Go to ground IIRC improves your cover save by 1, and ruins give a 4+. Normally, this would be a 3+ unless you have stealth or a similar rule that further improves your cover save.
The area terrain will depend on what you have defined with your opponent, whether it is a 'hard' 4+ or a 5+ if the model isn't obscured by actual ruin parts.
Aegis Defence lines specifically improve cover by 2 when you go to ground in them, which may be the cause of confusion.
Daba wrote: Go to ground IIRC improves your cover save by 1, and ruins give a 4+. Normally, this would be a 3+ unless you have stealth or a similar rule that further improves your cover save.
The area terrain will depend on what you have defined with your opponent, whether it is a 'hard' 4+ or a 5+ if the model isn't obscured by actual ruin parts.
Aegis Defence lines specifically improve cover by 2 when you go to ground in them, which may be the cause of confusion.
Area terrain also adds +2 to you cover save when you go to ground in it.
To clarify I am assuming the area terrain gives the standard 5+c and the ruin 4+c. As stated by Unit1126PLL cover saves are improved by 2 when going to ground in area terrain. Hence the disagreement.
I'd recommend reading the rules for cover saves and going to ground in area terrain as well as cover in ruins with bases immediately before replying, as they are both slight exceptions to the standard cover rules and interact in this (fairly common) case.
You get a 2+ cover save going by the rules, as you have no permission to ignore the +2 to your cover save rule from area terrain. They possibly did not consider this, however, and as it seems waaay too easy to get such a save our group houseruled it away.
nosferatu1001 wrote: You get a 2+ cover save going by the rules, as you have no permission to ignore the +2 to your cover save rule from area terrain. They possibly did not consider this, however, and as it seems waaay too easy to get such a save our group houseruled it away.
HIWPI We did the opposite for the following reason. Bikes and Cavalry cant climb to the upper levels of a ruin. Gaining a 2+ cover save while going to ground on the base of a ruin and being obscured by said ruin gives people a reason to think about putting their heavy weapon squads or similar on the ground level instead of the upper levels. Its not a no brainer choice this way since you get better cover but limit your view and you have to worry about cavalry and bikes when benefitting from it.
@OP In the end discuss this with your opponent before game and dont insist it should be played the way that favors you. This way you should find a reasonable solution that both are happy with.
@Mywik: I agree asking opponent/TO is the way to go, that's why I suggested doing so in the OP. This thread is just to see how people here read the rules and take a temperature. I don't really mind, different armies I play benefit differently from interpretations.
@OP The rules as written allow you to apply the bonus to going to ground in area terrain regardless of whether or not you are using the cover save you receive from said area terrain. TOs are free to make their own houserules and you have to abide by them in tournies, but in the actual rules the cover save and GtG bonus are separate rules. Many people deliberately misread this rule, though.
nosferatu1001 wrote: You get a 2+ cover save going by the rules, as you have no permission to ignore the +2 to your cover save rule from area terrain. They possibly did not consider this, however, and as it seems waaay too easy to get such a save our group houseruled it away.
Going to ground in area terrain while obscured by a ruin is easy? What about going to ground behind an Aegis Defence Line? or simply being behind an Aegis Defence Line with Shrouded?
The model has 2 separate cover saves, a 5+ from area and 4+ from Ruins.
When you GTG, the Area Terrain is improved by 2 and the Ruin Save is improved by 1, both becoming 3+ saves. Cover saves don't overwrite each other, they both exist and you take the best.
Interesting that a couple of the more experienced YMDC posters have not agreed with it being 3+. Why would it be 2+? As far as I am concerned, the best you can get barring stealth etc is 3+
ColdSadHungry wrote: Interesting that a couple of the more experienced YMDC posters have not agreed with it being 3+. Why would it be 2+? As far as I am concerned, the best you can get barring stealth etc is 3+
brb p91 wrote:Models that Go to Ground in area terrain receive +2 to their cover save, rather than +1.
I have a 4+ and 5+ cover save available. Instead of getting +1, I get +2 to my cover save.
I always take the best available save. 4+ modified by 2 is 2+.
ColdSadHungry wrote: Interesting that a couple of the more experienced YMDC posters have not agreed with it being 3+. Why would it be 2+? As far as I am concerned, the best you can get barring stealth etc is 3+
brb p91 wrote:Models that Go to Ground in area terrain receive +2 to their cover save, rather than +1.
I have a 4+ and 5+ cover save available. Instead of getting +1, I get +2 to my cover save.
I always take the best available save. 4+ modified by 2 is 2+.
And the alternate way to read that is that as it says "save" (singular), it only applies to the save mentioned in the rule. It would not apply to all cover saves that the model has. So, have to talk to the TO.
ColdSadHungry wrote: Interesting that a couple of the more experienced YMDC posters have not agreed with it being 3+. Why would it be 2+? As far as I am concerned, the best you can get barring stealth etc is 3+
brb p91 wrote:Models that Go to Ground in area terrain receive +2 to their cover save, rather than +1.
I have a 4+ and 5+ cover save available. Instead of getting +1, I get +2 to my cover save.
I always take the best available save. 4+ modified by 2 is 2+.
You do not have a choice in which cover to use; you either have a ruin save because you are 25% covered, or an area save because you are standing in area terrain. Depending on what save is going to be used determines the modifier. If I am going to be able to use the ruins for cover my GTG will grant a +1; if I am only going to benefit from area terrain, I get a +2 for GTG. Either way you get a 3+ cover save. The only way to get a 2+ cover save is GTG behind an aegis.
Either it applies to one cover save, which could be any save, in which case I choose the ruins cover save. Or, more likely, it is simply a modification to going to ground and applies to all cover saves.
Either way, there is no restriction on applying the bonus only to your area terrain cover save.
POKEYtheBIG wrote: You do not have a choice in which cover to use; you either have a ruin save because you are 25% covered, or an area save because you are standing in area terrain. Depending on what save is going to be used determines the modifier. If I am going to be able to use the ruins for cover my GTG will grant a +1; if I am only going to benefit from area terrain, I get a +2 for GTG. Either way you get a 3+ cover save. The only way to get a 2+ cover save is GTG behind an aegis.
