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Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/02/23 10:24:33


Post by: BaronIveagh


I'd always suspected that Putin was supported by the Ruinous Powers. I guess now we know......


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/02/23 14:05:47


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Wyrmalla wrote:
40K (hmn, or D&D) players amongst the Pro-Russian Neo-Nazis it'd seem...


It is the symbol of the Eurasia Party. Not real neo-nazis, but still nationalist far-right. They might be Chaos Cultists,


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/02/23 14:22:20


Post by: Wyrmalla


Its from a thread over on a military current events forum. Someone yelled "all Pro-Ukrainians are Nazis", queue arms race of spamming pictures of both side's right sector (and far left in the some cases ...and the even weirder Nazi Communist groups in others). Those groups without the nerve to show off swastikas really like the black sun motif...

Joke is that a load of Russian Neo-Nazis joined the Ukrainian side as they're dissatisfied with the state Russia's in and want to create a white nation there. ...Which is to say how extreme they must be then considering Russia's already pretty fare to their cause as it is (lists all the Neo-Nazi politicians/ fascist policies).


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/02/23 15:55:52


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Wyrmalla wrote:
Its from a thread over on a military current events forum. Someone yelled "all Pro-Ukrainians are Nazis", queue arms race of spamming pictures of both side's right sector (and far left in the some cases ...and the even weirder Nazi Communist groups in others). Those groups without the nerve to show off swastikas really like the black sun motif...
Yeah, it looks good and is all mysterious and occult (most neo-nazis are pretty fond of paganism and occult stuff, I have found) The Kolovrat and Wolfsangel are also pretty popular symbols, as are the black-white-red flag of the German Empire and the black-yellow-white flag of the Russian Empire. So Swastikas or no, recognising neo-nazis is usually pretty easy

 Wyrmalla wrote:
Joke is that a load of Russian Neo-Nazis joined the Ukrainian side as they're dissatisfied with the state Russia's in and want to create a white nation there. ...Which is to say how extreme they must be then considering Russia's already pretty fare to their cause as it is (lists all the Neo-Nazi politicians/ fascist policies).
Neo-nazis don't really view it that way. Russia is very much a multi-ethnic state in which many minorities have special rights and privileges in their respective territories, and equal rights outside of them. Neo-nazis often think that the Russian government panders too much to its minorities and puts them above the Slavic population. They are afraid that the minorities, with their higher birthrates, will eventually outnumber the Slavic people and take over (parts of) Russia. They also want to stop Slavic Russians from interacting and mixing with the non-Slavic populations. Basically, they want the Russian government to segregate society along ethnic lines, and the Russian government of course doesn't really pay any attention to their crazy ideas, which frustrates them.
Along with that, the Ukrainian government is much more tolerant of neo-nazi and extremist groups than the Russian government. The Ukrainian government needs these groups to fight for them, while the Russian government sees them as a threat to its authority and usually cracks down hard on any neo-nazi organisation that gets too large, ambitious or extreme. Most groups therefore can't actually participate in the political process of Russia, whereas they can in Ukraine.
And seeing as that Russians and Ukrainians are technically both Russians (English language unfortenately does not have seperate words for Russians as citizens of the Russian Federation and Russians as a people (maybe that Ukrainian idea of re-introducing "Muscovites" is not so bad after all)), it is not so weird that these groups take the Ukrainian side. It is only really the anti-Western, pro-(Muscovite)Russian state groups that are anti-Ukrainian.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/02/23 23:16:11


Post by: Yaraton


 Wyrmalla wrote:
The Russian paper tiger: A foreign volunteer in the Ukrainian Army’s view of Russian troops


A person who wrote this article is most likely an American, judging purely from the terms he uses and the information he presents.




Ukrainian neo-Nazis commemorate the death of members of their volunteer battalions. Such a happy bunch, ain't they?
@1:39 - "Moskali [derogative term for Russians] na nozhi, na nozhi! [on knives, on knives]"
"There is no Nazism in Ukraine." (Any Western politician)







Yet another reason why I think Putin is a traitor to Russian people. Instead of a finial blockade of Junta he allowed the Russian government and private banks to operate in ukraine and thus finance Junta. I still hope he and his family will end up hanged on Kremlin walls. It's too bad it didn't happened to Yeltsin's daughter and now she and her family are Austrian citizens.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Wyrmalla wrote:
Its from a thread over on a military current events forum. Someone yelled "all Pro-Ukrainians are Nazis", queue arms race of spamming pictures of both side's right sector (and far left in the some cases ...and the even weirder Nazi Communist groups in others). Those groups without the nerve to show off swastikas really like the black sun motif...

Joke is that a load of Russian Neo-Nazis joined the Ukrainian side as they're dissatisfied with the state Russia's in and want to create a white nation there. ...Which is to say how extreme they must be then considering Russia's already pretty fare to their cause as it is (lists all the Neo-Nazi politicians/ fascist policies).


The joke is that some of those "Russian Neo-Nazis" identify themselves as "ethnic ukrainians, living in Russia". Therefore, when you see a picture of people with Nazi salute, which apparently was made in Russia, you never know who they really are.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/02/24 01:20:43


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


Yet another reason why I think Putin is a traitor to Russian people. Instead of a finial blockade of Junta he allowed the Russian government and private banks to operate in ukraine and thus finance Junta. I still hope he and his family will end up hanged on Kremlin walls. It's too bad it didn't happened to Yeltsin's daughter and now she and her family are Austrian citizens.


Pot. Kettle. Black.

Is calling for the lynching of public figures and their fething families on the Dakka Bingo?


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/02/24 01:48:37


Post by: easysauce


 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Wyrmalla wrote:
40K (hmn, or D&D) players amongst the Pro-Russian Neo-Nazis it'd seem...




It is the symbol of the Eurasia Party. Not real neo-nazis, but still nationalist far-right. They might be Chaos Cultists,





Wait a minute there... the double headed eagle is on most of the imperials... that means the emperors on the wrong side all along!

tzeeeeeeench*




*Or possibly creeeeed


*edited to fit your internet


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/02/24 05:16:34


Post by: Yaraton


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Pot. Kettle. Black.

Is calling for the lynching of public figures and their fething families on the Dakka Bingo?


I never seen any regrets by anyone after Ceaușescu and his wife were shot without a proper trial. But do continue, you must onto something here.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/02/24 08:32:20


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


 Yaraton wrote:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Pot. Kettle. Black.

Is calling for the lynching of public figures and their fething families on the Dakka Bingo?


I never seen any regrets by anyone after Ceaușescu and his wife were shot without a proper trial. But do continue, you must onto something here.


You really, REALLY need to stop it with the Whataboutism. It's getting silly.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/02/24 10:01:11


Post by: Wyrmalla


 Yaraton wrote:


The joke is that some of those "Russian Neo-Nazis" identify themselves as "ethnic ukrainians, living in Russia". Therefore, when you see a picture of people with Nazi salute, which apparently was made in Russia, you never know who they really are.


"There's no Russian Nazis in Russia! They're Ukrainians!"



Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/02/24 11:58:26


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


 Yaraton wrote:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Pot. Kettle. Black.

Is calling for the lynching of public figures and their fething families on the Dakka Bingo?


I never seen any regrets by anyone after Ceaușescu and his wife were shot without a proper trial. But do continue, you must onto something here.


That was nearly 30 years ago, before I was even born. Exactly what do you expect me to say about it, and what the feth does it have to do with Ukraine?


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/02/24 22:23:22


Post by: Yaraton


 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 Yaraton wrote:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Pot. Kettle. Black.

Is calling for the lynching of public figures and their fething families on the Dakka Bingo?


I never seen any regrets by anyone after Ceaușescu and his wife were shot without a proper trial. But do continue, you must onto something here.


You really, REALLY need to stop it with the Whataboutism. It's getting silly.


You REALLY need to stop telling me what to do before I told where to go and what you can do with yourself. It's getting silly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Wyrmalla wrote:


"There's no Russian Nazis in Russia! They're Ukrainians!"



Way to go to make an assumption out of something I didn't say. I never said that there are no ethnic Russians in Russian who are not fond of Nazi ideology. 20 years of spiting at your own history and rampant anti-Russian propaganda by the West via payed by the CIA so-called "liberals" do produced at least some results.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/02/24 22:35:53


Post by: Wyrmalla


Meanwhile Ukraine's Eurovision entry. The subject's the Soviet deportation of Crimean Tartars in 1944. ...A step up from Poland's "Slavic girls are hot" song from last year IIRC.






Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/02/24 22:39:31


Post by: Yaraton


text removed.

Reds8n


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/02/24 22:43:38


Post by: Wyrmalla


 Yaraton wrote:


First, if you don't know something about a historical event because you are too young, you shouldn't try to voice you opinion, especially when it comes to things that may offend somebody? I personally find your ignorant and bigoted opinions slightly offensive. Second, there is thing called "logic" if you are not capable to see a parallel between the historical events, how you suppose to have a conversation about the historical events? You've questioned my personal view about Putin and I told you that this kind of thinking has it's examples in another cultures. Putin has a lot to do with that fething "ukraine" that still unfortunately exists. Is it clear now or should I repeat myself for better understanding?


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Pot. Kettle. Black.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/02/24 23:16:28


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Yaraton wrote:
I never seen any regrets by anyone after Ceaușescu and his wife were shot without a proper trial.


"We regret the trial did not take place in an open and public fashion," - Official US press release regarding the executions.

http://www.theguardian.com/century/1980-1989/Story/0,6051,110504,00.html

Mind you, their own son said that their executions were necessary.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/02/25 00:28:07


Post by: Yaraton


[double post]


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BaronIveagh wrote:


"We regret the trial did not take place in an open and public fashion," - Official US press release regarding the executions.

http://www.theguardian.com/century/1980-1989/Story/0,6051,110504,00.html

Mind you, their own son said that their executions were necessary.


Thanks.



Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/02/25 00:31:17


Post by: Alpharius




ALL of the rules of the site apply to ALL forums at ALL times.

RULE #1 - SERIOUSLY.

ANYTHING ELSE that even looks a little bit like a personal attack on anyone by anyone will get the poster a suspension.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/02/25 00:43:49


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


Jeez, Yaraton. Try looking in a mirror. You're calling for public figures to be lynched without trial. You're basically advocating murder. And yet I'm the bigoted, offensive one?

(Spoiler-ed a wall of text).
Spoiler:
I personally find your ignorant and bigoted opinions slightly offensive.

Point out where in this thread i have said something "bigoted and offensive". Thats a very loaded accusation, so back it up with some evidence.

I find YOU to be violent and bloodthirsty, judging by your calls for public figures and their families to be lynched.
First, if you don't know something about a historical event because you are too young, you shouldn't try to voice you opinion, especially when it comes to things that may offend somebody?

As Appeal to Authority fallacies go, thats a new one. Only people old enough to have been around at the time of the event have the right to voice an opinion on it? What is that, Appeal to Seniority? My point regarding Ceaușescu's murder taking place 30 years ago before my birth is NOT that I know nothing about his execution. In fact I already knew who he was, I sure as feth don't need you to tell me. My point is that his execution took place so long ago that its completely irrelevant to the current discussion about Ukraine.
Second, there is thing called "logic" if you are not capable to see a parallel between the historical events, how you suppose to have a conversation about the historical events?

I never denied theres a parallel. I'm saying Ceaușescu has little relevance to this discussion on Ukraine, besides your desire for Putin to be murdered in the same manner as Ceaușescu. As AlmightWalrus said, you're engaging in whataboutism.
You've questioned my personal view about Putin and I told you that this kind of thinking has it's examples in another cultures.

No I didn't, I said nothing about him or your opinion on him. I did not criticize your opinion of Putin, I sure as hell am not defending him. I'm criticizing your violent desire for him and his family to be murdered. Its YOUR thinking I'm criticizing, not other cultures'.
Is it clear now or should I repeat myself for better understanding?

No. I think you should step away from the computer, go take a long cold shower and calm down.
Wyrmalla wrote: "There's no Russian Nazis in Russia! They're Ukrainians!"
Way to go to make an assumption out of something I didn't say. I never said that there are no ethnic Russians in Russian who are not fond of Nazi ideology. 20 years of spiting at your own history and rampant anti-Russian propaganda by the West via payed by the CIA so-called "liberals" do produced at least some results.

I'm pretty certain Wyrmalla is responding to the quote from the Russian nationalists that you posted. Hes NOT implying that you yourself said it.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/02/25 01:44:57


Post by: Yaraton


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Jeez, Yaraton. Try looking in a mirror. You're calling for public figures to be lynched without trial. You're basically advocating murder. And yet I'm the bigoted, offensive one?

You post about Russia and Russians, I posted my personal opinion about the top of Russian "elite". How the hell am I exactly "bigoted"?

Spoiler:
Point out where in this thread i have said something "bigoted and offensive". Thats a very loaded accusation, so back it up with some evidence.

Well, since you've asked so nicely, I sure will. I will go through all 171 pages of this topic and pick all your posts which I find offensive.

I find YOU to be violent and bloodthirsty, judging by your calls for public figures and their families to be lynched.

Oh well, live with it. I have no sympathy what so ever for the enemies of Russian people. Russia was too merciful to it's enemies and this why we have today what we have. As long as I don't break forum rules I can post anything I want.

As Appeal to Authority fallacies go, thats a new one. Only people old enough to have been around at the time of the event have the right to voice an opinion on it? What is that, Appeal to Seniority?

I am giving you an example, you reply is "That was nearly 30 years ago, before I was even born." So suddenly the whole world should stop because of something you have no clue about? It doesn't work like this.

My point regarding Ceaușescu's murder taking place 30 years ago before my birth is NOT that I know nothing about his execution.

Yet you still felt that it's important for everyone to know that if something has happened before you were born (B.C.? LOL) it's not admissible. Good luck with that.

In fact I already knew who he was, I sure as feth don't need you to tell me.

I will tell you anything I want as long as you feel like telling me anything you want. Deal with it.

My point is that his execution took place so long ago that its completely irrelevant to the current discussion about Ukraine.

It's relevant because I feel that a key figure of this conflict - Putin, should be treated the same way.

I never denied theres a parallel. I'm saying Ceaușescu has little relevance to this discussion on Ukraine, besides your desire for Putin to be murdered in the same manner as Ceaușescu. As AlmightWalrus said, you're engaging in whataboutism.

I've seen accusations, I am yet to see any prove of it. My logical parallel between Ceaușescu and Putin is quite obvious.

No I didn't, I said nothing about him or your opinion on him. I did not criticize your opinion of Putin, I sure as hell am not defending him. I'm criticizing your violent desire for him and his family to be murdered. Its YOUR thinking I'm criticizing, not other cultures'.

Oh well, I hate Putin, oh well I want to see him dead. If it's my "violent desire" you don't like then say so. As of now I see only trolling from you.

No. I think you should step away from the computer, go take a long cold shower and calm down.

What are you now, a personal coach? I've got my own routing set up and I don't need any advices about the task management.

I'm pretty certain Wyrmalla is responding to the quote from the Russian nationalists that you posted. Hes NOT implying that you yourself said it.

Why the hell he is quoting me then? Does he need a lecture on how to use forum tags properly?


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/02/25 02:21:52


Post by: Iron_Captain


I think the two of you should just drop it. Let each other have his own opinion. Further discussion is not productive and will only lead to annoyance. Annoyance leads to anger. Anger leads to rage. Rage leads to worshipping Khorne. Worshipping Khorne leads to summoning deamons. Summoning Deamons leads to the entire world being massacred, and I'd rather not be another skull on Khorne's throne, so please stop.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/02/25 02:35:45


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


 Yaraton wrote:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Jeez, Yaraton. Try looking in a mirror. You're calling for public figures to be lynched without trial. You're basically advocating murder. And yet I'm the bigoted, offensive one?

You post about Russia and Russians, I posted my personal opinion about the top of Russian "elite". How the hell am I exactly "bigoted"?

I...think you're confusing me with someone else. I've largely been on Russia's side in this debate. Ask Iron Captain, Baron or AlmightyWalrus. If I'm being "bigoted" ( ) against anyone, its against Ukrainians and gak stirring European bureaucrats, not Russians.
Well, since you've asked so nicely, I sure will. I will go through all 171 pages of this topic and pick all your posts which I find offensive.

You do realise that you can just filter all my posts through this entire thread, don't you? You have no excuse. You accused me of bigotry, yet you cannot cite one example. You saw that I was disagreeing with your opinion on Putin, and jumped to conclusions without bothering to actually research my positions and opinions through this thread. (whatever he is, I don't think he should be murdered. If he's a criminal, he should be prosecuted and jailed according to the Rule of Law).

Franky, you're using ad hominem and flinging accusations of bigotry at anyone who disagrees with you. And besides, "offense" is subjective. Offense is always taken, never given. Personally I think calling for the extra-judicial murder of public figures is extremely offensive, and quite possibly illegal.


You're still ignoring Alpharius and being rude and abusive, so I'm done. If anyone is trolling here, its you. Welcome to my block list.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/02/25 02:37:30


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Wyrmalla wrote:
Meanwhile Ukraine's Eurovision entry. The subject's the Soviet deportation of Crimean Tartars in 1944. ...A step up from Poland's "Slavic girls are hot" song from last year IIRC.

Poland's song was great. Everyone knows Slavic girls are the hottest girls.
Ukraine's song is garbage. Aside from it being just a bad song and a bad performance, the text is also clearly political (which is not okay at Eurovision ) and hypocritical. No one really cares about Crimean Tatars. Everyone, including Ukraine, hates them (And lets not forget that Ukrainians played their fair share in the deportations). They are just being used as political tools now.
To counteract this, I now vote for Russia sending in this song:



Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/02/25 02:50:37


Post by: LordofHats


 Yaraton wrote:
First, if you don't know something about a historical event because you are too young, you shouldn't try to voice you opinion, especially when it comes to things that may offend somebody?


That's not how history works. In fact, first hand witnesses taken alone with no supporting evidence/testimony are in fact some of the worst evidence you can have. EDIT: Actually a really good exercise on this that can be extrapolated from the confusing interviews of Susan Hamlin/Hamilton (Interviewers couldn't agree on her name )

parallel between the historical events, how you suppose to have a conversation about the historical events?


The first thing any historian will tell you is that parallelism is a dubious method of analysis that generally relies on boatloads of logical fallacies to get anywhere

Putin has a lot to do with that fething "ukraine" that still unfortunately exists.


That seems like a kind of offensive statement and maybe a little bit bigoted.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/02/26 12:00:29


Post by: Yaraton





A bunch of young neo-Nazis showed up at a City hall of Belozersk city (ukraine) and tried to impeach the mayor by yelling for him to get out of the building. When the mayor and some of his City hall workers did, one of chief yellers got punched by the mayor (the fat arse at 1:02) and after that "AZOV Civil Corp" (AZOV - is the most famous of neo-Nazi volunteer battalions) and their parents started telling on cameras that they came for "a peaceful demonstration".

Better quality video:





Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/02/26 21:27:25


Post by: BaronIveagh


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35671976

Yes, because Russians would never vote against officials they're cross with. It's clearly the west plotting against Russia, from inside the Russian people's own heads!


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/02/26 22:34:27


Post by: Ustrello


Russia is the last country to produce propaganda, they would never stoop to the level of the 5th column


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/02/27 00:53:23


Post by: Wyrmalla


Because there's seriously a chance that Putin won't be in for this xth term as Prime Minister/ President (same thing to him, whoever takes the other role's a puppet)? He'll be in those positions for the rest of his life, or till its decided that he'll move off to his mansion and own half the Russian economy.

Wonder how many of the opposition he'll have thrown in prison/ killed this time around?


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/02/27 00:55:01


Post by: Iron_Captain


 BaronIveagh wrote:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35671976

Yes, because Russians would never vote against officials they're cross with. It's clearly the west plotting against Russia, from inside the Russian people's own heads!

No, it is the West plotting against Russia by supporting shady liberast groups and interfering in Russia's political processes, nevermind that is exactly what Russia does in the West (Go Trump! Yay Brexit!)
But regardless, foreigners should be kept away as completely as possible. This is Russian politics, for Russians. Not for foreigners. Foreigners smell funny (and want to destroy Russia).


 Ustrello wrote:
Russia is the last country to produce propaganda, they would never stoop to the level of the 5th column

Sarcasm?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Wyrmalla wrote:
Because there's seriously a chance that Putin won't be in for this xth term as Prime Minister/ President (same thing to him, whoever takes the other role's a puppet)? He'll be in those positions for the rest of his life, or till its decided that he'll move off to his mansion and own half the Russian economy.

Wonder how many of the opposition he'll have thrown in prison/ killed this time around?

I don't think any will be killed, that has never happened before. There are probably going to be some in prison though, most likely because of holding illegal protests. Not that it matters, those are the kind of politicians Russians would never vote for anyways. The only politicians Russians are going to vote for are:
1. Putin
2. Putin
3. Whomever Putin says to vote for.
4. Commies
5. Vladimir "take Alaska back" Zhirinovsky

Let us just hope Putin wins again. Not only is he one of the best leaders in Russian history, he is also one of the least crazy popular politicians. If Putin doesn't run, let us hope Shoigu will. Shoigu is a nice guy (would also be special seeing as that he'd be the first Asian leader of Russia ever).


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/02/27 02:50:08


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Iron_Captain wrote:

5. Vladimir "take Alaska back" Zhirinovsky


Did they learn nothing from Operation Anchorage...????

Sure, it's fun at first, but then you wake up to some giant robot kicking the turret off your tank like a football.




Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/02/27 03:28:09


Post by: Ustrello


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:

5. Vladimir "take Alaska back" Zhirinovsky


Did they learn nothing from Operation Anchorage...????

Sure, it's fun at first, but then you wake up to some giant robot kicking the turret off your tank like a football.




Democracy is the essence of good. Communism, the very definition of evil.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/02/27 06:17:42


Post by: Yaraton


 BaronIveagh wrote:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35671976

Yes, because Russians would never vote against officials they're cross with. It's clearly the west plotting against Russia, from inside the Russian people's own heads!


Oh boo-hoo. US spent 5 billion dollars officially which they were ready to admit on the "ukranian influence":




Giving that a lot of "non-government" organizations in Russia are directly financed from abroad there is a high chance somebody is going to use them for anti-Russian propaganda.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Wyrmalla wrote:

Wonder how many of the opposition he'll have thrown in prison/ killed this time around?


If we are talking about the ones on the CIA and State Department payroll, I hope all of them.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/02/27 07:04:34


Post by: Ustrello


I mean we all pretty much know it was russia that shot down MH17 but here is another report about it

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2016/02/23/53rd-report-en/


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/02/27 12:06:30


Post by: Yaraton


 Ustrello wrote:
I mean we all pretty much know it was russia that shot down MH17 but here is another report about it

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2016/02/23/53rd-report-en/


Bellingcat uses open source and social media investigation to investigate a variety of subjects, from Mexican drug lords to conflicts being fought across the world. Bellingcat brings together contributors who specialise in open source and social media investigation, and creates guides and case studies so others may learn to do the same."]


..And a bunch of articles in Russian written by ukranian nationalists and "internet" experts. That's you proof?

Brown Moses Media and Eliot Higgins: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliot_Higgins

And the Atlantic Council he works for: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Council Which is basically just one of the CIA private research centers.

.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ukrainian Nazis are shooting at a police checkpoint near Donetsk. The local driver has really good reflexes and a lot of luck.




Of course OSCE which is supposed to monitor the ceasefire didn't report anything.





Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/02/27 13:10:55


Post by: Ketara


 Ustrello wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:

5. Vladimir "take Alaska back" Zhirinovsky


Did they learn nothing from Operation Anchorage...????

Sure, it's fun at first, but then you wake up to some giant robot kicking the turret off your tank like a football.




Democracy is the essence of good. Communism, the very definition of evil.


BETTER DEAD THAN RED.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/02/27 14:49:35


Post by: Wyrmalla


 Yaraton wrote:


If we are talking about the ones on the CIA and State Department payroll, I hope all of them.


Because in the Russia the population's made up of people who support the current regime, and those the regime's enemy's shipped in from abroad. Not a single native born Russia has voted against Putin's government ever. There is in fact no opposition parties at all, or if they do exist they are made up entirely of strawmen.
Spoiler:



Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/02/27 15:45:01


Post by: Ustrello


 Yaraton wrote:
 Ustrello wrote:
I mean we all pretty much know it was russia that shot down MH17 but here is another report about it

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2016/02/23/53rd-report-en/


Bellingcat uses open source and social media investigation to investigate a variety of subjects, from Mexican drug lords to conflicts being fought across the world. Bellingcat brings together contributors who specialise in open source and social media investigation, and creates guides and case studies so others may learn to do the same."]


..And a bunch of articles in Russian written by ukranian nationalists and "internet" experts. That's you proof?

Brown Moses Media and Eliot Higgins: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliot_Higgins

And the Atlantic Council he works for: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Council Which is basically just one of the CIA private research centers.

.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ukrainian Nazis are shooting at a police checkpoint near Donetsk. The local driver has really good reflexes and a lot of luck.




Of course OSCE which is supposed to monitor the ceasefire didn't report anything.





I mean the sources are better than the photoshopped pictures RT used, but I guess that was a CIA plot also.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/02/27 19:36:12


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Wyrmalla wrote:
 Yaraton wrote:


If we are talking about the ones on the CIA and State Department payroll, I hope all of them.


Because in the Russia the population's made up of people who support the current regime, and those the regime's enemy's shipped in from abroad. Not a single native born Russia has voted against Putin's government ever. There is in fact no opposition parties at all, or if they do exist they are made up entirely of strawmen.
Spoiler:


I really need a sarcasm detector app or something like that... I am normally pretty good at picking up sarcasm, even on the internet, but Poe's Law is just too strong in this thread
This was sarcastic, right?


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/02/27 21:08:41


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Iron_Captain wrote:

I really need a sarcasm detector app or something like that...


Mine buried the needle on that one.

If this Twinkie were the normal amount of sarcasm in a post in this thread, that post would be a Twinkie... thirty-five feet long, weighing approximately six hundred pounds.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/02/27 22:59:22


Post by: Wyrmalla


I go to other forums for actual news and/or proper discussion. Dakka's OT current event threads are for popcorn eating and occasional bear poking.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/02/27 23:28:33


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Wyrmalla wrote:
Dakka's OT current event threads are for popcorn eating and occasional bear poking.


You should not poke bears in Russian threads...




Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/02/28 00:09:21


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Wyrmalla wrote:
Dakka's OT current event threads are for popcorn eating and occasional bear poking.


You should not poke bears in Russian threads...


What'd you mean? This thread's about Ukraine, and there ain't no Russians there. No sir, not a single one, honestly!


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/02/28 01:22:02


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Wyrmalla wrote:
 Yaraton wrote:


If we are talking about the ones on the CIA and State Department payroll, I hope all of them.


Because in the Russia the population's made up of people who support the current regime, and those the regime's enemy's shipped in from abroad. Not a single native born Russia has voted against Putin's government ever. There is in fact no opposition parties at all, or if they do exist they are made up entirely of strawmen.
Spoiler:


I really need a sarcasm detector app or something like that... I am normally pretty good at picking up sarcasm, even on the internet, but Poe's Law is just too strong in this thread
This was sarcastic, right?


Watch Geek and Sundrys YouTube series for Paranoia.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/01 06:13:50


Post by: Agiel


 Yaraton wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35671976

Yes, because Russians would never vote against officials they're cross with. It's clearly the west plotting against Russia, from inside the Russian people's own heads!


Oh boo-hoo. US spent 5 billion dollars officially which they were ready to admit on the "ukranian influence":


Five billion dollars over the 25 years since Ukraine was an independent country, coming out to 200 mil a year; almost certainly chump change compared to what Putin was spending to keep Ukraine under it's thumb (for instance, some estimates of the Yanukovych mansion go up to 300 mil). And a not insignificant sum (to the tune of $80 million) was spent as part of activities relating to Nunn-Lugar Co-operative Threat Reduction, that had it not taken place would at least have made Putin think twice about sending in his little green men.

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/mar/19/facebook-posts/united-states-spent-5-billion-ukraine-anti-governm/



Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/01 06:33:29


Post by: Tyran


Agiel wrote:
 Yaraton wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35671976

Yes, because Russians would never vote against officials they're cross with. It's clearly the west plotting against Russia, from inside the Russian people's own heads!


Oh boo-hoo. US spent 5 billion dollars officially which they were ready to admit on the "ukranian influence":


Five billion dollars over the 25 years since Ukraine was an independent country, coming out to 200 mil a year; almost certainly chump change compared to what Putin was spending to keep Ukraine under it's thumb (for instance, some estimates of the Yanukovych mansion go up to 300 mil). And a not insignificant sum (to the tune of $80 million) was spent as part of activities relating to Nunn-Lugar Co-operative Threat Reduction, that had it not taken place would at least have made Putin think twice about sending in his little green men.

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/mar/19/facebook-posts/united-states-spent-5-billion-ukraine-anti-governm/



I fail to see how Yunakovych's mansion has anything to do with Russian spending on Ukraine. The guy was an Oligarch who lived of Ukrainian money.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/01 14:51:08


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


 Tyran wrote:
Agiel wrote:
 Yaraton wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35671976

Yes, because Russians would never vote against officials they're cross with. It's clearly the west plotting against Russia, from inside the Russian people's own heads!


