Jaxmeister wrote: My little gaming group bought between us 14 boxed sets of LI plus multiple other titans, Rhinos etc. Guess how many damaged components we had? Zero, nil, nada.
Ah yes, the "I didn't have a problem, so therefore there is no problem" argument.
Box was poorly packed, nothing much more to it than that.
If you try to save a few bucks using an unlicensed trader then don't blame gw for your mistake.
Or a genuine trade partner of GW?
Stuff probably got damaged in postage because it was packaged poorly, and if I'd bought direct from GW then they would have been using the same shipping services as everyone else.
I dunno if GW still in house has courier services for their own stores, they used to, so maybe if you bought from a brick and mortar store not far from the distribution centre it got handled better? I dunno, in any case, the poor packing is to blame here.
And really it's annoying to preorder a thing and have it arrive damaged, if someone didn't want it NOW then they probably wouldn't have bothered preordering it, so having to open the box to broken stuff and then stop, contact GW/the store/whatever and wait to figure out the procedure, it's pretty annoying at the best of times. They just should have packed the stuff better.
It depends on how you build. If you want lots of infantry or "special" infantry, you will pay out the ass.
If you stock up your list with Min/Max gak like huge tanks, titans, and flyers it would definitely cost less.
$$ for points, not too hard to figure out what's going to cost more money.
It's same across all their systems.....
Also, we haven't even begun(!) to get into what *actual* armies will cost when all the other stuff they haven't drip fed us yet like Spartans, Drop Pods, Fellblades, Glaives, etc..
SU-152 wrote: So, the trolls that kept saying LI was insanely expensive are gone?
I'm not aware of any disinformation in that regard. The boxes cost exactly what the majority expected and that WD list costs what that influencer said it would cost. We always knew the cost was for a skew list that used small portions of a lot of boxes. If you're happy to only field the cheapest legal force you can obtain second hand that's great, but that's not actually the norm IMHO. People who want to do something interesting with their lists will be paying those WD list prices.
SU-152 wrote: So, the trolls that kept saying LI was insanely expensive are gone?
Depends on how you look at it. Paying GW retail......This game is very expensive. $5 per Rhino? you have to be out of your mind!
I find the game quite inexpensive though because I can print most of it up super cheap. At regular GW scale (Whatever that is this week 28-32mm) its hard to find free STLs that would pass as actual GW minis, that's not so much of a problem at this scale. Hell, I can print stuff up faster than GW can release it.
That's fine though because I know GW is going to soak me for the rules, $40 for a misprinted deck of cards that barely cover any formations.......when you can find them anyway? I used to think a pack of magic cards was expensive. Can't wait to see how little the first expansion book even covers. GW is lucky its easier to find free STLs than it is free rule books and cards.
I bought the box, I want to support the game, I may buy some things here and there, but GW prices are ridiculous. Epic used to be the CHEAP game.
Price is subjective. If you have lots of disposable income, 200 bucks for a starter set is not much.
If you're a broke college student working min wage at a restaurant, 200 bucks is a month's worth of pay and that's only if you eat ramen for the latter half.
Cries of "it's too expensive" fall on deaf ears to those with means, and rally those without, and do little else. It's up to each individual. Ultimately, if you don't like the price or can't afford it, don't buy it. GW aint forcing anything on you.
Can't afford a BMW? Guess you'll have to get a different sort of car. Screeching "BMW is too expensive!!" does nothing for the conversation.
Either way, GW sold out of their allocations in most places, and likely will continue to do so, so cries of "The starter set is too expensive!" could really not be more useless. Who are you trying to convince? The people that were grown adults and spent the 200-ish dollars regardless? I just do not understand where the conversation goes from here.
Just gotta get through the holidays and I'm sure we'll see more of the stuff start to filter in. No clue how fast, since it's likely that LI releases will have to compete with a lot of other things, but we'll see how it goes.
Either way, GW sold out of their allocations in most places, and likely will continue to do so, so cries of "The starter set is too expensive!" could really not be more useless. Who are you trying to convince? The people that were grown adults and spent the 200-ish dollars regardless? I just do not understand where the conversation goes from here.
no one claimed that the starter set is too expensive
most complains are about the layout of the sets and the price, like no stand alone Terminators or the 2 per box when the max force is 3 as well as the supplement with essential units
that you can go cheap if you buy just the core box and trade is the same like with 40k, but most people want something else than just the rather boring starter set force and this is what makes the game expensive
Still no seperate Predators, Sicarans, Leman Russ and Malcadors releases.
This would it also make easier for others to get a Core Box.
drbored wrote:Yeah, we'll get them soon though.
Just gotta get through the holidays and I'm sure we'll see more of the stuff start to filter in. No clue how fast, since it's likely that LI releases will have to compete with a lot of other things, but we'll see how it goes.
We have 4 preorder dates in January. According to rumours over on TGA two will be taken up by the rest of the Flesh Eater Courts and The Old World and another one will likely be the rumoured Dark Angels boxset. So only one more slot open and I really hope it will be the rest of the LI wave 1 stuff.
There is still quite a lot missing from what should have been close to the inital preorder already.
We are still missing 5 AT kits in the old Warhound versions, Dire Wolves, the Warbringer and the two Warmasters.
4 AI kits in the last three SM flyers and the Thunderbolts for SA.
3 terrain kits with the Civitas buildings and spires and the manufactorum.
The two support boxes for LI which should be coming with this wave as they already have rules in the box.
Probably also the two Knights/Titans discount bundles.
And then you have individual sets for the Malcador, Leman Russ, Predators, Sicarans and the new Warhounds.
That would be 21 boxes which is quite a lot for a single weekend so I'm not sure we'll get everything at once.
Well we have seen what comes up to 13th. 2 weeks left for january for li.
On a positive note yesterday was no new models so they are recovering the preorder in 2 weeks, in stores 3 weeks from that schedule and means 20.1 is still possible. Nothing was revealed to come to stores on that date.
I need box of sicarans and predators to get 3k force(albeit with 600 pts allies)
Either way, GW sold out of their allocations in most places, and likely will continue to do so, so cries of "The starter set is too expensive!" could really not be more useless. Who are you trying to convince? The people that were grown adults and spent the 200-ish dollars regardless? I just do not understand where the conversation goes from here.
no one claimed that the starter set is too expensive
most complains are about the layout of the sets and the price, like no stand alone Terminators or the 2 per box when the max force is 3 as well as the supplement with essential units
that you can go cheap if you buy just the core box and trade is the same like with 40k, but most people want something else than just the rather boring starter set force and this is what makes the game expensive
At some point I was complaining about the 2 Warhounds being in the starter making it less value since a lot of people already have 2x Warhounds, and even if you don't, Titans are such a large points sink that it's better people get to choose their own Titan instead of getting lumbered with the Warhounds.
The starter would have been better value if they'd dropped the Warhounds and beefed up the armour squadrons to give you full boxes worth of Predators, Leman Russes, etc instead of half boxes.
Also it wouldn't have killed them to throw in a sprue of terrain or some such.
tneva82 wrote: Well we have seen what comes up to 13th. 2 weeks left for january for li.
Thats why I was talking about preorder dates not release dates
We should be getting preorders on the 6th, 13th, 20th and 27th.
And as in my message above three of those four slots are already rumoured to be filled.
That would be 21 boxes which is quite a lot for a single weekend so I'm not sure we'll get everything at once.
The original wave was like 25+ products, although several of those were direct-only so I expect that be the case again. The old warhound kit certainly seems the most likely choice, and they may not want to stock both warmaster variants in stores.
The starter would have been better value if they'd dropped the Warhounds and beefed up the armour squadrons to give you full boxes worth of Predators, Leman Russes, etc instead of half boxes.
Also it wouldn't have killed them to throw in a sprue of terrain or some such.
And then people would complain price of starter too big for tempting people to start.
SU-152 wrote: So, the trolls that kept saying LI was insanely expensive are gone?
AFAIK, we discussed here that one of the first people that did a review/battle report (Angry Joe over at YT) said as much. And he's still saying it, after multiple games and liking the game quite a bit.
Do the Lightnings count as allies, or are they part of the main army (hoping it's the first)? How many points can you field with what you have?
Aircraft do not count as allies, they are a slot in the formation, like any other.
I got 1500+ points. Small LI battle is around 1k points, big around 2k points. So I sit in the middle for now, until Bastion & Artillery detachments arrive.
SU-152 wrote: So, the trolls that kept saying LI was insanely expensive are gone?
I got the main box + box of lightings. Swapped the marines for more SA.
I got a big bunch of infantry, 2 full tank squadrons, 8 Sentinels, 2 Titans, 6 planes, for 180 €.
If you're trying to convince me that you got a great deal, sorry, nah, that still seems quite expensive to me You needed to find someone to trade with in order to maximise the value, and you got 12 tanks that are roughly half the size of an average 40k model, 8 sentinels that are a quarter the size of your average 40k model, 2 titans that if you had any interaction with AT you probably already owned (except with a new hat!), 6 planes that you'll probably only use 3 in a game, and 4 sprues worth of infantry.... 180€ doesn't sound like some massive bargain all considered
I don't know who you are, and I'm not trying to convince anyone.
How much is an army for other GW system?? I have no idea. I just play Epic games.
SU-152 wrote: So, the trolls that kept saying LI was insanely expensive are gone?
I got the main box + box of lightings. Swapped the marines for more SA.
I got a big bunch of infantry, 2 full tank squadrons, 8 Sentinels, 2 Titans, 6 planes, for 180 €.
If you're trying to convince me that you got a great deal, sorry, nah, that still seems quite expensive to me You needed to find someone to trade with in order to maximise the value, and you got 12 tanks that are roughly half the size of an average 40k model, 8 sentinels that are a quarter the size of your average 40k model, 2 titans that if you had any interaction with AT you probably already owned (except with a new hat!), 6 planes that you'll probably only use 3 in a game, and 4 sprues worth of infantry.... 180€ doesn't sound like some massive bargain all considered
Value is relative... I'm printing 16 LRs at the moment (with sponsons, because I like sponsons in my LRs), and the slicer says it will be about 100ml of resin.
I've got plenty of printed LR in my Epic armies.
It's a no go if I want to play at local store (it's almost impossible to find more than 1 or 2 players that play at Epic scale outside a commercial/store game).
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Also it wouldn't have killed them to throw in a sprue of terrain or some such.
well, you can always just not fully assembly the Titans you don't need and scatter the parts on the table.....
thats.... actually not a bad idea, I mean you get some spare carapace bits and spare head parts even if you do assemble them, not to mention spare weapons
SU-152 wrote: Aircraft do not count as allies, they are a slot in the formation, like any other.
I got 1500+ points. Small LI battle is around 1k points, big around 2k points. So I sit in the middle for now, until Bastion & Artillery detachments arrive.
Thanks!
I've got plenty of printed LR in my Epic armies.
It's a no go if I want to play at local store (it's almost impossible to find more than 1 or 2 players that play at Epic scale outside a commercial/store game).
Not really a concern for me, as I don't play at stores, and we've managed to keep playing Epic for the last 20 years somehow ^^. Even if I did, I am the one who convinced the FLGS to have a 3d printing service (arranged with designers), so... ^^
Come to think off...Yeah I think I might join the club. I do have plenty of warhounds as is. I need to double check how many loyals I have aka do I have the 5 I need but if yes I might actually turn those into terrain. Bit expensive terrain piece but adds 40k flavour.
The starter would have been better value if they'd dropped the Warhounds and beefed up the armour squadrons to give you full boxes worth of Predators, Leman Russes, etc instead of half boxes.
Also it wouldn't have killed them to throw in a sprue of terrain or some such.
And then people would complain price of starter too big for tempting people to start.
I'd propose they throw it in for the same price
The LI starter set isn't really great value compared to buying separately when you look at other GW starters. In a $200 starter you get about $265 of plastic (if bought separately) then the rulebook, the world's crappiest counters, and some dice/rulers/templates.
You're basically getting 2x full $50 boxes, 4x half $50 boxes, and the Warhounds, so basically paying full price for infantry and tanks and getting the Warhounds and ancillaries thrown in.
<sarcasm>Phwoah, what a great deal</sarcasm>
The starter isn't something I bought because I thought it was awesome value, it was something I bought because I figure I'd want the rulebook, some tanks and some infantry anyway so I might as well get the Warhounds and an opposition force for demo games thrown in for "free" compared to buying separately.
Compare that to the 40k box, $210 for the box, it's hard to get exact prices because not everything is released and there's some push fit stuff, but even a conservative estimate is roughly $400 of plastic, probably more like $450, the rulebook (in my preferred small form factor!) plus a handbook and a small gaming board.
That's more like 6 or 7 boxes of varying value, plus 3 "characters", plus an $85 box of terrain (actually is it more than $85? The picture on the boxed set looks like it comes with an extra sprue compared to buying the terrain separately?).
The Leviathan box was even better value because for only $40 more you dropped the terrain but got a whole bunch more, but obviously that was limited so not as comparable.
The Age of Sigmar starter set is similarly $185 with in the realm of $400+ of plastic if bought separately and then the books and cards.
The starter would have been better value if they'd dropped the Warhounds and beefed up the armour squadrons to give you full boxes worth of Predators, Leman Russes, etc instead of half boxes.
Also it wouldn't have killed them to throw in a sprue of terrain or some such.
And then people would complain price of starter too big for tempting people to start.
I'd propose they throw it in for the same price .
So let's see. You say they should simultaneously keep the prices, add the models and dont' change discount %...
How on earth you suggest GW does ALL THREE AT ONCE?
Any proposal that doesn't meet all 3 is dead on water.
Well, the Warhounds being a somewhat suboptimal inclusion turned out good for me, found an ebay guy parting out starters and they have Warhounds priced considerably cheaper than the regular AT Warhound kit.
The starter would have been better value if they'd dropped the Warhounds and beefed up the armour squadrons to give you full boxes worth of Predators, Leman Russes, etc instead of half boxes.
Also it wouldn't have killed them to throw in a sprue of terrain or some such.
And then people would complain price of starter too big for tempting people to start.
I'd propose they throw it in for the same price .
So let's see. You say they should simultaneously keep the prices, add the models and dont' change discount %...
How on earth you suggest GW does ALL THREE AT ONCE?
Any proposal that doesn't meet all 3 is dead on water.
I mean, do you really think they'd be losing any money (not earning less, losing) if they did all three?
My AT starter finally arrived. 115€ for 2 Reavers, 2 Warhounds, 2 Cerastus Knights plus the rules and a few cool objective markers was a decent deal methinks. I'll be splitting it all with a mate. All of it can be fielded in a game of LI as well, which is good = even the Cerastus can be taken as a detachment of 1 model
I will turn my attention back to LI once more SKUs arrive. I dont feel like investing too much into the game right now, I have one Astartes infantry box and one Rhino with a Havoc Launcher, I'll get the rest of my 1500 points when everything that's been revealed so far gets released (along with a bunch of fliers which are out of stock everywhere for now anyways..)
lord_blackfang wrote: Well, the Warhounds being a somewhat suboptimal inclusion turned out good for me, found an ebay guy parting out starters and they have Warhounds priced considerably cheaper than the regular AT Warhound kit.
Ha! Same here. I held off at first because of the lack of weapon cards. But once the PDF appeared, it was game on...
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tauist wrote: My AT starter finally arrived. 115€ for 2 Reavers, 2 Warhounds, 2 Cerastus Knights plus the rules and a few cool objective markers was a decent deal methinks. I'll be splitting it all with a mate. All of it can be fielded in a game of LI as well, which is good = even the Cerastus can be taken as a detachment of 1 model
The AT starter is still one of GW's very best starter boxes.
Still no seperate Predators, Sicarans, Leman Russ and Malcadors releases.
This would it also make easier for others to get a Core Box.
drbored wrote:Yeah, we'll get them soon though.
Just gotta get through the holidays and I'm sure we'll see more of the stuff start to filter in. No clue how fast, since it's likely that LI releases will have to compete with a lot of other things, but we'll see how it goes.
We have 4 preorder dates in January. According to rumours over on TGA two will be taken up by the rest of the Flesh Eater Courts and The Old World and another one will likely be the rumoured Dark Angels boxset. So only one more slot open and I really hope it will be the rest of the LI wave 1 stuff.
There is still quite a lot missing from what should have been close to the inital preorder already.
We are still missing 5 AT kits in the old Warhound versions, Dire Wolves, the Warbringer and the two Warmasters.
4 AI kits in the last three SM flyers and the Thunderbolts for SA.
3 terrain kits with the Civitas buildings and spires and the manufactorum.
The two support boxes for LI which should be coming with this wave as they already have rules in the box.
Probably also the two Knights/Titans discount bundles.
And then you have individual sets for the Malcador, Leman Russ, Predators, Sicarans and the new Warhounds.
That would be 21 boxes which is quite a lot for a single weekend so I'm not sure we'll get everything at once.
Good breakdown.
My personal hope is that GW will do with LI what they tend to do with Underworlds and Blood Bowl, which is sneak supplemental things alongside preorders for other game systems. It makes it so they can push out extra boxes of content without having to take up a whole 'slot'.
I could see them putting Predators and Leman Russ boxes out alongside the Flesh Eater Courts release, and then the Sicarans and Malcadors out during another window, spread it out while keeping the hype going.
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leopard wrote: totally agree on the AT starter being excellent, thats an example of doing it right
the only minor let down being the thin card terminals, but even they are better than the card counters in LI
and why oh why doesn't LI have a set of plastic order markers?
Here's another question: How are we supposed to get more order markers? Currently the starter set is the only way to get those tokens, so if you get things a-la-carte, you wont get the tokens you need to give orders to your units... and even then, the starter set has barely enough to handle a full game of LI with enough order tokens to go around.
HOPEFULLY, we do see a separate set of tokens come out, but to be honest that's also why they provide a scannable token sheet in the back of the book, to make your own. There's also dozens of 3d print and alternative acrylic solutions on the tertiary market that are way better and come in an assortment of colors, shapes, and sizes.
