I'm not sure I'm allowed to post point-cost about the centurions yet so I'll use substitute. The info is taken from BoLS latest forum (somebody got their 'dex early):

A 3 man Devastator centurion with 3 TLLC and 3 MLs cost the same as a stock LR. They have 2 wounds per model, T5, S5 and the rest of their stats are the same as a regular marine squad (there is a srgt in the unit with +1A and +1Ld). For the cost of a PF (-5pts) you can split fire the srgt.

To get the same amount of guns with regular devastators you would need 2 squads, one with 3 MLs, the other with 3 LCs, you get 10 wounds but no TL or T bump or 2+ save etc... And it only costs 5pts less than the Centurions above.

Regardless of whether you like the model or not I think the Centurions would make a great fire-base, less prone to getting shredded by Hellturkeys or blast weapons (with proper spacing). I can see 2 other powerful upgrades: ADL with quad-gun and the Imperial Fist chapter trait (I know from playing BT termies that TH on a quad-gun is deadly to incoming aircraft), or an allied DA libby with PFG for prescience and a 4++; or both!

The grav cannons upgrade could be horrifically deadly to MEQs or TEQs but beyond that it starts getting situational. If you're facing Daemons the Centurions will be pretty useless as the flying DPs can most likely stay out of the Centurions range and they can't hurt anything without an armor save...

Any thoughts on this?

I think LC versions will beat out LC Devs most of the time, thanks to mobility and ignoring night fighting.

For pure LC goodness however, my money is on Predators as a better value.

However my guess is the majority of Cents will be using Grav Cannons, not LCs.

I need 6 Grav cannons... but I only have one on sprew...

FFFFUUUUUUUUUU--

 Goat wrote:
I need 6 Grav cannons... but I only have one on sprew...

FFFFUUUUUUUUUU--

LOL, but seriously, isn't the Grav Cannon range quite a bit shorter? I know it doesn't just shoot once, but still... also aren't grav cannons terrible against things with low armor saves? I haven't run any numbers but that's what people have been saying.

My issue with Predators in general is that it's easy for a smart opponent to stay out of its LoS, and as soon as it moves (besides pivoting) it loses precious shots...

Does the box really only come with 1 grav cannon?

Kisada II wrote:
Does the box really only come with 1 grav cannon?

The full sprue pictures are on GW's site. It looks like there are 3, but sometimes it's hard to tell what parts are used for what. The siege drill bits look similar. We''l know better once the box and instructions and in out hands.

I was under the impression that you only took 1 grav-cannon + 1 grav-amp per centurion, meaning there will only be 3 grav-cannons per box.....could be wrong though

I was thinking about this unit last night, and thought that while it's expensive, adding a Tau buff commander could be really nasty. A majority T5 unit with 3 LC and 3 ML all rerolling to hit, ignoring cover, and with Tank / Monster Hunter. Plus potentially a couple 4++ drones to eat low AP weapons.

Although the same could be said for the Grav Cannons, getting a ton of shots that reroll to hit and to wound with ignores cover and AP2 would be pretty nasty as well, even with the shorter range.

The unit might be interesting, basically marine 'broadsides', and their cost isn't bad. I might use some if I can come up with some alternate models (I do have standards), thinking about modified Sentinels ( with contemptor arms or something) or maybe some other Mecha from other game systems.
I'll have to think about it some more, I do like Devs. Combat squading them in some missions is very handy though.

I think throwing them in a Skyshield Landing pad sounds like fun. T5, 2W, 2+, 4++ and decent LoS to boot. Throw in IH Chapter tactic to give IWND to the Character and Feel No Pain and you may have a formidable firing platform with either the LC/ML or Grav Cannon/ML.

 NickTheButcher wrote:
I think throwing them in a Skyshield Landing pad sounds like fun. T5, 2W, 2+, 4++ and decent LoS to boot. Throw in IH Chapter tactic to give IWND to the Character and Feel No Pain and you may have a formidable firing platform with either the LC/ML or Grav Cannon/ML.

This.

Or add tigurius for perfect timing and precognition to tank wounds.

BTW isn't the centurion ML actually a cyclone ML? So really it would be 6 ML's worth of shooting.

I really do like the idea of the unit.

It's a standard ML.

Super Newb wrote:

 Goat wrote:
I need 6 Grav cannons... but I only have one on sprew...

FFFFUUUUUUUUUU--

LOL, but seriously, isn't the Grav Cannon range quite a bit shorter? I know it doesn't just shoot once, but still... also aren't grav cannons terrible against things with low armor saves? I haven't run any numbers but that's what people have been saying.

Cents get to reroll wounds with grav amps so grav cannons remain passable against all targets and hyper lethal against 4+ and better, if that rumor was correct anyway.

What do grav guns do against tanks? Just curious since traditionally a dev with LCs job was AT. Is there a way to give them skyfire or intercept?

Col. Dash wrote:
What do grav guns do against tanks? Just curious since traditionally a dev with LCs job was AT. Is there a way to give them skyfire or intercept?

The rumors I have seen are: You roll a D6 for each hit, on a roll of 6 the vehicle loses a hull point and is immediately immobilized (DIE WAVE SERPENTS!) .

There does not appear to be a way to grant Skyfire or Interceptor to Centurions, unless you get the Big Guns Never Tire mission AND a mysterious objective that rolls up as a Skyfire Nexus

I really hope these Centurions make an appearance around here. I think they would be fun to fight against, and would give a boost to the vanilla codex.

I personally am not a huge fan of them, but I am hoping that they will make a dent in Wave Serpent spam. I'm still unsure if the grav amp allows them to re-roll their damage against vehicles. If it does, it will make them pretty good at double immobilizing things, which would be awesome.

Scouting Centurions in a LR for the win!!!!

 Hulksmash wrote:
Scouting Centurions in a LR for the win!!!!

As far as I can see only White Scars can achieve this though, and they are an army that really has no need for Centurions.

Well, Serpents could stay outside the range of grav cannons and they have have holofields.

MadmanMSU wrote:
I really hope these Centurions make an appearance around here. I think they would be fun to fight against, and would give a boost to the vanilla codex.

I personally am not a huge fan of them, but I am hoping that they will make a dent in Wave Serpent spam. I'm still unsure if the grav amp allows them to re-roll their damage against vehicles. If it does, it will make them pretty good at double immobilizing things, which would be awesome.

If anything makes a dent in Wave Serpent spam it will be Stalkers, not Centurions. Cheap, high rate of fire, and very useful against CronAir/Turkeys as well as Skimmers of all types.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Grav cannons don't cause a glancing or penetrating hit so vehicles can't take a cover or invo save

Any time a vehicle takes a 2nd immobilized result it's wrecked.

So 12 gravcannon hits should wreck a wave serpent.

Thats kind of what I was thinking. I hope grav cannon are not only available with Cents though, I hate the models.

 schadenfreude wrote:
Grav cannons don't cause a glancing or penetrating hit so vehicles can't take a cover or invo save

Would have to check that.

 schadenfreude wrote:
Any time a vehicle takes a 2nd immobilized result it's wrecked.

Not quite, that was 5th edition. If an immobilized vehicle suffers another immobilized result now it loses an additional Hull Point, so while your assertion stands for vehicles with 3HP or less, it's not true for anything with 4HP or more.

 schadenfreude wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong.

Grav cannons don't cause a glancing or penetrating hit so vehicles can't take a cover or invo save

Any time a vehicle takes a 2nd immobilized result it's wrecked.

So 12 gravcannon hits should wreck a wave serpent.

Yeah, but 3 Centurions with 3 grav cannons are 250 pts and grav cannons have rather short range (24''). Serpents can manage to stay outside of range if needed.

MadmanMSU wrote:
I really hope these Centurions make an appearance around here. I think they would be fun to fight against, and would give a boost to the vanilla codex.

I personally am not a huge fan of them, but I am hoping that they will make a dent in Wave Serpent spam. I'm still unsure if the grav amp allows them to re-roll their damage against vehicles. If it does, it will make them pretty good at double immobilizing things, which would be awesome.

I can confirm now that I have the codex that the re-rolls from the Grav Amp DO work when determining it's effects on a vehicle.

 NickTheButcher wrote:

MadmanMSU wrote:
I really hope these Centurions make an appearance around here. I think they would be fun to fight against, and would give a boost to the vanilla codex.

I personally am not a huge fan of them, but I am hoping that they will make a dent in Wave Serpent spam. I'm still unsure if the grav amp allows them to re-roll their damage against vehicles. If it does, it will make them pretty good at double immobilizing things, which would be awesome.

I can confirm now that I have the codex that the re-rolls from the Grav Amp DO work when determining it's effects on a vehicle.

Ouch so 7 hits should wreck a 3hp target and 10 hits should wreck a 4hp target

5 shots each per centurian. Looks like they tear up vehicles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong.

Grav cannons don't cause a glancing or penetrating hit so vehicles can't take a cover or invo save

Any time a vehicle takes a 2nd immobilized result it's wrecked.

So 12 gravcannon hits should wreck a wave serpent.

Yeah, but 3 Centurions with 3 grav cannons are 250 pts and grav cannons have rather short range (24''). Serpents can manage to stay outside of range if needed.

Threat range is 30"

shurcat range is 24"

scatterlaser range is 36", but the window to shoot in is closer to 2 or 3 " rather than 6" because the scatter laser is mounted on the rear turret.