Oh boo-hoo. US spent 5 billion dollars officially which they were ready to admit on the "ukranian influence":


Five billion dollars over the 25 years since Ukraine was an independent country, coming out to 200 mil a year; almost certainly chump change compared to what Putin was spending to keep Ukraine under it's thumb (for instance, some estimates of the Yanukovych mansion go up to 300 mil). And a not insignificant sum (to the tune of $80 million) was spent as part of activities relating to Nunn-Lugar Co-operative Threat Reduction, that had it not taken place would at least have made Putin think twice about sending in his little green men.

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/mar/19/facebook-posts/united-states-spent-5-billion-ukraine-anti-governm/



I fail to see how Yunakovych's mansion has anything to do with Russian spending on Ukraine. The guy was an Oligarch who lived of Ukrainian money.


And now they have a new Oligarch living off Ukrainian money. The King is dead. long live the King.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/04 09:26:52


Post by: Wyrmalla


Kazakhstan: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!

After Ukraine, Kazakhstan wary of ethnic Russians broaching autonomy


In the city of Kostanay in northern Kazakhstan, the ribbon of St George, a black-and-orange symbol of resurgent Russian patriotism that was adopted by separatists in Ukraine, hangs from every second car's rear-view mirror.

Most people in this town and the surrounding region are ethnic Russians, distinct from the mainly Muslim ethnic Kazakhs who are in the majority nationwide and control the main levers of power in this oil-producing former Soviet state.

Demographically, the region therefore has much in common with Ukraine's Crimea peninsula and the eastern Donbass region, whose majority Russian-speaking populations pulled out of Kiev's orbit with help from Moscow.


There is no separatist rebellion in northern Kazakhstan, but the ethnic Russians, who make up more than a fifth of the country's 18 million population, are feeling increasingly insecure and some sympathize with the separatists in Ukraine.

[break]

Some ethnic Russians in the region have gone further, and fought alongside the separatists in Ukraine.

Last February, a Kostanay court ordered the detention of two people who had fought in Ukraine. It is illegal under Kazakh law to participate in armed conflicts abroad.



Spoiler:




Though seriously, the chances of the Russians taking Kaz is a bit unlikely. Sure it has great mineral deposits, but the government's already under their boot. Unless the people pull a Euromaidan I don't see the point. Pulling a Crimea would just mean more mouths to feed.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/04 15:49:33


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Wyrmalla wrote:
Kazakhstan: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live!

After Ukraine, Kazakhstan wary of ethnic Russians broaching autonomy


In the city of Kostanay in northern Kazakhstan, the ribbon of St George, a black-and-orange symbol of resurgent Russian patriotism that was adopted by separatists in Ukraine, hangs from every second car's rear-view mirror.

Most people in this town and the surrounding region are ethnic Russians, distinct from the mainly Muslim ethnic Kazakhs who are in the majority nationwide and control the main levers of power in this oil-producing former Soviet state.

Demographically, the region therefore has much in common with Ukraine's Crimea peninsula and the eastern Donbass region, whose majority Russian-speaking populations pulled out of Kiev's orbit with help from Moscow.


There is no separatist rebellion in northern Kazakhstan, but the ethnic Russians, who make up more than a fifth of the country's 18 million population, are feeling increasingly insecure and some sympathize with the separatists in Ukraine.

[break]

Some ethnic Russians in the region have gone further, and fought alongside the separatists in Ukraine.

Last February, a Kostanay court ordered the detention of two people who had fought in Ukraine. It is illegal under Kazakh law to participate in armed conflicts abroad.



Spoiler:




Though seriously, the chances of the Russians taking Kaz is a bit unlikely. Sure it has great mineral deposits, but the government's already under their boot. Unless the people pull a Euromaidan I don't see the point. Pulling a Crimea would just mean more mouths to feed.

Kazakhstan is pretty much safe, unless they suddenly start pissing Russia off or start infringing on Russian minority rights. Not that I see that happening anytime soon. Much of Kazakhstan's elite is ethnically Russian.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/04 23:42:17


Post by: Wyrmalla


The elite's Russian, but the country was formed, seemingly like many Soviet states (presumably intentionally) from a Russian centric north and the rural Kazakhs. The Russians themselves have a large German/ central European population among them as well (not that that matters to Moscow). Besides the cultural difference, there's then the disparity over the economy given the government's not too into building infrastructure besides for industry.

Meh, we'll see what happens I guess. Kazakhstan isn't the powerhouse Ukraine was. The army's not too bad, but its not as if there's T-64s laying about every few paces. I seem to remember the subject was raised here years ago, and at the time the concern was that the rest of the world wouldn't abide Russia to invade the country. Sure they're under Moscow's thumb right now, but allowing the Russians a monopoly over all those minerals would allow them to blackmail the market into lifting sanctions. ...Just where do you think all your mobile phone and computer components come from?

Realistically though we're in a state of pre-WWII style appeasement when it comes to Moscow unfortunately.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/05 08:24:14


Post by: Tyran


It's expected. Ukraine has been mostly forgotten, specially thanks to the mess that is the Syrian Civil War, in which, while NATO and Russia have different goals, they have been cooperating against common enemies.

And that war comes with the problem of refuges, so I imagine that the average European couldn't care less about Ukraine at this point.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/07 05:44:31


Post by: Yaraton


Ukrainian people do what they do the best:




Are you allowed to stone American embassy in Baghdad? Anyone wants to go and check for himself?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Wyrmalla wrote:

Because in the Russia the population's made up of people who support the current regime, and those the regime's enemy's shipped in from abroad. Not a single native born Russia has voted against Putin's government ever. There is in fact no opposition parties at all, or if they do exist they are made up entirely of strawmen.


It's one thing to vote against/not vote at all for Putin and another to yup on every corner on money that come from abroad. I bet you never heard of CIA paying "dissidents" before. Anywhere.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Agiel wrote:
 Yaraton wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35671976

Yes, because Russians would never vote against officials they're cross with. It's clearly the west plotting against Russia, from inside the Russian people's own heads!


Oh boo-hoo. US spent 5 billion dollars officially which they were ready to admit on the "ukranian influence":


Five billion dollars over the 25 years since Ukraine was an independent country, coming out to 200 mil a year; almost certainly chump change compared to what Putin was spending to keep Ukraine under it's thumb (for instance, some estimates of the Yanukovych mansion go up to 300 mil). And a not insignificant sum (to the tune of $80 million) was spent as part of activities relating to Nunn-Lugar Co-operative Threat Reduction, that had it not taken place would at least have made Putin think twice about sending in his little green men.



5 billion dollars officially. I ma pretty sure it was twice if not thrice that unofficially. Now if kindly tell us how much Russia gave anti-Russian Kravchuk, anti-Russian Leonid Kuchma, anti-Russian Yushchenko and corrupted Yanukovych personally so we would compare it would be dandy. Yanukovych build his mansion on money he has stolen from ukraine, he was an oligarch before he became a president and had a lot ways to steal when he became the president with Russia supplying with extra money.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Wyrmalla wrote:


Though seriously, the chances of the Russians taking Kaz is a bit unlikely. Sure it has great mineral deposits, but the government's already under their boot. Unless the people pull a Euromaidan I don't see the point. Pulling a Crimea would just mean more mouths to feed.


Here is your answer: "Most people in this town and the surrounding region are ethnic Russians, distinct from the mainly Muslim ethnic Kazakhs who are in the majority nationwide and control the main levers of power in this oil-producing former Soviet state. "
If a country tell you that you occupant even though all you life you worked for your money as did your parents and grandparents, there is high chance that somebody will take up arms. Sadly, Putin is coward and a traitor and he will never support ethnic Russians in Kazahia. So the upraise will most likely happen once he is hanged on lamp post.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/07 22:21:29


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Yaraton wrote:

It's one thing to vote against/not vote at all for Putin and another to yup on every corner on money that come from abroad. I bet you never heard of CIA paying "dissidents" before. Anywhere.


Actually... yes. Though, at the time, the KGB was also doing it, all through Central and South America. Columbia had guys who would collect a paycheck from the CIA one week and the KGB the next.

China does the same thing in North America these days. They're much more open handed lending money at low interest rates to Native American nations, just to stir that particular pot, than US based banks. Russia really doesn't have the money anymore to deal in large scale international bribery like in the old days.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Yaraton wrote:
Ukrainian monkeys do what they do the best:


Your bigotry is showing.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/08 21:56:29


Post by: Yaraton


 BaronIveagh wrote:

Actually... yes. Though, at the time, the KGB was also doing it, all through Central and South America. Columbia had guys who would collect a paycheck from the CIA one week and the KGB the next.

China does the same thing in North America these days. They're much more open handed lending money at low interest rates to Native American nations, just to stir that particular pot, than US based banks. Russia really doesn't have the money anymore to deal in large scale international bribery like in the old days.

And what exactly I was disputing that you had to say "Actually... yes."? I was talking about some Russian members of "opposition" being on CIA payroll. Nothing else. You are not engaging in "whataboutism", ain't you? For that would be ironic.

Your bigotry is showing.


I've only called those uncivilized Russophobic ukrainians who throw stones and paint "monkeys". With your complaint, you've made them all equal. Congrats.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/08 23:09:53


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Yaraton wrote:

And what exactly I was disputing that you had to say "Actually... yes."?


 Yaraton wrote:
I bet you never heard of CIA paying "dissidents" before. Anywhere.



 Yaraton wrote:

I've only called those uncivilized Russophobic ukrainians who throw stones and paint "monkeys". With your complaint, you've made them all equal.


I'm guessing English is not your first language (despite supposedly posting from Canada) but you had already done that by your word choice and sentence structure.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/08 23:26:16


Post by: Grimmor


 Yaraton wrote:
It's one thing to vote against/not vote at all for Putin and another to yup on every corner on money that come from abroad. I bet you never heard of CIA paying "dissidents" before. Anywhere.


Back during the Cold War we did more than pay them, we gave them weapons and supplies, a fair chunk of the insurgents in the Middle East back then had weaponry given to them by the CIA.

As a concrete example the Bay of Pigs. Yes it was a horrible disaster, but we trained, armed and freakin transported them.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/08 23:35:48


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


 Grimmor wrote:
 Yaraton wrote:
It's one thing to vote against/not vote at all for Putin and another to yup on every corner on money that come from abroad. I bet you never heard of CIA paying "dissidents" before. Anywhere.


Back during the Cold War we did more than pay them, we gave them weapons and supplies, a fair chunk of the insurgents in the Middle East back then had weaponry given to them by the CIA.

As a concrete example the Bay of Pigs. Yes it was a horrible disaster, but we trained, armed and freakin transported them.




I don't know why you guys are still bothering with him, he's just insulting you in every thread.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/08 23:43:33


Post by: Yaraton


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Yaraton wrote:

And what exactly I was disputing that you had to say "Actually... yes."?


 Yaraton wrote:
I bet you never heard of CIA paying "dissidents" before. Anywhere.



 Yaraton wrote:

I've only called those uncivilized Russophobic ukrainians who throw stones and paint "monkeys". With your complaint, you've made them all equal.


I'm guessing English is not your first language (despite supposedly posting from Canada) but you had already done that by your word choice and sentence structure.


Well first of all, Canada has two official languages, so I could be a Francophone. Second, you just quote me without adding anything of your own. I am done talking to you.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/08 23:53:19


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

I don't know why you guys are still bothering with him, he's just insulting you in every thread.

Yeah...
Also, do take note of the flag in his signature.
Also, he insulted V. V. Putin! He should be in jail


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/08 23:55:15


Post by: Grimmor


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
 Grimmor wrote:
 Yaraton wrote:
It's one thing to vote against/not vote at all for Putin and another to yup on every corner on money that come from abroad. I bet you never heard of CIA paying "dissidents" before. Anywhere.


Back during the Cold War we did more than pay them, we gave them weapons and supplies, a fair chunk of the insurgents in the Middle East back then had weaponry given to them by the CIA.

As a concrete example the Bay of Pigs. Yes it was a horrible disaster, but we trained, armed and freakin transported them.




I don't know why you guys are still bothering with him, he's just insulting you in every thread.


Some of us like poking bears......


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/09 00:04:37


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Grimmor wrote:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
 Grimmor wrote:
 Yaraton wrote:
It's one thing to vote against/not vote at all for Putin and another to yup on every corner on money that come from abroad. I bet you never heard of CIA paying "dissidents" before. Anywhere.


Back during the Cold War we did more than pay them, we gave them weapons and supplies, a fair chunk of the insurgents in the Middle East back then had weaponry given to them by the CIA.

As a concrete example the Bay of Pigs. Yes it was a horrible disaster, but we trained, armed and freakin transported them.




I don't know why you guys are still bothering with him, he's just insulting you in every thread.


Some of us like poking bears......

But wise men know better than to poke the bear.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/09 00:19:49


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


If Yaraton is a bear, then he's a de-fanged, de-clawed Bear. Iron Captain is the only dangerous bear here.

And this must feel like a vacation for you IC, with someone else taking over as the resident punching bag.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/09 01:27:40


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Yaraton wrote:

Well first of all, Canada has two official languages, so I could be a Francophone.


I highly doubt it based on how you insulted the French earlier.



 Yaraton wrote:

Second, you just quote me without adding anything of your own. I am done talking to you.


You asked what I was responding to. I posted the quote I was responding to.

If you're not smart enough to work that out on your own, there's not much I can do to help you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Iron_Captain wrote:

But wise men know better than to poke the bear.


Indeed!




Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/09 01:44:04


Post by: Wyrmalla


Looks like Azov are finally taking their brick out for a ride. ...It weights 41 tonnes.



More to follow when someone shoots with a modern HEAT round. For a T series derived APC, its on the light side actually. The Israeli one weighs 60 tonnes, damn that inferior Ukrainian ERA (must be all the extra swastikas)!


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/09 15:44:13


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Yaraton wrote:

Are you allowed to stone American embassy in Baghdad? Anyone wants to go and check for himself?


Well, you run with dogs, you get fleas. You run hilariously obvious show trials, you get protestors.

I admit i missed what was going on that they were protesting until I noticed one had a picture of Nadia Savchenko, who I will happily cheer on.



http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35760985


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/09 15:56:37


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


The dubious legality of the trial and the almost 100% certainty that it won't be a fair trial aside, is the allegation against her credible? Did she kill Russian journalists? Does she deny it?



Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/09 16:21:41


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
The dubious legality of the trial and the almost 100% certainty that it won't be a fair trial aside, is the allegation against her credible? Did she kill Russian journalists? Does she deny it?



There's this issue where she was already captured before they were killed. She denies involvement.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/09 20:28:13


Post by: Iron_Captain


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
The dubious legality of the trial and the almost 100% certainty that it won't be a fair trial aside, is the allegation against her credible? Did she kill Russian journalists? Does she deny it?



There's this issue where she was already captured before they were killed. She denies involvement.

Actually, the charge against her is not killing the journalists (and 5 other civilians) personally, but rather that she relayed their position to Ukrainian artillery, who then shelled the area with mortars. She was captured only one hour before the bombardment, so she could have very well informed Ukrainian forces before that. It is a strange case because she was actually transferred to Russia. Normally Russia is perfectly fine with letting the seperatists deal with captured war criminals.

In any case, whether guilty or not, Savchenko deserves no symphathy. She fought with the neo-nazis of Aidar battallion. The Aidar Battalion is notorious for committing war crimes (and has been accused of doing so not only by the seperatists or Russia, but also by Amnesty International, the Ukrainian governor of Lugansk Oblast and the Ukrainian Parliament).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
If Yaraton is a bear, then he's a de-fanged, de-clawed Bear. Iron Captain is the only dangerous bear here.

And this must feel like a vacation for you IC, with someone else taking over as the resident punching bag.


I like Yaraton.


 Wyrmalla wrote:
Looks like Azov are finally taking their brick out for a ride. ...It weights 41 tonnes.



More to follow when someone shoots with a modern HEAT round. For a T series derived APC, its on the light side actually. The Israeli one weighs 60 tonnes, damn that inferior Ukrainian ERA (must be all the extra swastikas)!

It looks like they made it out of garbage dumpsters...


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/09 20:31:45


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


 Iron_Captain wrote:
In any case, whether guilty or not, Savchenko deserves no symphathy. She fought with the neo-nazis of Aidar battallion. The Aidar Battalion is notorious for committing war crimes (and has been accused of doing so not only by the seperatists or Russia, but also by Amnesty International, the Ukrainian governor of Lugansk Oblast and the Ukrainian Parliament).



Feth me.



Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/09 21:38:56


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Iron_Captain wrote:
The Aidar Battalion is notorious for committing war crimes (and has been accused of doing so not only by the seperatists or Russia, but also by Amnesty International, the Ukrainian governor of Lugansk Oblast and the Ukrainian Parliament


Yes, but no evidence has been brought of anything more serious than unlawful detention and racketeering, which, frankly, should come as no surprise at all. Amnesty looked into the accusations of more serious crimes, including the murder accusation, and found that there was little to no proof.



A minor detail he's leaving out: the warcrimes Aidar supposedly committed started 3 months after her capture, according to Amnesty. They took on a large number of new recruits after they pushed into Luhansk to replace casualties and it looks like some seriously bad elements got involved.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/10 00:30:06


Post by: The Home Nuggeteer


Russian empire?

Please, I pray every day.

If you are russian and reading this please urge your leaders to destroy the west, we no longer deserve to exist.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/10 03:40:40


Post by: Yaraton


 The Home Nuggeteer wrote:
Russian empire?

Please, I pray every day.

If you are russian and reading this please urge your leaders to destroy the west, we no longer deserve to exist.


There are three things I find wrong with your statement.

1. No one in Russian wants to build a "Russian Empire". If anything, ordinary people want to build a giant wall to stop the immigrants coming from the tomato republics and ...stans of the former USSR to Russia. I bet if Trump was Russian he would have no problem becoming a president in Russia.
2. No one wants to destroy the West in Russia. In the last 20 years the Russians were so much brainwashed, most of the population wants to live like USA. They don't like USA because they feel they are being treated like eternal enemies no matter how much their government wants to lick the West.
3. Why do you hate freedom?




Stay classy, ukraine!
At 00:29 the sign in the center reads "Death to Russia!" and the next one on the right reads "Russia will fall and freedom will meet you at the entrance". I would pay this bunch just to show them on Russian TV so people in Russia finally stopped that idiotic nonsense about "Slavic brotherhood" and started to see "ukrainians" for what they really are. But why pay when they do it for free?


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/10 03:55:40


Post by: Ustrello


Well considering russia invaded ukraine and annexed crimea, I am pretty sure their hatred towards russia is pretty understandable.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/10 04:25:46


Post by: Yaraton


 Ustrello wrote:
Well considering russia invaded ukraine and annexed crimea, I am pretty sure their hatred towards russia is pretty understandable.


I've missed that part in the world news where "Russia invaded ukraine". Must be the local news on closed-circuit television in an American psychiatric hospital. Coinciding that Crimea was a Russian territory that was illegally and temporary occupied by so-called "ukraine", it wasn't a crime when Russia returned it, since it's population voted not to be under the Nazi government anymore.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/10 04:28:29


Post by: Ustrello


So close if you had one more lie in that sentence it would of been a truth, because that is how it works right? Even number of lies and it makes a truth.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/10 04:44:51


Post by: oldravenman3025


 Wyrmalla wrote:
Looks like Azov are finally taking their brick out for a ride. ...It weights 41 tonnes.



More to follow when someone shoots with a modern HEAT round. For a T series derived APC, its on the light side actually. The Israeli one weighs 60 tonnes, damn that inferior Ukrainian ERA (must be all the extra swastikas)!



Now I need a scale model of it for a new Imperial Guard IFV.


And I shouldn't have used Google Translate to read that article:


Development of the Ukrainian military after the presentation praised the deputy chairman of the Russian Government Dmitry Rogozin, who is in charge, in particular, defense contracts and military-technical cooperation. "Military-industrial complex of Ukraine has made innovation a new tank out of dumpsters," - wrote the deputy prime minister on Twitter.



Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/10 07:36:14


Post by: Yaraton


 Ustrello wrote:
So close if you had one more lie in that sentence it would of been a truth, because that is how it works right? Even number of lies and it makes a truth.


Feel free to correct me with facts.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/10 07:54:18


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


 Yaraton wrote:
 Ustrello wrote:
So close if you had one more lie in that sentence it would of been a truth, because that is how it works right? Even number of lies and it makes a truth.


Feel free to correct me with facts.


There's this detail where Sevastopol was part of Ukraine. I don't care how illegitimate you feel that was, the fact remains that Crimea was a part of Ukraine, then little green men popped up and now it isn't. Hence "invasion".

Further, a referendum organised and performed so rapidly after a foreign power that has a vested interest in the outcome of said referendum shows up has little to no legitimacy. It's entirely possible that everyone did in fact vote to leave Ukraine, but the reliability of the referendum is suspect at best.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/10 08:58:57


Post by: Wyrmalla


Not to drag myself into the bull, but FYI, when it came to what land was annexed from Ukraine by Russia, it had nothing to do with who actually supported the Russians. Ack, need to find a map. Pro-Ukrainian or Pro-Russian sentiments hardly match which areas remained with Ukraine and which were taken.

We'll just ignore that internationally only Russia and its allies acknowledge the results of the vote in Crimea. Ignore too all those little interntional investigations which pulled up vote rigging too.

...But wait, what's the point in mentioning all of this? Its old news and has already been discussed to death and agreed upon in this thread and elsewhere. Its a minority who chose to ignore the facts.




Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/10 09:28:01


Post by: Tyran


Well, Crimea was the heart of the Pro-Russian sentiment in Ukraine, has a very large Russian population and was oppressed by Ukraine several times since its creation.
While I doubt the veracity of the referendum, I also doubt that the Crimeans felt anything resembling loyalty to Kiev and at worst simply saw it as a "meet the new boss, same as the old boss" situation.
But regardless of how Crimea felt, it still is an invasion followed by an annexation, so I doubt Kiev appreciates it, although they will have to learn to deal with it.

And there is also the issue of the separatists who have a very blatant military support from Russia (although luckily for them Russia never wanted to conquer Ukraine, otherwise there wouldn't be an Ukraine left).


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/10 09:46:16


Post by: Wyrmalla


As far as support for Russia there was a poll done a few years before the annexation across Ukraine as to Pro-Russian sentiment. It came out as the edges of Crimea being Pro-Russian, others being Pro-Ukrainian. As for central Ukraine there was a similar split, with some areas having more Russian support than those in the now annexed regions.

Realistically the Russians took the area on a trumped up reason. Of course there was Pro-Russian sentiments, but if the Russians were to use that excuse then Ukraine would have been a patchwork of annexed areas instead of a clear cut line. The whole "there's Russians there who need protecting from the evil Pro-European/ anti-puppet government lot" line was bull though. Given that Moscow has used the same excuse for invasion x number of times before kind of makes it a moot point (great though when it doesn't work out and they have to hang their troops out to dry...).

If countries could just annex each other for having a portion of the population having Pro-X leanings or being of X-nationality then... We'll I think Britain'll be having half its colonies back. Shame not every country's putting on the Reich like Russia has then when it comes to aggressive expansion (ooh, and extra fun to bring back the whole analogy to Germany annexation of Europe circa 1930-40s. They used the same reasoning the Russians have).


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/10 09:54:03


Post by: Tyran


Well, Britain has the problem that most of its former colonies are an ocean or more away and have proper military forces defending them. Meanwhile Russia is surrounded by weak states that it can easily bully.

Of course the whole national thing is simply an excuse. Crimea was annexed because its naval base.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also a better analogy is the US, which was very unpleasant to plenty of Latin American countries.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/10 10:33:32


Post by: Wyrmalla


Yes, but analogies to the Fascist states I find are more fitting considering the current Russian administration's political ideology and actions. That and we already past the Godwin's Law limit on the first page of this thread years ago.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/10 14:04:45


Post by: Iron_Captain


 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 Yaraton wrote:
 Ustrello wrote:
So close if you had one more lie in that sentence it would of been a truth, because that is how it works right? Even number of lies and it makes a truth.


Feel free to correct me with facts.


There's this detail where Sevastopol was part of Ukraine. I don't care how illegitimate you feel that was, the fact remains that Crimea was a part of Ukraine, then little green men popped up and now it isn't. Hence "invasion".

Further, a referendum organised and performed so rapidly after a foreign power that has a vested interest in the outcome of said referendum shows up has little to no legitimacy. It's entirely possible that everyone did in fact vote to leave Ukraine, but the reliability of the referendum is suspect at best.

Sevastopol was never a part of Ukraine. Never. And no amount of your lies can change that.
I dare you to come to Sevastopol and repeat what you just said in public.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Wyrmalla wrote:
Yes, but analogies to the Fascist states I find are more fitting considering the current Russian administration's political ideology and actions. That and we already past the Godwin's Law limit on the first page of this thread years ago.

Oh God... Would you please stop this trolling? As you said, we already had it on page 1. It wasn't funny then, it is even less funny if you just keep on recycling the same stupid jokes for years. Come up with something new please.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/10 14:36:22


Post by: Wyrmalla


Re: Sevastopol

In May 1997, Russia and Ukraine signed the Peace and Friendship Treaty, ruling out Moscow's territorial claims to Ukraine.[18] A separate agreement established the terms of a long-term lease of land, facilities, and resources in Sevastopol and the Crimea by Russia


Transferred to Ukrainian ownership along with the rest of the region. On a state of lease to Russia, which was renewed and extended as per a number of agreements. So realistically if you were to go there you'd think it was Russian, but rather its like saying someone renting out an office block who paints the walls and puts their logo on the front owns the land the building's on.

And ... The calling the Russian government a bunch of fascists was a joke, but its pernickety to argue over the point which I was making.





Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/10 15:16:44


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


How is the implication that I would get assaulted for pointing out that Sevastopol de jure was Ukrainian territory before the annexation to Russia's advantage? That'd seem to imply that Russians are violent thugs; are you a Russophobe?


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/10 16:57:38


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
How is the implication that I would get assaulted for pointing out that Sevastopol de jure was Ukrainian territory before the annexation to Russia's advantage? That'd seem to imply that Russians are violent thugs; are you a Russophobe?


I see Yaraton is having a bad influence on you.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/10 17:01:42


Post by: Ustrello


 Yaraton wrote:
 Ustrello wrote:
So close if you had one more lie in that sentence it would of been a truth, because that is how it works right? Even number of lies and it makes a truth.


Feel free to correct me with facts.


Past 150 pages should do it


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/10 18:45:38


Post by: Vaktathi


 Iron_Captain wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 Yaraton wrote:
 Ustrello wrote:
So close if you had one more lie in that sentence it would of been a truth, because that is how it works right? Even number of lies and it makes a truth.


Feel free to correct me with facts.


There's this detail where Sevastopol was part of Ukraine. I don't care how illegitimate you feel that was, the fact remains that Crimea was a part of Ukraine, then little green men popped up and now it isn't. Hence "invasion".

Further, a referendum organised and performed so rapidly after a foreign power that has a vested interest in the outcome of said referendum shows up has little to no legitimacy. It's entirely possible that everyone did in fact vote to leave Ukraine, but the reliability of the referendum is suspect at best.

Sevastopol was never a part of Ukraine. Never. And no amount of your lies can change that.
I dare you to come to Sevastopol and repeat what you just said in public.

it was internationally recognized as being part of Urkaine for about 20 years...there's a reason Russia had to sign agreements with Ukraine to *lease* port facilities there...

And with little green men walking about with loaded AK-74's and track-suited local enforcers everywhere...and Russian military border controls in place, I don't think any of us will be going there (or would be easily allowed in) any time soon...


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/10 19:10:12


Post by: Tyran


It would be less a problem with Russia and more with the Western powers. I imagine that they wouldn't like us going in a vacation to a place under sanctions.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/10 19:16:06


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


 Tyran wrote:
It would be less a problem with Russia and more with the Western powers. I imagine that they wouldn't like us going in a vacation to a place under sanctions.


Honestly, as a Swede I wouldn't want to be anywhere in Russia right now.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/10 19:19:52


Post by: Wyrmalla


 Tyran wrote:
It would be less a problem with Russia and more with the Western powers. I imagine that they wouldn't like us going in a vacation to a place under sanctions.


I'd hazard not many people are doing border checks in Ukraine these days... If you're caught, and the guards actually care, you either bribe them (as per the Russian standard) or are thrown in a ditch.

The Russians have just dumped their back o' beyond battalions in the area now anyway (I laughed at the TV when I saw them invading Ukraine with BMP-1s and Chechen era armour).


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/10 20:08:51


Post by: Tyran


Well, after a quick investigation there are two ways to get into Crimea. One is through Ukraine, but you will need a special permission.

The other one is through Russia, but that will end with Ukraine considering you an enemy of the state or something.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/10 20:13:53


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Wyrmalla wrote:
Re: Sevastopol

In May 1997, Russia and Ukraine signed the Peace and Friendship Treaty, ruling out Moscow's territorial claims to Ukraine.[18] A separate agreement established the terms of a long-term lease of land, facilities, and resources in Sevastopol and the Crimea by Russia


Transferred to Ukrainian ownership along with the rest of the region. On a state of lease to Russia, which was renewed and extended as per a number of agreements. So realistically if you were to go there you'd think it was Russian, but rather its like saying someone renting out an office block who paints the walls and puts their logo on the front owns the land the building's on.

