As a start-up Infinity player and making it my primary game I started thinking about the prevalence of non-GW games. While there may be a plethora of obscure games out there.......how many have actually gained traction and are making headways? For example, I love Infinity and I love the setting, but idk if it is really making headway. Same with Malifaux, Warmahordes, etc. And do you think any of these games have the potential of becoming "Games Workshop scale games"? Or are all of these rendered to a niche corners? Your thoughts/opinions?

Infinity has a healthy scene in my area, as does wm/h and both Flames and Bolt action for WW2.

They still don't challenge GW for popularity, but a large factor in the 'popularity' for the other games is GW burnout.

A lot of the WM/H players shifted during the 3rd ed 40k years and never went back. Some might have even had *redacted* armies.

Infinity players we get are a mix.
Old school who played 40k up until 2nd ed, switched to necromunda and then just wanted another SF skirmish game (we like them - they bring their terrain over).
40k refugees.
Other old school types who will play pretty much any SF game (like me) but were just tired of GWs constant shafting of their wallets.

WM/Hordes is making a serious run in the states.

By GW scale games, I seriously hope you don't mean large scale army games. All three of the "major" players that you named are skirmish games. They are meant to be a squad of grunts with some characters thrown in. I'm going to assume that you mean a company that can operate on a scale of GW PLC.

Warmachine and Hordes is making a huge run in the US, honestly I think it might be because it's more of an "American"-esque game. While it certainly has the wide appeal that a game company wants their product to have, Privateer Press has created a game focused on competition and made it enjoyable from the casual gamer to the hard core tournament player. Which I think is what is drawing people in left and right. The store I used to play at has switched from just gaming with WM/H to focusing on tournament quality gaming. So no one bitches about a list someone brings, there are very few caster kill games anymore since they're focusing on scenario points, etc... I can still go in and have a fun game with them because I'm able to throw down as it were, but still have fun.

Out of those three, WM/H has the best chance at toppling the Gee Dubs here in 'MURICA. Infinity would need some rules rewriting (to make it clearer) and to solve their distribution issues, because I've wanted to rage quit the few game(s) I've played because I don't understand some of the wording of the rules, but it's a fun game. Malifaux... idk about Malifaux anymore honestly :-\. Wyrd seems to be spreading themselves into as many niche gaming areas as they can to cover their asses.

I don't see warmachine topping GW, mostly because the majority of their fanbase is old 40k players, which is why I find it very odd they aren't complaining about colossals and other warmachine problems. Warmachine is called a skirmish game, yet I see people spend far more on that then GW stuff.

We also have other wargames going on in my local area, dropzone commander has a good following.

While it's by no means scientific, I find it interesting how prevalent posts/threads are for non-GW games on forums like this one, which is primarily GW itself. It speaks to the appeal that those games might have to even carve out a niche even when the primary chatter is about GW, good, bad or otherwise as it might be.

Obviously there's some merging of topics going on, and it in no way separates out good healthy discussion from complaining/moaning about poor mechanics or whatever else might attract ire. Again, thoroughly unscientific.

But then you get little things, like the X-Wing subforum just opening up and already having roughly 1/10th the threads but 1/3 the posts of the Malifaux subforum (longer conversations rather than the 'one-offs' that seem to show up in the latter's section, things like that.

Not sure about who'll put a challenge to the throne as it were, but it's always interesting watching people/companies vie for market share, especially as a (mostly) outsider.

At times....I miss Ral Partha.....and the Battletech universe...

In my area, other games are roughly as prevalent as GW games. Most people here play WM/H, many play FoW, some play Infinity. People who only play GW are very few and far between, while many stopped playing GW altogether.

And then there is also a lot of newer, less well-known games around that are actually being played quite a lot, sometimes only for a while before they go down into obscurity, though.

So overall, I'd say if GW vanished suddenly, people would find enough to do with their hobby time around here.

By the way, dakka basically is THE GW forum. Few people here don't play GW, because there'd be no reason to stick around, other games have boards where they are better represented. So I'd expect people here to tend towards a GW-weighted opinion on this question.

 juraigamer wrote:
I don't see warmachine topping GW, mostly because the majority of their fanbase is old 40k players, which is why I find it very odd they aren't complaining about colossals and other warmachine problems. Warmachine is called a skirmish game, yet I see people spend far more on that then GW stuff.

We also have other wargames going on in my local area, dropzone commander has a good following.

Spending far more on Warmachine isn't an issue of scale. I can go out and spend 600 dollars and easily have 3 armies of average game size with pieces to spare because I like the aesthetic, the playstyle, or w/e reason. Unbound was released as a way for players with large collections to field and play those collections in a manner that wasn't super clunky. The next natural progression is to build large pieces that are made for an Unbound game (Colossals, Gargantuans, Battle Engines, Santa's Little Helper Lylth3). These pieces can be played in regular games, but they will definitely be the lions share of points.

And there were definitely complaints about the battle engines and colossals that were voiced when these things were announced, but players got over it because they're fun pieces and you don't need a special game type to use them. I can use my 120 dollar Mountain King as long as I have points for it, I don't need my opponent's permission to field it like I might need for them to let me play my Baneblade.

 Easy E wrote:
WM/Hordes is making a serious run in the states.

This. Few of my friend play 40K anymore...mostly due to cost. Warmachine is just so affordable, and it's so much faster to set up, play, and tear down.

 Alfndrate wrote:
but they will definitely be the lions share of points.

Except Lylyth3/Sevy3, who are negative points.

Overall, though, I think your point is a good one. Yes, there are some people that spend more on Warmahordes than some one might on GW, but they're buying either multiple armies or they're buying every option that a faction gives them, which gives an insane amount of list options that the same amount spent on GW never could. And while, yes, they both have alternate ways to play with larger collections, only one of them is producing pieces and books that ONLY cover that alternate way to play, making it more a separate investment rather than simply an alternate play style that's included in a book many people would probably pick up for other reasons.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
but they will definitely be the lions share of points.

Except Lylyth3/Sevy3, who are negative points.

Overall, though, I think your point is a good one. Yes, there are some people that spend more on Warmahordes than some one might on GW, but they're buying either multiple armies or they're buying every option that a faction gives them, which gives an insane amount of list options that the same amount spent on GW never could. And while, yes, they both have alternate ways to play with larger collections, only one of them is producing pieces and books that ONLY cover that alternate way to play, making it more a separate investment rather than simply an alternate play style that's included in a book many people would probably pick up for other reasons.

Hey! It's been awhile since I've played, don't be so mean D: I hate you! You're not my real mom! Everything else I agree with.

In Toronto you could probably find a gaming group for even the most obscure table top game.

Here it seems that GW products by far are the most well know and played. WM is popular and doing well. This is then followed by flames of war (which for the most part completely dominate the historical gaming market).

After that all the other gaming systems: infinity, firestorm armada, battletech, x-wing, etc. only hold a relatively small share of the market. This is not to be confused with an active community - there is lots of buzz, but the player base is simply not large enough to guarantee their longevity. Some will rise, some will fade.

Magic the Gathering also seems to cut into many player's budgets that otherwise might be used to experiment with some of the newer game systems (just something to also factor in)

Personally I think infinity has the potential to rise up as it is a great skirmish game that manages to keep both players engaged at all times - the models are also superb. It is just having a hard time convincing people that it isn't just another fad.

 Alfndrate wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:
I don't see warmachine topping GW, mostly because the majority of their fanbase is old 40k players, which is why I find it very odd they aren't complaining about colossals and other warmachine problems. Warmachine is called a skirmish game, yet I see people spend far more on that then GW stuff.

We also have other wargames going on in my local area, dropzone commander has a good following.

Spending far more on Warmachine isn't an issue of scale. I can go out and spend 600 dollars and easily have 3 armies of average game size with pieces to spare because I like the aesthetic, the playstyle, or w/e reason. Unbound was released as a way for players with large collections to field and play those collections in a manner that wasn't super clunky. The next natural progression is to build large pieces that are made for an Unbound game (Colossals, Gargantuans, Battle Engines, Santa's Little Helper Lylth3). These pieces can be played in regular games, but they will definitely be the lions share of points.

And there were definitely complaints about the battle engines and colossals that were voiced when these things were announced, but players got over it because they're fun pieces and you don't need a special game type to use them. I can use my 120 dollar Mountain King as long as I have points for it, I don't need my opponent's permission to field it like I might need for them to let me play my Baneblade.

