Just wanted to open a new topic for the new codex.
My first thoughts?
Priests are now insanely good.
Simulcra are now an auto include.
Only 1 relic per character so no stacking up "Reroll failed saves" with "Eternal Warrior"
I want to hear the thoughts of the veteran Dakkanauts
As said acts of faith are much more reliable now, and you can get the simulacrum to use a power twice per game, and its cheaper than the old sim.
Being able to put 4 meltaguns and a combi-melta in an outflanking/scouting immolator with a MM on top is going to annoy some people! Especially when those Melta weapons can ignore cover. - this could ruin wave serpents, bikes, speeders etc. and also put some hurt on MC's like riptides and wraithknights
Repentia can now have a transport, although as it stands they cant use the forgeworld repressor. This makes them much more mobile
Priests seem amazing for their points, just having one in a BSS squad makes the whole unit a pain to remove and a vague threat in assault, especially now you can stick 3 flamer weapons in a squad of 5 bods (1/2Flamers 0/1HF 1 Combi flamer) plus you can stick a plasma gun on the priest. Thats a lot of shooting potential from 6 models.
Overall i think that the assault potential of the army has gone up (massed acro-flagellants might be fun) while the shooting has stayed similar to before, although only being able to rend on a max of 2 turns of retributor shooting per game is a bit of a negative, but to balance that exorcists have gone down in cost.
You could make the coolest Word Bearer army out of this.
Space Marines (black templars) allied with Sisters
Crusader squads maxed out to represent word bearers herding slaves into battle. The sister allies would be comprised of arco-spam with priests to represent combat slaves/servitors. You'd have to make something up for the 5 sisters in an immolator you'd have to bring but other than that the fluff matches up pretty well.
The ability to reroll a 3+ save is big. This changes your chances of losing a model from 1/3 to 1/9 after they have been wounded.
This means instead of taking 3 wounds, they will be taking 1 -- or they will have 300% the durability to weapons that allow them armor saves.
This means that sisters can become excellent tarpit units, as it takes a large number of attacks to kill then (Barring AP3+ weapons)
Just how good is it? Here's an example.
Lets say you have a unit that his on 3s and wounds on 3 in assault and gives normal saves. This could be orks on the assault, space marines, khorne dogs, etc. Lets compare the durability of a squad of 10 sisters with a priest to a 50 man guard blob. It will take 169 attacks to kill every guard. It will take 183 attacks to kill 9 sisters (no counting the priest)
That's right. 9 sisters with a priest giving rerolls are more durable to those attacks than 50 guard!
I took an MSU build packed with Immolators against a Drakespam list and won.
I didn't think this book could hold off three flyers, but three Exorcists did me proud in killing all three Drakes.
The MSUBSS with Flamer, Heavy Flamer and Combi Flamer and Priest with PG in a TLMM Immolator is a lot of firepower when you gang up two of these squads and take out just about anything in a single turn. Especially when you add a Dominion Melta Squad to the duo.
Two of these attack wings with optional Celestian support is very formidable on the flanks when you castle up the Exorcists.
I've got a second game tonight... against Necrons.
Only 1 relic per character so no stacking up "Reroll failed saves" with "Eternal Warrior"
I want to hear the thoughts of the veteran Dakkanauts
There's no restriction for most characters to take multiple relics. Just one of each per army.
There actually is a limit. It says so just above the selection list for Relics.
One may be taken per character. No more than one of each per army.
Where?
ECCLESIARCHY RELICS Ecclesiarchy Relics are items of incredible rarity, holy artefacts and revered tools of destruction that the Ecclesiarchy will go to any lengths to recover and protect. Such is their spiritual provenance that they are powerful weapons in the hands of the faithful, and in extreme circumstances they will be entrusted to the warriors of the Adeptus Ministorum. Only one each of the following relics can be chosen per army
ECCLESIARCHY RELICS A model can take one of the following. Only one of each Ecclesiarchy Relic can be taken per army
It doesn't say only one. It says can take one. Only one is very common in the dex where it says they can take only one. Also, all the entry say that they can take items from Ecclesiarchy Relics, like so:
- A Canoness may take items from the Melee Weapons, Ranged Weapons and Ecclesiarchy Relics lists.
I'm sort of pleased and sort of bummed out at missed opportunities here. I was hoping for some Eviscerator love but nope, just the boss lady and priests. Oh well. Reliable AoF are good, I think it will work out a bit better now.
One thing that strikes me as very strong, if subtle, is our Altar of War chart. We now roll off with our opponent and if we win we get, basically, just what we want- a mission that puts us right at our optimal range. Anyone else see this? It does make the Exorcist risky, but it makes the rest of our codex insane. I've always thought turtling a MM Retributors unit would be pretty scary, now I just might try it. Seriously, read this section, it is a game changer (so to speak).
The same is true for any other Altar of War, the missions are usually set up in fashion that the army featuring them REALLY enjoys the situation.
See the "Montka" mission in farsight to see what is a real game-changing mission.
You can reserve how many units you want, you reroll reserves, on top of that your deepstrikes and outflanks gets rerolls, deployment lines are closer then usual, you are almost assured to go first (on a 2+) and you get improved precision shots (5+)
And you win by simply getting more killpoints then there were game turns, regardless on how many losses you took.
Its the most brutal and violent mission ever seen on 40k, even real killpoints pale in comparison.
pretre wrote: Don't we have a thread on this? Mods close one?
I opened this one as the previous thread has 124 pages before it gets to the new Codex and I thought it would be better to have a new thread for a new Codex to avoid confusion.
pretre wrote: Don't we have a thread on this? Mods close one?
I opened this one as the previous thread has 124 pages before it gets to the new Codex and I thought it would be better to have a new thread for a new Codex to avoid confusion.
I feel that people are trying to hard to keep sisters as sisters with the AoF. Imo work with what you have thats strongest, and right now you can mash the hell out of MM immos with flamer SoB inside with flamers and then doms kitted out the same and exorcists to boot. Their mech game is now insanely strong by being able to just crash gunlines with the amount of flamers they pack and then the mass MM arent to friendly either. Take a Cannoness with book for a nice cheap HQ and then slap in some priests and dozer blades to laugh at the enemy. Maybe take some repentia with the cannoness for insult to injury if you want.
TLR sisters don't need AoF as badly as everyone thinks, they aren't how they used to be so don't bother trying to keep them that way. Oh and their mechanized lists are pretty insane.
A GumyBear wrote: I feel that people are trying to hard to keep sisters as sisters with the AoF. Imo work with what you have thats strongest, and right now you can mash the hell out of MM immos with flamer SoB inside with flamers and then doms kitted out the same and exorcists to boot. Their mech game is now insanely strong by being able to just crash gunlines with the amount of flamers they pack and then the mass MM arent to friendly either. Take a Cannoness with book for a nice cheap HQ and then slap in some priests and dozer blades to laugh at the enemy. Maybe take some repentia with the cannoness for insult to injury if you want.
TLR sisters don't need AoF as badly as everyone thinks, they aren't how they used to be so don't bother trying to keep them that way. Oh and their mechanized lists are pretty insane.
I'm curious about this. Supposedly this edition killed Razorspam. You seem to be building the distaff version with Immospam. With the two vehicles being functionally identical but for a 6++ save on the Immo, why does Immospam work when Razorspam doesn't?
Melissia wrote: Don't look at me, I never argued that razorback spam was "killed" (or particularly overpowered in its own right).
I actually had to check my post to see if I misquoted you or something! I haven't seen much evidence that razorspam no longer works either, honestly, but was curious why this was seen as such a huge positive for the AS book.
The reason immo spam can work over razorspam is the fact that all of sisters weapons are designed for close range and the immos can get them their where they need to be fast especially with doms scout/outflanking to make the enemy have to deal with them before they can even think of any other target priority. I did the math in my head and I think you could easily get 9 immos (3 being doms) all with msu sisters with flamers and then 3 exorcists and then a canoness with book then add your own flavor to it (priests or some repentia in DC etc)
I know I'm swapping my usual builds of maybe 3-4 rhinos to hide worthless BSS squads or for 4 flamer doms squads to now 5 Immos, 2-3 Rhinos, and I already own 3 Exorcists.
The Easy Bake Oven™ look tempting versus the pipe organs, might have to try it now that the squad doesn't need to be massive and such a points liability.
Don't forget IG allies and making a lot of guardsdmen fearless with priests. Try shifting a 50 man power blob with meltas or flamers that's also fearless for a mere 25 points more? Gross.
I'm starting to think that three Exorcists is overkill.
I'm using mine as AA batteries and they haven't failed me in the two games I've played, but I feel that the army needs something else.
Retributors may have taken a bit of a nerf, but two - three turns of rending HB isn't bad.
PE are a unit not many people like, but they are a unit that must be answered. A three strong unit can mulch nearly any blob, be it IG, Ork or Nid and they are no slouches in cc vs Terminators and MEQ. Could they be a good distraction unit?
So is this the current thread now?
Argh, mods, lock one or the another.
So, how are people feeling about Canoness vs. Celestine now?
Celestine dies way easier than before and went up in points, and Canoness got access to those cool relics. Problem is that if you start to giving Canoness upgrades that actually allow her to kick some arse, she'll soon be as expensive as Celestine. I'm sure a cheap Canoness with little or no upgrades could work, but frankly, that's just boring.
With Canoness you can get command squad, which now seem nice, not to mention an interesting modelling opportunity.
I was thinking a Canoness with EW cloak and Eviscerator. How stupid is this? I know it is crazy expensive for few S6 attacks, but at least she would be a proper threat in CC and look badass.
If you take the saves reroll and EW relics on a Canoness you have a very sturdy unit to soak up shooting for some squad.
Also whoever said you can only take on relic is mistaken. I just checked the SM codex and it uses similar language "You can exchange one weapon for one relic", it doesn't limit you to only one.
Yep, I've checked the Eldar codex as well, the wording is the same and people can take multiple relics. Canoness with Mantle of Ophelia and Cloak of St. Aspira is now my default HQ. Dunno about the second one yet, probably Uriah, but it somehow feels a bit mish mashed with all the different abilities.
Lanlaorn wrote: If you take the saves reroll and EW relics on a Canoness you have a very sturdy unit to soak up shooting for some squad.
Also whoever said you can only take on relic is mistaken. I just checked the SM codex and it uses similar language "You can exchange one weapon for one relic", it doesn't limit you to only one.
Why some people think SM can take many, is because they have two weapons to exchange. There was a huge debate on that.
However, with AS there is absolutely no ambiguity. It says can take one. That's one, not two, not three, not seventeen. One.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
meh_ wrote: Yep, I've checked the Eldar codex as well, the wording is the same and people can take multiple relics.
Wording is not the same. It is in fact completely different.
This is just the bare minimum so far but here's my thinking Litanies of faith makes the unit autopass their AoF & War Hyms so if you manage to make it into close combat the entire unit can have re-rolls to all their saves including the Rosarius on the Cannoness. Personally I see this as better calue than the Cloak on a single model. Kit the Command squad out with some Power weapons and I think we've got a cheap yet effective beat stick in the army.
At the start of 6th ed Razor spam dropped from top tier because the 5th ed meta was still lingering, armies were heavily geared to kill av11 because they did not adapt to 6th ed yet, and cron air/wraithwing was dominating the meta.
What's different now? The meta is white scars, deamons, necrons, ig/sm, sm/tau, tau/eldar and hell turkeys. The distance between top tier and bottom tier has become much closer than it was in 5th ed. With the exception of serpent spam/tau the meta is heavily geared away from opening av11 boxes and av13+ has become very popular.
schadenfreude wrote: At the start of 6th ed Razor spam dropped from top tier because the 5th ed meta was still lingering, armies were heavily geared to kill av11 because they did not adapt to 6th ed yet, and cron air/wraithwing was dominating the meta.
What's different now? The meta is white scars, deamons, necrons, ig/sm, sm/tau, tau/eldar and hell turkeys. The distance between top tier and bottom tier has become much closer than it was in 5th ed. With the exception of serpent spam/tau the meta is heavily geared away from opening av11 boxes and av13+ has become very popular.
Mech IG is still very strong in this edition with cheap Chimeras and Vet Squads running around. Watched a game where a fellow IG player took over 12 Chimeras with naked vets, tossed in some Leman Russes and Vendettas and went to town. The Mechdar player he was fighting had too many targets to handle and eventually all off his Wave Serpents were brought down through massed Multi-Laser shots or assaulting Veteran Squads.
I can see a lot of converting happening with a lot of plastic flamers...
BTW, can someone please take the apostrophe out of the thread title? Grammar rage imminent
I can't think of any situation where I would want Repentia now. No armor save and a 6++ when not in an assault and the inability to assault from vehicles means they will be butchered every time they step outside the rhino or immolator.
I learned in my game last night that you do not let your Priest accept a challenge. Does not end well.
inmygravenimage wrote: I can see a lot of converting happening with a lot of plastic flamers...
BTW, can someone please take the apostrophe out of the thread title? Grammar rage imminent
Dannyevilguy wrote: I can't think of any situation where I would want Repentia now. No armor save and a 6++ when not in an assault and the inability to assault from vehicles means they will be butchered every time they step outside the rhino or immolator.
I learned in my game last night that you do not let your Priest accept a challenge. Does not end well.
Yea shame about the Repentia, losing the FNP was about the only way they could survive long enough to maybe get a few models into assault. My gaming group allows assault from stationary vehicles as a house rule so I'll still run them but it's a nerf for sure.
The new Repentia are brutally bad, which is a shame because I found them to be a really effective unit in the WD 'dex, particuarly in late 5th but even into 6th, with the right useage. Now, however, they've lost what little defense vs. shooting they once enjoyed, and I honestly feel like deploying Repentia is just handing your opponent 85+ points.
Im putting togeter a list, but a few issues keep bothering me, tht I hope will be FaQ'd soon. I don't use Facebook, so I'm not sure if these have been brought up on the Digital Editions webpage, but Im not the first to notice any of these so hopefully we'll get a ruling soon.
So, the codex states that we roll for our Assault phase Acts of Faith immediately before the unit makes attacks. That completely invalidates the Command Squad's Endless Crusade, since Fleet and Move through Cover are both useful long before any blows are struck. Additionally, Repentia's Spirit of the Martyr, which grants them their version of FnP, must be rolled for immeidatly before they swing, ehich is Initiative 3 if te Mistress is still alive, or Initiative 1 if not. Either way, it's probably too late, since most enemies strike before initiative 3, and your whole squad will already be dead. On the other hand, War Hymns are rolled for at the beginning of the fight subphase, this would be a much better time for Spirit of the Martyr.
Having a priest in a unit, RaW, orvents them from enjoying the benefits of your Warlord's Martyrdom, as the prist does not have Acts of Faith. It seems like an oversight, but it may very well be intentional, as why else stipulate that the unit must be 'entirely' composed of models with Act of Fairh?
Condemnor Confusion. I personally think it's one Perils per hit, I mean the thing is only 10 points after all.
Seraphim Superior Eviscerator- apparently differen editions of the codex have different rules here?
It might have been discussed elsewhere, however I think the smashing preacher might be an unsung hero just yet.
A preacher with a power mace is S5, Ap4. Given Smash, he's now S5, Ap2. If he ACTUALLY Smashes, he's at initiative, S8, Ap2! Answer challenges with your preacher against opponents that strike at initiative slower than you that are T4 and you are clocking them out with instant death. Not to mention you have hatred and fearless.
40 pts for the best upgrade to you sister squad or conclaves. Sneaky, at initiative, power fisting!
TheKbob wrote: It might have been discussed elsewhere, however I think the smashing preacher might be an unsung hero just yet.
A preacher with a power mace is S5, Ap4. Given Smash, he's now S5, Ap2. If he ACTUALLY Smashes, he's at initiative, S8, Ap2! Answer challenges with your preacher against opponents that strike at initiative slower than you that are T4 and you are clocking them out with instant death. Not to mention you have hatred and fearless.
40 pts for the best upgrade to you sister squad or conclaves. Sneaky, at initiative, power fisting!
I have a new Sunday afternoon conversion project...
Repentia have had it rough for a while and I was really hoping for them to be usable again but I guess they are just shelf siters for now. Back onto immo spam filled with flamers, how do you think these would fair in the current meta? The quad flamer doms is nothing to laugh at and will most likely only live to have one round of shooting so the AoF thing isn't too big of a deal for them.
The MSU will give tau a hard time since they excel at focus firing and can't really do that against this list.
Serpent spam might do something to this list but they will need to work hard to do it since they will need to hold their serpent shields for the immenent mass of pens from all the MM and exorcists then the guardians fall over to flamers (DA should die all the same).
I could see daemon flying circus giving them problems due to lack of AA but they can just place fodder squads of sob as stop gaps to prevent charges on the immos and then focus fire them to death after they ground.
