moonsmite wrote: tbh was looking at Singularity Generators as would be better for mowing down screens while its charging up the board to charge the nasty targets.
But for its points, would not leave the shelf outside casual games.
Think who ever play tests necrons, just hates the army as nothing rules wise seems to go our way really
Wouldn't the 11 shots from other config be better chaff clearer than 6 from singularity generators?
And hey necrons have it good. That might be bad but it's still miles ahead of stompa AND costs only 66% of it.
I like the rules quite a lot, but as previously mentioned, most of it's targets will have at least 4+ inv saves and only having a 5+ inv itself doesn't help.
It's probably about 100 points over costed though, what a suprise
find it fairly meh, but want it to decide how i feel
I love it, M16 fall back, shoot and charge sounds like so much fun. The 3D6" explosion on a 6 is baller, could be amazing against melee armies, they basically have to give it a wide berth.
Is it bad? It's better than two Monoliths and it's less than two Monoliths. Keep in mind the turn 1 advance and charge. Ah gak. Seraptek, still possible on a 9 if your opponent isn't careful, or even easier on some deployment types, M16 IS a ton. Maybe it is worse than two Monoliths. Definitely not something I'd feel bad about bringing to a casual game, whether it'll feel as bad as bringing a Monolith I'll have to see. I'll try and playtest it soon, if it's not too bad I'll buy the real model.
Now do you take 12 S 8 AP -3 Dd6 with 1 and 1/3 mortal wounds or 7 S 6 AP -3 Dd3 with 2/3 of a mortal wound and 4 S 16 AP -4 D6? I'm leaning toward the latter, more split fire is good. Each D3 S 16 AP -4 D6 weapon has a good chance at wrecking a vehicle, pick off a couple of dudes or do a couple of wounds to a vehicle with the smaller shots, against T7 the former probably does more damage, but it being less spread out and the D6 damage makes me think it's likely to boom or bust. Take it as Novokh? In case it loses wounds, it can fall back, then charge and still hit a good amount of times, of course you'd most likely spend 1 CP to function optimally. Fighting twice might make it worth it, then it's like a shooting knight and a melee knight stuck together, just much more fragile. Sautekh is very meh, advancing D6" and getting -1 to hit is not worth it, +1 to hit is neat, but eh. Nihilakh for the ability to go into full dakka mode, eh, more for the Stratagem I think. Nephrekh is full troll mode because it's Seraptek.
The Necron Stratagems are amazing, but they just don't support it enough, the only busted Stratagems it has are Novokh and Nihilakh, those are amazing, but so are Knight Stratagems. Definitely nowhere near competetive. The game needs to change a lot for it to become viable, it really just needs a price reduction. 500 pts like the Vault would make it very viable, 550 is good, 625 is a very hard sell. I still think I'm going to win some games with it, I'll probably have to not warn my opponent about it's movement though. Damn 16, fast lil' bugger.
Lost a game against AM with a quantum shielding spam list, rolled a lot of 1s and 2s, good for the shielding, bad for the damage output. Got shot off the table around turn 4 or 5, having killed most of his infantry, and one of his 8 vehicles. Destroyer Lords took a beating, but when everything in front dies they'll go down eventually. Not amazing, I rolled well enough on their saves they at least survived more than they should. But the fact they did maybe 6 wounds combined just isn't enough to justify them, I'd rather have more shooting. Spyder and Cryptek stayed with my two DDAs while the rest of my list moved forward, opponent ignored them so Spyder and Cryptek were wasted. Rolled badly for DDAs so spending the pts on Spyder and Cryptek for him to ignore them was not worth it. Spyder died very quickly when my opponent eventually felt like it. No healing done.
Won a game against Death Watch with the same list. Lost about a third of my list. Destroyer Lord with Nanoscarab Casket died like a complete chump, 3 wounds from Overwatch, then did two wounds and died to a Captain without getting back up. I was much more aggressive with my DDAs and Spyder. My opponent was at least forced to make the Spyder a priority, so that wasn't bad. Making a little castle and hoping your opponent leaves a vehicle to live isn't an effective use of a Spyder I don't think, it really needs to be able to cover a lot of vehicles at once before it becomes worth it, but even then it's absurdly easy to kill. Not worth the pts in these games. Nightmare Shroud wasn't very good in the first game, it was better in the second game, I'd rather have had the veil of darkness in the former and void scythe in the latter game. Destroyer Lords were the right choice for this army, but nowhere near amazing and the list they are supporting isn't amazing in the first place. Healing a Warrior a turn just isn't worth a Ghost Ark and hiding them inside gives them a little more utility, but I'd rather have had Immortals. Used Sautekh once to Advance and fire once in two games, I'll try it as Mephrit next time.
Played an ITC game against another DW player who was apparently 4/0 so far, having beaten two Knights lists. I was bringing my double Tesseract list so everything was fine. My opponent was a really nice guy so when I forgot about my powers T2 he allowed me to do them... I forgot them again T3 and this time I declined to use them. I won the game easily, I lost a Vault and two DDAs, at least one of them would have lived had I remembered my powers turn 3. This list continues to be amazing. I think I'm going to stick with Sautekh Vaults, the +1 to hit seems more valuable than the +1 to saving throws. I was too focussed on annihilating my opponent, I could have easily gotten more VP, but I just wanted to win the game ASAP. Also need to keep a unit alive for T 5 and T 6.
I think the Seraptek is great. 2 ways to deal flat DMG 6, is a beast in CC, very fast.
Only issue is the pts cost and 5++. If it was 4++ and around 500pts it would be an auto take for the most part.
Best way to play is either have it in the cover with LOSB terrain and using it's gun to pick of models with lots of wounds. OR, equip the other guns, have it go up the baord, shoot and charge into enemy infantry/swarm blobs for protection.
We can also use the stratgem to bring it to it's too bracket so it can do the dmg after soaking some wounds. Might be worth it to bring a spyder and cloaktek for healing.
Could be cool to build a canoptek army around this thing, with the Nihilakh stratagem save it should be quite fearsome, and it should be able to reach an objective marker with 16" move.
Oh, you get FW rules for free now? That's nice. As I thought, you do a dedicated AT weapon and a more anti-infantry weapon, with the singularity generator being somewhere in between.
Interesting that is says it may replace the singularity generators with projectors AND Obliterators. That would imply its part of the same weapon. Edit : Ah, and so it is, according to the store page. I think this might be the optimal weapon configuration for it, especially as if you buy one its one configuration or the other. Unless you want to spend like 50 on the other weapons. Goddammit FW.
You also don't pay extra for the weapons, it seems, which is odd. I don't see what's wrong wiith 625 poins. Seems reasonable to me.
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p5freak wrote: Knights can only move over infantry and swarm when falling back. This thing has some nice rules, but 3+/5++ and 625 pts. is a no go.
With T8, 28w, regen and you have other units that can repair it. As well as some nice weapons. It doesn't look that bad.
With T8, 28w, regen and you have other units that can repair it. As well as some nice weapons. It doesn't look that bad.
A knight has T8, W24 and can get 2+/3++, for less than 500 pts. Without ranged weapons the gallant can get 2+/3++ for less than 400 pts.
How good are the weapons though? Can they get a S16 gun? For whatever reason, it seems they are pricing the Construct based on that configuration, rather than doing the convenient thing and giving you the usual base model cost + weapon options. It takes 4 unsaved wounds from that obliterator to kill a knight, and they are going to wound it on 2s at 72" range. How many unsaved wounds would the knight have to inflict on the Construct to destroy it?
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Oh, you get FW rules for free now? That's nice.
As I thought, you do a dedicated AT weapon and a more anti-infantry weapon, with the singularity generator being somewhere in between.
Interesting that is says it may replace the singularity generators with projectors AND Obliterators. That would imply its part of the same weapon.
You also don't pay extra for the weapons, it seems, which is odd.
I don't see what's wrong with 625 poins. Seems reasonable to me.
5 units of Ultramarine Devastators with 4 lascannons each, a Captain and a Lieutenant. That's 900 pts and kills it in one turn, that's a moderately good counter and that's a devastating loss. Then there's a Shadowsword or a Pylon which will kill it for less than 600 pts. It's damage is fine for it's cost, but it's most likely going to die before getting enough damage off to justify it's cost. 3 DDAs is 50% more wounds, worse saves and toughness, but QS, much more survivable against most opponents and same damage output. There are few things that are able to keep up with it as it runs up the table, making it hard to screen against smite. With a good explodes result it'll probably make it's pts back, with a bad one it'll take half your army with it as it dies T1.
Being the only wholly positive guy about this new thing you'll be laughing when it turns out to be meta, but I doubt it.
Why would you run it up the table though? It has 72" range. There is little reason to move it anywhere. And even if you do move it, you don't have to move it its full distance. Shadow Swords and Pylons are designed to kill units like that, so yeah, of course its an efficient counter. Try hiding it. Yes, its big, but if you don't have large LOS blockers you aren't playing 40k right.
Yes, 25 devastators could probably kill a construct in 1 turn. Provided they all have line of sight and the first turn. What about the 275 pts of other necron models too? For that I can take 5 destroyers, and use them to kill some devastators.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Why would you run it up the table though? It has 72" range. There is little reason to move it anywhere.
Shadow Swords and Pylons are designed to kill units like that, so yeah, of course its an efficient counter.
Try hiding it. Yes, its big, but if you don't have large LOS blockers you aren't playing 40k right.
shoot a tank first first, then smash up two more in a parking lot in CC
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Why would you run it up the table though? It has 72" range. There is little reason to move it anywhere.
t.
because when it blows ... it's taking half your army with it ... you want it 12" away from all your toys
Also ... 18 stomps ...with Novokh re-rolls (and more hits on 6's if you're brave to put the warlord up there with it) and a 16" movement ... yeah ... it needs to be in the enemy face asap
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Why would you run it up the table though? It has 72" range. There is little reason to move it anywhere.
t.
because when it blows ... it's taking half your army with it ... you want it 12" away from all your toys
Also ... 18 stomps ...with Novokh re-rolls (and more hits on 6's if you're brave to put the warlord up there with it) and a 16" movement ... yeah ... it needs to be in the enemy face asap
Try hiding it. Yes, its big, but if you don't have large LOS blockers you aren't playing 40k right.
because if it's well hidden enough to get cover .. then the enemy is also able to deny you 625 points of your killing potential
You can move, you know? Hiding is to stop it from being destroyed on the first turn. On your turn you can move it out and try to eliminate or cripple a threat with the support of your army.
As it doesn't suffer hit penalties from moving, there is no reason not to do that.
You wont get far with the stupid movement rules of 40k. Even the tiniest piece of terrain will cost you movement. A piece of terrain that is both 1" tall and wide will cost you 3" to move over it. If you hide inside a ruin your 16" move will barely get you out of it.
I think it's priced fairly well, I don't want to see Forgeworld Titans coming out and dominating the meta.
Its offense is much better than its defense, which means it's not going to be a tournament favorite due to the possibility of being blown up on turn 1. It can do some serious damage though with all the flat 6's and mortal wound explosion. This is how forge world units should be: great potential damage, so that you can have some fun games stomping face with your fancy model, but too inconsistent to be showing up in all the tournaments.
You wont get far with the stupid movement rules of 40k. Even the tiniest piece of terrain will cost you movement. A piece of terrain that is both 1" tall and wide will cost you 3" to move over it. If you hide inside a ruin your 16" move will barely get you out of it.
Nobody in the real world is going to tell you to take 3" off your big spider walkers movement because of a bit of debris.
I almost missed the whole "Replace Singularity Generators with Synaptic Obliterators and Transdimensional Projectors" part
Things got a solid amount of dakka in either case. Really Really high AP, and solid damage output. Could it be run Nihiliak for the save boosting strategem, paired with "Take Cover Beta Strategem to functionally give it 1+ Armor Save turn 1 to help keep it safe vs anti vehicle fire?
I WANT to run this thing, but that points (and USD) price tag scares me. i want to have a plan for it before i buy.
Also that new strat doesn't stack with cover anyway.
To get the most out of this thing you probably want to go Nihilak, and take the Deceiver.
It's durability is it's biggest weakness, so the Nihilak strat will be the biggest benefit. The Deceiver lets you redeploy it after you see where your opponents guns are, which also helps improve it's chances of surviving the first turn. Bit of an expensive investment though.
iGuy91 wrote: I almost missed the whole "Replace Singularity Generators with Synaptic Obliterators and Transdimensional Projectors" part
Things got a solid amount of dakka in either case. Really Really high AP, and solid damage output. Could it be run Nihiliak for the save boosting strategem, paired with "Take Cover Beta Strategem to functionally give it 1+ Armor Save turn 1 to help keep it safe vs anti vehicle fire?
I WANT to run this thing, but that points (and USD) price tag scares me. i want to have a plan for it before i buy.
You can run it in a Supreme or Heavy Aux detachment for dynasty benefits.
It's best ran in Nihilakh or Novokh. Novokh because you can make it go from 18 S8 -2 d D3 to 36 s8 -2 d D3 attacks. Or, 6 S16 -4 d 6 to 12 S16 -4 db6 for the cost of 3CP.
Oddly enough, it does more DMG in CC than shooting. So, like all Canoptek stuff, it's built for CC and the guns are secondary. Singularity Generator is better for deleting basically anything from a far while also being your Deployment zone defender if you get Deepstriked by the opponent because of it's 18 S8 -2 d D3 attacks. Or, you can run the S. obliterators + T.Projectors and have it walk up the filed soaking up dmg while laying out a respectable amount of dakka.
We could run it in a Heavy Aux w/ Construct, 2 Vaults + Supreme com. Of 2 D Lord's, Cloaktek and Deceiver. Cloaktek to heal the Construct, Construct w/ Singularity Generators for anti- tank/Mortation/Magnus, vaults for C'tan MWs, 24 Tesla shoots, Deceiver to move stuff around and D Lord's for some CC up front or to help the Construct in CC. Not that it needs it.
However good it is, it looks super fun. Running it headlong at the enemy on a 16 INCH move (that's potentially a t1 charge there) to be an enormous distraction as well as doing heaps of damage. It looks like, if used correctly, could be really really good.
With T8, 28w, regen and you have other units that can repair it. As well as some nice weapons.
It doesn't look that bad.
A knight has T8, W24 and can get 2+/3++, for less than 500 pts. Without ranged weapons the gallant can get 2+/3++ for less than 400 pts.
But ony 1 knight. Strategems etc aren't part of prices. Knight is same with less wounds.
(And nevermind stompa that is softer, shoot less and costs 50% more. Oh and slower
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p5freak wrote: You wont get far with the stupid movement rules of 40k. Even the tiniest piece of terrain will cost you movement. A piece of terrain that is both 1" tall and wide will cost you 3" to move over it. If you hide inside a ruin your 16" move will barely get you out of it.
Well 2" less. You don't need to cover it at once. 1" up, 1" down. 1" wide you would be going forward anyway
iGuy91 wrote: I almost missed the whole "Replace Singularity Generators with Synaptic Obliterators and Transdimensional Projectors" part
Things got a solid amount of dakka in either case. Really Really high AP, and solid damage output. Could it be run Nihiliak for the save boosting strategem, paired with "Take Cover Beta Strategem to functionally give it 1+ Armor Save turn 1 to help keep it safe vs anti vehicle fire?
I WANT to run this thing, but that points (and USD) price tag scares me. i want to have a plan for it before i buy.
Its ok, most things that want to kill Titanic units don't really care about 2+ saves that much anyway. Its why you have an invul.
You're better off trying to hide it to completely negate shooting.
iGuy91 wrote: I almost missed the whole "Replace Singularity Generators with Synaptic Obliterators and Transdimensional Projectors" part
Things got a solid amount of dakka in either case. Really Really high AP, and solid damage output. Could it be run Nihiliak for the save boosting strategem, paired with "Take Cover Beta Strategem to functionally give it 1+ Armor Save turn 1 to help keep it safe vs anti vehicle fire?
I WANT to run this thing, but that points (and USD) price tag scares me. i want to have a plan for it before i buy.
Nihilakh stratagem is end of turn
Yes, but that's ok because if you were clever about objective placement or got the first turn, you should be able to leave it out in the open, deal some damage with it and then use the stratagem to give it a 2+ / 4++ save against any retaliation. Nihilakh is actually looking pretty good for it. Those rerolls would help that obliterator nicely.
Mephrit could also be useful, but only for the strat.
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tneva82 wrote: Hiding that is likely be rare though. Especially tournament/flgs boards
My FLGS actually has quite a few LOS blockers. One terrain piece is this huge trio of silos that's like 12" long and 12" high. Do Tournaments not have LoS Blockers? No wonder it sounds so screwed up. They're playing 8th ed wrong.
Yeah, reroll 1s with the 3+ BS is a solid idea, however, it also feels a shame to waste that Movement of 16 standing still to get it.... Guess it depends on the opponent because this thing is no slouch in melee either, and taking the 72 inch guns and staying so far away is a waste of the secondary weapons.
Mephrit is a waste on the thing since its AP is stupid good
Sautehk...Advance and shoot...might not be bad...but no charge afterwords...ehhh....
Nephrehk .....guarenteed 22inch movement on an advance? Nice, but still no charge...
Novohk...running this thing into melee with rerolls is mean. and the explosion on it is brutal....not a bad prospect.
Nihiliak - Helps address some of the durability i guess, reroll ones if you stand still...hm.
iGuy91 wrote: I almost missed the whole "Replace Singularity Generators with Synaptic Obliterators and Transdimensional Projectors" part
Things got a solid amount of dakka in either case. Really Really high AP, and solid damage output. Could it be run Nihiliak for the save boosting strategem, paired with "Take Cover Beta Strategem to functionally give it 1+ Armor Save turn 1 to help keep it safe vs anti vehicle fire?
I WANT to run this thing, but that points (and USD) price tag scares me. i want to have a plan for it before i buy.
Nihilakh stratagem is end of turn
Yes, but that's ok because if you were clever about objective placement or got the first turn, you should be able to leave it out in the open, deal some damage with it and then use the stratagem to give it a 2+ / 4++ save against any retaliation.
Nihilakh is actually looking pretty good for it. Those rerolls would help that obliterator nicely.
Mephrit could also be useful, but only for the strat.
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tneva82 wrote: Hiding that is likely be rare though. Especially tournament/flgs boards
My FLGS actually has quite a few LOS blockers. One terrain piece is this huge trio of silos that's like 12" long and 12" high.
Do Tournaments not have LoS Blockers? No wonder it sounds so screwed up. They're playing 8th ed wrong.
Many don't have 100% solid walls especially size of warmachines. Generally it seems to be gw made terrain which is useless for terrain blocking
ex: If I have 3 units in reserve but only one thing on the table and opponent gets rid of that am I unable to continue and my team has to go on without me?
Or can I then DS / enter the table as normal on later turns cause my ally is still in play?
iGuy91 wrote: Yeah, reroll 1s with the 3+ BS is a solid idea, however, it also feels a shame to waste that Movement of 16 standing still to get it.... Guess it depends on the opponent because this thing is no slouch in melee either, and taking the 72 inch guns and staying so far away is a waste of the secondary weapons.
Mephrit is a waste on the thing since its AP is stupid good Sautehk...Advance and shoot...might not be bad...but no charge afterwords...ehhh.... Nephrehk .....guarenteed 22inch movement on an advance? Nice, but still no charge... Novohk...running this thing into melee with rerolls is mean. and the explosion on it is brutal....not a bad prospect. Nihiliak - Helps address some of the durability i guess, reroll ones if you stand still...hm.
Ugh..that $$$ price tag just boils my blood.
Just think of the movement 16 as adding to its kiting potential, so that if something does get close it can just run away and shoot them. Novokh would be pretty hilarious on it, and it would get those transdimensional weapons to use. But it would also expose it to enemy fire.
What I like about it is that it has high offense but relatively weak defense, which means you actually have to think carefully what to do with it and watch out for threats. To me that's good design.
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Necronplayer wrote: Yeah, it looks pretty underwhelming coming in at 625 points.
Could have used the Macro keyword.
EDIT: I misread the first bullet. Lol
It has 2 Heavy D3 S16 guns, each with flat 6 damage. Its already wounding most things on 2+ and everything else on 3+. Macro would be excessive. If you want a dedicated titan-killer use pylons. This can be used for titan killing, But its more effective against medium to heavy vehicles, an unit type that necrons have problems against atm. Against light Lord of War units (such as knights equivalent) it does do a good job (just needs 4 unsaved ones to kill a knight, and you are probably going to wound with every hit), and anything less than that isn't going to last a turn.
tneva82 wrote: 2heavy d3 gun or i'm looking diffrent sheet. Heavy d6 are the s6 ones. Not s16
Bah sorry, typo. They are indeed D3. 2 D6 would make them even better, but I understand why they aren't. Speaking of the D6 guns, they aren't too bad either. They deal D3 damage each and have a chance of generating a mortal wound. The range is a bit short, but as a supporting weapon for the main gun they aren't too bad. Obviously more heavy infantry focused though.
I'm not quite sure what targets the Singularity Generator is supposed to be used against. The Obliterator is already good against vehicles and it comes with an anti-infantry weapon. The Generator has higher potential max damage (108 opposed to 36), but the chances of actually getting that is extremely slim, and the obliterator seems to have a more reliable damage output overall.
Around the same price as a Knight Castellan, not as good. On the bright side, Castellans are PROBABLY getting nerfed in CA, so maybe it'll wind up comparable!
Around the same price as a Knight Castellan, not as good. On the bright side, Castellans are PROBABLY getting nerfed in CA, so maybe it'll wind up comparable!
