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Post by: Lord Tarkin
Peregrine wrote: Lord Tarkin wrote:So, in Peregrines opinion, IG and SM shouldn't exist, just use orbital bombs.
Ah yes, another constructive post from you. Perhaps instead of posting nonsense like this you could read my previous post where I explained why IG are useful even though orbital bombardment exists? Here, I'll even re-post it for you:
Because the IG are able to hold an objective, not just kill everything in the general area. That's something space marines can't do effectively because of their ridiculously limited numbers. If GW had a better sense of scale then this might be different, but we're stuck with marine numbers in the "less than one marine per planet" range which means that even a single tactical squad is an almost-priceless asset that most commanders can only dream of having. And that single tactical squad has no hope of holding ground for very long, simply because they will run out of ammunition before the enemy runs out of troops to send against them, and space marines die very quickly when the enemy is allowed to concentrate a dozen krak missiles or lascannons on every marine.
In short, marines depend on smashing something and getting out before they get overwhelmed by sheer numbers. IG don't.
Okay, so as you have explained marines, how are they not able to take out a single man and leave? Marines would be perfect for that, no need for pointless orbital bombs.
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Post by: Peregrine
Lord Tarkin wrote:Okay, so as you have explained marines, how are they not able to take out a single man and leave?
They're capable of it, just like the entire US army would be capable of tracking and killing a single bank robber. That doesn't mean that they're an efficient use of resources. You don't need to send priceless space marines for such a minor task when you have much cheaper weapons that can do the job.
Marines would be perfect for that, no need for pointless orbital bombs.
The orbital bomb isn't pointless. It's much cheaper than the marines, can wait patiently as long as it takes before it is used, and will kill everything in the xenos/heretic hospital (mentioned in the original scenario) as it destroys the command bunker. The orbital bombardment is only pointless if you assume that we're operating under real-world rules where civilian casualties are to be avoided at all costs, instead of a nice bonus. You don't need a precision strike that only kills the commander when everything in a 50-mile radius is going to be killed anyway once you win the war.
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Post by: Mr Morden
Peregrine wrote: Lord Tarkin wrote:Okay, so as you have explained marines, how are they not able to take out a single man and leave?
They're capable of it, just like the entire US army would be capable of tracking and killing a single bank robber. That doesn't mean that they're an efficient use of resources. You don't need to send priceless space marines for such a minor task when you have much cheaper weapons that can do the job.
Marines would be perfect for that, no need for pointless orbital bombs.
The orbital bomb isn't pointless. It's much cheaper than the marines, can wait patiently as long as it takes before it is used, and will kill everything in the xenos/heretic hospital (mentioned in the original scenario) as it destroys the command bunker. The orbital bombardment is only pointless if you assume that we're operating under real-world rules where civilian casualties are to be avoided at all costs, instead of a nice bonus. You don't need a precision strike that only kills the commander when everything in a 50-mile radius is going to be killed anyway once you win the war.
The only other issue with Orbital or other bombing is that you don't have confirmation of the kill - which the Astartes can provide......which may be essential / priority
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Post by: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl
So, Astartes are just way less efficient assassins?
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Post by: Ashiraya
One major problem with orbital bombardment is collateral damage. Civilian casualties may not matter but manufactorums and all kinds if structures and tech-relics are literally irreplaceable in the technologically stagnant Imperium. If you drop a few megaton bombs on the Dark Eldar running around in there, you may kill them, but you are also destroying invaluable technology.
And what if there's orbital cannons preventing anything bigger than a Thunderhawk getting close?
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Post by: The Home Nuggeteer
Ashiraya wrote:One major problem with orbital bombardment is collateral damage. Civilian casualties may not matter but manufactorums and all kinds if structures and tech-relics are literally irreplaceable in the technologically stagnant Imperium. If you drop a few megaton bombs on the Dark Eldar running around in there, you may kill them, but you are also destroying invaluable technology.
And what if there's orbital cannons preventing anything bigger than a Thunderhawk getting close?
orbital, those cannons cant reach whatever is pooping out the bomb. Automatically Appended Next Post: if the defense of space marines is assassination then they are redundant.
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Post by: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl
Redundant, and sub par.
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Post by: Envihon
So I am going to bring in to this argument, the source that originated power armor for the reason of why Space Marines exist: Starship Troopers. This is where we see Power Armor come in force in the sci-fi scene and I think Robert Heinlein did the best at showing what a power armored infantry is the best at in Starship Troopers and that is as people have been pointing out precise strikes where orbital bombardments would fail. Heinlein brings up this point as Rico explains why the Navy just didn't pummel planets into hell and that was because that would utterly destroy the purpose of using a planet for it's resources and bring the populace there into compliance. For that, ground troops, especially those in power armor can shock and awe a populace into compliance as well as perform surgical strikes cannons can't touch.
