There is a 1750 tournament coming up this upcoming Saturday at our local LGS. It's been a while since my last tournament (last summer), which was the Golden Throne. I've decided to take a day off from work in order to participate in this one. Some of the dakkalites that will show up include Janthkin, Grey Therion and possibly Kingsley as well. Too bad SabrX won't be going.
Now I haven't really decided which army I will be bringing yet, but I have a couple of armies in mind. Let me know what armies you guys would like to see in action.
Thoughts: This is a tournament-winning army. However, I'm thinking of saving this one for the Bay Area Open. Probably, bugs and necrons are my 2 strongest tournament armies currently. Grade: A.
Thoughts: Another tournament-winning army. As a matter of fact, I won the Golden Throne using a 1500-pt version of this list. Probably the hardest list to fight due to its 4 flyers. However, I'm thinking of saving this one for the Bay Area Open. Probably, bugs and necrons are my 2 strongest tournament armies currently. Grade: A+.
3x Obliterators - Mark of Nurgle, Veterans of the Long War
3x Obliterators - Mark of Nurgle, Veterans of the Long War
Thoughts: Unproven army build that is more of a fun list than a competitive one. I admit that I really want to test this list out in a tournament to see how competitive it really is. Of all the lists here, this one is probably the only underdog list. But that's what I love about it - the challenge of playing as an underdog. Will probably get destroyed my Janthkin's tyranids....or I may surprise him. Grade: B.
10x Grey Hunters - 2x Meltaguns, Mark of the Wulfen, Wolf Standard
10x Grey Hunters - 2x Plasmas, Mark of the Wulfen, Wolf Standard
10x Grey Hunters - 2x Plasmas, Mark of the Wulfen, Wolf Standard
10x Grey Hunters - 2x Plasmas, Mark of the Wulfen, Wolf Standard
5x Grey Hunters - 1x Plasma
6x Long Fangs Alpha - 5x Missile Launchers
6x Long Fangs Beta - 5x Missile Launchers
5x Long Fangs Delta - 4x Missile Launchers
Aegis Defense Line - Quad-guns
Thoughts: Strong tournament army. It has the potential to win it all, however, it's also got its weaknesses. I'm actually in the mood to bring my Wolves or my Chaos. Will definitely give tyranids, necrons and Tau a hard time due to its psychic powers. Grade: A-.
Dreadknight - Heavy Incinerator, Personal Teleporter
Dreadknight - Heavy Incinerator, Personal Teleporter
Psyfleman Dreadnought - 2x TL-Autocannons, Psybolt Ammo
Aegis Defense Line - Quad-guns
Thoughts: Another strong tournament army. I think this list is about on par with my space wolves. I've modified my original list, dropping 1 unit of strikers (firepower & scoring) for more support (psyfleman) and better mobility (teleporters on dreadknights). It may have problems against Janthkin's tyranids, but otherwise is very solid. Grade: A-.
I'd say really challenge yourself by playing your evolving Chaos list.
I'm not very familiar with the new Chaos book, but judging by their success in your recent reports have you thought about finding a way to include another large group of Nurgle spawn?
It seems since you added them to the list they've been able to add a dynamic element to your attack that was lacking before.
Are you completely sold on using Abaddon? Obviously quite deadly in melee, but that's a lot of points spent doing little until then, and his lack of mobility might be exploited in a competitive setting.
Dropping him would get you another Nurgle spawn group and 80(?) points to play with.
No matter what you choose I'm looking forward to the reports that will follow.
I would prefer to see Necrons, seems currently that players do more and more flying stuff so I would very much like to see how/if your opponents will counter your flying
and as above I would very much like to read further reports!
Eldercaveman wrote: I want to see the Nids ruin some people day when they under estimate how good they are.
It's a little local tournament; I can assure you that no one who would be there would underestimate tyranids.
I'd vote against your Tyranids, just because of time issues - I'm not sure you're up to pace yet, given how multiple barrage weapons tend to screw with time. If you do bring them, make sure you have multiple large blast markers to speed it up. For that matter, having one of them with thin legs (so that it can stand on the table) would actually be very handy for that scenario.
Chaos seems like the most fun (non-Tyranid) list to play of your available options.
Hey, good to hear you will be at the tournament! I will be there as well.
I think that, of those armies, playing your Tyranids will probably maximize your chances of winning-- I actually think it's better than the Necrons overall-- but I think the Chaos army is the coolest and I would love to see it in action.
Eldarain wrote: I'd say really challenge yourself by playing your evolving Chaos list.
I'm not very familiar with the new Chaos book, but judging by their success in your recent reports have you thought about finding a way to include another large group of Nurgle spawn?
It seems since you added them to the list they've been able to add a dynamic element to your attack that was lacking before.
Are you completely sold on using Abaddon? Obviously quite deadly in melee, but that's a lot of points spent doing little until then, and his lack of mobility might be exploited in a competitive setting.
Dropping him would get you another Nurgle spawn group and 80(?) points to play with.
No matter what you choose I'm looking forward to the reports that will follow.
I don't really feel that I need another unit of Chaos Spawn. They are good but they are more of a tarpitting unit than a killy unit, and I've already got a lot of tarpitting units in this list. If anything, what I need is another heldrake, but I'd probably have to dump Abaddon or 2 oblits and some zombies to fit it in.
Abaddon is mainly for fun. If I want a truly balanced list, I'd drop him and his big block of zombies for plague marines and maybe another Fast Attack (i.e. another Heldrake or more Chaos spawns). I am taking him because....well, he's Abaddon and he's there to kick a$$ and take names.
Fikol wrote: I would prefer to see Necrons, seems currently that players do more and more flying stuff so I would very much like to see how/if your opponents will counter your flying
and as above I would very much like to read further reports!
Probably the only counter is Janthkin's flyer necrons and that is only if he isn't taking his bugs. Honestly, I don't think there will be good counters to my flyer wraithwing crons because there probably won't be more than 20 players. It's not a really big tournament.
Eldercaveman wrote: I want to see the Nids ruin some people day when they under estimate how good they are.
Janthkin wrote: It's a little local tournament; I can assure you that no one who would be there would underestimate tyranids.
I'd vote against your Tyranids, just because of time issues - I'm not sure you're up to pace yet, given how multiple barrage weapons tend to screw with time. If you do bring them, make sure you have multiple large blast markers to speed it up. For that matter, having one of them with thin legs (so that it can stand on the table) would actually be very handy for that scenario.
Chaos seems like the most fun (non-Tyranid) list to play of your available options.
Right, I don't believe anyone here will under-estimate tyranids. Both Janthkin and my tyranids are a horror to play against. Most people are scratching their heads trying to figure out how to beat them. Here, tyranids are very intimidating. It may have something to do with the generals who are running them.
If we both bring bugs, I hope we can even make it to Turn 4 should we play against each other.
It'll definitely be interesting to see the clash in tyranid styles - my dual-flyrant/biovore nids against Janthkin's Swarmlord-led/stealer-ymgarl infested bugs. We need to have that matchup one of these days.
Nids, most balanced all comers list
Gk, they are still good
Necrons, op army atm, maybe you will have to many mirror matches.
Agreed. All those armies are still strong. I'd also actually group space wolves up there with the grey knights. They are still very good.
Panopticon wrote: Chaos does seem the most fun, also I think it is a lot more competitive than people give it credit for.
Yeah, they are the type of armies that can surprise some opponents. However, they are also one of my lesser balanced armies. "Fun" is definitely a word I would use to describe them.
xXWeaponPrimeXx wrote: I would have to say your Chaos army. You obviously wanna play test it, and what better time than now?
That may well be the case. Right now, Chaos and tyranids are in the lead.
Kingsley wrote: Hey, good to hear you will be at the tournament! I will be there as well.
I think that, of those armies, playing your Tyranids will probably maximize your chances of winning-- I actually think it's better than the Necrons overall-- but I think the Chaos army is the coolest and I would love to see it in action.
Awesome. Looking forwards to a rematch. Your space marines are actually really good. Can't wait to crush....I mean, play them again.
Yeah, if the votes for bugs and chaos are really close, I may just end up bringing Chaos and saving my bugs for the BAO. My goal isn't necessarily to win the tournament, but to give my armies some good practice.
Valek wrote: With the new faqs the GK Footknights would do well, changing out that dread for a Vindicaire...
I may just do that. With the new FAQ, he seems to be viable once again. Need to do some playtesting.
However, dropping the psyfleman means I will be getting rid of my psychic defense.
Jy2, too bad you don't have a 6th list. You could roll a D6 and let the dice gods decide!
Any of the lists are fine. You could also mix it up with allies to make it more interesting.
If it weren't for lack of scoring mobility, I would have voted CSM. CSM + Necron combo could fix that. Otherwise, Spaces Wolves is a solid choice. However, like your CSM, they also lack mobility.
Sabrx- doesn't he have an ork army I endorse this dice god trick!
jy2- Have you read the recent FAQ!?!? The Hell turkey got....BETTER! I'd say squeeze in a second soon but definitely bring Chaos, well, if the die roll falls through
Ok, the new FAQ's are out and they have actually helped out some of the armies:
Necrons
When a night scythe is wrecked, the passengers go back into reserves without taking damage.
Chaos Space Marines
Heldrakes have a 360 arc of fire for their gus, measured from their base.
No cover saves from its Vector Strikes (applies to all armies).
Abaddon can join any marked units.
Grey Knights
Force weapon activation occurs before FNP saves.
Vindicare's shot overrides Look-Out-Sirs! That means I may have to consider him in my lists now.
SabrX wrote: Jy2, too bad you don't have a 6th list. You could roll a D6 and let the dice gods decide!
Any of the lists are fine. You could also mix it up with allies to make it more interesting.
If it weren't for lack of scoring mobility, I would have voted CSM. CSM + Necron combo could fix that. Otherwise, Spaces Wolves is a solid choice. However, like your CSM, they also lack mobility.
I can still D6 it. The 6th list could always be Other or Surprise List.
For some reason, I prefer to use purist lists. Maybe it has something to do with everyone on the net saying that you need allies to compete. Eventually I will get into allies (already have with my Epidemius-CSM army), but that probably won't be until after the BAO.
The only thing preventing the GK's and SW's from getting an A grade is their lack of mobility. If they had a little more mobility, then they would be truly dominating.
Red Corsair wrote: Sabrx- doesn't he have an ork army I endorse this dice god trick!
jy2- Have you read the recent FAQ!?!? The Hell turkey got....BETTER! I'd say squeeze in a second soon but definitely bring Chaos, well, if the die roll falls through
Yeah, that helturkey is a beast! If I had 2, I would definitely bring them. He just may be the best flyer in the game currently. I almost feel sorry for the Imperial armies!
Alas, I can see a lot of people whining about it. Heck, even I probably would if I had to go against the double-dragons with my MEQ armies.
Fortunately, my Xenos armies don't care.
Dozer Blades wrote: Save your Bugz for BAO. I voted for CSM - go have some fun.
Yeah, that's what I am thinking. For the BAO, there's going to be a future poll about whether I should bring my bugs or my crons....though it would be glorious if the bugs can take that one.
I voted bugs, but upon reading these responses and reflecting on my own experiences, I want to change my mind and say go with what you think will be fun or challenging. My tyranids are largely undefeated in my area (in 6th, mind you) and I too have been trying to figure out which army I want to play next. I have Necrons, Tau, and Blood Angels - the marines in red haven't seen any table time in 6th and i'm strongly considering trying them out again.
Back to your original point - I suggest playing around with Chaos. The codex is obviously new even with the Dark Angels stealing the spotlight this month, and I am not sure anybody has 'broken' it yet into a tournament list. Sure...plenty have made strong and functional lists but at least locally i haven't seen anybody dominating with chaos yet. Give it a whirl and see how it goes -- you'll also find yourself having more fun when your list isn't utterly dominating the competition the way your Tyranids tend to do.
Regardless of which army you choose I look forward to reading the forthcoming batreps!
jy2 wrote: Ok, the new FAQ's are out and they have actually helped out some of the armies:
Necrons
When a night scythe is wrecked, the passengers go back into reserves without taking damage.
Chaos Space Marines
Heldrakes have a 360 arc of fire for their gus, measured from their base.
No cover saves from its Vector Strikes (applies to all armies).
Abaddon can join any marked units.
Grey Knights
Force weapon activation occurs before FNP saves.
Vindicare's shot overrides Look-Out-Sirs! That means I may have to consider him in my lists now.
SabrX wrote: Jy2, too bad you don't have a 6th list. You could roll a D6 and let the dice gods decide!
Any of the lists are fine. You could also mix it up with allies to make it more interesting.
If it weren't for lack of scoring mobility, I would have voted CSM. CSM + Necron combo could fix that. Otherwise, Spaces Wolves is a solid choice. However, like your CSM, they also lack mobility.
I can still D6 it. The 6th list could always be Other or Surprise List.
For some reason, I prefer to use purist lists. Maybe it has something to do with everyone on the net saying that you need allies to compete. Eventually I will get into allies (already have with my Epidemius-CSM army), but that probably won't be until after the BAO.
The only thing preventing the GK's and SW's from getting an A grade is their lack of mobility. If they had a little more mobility, then they would be truly dominating.
Red Corsair wrote: Sabrx- doesn't he have an ork army I endorse this dice god trick!
jy2- Have you read the recent FAQ!?!? The Hell turkey got....BETTER! I'd say squeeze in a second soon but definitely bring Chaos, well, if the die roll falls through
Yeah, that helturkey is a beast! If I had 2, I would definitely bring them. He just may be the best flyer in the game currently. I almost feel sorry for the Imperial armies!
Alas, I can see a lot of people whining about it. Heck, even I probably would if I had to go against the double-dragons with my MEQ armies.
Fortunately, my Xenos armies don't care.
Dozer Blades wrote: Save your Bugz for BAO. I voted for CSM - go have some fun.
Yeah, that's what I am thinking. For the BAO, there's going to be a future poll about whether I should bring my bugs or my crons....though it would be glorious if the bugs can take that one.
You missed an important one for Doom, he now has a 12 inch threat range from the pod, and you can put an endurance on him the turn he lands from another psyker.
You missed an important one for Doom, he now has a 12 inch threat range from the pod, and you can put an endurance on him the turn he lands from another psyker.
Are you sure about the Reserve Rolls and Endurance? Then does that mean the Doom can also cast Iron Arm on the turn he comes in? I was under the impression that when the pods come in, it is no longer the start of the Movement phase. At the start of the Movement is when you check to see which Reserves will be coming in.
