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Post by: FenWulf29
So with the release of the eldar GW is becoming very predictable - a new army update every month - and it nearly always comes with a 2 in 1 flyer kit (the daemons are the only exception). And not only that, as they are rushing out new armies every month it seems that has been a lack of effort spent on them. For instance there hasn't been a realese nearly as good as the Dark Eldar, and to a lesser extent BA. So would you rather go back to the old style when therer was an army update every 3-4 months, but the armies had much better quality?
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Post by: AduroT
What all did Eldar end up with new? Flier kit, plastic Wraithguard and that Wraith Knight? Anything else?
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Post by: ExNoctemNacimur
I suppose though that the line didn't need such an extensive update like the DE needed.
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Post by: geordie09
There are a few individual plastic minis in the release.
A larger scale Avatar in plastic would have put the argument to bed immediately. Rumours of new Aspect warriors were always doubtful.
I think, despite not being a big fan, Tau had a failry good release.
I like the fact they are updating for 6th at this pace as well because it keeps the haters from moaning about outdated codex.
Some people are never content though.
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Post by: Nevelon
AduroT wrote:What all did Eldar end up with new? Flier kit, plastic Wraithguard and that Wraith Knight? Anything else?
Some characters.
As a painter/modeler, I like the old way. You get all the new stuff in one lump, so if you want to swap bits it's easy, and everything has the same look.
From a gamer perspective, I like the new rapid-fire codex release. The 6th edition ones seem to have better balance, and will make the game a lot more fun when everyone has a modern codex. Having people trying to play the new game with an old book is not fun.
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Post by: agnosto
Faster release schedule means the releases are not as comprehensive; it does allow GW to come back later and update some of those older model lines.
I also think they're avoiding leaving any units unrepresented in the releases because of the 3rd party companies out there filling in the gaps. GW doesn't like that (evidenced by the countless C&Ds and the Chapterhouse Lawsuit).
So overall I understand why they're doing it, based on the two points above, but I do have to say they could have done something better than just give each army a flier and a monstrous creature, update a metal line to plastic, toss in a couple of finecast characters ; wash, rinse, repeat. So I agree it has become bland.
I think we might see some splash releases later with add-on books (like the new eldar one); I wouldn't be surprised to see a Kroot add-on for example.
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Post by: BunkerBob
Nevelon wrote: AduroT wrote:What all did Eldar end up with new? Flier kit, plastic Wraithguard and that Wraith Knight? Anything else?
Some characters.
As a painter/modeler, I like the old way. You get all the new stuff in one lump, so if you want to swap bits it's easy, and everything has the same look.
From a gamer perspective, I like the new rapid-fire codex release. The 6th edition ones seem to have better balance, and will make the game a lot more fun when everyone has a modern codex. Having people trying to play the new game with an old book is not fun.
I think the Ork dex and guard dex are doing just fine! Of course I would like to see more kit options made for artillery and update some seriously fugly models in the Ork range. Maybe modernize the Guard infantry range by bringing tallarn, mordian, and steel legion up to snuff and offering them in plastic would be a superb idea really and no soft versions of the commissars either. Though I love my limited edition female commissar just fine!
Don't get me started on my pewter Sisters. My army bag weighs about 25 pounds and that is only with 1 pewter exorcist tank on top of it all!
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Post by: SoloFalcon1138
funny, because a year ago everyone was whining that GW was updating the armies too slowly.
Can't please everyone all the time, I guess.
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Post by: AesSedai
Bland...perhaps. The release pattern is formulaic, but I greatly prefer it to the old, eon-spanning style. I don't think we have seen the plan in its entirety yet. Give it a year or two and see how they handle it then.
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Post by: orkybenji
I think it's much better. The 6th edition books have been fairly well balanced, and at this rate we might have the most balanced 40k ever. Having the releases every 3-4 months makes for great droughts and glaring imbalances in the game.
I don't think we will see many releases like the DE again. The Dark Eldar had a woefully dreadful range and were unpopular. Most the ranges now, other than sisters, have a good core group of models.
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Post by: Mathieu Raymond
They might be lackluster for the moment, but you can't argue that having an ever increasing number of books fit with the current edition is a boon.
Who knows, as has been stated earlier, maybe later, once most books (except for Sisters, of course) have been updated, they'll do a few releases like a "Summer of Aspects Warriors." Or a "Fall of Guard regiments."
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Post by: curran12
I have a feeling that GW could include a free puppy and handjob with a new codex release and people would find some way to whine about that as well.
Not excusing GW's mistakes, mind you, but seriously, it is a seamless shift from "why does GW update so slowwww!" to "these quick regular updates are too predictableeee!"
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Post by: Kroothawk
For years, GW only released 4 plastic kits per month. Now they release up to 4 plastic kits per month, massive increase indeed! Hope they can hold that pace
That said, I agree that almost all new releases are quite bland, unimaginative, predictable with lots of copy paste from existing kits.
The current company atmosphere is not supporting creativity and doesn't have feedback loops preventing the worst. Computers make actual copy-pasting easy (e.g. Blood Crushers and Slaanesh horses in different kits, Storm/Dark Talon, Stretch Land Speeder, SunShark/Piranha etc.).
In 40k you get one dual flyer, one large walker, one metal to plastic conversion with a dual unit pressed in plus maybe one new unit.
The walker is mostly a blown up smaller walker, the plastic Eldar character a near copy of an existing metal/Finecast model. All new unit concepts are done in less than 5 seconds ("Wraithknight").
The company is led by managers listening to lawyers, both telling designers how creativity has to work. Administration staff fires creative, production and sales staff to hire more administration staff (and waste millions on "proving" in court that GW invented halberds, shoulder pads and fur, not wasting any money on fads like advertising, giving money to shareholders like Tom Kirby instead of investing it).
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Post by: FenWulf29
Kroothawk wrote:
That said, I agree that almost all new releases are quite bland, unimaginative, predictable with lots of copy paste from existing kits.
The current company atmosphere is not supporting creativity and doesn't have feedback loops preventing the worst. Computers make actual copy-pasting easy (e.g. Blood Crushers and Slaanesh horses in different kits, Storm/Dark Talon, Stretch Land Speeder, SunShark/Piranha etc.).
In 40k you get one dual flyer, one large walker, one metal to plastic conversion with a dual unit pressed in plus maybe one new unit.
The walker is mostly a blown up smaller walker, the plastic Eldar character a near copy of an existing metal/Finecast model. All new unit concepts are done in less than 5 seconds ("Wraithknight").
This is what i mean, i like the pace they are realeasing things at, but i just found the eldar relases a bit on the bland side, especially when the tau riptide had been released over a month ago, and the eldar get a big walker thing (although the riptide is much cooler than the upgraded wraithlord)
Oh and they also admitted that they only did one concept art sketch for the wraithknight, showing they literally copy and pasting previous ideas
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Post by: Alpharius
Formulaic doesn't necessarily mean bland.
For example, while predictable, I think most, if not all, of the new Eldar stuff is pretty nice looking...
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Post by: Howard A Treesong
It did rather seen that they wanted a monstrous creature slot to be filled and large based plastic model to match following the big Tau Riptide. That they didn't do a lot of concept art doesn't surprise me. What's the next 40k army coming? Who wants to bet they'll crowbar a MC into that too?
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Post by: Baronyu
curran12 wrote:I have a feeling that GW could include a free puppy and handjob with a new codex release and people would find some way to whine about that as well.
Not excusing GW's mistakes, mind you, but seriously, it is a seamless shift from "why does GW update so slowwww!" to "these quick regular updates are too predictableeee!"
Why would I want a puppy to gimme a handjob? And shouldn't that be pawjob? You're sick!
Well, I think the complaints are valid, especially considering that Elder will have to wait for the next cycle to get more update, wishing for new mould for their base troops, more interesting units than just anime robots, or flyers that aren't sanded down DE flyers, etc really isn't that unreasonable. Also, it isn't crazy to expect faster and interesting updates.
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Post by: Gorlack
Kroothawk wrote:
In 40k you get one dual flyer, one large walker, one metal to plastic conversion with a dual unit pressed in plus maybe one new unit.
The walker is mostly a blown up smaller walker, the plastic Eldar character a near copy of an existing metal/Finecast model. All new unit concepts are done in less than 5 seconds ("Wraithknight").
But is this a bad thing? You make it out to be bad, but let's review it one more time:
- dual flyers: armies that doesn't already have flyers get flyers. As a Tau player I was very excited that we finally got some, and I imagine Eldar players would have been quite annoyed if they didn't get one.
- One metal to plastic conversion kit: Again, is this a bad thing? I know I loved the new Broadside models and I know a lot of people have been clamoring for a new Wraithguard plastic kit for years.
- Plastic character: I will give you that the Eldar plastic char. is weird. It's almost a direct copy of the old model... But for both Chaos and Tau the plastic model was amazing! So in general I would say plastic characters is also a good thing.
- One large walker (mostly a blown up smaller walker): Besides this release, when was the new walker model a "blown up smaller walker"? The Maulerfiend sure is new, and the Riptide - while a "suit" - doesn't look anything like its smaller brethren. So I really think the criticism about walkers is contained to this release, and not an overall problem.
One thing I do agree with is that there is very little new stuff in these releases. CC wraithguard, larger Crisis Suits and "better bikers" aren't really that original. Most of the originality seems to go towards the flyers and the centerpiece model - and that is a shame I think. I know that as a Tau player I was disappointed by the lack of new stuff in the release.
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Post by: weeble1000
curran12 wrote:I have a feeling that GW could include a free puppy and handjob with a new codex release and people would find some way to whine about that as well.
Not excusing GW's mistakes, mind you, but seriously, it is a seamless shift from "why does GW update so slowwww!" to "these quick regular updates are too predictableeee!"
Well, animals make terrible gifts, and in some states, the giving away of animals as prizes is illegal. And Has GW ever heard of sexual harassment?!? And of course offering only handjobs is sexist and discriminatory. Also, going by GW's stated target market, it would be grossly illegal.
Now, all hyperbole aside, the reasons GW does not offer free puppies and handjobs are largely similar to the reasons why GW should NOT do things like restrict product to indy retailers, file abusive legal claims that have no merit, demand that retailers do not sell online, etc. etc. etc. Such actions are as obviously wrong, illegal, illogical, and impractical as giving away free puppies and handjobs.
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Post by: SoloFalcon1138
curran12 wrote:I have a feeling that GW could include a free puppy and handjob with a new codex release and people would find some way to whine about that as well.
Not excusing GW's mistakes, mind you, but seriously, it is a seamless shift from "why does GW update so slowwww!" to "these quick regular updates are too predictableeee!"
Exactly. I played Dark Angels when they were hopelessly out of date, now they are one of the new books. I couldn't wait to see the update and I was pleased when I did.
But it seems like the needless whining will continue, whether too fast or too slow. The internet Goldilocks syndrome...
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Post by: spaceelf
I assume that you are being sarcastic. There are some 'current' Eldar units that date back to 2nd ed.
On a different note, I would not call the release bland. However, it is a small release, and the Eldar need lots of stuff. Plastic aspect warriors are needed to keep the cost of starting an army within reason. (Although with what GW is charging for the old Dire Avengers plastics, it seems that there is no hope.) I would have also liked to see kits for existing units such as exodites, rather than making up entirely new stuff. Eldar players have been waiting for exodites for nearly 20 years. They would have also fit in well with GWs push for big kits.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Quite correct, but it does make it lazy. I like the Wraithknight, so much so that I'm going to get one (and I don't really "play" Eldar, despite having about 4k points of them). It's still one of the laziest things to come out of GW in a while. Lazy concept, lazy name, lazy design, all made to fill the "big oval base release" tick-box on the new release checklist. Marines are next, so get ready for Dread Knight 2: The Dread-en-ing!
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Post by: Just Dave
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Quite correct, but it does make it lazy.
I like the Wraithknight, so much so that I'm going to get one (and I don't really "play" Eldar, despite having about 4k points of them). It's still one of the laziest things to come out of GW in a while. Lazy concept, lazy name, lazy design, all made to fill the "big oval base release" tick-box on the new release checklist.
You're almost certainly the most well known GW critic on Dakka and are even now criticising the model, but you're still going to buy it?
It's your money, and different strokes for different folks, but, personally, that strikes me as odd...
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Post by: Azreal13
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Quite correct, but it does make it lazy.
I like the Wraithknight, so much so that I'm going to get one (and I don't really "play" Eldar, despite having about 4k points of them). It's still one of the laziest things to come out of GW in a while. Lazy concept, lazy name, lazy design, all made to fill the "big oval base release" tick-box on the new release checklist.
Marines are next, so get ready for Dread Knight 2: The Dread-en-ing!
Wasn't the rumour not for a big oval base but a halfway between terminator and dreadnought? A dread lite if you will?
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Just Dave wrote:It's your money, and different strokes for different folks, but, personally, that strikes me as odd...
What's odd about wanting to buy something I like? As I said, I like the Wraithknight. I think it's huge, impressive, has cool looking weapons and can be done in a lot of poses. It's still a lazy concept, design and name, and I'm sure that with a little less cut'n'paste and a little more effort they could've made a big-base release for the Eldar that didn't look like something they whipped up in a a 20 minute meeting. Doesn't make me like the model it any less.
azreal13 wrote:Wasn't the rumour not for a big oval base but a halfway between terminator and dreadnought? A dread lite if you will?
So... a KnightLite?
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Post by: cincydooley
azreal13 wrote:
Wasn't the rumour not for a big oval base but a halfway between terminator and dreadnought? A dread lite if you will?
Gah. I hope that isn't true. I mean, I loooooove me some marines, but a tweener between those two just doesn't make sense.
I also hope they don't do any kind of monstrous creature BS. There's literally no precedent for it in any of marine fluff out there. I mean, I know there wasn't for the baby carrier either, but ick.
My hope for a new marine release, honestly, would be a plastic stern guard/vanguard kit, a plastic librarian kit, a plastic chappy kit ( for these two, I'm thinking a PA & TA combined kit like they do mounted/unmounted in fantasy), and I dunno what else. Can anyone think of anything from any BL stuff that would even make sense.
My biggest hope, however, is that the Wraithknight (which I really like) is the precursor for plastic Knight Titans.
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Post by: Just Dave
H.B.M.C. wrote:What's odd about wanting to buy something I like? As I said, I like the Wraithknight. I think it's huge, impressive, has cool looking weapons and can be done in a lot of poses. It's still a lazy concept, design and name, and I'm sure that with a little less cut'n'paste and a little more effort they could've made a big-base release for the Eldar that didn't look like something they whipped up in a a 20 minute meeting. Doesn't make me like the model it any less.
Buying a model you like isn't odd.
As I said, being so critical of the company and model, yet still purchasing from them is what strikes me as odd. Maybe that's just me...
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Just Dave wrote:As I said, being so critical of the company and model, yet still purchasing from them is what strikes me as odd. Maybe that's just me...
You're edging ever-so-dangerously close to the "If you don't like GW then stop playing 40K" line of illogical thinking.
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Post by: puma713
H.B.M.C. wrote: Just Dave wrote:As I said, being so critical of the company and model, yet still purchasing from them is what strikes me as odd. Maybe that's just me...
You're edging ever-so-dangerously close to the "If you don't like GW then stop playing 40K" line of illogical thinking.
No, he's trying to point out that, by purchasing the model, you're making a statement with your wallet that you're perfectly okay with "Lazy concept, lazy name, lazy design, all made to fill the "big oval base release" tick-box" and there is no reason for them to abandon said pattern. In fact, your purchase reinforces it.
It has nothing to do with not playing 40K, but not supporting decisions you don't support by buying into them.
Sort of like buying blood diamonds. No one said "Don't buy diamonds." Just that if you buy diamonds from blood-diamond merchants, then you're supporting what they're doing.
