Via natfka:

There has been beta testing going on for a summer campaign, and today is the first reporting of it I have seen. Of course its still in its beta form, but is being tested at several locations, a couple of which are in the US. (I have not heard of any others elsewhere yet).


Please take this as a rumor as nothing official has been announced, but this is not the first I have hard of this campaign. Quite some time ago we had rumors that one was coming, and that it would hit this summer.

via the Son of Dorn on the Most Perturbatory
http://perturbatory.blogspot.com/2014/01/new-gw-campaign-conquest-of.html
Well, as I predicted, it seems Games Workshop is reaching back out to us with a new Campaign. Centered around the Dark Vengeance set, it's a low points event for some fairly casual play. However, it's still in beta.

The Gamer's Haven, in Spokane, Washington has the privilege, alongside approximately 12 other stores, (that we're aware of) of beta testing the missions. Apparently a community of over 200 people does count for something. Upon the success of the test event, it'll be rolled out nationally. Check out the details below:

"On the remote imperial planet of Kaiserslautern VI in a distant sector the servants of the Dark Gods open a new chapter in their unending campaign to destroy the Imperium of Man. Having planted the seeds of rebellion among the populace for centuries, Chaos Lord Krannon the Relentless is now ready to reap the bitter harvest. There is still hope, however, for the citizens loyal to the Emperor. Company Master Balthasar and his Dark Angels stand ready to defend Kaiserslautern VI with their very lives, if necessary. The fate of the planet is now in your hands. It is time to choose sides and once again let slip the dogs of war."

You will need a few things to play, mainly a small army that uses a modified Force Organization chart.
- 600 point army that has 1 HQ, 1-2 Troops, 0-1 Elite, 0-1 Fast Attack, 0-1 Heavy Support, and 1 swing slot that can add 1 more slot on any part of the Force Organization chart. Alternatively, you may use either one of the armies from the Dark Vengeance Starter Set. The Dark Angels player may not use the Limited Edition Chaplain however.
- 1-2 additional Basic Troop choices without upgrades, such as Kabalite Warriors, a Space Marine Tactical Squad, Chaos Cultists, etc. These should be in addition to your 600 point list as they will be added to your army later in the event.
- 1 Fast Attack choice without upgrades
- 1 Elite choice without upgrades

All of these unit are important as this is a story driven campaign that starts with a few small games and builds up larger as you get further into the story. The actual missions will be posted in the store, and score sheets for the event will be handed out on the nights of the event. This is designed as a fun and friendly event, so feel free to come out and have a great time with us. There will be small participation prizes for everyone who shows up such as lanyards and patches, so come out and get some free loot as well!

Well, I am excited and hope it is true, not only because I do love small point games but a global campaign sounds really fun.

Cool, nice to see GW do something with the community in mind. GW gets flakk when they deserve it, and praise when it is warranted.

Really? A global campaign named after a small german hellhole of a city? You gotta be kidding ...

I think it was less about the actual city and more about the name.

 Weltenwolf wrote:
Really? A global campaign named after a small german hellhole of a city? You gotta be kidding ...

Just looked this up. Wow. Way to go Geedubs you funny buggers.



This could be interesting. Keeping the eyes peeled.

 Weltenwolf wrote:
Really? A global campaign named after a small german hellhole of a city? You gotta be kidding ...

You never heard about the infamous greater deamon Zahnarzt, didn't you ?

Sounds like a cool way of getting new players in.

Think it just looks to be something with that in mind, rather than anything that could even come close to matching the majesty that was the Eye of Terror campaign!

I think someone at Nottingham HQ was watching the Bundesliga highlights on ITV4 and something has stuck subconsciously...

The format seems rather small ?

Maybe they meant Kaiserschlacht after the Spring offensive in 1918?

I guess Kaiserslautern and Birmingham (of RT fame) are in the same sector?

 Alkasyn wrote:
The format seems rather small ?

It seems to be intended to be a newbie intro campaign with point sizes aimed at allowing a new player to use the starter set army.

That said, they're incredibly stupid rules. Without limits on AV 14/flyers/etc it's going to be a rock/paper/scissors match to see whether your opponent brought an answer to your "death star" unit, and a newbie has no chance of winning. And the "basic unit with no upgrades" rules are even worse since they rule out lots of fluffy choices (yay, an IG veteran squad with no heavy or special weapons). I can imagine that the "extra" units are going to be used in "now add your extra fast attack choice to your 600 point list" games, which means it's going to be a competition to see who can make the most powerful free units that don't need upgrades to work.

I guess it might be kind of fun if everyone voluntarily refrains from bringing good lists, but that's not a very reasonable hope to have.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Alkasyn wrote:
The format seems rather small ?

It seems to be intended to be a newbie intro campaign with point sizes aimed at allowing a new player to use the starter set army.

That said, they're incredibly stupid rules. Without limits on AV 14/flyers/etc it's going to be a rock/paper/scissors match to see whether your opponent brought an answer to your "death star" unit, and a newbie has no chance of winning. And the "basic unit with no upgrades" rules are even worse since they rule out lots of fluffy choices (yay, an IG veteran squad with no heavy or special weapons). I can imagine that the "extra" units are going to be used in "now add your extra fast attack choice to your 600 point list" games, which means it's going to be a competition to see who can make the most powerful free units that don't need upgrades to work.

I guess it might be kind of fun if everyone voluntarily refrains from bringing good lists, but that's not a very reasonable hope to have.

Pergrine you have been told on several occasions that your WAAC, super-competative mindset in 40k is not usual. Most 40k players, especially those who play at Games Workshop stores, are casual and will be playing a fun game with whatever models they have painted that they think are cool, not spamming the most expensive, most powerful units around.

This actually seems like the sort of thing I would have loved when I was 12/13, I don't think it's aimed at oldies like me though. Still, good luck to them.

 Happygrunt wrote:

- 1 Fast Attack choice without upgrades

Uh ? So what is my Dominion Squad without upgrade going to look like ?

Anyway, clearly not made for competitive players, but designed for people that just want to have fun, and make something enjoyable from a fluff standpoint. I mean, it's “1-2 additional Basic Troop choices without upgrades”, without any point cost restriction, and that does include Grey Knight terminators, doesn't it ?

Could be fun.

I agree that units with no upgrades, with no point value associated, is not really a level playing field. Some things work great out of the box, others need a little bit more.

But we only have part of the picture here. 40k is easy to break. This looks to be an intro campaign, taken in that spirit I think it could be fun. Depending what the missions are, there might be a balancing factor we're unaware of.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Happygrunt wrote:

- 1 Fast Attack choice without upgrades

Uh ? So what is my Dominion Squad without upgrade going to look like ?

Anyway, clearly not made for competitive players, but designed for people that just want to have fun, and make something enjoyable from a fluff standpoint. I mean, it's “1-2 additional Basic Troop choices without upgrades”, without any point cost restriction, and that does include Grey Knight terminators, doesn't it ?

You will need a few things to play, mainly a small army that uses a modified Force Organization chart.
- 600 point army that has 1 HQ, 1-2 Troops, 0-1 Elite, 0-1 Fast Attack, 0-1 Heavy Support, and 1 swing slot that can add 1 more slot on any part of the Force Organization chart. Alternatively, you may use either one of the armies from the Dark Vengeance Starter Set. The Dark Angels player may not use the Limited Edition Chaplain however.
- 1-2 additional Basic Troop choices without upgrades, such as Kabalite Warriors, a Space Marine Tactical Squad, Chaos Cultists, etc. These should be in addition to your 600 point list as they will be added to your army later in the event.
- 1 Fast Attack choice without upgrades
- 1 Elite choice without upgrades

So you start off with a 600 point army list with an HQ, 1-2 Troops, 0-1 Elite, 0-1 Fast Attack, 0-1 Heavy Support and a "swing slot" that lets you add an extra slot onto any one part of the FOC.

Additionally you have the following:
1-2 additional Basic Troop choices with no upgrades
1 Fast Attack choice without upgrades
1 Elite choice without upgrades

These are supposed to be added to your 600 point list in the course of the event.

What likely would happen is that as the event wears on, you get upgrades for the additions in the course of play. It is a campaign after all, not a tournament.

xruslanx wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Alkasyn wrote:
The format seems rather small ?

It seems to be intended to be a newbie intro campaign with point sizes aimed at allowing a new player to use the starter set army.

That said, they're incredibly stupid rules. Without limits on AV 14/flyers/etc it's going to be a rock/paper/scissors match to see whether your opponent brought an answer to your "death star" unit, and a newbie has no chance of winning. And the "basic unit with no upgrades" rules are even worse since they rule out lots of fluffy choices (yay, an IG veteran squad with no heavy or special weapons). I can imagine that the "extra" units are going to be used in "now add your extra fast attack choice to your 600 point list" games, which means it's going to be a competition to see who can make the most powerful free units that don't need upgrades to work.