Wow...that would be quite a big boon if this was true.
tetrisphreak wrote: I voted bugs, but upon reading these responses and reflecting on my own experiences, I want to change my mind and say go with what you think will be fun or challenging. My tyranids are largely undefeated in my area (in 6th, mind you) and I too have been trying to figure out which army I want to play next. I have Necrons, Tau, and Blood Angels - the marines in red haven't seen any table time in 6th and i'm strongly considering trying them out again.
Back to your original point - I suggest playing around with Chaos. The codex is obviously new even with the Dark Angels stealing the spotlight this month, and I am not sure anybody has 'broken' it yet into a tournament list. Sure...plenty have made strong and functional lists but at least locally i haven't seen anybody dominating with chaos yet. Give it a whirl and see how it goes -- you'll also find yourself having more fun when your list isn't utterly dominating the competition the way your Tyranids tend to do.
Regardless of which army you choose I look forward to reading the forthcoming batreps!
Go for it. Give your Angels a try. I've actually got a BA army as well. It is somewhat similar to SabrX's, only I run 3x5 devastators instead of the stormraven and a little less terminators. As with my wolves and guard, I don't play it very much (at all!) lately.
I feel that Chaos will be as competitive as their heldrakes take them. Those heldrakes are game-winners. The more you take, the more competitive the army becomes. Ideally, a good Chaos army will have at least 2 heldrakes, but that is probably the only cookie-cutter units in the book. 1 heldrake will make it a lot more challenging. But whatever you take, Chaos definitely won't be game-breaking in tournament play. A lot of the xenos armies don't fear the helturkeys.
You missed an important one for Doom, he now has a 12 inch threat range from the pod, and you can put an endurance on him the turn he lands from another psyker.
Are you sure about the Reserve Rolls and Endurance? Then does that mean the Doom can also cast Iron Arm on the turn he comes in? I was under the impression that when the pods come in, it is no longer the start of the Movement phase. At the start of the Movement is when you check to see which Reserves will be coming in.
Wow...that would be quite a big boon if this was true.
No can't cast on him self, but I pretty sure he can be given endurance by another Psyker now, which still helps.
Valek wrote: With the new faqs the GK Footknights would do well, changing out that dread for a Vindicaire...
I may just do that. With the new FAQ, he seems to be viable once again. Need to do some playtesting.
However, dropping the psyfleman means I will be getting rid of my psychic defense.
I don't see the difference, he will oneshot most psykers in the game, and no lookout sir, on the fat ones he will add 2 wounds a turn... or take out their inv, which you can then introduce them to one of your Dreadknights for some slapping...
And he will be easier to gain first blood than the dread, sniping a IC with 2 wounds or a rhino like thing on turn one. More than the dread he wil dictate your enemies movement, and he is well protected with allthose footknights and dreadknights around him.
Just had a test game with my Double-Trouble Chaos Space Marines (List #3). Didn't do a battle report but will give a summary.
My opponent will be attending the tournament as well and for tonight, he brought a combo Necron/Chaos list (probably won't be his final list, especially not after our game).
Anyways he brought:
Necron Lord
Chaos Lord
19x Cultists - Shooty
19x Cultists - Choppy
5x Immortals - Night Scythe
5x Immortals - Night Scythe
5x Immortals - Night Scythe
5x Immortals - Night Scythe
6x Wraiths - 3x Whips
Heldrake - Baleflamer
Forgefiend - Hades Autocannons
We played The Scouring. He ended up killing the Heldrake and 1 unit of zombies only for 1 VP (Fast Attack). I shot down 2 flyers, got First Blood (wraiths), 2 Fast Attacks (Heldrake + Wraiths), Linebreaker and 3 objectives (4+3+1) for a total of 12 VP's. Overall, it was good practice. I believe he will be switching up his list after this game. I feel more confident now against flyer armies. Now he is thinking about running a pure Necron army with 4-5 flyers and 12 wraiths.
IMO your opponent was on the right track in Necron + Chaos list combo, but should have tweaked it with less flyers and more some heavy support.
The problem with fielding so many flyers is the same with any reserve armies. It's unpredictable when reserves come in (though there are some options to make it chances higher) and it puts immense pressure on the units already deployed on the table. An effective first turn of shooting can cripple ground forces, turning the game into a meat grinder.
A hybrid between Jy2's CSM list and Necrons may have been more effective:
-Typhus
-25 Zombies
-25 Zombies
-10 Zombies
-Helldrake, Baleflamer
-3 Oblits, Mark of Nurgle, Veterans of Long War
-3 Oblits, Mark of Nurgle, Veterans of Long War
Yeah I voted Nids, but after what you guys said about the size of this tournament, I do want to see you rock out something different. We'll see enough of the bugs come BAO
Zathras wrote: I'll be there as well with the Necron Legion of Undying Imhotep.
Will see you guys there. If you guys are rocking crons, there's going to be a lot of necrons and flyers at this tournament. I believe Devin is also going to bring his crons.
Fortunately, neither Janthkin nor I will be bringing our necrons. That'll be too many necrons! Instead, we've been corrupted by the Warp side....
Overall, it was a great tournament. The turnout was 20, which is above-average for our area. Usually, the local 1-day tournies are only around 12-15 players, but it's been a while since our last tournament.
From scanning the event, the types of armies included:
1 Biker army (my opponent from this game 40K Video Bat Rep: Jy2′s Chaos vs. Capt’n Dees’ Biker Marines 1750 BAO Practice Game)
1 Blood Angels (meched, land raider + triple-vindies)
1 Eldar (mix foot-list)
1 Green Tide Orks (150+ models)
1 Necrons (12 wraiths, 2 D-lords, 28 immortals in 2 night scythes and 3 annihilation barges)
1 Space Marines w/Tau allies (my opponent from this game 1750 BAO Practice Match - Hive Fleet Pandora vs Space Marines/Tau)
1 Space Marines w/IG allies (thunderfires, stormtalons, hydras....an oddball mix of a list)
1 Space Wolves w/IG allies (lots and lots of bodies, somewhat similar to my wolves though with IG blob squad)
1 Tyranids (Swarmlord, flyrant, 2 tervigons....basically Janthkin's list but run by another player)
1 Imperial Guard (2 vendettas, 3 leman russes, massed infantry)
2 Dark Angels (1 Deathwing and 1 mix)
2 Chaos (my Nurgle list and Janthkin was running Slaanesh with daemon allies for the very first time)
1-2 more Space Marine armies.
4-5 Grey Knights, ranging from triple-stormravens to triple-dreadknights to Crowe/Coteaz Purifiers/Henchmen.
First off, I'd like to thank Devin for taking the time to plan and run this tournament. He did a great job, there were no issues and everything was on-time. Now with that said, let's go onto the lists.
It wasn't even close. My Hive Fleet Pandora blew away all the other lists in the voting. However, I decided to bring my 2nd most popular list - the runner-ups, my Double Trouble Dynamic Duo Chaos list - mainly because I wanted to see how they would do in a competitive setting and also because I am saving my tyranids for a "future tournament".
List-wise, there were no easy opponents. All my opponents had brought tough, tough lists and my 2nd round opponent (who I've played against before) is a really good player. The other 2 opponents I have never played against before.
Dreadknight - Heavy Incinerator, Nemesis Greatsword, Personal Teleporter
Dreadknight - Heavy Incinerator, Nemesis Greatsword, Personal Teleporter
Dreadknight - Heavy Incinerator, Nemesis Greatsword, Personal Teleporter
Thoughts: I've seen Mike around at our LGS almost every week. However, I have yet to play against him. He brought a very tough Coteaz-Mordrak MSUGK list and I knew that this would be a tough, tough battle. Ironically, he brought this list on Thursday prior to the tournament and absolutely obliterated the Space Marine/IG player (who is also in this tournament as well) in a practice game. I then asked him if he was going to bring this list to the tournament and he said he wasn't sure. Well, for some reason, I think he was sure.
Thoughts: I've played against Kingsley before (1750 BAO Practice Match - Hive Fleet Pandora vs Space Marines/Tau). He is a very good player and his space marines are very deceptive. On paper, it doesn't look so dangerous, but it's got a lot of hidden synergies and he really knows how to play his army. Similar to the very first time I played against Janthkin, I believe it is the general that makes the list work, and his list almost blew away my bugs in our last game. I can't under-estimate Kingsley.
Rune Priest - Chooser, Terminator Armor, Jaws, Living Lightning
Company Command Squad
10x Grey Hunters - 2x Meltas, Mark of the Wulfen, Rhino
10x Grey Hunters - 2x Meltas, Mark of the Wulfen, Rhino
10x Grey Hunters - 2x Plasmas
10x Grey Hunters - 2x Plasmas
Platoon Command Squad
10x Infantry Squad - Autocannon
10x Infantry Squad - Autocannon
10x Infantry Squad - Flamer
Vendetta - Heavy Bolter Sponsoons
6x Long Fangs - 5x Missiles
6x Long Fangs - 5x Missiles
6x Long Fangs - 5x Missiles
Razorback - TL-Lascannons
Thoughts: Wow! Death by volume. While Phil does not have a lot of AP2 weaponry, his volume of attacks is a big concern to my zombies. That and Jaws against Typhus. If my opponent knows what he is doing, his army has the potential to really dominate mine, perhaps even tabling it. That list is nasty! Fortunately for me, I've been playing horde Space Wolves recently as well and know the strengths and weaknesses of both armies. My experience may be the edge I need to pull off a victory here. However, I have no idea what type of general my opponent is....
3 dreadknight flamers and the firepower of the razorbacks will obliterate zombies. Abbadon is the only issue for him, typhus is almost an autokill for Mordrak or the Knights.
Marines Tau: Win
Oblits will take out those vindies then you can just move on with the horde and drown them in bodies. Helldrake to burn things out of cover and Vector strike things on the bastion.
Space Wolves Guard: Win
the list could be much stronger, no fearless blob so i think you take this one, zombies beat imperial guard in hth, Oblits can take out those long fangs, helldrake will be gold.
the list could be much stronger, no fearless blob so i think you take this one, zombies beat imperial guard in hth, Oblits can take out those long fangs, helldrake will be gold.
You don't know how good an IG blob is with ATSKNF. Put a space marine IC in there and now they can flee from combat, auto-regroup and then light you up next turn with FRF!SRF! flashlights. Then let you assault again, break them and shoot you again. They cannot be swept due to ATSKNF. It's much, much better than a fearless or stubborn blob.
the list could be much stronger, no fearless blob so i think you take this one, zombies beat imperial guard in hth, Oblits can take out those long fangs, helldrake will be gold.
You don't know how good an IG blob is with ATSKNF. Put a space marine IC in there and now they can flee from combat, auto-regroup and then light you up next turn with FRF!SRF! flashlights. Then let you assault again, break them and shoot you again. They cannot be swept due to ATSKNF. It's much, much better than a fearless or stubborn blob.
+1 That list is actually really really good. Too many bodies for you chaos list to grind down so I think this will come down to mission parameters and how good he was as you said. Didn't I suggest squeezing a second turkey into your list
The grey knights actually look to have the FP to do some damage but you can actually play the range game alright against him by tanking shots with your two terminator lords and using the oblits and turkey to crack his rides.
Kinsley also has a lot of good weapons for dealing with your zombies, over all I think you were delt a good roster of opponents with hard armies. Must have been a blast!
The CSM list you brought is unconventional and while it has a large number of wounds it really relies on its special characters to do the heavy lifting. It is also really slow, so it is hard to say who won the games without knowing the missions. Just based on the ability to inflict damage on your army...
Coteaze/Mordrak GK - this is an alpha strike style army with the releporters and Mordrak DS'ing in. I think he is probably going to wreck you by rolling up a flank relatively unmolested. Mordraks unit is the second part of a 1 - 2 dreadknight punch. Henchmen require you to assault them twice in most cases to take them down (once to kill the vehicle, once to kill the squad).
:: Victory GK
SM/Tau - I think you win this one narrowly. he does not have the volume of fire to take you out - even with his templates. The Obliterators play a key role here taking down the Vindicators while the Spawn hit the lines first to tie up his Fire Warriors and the Zombies pile on to finish them off.
:: Victory CSM
SW/IG - Too much small arms fire! You get stuck in but not until too late. The blob holds up Abaddon and Typhus by sacrificing leaders to them while the wolves shred the rest of the troops. Long Fangs first take down the Spawn and then start working on the obliterators. I also predict Abaddon Spawns himself from the Chaos Boon table in this one!
::Victor SW/IG
You end up losing 2, but have a good time with a quirky fun and unexpected list. That is my take at least, especially if you are skipping the AFC divisional game to write the first report.
calypso2ts wrote: The CSM list you brought is unconventional and while it has a large number of wounds it really relies on its special characters to do the heavy lifting. It is also really slow, so it is hard to say who won the games without knowing the missions. Just based on the ability to inflict damage on your army...
True. It is not a balanced list with actually very little shooting and very low mobility (my main guys can't even run!). Hence I consider it more of a "fun" list than a competitive one. But it will be funny to see my opponents throw their arm up in futility trying to kill all those zombies. Lol.
I also predict Abaddon Spawns himself from the Chaos Boon table in this one!
Lol...such is the way of Chaos.
Ub3rb3n wrote: do your chaos list, i just played and it was so fun ended up going 3-1 in the tourney lost to a eldar tau combo
Congrats! The list is actually quite fun and will surprise some people. It is actually better than it looks on paper...which isn't actually saying much.
Very interested to read your reports and see how you did. I have been playing around with a Zombie list too but I'm using a Nurgle Lord with Burning Brand and Biker squad in place of Abbie and the Spawn. They basically die first turn every game but they keep the heat off the zombies for a bit. What does Abbie do for your list? The Heldrake is pure gold and I run him in my list as well. After seeing how he did vs. MEQ and then having the FAQ make him even better... I need another one!
Go go reports, hope to read one tonight after work.
Dreadknight - Heavy Incinerator, Nemesis Greatsword, Personal Teleporter
Dreadknight - Heavy Incinerator, Nemesis Greatsword, Personal Teleporter
Dreadknight - Heavy Incinerator, Nemesis Greatsword, Personal Teleporter
PRE-GAME THOUGHTS: This army may give me problems. If he plays aggressively - shunt all 3 dreadknights and drop Mordrak in my deployment zone on Turn 1 - and goes after one of my flanks, I may be in trouble. The problem with this is that I can't react fast enough to deal with all 4 threats. He can potentially keep me contained in my own deployment zone while his shooty troops just hang out by his objectives. Even if I kill all his threats, it will take a while and I may end up out of position relative to my objectives. That's all he really has to do to win this....just keep my units "distracted" trying to kill his and win on objectives. I will get First Blood. However, if any of his "threats" survive, then he will get Linebreaker. Also, my oblits may be too pre-occupied with his "threats" to really deal with his transports. Thus, my heldrake will probably not have many targets on the turn that it comes in, other than to fire at vehicles.