On-topic: While it remains to be seen what part of the plan the heightened release schedule is, I, for one, would love the old schedule back. It gave me time to really study a codex, break it down and enjoy it. I could play test it, decide if it was for me or not and then really understand every bit of the army. Now, as soon as I get a chance to really break down a codex, it seems that the next one is already on its way out.
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Post by: Just Dave
H.B.M.C. wrote: Just Dave wrote:As I said, being so critical of the company and model, yet still purchasing from them is what strikes me as odd. Maybe that's just me...
You're edging ever-so-dangerously close to the "If you don't like GW then stop playing 40K" line of illogical thinking.
You can call it what you like, but that's not my position nor my viewpoint: I was just pointing out the apparently contradictary stances.
On a wider scale (and combined with the Eldar reception) it suggests to me that GW's practices and "bland" releases continue to work...
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
I never called it bland.
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Post by: Blitza da warboy
I'd rather they update the older armies first and then go back to slower, more dynamic releases. Of course a splash wave or two never really hurt
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Why would you want releases to be slower?
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Post by: Just Dave
H.B.M.C. wrote:I never called it bland.
I was referring to the thread title.
H.B.M.C. wrote:Why would you want releases to be slower?
Slower releases appears to equate to more in-depth releases; with greater changes and more stuff: what I suspect he meant by more "dynamic".
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Is there any proof that slower release = more dynamic or interesting releases?
Oval Base + New Flyer has been around before the 1-a-month army book style came in.
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Post by: Kroothawk
There is no 1month cycle, as you will find out in a month.
And
slow release = 4 plastic kits per month
fast release = 4 plastic kits per month
Don't get too excited when they release books that are completed for more than a year.
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Post by: Vryce
puma713 wrote: ...Now, as soon as I get a chance to really break down a codex, it seems that the next one is already on its way out.
And...? You make it sound as if you have to buy an army for every single codex that gets released.
Seriously, for -years- now, this forum has kicked & screamed like a two year old that couldn't go to the fair about how slow the release schedule is & why we still have books that are two & three editions out of date & now that we have (or more to the point, will have) five codeci out for an edition that hasn't even been out a full year yet, people are pissing & moaning about bland releases or unimaginative new additions to an army (on this point I will concede a bit, tho I'm w/ H.M.B.C on this one, I find the Wraithknight to be a cool model, even if it has a rather bunk name).
Now, I'm not white-knighting for GW or whatever you want to call it, nor am I advocating for OR against the schedule or model/army quality, but the reality is this - it is a rather massive undertaking to print books, make new moulds for new models, package them, get them to retailers, etc. Do I wish some things for Chaos (my 'main' army) got updated? Sure - but I also wish I was Hugh Hefner and all the whining & throwing a fit in the world isn't going to make it so. I understand that this is a place for people to air their feelings & discuss topics like this, but lets be a bit reasonable.
For all the people bashing GW for their pendulum style approach to writing rules & balancing OP/UP models/units/armies, I almost see the same thing here w/ the quick massive shift from people complaining about a 'dex update every 4 - 6 mos to complaining that the 'dex's are coming to soon & now have 'bland, unimaginative' releases.
~Vryce
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Post by: -Loki-
Vryce wrote:For all the people bashing GW for their pendulum style approach to writing rules & balancing OP/UP models/units/armies, I almost see the same thing here w/ the quick massive shift from people complaining about a 'dex update every 4 - 6 mos to complaining that the 'dex's are coming to soon & now have 'bland, unimaginative' releases.
~Vryce
This would be because Dakka is not a singular entity. It's thousands of people with their own opinion. When something changes, some people are going to be happy and some upset. You'll generally find the people happy about a change don't tend to post about how happy they are with a change, they just get on with having fun. People who do not like a change feel more inclined to go argue on the internet about it, because that's what the internet is for.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
I still think it's strange that people would complain about an accelerated Codex time table.
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Post by: DarkTraveler777
I don't mind the current release structure but I have been disappointed that core units that are long in the tooth haven't been updated. That includes Firewarriors for Tau, Chaos Marines/god-specific Marines for CSM, (and I don't count the Finecast upgrade kits as an improvement over their metal counter parts) and now Eldar. I really want to jump on board with the new Eldar release but I am put off by the old kits. Having built some Guardians for use with the Forge World Corsair conversion kit I was not impressed with the quality of that old kit--especially after having experienced the glory of the modular Dark Eldar kits. Those are a sight to behold and if GW would release updated modular kits like they did for the Dark Eldar throughout each new army's releases I'd be hard pressed not to buy at least an allies detachment for each new release that came out.
Regarding the pace of releases, the current model is making the game feel exciting since GW is getting to a lot of armies that needed bolstering which in turn is causing some diversity to pop up among the armies represented in my gaming group.
And who knows maybe Sisters of Battle will finally get some attention in 6th!
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Post by: Byte
SoloFalcon1138 wrote:funny, because a year ago everyone was whining that GW was updating the armies too slowly.
Can't please everyone all the time, I guess.
I'm thinking the same thing. Can't make everybody happy.
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Post by: Azreal13
SoloFalcon1138 wrote:funny, because a year ago everyone was whining that GW was updating the armies too slowly.
Can't please everyone all the time, I guess.
A year ago, we hadn't had a substantial new release for 40k since Necrons 6 months ago IIRC?
Besides, as Kroot has vainly been trying to point out, it's not an accelerated release schedule, they're roughly releasing the same number of items each month, with a codex/army book and a few ancillaries on top, they've hardly put their foot through the floor! I would speculate they're front loading the codex release to get them done, alongside new kits to foil the 3rd party producers, and will follow up with a block of second wave releases, rather than the old, more dispersed release schedule.
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Post by: JWhex
One of the things that makes the Eldar release less than inspiring is the very large numbers of ancient models that remain in the line up. The wraith knight is going to turn some people off just because of its enormous size. Likewise some people are not crazy about having fliers in the game.
So this means that two of the major releases, the knight and the flier are going to be hit or miss no matter what because of pre-existing preferences. I dont play eldar or tau, but I find the eldar knight to be rather odd looking but the tau riptide seemed fine to me. I even prefer the general aesthetic of the Eldar over the Tau by a wide margin but the proportions of the wraith knight just dont cut it for me.
Eldar players have been waiting a long time for a codex so that is also a factor that is going to raise expectations very high.
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Post by: puma713
Vryce wrote: puma713 wrote: ...Now, as soon as I get a chance to really break down a codex, it seems that the next one is already on its way out.
And...? You make it sound as if you have to buy an army for every single codex that gets released.
Seriously, for -years- now, this forum has kicked & screamed like a two year old that couldn't go to the fair about how slow the release schedule is & why we still have books that are two & three editions out of date & now that we have (or more to the point, will have) five codeci out for an edition that hasn't even been out a full year yet, people are pissing & moaning about bland releases or unimaginative new additions to an army (on this point I will concede a bit, tho I'm w/ H.M.B.C on this one, I find the Wraithknight to be a cool model, even if it has a rather bunk name).
Now, I'm not white-knighting for GW or whatever you want to call it, nor am I advocating for OR against the schedule or model/army quality, but the reality is this - it is a rather massive undertaking to print books, make new moulds for new models, package them, get them to retailers, etc. Do I wish some things for Chaos (my 'main' army) got updated? Sure - but I also wish I was Hugh Hefner and all the whining & throwing a fit in the world isn't going to make it so. I understand that this is a place for people to air their feelings & discuss topics like this, but lets be a bit reasonable.
For all the people bashing GW for their pendulum style approach to writing rules & balancing OP/UP models/units/armies, I almost see the same thing here w/ the quick massive shift from people complaining about a 'dex update every 4 - 6 mos to complaining that the 'dex's are coming to soon & now have 'bland, unimaginative' releases.
~Vryce
Umm. . and nothing. I was expressing my opinion about the issue. I prefer the slower release schedule because I enjoy breaking down the codices, not because I have to buy every army. What I enjoy has no bearing whatsoever on you or your opinion of the release schedule.
Jesus Christ, you'd have thought that I told you that you had to dislike the release schedule too. There are people that love it, people that hate it, just like anything else that GW or any company in the world does. Do I tell you how unreasonable it is that you don't care about the release schedule, or that you prefer a fast release schedule? No, because I'm more interested in what you're adding to the discussion than complaining about complaining, which is becoming more rampant on Dakka than posts about Matt Ward.
Forgive me if I am more interested in your actual opinion than telling you why your opinion has no merit.
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Post by: Blitza da warboy
Let me rephrase myself. Once enough codex's are updated, I would like them to release a higher quantity of sets that also are made of better quality. (looking at you, no extra bits heldrake.)
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Post by: FenWulf29
Ok sol i see that there are two clear sides of the arguement. I wouldn't really want to go back to the old pace of releases, but i think that GW needs to slow down a little as some of the releases are a bit unfished (DA codex) and they look a bit lazy (wraithknight). I also think that eldar needed a much larger update- personally i would of preferred more metal to plastic releases and less new units
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Post by: Sidstyler
H.B.M.C. wrote:Marines are next, so get ready for Dread Knight 2: The Dread-en-ing!
I like the sound of Dreadknight: Revengeance more. Sounds more grimdark. They'll probably call it the stormknight, though, because that's the Space Marine naming convention it seems. Storm this, thunder that.
Either that or it'll be like I've said before, we'll get an "Avatar of the Emperor" to literally fill the monstrous creature slot. Maybe some piece of wargear for a Captain that the Emperor can home in on and use his psychic might to create a giant physical manifestation of himself on the battlefield, in his current corpse-y form but maybe with that ghostly, glowing gold power armor he's known for, with a big flaming sword. They could wreathe his fleshless head in flames too, make him kinda like Ghost Rider, kids will like that I think.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Just Dave wrote:It's your money, and different strokes for different folks, but, personally, that strikes me as odd...
What's odd about wanting to buy something I like? As I said, I like the Wraithknight. I think it's huge, impressive, has cool looking weapons and can be done in a lot of poses. It's still a lazy concept, design and name, and I'm sure that with a little less cut'n'paste and a little more effort they could've made a big-base release for the Eldar that didn't look like something they whipped up in a a 20 minute meeting. Doesn't make me like the model it any less.
I think enough people have hassled you about this already, but as it's been said, there's nothing odd about buying something you like, but by buying the wraithknight you're telling GW that you're okay with lazy designs and that any extra effort they put into it would have been wasted time/money in the end because you were going to buy it anyway. That's what's odd about it, criticizing the model so harshly and then ending with "So that's why I'm buying three of them!"
Gorlack wrote:- dual flyers: armies that doesn't already have flyers get flyers. As a Tau player I was very excited that we finally got some, and I imagine Eldar players would have been quite annoyed if they didn't get one.
As a Tau player so was I, until I actually saw the thing. Then I got pissed off. Honestly I think I would have preferred GW didn't give Tau a new flyer at all if they weren't going to make the barracuda into plastic, or put more effort into the design of the new one, instead of slapping a bigger pair of wings and some stupid tail booms on a piranha and saying "Piranha get wings, piranha fly now, you buy."
Eldar players should consider themselves lucky in that regard, at least theirs actually kinda looks like a fighter, and was loosely-based on the DE razorwing which was actually a cool design, one of the few that GW have done. It shouldn't cost $65, but I'd feel a lot better buying that than the fething sun shark, which I still have yet to pick up and probably never will, as I honestly think I could do a better job sculpting my own flyer than buying GW's up-sized piranha. Maybe some day I'll actually make that attempt, too, but right now I have too many unassembled, unpainted models to get through.
As for the topic at hand, I don't mind the release schedule. I wanted faster codex updates and as far as that goes I'm getting what I want. I wish they weren't fething $50 hardcover books and that I had a cheaper paperback option, and I wish the rules themselves had more effort put into them than cheap copy/paste jobs with a few nerfs here and there to "balance" things that needed balancing one or two editions ago, but I want to see every army get updated (including Sisters). I don't find a lot of the models to be all that impressive, though. As far as the Eldar specifically, I think the models they're getting look good enough, but this release just seems awful damn small. Lots of units that needed to be redone in plastic didn't get redone, just the wraithguard. In one case they actually took a huge step backwards and cut one of the box contents in half but charged the same price for it, and I personally find that kind of bs simply inexcusable. It's both hilarious and sad that the number one complaint about GW is poor value for money, and they go and do crap like that, just blatantly bending you over and laughing about it. They need to be giving us more models for the money we're spending, not less. And these are old sculpts at that, pretty barren-looking sprues compared to some of the newer kits coming out.
The other releases though weren't all that impressive. Chaos could have used some kits redone, but we got the heldrake and the fiends instead, two really goofy-looking models with insane price tags to boot, and that release also heralded the $20 single plastic infantry characters, which isn't that reasonable in my opinion. Dark Angels were another lackluster update, with a goofy flyer and a hilarious-looking stretch speeder, with an even more hilarious price tag. The only thing I really liked for the DA release were the bikers. The terminators were okay but I didn't really like or hate them that much. Daemons sucked, they didn't really get anything that I liked the look of...just more of the same goofy-looking models that I've hated ever since CSM and Daemons got split all that time ago, and they started putting out really cartoony-looking sculpts for them. Tau were probably the best release of all of them, and I don't think I'm particularly biased in that either since it seems most people think the pathfinders and most of the other new models didn't look too bad, but the riptide and especially the sun shark are two ugly-looking models. The riptide could probably look a lot better with some very heavy conversion work, but I don't feel it's worth it to pay $85 for a base (not like the base the model sits on...you know what I mean). The flyer is just irredeemable in my opinion, there's really nothing I like about the design and the way the kit is laid out makes any serious modifications of the model too difficult to be worth it. It would take a lot more than a simple repositioning of the wings and removal of the ugly tail booms to "fix" that model. Eldar seem like a better release than Tau to me, because none of the new models are really all that offensive (though I've seen people get straight-up pissed off about the wraithknight, worse than I did when I saw the riptide, but personally I feel it fits Eldar more than the riptide fits Tau so I'm not too bothered by it), the worst thing about the Eldar release is just the lack of updated kits.
I know a lot of that is subjective, but personally I've seen more people saying the same things about these models than not. The models that I personally find ugly also seem to be some of the most hated models for other people as well, so I don't think it's unfair to assume these models are mostly unpopular.
DarkTraveler777 wrote:I really want to jump on board with the new Eldar release but I am put off by the old kits. Having built some Guardians for use with the Forge World Corsair conversion kit I was not impressed with the quality of that old kit--especially after having experienced the glory of the modular Dark Eldar kits. Those are a sight to behold and if GW would release updated modular kits like they did for the Dark Eldar throughout each new army's releases I'd be hard pressed not to buy at least an allies detachment for each new release that came out.
That's a good point, I feel. Some of these older kits are off-putting, either because of the quality of the sculpts, their prohibitive cost, the fact that they're only available in Finecast, or in some cases even all three. There are several 40k armies I wouldn't even consider collecting until certain kits got redone, and GW seems intent on avoiding that for as long as humanly possible. It's the main reason why I never gave WHF an honest shot...not only was I put off by the horrible 8th edition rules, but so much of the ranges were old and dated it wasn't even funny. I wanted to play Dark Elves in particular and while it might have been possible for me to build an army out of solely new kits, like the corsairs, cold one knights and hydras, the majority of the model range was old and ugly and I had no idea how competitive my army would have been in the end. Then again they did eventually put out a new manticore and a black dragon, which are both kits I hated the look of and was kinda put off by since I didn't want my general looking so stupid, but both of those new kits were ugly too, so I dunno...maybe they don't want to update old kits because they don't trust themselves to make the replacement any better? lol
I don't think I'd do WHF now anyway because the cost of a standard army is ridiculous, even compared to 40k, and you'll have a lot more infantry models to paint on top of that. Old, ugly infantry, which mainly act as wound markers in-game anyway and will inevitably get blown off the board in huge chunks by 8th edition's random and destructive magic phase. I just don't see the point in wasting my time painting all those models and getting them to rank up properly when they won't last on the table for more than a couple turns.
