His Master's Voice wrote: Hey guys, please bring back Epic, Necromunda, Warmaster, Mordheim, release that Inquisitor game and bring back good White Dwarf kthx bye.
Yeah, that should do the job.
You forgot Battlefleet Gothic. You should never forget BFG.
Hmm, meh, either way, it doesn't tell you very much others haven't already guessed or made up anyway. Seriously, in this day and age, how come one of our tech savy dakkites hasn't managed to hack into GW or something to find out the truth!
His Master's Voice wrote: Hey guys, please bring back Epic, Necromunda, Warmaster, Mordheim, release that Inquisitor game and bring back good White Dwarf kthx bye.
I think in part of the forum conversation the GW manager says that Dreadfleet sold terribly and he still had copies kicking around his store. I think that was in reference to specialist games... So the outlook isn't so good.
There is that Chaos in the Old World game... Wonder how that sold. Plus GW had to notice the attention HeroQuest got recently. My bet is a new board game or specialist game would sell to old-hats and new-hats... Especially right around Christmas. That's just my thoughts though...
gravitywell wrote: I think in part of the forum conversation the GW manager says that Dreadfleet sold terribly and he still had copies kicking around his store. I think that was in reference to specialist games... So the outlook isn't so good.
I'd like to think that GW's market research abilities extend a bit beyond "Space Hulk sold very well, sold out in fact, but forget about that. Our not-asked for and not-wanted murder of the old Man'O'War game didn't do very well, so let's never ever do another specialist game ever again. Ever."
I'd like to think that...
And then there's this:
A GW Store Manager wrote:GWs policy towards online interaction is that it's a waste of time...
His Master's Voice wrote: Hey guys, please bring back Epic, Necromunda, Warmaster, Mordheim, release that Inquisitor game and bring back good White Dwarf kthx bye.
I think in part of the forum conversation the GW manager says that Dreadfleet sold terribly and he still had copies kicking around his store. I think that was in reference to specialist games... So the outlook isn't so good.
Of course it sold terribly. No one wanted or asked for it, and it was a limited release.
GW's business strategies are bizarre...
Kroothawk wrote: No GW store manager has Dreadfleet boxes still kicking around, they were all called back a while ago. Sounds fishy even for a one-man-store-staff.
That was my thought too when I read that. I call fake!
A GW Store Manager wrote:
GWs policy towards online interaction is that it's a waste of time...
Actually I found that bit the saddest really. Do they not look at the other, often quite interactive communities that exist with other wargames companies, and those where official spokesmen are able to have some form of dialogue and constructive feedback with their customers? But, so much easier I suppose to say that it's because all of the fans are whiners and will complain whatever you do, so probably best not to bother and continue to pat each other on the back for a job well done.
The disregard and contempt for the fan-base is practically dripping off the people that run that company. The cancelling of official events & tournaments, of reducing Games Day to a store with a longer queue, the 'limited edition' army books that are about 80% of the content you read in the last one, with pay-for updates that come weeks later. It couldn't be more obvious if they released a monthly magazine with nothing but pictures in it and attempted to flog it to people as a substitute to those who had paid for a White Dwarf subscription...
As for the staff, I think generally it's fun while it lasts. It was great fun when I was there years ago, with 3-4 staff in even small stores, although I doubt the one-man show who work there now get much of a chance to stop and think about anything in-between running between answering the phone, cleaning, painting the minis for the window and running an intro game. Not sure if the standard GW-staffer 'life span' has changed as a result; it used to be 6-12 months, depending on how quickly the appeal of cheap minis wore off, and how quickly the management spiel filled up your BS-O-Meter.
++EDIT++ Wow, that came out sounding incredibly bitter! I suppose, when you see what something once was, how a company used genuinely have a desire to create wonderful imagery and fun games for fans that they cared about, it's painful to see it change into something where that patently isn't the case...
Isn't it funny that the GW Manager actually used that old trick of comparing prices of 5 years ago.
I recently bought a Tamiya Tiger Tank of 1/35th scale and it had only gone up in price of a few dollars in 15 years.
Now consider this i could buy 4 years ago a 24 man box of Mordor Orcs for $41.00 dollars and now to make up that number i have to buy 2 boxes of 12 man Mordor Orcs at $37.00 dollars each costing a grand total of $74.00. They also did that to Imperial Guard Cadian Shock Troops cut the box from 20 per to 10 per and heavily jacked up the prices. That's why GW has problems.
I know i saw overnight the death of Lord of the Rings in my area, it went from healthy participation to Death Valley in the space of the month dozens of gamers junked their LotR armies, it has never recovered.
However something tells me this faked, it is a gut feeling, this i suspect was staged.
Ah. Yeah well not surprising really. I don't envy the poor sod/s who had to face the horde of screaming, ranting and raving Dakknauts who charged headlong at them with a million and 1 questions about this and that.
gravitywell wrote: I think in part of the forum conversation the GW manager says that Dreadfleet sold terribly and he still had copies kicking around his store. I think that was in reference to specialist games... So the outlook isn't so good.
I'd like to think that GW's market research abilities extend a bit beyond "Space Hulk sold very well, sold out in fact, but forget about that. Our not-asked for and not-wanted murder of the old Man'O'War game didn't do very well, so let's never ever do another specialist game ever again. Ever."
I'd like to think that...
And then there's this:
A GW Store Manager wrote:GWs policy towards online interaction is that it's a waste of time...
Well, if you look at introducing 'online interaction' in a vacuum, then yes, it is a waste of time.
Every answer would be 'no' or 'check out this weeks copy of White Dwarf!', or maybe 'check out NEXT weeks copy of White Dwarf' if they loosened the chain a little.
They would have to fundamentally change their level of transparency to make it worth doing.
Whoever this was, if they were legitimate, they were not sufficiently on the ladder to contribute in any other way than 'this is the company line', 'people online are hostile to GW so GW doesn't want to interact' and 'there is no problem, everything is working as it's supposed to, my bosses said so'.
1 man store managers are kiosk operatives, not game designers, not master sculptors and not directors.
And then I read this:
we are paid well above what could be considered fair. And, having seen what everyone was being paid in GWUK in 2010, unless there has been a major upscale in the last 3 years, decided this person is 'something of an optimist' as the store managers were paid less than the junior clerks in the office I was working in when I saw the salaries.
And then I read this:
we are paid well above what could be considered fair. And, having seen what everyone was being paid in GWUK in 2010, unless there has been a major upscale in the last 3 years, decided this person is 'something of an optimist' as the store managers were paid less than the junior clerks in the office I was working in when I saw the salaries.
He states his salary at $33k/year. So yeah, he is a pretty upbeat guy. The way be sees it, he gets to sit around playing with models all day. If anything, he should be paying GW for the privilege. He just doesn't want to give Kirby any ideas yet.
I opened and ran the one man store here in Hyde Park, OH and while I no longer work for GW most of the stuff he said sounds typical of the average one man operator. The salary and benefits he describe are right for their lower retail band of stores when it comes to fiscal performance (although his idea of profit margin vs. cost of store operations is definitely incorrect). They have been busy cutting things back to the bone expensewise for these one man stores. When I was employed there were quarterly training trips to Memphis for hobby skills camps and trainers would come out to the stores to check on your progress and make sure you were doing things their way. This has all ceased for the most part from what I have heard from friends who have stayed longer than I did with them. The way he describes the dissemination of information is very accurate so it would surprise me if this person is current or worked for them recently. While their business methods seem strange and downright crazy sometimes they do have what they feel is a plan and while I dont agree with it at all (one reason I no longer work there) I do enjoy their product, although I buy far less than I used to since I don't have my employee discount anymore. One other thing that struck me as true was the manager's statements about how corporate GW feels about the 'net and the constant flames and complaints. They truly don't care and few in upper management there even bother to read it. It truly falls on deaf ears and they encourage their managers not to bother with it, another reason why I feel this is at the least a reasonably legit source. Like anything else you can take it with a grain of salt but I do know exactly what it is like to work with them so if you haven't worked for the company i would not be so quick to dismiss this person because if he doesn't run a store I would be surprised if it wasn't some type of leak from GW directly.
Everyone keeps going on and on about how much the "manager" gets paid. $33,000 is how much second level experienced people can expect to make in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. My wife is a host administrator for a national food chain, and she is making $32,000. Level 2 computer techs can expect to make around $33,000 starting. So, it really depends on where this person lives. I know on the coasts in America, $33,000 sounds like a joke. But, in Oklahoma, where the cost of living has stayed the same for decades, it is not a bad wage. In fact, if a couple were each earning that same amount, they would be considered "middle class" here. Just because houses cost hundreds of thousands of dollars in other states doesn't mean that is the case everywhere. I used to work in banking, and would help people set up their retirement in Oklahoma after they sold their small houses on the coast. They literally retired off of the money that they made selling their houses. So, keep this in mind before throwing GW under the buss...
The same corporate BS that sounds memorized. But then, I really don't see why anyone thought he would say anything else. Did you really think he would risk his job for a ten minute interview?
Snrub wrote: Didn't GW have a representative posting on Dakka back around 2012ish. What ever happened to him/them/it?
They were to linked with recruitment specifically.
We frightened them off.
And people wonder why they don't bother trying to reach out to the community. Seriously, the guy on Warseer posting was getting hounded by people about his salary, like they were entitled to know the full list of his benefits beyond his base pay, to the point he just stopped addressing them. If people are willing to give some random dude just trying to answer questions such a hard time why the feth would GW proper ever try to engage the community(outside Facebook)? There may have been a point when they could have turned it around by engaging people online, but at this point there are so many bitter people and people holding grudges, they would never stand a chance of gaining ground. I'm not defending some of the ridiculous things they have done as a company, but they clearly do not care to look for feedback on how their company is run.
His Master's Voice wrote: Hey guys, please bring back Epic, Necromunda, Warmaster, Mordheim, release that Inquisitor game and bring back good White Dwarf kthx bye.
Yeah, that should do the job.
I'd like to see Necromunda make a return. However they'll have to go back a few years for "good White Dwarf." They probably don't remember what that is.
I worked for GW and made $16 an hour 2010 to 2012. It was fairly close to the bottom of their pay scale. I haven't found any retail that pays close to that since. If you add in their medical and other benefits you find that they pay really well. All of this is compared to other retail. Most of what I have found (not counting Costco) is in the $10 - $12 range for other retail stores.
Does this mean I think he is legit? Meh... I've no idea. I will say his comment about having Dread Fleet laying around sounds false. We were ordered to pack up all of those and ship them back to the warehouse for destruction. Because that makes so much more sense than cutting the price and actually making some kind of money on them.
Also his comment about not knowing any more than customers is pretty much true. When metal was pulled from the store I was told two days before I had to pack it up. I think the only reason we were given a 2 day advance notice was that they sent us mailing labels and such so we could ship it all back to the warehouse. (Again, it makes so much sense to pay postage to mail things back to be destroyed instead of finding a way to sell it.)
I will say if he really does work for the company he gave enough clues I am sure they will figure out who it is and he wont be working there much longer. The "I only closed the store to go to my grandfather's funeral" bit is a nice little clue.
Thinking there's no reason to unionise because the pay is good is pretty dumb. Unions can help you with a lot more than that. I didn't join my union because I wasn't paid enough, I joined because of all the other legal protection I can be afforded. What if he has an accident at work his employer disputes? What if a customer makes an accusation of impropriety and you're sacked/disciplined? What if you're unfairly dismissed for other reasons? What you going to do then?
Anyway, I don't think the guy is genuine. On one hand he says that he doesn't get information about releases until just prior to delivery, but then talks at length about what GW wants and their various motivations for this and that approach. He sounds like he's drinking the kool aid a bit and claims knowledge of things I just don't think a manager is genuinely privy to, he's just guessing like everyone else.
And people wonder why they don't bother trying to reach out to the community.
Its the internet where are a large proportion of the population let their inner cretin out to play. Simply because some people are obnoxious children doesn't mean that the sensible course of action is to pretend that the internet doesn't exist.
I would happily do it if the job was more than simply being a corporate yes man.
I'm baffled by this. Not by the guys responses, that nonsense was all very predictable. But rather that he agreed to do this. GW is at war with its fanbase/customers, particularly those who frequent the internet. Was this some kind of late Christmas Truce or something? I mean yeah the manager was acting alone and revealed his orders to not interact on that new-fangled-internet, but given that he seemed supportive of GW's policies I don't see why he'd do it.
And the defense of "this is why GW doesn't come online! you criticize them!" is silly. Every other company in the world manages to have an online presence, and indeed they understand the important of customer interaction and social media. GW however is still pretending like it's 1993. The whole "we'll ignore everything online!" is laughably pathetic. You think Apple or Microsoft doesn't get criticized? Yet they still maintain a hefty online presence. Hell the Israeli secret police have a facebook, which is a step above GW.
Harriticus wrote: Every other company in the world manages to have an online presence, and indeed they understand the important of customer interaction and social media.