You are most likely correct. I for one would like some maths.
Unit of 6 Destroyers with EP:
3+: 14.8
5++: 11.85
4++: 8.89
3++: 5.92
The output is nice at that range it has, but I don't see it living past first turn in knight meta. A couple of DDAs are more likely to survive first turn with QS too. I.e. I wouldn't plan on using this for AV unless you intend to move and use the melee profile as well, but I don't think it will last past turn 1.
Expanded mathhammer, hopefully getting the same results as Necronplayer.
Spoiler:
Singularity Generator 6 shots
4 hits
Against T8, 3+
2 wounds
5/3 unsaved
35/6 damage, or 5.83 per gun
T8, 5++
2 wounds
4/3 unsaved
14/3 damage, or 4.67 per gun
T8, 4++
2 wounds
1 unsaved
7/2 damage, or 3.5 per gun
T8, 3++
2 wounds
2/3 unsaved
7/3 damage, or 2.33 per gun
For all sets of 4 hits, add 2/3 Mortal Wounds.
Synaptic Obliterator 2 shots
4/3 hits
Against T8, 3+
10/9 wounds
10/9 unsaved
60/9 damage, or 6.67 per gun
T8, 5++
10/9 wounds
20/27 unsaved
40/9 damage, or 4.44 per gun
T8, 4++
10/9 wounds
5/9 unsaved
10/3 damage, or 3.33 per gun
T8, 3++
10/9 wounds
10/27 unsaved
20/9 damage, or 2.22 per gun
Imma stop here, because Necronplayer was clearly on the ball with their maths. I'm getting all the same results.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Wait, how can the 72" weapon deal 4 damage when every unsaved wound deals 6 flat damage?
It's average damage. So, to put it in practical terms, it would deal 12 damage over 3 turns, most likely, or do one unsaved wound two out of every three turns.
Interesting, so that means that the obliterator is more effective against things without an invul, and slightly less effective against things with an invul, provided no mortal wounds are inflicted. That would explain the Generator's purpose then. What about the transdimensional weapon? That's packaged with the obliterator, and can also generate mortal wounds.
You get your damage up front though. That flat 6 damage seems to be more useful in practice than on paper. On paper, destroyers with EP can kill tanks. In practice, I found them underwhelming. Since they do perform similarly, that would explain why they didn't make different points costs though. I guess in the end it depends on if you love mortal wounds or you love long range artillery and S16.
Around the same price as a Knight Castellan, not as good. On the bright side, Castellans are PROBABLY getting nerfed in CA, so maybe it'll wind up comparable!
You think? My thoughts were it's actually better than a Castellan minus Cawl's Wrath and 4++ Warlord Trait. Can we get comparison numbers on both against a T7 3+/5++ target and a T8 3+/5++ target or is that too much mathing to ask?
EDIT: You guys post fast, maths for this thing are up.
The real $ is killing me. I was hoping for a 195$ kit at most. For a kit with a whopping TWO choices in load out it is a little ridiculous and the thing is just knight size so not really that big.
Pyrothem wrote: The real $ is killing me. I was hoping for a 195$ kit at most. For a kit with a whopping TWO choices in load out it is a little ridiculous and the thing is just knight size so not really that big.
What's shocking are the weapons.
It's 244 for the model + 1 weapon option. If you want the other weapon option that's 44 So if you want the complete model with both weapon options for variety, that's 288.
Just a note for the people whining about the cost IRL, this thing with both weapon options is still cheaper than a Warhound body alone...
and albeit it's not much bigger than a Knight, but the Castellan/Valiant Kits are 100 a pop in GBP, so 200 for this thing made of Resin instead of plastic isnt actually that bad.
Plus, I cant rememebr who posted it, but I could see the other canoptek units we have getting a similar rule to the "unstoppable colossus" rule it has once CA drops.
I personally welcome it, and look forward to bringing it into my currently gunline-centric local meta.
Pyrothem wrote: The real $ is killing me. I was hoping for a 195$ kit at most. For a kit with a whopping TWO choices in load out it is a little ridiculous and the thing is just knight size so not really that big.
tneva82 wrote: 2heavy d3 gun or i'm looking diffrent sheet. Heavy d6 are the s6 ones. Not s16
Bah sorry, typo. They are indeed D3.
2 D6 would make them even better, but I understand why they aren't.
Speaking of the D6 guns, they aren't too bad either. They deal D3 damage each and have a chance of generating a mortal wound. The range is a bit short, but as a supporting weapon for the main gun they aren't too bad.
Obviously more heavy infantry focused though.
I'm not quite sure what targets the Singularity Generator is supposed to be used against.
The Obliterator is already good against vehicles and it comes with an anti-infantry weapon.
The Generator has higher potential max damage (108 opposed to 36), but the chances of actually getting that is extremely slim, and the obliterator seems to have a more reliable damage output overall.
Yeah singularity is bit weak option though the one good thing about it is that damage output isn't as on/off. It's about comparable IIRC vs T8 5++ target with the other option but probably bit less swingy due to more shots. But yeah that's likely the worse option and good candinate for errata in future.
I do like the weapons of it...they really feel like FW Necrons...high AP, nice effects...they even addressed the random dmg and gave it STRAIGHT 6 for the one weapon...
Its just its defensive stats in addition to its cost that brakes it for me...8th edition got more lethal with every codex climaxing in the knights codex...even Orks have high profile shots (only at bad BS) with their new codex...in this meta and espacially in 8th edition I dont see this thing surviving past turn 2 if you go second...
With T8, 28w, regen and you have other units that can repair it. As well as some nice weapons.
It doesn't look that bad.
A knight has T8, W24 and can get 2+/3++, for less than 500 pts. Without ranged weapons the gallant can get 2+/3++ for less than 400 pts.
But ony 1 knight. Strategems etc aren't part of prices. Knight is same with less wounds.
(And nevermind stompa that is softer, shoot less and costs 50% more. Oh and slower
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p5freak wrote: You wont get far with the stupid movement rules of 40k. Even the tiniest piece of terrain will cost you movement. A piece of terrain that is both 1" tall and wide will cost you 3" to move over it. If you hide inside a ruin your 16" move will barely get you out of it.
Well 2" less. You don't need to cover it at once. 1" up, 1" down. 1" wide you would be going forward anyway
Dude the Ork codex isn't even out yet. Quit your whining.
You don't need codex to come out before knowing rules. Heard the term leaks? We know price of stompa. We know it's rules. GW even was kind enough to provide the weapons. It got boosted up weapons which is nice but with BS5+ still even close to comparable to this one. Fact. It got extra attacks in h2h but nerfed degration table negates that advantage. Another fact. We know the price which got only insignificant drop. There's no inv save in it. It got nothing major and still costs more than twice the knights that out-tough it, out-shoots it and ties with h2h.
But yeah guess you are the kind of person that needs to jump to lava to know it's bad idea. Eventhough facts are already known.
I wish there was a cheaper option to run it as pure CC, since they offer the model that way, I'm forced to wonder why?
To me, the guns are nice, but I see this as a CC critter. I just wish it had the Canoptek keyword. The guns just give it usefulness before it gets in close.
tneva82 wrote: You don't need codex to come out before knowing rules. Heard the term leaks? We know price of stompa. We know it's rules. GW even was kind enough to provide the weapons. It got boosted up weapons which is nice but with BS5+ still even close to comparable to this one. Fact. It got extra attacks in h2h but nerfed degration table negates that advantage. Another fact. We know the price which got only insignificant drop. There's no inv save in it. It got nothing major and still costs more than twice the knights that out-tough it, out-shoots it and ties with h2h.
But yeah guess you are the kind of person that needs to jump to lava to know it's bad idea. Eventhough facts are already known.
You're the person that cries the sky is falling at the drop of a hat. You're the last Ork player I would listen to.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Why would you run it up the table though? It has 72" range. There is little reason to move it anywhere.
Because it kills a Knight in a round of CC? Just playtested the Novokh version against Knights/Death Watch. Snuck in and killed a crusader, 6 attacks, 6 hits, 6 wounds, no saves, 36 damage, Taranis 6+ FNP did not help it. Lost the game, won't go into too much detail because I'm pretty tired and I was playing even more poorly than I usually do. It did die pretty easily, but its damage is through the roof, assuming you don't roll 1 for the number of shots on both obliterators and then fail to hit with both shots... Ran Voidscythe on one D-Lord, did not work very well, but I was just playing silly this game so it's not really something worth taking into consideration.
It's a great Knight Killer, I still think it's too expensive for its durability.
I played with it being 9" long, which is how long it looks to be on the comparisson with a Marine, although if the Marine is on a larger base it might be more like 11". Hiding it might be possible against some lists, but most meta armies can move and fire without penalty with M12" or doesn't even need to see you in the first place. Hiding is more or less out of the question, maybe from some of your opponent's units, but not all. I really don't think maps should include any terrain more than 5" tall, Knights don't need places to hide, they need places to die.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Why would you run it up the table though? It has 72" range. There is little reason to move it anywhere.
Because it kills a Knight in a round of CC? Just playtested the Novokh version against Knights/Death Watch. Snuck in and killed a crusader, 6 attacks, 6 hits, 6 wounds, no saves, 36 damage, Taranis 6+ FNP did not help it. Lost the game, won't go into too much detail because I'm pretty tired and I was playing even more poorly than I usually do. It did die pretty easily, but its damage is through the roof, assuming you don't roll 1 for the number of shots on both obliterators and then fail to hit with both shots... Ran Voidscythe on one D-Lord, did not work very well, but I was just playing silly this game so it's not really something worth taking into consideration.
It's a great Knight Killer, I still think it's too expensive for its durability.
I played with it being 9" long, which is how long it looks to be on the comparisson with a Marine, although if the Marine is on a larger base it might be more like 11". Hiding it might be possible against some lists, but most meta armies can move and fire without penalty with M12" or doesn't even need to see you in the first place. Hiding is more or less out of the question, maybe from some of your opponent's units, but not all. I really don't think maps should include any terrain more than 5" tall, Knights don't need places to hide, they need places to die.
Yeah, I just saw that it deals 6 flat damage in melee. That's pretty nasty, especially if you shoot first before charging. If knights get a points increase (and they should. Knight armies are stupid), then it might become more viable.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Why would you run it up the table though? It has 72" range. There is little reason to move it anywhere.
Because it kills a Knight in a round of CC? Just playtested the Novokh version against Knights/Death Watch. Snuck in and killed a crusader, 6 attacks, 6 hits, 6 wounds, no saves, 36 damage, Taranis 6+ FNP did not help it. Lost the game, won't go into too much detail because I'm pretty tired and I was playing even more poorly than I usually do. It did die pretty easily, but its damage is through the roof, assuming you don't roll 1 for the number of shots on both obliterators and then fail to hit with both shots... Ran Voidscythe on one D-Lord, did not work very well, but I was just playing silly this game so it's not really something worth taking into consideration.
It's a great Knight Killer, I still think it's too expensive for its durability.
I played with it being 9" long, which is how long it looks to be on the comparisson with a Marine, although if the Marine is on a larger base it might be more like 11". Hiding it might be possible against some lists, but most meta armies can move and fire without penalty with M12" or doesn't even need to see you in the first place. Hiding is more or less out of the question, maybe from some of your opponent's units, but not all. I really don't think maps should include any terrain more than 5" tall, Knights don't need places to hide, they need places to die.
Yeah, I just saw that it deals 6 flat damage in melee. That's pretty nasty, especially if you shoot first before charging.
If knights get a points increase (and they should. Knight armies are stupid), then it might become more viable.
This is what I am kind of seeing. I think we really need to see how CA approved treats us. If other units like Knights go up in cost, this guy gets much better. Espiecally if we see some major point drops for our units, so we can fit more on the table.
I may pop by the Citadel in Grapevine and pick this guy up.
Welp. Time to start talking about how to counter ork speedfreaks moving 20 inches and charging turn 1 with full rerolls. Are conservative deployments and scarab screens the best method? Thoughts?
iGuy91 wrote: Welp. Time to start talking about how to counter ork speedfreaks moving 20 inches and charging turn 1 with full rerolls. Are conservative deployments and scarab screens the best method? Thoughts?
Well considering their poor saving throws I would think flamers might actually be vi-oh, right we don't have those.
iGuy91 wrote: Welp. Time to start talking about how to counter ork speedfreaks moving 20 inches and charging turn 1 with full rerolls. Are conservative deployments and scarab screens the best method? Thoughts?
Well considering their poor saving throws I would think flamers might actually be vi-oh, right we don't have those.
Silly you! We OBVIOUSLY do have flamers!
I present you the Triarch Stalker! With one of his weapons (forgot the name) you get a D6 flamer profile IN ADDITION to its very strong HEAVY D6 shots! and D6 wounds main profile with 24“ range, means moving gives you a -1 to hit! Isnt that awesome? But wait...This deadly weapon is mounted on a T6 4+ QS chassis! BUT WAIT THATS STILL NOT IT!! Because the Stalker is a Triarch unit it doesnt benefit from dynasty codes...All this for a bargain at ~160points...If that didnt sell it to you I dont know what will....
Don't forget, we use MWBD tesla immortals instead of flamers. With great success. With 3 hits per model on average, those are essentially 24" S5 flamers
Except for overwatch. of course. But once they're up close, they likely charge the guys standing next to those with flamers.
On the contrary, I think Mephrit Gunline could be contender for best counter to Orks
the closer they get, the more effective our weapons get.
a unit of MWBD Tesla immortals in front of a unit of 20 Warriors backed up by a Lord and a ChronoTek will be a nice brick, with some not-exactly-gak CC ability, but granted he wouldnt ever survive vs a horde, the bikers should be ok.
>Immortals shoot
>Immortals get charged
>Immortals either Fall Back or Die
If they fall back, awesome, they repeat the process with better AP
If they Die, just MWBD the Warriors and cast the Mephrit Strat for moar dakka
minimum 40 shots hitting on 2+, making extra shots on a 5+ (assume same wording as tesla, can't check right now), all of which re-roll wounds of a 1, at S4 Ap2, plus the 6 shots at S5AP3 just to finish things off
Supreme Command Overlord w/ Res, maybe the Voltaic Stave
Res Lord w/ SoL
Res Lord w/ SoL
Triarch Stalker w/ Heat Ray
(2x 10 Preatorians w/ Pistols & Voidblades to DS in, harass flanks or hunt Lootas, or something)
then extra shennanigans to your own preferences. Might be worth something?
Maybe take the big guy as well, just to reliably pop Battlewagons and make those MANZ walk
Math says 20 MWBD warriros kill 17 orks. Exploding 6s kill another 3. They then charge in to kill another 7. (minus overwatch losses). Nobs not included.
Would be interesting to see an Ork horde vs Tyranid horde matchup.
torblind wrote: Math says 20 MWBD warriros kill 17 orks. Exploding 6s kill another 3. They then charge in to kill another 7. (minus overwatch losses). Nobs not included.
Would be interesting to see an Ork horde vs Tyranid horde matchup.
We have a tyranid player at my FLGS. I want to play hoard orks against him now. He usually fields something like 18-20 stealers, 30 gaunts with devourers, and 27 hormagants.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: We have a tyranid player at my FLGS. I want to play hoard orks against him now. He usually fields something like 18-20 stealers, 30 gaunts with devourers, and 27 hormagants.
IHateNids wrote: On the contrary, I think Mephrit Gunline could be contender for best counter to Orks
the closer they get, the more effective our weapons get.
a unit of MWBD Tesla immortals in front of a unit of 20 Warriors backed up by a Lord and a ChronoTek will be a nice brick, with some not-exactly-gak CC ability, but granted he wouldnt ever survive vs a horde, the bikers should be ok.
>Immortals shoot >Immortals get charged >Immortals either Fall Back or Die
If they fall back, awesome, they repeat the process with better AP
If they Die, just MWBD the Warriors and cast the Mephrit Strat for moar dakka
minimum 40 shots hitting on 2+, making extra shots on a 5+ (assume same wording as tesla, can't check right now), all of which re-roll wounds of a 1, at S4 Ap2, plus the 6 shots at S5AP3 just to finish things off
Supreme Command Overlord w/ Res, maybe the Voltaic Stave Res Lord w/ SoL Res Lord w/ SoL Triarch Stalker w/ Heat Ray (2x 10 Preatorians w/ Pistols & Voidblades to DS in, harass flanks or hunt Lootas, or something)
then extra shennanigans to your own preferences. Might be worth something?
Maybe take the big guy as well, just to reliably pop Battlewagons and make those MANZ walk
I don't think it's worth sacrificing your Immortals first just because they'll do some decent Overwatch. I'd much rather have them stay behind the Warriors, which are more likely to survive shooting and thereby protecting the Immortals, whereas the Immortals are more likely to be more or less shot to pieces and then charged around so you tie up the Warriors as well as Immortals.
I think Ghost Arks are very near must haves in any list with 2x20 Warriors, they're definitely ten times better than spamming Res Orbs, you don't really have anything else to heal than Warriors, so that's 105 pts out of the cost of a Ghost Ark, you're just spending way too much on HQs, ours aren't very good, spend the least amount possible. You also can't put three Elites in a Supreme Command, Triarch Praetorians also cannot DS and in case you missed it they don't benefit from being part of a Dynasty or any of your auras except that of Szeras. I find that units of 9 Scarabs are overkill, compared to a unit of 7 you only really get 3 more wounds, if you kill one more then that means an additional one is going to flee in the Morale phase. I go 3 because it's the min squad size and it's all you need to hold an objective or DS denial or 7 if I want to use them to tie units up or shield characters from shooting, no more because of Ld. Your list seems to be way too focussed on getting rid of Orks, you're going to get reamed really hard by Knights, at least I have every time I brought my similar list against them. Voltaic Stave is nowhere near as valuable as Veil of Darkness, it's a key item specifically against melee armies like Orks because it means you can get a unit out of being surrounded, which can mean your opponent no longer having several invulnerable units near your lines.
Won a game with my Szeras/Anrakyr balance list against a Necron Quantum Shielding list. My opponent ignored my Destroyers because he had no DDAs, they destroyed two vehicles a turn more or less. My opponent was running his Quantum Shielding list as Mephrit and that seems better than the Sautekh QS list I've been doing. I accidentally used an old version of my list. Updated version is below.
I'm still pretty new, and I haven't faced Orks yet in 8th edition, but I feel hordes and infantry in general is pretty easy for us to take care of this edition!
Warriors are cheap(ish) and tough, especially with cryptek, they make a great anti-horde bubble. Keep immortals behind them and out of range of consolidation moves. Buff the Tesla Immortals with MWBD, if there is a particularly nasty horde unit, they are great at supporting fire with Methodical Destruction.
DDAs get to shine! They are fast, tough, and great support with the flayer arrays! First turn though, don't move them and pop whatever battle wagon or LoW they might have.
Destroyers look like they will get a LOT better vs Orks as well, their new buggies are only t6, very easy for a solo unit of destroyers to pop one a turn, without even needing Extermination Protocols!
Necrons have issues vs vehicles, especially toughness 8, but infantry is something we can do.
I was thinking for orks doing a multi-layer phalanx
Scarabs --------------
20x warriors
2x10 Tesla Immortals
Supported by Anrakyr, and a Cryptek warlord with Immortal Pride and Veil of Darkness making the whole thing fearless, provide MWBD, and +1 attack and able to teleport out whatever portion of the warriors get engaged to ensure the Immortals keep shooting.
Back it up with 2x6 Destroyers which should make mincemeat of light vehicles without invuln saves?
It might just be my Oldcron bias, but I always find single squads of Warriors (or things with RP) odd. Before the retcon in 5th, you have to have a similar model within 6" for a model to be able to WBB (We'll Be Back!).
It's been automatic to have two of any unit that repairs that I forget you don't need to anymore.
Blndmage wrote: It might just be my Oldcron bias, but I always find single squads of Warriors (or things with RP) odd. Before the retcon in 5th, you have to have a similar model within 6" for a model to be able to WBB (We'll Be Back!).
It's been automatic to have two of any unit that repairs that I forget you don't need to anymore.
I mean, never hurts to have more than one of something. Redundancy has its place.
That, and I tend to run my formations really tight since out buff bubbles are tiny. So I still get that feel kinda
Blndmage wrote: It might just be my Oldcron bias, but I always find single squads of Warriors (or things with RP) odd. Before the retcon in 5th, you have to have a similar model within 6" for a model to be able to WBB (We'll Be Back!).
It's been automatic to have two of any unit that repairs that I forget you don't need to anymore.
I mean, never hurts to have more than one of something. Redundancy has its place.
That, and I tend to run my formations really tight since out buff bubbles are tiny. So I still get that feel kinda
Well, above anything else, for 8thcrons, redundancy has its price.
On the contrary, I think Mephrit Gunline could be contender for best counter to Orks
the closer they get, the more effective our weapons get.
a unit of MWBD Tesla immortals in front of a unit of 20 Warriors backed up by a Lord and a ChronoTek will be a nice brick, with some not-exactly-gak CC ability, but granted he wouldnt ever survive vs a horde, the bikers should be ok.
>Immortals shoot
>Immortals get charged
>Immortals either Fall Back or Die
If they fall back, awesome, they repeat the process with better AP
If they Die, just MWBD the Warriors and cast the Mephrit Strat for moar dakka
minimum 40 shots hitting on 2+, making extra shots on a 5+ (assume same wording as tesla, can't check right now), all of which re-roll wounds of a 1, at S4 Ap2, plus the 6 shots at S5AP3 just to finish things off
Supreme Command Overlord w/ Res, maybe the Voltaic Stave
Res Lord w/ SoL
Res Lord w/ SoL
Triarch Stalker w/ Heat Ray
(2x 10 Preatorians w/ Pistols & Voidblades to DS in, harass flanks or hunt Lootas, or something)
then extra shennanigans to your own preferences. Might be worth something?
