AvatarForm wrote:At first I was of the belief that you lacked basic economic understanding, but now I am to believe that you have a personal issue with Aussies living and working in a more fair IR environment?

is this correct or are you simply trolling the thread with obtuse responses?

No. My mother is from Australia.
Also reported for "obtuse responses". It is simple math to see that prices and wages might correlate with each other.

I actually concur with you ph34r, I have posted a similar hypothesis in other threads here.

Shame for the Aussies (didn't check Kiwi $), but it seems parity across the world is to be artificially enforced from now on.

It makes me lol that there are people trying to convince the Aussies that what just happened to them is fair and reasonable. Not a happy lol. A cynical lol. It's even more laughable when people try to convince them that somehow they are getting a better deal than the rest of the world. Then the lols go away when it becomes worryingly apparent how far some people will go to be apologists.

While appreciate logic is the oil to the calm waters of the internet I hardly see how analysing the respective economic factors is being an apologist.

Clearly you like going off half cocked, others do not.

It is simple math to see that prices and wages might correlate with each other

Sure they correlate.

Unfortunately that doesnt make it any more or less of an exploitation.

Correlating price to aveage income is a great thing to do if you dont have income disparity, if you have 1 person earn 99000 and 100 people earn 10 dollars, your average income is going to be 909 dollars.

Setting your price based on this average isnt going to work.

H.B.M.C. wrote:How much does the average house or apartment cost in the US?

The median purchase price for a home in the U.S. from this past March was $232,900 in the North East, $126,100 in the Midwest, $138,200 in the South, and $192,100 in the West. Which comes to $172,325 for a national average. I received that info from the National Association of Realtors.

Also, it is important to keep in mind that there is a ton of disparity with housing costs even within regions. For example, I live in MA and housing costs here are some of the highest in the nation. If I lived 50 miles north in VT things would be a lot more equitable.

notprop wrote:While appreciate logic is the oil to the calm waters of the internet I hardly see how analysing the respective economic factors is being an apologist.

Clearly you like going off half cocked, others do not.

Seems unlikely that almost every Antipodean who buys figures would be so very unhappy if they were actually getting the amazing deal some people in this thread are claiming they are getting. And there is a difference between analyzing the respective economic factors and trying to convince people who just got boned that they were actually getting a better deal all along, and that they should accept this new boning as only fair...especially when they clearly were not getting a fair deal.

adamantium|wang wrote:Cross-posting this, it seems to be more relevant to the discussion in this thread.

adamantium|wang wrote:Incomechat.

There was a bit of manufactured furore here recently when the Government decided to restrict the growth of welfare payments to people earning over $150,000/year. The Opposition took up the cry of "class warfare!" which was duly repeated via the usual shock jocks and news sources. It lasted for all of 3 days after people realised they don't make anywhere near that much. In fact, only 1.5% of taxpayers earn this amount or higher.

I bring this up because it has led to a nice piece of analysis of just how much people in this country actually earn.

We have a very obvious two-speed economy in Australia right now. Up the top end is the mining industry, who (while they do have a considerable rate of turnover these days) are busy digging up as much as they can and shovelling it into the insatiable furnace that is China. We are in the midst of a resources boom that has helped prop up the national economy and contributed hugely to growth. Also in the top end are tradesmen, who are working through a 10 year long housing bubble and a huge skills shortage, and the usual line up of CEOs.

Towards the bottom end is everyone else. The rest of the economy was slugged hard by the GFC and while Federal stimulus spending and lending guarantees staved off the worst, it's not all pretty. Retail in particular has had a hard time, even with stimulus handouts, and a spate of natural disasters has piled on even more bad news.

Because of this skewed economy using the average wage is a poor indicator of what people are actually earning. The top end of town artificially inflates the number as more and more people see their wages slump into lower, already accounted for brackets.

The blog that I linked shows the average weekly ordinary time earnings for full time adults to be just north of $66,000/year, but this mean figure is skewed by our two tier economy. Looking at tax statistics from 2010, he concludes that the median figure for full time workers is just under $55,000/year. This however excludes part time workers and the ever growing number of casual and underemployed workers. Once these people are included, the figure drops to just over $44,000/year. This means half of the Australian workforce earns under $44,000/year, which at current exchange rates is just under 29,000 pounds a year. A far cry from the $66,000 average.

Just something to think on.

While I in now way deny the truth of what is above and it certainly should be considered, it is a phenomenon that exists in all nations. The distribution of wealth in the world today is far removed from any sense of fairness, and on that note data from the Human Development Report shows a lower ratio of economic inequality between the richest and the poorest in Australia, as opposed to the U.K. and especially the U.S.A. Australia also scores much better than those two nations on the Gini Index, with the U.S.A. once again taking the unfortunate lead on. Basically, while I do agree with you, the economic situation of Australia is far better off than the U.K and U.S.A. Which should be no surprise, even to a casual observer, as there is a reason your money is actually valuable and this issue of internationally outsourcing for product even exists.

Seriphis wrote:

It is simple math to see that prices and wages might correlate with each other

Sure they correlate.

Unfortunately that doesnt make it any more or less of an exploitation.

Correlating price to aveage income is a great thing to do if you dont have income disparity, if you have 1 person earn 99000 and 100 people earn 10 dollars, your average income is going to be 909 dollars.

Setting your price based on this average isnt going to work.

But it is done that way.

When introducing a product to a new market, you know you sell it in the UK for £30, so 300% of the average earning say.

You then introduce the product at 300% of the local average wage to the new market as a starting point. This is an over simplistic way of looking at how it would be done but it will roughly follow this method. There is no way in hell that GW would spend money on product placement etc so the will just do like almost all businesses across the world - if it works here it must work there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ArbeitsSchu wrote:

notprop wrote:While appreciate logic is the oil to the calm waters of the internet I hardly see how analysing the respective economic factors is being an apologist.

Clearly you like going off half cocked, others do not.

Seems unlikely that almost every Antipodean who buys figures would be so very unhappy if they were actually getting the amazing deal some people in this thread are claiming they are getting. And there is a difference between analyzing the respective economic factors and trying to convince people who just got boned that they were actually getting a better deal all along, and that they should accept this new boning as only fair...especially when they clearly were not getting a fair deal.

No one is trying to convince anyone of anything.

I have just had a cursory look at some figures that indicates rough parity across the globe based upon what I would expect a companies approach to be. I find trying to inform myself before deciding on jumping on the band wagon a rather more productive use of my time.

Anyway I would suggest that allot of this is unimportant as I suspect most Antipodean GW customers do not buy from the UK anyway (though I'm sure allot of Aussie Dakkanauts do).

TBD wrote:So, how many Big Macs can one buy locally for the local price of a box of Space Marines in:

1 - Australia
2 - the US
3 - GB

The Big Mac Index is flawed and has been disproven as a means to weigh economies.

If you have heard of this economic "tool" than you can come to your own conclusions as to why without the need for it to be repeated here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ph34r wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:At first I was of the belief that you lacked basic economic understanding, but now I am to believe that you have a personal issue with Aussies living and working in a more fair IR environment?

is this correct or are you simply trolling the thread with obtuse responses?

No. My mother is from Australia.
Also reported for "obtuse responses". It is simple math to see that prices and wages might correlate with each other.

Oh noes, you reported me for responding to your trolling... *gasp*

By the way, if your mother being from Australia is deemed as qualification to comment with a valid opinion upon global economics, then it must be said that both my mother AND father are from Australia. This must mean that I am doubly qualified to respond and debunk your opinions.

On Topic: If anyone cares to notice, the GW apologists do not seem to be from the areas affected by this price fix strategy.

The Big Mac Index is flawed and has been disproven as a means to weigh economies.

Its flawed for the same reason as the assumption of parity accross the world.

When introducing a product to a new market, you know you sell it in the UK for £30, so 300% of the average earning say.

While i understand you're over simplifying, but if a company were to introduce a product for 300% of the average wage of a new market and there was any competition the product would have to be sold at a price around the competitor's or less to take the market, this kind of behaviour only exists in markets where monopolies or oligopolies exist.

The problem with your own example is if you work on that assumption that 300% above average wage will result in sales. Heres where it comes to the argument that everyone else is making.

GW wants to increase profits, they have recognised they are losing sales over time, to offset this loss in profits they've increased prices while decreasing production and employment costs. Rational consumers when they see increased prices will not purchase the product more, consumers on the edge of the ability to purchase to start off with will be forced not to purchase, and people looking to get into that market will be discouraged because of the high entrance price.

Say GW does the opposite and lowers prices, they've addmited a number of times that their production costs are always decreasing, with recessions, they'd be able to employ more staff for less relatively. By lowering prices, rational consumers will likely choose the product over other luxury goods, people on the edge will be able to purchase more of the product or at least less likely to cut it out of their budget, and people wanting to get into it can do so cause the cost of entrance is lower.

Not to mention if GW lowers their prices, they're less likely to have competitors cause there will be less demand for alternatives to their good. With GW increasing the prices, it gives competitors more room to undercut them...

As others have said, GW's move has given reason for consumers to seek alternatives... for some of their product range there is that alternative, but not for all of it or necessarily the same quality.

AvatarForm wrote:Oh noes, you reported me for responding to your trolling... *gasp*

You calling my posting is not only insulting, but is incorrect, and speaks to your ignorance for assuming that those that provide logical reasoning that contradicts with your world view can be dismissed as simply trying to rile you up.

It's sad, really.

ph34r wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:Oh noes, you reported me for responding to your trolling... *gasp*

You calling my posting is not only insulting, but is incorrect, and speaks to your ignorance for assuming that those that provide logical reasoning that contradicts with your world view can be dismissed as simply trying to rile you up.

It's sad, really.

Speaking of logic, you have yet to respond to my points.

Infact the only reasoning you have presented so far is that because Australians are generaly wealthier than Americans, they should pay more for GW products to make it "fair". I fail to see the logic behind this reasoning.

Seriphis wrote:

The Big Mac Index is flawed and has been disproven as a means to weigh economies.

GW wants to increase profits, they have recognised they are losing sales over time, to offset this loss in profits they've increased prices while decreasing production and employment costs. Rational consumers when they see increased prices will not purchase the product more, consumers on the edge of the ability to purchase to start off with will be forced not to purchase, and people looking to get into that market will be discouraged because of the high entrance price.

If we agree to a 50% price hike since 2005, then by their own numbers, they are at something like 20% down in sales since that year. This is not the same profit, thou any business man with 2 functioning neurons would be jumping up and down trying to push their product, then again this is GW we are talking about.

Solourus wrote:

ph34r wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:Oh noes, you reported me for responding to your trolling... *gasp*

You calling my posting is not only insulting, but is incorrect, and speaks to your ignorance for assuming that those that provide logical reasoning that contradicts with your world view can be dismissed as simply trying to rile you up.

It's sad, really.

Speaking of logic, you have yet to respond to my points.

Infact the only reasoning you have presented so far is that because Australians are generaly wealthier than Americans, they should pay more for GW products to make it "fair". I fail to see the logic behind this reasoning.

I would like to know too , i asked on page 20 but no one answered.

Aussies pay more for *everything* imported than is strictly fair. Clothes, books, cars, models. Why? The retailers are capitalising on customer ignorance and laziness.

People here are used to paying $XX for goods Y. Y is imported, but not many people know that. They've been paying $XX for years, and they feel its pretty reasonable. They have no real reason to search around for cheaper alternatives, because $XX is reasonable. Suddenly currency shifts. Does $XX suddenly become less reasonable? You're earning the same, and $XX is still the same relative proportion of your budget.
If you felt you were getting value, there is no need to shop around. Only if you know that Y is imported, AND that currency has shifted significantly, AND you felt it wasn't worth $XX in the first place, do you start feeling ripped off. Then, if you do look for alternatives, does the discount of Z% offset $W in shipping costs, AND is it worth waiting the 3 weeks it takes to get to you?

GW was expensive as a hobby to start with. Many people were already on the brink of not purchasing. Most players who have read more than one White Dwarf know it is an imported product. Furthermore, there is a company offering free (or heavily discounted) worldwide shipping. All of those things stack up against GW. If Maelstrom didn't offer free shipping, and we had to buy from GW UK, it probably wouldnt be worth it. If the comparative discount was only 20% rather than 60%, it wouldn't be worth it.

The only thing I have noticed decreasing significantly in price is electronics, beyond the normal trends of such things. These one-off purchases are typically made by wealthy-er, informed customers. Most of these cannot be bought from overseas (or at least it is significantly more difficult) due to high shipping costs, and warranties being invalid overseas.

Aussies may earn more AUD then Brits earn GBP. But we pay the same rough % of wage on GW products. Yes, we are lucky that exchange rates favour us for importing. But for those in the know, it is now blatantly obvious that GW has both acknowledged the currency shift and is attempting to profit from it. They blame the 'nasty internet free-riders' 'taking advantage' of shipping very low profit items to customers overseas (I'm surprised wayland and maelstrom make a profit out of AUS) but in the end, Wayland is doing nothing wrong: its GW who is not adjusting to the currency shift.

I just love the fact that GW can colour Maelstrom with the 'internet freeloaders' brush when they are far, far more than an online shopping kart.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I just love the fact that GW can colour Maelstrom with the 'internet freeloaders' brush when they are far, far more than an online shopping kart.

But at the core of the problem is this: they're "far, far more than an online shopping cart"...for the United Kingdom. They do nothing that 'supports the gaming community' outside of the region they are based in.

It's the same thing with The Warstore, Wayland, or any other storefront which also has an online retail branch. They're funneling a ton of money into the community that they're based in--but most of that money is coming from outside of it. There's nothing wrong with that, but it does cause a bit of cries of "Unfair! Unfair! Unfair!" from the other local retailers.

I will agree with you though, "internet freeloaders" was completely uncalled for and it was very clearly a kneejerk response coming from Wells.

Kanluwen wrote:... but most of that money is coming from outside of it.

Really? Most of it? You know that for a fact?

Kanluwen wrote:But at the core of the problem is this: they're "far, far more than an online shopping cart"...for the United Kingdom. They do nothing that 'supports the gaming community' outside of the region they are based in.

Depends what you mean by 'supporting'. If more people can afford the products thanks to the service Maelstrom/Wayland provide, then I consider that to be 'supporting'. Maelstrom supports the community plenty with it's massive store and 140-ish tables. I think they're doing their bit quite well. Well's claim is that the 'internet freeloaders' are harming their R&D efforts. I can't see how Maelstrom is doing this at all.

Kanluwen wrote:It's the same thing with The Warstore, Wayland, or any other storefront which also has an online retail branch. They're funneling a ton of money into the community that they're based in--but most of that money is coming from outside of it. There's nothing wrong with that, but it does cause a bit of cries of "Unfair! Unfair! Unfair!" from the other local retailers.

And the local retailers wouldn't have need to call unfair if our prices were the same as the UK's. Have a Tactical Squad cost the same across the world, and this issue vanishes.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Have a Tactical Squad cost the same across the world, and this issue vanishes.