You would be correct if the rule stated something like "Models that Go to Ground in area terrain receive +2 to their cover save granted by that piece of area terrain, rather than +1." or "Models that Go to Ground in area terrain receive +2 to their cover save, rather than +1, while using the cover save granted by that piece of area terrain." Or if there was a rule somewhere else in the book that states a model is only affected by one type of terrain at a time (if there is, please tell me, I'd love to be able to assault through both open ground and terrain and strike at initiative. As far as I'm aware neither is the case, thus your argument is based on a false premise leading me to disregard the conclusion you have reached as incorrect.
PrinceRaven wrote: Either it applies to one cover save, which could be any save, in which case I choose the ruins cover save. Or, more likely, it is simply a modification to going to ground and applies to all cover saves.
Either way, there is no restriction on applying the bonus only to your area terrain cover save.
POKEYtheBIG wrote: You do not have a choice in which cover to use; you either have a ruin save because you are 25% covered, or an area save because you are standing in area terrain. Depending on what save is going to be used determines the modifier. If I am going to be able to use the ruins for cover my GTG will grant a +1; if I am only going to benefit from area terrain, I get a +2 for GTG. Either way you get a 3+ cover save. The only way to get a 2+ cover save is GTG behind an aegis.
You would be correct if the rule stated something like "Models that Go to Ground in area terrain receive +2 to their cover save granted by that piece of area terrain, rather than +1." or "Models that Go to Ground in area terrain receive +2 to their cover save, rather than +1, while using the cover save granted by that piece of area terrain." Or if there was a rule somewhere else in the book that states a model is only affected by one type of terrain at a time (if there is, please tell me, I'd love to be able to assault through both open ground and terrain and strike at initiative. As far as I'm aware neither is the case, thus your argument is based on a false premise leading me to disregard the conclusion you have reached as incorrect.
rigeld2 wrote: And since it modifies the Go to Ground modifier, that rule is important to reference:
Models in a unit that has gone to ground immediately
receive +1 to their cover saving throws.
Not singular.
Its also not singular because its tied to the word "models" grammatically. Who receives +1 to their cover saving throws? The models. That doesn't actually help in your argument because the use of a plural prevents you from determining if they are taking about whether each model has multiple cover saves or all models in the unit have the same saving throw. The rule would work in the exact same manner if worded "Any model in a unit that has gone to ground immediately receives +1 to its cover saving throw."
That said, I think rigeld is still in the right here. The rule is very simple: "Models that Go to Ground in area terrain receive +2 to their cover save, rather than +1." The bonus is not linked specifically by RAW to the 5+ save from the area terrain. I see no problem with stacking it with the 4+ from a ruined wall if you are both behind the wall and in area terrain.
It's another issue of Games Workshop not defining their terms. Their writing style isn't very conducive towards a war gaming rule set especially their sort of rule set which has a crap ton of differing instances of the same rule. What the rule says is a you are adding a 2+ to your cover save. It doesn't say "You add 2+ to your area terrain cover save" just "your cover save".
Since 40k uses true of line of sight you will receive whatever save is intervening between your model and the firer. Note that this is your "cover save". Now, your model is also in area terrain so it receives benefits from that as well. Since both are your "cover save" at the same time you would always apply the 2+ benefit to either. Since you always take the best save you will take 4+ ruins but, again, this is still your "cover save". Nowhere in the rulebook, afaik, says that by taking one cover save over the other you ignore all effects from the terrain that gave you the lesser save. This would mean that, yes, you do get a 2+ cover save from going to ground in area terrain behind a wall.
Now, HIWPI? Use the "plain English" interpretation and say that you get a 3+ cover save. Less arguments about a stupid and broken ruleset.
That isn't what is being proposed. Kirby just breaks it down and diagrams it for ease of understanding.
And he is doing it wrong, it happens.
@TheCustomLime
I agree with you about less arguments, so we just went the other way and called it a 2+ in my group . I also agree that this could have been written as you suggested and make our gaming much easier or a simple faq would suffice, but they haven't been releasing faq since september now :( .
PrinceRaven wrote: Either it applies to one cover save, which could be any save, in which case I choose the ruins cover save. Or, more likely, it is simply a modification to going to ground and applies to all cover saves.
Either way, there is no restriction on applying the bonus only to your area terrain cover save.
POKEYtheBIG wrote: You do not have a choice in which cover to use; you either have a ruin save because you are 25% covered, or an area save because you are standing in area terrain. Depending on what save is going to be used determines the modifier. If I am going to be able to use the ruins for cover my GTG will grant a +1; if I am only going to benefit from area terrain, I get a +2 for GTG. Either way you get a 3+ cover save. The only way to get a 2+ cover save is GTG behind an aegis.
You would be correct if the rule stated something like "Models that Go to Ground in area terrain receive +2 to their cover save granted by that piece of area terrain, rather than +1." or "Models that Go to Ground in area terrain receive +2 to their cover save, rather than +1, while using the cover save granted by that piece of area terrain." Or if there was a rule somewhere else in the book that states a model is only affected by one type of terrain at a time (if there is, please tell me, I'd love to be able to assault through both open ground and terrain and strike at initiative. As far as I'm aware neither is the case, thus your argument is based on a false premise leading me to disregard the conclusion you have reached as incorrect.
So he makes the same mistake you did of assuming you can and have to choose which terrain rules affect your models, how is this supposed to convince me?
PrinceRaven wrote: Either it applies to one cover save, which could be any save, in which case I choose the ruins cover save. Or, more likely, it is simply a modification to going to ground and applies to all cover saves.
Either way, there is no restriction on applying the bonus only to your area terrain cover save.
POKEYtheBIG wrote: You do not have a choice in which cover to use; you either have a ruin save because you are 25% covered, or an area save because you are standing in area terrain. Depending on what save is going to be used determines the modifier. If I am going to be able to use the ruins for cover my GTG will grant a +1; if I am only going to benefit from area terrain, I get a +2 for GTG. Either way you get a 3+ cover save. The only way to get a 2+ cover save is GTG behind an aegis.