A GumyBear wrote: Repentia have had it rough for a while and I was really hoping for them to be usable again but I guess they are just shelf siters for now. Back onto immo spam filled with flamers, how do you think these would fair in the current meta? The quad flamer doms is nothing to laugh at and will most likely only live to have one round of shooting so the AoF thing isn't too big of a deal for them.
The MSU will give tau a hard time since they excel at focus firing and can't really do that against this list.
Serpent spam might do something to this list but they will need to work hard to do it since they will need to hold their serpent shields for the immenent mass of pens from all the MM and exorcists then the guardians fall over to flamers (DA should die all the same).
I could see daemon flying circus giving them problems due to lack of AA but they can just place fodder squads of sob as stop gaps to prevent charges on the immos and then focus fire them to death after they ground.
Heavy flamers are way cheaper. Bring some and the DA make that lovely burning pointy ear smell all the of the Imperium enjoys!
I like taking her with the book since its cheap and being a cheap hq makes it better and allows for more bodies on the board which means more immos and I think we all know how I feel on immos with the new dex
A GumyBear wrote: I like taking her with the book since its cheap and being a cheap hq makes it better and allows for more bodies on the board which means more immos and I think we all know how I feel on immos with the new dex
A GumyBear wrote: I like taking her with the book since its cheap and being a cheap hq makes it better and allows for more bodies on the board which means more immos and I think we all know how I feel on immos with the new dex
No weapon upgrades at all?
For my 2,000 point list I swapped out celestine for a normal cannoness so i could squeeze in a squad of 10 celestians.
There wasn't room for more equipment so I had to leave it be.
I'm not incredibly sold on any of the relics anyway especially not a priest who I won't use and everyone who can use it is T3, and what's EW going to matter to a unit shooting at a T3 model with only 3 wounds anyway. Buckets of S6 everywhere
A GumyBear wrote: I like taking her with the book since its cheap and being a cheap hq makes it better and allows for more bodies on the board which means more immos and I think we all know how I feel on immos with the new dex
No weapon upgrades at all?
I take mine with just a Boltgun and the book. It's worked really well so far.
The Canoness and the other single model HQ are not good. Why spend points on something not good, when you can invest points elsewhere?
Keeping the silly bint nice and cheap is a must, IMO.
Not a lot of wargear doesn't mean they aren't characterful. She's Canoness Serenia, reader of hymns and bringer of redemption through the power of the Emperor's Faith (and mass-reactive gyro-bolts).
I'd probably give mine a blade of admonition (so I can use a model I converted for blessed weapons in 3e) and put her in a command squad of power weapon wielding celestians.
I take mine with just a Boltgun and the book. It's worked really well so far.
The Canoness and the other single model HQ are not good. Why spend points on something not good, when you can invest points elsewhere?
I understand the logic of it, seems just, you know, kinda boring. I like making characters... characterful.
Mine is...
Beware... Fluff...
Spoiler:
The Order of the Iron Lady is a fairly new order, formed during the later years of the last century. As soon as the Order was created, it's Sisters were sent on a First Pilgrimage from Terra to Ophelia VII, but they never reached the final stop on their journey. With their ships lost in the Warp during a freak storm, the Order found themselves on the edge of the Galaxy deep within the area known as the Ghoul Stars.
Upon reaching this hazardous area of space, the Order were ambushed by a massive fleet of Chaos Warships of the Black Legion. With their numbers dwindled, the Order were forced to land on the Night World of Arbor XII - a desolate Deathworld with no sunlight and dangerous beasts that hunted both the Black Legion and the Order.
During the seventy-four day conflict, Canoness Superior Ardat Arkashi, the last of the command staff was murdered on the field of battle by Mortius Krux, a Lord of the Black Legion. While the blood was still warm from her wounds and Lord Krux roared in victory, a single Acolyte of the Sisterhood, Sister Hilda, stood in front of the huge fallen Astartes and challenged him. Sister Hilda, a fresh recruit, was the attendant for the Canoness and was not schooled in the arts of combat. She took the sword of her fallen leader and stood firm against Krux.
While he dismissed the challenger as unworthy, Krux ordered one of his lieutenants to cut the upstart down. The fallen Astartes provoked Hilda and feigned attacks against her as he thought that his next victim was hardly worth the glory for the Chaos Gods. Hilda stood firm, closed her eyes and quietly uttered prayers to the Emperor. The Black Legionnaire, looked on in amusement and as he went to feign another attack against Hilda, she made a stunning riposte and cut off the Astartes' head. Shocked by the move by this mere human girl, Krux ordered his retinue to kill Hilda, but one by one each member of the Retinue was cut down, all while Hilda uttered prayers to the Emperor, her eyes firmly closed.
When Krux was the only Chaos Marine left, he attacked with the fervour and ferocity of his patron, Khorne. His savagery and sheer brute force was too powerful for Hilda and he disarmed her with a flick of his axe. He then swatted Hilda away as if a human would swat away a fly. He stalked her as she attempted to crawl away on her belly and then reached down to grab her by the throat. He took her tiny head in his hands and slowly pushed through her left eye into the pit of her skull, but as Krux did this, Hilda did not scream. He threw her aside like a piece of meat and carried on with the battle.
Hilda crawled her way over to her book and the ornate Boltgun of her fallen Canoness. Exhausted, battered and weary, Hilda read the psalm that the book was open to. She shakily took aim with the Boltgun and while she uttered the words, she pulled the trigger. The shot pinged off the side of Krux's horned helm, angering him to the point of blind rage. He lifted his axe and slowly stepped towards the fallen Sister. Hilda kept repeating the words of the psalm and fired again and again, each shot hitting the giant Chaos Marine, but not causing any real damage.
Then as the Chaos Lord was about to bring down his axe upon the fallen Sister, a bright light shone. It blinded Krux with it's brilliance and he stumbled away from Hilda as he covered his eyes from the blinding light. Even his enhanced vision and helm couldn't shield him from the light's intensity.
Hilda, seeing the Chaos Lord had faltered, picked up a Power Maul and proceeded to smash it repeatedly into Krux. Krux was weakened. Each blow caused him great pain and as Hilda's unrelenting attacks continued, her prayers and psalms only got louder and more fervent. As Krux fell to his knees, Hilda struck his helm with the Maul, sending it flying to the dirt.
Exhausted, Hilda picked up the Boltgun and as she commended her prayer to the Emperor, she pressed the barrel of the Boltgun against the Traitor Lord's head and pulled the trigger.
The act of a single young Sister, won the day for her Order.
The Space Marines of the Death Spectres Chapter, arrived and formed a relief detail to rescue and recover the Sisters that were still alive. Hilda, was deemed to have been touched by the Light of the Emperor and that it was the Emperor who saved her and what was left of the Order.
Cardinal Argus Thade declared that Hilda was a beacon of the Emperor's Holy Light and was promoted to Canoness of the remnants of the Order of the Iron Lady, taking the name Hilda Tarth. When given the choice of returning to Terra to start their pilgrimage again, Hilda decided that the remaining Sisters would form a Mission and that they would start their pilgrimage again from Arbor XII.
With just a single ship and no more than a hundred Sisters, the Order of the Iron Lady started their journey. Along the way, Hilda Tarth became a well schooled tactician and warrior, but what she lacked in experience and combat prowess, she more than made up for in the strength of her faith. Something that every member of her Mission has fallen back to in times of great need.
Good ways to equip a command squad? Very eager to take one of these, but will probably need quite a bit of converting done, so it'd be nice to have a clearer idea of what to do beforehand. I'm thinking that lots of combi weapons or power weapons would be very fun, but what'll be most effective?
Troike wrote: Good ways to equip a command squad? Very eager to take one of these, but will probably need quite a bit of converting done, so it'd be nice to have a clearer idea of what to do beforehand. I'm thinking that lots of combi weapons or power weapons would be very fun, but what'll be most effective?
Depends on what you want to do with them.
I mean hell, if you have a lot of marines in your meta, you could even try equipping them with combiplasmas!
Troike wrote: Good ways to equip a command squad? Very eager to take one of these, but will probably need quite a bit of converting done, so it'd be nice to have a clearer idea of what to do beforehand. I'm thinking that lots of combi weapons or power weapons would be very fun, but what'll be most effective?
I'm 4-0 with this list so far and I'm very happy with it's composition.
Things to remember...
The Canoness and most other HQ in this army are bad. Best way to combat this is to take them lean and save points for other stuff.
Canoness usually die horribly in CC. I chose to keep mine at the back in a HB Command Squad. Between this unit and the Exorcists, they won me a very one sided victory vs Tau.
Multi Meltas on anything except an Immolator, are bad. It's a wasted turn if you are having to move. Either HF or HB are my weapon of choice here, but as my army already has a ton of Flamers per squad, I went for the long range HB option.
Troike wrote: Good ways to equip a command squad? Very eager to take one of these, but will probably need quite a bit of converting done, so it'd be nice to have a clearer idea of what to do beforehand. I'm thinking that lots of combi weapons or power weapons would be very fun, but what'll be most effective?
I personally like the EZ-bake oven where you just fill them with heavy flamers since heavy flamers are great and make tau very crispy from one round of shooting
Stormfather - I just came to the same conclusion you had about GW actually not knowing their own rules when it comes to Command Squad and Repentias. Why give a unit Move through cover in a prayer that can not be used in the movement phase but only be used in the assault phase? And according to the Special rules, Move through cover doesn't affect charge ranges. Or if we are to follow the RAW on page 18 not be used at all since we are to use the Act before rolling to hit. The same goes for Repentias... I posted in the YMDC to get other peoples opinion on this since I am taking my Sisters out to a tournament next week and I will actually field Repentias (and a Penitent since I am being a power gamer) and would really wish that I am not the only one who hopes that RAI (and a FAQ sometime late 2016) will say that we can make the units play the way they obviously should and not the way they are actually written...
Has anyone else found anything else that is broken, rules wise, when it comes to Acts of Faith?
God I just want to slam the face of anyone who says "EZ Bake Oven" in to a wall somewhere. Not because I hate the tactic, but because I hate the unfortunate implications of the phrase.
But that aside, given the army's focus on shooting, I still think the command squad works best as a countercharge unit.
Melissia wrote: God I just want to slam the face of anyone who says "EZ Bake Oven" in to a wall somewhere. Not because I hate the tactic, but because I hate the unfortunate implications of the phrase.
But that aside, given the army's focus on shooting, I still think the command squad works best as a countercharge unit.
Melissia wrote: God I just want to slam the face of anyone who says "EZ Bake Oven" in to a wall somewhere. Not because I hate the tactic, but because I hate the unfortunate implications of the phrase.
Agusto wrote: Stormfather - I just came to the same conclusion you had about GW actually not knowing their own rules when it comes to Command Squad and Repentias. Why give a unit Move through cover in a prayer that can not be used in the movement phase but only be used in the assault phase? And according to the Special rules, Move through cover doesn't affect charge ranges. Or if we are to follow the RAW on page 18 not be used at all since we are to use the Act before rolling to hit. The same goes for Repentias... I posted in the YMDC to get other peoples opinion on this since I am taking my Sisters out to a tournament next week and I will actually field Repentias (and a Penitent since I am being a power gamer) and would really wish that I am not the only one who hopes that RAI (and a FAQ sometime late 2016) will say that we can make the units play the way they obviously should and not the way they are actually written...
Has anyone else found anything else that is broken, rules wise, when it comes to Acts of Faith?
Agusto
"Or if we are to follow the RAW on page 18 not be used at all since we are to use the Act before rolling to hit"
I saw someone else comment on this as well. There is nothing broken about the ECAoF. People are interpreting id est as a limitation, it is not, it is a clarification, a restatement, etc.
AoF "A unit with the Act of Faith special rule can attempt to use its Act of Faith immediately before it acts during a phase; i.e..."
The i.e. goes on to provide examples, not limitations. You are not restricted to ONLY use the AoF "immediately before ... strikes blows in the Assault phase..." That is an example of when to use AoF
If you misinterpret the i.e. the only CCAoF that works is the Repentia one. Clearly this is not the case.
"Why give a unit Move through cover in a prayer that can not be used in the movement phase but only be used in the assault phase? And according to the Special rules, Move through cover doesn't affect charge ranges."
EC "This Act of Faith can be used in your Assault phase..."
This is all you need to know about this AoF, it can be used in your assault phase. At the start of your assault phase, before you declare a charge. While MtC is more useful in the movement phase it is still uuseful in the assault phase. It means your unit does not have to take Dangerous Terrain tests on the changes (like when they have to charge through the smoking wreckage of their own AV11 Immolator or your opponents Wave Serpent). You are correct in that it has no impact on the assault distance, but this is why the unit also gains Fleet!
So, you can have a unit of 5 Power Axe wielding Celestians which get better than average charge distance, don't lose models from charging through smoking wreckage, re-roll armor saves (because you added a priest or two with an Eviscerator right!) with 4 A on the charge, re-rolling to hit (remember those priests), re-rolling to wound their S5 AP2 powerweapons (cause you added a second priest right!) who are Fearless, who will win most combats and then they get to run down their enemy with a Sweeping Advance with 4 (cause you put a Cannonness in this unit right!) + d6 +d3.
Don't get me wrong, this is not the best unit available to us as it is fragile to shooting, pricey, etc, but if you can get it into combat it will do OK against most things. 20 Hounds, maybe not, but other things...
I think the biggest issue with the above is that AS are bad in CC.
I see this army as a mid to close range shooty army that needs to be able to Alpha Strike.
They have good maneuverability and have fair survivability when compared to other shooty armies like Tau and Dark Eldar.
On the subject of Dark Eldar, I'm playing my AS army like I did my Haemy Coven DE - MSU with lots of flamer weapons on a hard hitting anti armour platform (SSB in Immolator) with harder hitting anti vehicle back up (Dominions and Exorcists).
I think the counter to CC armies is going to end up being a wall of sisters with a priest in there. As long as there aren't any AP 3 or better CC weapons, 20 sisters should require 180 wounds to put down as long as you keep passing war hymn checks. (rerollabe 3+ is 1/9 wounding hits actually creates a casualty).
Any word on Arco-flaggellant spam? Even as an ally force, you could take 60 Arcos for 600 points plus priest costs. Even at I3, they get 5 str 5 attacks on the charge and are only 10 points each.
I haven't heard anything on arco spam. They probably won't work since they lack any reliably fast way to get into ccbecause rhinos/immos aren't assault vehicles which means a t3 charge at best and that's if they don't get shot up before hand and survive overwatch
Right. Even 60 of them won't really hold up long to serpent spam which stands a real chance of gunning down all 60 of them in a turn... They average 10 shots per tank and with it all TL they hit with pretty much everything. No FNP for you when it's str 6+...
However, against everything else that's a 60 man wall that you have to deal with. I guess Ork boyz just do the job better... Oh well.
Pyrrhus of Epirus wrote: The i.e. goes on to provide examples, not limitations. You are not restricted to ONLY use the AoF "immediately before ... strikes blows in the Assault phase..." That is an example of when to use AoF
Incorrect. You, like most people, are making the mistake of confusing i.e. with e.g..
I.E. translates to "in other words", it is used to provide an exhaustive list.
E.G. translates roughly to "for example", and is used to provide non-exhaustive lists.
So when the codex says "i.e. immediately before the unit moves in the Movement phase, shoots (or runs) in the shooting phase, or strikes blows in the Assault phase", it means those three exact times.
Do I think that's Rules as Intended? No. Is it Rules as Written? Yes.
I played Speed Freak Orks last night vs Immolator Spam / Battle Conclave spam and tabled him turn 3, 2000 pts, I lost 8 sisters, 2 arcos and 3 Immolators. He did have 20 Storm Boys and 5 koptas in reserve that never made the table, which helped.
A 5 man Arco Squad with 1 DCA would get charged by 12 boyz and wipe them before they swung. Trick is to hide them behind the transports and run the transports in groups of 2.
Even with Night Fighting and a CFF all of his vehicles were down turn 2 (which isn't saying much against Orks). 3 sets of Arcos, 3 sets of troops and one Seraphim squad finished off all those boyz that were now in the open.
Would this have done as well against Tau or Eldar, no, I would lose 2-4 Immolators a turn and the scouting Dominions with melta probably do not get to do anything all game, but it was fun to play and I finally got to field the 20 arcos I have had since the WH days.
Only got 2 AoF off all game and those both required LH. So I recommend that upgrade on about 1/3 of your Immolators. SI is pointless on the Doms as they are dead before they get to shoot again, but it was useful on the 15 man BSS sitting on a quad gun.
Never got to see Priests in action as they were with my troops and my troops were never assaulted.
A battle conclave with 2 priests is pretty brutal. Re-rolling 3+ invulnerables.. Makes you feel like a deathstar.
Only problem is getting them into combat.