/Thread

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:... but most of that money is coming from outside of it.

Really? Most of it? You know that for a fact?

Nope, just like you don't know that it's not the case. That's why I thought I made it pretty clear that it's a hypothetical.

Kanluwen wrote:But at the core of the problem is this: they're "far, far more than an online shopping cart"...for the United Kingdom. They do nothing that 'supports the gaming community' outside of the region they are based in.

Depends what you mean by 'supporting'.

By "supporting" I mean the exact same qualifiers that GW does when it comes to shops.
A space for your customer base to play. Maelstrom cannot qualify for that, no international based retailer that isn't a chain can meet that criteria.

It's maddeningly broad and vague and it suits GW's purposes perfectly for this case.

If more people can afford the products thanks to the service Maelstrom/Wayland provide, then I consider that to be 'supporting'. Maelstrom supports the community plenty with it's massive store and 140-ish tables. I think they're doing their bit quite well.

Again: they support their community. If Maelstrom opened up shop down under, in the US, Europe, and Canada I would say that they're supporting their community there too.

Well's claim is that the 'internet freeloaders' are harming their R&D efforts. I can't see how Maelstrom is doing this at all.

I didn't see anything about R&D. If that was his claim(which I didn't see), then research and development clearly isn't being impacted by Maelstrom.

Unless of course that research is to try to get a better understanding of the Oceanic customer base, in which case then yeah. Maelstrom is 'interfering' with that.

Kanluwen wrote:It's the same thing with The Warstore, Wayland, or any other storefront which also has an online retail branch. They're funneling a ton of money into the community that they're based in--but most of that money is coming from outside of it. There's nothing wrong with that, but it does cause a bit of cries of "Unfair! Unfair! Unfair!" from the other local retailers.

And the local retailers wouldn't have need to call unfair if our prices were the same as the UK's. Have a Tactical Squad cost the same across the world, and this issue vanishes.

And the local retailers wouldn't have need to call unfair if your prices were the same as the UK's?

You mean like where someone has said that the "same percentage of your wages goes into buying a GW kit as a UK customer's wage percentage goes to a GW kit"?

Overall: prices need to be refigured.
Period. End of story. It needs to be done, worldwide. Things are getting absurd.

And for that matter, FW needs to have the same done.

The 'average wage' bs is just that - bs. But I won't go into that, I'll leave that to others.

And are you attempting to say, Kan, that Aussies should pay more for FW items?

No, I'm saying everyone should pay less for them.

Phew. Had me really worried for a moment there. I might have asked Lego to change your custom user title to 'White Knight' had you been advocating that...

Are you implying GW's pricing isnt justified? Then what have you been defending all these years kan?

H.B.M.C. wrote:Phew. Had me really worried for a moment there. I might have asked Lego to change your custom user title to 'White Knight' had you been advocating that...

Pft. Just because I don't feel the need to constantly post my displeasure with the company doesn't mean I don't have issues with them.

YES IT DOES IF YOU DON'T WHINE ABOUT GW YOU MUST LOVE THEM AND BE KILLED WITH FIRE

It normally takes a catastrophe for Kanluwen and HBMC to agree on anything. Kinda says something about the current state of GW.

I thought we avoided the apocalypse this weekend?

Yes now all we need is for Kan H. and Aggy to all agree on the same subject then someone should check the weather report in hell.

Trasvi wrote:YES IT DOES IF YOU DON'T WHINE ABOUT GW YOU MUST LOVE THEM AND BE KILLED WITH FIRE

Please don't make spam posts, shout and insult other users. Further occurrences will lead to moderator action.

Trasvi wrote:YES IT DOES IF YOU DON'T WHINE ABOUT GW YOU MUST LOVE THEM AND BE KILLED WITH FIRE

what....?

Please don't make spam posts.

Kanluwen wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:I just love the fact that GW can colour Maelstrom with the 'internet freeloaders' brush when they are far, far more than an online shopping kart.

But at the core of the problem is this: they're "far, far more than an online shopping cart"...for the United Kingdom. They do nothing that 'supports the gaming community' outside of the region they are based in.

It's the same thing with The Warstore, Wayland, or any other storefront which also has an online retail branch. They're funneling a ton of money into the community that they're based in--but most of that money is coming from outside of it. There's nothing wrong with that, but it does cause a bit of cries of "Unfair! Unfair! Unfair!" from the other local retailers.

I will agree with you though, "internet freeloaders" was completely uncalled for and it was very clearly a kneejerk response coming from Wells.

They have supported nothing
We have shops closing down, moving them to one man stores, no Games Day until this year in fact, hell they even make their own employees pay to go, I don't even think they support tournaments
the hobby in Australia as far as I can understand it supported itself
GW did nothing other than have stores which sold overpriced goods

What I've never understood is that why do you pay about 75% more? Cost to ship it there? Worse off economy? Surely there has to be a reason, even an inane absurd one but still one none the less!

Ok, this is nuts.

It saddens me to see that the level of thought and understanding on economic matters in this thread is not even past a 1st year university standard.

Few things about general economic pricing principles and actuarial pricing techniques (I am an Actuary by trade... so I feel a little more comfortable talking about the basics in this space).

First Issue:
"Wages are higher in Australia therefore they should pay more"

Ok, where should I start with this. On even the most basic on levels this doesn't pass the no arbitrage (the law of one price) assumption that underpins the arguments that people are using, this in actuality is a market distortion, it in definition is putting the Aust market out of equilibrium with other markets. This is not a validation of GW's actions, merely a statement of the analysis that has preceeded my post in general.

Beyond that, looking at average wage is a horribly biased way to look at available discretionary spending. It forgets such massive issues as demographics (who is buying this product, cost of living - being one of the highest and 3 of the highest cities in the world, median and modal income and most importantly the availability of substitutes).

To use these measures is to, IMO, totally miss the point of the situation. This would in fact be 100% illegal inside the EU, or in different states in the USA or even in Australia itself. It's deviousness is the implementation.

2nd Issue:
"Online stores do nothing for the game outside their own country"

Ok, this to me is false. The largest group of enthusiasts are gamers themselves. You DO NOT need a LGS to help the game (not saying that this isn't important or nice, just not reality). A very large proportion of gamers play games with their friends, which GASP, doesn't happen generally at gaming stores.

By artificially increasing the price of an area, you are in essence reducing the number of people that are willing to buy the product itself. This is basic economics (and as far as I can tell no one is denying that).

But to say that 'gamers' that buy from the online stores (which is what is required if you are saying that online stores do nothing to promote the hobby) is quite obviously false. All of the gamers that do not participate or are in other words priced out of the hobby now and in the future are denied the opportunity of aiding the hobby.

This is a really simplified understanding of just some of the opportunity cost of loosing this access.

3rd Issue:
"It will work, IE the price distortion will remain"

Ok, this is a little harder to lead through. But in essence, all efficient market theorems have a basic level of no arbitrage in them (the law of one price) with distortions and embargoes such as this causing modifications to the theory. The problem with this is the assumption that people will not have access to these prices in Australia and other regions outside the Eurozone in the first place. GW has ZERO ability to control sale on eBay. Also, there is now a huge incentive for people to come and play in this space and make a larger profit due to the price distortions that in the will make this even harder for the embargo itself to exist.

4th Issue:
Australian law will allow this.

This is in essence a monopolistic device that is being used to restrict access and control prices of world wide distribution channels in Australia. On a basic level the ACCC (Australian Price watchdog for those overseas) does not take too kindly to this.

Itunes got in huge trouble over this lately (and are being monitored) but what made it harder to enforce was the online nature of the 'merchandise'. I doubt that GW will have the same love from them.

5th Issue:
"Wages are higher in Australia than overseas"

This actually should have very little impact on the price of a product in the market unless there were restrictions like market based pricing mechanisms. There should be some impact in a perfect world (like how there should be no such thing as free shipping as postage does cost both time and money, but it does exist).

In reality, these costs are what drive business decisions to how many stores they place and the profitability of those stores. This also explains why the average number of staff at GS in Australia has dropped (but I think this is the same worldwide, so most likely is uncorrelated).

6th Issue:
"The price differences are due to distortions in the currency market"

Well... WOW! Sorry guys, if anyone thinks that these exchange rates are temporary and GW is doing the right thing long term and pricing Australian merchandise at historical standards is the correct idea, never try and work in the real world. Sure, short term, I understand their thoughts, prices cannot change every couple months.

But the irony is that they change prices every other month, so exchange rates (and swap agreements, derivatives and linked bonds) are not the thing that is stopping GW changing it's prices. Time and time again they show that they are advese to any regular marketing theory (tell me another major retail company in the world that never does sales yet knows it's own product is sold cheaper down the road).



7th Issue:
"Why Not?"

Forgeworld is a really good example of this on a very similar product. And the argument has been made before. If this logic makes sense here, then the logic would transfer over in the same fashion. This would imply that the country your computer is in at the time determines the mark up they are willing to slug you with... total nonsense.

Final Word:
GW continually baffle me with their backward thinking and the longterm strategies to maximise the short term to the total detriment of the long term. This is another one of those things. To say that prices 'should' be different and still be 'efficient' is just a fallacy. That is the definition of a market that is out of equilibrium. Just astounds me that this actually needs to be said, on this forum and to GW itself.

Kurgash, two reasons:

First, GW is greedy. I am not trying to pick on GW nor am I going to apologize for them. I could drone on for paragraphs of why this is and why its ok or not, but at the end of the day they are a company who wants to do a 40% return on investment and the only way to do that is get greedy and play hardball, they are NOT the gw of the mid 80's and 90's.

Secondly:
Take a look at that chart. GBP VS AUD

Two and a half years ago GW's investment in the operations of Australian stores, warehousing staff etc was roughly 2.5 Australian Dollars per 1.0 British Pounds. Since then the British economy has tanked like everyone else . Though the AUD has proven somewhat stable. So GW's "investment" or raw costs has increased roughly 35-40%? This is because the price is now 1.50 Aussie Dollars per 1.0 British Pound. The only way to keep the same level of profit was to close stores, move them to one man stores and other drastic measures.

I am speculating here because i do not know, but one other consideration may be that they do not have a Central Office in Australia like they do in the USA (now Memphis). This would mean that they cannot act independently to use AUD sales for some of the Australian costs he talks about in his facebook post. Everything has to be converted and they have been losing money hand over fist. Again this is speculation, i don't see any major gaps in GW's financial data available to the public to prove this.

What they are essentially trying to do is block maelstrom so they can recoup the cost, but as everyone has said they essentially signed their own death certificate. Do i think GW will pull out of Australia? no. Do i think in 3 years time GW will be re-structuring? yes and i don't think it will be pretty.

Just go to the GW investor site and pull up all the data going back to 2006, sales are down, not by alot but by enough that we all go WTF when price increase time comes around. This is how GW is still available to maintain a strong position with their investors. They push out new prices, some people quit, some people buy less models. For the people that buy less models though GW is still getting the same amount of money off of you they were getting before. Your just taking longer to put together a new army.

This is in essence a monopolistic device that is being used to restrict access and control prices of world wide distribution channels in Australia. On a basic level the ACCC (Australian Price watchdog for those overseas) does not take too kindly to this.

Sorry the ACCC is completely powerless to do anything about it, they dont have international juristiction, they can only attempt to enforce change within the bounds of australia.

If GW suddenly told australian stockists they can no longer sell their products, or forced them to raise prices to match their retail price, then sure... ACCC eat your heart out.

What it all boils down to is GW are saying pay our prices or don't have our product and unfortunatly there are two many people out there who will still buy at the new prices which means their marketing strategy has worked. This has happened repeatedley over the last few years... Sad, but true.

Mick

Warboss Gubbinz wrote:
Stuff

Huh? I think you have that backwards. The currency shift favours GW at all times. A weak dollar/pound is great for exporters.

Lets say GW used to sell a product for 25 AUD 3 years ago when the exchange rate was 2.5:1. That was the equivalent to selling it for 10 GBP. Now, they sell the same product for 25 AUD. They now make 16.67 GBP off that sale. Well actually, its more like 30 AUD and 20 GBP now with price hikes. Their ongoing costs (wages, rent) increased by the same ratio; so all other things being equal, the GW business in AUS should not have been effected.

I am aware that Australia 'got lucky' with the currency shifts. I am aware that GW is just 'bringing us back in line' so we don't 'take advantage'. I believe that our prices as % of wage are in line with other countries. I just feel personally insulted that GW, in one sentence acknowledged the currency shift, accused internet stores of free-riding and then denied us access to said stores. They accuse the internet retailers, when the real problem is their prices.

Like it or not, very few consumer products sold from B+M stores internationally continuously mirror the exact exchange rates. This applies for any industry. GW is not acting as an evil empire (in this particular case).The few products where this does apply have very tight competition.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
My concern is for Maelstrom and Wayland. Waylands 'acknowledgement' is sufficiently uninformative to make be believe they see a way around it. It doesn't seem fair for GW to suddenly turn to retailers and say 'Hey! you can sell half that amount, or none at all' on a product that must be a significant portion of their income.

I'm not liking this, how the manufacturers try to gouge the Australians. It's now just GW, it's Ralph Lauren, it's major clothing brands, it's electronic retailers,

It says something if it is significantly cheaper (50% or more) to buy and ship something from overseas than to buy locally... it's not the freight cost.

Australians in particular are getting gouged, pure and simple. We are seen as a closed, easy to exploit market that is susceptible to anti-competitive behaviour.


Time to start using freight forwarders but before that, time to get in on the sales. I can buy my kit at close to 50% off, and not having to pay shipping... I guess I'll have to buy enough to allow me to paint for a while without having to refresh and pay retail here.

Ridiculous.

/vent.

Kanluwen wrote:By "supporting" I mean the exact same qualifiers that GW does when it comes to shops.
A space for your customer base to play. Maelstrom cannot qualify for that, no international based retailer that isn't a chain can meet that criteria.

GW doesn't qualify for that, either. Most GW stores (at least the ones I've walked into) have at best a handful of 4x4 tables that are primarily for running demo games.


The simple fact is that yes, stores do help build the hobby by introducing the occasional person who wanders in off the street looking for Yu Gi Oh cards or video games to the wonderful world of gaming.

But online stores also build the community. Anything that results in more people owning more miniatures is building the gaming community.

Because, ultimately, the 'gaming community' isn't just those wargamers who like to play in stores.

Here's how GW supported independent retailers in my town. We had two. They had a reasonable amount of stock. One had a couple of tables to play on. Eventually, GW must have realised that there is enough sales in the area to support a GW store. They opened up in competition, and now those independent stores have dust on the little remaining stock. Really, it's GW that are the leaches getting the free ride. They let the independents build up the hobby in an area and then they swoop in and steal the business. That's one of the reasons I supported Maelstrom and Wayland over my local GW. Yes, the prices were a bonus to rub a little more salt in.