You would be correct if the rule stated something like "Models that Go to Ground in area terrain receive +2 to their cover save granted by that piece of area terrain, rather than +1." or "Models that Go to Ground in area terrain receive +2 to their cover save, rather than +1, while using the cover save granted by that piece of area terrain." Or if there was a rule somewhere else in the book that states a model is only affected by one type of terrain at a time (if there is, please tell me, I'd love to be able to assault through both open ground and terrain and strike at initiative. As far as I'm aware neither is the case, thus your argument is based on a false premise leading me to disregard the conclusion you have reached as incorrect.
So he makes the same mistake you did of assuming you can and have to choose which terrain rules affect your models, how is this supposed to convince me?
As opposed to the mistake you're making assuming you get benefits from a cover save you are not taking, bending rules to your benefit to make up for subpar play on the table.
He's not getting benefits from a cover save he isn't taking. At all.
And don't worry - it's cool to assume someone is a poor player because they're discussing rules. Totally a valid method of debate. (I know it's hard to get it from text, but that's sarcasm.)
rigeld2 wrote: He's not getting benefits from a cover save he isn't taking. At all.
And don't worry - it's cool to assume someone is a poor player because they're discussing rules. Totally a valid method of debate. (I know it's hard to get it from text, but that's sarcasm.)
If you're having to bend rules for pseudo-strategic advantages, then yes I begin to assume your ability lies in finding ways to break lists, or searching the internet for one, and rules lawyering rather than playing well. And it's not a method of debate, it was a statement. If you're taking a 2+ from GTG on a ruins save then you are using the area terrain, not the ruins save. You knew what I meant and are choosing to play at ignorance.
rigeld2 wrote: He's not getting benefits from a cover save he isn't taking. At all.
And don't worry - it's cool to assume someone is a poor player because they're discussing rules. Totally a valid method of debate. (I know it's hard to get it from text, but that's sarcasm.)
If you're having to bend rules for pseudo-strategic advantages, then yes I begin to assume your ability lies in finding ways to break lists, or searching the internet for one, and rules lawyering rather than playing well.
It can't be because this forum is for discussing rules. Never. The fact that you have to resort to ad hominems shows you have no rules basis for your argument.
And it's not a method of debate, it was a statement. If you're taking a 2+ from GTG on a ruins save then you are using the area terrain, not the ruins save. You knew what I meant and are choosing to play at ignorance.
Except there isn't a single rule tying the 2+ GTG to the area terrain save - only your assumption. You've insulted someone because they disagree with your interpretation in an attempt to prove your point. That's not very polite.
Except there isn't a single rule tying the 2+ GTG to the area terrain save - only your assumption. You've insulted someone because they disagree with your interpretation in an attempt to prove your point. That's not very polite.
And it is your assumption that it apples to saves other than area terrain. Don't act offended when others get it how they give. The wording on p.91 has to be made much more specific before either of us can claim RAW as there is room for interpretation. So until then it is a matter of RAI in which I have presented plenty to support myself while others have just repeated themselves that there is nothing saying the +2 is restricted, same as if I just repeatedly stated there is nothing explicitly saying it applies to saves other than area terrain.
Except there isn't a single rule tying the 2+ GTG to the area terrain save - only your assumption. You've insulted someone because they disagree with your interpretation in an attempt to prove your point. That's not very polite.
And it is your assumption that it apples to saves other than area terrain. Don't act offended when others get it how they give. The wording on p.91 has to be made much more specific before either of us can claim RAW as there is room for interpretation. So until then it is a matter of RAI in which I have presented plenty to support myself while others have just repeated themselves that there is nothing saying the +2 is restricted, same as if I just repeatedly stated there is nothing explicitly saying it applies to saves other than area terrain.
Get it how they give?
Where did he insult you, pray tell?
Except there isn't a single rule tying the 2+ GTG to the area terrain save - only your assumption. You've insulted someone because they disagree with your interpretation in an attempt to prove your point. That's not very polite.
And it is your assumption that it apples to saves other than area terrain. Don't act offended when others get it how they give. The wording on p.91 has to be made much more specific before either of us can claim RAW as there is room for interpretation. So until then it is a matter of RAI in which I have presented plenty to support myself while others have just repeated themselves that there is nothing saying the +2 is restricted, same as if I just repeatedly stated there is nothing explicitly saying it applies to saves other than area terrain.
"plenty" would not be the word i would use for the support you have on RAI .
People are discussing this rule because there is a place to discuss, you can't just state you have upper hand because you have the upper hand.
While we're on the topic of houserules for balance, let's stop people from buying Aegis Defence Lines, because 2+ cover saves when going to ground are clearly considered OP judging by Eihnlazer's statement.
PrinceRaven wrote: So he makes the same mistake you did of assuming you can and have to choose which terrain rules affect your models, how is this supposed to convince me?
As opposed to the mistake you're making assuming you get benefits from a cover save you are not taking, bending rules to your benefit to make up for subpar play on the table.
And now you are making the mistake of thinking that the GtG bonus is part of the cover save from area terrain, when it is an entirely separate rule.
this is a quote from another post on the same subject but spells it out very clear. I am paraphrasing it here.
"You are allowed to take the best save available. Note, the best save, not the best base and then modify it. IMO you take each save and work out its' final value.
Ruins 4+ if you GTG behind ruins +1 for a final total of 3+
Area terrain 5+ if you GTG +2 for a total of 3+
osirisx69 wrote: this is a quote from another post on the same subject but spells it out very clear. I am paraphrasing it here.
"You are allowed to take the best save available. Note, the best save, not the best base and then modify it. IMO you take each save and work out its' final value.
Ruins 4+ if you GTG behind ruins +1 for a final total of 3+
Area terrain 5+ if you GTG +2 for a total of 3+
So the final result is 3+
Cheers
Andrew"
I love how people come in here and blatantly misrepresent the rules and then claim it's absolutely the only way it can possibly work.
In other words, "Cool story bro."
osirisx69 wrote: this is a quote from another post on the same subject but spells it out very clear. I am paraphrasing it here.
"You are allowed to take the best save available. Note, the best save, not the best base and then modify it. IMO you take each save and work out its' final value.
Ruins 4+ if you GTG behind ruins +1 for a final total of 3+
Area terrain 5+ if you GTG +2 for a total of 3+
So the final result is 3+
Cheers
Andrew"
I love how people come in here and blatantly misrepresent the rules and then claim it's absolutely the only way it can possibly work.