But not every company attempts to C&D a small independent writer for making a children's book with "Space Marine" in the title (and then runs away and hides when the press hits the fan, so to speak). The closest thing I can think of in recent weeks is King going after the 3-man team who made The Banner Saga (an ancient tale of vikings) for having the hide to use the word 'Saga' in their game name, something King does with its games (like 'Candy Crush Saga'), because clearly these things are so similar.
Now, assuming I want to see this as a best case scenario and not some random troll or a fake to increase the visitor counts:
What we have here is one good guy at the bottom of the food chain who probably likes the hobby as much as the next dude here and would love to have a friendly atmosphere at his FLGS and happy players and hobbyists around him, without having really valuable intel to share (because he doesn't have it either, not because he doesn't want to).
What I would love to have is someone 5 levels above with the same motivation but I guess they can't be bothered to actually care about their product, only about the revenue after tax.
Snrub wrote: Didn't GW have a representative posting on Dakka back around 2012ish. What ever happened to him/them/it?
They were to linked with recruitment specifically.
We frightened them off.
And people wonder why they don't bother trying to reach out to the community. Seriously, the guy on Warseer posting was getting hounded by people about his salary, like they were entitled to know the full list of his benefits beyond his base pay, to the point he just stopped addressing them. If people are willing to give some random dude just trying to answer questions such a hard time why the feth would GW proper ever try to engage the community(outside Facebook)? There may have been a point when they could have turned it around by engaging people online, but at this point there are so many bitter people and people holding grudges, they would never stand a chance of gaining ground. I'm not defending some of the ridiculous things they have done as a company, but they clearly do not care to look for feedback on how their company is run.
I have heard Warseer be referred to as Whineseer...for obvious reasons..
Back on topic, it is an interesting read that seems to confirm nearly everything that most of us thought about GW and their attitude to veterans.
That could mean it's true, or it could be a fabrication designed to feed our current thinking. If the latter, it doesn't mean our current thinking is wrong, of course.
The most interesting thing was the statement that new recruits don't care about prices. I can see that being correct in the sense that if you've decided to go in and buy the game, you've presumably already accepted the price to be paid. I wonder if the high prices put off potential recruits, though.
What I would love to have is someone 5 levels above with the same motivation but I guess they can't be bothered to actually care about their product, only about the revenue after tax.
I think the problem with GW, at its core, is that, a couple of long termers aside, no one customer focused gets to that level, the only way to climb that far is to be a corporate yes man. The culture within the parts of the company that dictate direction is so toxic to innovation and direction change because its simply a circle jerk of same thinking profiteers.
It is worth pointing out that most FTSE 100 companies (or fortune 500 for the US readers) learned 20 odd years ago the best way to run a business is through diversity, the senior management of those companies is filled with different backgrounds, quite deliberately, to get different perspectives on every decision they take.
Back on topic, it is an interesting read that seems to confirm nearly everything that most of us thought about GW and their attitude to veterans.
That could mean it's true, or it could be a fabrication designed to feed our current thinking. If the latter, it doesn't mean our current thinking is wrong, of course.
The most interesting thing was the statement that new recruits don't care about prices. I can see that being correct in the sense that if you've decided to go in and buy the game, you've presumably already accepted the price to be paid. I wonder if the high prices put off potential recruits, though.
That's part of the problem. I consider myself a 'new recruit' I've only been into 40k for about 2 years now. I used to work in a model store so I knew the prices inside out and I accepted them for what they were. I quite happily paid £15 for my Assault Squad box but now I'm asked to pay £20.50 for the exact same thing. I don't see any difference other than an extra £5. I'm already disenchanted with GW's pricing policy and I'm a n00b still!
Thankfully I'm stupidly lucky and because of that former job and the fact my FLGS offers 10% to members, I've rarely paid full price for any of the stuff I've bought. I try and avoid buying direct from GW if I can help it but I'm coming close to pulling out of the hobby because of games like Dropzone Commander and Bolt Action, which are a lot more fun to play and you can get bigger army's for a lot cheaper. I think 1000 points of BA was nearly £230, the same for Bolt Action Japanese was about £70
It's all well and good saying new players are more accepting of the price at the beginning but after how many price increases are those same players still around? That'll be an interesting thing to find out.
After two years you're no longer a new recruit. I would regard a recruit as someone in their first year, maybe 18 months at most. Allowing for three Christmas/Birthday gift receiving events.
The question is whether most people can finish an army in that time, and what proportion of people transitioning like you are from raw recruit upwards, stick with it in order to finish their army.
In other words, is it GW's strategy to milk recruits of the maximum possible in the first 1-2 years, then forget about them and chase the next wave?
That's part of the problem. I consider myself a 'new recruit' I've only been into 40k for about 2 years now. I used to work in a model store so I knew the prices inside out and I accepted them for what they were. I quite happily paid £15 for my Assault Squad box but now I'm asked to pay £20.50 for the exact same thing. I don't see any difference other than an extra £5. I'm already disenchanted with GW's pricing policy and I'm a n00b still!
Thankfully I'm stupidly lucky and because of that former job and the fact my FLGS offers 10% to members, I've rarely paid full price for any of the stuff I've bought. I try and avoid buying direct from GW if I can help it but I'm coming close to pulling out of the hobby because of games like Dropzone Commander and Bolt Action, which are a lot more fun to play and you can get bigger army's for a lot cheaper. I think 1000 points of BA was nearly £230, the same for Bolt Action Japanese was about £70
It's all well and good saying new players are more accepting of the price at the beginning but after how many price increases are those same players still around? That'll be an interesting thing to find out.
That's the whole strategy. GW doesn't care whether you spend another 20-30 bucks over the course of 3 years when they have enough freshmen they can sell a whole army for 200-300 pesos and be done with it.
With tabletop wargamers it's different than with say pc gamers. With time any PC gamer will buy a new rig and play new games so you better keep your fans happy and in line for your new products.
Tabletop gamers will probably not collect a dozen armies because they don't have time nor space for that (even without taking money into consideration). So a policy that focuses on taking say 250-300 bucks per newcommer and consider it done may actually work (at least in the short run).
Kilkrazy wrote: After two years you're no longer a new recruit. I would regard a recruit as someone in their first year, maybe 18 months at most. Allowing for three Christmas/Birthday gift receiving events.
The question is whether most people can finish an army in that time, and what proportion of people transitioning like you are from raw recruit upwards, stick with it in order to finish their army.
In other words, is it GW's strategy to milk recruits of the maximum possible in the first 1-2 years, then forget about them and chase the next wave?
Haven't they said they expect people to stop playing in a few months to a year? Honestly their business model reads like a Ponzi scheme.
Back on topic, it is an interesting read that seems to confirm nearly everything that most of us thought about GW and their attitude to veterans.
That could mean it's true, or it could be a fabrication designed to feed our current thinking. If the latter, it doesn't mean our current thinking is wrong, of course.
As far as I have been told, it is not about veteran gamers, per se but that a) negative feedback is almost immediately rejected due to a very brash corporate ego and b) because it's the internet, instead of reasoned explanations of the complaint, we get hyperbole, memes and rage and instead of GW filtering that for root cause issues, they instead get sensitive about it and retreat behind that moat and wall... They read the 3 rage comments and turn off the machine, instead of reading to the 4th reasoned explanation of the rage, come to a conclusion and hold onto it, almost exactly as reactionary and unprofessional as the people they accuse of 'being out to get them'... (and I'm not talking about the personal attacks against individuals at GW here, because that is almost universally out of order).
The most interesting thing was the statement that new recruits don't care about prices. I can see that being correct in the sense that if you've decided to go in and buy the game, you've presumably already accepted the price to be paid. I wonder if the high prices put off potential recruits, though.
This pertains to very young players with no sense of monetary worth and no bills to pay and a select few older players who ignore cost due to high earnings and few outgoings (no kids/no other significant hobbies/bachelor etc) and a high % of disposable income. GW's upper retail managers actively want to discourage this group from interacting with old gamers who are likely to be poisonous to the new recruit's buying habits.
All told, the retail side of the business teaches it's managers it's all about ignoring the demographic, writing them off as their spending has already decreased from the initial splash of building their first army, and concentrating on the next wave. I personally believe that this is a flawed model and they should really be building bridges to the majority of the community, who would forgive a vast amount with some better interacting and explaining, despite the prices. Even if a customer has fulfilled the lion's share of their buying, they remain a potential source of further revenue and a potential good ambassador for the company, rather than a bitter ex-lover.
I continue to hope and pray for a change in the thinking of the company.
Yeah it's something I've never understood. Even if the vet doesn't buy anything but a new rule/army book every 4 years, if you've kept your vets happy that's still a pretty safe, reliable income.
It's not as if the things that'd keep vets happy wouldn't also keep the recruits happy too.
Back on topic, it is an interesting read that seems to confirm nearly everything that most of us thought about GW and their attitude to veterans.
That could mean it's true, or it could be a fabrication designed to feed our current thinking. If the latter, it doesn't mean our current thinking is wrong, of course.
As far as I have been told, it is not about veteran gamers, per se but that a) negative feedback is almost immediately rejected due to a very brash corporate ego and b) because it's the internet, instead of reasoned explanations of the complaint, we get hyperbole, memes and rage and instead of GW filtering that for root cause issues, they instead get sensitive about it and retreat behind that moat and wall... They read the 3 rage comments and turn off the machine, instead of reading to the 4th reasoned explanation of the rage, come to a conclusion and hold onto it, almost exactly as reactionary and unprofessional as the people they accuse of 'being out to get them'... (and I'm not talking about the personal attacks against individuals at GW here, because that is almost universally out of order).
...
Yes, I get the impression that GW is a huge "yes" machine organised around Tom Kirby. He does after all fill both posts of Chairman and CEO, in defiance of best corporate practice rules, and this gives him a lot of power on top of his historical authority as a long term top manager and of course his large share holding.
Herzlos wrote: Yeah it's something I've never understood. Even if the vet doesn't buy anything but a new rule/army book every 4 years, if you've kept your vets happy that's still a pretty safe, reliable income.
It's not as if the things that'd keep vets happy wouldn't also keep the recruits happy too.
The spectre of Specialist Games once again raises its head.
I'm done with GW, not because I've rage quit, but because I've bought everything I want from them over the last few years, and thanks to their pricing and general behaviour, I don't wish to reward them with any more of my money by adding another army, which is all I really could do to start spending in any sort of amounts again. That's not to say I'm above giving them cash, while I'm often critical of them, I'm happy to praise too, so if people were to get the impression I was anti-GW from my posts here, that speaks as much to their actions as it does to my attitude.
If I could develop either of my 40K armies into a BFG fleet or Epic scale army, or both, I'd be all over it, subject to them (in a presumably new format) being fun to play and relatively affordable and available.
If a skirmish scale game was re-introduced as a starter game, you'd have a clear, defined life cycle for your customer. Skirmish-battle-alternate (naval/small scale or both) simultaneously giving the opportunity of extending the period of time a customer would remain with GW, giving people who had perhaps reached the end of the road with their 30mm game another avenue to spend, lowering barrier to entry and likely, assuming they didn't royally feth it up (which given recent behaviour is not a gimme) have many vets dancing in the streets.
Their meat grinder approach to customers is a bit distasteful, but it isn't terminally flawed, they aren't the first company to do it, and in an immature market like tabletop wargames where there aren't any other players operating at a scale large enough to really keep them honest, it is sustainable for an extended period (as we have seen, even if the latest figures are symptoms of what many assume they've still got years in them if they want to keep going this way) but as with many things GW, while the concept may be sound, the execution is decidedly sub-optimal.
That pretty much sums up my relationship with them as well. I've got a pretty complete armies for WHF/40K and don't feel the justification for starting another one. But I'd probably buy any box-games that came out in a non-LE manner (Since I've already owned most of them).
I'd love to start a skirmish gang or a marine chapter at epic scale though, but there's almost nothing left for me to buy from the current range that I want.
Herzlos wrote: Yeah it's something I've never understood. Even if the vet doesn't buy anything but a new rule/army book every 4 years, if you've kept your vets happy that's still a pretty safe, reliable income.
It's not as if the things that'd keep vets happy wouldn't also keep the recruits happy too.
Yeah it's always baffled me as well. Assuming that the "GW only cares about new blood" argument is true, I don't see start up prices that entice children or young adults. Maybe the starter box, but how many of these can you sell?
I've heard the "well vets have everything they need already" argument time and time again but I still do not buy it. I have never met an avid 40k or Fantasy player in the 15 plus years I've been addicted to this hobby that has started an army, collected to a playable points level, painted it, and says "ok, I'm good now. No need to even advertise to me any more"
Nope we keep buying plastic crack. And when we tire of Future Space Plastic we switch to High Fantasy Plastic before going back to Space plastic.
There are a few things people need to keep in mind as they read through the managers statements.
All he knows is what he's told and what he personally sees in his store.
For example, there is a dissonance between the idea of focusing mostly on new blood and then having a target of *only* selling 1 new customer a week. If that's what's going on across a large portion of GW stores then they have a serious problem with focus.