Now let us look at the original purpose of Space Marines in the Great Crusade: they were there to unite humanity under one banner to have a galaxy spanning Imperium of Man so orbital bombardments would of been impractical in most cases since the Imperium wasn't trying to kill all of the non-compliant planets but bring them into compliance and fealty of the Imperium who to better do this than power armored super humans to shock and awe a populace into realizing they were out matched. To this, the Space Marine Legions were highly effective at doing and thus they could bring planets into the Imperium with their resources intact.
So the Horus Heresy happens and this plan is utterly screwed but they are still useful since CSM tears through AM like they were paper, sometimes you still have to fight fire with fire send in SM. An Ork Warboss is inciting another WAAAGH! and to send in a vulnerable assassin would be impractical so send in SM to cut off the head and stop the WAAAGH! because they can be dropped in the heart and know they will survive. Still want to save a planet even with a Chaos incursion? Have AM bombard a fortified position while sending in a surgical strike of SM to push from the inside out, a job regular humans more than likely wouldn't be able to do without drop pods and deep strike.
They are conditioned to be a special strike force to seize specific strategic assets that regular troops wouldn't be able to do as quickly or efficiently, not fight a prolonged war. Even in modern military strategy this is seen, it is the reason why we have special forces vs. regular troops and in most of the fluff this is how the SM are used as well. You hear about the AM holding a position while the SM go in to get it but what makes more of an exciting story? The entrenched warfare or the elite force that seized a specific tactical objective that broke the enemy?
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Post by: Ultramarine vet
I wouldn't use an orbital bomb or terminators to take out 1 enemy commander. I would send in some scouts with sniper rifles. In the Ultramarine's case, Telion and a squad of scout snipers. 1 shot....case closed. Scouts excel at assassination. There is no reason to send in terminators or use orbital bombs. That's just the best way in my honest opinion.
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Post by: jakejackjake
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
No. In the Witch Hunter codex, it is explicitly stated as providing the same level of protection.
Note that jakejackjake was speaking specifically about protection.
1.) The life support systems offer protection as well. So while a SoB may be able to take an equal amount of shells to her unexposed areas or armored areas, which as a side note they tend to have less of their body armored so again protected less, they are protected less against every single thing besides blunt force.
2.) this is the background section where we discuss fluff and not armor saves.
A marine is worth more than any other imperial soldier besides custodes which are just better versions of the same thing.
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Post by: Gogsnik
Seems like a perfectly apt response to those ridiculous straw-man arguments.
Peregrine wrote:If all you need to do is kill something then just nuke it from orbit.
I don't know if you are wilfully obtuse but you seem to have missed the point several times which is ironic since you've already said this:
...marines depend on smashing something and getting out before they get overwhelmed by sheer numbers.
If you don't just need to kill something then you need a boots on the ground approach in which case, as you've already pointed out, Marines smash their way in, secure their target and then withdraw.
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Post by: jakejackjake
Because if every engagement ended with lance strikes from space the setting would suck and have less chain weapons.
That's why the space marines exist.
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Post by: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl
Well, it offers life support. But the protection level is the same. It is written fairly square in the book!
They have their whole body armored. Except sometime the head when they remove the helmet, but do marines not do that all the time too?
jakejackjake wrote:2.) this is the background section where we discuss fluff and not armor saves.
That is what I am doing, I am saying fluffwise the Sisters of Battle armor provides the same level of protection than the Astartes power armor because the fluff from the codex says that it is so in the fluff.
jakejackjake wrote:A marine is worth more than any other imperial soldier besides custodes which are just better versions of the same thing.
Only if you do not count stuff like, say, assassins as soldiers. Because they sure are worth much, much more. Same for good AM generals. Those are worth so much more than a tactical marines.
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Post by: Psienesis
jakejackjake wrote: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
No. In the Witch Hunter codex, it is explicitly stated as providing the same level of protection.
Note that jakejackjake was speaking specifically about protection.
1.) The life support systems offer protection as well. So while a SoB may be able to take an equal amount of shells to her unexposed areas or armored areas, which as a side note they tend to have less of their body armored so again protected less, they are protected less against every single thing besides blunt force.
2.) this is the background section where we discuss fluff and not armor saves.
A marine is worth more than any other imperial soldier besides custodes which are just better versions of the same thing.