But anyway, Dark Eldar are a good example because they're an army I always liked the idea of, but could never bring myself to collect because of the infamously bad model range. I tried, too, I did buy a box of warriors once (it was dirt cheap) and thought I could convert the models to look good. I bought some Dire Avenger bits after playing with the kit for a while thinking I could just mix and match, then I kinda gave up on the idea when I realized I was mostly going to be using the Eldar models in whole and just gluing spikes to them in the end, without using any of the parts from the DE warrior box at all. But I had this image in my head of that Eldar aesthetic but with a more sinister look: spikes, segmented armor plates, all that stuff that was finally realized in the 2010 update with Jes Goodwin sculpts, and I kept hoping that we'd get a Games Day update one year with DE pics. It was really awesome when that finally happened, too. But then of course GW fethed it up and all but invalidated the army a mere two years after revamping them...guess they were happy with the number of kits they sold and went back to not caring.
I'd like to see that, but I have a feeling they're going to be the new Dark Eldar. I'm honestly starting to believe they may even be written out of the universe entirely, I mean if GW can't even see fit to put a .pdf of their codex up on the website and is perfectly happy with new players not being able to legally play the army, it doesn't really bode well for them at all. But Sisters are another army I like the idea of, that I personally think could be a popular army if they got good models.
azreal13 wrote:I would speculate they're front loading the codex release to get them done, alongside new kits to foil the 3rd party producers, and will follow up with a block of second wave releases, rather than the old, more dispersed release schedule.
That's what I'm thinking, too. We just haven't gotten to the point of seeing these "second wave" follow-up releases yet. I wonder how long it will be before that happens, though.
JWhex wrote:I dont play eldar or tau, but I find the eldar knight to be rather odd looking but the tau riptide seemed fine to me.
It's the opposite for me. Not only do I hate the model but the idea of the riptide at all just annoys me. I even hate how they wrote it into the fluff...I don't know if this is against forum rules or not but here's the stupid fluff blurb: "The Tau way of war stresses mobility over mass attacks and hit-and-run tactics over entrenched positions. A wise Commander is not daunted by foes that outnumber his own troops many times over, nor is he dismayed by the sheer size of the crude war machines their foes might deploy. Coordinated tactics, tight discipline and a well enacted battle plan can overcome such minor advantages. However, even Commander Puretide, the ultimate master of the balanced attack, freely admitted that the creation of a heavier class of battlesuits, with upgraded size and armour, would better enable cadres to withstand the prodigious firepower that was regularly directed at them."
So Puretide, who stressed that good tactics and a cunning plan could overcome any foe, was suddenly retconned into admitting that a big Gundam would be necessary to deal with being outnumbered and/or outgunned. So much for being the "master of the balanced attack". This is the kinda bs that stands as the perfect example of GW being lazy, they simply couldn't think of a good reason why Tau would field such a stupid unit, but they have to sell a big stupid robot kit, so they effectively rewrite history and have fething Puretide himself say "Well quite frankly I like Gundams and I think we need lots of them." Stupid. Of course this is nothing new as they've been doing it with ever new land raider or speeder variant, the new SM flyers, etc. Hell, is there even a good reason for having a size class between the Eldar wraithlord and the revenant? The wraithknight is just a couple inches shy of the revenant in height anyway, what could it do that the titan can't? "Oh, well, if it crouches just so it can almost hide completely behind a building, whereas the revenant would have bits sticking out!"
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Post by: Peregrine
Sidstyler wrote:This is the kinda bs that stands as the perfect example of GW being lazy, they simply couldn't think of a good reason why Tau would field such a stupid unit, but they have to sell a big stupid robot kit, so they effectively rewrite history and have fething Puretide himself say "Well quite frankly I like Gundams and I think we need lots of them." Stupid.
This.
It's even in direct contradiction to the fluff that the Tau don't use large walkers like the Imperium. They have crisis suits as heavy power armor (with the ability to fit into human-size buildings/cover/etc), and use tanks and aircraft for all the bigger stuff. I liked that the Tau were actually able to figure out that the human shape doesn't work well once it gets big enough that you can't fit into human-size spaces or interact with a human-scale world. But I guess Tigersharks are too big, and everyone already owns Hammerheads so we'd better nerf the tanks and replace them with a new super-battlesuit.
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Post by: Pacific
I have more of an issue with the way the company just seems content to just tread out the same old releases on an endless cycle, add a +0.1 prefix to the end, and call it a day. I think by themselves the new releases are fine - people like familiarity, and just an extra kit or 2 (especially when it is a big robot!) is no doubt enough for most, but for me the saddest component is the lack of innovation and any attempt to try and create something new, and especially when considering that GW is in the prime spot to be able to do so.
Take for example the new Tau codex, and the kind of rumours people were talking about; about the 'empire' races, of human auxiliaries (armed in cool Tau-style armour of course), of lots of different alien races that may have joined the empire and now be represented on the tabletop. Hell, there was even talk of Squats/demiurg plastics (a rumour that had its rumour-monger debunked, but you could see the enthusiasm for it!) But, when the product was released we ended up with a book that was pretty much an updated 'edition' of the previous book - the background is the same, the artwork more or less, the units all the same. A couple of rules were moved either way in a couple of places. Oh, it was a hardback (which is surely one of the biggest cases of 'the emperor's new clothes' that you could care to mention) - but the rest of it was all-too familiar.
So while I think there is nothing wrong with what GW is doing per-se, it's more a case of what they are not doing that I find troubling - of being that hot-bed of imagination, and of trying to move the industry forward with their games and miniature releases. It's perhaps because I remember the period in the mid-90's, of the company constantly making new games to suit all tastes, of boxed games, with wide ranges of miniatures to support them, and actually where GW hammered out the territory and advantage in the industry that they enjoy today. These days the most anyone seems to have to look forward to is a new codex or army book (which is going to be almost exactly the same as the one you previously bought) plus a new plastic kit or two.. and that in itself I think is tremendously sad. Of course the counter-argument is that the 'Golden Age' period was an accountants nightmare - but is it not possible to have a balance between the two?
They've certainly got the capital to be able to knock the opposition out of the ballpark, but instead there seems to be a singular lack of will to do anything other than shore-up previously defined boundaries, and continue to go in ever-decreasing circles with regards to new releases. I think it's extremely important to note the number of companies that are now springing up to fill that gaming, creative 'void' in GW's absence.
So.. I'll end this with 'lets have some more dynamism, something new, something adventurous.. and another 'Dreadfleet' (in terms of concept, if not in execution!)
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Post by: Kroothawk
H.B.M.C. wrote:I still think it's strange that people would complain about an accelerated Codex time table.
With just one Codex release last year, it was difficult NOT to accelerate. In December, Vetock admitted that 4 of his books were unreleased.
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Post by: Shandara
It's just a shame they didn't take the chance of redoing all the aspects in plastic. I mean they've had since roughly 2006, it's not like they had to design the Eldar stuff in the last few months (well except the Flyer/Wraithknight which are geared to the 6th edition Flyer/MC combo happy-meal).
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Post by: Goliath
JWhex wrote:One of the things that makes the Eldar release less than inspiring is the [b]very large [b/]numbers of ancient models that remain in the line up.
Which ones would those be? I mean, I can accept the jetbikes, Phoenix Lords, and possibly the Warp Spiders, but the rest of the range was either updated shortly before the last release, for it, or at some point afterwards.
Even with that said, the only models that glaringly stand out (for me) as "Why did you not update these?!" Is the jetbikes; the aspect warriors switching to plastic would be nice but, as we've seen, that usually comes with a price bump for the "honour" of getting a dual kit, and they're all currently really nice models (again, my opinion).
So unless your definition of ancient is "around 7 years old", then apart from the jetbikes, you've either not realised when models were released, or are exaggerating slightly.
Edit: cocked up formatting.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Goliath wrote:Which ones would those be? I mean, I can accept the jetbikes, Phoenix Lords, and possibly the Warp Spiders, but the rest of the range was either updated shortly before the last release, for it, or at some point afterwards.
Falcon is from 2nd Ed. The Vyper is from 2nd Ed and contains exactly 1 weapon option (ShuriCannon). Guardians are from 3rd Ed and haven't changed (though their platforms are now plastic, thankfully). Plus the Phoenix Lords, the Avatar, Warp Spiders, Jetbikes, Shining Spears and I guess you could argue the Wave Serpent, but that's the newest of that lot.
Plus you realise that your post basically boiled down to:
"Aside from all the really old things the person I'm replying to is obviously referring to, what else is there?" That's a bit like a defence attorney standing up in court and saying "Aside from all the overwhelming material and eye-witness evidence showing that my client committed these crimes, what has the prosecution really got to prove their claims?"
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Post by: Goliath
H.B.M.C. wrote: Goliath wrote:Which ones would those be? I mean, I can accept the jetbikes, Phoenix Lords, and possibly the Warp Spiders, but the rest of the range was either updated shortly before the last release, for it, or at some point afterwards.
Falcon is from 2nd Ed. The Vyper is from 2nd Ed and contains exactly 1 weapon option (ShuriCannon). Guardians are from 3rd Ed and haven't changed (though their platforms are now plastic, thankfully). Plus the Phoenix Lords, the Avatar, Warp Spiders, Jetbikes, Shining Spears and I guess you could argue the Wave Serpent, but that's the newest of that lot.
Plus you realise that your post basically boiled down to:
"Aside from all the really old things the person I'm replying to is obviously referring to, what else is there?" That's a bit like a defence attorney standing up in court and saying "Aside from all the overwhelming material and eye-witness evidence showing that my client committed these crimes, what has the prosecution really got to prove their claims?"
I was unaware that guardians were 3rd edition, I remembered seeing them in the release issue of WD so assumed they were an update. Does the falcon/wave serpent actually need an update? I'd say it's one of the nicer looking tanks.
And my post wasn't intended as "No, you're wrong about everything being old" but that some of the older models are nice enough that they don't need updating over the wraithguard. I know that a fair chunk of the range is quite old, but I'd argue that Guardians are definitely nice enough to not need updating (though plastic storm guardian upgrades would be nice), possibly the viper (though the point about the shuriCannon is pertinent). The Avatar is not a nice model, but I will say that I flat out forgot it (I may have repressed it over how little I like it)
I'd also argue that some of the Phoenix Lords wouldn't need updating (though if you do some, you kind of have to do the others), Maugan Ra, Baharroth and possibly Jain-Zar are (in my opinion) not that urgent, as they're still nice models.
I will admit that my original point was largely unnecessary though (I'm so used to people arguing that stuff like Dire Avengers and the other Aspect Warriors need updating that I assumed that was what he was referring to)
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Goliath wrote:I was unaware that guardians were 3rd edition, I remembered seeing them in the release issue of WD so assumed they were an update. Does the falcon/wave serpent actually need an update? I'd say it's one of the nicer looking tanks. The Serpent? No. Not really. The Falcon could do with a re-cut (rather than a redesign) to put in more weapon options. It's a plastic kit from a time when you basically got what you were given and if you wanted something more you had to convert it. The Vyper sits in this boat as well. I'd love the Vyper to be redone as a combined Vyper/Venom kit. That would be amazing. [EDIT]: I've since checked and the Vyper (and I presume the Falcon) does now come with a weapon sprue for alternate weapons. However this is the sprue straight from the Wave Serpent kit, designed long after the Vyper and Falcon entered production, so I can't speak to how elegant their compatibility is. As far as the Guardians go, they're ancient plastics from a time when GW plastics weren't all that sophisticated. They have two-piece legs for crying out loud, yet no posability. They're kinda sad. Goliath wrote:And my post wasn't intended as "No, you're wrong about everything being old" but that some of the older models are nice enough that they don't need updating over the wraithguard. I actually don't disagree with you here, but there were really four big items that need to be redone - Wraithguard, Jetbikes, Warp Spiders and the Avatar (easily one of the oldest models GW still makes). Sadly they're only doing one of them, which is especially galling when we've seen re-done Jetbikes, seen what the revamped DE Jetbikes looked like, and when we live in the world of endless big new monster kits but still have the tiny FineCost Avatar to deal with. As for the Warp Spiders? They were prime candidates to turn into a plastic hybrid kit with an all-new Aspect. But, sadly, we're stuck with models that haven't been new since 2nd Ed. Goliath wrote:I'd also argue that some of the Phoenix Lords wouldn't need updating (though if you do some, you kind of have to do the others), Maugan Ra, Baharroth and possibly Jain-Zar are (in my opinion) not that urgent, as they're still nice models. I've never been a fan of Jain-Zarr (too much 80's hair metal in her!), but you're right that the Phoenix Lords don't need updating. They're still outstanding Goodwin sculpts that have stood the test of time. However, they do suffer from the "2D" syndrome of metal models, in that everything exists on a flat plane due to the nature of spin-casting (Asurman and Baharroth are the most guilty of this, along with Eldrad), so we wonder what could be done if they were remade. Goliath wrote:I will admit that my original point was largely unnecessary though (I'm so used to people arguing that stuff like Dire Avengers and the other Aspect Warriors need updating that I assumed that was what he was referring to) Of course the weird thing is that the Aspect Warriors (aside from Warp Spiders) have been redone with virtually every Codex. Scorpions, Avengers, Banshees, Dragons and Dark Reapers all had three different sets of models in three editions (the original Jess Goodwin's from 2nd Ed, the terrible 3rd Ed remakes, and the wonderful return-to-form Goodwin "fixes" to the line in 4th Ed). There was no 5th Ed Eldar Codex, so that skipped a generation, and now with the 6th Ed Codex it's the first time the majority of the Aspects haven't been redone.
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Post by: Goliath
H.B.M.C. wrote:[EDIT]: I've since checked and the Vyper (and I presume the Falcon) does now come with a weapon sprue for alternate weapons. However this is the sprue straight from the Wave Serpent kit, designed long after the Vyper and Falcon entered production, so I can't speak to how elegant their compatibility is.
From what I can remember the weapon sprue wasn't done amazingly well, it was attachable but I couldn't think of any way to make it switchable (though I was 15 at the time) H.B.M.C. wrote:As far as the Guardians go, they're ancient plastics from a time when GW plastics weren't all that sophisticated. They have two-piece legs for crying out loud, yet no posability. They're kinda sad.
Oh, assembly wise they're not fun at all, but for final result they aren't too awful. They could still do with an update, it's just not too pressing. H.B.M.C. wrote: Goliath wrote:And my post wasn't intended as "No, you're wrong about everything being old" but that some of the older models are nice enough that they don't need updating over the wraithguard.
I actually don't disagree with you here, but there were really four big items that need to be redone - Wraithguard, Jetbikes, Warp Spiders and the Avatar (easily one of the oldest models GW still makes). Sadly they're only doing one of them, which is especially galling when we've seen re-done Jetbikes, seen what the revamped DE Jetbikes looked like, and when we live in the world of endless big new monster kits but still have the tiny FineCost Avatar to deal with. As for the Warp Spiders? They were prime candidates to turn into a plastic hybrid kit with an all-new Aspect. But, sadly, we're stuck with models that haven't been new since 2nd Ed.
See this is one of the things that confues me. Half of the people complaining about the Wraithlord were doing it on the basis of it not existing in previous fluff, but then other people are arguing that there should be new aspects made. It's a situation where no matter what GW do they are going to get complaints. H.B.M.C wrote: Goliath wrote:I'd also argue that some of the Phoenix Lords wouldn't need updating (though if you do some, you kind of have to do the others), Maugan Ra, Baharroth and possibly Jain-Zar are (in my opinion) not that urgent, as they're still nice models.