In any case, I was introduced to the game by my stepson. We used to play at a little community hall with a group of regulars, long before there was even a stockist here. The GW USA website was handy because it was the only one that had a decent online catalogue that we could use before calling the mail order trolls in Sydney. GW did virtually nothing to start or grow their hobby here.


Edit: I should add, I'm more angered by the Wells reply than I am about the announcement itself.

Edit again: Also, Black Tree Design has a 30% off + free shipping anywhere for premium members (code PREMIUM) at the moment. Just bought $50 of Dr Who minis. This money would have gone to GW if this policy hadn't been introduced.

insaniak wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:By "supporting" I mean the exact same qualifiers that GW does when it comes to shops.
A space for your customer base to play. Maelstrom cannot qualify for that, no international based retailer that isn't a chain can meet that criteria.

GW doesn't qualify for that, either. Most GW stores (at least the ones I've walked into) have at best a handful of 4x4 tables that are primarily for running demo games.


The simple fact is that yes, stores do help build the hobby by introducing the occasional person who wanders in off the street looking for Yu Gi Oh cards or video games to the wonderful world of gaming.

But online stores also build the community. Anything that results in more people owning more miniatures is building the gaming community.

Because, ultimately, the 'gaming community' isn't just those wargamers who like to play in stores.

@Insaniak: Exactly! Anything that will allow me to buy more miniatures will build my involvement in the community.

One can play with the army that one has, but I won't be satisfied with that! The whole point of this hobby is to allow so many avenues to expand... Of course it's your choice as to whether to quit now or just suck it up, but I know that many of us will only be slowed and not stopped...

LIve on Warhammer!!

GW throttle the hobby, not support it. Independent retailers broaden the horizons of what is available and are beneficial to the actual hobby. Selling more things to more people is the very definition of broadening the hobby.

Going by the reactions of those still supporting GW's latest decisions I hope the company does carry on as it will keep them well away from me...

Mick

Aspiring Champion wrote:Here's how GW supported independent retailers in my town. We had two. They had a reasonable amount of stock. One had a couple of tables to play on. Eventually, GW must have realised that there is enough sales in the area to support a GW store. They opened up in competition, and now those independent stores have dust on the little remaining stock. Really, it's GW that are the leaches getting the free ride. They let the independents build up the hobby in an area and then they swoop in and steal the business. That's one of the reasons I supported Maelstrom and Wayland over my local GW. Yes, the prices were a bonus to rub a little more salt in.

In any case, I was introduced to the game by my stepson. We used to play at a little community hall with a group of regulars, long before there was even a stockist here. The GW USA website was handy because it was the only one that had a decent online catalogue that we could use before calling the mail order trolls in Sydney. GW did virtually nothing to start or grow their hobby here.


Edit: I should add, I'm more angered by the Wells reply than I am about the announcement itself.

Edit again: Also, Black Tree Design has a 30% off + free shipping anywhere for premium members (code PREMIUM) at the moment. Just bought $50 of Dr Who minis. This money would have gone to GW if this policy hadn't been introduced.

Photocopy your receipt and send it to GW with a covering letter to tell them why you are spending the money on Doctor Who.

Point out that obviously you are going to promote Doctor Who games with your friends rather than Warhammer.

Kilkrazy wrote:


Photocopy your receipt and send it to GW with a covering letter to tell them why you are spending the money on Doctor Who.

Point out that obviously you are going to promote Doctor Who games with your friends rather than Warhammer.

Hmmm do you see this as the form of communication most likely to penetrate?

That's something I could bother to do. In May I've placed 4 orders with UK suppliers and spent zero on GW product.

If they are capable of understanding anything perhaps this is it.

Certainly all those Mantic undead and AoW Dwarves and a bunch of characters are clear analogues so they should get the point.

Naw, that means they'll just sue Mantic for IP infringment

Kalidane wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:


Photocopy your receipt and send it to GW with a covering letter to tell them why you are spending the money on Doctor Who.

Point out that obviously you are going to promote Doctor Who games with your friends rather than Warhammer.

Hmmm do you see this as the form of communication most likely to penetrate?

That's something I could bother to do. In May I've placed 4 orders with UK suppliers and spent zero on GW product.

If they are capable of understanding anything perhaps this is it.

Certainly all those Mantic undead and AoW Dwarves and a bunch of characters are clear analogues so they should get the point.

I agree, I could do this easily.

The more I look into it and try to see the big picture, I think the reason this happened is this:

Games Workshop are trying to protect the margin and R&D investment on the finecast range.

That is the primary objective. The other is to close a loophole in the process and kill two birds with one stone. Pretty smart marketing I would say.

severedblue wrote:The more I look into it and try to see the big picture, I think the reason this happened is this:

Games Workshop are trying to protect the margin and R&D investment on the finecast range.

That is the primary objective. The other is to close a loophole in the process and kill two birds with one stone. Pretty smart marketing I would say.

I dont understand :'D

edited

If it is so expensive to do business in Australia ie. have shops, then its simple: close em all.

Games clubs and hobby stores have always been far better places to hang out and play.

In fact I think the hobby would be better off as local hobby shops would get more business, host tournaments etc.

GW don't support anything except their own shops, which are proxy child minding centers while the parents shop.

I suspect that the real reason behind all these price increases and ban on 3rd party internet sales is within the GW's CEO contract.

The more he gets sales up the better his stock options are as well as his golden handshake at the end.

Many a business has fallen to this method, time will tell.

LunaHound wrote:

severedblue wrote:The more I look into it and try to see the big picture, I think the reason this happened is this:

Games Workshop are trying to protect the margin and R&D investment on the finecast range.

That is the primary objective. The other is to close a loophole in the process and kill two birds with one stone. Pretty smart marketing I would say.

I dont understand :'D

Think about it. GW sink millions into the equipment, processes and expertise required to produce finecast miniatures. How will they recoup their costs?

By raising their prices. By closing loopholes to their market hegemony, such as shutting out discounting internet retailers.



They see the contrast of raising their prices against the good news of the finecast miniatures. They are betting that they won't lose too much customer base by playing good cop, bad cop and doing both the good and bad at the same time,

, praying to high heaven that the good will cancel out the bad
from a marketing perspective.

It's a common sales trick to present your most expensive item first, then your less expensive items last, to take advantage of the way the human mind views contrast.

It's cynical yes but GW isn't in the business of providing us a hobby, they are in the business of making money.
Time will tell whether they make themselves the ferrari of 28mm miniatures... and price themselves out of the market in the process....

Thing is, within a single county GW make the same or event MORE profit selling to internet retailers than they do selling the product themselves.
GW makes an item for $5, and sells to indie M for $15. M then sells to customers for $20, making $5 profit, minus cost of sale. GW makes $10 (or very near, as cost of sale to trade accounts is very low), no matter what the indie sells it for.
If GW makes and item for $5 and sells it themselves for $25, they make $20, minus cost of sale. Checking their investors reports, operating expenses are a little over 50% of sales per region, meaning they make very near $10!


It turns out that cost of operations in all regions (except Japan) is around 50% of revenue- continental Europe is highest at 54%, and Northern Europe is 48%.
This does mean that, without a corresponding increase in sales, the GW Australia business would be significantly crippled if prices were lowered to match current exchange rates, as their costs are not effected by exchange rate. But it does mean that they can provide to Australia significantly cheaper than they do now if they were willing to go to mail-order or independent only.

severedblue wrote:Think about it. GW sink millions into the equipment, processes and expertise required to produce finecast miniatures. How will they recoup their costs?
By raising their prices. By closing loopholes to their market hegemony, such as shutting out discounting internet retailers.

Only when other companies switch from metal to resin, they lower the prices because production got cheaper.
And last half year featured 6.7 million pound profit, of which 7.7 million pound were given as dividends. Profits are not for reinvestments.

Interesting reading… and make note of the statements made…

“We make things. We are a manufacturer. Not a retailer. We do have outlets in retail locations. We call these Games Workshop Hobby centres because they show customers how to engage with our hobby of collecting, painting and playing with our miniatures and games. They are the front end of our manufacturing business. If our Hobby centres do a great job, we will recruit lots of customers into our hobby and they will enjoy spending their money on the products we make.”

“The games are a key part of both our hobby and our business model. Our games are played between people present in a room (a Hobby centre, a club, a school), not with a screen. Our games are truly social and build a real sense of community and comradeship. This again makes good business sense. The more fun and enjoyable we make our games, the more customers we attract and retain, and the more miniatures our customers want to buy. This in turn allows us to reinvest in making more and more exciting miniatures and games, which creates a virtuous circle for all.”

GAMES WORKSHOP GROUP PLC Annual report 2010
CEO’s COMMENTARY Mark Wells CEO 26 July 2010

“As you know, we introduce people to the Games Workshop hobby of collecting, painting and gaming with Citadel miniatures through our Hobby Centres and local independent trade accounts. Games Workshop Hobby Centres run introductory games and painting sessions, beginner lessons, hobby activities and events. We provide all these services free of charge. We only recover this investment if customers then buy products from us.”

“In addition we invest millions of pounds every year in our design studio and factory to ensure that each month we release more new products. This makes the Games Workshop Hobby more exciting for existing customers, helping them stay in the hobby longer. We can only afford to do this because of the volume of customers we have recruited and developed through our local Hobby Centres and trade accounts.”

Generic Export Restriction Statement
Mark Wells Chief Executive 18 May 2011

Question… are there two people called Mark Wells at GW, coz to me, they are saying the exact opposite to each other

Mik

Just to add fuel to the GW hate, I saw this posted at Warseer in a thread about the possible decline of GW:

Speaking to a GW manager yesterday
- according to him they were told that 'southern hemisphere embargo' is just the start of a concerted attack on independents. Next they will be trying to enforce independents selling GW at full rrp

- SGs are staying as metals

- most staff are going on training specifically to defend finecast+price rises+etc
Defence will be
- Australian cost of living is much higher
- independents undercutting them means this store will have to close
- PP etc will soon increase prices
- resin detail is amaaazing
- reduced resin-metal price is offset by retooling, repackaging

Add vast amounts of salt if you like since this is as best 4th hand info. But if true this could have disturbing consequences.

Normally I would discount this as just pure anti GW ranting. But given GW's past history of controlling how their product is sold even going so far as to be illegal (online retailers were not required to remove their pictures and discounts from their site in the U.S. but a year latter the supreme court ruled in favor of this in regards to Disney products, thus making GW's crap legal) I would not be the least bit surprised if this could actually be a possibility.

severedblue wrote:We are seen as a closed, easy to exploit market that is susceptible to anti-competitive behaviour.

Judging purely based on what I've heard about the 40k tournament scene in Australia I'd say it's not far off the mark.

Hellfury wrote:Just to add fuel to the GW hate, I saw this posted at Warseer in a thread about the possible decline of GW:

...yeah...why does GW hate everyone so much? Is it a British thing?

Hellfury wrote:Just to add fuel to the GW hate, I saw this posted at Warseer in a thread about the possible decline of GW:

Speaking to a GW manager yesterday
- according to him they were told that 'southern hemisphere embargo' is just the start of a concerted attack on independents. Next they will be trying to enforce independents selling GW at full rrp

- SGs are staying as metals

- most staff are going on training specifically to defend finecast+price rises+etc
Defence will be
- Australian cost of living is much higher
- independents undercutting them means this store will have to close
- PP etc will soon increase prices
- resin detail is amaaazing
- reduced resin-metal price is offset by retooling, repackaging

Add vast amounts of salt if you like since this is as best 4th hand info. But if true this could have disturbing consequences.

Normally I would discount this as just pure anti GW ranting. But given GW's past history of controlling how their product is sold even going so far as to be illegal (online retailers were not required to remove their pictures and discounts from their site in the U.S. but a year latter the supreme court ruled in favor of this in regards to Disney products, thus making GW's crap legal) I would not be the least bit surprised if this could actually be a possibility.

They can train all they want. Those who were raised to think for themselves dont believe most of what a Red Shirt says anyway.

Sidstyler wrote:...yeah...why does GW hate everyone so much? Is it a British thing?

We don't like countries with better weather than us... ie all of them.

It would be illegal for GW to restrict sales to other markets within the EU and from an EU country.

Good job they arent doing that. The EU DOES allow TM and C holders to restrict the import and export of goods, by companies, to/from the EEA.

Which is what theyre doing. No cries of "its illegal!" will wash, as this is tried and tested case law.

Additionally: there has always been price disparity in locations, based on what the market will bear in each location. Do you really think MS charge the same for Office in the US as they do in India?

All theyre doing is making the marginal cost (i.e not the cost relative to eachother) equivalent around the world, by enforcing the regionalisation.

Yes, this means you are paying more AUD than you were; however you should be (and not going into the mean vs median, miners distorting figures argument right now) now paying the same cost relative to disposable income as anyone else.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yes, this means you are paying more AUD than you were; however you should be (and not going into the mean vs median, miners distorting figures argument right now) now paying the same cost relative to disposable income as anyone else.

From each according to their ability, to each according to their need, eh, comrade?

First I acknowledge that this is 4th hand information.

Maybe Australian law cannot change a trade embargo in Europe, but if there is an attack on independents of this kind and it can be proven, "price fixing" is a serious crime in Australia and the authorities will investigate. GW cannot dictate what price the independent retailers sell at especially since they are also in the retail space. My FLGS sells his stock at 10% flat below GW retail prices, that's one reason I support him.

Speaking to a GW manager yesterday
- according to him they were told that 'southern hemisphere embargo' is just the start of a concerted attack on independents. Next they will be trying to enforce independents selling GW at full rrp
- independents undercutting them means this store will have to close

GW can force FLGS to increase the price. They just sell the models to the LGS at a higher price. GW still makes up such a large percentage of sales that they will keep stocking them.

Will they though? There comes a point where the gap between profit and just breaking even becomes so close that there is no point in stocking GW products at all.

4M2A wrote:GW can force FLGS to increase the price. They just sell the models to the LGS at a higher price. GW still makes up such a large percentage of sales that they will keep stocking them.

That's assuming that your local FLGS makes most of its profit via GW stuff.

Out of the 3 FLGS's that I can drive to within a decent amount of time (I know, I'm so damn lucky!), none of them rely on Games Workshop to bring in the bread.

Cyborg 1 sells mostly comics and CCG's, and has actually be expanding. Within the past half-year, they've started carrying Warmachine, Malifaux, and Flames of War.

Brave New Worlds sells mostly comics, Geek paraphernalia, and RPGs. They run weekly Kill-team games, but you don't need to buy much to have a fully functional kill team.

7th Dimension Games sells board games, CCGs, Warmachine, Flames of War, and Dystopian Wars. The owner has just bought into GW, and only 40k, since he doesn't get much interest in it.

And how could I forget my college FLGS?! Redcap's Corner does have a prominent GW presence, but they're now buying Warmachine from their stockist. And again, most of their income comes from RPGS, board games, and CCGs.

From what I hear most FLGS owners saying, in RL and on the web is that GW games make a very large portion of their profit. There is a lot of room for GW to increase the cost while still keeping it viable for LGS to stock them.