3 Exorcists, 3 dominions with 4 melta+combi-melta. Took down stuff ranging from flyers (Stormtalons) to infantry (Centurions) with ease.
My small 5-man sister troop squads kept hiding as much as possible.. I don't think I'll run 10-woman squads anymore but I might go try a 20-woman squad for laughs.
Sororitas Command Squad, had my Canonness and Uriah in it. Did win some combats against combat-squad tacticals but not very impressive.
I might go try Celestine + 2 Priests + Battle Conclave next time.
Blew most of my acts of faith in turn 1/2 ... Ignores Cover on Dominions makes a lot of stuff cry.
Pyrrhus of Epirus wrote: The i.e. goes on to provide examples, not limitations. You are not restricted to ONLY use the AoF "immediately before ... strikes blows in the Assault phase..." That is an example of when to use AoF
Incorrect. You, like most people, are making the mistake of confusing i.e. with e.g..
I.E. translates to "in other words", it is used to provide an exhaustive list.
E.G. translates roughly to "for example", and is used to provide non-exhaustive lists.
So when the codex says "i.e. immediately before the unit moves in the Movement phase, shoots (or runs) in the shooting phase, or strikes blows in the Assault phase", it means those three exact times.
Do I think that's Rules as Intended? No. Is it Rules as Written? Yes.
I will respectfully disagree. Id Est translats as "that is." I taught Latin after uni for a few years, I didn't google "i.e." and get 5 answers, 4 of which were wrong. I.E. provides clarification, nothing more. That is how it has been used for about 1600 years in texts. It is not an exhaustive list, just a clarification. Remember that the old school GW guys were all ex-Catholic school boys, they know their Latin, there are countless examples in GW lore where they make decent attempts at new Latin words with plausible declinations.
The rules says to use the AoF immediately before you act... And then provides clarification. For the movement and shooting phases there is really only so much you have the option of doing, so it appears to be an exhaustive list. But in the Assault phase you have sub-phases. You use the AoF immediately before you act in the appropriately part of that phase.
Exempli Gratia is for example. But this is also not an exhaustive list of examples. Just some examples.
I am not sure why you are saying that one provides an exhaustive list and the other doesn't. Neither does, they are both merely used to provide clarification, one through restatement and one by examples.
Am I the only one who thinks that Cruddace has somehow missed the introduction of 6th ED? The list he has written, even though it keeps dwindling down in sheer number of units available everytime he touches a keyboard, would have made a pretty powerful 5th ED army! Imagine our new A.S: without any fliers around to bother us (hence no AA needed and thus non given to us) and with the ability to charge out of wehicles still there and working (hence the nice, but fragile, CC units we have). It would have been... better, to say the least.
Should anyone contact him just to make sure he knows that the rest of us (unfortunately) plays a different game than he does?
Pyrrhus of Epirus wrote: The i.e. goes on to provide examples, not limitations. You are not restricted to ONLY use the AoF "immediately before ... strikes blows in the Assault phase..." That is an example of when to use AoF
Incorrect. You, like most people, are making the mistake of confusing i.e. with e.g..
I.E. translates to "in other words", it is used to provide an exhaustive list.
E.G. translates roughly to "for example", and is used to provide non-exhaustive lists.
So when the codex says "i.e. immediately before the unit moves in the Movement phase, shoots (or runs) in the shooting phase, or strikes blows in the Assault phase", it means those three exact times.
Do I think that's Rules as Intended? No. Is it Rules as Written? Yes.
I will respectfully disagree. Id Est translats as "that is." I taught Latin after uni for a few years, I didn't google "i.e." and get 5 answers, 4 of which were wrong. I.E. provides clarification, nothing more. That is how it has been used for about 1600 years in texts. It is not an exhaustive list, just a clarification. Remember that the old school GW guys were all ex-Catholic school boys, they know their Latin, there are countless examples in GW lore where they make decent attempts at new Latin words with plausible declinations.
The rules says to use the AoF immediately before you act... And then provides clarification. For the movement and shooting phases there is really only so much you have the option of doing, so it appears to be an exhaustive list. But in the Assault phase you have sub-phases. You use the AoF immediately before you act in the appropriately part of that phase.
Exempli Gratia is for example. But this is also not an exhaustive list of examples. Just some examples.
I am not sure why you are saying that one provides an exhaustive list and the other doesn't. Neither does, they are both merely used to provide clarification, one through restatement and one by examples.
In english, "that is" and "in other words" mean the same thing. If we were to edit Streamdragon's post to swap those two phrases it would change nothing about his argument. You're the one who said they're providing examples not limitations. If they know their latin so well certainly they would have used e.g. in that circumstance, right?
Anyway this also probably should go to a YMDC thread.
Quick question ... can I take Uriah with twenty sisters, five priests added to battle conclaves ( maybe two large ones - how many can you have in each?) maybe three exorcits and two HB immos with repentia and have a feasible small list? Is all that legal now. I know Arcos are cheaper by 30% so that's a start. Even two large sisters squads only with priests would be a pita to remove I would think?
Quick question ... can I take Uriah with twenty sisters, five priests added to battle conclaves ( maybe two large ones - how many can you have in each?) maybe three exorcits and two HB immos with repentia and have a feasible small list? Is all that legal now. I know Arcos are cheaper by 30% so that's a start. Even two large sisters squads only with priests would be a pita to remove I would think?
Uriah - 100
2x 20 Sisters ~ 280 or so
5 Priest - 250
Battle Conclaves (10 each) - 100 each
3 Exorcists - 375
Repentia with Immos - 145 or so ea
The blob really is not targeting so much as staying alive and presenting a problem for your opponent. The heavy work is done by battle conclaves, repentia, immos and exorcists - maybe behind an AGL too.
Was crunching the numbers last knight to try to figure out what the sweet spot for sisters are.
The problem as always is how they deal with AA, and the question of if 3 exorcists and 5 immolators with t/l MM will be enough to run pure sisters.
If not than you have to look to either an avenger ~180 points fully kitted, or IG allies, say 6 saber defense platforms which while super effective AA but eats 440 points in an already points blocked army.
Fast Attack
Dominion x5 4x meltagun immolator with laud hailers
Dominion x5 4x meltagun immolator with laud hailers
Heavy Support
3x Exorcists
This gives you a nice blob with celestine Uriah, and a 2nd priest, an amazing tarpit unit in the crusaders with priest, that can reroll saves in combat, 2 scouting 4 meltagun units that ignore cover 5 immolators and 3 exorcits.
Sisters have a few questions going foward that will have to be resolved/playtested.
One is how they deal with AA, are TLMM shots good enough followed by exorcits or do things like wraithcron give them trouble.
Is MSU better than having a character blob, for the same cost as the blob with 2 special chars you can get priests on every unit and 2-3 more immolator MSU squads
The 3rd is the psyker boltgun ruling, how it gets ruled on by either GW or Tournaments is a very important aspect to how competative sisters will be.
Screamerstar and Seer council are nightmare matchups to sisters if they can't kill them with the boltgun.
I could see it going one of three ways, this is not a rules thing its just how they will be played eventually.
1) they peril every psyker in the unit, sisters are basically the codex to beat.
2) they peril a random psyker, sisters now have to try to cram condemnors everywhere, we will see HQ sisters command squads with 5 and MSU packing another 6-9, and it becomes a fight to see if the sisters can perils the right seeker and or get hits on enough warlocks to turn the tide. The problem becomes can they keep the HQ squad alive to shoot first overall this becomes a fight/dice roll battle.
3) it hits the nearest pskyer to the shooting unit, screamer star will be weight of fired off, Seer council will tank the wounds with farseers and put a serious hurt on sisters.
@Pretre - Good call, the adobe viewer is much better than any ive used before.
Ive got a game set up for Wednesday this week, Im probably going to run the following:
Canoness - Cloak, PW, Combi-flamer, Rosarius goes with smaller ret squad
5 Priests - 2 Power Mauls, 3 autoguns (1 priest in each ret and BSS squad)
2 x 5 BSS with Flamer and HF In Repressors
1 x 20 BSS with Flamer and HB
2 x 5 Doms with 4 meltaguns, and combi melta. 1 squad in rhino, 1 squad in Immolator (i only have 1 immolator at present)
1 x 9 Seraphim 2 xDual Hand flamer, Power axe + Melta bombs on VSS
1 x 9 Rets with 4 Heavy Flamers, VSS in Repressor
1 x 8 Rets with 4 Heavy Flamers in Represssor
1 Exorcist
ADL with comms relay
- 2000pts (but single FoC)
Ill be playing against either Tau or Black Templars.
Templars would be the easier match up in my head as i would just jump all my flamers towards their squads and put the wounds down to take them off the board, casualties dont really matter on my side as nothing is going to be running away. If the rets get charged once they are out of their repressors then they can pack a little bit of damage potential with the power maul priests, and the canoness knocking around too. If she dies then everything else in the army auto passes AoF too. The doms can pop land raiders etc and then go hunting for other stuff. Big block of BSS can sit on an objective at the back behind my ADL and whether some fire. other BSS can go for other objectives when they coast is clear
With Tau i think ill have to reserve the big BSS squad and get them to walk onto a back field objective late on in the game. The Doms can go after broadsides and hammerheads from outflank i reckon, and the seraphim can jump up using cover, or possibly deepstrike and burn the tau troops. Exorcist will sit there and shoot anything that looks juicy. Comms relay will mean i most-likely to get my reserves when i want them.
Any big pit-falls that can be seen? I feel a little light on bodies (but i am used to bringing full repressors)
Thatguyoverthere11 wrote: I think the counter to CC armies is going to end up being a wall of sisters with a priest in there. As long as there aren't any AP 3 or better CC weapons, 20 sisters should require 180 wounds to put down as long as you keep passing war hymn checks. (rerollabe 3+ is 1/9 wounding hits actually creates a casualty).
Any word on Arco-flaggellant spam? Even as an ally force, you could take 60 Arcos for 600 points plus priest costs. Even at I3, they get 5 str 5 attacks on the charge and are only 10 points each.
A GumyBear wrote: I haven't heard anything on arco spam. They probably won't work since they lack any reliably fast way to get into ccbecause rhinos/immos aren't assault vehicles which means a t3 charge at best and that's if they don't get shot up before hand and survive overwatch
I'm tempted to build some and run them, but that's because I kind of want to run massed Foot Sisters and they'd be a good screening unit.
Just proxy them for now and run some friendly test games. I don't think they'll be great but I love having Redemptionists in any form, so that's what I'm going to do.
pretre wrote: Just proxy them for now and run some friendly test games. I don't think they'll be great but I love having Redemptionists in any form, so that's what I'm going to do.
I'm thinking of building Empire Flagellants because I want crazed nutters who fight at S5 FOR THE EMPEROR.
Flagellants are good (I just added them to my wants list on my trade thread) because they come with tons of awesome bits and, most importantly, huge ass flails.
With a little work, they would make great arcos counts-as.
I think a sprinkling of chaos marauder bits and whatever's in your bits box would make it pretty perfect.
My biggest issue is the local meta plays about 1.5k so I really have to choose what I run. Might cut back to 2 Exorcists from three since they either do well or are useless for the game and there are decent options in the book.
pretre wrote: Oh, if I had them, I'd run them for giggles.
I own a few but I never got more than 1 assembled. Danged disaster of a model to build, even with pinning and green stiff. Makes me want to solder it together.
I'm happy to see the old Immy-spam list back in all its glory. Although I don't have enough meltaguns to to outfit two Dominion squads as posted above, I'll be dusting off my Sisters for some serious smack down! <of course, got to buy the new digi-dex first>
Frankly, I really like the Pen engines. Its one of the models/fluff that got me into a sisters collection. Only problem I've had with it is that the arms only have 1 attachment point, so if you magnetize the heavy metal model, the arms will hang at its sides.
That, and they're pretty much unplayable with the current rules. really, rhino stats?!? sigh...
war wrote: Frankly, I really like the Pen engines. Its one of the models/fluff that got me into a sisters collection. Only problem I've had with it is that the arms only have 1 attachment point, so if you magnetize the heavy metal model, the arms will hang at its sides.
That, and they're pretty much unplayable with the current rules. really, rhino stats?!? sigh...
Rhino stats are less the issue and more the cost combined with being Open-Topped that really does them in.
war wrote: Frankly, I really like the Pen engines. Its one of the models/fluff that got me into a sisters collection. Only problem I've had with it is that the arms only have 1 attachment point, so if you magnetize the heavy metal model, the arms will hang at its sides.
That, and they're pretty much unplayable with the current rules. really, rhino stats?!? sigh...
Rhino stats are less the issue and more the cost combined with being Open-Topped that really does them in.
They really should be monstrous creatures, given the precedent set by DreadKnights.
I'm gonna have to place an Anvil Industries order for special weapons for my Forge Father counts-as SOB. And as a side note i'm going to have to find a good alternative vehicle to the rhino. Though at least my squats will look like 6 will fit in the transport
war wrote: Frankly, I really like the Pen engines. Its one of the models/fluff that got me into a sisters collection. Only problem I've had with it is that the arms only have 1 attachment point, so if you magnetize the heavy metal model, the arms will hang at its sides.
That, and they're pretty much unplayable with the current rules. really, rhino stats?!? sigh...
wish it had initiative 5 and white dwarf rules and put in as an elite unit
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jancoran wrote: Theres no reason to take only one relic. Just one of each per army
no one is saying you can not take multiple relics. it's legal as long as you give one to each modal
war wrote: Frankly, I really like the Pen engines. Its one of the models/fluff that got me into a sisters collection. Only problem I've had with it is that the arms only have 1 attachment point, so if you magnetize the heavy metal model, the arms will hang at its sides.
That, and they're pretty much unplayable with the current rules. really, rhino stats?!? sigh...
wish it had initiative 5 and white dwarf rules and put in as an elite unit
Then it'd cost 150 points and knowing GW explode when it was shot. Literally.
thats what i use. guess i take it for granted that there are worse readers. though, i did had to write the armory list on a separate page to make it easier to equip my units
Yeah i think I'll read ti again, but it is not one per model I dont think. It says you can take ITEMS from that list. Thats plural last time I checked. Unfortunately my codex is on my Kindle and I left it in a friends car or I'd already have it looked up, but i think it ridiculous to sugest that you can have only one per model.
Rhino stats + everyone seems to have a grenade + init 3 when it seems that everyone has Init 4 = hardly gets to swing.
Idk, I liked the WD extra attack per wound thing. I thought it was fluffy, and it was pretty cool when I was able to get one into a swarm of kroot.
i'll still use them in non-tourney games because I like the figure.
It would be cool if they did something to make them better. I would love to see what the thing be the one durable thing in the army.
I guess I have an image of a pen engine running across the field with a tortured driver desperately pushing straight through a wall of enemy fire and heedless of having parts of her body getting ripped to shreds. Salvation through death, and nothing else matters.
Jancoran wrote: Yeah i think I'll read ti again, but it is not one per model I dont think. It says you can take ITEMS from that list. Thats plural last time I checked. Unfortunately my codex is on my Kindle and I left it in a friends car or I'd already have it looked up, but i think it ridiculous to sugest that you can have only one per model.
ECCLESIARCHY RELICS A model can take one of the following. Only one of each Ecclesiarchy Relic can be taken per army.
It seems very clear to me. Each model can take one relic, no more. No relic can be duplicated in the army.
Jancoran wrote: Yeah i think I'll read ti again, but it is not one per model I dont think. It says you can take ITEMS from that list. Thats plural last time I checked. Unfortunately my codex is on my Kindle and I left it in a friends car or I'd already have it looked up, but i think it ridiculous to sugest that you can have only one per model.
Thread on this matter is here, with rule quotes that should clear the confusion
Jancoran wrote: Yeah i think I'll read ti again, but it is not one per model I dont think. It says you can take ITEMS from that list. Thats plural last time I checked. Unfortunately my codex is on my Kindle and I left it in a friends car or I'd already have it looked up, but i think it ridiculous to sugest that you can have only one per model.
The thing is the restriction doesn't come from the unit entry but the relic entry itself as that governs how you may purchase wargear from that specific list.
Jancoran wrote: Yeah i think I'll read ti again, but it is not one per model I dont think. It says you can take ITEMS from that list. Thats plural last time I checked. Unfortunately my codex is on my Kindle and I left it in a friends car or I'd already have it looked up, but i think it ridiculous to sugest that you can have only one per model.
The thing is the restriction doesn't come from the unit entry but the relic entry itself as that governs how you may purchase wargear from that specific list.
Yeah, the Canoness "may take items from the Melee Weapons, Ranged Weapons, and Ecclesiarchy Relics lists." So even if the rules only allowed you to take a single "item" from each of those lists, the phrasing "may take items" would still be correct.
