So with all the worrying about demon factories ROFLSTOMPING everything,
I thought it would be best to assuage peoples fears.
This thread is NOT FOR COMPLAINING ABOUT DEMON FACTORY.
this thread is for listing hard or at least, very good, counters to the strategy.
hard counter #1
crowding out their table edge:
any mobile unit, skimmers, bikes, fast vehicles, drop pods, and so on can get into their zone by turn one or two, summoning spells only have a 6-12 inch range, and will generally scatter, causing mishaps.
counter #2
Have a very shooty army:
If you can bring an army like tau, eldar, IG, or shooty anything, you should have enough firepower to kill 10+ t3/4 5++ models and their herald/sorcerer each turn. Since they are 100% focussed on summoning things that cannot really shoot, you will have plenty of time to shoot them since your army is not being damaged as much as it would VS an army that actually can shoot you effectively.
Add in things like sniper, barrage and you can prioritze the targets that give them the most warp charges. they can only summon units that grant one warp charge, so taking out characters that grant 2-3 WC is ideal. Once they have less then 6 charges to spend on each summoning, their odds of getting it off become horrible.
Since they are trying to stay back and summon, they will also be crowding their board like a mofo, so blast and template weapons will be wreaking havoc.
counter #3:
grey knights.
thats not a comprehensive list by any means, but every single codex has either a "shooty" or a "speedy" solution to this.
Considering that all the tournaments will have demons at 1FOC, and you cannot ally with yourself, even with every HQ at ML 3, and every troops/elite/HS/fast filled to max with BOP's (6+3+3+3) they only get 21+d6 warp charges per turn, which will give them a 65% chance to get off 4 summoning spells @ 6dice each try, assuming average rolls of 3 extra warp dice. they now have 0 WC's left for any other power.
meaning they will likely get off 2-3 summons, and since the % to perils on each of those 4 tries is 26%, they will likely perils at LEAST once. Thats also not including problems due to DS mishaps.
please list out good counters that you have found, or any relevent tactical information regarding demon factory, or counters to it.
Again, this is not a whine and complain about demonfactory thread, please keep OT
yes, every unit with BOP in demon codex can get a summon power
I just looked for the faq after i had posted that and saw they were updated this morning.. I am actually baffled that they didnt make horrors change only.. but what can you do.. Personally I wont be going the rout of mass summoning, but I will likely try and get myself a nice bloodthirster at least some point throughout the game haha.
Played a 1000pt game this weekend to try out the new rules. My opponent had 4 heralds and a couple other nasties. He would summon up pink horrors, those pink horrors summoned more pink horrors, etc. I killed the heralds with shooting as fast as I could. In the end, it didn't matter, he had all the objectives with his summoned horrors, he summoned 2-3 units a turn.
In low point games, heralds are pretty scary. Bring a lot of shooting or awesome melee.
? how was he getting the 24 WC's to get 2-3 summoned units off each turn? 4 heralds is only 12 charges at ML 3. was he using summoned units to summon units the same turn they arrived? thats not allowed if he did.
sounds like you did the right thing targeting ML 3 heralds, you sure he played it right though?
easysauce wrote: ? how was he getting the 24 WC's to get 2-3 summoned units off each turn? 4 heralds is only 12 charges at ML 3. was he using summoned units to summon units the same turn they arrived? thats not allowed if he did.
sounds like you did the right thing targeting ML 3 heralds, you sure he played it right though?
Did you factor in his Troop Choices being that they were probably MORE pink horrors generating anywhere between 1-3 Charges per squad?
If the daemons plan is just to summon horrors then they aren't going to be able to do much against a wall of AV13. Mix in some Eradicators for ignores cover, some Beast hunter vanquishers for any MC that turn up and take a bunch of demolisher cannons for everything else.
That alone is 34 dice. Factor in ML3 Daemon Princes for Heavy Support, etc and you're even higher.
Also, summoned Daemons are VERY unlikely to scatter if you have an Icon of Chaos on the board. Even if you don't, they are free for summoned units of Pink Horrors, so subsequent summons wouldn't scatter. Also, a casting of the 1 warp charge Scorched Earth power prevents scatter.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And the plan I think is to summon Horrors (or more likely Heralds) who can then pop themselves and become Greater Daemons.
So far the clown-car list is to summon horros, who then sacrifice to heralds, then summon GDs to beatface. Takes 3 turns but once going it sure seems unstoppable.
One good counter I'm thinking of is GK henchmen in psybacks. They are cheap but the psybacks themselves get banishment and sanctuary (1 warpcharge each) so roll up and start weakening those deamons while in the safety of the vehicle.
That alone is 34 dice. Factor in ML3 Daemon Princes for Heavy Support, etc and you're even higher.
Also, summoned Daemons are VERY unlikely to scatter if you have an Icon of Chaos on the board. Even if you don't, they are free for summoned units of Pink Horrors, so subsequent summons wouldn't scatter. Also, a casting of the 1 warp charge Scorched Earth power prevents scatter.
each horror unit counts as a lvl 1 psyker right? so only +1 warp charge point per unit, regardless of how big the unit is.
And the plan I think is to summon Horrors (or more likely Heralds) who can then pop themselves and become Greater Daemons.
nevermind i found it in the daemon codex.
so they generate more warp charge points per size... but being a lvl1 caster can only cast one power per turn. awesome.
GK IFVs getting Banishment and using embarked henchman psykers as additional warp charge to cast it just might be the silliest thing in the edition. I love it.
buddha wrote: So far the clown-car list is to summon horros, who then sacrifice to heralds, then summon GDs to beatface. Takes 3 turns but once going it sure seems unstoppable.
One good counter I'm thinking of is GK henchmen in psybacks. They are cheap but the psybacks themselves get banishment and sanctuary (1 warpcharge each) so roll up and start weakening those deamons while in the safety of the vehicle.
Why not just go straight from Pink Horrors to Greater Daemons?
If you've taken 4 heralds, chances are one will have the Portaglyph as well for more free troops of Pink Horrors, just keep trying to cast Possession. If you arent successful, wait a round.
Also, it seems Plague Bearers who have FNP conferred to them are the best option for point sacking since you can negate the wound necessary for casting Sacrifice (hah) Or just have a Great Fat Bastard cast it since he can (And highly likely WILL) have FNP 4+ From Biomancy's new Endurance.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, Riftbringer
buddha wrote: So far the clown-car list is to summon horros, who then sacrifice to heralds, then summon GDs to beatface. Takes 3 turns but once going it sure seems unstoppable.
One good counter I'm thinking of is GK henchmen in psybacks. They are cheap but the psybacks themselves get banishment and sanctuary (1 warpcharge each) so roll up and start weakening those deamons while in the safety of the vehicle.
Why not just go straight from Pink Horrors to Greater Daemons?
If you've taken 4 heralds, chances are one will have the Portaglyph as well for more free troops of Pink Horrors, just keep trying to cast Possession. If you arent successful, wait a round.
Also, it seems Plague Bearers who have FNP conferred to them are the best option for point sacking since you can negate the wound necessary for casting Sacrifice (hah) Or just have a Great Fat Bastard cast it since he can (And highly likely WILL) have FNP 4+ From Biomancy's new Endurance.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, Riftbringer
Well, as Desubot pointed out, they still have to successfully roll to get both the Herald and GD powers. I was just pointing out the general idea. If they start the game with 4 lvl 3 tzeentch heralds (as in almost any case they would) they have a very good chance of getting both on multiple casters. They summon the horrors first turn to add warpcharge, then summon Heralds for easier sacrifice into GDs the next turn. I don't play it, this is just how the playstyle was explained to me.
That alone is 34 dice. Factor in ML3 Daemon Princes for Heavy Support, etc and you're even higher.
Also, summoned Daemons are VERY unlikely to scatter if you have an Icon of Chaos on the board. Even if you don't, they are free for summoned units of Pink Horrors, so subsequent summons wouldn't scatter. Also, a casting of the 1 warp charge Scorched Earth power prevents scatter.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And the plan I think is to summon Horrors (or more likely Heralds) who can then pop themselves and become Greater Daemons.
sorry, but why are troops choices of ML one BOP's getting 3 charges a turn?
not saying you are wrong, just want to know why, somthing about full unit size right?
also, how many points is all that?
doesnt seem like there is anything that can actually shoot past 24",
and it seems like thats the whole army tied up in generating charges, only to summon more t3 5++ demons which are not really game breaking.
the other summoning spells still have to be rolled for after all, and once you have units within 12" of them, scatter or not, they wont be summoning things. also crowded in their end still
That alone is 34 dice. Factor in ML3 Daemon Princes for Heavy Support, etc and you're even higher.
Also, summoned Daemons are VERY unlikely to scatter if you have an Icon of Chaos on the board. Even if you don't, they are free for summoned units of Pink Horrors, so subsequent summons wouldn't scatter. Also, a casting of the 1 warp charge Scorched Earth power prevents scatter.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
And the plan I think is to summon Horrors (or more likely Heralds) who can then pop themselves and become Greater Daemons.
sorry, but why are troops choices of ML one BOP's getting 3 charges a turn?
not saying you are wrong, just want to know why.
also, how many points is all that, doesnt seem like there is anything that can actually shoot past 24",
HORRORS have a rule that based on unit size they provide x amount of warp charges. If they have at least 16 models in the unit they provide 3.
also the horrors can use the fmales of tzeentch spells to unleash ranged doom, but it eats into their warp charges, but they have plenty!
Elric Greywolf wrote: The list he wrote, sans upgrades of any kind (except the add'l PMLs for the Tzeralds) is 1544pts.
Don't forget that Fateweaver generates 8WC per turn.
So that's 38 WC per turn, and you're paying 41ppWC. Not bad (although not the best).
Still leaves room for two Burning Chariots in a 1750 game, which would add some high Str shooting that this list lacks.
fateweaver does NOT get 8 a turn, hes ML 4 = 4 a turn, having 8 powers =/= generating 8 charges.
so 1544 pts all dedicated to generating charges, compared to 1544pts worth of guard/eldar/tau shooting, you are putting fewer models on the table then they will be taking off with good lists.
Loopstah wrote: Footguard would be a good counter too.
Oh you summoned 6 extra units in your psychic phase?
Shame I still have 300 more models on the board than you do.
That can ignore cover, shoot twice or snipe out your herads depending on how I feel.
really depends, if there is LOS blocking terrain they can sit there summoning all day.
If not they the horrors just gtg and have cursed earth popped so they have a nice cover save and a 4++ that rerolls 1s. Pretty hard to wipe off the board when they camp in their own deployment zone and you have to run up to get into lasgun range.
fateweaver does NOT get 8 a turn, hes ML 4 = 4 a turn, having 8 powers =/= generating 8 charges.
You're correct, but for the wrong reason. He is two PML4 Psykers (as stated in his entry). But in my excitement over that, I missed where it also specifies that he only generates 4WC. The specification is necessary, because without it he WOULD generate 8WC, since he IS two Psykers. Since it does specify that he only gets 4WC, he only gets 4WC.
fateweaver does NOT get 8 a turn, hes ML 4 = 4 a turn, having 8 powers =/= generating 8 charges.
You're correct, but for the wrong reason. He is two PML4 Psykers (as stated in his entry). But in my excitement over that, I missed where it also specifies that he only generates 4WC. The specification is necessary, because without it he WOULD generate 8WC, since he IS two Psykers. Since it does specify that he only gets 4WC, he only gets 4WC.
fair enough,
my point is though, if you get 2nd turn with a summon list, against any competent opponent who is shooty, or mobile, which is a lot of builds, even before this demon factory thing existed, you will lose, and you will lose badly.
enough armies can force 60+ wounds a turn on your 5++ demons that you will lose units, which throws a real kink in your plans. same with units that can move 18+ inches in one turn, you will crowd yourself out and not be able to summon.
So while demon factory might be a viable list, its not over the top op as some seem to think it is, there are some very hard counters to opponents who just want to crowd out their backfield, ignore midfeild/your side, and just DS unit after unit in their own side
I'm sorta in the same boat. I don't think that it will be quite as over-the-top as some of these early playtests have shown. I think they got a lot of lucky dice rolls, and perhaps some misunderstandings of the Psychic phase, that went into these "awesome" first games with Daemon Factories.
Have you played a game against a list like this? When you do, using one of your mobility counters, will you update this thread?
I'm also excited to see how GK do against Daemons. Losing Warp Quake in favour of Banishment means that they're even more tailored to fight Daemons, and less adaptable against other armies. I'd like to see this classic matchup go down in 7e.
easysauce wrote: Thats also not including problems due to DS mishaps.
If a conjuration power creates a unit from Codex: Chaos Daemons and that unit’s Army
List Entry includes the option to take an Icon of Chaos, an Instrument of Chaos and/or
the option to upgrade one model to a character, you may take any of these options for free
provided you have the appropriate model available.
Those icons prevent scatter, I'd imagine there'll be one or two in the list to start with to get the ball rolling.
Loopstah wrote:Shame I still have 300 more models on the board than you do.
That can ignore cover, shoot twice or snipe out your herads depending on how I feel.
Lol. Guard aren't tau. A couple of units get one of those abilities half the time. Until you kill those five guardsmen, after which point it doesn't even do that.
easysauce wrote:so 1544 pts all dedicated to generating charges, compared to 1544pts worth of guard/eldar/tau shooting, you are putting fewer models on the table then they will be taking off with good lists.
This.
Demon factory is a non-issue because all you're really doing is spending your points on making more dudes. 40k is a game of killing power, which an all-summoning army doesn't really have all that well.
Really, this has the same problem that respawning conscripts used to with the old guard codex. An infinite pile of more free dudes, but they were so expensive, and they did such little else than just show up with more bodies that respawning guard armies weren't actually all that powerful.
People who wanted to win with guard brought leafblowers and focused on killing stuff, not on an endless wave of conscripts that didn't kill all that much of anything. Demon factory lists will be no different. They'll be a fun little schtick, but it will fade quickly. The hyperventilating will cease once people actually play against it a few times.
The list isn't like those conscripts though, not when all the units also have offensive psychic powers If the daemons multiply fast enough the firepower they can put out gets a little overwhelming.
In general I agree that heavy firepower and various alpha strike lists will do just fine against the Clown Car, but I also think it's a still a viable tournament build. The Clown Car is still very much in it's infancy as an idea, and I think people will get a little more inventive with it as they add some variety to the list. Summoning other types of daemons is also something I think will add tactical flex to the list. It's not the game breaking thing people thought it was though, not by a ,long shot.
Everybody talking bout Banishment and such, my pink horrors laugh at your banishment attempts with their +1 to Deny the Witch and their 40 dispel dice.
Also, people need to realize Daemon Factory is actually better if you take some Divination spells for the Heralds, you want to get stuff like Precog, Misfortune and Fortune, which gets it down to a 3+ Invulnerable with Cursed Earth.
Also, they're deep striking units. Take an Icon of Chaos, then they don't scatter. Or just cast Cursed Earth.
Trust me, Daemons Scattering on Deep Strike is the last of the Chaos Daemon players concern.
What hurts this army specifically is BARRAGE WEAPONS. Like Mortars and Thunderfires. As they can pick out the Heralds.
Hollismason wrote: Everybody talking bout Banishment and such, my pink horrors laugh at your banishment attempts with their +1 to Deny the Witch and their 40 dispel dice.
Also, people need to realize Daemon Factory is actually better if you take some Divination spells for the Heralds, you want to get stuff like Precog, Misfortune and Fortune, which gets it down to a 3+ Invulnerable with Cursed Earth..
Whilst I agree that makes the list more powerful in a sense you are also sacrificing your ability to summon by doing so. You are using your dice pool and limiting the number of psykers that have access to the summoning chart, which makes it easier for me to know which guys to kill.
Bolter banner DA's in a Land raider with an allied contingent of 3 x Thunder fire cannons? something like that would tear through the T3 5++ Daemons and snipe out the Heralds?
I don't have a 7th ed book yet, so there might be a hole in my theory.
Dark Eldar with the Stormsurge formation. Torment Launchers on the Raiders. Include a Haemonculus in one of the Raiders with a Crucible of Malediction. Since the units don't scatter, you can guarantee that you will be in range. The Haemmy opens the Crucible first turn, requiring all the psykers within 3d6 of his Raider to pass a Ld (not Morale) test at a -4 or be removed with no saves.
Mostly all the troops that are spawned have objective secured. The daemon factory list is never going to win the kill points battle. Literally never. The objective battle however with reduced scatter neigh indefinite deep striking troops well thats a different story.
Hollismason wrote: Everybody talking bout Banishment and such, my pink horrors laugh at your banishment attempts with their +1 to Deny the Witch and their 40 dispel dice.
Also, people need to realize Daemon Factory is actually better if you take some Divination spells for the Heralds, you want to get stuff like Precog, Misfortune and Fortune, which gets it down to a 3+ Invulnerable with Cursed Earth..
Whilst I agree that makes the list more powerful in a sense you are also sacrificing your ability to summon by doing so. You are using your dice pool and limiting the number of psykers that have access to the summoning chart, which makes it easier for me to know which guys to kill.
Bolter banner DA's in a Land raider with an allied contingent of 3 x Thunder fire cannons? something like that would tear through the T3 5++ Daemons and snipe out the Heralds?
Not really two Herald's with full on access to Divination is plenty. Even one if you roll well. Most of Divination is Warp Charge one.
Also, don't forget they do have Flickering fire and Misfortune turns it into a very very powerful spell when you shoot at a unit. That's the point people are missing you shouldn't just be summoning Daemons every single turn but also using Flickering Fire and things like Misfortune to damage other armies.
Need some other support? Okay I use Sacrifice to summon a Herald of Slaanesh and take a level 1 Mastery in Telepathy. Oh i got a crappy roll on Telepathy? Okay Psychic Scream.
Okay I'm just going to roll up and write up a Daemon Factory thread.
Elric Greywolf wrote: I'm sorta in the same boat. I don't think that it will be quite as over-the-top as some of these early playtests have shown. I think they got a lot of lucky dice rolls, and perhaps some misunderstandings of the Psychic phase, that went into these "awesome" first games with Daemon Factories.
Have you played a game against a list like this? When you do, using one of your mobility counters, will you update this thread?
I'm also excited to see how GK do against Daemons. Losing Warp Quake in favour of Banishment means that they're even more tailored to fight Daemons, and less adaptable against other armies. I'd like to see this classic matchup go down in 7e.
a buddy of mine who does tourneys is makeing a "demon factory" list as brokenly broken as he can for me monday, I will try to do a half arsed bat rep for you all.