I guess it might be kind of fun if everyone voluntarily refrains from bringing good lists, but that's not a very reasonable hope to have.

Pergrine you have been told on several occasions that your WAAC, super-competative mindset in 40k is not usual. Most 40k players, especially those who play at Games Workshop stores, are casual and will be playing a fun game with whatever models they have painted that they think are cool, not spamming the most expensive, most powerful units around.

This actually seems like the sort of thing I would have loved when I was 12/13, I don't think it's aimed at oldies like me though. Still, good luck to them.

Peregrine has a really good point. It isn't a WAAC-mindest, it's being conscious of the pitfalls of severe imbalance. The weird limits on unit upgrades and lack of restrictions on flyers, armor values, etc make it even easier for people to accidentally or intentionally bring a list that crushes others without effort (or conversely, unknowingly bring a list with no chance of winning). Especially if this is supposed to be bringing new players in, who often have a very narrow and random selection of models to work from.

I don't understand how people like you can't see this. Pointing out and perhaps even fixing balance issues helps helps players of all kinds, but especially casual players.

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:

xruslanx wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Alkasyn wrote:
The format seems rather small ?

It seems to be intended to be a newbie intro campaign with point sizes aimed at allowing a new player to use the starter set army.

That said, they're incredibly stupid rules. Without limits on AV 14/flyers/etc it's going to be a rock/paper/scissors match to see whether your opponent brought an answer to your "death star" unit, and a newbie has no chance of winning. And the "basic unit with no upgrades" rules are even worse since they rule out lots of fluffy choices (yay, an IG veteran squad with no heavy or special weapons). I can imagine that the "extra" units are going to be used in "now add your extra fast attack choice to your 600 point list" games, which means it's going to be a competition to see who can make the most powerful free units that don't need upgrades to work.

I guess it might be kind of fun if everyone voluntarily refrains from bringing good lists, but that's not a very reasonable hope to have.

Pergrine you have been told on several occasions that your WAAC, super-competative mindset in 40k is not usual. Most 40k players, especially those who play at Games Workshop stores, are casual and will be playing a fun game with whatever models they have painted that they think are cool, not spamming the most expensive, most powerful units around.

This actually seems like the sort of thing I would have loved when I was 12/13, I don't think it's aimed at oldies like me though. Still, good luck to them.

Peregrine has a really good point. It isn't a WAAC-mindest, it's being conscious of the pitfalls of severe imbalance. The weird limits on unit upgrades and lack of restrictions on flyers, armor values, etc make it even easier for people to accidentally or intentionally bring a list that crushes others without effort (or conversely, unknowingly bring a list with no chance of winning). Especially if this is supposed to be bringing new players in, who often have a very narrow and random selection of models to work from.

I don't understand how people like you can't see this. Pointing out and perhaps even fixing balance issues helps helps players of all kinds, but especially casual players.

A hell drake can be realy hard to deal with in smaller point games, if you did not have the foresight to bring weapons and units to try and deal with it. Restricting unit upgrades make this issue even greater.

I don't think every person who might end up bringing a Helldrake had WAAC on their mind when doing so. plenty of people who like the model.

Again, from the way it's written, you're not "restricted from unit upgrades" for your 600 point list.

If that were true then the Dark Angels and Chaos Marine forces from Dark Vengeance would be illegal since they have unit upgrades in them.

The way it's written you're restricted from unit upgrades on your additional forces(the 1-2 additional Troops choices, the 1 Fast Attack choice, and the 1 Elite choice) that are on top of your 600 point list.

GW gets an E for effort, but failing grade on execution at the moment. Unless it addresses pitfalls of flyers or AV14 in a 600 pt unit game. A LR and a DW terminator squad is going to be a tough nut, as will flyers and other things.

The guy who brings an HQ and 2 tac sqauds and another item is going to be outclasses.

Seems like a shoddy attempt at Escalation that is already done quite well by local clubs. It is a shame they didn't put limits on the first 600 pts of:

Combined AV 35
Points limits in slots
No flyers

Just my two cents though, having played in more than a few Escalation leagues.

This global summer campaign seems kind of weird. Almost seems more like the kind of thing that used to be in a small booklet that you would actually get in your starter set to help you get started with playing games and to learn the rules.

"Thank you for purchasing Dark Vengeance: here is a set of missions to help you get started with the game of 40K using the contents of this box. Once you are familiar with the rules and the units in this box you can continue this campaign by purchasing these exciting other models that are part of our hobby to continue the campaign..."

So 10 TH/SS Terminators for that Elite slot then. AmIdoin'itrite?

I think we need to see more details before we start slating GW for their fluff driven, new player focused event.

Wait,what? I went to high school in Kaiserslauten, now it is a grimdark battlefield? I didn't think it was that bad.........

IT IS STILL IN BETA.



Don't panic.



I applause this effort by GW. I don't have to participate to appreciate.

carmachu wrote:Unless it addresses pitfalls of flyers or AV14 in a 600 pt unit game.

It is perfectly possible to deal with AV14 in a 600 points game, I can do it with my only available troop choice which can brings two melta and a twin-linked multi-melta on the table for some 140 points . But flyers is another thing completely. I can't deal with flyers at all, except for allies or fortifications, actually.
Still, I agree that AV14 is not exactly balanced for a 600 game, though. But so many other things are imbalanced in this game anyway…
I mean, if people can bring in some riptide, wraithknight and screamerstar, who cares if they can also bring AV14 ?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
So 10 TH/SS Terminators for that Elite slot then. AmIdoin'itrite?

My demolisher squadron wants a word

How many D weapons can one fit in 600 points, with the 1HQ 1Troop tax ?
Let's consider for the purpose of the argument that Lord of War and Fortifications are allowed.

Friendly reminder that, if rumors are true, this IS being beta tested, so the no flyers and an AV limit ideas may very well show up in the final product.

 Happygrunt wrote:
Friendly reminder that, if rumors are true, this IS being beta tested, so the no flyers and an AV limit ideas may very well show up in the final product.

Need also limits on models with a 2+ save, limits on model with T6+, and just something to prevent screamerstar.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Happygrunt wrote:
Friendly reminder that, if rumors are true, this IS being beta tested, so the no flyers and an AV limit ideas may very well show up in the final product.

Need also limits on models with a 2+ save, limits on model with T6+, and just something to prevent screamerstar.

I think you need to genuinely read what the original post says.

You have a 600 point list to work from. 1 HQ, 1-2 Troop choices, 0-1 Elite, 0-1 Heavy Support, and 0-1 Fast Attack.
That's it. 600 points from any Codex or either of the forces from the Dark Vengeance box.

You then take 1-2 additional Troop choices, 1 Fast Attack Choice, and 1 Elite choice. They all get no upgrades and from the way the wording of the OP describes it, are brought into play over the course of the campaign and not just always there.


So I think talking about how people are going to be doing any of the nonsense builds that you see on the Internet in 600 points when you have a mandatory HQ and a mandatory Troop choice is a bit silly. Especially when considering that many campaign style games would likely call for terrain and fortifications to be part of the scenarios played rather then being part of your army list.

When we talk about upgrades, the model should just be as it comes listed in its profile? No swapping stuff out even if the option is free?

 Medium of Death wrote:
When we talk about upgrades, the model should just be as it comes listed in its profile? No swapping stuff out even if the option is free?

I think, RAW, that's what "no upgrades" means, however I don't think anyone would have an issue with taking the "free" upgrades.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
How many D weapons can one fit in 600 points, with the 1HQ 1Troop tax ?
Let's consider for the purpose of the argument that Lord of War and Fortifications are allowed.

But they won't be allowed, as it specifically excludes those from the available items from the FoC.

And the quick answer is 0. I do not know of a single D-STR weapon that could be fielded with the tax at 600 points.

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
How many D weapons can one fit in 600 points, with the 1HQ 1Troop tax ?
Let's consider for the purpose of the argument that Lord of War and Fortifications are allowed.

But they won't be allowed, as it specifically excludes those from the available items from the FoC.

And the quick answer is 0. I do not know of a single D-STR weapon that could be fielded with the tax at 600 points.

Coteaz, 50 points of Henchmen, and a Shadowsword.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
How many D weapons can one fit in 600 points, with the 1HQ 1Troop tax ?
Let's consider for the purpose of the argument that Lord of War and Fortifications are allowed.

But they won't be allowed, as it specifically excludes those from the available items from the FoC.

And the quick answer is 0. I do not know of a single D-STR weapon that could be fielded with the tax at 600 points.

Coteaz, 50 points of Henchmen, and a Shadowsword.