So what I'm currently considering for a new list is just barebones as I have yet to actually get the new 'Dex
but two small Conclaves with Priests, DCA and Crusaders (I'm not sold on AC)
A 20 girl battle block lead by Uriah
season with 5 girl teams in MM Immos for tank hunting (Probably just go with Dominions here) some Mech 10 girl blocks for objective taking, and flavor with Exorcists for fire support. (I'll be needing a second Exorcist >.>; or converting one up I suppose)
I know Priests are useful for their ability to be sprinkled in and buff our cc and staying power for our other units but what if we combined them together?
It's an expensive idea and probably a bad one but I find something appealing about it, and they wouldn't necessarily need to be by themselves, they could go into a 20 strong sisters unit or possibly a conclave made up of just crusaders for the lols
Getting them by themselves into combat would be hard without having meat shields in front of them (this is where crusaders or massive amounts of sisters or a vechile losing blocking would come in, they do have invuln safes but canoness can be id'd easily and priests have the same problem but only have 1 wound)
You automatically, because of litanies, obtain all war hymns in the unit but having extra priests around just to be safe would be a good idea, this'll will probably get faq'd i imagined to disallow units from benefitting from more than one war hymn at the same time but for now...
1 Unit
125
Canoness
Litanies of Faith
Rosarius
Eviserator
55
Priest
Evierserator
55
Priest
Evierserator
55
Priest
Evierserator
55
Priest
Evierserator
55
Priest
Evierserator
400 points of fun fun fun*(but really you could get a full units of vanilla terminators for this cost)
19 S6 ap 2 attacks on the charge, 3 of the priests can use smash if necessary(making fewer attacks but hey S10 attacks at ap 2) since were assuming your using the other 2 for re rolling saves and failed wounds(not likely in the first place but your other models might need the help)
Yah know, I hope it does get FAQd to take multiple items because it turns a bad HQ choice into something...
... Kinda Okay.
Like seriously, in a world of Buffmanders, Solitarchs/seers, Shield Eternal Iron Hands Chapter Masters, etc. the Sisters potentially having a single gross character that's not Celestine?
That's not something I see someone fighting over. I'd say tool her up and have fun. I mean, I have TWO of the ladies and I've never used them because the named characters are just too useful. And it's still that way outside of maybe a book caddy now.
Jancoran wrote: Yeah i think I'll read ti again, but it is not one per model I dont think. It says you can take ITEMS from that list. Thats plural last time I checked. Unfortunately my codex is on my Kindle and I left it in a friends car or I'd already have it looked up, but i think it ridiculous to sugest that you can have only one per model.
The thing is the restriction doesn't come from the unit entry but the relic entry itself as that governs how you may purchase wargear from that specific list.
Yeah, the Canoness "may take items from the Melee Weapons, Ranged Weapons, and Ecclesiarchy Relics lists." So even if the rules only allowed you to take a single "item" from each of those lists, the phrasing "may take items" would still be correct.
True. But look at the Dialogus (sororitas command squad).
"The Dialogus may take items from the Ecclesiarchy Relics list."
Items. Plural. And that's the only list she gets access to. In my opinion, in the wording "A model can take one of the following," the emphasis is on "take" not on "one" in contrast to the "a model may replace. . ." wording of the melee, ranged, special, etc lists. On the other hand, just above the Relics list is the vehicle equipment list which states "A model can take up to one of each of the following." I suppose if they wanted to they could have just copied that wording for Relics. Point is, the different entries contradict each other, and this seems about as well thought out as the rest of the codex.
I've been playing sisters (40k in general actually) since just before the WD update was released. Played my first handful of games with the old 3e Witch Hunters codex, and man do I miss it. This new codex was a massive disappointment to me to say the least. Really I was just expecting them to re-release the WD article with some new pictures. I had my fingers crossed for the sort of fixes that should have been in the WD edition had it gone through any kind of peer review (only troop choice was 125 points minimum? Seriously Cruddace?). What I had NOT expected was any kind of nerf, except a probable point increase for Celestine.
Full disclosure: My primary opponent is eldar and he figured out all my tricks a long time ago. Their 6e codex is amazing, and sisters just don't have the tools to deal with the sheer amount of cheese in that book. Massed infantry is NOT the meta among the guys I play with, so those of you who really like this update are probably viewing it from a completely different place than me.
The Good: This list is short, let's start here
Spoiler:
Minimum BSS squad size cut in half. This was expected and only reasonable.
BSS keep their 2 special weapons. This surprised me. It opens up avenues for some pretty nasty spam lists. I like it.
Dominions get 4 specials in a 5 girl squad, AoF ignores cover. This is a giant middle finger to all skimmers and I love it.
Canoness gets some cool wargear, though still not as cool as 3e. I miss my jump pack.
Heavy flamers got cheaper. I was really hoping for this, but it's still surprising they actually gave it to us.
Exorcists got cheaper. If anything I thought they'd get more expensive, Exorcists are awesome.
Command Squad actually makes sense now. Still a questionable point investment though.
Battle conclaves are spammable now. That's scary.
Priests are certainly better than they were, though I'm not as fond of them as everyone else seems to be.
Immolators got a lot cheaper.
Universal Adamantine Will. Again this only makes sense. In 3e sisters could deny the witch on a 5+ before deny the witch was a thing.
Condemnor boltgun is kind of cool, I guess. I'm not that thrilled about it since eldar can ignore perils.
The Bad:
Spoiler:
Acts of Faith. Everything about them kind of sucks now. The once per game thing is total BS, and yeah, my units usually got their AoFs to work more than twice a game. About half of the specific acts didn't change. Most of the ones that did got worse (canoness, I'm looking at you).
Seraphim. I think once people actually get this army on the table, they're going to lose a lot of the love they have for seraphim hand flamers. Without reliable wound re-rolling that S3 AP6 is pretty meh. Seraphim also can't take a simulacrum so it really only is on the round they come in.
Celestine. Poor Celestine. Without EW or T4 she's just too easy to one-shot. Now that she only reses once, she's just not worth it anymore. She'll wound most infantry on a 2+ or 3+, but she lost any viability she had vs MCs. Celestine used to be my answer to wraithguard/lords. And she's more expensive, though not as expensive as I was expecting her to be.
Jacobus. The new version just can't hold a candle to what he used to be. War hymns are cool, I guess, but he just lost so much. +10 points too, because why not?
Battle conclaves can only take power swords. The axe/sword shenanigans were a hold-out from 5e. This was expected, but it still hurts.
Retributors are no longer worth bringing. The rending rule itself is pretty unreliable, and now that they only get rending once or twice they're just no longer a safe bet. And they got more expensive, by the time you're done upgrading them, you could have bought an exorcist. MM rets were always a waste. HF rets might be cool, but you can do the same thing only better with a command squad and you don't eat a slot on the FOC.
Celestians are cheaper and still pointless. Furious Charge without CC wargear: smart! I guess they can bring special weapons, but so can sister squads for 5 points less.
Repentias are cheaper and frailer. Still worthless since they probably wont make it to CC, and even if they do, they'll be dead before their initiative comes around. I'd really like these girls to be good, a full squad can put out over 40 attacks on a charge, but man, they just die too easy. Waste of points.
Penitent Engines have the same problems as repentias. They're just too frail. They're vehicles, so you can't put them in a rhino to get them where they need to be, and they don't get scout or anything fancy to help them close the distance. Big. Scary. Dead.
Across the board leadership nerfs. I don't even understand why this was necessary.
Priests. yeah war hymns are pretty cool. . . in close combat. . . 60% of the time. A priest with a battle conclave could be pretty great (60% of the time), but sororitas units by and large are WS3 S3 T3 I3. I'm sorry but stat lines like that don't belong in close combat. It's like GW wants sisters to be the new assault army without actually supporting us in assault. Also an he's an IC with the leadership of a fire warrior.
Rhino's got more expensive. I guess that was for Shield of Faith. Still bothers me though.
Veteran Superiors are back, 5 points more expensive than the 5e Sister Superiors. And unlike in C:WH they really don't do anything cool. I understand they wanted to bring sisters into line with the other MEQ armies in terms of the sergeant upgrades, but now fielding the same squad I did a week ago costs +5 points.
Missed Opportunities:
Point reductions. If a Chaos marine is 13 points, and a Tacty is 14, there's no reason a Battle Sister should be 12. If we follow the old 4 sisters for every 3 marines rule of thumb, sisters should be somewhere between 10 and 11 points. Considering all the neat toys marines just got, I'd lean towards 10.
Penitent engine should really be a monstrous creature.
Skyfire. Seriously. Skyfire.
Assault vehicles. Not surprising we didn't get one, but some of our units are really boned without one. Especially considering how hard they're pushing us towards assault now.
The Ecclesiarchy is effin' rich. Probably the richest organization in the galaxy. There's no reason sisters shouldn't get access to Artificer Armor. Or Land Raiders for that matter. We had them in 3e, why not now?
So yeah, I'm disappointed. Even a little angry. I've played one game since this wreck came out, and it didn't go so bad. I guess I'll just have to play a few more games and see what happens. Hopefully I judged too harshly.
I think you're pretty much in line with most of the other assessments of the new list. Although a leadership nerf there was not. Priests are huge leadership boosts because they're cheap and they give Fearless. Don't wanna pay 10 pts for a VSS? No problem, 25 and your scoring unit is fearless now and has to be shot down to the very last woman.
That right there flips the script for the once lowly BSS. A 20 woman squad went from ridiculous point sink to an immovable object. With War Hymns, that squad is going to be incredibly tough to take out in CC as well. If you take St. Celestine as your warlord you can use her mobility and her Ld bubble to boost your War Hymns rolls at key moments.
Quo wrote: Acts of Faith. Everything about them kind of sucks now. The once per game thing is total BS, and yeah, my units usually got their AoFs to work more than twice a game. About half of the specific acts didn't change. Most of the ones that did got worse (canoness, I'm looking at you).
I'll have to disagree about the AoFs getting worse. They're fully scaling, now. Before, we had to ration our faith points and really struggled with faith in higher point games. What's more, some units, usually Rets, always got priority for faith points, leaving other units using their AoF far less often. Now, every unit gets to use their faith power. What's more, with simulacrums and laud hailers, we have an very reliable method of letting each unit use its AoF twice per game. Basically, what we have now is more reliable, and scales.
war wrote: . I guess I have an image of a pen engine running across the field with a tortured driver desperately pushing straight through a wall of enemy fire and heedless of having parts of her body getting ripped to shreds. Salvation through death, and nothing else matters.
Exalted for awesomeness. Also gross and disturbing, but hey, it's 40K. So still awesome.
Madcat87 wrote: Quick question I want to know if I'm missing some rule that prevents the following situation.
Priest with Eviscerator.
I use my smash abilty to get strength 6 then with the eviscerator I go to strength 10 with armourbane.
Yup, if you have the Eviscerator, use the Smash Battle Hymn, and make a Smash Attack, you'd be Str10, Armourbane, rerolling the Pen result.
I always find this confusing.... When you have an ability/weapon that adds to Strength and one that multiplies it -- eg the Eviscerator -- which comes first? (3+1)x2 is different from (3x2)+1...
Now that our troop squads no longer have the 'Regroup' AoF, what's the best way to keep them viable, especially now that MSU Immo spam will be the prevailing tactic. BoSL was good when you could get them in every squad, now only one book in the entire force doesn't convince me. Vet Supers at +10 pts for a bump to LD can get quite expensive. Any thoughts on this?
Question: Is it legal to stack two or three priests in the same unit and give the same unit 2+ war hymn abilities?
Rerolling failed saves and failed to-wound rolls could certainly help a large Sisters unit become a viable tarpit unit...
Also, the QuadGun on an ADL is a viable AA defense that doesn't seem to be getting any love. But I do agree it would have been nice to get our own Skyfire unit to even things out a bit.
I always find this confusing.... When you have an ability/weapon that adds to Strength and one that multiplies it -- eg the Eviscerator -- which comes first? (3+1)x2 is different from (3x2)+1...
Page 2 of my little rulebook here under the Models & Units page, section 'Modifiers', sub section 'Multiple Modifiers':
"If a model has a combination of rules or wargear that modify a characteristic, first apply any multipliers, then apply any additions or subtractions, and then finally apply any set values."
The example listed is two modifiers, '+1 Strength' and 'Double Strength' on a Strength 4 character. The formula listed is, "(4x2)+1" or Strength 9.
Looks like I was ninja'd though, so I'll just go ahead and leave this here for a full explanation and its location.
Also yeah, honestly this, like many rules in the rulebook, gets thrown out the window very regularly.
davidgr33n wrote: Now that our troop squads no longer have the 'Regroup' AoF, what's the best way to keep them viable, especially now that MSU Immo spam will be the prevailing tactic. BoSL was good when you could get them in every squad, now only one book in the entire force doesn't convince me. Vet Supers at +10 pts for a bump to LD can get quite expensive. Any thoughts on this?
Priests! You don't need to worry about regrouping if you're fearless.
davidgr33n wrote:Question: Is it legal to stack two or three priests in the same unit and give the same unit 2+ war hymn abilities?
Rerolling failed saves and failed to-wound rolls could certainly help a large Sisters unit become a viable tarpit unit...
They're independent characters so there's nothing stopping you from putting 5 priests in the same unit.
I plan on making my bolt guns with Dark Eldar corsair bits, or just putting one of my Superior's belts as I have the crummy chainsword + plasma pistol ones and NONE of the bolter ones. Boo. And they are SO expensive.
I think you're pretty much in line with most of the other assessments of the new list. Although a leadership nerf there was not. Priests are huge leadership boosts because they're cheap and they give Fearless. Don't wanna pay 10 pts for a VSS? No problem, 25 and your scoring unit is fearless now and has to be shot down to the very last woman.
That right there flips the script for the once lowly BSS. A 20 woman squad went from ridiculous point sink to an immovable object. With War Hymns, that squad is going to be incredibly tough to take out in CC as well. If you take St. Celestine as your warlord you can use her mobility and her Ld bubble to boost your War Hymns rolls at key moments.
If I have to spend 10-25 points to get back to where I was, I'd call it a nerf. Also, that priest won't help you make your AoF leadership check. Fearless is one thing, but it's not all we need leadership for anymore. And, of course, they're only fearless until the priest dies. One precision shot can wreck that blob at any time. A 20 man group must run up the field, eating fire the whole way. Put the priest in the back and he's vulnerable to deep strikers and fast skimmers. Put him in the middle and you only have to shoot maybe 7-10 models to get to him. Since he's a character, in assault he MUST attempt to get into base contact. In most cases that's not a big deal, you can put the wounds on the sisters first. But it's a precarious place to be in and, again, he's WS3 T3 I3 W1.
Quo wrote: Acts of Faith. Everything about them kind of sucks now. The once per game thing is total BS, and yeah, my units usually got their AoFs to work more than twice a game. About half of the specific acts didn't change. Most of the ones that did got worse (canoness, I'm looking at you).
I'll have to disagree about the AoFs getting worse. They're fully scaling, now. Before, we had to ration our faith points and really struggled with faith in higher point games. What's more, some units, usually Rets, always got priority for faith points, leaving other units using their AoF far less often. Now, every unit gets to use their faith power. What's more, with simulacrums and laud hailers, we have an very reliable method of letting each unit use its AoF twice per game. Basically, what we have now is more reliable, and scales.
With the exception of your first sentence, on a technical level I agree with everything you said. Yes, AoFs are a little more likely to succeed. Yes, 1d6 for the whole army per turn was a little tight. However, only a few units actually had decent acts in 5e which meant you only needed to burn a few points each round. That meant that the few units who were really great with their acts (retributors, seraphim) continued to be great throughout the game. Honestly, with the new rules do you plan to use more than 4 acts in a round?
One precision shot can wreck the blob....you mean like any other blob that has a character in it that grands Ld bonuses?
And "have to spend 10-25 points to get back to where I was, I'd call it a nerf", here is a wierd idea-dont try to get to the same place!
Half the old lists were based on the fact the saint, and the HB rets were grossly undercosted, so you just spammed them. now you actually build a balanced force made out of reasonable units where you actually have multiple fair options rather then a few OP ones and multiple useless ones. cry me a river.
The old HB rets costs merely 65% of SMHBdevs, and were generally stronger.
The old saint was the most powerful warlord in the entire game, held back only be a lackluster codex where no units actually worked with her.
Now? well, what do ya know-HB rets turned into actually fairly costed (minimum squad is still just 77% of the cost. with an extra banner chick you are still cheaper then devs), but on the other hand their HF became a real option, and with scary potential.
The saint? still pretty good. sure, you MIGHT one-shoot her, but she is still 2+4++, and resurrects once-more durable then most HQs. still lethal, still a CC nightmare, and still shreds infantry with her heavy flamer on a jetpack.
So she cant win a game all by herself anymore by simple making repeat suicide attacks on the enemy troops with the enemy having 0 chances to do anything about it. though luck.
