The anti-GW feeling that has been circulating seems to just be getting worse and worse lately, and regardless of the motivation behind GW's changes, I feel as if the hobby we know and love is under attack by the very people who created it. As such, I have penned a letter that I am planning on sending to as many higher-ups in the Gamesworkshop hierarchy as I can find, including Jes Bickham of the White Dwarf. I also plan to send a copy to the manager of my local store.
I do not hope that my letter will change the policies of GW, but at least if their empire comes crashing down around their knees, I will have it on paper and I can say "I told you so" Following is the letter, which is quite lengthy, but it is my first draft. I literally just wrote it in a twenty or so minutes while scrolling through the forums to find some common issues that all dakkanaughts are concerned about. It is full of personal anecdotes, but I hope the overall theme is universal.
I know that not everyone is anti-GW, and this is not a place to debate whether or not they are good or evil, I simply want opinions on my letter, and if you have something you'd like added, I'd like to know that too.
As I said, this is a rough draft, and probably a little difficult to follow just yet, but I will be improving it in further versions. When I send it, I will keep you updated of any response.
Spoiler:
The purpose of this letter is to inform you of changes that have been perceived in the attitude and culture of Games Workshop by myself and a number of like minded hobbyists. This is not simply a list of complaints, and we are aware that there are two sides to every story. We are also aware that Games Workshop is, first and foremost, a business, and that making money has and will always be a primary goal. However, with that said, the attitude that recent events has revealed has me, my gaming group, and dozens if not hundreds of hobbyists I communicate with online, concerned for the future of both Games Workshop and our beloved hobby.
When I first started playing Warhammer 40,000, I was introduced to the hobby by a local Games Workshop hobby store where I attended a birthday party for one of my friends. We played a battle facilitated by a fantastically enthusiastic staff member, and I came away from the party a devote follower of the Greater Good. My next birthday, I asked for little else but the Tau codex and a few boxes to start my army. At that point, really the only way for me to obtain models was for my parents to get them for me, because the costs were astronomically out of reach for me. I remember that I played my first two years borrowing a friend’s rulebook because there was no way for me to afford my own. (It was $50 at the time, a price that now seems like a bargain).
I am now eighteen years old, and still am a proud member of the Tau Empire. In fact, I have never collected another army. (I do own some High Elf models from Warhammer Fantasy, but I have never bought any other 40k models). There are two main reasons for this single-minded devotion: Firstly, I loved the tau and wanted to perfect my army before moving on, which I now know, is impossible. Secondly, it was utterly out of my financial means to focus on more than one army at a time. Once again, I stress that I am fully aware of a business’ main priority, and I am fully aware that Games Workshop is a business. However, it seems to me that the prices have continued to increase from those days when I first started playing to a point where I am currently scrolling through pages of Ebay listings for used Tau models rather than buy them from GW. I have not bought a new box directly from GW in some time, many months if not years. I am attending Northwestern University next year, and I have trouble enough paying for all of the things I need for that, and although I wish I could afford to buy some more fancy boxes of models, I simply cannot. As I look at the Games Workshop website right now, Codex: Tau Empire sells for 49.50 US dollars. A quick switch to the Australian website shows that it is 83 Australian dollars. A quick check on Google tells me that $49.50 in the United States is worth 54.64 Australian dollars. This price difference may well be explained away with shipping costs and old exchange rates and whatnot but the differential just seems to be an act of apathy that just so happens to net GW extra profit. I feel such acts are becoming all too commonplace. As food for thought, I will never be able to convince any of my non-hobbyist friends to pick up any GW hobby for the sole reason that it is far too expensive.
Rising prices in and of themselves are not the only distressing sign of change in GW. The entire hobby itself has seemed to lean more and more towards selling miniatures rather than growing a community of likeminded hobbyists and improving the games. Recent model releases have most literally become bigger and bigger, and such, justify I suppose, in the eyes of GW, bigger price tags. Model releases have become more frequent, and although many gamers welcome the increased pace, it again seems like a transparent ploy in order to pocket more money. Perhaps the most unsettling change is the apparent hostility towards what I call the “creativity of the hobby.” When Games Workshop released its new website, practically all of the hobby advice, terrain kits, and other Do-it-yourself vanished. No longer does the website describe how to create your own defense lines from cheap materials; it now sells expensive plastic models for that. Even the articles written on the website are nothing but shameless plugs for GW products regardless of actual opinions on them. White Dwarf was the most telling to me about the change in attitude at GW. The old White Dwarf was a wealth of hobby knowledge, a real conglomeration of more experienced hobbyists teaching me and other less experienced members of the hobby how to do clever tricks and build their own terrain. White Dwarf is now less of a hobby magazine and more of a product catalog.
As a final anecdote to support my claims, my local GW hobby store is the Chicago Bunker. (From the Internet I hear that it is one of the few surviving “bunker” stores, the rest are becoming one-man shops with no other goal but to sell product.) I have always been 100% pleased with the service and staff of this particular store. When they remodeled however, all of the beautifully crafted, lovingly painted, hand sculpted Citadel Realm of Battle tiles replaced tables, hastily dry brushed and thrown down. It is not an acceptable replacement. I understand the convenience of such a change, but I urge GW to look more closely at the things that they have labeled “inconveniences.” The hobby these days has started to feel less and less welcoming, and I know I speak for many others when I say I am drifting away from Games Workshop, the company that sparked my love for toy soldiers. I hate to see these changes occur, but I do see them occurring, and I fear that it will not be long until the hobby that I know and love is destroyed by greed. I hope that the reader of this letter takes these words to heart, and although I am sure that this letter will do little to change the corporate policy of Games Workshop, I am writing nonetheless in defense of the hobby that I have loved.
It is worth sending, but the truth is that it has been done before literally 100's of times at this point. This is not to belittle your effort, merely to prepare you for the almost 100% certainty you will be ignored or receive at best a canned response.
I don't think the general animosity towards GW has changed all that much in the past year or two... they have been doing stuff that didn't sit well with most of the community for quite some time now... more and more is happening, but it is almost expected at this point.
I think the big change is that more and more people, like myself, are moving away from GW and have little interest or excitement for new product anymore, though we still love older stuff.
I too am spending much less (both $$$ and time) on GW and as I go off to college I expect it to hit an all time low. My hope is that the fact that it as been done hundreds of times before wil actually give each letter they receive afterwards more weight.
I don't expect to change policy, but if we can get it in the back of their mind, we may see changes some day before the whole thing goes to hell.
You bought a bunch of our stuff, played for 18 months, then grew up. Please leave as we want to replace you with the next set of kids.
Thanks for your money!
GW
But some of your points are absurd... "transparent ploy in order to pocket more money" *EVERYTHING* a company does should be a transparent ploy to pocket more money.
Complaining about prices, complaining that they don't run the company like a clubhouse and 'I grew out of wargaming since I am going to college' isn't going to change a single opinion at GW.
You bought a bunch of our stuff, played for 18 months, then grew up. Please leave as we want to replace you with the next set of kids.
Thanks for your money!
GW
But some of your points are absurd... "transparent ploy in order to pocket more money" *EVERYTHING* a company does should be a transparent ploy to pocket more money.
Complaining about prices, complaining that they don't run the company like a clubhouse and 'I grew out of wargaming since I am going to college' isn't going to change a single opinion at GW.
All of that is understandable as a company, and yet, a company that claims to be about advancing the hobby and enjoying the art involved in it. They need to change their fake personality then if they want to run a cutthroat business. I just want honesty. They don't need to say "we're trying to rip you off" but it would be nice if they would stop saying ,we want you to be passionate about this hobby. Have you ever read white dwarf? That's all they say.
Automatically Appended Next Post: in additon, i don't expect policy to change because of one measly letter by a college bound kid, but i do know that policy will defintely NOT change if I just go along with their antics
We pride ourselves on making the highest quality miniatures products in the world. Each of our miniatures is a veritable work-of-art, each capturing a character from worlds rich in action and adventure.
From the gloomy darkness of a dystopian, galaxy-spanning war to fantasy worlds where the forces of evil constantly ply their plans at domination, we're sure you'll agree our miniatures are world class.
skink007 wrote: I too am spending much less (both $$$ and time) on GW and as I go off to college I expect it to hit an all time low. My hope is that the fact that it as been done hundreds of times before wil actually give each letter they receive afterwards more weight.
I don't expect to change policy, but if we can get it in the back of their mind, we may see changes some day before the whole thing goes to hell.
Jeepers Creepers. You're going to be spending less money on plastic toys while you're at college. For shame. Say it ain't so.
Stop giving them money, as many other disaffected people have done.
If enough people feel the same, change will happen, money is all that matters to any company, but particularly a PLC who could lose millions off their value, literally overnight, if their financial performance bottoms out.
This letter, I'm afraid, won't even cross the desk of someone who might be able to pass it on to someone who knows someone that could affect change.
I think it is quite common for most teen gamers to go into 'hibernation' when in college and then once they graduate and work for a few years and begin to have disposable income, re-enter the market.
So it is not uncommon to expect you will take a 6-8 year break from purchasing.
azreal13 wrote: "Be the change you want to see in the world"
Stop giving them money, as many other disaffected people have done.
If enough people feel the same, change will happen, money is all that matters to any company, but particularly a PLC who could lose millions off their value, literally overnight, if their financial performance bottoms out.
This letter, I'm afraid, won't even cross the desk of someone who might be able to pass it on to someone who knows someone that could affect change.
Even if they cared.
Which they don't.
An unexplained drop in sales will likely create the exact opposite effect that I'd like to see. They will increase prices, reduce customer service, etc etc. I have stopped spending money there, and I understand the longshot of this ever reaching anyone, much less it being read. But if you truly believed "be the change you want to see in the world" you would do more than walk away and tell yourself that "that'll show 'em"
azreal13 wrote: "Be the change you want to see in the world"
Stop giving them money, as many other disaffected people have done.
If enough people feel the same, change will happen, money is all that matters to any company, but particularly a PLC who could lose millions off their value, literally overnight, if their financial performance bottoms out.
This letter, I'm afraid, won't even cross the desk of someone who might be able to pass it on to someone who knows someone that could affect change.
Even if they cared.
Which they don't.
An unexplained drop in sales will likely create the exact opposite effect that I'd like to see. They will increase prices, reduce customer service, etc etc. I have stopped spending money there, and I understand the longshot of this ever reaching anyone, much less it being read. But if you truly believed "be the change you want to see in the world" you would do more than walk away and tell yourself that "that'll show 'em"
Simply put, you're wrong. Az is spot on. The only way GW would reevaluate their pricing structure is if they saw a dramatic hit to their bottom line. This would require massive numbers of people to vote with their wallets. A quaint little letter from a college bound 18 year old isnt going to mean a damn thing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And honestly, if you're in college you should only be concerned about the three Bs:
Lol, as i've said multiple times, this letter is not going to change any minds and i understand that. I have never once stated that GW will change their policy. In fact, if I wanted to go that direction, I'd collect signatures or write a letter more logically inclined with fewer anecdotes. Obviously my letter is written at a very small scale. It is more about principle and my sadness at the changes I have seen implemented than a plea to change policy. As far as not meaning a damn thing, you are wrong. It will mean very very very little. Just like you not buying from GW and me not buying from GW and for God's sake if all of dakka stopped buying from GW it would mean very very very little. The idea isn't to force them or negotiate or anything. It is to make my opinion known.
Hey, we may or may not agree on a lot of things, but we can agree that the only thing GW, or any public company, will listen to Is a hit to their profits.
Honestly, there's more of a chance that someone at GW would see a tweet than a letter or email.
If you buying there stuff it dosen't matter what you write, they already have you why would they change? Your going to keep buying any ways, what in it for them. You may say your sad, upset, mad, what ever, but it can't be if your sell buying. Thanking for blowing off steam thou, hope you fell better please by more stuff. That is how GW or any big company would react, can't really falt them for it either. Every company gets letters like that all the time, only hitting there bottom line will have any effect.
Just post it up in here as well. It'll get to the right people one way or another. And just ignore some of these White Knights, Apoligists, LoZers (yes wIth a Capital Z in the middle) and assorted straw men that say that GW is so AWESOME and they can never do wrong. I'm looking to see how AWESOME the new round of financial reports are going to be. They are going to be AWESOMER.... Because of some of the reasons you have posted.
Then I'll take these reports and hand them to a think tank that I am involved in once a month. Then we get some real laughs over dinner.
I don't know about you guys. But i didn't get into the hobby for its discount prices. I've always recognized that GW products are expensive. Even that they're more expensive that comparable games systems. GW has their reasons for their prices. and i don't care (that much). Within reason, i'll likely pay.
However, i was hoping to read something more in your letter about the rising hostility in GW staffers to hobbyists. I mean this literally. I know geek kids geek out and they're loud and rambunctious. But there has to be better ways of dealing with them than border line abusive behaviour. Also, never mind the kids (they're occasionally annoying). Mature hobbyists are being subject to similar behaviour. Being restricted about talking about non-gw game systems in store? Even games like monopoly or trouble? Really?! Perhaps these are isolated to the local staffers in my area. But... i somehow doubt it. No one is that douchy because they enjoy being horrible to almost everyone who's not buying their stuff at that exact moment. I talked with one opponent the other day who had been harassed at his local GW because the MOD had checked the logs and noticed he was using models that hadn't been bought in store. NOT that he was using other game system models or even extreme conversions, but that he was using GW models that hadn't been bought there.
REALLY, i am telling this story as i was told it. And knowing the individual he was talking about... i'm not surprised.
I would love it. LOVE IT if GW actually changed this draconian attitude towards business and just chilled for a bit. Personally i suspect this kind of attitude has come to the forefront with the public selling of the company. Now there are stock holders to be held accountable to
skink007 wrote:The anti-GW feeling that has been circulating seems to just be getting worse and worse lately, and regardless of the motivation behind GW's changes, I feel as if the hobby we know and love is under attack by the very people who created it.
GW did not create the hobby. They are just the single largest company selling miniatures and games for the wider hobby of miniature wargaming.
cincydooley wrote:The only way GW would reevaluate their pricing structure is if they saw a dramatic hit to their bottom line. This would require massive numbers of people to vote with their wallets. A quaint little letter from a college bound 18 year old isnt going to mean a damn thing.
You are right about the letter not doing anything, but GWhas changed their pricing structure. There was no across the board price increase this year. Instead, they are raising prices on new products as they come out. The new stuff sells as people buy the codex and new armies and the new kits to update their existing armies, so we'll see more things like 5 dire avengers for a higher price per model than before rather than across the board price increases. According to the sales spreadsheet released in the CHS lawsuit, GW sells lots of the newest release and lots of space marines.
As long as they keep doing regular new releases with new space marine releases interspersed through the year they'll be able to get the price increase into effect without doing a yearly adjustment of everything and not have to do it in response to declining unit sales of existing stock. The price increases will still be in response to declining unit sales in general, but I think they've found a way to both have the price increases and not have the price increases at the same time. The end result will be that the average price will continue to rise, but it will be more of a matter of increases on what sells well: new kits (be they new vehicles, new units or simply repackages/retoolings of existing kits like the dire avengers).
Well you say that the hobby us under attack from 'those that created it', but perhaps someone could explain what Kirby has created? GW has been mostly living off the creativity of people who made these games in the 80s. The people who created this hobby are still creating it, but for different companies. GW's creativity is limited to a new MC variant for their large oval bases when a new codex is released, that doesn't count. Real creativity is gone, replaced with stagnation in the same couple of games as company bosses play safe. The creatives of the 80s and 90s are gone, being replaced with managers and lawyers. GW solely focus on creating money now, to the point where it probably hurts them because they're all short term strategies.
The only gripe I have with GW is the content of the white dwarf and the fact they do not include all codex weapons options in their kits.
The white dwarf is UTTER gak. Its one big commercial brochure, utter marketing drivel. I can keep going on, but the old white dwarf is gone and this pile of gak should be given away free of charge.
And then regarding the codex options not in the kits, I guess it might be a way for them to stimulate the bits market or in some cases to tempt you to buy other kits that do include the parts, but I think if you are charging Euro 30+ for a box of 10 minis, you'd better include all the effing options!
For the rest I am okay with the hobby, its alot of fun and yes its expensive. Get over it.
azreal13 wrote: "Be the change you want to see in the world"
Stop giving them money, as many other disaffected people have done.
If enough people feel the same, change will happen, money is all that matters to any company, but particularly a PLC who could lose millions off their value, literally overnight, if their financial performance bottoms out.
I am.
I have been on a financial boycott of Ferrari since... well... forever. I simply refuse to buy their overpriced cars and firmly believe that they are utterly out of touch with the millions of potential customers out there who grew up loving their brand and product from trading cards, etc.. .
I am sure my absent purchases will soon bring them to reason, or force them to change their errant ways.
azreal13 wrote: "Be the change you want to see in the world"
Stop giving them money, as many other disaffected people have done.
And really stop, not just "stop until they release something awesome". Once you're out, you're out and should never get back in. If you can't do that, don¨t bother.
azreal13 wrote: "Be the change you want to see in the world"
Stop giving them money, as many other disaffected people have done.
If enough people feel the same, change will happen, money is all that matters to any company, but particularly a PLC who could lose millions off their value, literally overnight, if their financial performance bottoms out.
I am.
I have been on a financial boycott of Ferrari since... well... forever. I simply refuse to buy their overpriced cars and firmly believe that they are utterly out of touch with the millions of potential customers out there who grew up loving their brand and product from trading cards, etc.. .
I am sure my absent purchases will soon bring them to reason, or force them to change their errant ways.
The main difference between the offerings of Ferrari and GW is performance.
GW isn't even setting themselves up as the luxury brand for those who can afford it. Instead, they release mediocre product and pretend to be alone in the market.
I suggest you halve the letter in length; get rid of the throat-clearing, eg " The purpose of this letter is to inform you of changes that have been perceived in the attitude and culture of Games Workshop by myself and a number of like minded hobbyists." Halve the lengths of those convoluted sentences. If you're going to complain about prices, be specific - find out what you paid in the old days, and compare that to today's prices. Get rid of the generalities - " I feel such acts are becoming all too commonplace" - and introduce more specifics.
IN short, get rid of the general moaning, and come up with a list of specific problems. Address the letter to named individuals, with a customised opening to each letter, to make it personal. That way, you might actually get a response. Good luck, I'd like to see it.
The purpose of this letter is to inform you of changes that have been perceived in the attitude and culture of Games Workshop by myself and a number of like minded hobbyists. This is not simply a list of complaints, and we are aware that there are two sides to every story. We are also aware that Games Workshop is, first and foremost, a business, and that making money has and will always be a primary goal. However, with that said, the attitude that recent events has revealed has me, my gaming group, and dozens if not hundreds of hobbyists I communicate with online, concerned for the future of both Games Workshop and our beloved hobby.
*Cut down the convoluted sentence structure here. It's just making your letter more dense without communicating any more information.
When I first started playing Warhammer 40,000, I was introduced to the hobby by a local Games Workshop hobby store where I attended a birthday party for one of my friends. We played a battle facilitated by a fantastically enthusiastic staff member, and I came away from the party a devote follower of the Greater Good. My next birthday, I asked for little else but the Tau codex and a few boxes to start my army. At that point, really the only way for me to obtain models was for my parents to get them for me, because the costs were astronomically out of reach for me. I remember that I played my first two years borrowing a friend’s rulebook because there was no way for me to afford my own. (It was $50 at the time, a price that now seems like a bargain).
*Not sure how this helps your case.
I am now eighteen years old, and still am a proud member of the Tau Empire. In fact, I have never collected another army. (I do own some High Elf models from Warhammer Fantasy, but I have never bought any other 40k models). There are two main reasons for this single-minded devotion: Firstly, I loved the tau and wanted to perfect my army before moving on, which I now know, is impossible. Secondly, it was utterly out of my financial means to focus on more than one army at a time. Once again, I stress that I am fully aware of a business’ main priority, and I am fully aware that Games Workshop is a business. However, it seems to me that the prices have continued to increase from those days when I first started playing to a point where I am currently scrolling through pages of Ebay listings for used Tau models rather than buy them from GW. I have not bought a new box directly from GW in some time, many months if not years. I am attending Northwestern University next year, and I have trouble enough paying for all of the things I need for that, and although I wish I could afford to buy some more fancy boxes of models, I simply cannot. As I look at the Games Workshop website right now, Codex: Tau Empire sells for 49.50 US dollars. A quick switch to the Australian website shows that it is 83 Australian dollars. A quick check on Google tells me that $49.50 in the United States is worth 54.64 Australian dollars. This price difference may well be explained away with shipping costs and old exchange rates and whatnot but the differential just seems to be an act of apathy that just so happens to net GW extra profit. I feel such acts are becoming all too commonplace. As food for thought, I will never be able to convince any of my non-hobbyist friends to pick up any GW hobby for the sole reason that it is far too expensive.
*Your personal circumstances are irrelevant to your argument, and I would leave your age out. When I see people making a big deal out of their age, it always makes me roll my eyes and not listen.
