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Post by: Isengard
What do we think?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think the changes are interesting and it seems to have made some of the changes I felt were needed and some that were got missed.
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Post by: wilsjur
What about it—its not out yet
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Post by: Isengard
I may have had the opportunity to peruse a copy...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
This thread will be needed tomorrow that's for sure, just get in early so it can get warmed up!
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Post by: TheDraconicLord
Well, my FLGS sold me one and I have to say it's a complete AP2 r*pe train. Imagine Wraithguard with flamers AP2 with a chance for instant kill. And they can have a Wave Serpent as a dedicated transport.
Also, the Crimson Hunter has to be the deadliest flyer there is, at least against other flyers, being able to re-roll penetration hits on flyers that failed to glance or pen. Pity it's made out of paper: AV 10 10 10.
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Post by: Isengard
I have had a reasonable glance through one and I have to say I think some of the changes are spot on and some opportunities were missed.
I just thought we'd need a thread so I started one!
Possibly best not to say too much about what's in the codex yet, might be impolitic. I think it's fair to say that it's not earth-shattering in terms of changes, etc but it adds a fair bit into the areas that need it.
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Post by: Sasori
Most of the new units dont' seem that good, to be honest.
The Wraith Knight, is far to expensive for what it does. If this was back in the era of mech Heavy 5th, It'd be worth it, but it's way to expensive for two shots. it's upgrades are also insanely priced.
The Crimson hunter seems like a really solid Anti-flyer/Anti-Tank unit. You just need to be able to keep it in the air long enough to do it's job.
The Wraithfighter would be awesome, if Terrify removed ATSKNF, as well as fearless. It's great Anti-Infantry, but I don't see Eldar struggeling with infantry at all now.
Warlocks, are going to be interesting. They have the superior lore, but are LD8, so it will be remain to seen how they are. Farseers are still good, Illiac is interesting. All the Phoenix Lords got better.
I'm not quite sure on the Wraith Units yet. They will make a great disruption unit, but are pretty expensive. I'm not sold on the combat version.
Jetbikes got much better, than they were already good. Really, the troops across the board got significantly better.
Once I have time to really go In-depth with it, I'll post more thoughts, but overall, it seems very solid..
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Post by: Isengard
Soild seems a fair summary.
The new kits are lovely, glanced over some of the sprues and they are really lovely. That wraithknight will take some building mind, looks more complex than a stormraven.
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Post by: DeffDred
Isengard wrote:Soild seems a fair summary.
The new kits are lovely, glanced over some of the sprues and they are really lovely. That wraithknight will take some building mind, looks more complex than a stormraven.
To be fair... A box of Space Marines is more complex than a Stormraven.
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Post by: Isengard
A box of dire avengers is a good deal less complex and time consuming to put together now!
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Post by: wilsjur
Isengard wrote:A box of dire avengers is a good deal less complex and time consuming to put together now!
QFT Automatically Appended Next Post: Did Dire Avengers get the range nerf?
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Post by: Sasori
wilsjur wrote:Isengard wrote:A box of dire avengers is a good deal less complex and time consuming to put together now!
QFT
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Did Dire Avengers get the range nerf?
Dire Avengers still have the same range.
I really like the Night Spinner. I really don't like it's in the Heavy Support section, it should really have been in a different slot, than crammed in the Heavy Support.
The Warp Hunter is likely going to be my go-to heavy support choice.
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Post by: pizzaguardian
Since it was nearly an impossible task to make the codex worse, it is better now.
But they seem to have nerfed units that didn't needed nerf.
Buff units that didn't needed buff.
Missed to fix the assault problem.
And somehow left many units hanging with no idea what to do with them. (Like banshees, i mean what are they for now?)
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Post by: nonowho
also the avatar has BS10 and 5 wounds he looks like he could do some damage
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Post by: Eldercaveman
What happened to Runes of Warding?
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Post by: Isengard
Runes of warding are gone there is a range of ancient Eldar artefacts with various effects but no battlefield spanning uber effect.
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Post by: Glocknall
Vaul's Work, Jet Bikes, Dire Avengers, Waves Serpent. Welcome to your new meta.
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Post by: Eldercaveman
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Post by: Sasori
pizzaguardian wrote:Since it was nearly an impossible task to make the codex worse, it is better now.
But they seem to have nerfed units that didn't needed nerf.
Buff units that didn't needed buff.
Missed to fix the assault problem.
And somehow left many units hanging with no idea what to do with them. (Like banshees, i mean what are they for now?)
What units do you feel got nerfed? I feel that just about everything in the codex got a buff, or at least laterally balanced. For some units, it wasn't enough (Banshees), and Warlocks are in flux state, for the moment. Everything else I feel was a solid buff.
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Post by: Andilus Greatsword
They're somewhat meh now. You have to pay extra for them, but they're 1 use only, adding +2 to Deny the Witch. Runes of Witnessing are far better, despite being 1 use only as well - they allow you to re-roll a failed psychic test (potentially saving your ass from perils or to make that crucial test).
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Post by: jifel
I personally think the codex (which I've read) is overall an improvement. It is less unbalanced in that it has fewer broken things and more "good" things. I, as a Nids player, am overjoyed by the beatdown taken by Runes, as this now helps me vs Eldar and DEldar. However, what looks to be a more wraith-centered list will still be overall a good list I think.
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Post by: Bobthehero
So basically like the 3 other codices in term of power?
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Post by: Sasori
I think the internal balance in this one, is better than the CSM and DA, there do not appear to be near as many dud options. External balance, it looks to be balanced like the other 4 6th edition books.
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Post by: Ravenous D
Just glancing through mine now and Im sure glad I didn't open the wraithknight because that think is crap for 300pts, I'd rather take 2 wraithlords.
besides that:
- Farseers: terrible, I rolled it out a bunch of times and sometimes got Doom fortune, the other powers just blow. I even rolled Eldrad and managed it a few times. If I cant rely on them getting good powers they are a waste of points.
-Warlocks: also terrible, seriously you cant rely on a solid battle plan with these things unless you are getting shrouding, and they cant even join wraithguard!
-Spiritseer: cheaper then I expected but otherwise good, 2 rolls on that table is better then one, still random but its better then nothing.
-Wraithguard/blades: No battle trance is a bummer, but I think having a unit of D scythes will be a combat deterrent unless your enemys want to lose half a unit on the way in. Overall happy with these guys.
-Wraithknight: Waste of points, 280pts for 3 s6 plasma cannon shots? Next.
-Jetbikes: Sweet Jesus, why are the models so bad because these things are busted.
Warpspiders: 6 + 2D6 + D6 + shoot + 2D6 move? Holy feth balls!! and they are S7 against vehicles and everything i3 and lower? Give me 30.
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Post by: Warboss Imbad Ironskull
How are Autarchs looking?
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Post by: ShatteredBlade
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Post by: Sasori
Ravenous D wrote:Just glancing through mine now and Im sure glad I didn't open the wraithknight because that think is crap for 300pts, I'd rather take 2 wraithlords.
besides that:
- Farseers: terrible, I rolled it out a bunch of times and sometimes got Doom fortune, the other powers just blow. I even rolled Eldrad and managed it a few times. If I cant rely on them getting good powers they are a waste of points.
-Warlocks: also terrible, seriously you cant rely on a solid battle plan with these things unless you are getting shrouding, and they cant even join wraithguard!
-Spiritseer: cheaper then I expected but otherwise good, 2 rolls on that table is better then one, still random but its better then nothing.
-Wraithguard/blades: No battle trance is a bummer, but I think having a unit of D scythes will be a combat deterrent unless your enemys want to lose half a unit on the way in. Overall happy with these guys.
-Wraithknight: Waste of points, 280pts for 3 s6 plasma cannon shots? Next.
-Jetbikes: Sweet Jesus, why are the models so bad because these things are busted.
Warpspiders: 6 + 2D6 + D6 + shoot + 2D6 move? Holy feth balls!! and they are S7 against vehicles and everything i3 and lower? Give me 30.
I think Farseers may be best served not taking the default lore, there are just too many bad powers there. Divination and Telepathy are both great though, I see no reason not to roll on those.
Warlocks need some playtesting imo, the Conceal power is pretty nice. LD8, not so much.
Wraithguard are intreasting, that's for sure. I haven't formed an opinion on them just yet.
The Wraith Knight is really underwhelming. However, Prisims and Nightspinners are awesome.
Warpspiders are Jetbikes are also quite excellent.
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Post by: Ravenous D
Autarchs are pretty much the same, although they pay 10pts for the now useless mandihat
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Post by: Warboss Imbad Ironskull
Ravenous D wrote:
Autarchs are pretty much the same, although they pay 10pts for the now useless mandihat
So no new weapon options or special rules? shame, they're my favorite Eldar unit fluff wise I was really hoping they'd have more options with the new codex
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Post by: Ravenous D
Sasori wrote:
I think Farseers may be best served not taking the default lore, there are just too many bad powers there. Divination and Telepathy are both great though, I see no reason not to roll on those.
Warlocks need some playtesting imo, the Conceal power is pretty nice. LD8, not so much.
Wraithguard are intreasting, that's for sure. I haven't formed an opinion on them just yet.
The Wraith Knight is really underwhelming. However, Prisims and Nightspinners are awesome.
Warpspiders are Jetbikes are also quite excellent.
Its really that Ld8 that kills its, one bad test and your ass in hanging in the wind. Makes it not dependable, and even less dependable if you are going for the other powers, Seems like a seer jet council is the only way to go if you want the things.
I have been tinkering with wraithguard today and the D-scythes are standing out to me, the ability to scare assaulters is pretty nice, the downside is there is lots of weapons that can hurt them.
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Post by: Sasori
Ravenous D wrote: Sasori wrote:
I think Farseers may be best served not taking the default lore, there are just too many bad powers there. Divination and Telepathy are both great though, I see no reason not to roll on those.
Warlocks need some playtesting imo, the Conceal power is pretty nice. LD8, not so much.
Wraithguard are intreasting, that's for sure. I haven't formed an opinion on them just yet.
The Wraith Knight is really underwhelming. However, Prisims and Nightspinners are awesome.
Warpspiders are Jetbikes are also quite excellent.
Its really that Ld8 that kills its, one bad test and your ass in hanging in the wind. Makes it not dependable, and even less dependable if you are going for the other powers, Seems like a seer jet council is the only way to go if you want the things.
I have been tinkering with wraithguard today and the D-scythes are standing out to me, the ability to scare assaulters is pretty nice, the downside is there is lots of weapons that can hurt them.
The LD8, hurts, that's for sure. It's still a 76% to pass, but it can be rough. They have their use in Jetbike squads, for sure.
My main problem with the D-scythe is paying 10 PPM to outfit them with it. You're looking at 50 points minimum for a squad. I don't know if it's worth that many.
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Post by: Ravenous D
Onto other units:
-Phoenix lords: still expensive but pretty awesome now, I thought it was funny you can mix aspects again
-illic Nightspear: Meh, lots of points, dies all the same as the Vindicare assassin.
-Avatar: 5++ but 5 wounds, Ya! 40 extra points, lame. Not bad not great.
-Rangers: Lost the ap1 on hit of 6, 7 points less. Cheap guys to run the aegis basically.
-Guardians: suicide guns and guardsmen armour, good luck.
-Storm Guardians: fighty guardsmen, with no real way to deploy good flamers, bleh
-Dire (douche bag) avengers: still a good go to option, sadly they are a billion dollars each.
-Banshees: fast as hell, but you'll be running in the open so pass.
-Scorpions: Nice, fleet, infiltrate and move through cover built in, a nice harassing unit.
-Fire Dragons: 22pts and 3+ armour, deal. Carrying on.
-Wave serpent: I was originally pissed about this and saw it as a nerf until you realize you were paying the same before and the difference is that you can now take a scatter laser that makes the rest of the guns and wave field twinlinked. That's right 7 TL s6 shots and 2-7 TL s7 shots for 130pts. Not bad at all.
-Falcon: scatter laser, yes please.
-Night spinner: Torrent that is S8 against vehicles? Oh hell yes.
-Fire prism: Base S5 ap3 large blast, awesome.
-Warwalkers: Expensive but very mobile
-Wraithlords: 2 separate brightlances for 160pts, there's your long range anti tank. Eat it wraithknight, you douche.
-Wraithknight: its still crap, douchy douche GW.
-Support battery: Always liked these, still do, just always competing with other stuff.
-Dark Reapers: Plenty of cheaper marine killing and S8 in the rest of the book, they will fill a gap but wont be a jump out unit.
-Swooping hawks: 16 goddamn pts? 3 shot guns? No scatter deepstrike??? You're in my warpspiders slot, try again.
-Shining spears: still trying to play duck hunt, but they are half the points so again, gap filler.
- Warp spiders: seriously buy 10.
-Vypers: competitive spot and fragile, gap filler
-Crimson hunter: All well and good but Im not spaming these and everyone and there mom takes an aegis.
- Hemlock wraithfighter: Same problems as above, I like its boo beams and fry plates but for 185pts? That's gakky.
Oh and Harlequins... no solitaire, basically same as before nothing impressive.
Overall there are lots of strong options in the book. Elites are really light, heavy is crowded as usual, troops are either gooey or hard to deploy and feels like a reason just to take wave serpents. Im disappointed with farseers but with the BS 4 army wide just get guide and go nuts and just hope for doom.
Now if you'll excuse me I have warpspiders to build. Automatically Appended Next Post: Sasori wrote:[
The LD8, hurts, that's for sure. It's still a 76% to pass, but it can be rough. They have their use in Jetbike squads, for sure.
My main problem with the D-scythe is paying 10 PPM to outfit them with it. You're looking at 50 points minimum for a squad. I don't know if it's worth that many.
I agree, Im going to run some proxy games and see if I can make them work, because without battle focus it means you have to get really really close with the wave serpent. Walking them just means people will avoid them, or guard players will just pie plate them into dirt.
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Post by: ZebioLizard2
I am amused by what can and cannot bypass Molten Body on the Avatar
Sure you can't use Breath of Chaos against it, but you can use Firestorm against it! Can't hit with pink and flames of tzeentch, but blue fire is okay!
Can't hit with flickering fire, but Tzeentch's Firestorm works!
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Post by: SoloFalcon1138
Isengard wrote:I may have had the opportunity to peruse a copy...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
This thread will be needed tomorrow that's for sure, just get in early so it can get warmed up!
Isn't this kinda like talking about a classified document? Can we *all* get to see the codex before dissecting it?
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Post by: StarTrotter
ZebioLizard2 wrote:I am amused by what can and cannot bypass Molten Body on the Avatar
Sure you can't use Breath of Chaos against it, but you can use Firestorm against it! Can't hit with pink and flames of tzeentch, but blue fire is okay!
Can't hit with flickering fire, but Tzeentch's Firestorm works!
Truly Tzeentch is doing his job right then  even the flames change whether they can or can't wound the Avatar! (he seems better but I wouldn't call him an autoinclude in the slightest)
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Post by: Sasori
SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Isengard wrote:I may have had the opportunity to peruse a copy...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
This thread will be needed tomorrow that's for sure, just get in early so it can get warmed up!