They don't need to increase the cost close to GW store costs. Even a small increase will enocourage people to buy from GW.

4M2A wrote:From what I hear most FLGS owners saying, in RL and on the web is that GW games make a very large portion of their profit. There is a lot of room for GW to increase the cost while still keeping it viable for LGS to stock them.

They don't need to increase the cost close to GW store costs. Even a small increase will enocourage people to buy from GW.

Well, that's another thing. The store I go to all sell at MSRP prices, the same prices I would pay if I ever visited the local GW store.

What separates the other stores is that they actually have these event's called 'sales'. When my FLGS offers 20%-30% off, then I'll happy purchase some GW models from them.

Not that that's happening now. I'm going to see if they've got any good Pathfinder items.

infinite_array wrote:

4M2A wrote:GW can force FLGS to increase the price. They just sell the models to the LGS at a higher price. GW still makes up such a large percentage of sales that they will keep stocking them.

That's assuming that your local FLGS makes most of its profit via GW stuff.

Out of the 3 FLGS's that I can drive to within a decent amount of time (I know, I'm so damn lucky!), none of them rely on Games Workshop to bring in the bread.

Cyborg 1 sells mostly comics and CCG's, and has actually be expanding. Within the past half-year, they've started carrying Warmachine, Malifaux, and Flames of War.

Whoa, whoa, another Cyborg 1 gamer? Were you there this Sunday for the tournament?

severedblue wrote:First I acknowledge that this is 4th hand information.

Maybe Australian law cannot change a trade embargo in Europe, but if there is an attack on independents of this kind and it can be proven, "price fixing" is a serious crime in Australia and the authorities will investigate. GW cannot dictate what price the independent retailers sell at especially since they are also in the retail space. My FLGS sells his stock at 10% flat below GW retail prices, that's one reason I support him.

Speaking to a GW manager yesterday
- according to him they were told that 'southern hemisphere embargo' is just the start of a concerted attack on independents. Next they will be trying to enforce independents selling GW at full rrp
- independents undercutting them means this store will have to close

The thing is will the Australian trading authority back GWs stance, since it will support the sale of goods in country or support the consumer since they are restricted from buying outside of their own borders.

Anecdotally I understand that they can not do the latter since it is a Uk based issue and there already appears to be the same thing going on in other sectors (Electrical goods?).

DiscoVader wrote:

infinite_array wrote:

4M2A wrote:GW can force FLGS to increase the price. They just sell the models to the LGS at a higher price. GW still makes up such a large percentage of sales that they will keep stocking them.

That's assuming that your local FLGS makes most of its profit via GW stuff.

Out of the 3 FLGS's that I can drive to within a decent amount of time (I know, I'm so damn lucky!), none of them rely on Games Workshop to bring in the bread.

Cyborg 1 sells mostly comics and CCG's, and has actually be expanding. Within the past half-year, they've started carrying Warmachine, Malifaux, and Flames of War.

Whoa, whoa, another Cyborg 1 gamer? Were you there this Sunday for the tournament?

Egads, small world... I was there (with my Dark Eldar), you?

But that's a good point about how much pull GW has on the independents: only as much as the customers let it have. My (our?) FLGS (shameless plug, Cyborg One has a sale on Monday, 30% off the whole store; give em a call beforehand if you're looking for something in particular) hasn't branched out into other games to spite GW, but because the patrons ask for it.

That's what is most interesting to me: if this negative energy can be translated into something positive: bringing an awareness and enthusiasm for other, competing games. And that's not just hating on GW, in the long run healthy competition is vital for an industry; just look at how the Detroit motor industry became complacent and then collapsed when genuine competition came in from overseas. Without credible competitors, GW will eventually convince itself that it can set any price it wants, that it doesn't need to be innovative, that it can simply ignore things like the internet and its effect on global commerce.

I'm not quite at the point that HBMC is at (of wanting GW to burn), I just want it to get better. And the only way that is going to happen is if GW realizes that it does not have a captive market, and the only way for that to happen is for people to be willing to try something outside of their comfort zones.

Absolutely agree with your points, for the industry as a whole it might be a good thing 10 years down the road. PP has managed to get a foothold, and is now available to most gamers in most places. This 'nudge' from GW might well help other companies take that next step up to the mainstream, but as well as that force GW to play ball in the future, and improve their own services as a result. Monopolisation of any industry is good for no-one.

And from another angle, I think a lot of people will try some new miniature ranges, get to paint some new things and have a new experience as a result. I think for those who have only played GW games, they certainly will have a pleasant surprise in store for them. It could well be what reinvigorates the hobby, and this year might see a surge in the overall growth of tabletop gaming as a result.

Buzzsaw wrote:I'm not quite at the point that HBMC is at (of wanting GW to burn), I just want it to get better. And the only way that is going to happen is if GW realizes that it does not have a captive market, and the only way for that to happen is for people to be willing to try something outside of their comfort zones.

And once, Buzzsaw, you come to the realisation that GW won't ever get better and that this latest gak fight is just another in a long line of letdowns, you'll start to see things as I do.

Buzzsaw wrote:

DiscoVader wrote:

infinite_array wrote:

4M2A wrote:GW can force FLGS to increase the price. They just sell the models to the LGS at a higher price. GW still makes up such a large percentage of sales that they will keep stocking them.

That's assuming that your local FLGS makes most of its profit via GW stuff.

Out of the 3 FLGS's that I can drive to within a decent amount of time (I know, I'm so damn lucky!), none of them rely on Games Workshop to bring in the bread.

Cyborg 1 sells mostly comics and CCG's, and has actually be expanding. Within the past half-year, they've started carrying Warmachine, Malifaux, and Flames of War.

Whoa, whoa, another Cyborg 1 gamer? Were you there this Sunday for the tournament?

Egads, small world... I was there (with my Dark Eldar), you?

Yup, though I wasn't able to take part in the tourny - I'm Joe, one of the Ork players. Pretty sure we've chatted plenty of times before, didn't realize you had a Dakka account!

Buzzsaw wrote:

I'm not quite at the point that HBMC is at (of wanting GW to burn), I just want it to get better.

Sometimes a thing has to burn before it can get better

missed the following quote:

according to him they were told that 'southern hemisphere embargo' is just the start of a concerted attack on independents. Next they will be trying to enforce independents selling GW at full rrp

ACCC would have a field day with that one in AU...

Looks like I got into warhahordes & kings of war at the right time. A C&D, embargo, price hike and even worse advertisement in the space of a few days, its almost like they want people to hate them. Time to move on to other systems and allow GW to go bankrupt and restructure or be forced to sell their IP to someone who will expand the hobby and support the game better.

A friend of mine just found something interesting. It's from here. The last line is the most interesting one:

Games Workshop wrote:Competition: There is no other retailer that competes directly with Games Workshop. However, as a distributor, we are mindful of not encroaching upon our third party retailers.

Also interesting is that their (revisionist) history carefully omits the fact that they once were just a distributor of other people's games. (x2)

Kalidane wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:


Photocopy your receipt and send it to GW with a covering letter to tell them why you are spending the money on Doctor Who.

Point out that obviously you are going to promote Doctor Who games with your friends rather than Warhammer.

Hmmm do you see this as the form of communication most likely to penetrate?

That's something I could bother to do. In May I've placed 4 orders with UK suppliers and spent zero on GW product.

If they are capable of understanding anything perhaps this is it.

Certainly all those Mantic undead and AoW Dwarves and a bunch of characters are clear analogues so they should get the point.

Yes, I do. It wasn't my idea and it's a really good idea.

Everyone agrees, whether pro- or anti-GW that as a commercial company they are interested in their sales. The only way to communicate your dissatisfaction is by showing that your wargame buying will be diverted from GW to rivals.

Sending your receipts with a covering letter of explanation, does that very directly. The letter needs to be polite and clearly state the situation.

If enough people stop buying GW, they will see a fall in revenues. If accompanied by this kind of letter, it will give GW pause for thought.

I don't believe we would see a quick change of heart because GW management appear quite arrogant about the way they think in regard to their customers.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Buzzsaw wrote:I'm not quite at the point that HBMC is at (of wanting GW to burn), I just want it to get better. And the only way that is going to happen is if GW realizes that it does not have a captive market, and the only way for that to happen is for people to be willing to try something outside of their comfort zones.

And once, Buzzsaw, you come to the realisation that GW won't ever get better and that this latest gak fight is just another in a long line of letdowns, you'll start to see things as I do.

Is it okay to hope that if GW burns, someone will buy the IP, and do good things to it?

Cause I'd hate to see my beloved 40k stagnate due to lack of updates, regardless of what I might think of GW's policies.

I wouldn't worry about that. GW may come and go, but 40K will live on.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I wouldn't worry about that. GW may come and go, but 40K will live on.

Yay! : D

Speaking to a GW manager yesterday
- according to him they were told that 'southern hemisphere embargo' is just the start of a concerted attack on independents. Next they will be trying to enforce independents selling GW at full rrp

Huge amounts of Salt should be applied. Managers only have 3rd hand infos in most cases as well.

Still, I wouldn´t be surprised at this.

Defence will be
- Australian cost of living is much higher
- independents undercutting them means this store will have to close
- PP etc will soon increase prices
- resin detail is amaaazing
- reduced resin-metal price is offset by retooling, repackaging

The whole defense arguments for GWs most recent actions seem rather dumb, if true, though.

Australian costs of living higher? Maybe, I don´t see how this justifies such a difference in price. If GW stores in Australia are not worth it they should try to support FLGSs more and leave the field to them. It works fine for companies like PP.
Independents undercutting hurts GW stores? Welcome to the free market.
PP etc will increase prices as well? Yeah, I´ll take the word of a competitor for it...
Resin detail is amazing? I know other manufacturers with far better resin miniatures.
Reduced price offset by retooling and repackaging? So an average increase of 15% (someone over in the Finecast thread calculated the average increase between all Finecast minis of the first batch) is due to repackaging and retooling? Maybe they should have stayed with the old blisters then.

Anyway, as I said, this stuff surely is to be taken with a whole mine of salt.

infinite_array wrote:

4M2A wrote:GW can force FLGS to increase the price. They just sell the models to the LGS at a higher price. GW still makes up such a large percentage of sales that they will keep stocking them.

That's assuming that your local FLGS makes most of its profit via GW stuff.

Out of the 3 FLGS's that I can drive to within a decent amount of time (I know, I'm so damn lucky!), none of them rely on Games Workshop to bring in the bread.

Cyborg 1 sells mostly comics and CCG's, and has actually be expanding. Within the past half-year, they've started carrying Warmachine, Malifaux, and Flames of War.

Brave New Worlds sells mostly comics, Geek paraphernalia, and RPGs. They run weekly Kill-team games, but you don't need to buy much to have a fully functional kill team.

7th Dimension Games sells board games, CCGs, Warmachine, Flames of War, and Dystopian Wars. The owner has just bought into GW, and only 40k, since he doesn't get much interest in it.

And how could I forget my college FLGS?! Redcap's Corner does have a prominent GW presence, but they're now buying Warmachine from their stockist. And again, most of their income comes from RPGS, board games, and CCGs.

I'm down a few more miles. Probably a half hour drive. One store does about 15% of it's business in GW, the other about 25%. Significant amount of the business, in the low 5 figures. The Granite Run store sells a bit less than the best of the 3 GW stores in the nearby area, and I think beats the other two. This is counting just my GW vs. their GW. Overall sales much higher than any of the GW stores.

Just go cold turkey on GW for 1 or 2 years, GW has lost about 1/5 or more of their sales since 2005, they are making up by jacking prices, just dont feed them any money for a while (yeah you, go paint those 100+ plastic gray models you have laying there). They should realize this is simply not a viable marketing tactic.

If GW begins a concerted effort to force independants to pay full RRP (and lets face it, off the back of the Battlefront/Maelstrom debacle there seems to be some precedent for this) - even if its something as simple as raising their trade prices to the point where the only way for indies to make any profit is to sell at RRP - then GW will have passed the point of no return.

I am already commited to not buying anything more from GW, in spite of the hate filled gaze of my half-finished Dark Eldar force sat on the painting table following their recent actions on price, embargoes, secrecy, C&Ds et al (not to mention their inability to sort out their rules, fluff, release schedules, etc) but this is just plain lunacy.

I pray that if this happens, indies can rally their customers to other games and then watch and laugh as GW drowns in the s**tstorm of their own devising. A company this morally bankrupt and contemptuous of its cutomers deserves nothing but failure.

Lets hope it happens soon.

Because I kept reading how GW charged through the nose for their products in Austria, I took a money conversion tool and went to GW Austria to check some prices. And I was dumbfounded by what I saw. Everything was easily 50, 60% more than their equivalents in US or european GW sites. Like that land raider at 106 AUD -> 111 USD.

Now I truly understand the anger at GW's last lunacy.

Just by the way, Austria is a different country to Australia

I dunno if this has alreayd been posted so don't be read to jump on me but i have already heard of why they are cutting their development to The US in perticular as it was let slip by a recent chat i had with a GW employee (not the local) who was at a meeting they are opening a new factory in the US and trying to market more stores and build a sturdier base of collectors over there so i don't think its all doom and gloom.

and if im wrong ill have to pop up to have another chat

Placed my order with maelstrom today.

Looks like I will be rescuing crippled 2nd hand minis from eBay in future...

AvatarForm wrote:Placed my order with maelstrom today.

Looks like I will be rescuing crippled 2nd hand minis from eBay in future...

Seconded.

Shadowsword8 wrote:Everything was easily 50, 60% more than their equivalents in US or european GW sites. Like that land raider at 106 AUD -> 111 USD.

Everyone does the rip off to us here in Oz; all the big clothing labels, electronic labels, books... check out the price difference of a Ralph Lauren polo between the US and Australia. That's why they restrict sales to the US from Ralph Lauren's webstore to US only , and you need to use a mail forwarder which costs extra.

Getting ripped off by the retailers is a very fashionable thing to do to the Australians. GW just wants in.

severedblue wrote:

Getting ripped off by the retailers is a very fashionable thing to do to the Australians. GW just wants in.

And in NZ. It is criminal. Just ordered a bunch of goodies off ebay. Got some sweet bargains. Eh I'm still angry but I've made my last order from wayland and I have like 50+ marines and ~10 Vehicles to paint. I'm going to busy for a while and hopefully something will happen about this whole fiasco.

From Maelstrom's latest newsletter:

Maelstrom - a co-called 'Internet Freeloader', if GW is to believed, wrote:Rest of the World Customers
The new Games Workshop terms and conditions take effect on the 30th of May, but as Monday is a bank holiday they take effect - in reality - on the 31st of May. Thus, Rest of the World customers still have from now until midnight (GMT) on the 30th of May to order your Games Workshop product from ourselves. Don't miss out!

Remember, too, that all Rest of the World customers need to do to take advantage of our service, prices and range is to a) make payment from within the EU and b) have their product delivered to anywhere in the EU.