Rising prices in and of themselves are not the only distressing sign of change in GW. The entire hobby itself has seemed to lean more and more towards selling miniatures rather than growing a community of likeminded hobbyists and improving the games. Recent model releases have most literally become bigger and bigger, and such, justify I suppose, in the eyes of GW, bigger price tags. Model releases have become more frequent, and although many gamers welcome the increased pace, it again seems like a transparent ploy in order to pocket more money. Perhaps the most unsettling change is the apparent hostility towards what I call the “creativity of the hobby.” When Games Workshop released its new website, practically all of the hobby advice, terrain kits, and other Do-it-yourself vanished. No longer does the website describe how to create your own defense lines from cheap materials; it now sells expensive plastic models for that. Even the articles written on the website are nothing but shameless plugs for GW products regardless of actual opinions on them. White Dwarf was the most telling to me about the change in attitude at GW. The old White Dwarf was a wealth of hobby knowledge, a real conglomeration of more experienced hobbyists teaching me and other less experienced members of the hobby how to do clever tricks and build their own terrain. White Dwarf is now less of a hobby magazine and more of a product catalog.
*This is okay, but could be shorter and punchier.
As a final anecdote to support my claims, my local GW hobby store is the Chicago Bunker. (From the Internet I hear that it is one of the few surviving “bunker” stores, the rest are becoming one-man shops with no other goal but to sell product.) I have always been 100% pleased with the service and staff of this particular store. When they remodeled however, all of the beautifully crafted, lovingly painted, hand sculpted Citadel Realm of Battle tiles replaced tables, hastily dry brushed and thrown down. It is not an acceptable replacement. I understand the convenience of such a change, but I urge GW to look more closely at the things that they have labeled “inconveniences.” The hobby these days has started to feel less and less welcoming, and I know I speak for many others when I say I am drifting away from Games Workshop, the company that sparked my love for toy soldiers. I hate to see these changes occur, but I do see them occurring, and I fear that it will not be long until the hobby that I know and love is destroyed by greed. I hope that the reader of this letter takes these words to heart, and although I am sure that this letter will do little to change the corporate policy of Games Workshop, I am writing nonetheless in defense of the hobby that I have loved.
*The goal of every shop is to sell product, building a community is just the most effective way to do that. This is something you could expand simply by talking about what would keep you in the stores rather than complaining about the current situation- give them something to think about rather than relentless negativity.
"We've got news that Sigvatr hasn't bought any new golf clubs from us in 2013 either. I believe he's still boycotting us!"
"Really? How long can he cope with staying away from the golf-hobby, and with it it's largest producer of stuff you need for the hobby."
"We are not sure. For years, our company psychologist have predicting that he'll cave eventually, but he's clearly made of sterner stuff."
"If we don't get Sigvatr back into the hobby soon, we'll be doomed!"
"Yes, Boss. It's clearly an emergency."
"Ok, complete new strategy. We'll start doing... what?"
"We don't know boss. He's never written us a letter, a note, not even an email? We're not even sure why he refuses to buy our product?"
"Crud..."
I believe you already know this, but you're applying examples from a car company and a golf company to a miniature company.
I am no expert, but I believe all three companies have different products and different ways of managing themselves. And I probably shouldn't need to mention the thousands of other differences including customers, audience, scale of production, price, company profits, and the people who are running the show. You apply logic and principal to two things, and how you are relating it is reasonable, but perhaps you should think about it more before you attempt this trail of thought again.
I believe you already know this, but you're applying examples from a car company and a golf company to a miniature company.
I am no expert, but I believe all three companies have different products and different ways of managing themselves. And I probably shouldn't need to mention the thousands of other differences including customers, audience, scale of production, price, company profits, and the people who are running the show. You apply logic and principal to two things, and how you are relating it is reasonable, but perhaps you should think about it more before you attempt this trail of thought again.
Who cares what company it is?
The point is that, for every company in the world, there are more people not spending money on their products, than there are people spending money on their products.
For every person ("consumer" in the world, there are more companies in the world they have never, and never will spend money on, than there are companies they will spend money on.
Whatever company you choose to pick, joining the 99.999999999999999999% of the world population that isn't spending money on company X in some form of "boycott" won't help you achieve anything. It doesn't mean anything to company X.
Being one of the 0.0000000000000000000001% of the world population that is (!) spending money on their products AND is writing a letter, you might have a chance to be heard. A small-to-non-existent-chance, true, but still a gazillion-times greater than the one you make with a boycott.
That is true for every single company in the world. No exceptions. Hence all examples (Ferrari, Golf, Goldman Sachs financial products, Privateer Press miniatures, whatever) are all equally valid examples as not one of them differs from the other in that particular aspect. The nature of the product is irrelevant, unless it is actually a product that > 50% of the world population buys (from a single company).
I think GW have doubled down on their current approach a few times now. I'm not their target market, so why would they care about a letter from someone who they're not really interested in as a customer?
frozenwastes wrote: I think GW have doubled down on their current approach a few times now. I'm not their target market, so why would they care about a letter from someone who they're not really interested in as a customer?
Why would they care if you're simply not buying stuff from them, and aren't even invested enough to make your dissatisfaction known, indicating that you might potentially be a customer?
For all they know, you might just be another person in the world who doesn't even know what a Space Marine is to begin with.
The point is that, for every company in the world, there are more people not spending money on their products, than there are people spending money on their products.
For every person ("consumer" in the world, there are more companies in the world they have never, and never will spend money on, than there are companies they will spend money on.
Whatever company you choose to pick, joining the 99.999999999999999999% of the world population that isn't spending money on company X in some form of "boycott" won't help you achieve anything. It doesn't mean anything to company X.
Being one of the 0.0000000000000000000001% of the world population that is (!) spending money on their products AND is writing a letter, you might have a chance to be heard. A small-to-non-existent-chance, true, but still a gazillion-times greater than the one you make with a boycott.
That is true for every single company in the world. No exceptions. Hence all examples (Ferrari, Golf, Goldman Sachs financial products, Privateer Press miniatures, whatever) are all equally valid examples as not one of them differs from the other in that particular aspect. The nature of the product is irrelevant, unless it is actually a product that > 50% of the world population buys (from a single company).
Just wanted to point out that there is a significant difference between someone who has never been a customer not buying a company's products and someone who has been a loyal and repeat customer not buying a company's products.
If 90% of the former boycott GW, it's business as usual.
If 90% of the latter boycott GW, they go out of business.
Just wanted to point out that there is a significant difference between someone who has never been a customer not buying a company's products and someone who has been a loyal and repeat customer not buying a company's products.
And I just wanted to point out that there isn't. Not a goddamn difference in the world.
GW's business model doesn't thrive (or depend) on repeat business.
Just wanted to point out that there is a significant difference between someone who has never been a customer not buying a company's products and someone who has been a loyal and repeat customer not buying a company's products.
And I just wanted to point out that there isn't. Not a goddamn difference in the world.
GW's business model doesn't thrive (or depend) on repeat business.
Yeah, there is.
1 person who is a loyal customer of a company who stops buying has a greater impact than 1,000 people who have never bought and never will buy.
That's why businesses care about customers and don't give a gak about anyone who isn't a customer (except in the context of how they can be turned into customers).
To use your analogy: Ferrari cares a hell of a lot more about losing the business of the guy who buys every one of their new models every year than about "losing" your business - the guy who has no intention of ever buying one of their cars anyway.
So yes, there is a significant goddamn difference.
1 person who is a loyal customer of a company who stops buying has a greater impact than 1,000 people who have never bought and never will buy.
That's why businesses care about customers and don't give a gak about anyone who isn't a customer (except in the context of how they can be turned into customers).
To use your analogy: Ferrari cares a hell of a lot more about losing the business of the guy who buys every one of their new models every year than about "losing" your business - the guy who has no intention of ever buying one of their cars anyway.
So yes, there is a significant goddamn difference.
No.
Because 99.999% of people who buy Ferrari, only ever buy one in their life. Sure, that repeat-guy is nice, but not even Ferrari can build its business on him (or her). Its a bonus.
Similarly, 99.999% of GW's business is the guys (and very few girls) that buy their first box or two of miniatures. Most never come back and drop it within a week, or within a month at the latest. Sure, the plastic-addicts are nice, a bonus, but GW's business doesn't depend on them.
cincydooley wrote: I always read about this whole, "GW doesn't care about repeat business" and "GW doesn't care about the older collector."
Doesn't Apocalypse and it's original intent sort of spit in the face of that assertation?
There's a difference between "are there enough people buying this stuff to make it worthwhile" (not only Apocalypse. Arguably Forge World in its entirety builds on these people) and "GW as a business would feel a pinch if these people all leave".
Games Workshop would do just fine if they wouldn't sell a single Apocalypse 40K book. Games Workshop would do just fine if Forge World had to close because all the customers for "40K-but-all-serious-and-sophisticated" went somewhere else.
1 person who is a loyal customer of a company who stops buying has a greater impact than 1,000 people who have never bought and never will buy.
That's why businesses care about customers and don't give a gak about anyone who isn't a customer (except in the context of how they can be turned into customers).
To use your analogy: Ferrari cares a hell of a lot more about losing the business of the guy who buys every one of their new models every year than about "losing" your business - the guy who has no intention of ever buying one of their cars anyway.
So yes, there is a significant goddamn difference.
No.
Because 99.999% of people who buy Ferrari, only ever buy one in their life. Sure, that repeat-guy is nice, but not even Ferrari can build its business on him (or her). Its a bonus.
Similarly, 99.999% of GW's business is the guys (and very few girls) that buy their first box or two of miniatures. Most never come back and drop it within a week, or within a month at the latest. Sure, the plastic-addicts are nice, a bonus, but GW's business doesn't depend on them.
Perhaps, but your argument is based on saying that a regular and repeat customer boycotting a company is = someone who has never and has no intention of ever being a customer boycotting that company - which is completely false.
I mean, this isn't exactly advanced theoretical ecomonics we're talking about, just go to your local business and ask them which group would hurt them more by boycotting their business:
1. The regular customers, or
2. People who have never and would never (boycott or not) spend money there anyway.
I guarantee you that a boycott by one of those groups would have a different impact than the other.
Perhaps, but your argument is based on saying that a regular and repeat customer boycotting a company is = someone who has never and has no intention of ever being a customer boycotting that company - which is completely false.
I mean, this isn't exactly advanced theoretical ecomonics we're talking about, just go to your local business and ask them which group would hurt them more by boycotting their business:
1. The regular customers, or
2. People who have never and would never (boycott or not) spend money there anyway.
I guarantee you that a boycott by one of those groups would have a different impact than the other.
A person not spending money is a person not spending money either way.
Go ask your local business who they'd rather listen to concerning improvements of their offers. People who aren't spending money (former customers or not) or people who are spending money (as new customers or not).
I guarantee you, most (in fact all) businesses try to cater to the people spending money, not the people not spending money.
The only real hope is that 3D printing gets affordable and effective enough to force GW to respond. It is the real key to drive change at GW at this point.
I'm new to wargaming altogether having just started up my first wh40k army, but one of my reasons for taking it up as a hobby is that it is a relatively cheap hobby to participate in. I know some of you have already started frothing at the mouth at that statement, but I have lots of hobbies, and warhammer is pretty affordable. I'll get to that in a second, but first let me be on topic and address your letter OP.
First of all, you keep stressing how you don't have the resources to put more money into said hobby. That's completely irrelevant to GW or any other business for that matter. Why are you telling them this? Is it to make them think, "oh dear, someone doesn't have a lot of money and we should ensure that we cater to people who can't really afford a hobby?" I understand that you're young, your mindset reflects this as you don't have a measured view of reality, and you're speaking from a very shallow perspective. If your intention is to highlight GW's misdeeds and the negative impacts of their rising prices, you're going to have to put forth a much better argument than, "it's too expensive for me and I'm going to college and I had to borrow a rulebook and it's sad so please feel bad for me!" Yes, you wrote it much more nicely than that, but that's all your narrative amounts to.
Then you tell them which army you play and why you only play that army. Again, irrelevant. If you're point is that their behavior is creating negativity within the wargaming community, you need to provide something that illustrates that. Rising costs are a symptom of something, but you're not identifying it. Then you come out of nowhere with the cost for a codex to Australia, you try to account for this by waving away shipping costs, but there's more going on with international order than that. But how did you not bother to look at the UK Tau codex at 30GBP which clocks in at 45USD while we stateside pay $50. That's about right in terms of variation. Do you know how much it would cost me to ship a codex to Australia with the USPS? $44. That's the shipping cost for an express envelope, not even a thin box. Look, I run a small hobby business handcrafting leather bags, I've shipped to Australia. It's expensive. It was a bizarre point to bring up, and only exacerbated by the fact that you didn't really bother to do your due diligence. Not to mention as an individual, you don't cost out your time - so my time spent packing and going to the post office and "processing" the transaction at home via email/ebay/whatever is counted as $0. It's not $0 at a business. You say you're heading to college, please take a couple business courses while you're there. The cost to ship a package includes the cost of staff, cost of general operations and many other things averaged out throughout each and every product or action a company takes.
I'm not saying GW isn't cranking prices up, I'm just saying that your argument so far holds no water.
Your next point about selling minis vs growing community is both correct and arbitrary. In the early stages of business development, a business is very concerned with growth and attracting new consumers. So it's only reasonable for a gaming company to pursue community in effort to survive and grow. Once maturity has been reached and a market saturated, it's more about efficiency of operations and finding ways to get the most money from your customer base. You can look at your favorite up and coming wargaming company, if they are around in 10 years, they'll be doing the same thing. A business doesn't stay in the initial growth stages of business forever. Only until they're entrenched in the market, then they shift to increase profit making (all businesses want to get there as fast as possible).
And you toss in a bit about battle bunkers disappearing. Okay, I'm new, I haven't been to a bunker, but I can pretty much tell you what is going on from a business standpoint. You are over-valuing yourself and other wargaming enthusiasts value to the hobby. In your mind, you're thinking, we create community and attract more players! That's what keeps this hobby going! Yes and no. Community does help a great deal, but it's not really you're job to grow the hobby. You are helpful right up until you're not. A normal retail store (of most types) will cost around $100k - $500k per year to operate (lots of factors going into this salaries, insurance, licenses, utilities, taxes, lease, inventory, so lets just stick with a range). FLGS's need active communities because that's it for them. They are one small shop with no other markets than their local gamers. E-commerce has helped in this regard, but the locals will always make up the bulk of your business. So it's ALWAYS important for a FLGS to keep community active and friendly. GW is an international company with known branding and sold everywhere. There outlets are for market presence and to reinforce that branding. So even if some kid never goes in one, the fact that they're familiar with the logo will increase their likelihood of purchasing GW branded products in a FLGS. That's just how marketing works, it's the reason Coke and Pepsi still advertise despite being household names. You have to keep that mindshare.
Now, let's take the low end of operating costs for a retail outlet ~ $100k. Let's say that store has 10 regulars who play there all the time. If each of those regulars ONLY shop there for WH stuff and spend $1000/yr that's only $10k. Each of those 10 people would need to attract 9 new people who would also spend $1000/yr just for that store to break even. That's 90 new players per year being brought in by existing community members. Possible? Yes. Likely? Maybe. Common? No. But you start running into two major business flaws that Games Workshop has created for itself and is trying to make up for at a late point in their business life.
Used goods and Relatively finite gaming needs of players.
Here's where GW screwed up. They created a game which is actually very cheap, and only gets cheaper to play as time goes on. When looking at it as an upfront bulk cost, it can look intimidating, but when you break it down (I'll do so below) you'll see how affordable it is. There is no planned obsolescence. Most other companies have identified this as a way to drive business, GW never did. For example, you have your Tau army, you go off to college and in four years you get the itch to chuck some dice, you still have a tau army. The rules might have slightly changed, but you shouldn't have much issue playing with what you have. Take a look at MTG if you want a look at a properly greedy business model. Four sets per year, rotating with each block! You can drop $500 on a top tier deck, and within three months you'll have to spend more to keep it up to date. Then the real kicker comes when the block rotates out and your deck is now defunct and you need to make a new one.
GW's other nemesis are used good. Because they have a static game that only changes slightly, players can buy used. So if we take a gander at that "why no community!" example above, those 10 regular probably stopped buying full retail price goods a few months after starting. And the worst part is, is that those community members share secrets on how to do things cheaper and where to get those things. So even when they do attract a new player, they tell that person to go here for cheaper paints, go there for conversions and so on. So the community is actually poisoning the well while simultaneously not buying at full retail. I know the counter to that is, "well if product were cheaper, they wouldn't look for alternatives." Yes they would, because the used market would be even more affordable than before. No one would buy used if it's more than retail cost.
I have no stake in GW, I'm not a loyalist (I just started two weeks ago) but you're way off the mark in terms of your assessment of GW's business practices. Now for my silly shorthand maths:
Time spent in hobby:
52 hours/yr @ 1hr per game, 1 game per week
60 hours painting @2hrs / figure (approx. 30 figures for 1000 point SM army)
Cost of hobby
$360 Army cost - $20 captain, $80 two tactical squads, $40 rhino, $40 razorback, $47 dreadnought, $40 drop pod, $33 assault squad, $60 predator (I just found a 1k pt list on google, please ignore it's quality as far as gameplay would go).
$132 Painting materials - $67 brush set, $12 three base colors, $12 three shade colors, $12 three layer 1, $12 three layer 2, $17 black primer
$117 Additional costs - $42 codex, $75 Rulebook
Total costs:
$609
Value of WH40K over time
$5.44 /hr in the first year
$3.71 /hr in the second year assuming no army additions
$2.82/hr in the third year assuming no army additions
+1000 points addition to army
$247 Total for $100 - 10 terminators, $80 - 5 bikes, $22 - Librarian, $45 - 5 sternguard
42 hours @ 2hrs / figure ( 21 figures in addition)
Overall time spent in hobby:
154 hours
Overall total costs:
$856
Value of 2000 point army over time
$5.56 /hr in the first year
$4.16 /hr in the second year
$3.32 /hr in the third year
This does not take into account increased time to paint larger models such as vehicles and or conversions. Based on what I found from internet searches most people take roughly 2 -3 hours. Outliers being people who are extremely experienced who can paint very quickly 1hr or less or those who want each model to be better than tabletop quality taking 4 or more hours to paint a model.
Taking 1 extra hour per model adds 51 hours for total time spent in hobby which changes the overall time to 205, making the 2000 point value $4.18 in the first year which is over a dollar per hour better.
I can also imagine that people play more than one game when they do decide to play, probably 2-3 games, which I figured would be balanced out by frequency of game dates.
So this one army continues to get cheaper over time while still being playable. The paint can continue to be used on new collections so those costs aren’t incurred again (at least not at such a large rate, you might pick up a few more pots or buy another brand altogether, but I wanted to do this example with just GW product at retail prices). Should you buy another army to start, your initial costs will be lower as you’ll just be buying a codex (don’t need rule book) and fewer paint need (no brushes either). You can also lower your costs by buying cheaper alternatives, like spray primer for $5 instead of $17. And making your own brush set for $25 at an art store.
This is something I urge people to do when they look at their expenses and/or are trying to evaluate how much a particular form of entertainment is worth. Let's look at other common forms of entertainment to determine if $5/hr is good value.
Cable TV:
Average person watches 34 hours per week (136 hr/mo). Comcast (ignoring 6 month signing discount) has it's 160 channels for about $75 + another $15 for HBO per month. That's $0.66 per hour of entertainment. So you can see why TV is far and away such a popular way to pass the time.
Movies:
Average cost of a movie ticket is about $8 (yes, I know, no one in any major city can even remember such a low price, but that's roughly the national average). A movie is about 2hrs. That's $4/hr value. Assuming no purchases of foodstuffs at the theatre.
Video Games:
$60 for most new releases. Most AAA games are running around 6-12 hours. That's a range of $10/hr to $5/hr.
Reading a book:
A new book is around $25. Probably around 10 hours of reading time. So $2.50/hr value for reading a book.
Indoor Soccer:
$80 for about 8 games (unless you're a winning team, in which case you play in semis and finals), game is an hour, $10 per hour.
So about $5 per hour in the first year using pretty conservative time estimates isn't bad. If you're someone who like to convert or spends more time painting or plays a lot, that value just keeps getting better and better. You can't just isolate the cost and say, "omg why am I spending so much?" You're not. That's an initial outlay, and it can be expensive, but the overall costs are quite reasonable. And the fact that armies don't rotate out constantly is tremendous. Even video games require you to get a new console to keep up with new releases, extra controller to play with friends, internet for multi-player, TV/monitor to play it on.
Again, I want to remind you that I'm not saying that GW is running things well and doing right by it's customer, but you need to remember that businesses are a little more complicated than put forth by internet denizens. And remember, small companies are going to be fast, responsive, creative and looking to cultivate a community. But don't be surprised when they change.
Perhaps, but your argument is based on saying that a regular and repeat customer boycotting a company is = someone who has never and has no intention of ever being a customer boycotting that company - which is completely false.