I think you missed the point. The fact that you have a 120 dollar model in a skirmish game is the problem.

Infantry are as well. While a heavy warjack tends to be 9 points and around 30-40 USD, infantry units are far worse, and don't get me started on the $100 5 man box cavalry units.

The fact that you can just take a colossal and a warcaster at 15 points is just bad.

But these don't make it a bad game, its just not the shining light it's fanbase wants to make it seem (at least, in comparison to GW stuffs)

 juraigamer wrote:

I think you missed the point. The fact that you have a 120 dollar model in a skirmish game is the problem.

Infantry are as well. While a heavy warjack tends to be 9 points and around 30-40 USD, infantry units are far worse, and don't get me started on the $100 5 man box cavalry units.

The fact that you can just take a colossal and a warcaster at 15 points is just bad.

But these don't make it a bad game, its just not the shining light it's fanbase wants to make it seem (at least, in comparison to GW stuffs)

I didn't miss the point at all... the price of the model doesn't matter, skirmish is size of the game on the table. Price is dictated by the company that makes the game based on production costs + profit. I'm assuming you've seen a Colossal, they're fething huge, their 120USD price tag is completely justified considering that a Contemptor with a pair of arms is 71 dollars. Now that is FW vs PP, but I'm using it as a comparison of Resin vs Resin. Again though, that 115 dollar Wraith Knight is a plastic kit and is roughly the same size. And again, a Colossal is 20 points, if you're using it in a 35 point game, then most of your points are already taken up by that.

Infantry are roughly on cost with Games workshop. 10 man infantry box? 50 bucks. New 10 man Tactical Squad? 40 bucks. Character Blisters? 15 to 25 bucks in both games regardless of material. But your dollar gets stretched farther as you need less to play Warmachine and Hordes.

Note: It should be made aware that I played Trollbloods and my Champions box is 5 40mm based metal models for 45 dollars, they're 10 points of my list. Trollkin Fennblades? 10 40mm based PVC models for 50 bucks, that makes them a better buy than Terminators.

And what Colossal is so over powered that a 15 point list can't handle it? I've never been scared by Colossals/Gargantuans. I'm more afraid of character jacks and warcasters. Have you fought against a Colossal? They're just 2 heavy jacks on a single that can only take 3 Focus a turn and are easier to hit. Without support, 2 Heavies will fare much better.

Warmachine/Hordes is really the only game my playgroup does. Me and one other guy have small Infinity forces, but that's about it. I like 40k fluff & models enough that I would put up with the wonky rules, and degenerate game balance if other people in my group would. They won't though.

There's a shop in my relative area that when I arrived in from Germany, GW was his main item moved. Last time I was there, a couple months ago, 3/4ths of the GW "wall" was converted and now carrying other brands and other systems of games. At the time of my arrival, his second largest carrier was that Dystopia Wars... the steampunk/cyberpunk/ historical naval wargame? Anyway, that game is STILL his number 2 or maybe 3, but now his prime mover is Malifaux, quite possibly his historical and "off brand" miniatures as well.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
There's a shop in my relative area that when I arrived in from Germany, GW was his main item moved. Last time I was there, a couple months ago, 3/4ths of the GW "wall" was converted and now carrying other brands and other systems of games. At the time of my arrival, his second largest carrier was that Dystopia Wars... the steampunk/cyberpunk/ historical naval wargame? Anyway, that game is STILL his number 2 or maybe 3, but now his prime mover is Malifaux, quite possibly his historical and "off brand" miniatures as well.

Same situation at my FLGS...At their old location they had an entire wall devoted to GW models. Now that they've moved, the GW has been relegated to a corner and is rapidly disappearing under a tidal wave of Malifaux, Dust Warfare, Dust Tactics, Warmachine, and Hordes. Sadly they don't support Infinity, though there are a handful of players locally.

~Tim?

Around here, the stores have three walls and a front area. OThe two long walls on each side are GW and Warmachine/Hordes respectively. The back wall will be a mix of other stuff such as RPGs, board games, and other miniature games (Dystopian Wars, Infinty, Flames of War, Old Glory, etc).

The Warmachine/Hordes wall will often also hav ethe cash register (hence making the wall smaller), and the register is surrounded by all the CCG stuff.

Based ont his GW still seems to barely be holdign on to the largest selling area, but Warmachine/Hordes is closing in.

Hm. I'm pretty surprised Infinity isn't taking more bites out of 40k players thanks to its Scifi (and more hard science) setting. At the least it should be getting more 2nd edition 40k and Necromunda converts. I always imagined the order (if there is any such thing) of how well the games are doing are:

1. GW games
2. Warmahordes
3. Infinity
4. Malifaux
5. Dropzone Commander/Flames of War

Am I wrong?

Also, one person posted that Infinity's rules are frustrating. How so? I've had a good read over the rulebook several times and it seems to be a very tight and well put together system. As nicely put together as Warmahordes actually and pretty intuitive once you get the flow of everything.

Grndhog89 wrote:
How so? I've had a good read over the rulebook several times and it seems to be a very tight and well put together system. As nicely put together as Warmahordes actually and pretty intuitive once you get the flow of everything.

Infinity is extraordinarily sensitive to terrain setup and gets un-fun for one party or another very quickly if it's even off by just a little bit for the match up. Some terms and situations are left a bit vague, and the English translation still feels a bit spotty. Finally the spread on rolls is a tad chaotic compared to other games, the "Crits Trump Everything" kind of puts a damper on getting really interesting game states.

I really felt like when reading the rules there was going to be all this cool tactical movement, maneuvering and guessing where mines were.

What it turned to out be was just to be a series of static firefights with his infiltrators/mechanized deployment while standing in my deployment zone. Moving at all was basically suicide. It really felt like the only thing that mattered were how many HMGs you brought and how lucky your crits were. Now I'll grant some of this probably had to do with our terrain, as there were definitely a few "too good" sniper perches in our limited collection terrain. However, per my first point needing "Just So" terrain is part of what makes it frustrating to play in practice.

Grndhog89 wrote:


Am I wrong?

According to how well things sell in the US: yes and no.

The top 5 games in the US as of Spring 2013:

1. 40K
2. Warmachine
3. X-wing
4. Fantasy
5. Hordes

I strike out Hordes because most people would consider Warmachine and Hordes as one game(and with good reason), but the lines are still separate for sale reasons. Since ICv2 only covers the top 5 sellers, there's speculation as to which would be #6(and thus the #5 top most popular game). Looking back at late 2010 until summer 2012, Malifaux was the one nipping at Hordes' heels, so I'd reason that it's doing better than Infinity.

I disagree with your lumping of GW games into a single thing, as well, since then we're talking about how well companies are doing, not how well certain games are doing.

Chongara wrote:

Grndhog89 wrote:
How so? I've had a good read over the rulebook several times and it seems to be a very tight and well put together system. As nicely put together as Warmahordes actually and pretty intuitive once you get the flow of everything.

Infinity is extraordinarily sensitive to terrain setup and gets un-fun for one party or another very quickly if it's even off by just a little bit for the match up. Some terms and situations are left a bit vague, and the English translation still feels a bit spotty. Finally the spread on rolls is a tad chaotic compared to other games, the "Crits Trump Everything" kind of puts a damper on getting really interesting game states.

I really felt like when reading the rules there was going to be all this cool tactical movement, maneuvering and guessing where mines were.

What it turned to out be was just to be a series of static firefights with his infiltrators/mechanized deployment while standing in my deployment zone. Moving at all was basically suicide. It really felt like the only thing that mattered were how many HMGs you brought and how lucky your crits were. Now I'll grant some of this probably had to do with our terrain, as there were definitely a few "too good" sniper perches in our limited collection terrain. However, per my first point needing "Just So" terrain is part of what makes it frustrating to play in practice.

If that is what the guy used for your "demo game", then he was a toolbag.

With that said:

Grndhog89 wrote:Hm. I'm pretty surprised Infinity isn't taking more bites out of 40k players thanks to its Scifi (and more hard science) setting.

According to the two local shops which both stock Infinity, the distribution is horrendous here in the US. They are having to use three different distributors to maintain just the starter boxes.

There has always been a raft of other wargames in similar settings to GW but few have moved on to massed battle games in 25-28mm like 40k/WHFB or survived all of the last 25 years.

I think that technology has moved on and allowed others to step up to the same sort of quality as GW in products other than metal.. The metal gap (if there was one) closed sometime ago.

 Jihadin wrote:
At times....I miss Ral Partha.....and the Battletech universe...