Crimea is not Ukraine. It was ruled over by Ukraine, but that does not mean it was a part of Ukraine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Vaktathi wrote:

And with little green men walking about with loaded AK-74's and track-suited local enforcers everywhere...and Russian military border controls in place, I don't think any of us will be going there (or would be easily allowed in) any time soon...

No problem. I will get someone to invite you over, so visa won't be a problem. Then you can just get a flight to Moscow and from there to Crimea. The little green men and local militias are long gone, either back home or to Donbass.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
How is the implication that I would get assaulted for pointing out that Sevastopol de jure was Ukrainian territory before the annexation to Russia's advantage? That'd seem to imply that Russians are violent thugs; are you a Russophobe?

Well, if you put it in perspective like that, people might just give you an angry glare and go on. But if you say something like "Sevastopol is Ukraine" then you are bound to greatly upset a lot of people. Russians are not violent, but they are a very passionate and emotional people. And Sevastopol is one of the most nationalistic places in Russia.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/10 20:23:57


Post by: Wyrmalla


Here, let me Google that for you...

"Decree of the Presidium of the USSR Supreme Soviet transferring the Crimea Province from the Russian SFSR to the Ukrainian SSR.

Taking into account the integral character of the economy, the territorial proximity and the close economic and cultural ties between the Crimea Province and the Ukrainian SSR, the Presidium of the USSR Supreme Soviet decrees:

To approve the joint presentation of the Presidium of the Russian SFSR Supreme Soviet and the Presidium of the Ukrainian SSR Supreme Soviet on the transfer of the Crimea Province from the Russian SFSR to the Ukrainian SSR."

They actually had to change the law to give Crimea to Ukraine. Youknow, because the Soviet government thought the whole thing was so illegitimate (damn, or is that just the current administration, guess they know better). An a region operated by Ukraine. Ignoring semantics, its part of Ukraine.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/10 20:29:57


Post by: Tyran


Semantics are important in this issue, Crimea is an autonomous republic, so it is separate from both Russia and Ukraine, regardless of who controls it.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/10 20:35:09


Post by: Wyrmalla


And in a poll where less than a third of the people living there (including those without citizenship, i.e. "holidaymakers") somehow 96.77% of the region's total population voted to join Russia.

...Because maths works differently in Putin's Russia. And it doesn't matter how few armed men there were at the voting stations. Real people didn't even fill in most of the ballots anyway.

You could create vote on the subject of "do you want free money" and you still wouldn't have 96.77% of the population vote yes... That was the Russian way of sticking the finger up to the world with their invasion.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/10 20:36:15


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Wyrmalla wrote:
Here, let me Google that for you...

"Decree of the Presidium of the USSR Supreme Soviet transferring the Crimea Province from the Russian SFSR to the Ukrainian SSR.

Taking into account the integral character of the economy, the territorial proximity and the close economic and cultural ties between the Crimea Province and the Ukrainian SSR, the Presidium of the USSR Supreme Soviet decrees:

To approve the joint presentation of the Presidium of the Russian SFSR Supreme Soviet and the Presidium of the Ukrainian SSR Supreme Soviet on the transfer of the Crimea Province from the Russian SFSR to the Ukrainian SSR."

They actually had to change the law to give Crimea to Ukraine. Youknow, because the Soviet government thought the whole thing was so illegitimate. An a region operated by Ukraine. Ignoring semantics, its part of Ukraine.

Crimea was not a part of Ukraine before that law, and it wasn't afterwards. It can't be changed by what is nothing more than a few empty words on a paper signed by an upstart peasant. It was nothing more than a symbolic gesture of Khrushchov towards his favourite republic, and it shouldn't be seen as more than that it was. Ukraine wasn't even a country back then and the results it had after 1991 were unintended.
And you can't ignore semantics. Semantics are important.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/10 20:38:20


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


Oh ffs, you're all arguing past each other. And you're both correct.

Clearly, Crimea and in particular Sevastopol is (or was) a part of Ukraine in a technical, legal sense. Laws were passed, and sovereignty is transferred following the proper channels. (Which was arguably a mistake).

But as I understand it, iron captain is arguing that Crimea/Sevesotopol is Russian in an ethnic, cultural and historical sense. Which is also true. You can pass a law to transfer sovereignty, but you can't legislate to magically change the cultural, ethnic and historical identity of a region.


Its like if we transferred Guernsey island and other British channel islands to French sovereignty in a treaty, and passed it through parliament. The island would be French in a legal and technical sense and France would self evidently have sovereignty, but try telling that to its residents who consider themselves British.

Ditto for the Falkland Islands, or Gibraltar, or Spanish Cueta.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/10 20:43:13


Post by: Co'tor Shas


Well 58.3% ethnicly Russia, according to the 2001 census.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/10 20:47:07


Post by: Wyrmalla


Moscow had a thing about putting the boot down on minorities once the Soviets took over. They wanted to administrate all of their lands effectively. "Well we can't have some upstart republic getting nationalist ideas. How do we fix that? Why, ship half the people to Siberia and move some ethnically Russian peasants in. What do they care where they live? They're peasants.". Failing that they just formed the states up of parts of the original ethnicity and parts which were Russian.

What's the end result? Any time the people get restless about independence then there's your excuse to say no, or your pool to take your riot beaters from. If we're talking current events Kazakhstan is having the same issue right now as it seeks more autonomy from Russia.

So if the bull claim that Russia's doing its best for its people has any validity at all, they only have that excuse in the first place because they shipped their people there. "Russians feel threatened". ...They're only there in the first place because you put them there so you could shout that when needed. They were annexing land with that reason back in the 40s...

Oh, and to Godwin the thread again, the Nazis did the exact same thing.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/10 21:00:26


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Wyrmalla wrote:
Moscow had a thing about putting the boot down on minorities once the Soviets took over. They wanted to administrate all of their lands effectively. "Well we can't have some upstart republic getting nationalist ideas. How do we fix that? Why, ship half the people to Siberia and move some ethnically Russian peasants in. What do they care where they live? They're peasants.". Failing that they just formed the states up of parts of the original ethnicity and parts which were Russian.

What's the end result? Any time the people get restless about independence then there's your excuse to say no, or your pool to take your riot beaters from. If we're talking current events Kazakhstan is having the same issue right now as it seeks more autonomy from Russia.

So if the bull claim that Russia's doing its best for its people has any validity at all, they only have that excuse in the first place because they shipped their people there. "Russians feel threatened". ...They're only there in the first place because you put them there so you could shout that when needed. They were annexing land with that reason back in the 40s...

Oh, and to Godwin the thread again, the Nazis did the exact same thing.

While the Soviets did at times repress ethnic nationalism (including ethnic Russian nationalism, mind you), they encouraged it at other times. The way you put it is so hyperbolic and black and white it becomes entirely false.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/10 21:10:39


Post by: Tyran


From what I know, it was great to be an ethnic minority as long as you were a recognized one, otherwise it was hell.

This had the funny effect of small minorities, like the Ossetians, loving the Soviet Union, while larger ethnic groups, like the Georgians, were oppressed.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/10 21:22:08


Post by: Wyrmalla


Well you can barely count the number of times Russia's gone to war with Georgia in the past 100 years on two hands....


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/10 22:30:50


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Wyrmalla wrote:
Well you can barely count the number of times Russia's gone to war with Georgia in the past 100 years on two hands....

That would indeed be impossible, because it happened only thrice. And the Russian involvement in the Georgian Civil War was actually in support of the Georgian government, so you can't really count that. So two. Altough I suppose that if you take one finger from each hand, you could still count it on two hands.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/11 06:50:25


Post by: Yaraton


 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


There's this detail where Sevastopol was part of Ukraine. I don't care how illegitimate you feel that was, the fact remains that Crimea was a part of Ukraine, then little green men popped up and now it isn't. Hence "invasion".

Further, a referendum organised and performed so rapidly after a foreign power that has a vested interest in the outcome of said referendum shows up has little to no legitimacy. It's entirely possible that everyone did in fact vote to leave Ukraine, but the reliability of the referendum is suspect at best.


There is this detail where Russian Baltic Fleet Navy base was located in ukraine in Sebastopol thus the Russian troops were legit on it's territory. Furthermore, after the Nazi Junta took over in Kiev, the riot special police unit "Berkut" of ukrainian Ministry of Internal Affairs from Crimea returned back and blocked the roads leading to Crimea, preventing Nazis coming on the peninsula. "Little green men popped up" only when the ordinary citizens of Crimea blocked the ukranian military bases to prevent arms going into the hands of who knows what. No "Little green man" was arrested or taken prisoner by the ukranian authorities and therefore there is no documented prove that they were Russian servicemen and not some hired guns.

Referendum was held on at that time ukranian territory, by at that time ukranian citizens and it was held according to the UN principle "the right of nations to of self-determination". Crimea, which is populated by mostly ethnic Russians and which territory was annexed by ukraine in 1954 had a right not to be with the rest of so-called "ukraine", it's Nazi government and it's artificial history. People of Crimea made a choice and no one, even you have a right to tell them how to live their lives.

Your lack of knowledge in history, is not an excuse to post brain farts on a constant basis.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/11 06:52:52


Post by: motyak


Rule 1, remember that it is important


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/11 06:54:57


Post by: Yaraton


 Wyrmalla wrote:

If countries could just annex each other for having a portion of the population having Pro-X leanings or being of X-nationality then... We'll I think Britain'll be having half its colonies back. Shame not every country's putting on the Reich like Russia has then when it comes to aggressive expansion (ooh, and extra fun to bring back the whole analogy to Germany annexation of Europe circa 1930-40s. They used the same reasoning the Russians have).


Welcome to NATO bombing and splitting Yugoslavia and occupying Kosovo to held it's referendum of independence.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/11 08:24:08


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


 Yaraton wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


There's this detail where Sevastopol was part of Ukraine. I don't care how illegitimate you feel that was, the fact remains that Crimea was a part of Ukraine, then little green men popped up and now it isn't. Hence "invasion".

Further, a referendum organised and performed so rapidly after a foreign power that has a vested interest in the outcome of said referendum shows up has little to no legitimacy. It's entirely possible that everyone did in fact vote to leave Ukraine, but the reliability of the referendum is suspect at best.


There is this detail where Russian Baltic Fleet Navy base was located in ukraine in Sebastopol thus the Russian troops were legit on it's territory. Furthermore, after the Nazi Junta took over in Kiev, the riot special police unit "Berkut" of ukrainian Ministry of Internal Affairs from Crimea returned back and blocked the roads leading to Crimea, preventing Nazis coming on the peninsula. "Little green men popped up" only when the ordinary citizens of Crimea blocked the ukranian military bases to prevent arms going into the hands of who knows what. No "Little green man" was arrested or taken prisoner by the ukranian authorities and therefore there is no documented prove that they were Russian servicemen and not some hired guns.

Referendum was held on at that time ukranian territory, by at that time ukranian citizens and it was held according to the UN principle "the right of nations to of self-determination". Crimea, which is populated by mostly ethnic Russians and which territory was annexed by ukraine in 1954 had a right not to be with the rest of so-called "ukraine", it's Nazi government and it's artificial history. People of Crimea made a choice and no one, even you have a right to tell them how to live their lives.

Your lack of knowledge in history, is not an excuse to post brain farts on a constant basis.


A referendum held so soon after annexation by a power that has a vested interest in its outcome is a joke. It spits on the idea of self-governance and free elections.

If the little green men weren't Russian, who was supplying and paying them? Putin himself has admitted to Russian personnel being involved.

I expect, foolishly perhaps, an apology.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
How is the implication that I would get assaulted for pointing out that Sevastopol de jure was Ukrainian territory before the annexation to Russia's advantage? That'd seem to imply that Russians are violent thugs; are you a Russophobe?

Well, if you put it in perspective like that, people might just give you an angry glare and go on. But if you say something like "Sevastopol is Ukraine" then you are bound to greatly upset a lot of people. Russians are not violent, but they are a very passionate and emotional people. And Sevastopol is one of the most nationalistic places in Russia.


I'm sure the average Russian isn't very violent (and I'm not being sarcastic), but it still doesn't exactly speak to Russia's advantage that you're responding to my argument with "In Russia, that'd get you beaten". That's an argumentum ad baculum.

 Yaraton wrote:
 Wyrmalla wrote:

If countries could just annex each other for having a portion of the population having Pro-X leanings or being of X-nationality then... We'll I think Britain'll be having half its colonies back. Shame not every country's putting on the Reich like Russia has then when it comes to aggressive expansion (ooh, and extra fun to bring back the whole analogy to Germany annexation of Europe circa 1930-40s. They used the same reasoning the Russians have).


Welcome to NATO bombing and splitting Yugoslavia and occupying Kosovo to held it's referendum of independence.


So we're back to Whataboutism? Never mind the fact that there was a genocide going on.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/11 11:20:02


Post by: motyak


Please don't spam the forum, as frustrated as you are. Answer with actual words or take a break (directed at removed posts/thread in general)


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/11 15:54:13


Post by: Vaktathi


 Yaraton wrote:
 Wyrmalla wrote:

If countries could just annex each other for having a portion of the population having Pro-X leanings or being of X-nationality then... We'll I think Britain'll be having half its colonies back. Shame not every country's putting on the Reich like Russia has then when it comes to aggressive expansion (ooh, and extra fun to bring back the whole analogy to Germany annexation of Europe circa 1930-40s. They used the same reasoning the Russians have).


Welcome to NATO bombing and splitting Yugoslavia and occupying Kosovo to held it's referendum of independence.
Yugoslavia, as a nation, had been nonexistent for years by the time a single NATO plane ever left the ground, they just hadn't changed the name in Serbia yet. Yugoslavia broke itself up, NATO didnt do it to them.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/11 16:31:06


Post by: konst80hummel


NATO did however bomb Serbia to aid the Kosovar Albanian separatist cause.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/11 16:57:59


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Wyrmalla wrote:
And in a poll where less than a third of the people living there (including those without citizenship, i.e. "holidaymakers") somehow 96.77% of the region's total population voted to join Russia.

...Because maths works differently in Putin's Russia. And it doesn't matter how few armed men there were at the voting stations. Real people didn't even fill in most of the ballots anyway.

You could create vote on the subject of "do you want free money" and you still wouldn't have 96.77% of the population vote yes... That was the Russian way of sticking the finger up to the world with their invasion.

That is nonsense. It is not uncommon for independence referendums to have such outcomes. For example, in Yugoslavia, the Slovene and Croatian independence referendums had similar numbers (94.8% and 93.2% respectively).


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/11 17:07:37


Post by: Vaktathi


konst80hummel wrote:
NATO did however bomb Serbia to aid the Kosovar Albanian separatist cause.
The Serbs were involved in actively persecuting and displacing albanians in Kosovo, with well documented massacres and deportations on large scales. Kosovo was also something like 85% ethnic Albanian in the early 90's.

Both sides acted like donkey-caves (Albanians and Serbs), but the Serbs went out of their way to poke the bear so many times that the response they got shouldnt have surprised anyone. The Serbs have a history of doing so, sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesnt.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/16 12:20:42


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Yaraton wrote:

There is this detail where Russian Baltic Fleet Navy base was located in ukraine in Sebastopol thus the Russian troops were legit on it's territory.


Let me stop you there. There were also terms to that rental agreement, which were violated. All of Sevastopol, for example, was not leased. And I would say scuttling cruisers in the channel at other Ukrainian navy facilities outside Sevastopol to block them in was hardly the act of a few local thugs.

Further, you point out that there was no military action against it. This was because several top officers of the Ukrainian military in the area were thoroughly corrupt and took a bribe. From Russia. They got to keep their rank and transfer to their Russian equivalent services, with better pay and or promotions (Denis Berezovsky is now deputy commander of the black sea fleet, for example) in exchange for allowing the Russians to do whatever they wanted.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/16 12:22:42


Post by: Freakazoitt


Today we celebrate 2-year aniversary liberation of Crimea from ukrainian occupation.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/16 12:47:25


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Freakazoitt wrote:
Today we celebrate 2-year aniversary liberation of Crimea from ukrainian occupation.


Except for those relocated to the Ukraine or Siberia.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/16 12:49:58


Post by: djones520


 Freakazoitt wrote:
Today we celebrate 2-year aniversary liberation of Crimea from ukrainian occupation.


Today we mourn the 2-year anniversary of the Russian annexation of Crimea from the Ukraine.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/16 13:21:54


Post by: BaronIveagh


 djones520 wrote:
 Freakazoitt wrote:
Today we celebrate 2-year aniversary liberation of Crimea from ukrainian occupation.


Today we mourn the 2-year anniversary of the Russian annexation of Crimea from the Ukraine.


I'd say not everyone is celebrating, Simferopol has suddenly sprouted a vandalism problem:



Posters have popped up all over Moscow's bus stations with a photo of the deceased Stalin and the caption: This One died, so will the current One."


I found this interesting, it's from a group of interviews taken from soldiers and sailors awarded medals 'for the return of Crimea'.

https://meduza.io/en/feature/2015/03/16/i-serve-the-russian-federation

Alexei KarunaI, Mechanic, Black Sea Fleet wrote: I first heard about the plans to annex the Crimea in early February. We were certainly aware of what was happening in Ukraine, because every night all the soldiers went to watch the news in a dedicated room with a TV. This was mandatory by order. At the same time, our military began to enter Crimea actively. They created and organized patrols to prevent a Maidan movement there, because Crimeans were strongly against the new Ukrainian government. Hence the idea to join Russia. It didn’t just come into Putin’s mind; the residents of the Crimea wanted it. We talked a lot with the locals, and I know what I’m talking about. When it comes to Sevastopol, there was a Russian tricolor hanging from every balcony.

On the eve of the referendum, we were warned that the alarm would be raised and we had to be ready. The whole day we sat wearing body armor. Provocations were expected from Ukrainian nationalists and the Crimean Tatars. Some of them were for joining the Russian Federation, or rather, they didn't care whether the future was with the Russians or the Ukrainians. Others wanted Crimea to remain a part of Ukraine. But everything went very quietly, because so many Russian troops were in such a tiny place! The Black Sea fleet had 15,000 people, another 20,000 soldiers were on the ground, plus there were the special forces, located in the city. Any resistance would have been crushed. And no one resisted."


Hey, BTW: I found out why Amnesty didn't back Russia's claims about mass murder etc: seems they pried the information out of their only witness the old fashioned way: a pair of pliers and 16 teeth. He was recently returned to the Ukraine in a prisoner swap.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/16 15:22:14


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Freakazoitt wrote:
Today we celebrate 2-year aniversary liberation of Crimea from ukrainian occupation.

slava!

BaronIveagh wrote:
 djones520 wrote:
 Freakazoitt wrote:
Today we celebrate 2-year aniversary liberation of Crimea from ukrainian occupation.


Today we mourn the 2-year anniversary of the Russian annexation of Crimea from the Ukraine.


I'd say not everyone is celebrating, Simferopol has suddenly sprouted a vandalism problem:



Indeed it does:

Someone smashed the windows of the mejlis (Tatar parliament), on the same day the Stalin plaque got defaced.


BaronIveagh wrote:Posters have popped up all over Moscow's bus stations with a photo of the deceased Stalin and the caption: This One died, so will the current One."

That is the worst thing about great leaders. We should put Putin in stasis to awaken him again in the future when we have found technology to prolong his life. Then he can be eternal president! At least, until we find a way to resurrect Stalin...
Apparently, the Kurds found a way to do that, we should get into contact with them:
Spoiler:



Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/16 16:28:17


Post by: Tyran


Oh yes Kurd Stalin!, I love Kurd Stalin!


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/16 16:49:49


Post by: Freakazoitt


Stalin was convicted in the Soviet Union and in Yeltsin's Russia. But now for some reason he held in high esteem again.
I think he did more harm than good.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/16 18:24:05


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Freakazoitt wrote:
Stalin was convicted in the Soviet Union and in Yeltsin's Russia. But now for some reason he held in high esteem again.
I think he did more harm than good.

The Soviet Union went to hell after Stalin, and Yeltsin's Russia was worse. Now that Stalin is held in high esteem again, things are going better again.
I don't really like Stalin, he is responsible for too much death and destruction. But he was also instrumental in defeating the Nazis, and he made Russia from a backwards peasant country into modern great power. So on question of whether he did more harm or good, I don't know what to answer. He did a lot of harm, but he also made Russia great. Maybe the suffering during Stalin's rule was a neccesary sacrifice for Russian greatness. To me it is hard to know what to think of him.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/16 19:01:14


Post by: Vaktathi


 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Freakazoitt wrote:
Stalin was convicted in the Soviet Union and in Yeltsin's Russia. But now for some reason he held in high esteem again.
I think he did more harm than good.

The Soviet Union went to hell after Stalin, and Yeltsin's Russia was worse. Now that Stalin is held in high esteem again, things are going better again.
I don't really like Stalin, he is responsible for too much death and destruction. But he was also instrumental in defeating the Nazis
He was also instrmental in inviting that attack and nearly allowing it to succeed in the first place by decapitating the Red Army on the 1930's and denuding frontier defenses and ignoring every intelligence report that suggested a German attack, and greatly harming the populations of the western areas (now Ukraine and Belarus) resulting in them being significantly easier for the Germans to take. On top of him also being responsible for the deaths of millions of citizens in purges and Gulags.

So, sure, his totalitarian state and iron will to dominate was crucial in defeating the Nazi's, but its highly likely none of that would have been necessary had someone else been in charge in the first place, or even if it had, that it would have gone much better from the outset.


Much like Joffre in France, yes his aura of calm and driving spirit provided a great anchor for the French army in WW1...but another commander likely wouldnt have needed such qualities to stem panic and stiffen morale had they been more capable field commanders.

Lets alsi not forget that, as far as "hell" is concerned, the soviet union under Stalin was a powerful state, but a terrible one to live in, and suffered the same problems the USSR chronically did, over emphasis on heavy industry and military equipment, while not properly building appropriate logistics efforts and crushing most other aspects of the economy that improve quality of life and lay the foundation for economic growth (e.g. building more tanks than tractors).


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/16 20:32:03


Post by: Rosebuddy


The Third Reich would have waged war against the USSR regardless of who was top comrade. The Nazis kind of wanted to exterminate the Eastern European peoples so that German settlers could claim the land for themselves, in imitation of the conquest of North America, in addition to hating communists in general. To say that Stalin invited the attack is ridiculous.

Never mind that the Soviet Union was from the very first moment defined by the enemies that sought to crush it. It shouldn't be surprising that it produced a lot of tanks when that was what won it the Second World War. You're living in a fantasy land as far as what the USSR could have done is concerned. The state was deeply shaped by its circumstances.

That people nowadays increasingly miss it is easily explained by people nowadays increasingly lacking in employment or housing or whatever else you care to mention. Certainly there's an element of simple nationalism too but the heart of it is remembering the devastating crash in living standards after the USSR fell. When people's needs are not fulfilled they will desire the alternatives that fulfil those needs.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/16 21:14:27


Post by: Vaktathi


Rosebuddy wrote:
The Third Reich would have waged war against the USSR regardless of who was top comrade. The Nazis kind of wanted to exterminate the Eastern European peoples so that German settlers could claim the land for themselves, in imitation of the conquest of North America, in addition to hating communists in general. To say that Stalin invited the attack is ridiculous.
no its not. That kind of thimg certainly was talked about within Nazi Germany, but Soviet border defense status and the Red Army's disastrous performance in the Winter War were huge signals to actually go and do it when eveything was on the fence, ultimately changing the minds of much of the German army command as to the feasibility of such an attack. The war was never a predetermined thing, the Nazi's attacked because they thought they could get away with it, and almost did, not simply because they hated Russians.


Never mind that the Soviet Union was from the very first moment defined by the enemies that sought to crush it. It shouldn't be surprising that it produced a lot of tanks when that was what won it the Second World War.
at the cost of production of all sorts of other items anf reliant on huge numbers of imports. The Red Army routinely had problems supplying all those tanks, many of the masses of tanks deatroyed in the opening 41 attack were lost because there was insufficient logisitcal systems to support them, repair them, fuel them, etc. Its like having 8 guns whem you only have two hands and one set of eyes to aim with, you cant uae them all effectively at once. It took massive foreign aid in terms of food and trucks and the like to sustain the Red Army. Many of those Katyusha launchers were built on US Studebaker trucks. German armored divisons worked as well as they did largely on thei logistical networl, each division had more trucks than tanks, the Red Army divisions were the opposite and routinely were strangled for it. Then they lost huge numbers of workers and arable land and agricultural production through insanely poor resource management, and alienated huge segments of the population who aided or refused to hinder the invaders (especially in the opening months of 41). And this isnt even getting into the almost total annihilation of the senior officer corps of the Red Army and many of the people who had originated tank doctrine within the res army.



Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/16 22:46:11


Post by: BaronIveagh


Rosebuddy wrote:
The Third Reich would have waged war against the USSR regardless of who was top comrade. The Nazis kind of wanted to exterminate the Eastern European peoples so that German settlers could claim the land for themselves, in imitation of the conquest of North America, in addition to hating communists in general. To say that Stalin invited the attack is ridiculous.


Nor really. The secret protocols that were part of the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact showed that Hitler was willing to work with Stalin as long as he thought that he did not have the advantage. Hitler and Stalin went to great lengths to create a series of secret protocols that outlined how they would divide Europe between them. It was only after the Soviet disaster thar was the Winter War that Hitler began discussing an actual invasion of Russia, thinking, not incorrectly, that Stalin's purges had badly damaged the Red Army.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/16 23:19:16


Post by: Tyran


Oh please the Nazis never knew when to stop, eventually they will invade the USSR, assuming the Allies don't defeat them first (which is a big assumption).


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/17 00:42:24


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Tyran wrote:
Oh please the Nazis never knew when to stop, eventually they will invade the USSR, assuming the Allies don't defeat them first (which is a big assumption).


I doubt they would have. Without Russia to assault, Hitler would have thrown everything into a cross channel invasion in 1941. Imagine the Nazis able to throw everything they had at London. The English like to talk about the Battle of Britain, but they never really faced what the Germans were truly capable of due to them throwing most of it at Russia.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/17 01:49:08


Post by: LordofHats


many of the people who had originated tank doctrine within the res army.


The execution of Mikhail Tukhachevsky should really go down as the dumbest thing any leader of a state did in the 1930's. The man was easily the most brilliant military mind in Europe, and maybe even the world at the time Stalin had him killed.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Without Russia to assault, Hitler would have thrown everything into a cross channel invasion in 1941.


With what boats? One does not simply cross the English channel, evident by how much material the western allies needed to do it. Germany was never going to make (in the early 1940's) a legitimate invasion across the English channel, and Germany ultimately lost the staring contest across the water even before Overlord. The resources didn't exist, especially not after the British took it upon themselves to scuttle the French navy. Serious planning for Sea Loin was abandoned almost as soon as it began.

That being said. Yeah. Hitler wasn't going to stop, but we're really talking about time spans here. In 1939, Hitler wasn't going to go to war with Russia. Sure he wanted to someda and probably would have eventually no matter what, but who knows when that war would have actually happened. The Winter War was a huge embarrassment for the Red Army, and convinced the Germany military that now was better than later. No Winter War (or one that wasn't a disaster I guess) = no Operation Barbarossa in 1941. Talking about what Hitler wanted to do is different from what he was actually about to do and what he thought he could do in the moment. The gutting of the Red Army was a horrible decision made to suit the paranoia of Stalin, and pretty much laid out the welcome mat for invasion. Stalin's blunder with the Red Army and the Winter War opened the Eastern Front just as much as Hitler's desire to conquer. That he ignored all signs that an invasion was imminent, both from Britain and his own intelligence network, makes it an even worse blunder.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/17 02:29:44


Post by: BaronIveagh


 LordofHats wrote:

With what boats? One does not simply cross the English channel, evident by how much material the western allies needed to do it. Germany was never going to make (in the early 1940's) a legitimate invasion across the English channel, and Germany ultimately lost the staring contest across the water even before Overlord. The resources didn't exist, especially not after the British took it upon themselves to scuttle the French navy. Serious planning for Sea Loin was abandoned almost as soon as it began.


Yes, but that was due to the resources being needed elsewhere.

Picture the Blitz with all the aircraft that Germany lost over Russia. That's about 3k aircraft lost in combat in just '41. and that's just the losses. Throw enough aircraft at the channel, and it doesn't matter how many ships England had, they'd soon have 0. Remember that the Luftwaffe's failures over England could largely be attributed to their difficulties in maintaining a steady supply of manpower and replacement aircraft England could replace aircraft but pilots were getting thin. Now imagine a Luftwaffe with all the resources that they were sending to Russia at thier disposal as well. Becomes much more one sided, doesn't it, even if you assume the same rate of attrition, which would have been unlikely as combat fatigue was already killing almost as many British pilots at the Germans were.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/17 02:58:38


Post by: LordofHats


I think that its well within possibility for the Luftwaffe to really eliminate the RAF as a threat (they almost did), but that doesn't translate to making a cross channel invasion feasible. The Luftwaffe wasn't going to just sink the entire Royal Navy from the air. The Luftwaffe wasn't anywhere near as sophisticated as the Imperial Airforce of Japan in that field, evident by the great differences between the sinking of the Prince of Wales and eight weeks of battle in Norway where despite an abundance of targets, aircraft, and ordinance, the Luftwaffe only sank two ships. It's assuming a lot to take the Luftwaffe's horrible track record vs naval targets and think they were going to pose an obstacle to the largest numerical battle fleet on the planet, even if it was dated. And that's just part of the problem. Germany enjoyed marginal air superiority for two years in Western Europe and they couldn't make Britain surrender. There's no reason to believe more planes would have made a difference especially when those planes wouldn't have been the strategic bombers Germany would really need (and never really had) to mount a meaningful bombing campaign.