I mean, this isn't exactly advanced theoretical ecomonics we're talking about, just go to your local business and ask them which group would hurt them more by boycotting their business:
1. The regular customers, or
2. People who have never and would never (boycott or not) spend money there anyway.
I guarantee you that a boycott by one of those groups would have a different impact than the other.
A person not spending money is a person not spending money either way.
Go ask your local business who they'd rather listen to concerning improvements of their offers. People who aren't spending money (former customers or not) or people who are spending money (as new customers or not).
I guarantee you, most (in fact all) businesses try to cater to the people spending money, not the people not spending money.
Businesses care about lost customers. They want to know why the customer quit spending money with them and they want to get them back.
A large percentage of your customers boycotting your product will hurt your business.
A large percentage of people who were never and never intended to be your customers boycotting your product doesn't mean gak.
That's why if the entirety of the Ferrari community decided to not buy GW products then GW probably wouldn't even notice (because 99% of them most likely weren't spending money with GW anyway), but if the entirety of the gaming community decided to not buy GW products then GW probably would notice.
Because someone who is a potential customer deciding not to spend money on your products means a hell of a lot more than someone who was never a potential customer deciding not to spend money on your products.
So no, a person not spending money is =/= to any other person not spending money.
Businesses care about lost customers. They want to know why the customer quit spending money with them and they want to get them back.
Because someone who is a potential customer deciding not to spend money on your products means a hell of a lot more than someone who was never a potential customer deciding not to spend money on your products.
So no, a person not spending money is =/= to any other person not spending money.
But how would you convince GW (or any company) that you are indeed such a potential customer (and not a never-would-even-consider-customer) if not by spending some money or, at the very least, writing a letter?
For all intents and purposes, you may well be a "never-a-potential-customer" unless you make the effort to communicate, as done by the OP.
I am not disagreeing that - academically speaking - there is a difference between these two types of customers you describe. For practical purposes, i.e. the information and "market signals" that'll arrive in Nottingham, there isn't.
Hell, while I am likely not a potential Ferrari customer, I am pretty sure I am a potential .. hmm .. Privateer Press or Corvus Belli customer... if they did things differently. I even have a free Horde Druid-event mini somewhere that I won in a raffle. Still, my lack of purchases from either company has not yet motivated them to tailor their product more to my preferences (to which they are also oblivious, I would assume, given that I've never written them a letter). Absence of money spend is not a viable signal a business can interpret.
Privateer would never know whether or not they could win me as a customer, if they did things differently, nor could Ferrari. I know that Privateer may stand a better chance than Ferrari (in theory), but they don't.
I always remind people in situations like this to take a step back and realise that communities like this are incredibly skewed in opinion. The people who are happy with their hobby get on with it, those who are not sit on forums and moan about it. The situation isn't as dire as you make out, nor is the GW hobby as a whole as doomed as some on this site would like to think. Its just Dakka as a community is one of the most rabidly anti-GW I've ever seen.
Businesses care about lost customers. They want to know why the customer quit spending money with them and they want to get them back.
Because someone who is a potential customer deciding not to spend money on your products means a hell of a lot more than someone who was never a potential customer deciding not to spend money on your products.
So no, a person not spending money is =/= to any other person not spending money.
But how would you convince GW (or any company) that you are indeed such a potential customer (and not a never-would-even-consider-customer) if not by spending some money or, at the very least, writing a letter?
For all intents and purposes, you may well be a "never-a-potential-customer" unless you make the effort to communicate, as done by the OP.
This has nothing to do with our discussion about your falacious comparision of a 40k gamer deciding to not buying GW to someone who'd never buy a Ferrari anyway deciding to not buy a Ferrari, but whatevs, I'll bite.
I'd imagine that if a large percentage of people who were spending money on GW quit doing so then they'd probably notice it. Do it enough and even the most stubborn business will decide that whatever they're doing isn't working.
GW may think that kids buying one or two sets are the foundation of their business, but I imagine that the only reason those kids get interested in the first place is because they saw a game (at least, that was my experience). No repeat customers playing the game means less of those kids buying one or two sets and then quitting.
It's obvious GW cares about 1 thing: money (which is only proper - they are a business), but they don't seem to recognize that there is any sort of link between keeping their player base happy and making money - and maybe there isn't, which is why they've ignored the letters and the forum grumbling etc. because, at the end of the day, most of the people that bitch and complain still go out and buy all the new toys GW puts out.
I don't have a dog in this fight because GW's practices don't really bother me that much (though it'd be nice to be able to get a game of 40k on as easily as it was a decade ago), but if I had to choose between getting letters or losing money I know which one I'd pick and I know which one would more likely make me reevaluate my business model.
Stormphoenix wrote: I always remind people in situations like this to take a step back and realise that communities like this are incredibly skewed in opinion. The people who are happy with their hobby get on with it, those who are not sit on forums and moan about it. The situation isn't as dire as you make out, nor is the GW hobby as a whole as doomed as some on this site would like to think. Its just Dakka as a community is one of the most rabidly anti-GW I've ever seen.
Hahah, good luck with this line, I am sure some of the regular poster will be along soon.
Best recent example I can think of was the oft-repeated post about LOTR troops doubling in price. It's been posted here several times - but point out that prices actually went up 33%, and the poor sensitive haters get all upset. They can't bear the prospect of anybody puncturing their World Of Misery!
Zweischneid wrote: If you don't like Ferrari, take any other company you are not (!) spending money on.
Has your lack of spending affected their behaviour as a company? Put them under pressure? Forced them to change their ways?
Writing a letter, however minuscule the impact may be, is still infinitely more effective at making your dissatisfaction heard than "stop spending".
How about we forget a Ferrari, and substitute it with a company that has some point in time received a sizeable portion of my disposable income, and now no longer does?
Now you're getting it!
The fact remains I am a potential Ferrari, or, personally I would have gone with Aston Martin, but whatevs, customer. Should I have a change in financial circumstances, I am still potentially a customer of theirs, or any (many!) other luxury car brands. In comparison, I WAS a confirmed GW only hobbyist, I had no interest in expanding my gaming beyond 40K. I am no longer a GW customer, I have broadened my horizons and diverted my funds to their direct competition in their own marketplace.
Edit: Just to clarify a point raised by another poster ( think it was Oblivion) I am not on a GW boycott. If they produce something I really want or feel I need, I will purchase it, my MMPB copy of Angel Exterminatus arrived just this weekend) If they make things I want, at a reasonable price, they will get my money as a reward from me. They have just spectacularly failed to do so either regularly or in significant amounts for some time.
Stormphoenix wrote: Its just Dakka as a community is one of the most rabidly anti-GW I've ever seen.
I always love statements like this. They completely preclude the possibility that a lot of people may not be liking GW right now in general and for valid reasons, undermining anything Anti-GW as 'rabid'. Hooray for subtle absolutionist slights.
Anyways, there is nothing wrong with sending the letter, though there may be little net result it is doing something. However, the best thing that can be done, as has been stated by others, is to vote with your wallet.
This has nothing to do with our discussion about your falacious comparision of a 40k gamer deciding to not buying GW to someone who'd never buy a Ferrari anyway deciding to not buy a Ferrari, but whatevs, I'll bite.
Sure it does. That is the context.
Guy A says he's dissatisfied with GW and will write a letter. Guy B responds that letters won't change things, he ought to "vote with his wallet" and not buy GW stuff anymore.
Guy B is clearly wrong for the reasons I outlined.
I'd imagine that if a large percentage of people who were spending money on GW quit doing so then they'd probably notice it. Do it enough and even the most stubborn business will decide that whatever they're doing isn't working.
Large percentage =/= 1 or 2 guys boycotting. If you have a system that you can rely on to actually make a large (>50%?) percentage of GW customers follow your lead, we're talking about something else entirely.
GW may think that kids buying one or two sets are the foundation of their business, but I imagine that the only reason those kids get interested in the first place is because they saw a game (at least, that was my experience). No repeat customers playing the game means less of those kids buying one or two sets and then quitting.
Speculation.
Moreover, GW most probably has data indicating the exact opposite, or they wouldn't be closing all those battle bunkers and focus on one-person stores with only tiny demo-tables for newbies, and (!) report rising profits.
It's obvious GW cares about 1 thing: money (which is only proper - they are a business), but they don't seem to recognize that there is any sort of link between keeping their player base happy and making money - and maybe there isn't, which is why they've ignored the letters and the forum grumbling etc. because, at the end of the day, most of the people that bitch and complain still go out and buy all the new toys GW puts out.
Perhaps. But walking away won't change the company. Writing letters likely may not either, but it's an effort to do. If walking away from GW makes you happier because there is no (or not enough) enjoyment for you in their products, do it! But walking away with the intent of changing GW (and presumably coming back if they change) is a gazillion-times more far-fetched than writing a letter with the intent of changing GW.
I don't have a dog in this fight because GW's practices don't really bother me that much (though it'd be nice to be able to get a game of 40k on as easily as it was a decade ago), but if I had to choose between getting letters or losing money I know which one I'd pick and I know which one would more likely make me reevaluate my business model.
Again, your personal decision and how it affects you is something other than trying to influence a large, publicly listed business (which isn't a 5-guy start-up either btw.).
And even if you run a 5-guy start-up, you will not kiss up to every random whim and complaint of every single (potential) customer who might voice their concerns. Trust me. You won't. Or you won't be in business more than 5 minutes. If in doubt, you're most probably going to listen to the feedback of customers who DO spend money.
Stormphoenix wrote: Its just Dakka as a community is one of the most rabidly anti-GW I've ever seen.
I always love statements like this. They completely preclude the possibility that a lot of people may not be liking GW right now in general and for valid reasons, undermining anything Anti-GW as 'rabid'. Hooray for subtle absolutionist slights.
Anyways, there is nothing wrong with sending the letter, though there may be little net result it is doing something. However, the best thing that can be done, as has been stated by others, is to vote with your wallet.
I agree MT, that people seem to bash Dakka as some anti GW establishment, when in reality the VAST majority of this site is dedicated to GW and has very little to do with complaints about them.
The reality is that complaints are louder than compliments. Some marketing study done a while back showed that on average, if a customer has a good experience at a business, they'll tell 1-2 people about it. However if they have a bad experience they will tell 5+ people about it. It's just our nature.
For every 1 person who complains online about GW, there are likely 10 others who are completely happy with them. The difference is that happy customers don't often sing praise for a company on a whim, and why should they?
No one should be posting that GW's local manager did a great job explaining a new release. That is his job. He is getting paid to do it. People should not be getting compliments for doing what they are paid exactly to do, and as consumers, in most cases, we recognize that and leave it alone.
True customer service should strive to have fewer complaints rather than more compliments. Complaints resonate with people far more. Some companies go out of their way to fix those complaints, and to learn from them so that there are no complaints for the same thing in the future. Other companies look at how many people complain vs how many people buy and decide they can afford to widely ignore those complaints(and I'm not just talking GW here).
At any rate, Dakka is most certainly not anti GW, nor is Dakka some single entity with a single opinion. The amount of anti GW posts here is quite minimal compared to the amount of posts in support of GW's PRODUCTS, as evidenced by the myriad sub forums we have dedicated to GW games and models.
People keep focusing on the whole MTG rotating thing making it expensive, but that's only an issue if you want a top tier deck and you want to keep up with standard format, and you probably buy cards second hand from dealers. There's no need to do this if you don't want as there are many formats to choose from. In fact, almost no mtg cards are not legal in one format or another today, regardless of age. Furthermore, to meet the minimum requirement for a reasonably sized Warhammer game you have to lay out a fair bit, unless you go all non-GW which I think doesn't address the point those claiming 'it isn't so expensive'. A mtg deck can cost very little, even a moderately competitive standard deck need not cost much with some careful trading. If you just want to get on the Internet, copy the latest Tournanent winning deck and go to online traders to buy all the cards, then yes it will cost a lot. If you don't like that, then use some imagination, make something different and trade for cards and make something cheaper for a lot less.
So mtg 'rotate' their sets in one format only every couple of years. Not like GW who 'rotate' their rulesets every four years and beginning another tedious cycle of codex releases making the old ones redundant. In which they do, in fact, make older things obsolete or at least unfavourable to competitive players (as we are trying to compare to the competitive mtg player). I used to play Dogs of War and Chaos Dwarves, if only I had played Squats to complete the holy trinity. But there's also the many games that GW have made and then ceased. Which it isn't unreasonable to expect people not to play long discontinued stuff in your corporate shops, but mtg cards from 20 years ago are still playable in Wizards sponsored events.
I don't see why mtg is criticised for 'rotating' sets which only affects one of many formats that they support. But these people then praise GW who rehash their rulesets and write off all the books you already owned making them not game legal anywhere but your own home/club. The only place you can play older GW games is with mates at home, they don't support them at all and would actively prevent you playing them in store.
How many mtg cards can you 'officially' use from 20 years ago? Most, in commander or legacy/vintage formats. How many books and models from 20 years ago can you 'officially' use from GW? None of the books and a lot of the figures you cannot because they just don't fit the game unless you 'counts-as' or convert them. So they are obsolete, there's just a work around if you have a willing opponent. Many mtg cards are as game legal now as when they were printed.
Coutning down the days until i walk into Walmart and see GW products for sale in the toy section. I wouldnt put it pass them to do so. They turned it into video games made a movie that sucked (that i also bought at walmart lol). Its just a matter of time before the once underground hobby breaks the mold and jumps ship to big box retailers. Until then i would be happy with what products they do offer now. Because when they do cross over the lack of detail and care put into the game will be gone.
This has nothing to do with our discussion about your fallacious comparison of a 40k gamer deciding to not buying GW to someone who'd never buy a Ferrari anyway deciding to not buy a Ferrari, but whatevs, I'll bite.
Sure it does. That is the context.
Guy A says he's dissatisfied with GW and will write a letter. Guy B responds that letters won't change things, he ought to "vote with his wallet" and not buy GW stuff anymore.
Guy B is clearly wrong for the reasons I outlined.
Clearly? Hardly.
The "reasons you outlined" are fallacious because there is a significant difference between a customer who quits being a customer and a non-customer who was never going to be a customer anyway.
I'd imagine that if a large percentage of people who were spending money on GW quit doing so then they'd probably notice it. Do it enough and even the most stubborn business will decide that whatever they're doing isn't working.
Large percentage =/= 1 or 2 guys boycotting. If you have a system that you can rely on to actually make a large (>50%?) percentage of GW customers follow your lead, we're talking about something else entirely.
When did I say 1 or 2 people boycotting GW was going to change the world? When did I say I was leading the charge to do so? All I said was that a current GW customer who stops buying their products means more to them as a business than someone who was never going to be a customer who doesn't buy their products and that X GW customers deciding to not buy their product will do more than X GW customer writing a letter and continuing to give them money.
GW may think that kids buying one or two sets are the foundation of their business, but I imagine that the only reason those kids get interested in the first place is because they saw a game (at least, that was my experience). No repeat customers playing the game means less of those kids buying one or two sets and then quitting.
Speculation.
Moreover, GW most probably has data indicating the exact opposite, or they wouldn't be closing all those battle bunkers and focus on one-person stores with only tiny demo-tables for newbies, and (!) report rising profits.
It's obvious GW cares about 1 thing: money (which is only proper - they are a business), but they don't seem to recognize that there is any sort of link between keeping their player base happy and making money - and maybe there isn't, which is why they've ignored the letters and the forum grumbling etc. because, at the end of the day, most of the people that bitch and complain still go out and buy all the new toys GW puts out.
Perhaps. But walking away won't change the company. Writing letters likely may not either, but it's an effort to do. If walking away from GW makes you happier because there is no (or not enough) enjoyment for you in their products, do it! But walking away with the intent of changing GW (and presumably coming back if they change) is a gazillion-times more far-fetched than writing a letter with the intent of changing GW.
Money is the bottom line. Losing $1,000,000 in profits will do a hell of a lot more to change how a business thinks than getting 1,000,000 angry letters with no effect on the bottom line.
I don't have a dog in this fight because GW's practices don't really bother me that much (though it'd be nice to be able to get a game of 40k on as easily as it was a decade ago), but if I had to choose between getting letters or losing money I know which one I'd pick and I know which one would more likely make me reevaluate my business model.
Again, your personal decision and how it affects you is something other than trying to influence a large, publicly listed business (which isn't a 5-guy start-up either btw.).
And even if you run a 5-guy start-up, you will not kiss up to every random whim and complaint of every single (potential) customer who might voice their concerns. Trust me. You won't. Or you won't be in business more than 5 minutes. If in doubt, you're most probably going to listen to the feedback of customers who DO spend money.
I imagine I'd be more likely to listen to the feedback of people who stopped giving me money because they were dissatisfied with my business than the people who bitch about it while still continuing to give me money.
I mean, it's obvious I don't need to change anything for the people that just keep giving me money, so why bother changing? It's the people who used to give me money but then stopped that I'd need to change my business for if I wanted to get them to start giving me money again.
cincydooley wrote: I always read about this whole, "GW doesn't care about repeat business" and "GW doesn't care about the older collector."
Doesn't Apocalypse and it's original intent sort of spit in the face of that assertation?
No it GW spitting in are faces. Epic tells us so, you know the game in a scale that works for Apocalypse size game. But, guess what it didn't make as much money as there main lines, so we get the joke they now call Apocalypse.
Businesses care about lost customers. They want to know why the customer quit spending money with them and they want to get them back.
Because someone who is a potential customer deciding not to spend money on your products means a hell of a lot more than someone who was never a potential customer deciding not to spend money on your products.
So no, a person not spending money is =/= to any other person not spending money.
But how would you convince GW (or any company) that you are indeed such a potential customer (and not a never-would-even-consider-customer) if not by spending some money or, at the very least, writing a letter?
For all intents and purposes, you may well be a "never-a-potential-customer" unless you make the effort to communicate, as done by the OP.
I am not disagreeing that - academically speaking - there is a difference between these two types of customers you describe. For practical purposes, i.e. the information and "market signals" that'll arrive in Nottingham, there isn't.
It is called a marketing division, that how GW would know, just like every other company out there. It not some letter it is market research, that will do that. They be dumb to use letters from a very small %, in the first place.
cincydooley wrote: I always read about this whole, "GW doesn't care about repeat business" and "GW doesn't care about the older collector."
Doesn't Apocalypse and it's original intent sort of spit in the face of that assertation?
No it GW spitting in are faces. Epic tells us so, you know the game in a scale that works for Apocalypse size game. But, guess what it didn't make as much money as there main lines, so we get the joke they now call Apocalypse.
I like using my 40k models that I've been accumulating for years in Apoc. I have no interest in buying a brand new model system to play Apoc.
So what you're saying is you'd prefer if GW did an entirely different scale for their Apoc games. Got it.
If you do write a letter please be polite. And formulate it like this.
Dear Games Workshop.
I am writing this letter, to thank you for introducing me too the hobby.
MY friends and I started gaming after visiting one of your stores,
Sadly the store has reduced in size, and gaming there is no longer viable,
Forcing us to play at an independent store.
Whilst endeavoring to stay loyal and buy only GW products, to fill out, and paint my three armies.
This has been made harder by annual price rises, and product reductions. I understand market forces, but can’t believe a box of 5 is worth the same price as a box of ten.
I have forced to fill my armies with aftermarket figures, and accessories. My friends have joined other members of the community and are playing kings of war, and warmachine etc
I thank you again for introducing me to the gaming community, the ambiance is wonderful
My son and grandchildren are waiting for me so I have to go.
We have just bought them new armies for flames of war. And we have a game on bye .
SheSpits wrote: Coutning down the days until i walk into Walmart and see GW products for sale in the toy section. I wouldnt put it pass them to do so. They turned it into video games made a movie that sucked (that i also bought at walmart lol). Its just a matter of time before the once underground hobby breaks the mold and jumps ship to big box retailers. Until then i would be happy with what products they do offer now. Because when they do cross over the lack of detail and care put into the game will be gone.
Yeah, this isn't going to happen. Making a video game or two and a direct-to-dvd movie does not equal "going mainstream" and seeing Warhammer models in a Wal Mart. They've been making Warhammer videogames since the early 90s.
joe_deman wrote: I don't know about you guys. But i didn't get into the hobby for its discount prices. I've always recognized that GW products are expensive. Even that they're more expensive that comparable games systems. GW has their reasons for their prices. and i don't care (that much). Within reason, i'll likely pay.
However, i was hoping to read something more in your letter about the rising hostility in GW staffers to hobbyists. I mean this literally. I know geek kids geek out and they're loud and rambunctious. But there has to be better ways of dealing with them than border line abusive behaviour. Also, never mind the kids (they're occasionally annoying). Mature hobbyists are being subject to similar behaviour. Being restricted about talking about non-gw game systems in store? Even games like monopoly or trouble? Really?! Perhaps these are isolated to the local staffers in my area. But... i somehow doubt it. No one is that douchy because they enjoy being horrible to almost everyone who's not buying their stuff at that exact moment. I talked with one opponent the other day who had been harassed at his local GW because the MOD had checked the logs and noticed he was using models that hadn't been bought in store. NOT that he was using other game system models or even extreme conversions, but that he was using GW models that hadn't been bought there.