Maybe take the big guy as well, just to reliably pop Battlewagons and make those MANZ walk
I don't think it's worth sacrificing your Immortals first just because they'll do some decent Overwatch. I'd much rather have them stay behind the Warriors, which are more likely to survive shooting and thereby protecting the Immortals, whereas the Immortals are more likely to be more or less shot to pieces and then charged around so you tie up the Warriors as well as Immortals.
I think Ghost Arks are very near must haves in any list with 2x20 Warriors, they're definitely ten times better than spamming Res Orbs, you don't really have anything else to heal than Warriors, so that's 105 pts out of the cost of a Ghost Ark, you're just spending way too much on HQs, ours aren't very good, spend the least amount possible.
You also can't put three Elites in a Supreme Command, Triarch Praetorians also cannot DS and in case you missed it they don't benefit from being part of a Dynasty or any of your auras except that of Szeras.
I find that units of 9 Scarabs are overkill, compared to a unit of 7 you only really get 3 more wounds, if you kill one more then that means an additional one is going to flee in the Morale phase. I go 3 because it's the min squad size and it's all you need to hold an objective or DS denial or 7 if I want to use them to tie units up or shield characters from shooting, no more because of Ld.
Your list seems to be way too focussed on getting rid of Orks, you're going to get reamed really hard by Knights, at least I have every time I brought my similar list against them.
Voltaic Stave is nowhere near as valuable as Veil of Darkness, it's a key item specifically against melee armies like Orks because it means you can get a unit out of being surrounded, which can mean your opponent no longer having several invulnerable units near your lines.
Pardon me splitting your paragraph up, it's just easier to point-for-point it.
Immortals at the front is nothing to do with overwatch, and everything to do with being in range for full effectiveness on T1 if you get first turn. If they're behind the Warriors, they can't be guaranteed shooting if you go first. I appreciate 'Chaff first', which is why Scarabs are out front. Not saying the idea is bad, just that it makes more sense to me.
Ghost Arks are always good, but way more expensive in an already-pricey list. the Res Orbs are questionable at best anyway, I just added them for staying power.
not putting three Elites in a Supreme Command is just an error on my part, I didnt know that. Move the Stalker to the Battalion and call it done.
Praetorians not having DS anymore is something I missed. I now have my codex to hand so I can actually check stuff before posting, and fair enough. Drop them in favour of Deathmarks to do the same job cheaper. Them not doing Auras wasnt an issue, they were never going to be in range by my design, but since they can't it's not relevant.
number of Scarabs is just preferencial. I find that both of my local ork players didnt like Scarabs existing quitely when I tell them each base puts out 4 attacks. more bases for more wounds, and a bigger factor in the opponant target priority list.
Given that Orks were the comment, forgive me for addressing Orks as the focus. It'll work just as well vs horde-mode Tyranids, although could probably use a Destroyer unit to take out MCs. and, as a general rule, I thouhgt everyone got reamed by Knights? Thats why everyone complains about them constantly. Also another reason to bring the Seraptehk, since we finally have a dedicated Knight Hunter Construct (accidental MC killer too. Neat, right?)
Veil is always useful as a rule, just questionable as what would it be used for given that against a horde you wont have anywhere useful to escape to under most circumstances. by all means take it, I know the Voltaic is awful, just semed like the better option than any of the other weapon options in a gunline build.
It is interesting that they did not keep the FNP effect on Necrons, yet many armies now have it outside of the Death Guard. Even Orks now have the Snakebites Clan Kultur that also included their vehicles.
IHateNids wrote: Given that Orks were the comment, forgive me for addressing Orks as the focus. It'll work just as well vs horde-mode Tyranids, although could probably use a Destroyer unit to take out MCs. and, as a general rule, I thouhgt everyone got reamed by Knights? Thats why everyone complains about them constantly. Also another reason to bring the Seraptehk, since we finally have a dedicated Knight Hunter Construct (accidental MC killer too. Neat, right?)
There is a difference between a 5% and a 35% win chance. Your list almost no way to do any sort of damage to even a single Knight. Unless the meta becomes saturated with Orks or you just play one opponent I think your list is bad overall, I think by taking some anti-vehicle to deal with a variety of list you will be losing a neglible amount of chance of winning against horde lists compared to the much larger chance you'll have against most other lists. I don't think building to counter a specific opponent makes sense, you want to counter the meta you're playing in.
Lost a CA Malestrom against a Deathguard army with a Terminator bomb, a Renegade Knight and a couple of Armiger Helverins and some Plagueburst Crawlers with my double Tesseract Vault list. I took a chance to get a good round of cosmic fire where I probably should have retreated with one of my Vaults, my thinking was that it'd probably make for a good explosion, didn't work out. Got rid of the Knights, but was unable to get rid of the Terminators and his DP which went to town on my backlines around turn 4. I got annihilated and he had 3 Plagueburst Crawlers left.
Given that Orks were the comment, forgive me for addressing Orks as the focus. It'll work just as well vs horde-mode Tyranids, although could probably use a Destroyer unit to take out MCs. and, as a general rule, I thouhgt everyone got reamed by Knights? Thats why everyone complains about them constantly. Also another reason to bring the Seraptehk, since we finally have a dedicated Knight Hunter Construct (accidental MC killer too. Neat, right?)
There is a difference between a 5% and a 35% win chance. Your list almost no way to do any sort of damage to even a single Knight. Unless the meta becomes saturated with Orks or you just play one opponent I think your list is bad overall, I think by taking some anti-vehicle to deal with a variety of list you will be losing a neglible amount of chance of winning against horde lists compared to the much larger chance you'll have against most other lists. I don't think building to counter a specific opponent makes sense, you want to counter the meta you're playing in.
Thats twice you've outright ignored the fact I'm suggesting you take a Seraptek to deal with that stuff.
I'm not building to counter my meta, as I dont think Orks will evercome into out meta as it's still dominated by Pay-To-Win Eldar, but I am answering the question that originally arose: "What could we do vs Orks?" My answer was Mephrit Gunline.
i am also not suggesting that you don't take anything else, only that our infantry are more than capable of dealing with an oncoming horde. but lets be fair, out anti vehicle or anti monster options are pretty much limited to Destroyers or a DDA, so most lists will include them anyway. you could easily drop the Deathmarks and a scarab unit, and pick up two units of Destroyers instead, then move all the FA to an Outrider, possibly Nephrekh, with Szeras as that detachment's HQ, because he can still be Warlord with no loss in functionality.
I was just enquiring about the validity of this aproach to answer the latest FoTM, which has been thus far completely overlooked. I recognise I'm not going to be winnign tourements any time soon, but I dont think we're going to be in contention for that as an army any time soom, at least cetainly not until CA drops
Draco765 wrote: It is interesting that they did not keep the FNP effect on Necrons, yet many armies now have it outside of the Death Guard. Even Orks now have the Snakebites Clan Kultur that also included their vehicles.
It's the 5+ FNP specifically that is the Death Guard special ability, everyone else has a 6+. The real problem is that naturally resilient armies don't get much of anything to improve their resilience out of codex bonuses while naturally squishy armies do.
Draco765 wrote: It is interesting that they did not keep the FNP effect on Necrons, yet many armies now have it outside of the Death Guard. Even Orks now have the Snakebites Clan Kultur that also included their vehicles.
Yeah, as cool as RP is, GW grossly misjudged how effective RP would be as a defensive trait. It's too unreliable to build a list around. The old FNP was at least guaranteed to have some throughput.
sieGermans wrote: But 8th RP is far better from a fluff perspective.
Yeah, I'm with you there. I feel making it a guaranteed roll when the model loses it's last wound (similar to Kill Team) would go a long way in helping Necrons this edition.
sieGermans wrote: But 8th RP is far better from a fluff perspective.
Yeah, I'm with you there. I feel making it a guaranteed roll when the model loses it's last wound (similar to Kill Team) would go a long way in helping Necrons this edition.
This would make it pretty much impossible to kill an entire unit of 20 warriors, when you would roll for every model right after it loses its last wound. With a cryptek nearby 5 out of 10 slain models would rise again.
sieGermans wrote: But 8th RP is far better from a fluff perspective.
Yeah, I'm with you there. I feel making it a guaranteed roll when the model loses it's last wound (similar to Kill Team) would go a long way in helping Necrons this edition.
This would make it pretty much impossible to kill an entire unit of 20 warriors, when you would roll for every model right after it loses its last wound. With a cryptek nearby 5 out of 10 slain models would rise again.
Agreed. I didn't mean to use it exactly as worded under the current ruleset, as that would be quite strong. The whole idea was just to have some throughput of our special trait.
sieGermans wrote: But 8th RP is far better from a fluff perspective.
Yeah, I'm with you there. I feel making it a guaranteed roll when the model loses it's last wound (similar to Kill Team) would go a long way in helping Necrons this edition.
This would make it pretty much impossible to kill an entire unit of 20 warriors, when you would roll for every model right after it loses its last wound. With a cryptek nearby 5 out of 10 slain models would rise again.
You could perhaps make it so that any models that are not recovered this way, are permanently slain, and maybe the unit only gets this Death save once per game (Not RP, just once per game if wiped out). (Could make a CP ability to use it again)
It's a great fluff mechanic, but it's very hard to balance well. It's either too weak, or too strong. Right now we are seeing the effect overestimated by the devs, and the points costs for our units is way to high due to it.
I would love to see a return of ever-living for our characters though. That was a fantastic mechanic, and very fluffy for our characters in the past.
On to the topic of hand, is everyone still pretty down on our new Walker?
On to the topic of hand, is everyone still pretty down on our new Walker?
I cant talk for everyone, but i am. Really disappointed. A unit with 3+/5++ for 625 pts. is ridiculous. Its offensive power is good, but its defense is weak, even if you play it as nihilakh and use reclaim a lost empire. This thing should have 4++ out of the box. If you dont get first turn this monster could be seriously crippled, or even killed before you get any real use out of it. Right now its not worth more than 500 pts. If we get good point reductions in CA 2018 it maybe become viable for me.
Uh ya know that you can email FW for recommendations on how to fix it instead of endlessly complaining. I'd say you can cut the points to a cool 550 myself. It looks and feels like a glass cannon so I'm not expecting a lot of durability. A Knight WILL almost die if it charges though, so that's nice.
I am ok with it. This is how this massive units should be. Scary as feth in combat but not unkillable in return or else we get more bs Knight like units that make the game seem like only a one player game. If CA brings Lords of war into a more balanced across the board costs we could see it in play which would be sweet because I like the look of them.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Uh ya know that you can email FW for recommendations on how to fix it instead of endlessly complaining. I'd say you can cut the points to a cool 550 myself. It looks and feels like a glass cannon so I'm not expecting a lot of durability. A Knight WILL almost die if it charges though, so that's nice.
I already emailed them that they should change the singularity generators damage from D6 to 2D3, or something similar less random, before the model was released. I also posted here that everyone should do so. Did they listen ? No, they dont. Why should i bother emailing them again ? A knight with 4++ (in CC), or 2+, and 6+ FNP will certainly not almost die if it gets charged by this thing.
On to the topic of hand, is everyone still pretty down on our new Walker?
I cant talk for everyone, but i am. Really disappointed. A unit with 3+/5++ for 625 pts. is ridiculous. Its offensive power is good, but its defense is weak, even if you play it as nihilakh and use reclaim a lost empire. This thing should have 4++ out of the box. If you dont get first turn this monster could be seriously crippled, or even killed before you get any real use out of it. Right now its not worth more than 500 pts. If we get good point reductions in CA 2018 it maybe become viable for me.
I think it’s great and super well costed, point-wise. At 625 it’s reasonably costed for most play. I plan to buy one.
For competitive it’s waaaay too fairly costed to be dominating—and therefore unplayable.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Uh ya know that you can email FW for recommendations on how to fix it instead of endlessly complaining. I'd say you can cut the points to a cool 550 myself. It looks and feels like a glass cannon so I'm not expecting a lot of durability. A Knight WILL almost die if it charges though, so that's nice.
I already emailed them that they should change the singularity generators damage from D6 to 2D3, or something similar less random, before the model was released. I also posted here that everyone should do so. Did they listen ? No, they dont. Why should i bother emailing them again ? A knight with 4++ (in CC), or 2+, and 6+ FNP will certainly not almost die if it gets charged by this thing.
Knights can have inv in melee? :O
For the rest I would agree...as much as I like this model its too expensive for its defense...plus this „killing a knight in melee“ is only true in a vacuum...therell be tons of guardsmen in front of the knight...good luck trying to place this thing with its „imaginary“ base and not get into arguments
Yes, a knight can have 5++ in melee and ranged combat with the relic sanctuary. With rotate ion shields its +1. And yes, you can use rotate ion shields in CC. Not to mention FW knights which already have 5++ in melee without a relic.
Sasori wrote: I would love to see a return of ever-living for our characters though. That was a fantastic mechanic, and very fluffy for our characters in the past.
On to the topic of hand, is everyone still pretty down on our new Walker?
Resurrection Protocols Stratagem?
It seems most people are negative, but there are a few optimists. I won't do any further discussion until I get in more games, which will happen in a week or two.
I won a Maelstrom game with my double Vault list against Deathwatch. So far I've played it as Sautekh, this time I played it as Nihilakh. Nihilakh felt less powerful because sometimes I just had to move my DDAs, my Immortals always had to move and while the Stratagem made one of my Vaults be ignored after losing a third of its wounds, I think my opponent would have ignored it regardless because of the objectives he had to do. The Sautekh WL trait is so much better than Thrall of the Silent King that it isn't even a contest. The lack of access to the Sautekh Staff relic didn't really matter so I think I might stop bringing it in the future. I lost two DDAs and a squad of Immortals. My opponent surrendered at the end of his turn 4 with two Leviathan Dreadnoughts on their last legs, a Terminator Librarian and a Watchmaster, most of which probably would not survive the next turn, I probably would have lost one of my Vaults and tabled him had the game continued but I was really far ahead on objectives as well as board presence so he gave up.
Do we know anything about the upcoming CA and the changes to Necron Rules or Point Costs?
Many of our units are in dire need of Upgrades rules/statwise (looking at you Monolith and Annihilation Barge) or a point cost decrease (Lychguard / Immortals).
Seraptek Heavy Construct [wo Synaptic Obliterators and Two Transdimensional Projectors
List 2 (Choppy)
Spoiler:
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Necrons) ++
+ HQ +
Cryptek Canoptek Cloak, Staff of Light
Overlord Artefact: The Veil of Darkness, Voidblade, Warlord
+ Troops +
Immortals 10x Immortal, Tesla Carbine
Immortals 10x Immortal, Tesla Carbine
Necron Warriors 10x Necron Warrior
+ Fast Attack +
Canoptek Scarabs 6x Canoptek Scarab Swarm
Canoptek Wraiths 6x Canoptek Wraith
Canoptek Wraiths 6x Canoptek Wraith
++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Necrons) ++
+ Lord of War +
Seraptek Heavy Construct [32 PL, 625pts]: Two Synaptic Obliterators and Two Transdimensional Projectors
I don't plan to run the construct, but if I did, I would bring the stalker as well. As bad as the stalker is, RR 1s seems like it would be a must for a 625 point unit that hits on 3s
I get the sentiment certainly, but I really can't justify the points price tag on the thing. That, and whenever i bring it, its got a giant target painted on it for some reason.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Uh ya know that you can email FW for recommendations on how to fix it instead of endlessly complaining. I'd say you can cut the points to a cool 550 myself. It looks and feels like a glass cannon so I'm not expecting a lot of durability. A Knight WILL almost die if it charges though, so that's nice.
I already emailed them that they should change the singularity generators damage from D6 to 2D3, or something similar less random, before the model was released. I also posted here that everyone should do so. Did they listen ? No, they dont. Why should i bother emailing them again ? A knight with 4++ (in CC), or 2+, and 6+ FNP will certainly not almost die if it gets charged by this thing.
You told them to change the model before it was even released and they didn't listen to you, seeing as nobody else for the most part would've emailed them compared to when the model is out and people can actually have played it? Color me shocked as all hell.
I get the sentiment certainly, but I really can't justify the points price tag on the thing. That, and whenever i bring it, its got a giant target painted on it for some reason.
Hmm, have you thought about Sautekh dynasty for Methodical Destruction?
Yeah, one email isn't going to do it. You need to have a lot more people on board before they'll listen.
Its why I'm telling people to get on FB to complain about the missing Big Mek. If enough people civilly tells them their wrong, they might do something about it.
I get the sentiment certainly, but I really can't justify the points price tag on the thing. That, and whenever i bring it, its got a giant target painted on it for some reason.
Hmm, have you thought about Sautekh dynasty for Methodical Destruction?
Hrm. I've actually yet to use that dynasty/strategem ...but it might not be a bad idea...just gotta land a wound on something first, then finish it off with the big guns of the construct.
I get the sentiment certainly, but I really can't justify the points price tag on the thing. That, and whenever i bring it, its got a giant target painted on it for some reason.
Hmm, have you thought about Sautekh dynasty for Methodical Destruction?
Hrm. I've actually yet to use that dynasty/strategem ...but it might not be a bad idea...just gotta land a wound on something first, then finish it off with the big guns of the construct.
Hrmmmm....
Yeah, I would consider that dynasty or the Nihilakh for RR 1s when standing still and the +1 to save stratagem. It's a shame it's only when standing still, because you have to waste that awesome melee profile to get those perks.
I get the sentiment certainly, but I really can't justify the points price tag on the thing. That, and whenever i bring it, its got a giant target painted on it for some reason.
Hmm, have you thought about Sautekh dynasty for Methodical Destruction?
Pretty useless if your giant spyder is destroyed in the first turn. You cant protect it with prepared positions and you cant use reclaim a lost empire, because its sautekh, and its played at the end of your turn.
Yeah, I would consider that dynasty or the Nihilakh for RR 1s when standing still and the +1 to save stratagem. It's a shame it's only when standing still, because you have to waste that awesome melee profile to get those perks.
Reclaim a lost empire is not only when standing still.
I get the sentiment certainly, but I really can't justify the points price tag on the thing. That, and whenever i bring it, its got a giant target painted on it for some reason.
Hmm, have you thought about Sautekh dynasty for Methodical Destruction?
Pretty useless if your giant spyder is destroyed in the first turn. You cant protect it with prepared positions and you cant use reclaim a lost empire, because its sautekh, and its played at the end of your turn.
Yeah, I would consider that dynasty or the Nihilakh for RR 1s when standing still and the +1 to save stratagem. It's a shame it's only when standing still, because you have to waste that awesome melee profile to get those perks.
Reclaim a lost empire is not only when standing still.
Anything is pretty useless if destroyed in the first turn... I'm not saying the unit is good, I'm giving suggestions.
Our +1 to save isn't as clutch or easy to use as rotate ion shields. End of turn AND standing still or be near an objective. Unless you can reliably get first turn and be near an objective, I wouldn't say it's the go to dynasty.
I get the sentiment certainly, but I really can't justify the points price tag on the thing. That, and whenever i bring it, its got a giant target painted on it for some reason.
Hmm, have you thought about Sautekh dynasty for Methodical Destruction?
Hrm. I've actually yet to use that dynasty/strategem ...but it might not be a bad idea...just gotta land a wound on something first, then finish it off with the big guns of the construct.
Hrmmmm....
Yeah, I would consider that dynasty or the Nihilakh for RR 1s when standing still and the +1 to save stratagem. It's a shame it's only when standing still, because you have to waste that awesome melee profile to get those perks.
Yeah, if you're smart about objective placement you can just drop the Construct near an objective and move to it.
I get the sentiment certainly, but I really can't justify the points price tag on the thing. That, and whenever i bring it, its got a giant target painted on it for some reason.
Hmm, have you thought about Sautekh dynasty for Methodical Destruction?
Seems like I would want to try:
Stormlord + 3×3 Heavy Destroyers
Sautekh or Novokh or Nihilakh Sereptek
Battalion of Nephrekh Immortals and Wraiths
Just throwing out ideas of course. I like my Sautekh Spearhead. Just 1CP and you get THREE MWBD Heavy Destroyers. Shame Knights exist and all that.
I get the sentiment certainly, but I really can't justify the points price tag on the thing. That, and whenever i bring it, its got a giant target painted on it for some reason.
Hmm, have you thought about Sautekh dynasty for Methodical Destruction?
Seems like I would want to try:
Stormlord + 3×3 Heavy Destroyers
Sautekh or Novokh or Nihilakh Sereptek
Battalion of Nephrekh Immortals and Wraiths
Just throwing out ideas of course. I like my Sautekh Spearhead. Just 1CP and you get THREE MWBD Heavy Destroyers. Shame Knights exist and all that.
Novokh Sereptek would be pretty nasty with the Blood Rites fight again strategem.
EDIT: Could put it next to a Crimson Haze warlord. 18 attacks with the D3 dmg profile, 6s proc an additional hit roll using the same weapon (could switch to the flat 6 dmg profile for these additional hit rolls)
I get the sentiment certainly, but I really can't justify the points price tag on the thing. That, and whenever i bring it, its got a giant target painted on it for some reason.
Hmm, have you thought about Sautekh dynasty for Methodical Destruction?
Seems like I would want to try:
Stormlord + 3×3 Heavy Destroyers
Sautekh or Novokh or Nihilakh Sereptek
Battalion of Nephrekh Immortals and Wraiths
Just throwing out ideas of course. I like my Sautekh Spearhead. Just 1CP and you get THREE MWBD Heavy Destroyers. Shame Knights exist and all that.
