Hey Dakka,

I wanted to know if there would be a decent market (on Dakka of course)for high quality scratch-built tanks and titans. Over the years I've improved my construction techniques and can now produce scale tanks and titans with a moderately high amount of detail and strong durability. Im considering producing large amounts for sale at very reasonable prices.

Heres what I can construct so far with pricing ranges(note these can be made imperial or traitor):
-chimeras $10-$15
-hydras $12-$17
-basilisks $12-$17
-leman russ $15-$20
-land raiders $20-$25
-malcadors $25-$30
-warhound titans $110-$135
-armorcast type reaver titans $200-$235
-warlord titans $300-$335
-sentinels $5-$10
-baneblades $30-$45

So what do you think?

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Hey Dakka,

I wanted to know if there would be a decent market (on Dakka of course)for high quality scratch-built tanks and titans. Over the years I've improved my construction techniques and can now produce scale tanks and titans with a moderately high amount of detail and strong durability. Im considering producing large amounts for sale at very reasonable prices.

Heres what I can construct so far with pricing ranges(note these can be made imperial or traitor):
-chimeras $10-$15
-hydras $12-$17
-basilisks $12-$17
-leman russ $15-$20
-land raiders $20-$25
-malcadors $25-$30
-warhound titans $110-$135
-armorcast type reaver titans $200-$235
-warlord titans $300-$335
-sentinels $5-$10
-baneblades $30-$45

So what do you think?

Those prices seem very cheap, so I don't see why someone wouldn't be willing to pay it but... I think it would just depend on the product... you know what it's made from, level of detail, etc.

Yes and no...

Those who are able to afford such things and not inclined to build their own are able to pay hundreds and even thousands of dollars to get what they want...how they want it built.

These are not your average gamer, however there are more of them out there then you might think. A lot of doctors, lawyers, accountants...pretty much any well paid profession you can think of...got started playing wargames of various sorts when they were in college and continue to play and collect as they progress through their careers. Quite often though, their jobs limit the amount of time they can spend on their hobby - so they use painters, sculptors, terrain builders and other craftsmen to create what they want.

I know a few who have contracted with very high profile sculptors to have characters and even entire armies built for them. They have used special effects shops to create terrain for them (the same companies who build props for TV and movies). They also are the ones who buy the $700 titans which you see build threads for from time to time.

However, getting their business can be difficult. If you post a lot of your work...they will probably find you.

If you were to provide pics we could tell you if that is worth it and if people would be interested.

Added pics of Baneblades

Looking at those - I would probably say work a bit on refining your process. There are plenty of gaps which need dealing with, and areas that could use added detailing. Take a look around at some of the extensive scratch builders to see how they do things.

It is definately a solid start - but I am not too sure it would be in the right class of things as far as "high quality" goes. You may find a market niche though for people who want quantity though. 4 of your Baneblades versus one from GW...

While those baneblades are pretty good and show effort. I don't think anyone would pay for them.

I feel like I could get either 'half assembled' or 'painted models which need rehab' for the same price or cheaper for most of your prices. I can have the real thing for that price.

And for anyone interested in saving money, they gonna rehab. For anyone looking to save time, probably will want you to have amazing paintjobs with your scratch builds.

And for the people looking for bargain basement prices, they are more likely going to give their patronage to counterfietters over scratchbuilders.

Outside 'ork' scratchbuilds or titans, I see no market for faithfully recreating imperial tanks as there are just so many salvagable imperial tanks on ebay which puts you in a much better place. I just don't see price alone being a reason someone would want these.

(also, how long does it take to make these and materials? for those prices youa re probably paying yourself less than minimum wage which makes the whole exercise a waste IMHO.)

Edit:

Also, this is what I consider a 'high quality scratch build'
Kopter Karrier: http://www.the-waaagh.com/forums/?showtopic=51743&st=60
Supa-Bomma: http://www.the-waaagh.com/forums/?showtopic=35582&st=640

These have value because not only are they amazing, but they are art.

Yeah I'd have to agree... you might be able to find a niche building custom large-scale models that otherwise cost way too much, for cheap. If you're very fast. Otherwise, there's just no point. You might get the odd customer that wants to have an apoc game with 4 titans and 10 baneblades. Painting is a problem too... there's a certain point where if you are going to spend x amount of effort painting, you might as well be painting the real thing.

When I hear 'high quality scratchbuild' I expect to see something that has the same detail as a normal plastic model, with something extra added that you couldn't ever get from a mold, that takes a considerable amount of skill. I think there's a market for that, for the same reason that there's a market for custom jewellery.

I happen to think those Baneblades look pretty good. What material do you use to make these scratchbuilds? Can I see examples of your sentinels? I may commission you for some of those, if you wouldn't mind-I think you're doing a great job. Also guys, note that he said those were the first 3 he's made: usually quality only goes up, so I'd imagine his later models are even better. And I'm impressed with the BB quality as is.

I used comic boards for those baneblades. And yes. The quality has increased since those 3. I would be happy to take commisions. I haven't finished a sentinel yet. But ill start on asap.

I'd actually plan to use the Sentinels for Warpath, and would probably be mostly interested in the armored style-which is probably easier for you too, I'd imagine. Let me know when you have one done, and if it looks as nice as those BBs (or better), you can expect me to jump on a bunch of them.

edit-oh, and I wouldn't be worried about weapons on them: Mantic's weapons are smaller, and I have extra: I'm only interested in the body itself. Hope that makes your life easier to help make mine easier

I'd probably commission you to do a Land Raider, though I require some pics beforehand.

Actually, probably a Land Raider, then 2 Vindicators and 2 Rhinos if you did those as well.

Keep going. If those are your first three than excellent job.
As suggested earlier you would likely have more luck doing the bigger more expensive items as many people want to get them for shizzz and giggles but don't have that kind of coin.

I like the look. Imperial tanks aren't overly complicated visually, and I think your quality looks good. I think people would be very willing to pay considering the ridiculous highs that GW prices are reaching (or already were).