Overall, I think this is going to be a tough fight for my Chaos against a really good GK list.
GK deployment. For his Warlord trait, he gets a scoring Mordrak. Also, for Grand Strategy, he gets 1 scoring dreadknight.
Hot damn! He's got 8 scoring units. I've got 7 scoring units because of the Scouring. However, my helturkey and chaos spawn are worth Victory Points as well if killed.
For his psychic powers, Coteaz gets Prescience and Foreboding.
Typhus gets Gift of Contagion and Plague Wind.
My deployment. I string and spread out my zombies to minimize the impact of those heavy incinerators. I deploy 2 10-man zombie units along my board edge and leave 1 in reserves. Finally, I centralize my characters and oblits so that if my opponent were to refuse flank me, I would be able to react better.
We then flip over the objectives. Fortunately for me, I get the 4, 3 and 2-pt objectives whereas my opponent gets the 3, 2 and 1-pt objectives. So now I know my opponent is definitely going to be coming towards me.
My opponent is weary of both of my HQ's. He shunts 1 dreadknight into the ruins (on my right flank) both to try to get 4+ cover and to get away from either of my HQ's. He also drops Mordrak in the vicinity. Dreadknight fails both his dangerous terrain test as well as his armor save to take 1W.
The rest of his army moves forward 6". Dreadknights move laterally to my right.
Heavy incinerator and shooting from his tanks kill 8 zombies from Abaddon's unit.
He also manages to wound Abaddon's unit 3 times. I decide not to Look-Out-Sir! on them....and then proceed to fail all 3 saves for my Warlord!
Not a very good start for me....
Chaos 1
Spoiler:
Chaos movement. Everyone shifts to the right.
My plan is to tarpit Mordrak's unit with spawns and zombies and to kill off his dreadknight with Abaddon.
I then fire plasma cannons from the farther oblit squad at Mordrak's unit and twin-linked double-tap plasmas at his dreadknight. Mordrak only loses 1 ghost knight thanks to Stealth and the dreadknight only takes 1W thanks to 4+ cover from the ruins (to 2 of my oblits anyways).
Charge! I challenge his dreadknight with my zombie champion which he promptly squishes. Abaddon will fight next turn.
Spawns and zombies would kill 2 ghost knights and lose 2 zombies. I forget to challenge with my zombie leader.
Grey Knights 2
Spoiler:
Overview of the top of Turn 2.
Now that Abaddon is locked in combat, my opponent begins to play more aggressively. He shunts both dreadknights right up in my face. His tanks advance slightly.
Shooting kills 9 zombies and puts 2W on my man, Typhus.
He also puts 1W on an oblit.
In assault, we have a slight rules dispute with regards to challenges. I was under the impression that you can issue another challenge in combat after a challenge has been resolved. He said that there can only be 1 challenge per combat. I give in because I didn't want to spend too much time trying to find the rules in the book. In any case, it's better for Abaddon if he's not in a challenge and he kills the dreadknight with his daemon weapon (wounded 3 times and my opponent failed 2 invulns). I get First Blood just as I expected.
In the other combat, Mordrak insta-kills 3 spawns with his daemonhammer!
Chaos 2
Spoiler:
Chaos movement. Zombies come in.
So does my heldrake. Here we have another rules dispute. I'm pretty sure Coteaz cannot use I've Been Expecting You from within a transport. The very same thing happened to me at the Golden Throne. However, during the game, I just couldn't find that rule in the rulebook (after searching for 2 minutes, I gave up). Thus, his unit shot twin-linked (from Prescience) plasmas into the rear of my dragon.
He immobilizes my dragon, but not before I weapon destroy and shake/stun his chimera with my vector strike (I did 2 Hull Points of damage).
My helturkey then flames and wrecks it.
Notice anything missing? That's right, both dreadknights are gone. Typhus fires his Plague Wind and oblits fire TL-plasmas and TL-meltaguns. My opponent would then proceed to fail almost all his invulns!!! I did not even have to assault to finish them off!
In combat, Mordrak finishes off the spawns. The grey knights also get +1 VP for killing one of my Fast Attacks.
Grey Knights 3
Spoiler:
Overview of the top of Turn 3.
After losing all 3 dreadknights, my opponent is now in a heap of trouble.
His vehicles shuffle around.
He continues to focus on Typhus and kills another 8 zombies as I LOS almost all the damage to them.
A couple of tanks fire at Abaddon's unit and I LOS to the zombies, killing 2.
In assault, I am down to 2 zombies only.
Chaos 3
Spoiler:
Zombies go hide behind the ruins and in range of an objective. Abaddon breaks off from them to go after Mordrak. Oblits advance.
Zombies scramble after objectives. Typhus joins the oblits as they advance.
Heldrake flies off the board Abaddon runs.
Oblits take off 2 HP's from the assback (razorback w/assault cannons) and shake it.
Either we forget about the Mordrak combat or he whiffs big time against 2 zombies.
Grey Knights 4
Spoiler:
Overview of the top of Turn 4.
Assback drops off his troops on the left objective and then moves to screen them out.
Vehicles shuffle around.
Shooting kills 2 oblits and puts another 1W on Typhus.
He tries to shoot down Abaddon all by himself and with only 1W left....but Abaddon survives.
Mordrak finishes off the 2 zombies in assault.
Chaos 4
Spoiler:
My birdie comes in hot and kills the assback with its Vector Strike.
Zombies reach the objectives. Typhus joins the unit of fresh (3-man) oblits.
Abaddon goes after his Warlord.
Oblits wipe out Coteaz and his plasma henchmen with twin-linked plasmas.
Heldrake wipes out his 3-man henchmen unit on an objective with its baleflamer.
Abaddon shoots down the ghost knight with his combi-bolter. He then charges Mordrak.
Mordrak didn't stand a chance. I get the enemy Warlord.
We stop the game here.
Aftermath of the battle.
I get 3 objectives (4+3+2VP's), First Blood and Warlord. I don't believe my opponent has an objective currently, though he does get 1VP for killing my spawns.
pretre wrote: I think of LOS as an extra 2+ for my character most of the time.
I learned from that point on. And it's a good thing too. In my game #3, I rolled double 1's for 2 LOS. If they had been armor saves, my character would have taken 2 wounds and probably have died in that game.
It is killing me how poorly your opponent opted to play his Dreadknights in this one. There was no reason at all with a Torrent weapon to get in those ruins - get behind them.
Also, Shunt all 3 Dreadknights at once - that will burn out a huge chunk of the zombie unit which protects the Dreadknights from a charge with the Abaddon blob - and provides a huge counter assault threat to finish them off. Finally, Mordrak does not scatter, he should have been behind the Shunted Dreadknights turn 1 and then piled into a brutal combat Turn 2...
I've Been Expecting You does not work from inside a transport precisely because it requires LOS. And no rule grants permission to draw LOS outside of a transport except for shooting a weapon (or PSA/Witchfire) out of a fire point. Coteaz can't use IBEY from inside a transport, just as Trazyn can't use Mind in the Machine from inside a transport, because they're both special rules which require LOS.
You can and indeed must (with Chaos) have multiple challenges in successive rounds of the same combat, as long as the first has finished. You can't have more than one going on at once. To quote from a recent YMDC thread:
Mannahnin wrote: While the second paragraph of page 64 states that only one challenge can be issued per combat, the following paragraph says "Once one challenge has been made, no further challenges can be issued in that combat whilst the previous challenge is ongoing. (Emphasis mine).
Further, page 65 goes on to say that "Even though further challenges cannot be issued in combat until the existing challenge has been resolved, there is the possibility that another character in the fight might intercede in a Glorious Intervention." (Emphasis mine).
This leads me to conclude that you can only have one challenge taking place in a given combat at one time, but challenges may be issued in subsequent rounds as long as there's not one CURRENTLY ongoing.
So, answering the original questions:
When the Chaos terminator champion challenges, if the SM Sgt. refuses, "he cannot strike blows at all this turn", nor can his LD be used by the squad this round (page 64). The chaos unit and the rest of the SM unit fight as normal, and wounds can carry over to the cowardly Sgt. He just doesn't strike blows. If he survives the round, the Chaos champ can (and must, per the Champion of Chaos rule) issue another challenge in the next round of close combat.
calypso2ts wrote: It is killing me how poorly your opponent opted to play his Dreadknights in this one. There was no reason at all with a Torrent weapon to get in those ruins - get behind them.
Also, Shunt all 3 Dreadknights at once - that will burn out a huge chunk of the zombie unit which protects the Dreadknights from a charge with the Abaddon blob - and provides a huge counter assault threat to finish them off. Finally, Mordrak does not scatter, he should have been behind the Shunted Dreadknights turn 1 and then piled into a brutal combat Turn 2...
Good comments. I think he was overly cautious of my characters, especially of Abaddon. Only when Abaddon was tied down in combat did he begin to play his other knights aggressively. Teleporting behind the ruins instead of into them would have definitely been a better idea. It would have probably also saved his DK from the DT wound.
Thanks for the sweet reports! Not least because I'm working on a Typhus list, and because I keep wanting to field Abby.
Yeah, even though he unbalances the list, Abaddon is still DA MAN. Just had to find an excuse to fit him into my list. I just love the carnage he creates and how he affects my opponents psychologically.
I think a key to him being worthwhile is his Warlord trait. Preferred Enemy: Space Marines in a 12" radius is huge, allowing him and nearby Oblits (and even stuff like the Heldrake, or of course anything for that matter) to re-roll 1s to hit and wound against SM makes your stuff hit substantially harder.
Mannahnin wrote: I think a key to him being worthwhile is his Warlord trait. Preferred Enemy: Space Marines in a 12" radius is huge, allowing him and nearby Oblits (and even stuff like the Heldrake, or of course anything for that matter) to re-roll 1s to hit and wound against SM makes your stuff hit substantially harder.
I totally forgot about that in this game. Lol. Not that I really needed it. Whatever my guys touched, it died (due to poor saves).
well played by you Jy2, you captalized perfectly on your opponents mistakes, but he made to much mistakes, the knights need to sweep a flank, they should have chosen the other side of Abbadon and then flame the units of and get into hth with those oblits killing them asap, after that there would be no more threats to the tanks save the turkey...
Not that it would have mattered, but I believe the Dreadknight auto-passes dangerous terrain tests. I think all monstrous creatures have move through cover. Could be wrong though, I'll check later.
Great report and nice win!
calypso2ts wrote: It is killing me how poorly your opponent opted to play his Dreadknights in this one. There was no reason at all with a Torrent weapon to get in those ruins - get behind them.
Also, Shunt all 3 Dreadknights at once - that will burn out a huge chunk of the zombie unit which protects the Dreadknights from a charge with the Abaddon blob - and provides a huge counter assault threat to finish them off. Finally, Mordrak does not scatter, he should have been behind the Shunted Dreadknights turn 1 and then piled into a brutal combat Turn 2...
I agree, with torrent he should have shunted further away from tyhus and abby, he really should have tried killing those in assault?
Also with 3 heavy incinerators, would one of the 10 man zombie units been a great target for first blood?
He just played to your strengths jy, good bat rep though
Also I thiought flyers can only score objectives when they are hovering? So you helldrake would not be able to claim that one, not that it would have made a difference.
There is no stipulation on flyer speed for claiming objectives in the (rare) times they can score. However objectives must be within 3" of the hull for it to count 1 making many (almost all) objectives simply too far away to be claimed.
A side note - scouring/big guns makes certain vehicle scoring units but not denial units - so no contesting with fast or heavy vehicles in those missions.
Good game 1. Wiping out those three Dreadknights resulted in a quick turn around. It's amazing Abby survived throughout the game after initially taking 3 wounds.
I look forward to reading your 2nd game report. Keep up the good work!
Siphen wrote: Not that it would have mattered, but I believe the Dreadknight auto-passes dangerous terrain tests. I think all monstrous creatures have move through cover. Could be wrong though, I'll check later.
Great report and nice win!
Nice catch. As someone who plays a semi-nidzilla tyranid list, I should have caught that. I must've been too concerned about how to deal with them and Mordrak's unit to have remembered.
Valek wrote: well played by you Jy2, you captalized perfectly on your opponents mistakes, but he made to much mistakes, the knights need to sweep a flank, they should have chosen the other side of Abbadon and then flame the units of and get into hth with those oblits killing them asap, after that there would be no more threats to the tanks save the turkey...
He did sweep a flank and it was the right flank also (with a 3-pt objectives). He just should have done it with all 3 dreadknights and Mordrak. Then I probably would have been in trouble.
I agree, with torrent he should have shunted further away from tyhus and abby, he really should have tried killing those in assault?
Also with 3 heavy incinerators, would one of the 10 man zombie units been a great target for first blood?
He just played to your strengths jy, good bat rep though
Also I thiought flyers can only score objectives when they are hovering? So you helldrake would not be able to claim that one, not that it would have made a difference.
No, I don't think he should have gone for the 10-man units. I had them spread out and along my board edge to minimize the impact of those heavy incinerators (he would've been 12-13" away from due to my screening units). You focus all that firepower and what you are doing realistically is spending 780pts just to try to kill a 50pt unit!!! On top of that, you aren't even guaranteed to wipe them out and next turn, you are in my threat range. It would have been a bad play.
One thing that really helped me was that all the high-value objectives were on my side. That forced him to have to come towards me, making my job a lot easier.
tetrisphreak wrote: There is no stipulation on flyer speed for claiming objectives in the (rare) times they can score. However objectives must be within 3" of the hull for it to count 1 making many (almost all) objectives simply too far away to be claimed.
A side note - scouring/big guns makes certain vehicle scoring units but not denial units - so no contesting with fast or heavy vehicles in those missions.
Correct. One of the things about the heldrake model is that its wings (which are part of its hull) dip down low enough to actually claim many objectives on the ground level. That is kind of unfair compared to the other flyers in the game...but that's how the model was actually designed. Makes a good unit even that much better. Just like the exorcist when it comes to shooting and cover compared to other tanks..
SabrX wrote: Good game 1. Wiping out those three Dreadknights resulted in a quick turn around. It's amazing Abby survived throughout the game after initially taking 3 wounds.
I look forward to reading your 2nd game report. Keep up the good work!
Yeah, thank goodness for LOS. I did take a risk by breaking Abbadon away from his unit to assault Mordrak, but fortunately for me, he survived.