Open your eyes soldier!

 Kanluwen wrote:

If that is what the guy used for your "demo game", then he was a toolbag.

I should clarify. I spotted the game online and really liked the minis for the most part, particularly the nomad remotes. My playgroup decided to have a "Try new games phase" and I picked up a couple starters to share with the group.

Per community guidelines we did our first couple demo games with 3 LI & 1 HI on each side. It was for the most part pretty interesting, we moved around a little ducked behind cover etc... Went prone to crawl out of LOS. It was cool. It wasn't quite as fully dynamic as I'd hoped, but I assumed that was just a lack of advanced gear and stuff. We had some fun with it, and me and another guy decided to buy in.

We build up little by little, first 100pts for a few games, then 150 and so on. This is when the game state I described started to creep up. In contrast to what I read in the rules and the demo games with a few pieces, things just started boiling down to "Stand and shoot, first to crit wins". The higher the points went, the more it felt like "HMGs: The Game".

I'll grant we only got in maybe ~10 games total, before I think my opponent started to sense my frustration and kind of backed off trying it in favor of Warmahordes again. I love the idea of infinity and I'm still open to playing it. I just don't see it as something I could really get into the way I've gotten into Warmahordes without finding a good solution to how static it felt. There isn't anything wrong with "Stand and shoot" the game, but that's not want out of a small-scale sci-fi skirmish game.

Warmachine/Hordes doesn't have half the rules aimed at movement modes and positioning that infinity does. Yet I felt like I get more dynamic action out of 1 activation of my warpwolf stalker than I did out of all my infinity games combined.

Fair enough.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Fair enough.

Do you think my experiences are broadly reflective of what the game actually is? I'm assuming from your avatar you play a fair amount. Like I said, I like a lot of what the game appears to offer on the surface. We've just had a very hard time bringing that out. I'd really be all over it if there was a good way to get more than standing in my DZ shooting HMGs.

I don't play a huge amount, but from what I've had as experiences?

No, that is not. That is reflective of someone going overboard with HMGs and infiltrators.

If I knew what armies you both had been using I could make a better statement, but I would say to ask on the official Infinity forums for some ideas as they are way more experienced than I am.

The best thing about all the rival skirmish systems is that changing faction/gang/team is a lot cheaper and quicker. You start with one force, play with it, get used to it, then something else catches your eye. You can build up multiple forces very quickly, which help keeps things fresh. Getting a GW army up to speed, takes a lot longer and costs a lot more. If you decide to put together another force, it's the same thing over again. Before I dropped out of gaming I had 3 forces for Rules of Engagement, two for Confrontation, 2 for Warmachine / Hordes and 2 for Urban War.

I keep seeing people talking about Infinity...but I've never seen it in my area

Guess I'll look into it and see what this game is all about.

Our club is all non-GW.

 juraigamer wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:
I don't see warmachine topping GW, mostly because the majority of their fanbase is old 40k players, which is why I find it very odd they aren't complaining about colossals and other warmachine problems. Warmachine is called a skirmish game, yet I see people spend far more on that then GW stuff.

We also have other wargames going on in my local area, dropzone commander has a good following.

Spending far more on Warmachine isn't an issue of scale. I can go out and spend 600 dollars and easily have 3 armies of average game size with pieces to spare because I like the aesthetic, the playstyle, or w/e reason. Unbound was released as a way for players with large collections to field and play those collections in a manner that wasn't super clunky. The next natural progression is to build large pieces that are made for an Unbound game (Colossals, Gargantuans, Battle Engines, Santa's Little Helper Lylth3). These pieces can be played in regular games, but they will definitely be the lions share of points.

And there were definitely complaints about the battle engines and colossals that were voiced when these things were announced, but players got over it because they're fun pieces and you don't need a special game type to use them. I can use my 120 dollar Mountain King as long as I have points for it, I don't need my opponent's permission to field it like I might need for them to let me play my Baneblade.

I think you missed the point. The fact that you have a 120 dollar model in a skirmish game is the problem.

Infantry are as well. While a heavy warjack tends to be 9 points and around 30-40 USD, infantry units are far worse, and don't get me started on the $100 5 man box cavalry units.

The fact that you can just take a colossal and a warcaster at 15 points is just bad.

But these don't make it a bad game, its just not the shining light it's fanbase wants to make it seem (at least, in comparison to GW stuffs)

LOL, , I know of only one company that base there price off of the ingame point cost. The rest base it off the cost to produce the model, guess witch company dose it the wrong way it not hard.

OP, let just say out of the 10 guys going to the localish gamecon. 1 went for 40K, the rest Warmachine with 2 of them hit the Infinity games as well.The store it self is most FoW (loving it) and a spaceship war game forget the name, not my cup of tea.

 mega_bassist wrote:
I keep seeing people talking about Infinity...but I've never seen it in my area

Guess I'll look into it and see what this game is all about.

You might not have a stockist if there's nobody playing.

I've found that with Infinity, the more shops stocking it the better the establishment of a playerbase.

from what i've seen in ireland: aside from the die-hard 40kers, warmachine/hordes is the new big thing with a big, and growing presence.

from what i've seen in scotland: 40k and Fantasy are present-they get a nice slice of the pie, but its far from overwhelming. GW specialist games have a bit of a standing too (local club finished a necro league recently, and ive seen a lot of bloodbowl and 28mm inquisitor being plated) Warmachine/hordes has made massive inroads in the scene, games like malifaux and infinity are extremely popular and are growing fast with a lot of interest. games like flames of war are equally popular, if not more so in some communities. and for some reason in scotland, dystopian wars has had a massive impact with a very large presence.

i've also seen something relatively new since i moved over a few years ago: people who got into gaming through avenues other than 40k. Yup. Quite a few of my warmachine buddies have never actually played 40k or fantasy, and got introduced to gaming through fmaes of war. im starting to see gamers who have gotten into the scene via warmachine/hordes as well.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 mega_bassist wrote:
I keep seeing people talking about Infinity...but I've never seen it in my area

Guess I'll look into it and see what this game is all about.

You might not have a stockist if there's nobody playing.

I've found that with Infinity, the more shops stocking it the better the establishment of a playerbase.

That could be it. I haven't been to the FLGS in quite some time, so I don't know what they stock/don't stock. I will admit, it does look pretty interesting.

non-GW wargaming is probably at the heighest point since the 90s and growing further. It used to be that smaller game studios lived and died by distributors and retailers supporting their stuff and that if things didn't sell well through the distributors, you were hosed as a publisher. Now companies have the ability to communicate with and sell directly to their customers through the internet. They can even raise funds directly from their customers and fans for upcoming projects.

That said, non-GW wargaming has also never had an easier in with distributors and retailers. GW's switch to direct trade means that the distributors are largely selling non-GW product. So when something like X-Wing comes along, that'll get to local stores.

Even companies that are heavily about using the internet to get their stuff in front of people are finding success with traditional stores and distribution. In June, for example, Mantic reported in their podcast that three fourths of Dreadball has been sold through independent retailers and the first quarter through their Kickstarter. If the numbers hold for Deadzone, that'll be a substantial amount of miniatures going out all over the world given the level to which their projects were funded.

We're in a very different place than the late 90s or early 2000s. Non-GW wargames are not just popping up and then dying off. They're sticking around, expanding and thriving. Privateer Press is celebrating Warmachine's 10th Anniversary at GenCon as I type this, for example.

I always find it amusing when people try to create some sort of dichtonomy between "army-scale" GW and "skirmish" others. 40k was and is a skirmish game, just an overgrown one. So is WHFB. They are both designed as 28-35 mm games with little or no abstraction mechanics that could lead you to believe that a single model represents more than one warrior.

Locally, WmH is the largest after 40k/WhFb (it varies between tourneys). FoW has a smaller following, Infinity is on the way, as is Malifaux.

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:
I always find it amusing when people try to create some sort of dichtonomy between "army-scale" GW and "skirmish" others. 40k was and is a skirmish game, just an overgrown one. So is WHFB. They are both designed as 28-35 mm games with little or no abstraction mechanics that could lead you to believe that a single model represents more than one warrior.

And that is a big reason they don't work any more.

One big barrier to Infinity is you need tonnes bazillions terrain--your FLGS or gaming group may or may not have this or be willing to set it up for a game they haven't tried.

I also think plenty of people will at least try different games/armies. Part of the tipping point for me finally trying warmachine after mulling it for like a year was that starting a small army would cost about the same as a decent-sized addition to either of my GW armies.