I will be using the same list I have at 1750 for tourneys against him as pre 7th.
I will let dakka decide,
POLL ADDED
GK's IG or ORKS, I have 1750 lists I made for TAC,
Use a wagon full of boys to stick a large multi assault. Then use truk boys and manz to assault with full charge bonus and rack up combat res for instability.
As a Guard player I wouldn't be too worried about the daemon factory. I can fit twelve wyverns into a list and still have ~800 points to spend on a gak ton of troops to act as a buffer.
The Daemon Factories' capabilities all rely on surviving long enough to multiply, hence massive alpha-strikes will be its bane and daemon players have to plan accordingly.
And as Ailaros said, the Guard excel at putting down massive firepower downrange at the start of the game.
Brainstormed this list while taking a dump a few minutes ago:
I mean, if you just wanted to be a tailoring mega dick. Then again, if someone was going to be enough of a dick to use a factory list against you in the first place...
I mean, if you just wanted to be a tailoring mega dick. Then again, if someone was going to be enough of a dick to use a factory list against you in the first place...
This is beautiful, well done. Could you fit in 9 servo skulls somehow to reduce scatter as well?
BlaxicanX wrote: As a Guard player I wouldn't be too worried about the daemon factory. I can fit twelve wyverns into a list and still have ~800 points to spend on a gak ton of troops to act as a buffer.
The Daemon Factories' capabilities all rely on surviving long enough to multiply, hence massive alpha-strikes will be its bane and daemon players have to plan accordingly.
And as Ailaros said, the Guard excel at putting down massive firepower downrange at the start of the game.
Brainstormed this list while taking a dump a few minutes ago:
I mean, if you just wanted to be a tailoring mega dick. Then again, if someone was going to be enough of a dick to use a factory list against you in the first place...
As someone who's been wanting to start guard for a while but isn't experienced in any way with them, don't platoons have to take at least two squads of regular infantry?
As someone who's been wanting to start guard for a while but isn't experienced in any way with them, don't platoons have to take at least two squads of regular infantry?
You might be right. I don't have the codex on hand to confirm or deny.
None of you poll options are good matchups, since those armies can use list building to counter deamon factory rather easily. Use Tau, Eldar, Vanilla Marines, DA, BA, Sisters. as 100% pure armies like most people play, you can even list build against deamons. Now lets see how your tactics works out.
Dark Eldar with the Stormsurge formation. Torment Launchers on the Raiders. Include a Haemonculus in one of the Raiders with a Crucible of Malediction. Since the units don't scatter, you can guarantee that you will be in range. The Haemmy opens the Crucible first turn, requiring all the psykers within 3d6 of his Raider to pass a Ld (not Morale) test at a -4 or be removed with no saves.
Pretty sure that all flies.
The stormsurge formation is a little crazy to say the least. Add in an allied farseer with Telepathy and you have more LD things to chuck out.
None of you poll options are good matchups, since those armies can use list building to counter deamon factory rather easily. Use Tau, Eldar, Vanilla Marines, DA, BA, Sisters. as 100% pure armies like most people play, you can even list build against deamons. Now lets see how your tactics works out.
1: all three matchups are just fine
2: every single codex can "list tailor" for things like this, the 3 selected are selected because they are the armies I actually own, and have 1750 TAC tournament lists made up for. I am not tailoring any of them to be anti demon. The whole point of this is to take a normal tournament list and see how it matches up.
3: if you are under the impression that "most people play" non allied tau/eldar... wtf I love your meta, taudar may as well have its own codex here.
4:wtf?!? you expect me to own every army...
the only "bad" matchup, if any, is the GK vs demons because people will whine and moan that GK only won because they are GK, or if they lose they will whine about how op Dfactory is. IN actuallity, I see GK as being the worst choice if I want to win, seeing as how I will not get any of the powers off that GK rely on, and they have to pay a lot of pts for a small # of models, with less alpha strike capability then tau/eldar/IG/DE and dont have the resiliance of orks.
I'm starting to brainstorm on how to beat a D-Factory list. Not really sure why, as I'm not so sure I'll ever actually face one.
Most competent opponents aren't just going to spam more horrors. They will spam horrors to cast, demonettes or Bloodletters to fight or plague bearers to camp on objectives.
I'm less worried about the raw summoning potential and far more worried about the sheer utility of it all. You can literally create an answer for almost every tactical situation out of thin air.
Which leads me to counters. I think (obviously) it's going to be important to focus on the things that can reliably generate WC's, like heralds (already mentioned) and horrors. I'm noticing we don't have to wipe the horror units, only hurt them. I see a lot of lists with 11-12 horrors, meaning you can significantly hinder their power by killing between 1-7 horrors, which shouldn't be to hard. Use your low power, massed shots (bolters, las guns) to put wounds on the horror units and use alpha-strike or precision fire to hunt heralds or casting greater demons.
To me it becomes slightly less overwhelming to think about putting 6 wounds on a demons squad rather than 6. We don't so much have to eradicate their ability to cast, just limit it's potential.
BlaxicanX wrote: As a Guard player I wouldn't be too worried about the daemon factory. I can fit twelve wyverns into a list and still have ~800 points to spend on a gak ton of troops to act as a buffer.
The Daemon Factories' capabilities all rely on surviving long enough to multiply, hence massive alpha-strikes will be its bane and daemon players have to plan accordingly.
And as Ailaros said, the Guard excel at putting down massive firepower downrange at the start of the game.
Brainstormed this list while taking a dump a few minutes ago:
I mean, if you just wanted to be a tailoring mega dick. Then again, if someone was going to be enough of a dick to use a factory list against you in the first place...
Is this list legal according to his parameters? I thought he said single FOC. The demon list could also take a bastion and hide all the heralds inside making your wyverns next to useless for sniping turn one. Its clever but it also blows against a number of other matches. I'd rather see a list that can handle marines, chaos, other guard and eldar as well.
godswildcard wrote: I'm starting to brainstorm on how to beat a D-Factory list. Not really sure why, as I'm not so sure I'll ever actually face one.
Most competent opponents aren't just going to spam more horrors. They will spam horrors to cast, demonettes or Bloodletters to fight or plague bearers to camp on objectives.
I think the theory is that, because Horrors are so easy to kill, if they STOP summoning more Horrors, it will be an easy task to kill them off and there by deny them the warp charges they need to operate. If they summon Bloodletters and let you kill the Horrors, then they may as well have just started with Bloodletters and not wasted time painting up the li'l pink devils to begin with.
And in a bastion for all the heralds means only one summon atempt as only one unit can go in a building and a unit can only attempt one of each power they have. Again reducing the ammount they can summon.
oh buildings also have hull points and a painful damage table all hits (from the table) at s6 so iding the heralds. Thinking on it if they go in a bastion its a plus for there opponant.
AS to the IG list with 4 squads of wyverns, no thats not a "legal" list as all tournaments are basically going to stick with a single FOC and allies.
but replace the 4th unit of wyverns with somethign else, its still a decent list.
looking like guard is ahead in the polls,
This is my 1750, NOT tailored to beat D-factory list, its from memory so I might be off a bit with pts or something. I might mod it a bit, since technically its a 6th ed list, and things changed in 7th, so I wont be unescessarily handicapping myself by keeping it optimized for 6th instead of 7th. again, optomizing it for 7th, NOT tailoring it for demons.
CCS in chimera x 2, all sniper specials
2 preists
2 INQ codex inquisitors
3 psykers
PCS
50 infantry
50 conscripts
4 las cannon HWS
2 autocannon HWS
2nd PCS
20 guard
autocannon HWS
heavy:
3 lemen russ eradicators, 2 with bolter sponsons
1 basilisk
1 basilisk
IIRC that adds up to ~1750,
Ill likely be moving some stuff around, moving some HWS weapons into the guard infantry units to better use orders and provide more durability for the HWT's,
I have also been thinking about dropping the HWS's all together and moving those PT's into hellhounds and or flyers since I am sick of them being instagibbed all the time.
also thinking of dropping all the psykers, as before they were all just precience bots, now that that is so much harder to do, I might change it around so they are more just LD bots, beatsticks or something more reliable/usfull in 7th against all other armies.
again, ill probably throw those pts into more tanks (basilisks most likely) or flyers and or melta SWS's in the flyers
The idea is a guard aplha strike, with lots of stuff able to barrage fire out of LOS behind the av14 wall of russes, and have 100+ GI's to bubble wrap my vehicles to prevent close combat units from rolling into them.
as well has have enough melta that I can place behind knights if needed (knights are in the tournament meta here)
Is this list legal according to his parameters? I thought he said single FOC. The demon list could also take a bastion and hide all the heralds inside making your wyverns next to useless for sniping turn one. Its clever but it also blows against a number of other matches. I'd rather see a list that can handle marines, chaos, other guard and eldar as well.
It's single FOC. The fourth wyvern squadron is allied in.
Yeah, it's not a TAC list at all. Like I said, it's tailored.
I wouldn't be too concerned about the bastion, honestly. If he wants to hide them in there all game, fine. I'll murder everything he has not inside the bastion, and take control of the table. With most if not all his 20-man horror squads dead within the first two turns of the game, he'll be generating around 12-20 WC's a turn; his daemon factory will be a lot less scary under those circumstances.
Something to keep in mind is that he still needs to actually win the game, which you can only do by either out-killing your opponent or outscoring him on objectives. If he's spending all his WC's making new daemon squads then he's not spending enough to reliably get those flickering fires off, and he can't conjure enough Daemons to flood the objectives with the rate at which my ranged firepower will be putting his squads down.
Skullhammer wrote: And in a bastion for all the heralds means only one summon atempt as only one unit can go in a building and a unit can only attempt one of each power they have. Again reducing the ammount they can summon.
oh buildings also have hull points and a painful damage table all hits (from the table) at s6 so iding the heralds. Thinking on it if they go in a bastion its a plus for there opponant.
cannot cast anything that is not a witch fire from a building/vehicle FYI,
so no go on putting demons inside and trying to summon
Skullhammer wrote: And in a bastion for all the heralds means only one summon atempt as only one unit can go in a building and a unit can only attempt one of each power they have. Again reducing the ammount they can summon.
While the Psychic section is a bit vague and confusing, this is a misunderstanding of it. Here's the post that helped me understand....
Scott-S6 wrote: If they [an IC Psyker joined to another Psyker/Brother] count as a psyker unit then that doesn't work because you select the unit to manifest a power - not an individual psyker. You then have no mechanism to assign perils to a model.
So, if they want to play it that way then you can't cast the same power twice but you are now immune to perils.
As such it's implied that regular pskyers are treated individually while units with brotherhood of psykers are treated collectively but the wording is extremely vague.
Skullhammer wrote: And in a bastion for all the heralds means only one summon atempt as only one unit can go in a building and a unit can only attempt one of each power they have. Again reducing the ammount they can summon.
While the Psychic section is a bit vague and confusing, this is a misunderstanding of it. Here's the post that helped me understand....
Scott-S6 wrote: If they [an IC Psyker joined to another Psyker/Brother] count as a psyker unit then that doesn't work because you select the unit to manifest a power - not an individual psyker. You then have no mechanism to assign perils to a model.
So, if they want to play it that way then you can't cast the same power twice but you are now immune to perils.
As such it's implied that regular pskyers are treated individually while units with brotherhood of psykers are treated collectively but the wording is extremely vague.
except heralds are ic's and join each other into a unit. Anyway as i forgot and mentioned earlier only witch fires can be used out of buildings.
Is this list legal according to his parameters? I thought he said single FOC. The demon list could also take a bastion and hide all the heralds inside making your wyverns next to useless for sniping turn one. Its clever but it also blows against a number of other matches. I'd rather see a list that can handle marines, chaos, other guard and eldar as well.
It's single FOC. The fourth wyvern squadron is allied in.
Yeah, it's not a TAC list at all. Like I said, it's tailored.
Is this list legal according to his parameters? I thought he said single FOC. The demon list could also take a bastion and hide all the heralds inside making your wyverns next to useless for sniping turn one. Its clever but it also blows against a number of other matches. I'd rather see a list that can handle marines, chaos, other guard and eldar as well.
It's single FOC. The fourth wyvern squadron is allied in.
Yeah, it's not a TAC list at all. Like I said, it's tailored.
cant ally with yourself sorry
I was under the impression that in 7th all armies are battle-brothers with themselves and can be taken as multiple detachments.
Skullhammer wrote: And in a bastion for all the heralds means only one summon atempt as only one unit can go in a building and a unit can only attempt one of each power they have. Again reducing the ammount they can summon.
oh buildings also have hull points and a painful damage table all hits (from the table) at s6 so iding the heralds. Thinking on it if they go in a bastion its a plus for there opponant.
could they be putting the new heralds(which are summoned as a lone model) be summmoned in the building?
Is this list legal according to his parameters? I thought he said single FOC. The demon list could also take a bastion and hide all the heralds inside making your wyverns next to useless for sniping turn one. Its clever but it also blows against a number of other matches. I'd rather see a list that can handle marines, chaos, other guard and eldar as well.
It's single FOC. The fourth wyvern squadron is allied in.
Yeah, it's not a TAC list at all. Like I said, it's tailored.
cant ally with yourself sorry
I was under the impression that in 7th all armies are battle-brothers with themselves and can be taken as multiple detachments.
is that not the case?
unbound is a thing, but no tournament will use it, at least around here, same with unlimited FOCs, hence the assumption you only get one FOC + an allied one.
im 99% sure the BRB explicitly states no "playing with yourself" allies ill 2x check when I get back but it should be there
Skullhammer wrote: And in a bastion for all the heralds means only one summon atempt as only one unit can go in a building and a unit can only attempt one of each power they have. Again reducing the ammount they can summon.
oh buildings also have hull points and a painful damage table all hits (from the table) at s6 so iding the heralds. Thinking on it if they go in a bastion its a plus for there opponant.
could they be putting the new heralds(which are summoned as a lone model) be summmoned in the building?
A: psykers in buildings/vehicles cant cast powers that are not witchfires
b: you cannot deep strike into a vehicle/building, so no summoning into one either as you arrive via DS
Conjured units arrive via deepstrike, so you can't summon them *into* a building. You'd have to deep-strike them outside, then have them move into it in the following movement phase.
unbound is a thing, but no tournament will use it, at least around here, same with unlimited FOCs, hence the assumption you only get one FOC + an allied one.
im 99% sure the BRB explicitly states no "playing with yourself" allies ill 2x check when I get back but it should be there
I'm not talking about unbound, I'm talking about Battle-forged armies.
You can take "an unlimited number of detachments" in a battle forged army, From the attachment selection chapter:
You can include any number and type of Detachments in a Battle-forged army provided you have sufficient units. Simply select a type of Detachment and organise some or all of your units so that they fit within the restrictions and limitations detailed on that particular Detachment.
The specification is that an allied detachment can not be of the same faction as your primary detachment. So you're right that you technically can not ally with yourself. However, you can have an unlimited number of combined-arms detachments, and if you take more than one, your additonal CA detachments are allowed to be the same faction as your primary detachment. So you technically can ally with yourself, but you just have to follow the Combined-arms FOC instead of the allied FOC, meaning I need to have one HQ and two troops choices instead of the allied FOC's one HQ and one troops choice.
Here's what an updated, legal list would look like:
Skullhammer wrote: And in a bastion for all the heralds means only one summon atempt as only one unit can go in a building and a unit can only attempt one of each power they have. Again reducing the ammount they can summon.
While the Psychic section is a bit vague and confusing, this is a misunderstanding of it. Here's the post that helped me understand....
Scott-S6 wrote: If they [an IC Psyker joined to another Psyker/Brother] count as a psyker unit then that doesn't work because you select the unit to manifest a power - not an individual psyker. You then have no mechanism to assign perils to a model.
So, if they want to play it that way then you can't cast the same power twice but you are now immune to perils.
As such it's implied that regular pskyers are treated individually while units with brotherhood of psykers are treated collectively but the wording is extremely vague.
except heralds are ic's and join each other into a unit. Anyway as i forgot and mentioned earlier only witch fires can be used out of buildings.
Three Tzeentch Heralds all attached to a unit of Pink Horrors. Please explain: 1. Whether the Pink Horrors could, at that point, cast a power known to one of the Tzeralds. 2. How you would resolve a Perils if one of the Psykers rolled a double 6. Use some quotations from the BRB in your explanation.
easysauce wrote: yeah blax, legally, you can bring anything you want via unbound, or as many FOC's as you want.
It's not an unbound list, Sauce. It's a battle-forged list. You can take as many detachments as you want in a battle-forged army.
Unbound has nothing to do with my list. In Unbound, everything you take counts as a single, Primary detachment. Battle-forged armies have a Primary Detachment and an unlimited number of secondary detachments, Unbound armies have only a primary detachment which has no FOC.
From the rulebook:
BATTLE FORGED ARMIES A player using the Battle-forged method must organise all the units they want to use into Detachments. Detachments are made up of units that conform to various requirements. For example, one common type of Detachment requires the use of at least one HQ unit and two Troops units
SELECTING DETACHMENTS You can include any number and type of Detachments in a Battle-forged army provided you have sufficient units. Simply select a type of Detachment and organise some or all of your units so that they fit within the restrictions and limitations detailed on that particular Detachment. Later in this section you will find the Combined Arms Detachment and the Allied Detachment. Both of these can be used with any army. Each Detachment is split into three sections: Force Organisation Chart, Restrictions and Command Benefits.
What he's saying is that tournaments won't allow it. The rules also allow you to take more than one Combined Arms Detachment and they DON'T have to be the same faction as your primary. You can have a CAD of Tyranids mixed with a CAD of Grey Knights and a CAD of Daemons if you wanted.
Essentially, allying means little now. Tournaments probably aren't going to allow such builds.
I doubt tournaments are going to care about the set-up of battleforged armies, personally. The fluff heresy aside, I don't think tournaments are going to prevent you from taking a Battle-Forged Grey Knights army with allied Tyranids and Daemons. It's stupid, but it isn't more broken then some of the things they've been allowing for years, like 2+ re-rollable saves.
I believe the best answer will be artillery. Inorder to summon a unit they have to roll 6 dice on average to make sure they get it they will roll 8, they should perils often. I mean get out 6-8 dice and roll it 3 - 4 times and watch how often you perils. Heralds have only 2 wounds so once they perils a single artillery hit should do the rest, or you can use the order that makes your shots precision shots to accomplish something similar.
I don't understand how msu daemons is all of a sudden a threat?