Isn't this kinda like talking about a classified document? Can we *all* get to see the codex before dissecting it?
Why can't we start a discussion, for those of us that have it?
Feel free to post something constructive when you have it.
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Post by: Kavish
Sasori wrote:
The Warp Hunter is likely going to be my go-to heavy support choice.
What is a Warp Hunter? I have the codex and I can't see it anywhere.
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Post by: Sasori
Kavish wrote: Sasori wrote:
The Warp Hunter is likely going to be my go-to heavy support choice.
What is a Warp Hunter? I have the codex and I can't see it anywhere.
It's a Forgeworld unit.
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Post by: pizzaguardian
Kavish wrote: Sasori wrote:
The Warp Hunter is likely going to be my go-to heavy support choice.
What is a Warp Hunter? I have the codex and I can't see it anywhere.
It is a forgeworld unit so nevermind those imo.
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Post by: Sasori
pizzaguardian wrote: Kavish wrote: Sasori wrote:
The Warp Hunter is likely going to be my go-to heavy support choice.
What is a Warp Hunter? I have the codex and I can't see it anywhere.
It is a forgeworld unit so nevermind those imo.
Nevermind? It's a perfectly acceptable unit, approved for 40k.
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Post by: Kavish
Phoenix gem. That is all.
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Post by: pizzaguardian
Sasori wrote: pizzaguardian wrote: Kavish wrote: Sasori wrote:
The Warp Hunter is likely going to be my go-to heavy support choice.
What is a Warp Hunter? I have the codex and I can't see it anywhere.
It is a forgeworld unit so nevermind those imo.
Nevermind? It's a perfectly acceptable unit, approved for 40k.
It is meta dependent, will not be accepted everywhere and will need an update by FW. But you are correct too, although we are going off topic, leaglity of FW units is discussed in many other threads.
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Post by: R3YNO
I cant look at it until my buddy is done with it. Who's the author of it?
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Post by: Sasori
R3YNO wrote:I cant look at it until my buddy is done with it. Who's the author of it?
Phil Kelly.
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Post by: Eldercaveman
Is the project manager, it would have been written by about 10 different people rules wise, about another 10 different people fluff wise, and then another host of designers and artists
But Kelly will get all the blame/credit
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Post by: Sasori
Eldercaveman wrote:
Is the project manager, it would have been written by about 10 different people rules wise, about another 10 different people fluff wise, and then another host of designers and artists
But Kelly will get all the blame/credit
The PM is responsible for oversight, effective testing, and ensuring the final product is up to standards. So he deserves all the blame/credit.
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Post by: wuestenfux
Wave serpent: I was originally pissed about this and saw it as a nerf until you realize you were paying the same before and the difference is that you can now take a scatter laser that makes the rest of the guns and wave field twinlinked. That's right 7 TL s6 shots and 2-7 TL s7 shots for 130pts. Not bad at all.
-Falcon: scatter laser, yes please.
Could you please elaborate this?
A scatter laser that makes guns and energy(?) field twinlinked?
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Post by: Morachi
<<< Army wide buffs >>>
Battle Focus - Yep, Eldar needed this with their "tricksy" ways. Half way there to the JSJ capabilities the Corsairs employ, but not quite (depending on the unit). I can see this getting alot of units out of sticky situations for sure.
Ancient Doom - Well its only going to be useful against Slaanesh armies really, so let's not get to strung out on that one.
<<< HQ >>>
Avatar - Still a beast, has potential, not too sure on the "abilities" he can choose... especially the Night Fighting one (odd).
Farseer - Got a bit cheaper depending on how you used to run him/her. Runes went down to a "One use only" status, bit sad... however expected. Pretty much cut/paste from the old Codex all said and done.
Spiritseer - This guy is what the Avatar is to a foot slogging Aspect/Guardian army, except focused on Wraithguard. Handy given what he/she can do for Wraith army, who doesn't like "to hit" buffs? Making Wraiths troop choices is pretty nifty as well. Half way between a Farseer and Warlock, a welcome reinvention of the old entry.
Warlocks - Depending on how you run them, they got more expensive, although if you were slapping them on Jetbikes, the cost was much the same (cheaper in some cases). Not sure how I feel about the limitation on them (ie: splitting them out and not having enough for a full council). Again, cut/paste from the old codex with a few amalgamated items.
<<< Troops >>>
Dire Avengers - A little more expensive, they're designed more for defencive capabilities now. While they're certainly not Striking Scorpions, they could definitely find synergy with any of the CC oriented heavy hitters (Scorpions, Spears, CC Wraithguard, etc). Exarchs are required to get the most out of these guys in a defencive situation. Pretty much a take all comers with the exception of 2+ and MCs.
Defender Guardians - Yep, we all wondered if these boys would get any better. In some respects they did, if you intend on swarming them with an Avatar etc - there is potential, however, make no mistake they still suffer the range restriction issues as before. Number are their saviour now, as is the new army wide Battle Focus trick. The second platform at full capacity and BS4 is of course a nice touch.
Storm Guardians - WS/BS buff, the rest is cut/paste with the exception of Power Swords being an option.
Windrider Jetbikes - Saim Hann lovers will be having wet dreams given the nice price drop and bladestorm rules. I can see these being a staple of armies that aren't Wraith heavy, for their points and functionality... its a no brainer.
Rangers - Crazy price drop, but lost some of their punch as a result. Against MC's a few cheap units around the place controlling fire lanes will work wonders though. Count on them annoying the bejesus out of scoring units sitting on objectives.
Pathfinders - Illic is needed for this, honestly, I can't see the justification in almost doubling the cost (for what you get). I'm sure some playing about will find their niche soon enough though.
Wave Serpent - Sadly, whilst it didn't drop in price we did get a rather nasty little gem with laser lock (taking twin linked scatter lasers) and the Serpent sheild. I can see some fliers falling from the heavens with the potential output this APC can now achieve. Some balance was achieved with reduction in weapon costs though, so all in all it balanced out (cut/paste) with a nice addition harking back to the old days. Sadly we didn't get the assault ramp we'd hoped for, which leads me to...
<<< Elites >>>
Howling Banshees - I have a nice little spot for them to wait their turn next edition. Cut/paste again, mixed with sad face.
Striking Scorpions - Yeah these guys got nasty. They make Rangers/Pathfinders look like amateurs in the sneaky department. I've already heard playtest results from friends and they just wreck breakfast for all concerned. What the Scorpion's Claw can do now to the enemy will give them nightmares. The Exarch is a definite requirement. Makes Banshees look like the ugly stepchild.
Fire Dragons - We knew they were undercosted, but probably not by the price point GW have now wacked on them. Given the new Wraith options, I can't see these guys holding up as much on the battlefield - Given they used to be a one hit wonder, Wrathguard in their many forms can survive MUCH better and do the job just as well... and can also be set up as troops. Exarch isn't really needed, unless you want to pay twice the price of a Fire Dragon just for that extra shot, without the wound. We will see how they fare over time.
Harlequins - Cut/paste... nuff said.
Wraithguard - Cheaper, meaner and you can put more in a Wave Serpent now. Whilst the D-Scythe is a bit pricey, the look on a Terminators face will be worth it. Adios 2+. Oh, NO MORE WRAITHSIGHT!
Wraithblades - The ultimate tarpit unit as far as squads go. Nothing says pain like a St7 power weapon and inv save Wraithguard. These guys are the riot control, night club bouncers of the Eldar army.
<<< Fast Attack >>>
Swooping Hawks - Oh my, haven't they done some changes here. Great for reliably dropping behind enemy lines, haywiring a tank into next century then harassing the hell out of T3 critters with low armour saves - aka Guard/Nids etc. All the while, playing "Catch me if you can". Not sure about the Exarch, although Hit and Run is the only power worth taking and "Blind" on the Sunrifle would create a few laughs. Starting to wonder if that will be the Imperial Guard army wide trait?
Warp Spiders - Nasty as ever, a points drop, native hit and run, no real need for an Exarch anymore. The price you pay to upgrade the Exarch could pay for a whole extra member. Twin linking the Dual Spinner was a mistake honestly.
Shining Spears - Half price sale was the objective here it seems, and finally the squad size is half decent! I can see these puppies really taking out MEQ with ease. The Exarch can be tooled to take down IC/MC's with ease and bolt if *&(* gets real. Coupled with Spiders and Jetbikes, Saim Hann Generals will have a field day.
Crimson Hunter - Not sold on this, sure it looks pretty, but as a newcomer to the Eldar's already nifty Air Cavalry, it falls short. Overpriced gimmick really, I can't see it sticking about in the sky long enough to make the points back. The upgrades are a bit pricey too.
Vypers - BS4, price increase, balanced by the drop in cost of weapons. Depending on how you would like to arm them the price can vary a little. They're still going to take up space on your shelf, along side the Banshees.
Hemlock Wraithfighter - Again, overcosted points sink. Great for anti-infantry but honestly too random with regular blasts and dangerously short range. Give me the Phoenix any day over this (even if it is more expensive). Another flyer gimmick.
<<< Heavy Support >>>
Dark Reapers - Welcome to the Over Powered dept, please enjoy your stay. Boosted squad size, move and fire, assorted missiles galore. The Exarch has appropriate powers listed rather than the single obvious "go to" option most Exarchs have access to. Wait for the cries as this becomes the new Starcannon fiasco of 3rd Ed.
Support Batteries - Cut/paste again, slight price variations. With the modifications in weapon stats, we shall see though.
Fire Prism - Lost the "link' capabilties, which was about time - no one likes having to buy two of something just to get intended use from something. New focus shot involving the lance rule, exactly what it needed, yet at a slight price increase.
Night Spinner - Cut/paste, same price, slightly different weapon stats... say hello to the new can opener though, this puppy can hit vehicles at St8 now. Be affraid, this one is versatile.
Falcon - Pretty much cut/paste again, weapon costs came down, Scatter Laser can "laser lock" for a little added help to make those Pulse Laser shots count.
War Walkers - A substantial jump in price, but mitigated by the weapon price drops. Gained a new found maneuverability, which will offset the extra cost. Can also be armed to take down flyers. I still think Wasps have the JSJ down pat though.
Wraithlord - I'm guessing they upped the price to make the Wraithknight look better priced rather than just taking three of these guys. Weapon upgrades are stupidly priced however, essentially a cut/paste with price increase.
Wraithknight - As they say, its not the size that counts, but what you can do with it. The Wraithknight is no exception, alot of points for minimal damage output. Lovely idea, yet poorly executed.
Overall, very much a cut/paste/amend job. Forgeworld still do it better in many cases. I'm actually more curious as to what the IA:11 FAQ will show in the coming months to bring it in line (if that happens). If I do choose a flyer, it will be from FW no GW's range.
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Post by: Vaktathi
Got my book today, been reading it for the last couple of hours.
Overall my impression is that this book follows very much in the vein of Kelly's Chaos Space Marines book. It's an update but in many ways an underwhelming one. What was strong largely remains strong (Eldrad will continue to appear ubiquitously in almost every single Eldar army anyone faces) what was weak will largely remain weak (banshees will still never see the table), a couple units swapped positions and/or were fixed two editions too late (Support batteries will likely see decent use being T7 3+sv artillery units capable of taking S10 AP2 barrage blasts for the cost of a Chimera, while Falcons will likely be completely absent from 6E tables, Wave Serpents will instead be ubiquitous) and a couple new things will prove *Very* capable (Wraithknights and Crimson Hunters).
If you were looking for a reason to break out the banshees, Vypers, Guardians, Harlequins, Night Spinners, Autarchs and the like that didn't entice you before, you won't really find them now. If you were tired of fielding Eldrad, War Walkers, MSU Dire Avengers, guardian jetbikes and the like, well, you're still probably going to be taking them. I haven't looked too much at the warlocks/seer council aspects yet, so I can't comment on them at this moment, but even with new things and a lot of changes to others, fundamentally this list still has the same strengths and weaknesses and flwas the old codex did.
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Post by: Zweischneid
Morachi wrote:
<<< Heavy Support >>>
Dark Reapers - Welcome to the Over Powered dept, please enjoy your stay. Boosted squad size, move and fire, assorted missiles galore. The Exarch has appropriate powers listed rather than the single obvious "go to" option most Exarchs have access to. Wait for the cries as this becomes the new Starcannon fiasco of 3rd Ed.
It's a Kelly Codex after all, and Long Fangs have been losing some of their shine.
The man will not tolerate a spam-free 40K. Goes against his principles!
15930
Post by: I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly
Just concerning the units I have in my (grav-tank-tacular) army:
Dire avengers, like all the infantry, will benefit massively from battle focus and rending shurikens. They also have counter-attack! Up slightly to 13pts/each, which I am happy to pay.
Fire prisms and wave serpents both got a little more expensive but punchier with weapon changes. Falcons probably not worth it in comparison, but not yet sure. Not very experienced with night spinners.
Vypers are better (due to BS4, rending shurikens) for the same cost, brightlances are now affordable. Not sure if that's enough to make them good overall, still fragile for their cost. Definitely better.
Shining spears similar, massive drop in price. Still the exact same weaknesses as before - 1 phase wonders, hit&run, which is necessary, is an upgrade tied to the exarch. But I will try them again.
Fire dragons more expensive but tougher. With cheaper brightlances through the codex, I may try taking them less, and possibly experiment with a big unit rather than disposable squads - for some time I have been aware that the suicide squads depend heavily on your opponent fielding the right targets.
Things I'm excited about:
Rangers have potential as a troops unit, interesting pathfinder option.
Ditto guardians of both types. Will the new battle focus and shuriken be enough to make 9-pt T3 5+sv units worth taking?
Jetbikes are awesome, getting some.
Warlocks have potential, but expensive/unreliable. I will experiment.
Crimson hunter looks like the right stuff, but very fragile.
Aspects like scorpions, dark reapers and warp spiders all look good.
Disappointed in the generally lackluster exarch powers. IMO they should have made exarchs an inbuilt upgrade to encourage taking them (since they're cool). As is, fire dragons certainly and perhaps other aspects just won't find it worth upgrading.
Very interesting new set of vehicle upgrades. Will see if holofields are worth it. Ditto spirit stones (on non-wave serpents). Vectored engines a possible buy for key short-ranged units' transports.
Someone mentioned FW units - I hope they release an update, bringing the corsairs and vehicles into line, sooner rather than later.
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Post by: Morachi
wuestenfux wrote:Wave serpent: I was originally pissed about this and saw it as a nerf until you realize you were paying the same before and the difference is that you can now take a scatter laser that makes the rest of the guns and wave field twinlinked. That's right 7 TL s6 shots and 2-7 TL s7 shots for 130pts. Not bad at all.
-Falcon: scatter laser, yes please.
Could you please elaborate this?
A scatter laser that makes guns and energy(?) field twinlinked?
