Not sure if this is best here, or possibly in one of the forums at the bottom of the page...though it sprung up from a tangent on the GW v. CHS thread and really goes outside the scope there. Feel free to bump it to a different forum if you feel the need...
To get everyone caught up on things:
Spoiler:
The Deposition of the good Prof. Grindley wrote:Q. So if the person who came up with the
6 description flamer for Games Workshop testifies
7 that they have never read Starship Troopers --
8 A. All right.
9 Q. -- you would believe that would be
10 absurd?
11 A. I would believe that would not only be
12 absurd but probably a lie. I don't believe that
13 there would be anyone working in anything to do
14 with science fiction who has not, either as a
15 child or young adult or as an adult, not read this
16 novel.
17 Q. So if there were multiple people from
18 Games Workshop saying they have never read
19 Starship Troopers, you would call them all liars?
20 MR. COOPER: Objection.
21 THE WITNESS: No, I would not call
22 someone a liar.
23 BY MR. KEENER:
24 Q. You would believe they are lying?
There was a hand flamer called a hand flamer in Laserburn, published by Bryan Ansell in about 1980. We don't know if he got the idea from Starship Troopers or invented it from fresh.
Naturally not everyone has read Starship Troopers, however it is difficult to believe that no-one ever employed in or by the 40K design studio from 1985 to 1990, while the look of Space Marines was formulated, had ever seen Star Wars or Aliens or read Starship Troopers or similar military SF books (Forever War pub.1974, etc.) It would beggar belief that a bunch of young men interested in SF and wargames would be completely unaware of those publications.
We don't really need to speculate on that though...
When I discovered fantasy, science and historical fiction in the 1960s Moorcock wasn't visible enough yet to make it into my local (Arnold) library. I was enthusiastic about Jack Vance, Clark Ashton Smith , Harry Harrison, Fritz Leiber, Keith Laumer, James Blish , Robert Sheckley, Brian Aldis , Edgar Rice Burroughs , Kurt Vonnegut, Robert Heinlein ,TH White, Cyril Judd, Fritz Leiber, Philip K Dick and others . Also Russell Thorndike, Rafael Sabatini, Hubert Cole, Alfred Duggan, Mary Renault, Henry Treece, Geoffrey Trease and Leslie Charteris.
Anyone who has read Heinlein, has likely read Starship Troopers...while he wrote other books, it was far and away his flagship book. I don't have access to my copies of Laserburn right now, but it used to actually be common practice for games developers to thank their various sources of inspiration in the front/back of their rules. He might have even referenced Starship Troopers there as well.
It is rather interesting that the guy who was pushing the creative side of things when 40K was being set down on paper (and lead) had no problem talking about the books and other artists he looked to for inspiration, while the guy who is the art director for GW references the weather and shopping centers.
Anyone who has read Heinlein, has likely read Starship Troopers...while he wrote other books, it was far and away his flagship book.
I don't want to derail this train; however, there is an entire population of readers that would disagree with you. His flagship book was Stranger in a Strange Land. Starship Troopers, although great, isn't as well known.
Anyone who has read Heinlein, has likely read Starship Troopers...while he wrote other books, it was far and away his flagship book.
I don't want to derail this train; however, there is an entire population of readers that would disagree with you. His flagship book was Stranger in a Strange Land. Starship Troopers, although great, isn't as well known.
Not to be facetious in any way, But the Heinlein book that was made into a movie was called "Starship Troopers" not "Stranger in a strange land" I'll leave the reasoning exercise as to why that is unto yourself, But strictly speaking, I read ST before the movie came out, and I was number 200 something in the queue to read it at the local library, I'll not speculate if that was a local fluke or not.
Not to be facetious in any way, But the Heinlein book that was made into a movie was called "Starship Troopers" not "Stranger in a strange land" I'll leave the reasoning exercise as to why that is unto yourself, But strictly speaking, I read ST before the movie came out, and I was number 200 something in the queue to read it at the local library, I'll not speculate if that was a local fluke or not.
I'm assuming you've never read it; otherwise you'd understand that Stranger would never translate well into a movie. Of course, to compare to that number 200 in the queue at your library, in 2012 the Library of Congress named Stranger in a Strange land one of the 88 "Books that Shaped America". So... yeah, I'd say it's a bit more of Heinleins flagship that ST.
Not to be facetious in any way, But the Heinlein book that was made into a movie was called "Starship Troopers" not "Stranger in a strange land" I'll leave the reasoning exercise as to why that is unto yourself, But strictly speaking, I read ST before the movie came out, and I was number 200 something in the queue to read it at the local library, I'll not speculate if that was a local fluke or not.
I'm assuming you've never read it; otherwise you'd understand that Stranger would never translate well into a movie. Of course, to compare to that number 200 in the queue at your library, in 2012 the Library of Congress named Stranger in a Strange land one of the 88 "Books that Shaped America". So... yeah, I'd say it's a bit more of Heinleins flagship that ST.
See the tiny flag next to my avatar? That's the Swedish flag, i.e Not united states -- not even the same continent -- And i've read _everything_ by Heinlein, although I did read SiaSL around.. 20 years ago.
But my reading habits are severely OT.
So back on track, Starship Troopers was made into a franchise, it was loosely based on the book.
The franchise includes:
4 Movies
2 Games
1 TV Series
and a few other spinoffs.
All of these are sure to have sparked more than a passing interest in the book over the years.
this link is of interest as well.
All of these are sure to have sparked more than a passing interest in the book over the years.
this link is of interest as well.
I understand; it just isn't enough. Add "stranger in a strange land" to the list of search terms; same time period. SiaSL had no movie, no games, no tv series and it still eclipses the searches for ST. So, I'm not entirely certain what it is your trying to show...
xcasex wrote: I'm not quite sure what you're aiming at either, But to answer you question, as far as popculture adoption and dissemination thereof, Starship Troopers holds a great deal of mindshare in mainstream culture.
as per this Trends query, i'm still a bit flabberghasted by your claim.
So it sort of goes to two parts, what did GW gank from SST, and is SST the most significant work of Heinlein, i.e. - his flagship work.
First second, and second first I guess.
As xcasex mentions, SST has had much more impact in pop culture than Stranger in a Strange Land. It has also influenced the way which war planners look to build military forces and remains required reading in several military academies and war colleges. Beyond that it further influenced dozens of other books which were contemporary to it and went on to be the source of inspiration for hundreds of books, movies, video games and other forms of media that have followed since.
SST also is at the top of best seller lists for various booksellers:
While Stranger in a Strange Land is a good book - if you were to ask people off the street what they had read, you will likely find more people who have read SST. If you just ask what they had heard of, it would be hands down SST, as all the unwashed masses of illiterate pleebs will have seen SST (if for nothing else than the shower scene) while the concepts which are presented in SiaSL would be beyond them.