I still don't see how this is going to require anything special to handle it. Demon factory is nothing but a foot horde. Is anybody else seriously afraid of any other foot hordes?
If you can handle a green tide or a foot guard horde, there's nothing that should make you so much as bat an eye.
I've played plenty of horde army, and have seen on many, many an occasion just how quickly you can have models thrown off the board. It's not going to be a matter of if your opponent can spawn more dudes faster than you can kill them, but a matter of if your opponent can actually get units anywhere to do any damage before they're just tabled.
The moment you kill dudes faster than your opponent can spawn them, the moment the demon army quickly begins to collapse.
Ailaros wrote: I still don't see how this is going to require anything special to handle it. Demon factory is nothing but a foot horde. Is anybody else seriously afraid of any other foot hordes?
If you can handle a green tide or a foot guard horde, there's nothing that should make you so much as bat an eye.
I've played plenty of horde army, and have seen on many, many an occasion just how quickly you can have models thrown off the board. It's not going to be a matter of if your opponent can spawn more dudes faster than you can kill them, but a matter of if your opponent can actually get units anywhere to do any damage before they're just tabled.
The moment you kill dudes faster than your opponent can spawn them, the moment the demon army quickly begins to collapse.
But how will we beat Asterix and Obelisk without letting them think the sky is falling.
I want to try and face the daemon factory, at least once before I pass judgement on it.
Ailaros wrote: I still don't see how this is going to require anything special to handle it. Demon factory is nothing but a foot horde. Is anybody else seriously afraid of any other foot hordes?
If you can handle a green tide or a foot guard horde, there's nothing that should make you so much as bat an eye.
I've played plenty of horde army, and have seen on many, many an occasion just how quickly you can have models thrown off the board. It's not going to be a matter of if your opponent can spawn more dudes faster than you can kill them, but a matter of if your opponent can actually get units anywhere to do any damage before they're just tabled.
The moment you kill dudes faster than your opponent can spawn them, the moment the demon army quickly begins to collapse.
Hey, if you think you can kill 60 models per turn, all the power to you. Just don't target the ones Be'lakor is making invisible... cause yeah, those ones aren't dying.
to the above... you are not getting 60 models a turn, even with everything dedicated to summons... stop making up #'s like that based off one bat rep where demons make every single summon roll... even ones that had a 12% chance to go off...
and yes, 40-60+ models a turn is very very doable by most leaf blower armies like tau eldar and guard, ESP since the demons are low T with bad saves.
not to mention that you aplha strike can/will cripple their summoning powers if you do your job and prioritize targets.
easysauce wrote: to the above... you are not getting 60 models a turn, even with everything dedicated to summons... stop making up #'s like that based off one bat rep where demons make every single summon roll... even ones that had a 12% chance to go off...
See, if you say things like this, it just goes to show you're theorycrafting rather than actually testing. You're not believable unless you've actually played against daemons, part of the reason this entire topic is worthless. The lists I've created and fought against can conjure up 38 warp charges per turn. If I split those evenly, you're looking at 7+ warp charges devoted to each summoning attempt. Perils? Feth perils. You lose a single pink horror every time one perils, and it's unlikely to begin with in a daemon army. Once pink horrors start summoning pink horrors, you're getting way more daemon summoning power per turn, it ramps up in effectiveness turn after turn unless you can cripple it from the beginning.
But let's talk about that crippling attempt of yours... with a single toe in any ruins, Be'lakor is essentially invincible on his own, but then he starts casting Invisibility. Have you ever attempt to leaf-blow an invisible Daemon unit? Good luck on that. This even assumes you're playing against a friendly Daemon Factory devoted to summoning, not one of the unfriendly ones devoted to Possession. They typically carry Fateweaver with them. Have you ever fought an invisible Fateweaver before? It's not an experience I recommend trying. He is impossible to kill.
By all means, attempt an alpha strike. Not everyone plays with zero terrain on the field and no objectives to go after. Heck, one game at our store, the guy playing Daemons had horrible luck rolling his summons. But it didn't matter because he still won just by controlling the most objectives, tying up the enemy army with just enough summoned nuisances to stall him. If you think you can stop these armies using these tactics, then DO IT. But please... don't patronize the rest of us with different experiences. There's a single topic on this forum claiming Daemons are not a threat and countless more stating the opposite. Play it yourself and come up with an informed decision.
But let's talk about that crippling attempt of yours... with a single toe in any ruins, Be'lakor is essentially invincible on his own,
sorry, why am I shooting at the one or two units with inviisbility or cover saves again?
instead of the low hanging fruit?
also, was all the "ignores cover stuff" magically dissapeared in 7th... i think not.
I guess if the guy you play against is really bad at the game and wants to waste all his shooting on the toughest unit to kill... but thats not a problem with D factory.
if you are casting 6 summons on 6-7 dice, using up 36-42 WC's, how are you also casting two invis on 4+ dice each... getting a bit carried away with your sky is falling crazyness there my man.
not to mention, how are you shooting anything with your witchfires without WC's...
also, you only get one shot with the pink horrors to summon, at some point, a herald or non BOP's is going to have to make the roll, perils does in fact matter. even if a pink horror perils, its one model down, in what is likely a MSU, can force a morale/instability check, and can even blow up the rest of the unit, or make him FORGET A SPELL/lose warp charges.
add to this the fact that I am guaranteed to be removing models, let alone sniping and barraging out your biggest WC" producers like heralds, and you are essentially trying to spawn more units per turn then I can kill, and not hurting me at all while doing it.
add to this that any mobile army can crowd out your table edge and totally shut down your summons,
as for playing against demons... did you not notice the poll? expect a bat rep next week.
Kyutaru wrote:You're not believable unless you've actually played against daemons, part of the reason this entire topic is worthless.
Firstly, that's a fallacy. Several of them, in fact.
Secondly, what makes demons different than any other foot list?
Because a demon factory is going to be going up against missileside tau, and shuriken spam eldar, and venom/splinter spam DE, and FRF lasguns backed up by punishers. The list goes on and on and on of armies that can easily throw away whatever flimsy units you're spawning. I used to play INFINITELY RESPAWNING guard, and that still didn't cut it, and old conscripts didn't rely on units summoning them.
You just have to look at the numbers to see the kinds of killing power problems going both ways that a demon army has. Of course, you can use fallacies to dismiss objective reality all you want, but that won't change it.
Kyutaru wrote:You're not believable unless you've actually played against daemons, part of the reason this entire topic is worthless.
Firstly, that's a fallacy. Several of them, in fact.
Secondly, what makes demons different than any other foot list?
Because a demon factory is going to be going up against missileside tau, and shuriken spam eldar, and venom/splinter spam DE, and FRF lasguns backed up by punishers. The list goes on and on and on of armies that can easily throw away whatever flimsy units you're spawning. I used to play INFINITELY RESPAWNING guard, and that still didn't cut it, and old conscripts didn't rely on units summoning them.
You just have to look at the numbers to see the kinds of killing power problems going both ways that a demon army has. Of course, you can use fallacies to dismiss objective reality all you want, but that won't change it.
What separates Daemon Factory from respawning Guard or Tyranids/Tervigons/Scarab swarm is that they can spawn most units in their codex and that they can have the spawned units spawn more things.
It'd be like if Tervigons could birth more Tervigons (ignoring the looney toons physics needed for that).
Now anyone who can kill foot hordes can kill an exponentially growing sea of horrors too. Just make sure you get them quickly before their side of the board is nothing but an endless ocean of pink with flecks of blue LoCs and Daemon Princes.
But it's not exponentially growing. It only does that in a complete vacuum where your opponent refuses to hurt your units.
And remember, that exponent curve cuts both ways. If you can quickly put the hurt on the demon player, he will fold just as quickly as he will blossom if left alone.
Most 16x horror units won't last more then three CC phases with basic CC units like scorpions or assault marines. Add some shooting on the way in and you are likely to eliminate the unit in 2.
Now you need 9 dice to get a summon off reliably. So three units of horrors allow you to summon one unit each turn. So the 6 units will generate two units each turn if unopposed.
Horrors are still approximately the cost of a Assault Marine, right? So you could easily face 6x assault marine squads plus some support by turn 2.
So on turn 2, your 8 horror units (6+2 summoned) get 2-3 more summoned units, then you lose 6. So now for turn 3, you are down to 5 squads and the potential to lose another 6.
40 dice is only enough for 4-5 summonings. You also are taking 2 perils each turn. Can you out summon the damage? If the dice are with you perhaps, but it is by no means assured.
Ailaros wrote: Because a demon factory is going to be going up against missileside tau, and shuriken spam eldar, and venom/splinter spam DE, and FRF lasguns backed up by punishers. The list goes on and on and on of armies that can easily throw away whatever flimsy units you're spawning. I used to play INFINITELY RESPAWNING guard, and that still didn't cut it, and old conscripts didn't rely on units summoning them.
So... more theorycrafting is your response. Gotcha.
If I need assistance inventing new vacuum techniques to use against hypothetical daemon players, I'll hit you up. Experience counts a lot more currently. This isn't debate class either, just a forum where opinions are dropped, so all the fallacious claims in the world aren't going to make your side any more realistic, rather they'll decrease the chances of them being taken seriously. Attempting to depose my stance when it's founded in actual gameplay doesn't make your argument any better.
Kyutaru wrote:So... more theorycrafting is your response. Gotcha.
It's a basic deconstruction of the rules.
I mean, are you saying that missileside tau doesn't exist, or that there are no armies with FRF lasguns, or that DE players don't take splinter spam?
The game allows you to do things that can easily tackle a demon factory. You just need to read the rules to be able to see that it is true. If you insist on subjectivity, then all I can ask is how many anecdotes you need to see to be convinced that something which is possible is, in fact, possible?
I play tyranid as a main, and I can't really see a counter to this deamon factory, which means I have at least 2 codex's that my army is useless against.
That god I bought an AM list, or I'd be completely out of this game for this expansion.
Honestly, been hearing a lot of good things about warmachine, was thinking about trying to start it up, think my local gaming store is probably going to be moving away from 40k anyhow, since it seems like there selling practices have gotten worse and very few people have been playing recently (alot have moved on the playing MTG)
So far, we've seen Daemon Factory lists winning. Unless you tailor to beat them, I doubt you stand much of a chance.
I think it's broken, but let's just stay in a hold pattern until more battle reports come out.
And I mean battle reports that don't involve the random cards of "I drew a better first hand, thus I win!" Because almost every report using them has said they're garbage.
Durandal wrote: Most 16x horror units won't last more then three CC phases with basic CC units like scorpions or assault marines. Add some shooting on the way in and you are likely to eliminate the unit in 2.
Now you need 9 dice to get a summon off reliably. So three units of horrors allow you to summon one unit each turn. So the 6 units will generate two units each turn if unopposed. (you cant cast the same power, one unit, gets ONE chance to summon per turn, if it fails, thats it, done)
Horrors are still approximately the cost of a Assault Marine, right? So you could easily face 6x assault marine squads plus some support by turn 2.
So on turn 2, your 8 horror units (6+2 summoned) get 2-3 more summoned units, then you lose 6. So now for turn 3, you are down to 5 squads and the potential to lose another 6.
40 dice is only enough for 4-5 summonings. You also are taking 2 perils each turn. Can you out summon the damage? If the dice are with you perhaps, but it is by no means assured.
just FYI, its actually worse for the D factory then you think, cant summon more then one unit per unit, you only get one shot to manifest a power.
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Sorris wrote: I play tyranid as a main, and I can't really see a counter to this deamon factory, which means I have at least 2 codex's that my army is useless against.
That god I bought an AM list, or I'd be completely out of this game for this expansion.
Honestly, been hearing a lot of good things about warmachine, was thinking about trying to start it up, think my local gaming store is probably going to be moving away from 40k anyhow, since it seems like there selling practices have gotten worse and very few people have been playing recently (alot have moved on the playing MTG)
what?
nids are one of the best counters to this.. you have loads of cheap, fast flyers like gargoyles to swamp the demons table side with to prevent summonng, you have lots of large rate of fire guns, on flying MC's no less, who also have huge bases to swamp the demons table side with, again, preventing summoning....
he is EITHER shooting you with those WC's or summoning, he cant do both UBER well... his perils will also be much worse due to your SITW...
I think you are jumping to a false conclusion, NIDS are one of the best lists to counter this.
But let's talk about that crippling attempt of yours... with a single toe in any ruins, Be'lakor is essentially invincible on his own, but then he starts casting Invisibility. Have you ever attempt to leaf-blow an invisible Daemon unit? Good luck on that. This even assumes you're playing against a friendly Daemon Factory devoted to summoning, not one of the unfriendly ones devoted to Possession. They typically carry Fateweaver with them. Have you ever fought an invisible Fateweaver before? It's not an experience I recommend trying. He is impossible to kill.
By all means, attempt an alpha strike. Not everyone plays with zero terrain on the field and no objectives to go after. Heck, one game at our store, the guy playing Daemons had horrible luck rolling his summons. But it didn't matter because he still won just by controlling the most objectives, tying up the enemy army with just enough summoned nuisances to stall him. If you think you can stop these armies using these tactics, then DO IT. But please... don't patronize the rest of us with different experiences. There's a single topic on this forum claiming Daemons are not a threat and countless more stating the opposite. Play it yourself and come up with an informed decision.
The daemon factory has a lot of units. they cant all have invisibility. Shoot the units of horrors that don't have invis and their warp change, and units capable of summoning without caring about perils decreases dramatically.
At ~1500-1850 a Deamon Factory will likely average around 36WC/Turn.
With 6 Dice you have a ~2/3 chance of success and ~1/4 chance of perils.
6 Attempts yields on average 4 Summoned units which bring an additional 4 WC or another 1/3 Unit.
Pumping Summoning an average Daemon factory pumps out ~300pt/turn focusing their entire army on Summoning and averaged ~1 Perils/Turn.
Denying a 3WC power is nigh impossible, so save all those Deny dice for Sacrifice which is by far the nastiest Summoning power on the list as it brings in 2WC.
No double up castings of Summoning per unit, nor any power. Which means Heralds may not be hiding within the Horrors if they intend to manifest summoning powers.
Now, I haven't gotten to put the models on the table and face a Daemon Factory yet, but I see many points of possible failure with the mainstays facing fast assault or shooty armies, getting second turn, and a low offensive potential.
IMO I've far less worried about Daemon Factory than I was of the nasty ScreamerStar and Flying Circus builds which have now taken a major hit.
exergy, you might want to fix the quotes in your post two above this one lol
to the post directly above, exactly! so many ways for d factory to go wrong, and even when it goes right, a competent opponent will either be removing more models then you add each turn, or will use mobility to shut down your summoning completly.
See, if you say things like this, it just goes to show you're theorycrafting rather than actually testing. You're not believable unless you've actually played against daemons, part of the reason this entire topic is worthless. The lists I've created and fought against can conjure up 38 warp charges per turn. If I split those evenly, you're looking at 7+ warp charges devoted to each summoning attempt. Perils? Feth perils. You lose a single pink horror every time one perils, and it's unlikely to begin with in a daemon army. Once pink horrors start summoning pink horrors, you're getting way more daemon summoning power per turn, it ramps up in effectiveness turn after turn unless you can cripple it from the beginning.
Ok lets do theoryhammer and make it simple, if you have a unit of 16 horrors I have to kill 6 to turn 3 warp charges to 1 warp charge. WIth drop pods, barrage, smart missiles this should not be hard to do. If you are using heralds then most of my fire power is going into that squad especially when its most likely in a squad of horrors(2 for 1). Heralds have 2 wounds if you are rolling 6-9 dice to summon more daemons you will perils leaving you with one wound and in danger of barrage.
Offensively what does the daemon factory has going for itself, it needs to kill stuff right?
I don't have to kill all your horrors I just have to kill a handful to reduce your warp charge pool, I think a Tau or IG gun line can kill 18 horrors from 3 different squads in 1 turn, which turns 9 warp charges into 3.
Against cc armies your small conjured squads have to fight for objectives against dedicated cc units and we both know how daemonic instability works, which means you are in danger of losing multiple units in one charge.
The whole point is yes they can have 30+ warp charges but your 6 t 3 models away from reducing it down. Once you have reduce all the big squads to only one warp charge each they literally will have to have 6 horror squads on the board to have enough warp charges to on average summon another squad. 4 lv 3 heralds mean you have 12 dice which means 2 summons worth of warp charges. Its not theoryhammer its stats.
Just going to point out that everyone talking about " Needing 9 dice reliably".
Yeah uh.. no.
Blue Scribes can cast a spell for free.
Chaos Sorcerers with a Spell Familiar can reroll failures. Oh and Crimson Slaughter can make that guy a Daemon. So yeah . ... NO. Or just take a Daemon Prince.
Getting spells off is the least of the armies worries.
Hollismason wrote: Just going to point out that everyone talking about " Needing 9 dice reliably".
Yeah uh.. no.
Blue Scribes can cast a spell for free.
Chaos Sorcerers with a Spell Familiar can reroll failures. Oh and Crimson Slaughter can make that guy a Daemon. So yeah . ... NO. Or just take a Daemon Prince.
Getting spells off is the least of the armies worries.
That's because most of the suggestions in here are coming from people who don't own half the books their talking about. It really shows.
Barraging heralds isn't as easy as you'd think, putting them in chariots or buildings solves this real easy and the chariots are awesome now. Slaanesh heralds would be choice number one for me if I played demons. Ignoring wyverns, fast and adding more invisibility attempts? Yes please.
all summoning attempts should come from horrors anyway so perils is a joke.
I don't think the list is that much a problem if you play reasonable point levels. At 1500 pretty much all the worst offenders in this edition vanish or become much more tame.
Y'all keep claiming that Psyker ICs in a BoP unit will have severely limited casting ability.
If you are correct, then you can, I'm sure, easily answer a few simple questions. Three Tzeentch Heralds all attached to a unit of Pink Horrors. Please explain: 1. Whether the Pink Horrors could, at that point, cast a power known to one of the Tzeralds. 2. How you would resolve a Perils if one of the Psykers in the unit rolled a double 6. Use some quotations from the BRB in your explanation. (debate is in this thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/597151.page#6878341)
I also agree that 9 dice is not what will happen. You will 5 dice it on multiple units of pink horrors as this gives you the best output.
Perils and sacrifice are a joke on the pink horrors as well.
Your heralds are cheap WC and help you fish for other powers than summoning. Sacrifice is probably the best conjuration, possession is extremely useful, and cursed earth is a very important power to get off at least once (1 dice it btw if you have multiples) due to no scatter DS.