As well as that, Rest of the World customers can still buy all the other products from our store!

They've also mentioned that Finecost will be up for pre-order soon.

H.B.M.C. wrote:From Maelstrom's latest newsletter:

Maelstrom - a co-called 'Internet Freeloader', if GW is to believed, wrote:Rest of the World Customers
The new Games Workshop terms and conditions take effect on the 30th of May, but as Monday is a bank holiday they take effect - in reality - on the 31st of May. Thus, Rest of the World customers still have from now until midnight (GMT) on the 30th of May to order your Games Workshop product from ourselves. Don't miss out!

Remember, too, that all Rest of the World customers need to do to take advantage of our service, prices and range is to a) make payment from within the EU and b) have their product delivered to anywhere in the EU.

As well as that, Rest of the World customers can still buy all the other products from our store!

They've also mentioned that Finecost will be up for pre-order soon.

Exactly why I have 2 guys in my DnD (Skype) group working out the best way of handling this. They both live within driving distance of Wayland and Dark Sphere.

We figure, we need to organise a AUS distribution so that we can have at least fortnightly shipments to cut back on shipping from the UK.

Once this is sorted, the only additional cost will be the shipping, and this can be mitigated by spreading the load.

Roughly, one tactical squad ($55AUD) will only cost $38AUD with this system.

I know it is not the present Maelstrom/Wayland price, but it is the best option I can find at present.

Perhaps we can begin a thread to organise this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
We are rpesently working on a solution for the current situation. Please direct your input here:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/371626.page

http://www.choice.com.au/media-and-news/consumer-news/news/retail-inquiry-submission.aspx

CHOICE weighs in on retail inquiry

By now the fact that Australians pay a lot more for a wide range of products than shoppers in the US, UK or Asia is not news to most consumers. But when this continues to be the case despite the Aussie dollar reaching parity with the US greenback last October and hitting $1.10 earlier this month, it’s time to take a closer look.

The Productivity Commission (PC) is doing just that with its inquiry into the retail sector and will report its findings in November. In our Submission to the Productivity Commission, lodged today, CHOICE calls on importers, distributors and retailers to pass some of the savings they are enjoying thanks to the strong Aussie dollar on to Australian consumers. We are already seeing the results of their failing to do so – a massive uptick in Australian consumers shopping on overseas websites.

Who can blame them when Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 games, for instance, cost 91% more from a major Australian online retailer than from an overseas online website based in Asia? Or when a pair of Nike running shoes cost $240 at a major Australian sports retailer while the same product can be bought online for $134 from a US sports store?

Digital disparity

The disparity when it comes to digital goods is even more jarring. For example, the top 12 music albums recently cost, on average, 73% more on the Australian iTunes store than the US iTunes store. What’s worse, some companies use technologies that block international IP addresses and push consumers to ‘local’ websites, even though parallel importing is legal in many cases.

CHOICE director of campaigns and communications, Christopher Zinn, says the explosion in overseas online shopping is an overdue comeuppance for Australian retail as a whole.

“The pressure from overseas online competition is a much needed wake up for Australian retailers to be more competitive. We need to move beyond a complacent culture of high prices, high margins and poor service,” says Mr Zinn.

He adds that the price differential runs from white goods to motorcycles to TVs and many points in between. “It’s up to those in the supply chain here in Australia to justify why this is the case. Importers and retailers should not cry foul if consumers chase better prices, wherever they may be.”

Red herring

The retail industry’s argument that the overseas online boom is the result of the GST-free threshold for products under a $1000 does not hold up to the facts. Simply put, adding 10% to the cost of a product that is 91% cheaper is not an effective deterrent. CHOICE argues that this is a distraction from the real issue of excessive mark-ups and challenges the industry to offer realistic explanations on why prices are so high or – better yet – begin offering better deals for Australian consumers. The imposition of a GST on overseas purchases will not make the threat of far better deals overseas go away.

Stayed tuned for a full investigation in the July issue of CHOICE magazine.

It's probably too late to bring up the issue of mini pricing to Choice now that they've already made their submission, but it's good there's someone looking into this.

Any mention of higher wages being a factor in their submission/article/report?

Nope, nothing. At least not when I ran my eyes over the article late last night after someone posted it on GW's FB.

I'd be curious to see what would happen (if anything) if someone alerted a finance journalist to the GW situation... Actual bad press might make GW stop thinking this is just nerd-rage that'll go away and everything will go back to normal in a month or two.

This looks to be the enquiry referenced.

http://www.pc.gov.au/projects/inquiry/retail-industry

I always seem to find out about these things after the fact - submissions closed on 20th May.

CHOICE, alike the ACCC is as effective as a toothless chihuahua in most cases.

People please, DO NOT work a solution for this, make a bulk purchase this week and make it last 2 years, the only way GW will get the message across is delivering it with a SHARP drop in sales. They have lost nearly 20% of their customer base since 2005, no matter what they say, they cant keep this up for long.

This change may have no effect here in Bulgaria but i stongly disagree with GW's (not so) recent behaviour pattern, in fact i changed my sig to match.

I'm lucky to be able to ride out the price rises and general GW stupidity, however, I think it's criminal that we cannot buy from where we wish.

A sale is a sale for GW

If they want to protect their own GW retail sales figures... sorry, insert Hobby Centre interested newbie numbers, coz they don't give a stuff about Indies (anywhere in the world)... WE in the land of OZ downunder, wish to still play the game, so we all buy from the frozen north via UK friends or the 'plastic underground' to cripple Australian GW shop sales

The Indies get more sales from newbies, we get what we want, GW get an overall sale... they can pull out of OZ if they can't take it locally

win / win... for us

Mik

I'm not sure if anyone else has posted this here, but a very interesting post on the forum 'The 5th Column'

Don't read if you already have high blood pressure..

http://wolftemplars.blogspot.com/2011/05/update-on-gw-price-and-embargo.html

I look at it and (if it's real) wonder what the hell is going on! :(

That response was almost identical to the open letter my friend send which I posted here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/210/370382.page#2844750

xxvaderxx wrote:People please, DO NOT work a solution for this, make a bulk purchase this week and make it last 2 years, the only way GW will get the message across is delivering it with a SHARP drop in sales. They have lost nearly 20% of their customer base since 2005, no matter what they say, they cant keep this up for long.

Making a bulk panic-purchase is about as bad as using a work around. Better use the work around to show them that the embargo did not work.
The only real way to show SOMETHING is actually stopping buying GW stuff. Now. Cold Turkey.

While you are correct that only a sharp drop in sales will show them that somethings wrong, a sudden surge of purchses just beforehand will show them that bad news may result in a huge spike in panic induced purchases.
As you have said, GW is losing customers for some while now. That won´t change anytime soon either (especially not since the "next big thing" with those models of "never seen before detail level" turned out to have a sizeable number of bad miscasts and airbubbles). And increase in the speed they´re loosing customers might show them something. A sudden surge just beforehand will only show them "Hey, sales increased just beforehand. Later they began to fall again, but we know that allready. Let´s do something like this again."

severedblue wrote:First I acknowledge that this is 4th hand information.

Maybe Australian law cannot change a trade embargo in Europe, but if there is an attack on independents of this kind and it can be proven, "price fixing" is a serious crime in Australia and the authorities will investigate. GW cannot dictate what price the independent retailers sell at especially since they are also in the retail space. My FLGS sells his stock at 10% flat below GW retail prices, that's one reason I support him.

Speaking to a GW manager yesterday
- according to him they were told that 'southern hemisphere embargo' is just the start of a concerted attack on independents. Next they will be trying to enforce independents selling GW at full rrp
- independents undercutting them means this store will have to close

If they do try this, I am almost certain the ACCC can take action and even if they didn't one lawsuit would quickly put an end to it
Every retailer, quite literally, would have to do absolutely nothing for this to be enforced

I normally wouldn't lend credence to this type of stuff, but after the embargo i think they may just be stupid enough to do this

Vimes wrote:Making a bulk panic-purchase is about as bad as using a work around. Better use the work around to show them that the embargo did not work.
The only real way to show SOMETHING is actually stopping buying GW stuff. Now. Cold Turkey.

I agree. I almost did a final splurge before I was cut off from Maelstrom, but I managed to hold back. GW will not see one more penny (or yen for that matter) from until they are broken of this demented anti-customer attitude. I love the IP too much to support its horrible mismanagement under the current owners. I can only hope that enough people take a similar approach to bring down GW and free the IP up for someone sane to buy it. I am however resigned to the fact that I may simply have to abandon a hobby that I just recently got back into.

Bulk panic purchase evens out the ones none buying protests.
Thats why GW wont feel the pinch of dissatisfied customers.

:'< i is guilty

severedblue wrote:First I acknowledge that this is 4th hand information.

Maybe Australian law cannot change a trade embargo in Europe, but if there is an attack on independents of this kind and it can be proven, "price fixing" is a serious crime in Australia and the authorities will investigate. GW cannot dictate what price the independent retailers sell at especially since they are also in the retail space. My FLGS sells his stock at 10% flat below GW retail prices, that's one reason I support him.

The issue of price fixing and GW dictating what price a retailer must sell at are slightly different.

For it to be considered price fixing, there would have to be a unanimous, secret decision between several retailers to sell at a fixed price.

GW is well within their rights to force a retailer to sell their product at a particular price in return for being able to stock said product.

I don't like it, and it's poor form, but sadly there's nothing illegal about doing it. It's the exact same way that apple do business.

black-rabbit wrote:GW is well within their rights to force a retailer to sell their product at a particular price in return for being able to stock said product.

It's called resale price fixing, and it is against the law.

Lol, i love how a guy sitting in an office in London, is telling a multiple tournament organizer, half way around the world, that he is mistaken and reality is not how he perceives it on the other side of the globe. Kind of an Hydrophobic telling a multiple Olympic swim champion that he is swimming wrong...

They've also mentioned that Finecost will be up for pre-order soon.

I probably account for about 1/8th of the finecast allocation to maelstrom in the first round...

almost bought one of everything... n this will be my last purchase of GW for around a year at my estimation

GW is well within their rights to force a retailer to sell their product at a particular price in return for being able to stock said product.

I don't like it, and it's poor form, but sadly there's nothing illegal about doing it. It's the exact same way that apple do business.

As Alex has already said, this is illegal practice in australia, the ACCC would come down on that like a sack of potatoes.

Have a look at their quarterly reports, you'll see the reason why they're doing it... GW australia is currently operating at a loss, compared to 2 years ago where it was operating at a significant profit (at least compared to how much of a loss).

Restrict the sales from alternative means forces you into their stores, means their numbers will increase cause theres no alternative.

It’s been a fun ride kids, but GW’s insane embargo kicks in tonight (overnight for us in the Southern Hemisphere).

The real test of just how much bs GW is full of remains to be seen though. Everyone check on Wednesday to see if they can order from GWUK or GWUS still.

H.B.M.C. wrote:It’s been a fun ride kids, but GW’s insane embargo kicks in tonight (overnight for us in the Southern Hemisphere).

The real test of just how much bs GW is full of remains to be seen though. Everyone check on Wednesday to see if they can order from GWUK or GWUS still.

Even if i could, i would rather pay the same price on Ebay.

And some news from Wayland:

28/5/2011

We have closed the store for a couple of days whilst we make some updates.

Lots of new products being added. And the GW price changes being applied.

We should be back open late Sunday the 29th.

So please look out for Scibor, Ex-illis and Finecast on the store plus a new category that may be of particular interest to our customers outside the EU ;o)

*snip links*

If you have a query about an existing order, please contact our helpdesk on the address below. If we could however ask you to refrain where possible from raising tickets chasing orders it would not only be greatly appreciated but it would go a long way towards expediting orders through the backlog which has been created by an unprecedented level of orders as a result of the terms changes and the price rises.

http://support.waylandgames.co.uk

Thank you for your understanding and your loyal custom, we'll be back as soon as we possibly can be!

It occurs to me that another potential way around the 'embargo' is for online retailers to offer second-hand miniatures.

It should only be the stuff bought directly from GW that is covered by the trade agreements. What happens after the stock is 'sold' and subsequently 're-purchased second hand' or 'written off for store display stock' is none of GW's business...

I thought of that - get in new stock. Open all the stock. Now the stock cannot be re-boxed/re-sealed and therefore cannot be sold normally. It is now '2nd hand'.

So sell it anywhere.

Bit sneaky though, and it would be a strange for someone to order 2nd hand models that aren't in stock, then suddenly they are when Maelstrom (or whoever) gets their latest shipment of new stock.

Yeah, I rather suspect that as fun as it sounds, GW wouldn't allow it... While they can't necessarily dictate terms to stop it, they can just choose to stop supplying.

AvatarForm wrote:CHOICE, alike the ACCC is as effective as a toothless chihuahua in most cases.

Whist that may be true on the most part there is a general rule of thumb in Australian Consumer Business; Don't piss CHOICE off!

The biggest problem with them is they are a third party organisation with no formal direct links, but when you have the right people essentially on speed dial...

insaniak wrote:It occurs to me that another potential way around the 'embargo' is for online retailers to offer second-hand miniatures.

Its funny you should mention that. One internet seller I use, looking the today at said seller(whom shall remain nameless) has a catagory of second hand minis now, seperate from the new stuff, for both 40k and fantasy. Interesting.....

Selling them used would certainly be a good alternative. How used does it need to be to count as used? Just take it out of the packaging?

-Loki- wrote:Selling them used would certainly be a good alternative. How used does it need to be to count as used? Just take it out of the packaging?

That is all is required.

Loose sprues outside packaging.

It would certainly make bits sites re-consider there pricing.

It would have to be sold and repurchased, or actually used for some purpose, I would think. I don't know if it's still there (although I would be surprised if it's not), but GW's trade agreement used to include a clause about only selling in original packaging... so just buying direct from GW, taking it out of the box and selling it like that wouldn't cut it.

insaniak wrote:It would have to be sold and repurchased, or actually used for some purpose, I would think. I don't know if it's still there (although I would be surprised if it's not), but GW's trade agreement used to include a clause about only selling in original packaging... so just buying direct from GW, taking it out of the box and selling it like that wouldn't cut it.

It depends on how it's paid for. So for example, A retailer could bulk buy at retailer costs from GW, effectively sell to himself, or should I say buy the products from his own store, and then resell them as second hand. As long as he can prove the finance trail, who could accuse him of any wrong doing? He wouldn't even need to remove the plastic wrapping....

Add to this, he could even sell to himself for something like £1 a box, making ahuge loss on the original sale, but knowing full well he would get his money back on the products sold abroad anyway....in theory, all that would happen, is the price of buying second hand would be £1 dearer than normal...

Delephont wrote:It depends on how it's paid for. So for example, A retailer could bulk buy at retailer costs from GW, effectively sell to himself, or should I say buy the products from his own store, and then resell them as second hand. As long as he can prove the finance trail, who could accuse him of any wrong doing? He wouldn't even need to remove the plastic wrapping....