Even with air superiority, Germany didn't have the boats, or the capacity to make the boats to get boots across the water. They could have borrowed some boats from the French, but the British sank half the French fleet early on precisely out of that concern, and the French scuttled the rest themselves a few years later when Germany tried to take them (if only to spite the British for sinking the other half years earlier). Even then, those boats would only help them fight the Royal Navy, not get men from one side of the channel to the other. Germany had at no point landing ships, or supply ships, or any plans laid out to build them. They had none of the necessary infrastructure to mount a crossing. Not having Russia as an enemy in 1941 wouldn't change that. Even when they didn't have Russia as an enemy, no plans to make the necessary ships materialized. Hitler likely never took the idea of invading Britain all that seriously himself.

Germany can have all the manpower and resources it wants, and even air superiority, but it's all moot if they can't get an army from one end of the channel to the other. Britain could sit there all day and say "nope, not surrendering", and we know that because its exactly what happened.

The more likely reality without the opening of the Russian front is that Britain would sue for peace (eventually), making any theoretical preparations to invade a bit moot. And that's delving into the realm of historical fiction rather than history. The historical reality is the means to invade Britain were not available to Germany.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/17 10:59:36


Post by: Freakazoitt


I support the idea of Stalin to test communism in one country. If it is successful, you will not need a world revolution. if there is a failure, it also does not need to burn the world.
But industrialization ... at what cost? village collective in poverty, many people died in the construction, working as slaves
We built a lot of planes and tanks - but failed to use them
The tanks were kept in large units, but without the normal supply and command
It is not surprising that there were such large losses. It is said that the largest tank battle of Kursk was on and Prokhorovka. But the largest tank battle in the beginning of the war. And then the Soviet Union lost a lot of tanks. This simply prefer not to remember.
Of course, during the war, he showed himself as in truth Stalin, man of steel. Despite all the turmoil, he continued to give the right orders and assign the right people. Even Napoleon in such a situation fell into a depression and left his troops in the lurch
Yes, he created the atomic bomb and to protect it from the US atomic monopoly.
But if he made people's lives better, than in the US? In the 1950s, many people still lived same as during the war.
Khrushchev tried to overtake and surpass the United States. But he was always climbing is not your thing, prevented the work where it has no jurisdiction. Brezhnev did not do anything new, and the development has slowed or stopped. Gorbachev was the hope of the people for change. But he finally destroyed everything. The 1980s were a real decline.
Yeltsin was also hope. But he and his team acted at random, not knowing where it will all end. Blindly they believed that the economy "will work by itself"
But who is Mr. Putin? He began as the right manager who It makes everything work properly and improves the lives of people, who could declare the west that Russia - is an independent country and has interests and finished as someone from which the people are tired and do not really believe.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/17 15:15:53


Post by: Ketara


 BaronIveagh wrote:


Yes, but that was due to the resources being needed elsewhere.

Picture the Blitz with all the aircraft that Germany lost over Russia. That's about 3k aircraft lost in combat in just '41. and that's just the losses. Throw enough aircraft at the channel, and it doesn't matter how many ships England had, they'd soon have 0. Remember that the Luftwaffe's failures over England could largely be attributed to their difficulties in maintaining a steady supply of manpower and replacement aircraft England could replace aircraft but pilots were getting thin. Now imagine a Luftwaffe with all the resources that they were sending to Russia at thier disposal as well. Becomes much more one sided, doesn't it, even if you assume the same rate of attrition, which would have been unlikely as combat fatigue was already killing almost as many British pilots at the Germans were.


Air superiority does even begin to equate to 'easy amphibious assault'. This isn't the Roman days, where Caligula can order a giant boat bridge strung together. Lord of Hats has indicated how they quite simply didn't have the craft to make it possible.

But even assuming there were sufficient transport ships, every single RAF plane was shot down, and every single Navy surface vessel decided to sit the war out in fear of air attack and chill at Scapa Flow, British submarines would have torpedoed any German attempt to sail invasion craft en masse together for a Cross-Channel invasion. It would have been like shooting ducks in a barrel. And I guarantee you, if there had been any attempt at such an invasion, the surface fleet would not have sat idly by anyway.

See here for a blow by blow likely account of what happens (with a British handicap, no mass surface fleet commitment):- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Sea_Lion_(wargame)

The Kriegsmarine was ultimately not up to the job. It would have taken them four to five years of uninterrupted dedicated construction to get to where the British were at the outbreak of war, and by then, the British Navy would have probably outnumbered them five to one.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/18 01:12:04


Post by: BaronIveagh


LordofHats wrote:It's assuming a lot to take the Luftwaffe's horrible track record vs naval targets...


Ok, hold on a sec. In Norway, they were mostly deployed against inland targets, with only 300-400 combat aircraft including fighters total for the whole theater. That's not exactly a surplus of aircraft to fight across all of Denmark and Norway.


LordofHats wrote:Even with air superiority, Germany didn't have the boats, or the capacity to make the boats to get boots across the water.


According to most estimates it would have taken until about September of 1941 to gather sufficient ships from the captured merchant fleets of Denmark, Holland, and France. The sinking of the french fleet makes a direct naval confrontation more difficult, but really would not hinder troop movement.



Ketara wrote:
But even assuming there were sufficient transport ships, every single RAF plane was shot down, and every single Navy surface vessel decided to sit the war out in fear of air attack and chill at Scapa Flow, British submarines would have torpedoed any German attempt to sail invasion craft en masse together for a Cross-Channel invasion. It would have been like shooting ducks in a barrel. And I guarantee you, if there had been any attempt at such an invasion, the surface fleet would not have sat idly by anyway.


There are 121 submarines sunk in the English channel, most of them from WW2. German u-boats account for 45 of them.

Ketara wrote:
See here for a blow by blow likely account of what happens (with a British handicap, no mass surface fleet commitment):- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Sea_Lion_(wargame)


Except the war-game assumes that German air superiority was impossible (also irrelevant as my supposition was that they'd have more than historical numbers due to not splitting their forces between east and west.).

It also has Hitler magically get even crazier than usual (I'm sure Galland came up with that one) and refuse to allow the Luftwaffe to stop bombing London long enough to actually support the landings. Hitler's pride would have been riding on that landing success. I doubt he'd have refused the request. Also, if the Germans pushed into Folkstone in less than 24 hours (And, based on the landing site, probably more like two), there simply would not have been time to demolish that harbor. While Ramsgate Pier might have easily burned, the outer harbor, where large ships docked, would have not been seriously damaged by much short of naval gunfire.

Inner


Outer


British defenses were up higher, and could not de-elevate far enough to hit the town.



The loss of Folkstone also would have meant the loss of RAF Lympne.



The grass strip there was prepped for cratering, but the men operating Lympne were unsure how they worked, and, in fear of an accident, stored the repair equipment on site. Given the speed that Folkstone falls, it's likely that there would be little time for much else.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/18 01:53:25


Post by: LordofHats


 BaronIveagh wrote:
Ok, hold on a sec. In Norway, they were mostly deployed against inland targets, with only 300-400 combat aircraft including fighters total for the whole theater. That's not exactly a surplus of aircraft to fight across all of Denmark and Norway.


That's a lot of planes, and in 8 weeks they only sank two ships. That's kind of why I brought it up.

According to most estimates it would have taken until about September of 1941 to gather sufficient ships from the captured merchant fleets of Denmark, Holland, and France. The sinking of the french fleet makes a direct naval confrontation more difficult, but really would not hinder troop movement.


A merchant fleet only adds up to an invasion fleet in the minds of arm chair generals who don't realize that crossing open water and getting boots on the ground takes dedicated transports. You can't just borrow a bunch of boats (unless you're goal is to move men and no heavy weapons, as the British did at Dunkirk). You need to be able to get tanks onto the shore, and artillery to support the attack. The Germans experimented with landing tanks for a few years but couldn't come up with anything usable, and even if they had they didn't have the means of getting the tanks across the channel without dedicated transport or a means of dealing with the Royal Navy. They couldn't use their fleet either, especially with Hitler not wanting his prized battleships getting sunk, which assuredly would have happened with the Royal Navy floating about.

I've never read a serious scholar who thinks Sea Lion was remotely possible. Plenty of popular authors throw the idea around, but that cast of characters throws all kinds of nonsense around (kind of their bread and butter).

The Royal Navy numbered over 1500 ships, the vast majority always present in the North Atlantic and Med throughout the War.. There is absolutely 0 reason to think the Luftwaffe could dent that, and plenty of evidence that it was beyond them if only for lack of training. The Germany Navy couldn't match the Royal Navy at any point, and Holland and Denmark's mercantile fleets do not an invasion make.

Like so many things people claim that Germany could have done, it's a myth. The kind of world where Germany can pull it off is fictional, not historical.

Except the war-game assumes that German air superiority was impossible (also irrelevant as my supposition was that they'd have more than historical numbers due to not splitting their forces between east and west.).


The Germans had 3 years to establish complete air superiority before the war with Russia and failed. Even then, they had a nominal superiority in the sense that they had complete momentum to pick and choose targets and where battles would happen, and still they failed. You're speaking to a specter of dread that has far more to do with wartime propaganda than reality.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/18 09:22:29


Post by: BaronIveagh


 LordofHats wrote:

That's a lot of planes, and in 8 weeks they only sank two ships. That's kind of why I brought it up.


Not really. Greece had twice that. Africa four times that. The aircraft density per mile of theater is pretty low for Germany in '39 and '40, particularly considering the number of sorties flown. They also shot down something like 75 aircraft of the fleet air arm.

 LordofHats wrote:

A merchant fleet only adds up to an invasion fleet in the minds of arm chair generals who don't realize that crossing open water and getting boots on the ground takes dedicated transports.


I'll be sure to let those armchair generals, particularly Major General Edmond H. Leavey, down at the war department know their idea to convert merchant vessels and passanger steamers to troopships is a crazy idea that could never work.

Oh, wait, it did.

http://www.history.army.mil/documents/WWII/wwii_Troopships.pdf

You may notice a large number of them start off with 'former name' 'converted from' 'passenger liner for' 'merchant ship owned by'.


Where you need specialized ships is to make your initial landing. If you hold a harbor, you can do with pretty much anything with a few weeks prep of the ship.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/18 12:04:10


Post by: Ketara


 BaronIveagh wrote:


There are 121 submarines sunk in the English channel, most of them from WW2. German u-boats account for 45 of them.


So....you're saying that submarines couldn't have attacked the German fleet...because there's been a lot of submarines sunk in the channel over the years from two world wars and beyond?

That's nonsensical.


Except the war-game assumes that German air superiority was impossible (also irrelevant as my supposition was that they'd have more than historical numbers due to not splitting their forces between east and west.).


If the British had thrown in the main battle fleet into the channel for 48 hours, aerial superiority would have been irrelevant. They'd most likely have lost a third of the fleet to German aerial attacks and torpedoes (primarily the latter), but they'd have obliterated all German transport capacity, wrecked the closest French harbours, and dumped enough mines to ensure a future landing cross-channel would be impossible any time soon. And then that would have been the end of it.

It also has Hitler magically get even crazier than usual (I'm sure Galland came up with that one) and refuse to allow the Luftwaffe to stop bombing London long enough to actually support the landings.
Hitler's pride would have been riding on that landing success. I doubt he'd have refused the request. Also, if the Germans pushed into Folkstone in less than 24 hours (And, based on the landing site, probably more like two), there simply would not have been time to demolish that harbor. While Ramsgate Pier might have easily burned, the outer harbor, where large ships docked, would have not been seriously damaged by much short of naval gunfire.


Explosives don't take 24 hours to prepare. You send the order from London, have them packed on a train, set, and blown within 12 hours. And obtaining the gear you need to repair a facility adequately is a lot harder in a general warzone when your landings are already being roughed up. Sure, you can disembark troops by making them swim onto a beach if you really want to, but to invade a completely hostile country? You need ammunition, rations, vehicles, spare parts for those vehicles, and so forth. That stuff takes a slightly more dedicated unloading facility, and then a lot more effort to schlep it to where it needs to be.

I'll be sure to let those armchair generals, particularly Major General Edmond H. Leavey, down at the war department know their idea to convert merchant vessels and passanger steamers to troopships is a crazy idea that could never work.

Oh, wait, it did.

http://www.history.army.mil/documents/WWII/wwii_Troopships.pdf

You may notice a large number of them start off with 'former name' 'converted from' 'passenger liner for' 'merchant ship owned by'.


Where you need specialized ships is to make your initial landing. If you hold a harbor, you can do with pretty much anything with a few weeks prep of the ship.


Quite frankly, what you use to chuck troops across is irrelevant. The Germans could never have held the Channel open to them. And the bigger the ships? You want to pull in passenger liners and merchantmen? The bigger the targets.

I really hate to appeal to authority here, but naval history in early twentieth century is my actual profession. WW1 is more my department than WW2, but when it comes to logistics and capabilities here (heck, half the two naval forces were of WW1 vintage), and the basic realities of moving people around, you can take my word as being as good as any scholars. I'm afraid Sea Lion was impossible. In every conceivable scenario, the fact that the British retained their fleet meant that they could cut off German crossings and supplies at will. It would have cost them casualties, but the Fleet existed for that purpose, and would gladly have sacrificed half their number or more to stymie an invasion of the homeland.

Even if they lost half the fleet, and the Germans tried it again six months later, the British shipbuilding facilities would have remained undisturbed in the period in between, and would have replenished losses as appropriate.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/18 14:02:32


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


If Germany had captured the French fleet intact, would that have made enough of a difference?


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/18 14:21:04


Post by: notprop


No, the combined German forced would still be greatly out numbered by the RN and represent an even bigger target for the RAF.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/18 14:23:51


Post by: LordofHats


It's unlikely they would have. Early on, the Germans didn't seem to have any actual intention of seizing the French fleet. The British were very concerned about the scenario, and took steps like Operation Catapult and forced boarding to eliminate the threat. Much of the French fleet was not itself based in France, which made it easier for the French to keep their ships out of German hands. Some joined the Free French Navy. Some sailed to foreign ports in the Americas and the Indies and simply waited out the war.

The French Navy under Vichy France did continue to sail throughout the war years, and because of Operation Catapult, nominally considered itself at war with Britain. There were a number of battles at Dakar, Gabon, and Madagascar, but the French only won the Battle of Dakar. When Germany attempted to seize French ships, the French scuttled them, because that's naval tradition apparently.

Theoretically, capturing the French fleet would have "helped", but the French fleet at every turn was out of German reach.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/18 22:09:11


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Ketara wrote:

So....you're saying that submarines couldn't have attacked the German fleet...because there's been a lot of submarines sunk in the channel over the years from two world wars and beyond?


My point was that submarines can be killed and the channel is ideal for it. German uboats preferred to avoid the channel as it was an obvious killing ground.

 Ketara wrote:

If the British had thrown in the main battle fleet into the channel for 48 hours, aerial superiority would have been irrelevant.


One would have thought that Billy Mitchell blew that wildly mistaken idea to hell with the USS Virginia.

 Ketara wrote:
They'd most likely have lost a third of the fleet to German aerial attacks and torpedoes (primarily the latter), but they'd have obliterated all German transport capacity, wrecked the closest French harbours, and dumped enough mines to ensure a future landing cross-channel would be impossible any time soon. And then that would have been the end of it.


You left out the part where Nelson and Jellicoe rose up out of their coffins, grew forty stories high, and waded through Berlin breathing nuclear fire on Hitler.

Here's the first of many issues with your scenario:

German sea mines already in place. Shore batteries. Air dropped mines. Abandoning other theaters to assemble. The fact that, despite what some posters seem to think about the incompetence of the Luftwaffe when it comes to sinking ships, they racked up 282 ships totaling 1,489,795 tonnes between July and October 1940 in that area. Actual logistics of placing that many mines, since they didn't actually have the raw mine laying capacity to cover such a huge area. It goes on.

 Ketara wrote:

Explosives don't take 24 hours to prepare. You send the order from London, have them packed on a train, set, and blown within 12 hours.


As I said, my estimate was about two, and I highly doubt it would have ever taken 12. Both facilities were undermanned in September 1940 and May 1941. Dropping paratroops at RAF Lympne would have overrun the place in moments, as it was nearly deserted at the time, and a priority target for the Germans. The real threat to Folkstone would have been the possibility of long range rail cannon fire after it fell. There were a few of them around, but how effective it would have been due to the cliffs is a good question, the harbor is partially sheltered by the cliffs.


 Ketara wrote:

I really hate to appeal to authority here, but naval history in early twentieth century is my actual profession. WW1 is more my department than WW2, but when it comes to logistics and capabilities here (heck, half the two naval forces were of WW1 vintage), and the basic realities of moving people around, you can take my word as being as good as any scholars.


I hate to point this out then, but WW2 was wildly different than the days when you could just run up Equal Speed Charlie London and not worry overly much about the sky falling on you before you came within 50 miles of the enemy You're looking at it from the standpoint of a traditional naval surface engagement, which it most assuredly would not be.


Let's say you brought the full might of the RN into the channel. You'd get near zero resistance from the Kreigsmarine, who'd high tail it to harbors or out of the area if possible. But you do not have aerial superiority, that's still theirs. You park your fleet and open fire on their shore facilities.

All you'd be doing was repeating Taranto on a much grander scale, with the axis and allies reversed as far as who was on the receiving end. Based on that outcome, you'd have lost half the fleet before you were even finished shelling Calais.

However, i think this discussion should probably move to another thread.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/18 23:40:57


Post by: Ketara




If you like, feel free to open one. But since you seem to be focused on trying to argue against what all of the German command of the time, the British command at the time, a wargame between professional staff from both nations, and most relevant historians since have thought on the matter, I'm not sure I see the point. I don't feel I'm getting so much in the way of reasonable responses as I am false equivalency and misdirection. I could go through what you've written above point by point, from the daft approach of trying to equate sunk merchantmen with the Luftwaffe's ability to sink battleships (one is designed to carry cargo, the other is designed to take hits from 12 inch cannon), to the fact you seem to completely ignore the absolute key principle here (namely that British fleet losses are irrelevant if the German invasion craft hit the bottom of the ocean along with them). But I'm starting to feel like I'm wasting my time.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/19 02:19:53


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Ketara wrote:
I could go through what you've written above point by point, from the daft approach of trying to equate sunk merchantmen with the Luftwaffe's ability to sink battleships (one is designed to carry cargo, the other is designed to take hits from 12 inch cannon), to the fact you seem to completely ignore the absolute key principle here (namely that British fleet losses are irrelevant if the German invasion craft hit the bottom of the ocean along with them). But I'm starting to feel like I'm wasting my time.


Using a 2crh or a 4crh when you make that claim about 12" guns?

I hate to point this out but any British battleship carrying 12 inch guns would have been just as screwed by that bomber as a merchantman. I seem to recall that last British dreadnought to be built with those was that 12"/50's on Colossus. Orion jumped to the 13.5. To say that it had nearly non-existent protection against bombs is a mild understatement. (for those not following: Colossus had a deck only 4 inches thick, but belt and bulkheads 11 and 10 inches, respectively. A merchantman's deck might be two or three inches thick. Not a whole lot of difference in the face of a five hundred pound bomb, let alone a 3k pound glide bomb.)

Clearly you are wasting your time, since you also very obviously did not read certain posts I made about the possibility. As I said, they would most likely just head to port or leave. Assuming your fleet is there in time to attack the landing, it'd also have been spotted before the landing ships ever left port. Your battleships averaged about 24knts, which is more or less going to set how fast your fleet moves in, because destroyer do not eat shore fire well. How many attack runs do you think the Luftwaffe could manage before you ever got in range of anything if you feel that air superiority does not matter?



Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/19 02:29:20


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Ketara wrote:

Even if they lost half the fleet, and the Germans tried it again six months later, the British shipbuilding facilities would have remained undisturbed in the period in between, and would have replenished losses as appropriate.

Okay...
So you are saying the Germans wouldn't bomb British shipbuilding facilities into dust first? Seriously? With all the bomber aircraft they could have used if they hadn't invaded the Soviet Union, they could have easily destroyed most British war infrastructure.

You keep going on about that British fleet, but hadn't the Germans invaded the USSR they would have had a ridiculously strong airforce. By the time of the German landings, there wouldn't be any British fleet anymore. British ships were quite vulnerable to air attacks: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_Prince_of_Wales_and_Repulse

Also, I think you might want to make a new thread for this. You guys are hijacking my beloved Ukraine thread! This thread is my home on Dakka, and you are messing it all up!


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/19 02:39:58


Post by: motyak


We're done with the WWII chat now. Thanks


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/19 02:53:48


Post by: BaronIveagh


 motyak wrote:
We're done with the WWII chat now. Thanks


I've started a thread we can take this over to:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/684234.page#8531468


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/20 01:56:13


Post by: Yaraton


 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

I expect, foolishly perhaps, an apology.


You won't get any from me. A major civil unrest on the territory with the main Russian Navy Black Sea Fleet base would attract some attention from the proper Russian Intelligence Services. How many were involved - never been disclosed.

So we're back to Whataboutism? Never mind the fact that there was a genocide going on.


Oh please... I like how everything that the West does is "democratic and good" and when it comes to Russia is "totalitarian and bad". The West have opened the Pandora Box and now they have to live with it. As for genocide, I can name at least a couple of other countries where it was happening and the West didn't give a damn. The only difference between those countries and Yugoslavia was the amount of money invested in breaking it apart, just like they do it now in Syria. Giving that the ukrainian neo-Nazis were planning to send the "caravans of friendship" with their armed thugs to show those Russians in Crime their place, I'd say the threat of genocide was real. The burning people in Odessa was a very vivid example what would happen if they are not stopped.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Vaktathi wrote:
Yugoslavia, as a nation, had been nonexistent for years by the time a single NATO plane ever left the ground, they just hadn't changed the name in Serbia yet. Yugoslavia broke itself up, NATO didnt do it to them.


And yet when you talk to people from Yugoslavia, living in the West, they all say that they didn't have really big problems with each other until the Western Intelligence serves started financing the nationalistic elements through the "freedom and democracy" process. Somebody somewhere has decided that it's much better and more simple to keep nationalistic elites of the small countries under the his foot than allowed a "Europian USSR" to exist.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Vaktathi wrote:
[On top of him also being responsible for the deaths of millions of citizens in purges and Gulags.

What's "Gulag"?

Meanwhile, in the world of elves and fairies...
Ukranian neo-Nazis stoned the police in Lviv (former Poland and now the Western "ukraine") and celebrated their victory with the "Hitler salute" on camera:




"There is no Fascism in Ukraine." (c) Any western politician.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/20 14:20:54


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Yaraton wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
[On top of him also being responsible for the deaths of millions of citizens in purges and Gulags.

What's "Gulag"?

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%93%D0%A3%D0%9B%D0%90%D0%93

 Yaraton wrote:
"There is no Fascism in Ukraine." (c) Any western politician.

The West is hypocritical. The West doesn't give a gak about human rights, freedom. democracy or whatever vague things it claims to believe in. All Western countries care for are their national interests. Just like Russia. The difference is that the West is so good at deceit it managed to deceive itself about it It is all a matter of keeping up appearances. The West will happily support nazis, terrorists and radical islamists etc. as long as they can somehow spin the story as those groups being "good guys" fighting the "bad guys" ( "bad guys" usually being whatever government the West has decided it doesn't like and wants to mess up this time). If it does come out those groups are actually quite bad themselves, they can always still say that it is just a minority and that most of them are still "good guys". And who is going to check?


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/20 17:34:16


Post by: Wyrmalla


 Yaraton wrote:
"There is no Fascism in Ukraine." (c) Any western politician.


In the early days of the war it was the Russians who were screaming that the Ukrainians were all Nazis, based on events in WWII. In response to this the West took that as propaganda. Russian propaganda then took to showing pictures of the Neo-Nazis, at which point things became confusing... See the pictures which were toted about Russian news sources weren't of Ukrainian Nazis, they were Russians.

There are Nazis on both sides. Hell did I not post on this subject only a few pages ago? Who the Nazis support varies. You've your straight up Nationalists. Then there's your odder type, who want to found a Fascist state. The latter, despite fighting the enemy, are also supported by foreign Neo-Nazis. Which is to say that Azov has had the leaders of the Pro-Russian Fascist groups join them in their rallies before.

So yes, obviously there are Nazis forming up both sides (let's not even get into how many in the Russian government are also at it). However, to say that the West haven't admitted to this isn't being a tad obtuse. In the political world we live in it'd be suicide to openly admit to supporting an extremist organisation. When I say this I'm not just referring to the West of course, or will we ignore that the brave Russian Nationalists which the Kremlin plays up are made up of similar extremists (or on a similar note pass by extremist movements in other countries which they've fostered). Its a fact of the Great Game to back whichever group will meet the needs of the time, of course the problem with that is having the foresight to put long term goals before short term ones.



Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/20 20:01:15


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


 Yaraton wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

I expect, foolishly perhaps, an apology.


You won't get any from me. A major civil unrest on the territory with the main Russian Navy Black Sea Fleet base would attract some attention from the proper Russian Intelligence Services. How many were involved - never been disclosed.

So we're back to Whataboutism? Never mind the fact that there was a genocide going on.


Oh please... I like how everything that the West does is "democratic and good" and when it comes to Russia is "totalitarian and bad". The West have opened the Pandora Box and now they have to live with it. As for genocide, I can name at least a couple of other countries where it was happening and the West didn't give a damn. The only difference between those countries and Yugoslavia was the amount of money invested in breaking it apart, just like they do it now in Syria. Giving that the ukrainian neo-Nazis were planning to send the "caravans of friendship" with their armed thugs to show those Russians in Crime their place, I'd say the threat of genocide was real. The burning people in Odessa was a very vivid example what would happen if they are not stopped.


Strawman. I've never said that "the West", whatever that includes, only does things that are democratic and good.

Why does it matter that there were other countries where there were ongoing genocides? You're doubling down on the Whataboutism again. Whether or not the Rwandan genocide, for example, was going on and "the West's" lack of action there is entirely irrelevant to the fact that there was an actual genocide going on in Yugoslavia.

 Yaraton wrote:

And yet when you talk to people from Yugoslavia, living in the West, they all say that they didn't have really big problems with each other until the Western Intelligence serves started financing the nationalistic elements through the "freedom and democracy" process. Somebody somewhere has decided that it's much better and more simple to keep nationalistic elites of the small countries under the his foot than allowed a "Europian USSR" to exist.


You didn't know what the Gulags were, and yet you would presume to compare the EU to the USSR and to lecture us on history? Further, no, not all people from what used to be Yugoslavia say the same thing, because they're people, not some monolithic entity.

 Yaraton wrote:


"There is no Fascism in Ukraine." (c) Any western politician.


I'll direct you, for the second time, to my first post in this thread, all the way back from the murky pits of 2014:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
On the other hand, the opposition is partially neo-nazis as well. There's some rather unsavory types on both sides.


Lastly:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


If the little green men weren't Russian, who was supplying and paying them? Putin himself has admitted to Russian personnel being involved.


You'll note that I'm not making personal attacks on you or calling your arguments "brain farts" or the like. I'm still going to insist on demanding an apology.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/21 16:03:57


Post by: Wyrmalla


Why.


In Ukraine, will start production of a new generation «Maluk» automatic rifle


In Ukraine, will start production of a new generation «Maluk» automatic rifle.

The «Maluk» automatic rifle have bullpup design and developed by Ukrainian State Enterprise «Krasylivsky Agregate Plant» of State Concern «Ukroboronprom».

The «Maluk» automatic rifle has had its recoil reduced by almost 50 percent as compared to that in the Kalashnikov rifle, and its design to allow the key operations – unlocking firing, removing and replacing the magazine and reloading – to be done with a single hand.

The Malyuk has a total weight of 3,2 kg without the magazine, it has a maximum range of 500 m and can be adapted for different types of caliber as 5.45, 7.62 x 39mm or 5.56 x 45 mm.

military-informant.com


Doomed to failure from the start. Ignoring the economic and political situation, what's the point? There's already a crappy Russian bullpup AK-74 conversion kit in use in Ukraine as it is. If they're that fixated on bullpups in AK caliburs then I'd note that the Tavor was licensed to the Ukrainians years ago. Other than for nationalistic pride, perhaps similar to Confederate gun manufacturers in the American Civil war, I see zero point in this thing.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/21 16:26:33


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Wyrmalla wrote:
Why.


In Ukraine, will start production of a new generation «Maluk» automatic rifle


In Ukraine, will start production of a new generation «Maluk» automatic rifle.

The «Maluk» automatic rifle have bullpup design and developed by Ukrainian State Enterprise «Krasylivsky Agregate Plant» of State Concern «Ukroboronprom».

The «Maluk» automatic rifle has had its recoil reduced by almost 50 percent as compared to that in the Kalashnikov rifle, and its design to allow the key operations – unlocking firing, removing and replacing the magazine and reloading – to be done with a single hand.