Heralds in buildings are often bad idea as they can no longer use any of the conjurations and barrage became a lot more reliable with how they treat roofs now.
Blue scribes have a 1/3 chance to get a witchfire and a 50% chance to use a conjuration. They would be broken good if getting the conjuration off anytime during the game was equal but getting the right daemon in the right place at the right time is how this list can actually win games. Not by just conjuring random dudes anywhere and hoping the opponent waits 3 turns for you to prepare.
Chaos sorcerer will murder himself for sure if you use any of the high WC powers on the malefic chart. He is awesome at getting the WC1 powers off and possession could be worthwhile if you use it well but a CSM sorcerer with the ML and spell familiar you are likely to bring to get those powers is pretty expensive compared to 5 WC and pink horrors.
Blue scribes have a 1/3 chance to get a witchfire and a 50% chance to use a conjuration. They would be broken good if getting the conjuration off anytime during the game was equal but getting the right daemon in the right place at the right time is how this list can actually win games. Not by just conjuring random dudes anywhere and hoping the opponent waits 3 turns for you to prepare.
That's why the people who have actually PLAYED these lists keep attesting to the Daemonic power. Whereas all we're seeing from the rest of them is even -- more -- theorycrafting. In a perfect world, Tau would get overrun by Khorne Berserkers and be useless every game because clearly melee is their weakness. How often does that actually happen?
I've only played with Daemons once in this edition (or rather I only played one game this edition) thus far, but I've simply failed to cast Summoning. How many dice do you people usually throw down to try and cast this?
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/596200.page You need 5 dice for a 50% chance to summon. If you have multiple summoning units 5 dice on each is optimal. If you have 1 summoning unit you will need 7+ dice to give a good chance. CSM with spell familiar have much better chances.
Red Corsair wrote: That's because most of the suggestions in here are coming from people who don't own half the books their talking about. It really shows.
I do own all the books and it shows!
Red Corsair wrote: Barraging heralds isn't as easy as you'd think, putting them in chariots or buildings solves this real easy and the chariots are awesome now. Slaanesh heralds would be choice number one for me if I played demons. Ignoring wyverns, fast and adding more invisibility attempts? Yes please.
At which point you are spending points on other things lowering the number of warp charges you have, and hiding in a building tactic doesn't work in 7th edition.
Red Corsair wrote: all summoning attempts should come from horrors anyway so perils is a joke.
Killing horrors is a joke, a player can kill enough horrors to lower your warp charge count with ease, I stated it earlier how hard is it to kill 6 of 16 horrors?
Red Corsair wrote: I don't think the list is that much a problem if you play reasonable point levels. At 1500 pretty much all the worst offenders in this edition vanish or become much more tame.
You are right here my friend not because its omg to powerful but because of time restraints a new phase adds at a minimum 40 minutes to the game lowering points is a must.
ansacs wrote: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/596200.page You need 5 dice for a 50% chance to summon. If you have multiple summoning units 5 dice on each is optimal. If you have 1 summoning unit you will need 7+ dice to give a good chance. CSM with spell familiar have much better chances.
Don't forget you can always play Crimson Slaughter and make him a Daemon for like 30 points and just negate the rolling ones all together and then he gets a +1 from Cursed Earth, Yay.
Actually lot of theory crafting here.
It's a really good army but it's actually kind of complex and a lot things to keep track of and a lot of decision making.
What's not complex is when you start getting into Eldar Allied with Daemons is straight up horrific. Once you actually start digging into the other codexes codei? it gets rough. Especially with Eldar.
Also they have trouble with AV14 so yea that's a thing. Don't kill the Heralds, kill the ones that are summoned. Then kill the Heralds, target anything that has Psychic Power and is summoned.
Hollismason wrote: Don't forget you can always play Crimson Slaughter and make him a Daemon for like 30 points and just negate the rolling ones all together and then he gets a +1 from Cursed Earth, Yay.
True though then it is limited to joining possessed units. Could still be good though.
Yeah this army has been around all of a week. I don't think anyone is an expert yet. However some things can be extrapolated.
Hollismason wrote: It's a really good army but it's actually kind of complex and a lot things to keep track of and a lot of decision making.
This army may be the most book keeping and require the most knowledge of your codex of any army I have seen or played.
Hollismason wrote: What's not complex is when you start getting into Eldar Allied with Daemons is straight up horrific. Once you actually start digging into the other codexes codei? it gets rough. Especially with Eldar.
GK psybacks w/ psyker/henchman and CWE farseers could both add a fair amount to the army in terms of cheap psychic batteries that are tougher than the pink horrors. However I need to make some enslaved models for them. The interesting thing is that the CD list doesn't loose too much from becoming an ally as you don't want the warp table, you want 1 HQ of 4 heralds, and 2 big units of pink horrors wouldn't be too bad if you had extra WC and something capable of putting out some damage turn 1.
Hollismason wrote: Also they have trouble with AV14 so yea that's a thing. Don't kill the Heralds, kill the ones that are summoned. Then kill the Heralds, target anything that has Psychic Power and is summoned.
I would agree that AV14 and SH walkers are somewhat troublesome. Pretty much all of the daemon answers to these either require some serious luck rolling up the right gifts/powers or cannot charge for a turn after summoned.
I kept it more TAC. I can tweak points, drop a sentinel and get some more lascannon to help with higher armor. Basically, quantity has a quality all itself.
I am putting Yarrick, a Priest, and the Liber Heresius Inquisitor in one blob and scouting it forward. The other gains a priest and Inuisitor and trudges along. Both are now immune to psychic powers, to flickering fire cannot hurt me. I am a walking wall of oncoming death for the army as I now have FRF, SRF BS10 Lasguns on 50 conscripts they cannot kill without engaging in close combat. With Zealot and Warhymns, I have a good chance of crushing stuff like units of pink horrors in close combat.
The amount of S7 shots are there to make sure heralds cannot hide. Yes, they won't kill Nurgle Heralds, but applying those S7 wounds last to horrors will make them sweat for their heralds.
The scouting Sentinels are there to help snipe hidden heralds outside of LOS and not worth dropping Wyverns on.
Yes, that's 3 Hydras. They could be dead wait, but if they bring Fateweaver or any other FMC, like Be'lakor, I'm going to put the hurt on it. BAD. And then make sure they'll be eating a bunch of fearless conscripts in close combat.
The platoons blob to maximize the one Vox and I can use ignores cover orders to snipe out any plague heralds.
Yarrick is a beatstick who can at least stand up to daemon beat sticks, if necessary. And it's Yarrick.
I said screw even attempting psykers because it would seem in the early stages of 7E, either go big or stay away from the psychic phase. I'd like to think this list is fairly competitive and can really put the hurt on clown car lists and other types, as well.
I kept it more TAC. I can tweak points, drop a sentinel and get some more lascannon to help with higher armor. Basically, quantity has a quality all itself.
I am putting Yarrick, a Priest, and the Liber Heresius Inquisitor in one blob and scouting it forward. The other gains a priest and Inuisitor and trudges along. Both are now immune to psychic powers, to flickering fire cannot hurt me. I am a walking wall of oncoming death for the army as I now have FRF, SRF BS10 Lasguns on 50 conscripts they cannot kill without engaging in close combat. With Zealot and Warhymns, I have a good chance of crushing stuff like units of pink horrors in close combat.
The amount of S7 shots are there to make sure heralds cannot hide. Yes, they won't kill Nurgle Heralds, but applying those S7 wounds last to horrors will make them sweat for their heralds.
The scouting Sentinels are there to help snipe hidden heralds outside of LOS and not worth dropping Wyverns on.
Yes, that's 3 Hydras. They could be dead wait, but if they bring Fateweaver or any other FMC, like Be'lakor, I'm going to put the hurt on it. BAD. And then make sure they'll be eating a bunch of fearless conscripts in close combat.
The platoons blob to maximize the one Vox and I can use ignores cover orders to snipe out any plague heralds.
Yarrick is a beatstick who can at least stand up to daemon beat sticks, if necessary. And it's Yarrick.
I said screw even attempting psykers because it would seem in the early stages of 7E, either go big or stay away from the psychic phase. I'd like to think this list is fairly competitive and can really put the hurt on clown car lists and other types, as well. [/spoiler]
My big recommendation would be something that can scratch high toughness GUO, GMC, and AV14 buildings.
My big recommendation would be something that can scratch high toughness GUO, GMC, and AV14 buildings.
The null rods conscripts is a nice touch.
Could squeeze in some Lascannons somewhere. Otherwise, a GUO would be locked up by a herd of Conscripts pretty nicely since he's slow. Av14 buildings are meh, if they hide in them, great. I'll vaporize everything else.
The only thing I can think of is to work in a Vendetta and put a SWS (3x Melta) into it. Lascannons can target fat guys and the dropped out melta can shoot the buildings. Yarrick can also pinch things, too.
I like the 2 scouting sentinels too much to drop them, though. People keep talking about hiding heralds and I'd want to stop that ASAP.
Not sure if this is better, but at least I can engage with Av14 and do more herald hunting with deep striking Tempestus. Added a servo skull as bait and points filler. I could easily spam more, if I wanted to by cutting back autocannons on the Sentinels.
So now I have 4x BS4 Melta guns and lost one hydras and a bunch of Autocannons, but I think I'm still fine. The 100x BS10 vs. Psyker lasguns should put the hurt on anything in a farm star and still be painful against any other army that has psykers. You'll control where they are placed a great deal with that as it's assured to aid in squad vaporization. Yarrick's frontline orders will help with that!
Try to take some AV12, there's not much the army can do with destroying transports on the first turn or later as it has very low output on shooting.
I'd recommend Veterans in a Chimera w/ Flamers, H. Flamers. They get rid of things that are in mass and shrouded.
Looks like a very deadly list!!
Also replace some of the Autocannons with Mortar Squads or take H. Weapon Mortar Squads, remember if they use Sacrifice that guy is not part of the unit. He's all by his lonesome. Just snipe him. They're not super survivable unless it's a Herald of Nurgle.
Mortars really really hurt this army. Most everything troop wise has like T3.
I thought about mortars, but that's what Wyverns are for. The autocannons make it a better TAC list. Also, the outflanking sentinels are also there to snipe out hidden heralds.
And really, don't under estimate the power of those conscripts walking up complete with orders, immune to psychic powers, and BS10 versus psykers. I feel like those would do a great deal of heavy lifting in this army.
They can also reroll to hit and to wound in close combat.
My big recommendation would be something that can scratch high toughness GUO, GMC, and AV14 buildings.
The null rods conscripts is a nice touch.
Could squeeze in some Lascannons somewhere. Otherwise, a GUO would be locked up by a herd of Conscripts pretty nicely since he's slow. Av14 buildings are meh, if they hide in them, great. I'll vaporize everything else.
The only thing I can think of is to work in a Vendetta and put a SWS (3x Melta) into it. Lascannons can target fat guys and the dropped out melta can shoot the buildings. Yarrick can also pinch things, too.
I like the 2 scouting sentinels too much to drop them, though. People keep talking about hiding heralds and I'd want to stop that ASAP.
Not sure if this is better, but at least I can engage with Av14 and do more herald hunting with deep striking Tempestus. Added a servo skull as bait and points filler. I could easily spam more, if I wanted to by cutting back autocannons on the Sentinels.
So now I have 4x BS4 Melta guns and lost one hydras and a bunch of Autocannons, but I think I'm still fine. The 100x BS10 vs. Psyker lasguns should put the hurt on anything in a farm star and still be painful against any other army that has psykers. You'll control where they are placed a great deal with that as it's assured to aid in squad vaporization. Yarrick's frontline orders will help with that!
Thoughts on Rev. 2?
That ... that's a smexy list. I like it, a lot good job (que orkish applause). Not the hugest fan of sentials in general (too low damage output to points IMHO). I would instead drop them and use the points for chimeras for your PCSs as the damage output is superior, and protects order givers (plus daemons have a harder time against the AV 12). If you have to keep the sentials, at least give them heavy flamers to dig out hiding heralds.
TheKbob wrote: I thought about mortars, but that's what Wyverns are for. The autocannons make it a better TAC list. Also, the outflanking sentinels are also there to snipe out hidden heralds.
And really, don't under estimate the power of those conscripts walking up complete with orders, immune to psychic powers, and BS10 versus psykers. I feel like those would do a great deal of heavy lifting in this army.
They can also reroll to hit and to wound in close combat.
Honestly Multilasers do the same thing and you save yourself 15 points. Plus you get 3 more shots. The Toughest Herald has T5 and 4 wounds.
I'd absoreakinglutely take at least 2 mortar squads for more Barrage. It really is so crazy good against the army. Seriously.
TheKbob wrote: I thought about mortars, but that's what Wyverns are for. The autocannons make it a better TAC list. Also, the outflanking sentinels are also there to snipe out hidden heralds.
And really, don't under estimate the power of those conscripts walking up complete with orders, immune to psychic powers, and BS10 versus psykers. I feel like those would do a great deal of heavy lifting in this army.
They can also reroll to hit and to wound in close combat.
Honestly Multilasers do the same thing and you save yourself 15 points. Plus you get 3 more shots. The Toughest Herald has T5 and 4 wounds.
I'd absoreakinglutely take at least 2 mortar squads for more Barrage. It really is so crazy good against the army. Seriously.
I'm not trying to 100% list tailor to daemons. My goal is to have a focus on stopping psykers while still being TAC. Funny enough, one of the hardest match ups for this army is the mirror of itself and really does rely on "going first."
I like the sentinels as they can come from the side AND they can engage in hand to hand if necessary, tying up the herald further. That's why I like them better than PCS Chimeras. Plus, this splits the attention of the daemons to multiple fronts. A one front war against them won't go well. The deep strikers and outflankers will make sure they stay on their toes. The autocannons do better against the side armor of vehicles, providing extra punch where a multi-laser falls short. Again, the list is designed for TAC, not just daemons.
Feel free to modify as you see fit. I don't think I'd ever build it because I'd never get anyone to play against 6 Wyverns.
Yeah Daemon Factory is tough but alot of speculation has been put into taking down Mono lists and really where the Daemon Factory really get's going is with Allies as it's so cheap to get good useful units that summon that really Eldar and Chaos Space Marines especially benefit.
Sure you may shut down a Daemon Factory that's mono it's different when it's 2 Farseers, Warlocks on Jetbikes, and Wraight Knights an the Daemons just deep strike in and start summoning.
Hollismason wrote: Sure you may shut down a Daemon Factory that's mono it's different when it's 2 Farseers, Warlocks on Jetbikes, and Wraight Knights an the Daemons just deep strike in and start summoning.
Should we be afraid of the allies or the daemon factory? All those things cost points which means less warp charges just admit daemon factory has potential but its not the army to beat, just to early to tell. Your list is going to have daemons, farseers, warlocks on jetbikes, and wraithknights how many points are you playing?
Just admit it the daemon factory is good but not as good as it looks on paper, does it have potential ofcourse but no one should be afraid of it. You guys are like 30+ warp charges!! We respond with facts such as kill 6 horrors to take away 2 charges or 12 for 4 or focus on the heralds for 3 at a time. You than respond with what about 2 farseers, warlocks, and knights? When we give you facts and you respond with something from a different codex its like are we changing the subject? I can see it working since Eldar has a way to proctect themselves from perils but that list is a hybrid that I don't know the specifics to defend against which is most likely the point, so can you explain the new eldar demon factory to us?
I think if the farm works will come down to a gain vs loss equation. Can you kill whole daemon units faster than they are replaced? If not, then the horrors could actually charge into combat against the guard and still come out ahead; as their losses are being replaced while yours are not.
The worst offender I've seen for allies is coteaz with 6 units of henchmen (18 points each for a WC). Yes, 3 henchmen die about as fast as anything that aims at them, but it's target saturation. 208 points is really cheap for 8 warp charge.
Following that, it's another 40 points for a rhino with another warp charge, so 448 gives you 14 warp charge to feed into the daemons.
At 35 points a pop, warlocks are more expensive, and easier to target in the role of daemon battery.
HawaiiMatt wrote: I think if the farm works will come down to a gain vs loss equation. Can you kill whole daemon units faster than they are replaced? If not, then the horrors could actually charge into combat against the guard and still come out ahead; as their losses are being replaced while yours are not.
The worst offender I've seen for allies is coteaz with 6 units of henchmen (18 points each for a WC). Yes, 3 henchmen die about as fast as anything that aims at them, but it's target saturation. 208 points is really cheap for 8 warp charge.
Following that, it's another 40 points for a rhino with another warp charge, so 448 gives you 14 warp charge to feed into the daemons.
At 35 points a pop, warlocks are more expensive, and easier to target in the role of daemon battery.
-Matt
Spirit Seers are more durable and an Iyanden Detachment can take 5. Attach that to a unit of Wraithguard to baby sit the backfield objective(s).
It is ridiculously cheap to generate Warp Charge w/ a Daemon Factory.
No one here knows what they are talking about. You can have a Eldar army w/ around 40 Warp Charge in 1500 points with Daemon Allies and all of those guys will be on Jetbikes with Objective Secured Troops. Flying around the board summoning Daemons and then having Daemons teleport in and Summon Daemons. Its ridiculous.
The Daemon Summoning thing get's broken when you start allying seriously.
There's no way Tournaments don't start saying " Yea come the apocalypse cannot ally together".
ansacs wrote:Yeah this army has been around all of a week. I don't think anyone is an expert yet. However some things can be extrapolated.
Exactly. There's nothing sacred about subjective experience, especially when you can just look at the statlines, run the numbers, and create a much more accurate representation of objectivity by just thinking things through.
The only way that an army full of spawning GEq's looks all that scary is when you ignore the demon player's opponent, and then assume the best possible results from die rolls and then freak out at what the hypothetical, though specious best case scenario is.
The benefit of keeping things abstract is that you get to look at people's assumptions going into things. When you give more credence to more realistic assumptions, the demon factory looks a lot less scary than the scariest it is possible to make them look.
I'm sure some people will be stubborn holdouts without seeing a demon factory go down to flaming defeat a few times, but that doesn't mean it's impossible to predict.
ansacs wrote:Yeah this army has been around all of a week. I don't think anyone is an expert yet. However some things can be extrapolated.
Exactly. There's nothing sacred about subjective experience, especially when you can just look at the statlines, run the numbers, and create a much more accurate representation of objectivity by just thinking things through.
The only way that an army full of spawning GEq's looks all that scary is when you ignore the demon player's opponent, and then assume the best possible results from die rolls and then freak out at what the hypothetical, though specious best case scenario is.
