS ones did, its just that they heavily regulated it and refused to use much of it. Save in the high seas where they did have metal clad boats and steam ships.
Thing is Dwarves and Elves in that setting were very much on the down; their lands sieged, most of their original holdings lost and dwindling populations. They were factions who had peaked and fallen on hard times and were resigned to their own version of end times whilst humanity had swelled to fill the void.
In AoS Elves and Dwarves are equal to humans. They all suffered during the Age of Chaos, but all are rebuilding and fighting for their corner in AoS. There isn't a faction that really has the doom-gloom "we are slowly coming to our end"
Even Idoneth are not resigned to defeat and are active in stealing souls to advance themselves .
Dwarves in WFB had helicopters and Zeppelins. Bonereapers could easily be the Nagash brand of undead (which they are in AoS anyway).
WFB had plenty of space for weird stuff coming in from the edges of the known world. Let's not pretend like AoS came to be because the creatives within GW felt constrained by a setting that had Eagle chariots and cyborg mutant rats.
Cronch wrote:
unlike the historically existing characters like Karl Franz and Nagash in the Old World setting..which were also created from nothing.
Totally true! But I think its hard to.argue that setting wise AoS is much better introducing new characters concepts.and races than the old world was.
The advantage of being its own thing, compared to Warhammer’s origins as a sort of unifying rules set in which any 28ish Mm models could be used.
Not to mention The Old World was just a single planet. Sure they could’ve done something with Ind, Cathay and Nippon - but how do you have them scrapping with The Empire, Bretonnia etc? It’s a long and dangerous journey just to pick a fight, no?
AoS? Much more flexibility because Literally Anything Can Happen Because Magic. I know some think that’s a cop out, but I’d say it’s more about the implementation than the action.
Well they did use that "cop out" more often than not in WHFB. Wood elves had forest portal, Dark Elves underworld tunnel that made travel much faster, and iirc lizardmen had some kind of portals also.
streetsamurai wrote: If you've read my post more carefully instead of rushing in with your usual passive-aggressive snarky remarks, youd see that i said most, not all factions.
Ossiarch would have been really easy to add to WHFB. nagash wakes up and creates new minions. Doesnt take much more than that.
No arguments about skydwarves and stormcast. They wouldn't fit in the setting without major modifications (and to be honest, the KO don't really fit in AOs either lol)
Well, skyships were already a thing, as were the metal facemasks. The specific Fallout-style vault suits would have stood out, but they do anyway.
Stormcast, would've just required Sigmar acting as a god, maybe making a deal with the Gods of Law to stop a chaos incursion or Nagash. It would've dulled the ongoing mystery if Sigmar was actually properly a god in the setting, but could have been finessed several ways. 'Warriors of Law' was already a concept floating around in the setting (if an atrophied one). That isn't where Sigmarines ultimately ended up, but the difference is basically serial numbers.
a simple time skip after the End Times could have cleared a lot of issues right up.
streetsamurai wrote: If you've read my post more carefully instead of rushing in with your usual passive-aggressive snarky remarks, youd see that i said most, not all factions.
Then show your work. Because this commentary has been happening for ages, and it usually involves some convoluted nonsense to "make it fit" that destroys the identity of the army in question.
Idoneth, for example, don't fit into WHFB without some massive reworking of things. We know that "Sea Elves" were a thing there, but they didn't go around enslaving beasts to their will and keep themselves hidden.
Sylvaneth don't fit into WHFB without, again, massive reworks. The closest thing we have to the Revenants were the Tree-Kin, animated hulks of trees within the bounds of Athel Loren that have an Elf spirit animating them.
The more generic the concept of the AoS army, the easier it potentially is to make fit into WHFB...but even then it's not a surefire thing with any faction that isn't Chaos or Destruction.
Ossiarch would have been really easy to add to WHFB. nagash wakes up and creates new minions. Doesnt take much more than that.
Yeah, and let's remember how "well-received" the Morghast were in WHFB during the End Times?
There was a lot of complaining about that aesthetic and concept right off the bat(no vampire count puns intended).
No arguments about skydwarves and stormcast. They wouldn't fit in the setting without major modifications (and to be honest, the KO don't really fit in AOs either lol)
Overlords fit in AoS just fine since Realmgates are a thing.
Well they did use that "cop out" more often than not in WHFB. Wood elves had forest portal, Dark Elves underworld tunnel that made travel much faster, and iirc lizardmen had some kind of portals also.
The "forest portal" you're alluding to has been around for a looong time in the lore...and it's less "portal", more "root network".
