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Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/11 17:29:23


Post by: xxvaderxx


I am sure most are aware of the dropping popularity of Fantasy, Many stores have reported it dropped of their top ten sellers chart, GW them selves groups it with their rest of their revenue (licensing, forge world, black library so on) as making about 50% of its revenue (to which one can only assume Fantasy is just a portion of that), the other half being 40k.

Could GW end up axing Fantasy?.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/11 17:43:49


Post by: 12thRonin


They could, but they won't. It is a flagship product.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/11 17:55:49


Post by: kronk


If Fantasy sales dropped off a cliff, you'd probably see them try to salvage it with a new rules edition rather than scrap it. They have a crap ton of money invested in it.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/11 17:55:59


Post by: Cyporiean


12thRonin wrote:
They could, but they won't. It is a flagship product.


Weren't Epic and Lord of The Rings?

Granted LOTR 'became' The Hobbit, but still.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/11 18:00:41


Post by: Tycho


Weren't Epic and Lord of The Rings?


No. Epic's heyday was back when you could still by SpaceHulk in toy stores and GW sold several other board games in addition to Fantasy and 40k. Epic, like Blood Bowl, was a popular product, but not a flagship. LoTR was just suppose to be a cash cow.

Here's my question - Is Fantasy really dropping off? At least where I am, there's more Fantasy players (almost 2 or 3 to one ratio) than even 40k players. I'm sure on the whole, 40k probably has much bigger sales numbers, but what makes you think Fantasy is dying?


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/11 18:02:14


Post by: xxvaderxx


12thRonin wrote:
They could, but they won't. It is a flagship product.


Fantasy is certainly NOT their flagship product, 40k is, and has been for a while now as the numbers show.



Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/11 18:03:22


Post by: Aerethan


A few stores released 3 year top 10 sellers and WFB has fallen off that list in the last year.

It fluctuates at any rate, given edition releases and which armies come when.

It is certainly not dying.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/11 18:04:49


Post by: xxvaderxx


Tycho wrote:
Weren't Epic and Lord of The Rings?


No. Epic's heyday was back when you could still by SpaceHulk in toy stores and GW sold several other board games in addition to Fantasy and 40k. Epic, like Blood Bowl, was a popular product, but not a flagship. LoTR was just suppose to be a cash cow.

Here's my question - Is Fantasy really dropping off? At least where I am, there's more Fantasy players (almost 2 or 3 to one ratio) than even 40k players. I'm sure on the whole, 40k probably has much bigger sales numbers, but what makes you think Fantasy is dying?


Anecdotal data provided on different ocations by several store owners and GW own admition that is does not make a significant part of their revenew, at least not significant enough as to bunch it up with everything else that is not 40k

But i do agree as long as it is not in the RED, they are unlikely to axe it. Question is, how far away from it, it is?.



Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/11 18:08:22


Post by: Platuan4th


According to the number collectors(ICv2) for the US, Fantasy is still the #4 selling non-collectible miniatures line as of 2012. There's no way GW's dropping that.

Edit: found the latest, it actually slipped to number 4, X-wing blazed through the list last Fall to take #2 from Warmachine.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/11 18:08:43


Post by: Alfndrate


xxvaderxx wrote:
12thRonin wrote:
They could, but they won't. It is a flagship product.


Fantasy is certainly NOT their flagship product, 40k is, and has been for a while now as the numbers show.



It is a flagship product, not the flagship product.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/11 18:17:47


Post by: Fezman


Well, they're not going to just ditch one of their best known brands. Even if 40K is the most popular, that doesn't mean dropping WHFB is going to mean all those WHFB players just go over to 40K. There are people who play both, and people who only play one game and ignore the other.

I honestly think that GW would not benefit in any way at all if they dropped WHFB, and I also don't think they have any need to.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/11 18:21:22


Post by: FarseerAndyMan


Fantasy NEEDS a total re-vamp.

The rules are set up to reward the model purchaser, not the model player.

I know its a miniature game, and GW is in the business of selling miniatures, but if no-one wants to play the GAME, no one will buy the MINIATURES.

Toumas Perinin wrote the most comprehensive set of WFB rules to date.

But will GW dump Fantasy? -- NOPE.
They use fantasy to test out the new concepts for 40k.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/11 18:23:55


Post by: SoloFalcon1138


ahhh, this thread again...

Look, GW can do whatever it wants with its products. Just because certain stores are not seeing it move off the shelves doesn't mean it doesn't sell, it just means they aren't selling it there. Fantasy was big in my area, then it dropped off after 8th. Maybe poor timing, maybe bad version, who knows?


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/11 18:24:05


Post by: AustonT


GW will reinvent fantasy as much as they have to; they will not drop it. Whoever said it was a flagship product was right; maybe not in sales but in recognition.
Anyone remember Warmaster? It was like Epic but WHFB...and died a well deserved death long ago. 40k being immensely more popular is not a new thing.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/11 18:29:27


Post by: ProtoClone


They would be stupid to drop WHFB...any company would be stupid to drop one of their two biggest products.

The game would have to hit a major low, 0% sales despite revamps, for them to consider dropping it, in my honest opinion.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/11 18:54:12


Post by: MajorStoffer


Generally speaking, I think that 40k has a more broad appeal than fantasy. It's more unique in its aesthetic, fluff and gameplay. Locally, most stores have a significantly larger 40k playerbase with a single exception. At the store I frequent, there's a fantasy game once every month, sometimes less, with a half dozen people owning a single army. The 40k crowd is over 40, with many owning multiple armies, and the product movement reflects this.

At the end of the day, Fantasy is the more expensive game to get in to, the current edition is overly reliant on the magic phase, and the core gameplay can be experienced in a wide variety of cheaper mediums, whether that be historical wargames, or computer games (The Total War series combat mechanics are almost the exact same, just more intricate).

40k is cheaper, faster and, I feel, a more dynamic game to play. That doesn't mean, however, fantasy is going to be dropped.

The rumourmill is indicating fantasy is being condensed; bulk army books and the like, and GW has been heavily favouring 40k in this release cycle. I think GW is finally willing to admit, at least to itself, that fantasy isn't #1 anymore; they're not going to axe it, but I also don't think they're willing to invest the time and money in reinvigorating it at this point.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/11 19:01:26


Post by: RatBot


Sure, they could. Absolutely.

They won't, though. Like others have said, they'd most likely attempt to give it a big shot in the arm with a new edition than kill it off. If they DID axe it, they would be axing one of their two biggest IPs and I think it would send a terrible sign to investors.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/11 19:21:58


Post by: Vulcan


Sure GW can axe fantasy. And you better believe other companies will move into the void but quick, to pick up all the disgruntled WFB players.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/11 19:47:40


Post by: Peregrine


 RatBot wrote:
If they DID axe it, they would be axing one of their two biggest IPs and I think it would send a terrible sign to investors.


This is the most important factor. GW can get away with dumping the specialist games because, whether or not an informed investor would see it as a stupid move, they can just present it as "cleaning up redundant product lines" or whatever. And most of their investors don't care enough to dig deeply into the company and consider what potential for a re-launch may or may not have existed, and whether GW's neglect of the line was a good thing. But if GW drops a "core" game there's no way to make it look good and even a casual look at the company will have the investors worrying.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/11 19:49:26


Post by: sourclams


 Vulcan wrote:
Sure GW can axe fantasy. And you better believe other companies will move into the void but quick, to pick up all the disgruntled WFB players.


Privateer Press already seems to have done this in a big way. Warmachine/Hordes have gone from unranked to higher-than-Fantasy in the last 5 years or so.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/12 08:09:15


Post by: Fenrir Kitsune


 AustonT wrote:
Anyone remember Warmaster? It was like Epic but WHFB...and died a well deserved death long ago.