Moving on to how it has impacted science fiction, you have of course the most obvious which would be the power armor suit itself. From the general strength enhancing, life support providing, medication/drug injecting features which he outlines - you can draw a very direct line to almost every military related science fiction game, movie or book in the last 30-40 years. Sort of like playing 6 degrees of seperation...just with Heinlein as opposed to Kevin Bacon.
However, he also introduced concepts like the orbital insertion for those infantry. The idea was barely concievable at the time for civilian applications - the first human space flight happened in 1961...while he was writing of reentry capsules for use in military insertion applications 2 years earlier. In many ways, he also created the concept of the boarding torpedo at the same time. The reentry capsules were fired out of a twin barreled gun on their spaceship.
The power armor which he laid out, was quite literally jump infantry as well. Not like we have now, but capable of making huge jet assisted leaps through the air (another idea which GW comandeered).
Of course, you have the flamer which was discussed by the Professor. Although he didn't actually develop the concept of a flame thrower (they predate him by well over 1000 years) he did use the term first. He also streamlined the concept into something which would be more useful for general military operations as opposed to the specialized tool that it was during WWI and WWII.
When I started collecting 40k I thought that the vents on the Space Marine backpacks were jump jets because the over all design of the figure resembled what I had in mind from RHH's book. I found out later that the backpack was the power source for the suit and the jump-pack was an additional bit.
It would serve reason that a true representation of RHH's MI Apesuits would likely look more like Elemental Clan armor from Battletech in which the weapon systems are integrated as opposed to being carried by the trooper. As such the GW models are a poor representation of this, a better representation are the oop Grizzly and Cougar powered armor suits from Mongoose's former SST miniatures..
The idea of wearable tank with the firepower of an infantry platoon is so powerful that a tabletop version should in fact be able to steamroll a more conventionally armed force. One or two figures tops.
xraytango wrote: When I started collecting 40k I thought that the vents on the Space Marine backpacks were jump jets because the over all design of the figure resembled what I had in mind from RHH's book. I found out later that the backpack was the power source for the suit and the jump-pack was an additional bit.
Funny you should say that. Originally - those vents were for flying. You can see it illustrated in Rogue Trader era books and catalogs. Later on they developed a different jetpack for them to use instead and made the regular backpack just a powerpack with cooling vents.
As far as GW goes, the regular PA guys would be closer to Scouts in SST while terminators would probably fit in better with the regular SST suits. IIRC, in the Laserburn rules (which introduced Dreadnought Armor) they made a similiar comparison as well...though my memory is a bit foggy on that as a lot was hinted at through poorly drawn figures. If you look at the Asgard miniature line which was produced to support Laserburn (still available through Alternative Armies) you see a similiar set of stages between the lighter armor that carries weapons and heavier armor that has weapons mounted to it.
Wasn't Stranger in a Strange Land banned in parts of the US when it was released?
I think for the purposes of this forum, undoubtedly SST has had much more of an influence - that book, along with Dune, where at the forefront of Rick Priestley and the gangs mind when they wrote the first 40k book and you would have to say one of the biggest influences.
But, in terms of wider culture, I think Stranger in a Strange land has had far more influence. I mean, there was a church formed on the basis of the book with millions of members at one point! Not sure if it is still going these days (or whether it was just fashionable for a time), but it definitely struck a chord with the hippy counter-culture at the time, at least from what I have read.
Stranger in a Strange Land is a very influential book in the development of SF, however when looking at WH40K we are interested in military SF. Starship Troopers is undoubtedly one of the most widely read and influential books in that genre.
Certainly Starship Troopers would have had a much greater impact on WH40k (and other military sci-fi) than any of his other books, although I would argue that the (terrible) movies are sufficiently different from the book as to be completely worthless. However books such as Stranger in a Strange Land have had more impact on sci-fi in general.
The film would make people aware of the novel, so some new people will have gone and read it afterwards.
Looking at the GW versus CH case, the film would probably be considered a late, unoriginal example of the "future soldier" trope that informs IG and SM. The troops in the film are very similar to the troops in Aliens.
I think Starship Troopers marks the change in Heinlein's novels to longer more adult works. Before this they were mostly shorter books suitable for younger readers, after Starship Troopers his books are distinctly more adult in many ways. It's very important as a piece in defining the military SF genre and as a novel in itself won the Hugo award.
I don't think you can argue which of Starship Troopers or Stranger is the more important or influential, they are both big contributions to SF. I'd agree with the assessment in the other thread that anyone working in SF particularly in the 80s would have read it, or at the very least be familiar with its content.
Sean_OBrien wrote: Funny you should say that. Originally - those vents were for flying. You can see it illustrated in Rogue Trader era books and catalogs. Later on they developed a different jetpack for them to use instead and made the regular backpack just a powerpack with cooling vents.
Howard A Treesong wrote: The first marines came with rules treating their backpacks as jump packs, at least that's what I recall from the back of the first plastic marine box.
Absolutely bloody wow. Before I called Bullgak on these two statements I decided to go away and do my research properly. I rarely get caught on on RT-era stuff... But this time...
Although there are zero pictures of the power packs being used as jet packs in the Rogue Trader rulebook, and there is, in fact, a picture of what would now be considered a heresy-era jump pack on page 104, on page 115 there is a diagram of Astartes armour that shows the pack as having stabilising jets. The pack as a whole is not labelled as a jet/jump pack, and in fact has air purifiers, solar panels, soolar convertor, reserve air, etc, taking up most of the space, there is this implication that it can act in at least a small way as a jump pack. My suggestion would be that the designer/author's intention would be as a slight aid to a natural jump rather than a full on jump or jet system, or to stabilise someone who is falling from a great height, but I had never spptted it before.
I also had the RTB01 box, but had never spotted that on the back, the power pack is, in fact, labelled as a jet pack: http://www.solegends.com/citrt/rtb01marines.htm Whilst I consider that as probably an error made by a graphic designer of the packaging rather than a member of the actual design team, there is a significant chance I am wrong.
Now, in support of the idea that the power pack was originally excatly that, not a jump pack, are the original Bob Naismith GW marines, (one of which I own) which have the nozzle at an angle suggesting it could never possibly be a jet/jump pack. http://www.nightsoil.co.uk/zhu/miniatures/warhammer-40k.htm
I've been through quite a few old GW's from 90 onwards, and can find no images showing regular power packs acting as jet packs, but I'd actually love to be shown one.
So, much to my surprise, I find there is something of a case that at least some people working on the game saw the power pack as at least partially capable of acting as a jump/jet pack.