People got mad when they added Ogre Kingdoms to WFB. "Oh, I guess they were there all along then?" "OMG muh retcons, GW so dumb" etc etc. Adding something like KO or Stormcast would have been unbearable.
Lets not forget that when Morghasts were "added" GW still had a LOT of old legacy models. Gamers always complain when new things appear when there are old things still in need of an update.
Even the new Necrons in 40K got complaints of "well what about Eldar" and "Necrons didn't need it" and such.
GW could have added almost everything they have now into Old World in some form; as noted just a 100 year time advance after the End Times would have done it. However this is beating a dead and old horse; Old World went and AoS came and it was more of a marketing and management choice than it was anything to do with the lore. Heck Old World had several major armies that were never ever developed outside of faction name references.
streetsamurai wrote: If you've read my post more carefully instead of rushing in with your usual passive-aggressive snarky remarks, youd see that i said most, not all factions.
Then show your work. Because this commentary has been happening for ages, and it usually involves some convoluted nonsense to "make it fit" that destroys the identity of the army in question.
Idoneth, for example, don't fit into WHFB without some massive reworking of things. We know that "Sea Elves" were a thing there, but they didn't go around enslaving beasts to their will and keep themselves hidden.
Sylvaneth don't fit into WHFB without, again, massive reworks. The closest thing we have to the Revenants were the Tree-Kin, animated hulks of trees within the bounds of Athel Loren that have an Elf spirit animating them.
The more generic the concept of the AoS army, the easier it potentially is to make fit into WHFB...but even then it's not a surefire thing with any faction that isn't Chaos or Destruction.
Ossiarch would have been really easy to add to WHFB. nagash wakes up and creates new minions. Doesnt take much more than that.
Yeah, and let's remember how "well-received" the Morghast were in WHFB during the End Times?
There was a lot of complaining about that aesthetic and concept right off the bat(no vampire count puns intended).
No arguments about skydwarves and stormcast. They wouldn't fit in the setting without major modifications (and to be honest, the KO don't really fit in AOs either lol)
Overlords fit in AoS just fine since Realmgates are a thing.
Well they did use that "cop out" more often than not in WHFB. Wood elves had forest portal, Dark Elves underworld tunnel that made travel much faster, and iirc lizardmen had some kind of portals also.
The "forest portal" you're alluding to has been around for a looong time in the lore...and it's less "portal", more "root network".
There always was retcons in whfb. Adding idoneth, sylvaneth and Osseriarch wouldn't necessitate drastic changes to the setting. At least, far less than OK required
But anyway, im not interested in debating with you since you have this weird fetishism of always aggressively defending GW against any perceived criticisms (even if no criticisms are intended)
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JSG wrote: People got mad when they added Ogre Kingdoms to WFB. "Oh, I guess they were there all along then?" "OMG muh retcons, GW so dumb" etc etc. Adding something like KO or Stormcast would have been unbearable.
Who got mad?? A few nerds on the internet?? OK was a very popular army if im not mistaken
His Master's Voice wrote: Dwarves in WFB had helicopters and Zeppelins. Bonereapers could easily be the Nagash brand of undead (which they are in AoS anyway).
WFB had plenty of space for weird stuff coming in from the edges of the known world. Let's not pretend like AoS came to be because the creatives within GW felt constrained by a setting that had Eagle chariots and cyborg mutant rats.
Yes, and every time they did anything remotely new and out of ordinary people complained about it being too different.
Old World had nothing in it that made it worth keeping over AoS. AoS has nothing in it that is worth preserving over The Old World. Both are trashy fantasy settings existing only to sell toys.
I remember, back in the day, suggesting that dwarfs may deserve some of the interesting fantasy stuff that other factions had. Cavalry, monstrous infantry, monsters. Any sort of big centerpiece model that wasn't 2 dwarfs holding a shield for another dwarf to stand on...
There was some pretty harsh backlash to that thought on the forums I frequented.
In so far as what would have and wouldn't have fit I know I would have been very displeased to see alot of the stuff associated with AoS to have come out for old Warhammer Fantasy. I mean I remember there were rumours of what would end up being the storm casts for a year or two (at least) before they came out of space marine style knights and everyone was just hating it.
Goodness, I still hate it- it's only with the redesign around the conrer that I'm willing to take look at them with fresh eyes, but I still think the lore is atrocious, as is sticking Sigmar's name on a faction that looks like the dream army of Lorenzo Lupo or the republic of Remas
I mean I think AoS has incredible design potential because it's story and setting ideas are so open ended. But the quality of those stories suffers because things aren't as detailed or exact as they were in the Old World setting.
