I'm trying to figure out how to fire a squadron of Wyverns from the new AM codex. I think I got most things right, but I'm stumbling on how "twin-linked" interacts with "multiple barrages".

Twin-linked for blasts states: "If the scatter dice does not roll a 'Hit', you can choose to re-roll the dice /.../ you must re-roll both the 2d6 and the scatter dice"

When determining the location first shot it is crystal clear that you get the re-roll, but how about the subsequent rolls according to paragraph two of the multiple barrages rule? Can you re-roll arrows for them as well?

On the one hand it is a scatter dice, on the other hand one could argue these rolls are not a to-hit rolls per se, rather a procedure on how to place the rest of the templates once the to hit roll is dealt with.

Any insights are welcome!

How I've always read it: you can re-roll the subsequent blasts, because you have the ability to re-roll the blast. Since the only die rolled is the scatter die itself, that's what you would re-roll.

Along these lines, given a full squadron of Wyverns with 12 blasts, after placing the first blast, do you roll scatter for (and place) the remaining blasts one at a time or roll all eleven scatter dice at once and place them in any order you desire?

 don_mondo wrote:
Along these lines, given a full squadron of Wyverns with 12 blasts, after placing the first blast, do you roll scatter for (and place) the remaining blasts one at a time or roll all eleven scatter dice at once and place them in any order you desire?

Are they Blasts or Barrage?

If Blast (Not Barrage) the rules for Multiple Blasts are on page 33

If Barrage the rules for Multiple Barrage are on page 34

As all scatter off the first one, you can fast dice roll as order is unimportant

nosferatu1001 wrote:
As all scatter off the first one, you can fast dice roll as order is unimportant

Actually, it IS important, given that hits can be placed off of any previously placed blast. Only arrow scatters must be placed off of the first one. If you fast roll and know where all your arrows of the first blast are and how many hits there are, you can plan your placement as opposed to rolling one at a time and having to place the hits on a lesser selection of blasts. Think about it, if you roll one at a time and the second roll is a hit, not a lot of choices, right?

 don_mondo wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
As all scatter off the first one, you can fast dice roll as order is unimportant

Actually, it IS important, given that hits can be placed off of any previously placed blast. Only arrow scatters must be placed off of the first one. If you fast roll and know where all your arrows of the first blast are and how many hits there are, you can plan your placement as opposed to rolling one at a time and having to place the hits on a lesser selection of blasts. Think about it, if you roll one at a time and the second roll is a hit, not a lot of choices, right?

Correct, order does matter but only if a Hit is rolled. (As you have noted).

However if the first Blast hits the most models in the unit that any single Blast can hit then any subsequent hits rolled would most assuredly be placed directly over the first Blast marker as you would want to maximize the hits.

if they are barrage though you may want to snipe out a Certain character or model and take less hits

Fragile wrote:
if they are barrage though you may want to snipe out a Certain character or model and take less hits

With a full squadron of Wyverns with 12 blasts it is hardly going to matter...

It certainly would for any unit that will get saves. Ill trade a few less hits for targeting the heavy weapon in a tac squad with the barrage

Yep. Lots of people seem to forget that a multiple barrage is actually supposed to be resolved (for wounds and saves) one blast marker at a time, determining the closest models for casualty removal for each blast marker separately. So if you can center a couple of hits on top of one particular model, that model is where you start taking casualties for those blasts.

It's ridiculously complicated to do it as written, but it can work out very much in the firer's favor if you're willing to process it all out. I generally try to streamline things, as opponents tend to get antsy when you're nitpicking over where you're 11th and 12th hit are allocated specifically.

 don_mondo wrote:
Yep. Lots of people seem to forget that a multiple barrage is actually supposed to be resolved (for wounds and saves) one blast marker at a time, determining the closest models for casualty removal for each blast marker separately. So if you can center a couple of hits on top of one particular model, that model is where you start taking casualties for those blasts.

You can streamline any "hit" in to a set of common pools at least.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 don_mondo wrote:
Yep. Lots of people seem to forget that a multiple barrage is actually supposed to be resolved (for wounds and saves) one blast marker at a time, determining the closest models for casualty removal for each blast marker separately. So if you can center a couple of hits on top of one particular model, that model is where you start taking casualties for those blasts.

You can streamline any "hit" in to a set of common pools at least.

Sure, one pool for each blast or if you have several exactly on top of each other. Bt if they are displaced from each other then working from the center changes who is closes and possible cover (not an issue in tis case).

But we're straying from my original question into why it might matter areas. So after the first blast is placed, should we roll the remaining scatters all at once or individually?

I thought your question was answered already. You are required to do them individually, and it gives you an advantage to do so, but takes a long time and is often done streamlined.

 Leonus wrote:
I thought your question was answered already. You are required to do them individually, and it gives you an advantage to do so, but takes a long time and is often done streamlined.

You say individually, others are saying all at once................................................ SO which is it?

[EDIT] D'oh. Forgot about multiple barrages. Need more caffeine...

I'd say roll them seperately as a succession of arrows could take a significant amount of the barrage off a target early on.

PanzerLeader wrote:
[EDIT] D'oh. Forgot about multiple barrages. Need more caffeine...

I'd say roll them seperately as a succession of arrows could take a significant amount of the barrage off a target early on.

No it cant.

All Arrows are placed so they are touching the edge of the first marker placed. So even if you have 4 arrows that go left they will go left off of the first marker, not any subsequent markers.

 DeathReaper wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:
I'd say roll them seperately as a succession of arrows could take a significant amount of the barrage off a target early on.

No it cant.

All Arrows are placed so they are touching the edge of the first marker placed. So even if you have 4 arrows that go left they will go left off of the first marker, not any subsequent markers.

A succession of hits however, could allow you to hit models quite far from the initial blast.

So for that reason it's important to roll the one at a time.

Course, if you are trying to daisy chain them to a particular location, then rolling them all at once is more beneficial since you can place all the arrows first and then chain your hits as you desire. Even more beneficial with rerolls on the scatters (yes, I know some say you don't get it).

 don_mondo wrote:
Course, if you are trying to daisy chain them to a particular location, then rolling them all at once is more beneficial since you can place all the arrows first and then chain your hits as you desire. Even more beneficial with rerolls on the scatters (yes, I know some say you don't get it).