I've never been a fan of Jain-Zarr (too much 80's hair metal in her!), but you're right that the Phoenix Lords don't need updating. They're still outstanding Goodwin sculpts that have stood the test of time. However, they do suffer from the "2D" syndrome of metal models, in that everything exists on a flat plane due to the nature of spin-casting (Asurman and Baharroth are the most guilty of this, along with Eldrad), so we wonder what could be done if they were remade.
I'd add Karandras to the 2D Brigade H.B.M.C. wrote: Goliath wrote:I will admit that my original point was largely unnecessary though (I'm so used to people arguing that stuff like Dire Avengers and the other Aspect Warriors need updating that I assumed that was what he was referring to) Of course the weird thing is that the Aspect Warriors (aside from Warp Spiders) have been redone with virtually every Codex. Scorpions, Avengers, Banshees, Dragons and Dark Reapers all had three different sets of models in three editions (the original Jess Goodwin's from 2nd Ed, the terrible 3rd Ed remakes, and the wonderful return-to-form Goodwin "fixes" to the line in 4th Ed). There was no 5th Ed Eldar Codex, so that skipped a generation, and now with the 6th Ed Codex it's the first time the majority of the Aspects haven't been redone.
True, which is why (to my eyes at least) all the complaining about not getting new aspect warriors is kind of needy? I guess? I mean, it's basically moaning that the core of the range wasn't completely revamped for the third time in a row, whereas if they were updated to the detriment of a model for the Wraithknight or Flyer (I can't remember the name), the entire internet would explode in complaints similar to those regarding the Tervigon, and models not being released for new units. If you think back to a year or two ago people were incessantly complaining (rightly so) about awesome rules being released for units that didn't have models. We're now at the other end of the spectrum, where they're releasing models for the new units as soon as they're released, but people are now complaining that the old models weren't updated. I can understand the complaints about not getting old stuff updated, but you can't complain about new units getting models upon release when the entire internet and their aunt were complaining about it not happening for the past 3 years.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
In some ways you have to ask - why can't they do both? Releasing rules but no models was (obviously) a (huge) mistake. I don't think they'll ever get that wrong again (*glances at the Ork range and the gaps that have been there since 2nd Ed*). But why can't they also redo the Avatar (even if it has to be fething FineCost) as well? Surely they've gotten enough mileage out of the current one, and really doesn't someone there want to make a new big stonking Eldar rage Daemon?
As far as your comments about adding a new Aspect, adding things to the fluff is something we should be used to now. I've long since accepted that GW creates the models and then finds whatever size crowbar they need to force the concept into the fluff ( "Grey Knights have totally always had Dreadknights! Honest!"), plus their hybrid kit system is really good, and shows how far their plastic technology has come, so if the price to get a great new set of dynamic plastic Warp Spiders is that they put in a "Totally always there we just never told you about them" new type of Aspect, then I'm ok with that.
That and sometimes the Rule of Cool outweighs some of the stupider things they do. A lot of the new Tyranid units have shockingly terrible names (Pyrovore? Venomthrope? Tyrannofex? Was Cruddace even trying?), but their models are cool, especially the Tyrannofex, which I love. The same applies to the Wraithknight. It's a lazy design (just a bigger Wraithlord) that could've been so much more (like an actual Bright Stalion, which would have been very interesting and very different), and has a boring name, but it is a cool model nonetheless.
And sometimes they just get it soooooooo wrong.
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Post by: Eberious
Good lord guys, life is to short.
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Post by: Goliath
H.B.M.C. wrote:In some ways you have to ask - why can't they do both? Releasing rules but no models was (obviously) a (huge) mistake. I don't think they'll ever get that wrong again (*glances at the Ork range and the gaps that have been there since 2nd Ed*).
Good lord yes. I wants me some Flash Gitz (I'm hoping to run a little mercenary detachment of a couple of units of Flash Gitz with Kaptin Badrukk, with wave upon wave of Piratical Grot) H.B.M.C. wrote:That and sometimes the Rule of Cool outweighs some of the stupider things they do. A lot of the new Tyranid units have shockingly terrible names (Pyrovore? Venomthrope? Tyrannofex? Was Cruddace even trying?), but their models are cool, especially the Tyrannofex, which I love. The same applies to the Wraithknight. It's a lazy design (just a bigger Wraithlord) that could've been so much more (like an actual Bright Stalion, which would have been very interesting and very different), and has a boring name, but it is a cool model nonetheless. And sometimes they just get it soooooooo wrong.  I quite liked the idea of a chariot pulled by a flying bird, I just think they really screwed up when someone at GW went "So, the eagle goes below the chariot, that way due to the tension on the harness the chariot will be pulled down! That means it flies right?" For a guy doing an engineering degree, that hurt.
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Post by: Shandara
If Flying means 'crashing into the ground' then yes.
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Post by: 31rls31
i see it as once all codexs are at 6th edition,that only leaves models to be updated after that.in my honest opinion updateing all the armies is a great idea,that way all players are at the same edition at games.
once they get the codexs done,we can all hope that this will give GW the time to make models for those charecters that have no model.
lack luster release i dont agree with,necrons and DE got hughe army revamps,but they were also some of the most bland armies pre their update,eldar release looks bland to me because well their eldar,clean and fine tuned race they are.
i for one cant wait till the ork codex redue,but biteing my nails at the same time.not for the model release although a mega nod plastic kit would be awsome(wishful thought),but more so how will they change their play style,like when they did nids,wow we can take nine carnifexs on the tabel,but alas their point cost wont really alow :(
those are my thoughts but hey there just thoughts.
thanks
31
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Post by: Maelstrom808
Give me dexes that are half-way balanced internally and externally so I don't have to feel like I am either playing with both hands tied behind my back (Necrons in most of 5th edition) or that I am clubbing baby seals (Necrons in early 6th edition).
Make sure that there is at least some sort of model for every unit so I don't have to do extensive conversions/scratchbuilds or buy a questionable version from a third party (Tyranids...still).
Make the army playstyle fit with it's fluff, with a few different competitive builds.
Accomplish that without forcing me to take out a second mortgage just to stay current, and I'm good. 6th edition has been doing most of that pretty well (with the exception of the second mortgage), and has been kicking out dexes at a furious pace. It sounds like it's supposed to slow down, which is fine as long as they pay attention to the dexes that really need it the most.
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Post by: Byte
I find the discussion very well thought out and interesting.
Question. Do guys think there is a abundance of never use units in the new books?
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Goliath wrote:Good lord yes. I wants me some Flash Gitz (I'm hoping to run a little mercenary detachment of a couple of units of Flash Gitz with Kaptin Badrukk, with wave upon wave of Piratical Grot)
The Orks are just one of those product lines that always seems to be missing something, or has hand-me-downs from the Gorkamorka days. I truly believe that one day they'll get all their missing units.
Goliath wrote:I quite liked the idea of a chariot pulled by a flying bird, I just think they really screwed up when someone at GW went "So, the eagle goes below the chariot, that way due to the tension on the harness the chariot will be pulled down! That means it flies right?"
For a guy doing an engineering degree, that hurt.
The High Elf Eagle Chariot is an interesting case as I saw a lot of people saying things like "If you can accept magic and giant robots why does this break your suspension of disbelief?". I think Kyoto said it best when he said (paraphrasing): "I know how a chariot works. I know how an eagle works. Combining like this would not work, and I can't see it any other way." Often it's not the big things that break our suspension of disbelief (giant ghost-controlled walkers, daemonically possessed cannons that fire tortures souls, etc.) but instead it's the little things that drive us nuts (where is the Chibi-Hawk's fuselage? Why is the Dreadknight's pilot just sorta hanging there? How in the hell would that Eagle Chariot actually work?).
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Post by: mattyrm
H.B.M.C. wrote:
The High Elf Eagle Chariot is an interesting case as I saw a lot of people saying things like "If you can accept magic and giant robots why does this break your suspension of disbelief?". I think Kyoto said it best when he said (paraphrasing): "I know how a chariot works. I know how an eagle works. Combining like this would not work, and I can't see it any other way." Often it's not the big things that break our suspension of disbelief (giant ghost-controlled walkers, daemonically possessed cannons that fire tortures souls, etc.) but instead it's the little things that drive us nuts (where is the Chibi-Hawk's fuselage? Why is the Dreadknight's pilot just sorta hanging there? How in the hell would that Eagle Chariot actually work?).
That was a really excellent post, I often get pissed off about little things, and that post probably best sums up my feelings about all kinds of things, because I too was annoyed with the flying eagle, but am more than happy tp see rainbow elves shred people with glitter guns.
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Post by: BryllCream
I don't see how the flying eagle is conceptually difficult. Imagine the carriage + rider are weightless and they're dragged along by the eagle, where the charector with his long spear can lance enemies. The eagle is flying at ground height so it would not be that different from a normal chariot.
That's not to say that it still doesn't look clunky and frankly a bit bizarre.
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Post by: agnosto
I started in the, "Once all the old books are updated..." camp and then I thought about it. It's not like the sculptors and writers are the same people. I now think it's more of a capacity issue; GW only has so much capacity to produce new plastic kits what with all the die cutting and other manufacturing nonsense that's involved. An accelerated release schedule means less time to ensure proper stock of big range changes so they pick and choose what's going to make the most short-term sales while the updated miniatures are left for later.
That said. I agree that the current releases are lazy to an extent. Why did Eldar need a giant robot kit when they have the Avatar just languishing..it's already a MC for cripe's sake and is almost smaller than a krootox which isn't.
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Post by: Goliath
H.B.M.C. wrote: Goliath wrote:Good lord yes. I wants me some Flash Gitz (I'm hoping to run a little mercenary detachment of a couple of units of Flash Gitz with Kaptin Badrukk, with wave upon wave of Piratical Grot)
The Orks are just one of those product lines that always seems to be missing something, or has hand-me-downs from the Gorkamorka days. I truly believe that one day they'll get all their missing units. 
Hopefully. At the moment I'm having to resort to FW and Scratchbuilding to satisfy my urge for fun wheeled stuff, as they seem to be better value for money at the moment when compared to the frankly rather awful warbuggies.
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Post by: ExNoctemNacimur
spaceelf wrote:
I assume that you are being sarcastic. There are some 'current' Eldar units that date back to 2nd ed.
I wasn't. The entire line was pretty outdated. The current Eldar, on the other hand, aren't nearly so bad. Yeah, there's still 2nd edition units, but they've received updates since. The Dark Eldar? Not so much.
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Post by: Goliath
BryllCream wrote:I don't see how the flying eagle is conceptually difficult. Imagine the carriage + rider are weightless and they're dragged along by the eagle, where the charector with his long spear can lance enemies. The eagle is flying at ground height so it would not be that different from a normal chariot.
That's not to say that it still doesn't look clunky and frankly a bit bizarre.
Wood isn't bouyant in air. That makes it a "difficult" concept as it currently is. It could be fixed by just switching which of the eagle and chariot was higher, as that way the eagle would actually be supplying the upwards force to keep the chariot flying.
As it is, the eagle moves forwards, and the harness converts part of that into horizontal force, and part of it into vertical force, except this vertical force is downwards due to the angle of the connecting rope.
So yeah, the eagle might be flying around at ground height, but the moment immediately after the model (if it were real), the downwards force would propel the chariot into the floor.
Either that or it would start oscillating up and down behind the eagle, as the angle changes and the vertical component flips between positive and negative, which would be both bad for the crewmembers, and could well yank the eagle out of the air at the bottom of the downswing.
I have spent far too long doing mechanics revision today.
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Post by: Flippa
What if 2 Eagles gripped it by some strands of creeper?
Especially if they were from Araby and they held it under the dorsal guiding feathers.
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Post by: FenWulf29
ExNoctemNacimur wrote: spaceelf wrote:
I assume that you are being sarcastic. There are some 'current' Eldar units that date back to 2nd ed.
I wasn't. The entire line was pretty outdated. The current Eldar, on the other hand, aren't nearly so bad. Yeah, there's still 2nd edition units, but they've received updates since. The Dark Eldar? Not so much.
They may be nice models, but they are all finecast, therefore this puts many people - including me- right off. Dont misread this thinking that every unit should have a plastic release, but seriously? One out of the six types of aspect warriors in plastic, there should at least be a 50:50 split on plastic and finecast to make the army anywhere near pratical
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Post by: Kroothawk
Personally I think the Rogue Trader Warlocks look better than the new Spiritseer (look at the missing folds of the cloth).
I also like the current Aspect Warriors.
The jetbike needs to be updated though, esp. since the prototype is now also 6 years old.
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Post by: MajorStoffer
Flippa wrote:What if 2 Eagles gripped it by some strands of creeper?
Especially if they were from Araby and they held it under the dorsal guiding feathers. 
everyone knows Araby giant eagles are non-migratory. You'd never find them far enough north for the Elves.
To be somewhat on-topic, what I'm finding bland is not so much the models, but the predictability of each release. Oval base, flier, one unit getting updated, one plastic monopose character, some finecast monopose characters.
Frankly, I don't like the creep in big units, I prefer 40k to be about infantry, tanks, with the big units reserved to being rare or in Apoc. I know fantasy went this route as a kind of affordability thing; you get a lot more points out of the big things, and have to spend less on hordes of dudes to get effective units, but 40k doesn't have the same problem...unless you're guard, orks or nids, but we know that going into those armies. And since 40k is still primarily about the footsloggers and general use vehicles (no matter what giant monster they come out with, there'll always be lots of "normal" units, especially since 6th is so objective heavy) I get frustrated when those units you're going to use and see are often old, unattractive or finecrap.
What do I want most for my guard? Veterans and re-done plastic infantry. For my marines? Plastic, modular Stern/Vanguard and updated Tactical Marines. Those are the things I'm going to use and field the most, and are probably some of the worst looking things in their respective lines, or have other problems (super-customizable wargear for Stern/Vanguard, monopose resin kits...) Giant monsters, kind of go against the grain of 40k for me; the new units are nice and all, but I'd like to see GW apply more of their obvious talents with plastic to stuff from the 90s when they didn't have anywhere near as much talent.
Ignoring what needs to be updated in favour of stuff which wasn't wholly necessary or goes against the grain of 40k is bland and boring, and ultimately, disappointing to me. The codexes themselves are great; balanced, flexible, creative (Chaos was a bit of a letdown, helturkey reliance and all, no Legions, but still flexible and fun), but there's a lot of missed marks in models for me.
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Post by: conker249
I'm loving the faster paced updates, I just want Sisters updated.
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Post by: JWhex
Regardless of the pace, I am finding myself more dissatisfied than ever with the fantasy army books and 40k core rules. The fantasy demon book has terrible internal balance where you are shoehorned into playing nurgle and there is just no point in playing tzeentch.
I really think the wraithknight and riptide are models that are too large for 40k. The 40k core rules I find to be awkward and clumsy and this is the first time I think an updated 40k rule set is less desirable than the previous set.
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Post by: FenWulf29
JWhex wrote:Regardless of the pace, I am finding myself more dissatisfied than ever with the fantasy army books and 40k core rules. The fantasy demon book has terrible internal balance where you are shoehorned into playing nurgle and there is just no point in playing tzeentch.
I really think the wraithknight and riptide are models that are too large for 40k. The 40k core rules I find to be awkward and clumsy and this is the first time I think an updated 40k rule set is less desirable than the previous set.
I can definately see your point, the flyer bases are very awkward in a game of 40k. As well as that 40k isnt about the large gribbly monsters that want to eat you (or do worse) its more about the squads and leaders.