For that price I'd be willing to look at a Warhound, but I'd have to know which pattern you are making.

Just remember guys, I'm first in line.

Well, I plan on making one of everything this.week. so...finished pics of everything will be up. Spare the reaver and warlord. And I'm probbly going to start a swap shop thread for commissions soon. Glad you guys are interested! And thanks for the compliments!

You might want to add dreadnaughts and Rhino-variants (Vindi's, Razorbacks, etc) to your list as well: given GK love of Autocannon Dreads and the usefulness of Razorbacks and Vindi's with a high monetary cost, you could probably make out pretty well with them too. I actually had to look at your list a second time to confirm that Dreadnoughts aren't on there-I figured they would be. I look forward to Sentinel model! Also, PM incoming!

Well, I know for a fact that I would be interested in a Land Raider or two...

pretty nice. that said i see many errors.

my advice is to get one as perfect as you can then learn how to start casting.

youre almost there, it just needs more polish.

You can sell them until the games workshop (oops) Lawyers come knocking on your door!

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
You can sell them until the games workshop come knocking on your door!

Sadly, this may be a valid point: give the models different names and leave off all insignia (aquillas, SM chapter symbols, etc). Hopefully they won't do anything.

nkelsch wrote:
I feel like I could get either 'half assembled' or 'painted models which need rehab' for the same price or cheaper for most of your prices. I can have the real thing for that price.

And for anyone interested in saving money, they gonna rehab. For anyone looking to save time, probably will want you to have amazing paintjobs with your scratch builds.

I think this quote is the most poignant. You can buy legitimate NIB baneblades at 25% off during sales from stores and even more off on ebay (although maybe not multiples at once) if you're patient. You can generally get the authentic plastic model in moderate condition for 40%-50% off retail as well. Unless you're beating those prices by a significant margin, people will likely opt to pay more for the "real" thing. I don't know if it's worth your time to buy the materials and spend hours making them at the discount that you'd need to give to sell the models at. If moderate condition plastic official models are at roughly 50% retail then your scratchbuilds would likely have to be at around 50%-66% of that already discounted price (depending on the material you use) as well to justify not getting the "real" thing even if it needs some TLC. If I were in the market personally for a baneblade (I'm not.. just sold my two late last year), I'd be willing to pay $30 for a plasticard one as it would at least partly "feel" to the touch like the official version but $45 would be too much for me personally for a plasticard version and yours are cardboard. I'm not sure how the cardboard ones feel or even if they hold paint well without warping so I'd be hesitant to pay upfront without some nice close up multiple view pics of both unpainted and painted versions. I've seen some horrible scratch builds and any seller's personal view of them being "high quality" carries as much weight unfortunately as seeing "pro-painted" on an ebay auction. If you're serious about selling stuff like this, it's an uphill battle for sure and the lack of a proper gallery of examples in every swap shop thread you start won't help you.

I'm not trying to knock your models or skills as they're much better than my scratchbuilding will ever be but simply trying to give you advice from the perspective of a scratchbuild skeptic. For every good scratchbuild I've seen, I've had to keep my mouth shut about at least a dozen horrible ones... I'm sure my experience isn't unique in that regard and its bound to color opinions to some extent.

I already had that happen on ebay before. Now I love selling "Wardog titans" So when advertising begins, expect different names. As for insignia...i may have to ween that off a bit.

The big thing is to remain off their radar by not going through and opening up a conventional retail chain (to include no consistent eBay sales).

Also - it would help to be located in Eastern Europe.

And I will certainly be trying my hardest to make these models close to, or as close as possible to the real deal. The comic boards are very compressed. And they will take paint fine without warping. Note that most detail will be in plasticard or viynl. SO these arent made of trash. I take time in building these models. You can also expect brass rod, wire, cord, washers, and possibly gw bits.


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Oh, and shame im not in Eastern Europe haha.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9_CuA63zK4

research mold making. with a perfect master your quality will be better and more consistant.

at your prices it makes no sense to make each one by hand. i have a feeling you would be working for about 2 dollars an hour. how long does it take you to make each one?

One small warning here: you're blatantly copying GW IP for profit, so as soon as you become successful enough to get any attention you're going to be facing legal action from GW and it will be completely one-sided case where your only option is to immediately and without question do everything GW demands (which will include ceasing all production, destroying your molds, etc) and you'll be lucky to escape financial penalties.


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 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
So when advertising begins, expect different names.

Do you honestly expect GW's lawyers (or the court, if you're foolish enough to refuse to settle out of court in a case where you're so obviously wrong) to be fooled by that? If you do, you're incredibly idealistic and going to be in for a harsh surprise if you ever succeed at selling a significant number of these.

Exactly why im not molding anything. I would, but....yeah, what he said.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Exactly why im not molding anything. I would, but....yeah, what he said.

Molding or not, what you're doing here is already illegal. You're selling copies of GW IP, and the only reason you'll get away with it for a while is because GW isn't going to bother with some random person who sold a scratchbuilt model to a friend one time. If you get any significant sales volume (like you seem to be trying to do) that "too small to care" goes away and the GW lawyers will shut down your business.

I'm not sure why you think so small. Where's the Thunderhawk, and how much does it cost?

Design your own tanks which fit the 40k aesthetic and you will do better.

 Peregrine wrote:
One small warning here: you're blatantly copying GW IP for profit, so as soon as you become successful enough to get any attention you're going to be facing legal action from GW and it will be completely one-sided case where your only option is to immediately and without question do everything GW demands (which will include ceasing all production, destroying your molds, etc) and you'll be lucky to escape financial penalties.


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 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
So when advertising begins, expect different names.