Super easy way to make your own tokens? Follow 2nd Ed’s example, and assign a colour to each order. To keep it classic?
Yellow = Fall Back
Green = Advance
Blue = Charge
Red = First Fire.
And because it didn’t exist then, let’s say…..
Purple = March
Then simple get a bunch of bases, and paint the undersides with those colours. Simple, study, easy to produce en masse. And even if you don’t fancy painting writing on to them? Just have a simple rubric for you and your opponent to share, showing which colour represents which order.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Super easy way to make your own tokens? Follow 2nd Ed’s example, and assign a colour to each order. To keep it classic?
Yellow = Fall Back
Green = Advance
Blue = Charge
Red = First Fire.
And because it didn’t exist then, let’s say…..
Purple = March
Then simple get a bunch of bases, and paint the undersides with those colours. Simple, study, easy to produce en masse. And even if you don’t fancy painting writing on to them? Just have a simple rubric for you and your opponent to share, showing which colour represents which order.
Hate to ask here, but i've been struggling trying to figure this out on my own - how do you paint Raven Guard in this scale and make them look... good?
I don't want to just hit everything with a black contrast paint and call it a day, I really want to go for a more black and white high contrast color scheme (see images below for my inspiration), thing is I can't figure out how to paint something like that in this scale quickly or efficiently and still make it look good. Most (all) my experience in this scale is with historicals which mostly get painted in drabs and earth-tones and are much more forgiving to mistakes than what I'm trying to acccomplish here.
Hoping one of you more experienced and skilled painters could give me some advice on how to do something like this in simple straightforward steps that can be replicated by an at-best average to maybe ever so slightly above average painter - I have multiple airbrushes if that helps any.
I'm just at a complete loss as to how to proceed, from what color or type of primer I should use (I'm pretty sure "slapchop" and zenithal basecoats are pretty much useless at this scale so I'll probably skip that to save a step). Was thinking of using white scar from a rattle can as its a nice crisp bright white, but I'm concerned that at this scale the primer will obscure detail, so I think I may have to go for a white airbrush primer coat - maybe proacryl titanium white? To me, white seems like the better choice of primer coat for a scheme like this, as its easier to paint that down to black than to paint black up to white.
But then I dont know how to proceed from there... contrast paints? Apothecary White? Black Templar or Black Legion? Do I do an edge highlight? Can I cheat it with drybrushing? What color.
could probably do "ok" by painting white, well painting light grey and drybrushing white over the whole then, then a thinned coat of black legion, and probably another - this to get a smooth highlight showing through and good application
black templar may work but its better for painting a deep blue/grey than black
then I've found a light, and very light, drybrush in necron compound or some other silver gives a slight weathered highlight
trick is prtobably find some 3d printed cheap models, or ebay rescue stuff to practice on (or sacrifice a Leman Russ or something for the cause, can always clean and repaint to try it
for infantry likely something similar would work depending how much you want white. Black legion covers and applies pretty nicely
Is that not just something simple like black with a single dark grey highlight (storm vermin maybe?) and then Corax shaded with administratum grey and a white scar highlight?
The nice raven freehand and transfers then set it off nicely.
chaos0xomega wrote: Hate to ask here, but i've been struggling trying to figure this out on my own - how do you paint Raven Guard in this scale and make them look... good?
But then I dont know how to proceed from there... contrast paints? Apothecary White? Black Templar or Black Legion? Do I do an edge highlight? Can I cheat it with drybrushing? What color.
Why is drybrushing cheating? It's the perfect technique for this scale. I would drybrush the black base coat (lightly) with a mixture of black and bone. Only hit the raised detail - don't let the flat areas become grey or streaked. Then go back and block in the main panels with black to give it more depth. Add any decals at this stage. Then do another light drybrush with just bone. This will give you a slightly weathered look, rather than the unnatural edged look that GW utilise. You can add rust streaks etc as you like.
The starter would have been better value if they'd dropped the Warhounds and beefed up the armour squadrons to give you full boxes worth of Predators, Leman Russes, etc instead of half boxes.
Also it wouldn't have killed them to throw in a sprue of terrain or some such.
And then people would complain price of starter too big for tempting people to start.
I'd propose they throw it in for the same price .
So let's see. You say they should simultaneously keep the prices, add the models and dont' change discount %...
How on earth you suggest GW does ALL THREE AT ONCE?
Any proposal that doesn't meet all 3 is dead on water.
Well, yeah, you might have missed the rest of my post where I pointed out the LI box only offers about 25% discount on buying the plastic separately compared to 50-55% discount for 40k and AOS boxed sets, so it's hardly out of place to think they could have offered a deeper discount.
Of course, it sold out anyway, but selling out doesn't equate to "good value", something can be terrible value and still sell out.
I noticed while looking at the savings for starter boxes, GW's "specialist" games tend to offer less of a discount than their main games (AoS and 40k), BUT, most of the specialist games are much smaller investment than AoS and 40k, so having a smaller discount isn't as much of a turn off. In that sense, LI is more like AoS or 40k than it is like Necromunda, Blood Bowl, Aeronautica, AT and whatnot due to needing several $50 boxes to make an army versus only needing 1 to 3 boxes for those other games.
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chaos0xomega wrote: I'm just at a complete loss as to how to proceed, from what color or type of primer I should use (I'm pretty sure "slapchop" and zenithal basecoats are pretty much useless at this scale so I'll probably skip that to save a step).
Slapchop works fine at this scale, a lot of Epic models you see around will simply be zenithal prime followed by an ink/contrast/speedpaint/whatever.
But in terms of those models, they don't look anything special, I think you can figure out how they were painted by just zooming in a bit.
What I'm trying to figure out is how to paint black at this scale in a way that still looks good, pops a bit more than if it were 28mm scale, but doesn't take an eternity to paint. That Thunderhawk looks to be a black grey with black crevices and mid grey edge highlighting, which looks okay but screw edge highlighting 8mm models. The tank looks similar but rather than purely edge highlighted they also stippled the grey on the edges to make it look more worn and less clean.
A Black/white segmented scheme huh? I'd make the first basecoats with masking (either masking tape or masking putty cut to shape with a ruler) and two rattlecans or with an airbrush. Due to the small scale, I'd mask the areas before priming with either color, in order to prevent paint layer buildup (you can start with the off white and mask it more loosely, then apply the black with a more tightly defined mask that slightly overlaps the white).
You will probably want an off-white and an off-black for the base colours, and a light grey and a black wash (enamel, acrylic or oil, up to you)
If going with rattlecans, I'd use "fine" primers made specifically for modelling or fine art instead of generic hardware store brands, just to be ensure thin coats. Amsterdam acrylic sprays have nice tones for example:
https://www.amsterdam-acrylics.com/en/acrylic-colors/spray-paint/?productCode=1716P (Oxide Black & either of the Titanium buffs might work well)
I don't think you need to be super careful with spraying LI models, I've rattle canned my 3D printed IG tanks that have finer details than the LI models and they still look fine.
Some of them I intentionally give a heavy coat to try and hide 3D printer lines.
Just build up in a few layers instead of trying to do it all in 1 heavy coat.
drbored wrote: Price is subjective. If you have lots of disposable income, 200 bucks for a starter set is not much.
If you're a broke college student working min wage at a restaurant, 200 bucks is a month's worth of pay and that's only if you eat ramen for the latter half.
Cries of "it's too expensive" fall on deaf ears to those with means, and rally those without, and do little else. It's up to each individual. Ultimately, if you don't like the price or can't afford it, don't buy it. GW aint forcing anything on you.
Can't afford a BMW? Guess you'll have to get a different sort of car. Screeching "BMW is too expensive!!" does nothing for the conversation.
Either way, GW sold out of their allocations in most places, and likely will continue to do so, so cries of "The starter set is too expensive!" could really not be more useless. Who are you trying to convince? The people that were grown adults and spent the 200-ish dollars regardless? I just do not understand where the conversation goes from here.
Peak rich people are the only ones that matter rhetoric.
Hi, I'm rich. GW products are still too expensive even if I can fairly easily afford them.
I mean a community where the only people who can afford to play are rich people is gonna suck considering how much the rich huff their own farts.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I don't think you need to be super careful with spraying LI models, I've rattle canned my 3D printed IG tanks that have finer details than the LI models and they still look fine.
Some of them I intentionally give a heavy coat to try and hide 3D printer lines.
Just build up in a few layers instead of trying to do it all in 1 heavy coat.
Depends on the primer. Chaos black remains a gold standard of priming rarely ever mussing up details. But colored primers can be a bit thick, so you gotta be careful at this scale.
Remember rule one hey Tneva? We are all on the same side here, with our love for Epic minis, there is no need to resort to name-calling.
The product selling out doesn't necessarily indicate the price is OK - you could say this game has had so much coverage and discussion/publicity that it is selling out despite the starter pack not being as good a deal as 40k/AoS equivalents. I think there have been so many YouTube channels really getting excited by the new format, that will really help.
On a side note I reckon the Kratos were removed to help cover the cost of the recall, which would explain the old contents photo, things moving around in the box too much and breaking, and the fact it is slightly less of a good deal /tinfoil hat
I think the box was decent value for people who want to field both SA & Marines, and dont have a problem blowing their Titan allocation to 2 Warhounds. To a player who want Astartes only, and only considers Reavers or bigger for their Titans, notsomuch.
I probably would have went for the box if I could have been sure I could resell the SA & Warhounds at no loss, but since that seemed uncertain, I skipped it. Well that and my dislike for physical Rulebooks made the choice easy
I dont think being poor shuts you out from playing LI. The rules can be REDACTED quite easily and the models can be 3D printed. You either have money or free time for getting by on the lowlow, usually not both
Pacific wrote: Remember rule one hey Tneva? We are all on the same side here, with our love for Epic minis, there is no need to resort to name-calling.
...
On a side note I reckon the Kratos were removed to help cover the cost of the recall, which would explain the old contents photo, things moving around in the box too much and breaking, and the fact it is slightly less of a good deal /tinfoil hat
If that were the case then they'd have needed to reprint the boxes too, which didn't happen. More likely the Kratos was originally planned to be part of the starter then removed before it initially went into production, and they accidently used an old promotonal image that was created to be on the back of the box.
On a side note I reckon the Kratos were removed to help cover the cost of the recall, which would explain the old contents photo, things moving around in the box too much and breaking, and the fact it is slightly less of a good deal /tinfoil hat
Not sure if you're serious, but that would imply that the box was also reprinted, which we have enough evidence to indicate was not the case. Also, we know that the influencers were asked to send back their books, not their boxes - when they eventually released the preview videos after the embargo lifted, all of them had the same exact product that we have, there was no indication that they had been sent replacement boxes that would have removed the Kratos from the back of the box, etc.
It seems more likely the Kratos was par of the internal prototype product and was removed from the contents prior to the product going to production.
Vorian wrote: I think we saw the core box before the delay anyway, unless my memory is playing tricks on me.
We did.
Kratos was never in corebox. Corebox was also never changed. Only thing that was changed was rulebook was printed and content of book was also unchanged. Slight alteration to cover and that's it.
If kratos was there box would been about 25-30e higher.
chaos0xomega wrote: Hate to ask here, but i've been struggling trying to figure this out on my own - how do you paint Raven Guard in this scale and make them look... good?
But then I dont know how to proceed from there... contrast paints? Apothecary White? Black Templar or Black Legion? Do I do an edge highlight? Can I cheat it with drybrushing? What color.
Why is drybrushing cheating? It's the perfect technique for this scale. I would drybrush the black base coat (lightly) with a mixture of black and bone. Only hit the raised detail - don't let the flat areas become grey or streaked. Then go back and block in the main panels with black to give it more depth. Add any decals at this stage. Then do another light drybrush with just bone. This will give you a slightly weathered look, rather than the unnatural edged look that GW utilise. You can add rust streaks etc as you like.
Didn't say it was cheating. In American vernacular to say that you will "cheat it" in this manner means that you are using a process or technique, etc. that isn't quite intended or ideal for the purpose you are using it for but will produce serviceable results. In this case, drybrushing is not specifically an edge highlighting technique, but can be used to achieve an edge highlighting if you are careful in your execution.
I'm not sure that it is a "perfect" technique at this scale though. I can get very good results doing what you suggested at 28mm, I think doing so at 8mm may be more challenging, especially if I'm trying to reproduce a similar scheme with the infantry.
chaos0xomega wrote: I'm just at a complete loss as to how to proceed, from what color or type of primer I should use (I'm pretty sure "slapchop" and zenithal basecoats are pretty much useless at this scale so I'll probably skip that to save a step).
Slapchop works fine at this scale, a lot of Epic models you see around will simply be zenithal prime followed by an ink/contrast/speedpaint/whatever.
I would think a zenithal coat would ovewhelm the minis at this scale - again, mostly thinking in terms of the effect on the infantry here, but even the smaller vehicles don't have enough meat there for a zenithal coat to be anything more than a second basecoat over the majority of the mini. The depth of the panel reliefs on the minis is too low to produce meaningful levels of shading, etc. and theres not enough shape to most of the minis to have areas that will remain shaded out.
I also don't think slapchop works fine at any scale, its not a technique I care for. Zenithal process is great with layering and blending and traditional paint methods. My experience with it with contrast/one-thick-coat paints is that it ruins the flow of your paint (which is an obvious outcome - GW didn't spend so much time developing specialty primers to improve the effects of contrast paint for no reason) and increases the splotchiness and graininess of your finish, as well as washing out your colors. While it gives you good tabletop ready results with a relatively minimal amount of effort, you can skip slapchop and use other techniques to get much better results for little if any more effort, i.e. it sits on the wrong side of the cost/benefit curve or whatever for me. Basically, I've never seen a slapchop mini that makes me think "oh, I really like this, I want to imitate it". I'm sure it has its place, but I don't think small scale miniatures like LI is it. That inherent splotchy graininess at a small scale just serves to disrupt the lines of the sculpt and obscure the details further. Also, from looking around online at other peoples painted LI minis, I think bright, saturated, vibrant colors that pop are key to having an army that will look good on the table (hence why I don't want to go with the more traditional "all-black" raven guard look).
But in terms of those models, they don't look anything special, I think you can figure out how they were painted by just zooming in a bit.
Yeah, I can figure out how these minis were done no problem, and I'm decent enough at painting that I could probably reproduce it fairly closely, its just that it would take me forever to paint an army at this scale doing that, so I'm looking for advice to get comparable results for minimal effort. In my experience, I am a very slow and inefficient painter. What others can accomplish in a couple hours will take me days or weeks to achieve. So I'm looking for some of that wisdom to try to make it easier for myself so I can actually paint all the minis that I will need to paint.
What I'm trying to figure out is how to paint black at this scale in a way that still looks good, pops a bit more than if it were 28mm scale, but doesn't take an eternity to paint. That Thunderhawk looks to be a black grey with black crevices and mid grey edge highlighting, which looks okay but screw edge highlighting 8mm models. The tank looks similar but rather than purely edge highlighted they also stippled the grey on the edges to make it look more worn and less clean.
Yep, blacks seem to be a challenge at this scale. Its already kind of true at 28mm but might be more true at this scale - the best way to paint black is to not use the color black. I've seen a few photos of folks that used 3:1 black contrast (not sure if black templar or black legion) to contrast medium over what seems to usually be either white scar or grey seer that got some pretty good results. I worry though that approach won't work as well with astartes vehicles owing to their flat boxiness. The raised flat panels might require an additional coat of non-contrast paint to block in the area away from the edges, etc.
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tauist wrote: A Black/white segmented scheme huh? I'd make the first basecoats with masking (either masking tape or masking putty cut to shape with a ruler) and two rattlecans or with an airbrush. Due to the small scale, I'd mask the areas before priming with either color, in order to prevent paint layer buildup (you can start with the off white and mask it more loosely, then apply the black with a more tightly defined mask that slightly overlaps the white).
You will probably want an off-white and an off-black for the base colours, and a light grey and a black wash (enamel, acrylic or oil, up to you)
If going with rattlecans, I'd use "fine" primers made specifically for modelling or fine art instead of generic hardware store brands, just to be ensure thin coats. Amsterdam acrylic sprays have nice tones for example:
https://www.amsterdam-acrylics.com/en/acrylic-colors/spray-paint/?productCode=1716P (Oxide Black & either of the Titanium buffs might work well)
The infantry seem too wee and perhaps too delicate for my style of dry brush. So I’m instead going to try a grey base/undercoat, Contrast Black. Then do the right shoulder pad in a dark red, with silvery bits for weapons.
tneva82 wrote: Obviously it's not too expensive though seeing how GW literally can't keep up with demand...
Supply&demand says actually opposite. Prices are too low.
But that's why you aren't running multi billion company and are just random forum complainer
Being "not good value" and "selling out" aren't mutually exclusive ideas. Like, remember when toilet paper had supply issues during covid? It wasn't because toilet paper was suddenly great value
But I don't expect you to know because you're just a random forum white knight
GW have priced out a bunch of people on LI, and a more attractive starter would have gone a ways to draw those people in. Yes, it sold out anyway and obviously pricing a few people out doesn't matter on launch if it sells out on the first day.... but it'll restock, and the success of the game will be down to how many there are to keep playing and keep buying it the on the restock or in however many months when the launch hype has worn off.
Pacific wrote: Remember rule one hey Tneva? We are all on the same side here, with our love for Epic minis, there is no need to resort to name-calling.
...
On a side note I reckon the Kratos were removed to help cover the cost of the recall, which would explain the old contents photo, things moving around in the box too much and breaking, and the fact it is slightly less of a good deal /tinfoil hat
If that were the case then they'd have needed to reprint the boxes too, which didn't happen. More likely the Kratos was originally planned to be part of the starter then removed before it initially went into production, and they accidently used an old promotonal image that was created to be on the back of the box.
Also, where is the name calling?
Just calling one of the main contributors to the community here a random forum complainer. And no attempt at an apology afterwards, and so the comment was intended.
tneva82 wrote: Obviously it's not too expensive though seeing how GW literally can't keep up with demand...