Can't wait for the rest of the games. I absolutely love your list. Did you ever think of cutting those Oblits down to Havocs to save points and maybe grab another Heldrake?
tetrisphreak wrote: There is no stipulation on flyer speed for claiming objectives in the (rare) times they can score. However objectives must be within 3" of the hull for it to count 1 making many (almost all) objectives simply too far away to be claimed.
A side note - scouring/big guns makes certain vehicle scoring units but not denial units - so no contesting with fast or heavy vehicles in those missions.
This.
Note that of course wings are hull, though, which makes it very easy for the wingtips of the Helldrake to be within 3" of the table surface in ordinary modeling positions. It's tougher for the Vendetta and Night Scythe, and much tougher for the Dakkajet, but those can easily be in range of objectives placed on hills, or on the second or third floor of a ruin.
Brymm wrote: Can't wait for the rest of the games. I absolutely love your list. Did you ever think of cutting those Oblits down to Havocs to save points and maybe grab another Heldrake?
I was actually thinking about dropping 1 oblit from each unit and several zombies to fit in a 2nd heldrake. I'm glad I didn't. Oblits ended up to be much more useful in the tournaments, especially in game #1 versus 3 dreadknights. I like the oblits much more than havocs for both their resiliency and their flexibility, but at lower points games, I'd probably drop 1 unit of oblits (and most likely Abaddon) for other cheaper units.
Very nicely done! I actually thought the game would be closer, seeing as the GK player had the firepower to deal with your Zombies. Otherwise, Abaddon, the Heldrake and Oblits cleaned up quite nicely.
The only thing I personally would have done differently is send the Spawn up to go munch on Razorbacks, since force weapons are a tall order for Spawn. Still, great battle, looking forward to the next one.
Lord of Nonsensical Crap wrote: Very nicely done! I actually thought the game would be closer, seeing as the GK player had the firepower to deal with your Zombies. Otherwise, Abaddon, the Heldrake and Oblits cleaned up quite nicely.
The only thing I personally would have done differently is send the Spawn up to go munch on Razorbacks, since force weapons are a tall order for Spawn. Still, great battle, looking forward to the next one.
His henchmen I felt that I could have dealt with with my dragon. However, what I didn't want was for Mordrak, who was also scoring, to be killing my scoring units and on top of a 3-pt objective! Moreover, he's the Warlord. I just had to tie him up until Abaddon could get there to finish him off.
Eldercaveman wrote: Awesome game, got to love the under dog army. Did you find many of your opponents under estimating this list?
Also I don't think the helldrake could have scored, doesn't it say vehicles count as long as they aren't immobilised?
Oooh! Good call:
Fast Recon: Unlike other missions, in The Scouring, your
fast attack units are scoring units, not just your troops units.
In fact,in The Scouring,even your vehicles are scoring units,
if they are also fast attack units and are not Immobilised!
Eldercaveman wrote: Awesome game, got to love the under dog army. Did you find many of your opponents under estimating this list?
Also I don't think the helldrake could have scored, doesn't it say vehicles count as long as they aren't immobilised?
Oooh! Good call:
Fast Recon: Unlike other missions, in The Scouring, your
fast attack units are scoring units, not just your troops units.
In fact,in The Scouring,even your vehicles are scoring units,
if they are also fast attack units and are not Immobilised!
Yeah i was certain that was the case for Big Guns, but couldn't remember the wording for Scouring, but figured it'd only make sense for it to be the same.
Cue debate on whether Locked Velocity is the same as being Immobilized...
That one went pretty much like I expected but with you taking a fair bit less damage due to his piece-meal attack strategy. I also probably would have saved the spawn for transport smashing after the DKs were occupied, Modrak kills spawn as easily as zombies (and he's got a pile of attacks), but your strategy worked out pretty well too haha.
What's the mission for the second game? I feel like he's got a pretty decent answer for most of what's in your list, but his scoring (and denial) units are weak and not very mobile.
I don't see the debate, it suffered an immobilised hit, but lets not derail Jy's thread with that, which is quite a small misread, as he would have won either way. Congrats again.
Eldercaveman wrote: Awesome game, got to love the under dog army. Did you find many of your opponents under estimating this list?
Also I don't think the helldrake could have scored, doesn't it say vehicles count as long as they aren't immobilised?
Good catch! Thanks. I was not aware of that.
I've gone back and edited my battle report to reflect this.
I apologize for some of the mistakes made in these games, but they happen, both with me and my opponents. Fortunately, the mistakes made didn't really have a huge effect in any of my games.
Bugs_N_Orks wrote: Cue debate on whether Locked Velocity is the same as being Immobilized...
That one went pretty much like I expected but with you taking a fair bit less damage due to his piece-meal attack strategy. I also probably would have saved the spawn for transport smashing after the DKs were occupied, Modrak kills spawn as easily as zombies (and he's got a pile of attacks), but your strategy worked out pretty well too haha.
What's the mission for the second game? I feel like he's got a pretty decent answer for most of what's in your list, but his scoring (and denial) units are weak and not very mobile.
Although I play RAW just like everyone else, I'm not a rules-lawyer. In this case, it was pretty obvious what the intent of the authors was, even though the wording could have easily been exploited. But that's not me. I'd rather give my opponent the benefit of the doubt unless I feel that he is trying to exploit the rules.
In any case, it's no biggie as it didn't have any effect on the game whatsoever.
I was aware of how big and bad Mordrak was. That was why I also charged with the zombies...to try to lock him up and force him to deal with the zombies. Unfortunately, my pile-in moves later on brought my spawn into base contact with him, but it was a sacrifice I was willing to make to lock him down. The way I look at it is this....if I had ignored him (Mordrak) with the spawns and sent them after the tanks instead, then he would have probably sent 1 dreadknight over to intercept them and a dreadknight with nemesis greatsword is much more deadly than Mordrak.
For the second game against Kingsley, we played Emperor's Will (yeesh!) with Hammer & Anvil deployment (double-yeesh!!).
Eldercaveman wrote: Awesome game, got to love the under dog army. Did you find many of your opponents under estimating this list?
Also I don't think the helldrake could have scored, doesn't it say vehicles count as long as they aren't immobilised?
Good catch! Thanks. I was not aware of that.
I've gone back and edited my battle report to reflect this.
I apologize for some of the mistakes made in these games, but they happen, both with me and my opponents. Fortunately, the mistakes made didn't really have a huge effect in any of my games.
Well you could consider that mistake as a balancing act, as it should have never been immobilised anyway because IBEY shouldn't have been used.
Although I play RAW just like everyone else, I'm not a rules-lawyer. In this case, it was pretty obvious what the intent of the authors was, even though the wording could have easily been exploited. But that's not me. I'd rather give my opponent the benefit of the doubt unless I feel that he is trying to exploit the rules.
In any case, it's no biggie as it didn't have any effect on the game whatsoever.
You will always get people who try to bend the rules or interpret them in a way that fits them best, rather than looking at things logically. Your way is the best way, and more gamers should play with that mentality.
For the second game against Kingsley, we played Emperor's Will (yeesh!) with Hammer & Anvil deployment (double-yeesh!!).
IDK, kingsly is a good player and that mission is greatly favoring him. Oblits and the duo are going to DS I'll assume, if he can get a decent drop and survive until his next turn he may get just get but without this strategy I see little hope ha ha. I will also assume Kingsly was prepared for this move.
Red Corsair wrote: IDK, kingsly is a good player and that mission is greatly favoring him. Oblits and the duo are going to DS I'll assume, if he can get a decent drop and survive until his next turn he may get just get but without this strategy I see little hope ha ha. I will also assume Kingsly was prepared for this move.
I would guess that he'd at least DS Abby and the Oblits. Two significant factors in how successful that will/would be are how well Kingsley blocked off/screened his objective (making DSing near it risky), and whether Abby successfully tanked a couple of railgun shots off his 4++.
I could see Typhus staying home to anchor the zombies and defend home base. Terrain should have been a big deal, too; if the zombies could get cover saves against all of Kingsley's S4-S6 shooting, they could hold out and hold onto their objective a lot longer.
Red Corsair wrote: IDK, kingsly is a good player and that mission is greatly favoring him. Oblits and the duo are going to DS I'll assume, if he can get a decent drop and survive until his next turn he may get just get but without this strategy I see little hope ha ha. I will also assume Kingsly was prepared for this move.
I would guess that he'd at least DS Abby and the Oblits. Two significant factors in how successful that will/would be are how well Kingsley blocked off/screened his objective (making DSing near it risky), and whether Abby successfully tanked a couple of railgun shots off his 4++.
I could see Typhus staying home to anchor the zombies and defend home base. Terrain should have been a big deal, too; if the zombies could get cover saves against all of Kingsley's S4-S6 shooting, they could hold out and hold onto their objective a lot longer.
That was my thinking, but honestly after seeing Kingslys list I imagine most of his offense will come from the storm talons and possible a tac squad, I think typhus may not be needed back home given just how many zombies are there but also because he really doesn't help them there against the marine tau units which are not geared for assault at all and he can't touch the fliers. I agree that it would be more conservative and he probably will leave Typhus back but given the flavor of his list I think I would send both characters into the thick of things. I am aggressive though and would be banking on such a maneuver to force his hand and keep the major conflict on his objective not mine. I mean Typhus really does nothing for the zombies in this match, yet he can split off from the oblits making the 2 DS units into possibly 4 with abby. Either way I figure reserve rolls will be the major factor as well.
PRE-GAME THOUGHTS: Yeesh! Emperor's Will and Hammer and Anvil - probably the 2 worst mission/deployment combo that I can get. I lack both the mobility to get to my opponent's objective as well as the shooting to do any significant damage to his army. On the other hand, my opponent also lacks the mobility to get to my objective nor the resiliency to contest it. He also lacks the shooting to really do any significant damage to my army as well....with the exception of broadsides and vindicators against my oblits. Overall, this is not a good mission for me and my army is a terrible matchup for my opponent. Because in the Emperor's Will, I do not need to advance my zombies towards his objective and he does not have the firepower to shoot that many zombies off of mine. It will come down to my deepstriking obliterators (most likely with Abaddon), chaos spawns and helturkey to make a play for his objective. How well I do will depend on how well he can defend his objective.
The key to a victory here IMO is whoever gets First Blood will most likely be the victor. I can't stress enough how important First Blood is in this mission (and the Relic). In that regards, I may have a slight advantage. His rhinos and vehicles are much, much easier to kill than any of my units. If I can get First Blood, then I will almost guarantee myself the victory.
No worries re: Abaddon, man-- it was a great game anyway! Perhaps we'll play again some other time and hash that out.
Pre-Game Thoughts:
This is a terrible mission and deployment combination for both armies! I will not be able to take jy2's objective thanks to his large number of zombies just standing; he will not be able to meaningfully attack my objective with his zombies either thanks to Slow and Purposeful and his large number of shooting units.
I suspect this game will come down to First Blood. Unfortunately, I have Rhinos and jy2 doesn't. Hopefully I will be able go second and deploy reactively to hide my Rhinos and attack jy2's Obliterators. They are both the most dangerous unit for claiming First Blood and the most vulnerable units to my Broadside Battlesuits. Also, going second will let me potentially shoot the Whirlwind into his Zombies on the objective and then teleport my Librarian into the hole created to contest-- a risky but potentially game-winning move.
If I concede First Blood, I will need to attack extremely aggressively and attempt to throw all my infantry into jy2's zone to take Linebreaker or potentially contest the objective. This will be a low chance to win, but I will have to go for it. Hopefully, First Blood will be on my side and jy2 will be the one having to make a risky attack... but I think jy2 has better odds of doing this than I do. We'll see how it plays out...
His librarian keeps his original powers (Gate of Infinity and Null Zone). For his Warlord trait, he gets a scoring Warlord.
He puts his broadsides in the bastion and his objective right behind it. Storm Talons in reserves.
My deployment. All my zombies start off on the board and spread out. Typhus joins one of the large block of zombies.
Reserves include Abaddon with 1 unit of oblits (to be deepstriking in) and the heldrake.
Here I make a mistake and nominate Typhus as my Warlord. It wasn't until after the tournament that I find out that Abaddon has to be the Warlord. So to my opponent, I apologize for my mistake.
Marines advance. My opponent combat squads his tacticals and some (lascannons) disembark.
In shooting, my opponent is able to shoot down 2 spawns and a total of 6 zombies from 2 different units. I think I surprised him with the resiliency of my zombies, especially with their FNP saves.
Chaos 1
Spoiler:
In what would be a major mistake on my part, I advance my chaos spawn. Apparently, either I didn't respect my opponent's shooting enough or I was just too confident in my oblits getting First Blood.
In any case, my oblits fire at his rhino and he makes both cover saves against my shots.
Space Marines/Tau 2
Spoiler:
Overview of the top of Turn 2.
1 storm talon comes in. Left fire warriors advance in order to get into double-tap rapid-fire range of my spawns.
The rest of his army moves.
He then focuses the shooting of his entire army into my chaos spawns and wipes them out! Oh crap....I just gave my opponent First Blood. Yup, handed it to him gift-wrapped and on a silver platter. And maybe the game as well....
Chaos 2
Spoiler:
My helturkey comes in. Abaddon and oblits, however, don't. The rest of my guys shuffle around.
My evil birdy incinerates 8 fire warriors. I believe they then fail morale and fall back.
My oblits fail to do any damage with their shooting.
Space Marines/Tau 3
Spoiler:
Overview of the top of Turn 3. His other talon doesn't come in yet.
Storm talon flies past my heldrake to get shots into its rear.
Marines make their move. This is when he starts scrambling his marines back towards his objective.
His librarian casts Null Zone.
Shooting (by a vindicator) only manages to kill 1 oblit.
His talon fires at my heldrake and I opt to evade (due to Null Zone). 1 shot goes through - either a stun or shaken - which I ignore.
Finally, he kills some more zombies (I did not mention it, but every turn he would fire at and kill some zombies, though not a whole lot).
Chaos 3
Spoiler:
Abaddon and oblits come in. However, I do a really risky deepstrike near his objective. I basically need a direct hit or I will be in trouble. They then scatter and mishap, but fortunately, they only go back into reserves.
Heldrake vector strikes a vindicator but does nothing. It then flies off the board with its flat-out move because it could not shoot this turn (due to evading last turn).
My army shambles on. Oblits go after his storm talon.
I only manage to cause 1 HP of damage with twin-linked plasmas.
Space Marines/Tau 4
Spoiler:
Overview of the top of Turn 4.
His guys make a mad dash back to protect his objective....and they do a good job.