In other words, "Cool story bro."
I love how people come on here and blatantly break the rules by posting opinions about "other" posters, also how they don't add to the discussion with there passive aggress remarks. Like a back handed attack on other poster. Of course he is protected because he didn't name any names but he sure got his dig in didn't he!
As for my post it was a just a quote that matched perfectly to what people are saying is how the rules are run in most games
Once again, taking a ruins cover save doesn't mean that you have ceased to be going to ground in area terrain. Rigeld is right in calling this a blatant misrepresentation of the rules.
PrinceRaven wrote: Once again, taking a ruins cover save doesn't mean that you have ceased to be going to ground in area terrain. Rigeld is right in calling this a blatant misrepresentation of the rules.
Are you in ruins------> circle yes or no
Are you in area terrain-----> circle yes or no.
The ruins are ruins and the area terrain is area terrain. They are not the same. So the flow chart would look like this.
If you answered yes to ruins and gtg then you are +3 save.
If you answered no to ruins and you gtg then it is 6+ save.
If you answered yes to area terrain and gtg then its a 3+ save.
If you answered no to area terrain its a 6+ save.
PrinceRaven wrote: Once again, taking a ruins cover save doesn't mean that you have ceased to be going to ground in area terrain. Rigeld is right in calling this a blatant misrepresentation of the rules.
Nothing states that you ignore the fact that you are going to ground behind a ruin either which only grants a +1. Nothing in the BRB says that one rule supersedes the other. You make the choice on which you use but it comes out to 3+
PrinceRaven wrote: Once again, taking a ruins cover save doesn't mean that you have ceased to be going to ground in area terrain. Rigeld is right in calling this a blatant misrepresentation of the rules.
Nothing states that you ignore the fact that you are going to ground behind a ruin either which only grants a +1. Nothing in the BRB says that one rule supersedes the other. You make the choice on which you use but it comes out to 3+
This is the correct wording.
PrinceRaven just because Regron likes to say people are misrepresenting the rules doesn't mean he is right.
There is NO wording in the rule book that states you an area terrain is a 3+ save.
I think the disagreement here comes from whether go to ground granting an improvement to your cover save is a property of the cover or a general property.
osirisx69 wrote: I love how people come on here and blatantly break the rules by posting opinions about "other" posters, also how they don't add to the discussion with there passive aggress remarks. Like a back handed attack on other poster. Of course he is protected because he didn't name any names but he sure got his dig in didn't he!
Fine. I'll be more clear.
Your post quoted someone who blatantly misstated what the rules say.
As for my post it was a just a quote that matched perfectly to what people are saying is how the rules are run in most games
Which has nothing to do with what's actually written.
So coming in and saying that it, and I'll quote, "spells it out very clear" is factually incorrect. It doesn't clear anything up it just restates the same thing that's been said over and over in the thread.
So you added nothing and did so in a pompous "I'm right no matter what." way.
PrinceRaven wrote: Once again, taking a ruins cover save doesn't mean that you have ceased to be going to ground in area terrain. Rigeld is right in calling this a blatant misrepresentation of the rules.
Nothing states that you ignore the fact that you are going to ground behind a ruin either which only grants a +1. Nothing in the BRB says that one rule supersedes the other. You make the choice on which you use but it comes out to 3+
This is the correct wording.
PrinceRaven just because Regron likes to say people are misrepresenting the rules doesn't mean he is right.
There is NO wording in the rule book that states you an area terrain is a 3+ save.
Please, quote the rule that limits GTG in area terrain to the area terrain cover save. You'd be the first.
Stating that it only applies to the area terrain cover save and that that's somehow "clear" from the rules is blatantly misstating what the rules actually say.
osirisx69 wrote: I love how people come on here and blatantly break the rules by posting opinions about "other" posters, also how they don't add to the discussion with there passive aggress remarks. Like a back handed attack on other poster. Of course he is protected because he didn't name any names but he sure got his dig in didn't he!
Fine. I'll be more clear.
Your post quoted someone who blatantly misstated what the rules say.
As for my post it was a just a quote that matched perfectly to what people are saying is how the rules are run in most games
Which has nothing to do with what's actually written.
So coming in and saying that it, and I'll quote, "spells it out very clear" is factually incorrect. It doesn't clear anything up it just restates the same thing that's been said over and over in the thread.
So you added nothing and did so in a pompous "I'm right no matter what." way.
PrinceRaven wrote: Once again, taking a ruins cover save doesn't mean that you have ceased to be going to ground in area terrain. Rigeld is right in calling this a blatant misrepresentation of the rules.
Nothing states that you ignore the fact that you are going to ground behind a ruin either which only grants a +1. Nothing in the BRB says that one rule supersedes the other. You make the choice on which you use but it comes out to 3+
This is the correct wording.
PrinceRaven just because Regron likes to say people are misrepresenting the rules doesn't mean he is right.
There is NO wording in the rule book that states you an area terrain is a 3+ save.
Please, quote the rule that limits GTG in area terrain to the area terrain cover save. You'd be the first.
Stating that it only applies to the area terrain cover save and that that's somehow "clear" from the rules is blatantly misstating what the rules actually say.
Do you ignore your own pomp, "cool story bro." Osiris was just presenting his side, anything beyond the statement of belief was perceived.
POKEYtheBIG wrote: Do you ignore your own pomp, "cool story bro." Osiris was just presenting his side, anything beyond the statement of belief was perceived.
He said it "spells it out very clear". That's not presenting his opinion, that's stating that the rules are clear.
They're demonstrably not - unless you misstate the rules.
osirisx69 wrote: I love how people come on here and blatantly break the rules by posting opinions about "other" posters, also how they don't add to the discussion with there passive aggress remarks. Like a back handed attack on other poster. Of course he is protected because he didn't name any names but he sure got his dig in didn't he!
Fine. I'll be more clear.
Your post quoted someone who blatantly misstated what the rules say.
As for my post it was a just a quote that matched perfectly to what people are saying is how the rules are run in most games
Which has nothing to do with what's actually written.