I tend to think of historicals separately, I'm a little surprised there's not more crossover (I have to believe plenty of wargamers are WWII nerds!)

For the little it's worth, my local FLGS has FoW as it's top game. But then again, FoW is very popular in my region of the city, and I know he makes a lot more on FoW sales per unit than he does on GW.

Grndhog89 wrote:
.how many have actually gained traction and are making headways? For example, I love Infinity and I love the setting, but idk if it is really making headway. Same with Malifaux, Warmahordes, etc. And do you think any of these games have the potential of becoming "Games Workshop scale games"? Or are all of these rendered to a niche corners? Your thoughts/opinions?

I can't speak to whether any games are become "GW" is size/popularity. however, as far as which have gained traction and headway, it really depends on where you are.
In truth, "Headway" doesn't mean much for these smaller games as long as they are still progressing. Try not to worry about whether a game is a GW killer or not. What matters is if you can find any one to play the game.

When looking into a new game, the most important thing is to look about locally and see who is playing your game. And don't just check the FLGS. Check Meetup, and small local online forums. Many folks playing less popular games have mostly abandoned the FLGS in favor of groups playing in member's homes, so sometimes you need to dig. All that said, sometimes a game may look and play brilliantly, but it might not be worth your gaming dollar if there isn't anyone locally playing the game.

Here in Chicagoland, we've got enough gamers that if you're willing to travel a few miles, you can probably find players for just about any game you want. Everything from 40k, to Warmachine, to Malifaux and Dreadball and even indie games like Song of Blades and Heroes. For some of the more obscure games, it's a bit harder, but if I was interested, I could easily find players, even for less popular games like Kings of War or Hail Caesar.

My club is a bit infrequent in terms of 40k gamers, fow is massive here, (Stafford Games, he sells the full range so not surprising) it easily rivals 40k, especially when most of the fow players dabble in many other systems, ie bolt action, as of this year, fantasy and magic the gathering dominate the Thursday gaming night, traditionally 40k's spot, but all could change.

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:
I always find it amusing when people try to create some sort of dichtonomy between "army-scale" GW and "skirmish" others. 40k was and is a skirmish game, just an overgrown one. So is WHFB. They are both designed as 28-35 mm games with little or no abstraction mechanics that could lead you to believe that a single model represents more than one warrior.

Locally, WmH is the largest after 40k/WhFb (it varies between tourneys). FoW has a smaller following, Infinity is on the way, as is Malifaux.

They may be all "Skirmish" games, in that technically they are all games in which one-man equals one-man.However, it is worth making distinctions between the "Scope" of different games.

-40k is somewhere between Platoon and Battalion level and groups miniatures into.
-Infinity and Malifaux are "Warband" (a vague term, but one that most folks understand) level games. Each player controls one Squad or Section of troops, but treat each minature as an individual unit.
-Warmachine is at the low end of a platoon level.

Understanding the "Scope" or "Level" of combat makes it easier to understand one of the gripes some folks have with 40k and WHFB. That is, having Two Battalions of Troops fighting it out on a field the size of a soccer pitch is ridiculously compressed and beyond unrealistic.

At best, 40k is on company level. Which is still a far cry from anything I'd calm "Army Scale" But a company on a soccer field is still very compressed. We're talking a guy per metre or so, depending on size. Fire and movement becomes very difficult and you are highly vulnerable to ordnance.

Heck, even Epic usually doesn't reach decent batallion sizes.

At an FLGS near me, non GW games of all sorts are the most played, and WHFB is more popular than 40k. Go figure.

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:
At best, 40k is on company level. Which is still a far cry from anything I'd calm "Army Scale" But a company on a soccer field is still very compressed. We're talking a guy per metre or so, depending on size. Fire and movement becomes very difficult and you are highly vulnerable to ordnance.

Heck, even Epic usually doesn't reach decent batallion sizes.

You are correct. I meant Company (80-200 men) not Battalion.

I agree, though that ordinance is a whole other thing entirely. If any army concentrated their troops the way a 40k game does, the enemy wouldn't bother sending their own troops. They'd simply send in a single airstrike or Artillery Barrage and wipe them out nearly instantly.

Perhaps though we shouldn't knock that particular straw man down too much though, no one actually things 40k is in any way realistic...

... do they?

In Hong Kong, it's strange. No Warmachine any more, but lots of Bolt Action.

Warmachine was heavily touted here. People here like mecha. They should like Warmachine, but no one plays it anymore.

Bolt Action is really popular. It might be overtaking Warhammer Fantasy in prevalence/popularity, as crazy as that sounds.

So on a given night, I think it's 50% of tables are playing 40k, 25% WhF, 25% Bolt Action...and Bolt Action is gaining.

---

There are other lines, but no one plays them regularly. Like the Napoleonic War stuff, the shop is trying to tout that.

Bolt Action might just be the new shiny, popular for a short while. However, I dunno...this looks like a keeper.

 Platuan4th wrote:
According to how well things sell in the US: yes and no.

The top 5 games in the US as of Spring 2013:

1. 40K
2. Warmachine
3. X-wing
4. Fantasy
5. Hordes

I strike out Hordes because most people would consider Warmachine and Hordes as one game(and with good reason), but the lines are still separate for sale reasons. Since ICv2 only covers the top 5 sellers, there's speculation as to which would be #6(and thus the #5 top most popular game). Looking back at late 2010 until summer 2012, Malifaux was the one nipping at Hordes' heels, so I'd reason that it's doing better than Infinity.

I disagree with your lumping of GW games into a single thing, as well, since then we're talking about how well companies are doing, not how well certain games are doing.

Really interesting info, thanks for sharing this, I'll try to look at this ICv2 source. I had no idea Warmachine was still so popular.

In my gaming group the current lineup for GW is not doing well.

Mordheim is still played, as is Necromunda. Battlefleet Gothic gets dusted off, now and again.

Other than that... Kings of War, Warmahordes, and TSR's Battlesystem.

Oh, and Dreadball... Grumble, grumble, grumble....

Most of it comes down to folks not loving the current editions of the main GW games - while it is unlikely that Kings of War would disappear if there was a new-new edition of Warhammer Fantasy it is likely that WHFB would at least see some play again.

The Auld Grump

At the clubs I attend, one has a pretty dynamic player base and games in play changes frequently, the other is a purely 40k affair.

Most nights at the Bunker there will be half of the area are playing either WmH, Dystopian Wars or sometimes Bloodbowl. They're pretty well organised and backed by some small retailers which helps to focus on certain systems. The other half of the room will be a mix of WFB, KoW, 40k, X-wing and boardgames, probably in that order of popularity.

Much against the wisdom of Dakka there does seem to be growing interest in WFB, the only thing stopping me is no new Dwarf book.

There are a few clubs near me, the older established ones rarely have any 40K or fantasy on the ground, whilst games like FoW, infinity, malifeaux, dead mans hand, x-wing are all popular.

The newer clubs (local GW bunker closed a few months back) are all very 40K/fantasy heavy

From a fairly unscientific skim round my local club on an average night, it appears that there's maybe 1-3 Current GW games on (40K/Fantasy), at least as much Dystopian Wars, a few skirmish games, 1-2 Flames Of War games and a few card games, with quite a few gamers getting into Drop Zone Commander.

40K is still the easiest thing to arrange a game of because everyone has an army, but it probably makes up about 10-20% of the games at most on any given night.

Yeah that's the flip side, at the Bunker (not a GW bunker btw, just a club called the bunker) where its mostly non GW presently; if a 40k league starts most people can pull an army out of the bag and there will be a dozen people interested.

I tend to find that people's perceptions of what games are big, small, growing or dieing are all very dependent on their locality. The fact is that at any particular venue, it only takes one or two people spruking a game, pushing it and simply turning up with an army to play to kick off a game. A mere handful of motivated people can change the balance of games being played significantly, and will affect what other players start to play - and similarly, if those players lose motivation or move or have to give up gaming or whatever, then a game can just as quickly die.

And just as it can in the very local scene, it only takes a handful of dedicated individuals organizing events to create a wider community for a game in an area/city/state or what have you - build the community and they will come.

So views on these things can be quite skewed from a local perspective.

 Maddermax wrote:
I tend to find that people's perceptions of what games are big, small, growing or dieing are all very dependent on their locality. The fact is that at any particular venue, it only takes one or two people spruking a game, pushing it and simply turning up with an army to play to kick off a game. A mere handful of motivated people can change the balance of games being played significantly, and will affect what other players start to play - and similarly, if those players lose motivation or move or have to give up gaming or whatever, then a game can just as quickly die.