They then run to make my life even harder!
Shooting doesn't do much other than to kill some more zombies....but that doesn't really matter. The only thing that matters is to protect his objective.
Chaos 4
Spoiler:
This time, Abaddon lands true.
Helturkey also comes in.
More non-important movement from my shambling horde. Oblits decide to f-up his vindicator. They do nothing to it.
Oblits fire twin-linked plasmas into the rear and blow up the whirlwind.
Dragon flames and kills 4 fire warriors.
Space Marines/Tau 5
Spoiler:
Overview of the top of Turn 5.
His talon moves to get a rear shot on my helturkey.
All his guys make a mad dash to protect his objective. He screens out Abaddon with 2 combat squads. Both units of fire warriors go back to help. Storm talon goes into its special Hover mode (making it BS5).
Fortunately for me, his vindicator has no shot really (it can only barely see 1 oblit so that will be all that it can kill).
Librarian casts Null Zone.
His talon fires at my turkey. I take a gamble and choose not to Evade because I will need its offense to clear some of those screening marines. He then blows it away.
Kingsley runs both combat squads and the 4-man fire warrior squad to screen me out.
Whatever guns can fire do. I absorb everything. Abaddon makes his invuln's and the re-rolls due to Null Zone against his broadsides. In the end, he only manages to cause 1W to an oblit (passed on from Abaddon with Look-Out-Sirs!).
And kill an oblit.
Chaos 5
Spoiler:
Abaddon splits off from the oblits.
My "other" movement...not that it really matters.
However, for a moral victory, I shoot down that annoying little storm talon.
In shooting, I kill a total of 5 marines with heavy flamers from the oblits.
My opponent, the sneaky git that he is, then auto-fails his morale and both combat squads run off the board, thus denying me the opportunity to get closer to his objective with an assault and consolidation! Noooooooo........
We roll to see if the game continues and.....
Space Marines/Tau 6
Spoiler:
Fortunately for me, there will be at least 1 more turn.
Shas'el goes to block off Abaddon. His fire warriors go to screen out the oblits. Talon remains in Hover mode.
Everything focuses on the oblits because they are the closer unit to the objective. He only manages to do 1W to them.
His vindicator finally manages to kill my other obliterator unit, not that it really matters. Perhaps as a moral victory for him.
Chaos 6
Spoiler:
I go straight into assault. I don't bother to shoot with my oblits.
I annihilate both the fire warriors and his shas'el. Oblits consolidate 6" to contest!!!
Now my opponent needs the game to continue for 1 more turn in order to pull out a miracle. Otherwise, I've got this game in the bag.
We roll to see if the game continues and.....
Space Marines/Tau 7
Spoiler:
Game on!
My opponent makes a last ditch effort to kill my oblits and stop Abaddon. He has a slim chance. He needs to do this turn what he has been unsuccessfully trying to do the last 2 turns - wipe out my oblits! Then he has to stop Abaddon from advancing, assaulting and then consolidating onto his objective.
A tall order indeed, however, he's got an Ace-in-the-hole....his vindicator now has a shot against my oblits!
It will take a total team effort.
I actually give Kingsley a great tip. I told him his tacticals were too close to my oblits and that he wouldn't have been able to fire his vindicator because of that. Because of that, he backs up his tacticals to allow him to place the blast marker on the oblits.
And the result is 3 dead oblits. Though it would take practically his entire army to do so.
Tacticals then run forwards to block off Abaddon.
Chaos 7
Spoiler:
Ok, I can still take this. I've got options. Either go around his tacticals and then run or assault them and then consolidate.
I only manage to move 3" through difficult terrain. Now I need to run at least 5" or 6" to contest. I don't like those odds.
So instead, I assault his marines in the hopes of wiping them out and then consolidating towards his objective (because the assault move gave me about 2" of free movement).
What I failed to realize was that he still had a sergeant in that unit! Thus I was forced to challenge him. So I crush his little man and now he is testing on LD7 for morale. I need for them to fail and for me not to catch them and then I've got this game.
Fortunately for my opponent, they pass morale and Abaddon is stuck in combat and a couple of inches away from contesting. I should have just ran.
So after the match, we shake hands and talk about what a great game it was. I then tell Kingsley: "That was a great game, unfortunately, it was a tie."
He then looks at me dumb-founded. After all his work in preventing me from contesting his objective, he thinks he's got the game won due to First Blood.
I then answer his surprised stare with this: "You forgot about Linebreaker."
Space Marines-Tau: (by Kingsley)
Stormtalons can only use their special Hover Strike, they cannot do a normal Hover Mode move-- otherwise my second Stormtalon certainly would have come into play as another blocking unit.
There were two things preventing me teleporting my Librarian-- first, I was going second. With only one wound on the Librarian (he took a wound from Perils on turn 5 and didn't cast afterwards for risk of killing himself), he would have a 1/18 chance of dying instantly from Perils and giving jy2 Warlord. Further, jy2's zombies would have a reasonable chance of killing the Librarian on the bottom of the turn. Second, I thought I was about to win the game so didn't think it was necessary!
To be honest, I was fixated enough on First Blood (as seen in both players' pregame thoughts) that I had forgotten about Linebreaker completely! I'm not sure if I could have killed Abaddon, however. It may be that simply blocking was the correct move regardless under the circumstances-- doing another 4 wounds through t5 2+/4++ EW would have been quite difficult, and would have given up positional defense that I was able to achieve via Run moves.
My main hope to achieve Linebreaker would have been to put 5 Tactical Marines into a Rhino and just move + flat out, then tank shock through the zombies and disembark. It turned out, however, that every Tactical Marine was necessary for blocking purposes-- in the end I sacrificed all 4 Tactical Marine units, one of the FIre Warrior Squads, and the Command Suit in order to block jy2 from contesting. Even still, it was a close thing-- had I not killed the Oblits on turn 7 I would have lost the match.
So ultimately I'm not sure if knowing about Linebreaker would have helped all that much. Similarly, if Abaddon were the Warlord I don't think the game would have changed a ton either (though perhaps jy2 would be less willing to attack aggressively with him)-- I would still have had to focus most of my attacks on the Oblits to get them off the objective on turn 7. I would likely have concentrated more on him in turn 6, but it's not like I was able to do huge damage that turn anyway...
Overall, this was one of my favorite games of 40k, ever! Both times I have played jy2 (this game and this one), we have had remarkably close and fun games. I am looking forward to the next time jy2 and I meet up on the battlefield!
Chaos: (by Jy2)
After my opponent got First Blood, I thought I was going to lose this game. But when I deepstruck Abaddon into his deployment zone, I realized that this was his game to lose, not mine. That was because I will get Linebreaker unless he can wipe me out. And with the terrain in the backfield, I knew I could use it to deny some of his shooting and thusly increase the survivability of my unit (i.e. his vindicator didn't have LOS to my unit for the most part). Kingsley was so focused on trying to stop my mini-deathstar that I knew he wasn't thinking about Linebreaker. And then I mishapped! I was very fortunate not to roll a 1-3 on the mishap table, because that would have cost me the game if I did.
Abaddon and the oblits were definitely my MVP's in this game. They withstood the offense of practically my opponent's entire army for 3 turns!!! I can't believe the punishment they survived, but I must give credit to my hot saves. Even Null Zone couldn't put a damper on Abaddon's saves. If not for them, I surely would have lost.
However, I did make a couple of errors that probably cost me the win. First was when I advanced my chaos spawns. I should have held them back until I got First Blood. The second was assaulting with Abaddon on Turn 7. Looking back now at the photos, I think I was actually closer than I had thought (maybe only 3-4" away instead of the 5-6" that I thought). I could have pre-measured the distance but didn't. I should have ran. I also didn't take into account that he had a sargeant in his combat squad. Had I realized that, I definitely would have ran Abaddon instead. Of course it is no guarantee that running would get me to within contesting range, but I think the chances of me winning that way would have been greater.
Overall, it was a great game. These nail-biter, down-to-the-wire types of games are always the funnest.....nerve-wracking, but extremely fun.
Must have been getting a bit tense/time-constrained at the end there - your opponent passed up some better movement options on turn 6 (the Storm Talon should have screened off the Oblits, and the Vindie should have driven up on to the hill; even that Rhino could have gotten involved).
Janthkin wrote: Must have been getting a bit tense/time-constrained at the end there - your opponent passed up some better movement options on turn 6 (the Storm Talon should have screened off the Oblits, and the Vindie should have driven up on to the hill; even that Rhino could have gotten involved).
I'm not sure if the talon can move like that. They have special hover rule which may be different from the normal Hover moves, but maybe someone who actually has the rules for the Storm talon can add some clarity to this.
And by his vindicator not moving, it turned out great for my opponent as he would get a clear shot on my oblits on T7.
Janthkin wrote: Must have been getting a bit tense/time-constrained at the end there - your opponent passed up some better movement options on turn 6 (the Storm Talon should have screened off the Oblits, and the Vindie should have driven up on to the hill; even that Rhino could have gotten involved).
I'm not sure if the talon can move like that. They have special hover rule which may be different from the normal Hover moves, but maybe someone who actually has the rules for the Storm talon can add some clarity to this.
I think what Janthkin meant was using the Storm Talon's flying base to prevent Oblits from reaching the objective.
Janthkin wrote: Must have been getting a bit tense/time-constrained at the end there - your opponent passed up some better movement options on turn 6 (the Storm Talon should have screened off the Oblits, and the Vindie should have driven up on to the hill; even that Rhino could have gotten involved).
I'm not sure if the talon can move like that. They have special hover rule which may be different from the normal Hover moves, but maybe someone who actually has the rules for the Storm talon can add some clarity to this.
I think what Janthkin meant was using the Storm Talon's flying base to prevent Oblits from reaching the objective.
And I think Jim meant that he's not sure it HAS a real "hover" mode that lets it move like a Fast Skimmer. I don't know how that one works out.
Abaddon is a beast, particularly since power weapons are usually only AP 3 now. Massed gunfire seems like the best option, once you can separate him from a squad full of secondary targets, but that wasn't an option here. Well-played on Kingsley's part to secure the draw; too bad he couldn't have Gated his Librarian to your deployment zone to try for the win.
Janthkin wrote: Must have been getting a bit tense/time-constrained at the end there - your opponent passed up some better movement options on turn 6 (the Storm Talon should have screened off the Oblits, and the Vindie should have driven up on to the hill; even that Rhino could have gotten involved).
I'm not sure if the talon can move like that. They have special hover rule which may be different from the normal Hover moves, but maybe someone who actually has the rules for the Storm talon can add some clarity to this.
I think what Janthkin meant was using the Storm Talon's flying base to prevent Oblits from reaching the objective.
Yeah, and in order to do that, it would have to go into Hover mode to get there. Now I know they have a special Hover mode where they can just pivot and fire at BS5. My question is, do they also have a normal Hover mode? I don't have the rules for them.
Abaddon is a beast, particularly since power weapons are usually only AP 3 now. Massed gunfire seems like the best option, once you can separate him from a squad full of secondary targets, but that wasn't an option here. Well-played on Kingsley's part to secure the draw; too bad he couldn't have Gated his Librarian to your deployment zone to try for the win.
He probably would have had he remembered about Linebreaker. Then again, he would be risking his Warlord in order to do so and I had the bottom of the turn.
My guess is that he thought he had the game won if he could stop Abaddon and oblits. If not, then I would contest and Linebreaker wouldn't have meant anything.
He could ave switched back to flight mode and gone 18" space permitting to block you then switch to hove again on turn 7.
I was waiting for the libby to gate turn 5 on to get line breaker himself if he could evade the zombies one turn. Great game, I still think DS the other oblits and typhus would have really sent him reeling though ha ha
Got to love abby, he is so darn terrifying. Makes me want to bring him from now on just on principle. The psychological factor is worth at least 50pts IMO
I thought after he killed the last Oblit with the Vindicator midfield, he would flat out the other Vindy into your deployment zone and get Linebreaker for himself.
DarthDiggler wrote: I thought after he killed the last Oblit with the Vindicator midfield, he would flat out the other Vindy into your deployment zone and get Linebreaker for himself.
Linebreaker only counts for scoring or denial units. Vehicles don't score or deny.
Stormtalons can only use their special Hover Strike, they cannot do a normal Hover Mode move-- otherwise my second Stormtalon certainly would have come into play as another blocking unit.
There were two things preventing me teleporting my Librarian-- first, I was going second. With only one wound on the Librarian (he took a wound from Perils on turn 5 and didn't cast afterwards for risk of killing himself), he would have a 1/18 chance of dying instantly from Perils and giving jy2 Warlord. Further, jy2's zombies would have a reasonable chance of killing the Librarian on the bottom of the turn. Second, I thought I was about to win the game so didn't think it was necessary!
To be honest, I was fixated enough on First Blood (as seen in both players' pregame thoughts) that I had forgotten about Linebreaker completely! I'm not sure if I could have killed Abaddon, however. It may be that simply blocking was the correct move regardless under the circumstances-- doing another 4 wounds through t5 2+/4++ EW would have been quite difficult, and would have given up positional defense that I was able to achieve via Run moves.
My main hope to achieve Linebreaker would have been to put 5 Tactical Marines into a Rhino and just move + flat out, then tank shock through the zombies and disembark. It turned out, however, that every Tactical Marine was necessary for blocking purposes-- in the end I sacrificed all 4 Tactical Marine units, one of the FIre Warrior Squads, and the Command Suit in order to block jy2 from contesting. Even still, it was a close thing-- had I not killed the Oblits on turn 7 I would have lost the match.
So ultimately I'm not sure if knowing about Linebreaker would have helped all that much. Similarly, if Abaddon were the Warlord I don't think the game would have changed a ton either (though perhaps jy2 would be less willing to attack aggressively with him)-- I would still have had to focus most of my attacks on the Oblits to get them off the objective on turn 7. I would likely have concentrated more on him in turn 6, but it's not like I was able to do huge damage that turn anyway...
Overall, this was one of my favorite games of 40k, ever! Both times I have played jy2 (this game and this one), we have had remarkably close and fun games. I am looking forward to the next time jy2 and I meet up on the battlefield!
Kingsley wrote: Stormtalons can only use their special Hover Strike, they cannot do a normal Hover Mode move-- otherwise my second Stormtalon certainly would have come into play as another blocking unit.
That was the missing piece; thanks for clarifying. Silly Space Marines.
Haha I like the ace in the hole call, that was such a tight alley of fire for that vindy. If you have a special character who is challenged, can he allocate say 2 attacks to his challenger then all the rest of his attacks to the squad?
sumi808 wrote: Haha I like the ace in the hole call, that was such a tight alley of fire for that vindy. If you have a special character who is challenged, can he allocate say 2 attacks to his challenger then all the rest of his attacks to the squad?
