So everyone is saying that the new smash rule is only 1 attack at double strength, instead of half attacks.
This would make most walker pretty tough for a lot of MCs to dent. They have to hit with their 1 attack, then pen, which would normally be 3+ then 3+ with that one attack.
Maulerfiends have the 5++ helping them out a bit.
Maulerfiends have those magmacutters that give them extra hits against things they wound.
And they are fast, so they can actually chase down MCs that dont want to be in combat with them.
Exergy wrote: So everyone is saying that the new smash rule is only 1 attack at double strength, instead of half attacks.
This would make most walker pretty tough for a lot of MCs to dent. They have to hit with their 1 attack, then pen, which would normally be 3+ then 3+ with that one attack.
Maulerfiends have the 5++ helping them out a bit.
Maulerfiends have those magmacutters that give them extra hits against things they wound.
And they are fast, so they can actually chase down MCs that dont want to be in combat with them.
it's an idea isnt it?
Pretty much any MC without armorbane and/or native S8-10 is now pretty well boned against melee walkers, and Maulerfiends are going to be able to strike down Bloodthirsters with impunity.
I'd still avoid Carnifexes, Dreadknights, and Wraithknights like the plague though, and have psychic defences ready for the likes of GUOzilla. But most everything else is fair game.
MCs in general took a heavy beating with the (needed) smash nerf.
And walkers got back on their feet, so to speak, with both the vehicle damage charge being more forgiving, and thier main contesters, MCs no longer braking them apart like nothing.
BoomWolf wrote: MCs in general took a heavy beating with the (needed) smash nerf.
And walkers got back on their feet, so to speak, with both the vehicle damage charge being more forgiving, and thier main contesters, MCs no longer braking them apart like nothing.
In hurting the effectiveness of Riptides and Psyker spamming Daemon Princes and the like against Vehicles, they also made the likes of Trygons, Bloodthirsters, and Hive Tyrants virtually unusable against them in assault.
But Melee Tyrants, Trygons, and Khorne were already subpar *sigh*.
Well a single smash can still hurt the thing on a 3+ can still knock off 2HP and then still roll for a 6 to explode. god help ya if they rip off on arm or leg.
Desubot wrote: Well a single smash can still hurt the thing on a 3+ can still knock off 2HP and then still roll for a 6 to explode. god help ya if they rip off on arm or leg.
That needs to actually hit first, and the AWESOME WS chart is going to make that an unlikely prospect. And the Daemon rule offers them some protection.
According to 3++'s QnA the one smash attack has armorbane and is of course at ap2 so its still somewhat dangerous to vehicles. Not so likely to explode you with only one hit but it will get a pen more often than not.
Most MCs are now utterly boned against Imperial Knights.
None of the S6 MCs can hurt it at all without smash (barring furious charge and praying for glances or getting armourbane somehow), and it can reliably kill most of them (Gods help you if it rolls a six) with little difficulty.
An Imperial Knight could take on a trio of Trygons or Bloodthirsters and the only difficulty it would face would be the amount of time it spent killing them all.
JubbJubbz wrote: According to 3++'s QnA the one smash attack has armorbane and is of course at ap2 so its still somewhat dangerous to vehicles. Not so likely to explode you with only one hit but it will get a pen more often than not.
That's still not really good given how bad the WS chart is. But that's a bit better.
It does however mean that an Imperial priest's fists can now hit as hard as the old eviscerator because his boner for the Emperor is just that strong. Which is endlessly funny to me.
JubbJubbz wrote: According to 3++'s QnA the one smash attack has armorbane and is of course at ap2 so its still somewhat dangerous to vehicles. Not so likely to explode you with only one hit but it will get a pen more often than not.
It's still one attack though. So it has to hit, it's the same problem the BL artifact has,(50 some points: trade all attacks for 1 attack that has fleshbanse, armorbane, and ID) You have to hit first. So if a 125 point maulerfiend is smacking around doing 4-5 wounds a round and the smashing MC is countering with it's one attack, that misses half the time it isnt going to be a good day for the MC. Now if the MC is a DE Pain Engine, well great, Pain Engines were never competitive and cost trivial amounts. But if it's a 250point nasty it might make some people unhappy.
In all honesty I just don't know why they kept the "replace attacks with X doubling strength" mechanism for Smash attacks.
AP2 was more than enough. Considering most MCs that are actually meant to be in CC (Lets forget about the Riptide for now) already have str 5+ most being of the Str 6 quality, was there really a reason to give them automatic str 10? Now Riptides aren't supposed to be good in melee at all, but on the off chance you DO make that 1 smash attack, you're killing a Daemon Prince if he fails his 5++ You're destroying a Land Raider on a 4+ and now they have Armorbane? Cmon GW. Knock that gak off and stop giving MCs stupid rules they don't need. AP 2 was fine and enough.
GoliothOnline wrote: In all honesty I just don't know why they kept the "replace attacks with X doubling strength" mechanism for Smash attacks.
AP2 was more than enough. Considering most MCs that are actually meant to be in CC (Lets forget about the Riptide for now) already have str 5+ most being of the Str 6 quality, was there really a reason to give them automatic str 10? Now Riptides aren't supposed to be good in melee at all, but on the off chance you DO make that 1 smash attack, you're killing a Daemon Prince if he fails his 5++ You're destroying a Land Raider on a 4+ and now they have Armorbane? Cmon GW. Knock that gak off and stop giving MCs stupid rules they don't need. AP 2 was fine and enough.
Bloodthirsters, Trygons, Keeper of Secrets, Great Unclean Ones, Hive Tyrants, Haruspexes, Daemon Princes, Knarlocs, Canoptek Stalkers, and Big Squiggoths are all ostensibly melee melee MCs without access to native S10.
Now the GUO, Daemon prince, and KoS can all easily get Iron Arm and don't really care.
The others apparently can go and get fethed if faced with anything as simple as a Dreadnought.
I pay 200+ points for a Trygon which doesn't have the weight of attacks to be good at clearing out large infantry blocks or the invulnerable save to be truly worth it's cost in a monster-fight, it should not be getting it's ass handed to it by a much cheaper Dreadnought.
Try the thirster can get up to 11 attacks IF kitted and lucky enough on the charge and can barely hurt a basic dread and would have to smash an ironclad, thats not good for a 300pt monster, combine this with the no charge on the turn he lands from flying and its not looking good.
from the leaks the best things to beat deamons and nids is dreads and there equivilants, they should just walk though all mc's without much problem.
Skullhammer wrote: Try the thirster can get up to 11 attacks IF kitted and lucky enough on the charge and can barely hurt a basic dread and would have to smash an ironclad, thats not good for a 300pt monster, combine this with the no charge on the turn he lands from flying and its not looking good.
from the leaks the best things to beat deamons and nids is dreads and there equivilants, they should just walk though all mc's without much problem.
Furioso contemptor dread with blood claws.
Given prescience and some luck as you consolidate from unit to unit, you could probably rip and tear your way through most of a daemon or tyranid army with this one unit, though I'm sure eventually someone would get in a smash hit.
A regular furioso or black company dread could also do more or less the same, but only has AV12 and no fleet.
Skullhammer wrote: Try the thirster can get up to 11 attacks IF kitted and lucky enough on the charge and can barely hurt a basic dread and would have to smash an ironclad, thats not good for a 300pt monster, combine this with the no charge on the turn he lands from flying and its not looking good.
from the leaks the best things to beat deamons and nids is dreads and there equivilants, they should just walk though all mc's without much problem.
Bet that thirster can't get killed in one shot. And can mulch infantry in a turn. And can stomp all over a wide variety of ICs and other MCs. And has a higher WS/Init than a dreadnought. And double the movement. And can't get immobilized.
Dreadnoughts haven't been able to be fielded seriously all edition. Even if this is an overnerf, there's a part of me that says: enjoy your time on the bottom, MCs.
obsidiankatana wrote: Dreadnoughts haven't been able to be fielded seriously all edition. Even if this is an overnerf, there's a part of me that says: enjoy your time on the bottom, MCs.
obsidiankatana wrote: Dreadnoughts haven't been able to be fielded seriously all edition. Even if this is an overnerf, there's a part of me that says: enjoy your time on the bottom, MCs.
obsidiankatana wrote: Dreadnoughts haven't been able to be fielded seriously all edition. Even if this is an overnerf, there's a part of me that says: enjoy your time on the bottom, MCs.
Very few people used dreadnoughts in 6th because they were crap. Now they can stand toe-to-toe with MCs and therefore MIGHT see play but will probably remain mostly on the shelf. I wouldn't worry too much about it.
I've liked my Hellbrutes ever since the datalates came out for Mayhem packs. I've used them to great success ever since. I have a feeling the Hellfist Murder Pack will become a lot stronger with the new Damage table for vehicles
Skullhammer wrote: Try the thirster can get up to 11 attacks IF kitted and lucky enough on the charge and can barely hurt a basic dread and would have to smash an ironclad, thats not good for a 300pt monster, combine this with the no charge on the turn he lands from flying and its not looking good.
from the leaks the best things to beat deamons and nids is dreads and there equivilants, they should just walk though all mc's without much problem.
Furioso contemptor dread with blood claws.
Given prescience and some luck as you consolidate from unit to unit, you could probably rip and tear your way through most of a daemon or tyranid army with this one unit, though I'm sure eventually someone would get in a smash hit.
A regular furioso or black company dread could also do more or less the same, but only has AV12 and no fleet.
Skullhammer wrote: Try the thirster can get up to 11 attacks IF kitted and lucky enough on the charge and can barely hurt a basic dread and would have to smash an ironclad, thats not good for a 300pt monster, combine this with the no charge on the turn he lands from flying and its not looking good.
from the leaks the best things to beat deamons and nids is dreads and there equivilants, they should just walk though all mc's without much problem.
Furioso contemptor dread with blood claws.
Given prescience and some luck as you consolidate from unit to unit, you could probably rip and tear your way through most of a daemon or tyranid army with this one unit, though I'm sure eventually someone would get in a smash hit.
A regular furioso or black company dread could also do more or less the same, but only has AV12 and no fleet.
How are you consolidating from unit to unit?
Rumor has it that consolidating from combat into another unit is coming to 7th Edition.
obsidiankatana wrote: Dreadnoughts haven't been able to be fielded seriously all edition. Even if this is an overnerf, there's a part of me that says: enjoy your time on the bottom, MCs.
Have you met Carnifexes?
Thats the problem, this totally bones some are the more expensive nasty CCMCs but does little to nothing against other MCs
Riptides were never great in assault, getting bumped down to one attack wont limit their noticeably nasty CC ability much
Wraithknights and Wraithlords still wreck face in CC.
Exergy wrote: So everyone is saying that the new smash rule is only 1 attack at double strength, instead of half attacks.
This would make most walker pretty tough for a lot of MCs to dent. They have to hit with their 1 attack, then pen, which would normally be 3+ then 3+ with that one attack.
Maulerfiends have the 5++ helping them out a bit.
Maulerfiends have those magmacutters that give them extra hits against things they wound.
And they are fast, so they can actually chase down MCs that dont want to be in combat with them.
it's an idea isnt it?
Its an equal match now where as before the Mauler had no chance.
Let's not forget you're still hitting on 5's and striking last most of the time.
And S7-8 on MCs is easy for Chaos Daemons to get,can't comment on Tyranids.
Exergy wrote: So everyone is saying that the new smash rule is only 1 attack at double strength, instead of half attacks.
This would make most walker pretty tough for a lot of MCs to dent. They have to hit with their 1 attack, then pen, which would normally be 3+ then 3+ with that one attack.
Maulerfiends have the 5++ helping them out a bit.
Maulerfiends have those magmacutters that give them extra hits against things they wound.
And they are fast, so they can actually chase down MCs that dont want to be in combat with them.
it's an idea isnt it?
Its an equal match now where as before the Mauler had no chance.
Let's not forget you're still hitting on 5's and striking last most of the time.
And S7-8 on MCs is easy for Chaos Daemons to get,can't comment on Tyranids.
why hitting on 5s, did the WS chart change? It use to be that WS hit on 4s up to WS6.
Consolidating into combat has been debunked for a while.