And just as it can in the very local scene, it only takes a handful of dedicated individuals organizing events to create a wider community for a game in an area/city/state or what have you - build the community and they will come.

So views on these things can be quite skewed from a local perspective.

Likewise, a handful of entrenched individuals can make introducing a new game a losing battle.
At the store about 3 miles from me, if it ain't GW or Warmahordes you have darn near zero chance of getting anyone to even play it.
That's bringing both sides for games like Bolt Action, Flames of War and Kings of War; demoing; and even giving away free stuff for playing in a demo.
After 2-3 months of trying, I hung it up at that store. Just not worth the effort.

In my gaming group getting people to try other games is like pulling teeth. No one wants to spend money on a non-GW wargame because they've been burned too many times in the past. In fact, it's like pulling teeth just getting them to try anything not 40k.

I have, however, made headway with Infinity. I've gotten my brother to give it a try and he's picked up a decent amount of Yu Jing, and I've gotten one friend to try it with Aleph. I'm considering just giving my Combined Army stuff to my other friend if it'll get him into the game.

However, collecting and playing are different things. Only my brother and I have had a few starter games, and my other friend I gave him a basic run through the ARO system. Really need to dig into the game more with them.

I've been considering trying to get them into Dropzone Commander, but I know I'll have far less luck on that.

Noir wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:
I don't see warmachine topping GW, mostly because the majority of their fanbase is old 40k players, which is why I find it very odd they aren't complaining about colossals and other warmachine problems. Warmachine is called a skirmish game, yet I see people spend far more on that then GW stuff.

We also have other wargames going on in my local area, dropzone commander has a good following.

Spending far more on Warmachine isn't an issue of scale. I can go out and spend 600 dollars and easily have 3 armies of average game size with pieces to spare because I like the aesthetic, the playstyle, or w/e reason. Unbound was released as a way for players with large collections to field and play those collections in a manner that wasn't super clunky. The next natural progression is to build large pieces that are made for an Unbound game (Colossals, Gargantuans, Battle Engines, Santa's Little Helper Lylth3). These pieces can be played in regular games, but they will definitely be the lions share of points.

And there were definitely complaints about the battle engines and colossals that were voiced when these things were announced, but players got over it because they're fun pieces and you don't need a special game type to use them. I can use my 120 dollar Mountain King as long as I have points for it, I don't need my opponent's permission to field it like I might need for them to let me play my Baneblade.

I think you missed the point. The fact that you have a 120 dollar model in a skirmish game is the problem.

Infantry are as well. While a heavy warjack tends to be 9 points and around 30-40 USD, infantry units are far worse, and don't get me started on the $100 5 man box cavalry units.

The fact that you can just take a colossal and a warcaster at 15 points is just bad.

But these don't make it a bad game, its just not the shining light it's fanbase wants to make it seem (at least, in comparison to GW stuffs)

LOL, , I know of only one company that base there price off of the ingame point cost. The rest base it off the cost to produce the model, guess witch company dose it the wrong way it not hard.

OP, let just say out of the 10 guys going to the localish gamecon. 1 went for 40K, the rest Warmachine with 2 of them hit the Infinity games as well.The store it self is most FoW (loving it) and a spaceship war game forget the name, not my cup of tea.

let's not forget that with warmachine, you actually have different options to try out. The way GW plays, sure, there are these interesting units, but the rules are so bloody bad that the only way you would ever voluntarily field these models is if the tournament banned the standard units. Let's say, IG players are required to take penal legion.... or tau are required to take kroot. There are some units in GW's games with such terrible rules that they would never be fielded. In fact the rules organization is such that an individual has very limited reason to deviate from a certain army list. With warmachine, there's a lot more options. The way the models interact means that there is great value in picking up different units and experimenting with how they interact. There is actually a point to picking up another unit, and what's more, you are not limited by a force organization chart. There's something to be said for the appeal of a game that has more interest in what units you pick rather than what you equip your units with. Add to that the presence of the mercenary faction, making it immensely easy to expand to the next army, and have it playable.

as to the argument about expensive models in skirmish games... you don't appear to have the people in your gaming club who go out and buy their models from kromlech or scibor. What about the guys that custom sculpt their models? It's very easy to exceed the cost of a squad of models in 40k. Heck, just buy from FW! Buy resin bases from a 3rd party, and some more special bits and gear to customize your mark 3 armor..... and there you go. Then there's the fact that, if your club and opponent permit, you are more than welcome to field your own home-built construct. You can go to an FLGS, buy the WM bases, WM deck of cards, then waddle over to reapers' bones products, pick out a few characters, then walk over to the plasticard section, and buy a bunch of stuff out of there, go home, and get yourself an army at quite a reduced price (discounting the cost of labour).

Another test against your expense complaint is to grab $150, and see what that gets you in any given game. It gets you the shortest distance in GW. You can't get a playable army on that kind of money (fine, codex space marines, with the DV set, and a lot of filing pointy and organic bits off....). Most other systems will already have you playing normal games. Throwing a rant about $120 models on the tabletop needs to be put back into context. It's like complaining that the cost of gas is ridiculous and no reasonable person can expect to keep their truck's tank full (and that's because a reasonable person would be expected to drive something smaller with a less thirsty engine). Just because you CAN throw a $120 model on the tabletop, doesn't mean you are required to do so where options present themselves.

Addendum: this being the case, it's pointless for me to mention it, but the low cost of starting another game means that GW is only running on ubiquity. The price difference is driving people into other games. I remember playing a game recently, and people powered through their first game of 40k, and some others were standing around bored with their armies on standby, but still wouldn't throw them on the table, because they were waiting for the tables to clear for other stuff (in this case, it was primarily infinity)

Shameless bump.

Other than the collectable figures of events like characters and soldiers from the American civil war, I've only ever heard of GW games, like a large chunk of 40k players unfortunately. I feel bad and ignorant about it to be honest.

 SilentScreamer wrote:
Other than the collectable figures of events like characters and soldiers from the American civil war, I've only ever heard of GW games, like a large chunk of 40k players unfortunately. I feel bad and ignorant about it to be honest.

But see, you're from the HHHHobby-land, so you can be excused for your ignorance of the larger gaming world around you

 SilentScreamer wrote:
Other than the collectable figures of events like characters and soldiers from the American civil war, I've only ever heard of GW games, like a large chunk of 40k players unfortunately. I feel bad and ignorant about it to be honest.

If you only game and shop in GW stores and only know people who do the same, you'd have no exposure other than curiosity on the internet to other game systems, so it's not surprising when people have no idea of the hobby outside of GW. Don't feel bad, you're just new to the hobby, it seems.

Use Dakka as a place to get information on alternate games. Just don't be surprised if your GW store staff get annoyed when you discuss competing product, they don't like that. Look around you for other stores.

This is what I see in the Chicagoland area from my view on it. The GW games seems to be fairly prevalent here, and with a good amount of stores and the GW Bunker being around the Chicagoland area and outnumbering the your typical FLGS by a good margin it seems, that would make sense. Malifaux and Warmahordes seem to also be the next closest thing to what is popular in the Chicago land area, with Infinity having a token presences (although if you go into the city itself, there seems to be a a lot more Infinity and the other games more popular there...

Anecdotal evidence, I know....

Edit: I forgot to add that the Non-Gw games are slowly starting to get more and more of a following.

Here in the Dallas area, two stores have just clearanced all their GW product to get rid of it and only one that I know of is even still doing special orders. Apocalypse was the last major release they were going to stock.

OTOH there is a very steady WM/H scene and it seems to keep getting bigger as people show up and get involved.

 Tanakosyke22 wrote:
This is what I see in the Chicagoland area from my view on it. The GW games seems to be fairly prevalent here, and with a good amount of stores and the GW Bunker being around the Chicagoland area and outnumbering the your typical FLGS by a good margin it seems, that would make sense. Malifaux and Warmahordes seem to also be the next closest thing to what is popular in the Chicago land area, with Infinity having a token presences (although if you go into the city itself, there seems to be a a lot more Infinity and the other games more popular there...

Anecdotal evidence, I know....

Edit: I forgot to add that the Non-Gw games are slowly starting to get more and more of a following.