It's hard for me to see a happy merger of the two, honestly.
His Master's Voice wrote: Dwarves in WFB had helicopters and Zeppelins. Bonereapers could easily be the Nagash brand of undead (which they are in AoS anyway).
WFB had plenty of space for weird stuff coming in from the edges of the known world. Let's not pretend like AoS came to be because the creatives within GW felt constrained by a setting that had Eagle chariots and cyborg mutant rats.
Yes, and every time they did anything remotely new and out of ordinary people complained about it being too different.
Old World had nothing in it that made it worth keeping over AoS. AoS has nothing in it that is worth preserving over The Old World. Both are trashy fantasy settings existing only to sell toys.
Good, good Let the hate flow through you! Soon you will complete your training, soon you will become the master of the dark arts!
Kanluwen wrote: They've been hinting at this box being similar to Indomitus rather than a starter set. Could very well just be that it has alternate heads.
You simply do not want to miss out on this amazing set, so it’s important to mention that, as it’s a special launch box to celebrate the new edition, it won’t be around forever.
Oh Snap speaking of hate here comes some.
My interest on getting this dropped 99% Thanks for another limited piece of crap!
Kanluwen wrote: They've been hinting at this box being similar to Indomitus rather than a starter set. Could very well just be that it has alternate heads.
His Master's Voice wrote: Dwarves in WFB had helicopters and Zeppelins. Bonereapers could easily be the Nagash brand of undead (which they are in AoS anyway).
WFB had plenty of space for weird stuff coming in from the edges of the known world. Let's not pretend like AoS came to be because the creatives within GW felt constrained by a setting that had Eagle chariots and cyborg mutant rats.
Yes, and every time they did anything remotely new and out of ordinary people complained about it being too different.
Old World had nothing in it that made it worth keeping over AoS. AoS has nothing in it that is worth preserving over The Old World. Both are trashy fantasy settings existing only to sell toys.
What *other* Fantasy setting would be better?
They're all pretty much the same; Humans, Elves, Dwarves, Orcs, Goblins, Undead, some sort of giant creatures (Ogres, Dragons, giant beasts), and that's the base.
Also interesting to note that Gotrek (who from what we know of his past in the Old World, was at one time an engineer) shows surprising familiarity with a lot of the designs of the Khadorans of AoS. Granted Gotrek has always had this other-worldly element of being the best of a dwarf that a dwarf could be; but at the same time it further shows that a lot of what the Khadorans have isn't outlandish by Old World dwarf standards. It's just things that they had allowed to go to their fullest rather than being hidden behind laws and restrictions and guilds.
The core concept of pistons driven by expanding gas in turn driving a rotary mechanism remains the same from steam engines to modern cars. So there is a good degree of sense to that on a certain level.
Anyways, in regards to BR books being relevant in 3rd, I would expect they will. Consider that PA remains relevant until the content is superceded by a new codex, for example. I would say the difference is in AoS content historically trending to age much better and campaign book updates being far more effective at addressing issues and keeping armies going for long periods without new battletomes. Nurgle is perhaps the best example, with the oldest tome that got a new lease on life thanks to Wrath of the Everchosen, then two of it's least viable models being catapulted into relevance with BR Teclis and pulling a number of previously less-optimal choices along behind them.
I'd argue the fact that their whole technology is based on aether-gold, substance that 100% was not in the Old World means he might get the mechanical parts (a rotating rifle or a steering surface on an airship are fairly basic concepts engineering-wise), but he should not be able to figure out how they're actually powered beyond "they shoot magic plasma".
Also, I don't hate the settings for either the old world or AoS, but neither is something that'll..stand the test of time as fiction, when all is said and done. Tolkien or LeGuin they're not
I remember the backlash agaisnt ogre kingdoms. Because they didn't fitted in the old world (Even when you had dark elves in Naggarond participating without a problem), that they were retconing the better human ogres like the mordheim one, etc....
WHFB fans were by the most parts extremely adverse to any kind of change or new introduction to the setting. But I expect AoS ones to be the same in 10 years. Is just the natural evolution. When something is new, everything is possible and fresh, but the more time pases, the more things are set in stone.
Which is why it's not a bad thing for a setting to "die". At some point, especially in a game, you're just treading water instead of making anything worthwhile. 40k is a prime example imo, but that's just me.
Galas wrote: I remember the backlash agaisnt ogre kingdoms. Because they didn't fitted in the old world (Even when you had dark elves in Naggarond participating without a problem), that they were retconing the better human ogres like the mordheim one, etc....