Red Corsair wrote: He could ave switched back to flight mode and gone 18" space permitting to block you then switch to hove again on turn 7.
I was waiting for the libby to gate turn 5 on to get line breaker himself if he could evade the zombies one turn. Great game, I still think DS the other oblits and typhus would have really sent him reeling though ha ha
Got to love abby, he is so darn terrifying. Makes me want to bring him from now on just on principle. The psychological factor is worth at least 50pts IMO
He didn't have the distance to zoom even 18". He would have overshot it.
I couldn't have deepstruck both oblits and HQ's. Then he could've just rammed his rhinos right down my throat. Zombies can't hurt those transports. No, I needed someone home to defend my objective.
SabrX wrote: Seems like Abby technically being an Ally didn't effect the outcome of this match. He's really hard to kill!
Forgetting Linebreaker was a big mistake. Well played Jy2. It's really hard to get a draw in 6th ed.
Yeah, I helped him with his vindicator firing at my oblits with his space marines in the way....but I couldn't tell him about Linebreaker. That might have really cost me the game.
sumi808 wrote: Haha I like the ace in the hole call, that was such a tight alley of fire for that vindy. If you have a special character who is challenged, can he allocate say 2 attacks to his challenger then all the rest of his attacks to the squad?
No he can't. If your character is in a challenge, all his attacks must be allocated to the challenger and any excess wounds do not carry over to the rest of the squad. Thus, it is a good strategy to challenge a uber-powerful, ultra-killy character with a much weaker character like a sargeant. This way you limit his killing potential to just 1 guy even though he may have 10 attacks or so.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Thanks Kingsley. I will add this to my post game.
POST-GAME ANALYSIS:
Space Marines-Tau: (by Kingsley)
Stormtalons can only use their special Hover Strike, they cannot do a normal Hover Mode move-- otherwise my second Stormtalon certainly would have come into play as another blocking unit.
There were two things preventing me teleporting my Librarian-- first, I was going second. With only one wound on the Librarian (he took a wound from Perils on turn 5 and didn't cast afterwards for risk of killing himself), he would have a 1/18 chance of dying instantly from Perils and giving jy2 Warlord. Further, jy2's zombies would have a reasonable chance of killing the Librarian on the bottom of the turn. Second, I thought I was about to win the game so didn't think it was necessary!
To be honest, I was fixated enough on First Blood (as seen in both players' pregame thoughts) that I had forgotten about Linebreaker completely! I'm not sure if I could have killed Abaddon, however. It may be that simply blocking was the correct move regardless under the circumstances-- doing another 4 wounds through t5 2+/4++ EW would have been quite difficult, and would have given up positional defense that I was able to achieve via Run moves.
My main hope to achieve Linebreaker would have been to put 5 Tactical Marines into a Rhino and just move + flat out, then tank shock through the zombies and disembark. It turned out, however, that every Tactical Marine was necessary for blocking purposes-- in the end I sacrificed all 4 Tactical Marine units, one of the FIre Warrior Squads, and the Command Suit in order to block jy2 from contesting. Even still, it was a close thing-- had I not killed the Oblits on turn 7 I would have lost the match.
So ultimately I'm not sure if knowing about Linebreaker would have helped all that much. Similarly, if Abaddon were the Warlord I don't think the game would have changed a ton either (though perhaps jy2 would be less willing to attack aggressively with him)-- I would still have had to focus most of my attacks on the Oblits to get them off the objective on turn 7. I would likely have concentrated more on him in turn 6, but it's not like I was able to do huge damage that turn anyway...
Overall, this was one of my favorite games of 40k, ever! Both times I have played jy2 (this game and this one), we have had remarkably close and fun games. I am looking forward to the next time jy2 and I meet up on the battlefield!
Chaos: (by Jy2)
After my opponent got First Blood, I thought I was going to lose this game. But when I deepstruck Abaddon into his deployment zone, I realized that this was his game to lose, not mine. That was because I will get Linebreaker unless he can wipe me out. And with the terrain in the backfield, I knew I could use it to deny some of his shooting and thusly increase the survivability of my unit (i.e. his vindicator didn't have LOS to my unit for the most part). Kingsley was so focused on trying to stop my mini-deathstar that I knew he wasn't thinking about Linebreaker. And then I mishapped! I was very fortunate not to roll a 1-3 on the mishap table, because that would have cost me the game if I did.
Abaddon and the oblits were definitely my MVP's in this game. They withstood the offense of practically my opponent's entire army for 3 turns!!! I can't believe the punishment they survived, but I must give credit to my hot saves. Even Null Zone couldn't put a damper on Abaddon's saves. If not for them, I surely would have lost.
However, I did make a couple of errors that probably cost me the win. First was when I advanced my chaos spawns. I should have held them back until I got First Blood. The second was assaulting with Abaddon on Turn 7. Looking back now at the photos, I think I was actually closer than I had thought (maybe only 3-4" away instead of the 5-6" that I thought). I could have pre-measured the distance but didn't. I should have ran. I also didn't take into account that he had a sargeant in his combat squad. Had I realized that, I definitely would have ran Abaddon instead. Of course it is no guarantee that running would get me to within contesting range, but I think the chances of me winning that way would have been greater.
Overall, it was a great game. These nail-biter, down-to-the-wire types of games are always the funnest.....nerve-wracking, but extremely fun.
Kingsley wrote: Stormtalons can only use their special Hover Strike, they cannot do a normal Hover Mode move-- otherwise my second Stormtalon certainly would have come into play as another blocking unit.
There were two things preventing me teleporting my Librarian-- first, I was going second. With only one wound on the Librarian (he took a wound from Perils on turn 5 and didn't cast afterwards for risk of killing himself), he would have a 1/18 chance of dying instantly from Perils and giving jy2 Warlord. Further, jy2's zombies would have a reasonable chance of killing the Librarian on the bottom of the turn. Second, I thought I was about to win the game so didn't think it was necessary!
To be honest, I was fixated enough on First Blood (as seen in both players' pregame thoughts) that I had forgotten about Linebreaker completely! I'm not sure if I could have killed Abaddon, however. It may be that simply blocking was the correct move regardless under the circumstances-- doing another 4 wounds through t5 2+/4++ EW would have been quite difficult, and would have given up positional defense that I was able to achieve via Run moves.
My main hope to achieve Linebreaker would have been to put 5 Tactical Marines into a Rhino and just move + flat out, then tank shock through the zombies and disembark. It turned out, however, that every Tactical Marine was necessary for blocking purposes-- in the end I sacrificed all 4 Tactical Marine units, one of the FIre Warrior Squads, and the Command Suit in order to block jy2 from contesting. Even still, it was a close thing-- had I not killed the Oblits on turn 7 I would have lost the match.
So ultimately I'm not sure if knowing about Linebreaker would have helped all that much. Similarly, if Abaddon were the Warlord I don't think the game would have changed a ton either (though perhaps jy2 would be less willing to attack aggressively with him)-- I would still have had to focus most of my attacks on the Oblits to get them off the objective on turn 7. I would likely have concentrated more on him in turn 6, but it's not like I was able to do huge damage that turn anyway...
Overall, this was one of my favorite games of 40k, ever! Both times I have played jy2 (this game and this one), we have had remarkably close and fun games. I am looking forward to the next time jy2 and I meet up on the battlefield!
kudos to you . this is the attitude you want from your opponent. Eager to avenge the losses, and enjoying their games!
PRE-GAME THOUGHTS: If it were any other mission, I'd be concerned but we are playing Victory Points. That is one of my army's strongest missions as it is low in VP's and each VP for my opponent will be hard to get. My opponent, on the other hand, has some easy VP's for me to get - rhinos and razorbacks (oblits will kill them easily) and smaller infantry units like command squads, platoon command squads and long fangs (easy pickings for the heldrake). My army do not care about his lascannons and missile launchers, only his flashlights and grey hunter attacks. Yes, it takes volume-of-attacks to beat my army and my opponent has plenty of that. However, for them to truly be effective, his grey hunters are going to have to come towards me and right into the arms of Abaddon and/or Typhus and that, I have no problem with.
One of my main concerns, however, is Jaws. Nurgle just hate Jaws. Because of Jaws, I won't be able to go full-on aggressive against my opponent. But that's fine, I plan to play the River-in-Egypt game anyways. Why do I need to go to him when I can force him to come to me? Because I will have the early lead in VP's and he will be the one who would have to play catch-up.
My main advantage will probably be my experience. From what my opponent, Phil, has told me, he's just getting back into the game and hasn't played a whole lot of games so far. Well, for someone who just got back into the game, he sure writes a damn good list. In the hands of someone like me, I feel that this list could really do some damage. It is a lot like my SW list, only with more bodies and 1 flyer from his IG allies. He actually played Janthkin's Slaanesh Chaos last turn and was thoroughly beating him, and I mean almost tabling Kevin....but Kevin came back with a miracle win when he vector-striked one of Phil's scoring units (long fangs in Big Guns Never Tire) on an objective and they fell back and off the table.
In any case, I think I will have the advantage in this game.
Chaos deployment. I leave all 3 of my 10-man zombie units in reserves along with the heldrake.
My opponent's deployment. As I expected, he put 2 units of long fangs in the ruins. That means on Turn 1, they will be out of range to fire on some of my units (other than the zombies).
My opponent blobs up his guardsmen and put his Rune Priest (his Warlord) there.
Already I can tell the experience level of my opponent. His guys are deployed way too far to really do anything to my guys and his transports are unprotected. He's going to be in for a rude awakening how shooting at my zombies with 3+/4+ cover and FNP will be.
The space wolves try to steal the initiative but fail.
Shooting fails to kill either rhinos, though I do manage to take off the stormbolters and 2 HP's from each of them.
Space Wolves 1
Spoiler:
Space wolves advance.
Due to night-fight and the deployment of his long fangs, I only end up losing 4 zombies to his shooting.
If only my opponent remembered to use the searchlights from his vehicles. Then again, without his stormbolters which I shot off, can he still use them? Will probably have to look that one up.
Chaos 2
Spoiler:
Overview of the top of Turn 2.
Only 1 unit of zombies come in onto the very corner of my deployment zone, where they will be forgotten the entire game. In later turns, so will be other zombies so I won't mention them again.
Heldrake, however, doesn't come in.
Chaos advance. The chaos spawns should be in striking range this turn.
1 unit of oblits fire plasma cannons at his right rhino, wrecking it and also killing 2 grey hunters from the closest unit. His grey hunters spill out of their wrecked ride and get pinned.
I also get First Blood .
Chaos: 1, SW/IG: 0
Oblits also wreck the other rhino as well.
Chaos: 2, SW/IG: 0
Due to the rhino getting wrecked, spawns no longer have a target for assault anymore and opt to run into the forest for cover.
Space Wolves 2
Spoiler:
The vendetta comes in. Space wolves begin to move forwards.
His vendetta kills 1 oblit. They then fail morale and fall back!
The rest of his army - grey hunters, all the long fangs and a FRF!SRF! blob squad - then focus on my spawns and kill all but 1.
Chaos 3
Spoiler:
Oblits continue to fall back. Heldrake still does not come in.
Abaddon joins the oblits.
My chaos spawn runs away. He is now out of range of the long fangs but not of the grey hunters.
Notice anything missing?
That's right....his vendetta, which my oblits shoot down with TL-meltaguns.
Chaos: 3, SW/IG: 0
Space Wolves 3
Spoiler:
Space wolves continue to advance.
His hunters try to shoot down my spawn but fails miserably. I will get away.
He then focuses his entire army - that's the FRF!SRF! blob, all his long fangs and all his grey hunters (with plasmas) - at Abaddon's unit. I make a ton of saves and when the dust clears, I'm only down 1 oblit and Abaddon takes 1W.
Chaos 4
Spoiler:
Overview of the top of Turn 4.
Helturkey comes in.
Oblits regroup. The rest of my army goes after his grey hunters.
Helturkey wastes the long fangs.
Chaos: 4, SW/IG: 0
Oblits shoot down 2 grey hunters in terrain. They would later fail their charge.
1 unit of zombies, however, makes it into combat.
They actually kill 1 hunter while losing 3 zombies.
Just to be a sporting, I give my opponent a taste of combat against my spawn. He survives, killing 1 grey hunter and losing 2W.
Space Wolves 4
Spoiler:
Space wolves shuffle around. At this point, there isn't a whole lot he can do.
His blob squad and plasma hunters fire at my oblits, taking out another oblit.
At this point, we stop, partially due to time and partially due to the fact that I will only widen the VP gap between us if we play on. I have a heldrake ready to flame another unit of long fangs, oblits who will shoot at his razorback and Abaddon and oblits about to split off and perhaps charge 2 separate units.
That was a fun and great tournament. Everyone I played against was really cool. It was also a challenging one, especially my game #2 against Kingsley, which I would have to give the Match of the Tournament to. I ended up tied with Kingsley for 2nd place with 2-0-1 each. There were 2 players to go 3-0: Janthkin's Slaaneshi Chaos Marines with Daemon allies and the Space Marine/Imperial Guards player who got thumped by my Game #1 opponent just 2 days before. Both of them were losing badly in one of their games (Janthkin to my Game #3 opponent and the SM/IG player to a tyranid army very similar to Janthkin's) but both was saved by a little luck. Congrats.
Going into the tournament, I knew that my Double-Trouble list wasn't balanced and would probably have a tough time against certain armies and in certain matchups (like Emperor's Will with Hammer & Anvil deployment). Honestly, the lack of mobility in my list, as well as the lack of shooting, really hurts it. Its resilience helps it somewhat, but in a multiple objectives-based mission, this list will always have trouble. I think my generalship got me through the games, but if I were to go up against perhaps more seasoned players, I don't know if this army will have what it takes to pull off the win. Then again, like I said before, my goal in this tournament wasn't really to win it. Rather, I just wanted to have fun and see how my chaos can compete with some of the more competitive armies - the "big boys". In that regards, I've certainly achieved my goal and had a lot of fun.