G'day W, what he means is that Scatter Lasers now have a rule that if you hit with it, then all shots from other weapons (on that unit) become twin linked. The Wave Serpent can discharge its force field as a weapon, at great range and pushing out d6+1 shots (twin linked if used as mentioned). Basically it can theoretically murder all kinds of light armour and air nasties.
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Post by: phoenixrisin
Ravenous D wrote:Just glancing through mine now and Im sure glad I didn't open the wraithknight because that think is crap for 300pts, I'd rather take 2 wraithlords.
besides that:
- Farseers: terrible, I rolled it out a bunch of times and sometimes got Doom fortune, the other powers just blow. I even rolled Eldrad and managed it a few times. If I cant rely on them getting good powers they are a waste of points.
-Warlocks: also terrible, seriously you cant rely on a solid battle plan with these things unless you are getting shrouding, and they cant even join wraithguard!
-Spiritseer: cheaper then I expected but otherwise good, 2 rolls on that table is better then one, still random but its better then nothing.
-Wraithguard/blades: No battle trance is a bummer, but I think having a unit of D scythes will be a combat deterrent unless your enemys want to lose half a unit on the way in. Overall happy with these guys.
-Wraithknight: Waste of points, 280pts for 3 s6 plasma cannon shots? Next.
-Jetbikes: Sweet Jesus, why are the models so bad because these things are busted.
Warpspiders: 6 + 2D6 + D6 + shoot + 2D6 move? Holy feth balls!! and they are S7 against vehicles and everything i3 and lower? Give me 30.
did you really just reduce a monster with 5 S10 attacks at I5 on the charge down to just "3x S6 blasts?". if you're doing it right, those blasts are TL, not to mention reducing a jump infantry monster with the option of taking enough AP2 to melt an entire termie squad a turn...
and honestly, i know the internet thinks the new jet bikes are so  , but you have to realize, they are a 17 point model with a space marine save, the fact that they were nearly double before is just a testament to how bad they were.
7954
Post by: Morachi
phoenixrisin wrote: Ravenous D wrote:Just glancing through mine now and Im sure glad I didn't open the wraithknight because that think is crap for 300pts, I'd rather take 2 wraithlords.
besides that:
- Farseers: terrible, I rolled it out a bunch of times and sometimes got Doom fortune, the other powers just blow. I even rolled Eldrad and managed it a few times. If I cant rely on them getting good powers they are a waste of points.
-Warlocks: also terrible, seriously you cant rely on a solid battle plan with these things unless you are getting shrouding, and they cant even join wraithguard!
-Spiritseer: cheaper then I expected but otherwise good, 2 rolls on that table is better then one, still random but its better then nothing.
-Wraithguard/blades: No battle trance is a bummer, but I think having a unit of D scythes will be a combat deterrent unless your enemys want to lose half a unit on the way in. Overall happy with these guys.
-Wraithknight: Waste of points, 280pts for 3 s6 plasma cannon shots? Next.
-Jetbikes: Sweet Jesus, why are the models so bad because these things are busted.
Warpspiders: 6 + 2D6 + D6 + shoot + 2D6 move? Holy feth balls!! and they are S7 against vehicles and everything i3 and lower? Give me 30.
did you really just reduce a monster with 5 S10 attacks at I5 on the charge down to just "3x S6 blasts?". if you're doing it right, those blasts are TL, not to mention reducing a jump infantry monster with the option of taking enough AP2 to melt an entire termie squad a turn...
and honestly, i know the internet thinks the new jet bikes are so  , but you have to realize, they are a 17 point model with a space marine save, the fact that they were nearly double before is just a testament to how bad they were.
If you TL the shots, you're looking at 320 points. For that, you can get a staggering amount of nasty elsewhere in the Codex. Just to start, the new OP Dark Reapers sling turds in your breakfast in a bad way. Wraithguard with D-Scythes in a Wave Serpent will melt a Terminator squad with very little effort as well, amongst other things. The WK, while it may have its uses, is a gimmick all said and done sadly.
Edit: Just looked at the points cost of my Eldar Lynx super heavy... that thing can lay down the smack and slice half the board in two compared to the WK for the same points cost.
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Post by: Ravenous D
And Adam Troke Automatically Appended Next Post: wuestenfux wrote:Wave serpent: I was originally pissed about this and saw it as a nerf until you realize you were paying the same before and the difference is that you can now take a scatter laser that makes the rest of the guns and wave field twinlinked. That's right 7 TL s6 shots and 2-7 TL s7 shots for 130pts. Not bad at all.
-Falcon: scatter laser, yes please.
Could you please elaborate this?
A scatter laser that makes guns and energy(?) field twinlinked?
Scatter lasers got better for some reason, they now have a rule called laser lock which works like so: Fire scatter laser first, if you hit, all other weapons on the model are twin linked (people seem miss that model part).
Therefor you give your wave serpent a TL scatter laser and a shuriken cannon and you have a death dealing machine, especially when combined with the energy field weapon. Automatically Appended Next Post: phoenixrisin wrote: Ravenous D wrote:Just glancing through mine now and Im sure glad I didn't open the wraithknight because that think is crap for 300pts, I'd rather take 2 wraithlords.
besides that:
- Farseers: terrible, I rolled it out a bunch of times and sometimes got Doom fortune, the other powers just blow. I even rolled Eldrad and managed it a few times. If I cant rely on them getting good powers they are a waste of points.
-Warlocks: also terrible, seriously you cant rely on a solid battle plan with these things unless you are getting shrouding, and they cant even join wraithguard!
-Spiritseer: cheaper then I expected but otherwise good, 2 rolls on that table is better then one, still random but its better then nothing.
-Wraithguard/blades: No battle trance is a bummer, but I think having a unit of D scythes will be a combat deterrent unless your enemys want to lose half a unit on the way in. Overall happy with these guys.
-Wraithknight: Waste of points, 280pts for 3 s6 plasma cannon shots? Next.
-Jetbikes: Sweet Jesus, why are the models so bad because these things are busted.
Warpspiders: 6 + 2D6 + D6 + shoot + 2D6 move? Holy feth balls!! and they are S7 against vehicles and everything i3 and lower? Give me 30.
did you really just reduce a monster with 5 S10 attacks at I5 on the charge down to just "3x S6 blasts?". if you're doing it right, those blasts are TL, not to mention reducing a jump infantry monster with the option of taking enough AP2 to melt an entire termie squad a turn...
and honestly, i know the internet thinks the new jet bikes are so  , but you have to realize, they are a 17 point model with a space marine save, the fact that they were nearly double before is just a testament to how bad they were.
It really is though, at 280pts it better be a lot better then it is, currently a dreadknight can one time it in the face, or better yet, other eldar can tear it apart with shurikens, SHURIKENS!!!
Im not saying the bikes are cheese, they are just really good for their points, and most of the time Eldar have had really bad and squishy troop choices, so having something that can move 12" + 2D6" a turn with the possibility of a 36" turbo boost, is really  ing solid.
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Post by: MandalorynOranj
I wish they'd give Exarchs the SM sergeant treatment and have them come with the squad, it's much fluffier!
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Post by: Gomericus
A question from someone that used to play eldar along time ago,,,back when there were craftworld rules,,,used to love my beil tan,,,anyways...
Any chance the rules to run different craftworlds is back? say things like court of the young king,,,ect?
used to run
Warlocks,,farseer
2 blobs of all male guardians
2 blobs of female guardians
1 blob of male direadvengers
1 of female
2 blobs of firedragons
1 blob of banshees
1 blob of spiders
2 wraithlords,avatar
and a smattering of falcons,wave serpent,based off the WD conversion plans,,,anyone remember those?
and a couple vypers
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Post by: wuestenfux
Morachi wrote: wuestenfux wrote:Wave serpent: I was originally pissed about this and saw it as a nerf until you realize you were paying the same before and the difference is that you can now take a scatter laser that makes the rest of the guns and wave field twinlinked. That's right 7 TL s6 shots and 2-7 TL s7 shots for 130pts. Not bad at all.
-Falcon: scatter laser, yes please.
Could you please elaborate this?
A scatter laser that makes guns and energy(?) field twinlinked?
G'day W, what he means is that Scatter Lasers now have a rule that if you hit with it, then all shots from other weapons (on that unit) become twin linked. The Wave Serpent can discharge its force field as a weapon, at great range and pushing out d6+1 shots (twin linked if used as mentioned). Basically it can theoretically murder all kinds of light armour and air nasties.
Thanks M, now I got it. Looks very promising to use scatter lasers and shuricannons in concert. Automatically Appended Next Post: Gomericus wrote:A question from someone that used to play eldar along time ago,,,back when there were craftworld rules,,,used to love my beil tan,,,anyways...
Any chance the rules to run different craftworlds is back? say things like court of the young king,,,ect?
As an Eldar player knowing what you mean, the answer is no. Craftworld armies are left to the player as ''do it yourself''.
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Post by: MandalorynOranj
Gomericus wrote:A question from someone that used to play eldar along time ago,,,back when there were craftworld rules,,,used to love my beil tan,,,anyways...
Any chance the rules to run different craftworlds is back? say things like court of the young king,,,ect?
used to run
Warlocks,,farseer
2 blobs of all male guardians
2 blobs of female guardians
1 blob of male direadvengers
1 of female
2 blobs of firedragons
1 blob of banshees
1 blob of spiders
2 wraithlords,avatar
and a smattering of falcons,wave serpent,based off the WD conversion plans,,,anyone remember those?
and a couple vypers
There's no Craftworld-specific rules, but that list looks mostly doable at high point levels. You may need the double force org provided at 2k since, assuming "a smattering" is more than one you have too many Heavy Support, but given the points that could be a legal list. Unfortunately, you'll want to avoid the Banshees as they kind of suck.
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Post by: I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly
MandalorynOranj wrote:I wish they'd give Exarchs the SM sergeant treatment and have them come with the squad, it's much fluffier!
Definitely. As it is, I think probably more than half the exarch options are simply not worth taking. 10pts for the ws/ bs/i and maybe armour boost. Then 5-15 for a single weapon upgrade or power. So at that point you could more than buy another squad member. Really loading up an exarch gets ridiculous, and most of their powers are minor boosts to their own power, not unit buffs. I mean how is it +10 pts to give a 2-attack character in a non-assault unit +1S? Most of the exarch powers are real points to get tiny changes to efficiency.
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Post by: Ravenous D
Just noticed the scorpions claw is not unweildly.... damn.
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Post by: bahzakhain
They don't have it yet at my FLGS, curse GW logistics!
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Post by: ClassicCarraway
Just from what I've seen, this codex seems to have some decent balance in some respects. The really powerful units are suitably expensive in order to prevent spamming, and the cheaper units have some really nice buffs that makes taking them, and more importantly finding effective ways to use them, more appealing.
Now for the scary part (for non-Eldar players anyway). The sheer amount of ranged AP2 or better is crazy. The Scorpions claw not being unwieldy makes Striking Scorpions an auto-include. People that say the WK is overcosted apparently didn't read the battle report from the last WD. The suncannon/scatter laser combo can easily wipe out a squad per turn, and with a T8, 6 wounds, and a 3+/5++ save, you have a very survivable unit that is generally going to get your points back pretty quickly. Warpspiders, which were already good, got so much better and got cheaper. Monofilimant makes them S7 against non-walker vehicles, and grants psuedo-Rending.
Basically, the entire army is a big middle finger to MEQ/TEQ armies, but also is pretty potent against MC heavy armies as well, with all the auto wound and high strength ranged weapons.
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Post by: Experiment 626
ClassicCarraway wrote:Just from what I've seen, this codex seems to have some decent balance in some respects. The really powerful units are suitably expensive in order to prevent spamming, and the cheaper units have some really nice buffs that makes taking them, and more importantly finding effective ways to use them, more appealing.
Now for the scary part (for non-Eldar players anyway). The sheer amount of ranged AP2 or better is crazy. The Scorpions claw not being unwieldy makes Striking Scorpions an auto-include. People that say the WK is overcosted apparently didn't read the battle report from the last WD. The suncannon/scatter laser combo can easily wipe out a squad per turn, and with a T8, 6 wounds, and a 3+/5++ save, you have a very survivable unit that is generally going to get your points back pretty quickly. Warpspiders, which were already good, got so much better and got cheaper. Monofilimant makes them S7 against non-walker vehicles, and grants psuedo-Rending.
Basically, the entire army is a big middle finger to MEQ/ TEQ armies, but also is pretty potent against MC heavy armies as well, with all the auto wound and high strength ranged weapons.
Generally speaking though, Eldar have always been a massive middle finger to Space Marines.
On the other hand, I think the only army that's actually squishier than Eldar are the Dark Eldar. So sure, while they can delete whole MEQ/ TEQ squads piecemeal, if they do get hit in return they'll fall flat like the little girls they are!
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Post by: wuestenfux
Experiment 626 wrote: ClassicCarraway wrote:Just from what I've seen, this codex seems to have some decent balance in some respects. The really powerful units are suitably expensive in order to prevent spamming, and the cheaper units have some really nice buffs that makes taking them, and more importantly finding effective ways to use them, more appealing.
Now for the scary part (for non-Eldar players anyway). The sheer amount of ranged AP2 or better is crazy. The Scorpions claw not being unwieldy makes Striking Scorpions an auto-include. People that say the WK is overcosted apparently didn't read the battle report from the last WD. The suncannon/scatter laser combo can easily wipe out a squad per turn, and with a T8, 6 wounds, and a 3+/5++ save, you have a very survivable unit that is generally going to get your points back pretty quickly. Warpspiders, which were already good, got so much better and got cheaper. Monofilimant makes them S7 against non-walker vehicles, and grants psuedo-Rending.
Basically, the entire army is a big middle finger to MEQ/ TEQ armies, but also is pretty potent against MC heavy armies as well, with all the auto wound and high strength ranged weapons.
Generally speaking though, Eldar have always been a massive middle finger to Space Marines.
On the other hand, I think the only army that's actually squishier than Eldar are the Dark Eldar. So sure, while they can delete whole MEQ/ TEQ squads piecemeal, if they do get hit in return they'll fall flat like the little girls they are!
Eldar can be quite survivable. Think about ''speed is their armor''. Serpents are playable again. Iyanden is very durable. Some combos can improve survivabilty. In toto, I think that Eldar ist quite playable in the new edition.
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Post by: Ravenous D
Another fun rule I found, Illic joins 10 d-scythe wraithguard and deploys 1" away from the enemy. Go ahead and charge that, or don't and die even worse.
57815
Post by: Ferrum_Sanguinis
Now that wraithguard/blades can be taken as troops without having to be the maximum squad size, I see a lot of potential for a wraith army, since you can now stick them in transports and have them were they need to be by turn 3 at the latest. Also, 10 wraithblades with Forceshields and Ghost-axes babysat by a spiritseer that manages to get the protect and conceal powers are going to be impossible to shift from an objective. And if a Farseer manages to cast Fortune on them...
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Post by: shamikebab
I can't help but feel that will be FAQ'd out, it's ridiculously unfluffy, ridiculously powerful and it just feels like they haven't really thought it through.