Supply&demand says actually opposite. Prices are too low.
But that's why you aren't running multi billion company and are just random forum complainer
Being "not good value" and "selling out" aren't mutually exclusive ideas. Like, remember when toilet paper had supply issues during covid? It wasn't because toilet paper was suddenly great value
Drawing a direct comparison between necessities and optional hobby products isn't the slam dunk response you think it is.
The infantry seem too wee and perhaps too delicate for my style of dry brush. So I’m instead going to try a grey base/undercoat, Contrast Black. Then do the right shoulder pad in a dark red, with silvery bits for weapons.
I definitely think black is one of the hardest colours to get right at this scale, for the infantry especially so they don't look like tiny little ninjas.. a lot of the detail gets lost with that colour.
I'd be tempted to go a bit off-piste and use more of the accompanying colour in whichever legion - more white for raven guard, more silver or silver/blue for iron hands and more red for Dark Angels - it might not be codex-approved, but you want to be able to see the little guys.
chaos0xomega wrote: I'm just at a complete loss as to how to proceed, from what color or type of primer I should use (I'm pretty sure "slapchop" and zenithal basecoats are pretty much useless at this scale so I'll probably skip that to save a step).
Slapchop works fine at this scale, a lot of Epic models you see around will simply be zenithal prime followed by an ink/contrast/speedpaint/whatever.
I would think a zenithal coat would ovewhelm the minis at this scale - again, mostly thinking in terms of the effect on the infantry here, but even the smaller vehicles don't have enough meat there for a zenithal coat to be anything more than a second basecoat over the majority of the mini. The depth of the panel reliefs on the minis is too low to produce meaningful levels of shading, etc. and theres not enough shape to most of the minis to have areas that will remain shaded out.
Zenithal just gives some gradient. The panel lines will be darker, the undersides of things will be darker, so when you apply something like an ink there'll be more contrast to it.
The depth of the panel lines is not too small to not produce meaningful levels of shading, a light zenithal will definitely leave the panel lines a bit darker, which will help especially with more vibrant models like Imperial Fist, Blood Angels, etc. Doesn't make a big difference on something like Ultramarines, but it still makes enough difference to be worthwhile and it's what I used on my 3D printed Ultramarines.
I also don't think slapchop works fine at any scale, its not a technique I care for. Zenithal process is great with layering and blending and traditional paint methods.
If you want to layer and blend LI miniatures, more power to you, but when I have 200 tiny dudes that need to look good on a tabletop rather than looking good zoomed in so that an 8mm stands 100mm tall on my computer screen... I ain't blending a damned thing on LI models
But even if you want to do a bit of blending on larger models, you can do that with inks or contrasts, apply one layer and then the 2nd layer sweep it to the part of the model you want to be darker. I tried that on some of my Aeronautica models, though admittedly only a couple (like my Eavy Bommer) because they're primarily gaming pieces and couldn't be bothered spending too much time on them.
That inherent splotchy graininess at a small scale just serves to disrupt the lines of the sculpt and obscure the details further.
Nah, that's not the way it works, splotchiness is less prevalent the smaller the details are. These dudes were all zenithal -> contrast -> drybrush and for any distance relevant to wargaming they don't look splotchy to me.
Those Ultras are 8mm scale, these Fists are actually 12mm scale and painted with a speed paint over a zenithal and I think they look fine...
If they look splotchy to you, okay I guess, we all have different standards, but I'm painting my models to look good as an army on the table top, and I'd have to zoom in to much bigger than the models appear in my hand before I see anything that bothers me on either the 8mm Ultras or the 12mm fists.
Also, from looking around online at other peoples painted LI minis, I think bright, saturated, vibrant colors that pop are key to having an army that will look good on the table (hence why I don't want to go with the more traditional "all-black" raven guard look).
I'd agree with poppy models looking good at this scale, that doesn't really preclude the use of contrasts.
I don't think I'd use black contrast at this scale though (except for small details like weapons) as it just doesn't quite look right to me. When I get some free time off work I'm going to try some black schemes where I use grey washes or pigments to make the crevices lighter than the rest of the panel and see if that's a bit punchier at this scale.
For white though, a recipe I liked for my White Scars was to prime white (not zenithal) and then wash with a warmish grey wash/ink/contrast, then drybrush with white again. Fast and pops well for a white. Perhaps for Ravens I'd use a cold grey rather than a warm grey though.
But do whatever you want, if you don't like contrasts you don't have to use them, I just think they save a lot of time at this scale and don't have nearly as many headaches and pitfalls as they do at bigger scales.
Well, yeah, you might have missed the rest of my post where I pointed out the LI box only offers about 25% discount on buying the plastic separately compared to 50-55% discount for 40k and AOS boxed sets, so it's hardly out of place to think they could have offered a deeper discount.
Of course, it sold out anyway, but selling out doesn't equate to "good value", something can be terrible value and still sell out.
I noticed while looking at the savings for starter boxes, GW's "specialist" games tend to offer less of a discount than their main games (AoS and 40k), BUT, most of the specialist games are much smaller investment than AoS and 40k, so having a smaller discount isn't as much of a turn off. In that sense, LI is more like AoS or 40k than it is like Necromunda, Blood Bowl, Aeronautica, AT and whatnot due to needing several $50 boxes to make an army versus only needing 1 to 3 boxes for those other games..
Like I said months ago...I think the game is squarely aimed at vets with plenty of disposable income. Basically Heresy heads and those with nostalgia for the early days of Epic. Interesting that AT seems so much more affordable, but it is what it is.
Regarding the RG painting question, I'd definitely look at Contrast paints or similar products. Pick up some cheap 3D prints somewhere and experiment until you find a process you like.
tneva82 wrote: Obviously it's not too expensive though seeing how GW literally can't keep up with demand...
Supply&demand says actually opposite. Prices are too low.
But that's why you aren't running multi billion company and are just random forum complainer
Being "not good value" and "selling out" aren't mutually exclusive ideas. Like, remember when toilet paper had supply issues during covid? It wasn't because toilet paper was suddenly great value
Drawing a direct comparison between necessities and optional hobby products isn't the slam dunk response you think it is.
If you say so, I wasn't really thinking "slam dunk" when I typed it I was just hoping tneva would be able to figure out that selling out in a moment of panic/hype/low supply/high demand doesn't equate to good value.
I can't really be bothered coming up with more relevant wargaming examples other than like I already pointed out the LI starter only gives about 25% more plastic than buying separately versus the AoS and 40k sets that give 50+% more plastic, and I don't think too many people are extolling the value of LI's individual kits.
If the game sold out because they perfectly matched the number of copies to the number of rabid fans with enough spare money to burn, I don't really see that as a great outcome in the long run. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe LI will restock and be a raging success.
tneva82 wrote: Obviously it's not too expensive though seeing how GW literally can't keep up with demand...
Supply&demand says actually opposite. Prices are too low.
But that's why you aren't running multi billion company and are just random forum complainer
Being "not good value" and "selling out" aren't mutually exclusive ideas. Like, remember when toilet paper had supply issues during covid? It wasn't because toilet paper was suddenly great value
Drawing a direct comparison between necessities and optional hobby products isn't the slam dunk response you think it is.
If you say so, I wasn't really thinking "slam dunk" when I typed it I was just hoping tneva would be able to figure out that selling out in a moment of panic/hype/low supply/high demand doesn't equate to good value.
I can't really be bothered coming up with more relevant wargaming examples other than like I already pointed out the LI starter only gives about 25% more plastic than buying separately versus the AoS and 40k sets that give 50+% more plastic, and I don't think too many people are extolling the value of LI's individual kits.
If the game sold out because they perfectly matched the number of copies to the number of rabid fans with enough spare money to burn, I don't really see that as a great outcome in the long run. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe LI will restock and be a raging success.
160e worth of marines&sa. Then warhound and rulebook. If you think warhound and rulebook cost only 51e combined...
Discount is totally normal for gw starters so anything added would add price to the box. Simple as that.
Not only is this useful for the player, but in-universe serves as a simple visual reference guide for Titans and Aircraft crew to know exactly what friendly assets are where at a glance.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: For my Dark Angels?
The infantry seem too wee and perhaps too delicate for my style of dry brush. So I’m instead going to try a grey base/undercoat, Contrast Black. Then do the right shoulder pad in a dark red, with silvery bits for weapons.
I definitely think black is one of the hardest colours to get right at this scale, for the infantry especially so they don't look like tiny little ninjas.. a lot of the detail gets lost with that colour.
I'd be tempted to go a bit off-piste and use more of the accompanying colour in whichever legion - more white for raven guard, more silver or silver/blue for iron hands and more red for Dark Angels - it might not be codex-approved, but you want to be able to see the little guys.
Hence my high contrast black/white raven guard attempt.
I don't think it as bad for Dark Angels as the other two. The official schemes and color plates for Dark Angels show heavy use of white and red coloration in their schemes, some have almost as much white/red as they do black. Raven Guard and Iron Hands on the other hand are almost always presented as being borderline monocolor, with the whites and silvers in their schemes (respectively) often being dirtied down and muted so as to present as drab greys that almost blend in with the blacks.
Most of the photos and tutorials for Raven Guard (and to a lesser extent Iron Hands) I've found online follow that trend. Lots of people just seem to paint their raven guard black, pick out a few details in dark greys, maybe some red lenses or whatever, and call it a day. Its very boring.
Didn't say I want to layer, in fact my point about zenithal is that it doesn't seem appropriate at this scale because layering is how you get the best results with Zenithal, but would take too damned long to do an army at this scale.
Likewise, didn't say anything against contrast - I'm all for using them if I can. Its the slapchop method I'm against, because it will muddy up and mute the colors instead of making them pop, and it will add the graininess and splotchiness that I don't want to the finish of my models. If you're happy with the results it gives you, more power to you. I would not be satisfied with the way your minis came out, personally. Objectively they look fine, I won't say anything negative against them, they just aren't to my preference personally. The colors are not as bright or as pop-y as I would want them to be, and I can clearly see how the zenithal coat impeded the flow and settling of the contrast layer in a manner that has given it a finish that I don't particularly enjoy. Frankly, my experience with contrast is that you would get basically the same results just using contrast straight from the bottle (or mixed slightly with medium), except the color would be brighter and the finish/gradients/highlighting/shading smoother. I really honestly see no point to slapchop, as it (in my view) gives you worse results but requires more steps.
I will say you almost had me with the Imperial Fists - its not quite the right shade of yellow for me, but the results were really good for a color I have trouble painting, but then I saw that they were 12mm minis and understood why I was so impressed .
I don't think I'd use black contrast at this scale though (except for small details like weapons) as it just doesn't quite look right to me. When I get some free time off work I'm going to try some black schemes where I use grey washes or pigments to make the crevices lighter than the rest of the panel and see if that's a bit punchier at this scale.
Basilicum Grey (I think thats the darkest grey contrast) maybe? Follow up with targeted application of nuln oil into recessed areas?
For white though, a recipe I liked for my White Scars was to prime white (not zenithal) and then wash with a warmish grey wash/ink/contrast, then drybrush with white again. Fast and pops well for a white. Perhaps for Ravens I'd use a cold grey rather than a warm grey though.
I'm currently using a "two stage slapchop", if we can call it that, with my Imperial Fists: white primer, then very thinned down Xpress Pink, drybrush white and then 50/50 Xpress yellow with medium. After that I do a pale yellow highlight:
Spoiler:
(more on my 3d printing thread, in case you want to see closer up examples)
You could probably do something similar with black contrast, maybe starting with grey primer.
Hmm, I'm still reading the grainy slapchop texture/graininess/chalkiness that drives me up the wall on some of those minis, most pronounced on the top of those rhinos and predators (which I think are 3d printed? I can see what looks to be layer lines on them) and on the xiphon (particularly on the nose and wings). I think really just the whole slapchop thing is not for me - the shading and highlighting looks great but I don't like seeing the graininess in the paint finish vs the smoother coat you get with straight contrast.
Maybe instead of starting from white I'll try starting from grey seer, do a preliminary targeted edge highlighting with white (and maybe a targeted light application of nuln oil for shading), and then do contrast over that to try to replicate the benefits of the slapchop method without introducing the textural spotting that results from the preliminary drybrush when doing slapchop. Instead of having to drybrush up to the midtone, you're putting down a smooth midtone with the grey seer, and then highlighting up to white in a manner that doesn't leave behind the graininess that the contrast will pick up, and likewise shading down more smoothly. It might take longer but it might also help avoid the issues I have visually.
Another thing I could try is to start from white, do a "medium/thin" contrast coat, targeted edge highlight white and recess shading with nuln oil, and then do a second "medium/thin" contrast coat over that.
My only other thought is to try the "damp drybrush" (aka the artis opus drybrush method) technique that I've heard about but not actually seen in use. It seems to resolve the issues with chalkiness and might be key to fixing at least one of the issues I have with slapchop. Still won't fix the washed out color issue, but I can probably work around that when it comes to paint black and white lol.
Also, why use pink? Does that give you a warmer undertone to the yellow or something? It looks like it probably helped a bit with making the yellow a bit more vibrant, as the color doesn't look as muted and washed out as what you see when slapchopping with grey. Maybe the trick is to not do monochromatic slapchops but instead complimentary color slapchops? But that might get a bit more time intensive.
If you are wanting clean highlights on vehicles, you are probably best off with edge highlighting with colored pencils. Just line the edge of armor plates with the side of the lead and keep going until it is done or you can't take it anymore. Use something like Lahmian Medium or a matte varnish to seal areas you have already done as it will smudge if you aren't careful. You can use a clay shaper or a detail cotton swab to erase stray marks or just paint over them. If you want to get really fancy, you can get watercolor colored pencils and wet-blend a midtone and then do a lighter highlight on top.
chaos0xomega wrote: Also, why use pink? Does that give you a warmer undertone to the yellow or something? It looks like it probably helped a bit with making the yellow a bit more vibrant, as the color doesn't look as muted and washed out as what you see when slapchopping with grey. Maybe the trick is to not do monochromatic slapchops but instead complimentary color slapchops? But that might get a bit more time intensive.
Yeah, the pink is mainly to give it shadows and a vibrancy to the yellow, and yes, the idea here is to use the transparency of the contrast-y paints in your benefit, using them as a sort of filter.
If you want to avoid the grain, you could try Artis Opus method (which I used, partially) or go directly to the airbrush.
chaos0xomega wrote: Didn't say it was cheating. In American vernacular to say that you will "cheat it" in this manner means that you are using a process or technique, etc. that isn't quite intended or ideal for the purpose you are using it for but will produce serviceable results. In this case, drybrushing is not specifically an edge highlighting technique, but can be used to achieve an edge highlighting if you are careful in your execution.
I'm not sure that it is a "perfect" technique at this scale though. I can get very good results doing what you suggested at 28mm, I think doing so at 8mm may be more challenging, especially if I'm trying to reproduce a similar scheme with the infantry.
The LI vehicle models are ideal for drybrushing - they are small, with a lot of raised detail. Even easier on the infantry. Done properly (in conjunction with some thin washes), drybrushing keeps the layers of paint to a minimum, and will also avoid the lumpiness that can result from other techniques. I wish I could demonstrate this with some photos, but I don't intend to buy any LI models.
This probably should be a separate topic. Now that the models are finally available (sort of), I think a lot of people will be asking similar questions about painting them.
For white though, a recipe I liked for my White Scars was to prime white (not zenithal) and then wash with a warmish grey wash/ink/contrast, then drybrush with white again. Fast and pops well for a white. Perhaps for Ravens I'd use a cold grey rather than a warm grey though.
Got any photos?
Not any good ones, there's this one from my gallery, but my ancient camera phone washes out the whites a lot, it looks a hair darker and more contrasty in real life but the camera brings all the whites closer together and makes them look more like a pure white.
The bases come out splotchy because my technique is to apply too much wash/contrast and then pull the excess down the model onto the base.
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tneva82 wrote: 160e worth of marines&sa. Then warhound and rulebook. If you think warhound and rulebook cost only 51e combined...
I was comparing plastic prices, the other sets come with stuff beyond the plastic too.
And I was looking at US prices, US the boxes are $50 each, and I think the Warhounds were $65, so $200 for the starter that comes with $265 worth of plastic.
I had all the numbers and assumptions in my previous post, maybe if you'd actually read it instead of writing me off as a "random forum complainer" you would be more enlightened. Maybe if you're not going to bother reading someone's posts, just don't reply? It'd save us all some time.
Discount is totally normal for gw starters so anything added would add price to the box. Simple as that.
Except it's demonstrably worse discount compared to AoS and 40k starters...
I think you have to acknowledge that any box that offers a saving is inherently better value than it not existing, even if the savings are lower than some other offerings.
This one is only so divisive because it's really hard to get max value from all of the contents without explicitly splitting it with someone.
Albertorius wrote: I'm currently using a "two stage slapchop", if we can call it that, with my Imperial Fists: white primer, then very thinned down Xpress Pink, drybrush white and then 50/50 Xpress yellow with medium. After that I do a pale yellow highlight:
Spoiler:
(more on my 3d printing thread, in case you want to see closer up examples)
You could probably do something similar with black contrast, maybe starting with grey primer.
Pink, eh, that's interesting. I really like how they came out so if I decide to go with Imperial Fists I might steel that idea, haha.
Maybe instead of an Xpress pink, a pink wash would mean that you wouldn't have to drybrush white (or the drybrush could be lighter) and therefore get away from the graininess a bit? (not that I particularly mind the graininess myself, but offering a suggestion for chaos)
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Dudeface wrote: I think you have to acknowledge that any box that offers a saving is inherently better value than it not existing, even if the savings are lower than some other offerings.
Of course, that's why I bought it myself
But the lack of what I'd personally consider good value I think is going to prevent it being a game that my group picks up.
This one is only so divisive because it's really hard to get max value from all of the contents without explicitly splitting it with someone.
I think it's partly that and partly because it's too close in value to just buying separately, so it doesn't take much to turn the starter into a bad deal (e.g. want an epub rulebook instead of the giant arse tomb and don't care about Warhounds? Not worth getting the starter).