The Malyuk has a total weight of 3,2 kg without the magazine, it has a maximum range of 500 m and can be adapted for different types of caliber as 5.45, 7.62 x 39mm or 5.56 x 45 mm.

military-informant.com


Doomed to failure from the start. Ignoring the economic and political situation, what's the point? There's already a crappy Russian bullpup AK-74 conversion kit in use in Ukraine as it is. If they're that fixated on bullpups in AK caliburs then I'd note that the Tavor was licensed to the Ukrainians years ago. Other than for nationalistic pride, perhaps similar to Confederate gun manufacturers in the American Civil war, I see zero point in this thing.

I highly doubt it is ever going into full production anyway. It is probably just part of a scheme to sluice away government subsidies to private bank accounts or some other corrupt gak. This bullpup rifle thing has been going on since 2003 without any real progress whatsoever. And it is nationalism of course: "Look! Ukraine of makings new gun! Ukraine stronk!"
Also, it doesn't even look like it is an actual new gun. It just looks like a AK-74 had sex with a Tavor.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/21 16:47:40


Post by: Ustrello


But it does have a lot of rails for tacticool stuff though


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/21 16:48:20


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


Also, it doesn't even look like it is an actual new gun. It just looks like a AK-74 had sex with a Tavor.


I invoke Rule #34 of the Internet. Pics or it never happened.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/23 20:39:39


Post by: Wyrmalla


Day 55, they still don't know I am a Panzer III"





As the war started in Ukraine there was a WWII reenactment going on. Seemingly some of the stuff from that's been left in country, youknow, in case you were wondering. That's from one of the country's big armour plants. Presumably most of that stuff's in the field now.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/23 22:49:45


Post by: Iron_Captain


Lol, for people who aren't supposed to be Nazis, they do a damn good job of looking like them
When will the Ukr army get its new shipment of Tigers?


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/24 01:57:50


Post by: LordofHats


Also, am I the only one who thinks the Panzer III just looks adorable? It's so cute.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/26 10:59:24


Post by: Yaraton


 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Yaraton wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
[On top of him also being responsible for the deaths of millions of citizens in purges and Gulags.

What's "Gulag"?

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%93%D0%A3%D0%9B%D0%90%D0%93


I wasn't asking you, was I? I know perfectly well how to use Google. All I wanted to hear from an American how he understands the meaning of "Chief Directorate of Camps".

 Yaraton wrote:
"There is no Fascism in Ukraine." (c) Any western politician.

The West is hypocritical. The West doesn't give a gak about human rights, freedom. democracy or whatever vague things it claims to believe in. All Western countries care for are their national interests. Just like Russia. The difference is that the West is so good at deceit it managed to deceive itself about it It is all a matter of keeping up appearances. The West will happily support nazis, terrorists and radical islamists etc. as long as they can somehow spin the story as those groups being "good guys" fighting the "bad guys" ( "bad guys" usually being whatever government the West has decided it doesn't like and wants to mess up this time). If it does come out those groups are actually quite bad themselves, they can always still say that it is just a minority and that most of them are still "good guys". And who is going to check?


Word.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/26 11:02:23


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


Or we could accept that "the West" is not a homogenous monolith and that there are competing political forces that want different things, but then we'd have to stop assuming that the realist school of thought is absolute at all times, and we can't have that now, can we?


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/26 11:38:15


Post by: Yaraton


 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 Yaraton wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

I expect, foolishly perhaps, an apology.


You won't get any from me. A major civil unrest on the territory with the main Russian Navy Black Sea Fleet base would attract some attention from the proper Russian Intelligence Services. How many were involved - never been disclosed.

So we're back to Whataboutism? Never mind the fact that there was a genocide going on.


Oh please... I like how everything that the West does is "democratic and good" and when it comes to Russia is "totalitarian and bad". The West have opened the Pandora Box and now they have to live with it. As for genocide, I can name at least a couple of other countries where it was happening and the West didn't give a damn. The only difference between those countries and Yugoslavia was the amount of money invested in breaking it apart, just like they do it now in Syria. Giving that the ukrainian neo-Nazis were planning to send the "caravans of friendship" with their armed thugs to show those Russians in Crime their place, I'd say the threat of genocide was real. The burning people in Odessa was a very vivid example what would happen if they are not stopped.


Strawman. I've never said that "the West", whatever that includes, only does things that are democratic and good.

Why does it matter that there were other countries where there were ongoing genocides? You're doubling down on the Whataboutism again. Whether or not the Rwandan genocide, for example, was going on and "the West's" lack of action there is entirely irrelevant to the fact that there was an actual genocide going on in Yugoslavia.


The "West" is opposite of Russia, minus Asia, Africa and South America. In modern media, the "West" deemed to be "free and democratic" and an example of how all things should be.

Why is it important to know where genocide was happening and the West didn't give a damn about it? It is important to show the lying nature of the Western propaganda spread through the mass media about Russia and it's allies. It is important to show that while all sides during the war in Yugoslavia were committing the atrocities, only one side was found and proclaimed guilty of it by the West. Considering that the other sides of the conflict were financed, armed and supported politically by the West no wonder why only Serbian military personal was put on trial and therefore your moral stand of "But there was genocide happening which led to NATO involvement in the conflict" has no moral ground.

You didn't know what the Gulags were, and yet you would presume to compare the EU to the USSR and to lecture us on history? Further, no, not all people from what used to be Yugoslavia say the same thing, because they're people, not some monolithic entity.


Who told you that I didn't know what "G.U.Lag." was? Your vivid imagination? O..K. then.

And yes I would lecture you about the similarities of EU and the Hitlers "United Europe" and why USSR was also similar and different from EU, Its' called "freedom of speech". Look it up.

I'll direct you, for the second time, to my first post in this thread, all the way back from the murky pits of 2014:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
On the other hand, the opposition is partially neo-nazis as well. There's some rather unsavory types on both sides.


If only I knew what "both sides" mean. You mean the separatists parade at night with torches too and use WW2 Nazi symbols? Or you meant the invisible Russian Army, the Junta declared bitten in battles so many times already? Sorry, I didn't see any videos with goose stepping hordes of Russian soldiers in so called "ukraine"'. I'll be very thankful when you provide me with a link so I could educate myself.

Lastly:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


If the little green men weren't Russian, who was supplying and paying them? Putin himself has admitted to Russian personnel being involved.


From your links:

Speaking at an annual televised press conference, Mr Putin denied that “regular forces” were involved in the conflict, but conceded that “people dealing with tasks…in the military sphere,” had been involved in the conflict.

“We never said that there weren’t people there dealing with certain tasks, including in the military sphere,” he said, when challenged by a Ukrainian journalist about two captured Russian officers currently held in Ukraine.

“But that doesn’t mean there are regular Russian forces there. Feel the difference,” he added.


So, you were saying..?

You'll note that I'm not making personal attacks on you or calling your arguments "brain farts" or the like.


You should try, it's so much fun.

I'm still going to insist on demanding an apology.


Read my previous post again.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/26 12:00:03


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


 Yaraton wrote:

Who told you that I didn't know what "G.U.Lag." was? Your vivid imagination? O..K. then.


You asked:

 Yaraton wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
[On top of him also being responsible for the deaths of millions of citizens in purges and Gulags.

What's "Gulag"?


Later context has made clear that you meant to ask what Vaktathi's understanding of the Gulags were, but the way you posted it it looked like a question about what the concept itself meant.

 Yaraton wrote:

Why is it important to know where genocide was happening and the West didn't give a damn about it? It is important to show the lying nature of the Western propaganda spread through the mass media about Russia and it's allies.


I'm not going to deny that there's a disturbing tendency in Western discourse to assume that the West is right and everyone else is wrong; it's the entire point of post-colonial theory after all. That said, I'm sure you have some examples of this "Western propaganda"?

 Yaraton wrote:

And yes I would lecture you about the similarities of EU and the Hitlers "United Europe" and why USSR was also similar and different from EU, Its' called "freedom of speech". Look it up.


Freedom of speech regulates the relationship between states and the speech of its citizens. It has absolutely nothing to do with private exchanges, which you'd known if you'd taken your own advice and looked it up. Further, that's a nice Godwin you've got going there. Hitler and Stalin rounded up political enemies (and loads of others, obviosuly) and shipped them off to camps to die. I've yet to see organized, large-scale incarceration of political dissidents in the EU, let alone genocide. The comparison is silly, at best.
 Yaraton wrote:


 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
On the other hand, the opposition is partially neo-nazis as well. There's some rather unsavory types on both sides.


If only I knew what "both sides" mean. You mean the separatists parade at night with torches too and use WW2 Nazi symbols? Or you meant the invisible Russian Army, the Junta declared bitten in battles so many times already? Sorry, I didn't see any videos with goose stepping hordes of Russian soldiers in so called "ukraine"'. I'll be very thankful when you provide me with a link so I could educate myself.


I can lead a horse to water, but I cannot make it drink. You'll note that the "sides" I was referring to in my quote was the Maidan movement and the then-government of Ukraine under Yanukovych, not Ukraine and Russia. The unsavory types on the government's side ought to be blatantly obvious, with events like snipers opening fire on protesters. If nothing else, the fact that criminal charges immediately were filed against Yulia Tymoshenko and got her incarcerated is telling. I can understand Yanukovych being paranoid, seeing as he's lived through poisoning attempts, but that is not a proper way for a democracy to function.

 Yaraton wrote:


Lastly:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


If the little green men weren't Russian, who was supplying and paying them? Putin himself has admitted to Russian personnel being involved.


From your links:

Speaking at an annual televised press conference, Mr Putin denied that “regular forces” were involved in the conflict, but conceded that “people dealing with tasks…in the military sphere,” had been involved in the conflict.

“We never said that there weren’t people there dealing with certain tasks, including in the military sphere,” he said, when challenged by a Ukrainian journalist about two captured Russian officers currently held in Ukraine.

“But that doesn’t mean there are regular Russian forces there. Feel the difference,” he added.


So, you were saying..?



Since we're selectively quoting now:

But during a television phone-in in April, Mr Putin U-turned, saying “of course our troops stood behind Crimea's self-defence forces


 Yaraton wrote:

You'll note that I'm not making personal attacks on you or calling your arguments "brain farts" or the like.


You should try, it's so much fun.


Even if we ignore that such an action would be against the tenents of this forum, I'd rather not. I don't agree with much of what you say, but I'm not going to pretend that you're not making a coherent argument for the sake of making myself feel better.

 Yaraton wrote:


I'm still going to insist on demanding an apology.


Read my previous post again.


Nope. Apology still expected. Civility in discussion is not optional.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/26 15:42:57


Post by: Wyrmalla


Ignoring the current rise in Russian military spending nonsense and the number of European Visas submitted by Ukrainians being blocked compared to Russians, how about more tanks?

Looks like someone's had the idea to retrofit more T-72s instead of all the T-64s that litter the country finally.


Ukraine's Cold War Era Tanks Refit for Modern Day Warfare




NATO Standard

Ukraine is upgrading its antiquated T-72 tanks to meet NATO standards by fitting them out as the PT-91 "Twardy," Poland's main battle tank. It features advanced armor and a more powerful engine. Although the tanks are not in Ukrainian army service they are used in reserve.




End Of The Line

After Russia presented its state-of-the-art Armata battle tank last year, Ukrainians ridiculed it on social media. "This is a coffin on treads," blogger Mikola Gritsenko wrote on Facebook. Ukraine plans to sell its rival tank, the BM Oplot, for $4.9 million to overseas clients. The price tag on an Armata is about $7.8 million, although no export customers have been lined up. The first exports are planned for 2020, according to Russia's Military Industrial Commission.


Has the Armata even seen combat, or are the Russians content to just parade the things about all day? At least the Oblot has seen combat.

OT, I can that my own Ukrainian tanks' green's a bit too dark. :(

Spoiler:


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/26 15:49:28


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


I'm fairly confident that Russia knows how to build a decent tank. I'd trust Russian expertise over Ukrainian one on that field every day, at any rate.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/26 15:49:41


Post by: LordofHats


I don't think it has. There's thus far been no situation where the Armata could realistically be deployed. Besides, I think they've only made like 2 dozen of the chassis' thus far in two or three of the configurations intended for the platform (which include personnel carriers and such). Maybe if things heat up in the ME, the Armata might end up there but not for a little while.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/26 15:57:17


Post by: Wyrmalla


As far as I can tell the Russians only deployed their older tanks in Syria. Unless someone can contradict me those seen use protecting the airfields rather than being used in many actual battles.

I'll eat my boot in ten years when those things are tested (with Russia's war economy they'll have plenty of opportunities). Right now though, not to say a bad word about the thing (there's worse tanks out there which see actual use...), nobody knows what they'll be like till they see actual use. I just wonder how efficient they'll be for air transport, which the West's tanks are optimized for. Then again, Russia doesn't really fight anyone who doesn't share a border as them.

Heh, they're getting like the Israelis. If you don't have to transport a vehicle half way around the world then you can make it as big and heavy as you like. ...Though the Israelis learned the issue with that when they tried selling their APCs to the United States and South America (the latter failed them because they were so heavy they sunk into the jungle mud).

From a gaming perspective, at least the Russians are making it easy to source minis of that thing in 28mm.

Spoiler:


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/26 16:18:39


Post by: LordofHats


 Wyrmalla wrote:
As far as I can tell the Russians only deployed their older tanks in Syria. Unless someone can contradict me those seen use protecting the airfields rather than being used in many actual battles.


The Armata is probably still undergoing trials and may not be ready yet for combat service. That, and the Russians still have hordes of older tanks, so why risk the new shiny in a conflict where it is arguably overkill?

It's easy to theorize that the Armata is a bust when it's never seen a fight, but people said the same thing about the Abrams before Desert Storm (the 80s) and the Abrams ended up a beast. You never really know until the first shots are fired and bounce of the armor like a paint ball


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/26 16:58:47


Post by: BaronIveagh


 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

I'm not going to deny that there's a disturbing tendency in Western discourse to assume that the West is right and everyone else is wrong; it's the entire point of post-colonial theory after all.


God, don't I know it. I'm sitting here right now trying to write a briefing for some politicians and am pulling my hair out as the bosses want it to be a non-informative puff piece to make the people involved feel good, rather than use the opportunity to point out how the policies in question have failed, and are still failing.

You want how clueless they can be: "Well , who are their heroes' was brought up at the meeting. I had a very hard time not saying 'The people who murder your soldiers and police.'.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/26 17:27:48


Post by: thenoobbomb


 LordofHats wrote:
 Wyrmalla wrote:
As far as I can tell the Russians only deployed their older tanks in Syria. Unless someone can contradict me those seen use protecting the airfields rather than being used in many actual battles.


The Armata is probably still undergoing trials and may not be ready yet for combat service. That, and the Russians still have hordes of older tanks, so why risk the new shiny in a conflict where it is arguably overkill?

It's easy to theorize that the Armata is a bust when it's never seen a fight, but people said the same thing about the Abrams before Desert Storm (the 80s) and the Abrams ended up a beast. You never really know until the first shots are fired and bounce of the armor like a paint ball

Another thing to consider is that the Armata is currently being outfitted with state of the art Active Protection systems.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/26 17:38:13


Post by: Iron_Captain


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

I'm not going to deny that there's a disturbing tendency in Western discourse to assume that the West is right and everyone else is wrong; it's the entire point of post-colonial theory after all.


God, don't I know it. I'm sitting here right now trying to write a briefing for some politicians and am pulling my hair out as the bosses want it to be a non-informative puff piece to make the people involved feel good, rather than use the opportunity to point out how the policies in question have failed, and are still failing.

You want how clueless they can be: "Well , who are their heroes' was brought up at the meeting. I had a very hard time not saying 'The people who murder your soldiers and police.'.

Typical politicians.

 Yaraton wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Yaraton wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
[On top of him also being responsible for the deaths of millions of citizens in purges and Gulags.

What's "Gulag"?

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%93%D0%A3%D0%9B%D0%90%D0%93


I wasn't asking you, was I? I know perfectly well how to use Google. All I wanted to hear from an American how he understands the meaning of "Chief Directorate of Camps".

Then you should have asked for that. I don't think I need to lecture you on English language, but asking "What's Gulag" means you are asking what "Gulag" is, not how someone understands the meaning of "Chief directorate of camps" ( I highly doubt most Americans know what Gulag stands for anyway).
You should have been more specific.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/26 23:05:21


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Iron_Captain wrote:
I highly doubt most Americans know what Gulag stands for anyway).


And here I always thought it was an acronym for Main Camp Administration. In the US and West the term for it was popularized by The Gulag Archipelago by Solzhenitsyn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 thenoobbomb wrote:

Another thing to consider is that the Armata is currently being outfitted with state of the art Active Protection systems.


Remember that ERA protective systems are effectively one shot, no matter how advanced. The second round will still get you.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/27 00:26:51


Post by: Iron_Captain


 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
I highly doubt most Americans know what Gulag stands for anyway).


And here I always thought it was an acronym for Main Camp Administration. In the US and West the term for it was popularized by The Gulag Archipelago by Solzhenitsyn.

It does. But is a lot of variation in how you can translate Russian words. "Main Camp Administration" is a good translation as it covers the meaning, as is "Chief Directorate of Camps". In Russian, GULag stands for ''Glavnoye upravleniye lagerej'', which I would translate to ''Head administration of camps". The root "glav" in glavnoye literally means head, but it is often translated to chief, main or some other English word that covers the meaning in this sense. Upravleniye can translate to administration, but also directorate or management. is made up of the root "pravo" which has a meaning of law or right and the prefix '"u" which conveys "awayness". I guess you could literally translate it to "where rules go from" or something like that, so administration and directorate both cover the meaning. Lager is simply a loanword from German which means camp (In German it also often means storage).
So yeah, pretty much any translation that covers the meaning of the Russian phrase would be correct.

Gulag Archipelago was a good book. We had to read it in school. It always surprises me that people in Western countries are interested in Russian literature, considering that they barely seem to read their own
The title doesn't translate really well into English though (it rhymes in Russian).


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/27 01:06:04


Post by: LordofHats


There's quite a few books from Russia quite famous in the West. Doctor Zhivago, War and Peace, the previously mentioned Gulag Archipelago, and The Protocols of the Elders of Zion (an ironic one really ) to name a few.

Most Russian books familiar to the west today are from the pre-Cold War era for what are probably obvious reasons. Also, we read plenty of literature in the west It's just that 90% of everything we make is crud


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/27 12:24:04


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Iron_Captain wrote:
It always surprises me that people in Western countries are interested in Russian literature, considering that they barely seem to read their own


It's true of most imported literature. It costs money to get it translated, so they tend to only bring the good stuff. I'll be generous and say that only 75% of what you read in a given country written by it's native writers is crap.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/27 14:40:42


Post by: Wyrmalla


Of the recently imported translated stuff which I've read, I've taken to having a scoring system. There should be at least one dig at the US or racist comment without any context. I'm looking at you The Night Watch, Metro 2033 and S.T.A.L.K.E.R. (though the later's two's writers come from all over, and Metro 2034 subverts racist expectations a tad with its example).


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/30 01:30:17


Post by: Yaraton


You asked:


Later context has made clear that you meant to ask what Vaktathi's understanding of the Gulags were, but the way you posted it it looked like a question about what the concept itself meant.


I know what I was asking. The more important part is was I asking you or somebody else? Perhaps I was asking a specific question to a specific person to lay proper foundation to deliver a fatal blow to what I consider a complete nonsense. I bet you never thought of that.

I'm not going to deny that there's a disturbing tendency in Western discourse to assume that the West is right and everyone else is wrong; it's the entire point of post-colonial theory after all. That said, I'm sure you have some examples of this "Western propaganda"?


I am yet to see any Western media or a government agency to make a positive and informative statement about Russia. I think we need the End of the World type of scenario to see that happened.

Prime example of lies:




Freedom of speech regulates the relationship between states and the speech of its citizens. It has absolutely nothing to do with private exchanges, which you'd known if you'd taken your own advice and looked it up. Further, that's a nice Godwin you've got going there. Hitler and Stalin rounded up political enemies (and loads of others, obviosuly) and shipped them off to camps to die. I've yet to see organized, large-scale incarceration of political dissidents in the EU, let alone genocide. The comparison is silly, at best.


"Freedom of speech is the right to communicate one's opinions and ideas without fear of government retaliation or censorship." It has nothing to between the people and the government, it is about people expressing themselves and the government protecting that right. You should look it up.

I can lead a horse to water, but I cannot make it drink. You'll note that the "sides" I was referring to in my quote was the Maidan movement and the then-government of Ukraine under Yanukovych, not Ukraine and Russia. The unsavory types on the government's side ought to be blatantly obvious, with events like snipers opening fire on protesters. If nothing else, the fact that criminal charges immediately were filed against Yulia Tymoshenko and got her incarcerated is telling. I can understand Yanukovych being paranoid, seeing as he's lived through poisoning attempts, but that is not a proper way for a democracy to function.


First of all, "the unsavory types on the [former] government's side" hadn't anything to do with Nazi ideology, unlike the CIA-payed thugs that are currently in charge. Second, although "snipers opening fire on protesters" is a fact, it had nothing to do with the government:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/ukraine-kiev-snipers-reportedly-hired-by-opposition-leaders-not-yanukovich-according-to-bugged-call-9171328.html
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/31/ukrainian-investigations-into-kiev-clashes-lacked-independence
http://www.globalresearch.ca/kiev-sniper-shootings-lies-v-truth/5376664

which was known for quite a while in the Russian press but was lied about in the Western media in the beginning of the Juntas takeover. Refer to my statement about anti-Russian propaganda campaign.
Thirdly, charges were filed against Tymoshenko because she is a thief and corrupt politician who stole tens of millions dollars from her people while being the Deputy Prime Minister for fuel and energy in the and then as the Prime Minister . Forth, Yanukovych never been poisoned, you are talking about his predecessor - Yushchenko who came to power in the nationalist coup ("Orange revolution") but failed as a president due to the corruption scandals and lost fair and square to Yanukovych. Your grip on the modern history is rather... patchy, to say the least.

Since we're selectively quoting now:

But during a television phone-in in April, Mr Putin U-turned, saying “of course our troops stood behind Crimea's self-defence forces


I don't see how undercover SF operators and military intelligence agents cease to be "troops". Your quote doesn't contradict what I said previously and thus irrelevant.

Even if we ignore that such an action would be against the tenents of this forum, I'd rather not. I don't agree with much of what you say, but I'm not going to pretend that you're not making a coherent argument for the sake of making myself feel better.

Oh well, at least I've tried. Don't say I didn't offer.

Nope. Apology still expected. Civility in discussion is not optional.


I will apologize when I see that I was wrong. Right now it's not the case.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Murdered: Lawyer for Russian fighter kidnapped, 'drugged, wired to a bomb' in Ukraine

Aleksandrov was defended at the ongoing trial by lawyer Yury Grabovsky. He went missing on March 6 in Kiev and found dead on Friday. Investigators say he was kidnapped and later killed.

The lawyer’s body was found buried in an abandoned orchard near the town of Zhashkov about 100 km south of the Ukrainian capital, Ukraine’s chief military prosecutor, Anatoly Matios, told the media. Grabovsky’s grave was found after investigators followed a lead from one of his suspected killers.

The investigators say that Grabovsky was kidnapped in Kiev, transported to Odessa, a port city in southern Ukraine, and later to Zhashkov. The abductors said they used an ankle bracelet rigged with explosives to keep their victim compliant.


https://www.rt.com/news/337189-lawyer-russian-killed-ukraine/

Slain lawyer for Russian fighter ‘promised’ to give up case in video released by Ukraine prosecutor

The video filmed with a mobile phone shows seemingly frazzled Grabovsky promising an unknown person to give up his case defending Russian Aleksandr Aleksandrov, who had been charged with involvement in terrorism activity in Ukraine.

“I promise and oblige to stop legal aid to the accused,” Grabovsky says in the video. When the person behind the camera asks the lawyer why he has made such a decision, Grabovsky answers: “I find it impossible to further defend him in this case.”

“Have you realized [your] mistake?” the person with a male voice then asks the lawyer, who answers positively. The video finishes with a “thank you” from the unknown interrogator.

Having presented the video at a briefing on Tuesday, Ukraine’s military prosecutor Anatoly Matios said the investigators came in possession of it through access to iCloud, registered under the name of one of the killers. He added that there are several more videos, but refused to comment further.

“We can see that [Grabovsky] made this statement against his own will. It is obvious that any person can be forced into saying whatever [another] one likes,” Aleksandrov’s new lawyer, Valentin Rybin, told TASS news agency.

The prosecutor has previously said that the slain lawyer had been possibly kept drugged by his abductors prior to his murder.


https://www.rt.com/news/337681-ukraine-slain-lawyer-video/

So much freedom and democracy...

P.S. "Gulag Archipelago" is piece of fictional literature which has nothing to do with the reality.



Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/30 03:08:43


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Yaraton wrote:

Murdered: Lawyer for Russian fighter kidnapped, 'drugged, wired to a bomb' in Ukraine

Aleksandrov was defended at the ongoing trial by lawyer Yury Grabovsky. He went missing on March 6 in Kiev and found dead on Friday. Investigators say he was kidnapped and later killed.

The lawyer’s body was found buried in an abandoned orchard near the town of Zhashkov about 100 km south of the Ukrainian capital, Ukraine’s chief military prosecutor, Anatoly Matios, told the media. Grabovsky’s grave was found after investigators followed a lead from one of his suspected killers.

The investigators say that Grabovsky was kidnapped in Kiev, transported to Odessa, a port city in southern Ukraine, and later to Zhashkov. The abductors said they used an ankle bracelet rigged with explosives to keep their victim compliant.


https://www.rt.com/news/337189-lawyer-russian-killed-ukraine/

Slain lawyer for Russian fighter ‘promised’ to give up case in video released by Ukraine prosecutor

The video filmed with a mobile phone shows seemingly frazzled Grabovsky promising an unknown person to give up his case defending Russian Aleksandr Aleksandrov, who had been charged with involvement in terrorism activity in Ukraine.

“I promise and oblige to stop legal aid to the accused,” Grabovsky says in the video. When the person behind the camera asks the lawyer why he has made such a decision, Grabovsky answers: “I find it impossible to further defend him in this case.”

“Have you realized [your] mistake?” the person with a male voice then asks the lawyer, who answers positively. The video finishes with a “thank you” from the unknown interrogator.

Having presented the video at a briefing on Tuesday, Ukraine’s military prosecutor Anatoly Matios said the investigators came in possession of it through access to iCloud, registered under the name of one of the killers. He added that there are several more videos, but refused to comment further.

“We can see that [Grabovsky] made this statement against his own will. It is obvious that any person can be forced into saying whatever [another] one likes,” Aleksandrov’s new lawyer, Valentin Rybin, told TASS news agency.

The prosecutor has previously said that the slain lawyer had been possibly kept drugged by his abductors prior to his murder.


https://www.rt.com/news/337681-ukraine-slain-lawyer-video/

So much freedom and democracy...

Yup, that is how things go in Ukraine nowadays... The place is disintegrating more and more into mob rule and vigilante justice with every day.


 Yaraton wrote:

P.S. "Gulag Archipelago" is piece of fictional literature which has nothing to do with the reality.


Are you really calling one of the greatest Russian writers in modern times a liar?


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/30 04:07:20


Post by: Yaraton


 Iron_Captain wrote:
Are you really calling one of the greatest Russian writers in modern times a liar?


Fantasy writers are not "liars", they have vivid imagination.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/30 09:20:02


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Yaraton wrote:
Perhaps I was asking a specific question to a specific person to lay proper foundation to deliver a fatal blow to what I consider a complete nonsense. I bet you never thought of that.


Perhaps this is a lot of retroactive ass covering for having made yourself look like a moron instead? I bet you never thought of that.

 Yaraton wrote:

I don't see how undercover SF operators and military intelligence agents cease to be "troops".


The Black Sea Fleet got it's medals for involvement, and we have their first hand accounts of marching in and occupying areas, so.... I'll say it was probably more than just some operatives and agitators.

Interestingly, and this is most likely an oversight, but the medal states Feb 20th as the beginning of the Russian campaign to return Crimea.

Wasn't that the date that mystery snipers opened fire on protestors and started that messy rioting that overthrew the then government of the Ukraine?


 Yaraton wrote:

Fantasy writers are not "liars", they have vivid imagination.


And denial isn't just a river in Egypt. I'm sure if you were a Hitler fanboy rather than a Stalin one, we'd be hearing what vivid imaginations Jews have.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/30 14:29:41


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Yaraton wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
Are you really calling one of the greatest Russian writers in modern times a liar?


Fantasy writers are not "liars", they have vivid imagination.

As do you, it seems.
But I take Solzhenitsyn's imagination of Gulag as more credible than that of a random guy from Canada on an internet forum about toy soldiers.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/30 14:54:31


Post by: thenoobbomb


 reds8n wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3515146/I-m-going-shoot-mother-er-Shock-footage-soldier-blasting-Koran-machine-gun-FAKED-Valdimir-Putin-s-anti-America-troll-factory.html


..good grief.