So coming in and saying that it, and I'll quote, "spells it out very clear" is factually incorrect. It doesn't clear anything up it just restates the same thing that's been said over and over in the thread.
So you added nothing and did so in a pompous "I'm right no matter what." way.
PrinceRaven wrote: Once again, taking a ruins cover save doesn't mean that you have ceased to be going to ground in area terrain. Rigeld is right in calling this a blatant misrepresentation of the rules.
Nothing states that you ignore the fact that you are going to ground behind a ruin either which only grants a +1. Nothing in the BRB says that one rule supersedes the other. You make the choice on which you use but it comes out to 3+
This is the correct wording.
PrinceRaven just because Regron likes to say people are misrepresenting the rules doesn't mean he is right.
There is NO wording in the rule book that states you an area terrain is a 3+ save.
Please, quote the rule that limits GTG in area terrain to the area terrain cover save. You'd be the first.
Stating that it only applies to the area terrain cover save and that that's somehow "clear" from the rules is blatantly misstating what the rules actually say.
You have not shown where it applies to ruins. Ruins rule states you get a +1. If you are using the ruins cover save you use the rules for ruins; your area terrain never comes into play except for you that are trying to rule lawyer for an advantage.
osirisx69 wrote: I love how people come on here and blatantly break the rules by posting opinions about "other" posters, also how they don't add to the discussion with there passive aggress remarks. Like a back handed attack on other poster. Of course he is protected because he didn't name any names but he sure got his dig in didn't he!
Fine. I'll be more clear.
Your post quoted someone who blatantly misstated what the rules say.
As for my post it was a just a quote that matched perfectly to what people are saying is how the rules are run in most games
Which has nothing to do with what's actually written.
So coming in and saying that it, and I'll quote, "spells it out very clear" is factually incorrect. It doesn't clear anything up it just restates the same thing that's been said over and over in the thread.
So you added nothing and did so in a pompous "I'm right no matter what." way.
PrinceRaven wrote: Once again, taking a ruins cover save doesn't mean that you have ceased to be going to ground in area terrain. Rigeld is right in calling this a blatant misrepresentation of the rules.
Nothing states that you ignore the fact that you are going to ground behind a ruin either which only grants a +1. Nothing in the BRB says that one rule supersedes the other. You make the choice on which you use but it comes out to 3+
This is the correct wording.
PrinceRaven just because Regron likes to say people are misrepresenting the rules doesn't mean he is right.
There is NO wording in the rule book that states you an area terrain is a 3+ save.
Please, quote the rule that limits GTG in area terrain to the area terrain cover save. You'd be the first.
Stating that it only applies to the area terrain cover save and that that's somehow "clear" from the rules is blatantly misstating what the rules actually say.
LMAO asking a person to quote a rule that YOU completely made up is asinine. The rule states going to ground grants +1 to your cover save unless you are in area terrain and then its +2.
"It is a 3+ cover save, either way you go.
The model has 2 separate cover saves, a 5+ from area and 4+ from Ruins.
When you GTG, the Area Terrain is improved by 2 and the Ruin Save is improved by 1, both becoming 3+ saves. Cover saves don't overwrite each other, they both exist and you take the best. "
POKEYtheBIG wrote: You have not shown where it applies to ruins. Ruins rule states you get a +1. If you are using the ruins cover save you use the rules for ruins; your area terrain never comes into play except for you that are trying to rule lawyer for an advantage.
Where does it say that in the ruins rules? I can't find it (due to my own incompetence) any chance you could give me a reference?
POKEYtheBIG wrote: You have not shown where it applies to ruins. Ruins rule states you get a +1.
Citation required. You mean the general GTG rules? That's fair.
And what do the Area Terrain GTG rules modify? Oh...
If you are using the ruins cover save you use the rules for ruins; your area terrain never comes into play except for you that are trying to rule lawyer for an advantage.
This is hilarious. Seriously - I laughed. You're making the assumption I play this way. That's a poor assumption at best. Perhaps instead of assuming you should ask HIWPI, because those two things don't always match up.
I'm looking at the actual rules and discussing the actual rules with no bias involved.
POKEYtheBIG wrote: You have not shown where it applies to ruins. Ruins rule states you get a +1. If you are using the ruins cover save you use the rules for ruins; your area terrain never comes into play except for you that are trying to rule lawyer for an advantage.
Where does it say that in the ruins rules? I can't find it (due to my own incompetence) any chance you could give me a reference?
Under rules for GTG--as the rule applies to ruins and area as separate cover types.
The rule actually says that "Models in area terrain receive a 5+ cover save, regardless of whether or not they are 25% obscured. Models that Go To ground in area terrain receive +2 to their cover save rather than +1" (BRBpg. 91. Emphasis mine). Note, it doesn't say "receive +2 to their area terrain cover save" just "their cover save". Ruins also do not provide a "ruins cover save" just a "cover save".
The distinction some are looking for in this thread simply isn't present because of GW's incompetence at defining their terms.
POKEYtheBIG wrote: You have not shown where it applies to ruins. Ruins rule states you get a +1. If you are using the ruins cover save you use the rules for ruins; your area terrain never comes into play except for you that are trying to rule lawyer for an advantage.
Where does it say that in the ruins rules? I can't find it (due to my own incompetence) any chance you could give me a reference?
" Ruins are not a subcategory of area terrain in 6th ed, unlike 5th. Ruins are solid terrain offering 4+ cover. And IF they have a base, that base is also area terrain. Area terrain, in 6th, is a defined flat area of terrain (with raised elements) which grants non-vehicle models in the area a 5+ save. This 5+ save can be improved by 2 pips by Going to Ground in it, reaching a 3+ cover save. If a model is instead physically obscured by the raised elements of a Ruin, they can claim a 4+ cover save; but this is not coming from Area Terrain, and thus if you GtG with it, you still only get a 3+ cover save (all examples assuming no other stacking special rules like Stealth).
Arguments that the +2 can be applied to other cover saves than the 5+ from area ignore the context of that provision. "
The rule actually says that "Models in area terrain receive a 5+ cover save, regardless of whether or not they are 25% obscured. Models that Go To ground in area terrain receive +2 to their cover save rather than +1" (BRBpg. 91. Emphasis mine). Note, it doesn't say "receive +2 to their area terrain cover save" just "their cover save". Ruins also do not provide a "ruins cover save" just a "cover save".