A bloodthirster with a greater etherblade has 8 S8 attacks on the charge with one reroll. Anything short of an imperial knight still doesn't stand a chance.
Anyways, it seems that Be'Lakor is even moreso the king of the monsters. He can beat down anything (in 6th his armorbane was only a marginal improvement) and can get a 2+ cover save anywhere from jinking.
Exergy wrote: So everyone is saying that the new smash rule is only 1 attack at double strength, instead of half attacks.
This would make most walker pretty tough for a lot of MCs to dent. They have to hit with their 1 attack, then pen, which would normally be 3+ then 3+ with that one attack.
Maulerfiends have the 5++ helping them out a bit.
Maulerfiends have those magmacutters that give them extra hits against things they wound.
And they are fast, so they can actually chase down MCs that dont want to be in combat with them.
it's an idea isnt it?
Its an equal match now where as before the Mauler had no chance.
Let's not forget you're still hitting on 5's and striking last most of the time.
And S7-8 on MCs is easy for Chaos Daemons to get,can't comment on Tyranids.
why hitting on 5s, did the WS chart change? It use to be that WS hit on 4s up to WS6.
I guess I was assuming you were fighting a Bloodthirster or Daemon Prince but that was my assumption.
Would fair even better against anything WS6 or less.
Walkers didn't need a boost against mcs. This won't solve the problem with walkers, which is theyre terrible. Grenades hitting on normal ws and hull points made them largely pointless. Yay walkers are better vs bad mcs, useful.
Kirasu wrote: Walkers didn't need a boost against mcs. This won't solve the problem with walkers, which is theyre terrible. Grenades hitting on normal ws and hull points made them largely pointless. Yay walkers are better vs bad mcs, useful.
Walkers didn't need a boost against MCs so much as MCs didn't need to be universally good against most other units. The fact that the vehicle damage table shifted AND MCs are nerfed inadvertently brings walkers back into semi-relevance.
I once had this conversation with one of my best friends talking about how vehicles were simply too easily destroyed.
Essentially, we came to the conclusion that vehicles should only ever get destroyed by a Penetrating hit. Doesn't necessarily mean they blow up, especially with the new Chart for vehicle damage. Just means in order to fully destroy it, you will need to finish it off with a penetrating hit.
Example
A Land Raider has 4 hull points and takes 4 glancing hits
It is reduced to 1 hull point until it takes a penetrating hit in which case it is immediately destroyed as per the normal roll on the penetration chart, immediately applying any damage results and or explosions.
Kirasu wrote: Walkers didn't need a boost against mcs. This won't solve the problem with walkers, which is theyre terrible. Grenades hitting on normal ws and hull points made them largely pointless. Yay walkers are better vs bad mcs, useful.
Agreed, grenades are still really the main issue for Walkers. Some of the changes surrounding them have made them inadvertently better, but melee Walkers are still awful. Shame, too... I love Deff Dreads.
Agreed, grenades are still really the main issue for Walkers. Some of the changes surrounding them have made them inadvertently better, but melee Walkers are still awful. Shame, too... I love Deff Dreads.
Terrible against certain targets. Ironclads can still charge marines. Don't walk walkers into meltabombs, but now feel free to go headbutt a good chunk of MCs out there. Walking across the board even got easier, via vehicle damage chart changes. They're not stellar, and without the rulebook in-hand I can't make a definite call, but I feel secure in the rumors of putting one down without feeling like I'm cheating myself.
schadenfreude wrote: Wraithknights, NDK, and carnifax/crushing claw nids will be fine.
Furioso dreads just became viable.
Soul grinders became a really good deal.
Especially since Soul Grinders of Nurgle with Torrent are only 170 points. Things are beasts for what their point costs are.
Why run nurgle grinders with torrent though? They can't run if they are out of range, and can't overwatch (at least with the current rules) with those D3 flamer hits.
Nurgle grinders are best with phlegm imo, so they can sit behind cover and use their increased cover save.
Save the torrent grinders for slaanesh.
I love soul grinders, they were good before and the changes make them even better.
Still, the MC nerf might have been a little too hard. MCs don't generally have very high strength anymore, so they will struggle with armour. God help Nids vs Imperial Knights.
(Still, I wish the Wraithknight had received some kind of indirect nerf, I hate those guys).
To the OP; Yeah, walkers of all varieties are now in with a chance vs MCs.
I loved my maulerfiends before, but now they'll see a return to the field! Probably with magma cutters now instead of the lasher tendrils, which I used previously to reduce smashing MCs to 1 attack.
I wonder how attack-boosting things will work? Will a black mace prince get 1+d6 attacks? He might still be king of the battlefield, though still subject to instant death and being shot to hell.
"Hey, hey! I can fly 24' across the board and dish an unholy ammount of dakka at you! And you're hitting me on 6 - sure, you can ground me, but it's on a 1-2 and IF you hit. And you're also generally wounding on a 6+ with majority of your weapons cause we're all really tough! Oh, And we can also go flying again if you knock us out of the skyes! And we can also move 12' and charge at will! And you most likely won't kill us in mellee unless you have an uber-character with eternal warrior, good invuln and a ton of attacks that costs like this MC cause otherwise, your power fist sergeant will get challenged out. And we also wreck all vehicles with a ton of s10 ap2 attacks! Oh, i love this game!".
FMC were super-overpowered vs a large ammount of lists. Sure, if you play tau-dar, you don't care. But there are not only taudar around there. The problem is that stuff like talos and footslogging dp are getting even worse but when was the last time you've seen those anywayz?..
Walkers have gotten a well-desired buff. Even though, they're still quite fragile at range and haven't gotten better vs krak grenades mellee, they're not an auto-loose vs MC at least.
Two Carnifexes getting into combat will pretty much spell the end of AV14, non-super heavy vehicles. Trick is to get a pair of 3+ save 4 wound model across the table per hard target the enemy has. This is nothing new, very little has changed in that regard, except now we have no area cover to at least mitigate the incoming heavy weapons fire.
koooaei wrote: You mean C: FMC. You know, there are lots of other options in theese books. And stuff like carnifexes hasn't become a tiny bit worse.
I don't think you understand how big a deal the major nerfing to Smash attacks are to Codices that almost exclusively rely on Smash attacks to deal with heavy armour. Under the new rules it will take a Hive Tyrant with electroshock grubs 4 turns to kill a single uncontestable scoring Land Raider.
Pretty much the only Tyranid builds that will even have have a chance in the new system will all involve spamming Hive Crones and/or Carnifices, and I don't know about you but I find spamming 1-2 units to be possibly the least fun way to play 40k outside of fighting a Revenant Titan.
Daemons are looking like they'll have it even worse, since they don't have the same access to Haywire and high Strength MCs.
"Hey, hey! I can fly 24' across the board and dish an unholy ammount of dakka at you! And you're hitting me on 6 - sure, you can ground me, but it's on a 1-2 and IF you hit. And you're also generally wounding on a 6+ with majority of your weapons cause we're all really tough! Oh, And we can also go flying again if you knock us out of the skyes! And we can also move 12' and charge at will! And you most likely won't kill us in mellee unless you have an uber-character with eternal warrior, good invuln and a ton of attacks that costs like this MC cause otherwise, your power fist sergeant will get challenged out. And we also wreck all vehicles with a ton of s10 ap2 attacks! Oh, i love this game!".
FMC were super-overpowered vs a large ammount of lists. Sure, if you play tau-dar, you don't care. But there are not only taudar around there. The problem is that stuff like talos and footslogging dp are getting even worse but when was the last time you've seen those anywayz?..
Walkers have gotten a well-desired buff. Even though, they're still quite fragile at range and haven't gotten better vs krak grenades mellee, they're not an auto-loose vs MC at least.
Tyranids, Knarlocs, Squiggoths, my beloved Canoptek Stalkers, and Khorne suffer needlessly for the excesses of other armies.
Now I pay 200+ points for a Trygon who can't clear out hordes for want of weight of attacks or broodability, lacks the invulnerable saves, WS, or instant death to truly compete against other melee monster MCs of it's price, and is now crap against vehicles.
Meanwhile the Riptide and Wraithknight hardly notice as the riptide only had two smash hits out of a charge anyway and the Wraithknight is already punching at S10.
koooaei wrote: Well, previously they were over the top - that's for sure.
Do they still get a bonus charge attack?
From what everyone with the book is saying, nope.
They get 1 Smash Attack. Doesn't matter of your Trygon has 5 attacks +1 for 2 weapons and +1 for charging, it only gets 1 attack if it actually wants to dent high AV.
koooaei wrote: Well, previously they were over the top - that's for sure.
Do they still get a bonus charge attack?
The problem in that trying (and largely failing, Iron arm and greater etherblades are still a thing for Princes, the LoC has his boomstick and I already talked about the WK and Riptide, and the DK also doesn't give a damn) to nerf the most egregiously abused MCs they have also taken away the teeth from the much more reasonably designed monstrous creatures.
The new rules hurt the likes of Trygons far more than Wraithknights.
Seems, you'll have to find other sources of mellee anti-tank. Things happen. 6 ed came and made a greentide with a kan wall invalid. Walkers on the whole have become plain useless unless it's something like a dual-flamer ironclad in a pod. While FMC have become super-useful. Now 7 ed comes in and buffs walkers a bit and nerfs MC hard.
I see your point with Wraithknights. It's just plain hard to bring in a universal rule to simultaniously nerf the over-the top stuff and buff underpowered stuff. WK are just broken from the start. So is FMC spam. New rules just scream for more tac lists for both daemons and tyranids. From an opposing player's perspective i can tell you for sure that facing FMC spam is at the same fun level as facing a revenant titan in 6-th. My games vs FMC spam were alwayz like this:
Option 1.
Enemy moves thoughtlessly full speed at me shooting everything and gaining first blood. I HAVE to move everything as close as possible to FMC in hopes of ground and assault. If i don't ground enough - it's auto-loose. If i ground enough, i have chances of tarpitting them and even kill over like 2 full turns but my pk nobz are alwayz useless and a waste of points.
Option 2. Enemy moves a bit more strategically sticking a tiny part of his FMC's base in area terrain. It eventually comes to option 1 after a turn or two.
koooaei wrote: You mean C: FMC. You know, there are lots of other options in theese books. And stuff like carnifexes hasn't become a tiny bit worse.
I don't think you understand how big a deal the major nerfing to Smash attacks are to Codices that almost exclusively rely on Smash attacks to deal with heavy armour. Under the new rules it will take a Hive Tyrant with electroshock grubs 4 turns to kill a single uncontestable scoring Land Raider.
Pretty much the only Tyranid builds that will even have have a chance in the new system will all involve spamming Hive Crones and/or Carnifices, and I don't know about you but I find spamming 1-2 units to be possibly the least fun way to play 40k outside of fighting a Revenant Titan.
Daemons are looking like they'll have it even worse, since they don't have the same access to Haywire and high Strength MCs.
Daemons still have quite a few options at their disposal. Soul grinders, newly buffed flaming chariots, armourbane in the greater rewards, Tzeentch psychic powers, iron-armed DPs/ GUO. Not to mention nurgle units taking off hull points with glancing hits.
Its just not going to be as easy as it used to be.
koooaei wrote: Seems, you'll have to find other sources of mellee anti-tank.
Crushing claws and Carnifexes (preferably carnifexes with crushing claws).
Which anyone with half a brain can avoid as none of them can get any movement options better than fleet.
ALL ABOARD THE MONOBUILD TRAIN GUYS.
DESTINATION: PSYCHIC CHOIRS TO NOT GET SCREWED BY ENEMY PSYKERS BUT CERTAINLY NOT FOR BUFFS, DEBUFFS, AND ATTACKS BECAUSE YOU DON'T ACTUALLY HAVE GOOD POWERS COMPARED TO THE BRB OR ELDAR, SKYBLIGHT SWARMS THAT ONLY EVER SHOOT BECAUSE MELEENIDS ARE BLASPHEMOUS TO OUR GW OVERLORDS, AND CARNIFEX SPAM.
NOW LEAVING: ANY HOPE OF ACTUALLY HAVING FUN WITH YOUR TYRANID ARMY IN A COMPETITIVE SETTING.