Add to this, he could even sell to himself for something like £1 a box, making ahuge loss on the original sale, but knowing full well he would get his money back on the products sold abroad anyway....in theory, all that would happen, is the price of buying second hand would be £1 dearer than normal...

This is a really bad idea. It would guarantee that GW can end the contract, and any judge that hears the dispute will rule in GW's favour. Do you know why? Because judges hate smartasses. Trying to use such legerdemain to get around your legal responsibilities just puts you on the level of tax protesters and other pains in the ass.

AlexHolker wrote:

Delephont wrote:It depends on how it's paid for. So for example, A retailer could bulk buy at retailer costs from GW, effectively sell to himself, or should I say buy the products from his own store, and then resell them as second hand. As long as he can prove the finance trail, who could accuse him of any wrong doing? He wouldn't even need to remove the plastic wrapping....

Add to this, he could even sell to himself for something like £1 a box, making ahuge loss on the original sale, but knowing full well he would get his money back on the products sold abroad anyway....in theory, all that would happen, is the price of buying second hand would be £1 dearer than normal...

This is a really bad idea. It would guarantee that GW can end the contract, and any judge that hears the dispute will rule in GW's favour. Do you know why? Because judges hate smartasses. Trying to use such legerdemain to get around your legal responsibilities just puts you on the level of tax protesters and other pains in the ass.

Whoa there hoss, we were speculating about "how" the second hand retail route could be undertaken. I'm not a retailer, nor do I act as an advisor to any, and nor do I buy GW products....so let's play nice.

Plus look at my flag and look at yours, you'd think someone in your position would be slightly more positive towards any "idea / effort" that may bring you some savings....of course, if you'd prefer to pay top dollar while I, if I were still a customer, glibly pay half what you do, then hey, have at it

This is a complete and utterly slowed move on GW's part. It would alienate almost HALF of the world and potential markets. Not only that, I dont even think its legal.

In any event there is NO way they can enforce this since a retailer is subject to the laws of commerce in their country, not whatever GW says. That being said any retailer in any country can buy their stuff and then do whatever the heck they want with it.

I forsee a lot more people going to ebay to buy their GW products given this move. This is just stupid, GW is literally digging themselves a hole. If I were an investor I'd pull out asap.

Deus_Morte wrote:That being said any retailer in any country can buy their stuff and then do whatever the heck they want with it.

No, any retailer that they choose to supply can buy their stuff. If they don't like what you do with it then you don't get to buy it. They are under zero pressure to supply anyone that they do not want to supply.

Even if the retailer buys through a distributor, GW can simply tell the distributor not to supply them or face losing the ability to purchase their goods.

It is common practice in many sectors to limit retailers geographic boundaries. I've negotiated contracts like that for a variety of electrical goods and housewares.

Whether it's a good idea or not is a completely different subject...

Temujin wrote:

Vimes wrote:Making a bulk panic-purchase is about as bad as using a work around. Better use the work around to show them that the embargo did not work.
The only real way to show SOMETHING is actually stopping buying GW stuff. Now. Cold Turkey.

I agree. I almost did a final splurge before I was cut off from Maelstrom, but I managed to hold back. GW will not see one more penny (or yen for that matter) from until they are broken of this demented anti-customer attitude. I love the IP too much to support its horrible mismanagement under the current owners. I can only hope that enough people take a similar approach to bring down GW and free the IP up for someone sane to buy it. I am however resigned to the fact that I may simply have to abandon a hobby that I just recently got back into.

+1 Love the IP, hate the management

I had decided that I was not going to make one last splurge and I kept to it. I have instead ordered the Dystopian Wars land force. There are other companies that want my money that don't treat me as idiot like GW clearly thinks that are its OZ customers.

GW management can shove their life sized space marine where the sun don't shine

The only way Australians can afford GW anymore:

http://perth.gumtree.com.au/c-ViewAd?AdId=286798723&Guid=13044158-5410-a




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aw, the above ad's been taken down now but basically one of my friend's posted another of my friends as being up for sale for $200 with the following:

‎1 Human male. 25yo. Mostly in good working order. Back is a bit stuffed but other organs all in good working order. Answers to "Brad". Mostly house trained. Need cash quick to buy Brettonian Warhammer army.

So what ended up being the thing that Wayland is doing for customers internationally? I'm looking at their site but can't seem to find it

Asuron wrote:So what ended up being the thing that Wayland is doing for customers internationally? I'm looking at their site but can't seem to find it

I think this is it:

http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/games-workshop/rest-of-world-customers/cat_956.html

filbert wrote:

Asuron wrote:So what ended up being the thing that Wayland is doing for customers internationally? I'm looking at their site but can't seem to find it

I think this is it:

http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/games-workshop/rest-of-world-customers/cat_956.html

Hmmm
Did they make any other announcements on what they are doing with this?
and how does it get past the embargo?

Asuron wrote:

filbert wrote:

Asuron wrote:So what ended up being the thing that Wayland is doing for customers internationally? I'm looking at their site but can't seem to find it

I think this is it:

http://www.waylandgames.co.uk/games-workshop/rest-of-world-customers/cat_956.html

Hmmm
Did they make any other announcements on what they are doing with this?
and how does it get past the embargo?

My guess would be they'd either source the ROW products separately to their EU only products (without using a trade account or through a third party distributor) and sell at a margin above UK RRP to cover the cost (or reduced discount if they sourced it from a distributor), just like they do with direct only items. This means they can still offer Aus + NZ customers a 30% discount on Aus RRP.

Better than nothing

This is typical of games workshop.. My reckoning is that they will eventually destroy themselves through their over pricing, poor management and poor customer services.. take for example Games day 2010 in the UK the event was half the size as 2009 more expensive, and awfully crowded. it makes me sad to think that a company that produces or produced such wonderful miniatures has such disrespect for it's loyal customers. i really feel sorry for you people of the southern hemisphere.

They think that us customers are stupid. i have not bought a single games workshop product since GD 2010 when lost my last respect for them as a company.. i was however moderately excited at the announcement of Citadel Finecast.. well until i say how utterly poor and shoddy the quality of the miniatures was.. resin is a cheap material and when cast well can have terrific results and fabulous quality.. finecast, ironically is not well cast at all and is downright poor with bubbles in the resin and in many cases badly warped and formed parts.. i don't know how long how long they think the can go on deceiving people but it must stop and prices must come down!


I propose a boycott of Games Workshop products until things change!


anyway that's my anti-games workshop rant over... for now

I wonder how much of a risk they are taking with doing that?

Just thinking how GW used to treat independents in the past, I don't think they would lose too much sleep over cutting off even a major retailer such as Wayland.

Pacific wrote:I wonder how much of a risk they are taking with doing that?

Just thinking how GW used to treat independents in the past, I don't think they would lose too much sleep over cutting off even a major retailer such as Wayland.

Well GW can always just give another 20% price rise to cover any loss of sales from Wayland

I'm interested to see what Wayland place there, and what their 'work around' turns out to be!

Alpharius wrote:I'm interested to see what Wayland place there, and what their 'work around' turns out to be!

I certainly hope they can do something.

GW really is shameless. From what's new today:

The Australians practice their rugby moves on the staff at Sunshine Plaza. Maybe they're trying out for the next England vs Australia match... Suffice to say, the staff member (and the security gate for that matter) lost the fight and the crowds surged in.

Probably to burn the place down, not to see the new finecast, amiright?

Tzeentchling9 wrote:GW really is shameless. From what's new today:

The Australians practice their rugby moves on the staff at Sunshine Plaza. Maybe they're trying out for the next England vs Australia match... Suffice to say, the staff member (and the security gate for that matter) lost the fight and the crowds surged in.

Probably to burn the place down, not to see the new finecast, amiright?

Rephrased in non-corporate speak;






"In other news, local Australians attempted to escape the local Games Workshop shop today after seeing the prices of the new Finecost models. Initially it looked as if the staff were going to be successful in their herding attempts, however the group found an unexpected hole in the newly placed Finecast door and escaped."

lol, except it looks like they're running INTO the store....

Stop it with your 'facts'! They disrupt the flow of AoE's story...

Sam__theRelentless wrote:lol, except it looks like they're running away from soap and water....

]

Fix'd that for you

CT GAMER wrote:

Sam__theRelentless wrote:lol, except it looks like they're running away from soap and water....

]

Fix'd that for you

but... what?

Oh nevermind


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sam__theRelentless wrote:lol, except it looks like they're running away from the CRASSUS ARMORED ASSAULT TRANSPORT

CT GAMER wrote:

Sam__theRelentless wrote:lol, except it looks like they're running away from soap and water....

]

Fix'd that for you

Zing!

Also, did you notice how small that crowd is?

It is nothing compared to a Midnight release for WoW or Halo2/3...

Besides, most of those pictured wouldnt make a first 15 and probably dont know what Rugby is jusging by how pale they are.

9 to 10 people is a crowd? I would have said its a "group". Or a "shambles".

9-10 people is not a crowd, it's a boxed set and will be charged AU$74 to leave the shop

What is the collective noun for a group of wargamers?

A 'nerd' of gamers? A 'geekery' of gamers?

Well $74 for the first day, $94 the next.

A 'pod' of gamers.

A "smell" of gamers..

It's a gaggle of gamers. People need to watch more animal channel

40k Radio is once again completely agreeing with GW's views and is spinning this as a massive victory for the "The little guy", repeating those tired old "Your FLGS will go out of business if you don't support them" lies that everyone's heard a million times before. Their rhetoric is so condescending, so greasy, so full of insipid "This is for your own good, trust us" mantra being repeated over and over again that if I didn't know any better, I'd think Romeo was GW's VP for Marketing. Hell, I think they should hire him for services rendered.

Once again, they take every opportunity to insult anyone who doesn't share their instant cult-like adherence to and acceptance of everything GW does, (mentioning this forum by name, even) and associating them with insulting caricatures they whip out of their own feverish imaginations, with only tenuous links to reality.

Agamemnon2 wrote:Stop playing their games

No. you don't have to be horrible people who make the rest of us feel bad and refuse to play with us. Where we buy our miniatures is not really up to you, but if you're not a true gamer than why are you still here? Their game is excellent, their businesses practices not so, but one does not influence the other.

Sam__theRelentless wrote:Where we buy our miniatures is not really up to you, but if you're not a true gamer than why are you still here?

Not that I owe you an explanation, but here goes. There are other games. I'm painting up my stockpile of Warmachine models right now. Looking towards Dystopian Wars next, maybe. I won't leave this forum unless discussion on non-GW product is disallowed. If you don't like it, tough.

Sorry. I was a bit out of line.

The point is, I was just dissecting why most gamers are like me, and how this relates to the problem/discussion


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It was a rhetorical question

Agamemnon2 wrote:repeating those tired old "Your FLGS will go out of business if you don't support them" lies that everyone's heard a million times before.

Not a lie... Many store owners show it to be true as well as many of the out of business places that collapsed under the moochers who never bought anything.

Deepeyes wrote:It's a gaggle of gamers. People need to watch more animal channel

I prefer a 'Funk of Gamers' or possibly a 'Waft of Gamers'.

nkelsch wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:repeating those tired old "Your FLGS will go out of business if you don't support them" lies that everyone's heard a million times before.

Not a lie... Many store owners show it to be true as well as many of the out of business places that collapsed under the moochers who never bought anything.

Many deserve to. That support was only running one way, only the whining we should buy from them, but then they turn around and have no support for the gamer. F'em.

nkelsch wrote:Not a lie... Many store owners show it to be true as well as many of the out of business places that collapsed under the moochers who never bought anything.

Many store owners choose to blame the internet for their store not doing well, yes. Whether or not that's actually true is another story entirely.

insaniak wrote:

nkelsch wrote:Not a lie... Many store owners show it to be true as well as many of the out of business places that collapsed under the moochers who never bought anything.

Many store owners choose to blame the internet for their store not doing well, yes. Whether or not that's actually true is another story entirely.

While my mantra is "Pay where you play", a good store owner shouldn't need to get bitter that people aren't buying from them. If the store is worth playing at, it's worth buying from 98% of the time. If you're having to buy table time, you don't owe that game shop anything more than what you're paying for the space, though. John at Chaos Games and More in Pueblo, CO (for those in the southern CO area) and Chris at Warzone Matrix in Cleveland (Polonius and others will know who i'm referring to), OH are 2 of the people who've fed my plasticrack habit over the past few years, and I wouldn't think to purchase my models from anywhere I wasn't playing unless I couldn't find it there, and didn't feel like waiting for the week and a half or more turnaround time.

As I've posted elsewhere, GW did nothing to help my local independent stores. When the hobby was turning over enough money in the area, they opened a store here and cut them out of the loop. I suspect this happens a lot. My point being, by supporting your FLGS, you could be inadvertently contributing to their demise. Either way, with GW, they're probably screwed.

Aspiring Champion wrote:As I've posted elsewhere, GW did nothing to help my local independent stores. When the hobby was turning over enough money in the area, they opened a store here and cut them out of the loop. I suspect this happens a lot. My point being, by supporting your FLGS, you could be inadvertently contributing to their demise. Either way, with GW, they're probably screwed.

Of course, at that point, wouldn't you be screwed no matter what?

I've often heard this theory put forth, and I have to admit, it does sound plausible, but is there any proof that GW has done this?

Alpharius wrote:

Aspiring Champion wrote:I've often heard this theory put forth, and I have to admit, it does sound plausible, but is there any proof that GW has done this?

Did it to my local back in the early 90s. Just after he ordered a load of stock too, he was not pleased and it took him a long time to shift it. He's still there (albeit on a smaller premises), GW is not though.

frozenwastes wrote:

Alpharius wrote:

Aspiring Champion wrote:As I've posted elsewhere, GW did nothing to help my local independent stores. When the hobby was turning over enough money in the area, they opened a store here and cut them out of the loop. I suspect this happens a lot. My point being, by supporting your FLGS, you could be inadvertently contributing to their demise. Either way, with GW, they're probably screwed.

Of course, at that point, wouldn't you be screwed no matter what?

I've often heard this theory put forth, and I have to admit, it does sound plausible, but is there any proof that GW has done this?

Call Joe at Comics America up in Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada and ask him about how GW assured him that they had no plans to open up a GW store in Winnipeg if he took on their product and then a few months later, there it was, in a mall in the same side of town. Though he might just hang up on you as soon as you mention GW. Good thing his primary business (comics) kept his business going.

Games Plus in Mt. Prospect, Illinois. It was one of the best stores in the entire state and definitely the best stocked/selling one in the greater Chicagoland area in the 90's and early 00's during a time when GW had a single store in the entire state... so they decided to open their second store on the SAME road less than a 3 minute drive away in the same small suburb. That store also started getting their stock intermittently filled and frequently late during those first few years (with their new releases *shipping* from GW to them on fridays while the GW store had them on the rack for sale on fridays). It's not a rumor or theory but a fact at least in the case above. I even helped in an undercover sting (lol) when GW denied that they were selling the figs before the FLGS had them; I ended up driving the 1 mile and buying the fig so they could fax the receipt to prove to their rep that he was blatantly (to put it mildly) wrong. The store ended up closing a few years later because no one over the age of 13 gamed or bought anything on a regular basis there. At the time, we normally drew 12-16 people on Thursdays and Tuesdays for 40k from around the city.