Why? Well, assuming that new customer is picking up a boxed set or a battleforce, codex and rulebook then we're only talking about $10k or less a year in new customer sales. He claims his store has about $150k in revenue which would mean new customer sales are only about 6% of total. Even if it were double that (unlikely) then new customer sales aren't where they need to focus.
GW says "new customers are where its at" The manager buys into it because his livelihood is dependent on it. The reality, based on the numbers we've been told, is that GW is clueless.
As a GW store "manager" he simply isn't paid to think about the reality of what's going on. He is told what is to stock on his shelf and to whom he should focus his attention. GW even gives him a plausible song and dance for their choices.
The sad thing is that I think he really is a GW manager. I also think he believes what he's saying. Which to me says that GW has absolutely lost all ability to understand their customers. Which means that it's going to be a long time before things change.
The sad thing is that I think he really is a GW manager. I also think he believes what he's saying. Which to me says that GW has absolutely lost all ability to understand their customers. Which means that it's going to be a long time before things change.
That's my thinking. It's either that or a really clever bit of marketing, but that isn't terribly plausible. It's just that if it isn't clever marketing...yea...it gives you a little glimpse into the world of GW.
Herzlos wrote: Yeah it's something I've never understood. Even if the vet doesn't buy anything but a new rule/army book every 4 years, if you've kept your vets happy that's still a pretty safe, reliable income.
It's not as if the things that'd keep vets happy wouldn't also keep the recruits happy too.
Yeah it's always baffled me as well. Assuming that the "GW only cares about new blood" argument is true, I don't see start up prices that entice children or young adults. Maybe the starter box, but how many of these can you sell?
I've heard the "well vets have everything they need already" argument time and time again but I still do not buy it. I have never met an avid 40k or Fantasy player in the 15 plus years I've been addicted to this hobby that has started an army, collected to a playable points level, painted it, and says "ok, I'm good now. No need to even advertise to me any more"
Nope we keep buying plastic crack. And when we tire of Future Space Plastic we switch to High Fantasy Plastic before going back to Space plastic.
I agree with this, they may prioritise the new gamer as this may make them more money but if they did not care about the income from vets then why produce any new models? A
ren't new models expensive to produce? If you have everything for that army already then you are only going to buy new things, but if you are just starting out everything is new to you, so no reason to produce new models.
Where as we are seeing five to seven new kits for each major release, that says to me that they are making at least some effort to market to the vets.
The sad thing is that I think he really is a GW manager. I also think he believes what he's saying. Which to me says that GW has absolutely lost all ability to understand their customers. Which means that it's going to be a long time before things change.
You are spot on - and though true, it is also a bit sad and depressing.
A GW Store Manager wrote:GWs policy towards online interaction is that it's a waste of time...
Well. That's problem number 1 right there.
Considering how many people active bash GW regardless of what they do, I can't say I disagree. It would be a huge waste of time.
Yeah, I mean, why on earth would you listen to feedback from your customers and try and adjust your approach?
Never mind that the worst critics were generally your most passionate supporters at one point, and that if you've managed to turn them into such a negative creatures then it should be taken as symptomatic of something being very wrong with how you're interacting with your customer base.
Stick with numbers dude, you've not got a clue about customer relations.
Why? Well, assuming that new customer is picking up a boxed set or a battleforce, codex and rulebook then we're only talking about $10k or less a year in new customer sales. He claims his store has about $150k in revenue which would mean new customer sales are only about 6% of total. Even if it were double that (unlikely) then new customer sales aren't where they need to focus.
GW says "new customers are where its at" The manager buys into it because his livelihood is dependent on it. The reality, based on the numbers we've been told, is that GW is clueless.
You're assuming by new customers, GW is referring to first-time buyers rather than people generally new to GW games. To use Killkrazy's example, that could be anyone within the first 18 months of starting up. That probably is their bread and butter. However, if you take one out of context quote from this GW manager and apply it as an example of overall GW practices, I guess you can form an argument that supports what you already believed, which is that GW is clueless.
A GW Store Manager wrote:GWs policy towards online interaction is that it's a waste of time...
Well. That's problem number 1 right there.
Considering how many people active bash GW regardless of what they do, I can't say I disagree. It would be a huge waste of time.
Yeah, I mean, why on earth would you listen to feedback from your customers and try and adjust your approach?
Never mind that the worst critics were generally your most passionate supporters at one point, and that if you've managed to turn them into such a negative creatures then it should be taken as symptomatic of something being very wrong with how you're interacting with your customer base.
Stick with numbers dude, you've not got a clue about customer relations.
Except there is the problem that not all customers want the same thing. So who to you listen to then? Everyone seems to think their opinion is best and they know how to improve GW, yet fail to understand that they may be in the minority. The echo chamber here on Dakka is not representative of the larger gaming community.
A GW Store Manager wrote:GWs policy towards online interaction is that it's a waste of time...
Well. That's problem number 1 right there.
Considering how many people active bash GW regardless of what they do, I can't say I disagree. It would be a huge waste of time.
Yeah, I mean, why on earth would you listen to feedback from your customers and try and adjust your approach?
Never mind that the worst critics were generally your most passionate supporters at one point, and that if you've managed to turn them into such a negative creatures then it should be taken as symptomatic of something being very wrong with how you're interacting with your customer base.
Stick with numbers dude, you've not got a clue about customer relations.
Except there is the problem that not all customers want the same thing. So who to you listen to then? Everyone seems to think their opinion is best and they know how to improve GW, yet fail to understand that they may be in the minority. The echo chamber here on Dakka is not representative of the larger gaming community.
Well, you see, that's not really the point. All feedback is good feedback. Some can be discarded as irrational or illogical, some can be discarded as counter to higher priorities, some of it will be genuinely useful. Additionally, if you keep hearing the same negative thing over and over, you've got a problem. It doesn't matter how impractical it might be, but if you are continually getting hammered for the same thing, then you need to address it. You don't have to be the consumer's bitch and do everything they say, but if you keep hearing "this is too expensive" them there are measures that you can take beyond simply cutting prices.
But you're right, that would all be too hard. Much better not to bother.
Now I'm no military expert, but don't you typically engage with those you are at war with?
You obviously have never been on the receiving end of one of their cease and desist orders. How DARE we promote their products via our fansite!
As far as I'm aware, I've never heard of them shutting down fansites or forums. Rather it is 3rd party retailers profiting off of their IP. Then again, I don't follow every move GW makes like most here seem to do, so I could be wrong.
Well, you see, that's not really the point. All feedback is good feedback. Some can be discarded as irrational or illogical, some can be discarded as counter to higher priorities, some of it will be genuinely useful. Additionally, if you keep hearing the same negative thing over and over, you've got a problem. It doesn't matter how impractical it might be, but if you are continually getting hammered for the same thing, then you need to address it. You don't have to be the consumer's bitch and do everything they say, but if you keep hearing "this is too expensive" them there are measures that you can take beyond simply cutting prices.
But you're right, that would all be too hard. Much better not to bother.
Go email BMW over and over telling them their cars are too expensive and see where that gets you.
I'm not saying the prices are reasonable, in fact I don't really buy much GW stuff these days, but complaining about it isn't going to change it. Not purchasing it might, if enough people stop.
The problem is that rather than maybe listen to feedback, even negative feedback, GW sticks their heads in the sand and pretends that the internet doesn't exist and everything is fine. Couple that with their idea that the world revolves around the GW Store (despite there not being many of them outside the UK) and you have a company that:
A) Thinks it knows best
B) Doesn't want criticism or feedback, just praise
C) Assumes that everyone will do what they say because they ignore alternatives.
Well, you see, that's not really the point. All feedback is good feedback. Some can be discarded as irrational or illogical, some can be discarded as counter to higher priorities, some of it will be genuinely useful. Additionally, if you keep hearing the same negative thing over and over, you've got a problem. It doesn't matter how impractical it might be, but if you are continually getting hammered for the same thing, then you need to address it. You don't have to be the consumer's bitch and do everything they say, but if you keep hearing "this is too expensive" them there are measures that you can take beyond simply cutting prices.
But you're right, that would all be too hard. Much better not to bother.
Go email BMW over and over telling them their cars are too expensive and see where that gets you.
I'm not saying the prices are reasonable, in fact I don't really buy much GW stuff these days, but complaining about it isn't going to change it. Not purchasing it might, if enough people stop.
Well, if it was just me emailing BMW, I doubt I'd get anywhere.
But if a lot of people emailed BMW telling them the same thing, and their revenue and profit were down year on year in double digit percentages, you can bet they'd take action.
Well, if it was just me emailing BMW, I doubt I'd get anywhere.
But if a lot of people emailed BMW telling them the same thing, and their revenue and profit were down year on year in double digit percentages, you can bet they'd take action.
The problem is, it is not a lot of people emailing GW or giving them feedback. It is a small percentage. Most people just do their thing. Hell, most of my friends that are active in GW don't care that much about what GW is doing as a business. They may not like the high prices, but they are pretty casual players so a few kits a year isn't seen as that big of a deal.
You have no more basis to assert that they only get emails from a small percentage than I do the contrary.
I can, however, cite GW's prior behaviour, which is to shut down any sort of line of communication with their customer base once things get difficult, rather than tackle whatever issue generates the negativity.
I can also make the reasonable assumption that, unlike your casual friends, the customers who care enough to get upset and complain are also quite possibly ones who spend, or would spend, more than a few kits worth a year.
Minutiae aside, it is simply a terrible idea to be a multimillion pound, global business operating in such a small market and have such an insular attitude and not engage in any real dialogue with you customers. Companies like EA, Microsoft, Apple etc must surely knock GW into a cocked hat in terms of the numbers of people and depths of revulsion they generate in a certain element of the population, yet they still have lines of communication open.
Well, if it was just me emailing BMW, I doubt I'd get anywhere.
But if a lot of people emailed BMW telling them the same thing, and their revenue and profit were down year on year in double digit percentages, you can bet they'd take action.
The problem is, it is not a lot of people emailing GW or giving them feedback. It is a small percentage. Most people just do their thing. Hell, most of my friends that are active in GW don't care that much about what GW is doing as a business. They may not like the high prices, but they are pretty casual players so a few kits a year isn't seen as that big of a deal.
So you state that the Dakka community isn't representative of the of the larger gaming community, but your much smaller gaming circle is? Riiiight...
If "they" read the forums... and "he" reads the forums... then there are a few ideas from his comments that should be encouraged, and he should push!
Bundling the rule book with a boxed set? <------ great idea!
Steam-like sales? <-------- another good idea!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hmm.... Went looking at the GW manager forum thread again and it looks like a lot of the comments from him are now gone and the original post now reads:
Now I'm no military expert, but don't you typically engage with those you are at war with?
You obviously have never been on the receiving end of one of their cease and desist orders. How DARE we promote their products via our fansite!
As far as I'm aware, I've never heard of them shutting down fansites or forums. Rather it is 3rd party retailers profiting off of their IP. Then again, I don't follow every move GW makes like most here seem to do, so I could be wrong.
...
Several years ago they issued C&D letters to several fan sites and/or forums, because of their names, if I remember correctly. For example I believe that one was called 40k Online.
azreal13 wrote: You have no more basis to assert that they only get emails from a small percentage than I do the contrary.
I can, however, cite GW's prior behaviour, which is to shut down any sort of line of communication with their customer base once things get difficult, rather than tackle whatever issue generates the negativity.
This to me is the most damning thing, that they just pretend that if they ignore the negative feedback, it will go away. That smacks of unbelievable arrogance, quite literally dismissing anything other than praise as being little more than noise that can safely be ignored.
Well, if it was just me emailing BMW, I doubt I'd get anywhere.
But if a lot of people emailed BMW telling them the same thing, and their revenue and profit were down year on year in double digit percentages, you can bet they'd take action.
The problem is, it is not a lot of people emailing GW or giving them feedback. It is a small percentage. Most people just do their thing. Hell, most of my friends that are active in GW don't care that much about what GW is doing as a business. They may not like the high prices, but they are pretty casual players so a few kits a year isn't seen as that big of a deal.
So you state that the Dakka community isn't representative of the of the larger gaming community, but your much smaller gaming circle is? Riiiight...
Oh, I was unaware every single member of Dakka had emailed GW to voice their concerns. Complaining here doesn't equal providing GW feedback surprisingly. Hell, even most people on Dakka aren't complaining here. So you have a small percentage of one forum, which could be argued is the most negative toward GW overall, complaining about GW's practices. The others are presumably happily discussing their army lists, posting project logs or completed works, writing articles, etc. In other words, they are happy with their hobby enough that they don't feel the need to complain about it.
It is fairly safe to say that Dakka is not representative of the larger community. Now using my friends is indeed anecdotal, but I was simply providing an opposite viewpoint, which I know does not go over well when it doesn't fit the mold of the disgruntled GW gamer represented here. I never claimed they represent the entire community, but I can say most people don't want to wallow in this negativity and just go places where they can discuss their interests without being labeled an fanboy or a white knight or whatever.
azreal13 wrote: You have no more basis to assert that they only get emails from a small percentage than I do the contrary.