WHFB fans were by the most parts extremely adverse to any kind of change or new introduction to the setting. But I expect AoS ones to be the same in 10 years. Is just the natural evolution. When something is new, everything is possible and fresh, but the more time pases, the more things are set in stone.
+
Heck I'm already concerned that GW might change Daughters of Khaine and make them back into Dark Elves. The whole army (barring one or two leaders and the reaper artillery) is pretty much still there and GW has advanced the lore to a point where Morathi would have access to more regular non-cult followers and allies. They could well shift the next Tome toward her solidifying her armies; her witches moving back to elite/sub army focus and including all the warriors from the old army.
A move which I'm sure old fans of the army would be more than happy for (even if by the 3rd tome it would be nearly 10 years after AoS started); but which in my view would dilute everything DoK have risen to become.
It's the same as GW teasing Kurnothi and the remains of the Aelf component of the old Wood Elves and if they'd rebuild Sylvaneth back into what it was. Would that change Sylvaneth at its core or would most fans be super happy for such a restoration.
"Remains of the Aelf component of the old Wood Elves"?
So you mean three kits?
I'm sure that someone will be along shortly to correct me with "But there's 4!!". Sisters of the Watch were a High Elf unit put into Wanderers, just like how Shadow Warriors are now in the same subfaction as Dark Riders and Assassins.
~Aye that's why I also added the Kurnothi to that Since they appear to be the organic living side of the woodland warrior armies. However GW still hasn't really confirmed anything on them. They could be their own army or a sub-army within Sylvaneth or just a lore concept that has some attention here and there but isn't going to be an army any time soon and might never be.
Cities of Sigmar is a great thing, but it also left a lot of hanging on elements in a very questionable state and we don't really know what GW's medium or long term plan for them is (GW might not even fully know themselves).
It might be that no recombining ever happens and that what we get over time is GW updating those sculpts with new designs that unify the cities into distinct groups and create a visual identity whilst having core elements which are shared between them.
I guess that means that if there's any Easy-2-Build stuff from Soul Wars that you want, now would be the time to get it before it vanishes, maybe for good.
Kanluwen wrote: Probably. Heavens forbid people ever just wait for things rather than playing StockHammer.
Trust you to blame the customer rather than GW for that...
H.B.M.C. wrote: I guess that means that if there's any Easy-2-Build stuff from Soul Wars that you want, now would be the time to get it before it vanishes, maybe for good.
Not entirery sure. Some of them (banshees and ballistas come to mind right now) are EtB and I don't think they will replace them right now.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I guess that means that if there's any Easy-2-Build stuff from Soul Wars that you want, now would be the time to get it before it vanishes, maybe for good.
They’ll probably split soul wars into 2 start collecting sets like the SC Thunderstrike brotherhood and Khorne Bloodbound Goreblade and up the prices for good measure. Nighthaunt still don’t have an SC yet. I could see the 3 set of EtB Sequitors going but the Castigators don’t have a kit other than the EtB ones. A lot of those EtB kits are also used in Underworlds and it’s new starter set and the small boxed games.
I don't care too much if at least all models get eventually released separately (to hw credit, i think it was the case for indominius). Nothing worse than models dissapearing a la obliterators
H.B.M.C. wrote: I guess that means that if there's any Easy-2-Build stuff from Soul Wars that you want, now would be the time to get it before it vanishes, maybe for good.
They’ll probably split soul wars into 2 start collecting sets like the SC Thunderstrike brotherhood and Khorne Bloodbound Goreblade and up the prices for good measure. Nighthaunt still don’t have an SC yet. I could see the 3 set of EtB Sequitors going but the Castigators don’t have a kit other than the EtB ones. A lot of those EtB kits are also used in Underworlds and it’s new starter set and the small boxed games.
Or they may follow the current trend with the Indomitus and Cursed City sprues and release the Knight of Shrouds on Ethereal Steed, the Guardian of Souls and the Spirit Torment (all of which are on the same sprue) as a single kit for around $110 US
Well yeah. CAD/AUD is near parity, so CAD$130 is better than the AUD$180 we pay for the Royal Court. Of course, both prices are gak...
In any case, my point remains the same: If there are Soul Wars-related EZ2 Build kits that you've had your eye on for a while but never got around to getting, get 'em now because they either vanish or reappear as a massively marked up rip-off ala Dark Imperium/Indomitus.
Lizards basically had Slann who could mass teleport, part seas or raise up land bridges at a whim for purposes of travelling about. However, this was conveniently forgotten for End Times so that they could be conveniently butchered off wholesale in isolation in half of one book with absolutely zero rule support (not even a profile for the powered up Mazdamundi or Kroak) while GW sold giant cyborg gatling gun rats. The final cop out of a storyline of cop outs was the Lizardmen INTO SPACE!-ing it.