Novokh Sereptek would be pretty nasty with the Blood Rites fight again strategem.
EDIT: Could put it next to a Crimson Haze warlord. 18 attacks with the D3 dmg profile, 6s proc an additional hit roll using the same weapon (could switch to the flat 6 dmg profile for these additional hit rolls)
You could also do Nephrekh as your trait if you wanted to run it with Kutlakh and treated his Dynasty as that trait. You'd get the auto 6" advance and he would let you charge afterwards. That requires a lot of building around though, and with his current price tag it isn't terribly worth it. Fun idea otherwise I guess.
I get the sentiment certainly, but I really can't justify the points price tag on the thing. That, and whenever i bring it, its got a giant target painted on it for some reason.
Hmm, have you thought about Sautekh dynasty for Methodical Destruction?
Seems like I would want to try:
Stormlord + 3×3 Heavy Destroyers
Sautekh or Novokh or Nihilakh Sereptek
Battalion of Nephrekh Immortals and Wraiths
Just throwing out ideas of course. I like my Sautekh Spearhead. Just 1CP and you get THREE MWBD Heavy Destroyers. Shame Knights exist and all that.
Novokh Sereptek would be pretty nasty with the Blood Rites fight again strategem.
EDIT: Could put it next to a Crimson Haze warlord. 18 attacks with the D3 dmg profile, 6s proc an additional hit roll using the same weapon (could switch to the flat 6 dmg profile for these additional hit rolls)
You can switch profile for those other attacks... that's pretty nifty.
I get the sentiment certainly, but I really can't justify the points price tag on the thing. That, and whenever i bring it, its got a giant target painted on it for some reason.
Hmm, have you thought about Sautekh dynasty for Methodical Destruction?
Seems like I would want to try:
Stormlord + 3×3 Heavy Destroyers
Sautekh or Novokh or Nihilakh Sereptek
Battalion of Nephrekh Immortals and Wraiths
Just throwing out ideas of course. I like my Sautekh Spearhead. Just 1CP and you get THREE MWBD Heavy Destroyers. Shame Knights exist and all that.
Novokh Sereptek would be pretty nasty with the Blood Rites fight again strategem.
EDIT: Could put it next to a Crimson Haze warlord. 18 attacks with the D3 dmg profile, 6s proc an additional hit roll using the same weapon (could switch to the flat 6 dmg profile for these additional hit rolls)
You could also do Nephrekh as your trait if you wanted to run it with Kutlakh and treated his Dynasty as that trait. You'd get the auto 6" advance and he would let you charge afterwards. That requires a lot of building around though, and with his current price tag it isn't terribly worth it. Fun idea otherwise I guess.
It has two 2 Gun loadouts:
one of which has 2x Hd3 Dmg6 cannons, plus sidearms
the other of which has 2x H3d3 Dmgd6
It also has CC weapons that do
6 attacks at S16 Dmg6
or 18 attacks at S8 Dmgd3
it's roles are:
- sit and shoot, which it does very well, good with Nihilahk Dynasty shenanigans for extra shooting and protective strats.
or
- Run up the table and mince things in combat. the secondary guns arent awful, and Novokh makes this thing Eat pretty much Anything in one turn.
he's a little overpriced, but arent we all...
note, if he goes boom, he goes fekkin BOOM, so if you wanna sit and shoot, a Spyder and a CloakTek are mandatory, else he'll nuke half your army when he pops.
however, charging a titan into the midle of your enemy army while he smashes stuff up is extremely good fun, and honestly reminds me of a "Nerf This", if you play overwatch you will know exactly how to use it.
Turn 1 preferable, as our entire codex feels, but other than that, pretty damn good
In case you don't realise I'm on of the few people who actually really like this thing
It has two 2 Gun loadouts:
one of which has 2x Hd3 Dmg6 cannons, plus sidearms
the other of which has 2x H3d3 Dmgd6
It also has CC weapons that do
6 attacks at S16 Dmg6
or 18 attacks at S8 Dmgd3
it's roles are:
- sit and shoot, which it does very well, good with Nihilahk Dynasty shenanigans for extra shooting and protective strats.
or
- Run up the table and mince things in combat. the secondary guns arent awful, and Novokh makes this thing Eat pretty much Anything in one turn.
he's a little overpriced, but arent we all...
note, if he goes boom, he goes fekkin BOOM, so if you wanna sit and shoot, a Spyder and a CloakTek are mandatory, else he'll nuke half your army when he pops.
however, charging a titan into the midle of your enemy army while he smashes stuff up is extremely good fun, and honestly reminds me of a "Nerf This", if you play overwatch you will know exactly how to use it.
Turn 1 preferable, as our entire codex feels, but other than that, pretty damn good
In case you don't realise I'm on of the few people who actually really like this thing
If something decides to kill this thing, I suspect a few trickle wounds of healing isn't going to make a difference not in terms of preventing an explosion. It unlikely doesn't justify the pricetag of a babysitting spyder and cryptek. If he is dropping this thing 14 wounds a turn to cause an explosion in turn 2, then at best you could delay it till turn 3, at which point he likely still is exploding in your midst, unless that extra turn is what you plan to use to get him away
Automatically Appended Next Post: Note: I also like it! Have it inbound.
IHateNids wrote: I'm just stating it helps to regain 2d3 wounds per turn, instead of 1
Problem is you can't regain 2d3 wounds. Only 1d3. Because either spider or cloaktek makes it regain 1d3, and so the other model cant use its regain wounds ability because it requires living metal 1, but its 1d3.
IHateNids wrote: I'm just stating it helps to regain 2d3 wounds per turn, instead of 1
Problem is you can't regain 2d3 wounds. Only 1d3+1. Because either spider or cloaktek makes it regain 1d3, and so the other model cant use its regain wounds ability because it requires living metal 1, but its 1d3.
The cloaktek replaces the 1 from Living Metal with 1d3, which happened at the beginning of your turn.
The Spyder heals it for 1d3 in the movement phase, it's totally different from Living Metal.
Blndmage wrote:The cloaktek replaces the 1 from Living Metal with 1d3, which happened at the beginning of your turn.
The Spyder heals it for 1d3 in the movement phase, it's totally different from Living Metal.
Heavy supp:
5x Mek gun /w Traktor kannon
Bonebreaka battlewagon (meganobz went in here)
Battlewagon /w deffrolla (tankbusta and KKF mek went in here)
Gorkanaut
I deployed everything close to eachother, the Scarabs up front followed by the Warrior blobs.
The orks deployed as close to the front as possible, the Gorkanaut went in the Tellyporta.
Orks, turn 1:
Everything, and i mean EVERYTHING advanced forward (ok, not the mek gunz) and BOY are Evil Sunz fast!
The battlewagons and bikerbosses went as close to my line as possible. Trukk went after them, but stayed midfield to control an objective.
Bikes went to a flank to claim an objective.
Weirdboy (now a Warphead) gave the Boyz+1 attack and Da Jumped them to a flank.
Ork shooting took out the Scarab screen. Tankbustas did 6 wounds to a DDA (with More Dakka, but the QS stratagem really did its job).
The Mek Gunz did absolutely nothing vs the wounded DDA.. 3 of them failed to wound, and the 2D6 take the highest was terrible vs QS.
At this point I thought: ‘alright, I got one turn of shooting before he can charge me’’. Uuuuntil i realised the Trike gave all those battlewagons advance and charge!!
So yea, all the Warriors were locked in combat.
Boyz charged another Warrior Blob, +1 to charge and re-roll any dice was very useful here.
Warboss on bike failed his charge on the Destroyers, that was pretty important.
Bonebreaka charged the Stalker.
We tried to simulate the Boyz on 32” bases, so not all of them got to fight. Still managed to get 100 attacks, which killed 19! Warriors. This many casualties meant the Battlewagon couldn’t finish them off.
The Bonebreaka did 5 wounds to the Stalker. My opponent wanted to save CP, but Boarding Action could have finished it off.
Necrons, turn 1:
The lone warrior was thankfully no longer locked in combat due to the large amount of casualties, and 9 of his buddies reanimated.
Warriors stayed put, one blob had to fall back. Immortals shuffled a bit towards the flank with the boyz, everything else stayed put. C’tan moved towards the Warboss on bike.
Overlord gave the Immortals MWBD, Szeras upgraded the freshly reanimated Warriors to T5.
Then came the Necron shooting... wauw what a retaliation.
First off... 10 Immortals with MWBD and AP-1 thanks to Mephrit killed all 30 boyz!!
One DDA against the Bonebreaka rolled a 6 on his shots! Followed by 5 1’s on his to hit roll..... Still, that one wound did 6 dmg, so it was a rollercoaster of emotions with that thing!
Other DDA finished the Bonebreaka, the Meganobz jumped out.
The small Warrior blob and the Gauss Flayers from the DDA killed the Trike.
Destroyers did 8 wounds to the Battlewagon, KFF absolutely saved it’s skin there.
And finally, C’tan charged the Warboss on bike and absolutely slaughtered him. My Opponent could have made the Boss fight upon death, but the 3++ made him decide against it.
Orks, turn 2.
Tankbustas stayed put, the battlewagon they were in shuffled foward.
Shoots in the trukk jumped out and moved up, trukk stayed behind for the objective.
Meganobz moved foward towards the Destroyers.
Bikers went after the Triach Stalker.
Gorkanaut teleported in on the same flank the Boyz used to be.
Weirdboy tried to Da Jump himself, but the power got denied by Szeras. He then gave the shoota boyz +1A.
The Gorkanaut and the Mek Gunz killed 3 destroyers.
Dakka from the Meganobz, bikes and shoota boyz killed 8 Warriors from the biggest blob.
Tankbustas were now within 6”, so my opponent decided to combo More Dakka with Extra Stikkbombs.
He did a total of 9 wounds to the DDA, leaving it at one wound. Again, Improved QS was amazing.
We simulated the same attack vs a Casstellan Knight with 3++, just to see what it did. The Tankbustas would have done 16 wounds to a Knight, not too shabby.
Gorkanaut charged the Immortals.
Meganobz charged the Destroyers.
Bikes the Stalker.
And shoota boyz the previously shot necron blob.
Gorkanaut killed 8 Immortals, a bit dissapointing considering it had 18 attacks.
Meganobz killed 2 Destroyers, and my opponent let an audible groans as he knew that all those Destoyers could now be reanimated >.
Despite being 12 shoota boyz, they were suprisingly effective in melee thanks to Warpath. They finished of a Warrior blob.
Bikers brought the Stalker down to 1 wound.
Necrons, turn 2.
Bah, the Reanimations went very poor this turn. 10 man Warrior blob only got 2 back, and out of the 5 destroyers only 1 managed to get back up.
The immortals faired a bit better, getting 5 out of the 8 casualties back.
The warrior blob stayed put, since they were gonna teleport out with the Veil so that they could still shoot. Immortals stayed put, since the Meganobz were right in front of them.
Destroyers fell back to shoot at the Meganobz.
C’tan moved up to claim the mid-field objective.
With the Stalker and one DDA having to fall back (and the other DDA being dead) my anti-tank was as good as gone. Though there was still a Battlewagon and a Gorkanaut right up in my face!
This left the infantry. Combined fire from the Destroyers and the immortals killed 2 Meganobz. In cover these bastards are quite tough!
The Veil’d Warriors finished the 12 Shoota boyz.
And in a last desperate move, Szeras and the Immortals charged the Meganobz. Bad idea; the Meganobz took 0 dmg and snipped Szeras in half like a piece of paper.
At this point I unfortunately had to go due to time, but the game was over anyway. The next ork turn the Destroyers, Immortals, Stalker and DDA would have all died, leaving the C’tan, Warriors and Overlord to be cleaned up the turn thereafter.
Post-game Thoughts:
Orks are definitely not a joke anymore. Almost all units my oppponent threw at me were of equal threat due to their speed. The two battlewagons, the Gorkanaut, the 30 unit.... it was very difficult for me to prioritize the biggest target.
Though Mephrit small-arms cut through the ork infantry like a hit knife through butter, their vehicles are tough as nails. Though with the Stalker being locked in combat from turn 1, not all my anti-tank got to shoot.
Still, I definitely expected both Battlewagons to fall in my first turn, but between a KFF and one battlewagon being T8, I underestimated their survivability!
It’s a shame the Warboss /w the Killy Klaw failed his charge, he really would have done a number on the Destroyers.
The Dakka Dakka rule overal felt.... ok. It gave. A bit more oompf to the overal Ork shooting, but I believe it still remains a close-combate orientated army.
All in all it was a very fun match and I look forward to battle the Greenskins again!
IHateNids wrote: Oh, the babysitters cost a lot, but if you're building a firebase, you'll have them anyway
I was under the impression no one took spyders because they are never worth it. I feel a cryptek is better used bringing infantry back...
Hopefully when CA drops spyders base cost will drop a lot, but in reality large units need to gain more than d3 from a single Spyder for it to be worth while.
Heavy supp:
5x Mek gun /w Traktor kannon
Bonebreaka battlewagon (meganobz went in here)
Battlewagon /w deffrolla (tankbusta and KKF mek went in here)
Gorkanaut
I deployed everything close to eachother, the Scarabs up front followed by the Warrior blobs.
The orks deployed as close to the front as possible, the Gorkanaut went in the Tellyporta.
Orks, turn 1:
Everything, and i mean EVERYTHING advanced forward (ok, not the mek gunz) and BOY are Evil Sunz fast!
The battlewagons and bikerbosses went as close to my line as possible. Trukk went after them, but stayed midfield to control an objective.
Bikes went to a flank to claim an objective.
Weirdboy (now a Warphead) gave the Boyz+1 attack and Da Jumped them to a flank.
Ork shooting took out the Scarab screen. Tankbustas did 6 wounds to a DDA (with More Dakka, but the QS stratagem really did its job).
The Mek Gunz did absolutely nothing vs the wounded DDA.. 3 of them failed to wound, and the 2D6 take the highest was terrible vs QS.
At this point I thought: ‘alright, I got one turn of shooting before he can charge me’’. Uuuuntil i realised the Trike gave all those battlewagons advance and charge!!
So yea, all the Warriors were locked in combat.
Boyz charged another Warrior Blob, +1 to charge and re-roll any dice was very useful here.
Warboss on bike failed his charge on the Destroyers, that was pretty important.
Bonebreaka charged the Stalker.
We tried to simulate the Boyz on 32” bases, so not all of them got to fight. Still managed to get 100 attacks, which killed 19! Warriors. This many casualties meant the Battlewagon couldn’t finish them off.
The Bonebreaka did 5 wounds to the Stalker. My opponent wanted to save CP, but Boarding Action could have finished it off.
Necrons, turn 1:
The lone warrior was thankfully no longer locked in combat due to the large amount of casualties, and 9 of his buddies reanimated.
Warriors stayed put, one blob had to fall back. Immortals shuffled a bit towards the flank with the boyz, everything else stayed put. C’tan moved towards the Warboss on bike.
Overlord gave the Immortals MWBD, Szeras upgraded the freshly reanimated Warriors to T5.
Then came the Necron shooting... wauw what a retaliation.
First off... 10 Immortals with MWBD and AP-1 thanks to Mephrit killed all 30 boyz!!
One DDA against the Bonebreaka rolled a 6 on his shots! Followed by 5 1’s on his to hit roll..... Still, that one wound did 6 dmg, so it was a rollercoaster of emotions with that thing!
Other DDA finished the Bonebreaka, the Meganobz jumped out.
The small Warrior blob and the Gauss Flayers from the DDA killed the Trike.
Destroyers did 8 wounds to the Battlewagon, KFF absolutely saved it’s skin there.
And finally, C’tan charged the Warboss on bike and absolutely slaughtered him. My Opponent could have made the Boss fight upon death, but the 3++ made him decide against it.
Orks, turn 2.
Tankbustas stayed put, the battlewagon they were in shuffled foward.
Shoots in the trukk jumped out and moved up, trukk stayed behind for the objective.
Meganobz moved foward towards the Destroyers.
Bikers went after the Triach Stalker.
Gorkanaut teleported in on the same flank the Boyz used to be.
Weirdboy tried to Da Jump himself, but the power got denied by Szeras. He then gave the shoota boyz +1A.
The Gorkanaut and the Mek Gunz killed 3 destroyers.
Dakka from the Meganobz, bikes and shoota boyz killed 8 Warriors from the biggest blob.
Tankbustas were now within 6”, so my opponent decided to combo More Dakka with Extra Stikkbombs.
He did a total of 9 wounds to the DDA, leaving it at one wound. Again, Improved QS was amazing.
We simulated the same attack vs a Casstellan Knight with 3++, just to see what it did. The Tankbustas would have done 16 wounds to a Knight, not too shabby.
Gorkanaut charged the Immortals.
Meganobz charged the Destroyers.
Bikes the Stalker.
And shoota boyz the previously shot necron blob.
Gorkanaut killed 8 Immortals, a bit dissapointing considering it had 18 attacks.
Meganobz killed 2 Destroyers, and my opponent let an audible groans as he knew that all those Destoyers could now be reanimated >.
Despite being 12 shoota boyz, they were suprisingly effective in melee thanks to Warpath. They finished of a Warrior blob.
Bikers brought the Stalker down to 1 wound.
Necrons, turn 2.
Bah, the Reanimations went very poor this turn. 10 man Warrior blob only got 2 back, and out of the 5 destroyers only 1 managed to get back up.
The immortals faired a bit better, getting 5 out of the 8 casualties back.
The warrior blob stayed put, since they were gonna teleport out with the Veil so that they could still shoot. Immortals stayed put, since the Meganobz were right in front of them.
Destroyers fell back to shoot at the Meganobz.
C’tan moved up to claim the mid-field objective.
With the Stalker and one DDA having to fall back (and the other DDA being dead) my anti-tank was as good as gone. Though there was still a Battlewagon and a Gorkanaut right up in my face!
This left the infantry. Combined fire from the Destroyers and the immortals killed 2 Meganobz. In cover these bastards are quite tough!
The Veil’d Warriors finished the 12 Shoota boyz.
And in a last desperate move, Szeras and the Immortals charged the Meganobz. Bad idea; the Meganobz took 0 dmg and snipped Szeras in half like a piece of paper.
At this point I unfortunately had to go due to time, but the game was over anyway. The next ork turn the Destroyers, Immortals, Stalker and DDA would have all died, leaving the C’tan, Warriors and Overlord to be cleaned up the turn thereafter.
Post-game Thoughts:
Orks are definitely not a joke anymore. Almost all units my oppponent threw at me were of equal threat due to their speed. The two battlewagons, the Gorkanaut, the 30 unit.... it was very difficult for me to prioritize the biggest target.
Though Mephrit small-arms cut through the ork infantry like a hit knife through butter, their vehicles are tough as nails. Though with the Stalker being locked in combat from turn 1, not all my anti-tank got to shoot.
Still, I definitely expected both Battlewagons to fall in my first turn, but between a KFF and one battlewagon being T8, I underestimated their survivability!
It’s a shame the Warboss /w the Killy Klaw failed his charge, he really would have done a number on the Destroyers.
The Dakka Dakka rule overal felt.... ok. It gave. A bit more oompf to the overal Ork shooting, but I believe it still remains a close-combate orientated army.
All in all it was a very fun match and I look forward to battle the Greenskins again!
Great batrep! I have no Ork players in my local meta but they strike me as an interesting matchup that I'd like to play.
One thing; you didn't really mention your C'Tan powers, which did you choose and were they effective at all?
I get the sentiment certainly, but I really can't justify the points price tag on the thing. That, and whenever i bring it, its got a giant target painted on it for some reason.
Hmm, have you thought about Sautekh dynasty for Methodical Destruction?
Seems like I would want to try:
Stormlord + 3×3 Heavy Destroyers
Sautekh or Novokh or Nihilakh Sereptek
Battalion of Nephrekh Immortals and Wraiths
Just throwing out ideas of course. I like my Sautekh Spearhead. Just 1CP and you get THREE MWBD Heavy Destroyers. Shame Knights exist and all that.
Novokh Sereptek would be pretty nasty with the Blood Rites fight again strategem.
EDIT: Could put it next to a Crimson Haze warlord. 18 attacks with the D3 dmg profile, 6s proc an additional hit roll using the same weapon (could switch to the flat 6 dmg profile for these additional hit rolls)
You could also do Nephrekh as your trait if you wanted to run it with Kutlakh and treated his Dynasty as that trait. You'd get the auto 6" advance and he would let you charge afterwards. That requires a lot of building around though, and with his current price tag it isn't terribly worth it. Fun idea otherwise I guess.
Ah I didn't notice it was Infantry, that's pretty neat, so it also gets +1 attack from Anrakyr the Traveller.
It doesn't get a Dynasty Trait in a Super-heavy Auxiliary. You have to either spam characters or more likely run it with a couple of Vaults. How much is the re-roll failed hits in the first round of CC worth? It's hard to say, but maybe you should just say feth and run it as an auxiliary.
I'm finding that running it in a supreme command detatchment is really, really expensive (getting close to 1k points because our HQs are stupidly expensive.
Thinking the aux detatchment is a better idea, You still need tools to support the thing.
I get the sentiment certainly, but I really can't justify the points price tag on the thing. That, and whenever i bring it, its got a giant target painted on it for some reason.
Hmm, have you thought about Sautekh dynasty for Methodical Destruction?
Seems like I would want to try:
Stormlord + 3×3 Heavy Destroyers
Sautekh or Novokh or Nihilakh Sereptek
Battalion of Nephrekh Immortals and Wraiths
Just throwing out ideas of course. I like my Sautekh Spearhead. Just 1CP and you get THREE MWBD Heavy Destroyers. Shame Knights exist and all that.