Yes it's more beneficial, which is often a good indication you're not following the rules correctly

A hit! rolled for the first blast is less useful than one rolled for the forth.

Ya know, that's the point I've been trying to make in our local group.................

I guess at the end of the day this is a TO question
I've been playing it you only re roll first blast marker and subsequent markers cannot be re rolled because the twin linked blast rules state if you reroll you must reroll the scatter and the 2d6

Seems it would be pretty beneficial if you could re roll them all. Almost too beneficial

I was actually talking about rolling all the additional scatters together, but yes, it does apply to the reroll for twin linked as well.

Someone else pointed this out to me regarding the scatter rerolls for 2nd and later blasts:

Scatter
...
-Some rules may specify a distance to be determined other than the 2d6, in which case, just replace the 2d6 in this procedure with the method listed in the rule

Given that, does it affect anyone's opinions on whether or not the 2nd and later blasts can be rerolled?

Nope, my stance is the same, you Reroll all 12 shots if you want to

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Nope, my stance is the same, you Reroll all 12 shots if you want to

I agree with this.

Still the same here,
Permission to Re-Roll a Roll is permission to Re-Roll a Roll.

I'm going to have to disagree.

The roll to position the subsequent marks for a multiple blast are in no way a "to hit" roll (or equivelent). Unless so eons has found a rule stating/suggesting it is?
No is it a Scatter roll (this is defined early in the rules as being 2D6 + scatter die).

So it's not a "to hit" roll, nor is it a "Scatter" (not Scattef and scatter die are seperate things). So any ability that allows re-rolls to these cannot apply to the roll to place these markers.

Additionally, if you look at the Twin-Linked rule it states the 2D6 MUST be re-rolled in addition to the scatter die. There is no 2D6 roll.

So it's not a Scatter, or any form of "to hit" roll.
Can anyone provide a RaW reason why the subsequent markers can get a re-roll? Honestly I wish it could, but I'm seeing no rules support.

What about Twin-Linked Weapons which have a penalty of scattering 3d6, or a bonus to scatter only 1d6?

JinxDragon wrote:
What about Twin-Linked Weapons which have a penalty of scattering 3d6, or a bonus to scatter only 1d6?

A rule that alters the 2D6?
I'd say any reference to the 2D6 would be altered, including the reference in twin-linked.

But this isn't a Scatter, or a Scatter with altered rules. It's not a Scatter with the 2D6 taken away. It's a single roll of a scatter die, which is a very different thing to a scatter.

 grendel083 wrote:
I'm going to have to disagree.

The roll to position the subsequent marks for a multiple blast are in no way a "to hit" roll (or equivelent). Unless so eons has found a rule stating/suggesting it is?
No is it a Scatter roll (this is defined early in the rules as being 2D6 + scatter die).

So it's not a "to hit" roll, nor is it a "Scatter" (not Scattef and scatter die are seperate things). So any ability that allows re-rolls to these cannot apply to the roll to place these markers.

Additionally, if you look at the Twin-Linked rule it states the 2D6 MUST be re-rolled in addition to the scatter die. There is no 2D6 roll.

So it's not a Scatter, or any form of "to hit" roll.
Can anyone provide a RaW reason why the subsequent markers can get a re-roll? Honestly I wish it could, but I'm seeing no rules support.

I'll start with your 2d6 argument.

Main rulebook, page 6:
Scatter
-Some rules may specify a distance to be determined other than the 2d6, in which case, just replace the 2d6 in this procedure with the method listed in the rule.

So the rule tells us to roll just the scatter and then place the blast based on result, ie "replace the 2d6 with the method listed in the rule". So we replace 2d6 with arrow against initial blast and Hit touching any previously placed blast, ie the method listed in the rule for multiple barrage. Voila, there you go. So yes, reroll that lone scatter die without the 2d6.

And that's all that needs to be said really.

 don_mondo wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
I'm going to have to disagree.

The roll to position the subsequent marks for a multiple blast are in no way a "to hit" roll (or equivelent). Unless so eons has found a rule stating/suggesting it is?
No is it a Scatter roll (this is defined early in the rules as being 2D6 + scatter die).

So it's not a "to hit" roll, nor is it a "Scatter" (not Scattef and scatter die are seperate things). So any ability that allows re-rolls to these cannot apply to the roll to place these markers.

Additionally, if you look at the Twin-Linked rule it states the 2D6 MUST be re-rolled in addition to the scatter die. There is no 2D6 roll.

So it's not a Scatter, or any form of "to hit" roll.
Can anyone provide a RaW reason why the subsequent markers can get a re-roll? Honestly I wish it could, but I'm seeing no rules support.

I'll start with your 2d6 argument.

Main rulebook, page 6:
Scatter
-Some rules may specify a distance to be determined other than the 2d6, in which case, just replace the 2d6 in this procedure with the method listed in the rule.

So the rule tells us to roll just the scatter and then place the blast based on result, ie "replace the 2d6 with the method listed in the rule". So we replace 2d6 with arrow against initial blast and Hit touching any previously placed blast, ie the method listed in the rule for multiple barrage. Voila, there you go. So yes, reroll that lone scatter die without the 2d6.

And that's all that needs to be said really.

Scatter and scatter die are not the same thing, agreed?
A scatter die is used in a scatter, just as a D6 is used in a to hit roll.

So the rule you quoted would be correct if it was a Scatter that scattered 0". But that's not what the rule says.
The rule states scatter dice (not Scatter), and does not specify a distance of 0".

A terminology argument, how grand, I think I will sit here and see what develops.
Not meaning that as sarcasm either, arguments over fundamentals are far more enlightening then arguments over the Rule as Written.

JinxDragon wrote:
A terminology argument, how grand, I think I will sit here and see what develops.
Not meaning that as sarcasm either, arguments over fundamentals are far more enlightening then arguments over the Rule as Written.

I wouldn't say it's a terminology argument, more of an unhappy naming coincidence that causes problems (gun emplacement weapon nightmare...).

A scatter die is the name of the die in question.
A Scatter is an action involving 3 dice, one of which is a scatter die.