I'm so fething impressed.
Making an edition that does nothing to help the armies that actually need it (or making them actually worse in some cases) while doing little to hurt the Eldar, Imperial Guard, and (not-Khorne) Daemons and bringing back the spectre of 5e grey knights, giving Imperial players more choices then they can handle while telling Xenos (unless they like Elves) and Chaos Space marine players they can go get fethed.
BRAVO GW, TRULY YOU ARE THE EPITOME OF COMPETENCE. I SALUTE YOU.
Wait, no that's sarcasm, GW is subsapient scum and no one in the design team or leadership deserves to ever touch the game industry again.
In all seriousness, you still have other stuff and you can more reliably stay into air to dakka the hell out of vehicle's rear armor with your 1 million twinlinked devourers.
koooaei wrote: Seems, you'll have to find other sources of mellee anti-tank.
Crushing claws and Carnifexes (preferably carnifexes with crushing claws).
Which anyone with half a brain can avoid as none of them can get any movement options better than fleet.
ALL ABOARD THE MONOBUILD TRAIN GUYS.
DESTINATION: PSYCHIC CHOIRS TO NOT GET SCREWED BY ENEMY PSYKERS BUT CERTAINLY NOT FOR BUFFS, DEBUFFS, AND ATTACKS BECAUSE YOU DON'T ACTUALLY HAVE GOOD POWERS COMPARED TO THE BRB OR ELDAR, SKYBLIGHT SWARMS THAT ONLY EVER SHOOT BECAUSE MELEENIDS ARE BLASPHEMOUS TO OUR GW OVERLORDS, AND CARNIFEX SPAM.
NOW LEAVING: ANY HOPE OF ACTUALLY HAVING FUN WITH YOUR TYRANID ARMY IN A COMPETITIVE SETTING.
I'm so fething impressed.
Making an edition that does nothing to help the armies that actually need it (or making them actually worse in some cases) while doing little to hurt the Eldar, Imperial Guard, and (not-Khorne) Daemons and bringing back the spectre of 5e grey knights, giving Imperial players more choices then they can handle while telling Xenos (unless they like Elves) and Chaos Space marine players they can go get fethed.
BRAVO GW, TRULY YOU ARE THE EPITOME OF COMPETENCE. I SALUTE YOU.
Wait, no that's sarcasm, GW is subsapient scum and no one in the design team or leadership deserves to ever touch the game industry again.
You've just got desperately panicked. All's not that bad. Come on, we've managed to go through 6 ed with orkses. We'll handle this too.
In all seriousness, you still have other stuff and you can more reliably stay into air to dakka the hell out of vehicle's rear armor with your 1 million twinlinked devourers.
HEY GUYS, LET'S MAKE GROUND POUNDING ASSAULT TYRANIDS MORE AND MORE OF A JOKE EVERY EDITION. IT WILL BE AWESOME I SWEAR.
LET'S ALSO MAKE THE MOST VARIABLE AND ADAPTABLE ARMY IN FLUFF ONE OF THE MOST RIGID AND UNFLEXIBLE IN THE ACTUAL GAME.
AND JUST TO PISS THEM OFF, MAKE SURE ANY OF THE LORDS OF WAR WHO AREN'T FLYING ARE TERRIBLE COMPARED TO ANYONE WITH A D-WEAPON.
CLEARLY WE, GW, ARE FAULTLESS GENIUSES AND DESERVE TO KEEP OUR JOBS.
Actually, many MC are s6 or 7. That's pretty solid vs av10 rear armor as it is. How many av14 rear vehicles are there? Landraider and monolyth. Well i'd be damned if it's right: "I can't kill a landraider in a single turn with any random MC. This game is FREAKING UNBALLANCED".
koooaei wrote: Actually, many MC are s6 or 7. That's pretty solid vs av10 rear armor as it is. How many av14 rear vehicles are there? Landraider and monolyth. Well i'd be damned: "I can't kill a landraider in a single turn. This game is FREAKING UNBALLANCED".
Implying that someone is going to let you get into assault with a vehicle they don't want to be in assault without doing everything in their power to make that a non-possibility is a silly idea.
There's a reason why shooting has been the main method to crack open vehicles for a Tyranid list for two editions.
This just means that now the Tyranids now can trust nothing but shooting to defeat mech lists.
Unless you want to blow 600+ points on a triple carnifex brood, crushing claw tyrant guards+meleerant, or crushing claw/rending claw warriors, just to ensure that someone gets into assault.
You know because GW wants to make sure the only way Tyranids can be competetive is to buy expensive new models, dataslates, forgeworld, and supplements.
Feth GW and feth the Horse it rode on and feth everyone in that company with any input into how the game is designed.
I'm not going to tournaments or playing non-homebrew games anymore, I'm tired of this bs.
Tyranids still have haywire missile flyers, zoanthrope str 10 lances and carnifex. The smash change hurt the Flyrant. trygon and the other FMCs.
Competitive tyranids already made some use of the flyer with haywire missiles, and zoanthropes are a staple of many armies. Again the changes hit some builds hard, but there are still some options. It may alter the overall positioning of the armies, though all should still be usable.
Overall I like the direction of the smash changes, it was bad having any MC in the game able to rip apart my landraider like a tin can. Still, I feel some MCs need to be buffed to match walkers in cc and be able to combat armour. The trygon comes to mind. Twice the height of a dreadnought, but only slightly over half the strength.
Edit:
Implying that someone is going to let you get into assault with a vehicle they don't want to be in assault without doing everything in their power to make that a non-possibility is a silly idea.
Well, it certainly is now that FMCs cannot charge after changing flight mode. Before it was actually quite doable.
koooaei wrote: Actually, many MC are s6 or 7. That's pretty solid vs av10 rear armor as it is. How many av14 rear vehicles are there? Landraider and monolyth. Well i'd be damned: "I can't kill a landraider in a single turn. This game is FREAKING UNBALLANCED".
Implying that someone is going to let you get into assault with a vehicle they don't want to be in assault without doing everything in their power to make that a non-possibility is a silly idea.
There's a reason why shooting has been the main method to crack open vehicles for a Tyranid list for two editions.
So what's the point of all that desperation with a mellee nerf if there's 'no mellee' anywayz? You've got a buff that you're way harder to ground and it only happens at the end of the phase, so you get to be snap-shot at for the whole phase. Making non-skyfire weaponry even more useless vs your FMC. You've just got a huge durability buff and you're not happy. In exchange they've just taken away the omnipotent possibility of reliably killing anything you want whenever you want as it was previously. That's good game design actually.
koooaei wrote: Actually, many MC are s6 or 7. That's pretty solid vs av10 rear armor as it is. How many av14 rear vehicles are there? Landraider and monolyth. Well i'd be damned: "I can't kill a landraider in a single turn. This game is FREAKING UNBALLANCED".
Implying that someone is going to let you get into assault with a vehicle they don't want to be in assault without doing everything in their power to make that a non-possibility is a silly idea.
There's a reason why shooting has been the main method to crack open vehicles for a Tyranid list for two editions.
So what's the point of all that desperation with a mellee nerf if there's 'no mellee' anywayz? You've got a buff that you're way harder to ground and it only happens at the end of the phase, so you get to be snap-shot at for the whole phase. Making non-skyfire weaponry even more useless vs your FMC.
Maybe I want to run a ground pounding monster mash or a gaunt swarm rather than the same pile of gargoyles, crones, harpies, and Tyrants with maybe some biovores, zoanthropes, and carnifexes.
Maybe I want to use a warrior or genestealer heavy list and still have as good a chance of winning as Skyblight swarm spam.
Perhaps I'd actually like to use rippers, or a Subterranean horde of monstrosities.
Sometimes, I might just want to play with Swarmlordzilla.
Often I'd like a melee tyrant to actually be scary in melee.
Usually, I rather like the idea of a Tyrannofex not being a glorified hellhound, a poor man's punisher, or super size me Hive guard.
Maybe I want to run a mutable army with a vast number of options for mutations and biomorphs.
I'd even like to have more than one god damn table of psychic powers to choose from like everyone else with psykers.
Hell, I'd love to play rain of spore pod armies.
I'd like to think that bio-artefacts are even vaguely comparable to space marine (of any variety) or Daemon toys. Hell even Eldar or Guard level would be nice.
Perhaps I'd like my Heirophant to actually be competetive with a Reaver or Phantom titan.
I'd rather my Heirodule not be overpriced garbage.
BUT NOOOOOPE.
I've had it.
Maybe the next Tyranid codex will be better but feth it, I'm tired of having my chains yanked.
In all seriousness, you still have other stuff and you can more reliably stay into air to dakka the hell out of vehicle's rear armor with your 1 million twinlinked devourers.
You see, my opponents aren't incompetent, and understand how to put their vehicle's rear arcs against the edge of the table or terrain, so that's not very helpful.
Kain, just run what you want. I wanted to run a greentide in 6 ed and i did it. People wanted to run many walkers and they did it. Why wouldn't you run what you want?
In all seriousness, you still have other stuff and you can more reliably stay into air to dakka the hell out of vehicle's rear armor with your 1 million twinlinked devourers.
You see, my opponents aren't incompetent, and understand how to put their vehicle's rear arcs against the edge of the table or terrain, so that's not very helpful.
It doesn't matter in mellee. And if they put their stuff in some particular places - they loose mobility. Previously vehicles were just almost auto-destroyed with MC no matter what you do. Don't you think it's not really great? Yep, maybe the nerf's too harsh but i find it to be better than it was previously.
koooaei wrote: Kain, just run what you want. I wanted to run a greentide in 6 ed and i did it. People wanted to run many walkers and they did it. Why wouldn't you run what you want?
In all seriousness, you still have other stuff and you can more reliably stay into air to dakka the hell out of vehicle's rear armor with your 1 million twinlinked devourers.
You see, my opponents aren't incompetent, and understand how to put their vehicle's rear arcs against the edge of the table or terrain, so that's not very helpful.
It doesn't matter in mellee. And if they put their stuff in some particular places - they loose mobility.
Because I like to feel that I'm not just going to be canon fodder for other people to kill or have the lingering sensation that I'm being punished for my choice in armies.
And I'd also like to not reward GW for screwing over an entire army for three editions straight.
No, no I think my way of custom rules and homebrew with friends, relatives, friends of relatives, relatives of friends, and friends of friends is better for my stress levels.
Because I like to feel that I'm not just going to be canon fodder for other people to kill or have the lingering sensation that I'm being punished for my choice in armies.
And I'd also like to not reward GW for screwing over an entire army for three editions straight.
No, no I think my way of custom rules and homebrew with friends, relatives, friends of relatives, relatives of friends, and friends of friends is better for my stress levels.
Homebrewing is a way to go either.
You think you'll get screwed just cause of smash attacks? You mean tyranids have only 1 real option to only spam MC with smash attacks or autoloose? Than the codex is screwed before the update anywayz.
Because I like to feel that I'm not just going to be canon fodder for other people to kill or have the lingering sensation that I'm being punished for my choice in armies.
And I'd also like to not reward GW for screwing over an entire army for three editions straight.
No, no I think my way of custom rules and homebrew with friends, relatives, friends of relatives, relatives of friends, and friends of friends is better for my stress levels.
Homebrewing is a way to go either. Anywayz, you think you'll get screwed just cause of smash attacks? You mean tyranids have only 1 real option to only spam MC or autoloose? Than the codex is screwed before the update anywayz.
The new Tyranid codex was nearly universally regarded as terrible and coincided with a substantial drop in GW stock prices after it's release.
In other words it was so bad it substantially hurt GW as a company.
I was hoping that it would all be better in 7e but clearly it's intended to just be a vehicle to sell a certain few Tyranid models while making the models few people are interested in buying more of too competitively poor to keep on using to encourage people to shelve them and get the new flavour of the codex.
Nids players should wait to panic until after their FAQ comes out.
The big thing I am wondering is how shadow of the warp will work. All it would take to make a flyrant useful again is if shadow gives a -3 to leadership tests and allows units to DTW against all powers cast while in shadows.
schadenfreude wrote: Nids players should wait to panic until after their FAQ comes out.