Novokh Sereptek would be pretty nasty with the Blood Rites fight again strategem.
EDIT: Could put it next to a Crimson Haze warlord. 18 attacks with the D3 dmg profile, 6s proc an additional hit roll using the same weapon (could switch to the flat 6 dmg profile for these additional hit rolls)
You could also do Nephrekh as your trait if you wanted to run it with Kutlakh and treated his Dynasty as that trait. You'd get the auto 6" advance and he would let you charge afterwards. That requires a lot of building around though, and with his current price tag it isn't terribly worth it. Fun idea otherwise I guess.
Ah I didn't notice it was Infantry, that's pretty neat, so it also gets +1 attack from Anrakyr the Traveller.
It doesn't get a Dynasty Trait in a Super-heavy Auxiliary. You have to either spam characters or more likely run it with a couple of Vaults. How much is the re-roll failed hits in the first round of CC worth? It's hard to say, but maybe you should just say feth and run it as an auxiliary.
Hmm yeah, also looks like the Seraptek heavy construct also ignores heavy moving penalty to hit and can move/fire so no need to go Sautekh for the dynasty unless you're focused on being thematic/singular dynasty. **chuckle**
Can also duck out of combat, fire and then charge back in? Dang....
Dynasty grading for him (imo)
Spoiler:
So im guessing tactically you'd probably want to run Novkh primarily with your ability to pull out and ram him right back into melee after shooting.
Second choice for me would probably be Nephrekh, if only so you can now ignore all models/terrain and put yourself in hilarious positions far easier.
Third would be mephrit cause with decent ranges it'll probably be relevant though maybe not overly needed.
Nihilakh Seems like a waste of this guys mobility and awesome fun explosion so it'd be last choice for me and only for situations..
Sautekh Pointless.
Lothmar wrote: Hmm yeah, also looks like the Seraptek heavy construct also ignores heavy moving penalty to hit and can move/fire so no need to go Sautekh for the dynasty unless you're focused on being thematic/singular dynasty. **chuckle**
Can also duck out of combat, fire and then charge back in? Dang....
Dynasty grading for him (imo)
Spoiler:
So im guessing tactically you'd probably want to run Novkh primarily with your ability to pull out and ram him right back into melee after shooting.
Second choice for me would probably be Nephrekh, if only so you can now ignore all models/terrain and put yourself in hilarious positions far easier.
Third would be mephrit cause with decent ranges it'll probably be relevant though maybe not overly needed.
Nihilakh Seems like a waste of this guys mobility and awesome fun explosion so it'd be last choice for me and only for situations..
Sautekh Pointless.
Sautekh would make it a candidate for a second MWBD from Stormlord and Methodical Destruction. Obviously the trait itself doesn't do anything but those are factors to remember.
Lothmar wrote: Hmm yeah, also looks like the Seraptek heavy construct also ignores heavy moving penalty to hit and can move/fire so no need to go Sautekh for the dynasty unless you're focused on being thematic/singular dynasty. **chuckle**
Can also duck out of combat, fire and then charge back in? Dang....
Dynasty grading for him (imo)
Spoiler:
So im guessing tactically you'd probably want to run Novkh primarily with your ability to pull out and ram him right back into melee after shooting.
Second choice for me would probably be Nephrekh, if only so you can now ignore all models/terrain and put yourself in hilarious positions far easier.
Third would be mephrit cause with decent ranges it'll probably be relevant though maybe not overly needed.
Nihilakh Seems like a waste of this guys mobility and awesome fun explosion so it'd be last choice for me and only for situations..
Sautekh Pointless.
Sautekh would make it a candidate for a second MWBD from Stormlord and Methodical Destruction. Obviously the trait itself doesn't do anything but those are factors to remember.
Advancing this thing and still firing all those shiny weapons, is hardly pointless. And surely anything that takes MWBD needs to be an infantry?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm leaning towards trying out a Nihilakh-Canoptek-Seraptek wing. Deceiver redeploy this thing onto an objective, give it +1 2+/4++, deceiver or move up Spyders and Scarabs (smite shields), have it camp there rerolling 1s, getting repairs, spyder resupplying those scarabs, and when its time, ram into the enemy.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lothmar wrote: No worries, new model. Who knows if this will be the finalized data once it's finally out.
The coffin shaped base if you want to give it one is a little amusing. Need to figure out those dimensions so I can proxy something for this.
How would you go about making a base for this thing? thick plasticard?
Lothmar wrote: Hmm yeah, also looks like the Seraptek heavy construct also ignores heavy moving penalty to hit and can move/fire so no need to go Sautekh for the dynasty unless you're focused on being thematic/singular dynasty. **chuckle**
Can also duck out of combat, fire and then charge back in? Dang....
Dynasty grading for him (imo)
Spoiler:
So im guessing tactically you'd probably want to run Novkh primarily with your ability to pull out and ram him right back into melee after shooting.
Second choice for me would probably be Nephrekh, if only so you can now ignore all models/terrain and put yourself in hilarious positions far easier.
Third would be mephrit cause with decent ranges it'll probably be relevant though maybe not overly needed.
Nihilakh Seems like a waste of this guys mobility and awesome fun explosion so it'd be last choice for me and only for situations..
Sautekh Pointless.
Sautekh would make it a candidate for a second MWBD from Stormlord and Methodical Destruction. Obviously the trait itself doesn't do anything but those are factors to remember.
Advancing this thing and still firing all those shiny weapons, is hardly pointless. And surely anything that takes MWBD needs to be an infantry?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm leaning towards trying out a Nihilakh-Canoptek-Seraptek wing. Deceiver redeploy this thing onto an objective, give it +1 2+/4++, deceiver or move up Spyders and Scarabs (smite shields), have it camp there rerolling 1s, getting repairs, spyder resupplying those scarabs, and when its time, ram into the enemy.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lothmar wrote: No worries, new model. Who knows if this will be the finalized data once it's finally out.
The coffin shaped base if you want to give it one is a little amusing. Need to figure out those dimensions so I can proxy something for this.
How would you go about making a base for this thing? thick plasticard?
Oi I keep forgetting that requirement for MWBD. I feel like I always never used it for Tomb Blades and that was my harsh reality we have that limitation. Ya know, for reasons.
Technically, you CAN MWBD Destroyers, and that makes their shooting 2+, rerolling 1s without shelling out for extermination protocols. Just can't do Tomb Blades since they are bikes.
That being said, yeah, removing that requirement would certainly make for some interesting changes in gameplay. If it was changed to any [Dynasty] unit.../grin
I mean it isn't like they foresaw an issue with Canoptek units or Ark variations right? Hell, Monoliths wouldn't be a terrible target for it (though not the best), and it would help justify the 100+ points we gotta spend on HQ units.
I doubt it'll happen but I would love the option of adding Quantum shielding to more of our vehicles, even if we have to purchase it as an addon.
Heck even a strategy or something to give a vehicle that normally doesn't have QS the ability, even if you can only use it once like Ressurection Protocol for characters would be nice.
In Kill Team MWBD affects all models within 6". Could indicate a change in design philosophy, but is more likely just there to account for the ability being especially crappy if it only affected one model.
So...has anyone else noticed how useless the lightning field is? It says every unit within 1" of the bearer takes a mortal wound on a 4+. Every unit. In what scenario would you be engaged with multiple units in such a case that dealing a single mortal would matter? I really think someone fethed up and meant to write model but was thinking of Starcraft or something, but as it still hasn't been FAQ'd they might seriously think this is a good relic.
On a similar note, the gauntlet of conflagration is also a piece of crap. Its a one use seismic assault that has 8" range. Woo scary.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: So...has anyone else noticed how useless the lightning field is?
It says every unit within 1" of the bearer takes a mortal wound on a 4+.
Every unit. In what scenario would you be engaged with multiple units in such a case that dealing a single mortal would matter?
I really think someone fethed up and meant to write model but was thinking of Starcraft or something, but as it still hasn't been FAQ'd they might seriously think this is a good relic.
On a similar note, the gauntlet of conflagration is also a piece of crap. Its a one use seismic assault that has 8" range. Woo scary.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: So...has anyone else noticed how useless the lightning field is? It says every unit within 1" of the bearer takes a mortal wound on a 4+. Every unit. In what scenario would you be engaged with multiple units in such a case that dealing a single mortal would matter? I really think someone fethed up and meant to write model but was thinking of Starcraft or something, but as it still hasn't been FAQ'd they might seriously think this is a good relic.
On a similar note, the gauntlet of conflagration is also a piece of crap. Its a one use seismic assault that has 8" range. Woo scary.
It's taken for the 4++ isn't it
But you get a 4++ from the phase shifter already if you take an overlord or a destroyer lord. Which you generally would want to be engaged in combat. You should never have your crypteks exposed to enemy attack. If they are exposed you have done something wrong. And besides, there are much better relics to put on crypteks. Like the veil of darkness or any of the staffs.
And that still doesn't change the fact that that part of the relic is functionally useless. You should take a relic for everything it offers, not just one aspect of it. That's just good game design. Its not as if per model would have been OP. Its 1" of the bearer, so at most you would be able to effect what, 5 models? A few more if its a destroyer lord. So on a 4+ you'd be able to deal 2-3 mortal wounds, statistically speaking. Meanwhile you have psykers pulling mortal wounds out of their butts.
torblind wrote: You take it for the 4++ for the CCB is what I meant to say.
4+ for a MW for each model, and 4++ to boot, could be seen as OP.
Its still only in the fight phase and has to be within 1" of an enemy model and has a 50% chance of proccing. The damage output isn't what I would call OP. If your worried about the damage output, it could be D3 mortal wounds per unit on a 4+ or something. That would cap the damage output yet at the same time inflict more than 1. But yes, it would be useful on the CCB, that is true. Is it really good design though for a relic to be good on only 1 model?
torblind wrote: I don't mind. Same with the super phylactery for the Destroyer Lord
Which is also poor design. Overlords and lords should take phylacteries too. That's the problem with the necron codex - its really restrictive for arbitrary reasons. There's no reason why I can't give the Destroyer Lord a void scythe, for example.
torblind wrote: I don't mind. Same with the super phylactery for the Destroyer Lord
Which is also poor design. Overlords and lords should take phylacteries too. That's the problem with the necron codex - its really restrictive for arbitrary reasons. There's no reason why I can't give the Destroyer Lord a void scythe, for example.
Because hitting on 4's rerolling 1's would be bad? Like, really bad?
torblind wrote: I don't mind. Same with the super phylactery for the Destroyer Lord
Which is also poor design. Overlords and lords should take phylacteries too. That's the problem with the necron codex - its really restrictive for arbitrary reasons. There's no reason why I can't give the Destroyer Lord a void scythe, for example.
Because hitting on 4's rerolling 1's would be bad? Like, really bad?
But what if I want to though? What if I want to hit something really hard without a relic? He actually hits more times than the Overlord with a voidscythe according to mathhammer, so its not that bad. The voidscythe is overpriced anyway.
torblind wrote: I don't mind. Same with the super phylactery for the Destroyer Lord
Which is also poor design. Overlords and lords should take phylacteries too. That's the problem with the necron codex - its really restrictive for arbitrary reasons. There's no reason why I can't give the Destroyer Lord a void scythe, for example.
Because hitting on 4's rerolling 1's would be bad? Like, really bad?
But what if I want to though? What if I want to hit something really hard without a relic?
He actually hits more times often than the Overlord with a voidscythe according to mathhammer, so its not that bad.
The voidscythe is overpriced anyway.
I agree 100% that Necrons need more customizability in their codex, and having a DLord with the voidscythe is perfectly valid.
Still custom-designing some relics to plug holes in the rules/codex I'm ok with. It's a complex game system to design, a few emergency fixes is fine.
torblind wrote: I don't mind. Same with the super phylactery for the Destroyer Lord
Which is also poor design. Overlords and lords should take phylacteries too. That's the problem with the necron codex - its really restrictive for arbitrary reasons. There's no reason why I can't give the Destroyer Lord a void scythe, for example.
Because hitting on 4's rerolling 1's would be bad? Like, really bad?
But what if I want to though? What if I want to hit something really hard without a relic?
He actually hits more times than the Overlord with a voidscythe according to mathhammer, so its not that bad.
The voidscythe is overpriced anyway.
Well it's a 3+ rerolling 1's and then you subtract the -1. Then Lords just hit a straight 2 times.
two dice rolls 6*6 = 36 options. If you roll 3-6 on the first dice then it's a hit. That's 24/36. 6/36 times you'll roll a 1 and can re-roll that dice, 4 out of those 6 times that will translate into a roll of 3+ and will yield a hit. 24/36+4/36=28/36. Shortened to 7/9 or 4.7/6.
Voidscythe has an average of 2 hits, vs the D-Lord's average of 7/9*4=3,1 hits. Assuming T 1,2,3 or 6 they do the same damage. But against T 4,5 and 7 the Voidscythe does slightly better and against T8 (Knights) the voidscythe is twice as good. Voidscythe Overlord is also far cheaper than a D-Lord.
That’s my bad-but I was talking about the 3+ with a -1 penalty.
And what unit hits on a 3+ with a -1 penalty? Overlords have WS 2+ and are the only units in the codex which are able to take a melee weapon with a negative hit modifier.
How bad is our Codex really?
During my last Games (Guard, Aeldari, Drukhari, Thousand Sons and Raven Guard all lost btw, mostly between 1250 and 2000 pt) this thought ocurred quite often to me. Most of these Games were not even close ones.
Our Point Costs and crappy rule synergies are the greatest Problem.
two dice rolls 6*6 = 36 options. If you roll 3-6 on the first dice then it's a hit. That's 24/36. 6/36 times you'll roll a 1 and can re-roll that dice, 4 out of those 6 times that will translate into a roll of 3+ and will yield a hit. 24/36+4/36=28/36. Shortened to 7/9 or 4.7/6.
Voidscythe has an average of 2 hits, vs the D-Lord's average of 7/9*4=3,1 hits. Assuming T 1,2,3 or 6 they do the same damage. But against T 4,5 and 7 the Voidscythe does slightly better and against T8 (Knights) the voidscythe is twice as good. Voidscythe Overlord is also far cheaper than a D-Lord.
The Overlord could also buff himself in the scenario presented, but whether that's a waste of a MWBD is up to you.
How bad is our Codex really?
During my last Games (Guard, Aeldari, Drukhari, Thousand Sons and Raven Guard all lost btw, mostly between 1250 and 2000 pt) this thought ocurred quite often to me. Most of these Games were not even close ones.
Our Point Costs and crappy rule synergies are the greatest Problem.
We’re fine in casual games. In this context I’m loving our new Codex versus 6th and 7th! The Dynasty options are really engaging and thebuild options are deep.
Competitive environments have unsolvable dilemmas for us and scenarios where we are out-valued on the board. We are firmly bottom tier in that context.
All in all, I prefer this to the reverse! At least we aren’t trapped in a situation where we have few build choices, all of which are OP.
How bad is our Codex really?
During my last Games (Guard, Aeldari, Drukhari, Thousand Sons and Raven Guard all lost btw, mostly between 1250 and 2000 pt) this thought ocurred quite often to me. Most of these Games were not even close ones.
Our Point Costs and crappy rule synergies are the greatest Problem.
What's your list and their lists look like?
I've been following the ITC scene for a while and Necrons overall finish with <40% win rate (SOCAL, LVO, etc.). This is in line with other underperforming factions as well, Grey Knights and Space Marines. In casual games, they seem fine. But are lagging behind in competitive.
How bad is our Codex really?
During my last Games (Guard, Aeldari, Drukhari, Thousand Sons and Raven Guard all lost btw, mostly between 1250 and 2000 pt) this thought ocurred quite often to me. Most of these Games were not even close ones.
Our Point Costs and crappy rule synergies are the greatest Problem.
What's your list and their lists look like?
I've been following the ITC scene for a while and Necrons overall finish with <40% win rate (SOCAL, LVO, etc.). This is in line with other underperforming factions as well, Grey Knights and Space Marines. In casual games, they seem fine. But are lagging behind in competitive.
Well I mostly play what i have in my collection. Mostly 6-10 Destroyers, Overlord, Cryptek. 1-2 Full Squads Immortals, 1 C´tan and 6 Wraiths.
Most of the time my troops are gone T2 same goes for the C´tan.
Most of my enemies lists are the following:
Guard: Many Leeman Russ and Infantry Squads.
T Sons: Tzaangor and Psyker Rush
Drukhari; Ravagers, Razorwings and Kabalites in Raiders (this army is my absolute nemesis, I loose in about 90% of the games without standing a chance)
Raven Guard: Knights supported by Intercessors and Hellblasters.
Ah, no wonder you have having trouble. Necrons struggle against those army comps.
They have a dirth of multi damage weapons, so vehicle spam hurts them. They don't have good psy defense, so psyker spam hurts them. They don't really have any good means at dealing with knights and lords of war. But then again, LoW are pretty bs anyway.
I'm having some success against tyranids at my FLGS. Sort of. I say sort of because I lose on victory points, but if I manage to wipe him out before the game ends I win by default. I somehow lose less models than he does. I still lose most of my units, so its more of a phyrric victory. Makes for some great games though.
Tried nihilahk against him today, without a doomsday ark. Not sure I'm a fan of it, even if I were to have a DDA. You really want to move a lot to claim objectives, especially in a maelstrom game, which runs counter to the dynastic code. The relic is nice though. That 5+++ is pretty useful, even if the reroll is disappointing. I think Nephrekh and Novokh are my favorites so far. Nephrekh is great for board control, and Novokh is useful if you want to be aggressive or are against an army that wants to be in assault.
IG Lemons can be dealt with mathematically with Doomsday Arks, in a vacuum the Leman Russ is the DDA's ideal target (multi-wound model with high toughness and no invuln). The problem is the extreme variance on the Doomsday Ark, one-shotting a russ and whiffing entirely are both completely within the realm of possibility.
Arachnofiend wrote: IG Lemons can be dealt with mathematically with Doomsday Arks, in a vacuum the Leman Russ is the DDA's ideal target (multi-wound model with high toughness and no invuln). The problem is the extreme variance on the Doomsday Ark, one-shotting a russ and whiffing entirely are both completely within the realm of possibility.
That's why one takes two.
Of course, there are two problems with this.
The first is that its 200 points per model.
The second is that you have to build a Doomsday Ark. I hope you like finicky connections, a convoluted construction method that involves painting it while you are building it, and an end product that keeps drooping because of how poorly balanced it is.
I maintain that the 5th ed necron era models were designed by artists and not hobbyists. Oh sure, they look pretty, but to actually build and use in game? Annoying. Just give me a mini monolith, a nice square block I can quickly slap together and plop on the table without worrying about it snapping in half.
Built an Ark fully magnetized. It was a gruelling process with about 48 magnets in all. Feeling of accomplishment is there but the will to do another two just like it is not as strong.
I literally just finished building a second DDA. The kit is a nightmare.
Otherwise yeah, 3 Nihiliak DDAs are a nasty fire base hitting on 3s rerolling 1s if your numbers of shots are good.
So guys.
If you're running your Seraptek Heavy Construct Forward towards melee...what is your unit/units of choice to support it in melee? Or do you send it alone and hope it blows up half their army when it dies?
iGuy91 wrote: So guys.
If you're running your Seraptek Heavy Construct Forward towards melee...what is your unit/units of choice to support it in melee? Or do you send it alone and hope it blows up half their army when it dies?
Always overwhelm him with targets.
So wraiths, scarabs , or Deceiver up a silver ride or two, or two TVaults.
So I received my Seraptek today, but they mixed up the order and gave me two of one weapon set instead of one of each :/
Sounds as if they mixed up or straight forgot weapons with a lot deliveries...This isnt the best advertisement for someone like me who wanted to buy something from them...At least their support seems nice and helpful...
iGuy91 wrote: So guys.
If you're running your Seraptek Heavy Construct Forward towards melee...what is your unit/units of choice to support it in melee? Or do you send it alone and hope it blows up half their army when it dies?
Always overwhelm him with targets.
So wraiths, scarabs , or Deceiver up a silver ride or two, or two TVaults.
So I received my Seraptek today, but they mixed up the order and gave me two of one weapon set instead of one of each :/
Well on flipside you could end up with extra set of weapons with this for conversion/terrain!
iGuy91 wrote: So guys.
If you're running your Seraptek Heavy Construct Forward towards melee...what is your unit/units of choice to support it in melee? Or do you send it alone and hope it blows up half their army when it dies?
Always overwhelm him with targets.
So wraiths, scarabs , or Deceiver up a silver ride or two, or two TVaults.
So I received my Seraptek today, but they mixed up the order and gave me two of one weapon set instead of one of each :/
Well on flipside you could end up with extra set of weapons with this for conversion/terrain!
Right? These things would make awesome heavy destroyers, with some minor tweaks
iGuy91 wrote: So guys.
If you're running your Seraptek Heavy Construct Forward towards melee...what is your unit/units of choice to support it in melee? Or do you send it alone and hope it blows up half their army when it dies?
Always overwhelm him with targets.
So wraiths, scarabs , or Deceiver up a silver ride or two, or two TVaults.
So I received my Seraptek today, but they mixed up the order and gave me two of one weapon set instead of one of each :/
Well on flipside you could end up with extra set of weapons with this for conversion/terrain!