Sisters' PA is equally protective as a Space Marine's PA, in GW's own words, as presented in Codex: Witch-Hunters and other publications. What it lacks is the full neural interaction between the human body and the armor that the Black Carapace provides, which also offers further strength-enhancing bonuses. The Sisters lack these and some of the specialized sub-systems of the armor... but it stops bullets just as well, it offers full environmental sealing as well, and allows them to operate in a vacuum.
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Post by: BrotherOfBone
In this imaginary situation where a commander would need to be assassinated they would simply send, you guessed it: An assassin. There are literally billions of them in the Imperium, whether they be Imperial assassins or not, an Imperial commander could literally request an assassin and have him brought to him, and have the enemy commander neutralised.
Why send Telion and a squad of Scouts (whose actual purpose is recon and skirmishing attacks to destabilise the enemy, not assassination) when you can send an assassin who will do the job better?
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Post by: Psienesis
The ultimate point being, I think, is that the argument against the Space Marines suggests that there are too few of them, and at too great a cost, to be effective in defending something the size of the Imperium.
In reality or, rather, if we were to apply real-world logistics to the question, this is undeniably true. There are too few Space Marines spread far too thinly across the galaxy to accomplish anything of overall worth or note. Nothing the Space Marines do in this scenario cannot be accomplished by the Imperial Guard and/or the Imperial Navy, and those two organizations can accomplish more than the Space Marines can.
However, 40K doesn't run on real-world logistics. The Space Marines are effective because we are told they are effective by the studio, and that is where it ends.
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Post by: Veteran Sergeant
Psienesis wrote:Sisters' PA is equally protective as a Space Marine's PA, in GW's own words, as presented in Codex: Witch-Hunters and other publications.
Which "other publications"? And nowhere is the language "equal" in Witch Hunters, it is "same degree of protection. When the term "degree" is used to define things, it refers to broad categories, not specific measurements (see examples: here, here, and here. A "degree of protection" is a range, not a specific value. So power armor all offers the same "degree of protection" that is higher than carapace, but lower than Terminator and other heavier armors.
I looked it up once, and that's the only source I found that used terminology to suggest anything close to equivalency, and again that's only via a selective interpretation, since the book does not use any kind of explicit language. I mean, I'm more than happy to be wrong, but I think this "other publications" isn't the case. Any time that power armor for unaugmented humans, including Sisters, is brought up in alternate publications, it's certainly comparable and superior to lesser armors like Carapace, but Marine armor is always statted superior. I mean, every rule system that has expanded beyond a D6 save system has given bonuses to Marine armor above and beyond the stats for "regular" power armor, and none of them have given equivalent bonuses to Sisters armor.
Which isn't really a surprise. Space Marines are bigger and can carry more plating. It's just common sense that between two mass-produced armor types (Marine power armor and Sister power armor) that the larger, less weight sensitive system will be outfitted with more plating.
This whole argument gets kind of pathetic, to be honest. Space Marines are biologically engineered transhuman warriors, designed specifically for the most harsh of combat. They're bigger, stronger, faster, and more durable than regular human beings, and they've been designed specifically to interact with powered armor suits that have also been specifically designed around their enhanced capabilities. Sisters of Battle are just extensively brainwashed religious fanatics with a good physical training program and a deep-pockets sponsor. I mean, it's not even like being "not as good as Space Marines" is even a strike against them. That's basically everybody.
We're down to one book's ambiguous language ("same degree of protection") versus at least three or four other books' specific language ("An additional three points of armor", etc). And I know it was a Sisters player who has championed the idea of the "everything is canon" on this forum, and that makes sense since it basically facilitates her opinion nicely, lol. And individual players are obviously allowed to decide which "head canon" to follow. But if we're going to discuss this topic as a whole, then we should be doing it with regards to all of the material at hand, not just one small portion of it.
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Post by: Gogsnik
Veteran Sergeant wrote:...every rule system that has expanded beyond a D6 save system has given bonuses to Marine armor above and beyond the stats for "regular" power armor, and none of them have given equivalent bonuses to Sisters armor.
Pretty much this.
Just to add some sources:
It provides the same degree of armoured protection, yet must forego the most advanced life-support systems and strength enhancing abilities used by the Space Marines, as the Sisters of Battle are not implanted with the Black Carapace...
Codex: Witch Hunters page 19
...this lighter power armour provides excellent protection and increased strength...
Dark Heresy: Blood of Martyrs page 118
...Adeptus Astartes patterns [are] the pinnacle of power armour technology...
Deathwatch page 160
Space Marines are the most notable users of power armour, along with Inquisitorial agents and the Adeptus Sororitas. The latter users lack the special Black Carapace implanted in Space Marines, allowing the armour to fully meld with the user. As such, many of the strength augmenting and advanced support systems are not possible and are not installed in these lighter suits.