REALLY, i am telling this story as i was told it. And knowing the individual he was talking about... i'm not surprised.
I would love it. LOVE IT if GW actually changed this draconian attitude towards business and just chilled for a bit. Personally i suspect this kind of attitude has come to the forefront with the public selling of the company. Now there are stock holders to be held accountable to
I have definitely seen a pattern in online accounts detailing borderline abusive staff members and threats towards longtime customers, however, as I have never experienced such treatment, in fact, my store owner has always been perfectly nice, (perhaps distant and superior, but never hostile) and so I decided that it was better left to those who have experienced such events to complain about them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and thank you to those that have actually given me feedback on the letter itself, as for my mark, I'd say that due to the number of complaints I don't have much higher than a D+ at this p0int
joe_deman wrote: I don't know about you guys. But i didn't get into the hobby for its discount prices. I've always recognized that GW products are expensive. Even that they're more expensive that comparable games systems. GW has their reasons for their prices. and i don't care (that much). Within reason, i'll likely pay.
However, i was hoping to read something more in your letter about the rising hostility in GW staffers to hobbyists. I mean this literally. I know geek kids geek out and they're loud and rambunctious. But there has to be better ways of dealing with them than border line abusive behaviour. Also, never mind the kids (they're occasionally annoying). Mature hobbyists are being subject to similar behaviour. Being restricted about talking about non-gw game systems in store? Even games like monopoly or trouble? Really?! Perhaps these are isolated to the local staffers in my area. But... i somehow doubt it. No one is that douchy because they enjoy being horrible to almost everyone who's not buying their stuff at that exact moment. I talked with one opponent the other day who had been harassed at his local GW because the MOD had checked the logs and noticed he was using models that hadn't been bought in store. NOT that he was using other game system models or even extreme conversions, but that he was using GW models that hadn't been bought there.
REALLY, i am telling this story as i was told it. And knowing the individual he was talking about... i'm not surprised.
I would love it. LOVE IT if GW actually changed this draconian attitude towards business and just chilled for a bit. Personally i suspect this kind of attitude has come to the forefront with the public selling of the company. Now there are stock holders to be held accountable to
I have definitely seen a pattern in online accounts detailing borderline abusive staff members and threats towards longtime customers, however, as I have never experienced such treatment, in fact, my store owner has always been perfectly nice, (perhaps distant and superior, but never hostile) and so I decided that it was better left to those who have experienced such events to complain about them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and thank you to those that have actually given me feedback on the letter itself, as for my mark, I'd say that due to the number of complaints I don't have much higher than a D+ at this p0int
SheSpits wrote: Coutning down the days until i walk into Walmart and see GW products for sale in the toy section. I wouldnt put it pass them to do so. They turned it into video games made a movie that sucked (that i also bought at walmart lol). Its just a matter of time before the once underground hobby breaks the mold and jumps ship to big box retailers. Until then i would be happy with what products they do offer now. Because when they do cross over the lack of detail and care put into the game will be gone.
I used to be able to walk into Waldenbooks and buy Rogue Trader and, later, second edition WH40K.
I used to be able to walk into Toys 'R' Us and buy Lord of the Rings. Pretty sure that you could walk into Walmart and buy the LotR game at that same time.
And, in me estimation, at least as much 'detail and care' went into those rules then as now.
The detail on the miniatures has improved - but the difference in detail on the miniatures has as much or more to do with improvements in materials as anything else.
Modern putties hold finer detail.
Modern plastic injection technologies allow finer details on the inexpensive to produce plastic troops.
If returning to the bookstores helped GW grow the hobby? I'd be happy to see it.
I don't see it happening though - GW is entrenching, not expanding.
Maybe if and when somebody else takes over the helm of GW and Kirby retires to his palace. I have little to no complaints about GW's game designers, other than when they release rules for a New! Shiny! model based on marketing instead of play.
I have very nice things to say about some of their sculptors - alas an ever diminishing selection. But Jes Goodwin is still one of the three sculptors that I place on my list of the best.
I would not mention the parts about you going off to college and not affording the hobby. If you try and include as many facts from as many other people as you can, it would be a lot more helpful. Try and hear from a bunch of people, and put quick summaries in there, as well as statistics about certain declines. All this would make it sound a lot more legitimate. The vocabulary and wording is pretty good though. So I say, sure, send it out! I mean, what do you have to lose except postage money? One letter won't make much of a difference, but if we all pitch in and send one, I'm sure we might eventually change their mind.
SheSpits wrote: Coutning down the days until i walk into Walmart and see GW products for sale in the toy section. I wouldnt put it pass them to do so. They turned it into video games made a movie that sucked (that i also bought at walmart lol). Its just a matter of time before the once underground hobby breaks the mold and jumps ship to big box retailers. Until then i would be happy with what products they do offer now. Because when they do cross over the lack of detail and care put into the game will be gone.
Yeah, this isn't going to happen. Making a video game or two and a direct-to-dvd movie does not equal "going mainstream" and seeing Warhammer models in a Wal Mart. They've been making Warhammer videogames since the early 90s.
Why are you getting so worked up over it? Im just saying i wouldnt put it past them to hit big box retailers if they had the chance. Like a scaled down version of 40k , Isnt there already somthing like that in a board game version? Im not trying to bash O'L HOLY GW!
SheSpits wrote: Coutning down the days until i walk into Walmart and see GW products for sale in the toy section. I wouldnt put it pass them to do so. They turned it into video games made a movie that sucked (that i also bought at walmart lol). Its just a matter of time before the once underground hobby breaks the mold and jumps ship to big box retailers. Until then i would be happy with what products they do offer now. Because when they do cross over the lack of detail and care put into the game will be gone.
Yeah, this isn't going to happen. Making a video game or two and a direct-to-dvd movie does not equal "going mainstream" and seeing Warhammer models in a Wal Mart. They've been making Warhammer videogames since the early 90s.
Why are you getting so worked up over it? Im just saying i wouldnt put it past them to hit big box retailers if they had the chance. Like a scaled down version of 40k , Isnt there already somthing like that in a board game version? Im not trying to bash O'L HOLY GW!
Hivefleet Oblivion wrote: Best recent example I can think of was the oft-repeated post about LOTR troops doubling in price. It's been posted here several times - but point out that prices actually went up 33%, and the poor sensitive haters get all upset. They can't bear the prospect of anybody puncturing their World Of Misery!
I see you have a UK flag by your name. Have you been tracking the prices in other locations and their changes since the contents were halved? Here, the prices have more than doubled.
In short, your facts are 100% wrong.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Zweischneid wrote:Large percentage =/= 1 or 2 guys boycotting. If you have a system that you can rely on to actually make a large (>50%?) percentage of GW customers follow your lead, we're talking about something else entirely.
It's certainly had an effect in the aggregate. If GW was selling the same number of miniatures as they were in 2005, they'd have no idea what to do with all the money. Since then, they've more than halved their units sold. The CHS lawsuit sales spreadsheet showed us just how little sales have fallen to on the volume side. As well as the closing of the production facility at Memphis and the massive cuts to production staff. GW keeps their revenue up with massive price increases and they are not as immune to such economics concept as elasticity as they would like to pretend.
redthirst wrote:The "reasons you outlined" are fallacious because there is a significant difference between a customer who quits being a customer and a non-customer who was never going to be a customer anyway.
I'm quoting redthirst here, Zweischneid, so you know that what I'm about to say explains exactly what the difference between these two groups of people who are not buying GW product really is.
The people who would never buy GW anyway can never be reached by GW while those with a previous history with their products can. There is nothing GW can do to reach the non-customer who is never going to be a customer, but those who used to be their customer until they decided to "vote with their wallets" can indeed be reached again. Many absolutely love 40k and WFB and just wish the company making the product they like would handle things properly. Many are practically begging GW to do something to change the situation so they can justify buying again.
In short, the very very clear difference is found by asking from whom GW has a chance of getting money. The difference between a lost customer and someone who was never and never will be your customer is that the lost customer can be recovered. The damage can be reversed.
And GW KNOWS. They shut down their facebook pages due to this sort of feedback. They know that the customer base is not happy and since they don't understand the internet, they put their head in the sand rather than dealt with things.
redthirst wrote:I mean, it's obvious I don't need to change anything for the people that just keep giving me money, so why bother changing? It's the people who used to give me money but then stopped that I'd need to change my business for if I wanted to get them to start giving me money again.
It's just so obvious, I don't know why Z has dug in his heels on this.
In order to get attention you might start your letter like this:
Dear Mr. Kirby,
My name is___________. I am the 10 year old son of a Saudi oil Sheik. Because I have 24 older brothers, father says I will never have any real responsibility and should get on with spending the $200 Million that is my share of the family fortune. I think your toy soldiers are swell....................
Of course, writing it in crayon would be the finishing touch.
Jehan-reznor wrote: Comparing Finecrap to a Ferrari, what a screwed up analogy.
Aside from the whole, non-essential luxury item thing, you're completely right.
And the customer service, status, quality, investment etcetera.
GW customer service is fantastic
If you're playing a miniatures game you're probably not concerned about "status"
GW plastics lead the industry even if you don't like the aesthetic
Few people invest in cars because very few can even be considered an investment.
Replacing parts that shouldn't be broken in the first place, isn't great customer service In my book (1 man store, no game tables, no more GW tournaments is also not good Customer service)
That is why the Ferrari anology is wrong, people buy these high end cars to impress and show their status.
If you know your car's (some) Ferrari cars can be considered an investment like the Enzo and older rare Ferrari's
GW plastics don't lead the industry, shop around, Tamiya, Bandai, even Dreamforge has better detail/price value
Jehan-reznor wrote: Replacing parts that shouldn't be broken in the first place, isn't great customer service In my book (1 man store, no game tables, no more GW tournaments is also not good Customer service)
Broken parts are always going to happen, and different companies deal with it in different ways. Look at Corvus Belli - they pack a 'complaint code' with every part, so when a customer rings them to complain, they know what it was and can immediately ship them a replacement. Are Corvus Belli the terrible hobby ogres GW are for doing this?
Jehan-reznor wrote: GW plastics don't lead the industry, shop around, Tamiya, Bandai, even Dreamforge has better detail/price value
'The industry' being wargames. GW's plastic really are the best in this industry. No other company has gotten the same detail, parts packed in per sprue, or even sheer size of kits. You might not like the aesthetics or, obviously, the price, but GW's plastic development amongst other wargaming companies hasn't been surpassed yet.
Jehan-reznor wrote: Replacing parts that shouldn't be broken in the first place, isn't great customer service In my book (1 man store, no game tables, no more GW tournaments is also not good Customer service)
Broken parts are always going to happen, and different companies deal with it in different ways. Look at Corvus Belli - they pack a 'complaint code' with every part, so when a customer rings them to complain, they know what it was and can immediately ship them a replacement. Are Corvus Belli the terrible hobby ogres GW are for doing this?
Jehan-reznor wrote: GW plastics don't lead the industry, shop around, Tamiya, Bandai, even Dreamforge has better detail/price value
'The industry' being wargames. GW's plastic really are the best in this industry. No other company has gotten the same detail, parts packed in per sprue, or even sheer size of kits. You might not like the aesthetics or, obviously, the price, but GW's plastic development amongst other wargaming companies hasn't been surpassed yet.
So like with the first Xbox 360 the Finecrap failures are within normal Tolerances? Yes most companies have this, but people making that Ferrari anology about GW having so much quality , then i want no flash when i buy plastics and no deformed resin from GW or forgeworld, if they are the supposed leader, i don't see it in their quality control.
Well wargames factory and Dreamforge plastics are just as good as the GW plastics IMHO
Jehan-reznor wrote: Well, wargames factory and Dreamforge plastics are just as good as the GW plastics IMHO
I kind of disagree - when GW makes a good plastic kit they do it up fine.
I have the very old plastic Empire halberdiers, and the more recent Empire Archers and Crossbow/Handgun units - and like them all.
The more recent stuff has been more hit than miss, and I have not bought any GW in a year and a half, but they can make some fine models.
Wargames Factory... I will not deal with them after the methods used during the takeover. In the sets from when I used to buy from them... I like the trench coat infantry....
Defiance (the folks that used to run Wargames Factory) also has some very nice plastics, including some not-USMC-in-Space. (Not GW style space marines - USMC style marines.... good for IG, maybe - I use them for 2300.)
Jehan-reznor wrote: Replacing parts that shouldn't be broken in the first place, isn't great customer service In my book (1 man store, no game tables, no more GW tournaments is also not good Customer service)
Broken parts are always going to happen, and different companies deal with it in different ways. Look at Corvus Belli - they pack a 'complaint code' with every part, so when a customer rings them to complain, they know what it was and can immediately ship them a replacement. Are Corvus Belli the terrible hobby ogres GW are for doing this?
Jehan-reznor wrote: GW plastics don't lead the industry, shop around, Tamiya, Bandai, even Dreamforge has better detail/price value
'The industry' being wargames. GW's plastic really are the best in this industry. No other company has gotten the same detail, parts packed in per sprue, or even sheer size of kits. You might not like the aesthetics or, obviously, the price, but GW's plastic development amongst other wargaming companies hasn't been surpassed yet.
I'm in no position to compare detail on the models as I haven't handled them but I do believe Dreamforge beat GW on parts packed per sprue and defiantly on size of the kits.
I'm in no position to compare detail on the models as I haven't handled them but I do believe Dreamforge beat GW on parts packed per sprue and defiantly on size of the kits.
The detail on both models are amazing, I can only compare the 20 man stormtroopers (DF) to the 10 man cadian (GW), but if you roughly halved the stormtrooper box I think they'd be kind of similar, maybe a tiny bit more in the DF box, but not enough to either confidently say DF has more, or to say that it is a better kit because of the additonal bits. I like the DF kit more because of the scale and I like their armour, but then we are just getting into personal taste territory
TheAuldGrump wrote:One way that GW is like Ferrari - Buy vintage, not new....
This is very true. Buying used just makes so much more sense for GW product.
And while some don't like the 90s style, I still love the 2nd edition 40k models as well as the 3rd and some 4th edition WFB miniatures. They have a true unique character.
While I feel that GW will ignore any amount of concerned letters, all the while in denial of the multitude of leaks and the circling sharks, I do applaud your sentiments.
I have been in the hobby since I was 11 with a hiatus between 16-22. During that time I hate to think how much money I have spent in GW. I play both wh and 40k go to gamesday most years and typically spend £150-£300 at the Forgeworld stand every time.
Now I feel this makes me more valuable to GW than any teenager dipping into the hobby. However do I feel that GW recognises this? Do I bollocks! I no longer shop in GW stores, I will still continue to buy discount from the Internet and second hand from ebay. Mainly because of the prices and because of the irritating GW employee teenager in my local store who tries to tell me what I should be buying, I wouldn't normally mind but he knows jack. What's worse is he uses the same gak to sell crap kits to some of my students that they don't need. Recently however I have spoken to their parents and pointed out that its cheaper online from independents.
My only hope for GW these days is that someone with some sense who isn't a sue-happy totalitarian fascist buys them out when they go under.
Now I feel this makes me more valuable to GW than any teenager dipping into the hobby.
Adult collector fans overestimating their personal value. Hasbro has to do a presentation every year to put 'the fandom' in their place showing how insignificant they really are.
Adult collectors are always like 'I have disposable income! I can spend 200$ at the drop of a hat! That 8 year old turd can barely get Grandma to buy him a 20$ birthday present. The truth is, those 8-year olds with granny outnumber the adult collector to drastic extremes.
Hasbro every year says 'this is how much of our revenue came from 'adult collectors' and it is usually between 7-10% total. Considering how GW has said things in the past like 2/3rds of their customers never play the game and they want turn over to new kids... and Collectors admitting they mostly do second hand market, GW might have valid reason to discount a large portion of the FANDOM as the FANDOm is a small portion of the actual customerbase. I know this to be documented empirical fact for a lot of 'FANDOMs' on the internet so I don't expect that Wargaming is an exception without data proving otherwise.
azreal13 wrote: Just to derail these thread momentarily, where in Devon are you Ugly Green Trog?
I'm based in Exeter mate.
@ nkselch: while they may outnumber me I have given the company more profit over the years than them as individuals. I appreciate I am not the target market but GW doesn't even give a nod to people like me these days. By all means focus on the target market but don't go out of your way to alienate all other customers.
@cincydooley: so I exaggerate but you have to admit that GWs attitude of issuing cease and desists left and right as well as denying that any other game system or miniature company exists is rather far right. Not to mention killing off any individuality in terrain within stores. My local GW used to have some really awesome boards that really inspired hobbyists, now its just so meh I don't even bother to look at it.
Im actually going to write my own letter now... thank you for inspiring me OP.
For those who would rather nit-pick or scold because it makes you sound, I pity you... It must feel nice to know that some people who suck are willing to accept your demeaning personality but the OP shouldnt be getting it, it should be the "model" company who has assumed the self-appointed title of "best model makerz evar!!!" who get those comments.
You would rather roll over and let them do what they wish? Or are you that self-deluded that you think inaction fixes anything?
If everyone who is frustrated with GWs pricing, shock-sale tactics and overall disregard for the buyer wrote to them, Im sure the number is in the hundred thousands by now, something tells me they wouldnt be able to get by on pre-printed response letters... you voice enough opinion, and they'll have to do something... you vocalize your concern and others will read it and realize "oh I dont like that they're doing that either". Or we can just follow you suggestions and quit the hobby, because you assume they wont replace you with some other kid, or some other parents money...
So stop being lazy, write a letter, call them, PM them twitter them, blog them, do something!
WarlordRob117 wrote: Im actually going to write my own letter now... thank you for inspiring me OP.
For those who would rather nit-pick or scold because it makes you sound, I pity you... It must feel nice to know that some people who suck are willing to accept your demeaning personality but the OP shouldnt be getting it, it should be the "model" company who has assumed the self-appointed title of "best model makerz evar!!!" who get those comments.
You would rather roll over and let them do what they wish? Or are you that self-deluded that you think inaction fixes anything?
If everyone who is frustrated with GWs pricing, shock-sale tactics and overall disregard for the buyer wrote to them, Im sure the number is in the hundred thousands by now, something tells me they wouldnt be able to get by on pre-printed response letters... you voice enough opinion, and they'll have to do something... you vocalize your concern and others will read it and realize "oh I dont like that they're doing that either". Or we can just follow you suggestions and quit the hobby, because you assume they wont replace you with some other kid, or some other parents money...
So stop being lazy, write a letter, call them, PM them twitter them, blog them, do something!
Be part of the solution, not the problem...
GW is not the Hobby, no one ever said quit the Hobby. They said prove you upset and stop giving them your money, or all the letter is doing is saying "Hey GW, I really dislike how your doing thing. But, it doesn't really matter, here some more cash anyways. Hope you change how you do thing, so I can still spend what I do now." Why would they change, it would just cost money to change, money they don't have to spend because it not going to change to amount they make. Show me there reason for GW to change there market plan, please.
WarlordRob117 wrote: Im actually going to write my own letter now... thank you for inspiring me OP.
Make sure you sharpen your crayons before doing so.
For those who would rather nit-pick or scold because it makes you sound, I pity you... It must feel nice to know that some people who suck are willing to accept your demeaning personality but the OP shouldnt be getting it, it should be the "model" company who has assumed the self-appointed title of "best model makerz evar!!!" who get those comments.
Sound what? Pithy? Clever? Mean? Might want to finish your sentence there, slugger. And you put quotations around the word model. Why? Are you making a pun about GW being a "model" miniatures company. Or are you in fact questioning that that produce models? Elaborate.
You would rather roll over and let them do what they wish? Or are you that self-deluded that you think inaction fixes anything?
Quite a few people on this thread have advocated for voting with your wallet if you have a problem. Or are you that self-deluded that you think writing a letter they won't bother reading fixes anything?
If everyone who is frustrated with GWs pricing, shock-sale tactics and overall disregard for the buyer stopped buying product, Im sure the number is in the hundred thousands by now, something tells me they wouldnt be able to get by on pre-printed response letters... you put a big enough dent in their bottom line, and they'll have to do something...
Fixed that for you.
So stop being lazy, write a letter, call them, PM them twitter them, blog them, do something!
WarlordRob117 wrote: Im actually going to write my own letter now... thank you for inspiring me OP.
Make sure you sharpen your crayons before doing so.
For those who would rather nit-pick or scold because it makes you sound, I pity you... It must feel nice to know that some people who suck are willing to accept your demeaning personality but the OP shouldnt be getting it, it should be the "model" company who has assumed the self-appointed title of "best model makerz evar!!!" who get those comments.
Sound what? Pithy? Clever? Mean? Might want to finish your sentence there, slugger. And you put quotations around the word model. Why? Are you making a pun about GW being a "model" miniatures company. Or are you in fact questioning that that produce models? Elaborate.
You would rather roll over and let them do what they wish? Or are you that self-deluded that you think inaction fixes anything?