The window is small and centurians are going to be in the vanguard. It's not impossible, but it will require dedicating the wave serpent to shooting the centurians. There might also be a tau or IG gunline behind the centurians.

They are still fairly vulnerable units, even with T5 and 2W. If you don't need allies for something else and you are using some centurion devastators then a DA prescience libby with power field generator should be a great help.

I'd run a squad equipped with grav cannons and missile launchers. This way the squad will gain the most benefit from prescience, and being able to re-roll dice to hit and wound with the grav cannons should make them pretty effective.

The libby will sit in the middle of the squad, giving the centurions the important 4++ save (Which they will need, as grav cannon range of 24 dictates they cannot sit in cover all day).

 scrunty wrote:
I was under the impression that you only took 1 grav-cannon + 1 grav-amp per centurion, meaning there will only be 3 grav-cannons per box.....could be wrong though

There are indeed three grav cannons and three grav amps in the box.

Looky Likey wrote:

 scrunty wrote:
I was under the impression that you only took 1 grav-cannon + 1 grav-amp per centurion, meaning there will only be 3 grav-cannons per box.....could be wrong though

There are indeed three grav cannons and three grav amps in the box.

Cheers for that. Was about to have a serious head scratching moment thinking "Another way for GW to get money out of us? Surely not."

Thanks for clearing that up.

I will also point out that the sergeant upgrade I feel is pretty impressive.

Night fight and split fire will(IMO) give them a lot more tactical versatility.

In addition upgrades are on a per model basis, so for example I could give the sergeant TL lascannon and missile launcher, while the other two have grav amps. Maximize the effects of any buffs and allows him to take advantage of tank hunter(If you are an imperial fist)

This will allow me to try and take on two enemies at once, especially factoring in the shorter range of the grav guns, I see something like this being helpful. Since for a majority of targets more than two grav cannons will probably be overkill.

10 shots
6.6 hits
Against armor 3+ most likely 5ish wounds
Against 2+ probably 6 wounds

That is before factoring in things like the missile launcher. If you prescience the squad that makes it even more of a certainty.

I'm still trying to determine if even upgrading the Centurians with Grav or Lascannons is even worth it. Initially, it appears I can get both of those weapons on less costly platforms. Ultimately, a unit of 3 models pushing 300 points seems awfully expensive. I'm debating if just using the stock Centurian has any value.

I think they could make a good all rounder deathstar unit for middle board control.

Though it may be expensive, a 5 men Dev Cents all with Grav Cannon backed up by a Divination psyker (Tigurius for instance) could get ignore cover, or 4++ and, of course, TL.

Prescience + Grav Amp make them ok against flyers (even AV 12 as AV doesn't matter), and they are already good against ground targets (either because of the Grav special rule or the VoF).

Downsides have already been exposed : not very mobile unit, 24'' range, and very costy (90pts per model vith ML and Grav, for a total of 615 pts with the Tigurius upgrade)

I think I may try this... I just have to figure out what units I have to use to support them

With grav cannons they will murder anything they get near, bar light infantry.

So to me the question is: How do I get my cent devs close to the action, and how do I avoid the opponent focus his entire arsenal of AT weapons on them?

Waaargh wrote:
With grav cannons they will murder anything they get near, bar light infantry.

So to me the question is: How do I get my cent devs close to the action, and how do I avoid the opponent focus his entire arsenal of AT weapons on them?

Run something he has to target more ie a vindicator or 2?


On a side note I haven't looked at the new codex yet but what do they come standard equipped with?

I would run the 6 of them with Grav Cannon's and Hurricane Bolters. That is 30 Grav shots and 18/36 Bolter Shots. I think that will kill hard and soft targets. Then you add a tankie IC and treat the unit like old Nob Bikers, using the 2+ Look Out Sir to move wounds around the unit. Is their anything in the rules that would prevent the player from taking all of the Devs down to 1w each before letting them die?

Waaargh wrote:
With grav cannons they will murder anything they get near, bar light infantry.

So to me the question is: How do I get my cent devs close to the action, and how do I avoid the opponent focus his entire arsenal of AT weapons on them?

I think grav cents are the worst build. 24" range and SnP means you cannot ever run or over watch. Max move 6" per turn if you're not crossing terrain which you need since they don't have an invuln.

They'll barely scratch flesh hounds, seekers, or a screamer star before they get bogged down and chewed up. Wraithknights can bounce around them all day with ID shots. When you get close to a serpent they can move up 6" dump wraithguard out 6" and shoot 12" with ID cannons. You'll never get in range of an IA riptide, fire warriors can back up and fire every turn with better range. They won't hurt kroot. They won't hurt cultists zombies or spawn.

They have too many drawbacks for TAC lists. Leave gravs for the bikes. Take cents with lascannons missile launchers and tank hunters and they will pop a vehicle every turn from a safe distance.

My impression of this unit is that it's just straight-up terrible. For the cost, there are other options which do the same either for a lower cost or which is more resilient. One thing which can be said for sure is that you will want to get the Omniscope upgrade so that you don't have almost 300 pts of shooting unable to contribute for a turn and because they are overkill against most targets so you want the Split Fire.

3 Centurions with Omniscope (200)

Some people have been saying that the way to run them is with a lascannon and missile launcher. This gives you a S&P AT unit with good resilience.

1 Centurion with Lascannon and Missile Launcher (90)

Predator with Lascannon Sponsons (115)

Both are good against vehicles. The Centurion has 1 S8 and 1 TL S9 shot versus the Predator's 2 S7 and 2 S9 shots. The Predator brings about twice the firepower for another 25pts (28%). As to which is more resilient, it's the model which doesn't fear a Guardsman squad. I think the Centurion loses out here. If you want to run an AT Centurion, then you'd probably want to make it the sergeant with Omniscope so that the unit doesn't overkill vehicles. As others have noted, a completely kitted AT unit is 290 pts.

Naked, they're about the same cost as a Razorback but get a little more firepower. The problem with kitting these guys for AI however is that it's short-ranged and slow when compared to vehicles and most armies are bringing plasma with them. I don't know how good the grav weapons really are, but I can tell you that the Centurions won't last long against plasma so it won't matter. The point that they can take LR dedicated transport is only useful if you're tight on HS options, and if you actually mount them that way them then you have to disembark on the first turn or lost a round of shooting with an almost 300 pt unit. You're looking at over 500 pts for Centurions and a Land Raider, so it's a pretty big investment to not be shooting for a turn.

So I'm not sure what the solution is here. Perhaps you could take a sergeant with Omniscope, Missile Launcher and TL Lascannon then kit the other two for AI with either heavy bolters or grav cannons. If you are against IG, then you could try to shoot the grav cannons at vehicles or something and I think an option like that will exist against most armies. I just think the entire unit is terribly subpar and the points are better spent elsewhere because this unit doesn't seem really standout at any one thing.

EDIT: BronzeJon caught me with the wrong price for the AT Centurion.

Except for medium range, nothing has as much destructive power as the grav cannon cent devs. Three cents fire off 15 shots, and they get to re-roll wounds or failed 6's to damage vehicles. Look at how a TL LC and ML model will handle heavy armour in comparison, and as shown above a pred will do a better job of killing tanks (as will drop podding melta units).

 Jrandom wrote:
I would run the 6 of them with Grav Cannon's and Hurricane Bolters. That is 30 Grav shots and 18/36 Bolter Shots. I think that will kill hard and soft targets. Then you add a tankie IC and treat the unit like old Nob Bikers, using the 2+ Look Out Sir to move wounds around the unit. Is their anything in the rules that would prevent the player from taking all of the Devs down to 1w each before letting them die?

Sounds like a plan of a sort.

There is nothing in the rules that prevent you doing exactly that, except placement. LoS hits go to the nearest model to the dodging character.

Where are you getting 120 for one dev cent?

 hyv3mynd wrote:
I think grav cents are the worst build. 24" range and SnP means you cannot ever run or over watch. Max move 6" per turn if you're not crossing terrain which you need since they don't have an invuln.

They'll barely scratch flesh hounds, seekers, or a screamer star before they get bogged down and chewed up. Wraithknights can bounce around them all day with ID shots. When you get close to a serpent they can move up 6" dump wraithguard out 6" and shoot 12" with ID cannons. You'll never get in range of an IA riptide, fire warriors can back up and fire every turn with better range. They won't hurt kroot. They won't hurt cultists zombies or spawn.

They have too many drawbacks for TAC lists. Leave gravs for the bikes. Take cents with lascannons missile launchers and tank hunters and they will pop a vehicle every turn from a safe distance.

Grav weapons are obviously not meant to be deployed against light targets, the same way melta weapons are not meant so be used against hordes or flamers meant to be used against AV. In an TAC tournament list you should be prepared for those kind of targets with a different solution. What grav gives you is short range anti-MC tech, which handily can also be used against heavy infantry and vehicles.

I think the ML/LC is the way to go. It provides some good cover fire for your army.

I view it as taking a squad of 3 dreads with TL LC/MLs, but instead of costing 130+ points each, they are appropriately costed.

Are they "OMFG ZAWSOME"? No. They are decent, and can provide a nice compliment to the right army.

To use the gravs, you are gonna need a land raider I think. These guys are going to get the death company treatment by competent foes. And that treatment is being shot off the table.