I can, however, cite GW's prior behaviour, which is to shut down any sort of line of communication with their customer base once things get difficult, rather than tackle whatever issue generates the negativity.
I can also make the reasonable assumption that, unlike your casual friends, the customers who care enough to get upset and complain are also quite possibly ones who spend, or would spend, more than a few kits worth a year.
Minutiae aside, it is simply a terrible idea to be a multimillion pound, global business operating in such a small market and have such an insular attitude and not engage in any real dialogue with you customers. Companies like EA, Microsoft, Apple etc must surely knock GW into a cocked hat in terms of the numbers of people and depths of revulsion they generate in a certain element of the population, yet they still have lines of communication open.
Software and hardware companies are different kettles of fish, sure they get hate mail all the time, but they need a line of communication open because of how fast their world changes. How GW on the other hand, like it or not, sell a set of rules and a set of models, that's it. They don't have to hang around Internet forums and Facebook groups trying to read all the valid questions from all the "the game is unbalanced as I lost a game" "I don't like the price of this so I'm going to spend hours of my life moaning about it on the Internet instead of finding something in my price range" etc etc.
For every person that would say "hey this rule does not work for the community" there will be 10000 other moaning about costs. And that overshadows the few that would actually offer them constructive criticism. So it's no wonder they thought it pointless to pay staff to sit there reading through all the crud to fined the comments that are worth wile looking at.
The GW community is to blame for the loss of the social media. Forge world still have a FB group, because the people that comment there are commenting good feedback and asking questions relevant, still you get a few people moaning but not that many so the group still functions. GWFB group did not because it had the opposite. I'm just glad the local GW's still have FB groups open, the guys in the store are more than willing to answer questions if you have any.
Well, if it was just me emailing BMW, I doubt I'd get anywhere.
But if a lot of people emailed BMW telling them the same thing, and their revenue and profit were down year on year in double digit percentages, you can bet they'd take action.
The problem is, it is not a lot of people emailing GW or giving them feedback. It is a small percentage. Most people just do their thing. Hell, most of my friends that are active in GW don't care that much about what GW is doing as a business. They may not like the high prices, but they are pretty casual players so a few kits a year isn't seen as that big of a deal.
So you state that the Dakka community isn't representative of the of the larger gaming community, but your much smaller gaming circle is? Riiiight...
Oh, I was unaware every single member of Dakka had emailed GW to voice their concerns. Complaining here doesn't equal providing GW feedback surprisingly. Hell, even most people on Dakka aren't complaining here. So you have a small percentage of one forum, which could be argued is the most negative toward GW overall, complaining about GW's practices. The others are presumably happily discussing their army lists, posting project logs or completed works, writing articles, etc. In other words, they are happy with their hobby enough that they don't feel the need to complain about it.
It is fairly safe to say that Dakka is not representative of the larger community. Now using my friends is indeed anecdotal, but I was simply providing an opposite viewpoint, which I know does not go over well when it doesn't fit the mold of the disgruntled GW gamer represented here. I never claimed they represent the entire community, but I can say most people don't want to wallow in this negativity and just go places where they can discuss their interests without being labeled an fanboy or a white knight or whatever.
Seriously dude, you appear to be arguing that a company having an open dialogue with it's fans and using that as a basis to refine and improve it product and practices isn't worth pursuing, then compounding it by somehow trying to argue that a community the size of Dakka (which numbers in the tens of thousands) isn't in any way representative of the wider community?
As far as I'm aware, I've never heard of them shutting down fansites or forums. Rather it is 3rd party retailers profiting off of their IP. Then again, I don't follow every move GW makes like most here seem to do, so I could be wrong.
Then let me make you aware. Yes, they have. Dark Reign, a site I run now, received one for promoting FFG's 40kRPGs. They got back a note about something in the US called 'Fair Use' (since the main site hosts reviews and fan material). We then did not hear back from them after that. However, my understanding was they then told FFG (this was some time ago) to stop having their employees posting in our forum. Previously Ross Watson and several of the artists and playtesters were frequent posters.
Why? Well, assuming that new customer is picking up a boxed set or a battleforce, codex and rulebook then we're only talking about $10k or less a year in new customer sales. He claims his store has about $150k in revenue which would mean new customer sales are only about 6% of total. Even if it were double that (unlikely) then new customer sales aren't where they need to focus.
GW says "new customers are where its at" The manager buys into it because his livelihood is dependent on it. The reality, based on the numbers we've been told, is that GW is clueless.
You're assuming by new customers, GW is referring to first-time buyers rather than people generally new to GW games. To use Killkrazy's example, that could be anyone within the first 18 months of starting up. That probably is their bread and butter. However, if you take one out of context quote from this GW manager and apply it as an example of overall GW practices, I guess you can form an argument that supports what you already believed, which is that GW is clueless.
When I wrote that I figured that I was making an assumption that "New" was equivalent to "First Purchase". It might very well be a bad assumption, so the question then is to define what a "new" customer is vs a returning one. Is it a time frame as you suggested such as 18 months; is it a dollar amount; maybe it's a number of purchases. In most businesses a new customer is one that makes that first purchase. A returning one is one that makes the second (or so) purchase. The text from the manager didn't actually indicate what definition they use so I went with the standard.
Why the standard?
Well, it's impossible for them to track all purchases for a given individual. After all, a new person might buy that first boxed set in a GW store and, based on the customer conversation the store manager could create a "customer" record and mark them as new. Great. However that customer then goes to a different LHS or even online and buys other stuff. Heck, they could even go back to that original GW and still not be tracked correctly. I know I've bought a few things from a local GW (they were closest to me at the time) and generally paid cash - even for $100+ purchases. The guy never asked for my name and, interestingly, didn't appear to recognize me when I was in. Granted that's just one shop. Obviously his tracking data, if they do this, would be off but it's not necessarily reflective of other GW stores. What does matter though is that neither LHS nor online retailers report WHO bought what back to GW. And that means ALL of the tracking data is skewed.
Because those purchases can't be tied back to the original customer it's impossible for GW to say "New" is anything other than someone buying a box set from their store. But even that has problems. I picked up 3 copies of the 5th ed box and 2 of the DV box; and I am by no means an aberration in this. The first one I bought meant I was a new customer. The others were just filling out a couple armies. Which means they can't say every box set goes to only "New" customers. Quite frankly they can't define the percentage of box sets that go to "New" customers.
In numerous businesses the way to track a "new" vs "returning" customer is either through orders on the main web site, customer loyalty cards or by tracking credit card numbers. I'd hazard a guess that far more people buy from locations *other* than the GW website than do. They don't have anything like a "loyalty" program and given how often credit / debit cards seem to be reissued the latter is difficult. For GW who not only has retail outlets, a website AND sells through 3rd parties they have no reliable means of defining New vs Returning. Then again, we have one more complication. That person who buys part of an army from a friend then goes to a store to pick up a unit to help round out his army. How would you even define them? That first purchase means they are by any reasonable definition a new customer.. but they aren't new to the hobby.
So, because it's impossible to really define a new vs returning vs old and impossible to track them once they are in the hobby then the statement by GW (which we've heard from others) that "new" customers are their bread and butter can't be anything but clueless.
Well, you see, that's not really the point. All feedback is good feedback. Some can be discarded as irrational or illogical, some can be discarded as counter to higher priorities, some of it will be genuinely useful. Additionally, if you keep hearing the same negative thing over and over, you've got a problem. It doesn't matter how impractical it might be, but if you are continually getting hammered for the same thing, then you need to address it. You don't have to be the consumer's bitch and do everything they say, but if you keep hearing "this is too expensive" them there are measures that you can take beyond simply cutting prices.
But you're right, that would all be too hard. Much better not to bother.
All I have seen in my 23 years in the hobby is complaints that "this is too expensive". Back when we were getting 2 rhinos in a box for $25 I heard that. 13 years ago when the rhino was updated it ran for $25.. Now it's $37.50. So prices have jumped 50%. Sounds like a lot until you actually compare it to everything else we buy.
Back in 2000 Oil was around $25.. Now it's around $97
Gold was in the low 300s.. now it's around 1200..
Wheat 2466 now 5874
Corn 1834 now 4434
You know.. basic cost inputs. I remember shipping being a lot lower back then.. I remember base salaries were lower too. It's all relative.
Point being.. These complaints have been around for a LONG time and it hasn't impacted their bottom line. They probably got tired of the constant negativity on their forums and constantly having to defend themselves. It was a waste of money to fight the trolls. People that offer constructive criticism have the ears of the Reps. Don't think for a second that the reps don't listen and report back.
azreal13 wrote: You have no more basis to assert that they only get emails from a small percentage than I do the contrary.
I can, however, cite GW's prior behaviour, which is to shut down any sort of line of communication with their customer base once things get difficult, rather than tackle whatever issue generates the negativity.
I can also make the reasonable assumption that, unlike your casual friends, the customers who care enough to get upset and complain are also quite possibly ones who spend, or would spend, more than a few kits worth a year.
Minutiae aside, it is simply a terrible idea to be a multimillion pound, global business operating in such a small market and have such an insular attitude and not engage in any real dialogue with you customers. Companies like EA, Microsoft, Apple etc must surely knock GW into a cocked hat in terms of the numbers of people and depths of revulsion they generate in a certain element of the population, yet they still have lines of communication open.
Software and hardware companies are different kettles of fish, sure they get hate mail all the time, but they need a line of communication open because of how fast their world changes. How GW on the other hand, like it or not, sell a set of rules and a set of models, that's it. They don't have to hang around Internet forums and Facebook groups trying to read all the valid questions from all the "the game is unbalanced as I lost a game" "I don't like the price of this so I'm going to spend hours of my life moaning about it on the Internet instead of finding something in my price range" etc etc.
For every person that would say "hey this rule does not work for the community" there will be 10000 other moaning about costs. And that overshadows the few that would actually offer them constructive criticism. So it's no wonder they thought it pointless to pay staff to sit there reading through all the crud to fined the comments that are worth wile looking at.
The GW community is to blame for the loss of the social media. Forge world still have a FB group, because the people that comment there are commenting good feedback and asking questions relevant, still you get a few people moaning but not that many so the group still functions. GWFB group did not because it had the opposite. I'm just glad the local GW's still have FB groups open, the guys in the store are more than willing to answer questions if you have any.
Right, yeah, it's our fault. Just like it was our fault that Specialist Games were discontinued because we didn't buy enough. I mean, good lord, the battered wife analogy is trite, but seriously man, cmon?
FW still have a FB group because they haven't been bombarded by pissed off customers, yet GW closed theirs because of that reason. I wonder what conclusions we can draw between how the quasi independent sub division is run, how GW's main division is run, and those two sets of circumstances?
Here's a theory, its a little out there, but bear with me, what do you think would happen if GW started to communicate with its customers, acted like it cared, made changes where it could, explained where it was unable to why it couldn't, you know, generally acted like it gave a gak? I reckon within six months, all the huge volume of complaints you (probably correctly) anticipate would come their way would start to drop off, because I guarantee a huge percentage of the 'hate' sent GW's way is in fact just lent up frustration with no outlet, give that frustration a release valve, the problem won't go away, but it will drop to a very manageable level in very little time.
GW would clearly have to be prepared to ride out that initial storm, and they patently aren't willing to do so.
Seriously dude, you appear to be arguing that a company having an open dialogue with it's fans and using that as a basis to refine and improve it product and practices isn't worth pursuing, then compounding it by somehow trying to argue that a community the size of Dakka (which numbers in the tens of thousands) isn't in any way representative of the wider community?
I'd quit while you're behind.
No, I'm not arguing that any company should not have an open dialogue with their fans, I'm saying GW specifically. Assuming you are correct and Dakka does represent the wider community(I'll ignore the fact that is is the same few dozen people railing against GW in these types of threads) then they absolutely should not waste their time. How is some PR dude realistically supposed to address the perceived injustices against a customer base that hold onto grudges from nearly a decade ago? What can they possibly gain from communicating with a group of people that run off anyone remotely associated with the company, even when they aren't even close to being able to address those complaints. Seriously, if the community ever wanted a chance to interact, they would have to wipe the slate clean and start fresh, and too many people are way too bitter for that to happen.
But I will say you are right, I should quit while I'm ahead. It is pointless to discuss this here. I don't have time to argue with Dakka all day. . You know perceptions are skewed when someone like me who is no doubt perceived as a GW apologist, despite the fact I have quit 40k and sold all my GW stuff over the last year, moved on to another game, and only recently have bought a few things to play Kill Team. The difference is that I'm just not as emotionally invested, so the things that get complained about don't bother me as much.
Seriously dude, you appear to be arguing that a company having an open dialogue with it's fans and using that as a basis to refine and improve it product and practices isn't worth pursuing, then compounding it by somehow trying to argue that a community the size of Dakka (which numbers in the tens of thousands) isn't in any way representative of the wider community?