5859
Post by: Ravenous D
Im sure it will be FAQ'd to read "unit of patherfinders/rangers".
Because as is you can infiltrate a unit right in front of some so close that they cant use template weapons. Mwahahahahaha.
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Post by: Overlord Zerrtin
I don't see why they would FAQ it his cover boosts to the unit right? 2+ cover wraithguard first turn in some shrubs behind that one dangerous tank/ super unit every codex has!
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Post by: Ravenous D
Its more that he can infiltrate them 1" away from the enemy.
Charging the unit is suicide and shooting at it with a 3+ cover save just isn't good. So you are basically going to take D-scythes to the face.
Ally with baron so you have a 70% chance of going first.
23036
Post by: L0rdF1end
Ravenous D wrote:Another fun rule I found, Illic joins 10 d-scythe wraithguard and deploys 1" away from the enemy. Go ahead and charge that, or don't and die even worse.
This doesn't work, Illic has Infiltrate, only in the deployment phase does he grant Infiltrate to any unit he joins, at this stage (you've already attached him to a unit and deployed) you can no longer infiltrate.
You can however choose to keep the unit in reserves and Outflank.
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Post by: Ravenous D
Its the same as shrike, it works.
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Post by: Farseer_Kaiser
It does work (IC joins squad at deployment in reserve, squad infiltrates at the beginning of turn 1, thats how it works). Also, Karandras offers the same opportunity (albeit without the point-blank infiltrate). Good catch on Baron btw, makes the combo even more dirty.
There does seem to be a load of these tricks hidden in the book, took some time to get over the WTF I CAN'T SPAM FORTUNE TO WIN to realise that there is a lot more finesse to the new book that forcing insane durability on a deathstar.
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Post by: jcress410
the heavy weapons platform being a model (with a profile) is kind of a nerf for guardians.. can be targeted by precision shots, removed due to closest model wound allocation, et cetera.
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Post by: elphilo
Farseer_Kaiser wrote:It does work ( IC joins squad at deployment in reserve, squad infiltrates at the beginning of turn 1, thats how it works).
Infiltrate is done at the end of deployment before scouts are done. So it actually doesn't work unless GW specifically FAQs saying an IC can join and then that squad can infiltrate.
5859
Post by: Ravenous D
Farseer_Kaiser wrote:It does work ( IC joins squad at deployment in reserve, squad infiltrates at the beginning of turn 1, thats how it works). Also, Karandras offers the same opportunity (albeit without the point-blank infiltrate). Good catch on Baron btw, makes the combo even more dirty.
There does seem to be a load of these tricks hidden in the book, took some time to get over the WTF I CAN'T SPAM FORTUNE TO WIN to realise that there is a lot more finesse to the new book that forcing insane durability on a deathstar.
That's really it, so many people are butt hurt over the psychic powers getting nerfed they don't realize that you get powers and abilities for free built in, scatter lasers are awesome examples of this. I was debating getting a farseer with guide and the divination primis power for "double guide" but I noticed most of my list rerolls its hits anyway and the BS4 makes it pretty redundant. The illic bomb wont be popular but its fun to bust out at least once. Automatically Appended Next Post: elphilo wrote: Farseer_Kaiser wrote:It does work ( IC joins squad at deployment in reserve, squad infiltrates at the beginning of turn 1, thats how it works).
Infiltrate is done at the end of deployment before scouts are done. So it actually doesn't work unless GW specifically FAQs saying an IC can join and then that squad can infiltrate.
Explain how shrike does it then.
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Post by: Massaen
The FAQ gives shrike explicit permission to do it. That said, it also implies that characters join units prior to deployment
29914
Post by: martin74
I like the idea ofa ten man ranger group plus the HQ guy who gives them a great buff (when you spend the points. Just a fun ally group.
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Post by: Ravenous D
Exactly, and the infiltrator rules says "Units that contain at least one model with this special rule"
Why the hell would they write that if it wasn't meant to pass to the unit?
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Post by: Massaen
Anyone notice that pathfinders have shrouded and stealth while nightspear - their supposed leader - has no stealth?
30766
Post by: Da Butcha
Not looking at the Codex from a 'relative power' viewpoint, but from a 'makes sense in the fluff' perspective, I feel that it is really poorly thought out.
Spiritseers make Wraithguard and Wraithblades Troops. OK, good, so far. This allows you to field an Iyanden-themed army, but then Wraithlords and Wraithknights both remain Heavy Support, so Iyanden armies have the same level of access to Wraithlords and Wraithknights as every other Craftworld?
Phoenix Lords don't affect the force organization, so a Phoenix lord showing up in a battle doesn't in any way increase the total number of Aspect Warriors from his shrine that show up?
Eldar Missile Launchers now have ammunition to target fliers, but almost all units which can take EML can't take that ammunition.
Banshees are an acrobatic Aspect focused on decisive melee assaults at speed. They aren't equipped with grenades, so their vaunted speed disappears when assaulting units in cover.
Eldar Warlocks and Farseers walk a Path for years, decades, or centuries, developing and honing their psychic abilities. Farseers view the future and intervene in pivotal battles which turn the tide of fate to protect the Eldar. They all randomly generate their psychic powers, so the precognitive Eldar don't know what psychics will be present in the army until deployment.
Wraithguard, Wraithblades, and Wraithlords do not see as mortals do, and in fact, aren't even equipped with eyes or visual sensors, but instead, view the shifting warp energies around us. They are still blinded by the bright flashes of light generated by Wraithknight shields.
Wraithlords have a wide variety of weapon systems available to be mounted on their chassis. Wraithknights, the elite, rare, exceptional wraith construct, have significantly less options.
Game balance and properly designed codexes are important (no matter what GW thinks), but your rules need to reflect the 'reality' you want to present. Balance the stuff through points costs and force organization limitations, but for all that's holy, if something should work a particular way, make sure it works that way. If something makes sense, then make sure it happens in game. Dumb little stuff like this makes Warhammer 40,000 much less interesting as a shared universe, and much more like a really expensive, really poorly balanced board game.
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Post by: Hubert1246
I might be one of the few people to say this but I enjoyed my WraithKnihgt [Paco be his name] He managed to wreck a riptide which was awesome and even then managed to kill MORE Tau because they decided to camp in the back.
Also weapons- Sweet warhost of Khaine while the necrons can say "Our most basic gun can kill your most complicated tank." The Eldar can say "Our most basic of guns can kill your best troops."
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Post by: -Loki-
Da Butcha wrote:Spiritseers make Wraithguard and Wraithblades Troops. OK, good, so far. This allows you to field an Iyanden-themed army, but then Wraithlords and Wraithknights both remain Heavy Support, so Iyanden armies have the same level of access to Wraithlords and Wraithknights as every other Craftworld?
Iyanden supplement.
Da Butcha wrote:Phoenix Lords don't affect the force organization, so a Phoenix lord showing up in a battle doesn't in any way increase the total number of Aspect Warriors from his shrine that show up?
Biel Tan supplement. Guaranteed.
Da Butcha wrote:Banshees are an acrobatic Aspect focused on decisive melee assaults at speed. They aren't equipped with grenades, so their vaunted speed disappears when assaulting units in cover.
Not uncommon from GW lately. Tyranids have some of the most ferocious melee troops in the game and almost army wide lack assault grenades. Seems GW wants melee specialists to still have some situational issues with melee.
Da Butcha wrote:Eldar Warlocks and Farseers walk a Path for years, decades, or centuries, developing and honing their psychic abilities. Farseers view the future and intervene in pivotal battles which turn the tide of fate to protect the Eldar. They all randomly generate their psychic powers, so the precognitive Eldar don't know what psychics will be present in the army until deployment.
So does every army in the game. Deal with it.
Da Butcha wrote:Wraithlords have a wide variety of weapon systems available to be mounted on their chassis. Wraithknights, the elite, rare, exceptional wraith construct, have significantly less options.
It's almost as if they're different units!
Da Butcha wrote:Game balance and properly designed codexes are important (no matter what GW thinks), but your rules need to reflect the 'reality' you want to present. Balance the stuff through points costs and force organization limitations, but for all that's holy, if something should work a particular way, make sure it works that way. If something makes sense, then make sure it happens in game. Dumb little stuff like this makes Warhammer 40,000 much less interesting as a shared universe, and much more like a really expensive, really poorly balanced board game.
You're missing Supplements from your conclusion. GW don't want to give you all of the potential army lists in the codex, they want to sell you supplements that let you make those alternate armies.
62226
Post by: Glocknall
Sasori wrote: Ravenous D wrote:Just glancing through mine now and Im sure glad I didn't open the wraithknight because that think is crap for 300pts, I'd rather take 2 wraithlords.
besides that:
- Farseers: terrible, I rolled it out a bunch of times and sometimes got Doom fortune, the other powers just blow. I even rolled Eldrad and managed it a few times. If I cant rely on them getting good powers they are a waste of points.
-Warlocks: also terrible, seriously you cant rely on a solid battle plan with these things unless you are getting shrouding, and they cant even join wraithguard!
-Spiritseer: cheaper then I expected but otherwise good, 2 rolls on that table is better then one, still random but its better then nothing.
-Wraithguard/blades: No battle trance is a bummer, but I think having a unit of D scythes will be a combat deterrent unless your enemys want to lose half a unit on the way in. Overall happy with these guys.
-Wraithknight: Waste of points, 280pts for 3 s6 plasma cannon shots? Next.
-Jetbikes: Sweet Jesus, why are the models so bad because these things are busted.
Warpspiders: 6 + 2D6 + D6 + shoot + 2D6 move? Holy feth balls!! and they are S7 against vehicles and everything i3 and lower? Give me 30.
I think Farseers may be best served not taking the default lore, there are just too many bad powers there. Divination and Telepathy are both great though, I see no reason not to roll on those.
I think ideally you have the Farseer roll at least once on the RoF table to try and get Fortune. If not Guide then take your rolls on the BRB.
Actually its 6 plasma cannon shots. Considering that a Plasma Sponson Leman Russ Executioner only gets 5 for 240 and can Gets Hot!, it actually isnt such a bad buy. Also the Wraithknight will easily tower over an ADL or other low terrain negating cover.
Warlocks role has changed for certain but you can always take your roll and then default to conceal. I think Warlocks are a lot better than people think.
74281
Post by: EBombPrime
I can see why some are happy with the codex and others are not. I'd bet most Saim-Hann and Iyanden players are happy with it. I'm not so happy. My favorite unit, the foot seer council, got ruined. The combination of random powers, casting off Ld 8, insta-death perils, and no wave serpent option makes them a very poor use of points. Leadership 8 really? In their own description it says they were aspect warriors ( Ld 9) who develop their psychic powers and become leaders in the military. If anything, it should go up from Ld 9.
I think warlocks can still be very powerful on bikes but I hate the jetbike models and I don't want to ruin my foot warlocks to make them. I refuse to buy the current bikes which are unfortunately the unit the probably got the best buff.
It seems the book is full of missed opportunities too. Swooping Hawks being able to attack flyers in some way. Banshee masks stopping overwatch. Exarch powers on Autarchs. Missile launchers getting flakk on more than just walkers. No way to have an assault vehicle. No shifts in the organization chart.
There are a few WTF things in there also. Nightvision and precision shot as upgrades for the Avatar? Crushing Blow for the Fire Dragon exarch? Runes of Warding? Banshees not being able to assault into cover at initiative? Some of the point costs (Autarch)?
I have to admit that some of the stuff is cool though. The way Warp spiders move now. The lance option on the fire prism. Swooping hawks not scattering. The madiblasters, even though it isn't as strong. Laser lock on scatter lasers. War walkers are still great. Vypers are better than they were. Cheaper star cannons and bright lances.
It's going to take some time for me to get used to. I play my first game with the codex tomorrow. I'm using a slightly modified list that I've used a few times before against this friend, both games were very close. I'm curious to see how well it works against him.
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Post by: Sasori
Ravenous D wrote:Exactly, and the infiltrator rules says "Units that contain at least one model with this special rule"
Why the hell would they write that if it wasn't meant to pass to the unit?
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/530974.page
Here is a YMDC thread about it.
As of now, RAW you cannot Use Illics rule to infiltrate anyone, that does not already have the infiltrate rule. Feel free to hash it out there.
32205
Post by: Warboss Imbad Ironskull
How exactly does the laser lock rule work? I'm curious as to if it would work with battle brother allies.
69483
Post by: shamikebab
Can you split Psyker rolls between different disciplines? I thought you couldn't but I've seen several people mention it.
Regarding Laserlock, you fire that weapon first. if it hits, any other shooting attacks by THAT MODEL re-roll to hit. It's not useful for most things.
32205
Post by: Warboss Imbad Ironskull
shamikebab wrote:
Regarding Laserlock, you fire that weapon first. if it hits, any other shooting attacks by THAT MODEL re-roll to hit. It's not useful for most things.
Yeah I just found this out on a different site. Shame I was hoping to use it with my Tau
29408
Post by: Melissia
Seems cool enough. More interested in it than I am in whatever variety of marines came before it at any rate (was it spiky marines, or emo marines? I forgot).. Though I can't say whether or not it's balanced or not, I'm no veteran Eldar player.
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Post by: Isengard
I think it is pretty balanced overall. I was worried that Eldar would just morph into Tau-lite with longer range weapons, etc.
I was surprised and generally pleased by the fixes they used for the shooting issues of the Eldar, which IMHO were that pre new dex they lacked firepower in 6th ed. Cheaper heavy weapons and increasing all Eldar BS to 4 was a surprise, as they haven't done much with stat lines in 6th. The bladestorm change to shuriken weapons was not the insta-fix range increase that I expected. It is more interesting and more subtle. Still short range but also with a potentially deadly power. Assault Eldar at your peril and not by simply cloning the Tau support fire thing.
I'm not sure they properly addressed the assault issue. Eldar assault troops are still fundamentally likely to get shot to pieces before they get into range. Even using the uprated wave serpent they still have to weather a turn of shooting and overwatch before they hit. Banshees still look a poor investment although scorpions are much better.
I like the flyers, they are not like other race's flyers which is good.
For me the required buff of all was to raise the guardians from the level of utter chaff to make them decent and also to make Eldar vehicles realistically capable, BS3 on the most advanced race in the galaxy made no sense. Now guardians are ok and can effectively act as objective holders or in other roles.
I think falcons might even have a role now, what with scatter laser lock at 50/50 followed by pulse laser and shuirken cannon shots with a squad of scoprions or dragons inside. Might be worth it.
Overall I am happy with it. It fills the crucial gaps, although I do think they were mean on who can take flakk, only walkers and reaper exarchs seems very tight, guardians surely could have had this since DA tac squads do. However, the flyers are cool and there are plenty of choices in all parts of the FOC.
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Post by: gpfunk
I'd planned on trying to build and use a TEQ GK army, but after hearing about some of the rules I suppose I'll have to shelve that idea. They keep devaluing terminators, I think. There's going to reach a point where there's too much readily available AP2 or Pseudo-Rending that they won't be worth their points. I'll be interested to see how I fair against them with PA heavy CSM. I'm going to guess "not good" at least for the first couple rounds.