Compared to the HH starter which is tempting because it's basically a ready made army, or the 40k starter where as a Tyranid player it is worth getting for the Tyranids alone even if the Marines just get thrown in the pile of shame.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I was comparing plastic prices, the other sets come with stuff beyond the plastic too.
And I was looking at US prices, US the boxes are $50 each, and I think the Warhounds were $65, so $200 for the starter that comes with $265 worth of plastic.
I had all the numbers and assumptions in my previous post, maybe if you'd actually read it instead of writing me off as a "random forum complainer" you would be more enlightened. Maybe if you're not going to bother reading someone's posts, just don't reply? It'd save us all some time.
I can see numbers for LI but not how you're calculating 40k discounts. Between three tiers of starter sets, combat patrols, and individual releases (not all of which are out yet) it's harder to draw a direct comparison to LI.
Also claiming "only plastic counts!" is a fairly ridiculous way of twisting facts to your advantage here. A discount is still a discount, even if you arbitrarily decide that a $60 rulebook doesn't count for some reason.
Dudeface wrote: I think you have to acknowledge that any box that offers a saving is inherently better value than it not existing, even if the savings are lower than some other offerings.
This one is only so divisive because it's really hard to get max value from all of the contents without explicitly splitting it with someone.
I'd argue this box is much easier to get max value from compared to a 40k or AOS starter. You can't run SM & Tyranid models in the same army, so your options there are to either swap / trade half the models in a 40k starter, or begin collecting two armies. If you do expand either collection then you need to add the cost of at least one codex to go beyond the Combat Patrol rules, while LI includes rules for a wider range of models (such as AI/AT kits) in the box.
Meanwhile in a standard sized 3k LI list you can play up to ~1500pts from the LI starter set at once, with options to swap between the remaining 300pts if you decide to keep all the models. You can't decide to swap out a terminator squad for a psychophage in a 40k Space Marine list.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I was comparing plastic prices, the other sets come with stuff beyond the plastic too.
And I was looking at US prices, US the boxes are $50 each, and I think the Warhounds were $65, so $200 for the starter that comes with $265 worth of plastic.
I had all the numbers and assumptions in my previous post, maybe if you'd actually read it instead of writing me off as a "random forum complainer" you would be more enlightened. Maybe if you're not going to bother reading someone's posts, just don't reply? It'd save us all some time.
I can see numbers for LI but not how you're calculating 40k discounts. Between three tiers of starter sets, combat patrols, and individual releases (not all of which are out yet) it's harder to draw a direct comparison to LI.
I tried to estimate prices where I could which is why I gave more approximate values for 40k rather than exact prices, but I was using the biggest starters for those (you can tell from the prices I mentioned).
The Combat Patrols are a bit more mixed, but from what I can see the crappier Combat Patrols are roughly similar to LI on a per-plastic basis, the better Combat Patrols are quite a bit better than LI on a per plastic basis, but of course you need to add the value of the rulebook.
Also claiming "only plastic counts!" is a fairly ridiculous way of twisting facts to your advantage here. A discount is still a discount, even if you arbitrarily decide that a $60 rulebook doesn't count for some reason.
I think comparing plastic is a starting point and is the most objective, even if you add on all those ancillary components you don't reach the discounts of the 40k and AoS sets, and the 40k and AoS sets come with their own ancillaries.
Also I never actually claimed that plastic only counts... I was very careful in stating the prices were based on plastic but separately listed the non-plastic additions. e.g. I wrote LI "In a $200 starter you get about $265 of plastic (if bought separately) then the rulebook, the world's crappiest counters, and some dice/rulers/templates. ". Compared to 40k where I wrote "$210 for the box, it's hard to get exact prices because not everything is released and there's some push fit stuff, but even a conservative estimate is roughly $400 of plastic, probably more like $450, the rulebook (in my preferred small form factor!) plus a handbook and a small gaming board. "
I purposely didn't include it in the pricing though because I think people first and foremost look at the pricing of the plastic from a value perspective, and the ancillaries are secondary. The rules and counters and templates are much more questionable on how much value they add and people can make their own call rather than me estimating the value of the rulebook.
Do you value a weighty hardback rulebook that is incomplete more, or the small form factor rulebook + handbook + small gaming board that comes in the 40k set. For me I prefer the latter, but you are welcome to want the LI rulebook more (maybe you keep it next to your bed instead of a cricket bat to use defensively for home invaders? ).
Personally.... I think the LI rulebook is massively overpriced. It's $60 but a large chunk of that is the army list rules which are incomplete and I assume will be replaced when wave 2/3/etc come out and they release full rules for those factions. To me personally, the small form factor rulebook that comes in the 40k and AoS starters are actually more value, because that's the sort of book I actually want to take to a game.
But people can make their own call on the ancillaries, that's why I listed them even though I didn't add them to the dollar comparisons.
chaos0xomega wrote: Most of the photos and tutorials for Raven Guard (and to a lesser extent Iron Hands) I've found online follow that trend. Lots of people just seem to paint their raven guard black, pick out a few details in dark greys, maybe some red lenses or whatever, and call it a day. Its very boring.
Actually RG can be surprisingly bright when they want too (see this RG captain and his entourage from Damocles campaign). Though yeah, most of the time it's boring all black, all the time:
That is a rare case of a good looking Raven Guard.
Myself I'm looking at Iron Hands for my next HH legion for their lore but I'd hate to ruin expensive models with just a black spray and silver edge highlight.
On WH+ there's a video about weathering where they weather up an Iron Hands predator to help bring out the detail. Looks pretty good.
The trick is, yes, do the simple stuff, but also take some time to pick out the details. The more metal you can pick out for Iron Hands the better, imo.
I just wish their supply/demand ratio was better at GW. I am just trying to pick up LI bases for AT titans I already have (I think they look better than the ones I did) and I keep getting notifications that they are back in stock at like, 3am local time, and by the time I see it at 8am, they are out of stock already.
They're bases, for Peter Turbo's sake, they don't even have a box, or a assembly sheet, or included transfers. Just make some more of them!
I can't believe that being OOS indicates that the bases are massively popular and huge bestsellers, so I suspect they just aren't making enough.
Da Butcha wrote: I just wish their supply/demand ratio was better at GW. I am just trying to pick up LI bases for AT titans I already have (I think they look better than the ones I did) and I keep getting notifications that they are back in stock at like, 3am local time, and by the time I see it at 8am, they are out of stock already.
They're bases, for Peter Turbo's sake, they don't even have a box, or a assembly sheet, or included transfers. Just make some more of them!
I can't believe that being OOS indicates that the bases are massively popular and huge bestsellers, so I suspect they just aren't making enough.
Could be folks doing what I did as a kid. Sod putting five models on a base. Just put one and streeeeeeetch that boxed set.
Well gw can't produce enough of anything on 24/7 production. I doubt bases are priority.
Flgs got their starter sets but all marine inf boxes were sold out before flgs got theirs. So i have to get by 2 infantry sets untrl gw produces more maybe in 3-4 months.
Da Butcha wrote: I just wish their supply/demand ratio was better at GW. I am just trying to pick up LI bases for AT titans I already have (I think they look better than the ones I did) and I keep getting notifications that they are back in stock at like, 3am local time, and by the time I see it at 8am, they are out of stock already.
They're bases, for Peter Turbo's sake, they don't even have a box, or a assembly sheet, or included transfers. Just make some more of them!
I can't believe that being OOS indicates that the bases are massively popular and huge bestsellers, so I suspect they just aren't making enough.
Could be folks doing what I did as a kid. Sod putting five models on a base. Just put one and streeeeeeetch that boxed set.
He wants bases, not modeis he has titans. Not bases.
If i had spare bases i might temporarily do that until i get 2 boxes...but i don't want to make temporal bases and cut models off and gw doesn't sell 25mm bases for legions
Albertorius wrote: I'm currently using a "two stage slapchop", if we can call it that, with my Imperial Fists: white primer, then very thinned down Xpress Pink, drybrush white and then 50/50 Xpress yellow with medium. After that I do a pale yellow highlight:
Spoiler:
(more on my 3d printing thread, in case you want to see closer up examples)
You could probably do something similar with black contrast, maybe starting with grey primer.
Pink, eh, that's interesting. I really like how they came out so if I decide to go with Imperial Fists I might steel that idea, haha.
Maybe instead of an Xpress pink, a pink wash would mean that you wouldn't have to drybrush white (or the drybrush could be lighter) and therefore get away from the graininess a bit? (not that I particularly mind the graininess myself, but offering a suggestion for chaos)
Since you mention it, I've actually spent the past day or so trying to figure out a technique that I call "Slapdash" (because why not?), which is like "Slapchop", except you start with one of the contrast primers (white scar/grey seer/wraith bone) and use inks/washes/shades (still trying to figure out what the best approach here is) to greyscale/grisaille the miniature (or whatever color it is you prefer if you want to use pink or whatever), and then go back and either do a very targeted edge highlighting or very light dampbrush (again, artis opus drybrushing technique with the dampening pad) focused on hitting edges with a very specific (but not yet well defined) type of paint.
Spoilered for those so inclined:
Spoiler:
You would want to use the contrast formulated primers - I know a lot of people think they are overpriced, but you do see a noticeable difference in the flow and behavior of your contrast paint over these primers vs other options - you will get a much better edge highlighting effect over them owing to their "smoothness" vs the relative gritiness of other primers and basecoats which will otherwise "hold" more contrast paint. With the contrast primers that means that more paint flows off the raised edges and into the pools compared to what you see with non-contrast primers. Its subtle but its present.
You would want to minimize the extent of the drybrushing because thats where the chalkiness that I hate comes from. Even the best drybrusher (like artis opus) can't really avoid adding that unwanted texture in with the process, while their approach does make a noticeable improvement over others I've seen, its still there. Its just an unavoidable outcome of the drybrush process. That means starting from black, and doing a two-stage drybrush process to grey and then to white introduces a lot of texture spos that will bring that chalkiness in. Instead you want to wash down to your darks to minimize the addition of that texture - preferably using something with as fine of a pigmentation as possible so that you aren't adding additional grit in. I've actually been speculating on whether or not you can use a dye or an alcohol ink here, as they don't use a solid pigment unlike other paints, inks, shades, washes, etc. and instead are, well, dyes (i.e. liquid pigmentation). That means you're not going to add additional grit or texture to your mini and you will maintain the flow properties of the contrast in a theoretically close-to idealized state. Dyes have some downsides though, in that they sunbleach/fade over time when exposed to UV. I'm not sure that this will be an issue once you cover it with contrast later, as that should act as a bit of a filter, and anyway we should all be using a UV protective clearcoat over our minis once we're done painting anyway... you guys do use UV protective clearcoats, right? Right??? Anyway, I'm not sure if an alcohol ink or dye will bond with a primer coat on a plastic mini - I've never tried and I can't find anyone else who has though from what I could find about alcohol inks they do work best on non-porous surfaces like plastic. I'm also not sure what the effect of using contrast paint over this will be - if it reactivates the dye then you have a mess on your hands, though you might be able to use a clearcoat over it to prevent it? (probably requires gloss for added smoothness over matte clearcoats). Theres also the fact that alcohol is a solvent to acrylic, so the question of what it will do to your primer coat needs to be considered as well (will it pull up/destroy your primer layer??). Once dry the alcohol evaporates so it won't necessarily be an issue to anything being put on the mini afterwards, just whatever is there before.
Anyway, once you've shaded down, you want to highlight up. Unfortunately there is not (to my knowledge) a "reverse shade" paint that will suck paint up to the highlight areas and leave the recesses uncolored, so you either need to go through the painstaking process of manually edge-highlighting your mini white or cheat it with a drybrush technique which will go faster but potentially introduce too much of that chalkiness back in. Depending on the level of coverage of your shading method, you might have to do some more work to create a more distinct midtone between shade and highlight, but for now we'll assume thats already done. Heres the other potential pitfall here - if you recall GWs explanation of the contrast primer, white pigments are very very very large particles which result in too much "tooth" for the contrast to latch onto and ruins the flow. If you're using white paint, you're basically shooting yourself in the foot if your goal is to avoid altering the behavior of the contrast flow. This will probably require a good bit of experimentation, but in theory you can circumvent these issues by using a very lightly colored/white semi-gloss or satin paint, as the clear binders used to alter the sheen fill in the gaps between pigment particles and increase smoothness (and thats almost certainly how GW worked out white scar - finest white pigment available + toying with the binder levels until you got something that was smooth enough to work without having undesirable levels of gloss sheen to it). My experimentation with gloss + contrast is that it might be *too* smooth and the contrast almost rolls right off of it, so I'm guessing that the key is to find a semi-gloss or satin instead which will provide enough tooth for the contrast to stain and discolor it but not enough to truly pool. Without going too deep into the science of how finish/sheen works, the glossier it gets the more binder is there - the binder is an ultra-fine molecule that fills the space around the pigment particles and smooths out the surface finish of the paint layer at a microscopic level to create a more uniform light reflectivity. A full gloss sheen, as a result, is often mirror or near-mirror smooth as the binder is essentially fully-encasing the pigment particles to produce a uniform surface with uniform scattering and reflectivity. Satin and semi-gloss sheens are usually slightly rougher surfaces that aren't quite mirror smooth, while flat and matte finishes are usually quite rough and have minimal levels of binder and thus provide the most tooth. You can see some visual approximations of what I mean here (wouldn't necessarily take it literally, but it helps to understand): https://emeraldpropainting.com/know-your-sheen-levels/ So you're looking for something that isn't completely smooth but only has just enough grit to hold enough contrast paint to stain it a different shade of color without pooling up and darkening it to eliminate your highlighting.
Once done with the highlighting, Your finished slapdash greyscaling should produce a mini that has a distinct midtone, a very very dark shade tone, and a very very light highlight tone. Contrast paint has surprisingly good coverage, which is why many early attempts by the community at doing pre-shading techniques with contrast didn't produce significant results - the shading and highlighiting that results from hitting your mini with nuln oil (for example) before hitting it with contrast is insignificant to produce a dramatic enough difference between your shade, midtone, and highlight to produce a meaningful result vs just putting contrast on a mini with primer-only. The "grit" added in by the pigments in nuln oil would also reduce the flowiness of the contrast which altered its behavior. Likewise, zenithal techniques are subpar compared to slapchop because theres often too much highlight and not enough midtone/shade, so you don't get the same dimension in your finished mini that you would if you used slapchop instead. The extent to which you would have to work at the mini to get the right shading, highlighting, and midtones would really depend on what materials you're using. I initially theorized that you could maybe use Grey Seer as your base, shade down with an ink or wash or whatever, and then highlight up to white - BUT grey seer is already so light that you will lose the highlights when you put your final contrast coats over it because there isn't enough of a... er... contrast between greyseer and white for it to be meaningfully noticeable. Now, your shading would certainly darken up that greyseer a bit, but the question kind of is how much - the result of using nuln oil would probably be "not enough" unless you did multiple very heavy coats - you need to get areas of the mini down to close to a solid black and have large swathes of the mini in a solid medium-grey. Using a Dark Tone Army Painter quickshade dip might do the trick, but you might need to do a double-dip to really get the results you want (though from what I recall this is a fairly glossy product, so might be too smooth to give you the results you want). What you don't want though is to make the majority of your mini black or very dark grey and then have to spend time re-lightening and in the process add back in the texture you are otherwise trying to avoid.
If you can get the right alignment of product and technique, you should have a very nicely shaded greyscale (or pinkscale, or whatever it is) miniature with distinct midtone body, dark shading, and bright highlighting. Then, you hit it with your contrast coat and you should be basically done sans whatvever post-contrast layering and highlighting you might want to opt to do. You will have eliminated the majority (if not totality) of the chalkiness from your finished result. The only outstanding question that remains is how muted and washed out the color is. I don't know if its possible to get a good slapchop or slapdash finish that doesn't wash out the color, because i think in order for it to work your midtone needs to be sufficiently dark enough to read through your contrast layer vs your shade and highlight - subtlety doesnt seem to work (and if you compare the same contrast on white scar vs grey seer, you'll see that theres not a lot of distinction between the two in terms of end result). In reality, you can probably get away with a lighter shade and a lighter midtone than what I have imagined here and which produces enough "contrast" with the highlight to not get lost but still provides a distinct gradient in color without significantly washing out the contrast, the real trick though is that your shade coat can't be so light that the contrast overpowers it - you still want to have that dark shading prsent.
I'm hoping to experiment with the technique IRL in the next few weeks, we'll see if I discover anything in the process.
tneva82 wrote: Well gw can't produce enough of anything on 24/7 production. I doubt bases are priority.
Flgs got their starter sets but all marine inf boxes were sold out before flgs got theirs. So i have to get by 2 infantry sets untrl gw produces more maybe in 3-4 months.
Da Butcha wrote: I just wish their supply/demand ratio was better at GW. I am just trying to pick up LI bases for AT titans I already have (I think they look better than the ones I did) and I keep getting notifications that they are back in stock at like, 3am local time, and by the time I see it at 8am, they are out of stock already.
They're bases, for Peter Turbo's sake, they don't even have a box, or a assembly sheet, or included transfers. Just make some more of them!
I can't believe that being OOS indicates that the bases are massively popular and huge bestsellers, so I suspect they just aren't making enough.
Could be folks doing what I did as a kid. Sod putting five models on a base. Just put one and streeeeeeetch that boxed set.
He wants bases, not modeis he has titans. Not bases.
If i had spare bases i might temporarily do that until i get 2 boxes...but i don't want to make temporal bases and cut models off and gw doesn't sell 25mm bases for legions
1) you don't cut models off.
You simply add more models later when more boxes become available.
If you insist on finishing the bases before you have all the models you just leave unfished holes to slot the models into later.
2) it's an Xmm base. Square, round, oval, plastic, wood, with/without a lip.... Surely SOMEONE out there on the web makes what you need.
1) you don't cut models off.