Rogue Trader (FFG) page 139
Then you have the stats:
Blood of Martyrs Sororitas Power Armour - AP7 (8 on body) +10 Strength, +5BS (if issued with a helmet), rebreather, comm-link, heavy weapons treated as braced.
Deathwatch Astartes Power Armour - AP8 (10 on body), +20 Strength, Auto-Senses, Osmotic Gill, Bio-Monitor and Injectors, Vox Link, Magnetized Boot Soles, Nutrient Recycling, Recoil Suppression, Giant Among Men (however, the Black Carapace provides sufficient 'grace' with using the armour that enemies don't get a bonus to hit a Marine), Poor Manual Dexterity.
Inquisitor Power Armour - AP10 for regular PA with no other equipment as available to Inquisitors and the Adepta Sororitas (see Exterminatus #8). AP10 plus several sections reinforced with 3 points of Ablative Armour for the Astartes with a number of items of extra equipment as standard.
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Post by: Crimson
I would not use FFG games as a hard canon source, they're not even a part of GW like BL, and their take on fluff deviates quite a bit on GW fluff. They're about on the level of Dawn of War and other such licensed games.
That being said, it is completely possible, that Astartes' armour offers a tiny bit better protection than lighter power armours worn by normal humans such as Inquisitors and Sororitas. But does this really matter?
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Post by: Psienesis
You do know that FFG turns Sisters into Space Witches and Space Marines into "Movie Marines", where any 5 Space Marines, armed with the standard bolter, can shoot a tank, or any Monstrous Creature, or horde of enemies, apart inside of five rounds without losing a Wound, right?
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Post by: Lord Tarkin
BrotherOfBone wrote:In this imaginary situation where a commander would need to be assassinated they would simply send, you guessed it: An assassin. There are literally billions of them in the Imperium, whether they be Imperial assassins or not, an Imperial commander could literally request an assassin and have him brought to him, and have the enemy commander neutralised.
Why send Telion and a squad of Scouts (whose actual purpose is recon and skirmishing attacks to destabilise the enemy, not assassination) when you can send an assassin who will do the job better?
True, but its not like Telion cant do it. Telion is responsible for sniping two Tau commanders with two well placed bolt shots and practically ending the conflict before it truly started.
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Post by: Ultramarine vet
BrotherOfBone wrote:In this imaginary situation where a commander would need to be assassinated they would simply send, you guessed it: An assassin. There are literally billions of them in the Imperium, whether they be Imperial assassins or not, an Imperial commander could literally request an assassin and have him brought to him, and have the enemy commander neutralised. Why send Telion and a squad of Scouts (whose actual purpose is recon and skirmishing attacks to destabilise the enemy, not assassination) when you can send an assassin who will do the job better? ......what? Scouts, especially Telion, excel at taking out enemy commanders. A human assassin does not do a better job than a Space Marine Scout. Lol. Lord Tarkin speaks true, its in the Space Marines codex.
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Post by: Unit1126PLL
Ultramarine vet wrote: BrotherOfBone wrote:In this imaginary situation where a commander would need to be assassinated they would simply send, you guessed it: An assassin. There are literally billions of them in the Imperium, whether they be Imperial assassins or not, an Imperial commander could literally request an assassin and have him brought to him, and have the enemy commander neutralised. Why send Telion and a squad of Scouts (whose actual purpose is recon and skirmishing attacks to destabilise the enemy, not assassination) when you can send an assassin who will do the job better? ......what? Scouts, especially Telion, excel at taking out enemy commanders. A human assassin does not do a better job than a Space Marine Scout. Lol. Lord Tarkin speaks true, its in the Space Marines codex. Did you just say a human assassin does not do a better job than a SM Scout? Some Imperial organizations disagree.
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Post by: Gogsnik
Psienesis wrote:You do know that FFG turns Sisters into Space Witches and Space Marines into "Movie Marines", where any 5 Space Marines, armed with the standard bolter, can shoot a tank, or any Monstrous Creature, or horde of enemies, apart inside of five rounds without losing a Wound, right?
I'm just providing sources and examples so that people can see what these publications actually say and how they then translate that background into stats. If people then choose to dismiss those sources then that is up to them but they can do so properly informed.
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Post by: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl
That does not make sense. The defining characteristic of a power armor is that the armor carry itself. Else you would get penalties to strength rather than bonus to strength when wearing an extremely heavy armor, because that would be exhausting and impairs your movement a lot.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:They're bigger, stronger, faster, and more durable than regular human beings, and they've been designed specifically to interact with powered armor suits that have also been specifically designed around their enhanced capabilities.