Can't do it, the campaign FOC doesn't have a Lord of War slot.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say if your power listing at a fun new guy focused global campaign. You are probably a main contributor to some psychiatrist's children being put through an Ivy League school. Just saying is all...

Seeing as per the rumors it is a campaign of sorts. I can not see the driving hunger to destroy all that you come against at all costs really all that worth it if nothing is to be actually gained.
That being said flyer and MC spam (if that is possible) at 600pts could be extremely unfair. Whether it is achieved by accident or intention. So hopefully the play testers establish that problem in the testing phase. An hopefully some of the group are a little more ruthlessly minded so that the issue is discovered instead of a group of gamers with certain unspoken house rules in place already preventing them from noticing this potential issue.

The internet 40k community already noticing this issue I think says a lot about it.

Other than necrons...I don't really see how anyone is spamming flyers with a 0-1 Heavy choice. Most uber/best flyers are heavy choices and you only get one heavy choice period.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I welcome this event if it is done well. I don't quite think it will be as great as the Armageddon 3 campaign or the EoT campaign...but at least it's something interactive with the global community though.

 CaptKaruthors wrote:
Other than necrons...I don't really see how anyone is spamming flyers with a 0-1 Heavy choice. Most uber/best flyers are heavy choices and you only get one heavy choice period.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I welcome this event if it is done well. I don't quite think it will be as great as the Armageddon 3 campaign or the EoT campaign...but at least it's something interactive with the global community though.

Well, Tau can get 2 Riptides, Skyray, Fireblade and Fire Warriors in 600pts, and with the additional free stuff a third Riptide, a Sun Shark Bomber, and 20 Kroot. A perfectly fluffy army that fits the theme and background. Granted it'll table 99.8% of people at GW stores, but that's fluffy too because the Riptides win in every short story I've read.

I'm a fan of people getting together and playing more than usual. It's funny you mention the EoT campaign in which people were submitting hundreds of fake battle reports of Imperium losing in order to get the plot line moving.

 BrotherGecko wrote:

Seeing as per the rumors it is a campaign of sorts. I can not see the driving hunger to destroy all that you come against at all costs really all that worth it if nothing is to be actually gained.

Just to clarify, I wouldn't actually play such a list at such an event, but there's nothing preventing someone from doing so, as far as we know.

Well, Tau can get 2 Riptides, Skyray, Fireblade and Fire Warriors in 600pts

So? You have a pretty easily killable tank on the table and not many fire warriors protecting a fireblade. One thunderfire cannon hidden can cause problems for the firewarriors. I don't think that it would be that bad.

and with the additional free stuff a third Riptide, a Sun Shark Bomber, and 20 Kroot.

All of which has zero upgrades. Kroot not having sniper rounds kind of hurts...as well as no upgrades on the 3rd riptide.

A perfectly fluffy army that fits the theme and background. Granted it'll table 99.8% of people at GW stores,

I'm a fan of people getting together and playing more than usual. It's funny you mention the EoT campaign in which people were submitting hundreds of fake battle reports of Imperium losing in order to get the plot line moving.

I don't care if people cheated to get the plot moving. The interactivity of the website, the missions, the regions/ theater of war and international teamwork is what made that campaign compelling...not the results.

 CaptKaruthors wrote:

Well, Tau can get 2 Riptides, Skyray, Fireblade and Fire Warriors in 600pts

So? You have a pretty easily killable tank on the table and not many fire warriors protecting a fireblade. One thunderfire cannon hidden can cause problems for the firewarriors. I don't think that it would be that bad.

and with the additional free stuff a third Riptide, a Sun Shark Bomber, and 20 Kroot.

All of which has zero upgrades. Kroot not having sniper rounds kind of hurts...as well as no upgrades on the 3rd riptide.

A perfectly fluffy army that fits the theme and background. Granted it'll table 99.8% of people at GW stores,

I'm a fan of people getting together and playing more than usual. It's funny you mention the EoT campaign in which people were submitting hundreds of fake battle reports of Imperium losing in order to get the plot line moving.

I don't care if people cheated to get the plot moving. The interactivity of the website, the missions, the regions/ theater of war and international teamwork is what made that campaign compelling...not the results.

If 3 Riptides in a game with a 600 pt detachment + couple free stuff units is not a problem for you I'm not sure what the people are whining about in 1.85K and 2K pts games. Calling Riptides and an AV13 tank pretty easily killable is funny. Regarding the upgrades, Riptides don't need any. Nothing in the list needs any upgrades. As far as the Fireblade and Fire Warriors go, they won't even be on the table as they'll just hide in reserve.

I think you may have experienced EoT in a very different light. To me it seemed like a few random games and thousands of fake battle report submissions. I'm glad you enjoyed it.

If 3 Riptides in a game with a 600 pt detachment + couple free stuff units is not a problem for you I'm not sure what the people are whining about in 1.85K and 2K pts games.

Firstly, we don't even know the details of how the missions are going to be set up as. Secondly, you aren't getting 3 riptides in all your games. So I don't see what the butthurt is about.

Calling Riptides and an AV13 tank pretty easily killable is funny.

I said the tank was easily killable...not the riptides...and if you have problems killing an AV13 tank with only 3 HP...uh...I don't know what to say.

Regarding the upgrades, Riptides don't need any. Nothing in the list needs any upgrades.

Well without decent marker light support. This is just another shooty list that other armies can counter. Meh.

As far as the Fireblade and Fire Warriors go, they won't even be on the table as they'll just hide in reserve.

Yeah, and have a good chance arriving on turn 2 on a 3+. Or even better, how are we to know if you can even reserve units in these campaign missions. Once again, people are jumping to conclusions with no credible information.

I think you may have experienced EoT in a very different light. To me it seemed like a few random games and thousands of fake battle report submissions. I'm glad you enjoyed it.

Well I'm sorry that your community treated it as "random" games and you were somehow violated by the "fake" games and it ruined your life or something. Meanwhile, elsewhere, people enjoyed it for the better part of a summer, had fun with the interactivity of the website, had great games and didn't really give a gak about the results..and had a lot of good memories from that campaign.

This sounds neat. I wish there was a Gee-dubs near me so I could get up on this.

 Weltenwolf wrote:
Really? A global campaign named after a small german hellhole of a city? You gotta be kidding ...

I can remember going to the military base there several times when we lived in Germany. I want to say that was one of the better shopping bases for the US armed forces, but I could be mistaken.

I said the tank was easily killable...not the riptides...and if you have problems killing an AV13 tank with only 3 HP...uh...I don't know what to say.

Which AV13 tank has more than 3 hull points? How many other tanks with comparable firepower and utility at 115 points are AV13? It's an incredible vehicle for the price, and it plays a role in the list.

Post your take on all comers list that so easily defeats the Tau. I think your whole approach of playing down the multiple possible dominant army lists that one can make in 600 points is comical. There's no way to balance 600 point games with so open FOCs. If someone thought the 1.85K meta was in a bad shape, 600p takes it to a whole new level.

Well without decent marker light support. This is just another shooty list that other armies can counter. Meh.

What on earth are you talking about? These aren't battles between armies. These are 600 point skirmishes. Marker light support? Most armies will have about 4 units in total. Taking 'decent marker light support' is a good starting point for building a very bad Tau army in 600 points.

Or even better, how are we to know if you can even reserve units in these campaign missions. Once again, people are jumping to conclusions with no credible information.

Oh yeah I forgot. I shouldn't have assumed the campaign will be played under the rules of 40K. It could very well be a specialist game campaign with a whole new rule set.

Well I'm sorry that your community treated it as "random" games and you were somehow violated by the "fake" games and it ruined your life or something. Meanwhile, elsewhere, people enjoyed it for the better part of a summer, had fun with the interactivity of the website, had great games and didn't really give a gak about the results..and had a lot of good memories from that campaign.

Keep punching that strawman. I have a lot of good memories about playing 40K, considering I've played it for soon 20 years. None of it has anything to do with fake campaigns though.

On another note, like a few German posters pointed out, I can't believe the campaign is called Conquest of Kaiserslautern. It's simply too bush league to be real. Even for GW.

Tinfoil hat time.

Sounds like a great way to sell off your excess 40K starters in the summer. just before you drop the new 6.5 edition of 40K making the box rulebooks invalid so all the new recruits need to fork a big chunk of cash to use their newly acquired toys.

Removes tinfoil hat.

"This bickering is pointless. Now, Lord Vader will provide us with the location of the Rebel fortress by the time this station is operational. We will then crush the Rebellion with one swift stroke."


IT IS STILL IN BETA

I love how we all tear each other apart on Dakka. All these snide remarks and argumentative bs. THIS IS GOOD NEWS. GW is doing something for their community for what seems to be zero profit. WH40k is NOT a tournament style game. It is far too unbalanced and easily broken to be taken so seriously. Exactly how much fun you and your friends allow each other to have while playing with toys is entirely up to you. If you want to be a beardy dick and power game WAAC, then find someone else to play with. I prefer fluffy thematic battles full of narrative provided by the players....or in this case GAMES WORKSHOP.