Quite a few people on this thread have advocated for voting with your wallet if you have a problem. Or are you that self-deluded that you think writing a letter they won't bother reading fixes anything?
If everyone who is frustrated with GWs pricing, shock-sale tactics and overall disregard for the buyer stopped buying product, Im sure the number is in the hundred thousands by now, something tells me they wouldnt be able to get by on pre-printed response letters... you put a big enough dent in their bottom line, and they'll have to do something...
Fixed that for you.
So stop being lazy, write a letter, call them, PM them twitter them, blog them, do something!
Be part of the solution, not the problem...
Your proselytizing is adorable.
Cincy, with as much as you defend the almighty GW, at least have some decorum and pick apart peoples complaints without resorting to base insults like "sharpening your crayons". If you want to defend GW, at least act like an adult about it. The endless insults to anyone who speaks ill of them is getting old.
If you don't like their practices, speak with your wallet. I've said that about 4 times in this thread.
Writing a letter (especially one with the content like the OPs) isn't going to do a damn thing. Not a thing. Bitching about it online, though I realize is certainly a right, isn't going to do a damn thing about it.
Here, so I can fit in, I'll criticize GW some:
I don't like their limited release policy for their Horus Heresy novellas, especially when they there limited in number and not time frame (whoops, that's almost an admission that they fixed a problem. My bad).
Finecast had a lot of problems at the outset, particuarly when it came to models like the Terminator Librarian. There were some truly abysmal casts produced that they should be ashamed of.
I wish for Chaos Space Marines they'd have updated the normal marine box with the new models. There's a real discord between the DV models and the Raptors and the old releases.
Um..lets see. What else. I guess I'd like their prices to be lower, but I'd also like gas to be cheaper, a St. Elmo's or Ruby's steak to only cost $20 bucks, and for the markup on my favorite bourbon at the bar to not be 400%.
That's all I've got for now. I'll try to think of some more so I can better fit in.
If you don't like their practices, speak with your wallet. I've said that about 4 times in this thread.
Writing a letter (especially one with the content like the OPs) isn't going to do a damn thing. Not a thing. Bitching about it online, though I realize is certainly a right, isn't going to do a damn thing about it.
Here, so I can fit in, I'll criticize GW some:
I don't like their limited release policy for their Horus Heresy novellas, especially when they there limited in number and not time frame (whoops, that's almost an admission that they fixed a problem. My bad).
Finecast had a lot of problems at the outset, particuarly when it came to models like the Terminator Librarian. There were some truly abysmal casts produced that they should be ashamed of.
I wish for Chaos Space Marines they'd have updated the normal marine box with the new models. There's a real discord between the DV models and the Raptors and the old releases.
Um..lets see. What else. I guess I'd like their prices to be lower, but I'd also like gas to be cheaper, a St. Elmo's or Ruby's steak to only cost $20 bucks, and for the markup on my favorite bourbon at the bar to not be 400%.
That's all I've got for now. I'll try to think of some more so I can better fit in.
I believe it wasn't your viewpoint, in this or any other thread, that was being questioned, but your manner of expressing it?
I was trying to respond to his claim that I was defending GW. I wasn't. I was simply speaking against useless endeavors, of which writing letters to GW is.
I made the crayons comment to imply that I think the posters comment was childish. Perhaps I should have made less if an attempt to be witty and simply said, "your attitude is childish "
I really wish that I thought that a letter, or any number of letters, would help with GW.
As for Hasbro and adult fans.... the situation with GW may be closer to Paizo's Pathfinder and adult fans - where most of the purchases are made by adult fans, who then play with the toys they bought along with other adult fans that bring the stuff that they bought. (And I... am one of those adult fans. )
That the younger players likely play because they know older players or play with younger players that do.
The adult fans audience is why Paizo has been more willing to approach mature topics than WotC has been.
And why they treat their fans as adults.
WotC, on the other hand, tried for the younger crowd with 4e... and has since abandoned the line.... They tried to follow their parent corporation's demographic, and it failed.
cincydooley wrote: I was trying to respond to his claim that I was defending GW. I wasn't. I was simply speaking against useless endeavors, of which writing letters to GW is.
I made the crayons comment to imply that I think the posters comment was childish. Perhaps I should have made less if an attempt to be witty and simply said, "your attitude is childish "
See, now saying "your attitude is childish" would have been the adult way to convey that thought. It's being critical without being condescending, and it goes a long way.
For all the complaining I've got about GW, I still buy their products, albeit in smaller quantities spread out over more time, but that only really has to do with prices being what they are now. What used to be $500-800 a year is now about $250-300 with some years being far less depending on new releases.
So while GW hasn't lost all of the money I've got to spend, they have lost a lot of it, and they could easily earn it back if they wanted to. Do I feel inclined to write them letters? Not in the least, only because I know that with a company that size said letter goes in a bin that gets replied to by some twit who makes minimum wage and uses boilerplate responses.
At the end of the day, all I'm saying is if you're going to be critical(which is fine and is your right) then please be polite about it. You don't have to "jump on the GW complaint wagon".
cincydooley wrote: I was trying to respond to his claim that I was defending GW. I wasn't. I was simply speaking against useless endeavors, of which writing letters to GW is.
I made the crayons comment to imply that I think the posters comment was childish. Perhaps I should have made less if an attempt to be witty and simply said, "your attitude is childish "
There's ways n means mate. I feel less inclined to read your posts because of the attitude that comes across in them, making barbed comments and ignoring arguments while picking apart a posters writing style or lack of grammar just comes across as aggressive.
Rightly or wrongly I feel you have a chip on your shoulder. We are mostly on Dakka for the same reason, our love of war gaming and miniatures, even if we disagree with someone we should argue in a constructive way as opposed to pulling apart their sentence structure. Being better at grammar doesn't make your point more valid than his.
Ugly Green Trog wrote: My only hope for GW these days is that someone with some sense who isn't a sue-happy totalitarian fascist buys them out
Maybe Apple Incorp- Oh, wait.
In seriousness, though, OP, I'd echo the sentiments regarding tidying the letter up a bit, and shifting the focus away from your inability to personally afford the product.
cincydooley wrote: I was trying to respond to his claim that I was defending GW. I wasn't. I was simply speaking against useless endeavors, of which writing letters to GW is.
I made the crayons comment to imply that I think the posters comment was childish. Perhaps I should have made less if an attempt to be witty and simply said, "your attitude is childish "
There's ways n means mate. I feel less inclined to read your posts because of the attitude that comes across in them, making barbed comments and ignoring arguments while picking apart a posters writing style or lack of grammar just comes across as aggressive.
Rightly or wrongly I feel you have a chip on your shoulder. We are mostly on Dakka for the same reason, our love of war gaming and miniatures, even if we disagree with someone we should argue in a constructive way as opposed to pulling apart their sentence structure. Being better at grammar doesn't make your point more valid than his.
I hardly attacked his sentence structure. I made a comment about an incomplete sentence. There's a difference there, IMO.
I argue in constructive ways plenty, but only when they warrant constructive and articulated responses. As much as Azrael and I disagree on gak, he can attest to this. So can plenty of other people here. I actually DID that earlier in this thread, but we keep having people coming back to these childish, "I'm going to write an ineffectual letter" comments and we're spinning in circles. If writing a letter is going to sate your desire for action, well by all means, do it. Just understand it isn't going to make a bit of difference.
Ways to "get back" at GW more effective than writing a letter:
1. Stop buying GW product yourself. Pretty self explanatory
2. Take up a NEW wargame and introduce it to your local gaming group. If you can convince them to take up the game, it's like way #1, except now you've got more people on board.
3. Protest a Large GW Event - Make some signs, gather a few friends, and exercise your American right to peaceful protest at Games Day Memphis. Or Warhammer World. It's really easy to delete an email or throw away a letter. You can't simply throw away people with signs protesting on public land.
I mean, I'll be honest. I don't have a ton of sympathy for people complaining about prices. You're not entitled to be able to buy any of this stuff. It isn't bread. It isn't milk. It isn't water. Hell, it isn't even gasoline. These toys that we construct and play with are completely disposable non-essential goods. Again, you aren't entitled to ANY of it. If stuff becomes more expensive than you're willing to pay, don't buy it. If you want a more expensive model, save for it. And while you're saving, go paint some of the grey plastic you have in your garage. That's what I've been doing.
If you were the Overlord of Games Workshop with singular unquestionable power over every aspect of the companies process and policy (just for the sake of argument), what would you do if you suddenly had a completely unexplained drop in sales? Raise prices, cut expenses. However, if a group of concerned customers had written you letters detailing why they weren't spending money on your products anymore, you may actually figure out an effective way to save your company rather than entering into a positive feedback loop in which you continue to raise prices to combat the lack of customers.
skink007 wrote: If you were the Overlord of Games Workshop with singular unquestionable power over every aspect of the companies process and policy (just for the sake of argument), what would you do if you suddenly had a completely unexplained drop in sales? Raise prices, cut expenses. However, if a group of concerned customers had written you letters detailing why they weren't spending money on your products anymore, you may actually figure out an effective way to save your company rather than entering into a positive feedback loop in which you continue to raise prices to combat the lack of customers.
Well, no.
Your "explanation" is dependent on the notion that the "Overlord of Games Workshop" would have no insight as to the 'why' of the declining sales. Even if that were the case, the typical outlook for a business losing sales in one area is to other innovate and find other avenues of revenue growth, NOT automatically increasing prices. Some real world examples:
-Coke was seeing a decline in their sales. They innovated with the "Freestyle" machines you can now find at tons of restaurants that allow you to make your own soda.
-Microsoft has steadily seen a decline in PC sales, so they introduced their tablet to the market.
And, quite frankly, this is precisely what GW has done as well. Do they have price increases? Sure. But they've also found other avenues of revenue through video games, the Black Library publishing arm, and through the "Mystery Box" releases that they have every so often to boost that revenue.
So no, I don't think your "group of concerned customers [writing] you letters detailing why they weren't spending money on your products anymore" has any bearing. Why? Because they already know why you're not spending your money. I realize it's like, the SUPER popular thing to do on here, but give GW the tiniest bit of credit in that they know how to run their business. As a publicly traded company, their shareholders demand it. Their methods to ensure their bottom line satisfies those shareholders may not appeal to you, but let's quit pretending they don't know what they're doing.
A letter can make a difference. Yeah, it's just anecdote, but I wrote a letter once to a big company, pointing out they should be doing something they weren't - and they gave me a job.
But, sadly, this letter won't do anything apart from allow the OP to express his frustration. For one thing, you need to empathise with the addressee - understand and anticipate their concerns, and what drives them. this letter expresses the OP's point of view, without caring about the addressee's POV, and will fail for that reason alone.
the fact that the OP hasn't even considered a named individual to whom the letter is addressed, says it all. If no single person is addressed, no single person will care. (I'm amazed that people still do this on job application letters, too, then complain they don't get a response. If you can't be bothered to find out the name of the person who has a job to offer, then that person won't be bothered to give a damn, either).
Finally, in terms of the OP's point of view, which is something that's pretty unanimous on this board, he looks at this from his own perspective without even addressing the issue of recruitment, beyond merely "lower prices". How do the OP's concerns relate to potential new buyers? He needs to address that - and understand that other people's concerns are not the same as his, and incorporate those in the case he is making.
I doubt this letter tells them anything they aren't aware of already, and worse still it doesn't suggest any real course of action for them to take to address the OP's concerns, other than "lower prices."
And, quite frankly, this is precisely what GW has done as well. Do they have price increases? Sure. But they've also found other avenues of revenue through video games, the Black Library publishing arm, and through the "Mystery Box" releases that they have every so often to boost that revenue.
This is a good point, in that the OP simply criticises, without first questioning what innovations GW are introducing. Even if they're not innnovating, they must think they're innovating.
From what I've read by those who've actually quizzed people there, , GW are actively recruiting, and have more sculptors than previously. THey've also invested in new machinery to make larger kits than previously. Now, even if you think that's a wrong move, you have to acknowledge they have a business strategy which goes beyond "keep shoving up prices" .
Hivefleet Oblivion wrote: Now, even if you think that's a wrong move, you have to acknowledge they have a business strategy which goes beyond "keep shoving up prices" .
You make very valid points, however I disagree that this strategy goes beyond shoving up prices. In my mind, and perhaps I'm the only one that sees this, but both 40k and WH have been increasingly dependent upon large models or large units. In fantasy, it is the era of the horde, MSU strategy is all but dead, and so, in the rules themselves, players are encouraged to simply buy more models. They are sacrificing game-play for profit. Maybe that's what a company thinks it needs to do, but if they sacrifice much more they will further degrade their customer base. In 40k, monsters/large models are becoming almost necessary. You hardly see a Tau list without a riptide or an Eldar list without a Wraith knight. Yeah those are the flavors of the recent months, but thats my point. Perhaps you see the fact that they disguise their price hikes as a 'different' business strategy, but to me it is hardly better than simply shoving up prices.
Hivefleet Oblivion wrote: Now, even if you think that's a wrong move, you have to acknowledge they have a business strategy which goes beyond "keep shoving up prices" .
You make very valid points...Perhaps you see the fact that they disguise their price hikes as a 'different' business strategy, but to me it is hardly better than simply shoving up prices.
Well, neither of us know, so you could well be right. I am suggesting, though, that even those who think that this is primarily their strategy - and that's your prerogative - have to acknowledge that this is not their only strategy. The designers themselves, for instance, are enthusiastic about the fact they can bring out more new models, and more big models. they obviously see a broader choice of more exciting stuff as their strategy.
More fundamentally, few MDs or marketing managers or other executives could get away with announcing a strategy and a budget for the forthcoming year, and simply say all theu're doing is pushing up prices. Not everyone is that cynical - it simply wouldn't fly. Now I (to my misfortune) have sat in on a lot of those sorts of meetings, especially when margins are being squeezed, and there will indeed be questions about elasticity of demand, whether we can charge more for new limited edition goodies, whether consumers will notice a price rise if it's packaged in a particular way (ie halving numbers of models in a pack but only reducing the price by 35%). When you're making budget, the money men will squeeze in every price rise they think they can get away with. But... you'd never get away with having price rises as your only strategy. It simply wouldn't wash. Price rises are a tactic, not a strategy.
I do of course acknowledge that some people in GW will be idiots. For instance, the people who oversee White Dwarf, who have managed to excise all the loving, DIY aesthetic which made it interesting, and have in the process made a number of fundamentally wrong decisions, which any publishing professional could instantly pinpoint. (For instance, wasting the same space on the same coverlines every issue, something only an idiot would countenance).
But I don't accept that all the people at GW are idiots, and even if I did, were I to write a letter to GW, I wouldn't make it obvious that this was my opinion.
Writing a letter and letting your feelings be known is better than staying silent. It costs you almost nothing, so why not? Worse case scenario, they ignore you.
I once wrote a letter to David Brooks of the New York Times. I will never know if he read it, but literally the next week, his column addressed the exact issue I raised in my email, word for word. Was it my email? Was it that he received a bunch of similar emails in that time-frame? Coincidence? No idea. But I felt good for raising my voice and maybe being heard.
I understand people bitch and moan about the prices at GW, and they believe that it is just price gouging for the sake of it. There will be some key metrics as to why prices go up and the value that they do. I’m not arguing that add a bit of extra on top however how many people in here have worked in a supply chain business and/or been part of the business that is at the top of said supply chain and actually know the makeup of the financials, impact on cash flow etc.
All things have a big impact. Let’s just take white dwarf as an example. Each year the cost of paper goes up by approximately 8%. The print house costs will go up (normally 5-8%) fuel prices go up (not too sure what the exact percentage is here). In the UK the introduction of the auto enrolled pension where the company has to match at least up to 5% of contributions.
Now as GW is PLC based all group profit from other regions will be fed back into the PLC, therefore ant fluctuation in exchange rate can massive hit profitability figures.
Also from the costs they will have to cover the cost of national insurance contributions, tax, employee wages and other financial benefits, the cost of their finances and holding. They will also have to write off depreciations of equipments against their profit.
This is all just using WD as an example. If we take into account the miniatures, any ramp up in production will result in more staff having to be recruited due to H&S laws even if this means that they are not at their most optimum. Large drop off will result in redundancies which cost a company that is solvent an arm and a leg. Need to factor in the fluctuating costs of oil, as well as the cost of the machinery maintenance (for those where they directly own the machine ie Lenton factory)
Im sure there are far more variable that will impact the cost of production, the company over heads ( staff, stores, utility bills etc) all of these factor in. GW is not a not for profit company set up for the good of the hobby, they cannot (due to shareholders) just absorb increases in costs, they have to pass these on.
Also their key market is the younger age group because like has been previously mentioned are the group which is forking over the most cash. If they retain just a small fraction of these it’s a bargain as there will always be more kids being born etc.
Don’t get me wrong I’m not saying I like the price increases however they are a business and it’s simply more than a yearly price increase just because they can, there are a lot of complex issues which directly and indirectly feed into the costs. Do you think a new store instantly breaks even? I wonder what the payback time is for these? There are multitudes of reasons.
People keep saying they should lower their prices and more people would buy stuff, well their market is the first time kids, dropping the prices won’t necessarily increase the volume of kids who get involved in these, to justify this.
Sorry for this rant, but I get annoyed when people just moan about prices without even considering what may be behind them. Also management clearly aren’t that incompetent as the hobby is still growing and expanding into new areas so this seems to counteract what people are saying.
skink007 wrote: If you were the Overlord of Games Workshop with singular unquestionable power over every aspect of the companies process and policy (just for the sake of argument), what would you do if you suddenly had a completely unexplained drop in sales? Raise prices, cut expenses. However, if a group of concerned customers had written you letters detailing why they weren't spending money on your products anymore, you may actually figure out an effective way to save your company rather than entering into a positive feedback loop in which you continue to raise prices to combat the lack of customers.
I would do what EVERY OTHER multi-million dollar company would do. Market research, I wouldn't look at a pile of letters hopeing the answer was there. Becouse I would want to keep my job.
@Cammy, now way don't other model company raise price the same % GW dose every year. Or do they not have the same cost raise for some reason, I know that don't jack up there price each year. I would really like to hear why you think that.
cammy wrote: I understand people bitch and moan about the prices at GW, and they believe that it is just price gouging for the sake of it. There will be some key metrics as to why prices go up and the value that they do. I’m not arguing that add a bit of extra on top however how many people in here have worked in a supply chain business and/or been part of the business that is at the top of said supply chain and actually know the makeup of the financials, impact on cash flow etc.
All things have a big impact. Let’s just take white dwarf as an example. Each year the cost of paper goes up by approximately 8%. The print house costs will go up (normally 5-8%) fuel prices go up (not too sure what the exact percentage is here). In the UK the introduction of the auto enrolled pension where the company has to match at least up to 5% of contributions.
Now as GW is PLC based all group profit from other regions will be fed back into the PLC, therefore ant fluctuation in exchange rate can massive hit profitability figures.
Also from the costs they will have to cover the cost of national insurance contributions, tax, employee wages and other financial benefits, the cost of their finances and holding. They will also have to write off depreciations of equipments against their profit.
This is all just using WD as an example. If we take into account the miniatures, any ramp up in production will result in more staff having to be recruited due to H&S laws even if this means that they are not at their most optimum. Large drop off will result in redundancies which cost a company that is solvent an arm and a leg. Need to factor in the fluctuating costs of oil, as well as the cost of the machinery maintenance (for those where they directly own the machine ie Lenton factory)
Im sure there are far more variable that will impact the cost of production, the company over heads ( staff, stores, utility bills etc) all of these factor in. GW is not a not for profit company set up for the good of the hobby, they cannot (due to shareholders) just absorb increases in costs, they have to pass these on.
Also their key market is the younger age group because like has been previously mentioned are the group which is forking over the most cash. If they retain just a small fraction of these it’s a bargain as there will always be more kids being born etc.
Don’t get me wrong I’m not saying I like the price increases however they are a business and it’s simply more than a yearly price increase just because they can, there are a lot of complex issues which directly and indirectly feed into the costs. Do you think a new store instantly breaks even? I wonder what the payback time is for these? There are multitudes of reasons.
People keep saying they should lower their prices and more people would buy stuff, well their market is the first time kids, dropping the prices won’t necessarily increase the volume of kids who get involved in these, to justify this.
Sorry for this rant, but I get annoyed when people just moan about prices without even considering what may be behind them. Also management clearly aren’t that incompetent as the hobby is still growing and expanding into new areas so this seems to counteract what people are saying.
(edited for spacings)
Your points about raw material costs are valid, except the actual, intrinsic cost increase on the materials used to produce either WD or a kit are tiny, as the cost of materials is a small percentage of the total cost of production. Therefore, a price rise in line with inflation would cover these rises, and no one could really grumble at that. GW frequently raises prices above inflation, so that somewhat undermines your point.
Also, increased staffing, and the proportionate increase in costs, in order to increase output, should only happen if the organisation is fairly confident that it will lead to an increase in sales that is at least in line to those costs. Now, they can get that wrong, of course, but crediting GW with at least enough nouse to know their market will respond to more stuff produced by buying more stuff, these increased costs shouldn't affect the profitability (as income should rise proportionately) so again, cannot be used to justify price increases.