Had they have named it "arrow dice", it would be less of a problem. For example:

Scatter wrote:Roll an arrow dice and 2D6 to determine the direction and distance of scatter in inches

Multiple Barrage wrote:...roll an arrow dice for each other barrage weapon shot....

That would more easily highlight the difference between a scatter die and a Scatter.

Debating if the Terminology is too similar that it is confusion is still a Terminology debate, one that is very common because Game Workshop's love of doing that....
Still not sure it would solve this issue, but I am waiting still to see what others think because it is a very good line of thought.

 grendel083 wrote:


A Scatter is an action involving 3 dice, one of which is a scatter die.

But the above is incorrect. A scatter is NORMALLY an action involving 3 dice, but it can be modified (according to the main rulebook, page 6). A scatter does not need to be 3 dice, it can be one or two or four or whatever the scatter rule for that weapon, rule, whatever calls for.

Here's another example for you. I fire my twin-linked (isn't prescience wonderful) Leman Russ Executioner (5 x plasma blasts) at a unit that is within 12" of a servoskull. My scatter is dropped to 1d6 due to the servoskull. Do I get to reroll? I'm not using 2d6................ So the 2d6 argument is a fallacy and incorrect, yes?

 don_mondo wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:


A Scatter is an action involving 3 dice, one of which is a scatter die.

But the above is incorrect. A scatter is NORMALLY an action involving 3 dice, but it can be modified (according to the main rulebook, page 6). A scatter does not need to be 3 dice, it can be one or two or four or whatever the scatter rule for that weapon, rule, whatever calls for.

You're quite right, a Scatter is normally 3 dice, not necessarily always. However it's still not a Scatter that's being used in this case.

Here's another example for you. I fire my twin-linked (isn't prescience wonderful) Leman Russ Executioner (5 x plasma blasts) at a unit that is within 12" of a servoskull. My scatter is dropped to 1d6 due to the servoskull. Do I get to reroll? I'm not using 2d6................ So the 2d6 argument is a fallacy and incorrect, yes?

Its not a fallacy, no. And a similar question was asked earlier. Your example refers to an actual Scatter, with a modified distance. Again the roll for multiple barrage isn't a Scatter, so the example doesn't relate.
Also slight note: Prescience doesn't grant twin-linked.

With this example, at best you can prove that RaW your Executioner won't get a re-roll (not an option I support I'd like to note).
What your example can't prove, is that you can re-roll the roll for placing subsequent blast markers.

There's a specific word for this, but I can't remember it. Disproving my argument doesn't prove the original statement correct. So even if you disprove my argument of why you can't, you still haven't proved why you can.

It's not any sort of "to hit" roll, nor is it a scatter. So why should it get a re-roll?

From Barrage: "Once the first marker is placed, roll a scatter dice for each other Barrage weapon shot fired by the unit."

From Twin-linked: TWIN LINKED BLAST WEAPONS

If the scatter dice does not roll a Hit, you can choose to re-roll the dice with a Twin-linked Blast or Large Blast weapon."

Hmmmm, You are told to roll a scatter dice for the subsequent shots, and then twin-linked references a scatter dice roll, not just "scatter". Sounds like it will apply even though the placing of the secondary markers are not a "scatter" .

(Credit to DrTom for pointing this out)

I'm with ya on this don_mondo. This argument came up and was unresolved in the past, but we all missed the rule about replacing 2d6 with whatever is mentioned.

Don_mondo has it correct as far as I can tell.

 don_mondo wrote:
From Barrage: "Once the first marker is placed, roll a scatter dice for each other Barrage weapon shot fired by the unit."

From Twin-linked: TWIN LINKED BLAST WEAPONS

If the scatter dice does not roll a Hit, you can choose to re-roll the dice with a Twin-linked Blast or Large Blast weapon."

Except you're missing out some very key bits.

Let's start with WHEN can you re-roll?
If a model with the Twin-Linked rule deepstrikes, can you re-roll the scatter then? No. It isn't used any time a scatter die is rolled, only when it's rolled as part of a Scatter when firing a weapon. Agreed?

Rolling a scatter die to place subsequent blast markers is NOT a Scatter. It's never described as a Scatter, it doesn't follow the rules for a Scatter. Nor is it any form of "to hit" roll. Scatter or to hit are the ONLY ways Twin-Linked can grant a re-roll, agreed? And this is neither, so Twin-Linked can't come into play.

Hmmmm, You are told to roll a scatter dice for the subsequent shots, and then twin-linked references a scatter dice roll, not just "scatter". Sounds like it will apply even though the placing of the secondary markers are not a "scatter" .

Of course it references a scatter die. But what was that roll part of? What is it you're re-rolling?
That's right, a Scatter!

You also deliberately missed of part of the rule
"If you choose to do so, you must re-roll both the 2D6 and the scatter dice"
There was no 2D6 rule, because this was not a Scatter.
Which leads on to this point:

 Leonus wrote:
...but we all missed the rule about replacing 2d6 with whatever is mentioned.

Nothing is mentioned. It never states that the distance is replaced.
Yes it's possible to have a Scatter that scatters by a set amount rather than 2D6. The rules state that.
But in the Barrage rule, does it say that the roll in question is a Scatter, with a set value of 0" in place of the 2D6?
No it doesn't. Because it's not a Scatter! It's simply using a die commonly used in a Scatter. So that rule in this case does not apply.

So to sum up, it's not a Scatter nor is it a to hit roll. Since Twin-linked only allows re-rolls for these toe, it can't be used.
The rule mentions a scatter dice. However it does not ever refer to a Scatter. The roll is not a Scatter, so any rules related to a Scatter cannot be used.
So why should they get a re-roll?

Right, of course, there is no "other method listed in the rule" with which to replace the 2d6. Other method. Hmmmm, ya know, it sounds like it doesn't have to be a distance based on the words "other method". Where in that rule do you see other DISTANCE? You don't. You see "other method", like, oh I don't know, maybe placing it touching a previously placed blast marker. That does indeed sound an "other method" to me. But what do I know...................

Do you believe that Scatter (as defined early in the book) and scatter dice are the same thing?

Is everything involving a scatter dice, a Scatter?

 grendel083 wrote:
Do you believe that Scatter (as defined early in the book) and scatter dice are the same thing?