Right? These things would make awesome heavy destroyers, with some minor tweaks
Yep. Annoying if you needed the second weapon set soon(say for tournament) but if there's no immediate pressure to have them getting incorrect product is least of my worries with GW/FW. Generally they will simply send up new thing and you get to keep the incorrect one. So while it can be annoying you end up with extras with it. Generally I can live with that. Customer service is GW's best part.
iGuy91 wrote: So guys.
If you're running your Seraptek Heavy Construct Forward towards melee...what is your unit/units of choice to support it in melee? Or do you send it alone and hope it blows up half their army when it dies?
Always overwhelm him with targets.
So wraiths, scarabs , or Deceiver up a silver ride or two, or two TVaults.
So I received my Seraptek today, but they mixed up the order and gave me two of one weapon set instead of one of each :/
Well on flipside you could end up with extra set of weapons with this for conversion/terrain!
Right? These things would make awesome heavy destroyers, with some minor tweaks
Yep. Annoying if you needed the second weapon set soon(say for tournament) but if there's no immediate pressure to have them getting incorrect product is least of my worries with GW/FW. Generally they will simply send up new thing and you get to keep the incorrect one. So while it can be annoying you end up with extras with it. Generally I can live with that. Customer service is GW's best part.
I too recieved my seraptek with two sets of the same weapon instead of one of each. Somebody messed this up bad as I've seen an overwhelming amount of posts around stating the same thing.
Are you worried about your (heavy) destroyers being shot off the table T1 ? You dont want to spend CP to put them in deepstrike T2 ? There is a solution. Put them in an imperial bunker for 100 pts. It can hold INFANTRY CHARACTERS and one unit of INFANTRY up to a maximum of 10 models. 5 models can shoot in their shooting phase, and they can even shoot if enemy models are within 1" of the bunker. The bunker has T8 W12 and 3+ sv.
How about a 5+ inv for your 3 DDAs ? Put them on top of a skyshield landing pad for 110 pts. The pad has T8 W20 and 4+ sv.
Both models are UNALIGNED and can be used in any faction army as a fortification network detachment.
Waste of pts. You're not getting any more firepower, 35 pts per model assuming you take 3 to get a 5+ invul until you move isn't amazing, it's also broadcasting where your DDAs are going to go. You could get 2 Destroyers instead of that Bunker, 3 lascannons for 271 pts or 5 Destroyers for 250. The bunker is tough, but your opponent can just ignore those 3 lascannons and get the rest of your army. They don't seem horrible, they seem pretty balanced so if you like them I'd say go ahead and take them. But they look Imperial so I'd rather bring more stuff that is actually Necrons. Pretty stupid of me to buy them last edition, but they were quite good then (assuming you were going somewhat soft and took a CAD).
Waste of pts. You're not getting any more firepower, 35 pts per model assuming you take 3 to get a 5+ invul until you move isn't amazing, it's also broadcasting where your DDAs are going to go. You could get 2 Destroyers instead of that Bunker, 3 lascannons for 271 pts or 5 Destroyers for 250. The bunker is tough, but your opponent can just ignore those 3 lascannons and get the rest of your army. They don't seem horrible, they seem pretty balanced so if you like them I'd say go ahead and take them. But they look Imperial so I'd rather bring more stuff that is actually Necrons. Pretty stupid of me to buy them last edition, but they were quite good then (assuming you were going somewhat soft and took a CAD).
Keep in mind that you can play reclaim a lost empire on your nihilakh DDA to improve the inv to 4+ while its on a skyshield landing pad. It works only for one DDA, though. You can play RALE three times for three DDAs, but thats 6 CP.
iGuy91 wrote:Instead, I'd rather play on a table with enough terrain to allow me to block LoS.
You dont get what the bunker is for. You can shoot your opponent, but your opponent cant shoot you. Usually if your unit can shoot, it can be shot at. You can also use the bunker to bring your units closer to the enemy. Deploy the bunker with units embarked in it, disembark within 3", move, and charge T1. Your units are pretty much safe inside, they cant be shot at. Your opponent would have to destroy the bunker first.
Why are you concerned about your DDA being shot up. They have 14 wounds and quantum sheilding. High AP weapons typical have high damage roles so you are practically immune to them. Something like a battle cannon is only AP -2 so if you are in cover you still have a 5+ save so a 5++ doesn't matter at all (considering your range you should ALWAYS be in cover).
I think you are missing the point with the DDA and why it is good. It's good because out of the box it is your best anti tank option and it doesn't need anything else to work.
What to shoot my quantum sheilded DDA? Great! You aren't shooting my more vulnerable destroyers and might fail to wipe them and they can resurrect.
Leave your DDA as bait because they have the best chance to wiff damage.
p5freak wrote: *snip*
Keep in mind that you can play reclaim a lost empire on your nihilakh DDA to improve the inv to 4+ while its on a skyshield landing pad. It works only for one DDA, though. You can play RALE three times for three DDAs, but thats 6 CP.
*snip*
You can't play a Stratagem more than once per phase, so no more than one DDA can benefit from RALE per turn.
1 Cryptek (staff of light + canoptek cloak + veil of darkness) WL (hyperlogical strategist) 85
1 Cryptek (staff of light + canoptek cloak + the abyssal staff) 85
5 Immortals (tesla carbines) 85
5 Immortals (tesla carbines) 85
5 Immortals (tesla carbines) 85
1 Doomsday Ark 193
1 Doomsday Ark 193
1 Doomsday Ark 193
1 Tesseract Vault 496
1 Tesseract Vault 496
I lost a game against a newb with an Elysian/Catachan AM list with my double Vault list (I said I'd bring my most competetive list if he didn't say whether or not he was bringing a casual list and he was super excited for the challenge). We played CA Maelstrom and rolled the mission with reinforcements, my army was too slow to get all the objectives on the board. I mostly attribute this loss to a ridiculous mission, still a fun game, my opponent threw all his Elysians at me and they got vaporised because I had nothing else to shoot at.
I lost an ITC game against a competitive DE list with my double Vault list. I move forwards, kill two Venoms in my turn 1 because he's hugging his board edge. He kills a Vault and two DDAs having rolled 0 damage rolls below 4+ on his first five unsaved blaster wounds. I kill some Warriors and a Ravager and surrender after asking him if he will be able to find another game if we ended it at that. I think I should have advanced my Vaults T1, otherwise it just seemed hopeless. I also took some jank secondaries, I need to be better about reading the mission rules more thoroughly.
1 Cryptek (staff of light + canoptek cloak) Warlord (Triarch) Relic (The Veil of Darkness) 85
6 Canoptek Wraiths 330
7 Canoptek Scarabs 91
3 Canoptek Scarabs 39
3 Canoptek Scarabs 39
1 C'tan Shard of the Nightbringer 210
1 C'tan Shard of the Deceiver 225
1 Transcendent C'tan 225
1 Cryptek (staff of light + canoptek cloak) 85
1 Overlord (hyperphase sword) 87
5 Immortals (gauss blasters) 85
5 Immortals (gauss blasters) 85
5 Immortals (gauss blasters) 85
I lost a game against Admech with my triple C'tan list, I forgot to use the Deceiver and after the game I noticed I had forgotten 300 pts. I'm not sure if my other two games included 6 Destroyers I assume so, otherwise I managed to beat a Tau player badly with a 1700 pt Necron list. The list struggled a lot and I don't think I would have had a chance even with the Destroyers, there was too much vehicle action for me to deal with and not enough small units to wipe out with Powers of the C'tan, I might be cooling off on the small C'tan a bit.
Lost an ITC game with my no troops list against a double Primarch list with a bunch of nurgle zombies. I failed to kill Mortarion, which felt very unfair because my list is pretty much tailored to do it, but I did an average amount of damage... Huh. After that Morty and Magnus got -1 to hit and I didn't end up killing either of them turn 2 because I put too much firepower on Magnus so I ended up 1 short on Mortarion. By now I'm 6 behind on VP, I kill Mortarion and Magnus turn 3, end up killing most of his list in the end and losing less than half my list but failing to kill a unit T1/2 and controlling fewer objectives T1/2 because I wanted everything in my Lord's aura lost me the game. I thought it was because I was unlucky, but I actually just needed to be more aware of the math.
I won an ITC game against a DE list with some Craftworld psykers thrown in with my no troops list. Destroyers are really good against DE... and most other things, it's hard to overstate their usefulness. I think this list might be slightly better than the double Vault list, Vaults are definitely insane against short range/melee lists, but I feel like this list is as well. The Vault is a lot harder to transport so I think if I'm going to any tournaments I'll bring something like this.
I won a Sealed Orders Maelstrom game with my Novokh Lychguard spam list against a Blood Angels newb. He thought he was better in melee, he was wrong. My opponent let me use the Veil of Darkness after shooting with a unit, I need to be better about remembering to use it when I want to and not jump ahead to shooting. I also didn't focus very much on the missions, which was a pretty risky thing, if half a dozen rolls didn't go my way it might have lost me the game, especially for ITC matches I need to be better about focussing on the mission.
1 Seraptek Heavy Construct (2x Singularity Projector) 625
I won a game by way of annihilation against a Alpha Legion/Renegades list with my new Seraptek Sautekh list. Everything clicked, the Construct was amazing, took out 6 Earthshaker immobile thingies (1 wound to finish one off from my Triarch Stalker) 2 Punisher Battletanks (6 wounds from a Stalker against the first before shooting the Construct at it and 3 wounds to finish the other one off with Immortals), a single Havoc, a Unique Chaos Lord, a Dark Apostle, a Renegade Commander and 15 Cultists. Triarch Stalker was pretty good before it died, I made some bad saving throws but it absorbing fire from the Construct and my Immortals was actually pretty neat. The characters didn't feel too much like tax, but now that I'm thinking about it I never advanced the construct so I didn't need it to be part of a Supreme Command Detachment, I was probably overestimating the need for it to have a Dynasty.
Thanks for the update games. Really want to find out if the FW Construct is good enough to replace 3 DDay Arks. $300+ is a lot to drop on a sub par choice.
The list I have bouncing around in my head has that in a Novoke supreme with two D lord and a cloak cryptek with a slot of flayed ones for screen and such. It has such melee capability and by turn two or three you want it to blow up and cripple your opponent.
vict0988 wrote: [
I won a game by way of annihilation against a Alpha Legion/Renegades list with my new Seraptek Sautekh list. Everything clicked, the Construct was amazing, took out 6 Earthshaker immobile thingies (1 wound to finish one off from my Triarch Stalker) 2 Punisher Battletanks (6 wounds from a Stalker against the first before shooting the Construct at it and 3 wounds to finish the other one off with Immortals), a single Havoc, a Unique Chaos Lord, a Dark Apostle, a Renegade Commander and 15 Cultists. Triarch Stalker was pretty good before it died, I made some bad saving throws but it absorbing fire from the Construct and my Immortals was actually pretty neat. The characters didn't feel too much like tax, but now that I'm thinking about it I never advanced the construct so I didn't need it to be part of a Supreme Command Detachment, I was probably overestimating the need for it to have a Dynasty.
The Aux super heavy detachment doesn't get dynasty codes though.
vict0988 wrote: [
I won a game by way of annihilation against a Alpha Legion/Renegades list with my new Seraptek Sautekh list. Everything clicked, the Construct was amazing, took out 6 Earthshaker immobile thingies (1 wound to finish one off from my Triarch Stalker) 2 Punisher Battletanks (6 wounds from a Stalker against the first before shooting the Construct at it and 3 wounds to finish the other one off with Immortals), a single Havoc, a Unique Chaos Lord, a Dark Apostle, a Renegade Commander and 15 Cultists. Triarch Stalker was pretty good before it died, I made some bad saving throws but it absorbing fire from the Construct and my Immortals was actually pretty neat. The characters didn't feel too much like tax, but now that I'm thinking about it I never advanced the construct so I didn't need it to be part of a Supreme Command Detachment, I was probably overestimating the need for it to have a Dynasty.
The Aux super heavy detachment doesn't get dynasty codes though.
Which is why he put it in a Supreme Command Detachment
Still isn't Necron's problem one of damage output more than defence?
Well, sort of. We have plenty of high powered weapons, but they are on expensive platforms. Our problems are range, lack of synergy, and point cost.
I'm not too concerned about range, as being medium ranged and deadly is sort of our thing, even back in 3rd ed.
Our synergy and points costs suck though, and we can't spread out our damage sources as well as other factions.
It would be nice if we had units that excel at what they do but fail in other areas, but the only unit that does that is the destroyer.
The way I see it, necrons should be like a machine; each part should compliment each other and have a specific purpose.
There should be an anti-tank specialist unit that's really good at killing tanks, but that's the only unit that's good at it. And anti-infantry specialist, an anti-psyker specialist, etc.
I feel that GW tried doing something like that, but they didn't get it right, which is why a lot of our army feels anemic.
vict0988 wrote: [
I won a game by way of annihilation against a Alpha Legion/Renegades list with my new Seraptek Sautekh list. Everything clicked, the Construct was amazing, took out 6 Earthshaker immobile thingies (1 wound to finish one off from my Triarch Stalker) 2 Punisher Battletanks (6 wounds from a Stalker against the first before shooting the Construct at it and 3 wounds to finish the other one off with Immortals), a single Havoc, a Unique Chaos Lord, a Dark Apostle, a Renegade Commander and 15 Cultists. Triarch Stalker was pretty good before it died, I made some bad saving throws but it absorbing fire from the Construct and my Immortals was actually pretty neat. The characters didn't feel too much like tax, but now that I'm thinking about it I never advanced the construct so I didn't need it to be part of a Supreme Command Detachment, I was probably overestimating the need for it to have a Dynasty.
The Aux super heavy detachment doesn't get dynasty codes though.
Which is why he put it in a Supreme Command Detachment
Where does it say that a super-heavy aux detachment does not benefit from dynastic codes? I've looked everywhere I can think of and do not see anything about this. I know IK traditions specifically only can be applied to a normal super-heavy detachment, but that is the only restriction I've found. Where did I miss this rule?
Maelstrom808 wrote: Where does it say that a super-heavy aux detachment does not benefit from dynastic codes? I've looked everywhere I can think of and do not see anything about this. I know IK traditions specifically only can be applied to a normal super-heavy detachment, but that is the only restriction I've found. Where did I miss this rule?
Necron codex pg. 108. Right above their number is legion, their name is death.
The same page, buttom right, says that CTAN SHARD units can never get a dynasty code. This means a tvault doesnt get them, not even in a supreme command detachment.
But, if you want to get real picky, there are no CTAN SHARD units in the entire necron codex. Only CTAN SHARDS. This hasnt been changed in the necron FAQ, nor in the big FAQ 2. So, intended, or not ?
Still isn't Necron's problem one of damage output more than defence?
Well, sort of. We have plenty of high powered weapons, but they are on expensive platforms. Our problems are range, lack of synergy, and point cost.
I'm not too concerned about range, as being medium ranged and deadly is sort of our thing, even back in 3rd ed.
Our synergy and points costs suck though, and we can't spread out our damage sources as well as other factions.
It would be nice if we had units that excel at what they do but fail in other areas, but the only unit that does that is the destroyer.
The way I see it, necrons should be like a machine; each part should compliment each other and have a specific purpose.
There should be an anti-tank specialist unit that's really good at killing tanks, but that's the only unit that's good at it. And anti-infantry specialist, an anti-psyker specialist, etc.
I feel that GW tried doing something like that, but they didn't get it right, which is why a lot of our army feels anemic.
Yeah, I agree a lot here.
Mid-range is our thing, and really shoulden't change. We have a few long range options and that's great.
I think the devs just greatly overestimated the power of RP and our vehicle durability, and thus nearly every unit costing way more than it should.
I am probably going to pick up a seraptak here before too long. I've always been a fan of the Forgeworld models, though I do hope they revist a few like the Tessract Ark and adjust it's rules and points.
FW model rules didnt change with the codex, they didnt change in the necron FAQ, neither in the big FAQ 2, why should it happen with CA ? Highly unlikely.
I lost the roll off to go first (I always do against this friend of mine, I don't know why.)
But I wisely put my scarabs in front of my wraiths, and deployed pretty tight, and 2 inches back from deployment edge. Destroyers out of LOS, Doomsday arks way out wide in the corners with good LOS. He ran forward, shooting from his tanks and knights killed an Ark despite the Quantum shielding strat. Smites were all wasted on scarabs. Knight fails to charge the scarabs since I deployed and inch away from deployment line. On my turn, I popped MWBD on both tesla squads, and let loose with the reroll 1s to wound on the knight with basically everything. The scarabs charge in, followed by wraiths, and between the two, kill it in melee. Next turn, I move my voidreaper Overlord up, and he spends the rest of the game slicing down plague marines and fighting plague drones. Game ended with concession at end of turn 3 as I was getting farther and farther ahead, and he was running out of units. (Had 1 Blighthauler, 1 Drone, 10 cultists left). End of the game I had lost 1 unit of immortals, the scarabs, a doomsday ark, and my cryptek. Everything else was still alive and reanimating faster at that point than he could kill it.
Thoughts - Mephrit was a godsend this game. I had a feeling I'd get bum rushed. I sat tight in a phalanx double popping MWBD, reanimating on 4+, with a 5++ on my 30 immortals, shooting at targets around 12 inches out with tesla. The -1 AP was very handy.
MVP? A simple Necron Lord. Giving 30 immortals Reroll 1s to wound vs knights and plague drones made them a very effective firing platform. They did more damage to the knight than the DDAs.
Runner Up: Destroyers - I had all 6 at the end of the day still due to excellent LOS placement keeping them safe, and continuing to fire with EP all game. Dished out solid damage.
Least valuable Unit? Doomsday Arks. The two of them barely scratched any of their intended targets. Saves against them were solid. To wound rolls were poor. Ate a lot of ranged anti tank, letting destroyers do the work instead.
daismith906 wrote: Anyone come up with a decent supreme command detachment to add a Serptek heavy construct?
That'd be a tough one. Depending what Code you're looking at, perhaps 3 Destroyer Lords as Novokh (1 Casket, 1 Voidreaper, 1 Blood Scythe), or you could go Mephrit with 2 CCB (1 lightning field, 1 Voltaic) and a Lord with the Veil for some shenanigans I guess. It's kinda hard because all our HQ is super expensive.
Dynastic Heirlooms: Dynastic Heirlooms: 1 Extra Artefact (-1CP)
Dynasty Choice: Dynasty: Novokh
+ HQ +
Cryptek [5 PL, 85pts]: Canoptek Cloak, Staff of Light
Destroyer Lord [7 PL, 131pts]: Artefact: The Veil of Darkness, Phylactery, Warscythe
Destroyer Lord [7 PL, 131pts]: Artefact: The Nanoscarab Casket, Phylactery, Warscythe
. Warlord: Warlord Trait (Novokh): Crimson Haze
+ Lord of War +
Seraptek Heavy Construct [32 PL, 625pts]: Two Singularity Generators
++ Total: [51 PL, 972pts] ++
This is probably the best you can do unless you want to include a Deceiver to GI the Construct.
Have Construct walk up the field, use Cloaktek to heal D3 wounds a turn and when your Construct in near Charge distance of a few units, VoD the 2 D Lord's and use Crimson Haze to get the Construct and D Lords pop more hits on 6 to hit. And, with the extra hits the construct generates you can than choose what profile to do them attacks on.
Pretty reliant on getting into CC but like all Canoptek and Cryptek creations they are built for CC with guns as a secondary option.
Came up with a 2500pts list using the construct, go big or go home
Thoughts?
Spoiler:
Battalion detachment - sautekh
HQ Cryptek with cloak
Lord with Warscythe (warlord and hyperlogical strategist)
Troops
X5 immortals with tesla
X5 immortals with tesla
X5 immortals with tesla
Heavy
Doomsday ark
Doomsday ark
Doomsday ark
1003pts
Outrider detachment - Nephrek
Hq Cryptek - VOD, Chronometron
Fast attack
5 scarabs
5 scarabs
6 destroyers
525pts
Supreme command detachment
Extra artefact - 1 CP
Hq Cryptek
Destroyer lord - casket, phylactery, warscythe
Destroyer lord - phylactery, warscythe
Lord of war
Seraptek heavy construct - 2 synaptic obliterators & 2 Transdimensional projectors
972pts
Total points 2500pts
Should paste armour, but you'll struggle with hordes. If it's at all possible, I'd try to buff the Immortal squads up to max. 30 Tesla Immortals would solve your horde problem in a jiffy. Not sure what I'd drop to fit them in though.
Probably for Dynasty benefits. Construct would be re-rolling hit rolls in CC with that benefit if charged, was charged or Heroic Intervention. Heavy Aux would null any of that benefit but would save on 270-300pts.
Came up with a 2500pts list using the construct, go big or go home
Thoughts?
Spoiler:
Battalion detachment - sautekh
HQ Cryptek with cloak
Lord with Warscythe (warlord and hyperlogical strategist)
Troops
X5 immortals with tesla
X5 immortals with tesla
X5 immortals with tesla
Heavy
Doomsday ark
Doomsday ark
Doomsday ark
1003pts
Outrider detachment - Nephrek
Hq Cryptek - VOD, Chronometron
Fast attack
5 scarabs
5 scarabs
6 destroyers
525pts
Supreme command detachment
Extra artefact - 1 CP
Hq Cryptek
Destroyer lord - casket, phylactery, warscythe
Destroyer lord - phylactery, warscythe
Lord of war
Seraptek heavy construct - 2 synaptic obliterators & 2 Transdimensional projectors
972pts
Total points 2500pts
Looking at this list I would either bring all Immortals or none at all. We aren't really that CP hungry and we don't generate much CPs due to our army costs. So you be better of either dropping the immo for different units or maxing them out to make them stay longer. Also why Sautekh? Nothing in that list really benefits from that code unless you plan on moving the DDAs or advancing them? Also Hyper Strat warlord trait can only gain you 1CP a turn now. Not really sure if that's worth the investment. And the Lord won't be doing much with 15 immos who will die straight away.