The benefit of keeping things abstract is that you get to look at people's assumptions going into things. When you give more credence to more realistic assumptions, the demon factory looks a lot less scary than the scariest it is possible to make them look.
I'm sure some people will be stubborn holdouts without seeing a demon factory go down to flaming defeat a few times, but that doesn't mean it's impossible to predict.
You'd be right if it wasn't already a good base of battle reports all saying it's absolutely bat crap insane and is broken.
Because you can take the inverse of your argument; a well skilled player using the list properly. Properly meaning spawning the right daemons at the right time to apply the right pressure. The Daemon Farm is the quintessential TAC list. You can generate ANY stop gap measure for a deficiency your list has.
And do note, any list that requires "going first" means this game has gotten even more dumb. Just my opinion, but given that the dice roll to go first is so powerful now, the game leans even harder on Alpha and denied Alpha strikes.
Yeah everyone here thinks the army is " Summon gakky demons, then do nothing".
Seriously the army has a lot of versatility and becomes even worse when you ally everything the army suffers from can be completely negated by Allies. It's ridiculous and there's nothing you can do to stop these guys from summoning gak on you. I've played several games, proxy, with actual models, and with Vassal. It's really really good. It's not the best but it most certainly can be when you ally with Eldar and other armies.
Sounds like the fear is of full blown Daemon Incursions. lol. The way the fluff says it should be. >D I love it. That said, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Something I don't think some players have factored in yet are those Deny the Witches going through on some of these summons and worse than that, the great Perils of the Warp now dragging half a squad into the Warp with the deaded psyker. Sooo much awesomeness is just waiting too happen.
I hope they can expand this with other races, like Eldar setting up Webway portal beacons or something that "conjures" reinforcements and Orks using Telyporta's.
I would take an Infantry-blob with autocannons and an Inquisitor /w Psyocculum over hydras. BS10 on flyers and twin-linked against everything else is > twinlinked BS3 against flyers and twinlinked snapshots against everything else.
remember, psychic powers are cast by choosing a psyker UNIT, and making an attempt to cast a spell they know. A unit with two psykers, with different spells known, will stil be able to manifest any of the powers anyone in its units knows, but is still limited to ONE attempt per spell. Who actually suffers the perils is a bit of a discussion for YMDC, but its RAW right now that the psykers in the unit will randomly be assigned perils when they happen.
IC's are part of a unit for all purposes, so a pyschic unit that tries to cast the same summon power twice, is breaking the rules.
Summoned Heralds
Heralds
Pink Horrors
Portaglyph ( Seriously, blow this up it can provide 1 warp charge a turn)
Oh try to kill any summoner on a Disc or Chariot because seriously these things are super fast, but you probably won't be able to because they can both Move Summon then Move another 15 or 18 inches to get away from you but if you can kill them.
That's only first turn though after that it all becomes situational.
For Dispelling if you have it..
Save it for if they do shooting attacks. Also it weirds the person out if you just hold onto it and messes with them because they are cautious about casting but then honestly your probably gonna at most get like 2 or 3 Denials a entire game because they can power through.
1.Large Squads of horrors if they have a squad of 16 horrors producing 3 warp charges you should kill 6 to lower that number down to 1 warp charge. You do this first as it should be the easiest to accomplish.
2.Once all the horror squads are only producing 1 warp charge you kill the easiest target that is producing more than 1 warp charge a turn, usually heralds.
GK still have banishers. Load a henchman squad with a banisher inside a chimera or valk and every deamonic unit within 6" has to reroll successful invo saves.
Hollismason wrote:... even worse when you ally everything the army suffers from can be completely negated by Allies.
At which point you're not running a demon factory. This idea is only scary in the first place because when you double down on it it can, in theory, expand out of control. Once it becomes a reasonable amount of demons summoning other demons, then the threat is gone. You're just running an army that can get more dudes in, not running an army that could possibly overload your opponent's killing power.
TheRedWingArmada wrote:Sounds like the fear is of full blown Daemon Incursions. lol. The way the fluff says it should be. >D I love it..
I won't lie, old respawning conscripts was pretty fun, if not exactly the strongest options, and I can imagine it would be a blast to play for demons as well. Of course, I like the idea of a clown-car full of casualties, which is why I would play respawning conscripts or a demon factory, and not, say, grey knights.
Hollismason wrote:... even worse when you ally everything the army suffers from can be completely negated by Allies.
At which point you're not running a demon factory. This idea is only scary in the first place because when you double down on it it can, in theory, expand out of control. Once it becomes a reasonable amount of demons summoning other demons, then the threat is gone. You're just running an army that can get more dudes in, not running an army that could possibly overload your opponent's killing power.
TheRedWingArmada wrote:Sounds like the fear is of full blown Daemon Incursions. lol. The way the fluff says it should be. >D I love it..
I won't lie, old respawning conscripts was pretty fun, if not exactly the strongest options, and I can imagine it would be a blast to play for demons as well. Of course, I like the idea of a clown-car full of casualties, which is why I would play respawning conscripts or a demon factory, and not, say, grey knights.
Yea the first parts just not true. I mean if you want to believe thats but that's not what the army is. It's not just producing Daemons. You can ally Chaos Space Marines with you, to shore up antitank and have massive fire power. Still producing just as many Daemons as Chaos Space Marines have some of the hands down best summoners in the game right now.
Like seriously. I don't know where you are getting this and I don't think you've played against the army or seen what it can do. Multiple people here are playing it currently and trying to "figure it out" , we've had it for a 2 week at most period since Malefic leaked. As it goes on it becomes more and more apparent that you actually need allies to deal with Fliers, Anti AV 14 and other things that you can't deal with reliably with the army.
Hrmmm trying to figure out best way to explain this. Okay so let's say you have 4 Heralds a Lord of Tzeentch and 4 Pink Horrors.
Okay , you have 12 Rolls on the heralds, 4 rolls on the Pinks, 3 max on the Lord.
Now you have actually a Max number of times you can reliably cast Sacrifice, 9. In order to cast those reliably with 5 dice, at 50% or twice with 75% chance of success overall of getting 1 unit or succeeding in casting the spell. At 5 Dice that's 1 Unit. Reliably 6 dice is what you want. That's 18 warp charge expended to ensure it beyond a 80 percent chance to get 1 unit. But your odds increase with each successive cast.
Here's the thing. There's a "sweet spot" with casting. It's all about percentages really. 5 Dice Twice gives you 50% each time , odds total though go to 75% if rolled twice from two seperate casters. You can push that further the more dice you cast each time , with the forethought that it's a percentage game.
This changes when you get the ability to reroll your chances inititally. So while before hand you may have a 31% chance w/ 4 Dice to power a level 3 when you consider rerolling that it becomes a 47% chance, if done twice another a caster using 4 dice as well it becomes a 75% chance which is 2 Warp Lower than actually expending 5 Dice Twice.
It matters in the Perils game as well, because 4 dice rolled 4 times doesn't actually equal a successive Equal Perils of each time because you have to calculate the chance that first your not going to peril on the first roll, then not Peril again on the second roll.
So you may think oh well I'm rolling 4 dice , 4 times so that'd be a 13% chance, but you only have a 13% chance each successive roll it doesn't increase it to 26 % or 46% because you are not in fact rolling 16 dice at the same time.
Now none of this comes into play really until you ally because taking Chaos Space Marines as the Primary, overall actually gives you better chances to summon. That's all possible because of Spell Familiar which rerolls failed Psychic Tests.
So yeah, it's actually better to go with Chaos Space Marines as a Primary and a allied demon as you'll actually be able to summon more things because statistically you'll have to use less Warp Dice.
TheRedWingArmada wrote:Yea the first parts just not true. I mean if you want to believe thats but that's not what the army is. It's not just producing Daemons. You can ally Chaos Space Marines with you, to shore up antitank and have massive fire power. Still producing just as many Daemons as Chaos Space Marines have some of the hands down best summoners in the game right now.
Like seriously. I don't know where you are getting this and I don't think you've played against the army or seen what it can do. Multiple people here are playing it currently and trying to "figure it out" , we've had it for a 2 week at most period since Malefic leaked. As it goes on it becomes more and more apparent that you actually need allies to deal with Fliers, Anti AV 14 and other things that you can't deal with reliably with the army.
They don't require allies, they even have things in house to deal with most of the things mentioned actually. AA and anti-horde in Soul Grinders (assuming Phlgem Bombardment) and AT in Exalted Flamers (most likely on Burning Chariots). Their hole is anti-artillary which is a big one, given the most notorious one is in an army which could beat a daemon factory (TFC in C:SM of course).
Yes I am aware, of the bane of the army that is Barrage. I've mentioned it multiple times in the thread as a way to brutalize the army.The only tactics really are : Get something that Deep Strikes and shoots to land and try and kill it. Hide. Go with Nurgle Summoners (T5 W4).It's why you should kind of mix and match your summoners, the army doesn't actually statistically need more than 30 dice to get going.
Exalted Flamers are okay HQs but since they are Heavy cannot move and shoot without snap shot they're pretty unreliable on their own as a HQ.
Burning Chariot is okay, until you realize that it has to get in LOS of other things, it's a good vehicle, but seriously you can take a Soul Grinder.
They don't "require allies" but Chaos Space Marines seriously boosts the armies potential to use other tactics that can negate Alpha Strike Armies. Specifically their more survivable and you can have a small contingent that will survive on the table top while you hopefully are able to Deepstrike in Daemons and start summoning.
You can go with tough Daemon units but all the ones you have Access to really eat into your HQ slots and HS slots. It's easier just to ally and better in some cases as CSM benefit specifically from cursed earth on Obliterators and a few other units that benefit as well such as shooty shoot shoot things as you can cast Prescience on the army now you always could but this makes it more of a incentive.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh forgot to add yeah you only are gonna probably be casting Summoning a Max of 4 to 5 times a turn as you want spell dice for Incursion , Possession, Cursed Earth, and if you take it Divination.
So just having a massive amount of units with Summon is kind of dumb. You only need like 5 to 6 copies of the spell at most.
Hollismason wrote:You can ally Chaos Space Marines with you, to shore up antitank and have massive fire power.
Then you're spending hundreds and hundreds of points on chaos space marines. You're diluting your strength.
It's like taking a guard army where you only bring AV14 vehicles and then someone says "well, what about lance weapons?" and your response is to get rid of a few AV14 vehicles and replace them with a few squads in chimeras. It doesn't solve the problem, it just weakens your key advantage - spamming something so hard your opponent can't deal with it all.
Hollismason wrote:It's all about percentages really.
Which, if you've been paying attention, is one of the key problems (of several). Yes, you can take a spell familiar, but that doesn't change the fundamentally super-random nature of this army.
Once you start taking casualties (especially, say, once that sorcerer gets forced down) you start having fewer and fewer chances of making that random thing work correctly.
Yeah the army is built on being completely redundant also there's a point in a single FOC + ally that you reach where you actually are just wasting points on taking more Summoning spells because you can't cast them all plus remember your summoning things specifically heralds that also cast.
The army isn't "random", you definitively can get a summoning spell. If you have a LeveL 3 Sorcerer the odds of him rolling possession is greater than 30% , you have 10 of them. You will get everything you want to get and get some bs.
Once you have just 2 each of the summon spells you are literally GTG after that.. Anything extra after that is just bonus. There's no "random"ness to this army, it's built to be redundant. I'm going to take 7 Level 3 Sorcerers that roll 21 times on the chart. Each Level 3 has a 30% or greater chance of getting Possession. Or trading out and taking a bad roll to get Summoning. If by the time I get to Sorcerer number 4 I don't need to take anymore summoning then I'm good.
Every Single Pink Horror Squad can have Summoning. It doesn't even need to roll. Just take it , so of those 6 powers 2 are not good. The Witchfire. You will always get something good with Pink Horrors, and you can kill them down to 3 guys and they'll still be able to summon.
You don't need like 1500 points of Summoning Daemons to make the army powerful.All those "points " your spending add to the functionality of the army.
It's pretty cheap anyway so It's not like your hurting.
Like I've actually been playing the army and trying different things and other people will tell you that there's a complete plateau on having to many summon spells that you cant cast anyway.
Havint 12 Summoners with Summons is kind of pointless because you can spend 72 Warp Charge to summon basically at a 60% chance 6 units.
Again, allying in Chaos Space Marines isn't going to harm the army at all and give it benefits.
This isn't a army that is "random" at all. Your order is pretty easy.
Select Each Pink Horror Squad roll their Psychics First depending on your number of squads usualy 2 to 4 you'll get some good spells or Summoning.
If by the time I get to my 3rd Sorcerer and I've gotten possession twice, Incursion Twice, and Sacrifice. Everything past that is BONUS. Then you just start solo rolling on the Malefic, taking Summoning if you get it. If you get possession roll the rest as you want to cast Possession and Start rolling up on the other charts like Biomancy , Divination etc..
This isn't some like " Take gak, roll randomly, put gak on the board, win" army. It's not taking 3 Riptides or a 2++ rerolling unit. It's a actual army that requires tactics and in depth knowledge of your odds and when your cut off is for taking Malefic. A huge portion of Tactics starts when you do your order for rolling for Psychic Powers.
It actually get's pretty difficult at some points knowing exactly what to do. You in a Daemon Factory have to put pressure immediately on your opponent you can't just spend a turn summoning, it's pointless it's why it's actually kind of interesting. Knights and SH hurt. So do a ton of other things. You just have to know how to counter it.
So had the game today against the "OMGURD BROKEN DEMONS" today...
1750 pts
played using my standard TAC guard list,
will post a bat rep in the bat rep section once i get pics and play by play up and ready,
but here is the breif synopsis for you guys:
I was allowing him to proxy any units for whatever he wanted them to be FYI,
he was getting good rolls for set up and powers, every single summon went off for the first 3 turns, I was able to deny two witchfires with lucky rolls.
He had several units with the greater demon summon.
and none of it mattered one bit, despite him getting first turn.
why you ask? how on earth could and army that spent all its pts on being able to summon lose despite adding 20+ models a turn? (over the course of the game, over 500pts were generated IIRC so thats almost 30% of base pts)
well, all his pts were in summoning, all my pts were in shooting.
1st turn he gets his shattered earth off, his 2++ rerols, and both his summons without incident. since everything is based around summoning, I suffer very few casualties turn 1.
he however, takes off ~40 models that turn, and since Im not an idiot, I am purposefully targeting the things that can give him the most WC:s as even with 7 dice at each attempt, he has a crappy chance. Dropped him down 6 or 7 WC's first turn, which really screwed over his summoning
the next turn.. he was only able to summon one free greater daemon... again, his army has not magically gained the ability to toss damage at me across the table, so I take very few casualties
turn 2 of my shooting... basically the game is over at this point, I finished off another 40 models or so, sure he is up a demon at this point, but its all the way over there, and he can either summon a walking demon that will never make it into range to do anything, or summon a flying one that wont make it into combat for 2 extra rounds.
we played two more turns just for fun, but it was all over at this point...
and this was a game where he was LUCKY the first few rounds getting first turn and every summon off... just imagine if he had gone second...
my friend is a very smart TO, who has been playing for 15+ years, this was one of a couple games he had played to see how broken demon factory is.
He feels like he is crippling himself stupidly by putting all his pts into summoning, and we both feel his list would do much better if he focused on actually killing stuff, while getting the odd buff/summons off.
his other test game against an tournament worth list (eldar wraith deathstar) also ended with his butt being kicked.
Cant say I am surprised, we have people going ape crazy over a list that is :"broken" because in one popular bat rep they lucked out and drew a tie...
when in actual fact, the all summon list is just stupid, time consuming, and offers you no real advantage as the demon player.
Bringing an all D factory list has so many draw backs its not even funny... any opponent who has either mobility or firepower will cream you in the early game...
and any opponent who has neither firepower or mobility deserves to lose (two things that ironically, demon factory severely lacks)
So lets stop the QQ, and all the calls to nerf everything psychic please, reality is the D factory list is borderline suck, and very far from competitive.
easysauce wrote: So had the game today against the "OMGURD BROKEN DEMONS" today...
1750 pts
played using my standard TAC guard list,
will post a bat rep in the bat rep section once i get pics and play by play up and ready,
but here is the breif synopsis for you guys:
I was allowing him to proxy any units for whatever he wanted them to be FYI,
he was getting good rolls for set up and powers, every single summon went off for the first 3 turns, I was able to deny two witchfires with lucky rolls.
He had several units with the greater demon summon.
and none of it mattered one bit, despite him getting first turn.
why you ask? how on earth could and army that spent all its pts on being able to summon lose despite adding 20+ models a turn?
well, all his pts were in summoning, all my pts were in shooting.
1st turn he gets his shattered earth off, his 2++ rerols, and both his summons without incident. since everything is based around summoning, I suffer very few casualties turn 1.
he however, takes off ~40 models that turn, and since Im not an idiot, I am purposefully targeting the things that can give him the most WC:s as even with 7 dice at each attempt, he has a crappy chance. Dropped him down 6 or 7 WC's first turn, which really screwed over his summoning
the next turn.. he was only able to summon one free greater daemon... again, his army has not magically gained the ability to toss damage at me across the table, so I take very few casualties
turn 2 of my shooting... basically the game is over at this point, I finished off another 40 models or so, sure he is up a demon at this point, but its all the way over there, and he can either summon a walking demon that will never make it into range to do anything, or summon a flying one that wont make it into combat for 2 extra rounds.
we played two more turns just for fun, but it was all over at this point...
and this was a game where he was LUCKY the first few rounds getting first turn and every summon off... just imagine if he had gone second...
my friend is a very smart TO, who has been playing for 15+ years, this was one of a couple games he had played to see how broken demon factory is.
He feels like he is crippling himself stupidly by putting all his pts into summoning, and we both feel his list would do much better if he focused on actually killing stuff, while getting the odd buff/summons off.
his other test game against an tournament worth list (eldar wraith deathstar) also ended with his butt being kicked.
Cant say I am surprised, we have people going ape crazy over a list that is :"broken" because in one popular bat rep they lucked out and drew a tie...
when in actual fact, the all summon list is just stupid, time consuming, and offers you no real advantage as the demon player.
Bringing an all D factory list has so many draw backs its not even funny... any opponent who has either mobility or firepower will cream you in the early game...
and any opponent who has neither firepower or mobility deserves to lose (two things that ironically, demon factory severely lacks)
So lets stop the QQ, and all the calls to nerf everything psychic please, reality is the D factory list is borderline suck, and very far from competitive.