Is everything involving a scatter dice, a Scatter?

Pretty much, yes. I know you disagree in the case of multiple barrage. But also irrelevant since we have a rule that tells us explicitly to reroll the scatter DICE, not the scatter roll.

 don_mondo wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
Do you believe that Scatter (as defined early in the book) and scatter dice are the same thing?

Is everything involving a scatter dice, a Scatter?

Pretty much, yes. I know you disagree in the case of multiple barrage.

It's not in the case of multiple barrage that I disagree. It's in general.

Pretty much? It's a straight yes or no. It is or it isn't.

A scatter dice is a 6-sided cube that you roll.

A Scatter is a method of rolling 3 dice. 2 being D6, and one being the above mentioned scatter die. And then moving an object or marker the distance/direction indicated.

They absolutely are separate things.

But also irrelevant since we have a rule that tells us explicitly to reroll the scatter DICE, not the scatter roll.

Its not irrelevant at all.

What must you be rolling for the Twin-Linked rule to be called?
A Scatter.

In order to re-roll the scatter die (and 2D6 with you've again left that part of the rule off) you must first have preformed a Scatter.
Since there was no Scatter, you can't re-roll the dice involved.

Incorrect. A scatter is NORMALLY a roll of a scatter die and 2d6, but the rule showing that the 2d6 can be replaced by an "other method" has been posted multiple times now. So I'm really not sure why you keep coming back to that statement since it is patently false, as proven by the rules quoted.

So of course I keep leaving it off, because it is irrelevant given that we have a rule (that YOU keep ignoring) saying that the 2d6 can be replaced, and replaced not with a distance but with an "other method". So does multiple barrage give us an "other method" for determining scatter on the 2nd+ blasts. Yes, it does. Combined with the rule that tells us to reroll scatter dice, well, I'm really having a hard time seeing any support for your argument.

So are we just going to agree to disagree and get off this merry-go-round or shall we repeat the same posts for another 6 or 7 pages until a mod locks it? I'll even go first, I'm done unless someone brings something new to the discussion. Feel free to disagree with anything I've said (or agree, up to you). Later.

 don_mondo wrote:
Incorrect. A scatter is NORMALLY a roll of a scatter die and 2d6, but the rule showing that the 2d6 can be replaced by an "other method" has been posted multiple times now. So I'm really not sure why you keep coming back to that statement since it is patently false, as proven by the rules quoted.

I apologise, it was short hand. Yes normally it's 2D6 and a scatter die. However the rule doesn't say it's a Scatter, or that the range is being modified, or mention all the Scatter rules it doesn't follow.

So of course I keep leaving it off, because it is irrelevant given that we have a rule (that YOU keep ignoring) saying that the 2d6 can be replaced, and replaced not with a distance but with an "other method". So does multiple barrage give us an "other method" for determining scatter on the 2nd+ blasts. Yes, it does. Combined with the rule that tells us to reroll scatter dice, well, I'm really having a hard time seeing any support for your argument.

The 2D6 of a Scatter can be replaced.
Since this isn't a Scatter (simply the use of a scatter die) that rule has no bearing.

So are we just going to agree to disagree and get off this merry-go-round or shall we repeat the same posts for another 6 or 7 pages until a mod locks it? I'll even go first, I'm done unless someone brings something new to the discussion. Feel free to disagree with anything I've said (or agree, up to you). Later.

I'd just like some rules support that rolling a scatter dice is the same as the game defined term of Scatter.

Or that placing of the subsequent markers is a for of "to hit" roll (you can't use the a Twin-Linked rule to re-roll Deep Strike, so it must be a form to to hit as well as it being a Scatter. It's neither).

I'm sure you can think of other rules that use a scatter die that isn't a Scatter? There used (still is?) Psychic powers that would spin a model/vehicle randomly. Those used a scatter die, but were not a Scatter.

This is just the use of a 6-side cube (called a scatter dice). It is NOT a Scatter (as defined in the "basic principles" section of the rulebook).

Unfortunately I have to side with grendel
As when you roll subsequent blast markers to determine barrage position you only roll the scatter die.
Raw states the only way you can utilize twin link while using a blast marker is when you roll 2d6 + scatter die.
So by raw, you can reroll the first marker, but subsequent markers can not be re rolled as they only roll one dice not 3.
Horribly written rule. I'm a guard player and want to reroll everything!

Can't help it, must respond.

Awestrn wrote:

Raw states the only way you can utilize twin link while using a blast marker is when you roll 2d6 + scatter die.
!

No. It. Doesn't.
That's the default, which can be modified by other rules. Example, if I fire a blast within 12" of a servoskull it only scatters 1d6. If it's twin-linked, it still gets to reroll even tho it only scatters 1d6 instead of the default 2d6. Subsequent blasts on a multiple barrage merely use a set distance (3" in the case of the Wyvern) as opposed to 2d6. See page 6, last bullet point or just read the thread as it is posted several times here.

 don_mondo wrote:
No. It. Doesn't.
That's the default, which can be modified by other rules. Example, if I fire a blast within 12" of a servoskull it only scatters 1d6. If it's twin-linked, it still gets to reroll even tho it only scatters 1d6 instead of the default 2d6. Subsequent blasts on a multiple barrage merely use a set distance (3" in the case of the Wyvern) as opposed to 2d6. See page 6, last bullet point or just read the thread as it is posted several times here.

This isn't a Scatter.
So the rules for a Scatter really have no bearing.

 grendel083 wrote:
The 2D6 of a Scatter can be replaced.

Now show why it cannot be replaced with 0d6.

Fragile wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
The 2D6 of a Scatter can be replaced.

Now show why it cannot be replaced with 0d6.

It can.

But the roll to place the blast markers (after the first) isn't a Scatter, so why is that relevent?

"If a model has the abiliry to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must reroll both the scatter dice and the 2D6."

"Once the first marker is placed, roll a scatter dice for each other Barrage weapon shot fired by the unit."

 PrinceRaven wrote:
"If a model has the abiliry to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must reroll both the scatter dice and the 2D6."

"Once the first marker is placed, roll a scatter dice for each other Barrage weapon shot fired by the unit."