As far as how my units did, I would probably give the MVP of the tournament to my obliterators. It was their shooting that knocked down 2 dreadknights, Coteaz and his unit and 1 vehicle in Game #1. In game #2, they killed 1 storm talon and 1 whirlwind but more importantly, they withstood and absorbed 3 turns of firing from practically my opponents entire army. In game #3, they were responsible for 3 of the 4 kill points - 2 rhinos and the vendetta. Their flexibility and resiliency was utterly amazing in my games, especially when you put Abaddon in there to soak up some of the Insta-killing wounds. I would say that the Runner-up would have to be Abaddon. He was a beast in Game #1, killing a dreadknight and Mordrak. In Game #2, he soaked up a huge amount of firepower, killed the shas'el and several combat squads and gave me Linebreaker for the tie. In Game #3, he was a psychological threat that I suspect probably kept the wolves away. He and the oblits also absorbed an astonishing amount of fire power, including 2 turns of First Rank Fire! Second Rank Fire! from the IG blob squad as well as bolters and plasmas from the hunters and missiles from the long fangs. Overall, Abaddon is a beast and a huge psychological weapon that affected the way my opponent played. Does that make him a HQ that every Chaos player has to take? No, but it sure made this list pretty darn entertaining to play.
So until next time, I'll see you at the Bay Area Open.
PS - A couple of days later, Janthkin and I had our battle that didn't happen....my Double-Trouble list against his Slaaneshi Chaos.
I'm not seeing why Jaws is such a big deal. Typhus can give a big chunk of your army 4+ deny and your chars only fail on a 6. It's annoying for the spawn, but that's about it. Are wulfen characters? If not his GH's can't really afford to get close since typhus and Abby will just run through them (and I'd love to see typhus go off in the middle of a guard blob). 15 frags a turn will put a dent in your zombies but they're SOOOO annoying in that all you need to do is find somewhere for 1 guy to hide out of LoS and he'll never get that KP.
I'm interested to see how deployment goes. I expect he'll reserve the squishier bits of his army but who knows.
Good report! Classic example of a good list piloted by an inexperienced player.
If only my opponent remembered to use the searchlights from his vehicles. Then again, without his stormbolters which I shot off, can he still use them? Will probably have to look that one up.
In 6th, as in 5th, Searchlights are automatically used after the vehicle shoots at a unit. If the vehicle is unable to shoot, for whatever reason, it can't use its Searchlight.
POST-TOURNAMENT REVIEW: That was a fun and great tournament. Everyone I played against was really cool. It was also a challenging one, especially my game #2 against Kingsley, which I would have to give the Match of the Tournament to. I ended up tied with Kingsley for 2nd place with 2-0-1 each. There were 2 players to go 3-0: Janthkin's Slaaneshi Chaos Marines with Daemon allies and the Space Marine/Imperial Guards player who got thumped by my Game #1 opponent just 2 days before. Both of them were losing badly in one of their games (Janthkin to my Game #3 opponent and the SM/IG player to a tyranid army very similar to Janthkin's) but both were saved by a little luck. Congrats.
Going into the tournament, I knew that my Double-Trouble list wasn't balanced and would probably have a tough time against certain armies and in certain matchups (like Emperor's Will with Hammer & Anvil deployment). Honestly, the lack of mobility in my list, as well as the lack of shooting, really hurts it. Its resilience helps it somewhat, but in a multiple objectives-based mission, this list will always have trouble. I think my generalship got me through the games, but if I were to go up against perhaps more seasoned players, I don't know if this army will have what it takes to pull off the win. Then again, like I said before, my goal in this tournament wasn't really to win it. Rather, I just wanted to have fun and see how my chaos can compete with some of the more competitive armies - the "big boys". In that regards, I've certainly achieved my goal and had a lot of fun.
As far as how my units did, I would probably give the MVP of the tournament to my obliterators. It was their shooting that knocked down 2 dreadknights, Coteaz and his unit and 1 vehicle in Game #1. In game #2, they killed 1 storm talon and 1 whirlwind but more importantly, they withstood and absorbed 3 turns of firing from practically my opponents entire army. In game #3, they were responsible for 3 of the 4 kill points - 2 rhinos and the vendetta. Their flexibility and resiliency was utterly amazing in my games, especially when you put Abaddon in there to soak up some of the Insta-killing wounds. I would say that the Runner-up would have to be Abaddon. He was a beast in Game #1, killing a dreadknight and Mordrak. In Game #2, he soaked up a huge amount of firepower, killed the shas'el and several combat squads and gave me Linebreaker for the tie. In Game #3, he was a psychological threat that I suspect probably kept the wolves away. He and the oblits also absorbed an astonishing amount of fire power, including 2 turns of First Rank Fire! Second Rank Fire! from the IG blob squad as well as bolters and plasmas from the hunters and missiles from the long fangs. Overall, Abaddon is a beast and a huge psychological weapon that affected the way my opponent played. Does that make him a HQ that every Chaos player has to take? No, but it sure made this list pretty darn entertaining to play.
So until next time, I'll see you at the Bay Area Open.
PS - A couple of days later, Janthkin and I had our battle that didn't happen....my Double-Trouble list against his Slaaneshi Chaos.
PS - A couple of days later, Janthkin and I had our battle that didn't happen....my Double-Trouble list against his Slaaneshi Chaos.
You really are spoiling us of late. Can't wait to see that conflict play out.
How is Janthkin's Chaos army set up?
His list consisted of this (from my guesstimate):
Slaaneshi Lord on Steed - Murder Sword
Lvl 3 Slaaneshi Sorcerer
Slaaneshi Herald (naked)
6x Fiends of Slaanesh - Unholy Might
6x Sonic Marines - Blastmaster, Sonic weapons
6x Sonic Marines - Blastmaster, Sonic weapons
6x Sonic Marines - Blastmaster, Sonic weapons
19x Cultists
5x Daemonettes
Heldrake
5x Havocs - 2x Autos, 2x Missiles
Slaanesh Daemon Prince - 3+, Wings, Pavane, Breath of Chaos, Hit & Run
Overall, the tournament was the very first time he ever used this list. Also, it really wasn't the list that he had wanted to take. He was going to bring 2 heldrakes but couldn't finish the 2nd one in time. Thus, he just added the DP last minute to keep it Slaaneshi-themed.
Unfortunately, there will be no battle report for this game. Janthkin called me from out of the blue for a pick-up game and I didn't have my camera with me. We were also under time-constraints so I didn't bother to go home and get it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vemlin wrote: Awesome battle for the chaos. I've gone back and looked at some of your recent battle reports, really cool stuff!
How were the Oblits able to TL fire against the Vendetta?
They can use multi-melta or twin-linked meltaguns. I fired the tl-meltaguns.
Unfortunately, there will be no battle report for this game. Janthkin called me from out of the blue for a pick-up game and I didn't have my camera with me. We were also under time-constraints so I didn't bother to go home and get it.
Well as I said you really have been spoiling us with the number of reports you're churning out, it's much appreciated.
Unfortunately, there will be no battle report for this game. Janthkin called me from out of the blue for a pick-up game and I didn't have my camera with me. We were also under time-constraints so I didn't bother to go home and get it.
Well as I said you really have been spoiling us with the number of reports you're churning out, it's much appreciated.
Very well done, I am a bit disappointed that Abaddon did not spawn himself this game. I also whiffed badly on just about all the game results - I attribute it to underestimating your abilities as a general. Many reports you post here are against top notch opponents, so facing a more uniform distribution of players really differentiates skill in these games.
calypso2ts wrote: Very well done, I am a bit disappointed that Abaddon did not spawn himself this game. I also whiffed badly on just about all the game results - I attribute it to underestimating your abilities as a general. Many reports you post here are against top notch opponents, so facing a more uniform distribution of players really differentiates skill in these games.
Well, I liked your analysis anyways. From just a list-perspective, they were probably better and more balanced than mine and you weren't given any info with regards to mission-type, deployment and the skill levels of my opponents.
I think my opponents were too afraid to get into combat with Abaddon. Well, all except my GK opponent.
Kingsley wrote: Stormtalons can only use their special Hover Strike, they cannot do a normal Hover Mode move-- otherwise my second Stormtalon certainly would have come into play as another blocking unit.
That was the missing piece; thanks for clarifying. Silly Space Marines.
Are you still happy with the bastion?
Yes. I have found it very useful. However I think it is not a choice that most armies profit from, as in many cases an Aegis Defense Line will be superior.
The Bastion provides the following advantages:
-Guaranteed LoS-blocking terrain (especially useful for objectives)
-Extremely high durability for unit inside against shooting (AV14 buildings more or less don't care about many armies-- autocannons, missile launchers, plasma guns, and almost every gun in Codex: Necrons are useless or near-useless against it)
-3+ cover for units (inc. vehicles) drawing cover from the sides of the building (note that this does not apply to units on the battlements)
However, the Aegis Defense Line provides a much greater amount of cover (and better cover) for infantry. In armies with weak saves, especially Imperial Guard, the Aegis seems like a perhaps better choice. The Bastion is ideal for protecting a single unit that is a potential lynchpin. For instance, I use it to protect my Broadside Battlesuits, which are a really strong anti-tank unit as well as a backup anti-flyer unit. Against many opponents the Bastion more or less makes the Broadsides invulnerable.
Other units that strike me as appealing for putting inside Bastions include Retributors, Vindicare Assassins, Trueborn with Dark Lances, and Tau Pathfinders-- units with efficient firepower that are typically "glass cannons."
Hey Guys-
I was the Space Wolf/IG player in the 3rd game, and I will say, playing jy2 and Janthkin in the tourney were great introductions to 6th edition tournament play. In the game against jy2, I found myself believing I could shoot my way progressively through jy2's army, starting with the Obliterators and Abbadon. I haven't played since 4th edition, and believe me, lasguns as just as awful now as they were back then. Combined with his Oblit's 2+ saves, I just didn't have enough AP2 to kill em. By the time I realized this was a bad target selection for the majority of my army, the game had been decided by my poor placement and destruction of my rhinos. The Vendetta died and it was game over...The mission type was tough from the beginning, I'm not that new to not know that, and in hindsight I should have probably thrown everything forward in a mass wave of carnage and saw what ended up standing. But I trusted to my gun line and it didn't kill enough... Need another Valk, possibly a Leman Russ Demolisher... until next time!
Lasguns can do a surprising amount of damage, especially with FRFSRF, but when shooting at a unit with T5 and 2+ armor, you're only averaging 1 wound per 36 hits, which is not usually a recipe for success.
SabrX wrote: The one mission that mech players fear: Purge the Alien.
Overall, solid victory Jy2!
Thanks!
Fortunately, it isn't as bad as it used to be as only 1 in 6 missions are like this. But hey, if you choose to go mech, then you should be aware of this limitation, just as a foot-list should be aware that heldrake-spam will kill his army.
Kingsley wrote: Stormtalons can only use their special Hover Strike, they cannot do a normal Hover Mode move-- otherwise my second Stormtalon certainly would have come into play as another blocking unit.
That was the missing piece; thanks for clarifying. Silly Space Marines.
Are you still happy with the bastion?
Yes. I have found it very useful. However I think it is not a choice that most armies profit from, as in many cases an Aegis Defense Line will be superior.
The Bastion provides the following advantages:
-Guaranteed LoS-blocking terrain (especially useful for objectives)
-Extremely high durability for unit inside against shooting (AV14 buildings more or less don't care about many armies-- autocannons, missile launchers, plasma guns, and almost every gun in Codex: Necrons are useless or near-useless against it)
-3+ cover for units (inc. vehicles) drawing cover from the sides of the building (note that this does not apply to units on the battlements)
However, the Aegis Defense Line provides a much greater amount of cover (and better cover) for infantry. In armies with weak saves, especially Imperial Guard, the Aegis seems like a perhaps better choice. The Bastion is ideal for protecting a single unit that is a potential lynchpin. For instance, I use it to protect my Broadside Battlesuits, which are a really strong anti-tank unit as well as a backup anti-flyer unit. Against many opponents the Bastion more or less makes the Broadsides invulnerable.
Other units that strike me as appealing for putting inside Bastions include Retributors, Vindicare Assassins, Trueborn with Dark Lances, and Tau Pathfinders-- units with efficient firepower that are typically "glass cannons."
I agree. The ADL is better for more armies and in more situations. However, the bastion does have its uses with certain armies.
I especially like the vindicare-in-a-box suggestion. I may just give that a try....after I get my bastion.
lamada22 wrote: Hey Guys-
I was the Space Wolf/IG player in the 3rd game, and I will say, playing jy2 and Janthkin in the tourney were great introductions to 6th edition tournament play. In the game against jy2, I found myself believing I could shoot my way progressively through jy2's army, starting with the Obliterators and Abbadon. I haven't played since 4th edition, and believe me, lasguns as just as awful now as they were back then. Combined with his Oblit's 2+ saves, I just didn't have enough AP2 to kill em. By the time I realized this was a bad target selection for the majority of my army, the game had been decided by my poor placement and destruction of my rhinos. The Vendetta died and it was game over...The mission type was tough from the beginning, I'm not that new to not know that, and in hindsight I should have probably thrown everything forward in a mass wave of carnage and saw what ended up standing. But I trusted to my gun line and it didn't kill enough... Need another Valk, possibly a Leman Russ Demolisher... until next time!
Hi Phil,
It was good to meet you during the tournament. You run a solid SW list. I think with a little more practice whenever you have time, it's going to be a force to be reckoned with. It doesn't require much tweaking. The only thing it really needs is an Aegis Defense Line with Quad-guns both for anti-flyer defense and protection for your guys. To get that, I actually recommend dropping your transports - which is a First Blood liability - for the ADL and probably more bodies or special weapons.
I think if we had played the Relic, your chances for a victory would have been much better. But VP's was definitely a tough mission for you, especially against my army. My army doesn't give out VP's very easily.
BTW, if you ever feel like having a game, we are usually at Game Kastle on Thursday evenings 6-10pm.
Lasguns can do a surprising amount of damage, especially with FRFSRF, but when shooting at a unit with T5 and 2+ armor, you're only averaging 1 wound per 36 hits, which is not usually a recipe for success.
Agreed. Lasguns can actually do a lot of damage, but T5/2+ is just not a good target for it.
However, consider the book powers for your Rune Priest in the future. Prescience or Misfortune are devastatingly powerful when combined with so many shots. Or even both if you take a Lvl 2 psyker. In any case, I like the RP+blob combination.
Great reports! All good opponents and varied lists. Bugs are going to BAO then?
You should try a Nurgle Biker Lord with Burning Brand instead of Abaddon if you are looking to tweak. He can keep your Spawn going longer or run with a Biker unit and burn stuff.
Very happy you went with Double Trouble, it's far and away the most interesting list I've seen you run. That said, I would love to mail you some round bases to replace all those square dudes, or just round base them myself if I could
BladeWalker wrote: Great reports! All good opponents and varied lists. Bugs are going to BAO then?