Why a well deserved death? The game was solid with a great ruleset. It just wasn't supported properly by the company and left in a corner whilst they pushed the 28mm version.

Fantasy won't be going anywhere, regardless of how bad the sales get. They'll just keep revamping it with rule patches and trying to make it more appealing.

Make a fantasy set skirmish game to get people buying the minis and into the setting, then they could build up to a small fantasy army & work from there. Something like Mordheim maybe....................


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/12 09:35:35


Post by: Grimtuff


 SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
ahhh, this thread again...

Look, GW can do whatever it wants with its products. Just because certain stores are not seeing it move off the shelves doesn't mean it doesn't sell, it just means they aren't selling it there. Fantasy was big in my area, then it dropped off after 8th. Maybe poor timing, maybe bad version, who knows?


Ahhh, this comment again....

Solo, you know what you don't have to do; right?


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/12 09:55:25


Post by: master of ordinance


If they did then they would be commiting coporate suicide. Fantasy, even with the current "randomhammer" rules set is still a core game and very much played. Dropping it would be like cutting off there left arm and right leg.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/12 10:51:13


Post by: pgmason


Most of the people talking about a drop off in Fantasy seem to be from America. Locally to me (Southampton, UK) I've seen a renewed interest since 8th - lots of older players (from 3rd,4th&5th) returning and a fair few new starters.

I think over here 8th has sold pretty well. It's probably very variable dependent on local factors.



Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/12 11:56:55


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Epic was core.

Anyway, no, they won't cut Fantasy. I just can't see it.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/12 12:01:54


Post by: cerbrus2


pgmason wrote:
Most of the people talking about a drop off in Fantasy seem to be from America. Locally to me (Southampton, UK) I've seen a renewed interest since 8th - lots of older players (from 3rd,4th&5th) returning and a fair few new starters.

I think over here 8th has sold pretty well. It's probably very variable dependent on local factors.



A fellow Southampton person

I think Fantasy is very popular over here, at the gaming club I go to most of the battle being played are always fantasy. I think that the recent releases of All the new 40K stuff is making it seem as though Fantasy is falling by the way side as it is being overshadowed by these new releases. But I cant see GW ever getting rid of it, there are far to many Fantasy players out there.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/12 12:18:23


Post by: Easy E


Epic was a flagship before, and then it got reduced and now removed when it did not sell as expected. The same could happen to any game system.

However, I think GW would put a bit of work into trying to "save" it first. Too many resources have already been put into the product as sunk costs.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/12 12:21:02


Post by: Gandohar


I can't imagine it would ever be axed. At most they might scale back releases and development of it but it is still the flagship product and still a huge seller.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/12 14:36:24


Post by: orkybenji


I think it needs streamlining and a lower entry cost. It is still popular in many areas. Near me there's a store with a large, healthy Fantasy crowd, but a poor 40k crowd.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/12 15:55:41


Post by: sourclams


They kinda run out of flagship products if they just keep slicing game systems off. I think sheer inertia prevents them from ever axing fantasy. Cutting fantasy would basically be this giant admission that GW is in full on death spiral.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/12 17:57:37


Post by: Lanrak


The problem is there are lots of alternative game systems for 'generic fantasy minatures.'

So when GW get too focused on short term returns, there are options for disgruntled for fantasy players to move to.(KoW and AoA for example.)

GW dare not let go of WHFB,as it would be too hard to explain away to share holders as stated before.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/12 18:50:03


Post by: judgedoug


Tycho wrote:
Weren't Epic and Lord of The Rings?


No. Epic's heyday was back when you could still by SpaceHulk in toy stores and GW sold several other board games in addition to Fantasy and 40k. Epic, like Blood Bowl, was a popular product, but not a flagship


Uhhh... that doesn't sound right at all. Epic was part of the big three, for ten years, starting with Adeptus Titanicus in 1988 through Space Marine 1st edition (1989), Space Marine 2nd edition (1991), and then Titan Legions (1994), before the utter ruination of it due to Epic 40k (1997). At Games Day '96, there were more Epic events than Warhammer Fantasy, with several Titan Bring N' Battle tables (every kill you got a free blister, I got a bunch of troll slayers if I remember correctly)


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/12 19:27:45


Post by: JWhex


GW is not getting the same return on its investment with fantasy as it is with 40k, that is not in dispute. Some people who have a good track record on rumours have predicted really big changes for fantasy when 9th edition is released. Could be a watershed moment for fantasy.

GW has invested a lot of money in plastic miniatures development for fantasy, as long as the line is profitable I dont see them abandoning it.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/12 19:48:34


Post by: Easy E


JWhex wrote:
GW has invested a lot of money in plastic miniatures development for fantasy, as long as the line is profitable I dont see them abandoning it.


So, it could be axed then.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/12 20:27:27


Post by: JWhex


 Easy E wrote:
JWhex wrote:
GW has invested a lot of money in plastic miniatures development for fantasy, as long as the line is profitable I dont see them abandoning it.


So, it could be axed then.


Sure, any line that is unprofitable with no foreseeable hope of profit should be axed. I dont think there is any evidence to suggest that is presently the case with fantasy. Just because it is under performing compared to 40k doesnt mean it is not worthwhile to the company.

Fantasy has been neglected for a very long time, GW has let the product stagnate. It took them forever to release a meaningful number of armybooks for the current edition. A lot of people attribute lost sales to warmachine, which I am sure is true but a lot of the older players in my local area that left fantasy went to Flames of War. I expect a few of those will eventually return to whfb. I wouldnt generalize too much about players going from whfb to FoW because my local area is really into FoW in a big way even though it is starting to taper off some.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/12 20:38:09


Post by: Enigwolf


A quick glance at GW's Investor Relations page tells us that Warhammer 40,000 and Warhammer Fantasy are their two main flagship product lines. Nowhere else, without going into the annual and half-annual reports, mentions their other specialist games by name. Can they? Sure, but it'd be like intentionally chopping off one hand that still works fine.

xxvaderxx, you are mistaking the "Other" segment in their financial reports. The "Other" market segment covers Forge World, Black Library, and Warhammer World. Warhammer World is their physical location in Nottingham, UK, not WHFB. In fact, their report for 2012 indicates that the addition of the Warhammer Forge line to Forge World had been well-received and generated a fresh influx of revenues into that market segment. If anything, this is an indication that WHFB is still alive and kicking, thriving even.

Unless anyone else has data besides anecdotal store information from a handful of places, there is no concrete data to indicate that WHFB is underperforming or decreasing in sales and popularity.



Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/12 23:46:31


Post by: -Loki-


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Epic was core.


The difference between cutting Epic as a Core game and Fantasy as a Core game is cutting Epic didn't cut the 40k IP from their flagship titles. They still had 28mm 40k. Cutting Fantasy would mean cutting their WHFB IP from their flagship games, which as one of their 2 homegrown IP's, would deservedly be very worrying to investors, as already said.

Basically, vutting Epic dropped a game. Cutting WHFB would basically be dropping an IP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Easy E wrote:
JWhex wrote:
GW has invested a lot of money in plastic miniatures development for fantasy, as long as the line is profitable I dont see them abandoning it.


So, it could be axed then.


You're confusing wildly popular with profitable. Even if Fantasy isn't in the top 10 games played, the fact that so much of it is in plastic means that it very definitely could still be profitable. Once the models are in plastic, producing them is cheap as chips, and plastic molds aren't quite as expensive to make these days as they used to be.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/12 23:59:01


Post by: JWhex


 Enigwolf wrote:


Unless anyone else has data besides anecdotal store information from a handful of places, there is no concrete data to indicate that WHFB is underperforming or decreasing in sales and popularity.