You simply add more models later when more boxes become available.
If you insist on finishing the bases before you have all the models you just leave unfished holes to slot the models into later.
2) it's an Xmm base. Square, round, oval, plastic, wood, with/without a lip.... Surely SOMEONE out there on the web makes what you need.
Sure if I want mismatch of bases.
If I want MATCHING bases that actually look like they are fighting same battlefield I kind of need same type of bases ;-)
Sure if I don't mind some fight arctic and some mars and others city I can do all sort of bases. But since I prefer united look...
1) you don't cut models off.
You simply add more models later when more boxes become available.
If you insist on finishing the bases before you have all the models you just leave unfished holes to slot the models into later.
2) it's an Xmm base. Square, round, oval, plastic, wood, with/without a lip.... Surely SOMEONE out there on the web makes what you need.
Sure if I want mismatch of bases.
If I want MATCHING bases that actually look like they are fighting same battlefield I kind of need same type of bases ;-)
Sure if I don't mind some fight arctic and some mars and others city I can do all sort of bases. But since I prefer united look...
This is why I wish I could rebase all my models on clear acrylic bases.
P1: "Hey Joe, let's do a city battle"
P2: "Can't, all my troops are on Arctic bases. I can only play in snowy tundra battles."
Remember a Flames even I went to, a winter themed Finish force fighting a winter themed Russian force, in the deserts of North Africa..
mind you my DAK were not that please with the snowy wastes of Finland..
I like the idea of clear bases, trouble is they are way too reflective and glossy, sort of by design.
doing mine on plain discs here, Zandri Dust, a nice neutral sandy yellow that could be sand, some sort of industrial waste etc, but since my XIV and Solar aux are in the same semi-desert theme its good
it also makes them really easy to see on the typically grassland table used
leopard wrote: Remember a Flames even I went to, a winter themed Finish force fighting a winter themed Russian force, in the deserts of North Africa..
In same army though?
Wouldn't it look bit odd of having some of your army in desert and some in winter bases
Haven't seen anybody deliberately do different basing on same army.
I have some with rubble bases and some with more grassland, though its quite specific on the units with artillery stuff like mortars being grassland, but a muddy grassland and infantry who would get up close in rubble. edge case though
seen armies where some units are on reasonably tidy concrete and others with rubble that worked, similar colours though
SU-152 wrote: I got custom bases for my SA, they are going to be basically dirt, with some patches of grass.
I don't like the excessive urban vibe GW is focusing on with LI.
sounds good to me, and agree they have a bit of an urban focus, I guess because they make terrain kits for urban and not so much for grassland, deserts, plains, forests etc
Is that meant to be the same army deployed to three different environments at different periods of time? Or separate parts of the same army deployed to three different environments at the same time?
From Albinoork's original P&M blog "The idea of painting a 120 or so guardsman in urban camo is just ... horrible. I kept the same style of camo, but used different colors."
Also, the desert area all missiles and GLs, the winter lascannon and plasma and the urban autocannon and melta (flamers in all three), so there is a practical effect of different scheme use.
SU-152 wrote: I got custom bases for my SA, they are going to be basically dirt, with some patches of grass.
I don't like the excessive urban vibe GW is focusing on with LI.
sounds good to me, and agree they have a bit of an urban focus, I guess because they make terrain kits for urban and not so much for grassland, deserts, plains, forests etc
I could be wrong, but I reckon 90% of the reason they went with the urban focus is because of the round bases with models that have to be glued on top of the base.
It makes it very hard to paint the base after the models are attached (let alone attached and painted) so the easy way out is to have a flat base that can be painted beforehand and the models simply glued down to it.
It's one of the reasons I like the 3rd edition strip bases.... aesthetically not as pleasing as circle bases but my goodness they make painting and basing soooo much easier.
SU-152 wrote: I got custom bases for my SA, they are going to be basically dirt, with some patches of grass.
I don't like the excessive urban vibe GW is focusing on with LI.
sounds good to me, and agree they have a bit of an urban focus, I guess because they make terrain kits for urban and not so much for grassland, deserts, plains, forests etc
I could be wrong, but I reckon 90% of the reason they went with the urban focus is because of the round bases with models that have to be glued on top of the base.
It makes it very hard to paint the base after the models are attached (let alone attached and painted) so the easy way out is to have a flat base that can be painted beforehand and the models simply glued down to it.
It's one of the reasons I like the 3rd edition strip bases.... aesthetically not as pleasing as circle bases but my goodness they make painting and basing soooo much easier.
may have a point, though for the box art beauty shots I would be amazing if they were painted on the base and the base wasn't pre-painted
and yes agree on the strips, never liked the look but can appreciate the practicality
chaos0xomega wrote: Is that meant to be the same army deployed to three different environments at different periods of time? Or separate parts of the same army deployed to three different environments at the same time?
Sigh. Same army in same game.
But sure. Show your army based in multiple ways used at once together.
If you dont do it don't suggest others do either. Put your money where and all that.
chaos0xomega wrote: Is that meant to be the same army deployed to three different environments at different periods of time? Or separate parts of the same army deployed to three different environments at the same time?
Sigh. Same army in same game.
But sure. Show your army based in multiple ways used at once together.
If you dont do it don't suggest others do either. Put your money where and all that.
I have no idea what you're talking about, and I would guess most others would be equally perplexed as well.
It was already basically confirmed but the Leman Russ from the core box will have its own box with 8 models inside instead of sharing one with the Malcadors as this appeared on ebay now:
Also makes me think it shouldn't be long now for the next preorder wave since that guy somehow got their hands on ten boxes of these.
considering they use leman russ executioners as the painting examples on the back of that box and the solar auxilia cohort example at the beginning of there army list in the rule book shows a four tank unit of demolishers and executioners I would hope so.
2) it's an Xmm base. Square, round, oval, plastic, wood, with/without a lip.... Surely SOMEONE out there on the web makes what you need.
Sure if I want mismatch of bases.
If I want MATCHING bases that actually look like they are fighting same battlefield I kind of need same type of bases ;-)
Sure if I don't mind some fight arctic and some mars and others city I can do all sort of bases. But since I prefer united look...
Why wouldn't you order enough bases from the same source to make everything match?
As for mismatched terrain finishes on your bases?
If you wanted a unified look then I'm not sure why youd have done a mix.
Nobody forced you to do some Mars, some City, & still others as arctic
There are also a few images in the core book in the same style as the image on the front of the boxes. For those units already released its the same picture they used on their box and this Leman Russ box also uses the same image as in the book so its very likely all the other images also depict boxart for upcoming models.
Those images are:
Leman Russ Executioners
Termite Assault Drills (notable in Deathguard colours, not Mechanicus red so should be coming earlier than that faction)
And a Leman Russ Exterminator? (the twin autocannon variant). This one isn't the exact same size as all the other ones though so could be not a boxart.
drbored wrote: Also interesting that it's the Leman Russ 'Strike' Squadron, which means that other Russ loadouts could be coming as different squadrons.
I expect they release another box with the "siege" variants??? Demolisher/plasma/incinerator...
drbored wrote: Also interesting that it's the Leman Russ 'Strike' Squadron, which means that other Russ loadouts could be coming as different squadrons.
I expect they release another box with the "siege" variants??? Demolisher/plasma/incinerator...
It would be "assault", that's how they are divided up in the SA army list for big 30k, only thing is for big 30k the strike unit includes the exterminator and annihilator variants rather than just mbt and vanquisher
lurch wrote: considering they use leman russ executioners as the painting examples on the back of that box and the solar auxilia cohort example at the beginning of there army list in the rule book shows a four tank unit of demolishers and executioners I would hope so.
dang good catch, I didn't even notice that on the back of the box. That pretty much seals the deal right there.
I know there's also the FW volkite leman russ variant, hope to see that in LI eventually too since it's so unique.
Time will tell. As it is, plenty still to wait on and we gotta get through the holidays x.x
There will be minimum of three different Leman Russ Squadron Sets - because we have three different illustrations with Leman Russ Battle Tanks in the Rulebook which look like Box Covers.
.
RazorEdge wrote: There will be minimum of three different Leman Russ Squadron Sets - because we have three different illustrations with Leman Russ Battle Tanks in the Rulebook which look like Box Covers.
.
Seems like all it will do is clutter up the leman russ turret options. Autocannons look cool but sound sorta meh, plasma might be ok, but not sure how it'd mesh into things.
RazorEdge wrote: There will be minimum of three different Leman Russ Squadron Sets - because we have three different illustrations with Leman Russ Battle Tanks in the Rulebook which look like Box Covers.
.
There's no guarantee all of these pieces of art will become products. The rulebook also has box art style pictures for Knight Atrapos and Arvus lighters, which so far remain as FW resin kits. Still there's always a chance this stuff will show up eventually.
I think the art style given the consistency very much likely denotes those also being the box art, so though I can't speak to the resin stuff, if it get some kind of packaging I would imagine it would have the same artwork or as chaosxomega mentioned, they may not remain in resin indefinitely. The arvus would indeed sell quite well I would imagine.
well unless the Dracosan is significantly better the sort of number the Arvus is needed in will promote alternatives, either clones or "close enough" in size and style on the likes of Etsy so GW have the chance to make it and sell them, or leave it
chaos0xomega wrote: I can't see the arvus remaining resin indefinitely, not with it being the SAs primary transport in the current rules.
Not holding my breath on this one, especially after the Knights in Titanicus...
Wise Old Sad Git Moment.
Resin is the modern metal. In the past, we’ve seen stuff produced in metal, and then transition to plastic. The question is why.
The Resin Arvus were produced for Aeronautica. A game in which they were super specialised and utterly unarmed. As such, super niche.
In Legions Imperialis? They have a greater appeal as a basic, flying transport.
Legions Imperialis is, despite selling out, currently something of an unknown quantity. And it’ll be some time before we know if it has staying power.
And so, for now, despite its new found ubiquity? The Arvus exists in resin, and it’s too early for GW to tell if the game it found that ubiquity in will justify the cost of it crossing the Rubicon Plasticarus.
chaos0xomega wrote: I can't see the arvus remaining resin indefinitely, not with it being the SAs primary transport in the current rules.
Not holding my breath on this one, especially after the Knights in Titanicus...
Wise Old Sad Git Moment.
Resin is the modern metal. In the past, we’ve seen stuff produced in metal, and then transition to plastic. The question is why.
The Resin Arvus were produced for Aeronautica. A game in which they were super specialised and utterly unarmed. As such, super niche.
In Legions Imperialis? They have a greater appeal as a basic, flying transport.
Legions Imperialis is, despite selling out, currently something of an unknown quantity. And it’ll be some time before we know if it has staying power.
And so, for now, despite its new found ubiquity? The Arvus exists in resin, and it’s too early for GW to tell if the game it found that ubiquity in will justify the cost of it crossing the Rubicon Plasticarus.
I don't disagree, but I think it'll come eventually.
To SamusDrakes point though, I will point to the plasticization of the resin warhoundvweapons and the upcoming Dire Wolf as examples of an existing resin to plastic pipeline across the Rubicon Plasticarus.
Dire Wolf is ridiculously niche, it must in part be aimed at appeasing AT players specifically, otherwise why make a 5th plastic support titan when you could make a faction superheavy, or even put a few more tools towards the next faction.
lord_blackfang wrote: Dire Wolf is ridiculously niche, it must in part be aimed at appeasing AT players specifically, otherwise why make a 5th plastic support titan when you could make a faction superheavy, or even put a few more tools towards the next faction.
I don't play AT (yet) but I would expect them to be happier about more weapons coming to plastic instead of the Dire Wolf if it actually is that niche?
Another weapon sprue for the Reaver might be a bit harder since it only has carapace weapons left in resin. If they want another whole kit like the other two they would need to invent at least two more new arm weapons but that didn't stop them with the new Warhound weapons.
And the Warlord and the Warbringer with its second main gun still have enough weapons in resin for new kits.
Especially the Warbringer would fit perfectly since its the only one without a second kit currently and if I'm remembering correctly while the weapons themselves are the same as the Reaver weapons, the arm connection is different so you can't use the weapons in the Reaver kits without a bit of work?
Or just a completely new Titan class
Personally I'm fine with the Dire Wolf since I quite like the design and I mainly buy the models to build and paint and not to play so it being niche doesn't really affect me but if they only moved it to plastic so the AT crowd also got a release there should have been better things to choose.
drbored wrote: All depends. As mentioned, the Dire Wolves made the jump, which was pretty weird, since it was already a pretty niche late-addition to Titanicus.
Just GW being consistent as ever.
I strongly suspect that the dire wolf was designed to be a plastic kit originally, then for whatever reason didn't get the greenlight to be released as one in 2021/22. Perhaps they couldn't spare the tooling resources at the time, maybe the poor sales figures for the Iconoclast affected decisions, or they just didn't want a new AT-branded plastic box (with the 'wrong' bases) so close to the LI launch.
However turning the CAD-designed components into a FW resin kit is pretty easy for GW to do these days, and helps fill a gap in the release schedule for relatively little work. AT players also got reassurance that Epic scale wasn't dead at a time some were talking about selling up.
I strongly suspect that the dire wolf was designed to be a plastic kit originally, then for whatever reason didn't get the greenlight to be released as one in 2021/22. Perhaps they couldn't spare the tooling resources at the time, maybe the poor sales figures for the Iconoclast affected decisions, or they just didn't want a new AT-branded plastic box (with the 'wrong' bases) so close to the LI launch.
That's a very sensible theory. It was quite the outlier in the AT stable as the only resin titan.
We could even get a "soft" confirmation, if the sprues turn out to be dated 2020/21-ish.
It could also be that the Dire Wolf was an experiment to see how a resin titan would sell and be received by the market; with a long term view that if it did well they'd do more and if it did badly or so-so or just no different; they'd eventually use a plastic slot to bring it into plastics.
As it is, I'm happy it made the jump to plastic. I love the Dire Wolf design and hope to see more titans come out in the future, for LI and Titanicus. Both games are great and I need more!
lord_blackfang wrote: Dire Wolf is ridiculously niche, it must in part be aimed at appeasing AT players specifically, otherwise why make a 5th plastic support titan when you could make a faction superheavy, or even put a few more tools towards the next faction.
To be fair the Direwolf is a half-niche titan as it can be used in quite a few maniples, including two from the core AT book. The Warmaster on the other hand is not only a strict auxiliary titan, its also so expensive that a player can realistically expect to include only one in their army. On top of that players are expected to buy a second kit for an alternative loadout, each kit costing around £100.
The other consideration is that the Warhound and Direwolves are the least expensive and powerful titans, which makes them good candidates as the "troop" titans for a legio force in Legions Imperialis.
tneva82 wrote: Rumour is old world would be next. Maybe alongside but i doubt it.
But would be nice. Maybe missing units from rulebook as well. Rapiers and leviathan would be nice. Oh and marine flyers
January has 4 preorder slots, Dark Angels will take one of those and according to rumours TOW and AoS Dawnbringers 4/FEC will take another two.
Which still leaves one more slot that is pretty likely to be the rest still missing for the inital LI stuff
tneva82 wrote: Rumour is old world would be next. Maybe alongside but i doubt it.
Is there a specific rumour about the preorder date? GW usually give major releases like launch boxes at least a week or two to 'breathe' after reveal before confirming any dates. Plus things like new game launches or 40k army boxes tend to land around month end when most people get paid.
tneva82 wrote: Rumour is old world would be next. Maybe alongside but i doubt it.
Is there a specific rumour about the preorder date? GW usually give major releases like launch boxes at least a week or two to 'breathe' after reveal before confirming any dates. Plus things like new game launches or 40k army boxes tend to land around month end when most people get paid.
Current rumour is preorder on the 6th for TOW. (and the 13th for Dawnbringers/FEC)
This is coming from the same person who told us about the Ironjawz releases back then and the preorder dates for the Tyranid and SM releases and lately also the release date for LI so should be reliable.
local Helsinki area LGS's got their LI restocks yesterday, any of you missed out, now is the chance to grab some kits.. unless they sold out again already?
tauist wrote:someone spotted the Leman Russ kit in the wild, 8 tanks per box as suspected
might mean the second LI wave is dropping soon?
Matrindur wrote:It was already basically confirmed but the Leman Russ from the core box will have its own box with 8 models inside instead of sharing one with the Malcadors as this appeared on ebay now:
Also makes me think it shouldn't be long now for the next preorder wave since that guy somehow got their hands on ten boxes of these.
This is probably someone who bought from this ebay seller who I posted about a week ago, other interesting bits are that this person had more than 1, I think it was 10? So not just a case of "I got sent one box by mistake instead of something else" like how the new Dante leaked back then.
Also the painting examples on the back show a Leman Russ Executioner, which also gets its own cover art in the core book. These cover arts in the book are used by all current sets as their boxart so pretty likely there will be another LR box with other weapons in the future.
Images in the core book:
Spoiler:
Leman Russ Executioner:
Also the Termite Assault Drills
This one has a different aspect ratio compared to the others so might not be a boxart:
And while the arvus lighters are already available I think they are sold in the white boxes since they are forgeworld so they wouldn't have a boxart? So maybe plastic versions are coming with this boxart?
The assault drill is an interesting one. It can be used by either faction, conceivably.
The Arvus Lighters are in clampacks like many other FW things and do have modernized LI clampack art. Would love them to move to plastic tho, considering how they're currently the only Solar Auxilia transport until we get the Dracosan.
drbored wrote: The assault drill is an interesting one. It can be used by either faction, conceivably.
The Arvus Lighters are in clampacks like many other FW things and do have modernized LI clampack art. Would love them to move to plastic tho, considering how they're currently the only Solar Auxilia transport until we get the Dracosan.
Is the Arvus clampack art the same as the one in the book? I can't find any unboxings with LI branding for them.
The assault drill will for sure be available for Legiones Astartes since its in Death Guard colours here and SA is also likely since it has rules in HH in the Legacies document
Malika2 wrote: Are those Leman Russes armed with twin stubbers?