The 48" guns gives them the best shot, but Eldar can trivially get all kinds of 36" guns within range quickly. And these guys make your force that much smaller. Properly equipped, they are a staggering 46.6 pts per wound. No invuln save.

I don't know if Eldar have a way to get ignores cover on a Wraithknight, but these things are begging to be zorfed by heavy d cannons.

Also if you do the math for two squads of devastators with 3 lascannons and 3 missile launchers they are around 205 points. Add in the fact that they are not twin-linked lascannons on a turkey vulnerable platform and the dev cents are not looking as bad

Sure it is 6 wounds instead of 10 but it takes up one slot (more room for yummy TFC)

My one problem with them is this: A single Vindicator shot (Or Equivalent) can wipe out an entire squad of these brutes with ease. At 60-100 points per model, they have a certain Achilles heel for S10 AP2. Admittedly, most things are vulnerable to S10 AP2 weapons, but Centurions especially due to their lack of invuln and difficulty with Transports. Cover helps, but that's a 4+ or 5+ usually, not 2+. The 'Hard Counter,' therefore, seems to be not too hard to find in most armies. (TWC with Thunder Hammers, Biker Boss with Power Klaw (Attached to Biker Nobz, of course,) Flyrants/Daemon Princes (Smash Attacks,) the aforementioned Vindicator, Orbital Bombardment, Doom Scythes especially, etc...)

I realize you won't encounter these things every game, they just seem like easy ways to kill your opponents 200-600 point Death Star.

 Leth wrote:
Also if you do the math for two squads of devastators with 3 lascannons and 3 missile launchers they are around 205 points. Add in the fact that they are not twin-linked lascannons on a turkey vulnerable platform and the dev cents are not looking as bad

Sure it is 6 wounds instead of 10 but it takes up one slot (more room for yummy TFC)

I agree, but the whole thing just seems really weak compared to Eldar S6/7 spam.

Waaargh wrote:

 hyv3mynd wrote:
I think grav cents are the worst build. 24" range and SnP means you cannot ever run or over watch. Max move 6" per turn if you're not crossing terrain which you need since they don't have an invuln.

They'll barely scratch flesh hounds, seekers, or a screamer star before they get bogged down and chewed up. Wraithknights can bounce around them all day with ID shots. When you get close to a serpent they can move up 6" dump wraithguard out 6" and shoot 12" with ID cannons. You'll never get in range of an IA riptide, fire warriors can back up and fire every turn with better range. They won't hurt kroot. They won't hurt cultists zombies or spawn.

They have too many drawbacks for TAC lists. Leave gravs for the bikes. Take cents with lascannons missile launchers and tank hunters and they will pop a vehicle every turn from a safe distance.

Grav weapons are obviously not meant to be deployed against light targets, the same way melta weapons are not meant so be used against hordes or flamers meant to be used against AV. In an TAC tournament list you should be prepared for those kind of targets with a different solution. What grav gives you is short range anti-MC tech, which handily can also be used against heavy infantry and vehicles.

Sure, you are certainly right in your analogy. That is why the correct special weapons need to be given to the correct squads, who can utilize them efficiently. For example drop pod or bike squad flamers are good as they get to dictate the range more efficiently on their short range weapon, whilst not being too expensive for what may well be a suicide mission.

Grav centurions have an average range, a terrible movespeed and no invulnerable save. The only way to get them in range is to walk them up the table (easy points to the enemy) or let them ride in a landraider (and spend around 1/4 - 1/2 of your army on 1 squad). I suppose you could give them a screen of tac marines to give them a 5+ cover save, but remember that it would grant the enemy a cover save if the centurions want to shoot back. Grav cannons can do terrible terrible damage, but you must make the enemy come to you, and most of the time this will not happen until the centurions have been taken out.

Grav guns are better on bikes, they have relentless and turbo boost so can get to where they need or shoot the salvo weapons effectively. And you can get 2 grav gun bikers for 1 centurion.

For 165 pts you can ally in a DA stock Libby with PFG and a 5-man sniper scout squad with cloaks.

You now have a 4++ save for your Centurion squad and they are now Fearless, get to twin-link their guns and get PE CSM as a bonus.

I'm sticking them behind an ADL with quad-gun and IF CT with 3 TLLCs, MLs and omniscope; they'll be my long range anti-tank/anti-air support. As mentioned above add the now even-more-awesome TFC for anti-horde and you got some well-rounded long-range firepower.

 Leth wrote:
Also if you do the math for two squads of devastators with 3 lascannons and 3 missile launchers they are around 205 points.

Well the missile devs can shoot at infantry without wasting AT shots and a Predator is better than lascannon devs or missile/las cent devs, at least against non-air targets. Taking an ADL with quad-gun is still a highly viable option for AA. The weakness of the cent devs is that each model can't split their AI/AT fire and the squad risks overkill so I'm leaning towards Predators, Vindicators, TFCs and Stormravens right now.

Why bring missile devs anyway?

Oh, yeah, that's right. The cent dev upgrade thingie only let's the squad split fire by MODEL. Oh my lord, that's full of fail.

The way I see it, buying Lascannons usually wastes the other weapon option. Neither missile launchers nor hurricane bolters merge particularly well, though I suppose against some MCs they might work together.

So grav cannon/ML , then? Grav cannon/hurricane bolters? I am really not feeling it with this unit.

What a lot of people haven't twigged to is that Cents take up 3 spaces in a Land Raider, Tiggy takes up 1, and standard Land Raiders are a good unit in the current meta. The problem they have is no Frag Grenades and Low Capacity, which doesn't matter with the Cent/Libby Loadout. The Land Raider solves the mobility issue, as Cents can be standing 12" out from the Raider's starting position and fire 24", for 36" threat. It also solves them getting shot up before they can unload their firepower, as the other army has to go through a Land Raider first.

260 points for the Cents, Grav, Omniscope, 165 for Tiggy, 250+ for the Land Raider. It's 675 points for the module, but the key thing is all those points are efficiently spent points, that you can build an army around. You can actually divide the firepower up between 4 different units so should you wish to.

As for powers you obviously want the 4+ Invul and the ignores cover from Divination, with Primaris as the fallback. Not hard to hit most of that given Tiggy's rules.

675 for five models? I'm not sure that can ever be called "efficient".

Waaargh wrote:
With grav cannons they will murder anything they get near, bar light infantry.

So to me the question is: How do I get my cent devs close to the action, and how do I avoid the opponent focus his entire arsenal of AT weapons on them?

Use a Chapter Master on a bike with a stormshield as the lead model. If he can't take the hit, then start using LOS to move the wounds around.

Heh! Iron hands chapter master on bike w/Shield Eternal

Martel732 wrote:
675 for five models? I'm not sure that can ever be called "efficient".

What does number of models have to do with anything? Dumb comment.

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
675 for five models? I'm not sure that can ever be called "efficient".

What does number of models have to do with anything? Dumb comment.

Yeah, because holding multiple objectives, instant death and having 1/3rd of your army tied up in cc by one unit means nothing right?

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
675 for five models? I'm not sure that can ever be called "efficient".

What does number of models have to do with anything? Dumb comment.

Yeah, because holding multiple objectives, instant death and having 1/3rd of your army tied up in cc by one unit means nothing right?

You're saying things, but they don't seem to have any relevancy to anything? Maybe try using less sarcasm and you might be able to put across some sort of valid point.

That was my point. It's a lot of eggs in one basket. And everyone's proposal of putting Tigirius and some guy with the Capt America shield in it just makes it worse in that respect.

Their damage isn't so amazing that is worth all that. These cents are pratically worthless vs hordes the way everyone is talking about building them.

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
675 for five models? I'm not sure that can ever be called "efficient".

What does number of models have to do with anything? Dumb comment.

Yeah, because holding multiple objectives, instant death and having 1/3rd of your army tied up in cc by one unit means nothing right?

You're saying things, but they don't seem to have any relevancy to anything? Maybe try using less sarcasm and you might be able to put across some sort of valid point.

I think his point is that a squad of Centurions and a Chapter Master is too expensive to work and that having a couple of troops squads to hold objectives would be more effective. He's just not saying it clearly.

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
675 for five models? I'm not sure that can ever be called "efficient".

What does number of models have to do with anything? Dumb comment.

Yeah, because holding multiple objectives, instant death and having 1/3rd of your army tied up in cc by one unit means nothing right?

You're saying things, but they don't seem to have any relevancy to anything? Maybe try using less sarcasm and you might be able to put across some sort of valid point.

They don't have relevance if the person reading them does not understand what he is talking about, or English. But its ok, I will spell it out for you.

1) To hold multiple objectives or to fight effectively across the board, multiple units will beat a single over priced unit. If you are spending over 600 points on one non-scoring option, what else will there be in the army?

2) Your models are still susceptible to instant death from str 10 hits. The 4++ save will help, but losing some 80 points every time you fail your save is going to hurt. Cheaper units, especially ones that can make effective use of cover, are far more efficient, and durable, point for point, than your centurions. Your 24 range guns are especially asking for demolisher cannons.

3) You are talking like the centurion squad has the same threat level and capability as something like the farsight bomb, when in reality their effective role is much more niche. With grav cannons equipped please tell me what you will do about that horde of ork boyz or guardsmen blob. Grav cannons can be very efficient, but they can also fail miserably depending on the target. Investing so many points into a unit that can be quite easily countered would not be 'efficient'. You could use the landraider to get in range, but unlike battle suits there is no jump shoot jump for you, and once a cheap blob gets into contact with you, then you are going to have a bad time.