There is a market survey that has been posted several times in other threads that shows Warmachine ahead of whfb in the North American market. So then Warmachine went from zero sales a few years ago to better than whfb. I think we can assume that there has been a drop in whfb popularity.

In my local area whfb seems to be gaining some traction again, last week's local tournament sold out even after making room for more people to sign up. I think 30+ played and more than 40 wanted to. Not bad for a local 3 game tourney. I just hope that 9th edition attracts rather than repels players when it comes out.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/13 00:39:33


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 -Loki- wrote:

The difference between cutting Epic as a Core game and Fantasy as a Core game is cutting Epic didn't cut the 40k IP from their flagship titles. They still had 28mm 40k. Cutting Fantasy would mean cutting their WHFB IP from their flagship games, which as one of their 2 homegrown IP's, would deservedly be very worrying to investors, as already said.

Basically, vutting Epic dropped a game. Cutting WHFB would basically be dropping an IP.


Oh I understand that. My point was more that Epic was a core game, and not a specialist or side game like all the other side games of that era (Blood Bowl, Necromunda, Mordheim, etc.). Of course dropping it (or destroying it, really, with Epic 40,000) didn't kill an IP, it just removed a game. That's why I can't see them removing Fantasy, because if they remove it they have nothing using the Warhammer World, and that won't happen.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/13 01:13:30


Post by: kb305


fantasy just seems like too much work.

who wants to paint that much crap and then screw around making sure it all ranks up? who wants to transport all that crap? not me.

i think theyre in danger of turning off 40k players if they keep trying to push the model count.



Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/13 01:48:01


Post by: TheAuldGrump


I... think that WHFB needs an overhaul, which is sad, given how recently it was revised.

Most of the fantasy miniatures players that I know have migrated to KoW, largely because they dislike the WHFB 8 rules so very much.

But my local group has long played more WHFB than 40K, and still plays Battlesystem, from way back when. Heck, I can sometimes find players for WHFB 3 (my favorite WH).... it is not the fantasy part of the game that is making them leave.

There is just something... missing? in the rules.

The Auld Grump


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/13 02:01:55


Post by: AllSeeingSkink


kb305 wrote:
fantasy just seems like too much work.

who wants to paint that much crap and then screw around making sure it all ranks up? who wants to transport all that crap? not me.

i think theyre in danger of turning off 40k players if they keep trying to push the model count.

It was a lot nicer when models didn't overhang their bases. It doesn't take a genius to figure out if you make models larger than their bases, they won't rank up easily. One that particularly annoys me is that even if models rank up easily, so often they overhang the FRONT of their base, so that so many regiments in Fantasy can't actually be moved in to base to base contact for combat.

But I have always found Fantasy to be a more satisfying game than 40k, I haven't really played 8th edition which brought in a lot of changes I didn't like, but overall I think regiment based games make for better actual games.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/13 02:09:32


Post by: John Rainbow


Simple answer, no.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/13 04:01:17


Post by: Adam LongWalker


JWhex wrote:
GW is not getting the same return on its investment with fantasy as it is with 40k, that is not in dispute. Some people who have a good track record on rumours have predicted really big changes for fantasy when 9th edition is released. Could be a watershed moment for fantasy.

GW has invested a lot of money in plastic miniatures development for fantasy, as long as the line is profitable I dont see them abandoning it.



What happens to the big fish in the small pond when the pond water runs dry? You get one big dead fish that is eaten up by other predators.

Regardless if 9th is Awesome or not. People voted with their wallet on 8th. You are not going to get all of those customers that GW pissed off. They either left the hobby all together or went to another game system.

Never piss off your customer base for they have long memories oh how much of a Gak your company is.




Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/13 05:34:05


Post by: JWhex


 Adam LongWalker wrote:
JWhex wrote:
GW is not getting the same return on its investment with fantasy as it is with 40k, that is not in dispute. Some people who have a good track record on rumours have predicted really big changes for fantasy when 9th edition is released. Could be a watershed moment for fantasy.

GW has invested a lot of money in plastic miniatures development for fantasy, as long as the line is profitable I dont see them abandoning it.



What happens to the big fish in the small pond when the pond water runs dry? You get one big dead fish that is eaten up by other predators.

Regardless if 9th is Awesome or not. People voted with their wallet on 8th. You are not going to get all of those customers that GW pissed off. They either left the hobby all together or went to another game system.

Never piss off your customer base for they have long memories oh how much of a Gak your company is.




Well not always, the lungfish excretes a mucous coating that hardens and it buries itself in the mud were it can survive for years. Also there are killifish in Africa that have desication resistant eggs and of course there are catfish and snakehead fish that can migrate over land if their ponds dry up or are treated with poison.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/13 05:53:11


Post by: Enigwolf


JWhex wrote:
 Enigwolf wrote:


Unless anyone else has data besides anecdotal store information from a handful of places, there is no concrete data to indicate that WHFB is underperforming or decreasing in sales and popularity.



There is a market survey that has been posted several times in other threads that shows Warmachine ahead of whfb in the North American market. So then Warmachine went from zero sales a few years ago to better than whfb. I think we can assume that there has been a drop in whfb popularity.

In my local area whfb seems to be gaining some traction again, last week's local tournament sold out even after making room for more people to sign up. I think 30+ played and more than 40 wanted to. Not bad for a local 3 game tourney. I just hope that 9th edition attracts rather than repels players when it comes out.


I've seen the threads. Unfortunately those "datasets" (if they are even worthy of the title) are not a representative sample of the entire population of WHFB sales to show statistical significance and a high correlation coefficient between an increase in Warmachine sales and a decrease in WHFB popularity. It's a false assumption made under a logical fallacy. Until someone does a market study of the entire hobby games market, we're not going to know how 40k and WHFB are performing relative to other games. But of course, GW is still turning far higher profits with their core lines and even if you divide them up, their revenues are still way higher than Warmachine's, I would bet.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/13 06:05:44


Post by: Dakkamite


If they drop Fantasy it'll just keep being played by grognards in my area for the foreseeable future.

They'd also have to be money-hating idiots not to just sell the franchise. Luckily they only tick one of those boxes.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/13 06:24:46


Post by: Howard A Treesong


Like 40K GW have pushed for bigger and bigger armies in Fantasy, but the problem with Fantasy is that the majority of units are generic fantasy which can be easily substituted with other much cheaper plastic units from other manufacturers. GW make an almost generic product and charge the earth for it. Other than the brand name of 'Games Workshop' being on it I'm not sure that Fantasy has going for it.

It still sells quite well, they'd be mad to drop it given that a large number of GW customers but only Fantasy and not 40k. But it does seen the most vulnerable of the games to competition. That's GW's fault though, having a game rooted in generic ideas but charging prices like they have exclusivity on making skeletons and elves.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/13 07:58:31


Post by: V1ND4LOO


Doubtful, they're still putting lots of money into it.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/13 11:37:48


Post by: Shandara


Falling sales might prompt GW to design a game that people want to play and can afford to get into without selling a kidney. It might influence 40k positively too (instead of the bigger is better releases).

Them axing it would basically mean they admit they can't. Not a good sign for us and towards investors.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/13 12:35:39


Post by: Azazelx


It's often been observed in the past that WFB is far more popular in Europe than it is in the US. The sales figures given all seem to be anecdotal and mostly US-based.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/13 13:19:09


Post by: pgmason


I'd say its UK rather than Europe as a whole. But then their market penetration in the UK is much more dominant than elsewhere.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/13 13:48:04


Post by: Shaozun


Possibly. They axed specialist stuff and licensed them out as video games.