However i do disagree about the codexes. On the whole they have been very balanced, and this will hopefully lead to a wider range of armies being played. I know that the daemon codex was the worst out of the 6ed stuff, due to the randomness of it and the fact that your can potentially worsen your troops. As well as that dark angels codex was a bit messy (it had a large errata which was released three days after the codex) but still it is well bablanced and generally liked. I havent had any experience with the fantasy daemon book though
conker249 wrote:I'm loving the faster paced updates, I just want Sisters updated.
Well someones going to bit waiting a long time.
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Post by: Icarusthepilot
Just because they are putting out more stuff than before doesn't mean you have to buy it. I like having more choices, and to be honest, I thought the new Tau stuff was pretty cool.
I will admit, however, that I am really disappointed that White Dwarf feels more like a monthly catalogue anymore.
I understand where you are coming from though. Look at what happened to Madden or Call of Duty. It feels like the same game every year with different guns and maps.
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Post by: conker249
FenWulf29 wrote:JWhex wrote:Regardless of the pace, I am finding myself more dissatisfied than ever with the fantasy army books and 40k core rules. The fantasy demon book has terrible internal balance where you are shoehorned into playing nurgle and there is just no point in playing tzeentch.
I really think the wraithknight and riptide are models that are too large for 40k. The 40k core rules I find to be awkward and clumsy and this is the first time I think an updated 40k rule set is less desirable than the previous set.
I can definately see your point, the flyer bases are very awkward in a game of 40k. As well as that 40k isnt about the large gribbly monsters that want to eat you (or do worse) its more about the squads and leaders.
However i do disagree about the codexes. On the whole they have been very balanced, and this will hopefully lead to a wider range of armies being played. I know that the daemon codex was the worst out of the 6ed stuff, due to the randomness of it and the fact that your can potentially worsen your troops. As well as that dark angels codex was a bit messy (it had a large errata which was released three days after the codex) but still it is well bablanced and generally liked. I havent had any experience with the fantasy daemon book though
conker249 wrote:I'm loving the faster paced updates, I just want Sisters updated.
Well someones going to bit waiting a long time.
not too worried over that.
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Post by: Tappers
BryllCream wrote:I don't see how the flying eagle is conceptually difficult. Imagine the carriage + rider are weightless and they're dragged along by the eagle, where the charector with his long spear can lance enemies. The eagle is flying at ground height so it would not be that different from a normal chariot.
That's not to say that it still doesn't look clunky and frankly a bit bizarre.
That's where it gets difficult to understand.
If Orks are next, I hope they do a giant Squiggoth like in Dawn Of War. That would be nice...
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Post by: FenWulf29
[quote=Tappers 529359 5669495 423253ca67c3a1ae115af9934ce0c384.png
If Orks are next, I hope they do a giant Squiggoth like in Dawn Of War. That would be nice...
And that might actually the big gribbly they release for the Orks! Ha ha!
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Post by: Azreal13
Like this?
Or is there a bigger one I'm not aware of?
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Post by: FenWulf29
Yeah this one is the one - but do you know what an orkeasaurus is? I saw an epic version of this and looked even bigger than the epic squiggoth.
Also fluff wise - why isnt a squiggoth red?
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Post by: Zweischneid
Kroothawk wrote:Personally I think the Rogue Trader Warlocks look better than the new Spiritseer (look at the missing folds of the cloth).
I'd really love to see the new Surfin' Spiritseer on something like this. He's got the perfect pose for it
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Post by: jonolikespie
FenWulf29 wrote:Yeah this one is the one - but do you know what an orkeasaurus is? I saw an epic version of this and looked even bigger than the epic squiggoth.
Also fluff wise - why isnt a squiggoth red?
I think it is technically more closely related to an ork than a squig.
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Post by: Ehsteve
I don't think 'bland' is the correct descriptor in this circumstance.
'Formulaic' is a far better way to look at it. When you have someone new to any GW product or wargames in general it will hardly be bland, but when viewed over a longer period it does become the same rinse-repeat cycle.
With Eldar you have bright colours and bold differences in design between the aspects, but those lines are starting to blur with the new aesthetic which rather than tying everything into a theme just blurs them together into a mess of books, swords, skull, spirit stones or other rather meaningless simplification of their heritage. This is why I am not a massive fan of dual-aspect plastic kits, because the saturation of these over-simplified symbols will lead them into the same territory as Grey Knights ("oh look, another book with a sword, and this book has skulls in it!") and blend the two relevant aspect types rather than accentuate them as individual items.
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Post by: Goliath
That's the largest available at the moment, for the low low price of £230.
If they release a plastic one I will be both very happy and very annoyed. Happy because I get to use a gargantuan Squiggoth in my army, annoyed because I've spent all of my free time over the past two weeks making a mechanical one out of plasticard. Automatically Appended Next Post: FenWulf29 wrote:Yeah this one is the one - but do you know what an orkeasaurus is? I saw an epic version of this and looked even bigger than the epic squiggoth.
Also fluff wise - why isnt a squiggoth red?
The question there is more "Why aren't Squigs green?" All the beasts in an ork army are "Orkoid" meaning they're fungal, and generally large, green and angry. The Squig is an exception, as its still angry, but it's small and red instead.
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Post by: Nafarious
I don't get all the hate to keeping things similar. Like look at an actual army. All of the tanks look similar, same design pattern, all the planes look similar. Some boats are bigger than others but they still look the same.
Now the idea of adding more troops would have been nice. But FFS people you can't get everything. There is not a single problem with the new tau riptide. Or the wraith knight. That seems to be pretty much the lore of the armies. Nothing needed to change, they didn't need to introduce some new giant ethereal to lead the tau.
Also for the fliers. Dark eldar is just a split faction of eldar (or the other way around or something). So why wouldn't they have similar flier technology. Like honestly why complain about this stuff, I would rather have a new book that makes the game playable than fancy new models.
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Post by: frozenwastes
The thing that makes them bland to me is not that they look the same as other things, but that they amped up the cartoony big time over the last couple of years. GW has always had a cartoony/childish aesthetic, but lately it's been even more exaggerated.
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Post by: -Loki-
FenWulf29 wrote:I can definately see your point, the flyer bases are very awkward in a game of 40k. As well as that 40k isnt about the large gribbly monsters that want to eat you (or do worse) its more about the squads and leaders.
Unless it's Tyranids, which is all about gribbly monsters that want to eat you (literally).
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Post by: Agent_Tremolo
I don't necessarily agree that with GW older equals better. Pre-6th edition codices were plagued with internal balance issues and entries missing miniatures. Try telling Tyranid or Space Wolf players, who had to wait years for, say, their Thunderwolves and Tervigons that the way GW handled things in the past was better than the current policy.
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Post by: The Masked One
I am awaiting what there gonna do with Tyranids. I'm expecting a Tyrannogaunt and a Gormafex. Anyway the Riptide looks pretty cool, even though the head looks unproportionate as hell, and the Wraith Knight is just a big Wraithlord with a headswap and new weapons. I think that we probably never gonna get a SoB update considering they only have time to make 4 kits every month.
Icarusthepilot wrote:Just because they are putting out more stuff than before doesn't mean you have to buy it. I like having more choices, and to be honest, I thought the new Tau stuff was pretty cool.
I will admit, however, that I am really disappointed that White Dwarf feels more like a monthly catalogue anymore.
I understand where you are coming from though. Look at what happened to Madden or Call of Duty. It feels like the same game every year with different guns and maps.
Call of Madden is a brilliant idea.
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Post by: Fafnir
frozenwastes wrote:The thing that makes them bland to me is not that they look the same as other things, but that they amped up the cartoony big time over the last couple of years. GW has always had a cartoony/childish aesthetic, but lately it's been even more exaggerated.
I keep expecting each new big GW kit to come with kung-fu grip or karate-chop action.
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Post by: Sidstyler
Goliath wrote:That's the largest available at the moment, for the low low price of £230.
If they release a plastic one I will be both very happy and very annoyed. Happy because I get to use a gargantuan Squiggoth in my army, annoyed because I've spent all of my free time over the past two weeks making a mechanical one out of plasticard..
Don't worry, I can almost guarantee it won't see a release in plastic. After the valkyrie GW quit converting FW models into plastic kits, for...reasons.
I guess they figured that they were just stealing money from themselves. They assume people are so fanatical about their products that they'll buy them at any price, so with that in mind why would you offer an expensive FW kit in more affordable plastic when everyone who wants one is just going to buy it from FW at £230? That's not true at all obviously, only a small portion of the fanbase can really afford to shell out that kind of money for a model so it's either wait for plastic or nothing, but it has to be how they're looking at it because otherwise it makes no sense whatsoever not to make them, especially designs as old as the Tau barracuda or the CSM hell blade fighter which surely have made most of the money they're going to as boutique resin models at this point. I'd love a trio of barracudas but as much as I like the model, I simply can't justify spending $360 on them. It would be a lot easier however to justify buying three of them in plastic...it's still a huge chunk of money for three little plastic models, but there's a lot more perceived value for that kit because of the premium FW price and the quality of the design compared to gakky sun shark. I know I keep harping on about that model but seriously, what the feth? It's not even ugly in a good way like the A-10 warthog, it's just plain bad.
Everything is wrong with the riptide. It's an ugly model with "meh" rules and really stupid fluff. But I'll agree to disagree at this point.
Nafarious wrote:Nothing needed to change, they didn't need to introduce some new giant ethereal to lead the tau.
"Aun'va SMASH!"
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Agent_Tremolo wrote:I don't necessarily agree that with GW older equals better. Pre-6th edition codices were plagued with internal balance issues and entries missing miniatures. Try telling Tyranid or Space Wolf players, who had to wait years for, say, their Thunderwolves and Tervigons that the way GW handled things in the past was better than the current policy.
You appear to have missed the point of this thread entirely. This isn’t a black and white case of “old = better”, it’s about recent releases lacking imagination (ie. each release seems to centre around 1 oval base monster, 1 flyer, 1 plastic infantry hybrid kit, 1 plastic character, some scattered FineCost minis). Furthermore codices still have internal balance issues, it’s been this way since 2nd Ed, and that has nothing to do with ‘bland releases’. Finally we’re getting the reverse of the ‘missing model’ problem in that kits that need replacing (Jetbikes!) are languishing with ancient kits whilst they foist newer (and blander) big-base monsters and flyers on us.
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Post by: frozenwastes
Fafnir wrote:
I keep expecting each new big GW kit to come with kung-fu grip or karate-chop action.
Or maybe those spring loaded plastic missiles. Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyone ever see the Southpark episode with the shakeweights?
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Post by: Kettu
Goliath wrote:
The question there is more "Why aren't Squigs green?" All the beasts in an ork army are "Orkoid" meaning they're fungal, and generally large, green and angry. The Squig is an exception, as its still angry, but it's small and red instead.
Squigs were originally a Nid monster that used Orkoid DNA and when they meet the Orks, the Orks realised what they were and took them as pets.
RT fluff not withstanding, few Squigs are actually Red. there are many variants of them coming in all shapes and colours but only the Red ones and Hair-Squigs have so far gotten miniatures.
'What's a Hair-Squig?' Someone may ask, 'I've never seen it before.'
Orks don't grow hair.
Think about it...
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Post by: Dysartes
Kettu wrote: Goliath wrote:
The question there is more "Why aren't Squigs green?" All the beasts in an ork army are "Orkoid" meaning they're fungal, and generally large, green and angry. The Squig is an exception, as its still angry, but it's small and red instead.
Squigs were originally a Nid monster that used Orkoid DNA and when they meet the Orks, the Orks realised what they were and took them as pets.
RT fluff not withstanding, few Squigs are actually Red. there are many variants of them coming in all shapes and colours but only the Red ones and Hair-Squigs have so far gotten miniatures.
'What's a Hair-Squig?' Someone may ask, 'I've never seen it before.'
Orks don't grow hair.
Think about it...
I'm pretty sure the Oiler Squig has seen a model at some point, on one of the Grot weapon crews - second one in on this picture.
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Post by: Howard A Treesong
They used to package a small squig with many character figures years ago. There were about a dozen different micro-squigs that were put in packs randomly, I managed to get the set at GW HQ. They're at the bottom of this page - http://www.collecting-citadel-miniatures.com/wiki/index.php/Space_Orks_-_1991_Runtherdz,_Runts_%26_Squigs When I asked for them I had a few other little creatures packaged in as well that might not strictly have been 'squigs'.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Ah yes. Those Squigs.
First time I saw them was in the Rogue Trader Tyranid army list in WD 145.
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Post by: Howard A Treesong
Tyranids had Squig swarms and Zoats. And people say it wasn't better years ago?
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
That's not what people are saying.
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Post by: frozenwastes
H.B.M.C. wrote:Ah yes. Those Squigs.
First time I saw them was in the Rogue Trader Tyranid army list in WD 145.
My favorite one:
It's just so strange. I painted mine in ork tones, but with read pulsing veins. I wish I still had it, but I sold my orcs after being really disappointed with the departure of the game from a platoon skirmish to a quasi-company sized game.
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Post by: FenWulf29
Nafarious wrote:There is not a single problem with the new tau riptide. Or the wraith knight.
So it not a problem that GW are charging super heavy tank prices for and upsized wraithlord.
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Post by: Goliath
FenWulf29 wrote: Nafarious wrote:There is not a single problem with the new tau riptide. Or the wraith knight.
So it not a problem that GW are charging super heavy tank prices for and upsized wraithlord.
This is the part that I don't like.
I like the model.
I like the concept.
I like the background behind the model (Twins, similar to paired revenants, except one is dead)
I do not like the fact that I could buy a Baneblade, Stompa or Mega-Dread for exactly the same price.
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Post by: FenWulf29
Goliath wrote: FenWulf29 wrote: Nafarious wrote:There is not a single problem with the new tau riptide. Or the wraith knight.
So it not a problem that GW are charging super heavy tank prices for and upsized wraithlord.
This is the part that I don't like.
I like the model.
I like the concept.
I like the background behind the model (Twins, similar to paired revenants, except one is dead)
I do not like the fact that I could buy a Baneblade, Stompa or Mega-Dread for exactly the same price.
I agree here
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Post by: Azreal13
Goliath wrote: FenWulf29 wrote: Nafarious wrote:There is not a single problem with the new tau riptide. Or the wraith knight.
So it not a problem that GW are charging super heavy tank prices for and upsized wraithlord.
This is the part that I don't like.
I like the model.
I like the concept.
I like the background behind the model (Twins, similar to paired revenants, except one is dead)
I do not like the fact that I could buy a Baneblade, Stompa or Mega-Dread for exactly the same price.
It's ok, I'm sure GW have a plan to solve that problem imminently.
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Post by: FenWulf29
azreal13 wrote: Goliath wrote: FenWulf29 wrote: Nafarious wrote:There is not a single problem with the new tau riptide. Or the wraith knight.
So it not a problem that GW are charging super heavy tank prices for and upsized wraithlord.
This is the part that I don't like.
I like the model.
I like the concept.
I like the background behind the model (Twins, similar to paired revenants, except one is dead)
I do not like the fact that I could buy a Baneblade, Stompa or Mega-Dread for exactly the same price.
It's ok, I'm sure GW have a plan to solve that problem imminently.
Hmmmm Let me guess... Raise the prices of the super heavies?
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Post by: Grimtuff
FenWulf29 wrote: azreal13 wrote: Goliath wrote: FenWulf29 wrote: Nafarious wrote:There is not a single problem with the new tau riptide. Or the wraith knight.
So it not a problem that GW are charging super heavy tank prices for and upsized wraithlord.
This is the part that I don't like.
I like the model.
I like the concept.
I like the background behind the model (Twins, similar to paired revenants, except one is dead)
I do not like the fact that I could buy a Baneblade, Stompa or Mega-Dread for exactly the same price.
It's ok, I'm sure GW have a plan to solve that problem imminently.
Hmmmm Let me guess... Raise the prices of the super heavies? 
Only 3 days till we find out! (maybe).