The first quote is for when you fire a blast/barrage weapon correct?
It allows you to re-roll the dice involved in a Scatter, correct?

I've highlighted part of the second quote. Does it say Scatter, or does it say roll a scatter dice?

There's a big difference between Scatter and a scatter dice. One is an action involving 3 dice and the movement of a marker. The other is a dice.

So since you've provided a quote showing we are not dealing with a Scatter (the second quote, as highlighted), then how is the ability to re-roll the dice involved in a Scatter relevant?

It's like quoting this rule for a leadership test, just because it mentions a 2D6. If it's not a Scattering blast weapon being fired, then the rule isn't used.

 grendel083 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
"If a model has the abiliry to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must reroll both the scatter dice and the 2D6."

"Once the first marker is placed, roll a scatter dice for each other Barrage weapon shot fired by the unit."

The first quote is for when you fire a blast/barrage weapon correct?
It allows you to re-roll the dice involved in a Scatter, correct?

Yes.
As it states, it allows you to reroll the scatter dice and the 2d6.

I've highlighted part of the second quote. Does it say Scatter, or does it say roll a scatter dice?

Scatter dice.

There's a big difference between Scatter and a scatter dice. One is an action involving 3 dice and the movement of a marker. The other is a dice.

So since you've provided a quote showing we are not dealing with a Scatter (the second quote, as highlighted), then how is the ability to re-roll the dice involved in a Scatter relevant?

Because it explicitly states you reroll the scatter dice?

It's like quoting this rule for a leadership test, just because it mentions a 2D6. If it's not a Scattering blast weapon being fired, then the rule isn't used.

Actually it is a scattering blast weapon being fired, it says so right there in the quote - " roll a scatter dice for each other Barrage weapon shot fired by the unit."

I would actually agree with Grendel here, even though i have always read, and played it like the rest of us.

"roll a scatter dice for each other Barrage" is not the same as "Roll a Scatter with 0D6"

One is rolling Scatter, the other is rolling another dice, it may even have barrage saying "Roll a D20" - it's not a Scatter even though you are using that white Dice

The "Blast Weapons and Re-rolls" rule explicitly states you re-roll the scatter dice.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Because it explicitly states you reroll the scatter dice?

As part of what? What is it it's allowing you to re-roll?
A Scatter! You're re-rolling the dice involved in a Scatter.

So if the scatter dice was not used in a Scatter, how can you use a rule for re-rolling Scatters? You can't.
It also explicitly states you re-roll 2D6. Does that mean you can use it to re-roll a Leadership test? Because that's exactly the sort of thing you're trying to do. Using a rule that doesn't apply, just because it mentions the same dice used.

Actually it is a scattering blast weapon being fired, it says so right there in the quote - " roll a scatter dice for each other Barrage weapon shot fired by the unit."

Placing the initial blast is a Scatter. Absolutely no doubt there.
Placing the subsequent blasts is NOT a Scatter. You quoted it before, you even said yourself it says "roll a scatter dice" and not "Scatter".

scatter dice =/= Scatter


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The "Blast Weapons and Re-rolls" rule explicitly states you re-roll the scatter dice.

You can only re-roll them if you were rolling a Scatter in the first place.

You weren't. So you can't.

The "Blast Weapons and Re-rolls" rules do not state that.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The "Blast Weapons and Re-rolls" rules do not state that.

Doesn't state that you're firing a Blast weapon? Which doesn't involve a Scatter? Are you sure?

So it lets you re-roll leadership tests? Because it doesn't state those 2D6 must be part of a Scatter?

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The "Blast Weapons and Re-rolls" rules do not state that.

"If the model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6"

It doesn't state that you are restricted to only using the reroll when rolling a Scatter, only when firing a blast weapon.
If you're making a leadership test, are you firing a blast weapon?
If you a firing a Multiple Barrage, are you firing a blast weapon?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The "Blast Weapons and Re-rolls" rules do not state that.

"If the model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6"

I don't see anything along the lines of, "oh btw, this only works when you're rolling a Scatter".

 PrinceRaven wrote:
It doesn't state that you are restricted to only using the reroll when rolling a Scatter, only when firing a blast weapon.
If you're making a leadership test, are you firing a blast weapon?
If you a firing a Multiple Barrage, are you firing a blast weapon?

Do Blast weapons Scatter?
If yes, do you think the scatter dice and 2D6 the rule refers to is in reference to that Scatter?

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The "Blast Weapons and Re-rolls" rules do not state that.

"If the model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6"

I don't see anything along the lines of, "oh btw, this only works when you're rolling a Scatter".

Ah, for that you need to look further up, where it says: "Roll for the blast marker to scatter and subtract the firer's Ballistic Skill from the distance (if any) that it scatters"

But i was assuming you knew the rules for "Blast weapons" as per p33?

 BlackTalos wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The "Blast Weapons and Re-rolls" rules do not state that.

"If the model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6"

I don't see anything along the lines of, "oh btw, this only works when you're rolling a Scatter".

Ah, for that you need to look further up, where it says: "Roll for the blast marker to scatter and subtract the firer's Ballistic Skill from the distance (if any) that it scatters"

But i was assuming you knew the rules for "Blast weapons" as per p33?

Barrage weapons also follow all the normal blast weapon rules, with exceptions as specified. There is no exception stating that barrage weapons with rerolls are treated differently than blast weapons with rerolls. We simply have a different mechanic for determining the location of subsequent shots in the volley. The barrage rules modify the blast rules so that subquent shots scatter one scatter dice off the initial template instead of having a full scatter again.

PanzerLeader wrote:
subquent shots scatter one scatter dice off the initial template instead of having a full scatter again.

This is the part that i would have agreed with 20 mins ago, but that Grendel pointed out is actually very different.

They do not scatter one Scatter dice. They use the scatter dice only. If the same rule said "Roll a D12 for every other shot, and measure, clockwise, the position of the Template" It asks you to roll that one Dice.
It just happens to be a Scatter Dice which indeed makes the whole thing confusing.

PanzerLeader wrote:
Barrage weapons also follow all the normal blast weapon rules, with exceptions as specified. There is no exception stating that barrage weapons with rerolls are treated differently than blast weapons with rerolls. We simply have a different mechanic for determining the location of subsequent shots in the volley. The barrage rules modify the blast rules so that subquent shots scatter one scatter dice off the initial template instead of having a full scatter again.