I repeat, GW is actually doing something for little or no profit strictly for the enjoyment of their players. Sounds too miraculous to be true.

 Kanluwen wrote:
I think you need to genuinely read what the original post says.

You have a 600 point list to work from. 1 HQ, 1-2 Troop choices, 0-1 Elite, 0-1 Heavy Support, and 0-1 Fast Attack.

Cannot fit some cheap HQ, some cheap troop unit, and a wraithknight at 600 points ? Or 5-ish firewarriors, some cheap HQ, and a riptide ? Or, you know, two Grey Knight terminator squads as troop, one unit of paladins for Elite, and some cheap HQ ? Or tyranids with one unit of 10 gaunts, and everything else used to buy T6 monstrous creatures, as those are available in every slot except FA ?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Coteaz, 50 points of Henchmen, and a Shadowsword.

Thanks !

 BrotherGecko wrote:
I'm going to go out on a limb and say if your power listing at a fun new guy focused global campaign. You are probably a main contributor to some psychiatrist's children being put through an Ivy League school.

I am playing Sisters. I. Cannot. Powerlist !
I am just having fun at imagining broken combos I could not have any fun facing.

 EYEofTERROR wrote:
THIS IS GOOD NEWS.

Don't you mean GREAT news?

Brutal name.

I like it.

But will anything we do actually mean anything? From what I've heard, GW will usually look at the results of the campaign, laugh, and then make it out as a stalemate or the Imperium winning.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Brutal name.

I like it.

But will anything we do actually mean anything? From what I've heard, GW will usually look at the results of the campaign, laugh, and then make it out as a stalemate or the Imperium winning.

See, they could just make it a minor system with not huge impact on the story and then the results could be true without mattering!

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
It is perfectly possible to deal with AV14 in a 600 points game, I can do it with my only available troop choice which can brings two melta and a twin-linked multi-melta on the table for some 140 points.

But can you deal with it with redundancy (so they don't just kill your one melta unit immediately) and still be able to deal with a green tide list? This is the big problem with small point games that don't have severe restrictions on what units are legal, you can't cover every possible threat effectively with so few points available, so the game is decided by whether your opponent brought the thing you didn't have points to take a counter for. Either you have the right answer and you probably win, or you don't and you get massacred with little hope of fighting back.

xruslanx wrote:
Pergrine you have been told on several occasions that your WAAC, super-competative mindset in 40k is not usual. Most 40k players, especially those who play at Games Workshop stores, are casual and will be playing a fun game with whatever models they have painted that they think are cool, not spamming the most expensive, most powerful units around.

Oh, it's you again. Someone besides you would understand the obvious, that it only takes one player to ruin an event like this. And someone besides you would probably also understand that casual players can bring overpowered lists in small-point games even if they aren't deliberately trying to club baby seals. I know it's hard for the "casual at all costs" crowd to understand, but some people actually like those units. Someone who brings their shiny new LRBT (which they bought because it's a cool model) is going to massacre a starter set player who doesn't have any weapons capable of hurting AV 14, no matter how "casual" they are.

 Maniac_nmt wrote:

 Weltenwolf wrote:
Really? A global campaign named after a small german hellhole of a city? You gotta be kidding ...

I can remember going to the military base there several times when we lived in Germany. I want to say that was one of the better shopping bases for the US armed forces, but I could be mistaken.

I've been to K-Town on more than a few occasions, especially when my High School (Stuttgart) would play them in soccer and football. I think the main shopping experience back then would have been Robinson Barracks (Stuttgart) or Frankfurt and Rhein-Main bases; at least that's where it was at back in my day.

Interesting event nonetheless - would like to see them do more of this kind of stuff in the future.

 Peregrine wrote:
But can you deal with it with redundancy (so they don't just kill your one melta unit immediately)

Yes.

 Peregrine wrote:
and still be able to deal with a green tide list?

No, but I will have the same problem with high AV spam vs greentide at 1500 points too !
That's what skewed lists do.

 Peregrine wrote:

Oh, it's you again. Someone besides you would understand the obvious, that it only takes one player to ruin an event like this. And someone besides you would probably also understand that casual players can bring overpowered lists in small-point games even if they aren't deliberately trying to club baby seals. I know it's hard for the "casual at all costs" crowd to understand, but some people actually like those units. Someone who brings their shiny new LRBT (which they bought because it's a cool model) is going to massacre a starter set player who doesn't have any weapons capable of hurting AV 14, no matter how "casual" they are.

Well it's hardly "casual at all costs" since people will still be playing to win. But people have low-point battles all the time, frankly there's virtually no low-point armies that can't deal with AV 14 (certainly no Imperial army would struggle), and a helldrake is hardly going to ruin the game. Even if it gets lucky and comes in turn 2, assuming the enemy spreads out his troops he'll fry maybe 3 guys per turn, assuming he can get within range of someone every turn. That's 12 dead guys by turn 6, you better hope your enemy is space marines or you'll have basically been wasting your time.

You'd have to put in a fair bit of effort to "break" a game at this point level, any amount of wailing and flapping your arms around by you about how "broken" 40k is won't change that. Yes, you could bring tripple vendettas or dozens of riptides, but everyone there will know you're a dick and the organisers will probably politely ask you to change your list.

The sort of people this is aimed at - almost definitely kids who are new-ish to the hobby - play at GW all the time. I've been in a gw maybe half a dozen times over the past year, which certainly isn't a lot but I definitely can't remember seeing the kids playing battles crying and whinging about OP. They seemed to be having a good time actually.

xruslanx wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Oh, it's you again. Someone besides you would understand the obvious, that it only takes one player to ruin an event like this. And someone besides you would probably also understand that casual players can bring overpowered lists in small-point games even if they aren't deliberately trying to club baby seals. I know it's hard for the "casual at all costs" crowd to understand, but some people actually like those units. Someone who brings their shiny new LRBT (which they bought because it's a cool model) is going to massacre a starter set player who doesn't have any weapons capable of hurting AV 14, no matter how "casual" they are.

Well it's hardly "casual at all costs" since people will still be playing to win. But people have low-point battles all the time, frankly there's virtually no low-point armies that can't deal with AV 14 (certainly no Imperial army would struggle), and a helldrake is hardly going to ruin the game. Even if it gets lucky and comes in turn 2, assuming the enemy spreads out his troops he'll fry maybe 3 guys per turn, assuming he can get within range of someone every turn. That's 12 dead guys by turn 6, you better hope your enemy is space marines or you'll have basically been wasting your time.

AV14 would need a 4 to glance or 5+ to pen with a Lascannon, 5/6 with an autocannon or missile launcher, and is impervious to pretty much anything else a heavy weapons team/marine can use. Assuming 1 heavy weapon per squad and a 2 squad limit, and assuming you split your heavy weapons between firepower and rate of fire, you may only have 1 33% chance of glancing it per turn. Ok you can use things like meltas or powerfists, but they require you to get close without getting wiped out.

You'd have to put in a fair bit of effort to "break" a game at this point level, any amount of wailing and flapping your arms around by you about how "broken" 40k is won't change that. Yes, you could bring tripple vendettas or dozens of riptides, but everyone there will know you're a dick and the organisers will probably politely ask you to change your list.

All of the examples above show just how easy it is to break a 600pt game without any effort. I haven't tried to make up a 600pt list in a while, but I imagine one that stands a reasonable chance against any opponent will be difficult if you're not going for Marines with Terminators (for the PF and 2+/5++ save).

Herzlos wrote:

xruslanx wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

Oh, it's you again. Someone besides you would understand the obvious, that it only takes one player to ruin an event like this. And someone besides you would probably also understand that casual players can bring overpowered lists in small-point games even if they aren't deliberately trying to club baby seals. I know it's hard for the "casual at all costs" crowd to understand, but some people actually like those units. Someone who brings their shiny new LRBT (which they bought because it's a cool model) is going to massacre a starter set player who doesn't have any weapons capable of hurting AV 14, no matter how "casual" they are.

Well it's hardly "casual at all costs" since people will still be playing to win. But people have low-point battles all the time, frankly there's virtually no low-point armies that can't deal with AV 14 (certainly no Imperial army would struggle), and a helldrake is hardly going to ruin the game. Even if it gets lucky and comes in turn 2, assuming the enemy spreads out his troops he'll fry maybe 3 guys per turn, assuming he can get within range of someone every turn. That's 12 dead guys by turn 6, you better hope your enemy is space marines or you'll have basically been wasting your time.