Did that make sense to you? I would reccomend changing your attitude, you come across as someone who has just bought some centurions, and is getting pretty butthurt over negative comments about them.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Halfpast_Yellow wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
675 for five models? I'm not sure that can ever be called "efficient".

What does number of models have to do with anything? Dumb comment.

Yeah, because holding multiple objectives, instant death and having 1/3rd of your army tied up in cc by one unit means nothing right?

You're saying things, but they don't seem to have any relevancy to anything? Maybe try using less sarcasm and you might be able to put across some sort of valid point.

They don't have relevance if the person reading them does not understand what he is talking about, or English. But its ok, I will spell it out for you.

1) To hold multiple objectives or to fight effectively across the board, multiple units will beat a single over priced unit. If you are spending over 600 points on one non-scoring option, what else will there be in the army?

2) Your models are still susceptible to instant death from str 10 hits. The 4++ save will help, but losing some 80 points every time you fail your save is going to hurt. Cheaper units, especially ones that can make effective use of cover, are far more efficient, and durable, point for point, than your centurions. Your 24 range guns are especially asking for demolisher cannons.

3) You are talking like the centurion squad has the same threat level and capability as something like the farsight bomb, when in reality their effective role is much more niche. With grav cannons equipped please tell me what you will do about that horde of ork boyz or guardsmen blob. Grav cannons can be very efficient, but they can also fail miserably depending on the target. Investing so many points into a unit that can be quite easily countered would not be 'efficient'. You could use the landraider to get in range, but unlike battle suits there is no jump shoot jump for you, and once a cheap blob gets into contact with you, then you are going to have a bad time.

Did that make sense to you? I would reccomend changing your attitude, you come across as someone who has just bought some centurions, and is getting pretty butthurt over negative comments about them.

So you can put actual points together, regardless of how valid they are, good to see. Try that first next time.

1) Centurions aren't objective holders, why do they need to hold objectives? This is an irrelevant point. You have the entirety of the rest of the army, and Marines are used to playing MTO style armies anyway thanks to crap troops in 6th. We play 1850, 1950 point games here. 675 points is a third of the army, there is a whole lot more to go around on top of that. 1a) They aren't an overpriced unit(S). If you are spending 165 points on an efficient HQ, which you have to pay the HQ tax for, 250 points on the grav cents which aren't overpriced for their table power they give no matter how much hate people want to give the new thing regardless of it's power level (ref Wraithknight) and a Standard Raider which is a good choice in the current meta. Please actually demonstrate where the overpricing is instead of just saying it and expecting people to believe you. Riptides aren't overpriced, Tervigons aren't overpriced, Wraithknights aren't overpriced, FMC aren't overpriced. All single models.

2) It's a lucky thing Str 10 isn't given out like candy then is it? That T5 is important because it's rare to run into Str10 shooting. The Land Raider is important here because the most likely Str 10 you'll hit, a stock Wraithknight, has to take on your Land Raider, it has to run the odds of getting the kill because it's 100% dead to Grav the next turn if not. I can't remember the last time I ever saw a Vindicator, or a demolisher for that matter. Neither are a problem to deal with.

3) No where near as pricey as a Farsight bomb. Farsight bomb needs to be careful as well, 15 Grav shots ignoring cover can make a mess of it. Against Orks, I'll worry about them when they get a new codex that puts them on a threat level with Tau and Eldar. Besides, it's not like Marines lack for low armor save killing weaponry (read: Bolters) across their codex. The Centurions even have 3 twinlinked ones themselves. But the matter of fact is, against Guard and Orks, Centurions don't waste their time with the chaff. Even a moron can work out basic target priority along the lines of "This is good at killing vehicles and armour, I think I'll shoot it at vehicles and armour instead of the unit of boyz my bolter units I'm forced to take anyway can deal to". Blobs went out when the Tau dex came in anyway.

I would reccomend changing your attitude,

Oh?

They don't have relevance if the person reading them does not understand what he is talking about, or English. But its ok, I will spell it out for you.

and is getting pretty butthurt

Honestly, you first, you hypocritical little prick.

@Thread: Getting a bit intense in here. Please stick to discussing the rules and skip the rudeness. Dakka Rule Number One is Be Polite. If you're posting here, you agreed to abide by that. Thanks.

Waaaghpower wrote:
My one problem with them is this: A single Vindicator shot (Or Equivalent) can wipe out an entire squad of these brutes with ease. At 60-100 points per model, they have a certain Achilles heel for S10 AP2.

Broadsides have the same drawback, but it's never stopped people from taking 3 squads of 3 in the previous codex or in the current one.

<phew> Read the whole thread.
You guys have convinced me of the following:

TL LC with ML and being able to split fire (that thingy I will not bother to look up) FTW (love these acronyms) .
I am going to use them how I planned: Replacements for dreadnaughts, keep them in the back yard and snipe.
In improved ruin cover from the Tech Marine from the Thunder Fire Cannon and it may all work out.

After removing the two "loin plates" front and back and gluing the two side plates to the top of the legs these guys look great (never thought I would say that) so I have to field them.

Devastators I can only say that you better be happy with your initial setup, moving and you lose a round of firing that is not as much a problem with the Centurion.
Having more boys do add some durability and receiving a charge but a 2+ narrows down where you receive "casual fire".

Got limited grav gun models (Stern Guard and new SM Tactical) and added them to troops, will now try to pry them off to put on bikers (that is truly brilliant, makes great sense).
On bikes, I really think something is going to die in an awful way at a good price!

These guys are not a "deal" but I think they can do the trick.
All that effort (Landraider) to get them in range with the Grav Cannons is a tough one and I think I would never try it: too many eggs in one basket.

Too bad a few people were getting a wee bit personal, but sure is entertaining for us bystanders! (where is my popcorn...)

I try not to get personal. Although a few persistent myths are very exasperating.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
My one problem with them is this: A single Vindicator shot (Or Equivalent) can wipe out an entire squad of these brutes with ease. At 60-100 points per model, they have a certain Achilles heel for S10 AP2.

Broadsides have the same drawback, but it's never stopped people from taking 3 squads of 3 in the previous codex or in the current one.

Or Necron Acanthrites, which I was recently convinced of the utility of.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
My one problem with them is this: A single Vindicator shot (Or Equivalent) can wipe out an entire squad of these brutes with ease. At 60-100 points per model, they have a certain Achilles heel for S10 AP2.

Broadsides have the same drawback, but it's never stopped people from taking 3 squads of 3 in the previous codex or in the current one.

This is true, and I believe would remain so for lascannon armed centurians, as you can easily dictate the range and set them up in decent cover.
Not to mention that broadsides are a pretty good counter to vindicators.
For the grav cannon ones however, where you have to get to medium range to do anything, this might not hold up.

I'm going to continue running them on foot with grav-cannons in the short term. I'm convinced of their ability to exploit cover and protect home objectives and influence the middle of the board. Almost every mobile objective taking/contesting unit is a 3+ save (Warp Spiders, Jet Bikes, Crisis Suits, Obliterators) and they will do a great job at keeping WS at bay for a turn or two. I also think they'll soak up an inordinate amount of firepower that won't be directed at my devastators or bikes.

Martel732 wrote:
I try not to get personal. Although a few persistent myths are very exasperating.

It is hard sometimes to make someone right!
From your prior post I agree these guys getting swamped if they get anywhere near the 24" range unless in a big tank which would upgrade it to #1 thing to die.
Most horde "blobs" are IG troops, Orks and Tyranid; all have low armor so grav gun is not much help.
The best way to make the Centurions ineffective is to jump them in melee even if they are the melee type.

I had a hard time seeing what these guys can do that some bikes or razorbacks could not do for less (or a Stormraven).
All they have to offer is the Grav Cannon as a unique thing and we are scratching our heads to figure out how they can use it without dying like dogs.

It is not so much fighting myths as getting people to see what would be "natural prey" for these models and what would be the typical fly swatter they would use to get rid of them.

I can't get FNP assault marines within charge range of Eldar with enough left to do any real damage, and that's AFTER dropping units in drop pods!

I just dont' see how these things make it to within 24" of an optimal target without the Eldar going LOL! you're vaporized!

Yeah, you can an IC in front with the rune shield thingie or whatever it is, but at T4, it just seems they'll eat all the scatter and shuricannon love first. Not to mention the expense of that scheme.

If the Wraithlord and Riptide were plodding and slow, I could say, yeah, this is gonna work. But they're not.

I did a quick breakdown of the DPP values of Centurians. This is how they stack up.
If these numbers don't make any sense, just read up on the concept of damage per point

Hurricane bolter + Grav Cannon
GEQ : 34.82.............48.35
MEQ : 37.60.............41.02
TEQ : 26.63..............28.34
This configuration is hell on wheels to any armored infantry. The second values are if the hurricane bolters are in double tap range (which should be fairly rare)
This config will also be a serious threat to any vehicle within 24".

ML+ Grav Cannon
GEQ : 23.56
MEQ : 36.78
TEQ : 23.37
Your increasing your range with the ML, but lowering your DPP vs GEQ significantly. Your basically doubling down against MEQ.

ML+ TL LC
GEQ : 12.26
MEQ : 12.26
TEQ : 5.10
This config is not good against infantry at all. Its designed for one purpose in mind -- the destruction of vehicles. This combines really well with tank hunter from IF CT.