Do you honestly expect GW's lawyers (or the court, if you're foolish enough to refuse to settle out of court in a case where you're so obviously wrong) to be fooled by that? If you do, you're incredibly idealistic and going to be in for a harsh surprise if you ever succeed at selling a significant number of these.

im no expert but he should be ok if he alters the designs a bit and avoids using GW bits, names or iconography right?

it seems to me that GW just ripped off battletech/mechwarrior designs for their "titans" anyways.

kb305 wrote:
im no expert but he should be ok if he alters the designs a bit and avoids using GW bits, names or iconography right?

That depends on the degree of modification.

"Altering" the model by moving the precise placement of the rivets around a bit while keeping the exact same shape/details/etc and making it perfectly obvious that you're creating a copy of the GW model is illegal, and the court isn't going to be fooled by such a flimsy attempt to pretend it's a new design.

Altering the design to create a distinctly new design with a similar concept (for example, WWI-style tanks like IG) and weapons/equipment that could plausibly count as something in GW's rules is ok, but the key is substantial modifications. If you put the two side by side they need to be clearly distinct designs.

Unfortunately the first option is what the OP is doing, as demonstrated by the scratchbuilt Baneblades that are the exact same design as the GW kit, the open use of GW names and desire to sell scratchbuilt copies of GW designs, etc. This is illegal and the only question is whether the OP will succeed well enough to get GW's attention and get shut down and/or sued.

it seems to me that GW just ripped off battletech/mechwarrior designs for their "titans" anyways.

Maybe in the general style of the models, but not in the specifics. If you put a GW titan next to a Battletech walker they're very obviously two different designs based on a common theme, not an attempt to make as close of a copy as possible of the other company's design.

Yeah, in this instance 'scratchbuilt' is a pseudonym for 'counterfeit'

Personally I like scratch built stuff AND will pay for it as long as it's sturdy (within reason).. I refuse to pay 550$ for a warhound, but I will buy 3 good scratch built ones for that price.

My collection of titans prove that!

To the OP: If you can make high quality warhound or reavers send me a PM and I'm probably interested (However, I am concerned about the material used..I dont want them to break easy)

Gamesworkshop's copyright says there can be no use of names, races, insignia, ect. However, how many models of cars are there on the planet? Can Ford copyright the words "car" and "truck"? No way. These are legitiment nouns used to describe what they are, reguardless of how similar models are to eachother. Now if i made a car and called it a corvette I would be infringing copyright law because corvette is really a pronoun. So why is the word "tank" any different? Modifications are completly unnecessary. As long as I do not advertise my product with the copyrighted names or symbols of GW there is no laws being broken. My materials, my method of assembly, the scale of my buisness, and the production rate are all different. Im not molding thousands of products out of plastic. How do you think independent and custom bit sites got started? Comparing a space marine to "armored warrior" is nothing more than a synonym. So a warhound and a "wardog" are the same way. Hell, I could name it a "giant robot". If there is no infringment in advertisment, there is no reason I could be forced to stop production and sales.


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And I just got a friggin atourney to verify this later tonight.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
So a warhound and a "wardog" are the same way. Hell, I could name it a "giant robot". If there is no infringment in advertisment, there is no reason I could be forced to stop production and sales.

I think you need to step back a bit because you're getting a bit bullish about this and starting to sound a bit of a dick. You can't just change the name and then craft something almost dimensionally identical to what GW already make and think you're in the clear. There's more to copyright than just a name, you won't be able to churn out Warhound duplicates in plastic card and call them 'Wardogs' and be untouchable. GW don't own generic terms, but they do have rights over the specific shape of their tanks and titans. And you've started a thread on the internet saying in plain terms that you intend to copy their stuff and sell it by another name, which could be used against you later on.

Best thing if you do this is to just take on individual commissions, and do it all on a personal level though emails and phone, take jobs at the speed you can comfortably manage them. Other people take commissions on scratchbuilt models, just as some take commissions on painting. They don't turn it into a business and keep it small scale and informal. I think you're best off sticking to the large stuff, there's a lot of work involved in scratchbuilding small tanks only to sell them for as little as $10-15. A few big jobs like titans are much more worth your time, and people are likely to be more interested. But don't be a smart ass about it and think that you can parade your scratchbuilt copies around with only a cheeky name change to protect you from GW lawyers.

I would stay clear of the Warhound as well, for another reason: DreamForge is about to hit the shelves with a fully poseable plastic unit for about the same price or lower.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
How do you think independent and custom bit sites got started?

By making things that are different models. This is the part that you're missing, those third-party sites are selling things that are clearly meant to be used in 40k, but they're distinctly different designs. Yes, they're based on a common theme ("WWI-style tank with a giant gun", "futuristic soldier with laser rifle", etc), but it's their own take on the theme, not just a 1:1 copy of the GW kit. All of the people selling exact copies of GW kits are breaking the law by selling recasts and are only still in business because they operate out of countries with no meaningful IP enforcement.

And I just got a friggin atourney to verify this later tonight.

Have fun with that. And I hope you found someone who is an expert in IP law, otherwise it's going to be pretty funny when "but my traffic lawyer said I was safe" excuse doesn't hold up in court.

Bullish and a dick? Not really. These templates I use have been on the internet for years. if Gw didnt like it, they would have had them taken down. And yes, they own the shapes of their models. But im not making replicas here. They arent carbon copies. Curved parts are straight, even large ones. Detail is in lower amounts, sometimes even changing the shape. The material is nowhere near GW's.


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Theres no chance of mass production anyways. Private commissions would be my only way, and preferred way to sell.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
These templates I use have been on the internet for years. if Gw didnt like it, they would have had them taken down.

They don't do it for three reasons:

1) It's impossible to do it, since there's no single target. It's just like how GW can't get rid of pirated codex pdfs, there's no centralized source to shut down, and if they sue one host for the files they'll all just show up on another host 15 minutes later. Even if it isn't legal GW just has to accept the practical issues with enforcing the law and let it go. You, on the other hand, would be a single target that can be identified and sued.