If you mean the "different aspect ratio" one from Matrindur's "Images from the core book" spoiler, Malika, they'll be twin autocannon. The Exterminator variant.
This is probably someone who bought from this ebay seller who I posted about a week ago, other interesting bits are that this person had more than 1, I think it was 10? So not just a case of "I got sent one box by mistake instead of something else" like how the new Dante leaked back then.
On Discord I heard that the mistaken order was sent to a trade customer within their new stock, which is why they received so many boxes.
Given the current state of rumours, I'd bet we see something like:
Jan 6th: TOW preorder
Jan 13th: DA army box preorder
Jan 20th Next LI wave
Jan 27th: AOS
This week between the holidays is always a weird one. Big businesses just don't operate normally since various states of the supply chain and management are on vacation.
So, we just gotta hold tight through the next week for things to start getting back on some sort of track.
Expect more 2-week preorders going forward, personally. So even if we do get the next wave of LI things sometime in January, I don't expect they'll hit the shelves until Feb. And then there's of course all the other stuff that's been out of stock since the release early December that hopefully someday will come back. Really hope LI doesn't go the way of the Kasrkin where it only comes back in stock twice a year for 5 minutes.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Really, really hope the start box tanks come out separately soon. Need to expand my vehicle pool!
even with print options, I want a box or two of Leman Russ and maybe Macladors, there are STL but the actual models are amazing, ditto the Predator actually
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Really, really hope the start box tanks come out separately soon. Need to expand my vehicle pool!
even with print options, I want a box or two of Leman Russ and maybe Macladors, there are STL but the actual models are amazing, ditto the Predator actually
I can hardly tell the difference between the plastics and my prints, except that the prints have exchangeable sponsons, also with blender I was able to add 3D legion Icons instead of decals, stowage and a few different options. Honestly I may just sell the rest of the plastics, I only built one of each to ensure scale, they are very annoying to build compared to the prints which consist of less than half the parts, but are just as detailed if not more.
Also if you have a printer...have some free storage solutions
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Really, really hope the start box tanks come out separately soon. Need to expand my vehicle pool!
even with print options, I want a box or two of Leman Russ and maybe Macladors, there are STL but the actual models are amazing, ditto the Predator actually
I can hardly tell the difference between the plastics and my prints, except that the prints have exchangeable sponsons, also with blender I was able to add 3D legion Icons instead of decals, stowage and a few different options. Honestly I may just sell the rest of the plastics, I only built one of each to ensure scale, they are very annoying to build compared to the prints which consist of less than half the parts, but are just as detailed if not more.
Also if you have a printer...have some free storage solutions
The plastics are a bit more detailed. That said, give me a couple of hours and I could add that detail to the 3D model.
I do prefer the workflow of 3D printing for Epic. I'm slow, so it takes me maybe an hour to support a model, but once they're supported it's less time consuming to pump out a pile of models then if I were building the plastic models.
The bottoms of 3D printed models do look ugly with all the supports, but if you aren't picking the models up to view the bottom of them, it's not really an issue.
My 3D prints still have noticeable layer lines though, which is surprisingly more noticeable on tanks than it is on infantry.
I have seen prints with no lines its a filament bambo printer. dont know if you write it like that.
but it creates a smooth print. but i will buy gw mini's, dont ask me way layzy
Interesting how we are getting this book later this month with probably the models that have rules in it but are also still waiting on stuff from the inital wave
Matrindur wrote: Interesting how we are getting this book later this month with probably the models that have rules in it but are also still waiting on stuff from the inital wave
Odds are they come together then. Maybe as a part of catching up the original delay.
Not quite sure on the point of the "Titandeath" rules, sounds like it's designed for games purely of knights and titans, so basically Adeptus Titanicus but without all the in depth titan rules.
Tavis75 wrote: Not quite sure on the point of the "Titandeath" rules, sounds like it's designed for games purely of knights and titans, so basically Adeptus Titanicus but without all the in depth titan rules.
That’s no bad thing, gives an option to play with a lot of your titan toys without needing 8 hours and another 6x4 board for all the cardboard. Won’t be for everyone ofc but some will like it.
Tavis75 wrote: Not quite sure on the point of the "Titandeath" rules, sounds like it's designed for games purely of knights and titans, so basically Adeptus Titanicus but without all the in depth titan rules.
Does allow for bigger games between titans without breaking the game.
For example that would be scale where imperators might actually work up. AT imperator would break up.
Matrindur wrote: Interesting how we are getting this book later this month with probably the models that have rules in it but are also still waiting on stuff from the inital wave
Odds are they come together then. Maybe as a part of catching up the original delay.
Yes very likely it will just all come together. But just taking the stuff they are directly talking about in the article and shown in the images, so fast attack box, Spartans, both drop pod boxes, SA artillery and Dracosans, are already 6 boxes plus the missing stuff so another two boxes plus four Titan boxes, two knight boxes and four aircraft boxes.
So we are looking at 18 individual kits plus the book.
Not everything will likely be released at that time but its still a lot.
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Tavis75 wrote: Not quite sure on the point of the "Titandeath" rules, sounds like it's designed for games purely of knights and titans, so basically Adeptus Titanicus but without all the in depth titan rules.
anything smaller than an Armiger has no place in Titandeath battles
So yes it's only for knights and up. I would think its not just the same 1 Knight/1 Titan detachments from the core book but a bit expanded army lists and if so there should be nothing really stopping you from just using those titan only stuff together with normal detachments or against them
Not really a surprise given how the rulebook was done.... but I'm still disappointed the approach is going to be to release rules for units across campaign books.
I just love carting a library of heavy hardback rulebooks around to play a single faction
I hope the epub releases the same time as the physical book, as has been the case so far for LI.
With these units releasing in Q1, I could finally start collecting a LI army.. but I'll give it some more time to mature. I'd imagine a good point to jump on board will be when the next campaign book drops
Titandeath games sound suitably Epic.. I await the first battreps with 6000 points of Titans & Knights per side
A recent (accurate) leaker who said TOW was a Jan 6th preorder also expects an AOS/FEC preorder on Jan 27th, meaning that LI will either be the 13th or 20th
Tavis75 wrote: Not quite sure on the point of the "Titandeath" rules, sounds like it's designed for games purely of knights and titans, so basically Adeptus Titanicus but without all the in depth titan rules.
There's plenty of AT players out there with 20+ model collections that GW will want to gently encourage into LI if they're not already. Not to mention they are still to release the discounted knight & titan 'battleforce' boxes that were intended for xmas.
tauist wrote: I hope the epub releases the same time as the physical book, as has been the case so far for LI.
What do people use for epubs? Does everyone just have a tablet by default these days? Do you edit out all the waffle between the rules to make it easier to navigate?
A laptop doesn't really seem convenient for wargaming, and I imagine my ereader (old Kindle) won't be able to do anything with it.
nice to see the book due soon, less pleased it looks like a lot of it is fludd or otherwise not needed to actually play but ends up being lugged about.
is what it is, will be nice to finally let SA have mechanisation and marines get the speeders etc though
Interesting to see the next expansion book going up for preorder when we are still waiting on the release of 2 support boxes and 4 armor boxes for the initial set...
ccnick22 wrote: Interesting to see the next expansion book going up for preorder when we are still waiting on the release of 2 support boxes and 4 armor boxes for the initial set...
it may go up at the same time as those boxes, then the newer stuff thats in the book itself follows - on release many have the titans and knights so its usable etc
guessing they are rushing to get back on the initial schedule
MoD_Legion wrote: I haven't even gotten my core box from my FLGS yet (their shipment got 'lost in the warp' by GW) and there's already a supplement coming, fml
Tavis75 wrote: Not quite sure on the point of the "Titandeath" rules, sounds like it's designed for games purely of knights and titans, so basically Adeptus Titanicus but without all the in depth titan rules.
Does allow for bigger games between titans without breaking the game.
For example that would be scale where imperators might actually work up. AT imperator would break up.
Yep...basically Titan mega-battles. I'm an AT guy, but I'm good with this...it's a good use of the very stripped-down LI Titan rules.
And hey, look at that Dire Wolf. Sooner we get that one, the sooner we can get more Titans...hopefully...
tauist wrote: I hope the epub releases the same time as the physical book, as has been the case so far for LI.
What do people use for epubs? Does everyone just have a tablet by default these days? Do you edit out all the waffle between the rules to make it easier to navigate?
A laptop doesn't really seem convenient for wargaming, and I imagine my ereader (old Kindle) won't be able to do anything with it.
I generally get GW via Apple Books and use an iPad. However for Bolt Action, they make ePubs available through Google and I can use my phone (kind of small) or any tablet or computer. Again, for those I tend to use Google Books on my iPad. I wish GW released through Google as well as on Apple. While it is nice to get the direct ePub file from WDigital, I would like more outlets.
Tavis75 wrote: Not quite sure on the point of the "Titandeath" rules, sounds like it's designed for games purely of knights and titans, so basically Adeptus Titanicus but without all the in depth titan rules.
Does allow for bigger games between titans without breaking the game.
For example that would be scale where imperators might actually work up. AT imperator would break up.
Yep...basically Titan mega-battles. I'm an AT guy, but I'm good with this...it's a good use of the very stripped-down LI Titan rules.
And hey, look at that Dire Wolf. Sooner we get that one, the sooner we can get more Titans...hopefully...
The upside too is, for those AT fans who always do those giant mega battles that go all of 2 turns, this present a viable way to do a titan/knight mega battle in a reasonable timeframe without all the extra space needed for terminals.
I feel like I'm going crazy... didn't they explicitly tell us that they had no plans to do titan/knight only forces because they "already had a game for that"?
Are they walking that back with the first expansion book (which must have been in the hopper already by the time they would've said this in a Q&A), or am I misremembering completely?
Well LI main game still doesn't. Those are basically subgame for LI. So you won't be seeing those in your regular matched play games(unless you enjoy using your 3k vs 6k of titans )
Rihgu wrote: I feel like I'm going crazy... didn't they explicitly tell us that they had no plans to do titan/knight only forces because they "already had a game for that"?
Are they walking that back with the first expansion book (which must have been in the hopper already by the time they would've said this in a Q&A), or am I misremembering completely?
I think the point is that they don't actually have a game for battles of say, 15 Titans a side, or whatever their stated 6000 point game size supports. AT can't really support that.
For 2000 point games...that's a case of "go play AT".
I would think an expansion that actually allowed AT players to play LI against LI players would be more useful than an expansion only allowing AT players to continue to play only against other AT players but with a new ruleset they need to buy two hardcovers for.
Rihgu wrote: I feel like I'm going crazy... didn't they explicitly tell us that they had no plans to do titan/knight only forces because they "already had a game for that"?
Are they walking that back with the first expansion book (which must have been in the hopper already by the time they would've said this in a Q&A), or am I misremembering completely?
I think the point is that they don't actually have a game for battles of say, 15 Titans a side, or whatever their stated 6000 point game size supports. AT can't really support that.
For 2000 point games...that's a case of "go play AT".
Classic warlord, 2 reaver 2 warhound maniple is 2400. 6000 has thus easily over 10. 18 warhounds also option.
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lord_blackfang wrote: I would think an expansion that actually allowed AT players to play LI against LI players would be more useful than an expansion only allowing AT players to continue to play only against other AT players but with a new ruleset they need to buy two hardcovers for.
Except skew lists tends to break the game.
Titans would shoot and take damage but with 0 objective control...well it would be very black&white game.
at a guess there will be scenarios with differing win conditions, or alternative tactical strength tables (why couldn't they call it "Objective Control"?)
Not sure how I feel about this... On the one hand, it's very soon to get a major supplement, but the base game seems to be lacking a lot of part for armies to actually work (such as transports for SA). Not sure how the delay factors into this, nor what the initial plans were.
Also not sure on the release schedule for minis with this announcement. Are they going to slip individual releases for the Leman Russ, Malcador, Predator & Sicaran between now and the end of the month, followed by a huge wave of releases for all the new minis in the Great Slaughter ? In which case "The Great Slaughter" probably refers to the players' wallets...
Or are we going to have a situation where the only way to get some Leman Russ will be the core box, but newer units will be available ? Weird if it's the case.
Lastly, I really don't like that in order to play Titan legions/Knight households, you are basically playing Adeptus Titanicus redux. Was hoping for something a bit more developed/involved than this kind of cop out.
But still, it's nice to see more content for the game, and some fleshed out rules and a campaign system.
CorwinB wrote: Not sure how I feel about this... On the one hand, it's very soon to get a major supplement, but the base game seems to be lacking a lot of part for armies to actually work (such as transports for SA). Not sure how the delay factors into this, nor what the initial plans were.
Also not sure on the release schedule for minis with this announcement. Are they going to slip individual releases for the Leman Russ, Malcador, Predator & Sicaran between now and the end of the month, followed by a huge wave of releases for all the new minis in the Great Slaughter ? In which case "The Great Slaughter" probably refers to the players' wallets...
Or are we going to have a situation where the only way to get some Leman Russ will be the core box, but newer units will be available ? Weird if it's the case.
Lastly, I really don't like that in order to play Titan legions/Knight households, you are basically playing Adeptus Titanicus redux. Was hoping for something a bit more developed/involved than this kind of cop out.
But still, it's nice to see more content for the game, and some fleshed out rules and a campaign system.
a) the supplement was planned long time ago. Delay irrelevant
b) my guess. Individual boxes and some of the supplement's first, rest bit later
c) we already have seen individual russ box. They are coming
As others said, this doesn't really let you play LI with a knight or titan army, it let's you play a big game of AT using LI rules.... but it is a framework for that to happen, if LI players can stomach scaling up to 6k pt games, though it won't necessarily be balanced. I suspect once all the factions are decked out with their titan killers it may become a supported game mode, but I expect LI faction players will be investing a few thousand points into things like falchions in order to make it work.
The Great Slaughter will be available to pre-order later this month
I guess they are just rolling with the original roadmap for the game and ignoring the delay of the initial launch. When was it supposed to launch? August? September? Anyway January would have been a pretty standard time for an expansion.
tneva82 wrote: Well LI main game still doesn't. Those are basically subgame for LI. So you won't be seeing those in your regular matched play games(unless you enjoy using your 3k vs 6k of titans )
This. If I’ve read it right, this is specific “Titan only” games for LI, rather than “here’s how you can field nowt but Titans and ROFLstomp armies made up of infantry and tanks”.
leopard wrote: nice to see the book due soon, less pleased it looks like a lot of it is fludd or otherwise not needed to actually play but ends up being lugged about.
Mario would like to know what your problem with the F.L.U.D.D is...
The Great Slaughter will be available to pre-order later this month
I guess they are just rolling with the original roadmap for the game and ignoring the delay of the initial launch. When was it supposed to launch? August? September? Anyway January would have been a pretty standard time for an expansion.
Yeah, IIRC the Titandeath AT supplement was a January release after the August launch of the game.
It’s an experience you’ll rarely see anywhere else – unless...
...you already play Adeptus Titanicus.
Its time for GW to either embrace all three epic scale games for what they each have to offer, or go all-in with Legions and ditch the other two. I'd prefer the first option but right now I don't think anyone is happy with the current state of any of these three games.
It’s an experience you’ll rarely see anywhere else – unless...
...you already play Adeptus Titanicus.
Its time for GW to either embrace all three epic scale games for what they each have to offer, or go all-in with Legions and ditch the other two. I'd prefer the first option but right now I don't think anyone is happy with the current state of any of these three games.
Adeptus titanicus doesn't work well for multi maniple games though. Good luck playing 15 warhounds...Or even something like 3 warlords, 5 reavers and 4 warhounds.
Note how your typical AT game is but a small part of titandeath game in LI.
Adeptus titanicus doesn't work well for multi maniple games though. Good luck playing 15 warhounds...Or even something like 3 warlords, 5 reavers and 4 warhounds.
Note how your typical AT game is but a small part of titandeath game in LI.
Even if you do save the space on the terminals, you would still need a table large enough to field 20 Warlord titans worth of models and enough terrain to keep the game interesting. Not even Legion's rules are going to save it from being a parking lot experience.
Tavis75 wrote: Not quite sure on the point of the "Titandeath" rules, sounds like it's designed for games purely of knights and titans, so basically Adeptus Titanicus but without all the in depth titan rules.
I was thinking along those lines as well, but AT points aren't that far off LI points for Titans, so 6K is going be something like 10-12+ engines per side with a few knights on top of that. So AT apocalypse rules I suppose.
Bit of a shame there's not more of a crossover between the two though - few formations that sneak another engine or two into them so you get closer to a 50% mix or so. Or even a full 70% Titan/Kight force with supporting tech guard/Legion support etc.
It’s an experience you’ll rarely see anywhere else – unless...
...you already play Adeptus Titanicus.
Its time for GW to either embrace all three epic scale games for what they each have to offer, or go all-in with Legions and ditch the other two. I'd prefer the first option but right now I don't think anyone is happy with the current state of any of these three games.
Honestly, I'm pretty good with AT at the moment. Starter sets are back, and new Warhound kits will probably follow with the Dire Wolf kit. I'd like to get more new Titans after the plastic DW, but we'll just have to see. At one time I thought xenos Titans were a strong possibility, but I'm not so sure now. Seems like the only design space that team is allowed is the 30K era. So that may mean more Imperial Titans after all. They'll want new stuff to sell people, after all.
looking forward to seeing what they have done with the campaign part of this as well, could be good, could be phoned in, no way to tell until we have it
leopard wrote: looking forward to seeing what they have done with the campaign part of this as well, could be good, could be phoned in, no way to tell until we have it
It'll almost certainly be the gamble a location to win one more type that was in Titanicus and almost all GW ones (pretty sure necromunda uses the same system too), with territories providing some kind of requisition points to expand out a roster to pick a list from and some way for some units to earn VPs.
There's still a fairly wide spectrum as far as how that can shake out, but I'd generally expect it to assume that you've got multiple players in the campaign (especially with the single page of Nyrcon City we've seen) and not really anything to handle runaway wins or catch ups - I feel probably as it's designed for multiple players split across two(ish) sides, so one side becoming dominant is basically a win. Though they do sometimes have an underdog bonus that rewards players doing badly for occasionally taking on front runners.