Eldar needed an update bad. Enjoy it.
I also heard no more runes of warding. Yay!
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Post by: milo
I truly believe that in the next Eldar FAQ, they will say a "misprint" occurred and that Banshees have plasma grenades. It costs two points and AP3 to upgrade from a Banshee to a Scorpion. When charging into cover, the Scorpion will probably strike at the same time or sooner than the Banshee would, is +1 ST, gets the Mandiblaster attack, and also has Stealth, Infiltrate and a 3+ armor save, not to mention the nifty weapons. (And did anyone else notice that the reference table lists Chainblades as having the same shooting profile as a ShuriCatapult?) It just doesn't make sense to price them that way when the Scorpions are so much better.
It's a good but not great codex. They did give the army a boost but the ways in which they did it are real headscratchers. I think they could have implemented more logical changes that would have boosted the army similarly but been more in keeping with the fluff.
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Post by: -Loki-
This seems to be a 6th edition theme. Looks like they're going for good books, but nothing on the level of Necrons or Guard or Wolves.
Which is fine by me.
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Post by: Farseer Faenyin
All in all, I have to say I am a little sad with the missed opportunities with the Codex. Zero Interceptor. We can forsee the future but can't forsee a flyer heading our way like the other races can? Bleh.
Just one example...there are others like Banshees, Autarchs, and Wraithknight.
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Post by: majendie
So - Illic may not be able to, with RAW, (unless they FAQ that like some other units), infiltrate some Wraithblades, but he CAN join a unit of Scorpions with Karandras and take them along with him...
TBO, I'm surprised they gave super-infiltrate to the sniper character. Who wants to dump a bunch of expensive Pathfinders right up against the enemy? They're snipers. They don't need it. If they gave super-infiltrate to Karandras, or regular infiltrate but allowed charging first turn... Much better with the fluff, and much more useful. I often find it difficult to get my scorpions into the action without having to run up under fire for at least one turn...
I love that war walkers got a 5++, as they were always insanely squishy and are now slightly less so. The Battle Focus for them is nice as well, since they can duck back under cover after firing. I'm wondering if it's now worth taking them with say a SL and a BL, since they can then twin-link the big hitter...
I'm waiting for the FAQ to come out clarifying Fuegan's fancy trick... For those who haven't seen it - when he takes a wound (which with 2+ and FNP is fairly rare anyway) he gains +1S and A, which the rule states lasts for the rest of the game. With a Warlock and Renewer, you can heal that wound he lost, meaning theoretically you could stack him up to fairly ridiculous stats just by letting him take a wound and healing it...
Something I want to try - Farseer on jetbike with Death Mission and Phoenix Gem... Crazy insane stats (+5WS/BS/I, +2A, Fearless, Rampage), 3+/4++, T4, explodes when he dies... (and maybe doesn't die when he does) Hit the panic button and point him at the enemy warlord...
Also, as an aside - with some rough math you can see that Death Mission should statistically never drop off (on average you should be gaining about .9 of a counter per turn)...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, did anyone else notice that Harlequins don't get Battle Focus? Seems weird, and a shame.
Aaaaand another also - if you give a character the Mantle of the Laughing God (loses IC, gains Hit and Run, Stealth, Shrouded) - what kind of unit type do they become? Infantry (Character)? Could be fun if you were running someone like Karandras without a squad of Scorpions along for the ride...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aaaaaaaand one more - I think the Wraithknight is kind of awesome. Giving him 4 guns does seem a bit weird but I'm thinking the best loadout is Suncannon + Shield, Shuriken Cannon and Scatter Laser. So you get to TL the Suncannon in normal shooting, and TL the Shuriken Cannon in overwatch, and you get the 5++ with Blind.
He's a massive, scary unit. Going to be very hard to hide from him just about anywhere on the table. Sure he can be Instant-Deathed but he's going to be a lot harder to kill than just about anything else on the table.
I'd love to get a Farseer or Autarch with Falchu's Wing (48" run) and Seer of the Shifting Vector (no deep strike scatter within 6") - run the HQ right into the middle of your enemy and Deep Strike the Wraithknight and some Spiders right down on top of him (then run away again next turn).
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Post by: Phazael
Had a big long rant from 14 years of built up nerd rage of every marine whine causing the army to be repeatedly nerfed, but let me sum this up in five thoughts:
1) Codex Wraiths is a workable book. Codex Eldar is an unplayable mess.
2) The most powerful Psykers in the galaxy are not dependant on randomly rolling the correct power and passing a LD8 test in most cases. They also have no psykic defense.
3) Guardians could be armed with meltaguns and it still would not fix the issue of them being bolter bait with a short range gun. In fact, every single unit that was weak in the prior two (or more books) either had some failed attempt to fix them or just flat out got nerfed/price hiked. Honestly, did anyone think that the Avatar needed a 35 point price hike and reduction of Invul save, even when you could assure getting fortune?
4) Phail Kelly finally outdid his Beastmen book, in terms of giving zero care to the army and brainless options. Case in point, three units in the book getting nightvision (the avatar even pays for it) while being limited to 12" guns, Banshee masks being pointless without the grenades to go with them, the non-IC sniper that can infiltrate 1" away from the enemy, the LD9 psyker with less gear and options than a Dark Angel or Chaos equivalent who costs more, the option for +1 STR attacks on a S10 MC, and on and on....
5) If it was on the list of things that marine players whine and cry about, it got nerfed. Runes of Anything? Check. Halequins? Check. S10 Wraithlords? Check. Fire Dragons? Check. Meltaproof Wave Serpents? Check. Autarch Reserve stacking? Check. reliable Fortune or Doom? Check and Check. Destructor Jetbike spam? Check. Eldrad got nerfed, too. Hell even the pirate prince took it in the pooper in this book. This should surprise me, but every book since the Eldar debuted has been a giant nerf loaded love letter to MEQ books.
As an Iyanden player, I will enjoy the giant (yet overpriced) Knights, though they will die horribly to anything half their cost in close combat, even with the shield. As a Saim Han player, I still have my bikes and the overall cost of the units means my army remains largely unaltered, though I like will not bother with a farseer in what was already a soft theme army. As a general and Beil Tan player, I lament the nerds to already underused units and the squandered opportunities. I didn't really use psykers much beyond the occasional lone fortune monkey Bike Farseer, but I can understand the larger Eldar community's rage at the massive overnerf.
Once I paint up a couple knights, the 14k of Eldar I own will go right back on the shelf, unless my Tau need some wraith allies....
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Post by: ZebioLizard2
the option for +1 STR attacks on a S10 MC,
You don't have to smash every turn you know, since it reduces your attacks.
5) If it was on the list of things that marine players whine and cry about, it got nerfed. Runes of Anything? Check. Halequins? Check. S10 Wraithlords? Check. Fire Dragons? Check. Meltaproof Wave Serpents? Check. Autarch Reserve stacking? Check. reliable Fortune or Doom? Check and Check. Destructor Jetbike spam? Check. Eldrad got nerfed, too. Hell even the pirate prince took it in the pooper in this book. This should surprise me, but every book since the Eldar debuted has been a giant nerf loaded love letter to MEQ books.
Considering that MEQ lost their mapwide hood, I guess it should be mentioned.
Firedragons gained a 3+ save, and still are far cheaper then the MEQ equivalent with a meltagun Check
Melta isn't the hot thing since 5th edition, I thought you'd be complaining more about holo-fields.
Every book is getting random powers, simply deal with it.
70436
Post by: D6Damager
They gained a lot of offense especially with the changes to shuriken weapons. Proper use of Battle Focus will be HUGE in determining their success.
They lost a lot defense through the reworking of their psychic abilities and wargear.
15930
Post by: I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly
Phazael wrote:Had a big long rant from 14 years of built up nerd rage of every marine whine causing the army to be repeatedly nerfed, but let me sum this up in five thoughts:
1) Codex Wraiths is a workable book. Codex Eldar is an unplayable mess.
2) The most powerful Psykers in the galaxy are not dependant on randomly rolling the correct power and passing a LD8 test in most cases. They also have no psykic defense.
3) Guardians could be armed with meltaguns and it still would not fix the issue of them being bolter bait with a short range gun. In fact, every single unit that was weak in the prior two (or more books) either had some failed attempt to fix them or just flat out got nerfed/price hiked. Honestly, did anyone think that the Avatar needed a 35 point price hike and reduction of Invul save, even when you could assure getting fortune?
4) Phail Kelly finally outdid his Beastmen book, in terms of giving zero care to the army and brainless options. Case in point, three units in the book getting nightvision (the avatar even pays for it) while being limited to 12" guns, Banshee masks being pointless without the grenades to go with them, the non- IC sniper that can infiltrate 1" away from the enemy, the LD9 psyker with less gear and options than a Dark Angel or Chaos equivalent who costs more, the option for +1 STR attacks on a S10 MC, and on and on....
5) If it was on the list of things that marine players whine and cry about, it got nerfed. Runes of Anything? Check. Halequins? Check. S10 Wraithlords? Check. Fire Dragons? Check. Meltaproof Wave Serpents? Check. Autarch Reserve stacking? Check. reliable Fortune or Doom? Check and Check. Destructor Jetbike spam? Check. Eldrad got nerfed, too. Hell even the pirate prince took it in the pooper in this book. This should surprise me, but every book since the Eldar debuted has been a giant nerf loaded love letter to MEQ books.
As an Iyanden player, I will enjoy the giant (yet overpriced) Knights, though they will die horribly to anything half their cost in close combat, even with the shield. As a Saim Han player, I still have my bikes and the overall cost of the units means my army remains largely unaltered, though I like will not bother with a farseer in what was already a soft theme army. As a general and Beil Tan player, I lament the nerds to already underused units and the squandered opportunities. I didn't really use psykers much beyond the occasional lone fortune monkey Bike Farseer, but I can understand the larger Eldar community's rage at the massive overnerf.
Once I paint up a couple knights, the 14k of Eldar I own will go right back on the shelf, unless my Tau need some wraith allies....
Loads of other people on the internet, many of them eldar players, see the firepower upgrades, cool new rules, price breaks, BS4 etc and feel quite excited about the new options and possibilities. You see only the negative changes. I do not see any 'larger Eldar community's rage' and I have to wonder at this sort of joyless, bitter approach to the game.
47547
Post by: CthuluIsSpy
I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote: Phazael wrote:Had a big long rant from 14 years of built up nerd rage of every marine whine causing the army to be repeatedly nerfed, but let me sum this up in five thoughts:
1) Codex Wraiths is a workable book. Codex Eldar is an unplayable mess.
2) The most powerful Psykers in the galaxy are not dependant on randomly rolling the correct power and passing a LD8 test in most cases. They also have no psykic defense.
3) Guardians could be armed with meltaguns and it still would not fix the issue of them being bolter bait with a short range gun. In fact, every single unit that was weak in the prior two (or more books) either had some failed attempt to fix them or just flat out got nerfed/price hiked. Honestly, did anyone think that the Avatar needed a 35 point price hike and reduction of Invul save, even when you could assure getting fortune?
4) Phail Kelly finally outdid his Beastmen book, in terms of giving zero care to the army and brainless options. Case in point, three units in the book getting nightvision (the avatar even pays for it) while being limited to 12" guns, Banshee masks being pointless without the grenades to go with them, the non- IC sniper that can infiltrate 1" away from the enemy, the LD9 psyker with less gear and options than a Dark Angel or Chaos equivalent who costs more, the option for +1 STR attacks on a S10 MC, and on and on....
5) If it was on the list of things that marine players whine and cry about, it got nerfed. Runes of Anything? Check. Halequins? Check. S10 Wraithlords? Check. Fire Dragons? Check. Meltaproof Wave Serpents? Check. Autarch Reserve stacking? Check. reliable Fortune or Doom? Check and Check. Destructor Jetbike spam? Check. Eldrad got nerfed, too. Hell even the pirate prince took it in the pooper in this book. This should surprise me, but every book since the Eldar debuted has been a giant nerf loaded love letter to MEQ books.
As an Iyanden player, I will enjoy the giant (yet overpriced) Knights, though they will die horribly to anything half their cost in close combat, even with the shield. As a Saim Han player, I still have my bikes and the overall cost of the units means my army remains largely unaltered, though I like will not bother with a farseer in what was already a soft theme army. As a general and Beil Tan player, I lament the nerds to already underused units and the squandered opportunities. I didn't really use psykers much beyond the occasional lone fortune monkey Bike Farseer, but I can understand the larger Eldar community's rage at the massive overnerf.
Once I paint up a couple knights, the 14k of Eldar I own will go right back on the shelf, unless my Tau need some wraith allies....
Loads of other people on the internet, many of them eldar players, see the firepower upgrades, cool new rules, price breaks, BS4 etc and feel quite excited about the new options and possibilities. You see only the negative changes. I do not see any 'larger Eldar community's rage' and I have to wonder at this sort of joyless, bitter approach to the game.
It happens after every new release. During the necron release, the forum was full of threads whining about how the necrons were nerfed and ruined.
59036
Post by: phoenixrisin
Morachi wrote:phoenixrisin wrote: Ravenous D wrote:Just glancing through mine now and Im sure glad I didn't open the wraithknight because that think is crap for 300pts, I'd rather take 2 wraithlords.
besides that:
- Farseers: terrible, I rolled it out a bunch of times and sometimes got Doom fortune, the other powers just blow. I even rolled Eldrad and managed it a few times. If I cant rely on them getting good powers they are a waste of points.
-Warlocks: also terrible, seriously you cant rely on a solid battle plan with these things unless you are getting shrouding, and they cant even join wraithguard!
-Spiritseer: cheaper then I expected but otherwise good, 2 rolls on that table is better then one, still random but its better then nothing.
-Wraithguard/blades: No battle trance is a bummer, but I think having a unit of D scythes will be a combat deterrent unless your enemys want to lose half a unit on the way in. Overall happy with these guys.
-Wraithknight: Waste of points, 280pts for 3 s6 plasma cannon shots? Next.
-Jetbikes: Sweet Jesus, why are the models so bad because these things are busted.
Warpspiders: 6 + 2D6 + D6 + shoot + 2D6 move? Holy feth balls!! and they are S7 against vehicles and everything i3 and lower? Give me 30.
did you really just reduce a monster with 5 S10 attacks at I5 on the charge down to just "3x S6 blasts?". if you're doing it right, those blasts are TL, not to mention reducing a jump infantry monster with the option of taking enough AP2 to melt an entire termie squad a turn...
and honestly, i know the internet thinks the new jet bikes are so  , but you have to realize, they are a 17 point model with a space marine save, the fact that they were nearly double before is just a testament to how bad they were.
If you TL the shots, you're looking at 320 points. For that, you can get a staggering amount of nasty elsewhere in the Codex. Just to start, the new OP Dark Reapers sling turds in your breakfast in a bad way. Wraithguard with D-Scythes in a Wave Serpent will melt a Terminator squad with very little effort as well, amongst other things. The WK, while it may have its uses, is a gimmick all said and done sadly.