2) The people distributing templates aren't doing it for profit. It's a lot easier to punish IP theft when the target is doing it for personal gain instead of as a helpful service to a niche element of the hobby. You, on the other hand, are obviously doing this to make money.

3) The templates aren't complete models. They're a guide to making your own models that probably look like the GW kit in the end, but it's just a slightly more convenient tool than just taking a bunch of pictures of a GW kit and building your own (like some people already do). You, on the other hand, would be selling a complete model.

And yes, they own the shapes of their models. But im not making replicas here. They arent carbon copies. Curved parts are straight, even large ones. Detail is in lower amounts, sometimes even changing the shape. The material is nowhere near GW's.

Nonsense. Look at your own picture. That's obviously a Baneblade, and the only superficial differences seem to be due to your lack of skill at scratchbuilding complex parts. If you're foolish enough to ignore GW's cease and desist order then the court is going to state the obvious: you made a Baneblade. And it's going to be even easier when GW introduces this thread as evidence and shows that your intent from the beginning was to duplicate GW's models.

'Tracing' and 'reverse engineering' fall under derivative works for copyright infringement.

GW treats scratchbuilds like 'fanart'. Technically illegal but until someone makes a business model off it, they ignore it.

Many of the templates out there were directly taken from the 3d models in the 40k video games which make them derivative works so unless you are making your own templates off your own effort, you are already on shaky ground as someone cannot take a template from a copyrighted 3d model and make it public domain if he doesn't own the original source.

You would be better making your own original tanks based off your own original templates if you wanted to turn this into a real business. You could even sell your templates if they were unique tanks and make more money with less effort where you could sell the template for 2$ but build it for someone for 20$

Unless you have a lawyer on retainer, then you did not speak to a lawyer and did not get legal advice. Most lawyers won't actually give you advice so they don't fall under malpractice if you get in trouble. So your 'I spoke with a lawyer who said I am fine' is either a lie or delusion and not at all protecting you.

If you want to go for it... then push the envelope! go for it! Your scratchbuilds based upon that fuzzy picture and spraypaint (paint hides modeling sins) is not evidence of 'high quality' scratch builds. Point out your thread showing your build process, structure building and materials and maybe people will see 'high quality'. Those banebades are not bad, but they are not at all 'high quality' and there are dozens of internet scratchbuilders which put those to shame.

The effort and materials to turn your 'ok' builds into 'high quality' will blow the doors of your pricing model and basically result in you burning out your time on minimal reward or your price being the same or more than the real thing, which means the market is only valuable for large models where it is a deep discount or unique models like custom ork models or converted stuff like chibi-hawks and such.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
These templates I use have been on the internet for years. if Gw didnt like it, they would have had them taken down.

They don't do it for three reasons:

1) It's impossible to do it, since there's no single target. It's just like how GW can't get rid of pirated codex pdfs, there's no centralized source to shut down, and if they sue one host for the files they'll all just show up on another host 15 minutes later. Even if it isn't legal GW just has to accept the practical issues with enforcing the law and let it go. You, on the other hand, would be a single target that can be identified and sued.

2) The people distributing templates aren't doing it for profit. It's a lot easier to punish IP theft when the target is doing it for personal gain instead of as a helpful service to a niche element of the hobby. You, on the other hand, are obviously doing this to make money.

3) The templates aren't complete models. They're a guide to making your own models that probably look like the GW kit in the end, but it's just a slightly more convenient tool than just taking a bunch of pictures of a GW kit and building your own (like some people already do). You, on the other hand, would be selling a complete model.

You are incorrect in thinking the templetes infringe copyright. From UNESCO...

What is the object of copyright protection?
Copyright protects literary and artistic works by offering a range of exclusive
and non-excusive rights to their authors. To be protected, a work has to be
more than a mere idea. The distinction between protected works and ideas
lies at the very heart of copyright law. T he protection of a given work applies
to the expressions of ideas that are contained therein. Accordingly, in order
for copyright in a work to be infringed or violated, one has to copy the form
in which the ideas are expressed. The mere use of ideas found in a work
does not represent a copyright violation. For example, the author who has
written an article on how to build a boat will be protected against the making
and selling of copies of the article (i.e. the expression) without his or her
consent. However, copyright protection cannot prevent anyone from using
the instructions (i.e. the idea) contained within the article in order to build a
boat, neither to wri te another article on the same subject, without copying
the first one.

I remember when I was young there was a popular expensive toy called Tracey island based from the Thunderbirds show. On the UK kids TV show Bluepeter they showed you how to make your own out of yogurt pots and paper mache etc. Long story short, nobody got sued.

 Glorioski wrote:
I remember when I was young there was a popular expensive toy called Tracey island based from the Thunderbirds show. On the UK kids TV show Bluepeter they showed you how to make your own out of yogurt pots and paper mache etc. Long story short, nobody got sued.

There's a significant difference between giving kids a craft project that somewhat resembles the real thing (since a kid making something out of yogurt pots and paper mache isn't going to come even close to an exact copy) and templates to make an exact copy, especially if those templates are built from illegal copies of the 3d models from a game. So:

Making a blog post showing how you can take a small cardboard box, cut the front at 45* angle, and draw some space marine symbols on the side and call it a Rhino: legal.

Copying the DoW game files, editing the models to unwrap them, adding copies of the texture files, and putting the result up on the internet for everyone to download: not legal.


And of course I did say that the for free "how to make your own Rhino" templates are different from the OP's plan to make exact copies of the models and then sell them for profit.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Glorioski wrote:
I remember when I was young there was a popular expensive toy called Tracey island based from the Thunderbirds show. On the UK kids TV show Bluepeter they showed you how to make your own out of yogurt pots and paper mache etc. Long story short, nobody got sued.

There's a significant difference between giving kids a craft project that somewhat resembles the real thing (since a kid making something out of yogurt pots and paper mache isn't going to come even close to an exact copy) and templates to make an exact copy

The principle is entirely the same.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Glorioski wrote:
I remember when I was young there was a popular expensive toy called Tracey island based from the Thunderbirds show. On the UK kids TV show Bluepeter they showed you how to make your own out of yogurt pots and paper mache etc. Long story short, nobody got sued.