This pretty much jives with what I've seen (I'm in the city). There seems to be pretty strong presences here for WM and FoW. Also the amazing store "Games Plus" store in the NW suburbs seems to serve as an anchor for many less popular games such as Battletech. Not a daily presence, but regularly scheduled events for those kind of games.

 Eilif wrote:

 Tanakosyke22 wrote:
This is what I see in the Chicagoland area from my view on it. The GW games seems to be fairly prevalent here, and with a good amount of stores and the GW Bunker being around the Chicagoland area and outnumbering the your typical FLGS by a good margin it seems, that would make sense. Malifaux and Warmahordes seem to also be the next closest thing to what is popular in the Chicago land area, with Infinity having a token presences (although if you go into the city itself, there seems to be a a lot more Infinity and the other games more popular there...

Anecdotal evidence, I know....

Edit: I forgot to add that the Non-Gw games are slowly starting to get more and more of a following.

This pretty much jives with what I've seen (I'm in the city). There seems to be pretty strong presences here for WM and FoW. Also the amazing store "Games Plus" store in the NW suburbs seems to serve as an anchor for many less popular games such as Battletech. Not a daily presence, but regularly scheduled events for those kind of games.

Yeah, that is the case for Infinity as well as the group that I know of that goes to Games Plus meets up for Infinity once a month. Although it seems there are some people that are willing to give it a try in it.But yeah, Games Plus is a damn amazing store (I mostly go on Saturdays for WM/H and Infinity if anyone is playing that.

Where I live, which is a good hour drive from Mount Prospect to the North a bit, no one either a) Does not know the other games other than Warhammer since they are more of the little timmys or b) give you the stink eye for playing anything else than Warhammer 40k/ Fantasy. Then again, it does not help that there are no FLGS within my town or a 5-10 mile radius of that, but only a GW store. Not saying all people who play GW games are like that, there are some cool dudes, but I rather go make that hour drive and then try to see if anyone here wants to try a different game here really.

As someone who primarily plays 40k and Infinity (trying to make Infinity my main game), what can you all tell me about Flames of War and Dropzone Commander? Both sound suitably sci-fi enough to interest me. I have absolutely no interest in Malifaux. Its just not a science fiction type setting and those are what attract me to games typically (I can do some fantasy but meh).

Grndhog89 wrote:
As someone who primarily plays 40k and Infinity (trying to make Infinity my main game), what can you all tell me about Flames of War and Dropzone Commander? Both sound suitably sci-fi enough to interest me. I have absolutely no interest in Malifaux. Its just not a science fiction type setting and those are what attract me to games typically (I can do some fantasy but meh).

Flames of War is about as far from Sci-fi as one can get without getting into fantasy.

It's a WWII 15mm "mass battle" game. I.e. you have companies of tanks, artillery, planes, infantry, etc... and you can fight other people as you might fight another 40k player, or you can reenact major battles from WW2. The army books are based around major operations or points in the war, and you can generally find a way to have one army and play it through a few different books. It's split into Early, Mid, and Late war you can technically play Early vs Late war, though there is a power difference between the wars since technology was getting better.

Dropzone Commander is a 10mm mass battle game where you have battlegroups of dropships that are carrying troops, whether it's tanks, infantry in APCs, etc... The game truly revolves around the dropships as those can move across the board quicker than the tanks and infantry, so it's about getting your troops into a drop zone, getting what you need, and getting out alive.

On that topic I've seen allot of Malifaux on sale recently.

Is this a new Edition type thing or is there a general dropping of the system?

 notprop wrote:
On that topic I've seen allot of Malifaux on sale recently.

Is this a new Edition type thing or is there a general dropping of the system?

There is a new edition dropping in a few months (was available for presale at GenCon) with all new plastic boxes (with several being available at GenCon). So people are either unloading because they got their new boxes, or they're unloading because they dislike the changes. I'm the idiot, I dislike the changes, but still love the models, the fluff, and the world. So I haven't sold anything yet .

And if Through the Breach is as fun as I believe it will be, then I've got minis for the game.

Eh. I think I'll stay with Infinity then. As much as I love history I don't think historical wargaming is my thing. History is best left to books and tomes for me to read about, not re-enact. And I perused the DZ Commander site today and while it looks cool I don't like the big scale of the game. Infinity appeals to me more what with you having as little as 5 models per side and each model acting as an individual squad. Also the background of Infinity is better for someone who is a poli sci/international relations geek.

Grndhog89 wrote:
Eh. I think I'll stay with Infinity then. As much as I love history I don't think historical wargaming is my thing. History is best left to books and tomes for me to read about, not re-enact. And I perused the DZ Commander site today and while it looks cool I don't like the big scale of the game. Infinity appeals to me more what with you having as little as 5 models per side and each model acting as an individual squad. Also the background of Infinity is better for someone who is a poli sci/international relations geek.

to be fair, its not necessrily all about recreating history. yes, you can re-fight the d-day landings if you wish, just as easily as you can re-enact one of the many famous battles in 40k.

but you can also 'explore'. take flames of war - yes, its a ww2 'historical' game. but its really, really well designed. i have been very impressed with it. and its just as easy to imagine some forgotten nameless battle in some godforsaken part of the eastern front between the germans and the russians. yes, historically we know what happened in the 'big picture' but in the mocrochosm of what is represented on a 6 by 4 board, we really dont care about all that. you can represent any number of skirmishes, scouting/recon missions, desperate last stands, with any number of attacks and counter attacks by any side during the early/mid or late war periods. Just like in 40k, 'you will not be missed' your germans will never 'win' the second world war, but you can 'win' those small tactical victories, and hold off those pesky russians for one more day. Within the war, it mwans nothing. To you, its still a vital battle. i suppose what im trying to say dont feel like you have to follow a script; or rather, dont let the pre-written script of ww2 deter you from thinking you cant have a say in it. dont exclude yourself from the joys of wargaming within a certain period of history-like i said, these battles wont change the war, but it doesnt change their relevance.

regarding infinity - its a great game. its almost brilliant. it has some flaws - the background isnt fully depeloped (its there, but its 'young', and nowhere near the scale of GW or PPs IPs) but its still solid. Big issues for me were (a) for a game with such a brilliant rules set, the presentation of said rules is godawful. Now, fair enough, its an english translation of the original spanish, but i found the layout and presentation to be nothing short of godawful. you genuinely have to dig through walls of needless (and needlessly small!) text, which is poorly written in a lot of places and the index isnt of much use half the time either! it makes the game come across as vastly more cluttered, clunky, and disorganised than it really is. If you can work through the appalling layout, you will realise it is one of the finest, smooth, and well flowing games out there - the rulebook just doesnt do it justice! My second problem (b) is this. its a small sccale skirmish game with about 10 doods per side. cool. but it strikes me as beyond ridiculous that they have a resurrected sun tsu, william wallace, joan of arc, saladin etc walking around the place, being generals of whole armies and getting involved in these wee warbands. personal gripe, easily solved with not bothering with 'names'.

Anyone know how old Infinity is? I think its been out since 2007? And its in its second edition, correct?

In my area especially friends etc. GW has pretty much died a death. No one plays any more.

Everyone eBay`d their forces and started collecting warmahordes.
Did also play malifaux but it also died off and even with 2nd the rules are not to anyone`s taste and the plastics aren't well received by me or friends.

Flames of War is pretty popular as well but its all Warmahordes pretty much week by week

I've never, in real life, even met someone who has played any of the non-GW games that the internet talks about.

Grndhog89 wrote:
Anyone know how old Infinity is? I think its been out since 2007? And its in its second edition, correct?

2005 I think, I remember buying my first model back in '06.

Deadnight wrote:
Big issues for me were (a) for a game with such a brilliant rules set, the presentation of said rules is godawful. Now, fair enough, its an english translation of the original spanish, but i found the layout and presentation to be nothing short of godawful. you genuinely have to dig through walls of needless (and needlessly small!) text, which is poorly written in a lot of places and the index isnt of much use half the time either! it makes the game come across as vastly more cluttered, clunky, and disorganised than it really is. If you can work through the appalling layout, you will realise it is one of the finest, smooth, and well flowing games out there - the rulebook just doesnt do it justice!

I'm not even sure why there is a physical rulebook. Right now it's nearly useless unless you are buying it for fluff/art. If you want rules the wiki is much faster to reference without the frustrating layout. If you want an army list or unit profiles you use the free army builders. I think Corvus Belli should just use the wiki and pdfs as a living rulebook and ditch the idea of traditional rulebooks. If people want flavor for the game CB can dump that stuff in a dedicated art/fluff book.