AV14 would need a 4 to glance or 5+ to pen with a Lascannon, 5/6 with an autocannon or missile launcher, and is impervious to pretty much anything else a heavy weapons team/marine can use. Assuming 1 heavy weapon per squad and a 2 squad limit, and assuming you split your heavy weapons between firepower and rate of fire, you may only have 1 33% chance of glancing it per turn. Ok you can use things like meltas or powerfists, but they require you to get close without getting wiped out.

Autocannons are S7 unless you're Grey Knights.

I thought there were S8. In that case the only wargear guard/marine infantry can take that can hurt AV14 is: lascannon, missile launcher and melta. Most of which will leave you vulnerable if you're facing a green tide, for instance.

They misspelled Kranon's name with two n's instead of one.

I guess this takes place before the Dark Angels finally managed to kill him or something.

 filbert wrote:
I think someone at Nottingham HQ was watching the Bundesliga highlights on ITV4 and something has stuck subconsciously...

Damn you for beating me to that!

Herzlos wrote:
I thought there were S8. In that case the only wargear guard/marine infantry can take that can hurt AV14 is: lascannon, missile launcher and melta. Most of which will leave you vulnerable if you're facing a green tide, for instance.

A guard player should be rocking a fair few meltaguns even at 600 points, since lascannons only have a one in thirty six chance of popping av14. Assuming that a 600 point guard army wont bring melta guns makes as much sense as assuming they'll bring a penal legionaire horde.

*should* be, why? Will a new guard player know they need to spam melta in their lists?

I said, you need to get up close (under 12") for it to be particularly effective, so it might not actually help.

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
Tinfoil hat time.

Sounds like a great way to sell off your excess 40K starters in the summer. just before you drop the new 6.5 edition of 40K making the box rulebooks invalid so all the new recruits need to fork a big chunk of cash to use their newly acquired toys.

Removes tinfoil hat.

This guy... this guy talks sense

Herzlos wrote:
*should* be, why? Will a new guard player know they need to spam melta in their lists?

I said, you need to get up close (under 12") for it to be particularly effective, so it might not actually help.

You need to be under six inches to be effective with a melta gun really.

And yes, a newbie won't know how to counter av 14 very well. That's because they're new, being bad at something you're new at is not unique to 40k now is it?

 Bull0 wrote:

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
Tinfoil hat time.

Sounds like a great way to sell off your excess 40K starters in the summer. just before you drop the new 6.5 edition of 40K making the box rulebooks invalid so all the new recruits need to fork a big chunk of cash to use their newly acquired toys.

Removes tinfoil hat.

This guy... this guy talks sense

Verily. The idea is twisted in a beautiful way.

Herzlos wrote:
I thought there were S8. In that case the only wargear guard/marine infantry can take that can hurt AV14 is: lascannon, missile launcher and melta. Most of which will leave you vulnerable if you're facing a green tide, for instance.

Demolisher Cannons could work, though. S10 AP2 Ordnance Large Blast could do a number on AV14 and hordes alike, especially if people aren't spacing their models properly.

xruslanx wrote:

Herzlos wrote:
*should* be, why? Will a new guard player know they need to spam melta in their lists?

I said, you need to get up close (under 12") for it to be particularly effective, so it might not actually help.

You need to be under six inches to be effective with a melta gun really.

And yes, a newbie won't know how to counter av 14 very well. That's because they're new, being bad at something you're new at is not unique to 40k now is it?

Ok, you need to be within 6", so the chances of taking out an AV14 is pretty difficult.

And since this campaign is aimed at new players, surely in the interest of fairness you'd want to try and eliminate anything that gives them a frustrating exercise in futility?

Say little timmy buys a LR battle tank because it's cool, but none of his friends have anything that can counter it in a game, how long before they start getting bored?

So no upgrades would stop you increasing squad size too you know as extra guys are an upgrade.

Heldrake as standard comes with a hades autoannon not baleflamer too so only ever worry about one of these.

Sreamerstar costs way too much for 600 points.

I know I would welcome this even if it has a campaign supplement to it. Who knows there could be rules on the way for competitive gaming?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Herzlos wrote:
I thought there were S8. In that case the only wargear guard/marine infantry can take that can hurt AV14 is: lascannon, missile launcher and melta. Most of which will leave you vulnerable if you're facing a green tide, for instance.

Demolisher Cannons could work, though. S10 AP2 Ordnance Large Blast could do a number on AV14 and hordes alike, especially if people aren't spacing their models properly.

So would battle cannons, despite being S8 (though double AP roll?), but you're looking at committing almost 1/3rd of your points, and then you run the opposite position where the orc player will struggle to deal with you. Capping it at AV10/11 would be better, as then almost everything can glance it to death.

Herzlos wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Herzlos wrote:
I thought there were S8. In that case the only wargear guard/marine infantry can take that can hurt AV14 is: lascannon, missile launcher and melta. Most of which will leave you vulnerable if you're facing a green tide, for instance.

Demolisher Cannons could work, though. S10 AP2 Ordnance Large Blast could do a number on AV14 and hordes alike, especially if people aren't spacing their models properly.

So would battle cannons, despite being S8 (though double AP roll?), but you're looking at committing almost 1/3rd of your points, and then you run the opposite position where the orc player will struggle to deal with you. Capping it at AV10/11 would be better, as then almost everything can glance it to death.

How about capping it at something like AV12 so guard can still bring vehicles.

Chimera chassis are only AV11? or are they 12?

It'd probably be fairer to just say infantry only.

Herzlos wrote:

Say little timmy buys a LR battle tank because it's cool, but none of his friends have anything that can counter it in a game, how long before they start getting bored?

Then GW counts it as a win, say 4 kids have bought enough to start playing, Timmy has bought at least a Land Raider on top of that, and convinced he is a wargaming god due to roflstomping all his friends, has perhaps splurged an annual festivity's worth of presents too.

Small boys are grist to GW's mill, and they treat them like guardsmen in a siege, trying to think like a conventional business that wants to develop loyalty and a long term relationship just doesn't line up with the way they're operating right now.

Kaiserslautern VI? Must be in the same system with Wien IV, Langen III, and Bayern München FV.

It's not one of the Premiere Leagues of systems...

Which AV13 tank has more than 3 hull points? How many other tanks with comparable firepower and utility at 115 points are AV13? It's an incredible vehicle for the price, and it plays a role in the list.

Predators? Exorcists? I'm not disputing it's utility. I'm saying one tank is easy to silence. You seem to be missing that point. It's not like someone else couldn't figure out how to spend 600pts...and in said 600pts add some stuff to deal with one AV13 tank.

Post your take on all comers list that so easily defeats the Tau. I think your whole approach of playing down the multiple possible dominant army lists that one can make in 600 points is comical.

This is where your whole internet rage, etc. falls flat...you are assuming everyone and their mom is going to rush out and build 600pt Tau armies of doom. Meanwhile, the level headed sane people are looking at it as an opportunity to play some small games with strange FoC restictions...and THAT'S IT. Nobody is going to be running tournament lists...or treating this like a win, or die type thing...and if they are...they will be hard pressed to find opponents. Lastly, who said anything about "so easily defeating Tau"? All I said was taking out a single Skyray isn't a big deal. You are the one putting words in my mouth. As for 2 riptides? Who cares? You think Tau are the only army that can field stupid gak at 600pts? The bottom line is: This is something GW hasn't done for the community in a while, and while you want to go and throw a hate parade on gak you haven't even seen yet..all the while missing the big picture of: it's in BETA test stage...then waste your time somewhere else.

There's no way to balance 600 point games with so open FOCs. If someone thought the 1.85K meta was in a bad shape, 600p takes it to a whole new level.

This is the acceptance part you miss...there is no balance in this game at any points level. The sooner you understand that...the sooner you can relax and either A.) enjoy the damn game as is. Or B.) not play.

What on earth are you talking about? These aren't battles between armies. These are 600 point skirmishes.

Yes. Which means Riptides aren't nearly as scary since their main guns aren't suddenly bouncing your cover save...nor are they suddenly BS5+

Marker light support? Most armies will have about 4 units in total. Taking 'decent marker light support' is a good starting point for building a very bad Tau army in 600 points.

Marker light support is what really makes the Riptide a feared unit. Or a buff command joined to one. Either way a base level Riptide is more manageable than one that has marker light support. Most armies will have 4 units in total? Really? It's more like 5-6...possibly even more depending on how MSU you want your troops...or even what HQ you are selecting at 600pts.

Oh yeah I forgot. I shouldn't have assumed the campaign will be played under the rules of 40K. It could very well be a specialist game campaign with a whole new rule set.

Why does this seem like a foreign idea that certain mission special rules may be omitted. Hell, the damn FoC isn't a standard one. So if that's the case, how is not having certain mission rules not be used such a stretch? Like I said, you we know nothing of how the missions will be played or how it will be run...other than the modified FoC.