The distinction some are looking for in this thread simply isn't present because of GW's incompetence at defining their terms.
Yep, so if the model is 90% obscured by the ruins but ARE still in the area terrain they get a 5+ save lowered to 3+ if they GTG
PrinceRaven wrote: Once again, taking a ruins cover save doesn't mean that you have ceased to be going to ground in area terrain. Rigeld is right in calling this a blatant misrepresentation of the rules.
Are you in ruins------> circle yes or no
Are you in area terrain-----> circle yes or no.
The ruins are ruins and the area terrain is area terrain. They are not the same. So the flow chart would look like this.
If you answered yes to ruins and gtg then you are +3 save.
If you answered no to ruins and you gtg then it is 6+ save.
If you answered yes to area terrain and gtg then its a 3+ save.
If you answered no to area terrain its a 6+ save.
This is paraphrasing flow chart from the BRB
And if I am both obscured by ruins and in area terrain?
PrinceRaven wrote: Once again, taking a ruins cover save doesn't mean that you have ceased to be going to ground in area terrain. Rigeld is right in calling this a blatant misrepresentation of the rules.
Are you in ruins------> circle yes or no
Are you in area terrain-----> circle yes or no.
The ruins are ruins and the area terrain is area terrain. They are not the same. So the flow chart would look like this.
If you answered yes to ruins and gtg then you are +3 save.
If you answered no to ruins and you gtg then it is 6+ save.
If you answered yes to area terrain and gtg then its a 3+ save.
If you answered no to area terrain its a 6+ save.
This is paraphrasing flow chart from the BRB
And if I am both obscured by ruins and in area terrain?
I thought terrain and models give you cover "saves", not that there was a ruin type cover and area terrain type cover save.
Do explain further please?
Your being asinine helps how?
He's pointing out that your argument makes assumptions not supported by the rules.
That's hardly "asinine" (being neither stupid nor foolish, let alone "extremely").
I thought terrain and models give you cover "saves", not that there was a ruin type cover and area terrain type cover save.
Do explain further please?
Your being asinine helps how?
He's pointing out that your argument makes assumptions not supported by the rules.
That's hardly "asinine" (being neither stupid nor foolish, let alone "extremely").
My intent was easily understood and I'm well aware of the definition. And if that is what you're called to defend that speaks to you as well.
nosferatu1001 wrote: Yes; and your intent also has no basis in rules. Check out the tenets - you're being asked to back up your assertions, and havent managed to
He did back it up. He quoted and everything. I understood what he said.
POKEYtheBIG wrote: You have not shown where it applies to ruins. Ruins rule states you get a +1. If you are using the ruins cover save you use the rules for ruins; your area terrain never comes into play except for you that are trying to rule lawyer for an advantage.
Where does it say that in the ruins rules? I can't find it (due to my own incompetence) any chance you could give me a reference?
" Ruins are not a subcategory of area terrain in 6th ed, unlike 5th. Ruins are solid terrain offering 4+ cover. And IF they have a base, that base is also area terrain. Area terrain, in 6th, is a defined flat area of terrain (with raised elements) which grants non-vehicle models in the area a 5+ save. This 5+ save can be improved by 2 pips by Going to Ground in it, reaching a 3+ cover save. If a model is instead physically obscured by the raised elements of a Ruin, they can claim a 4+ cover save; but this is not coming from Area Terrain, and thus if you GtG with it, you still only get a 3+ cover save (all examples assuming no other stacking special rules like Stealth).
Arguments that the +2 can be applied to other cover saves than the 5+ from area ignore the context of that provision. "
The rule actually says that "Models in area terrain receive a 5+ cover save, regardless of whether or not they are 25% obscured. Models that Go To ground in area terrain receive +2 to their cover save rather than +1" (BRBpg. 91. Emphasis mine). Note, it doesn't say "receive +2 to their area terrain cover save" just "their cover save". Ruins also do not provide a "ruins cover save" just a "cover save".
The distinction some are looking for in this thread simply isn't present because of GW's incompetence at defining their terms.
Yep, so if the model is 90% obscured by the ruins but ARE still in the area terrain they get a 5+ save lowered to 3+ if they GTG
No, because models always take the best save that they can. However, since they have have gone to ground in area terrain they receive a +2 bonus to their save since, as I have argued, the wording for the area terrain save means that it applies to your cover save regardless of what piece of terrain you are getting your save from as long as you are still in area terrain.
This may not make sense from a game play standpoint until you remember that 40k uses TLOS to determine cover saves. You get that 4+ because, from the firers view, you are obscured by the ruins. Whether or not you chose to go to ground in the area terrain is irrelevant.
nosferatu1001 wrote: Yes; and your intent also has no basis in rules. Check out the tenets - you're being asked to back up your assertions, and havent managed to
He did back it up. He quoted and everything. I understood what he said.
That's why he didn't break any rules.
Rules were quoted, which did not back up their assertion.
There us no "area terrain cover save" that the improved gtg is applied to. Just a cover save. My cover save is 4+, and I add 2 to it. I now have a 2+.
It is worked out by order of operations. You are shot at, hit, wounded, then cover saves are determined. Are you receiving a cover save from the ruins for 4+ or from area terrain 5+. Once it is determined which, you may then choose to GTG. If you are receiving a cover save from a piece of ruins the fact that you're in area terrain never plays into the formula as you get +1 for GTG behind a ruin. If you are determined to receive a cover save from area terrain then you get your +2. One does not affect the other. It is not written "you get a +1 to your cover save for GTG behind ruins UNLESS you are also in area which grants you a +2." It is one or the other. Your assumptions are far too liberal in thinking otherwise.
"The rule actually says that "Models in area terrain receive a 5+ cover save, regardless of whether or not they are 25% obscured. Models that Go To ground in area terrain receive +2 to their cover save rather than +1"
Permission has been given to use +2 GTG in area terrain only. Please post page\paragraph the states RUINS also get the +2 GTG save.
Ruins are not area terrain, there ruins. Area terrain is not ruins its area terrain.