The big thing I am wondering is how shadow of the warp will work. All it would take to make a flyrant useful again is if shadow gives a -3 to leadership tests and allows units to DTW against all powers cast while in shadows.
Not sure how a FAQ can change things without giving Tyranids a bevy of special rules, stat changes and exceptions. Essentially a full on Errata.
Rule clarifications at this point can't really help too much. SitW changes can only help so much and even if tyranids got BRB powers again it would still be largely be just putting bandages on a necrotized wound,
It's not, but I think Kain's point is more that Tyranids have been hurt, once again, for absolutely no reason. It really doesn't seem to end. Other armies get buffed and nerfed and buffed and nerfed, but Tyranids just seem to always get punished for existing, especially because they're supposed to do melee well but melee is consistently made worse.
It's rather telling if you consider how MCs are regarded as very powerful in this edition, and yet Tyranids (theMC army) are still incredibly sub-par. Everyone else's Monstrous Creatures (most of which are actually robots and not creatures at all) are far superior to the army composed entirely of literal monstrous creatures.
koooaei wrote: Seems, you'll have to find other sources of mellee anti-tank.
Crushing claws and Carnifexes (preferably carnifexes with crushing claws).
Which anyone with half a brain can avoid as none of them can get any movement options better than fleet.
Spoiler:
ALL ABOARD THE MONOBUILD TRAIN GUYS.
DESTINATION: PSYCHIC CHOIRS TO NOT GET SCREWED BY ENEMY PSYKERS BUT CERTAINLY NOT FOR BUFFS, DEBUFFS, AND ATTACKS BECAUSE YOU DON'T ACTUALLY HAVE GOOD POWERS COMPARED TO THE BRB OR ELDAR, SKYBLIGHT SWARMS THAT ONLY EVER SHOOT BECAUSE MELEENIDS ARE BLASPHEMOUS TO OUR GW OVERLORDS, AND CARNIFEX SPAM.
NOW LEAVING: ANY HOPE OF ACTUALLY HAVING FUN WITH YOUR TYRANID ARMY IN A COMPETITIVE SETTING.
I'm so fething impressed.
Making an edition that does nothing to help the armies that actually need it (or making them actually worse in some cases) while doing little to hurt the Eldar, Imperial Guard, and (not-Khorne) Daemons and bringing back the spectre of 5e grey knights, giving Imperial players more choices then they can handle while telling Xenos (unless they like Elves) and Chaos Space marine players they can go get fethed.
BRAVO GW, TRULY YOU ARE THE EPITOME OF COMPETENCE. I SALUTE YOU.
Wait, no that's sarcasm, GW is subsapient scum and no one in the design team or leadership deserves to ever touch the game industry again.
Hey man, I'm sorry about the nerfs. It really did hurt Trigons and non-flyrants pretty handily, and they didn't really deserve it.
That said, stop being such a ponce about it. Ork players like myself managed to weather the gak-storm which was 6th edition with an ancient army book and literally every part of our army nerfed via the new edition rules. That's not even mentioning crap like flyings being introduced and other stuff to kick us in the groin.
We get it. You're upset; something you had -was- broken and got nerfed, but it also messed with several things which weren't really problematic. You do, however, still have options. Stop crying, you're not the first codex to ever get nerfed.
That said, stop being such a ponce about it. Ork players like myself managed to weather the gak-storm which was 6th edition with an ancient army book and literally every part of our army nerfed via the new edition rules. That's not even mentioning crap like flyings being introduced and other stuff to kick us in the groin.
EDIT: Clarity.
In all fairness, our lootas got a bit better and biker nobz a lot better with new fnp and no t4(5). Wagon rush got an indirect buff due to meta change to s7 spam and Hullpoint system that's somewhat ballanced out with a s4 on explosions and no disembark after moving 12, though flatout was handy. Also meganobz got a chance to see the board. But everything else...yep.
But i'm pointing out that tyranids didn't get only nerfs with this new edition. Dakka flyrants are sufficiently harder to kill now. Consolidating from combat to combat will help either.
Lets all bitch about how our MC spam cant any longer jump instantly from "lol, cant touch me" to "bham, smash your face" with no chance of opponent to even respond to it, and the fact there are a whole 2 high-cost tanks in the game that are not istantly killed by the cheapest of MCs any more.
Its not like ripper swarms are now scoring, and securing, or that every damn fearless troop in the army (synapse enabled, or on its own) is securing, including the "i wish i could play genestealers instead of skyblight" (really man? they got the SAME ability now!), the fact that the all-important dominion is now free for every single nid psyker on top of his rolls, or that you actually still CAN invest in CC units, rather then buy shooter units that still brake apart dedicated CC units in CC.
Oh no, just spamming flyrant wont insta-kill everything now. how sad. so what? they were among the most annoying armies in 6th, and you KNOW it, and guess what-the other annoying lists? GOT HIT TOO. ALL OF THEM, AND HARDER.
That said, stop being such a ponce about it. Ork players like myself managed to weather the gak-storm which was 6th edition with an ancient army book and literally every part of our army nerfed via the new edition rules. That's not even mentioning crap like flyings being introduced and other stuff to kick us in the groin.
EDIT: Clarity.
In all fairness, our lootas got a bit better and biker nobz a lot better with new fnp and no t4(5). Wagon rush got an indirect buff due to meta change to s7 spam and Hullpoint system that's somewhat ballanced out with a s4 on explosions and no disembark after moving 12, though flatout was handy. Also meganobz got a chance to see the board. But everything else...yep.
But i'm pointing out that tyranids didn't get only nerfs with this new edition. Dakka flyrants are sufficiently harder to kill now. Consolidating from combat to combat will help either.
You're right; I forgot about Meganobz. They -did- get a substantial buff what with not always being in difficult terrain. On the point with Biker Nobz, how did they get buffed again? I skipped 5th edition (not by choice; but I hate green-tide anyway, so I don't seem to have missed much) so I was under the impression FNP actually got nerfed on the way to 6th.
EDIT: I don't really count battlewagons. Meta-shifts don't constitute book related buffs, so I don't want to include them. It's also my understanding that vehicles were substantially harder to reliably destroy in 5th, given they couldn't be glanced to death. So I disagree with that point.
That said, stop being such a ponce about it. Ork players like myself managed to weather the gak-storm which was 6th edition with an ancient army book and literally every part of our army nerfed via the new edition rules. That's not even mentioning crap like flyings being introduced and other stuff to kick us in the groin.
EDIT: Clarity.
In all fairness, our lootas got a bit better and biker nobz a lot better with new fnp and no t4(5). Wagon rush got an indirect buff due to meta change to s7 spam and Hullpoint system that's somewhat ballanced out with a s4 on explosions and no disembark after moving 12, though flatout was handy. Also meganobz got a chance to see the board. But everything else...yep.
But i'm pointing out that tyranids didn't get only nerfs with this new edition. Dakka flyrants are sufficiently harder to kill now. Consolidating from combat to combat will help either.
You're right; I forgot about Meganobz. They -did- get a substantial buff what with not always being in difficult terrain. On the point with Biker Nobz, how did they get buffed again? I skipped 5th edition (not by choice; but I hate green-tide anyway, so I don't seem to have missed much) so I was under the impression FNP actually got nerfed on the way to 6th.
EDIT: I don't really count battlewagons. Meta-shifts don't constitute book related buffs, so I don't want to include them. It's also my understanding that vehicles were substantially harder to reliably destroy in 5th, given they couldn't be glanced to death. So I disagree with that point.
Not only not-alwayz-in-dt buff but power weapons change made them even viable sometimes. Also, it's somewhat fun, but mellee nerf made mellee meganobz better. You don't see a power fist or even a power axe on every second sergeant now.
FNP got better in my opinion cause it became usable all the time except for instant death weapons. If previously you were hit with a power weapon - nope, no fnp. Plazmagun - nope, no fnp. Your nob biker is hit with a missile - nope, no fnp and insta-death on your 50+ pt 2-wound model with a 4+ cover. Basically, it was useful vs small-arms and mid-str fire. Mid-str was not very common and small arms allready had issues with passing t5. Now you can take 5+ fnp in all situations except for s10 hits which are not common and force weapons - not very common either. 4+ cover or armor and 5+ fnp makes nob'z save basically 3++ which is huge.
About wagonz. Even if you don't consider meta changes, hullpoint glance system made wagonz way better. If previously, a glance had 1/6 chance to stun, 1/6 chance to immobilize and 1/6 chance to wreck you emidiately - which is 1/2 to stop a wagon full of boyz, now it's just a hp strip off a 4 HP vehicle.
I'm liking the downgrade of smash, MC's were too much of an answer to everything. now nid players have a reason to take carnifexen as CC monsters (remember? the nid monsters dedicated to ripping tanks apart once upon a time?) instead of just bringing monsters with various increases to their attacks which meant smash dropped them down to 2 attacks, then they got D3 for claws and 1 for charging and ended up losing 1 attack and gaining 4 strength.
it's a shame it's not unwieldy. rearing up for a dramatic attack should leave you open for a few stab wounds first. at least they aren't amazing against characters any more though!
But the thread here is not bout orkses And not even about tyranids
It's about regular walkers becoming better to the point of seeing the board from time to time. And it's a really good thing! Finally, blackreach dreadnaughts will be used a bit. Walkers got awesome models and it's a cool concept on the whole. Right way to go imo. They also need hammer of wraith and move through cover imo.
koooaei wrote: Well, you could alwayz go with a cheap fearless swarm with shrowded. Smash nerf is not the end of the world, eh.
Ok, sure, let's go swarm.
I now have an entire army incapable of hurting the scoring vehicles my opponent has, supported by a small number of fragile Synapse creatures. Plus, when those creatures die, my entire army starts running off the board and killing each other.
Its not like ripper swarms are now scoring, and securing, or that every damn fearless troop in the army (synapse enabled, or on its own) is securing, including the "i wish i could play genestealers instead of skyblight" (really man? they got the SAME ability now!), the fact that the all-important dominion is now free for every single nid psyker on top of his rolls, or that you actually still CAN invest in CC units, rather then buy shooter units that still brake apart dedicated CC units in CC.
I'm sorry, did I miss the bit where Rippers and Genstealers suddenly dropped in points?
Free Dominion on everything is a nice little buff, but at the same time it now takes 3 warp charges to reliably use Dominion instead of 1.
Oh no, just spamming flyrant wont insta-kill everything now. how sad. so what? they were among the most annoying armies in 6th, and you KNOW it, and guess what-the other annoying lists? GOT HIT TOO. ALL OF THEM, AND HARDER.
Actually, spamming FMCs got a lot easier with the new FOC rules, and now they're a lot more durable and can all score while gliding. I'm not complaining about nerfs to FMCs because they got arguably stronger, I'm complaining about all the other MCs I like to field, as a non-spammer, being horribly nerfed, as if GW wants me to just spam the hell out of FMCs.
koooaei wrote: Actually, many MC are s6 or 7. That's pretty solid vs av10 rear armor as it is. How many av14 rear vehicles are there? Landraider and monolyth. Well i'd be damned if it's right: "I can't kill a landraider in a single turn with any random MC. This game is FREAKING UNBALLANCED".
It's not just Land Raiders - we're going to have a serious issue with AV13 walkers or high toughness MCs like Wraithknights. S6 just doesn't cut it there, and of course all of those will get to attack before a melee Carnifex.
You're complaining about walkers beigh buffed in mellee?.. In all fairness, walkers are supposed to be on par with the toughest monsters fluffwise. Wraithknights are as broken as they were before - nothing changes here.
Skullhammer wrote: Try the thirster can get up to 11 attacks IF kitted and lucky enough on the charge and can barely hurt a basic dread and would have to smash an ironclad, thats not good for a 300pt monster, combine this with the no charge on the turn he lands from flying and its not looking good.
from the leaks the best things to beat deamons and nids is dreads and there equivilants, they should just walk though all mc's without much problem.
koooaei wrote: You're complaining about walkers beigh buffed in mellee?.. In all fairness, walkers are supposed to be on par with the toughest monsters fluffwise. Wraithknights are as broken as they were before - nothing changes here.
Walkers haven't been buffed in melee, they're just as pathetic against Krak grenade wielding Tactical Squads as ever.