The subsequent shots do not Scatter. They use a different mechanic as you say.
So how can you use a rule for re-rolling a Scatter, when you didn't Scatter?

 grendel083 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
It doesn't state that you are restricted to only using the reroll when rolling a Scatter, only when firing a blast weapon.
If you're making a leadership test, are you firing a blast weapon?
If you a firing a Multiple Barrage, are you firing a blast weapon?

Do Blast weapons Scatter?

Yes.

If yes, do you think the scatter dice and 2D6 the rule refers to is in reference to that Scatter?

Yes I do, as that is the normal method you use when firing a blast weapon.
Your point being?

I would point out, though Grendel, that RaI and HIWPI, the intention was for it to be a Scatter, and only because we are discussing RaW you would not re-roll that dice.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
It doesn't state that you are restricted to only using the reroll when rolling a Scatter, only when firing a blast weapon.
If you're making a leadership test, are you firing a blast weapon?
If you a firing a Multiple Barrage, are you firing a blast weapon?

Do Blast weapons Scatter?

Yes.

If yes, do you think the scatter dice and 2D6 the rule refers to is in reference to that Scatter?

Yes I do, as that is the normal method you use when firing a blast weapon.
Your point being?

So you now agree that it's a rule allowing a re-roll for the dice involved in a Scatter. Great.

The roll for positioning subsequent shots is not a Scatter. So this rule cannot allow it to be re-rolled.
You're trying to use a rule to re-roll dice it doesn't allow a re-roll for.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlackTalos wrote:
I would point out, though Grendel, that RaI and HIWPI, the intention was for it to be a Scatter, and only because we are discussing RaW you would not re-roll that dice.

Thats a different argument altogether, and one that's impossible to prove.
Personally I thing the RAI is that they shouldn't get re-rolls. Re-rolls only on the initial shot.

 grendel083 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
It doesn't state that you are restricted to only using the reroll when rolling a Scatter, only when firing a blast weapon.
If you're making a leadership test, are you firing a blast weapon?
If you a firing a Multiple Barrage, are you firing a blast weapon?

Do Blast weapons Scatter?

Yes.

If yes, do you think the scatter dice and 2D6 the rule refers to is in reference to that Scatter?

Yes I do, as that is the normal method you use when firing a blast weapon.
Your point being?

So you now agree that it's a rule allowing a re-roll for the dice involved in a Scatter. Great.

No, I agreed that it is referencing the dice used in a Scatter. The rule allows to reroll the scatter dice and the 2d6 when firing a blast weapon, which is normally a Scatter but not always.

The roll for positioning subsequent shots is not a Scatter. So this rule cannot allow it to be re-rolled.
You're trying to use a rule to re-roll dice it doesn't allow a re-roll for.

I am firing a multiple barrage, am I firing a blast weapon?
Am I rolling a scatter dice?
Does the rule in question grant permission to reroll a scatter die?

 PrinceRaven wrote:
No, I agreed that it is referencing the dice used in a Scatter. The rule allows to reroll the scatter dice and the 2d6 when firing a blast weapon, which is normally a Scatter but not always.

It's a re-roll correct? So if you didn't roll it in the first place, how can you re-roll it?

You didn't roll a Scatter. You're trying to re-roll a dice that wasn't involved in the initial roll.
The rule gives you permission to re-roll the very specific dice that was involved in the Scatter. Not any other dice you fancy.

I am firing a multiple barrage, am I firing a blast weapon?
Am I rolling a scatter dice?
Does the rule in question grant permission to reroll a scatter die?

You're rolling to place subsequent shots.
The rule grants the ability to re-roll the dice involved in the Scatter. These dice were not involved in the Scatter. So no, you can't re-roll them.

Does the rule say you can re-roll any dice involved in the shot?
Is it every specific as to which dice you can re-roll?

 grendel083 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
I would point out, though Grendel, that RaI and HIWPI, the intention was for it to be a Scatter, and only because we are discussing RaW you would not re-roll that dice.

Thats a different argument altogether, and one that's impossible to prove.
Personally I thing the RAI is that they shouldn't get re-rolls. Re-rolls only on the initial shot.

Going by RaI or HIWPI, Re-rolls generally, if not always, apply per shot.

TL Assault cannon re-rolls each 4 shots individually,
just as a TL Heavy 4 Barrage would "re-roll" every shot (some are just rolling the scatter dice) - ignoring the current RaW position that the following shots aren't actually Scatter as defined.

 grendel083 wrote:
The rule grants the ability to re-roll the dice involved in the Scatter.

This is a deliberate lie, the rule does not give me permission to re-roll "the dice involved in a Scatter" it gives me permission to re-roll "both the scatter dice and the 2D6" when firing a blast weapon.
You have failed to answer my questions, so I shall restate them.
I am firing a multiple barrage:
Am I firing a blast weapon?
Am I rolling a scatter die?
Does the rule in question grant permission to reroll a scatter die?

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
The rule grants the ability to re-roll the dice involved in the Scatter.

This is a deliberate lie, the rule does not give me permission to re-roll "the dice involved in a Scatter" it gives me permission to re-roll "both the scatter dice and the 2D6" when firing a blast weapon.
You have failed to answer my questions, so I shall restate them.
I am firing a multiple barrage:
Am I firing a blast weapon?

Yes

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Am I rolling a scatter die?

Yes

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Does the rule in question grant permission to reroll a scatter die?

No

 BlackTalos wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Does the rule in question grant permission to reroll a scatter die?

No

Ah, good, some answers.

Now, why not? Why does permission to re-roll "both the scatter dice and the 2D6" not grant permission to reroll the scatter die?
Obviously, I would like the argument to be, you know, supported with actual rules. I know that can be hard when the rules directly contradict your argument, but please do try.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
The rule grants the ability to re-roll the dice involved in the Scatter.

This is a deliberate lie, the rule does not give me permission to re-roll "the dice involved in a Scatter" it gives me permission to re-roll "both the scatter dice and the 2D6" when firing a blast weapon.

Excuse me? Deliberate lie?
Which scatter dice and 2D6 does it allow you to re-roll then?
Any at all according to you.