Yeah, I didn't like End Times. It felt horribly rushed, the actual fluff was a train wreck and they did a few factions massive disrespect in the way they were handled.
Lizards basically had Slann who could mass teleport, part seas or raise up land bridges at a whim for purposes of travelling about. However, this was conveniently forgotten for End Times
To be fair, they didn't have it for multiple editions, but it was added in randomly for a sudden 'my realisms logic'*, to justify why they were in the game at all. The history of the Slann was a weird one anyway, as they got suddenly demoted from fallen, barbaric remnants of the Old Ones to kind of dopey minions, who mostly slept all the time.
*And dark elves just sailed, and wood elves just got to live other places as well as Athel Loren.
Lizards basically had Slann who could mass teleport, part seas or raise up land bridges at a whim for purposes of travelling about. However, this was conveniently forgotten for End Times
To be fair, they didn't have it for multiple editions, but it was added in randomly for a sudden 'my realisms logic'*, to justify why they were in the game at all. The history of the Slann was a weird one anyway, as they got suddenly demoted from fallen, barbaric remnants of the Old Ones to kind of dopey minions, who mostly slept all the time.
*And dark elves just sailed, and wood elves just got to live other places as well as Athel Loren.
I wish they had kept the slaan as being fallen barbaric remnants of the old ones; it's so much cooler (to me at least) then having them as direct minions of always off-screen star people.
Galas wrote: I remember the backlash agaisnt ogre kingdoms. Because they didn't fitted in the old world (Even when you had dark elves in Naggarond participating without a problem), that they were retconing the better human ogres like the mordheim one, etc....
I don't recall too much complaining about the introduction of Ogre Kingdoms themselves other than the removal of regular Ogres. Not saying no one was complaining, but it wasn't a complaint I heard amongst my group. People in general seemed happy that we were getting something that expanded eastwards, and what complaints I did hear were more about how balanced an army consisting entirely of monstrous infantry would be.
WHFB fans were by the most parts extremely adverse to any kind of change or new introduction to the setting.
For the most part, even WHFB fans knew the game was dying and needed something to boost it. GW's attempts mostly focused on people buying bigger armies, but that wasn't well received and stopped new players getting into it.
When something is new, everything is possible and fresh, but the more time pases, the more things are set in stone.
Nothing I've seen in AoS couldn't exist in WHFB, WHFB was still a fantasy setting with magic, it's not hard to make a place for something new. But by killing WHFB they could get rid of a large portion of the existing kit. In the end I reckon that was the case, killing WHFB had less to do with expansions not fitting well into WHFB, but rather GW wanting to cull half the WHFB range.
Certainly whatever backlash there would have been from expanding WHFB would have paled into insignificance compared to the backlash from outright killing the setting. I recall The End Times being quite well received up until people started realising they were actually killing the setting and started to panic.
Nothing I've seen in AoS couldn't exist in WHFB, WHFB was still a fantasy setting with magic, it's not hard to make a place for something new. But by killing WHFB they could get rid of a large portion of the existing kit. In the end I reckon that was the case, killing WHFB had less to do with expansions not fitting well into WHFB, but rather GW wanting to cull half the WHFB range.
Certainly whatever backlash there would have been from expanding WHFB would have paled into insignificance compared to the backlash from outright killing the setting. I recall The End Times being quite well received up until people started realising they were actually killing the setting and started to panic.
I always just thought it showed that they didn't have a confidence in the new game and setting. So, a stick was employed rather than a carrot. AoS is such a vastly different game to WHFB (in both fantasy setting and game mechanics) that both of them could have easily lived alongside each other.
Also probably being one of the most callous things GW has ever done in its history (actually eclipsing the destruction of the Squats by a country mile, which really were just allowed to whither and die) you have to know it was a business/accounting decision. There is absolutely no way anyone in the creative departments would have supported it and you have to think there must have been some opposition within GW to that act.
And yes the gaming population wasn't massive but I would say it was still pretty significant. My local club had teams that went to tournaments around the UK and Europe that were attended by hundreds of players, and those guys played every single week. All of that community got shattered, and obviously a great deal of them felt resentment for what had happened and not everyone enjoyed AoS (especially in the early days). I wasn't ever a massive WHFB fan, but I knew people that were and I've seen grown men get a lump in their throat when talking about it. It was absolutely an egregious act, regardless of the reasons for it, it should not be forgotten and GW should not have been forgiven for doing it.