H.B.M.C. wrote:You're not listening.

Ordering from GWUK or US. Paying UK/US (ie. 50% cheaper) prices. These are then shipped from the UK or the US. Nothing comes from the Oz distribution centre.

Which makes GW an 'internet freeloader', as they're not supporting the hobby in Oz. Ha!

Maybe that was their plan all along?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Buzzsaw wrote:Just stop for a moment and contemplate that: if you want to buy GW products from GW, you save a huge amount by, not walking down the street to their store, but going online and getting it shipped from halfway around the planet.

This has been my point for quite some time. There is, no joke, a GW store less than 800 metres from my front door (750m according to Google maps). Getting something from GWUK is cheaper than walking up the road to my (exceptionally) local GW.

I did say when all this embargo crap started than the real test of how truthful it all was would be if GW stopped you from ordering even from themselves in a different country. Seems my fears were realised - you still can, and God-damn that's a lot of egg on their collective faces.

infinite_array wrote:Woah, woah, waittaminute. Your saying that Aussies can order from the GW UK site, get them at UK prices, and them have them shipped from the UK, completely cutting out Australian GW stores, which was the point of restricting UK stockists selling to people outside of the EU?

That's... that's just... gah! Really? That really is hypocritical.

That's exactly what I'm saying. Amazing huh?

Only for certain things. You have to be very smart about what you order from GWUK or the shipping will kick you in the guts. WHFB Khorne Lord on Juggernaut by itself with shipping (over £18 shipping + the £20.50 for the model) is actually more expensive the ship than buy from GWAUS ($55AUD). This means I won't be able to get my hands on one unless it's eBay.

That's because their shipping starts at a flat rate, so one item orders are always going to be more expensive unless it's a big boxed item with different shipping.

There's a 'sweet spot' for ordering.

Doesn't change the fact that GWUK are nothing but an internet freeloader bringing down 'The Hobby'!

warboss wrote:
Games Plus in Mt. Prospect, Illinois. It was one of the best stores in the entire state and definitely the best stocked/selling one in the greater Chicagoland area in the 90's and early 00's during a time when GW had a single store in the entire state... so they decided to open their second store on the SAME road less than a 3 minute drive away in the same small suburb. That store also started getting their stock intermittently filled and frequently late during those first few years (with their new releases *shipping* from GW to them on fridays while the GW store had them on the rack for sale on fridays). It's not a rumor or theory but a fact at least in the case above. I even helped in an undercover sting (lol) when GW denied that they were selling the figs before the FLGS had them; I ended up driving the 1 mile and buying the fig so they could fax the receipt to prove to their rep that he was blatantly (to put it mildly) wrong. The store ended up closing a few years later because no one over the age of 13 gamed or bought anything on a regular basis there. At the time, we normally drew 12-16 people on Thursdays and Tuesdays for 40k from around the city.

It was the same situation in the UK I believe. I used to work at an independent, the owner said it was fine until a GW store opened in the same town. Then the orders started to arrive late, new releases were out of stock until they had been in the GW store for a couple of weeks etc. The rep kept on messing him around until he just decided to drop GW altogether - luckily the store held enough other lines (and other non-wargaming stuff) that they managed to stay afloat.

Can you imagine how much MORE money GW would make if they got rid of ALL their retail overhead and simply sold via internet and to independent retailers. Then they could just have regional support teams that would travel around and host tournaments in local stores or public venues and just provide great retail and customer support.

They truly are idiots.

And the lord said "let there be MANTIC!"

And Ronnie intoned "amen."

lord marcus wrote:And the lord said "let there be MANTIC!"

And Ronnie intoned "amen."

And he also said "Let there be space dwarfs, lo and behold there will be space dwarfs coming to aussie land in october" alomg with other races.

Thats what I heard

H.B.M.C. wrote:That's because their shipping starts at a flat rate, so one item orders are always going to be more expensive unless it's a big boxed item with different shipping.

There's a 'sweet spot' for ordering.

Doesn't change the fact that GWUK are nothing but an internet freeloader bringing down 'The Hobby'!

Stop repeating yourself man... I dont think they are listening.

Doesn't change the fact that GWUK are nothing but an internet freelo...

Oh right...

H.B.M.C. wrote:That's because their shipping starts at a flat rate, so one item orders are always going to be more expensive unless it's a big boxed item with different shipping.

There's a 'sweet spot' for ordering.

Doesn't change the fact that GWUK are nothing but an internet freeloader bringing down 'The Hobby'!

Question of clarification, did someone in Aus order from the GWUK site, pay the UK rate and get it shipped to them and have received it?

I ask because...can't believe I'm saying this... in GW's defense (just died a little inside) it could be that the online store hasn't been updated/isn't smart enough to say "Hey this person is an Aussie trying to get cheap stuff Stop him!" when you are just putting a cart together but when the guys in the UK shipping department see an Aus address some flags go up and order is canceled.

Friend of mine is organising a mini-Blood Bowl league, and is picking up some extra teams (plus he wants some BFG stuff for when we start playing Rogue Teader). They're cheaper from the UK, and he ordered them.

It was only yesterday, so they haven't arrived yet (I'd be surprised if they've shipped).

You know, given GW's general inability to understand how these newfangled interweb tube things work, it wouldn't surprise me if they simply overlooked the fact that people in one country would go to another country's GW site to order product... After all, you select your own country when you try to enter the site through that bloody annoying portal page. So clearly that's where you're going to order from... right...?


Alternatively, and giving them some credit for not being complete idiots (while not saying anything about the honesty of their business practices) it's also possible that this whole international embargo thing was nothing more than a way for them to track where sales are actually going to. They can see from their webstore statistics where their own orders go, but can't track where independant stores' sales are going, and that would mess with their regional sales breakdowns. So the 'obvious' answer is to restrict everyone whose sales figures they can't access to selling in their own regions, with no need to limit their own stores.

Still hypocritical given the actual public reason for the change... but would at least make some sort of sense.

Has Wayland games given any more detail on their 'work around' yet?

Nope. Still waiting on details.

So, it appears without waiting for Wayland we already have a work around planned out for our local club.

Though for the majority, I truly hope that Wayland sorts this out asap

Perhaps Wayland or Maelstrom can have an 'independent' shopfront (next door) to whom we send orders, and pay, they print the order, carry it next door with the payment forwarded by a handy direct debit, then carry the product when processed back to the shopfront which then sends model free of charge to me in Australia.

Order to Maelstrom or Wayland comes from within the EU and is delivered to an EU address.

Problem solved!

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:Perhaps Wayland or Maelstrom can have an 'independent' shopfront (next door) to whom we send orders, and pay, they print the order, carry it next door with the payment forwarded by a handy direct debit, then carry the product when processed back to the shopfront which then sends model free of charge to me in Australia.

Order to Maelstrom or Wayland comes from within the EU and is delivered to an EU address.

Problem solved!

Afterall, you arent just a pretty face who makes awesome sig banners...

Sparks wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:That's because their shipping starts at a flat rate, so one item orders are always going to be more expensive unless it's a big boxed item with different shipping.

There's a 'sweet spot' for ordering.

Doesn't change the fact that GWUK are nothing but an internet freeloader bringing down 'The Hobby'!

Question of clarification, did someone in Aus order from the GWUK site, pay the UK rate and get it shipped to them and have received it?

I ask because...can't believe I'm saying this... in GW's defense (just died a little inside) it could be that the online store hasn't been updated/isn't smart enough to say "Hey this person is an Aussie trying to get cheap stuff Stop him!" when you are just putting a cart together but when the guys in the UK shipping department see an Aus address some flags go up and order is canceled.

You should be able to order, but it balances out anyway because of the 100 pound shipping you have to pay (was trying to buy 3 ravagers).

Exaggerate much?

I just threw together a 3 Ravager order and the shipping was around the £45 mark. Now that’s not cheap, but it’s a damn sight better than £100 you’re claiming.

I cannot imagine that GW would expect to monitor other sites stopping overseas orders if indeed they couldn't do it to themselves as well.

That being said,
they haven't shown much sense in these decisions lately

kaisuki wrote:

Sparks wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:That's because their shipping starts at a flat rate, so one item orders are always going to be more expensive unless it's a big boxed item with different shipping.

There's a 'sweet spot' for ordering.

Doesn't change the fact that GWUK are nothing but an internet freeloader bringing down 'The Hobby'!

Question of clarification, did someone in Aus order from the GWUK site, pay the UK rate and get it shipped to them and have received it?

I ask because...can't believe I'm saying this... in GW's defense (just died a little inside) it could be that the online store hasn't been updated/isn't smart enough to say "Hey this person is an Aussie trying to get cheap stuff Stop him!" when you are just putting a cart together but when the guys in the UK shipping department see an Aus address some flags go up and order is canceled.

You should be able to order, but it balances out anyway because of the 100 pound shipping you have to pay (was trying to buy 3 ravagers).

H.B.M.C. wrote:Exaggerate much?

I just threw together a 3 Ravager order and the shipping was around the £45 mark. Now that’s not cheap, but it’s a damn sight better than £100 you’re claiming.

Mr H, I assume he was exaggerating in order to put across a point that GW will take compensation in the form of over-charging shipping to AUS... much like certain EvilBay traders...

Seems like US stores are now also forbidden to sell GW products internationally:

close313 over at Warseer wrote:Hey guys, has this been discussed before? I've recieved an E-Mail from Miniature Mkt this morning describing that GW told them a day ago that they can't ship outside US anymore.

Anyone knows if its the same for the rest of the US stores?

Gee, it's almost like they're not just trying to prevent Australians from buying in the form of the UK.

Crazy, right?

Hey, it worked for Japan: GW closing 71% of their stores right now. Australia comes next. Will be filed under "successfully cutting staff costs in one man stores" in the next business report.

insaniak wrote:You know, given GW's general inability to understand how these newfangled interweb tube things work, it wouldn't surprise me if they simply overlooked the fact that people in one country would go to another country's GW site to order product... After all, you select your own country when you try to enter the site through that bloody annoying portal page. So clearly that's where you're going to order from... right...?


Alternatively, and giving them some credit for not being complete idiots (while not saying anything about the honesty of their business practices) it's also possible that this whole international embargo thing was nothing more than a way for them to track where sales are actually going to. They can see from their webstore statistics where their own orders go, but can't track where independant stores' sales are going, and that would mess with their regional sales breakdowns. So the 'obvious' answer is to restrict everyone whose sales figures they can't access to selling in their own regions, with no need to limit their own stores.

Still hypocritical given the actual public reason for the change... but would at least make some sort of sense.

Yeah, that looks great. It would have been smarter to just ask those big stores they almost killed right? But well, that is GW, they dont need to be smart tog et money, they just need to release new shining kits every 3 months...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kroothawk wrote:Seems like US stores are now also forbidden to sell GW products internationally:

close313 over at Warseer wrote:Hey guys, has this been discussed before? I've recieved an E-Mail from Miniature Mkt this morning describing that GW told them a day ago that they can't ship outside US anymore.

Anyone knows if its the same for the rest of the US stores?

I am so greatly happy that i changed to Mantic right now... lets give those guys some hurras?

Have they tried to put a restriction on eBay yet? I know I ship crap to Australia all the time. As long as it is not big (above 13 ounces) the shipping cost is fairly decent. When you get to USPS parcel post that is when it gets expensive.

Fosner, i just fell bad buying products from a company that clearly dont want to sell those products to me... As my collection is not so big yet, i will just migrate to a company who want my money...

I feel really evil saying this, but...

The best thing about having relatives in the UK who visit frequently is that one can make orders from Maelstrom, have it shipped to the aforementioned relatives, then laugh evilly when they bring the order over on their next (frequent!) visit to Australia.

Bwahahaha...

Then you are very lucky that you have that option. Sadly, I should imagine the vast majority don't.

Fosner1703 wrote:Have they tried to put a restriction on eBay yet? I know I ship crap to Australia all the time. As long as it is not big (above 13 ounces) the shipping cost is fairly decent. When you get to USPS parcel post that is when it gets expensive.

There's no legal way for them to apply it to eBay. This only applies to stores that have a trade account with GW.

Brace for new developments.
I heard last week that GW is set to start opening '1 man stores' in new locations in Oz.
Similar to what they wre doing with smaller shops in the UK when I lived there in 1999 and 2000.

1 guy on staff at any time (2 school holidays) shop designed to introduce new people to the game, not to allow people to turn up and play or sit and paint etc.

What’s the sound? It sounds almost like something circling a drain...

Great, 40k from a vending machine. I love how GW stated publicly that internet retailers did nothing to support the hobby...hypocrite much?

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:Brace for new developments.
I heard last week that GW is set to start opening '1 man stores' in new locations in Oz.
Similar to what they wre doing with smaller shops in the UK when I lived there in 1999 and 2000.

1 guy on staff at any time (2 school holidays) shop designed to introduce new people to the game, not to allow people to turn up and play or sit and paint etc.

If you missed it already, GW has been doing this all over the globe for the past few years. They tried it in Japan, then they tried it in Europe and the UK, then Mr. Kirby's been trying it everywhere else. Every shop in the US (except for the tiny number of Battle Bunkers which are meant to be large, full-time stores) where they could renegotiate the lease to 35 hours per week they did so well more than a year ago and those shops have only 1 employee. However, they did not eliminate the playing and painting, just the staff and the hours that required having staff. If the store is large enough to support in-store activities, they still have them, but the staff was cut to one person and the hours cut so as to allow for only a single full-time staff member, saving GW a ton of money on staff and other costs associated with longer hours. In places where they could not renegotiate the lease to 35 hours right away they've been slowly doing that as they are able. Nearly every store in US and Canada is now a 1-man operation.

AesSedai wrote:Great, 40k from a vending machine. I love how GW stated publicly that internet retailers did nothing to support the hobby...hypocrite much?

The GW stores around me seem to have only 1 employee around at any time anyway.

The one man "demo store" concept seems to be what GW is embracing for their locations.

To be fair, my local store has at least 4 staff. It's a tiny store . They manage to fit three tables - two of which are allways together, a small painting station and a small counter for the register which is more like an island you can walk around to get to the paints, novels and stuff. It's the smallest GW store I've actually ever seen in Australia so far, and they have at least 4 staff, two of which are part time.

They get nothing like the quantity of business a store that small should get to require 2 full time and 2-3 part time staff. This is the kind of store I could easily see moving to a 1 man store, and I totally would not blame GW. Any other store that size selling a niche product has one staff. Hell, comic stores get more business and egenerally only have one or two staff.