They're just about to release an artbook (for general sale) for Infinity.

Agreed on the only reason to buy the hardcovers, though. Fluff and art. Even the English language editor had issues with it (stuff got changed back AFTER he suggested how it should be written for native English speakers).

I usually carry the fan edit with me in a folder (not everywhere I game has access to a cell signal or internet) along with printed copies of the army lists.

As for the army builders - they're fine if you use an iOS or android device (windows phone, here) and the "official" builder is full of bugs and nowhere near as good as the previous version.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
I've never, in real life, even met someone who has played any of the non-GW games that the internet talks about.

Which is probably not all that uncommon. GW games have that critical mass thing going where they're the most commonly played games and even still in a lot of places the only played games.

Personally, I have to really search for people playing GW games outside of my group. When my friend and I go to the FLGS to have a game, we'll be playing 40k, and some other people might be painting their armies, but other games being played are either Flames of War, Warmachine/Hordes, Dystopian Wars or some PnP RPG. I've seen more people playing Connect 4 in my FLGS than I've seen playing GW games.

My personal group only really plays 40k, but is very slowly getting into Infinity and a couple of them want to get into Flames of War.

The more Infinity converts the better! It is a gem of a game.

I also want to break into Dropzone Commander, but that's going to take time, since I've only just managed to get two of them to get decent sized Infinity armies.

Though I could get the FoW guys into it, since it's still doing the small scale thing but sci fi.

Except that FoW is 15mm and DZC is 10mm.

It's the difference between 1/100 and 1/144.

Or to put it another way, between epic and FoW.

Whilst some terrain would transfer across, much wouldn't. Especially seeing that FoW is distinctly set in a past time period.

It's not Wierd War with martians.

 chromedog wrote:
Except that FoW is 15mm and DZC is 10mm.

It's the difference between 1/100 and 1/144.

Or to put it another way, between epic and FoW.

Whilst some terrain would transfer across, much wouldn't. Especially seeing that FoW is distinctly set in a past time period.

It's not Wierd War with martians.

I think he means the scale of the miniatures, and of the conflict itself - stands of infantry, platoons of vehicles, etc.

Exactly. The same guys looking at FoW are the same guys that were all over Epic, a 6mm game. It's not the scale of the miniatures, it's the scale of the engagements.

Dropzone Commander at least would be a better sell to them since it's still sci fi, and the new starter comes with a decent sized board full of city terrain.

Does anyone know if there's some sort of trial version of Dropzone Commander available? Or a beta floating around the net? I'm just not up for buying the rules untested.

I'm sure an FLGS would give a demo.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
I've never, in real life, even met someone who has played any of the non-GW games that the internet talks about.

I find this statement staggering, and almost want to call BS. While GW is a popular game, stores do sell other things and there are people that will play it.

 Alfndrate wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
I've never, in real life, even met someone who has played any of the non-GW games that the internet talks about.

I find this statement staggering, and almost want to call BS. While GW is a popular game, stores do sell other things and there are people that will play it.

Don't think too hard about it. Like some other Dakkaites, DarknessEternal is prone to hyperbole and overstatement.

Still, if one lives in a relatively small town, never attends conventions, and only plays at a GW store or in a particularly focused FLGS, it's entirely possible to never meet any non-GW miniatures gamers.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
I've never, in real life, even met someone who has played any of the non-GW games that the internet talks about.

Variety is the spice of life. They day you meet someone who plays another game, and let them demo it for you, it'll be like Dorothy waking up in full color Oz.

Most of the Warmachine players I have met were old 40k players who had a story something like " I used to play X army until it got nerfed".

They were all powergaming d-bags.


There are a lot of flames of war players near me.

 AntomanElven wrote:
Most of the Warmachine players I have met were old 40k players who had a story something like " I used to play X army until it got nerfed".

They were all powergaming d-bags.

.

to be fair, its a valid reason as anything else. i enjoy the background and the modelling, but i also want to be able to play, and most importantly, enjoy the game. i find it hard to do that if my army is handicapped against all others.

Question though: why 'powergaming douchebags'. they're not necessarily the same thing - you can play competitvely and be a great guy, and you can not, and be a nob.

Well I regularly play a SoB army (and I don't even use allies), so I know how handicapped some can be.

I mainly play casual matches, I don't care if I lose because I don't associate with those manchildren who "must win every battle"

These people definitely fit into the powergaming cliche though.

I stopped playing only 40k when my local GW where I went to play closed down. I instead started going to the local comic book store. The scene for all these other games was so nice an healthy, I figured WM/H was something that had always interested me. Now I don't even take my 40k with me to the lgs, only wm/h

My Friends and i have been playing 40k since we were kids but these days its just got to stale and expensive we have moved on to the Batman Miniatures Game its a small scale skirmish game and the models are truely beautiful anyway its only small scale at the moment but with Arkham origins and the new Batman film it has loads of potential

At my club Malifaux is quite popular.

Personally I've been intersted in starting WM with a scyrah army.

One of the reasons WM/H attracts those that are interesting in playing to win is that the rules are robust enough to support it. You can take every faction and make a competitive list or a casual list.

Keeping the thread alive.

I will soon be attempting to 'inceptionate' (inceptionize?) SAGA into the local Warmachine group at a nearby store. With luck, the similarities between the two games will bring some fo the Warmahordes players into the Historicals fold.

The early medieval period is really good for wargaming as well. With the lack of documentation it's the perfect place to invent your own "war duke" and his band of warriors.

To get back to the OP, part of the problem with non-GW games growing so much is that it's not really the growth of a small handful of options but the growth of many options. More options are good, but I'm finding that the player base of those playing non-GW games can be a bit fragmented in terms of options.

Fortunately the cost of the options being lower in many cases means that people can afford to play and collect many games and many lines of miniatures rather than just having a 40k army.

The internet is also helping big time. If you live in a major urban centre, there's probably some means of either targeted searches, face book groups, company forums, etc., that will allow you to find other interested parties in your location, even for the most obscure title.

frozenwastes wrote:
To get back to the OP, part of the problem with non-GW games growing so much is that it's not really the growth of a small handful of options but the growth of many options. More options are good, but I'm finding that the player base of those playing non-GW games can be a bit fragmented in terms of options.

It really isn't much different than it was before. There have always been a good number of non-GW games, and it's always fallen to fans of those games to gather their own player base. Infinity, WM, and FoW have held on much better than most competing-with-GW games did in the 90's and early '00's, but aside from them, the dynamic is pretty much the same. If you play small games, you are still taking a gamble as to how long they will last, and committing to extra work to find or build a playerbase.

Crimson-King2120 wrote:My Friends and i have been playing 40k since we were kids but these days its just got to stale and expensive we have moved on to the Batman Miniatures Game its a small scale skirmish game and the models are truely beautiful anyway its only small scale at the moment but with Arkham origins and the new Batman film it has loads of potential

Interesting that you would choose Batman. We (our club) looked at it briefly, but were turned off by the GW-ish sticker price for minis. My feeling is that without a mass of people who have been conditioned to GW pricing, the Batman game would never have gotten off the ground.

 Eilif wrote:

It really isn't much different than it was before. There have always been a good number of non-GW games, and it's always fallen to fans of those games to gather their own player base. Infinity, WM, and FoW have held on much better than most competing-with-GW games did in the 90's and early '00's, but aside from them, the dynamic is pretty much the same. If you play small games, you are still taking a gamble as to how long they will last, and committing to extra work to find or build a playerbase.

We're seeing something different now, I think. Both WM/H and FOW are over a decade old by now, and they have strong presences all over the globe. Infinity is 8 years old and seems to be hanging on, even if they aren't as big as the two aforementioned ones. In the old days, Warzone (the big 90s contender) died after a mere 5 when Target Games went under (I am not really counting Excelsior's effort after 2000), and Confrontation (the big noughties contender) started floundering when Rackham started their slide in 2007-2008. While the dead ones still have their fans they, much like Epic, didn't make it as broad market games.

It remains to be seen whether the newer companies - Wyrd, Spartan, etc - manage to keep expanding and pushing out new material and make it to the stage PP and BF are now, but you're not making much of a gamble if you want to play Flames of War or Warmachine these days. They're here to stay, I think.

The age of GW's competitors dying off because they can't compete is gone. Very few of the miniature companies that have popped up over the last ten years are gone.