There's a significant difference between giving kids a craft project that somewhat resembles the real thing (since a kid making something out of yogurt pots and paper mache isn't going to come even close to an exact copy) and templates to make an exact copy, especially if those templates are built from illegal copies of the 3d models from a game. So:

Making a blog post showing how you can take a small cardboard box, cut the front at 45* angle, and draw some space marine symbols on the side and call it a Rhino: legal.

Copying the DoW game files, editing the models to unwrap them, adding copies of the texture files, and putting the result up on the internet for everyone to download: not legal.


And of course I did say that the for free "how to make your own Rhino" templates are different from the OP's plan to make exact copies of the models and then sell them for profit.

That is an insult to Eli - all of the templates he has produces (well over 100 of them) have been created from scratch. They are not ripped from game files, a large portion of them do not even exist in any video game (both the custom things like his alternative Leman Russ tanks to various super heavies that are not part of the existing games).

One thing which you also miss is that in fact, if an article in a magazine (say like the Baneblade in WD132) and I use those instructions to create a Baneblade - I can sell that Baneblade. I can then create another...even 100 more and sell them.

The issue of whether or not the original template file that Eli creates is a derivative work of GW's physical model is an issue which GW would need to address with him. The model created from that template though - it can be bought and sold independent of what GW or anyone else believes. The law is very clear on this issue (in fact an almost identical example is given in the quoted text above).

 Sean_OBrien wrote:

The issue of whether or not the original template file that Eli creates is a derivative work of GW's physical model is an issue which GW would need to address with him. The model created from that template though - it can be bought and sold independent of what GW or anyone else believes. The law is very clear on this issue (in fact an almost identical example is given in the quoted text above).

Derivative work of derivative work doesn't make it legal... May make it harder to prove but it is still a 'legal fight' should GW care to do something about it.

 Glorioski wrote:
The principle is entirely the same.

No it isn't. One is a craft project for kids, one is a replacement for a product, and one is a replacement for a product being sold for profit. All three fall under the uselessly broad term "copy", but the purposes and quality of them are entirely different.

The principle is to replicate an on sale product and is the same in each example. The level of replication is of no consequence in regard to copyright law.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
The model created from that template though - it can be bought and sold independent of what GW or anyone else believes.

That depends on the purpose of the sale.

Selling your 40k collection, which happens to include a scratchbuilt Baneblade? Fine.

Starting a business producing scratchbuild Baneblades with the explicit intent to make a profit from selling copies of GW IP? Not fine.


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 Glorioski wrote:
The principle is to replicate an on sale product and is the same in each example. The level of replication is of no consequence in regard to copyright law.

Only if the judge is an idiot and can't tell the difference between a child's "copy" and a precise duplicate of the original that is almost indistinguishable from the real model once both are assembled and painted.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Glorioski wrote:
The principle is to replicate an on sale product and is the same in each example. The level of replication is of no consequence in regard to copyright law.

Only if the judge is an idiot and can't tell the difference between a child's "copy" and a precise duplicate of the original that is almost indistinguishable from the real model once both are assembled and painted.

So essentially in your court of law if the guy getting sued for his templates to make GW models with pleads that they are only supposed to be used in potato shaping projects by childrenl he gets to go free? No the law is more black and white than that.

 Glorioski wrote:
So essentially in your court of law if the guy getting sued for his templates to make GW models with pleads that they are only supposed to be used in potato shaping projects by childrenl he gets to go free? No the law is more black and white than that.

Again, only if the judge is an idiot and can't tell the difference between a legitimate child's craft project and a person who is pretending to be making one to escape prosecution. Real life is not a movie, you don't get out of a lawsuit by finding some loophole that goes against all common sense.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Glorioski wrote:
So essentially in your court of law if the guy getting sued for his templates to make GW models with pleads that they are only supposed to be used in potato shaping projects by childrenl he gets to go free? No the law is more black and white than that.

Again, only if the judge is an idiot and can't tell the difference between a legitimate child's craft project and a person who is pretending to be making one to escape prosecution. Real life is not a movie, you don't get out of a lawsuit by finding some loophole that goes against all common sense.

Oh it certainly would go against common sense.Since in your example your going to have to have two laws. One which states creating how to guides on how to make copyrighted products are illegal and another which says it's alright if it's just for a childs project. The fact is neither exists.

There's no reason the OP cannot make a baneblade like tank that can be customized by customers with GW parts to make something that fits in-universe.
Anything not specific to GW is barred from official events anyway so this wont effect people building up tournament armies.
The OP is providing those who play informally and who model a chance to have something that more approximates the GW version, or even adds variety to an existing collection.
Let all the "IP lawyers" in this thread take a running jump. I doubt any of you have actual legal experience and are simply parroting the naysayers that infest the net.
To the OP, you might also want to look at the scenery market such as wrecked vehicles, generators, large containers etc as well as turret type gun emplacements.

One piece of advice:

Read up on all the legal stuff between Chapterhouse Studios and GW. Pay careful attention to the items that are at issue: ranging from iconography to the shape of a shoulder pad. Then consider how deep your pockets are for legal representation.

To answer your question: There is very little market for what you are doing and certainly not enough of a market to justify the legal situation you will find yourself in.

You've certainly done a good job using card board or what not but at the end of the day, the number of people willing to pay 30% of retail for a knock off isn't that great.

Consider this: I can buy a regular chimera for $28 (25% off of retail). Or I can pay you $15... At that point you are 1/2 retail for something that is likely more prone to wear and tear.

Looking at titans on the other end: Buying a FW titan is almost a right of passage. Building your own is at the same personal ownership level. Paying $300 for someone else to build one ... not so much.

clively wrote:

Looking at titans on the other end: Buying a FW titan is almost a right of passage. Building your own is at the same personal ownership level. Paying $300 for someone else to build one ... not so much.