Again anytime you have to make a leap to apply a rule that doesn't even exit ( ruins getting 2+ save ) you really should have actual reference.
Is it Area terrain or Ruins? that's really the crux to this. The people want the advantage of getting 2+ from just standing on the AREA terrain that is close to the ruin.
What page says you get +2 GtG for standing next to a ruin?
Remember its a permissive game.
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POKEYtheBIG wrote: It is worked out by order of operations. You are shot at, hit, wounded, then cover saves are determined. Are you receiving a cover save from the ruins for 4+ or from area terrain 5+. Once it is determined which, you may then choose to GTG. If you are receiving a cover save from a piece of ruins the fact that you're in area terrain never plays into the formula as you get +1 for GTG behind a ruin. If you are determined to receive a cover save from area terrain then you get your +2. One does not affect the other. It is not written "you get a +1 to your cover save for GTG behind ruins UNLESS you are also in area which grants you a +2." It is one or the other. Your assumptions are far too liberal in thinking otherwise.
osirisx69 wrote: Permission has been given to use +2 GTG in area terrain only. Please post page\paragraph the states RUINS also get the +2 GTG save.
Slight correction - models that GTG in area terrain get +2 to their cover save instead of +1. The cover save for area terrain is not modified - the model gets a different modifier to their cover save.
osirisx69 wrote: "The rule actually says that "Models in area terrain receive a 5+ cover save, regardless of whether or not they are 25% obscured. Models that Go To ground in area terrain receive +2 to their cover save rather than +1"
Permission has been given to use +2 GTG in area terrain only. Please post page\paragraph the states RUINS also get the +2 GTG save.
Ruins are not area terrain, there ruins. Area terrain is not ruins its area terrain.
Again anytime you have to make a leap to apply a rule that doesn't even exit ( ruins getting 2+ save ) you really should have actual reference.
Is it Area terrain or Ruins? that's really the crux to this. The people want the advantage of getting 2+ from just standing on the AREA terrain that is close to the ruin.
What page says you get +2 GtG for standing next to a ruin?
Remember its a permissive game.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
POKEYtheBIG wrote: It is worked out by order of operations. You are shot at, hit, wounded, then cover saves are determined. Are you receiving a cover save from the ruins for 4+ or from area terrain 5+. Once it is determined which, you may then choose to GTG. If you are receiving a cover save from a piece of ruins the fact that you're in area terrain never plays into the formula as you get +1 for GTG behind a ruin. If you are determined to receive a cover save from area terrain then you get your +2. One does not affect the other. It is not written "you get a +1 to your cover save for GTG behind ruins UNLESS you are also in area which grants you a +2." It is one or the other. Your assumptions are far too liberal in thinking otherwise.
He ninja'ed me
Except the rule doesnt say any of that. Again, you are assuming that the terrain rules are somehow exclusive towards each other. The thing with the area terrain rule is that it presents two conditions that need to be met to gain its benefit. 1)Your model must be in it. (This is the important part. It doesnt say "If your model is taking an area terrain save") and 2) It must go to ground.
Whether or not it is actually taking that save is irrelevant as the rule doesnt require it. The devil is in the details with this one.
POKEYtheBIG wrote: It is worked out by order of operations. You are shot at, hit, wounded, then cover saves are determined. Are you receiving a cover save from the ruins for 4+ or from area terrain 5+. Once it is determined which, you may then choose to GTG. If you are receiving a cover save from a piece of ruins the fact that you're in area terrain never plays into the formula as you get +1 for GTG behind a ruin. If you are determined to receive a cover save from area terrain then you get your +2. One does not affect the other. It is not written "you get a +1 to your cover save for GTG behind ruins UNLESS you are also in area which grants you a +2." It is one or the other. Your assumptions are far too liberal in thinking otherwise.
I think this covers it nicely. I get shot, my opponent hits, we get down to models eye view, he asks what terrain I am in, we see I am behind a ruin. I decided to GtG so my save is modified +1.
If I was in area terrain and I went to ground it would be +2 to modify my save.
Thats not how the rule works, though. Again, you are assuming there is a provision that stops the two terrain bonuses from stacking.
To use the twice quotes example, here is how it would go. Your unit gets shot while it was behind a ruin on a base. You get a 4+ cover save from the ruin but you decide to go to ground. This fullfills the the other condition of getting a +2 to your save since your models are still in area terrain. You dont lose the benefits of area terrain by not taking its save since its benefits are not dependent on that condition.
rigeld2 wrote: But you're not just obscured by a ruin. You're also in area terrain.
This is the best description.
Ruins are not a subcategory of area terrain in 6th ed, unlike 5th. Ruins are solid terrain offering 4+ cover. And IF they have a base, that base is also area terrain. Area terrain, in 6th, is a defined flat area of terrain (with raised elements) which grants non-vehicle models in the area a 5+ save. This 5+ save can be improved by 2 pips by Going to Ground in it, reaching a 3+ cover save. If a model is instead physically obscured by the raised elements of a Ruin, they can claim a 4+ cover save; but this is not coming from Area Terrain, and thus if you GtG with it, you still only get a 3+ cover save (all examples assuming no other stacking special rules like Stealth).
Arguments that the +2 can be applied to other cover saves than the 5+ from area ignore the context of that provision.
osirisx69 wrote: This 5+ save can be improved by 2 pips by Going to Ground in it
This rule does not exist. Please stop pretending it does.
WOW, ok so now regild says gtg does NOT improve your save in area terrain by +2
He wants you to quote where does the "5+ save is improved by 2" rule which you are making up .
"The rule actually says that "Models in area terrain receive a 5+ cover save, regardless of whether or not they are 25% obscured. Models that Go To ground in area terrain receive +2 to their cover save rather than +1"
osirisx69 wrote: This 5+ save can be improved by 2 pips by Going to Ground in it
This rule does not exist. Please stop pretending it does.
WOW, ok so now regild says gtg does NOT improve your save in area terrain by +2
rigeld2. It's not hard. You used all the right letters. Please use them in the right order.
And no, I didn't say that. At all. See what I quoted? Cite that rule. The rule does not say that the 5+ save is improved by 2. Ever. If it did this conversation wouldn't exist.