Just because Dakka is vocal doesn't mean it represents the community as a whole. There are plenty of other forums out there. In fact, a lot of gamers get turned off by the negativity on the forum and openly mock it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Starfarer wrote: But I will say you are right, I should quit while I'm ahead. It is pointless to discuss this here. I don't have time to argue with Dakka all day. . You know perceptions are skewed when someone like me who is no doubt perceived as a GW apologist, despite the fact I have quit 40k and sold all my GW stuff over the last year, moved on to another game, and only recently have bought a few things to play Kill Team. The difference is that I'm just not as emotionally invested, so the things that get complained about don't bother me as much.
Well put.. this is exactly why people leave dakka. There simply isn't any point in arguing when you get shouted down for having a difference of opinion.
Seriously dude, you appear to be arguing that a company having an open dialogue with it's fans and using that as a basis to refine and improve it product and practices isn't worth pursuing, then compounding it by somehow trying to argue that a community the size of Dakka (which numbers in the tens of thousands) isn't in any way representative of the wider community?
I'd quit while you're behind.
No, I'm not arguing that any company should not have an open dialogue with their fans, I'm saying GW specifically. Assuming you are correct and Dakka does represent the wider community(I'll ignore the fact that is is the same few dozen people railing against GW in these types of threads) then they absolutely should not waste their time. How is some PR dude realistically supposed to address the perceived injustices against a customer base that hold onto grudges from nearly a decade ago? What can they possibly gain from communicating with a group of people that run off anyone remotely associated with the company, even when they aren't even close to being able to address those complaints. Seriously, if the community ever wanted a chance to interact, they would have to wipe the slate clean and start fresh, and too many people are way too bitter for that to happen.
But I will say you are right, I should quit while I'm ahead. It is pointless to discuss this here. I don't have time to argue with Dakka all day. . You know perceptions are skewed when someone like me who is no doubt perceived as a GW apologist, despite the fact I have quit 40k and sold all my GW stuff over the last year, moved on to another game, and only recently have bought a few things to play Kill Team. The difference is that I'm just not as emotionally invested, so the things that get complained about don't bother me as much.
The implication being that I'm over invested, and care too much and that's somehow a bad thing? Nice attempt at a parting shot, but I'm very aware of my circumstances thank you, I'm currently too ill to be able to work, so have plenty of time in my hands to take an interest, coupled with plenty of experience in retails sales management, managing my own business and studying it at college, the bizarre actions that GW take that run so contrary to common practice and stuff I know works first hand, the sheer amount of head-grabbing, WTF moments that trickle out of Lenton on an almost daily basis leave me so baffled I like to discuss them on here to reassure myself I'm not going bat gak myself.
azreal13 wrote: You have no more basis to assert that they only get emails from a small percentage than I do the contrary.
I can, however, cite GW's prior behaviour, which is to shut down any sort of line of communication with their customer base once things get difficult, rather than tackle whatever issue generates the negativity.
I can also make the reasonable assumption that, unlike your casual friends, the customers who care enough to get upset and complain are also quite possibly ones who spend, or would spend, more than a few kits worth a year.
Minutiae aside, it is simply a terrible idea to be a multimillion pound, global business operating in such a small market and have such an insular attitude and not engage in any real dialogue with you customers. Companies like EA, Microsoft, Apple etc must surely knock GW into a cocked hat in terms of the numbers of people and depths of revulsion they generate in a certain element of the population, yet they still have lines of communication open.
Software and hardware companies are different kettles of fish, sure they get hate mail all the time, but they need a line of communication open because of how fast their world changes. How GW on the other hand, like it or not, sell a set of rules and a set of models, that's it. They don't have to hang around Internet forums and Facebook groups trying to read all the valid questions from all the "the game is unbalanced as I lost a game" "I don't like the price of this so I'm going to spend hours of my life moaning about it on the Internet instead of finding something in my price range" etc etc.
For every person that would say "hey this rule does not work for the community" there will be 10000 other moaning about costs. And that overshadows the few that would actually offer them constructive criticism. So it's no wonder they thought it pointless to pay staff to sit there reading through all the crud to fined the comments that are worth wile looking at.
The GW community is to blame for the loss of the social media. Forge world still have a FB group, because the people that comment there are commenting good feedback and asking questions relevant, still you get a few people moaning but not that many so the group still functions. GWFB group did not because it had the opposite. I'm just glad the local GW's still have FB groups open, the guys in the store are more than willing to answer questions if you have any.
Right, yeah, it's our fault. Just like it was our fault that Specialist Games were discontinued because we didn't buy enough. I mean, good lord, the battered wife analogy is trite, but seriously man, cmon?
FW still have a FB group because they haven't been bombarded by pissed off customers, yet GW closed theirs because of that reason. I wonder what conclusions we can draw between how the quasi independent sub division is run, how GW's main division is run, and those two sets of circumstances?
Here's a theory, its a little out there, but bear with me, what do you think would happen if GW started to communicate with its customers, acted like it cared, made changes where it could, explained where it was unable to why it couldn't, you know, generally acted like it gave a gak? I reckon within six months, all the huge volume of complaints you (probably correctly) anticipate would come their way would start to drop off, because I guarantee a huge percentage of the 'hate' sent GW's way is in fact just lent up frustration with no outlet, give that frustration a release valve, the problem won't go away, but it will drop to a very manageable level in very little time.
GW would clearly have to be prepared to ride out that initial storm, and they patently aren't willing to do so.
The FB group was already open they already tried it and closed it due to the moaning. I could understand your theory if it was not for the fact they already tried the social media route. And unless you want to buy a new rule book or codex everth month, just how much do you think they would be able to change stuff just by reading the very few comments that offer any kind of constructive feedback. They offer the option to phone them if you have any rule issues that havent been issued in an FAQ. And as for Specialist games being removed, yeah it sort of is our fault. Would you expect Nokia to keep storage space and tooling in their factorys and warehouses because a tiny percentage of people still want to buy 5110's?
Seriously dude, you appear to be arguing that a company having an open dialogue with it's fans and using that as a basis to refine and improve it product and practices isn't worth pursuing, then compounding it by somehow trying to argue that a community the size of Dakka (which numbers in the tens of thousands) isn't in any way representative of the wider community?
Just because Dakka is vocal doesn't mean it represents the community as a whole. There are plenty of other forums out there. In fact, a lot of gamers get turned off by the negativity on the forum and openly mock it.
You know what? People mock other forums here too, it's just like sports teams or anything else, its human nature.
Perhaps if we're lucky Lego will pass through and furnish us with some figures, I've seen him outline Dakka's traffic in the past, and unless the size of the wargaming market is substantially larger than anyone suspects, a solid percentage of that market passes by at some point or a other.
Of course, some of us stick around and engage more than others, while others move on to Whineseer or Bell Of Loser Stupids or whatever instead.
azreal13 wrote: You have no more basis to assert that they only get emails from a small percentage than I do the contrary.
I can, however, cite GW's prior behaviour, which is to shut down any sort of line of communication with their customer base once things get difficult, rather than tackle whatever issue generates the negativity.
I can also make the reasonable assumption that, unlike your casual friends, the customers who care enough to get upset and complain are also quite possibly ones who spend, or would spend, more than a few kits worth a year.
Minutiae aside, it is simply a terrible idea to be a multimillion pound, global business operating in such a small market and have such an insular attitude and not engage in any real dialogue with you customers. Companies like EA, Microsoft, Apple etc must surely knock GW into a cocked hat in terms of the numbers of people and depths of revulsion they generate in a certain element of the population, yet they still have lines of communication open.
Software and hardware companies are different kettles of fish, sure they get hate mail all the time, but they need a line of communication open because of how fast their world changes. How GW on the other hand, like it or not, sell a set of rules and a set of models, that's it. They don't have to hang around Internet forums and Facebook groups trying to read all the valid questions from all the "the game is unbalanced as I lost a game" "I don't like the price of this so I'm going to spend hours of my life moaning about it on the Internet instead of finding something in my price range" etc etc.
For every person that would say "hey this rule does not work for the community" there will be 10000 other moaning about costs. And that overshadows the few that would actually offer them constructive criticism. So it's no wonder they thought it pointless to pay staff to sit there reading through all the crud to fined the comments that are worth wile looking at.
The GW community is to blame for the loss of the social media. Forge world still have a FB group, because the people that comment there are commenting good feedback and asking questions relevant, still you get a few people moaning but not that many so the group still functions. GWFB group did not because it had the opposite. I'm just glad the local GW's still have FB groups open, the guys in the store are more than willing to answer questions if you have any.
Right, yeah, it's our fault. Just like it was our fault that Specialist Games were discontinued because we didn't buy enough. I mean, good lord, the battered wife analogy is trite, but seriously man, cmon?
FW still have a FB group because they haven't been bombarded by pissed off customers, yet GW closed theirs because of that reason. I wonder what conclusions we can draw between how the quasi independent sub division is run, how GW's main division is run, and those two sets of circumstances?
Here's a theory, its a little out there, but bear with me, what do you think would happen if GW started to communicate with its customers, acted like it cared, made changes where it could, explained where it was unable to why it couldn't, you know, generally acted like it gave a gak? I reckon within six months, all the huge volume of complaints you (probably correctly) anticipate would come their way would start to drop off, because I guarantee a huge percentage of the 'hate' sent GW's way is in fact just lent up frustration with no outlet, give that frustration a release valve, the problem won't go away, but it will drop to a very manageable level in very little time.
GW would clearly have to be prepared to ride out that initial storm, and they patently aren't willing to do so.
The FB group was already open they already tried it and closed it due to the moaning. I could understand your theory if it was not for the fact they already tried the social media route. And unless you want to buy a new rule book or codex everth month, just how much do you think they would be able to change stuff just by reading the very few comments that offer any kind of constructive feedback. They offer the option to phone them if you have any rule issues that havent been issued in an FAQ. And as for Specialist games being removed, yeah it sort of is our fault. Would you expect Nokia to keep storage space and tooling in their factorys and warehouses because a tiny percentage of people still want to buy 5110's?
Exactly, they closed it due to the moaning! They didn't look to the reasons for the moaning and try and address them (moaning isn't the disease, its a symptom, like you said, little or no moaning on FW's page, little or no moaning about FW here, except maybe the occasional "Whut, moar marines? Which is kind of fair comment.)
No, I wouldn't expect Nokia to keep manufacturing 5110s. Or 402s, 7110s, 8210s, 8310s, 3310s, 3330s or any of their old models. But they have, at least until a little over a year ago when I stopped selling them for a living, continually kept a model which you could clearly identify as a spiritual successor to that model in production to cater to that demand, so that's a pretty poor analogy.
The implication being that I'm over invested, and care too much and that's somehow a bad thing? Nice attempt at a parting shot, but I'm very aware of my circumstances thank you
I wasn't implying anything. How invested you are or aren't isn't any of my concern. I was simply stating I'm less invested, because their actions don't incite an emotional response from me. Lastly, I was just trying to offer some perspective. Rather than wallowing in negativity or trying to change things that clearly are out of my ability to change, I found a better use of my time. That includes frequenting Dakka much less often than I used to, because as stated elsewhere in this thread, there is no point getting shouted down for offering a different perspective.
The implication being that I'm over invested, and care too much and that's somehow a bad thing? Nice attempt at a parting shot, but I'm very aware of my circumstances thank you
I wasn't implying anything. How invested you are or aren't isn't any of my concern. I was simply stating I'm less invested, because their actions don't incite an emotional response from me. Lastly, I was just trying to offer some perspective. Rather than wallowing in negativity or trying to change things that clearly are out of my ability to change, I found a better use of my time. That includes frequenting Dakka much less often than I used to, because as stated elsewhere in this thread, there is no point getting shouted down for offering a different perspective.
I think stating how more or less invested you are to a person on the Internet that you've never met from another country is probably not a brilliant road to go down, suffice to say any emotional content you're attributing to my posts will largely be a projection on your part, I assure you I'm neither sat here raging, nor is Warhammer my life. Just an interesting exercise to keep my brain engaged when I have empty hours to fill in a day, and when it comes to this sort of topic, crosses over into an area I have specific experience of.
I'll also take issue with anyone who argues that there's no point in doing anything because nothing will change, nothing will change if you don't do anything is what I say.
I'll also take issue with anyone who argues that there's no point in doing anything because nothing will change, nothing will change if you don't do anything is what I say.
Complaining on Dakka is the same as doing nothing. I hope you realize that. Write a letter to GW if you like, but sitting here in an echo chamber agreeing with one another that GW is headed in the wrong direction is absolutely doing nothing.
Now I'm no military expert, but don't you typically engage with those you are at war with?
You obviously have never been on the receiving end of one of their cease and desist orders. How DARE we promote their products via our fansite!
As far as I'm aware, I've never heard of them shutting down fansites or forums. Rather it is 3rd party retailers profiting off of their IP. Then again, I don't follow every move GW makes like most here seem to do, so I could be wrong.
Turn Signals on a Land Raider, a web comic about minis. And there was this guy:
Originally they had to pull the lammasu head because GW doesn't understand what it actually made and what has been there since time immemorial. It appears to be back now though as a "sedu."