I have the same model and one or two others from that series.
At the time of release I assumed the backpack was a jump jet because it looks like one. The nozzles don't seem to make engineering sense otherwise. You've got main lift nozzles on both sides and the swivelling bits above the shoulders are flexible steering jets.
Alternatively it might be a kind of two person hairdrier or a small internal combustion engine with the exhaust pipes at the top. Neither of those alternatives seemed likely to me given the base concept of a future war powered armour.
I presume when originally designed there was an idea that the backpack would be a jump jet unit, or perhaps a space manoeuvring unit. This concept probably got dropped before the game was released.
If you look at Bob's sketch in the Evolution of a Space Marine article, the nozzles are actually called out as being able to be adjusted to any angle.
There is also one picture which I recall that shows Space marines flying through the air, Buck Rodger's style using only the standard backpack (actual flight too...). I think that was in one of the Space Marine or Titan rulebooks.
The thing is it doesn't really matter what the truth is.
The fact that none of us know for sure that it is or is not a jet pack, but many of us think it is one way or the other, demonstrates that we have taken various influences from fiction and real life and come to conclusions which are not necessarily based on the developer's official explanation.
Feeding into the interpretation is the history of power armoured jet packs in Starship Troopers and other fiction.
ALTHOUGH - that image from the Ultramarines dropship has actualy been cropped, thereby not showing marines with clearly larger than powerpack sized jump packs from a side angle, so that image is effectively a fake. I am struggling to find the original again on Google though...
Speaking as someone who received a degree in literature and education, I can make the following observation about the two novels mentioned in the OP.
While SST is undoubtably the more popular novel based upon total sales and name recognition, SiaSL is considered to be the more serious literary work by academics. I have seen multiple occassions where SiaSL was on the reading lists for both college and high school courses, but have never seen SST mentioned in either location. Additionally, the subject matter for SiaSL is far more weighty than that of SST. While SST does ask an important question about patriotism and self sacrifice, SiaSL questions some of our very basic cultural assumptions about what is right, including religion, social mores, sexual mores, death rituals, and importance of wealth.
So, in my opinion, while SST is a far more influential work when it comes to the average Sci-Fi fan and/or the development of games like 40K, SiaSL is more influential from a serious literary standpoint. Heck; just last year, the US Library of Congress named SiaSL one of 88 books that shaped America. Here's the total list:
Found a fuller version of the pic. I would argue that the oen who is sideways shows that those guys have much fuller jump packs.
Still, as I said, I have been shown to be wrong in my assertion that this was bullgak. I don't think all members of the design team saw them as jet packs, but some almost certainly did, even if not for very far into the development of marines.
The comment regarding Bob Naismith's design sketches also seems valid, as the nozzles moving round would make sense too.
SiaSL is definately the more significant work from a philosophical standpoint (and I would say better written). However those issues really sort of pale when you look at the greater issues.
You see similiar issues with other authors. Many scholars view Hamlet as Shakespeare's most significant play. However, the unwashed masses would say Romeo and Juliet. Romeo and Juliet is the play that everyone knows, and can (mis)quote quite readily.
Scholars and the well read are often at odds with the regular folk in regards to what they think is important. Just look at things like the Academy Awards compared to the actual box office numbers and see what the people want versus the elite.
SST obviously influenced the power armour of the marines but beyond that...the Astartes are little more than King Arthurs Round table in Space
GW seems to have its original heart more firmly embedded in the new wave, dystopian SF of the 60's. Look at the amount of ideas "lifted" from Michael Moorcock for instance..
There is little of Heinlein's obey your father and the state ideal in the 40k universe.
For me SiaSL is the far better novel as is the whimsy of Glory Road
I'm not as convinced about SST's influence in the general sci-fi realm outside of military sci-fi and wargaming. There are so many other notable books and series (foundation, Stranger in a Strange..., etc ,etc...) that make up the cannon of great sci-fi books.
However in relation to sci-fi gaming and 40k it's long been established accepted that SST is responsible for much of what we now see as power armor in various games, most notably 40k.
I was pleased to see mentions of Dune (especially the 2nd and third books which pretty much are the emperor prototype.) and 2000AD. I'm not as familar with 2000AD, but the style of art is rampant thoughout 40k design and artwork, including many blatant ripoffs like Judge Dredd/Adeptus Arbites.
Put another way, If you take a stick of Warhammer (75% tolkein, 25% British wit) add two tablespoons of Starship troopers, a half cup of Dune, cut it out in the shapes of 2000AD and bake until golden, the result is Rogue Trader cookies.
wilycoyote wrote: SST obviously influenced the power armour of the marines but beyond that...the Astartes are little more than King Arthurs Round table in Space
GW seems to have its original heart more firmly embedded in the new wave, dystopian SF of the 60's. Look at the amount of ideas "lifted" from Michael Moorcock for instance..
There is little of Heinlein's obey your father and the state ideal in the 40k universe.
For me SiaSL is the far better novel as is the whimsy of Glory Road
Regarding your first point, its important to realise the conception of marines changed a lot towards the end of 1st edition, towards the 'Knights in Space' conception you speak of. Before that, Marines were very heavily influenced by the 'Sardakur' from the book Dune - essentially survivors taken from the deadliest worlds, often the most ruthless killers (that bit still applies in some cases) - these were then 'chemically hardened' (before the concepts surrounding genetic engineering had really entered the public consciousness), given armour and a gun, and thrown at the enemy. But, there wasn't anything particularly noble about them (other than their bonds of brotherhood) - in some ways these standard marines have now become the chaos marines in modern 40k, even though really they were the original conception of the idea within 40k.
This is why you have a little bit of discord these days between some of the chapter names (Flesh Tearers, Space Wolves etc.) and the image of a knight, speaking with a He-Man style echo in his nicely enunciated voice, saying "I smite thee, heathen".
It's also interesting to note how the artwork has changed - the first edition rulebook is full of marines being blown up, cut to pieces, gunned down. These days you would struggle to find a picture of such a thing in any of the current books, or even one of a wounded marine for that matter. The was much less 'black and white', in terms of good guys and bad guys, the game wasn't aimed at kids (which immediately made it much more attractive to them ) and really the concept of the marine was much more ambiguous than it is often portrayed as today.
I guess ultimately it's a subjective thing concerning which conception of the 'marine' you prefer, although it's interesting to note how it has changed over the years.
Yes that's right - just like the Sardakur (and the Freemen for that matter) in Dune. Not all of them though, the defining factor was that they had come from the deadliest of worlds , where only the absolute strongest would survive, and would by extension produce the strongest of warriors.