Dominos got worse at flamer job, but better at melta job. great because flamers are everywhere in your codex anyway (and they are still pretty damn good with them) and cover-ignoring melta ruins the day for the scariest things around, a single volly of cover-ignoring melta will screw up anything from riptides, to WS spam, to nurgle bikers-heck even multiwound T4 guys (tiggy, crisis suits, etc) would take a beating.
But the biggest thing-4 specials in a 5 girl team, meaning even while "worse" at flamer job as their act don't even help it any more-they can bring more flamers.
Seraph became affordable, and now can not only do some damage, but the saint can get a proper escort (just LoS them ID shots, and let her tank the basic fire). still cant see much of a point in inferno pistols, but flame pistol seraphs are GOOD.
Celestians and command squads actually have a reason to be considered now.
The piano got cheaper, and lost nothing. the immo as well, and can now MM for free (so more easy S8AP1, or, if you need, some HF, or highly-accurate HB that reroll wounds.)
Lets not even get started on priests. 5 of them would be auto-take in almost any army if there was not an occasional killpoint mission. and in "any army" I mean every codex, not just any AS army.
As for the whole act of faith crisis, think back-how often did you need it more then once or twice during the entire game on a given unit?
Now, how many times you needed to use more acts then your faith roll allowed, or really had to pull of a specific one?
Bet the second case is more common then the first.
Dominions shoot once, twice at best. you are better of with the new roll making it more likely to work.
Rets don't always shoot at targets where it would even matter if you rend, they prefer to hit FW or less armored targets and do a massacre anyway.
Command team, just this once-run like the wind.
The various assault acts-you are not in assault often, but when you are they better work!
See? you either REALLY need them, or don't care. and now you wont get stuck with "I really need 4 acts, but only got 3, and they are 50% to fail"
Not to mention they actually work in bigger armies now, and there is a wide variety of AoF buffing options (from adding more acts to making them more reliable, depends o your needs. for dominos for example I'd rather be reliable then having more uses.)
You won't always need to fire 4+ acts at once, but once you do-its nice to have to option to suddenly burst with them (or even throw them all down range on T1 to deal heavy early damage). especially if your run many donimos, you no longer have to hope for a decent number of acts fro your alpha strike.
Overall, Id say the only real problems in this version is lack of AA, and the fact repentia/engines have a bit of an issue to survive their way to CC. (but once they get there, they hit HARD)
Anything else seems good, very good. properly priced, properly powered, and interesting to play with, or against. just how I like it.
AS can now 5th ed harder in 6th then anything could in 5th and still do great in 6th
People whining about AoF and saying SoB got nerfed, they didn't get nerfed they got changed. Stop trying to play SoB and start playing AS. Your old lists won't work as well because as with any new dex what's good and bad changes and you have to adapt your list to suit the changes.
Our hqs are now close to useless for actual killing power compared to other hqs so use them for utility, the Book is now back from the grave and is pretty great for only 5 points. A bare naked cannoness with the book safeguarded in an EZ-bake oven command squad is pretty useful. AoF are now more fluffy and scale beteen high and low point games much better now (because seriously, why would a squad of rets be praying that hard the entire fight but everybody else is ignored). What was great is now better due to points drops, and what was silly broken got scaled down a bit *cough celestine *cough.
Currently the best build for AS is immo spam because they are so darn cheap for what they give you. Backed up by exorcists you should easily be able to melt most armies (except IG because manticore and cron air because sisters can't eat croissants since they are heresy but the TLMMs should start to do damage eventually and can block their movement easy with the mass of tanks).
Overall sisters got better since they don't have to pay for expensive BSS and have more consistent AoF along with much needed point decreases. Sure they need a bit of AA but they will have to deal with it (I haven't seen many fliers with eldar and tau around now)
Priests are indeed and answer to the no longer regroup AoF problem on our bss. Since MSU is a great option now do we auto include priests in all the MSUs? Fearless is pretty nice and the priest can be utilised to hopefully gt re-rolls on armour saves, furher extending th staying power of the small squads but we'r taking all our AoF tests on an 8 which isn't that reliable, Loud Hailer on dedicated transports can help but at 10 pts a pop the cost starts adding up, and this is befre we've given our priests wargear (mauls are the clear winner here).
I have costed it up yet but I Think a mix of large durable units and small to mediumsized units eith a significant mech element is he way to go. I haven't priced it up yet but I'm toying with 2x5 bss, 1x10 bss and 1x20 bss. MM immos for the t's, a rhino for the 10 and the 20 will be foot slogging, might still buy a immo for them purely as an additional tlmm. Thoughts?
evildrcheese wrote: I have costed it up yet but I Think a mix of large durable units and small to mediumsized units eith a significant mech element is he way to go. I haven't priced it up yet but I'm toying with 2x5 bss, 1x10 bss and 1x20 bss. MM immos for the t's, a rhino for the 10 and the 20 will be foot slogging, might still buy a immo for them purely as an additional tlmm. Thoughts?
That's what I'm trying, basically, except 2x5 BSS in Immos, 1x20 blob behind aegis.
A 20 man group must run up the field, eating fire the whole way. Put the priest in the back and he's vulnerable to deep strikers and fast skimmers. Put him in the middle and you only have to shoot maybe 7-10 models to get to him. Since he's a character, in assault he MUST attempt to get into base contact. In most cases that's not a big deal, you can put the wounds on the sisters first. But it's a precarious place to be in and, again, he's WS3 T3 I3 W1.
The priest is an IC. You can LoS the shots off the priest 5/6 of the time to the sisters around him.
A 20 man group must run up the field, eating fire the whole way. Put the priest in the back and he's vulnerable to deep strikers and fast skimmers. Put him in the middle and you only have to shoot maybe 7-10 models to get to him. Since he's a character, in assault he MUST attempt to get into base contact. In most cases that's not a big deal, you can put the wounds on the sisters first. But it's a precarious place to be in and, again, he's WS3 T3 I3 W1.
The priest is an IC. You can LoS the shots off the priest 5/6 of the time to the sisters around him.
Yeah, not being an upgrade is a bonus. You don't have to run up the field. I would use my 20 man as my home/middle range blob. Put him in the middle and LOS away wounds. Decline challenges and run Hymns of War.
I just made up a small detachment list for my Ultras.
It is just scary how much you can add for less than 400 points!
Cannoness w/ rosarius, book and bolter
MSUBSS w/ VSS, combi-Flamer, Flamer, heavy Flamer
Immolator (flavor to taste, mine has the flamers and a Laud Hailer!)
Organ of doom
That is 4 flame templates, one of which is twin linked, and a S8AP1 heavy D6 tank. Oh, and everyone auto passes moral tests, tests on a leadership 10 and re-rolls failed AoF rolls. Very excited about this! Since the above only comes out to 370 points, you could throw in a priest, but then you'd have to run a rhino instead of the Immolator. I'm really thinking that this will be my standard attachment. It would be really good at protecting my back line.
One thing I'm running into though...Rhinos or Immolators? Immolators give me some good Dakka, but Rhinos mean I don't actually have to get out of the vehicle to shoot. What are your thoughts on this?
pretre wrote: Yeah, not being an upgrade is a bonus. You don't have to run up the field. I would use my 20 man as my home/middle range blob. Put him in the middle and LOS away wounds. Decline challenges and run Hymns of War.
Heck, if you have a sister sergeant in there, you can use her to accept a challange and then hack away with your eviscerator.
The other advantage being an IC gives is the ability to hop from unit to unit. Lets say the BSS squad hes with is whittled down to just 1 sister. He can hop out of that squad and join another squad, keeping his buffing powers on the table while the lone sister runs and sits on an objective.
I think you're pretty much in line with most of the other assessments of the new list. Although a leadership nerf there was not. Priests are huge leadership boosts because they're cheap and they give Fearless. Don't wanna pay 10 pts for a VSS? No problem, 25 and your scoring unit is fearless now and has to be shot down to the very last woman.
That right there flips the script for the once lowly BSS. A 20 woman squad went from ridiculous point sink to an immovable object. With War Hymns, that squad is going to be incredibly tough to take out in CC as well. If you take St. Celestine as your warlord you can use her mobility and her Ld bubble to boost your War Hymns rolls at key moments.
If I have to spend 10-25 points to get back to where I was, I'd call it a nerf.
It's 5 points. 5. 10 Battle Sisters with a VSS is 130 as opposed to 125 in the WD list. So feel free to complain about an extra half point per model and call it a "nerf".
Its kinda nice to have the preferred enemy with BSS now. At first I was rather dissapointed at the loss of the auto-rally, but it does make them more killy. Tank-shock the enemy infantry close together then torch them with all the flame you can get. With preferred enemy you can re-roll those non-wounding heavy flamer 1's and get more fried tau out of it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Better for the after-battle-charity-fishfry
Just realised War Hymns can only be cast in the at the start of each fight subphase when you're locked in combat so no getting to reroll armour in shooting phase shinanigans. I did think th priests were stupid good so had to re-read! Still 25 points for fearless and great abilities when in combat is good, just not stupid good like I first thought. So withhis in mind I probably won't put a priest in every troop unit but certainly in the mega blob. I think I'm gonna have my blob pushingforward an leave the 10 bss to sit on the home objective.
Amerikon wrote:I agree. I think the BSS are the only unit whose AoF actually got better.
I dunno, I think Preferred Enemy is a wash with Reroll ones to hit or Regroup.
I also think that Dominions Act of Faith is about the same with their old one. The reason Doms won out though is the 4 for 5 special they have. 2 for 5, I'd rather have Twin Linked. 4 for 5, ignore cover.
evildrcheese wrote:Just realised War Hymns can only be cast in the at the start of each fight subphase when you're locked in combat so no getting to reroll armour in shooting phase shinanigans. I did think th priests were stupid good so had to re-read! Still 25 points for fearless and great abilities when in combat is good, just not stupid good like I first thought. So withhis in mind I probably won't put a priest in every troop unit but certainly in the mega blob. I think I'm gonna have my blob pushingforward an leave the 10 bss to sit on the home objective.
Yeah, only assault. Don't forget they get Hatred as well, so rerolls on the first round of combat. They are just a great 25 points.
edit: Also, since they have LP/CCW, they have 3 attacks base before the charge. 2 Smash attacks before charge (or counter attack) at S6 is nothing to sneeze at. And they are pretty good for sucking up challenges if you have nothing else since you can just do the reroll Hymn. Keep in mind that Challenges are issued at the start of the Fight Sub-Phase as well, so you could try to get the reroll, if it passed take the challenge, if it fails duck out.
I am going to wait a bit and see if they correct some of the mistakes and formatting issues before buying the codex. So far it looks different not bad. Having a different way to play the army is great and is a breath of fresh air.
I saw a lot of complaining about Priests in the other threads and I am wondering why. Priests had to be one of the most useless and over costed units in the codex going all the way back to the 3ed WH days. I am stoked to see them get a huge make over personally. Best part is you can always model them as females if you worried about "Codex Dirty Old Men"
I do agree with PE and Repentia being a missed opportunity again. You think GW would want to move those particular models as they have never been super popular. Every AS player has a couple of Exo's but how many can field a full squad of PE or Repentia? I have enough Repentia for 2 squads but only because a bought a army deal off a local player. I personally LOVE the PE model but I don't own a single one because they have never been that good. I want to buy and use them but it's too much money for such a lackluster unit.
I also purpose a contest for who can put the most special weapons vs model count competitive list. It looks like we can spam melta's and flamers hardcore now
MrFlutterPie wrote: I am going to wait a bit and see if they correct some of the mistakes and formatting issues before buying the codex. So far it looks different not bad. Having a different way to play the army is great and is a breath of fresh air.
The formatting is mostly people using crappy ereader programs. I wouldn't sweat it that much. Looks great in Adobe Digital Editions.
I also purpose a contest for who can put the most special weapons vs model count competitive list. It looks like we can spam melta's and flamers hardcore now
That's easy:
Canoness with SCS (5 girls, 4 10 pt Specials) in TL-MM Immo - 240
Canoness with SCS (5 girls, 4 10 pt Specials) in TL-MM Immo - 240
5 Dominons (5 Girls, 4 10 pt Specials) in TL-MM Immo with Laud - 175
5 Dominons (5 Girls, 4 10 pt Specials) in TL-MM Immo with Laud - 175
5 Dominons (5 Girls, 4 10 pt Specials) in TL-MM Immo with Laud - 175
5 BSS (5 Girls, 2 Specials) in TL-MM Immo - 140
5 BSS (5 Girls, 2 Specials) in TL-MM Immo - 140
5 BSS (5 Girls, 2 Specials) in TL-MM Immo - 140
5 BSS (5 Girls, 2 Specials) in TL-MM Immo - 140
5 BSS (5 Girls, 2 Specials) in TL-MM Immo - 140
5 BSS (5 Girls, 2 Specials) in TL-MM Immo - 140
Amerikon wrote:I agree. I think the BSS are the only unit whose AoF actually got better.
I dunno, I think Preferred Enemy is a wash with Reroll ones to hit or Regroup.
I also think that Dominions Act of Faith is about the same with their old one. The reason Doms won out though is the 4 for 5 special they have. 2 for 5, I'd rather have Twin Linked. 4 for 5, ignore cover.
I agree about the Dominions, but I think the Battle Sisters AoF is certainly a buff over their previous one.
1) I think loss of the regroup ability is not a big deal. The only time it really comes into play is when the unit breaks when under 25% strength. Given now that we only get one shot at each EoF there's a good chance that by the time your Sisters are in such dire straits they've already burned their AoF.
2) PE is actually a fair bit better than just re-rolling to hit. Because Math!
Spoiler:
In the form of (To Hit) * (To Wound) = Expected wounds per shot.
If you've made it this far, you may have noticed a pattern. The probability of scoring the necessary result is increased by a factor of 7/6 whenever you can re-roll ones.
Preferred Enemy is (7/6)P(H) * (7/6)P(W), so for any given scenario, PE will boost your chances of scoring a wound by a factor of 49/36 or about 1.36 which is a pretty big deal.
Well I see why someone can plausibly read this in a narrow way, but I think I do not agree with the plausible argument.
Such a limit has always been expressed very clearly in other codex's, in their army entry. The actual explanation of how to READ those entries seems to indicate, in conjunction with the noted asteriks on whether it replaces a weapon or not, that this is not their intent.
So if someone wants to argue that with me, they can. But I am unswayed by this, and am swayed by precedent. I think it's careles wording, but I think it reasonable to surmise that they would not give the Canoness a choice between a holy sword Or... Book of St Lucius. And in neither case allowing her to wear a mantle or cloak? Unlikely.
Amerikon wrote:I agree. I think the BSS are the only unit whose AoF actually got better.
I dunno, I think Preferred Enemy is a wash with Reroll ones to hit or Regroup. I also think that Dominions Act of Faith is about the same with their old one. The reason Doms won out though is the 4 for 5 special they have. 2 for 5, I'd rather have Twin Linked. 4 for 5, ignore cover.
I agree about the Dominions, but I think the Battle Sisters AoF is certainly a buff over their previous one.
1) I think loss of the regroup ability is not a big deal. The only time it really comes into play is when the unit breaks when under 25% strength. Given now that we only get one shot at each EoF there's a good chance that by the time your Sisters are in such dire straits they've already burned their AoF.
2) PE is actually a fair bit better than just re-rolling to hit. Because Math!
Spoiler:
In the form of (To Hit) * (To Wound) = Expected wounds per shot.
If you've made it this far, you may have noticed a pattern. The probability of scoring the necessary result is increased by a factor of 7/6 whenever you can re-roll ones. Preferred Enemy is (7/6)P(H) * (7/6)P(W), so for any given scenario, PE will boost your chances of scoring a wound by a factor of 49/36 or about 1.36 which is a pretty big deal.
Previous one was reroll ones to hit in either Shooting or Assault and regroup. I'm aware PE is better than just rerolling hits (because it works on wounds).
The versatility of the other one was what made it largely a wash, not the pure numbers.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jancoran wrote: Well I see why someone can plausibly read this in a narrow way, but I think I do not agree with the plausible argument.
Such a limit has always been expressed very clearly in other codex's, in their army entry. The actual explanation of how to READ those entries seems to indicate, in conjunction with the noted asteriks on whether it replaces a weapon or not, that this is not their intent.
So if someone wants to argue that with me, they can. But I am unswayed by this, and am swayed by precedent. I think it's careles wording, but I think it reasonable to surmise that they would not give the Canoness a choice between a holy sword Or... Book of St Lucius. And in neither case allowing her to wear a mantle or cloak? Unlikely.
Are you still responding to the One relic thing? I think you're gonna need to either ask your TO or wait for a FAQ.
pretre wrote: Previous one was reroll ones to hit in either Shooting or Assault and regroup. I'm aware PE is better than just rerolling hits (because it works on wounds).