Well, they state they read every written letter they receive. At least Jervis does. They allegedly do not visit online forums nor seem to have any interest in receiving feedback from the community in that manner.
Well, they state they read every written letter they receive. At least Jervis does. They allegedly do not visit online forums nor seem to have any interest in receiving feedback from the community in that manner.
Well, they state they read every written letter they receive. At least Jervis does. They allegedly do not visit online forums nor seem to have any interest in receiving feedback from the community in that manner.
Of course, you could just try complaining harder.
Literally the first post ITT
I think someone just got, how you say, "owned?" It that the correct word?
Not really, he asked their permission to produce a hardback version of his online comic to make money to help to continue to fund it and they obviously refused, thus he closed it down.
Might. Not everyone sends messages by blowing up executives cars.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote: Not really, he asked their permission to produce a hardback version of his online comic to make money to help to continue to fund it and they obviously refused, thus he closed it down.
They also told him they would sue him if he tried to make money via advertising.
Turn Signals on a Land Raider, a web comic about minis.
Hold on, that was shut by GW?
TSOALR still exists (but no updates in nearly a year), but GW got pissy when he was going to make the webcomic as a printed book; so they shut him down.
Turn Signals on a Land Raider, a web comic about minis.
Hold on, that was shut by GW?
TSOALR still exists (but no updates in nearly a year), but GW got pissy when he was going to make the webcomic as a printed book; so they shut him down.
I think that is mischaracterizing the interaction a bit:
-Many things have contributed to the lack of a new comic for today but suffice it to say that you are witnessing the beginning of the end for Turn Signals. Since I am losing my job and health benefits, with no immediate prospects, I finally got off my duff last week and inquired about what I would have to do to get Turn Signals into a book for you all to purchase to possible alleviate some of my family’s financial stress. This is what I received back:
“So, in the case of TSOALR we’ve been very happy to let you put your web
comics up as a bit of fun. However, we can’t let you make money off of
what you’re doing because of the legal precedent it could set.
So, I’m afraid there’s just no way for us to allow you to sell TSOALR prints. I’m sorry to be the bearer of bad news. It’s not that we don’t
like what you do, it’s just that for various commercial reasons we’re
unable to grant you permission to make commercial gain from what is,
ultimately, selling GW-owned imagery.”
I had hoped for better, but had no evidence to believe that it would be. I have reached a point in this endeavour where the effort to put up the comic is far outpacing the return, at least monitarily. Losing one’s job can tend to put things in a different perspective and I realize that my efforts must now be directed more toward supporting my family than supporting my ‘bit of fun.’ As Webmaster Larry said the other day “that shadow was always there” and i knew it too. So for now the comic wll continue, I owe my advertisers that much at least, but it will be ending and some time soon. I’m hoping to continue with web comics, with a fully marketable property, and I’m hoping that when I find it some of you will come read it. Anyway, TSOALR will be back on Friday. See you then.
They also told him they would sue him if he tried to make money via advertising.
Aye that too.
Although to be fair to them, he was doing a fan comic based on their IP. No matter how much fun it was, those requests are fair enough from a legal stand point.
I think that is mischaracterizing the interaction a bit:
Spoiler:
-Many things have contributed to the lack of a new comic for today but suffice it to say that you are witnessing the beginning of the end for Turn Signals. Since I am losing my job and health benefits, with no immediate prospects, I finally got off my duff last week and inquired about what I would have to do to get Turn Signals into a book for you all to purchase to possible alleviate some of my family’s financial stress. This is what I received back:
“So, in the case of TSOALR we’ve been very happy to let you put your web
comics up as a bit of fun. However, we can’t let you make money off of
what you’re doing because of the legal precedent it could set.
So, I’m afraid there’s just no way for us to allow you to sell TSOALR prints. I’m sorry to be the bearer of bad news. It’s not that we don’t
like what you do, it’s just that for various commercial reasons we’re
unable to grant you permission to make commercial gain from what is,
ultimately, selling GW-owned imagery.”
I had hoped for better, but had no evidence to believe that it would be. I have reached a point in this endeavour where the effort to put up the comic is far outpacing the return, at least monitarily. Losing one’s job can tend to put things in a different perspective and I realize that my efforts must now be directed more toward supporting my family than supporting my ‘bit of fun.’ As Webmaster Larry said the other day “that shadow was always there” and i knew it too. So for now the comic wll continue, I owe my advertisers that much at least, but it will be ending and some time soon. I’m hoping to continue with web comics, with a fully marketable property, and I’m hoping that when I find it some of you will come read it. Anyway, TSOALR will be back on Friday. See you then.
Cut us some slack, I was trying to remember something that happened about 4 years ago. Couldn't find the exact details on it so I had to go from memory.
I'll save that bit above, in case it comes up again.
Of course, the TSOALR excuse is a bit of BS on GWs part. Them granting him a license to use their IP would not set any legal precedent against them. They don't even have to charge him for it.
Though they also have no obligation to let him use their IP.
Exactly, they closed it due to the moaning! They didn't look to the reasons for the moaning and try and address them (moaning isn't the disease, its a symptom, like you said, little or no moaning on FW's page, little or no moaning about FW here, except maybe the occasional "Whut, moar marines? Which is kind of fair comment.)
The "moaning" that was going on at the time of the closure had nothing to do with the products though. It was at the time of the whole "Spots the Space Marine" debacle.
They also told him they would sue him if he tried to make money via advertising.
Aye that too.
Although to be fair to them, he was doing a fan comic based on their IP. No matter how much fun it was, those requests are fair enough from a legal stand point.
Parody.
In the US we call that an essential liberty. And GW could have strengthened its marks by licensing TSOLR.
It reads as though he's fresh out of a briefing. Faeit212 had its own manager QnA in the summer that was far more open and honest about thoughts feelings etc, though most of the questions if I recall we're about releases- which we all know managers don't know about
Exactly, they closed it due to the moaning! They didn't look to the reasons for the moaning and try and address them (moaning isn't the disease, its a symptom, like you said, little or no moaning on FW's page, little or no moaning about FW here, except maybe the occasional "Whut, moar marines? Which is kind of fair comment.)
The "moaning" that was going on at the time of the closure had nothing to do with the products though. It was at the time of the whole "Spots the Space Marine" debacle.
I'm assuming you have something to follow that up with, as what you've written so far is a null point.
I've got to admit, that pay is more than I expected it to be. That's genuinely more than I imagine most other 1 man store owners would make. I was expecting maybe 28k at absolute most. - Truth be told, even that seems high.
I think that is mischaracterizing the interaction a bit:
Spoiler:
-Many things have contributed to the lack of a new comic for today but suffice it to say that you are witnessing the beginning of the end for Turn Signals. Since I am losing my job and health benefits, with no immediate prospects, I finally got off my duff last week and inquired about what I would have to do to get Turn Signals into a book for you all to purchase to possible alleviate some of my family’s financial stress. This is what I received back:
“So, in the case of TSOALR we’ve been very happy to let you put your web
comics up as a bit of fun. However, we can’t let you make money off of
what you’re doing because of the legal precedent it could set.
So, I’m afraid there’s just no way for us to allow you to sell TSOALR prints. I’m sorry to be the bearer of bad news. It’s not that we don’t
like what you do, it’s just that for various commercial reasons we’re
unable to grant you permission to make commercial gain from what is,
ultimately, selling GW-owned imagery.”
I had hoped for better, but had no evidence to believe that it would be. I have reached a point in this endeavour where the effort to put up the comic is far outpacing the return, at least monitarily. Losing one’s job can tend to put things in a different perspective and I realize that my efforts must now be directed more toward supporting my family than supporting my ‘bit of fun.’ As Webmaster Larry said the other day “that shadow was always there” and i knew it too. So for now the comic wll continue, I owe my advertisers that much at least, but it will be ending and some time soon. I’m hoping to continue with web comics, with a fully marketable property, and I’m hoping that when I find it some of you will come read it. Anyway, TSOALR will be back on Friday. See you then.
Cut us some slack, I was trying to remember something that happened about 4 years ago. Couldn't find the exact details on it so I had to go from memory.
I'll save that bit above, in case it comes up again.
You might be thinking of Golden Throne, I think that one received a C&D letter (or whatever) when the writer started making jokes about drugs near GW imagery?
I think that is mischaracterizing the interaction a bit:
Spoiler:
-Many things have contributed to the lack of a new comic for today but suffice it to say that you are witnessing the beginning of the end for Turn Signals. Since I am losing my job and health benefits, with no immediate prospects, I finally got off my duff last week and inquired about what I would have to do to get Turn Signals into a book for you all to purchase to possible alleviate some of my family’s financial stress. This is what I received back:
“So, in the case of TSOALR we’ve been very happy to let you put your web
comics up as a bit of fun. However, we can’t let you make money off of
what you’re doing because of the legal precedent it could set.
So, I’m afraid there’s just no way for us to allow you to sell TSOALR prints. I’m sorry to be the bearer of bad news. It’s not that we don’t
like what you do, it’s just that for various commercial reasons we’re
unable to grant you permission to make commercial gain from what is,
ultimately, selling GW-owned imagery.”
I had hoped for better, but had no evidence to believe that it would be. I have reached a point in this endeavour where the effort to put up the comic is far outpacing the return, at least monitarily. Losing one’s job can tend to put things in a different perspective and I realize that my efforts must now be directed more toward supporting my family than supporting my ‘bit of fun.’ As Webmaster Larry said the other day “that shadow was always there” and i knew it too. So for now the comic wll continue, I owe my advertisers that much at least, but it will be ending and some time soon. I’m hoping to continue with web comics, with a fully marketable property, and I’m hoping that when I find it some of you will come read it. Anyway, TSOALR will be back on Friday. See you then.
Cut us some slack, I was trying to remember something that happened about 4 years ago. Couldn't find the exact details on it so I had to go from memory.
I'll save that bit above, in case it comes up again.
You might be thinking of Golden Throne, I think that one received a C&D letter (or whatever) when the writer started making jokes about drugs near GW imagery?
GW send out so many C&Ds these days it's hard to keep track...
Compel wrote: I've got to admit, that pay is more than I expected it to be. That's genuinely more than I imagine most other 1 man store owners would make. I was expecting maybe 28k at absolute most. - Truth be told, even that seems high.
Yes but what country? .
here in NZ thats only $15.80 per hour (on a 40hour week) (and $17.60 on a 36hour week... GW lowerhutt only open 36hours a week)and our minimum wage is $13.75..
So I'd love to know what country this "guy" comes from... maybe her/she should have converted the pay to different currency's????
I'd work for that (36 hour week)... I'm a poor student.. love the hobby ..
as far as prices go... when i started playing, codex's were $40.. now they are $105*********************.. box of space marines $40 upto $75***********
. mega nobs $19 upto $46*************************.
most prices have doubled... wages haven't.. i now looking at finding someone to ship stuff from oversea's UK? (get 20% off and ship here= about 20% less what we pay here)
And they (GW) wonder why the auckland shop closed/closing down...
I stopped by the Wal-Mart at Wujiaochang in Shanghai, took the manager out for lunch, and asked him all about how Wal-Mart operates, its corporate strategy, and based on his store's sales numbers I now know exactly what Wal-Mart sells and to whom. As it turns out, Wal-Mart does not sell any guns and ammo, don't sell any music, but do sell pets, octopuses, and quite a lot of study materials. The manager knows! He's in the biz!
Dynamix wrote: For GW's sake I hope it was just a throw-away line from the Chairmans report from some time ago and not an attitude central to company policy
Edit : too many its
Sadly, that was from an annual report, it is essentially an open letter from Kirby to the shareholders. It has been postulated in the past that he may deliberately use ideas and language to deliberately get a rise out of the proletariat, but even that theory speaks volumes.
I think we can safely apply the same sort of logic that psychiatrists use when they say "there are no jokes" in that, however it is intended, statements like this are coming from somewhere, and that doesn't strike me as a particularly respectful place.
Thud wrote: Ah, yes. The all-knowing guy in a shop.
I stopped by the Wal-Mart at Wujiaochang in Shanghai, took the manager out for lunch, and asked him all about how Wal-Mart operates, its corporate strategy, and based on his store's sales numbers I now know exactly what Wal-Mart sells and to whom. As it turns out, Wal-Mart does not sell any guns and ammo, don't sell any music, but do sell pets, octopuses, and quite a lot of study materials. The manager knows! He's in the biz!
Thud wrote: Ah, yes. The all-knowing guy in a shop.
I stopped by the Wal-Mart at Wujiaochang in Shanghai, took the manager out for lunch, and asked him all about how Wal-Mart operates, its corporate strategy, and based on his store's sales numbers I now know exactly what Wal-Mart sells and to whom. As it turns out, Wal-Mart does not sell any guns and ammo, don't sell any music, but do sell pets, octopuses, and quite a lot of study materials. The manager knows! He's in the biz!
I suspect the key point you need to take away re:guns and ammo, is that he specifically mentions the Shanghai branch.