Oh I believe there is a market for custom titans... The problem is the ones people are willing to pay for often require 50+ hours of construction, use substantial materials mostly plasticard, casted parts and PVC pipes and usually the materials and time almost rival the cost of the real thing.

When you make it yourself, your time is yours. When you sell it, you expect to be compensated for your time.

If someone is going to shell over 100$+ for a scratch-build, you better have a really good resume which includes an 80+ page build thread which inspires confidence in the end product.

cadbren wrote:
There's no reason the OP cannot make a baneblade like tank that can be customized by customers with GW parts to make something that fits in-universe.
Anything not specific to GW is barred from official events anyway so this wont effect people building up tournament armies.
The OP is providing those who play informally and who model a chance to have something that more approximates the GW version, or even adds variety to an existing collection.
Let all the "IP lawyers" in this thread take a running jump. I doubt any of you have actual legal experience and are simply parroting the naysayers that infest the net.
To the OP, you might also want to look at the scenery market such as wrecked vehicles, generators, large containers etc as well as turret type gun emplacements.

Thank you sir. The "IP lawyers" are making me out to be a bad guy. Im not in it just for profit, I like doing it, and i enjoy providing people with similar items to ones they cant afford. I truthfully see no problem in that. 99% of this site hate GWs pricing anyways, I imagined there would be more people on my side. And I wasnt looking for insults, constructive criticisim works fine. Many people here have little knowledge of IP laws. Ill be the first to say Im lacking.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And what about Warlord titans? There is no model in the 28mm range, Is it CR infringment to create one?

"I enjoy providing people with similar items to ones they cant afford."

There is a difference between producing a competing product which looks similar at a cheaper price, and attempting to produce a copy of that product and sell it for cheaper. Yours definitely falls into the latter category. Compare it to making your own indie superhero flim, or sitting in the cinemas camcording the Avengers.

The test in US copyright law is 'substantial similarity' of the expression (once one discounts the non-protectable ideas), which your models would fail if brought under scrutiny. For example, there are multiple ways that you *could* have made the hatches for the tank if you were creating your own design, but you chose to make them the same shape and in the same positions as the GW one, etc etc.
In considering a copyright case, the companies involved must necessarily consider the harm to their business; even if you win get awarded damages AND court fees, it can still be an expensive experience. So for example DC don't stop people from making a Superman cape at home for their kids (because this is a positive thing for their business as long as everyone knows that you made it), but they might stop you from producing multiples of said capes and selling them at a local market (because people might not know they are home-made), and they definitely will stop you from mass-producing capes and selling to Walmart.

GW has a particular history with being crazy and sending Cease and Desist orders to GW fan-sites and competing companies which produce items that are *completely* different, so your Baneblades are sure to come under fire.

As someone said above, if you want to pursue this I urge you to read the Chapterhouse thread and the court documents linked there via Pacer. CHS created the company with an IP lawyer on retainer and thought they were untouchable but they have now been tied up in over two years of litigation without even going to trial yet.

And yes, the Warlord Titan would be infringement.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Thank you sir. The "IP lawyers" are making me out to be a bad guy. Im not in it just for profit, I like doing it, and i enjoy providing people with similar items to ones they cant afford. I truthfully see no problem in that. 99% of this site hate GWs pricing anyways, I imagined there would be more people on my side. And I wasnt looking for insults, constructive criticisim works fine. Many people here have little knowledge of IP laws. Ill be the first to say Im lacking.

Ah yes, the traditional "ignore everyone who gave the answer I didn't want and focus on the one person who agreed with me" approach. You have the right to do so, but don't complain when you get unwanted attention from GW's lawyers.

BTW, what did your lawyer say about your plan?

 Glorioski wrote:
Design your own tanks which fit the 40k aesthetic and you will do better.

This. Construct your own unique design that fits the scale and blends in with the look of 40k. Change the name make sure there are no use of trademarked names, insignias, etc. Create a mold and make resin copies. Create a kickstarter. No copyright problems, and you might actually make some money if the quality is good.

We wrote:

 Glorioski wrote:
Design your own tanks which fit the 40k aesthetic and you will do better.

This. Construct your own unique design that fits the scale and blends in with the look of 40k. Change the name make sure there are no use of trademarked names, insignias, etc. Create a mold and make resin copies. Create a kickstarter. No copyright problems, and you might actually make some money if the quality is good.

Agree:

Here is an example:
http://www.the-waaagh.com/forums/?showtopic=51332

A person wanted to make a model which was a 'battlewagon' but was flying. The model can be used as a battlewagon (when set on the ground), a FW kommando Kopter or a Plain ork Flyer. He did a scratch build And then contacted a company to 'cast' the parts.

Now it is a real model. It is unique, people want it and has no dependency on GW parts, IP, models, nothing.
http://www.the-waaagh.com/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=51332&view=findpost&p=685038
http://www.the-waaagh.com/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=51332&view=findpost&p=690514

This is where the market is...

Here's an idea...bear with me. List that you are available to scratch build sci fi tanks and walkers for people, then show examples for your works. This way you aren't specifically making 'GW' tanks, and ask people to PM you with requests and hammer out prices through PM. That way you can continue working, but your work is strictly kept between you and your customers, without appearing like you are only making GW ones. Taking suggested prices for models down may not be a bad idea though. That might work out better without people giving you a hard time-examples are just that-examples of your work.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:

cadbren wrote:
There's no reason the OP cannot make a baneblade like tank that can be customized by customers with GW parts to make something that fits in-universe.
Anything not specific to GW is barred from official events anyway so this wont effect people building up tournament armies.
The OP is providing those who play informally and who model a chance to have something that more approximates the GW version, or even adds variety to an existing collection.
Let all the "IP lawyers" in this thread take a running jump. I doubt any of you have actual legal experience and are simply parroting the naysayers that infest the net.
To the OP, you might also want to look at the scenery market such as wrecked vehicles, generators, large containers etc as well as turret type gun emplacements.