Warhammer gets a steady stream of video games (much more than W40k does), and with a total war style game coming out from Creative Assembly themselves it could be on the cards.

Although I doubt it. Also, anyone else see the W40k MMO?


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/13 14:23:21


Post by: JWhex


 Howard A Treesong wrote:
Like 40K GW have pushed for bigger and bigger armies in Fantasy, but the problem with Fantasy is that the majority of units are generic fantasy which can be easily substituted with other much cheaper plastic units from other manufacturers. GW make an almost generic product and charge the earth for it. Other than the brand name of 'Games Workshop' being on it I'm not sure that Fantasy has going for it.

It still sells quite well, they'd be mad to drop it given that a large number of GW customers but only Fantasy and not 40k. But it does seen the most vulnerable of the games to competition. That's GW's fault though, having a game rooted in generic ideas but charging prices like they have exclusivity on making skeletons and elves.


There really is not a comprehensive range of cheap plastic miniatures that are nearly as good as what GW produces. Mantic undead are decent but their elves suck and I am not too keen on their dwarf range. I have yet to see an army at a tournament that wasnt 90 % GW and the tournaments around here have not been run by GW for many, many years.

There are many excellent nonGW miniature makers, but you wont find a cheap army that looks half decent. I have started a Korean theme Empire counts as army with Perry Bro, miniatures, but it is getting to be hella expensive.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/13 14:32:20


Post by: Consul Scipio


JWhex wrote:
There are many excellent nonGW miniature makers, but you wont find a cheap army that looks half decent. I have started a Korean theme Empire counts as army with Perry Bro, miniatures, but it is getting to be hella expensive.
<Consul Scipio looks over at his massive stack of Perry Choeson Koreans in need of an excuse to finish> JWhex, you sir get an internet cookie for such a good idea and inspiring me to finish this great looking range of miniatures. Thank you.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/13 14:34:00


Post by: PhantomViper


 Azazelx wrote:
It's often been observed in the past that WFB is far more popular in Europe than it is in the US. The sales figures given all seem to be anecdotal and mostly US-based.


In the way way past.

Ever since 8th edition was released the trend that WHFB was more popular than 40k has been reversed.

Practically every WHFB over here has gone over to either WMH or FoW.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/13 17:07:03


Post by: spaceelf


If GW were to axe Fantasy, I think that they would reduce the production of new plastic kits for the range. Look at the Hobbit. See much plastic stuff coming out? I would expect Fantasy to be reduced to similar levels years before they would axe the game. GW could also produce more kits that can be used in Fantasy and 40k. Those kits would still give them a return on investment if they cut Fantasy.

The way things are now, I do not see them cutting Fantasy any time soon. It earns them plenty of money, just not as much as 40k.

In defense of those who think Fantasy will be cut, GW is not making new plastic versions of basic troops for many of its armies. Many of the old sculpts are bad and should be updated. However, GW has decided not to make the investment.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/13 17:10:40


Post by: Gearhead


I was always under the impression that 40K was the big thing in the US, and WFB was the big thing everywhere else (or at least Europe...)


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/13 17:33:05


Post by: Harriticus


They've been invested too much in Fantasy lately to drop it. Though a lot of what GW does makes little sense financially, so who knows.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/13 19:34:42


Post by: JWhex


 Consul Scipio wrote:
JWhex wrote:
There are many excellent nonGW miniature makers, but you wont find a cheap army that looks half decent. I have started a Korean theme Empire counts as army with Perry Bro, miniatures, but it is getting to be hella expensive.
<Consul Scipio looks over at his massive stack of Perry Choeson Koreans in need of an excuse to finish> JWhex, you sir get an internet cookie for such a good idea and inspiring me to finish this great looking range of miniatures. Thank you.


Yeah those figs are awesome, now if I could just figure out how to use my 28 mm scale resin Turtle Boat in Warhammer I would be set.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/14 02:51:15


Post by: -Loki-


JWhex wrote:
 Consul Scipio wrote:
JWhex wrote:
There are many excellent nonGW miniature makers, but you wont find a cheap army that looks half decent. I have started a Korean theme Empire counts as army with Perry Bro, miniatures, but it is getting to be hella expensive.
<Consul Scipio looks over at his massive stack of Perry Choeson Koreans in need of an excuse to finish> JWhex, you sir get an internet cookie for such a good idea and inspiring me to finish this great looking range of miniatures. Thank you.


Yeah those figs are awesome, now if I could just figure out how to use my 28 mm scale resin Turtle Boat in Warhammer I would be set.


Steam Tank? Land Ship?


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/14 06:51:07


Post by: lord_blackfang


Is WH Fantasy really still being played in places?

I haven't seen a game of it played in at least 2 years. And it used to be bigger than everything else put together.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/14 07:48:13


Post by: Enigwolf


 lord_blackfang wrote:
Is WH Fantasy really still being played in places?

I haven't seen a game of it played in at least 2 years. And it used to be bigger than everything else put together.


Yes. More frequently than 40k sometimes in my FLGS.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/18 17:09:32


Post by: Vulcan


 sourclams wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:
Sure GW can axe fantasy. And you better believe other companies will move into the void but quick, to pick up all the disgruntled WFB players.


Privateer Press already seems to have done this in a big way. Warmachine/Hordes have gone from unranked to higher-than-Fantasy in the last 5 years or so.


True.

Now how 'bout something for those of us who prefer line of battle to skirmish, and prefer fantasy to steampunk?


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/18 23:28:56


Post by: -Loki-


 lord_blackfang wrote:
Is WH Fantasy really still being played in places?

I haven't seen a game of it played in at least 2 years. And it used to be bigger than everything else put together.


No, you're right. The fact that you haven't seen a game in stores or clubs you frequent is totally representative of the entire world, and GW have been doing huge updates to Fantasy ranges in the hopes that, one day, some day, someone will buy a Fantasy kit.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/19 02:03:08


Post by: Relapse


 Cyporiean wrote:
12thRonin wrote:
They could, but they won't. It is a flagship product.


Weren't Epic and Lord of The Rings?

Granted LOTR 'became' The Hobbit, but still.


Epic was featured in old White Dwarf magazines almost as heavily as Fantasy and 40K and had a fair sized amount of store space devoted to it.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/19 03:21:53


Post by: -Loki-


Relapse wrote:
 Cyporiean wrote:
12thRonin wrote:
They could, but they won't. It is a flagship product.


Weren't Epic and Lord of The Rings?

Granted LOTR 'became' The Hobbit, but still.


Epic was featured in old White Dwarf magazines almost as heavily as Fantasy and 40K and had a fair sized amount of store space devoted to it.


Again, if you missed it earlier - cutting Epic didn't cut 40k as an IP, they still had a game in that setting. Cutting Warhammer Fantasy is completely different, because it's the only game they currently sell in that universe. So they're effectively be giving up the Fantasy IP if they drop Fantasy Battles. The sole reason they won't do it is because of that - and shareholders would hate to see a yearly report that says 'we gave up 1/3 of our IP', when their IP is their most valuable asset.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/19 05:23:37


Post by: Ailaros


If WHFB is really declining, it's because of things that GW has done on purpose, or, rather, what they haven't.

40k has tons of books, and RPGs, and movies, and video games about it. GW spends way more focus (and money) advertising and making content for 40k while doing much, much less for WHFB. Of course fantasy is going to suffer if they don't give it very much attention (and take what attention they did have and peel it off towards their other fantasy game in a desperate bid to make it profitable).