MCs have just been nerfed (apart from Wraithknights, of course).
Skullhammer wrote: Try the thirster can get up to 11 attacks IF kitted and lucky enough on the charge and can barely hurt a basic dread and would have to smash an ironclad, thats not good for a 300pt monster, combine this with the no charge on the turn he lands from flying and its not looking good.
from the leaks the best things to beat deamons and nids is dreads and there equivilants, they should just walk though all mc's without much problem.
how are you getting 11 attacks on a thirster?
but yes, its a Nerf to mc, but they're not dead!
6 base +d3 exhalted axe +1 two specil weapons +1 charge. If hes out numbered he could have rampage as well but you get no defencive bonuses.
"Hey, hey! I can fly 24' across the board and dish an unholy ammount of dakka at you! And you're hitting me on 6 - sure, you can ground me, but it's on a 1-2 and IF you hit. And you're also generally wounding on a 6+ with majority of your weapons cause we're all really tough! Oh, And we can also go flying again if you knock us out of the skyes! And we can also move 12' and charge at will! And you most likely won't kill us in mellee unless you have an uber-character with eternal warrior, good invuln and a ton of attacks that costs like this MC cause otherwise, your power fist sergeant will get challenged out. And we also wreck all vehicles with a ton of s10 ap2 attacks! Oh, i love this game!".
FMC were super-overpowered vs a large ammount of lists. Sure, if you play tau-dar, you don't care. But there are not only taudar around there. The problem is that stuff like talos and footslogging dp are getting even worse but when was the last time you've seen those anywayz?..
Walkers have gotten a well-desired buff. Even though, they're still quite fragile at range and haven't gotten better vs krak grenades mellee, they're not an auto-loose vs MC at least.
koooaei wrote: You're complaining about walkers beigh buffed in mellee?.. In all fairness, walkers are supposed to be on par with the toughest monsters fluffwise. Wraithknights are as broken as they were before - nothing changes here.
I'd rather Walkers be buffed than Monsters be nerfed.
Buffing weak units to match strong ones generally upsets less people than bringing strong units down to weak levels.
And the Tyranids have hovered atlow tier just as the Orks have.
5e was terrible for the Tyranids as many can remember. Before the Crudex Tyranid lists mostly focused on the Carnifex stampede first and foremost and usually got a good Hive Tyrant build going with the wide array of options available for making a Hive Tyrant, thenyou could more or less fill in whatever you wanted, most of the 4e codex was pretty good and even the monster mash lists of the time weren't completely needed. Lictors and Warriors were still decent and Gaunts could respawn to ensure you had your scoring capability secured. The unit variety was a bit small back then but things were good for the time. Most Tyranid players were fairly satisfied with the book which was seen as an overall improvement over the 3e book, but generally your 3e army was good for the 4e codex, and the 4e codex was passable enough in 5e.
Then the 2010 codex book came essentially forced everyone to start over. All the statline altering mutations disappeared, the massive number of options for a lot of units were stripped away entirely, and a great deal of characterful rules were stripped away. Old standbys like Lictors, Warriors, Hormagaunts, and Carnifexes were promptly nerfed and nerfed hard. Instead a splurge of new units of which only a few were truly good were introduced. The Hive Guard/Zoanthrope (the debates on which was better were pretty intense, but the consensus was that the Hive Guard was what you wanted if you mostly faced AV12 and under and the Zoanthrope would be best for when you mostly saw AV13 and 14) and Tervigon became mandatory if you wanted to win in highly competetive settings, though the Genestealer outflanking list was a common (if not quite as good) alternative.
The Trygon shoved the Carnifex to the side so GW could hawk a freakishly big (for the time) model they cannibalized from Forgeworld, and the Ymgarl genestealer promptly stole the Lictor's old assault rules. Overnight the majority of armies used with the last book were suddenly now outright invalid or garbage. To say the new codex was hated was an understatement. It's crunch was disliked and it's fluff was clearly written by someone who had no interest in the army as all the characterful in universe narratives and short stories were stripped out for an incredibly boringly written beige prose parade of defeat after defeat for the ostensible stars of the codex.
For two years, Tyranids suffered with what was widely regarded as the worst codex of 5e and hung at the low tiers with the old Tau, the Black Templars, the Sisters of Battle, and the old Eldar staring enviously at those with better books, for a time they also shared that spot with the Dark Eldar and Necrons, but both armies got massive and highly successful reboots that shot them up many tiers. Then 6e came out.
The already nerfed and price hiked Carnifex got even worse with the loss of armorbane for MCs (as it was already S9, Smash was essentially worthless for it), and other than Dakkafexes, was promptly consigned to the dustbin now that any other TMC could do it's job while still being more cost efficient (by the 5e book's standards, which isn't saying much.) The Genestealer, which once offered an alternative troop build to Tervigon spam, was also the victim of unseemly nerfs as it got the worst out of 6e's assault nerfs, and so was also forgotten in comp-builds. The armored shell Tyrant was immediately outshined by the Flyrant and was also relegated to semi-comp lists. Hormagaunts suffered even more, and to add insult to injury Chaos cultists were introduced and found able to do much of the same job or even better for the same cost, or even less cost.
The Swarmlord went from a potent if hampered by lack of EWSC to a monster when people found what he could do with Biomancy, but you had to have more Flyrants if you wanted to have a chance in Ace Combat 40k, so the Swarmlord was mostly something of a gimmick, and because of how slow he was he was pretty easy to adjust to unlike the current ridiculous HQ monsters going around. Biovores got favoured by the meta-shift, but overall you could feel that there was somehow even less viable options then there used to be. It was now mostly a Flyrant, Zoanthrope, and Tervigon spam show, though many found the Ymgarl genestealer still good, and fast attack offered harpies for more FMCs or gargoyles for cheap annoyances, the HS slot saw the Biovore become more popular, the Trygon remained a good enough deal, the Mawloc was liked by some, and some people liked Dakkafexes and Tyrannofexes.
Then escalation came out and Tyranid players quickly realized to their horror that their Lords of War, long in need of an update; had very little about them fixed, while the changes to D-weapons and the clarification that yes, Gargantuan flying creatures can be grounded, informed us that Tyranid lords of war were now in a very bad place. From Heirodules who struggled with Darnath Lysander to Harridans getting zapped down by lasguns to Heirophants getting blown away by Warhound titans half their points cost, Escalation and the new Apocalypse rules were the first of bad tidings. There was also stronghold assault but the Tyranids could barely afford to fit them in and they clashed with the Tyranid's playstyle, so it was instead mostly used by the enemies of the Tyranids to induce new headaches.
Then the new codex came out. All those biomancy reliant builds? As completely and utterly invalidated as those builds made with the 4e codex became when the 5e book was released. The Swarmlord instantly fell from favor, the Tyranid Prime was crippled with a price hike without the slightest of buffs, the Ymgarl genestealer, Mycetic spore, Doom of Malan'tai, and Parasite of Mortex were outright removed from the book (the spore removal in particular invalidated a vast number of builds and essentially meant that the Tyranids had no choice but to footslog their terribly squishy army), units that relied on the spores instantly got worse, Zoanthropes and Hive Guard were hit with a hard nerf, the Tervigon was made next to unaffordable in most lists, and there was a definite feel that GW wanted you to ditch your old army and buy all these shiny new FMCs. The Carnifex also got better, but it was small comfort for yet another codex essentially crushing all the hopes and dreams of Tyranid players for actual improvement over the last book. And the fluff was still awful because it was all the same fluff except with a new Tyranid vs Daemons story written in the same boring prose.
The Formations came out, and then many felt like the Formations were essentially a money grabbing scheme so that Tyranid players who want to be competetive or have a fun and flavourful army that actually felt like a Tyranid force would have to buy it in 10-15 dollar packets. It was greed in the worst way. It was GW indulging in what everyone was afraid they'd start doing once Supplements and Dataslates became a major feature of 40k: Pay to Win DLC add ons. And suspiciously, most of the best Formations also happened to be the ones that forced you to buy the new models. A double whammy of the Pay to win mentality, you not only have to buy the overpriced dataslates, you also need to go buy (increasingly overpriced) new models to boot, in bulk.
Now the new edition comes, and the options constrict even more. Liked Trygons? Go feth yourself GW says! Liked reliable psyker powers after we've already defiled your psychic options? Go feth yourself GW says! Liked Melee Tyrants? Go feth yourself even harder than you did with the new book GW says. Were you fond of Tervigons even after we cut off their ovaries? Go feth yourself! GW shouts. Were you hoping for any improvement to melee after we spent all of 6e making it less and less viable? Go feth yourself says GW again. You didn't think Haruspexes were so hot? Well too bad, now the MCs you did like are now made much worse so you'll have to buy our new model anyway!
Trygons? Overpriced garbage now.
Meleerants? Even more overpriced garbage if you want them to be actually good. A Space Marine chapter master can get a far more reliable and arguably potent beatstick build for so much less it's not even funny while Daemonic monstrous creatures continued to be as ridiculous as ever.
Tervigons? Even worse than before.
Heirodule? Still a laughably terrible lord of war.
The Tyranid units who were already bad and really needed a buff like Genestealers, Warriors, Lictors, Pyrovores, Tyranid Primes, Skyslashers, Raveners, Shrikes, Old One Eye, and what not? If they got any benefits, it's only because their competition is worse. Otherwise they either got nothing or even got worse.
And superscoring rippers? Don't make me laugh. They die without synapse and get instant death'd by S6+ which is both everywhere and comes in cover ignoring varieties.
It's GW up to it's old trick of "We must sell more models, quick invalidate the old builds!" and just like last time, in trying (and failing) to nerf the over the top units, they ended up making the reasonable units suffer. Like their skimmer "nerf". Dark Eldar skimmers and Tau tanks suffered, but the Annihilation barge actually got better now that it's jink save is better and due to being twin-linked and the quirks of Tesla weapons; doesn't care if it's snap shotting, and the new damage table means it's even tougher than before. The Wave Serpent, thanks to twinlinking, also isn't that adversely affected. And in fact, the Barge is now scoring and the Wave Serpent is now super-scoring.
Similarly, none of the MCs who actually needed a Nerf got one that at all mattered, while the MCs who were at best middling or at worst desperately needed to get better (Bloodthirsters and Squiggoths for example) were very strongly nerfed.
And need I remind you that the Orks are one of my biggest armies?
For my Orks, I can expect a new codex over the Horizon, at most only a half year away, a promise of something better.
For my Tyranids I have nothing to look forward to from GW besides more DLC for years to come.
My Chaos Daemons are still unsure on how the new edition is going to pan out for them, but it seems that everyone but Khorne has something to look forward to. The Khornate daemons however, seem to be doomed to yet more long years of mediocrity.
My Chaos Space marines have a mixed bag in their hands, but at least IA13 should have some stuff.
My Necrons? My Necrons essentially got only good things out of the edition change. The only nerfs I can spot are to my necron monster mash lists which I recognized were never going to be as competitive as a more standard Necron list.
Oh but the Imperium? The Imperium gets all the god damn goodies. All the allies, all the minidexes, the majority of FW support, all the spotlight, all the psychic powers they could want, countless options, oh my Imperial armies if I was going to bother to play GW's rules anymore would be rejoicing because this edition looks like a hard swing back to 5e's Imperial spank fest.
But the army I've collected since childhood when squats still had unit entries in 2e, Noise Marines had guitars, the Dark Eldar had yet to exist, and Virus bombs could completely screw over poor save armies? The one who I've loved since Tyranid Warriors were the silliest god damn thing ever?
Nope. Just blatant cash grabs and promoting more of those hot off the design program new models and more invalidating old lists to force you to buy new ones.
Yes, the rest of the traditional game industry does this, and some do it even worse; like Magic the Gathering's bad habit of completely invalidating what might have been a top tier deck just a short year ago to the point that it would outright illegal to play, or D&D's complete upending of all the core aspects of gameplay every seven years.
No, I don't like them doing it either nor do I think GW is excused for doing it too.