I'm also a bit confused as to why you gave the Nephrekh Cryptek the VoD when you can use 2 CPs to put the Cryptek and Destroyers into deep strike using the Nephrekh stratgem?
Finally, the reason to bring the construct in a Novokh detachment is so you can use Crimson Haze to generate more attacks e.g. do 18 attacks 1st, use Crimzon Haze to make all your 6 do 1 extra hit. So let's say you rolled 5 6s. Those 5 extra hit can now be done at the S8 -2 D3 profile or s16 -4 D6 profile. If your not using it to generate extra hits you will be better of bringing it in an Aux detachment. That's my opinion anyway.
Probably for Dynasty benefits. Construct would be re-rolling hit rolls in CC with that benefit if charged, was charged or Heroic Intervention. Heavy Aux would null any of that benefit but would save on 270-300pts.
Came up with a 2500pts list using the construct, go big or go home
Thoughts?
Spoiler:
Battalion detachment - sautekh
HQ Cryptek with cloak
Lord with Warscythe (warlord and hyperlogical strategist)
Troops
X5 immortals with tesla
X5 immortals with tesla
X5 immortals with tesla
Heavy
Doomsday ark
Doomsday ark
Doomsday ark
1003pts
Outrider detachment - Nephrek
Hq Cryptek - VOD, Chronometron
Fast attack
5 scarabs
5 scarabs
6 destroyers
525pts
Supreme command detachment
Extra artefact - 1 CP
Hq Cryptek
Destroyer lord - casket, phylactery, warscythe
Destroyer lord - phylactery, warscythe
Lord of war
Seraptek heavy construct - 2 synaptic obliterators & 2 Transdimensional projectors
972pts
Total points 2500pts
Looking at this list I would either bring all Immortals or none at all. We aren't really that CP hungry and we don't generate much CPs due to our army costs. So you be better of either dropping the immo for different units or maxing them out to make them stay longer. Also why Sautekh? Nothing in that list really benefits from that code unless you plan on moving the DDAs or advancing them? Also Hyper Strat warlord trait can only gain you 1CP a turn now. Not really sure if that's worth the investment. And the Lord won't be doing much with 15 immos who will die straight away.
I'm also a bit confused as to why you gave the Nephrekh Cryptek the VoD when you can use 2 CPs to put the Cryptek and Destroyers into deep strike using the Nephrekh stratgem?
Finally, the reason to bring the construct in a Novokh detachment is so you can use Crimson Haze to generate more attacks e.g. do 18 attacks 1st, use Crimzon Haze to make all your 6 do 1 extra hit. So let's say you rolled 5 6s. Those 5 extra hit can now be done at the S8 -2 D3 profile or s16 -4 D6 profile. If your not using it to generate extra hits you will be better of bringing it in an Aux detachment. That's my opinion anyway.
Wait, he's asking about the three-HQ detachment, right? At least that's what people are answering him.
I lost the roll off to go first (I always do against this friend of mine, I don't know why.)
But I wisely put my scarabs in front of my wraiths, and deployed pretty tight, and 2 inches back from deployment edge. Destroyers out of LOS, Doomsday arks way out wide in the corners with good LOS. He ran forward, shooting from his tanks and knights killed an Ark despite the Quantum shielding strat. Smites were all wasted on scarabs. Knight fails to charge the scarabs since I deployed and inch away from deployment line. On my turn, I popped MWBD on both tesla squads, and let loose with the reroll 1s to wound on the knight with basically everything. The scarabs charge in, followed by wraiths, and between the two, kill it in melee. Next turn, I move my voidreaper Overlord up, and he spends the rest of the game slicing down plague marines and fighting plague drones. Game ended with concession at end of turn 3 as I was getting farther and farther ahead, and he was running out of units. (Had 1 Blighthauler, 1 Drone, 10 cultists left). End of the game I had lost 1 unit of immortals, the scarabs, and my cryptek. Everything else was still alive and reanimating faster at that point than he could kill it.
Thoughts - Mephrit was a godsend this game. I had a feeling I'd get bum rushed. I sat tight in a phalanx double popping MWBD, reanimating on 4+, shooting at targets around 12 inches out with tesla. The -1 AP was very handy.
MVP? A simple Necron Lord. Giving 30 immortals Reroll 1s to wound vs knights and plague drones made them a very effective firing platform. They did more damage to the knight than the DDAs.
Runner Up: Destroyers - I had all 6 at the end of the day still due to excellent LOS placement keeping them safe, and continuing to fire with EP all game. Dished out solid damage.
Least valuable Unit? Doomsday Arks. The two of them barely scratched any of their intended targets. Saves against them were solid. To wound rolls were poor. Ate a lot of ranged anti tank, letting destroyers do the work instead.
Nice win, especially since I think we can struggle with Knights right now. I am very impressed that your immortals did more damage than the DDA. I really wish they had made the shots and damage 2D3 instead of 1D6 on the DDA.
IHateNids wrote: Corrct me if I'm wrong, but can't your extra attacks from CH be used to swing the 3-for-1 weapon profile more?
if not, why?
No you can't because unlike with Mortarion we don't get extra attacks, we get extra hit rolls. Someone mentioned making 18 attacks and then when making the extra hit rolls with the stronger profile, I don't think that's a valid interpretation since you don't get to swing with some of your attacks with one profile and some with the other. It just says "When attacking with this weapon, choose one of the profiles below" you're only attacking once, you're not attacking 6 times, you just make 6 attacks the one time you attack. You're also not attacking again when you get to make those additional hit rolls, you're attacking once, just with multiple attacks and then making additional hit rolls. I do tend to take the most conservative route when it comes to my own units, but I suggest you do the same and then ask GW or your TO how it is supposed to work.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pyrothem wrote: Thanks for the update games. Really want to find out if the FW Construct is good enough to replace 3 DDay Arks. $300+ is a lot to drop on a sub par choice.
The list I have bouncing around in my head has that in a Novoke supreme with two D lord and a cloak cryptek with a slot of flayed ones for screen and such. It has such melee capability and by turn two or three you want it to blow up and cripple your opponent.
I was going to say no, but now I'm wondering if the right choice is buy two.
I won a maelstrom game against Nids/GSC, I went first I forgot my powers of the C'tan turn 2 and 3, but I still managed to destroy everything except his lone Genestealer before his third turn began. There are lists that can take this one out, but this definitely isn't safe for casual and I'm beginning to rethink whether or not even bringing one to a casual game is okay. I went with the obliterator/projector loadout this game and it definitely seems best, the flat 6 damage absolutely obliterates 10-12 W Vehicles/MCs. At the very least the Construct is nowhere near as bad as I initially thought, I might have to play Imperial Knights a couple of times for comparison, I'd still wait a while with buying one, I'll another test, maybe two or three tomorrow, opponent's permit.
Well if you are getting ok results out of it without using melee which can be agreed on is at least half of its offensive output, that sounds like we might be seeing this thing in the table instead on the shelf.
IHateNids wrote: Corrct me if I'm wrong, but can't your extra attacks from CH be used to swing the 3-for-1 weapon profile more?
if not, why?
This is correct, think it was confirmed in an faq for mortarion
It's important to check wordings though. Mortarion generates extra ATTACKS and weapon has "make 3 hit rolls for each attack with this weapon". Meanwhile for example goff's ability generates extra HIT ROLLS for each 6 to hit and as gorkanaut makes 3 hit rolls for each ATTACK it means goff's exploding 6's cannot be used to generate 3 extra hits.
Don't have rules for construct and necron with me so can't check relevant wordings on this particular case but recommend checking does it generate extra ATTACKS or extra HIT ROLLS.
You cant make attacks with the other profile because CH doesnt generate attacks.
Crimson haze
Each time you roll an unmodified hit roll of 6 in the Fight phase for a model in a friendly NOVOKH unit that is within 6" of your Warlord, you can make one additional hit roll for that model with the same weapon against the same target. These additional hit rolls cannot themselves generate any further hit rolls.
p5freak wrote: You cant make attacks with the other profile because CH doesnt generate attacks.
Crimson haze
Each time you roll an unmodified hit roll of 6 in the Fight phase for a model in a friendly NOVOKH unit that is within 6" of your Warlord, you can make one additional hit roll for that model with the same weapon against the same target. These additional hit rolls cannot themselves generate any further hit rolls.
Okay so identical with goffs then. No 3 attacks with those indeed.
Pyrothem wrote: Well if you are getting ok results out of it without using melee which can be agreed on is at least half of its offensive output, that sounds like we might be seeing this thing in the table instead on the shelf.
In my game with two Novokh Constructs: Turn 1 the Constructs killed 4 Zoanthropes and 2 Tyrannofexes with shooting. Turn 2 they did 7 wounds to a Catalysted Hive Tyrant and killed 2 Zoanthropes with shooting, then in melee on my turn 2 they killed 20 Geneguardsmen, opponents turn 2 they killed a Primus and a Patriarch in melee. Turn 3 they killed two Aberrants with shooting, in melee on my turn 3 they did 8 wounds to a non-Catalysted Hive Tyrant, killed 4 Abberants and a Patriarch. You definitely need to sent this thing into CC, that's where the real action happens, you can fall back and charge anyway, no reason not to. I might need to put more information in my battle reports (if you can call them that) if you got the impression I only used them to shoot, in my first game I brought one I went and one-shotted a Knight with a Novokh Construct in melee, it did relatively little with shooting. In my second game my Sautekh Construct did most of its killing with shooting, but still managed to kill three HQs, a Marine and 15 Cultists in melee. I haven't had one explode yet, but I've lost several hundred pts on a single Vault explosion, you don't want tonnes of units within 10" of this guy when he goes, even with a re-roll you're tempting fate to kick your ass.
p5freak wrote: You cant make attacks with the other profile because CH doesnt generate attacks.
Crimson haze
Each time you roll an unmodified hit roll of 6 in the Fight phase for a model in a friendly NOVOKH unit that is within 6" of your Warlord, you can make one additional hit roll for that model with the same weapon against the same target. These additional hit rolls cannot themselves generate any further hit rolls.
I should have known, we never get the good exploits
Pyrothem wrote: Well if you are getting ok results out of it without using melee which can be agreed on is at least half of its offensive output, that sounds like we might be seeing this thing in the table instead on the shelf.
In my game with two Novokh Constructs: Turn 1 the Constructs killed 4 Zoanthropes and 2 Tyrannofexes with shooting. Turn 2 they did 7 wounds to a Catalysted Hive Tyrant and killed 2 Zoanthropes with shooting, then in melee on my turn 2 they killed 20 Geneguardsmen, opponents turn 2 they killed a Primus and a Patriarch in melee. Turn 3 they killed two Aberrants with shooting, in melee on my turn 3 they did 8 wounds to a non-Catalysted Hive Tyrant, killed 4 Abberants and a Patriarch. You definitely need to sent this thing into CC, that's where the real action happens, you can fall back and charge anyway, no reason not to. I might need to put more information in my battle reports (if you can call them that) if you got the impression I only used them to shoot, in my first game I brought one I went and one-shotted a Knight with a Novokh Construct in melee, it did relatively little with shooting. In my second game my Sautekh Construct did most of its killing with shooting, but still managed to kill three HQs, a Marine and 15 Cultists in melee. I haven't had one explode yet, but I've lost several hundred pts on a single Vault explosion, you don't want tonnes of units within 10" of this guy when he goes, even with a re-roll you're tempting fate to kick your ass.
p5freak wrote: FW model rules didnt change with the codex, they didnt change in the necron FAQ, neither in the big FAQ 2, why should it happen with CA ? Highly unlikely.
Because it happened last year. The FAQ only touch on regular gw stuff CA is everything. Last year there were quite a few point changes for forgeworld units and a few updates to rules. The rule changes were mostly clarifications or changes to make the forgeworld rule match the GW version. I fully expect point adjustments at the very least for FW models.
p5freak wrote: FW model rules didnt change with the codex, they didnt change in the necron FAQ, neither in the big FAQ 2, why should it happen with CA ? Highly unlikely.
Because it happened last year. The FAQ only touch on regular gw stuff CA is everything. Last year there were quite a few point changes for forgeworld units and a few updates to rules. The rule changes were mostly clarifications or changes to make the forgeworld rule match the GW version. I fully expect point adjustments at the very least for FW models.
Yes, I'm pretty sure the Gauss Pylon went from 475 to 550 points in Chapter Approved 2017.
p5freak wrote: FW model rules didnt change with the codex, they didnt change in the necron FAQ, neither in the big FAQ 2, why should it happen with CA ? Highly unlikely.
Because it happened last year. The FAQ only touch on regular gw stuff CA is everything. Last year there were quite a few point changes for forgeworld units and a few updates to rules. The rule changes were mostly clarifications or changes to make the forgeworld rule match the GW version. I fully expect point adjustments at the very least for FW models.
I'm hoping the Tesseract Ark went down in points. I love the model I have, but right now it's a worse Doomsday Ark. I'd really like to start seeing 2D3 over all the D6, for our heavy weapons.
I'm hoping the Tesseract Ark went down in points. I love the model I have, but right now it's a worse Doomsday Ark. I'd really like to start seeing 2D3 over all the D6, for our heavy weapons.
Eh, it's not too bad if you play sauthek so you can do drive by shooting and add +1 to it's hit roll, but yeah it's just so outclassed at the moment by even regular destroyers, even versus a knight profile, it's kind of sad.
I'm hoping the Tesseract Ark went down in points. I love the model I have, but right now it's a worse Doomsday Ark. I'd really like to start seeing 2D3 over all the D6, for our heavy weapons.
Eh, it's not too bad if you play sauthek so you can do drive by shooting and add +1 to it's hit roll, but yeah it's just so outclassed at the moment by even regular destroyers, even versus a knight profile, it's kind of sad.
Being outclassed by destroyers is hardly something to hold against it
Pyrothem wrote: Well if you are getting ok results out of it without using melee which can be agreed on is at least half of its offensive output, that sounds like we might be seeing this thing in the table instead on the shelf.
In my game with two Novokh Constructs: Turn 1 the Constructs killed 4 Zoanthropes and 2 Tyrannofexes with shooting. Turn 2 they did 7 wounds to a Catalysted Hive Tyrant and killed 2 Zoanthropes with shooting, then in melee on my turn 2 they killed 20 Geneguardsmen, opponents turn 2 they killed a Primus and a Patriarch in melee. Turn 3 they killed two Aberrants with shooting, in melee on my turn 3 they did 8 wounds to a non-Catalysted Hive Tyrant, killed 4 Abberants and a Patriarch. You definitely need to sent this thing into CC, that's where the real action happens, you can fall back and charge anyway, no reason not to. I might need to put more information in my battle reports (if you can call them that) if you got the impression I only used them to shoot, in my first game I brought one I went and one-shotted a Knight with a Novokh Construct in melee, it did relatively little with shooting. In my second game my Sautekh Construct did most of its killing with shooting, but still managed to kill three HQs, a Marine and 15 Cultists in melee. I haven't had one explode yet, but I've lost several hundred pts on a single Vault explosion, you don't want tonnes of units within 10" of this guy when he goes, even with a re-roll you're tempting fate to kick your ass.
I lost a game against Aeldari with the same list, he brough 18 haywire cannon jetbikes, 4 Venoms, 15 Rangers and some characters. I had nothing good to shoot at, even when my Synaptic Obliterator got through his 5+ invul on his Venoms, if it was just one wound he had a pretty good chance of making his FNP save on it. I got first turn and destroyed 3 Venoms, my opponent destroyed a Construct turn 1. Bad matchup, that list was built to beat this list. I don't think there are any Knight lists that can deal with that many haywire cannons + Doom. I'm not sure about the Construct, it's so powerful in the right circumstances and yet so fragile in a competetive setting.
Pyrothem wrote: Well if you are getting ok results out of it without using melee which can be agreed on is at least half of its offensive output, that sounds like we might be seeing this thing in the table instead on the shelf.
In my game with two Novokh Constructs: Turn 1 the Constructs killed 4 Zoanthropes and 2 Tyrannofexes with shooting. Turn 2 they did 7 wounds to a Catalysted Hive Tyrant and killed 2 Zoanthropes with shooting, then in melee on my turn 2 they killed 20 Geneguardsmen, opponents turn 2 they killed a Primus and a Patriarch in melee. Turn 3 they killed two Aberrants with shooting, in melee on my turn 3 they did 8 wounds to a non-Catalysted Hive Tyrant, killed 4 Abberants and a Patriarch. You definitely need to sent this thing into CC, that's where the real action happens, you can fall back and charge anyway, no reason not to. I might need to put more information in my battle reports (if you can call them that) if you got the impression I only used them to shoot, in my first game I brought one I went and one-shotted a Knight with a Novokh Construct in melee, it did relatively little with shooting. In my second game my Sautekh Construct did most of its killing with shooting, but still managed to kill three HQs, a Marine and 15 Cultists in melee. I haven't had one explode yet, but I've lost several hundred pts on a single Vault explosion, you don't want tonnes of units within 10" of this guy when he goes, even with a re-roll you're tempting fate to kick your ass.
I lost a game against Aeldari with the same list, he brough 18 haywire cannon jetbikes, 4 Venoms, 15 Rangers and some characters. I had nothing good to shoot at, even when my Synaptic Obliterator got through his 5+ invul on his Venoms, if it was just one wound he had a pretty good chance of making his FNP save on it. I got first turn and destroyed 3 Venoms, my opponent destroyed a Construct turn 1. Bad matchup, that list was built to beat this list. I don't think there are any Knight lists that can deal with that many haywire cannons + Doom. I'm not sure about the Construct, it's so powerful in the right circumstances and yet so fragile in a competetive setting.
Did you buy and assemble two of them already or are you proxying them with stalkers?
I don't own any Serapteks yet, I think I'm going to buy one for my next birthday, Stalkers are way too small, it'd be pretty cheesy to proxy with those. I played a game with the first list where I didn't forget my Flayed Ones and I even cheated and brought a unit of Tomb Blades with particle beamers I thought were in my list, neither of those things stopped me from getting stomped by an Ork list with 18 mek gunz and 30 Lootas. I went first and killed 15 Gretchin and 12 Shoota Boyz. He killed my Construct. I Killed 12 Lootas and 30 Gretchin and failed my Flayed One charge. He regenerated 12 Boyz, killed 20 Flayed Ones and two Destroyer Lords, I didn't use Ressurection Protocols to save my Destroyer Lord with the Nanoscarab Casket mostly because I forgot to, but I'm still unsure if you can actually do it after failing with the Casket. I surrendered at this point.
One is almost definitely fine for casual and I don't think they're competetively viable, they're not tough enough for their pts, their mobility and damage output don't quite make up for their lack of 3++ that Knights get up to, nor the lack of good supporting units. Taking multiple in a casual game is kind of a dick move because of the nature of how fast games can snowball if your opponent can't kill one fast enough, it's not neccessarily tournament viable and there are probably plenty of lists that can deal with it, but against the ones that can't the games won't be fun. I still think Flayed Ones suck, provided you aren't a god at making your charges turn 2, much the same as with the Seraptek, you can put as many attacks on a melee unit as you want, but if it never gets in its attack characteristic is effectively 0. I ran VoD on my Overlord which I didn't use, so fail in hindsight, I thought my opponent might have gone to attack me with his Shoota Boyz, but they just screened for his shooting units along with his Gretchin. I had the Crimson Haze WL trait and Casket on one D-Lord, that one never got to attack. Blood Scythe on the other one, which he used once to kill an extra Shoota Boy.
I won an ITC match against AM Tallarn with the same list going second, I managed to get full VPs for the first three turns before my opponent surrendered at the bottom of his fourth turn. I went second and lost two units of Scarabs, which felt very incredible playing against AM. The Construct killed 3 Leman Russes, did 6 damage to another one and killed a Salamander Scout Tank, a Hydra, a Lord Commissar and a Veteran on turn one and two combined before dying turn 3, my opponent did go forwards with his tanks though, I might have failed my charge if that hadn't happened. My two Destroyer Lords did a good amount of damage and my opponent had too few weapons left to kill them by the time he had finished getting rid of the Construct, I only had the Casket on my WL this game and no other relics, Veil of Darkness in case of melee armies and nothing on the second Destroyer Lord is probably the best choice. I fought two extra times with my Construct so that was 6 CP, 1 CP to fight at top bracket on turn 2, running it without a Battalion would mean signifigantly less damage, although I will mention that I did 30 damage to three vehicles, so if you were able to get into two vehicles at a time instead of fighting one, consolidating, then fighting again to pile in I could have done the same damage without spending the 6 CP to fight twice more. I forgot my Flayed Ones again, I'll remember them and make their charge for them some day I'm sure, I might play some penitence games until I learn how to deep strike.
*snip* I didn't use Ressurection Protocols to save my Destroyer Lord with the Nanoscarab Casket mostly because I forgot to, but I'm still unsure if you can actually do it after failing with the Casket.*snip*
You can. One is a Relic, and the other is a Stratagem, and they're not an either-or.
Casket - The first time the bearer is slain, roll a D6. On a 4+, set the bearer up again at the end of the phase...
Resurrection Protocols - Use this Stratagem when a Necrons Character from your army ... is slain. At the end of that phase, roll a D6. On a 4+, set that character up again...
Basically when a character dies, you pick one to use (Casket if available). If that fails, you then play Resurrection Protocols.