Having seen an all-titan game versus space marines at 3k points, Titans are actually far squishier than people think. The titans were tabled by turn 2 in LI by the space marines.
So, it'll be interesting to see how the larger LI titan games will go. I imagine it much like chess, where big titans get removed turn by turn. It'll be a fun thing to do.
Some of y'all like "ugh this titan game is worse than the other titan game" and I'm over here like "Holy feck TWO TITAN GAMES"
Interesting thing for me about the news is the addition of some much-missed units to help flesh out the game; land speeders, jet bikes, drop pods, artillery for the Solars etc. Although I still couldn't find any mention of Land Raiders, which I find pretty remarkable.
The additional titan stuff leaves me cold, as the rules for them in the game are pretty lacking compared to both AT and previous versions of Epic, but I can absolutely understand why they would want to pull in AT players and their collections (or at least get them there are opponents of Legions collectors).
Pacific wrote: Interesting thing for me about the news is the addition of some much-missed units to help flesh out the game; land speeders, jet bikes, drop pods, artillery for the Solars etc. Although I still couldn't find any mention of Land Raiders, which I find pretty remarkable.
The additional titan stuff leaves me cold, as the rules for them in the game are pretty lacking compared to both AT and previous versions of Epic, but I can absolutely understand why they would want to pull in AT players and their collections (or at least get them there are opponents of Legions collectors).
That's something they should have done from the very start, TBH. A "new" game like this needs people to play with, and AT players already had armies.
drbored wrote: Having seen an all-titan game versus space marines at 3k points, Titans are actually far squishier than people think. The titans were tabled by turn 2 in LI by the space marines.
So, it'll be interesting to see how the larger LI titan games will go. I imagine it much like chess, where big titans get removed turn by turn. It'll be a fun thing to do.
Some of y'all like "ugh this titan game is worse than the other titan game" and I'm over here like "Holy feck TWO TITAN GAMES"
Just curious if that game was aircraft-heavy. Its just that a warcom article had mentioned that each type of unit had a role to play, and that aircraft were effective against Titans.
Tavis75 wrote: Not quite sure on the point of the "Titandeath" rules, sounds like it's designed for games purely of knights and titans, so basically Adeptus Titanicus but without all the in depth titan rules.
I was thinking along those lines as well, but AT points aren't that far off LI points for Titans, so 6K is going be something like 10-12+ engines per side with a few knights on top of that. So AT apocalypse rules I suppose.
Bit of a shame there's not more of a crossover between the two though - few formations that sneak another engine or two into them so you get closer to a 50% mix or so. Or even a full 70% Titan/Kight force with supporting tech guard/Legion support etc.
Agree on this.
Seems like lazy design, again. Why not just swap the % with the regular game?? like core formations must be Knights/Titans and up to 30% of allies (SA, SM infantry, tanks...).
Also, in Titandeath games, what is the point of using non-Engine killer weapons? none.
Seems like lazy design, again. Why not just swap the % with the regular game?? like core formations must be Knights/Titans and up to 30% of allies (SA, SM infantry, tanks...).
Also, in Titandeath games, what is the point of using non-Engine killer weapons? none.
Easy, so they have more rules to sell in the next expansion. The next one will allow all Titan vs all SM/SA battles and the one after that will allow the 70/30 split with Titans as the 70%. And the one after that will come with Mechanicum which will completely overhaul the titan rules so you need to buy the book again
Seems like lazy design, again. Why not just swap the % with the regular game?? like core formations must be Knights/Titans and up to 30% of allies (SA, SM infantry, tanks...).
Also, in Titandeath games, what is the point of using non-Engine killer weapons? none.
Easy, so they have more rules to sell in the next expansion. The next one will allow all Titan vs all SM/SA battles and the one after that will allow the 70/30 split with Titans as the 70%. And the one after that will come with Mechanicum which will completely overhaul the titan rules so you need to buy the book again
the sad end result of people who whine about anything not direct from GW is "not allowed!"
have already suggested here, yet to try but regular oppo is up for it, bringing the maniple formations from AT into Legions as a "core" force, using Legions points, and sticking the "allies" bit as Auxilia, Marines etc to support them. have also considered going for 50% from one faction as base, not 70%, with the proviso that if thats marines, then 50% is one legion and any other legions come under the "allied" 50%
Seems like lazy design, again. Why not just swap the % with the regular game?? like core formations must be Knights/Titans and up to 30% of allies (SA, SM infantry, tanks...).
Do we want skew lists to ruin balance?
Also, in Titandeath games, what is the point of using non-Engine killer weapons? none.
3 non-engine killer hits kill warhound just fine.
Also engine killer weapons tend to have low ROF. You struggle to get through shields binking one shield at the time.
given three predators are capable of bringing a warhound down in one round of shooting (6 shots and 6 potential wounds) I don't think the "god engines" are a terribly practical option, and the "titandeath" stuff is needed to stop then facing off against every Vanquisher ever printed in a single game
there are plenty of weapons able to bring shields down, largely because they are also the weapons you need to splat conventional armour
I can see aircraft being good as well, harder to hit back and generally decent rate of fire with decent anti-armour weapons
Warlords may have a better time of it but the time I have gone against a knight I wasn't that impressed, and the easy way to neutralise a warhound when facing that in a normal game was to ignore it, the thing didn't have enough fire output for its points compared to armour to ever be at the top of the list of things that had to die
The additional titan stuff leaves me cold, as the rules for them in the game are pretty lacking compared to both AT and previous versions of Epic, but I can absolutely understand why they would want to pull in AT players and their collections (or at least get them there are opponents of Legions collectors).
I agree about the Titans, but I've so far been impressed with the Knight rules and cautiously optimistic about how House armies will be represented in this new mode.
Thing with both knights and Titans, and some of the "super heavy" stuff like Baneblades is they need more wounds on the profile
Baneblade could do with at least three, to say its the same as the Malcador when its twice the size feels wrong
ditto knights and especially titans, you should be able to chip away at them, giving them a chance to pull back to safety, but to say both are presented as incredible machines requiring significant investment to produce, the fact they go down more easily than a tank squadron feels wrong
Seems like lazy design, again. Why not just swap the % with the regular game?? like core formations must be Knights/Titans and up to 30% of allies (SA, SM infantry, tanks...).
Do we want skew lists to ruin balance?
Also, in Titandeath games, what is the point of using non-Engine killer weapons? none.
3 non-engine killer hits kill warhound just fine.
Also engine killer weapons tend to have low ROF. You struggle to get through shields binking one shield at the time.
Which balance are you talking about? have you seen the points costs of the detachments? there is no balance to be skewed.
And engine killer is +X wounds, they drop shields even more efficiently than normal weapons.
And 3 non-engine-killer hits won't kill a Warhound, as it has 2+ armour save.
leopard wrote: Thing with both knights and Titans, and some of the "super heavy" stuff like Baneblades is they need more wounds on the profile
Baneblade could do with at least three, to say its the same as the Malcador when its twice the size feels wrong
ditto knights and especially titans, you should be able to chip away at them, giving them a chance to pull back to safety, but to say both are presented as incredible machines requiring significant investment to produce, the fact they go down more easily than a tank squadron feels wrong
Yeah 100% agreed. It feels so weird to have Baneblades with the same number of wounds as a Knight Armiger. If they can't have more wounds then these units should at least get a 1+ save.
SU-152 wrote: And engine killer is +X wounds, they drop shields even more efficiently than normal weapons.
Are you implying that an engine killer weapon will drop multiple void shields in one shot? If so you might want to read those rules again.
SU-152 wrote: Seems like lazy design, again. Why not just swap the % with the regular game?? like core formations must be Knights/Titans and up to 30% of allies (SA, SM infantry, tanks...).
Did you just claim this is "lazy design" because they wrote a multiple page new supplement instead of swapping two numbers around?
And engine killer is +X wounds, they drop shields even more efficiently than normal weapons.
And 3 non-engine-killer hits won't kill a Warhound, as it has 2+ armour save.
Engine Killer removes Wounds after a failed saving throw, Void Shields negate Hits before saves are made. You're better off with high ROF weapons to break shields.
I think Leopard was referring to the possibility that three Predators can bring a Warhound down in one salvo. Unlikely, but possible - which it will happen somewhere. I'm sure someone can provide a percentage.
3 shots on a 4+, call it one hit, 3 shots on a 4+ with a reroll, call it two hits - both shields down and then one save at -1 - 50/50 on doing a wound
can't be bothered to load the Monte-Carlo software with it.
however if then a second units fires its a bad day to be a warhound
given how shields work its either have several units able to fire, and fire them until the big boy goes bang, or don't bother at all
and thats just three, or maybe six predators, decent unit of Kratos and was fun knowing you
naturally the titan has a decent chance to extract its pound of armoured flesh first
personally, give the big boys more wounds and/or make the void shield not auto drop when an AP-1 weapon hits it, but give it a 2+ save.
points adjusted of course but it means the big sods need other big sods or a lot of smaller sods to deal with them
Engine Killer is interesting, makes things a lot less predictable as its not three saves from three wounds its one save, fail it and take three (as an example).
though quite why it needed a special rule and not just assign a damage rating to weapons is beyond me
SU-152 wrote: Seems like lazy design, again. Why not just swap the % with the regular game?? like core formations must be Knights/Titans and up to 30% of allies (SA, SM infantry, tanks...).
Did you just claim this is "lazy design" because they wrote a multiple page new supplement instead of swapping two numbers around?
Lazy resign and bloated rules are not mutually exclusive.
If they are following the Necromunda sales model they have an awful lot of books to fill, so crisp efficient writing is not actually a benefit for them.
SU-152 wrote: [
Which balance are you talking about? have you seen the points costs of the detachments? there is no balance to be skewed.
Detachments don't have cost. Titans have.
And skew lists every time screw balance.
And engine killer is +X wounds, they drop shields even more efficiently than normal weapons.
Bwahahaha. You might want to read the rules again. You need to FAIL SAVE for engine killer. YOU DON'T ROLL A SAVE FOR A VOID SHIELD. Engine killer rule doesn't come into play. Volcano cannon drops 1 shield.
Which funny enough is how void shields have been described as working for decades. Doesn't matter how big hit it is. 1 hit is 1 shield. Volcano cannon isn't any better removing shield than lascannon. Hence why high rate of fire been essential to drop shields for decades.
Like here. Shoot volcano cannons 1/shield all you will. Meanwhile I shoot at you with warhound 2 vulcan mega bolter for 20 shots for 9 shield drops and then hit you with volcano cannons. Boom.
And 3 non-engine-killer hits won't kill a Warhound, as it has 2+ armour save.
Ah yes. Engine killer after all ignores all saves and there's no such thing as AP in the game.
tauist wrote: I hope the epub releases the same time as the physical book, as has been the case so far for LI.
What do people use for epubs? Does everyone just have a tablet by default these days? Do you edit out all the waffle between the rules to make it easier to navigate?
A laptop doesn't really seem convenient for wargaming, and I imagine my ereader (old Kindle) won't be able to do anything with it.
I use the built in app called Books (iPad M1 256GB), but I hear Google Books is the app to use on Android. Several other apps do not display GW authored epubs correctly, which is hardly surprising if you take a peek inside one of them I swear they deliberately code their XHTML to be an absolute mess like that in order to make ripping stuff more difficult..
For me personally, a slate device which holds all rulebooks, codexes and army lists is mandatory for playing GW games. You need so many books, and there are so many erratas, it'd be a nightmare juggling all that with physical paper products. YMMV
leopard wrote: could also be that that box is due to be combined with another and released that way
Possible.
I sure hope. I would like to get that for terrain but didn't get chance(for one local FLGS literally got 0...And by the time even store found out that it was sold out everywhere).
I think they're going to re-package it as a combo with intact civitas. As great a box as the ruins is, you actually get quite a bit in it, I built over 12 ruins from the single box, which for sure made me think it would have been more useful if half the sprues were intact civ and the other half ruin. As nice a set as the ruin box is, you also start to notice it's mostly the same side with 4 sets of windows ruined over and over and over with the small exception of a few sides with doors. Even with 12 ruins, I started to get a bit of a sameness to them.
As great/useful as the ruin box is/was, without, myself, having civitas parts on hand it just was a lot more limited in what could be made, so based on nothing other than a gut feeling, if ever we were going to see combo kit of 2 or more existing terrain boxes, ruined and intact civ I feel is the most likely.
drbored wrote: Having seen an all-titan game versus space marines at 3k points, Titans are actually far squishier than people think. The titans were tabled by turn 2 in LI by the space marines.
So, it'll be interesting to see how the larger LI titan games will go. I imagine it much like chess, where big titans get removed turn by turn. It'll be a fun thing to do.
Some of y'all like "ugh this titan game is worse than the other titan game" and I'm over here like "Holy feck TWO TITAN GAMES"
Just curious if that game was aircraft-heavy. Its just that a warcom article had mentioned that each type of unit had a role to play, and that aircraft were effective against Titans.
The space marines had 2 thunderhawks. So I wouldn't say it was 'aircraft heavy', but those turbo lasers really did hurt the titans quite a bit.
The previous big box set of civitas terrain read that as well, but then came back in stock.
The system is set to auto-flag things as 'sold out online' if stock levels get too low, then an operator has to manually uncheck the flag to switch it to 'temporarily out of stock' or restocks will unflag the product automatically.
The previous big box set of civitas terrain read that as well, but then came back in stock.
The system is set to auto-flag things as 'sold out online' if stock levels get too low, then an operator has to manually uncheck the flag to switch it to 'temporarily out of stock' or restocks will unflag the product automatically.
RazorEdge wrote: The next Sunday preview ins online... and still no further Releases for LI...
We know there is a preorder coming this month with the "The Great Slaughter" book (and very likely many other things)
They also said "later this month instead of something like "very soon" in last Thursdays article so I didn't expect it next Saturday and also wouldn't expect it the following Saturday. The 27th, the last Saturday in January, is the most likely candidate.
So no reason to expect anything until then, especially since there are many other things they still need to release like the Dark Angels army set and AoS Dawnbringers 4 with FEC (one of those will likely be on the 20th with the other one being after LI on the 3rd)
leopard wrote: Expecting last Saturday in January here too for the next book, and hopefully a few more boxes for the stuff not yet available out of the starter
I expect anything still missing from the first wave so the two support boxes the solo tank releases and the missing Titan/Knight/Aircraft kits.
The book itself will likely have rules for most if not all the currently revealed stuff but I only expect maybe 1-2 kits of those things now with the rest trickling in slowly over the next months in the same way we already had rules for the support box stuff even thought the kits itself took 2 months longer
leopard wrote: Expecting last Saturday in January here too for the next book, and hopefully a few more boxes for the stuff not yet available out of the starter
I expect anything still missing from the first wave so the two support boxes the solo tank releases and the missing Titan/Knight/Aircraft kits.
The book itself will likely have rules for most if not all the currently revealed stuff but I only expect maybe 1-2 kits of those things now with the rest trickling in slowly over the next months in the same way we already had rules for the support box stuff even thought the kits itself took 2 months longer
totally agree, we are about to get another book with rules for stuff we won't get our paws on for a while except via alternative means
Do you think theres anything further in the Great Slaughter book, unit wise, that hasn't already been previewed? Wondering if things like the Fellblade, Glaive, Falchion, Typhon, Cerberus, Land Raider Proteus, etc. etc. will be coming with The Great Slaughter or if we will be waiting longer.
chaos0xomega wrote: Do you think theres anything further in the Great Slaughter book, unit wise, that hasn't already been previewed? Wondering if things like the Fellblade, Glaive, Falchion, Typhon, Cerberus, Land Raider Proteus, etc. etc. will be coming with The Great Slaughter or if we will be waiting longer.
There might be 1-2 more kits but only if they actually show them on the Heresy Thursdays until the preorder (if its on the 27th there are 3 more Thursdays) There will be nothing in the book they haven't revealed before. Currently SM have 10 units coming. Meanwhile SA have 6 (if Medusa/Basilisk are two different units instead of just weapon options) units but I think the Malcador Infernus and Valdor Tank Hunters might not be in the book as everything else was revealed nearly weekly while there was a 1 month pause between those two and the Dracosan. So the Dracosan might be the cutoff point for stuff in the book. But if the two Malcador versions are in I could see another SA kit to even it out a bit.
Chopstick wrote: There're still Dominus knight. The last pattern yet to be made.
Did they already exist in 30k? The last time I saw the discussion about Dominus pattern for Titanicus somebody said they weren't around back then. (Its also not in the HH rules as far as I can see)
Chopstick wrote: There're still Dominus knight. The last pattern yet to be made.
Did they already exist in 30k? The last time I saw the discussion about Dominus pattern for Titanicus somebody said they weren't around back then.
(Its also not in the HH rules as far as I can see)
After all, the Imperial Knights pre-date the Imperium and the tragic events of the Horus Heresy, so these mighty war machines would certainly have marched to war along with their fellow Knights.
I'm guessing that the Dominus will be introduced to Legions, Titanicus and Horus Heresy further down the line...
Titanicus; the Porphyrions are yet to return to sale, and their terminal pack is still sold out. Given that the Acastus is no longer allowed in lances( unless in the Senechal's banner ), then the Dominus is the only other firepower knight to replace it. I can see a new terminal pack that includes both Acastus and Dominus knights, as they're both big on armour and firepower.
Legions; probably introduced in White Dwarf, then a supplement later on.
Horus Heresy; Probably waiting until they can do a repackaged 30K kit, and maybe the focus of a campaign supplement.
Yah there's a lot still to push out and I'm quite curious to see how GW does it.
LI is a specialist game, and their releases might piggyback alongside other releases, big or small. Much like how this coming Saturday is a mix of AoS, Bloodbowl, and the title object: End and the Death 3.
I wouldn't be disappointed if we got a drip-feed of things, as long as it is some sort of *feed* so we can get the support boxes, other transports, and titans and other stuff that haven't come back in stock or been put on sale yet.