Keep punching that strawman. I have a lot of good memories about playing 40K, considering I've played it for soon 20 years. None of it has anything to do with fake campaigns though.

What strawman? LOL. You yourself have said the EoT was nothing but a bunch of random games and fake battle report submissions. I disagreed with that statement, but where's the straw man argument I presented? If you want to argue on the merits of playing time..like that somehow makes what you say more important (argument from authority fallacy anyone?) buddy I got you beat. I've been playing this game since it's creation...but who cares, right?

On another note, like a few German posters pointed out, I can't believe the campaign is called Conquest of Kaiserslautern. It's simply too bush league to be real. Even for GW.

Well unless you live, or lived in germany...not many people are aware that it's an actual place IN germany. That's like saying if they made a campaign called: Conquest of Waukesha...that the people of Waukesha, Wisconsin will suddenly be picketing outside of GW headquarters demanding a name change. Who cares what the name is(or will be). It's such a trivial thing to be pissed about..if anything consider it flattering that they've used a name from a very prominent EU country. Meh.

Herzlos wrote:
Chimera chassis are only AV11? or are they 12?

It'd probably be fairer to just say infantry only.

Maybe, but the DV starter set comes with a Helbrute. If this is meant to include everything in the starter set I don't think that they will cap armor.

DA can't use the limited edition chaplain -- why is that, exactly? -- so I guess there is something of a precedent.

DA can't use the limited edition chaplain -- why is that, exactly? -- so I guess there is something of a precedent.

Are Dark Angel Chaplains HQ choices? It's been a long time since I've looked through that codex. If it is, that is probably why as the DV boxed set already comes with 2 HQs. Dunno.

 d-usa wrote:
It's not one of the Premiere Leagues of systems...

More like district league, where the volunteer referee earns more than the players.

I guess the restriction on the Chaplain is to keep a rough balance in the DV kit itself. The Dark Angels already number more points than Chaos without the Chaplain and probably go far over 600 if he is included.

The weird restrictions on upgrades are very strange, but it doesnt have upgrade restrictions on the first 600 points as far as I can see. Which means my Heldrake alone can eat the people using the starter kits for breakfast, not a very good idea. Hopefully they will get a clear set of rules from the beta.

 CaptKaruthors wrote:

DA can't use the limited edition chaplain -- why is that, exactly? -- so I guess there is something of a precedent.

Are Dark Angel Chaplains HQ choices? It's been a long time since I've looked through that codex. If it is, that is probably why as the DV boxed set already comes with 2 HQs. Dunno.

Yes, they're HQs.

Herzlos wrote:

xruslanx wrote:

Herzlos wrote:
*should* be, why? Will a new guard player know they need to spam melta in their lists?

I said, you need to get up close (under 12") for it to be particularly effective, so it might not actually help.

You need to be under six inches to be effective with a melta gun really.

And yes, a newbie won't know how to counter av 14 very well. That's because they're new, being bad at something you're new at is not unique to 40k now is it?

Ok, you need to be within 6", so the chances of taking out an AV14 is pretty difficult.

And since this campaign is aimed at new players, surely in the interest of fairness you'd want to try and eliminate anything that gives them a frustrating exercise in futility?

Say little timmy buys a LR battle tank because it's cool, but none of his friends have anything that can counter it in a game, how long before they start getting bored?

Unless GW invented 600 point games with this campaign (which I'm pretty sure they didn't), this is an (non) issue that's been around forever. Unless the rules for this mini-comp thingymabob turn kids into the average dakka-ites, they aren't going to be trying to feth over the other competators - they'll be there to have fun. If they weren't, they probably wouldn't bother in the first place.

More importantly, a single Leman Russ will do bugger all. You can fit in *three* at 600 points, with enough left over for a CCS + veteran squad with meltaguns. I have played a fair bit of guard in my time and I can tell you that such a list would be craptacular. Anything with 2+ or any cover save whatsoever will ignore those russes and blow your vets off their objectives.

If it's so easy to "break" these 600 point games, feel free to come up with more examples. I have already explained why the Helldrake would not be breaking (unless your opponent is running an un-meched MEQ army that likes to stand around in clusters), and Leman Russes (as above). I wouldn't say that you *can't* break it, since I have no idea how a good chunk of some xeno armies work. I know that you can't get re-rollable 2++ from deamons because there aren't enough points, though I know that eldar/dark eldar do have access to such shinanigans. Can they do so at that point level?

 Therion wrote:
On another note, like a few German posters pointed out, I can't believe the campaign is called Conquest of Kaiserslautern. It's simply too bush league to be real. Even for GW.

Well, I remember a campaign from GW Germany where one of the hive worlds was called "Dortamunda". But they may change the name in Germany, like they did with Mordheim or Zahndrekh (the latter may be a case for the daemon Zahnarzt ).

xruslanx wrote:
Unless GW invented 600 point games with this campaign (which I'm pretty sure they didn't), this is an (non) issue that's been around forever.

Yes, and people who aren't GW have figured out how to make special low-point rules (combat patrol, for example) that fix the problem. There is no excuse for GW failing to do the same.

Unless the rules for this mini-comp thingymabob turn kids into the average dakka-ites, they aren't going to be trying to feth over the other competators - they'll be there to have fun. If they weren't, they probably wouldn't bother in the first place.

You clearly have no idea how WAAC players think. This kind of event is the perfect opportunity for them: lots of "casual" players/lists, and rules that limit what their opponents can do to stop them. And you're still ignoring the fact that people can play lists that are too powerful in a 600 point game because they're "fun" or "fluffy" or whatever.

More importantly, a single Leman Russ will do bugger all. You can fit in *three* at 600 points, with enough left over for a CCS + veteran squad with meltaguns. I have played a fair bit of guard in my time and I can tell you that such a list would be craptacular. Anything with 2+ or any cover save whatsoever will ignore those russes and blow your vets off their objectives.

And you clearly have no idea how IG works. First of all, you're not taking basic LRBTs since they suck. You're taking 1-2 of the good variants and 1-2 Vendettas with scoring units. I've played lists like that in low-point games because I love tanks and hate infantry, and my opponents struggled to do anything besides get tabled.

Also, yes, it has counters. But the whole point is it turns the game into a rock/paper/scissors match where the most important factor in your chances of winning is whether your opponent brought the list you couldn't afford to counter at 600 points.

If it's so easy to "break" these 600 point games, feel free to come up with more examples.

Those examples have already been provided. You just don't have any clue about how they work, or how badly the average "casual" player is going to get massacred against them. Not that this is really any surprise given your laughable ignorance about anything related to game design, and your bizarre belief that playing a non-GW game is like having sex with your dog.

I've played in all the 40k Summer campaigns: Armageddon, Medusa, and Black Crusades.

Every time it was horribly easy to skew the result entries, so I dearly dearly hope they fixed this. It's amazing how fast you stop caring about something when you know there's a large group of people cheating it.

xruslanx wrote:

Unless GW invented 600 point games with this campaign (which I'm pretty sure they didn't), this is an (non) issue that's been around forever. Unless the rules for this mini-comp thingymabob turn kids into the average dakka-ites, they aren't going to be trying to feth over the other competators - they'll be there to have fun. If they weren't, they probably wouldn't bother in the first place.

The game being horribly broken at 600 points is kind of the point of the discussion. You also seem to be of the belief that anyone bringing something overpowered is doing it to be WAAC and should be banned, that there's this gentlemans agreement not to bring anything good to a campaign. But you're glossing over the fact that 1. if you need the agreement between players, there's something wrong and it should be codified in the campaign rules and 2. That the players may not know that what they've got it overpowered; there are plenty of things a player could bring because they were convinced to buy it that'll result in an unbalance that means their opponent may as well not bother unpacking.

More importantly, a single Leman Russ will do bugger all. You can fit in *three* at 600 points, with enough left over for a CCS + veteran squad with meltaguns. I have played a fair bit of guard in my time and I can tell you that such a list would be craptacular. Anything with 2+ or any cover save whatsoever will ignore those russes and blow your vets off their objectives.

Against a tailored list, maybe, but against a group of new players based of the DV set? I don't know. If it can only be hurt by the missile launcher marine and the Deathwing terminators in the DA set, then it could cause a lot of problems. Battle cannon will do nasty things to almost everything (It's AP3 so no saves for the marines, and large blast ordinance, so does something on a 6 and may ignore cover? I'm not familiar with those rules) whilst needing flanked or assaulted to get damaged. That's assuming that they are playing the DA list. If they brought along guard without a tank, or orcs, they'd have an even worse time of it.