1206
Post by: Easy E
I don't see it the new releases as bland as much as I see it as ... corporate. I use that word in a derogatory manner in this case.
58402
Post by: FenWulf29
Hmm by bland i really mean predictable - I wasn't surprised when I saw the wraithknight, thus iwasnt happy or pleased by it. Whereas if there where new jetbikes i would of been more interested
73671
Post by: infiltratethis
Does it really matter what the speed of the updates are? in the current meta of hide beind the aegis and the only vehicles anyone takes flyers, does it really what artwork is hiding behind the aegis or zipping around the board?
59923
Post by: Baronyu
I agree with OP that the updates are getting bland, I remember getting excited about new releases, even for armies I have no intention in playing/collecting, I just like to see what new stuffs people are getting. But this recent one kinda pushed me off the edge, it's just as everyone have said "One giant MC, one flyer, reboxing old models, etc...", it would've been better if they made units that highlight the strength of each army rather than just lazily throw in a flyer or something. May be they could've given Eldar a flyer defence that isn't a flyer or flakk missile equivalent? May be a psychic power that make them roll on the mishap table? I don't know, something different!
Now, I must say that I'm sure they have fluff and all to go with that giant anime robot of Eldar, or their bootleg razorwing jetfighter, and I'm not saying anyone is wrong if they enjoy these new releases.
46630
Post by: wowsmash
It is predictable, I also like checking out all the new stuff even if I won't collect it just because its fun. Not surprising though. Hollywood is doing it to. Rather than take a chance and make something new their just kicking out repeats of other movies. We're going on what the 4th batman remake now? I've lost count. The last release that really had me salivating was he Necron release and I don't even play them. It did get me to buy the codex just to read though. The last 3 or 4 release have been ok but inside I'm like "is that it".
44272
Post by: Azreal13
wowsmash wrote:It is predictable, I also like checking out all the new stuff even if I won't collect it just because its fun. Not surprising though. Hollywood is doing it to. Rather than take a chance and make something new their just kicking out repeats of other movies. We're going on what the 4th batman remake now? I've lost count. The last release that really had me salivating was he Necron release and I don't even play them. It did get me to buy the codex just to read though. The last 3 or 4 release have been ok but inside I'm like "is that it".
Although, ironically, its the other way around with GW. Why take a risk redoing something old, that people won't necessarily buy unless they like it more than the one they have already, when you can release something new with strong rules that almost railroads a player into buying it, whether they especially want to or not?
58402
Post by: FenWulf29
azreal13 wrote: wowsmash wrote:It is predictable, I also like checking out all the new stuff even if I won't collect it just because its fun. Not surprising though. Hollywood is doing it to. Rather than take a chance and make something new their just kicking out repeats of other movies. We're going on what the 4th batman remake now? I've lost count. The last release that really had me salivating was he Necron release and I don't even play them. It did get me to buy the codex just to read though. The last 3 or 4 release have been ok but inside I'm like "is that it".
Although, ironically, its the other way around with GW. Why take a risk redoing something old, that people won't necessarily buy unless they like it more than the one they have already, when you can release something new with strong rules that almost railroads a player into buying it, whether they especially want to or not?
Yes, it is the other way around. Most of us wanted re makes of some of the old aspect warriors, and jetbikes. Whereas GW release a new kit which current eldar players would buy because they already have most of the other stuff. Take note that I am not an eldar player, so this is bad for me
9892
Post by: Flashman
For my part, I usually like the infantry kits such as Pathfinders, Wraithguard and Shadow Warriors, but the big stuff leaves me cold and I couldn't care less about the fliers, which I maintain are ridiculous in a 28mm scale game.
45565
Post by: cormadepanda
I honestly enjoyed the new release even if predictable. the new kits were refreshing and nice. I enjoy the flier it is a good model, great shape converting potential everywhere. I also like supplement release dex's their price is cringing, but if i haven't seen it yet, it maybe be a whole codex - who knows.
This lack of imagination is kinda depressing to me - sure the wraith knight price is immense, but that model is taller than a rip tide. Can say more than that. If it was equal to a rip tide it would be 30$ less.
I would rather have "bland updates" that don't out date your entire collection and bring your codex to a good six edition quality (the balance of armies have been good the last few Dex's show this). Especially because these "bland" updates feature at least two kits i thought were sexy and awesome. Maybe i just enjoy models to much. Maybe i am not picky enough. Maybe i just hate the hell turkey and think it is an abomination of pointy gak. But others like it.
The fliers in the game are good, rules were not thought out, but they are good.
I liked this release, orks are still 4th ed. I hope they are coming up on the roster soon, but we all know space marines got to go before their xenos.
1206
Post by: Easy E
Flashman wrote:For my part, I usually like the infantry kits such as Pathfinders, Wraithguard and Shadow Warriors, but the big stuff leaves me cold and I couldn't care less about the fliers, which I maintain are ridiculous in a 28mm scale game.
Exalted.
Flyers and super-heavies in 28mm are stupid, full stop.
33539
Post by: Coldhatred
Flashman wrote:For my part, I usually like the infantry kits such as Pathfinders, Wraithguard and Shadow Warriors, but the big stuff leaves me cold and I couldn't care less about the fliers, which I maintain are ridiculous in a 28mm scale game.
Very much agreed on this.
I really do wish they'd just release all the new books at the beginning of the edition and then focus on models, but that will never happen.
71951
Post by: m14dude
Wait, like PP does!?
All kidding aside, GW does a fine job. They do a good job at what they do, it's just the rules for their games don't interest me. I feel their releases aren't bad, and are doing some necessary adjustments with each wave. It just so happens that each release they do has the same shortfalls in the model range.
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Post by: kronk
I've been playing 40k since 2008 and this is the most exciting time I've experienced.
Bland? No. Not by any use of the word.
60127
Post by: Gabrial Seth
All i play are DE and i am working on GK at this moment, for me it is not a problem seeing that i do not know how it used to be, because while i am older than some people i know who play 40k i didnt have the cash to get started when i was younger. From a modeling/painter perspective i love seeing what i cannot afford.
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Post by: walkiflalka
I think instead of just updating codexes in a hurry with like 3 new units, a price increase and a new codex they should spend alot more time on it and make sure that it is good and by that I mean balanced and fun in relation to the other books. Not to mention they shouldn't be pulling tricks like taking the same dire avengers kit without any re modelling or adding of options, halfing the amount of models you get, raising the price and re-releasing it in a new box. Not too mention they give more attention to marines than anyone else, releasing a multitude of marine codexes which are essentially just the same army give or take a few units and special rules. I think and pardon me for thinking outside the GW rhino, maybe its time for a new army altogether, let's get some new xenos teams with different play styles or a mercenary codex or something, just anything as long as it has some more flavours than vanilla marine with some green or grey sprinkles.
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Post by: Pacific
Easy E wrote: Flashman wrote:For my part, I usually like the infantry kits such as Pathfinders, Wraithguard and Shadow Warriors, but the big stuff leaves me cold and I couldn't care less about the fliers, which I maintain are ridiculous in a 28mm scale game.
Exalted.
Flyers and super-heavies in 28mm are stupid, full stop.
Artillery pieces are even further along the path of implausibility.. not only stuff like the Basilisk, but the thought of the deathstrike missile being used at such range is hilarious.
Although.. I realise we are talking about a universe where people have guns, yet run towards each other to stab their opponent with chainsaws
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Post by: TheAuldGrump
kronk wrote:I've been playing 40k since 2008 and this is the most exciting time I've experienced.
Bland? No. Not by any use of the word.
No, not by your use of the word.
I on the other hand would describe some - an increasing number - as bland.
Some - sadly, also an increasing number - I describe as cartoony. And cartoony bothers me a great deal more than bland. (Bland actually does not bother me much at all.)
And a diminishing number I would describe as 'Wow, that mini is hot!  Had a loverly moment of that looking at some of the GW elven cavalry in the IoB box - something that I was not expecting.
And, of course, a small number of miniatures qualify for 'What the heck is that supposed to be?!' - mostly Hobbit related right now. (Not singling GW out there - every miniatures company has one, now and again. That GW has more flops is more because of the quantity that they are churning out.)
Which means... not a whole lot, my tastes are not your tastes, and we are each allowed to like the miniatures that we like. We even likely agree on some.
But 'Not by any use of the word' is just wrong. Too many on this very thread are already using that very term....
The Auld Grump
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Post by: Kanluwen
FenWulf29 wrote: Nafarious wrote:There is not a single problem with the new tau riptide. Or the wraith knight.
So it not a problem that GW are charging super heavy tank prices for and upsized wraithlord.
Why does the fact that it's "superheavy tank prices" matter?
The Wraithknight is not small. It might have spindly limbs; but it is by no means small.
I would love to hear the reasoning as to why this is such a big deal.
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Post by: Remulus
I really like the rapid rate GW is releasing codex's, its nice to see a lot of armies get the spot light, which gives a great variety.
However, I do think the new releases are bland, but my reason for that is pretty personal. I am much more of a fan of infantry, and dont like those amazingly expensive walkers/fliers, so I just don't get very excited.
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Post by: Azreal13
Kanluwen wrote: FenWulf29 wrote: Nafarious wrote:There is not a single problem with the new tau riptide. Or the wraith knight.
So it not a problem that GW are charging super heavy tank prices for and upsized wraithlord.
Why does the fact that it's "superheavy tank prices" matter?
The Wraithknight is not small. It might have spindly limbs; but it is by no means small.
I would love to hear the reasoning as to why this is such a big deal.
Are you really, genuinely, seriously asking this question?
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Post by: Kanluwen
azreal13 wrote: Kanluwen wrote: FenWulf29 wrote: Nafarious wrote:There is not a single problem with the new tau riptide. Or the wraith knight.
So it not a problem that GW are charging super heavy tank prices for and upsized wraithlord.
Why does the fact that it's "superheavy tank prices" matter?
The Wraithknight is not small. It might have spindly limbs; but it is by no means small.
I would love to hear the reasoning as to why this is such a big deal.
Are you really, genuinely, seriously asking this question?
Yes, I am.
Do you actually have some kind of serious answer or are you just going to be snarky?
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Post by: Azreal13
I honestly don't know where to begin!
I mean seriously Kan, I know you have WK credentials, but if you genuinely can't see the issue to the point where you ask that question, it probably isn't worth getting into.
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Post by: Kanluwen
azreal13 wrote:I honestly don't know where to begin!
I mean seriously Kan, I know you have WK credentials, but if you genuinely can't see the issue to the point where you ask that question, it probably isn't worth getting into.
Look, the Wraithknight's price?
Yeah, it's a hefty price tag.
But at this point we have NO CLUE what is being done with superheavies. For all we know, the Baneblade and Stompa are going to be in the next Guard and Ork codices.
I really do want to know why people think the Wraithknight's price tag is such a big deal.
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Post by: BryllCream
I don't know about an actual Baneblade. I can see a tank bigger than a Russ, maybe 14/14/12, 4 hull points and a slew of weapons (multiple twin-linked punisher cannons! BS4 upgrade!). I would probably buy that regardless of price  epic tanks are awesome.
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Post by: Coldhatred
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Post by: Azreal13
Kanluwen wrote: azreal13 wrote:I honestly don't know where to begin!
I mean seriously Kan, I know you have WK credentials, but if you genuinely can't see the issue to the point where you ask that question, it probably isn't worth getting into.
Look, the Wraithknight's price?
Yeah, it's a hefty price tag.
But at this point we have NO CLUE what is being done with superheavies. For all we know, the Baneblade and Stompa are going to be in the next Guard and Ork codices.
I really do want to know why people think the Wraithknight's price tag is such a big deal.
It's £70 for one model!
It's £70 for one model that doesn't appear to use any more material than a Riptide, which is notably less money.
It's £70 for one model that doesn't appear to use any more material than a Riptide, which is notably less money and other manufacturers offer similar scale kits for dramatically less.
It's £70 for one model that doesn't appear to use any more material than a Riptide, which is notably less money and other manufacturers offer similar scale kits for dramatically less and costs more in other parts of the world for no good reason
Other than that? No problem at all!
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Post by: BryllCream
How many points is it? Assuming it's more than 180 it's probably less expensive per point than three chimeras.
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Post by: cowen70
They absolutely aren't bland. Bland would be a subjective term so to judge it we'd have to look at what the critics would previously have considered "not bland".
We are getting up to date codex's that are not ridiculously overpowered as previous complainents would say but fit quite nicely. Chaos, Dark Angels, Tau and Eldar are 6th edition and not one seems ridiculous like the Wardian criticisms of the last edition. Tau are perhaps the only ones with detractors yet I see many BR of people beating them.
Models are more detailed than a few years ago, ten times more detailed than years before that. The Chaos range is quite frankly gorgeous. I'd be surprised if I didn't see the Eldar new releases in a new light. The fact that there is no new Dire Avenger sprue is a great disappointment BUT there are some nice models out there and if the price is waiting for new sculpts but getting up to date rules, well yeah I'll take it and it still doesn't make it bland.
The fact is what they do release is not bland, codex updates shouldn't be equated with absolute new army update. A codex update is just that it just so happens to coincide for good reasons of course with new models. The models they do release are gorgeous.
If not for the updates the very things that Eldar were good at wouldn't exist. Tau would be languishing without an update. Instead every codex is rapidly being updated to 6th rules. At least this way we won't have what we had in 5th, Orks and Black Templars sitting with nth year old codexs that aren't even that relevant.
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Post by: TheAuldGrump
cowen70 wrote:They absolutely aren't bland. Bland would be a subjective term so to judge it we'd have to look at what the critics would previously have considered "not bland".
We are getting up to date codex's that are not ridiculously overpowered as previous complainents would say but fit quite nicely. Chaos, Dark Angels, Tau and Eldar are 6th edition and not one seems ridiculous like the Wardian criticisms of the last edition. Tau are perhaps the only ones with detractors yet I see many BR of people beating them.
Models are more detailed than a few years ago, ten times more detailed than years before that. The Chaos range is quite frankly gorgeous. I'd be surprised if I didn't see the Eldar new releases in a new light. The fact that there is no new Dire Avenger sprue is a great disappointment BUT there are some nice models out there and if the price is waiting for new sculpts but getting up to date rules, well yeah I'll take it and it still doesn't make it bland.
The fact is what they do release is not bland, codex updates shouldn't be equated with absolute new army update. A codex update is just that it just so happens to coincide for good reasons of course with new models. The models they do release are gorgeous.
If not for the updates the very things that Eldar were good at wouldn't exist. Tau would be languishing without an update. Instead every codex is rapidly being updated to 6th rules. At least this way we won't have what we had in 5th, Orks and Black Templars sitting with nth year old codexs that aren't even that relevant.
No, bland is a subjective term so whether or not a given figure is bland differs depending on viewer - usefulness does not enter into the equation....
Every viewer is a 'critic' - not just professional critics.
And, sorry... but if a theme is repeated over and over... even if the first iteration was not bland it is quite likely that the fifteenth iteration is.
The amount of detail has little bearing on whether a miniature is bland, banal, or just plain blah.
Your definition is lacking in substance. Little, if anything that you mention has anything to do with whether a miniature is bland.
But, again... Bland =/= Bad.
You or I... either and/or both of us are allowed to like something that is bland.
I like vanilla ice cream.
Some of my favorite miniatures are in relaxed, calm, kind of boring poses.
The Auld Grump
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Post by: cowen70
1. I didn't state usefullness as being equivalent to bland. What I did state was that a product of faster releases was to the benefit of armies. It is a consideration, the fact that there isn't a ton of new releases with the codex is a reflection of the speed of updates.
2. every viewer...what? Not relevant, no idea what you are talking about.
3. Repitition doesn't equal bland.
Lacking strong features or characteristics and therefore uninteresting
Having something remain the same does not equate to the above.