My local club had teams that went to tournaments around the UK and Europe that were attended by hundreds of players, and those guys played every single week.
So what happened? Did someone from GW come and confiscate all their Warhammer Fantasy books and models so they couldn't play anymore?
My local club had teams that went to tournaments around the UK and Europe that were attended by hundreds of players, and those guys played every single week.
So what happened? Did someone from GW come and confiscate all their Warhammer Fantasy books and models so they couldn't play anymore?
GW games are sourounded by an insulation, or cult of officialdom. What GW says, will happen, for most players.
Just as most players will accept an edition shift, despite not needing one.
When GW says WHFB is dead it's to these people dead, despite having a good enough basis and population to self sustain itself with community works like so many other games did.
In fact that is part of GW's strategy to make players more dependant aswell, since it prevents 3rd party opponents in the market to compete and guarantees a core dependant custommer base.
On occaision some of these people wake up and realise, that GW isn't the hobby , it's whatever system they like, and if they find themselves they can run the system to their liking without GW's influence of churn and burn. But most GW players are not that way, for most of them also the "Plug and play" and "always an opponent" factor from official GW are more important, without realising that this is solely a product of GW's mass /inertia.
Hence when GW kills off a system by it's unmigitated greed like WHFB the game feels worse than it actually is or was in previous iterations. So the players switch or will go and never come back.
That's what happens when you form a parasocial relationship with a product. To GW it was plastic to be shifted, to GW fans it was their Hobby (tm). You buy into corporate bullcrap about Hobby and other FeelGood slogans how we're all together, you end up being used. Customers should really know better. But they don't, they never learn and are always surprised when companies don't have the same love for their products that they do.
Cronch wrote: That's what happens when you form a parasocial relationship with a product. To GW it was plastic to be shifted, to GW fans it was their Hobby (tm). You buy into corporate bullcrap about Hobby and other FeelGood slogans how we're all together, you end up being used. Customers should really know better. But they don't, they never learn and are always surprised when companies don't have the same love for their products that they do.
Well GW is fostering that relationship, even moreso nowadays with their medicore PR department.
But for those that it is their Hobby tm , the relationship to daddy GW and all the inertia a GW game generally builds up through that mass relation ship is more important actually than their Hobby really is. It's in many ways the same churn and burn manipulations you see in the mobile games market.
That's not to say though that even if WHFB was your hobby that you have to stop and this is where beeing a selfreliant and independent hobbiest is an advantage, GW might killed off WHFB, but last i heard 6th edition books are cheap or available through other means, and their new AOS range even has some decent upgrades to the Modellines. Heck why not check out 3rd parties.
Anyways, new skellies, awesome, new foot vampire, quite awesome.
Of course GW is fostering the relationship, it's making them money. It's also somewhat evil in my opinion, ,but that's my opinion on all corporations playing on emotional responses to shift their products.
My local club had teams that went to tournaments around the UK and Europe that were attended by hundreds of players, and those guys played every single week.
So what happened? Did someone from GW come and confiscate all their Warhammer Fantasy books and models so they couldn't play anymore?
Sorry I don't want to de-rail what this thread is for and so this will be my last post on it here. As Not Online!!! has said above, really you just had a fracturing of the community. Some guys just bought in wholesale, others did once some of the nonsense/silly rules were removed and points values and stuff came back in, others have gone off to play other games or just stopped altogether. Think you've got some other groups, like the 9th Age, who have tried to persist with fan-made versions of the rules. But, the main point I was trying to make was that it split those communities of guys and took away something that was fun for them, and I thought that was just so sad.
My local club had teams that went to tournaments around the UK and Europe that were attended by hundreds of players, and those guys played every single week.
So what happened? Did someone from GW come and confiscate all their Warhammer Fantasy books and models so they couldn't play anymore?
Wargames don't endure without new blood. The whole reason most people stick with GW over other games is the sheer volume of players, rather than sticking within the circle of the same three-four people. That's why games are considered "dead" when their LFGS 'only' has a handful of people playing them, as opposed to stores full the way AoS/40k and formally WHFB did. Wargaming isn't cheap, so naturally people want to 'invest' in something that's going to have longevity. Sure, your books didn't go away, but the new blood to that game is going to be non-existent, be that because people don't want to play something discontinued - nevermind Ebay prices for WHFB models that aren't used in AoS - or because those groups go insular for that reason.
See also the Cult of Officialdom that gets talked about above.