Edit: Just looked at the points cost of my Eldar Lynx super heavy... that thing can lay down the smack and slice half the board in two compared to the WK for the same points cost.
actually, it's 300 with the setup i mentioned. and eldar lynx super heavies aren't allowed in 40k so that point is moot. but i'll entertain your silly claim all the same. a WK has a better save that a lynx. it has no s10 ap2 attack in CC and it is a vehicle, which is not a good thing in 6th.
dark repears are nowhere near OP now. they're 38 points with a krak missile a krak missile dev is 29 points in the DA book and a plasma dev is the same price, both of which will put out more or equal hurt to the reapers. you're paying 9 points to be able to move to and shoot? yeah, SUPER OP OMG!!!
play a game with the new book before you go bashing half of it. and keep in mind that farseers are not even needed anymore since everything is BS4 and more mobile and survivable (battle focus, 3+ FD, 5++ war walkers).
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
Reapers are S8 AP3 now? Is it one shot or 2?
44326
Post by: DeffDred
2 S5 Ap3 or 1 S8 Ap3. SaP.
47547
Post by: CthuluIsSpy
Oh so just like how it was before. Except with SaP.
Looks like I'm still going to hate reapers then
59036
Post by: phoenixrisin
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Oh so just like how it was before. Except with SaP.
Looks like I'm still going to hate reapers then
they're also 7 points cheaper. so in other words...they still suck
47547
Post by: CthuluIsSpy
I meant playing against them. Reapers gave me a hard time back in 4th ed I still have bad memories...
3333
Post by: milo
Whoops, nevermind. I goofed on that one.
47547
Post by: CthuluIsSpy
milo wrote:Another wierd thing: How did the Hemlock NOT get the "Psychic Pilot" USR? Edit: Nevermind...it does.
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Post by: Sasori
CthuluIsSpy wrote:milo wrote:Another wierd thing: How did the Hemlock NOT get the "Psychic Pilot" USR?
Does the hemlock have any psy powers to use?
Just Terrify.
40013
Post by: launcelot7891
milo wrote:Another wierd thing: How did the Hemlock NOT get the "Psychic Pilot" USR?
Umm... it does.
48768
Post by: Hollowman
Da Butcha wrote:Not looking at the Codex from a 'relative power' viewpoint, but from a 'makes sense in the fluff' perspective, I feel that it is really poorly thought out.
Apart from banshees needing grenades (agreed), I don't see the problem. You make fluffy armies by using your FOC to make a fluffy army, not by jamming more slots in. An Iyanden army will have more Wraithlords than a Biel-Tan army because the player will buy more wraithlords - you don't need an extra slot to make a wraith army work. If you feel the need, double your FOC - your not going to be taking 4 Wraithlords at under 2k anyway. If you want a Pheonix Lord to lead a horde of his aspect, then throw thirty of them on the table and run with it. Just because their Lord is there doesn't mean Banshees should be holding objectives.
And just because a farseer is a good psyker doesn't mean they can control what kind of energies the warp or whatever is offering up today. That's how psyker work now... no shock there, and it wouldn't make sense for it to work otherwise the way the game is currently set up.
If I can run a Harlequin army using the dex, I'm sure you can manage to create whatever fluffy combo you need. You don't need to flood the board with Dark Reaper or Striking Scorpion troops, and it wouldn't make a lick of sense to have them to begin with.
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Post by: MandalorynOranj
Yeah, a fluffy Biel-Tan army is perfectly possible in this book. Dire Avengers are Aspect Warriors, and the most common ones at that, which is why they're troops. Want a Swordwind? Only run DA's for your troops. Boom. Done.
65266
Post by: majendie
Having random powers is good. Because it means Eldar players will use something other than Doom, Fortune and Guide *EVERY SINGLE GAME*. It brings variety to the tactics that wasn't really there before, because those three were the only sensible things to do.
I played a game on the weekend and used Eldritch Storm for the first time ever, simply because I rolled it up. It was surprisingly fun, especially since I moved the Farseer out to cast it and ran back into cover afterwards (and killed two Crisis Suits with it).
If you run Eldrad, a Farseer and a full complement of warlocks you're casting 17 Warp Charges a turn. You won't get them all off, with Warlocks on LD8, but you're still rocking the most individual psykers of any army. Double Warlock powers means you're either buffing the hell out of your jetbikes and objective squatting Defenders or debuffing every single enemy unit.
Remember also that Blessings and Maledictions are cumulative. With the right rolls on the psychic tables you could have a unit of Warlocks on it's own flying around on 2+ armour AND 2+ Jink Jetbikes, lots of +Str/WS/I, or charge into a unit that you have debuffed to have -3 (or more) LD, -1 (or more) Str, -1 OR MORE armour, -1 (or more) WS/I... Hell, get a Farseer or Autarch to join that unit and go to town...
Even with random powers, I think Warlocks have become a hell of a lot more useful. It makes it harder, because you don't know what you're running with, but I think that very fact make it more interesting to play.
15674
Post by: jcress410
CthuluIsSpy wrote: I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote: Phazael wrote:Had a big long rant from 14 years of built up nerd rage of every marine whine causing the army to be repeatedly nerfed, but let me sum this up in five thoughts:
1) Codex Wraiths is a workable book. Codex Eldar is an unplayable mess.
2) The most powerful Psykers in the galaxy are not dependant on randomly rolling the correct power and passing a LD8 test in most cases. They also have no psykic defense.
3) Guardians could be armed with meltaguns and it still would not fix the issue of them being bolter bait with a short range gun. In fact, every single unit that was weak in the prior two (or more books) either had some failed attempt to fix them or just flat out got nerfed/price hiked. Honestly, did anyone think that the Avatar needed a 35 point price hike and reduction of Invul save, even when you could assure getting fortune?
4) Phail Kelly finally outdid his Beastmen book, in terms of giving zero care to the army and brainless options. Case in point, three units in the book getting nightvision (the avatar even pays for it) while being limited to 12" guns, Banshee masks being pointless without the grenades to go with them, the non- IC sniper that can infiltrate 1" away from the enemy, the LD9 psyker with less gear and options than a Dark Angel or Chaos equivalent who costs more, the option for +1 STR attacks on a S10 MC, and on and on....
5) If it was on the list of things that marine players whine and cry about, it got nerfed. Runes of Anything? Check. Halequins? Check. S10 Wraithlords? Check. Fire Dragons? Check. Meltaproof Wave Serpents? Check. Autarch Reserve stacking? Check. reliable Fortune or Doom? Check and Check. Destructor Jetbike spam? Check. Eldrad got nerfed, too. Hell even the pirate prince took it in the pooper in this book. This should surprise me, but every book since the Eldar debuted has been a giant nerf loaded love letter to MEQ books.
As an Iyanden player, I will enjoy the giant (yet overpriced) Knights, though they will die horribly to anything half their cost in close combat, even with the shield. As a Saim Han player, I still have my bikes and the overall cost of the units means my army remains largely unaltered, though I like will not bother with a farseer in what was already a soft theme army. As a general and Beil Tan player, I lament the nerds to already underused units and the squandered opportunities. I didn't really use psykers much beyond the occasional lone fortune monkey Bike Farseer, but I can understand the larger Eldar community's rage at the massive overnerf.
Once I paint up a couple knights, the 14k of Eldar I own will go right back on the shelf, unless my Tau need some wraith allies....
Loads of other people on the internet, many of them eldar players, see the firepower upgrades, cool new rules, price breaks, BS4 etc and feel quite excited about the new options and possibilities. You see only the negative changes. I do not see any 'larger Eldar community's rage' and I have to wonder at this sort of joyless, bitter approach to the game.
It happens after every new release. During the necron release, the forum was full of threads whining about how the necrons were nerfed and ruined.
So, where are the doom scythes and wraiths in the eldar book everyone is overlooking?
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Post by: GTKA666
jcress410 wrote:
So, where are the doom scythes and wraiths in the eldar book everyone is overlooking?
There is this thing called a brain. If you don't use it you will never find the combos that Kelly has given us. We have always had wraiths and we don't have doom scythes. Just a  ton of answers to the scythe.
The only problem I have with the codex is that the amount of time I have to use in order to test all the damn combos I have swimming in my head.
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Post by: Macok
jcress410 wrote:So, where are the doom scythes and wraiths in the eldar book everyone is overlooking?
And what do Doom scythes and Wraiths have to do with what CthuluIsSpy said?
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Post by: zephoid
.... People really dont read do they. Someone stated that the cron codex was bitched about at first also. However, things like the Doom scythe and Wraiths were overlooked by many players until 6th for the doom scythe and the new wraith models for the wraiths. The eldar codex really doesnt have many "must takes" like those two models. He is pointing that out.
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Post by: jcress410
zephoid wrote:.... People really dont read do they. Someone stated that the cron codex was bitched about at first also. However, things like the Doom scythe and Wraiths were overlooked by many players until 6th for the doom scythe and the new wraith models for the wraiths. The eldar codex really doesnt have many "must takes" like those two models. He is pointing that out.
Thanks. Exactly.
The only thing worse than people whining about the new codex is all the reactionaries who say "QUIT WHINING"...
The best way to shut up the whiners is to actually talk about why the book is good, not just insist whining is annoying.
I like the wave serpent. Could have been costed better, some of the upgrades are meh, but, I'll have a few.
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
Well, considering how the Eldar tactics thread is 8 pages long and appears to be quite positive, I would say the new book is decent.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/180/530611.page
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Post by: GTKA666
zephoid wrote:.... People really dont read do they. Someone stated that the cron codex was bitched about at first also. However, things like the Doom scythe and Wraiths were overlooked by many players until 6th for the doom scythe and the new wraith models for the wraiths. The eldar codex really doesnt have many "must takes" like those two models. He is pointing that out.
your right. We have too many.
I mean looking at our fast attack we have the crimson hunter, warp spiders, shining spears. While Hawks, the hemlock bomber, and the vypers just need some play testing in order to find their uses.
For heavy we got: Dark Reapers, Fire Prism, Night Spinner, WW, WL and I just need to playtest the WK a little bit more ( I am liking him a lot atm) along with the support batteries.
Elite? Well Scorpions sure as hell have found their place in the codex, harlequins as usual, WG and I could care less about blades. While Fragons have lost a lil bit of their place in the codex with banshees, we really shouldn't discount them until we see if they have any potential.
Troops? I think we already know about them plenty.
Hq? I think everyone except for maybe 2 Phoenix lords and Yriel are ready to go in the codex.
So yes, we have too many options. At least we have a TON of more options than we have had beforehand.
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Post by: Macok
zephoid wrote:.... People really dont read do they. Someone stated that the cron codex was bitched about at first also. However, things like the Doom scythe and Wraiths were overlooked by many players until 6th for the doom scythe and the new wraith models for the wraiths. The eldar codex really doesnt have many "must takes" like those two models. He is pointing that out.
It's not about the "must takes" or units that are no-brainer-powerful. It's about looking at a codex and not seeing any strengths at all.
It's about bitching the whole codex is ruined and worst while completely ignoring the options that are good. And there are good options and they already have been stated here and in other topics that bloomed after codex release.
Just because it doesn't have "doom scythes" does not mean that it's "unplayable mess". It does not have to include those and at the same time not to be the worst thing ever.
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Post by: zephoid
None of those are must takes. The fact that you include the two fliers is incredible. Do you really think that a AV10 flier with no defensive equipment will perform? Then their are spears, which are still as bad as ever. Nightspinner is clearly outclassed. WW and vypers are overcosted and will fall apart if someone looks at them (seriously, does no one see how fragile AV10 is? i stopped running my scatter walkers and converted them to cannons as they die 1st turn every game. Now i wouldnt run them at all).
The HS slot and HQ slots are contested, but troop, elite, and FA are all full of mediocre-duds. That doesnt mean the codex is bad. I like a lot of changes to a lot of the aspects and only banshees are truly unusable, but a lot of the units simply wont see competitive play.
Edit: Find me where i call the codex unusable. Hell, find me where i call the codex bad. Dont put words in my mouth(fingers?). By pointing out we dont have any amazing units doesnt mean i dont like the codex.
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Post by: Pony_law
zephoid wrote:None of those are must takes. The fact that you include the two fliers is incredible. Do you really think that a AV10 flier with no defensive equipment will perform? Then their are spears, which are still as bad as ever. Nightspinner is clearly outclassed. WW and vypers are overcosted and will fall apart if someone looks at them (seriously, does no one see how fragile AV10 is? i stopped running my scatter walkers and converted them to cannons as they die 1st turn every game. Now i wouldnt run them at all).
do you understand battle rights? hide your walkers out of LOS, then move them into LOS, shoot and run back out of LOS which you can reliably do because they have fleet.
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Post by: zephoid
You run 4" on average. If you roll anything less than average, you are in sight and your war walkers are dead. Also, hiding more than 1 war walker would require a much higher roll. Anything that can move even 6" can get line of sight on some of the back WW. Then you have barrage, fliers, skimmers, bikes, jump inf, good enemy positioning, lack of tall cover that can cover 3 WW, and so on. Keeping out of LOS for extended time is a dream.
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Post by: GTKA666
zephoid wrote:None of those are must takes. The fact that you include the two fliers is incredible. Do you really think that a AV10 flier with no defensive equipment will perform? Then their are spears, which are still as bad as ever. Nightspinner is clearly outclassed. WW and vypers are overcosted and will fall apart if someone looks at them (seriously, does no one see how fragile AV10 is? i stopped running my scatter walkers and converted them to cannons as they die 1st turn every game. Now i wouldnt run them at all).
The HS slot and HQ slots are contested, but troop, elite, and FA are all full of mediocre-duds. That doesnt mean the codex is bad. I like a lot of changes to a lot of the aspects and only banshees are truly unusable, but a lot of the units simply wont see competitive play.
Edit: Find me where i call the codex unusable. Hell, find me where i call the codex bad. Dont put words in my mouth(fingers?). By pointing out we dont have any amazing units doesnt mean i dont like the codex.
Your accounting for things way too early w/o any testing. I counted the fliers for their potential and not their ability to survive.
WW are not as fragile as you might think (but if they are the only threat to your enemy then yes they will be gone), especially when I have a WK looming over the battlefield and everyone aims for it. If I go first and I have the WK and Scatter walkers...well just imagine units being pummeled and vehicles going WABOOM. Have you ever played with the nightspinner? That thing is crazy with the amount of power, range, and AoE it has.
Mediocre duds? Just because our range wasn't changed doesn't mean they don't have their uses. My first game with the codex proved how deadly shuriken weps are. The opponent dropped a unit of marines in front of me (after deviating) and when he reduced one of my 3 10 man squads to just 3 guardians and a Warlock I was kinda impressed. Then it became my turn and the pod along with the whole squad died. The drop pod died to the Avatar, while one squad of 10 reduced the 10 man squad to a measly 4 and had the other healthy squad mop em up. We are talking about guardians raping a squad of marines. One can only imagine the potential of other shuriken weps.
hmmm more duds,,,lets see....harlequins? not duds by any means, I mean 4 attacks on the charge with rending? SS? even a cynic like you has to admit they can clear a crowd to allow the harlies to blast through. WG? i don't see how they are mediocre at all. Blades? Ill give you that, but only for now until I see how they work out. Fragons? Are at the right price and you can just take em in a Scatter Falcon. Banshees? have potential, we just need to test them and see what their worth is.