It's not so much a problem with fantasy being bad, so much as it not being played up as much of late.




Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/19 08:23:26


Post by: Elemental


 Ailaros wrote:
If WHFB is really declining, it's because of things that GW has done on purpose, or, rather, what they haven't.

40k has tons of books, and RPGs, and movies, and video games about it. GW spends way more focus (and money) advertising and making content for 40k while doing much, much less for WHFB. Of course fantasy is going to suffer if they don't give it very much attention (and take what attention they did have and peel it off towards their other fantasy game in a desperate bid to make it profitable).

It's not so much a problem with fantasy being bad, so much as it not being played up as much of late.


Which is pretty much the same vicious circle that happened to Specialist Games and various languishing armies in 40K and WHF. Lack of updates & promotion from GW leads to less attention from the players, meaning less sales, so less attention from GW compared to the latest Space Marines.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/19 08:30:11


Post by: Shandara


Eventually they will end up with only 40k with Space Marines as their 'core' game.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/19 09:26:51


Post by: Baragash


 Shandara wrote:
Eventually they will end up with only 40k with Space Marines as their 'core' game.


Switch Xenos production to FW and Horus Heresy to the studio and they're there...... I'm almost surprised they haven't done it already so they can just stick to making plastic Space Marine kits.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/20 01:15:55


Post by: -Loki-


 Shandara wrote:
Eventually they will end up with only 40k with Space Marines as their 'core' game.


Old joke is old.

GW have been giving other armies the lions share of attention in 6th edition, with only one Space Marine book in the first 5 releases (well, two if you count Chaos Marines), with the other made up of Daemons and xenos. The historacally predictable first codex being vanilla Space Marines was shuffled down to book six. Space marines are an important part of 40k to GW, but they've not been giving them the attention this edition - it's almost like they listened to fans who were screaming 'update the bloody xenos!'.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/20 07:28:06


Post by: Kaptajn Congoboy


Vulcan wrote:
Now how 'bout something for those of us who prefer line of battle to skirmish, and prefer fantasy to steampunk?


I recommend you play a game that actually gives you the opportunity to enact linear tactics, changing the scale as well to 10mm or similar in the process. WHFB, while certainly a popular game, is a pretty poor attempt at giving you lines of battle. Most reenactment skirmish battles I attend have more people fighting than there are models in a WHFB battle - WHFB is a skirmish game. And no, 1 model does not represent 10 men under the current ruleset.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/20 09:52:45


Post by: Fenrir Kitsune


 -Loki- wrote:
 Shandara wrote:
Eventually they will end up with only 40k with Space Marines as their 'core' game.


Old joke is old.

GW have been giving other armies the lions share of attention in 6th edition, with only one Space Marine book in the first 5 releases (well, two if you count Chaos Marines), with the other made up of Daemons and xenos. The historacally predictable first codex being vanilla Space Marines was shuffled down to book six. Space marines are an important part of 40k to GW, but they've not been giving them the attention this edition - it's almost like they listened to fans who were screaming 'update the bloody xenos!'.


I thought Dark Angels were the first codex? Looks like a space marine release to me.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/20 10:06:58


Post by: Steve steveson


Fenrir Kitsune wrote:
 -Loki- wrote:
 Shandara wrote:
Eventually they will end up with only 40k with Space Marines as their 'core' game.


Old joke is old.

GW have been giving other armies the lions share of attention in 6th edition, with only one Space Marine book in the first 5 releases (well, two if you count Chaos Marines), with the other made up of Daemons and xenos. The historacally predictable first codex being vanilla Space Marines was shuffled down to book six. Space marines are an important part of 40k to GW, but they've not been giving them the attention this edition - it's almost like they listened to fans who were screaming 'update the bloody xenos!'.


I thought Dark Angels were the first codex? Looks like a space marine release to me.


No... It was CSM


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/20 10:14:09


Post by: caledoneus


 Vulcan wrote:
Sure GW can axe fantasy. And you better believe other companies will move into the void but quick, to pick up all the disgruntled WFB players.


I'm sure Mantic would absolutely love it if they did... b/c all those fantasy players would probably move over to KOW... KOW is actually a pretty fun ruleset to play.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/21 12:36:24


Post by: captain collius


pgmason wrote:
Most of the people talking about a drop off in Fantasy seem to be from America. Locally to me (Southampton, UK) I've seen a renewed interest since 8th - lots of older players (from 3rd,4th&5th) returning and a fair few new starters.

I think over here 8th has sold pretty well. It's probably very variable dependent on local factors.



Its actually very regional in my experience at our GW if you want a game of 40k you have to schedule it ahead of time if you want a game of fantasy just walk in. The rules don't prevent people from bringing 40k just no one does.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/21 13:30:53


Post by: Acardia


In the midwest Fantasy is huge.

At least once a month there is a large 2 day event in a 4-5 hour drive from me. Today I'm driving to one in Chicago that has 90 players. Registration filled up in December.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/21 15:28:50


Post by: pities2004


Fantasy is booming in Arizona, gotta love conspiracy theories on GW axing WHFB


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/21 15:36:13


Post by: kirsanth


Even if x outsold y, it does not mean that y is not profitable.

Random anecdote:
With my having switched primarily to Fantasy, its popularity here has gone up infinitely.

Fact.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/21 16:28:39


Post by: Mountain-Breaker


I am sure it is posdible. However it would be a huge mistake. I prefer Fantasy over 40k, I think that really, everything is better. Rules, armies, Lore, the games. Getting rid of Fantasy wouldnr make more 40k players, it would just lose players overall and be cause for a great deal of negative publicity. Of course, there are plenty of people including myself who play both, but I would definitely not be as willing to give my money to GW if they had gotten rid of my favorite game.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/21 16:49:41


Post by: Enigwolf


 Mountain-Breaker wrote:
I am sure it is posdible. However it would be a huge mistake. I prefer Fantasy over 40k, I think that really, everything is better. Rules, armies, Lore, the games. Getting rid of Fantasy wouldnr make more 40k players, it would just lose players overall and be cause for a great deal of negative publicity. Of course, there are plenty of people including myself who play both, but I would definitely not be as willing to give my money to GW if they had gotten rid of my favorite game.


Rules, really? This is the first time I've heard of that...


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/21 17:06:13


Post by: Mountain-Breaker


Yeah, or at least, compared to the current edition. Personally I think there is way too much going on. Dont get me wrong, I like the 40k rules, but there is a great deal of small inbetween type rules. I also dont like the flyers, thats just me.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/21 18:48:12


Post by: Tanakosyke22


 Acardia wrote:
In the midwest Fantasy is huge.

At least once a month there is a large 2 day event in a 4-5 hour drive from me. Today I'm driving to one in Chicago that has 90 players. Registration filled up in December.


I have to ask, what LGS do you go to? The GW I used to go to and the FLGS I go to now, Fantasy at best was either having a few player playing it or not at all (then again, this is where I go again I guess)...


To the topic, yeah GW could try to axe and drop the product, but it does have a good investment in it so it would be shooting itself in the foot to the shareholders and competition.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/21 19:49:52


Post by: DukeRustfield


Here's the deal. GW is a corporation. For it to make decisions, they have to make business sense.

Right now it has multiple game products. If you get burnt-out on one game, you can go over to another and still be feeding them $. If you look at peoples' signatures, you will see 40K and Fantasy in the same forums. That is great news for GW. If a bad release of 40K comes out (or WHFB), those players are gone and may not come back if they don't have another game to go to in the same company.