From the Twin-linked rule:
"If the scatter dice does not roll a Hit, you may choose to re-roll the dice"

As you correctly stated earlier, the scatter dice mentioned is the one involved in the Scatter. THAT is the dice you can re-roll.
You're using this rule to re-roll a dice that was never used in a Scatter.
Using a rule for one thing, and applying it to another.

You have failed to answer my questions, so I shall restate them.
I am firing a multiple barrage:
Am I firing a blast weapon?
Am I rolling a scatter die?
Does the rule in question grant permission to reroll a scatter die?

Yes,
Yes,
Yes,
It allows the re-roll of the scatter dice that was involved in a Scatter. The scatter dice in question was not used in a Scatter. The rules for a Scatter can be found in the "Basic Principles" section of the rulebook (page 8 I think, 22 on the iBook version of the rules).

Does the roll to place Subsequent shots in a Multiple Barrage follow the rules for a Scatter as described on page 8?
Does the Multiple Barrage rule say that this is a Scatter, or does it say you roll a Scatter dice?
Does a rule that allows you to re-roll a Scatter, let your re-roll something that isn't a Scatter (without any rule specifying it does?)

 BlackTalos wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The "Blast Weapons and Re-rolls" rules do not state that.

"If the model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6"

Scatter
...
-Some rules may specify a distance to be determined other than the 2d6, in which case, just replace the 2d6 in this procedure with the method listed in the rule

So, do the multiple barrage rules specify a different method? Why yes, they do. So the 2d6 is replaced by the method listed in the rules.

 grendel083 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
The rule grants the ability to re-roll the dice involved in the Scatter.

This is a deliberate lie, the rule does not give me permission to re-roll "the dice involved in a Scatter" it gives me permission to re-roll "both the scatter dice and the 2D6" when firing a blast weapon.

Excuse me? Deliberate lie?
Which scatter dice and 2D6 does it allow you to re-roll then?
Any at all according to you.

The ones involved in firing a blast weapon, so usually a Scatter but not always.

You have failed to answer my questions, so I shall restate them.
I am firing a multiple barrage:
Am I firing a blast weapon?
Am I rolling a scatter die?
Does the rule in question grant permission to reroll a scatter die?

Yes,
Yes,
Yes,
It allows the re-roll of the scatter dice that was involved in a Scatter. The scatter dice in question was not used in a Scatter. The rules for a Scatter can be found in the "Basic Principles" section of the rulebook (page 8 I think, 22 on the iBook version of the rules).

Please show me the rules that state they have to be part of a Scatter.

Does the roll to place Subsequent shots in a Multiple Barrage follow the rules for a Scatter as described on page 8? No
Does the Multiple Barrage rule say that this is a Scatter, or does it say you roll a Scatter dice? Scatter dice
Does a rule that allows you to re-roll a Scatter, let your re-roll something that isn't a Scatter (without any rule specifying it does?) No it doesn't, so if you manage to prove that the rule only applies Scatters I will concede that you are correct.

 don_mondo wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
The "Blast Weapons and Re-rolls" rules do not state that.

"If the model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6"

Scatter
...
-Some rules may specify a distance to be determined other than the 2d6, in which case, just replace the 2d6 in this procedure with the method listed in the rule

So, do the multiple barrage rules specify a different method? Why yes, they do. So the 2d6 is replaced by the method listed in the rules.

It's not a Scatter. It's not described as a Scatter. It doesn't say it's a Scatter.

So the rules for Scatter don't matter at all. Why do you keep quoting this?

Because it is a scatter and they do matter...........

 PrinceRaven wrote:

Does the roll to place Subsequent shots in a Multiple Barrage follow the rules for a Scatter as described on page 8? No
Does the Multiple Barrage rule say that this is a Scatter, or does it say you roll a Scatter dice? Scatter dice
Does a rule that allows you to re-roll a Scatter, let your re-roll something that isn't a Scatter (without any rule specifying it does?) No it doesn't, so if you manage to prove that the rule only applies Scatters I will concede that you are correct.

From the Twin Linked rule:
"If the scatter dice does not roll a Hit, you may choose to re-roll the dice"

Which scatter dice is it referring to? Is it the one involved in the Scatter of the blast marker?
If so then the rule allows you to re-roll that dice, correct?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 don_mondo wrote:
Because it is a scatter and they do matter...........

Prove it. The rule doesn't say it's a Scatter.

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Does the rule in question grant permission to reroll a scatter die?

No

Ah, good, some answers.

Now, why not? Why does permission to re-roll "both the scatter dice and the 2D6" not grant permission to reroll the scatter die?
Obviously, I would like the argument to be, you know, supported with actual rules. I know that can be hard when the rules directly contradict your argument, but please do try.

because "both the scatter dice and the 2D6" is a permission to re-roll a Scatter described on p6. It is not a permission to re-roll "a Scatter dice". Keyword: "Both"

So if I have permission to both shoot and charge an enemy unit I can't choose to only to do 1?

 BlackTalos wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Does the rule in question grant permission to reroll a scatter die?

No

Ah, good, some answers.

Now, why not? Why does permission to re-roll "both the scatter dice and the 2D6" not grant permission to reroll the scatter die?
Obviously, I would like the argument to be, you know, supported with actual rules. I know that can be hard when the rules directly contradict your argument, but please do try.

because "both the scatter dice and the 2D6" is a permission to re-roll a Scatter described on p6. It is not a permission to re-roll "a Scatter dice". Keyword: "Both"

But as Grendel just posted, we also have a rule that grants specific permission to reroll the scatter dice if you do not roll a hit.

Course, IMO, the subsequent blasts are a "scatter" roll as you are rolling the scatter dice to determine the final location of a blast marker, and using the method in the rules for multiple barrage to determine the blasts final location. That's where You and Grendel are disagreeing I believe (ie whether or not it qualifies as a 'scatter'), and I don't see either of us changing the others mind. Later.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
So if I have permission to both shoot and charge an enemy unit I can't choose to only to do 1?

A more accurate question is "If I have permission to re-roll charge distances, can I re-roll my run move".