If it's so easy to "break" these 600 point games, feel free to come up with more examples. I have already explained why the Helldrake would not be breaking (unless your opponent is running an un-meched MEQ army that likes to stand around in clusters), and Leman Russes (as above). I wouldn't say that you *can't* break it, since I have no idea how a good chunk of some xeno armies work. I know that you can't get re-rollable 2++ from deamons because there aren't enough points, though I know that eldar/dark eldar do have access to such shinanigans. Can they do so at that point level?

This whole conversation is people pointing out obvious examples of allowed but broken lists and you claiming that they are easily countered if you happen to tailor a list to counter them. What's wrong with accepting that there may be breakable combinations without it being the players fault?

Considering that nobody should know what other players are bringing to the table nixes the "I'll just build X list to counter Y list".

Herzlos wrote:

xruslanx wrote:

Unless GW invented 600 point games with this campaign (which I'm pretty sure they didn't), this is an (non) issue that's been around forever. Unless the rules for this mini-comp thingymabob turn kids into the average dakka-ites, they aren't going to be trying to feth over the other competators - they'll be there to have fun. If they weren't, they probably wouldn't bother in the first place.

The game being horribly broken at 600 points is kind of the point of the discussion. You also seem to be of the belief that anyone bringing something overpowered is doing it to be WAAC and should be banned, that there's this gentlemans agreement not to bring anything good to a campaign. But you're glossing over the fact that 1. if you need the agreement between players, there's something wrong and it should be codified in the campaign rules and 2. That the players may not know that what they've got it overpowered; there are plenty of things a player could bring because they were convinced to buy it that'll result in an unbalance that means their opponent may as well not bother unpacking.

More importantly, a single Leman Russ will do bugger all. You can fit in *three* at 600 points, with enough left over for a CCS + veteran squad with meltaguns. I have played a fair bit of guard in my time and I can tell you that such a list would be craptacular. Anything with 2+ or any cover save whatsoever will ignore those russes and blow your vets off their objectives.

Against a tailored list, maybe, but against a group of new players based of the DV set? I don't know. If it can only be hurt by the missile launcher marine and the Deathwing terminators in the DA set, then it could cause a lot of problems. Battle cannon will do nasty things to almost everything (It's AP3 so no saves for the marines, and large blast ordinance, so does something on a 6 and may ignore cover? I'm not familiar with those rules) whilst needing flanked or assaulted to get damaged. That's assuming that they are playing the DA list. If they brought along guard without a tank, or orcs, they'd have an even worse time of it.

If it's so easy to "break" these 600 point games, feel free to come up with more examples. I have already explained why the Helldrake would not be breaking (unless your opponent is running an un-meched MEQ army that likes to stand around in clusters), and Leman Russes (as above). I wouldn't say that you *can't* break it, since I have no idea how a good chunk of some xeno armies work. I know that you can't get re-rollable 2++ from deamons because there aren't enough points, though I know that eldar/dark eldar do have access to such shinanigans. Can they do so at that point level?

This whole conversation is people pointing out obvious examples of allowed but broken lists and you claiming that they are easily countered if you happen to tailor a list to counter them. What's wrong with accepting that there may be breakable combinations without it being the players fault?

If you think that Leman Russes are op because they're ap3, I don't think you've played much with or against them. They will miss more often than they hit unless the opponent is clumped up, and cover saves abound. There is nothing whatsoever that is op about them, at any point level.

So once again, any more examples of "broken" combinations at this point level?

I never said they are OP. I said that they may break a 600pt starter game, because they may be very hard for a starter army to deal with, being AV 14 and AP3 Ordinance Large Blast with Lumbering Behemoth. They don't miss that badly that often due to the large blast part.

Any examples beyond those already mentioned? Not really, I'm not familiar with Xenos, but I'd imagine Centurions, flyers, any vehicle above AV11, Monsterous Creatures, 250pt+ characters (like Mephiston?, with 2+/3++ FNP and a psychic level of 3) will all prove difficult for a starter army to deal with. All can be countered by experienced players with tailored lists but 1. We're not talking about experienced players and 2. We're not talking about tailored lists.

Anyway, trying to drag it back onto topic. Properly organised low level beginner targetted escalation campaign - brilliant idea. As long as they do something to avoid the accidental imbalance at 600pts.

chris56ryan wrote:
So no upgrades would stop you increasing squad size too you know as extra guys are an upgrade.

Wouldn't be so sure on that particular one - there's precedent for adding additional models not being an 'upgrade' with Typhus and his plague zombies. I imagine there'll be more specifics on what counts as an upgrade if this makes it off the ground (or it'll vary per store).

So for previous GW campaigns could FLGS participate?

Dark Vengeance Campaign with small set of troops. and only DA VS Chaos goons? no IG joining DA to pacify Kaiserslautern nor Orks to do more dakka and git sum lootz?

When I played my space sharks I used to get Tyberos, 5 lightning claw termies, and a land raider redeemer for I think just under 600, but I could be wrong. And that's an hq and a troop if you take the raider as dedicated transport. Certainly not unbeatable, but it's a tough tank with a pretty good combat unit in it.

Saw a paper on this at my local store. I would like to join in...but not sure if i have the time. Looks fun.

Should the Campaign not be renamed to "Retreat from Kaiserslautern IV"?

 GuardRalph wrote:
Saw a paper on this at my local store. I would like to join in...but not sure if i have the time. Looks fun.

I was really about to unload a truckload of salt on this because of the name, but could not find a solid clue that the picture was photoshoped.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
Should the Campaign not be renamed to "Retreat from Kaiserslautern IV"?

OOOoooOOOH!!!
Exalt!

 Lone Cat wrote:
Dark Vengeance Campaign with small set of troops. and only DA VS Chaos goons? no IG joining DA to pacify Kaiserslautern nor Orks to do more dakka and git sum lootz?

Sounds like there's rules for other armies to participate; they've just suggested using the Dark Vengeance set to make things easier for beginners.

A shop who participate in the beta test has for some reasons put onlines the various scenarios that will be played during the campaign in PDf formats.

http://www.pandemonium-online.com/

Missions sizes varies from 1 Ten man Tac squad Vs 1 5 man raptors squad where the Raptors must take has objectives lost pages of the Grimoire of True Names, and once they receive thos they communicate them to a Sorceror and there will be additional random effects applied to Full 1500pts armies.

Most of the winning conditions and objectives are interesting gameplay wise i must say, specially like the mission where 5 DW termis are opposed to 4 x 5 CUltists, but for each cultists squad destroyed a new one enters play from reserves, ENDLESS stream of Cultists!

Oh dear. The Deatwing Knights squad name made me laugh. Squad Eberle.... Aside of all the german names for the Planet and the cities ok. But a squadname that sounds like the german cutesy version for Boar... squad Boarly. I wonder if GW will change some names for a german release.

It's interesting that Adeptus Sororitas need not apply (there are no sister equivalencies given by the rules).

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
A shop who participate in the beta test has for some reasons put onlines the various scenarios that will be played during the campaign in PDf formats.

http://www.pandemonium-online.com/

Missions sizes varies from 1 Ten man Tac squad Vs 1 5 man raptors squad where the Raptors must take has objectives lost pages of the Grimoire of True Names, and once they receive thos they communicate them to a Sorceror and there will be additional random effects applied to Full 1500pts armies.

Most of the winning conditions and objectives are interesting gameplay wise i must say, specially like the mission where 5 DW termis are opposed to 4 x 5 CUltists, but for each cultists squad destroyed a new one enters play from reserves, ENDLESS stream of Cultists!

Guys, what are IG shock troops...?

 Happygrunt wrote:


Guys, what are IG shock troops...?

Generic Cadians are techinically Cadian Shock Troops.
Presumably because they are constantly surprised by how their armor does nothing.

 plastictrees wrote:

 Happygrunt wrote:


Guys, what are IG shock troops...?

Generic Cadians are techinically Cadian Shock Troops.
Presumably because they are constantly surprised by how their armor does nothing.

Yah, but there is no such unit as "Imperial Guard Shock Troops". It uses Shock Troops as if it were a name for a unit, where no such unit exists.

Closest thing we have are veterans, but those are not necessarily cadians.

Maybe the next IG book will be Codex: Cadia

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
A shop who participate in the beta test has for some reasons put onlines the various scenarios that will be played during the campaign in PDf formats.

http://www.pandemonium-online.com/

Missions sizes varies from 1 Ten man Tac squad Vs 1 5 man raptors squad where the Raptors must take has objectives lost pages of the Grimoire of True Names, and once they receive thos they communicate them to a Sorceror and there will be additional random effects applied to Full 1500pts armies.

Most of the winning conditions and objectives are interesting gameplay wise i must say, specially like the mission where 5 DW termis are opposed to 4 x 5 CUltists, but for each cultists squad destroyed a new one enters play from reserves, ENDLESS stream of Cultists!