Likewise, they are paying for stores. They are leasing them. Which is a huge cost. They have floor space to fill. They can't go to the mall owners and say, "we'd like to pay 25% less rent because we are no longer using part of our store." That's a fixed price. And I haven't seen many stores that are just dying for space. Gamers don't mind tight corners.

Most importantly is models. We live in a smart fulfillment era. They know what models sell and are back-ordered. Especially with online ordering. I'm pretty certain they don't have 10 warehouses with boxes stacked up to the ceiling, hoping and praying people will order them. They know the hot sellers and which ones are snatched up each month. And when they fall below a certain threshold, they make more. I.e., there isn't a huge cost associated with having a model available because they don't have to store it long.

tl;dr - there is almost no reason to shut it down. The costs have to be > than the profits for them to do so, and at this point that is pretty inconceivable. The crossover ability of players to move from one game to another is a very strong motivator itself. I started with 40K...


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/21 21:02:59


Post by: Vulcan


Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:
Vulcan wrote:
Now how 'bout something for those of us who prefer line of battle to skirmish, and prefer fantasy to steampunk?


I recommend you play a game that actually gives you the opportunity to enact linear tactics, changing the scale as well to 10mm or similar in the process. WHFB, while certainly a popular game, is a pretty poor attempt at giving you lines of battle. Most reenactment skirmish battles I attend have more people fighting than there are models in a WHFB battle - WHFB is a skirmish game. And no, 1 model does not represent 10 men under the current ruleset.


Agreed. I would prefer something a little more tactical than the current WFB rules set.

But even with those complaints, it's STILL a better 'line of battle' game than P3's offering, which is strictly a skirmish game with no blocks whatsoever.

I have no complaints with the MECHANICS of Warmachine/Hordes (aside from a total lack of restrictions on maneuver, the ultimate proof it is a skirmish game). It's the FLUFF that puts me off.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/22 02:40:42


Post by: JWhex


 caledoneus wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:
Sure GW can axe fantasy. And you better believe other companies will move into the void but quick, to pick up all the disgruntled WFB players.


I'm sure Mantic would absolutely love it if they did... b/c all those fantasy players would probably move over to KOW... KOW is actually a pretty fun ruleset to play.


It is debatable how many would switch to a game system that most players have never heard of. Some of the Mantic figures such as the elves are really crap as well.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/22 03:27:18


Post by: caledoneus


 Mountain-Breaker wrote:
I am sure it is posdible. However it would be a huge mistake. I prefer Fantasy over 40k, I think that really, everything is better. Rules, armies, Lore, the games. Getting rid of Fantasy wouldnr make more 40k players, it would just lose players overall and be cause for a great deal of negative publicity. Of course, there are plenty of people including myself who play both, but I would definitely not be as willing to give my money to GW if they had gotten rid of my favorite game.


Yeah, the theory seems to be from all the 40k guys that if they axed Fantasy then all the fantasy guys would just jump over to 40k, when in fact, they would more likely jump ship to a rival company (mantic, ect). Axing WHFB would be an absolutely idiotic move, and not very likely..


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/22 04:27:01


Post by: Mountain-Breaker


Exactly, I feel as though that would be most likely to happen, especially with the high prices for 40k, not to say that Fantasy is cheap, but that 40k is more expensive overall, and much greater an investment.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/22 07:34:38


Post by: Enigwolf


 caledoneus wrote:
 Mountain-Breaker wrote:
I am sure it is posdible. However it would be a huge mistake. I prefer Fantasy over 40k, I think that really, everything is better. Rules, armies, Lore, the games. Getting rid of Fantasy wouldnr make more 40k players, it would just lose players overall and be cause for a great deal of negative publicity. Of course, there are plenty of people including myself who play both, but I would definitely not be as willing to give my money to GW if they had gotten rid of my favorite game.


Yeah, the theory seems to be from all the 40k guys that if they axed Fantasy then all the fantasy guys would just jump over to 40k, when in fact, they would more likely jump ship to a rival company (mantic, ect). Axing WHFB would be an absolutely idiotic move, and not very likely..


"From all the 40k guys"? Whoa whoa whoa, broad sweeping generalization here much? I personally don't think it's gonna happen either, because players play where their interests lie. If you like medieval stuff, you're gonna go to WHFB. If that gets axed, you'll go to something else similar, not 40k.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/22 07:38:39


Post by: somewheresomehow


I doubt they would ever truly "axe" WHFB, but I could see it going the way of the SoB. It may be a flagship piece, but if it is neglected too long, it simply becomes an alternative sculpt for other game systems.

Also, it could be that GW internal reviewers of the line think that if the fantasy line goes either bust or belly up, that they will "retain" enough of their fantasy players by getting them to switch to 40k due to "brand loyalty."

I think if this is actually occuring (which we could never really know,) that the company is being fed bald-faced lies from the inside, and could be why they are neglecting Fantasy.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/22 19:43:18


Post by: Vulcan


JWhex wrote:
 caledoneus wrote:
 Vulcan wrote:
Sure GW can axe fantasy. And you better believe other companies will move into the void but quick, to pick up all the disgruntled WFB players.


I'm sure Mantic would absolutely love it if they did... b/c all those fantasy players would probably move over to KOW... KOW is actually a pretty fun ruleset to play.


It is debatable how many would switch to a game system that most players have never heard of. Some of the Mantic figures such as the elves are really crap as well.


Oh, agreed. But you could just as easily play Kings of War using your existing GW miniatures as you could use Kings of War miniatures for WFB...


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/22 20:13:48


Post by: Nitros14


Around here in Victoria B.C. 8th caused a surge of fantasy players. It's certainly more popular now than it ever has been here. Almost everyone owns a fantasy army. We got 60 players out to a local tournament.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/22 23:35:54


Post by: Color Sgt. Kell


 MajorStoffer wrote:
Generally speaking, I think that 40k has a more broad appeal than fantasy. It's more unique in its aesthetic, fluff and gameplay. Locally, most stores have a significantly larger 40k playerbase with a single exception. At the store I frequent, there's a fantasy game once every month, sometimes less, with a half dozen people owning a single army. The 40k crowd is over 40, with many owning multiple armies, and the product movement reflects this.

At the end of the day, Fantasy is the more expensive game to get in to, the current edition is overly reliant on the magic phase, and the core gameplay can be experienced in a wide variety of cheaper mediums, whether that be historical wargames, or computer games (The Total War series combat mechanics are almost the exact same, just more intricate).

40k is cheaper, faster and, I feel, a more dynamic game to play. That doesn't mean, however, fantasy is going to be dropped.

The rumourmill is indicating fantasy is being condensed; bulk army books and the like, and GW has been heavily favouring 40k in this release cycle. I think GW is finally willing to admit, at least to itself, that fantasy isn't #1 anymore; they're not going to axe it, but I also don't think they're willing to invest the time and money in reinvigorating it at this point.


This comment makes the most sense out of anyone's imho. At least for my area and my experience, this is completely true.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/23 03:16:10


Post by: Relapse


 -Loki- wrote:
Relapse wrote:
 Cyporiean wrote:
12thRonin wrote:
They could, but they won't. It is a flagship product.


Weren't Epic and Lord of The Rings?

Granted LOTR 'became' The Hobbit, but still.


Epic was featured in old White Dwarf magazines almost as heavily as Fantasy and 40K and had a fair sized amount of store space devoted to it.


Again, if you missed it earlier - cutting Epic didn't cut 40k as an IP, they still had a game in that setting. Cutting Warhammer Fantasy is completely different, because it's the only game they currently sell in that universe. So they're effectively be giving up the Fantasy IP if they drop Fantasy Battles. The sole reason they won't do it is because of that - and shareholders would hate to see a yearly report that says 'we gave up 1/3 of our IP', when their IP is their most valuable asset.