The versatility of the other one was what made it largely a wash, not the pure numbers.
I don't think I ever used it in the Assault phase. It would be pretty slick if you could get PE in either phase.
pretre wrote: Previous one was reroll ones to hit in either Shooting or Assault and regroup. I'm aware PE is better than just rerolling hits (because it works on wounds).
The versatility of the other one was what made it largely a wash, not the pure numbers.
I don't think I ever used it in the Assault phase. It would be pretty slick if you could get PE in either phase.
Well, with the WD dex it was often feast or famine with faith. I'd be sitting there with only 2 units having any sort of opportunity to use faith and 6 faith points. So I'd be like. Umm, I need to tie that unit up. Okay. Light of the Emperor our bolt pistols yay! and LotE again in Assault yay! It never really did much, but was fun to use and made you feel like you were doing something.
WS3 S3 A1 with reroll 1's really isn't that impressive. lol.
Melissia wrote: Maybe if it was permanent reroll 1s, but not after having to roll leadership just to get it.
Wait, what are you talking about? I was talking about the White Dwarf LotE which was reroll ones using the old faith mechanic. The new one is really good even if you have to roll leadership. PE is reroll 1's on Hit and Wound which is awesome.
Melissia wrote: Maybe if it was permanent reroll 1s, but not after having to roll leadership just to get it.
Wait, what are you talking about? I was talking about the White Dwarf LotE which was reroll ones using the old faith mechanic. The new one is really good even if you have to roll leadership. PE is reroll 1's on Hit and Wound which is awesome.
Melissia wrote: Maybe if it was permanent reroll 1s, but not after having to roll leadership just to get it.
Wait, what are you talking about? I was talking about the White Dwarf LotE which was reroll ones using the old faith mechanic. The new one is really good even if you have to roll leadership. PE is reroll 1's on Hit and Wound which is awesome.
I'm probably mixing the two rule systems somehow.
Yeah.
White Dwarf LotE: Assault or Shooting, reroll 1's to hit. Movement, regroup. 5+ mechanic.
Digidex: Shooting, gain preferred enemy (reroll 1's to hit and wound). Need to make a leadership check.
I think it's largely a wash. Although from a shooting perspective, Digidex LOTE is far better.
Possibly, although as I told the wishlisting renaissance that's been going on this month, I don't use fandexes. I appreciate the zeal that goes into them, but most of the few games I manage to get in are at tournaments or other organized events.
Amerikon wrote: It's 5 points. 5. 10 Battle Sisters with a VSS is 130 as opposed to 125 in the WD list. So feel free to complain about an extra half point per model and call it a "nerf".
You're right, comparing the 5e unit to the 6e unit, the price increase is only 5 points. But to take the 6e BSS and make them Ld 9 again is a 10 point upgrade and a priest is 25. What I'm saying is that the changes are self-contradicting. They made our army mechanic a leadership check and then reduced the base leadership for the vast majority of units.
That makes about as much sense as taking an army who's stats make them a poor choice for assault and giving them assault-based special rules in the update for the edition which made everyone shy away from assault based armies.
It makes about as much sense as stating that a model may take one relic in the wargear section, but then suggesting in the model's entry that it can take multiple relics.
It makes about as much sense as giving units Acts of Faith that would only be useful before the rules-as-written say they can be used.
As far as the fearless 20 girl blob goes, the 2+ Look out, Sir! is a good call. I tend to forget about things like that at 5 am. Sorry. But the point I was trying to make is that while yes, priests are good (infinitely better than they were), they're not the saviors of our army that everyone is making them out to be. If they could use those hymns in the shooting phase I would be singing their praises along with the rest of you. They'd need a price bump though.
I guess things are different for you guys, but a 20 man blob just doesn't work with the meta in my gaming group. Troops that hang back to hold an objective die horrible, hilarious deaths. And if you were going to move them up field, you'd be better off splitting them into 4 5-man squads.
pretre wrote: Possibly, although as I told the wishlisting renaissance that's been going on this month, I don't use fandexes. I appreciate the zeal that goes into them, but most of the few games I manage to get in are at tournaments or other organized events.
By contrast, I avoid tournaments and the horrible attitudes that players bring with them when going to them...
Still curious. If we're running MSU flaming sisters, is it better to stick them in an Immolator or a rhino? Immolated gets me another TL heavy Flamer, rhino lets me fire out of the top hatch.
@godswildcard: definitely the Immo, but with TLMM not HF. Why pay a premium for TLHF that can't be used like we did in 3E...
The MMImmo with MSU flamers inside is the way to build.
New tactic: Here's a thought for a new tactic...Dominions on a QuadGun to take away the Jink cover save from bikes (SM Bike Squads ignore this) or flyers. Yes, it's one-use only, but might save us if its a critical hit we need. Probably not the best use of our Doms but just throwing it out there.
Doms are interesting. Meltas are clearly an awesome option for us wihthe AoF, but I still think there's scope for the flamer domsas 4 flamers (5 wih a combi) is still a grrat tool for clearing an objective and you can stick hem in a MM innmo for the scouting move. For the melta squad I'm thinking a rhino and a sim imp may allow them to get two shots off with no cover (2 fir points from a rhino) twice...experimenting is needed forthis squad.
What are everyone's thoughts on Seraphhim now? They look a little lacklustre to me wih those S3 flamers that can only getrerolls once I'm not even sur Celestine fits in well with them now since her roll is more mobile ld buffer opposedo th old bullet magnet. Dhame realy Seraphim are one o my fav units, t's becaus ofthem that i started a ba army as ba have access to lots of jumolp stuff and appropriate angelic iconography to boot...anyway Seraphim anyone?
Seraphim had S3 hand flamers in the WD dex, and they were brilliant. Rerolling to wound on all weapons in the squad turns 10 hand flamer hits (a very low amount of hits to be honest) into 5-6 wounds on T4 and even more on T3. Eldar, Tau, Guard die in droves to Hand flamers. And then on top of this you have a load of bolt pistol shots to land too.
The biggest problem now is only being able to do this trick once per game (no simulacrum), meaning you have to choose your target carefully and then wipe it out in once phase.
If you stick Celestine in the squad too then you have 5-10 extra wounds for her and her heavy flamer can add to the re-rolling wound pile on the squad you want dead, plus she can lead the (remains of the) squad into assault and do some real damage, just in case you havent wiped the suad you wanted to with your shooting. She also means that the AoF should go off reliably in the Seraphim without the extra need for a VSS.
Her 12" bubble could also be used to boost any near by Dominions or other seraphim/fast moving squads too.
I dont see celestine running around on her own anymore, she is much more fragile and, but in a seraphim squad she can be deadly. She destroys power armour squad/bikes - 6 S5 AP3 attacks on charge with master crafted at I7,
Still curious. If we're running MSU flaming sisters, is it better to stick them in an Immolator or a rhino? Immolated gets me another TL heavy Flamer, rhino lets me fire out of the top hatch.
Thoughts?
Nah Immolator gets you a TL Multi-Melta
I am trying out a 1850 list tonight - 5 Immolators, 3 Rhinos, 3 Exorcists and St Celestine on her lonsome - likely reserve her to come in mid game..........
3 Dominion squads - (2 with meltas - one with Preist and Book to auto AOF, 1 with flamers), 1 Cannoness (Indulgence really and including Mantle as her one relic, but she goes with one dominion squad to get LD10), Sisters in a mixture of vehicles - either flamer squads or Melta squads. Command Squad with Meltas and Hospt as anothe punch unit. Minimum size units except one Sisters squad of 7.
Not bothering with Simulacrum Imperialis or Veteran SS's as I think only the Dominons AOF will matter and thats covered......
Windir83 wrote: 6 x Battle Sisters squads
Heavy Flamer
Meltagun
Immolator w/ Multimelta
Condemnor Boltgun
2 x Dominions squads
+1 Dominion
Simulacrum Imperialis
3 Meltaguns
Heavy Flamer
Condemnor Boltgun
Immolator w/ Multimelta
1 x Dominions squad
+1 Dominion
Simulacrum Imperialis
3 Meltaguns
Heavy Flamer
Immolator w/ Multimelta
3 x Exorcists
Saint Celestine
Total 1994
This is where I'm at right now, which I'm guessing is where alot of others have landed as well.
Can't put heavy flamers in the Dom squads. I'm guessing you mean flamers on that one
I'm not convinced that a dom squad will survive long enough to use the Simulacrum. Maybe if it was a 10 girl squad they might... but even then i'm not convinced.
Wouldn´t an aegis defense line be good to have as well? Exorcists are nice, but having something with interceptor and skyfire is kinda nice. (I haven´t played for a year, so I don´t know how the meta has changed)
Windir83 wrote: 6 x Battle Sisters squads
Heavy Flamer
Meltagun
Immolator w/ Multimelta
Condemnor Boltgun
2 x Dominions squads
+1 Dominion
Simulacrum Imperialis
3 Meltaguns
Heavy Flamer
Condemnor Boltgun
Immolator w/ Multimelta
1 x Dominions squad
+1 Dominion
Simulacrum Imperialis
3 Meltaguns
Heavy Flamer
Immolator w/ Multimelta
3 x Exorcists
Saint Celestine
Total 1994
This is where I'm at right now, which I'm guessing is where alot of others have landed as well.
Can't put heavy flamers in the Dom squads. I'm guessing you mean flamers on that one
I'm not convinced that a dom squad will survive long enough to use the Simulacrum. Maybe if it was a 10 girl squad they might... but even then i'm not convinced.
Oh, you're right...hmm, well then I guess I would just give the Doms all Melta and kit some of the battle sisters out with Flamer/Heavy Flamer. If I were to drop those 3 Simulacrums I could take a priest somewhere as well as the one last Condemner. Interesting.
Oh, you're right...hmm, well then I guess I would just give the Doms all Melta and kit some of the battle sisters out with Flamer/Heavy Flamer. If I were to drop those 3 Simulacrums I could take a priest somewhere as well as the one last Condemner. Interesting.
Can go for a Priest with book that means unit auto passes AOF and Hymns for only 40pts - I don't think Simularcums are worth it on small Dominion units - Laud Hailers on vehicles are more worth it I think.
I was doing the melta / flamer stic with my squads and Friend told me to be more focucssed with my squads (so Meltas or flamers) and targets? So will be trying that tonight. Also put a few Rhinos in as the unit can fire from within............(and I only have 5 Immolators at present)
conker249 wrote: I "know" the stats of a hand flamer from the last releases, But I cant find it in the new release. Am I just blind to where it is?
It's in the BRB now (p. 56), as is the eviscerator (60). So, for that matter, is a rule saying any model with two pistol-type weapons can fire them both when shooting -- which is why you won't find a special rule for that in the Seraphim entry anymore.
I was refering to a weapon stat I couldn't find. Wasn't refering to a special rule. Not sure where that came from. The codex is still missing an entry for a weapon that needs it. My question was refering to if I really couldn't find it or it wasn't there at all. Thanks to clockwork I know that it has been left out.
Acidian wrote: Wouldn´t an aegis defense line be good to have as well? Exorcists are nice, but having something with interceptor and skyfire is kinda nice. (I haven´t played for a year, so I don´t know how the meta has changed)
The amount of things that can ignore cover now make ADLs less effective. Wave serpents, Tau markerlights, LotD, etc..
Acidian wrote: Wouldn´t an aegis defense line be good to have as well? Exorcists are nice, but having something with interceptor and skyfire is kinda nice. (I haven´t played for a year, so I don´t know how the meta has changed)
The amount of things that can ignore cover now make ADLs less effective. Wave serpents, Tau markerlights, LotD, etc..
Put a flamer dom squad behind agis manning the gun with a Simulacrum, maybe a preist with a book... 2 ignore cover skyfire shots (not sure you could ignore cover on an interceptor shot, can't look at my ipad right now) and you have a good wall of fire if anyone charges
Quite a good combo there. the flamers serve as a heavy assault deterant, and you probably wont need that ignore cover THAT often, but on the few times you do, you better have it.
Its a shame sisters are practically forced to take ADL or bastion though, no other AA answers anywhere. (except turning them immolators to the sky and hope for a lucky hit)
6 x Battle Sisters squads Heavy Flamer Meltagun Immolator w/ Multimelta Condemnor Boltgun
2 x Dominions squads +1 Dominion Simulacrum Imperialis 3 Meltaguns Heavy Flamer Condemnor Boltgun Immolator w/ Multimelta
1 x Dominions squad +1 Dominion Simulacrum Imperialis 3 Meltaguns Heavy Flamer Immolator w/ Multimelta
3 x Exorcists
Saint Celestine
Total 1994
This is where I'm at right now, which I'm guessing is where alot of others have landed as well.
I think Celestine is a bad choice for this list. I would go with Laud Hailers instead of Sims for the Dominions since they really only get one shot if they are in an Immo anyways. Also, just go HF/F for the Sisters squads. Lastly, I agree on the Aegis. maybe swap two of the BSS and Celestine for one big BSS with Jacobus behind an Aegis.
It's an okay list, I don't know if it is enough at 2k.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Yeah, the reliance on forts for AA means that bastions and rets are a good move. Put Jacobus with the rets and you have 3 acts for rending, which is still good. Put a BSS on top of the bastion for PE on the quad. Plus you can hide the two exos behind the bastion for 3+ cover saves.
conker249 wrote: I was refering to a weapon stat I couldn't find. Wasn't refering to a special rule. Not sure where that came from. The codex is still missing an entry for a weapon that needs it. My question was refering to if I really couldn't find it or it wasn't there at all. Thanks to clockwork I know that it has been left out.
I don't recall seeing that one either... I'm going to assume that, because its not in there GW believes we can guess on their stats. I think i'll go with S8 AP1 mostly because it will be easy for me to remember with the rest of the army. Still deciding if the 'melta' rule should be used though. It makes sense given the fire and all, but it would be hard to figure out which vehicles would be under half distance of the template.
Use Ctrl-F people. It is one of the great things about digidex.
Top of Reliquary Ministorum
Rules for the following ranged weapons are listed in the reference section. Their full rules can be found in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. Bolt pistol, Boltgun, Combi-weapons, Flamer, [u]Hand flamer[u/], Heavy bolter, Heavy flamer, Inferno pistol, Laspistol, Meltagun, Multi-melta, Plasma gun, Plasma pistol, Shotgun, Storm bolter
So yes, it is missing from the quick reference, but the dex tells you to check the main rulebook for the rules anyways. The reference is just an aid.
pretre wrote: And they are pretty good for sucking up challenges if you have nothing else since you can just do the reroll Hymn. Keep in mind that Challenges are issued at the start of the Fight Sub-Phase as well, so you could try to get the reroll, if it passed take the challenge, if it fails duck out.
Would this be 2 simoltanious events that get determined by the player turn's player?
IE it is the Sisters turn, I decide to try my Hymn before challenges. Enemy turn they get to make/accept challenges before you get to see if the Hymn is active.
ClockworkZion wrote: I just realized Necrons can MSS the Priest into Smashing himself.
Of course the other priest will just give rerolls to saves. so he will fail to smash himself because of rosarius.
I mean really if you are worried about your 25 point character potentially dying when in base to base contact with a 200 point combat beast because of an overpower piece of wargear perhaps you should lighten up. A destroyer lord has a pretty good chance of smashing a priest even without the MSS.
That doesnt mean priests arent bad. Most 25 point models die to 200 point ones in combat.
ClockworkZion wrote: I just realized Necrons can MSS the Priest into Smashing himself.
Of course the other priest will just give rerolls to saves. so he will fail to smash himself because of rosarius.
Only if you run a Priest Star perhaps.
On another note, anyone else catch that Jacobus is a little worse stat wise now? No more BS/WS5 for the grumpy old man anymore!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Exergy wrote: I mean really if you are worried about your 25 point character potentially dying when in base to base contact with a 200 point combat beast because of an overpower piece of wargear perhaps you should lighten up. A destroyer lord has a pretty good chance of smashing a priest even without the MSS.
I wasn't worried about it, just noting something I hadn't realized until just now. The shock was more of the "why didn't I realize this sooner?" over "that's so broken!" sort of reaction.
ClockworkZion wrote: I never wanted him swinging, but his shotgun hitting on 2s was nice.
I never play with fortifications so I always forgot he's good for that too.
The funniest move he pulled was at a tournament where he Precision Shot'd a Librarian twice top of turn 1 with a Quad and put a wound on him. The guy takes his first turn and rolls double 1's for his psychic test. Bam. That's what you get for messing with the Jacobus!
ClockworkZion wrote: I never wanted him swinging, but his shotgun hitting on 2s was nice.
I never play with fortifications so I always forgot he's good for that too.