How does this compare to 3 broadsides with 3 missile drones?
GEQ : 72.15
MEQ : 21.88
TEQ : 12.14

Which is better? Well, that depends. Are you going after MEQ or TEQ?

I can't wait for the first game when someone brings a Centurion deathstar and my Riptides demolish it from 60 inches away on Turn 1.

That's my basic problem with the Centurions. I think they can be a very powerful unit, but against the right tool, will fold like wet paper. Even putting them in a Landraider is not a guarantee of success, it just makes me take an additional step: shoot landraider with Hammerheads, THEN blow them up with Riptides.

The Grav Cannons are powerful, but I still think the range you get from Lascannons/Missile Launchers will be their saving grace.

Thanks for crunching the numbers labmouse42.

I'm gonna run them as the anti-tank setup you described with the IF CT today.

I'll let everybody know how they do.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
My one problem with them is this: A single Vindicator shot (Or Equivalent) can wipe out an entire squad of these brutes with ease. At 60-100 points per model, they have a certain Achilles heel for S10 AP2.

Broadsides have the same drawback, but it's never stopped people from taking 3 squads of 3 in the previous codex or in the current one.

This is true, and I believe would remain so for lascannon armed centurians, as you can easily dictate the range and set them up in decent cover.
Not to mention that broadsides are a pretty good counter to vindicators.
For the grav cannon ones however, where you have to get to medium range to do anything, this might not hold up.

S8 Ap1 it not a very good matchup for a vindicator. Honestly, Centurions are probably a better buy then Broadsides even though they are more expensive. I'd take Tl Las and a ML over the railcannon any day (maybe even the HYMP).

 labmouse42 wrote:
I did a quick breakdown of the DPP values of Centurians. This is how they stack up.

Hurricane bolter + Grav Cannon
GEQ : 34.82.............48.35
MEQ : 37.60.............41.02
TEQ : 26.63..............28.34
This configuration is hell on wheels to any armored infantry. The second values are if the hurricane bolters are in double tap range (which should be fairly rare)
This config will also be a serious threat to any vehicle within 24".

ML+ Grav Cannon
GEQ : 23.56
MEQ : 36.78
TEQ : 23.37
Your increasing your range with the ML, but lowering your DPP vs GEQ significantly. Your basically doubling down against MEQ.

ML+ TL LC
GEQ : 12.26
MEQ : 12.26
TEQ : 5.10
This config is not good against infantry at all. Its designed for one purpose in mind -- the destruction of vehicles. This combines really well with tank hunter from IF CT.

How does this compare to 3 broadsides with 3 missile drones?
GEQ : 72.15
MEQ : 21.88
TEQ : 12.14

Which is better? Well, that depends. Are you going after MEQ or TEQ?

Where did you get your Broadside numbers from? 12 TEQ kills seems waaaay too high for 3 Broadsides with HYMP, TL SMS, and 3 drones.

Which makes me suspect your other numbers as well.

EDIT: Broadsides should be closer to:

GEQ - 16.65
MEQ - 5.04
TEQ - 2.51

EDIT 2: I may be misunderstanding what you did. If so, I apologize.

Those are points, killed I think, not number of models killed

labmouse42's numbers are dakka per point.

I'll be using the hurricane bolters and grav cannon/amp today. The numbers confirm what I though. Send them midfield and they will dictate the battlefield.

 phoenix darkus wrote:
Thanks for crunching the numbers labmouse42.

I'm gonna run them as the anti-tank setup you described with the IF CT today.

I'll let everybody know how they do.

Thanks. I look forward to hearing how they work for wrecking vehicles.

 Trozen wrote:
labmouse42's numbers are dakka per point.

I'll be using the hurricane bolters and grav cannon/amp today. The numbers confirm what I though. Send them midfield and they will dictate the battlefield.

Let us know how it goes. I've been trying to decide between grav cannon or TW LC before I build mine.

MadmanMSU wrote:
Where did you get your Broadside numbers from? 12 TEQ kills seems waaaay too high for 3 Broadsides with HYMP, TL SMS, and 3 drones.

Which makes me suspect your other numbers as well.

EDIT: Broadsides should be closer to:

GEQ - 16.65
MEQ - 5.04
TEQ - 2.51

EDIT 2: I may be misunderstanding what you did. If so, I apologize.

DPP is a concept called "Damage Per Point". Were not talking about how many TEQ broadsides kill, but instead how many they kill compared to their point cost.

Its a much more useful metric for determine the value of a unit.

Go to http://simhammer.com and look up the posts there. If you dig mathhammer and analysis you might really enjoy it.

I'm still not sure what this value represents though? I mean how are you figuring that 72.5 GEQ kills is framed from their point cost? I think your RPP is spot on but I still think DPP and CPP are seriously flawed tools.

I think you need to better premise what your figures are representing, because without a better description of your target goal, those numbers seem meaningless.

 Red Corsair wrote:
I'm still not sure what this value represents though? I mean how are you figuring that 72.5 GEQ kills is framed from their point cost? I think your RPP is spot on but I still think DPP and CPP are seriously flawed tools.

I think you need to better premise what your figures are representing, because without a better description of your target goal, those numbers seem meaningless.

If you read the description he has on the website linked, the formula is:

1000 * (Models Killed) / (Unit Cost), So it's basically the number of models killed divided by the points cost, then artificially shifted up so that the numbers are more manageable (it's a lot easier to format with numbers like 75.6 than 0.0756).

 Red Corsair wrote:
I'm still not sure what this value represents though? I mean how are you figuring that 72.5 GEQ kills is framed from their point cost? I think your RPP is spot on but I still think DPP and CPP are seriously flawed tools.

I think you need to better premise what your figures are representing, because without a better description of your target goal, those numbers seem meaningless.

Thanks for the input! Did you get a chance to read about the concept of damage per point? I am sure that will help to explain what those values mean. As mentioned above, its describing 72 GEQ kills. Instead its talking about how many they can kill on a per-point basis in regards to other units.

If you would rather hear me discuss it, you can go to the 11th company podcast and look for simhammer segments. I spend 20 minutes describing the idea of DPP and giving examples. If you would rather just PM me, I can email the mp3 file to you to listen to.

What is CPP? I'm not familiar with that term? I describe (Area of Influence) sometimes, and its the subject of next weeks segment. Is that what you were referring to?

Thanks for the input. I'll make sure to link the articles on DPP when I discuss them. I had incorrectly assumed that everyone who has read my posts would have heard me describe them at great length.

TehCheator wrote:
1000 * (Models Killed) / (Unit Cost), So it's basically the number of models killed divided by the points cost, then artificially shifted up so that the numbers are more manageable (it's a lot easier to format with numbers like 75.6 than 0.0756).

That's pretty much it. When adjusting for units, I've tried to give DPP/RPP/AoI roughly the same end values. The idea is you can look at unit A and say "Its got a better DPP value than RPP, so its more like a glass cannon unit"

Hey I think I have it now, it's the type of thing that you get a handle on then someone misinterprets it here and I start looking at it skewed ha ha. I think the terminology of number of kills was being brain farted on my part as I forgot that we were artificially shifting decimal places. So rather then seeing percents per point I was looking at actual kills. I hope I didn't come across rude BTW either, I appreciate your algorithms. Obviously we need to look at several other factors and variables as you state on your blog, but it gives us at least some solid footing to start on.


Really I think people are underestimating the centurions in conjunction with other units. I mean consider a pair of grav armed bike squads with character support to ad RPP, with LC ML cents backing them up. Now lets remember that serpent shields and SC can only fire forward and those bikes can easily immobilize that serpent, do they turn an use it full pay load on squad A and expose their rear to squad B, do they fire their shield and allow those IF CT cents catch them with their shield down.

Even when using grav canons, sure those serpents and WK's can out range them, but we aren't looking at a true battle field, with deployment zones and first turn moves+weapon ranges, if your avoiding that squads threat arch, your very limited to available table space.

EDIT: CPP was choppa per point, your words actually See I did read it

 labmouse42 wrote:

MadmanMSU wrote:
Where did you get your Broadside numbers from? 12 TEQ kills seems waaaay too high for 3 Broadsides with HYMP, TL SMS, and 3 drones.

Which makes me suspect your other numbers as well.

EDIT: Broadsides should be closer to:

GEQ - 16.65
MEQ - 5.04
TEQ - 2.51

EDIT 2: I may be misunderstanding what you did. If so, I apologize.

DPP is a concept called "Damage Per Point". Were not talking about how many TEQ broadsides kill, but instead how many they kill compared to their point cost.

Its a much more useful metric for determine the value of a unit.

Go to http://simhammer.com and look up the posts there. If you dig mathhammer and analysis you might really enjoy it.

Ah, yes. I thought that's what you were doing, but I didn't understand why you would normalize them to 1000.

I personally don't look at math-hammer this way very often, since what you're looking at is the efficiency of the unit, which does not inform you of the overall value of a unit. It can be useful, but I disagree that it is a more useful metric for measuring a unit.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Really I think people are underestimating the centurions in conjunction with other units. I mean consider a pair of grav armed bike squads with character support to ad RPP, with LC ML cents backing them up. Now lets remember that serpent shields and SC can only fire forward and those bikes can easily immobilize that serpent,

Agreed! Do you shoot at the centurians, or do you go after the bikes that will be assaulting you next turn. I played Eldar for a while and assault is the big weakness of serpents. Even 5 marines getting close with krak gernades can be the end of a serpent.