If that IP is losing them money, they'll axe it in a heartbeat. As I said earlier, Epic was making them good money back in the day and was considered their third core game. It doesn't matter to them if they don't have anything in Fantasy if they're losing money on it. They still have the copyrights on everything and could probably kick out a limited edition whatever every now and then to keep the copy right. That part is just a guess for me since I'm no expert in copy right law, but that seems to be the way I heard it goes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
DukeRustfield wrote:
Here's the deal. GW is a corporation. For it to make decisions, they have to make business sense.

Right now it has multiple game products. If you get burnt-out on one game, you can go over to another and still be feeding them $. If you look at peoples' signatures, you will see 40K and Fantasy in the same forums. That is great news for GW. If a bad release of 40K comes out (or WHFB), those players are gone and may not come back if they don't have another game to go to in the same company.

Likewise, they are paying for stores. They are leasing them. Which is a huge cost. They have floor space to fill. They can't go to the mall owners and say, "we'd like to pay 25% less rent because we are no longer using part of our store." That's a fixed price. And I haven't seen many stores that are just dying for space. Gamers don't mind tight corners.

Most importantly is models. We live in a smart fulfillment era. They know what models sell and are back-ordered. Especially with online ordering. I'm pretty certain they don't have 10 warehouses with boxes stacked up to the ceiling, hoping and praying people will order them. They know the hot sellers and which ones are snatched up each month. And when they fall below a certain threshold, they make more. I.e., there isn't a huge cost associated with having a model available because they don't have to store it long.

tl;dr - there is almost no reason to shut it down. The costs have to be > than the profits for them to do so, and at this point that is pretty inconceivable. The crossover ability of players to move from one game to another is a very strong motivator itself. I started with 40K...



That's pretty much, in my mind an accurate appraisal you put out.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/23 14:12:00


Post by: Haight


I personally can't see them axeing fantasy all together, because they'd essentially hand over that segment of the existing market (i.e. - fantasy playing mini's gamers) to their competitors in full.

If it's profitable (even marginally so in relation to fixed, controllable costs), i think they'll keep it up. That said, if it ever starts losing money, or if that market shrinks drastically (i don't think it will, but for the sake of argument) - yes i can see them putting a bullet in Fantasy.

GW isn't a company that strikes me as willing to let the profits of one product carry an unprofitable one. They have shareholders to answer to.


-- Haight


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/23 16:39:47


Post by: TheDungen


40k and fantasy have always shifted periodically in popularity, nothing new.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/23 17:57:53


Post by: thedarkavenger


Could GW axe fantasy? Yes.

Will GW axe fantasy? No.


Question answered. Thread over.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/23 20:49:22


Post by: DukeRustfield


Another thing besides Teh Game is the Intellectual Property. They have decades of value invested in the IP that is fantasy. IP tends to carry more value than the main product nowadays through licensing.

I'm betting they make a ton more money licensing 40K stuff than they do selling models for it.

Fantasy isn't nearly in as good a shape in that regards, but if they stopped the game, they cut off the potential for selling anything else around it. The fact there is brand awareness around Witch Hunters and Altdorf and Chaos Wastes and Slann is a huge deal. Companies die to try and build that kind of following. It's why Lord of the Rings could be a zillion dollar franchise and Master of the Neclaces won't ever get made, because the IP around Tolkien is gigantic.

Even when (computer) games aren't successful they are still paid a licensing fee for the honor of trying.

Put another way, if for whatever insane reason GW was going to shutter fantasy, another company would buy the IP. It is simply too valuable to cease to exist even if you never made models. You can cancel Blood Bowl or whatever individual games, but they're going to keep all that IP and release novels and comp games and whatever.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/23 21:23:24


Post by: Enigwolf


DukeRustfield wrote:

I'm betting they make a ton more money licensing 40K stuff than they do selling models for it..


They don't.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/24 01:52:30


Post by: JWhex


A lot of people in my local area that quit fantasy went to Flames of War. If fantasy is axed, a lot of people will just be turned off from tabletop wargaming and find some other hobby.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/24 03:58:34


Post by: DukeRustfield


 Enigwolf wrote:
DukeRustfield wrote:

I'm betting they make a ton more money licensing 40K stuff than they do selling models for it..


They don't.

Based on:
http://investor.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/2011-12-Press-statement.pdf

In the 6 months of the report they had 18.7M profit from core. And 2.6M profit from royalties. And that was mostly from THQ's Space Marine.

So yeah, it's a lot less. But still that's noticeable. The deal is, revenue was like 62M and it gets chunked down to 18.7 because of all the costs. Royalties only get reduced by the department of people who have to run the licensing (listed as 270K in expenses). That's the power of IP. ~90% profit. As opposed to like 30ish % profit for the manufacturing. It's a good gig if you can get it. Ask George Lucas.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/24 05:20:43


Post by: -Loki-


Relapse wrote:
If that IP is losing them money, they'll axe it in a heartbeat. As I said earlier, Epic was making them good money back in the day and was considered their third core game. It doesn't matter to them if they don't have anything in Fantasy if they're losing money on it. They still have the copyrights on everything and could probably kick out a limited edition whatever every now and then to keep the copy right. That part is just a guess for me since I'm no expert in copy right law, but that seems to be the way I heard it goes.


Still not the same.

They need to be actively producing stuff to hold the trademark. If they axed Fantasy, they'd not be producing those models anymore, so wouldn't be actively using their trademark to hold onto it.

Axing Epic didn't lose them the 40k IP because they were still making Warhammer 40k. Axing Epic was like axing Warmaster - it was a game using the 40k IP. Now? 40k is the game using the 40k IP, just like WHFB is the game using the WHFB IP. Axing Fantasy is basically dropping 1/3 of their games and 1/2 of their proprietary IP. Not something Investors would want to see, since the strength of the company is its IP.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/24 10:19:02


Post by: Enigwolf


DukeRustfield wrote:
 Enigwolf wrote:
DukeRustfield wrote:

I'm betting they make a ton more money licensing 40K stuff than they do selling models for it..


They don't.

Based on:
http://investor.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/2011-12-Press-statement.pdf

In the 6 months of the report they had 18.7M profit from core. And 2.6M profit from royalties. And that was mostly from THQ's Space Marine.

So yeah, it's a lot less. But still that's noticeable. The deal is, revenue was like 62M and it gets chunked down to 18.7 because of all the costs. Royalties only get reduced by the department of people who have to run the licensing (listed as 270K in expenses). That's the power of IP. ~90% profit. As opposed to like 30ish % profit for the manufacturing. It's a good gig if you can get it. Ask George Lucas.


Ahah, but you never stated clearly originally if you were referring to revenues or profit streams. I've been keeping up with their investor reports, my apologies for not linking it in my previous post. I do agree that licensing has a lot less costs involved, but you cannot simply separate the two and state that licensing has a higher profit margin. The reason for this is that licensing depends on the IP, the IP development of which relies on the devs working on the 40k game. So technically the costs for that should be split between both licensing and the core game. But in any case, it's hard to make a justifiable comparison between the profit streams of the two since they're interlinked with one another.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/24 11:00:45


Post by: DukeRustfield


That never happens. The GW knows nothing about hiring and designing computer games or the plush blanket market in northern United States, or online t-shirts. That's why they license it to those who do.

But all this backs up to my point that they'll never axe the IP. To have an IP this be and successful and to be actively losing money on it would have to be some legal nightmare.