The funniest move he pulled was at a tournament where he Precision Shot'd a Librarian twice top of turn 1 with a Quad and put a wound on him. The guy takes his first turn and rolls double 1's for his psychic test. Bam. That's what you get for messing with the Jacobus!
I've heard a lot of hype about Priests, can someone explain to me why they are so good? From what I've heard they grant hatred, re-roll armour saves, have a 4+ invul and Smash (!!!) for 25pts. Surely this can't be right?
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: I've heard a lot of hype about Priests, can someone explain to me why they are so good? From what I've heard they grant hatred, re-roll armour saves, have a 4+ invul and Smash (!!!) for 25pts. Surely this can't be right?
Priests
IC with Hatred, Fearless, Can choose one of the following each fight phase if they make a LD7 check (reroll armor/invul, reroll wounds, or priest smashes).
SisterSydney wrote: Does the priest always roll on his own leadership or does he get to use the highest in the unit? Even without a Veteran Sister Superior that's 8.
The model takes the test. But Leadership tests say to use the highest from amongst them, so you would go with minimum 8 in most cases.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: I've heard a lot of hype about Priests, can someone explain to me why they are so good? From what I've heard they grant hatred, re-roll armour saves, have a 4+ invul and Smash (!!!) for 25pts. Surely this can't be right?
Priests
IC with Hatred, Fearless, Can choose one of the following each fight phase if they make a LD7 check (reroll armor/invul, reroll wounds, or priest smashes).
Well that's amazing! Fearless, Hatred and 4+ invul is easily worth 25 pts, but re-roll armour saves as well! I take it these only work for sisters? Otherwise I could imagine some ridiculous ally combinations. Now that many people are using Immo Spam MSU sisters, and he is to slow to keep up with Celestein, what units would you advise him in?
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: Well that's amazing! Fearless, Hatred and 4+ invul is easily worth 25 pts, but re-roll armour saves as well! I take it these only work for sisters? Otherwise I could imagine some ridiculous ally combinations. Now that many people are using Immo Spam MSU sisters, and he is to slow to keep up with Celestein, what units would you advise him in?
Nope, Hymns of War works for any unit he is in. He is good in any unit you put him in, even 5 girl sister squads.
conker249 wrote: I was refering to a weapon stat I couldn't find. Wasn't refering to a special rule. Not sure where that came from. The codex is still missing an entry for a weapon that needs it. My question was refering to if I really couldn't find it or it wasn't there at all. Thanks to clockwork I know that it has been left out.
I'm not sure you read that comment right - he said the stats for the hand flamer are in the BRB, and mentioned a few other things that are in the BRB as well.
Hand flamer stats are listed with all the other flamers in the main rulebook.
Well, I can safely say that with this update Blob Guard just became useable again! Either take a ridiculously cheap preacher, or take Jacobus and give them all counter attack. He's like a Commie Lord + Straken that can actually join the units you want him in! Fearless blob horde with counter attack, hatred, re-roll wounds/armour saves with a biomancy psyker. Yeah, shift that!
SisterSydney wrote: Does the priest always roll on his own leadership or does he get to use the highest in the unit? Even without a Veteran Sister Superior that's 8.
The model takes the test. But Leadership tests say to use the highest from amongst them, so you would go with minimum 8 in most cases.
Do the rules make any distinction between a single model (within a unit) taking a Ld test as opposed to the unit taking the test. I'm trying to ask, if it's possible that in the single model case, that model does not benefit from other models in the same unit that have a higher Ld.
If I make a Hymns of War test on Ld 9 because of my VSS, I feel like someone will challenge me on that, so it'd be nice to have the justification ready.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: Well, I can safely say that with this update Blob Guard just became useable again! Either take a ridiculously cheap preacher, or take Jacobus and give them all counter attack. He's like a Commie Lord + Straken that can actually join the units you want him in! Fearless blob horde with counter attack, hatred, re-roll wounds/armour saves with a biomancy psyker. Yeah, shift that!
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing, but looking at the numbers it actually may be better to use a 20 girl sister blob. The rerolling saves only apply to close combat wounds, so having the sister's 3+ save makes the unit so much better against shooting (not to mention 20 bolters with preferred enemy a bit scarier than lasguns). Given how cheap priests are, slapping a power maul on one and having it hum the smash song for 3-4 S5 AP2 attacks at initiative is just as good as the power-axe sergeant spam. I am very curious to see how a 20 girl blob with a simulacrum, Jacobus, and 5 priests works (one with Litanies). That is three rounds of preferred enemy, and some silly shooting/CC. Toss in Celestine and now the ladies hit and run and sweep at I7 as well.
A priest who chooses to make a smash attack and has a mace would be St8 AP2 right? It doesn't say anything about not including the weapons ability in the rules. Just checking because that's pretty sweet and half the cost of the Eviserator (and get the two weapon attack). Alternatively couldn't he just have 3 St5 AP2 attacks if he's armed with a mace and succeeds on his Prayer roll?
Hulksmash wrote: A priest who chooses to make a smash attack and has a mace would be St8 AP2 right? It doesn't say anything about not including the weapons ability in the rules. Just checking because that's pretty sweet and half the cost of the Eviserator (and get the two weapon attack). Alternatively couldn't he just have 3 St5 AP2 attacks if he's armed with a mace and succeeds on his Prayer roll?
Does Smash say you can stack? Hmm. Then it would be S10 AP2 (2 Attacks) or S6 AP4 3 Attacks.
I mean really if you are worried about your 25 point character potentially dying when in base to base contact with a 200 point combat beast because of an overpower piece of wargear perhaps you should lighten up. A destroyer lord has a pretty good chance of smashing a priest even without the MSS.
That doesnt mean priests arent bad. Most 25 point models die to 200 point ones in combat.
MSS can be on a something cheaper... 60 points in fact (with a warscythe)(still 2x the priest)
i'm going to say that a war hymms tests are not a morale test, but more like a psyker test, therefor you have to do it at leadership 7, unless st. celestine is with in 12 inches
I mean really if you are worried about your 25 point character potentially dying when in base to base contact with a 200 point combat beast because of an overpower piece of wargear perhaps you should lighten up. A destroyer lord has a pretty good chance of smashing a priest even without the MSS.
That doesnt mean priests arent bad. Most 25 point models die to 200 point ones in combat.
MSS can be on a something cheaper... 60 points in fact (with a warscythe)(still 2x the priest)
Hulksmash wrote: A priest who chooses to make a smash attack and has a mace would be St8 AP2 right? It doesn't say anything about not including the weapons ability in the rules. Just checking because that's pretty sweet and half the cost of the Eviserator (and get the two weapon attack). Alternatively couldn't he just have 3 St5 AP2 attacks if he's armed with a mace and succeeds on his Prayer roll?
Does Smash say you can stack? Hmm. Then it would be S10 AP2 (2 Attacks) or S6 AP4 3 Attacks.
It doesn't say you can stack. You double your strength. I would assume you are still able to use weapon bonuses. I just assumed they came in after the base doubling. Not that you got to double off the weapon stats. Only really matters with maces and axes I guess.
And you'd be AP2 no matter what if smash goes off. AP2 is just a result of the rule. The doubling of strength and halfing of attacks is a different aspect andn ot tied to the AP2. So just using a mace would still be St5 AP2 for your normal attacks.
I mean really if you are worried about your 25 point character potentially dying when in base to base contact with a 200 point combat beast because of an overpower piece of wargear perhaps you should lighten up. A destroyer lord has a pretty good chance of smashing a priest even without the MSS.
That doesnt mean priests arent bad. Most 25 point models die to 200 point ones in combat.
MSS can be on a something cheaper... 60 points in fact (with a warscythe)(still 2x the priest)
It can, but I rarely see royal courts these days.
Ah, I always bring them, and never bring a Dlord...
Oh, and for the leadership for Hymns I'm going to treat it like IG orders which are also a leadership test (i.e. not affected by attached characters). It's a special ability so you test on the base leadership, not the character enhanced leadership. But that's just me.
And that makes 25-point priests much less insanely overpowered.
Still insanely overpowered, mind you, just less insane. If they have to roll 7 or less, you cannot plan on their Hymns working more than half the time.
conker249 wrote: I was refering to a weapon stat I couldn't find. Wasn't refering to a special rule. Not sure where that came from. The codex is still missing an entry for a weapon that needs it. My question was refering to if I really couldn't find it or it wasn't there at all. Thanks to clockwork I know that it has been left out.
I'm not sure you read that comment right - he said the stats for the hand flamer are in the BRB, and mentioned a few other things that are in the BRB as well.
Hand flamer stats are listed with all the other flamers in the main rulebook.
pretre wrote: Oh yeah, double then add. So S8 AP2 (2 attacks) or S5 AP4 3 Attacks.
Also, good call on that for the normal attacks. Since he has the smash rule, he gets AP2 without having to half his attacks.
It is either S8 AP2 (2 attacks) or S5 AP2 (3 attacks)... I will need to triple check when I get home but I am pretty sure the smash rule explicitly makes all attacks AP2 AND gives the ability to half-attacks for double strength.
Edit: So, to be more clear, even if you do not double-your-strength you still have AP2 attacks with the power maul (at initiative, even though it is only 3 it matters against Dlords and riptides!)
SisterSydney wrote: And that makes 25-point priests much less insanely overpowered.
Still insanely overpowered, mind you, just less insane. If they have to roll 7 or less, you cannot plan on their Hymns working more than half the time.
And Ld 8 really breaks them? They're still Ld 7 on their own so a PriestStar only gets maybe half the powers they're trying to get off to work (hope you have at least 6 in there!), and it only really starts getting good when you put them with another, more expensive unit, and which case they basically act as a 25 pt upgrade whose ability only works 1/3 phases and has to Look Out Sir! so they don't risk biting the dust.
I feel that even testing on the highest Leadership that they're balanced fairly well between the different pros and cons. I mean it's a Guardsman with War Hymns instead of Orders and a Rosarius.
SisterSydney wrote: And that makes 25-point priests much less insanely overpowered.
Still insanely overpowered, mind you, just less insane. If they have to roll 7 or less, you cannot plan on their Hymns working more than half the time.
And Ld 8 really breaks them? They're still Ld 7 on their own so a PriestStar only gets maybe half the powers they're trying to get off to work (hope you have at least 6 in there!), and it only really starts getting good when you put them with another, more expensive unit, and which case they basically act as a 25 pt upgrade whose ability only works 1/3 phases and has to Look Out Sir! so they don't risk biting the dust.
I feel that even testing on the highest Leadership that they're balanced fairly well between the different pros and cons. I mean it's a Guardsman with War Hymns instead of Orders and a Rosarius.
I'll just point out that if you plan on running priest-star you should be taking Litanies. LD7 does not matter when your entire unit and all ICs attached automatically pass all checks...
SisterSydney wrote: And that makes 25-point priests much less insanely overpowered.
Still insanely overpowered, mind you, just less insane. If they have to roll 7 or less, you cannot plan on their Hymns working more than half the time.
And Ld 8 really breaks them? They're still Ld 7 on their own so a PriestStar only gets maybe half the powers they're trying to get off to work (hope you have at least 6 in there!), and it only really starts getting good when you put them with another, more expensive unit, and which case they basically act as a 25 pt upgrade whose ability only works 1/3 phases and has to Look Out Sir! so they don't risk biting the dust.
I feel that even testing on the highest Leadership that they're balanced fairly well between the different pros and cons. I mean it's a Guardsman with War Hymns instead of Orders and a Rosarius.
I'll just point out that if you plan on running priest-star you should be taking Litanies. LD7 does not matter when your entire unit and all ICs attached automatically pass all checks...
That's also something that can be sniped out and drives the cost of the unit up.
Let's be frank here, the Priests aren't close to broken. A power weapon puts them at 40 points for something that fights like a Guardsman.
Lilrys wrote: Hmmm I can't find anything that stops IG from using an ICsld for orders. Well apart from the faq, but thats specific to allied ICs.
Correct. Guard cannot used allied ICs, but that can use their own ICsLD --- like adding a Commisar to a blob makes it easier to issue orders, but adding Jacobus or Celestine does not.
Also, looking at the rules for a psychic test it says "A Psychic test is a Leadership test, however, where Leadership tests could be taken on the value of another mode, a Psychic test is always taken on the Psyker's own Leadership."
War Hymns: "A model with this special rule can take a Leadership test..."
All the evidence appears to point at using the highest Ld in the unit when rolling for Hymns.
Automatically Appended Next Post: What's the wording for the IG Orders?
Hulksmash wrote:Oh, and for the leadership for Hymns I'm going to treat it like IG orders which are also a leadership test (i.e. not affected by attached characters). It's a special ability so you test on the base leadership, not the character enhanced leadership. But that's just me.
Actually your example is not correct. IC from codex IG are both affected by and their leadership is used. In fact there is specific mention of orders in the Ld bubble for Lord Commissars. You are probably thinking of the FAQ where it states ALLIED ICs do not benefit nor can their Ld be used.
Right now I can see both ways being plausible for the priest but the unit wide abilities are highest Ld in the unit for sure. I guess this makes Celestine more viable as she could turn a priest star into a real threat.
I think I will see a few (would be alot but metal models...) of minimum Flamer/HFBSS + condemnor sis in MM Immos with max melta doms and exorcists. It is actually pretty interesting that the new AS are really good against all the major tourney armies. Condemnors may single handedly invalidate CD and GK armies. Scouting ignore cover melta and massed HF have a very good chance to nuke a Tau player off the board. A single dom squad can almost HP strip a waveserpent dead in one turn. If the CWE player actually wants to do any damage to the AS player they will have to drop shields. If they do the AS player will nuke them. The only army they are not ideally suited for taking on is necrons. This is why I think AS is going to get a lot of love from players as part of an allies force and AS players may really appreciate firestorm redoubts which are murder on flyers.
I really think AS is going to be one of the big favorites for IG players to ally in some priests. There is going to be a rush to buy 1-5 priests and 5-10 BSS with perhaps an exorcist and some Immos. MSUBSS are actually fairly decent forward scoring squads (as compared to all the IG options which die if looked at out of cover).
It will be interesting to see if this revitalizes interest in SoB and the combinations that come about. I could see some nasty builds with IG (blobbs+vendettas), SM (grav those MCs and Stormraven that hellturkey), or DA (PFG for all those Immos could be brutal).
Mythantor wrote: You could always takes the 15 point relic that lets you auto pass Hymms and AoF.
And adding in the cost of their power weapon (as you did give him a Power Maul, right?) he runs 55 points. And has 1 wound. And will die 50% of the time he's forced to take a save.
pretre wrote: I wouldn't bother giving him a power maul.
Automatically Appended Next Post: 5 Priests and 1 Litanies - 140
So S6 Smashes for you then? With laspistols? Yeah, I don't see that getting anywhere fast. Not to mention the number of wounds that can be poured on it very fast. 2+ LOS for the Litanies aside, everyone in that unit still only has a 4++ vs permanent death. One good round of shooting and that unit is a greasy smear.
Priests are best as a supports for units not a really lame deathstar from what I can see.
Anyone else finding it rather difficult to use the Ebook to make lists? I find the flipping annoying. Page memorization seems to be the key. Sigh. More bandwidth. Allocating now...
ClockworkZion wrote: So S6 Smashes for you then? With laspistols? Yeah, I don't see that getting anywhere fast. Not to mention the number of wounds that can be poured on it very fast. 2+ LOS for the Litanies aside, everyone in that unit still only has a 4++ vs permanent death. One good round of shooting and that unit is a greasy smear.
Priests are best as a supports for units not a really lame deathstar from what I can see.
S6AP2 is still S6 AP2. 2 Attacks base, one extra for charge or counter charge. What about the 20 sisters with the 5++/3+ to soak wounds? Unlikely that one round of shooting is going to smear it. Or are you talking about a unit of only priests?
Jancoran wrote: Anyone else finding it rather difficult to use the Ebook to make lists? I find the flipping annoying. Page memorization seems to be the key. Sigh. More bandwidth. Allocating now...
ClockworkZion wrote: So S6 Smashes for you then? With laspistols? Yeah, I don't see that getting anywhere fast. Not to mention the number of wounds that can be poured on it very fast. 2+ LOS for the Litanies aside, everyone in that unit still only has a 4++ vs permanent death. One good round of shooting and that unit is a greasy smear.
Priests are best as a supports for units not a really lame deathstar from what I can see.
S6AP2 is still S6 AP2. 2 Attacks base, one extra for charge or counter charge. What about the 20 sisters with the 5++/3+ to soak wounds? Unlikely that one round of shooting is going to smear it. Or are you talking about a unit of only priests?
I was talking about a Priest Star. But if you want to stick that 140 points into a 20 Sister Blob that'll run you nearly 400 points without upgrades.
For that cost I'd rather stick just 1 Priest in that squad instead.