Now for FA: How dare you call the Warp spiders mediocre. They are the shining aspect in FA. Speaking of shiny our fliers! We are AV10, BIG FREAKING WOOP. So we don't have the armor of humans, BIG FREAKING WOOP. So we have to use our brains while playing Eldar....NOTHING CHANGED THERE! The Crimson is fast as all hell and with vector dancer, can maneuver to go into the side or even the freaking rear of fliers, while doing that they can stay out of range of the next wave of fliers(if cron air) or the AA on the ground. Our bomber? No surprise there with the track record of bombers these days. Just need to test out its weapon potential to see if it is really cracked up to anything (comboing it with the - ld power would be a great start as well). Swooping hawks need to be tested, but I can see their potential already. Spears and Vypers have both improved and can be great additions if used right. The trick is to finding what they are for.
Just like the 4th ed. codex we need to use our brains and figure out synergy all over again. No one unit is going to out shine the other because THEY ALL DO ONE THING AND ONE THING ONLY. A lot of people don't get that. Whats great about our codex is that even the worst unit on paper can kick  on the field because someone found out that there is a use for them. It is just about rolling with the punches and hitting harder back with speed and tactics that other armies don't need as much of.
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Post by: MandalorynOranj
GTKA666 wrote:No one unit is going to out shine the other because THEY ALL DO ONE THING AND ONE THING ONLY.
Except Warp Spiders. Warp Spiders do everything  .
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Post by: Makumba
We are talking about guardians raping a squad of marines
3 squads of guardians , supported by an avatar should always kill a 10 man meq unit . If they wouldn't then there would realy be a problem. Besides you were realy supprised that when a single marine unit drop in front of a 4 unit formation the marines die? Unless it was some fire magnet tactics I dont see why would anyone drop or use a single pod. Maybe if it was a suicide unit , but why waste the shoting on a unit of guardians then ?
How big are the tables you play on , that you can stay of range of intereceptors and other flyers.
The problem with anything that isnt a wrighguard is that it is too random too use because of weapons range and how offten drakes or simiular are used.
Spears are bad because of the number of attacks they have , vypers are nice with the change made to shuriken weapons , but they still cost a lot .
and night spinners to be effective would require 6x6 boards or larger and tons of LoS blocking terrain.
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Post by: JB_Man
Personally, I'm finding the Eldar codex to be very one-dimensional, and possibly overpowered. Jetbikes are just too cheap, now. Running 24 GJBs was a lot, before. That was all of my troops. It barely scratches the surface, now. I'm contemplating running 54 of them, while still having plenty or room to round out my lists. Honestly, I don't want to buy 30 more jetbikes (300 bucks MORE in jetbikes? lolno.), so GW can suck it, but it seems like a very reasonable thing to do. I can't imagine running anything else when the jetbikes are sooooo nasty.
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Post by: jcress410
JB_Man wrote:Personally, I'm finding the Eldar codex to be very one-dimensional, and possibly overpowered. Jetbikes are just too cheap, now. Running 24 GJBs was a lot, before. That was all of my troops. It barely scratches the surface, now. I'm contemplating running 54 of them, while still having plenty or room to round out my lists. Honestly, I don't want to buy 30 more jetbikes (300 bucks MORE in jetbikes? lolno.), so GW can suck it, but it seems like a very reasonable thing to do. I can't imagine running anything else when the jetbikes are sooooo nasty.
I just bought six to get started on. It's really depressing to pay $80 for two boxes of minis, then open them to find "copyright 1994" on all the sprue...
Ugh. My eldar have gigantic 2nd edition heads.
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Post by: Wraithlord
Quick question:
Does anyone know what the errata was for? On page 63 under the weapon profile everything looks fine for the Shadow weaver.
-Dinkins
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Post by: Chrysis
It's for the reference page at the back. The reference in the printed codex has Large Blast instead of just Blast.
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Post by: GTKA666
Makumba wrote:We are talking about guardians raping a squad of marines
3 squads of guardians , supported by an avatar should always kill a 10 man meq unit . If they wouldn't then there would realy be a problem. Besides you were realy supprised that when a single marine unit drop in front of a 4 unit formation the marines die? Unless it was some fire magnet tactics I dont see why would anyone drop or use a single pod. Maybe if it was a suicide unit , but why waste the shoting on a unit of guardians then ?
How big are the tables you play on , that you can stay of range of intereceptors and other flyers.
The problem with anything that isnt a wrighguard is that it is too random too use because of weapons range and how offten drakes or simiular are used.
Spears are bad because of the number of attacks they have , vypers are nice with the change made to shuriken weapons , but they still cost a lot .
and night spinners to be effective would require 6x6 boards or larger and tons of LoS blocking terrain.
The avatar hit the drop pod and only 2 guardians hit the meq squad. He planned on getting behind my lines and hit my WK I think, but I really have no idea as to what he was doing except to see how the weapons matched up seeing as to how he could have done things a lot differently. He even dropped his termies in a far off place that only the WK could get to. I also haven't really faced marines much and it was surprising how effective the new "rending" is because 3+ saves are just brutal.
I play on standard 6x4 tables and Spinners are effective on 6x4. You just need to deploy it just right, so that people are aware that it is there, but can't really reach it because if they try, they die  .
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Correct sir. Spiders do one thing and one thing only...Rape...
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Post by: Farseer_Kaiser
zephoid wrote: WW and vypers are overcosted and will fall apart if someone looks at them (seriously, does no one see how fragile AV10 is? i stopped running my scatter walkers and converted them to cannons as they die 1st turn every game.
Well as far as Shuriwalkers go, for 40 more points for the squad they've gained +1bs, a 5++, psuedorending and Battlefocus. 180pts for a unit that outflanks with 18 bs4 s6 rending shots. Thats hardly poor, even if they do have durability issues. Far as Scatterwalkers go, I'm waiting to see what the FAQ says about two lots of laserlock weapons on a model, but again they're only 30pts a unit more than they used to be and they gain so so much.
Brightlance Walker squads are still bad however.
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Post by: majendie
Farseer_Kaiser wrote: zephoid wrote: WW and vypers are overcosted and will fall apart if someone looks at them (seriously, does no one see how fragile AV10 is? i stopped running my scatter walkers and converted them to cannons as they die 1st turn every game.
Well as far as Shuriwalkers go, for 40 more points for the squad they've gained +1bs, a 5++, psuedorending and Battlefocus. 180pts for a unit that outflanks with 18 bs4 s6 rending shots. Thats hardly poor, even if they do have durability issues. Far as Scatterwalkers go, I'm waiting to see what the FAQ says about two lots of laserlock weapons on a model, but again they're only 30pts a unit more than they used to be and they gain so so much.
Brightlance Walker squads are still bad however.
Laser Lock rule is clear on models with multiple Scatter Lasers - you fire them fire, all at once, so you can't TL the second with the first. Only works with different weapons.
With that in mind - I was thinking about giving mine a SL and a Bright Lance - same price as two SLs, but you get a twin linked anti-tank in the mix. Give them Star Engines as well (expensive I know) and you have a very powerful hit than can move out of cover, fire and has a guaranteed 4" move back in, so you should probably be able to keep them in cover almost the whole game (depending on your opponents movements of course). Makes them 85 points each though... Or give them holo-fields instead/as well, so they can be rocking a 3-4+ cover save all game...
Gotta say though, even with the 5+ they die quickly :(
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Post by: Shandara
Making them open-topped again was just mean, I mean the power field is supposed to be just as good as actual armour.
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Post by: Makumba
The avatar hit the drop pod and only 2 guardians hit the meq squad.
Because the third one was almost dead . I get it . Doesn't change the fact that a meq drop pod attacked 3 units of guardians with support. That is a stupid thing to do , unless someone wants to destroy a very specific target , which doesn't seem to have happened here. Now If let us say the pod droped and had a unit made to kill the avatar and then die , Then we could say that the meq unit did his job and then died what was expected from it . But what realy happened was a meq unit do a kamikaze drop , not even going a kill point or first blood and then get wiped out.
If he did the same to a Tyranid army with 3 steal squads and a prime , we wouldnt say that the stealers are good this edition because a single squad of meqs got killed by them ?
The range is a huge , no go factor for me as far as the eldar guardians goes. It maybe 18+run technicly , but on turn one the guardians do nothing and out of transports they die even easier then my IG , because my IG aren't trying to get within 18" of an opponent unit . Eldar can of course fix the range problem by runing wave serpents for their guardians , but at that point I may as well take DA with extra range and less random influence on game play.
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Post by: xttz
Farseer_Kaiser wrote: zephoid wrote: WW and vypers are overcosted and will fall apart if someone looks at them (seriously, does no one see how fragile AV10 is? i stopped running my scatter walkers and converted them to cannons as they die 1st turn every game.
Brightlance Walker squads are still bad however.
Walkers and Vypers can be kept alive with various combinations of terrain, Outflank, Battle Focus, Jink or Fortune. Plus the obvious "keep them away from anything dangerous". Most weapon options are 36" meaning they don't need to be in assault or bolter range of their target. You can also be clever with the 6e allocation rules, such as buying Holofields for a single Vyper in a squadron and keeping him nearest the enemy. In the end they're not too different from the rest of the Eldar codex - hard-hitting but vulnerable under anything more that light fire.
And why do you think Brightlance Walkers are bad? The weapon is only 5pts now, and that's six S8 AP2 lance shots at BS4. Waaaaaaaay better than paying 30pts per weapon at BS3. They will out-damage 2 Fire Prisms and cost 40pts less for the trouble. With the amount of W4+ MC's running around these days, that much firepower can come in handy.
JB_Man wrote:Personally, I'm finding the Eldar codex to be very one-dimensional, and possibly overpowered. Jetbikes are just too cheap, now. Running 24 GJBs was a lot, before. That was all of my troops. It barely scratches the surface, now. I'm contemplating running 54 of them, while still having plenty or room to round out my lists. Honestly, I don't want to buy 30 more jetbikes (300 bucks MORE in jetbikes? lolno.), so GW can suck it, but it seems like a very reasonable thing to do. I can't imagine running anything else when the jetbikes are sooooo nasty.
Just because one unit is particularly good, does not mean GW is forcing you to max out your list with them. There are plenty of other solid Troops choices. You could experiment with those instead of trying to build a WAAC list then complaining it involves spending money.
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Post by: JB_Man
xttz wrote:Farseer_Kaiser wrote: zephoid wrote: WW and vypers are overcosted and will fall apart if someone looks at them (seriously, does no one see how fragile AV10 is? i stopped running my scatter walkers and converted them to cannons as they die 1st turn every game.
Brightlance Walker squads are still bad however.
Walkers and Vypers can be kept alive with various combinations of terrain, Outflank, Battle Focus, Jink or Fortune. Plus the obvious "keep them away from anything dangerous". Most weapon options are 36" meaning they don't need to be in assault or bolter range of their target. You can also be clever with the 6e allocation rules, such as buying Holofields for a single Vyper in a squadron and keeping him nearest the enemy. In the end they're not too different from the rest of the Eldar codex - hard-hitting but vulnerable under anything more that light fire.
And why do you think Brightlance Walkers are bad? The weapon is only 5pts now, and that's six S8 AP2 lance shots at BS4. Waaaaaaaay better than paying 30pts per weapon at BS3. They will out-damage 2 Fire Prisms and cost 40pts less for the trouble. With the amount of W4+ MC's running around these days, that much firepower can come in handy.
JB_Man wrote:Personally, I'm finding the Eldar codex to be very one-dimensional, and possibly overpowered. Jetbikes are just too cheap, now. Running 24 GJBs was a lot, before. That was all of my troops. It barely scratches the surface, now. I'm contemplating running 54 of them, while still having plenty or room to round out my lists. Honestly, I don't want to buy 30 more jetbikes (300 bucks MORE in jetbikes? lolno.), so GW can suck it, but it seems like a very reasonable thing to do. I can't imagine running anything else when the jetbikes are sooooo nasty.
Just because one unit is particularly good, does not mean GW is forcing you to max out your list with them. There are plenty of other solid Troops choices. You could experiment with those instead of trying to build a WAAC list then complaining it involves spending money.
Of course GW isn't forcing anyone to run them. Just like GW didn't force anyone to run GK in 5th, or Cron Air in 6th. Oh wait.
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Post by: jcress410
JB_Man wrote:Personally, I'm finding the Eldar codex to be very one-dimensional, and possibly overpowered. Jetbikes are just too cheap, now. Running 24 GJBs was a lot, before. That was all of my troops. It barely scratches the surface, now. I'm contemplating running 54 of them, while still having plenty or room to round out my lists. Honestly, I don't want to buy 30 more jetbikes (300 bucks MORE in jetbikes? lolno.), so GW can suck it, but it seems like a very reasonable thing to do. I can't imagine running anything else when the jetbikes are sooooo nasty.
How would 54 jetbikes win games? They're durable, but there are a lot of things they are useless against ( str 4 weapons, not stellar in assault)...
Jetbikes certainly got better, but I'm confused about how they fill 1000 points in a competitive list
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Post by: Farseer_Kaiser
xttz wrote:And why do you think Brightlance Walkers are bad? The weapon is only 5pts now, and that's six S8 AP2 lance shots at BS4. Waaaaaaaay better than paying 30pts per weapon at BS3. They will out-damage 2 Fire Prisms and cost 40pts less for the trouble. With the amount of W4+ MC's running around these days, that much firepower can come in handy..
Ok, maybe I was a bit hasty about that one, but you'll get so much more mileage out of Fireprisms that I think they're a much better take, also Prisms is the same number of Hull Points, but AV12 and nearly double the range. 210pts for 6 shots on a av10 frame just a bit hard to swallow, I think Walkers are best left to mowing down infantry and light vehicles and heavy fire support left to other units in the codex (god knows we have enough choice!)
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Post by: Farseer Faenyin
jcress410 wrote:JB_Man wrote:Personally, I'm finding the Eldar codex to be very one-dimensional, and possibly overpowered. Jetbikes are just too cheap, now. Running 24 GJBs was a lot, before. That was all of my troops. It barely scratches the surface, now. I'm contemplating running 54 of them, while still having plenty or room to round out my lists. Honestly, I don't want to buy 30 more jetbikes (300 bucks MORE in jetbikes? lolno.), so GW can suck it, but it seems like a very reasonable thing to do. I can't imagine running anything else when the jetbikes are sooooo nasty.
How would 54 jetbikes win games? They're durable, but there are a lot of things they are useless against ( str 4 weapons, not stellar in assault)...