Valdimir Putin's




This is nothing new or special, and both "sides" are guilty of producing propaganda or misreporting things/leaving details out, etc.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/30 20:42:16


Post by: Yaraton


 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Yaraton wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
Are you really calling one of the greatest Russian writers in modern times a liar?


Fantasy writers are not "liars", they have vivid imagination.

As do you, it seems.
But I take Solzhenitsyn's imagination of Gulag as more credible than that of a random guy from Canada on an internet forum about toy soldiers.


Good for you. Not that it changes anything for me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 reds8n wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3515146/I-m-going-shoot-mother-er-Shock-footage-soldier-blasting-Koran-machine-gun-FAKED-Valdimir-Putin-s-anti-America-troll-factory.html


..good grief.



Who is that moron, who thought that posting a video of an "American soldier", dressed like an airsofter Delta wannabe and shooting Koran with an AK 100s series is going to fly? I smell a rat that secretly works for CIA. It was just too easy to debunk and made it into "OMG Kremlin troll factory at it again!"


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/30 23:18:51


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Yaraton wrote:

Good for you. Not that it changes anything for me.


Yeah, you collect your 40,000 rubles a month regardless of the pros or cons of a given author.


This is hardly news though:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/maxseddon/documents-show-how-russias-troll-army-hit-america#.npMEmdjme


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/31 09:20:48


Post by: Freakazoitt


US soldier with civilian Saiga carbine? what's the point?

And how to join Troll Army? I need money


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/31 09:43:40


Post by: Yaraton


That's Saiga? Damn, those morons didn't even try hard enough.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/31 11:23:06


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Freakazoitt wrote:
US soldier with civilian Saiga carbine? what's the point?

And how to join Troll Army? I need money

Wait, I could get paid for making these posts on Dakka? I want to join Troll Army too!
But for all the 'reporting' Western media does about it, it seems to be impossible to actually find... :(


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/31 12:42:42


Post by: Ustrello


Well RT being the mouth piece of the Russian government I am pretty sure it wouldn't be reported there


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/31 13:35:23


Post by: Sgt_Scruffy


 Ustrello wrote:
Well RT being the mouth piece of the Russian government I am pretty sure it wouldn't be reported there


If it's not reported in RT, it isn't true, or so some people in this thread seem to believe.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/31 16:37:12


Post by: Yaraton


Please don't post spammy nothings, thanks. Rule 2


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/03/31 20:54:16


Post by: BaronIveagh


Clearly a court 'rigged' by the 'west...

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35933468



Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/01 00:42:27


Post by: Vaktathi


I'm still wondering how he got off, like...he's on camera, in multiple instances from both Western and non-Western media, from even back in like 1995, having talked about organizing the attack & massacre on Zvornik, ethnically cleansing northeastern Bosnia, etc and about how his militias did such a great job through it all.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/01 00:48:10


Post by: Iron_Captain


 BaronIveagh wrote:
Clearly a court 'rigged' by the 'west...

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35933468


And how would this change that perception? Seselj should never have been brought before that court in the first place as he was clearly innocent. Meanwhile, people who were obviously guilty, such as Gotovina have been released. The ICTY is a typical example of victor's justice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Vaktathi wrote:
I'm still wondering how he got off, like...he's on camera, in multiple instances from both Western and non-Western media, from even back in like 1995, having talked about organizing the attack & massacre on Zvornik, ethnically cleansing northeastern Bosnia, etc and about how his militias did such a great job through it all.

Because that is all he did. Talking. He never actually did anything nor was actually in charge of any armed group. He was nothing but a loudmouth ultranationalist politician with despicable ideas, not an actual war criminal.
He really reminds me of Zhirinovsky...


You can read the summary of the trial here: http://www.icty.org/x/cases/seselj/tjug/en/160331_judgement_summary.pdf


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/01 00:54:26


Post by: LordofHats


 Vaktathi wrote:
I'm still wondering how he got off, like...he's on camera, in multiple instances from both Western and non-Western media, from even back in like 1995, having talked about organizing the attack & massacre on Zvornik, ethnically cleansing northeastern Bosnia, etc and about how his militias did such a great job through it all.


Welcome to International courts. They're kind of ridiculous that way

I still remember that guy from Macedonia. What's his name? He had those Pakistanis murdered by his SWAT team (who had some Mussolini quote as their slogan) and made up some story about how he'd stop a terrorist plot. That guy got off too, and it was absolutely ridiculous.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/01 01:45:30


Post by: Vaktathi


 Iron_Captain wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Clearly a court 'rigged' by the 'west...

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35933468


And how would this change that perception? Seselj should never have been brought before that court in the first place as he was clearly innocent. Meanwhile, people who were obviously guilty, such as Gotovina have been released. The ICTY is a typical example of victor's justice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Vaktathi wrote:
I'm still wondering how he got off, like...he's on camera, in multiple instances from both Western and non-Western media, from even back in like 1995, having talked about organizing the attack & massacre on Zvornik, ethnically cleansing northeastern Bosnia, etc and about how his militias did such a great job through it all.

Because that is all he did. Talking. He never actually did anything nor was actually in charge of any armed group. He was nothing but a loudmouth ultranationalist politician with despicable ideas, not an actual war criminal.
He really reminds me of Zhirinovsky...
Interesting...that's a somewhat odd turn, but an amusing one, someone talking themselves into war crimes charges by being an donkey-cave and claiming to have been in charge of a bunch of terrible people and acts...but really was just a rear-echelon blowhard. Sad...but amusing.

 LordofHats wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
I'm still wondering how he got off, like...he's on camera, in multiple instances from both Western and non-Western media, from even back in like 1995, having talked about organizing the attack & massacre on Zvornik, ethnically cleansing northeastern Bosnia, etc and about how his militias did such a great job through it all.


Welcome to International courts. They're kind of ridiculous that way

I still remember that guy from Macedonia. What's his name? He had those Pakistanis murdered by his SWAT team (who had some Mussolini quote as their slogan) and made up some story about how he'd stop a terrorist plot. That guy got off too, and it was absolutely ridiculous.
Hrm, I'm not familiar with that incident, was it relatively recent?


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/01 01:58:02


Post by: LordofHats


Nah. This was back in like 2002-2003.

The incident recently featured in a Cracked article (#4) which is why I remembered it, though apparently not accurately. Ljube Boškoski was not brought before the Hague for the Raštanski Lozja incident but on other charges that happened during the Albanian Insurgency in Macedonia beforehand.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/01 10:31:27


Post by: thenoobbomb


 reds8n wrote:
http://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-news/news/rupert-murdochs-ex-wife-wendi-deng-is-dating-vladimir-putin-w200077


...not enough mind bleach in all the world.

Clearly this is totally true and not an April Fools joke at all!


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/07 07:57:13


Post by: Wyrmalla


And in Russia Putin's restructuring the National guard and internal services. Looks like they're turning it into something like OMON. Huh, time to like this to the Panama Papers thread?

Azov's came out with another homebrew tank. They're calling this one the T-rex. No, it doesn't look WWII era German at all.




Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/10 21:49:45


Post by: Wyrmalla


The man who came in to make "the tough decisions which nobody would like" is on his way out. As the guy with Western backing some people'll be looking a bit red faced over this. ...Especially that he's inexplicably a Billion dollars richer that he was before Euromaidan.


Ukraine Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk to resign.

The Ukrainian Prime Minister, Arseniy Yatsenyuk, has announced he will resign next week, blaming politicians' failure to enact "real changes".


Mr Yatsenyuk, in office since former pro-Russian President Viktor Yanukovych was ousted in February 2014, said he would inform parliament on Tuesday.
The current President, Petro Poroshenko, asked him to quit in February, saying he had lost support.
His government has been accused of inaction and corruption.

The International Monetary Fund (IMF) has threatened to withhold aid money if it does not carry out reforms.


Resignation tweet by Arseniy YatsenyukImage copyrightother

Parliamentary Speaker Volodymyr Groysman has been nominated by Mr Poroshenko's party to replace Mr Yatsenyuk.
Announcing his resignation on Twitter, Mr Yatsenyuk called for the formation of a new government immediately to prevent "destabilization of [the] executive branch during a war".
The government in Kiev is signed up to an uneasy truce with pro-Russian rebels in two of Ukraine's eastern regions, with frequent ceasefire violations reported.
Russia itself annexed the southern region of Crimea two years ago after a controversial referendum on self-determination.
US Vice-President Joe Biden, in a call to Mr Yatsenyuk on Sunday, congratulated him on "accomplishments over the past two years", including economic reforms, but said "these changes must be irreversible".

Poroshenko's chance: Analysis by Tom Burridge, BBC News, Lviv


Ukrainian Parliament Speaker Volodymyr Groysman attends a parliament session in Kiev, Ukraine, March 29, 2016Image copyrightReuters
Image caption

Volodymyr Groysman is next in line

Arseniy Yatsenyuk's resignation comes as no surprise. According to opinion polls, his party's popularity had plummeted and he narrowly survived a vote of no confidence in parliament in February.
President Petro Poroshenko could now consolidate his power if he can install Volodymyr Groysman, a member of his own party, as the next prime minister.

Mr Poroshenko and a new government will be under intense pressure, both from Ukraine's European and American partners, and the Ukrainian people, to implement real reform.
Several high-profile reformers have left the government in recent weeks, claiming it was failing to tackle corruption.

"As of today," Mr Yatsenyuk tweeted on Sunday, "my goals are broader: new electoral law, Constitutional reform, Judicial reform, Ukraine's membership in the EU and NATO."

Ukraine's EU ambitions suffered a setback on 6 April when voters in the Netherlands roundly rejected a landmark EU trade deal with the former Soviet state in a referendum.
Dutch referendum a difficult result for EU and Ukraine

Mr Yatsenyuk came to power promising to tackle corruption and implement economic reforms but has increasingly become the focus of accusations of corruption, even though no concrete evidence was produced.

Western governments have expressed concern over the resignation of reform-minded figures from the government.

President Poroshenko himself came under scrutiny this week after leaked documents suggested he had set up an offshore company as a tax haven using Panamanian legal firm Mossack Fonseca.
He said he had done nothing wrong and Ukrainian prosecution officials said there was no evidence of a crime but there were calls for his impeachment.


As the Russian internet is putting it...

Spoiler:
"Sorry gentlemen, now it is high time for me to leave"



Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/11 02:31:11


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Wyrmalla wrote:
The man who came in to make "the tough decisions which nobody would like" is on his way out. As the guy with Western backing some people'll be looking a bit red faced over this. ...Especially that he's inexplicably a Billion dollars richer that he was before Euromaidan.

Spoiler:

Ukraine Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk to resign.

The Ukrainian Prime Minister, Arseniy Yatsenyuk, has announced he will resign next week, blaming politicians' failure to enact "real changes".


Mr Yatsenyuk, in office since former pro-Russian President Viktor Yanukovych was ousted in February 2014, said he would inform parliament on Tuesday.
The current President, Petro Poroshenko, asked him to quit in February, saying he had lost support.
His government has been accused of inaction and corruption.

The International Monetary Fund (IMF) has threatened to withhold aid money if it does not carry out reforms.


Resignation tweet by Arseniy YatsenyukImage copyrightother

Parliamentary Speaker Volodymyr Groysman has been nominated by Mr Poroshenko's party to replace Mr Yatsenyuk.
Announcing his resignation on Twitter, Mr Yatsenyuk called for the formation of a new government immediately to prevent "destabilization of [the] executive branch during a war".
The government in Kiev is signed up to an uneasy truce with pro-Russian rebels in two of Ukraine's eastern regions, with frequent ceasefire violations reported.
Russia itself annexed the southern region of Crimea two years ago after a controversial referendum on self-determination.
US Vice-President Joe Biden, in a call to Mr Yatsenyuk on Sunday, congratulated him on "accomplishments over the past two years", including economic reforms, but said "these changes must be irreversible".

Poroshenko's chance: Analysis by Tom Burridge, BBC News, Lviv


Ukrainian Parliament Speaker Volodymyr Groysman attends a parliament session in Kiev, Ukraine, March 29, 2016Image copyrightReuters
Image caption

Volodymyr Groysman is next in line

Arseniy Yatsenyuk's resignation comes as no surprise. According to opinion polls, his party's popularity had plummeted and he narrowly survived a vote of no confidence in parliament in February.
President Petro Poroshenko could now consolidate his power if he can install Volodymyr Groysman, a member of his own party, as the next prime minister.

Mr Poroshenko and a new government will be under intense pressure, both from Ukraine's European and American partners, and the Ukrainian people, to implement real reform.
Several high-profile reformers have left the government in recent weeks, claiming it was failing to tackle corruption.

"As of today," Mr Yatsenyuk tweeted on Sunday, "my goals are broader: new electoral law, Constitutional reform, Judicial reform, Ukraine's membership in the EU and NATO."

Ukraine's EU ambitions suffered a setback on 6 April when voters in the Netherlands roundly rejected a landmark EU trade deal with the former Soviet state in a referendum.
Dutch referendum a difficult result for EU and Ukraine

Mr Yatsenyuk came to power promising to tackle corruption and implement economic reforms but has increasingly become the focus of accusations of corruption, even though no concrete evidence was produced.

Western governments have expressed concern over the resignation of reform-minded figures from the government.

President Poroshenko himself came under scrutiny this week after leaked documents suggested he had set up an offshore company as a tax haven using Panamanian legal firm Mossack Fonseca.
He said he had done nothing wrong and Ukrainian prosecution officials said there was no evidence of a crime but there were calls for his impeachment.


As the Russian internet is putting it...

[spoiler] "Sorry gentlemen, now it is high time for me to leave"


[/spoiler]

Yatsenyuk is a smart man. He may be a rat who abandons a sinking ship, but he is a very rich rat now
He can now retire somewhere nice (i.e. far from Ukraine) and be safe when the whole thing inevitably comes down. Meanwhile, Groysman, his replacement is just as corrupt, if not worse (this is Ukraine, so it is probably going to be worse) He is also a Jew, which won't sit well with certain influential "elements" in the country.

And Putin's national guard is only interesting in that it answers to Putin personally, rather than to the FSB. Apart from that it is just another tool in the heroic and glorious fight to save Holy Mother Russia from evil terrorists and organised criminals such as Navalny and Pussy Riot. Also interesting is that the law specifically does not allow them to shoot pregnant women, disabled people, kids and crowds. "Don't worry however comrade praporshchik, shooting people who are not in crowds is still totally fine!"


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/11 02:35:25


Post by: oldravenman3025


 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Wyrmalla wrote:
The man who came in to make "the tough decisions which nobody would like" is on his way out. As the guy with Western backing some people'll be looking a bit red faced over this. ...Especially that he's inexplicably a Billion dollars richer that he was before Euromaidan.

Spoiler:

Ukraine Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk to resign.

The Ukrainian Prime Minister, Arseniy Yatsenyuk, has announced he will resign next week, blaming politicians' failure to enact "real changes".


Mr Yatsenyuk, in office since former pro-Russian President Viktor Yanukovych was ousted in February 2014, said he would inform parliament on Tuesday.
The current President, Petro Poroshenko, asked him to quit in February, saying he had lost support.
His government has been accused of inaction and corruption.

The International Monetary Fund (IMF) has threatened to withhold aid money if it does not carry out reforms.


Resignation tweet by Arseniy YatsenyukImage copyrightother

Parliamentary Speaker Volodymyr Groysman has been nominated by Mr Poroshenko's party to replace Mr Yatsenyuk.
Announcing his resignation on Twitter, Mr Yatsenyuk called for the formation of a new government immediately to prevent "destabilization of [the] executive branch during a war".
The government in Kiev is signed up to an uneasy truce with pro-Russian rebels in two of Ukraine's eastern regions, with frequent ceasefire violations reported.
Russia itself annexed the southern region of Crimea two years ago after a controversial referendum on self-determination.
US Vice-President Joe Biden, in a call to Mr Yatsenyuk on Sunday, congratulated him on "accomplishments over the past two years", including economic reforms, but said "these changes must be irreversible".

Poroshenko's chance: Analysis by Tom Burridge, BBC News, Lviv


Ukrainian Parliament Speaker Volodymyr Groysman attends a parliament session in Kiev, Ukraine, March 29, 2016Image copyrightReuters
Image caption

Volodymyr Groysman is next in line

Arseniy Yatsenyuk's resignation comes as no surprise. According to opinion polls, his party's popularity had plummeted and he narrowly survived a vote of no confidence in parliament in February.
President Petro Poroshenko could now consolidate his power if he can install Volodymyr Groysman, a member of his own party, as the next prime minister.

Mr Poroshenko and a new government will be under intense pressure, both from Ukraine's European and American partners, and the Ukrainian people, to implement real reform.
Several high-profile reformers have left the government in recent weeks, claiming it was failing to tackle corruption.

"As of today," Mr Yatsenyuk tweeted on Sunday, "my goals are broader: new electoral law, Constitutional reform, Judicial reform, Ukraine's membership in the EU and NATO."

Ukraine's EU ambitions suffered a setback on 6 April when voters in the Netherlands roundly rejected a landmark EU trade deal with the former Soviet state in a referendum.
Dutch referendum a difficult result for EU and Ukraine

Mr Yatsenyuk came to power promising to tackle corruption and implement economic reforms but has increasingly become the focus of accusations of corruption, even though no concrete evidence was produced.

Western governments have expressed concern over the resignation of reform-minded figures from the government.

President Poroshenko himself came under scrutiny this week after leaked documents suggested he had set up an offshore company as a tax haven using Panamanian legal firm Mossack Fonseca.
He said he had done nothing wrong and Ukrainian prosecution officials said there was no evidence of a crime but there were calls for his impeachment.


As the Russian internet is putting it...

[spoiler] "Sorry gentlemen, now it is high time for me to leave"


[/spoiler]

Yatsenyuk is a smart man. He may be a rat who abandons a sinking ship, but he is a very rich rat now
He can now retire somewhere nice (i.e. far from Ukraine) and be safe when the whole thing inevitably comes down. Meanwhile, Groysman, his replacement is just as corrupt, if not worse (this is Ukraine, so it is probably going to be worse) He is also a Jew, which won't sit well with certain influential "elements" in the country.

And Putin's national guard is only interesting in that it answers to Putin personally, rather than to the FSB. Apart from that it is just another tool in the heroic and glorious fight to save Holy Mother Russia from evil terrorists and organised criminals such as Navalny and Pussy Riot. Also interesting is that the law specifically does not allow them to shoot pregnant women, disabled people, kids and crowds. I know this was meant to be reassuring, but it makes me slightly worried instead. Apparently it is totally fine for them to shoot people as long as they aren't in crowds...




I take it that you're not a big fan of Vladimir Vladimirovich?


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/11 02:36:53


Post by: Iron_Captain


 oldravenman3025 wrote:
I take it that you're not a big fan of Vladimir Vladimirovich?

He is my greatest hero. He saved Russia and liberated my hometown.
He might be a god too...


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/11 02:52:20


Post by: oldravenman3025


 Iron_Captain wrote:
 oldravenman3025 wrote:
I take it that you're not a big fan of Vladimir Vladimirovich?

He is my greatest hero. He saved Russia and liberated my hometown.
He might be a god too...



I might not agree with all his moves on the international stage since he's been in power, I do admire his drive and grit. Plus the fact that he understands realpolitik and doesn't take gak from anyone.


This is my favorite Putinism:






I remember watching that and laughed my ass off.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/11 15:50:25


Post by: Freakazoitt



Another view of new tank.
Reminds me a German E-50 project (because it's designed by AZOV )


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/12 00:22:26


Post by: oldravenman3025


 Freakazoitt wrote:

Another view of new tank.
Reminds me a German E-50 project (because it's designed by AZOV )



It looks more like they took a BMP, BTR 50, or MT-LB, and added armor and a main tank gun to me. Or even a trumped up PT-76.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/12 01:12:30


Post by: Vaktathi


 Freakazoitt wrote:

Another view of new tank.
Reminds me a German E-50 project (because it's designed by AZOV )
I doubt highly that 70 year old German tank designs that never made it much past a drawing board are actively informing any modern design efforts. That said, the thing does look rather goofy, like a Lego tank scaled up to full size


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/12 01:38:16


Post by: Co'tor Shas


I'd sort of like the turret design, cool sloped edges. Dunno how effective it would be though.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/12 02:17:05


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Vaktathi wrote:
I doubt highly that 70 year old German tank designs that never made it much past a drawing board are actively informing any modern design efforts.


Ehhh..... actually... the same people behind the E-50 also produced the Leopard series MBT. And the minds behind it worship nazis, supposedly, so.... yeah.

In all honesty though it more closely resembles the proposed Indien Panzer, designed by Benz and Porche. The turret armor is more angular. The way they have the turret laid out, frontal angles have minimal ERA protection though. That's bad in this age of high accuracy shaped munitions. Depending on the type of ERA on the front slope, that *might* protect it. but I'm dubious.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/12 14:42:00


Post by: Iron_Captain


They are never going to actually make it anyways. If they actually get this thing built and working properly, I will change my avatar to a picture of Poroshenko rather than Putin.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/13 14:38:35


Post by: Freakazoitt




Ukrainian army brought Earthshaker into the conflict zone

It looks dangerously

Spoiler:
Fortunately, it can not shoot


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/13 14:41:33


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Freakazoitt wrote:


Ukrainian army brought Earthshaker into the conflict zone

It looks dangerously

Spoiler:
Fortunately, it can not shoot

Just like 90% of Ukrainian equipment


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/13 15:26:27


Post by: Ustrello


Looks like the Russians are now capturing UN people now

https://www.yahoo.com/news/un-employee-captured-ukraine-rebels-104047263.html


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/13 15:44:02


Post by: Iron_Captain



What Russians? There is no mention of Russians at all in the article.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/13 15:45:36


Post by: Ustrello


Russians pro russian rebels same thing different name


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/13 16:09:39


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Ustrello wrote:
Russians pro russian rebels same thing different name

That is just dumb.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/13 16:13:35


Post by: Ustrello


Tell that to the Russians going home in body bags


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/13 16:22:05


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Ustrello wrote:
Tell that to the Russians going home in body bags

And how does the presence of Russian citizens amongst the rebels make the rebels and Russians the same thing with a different name?


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/13 16:31:09


Post by: Ustrello


 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Ustrello wrote:
Tell that to the Russians going home in body bags

And how does the presence of Russian citizens amongst the rebels make the rebels and Russians the same thing with a different name?


*russian army units ftfy


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/13 16:33:40


Post by: Tyran


That still doesn't makes them the same.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/13 17:49:53


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Ustrello wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Ustrello wrote:
Tell that to the Russians going home in body bags

And how does the presence of Russian citizens amongst the rebels make the rebels and Russians the same thing with a different name?


*russian army units ftfy

Even if the entire Russian army were deployed to Donbass, that still would not make the Russians and the rebels the same thing.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/13 21:47:14


Post by: BaronIveagh




That one might not shoot, but Stalin's Sledgehammer there was produced up into the 1990's and the Ukrainians have been using the 2S7M Malka, it's 203mm grandchild.

*sigh* That old B-4 makes me nostalgic for some reason.




.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/13 21:58:23


Post by: Easy E


Is this a good place to post about the SU-24 fly-by of the US Destroyer Donald Cook?

http://www.militarytimes.com/story/military/2016/04/13/russian-su-24-attack-aircraft-us-navy-destroyer-donald-cook-baltic-sea/82979184/


In one of the most aggressive actions in recent memory, Russian warplanes conducted “simulated attacks” on the a U.S. Navy vessel in the Baltic Sea on Tuesday, repeatedly flying within 30 feet of the ship, according to a defense official.

Sailors aboard the destroyer Donald Cook said the aircraft flew low enough to create wake in the sea waters surrounding the ship, and the ship’s commanding officer said the incident was “unsafe and unprofessional,” the defense official said.

“This was more aggressive than anything we’ve seen in some time,” according to the defense official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because U.S. officials have not officially disclosed the incidents.

Sailors aboard the ship described the Sukhoi Russian Su-24 as “wings clean,” meaning there were no visible bombs or armaments on the aircraft, the defense official said.

The nature of the overflight as a “simulated attack” may violate a 1973 treaty between the U.S. and Russia that specifically prohibits this type of maneuver, the defense official said.


NAVY TIMES
War of words erupts after DDG's encounter with Russians

The maneuver was one of several aggressive moves by Russian aircraft on Monday and Tuesday.

Shortly after leaving the Polish port of Gdynia, near Gdansk, on Monday, the Donald Cook at was sea in international waters conducting flight operations with a Polish helicopter, part of routine joint training exercises with the NATO ally.

During those flight operations, a Russian Sukhoi Su-24 combat aircraft appeared and conducted about 20 overflights, coming within 1,000 yards of the ship at an altitude of about 100 feet, the defense official said. In response, the commander of the Donald Cook suspended flight operations.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/13 22:07:03


Post by: Iron_Captain


 BaronIveagh wrote:


That one might not shoot, but Stalin's Sledgehammer there was produced up into the 1990's and the Ukrainians have been using the 2S7M Malka, it's 203mm grandchild.

*sigh* That old B-4 makes me nostalgic for some reason.




.

Damn it Baron, you know that song is too catchy, now you got it stuck in my head! artilleristy, stalin dal prikaz... I can't get it out anymore. iz soten tysyach batarej... I can't think of anything else anymore... za nashu rodinu agon'! agon'!
People are looking at me weirdly now...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Easy E wrote:
Is this a good place to post about the SU-24 fly-by of the US Destroyer Donald Cook?

http://www.militarytimes.com/story/military/2016/04/13/russian-su-24-attack-aircraft-us-navy-destroyer-donald-cook-baltic-sea/82979184/

Spoiler:

In one of the most aggressive actions in recent memory, Russian warplanes conducted “simulated attacks” on the a U.S. Navy vessel in the Baltic Sea on Tuesday, repeatedly flying within 30 feet of the ship, according to a defense official.

Sailors aboard the destroyer Donald Cook said the aircraft flew low enough to create wake in the sea waters surrounding the ship, and the ship’s commanding officer said the incident was “unsafe and unprofessional,” the defense official said.

“This was more aggressive than anything we’ve seen in some time,” according to the defense official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because U.S. officials have not officially disclosed the incidents.

Sailors aboard the ship described the Sukhoi Russian Su-24 as “wings clean,” meaning there were no visible bombs or armaments on the aircraft, the defense official said.

The nature of the overflight as a “simulated attack” may violate a 1973 treaty between the U.S. and Russia that specifically prohibits this type of maneuver, the defense official said.


NAVY TIMES
War of words erupts after DDG's encounter with Russians

The maneuver was one of several aggressive moves by Russian aircraft on Monday and Tuesday.

Shortly after leaving the Polish port of Gdynia, near Gdansk, on Monday, the Donald Cook at was sea in international waters conducting flight operations with a Polish helicopter, part of routine joint training exercises with the NATO ally.

During those flight operations, a Russian Sukhoi Su-24 combat aircraft appeared and conducted about 20 overflights, coming within 1,000 yards of the ship at an altitude of about 100 feet, the defense official said. In response, the commander of the Donald Cook suspended flight operations.

Pestering the yanks never gets boring chto byet i zhet vraga stalnaya nasha vyuga...
I should probably stop replaying that song now...


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/13 22:36:50


Post by: BaronIveagh




Not the first time the Cook's been harassed in open water near Russia.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Iron_Captain wrote:

I should probably stop replaying that song now...


Like the Kurds, I have turned the power of Stalin against Russians! See how their minds cannot handle it! Bwa ha ha ha ha!


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/14 00:23:47


Post by: Freakazoitt




Can you read? It says "DNR rebels"
Rebels claims that a captured was saboteur and had no documents confirming his involvement in the UN. But I am still against such actions. As well as mortar and sniper fire from the Ukrainian army targeting UN inspectors (you probably read only the news from Kiev and did not hear about such)



Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/14 00:36:42


Post by: oldravenman3025


 Easy E wrote:
Is this a good place to post about the SU-24 fly-by of the US Destroyer Donald Cook?

http://www.militarytimes.com/story/military/2016/04/13/russian-su-24-attack-aircraft-us-navy-destroyer-donald-cook-baltic-sea/82979184/


In one of the most aggressive actions in recent memory, Russian warplanes conducted “simulated attacks” on the a U.S. Navy vessel in the Baltic Sea on Tuesday, repeatedly flying within 30 feet of the ship, according to a defense official.

Sailors aboard the destroyer Donald Cook said the aircraft flew low enough to create wake in the sea waters surrounding the ship, and the ship’s commanding officer said the incident was “unsafe and unprofessional,” the defense official said.

“This was more aggressive than anything we’ve seen in some time,” according to the defense official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because U.S. officials have not officially disclosed the incidents.

Sailors aboard the ship described the Sukhoi Russian Su-24 as “wings clean,” meaning there were no visible bombs or armaments on the aircraft, the defense official said.

The nature of the overflight as a “simulated attack” may violate a 1973 treaty between the U.S. and Russia that specifically prohibits this type of maneuver, the defense official said.


NAVY TIMES
War of words erupts after DDG's encounter with Russians

The maneuver was one of several aggressive moves by Russian aircraft on Monday and Tuesday.

Shortly after leaving the Polish port of Gdynia, near Gdansk, on Monday, the Donald Cook at was sea in international waters conducting flight operations with a Polish helicopter, part of routine joint training exercises with the NATO ally.