And Warzone only died because other non-miniature related divisions of Target lost too much money. As for Rackham, I'm guessing it was the complete abandonment of their core market by switching to prepainted plastics that might have had something to do with it.

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:

 Eilif wrote:

It really isn't much different than it was before. There have always been a good number of non-GW games, and it's always fallen to fans of those games to gather their own player base. Infinity, WM, and FoW have held on much better than most competing-with-GW games did in the 90's and early '00's, but aside from them, the dynamic is pretty much the same. If you play small games, you are still taking a gamble as to how long they will last, and committing to extra work to find or build a playerbase.

We're seeing something different now, I think. Both WM/H and FOW are over a decade old by now, and they have strong presences all over the globe. Infinity is 8 years old and seems to be hanging on, even if they aren't as big as the two aforementioned ones. In the old days, Warzone (the big 90s contender) died after a mere 5 when Target Games went under (I am not really counting Excelsior's effort after 2000), and Confrontation (the big noughties contender) started floundering when Rackham started their slide in 2007-2008. While the dead ones still have their fans they, much like Epic, didn't make it as broad market games.

It remains to be seen whether the newer companies - Wyrd, Spartan, etc - manage to keep expanding and pushing out new material and make it to the stage PP and BF are now, but you're not making much of a gamble if you want to play Flames of War or Warmachine these days. They're here to stay, I think.

I agree about WM, FoW and possibly infinity. I don't consider them to be "small" games anymore in terms of their fanbase and distribution. The field has changed in that there are a few more games with longevity. However, for everything else, it's still on the player to create a playerbase, and for most, it's still a gamble as to how long they will exist.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 frozenwastes wrote:
The age of GW's competitors dying off because they can't compete is gone. Very few of the miniature companies that have popped up over the last ten years are gone.

But are those games thriving in a way that would allow a player to be able to easily find opponents and count on the games being regularly updated? I think not.
These smaller companies seem to be very good at finding niches within niches, but I don't see much sign of them sustaining growth like WM, FoW and Infinity. I really hope I'm wrong about this, and if more players are willing to undertake the efforts required to actively play small games things could change. However at this point I still think it's buyer be-aware (see what I did there....) of the limitations of small games.

 Eilif wrote:

I agree about WM, FoW and possibly infinity. I don't consider them to be "small" games anymore in terms of their fanbase and distribution. The field has changed in that there are a few more games with longevity. However, for everything else, it's still on the player to create a playerbase, and for most, it's still a gamble as to how long they will exist.

Looking closer at what I have of industry numbers and the ever helpful google trends search, I think Fow and WMH are by now extremely well established - it would be a real surprise if any of them disappeared in the next decade. Infinity is not quite there yet. it is growing, but as far as I can tell it has not surpassed Malifaux, for example (which is also growing).

There are, naturally enough, enormous local differences. In my dear old Norway, for example, only WMH, 40k and WHFB can easily muster enough bodies to hold tourneys that get over 20 people, for example. FoW has not taken off, Dystopian Wars had a brief spike followed by tumbleweeds, and Infinity and Malifaux remain niche games.

 Eilif wrote:


But are those games thriving in a way that would allow a player to be able to easily find opponents and count on the games being regularly updated? I think not.
These smaller companies seem to be very good at finding niches within niches, but I don't see much sign of them sustaining growth like WM, FoW and Infinity. I really hope I'm wrong about this, and if more players are willing to undertake the efforts required to actively play small games things could change. However at this point I still think it's buyer be-aware (see what I did there....) of the limitations of small games.

A lot of those games are scaled such that a player can easily buy and run 2+ factions, so that finding an opponent is just a case of finding someone with an interest in it and time, with no financial buy in. It seems to happen fairly often at my local club. Particularly skirmish games with 4-10 models each, means you can easily have 2 players worth of stuff + rules for under $100.

Herzlos wrote:

A lot of those games are scaled such that a player can easily buy and run 2+ factions, so that finding an opponent is just a case of finding someone with an interest in it and time, with no financial buy in. It seems to happen fairly often at my local club. Particularly skirmish games with 4-10 models each, means you can easily have 2 players worth of stuff + rules for under $100.

That's a good point. My club mostly plays indie skirmish warband-size games. It allows members to buy-in with only a small investment, especially since the games we play are almost all not tied to a specific miniature line.

I would say there are strong communities for a variety of games in the Lexington Kentucky area.

We have 2 stores that really bring in communities, the Rusty Scabbard and the Battleforge. The Rusty Scabbard has a hardcore playerbase of 40k, warmasomething, fantasy, X Wing, Magic, and RPG' as well as board game nights.

The Battleforge has 40k, Fantasy, Infinity, Flames of War, Bolt Action, maulifaux, RPG's, other historical that I'm not sure the name of, and I think I've seen war machine there too.

We also have a GW that somehow manages to keep a player base for 40k (poor gal running the joint has a bit of a fan club) and from what I've been told, there are a couple of independent gamers clubs in the area too, with large playerbases. No idea why we have such a large community, guess there's nothing better to do.

At the new FLGS in my area, Warmachine maulfaux are starting off huge with the obvious 40k Following.

Eilif wrote:
But are those games thriving in a way that would allow a player to be able to easily find opponents and count on the games being regularly updated? I think not.

I'm really not sure at what size we are talking about things now. We have a new version of Malifaux coming out and Infinity has had several expansions and whatnot. Or are those too big? Small labour-of-love rulesets seem to get updated more frequently than for profit ones, so the truly small don't have the update problems.

As for finding opponents, I've never had a problem thanks to the internet. When i was thinking of getting into Kings of War, I went to Mantic's forums and searched for the names of nearby towns and cities. I got in contact with a player and tried things out. Turned out the game wasn't for me, but it only took joining one forum, doing one search and sending a private message.

On top of that, you also have the approach of people supplying both sides and essentially running participation games that people have already mentioned. I can't think of a single rules set that I haven't been able to find a player for when I've wanted to play them.

But if someone wants to count on just showing up at a local store and happening to bump into someone who also has an army and just showed up, yeah, then these games definitely take more leg work.

Since the new store over by my job has opened ive seen people play 40k twice in three months every time im there its warmachine or MTG. 40k looks to have burnt out a little by me people mostly play at home or with there little groups. Ive went over into warmachine do to the price and the rules are just awsome! Ive always been a fan of converting minis and i think thats the only reason i hold onto 40k. I thought it was going to bug me with warmahorde (not being able to convert heavily) but it hasnt. Im glad to play the models the way they are, the stats cards help bring them to life. In a month of being into the game price wise ive been able to start almost every faction in warmachine. I still have RET and Cyrx to go then i will have all the factions started. What i also love is that every faction can be played and not get rolled all over by the faction that just got updated or a new mini came out for them. The two player set is cheap and is such a GREAT deal. The only grip i have is the casting i had a ton of knots and mold lines.

All of the below = my anecdotal observation, YMMV clearly.

WM/H has a very healthy presence in New England (actually, pretty much everywhere on the eastern seaboard i've been). From my anecdotal experience, give or take, less or more

40K has a very healthy presence, with Fantasy somewhat less so.

Infinity has pockets here and there.

Flames of War i know a few clubs / stores its popular with, but i'd say its a bit rarer. Most of the guys that i know that are still into it play in home leagues / basement crews.

Malifaux is about on par with Inifinity, Flames of war. It's played, just not something you see often in the local shop.

Out here in New Brunswick we have a fair mixture of games, but resolved most of our conflicts by having separated gaming nights (we have a really small store)

1. 40k
2. Warmachine/Hordes
3. X-Wing
4. Flames of War
5. Malifaux/Dust Warfare/Warhammer Fantasy all tied up
everything else is just groups of 2 or 3 pers.

The funny part is how my buddy and I will soon be playing 40K again, but with the 2nd edition rules. GW models are absolutely great, but their current rules really don't hold much over all the competitors out there. They just have tons of inertia behind them from all the years they were the juggernaut of the industry.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
The funny part is how my buddy and I will soon be playing 40K again, but with the 2nd edition rules. GW models are absolutely great, but their current rules really don't hold much over all the competitors out there. They just have tons of inertia behind them from all the years they were the juggernaut of the industry.

looking at the rules, I get the distinct feel that the way the game runs is to provide players with a heck of a lot of dice to roll at the start. Once the first buckets are rolled, at least to my experience, the game quickly shrinks from a war to a skirmish.....

I'm not sure how I feel about this. On the one hand it keeps games moving, and lets the turns rotate faster as patience starts to wear............