Actually the seminal book 'Space Marine' has one of the main characters come from this kind of environment, and there are bits of it that still exist in the background to this day (the Night Lords etc.) Of course, one can't help but feel that this would be exactly the kind of thing the commanders of the future would look for, and that cut-throats from the streets of Nostromo, for whom every day is a fight for survival, would make better fighters than some farmers son from Ultramar
Pacific wrote: Yes that's right - just like the Sardakur (and the Freemen for that matter) in Dune. Not all of them though, the defining factor was that they had come from the deadliest of worlds , where only the absolute strongest would survive, and would by extension produce the strongest of warriors.
Minor point:
The Sardukar were not necessarily "criminals". They were recruited from the population of penal colonies, but the make-up of said colonies involved political enemies as well as actual criminals.
Fremen were the descendants of escaped slaves, who in turn were the descendants of individuals who refused to fight during the whole Butlerian Jihad and the uprising of the Titans.
You know, after reading a lot of Dredd, I think I can see where the idea of hive cities came from. I'd not call it a copy pasta before anyone shouts that!
Giant megacities or arcologies existed in SF before Judge Dredd and the concept is derived from actual architectural theory.
The point is, though, that very many of GW's elements in 40K are not only obviously drawn from specific sources like Starship Troopers and Judge Dredd, they are often such widely used ideas in the genres that it is barely possible to identify a specific originating source at all, especially when you are looking at a group of creative people who went about their jobs without the rigour of an academic search of the literature and citation of their references.
Personally I am surprised that the judge considered the large size of the shoulder pad an original feature worthy of copyright.
However there is still the argument to come from the copyright office.
BrookM wrote: Guess I belong to the "unwashed masses" as I have read neither. OP, you come across as a bit of a snob.
I do at times, though mostly it was sarcasm.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Yep, if you look back at engineering and technology magazines from the 1930s and on you would see some sort of megacity design pop up every year or two. I would need to double check, but I seem to recall one designed by Frank Lloyd Wright as well.
The Space Marines have all sorts of specific sources for their organization as well. You have several examples of a chosen 1000 which are augmented in order to stand against a civilization's enemies. Off the top of my head you have the Space Knights from Space Knight Rom. I know I have a few more, but their specifics slip my mind.
Personally I am surprised that the judge considered the large size of the shoulder pad an original feature worthy of copyright.
However there is still the argument to come from the copyright office.
I would need to double check what was offerred as evidence at the time, but the court only has to take into account what is entered into evidence.
It is possible that W&S thought Dredd would be common knowledge, but without specifically pointing it out, he didnt nescessarily consider it. I believe it made it into the report this time around though...which might mean that it also gets into the reconsideration of the shoulderpads.
They're just two of the most influential sci fi works ever written...
I would assume people that like a given thing, especially those into speculative fiction, would pursue and read such novels or at the very least be aware of them or read a summary.
Starship Troopers certainly isn't to everyone's taste, it frequently reads like a lecture/essay from Heinlein where you the line between his politics and him being a devil's advocate isn't so clear, though it doesn't stop people using it to label Heinlein one way or the other. People who have seen the film are likely to be surprised how little the bugs are in it and how different it is overall.
I've heard that's the case, which makes the movie all the more hilarious, as it's more of a parody of the book and its preaching about the perfect political system rather than a proper movie of it.
I have seen the old anime OVA's of Starship Troopers, though I think that might still not be enough to appease the snobs.
I want to read a story, not have the author tell me how he envisions the perfect society to be.
But feth it, there are books for every genre out there THAT YOU MUST READ OR YOU DO NOT BELONG IN OUR LITTLE CIRCLE JERK. When I showed interest in Cyberpunk I was told I HAD to read Neuromancer, because otherwise I wouldn't "get" it or get in the group, because.. What the hell.
Probably because without Neuromancer, this is no Cyberpunk. It started the genre, and is still pretty much the perfect example. I've read a lot of cyberpunk, and nobody's done it as well as Gibson's Mona Lisa Overdrive trilogy. Without it, there's no Cyberpunk 2020, there's no Shadowrun, there's no Deus Ex. The main characters in all those games are pretty much lifted straight from Neuromancer. So yeah, go read that.
I read it, chill Adolph, I found it a tad boring though. I liked Snowcrash and Ready Player One a whole lot better. But the GM did not entirely approve of those, the snob..
Pacific is right, the main influence on the early concept of the Space Marine are the ‘Sadukar’ from Dune, mixed in with Judge Dredd.
The Space Marines were originally conceived as the ‘big bad’ of the Rogue Trader universe. It’s important to understand the original concept of Warhammer 40k was ‘Rogue Trader’, a semi-roleplaying skirmish game. In this game, players would be using a small group of models based around their Rogue Trader character and his/her associates, which would battle elements of the 40kk universe. The army, the judges, aliens, wierd monsters from the bestiary, and other rogue traders. The Space Marines were the elite forces the players warband might have to overcome at the culmination of a campaign or story (kind of like Storm Troopers in Star Wars). This is why the rulebook is full of space marines being shot up, and the original chapters had such goofy bad-guy sounding names (Blood Angels, Flesh Eaters, Ultramarines Lionel Johnson, founder of the Dark Angels etc).
Physically the design is based on the chaos warrior. Chaos warriors were GW’s best-selling miniature line, so the design directive was ‘make them like chaos warriors’. Someone along the line added the womble head, can’t remember who.
Oh I'm not averse to reading them - I just find that if I read books that get recommended too much, I don't enjoy them enough. Hype, expectations, etc. I'll get to them when I feel like it.
Not having read Dune or SST doesn't mean I don't 'get' sci fi - that's just being ridiculous. I might not understand some references, which I'm cool with.
BrookM wrote: I've heard that's the case, which makes the movie all the more hilarious, as it's more of a parody of the book and its preaching about the perfect political system rather than a proper movie of it.
The book states pretty clearly it's not a perfect system; it's just a system.
The movie being a parody is true; the script was adapted from one originally written called 'Bug Hunt' and they threw in some SST references, and the director (Verhoeven) started reading the book but didn't like it so decided he wanted to make a sci fi WW2 movie in space.
You should definitely read it. It's short and it'll only take a few hours and is a fantastic read. (there IS a reason why it is an award winning novel)
IMHO it's in the "big three" of Heinlein: Starship Troopers, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, and Stranger in a Strange Land. All three are absolutely fantastic.
-Loki- wrote: Oh I'm not averse to reading them - I just find that if I read books that get recommended too much, I don't enjoy them enough. Hype, expectations, etc. I'll get to them when I feel like it.
Not having read Dune or SST doesn't mean I don't 'get' sci fi - that's just being ridiculous. I might not understand some references, which I'm cool with.