Thank you sir. The "IP lawyers" are making me out to be a bad guy. Im not in it just for profit, I like doing it, and i enjoy providing people with similar items to ones they cant afford.

You're welcome. I will point out however that you titled the thread asking for opinions on high quality stratch-builds and the example you posted appears to be a production run rather than stratch-built, even if the original is stratch-built.

I will reiterate that providing sci-fi vehicles and accessories that are similar enough to GW models to be used as effective proxies is not breaking copyright. If 40k players and collectors wish to purchase non-GW proxies for their armies for use and appreciation outside of official GW events then that is their right as free people.

Hell, they look ace! I would buy them.. if only you weren't over in America

I'll point out too that, despite the negative comments on this thread, nearly 3/4 of voters so far believe there is a market for this sort of thing.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Thank you sir. The "IP lawyers" are making me out to be a bad guy. Im not in it just for profit, I like doing it, and i enjoy providing people with similar items to ones they cant afford. I truthfully see no problem in that. 99% of this site hate GWs pricing anyways, I imagined there would be more people on my side. And I wasnt looking for insults, constructive criticisim works fine. Many people here have little knowledge of IP laws. Ill be the first to say Im lacking.

Ah yes, the traditional "ignore everyone who gave the answer I didn't want and focus on the one person who agreed with me" approach. You have the right to do so, but don't complain when you get unwanted attention from GW's lawyers.

BTW, what did your lawyer say about your plan?

Dude, no need to be hostile. Just cause I dont share your opinion dosent mean you can insult me over it. And this was a poll about whether or not theres a market, not whether or not its legal. I hate getting off topic. I dont need to be portrayed as some idiot breaking the law either.

I think there is a market for high quality, though I don't think your baneblade images are that high quality. It has panels that don't meet up well, skewed barrels, some which are out of round and lacks the detail of a high end kit like GW or FW put out.

Is there a market for more mid to low end stuff? Yeah, possibly, I think you'll find that if your objective is making money, there are better ways to make money. I'd suggest if you're using decent materials and taking some time, you'll find yourself making a very low hourly rate for your work.

Me personally, if I'm buying a tank like that, I know it's going to take me a long time to paint so I'll be happier spending a bit more money to get a higher quality kit and avoiding something that is in a legally ambiguous area (since I might want to play at a GW store or event).

As for the legality, I'd definitely attempt to distance your models as much from GW models whilst keeping the same sizes and gun locations. If you use the same exact shape, same hatch locations and are basically a lower quality version of the GW models and are selling them for money, don't be surprised if you get cease and desist letters.

cadbren wrote:
I'll point out too that, despite the negative comments on this thread, nearly 3/4 of voters so far believe there is a market for this sort of thing.

Sure, but that doesn't mean a whole lot. There's clearly a market for illegal recasts of GW products, but that doesn't make it any less illegal, or make selling recasts any less stupid if you live somewhere with decent IP laws and enforcement (IOW, not China). And while 75% may say there is a market, most of them say that it's a small market, which isn't very promising.

cadbren wrote:
I will reiterate that providing sci-fi vehicles and accessories that are similar enough to GW models to be used as effective proxies is not breaking copyright. If 40k players and collectors wish to purchase non-GW proxies for their armies for use and appreciation outside of official GW events then that is their right as free people.

There's a difference between something that is similar enough and something that is a copy.

http://puppetswar.com/product.php?id_product=179 is similar enough to a Vindicator to use it as one, and that was probably the whole point of it. However, it's very clearly NOT a Vindicator. It's based on the same general concept as one, but it is its own distinct interpretation of that concept and GW can not legitimately do anything about it.

The OP is producing exact copies of GW designs, or at least as close as their skills allow. That goes way beyond "similar" and into copying the GW design and violating IP law.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
I dont need to be portrayed as some idiot breaking the law either.

Then don't break the law.

I'd be willing to buy scratchbuilds if they were styrene, and not cardboard. I think no matter how good they look as cardboard, I'd be disinclined to purchase them, as they always look so flat.

Also, I'd prefer them riveted. Time consuming, but not expensive - all you need is a $5 water softener cartridge, some thin superglue, and the pin vise you already have.

The discussion about the legalities has derailed the thread a bit. The important concepts and potential pitfalls have been communicated. Any further IP arguing will be deleted as being off-topic, and persistent offenders may be suspended.

Thanks for your cooperation.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Hey Dakka,

I wanted to know if there would be a decent market (on Dakka of course)for high quality scratch-built tanks and titans. Over the years I've improved my construction techniques and can now produce scale tanks and titans with a moderately high amount of detail and strong durability. Im considering producing large amounts for sale at very reasonable prices.

So what do you think?

Wow, your work is amazing, definitely worth considering. I'll keep you in mind, once I start working again.

Star a facebook page or a website.

I follow the Titan manufactorum, and I'd follow you too.

Great work!

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

just wondering if you could make a waiting list need be in the trading section?

I'll figure something out. I'm surprised on how many pms ive had already.

You know, now that I think about it. If you can scratchbuild that well, you may want to focus on improving GW's designs, ie make a Heldrake that isn't a Power Rangers Zoid on crack, a Defiler that isn't a walking He-Man toy.

You could also make Titans, or sell add-on Rhino and Land Raider doors.

As one other poster said, make a Thunderhawk. Or an Ork plane. Or an Ork mega-bomber. Make an example model and put a price on it.

Also, can you sculpt with green stuff? You may have a future opening up your own mini-shop, like so many others have done.

Still, I'd be interested in seeing your work.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

Those Baneblades are epic. I especially like the lack of aquillas(the GW ones are plastered in them) and quite frankly their so cheap i think i would buy them if i had money. For future reference do you ship to the UK? If so i may have to buy some stuff from you once i get a job.