Hence why they have all the extra gimmicks that do not work on Sisters power armor. Nobody is denying that.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:We're down to one book's ambiguous language ("same degree of protection") versus at least three or four other books' specific language ("An additional three points of armor", etc).
If I recall correctly, someone in this section mentioned how PC astartes power armor and NPC astartes power armor have different stats in one RPG from FFG. If that is confirmed, I would rather focus on fluff than on FFG crunch.
Gogsnik wrote:Codex: Witch Hunters page 19
...this lighter power armour provides excellent protection and increased strength...
Dark Heresy: Blood of Martyrs page 118
...Adeptus Astartes patterns [are] the pinnacle of power armour technology...
Deathwatch page 160
Space Marines are the most notable users of power armour, along with Inquisitorial agents and the Adeptus Sororitas. The latter users lack the special Black Carapace implanted in Space Marines, allowing the armour to fully meld with the user. As such, many of the strength augmenting and advanced support systems are not possible and are not installed in these lighter suits.
Rogue Trader (FFG) page 139
I am going to ask, how does any of those quotes run contrary to this statement:
“Sororitas power armor provide the same protection as Astartes power armor, but does not have all the gimmicks”?
The first quote says the armor provide excellent protection, and no comparison is made. The second one says the astartes involve more technology, which refers to the additional gimmicks imo, the third one says that the Sororitas power armor does not have the gimmicks because no black carapace to interface with the armor.
They seem to all agree with me. So, there is still the crunch. Can someone confirm the PC vs NPC astartes power armor difference? Because if that is true, this crunch is not worth much…
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Post by: Psienesis
The protective qualities in FFG's games change between one game and the next, and the specific pattern of PA in question. Black Crusade PA is the same AP as Deathwatch PA, but has different options, and most of its sub-systems don't work (because all CSM PA is broken somehow, and CSM don't have any means to fix it, of course...).
Bolters do various damage from one game to the next, too, and gain or lose various Weapon Qualities, depending on which book you're reading. Automatically Appended Next Post: A human assassin does not do a better job than a Space Marine Scout. Lol.
The Vindicare Temple would like a word.
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Post by: Ashiraya
I still think the Space Marines should use some kind of recon/stealth/sniper unit that consists of experienced soldiers, not recruits (Well... Scouts are pretty badass but they are still recruits in comparison to the others).
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Post by: Psienesis
Scouts are likely to be more-experienced in combat than the vast majority of Guardsmen, to be fair.
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Post by: Ashiraya
Still, the potential gain of a veteran stealth unit is considerable. In fact, I'd argue that veterancy is more important for subtle missions. You can be the most experienced soldier in the Imperium but that won't let you eat more bullets. On the other hand, it can be very helpful for avoiding detection and infiltrating silently, et cetera.
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Post by: Psienesis
For that kind of operation, there are either specialist Chapters that do that sort of thing, or other Imperial organizations that can perform the role and then provide intel to the Space Marines (Tanith First-And-Only, Vindicare, various DCA, etc.).
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Post by: Hashbeth
Speed.
Space Marines function much faster than imperial armies. For times of material expansion, a space marine army is much more efficient at moving into an area, weakening it sufficiently, and then moving on. They excel at this purpose.
Imagine them more like a mobile delta-force-esque group. The reliability they add (and expertise) makes them worthwhile.
The fact that the astra militarum is so easily trained, unspecialized, and unaugmented makes them less efficient at adapting to certain enemies, or handling situations efficiently. Though the astra militarum can waste 10,000,000 men on taking an entrenched position, it is less efficient than sending half a space marine chapter to do the same (esp. if they are experts in siege warfare).
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Post by: Ashiraya
It is true that speed is another advantage over the navy. The Imperial Navy is tied down by a lot of Administratum paperwork. Astartes can happily ignore the red tape and do the mission instead.
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Post by: Peregrine
Hashbeth wrote:Speed.Space Marines function much faster than imperial armies. For times of material expansion, a space marine army is much more efficient at moving into an area, weakening it sufficiently, and then moving on. They excel at this purpose.
You know what also excels at this purpose? Artillery. If you just want to kill everything in an area and move on then you don't want marines, you want artillery/orbital bombardments/etc.
Though the astra militarum can waste 10,000,000 men on taking an entrenched position, it is less efficient than sending half a space marine chapter to do the same (esp. if they are experts in siege warfare).
Actually it isn't. Space marines are so rare and valuable that it's probably better to sacrifice those 10 million guardsmen than to risk losing even a single marine. And a commander will find it much easier to obtain another 10 million guardsmen to replace them than to get a chapter to send half of its forces. Automatically Appended Next Post: Ashiraya wrote:It is true that speed is another advantage over the navy. The Imperial Navy is tied down by a lot of Administratum paperwork. Astartes can happily ignore the red tape and do the mission instead.