Centurions I think also benefit greatly from force multipliers. A buff commander giving 'ignore cover' to a unit of centurians means one squad can kill 1-2 wave serpents a year. Throwing them in a bastion means they are immune to any damage wave serpents can deliver, etc... Its easy to look at centurians in a vacuum and not see how they interact with force multipliers.

 Red Corsair wrote:
sure those serpents and WK's can out range them, but we aren't looking at a true battle field, with deployment zones and first turn moves+weapon ranges, if your avoiding that squads threat arch, your very limited to available table space.

Yes. I talked about this in the simhammer segment that comes out this week. A 30" AoI is really quite good when placed correctly. Sticking a squad of cents in the center of the board gives a very nasty threat radius to any unit near it. If the unit is in the center of the board, they will be hitting most things. Just their presence in that area of the board exhibits very strong board control.

 Red Corsair wrote:
EDIT: CPP was choppa per point, your words actually See I did read it

Heh...yea, I forgot I used to separate dakka per point and choppa per point. Since then I realized they are effectively the same thing -- a unit just does damage in different phases.

Do I think centurians are the new black? No. I think they are probably getting undervalued from the initial glance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MadmanMSU wrote:
I personally don't look at math-hammer this way very often, since what you're looking at is the efficiency of the unit, which does not inform you of the overall value of a unit. It can be useful, but I disagree that it is a more useful metric for measuring a unit.

Finding the value of units has actually been the focus of my simhammering for the past few months. I've pinned it down to the following traits.

* Damage per Point
* Resilience per Point
* Area of Influence
* Movement capacity
* Scoring ability

Which trait is more important is arbitrary. You might like units that are more resilient, you might like glass cannons, or you might like fast units. That's all up to you. The point of the comparisons is to find the units that best fit your wishes.

If you have suggestions I'm all ears

I actually almost suggested a bastion for them but I think if we are using a bastion your better off with a LC devastator squad and buff commander as its cheaper and has the same merits so long as the school house doesn't burn down

@labmouse42

While your maths is useful to you, and anyone who follows your posts, it is meaningless to most people in an open discussion.

I guessed the meaning of DPP and am assuming that the unit for "dakka" was wounds caused, but then the numbers appear to make no sense (probably due to your *1000). It is impossible to figre out from the post alone.

You might be better to refer to "wounds per point" and not bother with the *1000, which makes the numbers simpler to read but the maths impossible to follow.

Or your unit could be mWPP (milli wounds per point)

 phoenix darkus wrote:
Thanks for crunching the numbers labmouse42.

I'm gonna run them as the anti-tank setup you described with the IF CT today.

I'll let everybody know how they do.

My friend tried them yesterday in his IF force. They were responsible for nearly a thousand points of death by T4.

He's using them as staples from now on.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
@labmouse42

While your maths is useful to you, and anyone who follows your posts, it is meaningless to most people in an open discussion.

I guessed the meaning of DPP and am assuming that the unit for "dakka" was wounds caused, but then the numbers appear to make no sense (probably due to your *1000). It is impossible to figre out from the post alone.

You might be better to refer to "wounds per point" and not bother with the *1000, which makes the numbers simpler to read but the maths impossible to follow.

Thanks for the input! Did you get a chance to read about the concept of damage per point? I am sure that will help to explain what those values mean. Its talking about how many they can kill on a per-point basis in regards to other units.
I'll make sure to link the article when I make those posts.

The reason we normalize the numbers is because most people have a harder time reading this..
GEQ : 0.01226
MEQ : 0.01226
TEQ : 0.00510

Over this.
GEQ : 12.26
MEQ : 12.26
TEQ : 5.10

Did you catch my edit about milli wounds per point? Giving that as your unit of measurment might enable people to figure the maths without extra reading.

Good work anyway, I just think a lot of people will be too lazy to read up (like me).

I just did. That's good food for thought. I'm a bit worried about backchanging what I've done thus far, as I've already written multiple articles on it, and have been making segments on a podcast about it.

However, I will mention that DPP is just a conversion from mWPP.

 squall018 wrote:

 Trozen wrote:
labmouse42's numbers are dakka per point.

I'll be using the hurricane bolters and grav cannon/amp today. The numbers confirm what I though. Send them midfield and they will dictate the battlefield.

Let us know how it goes. I've been trying to decide between grav cannon or TW LC before I build mine.

Played vs Salamanders with a Khan dual grav gun bike squad allied in with my Iron Hands. He had 3 grav cents on foot and my 3 grav cents were in a godhammer. His took out an Ironclad turn 2. I then deployed mine out and caused 11 ap2 wounds on his, killing the 2 in LOS. His one guy left then turned on mine killing 2 and he finished my 3rd off with stormtalons. His lone cent then immobilized my godhammer the next turn. I repaired the damage with a MOTF then whiffed my lascannon shots into his cent. He didn't cause damage with his next turn and then I finished his off with the 2 lascannons. Game was kill points and we tied at turn 5. I was in a losing position though.

Total Kills: His got Ironclad, 2 grav cents, Immbilized LR. Mine: 2 grav cents

edit.

My thought this morning. Is it worth spending 10 points on a missile to allow the grav guns to kill models in a squad greater then 24" away?

Used the LC/ML centurions with IF CT yesterday against Necrons:

-I had them joined by an allied DA libby with PFG and Prescience.
-I had another regular devastator squad with 2xLCs and 2x MLs combat squadded with the LC guys near the libby (and behind an ADL/quadgun)

Overall thoughts:
-They're a big bullet-magnet and as such they absolutely needed the 4++ (whether cover or invulnerable, that's up to you to come up with it)
-They easily killed a couple of transport barges and stripped a bunch of hull-points from the new FW necron uber-shooty AV14 vehicle (forget what it's called) and eventually killed it (not as quick as I thought, poor rolls on my tank-hunter rerolls)
-A Skyshield pad would be a great addition to an IF army, stick both squads mentioned above on it and shoot away without relying on DA allies for the 4++.
-Game-changer? No. Good Devastator replacement? Yes: more durable, more guns (in a single-squad), still flexible with split-fire, and you get night-vision and TLLCs

Hope this helps.

Can't remember off hand if SM libby gets access to Telekinesis (or a battle brother of SM).

What about Gate of Infinity combo-ed with Dev. CT. I wished they had deep strike before I read the rules and while this wouldn't give allow them to be ANYWHERE on the board, it will allow them to be most places.

This is primarily for those wanting to run Grav Cannon CT.

eltrain728 wrote:
Can't remember off hand if SM libby gets access to Telekinesis (or a battle brother of SM).

What about Gate of Infinity combo-ed with Dev. CT. I wished they had deep strike before I read the rules and while this wouldn't give allow them to be ANYWHERE on the board, it will allow them to be most places.

This is primarily for those wanting to run Grav Cannon CT.

Standard Libby's have Telekinesis.

I actually considered the same thing -- however to make it more reliable, I'd take Tigurious as an ally (or primary if you are UM). Then he can A. Take prescience and then use the others to try and get Gate of Infinity. Either way, the re-rolls to hit AND wound with grav cannons would be nice.

Still unreliable (aside from the re-rolls), but it would be a fun way to get some added range.

I would invest in at least one missile to increase the range, as well as give them at least one shooting weapon as they advance.

Also good against most of their targets.

I'm kinda liking the idea of a centurion squad with all missles and hurricane bolters, just rly like how that sounds in my mind but probably not as effective as they could be...might do that!

I'm gonna build mine with the LC and missle launchers. I have a game against necrons this weekend. Guess we'll see how it goes. I think the extra range will really help, and that way I can keep them in cover and still hit most things.

I'm debating on getting some and running them as grav/ml versions instead of my usual two ML dev squads.

My army usually tend to have at least 1 squad of assault termies and an vindicator or predator so I'd hope the cents might not be a turn 1 fire magnet!

EDIT: might also help me not to suck against obliterators quite so much!

 labmouse42 wrote:

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
@labmouse42

While your maths is useful to you, and anyone who follows your posts, it is meaningless to most people in an open discussion.

I guessed the meaning of DPP and am assuming that the unit for "dakka" was wounds caused, but then the numbers appear to make no sense (probably due to your *1000). It is impossible to figre out from the post alone.

You might be better to refer to "wounds per point" and not bother with the *1000, which makes the numbers simpler to read but the maths impossible to follow.

Thanks for the input! Did you get a chance to read about the concept of damage per point? I am sure that will help to explain what those values mean. Its talking about how many they can kill on a per-point basis in regards to other units.
I'll make sure to link the article when I make those posts.

The reason we normalize the numbers is because most people have a harder time reading this..
GEQ : 0.01226
MEQ : 0.01226
TEQ : 0.00510

Over this.
GEQ : 12.26
MEQ : 12.26
TEQ : 5.10

Why would you not just take the inverse and call it as "points per kill" or something of that nature? No need for a messy and arbitrary scaling factor. Lower is better. (We like paying fewer points to remove enemy models).

GEQ : 0.01226 ^-1 = 81.56
MEQ : 0.01226 ^ -1 = 81.56
TEQ : 0.00510 ^ -1 = 196.1

Corollax wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
@labmouse42

While your maths is useful to you, and anyone who follows your posts, it is meaningless to most people in an open discussion.