WRT the Dominus, keep in mind that there still seems to be a bit of a GW/FW divide with regard to designs that are included in specialist games. With Aeronautica Imperialis for example, they opted to primarily include FW flyers at the expense of GW designs. The Tau didn't get sunshark bombers or razor sharks or whatever, for example, space marines didn't get most (any?) of the GW plastic flyers (of which there are quite a few), eldar only got hemlock wraithfighters and crimson hunters later on down the line, and only in resin, etc. The Dominus has been curiously missing from AT for years now, etc.
chaos0xomega wrote: WRT the Dominus, keep in mind that there still seems to be a bit of a GW/FW divide with regard to designs that are included in specialist games. With Aeronautica Imperialis for example, they opted to primarily include FW flyers at the expense of GW designs. The Tau didn't get sunshark bombers or razor sharks or whatever, for example, space marines didn't get most (any?) of the GW plastic flyers (of which there are quite a few), eldar only got hemlock wraithfighters and crimson hunters later on down the line, and only in resin, etc. The Dominus has been curiously missing from AT for years now, etc.
Questoris is fully included in HH in both scales and Dominus is excluded, my money is on this being a conscious choice, for whatever reason, and will persist. If they were going to add the Dominus in the lifespan of this edition it would have been in the HH Mechanicum book, as they did with the Questoris, complete with a new HH branded box cover and HH transfer sheet.
lord_blackfang wrote: To my memory, previous to HH 2.0, only the Trygon and Valkyrie were FW to GW ports? And now the Tauros Venator?
Manticore, Hydra, Baneblade and most variants (a few were created for the plastic kit), Death Korps, iirc a couple of the Leman Russ variants were originally resin variants (exterminator and Vanquisher iirc), iirc some variant of the dakkajet? I believe the drop pod was a resin kit first, iirc a couple of now defunct space marine kits may have started out as FW kits, winged hive tyrants iirc started out forgeworld, technically the winged tyranid prime (via the FW winged warriors), Tau Prianhas were forgeworld first... theres probably a couple other things that I missed.
Some quick thoughts for the first half of the year...
Just pondering if The Great Slaughter will be accompanied with the Titan bundle and Direwolves, and then a Knight focused supplement would be released afterwards with the Knight bundle and reintroducing the Porphyrion kit. We're also missing the repackaged Warbringer and Warmaster kits...
The only thing is that AT is still pending at least one supplement for renegade banners, so maybe it will be all-in with The Great Slaughter, and an AT book a little later. With the Direwolves being released as a plastic kit of two, we might see new maniples for them...
It's all up in the air. The LI situation has been pretty unprecedented and it's really tough to say how GW is going to try to push all this out.
We don't know how quickly GW wants to get it all out there, how much has already been produced that's waiting to be distributed, what other release schedule items are competing for those slots, etc etc. It's already wild that we're getting an expansion this month, when I'd expect such a thing 3 months from now. There's also so much that's still out of stock that people are waiting for to actually /start/ their LI forces, let alone add to them.
So, we'll see how it all goes. IMO, Great Slaughter can't come fast enough.
drbored wrote: It's all up in the air. The LI situation has been pretty unprecedented and it's really tough to say how GW is going to try to push all this out.
We don't know how quickly GW wants to get it all out there, how much has already been produced that's waiting to be distributed, what other release schedule items are competing for those slots, etc etc. It's already wild that we're getting an expansion this month, when I'd expect such a thing 3 months from now. There's also so much that's still out of stock that people are waiting for to actually /start/ their LI forces, let alone add to them.
So, we'll see how it all goes. IMO, Great Slaughter can't come fast enough.
I know 2 people still waiting on core sets from original pre orders from 3rd party retailers (well known ones).
tneva82 wrote: Seeing legionswa supposed to be out in august supplement in january isn't that odd.
this is pretty much my thinking, the stuff planned for the second half of 2023 is in catchup mode but it appears to be that the 2024 plans are going ahead as scheduled
I wonder how long it is going to be until the release legion specific books, there are many many types of infantry not covered so far. I wonder how they will differentiate all the specific units, there aren't really a whole lot of stats to play with.
Andrew1975 wrote: I wonder how long it is going to be until the release legion specific books, there are many many types of infantry not covered so far. I wonder how they will differentiate all the specific units, there aren't really a whole lot of stats to play with.
I hope not, the legions are already quite unbalanced. My own legions was chosen more for ease of painting its with infiltrate being so broken its really really strong (raven guard).
I really think the focus should be on units, because by default with 30% allies every new unit can in theory be taken by anyone as allies. I think I'm more interested in the combined arms than special units, that strikes more of a 30k thing.
I just want artillery and transport for my aux more than anything.
Yeah, LI doesn't need expanded Legion rules. Like, we may eventually see little resin primarchs with their little resin retinues, but those are going to be a tiny thing on the table that could be potentially blown away by a well placed volcano cannon shot, so why bother?
I really hope we don't see them focus on specific Legions with unique books like they do for 40K/HH. I feel like yes they can go down that pathway, but when you consider how many of the model differences would just be on the troops and the paint colour, that's a lot of "tiny" differences to spot.
The larger tanks, vehicles and titans stand out way more so and they are pretty generic across most legions. Enough that whilst we might see a few legion specific releases, I don't wnat to see them lean into it.
Then again that's also because I'd like to see them flesh out something OTHER than Marines in this game. If they go down the legions pathway then that means a LOT of attention on Marines alone. At the very least if they don't go that pathway then other factions can rise up in the design space.
I honestly don't want all the added fluff layer rules of AT, that stuff just weighs the game down. I' actually happy i don't have to care what legio my titan is painted as in LI, I'm happy there's not a whole other layer of titan legion rules to have to contend with and obsess over.
Would much rather see them add in other factions. Mechanicum, Custodes, Daemons of the Ruinstorm, even Imperial Militia could be added in as different factions with lots of different strategy and weapons added in for flair.
drbored wrote: Would much rather see them add in other factions. Mechanicum, Custodes, Daemons of the Ruinstorm, even Imperial Militia could be added in as different factions with lots of different strategy and weapons added in for flair.
I feel like any more factions I'd prefer as allied formations than stand alone factions. The internal balance is already sorta not great for either faction.
Well I think it just needs the basic roster padding out and a fairly full complement of the basics like Land Raiders, jet bikes, artillery for the Solars - so hopefully all stuff that is included in Great Slaughter.
Right now it just feels like a beta version of the game, which is fine for some fun smaller point games to get used to the mechanics, but you can't fully commit and get your teeth into it.
Pacific wrote: Well I think it just needs the basic roster padding out and a fairly full complement of the basics like Land Raiders, jet bikes, artillery for the Solars - so hopefully all stuff that is included in Great Slaughter.
Right now it just feels like a beta version of the game, which is fine for some fun smaller point games to get used to the mechanics, but you can't fully commit and get your teeth into it.
Well not many players can buy everything at once.
I mean if GW had released all in wave 1 AND everything we know coming still could YOU buy every kit at least one, preferably multiples?
If not then you are the kind of customer why GW spreads releases They want you to buy everything and everything they release should be bought when it's released(the crunch time of releases being when they are released).
I ordered some civitas imperialis ruins on pre order. They've finally dispatched from element games in the UK. I've just checked their site and they have 10+ available to order for dispatch next week. Just thought I'd mention it in case anybody wanted some. Hopefully other shops will also be getting stock now too.
Pacific wrote: Well I think it just needs the basic roster padding out and a fairly full complement of the basics like Land Raiders, jet bikes, artillery for the Solars - so hopefully all stuff that is included in Great Slaughter.
Right now it just feels like a beta version of the game, which is fine for some fun smaller point games to get used to the mechanics, but you can't fully commit and get your teeth into it.
It need to also contend with the internal stuff before piling on too much. Without even getting into the specifics of new factions, if the new factions have too many auto take a and b option detachments it won't help things.
tneva82 wrote: Well not many players can buy everything at once.
But surely they could have proxied stuff to test, had it been included in the core lists, right?
It doesn't feel like much was tested too heavily, the mandate seems to be from a design ethos "make stuff die easy, get them to buy a lot" and that's prefectly fair for a mass battle game where they're trying to sell it as 3000pts. The problem is it makes low to mid level point games possibly feel very off.
The missions scream "lets not complicate things, get your stuff on the board and get fighting".
The total control for deep strike and out flank is odd, but odder still is the total control for infiltrate.
I guess I'm saying whole areas appear to be sorta paved over for speed. And that's not entirely bad either. But people do notice deep strike is way too strong as is, and that's not likely to get better with drop pods, seeing as just about anything can be spammed in this game for better or worse.
The ultimate balancer is simply that anything you want to field even if its not in your main faction is 30% allie slot away, so that actually does do a bit for balance. If you play marines and are tired of ogryns kicking your but, take some as allies. Bombers always a pain, take some of those. It's like 30k in that respect. Which does help.
The problem is, the gap between plastic armies with limiations purely from availablility (its been popular and hard to find on shelvse) but peopel printing really can printer go brrrr 50 vanquishers of the want. We'll soon see the extremes tested and just from theory hammering on list builders, the game has no limits if you don't limit the amount of formations. Even then its very very open as even 1 formation could be as little 70pts or as much as over 3k, some stuff may need to be considered like highlander style limits of no more than 3 detachments of any one unit type or limiting max unit sizes ect.
Infiltrate needs a massive fix or a scenario that limits it only in that context.
If GW included all the rules in the core set and released all the models at once (assuming they would even be able to do that) it would be too much for people to buy everything at the same time and since most sales are happening at release they would lose sales. If GW included all the rules but didn't release all the models, people would just find other ways to get those models, either through 3D printing or proxies and while some might buy the official kits when they release, many would just stay with their solution which would also mean lost sales. So the only way to get the most sales is staggering both models and their rules, its as easy as that. Of course there are for sure also other reasons why what they are doing is bad or makes sense but even with just this explanation it makes complete sense why things are happening the way they are
Big Boxed Set, with some rules for Eldar, Marines and Orks.
Then came the army rules across boxes like Armies of the Imperium, Ork & Squat Warlords etc. Each of those had model releases associated.
But we also got WD rules additions, and matching models. For instance Flyers first came in WD, as did the Revenant Titans for sure.
It’s the same concept as 40K and AoS Codexes/Battle Tomes, just carried out differently. A way to stagger releases, and drive new sales into the future.
I can see why it annoys folk though, and I’m not saying “so STFU”. But there is a logic to it all.
Matrindur wrote: If GW included all the rules in the core set and released all the models at once (assuming they would even be able to do that) it would be too much for people to buy everything at the same time and since most sales are happening at release they would lose sales.
If GW included all the rules but didn't release all the models, people would just find other ways to get those models, either through 3D printing or proxies and while some might buy the official kits when they release, many would just stay with their solution which would also mean lost sales.
So the only way to get the most sales is staggering both models and their rules, its as easy as that.
Of course there are for sure also other reasons why what they are doing is bad or makes sense but even with just this explanation it makes complete sense why things are happening the way they are
I agree on the first point that most had limited funds at the time of release so even if gw had a full release people can only buy so much, on the second point however 3d printing hasn't made a dent in demand and supply has been a major issue, furthermore i've seen photos with a 100 3d printed tanks and there's still plastic tanks and thunderhawks and planes in the picture as well and some of these people are only printing precisely because they can only get so many plastic boxes.
It's also fair to say people are already printing models that don't have rules either way because between the warcom articles that preceded the delayed release and the book artwork that has a certain signature style that appear to demarcate units box art, we can fairly assume what is coming and will get rules in the great slaughter or the next book.
Land raiders/spartans/drop pods/bikes/speeders/jetbikes/dracosan/basilisk/medusas possibly terrax and autocannon/plasma turret russes as well. These are also things some epic players may already have models/files of. And this world is so crazy many will still buy new plastics because they're cool.
Big Boxed Set, with some rules for Eldar, Marines and Orks.
Then came the army rules across boxes like Armies of the Imperium, Ork & Squat Warlords etc. Each of those had model releases associated.
But we also got WD rules additions, and matching models. For instance Flyers first came in WD, as did the Revenant Titans for sure.
It’s the same concept as 40K and AoS Codexes/Battle Tomes, just carried out differently. A way to stagger releases, and drive new sales into the future.
I can see why it annoys folk though, and I’m not saying “so STFU”. But there is a logic to it all.
Thing is, Epic 40k had all armies in the core, from the get go. And E:A had full, complete list of the armies it included.
I'm not saying they should have included all the armies, but I'd rather have had full lists of what they decided to include. That, or specify that the core lists are only "get you by" ones.
Big Boxed Set, with some rules for Eldar, Marines and Orks.
Then came the army rules across boxes like Armies of the Imperium, Ork & Squat Warlords etc. Each of those had model releases associated.
But we also got WD rules additions, and matching models. For instance Flyers first came in WD, as did the Revenant Titans for sure.
It’s the same concept as 40K and AoS Codexes/Battle Tomes, just carried out differently. A way to stagger releases, and drive new sales into the future.
I can see why it annoys folk though, and I’m not saying “so STFU”. But there is a logic to it all.
Releasing stuff in white dwarf is a double edged sword, it undoubtedly is a welcome thing for those who pick it up or have a subscription, but for some games it really can be a bit annoying, for titanicus there was some exclusive stratagem card . That legions battle report I also fear did some damage in that it scared some prospective players off by the sheer scale of it but also making it seem like the games baseline starting point.
lord_blackfang wrote: HH and ToW had no issues releasing complete rules far, far ahead of models tho.
Sort of?
There's existing old world sculpts, even if not for sale, which give them some IP protection for the units in question. For HH 2.0 specifically - same again, they're converting existing minis over largely so there's not much to have to worry about. The HH 1.0 releases were a bit riskier but even then the older marks of marine armour existed in some format, the various gear was represented in some format they could protect and largely I aren't sure they cared given it was largely (in my opinion) a game for "expert hobbyists with a love of warhammer and lots of cash" who likely wanted official stuff for everything anyway.
lord_blackfang wrote: HH and ToW had no issues releasing complete rules far, far ahead of models tho.
Sort of?
There's existing old world sculpts, even if not for sale, which give them some IP protection for the units in question. For HH 2.0 specifically - same again, they're converting existing minis over largely so there's not much to have to worry about. The HH 1.0 releases were a bit riskier but even then the older marks of marine armour existed in some format, the various gear was represented in some format they could protect and largely I aren't sure they cared given it was largely (in my opinion) a game for "expert hobbyists with a love of warhammer and lots of cash" who likely wanted official stuff for everything anyway.
If that's a justification, so are these:
Unless you mean "in production"... and even then a big number of things in the big HH 2 books were (and are) not in production.
As for ToW... well. The whole point o a lot of it is getting stuff back into production, so... but the stats will be there from the start too.
lord_blackfang wrote: HH and ToW had no issues releasing complete rules far, far ahead of models tho.
Sort of?
There's existing old world sculpts, even if not for sale, which give them some IP protection for the units in question. For HH 2.0 specifically - same again, they're converting existing minis over largely so there's not much to have to worry about. The HH 1.0 releases were a bit riskier but even then the older marks of marine armour existed in some format, the various gear was represented in some format they could protect and largely I aren't sure they cared given it was largely (in my opinion) a game for "expert hobbyists with a love of warhammer and lots of cash" who likely wanted official stuff for everything anyway.
If that's a justification, so are these:
Unless you mean "in production"... and even then a big number of things in the big HH 2 books were (and are) not in production.
As for ToW... well. The whole point o a lot of it is getting stuff back into production, so... but the stats will be there from the start too.
Mostly I think they're intentionally going with different sales models for different games, for whatever reason. LI got the short end of the stick, along with early Necromunda, on the extreme end of the mandatory DLC treadmill axis, with HH and ToW sitting comfy on the other far end with just the core rulebook and a faction book giving you the full game experience for probably several years, as long as you can scrounge up the models on your own.
Andrew1975 wrote: I wonder how long it is going to be until the release legion specific books...
Based on the other "specialist" games, I don't think they will be releasing these. LI will likely get a Loyalist book and a Traitor book eventually, but not soon. I expect them to continue the pattern of campaign books that introduce more and more units over time and eventually a new, consolidated main rulebook.
Dudeface wrote:I'd agree, unsure if it relates to the scale?
I honestly don't think that's the case.
lord_blackfang wrote:Mostly I think they're intentionally going with different sales models for different games, for whatever reason. LI got the short end of the stick, along with early Necromunda, on the extreme end of the mandatory DLC treadmill axis, with HH and ToW sitting comfy on the other far end with just the core rulebook and a faction book giving you the full game experience for probably several years, as long as you can scrounge up the models on your own.
This though... yeah >_>. It's just my luck that the GW games I'm most interested in and have the fondest memories with are the ones that are getting the full DLC train.
Quick info for anyone interested, the Civitas Administratum Sector that showed "Sold out online" for a long time now, which would normally mean its gone and won't come back, is back to just "Temporarily out of stock". So while we don't know what happened it shouldn't be permanently out of stock anymore and will be back in stock in the future.
And while the Civitas Ruins still show up as "Sold out online" its pretty likely they too will switch to temporarily out of stock and be back in stock in the future which should be good news for anyone who didn't manage to get one the first time
Has anyone built a Civitas Administratum Sector? I'm tempted to get one, but I don't have a good gauge for how much it builds. Is it as much as you'd want to fill a 5x4 table? Or would you go for 2 sets?
Maybe one day I'll get around to printing the Cy-Tilez set instead of GW's set, but as cool as they look and how cheap they are versus GW terrain, they are time consuming to print and need the printer super well dialled in (which mine isn't!).
I don't know whether to be happy or sad, I never finished painting my resin ones
The resin ones were a bit crap though, mine had 3D printer lines on them and supports that were clearly 3D printer supports rather than typical resin casting vents.
Guess I'll grab a box, always wanted more for Aeronautica anyway and was never willing to pay resin prices to get a lot of them.
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