Yes, but they are good books though, especially Dune which is well regarded even amongst the kind of literary circles who traditionally shun science fiction.. SST for its philosophical musings as much as the kick-ass fighting suits, and Dune is just so.. well, epic, in the original sense of the term. You will read it and think how bonkers David Lynch was to try and make a movie of it...
Also, you can realise how much of 40k (definitely Rogue Trader, but even to an extent the current universe) borrowed from the book. Practically everything
Pacific wrote: Yes, but they are good books though, especially Dune which is well regarded even amongst the kind of literary circles who traditionally shun science fiction.. SST for its philosophical musings as much as the kick-ass fighting suits, and Dune is just so.. well, epic, in the original sense of the term. You will read it and think how bonkers David Lynch was to try and make a movie of it...
Also, you can realise how much of 40k (definitely Rogue Trader, but even to an extent the current universe) borrowed from the book. Practically everything
Agreed.
I think everyone can agree that you can enjoy 40k and (military sci-fi in general) without reading Dune and SST. No doubt some folks will not even enjoy those books. Also, we all share a certain disdain for those who look down on others who haven't read them.
However, that doesn't change the fact that to understand the roots of 40k and much of what sci-fi has come afterwards (if that's important to you) you have to read them. In a very real sense, they make up the "reading list" for seeing the roots of many of the ideas that make up 40k.
It's the same with sci-fi in general, there's a sort of flexible "cannon" of classic sci-fi works. The more you read of it, the more you understand what comes later. Of course you don't have to read it, but to deny the perspective and knowledge of the genre gained by doing so is nonsensical.
I have read SST, but couldn't get into Dune. Its so horribly dry, it makes a pun of itself. I also couldn't finish LoTR, either, due to the fact that Tolkein couldn't write about a white wall without a three chapter description entailing every last detail of said wall's 30,000 year history and if it was any other color and why it was that color, who had painted it, and if their 6th cousin's daughter's boyfriend had acne.... that might be hyperbole.
Foundation, Dune, Starship Troopers, the Forever War, Bill - the Galactic Hero, Judge Dredd, the Eternal Champion...
They all inspired the setting of Warhammer 40,000, just as they have all inspired and continue to inspire authors down the generations. To say that GW "ripped off", "stole" or "copied" any of them is ridiculous. I write short science fiction professionally, but I've never read SST and don't especially feel I've missed anything. I expect I'll pick it up eventually, but I can't say that I consider it seminal to my understanding of science fiction.
On the other hand, I have no doubt that many authors who have had an effect on my writing and imagination have read SST, so indirectly it seems highly likely that Heinlein has had an effect upon my relationship with SF, whether I read him or not.
If I include power armoured troopers in an SF story, I'm not "copying" Heinlein; I'm tapping into a logical progression that can be traced through history in which arms and armour are locked in a permanent cycle - the original arms race.
I often see SST and Ender's Game cited as being on the "required reading list" for military academies, btw. I can't speak for the US, but I'd be surprised if more than one in ten of entrants at the UK's military academies of Sandhurst, Dartmouth, Lympstone and Cranwell have read either and, if they have, that they see any relevance to their careers.
GW ripped off the settings when they claimed that the inspiration they took from common genre tropes was theirs and theirs alone.
It is absolutely fine to take inspiration from previous sources, That is how knowledge and art progresses. But GW have tried to sequester those sources to themselves.
Oh, absolutely. In the context of the CHS/GW thread, I totally agree with you, Kk. But in the context of *this* thread and whether GW "ripped off" Heinlein, no, they didn't. But they were inspired by the full gamut of 50s-70s SF/fantasy to create something new, exciting and living that continues to create new and imaginative stories on tabletops around the world.
Well, I'm sure there are much more comprehensive lists somewhere comparing the similarities between 40k and Dune, but off the top of my head
- aforementioned Sardakur/Freemen were the inspiration for how marines are brought into existence, and with the former in particular they had the same mode of operation as the early marines in RT (and some chapters still do in the current fluff)
- Lasguns! - navigator guilds, sub-human species who were able to chart the spaces between stars thanks to the spice - gradually becoming less part of the human race as time went on.
- The Butlerian Jihad in Dune (an ancient war between humans and AI), leading to the banning of all forms of AI, and humans then taking that role (who were often augmented) - I can't remember their name, but there were those who had replaced almost all of their bodies with machine parts.
I'm sure there are others! Actually, thinking about the book makes me really want to read it again (the first trilogy at least)
Don't forget the whole concept of the Emperor is taken from Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. One little paragraph about how the galactic empire where the emperor is kept alive in stasis fields and his will is interpreted and executed by a ruling council.
silent25 wrote: Don't forget the whole concept of the Emperor is taken from Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. One little paragraph about how the galactic empire where the emperor is kept alive in stasis fields and his will is interpreted and executed by a ruling council.
Or is that book too lowbrow for this thread
Afraid not, though certain aspects may be woven into the 40k emperor. No doubt some of the 40k writers had read Hitchikers.
Far more likely though that the Emperor is taken from the third Dune Book "God Emperor of Dune". Emperor becoming less and less human, ruling over a universe that has come to worship him as a God, etc, etc.
If I may re-share my initial recipe
-A stick of Warhammer (75% tolkein, 25% British wit)
-Add two tablespoons of Starship troopers
-Stir in a half cup of Dune,
-Cut it out in the shapes of 2000AD and bake until golden,
Seems I'm with many others here, there's little Heinlein in 40k beyond power armor. Frank Herbert and Gene Wolfe being its most obvious sources of inspiration.
Other than that, I can't understand the interest in dissing 40k for being a derivative setting. I can't think of anything more derivative than Star Wars, which is essentially Kurosawa's "The Hidden Fortress" with a 1930s pulp sci-fi treatment , and while Lucas has had a more or less lenient attitude to IP matters, if you dare cross the line you'll eventualy find the lawyers knocking at your door.
GW's defense of their IP is fierce to the point of absurdity. I'd certainly like it better if they relaxed a wee bit, but I think pointing out that certain ideas have been used before in some other media is NOT the way to go to achieve it. IP law just doesn't work that way.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eilif wrote: Far more likely though that the Emperor is taken from the third Dune Book "God Emperor of Dune".
Also Severian from the avobe-mentioned "Book of The New Sun" tetralogy, by Gene Wolfe
It really isnt dissing 40K for being derivative...anyone with a lick of sense understands that most fiction is derivative, but when a company like GW sues another company (or attempts to block the sale of products) then it becomes more important to point out the things that came before hand that GW has taken from.
You will often hear people saying that GW should sue Bungie for HALO and the like as well...so it is plenty apparent that people really dont understand that there isnt much unique to the 40K setting either.