I guessed the meaning of DPP and am assuming that the unit for "dakka" was wounds caused, but then the numbers appear to make no sense (probably due to your *1000). It is impossible to figre out from the post alone.

You might be better to refer to "wounds per point" and not bother with the *1000, which makes the numbers simpler to read but the maths impossible to follow.

Thanks for the input! Did you get a chance to read about the concept of damage per point? I am sure that will help to explain what those values mean. Its talking about how many they can kill on a per-point basis in regards to other units.
I'll make sure to link the article when I make those posts.

The reason we normalize the numbers is because most people have a harder time reading this..
GEQ : 0.01226
MEQ : 0.01226
TEQ : 0.00510

Over this.
GEQ : 12.26
MEQ : 12.26
TEQ : 5.10

Why would you not just take the inverse and call it as "points per kill" or something of that nature? No need for a messy and arbitrary scaling factor. Lower is better. (We like paying fewer points to remove enemy models).

GEQ : 0.01226 ^-1 = 81.56
MEQ : 0.01226 ^ -1 = 81.56
TEQ : 0.00510 ^ -1 = 196.1

TBH, having it the second way around makes more sense to me - I find mathhammer can be a bit confusing.

Particularly as the second way is easier to conceptualize. "How many points do I need to spend to kill one of his models this shooting phase?"

The grav guns are devastating, but will suffer when Orks and Tyranids come out, I'm sure.

Martel732 wrote:
The grav guns are devastating, but will suffer when Orks and Tyranids come out, I'm sure.

Less so vs Nids. MC are going to suffer greatly.

I get what you mean though.

MCs that Nidz actually use are 3+ armor, so grav actually is a threat to them.
Against the rest yeah its going to suck lol.

Only MANz actually have an armor save worth shaking a stick at, Bikernobz will be wounded on 4s unfortunately but thats just average dice anyway and they dont ignore cover they just ignore armor.

Puscifer wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The grav guns are devastating, but will suffer when Orks and Tyranids come out, I'm sure.

Less so vs Nids. MC are going to suffer greatly.

I get what you mean though.

Tyranids will have to be more cagey with their MCs. But Flyrants will feast on them, since grav isn't skyfire.

No, but theyre still shooting 15-30 shoots depending on how many cents you got, all of which are rerolling misses. Theyre still going to land a few of them. And not like its that hard to make a FMC crash and burn anyway lol laserpointers ftw

yeah, but even 2 squads of Cents ends up being about 33% or so of an 1850 list. Once you add in the troops/HQ, you'll probably not have too many points left over. I think a squad of Cents is a good investment, multiple, I dunno about that.

I manage to fit two 3 man squads with two troops and three squads of sternguard in my list with pedro

Trying to free up about 50 points for a thunderfire cannon but it is difficult if I want to keep the aegis.

I have 3 I assembled with Lascannon/Missile Launchers, due to my Imperial Fists giving them tank hunters. I can't wait to see the damage they putout!

I find it strange that Oblits can be accepted as great almost universally but Cents could be discussed as crap. Pretty comparable points-wise when you add in the Nurgle buff. If you don't then the Cents are going to be much more durable. Both units fulfill a very similar role while the Oblits can walk up or DS, the Cents are going to put out a LOT more pain in that mid range environment.

Reminds me of the Wraithknight when the Eldar dex first dropped. Everyone thought they were crap at first too.

invertigo22 wrote:
I find it strange that Oblits can be accepted as great almost universally but Cents could be discussed as crap. Pretty comparable points-wise when you add in the Nurgle buff. If you don't then the Cents are going to be much more durable. Both units fulfill a very similar role while the Oblits can walk up or DS, the Cents are going to put out a LOT more pain in that mid range environment.

Reminds me of the Wraithknight when the Eldar dex first dropped. Everyone thought they were crap at first too.

Well, there's several differences, including the lack of an invuln.

I'm curious if any Centurion-themed armies will pop up and be good. They were definitely FOC conscious when they wrote this codex, ensuring you can double up on units that compliment eachother (Centurions, Storm Flyers, Assault Marines and Vanguard, etc).

A basic loadout of 3 Centurions will still be pretty mean as far as dakka goes. 27 tl shots of the bolter variety will go a long way with all basic infantry. I say you could take 3 units of 3, each with different weapons loadouts. Might be silly, but you know someone out there will do it.

Lack of an invul can be pretty easily compensated against most targets with a cover save.

There are very few attacks that will break their natural armor that are also cover ignoring. (Only one I can think of is the riptide with attached commander, and I guess legion of the damned?)

In general they are going to be 4 points to 14 points more than a oblit. They dont get deepstrike and versatility of weapons or a powerfist. However they get ATSKNF as well as fixed weapons they can use every round, as well as their lascannon being twinlinked and the grav amps being re-roll wound.

There are some significant differences. However they may have similar things but they are in COMPLETELY different books. In Chaos there really is not much else that can compare to the role oblits play. While in Space Marines there are a few different ways to get what dev centurions can do.

Honestly if it were not for heldrakes they would probably not be worth it. Also imperial fist (and a lesser extent Khan for the grav units) are the only situations where they will really hold their own IMO. Which is fine because I am imperial fist almost all the way.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Well, there's several differences, including the lack of an invuln.

Its been my experience that you generally can find a hill or ruins to hide behind. Your generally going to be bringing at least one TFC in a list. Why? Because they are awesome in the current meta.
So your cents will be getting a 3+ cover save. That's better than a 5+ invuln. Sure, there are a lot of weapons that ignore cover.
How many of them are AP2? Most of the 'ignore cover' weapons I have faced are AP4 or worse. Sure, there is the occasional farsight bomb, but for the most part you can get rid of those dangerous ignore cover weapons by having some practical target priority (ie, shoot the pathfinders with your TFCs, shoot your cents at the skyrays)


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 evildrspock wrote:
I'm curious if any Centurion-themed armies will pop up and be good.

I doubt it. I think that they hit a point of diminishing returns pretty quickly. There are one of two configs you can bring them in.
* Anti-infantry. This brings hurrican bolters and grav guns. They can shred infantry and armor at mid-range.
* Anti-armor. This brings TL LC and ML. Taken with tank-hunter they can shred armor at range. Your trading the ability to kill hordes of infantry for range.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Finding the value of units has actually been the focus of my simhammering for the past few months. I've pinned it down to the following traits.

* Damage per Point
* Resilience per Point
* Area of Influence
* Movement capacity
* Scoring ability

Which trait is more important is arbitrary. You might like units that are more resilient, you might like glass cannons, or you might like fast units. That's all up to you. The point of the comparisons is to find the units that best fit your wishes.

If you have suggestions I'm all ears

Sure sure, I agree.

But for many units, you can really narrow down which statistics are truly important. Take Firewarriors as an example. Resilience is pretty much useless. The only thing that really matters is that A) they can score and B) how much damage they can put out. Even then, you're almost always taking either a bare minimum squad or a full squad, with the occasional exception for something in between to save that extra 10 points you need for an additional piece of war-gear somewhere else. The efficiency of the unit is (almost) irrelevant.

Its a similar argument for Devastator Centurions. You can do an efficiency calculation and find out what the best unit size is per point, but in reality, that unit has a specific job. If you're using them to take out vehicles, for example, they need to have enough firepower to ensure they will strip 3 hull points or get 1 explode result every turn to fulfill their role, regardless of what the most efficient unit size is.

My point is this: efficiency can me a useful metric, but not in a vacuum. IMHO, you have to do the following: A) establish what the role you want a unit to play is, B) figure out what the bare minimum firepower/unit size is required for it to accomplish its goal, C) consider other metrics such as efficiency as compared to other units in similar roles, resiliency, etc.

Again, not criticizing. I agree with your efficiency calcs, just think that they are not the primary thing to look at in this situation.

Sometimes, there's a job that needs to be done so you take a unit for it.

Dev cents with Grav give a no-go zone for enemy MCs within their effective range, which pretty much nothing else easily gives.

Las/Missile ones IMO are neat, but you can get that sort of thing from other parts of the army so the job can be moved depending on other factors.

I've played three games with Gravcannon/Missile Launcher centurions so far. In the first game, they (naturally) lost one man to the shooting from two hive tyrants and promptly failed morale and ran off the board in a stunning debut. Over the next two games (one against WS marines and one against Tyranids) they did remarkably well. Here is a quick breakdown.

VS White Scars: Mission was Relic with Vanguard deployment. I went second. The centurions deployed out of line of sight initially and moved into a ruin on turn one that left them about 20 inches away from the relic. They were able to effectively influence the relic the whole game and grav amps made wounding his bikes and scouts fairly reliable. Centurions also scored first blood for me by murdering a unit of 5 scouts that ventured too close on the top of 1. Centurions over the course of the game killed one unit of 5 scouts, a landspeeder storm, a razorback (outside of grav cannon range), and his bike captain (after the remainder of the command squad had been picked off by other shooting), and a 5 man bike squad. Very solid showing and his army was built like most common builds right now with little long range firepower which forced him to close to ranges where I'd be able to get the centurions into ideal range (22-24 inches). Ended up winning 6-1.