GW needs a good kick in the pants and a serious rethink of it's business practices and how it handles it's games. Because it's bad for all three aspects of the Franchise, it's bad for the game for reasons that are obvious, it's bad for the hobby because GW keeps on dialing up the prices without end in sight (I remember when they said that when they switched from metal to plastic that the savings would be passed to the consumer, oh GW you comedians you) and let's them think they can get away with grotesquely overcharge for basic modeling tools, and it's bad for the lore as it's constantly twisted and contorted to promote the new must buy items in 40k.
So yes, I will continue to bad mouth GW, I will do it everywhere I can find listeners, I will get my friends to do it, I will spread the word, and there are others who are similarly sick and tired of the downhill turn GW has taken. Sooner or later, GW's practice of wringing every last dollar out of it's increasingly stagnating consumer base will backfire. My hope is that it happens sooner so GW can finally open it's eyes and see the cliff it's driving towards. Or perhaps drive all the way off the cliff and crash into the ravine below so that someone can wrest Warhammer from it's corpse.
"A hive tyrant will take 4 turns to kill a landraider now!"
You mean maybe 2? After your crone does two hp with haywire tentaclids and your zoanthrope takes a shot?
That's a hilariously inefficient way to kill a land raider as far as points go.
My Mono-khorne armies have it even worse. Mono-Khorne daemons especially. But GW seems to want to sweep the fact that the Chaos Gods hate each other more than anything else under the rug as they go out of their way to discourage mono-god builds.
You know, because Khornate daemons fighting side by side with the Daemonettes of Slaanesh without the slightest of tensions in any but the most extraordinary of circumstances is so true to the lore.
"A hive tyrant will take 4 turns to kill a landraider now!"
You mean maybe 2? After your crone does two hp with haywire tentaclids and your zoanthrope takes a shot?
I was comparing two relatively equally priced units, as far as I'm aware Tyranids have the same amount of points in a given game as their opponent, so for those extra 200 points of models your opponent also has another 200 points of models.
Also, those 4 turns don't include the two turns it takes to actually get into combat, so it's actually more like 6 turns, provided the Land Raider just sits there and nothing shoots your Hive Tyrant.
GW needs a good kick in the pants and a serious rethink of it's business practices and how it handles it's games. Because it's bad for all three aspects of the Franchise, it's bad for the game for reasons that are obvious, it's bad for the hobby because GW keeps on dialing up the prices without end in sight (I remember when they said that when they switched from metal to plastic that the savings would be passed to the consumer, oh GW you comedians you) and let's them think they can get away with grotesquely overcharge for basic modeling tools, and it's bad for the lore as it's constantly twisted and contorted to promote the new must buy items in 40k.
So yes, I will continue to bad mouth GW, I will do it everywhere I can find listeners, I will get my friends to do it, I will spread the word, and there are others who are similarly sick and tired of the downhill turn GW has taken. Sooner or later, GW's practice of wringing every last dollar out of it's increasingly stagnating consumer base will backfire. My hope is that it happens sooner so GW can finally open it's eyes and see the cliff it's driving towards. Or perhaps drive all the way off the cliff and crash into the ravine below so that someone can wrest Warhammer from it's corpse.
This is so much true. In this moment the only thing to look forward is when Hasbro buys GW, tries to revive WH40k and sells GW staff as slaves somewhere on Somalia.
Land raiders do feth all for damage, if the guys inside are charging then it means they are out in the open.
Either way it doesnt involve doing anything to the land raider. Hell us it as a slingshot if it gets too close.
Monoliths you are still fighting necrons, once again not a big deal.
Play to the mission, design your lists for what they are good at and mitigate your weaknesses where you can.
Smash needed to be nerfed because it basically made it so the only characters you could take needed to have eternal warrior.
But on topic I am excited for mauler fiends and walkers in general. It will be nice to try and see if I can get them on the table and make them work. My clan raukaan spam list might actually survive for a turn.
Anyone see if the restriction on repairing allied vehicles is still in?
I don't think you understand that Land Raiders are scoring now, and cannot be contested by non-Troops units if taken as a dedicated transport for Troops. So in order to play the mission against someone with multiple Land Raiders you're going to have to be able to take them out, not ignore them.
"A hive tyrant will take 4 turns to kill a landraider now!"
You mean maybe 2? After your crone does two hp with haywire tentaclids and your zoanthrope takes a shot?
I was comparing two relatively equally priced units, as far as I'm aware Tyranids have the same amount of points in a given game as their opponent, so for those extra 200 points of models your opponent also has another 200 points of models.
Also, those 4 turns don't include the two turns it takes to actually get into combat, so it's actually more like 6 turns, provided the Land Raider just sits there and nothing shoots your Hive Tyrant.
"A hive tyrant will take 4 turns to kill a landraider now!"
You mean maybe 2? After your crone does two hp with haywire tentaclids and your zoanthrope takes a shot?
That's a hilariously inefficient way to kill a land raider as far as points go.
The sad part is it's also the best we can do short of 6" move units getting into close combat with Crushing Claws/native Strength 9.
Also Zoanthropes "getting a shot off" when all psychic abilities are going to suffer the tremendous unreliability problems witchfires have and have only 18 inches of range, no way of crossing the board quickly, and only toughness 4, two wounds and a 3++ save isn't particularly likely.
Warp lance was iffy when it was AP1, it's going to be iffy as hell at AP2 with dispell dice and deny the witch flying out the ass in 7e now that brotherhood of psykers turned out to be a secret nerf to cut down a Tyranid army's potential power dice to a third (but Daemons, Grey Knights, Guard, and Eldar are all apparently A-okay.)
I also like the double standard of Imperial players being able to endlessly whine and complain about how much their army sucks or how land raiders are bad or how terrible it must be to be them and how there's no strong builds for them with nary a rebuke, but the moment a Chaos or Xenos player opens their mouth to do the same the community jumps down their throat.
Often from people playing the other Chaos or Xenos armies.
You know, if GW is going to continuously switch whether Chaos and the Xenos dominate one edition or if the Imperium dominates another edition they may as well just cut out Chaos and the Aliens from 40k and spare us all the constant yo-yo ride.
You know, if GW is going to continuously switch whether Chaos and the Xenos dominate one edition or if the Imperium dominates another edition they may as well just cut out Chaos and the Aliens from 40k and spare us all the constant yo-yo ride.
PrinceRaven wrote: I don't think you understand that Land Raiders are scoring now, and cannot be contested by non-Troops units if taken as a dedicated transport for Troops. So in order to play the mission against someone with multiple Land Raiders you're going to have to be able to take them out, not ignore them.
Everything is scoring right now. Literally a spawned unit of termagaunts can stop that super scoring land raider from scoring. If it is not a troop land raider than those termagaunts will actually claim if that land raider is there.
I would not worry about it too much. I am not good at dealing with large numbers of fliers with the armies I have. Do I sit around trying to ineffectively deal with them or do I just play to my strengths and focus on other things?
Playing to one's strengths would be an excellent strategy if 6E Tyranids actually had any strengths other than Flyrant spam and the, as Kain said, Pay-to-Win DLC.
Leth wrote: I have been watching battle reports that disagree among competative players.
However if that is the stance you wish to stick with far be it from me to stop you.
Then again I used to win with a warrior themed list back in fifth against missile spam and blood angels so.
An anectdote from a person of note is still an anectdote.
I'm only interested in empirical evidence and empirical evidence shows that the Tyranids are low tier.
FMC spam is their only really strong feature.
Everything else is overly situational, like take the Haruspex for example; it's poor weight of attacks and WS rating means that it is incapable of chewing it's way through a horde unit, but it's strength value means it's no good against vehicles either, while it's WS and lack of an invulnerable save also precludes it from being a monster hunter either, but the WS value again prevents it from going after elites. So what's left for it to do? Chase after poor WSMSUs without invulnerable saves? Even Eldar aspect warriors aren't that overly narrow in their target band.
Furthermore, the lack of substantial options makes most Tyranid units lorebreakingly inflexible despite being the most mutable and adaptable faction in-universe. .
But of course GDubs will induce heavy handed and hamfisted retcons whenever it feels like it to sell more models. Because they don't care one iota for the setting and background beyond it being a profitable liscense, source of supplementary income and advertising vehicle.
No artistic passion exists in GW anymore outside of it's model sculpting department (and the existence of the heinously ugly Taurox seems to suggest even that's fading). All that's left is callous greed and rampant sloth.
To reward them with your money is to reward them for becoming everything a gaming company shouldn't be.
koooaei wrote: You're complaining about walkers beigh buffed in mellee?.. In all fairness, walkers are supposed to be on par with the toughest monsters fluffwise. Wraithknights are as broken as they were before - nothing changes here.
Walkers haven't been buffed in melee, they're just as pathetic against Krak grenade wielding Tactical Squads as ever.
Krak grenades that glance at 6, and you only get 1 attack per model?
Yea, a tactical squad might put a single glance in an assault phase, on a regular dread. ironclad cant even be glanced in theory by it.
Walkers take hits in front by grenades just like by MCs...
Yeah, I thought the whole "oh no, Krak Grenades destroy Dreadnoughts" thing was a little overblown, but the Internet seemed to think it was a huge deal at the time.
koooaei wrote: You're complaining about walkers beigh buffed in mellee?.. In all fairness, walkers are supposed to be on par with the toughest monsters fluffwise. Wraithknights are as broken as they were before - nothing changes here.
Walkers haven't been buffed in melee, they're just as pathetic against Krak grenade wielding Tactical Squads as ever.
Krak grenades that glance at 6, and you only get 1 attack per model?
Yea, a tactical squad might put a single glance in an assault phase, on a regular dread. ironclad cant even be glanced in theory by it.
Walkers take hits in front by grenades just like by MCs...
Now a Firewarrior or Wych squad laughs at a melee walker.
Because a dreadnought should be more afraid of a dozen firewarriors with cheap EMP grenades than a Trygon twice as tall as it is.
koooaei wrote: You're complaining about walkers beigh buffed in mellee?.. In all fairness, walkers are supposed to be on par with the toughest monsters fluffwise. Wraithknights are as broken as they were before - nothing changes here.
Walkers haven't been buffed in melee, they're just as pathetic against Krak grenade wielding Tactical Squads as ever.
Krak grenades that glance at 6, and you only get 1 attack per model?
Yea, a tactical squad might put a single glance in an assault phase, on a regular dread. ironclad cant even be glanced in theory by it.
Walkers take hits in front by grenades just like by MCs...
Now a Firewarrior or Wych squad laughs at a melee walker.
Because a dreadnought should be more afraid of a dozen firewarriors with cheap EMP grenades than a Trygon twice as tall as it is.
Fire warriors almost never BUY the upgrade that gives them haywire grenades (its 2 points per model, not THAT cheap), and your chance to hit anything is usually 5+, meaning only third of the attacks even hit. for a strict anti-vehicle upgrade.
On an army with zero assault transports, a unit with no real mobility enchanting abilities (pathfinders can scout, but trying to assault with that would be silly as they are even MORE fragile) having your T3 Sv4+ guys charging a walker that hits you first, and is likely to overwatch with a heavy flamer or the sort...SO OP, an anti-tank upgrade MIGHT give you a fighting chance against a walker! (just to factor it in, 12 fire warriors assualting a dread, lets go easy and say only 3 die to combined overwatch and punching, it means 9 throw grenades, 3 hit. just barely killing a dread. with a more expensive unit equipped to take down tanks in CC.)
Wychs, no clue. but correct me if i'm wrong-they are dedicated melee anti-tank? isnt that SUPPOSED to beat tanks!?
Everyone, quick, lets never take a walker, there are units who can kill them, if specifically equipped for it.
Wychs, no clue. but correct me if i'm wrong-they are dedicated melee anti-tank? isnt that SUPPOSED to beat tanks!?
Wyches are dedicated melee that are supposed to beat infantry, but because of the 6th edition changes cannot be used in that capacity. They get the same haywire grenades for 2 ppm, making them 12ppm and are used to go after tanks.
koooaei wrote: You're complaining about walkers beigh buffed in mellee?.. In all fairness, walkers are supposed to be on par with the toughest monsters fluffwise. Wraithknights are as broken as they were before - nothing changes here.
Walkers haven't been buffed in melee, they're just as pathetic against Krak grenade wielding Tactical Squads as ever.