Wow, neat. Thanks!

Heh, I find it cute how at first, only the Emperor shows blessing to those dedicated that paint and build their armies fully, but then in the latter PDFs it's like someone remembered that the chaos gods exist too and adds the Ruinous Powers to that paragraph as also giving their blessing.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
It's interesting that Adeptus Sororitas need not apply (there are no sister equivalencies given by the rules).

Yeah. But then again, only one side has equivalent forces listed in each scenario, and those looks more like very generic guidelines than rules.
And since it is designed so that each players plays each side, you do not want it to be imbalanced, else it will be automatic draw !

TiamatRoar wrote:
Heh, I find it cute how at first, only the Emperor shows blessing to those dedicated that paint and build their armies fully

Don't forget the buying your army requirement. After all, it's the most important part of the hobby.

Full PDF document for the campaign!

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/k72emcs91ir6nhn/tC8VLBwe_g/Conquest%20of%20Kaiserslautern%20VI.pdf

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Full PDF document for the campaign!

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/k72emcs91ir6nhn/tC8VLBwe_g/Conquest%20of%20Kaiserslautern%20VI.pdf

This activity is designed to increase the sales of the following products:...

Yah, no, feth that noise.

Bit confused with Mission 8 and it's alternative suggestions to the Deathwing squad... a squad of Termagants or a squad of Shock Troops with Carapace for Guard?

Given that they equip the Shock Troops with carapace makes me wonder if they are referring to Vets or Storm Troopers instead?

Interesting that there are no equivalencies to the Land Speeder Vengeance or Daemon Prince for the last battle too.

 Happygrunt wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Full PDF document for the campaign!

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/k72emcs91ir6nhn/tC8VLBwe_g/Conquest%20of%20Kaiserslautern%20VI.pdf

This activity is designed to increase the sales of the following products:...

Yah, no, feth that noise.

Anything a store does is a "sales enhancing activity" when it comes down to it. Is that really such a problem or do you only play at home?

They did the same back then with Battle for Macragge, releasing scenario missions with suggestions on what to buy next to help escalate the fighting.

I just glanced at the missions, but they are very poor.

How is a squad of 5 dudes, even Terminators, supposed to survive 10 turns? You just need to roll 5 x 1. Seen it happen a lot of times.

Not to mention the fact that you only get the reroll if you BOUGHT, PAINTED and BASED the army specifically DURING the event.

Also, how are Kabalite Warriors a substitute for Chaos Raptors? That one made me laugh. It's like the person designing this never heard of the race. Sorry, that get's even better, Kabalite Warriors are a suggested substitute for TERMINATORS in mission 8a.

 endtransmission wrote:
Bit confused with Mission 8 and it's alternative suggestions to the Deathwing squad... a squad of Termagants or a squad of Shock Troops with Carapace for Guard?

Given that they equip the Shock Troops with carapace makes me wonder if they are referring to Vets or Storm Troopers instead?

Interesting that there are no equivalencies to the Land Speeder Vengeance or Daemon Prince for the last battle too.

 Alkasyn wrote:
Also, how are Kabalite Warriors a substitute for Chaos Raptors? That one made me laugh. It's like the person designing this never heard of the race. Sorry, that get's even better, Kabalite Warriors are a suggested substitute for TERMINATORS in mission 8a.

Those are suggestions. Just ignore them and, you know, talk about it with the staff at your store and/or your opponent. Maybe use Grotesques instead. Those looks like a good tough unit that could replace terminators. And do not forget you will get to swap sides with your adversary afterward, so tweak the forces to get a balanced game rather than looking at point values.

 Alkasyn wrote:
How is a squad of 5 dudes, even Terminators, supposed to survive 10 turns? You just need to roll 5 x 1. Seen it happen a lot of times.

You just need to survive 5 turns to win. 10 is for “Gold Victory”, of course it's going to be very difficult/improbable.

 endtransmission wrote:
Given that they equip the Shock Troops with carapace makes me wonder if they are referring to Vets or Storm Troopers instead?

Nah, "shock troops" is the name on the box, so all they care about is that you buy a box of shock troops. What rules you use when you put them on the table is just an irrelevant detail that GW doesn't care about.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 endtransmission wrote:
Bit confused with Mission 8 and it's alternative suggestions to the Deathwing squad... a squad of Termagants or a squad of Shock Troops with Carapace for Guard?

Given that they equip the Shock Troops with carapace makes me wonder if they are referring to Vets or Storm Troopers instead?

Interesting that there are no equivalencies to the Land Speeder Vengeance or Daemon Prince for the last battle too.

 Alkasyn wrote:
Also, how are Kabalite Warriors a substitute for Chaos Raptors? That one made me laugh. It's like the person designing this never heard of the race. Sorry, that get's even better, Kabalite Warriors are a suggested substitute for TERMINATORS in mission 8a.

Those are suggestions. Just ignore them and, you know, talk about it with the staff at your store and/or your opponent. Maybe use Grotesques instead. Those looks like a good tough unit that could replace terminators. And do not forget you will get to swap sides with your adversary afterward, so tweak the forces to get a balanced game rather than looking at point values.

 Alkasyn wrote:
How is a squad of 5 dudes, even Terminators, supposed to survive 10 turns? You just need to roll 5 x 1. Seen it happen a lot of times.

You just need to survive 5 turns to win. 10 is for “Gold Victory”, of course it's going to be very difficult/improbable.

Why does the company bother with pointless suggestions, then?

Also, even 5 turns will be very hard for the terminators, seeing as there's 4x 5 Cultists shooting at them ?

So it's only DV stuff? In that case my store probably won't run it. They got some new blood in when they started carrying 40k earlier this year and by now all the noobs are fairly good regulars.

EDIT: it seems like a wasted opportunity limiting it only to DV stuff. They could've done another Armageddon or big campaign to rope a bunch of people in if they let all armies play (albeit in small forces)

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
So it's only DV stuff?

Nah. It's obviously geared towards DV, but in the recap sheet it mentions that you can use "an equivalent force from another army".

 d-usa wrote:

 Happygrunt wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Full PDF document for the campaign!

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/k72emcs91ir6nhn/tC8VLBwe_g/Conquest%20of%20Kaiserslautern%20VI.pdf

This activity is designed to increase the sales of the following products:...

Yah, no, feth that noise.

Anything a store does is a "sales enhancing activity" when it comes down to it. Is that really such a problem or do you only play at home?

Yeah exactly. I don't see it as a negative or unreasonable unless they're making you buy clippers to participate.

 Alkasyn wrote:
I just glanced at the missions, but they are very poor.

How is a squad of 5 dudes, even Terminators, supposed to survive 10 turns? You just need to roll 5 x 1. Seen it happen a lot of times.

Not to mention the fact that you only get the reroll if you BOUGHT, PAINTED and BASED the army specifically DURING the event.

Also, how are Kabalite Warriors a substitute for Chaos Raptors? That one made me laugh. It's like the person designing this never heard of the race. Sorry, that get's even better, Kabalite Warriors are a suggested substitute for TERMINATORS in mission 8a.

Let alone a 10-man section of Scions

too bad no recent news about this coming out as yet mew! Two days ago i've asked a guy in an FLGS (particularly Battlefield Bangkok) about kaiserslautern 4 campaign and he 'knows nothing about it' (partially because he's Fantasy fans but he's a good painter meow~). he too! asked me to find a proof whether did this campaign is played in global scale and do the same thing as the '13th Black Crusade' and inform him about that. Googling on this reveals no news so far MEW!!!

A 4 month necro to say "nothing new here guys"?

I have never heard of this campaign.

I would be very pleased but also very surprised if GW were doing another worldwide campaign.

If there is no substantive news about this campaign in the next couple of weeks, I think the thread will have to be locked.

I fear that GW might not release this global campaign this year (or may have cancelled it altogether) mew!

GW is working TOO MUCH on Knights project shortly after IG has been rebranded into Astra Militarium. Managers might run short on cashs or possibly reworking on it so to accommodates larger games (where Knights fight meow~)

This is cool. I hope a store near me does it.

 d-usa wrote:

 Happygrunt wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Full PDF document for the campaign!

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/k72emcs91ir6nhn/tC8VLBwe_g/Conquest%20of%20Kaiserslautern%20VI.pdf

This activity is designed to increase the sales of the following products:...

Yah, no, feth that noise.

Anything a store does is a "sales enhancing activity" when it comes down to it. Is that really such a problem or do you only play at home?

I think the concern is the focus of it rather than what it is. Obviously an in-store event is intended to boost sales, that goes without saying. So explicitly saying "this activity is designed to increase sales" is crass, redundant, and implies that they've done it with the only goal being sales, rather than making a good campaign that has a side effect of generating sales.