Just to add a personal note, while many would label me a 'hater' (in reality my attitude is more complex, but hey, it's the internets, no shades of grey here) I have never advocated GW cut prices, I just feel they offer poor value, which is different, and much more easily addressed. Throwing an extra sprue in a troop box without increasing RRP would have very little impact on the cost to GW (cost per sprue produced, especially on established kits that have recouped tooling costs must literally be pennies) but a massive boost to value for the final consumer. Instead, GW have on several occasions done the exact opposite.
Games Workshop 6221 E Holmes Road Memphis, TN USA 38141
Dear sir or madam,
RE: - Return of two boxes of defective Chaos Space Marine Raptors File No.: - unknown --------------------------------- I write to you with regard to the above noted matter, pursuant to conversation with your service agents. To say the least, I am deeply dissatisfied with your product and your companies conduct with regard to this matter. I—and my wallet—have been frustrated by your company’s pricing and market policies, though I have always understood your imperative to remain competitive, yield dividends to investors and protect your intellectual product and continued to support your company. However, the quality of the Finecast line of product has done more damage to my willingness to support your company than any of your company’s changes or policies over the past ten years.
After the change from metal to resin was initiated by your company, I waited for your customers to report on the quality of the product before committing to any further purchases of any product produced by your company. Between the price increase and the scathing review of the quality of the initial Finecast products, I did not make any purchases, expecting that over time such issues would be resolved. The initial reports seemed fairly hopeful given the ease with which a replacement was obtained, and that flaws can be expected with the first batch. After a year on the market, and repeated reports of defective products in addition to repeated requests for replacements, I anticipated that the upcoming Finecast releases would resolve the issues reported in previous releases and that the issues present in previous editions would be resolved as well. I perused multiple forums on the internet and conducted my research as to how the issues around Finecast were proceeding. Having found no definitive answers (given that it’s granted that complaints are made more often and more loudly than praise), I proceeded on a leap of faith—and a steep discount—to purchase the Finecast Raptors in order to replace the metal versions of the same models I already had in my possession.
To say the least, I am deeply disappointed. This was my first ever purchase of your Finecast product and was disappointed by the garage-grade quality of the casts. Referring you your website, the description of Citadel Finecast provides the following:
“Miniatures bearing this logo are part of the Citadel Finecast range. All citadel models are incredibly detailed, high-quality resin kits.”
After having taken the liberty of comparing the new resin product against its metal predecessor, I found no difference in the quality of detail which your advertising campaign was predicated on. Whether the poor quality of the cast of the resin has anything to do with this, I am unsure, but on comparing the deformities, two boxes of resin models sold by your company featured more problems than I have ever experienced in my lifetime’s purchases of metal products from your company. Further comparisons also highlighted frustration surrounding the placement of the gates on the resin models. I had no qualms or problems with removing flash from metal or plastic models, but it is readily apparent that I can expect to expend more time and effort in cleaning and preparing the resin models than any plastic counterparts manufactured by your company.
When a company advertises that the product it produces is high-quality, I fully expect that the item I purchase will be in as-advertised conditions. I have purchased resin products from a number of your competitors on numerous occasions, many of which were garage-based operations, and never observed the scope of defects in the material or the models produced by those companies as can be observed in your product.
My first experience in purchasing resin products from your company has me concerned first that quality control is absent and second that your company has no intention of rectifying or acknowledging any issues with your line of products. I expect that when I purchase your product, I will not be required to expend any effort to restore the product to as-advertised condition. I accept that flash and mould lines need to be removed, but filing gaps, bending an unyielding substance back into shape and sculpting missing details onto the model do not strike me as hallmarks of a high quality product. I do not find it acceptable that at $55 CAD per box, and with the advertising campaign behind the Citadel Finecast line of product that bubbles, warping and miscasting of a model’s components is normal. If your company was based out of a garage, the quality evidenced in the above-noted boxes I purchased would be expected. Given that your company has been on the market for over twenty five years and enjoys a presence on every continent and pre-eminence in the world of miniature war gaming, the fact that I am not able to produce one box that satisfies your advertising standards from the two boxes I purchased, the quality control evidenced by my purchase, and the public relations disaster your company apparently insists on ignoring, on web forums is abysmal. By extension, given that the models and components in both boxes showed problems in the same places, as for instance on the inside rims of the jump-packs, the same suggests much to be desired by your casting process.
As a comparison, the resin products from Privateer Press show a higher degree of quality, made from a sturdier material, with infrequent miscasts. I have even purchased resin products from garage operations that featured fewer miscasts than the above-noted Citadel Finecast products. Further, I feel vindicated in the fact that over the past twelve months, all of the products I have purchased—speaking specifically with regard to those that have received the Finecast treatment—I have only ever purchased the metal variants second hand. With the public history of Citadel Finecast products, the only fact that enticed me to purchase the above-noted product was a steep discount from Miniwargaming, and a leap of faith that your company had had sufficient time to resolve the issues surrounding the casting process.
Pursuant to calls to your customer service agents, I am returning the defective products for replacement as instructed, however, for the reasons outlined above as well as my conversations with your other customers that have experienced the same issues with the Citadel Finecast line of products—who have in some cases exchanged defective models as many as seven times in the case of the limited edition models released for the 25th anniversary of Warhammer 40’000—I will accept a replacement only once. I refuse to invest any more time and effort to receive the product I paid for, given especially that I need to take time out of my work day to deal with this problem. I take this opportunity to advise you that if the replacements do not satisfy an acceptable standard of quality, I will be demanding a full refund of $75.08 CAD. For your benefit and ease of reference with regard to this file, I enclose a copy of the invoice. Lastly, I will also discontinue all future purchases from your company and its subsidiaries until your line of Citadel Finecast products matches, at the very least, the standards established by your plastic kits and the market.
I await your response and replacements, and remain,
Yours truly,
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX Encl.
as noted on page 1. It's been done before, and all it's done is provided some of the up-highs in GW with plenty of toilet paper and reduced the heating bills from all of the paper they had to burn...
Hivefleet Oblivion wrote: Now, even if you think that's a wrong move, you have to acknowledge they have a business strategy which goes beyond "keep shoving up prices" .
You make very valid points, however I disagree that this strategy goes beyond shoving up prices. In my mind, and perhaps I'm the only one that sees this, but both 40k and WH have been increasingly dependent upon large models or large units. In fantasy, it is the era of the horde, MSU strategy is all but dead, and so, in the rules themselves, players are encouraged to simply buy more models. They are sacrificing game-play for profit. Maybe that's what a company thinks it needs to do, but if they sacrifice much more they will further degrade their customer base. In 40k, monsters/large models are becoming almost necessary. You hardly see a Tau list without a riptide or an Eldar list without a Wraith knight. Yeah those are the flavors of the recent months, but thats my point. Perhaps you see the fact that they disguise their price hikes as a 'different' business strategy, but to me it is hardly better than simply shoving up prices.
Well, quite frankly, as a public company they SHOULD be concerned about profit before gameplay. Further, GW has made it pretty well known that they're not concerned with a super tight rule set like infinity or warmahordes. Gameplay, as they intend it, is massive narrative battles. So the "horde era" should come as no surprise. And honestly, For your argument to hold true, one of the most competitive armies in 40k wouldn't also be one of the cheapest to assemble.
Honesty, all the talk Of "degrading the customer" is nonsense. They don't degrade anyone. They don't "mistreat" anyone. Like Az said, it's perfectly viable if you don't find their products to be a good value for you, but that doesn't mean you've been mistreated or abused, so quit waxing hyperbolic and acting like you are.
I think people confuse abuse with neglect. GW cares about their core demographic, the 12-16 year old males. Everything else they view as bonus sales, despite if those numbers might be higher or lower.
I do feel that GW writes rules to sell the models, and GW designers even admitted as much. The model is made before the rules. Even that is fine to an extent. I just feel that GW's method of releasing such things is poorly thought out.
You know what would have done well? Death from the Skies released with a single flier release for each army all at once. It would have been easy to balance, and gives EVERY 40k customer something to buy. Instead they do these random waves of models and then rules to go with them that are crazy OP so that you feel compelled to buy the model, and all that does is unbalance the game.
I do feel that GW could learn a thing from other companies in that respect. But if rules are only a marketing device, why do GW rules and books cost so damn much? At this point it costs an extra 50% to "start" an army by getting a battalion set. That used to be 20%.
GW is not perfect, but they are far from being so bad that I refuse their products and games.
1. Stop buying GW product yourself. Pretty self explanatory
2. Take up a NEW wargame and introduce it to your local gaming group. If you can convince them to take up the game, it's like way #1, except now you've got more people on board.
Best advice of the thread. Stop buying, and do your best to get other people to join you with an alternative game. This may require taking ownership of your hobby and getting two forces to demo, putting on participation games and a variety of other effort that some will find not what they want for their hobby time. But it will create change.
1. Stop buying GW product yourself. Pretty self explanatory
2. Take up a NEW wargame and introduce it to your local gaming group. If you can convince them to take up the game, it's like way #1, except now you've got more people on board.
Best advice of the thread. Stop buying, and do your best to get other people to join you with an alternative game. This may require taking ownership of your hobby and getting two forces to demo, putting on participation games and a variety of other effort that some will find not what they want for their hobby time. But it will create change.
Well this is what is actually happening in my region. People are shifting from 40K to other games.
And honestly, if you're in college you should only be concerned about the three Bs:
Books, beers, and boobs. Probably in that order.
Thanks for the new sig line!!
I wrote a letter to GW just after the last DA book came out about how disgusted I was with all the errors. Never got a paper responce. I only got a responce via email. I wish you luck and encourage you to send it.
1. Stop buying GW product yourself. Pretty self explanatory
2. Take up a NEW wargame and introduce it to your local gaming group. If you can convince them to take up the game, it's like way #1, except now you've got more people on board.
Best advice of the thread. Stop buying, and do your best to get other people to join you with an alternative game. This may require taking ownership of your hobby and getting two forces to demo, putting on participation games and a variety of other effort that some will find not what they want for their hobby time. But it will create change.
Where do you play instead though? From my perspective I've always seen more GW shops than wargaming shops of any kind put together. I'd hate for them all to go bust.
I think the problem is people seem to think that breaking even, or slightly more, for a company is okay. It is not. GW are underperforming against average public companies, and when they try to make up for this through price increases somehow it's seen as a way to grub for money.
I think their RoE is something like 3-5% per share last time I checked, when it's trivial for me to go to a company on the market and get 10% returns at least.
Also, people saying other games are cheaper: Really? Infinity is hell expensive to even acquire every model in an army, and there is so much minor customisation that would require buying entirely new models to accomplish. Warmachine is pretty expensive. At least W40k's prevalence, even as an Aussie, I can pick up something like a box of termies for $30 delivered with all their options. Cryx warjacks go for roughly $20+ each, with the majority being $30-40. If I don't like a particular warjack for a strat then I have to pick up an entirely new one, whereas with Termies I could fiddle around with the options on each unit.
For Infinity, TAGs go for at least $50 and heavy infantry go for $10. Sure your army may only have 10 units, but that's going to come out to at least $300, and Infinity has barely anyway options available for units, so you'll end up deciding you want a different TAG, not to mention the prevalence of W40k also means that buying them 2nd hand is incredibly easy and cheap.
Even Kings of War which can go as low as $2-3 for units like Orcs can still be as much as Crons in a box of 12 with 3 scarabs at $25-30 ($3 or less each) depending where you are.
Yes, the tools are expensive but comeon, they have to design those with a limited marketbase in mind. Designing a pin vise on its own at least gives it general market coverage for jeweler's and the likes. Even if they sold those tools at a loss they still need to at least sell some kind of tools in store and have everything available a potential hobbyist needs.
You've really hit the truth of it there. Lowering prices at this point means there would be a delayed reaction from the market before there would be an increase in volume, assuming that the volume would rise to match and that the ceiling price has already been surpassed. I really don't think GW could get away with it in terms of liquidity.
Their 2012-2013 results should be out in the next month or two as well which will at least give a better insight into what's happened since their perceived market value tanked in the GFC with their share price.
tl;dr I'll collect what I enjoy. I enjoy W40k and Infinity rules very much, and may be going into warmahordes in the future. As for pricing GW can be incredibly cheap on a per-model basis, but the game sizes usually mean you need to buy a lot of them but this gives a lot more customisation even between armies that would feature the same units.
Where do you play instead though? From my perspective I've always seen more GW shops than wargaming shops of any kind put together. I'd hate for them all to go bust.
The current trend for GW shops is to reduce or eliminate the amount of actual gaming that goes on in them. So soon enough, you'll effectively have them gone as places to play anyway. Better get writing letters!
I think the problem is people seem to think that breaking even, or slightly more, for a company is okay. It is not. GW are underperforming against average public companies, and when they try to make up for this through price increases somehow it's seen as a way to grub for money.
I think their RoE is something like 3-5% per share last time I checked, when it's trivial for me to go to a company on the market and get 10% returns at least.
Underperforming? They are easily outperforming the market. Compare them to the FTSE 100 and they outperform it by a factor of three or so! We've discussed this before, their P/E isn't particularly good, which might conceivably indicate some investors don't believe they're future-proof. But however you skin it, share performance is good, or even very good. I wish my bloody old Plc pension was doing half as well.
RfE of 3-5% is indeed lousy. But last time I looked, GW was at around 30%, outperforming the leisure sector. Last time I looked, the consumer goods sector was at about 2%, and recreational goods around 1 per cent.
Whatever the doom, gloom and negativity here, market sentiment is that GW are actually doing pretty well, debt is minimal and they're outperforming the leisure sector easily.
Shaozun wrote: Also, people saying other games are cheaper: Really? Infinity is hell expensive to even acquire every model in an army, and there is so much minor customisation that would require buying entirely new models to accomplish. Warmachine is pretty expensive. At least W40k's prevalence, even as an Aussie, I can pick up something like a box of termies for $30 delivered with all their options. Cryx warjacks go for roughly $20+ each, with the majority being $30-40. If I don't like a particular warjack for a strat then I have to pick up an entirely new one, whereas with Termies I could fiddle around with the options on each unit.
For Infinity, TAGs go for at least $50 and heavy infantry go for $10. Sure your army may only have 10 units, but that's going to come out to at least $300, and Infinity has barely anyway options available for units, so you'll end up deciding you want a different TAG, not to mention the prevalence of W40k also means that buying them 2nd hand is incredibly easy and cheap.
True, but the scale of the games is also a factor. The TAG in Infinity is half to two-thirds of an "evenings gaming" size force, a Warmachine unit box will make up about a quarter of a 35pt army. Models being cheaper or about the same on a per-model basis doesn't save me any money if I need to buy twice as many of them in a certain system, and the rules of WHF especially have changed to heavily reward more dudes on the table.
Me, I just don't give GW any money, or play their games. The opposite of love isn't hate, it's indifference.
Shaozun wrote: As for pricing GW can be incredibly cheap on a per-model basis, but the game sizes usually mean you need to buy a lot of them but this gives a lot more customisation even between armies that would feature the same units.
It not the customisation that the problem with GW. It the fact even with all the customisation, every game still feel the same, even battle rep read the same, I move, I shot, I assault, depaneding on army don't do one of above. Hell even the price wouldn't look so bad, if the models didn't just seem like the only reason to buy them is to roll more dice.
If I don't like a particular warjack for a strat then I have to pick up an entirely new one, whereas with Termies I could fiddle around with the options on each unit.
If you ever do get into warmachine down the track, you'll find that unless you take a really, REALLY cornercase list, you would need at most 2 of each heavy chassis, and maybe 1 or 2 of some lights (unless you are going the collect-the-whole-faction thing, which is a perfectly ok choice). This is because the heavy chassis (chassi?) are all very easy to magnetise and swap around as you need effectively giving you three jacks for the price of one.
1. Stop buying GW product yourself. Pretty self explanatory
2. Take up a NEW wargame and introduce it to your local gaming group. If you can convince them to take up the game, it's like way #1, except now you've got more people on board.
Best advice of the thread. Stop buying, and do your best to get other people to join you with an alternative game. This may require taking ownership of your hobby and getting two forces to demo, putting on participation games and a variety of other effort that some will find not what they want for their hobby time. But it will create change.
Well this is what is actually happening in my region. People are shifting from 40K to other games.
In my play group it is more from Fantasy to Kings of War.
My girlfriend is retooling her list right now, she bought a nice unit of Brock Riders....
OK, I wrote about this on my blog, where I convincingly destroyed any pathetic attempt to justify the prices of GW. I am posting a link to the blog here;
In advance, let me apologize to whoever on this forum finds it offensive that I post a blog link. It seems easier than retyping everything.
In summary, I expose the facts regarding 2 very similar hobbies. One I used to dump all my money into, and one I currently dump all my money into. I will always have a special enjoyment of minis gaming. I have decided to stick with GW games. But it is getting harder and harder to find anyone to play. People do not just leave, they leave with a vengeance. GW is alienating people. I am no business person, and I am sure it all makes fiscal sense in a way. It seems like a bad idea from a purely gut instinct to me.
kenofyork wrote: OK, I wrote about this on my blog, where I convincingly destroyed any pathetic attempt to justify the prices of GW. I am posting a link to the blog here;
In advance, let me apologize to whoever on this forum finds it offensive that I post a blog link. It seems easier than retyping everything.
In summary, I expose the facts regarding 2 very similar hobbies. One I used to dump all my money into, and one I currently dump all my money into. I will always have a special enjoyment of minis gaming. I have decided to stick with GW games. But it is getting harder and harder to find anyone to play. People do not just leave, they leave with a vengeance. GW is alienating people. I am no business person, and I am sure it all makes fiscal sense in a way. It seems like a bad idea from a purely gut instinct to me.
great blog. I really love that post about how I can't see anything posted on it and that i need to log out of my account. Very compelling.
kenofyork wrote: . I am no business person, and I am sure it all makes fiscal sense in a way. It seems like a bad idea from a purely gut instinct to me.
Thanks for letting me know I have no reason to read your blog article.
In advance, let me apologize to whoever on this forum finds it offensive that I post a blog link. It seems easier than retyping everything.
Yes... I see your point, I mean it is not like we have a way to *Copy* and *Paste* text content easily. I mean we still have monks sitting in cloisters manually transcribing texts by hand. You had no other choice than linking your blog. Maybe you could have asked the secretary typing pool to re-type it for you...
Oh wait...
Don't waste the Forum's time by not participating in the thread and linking to some unreadable blog.
In advance, let me apologize to whoever on this forum finds it offensive that I post a blog link. It seems easier than retyping everything.
Yes... I see your point, I mean it is not like we have a way to *Copy* and *Paste* text content easily. I mean we still have monks sitting in cloisters manually transcribing texts by hand. You had no other choice than linking your blog. Maybe you could have asked the secretary typing pool to re-type it for you...
Oh wait...
Don't waste the Forum's time by not participating in the thread and linking to some unreadable blog.
This. Copy paste it into the thread, because the site won't let me read it.
Try that link instead. Ken of York of Proxie Models has been poking away at plastic injection molding in his garage (or rather barn) for several years now. His blog is worth reading, and while not a "business man" his observations are rather valid because it isnt like he is completely unaware of what goes into making a plastic model from start to finish.
Always nice to see the welcome mat rolled up so quickly though.
Slot cars can do all that? The only ones I've ever used were from when I was about 8 and we had a piece of plastic with a trigger to make the car accelerate.
Nicely written and all that too, but seriously, the cars/track can do all that?
Thank you Sean for correcting my link.. I was logged in as the blog owner when I copy/pasted. I always seem to make some sort of error when posting on Dakka. Which might be why I tend to read more and post less. This place is quite demanding.
Here's the full text for anyone that doesn't want to follow the link.
Spoiler:
Hello again folks, been pretty busy and there is a lot going on behind the scenes. Still making odds and ends, like this for the guys over at Rust Forge- http://rustforge.com/
I been slowly sliding in to a more manufacturing role and less a retailer, but I still am planning big as always. I added a 120mm base to the store. It was requested and was too big for the press. Had to add a precision 2x4 block to hold it closed.
I know my friend Chris is laughing, but it worked.
The sci-fi girls were ruined and so I had to remake the first half of the mold. When you run a lot of programs it is easy to over look a small mistake. I powered the cnc bit straight down through the cavity and ruined one of the gun arms. Oh well, be more observant. Back on track and designing the next one. No promises but I would like to be done soon.
What brings me on to my soapbox today is the culmination of some talks had recently with people and a few forums where people were talking about price increases over at the big monster, GW. It is somewhat counter intuitive for me to think that the company with the lowest cost per unit to make has the highest price per unit. If I were GW I would use my massive ability to produce products to lower prices and wipe out all the little guys. ( see Walmart) However, they have chosen to raise prices and thereby enable little guys to exist. Quite nice of them, one has to admit.
What follows I have stated a few times, so apologies if this post seems a re-post.