Krak grenades that glance at 6, and you only get 1 attack per model?
Yea, a tactical squad might put a single glance in an assault phase, on a regular dread. ironclad cant even be glanced in theory by it.
Walkers take hits in front by grenades just like by MCs...
Now a Firewarrior or Wych squad laughs at a melee walker.
Because a dreadnought should be more afraid of a dozen firewarriors with cheap EMP grenades than a Trygon twice as tall as it is.
Fire warriors almost never BUY the upgrade that gives them haywire grenades (its 2 points per model, not THAT cheap), and your chance to hit anything is usually 5+, meaning only third of the attacks even hit. for a strict anti-vehicle upgrade.
On an army with zero assault transports, a unit with no real mobility enchanting abilities (pathfinders can scout, but trying to assault with that would be silly as they are even MORE fragile) having your T3 Sv4+ guys charging a walker that hits you first, and is likely to overwatch with a heavy flamer or the sort...SO OP, an anti-tank upgrade MIGHT give you a fighting chance against a walker! (just to factor it in, 12 fire warriors assualting a dread, lets go easy and say only 3 die to combined overwatch and punching, it means 9 throw grenades, 3 hit. just barely killing a dread. with a more expensive unit equipped to take down tanks in CC.)
Wychs, no clue. but correct me if i'm wrong-they are dedicated melee anti-tank? isnt that SUPPOSED to beat tanks!?
Everyone, quick, lets never take a walker, there are units who can kill them, if specifically equipped for it.
Wyches are meant to be dedicated anti-MEQ and horde killing assault infantry. They're essentially everything Banshees should be.
They're only used as anti-vehicle units as well as Horde and Marine choppers because they have haywire grenades and are dirt cheap.
Their anti-vehicle ability is simply a little something extra.
DaddyWarcrimes wrote: They're used to go after tanks, despite being in an army that has access to massive quantities of S8 AP2 Lance fire on Fast platforms.
In addition to being bad at their job, they're extremely redundant.
5-10 haywire hits at dark eldar level WS kills any vehicle dead.
They would be used for assaulting infantry more, but 6e hates Assault's guts (overwatch is nasty when they're that squishy) and 7e looks like it hates assault even more.
minigun762 wrote: If Tyranids fear a Dreadnought then don't try to kill it, just tie it up forever with you're nearly limitless troops
Yes, seeing if they changed the rules about assaulting vehicles you can't hurt or made an exception for Walkers is definitely on my to-do list when I've got the new rules in-hand.
GoliothOnline wrote: In all honesty I just don't know why they kept the "replace attacks with X doubling strength" mechanism for Smash attacks.
AP2 was more than enough. Considering most MCs that are actually meant to be in CC (Lets forget about the Riptide for now) already have str 5+ most being of the Str 6 quality, was there really a reason to give them automatic str 10? Now Riptides aren't supposed to be good in melee at all, but on the off chance you DO make that 1 smash attack, you're killing a Daemon Prince if he fails his 5++ You're destroying a Land Raider on a 4+ and now they have Armorbane? Cmon GW. Knock that gak off and stop giving MCs stupid rules they don't need. AP 2 was fine and enough.
Bloodthirsters, Trygons, Keeper of Secrets, Great Unclean Ones, Hive Tyrants, Haruspexes, Daemon Princes, Knarlocs, Canoptek Stalkers, and Big Squiggoths are all ostensibly melee melee MCs without access to native S10.
Now the GUO, Daemon prince, and KoS can all easily get Iron Arm and don't really care.
The others apparently can go and get fethed if faced with anything as simple as a Dreadnought.
I pay 200+ points for a Trygon which doesn't have the weight of attacks to be good at clearing out large infantry blocks or the invulnerable save to be truly worth it's cost in a monster-fight, it should not be getting it's ass handed to it by a much cheaper Dreadnought.
KoS do not have access to Biomancy, but to Telepathy.
Now, Slaanesh DPs with Iron Arm and a Lash of Despair... 12" S9 Assault 2d6. Or with a Witstealer sword and Iron Arm + Warp Speed (8 attacks at S9 AP2 Rending)
Nurgle (GUO or DPs) with Warp Speed (Iron Arm is good as well) and a Plague Sword are interesting AT as well (Touch of Rust)
minigun762 wrote: If Tyranids fear a Dreadnought then don't try to kill it, just tie it up forever with you're nearly limitless troops
Yes, seeing if they changed the rules about assaulting vehicles you can't hurt or made an exception for Walkers is definitely on my to-do list when I've got the new rules in-hand.
Good point for the little guys unless you add a Warrior Prime. Genestealers are still workable.
GoliothOnline wrote: In all honesty I just don't know why they kept the "replace attacks with X doubling strength" mechanism for Smash attacks.
AP2 was more than enough. Considering most MCs that are actually meant to be in CC (Lets forget about the Riptide for now) already have str 5+ most being of the Str 6 quality, was there really a reason to give them automatic str 10? Now Riptides aren't supposed to be good in melee at all, but on the off chance you DO make that 1 smash attack, you're killing a Daemon Prince if he fails his 5++ You're destroying a Land Raider on a 4+ and now they have Armorbane? Cmon GW. Knock that gak off and stop giving MCs stupid rules they don't need. AP 2 was fine and enough.
Bloodthirsters, Trygons, Keeper of Secrets, Great Unclean Ones, Hive Tyrants, Haruspexes, Daemon Princes, Knarlocs, Canoptek Stalkers, and Big Squiggoths are all ostensibly melee melee MCs without access to native S10.
Now the GUO, Daemon prince, and KoS can all easily get Iron Arm and don't really care.
The others apparently can go and get fethed if faced with anything as simple as a Dreadnought.
I pay 200+ points for a Trygon which doesn't have the weight of attacks to be good at clearing out large infantry blocks or the invulnerable save to be truly worth it's cost in a monster-fight, it should not be getting it's ass handed to it by a much cheaper Dreadnought.
KoS do not have access to Biomancy, but to Telepathy.
Now, Slaanesh DPs with Iron Arm and a Lash of Despair... 12" S9 Assault 2d6. Or with a Witstealer sword and Iron Arm + Warp Speed (8 attacks at S9 AP2 Rending)
Nurgle (GUO or DPs) with Warp Speed (Iron Arm is good as well) and a Plague Sword are interesting AT as well (Touch of Rust)
minigun762 wrote: If Tyranids fear a Dreadnought then don't try to kill it, just tie it up forever with you're nearly limitless troops
Yes, seeing if they changed the rules about assaulting vehicles you can't hurt or made an exception for Walkers is definitely on my to-do list when I've got the new rules in-hand.
Good point for the little guys unless you add a Warrior Prime. Genestealers are still workable.
Genestealers aren't cheap (and don't have much use), and while a Warrior Prime is a cheap HQ, it's not cheap enough to be a tarpit-enabler for a Dreadnought.
minigun762 wrote: If Tyranids fear a Dreadnought then don't try to kill it, just tie it up forever with you're nearly limitless troops
Yes, seeing if they changed the rules about assaulting vehicles you can't hurt or made an exception for Walkers is definitely on my to-do list when I've got the new rules in-hand.
Good point for the little guys unless you add a Warrior Prime. Genestealers are still workable.
14 points or more per (oh so very squishy) for something much cheaper Daemonettes do just as well if not better.
This is what tar-pits are made of.
/Sarcasm.
You're giving GW far too much credit and assuming they have any idea what balance is.
That stumpy legged metal box is a fallen hero of the space marines brought back to do war in the Emperor's name once more, and has been unable to do this for fear of getting mulched even in the close combat scenario they were built for.
If you're going to complain, do it about mechanics where you've a leg to stand on.
obsidiankatana wrote: That stumpy legged metal box is a fallen hero of the space marines brought back to do war in the Emperor's name once more, and has been unable to do this for fear of getting mulched even in the close combat scenario they were built for.
If you're going to complain, do it about mechanics where you've a leg to stand on.
Now the Bloodthirster is terrified of engaging in a fight with any Dreadnought, if not for being killed (he probably won't) but because of the massive amounts of time the Dreadnought will waste and the wounds the Bloodthirster will suffer in the fight, if it's a Furioso dreadnought with blood claws, the Bloodthirster has a very good chance of outright losing to the much cheaper Dreadnought. The Trygon (which is well over twice the size of a Dreadnought), due to it's lack of invulnerable save and worse WS, is even more reluctant to face a dreadnought when it really should be able to fling the Dreadnought around like a toy rather than impotently slap at it.
Honestly I'd be happier if the Trygon just got buffed.
For something meant to be huge and terrifying it's too...middling.
A bloodthirster also has a good chance at turning most other mcs inside out with instant death 6's, twice the movement of a dread, can mulch infantry squads, and STILL one shot the dread with luck.
Nids are in a bad spot that just got worse, that I won't argue. But demons are hardly suffering horribly, and their nerfs are not entirely unwarranted. Bearing in mind that eldar absolutely don't care about these changes.
obsidiankatana wrote: A bloodthirster also has a good chance at turning most other mcs inside out with instant death 6's, twice the movement of a dread, can mulch infantry squads, and STILL one shot the dread with luck.
Nids are in a bad spot that just got worse, that I won't argue. But demons are hardly suffering horribly, and their nerfs are not entirely unwarranted. Bearing in mind that eldar absolutely don't care about these changes.
I've mentioned the last thing quite a bit. The only Eldar MC who particularly cares is the Avatar of Khaine, but he has a meltagun that can potentially be two shot to make up for it a little.
The space marine using part of me sees Contemptor dreads now being very good MC killers.
AV13 puts them out of the ability of most MCs to hurt them without resorting to smash and the little 6++ save can ward off a few hits.
In the meantime, plasma blasters can shave off a few wounds before the assault begins and give them a further leg up.
A bloodthirster would need a good deal of luck to kill the Contemptor (a whole heap of it) in while the Contemptor relentlessly pounds it's face.
Leth wrote: I have been watching battle reports that disagree among competative players.
However if that is the stance you wish to stick with far be it from me to stop you.
Then again I used to win with a warrior themed list back in fifth against missile spam and blood angels so.
An anectdote from a person of note is still an anectdote.
I'm only interested in empirical evidence and empirical evidence shows that the Tyranids are low tier.
FMC spam is their only really strong feature.
Everything else is overly situational, like take the Haruspex for example; it's poor weight of attacks and WS rating means that it is incapable of chewing it's way through a horde unit, but it's strength value means it's no good against vehicles either, while it's WS and lack of an invulnerable save also precludes it from being a monster hunter either, but the WS value again prevents it from going after elites. So what's left for it to do? Chase after poor WSMSUs without invulnerable saves? Even Eldar aspect warriors aren't that overly narrow in their target band.
Furthermore, the lack of substantial options makes most Tyranid units lorebreakingly inflexible despite being the most mutable and adaptable faction in-universe. .
But of course GDubs will induce heavy handed and hamfisted retcons whenever it feels like it to sell more models. Because they don't care one iota for the setting and background beyond it being a profitable liscense, source of supplementary income and advertising vehicle.
No artistic passion exists in GW anymore outside of it's model sculpting department (and the existence of the heinously ugly Taurox seems to suggest even that's fading). All that's left is callous greed and rampant sloth.
To reward them with your money is to reward them for becoming everything a gaming company shouldn't be.
Lol, its not my job to try and help you find ways to enjoy your hobby, if you want to be miserable be miserable, I dont really care.
We have little to no empirical evidence for tyranids in 6th and we have none for 7th so you are basing your evidence on anecdotal just as much as I am, so dont pretend to be taking the scientific high ground.
That's all the problems with codexes and not rulesets. The ruleset is getting plain better right now imo. MC needed a nerf on the whole with their smashes. Yep, the nerf happened to be too strong probably but it doesn't instantly make them invalid. The nerf with mellee attacking after landing - well, it's what every other mellee guy faced in 6 ed with outflank and non-assault transports. Khorne zerks say hello from atop of a rhino.
That's all the problems with codexes and not rulesets. The ruleset is getting plain better right now cause it FORCES you to go tac now.
And GW fething sucks at making balanced codexes (either internally or externally) or clear and tight rules. They deserve to be punished with financial woes to see that they have lost their way.