During those flight operations, a Russian Sukhoi Su-24 combat aircraft appeared and conducted about 20 overflights, coming within 1,000 yards of the ship at an altitude of about 100 feet, the defense official said. In response, the commander of the Donald Cook suspended flight operations.




Good thing that Fencer was not carrying a strike package while it's crew was dicking around. They might have ended up taking a Standard up the tailpipe if they had been, and the skipper perceived a combat threat to the vessel.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/15 07:50:12


Post by: Wyrmalla


Seeing as we don't have a Russia thread (rather just Russia invading other countries threads...), a bit about the reorganization of the National Guard.

A draft presidential decree detailing the main tasks and functions of the recently established National Guard agency allows it to take part in international operations including peacekeeping missions.


The possible use of National Guard troops in operations in other countries radically distinguishes it from Interior Ministry troops that serve as the basis for the new force. Current Russian laws don’t permit sending Interior Ministry forces on foreign missions.

The document, published on the federal website on Tuesday, gives the new force the official name of Rosgvardia (short for “Russian Guards”), in addition to the National Guard name used by Vladimir Putin when he announced its creation earlier this month.
It also officially establishes the previously announced scheme under which Rosgvardia is commanded directly by the president of the Russian Federation. According to the draft decree the new force will soon receive its own emblem and flag.

https://www.rt.com/politics/339290-russian-national-guard-to-get/


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/15 09:13:04


Post by: Freakazoitt


Why Putin not named them "space guards". AK can shoot in space.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/15 12:38:50


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Freakazoitt wrote:
Why Putin not named them "space guards". AK can shoot in space.

He already has space forces: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Space_Forces
Space forces! They sound much more awesome than they are.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/15 18:05:52


Post by: Yaraton


Oh how cute the Western propaganda "forgot" to mention one interesting detail...

The representative of the UN Mission Yuri Suprun, who is currently being kept by militants in Donetsk region, is a former employee of the Security Service of Ukraine (SBU).

«He (Suprun – ed.) is not an employee of the SBU, although he indeed used to work for this service. Now, he is a representative of the UN Mission, and his detention by militants is a shameful manifestation of violation of international agreements, since this person, as the UN member, was granted with immunity” said Tkachuk.

According to him, Suprun was on official mission in the [...] territory and had all the necessary documents confirming his status.

As previously reported, United Nations calls for immediate release of UN staff member who is currently been held captive in [...] Donetsk.


http://ukraineunderattack.org/en/63234-un-staff-member-currently-kept-by-militants-used-to-work-for-sbu.html

SBU is ukranian former KGB under the CIA supervision and the patron of Right Sector and the rest of the ukranian neo-Nazis. He is lucky he hasn't be hang right on the spot.


Russian Ministry of Internal Affairs (now Police) Troops, who would become the bases of the new military force have already been named "Rosgard" (from Russian Guard) officially so they wouldn't be associated with the American or what even much worse ukranian neo-Nazi "National Guard". Ministry of Internal Affairs Troops has been in charge of internal security since Russian Empire and later USSR: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_Troops_of_Russia I know we don't have delinquent degenerates here, on Dakka, so please pass this information to your friends somewhere else so they wouldn't be crapping bricks in their Russophobic fit.




Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/15 18:11:17


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


That is rather shady...


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/15 18:14:33


Post by: Wyrmalla


Forgot to mention or that Western news has moved on and couldn't give a toss? If its directed at posters here for not mentioning it, then well, how many of us actually care to delve into local news that much? I just post crap from military news forums which catch my eye (thus all the tanks...).

I mean if you really want to get into current events, and running on the tiring "all Ukrainians are Nazis" spiel, here, have a picture from Azov's latest social media campaign:





Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/15 19:03:41


Post by: konst80hummel


They are recruiting children now?


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/15 19:24:02


Post by: Iron_Captain


konst80hummel wrote:
They are recruiting children now?

Yup. Altough not for active service or frontline combat of course. It is more like a military-style summer camp to prepare them for future service, similar to what the Cossacks do with their kids.
It also serves to indoctrinate the kids with their ideology, so it is pretty much an Ukrainian Hitler Jugend.


Edit:
I found a short english article on the camp. From the pictures, it actually looks a lot more tame than the Crimean camp I went to. They don't even wear military uniforms.
http://ukrainiancrusade.blogspot.nl/2015/08/childrens-camp-azovian-we-care-about.html


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/15 20:45:44


Post by: BaronIveagh


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36053524

"I was misinformed by my aides".

I didn't mean to spew propaganda that even in Russia was easily disproven.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/15 22:14:04


Post by: Yaraton


konst80hummel wrote:
They are recruiting children now?


Well, they don't get born being Nazis, but they sure grow up fast to become ones, especially under new neo-Nazi regime in Kiev. Those five billion dollars US has spent (only officially) haven't been for nothing.



Neo-Nazis March in Lvov “In Honor” of Ukrainian Waffen SS Division

http://www.independent.mk/articles/4404/Neo-Nazis+March+in+Lvov+In+Honor+of+Ukrainian+Waffen+SS+Division

Oh, Independent is slightly "mistaken" about "SS members were labeled war criminals". The Western Allies, didn't include the members of the SS-Volunteer Divisions from "ukraine" and the Baltic states into that category but rather into "freedom fighters" and allowed them to immigrate to USA, Canada, South America and Australia to escape the prosecution and to have a valuable military-trained manpower in the starting of the Cold War.




Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/15 23:46:16


Post by: Ustrello


Well to be honest they decided to choose hitler over the man and country (stalin russia) who left them to die (via not evacuating western ukraine and kiev) and starved them to death (holodomor). Then again why would you trust a man who literally destroyed and edited out Trotsky. Who in my opinion was the true hero of the russian revolution (probably more than lenin). My guess is depending on when you were born (assuming you lived in russia) you dont even know who Trotsky is.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/16 00:26:03


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Yaraton wrote:

Oh, Independent is slightly "mistaken" about "SS members were labeled war criminals". The Western Allies, didn't include the members of the SS-Volunteer Divisions from "ukraine" and the Baltic states into that category


Or most other places for that matter, since the vast majority of the 'Volunteers' were actually conscripted. Interestingly, many of those same Baltic SS also served as the guards for the Nuremberg Tribunal. Something tells me they were not what one might call 'believers' in Nazism.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/16 01:51:35


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Ustrello wrote:
Well to be honest they decided to choose hitler over the man and country (stalin russia) who left them to die (via not evacuating western ukraine and kiev) and starved them to death (holodomor). Then again why would you trust a man who literally destroyed and edited out Trotsky. Who in my opinion was the true hero of the russian revolution (probably more than lenin). My guess is depending on when you were born (assuming you lived in russia) you dont even know who Trotsky is.

Uhmm, holodomor was in Eastern Ukraine and Western Russia, not in Eastern Poland (which is the area that now is Western Ukraine). And Stalin left them to die because he didn't evacuate everyone? That is the most ridiculous argument I have ever heard. How could they have evacuated anyone? And why would they? It is not normal practice to evacuate populations if the enemy advances. In fact, that would probably have been more harmful to the people than Nazi occupation. And last but not least, the Western Ukrainians didn't want to be evacuated even if it had been possible. They were doing just fine helping their Nazi friends with exterminating the Jews and Poles. Do you know how Lwow became a Ukrainian city? It wasn't very pretty. http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/03/10/lviv-ukraines-monument-to-ethnic-cleansing/
The Western Ukrainians sided with Hitler because they thought Hitler offered them a chance to have an independent Ukrainian state without the much hated Poles and Jews, who had ruled over the Ukrainians for centuries. The Soviets and Russians really had little to do with it, they had just moved into the area for the first time in 1939, after it had been part of Poland and the Austrian Empire for centuries.

Also, everyone knows who Trotsky is. He is like really famous. He might have been erased from photographs, but he played too big a role to be erased from people's memories.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/16 01:54:41


Post by: Ustrello


 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Ustrello wrote:
Well to be honest they decided to choose hitler over the man and country (stalin russia) who left them to die (via not evacuating western ukraine and kiev) and starved them to death (holodomor). Then again why would you trust a man who literally destroyed and edited out Trotsky. Who in my opinion was the true hero of the russian revolution (probably more than lenin). My guess is depending on when you were born (assuming you lived in russia) you dont even know who Trotsky is.

Uhmm, holodomor was in Eastern Ukraine and Western Russia, not in Eastern Poland (which is the area that now is Western Ukraine). And Stalin left them to die because he didn't evacuate everyone? That is the most ridiculous argument I have ever heard. How could they have evacuated anyone? And why would they? It is not normal practice to evacuate populations if the enemy advances. In fact, that would probably have been more harmful to the people than Nazi occupation. And last but not least, the Western Ukrainians didn't want to be evacuated even if it had been possible. They were doing just fine helping their Nazi friends with exterminating the Jews and Poles. Do you know how Lwow became a Ukrainian city? It wasn't very pretty. http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/03/10/lviv-ukraines-monument-to-ethnic-cleansing/
The Western Ukrainians sided with Hitler because they thought Hitler offered them a chance to have an independent Ukrainian state without the much hated Poles and Jews, who had ruled over the Ukrainians for centuries. The Soviets and Russians really had little to do with it, they had just moved into the area for the first time in 1939, after it had been part of Poland and the Austrian Empire for centuries.

Also, everyone knows who Trotsky is. He is like really famous. He might have been erased from photographs, but he played too big a role to be erased from people's memories.


Really? Because that is kinda why most of the baltics and ukraine hate the russians because of how often the russians left them to die. As for trotsky you probably have had the blessing of a non soviet education or are a lair because stalin erased Trotsky from the soviet narrative.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/16 02:04:52


Post by: Shadow Captain Edithae


 Ustrello wrote:
Really? Because that is kinda why most of the baltics and ukraine hate the russians because of how often the russians left them to die. As for trotsky you probably have had the blessing of a non soviet education or are a lair because stalin erased Trotsky from the soviet narrative.


Dude, you need to stop living in the past. The Soviet Union was dissolved nearly three decades ago.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/16 02:11:52


Post by: Ustrello


 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
 Ustrello wrote:
Really? Because that is kinda why most of the baltics and ukraine hate the russians because of how often the russians left them to die. As for trotsky you probably have had the blessing of a non soviet education or are a lair because stalin erased Trotsky from the soviet narrative.


Dude, you need to stop living in the past. The Soviet Union was dissolved nearly three decades ago.


And the third reich has been dead for 70 but it still has repercussions to this day and is often evoked by the russians as "they deserve it because they are nazis".


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/16 03:20:56


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Ustrello wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Ustrello wrote:
Well to be honest they decided to choose hitler over the man and country (stalin russia) who left them to die (via not evacuating western ukraine and kiev) and starved them to death (holodomor). Then again why would you trust a man who literally destroyed and edited out Trotsky. Who in my opinion was the true hero of the russian revolution (probably more than lenin). My guess is depending on when you were born (assuming you lived in russia) you dont even know who Trotsky is.

Uhmm, holodomor was in Eastern Ukraine and Western Russia, not in Eastern Poland (which is the area that now is Western Ukraine). And Stalin left them to die because he didn't evacuate everyone? That is the most ridiculous argument I have ever heard. How could they have evacuated anyone? And why would they? It is not normal practice to evacuate populations if the enemy advances. In fact, that would probably have been more harmful to the people than Nazi occupation. And last but not least, the Western Ukrainians didn't want to be evacuated even if it had been possible. They were doing just fine helping their Nazi friends with exterminating the Jews and Poles. Do you know how Lwow became a Ukrainian city? It wasn't very pretty. http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/03/10/lviv-ukraines-monument-to-ethnic-cleansing/
The Western Ukrainians sided with Hitler because they thought Hitler offered them a chance to have an independent Ukrainian state without the much hated Poles and Jews, who had ruled over the Ukrainians for centuries. The Soviets and Russians really had little to do with it, they had just moved into the area for the first time in 1939, after it had been part of Poland and the Austrian Empire for centuries.

Also, everyone knows who Trotsky is. He is like really famous. He might have been erased from photographs, but he played too big a role to be erased from people's memories.


Really? Because that is kinda why most of the baltics and ukraine hate the russians because of how often the russians left them to die. As for trotsky you probably have had the blessing of a non soviet education or are a lair because stalin erased Trotsky from the soviet narrative.

That is complete and utter nonsense. The reason many Balts and (Western) Ukrainians dislike Russians is because of Soviet opression, and Russians were the most common and dominant ethnic group of the Soviet Union (for Balts the situation is actually more complex) They don't hate Russians because the Russians did not evacuate them during WW2 or something, that is one of the most silly things I have ever heard. And if you believe that, would you please explain how it is that the Balts and (Western) Ukrainians hate the Russians, and not the Belarusians or Russians who also weren't evacuated?

And on Trotsky, even if he wasn't in the official Soviet school books, people learn stuff outside of school as well, you know?

 Ustrello wrote:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
 Ustrello wrote:
Really? Because that is kinda why most of the baltics and ukraine hate the russians because of how often the russians left them to die. As for trotsky you probably have had the blessing of a non soviet education or are a lair because stalin erased Trotsky from the soviet narrative.


Dude, you need to stop living in the past. The Soviet Union was dissolved nearly three decades ago.


And the third reich has been dead for 70 but it still has repercussions to this day and is often evoked by the russians as "they deserve it because they are nazis".

So? They are nazis in the present. If they had only been nazis 70 years ago like with the Germans, there would not be a problem. Those western Ukrainian groups are still nazis today, and that is the problem.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/16 03:37:31


Post by: Ustrello


 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Ustrello wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Ustrello wrote:
Well to be honest they decided to choose hitler over the man and country (stalin russia) who left them to die (via not evacuating western ukraine and kiev) and starved them to death (holodomor). Then again why would you trust a man who literally destroyed and edited out Trotsky. Who in my opinion was the true hero of the russian revolution (probably more than lenin). My guess is depending on when you were born (assuming you lived in russia) you dont even know who Trotsky is.

Uhmm, holodomor was in Eastern Ukraine and Western Russia, not in Eastern Poland (which is the area that now is Western Ukraine). And Stalin left them to die because he didn't evacuate everyone? That is the most ridiculous argument I have ever heard. How could they have evacuated anyone? And why would they? It is not normal practice to evacuate populations if the enemy advances. In fact, that would probably have been more harmful to the people than Nazi occupation. And last but not least, the Western Ukrainians didn't want to be evacuated even if it had been possible. They were doing just fine helping their Nazi friends with exterminating the Jews and Poles. Do you know how Lwow became a Ukrainian city? It wasn't very pretty. http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/03/10/lviv-ukraines-monument-to-ethnic-cleansing/
The Western Ukrainians sided with Hitler because they thought Hitler offered them a chance to have an independent Ukrainian state without the much hated Poles and Jews, who had ruled over the Ukrainians for centuries. The Soviets and Russians really had little to do with it, they had just moved into the area for the first time in 1939, after it had been part of Poland and the Austrian Empire for centuries.

Also, everyone knows who Trotsky is. He is like really famous. He might have been erased from photographs, but he played too big a role to be erased from people's memories.


Really? Because that is kinda why most of the baltics and ukraine hate the russians because of how often the russians left them to die. As for trotsky you probably have had the blessing of a non soviet education or are a lair because stalin erased Trotsky from the soviet narrative.

That is complete and utter nonsense. The reason many Balts and (Western) Ukrainians dislike Russians is because of Soviet opression, and Russians were the most common and dominant ethnic group of the Soviet Union (for Balts the situation is actually more complex) They don't hate Russians because the Russians did not evacuate them during WW2 or something, that is one of the most silly things I have ever heard. And if you believe that, would you please explain how it is that the Balts and (Western) Ukrainians hate the Russians, and not the Belarusians or Russians who also weren't evacuated?

And on Trotsky, even if he wasn't in the official Soviet school books, people learn stuff outside of school as well, you know?

 Ustrello wrote:
 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
 Ustrello wrote:
Really? Because that is kinda why most of the baltics and ukraine hate the russians because of how often the russians left them to die. As for trotsky you probably have had the blessing of a non soviet education or are a lair because stalin erased Trotsky from the soviet narrative.


Dude, you need to stop living in the past. The Soviet Union was dissolved nearly three decades ago.


And the third reich has been dead for 70 but it still has repercussions to this day and is often evoked by the russians as "they deserve it because they are nazis".

So? They are nazis in the present. If they had only been nazis 70 years ago like with the Germans, there would not be a problem. Those western Ukrainian groups are still nazis today, and that is the problem.


I never said it was the only reason just a very very very long list why they hate the russians. As to your question about the russians that died because they weren't evacuated, they probably were angry but they are from russia (belarus doesn't care probably because they are under a dictatorship and you know how that can effect dissent and anger) so it was diffused or they were sent to a gulag when they voiced their anger.

As for trotsky I have talked to russians even 10 years ago that had no idea who he was and that was more than a decade after the fall of the soviet union.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/16 04:49:17


Post by: Yaraton


The Baltic nations hate Russians because "they left them to die"?



Also that "GULAG" idiotism again?

We should probably need a separate thread about Russian history so you would stop posting your very questionable statements and learned a thing or two.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/16 04:58:45


Post by: LordofHats


To be fair, pretty much everyone lets the Baltic nations die, which is why the Baltic is such a messed up place these days Tends to happen when you're entire region is proverbially caught in a massive game of international tug of war. (and the war part is literal)

Also, it's is official. Gulag denial can now join the ranks of holocaust denial in sad ridiculous things that exist in the world.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/16 05:34:36


Post by: Freakazoitt


Gulag? Okay, Trotsky knew what is GULAG. He wanted not only to turn the whole country into a GULAG, and turn the whole world into a GULAG.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/16 11:23:43


Post by: A Town Called Malus


 Ustrello wrote:


Really? Because that is kinda why most of the baltics and ukraine hate the russians because of how often the russians left them to die. As for trotsky you probably have had the blessing of a non soviet education or are a lair because stalin erased Trotsky from the soviet narrative.


Stalin may have removed him but I'm pretty sure he would have been put back in under Kruschev's de-Stalinisation.

I mean we here in the West still knew about him and still had the original photographs so I'm sure some people in the Soviet Union could re-insert him after Stalin died.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/16 15:07:41


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Yaraton wrote:

We should probably need a separate thread about Russian history so you would stop posting your very questionable statements and learned a thing or two.


well... the creation of satellite buffer states between Russia and it's long time adversaries Germany and Poland could be viewed in that light. Casualty rates as a percentage of the population also would seem to reflect this (Russia is down around 4th or 5th for WW2's Eastern Front at 12%). The Russian Ministry of Defense estimates for WW2 that were released in 1993 suggest that half of WW2s Soviet military casualties came from places like Latvia, the Ukraine, etc. This is contested in other sources, as the truth is no one is entirely sure how many people died on the Russian front, it's all best guess estimates.

Though personally, I think they just hate Russia for having conquered them, Stalin, a variety of forcible relocations, extreme poverty, etc.. There's a fairly direct correlation between how unpopular Russia is in a given former soviet republic and the remaining percentage of the non-Russian ethnic population of it. Since the Russians, to make up numbers, brought in loyal Russians to replace those dead and disloyal slavic/baltic/turkic/etc dogs.

I love talking history. Scroll back to Iron_Captain's lively discussion of said with myself some pages back.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/16 16:06:08


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Yaraton wrote:

We should probably need a separate thread about Russian history so you would stop posting your very questionable statements and learned a thing or two.

I totally support this. Most Western people are so ignorant about Eastern European and Russian history it is shameful. Altough it should probably be solved through better, more broad history education in Western countries rather than a thread on Dakka


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/16 16:09:32


Post by: Freakazoitt


Yep, let's just forget about Ukraine


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/16 16:10:56


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Ustrello wrote:

I never said it was the only reason just a very very very long list why they hate the russians. As to your question about the russians that died because they weren't evacuated, they probably were angry but they are from russia (belarus doesn't care probably because they are under a dictatorship and you know how that can effect dissent and anger) so it was diffused or they were sent to a gulag when they voiced their anger.

So why were the Russians and Belarusians sent to gulags but Balts and Ukrainians weren't?
IIRC, there were plenty of Balts and Ukrainians in the camps. Certainly they could have fitted in a few more?

 Freakazoitt wrote:
Yep, let's just forget about Ukraine

It is not like there is any new developments there...


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/16 17:21:40


Post by: Yaraton


Yep, "ukrain" keeps ignoring Minsk Protocols and now occupies the neutral-designated territories with it's troops and heavy armour. It shells daily surrounding areas, which are mostly civilian infrastructure there anyways. People die or get injured in the DNR/LNR daily from the Nazi bombardments. OSCE doesn't see any of that and doesn't do anything about it. "No new developments" indeed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 LordofHats wrote:

Also, it's is official. Gulag denial can now join the ranks of holocaust denial in sad ridiculous things that exist in the world.


The term “GULAG” is an acronym for the Soviet bureaucratic institution, Glavnoe Upravlenie ispravitel’no-trudovykh LAGerei (Main Administration of Corrective Labor Camps), that operated the Soviet system of forced labor camps in the Stalin era.


You can't be freaking sent to "G.U.Lag" and die there, get it already.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/16 17:48:22


Post by: LordofHats


I love talking history. Scroll back to Iron_Captain's lively discussion of said with myself some pages back.


Why doesn't the board just have a general History thread? We have one for the mess that is politics in like, 4 different parts of the world at this point. My knowledge of Russian history is pretty much limitedsome class on 20th century Russia, some documentary I saw on the Romanov dynasty, and stuff I learned when studying the Byzantine/Ottoman Empires XD

Altough it should probably be solved through better, more broad history education in Western countries rather than a thread on Dakka


It's funny because there's a professor at my college, who I think is still there, who every year wants to teach something on Russia. In the four years I was there he only got to teach one class on 20th Century Russia (that realistically delved back into the 19th for context). Meanwhile there's a class on the American Civil War every other semester (I hate the American Civil War so much at this point), 2-3 classes on American history general, one on some Western European state most years, and if we're lucky the most bad ass professor who ever lived gets to teach something on the Middle East. To quote;

"I proposed a class on the Seljuk's last year but everyone thought I was talking about my Game of Thrones fan fiction."

Pretty much the only class my school regularly teaches on history outside the US is the World History general education course, which speaks about everything so briefly an eight year old could bull gak their way through.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/16 18:35:54


Post by: Vaktathi


 Yaraton wrote:
Yep, "ukrain" keeps ignoring Minsk Protocols and now occupies the neutral-designated territories with it's troops and heavy armour. It shells daily surrounding areas, which are mostly civilian infrastructure there anyways. People die or get injured in the DNR/LNR daily from the Nazi bombardments. OSCE doesn't see any of that and doesn't do anything about it. "No new developments" indeed.
And the DNR/LNR guys haven't been doing the exact same thing right back the whole time? Lets not pretend like all the evil is on one side here, it's not, and neither side has full control over the actions of the forces present, corruption is rampant on both sides, and revenge is a motive on both sides. Acting like the Ukrainians are the singular monsters here is absurd, ceasefire violations and indiscriminate use of weapons that injure and kill civilians is a problem with the DNR/LNR groups too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 LordofHats wrote:

Also, it's is official. Gulag denial can now join the ranks of holocaust denial in sad ridiculous things that exist in the world.


The term “GULAG” is an acronym for the Soviet bureaucratic institution, Glavnoe Upravlenie ispravitel’no-trudovykh LAGerei (Main Administration of Corrective Labor Camps), that operated the Soviet system of forced labor camps in the Stalin era.


You can't be freaking sent to "G.U.Lag" and die there, get it already.
In conversational English, which is what this board is using, Gulag is understood as word unto itself, stop trying to be pedantic about this just for its own sake. It's far from the only term to evolve in that manner.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/16 18:55:56


Post by: Iron_Captain


 LordofHats wrote:

Altough it should probably be solved through better, more broad history education in Western countries rather than a thread on Dakka


It's funny because there's a professor at my college, who I think is still there, who every year wants to teach something on Russia. In the four years I was there he only got to teach one class on 20th Century Russia (that realistically delved back into the 19th for context). Meanwhile there's a class on the American Civil War every other semester (I hate the American Civil War so much at this point), 2-3 classes on American history general, one on some Western European state most years, and if we're lucky the most bad ass professor who ever lived gets to teach something on the Middle East. To quote;

"I proposed a class on the Seljuk's last year but everyone thought I was talking about my Game of Thrones fan fiction."

Pretty much the only class my school regularly teaches on history outside the US is the World History general education course, which speaks about everything so briefly an eight year old could bull gak their way through.

That is pretty much exactly how history education in the Netherlands is too (but with Dutch and Western European history rather than American ofc). Russia is actually quite lucky because it usually gets some kind of attention because of the Cold War (usually just a short paragraph on the Russian Revolution, Stalin and communism.) The rest of Eastern Europe doesn't get any attention at all, much less the rest of the world. In Russia, history courses generally at least also pay a lot of attention to (Western) European history next to Russian history, altough coverage of China, Middle East or rest of the world is also minimal. With history being so important to understanding the world, it is a damn shame when most of the people in developed countries know so much more more about the House of Stark than about the House of Seljuk
Especially for politicians additional history lessons should be mandatory.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/16 19:03:53


Post by: Ahtman


 LordofHats wrote:
It's funny because there's a professor at my college, who I think is still there, who every year wants to teach something on Russia. In the four years I was there he only got to teach one class on 20th Century Russia (that realistically delved back into the 19th for context). Meanwhile there's a class on the American Civil War every other semester (I hate the American Civil War so much at this point), 2-3 classes on American history general, one on some Western European state most years, and if we're lucky the most bad ass professor who ever lived gets to teach something on the Middle East. To quote;


I had a history Professor that wanted to do 19th Century Germany and WWI but the only classes he could really get interest in were WWII related. Of course after students pnly showed interest in WWII classes they then complained that he must loved Nazis since he taught so much WWII. Of course the Venn diagram of students complaining to the students struggling due to the difficult nature of the course (well it wasn't really hard but you had to actually, you know, think) had a fairly sizable overlap.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/16 19:41:10


Post by: Jihadin


 Ahtman wrote:
 LordofHats wrote:
It's funny because there's a professor at my college, who I think is still there, who every year wants to teach something on Russia. In the four years I was there he only got to teach one class on 20th Century Russia (that realistically delved back into the 19th for context). Meanwhile there's a class on the American Civil War every other semester (I hate the American Civil War so much at this point), 2-3 classes on American history general, one on some Western European state most years, and if we're lucky the most bad ass professor who ever lived gets to teach something on the Middle East. To quote;


I had a history Professor that wanted to do 19th Century Germany and WWI but the only classes he could really get interest in were WWII related. Of course after students pnly showed interest in WWII classes they then complained that he must loved Nazis since he taught so much WWII. Of course the Venn diagram of students complaining to the students struggling due to the difficult nature of the course (well it wasn't really hard but you had to actually, you know, think) had a fairly sizable overlap.


Don't get us started on this current group of....students. I had one claim I am a Nazi lover because of my theme SS Waffen Tau..


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/16 19:46:51


Post by: LordofHats


Yeah. pretty much unless you go to a major school like Columbia or Georgetown (which have huge history departments) you're gonna have really limited non-US history courses in my experience (in the US that is).

 Jihadin wrote:
Don't get us started on this current group of....students. I had one claim I am a Nazi lover because of my theme SS Waffen Tau..


That's actually a really fitting theme for the Tau XD I know the stereotype is that they're Space Commies, but you know Space Nazi's is a pretty good fit given the Tau's seeming love of eugenics and desire for "living space"


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/16 19:51:01


Post by: Jihadin


and a range of other life forms fighting for them.....like the real Waffen SS...
I even broke them down to....Waffen Units lol
Of course...
Wittman unit of four Hammerheads


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/16 23:15:12


Post by: Relapse


 LordofHats wrote:
I love talking history. Scroll back to Iron_Captain's lively discussion of said with myself some pages back.


Why doesn't the board just have a general History thread? We have one for the mess that is politics in like, 4 different parts of the world at this point. My knowledge of Russian history is pretty much limitedsome class on 20th century Russia, some documentary I saw on the Romanov dynasty, and stuff I learned when studying the Byzantine/Ottoman Empires XD

Altough it should probably be solved through better, more broad history education in Western countries rather than a thread on Dakka


It's funny because there's a professor at my college, who I think is still there, who every year wants to teach something on Russia. In the four years I was there he only got to teach one class on 20th Century Russia (that realistically delved back into the 19th for context). Meanwhile there's a class on the American Civil War every other semester (I hate the American Civil War so much at this point), 2-3 classes on American history general, one on some Western European state most years, and if we're lucky the most bad ass professor who ever lived gets to teach something on the Middle East. To quote;

"I proposed a class on the Seljuk's last year but everyone thought I was talking about my Game of Thrones fan fiction."

Pretty much the only class my school regularly teaches on history outside the US is the World History general education course, which speaks about everything so briefly an eight year old could bull gak their way through.


I was talking to some people at work and mentioned someone looked like pictures of Henry the 8th. I was asked who that was.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/17 00:24:02


Post by: BaronIveagh


Relapse wrote:

I was talking to some people at work and mentioned someone looked like pictures of Henry the 8th. I was asked who that was.