It seems that the cost is justified by the abilities of the model in the game. It ignores the fact that those abilities are the result of my own imagination, not value added by the company. I can choose to pretend the models are whatever I want and have whatever abilities I can think of. Which brings me to the comparison of my 2 main hobbies at the moment- slot cars and wargaming.
I started collecting High Elves in 1988, and have a gazillion. The painted ones shown in the battle report are a sample of what I still have to paint. I could see myself buying every high elf made till death overtakes me in some far distant era. (hopefully) I even have an entire army of West Wind high elves as well. Why? Because someday a stranger will approach me and challenge me to a 12,000 point battle with the requirement that all models be painted. And I must be ready to look that stranger in the eye and say, " Sure, grab your dice."
So that makes me a prime candidate for this new product from GW-
Ok, I hope those maniacs do not sue me for using an image- all rights reserved, blah blah, they thought of everything, blah blah, they invented human conflict, blah blah, etc.
So why have I not purchased said item? Because it costs more than this-
Now the elves can shoot bows and stuff, but I sort of have to do all the work. The manufacturer made a nice model and all, but it is the players that bring it to life with assembly and painting. And then use the rules to play a game. I make that blob of plastic an army and bring it to life. And I really enjoy that.
What can that stupid car do? Well, it is ready to go right out of the box. It has electric motor, rubber tires, metal axles. Lots of parts to make for a manufacturer. It also has working headlights and tail lights. Which I can turn off and on from my controller. And the brake lights come on when I release the throttle to slow down and go out after I stop or go back on the throttle. It comes in a nice display case with extra parts right along with it. And it has a computer in it.
Yes a computer. With that computer it is programmed to an individual controller with the push of a button to allow 8 cars to operate on a single lane with out interference. Neat? There are numerous crossing points that allow you to pass and block other drivers. My track is 2, 3 and 4 lanes wide in places.
Also, the computer reverses the motor polarity when the throttle is released and uses the electric motor to provide resistance and therefore brakes. And I can adjust the amount of braking. In 15 different increments to give me the amount of stopping I want.
I can also adjust the amount of power, if one car seems "bogus". A click of a button and instant balance. No more waiting 10 years for a codex. 15 different increments too.
And it also has a variable fuel capacity. What? Yes that's right, it keeps track of how much electricity I have been using and subtracts it from the fuel reserves of the car. But what do you have to do, gas it up? Yes, there is a section of track where you have to pull over and using your controller add fuel.
Ok, but what happens then. Well, the computer adjusts the power and braking of the car based on the weight of the fuel it is carrying. The car runs best when it is almost out of gas and is a little sluggish filled up.
Sounds strange so far, but what else?
With a click the car can be set to drive by itself, in case I got no one to race against. I can put 7 cars on the track and race against all of them if I want. This sucks because they keep wrecking in to each other, but it can be done.
The track has a USB connector that attaches to a PC. It manages all the cars and drivers and keeps a record of each lap ran, fastest, etc. It also can provide random events, like brake failure. This requires unscheduled pit stops. If your car loses brakes, the computer announces this over the speakers and will reduce your braking to nothing. I won a race against my daughters last night by refusing to stop and running the last few laps with no brakes.
Yes, I said it announces. It comes with a full spectrum of sounds to fill your ears with updates on who is winning, laps to go etc. Of course I edited this.
OK, I love me some high elves and wargaming. But I can not figure out how a couple of those sprues cost more than that 289 Cobra. The features on the car are all tangible items of value improvement. The elves got a decent initiative and good leadership. I know they have always strikes first, or at least they used to. And they have a BS of 4 or maybe 5. Been a while since I could afford a new codex. All of these are intangibles added inside my own head by reading the rules. It is hard to understand how the actual engineering put in to that beautiful car equals the value of a rule. A rule does not make a model more expensive to produce. This fact is where I get sideways and have that head exploding moment.
It has been a while since my finite disposable hobby income has been allocated to wargaming instead of race cars. I could not resist the Reaper kickstarter and really looking forward to some old fashioned dungeon mosh pits. Since then, nothing really for gaming but a couple new cars.
And that is my take on the whole endless argument on the Internet about the cost of GW products.
One final point. Wargaming is a niche market. But slot cars are a much smaller niche. I went to a slot car show in Maryland and it filled 2 smallish rooms in a hotel and was open from 10-2 on Sunday. I went to Cold Wars and it filled an entire convention center and lasted all weekend.
To summarize- I ain't buying no more high elves at these prices. So when that stranger does come looking for me, I will have to forfeit that battle.
Till then, going to keep painting and rolling dice as well as rubbing fenders on the track. Both are really great hobbies and a ton of fun. It is a good time to have such wonderful pastimes, and we are very lucky.
This post will vanish if I get a letter from one of the companies whose products are depicted. If that happens, which company do you think it will be? I know Carrera is an extraordinarily nice company to deal with. GW calls me a "bearded git". (Actual quote a store owner told me from a GW sales seminar. It was used to explain the type of customer to get out of your store ASAP. )
I got some more widgets to do and the other half of the mold to do. Still the progress keeps grinding forward and good things are happening. Have a great week and keep your fingers crossed I do not screw up again. And buy some widgets from rust forge- he never calls me a git.
EDIT- The price listed is not entirely accurate. It is possible to easily find the car shown at $42-48 online and my local shop sells the car for that price too. My local game store sells the minis at full retail. However, if you compare full retail to full retail the minis are a few bucks cheaper. $54-50. Not sure if that makes a difference, but wanted to give the most accurate numbers. To be honest I rarely pay full retail for anything anymore but was comparing the prices at my local shops.
Hello again folks, been pretty busy and there is a lot going on behind the scenes. Still making odds and ends, like this for the guys over at Rust Forge- http://rustforge.com/
I been slowly sliding in to a more manufacturing role and less a retailer, but I still am planning big as always. I added a 120mm base to the store. It was requested and was too big for the press. Had to add a precision 2x4 block to hold it closed.
I know my friend Chris is laughing, but it worked.
The sci-fi girls were ruined and so I had to remake the first half of the mold. When you run a lot of programs it is easy to over look a small mistake. I powered the cnc bit straight down through the cavity and ruined one of the gun arms. Oh well, be more observant. Back on track and designing the next one. No promises but I would like to be done soon.
What brings me on to my soapbox today is the culmination of some talks had recently with people and a few forums where people were talking about price increases over at the big monster, GW. It is somewhat counter intuitive for me to think that the company with the lowest cost per unit to make has the highest price per unit. If I were GW I would use my massive ability to produce products to lower prices and wipe out all the little guys. ( see Walmart) However, they have chosen to raise prices and thereby enable little guys to exist. Quite nice of them, one has to admit.
What follows I have stated a few times, so apologies if this post seems a re-post.
It seems that the cost is justified by the abilities of the model in the game. It ignores the fact that those abilities are the result of my own imagination, not value added by the company. I can choose to pretend the models are whatever I want and have whatever abilities I can think of. Which brings me to the comparison of my 2 main hobbies at the moment- slot cars and wargaming.
I started collecting High Elves in 1988, and have a gazillion. The painted ones shown in the battle report are a sample of what I still have to paint. I could see myself buying every high elf made till death overtakes me in some far distant era. (hopefully) I even have an entire army of West Wind high elves as well. Why? Because someday a stranger will approach me and challenge me to a 12,000 point battle with the requirement that all models be painted. And I must be ready to look that stranger in the eye and say, " Sure, grab your dice."
So that makes me a prime candidate for this new product from GW-
Ok, I hope those maniacs do not sue me for using an image- all rights reserved, blah blah, they thought of everything, blah blah, they invented human conflict, blah blah, etc.
So why have I not purchased said item? Because it costs more than this-
Now the elves can shoot bows and stuff, but I sort of have to do all the work. The manufacturer made a nice model and all, but it is the players that bring it to life with assembly and painting. And then use the rules to play a game. I make that blob of plastic an army and bring it to life. And I really enjoy that.
What can that stupid car do? Well, it is ready to go right out of the box. It has electric motor, rubber tires, metal axles. Lots of parts to make for a manufacturer. It also has working headlights and tail lights. Which I can turn off and on from my controller. And the brake lights come on when I release the throttle to slow down and go out after I stop or go back on the throttle. It comes in a nice display case with extra parts right along with it. And it has a computer in it.
Yes a computer. With that computer it is programmed to an individual controller with the push of a button to allow 8 cars to operate on a single lane with out interference. Neat? There are numerous crossing points that allow you to pass and block other drivers. My track is 2, 3 and 4 lanes wide in places.
Also, the computer reverses the motor polarity when the throttle is released and uses the electric motor to provide resistance and therefore brakes. And I can adjust the amount of braking. In 15 different increments to give me the amount of stopping I want.
I can also adjust the amount of power, if one car seems "bogus". A click of a button and instant balance. No more waiting 10 years for a codex. 15 different increments too.
And it also has a variable fuel capacity. What? Yes that's right, it keeps track of how much electricity I have been using and subtracts it from the fuel reserves of the car. But what do you have to do, gas it up? Yes, there is a section of track where you have to pull over and using your controller add fuel.
Ok, but what happens then. Well, the computer adjusts the power and braking of the car based on the weight of the fuel it is carrying. The car runs best when it is almost out of gas and is a little sluggish filled up.
Sounds strange so far, but what else?
With a click the car can be set to drive by itself, in case I got no one to race against. I can put 7 cars on the track and race against all of them if I want. This sucks because they keep wrecking in to each other, but it can be done.
The track has a USB connector that attaches to a PC. It manages all the cars and drivers and keeps a record of each lap ran, fastest, etc. It also can provide random events, like brake failure. This requires unscheduled pit stops. If your car loses brakes, the computer announces this over the speakers and will reduce your braking to nothing. I won a race against my daughters last night by refusing to stop and running the last few laps with no brakes.
Yes, I said it announces. It comes with a full spectrum of sounds to fill your ears with updates on who is winning, laps to go etc. Of course I edited this.
OK, I love me some high elves and wargaming. But I can not figure out how a couple of those sprues cost more than that 289 Cobra. The features on the car are all tangible items of value improvement. The elves got a decent initiative and good leadership. I know they have always strikes first, or at least they used to. And they have a BS of 4 or maybe 5. Been a while since I could afford a new codex. All of these are intangibles added inside my own head by reading the rules. It is hard to understand how the actual engineering put in to that beautiful car equals the value of a rule. A rule does not make a model more expensive to produce. This fact is where I get sideways and have that head exploding moment.
It has been a while since my finite disposable hobby income has been allocated to wargaming instead of race cars. I could not resist the Reaper kickstarter and really looking forward to some old fashioned dungeon mosh pits. Since then, nothing really for gaming but a couple new cars.
And that is my take on the whole endless argument on the Internet about the cost of GW products.
One final point. Wargaming is a niche market. But slot cars are a much smaller niche. I went to a slot car show in Maryland and it filled 2 smallish rooms in a hotel and was open from 10-2 on Sunday. I went to Cold Wars and it filled an entire convention center and lasted all weekend.
To summarize- I ain't buying no more high elves at these prices. So when that stranger does come looking for me, I will have to forfeit that battle.
Till then, going to keep painting and rolling dice as well as rubbing fenders on the track. Both are really great hobbies and a ton of fun. It is a good time to have such wonderful pastimes, and we are very lucky.
This post will vanish if I get a letter from one of the companies whose products are depicted. If that happens, which company do you think it will be? I know Carrera is an extraordinarily nice company to deal with. GW calls me a "bearded git". (Actual quote a store owner told me from a GW sales seminar. It was used to explain the type of customer to get out of your store ASAP. )
I got some more widgets to do and the other half of the mold to do. Still the progress keeps grinding forward and good things are happening. Have a great week and keep your fingers crossed I do not screw up again. And buy some widgets from rust forge- he never calls me a git.
EDIT- The price listed is not entirely accurate. It is possible to easily find the car shown at $42-48 online and my local shop sells the car for that price too. My local game store sells the minis at full retail. However, if you compare full retail to full retail the minis are a few bucks cheaper. $54-50. Not sure if that makes a difference, but wanted to give the most accurate numbers. To be honest I rarely pay full retail for anything anymore but was comparing the prices at my local shops.
kenofyork wrote: Thank you Sean for correcting my link.. I was logged in as the blog owner when I copy/pasted. I always seem to make some sort of error when posting on Dakka. Which might be why I tend to read more and post less. This place is quite demanding.
Yes, wanting to read your post in the thread you posted in instead of having to reverse engineer a broken link to a blog is "demanding".
Next time just post in the thread like a forum poster and people might respond to what you wrote.
Digital slot cars can do all of that. There is a split between old school analog racers and the new digital racers. Digital is catching on more and more.
The point seems to have been lost in this thread because of my error in posting. It was meant to initiate thinking about the relative cost of production of 2 similar hobby products and the retail price. 2 different companies making a bid for our free time and money. 2 different ways of selling value, and 2 different ways of perceiving value. For me, it has become impossible to justify the cost, although I will always play Warhammer and sometimes 40K. I will not buy anything new until the price becomes sane. I actually sold about $5000 worth of painted armies and used some of the money to buy my slot car collection.
Good luck with your letter, at least it will make you feel like you have done something.
kenofyork wrote: Digital slot cars can do all of that. There is a split between old school analog racers and the new digital racers. Digital is catching on more and more.
The point seems to have been lost in this thread because of my error in posting.
Well... apples and oranges.
The 'computer chip" is a simple IC that is common across all the car models. It's the big improvement they've had in slot cars in the last two decades, but a simple chip common to all the cars isn't that big a deal.
Secondly, that little plastic model has relatively few parts. It's made in China, if it's Scalextric. And Scalextric ain't cheap by any means.
Thirdly, Hornby are (sadly) doing really badly, just announced a profit warning IIRC.
There are several other points - like your one about having to paint the model yourself - that are again completely irrelevant. Surely that's the point?
Finally, in the context of a Letter To Games Workshop, your post couldn't be more irrelevant. The letter is about GW doing a better job and, presumably, being more successfil as a company. You have picked, as an example to emulate, a company that have cheapened production by moving it all to China, have falling sales, and whose stock market performance is hugely inferior to GW.
In short, you've made GW look really successful. Nice one!
kenofyork wrote: . I am no business person, and I am sure it all makes fiscal sense in a way. It seems like a bad idea from a purely gut instinct to me.
Thanks for letting me know I have no reason to read your blog article.
The snark knight returns! Can you type anything without looking down your nose at someone? The frankly stupid red herring of "You're only allowed to criticize something if you have vast experience in said area" is becoming old and tiresome.
The little plastic car has more parts than you think. More than the elves. It is made by Carrera, a German company. Last I heard GW has been trying to lower costs as well, including shipping production around. The OP was wanting GW to do a better job as a company, and the comparison is valid to another hobby company. Carrera is doing a fantastic job as a hobby company, perhaps not as much as a profit generating machine. I found the comparison valid. It is surprising that after reading the post the conclusion you reached is that GW is the successful party. GW is still doing well because the long term impact of alienating hard core hobbyists has not been felt. There is also the intangible of the sheer number of people who simply hate the company. Most of these were avid gamers and customers. I introduced my nephew to GW and the LOTR line. He is 13 now and is complaining that the boxes only have half the models they used to have. He is 13 and already is getting angry.
kenofyork wrote: . I am no business person, and I am sure it all makes fiscal sense in a way. It seems like a bad idea from a purely gut instinct to me.
Thanks for letting me know I have no reason to read your blog article.
The snark knight returns! Can you type anything without looking down your nose at someone? The frankly stupid red herring of "You're only allowed to criticize something if you have vast experience in said area" is becoming old and tiresome.
The snark knight?
I find it amusing that one of the rudest people on the board acts so offended so often, if you can't take it, don't dish it out.
Frankly, its an entirely valid point. If the plumber told you what was wrong with your drainage but your nurse wife disagreed, who would you most likely listen to?
Of course you are always entitled to your opinion, but you cant honestly expect people to take you seriously, otherwise why would anyone bother asking anyone for advice about anything?!
kenofyork wrote: . I am no business person, and I am sure it all makes fiscal sense in a way. It seems like a bad idea from a purely gut instinct to me.
Thanks for letting me know I have no reason to read your blog article.
The snark knight returns! Can you type anything without looking down your nose at someone? The frankly stupid red herring of "You're only allowed to criticize something if you have vast experience in said area" is becoming old and tiresome.
The snark knight?
I find it amusing that one of the rudest people on the board acts so offended so often, if you can't take it, don't dish it out.
Frankly, its an entirely valid point. If the plumber told you what was wrong with your drainage but your nurse wife disagreed, who would you most likely listen to?
Of course you are always entitled to your opinion, but you cant honestly expect people to take you seriously, otherwise why would anyone bother asking anyone for advice about anything?!
Grimtuff has a point though, most of cincydooleys posts consist of putting people down, and rarely contribute in any meaningful way.
Shaozun wrote: Also, people saying other games are cheaper: Really? Infinity is hell expensive to even acquire every model in an army, and there is so much minor customisation that would require buying entirely new models to accomplish. Warmachine is pretty expensive. At least W40k's prevalence, even as an Aussie, I can pick up something like a box of termies for $30 delivered with all their options. Cryx warjacks go for roughly $20+ each, with the majority being $30-40. If I don't like a particular warjack for a strat then I have to pick up an entirely new one, whereas with Termies I could fiddle around with the options on each unit.
Where are you buying terminator models for 30 dollars with all of their options? And ALL of the heavy jacks and beasts in Warmachine come in a kit of their chassis and all the arms, heads, weapons and cards for the models that the chassis could be built as. All of my plastic jacks and beasts have been magnetized because I'm a cheap fether and I wanted to get 4 beasts out of 1 jack kit.. Granted I can't have multiples of that unit, but that's okay. I own enough Khador and Trollbloods stuff that it doesn't matter.
The little plastic car has more parts than you think. More than the elves. It is made by Carrera, a German company. Last I heard GW has been trying to lower costs as well, including shipping production around.
Carrera are a good company. We have a couple of their cars, and while they're not the changeable lanes versions, they're hardly way more complicated than a box of figures. But despite the fact they're a German company, the cars are indeed made in China. They cost £29.99. A pack of High Elves spearmen cost £20.
And sorry if this sounds personal, but when it comes to slagging off GW, there are always phrases like "Last I hear GW had been trying to lower costs as well, including shipping production around. " What does that mean? Is that supposed to be evidence?
GW still produce their plastics in the UK, the link I cited earlier demonstrates on firsthand evidence that they are recruiting new design staff and buying new presses etc. So, while i by no means suggest that GW are altruists, much of the hearsay used to slag them off here is just that, it's self-selecting and meaningless.
Grimtuff has a point though, most of cincydooleys posts consist of putting people down, and rarely contribute in any meaningful way.
I'm sarcastic a ton, but that simply isn't true. I've contributed in "meaningful" ways a number of times in this thread. I can't help if if you chose to disregard all of those.
Grimtuff has a point though, most of cincydooleys posts consist of putting people down, and rarely contribute in any meaningful way.
I'm sarcastic a ton, but that simply isn't true. I've contributed in "meaningful" ways a number of times in this thread. I can't help if if you chose to disregard all of those.
The word was rarely
The way you jumped on a relatively new poster(46 posts), because of a posting mishap. Was uncalled for.
My two cents on this.
I think the first problem is that GW has gotten TOO Big. I work in a toystore and we have to work with less people in the store because the more staff the more people to pay salaries to.
GW makes great miniatures and modelkits, but this are products only interesting for a selected group of people ergo wargamers and model builders/miniature painters.
I know making models is expensive and unlike the companies that make model planes for example you cant just buy molds from other companies because you are dealing with models designed primarly for the games you sell.
I have build a lot of airplanes before I got into miniatures I know companies that use the same molds but one uses slightly cheaper plastics and sells the same model slightly cheaper.
The biggest differance here is the decals for the plane and the cheaper ones require a bit more work. No biggie. GW cant realy do this because than you become just another plastic soldier company.
I have No doubt that they know this. They know that other companies produce quality games and miniatures and that the competition has only increased and now 3d printing is rising up towards the hobby.
They are a company originaly founded by geeks for geeks Sure they had humor and hart in their old days. But the bigger market made then more fearfull of losing thier position.
Some of thier founding members left and started Blizzard software (The whole Blizzard ripping of GW and vice versa is pointless they where started by the same people. I am also certain I saw they name of an ex-GW guy in the Borderlands 2 credits and that was by Gearbox.)
They have to make a profit to support themselfs of course but they need to make so much money because they became so big they just follow the whole get the money as fast as we can because we need to make money we are a bussiness.
The people making the decisions are no longer the geeks but are now grown business men. Which is fine but they got a company that costs a lot of money to maintain and probably would do better if they looked around a bit more than just like us geek sticking to our old ways. Geeks make bad bussiness men most of the time. And they are a big business in a market which is not quite fitting the big business profiles.
The other part is the Internet
I have spent a great deal on the internet and 4chan's /tg/ and allot the pro and anti GW remind me all to much of the console wars a couple of years back only with less racial slur.