The point being that the manager of one store on one part of the planet won't really be in possession of enough facts to answer these sorts of questions when the company he works for has stores located in very different economic and cultural landscapes.
I suspect that guns and ammo are very strictly controlled in China, not sure, but call it a hunch.
Thud wrote: Ah, yes. The all-knowing guy in a shop.
I stopped by the Wal-Mart at Wujiaochang in Shanghai, took the manager out for lunch, and asked him all about how Wal-Mart operates, its corporate strategy, and based on his store's sales numbers I now know exactly what Wal-Mart sells and to whom. As it turns out, Wal-Mart does not sell any guns and ammo, don't sell any music, but do sell pets, octopuses, and quite a lot of study materials. The manager knows! He's in the biz!
That is more guns than I (in NZ) have seen in person in my life... and its in a supermarket. No wonder people get shot all the time in the US... thats scary.
azreal13 wrote: I suspect the key point you need to take away re:guns and ammo, is that he specifically mentions the Shanghai branch.
The point being that the manager of one store on one part of the planet won't really be in possession of enough facts to answer these sorts of questions when the company he works for has stores located in very different economic and cultural landscapes.
azreal13 wrote: I suspect the key point you need to take away re:guns and ammo, is that he specifically mentions the Shanghai branch.
The point being that the manager of one store on one part of the planet won't really be in possession of enough facts to answer these sorts of questions when the company he works for has stores located in very different economic and cultural landscapes.
Wow....thanks for explaining
You saw the conversation that prompted that post right? I wasn't being patronising, it genuinely seemed to have gone over some chaps heads.
That is more guns than I (in NZ) have seen in person in my life... and its in a supermarket. No wonder people get shot all the time in the US... thats scary.
I have more guns than that in the closet under the stairs. People in other countries automatically assume that all these guns get used all the time, rather then gather dust most of the time.
That is more guns than I (in NZ) have seen in person in my life... and its in a supermarket. No wonder people get shot all the time in the US... thats scary.
I have more guns than that in the closet under the stairs. People in other countries automatically assume that all these guns get used all the time, rather then gather dust most of the time.
Yea true, its hard to imagine for most people here. An Ak-47 is like mega exciting for us gunless peoples to see (and it can only be fired on semi auto...)
I'm not a gun person and I don't own any, but I'm pretty sure that a fully automatic weapon, or even one with a burst-fire option, is illegal in the vast majority of jurisdictions in the US.
RatBot wrote: I'm not a gun person and I don't own any, but I'm pretty sure that a fully automatic weapon, or even one with a burst-fire option, is illegal in the vast majority of jurisdictions in the US.
Are there caliber limitations, here the biggest is .308 (i think) which is only allowed to be bolt action.
Man, GW is such a bullsh... money grubbing... greedy, over the top, apathetic money whor....
Grrr!
New players accept the prices for what they are? What a crock of bull! Maybe if by "new players" he means the kid whose Mom is too busy texting her boyfriend to notice she just plunked down almost a full fin for only 5 toys, then yeah, statement true.
I went down to a GW shop nearby once, planned it for weeks because oh hey, yeah that's right no one wants to carry GW anymore so there is literally 3 GW shops in BC. I made my father in law drive around for two hours to find the shop, I walked in with my fiance and walked right back out 5 seconds later, empty handed. And I wanted some new toys sooo bad that day, but hey guess what? I can't justify spending $98.00 on a Land Raider! If you can, send me a bloody land raider or two because obviously you're so filthy stinking rich you can afford it.
I'm not kidding, someone send me a free land raider! NOW!
You know, I work my butt off, just like the rest of us and all I ask is that when it comes time to spend my hard earned money there are no barrels involved and no bending at the waist. Is that so much to ask?
Yeah, okay sure, I could spend my money on other, similar high quality games, like Firestorm Armada or Flames of War, but who am I gonna play with? No one. That's the facts. I could spend months waiting for a game, I could spend even more money buying two armies in the hopes that I can convince someone to play, but in the end it's like this: There is only Warhammer in the 21st Century. And goddamn you better be able to afford it, you better not complain and you damn well better keep spending your money or GW will take it's nose and turn it straight up at you!
And yet... I love my 40k... it's a cruel trap. I feel like I did when I was just getting into hard drugs! Damn, you love it so much, but it's killing your wallet and eating your soul! I can sit down in my basement, escape from life for a few hours and paint and sculpt and do all sorts of cutting and gluing and be genuinely happy. Then I turn on my computer to drool over what I hope I'll be able to afford next and it just kills me every time I look, because the prices are so far beyond my means!
I mean, hell. I could afford a $100 tank, and yeah I could probably even afford a Titan or something, but will I ever have sex with my wife again? Will I be able to make my rent? No and no.
So go ahead GW, keep that head buried firmly in the sand. Keep raising your prices and keep churning out lackluster books and products. I'll be down here hiding in the corner, waiting for good deals on my toys.
RatBot wrote: I'm not a gun person and I don't own any, but I'm pretty sure that a fully automatic weapon, or even one with a burst-fire option, is illegal in the vast majority of jurisdictions in the US.
Exactly, they closed it due to the moaning! They didn't look to the reasons for the moaning and try and address them (moaning isn't the disease, its a symptom, like you said, little or no moaning on FW's page, little or no moaning about FW here, except maybe the occasional "Whut, moar marines? Which is kind of fair comment.)
The "moaning" that was going on at the time of the closure had nothing to do with the products though. It was at the time of the whole "Spots the Space Marine" debacle.
I'm assuming you have something to follow that up with, as what you've written so far is a null point.
I think the point he was trying to make is that the GW Facebook page wasn't closed down as a result of people moaning about their product. It was closed down because GW sent a takedown notice over someone using the name 'Space Marine' on a completely unrelated topic, and people posted their opinions of that. In volume.
Rather than address the fact that their legal department had been a little over-zealous, they pulled the Facebook page.
azreal13 wrote: Sadly, that was from an annual report, it is essentially an open letter from Kirby to the shareholders. It has been postulated in the past that he may deliberately use ideas and language to deliberately get a rise out of the proletariat, but even that theory speaks volumes.
@ $33K a year is US starting or fresh store salary. There is also quite a nice benefits package attached. Medical, Eye/Dental/ 401K, stock options, profit share and life insurance. As well as 2 weeks a year vacation and 1 week of sick leave. Bonus weeks are added as you break longevity levels with the company.
Store sales volume over the previous years sales dictates the advance in pay, typically in $2k increments. Quarterly bonus for sales above the previous years sales for the same sales quarter are also offered to store at a rate of 20%. So make $10K more in the first quarter than you did last year in the first quarter you get a $2k check. Odds are if you are making that kind of cash you will see a pay rise at the end of the fiscal year. The reverse is also true, you dip in sales down into a lower pay scale because of lower sales you take a pay cut. Simple, you get paid with in what your shop makes, in a one man shop you are %100 responsible for figuring out how to get your money.
There is a minimum expected sales goal for every store, blanket wise its $150K a year bare bones, but there is no official policy beyond that expectation that I am aware of. There was a previous attempt to let the managers quote their own goals and then the support teams were there to "hold them to account" for what the established goals were. That didn't work and its no longer in practice. Some new store managers have had rather aggressive goals set for them and thus they are no longer with the company. All too often its not the goals that are set, but the simple fact that the job is not what they thought it was. Some guys have hard starts and the shop barely did $100K its first year others have had banner starts in primed area and did @ $250 their first year. There are older shops out there doing $350-450K a year.
One man stores are demanding, rigid and more challenging than they are trained for some of the time. They require salesmanship, creative thinking and diligence, not just a love of the hobby. Both is better but if you can sell, then it really does not matter what the product is. Yes, the more you know about your product the better but some one who is a big ol fan boy but not a salesmen will not last, it happens all the time. Probably why the majority of US managers have @2 years or less with the company.
Lets face it if your going to a GW shop to start with you already want what is there. So the stage is set, can they get you what you want but sell you just enough extra to make their numbers with out making you feel like they are fleecing you. Its a very delicate balancing act, and certainly not one specific to Games Workshop.
Exactly, they closed it due to the moaning! They didn't look to the reasons for the moaning and try and address them (moaning isn't the disease, its a symptom, like you said, little or no moaning on FW's page, little or no moaning about FW here, except maybe the occasional "Whut, moar marines? Which is kind of fair comment.)
The "moaning" that was going on at the time of the closure had nothing to do with the products though. It was at the time of the whole "Spots the Space Marine" debacle.
I'm assuming you have something to follow that up with, as what you've written so far is a null point.
I think the point he was trying to make is that the GW Facebook page wasn't closed down as a result of people moaning about their product. It was closed down because GW sent a takedown notice over someone using the name 'Space Marine' on a completely unrelated topic, and people posted their opinions of that. In volume.
Rather than address the fact that their legal department had been a little over-zealous, they pulled the Facebook page.
Ya, I got that. It just didn't do anything to counter the point I made which is they'd rather turtle up than deal with anything negative, irrespective of the source.
I can only speak to the US sales chain for starters. You are allocated stock based on your sales volume, and can at will call and have you levels changed provided you can back up your requests. They work quite well with you on that so no issue there. Not every thing will be as you wish it mind you but show me a company that does that? Last year, managers of one mans were placed back on salary and told they could do what they liked in way of hours with in reason and that they must be open at least 35 hours a week. Some stores are now closed on Sundays and open tue-sat. Some went to later opens and later close times. I can't sear to any who have opened 6 days a week and I am pretty sure they would straight veto any one many trying to be open 7. But managers are pretty free to set what ever hours they like as long as it makes business sense.
While I can see that reaction, it really depends on the community you as a manger create. And plainly the one man store can be a grind. Imagine NEVER having a weekend off unless you take leave for it then only if you can find an on call person to cover your shop, that or close it outright and take the sales hit. Would you be surprised to know that at a shop making @$200K a year, Sundays were the least profitable sales day consistently? If that is the shop in question does being closed on a Sunday hurt the business?
Some people on warseer seem to b e doubting if he was a manager after all. Honestly after reading the responses he's either a manager or knows how to imitate one perfectly.
I don't have to imagine it. I worked in a games store. I did wednesday to Friday nights, and weekends. It sucked, but it was the job.
Would you be surprised to know that at a shop making @$200K a year, Sundays were the least profitable sales day consistently? If that is the shop in question does being closed on a Sunday hurt the business?
I would believe it, yes. But for those who work, weekdays and saturdays are often out of the question, so being closed on sundays can simply mean that you don't get those sales at all. Being the least profitable day doesn't mean it makes any sense to not be open.
I don't quite get why people find this interview so fascinating? It seems like basic level chit chat from a guy who's not much beyond a register ringer and there's nothing really earth moving. I talked about more in depth stuff with our bunker manager at least once a week sometimes more so maybe I'm just more in tune with stuff (or more jaded). Maybe some people don't have a GW store in their area, or can't approach staff the same way?
It would be much more interesting to hear insights form someone higher up who has some impact in the decision making process or other aspects that the average employee isn't privy to. This stuff is just pretty standard fare for anyone talking about a retail job GW or otherwise. meh
I think it's because Taco Bell posted it as if it were some great insight into the inner workings of the GW machine when if we really wanted to look at the inner workings of GW all we'd have to do is look at you, Paulson, a guy who got (wrongly) sued for something he had nothing to do with. If that doesn't give us insight about GW then I don't know what does.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I think it's because Taco Bell posted it as if it were some great insight into the inner workings of the GW machine when if we really wanted to look at the inner workings of GW all we'd have to do is look at you, Paulson, a guy who got (wrongly) sued for something he had nothing to do with. If that doesn't give us insight about GW then I don't know what does.
QFT...
(Taco Bell, hmmm? I've never heard BOLS called that before... apt.)
H.B.M.C. wrote: I think it's because Taco Bell posted it as if it were some great insight into the inner workings of the GW machine when if we really wanted to look at the inner workings of GW all we'd have to do is look at you, Paulson, a guy who got (wrongly) sued for something he had nothing to do with. If that doesn't give us insight about GW then I don't know what does.
I think my unfortunate experiences give insight into the bully tactics, but that's a separate arm from the rest of the company. GW I see a three headed beast: studio, the stockiest, and legal/management. One of which is trying to assert itself over the other two, even if it means killing the whole.
2 of the 3 branches are pretty reasonable and likeable folk, I've been fortunate to meet a lot of people who worked as managers and district level guys and even a few that were in Memphis. They were all great guys that I think they are a huge part of how GW got to be the industry giant that it is. They were really solid employees who were connected with the community and passionate about what they did. Problem is they are gone at this point and most of their like minded peers have been driven out of the company because legal & management is strangling things from within. Draconian control policies stifle creativity and passion which are the lifeblood of a gaming company. It's sad because as much as I dislike the legal end of GW there were plenty of really great people in the company but that pool is drying up rapidly.
paulson games wrote: I don't quite get why people find this interview so fascinating? It seems like basic level chit chat from a guy who's not much beyond a register ringer and there's nothing really earth moving. I talked about more in depth stuff with our bunker manager at least once a week sometimes more so maybe I'm just more in tune with stuff (or more jaded). Maybe some people don't have a GW store in their area, or can't approach staff the same way?