There was one at my work who didn't know who Moe Howard was.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/17 01:02:45


Post by: Yaraton


 Vaktathi wrote:
And the DNR/LNR guys haven't been doing the exact same thing right back the whole time? Lets not pretend like all the evil is on one side here, it's not, and neither side has full control over the actions of the forces present, corruption is rampant on both sides, and revenge is a motive on both sides. Acting like the Ukrainians are the singular monsters here is absurd, ceasefire violations and indiscriminate use of weapons that injure and kill civilians is a problem with the DNR/LNR groups too.


There is huge difference though: armed forces of DNR/LNR consist primary of the local population and when they retaliate they don't do it by firing on the Kiev-occupied civilian objects like houses, hospitals, schools, shops etc. deliberately. Unlike the Kiev Junta forces who terrorize daily the population of separatists regions because it's their main goal. Even right now, the rebel forces only return fire when it becomes dangerous not to answer in kind in order to hold their own positions from being obliterated. The Russian information sites very often quote the local separatists military men saying that sometimes they are more afraid of their own chain of the command who would have no problem arresting and sending in the military prisons those who hadn't had enough of a reason to fire back when they are fired upon by the Kiev Nazi forces. The Nazi force have no such problems, they fire all they could when they are drunk and they are drunk all the time. Their own ukranian media calls the zombie-look alike "ukranian patriots" Avatars because they are blue from drinking so much vodka.




In conversational English, which is what this board is using, Gulag is understood as word unto itself, stop trying to be pedantic about this just for its own sake. It's far from the only term to evolve in that manner.


That "conversational English" term came from the Cold War propaganda, trying to set up a Russophobic stereotype with a Russian-sounding but easy to pronounce and remember word that in reality has nothing to do what it stands for. This needs to be changed and giving enough of effort it will be changed.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/17 01:49:01


Post by: Jihadin


Anything about military history the current generation of recruits.....not fimiliar with.....one did not know who John Wayne was


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/17 02:02:03


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Yaraton wrote:

There is huge difference though: armed forces of DNR/LNR consist primary of the local population and when they retaliate they don't do it by firing on the Kiev-occupied civilian objects like houses, hospitals, schools, shops etc. deliberately.


Please explain Sloviansk then? or the bus attack? The Luhansk Library torture dungeon? Kramatorsk where Catholics were attacked while attending mass?

It's funny, for being anti-Nazi, last April 20th they were broadcasting some fairly hard core anti-Jewish material on the captured TV tower near Sloviansk.

Face it, DNT has just as many dangerous fruit loops as the Azov Battalion. The only good thing about Azov is they wear how crazy they are on their sleeve.



Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/17 02:02:11


Post by: Co'tor Shas


Just change every instance of the word "gulag" was actually "Main Administration of Corrective Labor Camps and Labor Settlements". Would that suit you?


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/17 02:03:45


Post by: BaronIveagh


 Jihadin wrote:
Anything about military history the current generation of recruits.....not fimiliar with.....one did not know who John Wayne was



You know, I've always suspected that the US military forgets every war but the last one. That rather confirms it. Hell, the littoral combat ships use a design that went out of vogue in 1905 because it has a tendency to sink. "But it's SOOO RADAR STEALTHY!'

That last guy, make him watch Sands of Iwo Jima. or The Longest Day.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/17 02:05:44


Post by: Vaktathi


 Yaraton wrote:


There is huge difference though: armed forces of DNR/LNR consist primary of the local population
Minus the Russians, Chechens, Serbs, etc that have been seen fighting amongst their ranks in far higher proportion (by several orders of magnitude) to foreign fighters in Ukrainian forces, to say nothing of the great amount of evidence pointing to Russian involvement on at least *some* level. Very large numbers of foreign fighters are involved, including many of the ostensible leaders. Igor Strelkov sure as hell didn't come from the local population.

The "self defense forces" in Crimea turned out to not be local either

and when they retaliate they don't do it by firing on the Kiev-occupied civilian objects like houses, hospitals, schools, shops etc. deliberately.
That's a rather hard claim to back up from either side definitively, but both sides are freely firing area weapons into populated centers without regard for what's there, and there's zero evidence that it's simply retaliatory attacks from the DNR/LNR.

Now, this isn't to say that the Ukrainians are perfect or blameless, they're not, they absolutely have done some bad things and used area weapons indiscriminately, and have massive problems with corruption and control of their forces, but if they're worse than the DNR/LNR, it's only because they've got more ammunition and the DNR/LNR guys might have to ration it more.

Neither side is particularly stellar in this conflict.


Unlike the Kiev Junta forces who terrorize daily the population of separatists regions because it's their main goal. Even right now, the rebel forces only return fire when it becomes dangerous not to answer in kind in order to hold their own positions from being obliterated.
And your evidence of this is...what?

The Russian information sites very often quote the local separatists military men saying that sometimes they are more afraid of their own chain of the command who would have no problem arresting and sending in the military prisons those who hadn't had enough of a reason to fire back when they are fired upon by the Kiev Nazi forces. The Nazi force have no such problems, they fire all they could when they are drunk and they are drunk all the time. Their own ukranian media calls the zombie-look alike "ukranian patriots" Avatars because they are blue from drinking so much vodka.
And again...that's a lot of propaganda, one-sided accusations, and buzzwords you're spouting, but nothing substantive.

As for the video, we have zero context for anything therein (is this recent? old? are they near the DNR/LNR or is this after exercises elsewhere? Are they regulars? Nationalist volunteers?, etc), and from an obviously stilted source called "TV Patriot" with Russian flags stamped on everything, with a video titled "Армия Украины позорится на весь мир, алкаши и наркоманы, тупой и еще тупее тупого!"/"Army of Ukraine disgrace to the whole world, alcoholics and drug addicts, Dumb and Dumber stupid!".

You'll forgive me if the video fails to sustain any points. It's drunk dudes with Ukrainian flags on their shirts, how many videos can we find of drunk Russian soldiers doing similar stuff? Quite a lot.

If you have something other than propaganda to talk about, by all means, but if you're just going to link propaganda, this isn't going to get anyone anywhere. If you really want some good stuff on the conflict, check out Vice's Ukraine series, they do a rather good job of showing the uglies of both sides.




That "conversational English" term came from the Cold War propaganda, trying to set up a Russophobic stereotype with a Russian-sounding but easy to pronounce and remember word that in reality has nothing to do what it stands for. This needs to be changed and giving enough of effort it will be changed.
An internet message board about toy soldiers in a universe where the "good guys" are theocratic feudal fascists is the wrong place to try and fight that fight. Ultimately, when people use the term, everyone gets meaning, and it's used in common conversation. Trying to pick fights over the term's origin isn't going to accomplish anything.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/17 02:09:51


Post by: motyak


 Vaktathi wrote:
Trying to pick fights over the term's origin isn't going to accomplish anything.


Indeed. We're leaving the argument of saying "gulag is the wrong word because it's an acronym" to the side, it's off topic. Thanks guys.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/18 09:06:43


Post by: Da Boss


Sorry, this is a little old and might have been posted here already, but its' a pretty interesting article about the paid bloggers and social media posters disseminating propaganda about Ukraine.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/02/putin-kremlin-inside-russian-troll-house

Would love to know if any other states (I mean, obviously North Korea) are doing this.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/18 10:13:34


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


Your own link, from the Western capitalist pigdog media, had this on the trolling habits of some other nations.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/18 12:49:10


Post by: Co'tor Shas


I'm actually really surprised not to see the US on there. I wonder if that means we don't do it (possibly because we don't have to), or are just better at hiding it?


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/18 14:24:02


Post by: Rosebuddy


It hasn't been found out yet, isn't necessary due to the nature of corporate media or simply isn't mentioned there.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/18 14:33:09


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I'm actually really surprised not to see the US on there. I wonder if that means we don't do it (possibly because we don't have to), or are just better at hiding it?

Probably the last. The US has one of the best and most powerful secret services in the world. I highly doubt they would want to be falling behind on this.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/18 14:44:59


Post by: Co'tor Shas


Perhaps, but I think you overestimate the US government's intelligence when it comes to the internet .Or if they even care what other countries think of us.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/19 00:53:11


Post by: BaronIveagh


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36078581

Despite the fact that all involved are terrorists and not members of the armed forces in any way, shape or form, perhaps we'll swap ours for yours.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/19 01:25:38


Post by: Freakazoitt


Look at Savchenko. She became posessed with Chaos!


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/19 08:04:31


Post by: Wyrmalla


Stolen Dutch paintings recovered in Ukraine

Ukraine says it has recovered four paintings from a haul of 24 that was stolen from a gallery in the Netherlands more than a decade ago.

The haul of 16th and 17th century paintings was worth €50,000 (£40,000; $56,000) when stolen from the Westfries Museum in the city of Hoorn in 2005.

The four recovered works had been "in the possession of criminal groups", Ukraine's foreign minister said.

Reports say they were recovered from Ukrainian ultra-nationalists.

The museum said in December that two men, reportedly from a Ukrainian nationalist militia, had presented a picture of one of the paintings to the Dutch embassy in Kiev.



At the time, Dutch media reported that the men had said they had found the entire stolen collection and demanded millions of euros for the haul's return.

Ukrainian authorities gave no more details on how the four paintings were recovered.

Vasyl Grytsak, the head of Ukraine's state security service, said the first painting was recovered in early March, followed by a second in early April and two more on Thursday.

"A preliminary examination has determined they are authentic," Mr Grytsak told a press conference.

Ultra-nationalist Ukrainian militia groups are fighting a pro-Russian insurgency in parts of eastern Ukraine.

The conflict is estimated to have killed more than 9,200 people since April 2014.



Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/22 02:30:50


Post by: Yaraton


 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Just change every instance of the word "gulag" was actually "Main Administration of Corrective Labor Camps and Labor Settlements". Would that suit you?


The labour camps, which they were. Everything else is Russophobic propaganda garbage.

 Vaktathi wrote:
The "self defense forces" in Crimea turned out to not be local either

I have news for you, they "turned out to be local". If you have have a breakdown numbers I would love to see them. If not... That's just your personal opinion.

That's a rather hard claim to back up from either side definitively, but both sides are freely firing area weapons into populated centers without regard for what's there, and there's zero evidence that it's simply retaliatory attacks from the DNR/LNR.


Not really. The DNR/LNR websites post daily military briefings about the shelling, where, when and if someone died/got injured. Just because you haven't seen them, it doesn't mean they don't exist.

Now, this isn't to say that the Ukrainians are perfect or blameless, they're not, they absolutely have done some bad things and used area weapons indiscriminately, and have massive problems with corruption and control of their forces, but if they're worse than the DNR/LNR, it's only because they've got more ammunition and the DNR/LNR guys might have to ration it more.


How do you know the "DNR/LNR guys" are as worse as ukranian forces? Is it because you have a predetermined opinion about any people who would support Russia? I would really love to know how you set your criteria for who wrong and who is right in this conflict.

Neither side is particularly stellar in this conflict.


Agaian, just your personal opinion with no prove to support that claim.

And your evidence of this is...what?


"VSU* shelled almost 150 times the conflict zone in DNR during the day"
* an acronym for Ukrainian Forces

http://rusvesna.su/news/1461244821

And again...that's a lot of propaganda, one-sided accusations, and buzzwords you're spouting, but nothing substantive.


Great! Why don't you search the internet then and prove that I am wrong, and I am just gonna sit back and enjoy telling you that you post is nothing but "...a lot of propaganda, one-sided accusations, and buzzwords you're spouting, but nothing substantive"? Just to be fair. What I an afraid is that you don't play fair.

As for the video, we have zero context for anything therein (is this recent? old? are they near the DNR/LNR or is this after exercises elsewhere? Are they regulars? Nationalist volunteers?, etc), and from an obviously stilted source called "TV Patriot" with Russian flags stamped on everything, with a video titled "Армия Украины позорится на весь мир, алкаши и наркоманы, тупой и еще тупее тупого!"/"Army of Ukraine disgrace to the whole world, , Dumb and Dumber stupid!".


I believe it's from this year, one of the waives of the ukranian army recruits. I also believe they had 4 or 5 waves despite "winning" in the war. As for description, it's pretty accurate, they ukranian army depicted there is what they are - alcoholics and drug addicts who didn't have money to pay off the military recruitment center not to send them into the war.

You'll forgive me if the video fails to sustain any points. It's drunk dudes with Ukrainian flags on their shirts, how many videos can we find of drunk Russian soldiers doing similar stuff? Quite a lot.


Please do, preferably something resent from either Syria or the Northern Caucasus where the Russian army is involved.

If you have something other than propaganda to talk about, by all means, but if you're just going to link propaganda, this isn't going to get anyone anywhere.


If you just gonna tell me I post only "propaganda" without any support of that claim, I am gonna report you to the mods and put you on my ignore list.

If you really want some good stuff on the conflict, check out Vice's Ukraine series, they do a rather good job of showing the uglies of both sides.


I've watched Vices videos and could only stomach a few as it's an obvious anti-Russian propaganda and is quite moronic at that. It's not so obvious to you but for me who understands Russian and what people are saying and how it's translated it's pretty obvious.

An internet message board about toy soldiers in a universe where the "good guys" are theocratic feudal fascists is the wrong place to try and fight that fight. Ultimately, when people use the term, everyone gets meaning, and it's used in common conversation. Trying to pick fights over the term's origin isn't going to accomplish anything.


The word "n***r" became an racial slur which is no-no in the press today. All it took a five or six decades. I am starting early and if not me then someone else will continue to correct the injustice.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/22 02:46:40


Post by: Ustrello


Yeah labor camps in the sense they worked people to death, so just a long drawn out death camp in reality. But I guess over 1 million people dead (conservative estimates) was just an accident.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/22 03:17:29


Post by: LordofHats


To be fair, I'm pretty sure that's a smallish proportion of the number of people to actually go through the camps, cause a hell of a lot of people went through those camps in Stalin's years.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/22 03:20:30


Post by: Ustrello


It depends there are low estimates at 1.6 million all the way to 10 million. So call it 5 million to split the difference with 14 million people rotating through them that is still a 1/3rd death rate.

It still is a drop in the bucket to the nearly 25 million that stalin had killed under (once again a conservative estimate I've seen numbers up to 70 million) his regime that were not linked to ww2


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/22 03:31:10


Post by: Yaraton


The labour camp is labour camp first. I bet It would be a complete discovery for you, but in Stalin's times some of the labour camps commandants were themselves found guilty and shot dead for wasting valuable human resources.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/22 03:29:28


Post by: Ustrello


Oh yeah you weren't sent there to die no sir not at all, and don't mind that bread truck outside your apartment building at night it's delivering bread not taking people to camps.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/22 03:33:19


Post by: Yaraton


The number of "25 million killed" is complete garbage and lie. Even the Wikipedia page about the Great Purge lists only an wild estimation of deaths associated with the Great Purge between 681,692 to nearly 2 million and not all of this people had some kind of political conviction but also there were some real saboteurs, thieves, murders and rapists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ustrello wrote:
Oh yeah you weren't sent there to die no sir not at all, and don't mind that bread truck outside your apartment building at night it's delivering bread not taking people to camps.


I am glad you lived through those hard times to tell the truth.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/22 03:38:03


Post by: Ustrello


Nah it actually isn't a lie, look online and most people agree that is a low number for Russians killed by uncle joe


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/22 03:41:56


Post by: SemperMortis


Just out of curiosity, I don't really pay to much attention to this anymore. Have the Russians officially said they are fighting the Ukrainians or are they still pretending that parts of their army are running away with tanks/artillery and trucks and fighting of their own free will?

That might sound trollish or maybe attempting to bait but I actually don't know and want to know.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/22 03:43:38


Post by: Yaraton


 Ustrello wrote:
Nah it actually isn't a lie, look online and most people agree that is a low number for Russians killed by uncle joe


I have and it was wa-a-a-a-ay before this conversation. The latest number I have of the confirmed death warrants during the Great Purge is about 300K. The same with the other instances. However this is a topic about the civil war in ukraine and not about history of USSR.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
SemperMortis wrote:
Just out of curiosity, I don't really pay to much attention to this anymore. Have the Russians officially said they are fighting the Ukrainians or are they still pretending that parts of their army are running away with tanks/artillery and trucks and fighting of their own free will?

That might sound trollish or maybe attempting to bait but I actually don't know and want to know.


Do you know how the army works?


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/22 04:04:05


Post by: motyak


 Yaraton wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Just out of curiosity, I don't really pay to much attention to this anymore. Have the Russians officially said they are fighting the Ukrainians or are they still pretending that parts of their army are running away with tanks/artillery and trucks and fighting of their own free will?

That might sound trollish or maybe attempting to bait but I actually don't know and want to know.


Do you know how the army works?


Seeing as that's basically what the Russians were claiming a while ago...I'm going to say yes?


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/22 06:03:35


Post by: oldravenman3025


 Yaraton wrote:
 Ustrello wrote:
Nah it actually isn't a lie, look online and most people agree that is a low number for Russians killed by uncle joe


I have and it was wa-a-a-a-ay before this conversation. The latest number I have of the confirmed death warrants during the Great Purge is about 300K. The same with the other instances. However this is a topic about the civil war in ukraine and not about history of USSR.




That number may be too low, based on my own reading on the subject from various sources. And any claims of confirmed, absolute numbers when it comes to Stalin's murderous tendencies is to be taken with a grain of salt.


Truth of the matter is that there is no firm academic consensus on the total body count under Stalin. While there are official records, the U.S.S.R. was notorious in those days for poor record keeping. You can expect any official Soviet statistics from that era to be far higher than what is on paper. Add in the fact that a lot was covered up, destroyed, and forbidden from discussion during the de-Stalinization of the Soviet Union, and we'll never know the whole truth.

There is some truth to the old, sarcastic quip relating to state-sponsored mass murder: "The only difference between the Nazis and Communists, is that the Nazis kept better records".


One thing is clear, though. Even low estimates puts Stalin in the top three alongside Hitler and Mao.


Peace, out.







Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/22 07:08:05


Post by: Yaraton


 motyak wrote:
 Yaraton wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Just out of curiosity, I don't really pay to much attention to this anymore. Have the Russians officially said they are fighting the Ukrainians or are they still pretending that parts of their army are running away with tanks/artillery and trucks and fighting of their own free will?

That might sound trollish or maybe attempting to bait but I actually don't know and want to know.


Do you know how the army works?


Seeing as that's basically what the Russians were claiming a while ago...I'm going to say yes?


You are a different person than him, why is that? Is he dead or banned or is incapable of answering a simple question for himself?


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/22 07:13:07


Post by: Vaktathi


 Yaraton wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The "self defense forces" in Crimea turned out to not be local either

I have news for you, they "turned out to be local". If you have have a breakdown numbers I would love to see them. If not... That's just your personal opinion.
You mean the guys in Russian Army pattern uniforms, with Post-USSR Russian Federation weaponry like Pecheneg's and AK-74M's were "local" forces? Even Russian news media is clearly stating that Putin as acknowledged that they were Russian.

https://www.rt.com/news/crimea-defense-russian-soldiers-108/


That's a rather hard claim to back up from either side definitively, but both sides are freely firing area weapons into populated centers without regard for what's there, and there's zero evidence that it's simply retaliatory attacks from the DNR/LNR.


Not really. The DNR/LNR websites post daily military briefings about the shelling, where, when and if someone died/got injured. Just because you haven't seen them, it doesn't mean they don't exist.
I'm not debating or denying that the attacks don't exist or that people aren't being hurt. But let's be honest, if you're trusting the DNR/LNR online presence for accurate and fair information, well, you're braindead (just as you'd be braindead for trusting anything the Ukrainians or the Russians or any other directly involved party puts out on the subject without additional research) and even if you could trust it, it's no indication on if specific civilian buildings are being targeted or if it's just people firing and not caring where it lands or not being capable enough to aim it with any accuracy (which I suspect is the more likely issue on both sides).


Now, this isn't to say that the Ukrainians are perfect or blameless, they're not, they absolutely have done some bad things and used area weapons indiscriminately, and have massive problems with corruption and control of their forces, but if they're worse than the DNR/LNR, it's only because they've got more ammunition and the DNR/LNR guys might have to ration it more.


How do you know the "DNR/LNR guys" are as worse as ukranian forces? Is it because you have a predetermined opinion about any people who would support Russia? I would really love to know how you set your criteria for who wrong and who is right in this conflict.
Who did I say who is right or who is wrong? What on earth are you going on about?

That said, there's gobs of evidence out there of the DNR/LNR guys doing gakky stuff, tons of video showing civlians on the Ukrainian side getting their houses and apartments hit by weapons fire, just as much as there is of the DNR/LNR guys.

Hell, Vice had reporters there as bodies of people ordered shot by the DNR/LNR were dug up in Sloviansk.
https://news.vice.com/video/russian-roulette-dispatch-63



Neither side is particularly stellar in this conflict.


Agaian, just your personal opinion with no prove to support that claim.

I would really suggest watching Vice's series.




As for the video, we have zero context for anything therein (is this recent? old? are they near the DNR/LNR or is this after exercises elsewhere? Are they regulars? Nationalist volunteers?, etc), and from an obviously stilted source called "TV Patriot" with Russian flags stamped on everything, with a video titled "Армия Украины позорится на весь мир, алкаши и наркоманы, тупой и еще тупее тупого!"/"Army of Ukraine disgrace to the whole world, , Dumb and Dumber stupid!".


I believe it's from this year
Of which we have no idea or proof or context of when or where. Could be 8 years old. Could be 2 weeks old. Could be of guys done with maneuvers and partying after training. They may have been rotated off the line after heavy fighting, in which case such behavior is commonplace amongst soldiers of all nations, be they Russian, Ukrainian, American, German, Chinese, etc. ad nauseum.

We have absolutely no idea is the point, the video gives zero context and says nothing substantive other than "hey these particular guys wearing Ukrainian military uniforms were drunk at some point", which doesn't really tell us anything.


As for description, it's pretty accurate, they ukranian army depicted there is what they are - alcoholics and drug addicts who didn't have money to pay off the military recruitment center not to send them into the war.
So...based on one video of a small group of what *appears* to be Ukrainian troops being drunk...the whole army is now nothing but poor drug addicts and alcoholics?

Talk about bias and preconceptions...holy gak.


You'll forgive me if the video fails to sustain any points. It's drunk dudes with Ukrainian flags on their shirts, how many videos can we find of drunk Russian soldiers doing similar stuff? Quite a lot.


Please do, preferably something resent from either Syria or the Northern Caucasus where the Russian army is involved.
How about this, find me something of Ukrainian troops that can demonstrably be shown to be of recent vintage, with context of the situation and identifiable location in the conflict area, and we'll talk.

Because I mean otherwise I can just search videos of drunk russian soldiers and just claim they're wherever Russia is currently fighting.



If you just gonna tell me I post only "propaganda" without any support of that claim, I am gonna report you to the mods and put you on my ignore list.
Go for it. You've provided zero evidence for any claims you are making, stridently making out a single side to be perfect without any flaws while another is evil without any redeeming features, using heavily politicized and derogatory language in the process, and blindly ignoring pretty much any and all counter-arguments and examples. By all means...feel free, but I'm not particularly worried about violating forum rules in this instance.



I've watched Vices videos and could only stomach a few as it's an obvious anti-Russian propaganda and is quite moronic at that.
I mean...you can call it whatever you like...unless you have some basis with which to discuss why it is so, that doesn't mean it actually is whatever you try to call it.

I mean, they get in and film alongside the DNR/LNR guys, even frontline DNR/LNR soldiers, they show you their perspective, just as they do the Ukrainians. Here's one where they follow DNR infantry and they show you the battlefield and results of Ukrainian shelling
https://news.vice.com/video/in-the-trenches-with-the-dnr-russian-roulette-dispatch-97

They have an excellent and heartbreaking piece when they followed a DNR unit and one of the soldiers died, and here's one where they cover an American fighting *with* the DNR/LNR guys.
https://news.vice.com/video/russian-roulette-dispatch-107




An internet message board about toy soldiers in a universe where the "good guys" are theocratic feudal fascists is the wrong place to try and fight that fight. Ultimately, when people use the term, everyone gets meaning, and it's used in common conversation. Trying to pick fights over the term's origin isn't going to accomplish anything.


The word "n***r" became an racial slur which is no-no in the press today. All it took a five or six decades. I am starting early and if not me then someone else will continue to correct the injustice.
ooookay....wow. That went there. Well, since when did Gulag become a racial slur? You are literally the only person I've ever heard of in my entire life have any problem with the way this word is used in conversational english, even other native Russian speakers.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/22 07:27:08


Post by: Yaraton


 oldravenman3025 wrote:
 Yaraton wrote:
 Ustrello wrote:
Nah it actually isn't a lie, look online and most people agree that is a low number for Russians killed by uncle joe


I have and it was wa-a-a-a-ay before this conversation. The latest number I have of the confirmed death warrants during the Great Purge is about 300K. The same with the other instances. However this is a topic about the civil war in ukraine and not about history of USSR.




That number may be too low, based on my own reading on the subject from various sources. And any claims of confirmed, absolute numbers when it comes to Stalin's murderous tendencies is to be taken with a grain of salt.


Truth of the matter is that there is no firm academic consensus on the total body count under Stalin. While there are official records, the U.S.S.R. was notorious in those days for poor record keeping. You can expect any official Soviet statistics from that era to be far higher than what is on paper. Add in the fact that a lot was covered up, destroyed, and forbidden from discussion during the de-Stalinization of the Soviet Union, and we'll never know the whole truth.

There is some truth to the old, sarcastic quip relating to state-sponsored mass murder: "The only difference between the Nazis and Communists, is that the Nazis kept better records".


One thing is clear, though. Even low estimates puts Stalin in the top three alongside Hitler and Mao.


Peace, out.


I have never heard from any sources that the documents were 1) poorly recorded or kept during the Stalin's USSR 2) destroyed during de-Stalinization 3) of those who got amnestied still kept secret.
Also there is huge ideological difference between Communism and Nazism and the methods of control vary widely not only from that stand point of view but also from country to country. Not knowing the exact number of casualties you can't really compare.

Meanwhile in the modern western ukraine:



The text reads: "Ukranian Division Galicia, they were defending Ukraine"


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/22 07:46:27


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


So we have one side of the argument pointing out that there's no moral victors in a civil war while the other side (or, well, one person) is posting the equivalent of "RUSSIA STRONK!" while thumping his chest.

Auschwitz was totally primarily a work camp too; it even said so over the entrance! Why would the nazis ever lie about such a thing?


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/22 13:49:47


Post by: Tyran


So how is the ceasefire holding up?

At this point Russia seems happy with keeping up the status quo while the Ukrainian government disintegrates.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 0008/11/24 14:26:30


Post by: SemperMortis


 Yaraton wrote:
 motyak wrote:
 Yaraton wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
Just out of curiosity, I don't really pay to much attention to this anymore. Have the Russians officially said they are fighting the Ukrainians or are they still pretending that parts of their army are running away with tanks/artillery and trucks and fighting of their own free will?

That might sound trollish or maybe attempting to bait but I actually don't know and want to know.


Do you know how the army works?


Seeing as that's basically what the Russians were claiming a while ago...I'm going to say yes?


You are a different person than him, why is that? Is he dead or banned or is incapable of answering a simple question for himself?


I didn't feel it necessary to respond to such a baited question when Motyak pointed out your obvious ignorance. And from what else I have gathered from the following comments it appears Putin has officially claimed he has soldiers on orders in Ukraine?


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/22 14:39:31


Post by: Vaktathi


 Tyran wrote:
So how is the ceasefire holding up?

At this point Russia seems happy with keeping up the status quo while the Ukrainian government disintegrates.
thats kinda their thing, same happened in Georgia, "freeze" the conflicts so they arent taking anymore resources but arent resolved enough that anything can move forward.


Ukraine: Witness the rise of a new Russian Empire, live! @ 2016/04/22 14:47:33


Post by: Iron_Captain


Vaktathi wrote:
 Yaraton wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The "self defense forces" in Crimea turned out to not be local either

I have news for you, they "turned out to be local". If you have have a breakdown numbers I would love to see them. If not... That's just your personal opinion.
You mean the guys in Russian Army pattern uniforms, with Post-USSR Russian Federation weaponry like Pecheneg's and AK-74M's were "local" forces? Even Russian news media is clearly stating that Putin as acknowledged that they were Russian.

I don't think he is talking about the army, he is talking about the local forces that were there alongside the Russian army (and who actually did most of the work). They were the militia guys wearing civilian clothes or old army uniforms with old weapons.

Ustrello wrote:Nah it actually isn't a lie, look online and most people agree that is a low number for Russians killed by uncle joe

Most of those really high numbers were invented in the West during the Cold War by people who had no means whatsoever to accurately research the situation. It was nothing but Cold War propaganda. The actual Soviet archives were available to researchers for a short time during the 90's, and they revealed 799,455 executions, 1.7 million deaths in labour camps and 390,000 deaths due to forced resettlement. The total comes to 2.9 million victims of Stalin's reign. This does not include victims of situations that happened during Stalin's reign but for which Stalin is not directly responsible (and for which there usually aren't official archives) such as famine and war-related atrocities.

Also, to those saying that the Soviets did not keep good records, the Soviets were actually notoriously for keeping ridiculously detailed and extensive records on pretty much every subject imaginable. The bureacracy was (and still is in modern Russia) huge, even in the secret services. The problem is that most of those archives are safely stored away by the secret services, and no one ever gets to see them (except for a short period after the collapse of the Soviet Union under Yeltsin)