Quiet FOOL, if they find out the truth then how am I supposed to get some easy wins at the GT this fall. I got some serious money on the line man
....and this was a game where he was LUCKY the first few rounds getting first turn and every summon off... just imagine if he had gone second...
With Daemon Factory, going first vs going second may not be such a big deal. The advantage they get from going first is that they get to use all their casters at least once before you start killing them.
But if they just sit there and summon, you can effectively alpha strike them even if they go first, which is...unique.
Yeah the same gak I've been posting about for the last I dunno 5 days, shocking.
If you don't do gak to your opponent and bring some offense , you just sit around going " DER DERP DERP ". It's why allying is good and not going for a insane 45 or more Warp charge and just like 25 to 30 to start off with.
It's not surprising in the least but yeah , that and people functionally don't seem to understand how to play it.
at 2k i figured out i can take 46 units of 10 grots and a runtherd. ignore the enemy, just take tactical objecives and survive the game (and they ain't going to kill 46 separate units in a game!)
Edit: @Hollisman, would you please post a sample of one of these unbeatable Daemon Factories that uses allies, has massive amounts of WC, and still has offense and survivability?
I wanted to play test the daemon factory, hollismason could you tell me a good 1850 daemon factory list to play test. I have followed your post closely so I have a good idea of how to play just want to see it on the table top.
Hollismason wrote: I literally already made a thread that breaks the whole army down. Read the 99 problems thing.
I'll post something later to give a example I'm off to work.
I did see your thread, and yes I did read the suggested detachments etc, but I fail to see the paramount threat you suggest.
I would like to see a sample 1850 list you believe makes the Daemon Factory unstoppable, or a serious contender. Show me the list that will crush 6 Objective Secured Wave Serpents +600pts of extras at 1850. Especially if it has to go 2nd. Show me the lists that will beat Calgar and 6 full squads Objective Secured Tacticals in Rhinos or Razorbacks + ~500pts at 1850. That is what I want to see.
I think Daemon Factory can be an effective strategy, but I just don't believe that in this edition, the edition of Mobile and Preferably Mechanized Objective Secured Scoring, that Daemon Factory will lord over everything else. I just don't see it breaking this edition.
First turn vs second is paramount for daemons BTW (unless you DS them in). The reason being is that against a competent opponent it will be getting 2-3 more conjurations off and having daemons on the table who are an actual threat rather than your conjuration daemons who are not a threat.
A pure conjuration list really is just a gimmick. I think there is probably a mix that can be brought to a tournament level however it has a major uphill fight in a 7 round GT. I would be massively more confident in serpent spam, ravenguard rhino rush, and objective secured landraider crusader inquisition with imperial knight allies than in a d factory.
Interestingly the strength of d factory is NOT conjuring a bunch of daemons. It is essentially getting a tailored list against your opponent with the draw back that your tailored list cannot act until turn ~2.
d factory just isn't the list most of the internet imagines it as.
Honestly, as a guard player, I would LOVE for someone in my locale to play this 'zomgerd totez brokez' Demon list. At 1850 it would be comical how quickly the table would be devoid of demonspawn.
On a side note, wouldn't this list be better in smaller point games? I know that lower the points means lower amount of WC spam, but even if they can get 1-2 extra units a turn, that would be pretty frustrating to deal with in say a 1k game.
Either way, friend of mine just got the new ruleset and is starting Demons, so we'll have to see just how lucky he is.
....and this was a game where he was LUCKY the first few rounds getting first turn and every summon off... just imagine if he had gone second...
With Daemon Factory, going first vs going second may not be such a big deal. The advantage they get from going first is that they get to use all their casters at least once before you start killing them.
But if they just sit there and summon, you can effectively alpha strike them even if they go first, which is...unique.
That is true but I think the point was if If I go first v a Summoning army I am going to target either as many level 3 heralds as I can and/or the casters who have the GD summoning spells. It is a big deal for the summoning army If I kill 1-2 heralds and remove the big summoning spells as well.
Also I think the eldar stuff is right but I can't remember values as I can't find my book but I think it's close.
Total : 1793
Warp Charge : 33 + 50% for 1 more + D6 Average 3 so 36 to 37.
Oh also the army is reversible, if you want to you can swap out Fateweaver save a 160 points and buy more gak. You just reverse the Primary to Eldar and take another Farseer with runes of warding.
How does this work?????????
Okay so here is a chart that has math.
Odds of getting Spell on ML1 is 1 - (5/6) = 1/6
Odds of getting Spell on ML2 is 1 - (5/6*4/5) = 1/3
Odds of getting Spel on ML3 is 1 - (5/6*4/5*3/4) = 1/2
So roughly for every "5 individual rolls you make you get like a 95% by that point to get Possession". Odds are odds , statistics are statistics.
So how does that work?
Rolling Order
Pink Horror
Pink Horror
Warlock
Warlock
Warlock
Stop - Should have Possession By this point.
If no Possesion you still have Summoning Spells depending on what you get.
Restart
Sanctum , your going for two very Specific Spells here either Hammerhand or Sanctuary. Since we have two choices to take we don't actually "double our odds".
So it goes
Warlock
Warlock
Warlock
Warlock
At this point you should have Sanctum or Hammerhand, hopefully both. Or if you are lucky Vortex of Doom. Because seriously that gak is awesome and it doesn't matter if you die or peril because the spell goes off.
Last 2 should be Conceal for each.
Farseer should fish for Fortune, if not after 3 Rolls , Oh well.
Why do we go for Sanctum?
+1 Invunerable
Why do we go for Hammerhand +2 STR Why do we go for Vortex ?
Because its a goddamn Vortex Grenade
Remember even if they fail on a Sanctum and suffer a Perils they still have a shot of getting out of it with 2 Choices being a Leadership check and 1 Being a leadership check that makes you awesome.
Also, since it's a Warp Power 1, 2 Dice is a 75, 3 a bit better, but by 3 you'll perils like 27% of the time.
You can see where this is going....
Sanctum gives them a +1 to Invulnerable.. Fortune turns that into a 3++ Rerollable... Farseer can if getting Fortune Early go Malefic. Reduce the power by one which in turn increases his chances of success with less power dice and can use ghosthelm to ignore with one warp charge. He is a Summoning Beast.
With that much rolling on Sanctum, you should get at least Sanctuary once. If you keep rolling on it afterwards thats your business. You should just switch over everyone to trying for Possession.
You should at minimum with that many rolls get possession twice.
This isn't a overtly complicated army. It's literally two well known armies smashed together. So I mean there you go. You summon Daemons and Smash things.
Not gonna lie, I want to face that list. I think it would be fun. I think it would lose if I went first but it would be interesting to see how it worked. Wish my local scene was more tournament competative.
Still I might just have to bust out my own minis and proxy it.
If it goes first the first thing that's going to happen is 2 to 3 Greater GDs are gonna pop up its worth it to just burn 9 dice and suffer the perils if it's a squad or a individual because they get the spell off anyway and die. If you want to you can also swap thearmy . Eldar can be the Primary with a Farseer, drop Fateweaver and you have another 140 Points to spend. So you can get another 2 squads of Pinks. If you get Fortune from the first one, go all Malefic with the one that has the Ahaharahahrhahaha stones or even Sanctum to get a chance at Sanctuary and Vortex or Hammer Hand or Gate of Infinity which you don't really need I guess.
You can try to wipe it off the board on turn one but there's a reason there's two 5 man "these men are ablative wound squads".
All of the Heralds go in the Pink Horror Squads. That's another 28 Ablative wounds if you kill all 28 of them the armies lost 4 Warp Charge.
Also it can have Deathstars, with Cursed Earth and Grimoire. <- That's going to happen.
It can have another unit that has a 3++ <- that's like at a 70 to 80% likely hood. If it doesn't get Fortune , Oh well. It can still have a squad with a 2+ cover and 3+ invulnerable.
It's literally both Daemonology charts in one army, one of which gives you access to a ST D weapon. The other gives you Greater Daemons. Both of which are worth dieing for to get off.
Hollismason wrote:Sanctum gives them a +1 to Invulnerable.. Fortune turns that into a 3++ Rerollable... Farseer can if getting Fortune Early go Malefic. Reduce the power by one which in turn increases his chances of success with less power dice and can use ghosthelm to ignore with one warp charge. He is a Summoning Beast.
This is not actually true. The helm lets you ignore the wound from the perils but you could still loose the power, loose WC dice, or take wounds on the unit. With trying to get off sanctic powers each turn you will likely take one of the bad perils at some point.
Also D weapons are not what they were. I would not agree that a 3" blast is worth loosing the farseer in most cases. For the number of WC you have to dump into it, 3" blast, and the short range vortex of doom is not as useful as people think.
Also seer council lost it's game winning ability to break apart and contest all objectives turn 5. Without objective secured troops alive at the end of game you are almost assured to loose all the objectives to objective secured wave serpents.
Warlocks make pretty great possession fodder but they also generate a large number of warlocks that are worth far less than a herald as they perils every summoning attempt.
There is also the problem that your farseer does not have an invulnerable save due to the stones...there are a lot of tricks to kill off an unprotected psykers. Focus fire may be gone but vindicare assassins, LoS sniping, barrage sniping, and precision shot IG blobbs are all things.
You can go back and forth with scenarios and counter measures and it would be this weird Wizard dual that we started " I become a Dragon, Well I become a FLea".
The only goal your trying to get really is Possession on Warlocks and boosting how much Warp Charge you have. If you get Sanctuary or you get Vortex that's bonus with working with Sanctum.Also if their in the same squad you can only cast Sanctuary once. Same thing with the other spells. Except your possession guys. You only want to get Sanctuary Once.
No one is going to be around by the 6th turn.
This army isn't designed to "win" with a death star unit. The Eldar are there because it gives a a massive boost in ability. Shooting fighting, etc..Also the stones , allow a reduction in warp cost which increases your odds. Yeah he loses his invulnerable but he's still in a squad of 10 dudes with invulnerables.
IF he uses Malefic. Its really a possession engine, that's all it does is try to maximize the number of times you get possession if I get 2+ possessions and you don't wipe those units out. Well, that's 2 plus Greater Daemons on turn one.
The whole purpose is to get possession. There's not a single army that can stop 4 or more Greater Daemons in one turn. Especially if you go with Flyers. Flyers who can summon or Combat beasts like KofS.
It's actually kind of better to fish for Invisibility as well.
You have to kill every thing that has possession in one turn.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Its a win big or go home army. Also your ignoring the other half of the army. Just saying.
Not to mention the 12 inch apocalypse rule, imagine rolling a one at the wrong time if you bunch up to avoid the bubble then template weapons will eat you up. Also that seer council which is basically what the list is has no hit and run, so it can and will be tied up. I see weaknesses in the list but its strengths are obvious also so I will give it a go.
Its not hard to keep your dudes away from each other. Also it's a 6inch bubble. You can't deploy with in 12. Also, Fateweaver let's you reroll it if you some how don't managed to keep it away from each other. If you go the other route with invisibilty instead of trying to get fortune, you can have the squad be 6s to hit, 2+ saves from conceal.
Tarpitting this unit is a cool idea until you realize they can summon Daemons while still in combat. Or just you know the entire rest of the army charges you. Or one of them turns into a KoS.
You have four objective secured units, all of which are extremely easy to kill. You have no effective way of deme hint an OS enemy army. By default you have pretty much lost most objective games versus good opponents with good lists.
And wow, can that army be alpha struck. Heck even a pair of Thunderfire Cannons makes this list cry.
Kill 16 T3 5++ troops and eliminate 8WC. Not to mention that Council can be hit hard T1 as well. Every perils kills a Warlock, almost. This list is so reliant on getting the right powers and many times it gets the power but not on a model that can keep it.
If you do get Possession you could feasible throw enough dice to bring in 3 Greater Daemons. Heck, that may even happen occasionally, but you aren't likely to have Possession more than 1-2 times. And it may be tough to keep that to more than two units. They aren't free and aren't assaulting for two turns. And that is if the Possession holder doesn't die. Or fail to cast, or actually get Denied.
Warlock rolls a Sanctuary, darn hell get to use it one or two turns before he kills himself.
Is this a potentially strong army, yes? Is it going to break 7th over its knee like Objective Secured Wave Serpents? No. Is this list going to consistently win GTs? No.
It's strong, I'm not denying that, but it's not broken strong. IMO, the scariest thing is Fateweaver with a 2++, but hey! you may be sacrificing me that Herald anyway, or I can just kill him.
You have four objective secured units, all of which are extremely easy to kill. You have no effective way of deme hint an OS enemy army. By default you have pretty much lost most objective games versus good opponents with good lists.
And wow, can that army be alpha struck. Heck even a pair of Thunderfire Cannons makes this list cry.
Kill 16 T3 5++ troops and eliminate 8WC. Not to mention that Council can be hit hard T1 as well. Every perils kills a Warlock, almost. This list is so reliant on getting the right powers and many times it gets the power but not on a model that can keep it.
If you do get Possession you could feasible throw enough dice to bring in 3 Greater Daemons. Heck, that may even happen occasionally, but you aren't likely to have Possession more than 1-2 times. And it may be tough to keep that to more than two units. They aren't free and aren't assaulting for two turns. And that is if the Possession holder doesn't die. Or fail to cast, or actually get Denied.
Warlock rolls a Sanctuary, darn hell get to use it one or two turns before he kills himself.
Is this a potentially strong army, yes? Is it going to break 7th over its knee like Objective Secured Wave Serpents? No. Is this list going to consistently win GTs? No.
It's strong, I'm not denying that, but it's not broken strong. IMO, the scariest thing is Fateweaver with a 2++, but hey! you may be sacrificing me that Herald anyway, or I can just kill him.
Possession will succeed every single time. Here's why : It doesn't matter if you die or Perils. 8 Dice I think is a 90%/ 88% chance because I don't care if my guy dies.
You're also ignoring the fact that you have to kill those 16 guys in one turn. Also, losing a squad of Pink Horrors does not affect the army at all. Hell kill all of them. Doesn't matter.Alpha strike is the main thing that kills it you have to kill every single summoner and reduce it below 20 Warp Charge before the end of the next turn or it just re ups and goes again.
I have to run out but yeah. It's a Possession engine. That's all it does. That's all it cares about. You need to kill every single model that has Possession on turn 1 and reduce it to below 20 Warp Charge. Other wise it starts back up and dumps a bunch of gak on you.
Your not going to have troops. We don't play to 2 turns. After the first turn is over and you don't kill those models. It's going to put an additional 1000 more points on the board.
Thunderfires "make this list cry?" , sure you will kill some models with thunderfire, but I'm going to get my LOS rolls. Each level 1 I get rid of, I get 2 Warp Charge. If I kill 4 Warlocks and summon 2 Greater Daemons and 2 Heralds of Tzeentch. The last of which have a about a 80 percent chance of getting another possession. That's 8 more points.You absolutely have to kill every summoner on turn one and reduce it below 20 Warp charge. You have to wipe out all ten of those Warlocks, every herald, every squad of Pink Horrors . If you do that you win.
that's letting you get the first turn. That was the goal you get the first turn, and try and wipe the army. So first turn that's what you have to do. Kill all of it.The Warlocks are there to die. I don't care if they get killed from Perils. that's what everyone is so worried about and it doesn't matter because we're not playing the same game. I'm playing point trade, your playing shoot my models that I point traded and still keep trying to stop me from point trading. Okay here you kill over half the army on turn one and we are in a wide open field. Let's just keep making up scenarios.Drop in half your army lets say 30 Sternguard in Drop Pods all with hellfire. That's not the point of the army. The point is to be viable and it is. It will wipe you off the board if it gets a initial summoning. You have to stop this.
Another one would be same list similar but dump the Eldar and go for a Leafblower from Imperial Guard.
You have four objective secured units, all of which are extremely easy to kill. You have no effective way of deme hint an OS enemy army. By default you have pretty much lost most objective games versus good opponents with good lists.
And wow, can that army be alpha struck. Heck even a pair of Thunderfire Cannons makes this list cry.
Kill 16 T3 5++ troops and eliminate 8WC. Not to mention that Council can be hit hard T1 as well. Every perils kills a Warlock, almost. This list is so reliant on getting the right powers and many times it gets the power but not on a model that can keep it.
If you do get Possession you could feasible throw enough dice to bring in 3 Greater Daemons. Heck, that may even happen occasionally, but you aren't likely to have Possession more than 1-2 times. And it may be tough to keep that to more than two units. They aren't free and aren't assaulting for two turns. And that is if the Possession holder doesn't die. Or fail to cast, or actually get Denied.
Warlock rolls a Sanctuary, darn hell get to use it one or two turns before he kills himself.
Is this a potentially strong army, yes? Is it going to break 7th over its knee like Objective Secured Wave Serpents? No. Is this list going to consistently win GTs? No.
It's strong, I'm not denying that, but it's not broken strong. IMO, the scariest thing is Fateweaver with a 2++, but hey! you may be sacrificing me that Herald anyway, or I can just kill him.
Possession will succeed every single time. Here's why : It doesn't matter if you die or Perils. 8 Dice I think is a 90%/ 88% chance because I don't care if my guy dies.
You're also ignoring the fact that you have to kill those 16 guys in one turn. Also, losing a squad of Pink Horrors does not affect the army at all. Hell kill all of them. Doesn't matter.Alpha strike is the main thing that kills it you have to kill every single summoner and reduce it below 20 Warp Charge before the end of the next turn or it just re ups and goes again.
I have to run out but yeah. It's a Possession engine. That's all it does. That's all it cares about. You need to kill every single model that has Possession on turn 1 and reduce it to below 20 Warp Charge. Other wise it starts back up and dumps a bunch of gak on you.
Your not going to have troops. We don't play to 2 turns. After the first turn is over and you don't kill those models. It's going to put an additional 1000 more points on the board.
Thunderfires "make this list cry?" , sure you will kill some models with thunderfire, but I'm going to get my LOS rolls. Each level 1 I get rid of, I get 2 Warp Charge. If I kill 4 Warlocks and summon 2 Greater Daemons and 2 Heralds of Tzeentch. The last of which have a about a 80 percent chance of getting another possession. That's 8 more points.
You absolutely have to kill every summoner on turn one and reduce it below 20 Warp charge. You have to wipe out all ten of those Warlocks, every herald, every squad of Pink Horrors . If you do that you win.
that's letting you get the first turn. That was the goal you get the first turn, and try and wipe the army. So first turn that's what you have to do. Kill all of it.
Objective Secured.
1000pts a turn, not happening, don't forget to subtract out the MLs you lose to make that happen. And the Turns those GDs don't do much.