4. The other things I mention are more than relevant as to the reasons why people are bitching about new codex releases, they expect vast new updates along with the codex...I mentioned that was why I brought it up perhaps I wasn't clear.
5. The usage of bland is generally judged to be pejorative.
68802
Post by: TheAuldGrump
cowen70 wrote:1. I didn't state usefullness as being equivalent to bland. What I did state was that a product of faster releases was to the benefit of armies. It is a consideration, the fact that there isn't a ton of new releases with the codex is a reflection of the speed of updates.
2. every viewer...what? Not relevant, no idea what you are talking about.
3. Repitition doesn't equal bland.
Lacking strong features or characteristics and therefore uninteresting
Having something remain the same does not equate to the above.
4. The other things I mention are more than relevant as to the reasons why people are bitching about new codex releases, they expect vast new updates along with the codex...I mentioned that was why I brought it up perhaps I wasn't clear.
5. The usage of bland is generally judged to be pejorative.
Look up the definition of bland....
1. pleasantly gentle or agreeable: a bland, affable manner.
2. soothing or balmy, as air: a bland southern breeze.
3. nonirritating, as food or medicines: a bland diet.
4. not highly flavored; mild; tasteless: a bland sauce.
5. lacking in special interest, liveliness, individuality, etc.; insipid; dull: a bland young man; a bland situation comedy.
Notice number 5? Lacking in individuality? Repetition does factor into whether something is bland...
Notice also that most of the definitions are about the subject being unobjectionable - not a perjorative term at all.
I study the English language, and I stand by my above statement. Many of GWs releases are bland. Some go so far as to be boring - which I will grant as a negative. Some few are blah which is a colloquialism combining bland and boring with a negative identifier - which is most definitely a pejorative.
The Auld Grump
34242
Post by: -Loki-
kronk wrote:I've been playing 40k since 2008 and this is the most exciting time I've experienced.
Bland? No. Not by any use of the word.
I've got to agree, at least for the armies I play. I've been playing GW games of various types since about 1992, and the sort of stuff they're giving us in plastic now I never even dreamed they'd do at all back then. Something like the Winged Tyrant or the Tervigon, or even something as simple (now) as plastic Gargoyles, back then would have been laughed off as never going to happen material. Add to that how much Forgeworld as exploded, originally a company made up of tread heads making some super heavy tanks for Guard turned into making 40k scale Titans, additional models with rules for nearly every army in the game, and even expanding to Warhammer Fantasy and the bloody Horus Heresy, including models of Primarchs..
Sure, GW itself has been making fething dumb decision after fething dumb decision. The price has gotten fairly well out of control (to the point that the niche Forgeworld products, always the more expensive stuff, is now almost on price parity), GW have been making every effort to piss off as many customers as they can and they've dropped support for plenty of stuff (specialist games, official tournaments, games day in various areas, etc).
However, I can't complain about 40k and Warhammer Fantasy the games. Codex and Army book releases have quickened lately, army model ranges have gotten amazingly large with huge amounts in plastic, and my friends and I still have an absolute blast playing them.
I just wish GW corporate would get their heads out of their shareholders asses.
54392
Post by: cowen70
TheAuldGrump wrote:cowen70 wrote:1. I didn't state usefullness as being equivalent to bland. What I did state was that a product of faster releases was to the benefit of armies. It is a consideration, the fact that there isn't a ton of new releases with the codex is a reflection of the speed of updates.
2. every viewer...what? Not relevant, no idea what you are talking about.
3. Repitition doesn't equal bland.
Lacking strong features or characteristics and therefore uninteresting
Having something remain the same does not equate to the above.
4. The other things I mention are more than relevant as to the reasons why people are bitching about new codex releases, they expect vast new updates along with the codex...I mentioned that was why I brought it up perhaps I wasn't clear.
5. The usage of bland is generally judged to be pejorative.
Look up the definition of bland....
1. pleasantly gentle or agreeable: a bland, affable manner.
2. soothing or balmy, as air: a bland southern breeze.
3. nonirritating, as food or medicines: a bland diet.
4. not highly flavored; mild; tasteless: a bland sauce.
5. lacking in special interest, liveliness, individuality, etc.; insipid; dull: a bland young man; a bland situation comedy.
Notice number 5? Lacking in individuality? Repetition does factor into whether something is bland...
Notice also that most of the definitions are about the subject being unobjectionable - not a perjorative term at all.
I study the English language, and I stand by my above statement. Many of GWs releases are bland. Some go so far as to be boring - which I will grant as a negative. Some few are blah which is a colloquialism combining bland and boring with a negative identifier - which is most definitely a pejorative.
The Auld Grump
When I said the way Bland is being used I was more focused on how it is used "here" not in general and no the definition no5 does not to me apply to repetitiveness. I don't find the new releases to be boring but again this is subjective. They are far more interesting than before to my subjective sense, they are certainly more detailed, they are varying in details like size in comparison to before...honestly I can't help but think people considering bland now as being new to the hobby because first edition to now...sorry but no comparison. If we start going Orks, well yes took a more serious turn but for the best and in need of new releases but no bland doesn't fit anywhere if apply anything but personal opinion. By any measurable criteria they really aren't and quite frankly I can't understand how anyone would say they were.
I'd happily join the queue to gak all over GW for not remaking the Dire Avengers but that isn't a release that is just gak they ain't done.
242
Post by: Bookwrack
Oh! Oh! Can we now have whoever that donkey-cave was who got crimes-against-humanity level offended about using 'vanilla' to mean 'plain' (cause the vanilla bean is actually an amazing and exotic flavor, and anyone using it to mean commonplace or regular is WRONG!!!!!!) come to this thread and lead us to another epic derail to ward off potential blandness?
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Post by: Eldarain
-Loki- wrote: kronk wrote:I've been playing 40k since 2008 and this is the most exciting time I've experienced.
Bland? No. Not by any use of the word.
I've got to agree, at least for the armies I play. I've been playing GW games of various types since about 1992, and the sort of stuff they're giving us in plastic now I never even dreamed they'd do at all back then. Something like the Winged Tyrant or the Tervigon, or even something as simple (now) as plastic Gargoyles, back then would have been laughed off as never going to happen material. Add to that how much Forgeworld as exploded, originally a company made up of tread heads making some super heavy tanks for Guard turned into making 40k scale Titans, additional models with rules for nearly every army in the game, and even expanding to Warhammer Fantasy and the bloody Horus Heresy, including models of Primarchs..
Sure, GW itself has been making fething dumb decision after fething dumb decision. The price has gotten fairly well out of control (to the point that the niche Forgeworld products, always the more expensive stuff, is now almost on price parity), GW have been making every effort to piss off as many customers as they can and they've dropped support for plenty of stuff (specialist games, official tournaments, games day in various areas, etc).
However, I can't complain about 40k and Warhammer Fantasy the games. Codex and Army book releases have quickened lately, army model ranges have gotten amazingly large with huge amounts in plastic, and my friends and I still have an absolute blast playing them.
I just wish GW corporate would get their heads out of their shareholders asses.
Sums up my thoughts perfectly. Exalted.
68802
Post by: TheAuldGrump
Bookwrack wrote:
Oh! Oh! Can we now have whoever that donkey-cave was who got crimes-against-humanity level offended about using 'vanilla' to mean 'plain' (cause the vanilla bean is actually an amazing and exotic flavor, and anyone using it to mean commonplace or regular is WRONG!!!!!!) come to this thread and lead us to another epic derail to ward off potential blandness?
Possibly because in some foods Vanilla is the base flavor to which other flavors are added?
But a nice French vanilla, with little flecks of the vanilla bean, and maybe a hint of rum....
As I have said - I have little to no problem with bland - but too many recent *cough* Chaos *cough, cough* miniatures weren't 'bland' they were 'bad', and not in a good way.
The high elf releases? A trifle bland, but aside from the kite being dragged by an eagle? Not bad at all.
The horse archers were very nice.
The Skaven in the IoB box... managed to be both bland and bad. Way too obvious that a bunch of pre-designed pieces were cobbled together to make miniatures.
The Auld Grump, at least the elves have escaped the Island of the Huge Hands....
12313
Post by: Ouze
SoloFalcon1138 wrote:funny, because a year ago everyone was whining that GW was updating the armies too slowly.
Can't please everyone all the time, I guess.
Let's try an analogy.
You go to a Burger King. They get your food to you, and it's pretty good, but it takes 4 minutes to get made.
As you're leaving, the manager asks how it was, and you say "I wish you could get me my food in 30 seconds".
The next time you go to that Burger King, your burger is completely raw, cold pink meat. When you complain, the manager says "well, you wanted it faster!"
Does this analogy help you understand that there are sometimes more than 2, equally insipid, choices? That sometimes as a major franchiser, you have an understanding of what your capabilities are, and that it's actually worse to try and fulfil customer demands if you know cannot reasonably do so?
I mean, I don't know if they're bland or not. I'm just trying to point out how clownshoes the false choice you presented was.
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Post by: BryllCream
Problem with that analogy is that the codexes in 6th seem to be a lot better balanced than they were before. So they're more regular *and* they're more fun. I see nothing wrong with that.
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Post by: Ouze
I stated that I don't know if it's bland or not - indeed, I don't even own the 6th ed rulebook so I can't say anything about the ruleset.
I was solely referring to the counterargument that there are only 2 lousy options with no other solution.
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Post by: BryllCream
Well before they were slow and crappy, now they're quick and good. People are still whinging.
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Post by: rohansoldier
I can see why people think that the new release schedule is bland. Like others have said, it seems that GW has a ticklist for each army that must be filled whether the army suits it or not.
Flyers - check!
Big kit - check!
Cut down old kits into smaller boxes - check!
Update one old metal kit to plastic - check!
The only exceptions to this I have seen are necrons and dark eldar as they needed a complete overhaul to make them viable armies.
I think the Tau needed less updating model wise than other ranges so they fit the formula quite well.
Eldar could do with the aspects, phoenix lords etc being updated to plastic in order to make the army easier and cheaper to collect from the start (although with GW cutting the avenger kit in half for the same price who can be sure it would be?) but with the finecast available for only slightly more money with an extra model it isn't drastic imo.
Plus I have 4000pts of Eldar so have pretty much all the aspects I will ever need (I only don't have swooping hawks, shining spears and striking scorpions which I will look at getting if the rules are up to scratch).
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Post by: silvu
I have to admit that I do rather like the way its going right now, whilst it is a tad obvious at least everything is being brought into 6th at a nice pace.
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Post by: SalamanderMarine
I must say I am very happy with warhammer releases lately, the speed will help balance if all books can be upgraded in 6th ed or at least most of them, I loved most of the tau release and all of the Eldar release, especially the wraithknight.
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Post by: keezus
IMHO, rules aside, I think that the current releases are more -inconsistent- than bland. There are some fantastic models in each range, and some downright silly looking models as well. From a modelling standpoint, GW's newest releases seem to suffer from poor enforcement of a "style bible". The last 40k releases that had a very unified feel to them were Dark Eldar and Necrons. The new Chaos range, while unified in their NEW style, with lots of raised banding on the armor departs heavily from the existing range and is symptomatic of GW's strategy of "fill every empty spot with detail whether it makes sense or not". The Dark Angels range, was largely consistent with the old range, with the exception of the new vehicles, which stand out a lot. IMHO, GW would have been much better off to put out a DA upgrade sprue to bring all the old vehicles in line with the new design direction of extra-church/shrine look, or make the new vehicles less church/shrine looking.
The Tau and Eldar releases suffer from poor adherence to a centralized style bible. I feel the Tau in particular suffer from having 1/2 the range having smooth organic lines (Vehicles, Stealth Suits) and everything else being old school battletech boxy (Battlesuits, Riptide). GW had a chance to unify the feel of the range and it was squandered. The riptide in particular feels like a wasted opportunity as I feel GW's design teams gave it poor general proportions and tried to hide it by covering it in (nonsensical and mostly flat) detail.
With the Eldar, I feel the new flyer is brilliant (if a bit lacking in hull detail - wot... no spirit stones???) - but the Wraith Knight again, suffers from strange proportion problems - both it and the riptide have extremely short arms when compared with the length of the legs. The barrel chest and small head IMHO is a poor departure from all other Eldar walkers in terms of unified style. The spirit seer feels phoned-in and a throwback to the silly dancing Necromunda farseer on which it appears to be based. It looks extra terrible next to the new character model and plastic farseer which are both of high quality.
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Post by: Fenrir Kitsune
silvu wrote:I have to admit that I do rather like the way its going right now, whilst it is a tad obvious at least everything is being brought into 6th at a nice pace.
If they keep it up and do all armies, I'd tend to agree. Hopefully GW won't stop and leave some armies in the cold.
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Post by: studderingdave
silvu wrote:Hopefully GW won't stop and leave some armies in the cold.
Right, because that never happened before
A lot of the new releases look cool, but the magic is gone for me. Gone are the days of saving for weeks to get a greater demon and finding something even cooler on the shelves and being pumped about it.
32159
Post by: jonolikespie
keezus wrote:IMHO, rules aside, I think that the current releases are more -inconsistent- than bland. There are some fantastic models in each range, and some downright silly looking models as well. From a modelling standpoint, GW's newest releases seem to suffer from poor enforcement of a "style bible". The last 40k releases that had a very unified feel to them were Dark Eldar and Necrons. The new Chaos range, while unified in their NEW style, with lots of raised banding on the armor departs heavily from the existing range and is symptomatic of GW's strategy of "fill every empty spot with detail whether it makes sense or not". The Dark Angels range, was largely consistent with the old range, with the exception of the new vehicles, which stand out a lot. IMHO, GW would have been much better off to put out a DA upgrade sprue to bring all the old vehicles in line with the new design direction of extra-church/shrine look, or make the new vehicles less church/shrine looking.
The Tau and Eldar releases suffer from poor adherence to a centralized style bible. I feel the Tau in particular suffer from having 1/2 the range having smooth organic lines (Vehicles, Stealth Suits) and everything else being old school battletech boxy (Battlesuits, Riptide). GW had a chance to unify the feel of the range and it was squandered. The riptide in particular feels like a wasted opportunity as I feel GW's design teams gave it poor general proportions and tried to hide it by covering it in (nonsensical and mostly flat) detail.
With the Eldar, I feel the new flyer is brilliant (if a bit lacking in hull detail - wot... no spirit stones???) - but the Wraith Knight again, suffers from strange proportion problems - both it and the riptide have extremely short arms when compared with the length of the legs. The barrel chest and small head IMHO is a poor departure from all other Eldar walkers in terms of unified style. The spirit seer feels phoned-in and a throwback to the silly dancing Necromunda farseer on which it appears to be based. It looks extra terrible next to the new character model and plastic farseer which are both of high quality.
Exalted.
Not all of the latest releases have been 'bad' per say, but most have left me wondering if the sculptors have taken more than glance at the existing lines, way too much of the new stuff looks entirely out of place when compared with the rest of that faction's range.
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Post by: Gabrial Seth
TheAuldGrump wrote: Bookwrack wrote:
Oh! Oh! Can we now have whoever that donkey-cave was who got crimes-against-humanity level offended about using 'vanilla' to mean 'plain' (cause the vanilla bean is actually an amazing and exotic flavor, and anyone using it to mean commonplace or regular is WRONG!!!!!!) come to this thread and lead us to another epic derail to ward off potential blandness?
Possibly because in some foods Vanilla is the base flavor to which other flavors are added?
But a nice French vanilla, with little flecks of the vanilla bean, and maybe a hint of rum....
As I have said - I have little to no problem with bland - but too many recent *cough* Chaos *cough, cough* miniatures weren't 'bland' they were 'bad', and not in a good way.
The high elf releases? A trifle bland, but aside from the kite being dragged by an eagle? Not bad at all.
The horse archers were very nice.