I would buy tanks from you. Do you plan on stepping into ork territory?

Ork territory sounds awesome. I've done them before. I'm really gonna have to sort something out. I may start a seperate swap shop thread over the weekend. Sadlly I only have two night to work on scratch builds cause I'm going up north for the weekend. But. By the end of next week I plan to have a thread made with pics of varuous models and pricing, And possible wip shots. And a waiting list aswell depending on how many bites I get.

I can't wait to get on the wait list.

I just thought of this, have you ever thought of making the large superheavy vehicles that don't currently have models? Like a Nurgle Plague Tower? Cuz I'd love to have the basic shape of a Nurgle Plague Tower, and then add the resin add-on bits from that one company.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

Probably the best thing you could do is to build one and take photos or even video through the whole process and make a painting log on forums like DakkaDakka. People will notice your skills and get invested in the process.

I agree with the other posters. You seem to have quite a bit of talent and patience and I think you could make the most of it by making items that aren't commercially available: Plague Towers, terrain, Ork vehicles, etc. Defensive items are popular now ... could have quite a bit of fun there.

Dunno about scratch-built Imperial stuff, but I imagine that a well-designed and fun Ork vehicle scratch-buidl could fetch a good price.

 Melissia wrote:
Dunno about scratch-built Imperial stuff, but I imagine that a well-designed and fun Ork vehicle scratch-buidl could fetch a good price.

I'd kill for that one giant Ork airplane that's making the rounds.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

Well, I seriously doubt you can do this on a large scale. As others have said, you're using GW IP so they won't be happy with your activity. Maybe if you do not open any officially recognised enterprise and you use exclusively wargame forums like dakka or warseer to promote your work, you will go away with it.
As a side note, I love your baneblades and with just a little refinement I would consider to buy one of these but... I definitely hate the tracks (at least if I have to judge on the basis of the pic you posted), so you could consider to find a different way to make them...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, ork stuff would be easier to commercialize and to avoid IP-related problems.

 punkow wrote:
Well, I seriously doubt you can do this on a large scale. As others have said, you're using GW IP so they won't be happy with your activity. Maybe if you do not open any officially recognised enterprise and you use exclusively wargame forums like dakka or warseer to promote your work, you will go away with it.
As a side note, I love your baneblades and with just a little refinement I would consider to buy one of these but... I definitely hate the tracks (at least if I have to judge on the basis of the pic you posted), so you could consider to find a different way to make them...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, ork stuff would be easier to commercialize and to avoid IP-related problems.

Yeah, I thought we weren;'t going to discuss IP-stuff?

The Titan Manufactorum seems to be making a go of it though.

The guy from Crusader 29 made a ton of great not-Imperial buildings and not-Ork vehicles before he started ripping people off and disappeared, It was a great idea, and he probably made good cash, I don't know why he had to rip people off like that.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

I'll certainly avoid ripping people off. Haha

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:

cadbren wrote:
There's no reason the OP cannot make a baneblade like tank that can be customized by customers with GW parts to make something that fits in-universe.
Anything not specific to GW is barred from official events anyway so this wont effect people building up tournament armies.
The OP is providing those who play informally and who model a chance to have something that more approximates the GW version, or even adds variety to an existing collection.
Let all the "IP lawyers" in this thread take a running jump. I doubt any of you have actual legal experience and are simply parroting the naysayers that infest the net.
To the OP, you might also want to look at the scenery market such as wrecked vehicles, generators, large containers etc as well as turret type gun emplacements.

Thank you sir. The "IP lawyers" are making me out to be a bad guy. Im not in it just for profit, I like doing it, and i enjoy providing people with similar items to ones they cant afford. I truthfully see no problem in that. 99% of this site hate GWs pricing anyways, I imagined there would be more people on my side. And I wasnt looking for insults, constructive criticisim works fine. Many people here have little knowledge of IP laws. Ill be the first to say Im lacking.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And what about Warlord titans? There is no model in the 28mm range, Is it CR infringment to create one?

Who says it has to be in 28mm, Its just a large action figure?
maybe?

My two cents. There is a market, and quite a large one at that. GW are brilliant for including apocalypse and other areas with units that don't have models or require extensive conversions to make.

IMHO I'd go for that market, it's easier, there's no templates or patterns. And the work would be more personalised.

Also consider me subbed, and consider yourself exalted.

Sweet! High Quality scratch builds? Can you link where we get the from? No one seems to have linked or put photos on this thread yet.

Just got back from the UP, starting a warhound tonight.

You should start a thread now in P&M blogs so people can follow your work, and take a lot of pictures of your process. People like reading that stuff, and you'll reach more customers who are fascinated but don't have the skills or tools to do what you do.

Thanks for the idea!

Just thought I'd ask how your modelling is coming along-many of us are waiting with baited breath.

Working on the second and third warhounds . Should be done and up on Sunday. Soo pics and finisjed photos.

Sweet. Can't wait to see them. Coincidentally, I'll be in your neck of the woods next weekend-I have to go to Michigan for work. Small world, no? And I'm not sure where yet in Michigan-my boss hasn't felt delighted enough to tell me yet...

If you are interested in work for a company let me know as i could use those talents. Mind you i mean for my own IP and not GW.

Power outage has slowed work to a stand still, however. Pics will be up of progress in a few min. I'm scratching the wait list idea. Every four days ill bump the thread with my stock list. First come, first serve.

Pics up

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
Pics up

Nice looks about where my warhound is at right now. I have two guns with magnets on it now. I got slowed down cause i started painting figures again and i am not looking forward to the legs lol.

At the end of the day, quality is everything, if they look the business, sure they will sell.

The BBs look pretty awesome by the way, good job.

Why do I suddenly feel very happy about having asked you about that 'special' project I plan on commissioning you for?

Keep up the good work.

Thanks guys. I'm putting the other two warhound torsos tonight