Don't care about the Horrors, they are Objective Secured and protecting the Heralds. Possession a unit of Horrors, two Heralds out in the open. Lose a Herald for Possession, look at Net gain.
You make a lot of assumptions, cheery pick your points, and assume things are favorable. In a year, I'll gladly PM you an apology if I'm wrong, but I don't think that's going to happen.
Its a seer council list with no hit and run, that relies on the psychic powers for offense that's a serious problem in my opinion psychic powers are not guaranteed. What happens when only 1 warlock or 1 horror squad gets the power you need your in trouble, not to mention what happens if you don't get the power at all. Seer council without hit and run is hard for me to comprehend as a serious threat.
if you put a psyker character into a UNIT, making him a part of that unit for all purposes.
and that UNIT casts the summon greater demon power,
That UNIT is dead, including the IC's who are a part of it...
im sorry. what was that about spamming summons on greater demons?
have fun not doing anything for a min of 2 turns just to get a walking greater demon (3 turns if it has wings since it has to arrive, not move 1st turn, 2nd turn change flight modes, 3rd turn charge)
You have four objective secured units, all of which are extremely easy to kill. You have no effective way of deme hint an OS enemy army. By default you have pretty much lost most objective games versus good opponents with good lists.
And wow, can that army be alpha struck. Heck even a pair of Thunderfire Cannons makes this list cry.
Kill 16 T3 5++ troops and eliminate 8WC. Not to mention that Council can be hit hard T1 as well. Every perils kills a Warlock, almost. This list is so reliant on getting the right powers and many times it gets the power but not on a model that can keep it.
If you do get Possession you could feasible throw enough dice to bring in 3 Greater Daemons. Heck, that may even happen occasionally, but you aren't likely to have Possession more than 1-2 times. And it may be tough to keep that to more than two units. They aren't free and aren't assaulting for two turns. And that is if the Possession holder doesn't die. Or fail to cast, or actually get Denied.
Warlock rolls a Sanctuary, darn hell get to use it one or two turns before he kills himself.
Is this a potentially strong army, yes? Is it going to break 7th over its knee like Objective Secured Wave Serpents? No. Is this list going to consistently win GTs? No.
It's strong, I'm not denying that, but it's not broken strong. IMO, the scariest thing is Fateweaver with a 2++, but hey! you may be sacrificing me that Herald anyway, or I can just kill him.
Possession will succeed every single time. Here's why : It doesn't matter if you die or Perils. 8 Dice I think is a 90%/ 88% chance because I don't care if my guy dies.
You're also ignoring the fact that you have to kill those 16 guys in one turn. Also, losing a squad of Pink Horrors does not affect the army at all. Hell kill all of them. Doesn't matter.Alpha strike is the main thing that kills it you have to kill every single summoner and reduce it below 20 Warp Charge before the end of the next turn or it just re ups and goes again.
I have to run out but yeah. It's a Possession engine. That's all it does. That's all it cares about. You need to kill every single model that has Possession on turn 1 and reduce it to below 20 Warp Charge. Other wise it starts back up and dumps a bunch of gak on you.
Your not going to have troops. We don't play to 2 turns. After the first turn is over and you don't kill those models. It's going to put an additional 1000 more points on the board.
Thunderfires "make this list cry?" , sure you will kill some models with thunderfire, but I'm going to get my LOS rolls. Each level 1 I get rid of, I get 2 Warp Charge. If I kill 4 Warlocks and summon 2 Greater Daemons and 2 Heralds of Tzeentch. The last of which have a about a 80 percent chance of getting another possession. That's 8 more points.
You absolutely have to kill every summoner on turn one and reduce it below 20 Warp charge. You have to wipe out all ten of those Warlocks, every herald, every squad of Pink Horrors . If you do that you win.
that's letting you get the first turn. That was the goal you get the first turn, and try and wipe the army. So first turn that's what you have to do. Kill all of it.
Objective Secured.
1000pts a turn, not happening, don't forget to subtract out the MLs you lose to make that happen. And the Turns those GDs don't do much.
Don't care about the Horrors, they are Objective Secured and protecting the Heralds. Possession a unit of Horrors, two Heralds out in the open. Lose a Herald for Possession, look at Net gain.
You make a lot of assumptions, cheery pick your points, and assume things are favorable. In a year, I'll gladly PM you an apology if I'm wrong, but I don't think that's going to happen.
It's not assumptions it's math, if you summon 3 Greater Daemons, if they were all Lords of change that's 775 points using 24 warp charge @ 8 dice. 4 Greater Daemons at 32 Dice.
that's the issue, your not playing my game, I am playing something completely different. I'm using "points" to get rolls to get "more points". You have to stop my points.
Also I still need to maximize that list because it's only goal really is to roll for possession. I'm not going to use notation.
Okay let me explain it in math.
X is the amount I have to spend to get a % to get Y.
X is equal to the number of points I have to spend to get Y. When I get to 100% I get Y.
My efficiency is using my points to get higher percentage to get Y
That's it I only care about getting Y and getting more Y.
Because while we both start at 1850 , my goal is to go way beyond that.
This is why 5 50 point models or 250 points to get 94% is more efficient than 2 125 Point squads that are 250 that give me 33%.
I want each of my units to just give me percentages. The higher the percentage, the more likely I am to get Y.
So X = Points spent to raise my % to get Y
We're not playing 40k, I'm playing a dice game. You're playing 40k , your job is to stop me from playing my dice game. I'm going to try to maximize my points to get more chances at my dice game and prevent you from stopping me.
This is why
4 Heralds at Level 4
6 Squads of 11 Pink Horrors
And
1 Eldar Farseer
1 Eldar Farseer
10 Warlocks
5 Jetbikes
5 Jetbikes
Is 40 Warp Charge and a better "dice game for me" Why?
Because it increases my chances of getting 5 Ys to 99 Percent.
if you put a psyker character into a UNIT, making him a part of that unit for all purposes.
and that UNIT casts the summon greater demon power,
That UNIT is dead, including the IC's who are a part of it...
im sorry. what was that about spamming summons on greater demons?
have fun not doing anything for a min of 2 turns just to get a walking greater demon (3 turns if it has wings since it has to arrive, not move 1st turn, 2nd turn change flight modes, 3rd turn charge)
Nope. That's only for units that have the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule. Not for units of Psykers. There's a difference. If I have a unit of Pink Horrors with Sacrifice and a Herald with them and the Pink Horrors cast Possession. all of the pink horrors die . Not the Herald.
You can play the would could should rules, but your ignoring the fact that I can summon Greater Daemons that can in fact charge on the first turn. Or fly around and summon more Daemons.
nope, its for all powers, you need to re read the psychich powers section hollis...
its very VERY clear, you select a UNIT to cast a power.
a psyker in a unit of non psykers, the unit is ok, psyker dies.
but a IC pskyer in a unit with the BOP rule, the psyker and unit are both gone as the unit has the BOP rule, and the psyker is part of the unit for all purposes
No it isn't. Take it to YMDC you are just wrong. Also warlocks don't have the Brotherhood of Psykers rule. The only one that has it is the Pink Horrors and it still doesn't even work that way.
Go make the thread I'll argue with you there. I hate rules derails in threads.
"If this power is successfully manifested, the Psyker is immediately removed as a casualty (if the Psyker was part of a unit with the Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rule, remove the entire unit as casualties). If, when using this power, the Psyker fails his Psychic test, he automatically suffers Perils of the Warp."
Under Independent Characters
"While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters."
Very clear, Possess while Heralds are in a Unit of Pink Horrors loses the whole unit. Very very clear.
Kind of a moot point since you know thier ICs and can just leave the unit, but let's argue it out over in YMDC
Zagmon do you understand what I am saying about how I'm not playing the game the same way? Like I don't care if things die as long as I get my dice game? My goal is to protect my dice game , I don't care what you do.
Hollismason wrote: Kind of a moot point since you know thier ICs and can just leave the unit, but let's argue it out over in YMDC
Zagmon do you understand what I am saying about how I'm not playing the game the same way?
And leave your Heralds out in the open or attach them to different Horrors. Works if you detach the Herald who has possession or detach the Herald(s) if the Horrors have it.
Either way, its a huge handicap if the detached Herald fails to cast the power, or is forced to be left in the open. Huge pain if you are going for Possession with Heralds and Horrors.
Hollismason wrote: Kind of a moot point since you know thier ICs and can just leave the unit, but let's argue it out over in YMDC
Zagmon do you understand what I am saying about how I'm not playing the game the same way?
And leave your Heralds out in the open or attach them to different Horrors. Works if you detach the Herald who has possession or detach the Herald(s) if the Horrors have it.
Either way, its a huge handicap if the detached Herald fails to cast the power, or is forced to be left in the open. Huge pain if you are going for Possession with Heralds and Horrors.
Not really so much on Pink Horrors, also probably gonna get the power off because Perilling doesn't matter. It's not a huge "handicap". Even if it does work that way ( which it might just not going argue here about it and it looks like what you posted is pretty clear".
Actually, I do. When It takes 1-3 turns to sacrifice a 120pt Herald to Summon a 230pt LOC, you have an opportunity cost involved. And if that Herald happens to be the one holding onto the Grimior, it is very costly. More than a Points trade, a capability reduction.
I look at Opportunity cost. Now, sacrificing a Warlock for a GD is a good trade, but with only one roll they is a very low chance of actually getting one. With 9 Warlocks its 20%. And not all Warlocks are rolling for it.
And every time a Possession goes off, that eliminates that capability from the army. You aren't rolling more Possessions on your GDs. Now, when summoning Heralds, yes, then you have the potential to add GDs the next turn assuming my army can't counter and kill lone Heralds by prioritizing any Herald that rolls Possession.
You see exponential growth through rose colored glasses, I see Opportunity cost.
And don't forget about how much Objective Secured can dominate this army by simple surviving and moving to win.
hollis, this is a thread about counters to demons,
the # 1 counter being,
knowing the relevant rules.
Zag and I have quoted relevent, correct rules, that are part of countering the "mania" that is mostly feuled by peoples mis understanding of the new rules.
the fact that if they put a IC psyker into a unit with BOP and cast greater demon summoning, and there for lose the unit,, which includes the character, is a hard counter...
same with losing a non IC psyker who just happens to be part of the unit of BOP's.
this forces them to put guys out in the open, as zag has said.
Yeah it doesn't work that way and it doesn't matter if they put people out in the unit regardless they can have them in a unit on the first turn leave the unit and be possessed if that's your "issue, that's not some huge disadvantage. They're going to power through a Possession anyway as a perils doesn't affect them. Warlocks aren't Brotherhood of Psykers and it doesn't a apply to them. A unit of Psykers is not a "unit with brotherhood of psykers".
The hardfact is that unless you tailor or have a very specific army that it isweak against ( which it can counter). It's a incredibly strong army.
I've actually been playing the army. So have several other peope on the forums. I haven't built my army up to be a "uber" army either. I'm basically using some old Necron Warrior flayers as "daemons" as i like the way they look and using some stuff from Dark Vengeance and some pink horrors and heralds. I've got some greater daemons etc.. That's it and it still wins.
Being able to bring more troops onto the board , regardless of whether you super charge it or go for it just halfway is incredibly powerful. It's why allying is good. Because you don't need a dedicated 400 Warp Charge to make the army work because once it gets started it generates more warp.
Honest, question and it's not being mean, but have you actually played against it? Like a real game. Like a honest to god real game where you sat down and they played a summoning army and you played a normal army?
Have you actually played against it?
Cause it's been a week in a half at most, for most people. I'm still triyng to figure it out and throw things out there and see what works. We do know what the hard lists are gonna kind of look like already. We don't know what the combo is that is going to break, but even normally it's a incredibly strong army.
Hollismason wrote: Yeah it doesn't work that way and it doesn't matter if they put people out in the unit regardless they can have them in a unit on the first turn leave the unit and be possessed if that's your "issue, that's not some huge disadvantage. They're going to power through a Possession anyway as a perils doesn't affect them. Warlocks aren't Brotherhood of Psykers and it doesn't a apply to them. A unit of Psykers is not a "unit with brotherhood of psykers".
The hardfact is that unless you tailor or have a very specific army that it isweak against ( which it can counter). It's a incredibly strong army.
I've actually been playing the army. So have several other peope on the forums. I haven't built my army up to be a "uber" army either. I'm basically using some old Necron Warrior flayers as "daemons" as i like the way they look and using some stuff from Dark Vengeance and some pink horrors and heralds. I've got some greater daemons etc.. That's it and it still wins.
Being able to bring more troops onto the board , regardless of whether you super charge it or go for it just halfway is incredibly powerful. It's why allying is good. Because you don't need a dedicated 400 Warp Charge to make the army work because once it gets started it generates more warp.
Honest, question and it's not being mean, but have you actually played against it? Like a real game. Like a honest to god real game where you sat down and they played a summoning army and you played a normal army?
Have you actually played against it?
Cause it's been a week in a half at most, for most people. I'm still triyng to figure it out and throw things out there and see what works. We do know what the hard lists are gonna kind of look like already. We don't know what the combo is that is going to break, but even normally it's a incredibly strong army.
Strong does not mean broken. I think the words that you are looking for is closer to "its god damn annoying to play/against" It is a strong list, just like there are tons of other strong lists out there. As to playing against it, nope but I want to. I think it presents unique challenges that I need to incorporate into my lists but I dont see why it cant be beatable. It all depends on the missions and mission objectives. However for the purposes of time I can see needing to limit it. What makes the time limits work is that the game turns get shorter and shorter which will not be the case with the daemon army and they will actually get longer.
I am actually trying to see if the local daemon player would be willing to try it out against me.
Hollis... that you ask me if I have played a game against D factory... im my thread... where I talk about my, and my other TO's test games against D factory... that just shows your lack of reading skills...
I played a broken as broken can be d factory that another TO had set up to test it... my TAC guard list, with 0 tailoring, tabled him with very little effort despite him making all his rolls and getting first turn, and summoning a greater demon.
in the other games that play tested D factory against other REAL tournament lists, the eldar creamed D factory, tau creamed them, GK creamed them, IG creamed them... and so on.
you can claim that an IC in a BOP' unit is not part of that unit for all rules purposes, but the BRB states the exact opposite to what you say, so you are wrong, take that to YMDC, this thread is for listing counters. untill the BRB doesnt say an IC is part of a unit for all purposes, that IC is part of the unit.
again... lack of reading skills is your own fault if you cannot read that rule, if you are playing against people and playing WRONG... no wonder you are winning if you ignore all the rules that are detrimental to you... just as with your thread about you wanting to have multiple portal glyphs simply because you wanted them, despite everyone quoting you rules on how it was illegal... and you trying to cast the same power 2x with a unit.
d factory is only UBER if people are cheating... plain and simple
Hollismason wrote: Yeah it doesn't work that way and it doesn't matter if they put people out in the unit regardless they can have them in a unit on the first turn leave the unit and be possessed if that's your "issue, that's not some huge disadvantage. They're going to power through a Possession anyway as a perils doesn't affect them. Warlocks aren't Brotherhood of Psykers and it doesn't a apply to them. A unit of Psykers is not a "unit with brotherhood of psykers".
The hardfact is that unless you tailor or have a very specific army that it isweak against ( which it can counter). It's a incredibly strong army.
I've actually been playing the army. So have several other peope on the forums. I haven't built my army up to be a "uber" army either. I'm basically using some old Necron Warrior flayers as "daemons" as i like the way they look and using some stuff from Dark Vengeance and some pink horrors and heralds. I've got some greater daemons etc.. That's it and it still wins.
Being able to bring more troops onto the board , regardless of whether you super charge it or go for it just halfway is incredibly powerful. It's why allying is good. Because you don't need a dedicated 400 Warp Charge to make the army work because once it gets started it generates more warp.
Honest, question and it's not being mean, but have you actually played against it? Like a real game. Like a honest to god real game where you sat down and they played a summoning army and you played a normal army?
Have you actually played against it?
Cause it's been a week in a half at most, for most people. I'm still triyng to figure it out and throw things out there and see what works. We do know what the hard lists are gonna kind of look like already. We don't know what the combo is that is going to break, but even normally it's a incredibly strong army.
Nope, haven't gotten to put the models on the table yet and I really want to. Not having played them yet doesn't refute the math, the same math you keep using. You mention powering through Possession, how many dice? How are you still going to power through Fortune? How are you going to Power through Sanctuary? Gotta try and Power through Burnt Earth? How many of your ~33 dice are you going to use? How many WC can I eliminate per turn? How will managing and rolling random powers affect the reliability of the build? What if none of your Warlocks roll Possession, ~20% chance. What if none of your Heralds roll it 6%. What if you don't roll Fortune on your Farseer, 50%. How many rolls for Sanctuary? How will you position yourself on the board to minimize Alpha Strikes, vs shooting armies. How is that deployment going to affect late game Objective Grabs? How are you going to kill Objective Secured Transports. How does your opponent having 12+ Deny Dice affect your decision making? How do you handle a dual GK Stormraven build when they start launching Mind Strike Missiles at your Seerstar? How is this build going to have the reliability, versatility, and potency to dominate and break 7th over it's knee? So many possibilities.
8 Dice on a WC3 power still has just under an 86% chance of success. 10dice, 95%. That is ~4 Powers per turn, maybe more is you risk your opponent Denying. Everything I talk about involves math and probabilities. I love statistics and find them incredibly invaluable when building a list.
I have said multiple times that it is a strong build and has potential, but I have also said it is not going to break this edition nor is it going to be the strongest build out there. Strong but playable is great, nothing wrong with Strong builds. Broken builds like 6th's Screamerstar are not. Even Taudar Battle Brothers broke last edition, I don't think Daemon Factory will break this edition.
And I've never said it isn't a strong build, I'm saying it's not broken to the point of wrecking 7th.
Hollismason wrote: Yeah it doesn't work that way and it doesn't matter if they put people out in the unit regardless they can have them in a unit on the first turn leave the unit and be possessed if that's your "issue, that's not some huge disadvantage. They're going to power through a Possession anyway as a perils doesn't affect them. Warlocks aren't Brotherhood of Psykers and it doesn't a apply to them. A unit of Psykers is not a "unit with brotherhood of psykers".
The hardfact is that unless you tailor or have a very specific army that it isweak against ( which it can counter). It's a incredibly strong army.
I've actually been playing the army. So have several other peope on the forums. I haven't built my army up to be a "uber" army either. I'm basically using some old Necron Warrior flayers as "daemons" as i like the way they look and using some stuff from Dark Vengeance and some pink horrors and heralds. I've got some greater daemons etc.. That's it and it still wins.