You're trying to use an ability that lets you re-roll the dice used in a Scatter, to try and re-roll a die that wasn't part of a Scatter.

 grendel083 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
So if I have permission to both shoot and charge an enemy unit I can't choose to only to do 1?

A more accurate question is "If I have permission to re-roll charge distances, can I re-roll my run move".

You're trying to use an ability that lets you re-roll the dice used in a Scatter, to try and re-roll a die that wasn't part of a Scatter.

Once again, prove it.

 don_mondo wrote:
Course, IMO, the subsequent blasts are a "scatter" roll as you are rolling the scatter dice to determine the final location of a blast marker

But that's not a Scatter. It follows none of the rules for a Scatter, just a general principle of rolling a Scatter dice.

That's it, just a very slight similarity.

For example, if you roll a HIT! on a Scatter, the marker doesn't move. Multiple Barrage doesn't follow that. Or any other rule.

Rule in question doesn't say it's a Scatter, just says you use a scatter dice.

Scatter and scatter dice are two different things. On is an object, the other an action.

Like I say, that's where we disagree and we're not going to change each others minds....................

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
So if I have permission to both shoot and charge an enemy unit I can't choose to only to do 1?

A more accurate question is "If I have permission to re-roll charge distances, can I re-roll my run move".

You're trying to use an ability that lets you re-roll the dice used in a Scatter, to try and re-roll a die that wasn't part of a Scatter.

Once again, prove it.

You mean Prove it again?

You yourself have agreed that the roll mentioned in the twin-linked rule is a Scatter. The rule says that is the dice that is being re-rolled.

The roll to place a subsequent marker isn't a Scatter, and wasn't used in a Scatter. You also agreed it wasn't described as a Scatter, and follows none of the rules for a Scatter.

So how can you re-roll the dice that arn't part of a Scatter, using a rule that lets you re-roll a Scatter?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 don_mondo wrote:
Like I say, that's where we disagree and we're not going to change each others minds....................

Can you at least provide any rules support that a Scatter and rolling a single scatter dice are the same thing?

I'm just curious as to why you think they are the same.

 grendel083 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
So if I have permission to both shoot and charge an enemy unit I can't choose to only to do 1?

A more accurate question is "If I have permission to re-roll charge distances, can I re-roll my run move".

You're trying to use an ability that lets you re-roll the dice used in a Scatter, to try and re-roll a die that wasn't part of a Scatter.

Once again, prove it.

You mean Prove it again?

You yourself have agreed that the roll mentioned in the twin-linked rule is a Scatter. The rule says that is the dice that is being re-rolled.

I agreed that the rule references Scatters as that is the most common time in which you will be rolling a scatter die and/or 2d6 when firing a blast weapon, I did not agree that this means the rule only applies to Scatters and have since asked you to prove that it does.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I agreed that the rule references Scatters as that is the most common time in which you will be rolling a scatter die and/or 2d6 when firing a blast weapon, I did not agree that this means the rule only applies to Scatters and have since asked you to prove that it does.

Well we're at a stand-still then.

Since you equally can't prove it refers to anything other than Scatter used to place a marker.

I can indeed:
"If a model has the abiliry to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must reroll both the scatter dice and the 2D6."

It applies when you are firing a blast weapon and have the ability to re-roll to hit rolls.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I can indeed:
"If a model has the abiliry to re-roll its rolls To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must reroll both the scatter dice and the 2D6."

It applies when you are firing a blast weapon and have the ability to re-roll to hit rolls.

Except there was no 2D6 roll with this. It's not a Scatter, so you can't claim the "modified distance clause".
If you re-roll only the scatter die, you're breaking the rule.

Clearly it cannot be refering to the single roll of a scatter die.

If I cast Enfeeble on a Rhino it does not reduce strength and toughness but does treat all difficult terrain as dangerous.

Same principle applies, when you can't apply all of the effects of a rule you apply as many of them as you can.

Again this is purely on the assumption that rule is not refering solely to the Scatter. You're relying on the vagueness of a sentence, which the context doesn't agree with.

I thought this was a RAW discussion, not RAI.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I thought this was a RAW discussion, not RAI.

You don't believe context is RaW?

It lets you know what a rule is refering to. Without context the rules simply wouldn't work.

I believe that rules as written means looking at the rules as they written and using them in such a way, rather than claiming because of the context they were intended to be used a different way.

I'd be happy to go into rules as intended arguments though, if you wish.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I believe that rules as written means looking at the rules as they written and using them in such a way, rather than claiming because of the context they were intended to be used a different way.

You still need context.

For example:
There's a rule about rolling dice. It's under the shooting section concerning hitting a target.
The context is "rolling to hit" but if it simply refers to rolls, and you don't apply the context, then it could be used in any situation involing a dice roll.

Context is part of the language used to write the rules, it should not be ignored.

After hearing the arguments, I am convinced there is no clear ruling, after searching for TO rulings and coming up empty I have decided to make a decision based solely on least harm done. I crunched the numbers for average scatter distance of blast weapons and multiple barrage weapons (using small blast to ensure the lowest multiple barrage distance scattered is used) with and with out twin linked for BS 3 and BS 4 and compared both methods. The TL rule grants blast weapons a 1/3 bonus to accuracy this will be considered the base accuracy increase to blast weapons because most people agree on how TL should affect blast weapons with scatter.

Without re-rolling subsequent blast markers in a multiple barrage the TL rule gives only a 21% and 18% increase to multiple barrage weapons with BS 3 and BS 4 respectively. This is about a 36% detriment to TL multiple barrage accuracy bonus.

Allowing multiple barrages to re-roll all multiple blast markers provides a 47% and 45% increase to accuracy to BS 3 and BS 4 multiple barrages respectively. This results in about a 26% detriment to blast accuracy bonus.

Because multiple barrages are less accurate on average than their blast counterparts I am inclined to rule in favor of them in this case, as the additional increase in accuracy from TL actually makes them comparable to the accuracy of twin linked blasts.

anyway here is the XLS i used, maybe there is some error in there, it did get quite sloppy near the end.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/205120.page#1010712

Luckily this whole conundrum isnt relevant any more since the 7th edition rules for Twin Linking dont ever use the call "scatter" thus we dont have to discuss if the multi barage scatter dice roll is a real scatter or just something that happens to be named similiar.