That's not an argument for making space marines, it's an argument for getting rid of the idiotic red tape.
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Post by: Ashiraya
Peregrine wrote:
You know what also excels at this purpose? Artillery. If you just want to kill everything in an area and move on then you don't want marines, you want artillery/orbital bombardments/etc.
Don't forget the earlier note about collateral damage to structures and so on. It may not be a common situation but it does exist.
That's not an argument for making space marines, it's an argument for getting rid of the idiotic red tape.
Yes, but the Imperium is not reasonable, so they bypass the red tape with super-soldiers instead.
How grimdark.
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Post by: Peregrine
Gogsnik wrote:If you don't just need to kill something then you need a boots on the ground approach in which case, as you've already pointed out, Marines smash their way in, secure their target and then withdraw.
Except, as I said, space marines suck at "boots on the ground". Because of their ridiculously low numbers they're dependent on smashing something and then running away as fast as possible before they find themselves outnumbered thousands to one. Marines simply can't hold ground because if they try the enemy can arrange a counter-attack that will inflict casualties. Sure, it might come at a high price, but when the enemy has dozens of krak missiles/lascanons/etc for every marine in the target area marines are going to die. And it would be much better to lose an entire regiment of guardsmen attempting to take and hold a position than to lose a single marine. Automatically Appended Next Post: Ashiraya wrote:Don't forget the earlier note about collateral damage to structures and so on. It may not be a common situation but it does exist.
If collateral damage is an issue then throw a million guardsmen at the problem instead of an orbital bombardment, and make them use their bare fists instead of lasguns. It's a lot easier to get a million expendable guardsmen than a single tactical squad.
But really, this is only a problem because GW doesn't have any sense of scale. If you assume that marines are about as effective as they are on the tabletop (instead of superman with giant shoulder pads) and increase their numbers by a few orders of magnitude you get useful elite soldiers. Space marines are only stupid when GW keeps insisting that there is less than one space marine for each inhabited planet in the Imperium.
Yes, but the Imperium is not reasonable, so they bypass the red tape with super-soldiers instead.
But the question here is "is it reasonable for the Imperium to have space marines". That was just a concession that space marines aren't reasonable, and your only point of disagreement is that they're unreasonable for different reasons.
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Post by: Envihon
So then, if there are too few Space Marines per Imperial World, how many special forces are there per person in the United States if 1% of the population serves in the military and the amount of combat positions are less than that.
Special Forces are not in large numbers, not even in our own reality, that is why they are a small elite force that is fantasized about in our time as we glorify such people. Kind of the way Space Marines are...
Special Forces are to go in, complete the mission and get out. The fluff treats the Space Marines in the same way. They have a specific task, one that can't be solved by throwing tons of bodies at it but you need highly trained specialists who have been battle hardened and rigorously trained to endure those conditions.
As I said before, Robert Heinlein already made the best case for why elite troops in Power Armor would be so useful in sci-fi combat even with highly destructive fire power. Each kind of force has it's place and when not applied in that manner, a strategy fails.
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Post by: Unit1126PLL
Envihon wrote:So then, if there are too few Space Marines per Imperial World, how many special forces are there per person in the United States if 1% of the population serves in the military and the amount of combat positions are less than that. Special Forces are not in large numbers, not even in our own reality, that is why they are a small elite force that is fantasized about in our time as we glorify such people. Kind of the way Space Marines are... Special Forces are to go in, complete the mission and get out. The fluff treats the Space Marines in the same way. They have a specific task, one that can't be solved by throwing tons of bodies at it but you need highly trained specialists who have been battle hardened and rigorously trained to endure those conditions. As I said before, Robert Heinlein already made the best case for why elite troops in Power Armor would be so useful in sci-fi combat even with highly destructive fire power. Each kind of force has it's place and when not applied in that manner, a strategy fails. That kind of special forces is less necessary in 40k. Collateral damage is not a problem. Political concerns (i.e. sending an army would start a war, so send special forces instead) is not a problem. Literally everyone is at eachother's throats constantly, so there's no need for a Seal Team Six-esque operation when you can just crack the continent from orbit, if necessary. To address your point more directly: If each force has its place, then what places do Space Marines inhabit? Most of what special forces do nowadays can be taken care of by brute force in 40k, as illustrated above.
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Post by: Kelly502
Weren't Space Marines developed to stand up one on one with an Ork if I remember correctly. I believe Orks were the initial threat to the Imperium. Plus they are the tip of the spear, they make planet fall, with fewer numbers, kill the enemy, and secure their objectives, which could even be just a secure landing zone for the Imperial Guard. Space Marines can take toxins that would kill normal men, they can go without sleep, they have two hearts, etc. etc.