You should try a Nurgle Biker Lord with Burning Brand instead of Abaddon if you are looking to tweak. He can keep your Spawn going longer or run with a Biker unit and burn stuff.
I may just try that. But my first addition to the army will probably be a 2nd heldrake. At 1850, I can fit him in there without much problem but at 1750, Abaddon's probably going to have to go.
As for the BAO, let's just say there will be another vote-off in the future between what may be my 2 best armies - bugs and my wraithwing necrons.
Very happy you went with Double Trouble, it's far and away the most interesting list I've seen you run. That said, I would love to mail you some round bases to replace all those square dudes, or just round base them myself if I could
- Salvage
If at the larger tournaments, then I may just have to switch out the bases but at the smaller local tournament, it wasn't really that big of a deal. Still, just in case, I brought more of my "zombie" guardsmen in case if I had to switch them out. So I was prepared for that eventuality. But the zombies really look much more like zombies and most people here subscribe to the rule of cool.
Janthkin wrote: They're Fantasy zombies from his brother's VC army; I think he'd object to rebasing them onto 25mm rounds from 20mm squares.
Nah, he probably wouldn't object. He doesn't really run them anymore, opting to go all skellies instead. But still, I'd have to get his permission and probably give him something in trade.
There is also 1 huge disadvantage about the 20mm squares and that is you can kill more of them with blasts/templates....especially after you pavane them.
Eldarain wrote: What is the basis for complaint when it comes to the round square debate?
It says to base them with what Is provided, and the only available GW zombies come with square bases.
I can see how some people may take issue with it. If I were to take this army to a larger tournament (like the BAO, Adepticon, Nova or the Golden Throne), I'd probably have to swap out the bases. But most likely, I'd probably end up getting new zombies so as to not mess with my brother's minis (he's still got 2 boxes of zombies unassembled). And just in case, I will bring my "cadian" cultists with me to tournaments in the off-chance that someone is anal enough to complain to the TO about them.
Eldarain wrote: What is the basis for complaint when it comes to the round square debate?.
It's almost entirely aesthetics for me
But as noted there are possible in game issues as well. Also not sure the 'base it with what it came with' argument holds up when you're using Counts As
The next large tournament I plan to attend will be the Bay Area Open in the beginning of March. It is perhaps the biggest tournament in the West Coast (US) and is a 2-day 6-7 game tournament. That will be a fun report to do and I hope you guys will enjoy it.
Until then, I'll probably put out 1 report or so each week.
As I really do not have a lot of the larger tournament experience, have you seen or heard about people bringing units with square bases to tournaments? If so, do you know what happened to them (if anything)?
BTW, next week I am going to be down in LA. I may get a game in against Blackmoor or Yakface (or maybe even both!).
As I really do not have a lot of the larger tournament experience, have you seen or heard about people bringing units with square bases to tournaments? If so, do you know what happened to them (if anything)?
BTW, next week I am going to be down in LA. I may get a game in against Blackmoor or Yakface (or maybe even both!).
I have. I've taken those same Slaaneshi daemons to tournaments (on those same bases) since 3e. Never had any problems.
I've seen people do it, and for a while I used to do i with my Lesser Daemon packs in my CSM army. Originally I thought it didn't make a material difference, and then I started noticing that it did. The square bases...
A) Allow the unit to Deep Strike in a tighter/smaller formation, making Deep Strike safer for the owning player.
B) Allow the unit to spread out in wider coherency, because the bases are ~40% wider across at the corners than the diameter of an equivalent-sized round base. This helps reduce the number of hits you take from blasts, and allows the unit to cover a wider space for purposes of assault and blocking.
C) Allow you to gain distance (up to nearly a half inch, with a 25mm base) by rotation of the base, like rectangular vehicles do. I was in a tournament where this made the difference between who won the final game to win the thing, and that was the straw that broke the camel's back for me.
After I realized that there actually aren't offsetting disadvantages to the squares, only advantages, I realized that the squares were functionally modeling for advantage, in addition to their aesthetic issues, and I re-based my lesser daemons.
I break it down in more detail in the thread linked above.
Now, the 20mm squares you're using actually are less of a problem, because they don't can so much distance, but they're still ~28mm wide corner to corner, which allows a small but measurable increase in coherency dispersion. Their smaller width also allows you to fit more guys in a smaller space so can be useful for hiding a unit more easily. They also (for my money) look even worse and more out of place on a 40k table. I would never personally use them, but I'd try not to be a jerk about it if I saw someone else do it, and I'd try to keep my feedback constructive and friendly.
Mannahnin wrote: I've seen people do it, and for a while I used to do i with my Lesser Daemon packs in my CSM army. Originally I thought it didn't make a material difference, and then I started noticing that it did. The square bases...
A) Allow the unit to Deep Strike in a tighter/smaller formation, making Deep Strike safer for the owning player.
B) Allow the unit to spread out in wider coherency, because the bases are ~40% wider across at the corners than the diameter of an equivalent-sized round base. This helps reduce the number of hits you take from blasts, and allows the unit to cover a wider space for purposes of assault and blocking.
C) Allow you to gain distance (up to nearly a half inch, with a 25mm base) by rotation of the base, like rectangular vehicles do. I was in a tournament where this made the difference between who won the final game to win the thing, and that was the straw that broke the camel's back for me.
After I realized that there actually aren't offsetting disadvantages to the squares, only advantages, I realized that the squares were functionally modeling for advantage, in addition to their aesthetic issues, and I re-based all me lesser daemons.
I break it down in more detail in the thread linked above.
Cool. Good to know. If I were to take them to the BAO (which I'm not planning to, but you never know), I would rebase them. But in my casual games, I'd probably leave them as is (or my brother's minis at least).
Awesome reports (as usual) jy2! Glad you were able to take the pictures in a tourney setting. It's also nice to see I am not the only one taking unfinished models to tournies.
whoadirty wrote: Awesome reports (as usual) jy2! Glad you were able to take the pictures in a tourney setting. It's also nice to see I am not the only one taking unfinished models to tournies.
There was no painting requirement for this tournament so there were plenty of unfinished armies. Mine is actually quite done compared to some of the others in the tourney. I've also gotten quite proficient with my picture-taking. It doesn't take much time at all, maybe only 2-3 seconds per shot. 100 shots takes up at most 5 minutes of time and not even that, because you can take shots on your opponent's turn while he is making his moves.
The trick is to remember to take photos as many times, people just get too engrossed in the game that they forget about any picture-taking.
Eldercaveman wrote: I want to see the Nids ruin some people day when they under estimate how good they are.
It's a little local tournament; I can assure you that no one who would be there would underestimate tyranids.
I'd vote against your Tyranids, just because of time issues - I'm not sure you're up to pace yet, given how multiple barrage weapons tend to screw with time. If you do bring them, make sure you have multiple large blast markers to speed it up. For that matter, having one of them with thin legs (so that it can stand on the table) would actually be very handy for that scenario.
Chaos seems like the most fun (non-Tyranid) list to play of your available options.
So Janthkin, what are some tips for speed playing nids. My last two tournies I had a hard time getting past turns 3-4. (2 Dakkarants, 2 Tervies, 2 - 18 man gargs, 2 - 2 man zoes, 3 Hive Guard, 2 - 10 man gants, 3-1 man Biovores)
0) "Display" board. Everyone at a tournament should have one of these - you do NOT want to be putting your models away between rounds.
1) Unit deployment trays. Consider the size of your army - you've got 70 models there. If you're grabbing gargoyles off your display board, you have to go back to the display board every 4-8 models or so. If you have a tray containing a whole unit, that unit is deployed much faster.
2) Dice tray. One of those gargoyle units, on the charge, is kicking out 36 attacks. You don't want to have to track down the dice, reroll cocked dice, etc. Rolling into a tray keeps everything nice & tight - you'll save a few seconds on ever die roll. (As a bonus, my dice tray is also my Gargoyles deployment tray in most tournaments.)
3) Known numbers of dice. For devourer tyrants in particular, it's very handy to just have a set of 12 dice set aside for their shooting. No counting required - grab and go! And I'd strongly suggest sticking with small dice; my Dakka dice aren't used for Tyranids.
4) If you really must use biovores, get several blast markers. By preference, stick little stilt-legs on one of them - that's your primary marker, and it will hold itself up in 80% of situations, making it much easier to scatter it, flip secondary blasts off it, and count models hit.
5) Movement template. Get one of these. Use it. Remember that if your unit starts spread out to maximum coherency, it will finish that way - you may not to measure every model's movement, but can measure w/the 2" portion on the template for final position instead. It's faster.
6) Know your rules inside & out. You can't lose time looking up the leadership on a biovore when they have to make an Instinctive Behavior check.
Most of this is just usual tournament optimization, of the sort an MEQ player doesn't need to use as much. Plan your turn out during your opponent's turn, already having a few alternative plans in mind if something changes as his turn progresses. Remember that you can premeasure whatever and whenever you want, so do some of that during your opponent's turn, too (but not all of it - don't tip your hand tactically).
0) "Display" board. Everyone at a tournament should have one of these - you do NOT want to be putting your models away between rounds.
1) Unit deployment trays. Consider the size of your army - you've got 70 models there. If you're grabbing gargoyles off your display board, you have to go back to the display board every 4-8 models or so. If you have a tray containing a whole unit, that unit is deployed much faster.
2) Dice tray. One of those gargoyle units, on the charge, is kicking out 36 attacks. You don't want to have to track down the dice, reroll cocked dice, etc. Rolling into a tray keeps everything nice & tight - you'll save a few seconds on ever die roll. (As a bonus, my dice tray is also my Gargoyles deployment tray in most tournaments.)
3) Known numbers of dice. For devourer tyrants in particular, it's very handy to just have a set of 12 dice set aside for their shooting. No counting required - grab and go! And I'd strongly suggest sticking with small dice; my Dakka dice aren't used for Tyranids.
4) If you really must use biovores, get several blast markers. By preference, stick little stilt-legs on one of them - that's your primary marker, and it will hold itself up in 80% of situations, making it much easier to scatter it, flip secondary blasts off it, and count models hit.
5) Movement template. Get one of these. Use it. Remember that if your unit starts spread out to maximum coherency, it will finish that way - you may not to measure every model's movement, but can measure w/the 2" portion on the template for final position instead. It's faster.
6) Know your rules inside & out. You can't lose time looking up the leadership on a biovore when they have to make an Instinctive Behavior check.
Most of this is just usual tournament optimization, of the sort an MEQ player doesn't need to use as much. Plan your turn out during your opponent's turn, already having a few alternative plans in mind if something changes as his turn progresses. Remember that you can premeasure whatever and whenever you want, so do some of that during your opponent's turn, too (but not all of it - don't tip your hand tactically).
Great tips, Kevin!
Let me add to that.
7) When moving, you don't need to measure the movement of every single gribbly. I usually just measure the distance moved by the "leader of the pack" (the one or ones that are furthest ahead in the unit) and move those. Then eyeball the ones behind and move them behind accordingly. That's how you play with horde armies.
8) Sometimes when rolling with large number of dice, do it in batches and resolve it right away. For example, you have 30 gargoyles charging. I opt to roll in 2 batches of 30 dice. Instead of rolling to hit with the first batch and then rolling to hit again withe 2nd batch. I roll to hit and to wound for the first batch. I then repeat for the 2nd batch, rolling both the hits and the wounds. This saves a little time because you don't have to take the time to add both batches to see the total number of hits and then pull out dice out again to roll to wound. And if you want to go a step further, you can even ask your opponent to make saves after each batch if he wants.
9) Deployment. If I am going second, I actually start deploying while my opponent is deploying his army. I tell him that I am just putting models down and this is not my final deployment. And then after he finishes deploying, I can choose to move units or I can just leave my army as is and call it deployed. This saves a ton of time depending on how many models you have.
10) Sometimes, I just ignore the units that I think won't really make a difference in the game. For example, I have a unit of termagants in cover on an objective. I just leave them there and forget about them unless my opponent is making a play for that objective (or I think he is about to).
11) Pay attention to the time and play/plan accordingly. If you are only on Turn 2 and half of the time is already up, then you need to let your opponent know and push the action. Pace yourselves and remind your opponent of time if you don't think you are going at the right pace.
12) Offer to help out your opponent, especially if he has a large or horde army or if he is a little slower. Against such an opponent, I usually say this, "we don't have much time, can I help you to move some of your hordes? Where do you want to move that unit and how far? etc." Then I actually help him to move it. You have to watch out though. Don't move any units when the game is at stake (i.e. moving towards an objective or critical assault). I also offer to help him with dice. If he is rolling a lot of dice, sometimes I help him to pick out the misses (or hits depending on how he takes out his dice). Remember to always ask for permission before touching any of his models or dice.
Follow these tips and you can get through at least 4 turns with most armies.
I'll look into the dice tray, movement trays and special dice for the devourers. I only run solo biovores, but the large blast marker on stilts is a good idea regardless as then I don't have to sit and hold tha darn thing while rolling. I think I have the rest the items.
I like the idea of "pre-deploying" and asking other people to help move models.
13) Create a tracking sheet for all the crap you have to keep track of. I made a sheet that lists all my psychers individually, has the charts for the three psychic powers we can take, and all 3 warlord charts, as well as a little box for notes. I put this into a clear cover sheet, with my list on the other side. Have a dry erase pen.
That way I can easily generate and keep track of my psychic powers. Do my warlord trait. Mark off which tervigons pooped out. Tally KPs. If I have em I can write down ymgarl placement. Keep track of the iron arm or warp speed bonus. Saves so much time.
winterman wrote: 13) Create a tracking sheet for all the crap you have to keep track of. I made a sheet that lists all my psychers individually, has the charts for the three psychic powers we can take, and all 3 warlord charts, as well as a little box for notes. I put this into a clear cover sheet, with my list on the other side. Have a dry erase pen.
That way I can easily generate and keep track of my psychic powers. Do my warlord trait. Mark off which tervigons pooped out. Tally KPs. If I have em I can write down ymgarl placement. Keep track of the iron arm or warp speed bonus. Saves so much time.
Yeah, I usually note down psychic powers on the army list that I give to my opponent in the beginning (or an extra list that I have). I then use color-coded dice to indicate in-game effects. For example, red dice to indicate wound counters, grey dice to indicate Iron Arm buffs, a red bead to indicate positive buffs like Endurance or Catalyst, a blue bead to indicate negative buffs like Enfeeble, Doom, Misfortune, maledictions cast on my bugs, etc.
Eldercaveman wrote: You guys should make this info into an article/thread.... An Idiots Guide to Tournament play
Lol. I'm sure there's some of those in the Tacticas forum.
Grade: B.