Having more staff on for things like Thurday night, Saturday and school holidays makes sense, since there's a larger amount of people in the store, but other than that, all the staff do is sit there painting their armies and talking gak.

And its going to make thier stand on "supporting locals in aus" even more muddy than before.

Especially when Aussies can still order from GWUK directly at 1/2 the price (+shipping).

H.B.M.C. wrote:Especially when Aussies can still order from GWUK directly at 1/2 the price (+shipping).

Really? It still possible to do that?

Still... with GW's track record with the horror that is T3|-| 1|\|T3RB|_4G, maybe - just maybe - they just don't realize that people can still do that?

It's that, or it's just a really, really hypocritical move.

I was going to say they're either hypocrites, or clueless, but I don't quite think we can rule out the possibility that it's both.

RatBot wrote:I was going to say they're either hypocrites, or clueless, but I don't quite think we can rule out the possibility that it's both.

And, of course, that requires an unnecessary amount of time to find the right portmanteau to desribe them.

I, personally, like Cluecrites, or Hypocress.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Especially when Aussies can still order from GWUK directly at 1/2 the price (+shipping).

You what? How!?!

Brunius wrote:You what? How!?!

When you go to the GW website, select UK from either the entry page or the country drop-down on the bottom of each page. That will display the UK website, with UK prices.

...so if you're in Australia you can order directly from the UK site and they'll still ship it to you? Have you actually tried that H.B.M.C.?

H.B.M.C wrote

Especially when Aussies can still order from GWUK directly at 1/2 the price (+shipping).

I don't know about Auz, but I just tried it for Japan. It appeared to work until the final confirmation where and 80 GBP order turned into this gak:

Merchandise Total:
£160.00
Standard Shipping:
£40.00
Sales Tax:
£0.00
Order Total:
£200.00


So yeah, unlikely.

Sidstyler wrote:...so if you're in Australia you can order directly from the UK site and they'll still ship it to you? Have you actually tried that H.B.M.C.?

Yes a friend did it as a test.

Got it sent from GK UK to a mail forwarder. Then got it sent on to aus, about a 25% saving over getting it from GWAU

Its the standard GW frieght from UK to aus thats the killer.

Feight forwarder isn't quite the same...

Sidstyler wrote:...so if you're in Australia you can order directly from the UK site and they'll still ship it to you? Have you actually tried that H.B.M.C.?

Friend of mine did an order. It showed up without an issue. Difference (factoring in shipping) was AUD$100 off the standard GWOZ price.

Hey guys, would you be so kind as to recommend a freight forwarder. I'm tired of waiting for Wayland to get their RoW going. Which one did your friend use?

AesSedai wrote:Hey guys, would you be so kind as to recommend a freight forwarder. I'm tired of waiting for Wayland to get their RoW going. Which one did your friend use?

We were discussing 2, one was http://www.alfasent.co.uk cant remember what the other one was. The other option was getting it through an american mail forwarder like www.shipito.com. Think the costing works out around the same price GWUS an GWUK

insaniak wrote:

Brunius wrote:You what? How!?!

When you go to the GW website, select UK from either the entry page or the country drop-down on the bottom of each page. That will display the UK website, with UK prices.

Only works if you have never been on the website before (or have cookies disabled). Otherwise you have to delete the www.gamesworkshop.com cookie first to get to the country select page.

No you don't. You just select it from the menu at the bottom.

Out of interest are there not Austrailian discounters that do 25% discounts?

Seems you might get your order quicker and without the potential hassle?

Well, that's what Gw stopped a while ago...

25% off AUS price /= 25% off UK price

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:Brace for new developments.
I heard last week that GW is set to start opening '1 man stores' in new locations in Oz.
Similar to what they wre doing with smaller shops in the UK when I lived there in 1999 and 2000.

1 guy on staff at any time (2 school holidays) shop designed to introduce new people to the game, not to allow people to turn up and play or sit and paint etc.

You might've missed it, but stores that were opened in NSW last year or so apparentlly already had this in effect.
Im suprised they already haven't implemented it here in force to be honest, considering they obssessed with cost cutting measures

One man stores? I gather that GW then are unconcerned about shoplifting losses? After all, a 1 man store and a hundred kids is a shoplifters mecca.

A store with a hundred kids in it is GWs Mecca. Shoplifting is written off easily enough, a few pounds of kits going missing is chaeper than redshirt #2, cameras are there for the big stuff. Economics in action.

notprop wrote:A store with a hundred kids in it is GWs Mecca. Shoplifting is written off easily enough, a few pounds of kits going missing is chaeper than redshirt #2, cameras are there for the big stuff. Economics in action.

Which is a sad indictment of society as a whole, that stealing stuff can be "written off". I dunno about anywhere else, but the Cameras in our local GW weren't even real for years, and certain of our number used to "steal" boxed games and stand outside waving them through the window just to catch out the "ever vigilant" staff. And that was with three or four staff. We also used to see the ropey smack-heads in the pub later on, selling on stolen box sets.. dozens of them at a time.

"Writing off" shoplifted materials is one of the reasons why everyone gets to pay just a little bit more for their goods. Sad really.

Why would they do that?

Like an Ork Warboss being stalked by a vindacre assassin, or a high elf noble about to charge into a unit of dark elf spearmen concealing an assassin, I fear GW's days are numbered...

This is honestly a stupid move. I don't know much about economics and all that stuff, but GW must gain a lot of money from selling to independent retailers. And, if this change does go ahead, it won't be worth independent retailers buying off GW, because they won't be able to sell enough. This'll probably make them reduce, if not stop, orders from GW, which is gonna hit GW BAD.

I see nothing wrong with independent retailers doing what they do, and how this change will help AT ALL!

I have no idea what GW are playing at...

Don´t worry neither does GW.

M.

Either way, people will still buy their products. so they dont care, people complaining in this thread will probably stiill buy them, no matter how hard GWS feth you.

Stop supporting them and maybe they will open their eyes?

im really fethed off with GWS, this is uuter crap what they are doing to AUS

people will still buy their products. so they dont care,

People do care whether they are still buying them or not.

I know a lot of long-time GW fans like myself who never used to think much about what or how much they bought who are suddenly buying a lot less and I'm also finding myself for the first time in 2 decades being much more careful about what I buy from them, especially at full price new in store. They really have pushed the outer limits of what is reasonable the past couple years more than ever, especially on certain items and since May 28 it's been a different game for many customers.

Eldar Own wrote:Like an Ork Warboss being stalked by a vindacre assassin, or a high elf noble about to charge into a unit of dark elf spearmen concealing an assassin, I fear GW's days are numbered...

This is honestly a stupid move. I don't know much about economics and all that stuff, but GW must gain a lot of money from selling to independent retailers. And, if this change does go ahead, it won't be worth independent retailers buying off GW, because they won't be able to sell enough. This'll probably make them reduce, if not stop, orders from GW, which is gonna hit GW BAD.

I see nothing wrong with independent retailers doing what they do, and how this change will help AT ALL!

I have no idea what GW are playing at...

yeah. GW's days have been numbered since at least 1993.

Any day now, that house of cards is all going to come crashing down. Any day now. Everyone that works for GW will be out of a job, and everyone that plays Warhammer will be left holding the bag of a dead game.

Any day now, if you just hope for it a little harder, pray for it a little more every night when you go to bed.

All crashing down.

Then you'll dance in the street.

rattman wrote:

Sidstyler wrote:...so if you're in Australia you can order directly from the UK site and they'll still ship it to you? Have you actually tried that H.B.M.C.?

Yes a friend did it as a test.

Got it sent from GK UK to a mail forwarder. Then got it sent on to aus, about a 25% saving over getting it from GWAU

Its the standard GW frieght from UK to aus thats the killer.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Feight forwarder isn't quite the same...

Sidstyler wrote:...so if you're in Australia you can order directly from the UK site and they'll still ship it to you? Have you actually tried that H.B.M.C.?

Friend of mine did an order. It showed up without an issue. Difference (factoring in shipping) was AUD$100 off the standard GWOZ price.

rattman wrote:

AesSedai wrote:Hey guys, would you be so kind as to recommend a freight forwarder. I'm tired of waiting for Wayland to get their RoW going. Which one did your friend use?

We were discussing 2, one was http://www.alfasent.co.uk cant remember what the other one was. The other option was getting it through an american mail forwarder like www.shipito.com. Think the costing works out around the same price GWUS an GWUK

If you go to the trouble of buying from the UK, why not buy from a UK local discounter, have it shipped via freight forwarder and mitigate some of the shipping by doing so?

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:Brace for new developments.
I heard last week that GW is set to start opening '1 man stores' in new locations in Oz.
Similar to what they wre doing with smaller shops in the UK when I lived there in 1999 and 2000.

1 guy on staff at any time (2 school holidays) shop designed to introduce new people to the game, not to allow people to turn up and play or sit and paint etc.

They've been doing that for years. Melbourne CBD started off as a decent sized store, they reopened a few years later in the same arcade as a huge store that was actually pretty great - I never played there buy bought stuff there to support them as well as the other FLGS, and got to know some of the staff. They then moved to Melbourne Central (much bigger mall) for a few years with a smaller but still decent store. Last time I was in town, the shop was a small place hidden away from the real retail area of the city where you have to seek out the place. They also only had 1 staff member in there. They may have 2 in there at times, I don't know, but the few times I've gone through they've only had 1 in there.


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Eldar Own wrote:
This is honestly a stupid move. I don't know much about economics and all that stuff, but GW must gain a lot of money from selling to independent retailers. And, if this change does go ahead, it won't be worth independent retailers buying off GW, because they won't be able to sell enough. This'll probably make them reduce, if not stop, orders from GW, which is gonna hit GW BAD.

The way I see it is with the market contracting, they're looking at alternative ways to maintain their profits. They've always changed up their blisters and boxes sets to give you "less for more". In the beginning RT days when I started playing you used to get 5 metal models in a blister of things like IG and Eldar and Elves for AU$10. 4 models for larger things like SM and Orcs. $45 for a box with 3 Rhino kits in them. Over the years that all changed. The blisters slowly grew in price (some of that is inflation) and over time had fewer figures in them (and some of that is not). More recent stuff like the WFB Orc Boys box set going from 19 figures to 10 or the changes from the old Beastman Herd box being split into 2 more expensive Gor and Ungor boxes last year are just the latest incarnation of this.

What they do is slowly give you less for more in these things. Plastic was cheaper than metal, and for awhile the plastic figures were cheaper then the metals they replaced. Then the same price, now they are often more. Now you get fewer plastic figures for more money, so you need to buy 2 "regiment" boxes to get the unit. Same deal with Finecast. Just the same, they're squeezing their retail costs on things like staff, lease hours, etc.

With the changes to previews and shipping times, they're trying to encourage those people who live in real countries to buy their product direct from their GW stores. With the changes to indy shipping to those of us who live in "third-world" countries like Australia and Japan, they're again trying to encourage us to buy from our local GW stores, so again, they make more from less.

They have been slowly squeezing for years. Will this be the point where they can get no more blood from a turnip? Who knows?
The average GW gamer is supposed to be about 13 years old and only last for about 3-4 years until they discover girls. Old grognards like most of us they know will generally stick around forever in one form or another.

Over 10 years ago I heard the following from a friend who worked in GWAUHQ - older gamers (18yo+) tend to have a gaming budget. Whether it's $20 a week or $50 a week or whatever. They will spend that much. When they raised the prices, these people still spent the same amount - they still spent their budget. They got less, but they still spent their $20 or $50 or $100 or whatever. They might have pissed and moaned a lot, but they still spent their money every week. Over time they leave/stop playing/die but there's always enough new ones to maintain that aspect of the market. The kids however come in, buy a boxed game, buy an army box or two, a few blisters/vehicles/other boxed sets - all in a short time. They then put them in the back of a cupboard when they hit 16 and discover girls, but by then there's another 13 year old kid who has started their first Ultramarine army.

After reading this thread i took the chance to ask a GW employee about the whole situation .He seemed to get really edgy about it but explained that GW where being Taxed for other companies sending their products to australia and that australias GW prices are so high due to the luxuary goods tax also he said that this wasnt a new decision and that it was laid out in the agreements from the very start.

Im not defending GW but i wanted to post what i heard.I dont know if its true or just some BS he made up to defend GW.
Crux

CRUX wrote:He seemed to get really edgy about it but explained that GW where being Taxed for other companies sending their products to australia

This is nonsense. The receiver pays tax (where applicable) for products coming into the country. They don't tax the original maker of the product.

... and that australias GW prices are so high due to the luxuary goods tax

A 10% GST doesn't explain prices being double what they are in the UK... particularly when the UK's comparable tax is almost double that. So if that's the problem, GW OZ's prices should be 8% lower than the UK, to make up for the difference between Oz's GST and the UK's VAT.

also he said that this wasnt a new decision and that it was laid out in the agreements from the very start.

Which is also clearly nonsense. There has never previously been any prohibition on GW stockists selling overseas.

CRUX wrote:After reading this thread i took the chance to ask a GW employee about the whole situation .He seemed to get really edgy about it but explained that GW where being Taxed for other companies sending their products to australia and that australias GW prices are so high due to the luxuary goods tax also he said that this wasnt a new decision and that it was laid out in the agreements from the very start.

Im not defending GW but i wanted to post what i heard.I dont know if its true or just some BS he made up to defend GW.
Crux

He's a lying sack of gak. The luxury goods tax he refers to doesn't exist, and hasn't for a decade. The tax being charged to GW doesn't exist: exports are actually 16.7% cheaper (since the government doesn't collect VAT on exports). The import levy on scale models is 0%.

I assumed he was talking trash he was a bit of a tw*t. I only posted it to show what GW staff where saying on the matter like i said before i dont support games workshop on this.

Crux

AlexHolker wrote:He's a lying sack of gak.

That's a little strong. It's entirely possible it's just what he's been told to say to anyone asking about it, and he really doesn't know any better.

insaniak wrote:

AlexHolker wrote:He's a lying sack of gak.

That's a little strong. It's entirely possible it's just what he's been told to say to anyone asking about it, and he really doesn't know any better.

Very good chance he doesn't have a clue, and was just guessing. GW's not going to send out notices on stuff like this to redshirts. It's silly to expect an answer out of them, and if they were briefed, you'd get the same answer as the higher ups are putting out.

Dudes, this is about to get a whole lot worse. The next prong in the attack, I'm now hearing that GW is making moves to discontinue discount online mail order retailers completely.

They might run into some legal problems there.

"Sell within this region or we won't sell you stock" is one thing. "Sell at this price and no lower" is another altogether.

Unless they're simply planning on not allowing any retailer to sell their stock if they have an online store (which might bring legal issues) or simply stop selling to non-GW retail outlets that have any online presence at all (which would be the financial equivalent of cloning yourself just to have your clone rape you).

filbert wrote:Surely even GW wouldn't countenance such a move...

Never underestimate the stupidity of large organizations.

But I don't think they would do that, that would just be throwing away potential income.

But if true, luckly I live in Canada lol