It would be much more interesting to hear insights form someone higher up who has some impact in the decision making process or other aspects that the average employee isn't privy to. This stuff is just pretty standard fare for anyone talking about a retail job GW or otherwise. meh
GW has such little communication with its customer base (in fact, it has none, down to disabling comments on their unlisted youtube channel) that even this seems interesting.
The dude is just a store manager? So in other words his comments are completely meaningless?
I honestly don't believe the register jockeys are any more clued in to the inner workings of GW than any of us here. They might get to look at some of the books a few days before the rest of us, but I'd say that's about it.
GW has such little communication with its customer base (in fact, it has none, down to disabling comments on their unlisted youtube channel) that even this seems interesting.
Quite possible, I hadn't considered GW's info black outs but that'd certainly make sense. People are so starved for any official interaction they could go gaga over even the most basic posts. GW News Flash! local store manager ate sandwich while on lunch, stay tuned for more on our gripping report!
GW has such little communication with its customer base (in fact, it has none, down to disabling comments on their unlisted youtube channel) that even this seems interesting.
Quite possible, I hadn't considered GW's info black outs but that'd certainly make sense. People are so starved for any official interaction they could go gaga over even the most basic posts. GW News Flash! local store manager ate sandwich while on lunch, stay tuned for more on our gripping report!
In the US we call that an essential liberty. And GW could have strengthened its marks by licensing TSOLR.
Oh don't get me wrong, thats how I'd have handled it, seems they could have both made a bit of money from that but GW doesn't seem to work that way, not unless you are make apps for moble phones at least.
Captain Vyper wrote: @ $33K a year is US starting or fresh store salary. There is also quite a nice benefits package attached. Medical, Eye/Dental/ 401K, stock options, profit share and life insurance. As well as 2 weeks a year vacation and 1 week of sick leave. Bonus weeks are added as you break longevity levels with the company.
Oh, well, uh, if it was in dollars I take back everything I said. Around £20,000 is pretty much exactly what I would have expected GW staff to get paid.
Yeah, I think I'll stick with my own career (Not that there was any doubt. - I have played 1 40k game in the last 6 months!)
In the US we call that an essential liberty. And GW could have strengthened its marks by licensing TSOLR.
Oh don't get me wrong, thats how I'd have handled it, seems they could have both made a bit of money from that but GW doesn't seem to work that way, not unless you are make apps for moble phones at least.
Given GW's legal problems with the Chapter House case, I have the impression their legal team was not fully up to speed with the actual status of the law and their own IP rights, so perhaps they just gave a knee jerk response of "NO" to TSOALR.
Captain Vyper wrote: While I can see that reaction, it really depends on the community you as a manger create. And plainly the one man store can be a grind. Imagine NEVER having a weekend off unless you take leave for it then only if you can find an on call person to cover your shop, that or close it outright and take the sales hit. Would you be surprised to know that at a shop making @$200K a year, Sundays were the least profitable sales day consistently? If that is the shop in question does being closed on a Sunday hurt the business?
Does that really apply to hobby stores aimed at teenagers (who have school mon-friday) and young adults (who probably work week days)?
Unless a lot of their custom are people who've got weekend jobs as well and can't come in on a saturday/sunday, but I'd have thought closing Sundays would cost them more custom than closing Tuesdays, especially in terms of walk-ins.
In the UK, since Sunday shop opening became the norm, lots of people go to shopping centres and so on for a bit of a general wander around, and might be attracted to pop into a GW.
However the selling hours are restricted by law to 11 until 4, so you need a higher footfall to compensate for the shorter day.
Perhaps other countries have different laws and customs.
The selling hours are only restricted in some conditions I believe, something to do with the size of the store maybe, but it's not a blanket ban (the mrs's shop is open longer on Sundays).
this gw store operator feels that ~30k/year + benefits is substantial.
the gw employee has been subjugated by upper management to the degree that he - even anonomously - is unwilling to criticize upper management/attitudes/policies/decisions.
This is one of those threads that makes you feel dirty for supporting gw. brings to mind the saying 'don't look too close, you might not like what you see'
Herzlos wrote: The selling hours are only restricted in some conditions I believe, something to do with the size of the store maybe, but it's not a blanket ban (the mrs's shop is open longer on Sundays).
Correct, there is a minimum square footage before you come under Sunday Trading Laws, which is why the corner shop in your street can still stay open all day, but the superstores can only open for 6 hours. (Typically 10-4)
A GW Store Manager wrote:GWs policy towards online interaction is that it's a waste of time...
Well. That's problem number 1 right there.
Well, I can understand how a company with a vocal "fanbase" online could adopt that attitude. Have you ever visited the forums for a game like WoW? It's a cesspool, and although Blizzard try very hard to reach out to the people on there it is obvious that it is a) never enough, b) usually falling on deaf ears and c) tends to snowball out of control very quickly with three line comments being analysed in more depth than Othello. And that's an online gaming company's website. We're dealing with a tabletop gaming company.
A GW Store Manager wrote:GWs policy towards online interaction is that it's a waste of time...
Well. That's problem number 1 right there.
Well, I can understand how a company with a vocal "fanbase" online could adopt that attitude. Have you ever visited the forums for a game like WoW? It's a cesspool, and although Blizzard try very hard to reach out to the people on there it is obvious that it is a) never enough, b) usually falling on deaf ears and c) tends to snowball out of control very quickly with three line comments being analysed in more depth than Othello. And that's an online gaming company's website. We're dealing with a tabletop gaming company.
Once again, I'll direct you to the fact that in spite of it being a fairly thankless task, Blizzard continue to try. I also shudder to think how warm and fluffy the most anti-GW thread on the most anti-GW board looks compared to anything happening on a WoW forum, I've never played myself, but the stories from friends who have spent more time on WoW than at work at some points in their lives, makes my mind boggle.
dereksatkinson wrote: You people do realize that if they paid their cashiers more we'd be paying more for our plastic crack right?
Quite so, which is why I've been suggesting for some time that the stores are the millstone around the company's neck and that getting rid of them, allowing indy stores to establish in their absence, is a great way to reduce overheads (staffing, rent, utility bills, insurances and business rates/local taxes) and allow for more competitive pricing of the product, but the company has established a model of no advertizing or promotion for recruitment other than walking into the store on the highstreet or mall, which was all well and good when they paid for premium locations and were well staffed with plenty of room for gaming and other hobby activities, but somewhat flawed now they are tiny booths of stock that are increasingly closed and without hobby activities of any kind.
Back to the topic, I'll echo what was said here earlier, the average store employee will know less than any of the more active online hobbyists, the mushroom culture is strong in this one.
Eh. My local GW store is booming. They sell tons of models and have multiple games going every day they are open. weekends there is often a wait to get on a table. its pretty impressive considering there are 3 other very popular flgs in the valley. the GW store is in an affluent area of a huge metropolis though, lots of disposable income in that area of town.
Xyptc wrote: And that's an online gaming company's website. We're dealing with a tabletop gaming company.
But that's the thing... Every other tabletop gaming company seems to be able to maintain an online presence without all the silliness. It's just GW that finds it all too hard.
At which point, the logical conclusion has to be that this is down to something that GW are doing wrong, rather than an inherent problem with the internet.
sand.zzz wrote: Eh. My local GW store is booming. They sell tons of models and have multiple games going every day they are open. weekends there is often a wait to get on a table. its pretty impressive considering there are 3 other very popular flgs in the valley. the GW store is in an affluent area of a huge metropolis though, lots of disposable income in that area of town.
The metro-Atlanta area has had 3-4 stores in the past, and all of them have dried up and gone away. A new one popped up a couple of years ago in a Kroger shopping center (that's a grocery store) that you can't even see from the roadway. The store has two tables.
Xyptc wrote: And that's an online gaming company's website. We're dealing with a tabletop gaming company.
But that's the thing... Every other tabletop gaming company seems to be able to maintain an online presence without all the silliness. It's just GW that finds it all too hard.
At which point, the logical conclusion has to be that this is down to something that GW are doing wrong, rather than an inherent problem with the internet.
Stop that. Logic has zero place in this discussion.
The idea that a games store with product aimed at late teens and young adults would be closed on the weeked boggles my mind...
Most people want the weekend of, one person store cant have that. Compromise between profit and retaining your employee.
That's a problem that was solved decades ago. Weekend staff. Hire a part timer to work Saturday/Sunday and then you're sorted. It also takes care of the holiday/sick day thing.
What's the pay like for running a one-man? Do you find your store often ends up closed due to unforeseen circumstances?
33,000 a year with full benefits and on salary. The only time my store has been closed due to unforseen circumstances is when my grandfather died and I had to fly out the same day. Usually If I'm sick or planning something I have an on-call manager that will fill in. I'm also good about letting people know exactly when it will happen.
If he is a real GW store manager this is how they track(ed) him down and sent him back to the re-education camp.
Xyptc wrote: And that's an online gaming company's website. We're dealing with a tabletop gaming company.
But that's the thing... Every other tabletop gaming company seems to be able to maintain an online presence without all the silliness. It's just GW that finds it all too hard.
At which point, the logical conclusion has to be that this is down to something that GW are doing wrong, rather than an inherent problem with the internet.
Indeed, and its not just companies that get little criticism like Corvus Belli.
Mantic have garnered there fair share of anger over their products, some their own fault some perhaps a little out of their control, but what they have never done is close the doors of communication. Indeed, their community guy James seems more active when things go bad, just as he should be in fact.
Indeed, the fact Mantic, a company ran almost exclusively by ex GW staff recognise the need for a community manager and GW itself do not speaks volumes.
scarletsquig wrote:He has to kick everyone out, close the store then find a toilet in a nearby mall or fast food joint because there isn't one in the store.
And they have not been busted for labor law violations yet?
NoggintheNog wrote:
Indeed, the fact Mantic, a company ran almost exclusively by ex GW staff recognise the need for a community manager and GW itself do not speaks volumes.
Eh. GW is still a company that thinks that setting bibles are something written by the primarch of the Ultramarines. To say they have a mastery of mismanagement of their IP is a grotesque understatement.
GW will figure it out. They've never had this much competition before. Combine that pressure with 50-80% discounts on recasts - the impetus for change is sitting in their lap.
whether or not they accept reality before it hits them hard in the face is the question.
Xyptc wrote: And that's an online gaming company's website. We're dealing with a tabletop gaming company.
But that's the thing... Every other tabletop gaming company seems to be able to maintain an online presence without all the silliness. It's just GW that finds it all too hard.
At which point, the logical conclusion has to be that this is down to something that GW are doing wrong, rather than an inherent problem with the internet.
Pretty much. Nearly every single company/entity in the world has an online presence save GW. From the Israeli secret police (they never get criticized!) to vagisil. The idea that it's our fault and not GW's is baffling.
Panic wrote: yeah,
What do one man stores do it the guy has to go toilet?
Lunch break?
Panic...
Yeah kick everyone out, close up shop and place up a sign 'back in 5' or whatever it happens to be.
Which sucks tbh The amount of times I've been planning to go into the local GW store to grab something, and instead grabbing it online (for less) because the local GW was closed is getting old - I no longer bother to try and go to GW preferring the online order where possible simply due to being inconvenienced too many times.They moved into town, pushed the flgs out of bussiness and now do this cool move!
Alpharius wrote: Hard to believe that these One Man Stores can seriously push a FLGS out of business.
Limited hours, limited stock, limited in store gaming?
That can't compare to a well run 'real' game store!
Not being a part of either company at the time, I couldnt say for sure; But GW came to town and the flgs went. The flgs was certainly better from a point of view of gaming tables and space, but the GW does have a 'better stock' (of GW products only that is), maybe the local market isnt enough to share and have the two stores survive... mayb it was just co-incidence, I dont really know But it certainly feels as if there was a dick move from GW
Well, it isn't unheard of for a FLGS to spontaneously develop 'supply issues' when a new GW opens up nearby.
If the FLGS in question has a substantial part of its income derived from GW, this could put them in a tailspin which they wouldn't necessarily have the reserves to recover from, as switching focus to other products takes time, if it is even viable at all.
When I worked for an FLGS in Hammersmith, west London, in the 1980s, we were 200 yards around the corner from the original Dalling Road shop where it all began for Games Workshop in retail.
It didn't hurt us, but we had a focus on board games and computer games, while at that time GW didn't have a focus on WHFB/40K and were more of a general RPG shop.
The problem now is that it's hard to keep any kind of a specialist games shop going with modern British business costs of commercial leases and so on. WHFB/40K is often the biggest selling thing in the area, so when a GW moves in nearby, your indie shop is often in big trouble.
In Reading, there is a nice mainly boardgames shop called Eclectic Games, which seems to co-exist happily with the official GW shop at the other end of the high street. Eclectic does little or no GW stuff, as I recall.