Why take a company with tanks, titans, and all the support they need to operate when you can complete the same mission with a few Marines, one assault ship to transport them, and few support staff.
Plus, they know no fear. They don't need the threat of being shot by a commissar to fight the enemy. They crave the fight, they were altered for war.
Edge of the knife, tip of the spear.
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Post by: Peregrine
Kelly502 wrote:Why take a company with tanks, titans, and all the support they need to operate when you can complete the same mission with a few Marines, one assault ship to transport them, and few support staff.
Because it's much easier to obtain the company of tanks/infantry/etc than a single tactical squad. This is the problem with GW's completely broken sense of scale, space marines are so absurdly rare and valuable that in virtually every conceivable situation it's easier to just throw a few million guardsmen or other conventional forces at the problem.
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Post by: 1hadhq
Peregrine wrote: Kelly502 wrote:Why take a company with tanks, titans, and all the support they need to operate when you can complete the same mission with a few Marines, one assault ship to transport them, and few support staff.
Because it's much easier to obtain the company of tanks/infantry/etc than a single tactical squad. This is the problem with GW's completely broken sense of scale, space marines are so absurdly rare and valuable that in virtually every conceivable situation it's easier to just throw a few million guardsmen or other conventional forces at the problem.
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Post by: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl
Ashiraya wrote:I still think the Space Marines should use some kind of recon/stealth/sniper unit that consists of experienced soldiers, not recruits (Well... Scouts are pretty badass but they are still recruits in comparison to the others).
Space wolves do.
Psienesis wrote:For that kind of operation, there are either specialist Chapters that do that sort of thing, or other Imperial organizations that can perform the role and then provide intel to the Space Marines (Tanith First-And-Only, Vindicare, various DCA, etc.).
Well, DCA would likely suck at recon.
- “Hey, how are the enemy lines”
- “We killed that man by opening his trachea and leaving him to bleed to death and then we killed that women by breaking her neck and then we killed…”
- “I do not care who you killed, I want to know information that will tell us on which front we should rather attack!”
- “… poison made him mad with pain and then we killed…”
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Post by: RivenSkull
Those artillery bombardments did just that during the US island hopping in WWII. Practically a stroll on a beach afterwards.
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Post by: Envihon
Unit1126PLL wrote: Envihon wrote:So then, if there are too few Space Marines per Imperial World, how many special forces are there per person in the United States if 1% of the population serves in the military and the amount of combat positions are less than that.
Special Forces are not in large numbers, not even in our own reality, that is why they are a small elite force that is fantasized about in our time as we glorify such people. Kind of the way Space Marines are...
Special Forces are to go in, complete the mission and get out. The fluff treats the Space Marines in the same way. They have a specific task, one that can't be solved by throwing tons of bodies at it but you need highly trained specialists who have been battle hardened and rigorously trained to endure those conditions.
As I said before, Robert Heinlein already made the best case for why elite troops in Power Armor would be so useful in sci-fi combat even with highly destructive fire power. Each kind of force has it's place and when not applied in that manner, a strategy fails.
That kind of special forces is less necessary in 40k. Collateral damage is not a problem. Political concerns (i.e. sending an army would start a war, so send special forces instead) is not a problem. Literally everyone is at eachother's throats constantly, so there's no need for a Seal Team Six-esque operation when you can just crack the continent from orbit, if necessary.
To address your point more directly:
If each force has its place, then what places do Space Marines inhabit? Most of what special forces do nowadays can be taken care of by brute force in 40k, as illustrated above.
When the Space Marines were first created, they did have that job because their original purpose was to bring lost human worlds into the embrace of the Imperium. We wanted to break a population but not destroy the planet and I still do think that for the most part, Space Marines still have that role. When you bombard a planet to take it over even from xenos and even though you don't care about collateral damage, you still would destroy the infrastructure or the resources. If you would do this to a Forge World or an Agri-World, what was the point? You now destroyed the very reason why that planet was important to the Imperium and have to spend time and resources rebuilding it which in the time that it is, that might not be something that the Imperium can afford. I am also sure that the Ecclesiarchy would be kind of ticked off if you did that to one of the Shrine Worlds as well.