The Skaven in the IoB box... managed to be both bland and bad. Way too obvious that a bunch of pre-designed pieces were cobbled together to make miniatures.
The Auld Grump, at least the elves have escaped the Island of the Huge Hands....
I liked WoC release they had, it was cool and very chaos-y without being boring. Bland gives a faction a uniformity with High Elves that is good, they are a uniform army.
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Post by: Adam LongWalker
Yes the codexes are getting so bland (to me) in the terms of game mechanics. The whole concept of 6th EDrules and the recent codexs are so mind numbing (game mechanics wise) once you break down how things work. I'm rather insulted on how dumb downed things are with the entire setup.
There is, I think something called codex fatigue/ information overload. So much material has been put out in such a short time that I believe certain people hare having a difficult time in digesting all of the information/synergy of one codex before another one arrives. Some people might be getting that "eh" feeling about "another codex" so soon.
Just a thought or two
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Post by: Pacific
From a post just started in the news & rumour section:
Firstly, the exodite dragon riders, court of the young king, smaller avatar etc appears to have been rumour only.
Once again fans getting all kinds of excited about the prospect of a new codex, and the kind of opportunity that represents to do something new. I mean, after all the Eldar have been around since the beginning of the game, and even now there are a new range of books from BL fleshing them out even more. Undoubtedly there was massive potential there to make people really excited about this release, beyond just reminding fans of the codex's existence + add a bit of codex-creep to make them more powerful.
Instead they just get a new plastic kit, add a hardcover, swap some of the background and stories around, change a few stats; job done. I suppose you could say bland, but the phrase 'dull as dishwater' also springs to mind. It's all just re-treading the same ground covered many times before.
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Post by: jonolikespie
Out of curiosity what was the last codex/army book that had any significant changes/additions in fluff from the book before it?
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Post by: Nevelon
jonolikespie wrote:Out of curiosity what was the last codex/army book that had any significant changes/additions in fluff from the book before it?
The necrons got a whole re-boot, IIRC. Not sure if there is one more recent then that.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
And before that Grey Knights.
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Post by: His Imortal Shadow
i agree with the first post, getting bland, and leaving me trying to figure out why 8th edition warhammer player were left with old books for over a year before a new book
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Post by: -Loki-
Pacific wrote:Once again fans getting all kinds of excited about the prospect of a new codex, and the kind of opportunity that represents to do something new. I mean, after all the Eldar have been around since the beginning of the game, and even now there are a new range of books from BL fleshing them out even more. Undoubtedly there was massive potential there to make people really excited about this release, beyond just reminding fans of the codex's existence + add a bit of codex-creep to make them more powerful. Instead they just get a new plastic kit, add a hardcover, swap some of the background and stories around, change a few stats; job done. I suppose you could say bland, but the phrase 'dull as dishwater' also springs to mind. It's all just re-treading the same ground covered many times before. To be fair, this is one of the reasons GW wanted to clamp down on rumours. When a codex is well underway, they know what they're including. It's not changing. When someone jumps on Warseer and say 'yo dawgs, Eldar be gettin Exodites again!' and the rumour community starts getting all excited, it's a bit late in the day to go add exodites to the book. Especially when you consider the actual trustworthy rumour guys like hastings had been saying, long before the Eldar rumours started up, that the first half dozen 6th edition codices were done and in storage ready to release before 5th had even ended.
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Post by: jonolikespie
-Loki- wrote: Pacific wrote:Once again fans getting all kinds of excited about the prospect of a new codex, and the kind of opportunity that represents to do something new. I mean, after all the Eldar have been around since the beginning of the game, and even now there are a new range of books from BL fleshing them out even more. Undoubtedly there was massive potential there to make people really excited about this release, beyond just reminding fans of the codex's existence + add a bit of codex-creep to make them more powerful.
Instead they just get a new plastic kit, add a hardcover, swap some of the background and stories around, change a few stats; job done. I suppose you could say bland, but the phrase 'dull as dishwater' also springs to mind. It's all just re-treading the same ground covered many times before.
To be fair, this is one of the reasons GW wanted to clamp down on rumours. When a codex is well underway, they know what they're including. It's not changing. When someone jumps on Warseer and say 'yo dawgs, Eldar be gettin Exodites again!' and the rumour community starts getting all excited, it's a bit late in the day to go add exodites to the book. Especially when you consider the actual trustworthy rumour guys like hastings had been saying, long before the Eldar rumours started up, that the first half dozen 6th edition codices were done and in storage ready to release before 5th had even ended.
If only there was a way for GW to get feedback from their customers so they could find out what people want beforehand and include it
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Post by: rapterz
jonolikespie wrote:
If only there was a way for GW to get feedback from their customers so they could find out what people want beforehand and include it
I used to think like that, until i realized that practically no one I've ever encountered knows how to design something for a wargame that isn't some how broken.
edit: GW doesn't need feedback from us, as we don't want them to be a business.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Of course they (should) want feed back from us. Play-testing is what the community tends to be great at. I've been doing play-testing for over two years now and it's both fun to be involved in and, if you have developers that trust you, a great way to improve games and catch problems before they go to print.
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Post by: -Loki-
jonolikespie wrote: -Loki- wrote: Pacific wrote:Once again fans getting all kinds of excited about the prospect of a new codex, and the kind of opportunity that represents to do something new. I mean, after all the Eldar have been around since the beginning of the game, and even now there are a new range of books from BL fleshing them out even more. Undoubtedly there was massive potential there to make people really excited about this release, beyond just reminding fans of the codex's existence + add a bit of codex-creep to make them more powerful.
Instead they just get a new plastic kit, add a hardcover, swap some of the background and stories around, change a few stats; job done. I suppose you could say bland, but the phrase 'dull as dishwater' also springs to mind. It's all just re-treading the same ground covered many times before.
To be fair, this is one of the reasons GW wanted to clamp down on rumours. When a codex is well underway, they know what they're including. It's not changing. When someone jumps on Warseer and say 'yo dawgs, Eldar be gettin Exodites again!' and the rumour community starts getting all excited, it's a bit late in the day to go add exodites to the book. Especially when you consider the actual trustworthy rumour guys like hastings had been saying, long before the Eldar rumours started up, that the first half dozen 6th edition codices were done and in storage ready to release before 5th had even ended.
If only there was a way for GW to get feedback from their customers so they could find out what people want beforehand and include it
I'm not saying GW are good at communication. I'm just saying it's a bit rich blaming GW for, say, something like Exodites not being in the Eldar codex when the community make themselves expect it, and hype it up.
General rule with rumours is always that they're rumours. Once your start hyping yourself up for a release based on rumour, you only have yourself to blame when it doesn't pan out.
Sure, GW could communicate better. But they don't. That doesn't mean what unreliable rumour spreaders are any more trustworthy. Most of the time, it's one post wonders who start a rumour and never show up again. Gamers are pretty easy to troll that way.
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Post by: rapterz
H.B.M.C. wrote:Of course they (should) want feed back from us. Play-testing is what the community tends to be great at. I've been doing play-testing for over two years now and it's both fun to be involved in and, if you have developers that trust you, a great way to improve games and catch problems before they go to print.
I'll grant you that...as long as warhammer isn't the game in question. Story background has corrupted too many people to have unbiased decision making just regular wargamers. Just as an example if I were to be a playtester back when necrons dropped, then mindshackle would have been thrown out (how does mindslave tyranids get bugged?) post haste, as would wraiths, reanimation protocols, etc etc. Funnily enough, the rule of cool is NOT cool when it comes to rules.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
As someone who writes rules professionally I can say that yes, the rule of cool can apply to rules. You talk of various Necron things that you would have "thrown out". That's ludicrous.
You only "throw out" concepts that simply aren't working and cannot work no matter how much you try. The problems you cite (Wraiths are a problem? The whole unit? You'd just get rid of 'em?) are things you deal with by balancing them as best you can and testing those changes. 100% balance is impossible, but a "perfect imbalance" is quite obtainable.
That's what testing is for.
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Post by: jonolikespie
rapterz wrote: jonolikespie wrote:
If only there was a way for GW to get feedback from their customers so they could find out what people want beforehand and include it
I used to think like that, until i realized that practically no one I've ever encountered knows how to design something for a wargame that isn't some how broken.
edit: GW doesn't need feedback from us, as we don't want them to be a business.
I'm not talking about GW accepting rules put forward by fans, I'm talking about them noticing that people really wanted new eldar jetbikes and making them instead of- ok the eldar release wasn't that bad. Better example: I heard a lot of people wanting a resculpt of the basic chaos marine box when they were redone to bring them in line with the DV stuff, instead we got dino bots no one asked for.
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Post by: Dysartes
H.B.M.C. wrote:Of course they (should) want feed back from us. Play-testing is what the community tends to be great at. I've been doing play-testing for over two years now and it's both fun to be involved in and, if you have developers that trust you, a great way to improve games and catch problems before they go to print.
Agreed - I'm helping playtest (and proof-read) an upcoming RPG at the moment, and spotting problems (then persuading the designer that they are problems) s quite rewarding.
The occasional feeling that he's changing things to spite me is entirely co-incidental, I assure you
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Post by: Pacific
-Loki- wrote: jonolikespie wrote: -Loki- wrote: Pacific wrote:Once again fans getting all kinds of excited about the prospect of a new codex, and the kind of opportunity that represents to do something new. I mean, after all the Eldar have been around since the beginning of the game, and even now there are a new range of books from BL fleshing them out even more. Undoubtedly there was massive potential there to make people really excited about this release, beyond just reminding fans of the codex's existence + add a bit of codex-creep to make them more powerful.
Instead they just get a new plastic kit, add a hardcover, swap some of the background and stories around, change a few stats; job done. I suppose you could say bland, but the phrase 'dull as dishwater' also springs to mind. It's all just re-treading the same ground covered many times before.
To be fair, this is one of the reasons GW wanted to clamp down on rumours. When a codex is well underway, they know what they're including. It's not changing. When someone jumps on Warseer and say 'yo dawgs, Eldar be gettin Exodites again!' and the rumour community starts getting all excited, it's a bit late in the day to go add exodites to the book. Especially when you consider the actual trustworthy rumour guys like hastings had been saying, long before the Eldar rumours started up, that the first half dozen 6th edition codices were done and in storage ready to release before 5th had even ended.
If only there was a way for GW to get feedback from their customers so they could find out what people want beforehand and include it
I'm not saying GW are good at communication. I'm just saying it's a bit rich blaming GW for, say, something like Exodites not being in the Eldar codex when the community make themselves expect it, and hype it up.
I'm not blaming GW for that; my point was that to use the exodites, the Demiurg, other wild rumours as an illustration of what GW is not doing. i.e. coming up with anything exciting or different for a new release.
That the fans (and to be honest anyone with 10 seconds of thought) could come up with so many ideas, and absolutely none of it makes it into the new cycle of releases, I think speaks volumes about where the company is at these days; i.e. the cutting back, the re-treading of old ground and conservatism, and in general complete dirth of imagination.
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Post by: mattyrm
Personally I like the Tau and the Eldar, so I would have to say no, but obviously its a very subjective point, what's pretty to one fan is ugly to another.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Liking them doesn't make them not bland though. I really like the Wraithknight, but I acknowledge that it was the path of least resistance for GW to make one (take Wraithlord, scale up 100%). They could have done so much more, yet didn't.
35006
Post by: Medium of Death
I think we always see the community shine when it comes to the more mundane GW releases.
This sublime Heldrake conversion for example.
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?355906-Marshalfaust-takes-on-the-Heldrake/page2
I think the Wraithknight will become more apparent as a less bland kit after people have got their hands on it... hopefully.
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Post by: Sidstyler
Ironically I'd like it a lot more if they literally did take the wraithlord and up-scale it, lol. It would fix everything I dislike about the wraithknight: the back vanes would look better (they just look weird and way too "knobby" on the wraithknight), the head would be larger, and the chest would be a little smaller.
I mean normally I'm all for more realistically-proportioned models, so it's strange that I'm suggesting GW make a model with a tiny body and a big head but it's the look I'm used to for Eldar wraith constructs, so...
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Whoa... how was that Heldrake made? What bits?
35006
Post by: Medium of Death
I think it's just the Heldrake kit with some forgefiend bits. There are some more pics on the Warseer link.
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Post by: FenWulf29
Medium of Death wrote:I think we always see the community shine when it comes to the more mundane GW releases.
I see your point, however i dont expect to pay over twice the amount of money for a 40k plastic tank than i would pay for a Resin and Metal historical tank and then have too convert to make it look nice
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Post by: Rayvon
For me they are not really bland, I think just adding a huge model to each army is a bit of a cash grab but thats what we should expect.
I dont see how bringing out updated stuff predictably each month can be anything but a good thing, it could be so much worse.
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Post by: jonolikespie
Back to that conversion for a sec, the head and extra tail stuff looks like it's from the forgefiend kit. *Edit* Also you can't tell me this doesn't scream "We only put 30 seconds of thought into this concept".
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Post by: Dysartes
jonolikespie wrote:Also you can't tell me this doesn't scream "We only put 30 seconds of thought into this concept".
I, for one, like he fact they're using Epic designs as a base for Apocalypse kits, even if there are some elements (such as the head) which I don't think work.
Bring on the Silver Towers of Tzeentch!
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Post by: FenWulf29
jonolikespie wrote:Back to that conversion for a sec, the head and extra tail stuff looks like it's from the forgefiend kit. *Edit* Also you can't tell me this doesn't scream "We only put 30 seconds of thought into this concept". 
Wow havent seen that yet! Hope they have some different apoc stuff in there - but i wouldnt mind large epic things, because they have been around for over a decade. However i do see your point, looking into it, it does seem, well, bland.
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Post by: kooshlord
curran12 wrote:I have a feeling that GW could include a free puppy and handjob with a new codex release and people would find some way to whine about that as well.
Not excusing GW's mistakes, mind you, but seriously, it is a seamless shift from "why does GW update so slowwww!" to "these quick regular updates are too predictableeee!"
If it hasn't already been said: I am allergic to dogs. So I want to whine about GW's new codex!
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Post by: boyd
Just Dave wrote:H.B.M.C. wrote:I never called it bland.
I was referring to the thread title.
H.B.M.C. wrote:Why would you want releases to be slower?
Slower releases appears to equate to more in-depth releases; with greater changes and more stuff: what I suspect he meant by more "dynamic".
Do you think they are only working on one project at a time? There was a good 8 months when nothing was released for fantasy. Now every two months something is coming out. I believe it has more to do with their law suit with chapter house. Don't make rules for a model that you don't have an actual model available. Now they are not putting out rules for models that don't exist.
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Post by: Bellicist
I feel the same. The new Eldar models look kind of generic and uncreative. The Wrathguard just got an update that did not change much, which is ok. But the flyer and the Wrathknight just look boring to me. The flyer looks just like a modern fighter plane only a bit more curved and the Wrathknight looks like an upscaled Guardian. They look like the designers where just working to rule and where not really invested.
Its creativity is what made GW great. The reason why I play 40k instead of another game that would cost me much less money is that I love the models and the 40k universe. But when I think over it, most the stuff that caught me was introduced in the 90s, and actually GW is mostly feasting on its old ideas since then.
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Post by: Peregrine
jonolikespie wrote:Also you can't tell me this doesn't scream "We only put 30 seconds of thought into this concept".
To be fair, the artists could have spent a lot of time deliberately planning how to make the ugliest possible model. Making something as bad as that take a lot of effort you know.
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Post by: jonolikespie
Peregrine wrote: jonolikespie wrote:Also you can't tell me this doesn't scream "We only put 30 seconds of thought into this concept".
To be fair, the artists could have spent a lot of time deliberately planning how to make the ugliest possible model. Making something as bad as that take a lot of effort you know.
Very true.
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