They can say, hey, we're making a Lord of the Rings movie and it will make a billion. Because that IP is so old and has been passed through so many generations it has basically funded itself. Unless the movie was naked monkey porn wrestling, it would still probably broken even.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/24 22:06:18


Post by: Dr. Cheesesteak


 MajorStoffer wrote:
Generally speaking, I think that 40k [is] more unique in its aesthetic, fluff and gameplay.

not sure if...

 Azazelx wrote:
It's often been observed in the past that WFB is far more popular in Europe than it is in the US. The sales figures given all seem to be anecdotal and mostly US-based.

 Gearhead wrote:
I was always under the impression that 40K was the big thing in the US, and WFB was the big thing everywhere else (or at least Europe...)

Yeah, I've always kind of heard/assumed the UK/Europe is what is keeping Fantasy alive, financially.

 pities2004 wrote:
Fantasy is booming in Arizona, gotta love conspiracy theories on GW axing WHFB

 Nitros14 wrote:
Around here in Victoria B.C. 8th caused a surge of fantasy players. It's certainly more popular now than it ever has been here. Almost everyone owns a fantasy army. We got 60 players out to a local tournament.

this too. All depends on the area.

 -Loki- wrote:
 lord_blackfang wrote:
Is WH Fantasy really still being played in places?

I haven't seen a game of it played in at least 2 years. And it used to be bigger than everything else put together.


No, you're right. The fact that you haven't seen a game in stores or clubs you frequent is totally representative of the entire world, and GW have been doing huge updates to Fantasy ranges in the hopes that, one day, some day, someone will buy a Fantasy kit.

ahah, exactly. see above. I too like feeding into other people's hyperboles. Just recently a girl on FB asked "is it true everyone cheats?" And I replied "yes, all 7 billion people in the world cheat." Not sure how or why, in today's easily accessed world, people can still think their little bubble applies to the entire world.

 Ailaros wrote:
If WHFB is really declining, it's because of things that GW has done on purpose, or, rather, what they haven't.

40k has tons of books, and RPGs, and movies, and video games about it. GW spends way more focus (and money) advertising and making content for 40k while doing much, much less for WHFB. Of course fantasy is going to suffer if they don't give it very much attention (and take what attention they did have and peel it off towards their other fantasy game in a desperate bid to make it profitable).

It's not so much a problem with fantasy being bad, so much as it not being played up as much of late.

I agree. It's almost like a vicious cycle or the case of the chicken and the egg. Is 40k more popular b/c GW promotes it more? Or does GW promote 40k more b/c it's more popular? I think GW has made some decent attempts to promote Fantasy recently (video games, expansions, that card game, etc)...well maybe not in the past year or so. But I think it's just been at the wrong time. They could've struck gold w/ WAR, in fact, they did for a short while, but the end-game wasn't enough or was too faulty for people to want to continue playing. And yeah, there's the whole Privateer Press thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
oh also, I have a theory on how GW could keep WHFB "alive" - sell pre-assembled, pre-painted models. I'd f'ing buy them.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/25 08:24:18


Post by: Enigwolf


 Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
oh also, I have a theory on how GW could keep WHFB "alive" - sell pre-assembled, pre-painted models. I'd f'ing buy them.


It won't happen. The "Hobby" aspect is what GW sells as a pitch to their shareholders, not the actual IP. It's all over their Investor page.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/25 09:19:56


Post by: DukeRustfield


As an investor, I could give a crap what they're selling. I want a return on my investment. If GW says they found a fountain that turns poo to gold, no one is going to care if they stop making plastic models. Because they will be rich. And can make their own plastic models.

IBM used to make computers. When it became unprofitable for them, they changed their business model.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/25 11:50:28


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


 thedarkavenger wrote:
Could GW axe fantasy? Yes.

Will GW axe fantasy? No.


Question answered. Thread over.


Exactly my thoughts


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/25 19:47:26


Post by: Dr. Cheesesteak


 Enigwolf wrote:
 Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
oh also, I have a theory on how GW could keep WHFB "alive" - sell pre-assembled, pre-painted models. I'd f'ing buy them.


It won't happen. The "Hobby" aspect is what GW sells as a pitch to their shareholders, not the actual IP. It's all over their Investor page.

i know, but a man can dream, right?!

Plus, they could still offer the sprues. Perhaps lower the prices on them. But increase prices on assembled+painted to make up for it.

I.e. say a box of Warriors of Chaos on sprues costs $20 (from $35), but a box of pre-assembled+painted Warriors of Chaos would be $50

Just a rough example, not sure how that'd balance out in regards to expenses and revenue, supply/demand, etc.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/06/30 23:35:50


Post by: SoCxWarChief


 MajorStoffer wrote:
Generally speaking, I think that 40k has a more broad appeal than fantasy. It's more unique in its aesthetic, fluff and gameplay. Locally, most stores have a significantly larger 40k playerbase with a single exception. At the store I frequent, there's a fantasy game once every month, sometimes less, with a half dozen people owning a single army. The 40k crowd is over 40, with many owning multiple armies, and the product movement reflects this.

At the end of the day, Fantasy is the more expensive game to get in to, the current edition is overly reliant on the magic phase, and the core gameplay can be experienced in a wide variety of cheaper mediums, whether that be historical wargames, or computer games (The Total War series combat mechanics are almost the exact same, just more intricate).

40k is cheaper, faster and, I feel, a more dynamic game to play. That doesn't mean, however, fantasy is going to be dropped.

The rumourmill is indicating fantasy is being condensed; bulk army books and the like, and GW has been heavily favouring 40k in this release cycle. I think GW is finally willing to admit, at least to itself, that fantasy isn't #1 anymore; they're not going to axe it, but I also don't think they're willing to invest the time and money in reinvigorating it at this point.


Perhaps if GW and Hobby Stores catered more to Fantasy, whether it be with campaigns, ladders, tournaments, etc, there would be a revamped interest in flocking to it. What is one to do when another system is receiving all the hype and attention as the Flavor of the month / week / day / second of every second?


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/07/01 08:19:28


Post by: DukeRustfield


I'm not sure why they got out of sponsoring tournaments. You are leaving your brand in the hands of people who might screw it up. Even if GW loses money on every tourney, the point isn't to make money off of it directly, it's marketing.

TSR always had Gencon even though there were tons of other RPG and tabletop gaming conventions across the country.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/07/01 08:30:31


Post by: Enigwolf


DukeRustfield wrote:
I'm not sure why they got out of sponsoring tournaments. You are leaving your brand in the hands of people who might screw it up. Even if GW loses money on every tourney, the point isn't to make money off of it directly, it's marketing.

TSR always had Gencon even though there were tons of other RPG and tabletop gaming conventions across the country.


Because they do not officially support tournaments as their game systems are not for competitive, tournament play, according to them.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/07/03 02:06:29


Post by: aosol


It would be brighter idea, business wise to create a more enjoyable set of rules and breathe in a new life to the game. People would easily embrace it again. Granted, I Started under the current set of rules.


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/07/03 10:19:37


Post by: Strayan


hahahahahahahahahahahahaha...
oh gak... this guy is being serious....
[Mod Edit - don't try to circumvent the expletive filter. Thanks - Alpharius]


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/07/03 10:40:20


Post by: Enigwolf




Did you have anything useful to add?


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/07/03 11:09:18


Post by: Strayan


 Enigwolf wrote:


Did you have anything useful to add?


Well now that you mention it yes I do...
This is a useless subject to entertain...
Useful enough?


Could GW axe Fantasy? @ 2013/07/03 21:16:33


Post by: pities2004


I need to start selling Tin Foil hats, I'll make a killing.