It says that the GTG modifier is changed to a 2 instead of a 1. Note how it doesn't address what save that GTG modifier modifies? See how that's different from what you said?
The confusing is people are thinking ruins are area terrain and they are not.
Pg 98 BRB tells you ruins mounted on a base to treat the base as area terrain.
All area terrain is 5+. So GtG in area terrain gives you +2 for a 3+ cover save.
25% obscured by ruins is a 4+, and GtG gives you +1 for a 3+ cover save.
So it's moot the best you get without special abilities, wargear, nightfight, or a aegis defense line is a 3+.
Also if you GtG in area terrain it means exactly that area terrain. If you GtG while concealed by ruins you are GtG in ruins. Just because you are also in area terrain does not mean add +2 to the 4+ ruin cover save,
Wagguy80 wrote: The confusing is people are thinking ruins are area terrain and they are not.
Pg 98 BRB tells you ruins mounted on a base to treat the base as area terrain.
All area terrain is 5+. So GtG in area terrain gives you +2 for a 3+ cover save.
25% obscured by ruins is a 4+, and GtG gives you +1 for a 3+ cover save.
So it's moot the best you get without special abilities, wargear, nightfight, or a aegis defense line is a 3+.
Also if you GtG in area terrain it means exactly that area terrain. If you GtG while concealed by ruins you are GtG in ruins. Just because you are also in area terrain does not mean add +2 to the 4+ ruin cover save,
It is possible to have a 4+ save from a ruin (say, in midfield between the shooter and the victim), and still be in area terrain (i.e. deployed into woods). That way, if the unit chooses to Go to Ground, the unit has Gone to Ground in Area Terrain, granting it +2 to its cover save, and a 4+ is the best save available (which the rules demand that we take) so it is modified to a 2+.
I'm trying to find this requirement for using your cover save granted by that piece of area terrain to gain the go to ground bonus, the only requirements I see are being in area terrain and going to ground.
Because GtG is based on the save taken. Which is why the +2 is only listed under Area terrain and not under GtG under Cover Saves.
So you can RAW and argue it and leave it up to the judges, or RAI and take the 3+ either way. The whole book is based on a level of cooperation between the two players. So you can always put the question to them before the game starts. He'll either agree or dissagree. As long as he's not taking 3+ cover saves while GtG in area terrain and behind ruins while your taking 2+ cover saves there shouldn't be any problem.
Wagguy80 wrote: Because GtG is based on the save taken. Which is why the +2 is only listed under Area terrain and not under GtG under Cover Saves.
So you can RAW and argue it and leave it up to the judges, or RAI and take the 3+ either way. The whole book is based on a level of cooperation between the two players. So you can always put the question to them before the game starts. He'll either agree or dissagree. As long as he's not taking 3+ cover saves while GtG in area terrain and behind ruins while your taking 2+ cover saves there shouldn't be any problem.
No, that's not how it works. The rule says that when you are in area terrain and you go to ground you get a +2 to your cover save. Note that it doesn't say "You add a +2 to your area terrain save", "This benefit may only be conferred when the area terrain save is the highest cover save" nor "You may not apply this to any other cover save". It just says add +2 to your cover save as long as you meet the two conditions of being in the area terrain and going to ground in it.
Btw, he entire point of this forum is trying to determine the RAW.
Wagguy80 wrote: Because GtG is based on the save taken. Which is why the +2 is only listed under Area terrain and not under GtG under Cover Saves.
So you can RAW and argue it and leave it up to the judges, or RAI and take the 3+ either way. The whole book is based on a level of cooperation between the two players. So you can always put the question to them before the game starts. He'll either agree or dissagree. As long as he's not taking 3+ cover saves while GtG in area terrain and behind ruins while your taking 2+ cover saves there shouldn't be any problem.
How do you know RAI is a 3+? Maybe they wanted to reflect the durability of the cover (4+ ruins) being stacked upon the inability of the unit to see the target well (going to ground in area terrain)?
Wagguy80 wrote: Because GtG is based on the save taken. Which is why the +2 is only listed under Area terrain and not under GtG under Cover Saves.
A) No it isn't, it's based on the terrain you're going to ground in.
B) Have you considered that it is listed under area terrain because it's an area terrain rule?
If that were the case under cover saves they would have simply stated that being GtG in area terrain grants an additional +1 modifier to your cover save.
Instead it's listed only under Area terrain when discussion cover saves provided by area terrain.
Wagguy80 wrote: If that were the case under cover saves they would have simply stated that being GtG in area terrain grants an additional +1 modifier to your cover save.
Instead it's listed only under Area terrain when discussion cover saves provided by area terrain.
Edit: And under GtG for Aegis defense lines
No. The +2 is not tied to the area terrain cover save at all thanks to the way it's worded. The rule is about bonuses granted by going to ground in area terrain.
I can never tell if people are trolling or are just angry because they lost a game one time because of a 2+ save and it forever haunts every facet of their being.
RAW it is a 2+ and anyone who feels differently is lying to themselves. Sure, it's written in the same section as area terrain. So what? Dozens of rules are written throughout the book in the exact same manner. Hell, sometimes rules are written in multiple places! Just like that one rule, what's it called... oh yea, GTG! There is no RAW assertion anyone can make to explicitly tie the GTG +2 bonus to only area terrain. The only thing people keep repeating is "well, it's in the area terrain section". So? Does the GTG rule specifically say "only applies to area terrain saves? Because that's what it would need to say to be a rule. "2+ saves are all over the place, it's not like this is something special or game breaking.
What about guys with stealth going to ground in area terrain behind a bastion during night fighting from 25" away gaining shrouded? -2+ armor save ftw!
Wagguy80 wrote: If that were the case under cover saves they would have simply stated that being GtG in area terrain grants an additional +1 modifier to your cover save.
Instead it's listed only under Area terrain when discussion cover saves provided by area terrain.
Edit: And under GtG for Aegis defense lines
You mean just like how dealing with assaulting into a ruin is in the assault phase section? Or how shooting at vehicles is in the shooting section? Or how moving through difficult terrain is in the movement section?
. I also agree that this could have been written as you suggested and make our gaming much easier or a simple 