Suing Bungie? Not for Halo but for their upcoming game. And Corvus Belli should, too. Man, it's 40k meets Infinity. And I love it.
Jokes aside, it's mostly a matter of media. The ChS lawsuit is dealing with an issue of industrial design. If ChS was able to find other instances of wargaming miniatures with similar feaatures to those of GW's Space Marines, they might stand a chance. That way they could argue that their designs are sufficiently generic.
See how Mantic, for instance, has had no troubles in making a race of spacefaring, barbaric green-skinned "orx", but has taken great care that their Enforcers, while conceptually similar to GW's Astartes, remained completely different visually.
It's taking the piss for anyone at GW to pretend that the game world wasn't inspired to a great extent by prior works. Very little of it was originally taken seriously, and large quanties were lifted wholesale from whatever sources the authors enjoyed or found amusing. An Inquisitor named Obi-Wan Sherlock Clouseau is pretty darn indicative of the attitude and mindset. As is an entire world of overmuscled t-shirt wearing Vietnam-movie style soldiers, including a particularly heroic specimen called Sly Marbo.
While over the years they've clearly become much more interested in adding and delineating original ideas and concepts, they're never going to be able to get away with pretending that Dune, SST, 2000AD and Moorcock weren't major influences, or claiming ownership or origination of concepts like a Space Marine or a Flamer. It's just silly, and I don't think it's anything the original creators would ever have the gall to try.
What's that maxim about defending IP again? The one about how the farther a given defender is from the person who actually invented the thing, the bigger and more zealous a jerk they are in their defense?
Agent_Tremolo wrote: Suing Bungie? Not for Halo but for their upcoming game. And Corvus Belli should, too. Man, it's 40k meets Infinity. And I love it.
Jokes aside, it's mostly a matter of media. The ChS lawsuit is dealing with an issue of industrial design. If ChS was able to find other instances of wargaming miniatures with similar feaatures to those of GW's Space Marines, they might stand a chance. That way they could argue that their designs are sufficiently generic.
See how Mantic, for instance, has had no troubles in making a race of spacefaring, barbaric green-skinned "orx", but has taken great care that their Enforcers, while conceptually similar to GW's Astartes, remained completely different visually.
They wont sue Mantic because the British Supreme court has already explicitly ruled that toy soliers are designs and the term for an exclusive design right expires after 15 year at most. Subsequent designs which are substantially based on that original design are timed based on that original design. As a result, space marines, eldar, orks and large portions of the tau and necron armies would be free for other companies to blatantly copy.
As far as preexisting works, look to Asgard miniatures, Ion Age miniatures and most other scifi art that included power armor. Works like Gamma World, Traveller, Cyberpunk and even many of the Battletech books included armor derived from medieval plate. When you start at that point and move towards power armor, you end up at the same point. Things like the shoulder pad are as much an issue of the technology used to create them as it is an actual design choice.
silent25 wrote: Don't forget the whole concept of the Emperor is taken from Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. One little paragraph about how the galactic empire where the emperor is kept alive in stasis fields and his will is interpreted and executed by a ruling council.
Or is that book too lowbrow for this thread
Afraid not, though certain aspects may be woven into the 40k emperor. No doubt some of the 40k writers had read Hitchikers.
Far more likely though that the Emperor is taken from the third Dune Book "God Emperor of Dune". Emperor becoming less and less human, ruling over a universe that has come to worship him as a God, etc, etc.
Hitchhiker's was 1979, 1978 if you count the radio drama. God Emperor of Dune was 1981.
silent25 wrote: Don't forget the whole concept of the Emperor is taken from Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. One little paragraph about how the galactic empire where the emperor is kept alive in stasis fields and his will is interpreted and executed by a ruling council.
Or is that book too lowbrow for this thread
Afraid not, though certain aspects may be woven into the 40k emperor. No doubt some of the 40k writers had read Hitchikers.
Far more likely though that the Emperor is taken from the third Dune Book "God Emperor of Dune". Emperor becoming less and less human, ruling over a universe that has come to worship him as a God, etc, etc.
Hitchhiker's was 1979, 1978 if you count the radio drama. God Emperor of Dune was 1981.
And, Rogue Trader didn't come out until 1987.
I don't argue the dates, but I still favor the Dune series as a stronger influence. Plus as you say it's "one little paragraph" from Hitchikers whereas so much else (lasguns, navigators, etc...) is drawn from the Dune series. Still it's an argument that will go on unless the original writers are on record somewhere.
I don't argue the dates, but I still favor the Dune series as a stronger influence. Plus as you say it's "one little paragraph" from Hitchikers whereas so much else (lasguns, navigators, etc...) is drawn from the Dune series. Still it's an argument that will go on unless the original writers are on record somewhere.
Actually it came out in 86, not 87, but was more responding to the comments that Hitchhiker's drew from the same reference.
Foundation was also an influence.
A planet where the capital city of the empire covers the planet?
Trantor. Hive world.
Bil the galactic hero also took the piss out of this trope (losing the street directory has a steep penalty).
It's (foundation) even more dense prose than Dune (but at least he didn't spend 37 pages describing the way the golden sheen scintillated in the sunlight and delve into the backstory of all who had beheld it. So it was less dense than Lotr).
Mannahnin wrote: It's taking the piss for anyone at GW to pretend that the game world wasn't inspired to a great extent by prior works. Very little of it was originally taken seriously, and large quanties were lifted wholesale from whatever sources the authors enjoyed or found amusing. An Inquisitor named Obi-Wan Sherlock Clouseau is pretty darn indicative of the attitude and mindset. As is an entire world of overmuscled t-shirt wearing Vietnam-movie style soldiers, including a particularly heroic specimen called Sly Marbo.
While over the years they've clearly become much more interested in adding and delineating original ideas and concepts, they're never going to be able to get away with pretending that Dune, SST, 2000AD and Moorcock weren't major influences, or claiming ownership or origination of concepts like a Space Marine or a Flamer. It's just silly, and I don't think it's anything the original creators would ever have the gall to try.
What's that maxim about defending IP again? The one about how the farther a given defender is from the person who actually invented the thing, the bigger and more zealous a jerk they are in their defense?
I think this is how most people feel to be honest.
I don't think anyone really has a problem that 40k was influenced by so many sources, and especially considering that 40k has gone on to become such an evocative setting. The problem lies when the same company tries to turn around and start stomping on people for using the same concepts that they themselves borrowed, even when those other examples are quite obviously completely un-connected to what GW are doing.
I would actually posit that the concept, at least though not the name, of hive cities goes back to Fritz Lang's silent movie Metropolis. Also in the movie "Things to Come" based on H.G. Well's book, there is what you might consider a hive city only it is burrowed in to the ground instead of being built up high. That movie also has a couple of interesting parts that seem to be similar to pre-imperial terra, you'll see what I mean when you watch it.