The difference is when the Casket procs, your opponent will know immediately if your Destroyer Lord will get back up or not. With Resurrection Protocols, neither of you will know until the end of the phase.
EDIT - I'm an idiot, scratch this last point that I made but deleted because I'm dumb.
DV8 wrote: What's interesting is that if the Destroyer Lord was slain in a phase other than the Assault phase, you can spend a CP to reroll the Casket 4+, and if you fail, you can still spend a CP to reroll the Protocols 4+, assuming you fail that as well.
How so? If he's slain in the Shooting phase you can still only use the re-roll stratagem once that phase on the Casket and if you then fail that re-roll and also your Res 4+ you're out of luck, it's at the end of the Shooting phase, not at the start of the next phase.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: That's why he's still one of our best choices and still isn't THAT amazing. Ghetto Celestine gets a lot of tournament use for a reason.
Yeah, compared to the other beat stick choices, he's pretty lackluster. He's nowhere near as good as a warboss, and that's cheaper.
DV8 wrote: What's interesting is that if the Destroyer Lord was slain in a phase other than the Assault phase, you can spend a CP to reroll the Casket 4+, and if you fail, you can still spend a CP to reroll the Protocols 4+, assuming you fail that as well.
How so? If he's slain in the Shooting phase you can still only use the re-roll stratagem once that phase on the Casket and if you then fail that re-roll and also your Res 4+ you're out of luck, it's at the end of the Shooting phase, not at the start of the next phase.
You are correct..for some reason I got it in my head that the Resurrection Protocols procced at the end of the turn. Hurrdurr.
Hey gang, I have a charity event next month, wanted some thoughts on list composition. It's a doubles tournament, my partner is playing a kult of speed. 1000 points per player, and we share CP. I'm not too terribly flexible on my models, but I have a little room to make changes. Just know that I fought the urge to use the Triarch Stalker (such a cool model, I hate that it sits on the shelf.
Inquisitor Lord Bane wrote: Hey gang, I have a charity event next month, wanted some thoughts on list composition. It's a doubles tournament, my partner is playing a kult of speed. 1000 points per player, and we share CP. I'm not too terribly flexible on my models, but I have a little room to make changes. Just know that I fought the urge to use the Triarch Stalker (such a cool model, I hate that it sits on the shelf.
I'd swap the Gauss Immortals to Tesla Immortals. If your opponent is gonna be going full-bore into the enemy, you'd make an excellent gunline to soften them up for him.
Maybe even drop the scarabs and Praetorians, go 2nd DDA, and max out the immortal squads to 10.
Alternatively, you COULD leave one squad as gauss, put the other as tesla, and teleport them with VoD into cover/rapid fire range. (This is best done with Mephrit for AP-3 Gauss Blasters, but ymmv)
Hope it helps!
I'd at least get rid of the scarabs, and max out your immortals if that is not possible. Nephrekh seems a fine choice for Dynasty, and VoD is an awesome relic.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Question for anyone running the Seraptek Heavy Construct.
In your games, has the Synaptic Obliterators/Transdimensional Projector Combo proven to be superior as the math predicted, or have you seen otherwise?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Question for anyone running the Seraptek Heavy Construct.
In your games, has the Synaptic Obliterators/Transdimensional Projector Combo proven to be superior as the math predicted, or have you seen otherwise?
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: According to our source in this forum „point drops“...i guess well get leaks with Warhammer World...
On another note: I dont think only point drops will help necrons...it will probably lead to more destroyer spam plus wraiths...
Also point drops could mean gak for us if other armies get also point drops and all in all a better update...
This is what makes CA2018 so exciting for me! It will really show if GW is listening or if they dont care
I don't think everyone is getting points drops, just the other weaker armies i.e. marines, grey knights. Pts drops will help a bit, but yeah we need some rules changes/overhauls. I actually don't mind RP as it is, but the surrounding support for it needs to be better. Stratagem for getting a dead squad back and Res Orbs can be popped at any time would go a long way.
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: According to our source in this forum „point drops“...i guess well get leaks with Warhammer World...
On another note: I dont think only point drops will help necrons...it will probably lead to more destroyer spam plus wraiths...
Also point drops could mean gak for us if other armies get also point drops and all in all a better update...
This is what makes CA2018 so exciting for me! It will really show if GW is listening or if they dont care
I don't think everyone is getting points drops, just the other weaker armies i.e. marines, grey knights. Pts drops will help a bit, but yeah we need some rules changes/overhauls. I actually don't mind RP as it is, but the surrounding support for it needs to be better. Stratagem for getting a dead squad back and Res Orbs can be popped at any time would go a long way.
Beyond that, we just need lots of little tweaks.
I mean, it’s obvious that GW care—they’re out to sell product after all.
I think the Pylon point increase last year was meant to help the IK release this year by reducing access to suitable counter measures, for example. So they’re clearly aware of the meta impac of their decisions.
I think it’s difficult, however, for them to understand what would balance Necrons if they don’t have an obvious in-house SME?
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: According to our source in this forum „point drops“...i guess well get leaks with Warhammer World...
On another note: I dont think only point drops will help necrons...it will probably lead to more destroyer spam plus wraiths...
Also point drops could mean gak for us if other armies get also point drops and all in all a better update...
This is what makes CA2018 so exciting for me! It will really show if GW is listening or if they dont care
I don't think everyone is getting points drops, just the other weaker armies i.e. marines, grey knights. Pts drops will help a bit, but yeah we need some rules changes/overhauls. I actually don't mind RP as it is, but the surrounding support for it needs to be better. Stratagem for getting a dead squad back and Res Orbs can be popped at any time would go a long way.
Beyond that, we just need lots of little tweaks.
I mean, it’s obvious that GW care—they’re out to sell product after all.
I think the Pylon point increase last year was meant to help the IK release this year by reducing access to suitable counter measures, for example. So they’re clearly aware of the meta impac of their decisions.
I think it’s difficult, however, for them to understand what would balance Necrons if they don’t have an obvious in-house SME?
Well thats a different kind of „care“...they care for their sales yes...so Im right with my opinion that they DONT care about the (specifically) necron fan/player base as they dont buy the new shiny stuff...With this kind of reasoning they will nerf necrons even further to ensure you buy a new army
Would they though? Buy a new army I mean? Hope not.
GW will never be as eager as the fan base to find balancing issues. Their motivation only ever stretches to keep sales going, it's not economical to do more.
They have the power though, and wield it, to change rules to stear sales.
Nobody buys tomb blades? Put them in the Decurion. (7th ed)
torblind wrote: Would they though? Buy a new army I mean? Hope not.
GW will never be as eager as the fan base to find balancing issues. Their motivation only ever stretches to keep sales going, it's not economical to do more.
They have the power though, and wield it, to change rules to stear sales.
Nobody buys tomb blades? Put them in the Decurion. (7th ed)
But now that 7th ed is over and people probably bought Crons (me included) they probably change the focus to a different army and like that necrons suffer...meaning they dont care about necrons IN 8th ed. at least (or for now)
Question for anyone running the Seraptek Heavy Construct.
In your games, has the Synaptic Obliterators/Transdimensional Projector Combo proven to be superior as the math predicted to the Singularity Generators?, or have you seen otherwise?
p5freak wrote: You cant make attacks with the other profile because CH doesnt generate attacks.
Crimson haze
Each time you roll an unmodified hit roll of 6 in the Fight phase for a model in a friendly NOVOKH unit that is within 6" of your Warlord, you can make one additional hit roll for that model with the same weapon against the same target. These additional hit rolls cannot themselves generate any further hit rolls.
Okay so identical with goffs then. No 3 attacks with those indeed.
Hmm, so I see the context for hit rolls vs attacks. The way I'm reading it is like so:
Case 1: Swing with the 3-for-1 profile for 18 hit rolls, you can then use the additional hit rolls using the flat 6 profile.
Case 2: Swing with the 3-for-1 profile for 18 hit rolls, you can use the 3-for-1 profile again but since it's not considered a full 'attack', you only gives 1 hit roll for each 6.
Case 3: Swing with the flat 6 profile, you can use the additional hits rolls to swing with the 3-for-1 profile, but since it's not considered a full 'attack', you only get 1 hit roll for each 6.
Case 4: Swing with the flat 6 profile, you can then use the additional hit rolls to swing using the flat 6 profile.
So cases 2 and 3 are neutured, but cases 1 and 4 are still strong.
Inquisitor Lord Bane wrote: Hey gang, I have a charity event next month, wanted some thoughts on list composition. It's a doubles tournament, my partner is playing a kult of speed. 1000 points per player, and we share CP. I'm not too terribly flexible on my models, but I have a little room to make changes. Just know that I fought the urge to use the Triarch Stalker (such a cool model, I hate that it sits on the shelf.
I'd swap the Gauss Immortals to Tesla Immortals. If your opponent is gonna be going full-bore into the enemy, you'd make an excellent gunline to soften them up for him.
Maybe even drop the scarabs and Praetorians, go 2nd DDA, and max out the immortal squads to 10.
Alternatively, you COULD leave one squad as gauss, put the other as tesla, and teleport them with VoD into cover/rapid fire range. (This is best done with Mephrit for AP-3 Gauss Blasters, but ymmv)
I would agree with one squad gauss and one squad tesla. Though I love the tesla more, ork boyz infantry has some issues with AP, outside of nobs with powerklaws and some of the more costly weapons. The extra AP shooting from gauss would compliment this weakness, and your team would be better prepared for all comers.
Also love the extra DDA - they are so good - though there may be some strain fitting two in a 1k list without sacrificing too much else. Maybe coordinate with your teammate and see whether it's necessary or not.
p5freak wrote: You cant make attacks with the other profile because CH doesnt generate attacks.
Crimson haze
Each time you roll an unmodified hit roll of 6 in the Fight phase for a model in a friendly NOVOKH unit that is within 6" of your Warlord, you can make one additional hit roll for that model with the same weapon against the same target. These additional hit rolls cannot themselves generate any further hit rolls.
Okay so identical with goffs then. No 3 attacks with those indeed.
Hmm, so I see the context for hit rolls vs attacks. The way I'm reading it is like so:
Case 1: Swing with the 3-for-1 profile for 18 hit rolls, you can then use the additional hit rolls using the flat 6 profile.
Case 2: Swing with the 3-for-1 profile for 18 hit rolls, you can use the 3-for-1 profile again but since it's not considered a full 'attack', you only gives 1 hit roll for each 6.
Case 3: Swing with the flat 6 profile, you can use the additional hits rolls to swing with the 3-for-1 profile, but since it's not considered a full 'attack', you only get 1 hit roll for each 6.
Case 4: Swing with the flat 6 profile, you can then use the additional hit rolls to swing using the flat 6 profile.
So cases 2 and 3 are neutured, but cases 1 and 4 are still strong.
Don't know what world case 3 happens in, it might be an option if you're taking the optimistic interpretation but I don't think there is any arguement that you would be forced to make additional attacks with the weaker profile. Case 2/4 is the conservative reading and doesn't ignore any of the text like the optimistic reading does. With the optimistic reading of making 18 attacks weaker attack and 4 bonus regular attacks you're ignoring the fact that it says "when you attack with this weapon" and Crimson Haze providing additional hit rolls rather than new separate attacks.
iGuy91 wrote: In your games, has the Synaptic Obliterators/Transdimensional Projector Combo proven to be superior as the math predicted, or have you seen otherwise?
The Obliterators have been performing very poorly in many of the games in which I've used it. Between people making 5+ invulnerable saves, having a 6+ FNP, rolling 1s to wound etc. etc it often falls just short. Doing 6 damage to a 12W tank or 5 to a 6 W Venom is almost useless if you can't follow it up. I've played several games where it did nothing on T1, but I don't think I would have had the games where I one-shot things as often if I'd gone with the basic option. The Obliterator is best against multi-Knight lists and lists with normal vehicles (Rhinos, Land Raiders, Leman Russes) the other option is better against things with an invul save and/or a T<8, so things like the 3++ Castellan the Obliterator is just going to get saved, you're getting 2,7 hits, 2,2 wounds, maybe one failed save but then your opponent just CP re-rolls, against Venoms you just want weight of dice to avoid your opponent saving themselves with a lucky roll.
I won a game against a Grey Knights player with a Land Raider going second using my Pylon/triple Night Scythe list. He brought a list that wasn't competetive, technically I did as well. It just so happens that his list was the worst counter to mine possible. I went second, he got slaughtered. I'm not sure why I had shadowlooms on my TBs, with the Pylon in my list they didn't benefit at all.
I lost a game against SW going second with my Supreme Novokh Construct Neph Bat list, I forgot MWBD T1 and my Flayed Ones entirely again... I'm going to get a chalkboard and write down to remember to DS my FOs 100 times. Construct did okay, but some good damage rolls cut its rampage short. Destroyer Lords were bad. With average rolls and an extra squad of 20 FOs the game would've been mine. Maube I'll place the FOs on the board and get Veil of Darkness on my WL to do a T1 deep strike.
I won a game against CSM going second with the same list. My opponent whiffed with his Obliterators into my Construct and charged it with a DP, Ahriman and his Chaos Lord. Construct lost 4 wounds, ate 5 CP, removed those 3 characters and made my opponent surrender. Destroyer Lord took focus off the Construct and lived with his relic, +1 for not being useless. The other Destroyer Lord did a couple of wounds to my WL because he was hacked by a Tzeentch spell, he's clamouring to be removed from my list at this point, the only good thing was how useless he was even at betraying me, he wasn't even able to kill my WL so my opponent's DP had to deal the final wounds to get my WL to trigger his Casket.
Aenarel wrote: First leaks from French Wargame Studio, the guy is pretty much always spot on when he reveals things (since he gets it directly from GW) so you can probably take the following for granted:
- Land Speeder to 50 points.
- Chapter Approved for the 15 of December (approximately)
-Crisis suits a little over 30 pts
- Not much nerfs and mostly ups.
- Named characters cost a lot less, to the point that they may become auto-includes. Castellan Crow is now 80 points and Trajann droped by 75 pts for example.
- Codex SoB release for oct/nov 2019
- Farsight to 125pts
- Eldrad is 15 points cheaper
- +3pts on shining spears
- +60/70 pts for the Necron super heavy (more than likely the Tesseract Vault)
- No change for Abaddon
- Chos cultists to 5pts
- Deathwatch (and more generally all space marines) droped by 5-10%
- Draigo << 200pts
- Intercessor had a very small points drop.
-Warden Custodes' cost is now closer to their troops, the terminators also got a reduction.
- Almost no nerfs for the IK (nothing on the small ones, a bit on the big ones).
What do you guys think about the vault going up and that IK got almost no nerfs?? Looks really stupid to me. I hope this isnt true
Aenarel wrote: First leaks from French Wargame Studio, the guy is pretty much always spot on when he reveals things (since he gets it directly from GW) so you can probably take the following for granted:
- Land Speeder to 50 points.
- Chapter Approved for the 15 of December (approximately)
-Crisis suits a little over 30 pts
- Not much nerfs and mostly ups.
- Named characters cost a lot less, to the point that they may become auto-includes. Castellan Crow is now 80 points and Trajann droped by 75 pts for example.
- Codex SoB release for oct/nov 2019
- Farsight to 125pts
- Eldrad is 15 points cheaper
- +3pts on shining spears
- +60/70 pts for the Necron super heavy (more than likely the Tesseract Vault)
- No change for Abaddon
- Chos cultists to 5pts
- Deathwatch (and more generally all space marines) droped by 5-10%
- Draigo << 200pts
- Intercessor had a very small points drop.
-Warden Custodes' cost is now closer to their troops, the terminators also got a reduction.
- Almost no nerfs for the IK (nothing on the small ones, a bit on the big ones).
What do you guys think about the vault going up and that IK got almost no nerfs?? Looks really stupid to me. I hope this isnt true
"Necron players have found a list that randomly takes games off other top lists. What should we do?"
"Nerf it since it's clearly OP"
In all seriousness, if they address the rest of the units in the codex, I'm not too worried about it.
I mean what would even justify a 70(!) points increase. Why not sth like 20 points and go from there? Otherwise one could justify a 200 pt decrease on the monolith
Biasn wrote: I mean what would even justify a 70(!) points increase. Why not sth like 20 points and go from there? Otherwise one could justify a 200 pt decrease on the monolith
Can you believe it? one Vault costs 566!!!!!! points if this is true
Lmao. I knew I was wise not to follow that Vault list trend!
That being said, no points drops at all? Ooof. Thats disappointing. I was hoping to at least get a point or so off our infantry, and a few points off the HQs.
We're getting into a cycle of MOBA-like patch updates where you just sit and wait, hoping that your favorite faction/character is getting buffed this patch...
Of course, the difference is that you don't spend hundreds of dollars on your favorite character in a MOBA.
Arachnofiend wrote: We're getting into a cycle of MOBA-like patch updates where you just sit and wait, hoping that your favorite faction/character is getting buffed this patch...
Of course, the difference is that you don't spend hundreds of dollars on your favorite character in a MOBA.
Arachnofiend wrote: We're getting into a cycle of MOBA-like patch updates where you just sit and wait, hoping that your favorite faction/character is getting buffed this patch...
Of course, the difference is that you don't spend hundreds of dollars on your favorite character in a MOBA.
Make Anti-Mage great again.
I'm OK with the vault going up, if it means everything else went down. If they just Nerf the Vault and Destroyers, and give us a few token points drops, I'm going to be very angry.
I don't think we will see any real major point drops. From the last CA and the FAQ's major point changes have been in increasing not decreasing. That has been GW's MO so I realistically think we will get a one point drop on about 3 units and then the 30+ point increase on the Vault.
Pyrothem wrote: I don't think we will see any real major point drops. From the last CA and the FAQ's major point changes have been in increasing not decreasing. That has been GW's MO so I realistically think we will get a one point drop on about 3 units and then the 30+ point increase on the Vault.
Everyone knew crisis suits needed to be buffed before last CA, and they didn't get it until this one. Might end up being the same for crons this time around.
Pyrothem wrote: I don't think we will see any real major point drops. From the last CA and the FAQ's major point changes have been in increasing not decreasing. That has been GW's MO so I realistically think we will get a one point drop on about 3 units and then the 30+ point increase on the Vault.
Pyrothem wrote: I don't think we will see any real major point drops. From the last CA and the FAQ's major point changes have been in increasing not decreasing. That has been GW's MO so I realistically think we will get a one point drop on about 3 units and then the 30+ point increase on the Vault.
From the leaks there are far more points drops than bumps. It's just that they've all been for other factions, particularly Space Marines (though Tau are getting a lot of adjustments on their weaker units too).
Pyrothem wrote: I don't think we will see any real major point drops. From the last CA and the FAQ's major point changes have been in increasing not decreasing. That has been GW's MO so I realistically think we will get a one point drop on about 3 units and then the 30+ point increase on the Vault.
From the leaks there are far more points drops than bumps. It's just that they've all been for other factions, particularly Space Marines (though Tau are getting a lot of adjustments on their weaker units too).
To be fair, we still haven't seen our page. There might be drops, and earlier in the thread there was someone who said there will be.
Yeah, I didn't mean to imply I don't think we'll get any adjustments. I'd be pretty surprised if we didn't at least see equivalent price drops to keep "on par" with our equivalent Marines.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: I suspect that our costs might end up the same as Killteam , points cost. Deathmarks, Immortals and Flayed Ones are a little cheaper, iirc.
I would be very surprised, and delighted, if flayed ones got kill team costs since that's like a 7ppm drop
CthuluIsSpy wrote: I suspect that our costs might end up the same as Killteam , points cost. Deathmarks, Immortals and Flayed Ones are a little cheaper, iirc.
I would be very surprised, and delighted, if flayed ones got kill team costs since that's like a 7ppm drop
They should really be that cheap. Flayed ones are not 17 point models. Sure, they can deep strike, have that leadership debuff and get rerolls, but they are still Armor 4+ with no armor pen, and no bonus to their charges. If they don't make their charge after arriving they will die, and even if they do get the charge they might not get a kill.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Flayed Ones aren't terrible for the math. They just can't GET anywhere to fight.
Yep, which is why 17 points isn't right for them. If they can't perform their job reliably, then they shouldn't pay a premium. Its why orks are so cheap; because they tend to die before getting in.
cole1114 wrote: Everyone knew crisis suits needed to be buffed before last CA, and they didn't get it until this one. Might end up being the same for crons this time around.
I don't know, They've had a long time to pull data about Necrons, so I have hope.
I also remember several rumors back in the day of people speaking with staff at the events, mentioning that Necrons would get some serious love in CA.
Pyrothem wrote: They also said that Necrons would get the biggest change from index to codex... what really changed?
Wraiths up to 2 damage and up in points?
While your hyperbole is great and all, there were a lot of changes from the Index to the codex. Dynasties, stratagems, artifacts. Several units got significant buffs like destroyers and the DD Ark, C'tan, the Vault, etc..etc.. I'm not going to go through every single change, but yes, the changes were significant.
That being said, they clearly failed when it came to points costs for many units. If we go by what they said, this has been recognized and we should get some appropriate drops to many of our units. I am hopeful at least.
Had a véry short game against a Raven guard gunline of hellblasters, lasdevs and predators.
I won't go into my list in full detail but two things:
Quantum Shielding is just so amazing when your opponent has no answer to it.
When the Deceiver rolls well (going first, roll a 3 for Grand Illusion).... hoooly gak. 40x Warriors and a Cryptek, followed by an Overlord who Veil'd up 10 Tesla Immortals. (Mephrit btw)
Killed 10 Hellblasters, 8 Devastators and plucked the odd scout here and there. The two DDA's made mincemeat of a Predator. My opponent conceded at the start of his turn....