People a lot of times really just need something to bitch about and since the internet provides the safety of the keyboard and screen they don't feel the need to hold back and will offen let thier emotions take the better over reason.
I think it is a good idea that you sent those letters even if I fear they will probably be ignored. If one person reads it and stops to think about issues it word it.
Grimtuff has a point though, most of cincydooleys posts consist of putting people down, and rarely contribute in any meaningful way.
I'm sarcastic a ton, but that simply isn't true. I've contributed in "meaningful" ways a number of times in this thread. I can't help if if you chose to disregard all of those.
The word was rarely
The way you jumped on a relatively new poster(46 posts), because of a posting mishap. Was uncalled for.
I'm sorry. That "relatively new poster" maintains a blog and a web store. He can figure out how to copy/paste the full text of an article into a forum. It really isn't hard.
And again, your use of rarely is misplaced. I won't deny that I can be sarcastic and condescending (which has gotten me justifyably suspended) but most of my posts have plenty of content to them.
@korbenn - a lot of good points. I think GW catches a lot of flak because of the demographic they cater to. There's a lot of expectation in the demo (for good or bad) and that demo expects to, effectively, "be a part" of the business. You see a ton of ownership in any geek related hobby, which is often a great thing for the number of very small, private entities that exist within it. But therein also lies the problem: GW isn't really like any of those other entities because A: they're significantly larger, and B: they're a public company. Despite what we'd all prefer, the GW management team is beholden to their shareholders first and foremost and to us, as a customer base, second.
It's that reason why we see a lot of discord between what we, as that customer base, understand to be "good" decisions. Decisions that are good for us aren't always the right business decision to show those big black numbers to the shareholders. While most people here seem to understand that fact, far fewer are willing to accept that fact.
The main issue is that the demographic that thinks GW is catering to them is actually wrong and the demographic GW is actually catering to is a completely different one.
So many people get exasperated with GW doing things that make no sense given what they think GW's target market is. The issue though, is that they've got GW's target market wrong.
If anyone feels GW is letting them down, it's likely because GW has fired them as a customer and now considers their purchases entirely as bonus revenue from outside their target market. If GW isn't doing anything to cater to the desires of a particular group, it's probably because GW doesn't think they are worth the effort and expense.
Write letters all you want, but in doing so you are simply proving that you are not who GW cares about selling product to. They'll take your money if you're willing to keep buying long after they've expected you to quit, but they're not going to do a damn thing to address your grievances.
Even if the letter you write gets passed up to board of directors and they read it, they'll probably just pat themselves on the back for creating such passionate customers that they care well past being in the original target age group GW is going after. They must be doing something right if adults are still sticking around long enough to get annoyed at the actions of a toy company.
GW would be hard pressed to find teenagers who plop down $500 a year consistently. Many of those kids are one time players who drop out after a year or two. Meanwhile, veterans like myself spend that amount year after year on product, but don't get the support we feel we should.
How does it make sense to market to kids who require their parents to spend money instead of marketing to me and people like me who have thousands(not trying to brag) of dollars a year for their entertainment and hobby funds?
I'm not trying to toot my own horn, but when a single customer has the potential to offset 3 or 4 others, wouldn't you want to focus on making the sure thing veteran happy instead of trying to "sell" new kids on it? I already buy their product, they should focus on getting MORE of my money instead of hedging their bets on convincing new players to start(given who those new players are).
Aerethan wrote: GW would be hard pressed to find teenagers who plop down $500 a year consistently. Many of those kids are one time players who drop out after a year or two. Meanwhile, veterans like myself spend that amount year after year on product, but don't get the support we feel we should.
How does it make sense to market to kids who require their parents to spend money instead of marketing to me and people like me who have thousands(not trying to brag) of dollars a year for their entertainment and hobby funds?
I'm not trying to toot my own horn, but when a single customer has the potential to offset 3 or 4 others, wouldn't you want to focus on making the sure thing veteran happy instead of trying to "sell" new kids on it? I already buy their product, they should focus on getting MORE of my money instead of hedging their bets on convincing new players to start(given who those new players are).
Teenagers have parents, grannies, aunties, and birthday parties every year. By the time they're 13 or 14 - when they're in GW - they are getting considerable amounts of cash for presents. You don't need many relatives spending $30 a pop to get you to $400 a year, and the parents will normally make up the extra $100 in paint and one-offs to bank GW $500 per year. And it normally takes parents a year to wise up and start buying online so GW are getting all the cake. It's a real peer-group thing, I reckon 50% of them at least continue for a couple of years. remember, there are a lot of kids out there. Out of my nipper's 60-strong school year, there are around 35 boys, one plays nids, one SM, one IG, one CSM, and all have been collecting (with a break for 6E) for well over two years.
Let's round the percentage of players down from 11 to 6 per cent, reduce the typical spend to £160 a year, factor in the population of around 1.5m boys aged 11-13, and you get revenues of £14m a year. That's probably 90% of GW's UK revenues. Could be more - a sample size of 60 isn't that small, and it's from a mixed London demographic.
Aerethan wrote: GW would be hard pressed to find teenagers who plop down $500 a year consistently. Many of those kids are one time players who drop out after a year or two. Meanwhile, veterans like myself spend that amount year after year on product, but don't get the support we feel we should.
How does it make sense to market to kids who require their parents to spend money instead of marketing to me and people like me who have thousands(not trying to brag) of dollars a year for their entertainment and hobby funds?
I'm not trying to toot my own horn, but when a single customer has the potential to offset 3 or 4 others, wouldn't you want to focus on making the sure thing veteran happy instead of trying to "sell" new kids on it? I already buy their product, they should focus on getting MORE of my money instead of hedging their bets on convincing new players to start(given who those new players are).
Simply put, 15 teenagers getting the DV boxed set as a gift every year is valuable than the $500 you spend by yourself.
And they're less maintenance.
Sadly, in business and bottom lines, sometimes it's about quantity and not quality.
Aerethan wrote: GW would be hard pressed to find teenagers who plop down $500 a year consistently. Many of those kids are one time players who drop out after a year or two. Meanwhile, veterans like myself spend that amount year after year on product, but don't get the support we feel we should.
How does it make sense to market to kids who require their parents to spend money instead of marketing to me and people like me who have thousands(not trying to brag) of dollars a year for their entertainment and hobby funds?
I'm not trying to toot my own horn, but when a single customer has the potential to offset 3 or 4 others, wouldn't you want to focus on making the sure thing veteran happy instead of trying to "sell" new kids on it? I already buy their product, they should focus on getting MORE of my money instead of hedging their bets on convincing new players to start(given who those new players are).
Simply put, 15 teenagers getting the DV boxed set as a gift every year is valuable than the $500 you spend by yourself.
And they're less maintenance.
Sadly, in business and bottom lines, sometimes it's about quantity and not quality.
Especially for public ones.
But to neglect such a significant potential market is just pants on head time again. Even estimating the veteran market at what I would consider a very modest 10% of their overall income (remember any income from Forge World is, I would assume, almost entirely going to be derived from veterans) that's a very significant number.
Factor in that GW, via the CHS case, are on public record, under oath (I assume?) as relying on word of mouth from their customers via forums such as this (and the lions share of regular posters seem to have left their teens behind some time ago) one has to ask what the hell they're thinking?
I don't disagree that Vets are not their main focus, but to act like they're not important at all? It just defies any analysis I can conduct with the information, knowledge and experience I have to hand.
cincydooley wrote: Oh, I didn't say it wasn't important. But it's a lot easier to get 20 people to spend $50 than one person to spend $1000.
KS shows this dynamic pretty well.
Lets look at two $250K grossing campaigns
Dungeon roll pulled it in with over 10,000 backers at a $15 price point.
Heroes of Normandie pulled it in with just under 1000 backers at a $150 price point.
Now lets say they both come out with a $10 expansion. If you retain half or your customers, the second purchases look like this:
Dungeon Roll = $50,000 from the expansion
Heroes of Normandie = $5000 from the expansion
That's the difference.
And like I said, never underestimate the value of a low maintenance customer, of which we are not.
None of that takes into account that GWs model is predicated on keeping their vets happy because we are (allegedly) their chief method of advertising. If Vets are high maintenance, then GW have, at some point, decided that this cost is worth tolerating in order to derive the benefits from having them around.
Subsequent to making that decision, they have, almost wilfully if you want to pop your tinfoil hat on, neglected that part of their market.
If it emerges, in years to come, that there has been a rift in GW senior management for the last few years in regard to how best to move forward, I wouldn't be surprised, as it almost seems like there are two separate, opposed agendas in operation here.
cincydooley wrote: Oh, I didn't say it wasn't important. But it's a lot easier to get 20 people to spend $50 than one person to spend $1000.
KS shows this dynamic pretty well.
Lets look at two $250K grossing campaigns
Dungeon roll pulled it in with over 10,000 backers at a $15 price point.
Heroes of Normandie pulled it in with just under 1000 backers at a $150 price point.
Now lets say they both come out with a $10 expansion. If you retain half or your customers, the second purchases look like this:
Dungeon Roll = $50,000 from the expansion
Heroes of Normandie = $5000 from the expansion
That's the difference.
And like I said, never underestimate the value of a low maintenance customer, of which we are not.
And that math is well and fine(and makes complete sense) but I'd argue that GW doesn't retain 50% of the kids that start up one of their games. Maybe they do, but I've forgotten more faces than I remember ever playing locally.
Also in your argument you looked at 2 VERY different products and markets. GW doesn't have much in the $15 market that is useful towards a full game. Pretty much characters and single models only. So that is fine if Inquisitor 28mm is taking off.
But GW's standard army cost is $400-650USD. That puts them in a very different market than say MTG whose main products are under $5ea. Of course it's easy to sell a lot of cheap things, but GW is far from cheap in every aspect. Their core demographic has VERY limited and inconsistent funds to spend. There are well more than enough older working geeks like myself out there with money to spend, and GW just doesn't do that good of a job getting it from us.
Aerethan wrote: GW would be hard pressed to find teenagers who plop down $500 a year consistently. Many of those kids are one time players who drop out after a year or two. Meanwhile, veterans like myself spend that amount year after year on product, but don't get the support we feel we should.
How does it make sense to market to kids who require their parents to spend money instead of marketing to me and people like me who have thousands(not trying to brag) of dollars a year for their entertainment and hobby funds?
I'm not trying to toot my own horn, but when a single customer has the potential to offset 3 or 4 others, wouldn't you want to focus on making the sure thing veteran happy instead of trying to "sell" new kids on it? I already buy their product, they should focus on getting MORE of my money instead of hedging their bets on convincing new players to start(given who those new players are).
Simply put, 15 teenagers getting the DV boxed set as a gift every year is valuable than the $500 you spend by yourself.
And they're less maintenance.
Sadly, in business and bottom lines, sometimes it's about quantity and not quality.
Especially for public ones.
But to neglect such a significant potential market is just pants on head time again. Even estimating the veteran market at what I would consider a very modest 10% of their overall income (remember any income from Forge World is, I would assume, almost entirely going to be derived from veterans) that's a very significant number.
Factor in that GW, via the CHS case, are on public record, under oath (I assume?) as relying on word of mouth from their customers via forums such as this (and the lions share of regular posters seem to have left their teens behind some time ago) one has to ask what the hell they're thinking?
I don't disagree that Vets are not their main focus, but to act like they're not important at all? It just defies any analysis I can conduct with the information, knowledge and experience I have to hand.
Exactly my point of view, I know I'm not GWs target customer anymore but just because I'm not it doesn't mean that GW have got their target market right. They should IMHO pitch a little higher than they are currently so as to have more appeal. If they really do rely on word of mouth then surely they must realise that the word on the street ain't good? Just cos my grannies and auntie don't spend £500 a year on my behalf I reckon I equal that myself on gamesday years as well as my girlfriend and friends getting me models for birthday and Xmas etc. I am not a business person but I always thought that ok a big slice of cake right now is really nice but what about a smaller slice every day for the next year? Which is better? What happens when the cake becomes too expensive and Mummy and Daddy won't buy Jonny any more? Well they'll be looking for the old men with the sweet tooth then but will there be any around when they go looking?
It certainly would be better for GW if they could figure out a way to both keep long term customers who spend year over year and also go after new customers as well. I don't necessarily agree that GW is being smart by going after new customers and hoping to get as much money as possible before they quit is a good approach-- certainly not in the long term.
But so what? This thread is about giving feedback to GW in the form of letters. And it's very likely that anyone who writes a letter expressing grievances is already demographically not GW's target market. You've already given GW way more money than GW ever expected out of you given that you stuck around into adulthood.
An angry letter from an adult to GW is just proof that their customer base is passionate enough to stick around well past the age GW expects. GW simply isn't interested in spending any additional time or money on your concerns given that they already got your money.
It doesn't matter that you or I may think this approach is short sighted. It's the one GW has chosen and in terms of getting as much money as possible into the guy in charge's pockets, it's working. There's simply no reason for Kirby to change directions when his approach has already made him super rich.
None of that takes into account that GWs model is predicated on keeping their vets happy because we are (allegedly) their chief method of advertising. If Vets are high maintenance, then GW have, at some point, decided that this cost is worth tolerating in order to derive the benefits from having them around.
Subsequent to making that decision, they have, almost wilfully if you want to pop your tinfoil hat on, neglected that part of their market.
If it emerges, in years to come, that there has been a rift in GW senior management for the last few years in regard to how best to move forward, I wouldn't be surprised, as it almost seems like there are two separate, opposed agendas in operation here.
I don't disagree with that at all, but I guess you have to consider that there are plenty of vets that don't look at GW "treating" them any way and rather look at GW from a much colder standpoint as a company trying to sell them something. I'd put myself in that category. As their prices have gone up, I've not gotten as much, but when they release something cool, I buy it if the price is one I'm willing to pay. If its not, well, that's more money to go spend on ammo, or kayak supplies, or books, or any of the other things I like to do.
Not only that but there are still plenty of areas where GW games are still the main game. We dabble in all sorts of gak here in Cincy. I've got armies for more skirmish games than I'd care to admit (seriously, who has two partially painted Alkemy armies... But at the end of the day, those skirmish games eventually phase out and we end up back at 40k. X-Wing has a pretty solid following right now, and Warmahordes has done decently for the past 4 years (although if the community consisted of less douchenozzles, it would be doing better). I'd be very surprised if that wasn't the case in other areas too.
I completely agree with you on the rift between senior management. That wouldn't surprise me at all, because it's very clear their senior design team really do care about the community, and creativity, etc.
And that math is well and fine(and makes complete sense) but I'd argue that GW doesn't retain 50% of the kids that start up one of their games. Maybe they do, but I've forgotten more faces than I remember ever playing locally.
Also in your argument you looked at 2 VERY different products and markets. GW doesn't have much in the $15 market that is useful towards a full game. Pretty much characters and single models only. So that is fine if Inquisitor 28mm is taking off.
But GW's standard army cost is $400-650USD. That puts them in a very different market than say MTG whose main products are under $5ea. Of course it's easy to sell a lot of cheap things, but GW is far from cheap in every aspect. Their core demographic has VERY limited and inconsistent funds to spend. There are well more than enough older working geeks like myself out there with money to spend, and GW just doesn't do that good of a job getting it from us.
No, you're totally right. They're really not apples and apples products, but I just did a quick search of gak that I either backed or followed to find two that funded at similar levels. I would also agree that the 50% number is high, but it was a complete hypothetical. The disparity in projected income is similar even if you decrease those numbers.
As to getting the $$ from the older geeks with jobs. They seem to sell out of all their Limited Edition products. The $250 Inquisitor Box Apocalypse sold out pretty quickly. I'd have loved one, but I wasn't willing to pay that much for it. Simple (see Az, I'm not a total tinfoil hat wearer ) But I agree that 40k/GW isn't akin to MtG. But you have to remember, parents now are used to video games and gak that cost anywhere from $40-$70 bucks. And has TONS of products in those pricepoints.
Not only that, but I know a ton of parents that would be more than happy to drop $50 on a model like this that fostered some creativity instead of a video game. If GW could figure out a way to make Warhammer and outdoors game as well, they'd really hit a gold mine with that parental demographic.
cincydooley wrote: If GW could figure out a way to make Warhammer and outdoors game as well, they'd really hit a gold mine with that parental demographic.
Picnic tables and tiki torches! We've had to call a few games due to low light conditions.
And GW selling out those LE items should be an indicator that VETERANS are a major player in their market, as kids aren't plopping $250 for a fancy rulebook bundle.
Forge World is another venue that shows GW has products to be purchased for the adult hobbyist. GW probably already thinks they're doing everything they need to do in order to grab this extra adult money.
Shaozun wrote: Also, people saying other games are cheaper: Really? Infinity is hell expensive to even acquire every model in an army, and there is so much minor customisation that would require buying entirely new models to accomplish. Warmachine is pretty expensive. At least W40k's prevalence, even as an Aussie, I can pick up something like a box of termies for $30 delivered with all their options. Cryx warjacks go for roughly $20+ each, with the majority being $30-40. If I don't like a particular warjack for a strat then I have to pick up an entirely new one, whereas with Termies I could fiddle around with the options on each unit.
For Infinity, TAGs go for at least $50 and heavy infantry go for $10. Sure your army may only have 10 units, but that's going to come out to at least $300, and Infinity has barely anyway options available for units, so you'll end up deciding you want a different TAG, not to mention the prevalence of W40k also means that buying them 2nd hand is incredibly easy and cheap.
Just like I don't have to buy 1 of every single Tyranid unit in the book, I also don't have to buy one of every Haqqislam blister for my Infinity army. Coupled with Corvus Belli's quite exceptional balancing that doesn't push new units or have any sort of power creep, Infinity is dirt fething cheap.
You can buy a single 300pt army, consisting of 10 models, and as long as there's a hacker and a Forward Observer or Engineer in there (simply for Objective games), you won't have to buy another model ever again, and you'll remain competitive. I can't say nearly the same thing about 40k, at all, in any capacity.
You make a valid point about TAGs being expensive - however, unlike GW who try to give their big, expensive kits stats you really want, Corvus Belli balance TAGs the same way as anything else. If you don't want to bring one, then you're not going to be any less competitve. You also don't need special weapons to kill a TAG. Line Infantry with a Rifle and a bit of luck can scrap one in one turn. TAGs tend to actually not be run often - they require building a list around supporting them, so unless you want to do that, you're better off leaving it on the shelf anyway.
Really, you're comments on Infinity look like they stem from a real lack of experience with the game.
Those experiences mirror my own with Infinity. I think I might own 14 Pan-O models and have found newer releases aren't any stronger or weaker than old ones.
Some of thier founding members left and started Blizzard software (The whole Blizzard ripping of GW and vice versa is pointless they where started by the same people. I am also certain I saw they name of an ex-GW guy in the Borderlands 2 credits and that was by Gearbox.)
Pretty sure that is completely incorrect.
GW Wikipedia entry wrote:Founded in 1975 at 15 Bolingbroke Road, London, by John Peake, Ian Livingstone, and Steve Jackson (not to be confused with US citizen Steve Jackson, also a games designer), Games Workshop was originally ...
Blizzard Entertainment Wikipedia entry wrote:Blizzard Entertainment, Inc. is an American video game developer and publisher founded on February 8, 1991 under the name Silicon & Synapse by three graduates of UCLA,[3] Michael Morhaime, Allen Adham and Frank Pearce and is currently ...
I swear I saw you post that in another thread too.
Not really trying to pick on you, just had to look it up myself to see if it were true.
GrimTuff wrote:The snark knight returns!
True or not, that made me laugh.
OP: Write the letter. Honestly, what could it hurt? Also, physical letters tend to be given a great deal more attention than e-mails, so good call there.
For those complaining that GW should focus more on their veterans, the simple scale of the new comers outweighs the purchases.
at work we have an 80/20 rule which determins whether something is worth pursuing, this is not rigid and if a buisness case if put forward we can break it.
I would imagine that the effort in putting somethign together as a nod to the veterans is proberbly cost exhorbitant. Forgeworld does this well.
if we take the current lizardmen army for example, it would have taken on average 2-3 years from starting concept to delivery. Think of all the people this would touch and the associated costs for that.
The nod to the vetrans is the new models, and rules updates, as if the only buisness model was to sell to the young guys who last about 6 months there would be no reason to keep releaseing new stuff.
Howard A Treesong wrote: You're probably thinking of Ian Livingstone who became CEO of Eidos. GW could only wish for the global recognition a brand like Tomb Raider has.
Not sure of all that you're saying (and you could be saying this). But Ian Livingstone of GW and Ian Livingstone of Eidos are one and the same.
That's correct, someone was saying that the people who started GW founded Blizzard. It's Eidos that one of them developed and made it bigger than GW. Lara Croft/Tomb Raider is much bigger than Space Marines.
Howard A Treesong wrote: That's correct, someone was saying that the people who started GW founded Blizzard. It's Eidos that one of them developed and made it bigger than GW. Lara Croft/Tomb Raider is much bigger than Space Marines.
But not bigger in some *ahem* departments than fem marines.