Wells used a lot of the hive city concept. I know it mentioned in When the Sleeper Wakes and that was published in the 1890s. Futurists in the hay-days of the industrial revolution often speculated on how best to deal with the booming urban populations and various forms of hive cities were often the solution which was chosen. Once you had the first major steel and concrete buildings go up, it became almost an assumed fact of things to come.
Regarding official word from the authors' on what inspired them, you have the Lost and the Damned interviews which happened relatively recently and you also have a variety of older interviews where people like Ansell and Priestley discuss the things that they were thinking of when they designed various rules and settings (or cracked the whip to get it done).
I often see SST and Ender's Game cited as being on the "required reading list" for military academies, btw. I can't speak for the US, but I'd be surprised if more than one in ten of entrants at the UK's military academies of Sandhurst, Dartmouth, Lympstone and Cranwell have read either and, if they have, that they see any relevance to their careers.
Can't say anything for actually military academies but I do know that Starship Troopers has been on and off the Marine Corp's professional reading list pretty much since it was published. (Yes Marines read. You're shocked I know)
To the best of my knowledge these books are usually "recommended reading", rather than "required". SST and Ender's Game both contain very relevant material about the mindset amd proper attitudes of an officer and a leader in a military organization.
I would argue that Ender's Game follows Clausewitz in recommending the prosecution of the decisive battle within total war.
This scenario continues to elude modern western forces in their struggles against the Taleban, etc. Thus, other texts should perhaps be consulted in preference.
Kilkrazy wrote: I would argue that Ender's Game follows Clausewitz in recommending the prosecution of the decisive battle within total war.
This scenario continues to elude modern western forces in their struggles against the Taleban, etc. Thus, other texts should perhaps be consulted in preference.
I'd concur that Ender's Game's military strategy follows that of Clausewitz and Jomni, and that those same strategies are nigh useless when planning for COIN operations. Maneuver Warfare is the more modern strategy followed by the US military, and it's more rooted in Mongolian military theory under Genghis Khan, who I would argue had a pretty fantastic counter insurgent program as well. Hard for people to resist you when you burn a village and make a pile of human skulls at the former center of town. Sadly we can only use his Cavalry tactics instead of that. Hearts, minds and not being a group of despotic psychopaths.
It's been a while since I read Jomini, but wasn't his "Art of War" considered the very root of the Western manoeuvre warfare tradition adopted by Patten and Montgomery et al, right up to Schwarzkopf and beyond?
Not arguing with that. It just seemed odd to me to ascribe the philosophy of Total War to Jomini, when he is usually Serb as the father of manoeuvre warfare (albeit one based on skirmishers on horse back and professional riflemen).
I've always thought of Jomini as an inheritor to Vaubaun "engineering" military science where Clausewitz copied/adapted to Napoleonic tactics more directly. Both based their theories on Napoleon, who was the real father of maneuver warfare in Europe. I base that on Jomni's mild obsession with the "geometry" of war based on territory control where Clausewitz's "triarch" approaches the concept of warfare from all angles. Of course wiser heads then mine have been debating this sort of thing since the date of publication of Jomni and Clausewitz's respective works. (Though Jomni of course had several)
Mannahnin wrote: It's taking the piss for anyone at GW to pretend that the game world wasn't inspired to a great extent by prior works. Very little of it was originally taken seriously, and large quanties were lifted wholesale from whatever sources the authors enjoyed or found amusing. An Inquisitor named Obi-Wan Sherlock Clouseau is pretty darn indicative of the attitude and mindset. As is an entire world of overmuscled t-shirt wearing Vietnam-movie style soldiers, including a particularly heroic specimen called Sly Marbo.
It wouldn't surprise me if a number of younger staff really think it is entirely original. Almost all the people that created the game and laid the foundations are gone, and the company is now old enough that many younger GWers have the bulk of their exposure to SF from GW, and cinema. Neither are original sources for most stuff. While most of the creatives that wrote the original game were SF fans that would have read books like Starship Troopers and Dune as their inspiration, those currently working for GW have largely only digested GW material. That could explain the poor quality of creative content from GW today, which consists of 'kewl' stuff about people slaughtering demons/sisters of battle and packing it full off OTT characters, rather than any grander, more impressive ideas.
Howard... as a guy in my mid twenties who's read and passionately loved the Three Grand Masters as well as Mr. Herbet's Dune I gotta say your post depressed the hell out of me.
I'm surprised no-one's mentioned Gilman's excellent Rhada books (1960s) as inspiration for GW --
"The future is primitive: society is feudal, science is suspect; the past is fragmentary: shards, sonnets, the ruin of the Empire State. Linking the future-present and the fragmentary past are the spaceships built long before, now guided by the incantations of navigator-priests; a further link with the Golden Age when men colonized the galaxy, established a stable Empire, and created cybernetic organisms to do their dirty work is the cyborg star king Tallan. Constructed secretly as the creature of the Regent-Empress Marlana who would usurp the throne and shatter the unity achieved again by Glamiss the Magnificent, he turns against her; to prevent his dominating the galaxy and destroying the Empire, Kier, star king of Rhada, who has previously rebelled against Marlana, challenges Tallan to single combat and kills him, at the possible cost of his reason. So ends the present volume, the first of a trilogy, of which the foregoing is only orientation and outline extracted from a refractory and highly allusive narrative; as the story develops; Rhad is the central figure, and the blind, mind-reading Vulks Gret and Erit are the most interesting. Mr. Gilman (a pseudonym) is of coarse commenting on the human condition from mistrust of knowledge to propensity for self-destruction, assisted by putative and actual quotes at the beginning of each chapter, and he's as up-to-date as Chairman Mao. It's a compelling construct that requires close application and a considerable frame of reference; young people who are assaying adult science fiction for its insights are the likely readers."
Speaking of my personal experience, I have never heard of Gilman before today, despite having been an SF fan since the early 70s. As a youth I should have been the prime target for these apparently "young adult market" books. It's easy to suppose that the GW designers, who are of a similar age and cultural background to me, may never have seen them.
I would hold that Dune is the more likely inspiration, owing to the Butlerian Jihad being an obvious model for the was of the Metal Men or whatever 40K calls its "Rise of the Machines" trope. Dune also predates Rhada by several years, and is overall a more famous book.
There is no need to find the well-springs of 40K's Imperium in SF, though. The slide of a mighty empire into decadent collapse and superstitious dark ages is familiar to western culture through the historical examples of the Roman and Ottoman Empires.