And yes the gaming population wasn't massive but I would say it was still pretty significant. My local club had teams that went to tournaments around the UK and Europe that were attended by hundreds of players, and those guys played every single week. All of that community got shattered, and obviously a great deal of them felt resentment for what had happened and not everyone enjoyed AoS (especially in the early days). I wasn't ever a massive WHFB fan, but I knew people that were and I've seen grown men get a lump in their throat when talking about it. It was absolutely an egregious act, regardless of the reasons for it, it should not be forgotten and GW should not have been forgiven for doing it.
What's hilarious is how quickly these same people turned around and forgave GW, falling hook, line and sinker for their PR department. "Uh yeah we're probably unkilling that game you loved" and how quickly a lot of these people went from bitter cynics to the biggest GW shills you can imagine. Kings of War? 9th Age? Conquest? Song? Who cares! The OFFICIAL rank-and-file game Warhammer(tm) from our friends Games Workshop(tm) is here! Please let me love you daddy!
This seems to be getting pretty far off topic, maybe you can take it to the Dakka Fiction subforum?
For the record; I know Dakka Fiction is for in-universe fiction generally speaking, but fictional stories about the IRL end of WHFB fit better there than here.
So rumour is kragnos 760, kroak 430. Also another version of kroak warscroll out. Pretty similar to old one that I see though force barrier gets more attacks near monsters(think that's new) and the old 4+++ gets changed to roll 3d6+wounds suffered during phase. 20+ kroak dies, otherwiose you heal all. If you suffer 18 wounds(nominal wound characteristic) you die. Easier to kill if you can do 12+ wounds in same phase, very hard if you only chip him for couple wounds per phase.
I'm going to say that I am quite dissapointed about the lack of special Broken Realms kits for Destruction. I didn't expected to see 3 damned, foul Chaos boxes in the final batch.
On the other side, I hope this means that now they will focus on Destruction for 3E, more likely given the hoborcblins, but I'd really like they resurrect Kragnos race as some kind of earth elemental centaurs or something.
Also, sky goblins is high on almost everyones wishlists.
Looking at what may be the new Kroak scroll and points, kroaknado is gone, you will likely need guards no matter what and he just fits into the engine.
Now really just a regular slann+1
Kind of glad as it would be nice to use the new model without being classed as "that guy"
I'm hoping it's a mix up with Kraggy though.
At that cost he will never see a match.
If he is that cost, I'm hoping he has some big allegiance abilities in the book to atleast justify it a bit.
Definitely going to be interesting to see the official details though.
Dominion , it better have Jem’hadar in it . Actually I think I might be more excited if it did. Maybe I’ll paint up some Stormcasts with the yellow blue and redshirts just in case.
Jackal90 wrote: Well, Kraggy is looking like 760.
Frog is 430.
Thats a big hit for destruction players as he is now potentially the easiest 760 points in the game to kill due to low wounds and no MW save.
I’m not so sure Kragnos is a points sink. Yes he’s vulnerable to Mortal Wounds, but not a great deal else thanks to his 2+ save, and his Shield should overcome spell based MW with ease (3d6 to beat the casting number, not whatever your opponent rolled to cast).
And he’s going to smash up pretty much anything he gets his paws on, even without the charge based MW, so tarpitting him is gonna be difficult. Get him +1 to hit from somewhere, and he’ll be like a hot knife through butter.
Jackal90 wrote: Well, Kraggy is looking like 760.
Frog is 430.
Thats a big hit for destruction players as he is now potentially the easiest 760 points in the game to kill due to low wounds and no MW save.
I’m not so sure Kragnos is a points sink. Yes he’s vulnerable to Mortal Wounds, but not a great deal else thanks to his 2+ save, and his Shield should overcome spell based MW with ease (3d6 to beat the casting number, not whatever your opponent rolled to cast).
And he’s going to smash up pretty much anything he gets his paws on, even without the charge based MW, so tarpitting him is gonna be difficult. Get him +1 to hit from somewhere, and he’ll be like a hot knife through butter.
At that cost he's competing with characters that not only cause massive damage, but also act as a force multiplier.
2+ save is nice, but rend eats in to that pretty quickly.
He has no way of gaining fly or buffing his own movement, so he is pretty slow in terms of things.
If I throw a speed bump unit at him he has to kill it as his movement isn't enough to go around it without being charged.
Most MWs come from abilities rather than spells.
At that cost I'd honestly have hoped to see him have a general MW save.
Being a pure beat stick is nice, but with no delivery system its kind of a big problem.
In the average 2k game he is also using up over 1/3 of your points straight away.
So now you need to build around him, which due to lack of any real keywords make it impossible.