Jetbikes certainly got better, but I'm confused about how they fill 1000 points in a competitive list
When coupled with the Runes of Battle powers the Jetbikes have a good chance of being a very hard to kill unit. They do well enough in assault, especially if you attach some independant characters. Their big niche is their speed and points cost for a 3+ save, tough 4...with the possibility of being +1 armor save or Shrouded on their jinks.
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Post by: GTKA666
Makumba wrote:The avatar hit the drop pod and only 2 guardians hit the meq squad.
Because the third one was almost dead . I get it . Doesn't change the fact that a meq drop pod attacked 3 units of guardians with support. That is a stupid thing to do , unless someone wants to destroy a very specific target , which doesn't seem to have happened here. Now If let us say the pod droped and had a unit made to kill the avatar and then die , Then we could say that the meq unit did his job and then died what was expected from it . But what realy happened was a meq unit do a kamikaze drop , not even going a kill point or first blood and then get wiped out.
If he did the same to a Tyranid army with 3 steal squads and a prime , we wouldnt say that the stealers are good this edition because a single squad of meqs got killed by them ?
The range is a huge , no go factor for me as far as the eldar guardians goes. It maybe 18+run technicly , but on turn one the guardians do nothing and out of transports they die even easier then my IG , because my IG aren't trying to get within 18" of an opponent unit . Eldar can of course fix the range problem by runing wave serpents for their guardians , but at that point I may as well take DA with extra range and less random influence on game play.
Go ahead and roll how many meqs die to guardian fire....from BS3 and then compare it to the new BS4 "rending" guardians. Like I said he was probably wondering how the new Eldar stacked up because he played Eldar as well.
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Post by: JB_Man
jcress410 wrote:JB_Man wrote:Personally, I'm finding the Eldar codex to be very one-dimensional, and possibly overpowered. Jetbikes are just too cheap, now. Running 24 GJBs was a lot, before. That was all of my troops. It barely scratches the surface, now. I'm contemplating running 54 of them, while still having plenty or room to round out my lists. Honestly, I don't want to buy 30 more jetbikes (300 bucks MORE in jetbikes? lolno.), so GW can suck it, but it seems like a very reasonable thing to do. I can't imagine running anything else when the jetbikes are sooooo nasty.
How would 54 jetbikes win games? They're durable, but there are a lot of things they are useless against ( str 4 weapons, not stellar in assault)...
Jetbikes certainly got better, but I'm confused about how they fill 1000 points in a competitive list
Don't forget the Shuriken Cannons at str 6. Insanely mobile, scoring heavy hitters. Maybe 54 is an exaggeration, but they're way over the top at almost the same price as a basic marine... I could see it happen.
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Post by: Jancoran
Wraithknights are nearly unkillable., Bring instant death weapons to the party.
71308
Post by: GTKA666
Jancoran wrote:Wraithknights are nearly unkillable., Bring instant death weapons to the party.
they are not unkillable. They just know how to draw the fire to em.
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Post by: DeffDred
GTKA666 wrote: Jancoran wrote:Wraithknights are nearly unkillable., Bring instant death weapons to the party.
they are not unkillable. They just know how to draw the fire to em.
I think he was using humour. Like getting a forceweapon inot combat with it. Bit o' biomancy can help a long way, too.
71308
Post by: GTKA666
DeffDred wrote:GTKA666 wrote: Jancoran wrote:Wraithknights are nearly unkillable., Bring instant death weapons to the party.
they are not unkillable. They just know how to draw the fire to em.
I think he was using humour. Like getting a forceweapon inot combat with it. Bit o' biomancy can help a long way, too.
if Eldar had access to biomancy...all the Tyranid players would quit playing rofl...and their rage would feed me for years on end.
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Post by: nosferatu1001
Phazael wrote:Had a big long rant from 14 years of built up nerd rage of every marine whine causing the army to be repeatedly nerfed, but let me sum this up in five thoughts:..... This should surprise me, but every book since the Eldar debuted has been a giant nerf loaded love letter to MEQ books.
Erm, just to correct this point, which others missed correcting you on.
Are you SERIOUSLY claiming that 4th edition Eldar, when it debuted, was a "nerf" ? One of the most fundamentally broken books of 4th edition, which exploited every single rule it could do ( SMF, rending, skimmers LOS, glancing table) to create a nearly unkillable army was a nerf? Really?
Others have covered your other inaccuracies, however I could not let this one lie uncontested.
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
nosferatu1001 wrote: Phazael wrote:Had a big long rant from 14 years of built up nerd rage of every marine whine causing the army to be repeatedly nerfed, but let me sum this up in five thoughts:..... This should surprise me, but every book since the Eldar debuted has been a giant nerf loaded love letter to MEQ books.
Erm, just to correct this point, which others missed correcting you on. Are you SERIOUSLY claiming that 4th edition Eldar, when it debuted, was a "nerf" ? One of the most fundamentally broken books of 4th edition, which exploited every single rule it could do ( SMF, rending, skimmers LOS, glancing table) to create a nearly unkillable army was a nerf? Really? Others have covered your other inaccuracies, however I could not let this one lie uncontested. Yeah, 4th ed Eldar was insane. I swear that the Harlequins were designed solely to take advantage of the rending and the "consolidate into a new target" rules
4139
Post by: wuestenfux
CthuluIsSpy wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote: Phazael wrote:Had a big long rant from 14 years of built up nerd rage of every marine whine causing the army to be repeatedly nerfed, but let me sum this up in five thoughts:..... This should surprise me, but every book since the Eldar debuted has been a giant nerf loaded love letter to MEQ books.
Erm, just to correct this point, which others missed correcting you on.
Are you SERIOUSLY claiming that 4th edition Eldar, when it debuted, was a "nerf" ? One of the most fundamentally broken books of 4th edition, which exploited every single rule it could do ( SMF, rending, skimmers LOS, glancing table) to create a nearly unkillable army was a nerf? Really?
Others have covered your other inaccuracies, however I could not let this one lie uncontested.
Yeah, 4th ed Eldar was insane. I swear that the Harlequins were designed solely to take advantage of the rending and the "consolidate into a new target" rules
And Falcons were nearly indestructible thanks to holofields.
47547
Post by: CthuluIsSpy
wuestenfux wrote: CthuluIsSpy wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote: Phazael wrote:Had a big long rant from 14 years of built up nerd rage of every marine whine causing the army to be repeatedly nerfed, but let me sum this up in five thoughts:..... This should surprise me, but every book since the Eldar debuted has been a giant nerf loaded love letter to MEQ books.
Erm, just to correct this point, which others missed correcting you on.
Are you SERIOUSLY claiming that 4th edition Eldar, when it debuted, was a "nerf" ? One of the most fundamentally broken books of 4th edition, which exploited every single rule it could do ( SMF, rending, skimmers LOS, glancing table) to create a nearly unkillable army was a nerf? Really?
Others have covered your other inaccuracies, however I could not let this one lie uncontested.
Yeah, 4th ed Eldar was insane. I swear that the Harlequins were designed solely to take advantage of the rending and the "consolidate into a new target" rules
And Falcons were nearly indestructible thanks to holofields.
Why, what did holofields do back then? I usually had to deal with wraithlords and harlequins.
65826
Post by: bit81
thoughts are eldar realy dont get alot for 2000pts
dont like dire avenger exarchs and most exarch since they no longer help the squad and hate that you have to buy a character in order to get pathfinders.
but thats about my only gripes with the codex that and the gaurdins still only getting a 12" range gun
apart from that its an ok codex not the most powerful codex to date (which it should be considering eldar are one of the oldest and most advance) but I do like some of the nice touches like the spinners and sheilds on the war walker and realy like the return to epic with the wave serpent being able to launch its sheild as a weapon
first games tonight with the new codex against imperial gaurd so will be vastly out numbered
25208
Post by: AlmightyWalrus
CthuluIsSpy wrote: wuestenfux wrote: CthuluIsSpy wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote: Phazael wrote:Had a big long rant from 14 years of built up nerd rage of every marine whine causing the army to be repeatedly nerfed, but let me sum this up in five thoughts:..... This should surprise me, but every book since the Eldar debuted has been a giant nerf loaded love letter to MEQ books.
Erm, just to correct this point, which others missed correcting you on.
Are you SERIOUSLY claiming that 4th edition Eldar, when it debuted, was a "nerf" ? One of the most fundamentally broken books of 4th edition, which exploited every single rule it could do ( SMF, rending, skimmers LOS, glancing table) to create a nearly unkillable army was a nerf? Really?
Others have covered your other inaccuracies, however I could not let this one lie uncontested.
Yeah, 4th ed Eldar was insane. I swear that the Harlequins were designed solely to take advantage of the rending and the "consolidate into a new target" rules
And Falcons were nearly indestructible thanks to holofields.
Why, what did holofields do back then? I usually had to deal with wraithlords and harlequins.
Holofields forced you to roll 2D6 and to take the lowest when rolling on the damage chart. Skimmers moving fast didn't get cover saves, they downgraded penetrating hits to glancing hits. 1/36 per damage result to kill a Falcon or Wave Serpent was the result.
4139
Post by: wuestenfux
AlmightyWalrus wrote: CthuluIsSpy wrote: wuestenfux wrote: CthuluIsSpy wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote: Phazael wrote:Had a big long rant from 14 years of built up nerd rage of every marine whine causing the army to be repeatedly nerfed, but let me sum this up in five thoughts:..... This should surprise me, but every book since the Eldar debuted has been a giant nerf loaded love letter to MEQ books.
Erm, just to correct this point, which others missed correcting you on.
Are you SERIOUSLY claiming that 4th edition Eldar, when it debuted, was a "nerf" ? One of the most fundamentally broken books of 4th edition, which exploited every single rule it could do ( SMF, rending, skimmers LOS, glancing table) to create a nearly unkillable army was a nerf? Really?
Others have covered your other inaccuracies, however I could not let this one lie uncontested.
Yeah, 4th ed Eldar was insane. I swear that the Harlequins were designed solely to take advantage of the rending and the "consolidate into a new target" rules
And Falcons were nearly indestructible thanks to holofields.
Why, what did holofields do back then? I usually had to deal with wraithlords and harlequins.
Holofields forced you to roll 2D6 and to take the lowest when rolling on the damage chart. Skimmers moving fast didn't get cover saves, they downgraded penetrating hits to glancing hits. 1/36 per damage result to kill a Falcon or Wave Serpent was the result.
Serpents were not that resilient since they had energy fields but no access to holofields.
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Post by: Farseer Faenyin
That's why the Falcon/Fragon combo was so nasty. Those Fire Dragons WOULD get into range.
Honestly the best part of 4th Edition Eldar was the look on your opponents face when you used Alaitoc...and forced his non-Mechanized parts of his army to either be pinned, start in reserve or take fire before the game even started. Necrons wept tears of woe when I pushed the Rez Orb into reserves.
4139
Post by: wuestenfux
Farseer Faenyin wrote:That's why the Falcon/Fragon combo was so nasty. Those Fire Dragons WOULD get into range.
Honestly the best part of 4th Edition Eldar was the look on your opponents face when you used Alaitoc...and forced his non-Mechanized parts of his army to either be pinned, start in reserve or take fire before the game even started. Necrons wept tears of woe when I pushed the Rez Orb into reserves.
You mean the disruption table. It was pretty overpowered if you ask me.
11268
Post by: nosferatu1001
Thought that was pre-4th ed book, with the rangers craftworld?
I had sort of covered the holofield abuse by mentioning the glancing table, but it was worth mentioning. Didnt mention the consolidate as I'd forgotten about it, but as noted it was horrific.
Entirely possible to do literally no damage to the eldar army throughout the entire game, until they decided there was enough damage done to you for the harlies to leap from combat to combat.
25208
Post by: AlmightyWalrus
wuestenfux wrote: AlmightyWalrus wrote: CthuluIsSpy wrote: wuestenfux wrote: CthuluIsSpy wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote: Phazael wrote:Had a big long rant from 14 years of built up nerd rage of every marine whine causing the army to be repeatedly nerfed, but let me sum this up in five thoughts:..... This should surprise me, but every book since the Eldar debuted has been a giant nerf loaded love letter to MEQ books.
Erm, just to correct this point, which others missed correcting you on.
Are you SERIOUSLY claiming that 4th edition Eldar, when it debuted, was a "nerf" ? One of the most fundamentally broken books of 4th edition, which exploited every single rule it could do ( SMF, rending, skimmers LOS, glancing table) to create a nearly unkillable army was a nerf? Really?
Others have covered your other inaccuracies, however I could not let this one lie uncontested.
Yeah, 4th ed Eldar was insane. I swear that the Harlequins were designed solely to take advantage of the rending and the "consolidate into a new target" rules
And Falcons were nearly indestructible thanks to holofields.
Why, what did holofields do back then? I usually had to deal with wraithlords and harlequins.
Holofields forced you to roll 2D6 and to take the lowest when rolling on the damage chart. Skimmers moving fast didn't get cover saves, they downgraded penetrating hits to glancing hits. 1/36 per damage result to kill a Falcon or Wave Serpent was the result.
Serpents were not that resilient since they had energy fields but no access to holofields.
Oops, right you are. Sorry about that.
40285
Post by: JB_Man
I miss holo-fields on my Fire Prisms and being hit on 6's in melee :\ Those guys made the best mobile bunkers. /sad
5859
Post by: Ravenous D
nosferatu1001 wrote:Thought that was pre-4th ed book, with the rangers craftworld?
I had sort of covered the holofield abuse by mentioning the glancing table, but it was worth mentioning. Didnt mention the consolidate as I'd forgotten about it, but as noted it was horrific.
Entirely possible to do literally no damage to the eldar army throughout the entire game, until they decided there was enough damage done to you for the harlies to leap from combat to combat.
It was the 3rd ed Craftworld Eldar book that had the ranger force of doom. I miss that army, so many tournament wins.
53163
Post by: Avakael
I understand that Farseers will probably be dropped from the metagame, but please please please someone say that the Staff of Ulthamar still works the same way that it used to. I want to watch Eldrad activate Death Mission, and then proceed to activate God Mode. Go on, sit down, do the math, tell me it wouldn't be fun. I'm also waiting to see the FAQ to see the rules on applying Horrify to an enemy warlord, and then Mind War.
EDIT: IT IS NOT THE STAFF OF ULTRAMAR I AM A DERP. Amazing what a difference one letter can make. :|
68153
Post by: Farseer_Kaiser
Avakael wrote:I understand that Farseers will probably be dropped from the metagame, but please please please someone say that the Staff of Ulthamar still works the same way that it used to. I want to watch Eldrad activate Death Mission, and then proceed to activate God Mode. Go on, sit down, do the math, tell me it wouldn't be fun.
Nope, its s: user, ap3, fleshbane, force now. Jury is still out on whether you can activate a Force weapon while under the affects of Death Mission.
53163
Post by: Avakael
Damn, AP3. So enough to murder a lot of monstrous creatures, but not your average warlord.
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Post by: Bobthehero
Yeah, with Fleshbane and Force, you're going to kill everthing dead, till they're EW or have a 2+
Assuming its also strike at user initiative, which must 7
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