I've been toying with trying to work out a 1.5K list and I think focusing more on the standard squad size in Rhinos or MSU in Immolators might be my better bet. 20 Sister blobs look like a better option once we hit 2K and want extra bodies to hold objectives.
If I get some time I'll drum up what I'm thinking and put it out for critiquing.
So, I don't know if this has already come up in this discussion, but with the advent of the new Sisters 'dex, I've been pondering the viability of a Sisters blob. A big squad of 20 Battle Sisters, led by Uriah and a Litanies of Faith Priest, would be able to benefit from two War Hymns at once (passed automatically thanks to the LoF), would be Fearless, and would be able to reroll all of their armour/5+ invul saves in close combat.
Do any of you think this big unit is tactically viable, or is it bound to get shot to hell by ordnance/Hellturkies etc?
EDIT: Aaargh, and now I notice someone beat me to it.
ClockworkZion wrote: So S6 Smashes for you then? With laspistols? Yeah, I don't see that getting anywhere fast. Not to mention the number of wounds that can be poured on it very fast. 2+ LOS for the Litanies aside, everyone in that unit still only has a 4++ vs permanent death. One good round of shooting and that unit is a greasy smear.
Priests are best as a supports for units not a really lame deathstar from what I can see.
S6AP2 is still S6 AP2. 2 Attacks base, one extra for charge or counter charge. What about the 20 sisters with the 5++/3+ to soak wounds? Unlikely that one round of shooting is going to smear it. Or are you talking about a unit of only priests?
I was talking about a Priest Star. But if you want to stick that 140 points into a 20 Sister Blob that'll run you nearly 400 points without upgrades.
For that cost I'd rather stick just 1 Priest in that squad instead.
That is exactly what people used to do with IG blobs and Jacobus and it was very effective. I see no reason why it still would not be, it only seems to have gotten better with counter attack (allowing you to stand there and rapidfire into something and STILL get the benefit of a charge), a 3+ save versus shooting, and more, higher strength AP hits once you get into CC.
I think Sisters will be a good counter-balance to the current / prevailing meta of large squads and low-count mech. The question is: is being the antithesis of the meta a good thing?
I personally rather like giving the opponent so many targets that it rankles him. As Stalin once said, "there's a certain quality in quantitiy". In 2000 points I have been able to get in 55 Sisters with 20 flamers plus a condemnor-boltgun Canoness, 11 Immolators (MM) and 3 Exorcists, and an ADL with QuadGun. Obviously this can cause parking lot nightmares, but splitting the force into two aggressive flank attacks will cause many headaches.
quiestdeus wrote: That is exactly what people used to do with IG blobs and Jacobus and it was very effective. I see no reason why it still would not be, it only seems to have gotten better with counter attack (allowing you to stand there and rapidfire into something and STILL get the benefit of a charge), a 3+ save versus shooting, and more, higher strength AP hits once you get into CC.
IG get more bodies at the same points, so nearly 300 points using IG goes further than the same only using Battle Sisters. Not to mention orders, and and their ability to mass heavy weapons that severely out range the ones Sisters can purchase.
davidgr33n wrote: I think Sisters will be a good counter-balance to the current / prevailing meta of large squads and low-count mech. The question is: is being the antithesis of the meta a good thing?
I think it's a good thing. I'm hopeful that it will promote a growth in tournament lists rather than the same spam over and over again. Even with the relatively low popularity it's possible that AS players can throw a wrench in the scene. Much like DE do. They're the kind of army that can cause some surprising upsets. Unfortunately due to the nature of Tesla Destructors and the cheap spam ability, it'll be hard for that to be reflected in Necron tournament lists, but for Eldar and Tau, I think it will help. The question is can we get enough AS players in major tournaments to become more than just upstarts?
quiestdeus wrote: That is exactly what people used to do with IG blobs and Jacobus and it was very effective. I see no reason why it still would not be, it only seems to have gotten better with counter attack (allowing you to stand there and rapidfire into something and STILL get the benefit of a charge), a 3+ save versus shooting, and more, higher strength AP hits once you get into CC.
IG get more bodies at the same points, so nearly 300 points using IG goes further than the same only using Battle Sisters. Not to mention orders, and and their ability to mass heavy weapons that severely out range the ones Sisters can purchase.
Absolutely true with respect to weapons, but the bodies are a wash given the improved Sister save. 20 plain Sisters is 240, which is slightly more than 30 guard and 3 axes (counting the mandatory PCS). Obviously theory hammering pretty hard now, but I think they will come up pretty even (if not better).
Going to see how pure Sisters does against cron-air this weekend, I am very excited to tarpit some wraiths and see what happens!
Going against Dark angels terminator army tomorrow night, so ill post results and lists after the match. pretty excited even if some people at my club says digital codex's are illegal
.
So I finally got a litle test in with my old sisters list with a few monor additions - I actually did not need many. I found that a large sisters blob moving forward with all the buffs - preferred enemy, fearless, decent saves, hit and run, acts of faith, etc., was very hard for my opponent to deal with when all the other facets of my army also threatened. The AGL/Venedetta/Officer of the Fleet combo was quite good eliminating other flyers as well and could hurt ground forces too. Overall I'm leased with the new sisters. It seems we have lost little and still can ally with IG for a decent list.
Spoiler:
uriah 100
st. celestine 135
2x priests, 3 plasma 80
20 sisters, flamer, heavy flamer, combi-flamer (uriah/celestine) 280
2x 5 sisters, flamer, heavy flamer, combi-flamer, immolator, tlmm (plasma priest each here) 290
2x exorcists 250
- that is 1135 -
Now add just enough IG to get a few Vendettas - you have 600+ points to play with.
command squad, officer of the fleet, 4 melta, chimera, heavy flamer, multilaser 175
platoon 180
1*platoon command squad, autocannon
2* infantry squad, autocannon
2* vendetta 260
- that is 615 -
i was impressed that 10 battle sisters, a canoness, and a priest was able to tie up my thunderwolves for 3 game turns. by the end, they used up all their "to hit" rerolls and their armor rerolls test failed, so things weren't looking good for them.
in the end of the relic mission, the sisters couldn't keep their relics, so the space wolves won
I think we can all agree, then, that while Sisters can't do much damage in close combat, Priests make them INCREDIBLY durable.
I'm rather tempted now to try 20 Sisters with Celestine and Jacbos myself. I'm still keen to do some experimenting as well with Repentias, Penitent Engines and Celestians (speaking of Celestians...do people see ANY use for them, at all?)
BTW, rule question, but doe anyone know if Uriah's aura/the Banner of Ophelia work from inside a transport?
Recently, I realized that all the Crusader power weapons were locked to swords. I was sad, not because I was going to build some axe wielders (I was, so I guess they'll get GKDCA now...), but that I bought the Mordheim Sisters of Sigmar to be my battle conclave for fluff games:
I even lucked into one of the Augurs, which is one of the rarer for the set.
I then felt bad that now I had to buy some new flagellant warband guys, having used the last to make bolter acolytes for my GK tournament list, for some new priests. Then I felt amazing when I realized that my mace wielding sisters of sigmar are now ecclesiarchy priests with power maces already! I already own my five priests!
I will get a game in on Friday, probably. At 1500, I will definitely try the 20 girls + 5 priests + Jacobus blob. Sillystine will still lead her Seraphim to battle because I love those girls too much.
Lord of Nonsensical Crap wrote: I think we can all agree, then, that while Sisters can't do much damage in close combat, Priests make them INCREDIBLY durable.
I'm rather tempted now to try 20 Sisters with Celestine and Jacbos myself.
I have been toying with this blob build for days now, but in the end I think it's a massive points sink for a single unit: nearly 300 points (costs of Jacobus, Celestine and two priests) into a unit of 20 Sisters (250 points with a couple of flamers) for a single unit of I3 T3 1A. Yes, 5++ is nice with re-rollable saves and HnR (so yes it's durable), but how often will any saavy opponent actually LET you run into them with this thing? And all that mainly just to get Celestine into combat? It's too expensive!
Our strengths lie in small units with dual-specials / dirt cheap MM Immolators / and the best support tank in the game for its points - the Exorcist.
BS4 Sisters with bolters, power armor and a transport are best at one thing: getting into range as quickly as possible and shooting. Leave Celestine at home, bring a bare-bones HQ and do your best to overwhelm your opponent with good old-fashioned butt-kicking nuns-with-guns shooting.
I think that's our best chance for a truly competitive build.
Lord of Nonsensical Crap wrote: I think we can all agree, then, that while Sisters can't do much damage in close combat, Priests make them INCREDIBLY durable.
I'm rather tempted now to try 20 Sisters with Celestine and Jacbos myself.
I have been toying with this blob build for days now, but in the end I think it's a massive points sink for a single unit: nearly 300 points (costs of Jacobus, Celestine and two priests) into a unit of 20 Sisters (250 points with a couple of flamers) for a single unit of I3 T3 1A. Yes, 5++ is nice with re-rollable saves and HnR (so yes it's durable), but how often will any saavy opponent actually LET you run into them with this thing? And all that mainly just to get Celestine into combat? It's too expensive!
Our strengths lie in small units with dual-specials / dirt cheap MM Immolators / and the best support tank in the game for its points - the Exorcist.
BS4 Sisters with bolters, power armor and a transport are best at one thing: getting into range as quickly as possible and shooting. Leave Celestine at home, bring a bare-bones HQ and do your best to overwhelm your opponent with good old-fashioned butt-kicking nuns-with-guns shooting.
I think that's our best chance for a truly competitive build.
An IG/Sisters player did well at Feast Open (Top 10 well) with blobs, 2 Avenger Strike Fighters, ADL, 10 Ladies, and burying Celestine in a guard blob. He also had those guard defense platforms of broken-ness (TLLC with interceptor and skyfire for dirt cheap... with an Av value... 6 of them!).
I imagine a take on the same army would work. I will be tempted to proxy my Vendetta as an ASF just for funsies.
Yes but that was 2 minimal squads of Sisters to get Celestine. The difference is that you can get a 50man blob of IG for the same cost as a 20 (wo)man blob of Sisters, and the IG blob will have much more offensive power than the 20 Sisters. The IG blob + Celestine will be fearless with HnR, and since it has a larger footprint it can get to more opponents and take advantage of HnR no matter which part of the blob makes contact.
IG's advantage is numbers and cheap mech support. We have a mono-build mech support, whereas IG can diversify its mech support.
MrFlutterPie wrote: I am going to wait a bit and see if they correct some of the mistakes and formatting issues before buying the codex. So far it looks different not bad. Having a different way to play the army is great and is a breath of fresh air.
The formatting is mostly people using crappy ereader programs. I wouldn't sweat it that much. Looks great in Adobe Digital Editions.
I also purpose a contest for who can put the most special weapons vs model count competitive list. It looks like we can spam melta's and flamers hardcore now
That's easy:
Canoness with SCS (5 girls, 4 10 pt Specials) in TL-MM Immo - 240
Canoness with SCS (5 girls, 4 10 pt Specials) in TL-MM Immo - 240
5 Dominons (5 Girls, 4 10 pt Specials) in TL-MM Immo with Laud - 175
5 Dominons (5 Girls, 4 10 pt Specials) in TL-MM Immo with Laud - 175
5 Dominons (5 Girls, 4 10 pt Specials) in TL-MM Immo with Laud - 175
5 BSS (5 Girls, 2 Specials) in TL-MM Immo - 140
5 BSS (5 Girls, 2 Specials) in TL-MM Immo - 140
5 BSS (5 Girls, 2 Specials) in TL-MM Immo - 140
5 BSS (5 Girls, 2 Specials) in TL-MM Immo - 140
5 BSS (5 Girls, 2 Specials) in TL-MM Immo - 140
5 BSS (5 Girls, 2 Specials) in TL-MM Immo - 140
I'm gonna try the blob tonight hopfully. Gonna have Jaco and one priest in there with 20 girls. Fearless with qa 5++ should be difficult to move of an objective, obviously they'll really shine if they get into combat and tie something nasty up. We'll see. Might go in at 1000 pts at first as I don't have enough immos for my 1500pt list.
Why are so many sister players complaining about IG being better when IG are battle brothers?
IG and AS go together like peanut butter and jelly.
They also don't need much from each other. An allied IG force org is enough to slip in a vendetta, tank or artillery squad, CCS, and 2 power blobs. Points run out faster than force org.
If IG is primarI y All IG really needs is Jacobus & some priests with an exorcist, dominion, and bss squad as icing on the cake.
Got monstered last night by Eldar - mainly due to horrible dice.
Started badly with deployment on short table edges, then he siezed the Initiative.........then my remaining two Exorcists fired 8 missiles at the Wraith Knight standing in the open and did Zero damage, as did the 6 melta shots at it.......it went downhill from there
Last Turn got some luck back when he tried to kill my command squad and rolled huge amount of 6+ saves to keep them alive - as were two sisters in single combat with the Wraith Knight.
However did melta the Farseer with the Cannoness and her Dominons ignoring its cover save so I figure Killing the Xenos Witch made it a fine moral victory
We both had good fun - especially when I suggested that this time we would put warheads on the missiles (they also did no damage)
Started badly with deployment on short table edges, then he siezed the Initiative.........then my remaining two Exorcists fired 8 missiles at the Wraith Knight standing in the open and did Zero damage, as did the 6 melta shots at it.......it went downhill from there
Yeah, that's rough. Nothing you can do when the dice gods decide it is not your day!
My one problem with the new 'dex is that they lowered Jacobus leadership to 9. I always played him as my warlord ( and I love his new warlord trait) but now if I have the saint or a cannones, he can never be the warlord! I miss his leadership 10.... It knda hurts they lowered his stats and increase his points. Still trying to make my old list work...
schadenfreude wrote: Why are so many sister players complaining about IG being better when IG are battle brothers?
IG and AS go together like peanut butter and jelly.
They also don't need much from each other. An allied IG force org is enough to slip in a vendetta, tank or artillery squad, CCS, and 2 power blobs. Points run out faster than force org.
If IG is primarIy All IG really needs is Jacobus & some priests with an exorcist, dominion, and bss squad as icing on the cake.
Some of us don't want to use allies though, but that's a different topic.
I don't know if anyone brought this up yet but. Taking repentia now seems desirable if you add Uriah with them in a Rhino or a repressor.
That's a 10 model squad with 8 models having 2 base attacks each at STr6 AP1 that get to reroll a 5+ invuln save and get 2 uses of their act of faith that consist of a 3+FNP.
With all those invuln and FNP saves that most of those S6 AP1 eviscerators will swing and get to reroll misses at WS4 with the Hatred Special rule.
Problem is that if someone blows up your rhino, the girls are going to be in for a world of hurt. This is probably the only squad in the codex I'd concider putting in a repressor.
They have multiple problems. Even with Uriah, you don't have a plan to assault things. They lose fleet and no one is going to assault them, they are going to torrent them down.
As for Repressors, I would still put units in Repressors since they are so damn good.
Repentia are less desirable since they can't charge the turn they get out of the vehicle, and the loss of FnP makes them more likely to do to S5 and down weapons. Even with Jacobus support they are -hurting- right now.
"They'll torrent them down" seems like an absurd statement, and applies to every unit. Better not play 40k, you'll just get torrented down. Actually, that's probably a true statement. Let's just all forget all this tactica nonsense and spam riptides until GW nerfs them to force people to buy other armies. Then we can go play warmachine instead.
dadakkaest wrote: "They'll torrent them down" seems like an absurd statement, and applies to every unit. Better not play 40k, you'll just get torrented down. Actually, that's probably a true statement. Let's just all spam riptides until GW nerfs them.
Dude. Get over yourself and take the feedback as given. Here, let me elaborate:
The Repentia get into a rhino with Jacobus. That's 8 Repentia, a Mistress and Jacobus.
You find a tasty unit to assault. you disembark right in front of the enemy or maybe even behind a rhino.
You now have 8 5++ wounds, 1 3+ Wound and 3 4+ wounds. You're not going to survive to get into assault. 1 Squad of Tac Marines with 8 bolters and some other stuff? We'll say 16 Bolters, 12 Hit, 8 Wound. 5 Dead repentia. From one squad of Marines. They are just too fragile to sit in front of the army and hope to make it into assault.
Not having a delivery system for the unit is a huge problem for Repentia.
dadakkaest wrote: So the only viable army list appears to be. snip Exciting and dynamic.
Are you just looking to argue with people? You obviously haven't read a darn thing we have said without trying to take offense. I'll assume you just haven't read the thread and spell it out:
Right now there seem to be a few good builds: - Immolator Spam, as you mentioned. - Mixed Mech with Firebase - Big Sister Squads with Uriah Priest Support - IG Ally Shenanigans (Priests, Uriah, Celestine or Command Squads) - Arco Spam (Not sure if this is 'good' yet, but we'll find out) with any of the others as support.
And we're about a week in, so haven't seen everything yet.