VS Tyranids: Mission was 3 objective Crusade with Hammer & Anvil deployment. Bit of bad dice saw two of my centurions die to Flyrant shooting before they got to shoot anything (my opponent is well aware of the damage potential). The survivor shoot an enduranced flyrant in cover in return and still managed to sneak two wound through the 5+/5+ which allowed a big squad to finish off his warlord. The survivor was then promptly assaulted by Ymgarls and died. That Flyrant was also First Blood. Ended up winning 6-5 so the centurions effectiveness against MCs made a huge difference (we each had one objective, warlord and linebreaker).

I really like the grav-cannon setup. The gravamp is a huge multipler to its effectivness and it fills a unique niche in a marine army that little else does. I'll update as I get some more games in, but my initial take is these guys are a must include for my Golden Throne Southwest list at the end of the month.

It seems to be a tossup between missile launchers or hurricane bolters for Grav Amp Centurions. I can see the benefits of both, but if I get a 2nd squad, I'll be hard pressed to choose between focusing on only Anti-Infantry or give some optional long range as well. I think I'd probably vote for the hurricane bolters, although for IF Centurions should probably be AT to take benefit from free Tank Hunters.

Chapter Tactics seems to sway the way you play them. Our Codex: Space Marines tactics discussions may eventually get split into which Chapter Tactics is chosen. I would just feel bad to take anti-infantry with my special rules.

I'm going to take grav amps on mine with missile launchers, and ally with my Dark Angels who will support them with LC dev squads and termis to deal with MC's and Terminators.

They also look quite nice as a replacement for devi squads... 3x LC + ML in cover = long range, 2+ with a 4+ cover save, T5, and Twin Linked LC's (oh and T5 and 2 wounds = hard to insta-kill). This makes them more durable and dependable than a Land Raider or a devi squad imho.

The lack of an invulnerable save is really their only downside, but use of cover and allies can really help this issue. I think they will be the new awesome for marine/marine allies.

A lot of people keep saying that the 24" range makes them not worth it....and I'm not certain why.

Grey Knights are almost limited to 24" across the board and they are still pretty decent. Necrons are the same way, albeit they have decent transports.

I do have to say, that sticking them in a Land Raider worked out very well for me. Deployed them sideways on the deployment line, moved them up, disembarked, and I was well within range of just about everything on my opponents side. Wiped a Wraithknight clean off the board in the first turn. Second turn, they were down 1 Centurion and had a wound on another. They managed to put another 4 wounds on a second Wraithknight. End of the game I still had 1 Centurion alive.

I'll have to get a few more games in with it before truly knowing if they will consistently perform, but I enjoyed playing with them and will welcome them in my army. They were expensive, especially with the Land Raider, but getting first blood by killing a Wraithknight doesn't happen very often.

If I was taking all grav then I would invest the 10 points in one missile launcher to increase their kill range to 36. Just so that you only have to get a toe within range of the unit to put the hurt on all of them.

 Leth wrote:
If I was taking all grav then I would invest the 10 points in one missile launcher to increase their kill range to 36. Just so that you only have to get a toe within range of the unit to put the hurt on all of them.

Good plan, it extends the range further actually, but not practically as there are seldom 24" distance within a unit.

One thing with Missile Launchers is that they can be handy to get that one extra hull point off when you get a bad roll (which do happen), where the Hurricaine Bolter couldn't scratch it.

mmm i really don't like centurions an this is why:
PRO :
* 2 Wounds
* TL Lasc.s
* 2+ armour save

CON:
*High cost
*No Inv.Saves
* Tough 5 so a S10 is an instadeath


But the Real Question is:
Greyknights got dreadknight
TAu got Riptide
Eldar got wraitknight

WHY THE F...K SM haven't got it!!! WHY


TAu and ELdars got AA weapons at straght 8-10
SM got SPECIALIZED VEICHLE!!! that are AA weapons
-.- really Hunter 1 shot FO7VP4
Stalker 4 shot FO7VP4 or 8 SHOT FO7VP4 at ab 2 -.-

Eldar don't get any AA weapons apart from their own flyer or Flakk Missiles on Warwalkers.

I am personally really glad that each new codex doesn't just give each army +1 of this unit type, +1 of this unit type, etc, that would make the game incredibly boring. I mean, to some extent most armies are getting flyers, but at least they're not all clones of eachother. Space Marines need something to set them apart, and no other army aside from Imperial Guard have dedicated Anti-Air Tanks. Pretty cool, if you ask me.

I am also very happy with Centurions. These guys are gonna see more use than people think as they are playtested and used more.

 NickTheButcher wrote:
I think throwing them in a Skyshield Landing pad sounds like fun. T5, 2W, 2+, 4++ and decent LoS to boot. Throw in IH Chapter tactic to give IWND to the Character and Feel No Pain and you may have a formidable firing platform with either the LC/ML or Grav Cannon/ML.

The skyshield is the key. I imagine that we will be seeing ADLs being replaced with skyshields in tournaments soon. When half or more of the armies that show up in tournaments have two or more riptides there is a growing need for invulnerable saves. The skyshield is one of the few things in the game capable of giving out an invulnerable save and it is available to all armies.

 augustus5 wrote:

 NickTheButcher wrote:
I think throwing them in a Skyshield Landing pad sounds like fun. T5, 2W, 2+, 4++ and decent LoS to boot. Throw in IH Chapter tactic to give IWND to the Character and Feel No Pain and you may have a formidable firing platform with either the LC/ML or Grav Cannon/ML.

The skyshield is the key. I imagine that we will be seeing ADLs being replaced with skyshields in tournaments soon. When half or more of the armies that show up in tournaments have two or more riptides there is a growing need for invulnerable saves. The skyshield is one of the few things in the game capable of giving out an invulnerable save and it is available to all armies.

Skyshield, just like the ADL, is crazy underpriced. 75 points for 4+ invulnerable saves for a massive amount of models is huge. Basically all the shooty models (even a couple tanks I suppose) of every army can make a Skyshield firebase which would drop the inv save's price to a few points per model. Funnily enough, even Tau themselves benefit from it by deploying all the Broadsides, Missile Drones and Skyrays there.

Looking forward to the ridiculous sight of Wraithknights and Riptides shooting at eachother from opposing Skyshield Landing Pads.

Either stick Tigurius with the Centurion Devs for Prescience and the very likely roll of Forewarning. Or, if you don't want to risk it on dice rolls, just ally in a Dark Angel Libby with Power Field Generator. 95 points of Invul and re-roll to hits.

Skyshield happens to be banned from quite a few tournaments I have heard, a handful of local ones too.

I have heard bastion and aegis only for the most part. Which is a shame since now that everything ignores cover there needs to be something.

Problem is cover inflation happened, so now we have things that ignore cover. We have crazy invul save inflation right now so it will be interesting to see how GW rectifies(or tries to) this issue.

 Leth wrote:
I have heard bastion and aegis only for the most part. Which is a shame since now that everything ignores cover there needs to be something.

Problem is cover inflation happened, so now we have things that ignore cover. We have crazy invul save inflation right now so it will be interesting to see how GW rectifies(or tries to) this issue.

I'm not seeing the invulnerable save inflation that you're talking about, but when 4+ cover saves (which in many cases work like invulnerable saves) cost 50 points per army (1p per model on average) the whole AP system breaks down completely. It's always been the case that if cover saves are too good and too easily accessible MEQ and low AP weapons become overpriced. I'd like the next edition to bring back to-hit and armour save modifiers and invulnerable saves being transformed into ward saves, but there's very little chance of that happening.

Both eldar and daemons can get 2+ Re-rollable Invul saves on entire units pretty reliably.

 Leth wrote:
Both eldar and daemons can get 2+ Re-rollable Invul saves on entire units pretty reliably.

There are 2 builds that give the 2++ rerollable save. SeerStars and screamerCouncils. Those are the builds designed for that purpose. They are both very strong builds.
Tzeentch daemons can also get it in some other isolated places -- going to ground behind an ADL, but they are more situation.

You have you build your army with that build in mind though. Its not like every eldar or daemon player out there has a 2++ rerollable coming out of their ears.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Both eldar and daemons can get 2+ Re-rollable Invul saves on entire units pretty reliably.

There are 2 builds that give the 2++ rerollable save. SeerStars and screamerCouncils. Those are the builds designed for that purpose. They are both very strong builds.
Tzeentch daemons can also get it in some other isolated places -- going to ground behind an ADL, but they are more situation.

You have you build your army with that build in mind though. Its not like every eldar or daemon player out there has a 2++ rerollable coming out of their ears.

This is why you have Tigurius to get that Misfortune. Somehow not too many tournament wins have been by Seer Council/ Screamerstar though.

Without the Baron, Seer Council is susceptible to tarpit. And they have to roll the right powers every game.

Screamerstar, I don't know as much.

I'm currently writing up a 2000 pt IH list and my problem is heavy support limitations. With mof I'm running 4 dreads ( don't hate on me) which leaves me two hs slots. Now, I wanted to field two preds, but I also NEED to include a tfc. So I'm at a dilemma. Then it hit me, 3 lascannon ml cents are putting out roughly the same as two autocannon las sponson preds. This leaves me the free spot for the tfc and all is sweet. Admittedly I lose two av 13 chassis but the tfc is fairly important as my only real dedicated anti horde.

At what point do you concede defeat and pay that little extra for something in order to balance your list?

The cents would be going behaind an adl btw.


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I gues what am really asking the community is, are 3 cents worth trading for two preds considering all I have told?