True enough. I read "The Navigator of Rhada" as a kid, but I recognise that Gilman's not as popular as he really should be. Took me a while to track down the rest of his books. I do think that one of the things I loved about 40K was that the setting reminded me of Gilman's, though.
Raise your hand here, anyone who thought that Roboute Guilliman was based on Robert Goulet for his work in Camelot? It was an easy mistake for sure especially when you consider the similarities of SM's to knights.
I was never convinced that this was truly the case, however it was the best suggestion at the time, so I went along with it.
Now we know that there was a writer named Robert Gilman, which is a much closer and reasonable source for the name of the Ultramarine's primarch both in name and in the fact that he wrote a setting that is so very prototypical of the 40k empire. Undoubtedly this was far more the inspiration as it never made sense that the writers of 40k would mine a poncey musical's cast for names.
They mined Dante Alighieri's work for the Blood angel names originally - then they added choices from a poll of 12 year old boys for some of the new stuff. See "bloodeverything".
They mined biblical sources for Dork angels.
I read Starship Troops and never heard of Stranger. The only other Heinlein book I have is Pale Horse, so...there is that.
I liked the book and it's politics, but I never got why it has been considered so contraversial. I thought despite the policitical angle it was vanilla sci-fi military and unoffensive.
That said, it does amaze me on how GW is acting as of late in regards to CH and the actions against Spots the Space Marine.
And claim they are the originators of the things they try to claim as IP.
P.S. I to have never read Dune, and only saw the first movie.
In the mid 50s, the idea of a military based government surely would have been quite controversial thanks to WW2 and the continuation of conscription through the Korean War.
I think you have to look at the book within its time of original publication.
Just my 2 cents, but I'm not really seeing much influence from Asimov's Foundation series. I think that might be a bit of a stretch if you ask me, as the themes were quite a bit different, and psychohistory, one of the core themes of the original Foundation Trilogy, has little real bearing on the 40K universe as a setting, although one could say that the Emperor's Manifest Destiny for Mankind could have been influenced.
If I recall, back in the early 80s, GW actually published or at least supported a Judge Dredd role playing game, so that easily explains the JD influence on 40K, as I'm thinking many of the original writers/designers worked on the JD game. They also supported alot of other roleplaying systems in White Dwarf, and THAT is where I believe much of the 40K universe was shaped. They did adventures for all sorts of game systems back then, heck, they even did one for Paranoia!
The biggest reason that books like SST are controversial is tye ones who deem things as such tend to be academics and their frame of reference tends to reflect that as opposed to what regular folks might think.
SST was written during the height of the Red Scare in the US, and many regular people agreed with the premises of serving the country and all that. Acadamia though had begun to shift further into a leftist posture that was beginning to abhor all things military and you had the various disarmament groups forming amongst the talking heads. SST was actually in many ways a response to that movement...which since it went against their position, automatically makes it controversial.
SiaSL on the other hand was actually able to be bent out of his original intent and as a result is generally better recieved by academia. Heinlein's Libertarian philosophy was bent into a leftist hippy idealized books, something which annoyed Heinlein greatly, as he was firmly against the peacenik ideals.
i find there to be heavy influences from John Steakly's book Armor (marines) and David Drakes, Hammers Slammers series ("grav Tanks aside" Imperial guard).
Admittedly these books themselves have influences from earlier books in sci fi. such as heinlein, herbert and asminov. GW is foolish in thinking there precious ip isnt influenced by any of these Novels.
Btw anyone who has enjoyed SST will absolutly love Armor.
Armor is amazing; loved that book since I was a teenager. It and The Forever War were both written in reaction to SST. Steakley at least in part because he wanted action scenes (which Heinlein doesn't really do, per se), and Haldeman because he was a much more anti-war veteran, and wanted to show a very different possible military future.
ClassicCarraway wrote: Just my 2 cents, but I'm not really seeing much influence from Asimov's Foundation series. I think that might be a bit of a stretch if you ask me, as the themes were quite a bit different, and psychohistory, one of the core themes of the original Foundation Trilogy, has little real bearing on the 40K universe as a setting, although one could say that the Emperor's Manifest Destiny for Mankind could have been influenced.
If I recall, back in the early 80s, GW actually published or at least supported a Judge Dredd role playing game, so that easily explains the JD influence on 40K, as I'm thinking many of the original writers/designers worked on the JD game. They also supported alot of other roleplaying systems in White Dwarf, and THAT is where I believe much of the 40K universe was shaped. They did adventures for all sorts of game systems back then, heck, they even did one for Paranoia!
Foundation: Mainly the capital of the empire (Trantor) being a city covering a planet. Hive world style. It was one of a number of influences for Priestley and Halliwell, not the SOLE one or even a major one. Likewise Harry Harrison's Deathworld series (and also Stainless steel rat. The origin of the .75 cal recoilless weapon so beloved of marines) - Pyrrus makes Catachan seem like a gardens spot.
As for the GW "support" for other games in WD - GW PUBLISHED D&D, Paranoia and a few other games in the UK. It was only normal for them to "support" the products they published.
They also had the rights from Fleetway publications for games based on their IP (Rogue trooper, Judge Dredd), publishing several board games and an rpg for JD)
Don't forget the Dystopian silliness of Bill, the Galactic Hero, which lampooned many popular SF tropes of the 70s. Early 40k shared much of the same sense of bleak humour.
grrrfranky wrote: Certainly Starship Troopers would have had a much greater impact on WH40k (and other military sci-fi) than any of his other books, although I would argue that the (terrible) movies are sufficiently different from the book as to be completely worthless. However books such as Stranger in a Strange Land have had more impact on sci-fi in general.
i will give you that the 2nd and 3rd movies were god awful abominations. And the first movie was VERY far off from the book. But it is the best awful movie ever made.
Mannahnin wrote: Armor is amazing; loved that book since I was a teenager. It and The Forever War were both written in reaction to SST. Steakley at least in part because he wanted action scenes (which Heinlein doesn't really do, per se), and Haldeman because he was a much more anti-war veteran, and wanted to show a very different possible military future.
Is The Forever War worth the read? I read a synopsis of it and really like the concept, I've just never gotten around to reading it. Need to dig up Moorcock as well sometime.
Mannahnin wrote: Armor is amazing; loved that book since I was a teenager. It and The Forever War were both written in reaction to SST. Steakley at least in part because he wanted action scenes (which Heinlein doesn't really do, per se), and Haldeman because he was a much more anti-war veteran, and wanted to show a very different possible military future.
Is The Forever War worth the read? I read a synopsis of it and really like the concept, I've just never gotten around to reading it. Need to dig up Moorcock as well sometime.
) and really the concept of the marine was much more ambiguous than it is often portrayed as today.