I'm finding it really hard to be interested in this new faction. From all the hints they seem like they'll be extremely derivative fantasy orc/goblin stuff. Pretty much most of the destruction alliance is like that to me, though. It seems like with destruction they are having trouble coming up with interesting stuff, whereas order gets stuff like elves riding eels and flying steampunk dwarves.
Quasistellar wrote: I'm finding it really hard to be interested in this new faction. From all the hints they seem like they'll be extremely derivative fantasy orc/goblin stuff. Pretty much most of the destruction alliance is like that to me, though. It seems like with destruction they are having trouble coming up with interesting stuff, whereas order gets stuff like elves riding eels and flying steampunk dwarves.
I have to concur...while I am not a fan of the Destruction forces per se, I am a huge fan of Chaos Dwarves and Fimir
(and have more of each than is reasonable)...either of which could have easily followed Kragnos. A God-Like Bull Centaur and/or a mystic godly amalgam would fit the themes of either force.
Now, if they manage to blend the Mongolian Hobgobins into this army, my interest will be reignited.
I wonder if they will bring the bog beast and wizard in from a few years ago. I forget the story arch but it was an island "Albion" shrouded by mist. I really liked the metal fen beast.
Quasistellar wrote: I'm finding it really hard to be interested in this new faction. From all the hints they seem like they'll be extremely derivative fantasy orc/goblin stuff. Pretty much most of the destruction alliance is like that to me, though. It seems like with destruction they are having trouble coming up with interesting stuff, whereas order gets stuff like elves riding eels and flying steampunk dwarves.
Gotta admit, the 'derivative fantasy orc/goblin' angle is exactly what's appealing to me. I want something that I can just drop in a fantasy RPG. Keep the 'interesting' (goofy) Order stuff as far away from me as possible.
But destruction in general seems to be in the worst place, I'll agree. It feels like the 'not-squatted-yet' grand alliance, with a few surviving distinctly warhammer sculpts (night gobbos, squigs, stone trolls, savage orcs, fat ogres and that one weird mutation of black orcs which... didn't take). Its definitely the area that needs the MOST attention at this point (though Malekith's followers finally getting revealed 3 editions in would be nice as well. Well that and the still unanswered question of 'what's normal life like, then?').
GW has focused heavily on Death all through 2nd edition to the point where now I'd say Death is perhaps in the best position with "almost" all its finecast gone and its models updated in general.
Sure Flesheaters and Ossiarchs would like some more models for variety and its clear that Vampires (soulblight) are going out with a bang getting a huge range of models all to themselves.
That said GW has been talking about Destruction for a long time and I think whilst 2nd edition was Death, I think 3rd will be Destruction getting a huge focus.
And yes I think getting Malarion's army out would be great, they are the last big army that's been hinted at and its really odd that one whole realm - Shadow - basically hasn't had any activity from its major player (lets not forget even taking a City of Sigmar, Morathi still only rules and holes a tiny corner of the realm)
Some nice abilities, but still, profile wise color me
disappointed.
Yeah, their profiles are not so great. But why is Synessa "the Slaanesh Sorceress" limited to 1 cast and 1 denial a turn. Dexcessa is supposed to be choppy character but is limited to red -2 and damage 2. Heres hopping that they're pointed appropriately. I still can't help but feel disappointed given how much GW hyped them.
Some nice abilities, but still, profile wise color me
disappointed.
Yeah, their profiles are not so great. But why is Synessa "the Slaanesh Sorceress" limited to 1 cast and 1 denial a turn. Dexcessa is supposed to be choppy character but is limited to red -2 and damage 2. Heres hopping that they're pointed appropriately. I still can't help but feel disappointed given how much GW hyped them.
Same here.
The Epitome is better at casting/dispelling than Slaanesh's progeny...
Sasori wrote: Yeah, the Slaanesh Twins are really odd. I was expecting KoS + 1 kind of stats, but they are closer to a herald than a KoS from these stats.
Indeed.
And they are on even greater bases than the KoS.
Their -1 to hit thing will not help that much.
Lumineth archers will still mortal wound them out in a turn or two...
DaveC wrote: The full image - top right is the relevant part. Something troll sized with the rumour engine club up there?
Spoiler:
What about the mounted thing behind the Mega boss?
Savage orcs
Boy, 18 wounds for Lord Kroak, daaaamn...
That looks nothing like any Savage Ork model in existence. The mount looks way more modern. No way, that has to be something from the new line. Look at the shield.
Old Warlord ones are a pain to build and fragile, Oathmark ones are similar, Wargames Atlantic have weird proportions. Yeah, I am picky but it looks like 