That's all the problems with codexes and not rulesets. The ruleset is getting plain better right now imo. MC needed a nerf on the whole with their smashes. Yep, the nerf happened to be too strong probably but it doesn't instantly make them invalid. The nerf with mellee attacking after landing - well, it's what every other mellee guy faced in 6 ed with outflank and non-assault transports. Khorne zerks say hello from atop of a rhino.
MCs didn't need a Smash nerf on top of the damage chart change. It does make most MCs unable to do anything against high AV vehicles.
You talk about smash as if it was only used against vehicles. It was limited because it basically made it so you couldnt take any characters without eternal warrior
Leth wrote: You talk about smash as if it was only used against vehicles. It was limited because it basically made it so you couldnt take any characters without eternal warrior
Then just bring back the old armorbane and AP2 on monstrous creatures and stop handing out smash like candy?
In turn, give walkers increased protection in melee such as forcing rerolls of successful armor pens or being counted as having +1 armor in assault. And perhaps AP2 and armorbane for free since the logic behind giving MCs armorbane can be applied to MCs.
In turn, make weapons that give out armorbane on MCs and Walkers now instead allow for rerolls to penetrate armor and make them cheaper.
Leth wrote: You talk about smash as if it was only used against vehicles. It was limited because it basically made it so you couldnt take any characters without eternal warrior
So instead of destroying its use at all, make it so you can only Smash vehicles.
That's all the problems with codexes and not rulesets. The ruleset is getting plain better right now cause it FORCES you to go tac now.
And GW fething sucks at making balanced codexes (either internally or externally) or clear and tight rules. They deserve to be punished with financial woes to see that they have lost their way.
If they suck so hard at writing codexes, how are you waiting them to be great at writing core rules. That's wayharder to do than to write a codex.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kain wrote: Look out it's the Order of the White Knights!
Leth wrote: You talk about smash as if it was only used against vehicles. It was limited because it basically made it so you couldnt take any characters without eternal warrior
Then just bring back the old armorbane and AP2 on monstrous creatures and stop handing out smash like candy?
In turn, give walkers increased protection in melee such as forcing rerolls of successful armor pens or being counted as having +1 armor in assault. And perhaps AP2 and armorbane for free since the logic behind giving MCs armorbane can be applied to MCs.
In turn, make weapons that give out armorbane on MCs and Walkers now instead allow for rerolls to penetrate armor and make them cheaper.
great rules! now only mc can kill walkers in mellee. That's the spirit.
That's all the problems with codexes and not rulesets. The ruleset is getting plain better right now cause it FORCES you to go tac now.
And GW fething sucks at making balanced codexes (either internally or externally) or clear and tight rules. They deserve to be punished with financial woes to see that they have lost their way.
If they suck so hard at writing codexes, how are you waiting them to be great at writing core rules. That's wayharder to do than to write a codex.
If GW's rules were so good, YMDC wouldn't be one of the biggest forums on the site. From my dabblings into law and my studies of game theory; if a game's rules have to be extensively argued and debated because they're not clear, they're bad rules.
That's all the problems with codexes and not rulesets. The ruleset is getting plain better right now cause it FORCES you to go tac now.
And GW fething sucks at making balanced codexes (either internally or externally) or clear and tight rules. They deserve to be punished with financial woes to see that they have lost their way.
If they suck so hard at writing codexes, how are you waiting them to be great at writing core rules. That's wayharder to do than to write a codex.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kain wrote: Look out it's the Order of the White Knights!
Leth wrote: You talk about smash as if it was only used against vehicles. It was limited because it basically made it so you couldnt take any characters without eternal warrior
Then just bring back the old armorbane and AP2 on monstrous creatures and stop handing out smash like candy?
In turn, give walkers increased protection in melee such as forcing rerolls of successful armor pens or being counted as having +1 armor in assault. And perhaps AP2 and armorbane for free since the logic behind giving MCs armorbane can be applied to MCs.
In turn, make weapons that give out armorbane on MCs and Walkers now instead allow for rerolls to penetrate armor and make them cheaper.
great rules! now only mc can kill walkers in mellee. That's the spirit.
Chainfists, Powerfists, Thunderhammers, Haywires, Warscythes, Entropic Strikes, and Meltabombs generally still wreck most walkers even with forced rerolls to penetrate armor.
The threat that krak grenades pose is massively overstated.
Yep good luck killing an av14 (as you suggest) walker with a power fist.
Note, i didn't say that their rules are perfect. They're actually becoming better since the last edition.
Quick math of Bloodthirster with greater etherblade vs standard Dreadnought is 2.67 HP on the charge not counting the whip.
So odds are very good you slaughter the thing before it swings.
koooaei wrote: Yep good luck killing an av14 (as you suggest) walker with a power fist.
Note, i didn't say that their rules are perfect. They're actually becoming better since the last edition.
S8 power fists are suboptimal against AV14 anyway.
The +1 or reroll to armor pen thing is an either or thing.
The latter is generally better against things that can still gen a pen against an AV one step up, the former has the benefit of being able to put a walker out of harm's way for anything that was only able to glance it, or make it only glanceable by something that was only penetrating it on a six.
Essentially the trade off between 6e tankhunters vs 5e tankhunters.
minigun762 wrote: Quick math of Bloodthirster with greater etherblade vs standard Dreadnought is 2.67 HP on the charge not counting the whip.
So odds are very good you slaughter the thing before it swings.
Outstanding!
...as long as you did not fly to get there. What's the mathhammer on being shot at by everything else on the board while you wait to assault?
minigun762 wrote: Quick math of Bloodthirster with greater etherblade vs standard Dreadnought is 2.67 HP on the charge not counting the whip.
So odds are very good you slaughter the thing before it swings.
Outstanding!
...as long as you did not fly to get there. What's the mathhammer on being shot at by everything else on the board while you wait to assault?
The same as your entire army destroying the Dreadnought at range.
Dreadnoughts are still going to be terrible in 7e most likely.
Their core problems revealed in 6e haven't really changed significantly from what we know of 7e:
Lack of Mobility. 6" move on a melee walker just ain't gonna cut it. You'll see Maulerfiends, but that's because they actually have the speed to get into combat by T2.
Lack of Ranged Durability. Dreadnoughts are still AV12 front with 3 HP and no defensive measures. Volume of S6-7 fire still totally ruins their day, and I don't see that changing up for a bit. Yeah, they got more survivable in melee, but if they can't get there, the problem remains. Maulerfiends at least get the 5++ and IWND.
Lack of Output. Basically all melee dreads except for the Blood Talons Furioso with Prescience are terrible at actually killing things. You've got, what, 2-3 WS4 attacks, so 1-2 hits. Yeah, that'll kill 1-2 chaff models, and you'll be still grinding your way through them till the end of the game. Against vehicles you'll do better, but that also means that you've gotten your 6" move walker into melee with a vehicle. Maulerfiends also avoid the problem by being able to get into CC with vehicles due to their speed.
The only dreads you saw people taking in 5e were either suicide Drop Pod MM dreads, or riflemen/psyflemen. You didn't even see those in 6e, because a single melta shot got less valuable in comparison to repeated glances, and the output of even psyflemen is just dwarfed by wave serpents, and they are blown away in ranged combat against them.
In 7e, I predict that you might see psyflemen dreadnoughts again because they'll add more dice to the GK magi-I mean psychic phase. An additional die to throw at your powers for a little more than 100 points, with some shooting output? Not the worst thing that you could be doing. But mixed or melee dreads? I doubt it. Maulerfiends, yes, because they dodge most of the issues that plague dreadnoughts.
As for MCs, you'll see even less melee ones, and about the same amount of ranged ones most likely. FMCs are harder to ground, so gunships are more effective. The Daemon Flying Circus list doesn't care about getting into melee, it's all about keeping their MCs out of danger as long as possible, and that's buffed in 7e it seems. I'm really sorry for Tyranids. Yeah, they may have a build for 7e which isn't that terrible (take all the FMCs you can and just shoot stuff all game) but their core problems of being a monobuild dex whose monobuild changes radically every edition is sad stuff.
I just want to know what the heck Daemons and Tyranids are supposed to do against Knight??
Both of those codexes literally have no good counters to Knights. An army that is virtually immune to two whole armies is extremely bad rules writing.
herpguy wrote: I just want to know what the heck Daemons and Tyranids are supposed to do against Knight??
Both of those codexes literally have no good counters to Knights. An army that is virtually immune to two whole armies is extremely bad rules writing.
Demons fly. Nids fly. Weak answers, but Knights can't shoot up but with strength 4.
herpguy: We spam the hell out of Hive Crones and electroshock grubs
4 Flyrants, 6 Hive Crones is going to be the go-to list for Tyranids in 7th.
I really hate how GW not only actively encourages spamming but also severely nerfs our non-spam lists.
The Daemon Flying Circus list doesn't care about getting into melee, it's all about keeping their MCs out of danger as long as possible, and that's buffed in 7e it seems
Daemon FMC is going to be a totally different beast now. To say they don't care about getting into melee is wrong. Their entire power comes from the fact that they can hide for the entire game and then go anywhere they want and do anything they want. Taking melee out of this equation limits their gameplay.
The changes to FMC not being able to charge after swooping seriously impacts their end game plays. No longer will they be able to charge on the last turn to take that objective off you without exposing themselves to a turn of fire first.
They are also no longer scoring whilst swooping so again they will not be able to score in the last turn as they once did.
Non contestable scoring troop choices are also going to pose a challenge. Even if your FMC changes to glide and gets with 3 of an objective, if there is an enemy troop choice there then there is nothing you can do.
Tzeentch Daemons without the gimoire and portal glyph care less about the smash rules than most though, as they can get easy access to st 8, which is enough vs most vehicles.
The Daemon Flying Circus list doesn't care about getting into melee, it's all about keeping their MCs out of danger as long as possible, and that's buffed in 7e it seems
Daemon FMC is going to be a totally different beast now. To say they don't care about getting into melee is wrong. Their entire power comes from the fact that they can hide for the entire game and then go anywhere they want and do anything they want. Taking melee out of this equation limits their gameplay.
The changes to FMC not being able to charge after swooping seriously impacts their end game plays. No longer will they be able to charge on the last turn to take that objective off you without exposing themselves to a turn of fire first.
They are also no longer scoring whilst swooping so again they will not be able to score in the last turn as they once did.
Non contestable scoring troop choices are also going to pose a challenge. Even if your FMC changes to glide and gets with 3 of an objective, if there is an enemy troop choice there then there is nothing you can do.
Tzeentch Daemons without the gimoire and portal glyph care less about the smash rules than most though, as they can get easy access to st 8, which is enough vs most vehicles.
Yeah, you are actually right about that. I don't think it ruins their strat though, but it will force them to change up how they go about it. Maybe you'll see more ranged attacks to attempt to drive weak troops off objectives? I don't actually know what FMcircus ran in particular, so I'm mostly theoryhammering for that list.
herpguy wrote: I just want to know what the heck Daemons and Tyranids are supposed to do against Knight??
Both of those codexes literally have no good counters to Knights. An army that is virtually immune to two whole armies is extremely bad rules writing.
Daemons have easy access to S8 FMCs without the need to smash. Problem solved.
And it only takes 3 Hive Crones firing all of their tentaclids and Vector Striking to put down a single Knight (provided you avoid firing at the shield), so all you need to do is write a massive cheque to your local Games Workshop retailer so you can have 3 times as many Crones as your enemy has Knights.
smash nerf seems to help a aobf prince, previously is was a bad idea as black mace was so much better for a few extra points as you can deal with infantry insanely well and armour wasn't a problem due to smash.
now the table has switched and AoBF price is the king of deleting units from the battlefield up to 13 S9 ap2 attacks, still dies the minute it kills (due to all the fire being attracted) but it all depends on what you killed, land raider and termie squad=good, cultist squad = bad
Exergy wrote: Did maulerfiends just get really good at taking on MCs?
Yes. Basically, you have a single turn to take them out before they hit your lines (and are pretty much immortal in close combat against Tyranids). Against other armies that didn't rely on Smash to defend against Walkers, not so much.