Being able to bring more troops onto the board , regardless of whether you super charge it or go for it just halfway is incredibly powerful. It's why allying is good. Because you don't need a dedicated 400 Warp Charge to make the army work because once it gets started it generates more warp.
Honest, question and it's not being mean, but have you actually played against it? Like a real game. Like a honest to god real game where you sat down and they played a summoning army and you played a normal army?
Have you actually played against it?
Cause it's been a week in a half at most, for most people. I'm still triyng to figure it out and throw things out there and see what works. We do know what the hard lists are gonna kind of look like already. We don't know what the combo is that is going to break, but even normally it's a incredibly strong army.
Nope, haven't gotten to put the models on the table yet and I really want to. Not having played them yet doesn't refute the math, the same math you keep using. You mention powering through Possession, how many dice? How are you still going to power through Fortune? How are you going to Power through Sanctuary? Gotta try and Power through Burnt Earth? How many of your ~33 dice are you going to use? How many WC can I eliminate per turn? How will managing and rolling random powers affect the reliability of the build? What if none of your Warlocks roll Possession, ~20% chance. What if none of your Heralds roll it 6%. What if you don't roll Fortune on your Farseer, 50%. How many rolls for Sanctuary? How will you position yourself on the board to minimize Alpha Strikes, vs shooting armies. How is that deployment going to affect late game Objective Grabs? How are you going to kill Objective Secured Transports. How does your opponent having 12+ Deny Dice affect your decision making? How do you handle a dual GK Stormraven build when they start launching Mind Strike Missiles at your Seerstar? How is this build going to have the reliability, versatility, and potency to dominate and break 7th over it's knee? So many possibilities.
8 Dice on a WC3 power still has just under an 86% chance of success. 10dice, 95%. That is ~4 Powers per turn, maybe more is you risk your opponent Denying. Everything I talk about involves math and probabilities. I love statistics and find them incredibly invaluable when building a list.
I have said multiple times that it is a strong build and has potential, but I have also said it is not going to break this edition nor is it going to be the strongest build out there. Strong but playable is great, nothing wrong with Strong builds. Broken builds like 6th's Screamerstar are not. Even Taudar Battle Brothers broke last edition, I don't think Daemon Factory will break this edition.
And I've never said it isn't a strong build, I'm saying it's not broken to the point of wrecking 7th.
I've never said it was broke, I said eventually it'll break it. I haven't broken it. I've created incredibly strong lists and played them multiple times. It's most of all a really fun but also tedious army.
It's been out 2 weeks basically, it wasn't til like 4 days ago people started realizing the Chaos Sorcerer thing along with figuring out possibities and breaking them. 4 Possessions at 8 dice is pretty high, it will be 2 to 3 though is my point.
People were asking how allies make them better, I showed them. Allies make the army better. Especially Chaos as you can still have a summoner, troops that have a psyker, a heldrake and it's like 500 points.It's why I think tourney's will start banning Come the Apocalypse Allies. Also we don't know yet if people are gonna swing towards " Yeah combined forces are okay" . I've always been under the " Sing FOC, Single Ally system". it gets better with that.
It's a incredible army and will be a few months really til everything is figured out, 20 or so games doesn't make me a expert but I have been pouring over books and notes about and tlaking with others. This has also been a huge derail.
So let's talk about how to actually kill it for cheap.
Hollismason wrote: Maybe your other TOs kind of suck? It's not a easy win army.It istsuper strong and can be more so with allies.
Post some lists of your own.
You have changed your tune.
"It's not a easy win army. It is super strong and can be more so with allies." Is not the same as Broken, and a difficult to play army will have its hard counters. It can't be broken if lower quality players can't use it, if it requires a skilled player and mistake free play it certainly isn't a broken army. I know and have played against some mean players, guys to play some nasty 40k. If it takes one of them to play the Daemon Factory, then it isn't broken, it's merely viable.
If someone is playing Daemon Factory by the rules it will not be the powerhouse of 7th edition, it will fall to the Objective Secured options that are out there. The power in this edition is mobile and resilient mechanized Objective Secured Scoring.
The math shows us that it is much more likely its only 1-2 Possessions per army, and that can be dealt with.
Hollismason wrote: I've always said that we haven't seen the "Taudar" combo yet with it. No ones come up with it.
People are trying to find it though.
Actually the lower the points of the game the more powerful the army becomes.
Mathmatcially it shows that your odds are basically 1 Possession per 5 Rolls. with a 3 ML getting a higher percentage.
Also that average is actually a little higher on the ML3s and ML2s as you have to account that you have reroll. It's not a vast increase
Basically , that number is reduced so it stops actually being a 1/6th chance the first time, eventually on the last time it goes down to a 1/4.
I do happen to understand the math.
Yes, the chance of not getting it with a ML3 Psyker is (5/6*4/5*3/4) or 1/2. The chance of not getting it with four ML3 Psykers is (1/2*1/2*1/2*1/2) or 1/16.
1/16 Chance of Getting 4 Possessions
4/16(1/4) Chance of Getting 3 Possessions
6/16(3/8) Chance of Getting 2 Possessions
4/16(1/4) Chance of Getting 1 Possessions
1/16 Chance of Getting 0 Possessions
There is the Breakdown of rolling Possession using all four ML3 Psykers.
If you really focus all of your Heralds you can get at least two Possessions in 11/16 of your games.
Yeah it's why statistically you want more Pink Horrors and cheap Level 1s than large units in order to increase your odds. Of course \they are odds, and can only lead you so far but it is a easy way to kind of look at a army and go "Well I'm most likely to gert more X than Y".
I am not really feeling the threat of mass possession. The reason for this is that they lack objective secured, lack any significant shooting (if you bring in that many greater daemons you don't even have WC to use witchfires with), and they either walk or cannot charge for 2 turns.
I will give you 600 pts of daemons for 2-3 turns of not being shoot or assaulted. Also if you use 4 possessions with a 90% to manifest you will fail one of them 35% of the time. That is 9 dice per attempt BTW so 4 possession would be 36 dice.
Purifiers can be a mean shutdown for the deamon factory. Turn 1 advance 12" in a transport and snap fire 4 shots per psycannon in heavy 4 mode. Turn 2 tank shock 12" into the middle of the deamonic army and cast cleansing flame.
A 9" nova has an 18" diameter.
Cursed earth has a 24" diameter, but is a double edged sword because it will crowd the newly summoned units into a 24" diameter area.
Heralds summoned by sacrifice are not able to join a unit until it's controlling player's next turn so they each eat 2D6 S5 ignore cover hits and almost certainly die. T3 horrors and deamonettes are highly dependent on shrouding from Be'Lekor to keep them alive.
You'll probably need to toss a ton of dice and eat a perils to ensure it doesn't get cancelled with a DTW, but purifiers have brotherhood of psykers and thanks to henchmen GK can keep up with deamons on generating power dice.
I think every army is going to have a bad match up unless it's nigh indestructible type death stars. That's given.
The argument of "who goes first" when planning armies is completely trite. Let's look past how bad the roll off to go first is within the 7E book now, and realize if we're back to "he goes first, wins the game" style play, then we've all lost. That's boring. And for it's downsides, 6E at least showed a strong emphasis on going second as being the key to success which made for more interesting games when not dealing with the deathstars.
I have already offered a list that I feel would be a solid TAC and that would be a thorn in daemons side. Folks are offering Grey Knights, to that I say... uh, duh?
The problem is, however, that power armored Grey Knights are still tepid given their insane points cost on a single T4 3+ dude. Yes, I can see the return of razorspam thanks to Coteaz, Psykers, Purifiers, etc. But this army, I feel, has way more weaknesses than the daemon farm in that it's far easily stripped than the daemon farm is given various opponents. It's a one trick pony, so to speak, where as the daemon farm can be any trick you choose.
I read the post made by EasySauce and his battle report and it seemed like your friend is doing it wrong. I'm not claiming to be an expert, but as I read across the internet, there's either a strong notion that this list style of daemons army is extremely powerful when played well or people are going to a great deal of trouble to falsify battle reports. I'll go for Occam's Razor and my gut instinct telling me this list will be one of the "new hotness" of 40k.
I also don't see "possession spam" as being the key to success as it doesn't really fight back in the early stages as it should. Easysauce is correct that you cannot just give the first turn or two to the opponent. However, proper first turn stress tactics along with the appropriate summons (shooting for maximum efficiency units in the scenario provided, just not going more heralds/horrors/warp charge dice), this list will be the scalpel that defines more competitive play. I see it as a "Nick Rose" style list, like his Eldar he made famous with 2x 20 man Guardian Squads, Foot-Farseers, Wraithknights, Warp Spiders, and Wave Serpents.
Except this list now allows you to nearly reliably bring the units you need to the table every single time. It's the epitome of TAC.
I'm not a daemons expert when it comes to list building, but let me break down what I'd probably play as a starting point:
-Soulgrind of Chaos; Baleful Torrent, Mark of Slaanesh
-Soulgrind of Chaos; Baleful Torrent, Mark of Slaanesh
-Soulgrind of Chaos; Baleful Torrent, Mark of Slaanesh
I'm honestly debating whether or not to drop Fateweaver for Be'lakor in this list. Having guaranteed Invisibility on Dogstar is gross. Like stupid gross. I do enjoy Fateweavers control of the Warp Storm table, rerolls, and flexibility in power dispensing. He can also be where another FMC needs to be to apply pressure.
I intend to summon a Herald with the Grimoire if I feel it's necessary. Not sure if it will be or not, but hey, that's the risk.
Obviously, Skulltaker rides dirty with Khorne Dogs as ablative wounds delivery to ensure the dogs aren't eating Instant Death on approach. Running right behind them is 3 Soulgrinder of Chaos that are moving, on average, about ~15" a turn with fleet. Because they are only BS3, and I love my Dreadknights, I'd much rather have the torrent flamer as these guys are supposed to get into close combat ASAP and imply insane turn two pressure.
Then I press forward with some pink horrors to "throw" the new summons out. Standing back in the deployment zone and expecting your units to be succesful is a suckers bet. With the pressure of dogs (potentially invisible?) and 3 grinders, that should be an excellent amount of threat overload. I won't fear psycannon spam knights and would love for them to come closer so I can hit them with my sword, to boot.
Is it perfect? I dunno, I've not played daemons since 5E. But this list gives me 21+d6 warp charges, will be plenty to do my dirty deeds. I'd probably drop some horrors and dog or two to squeeze in Be'lakor as a replacement for Kairos should I felt it was necessary to have invisible bumper chasers.
Again, I expect daemon farm to be one of the best TAC armies in the game given it's keen ability for adaptation against any list. I already saw countless battle reports of the top table kinda guys adapting their deathstars to allow flexibility, now you have an entire list around the concept. I think it'll be gross when played right, but it will be entirely unforgiving played by the common guy trying to netlist.
TheKbob wrote: I think every army is going to have a bad match up unless it's nigh indestructible type death stars. That's given.
The argument of "who goes first" when planning armies is completely trite. Let's look past how bad the roll off to go first is within the 7E book now, and realize if we're back to "he goes first, wins the game" style play, then we've all lost. That's boring. And for it's downsides, 6E at least showed a strong emphasis on going second as being the key to success which made for more interesting games when not dealing with the deathstars.
I have already offered a list that I feel would be a solid TAC and that would be a thorn in daemons side. Folks are offering Grey Knights, to that I say... uh, duh?
The problem is, however, that power armored Grey Knights are still tepid given their insane points cost on a single T4 3+ dude. Yes, I can see the return of razorspam thanks to Coteaz, Psykers, Purifiers, etc. But this army, I feel, has way more weaknesses than the daemon farm in that it's far easily stripped than the daemon farm is given various opponents. It's a one trick pony, so to speak, where as the daemon farm can be any trick you choose.
I read the post made by EasySauce and his battle report and it seemed like your friend is doing it wrong. I'm not claiming to be an expert, but as I read across the internet, there's either a strong notion that this list style of daemons army is extremely powerful when played well or people are going to a great deal of trouble to falsify battle reports. I'll go for Occam's Razor and my gut instinct telling me this list will be one of the "new hotness" of 40k.
I also don't see "possession spam" as being the key to success as it doesn't really fight back in the early stages as it should. Easysauce is correct that you cannot just give the first turn or two to the opponent. However, proper first turn stress tactics along with the appropriate summons (shooting for maximum efficiency units in the scenario provided, just not going more heralds/horrors/warp charge dice), this list will be the scalpel that defines more competitive play. I see it as a "Nick Rose" style list, like his Eldar he made famous with 2x 20 man Guardian Squads, Foot-Farseers, Wraithknights, Warp Spiders, and Wave Serpents.
Except this list now allows you to nearly reliably bring the units you need to the table every single time. It's the epitome of TAC.
I'm not a daemons expert when it comes to list building, but let me break down what I'd probably play as a starting point:
-Soulgrind of Chaos; Baleful Torrent, Mark of Slaanesh
-Soulgrind of Chaos; Baleful Torrent, Mark of Slaanesh
-Soulgrind of Chaos; Baleful Torrent, Mark of Slaanesh
I'm honestly debating whether or not to drop Fateweaver for Be'lakor in this list. Having guaranteed Invisibility on Dogstar is gross. Like stupid gross. I do enjoy Fateweavers control of the Warp Storm table, rerolls, and flexibility in power dispensing. He can also be where another FMC needs to be to apply pressure.
I intend to summon a Herald with the Grimoire if I feel it's necessary. Not sure if it will be or not, but hey, that's the risk.
Obviously, Skulltaker rides dirty with Khorne Dogs as ablative wounds delivery to ensure the dogs aren't eating Instant Death on approach. Running right behind them is 3 Soulgrinder of Chaos that are moving, on average, about ~15" a turn with fleet. Because they are only BS3, and I love my Dreadknights, I'd much rather have the torrent flamer as these guys are supposed to get into close combat ASAP and imply insane turn two pressure.
Then I press forward with some pink horrors to "throw" the new summons out. Standing back in the deployment zone and expecting your units to be succesful is a suckers bet. With the pressure of dogs (potentially invisible?) and 3 grinders, that should be an excellent amount of threat overload. I won't fear psycannon spam knights and would love for them to come closer so I can hit them with my sword, to boot.
Is it perfect? I dunno, I've not played daemons since 5E. But this list gives me 21+d6 warp charges, will be plenty to do my dirty deeds. I'd probably drop some horrors and dog or two to squeeze in Be'lakor as a replacement for Kairos should I felt it was necessary to have invisible bumper chasers.
Again, I expect daemon farm to be one of the best TAC armies in the game given it's keen ability for adaptation against any list. I already saw countless battle reports of the top table kinda guys adapting their deathstars to allow flexibility, now you have an entire list around the concept. I think it'll be gross when played right, but it will be entirely unforgiving played by the common guy trying to netlist.
Pretty much, and possession spam was just something I put forward. I've "played " it on Vassal and it's interesting and really good ,but it's not "gamebreaking" which is what people want and are looking for. It's not my style though.
Actually we don't even know yet on how tournaments are gonna be on the whole "combined" armies lists. I'm saying they'll probably be single FOC, Allies.
Your list is literally exactly the one I've been playing except I don't go with Slaanesh, I go with Tzeentch to get the 4+ w/ Cursed and a Reroll so I can also get another +2 with Grimoire if I need to and if lucky get the +1 and it doesn't have hounds it has Screamers.
Here's the big thing though Summon lists if you don't play fast are incredibly long and boring to play. I wrote a few things on how to speed it up in the Daemon faq thread which I still need to finish the last part. I'm waiting for the next big 40k tournament that's 7th to see how thinks shape up. It'll be interesting to see what occurs and whether people will be able to meet the requirements.
The thing is that really if you think about it and kind of view the Psychic Phase as your shooting phase, you realling only have one phase , sort of...
Also, who goes first doesn't always mean Alpha Strike, Bastion with Comm relays are really good. Every list has a counter.
-Soulgrind of Chaos; Baleful Torrent, Mark of Slaanesh
-Soulgrind of Chaos; Baleful Torrent, Mark of Slaanesh
-Soulgrind of Chaos; Baleful Torrent, Mark of Slaanesh
I like this list, looks very similar to what I'm going to try. I would try to move some points around (maybe drop a soulgrinder) to get either a unit of Screamers & give a disc to one/two of the heralds, and maybe drop Fateweaver for Be'Lakor.
With that build, you end up with Be'lakor giving Shrouding to the Screamers, Invis to the hounds, pop cursed earth/incursion/summons*2 from the screamer unit. Suddenly the enemy has 6-8 targets within striking range next turn: Be'lakor, screamers, skulltaker/hounds, 2 soulgrinders + 1-3 summoned units of Bloodcrushers/seekers/whatevers. The screamers have a 2+ re-rollable cover, be'lakor is gliding/jinking with a 2+ cover save, the hounds are invisible, everything else has a 4+ invulnerable and a 5+ or better cover...
The daemon factory of horrors on foot, staying in the back field doing nothing but summon more horrors, that is pretty lame. The daemon factory where everything rushes at you first turn can be one of the fastest armies in the game, reliably summoning dedicated combat units 6" from your lines.
Leth wrote: You want fateweaver for the warp storm re-rolls as well as the grim re-rolls.
Too valuable to risk those rolls going bad.
OTOH Fateweaver's purpose now is pretty much to re-roll 1 dice per turn/warp storm results and not much more. For 300pts and a HQ slot, that's a pretty steep price. Be'lakor on the other hand is very capable in combat, can survive well enough even when gliding (jink+stealth+shrouded), and gets guaranteed access to some great spells.
As soon as you start summoning, you are getting icons and instruments on the table which help out with warp storm results which might hit your units. Plus with battleforged you get to reroll your warlord trait for a better chance at getting the good warlord traits anyway.
Funny thing is that fatey is super useful in a d factory for rerolling the power selection of a summoned herald or a particularly nasty perils you just suffered (ie sucked into the warp result, etc.).
Fatey is also seriously survivable with a curse earth nearby.
I would admittedly be much happier with him if you could trade his powers for all telepathy, malefic, or even all biomancy. His 1 roll on each is kind of meh.
Depends on the rest of the list but I would probably run both. They both just bring so much to the table and there are plenty of other places you can cheap out in the list.
I've been trying out a mix of both, I've never really gotten a Warp Storm result that really screwed me over and the games I've played with the reroll I've gotten the Warp Storm result and the Warp Storm buff a couple of times.