I mean you can even read to Space Marine entry and the Astra Militarum entry in the 7th Edition Dark Millennium part of the rule book to find why both exist: Space Marines pg 55: "Like Angels of Death, the superhuman Space Marines sweep into battle as if from nowhere, shattering their foes in a blaze of fire and death before leaving as abruptly as they came...Space Marines are the most powerful of the Imperium's warriors and they are expected to accomplish almost impossible battlefield duties, lead vital assaults, confront the most horrendous of foes and hold their positions no matter how hopeless the odds. Though their numbers are not great, they are sufficient for any task. Space Marines are masters of the lightening assault, thought they embrace any role to achieve victory; they were made for war, trained for victory and are armed for battle."
Now the Astra Militarum pg 61: "The Imperial Guard is Mankind's primary and most numerous defense. With soldiers, battle tanks, and artillery beyond number, they are the sledgehammer force that, thought slow to deploy, delivers devastating payload when it cumbersome blows land. Soldiers of the Imperial Guard are men, not genetically enhanced super humans. They fight not with the most finely crafted armaments in the galaxy, but with weapons and armor that can cheaply and easily mass-produced. They are the largest coherent fighting force in the galaxy, able to move massed regiments and armored vehicles across the segmentums to join any fray."
Not to mention, what usually happens when AM confront Chaos? They freak out or get converted into as the Chaos force sweeps in. The Space Marines are needed to fight fire with fire as the battle the CSM, a foe that would break a lot of AM regiments. They need commisars for Emperor's sake to keep their morale and good discipline while a Space Marine needs none of these things since they shall know no fear.
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Post by: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl
Envihon wrote:I am also sure that the Ecclesiarchy would be kind of ticked off if you did that to one of the Shrine Worlds as well.
The Ecclesiarchy has its own army that is fully capable of defending or retaking Shrine Worlds and that has the obvious advantage of not being made of inhuman heretics. Do you have any idea how much effort it would take to reconsecrate a shrine world if it had been liberated by marines  ?
Envihon wrote:Not to mention, what usually happens when AM confront Chaos? They freak out or get converted into as the Chaos force sweeps in. The Space Marines are needed to fight fire with fire as the battle the CSM, a foe that would break a lot of AM regiments. They need commisars for Emperor's sake to keep their morale and good discipline while a Space Marine needs none of these things since they shall know no fear.
Do you know the difference between a commissar and a chaplain? With a commissar, your chances of joining Chaos go down to “very unlikely”. With a chaplain, they stay up to “happens all the bloody time”!
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Post by: Peregrine
RivenSkull wrote:Those artillery bombardments did just that during the US island hopping in WWII. Practically a stroll on a beach afterwards.
You're forgetting that this is the setting where an IG army shelled a rebel hive city for multiple years, long after all signs of life had ended. And it's also the setting where starship weapons make real-world nukes look like a pretty fireworks display. If you want something dead in 40k it will be dead, and your troops will move in to occupy the empty wasteland.
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Post by: the ancient
Peregrine wrote: Kelly502 wrote:Why take a company with tanks, titans, and all the support they need to operate when you can complete the same mission with a few Marines, one assault ship to transport them, and few support staff.
Because it's much easier to obtain the company of tanks/infantry/etc than a single tactical squad. This is the problem with GW's completely broken sense of scale, space marines are so absurdly rare and valuable that in virtually every conceivable situation it's easier to just throw a few million guardsmen or other conventional forces at the problem.
Yes well the Catachan's say hi. A death world and they should be rarer than a marine but they're everywhere. pffft.
Well you can blame Guilliman for them being so rare. I think Guilliman wanted them to be flags. A bit like nobs really. Fight dispersed amongst the guard. Doing the commissar job, with deeds not a bullet in the head.
On the open battlefield, yeah sure. That artillery also doesn't mean much in a hive, or leave many resource's to claim. Sm are the artillery when your up close, they try and cut the head off, collect the relic or what not and leave the guard (that's why there called that) to guard the joint.
Why did they exist? To take down things puny human's couldn't, and repeatedly do it. Mainly Ork's, Humans weren't to hard to bring back into the fold. SM were a strike force to go for the throat. How effective would germany have been if all the heads of state were taken out at once. Leaving all the bases unable to organize any effective resistance. That's a guard problem.
Why do they still exist? To take down the thing's puny humans can't. They're a rapid mobile response unit. While the administratum is still filing paperwork, marines have boots on the ground.
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Post by: Psienesis
The artillery also has to get to the battlefield in the first place before it can be deployed to shell those trenches.
It can take the IG *years* to respond to a threat, where the Space Marines can respond within hours or days.
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Post by: TiamatRoar
One thing the fluff has been very consistent on is that Space Marines deploy and get around much more rapidly than the guard (when a reason it's mentioned, red tape comes up the most)
The few times in the fluff that the guard managed to deploy in a fast fashion was mainly because they happened to already be there at the time (as in, on that planet just as it got invaded). Often times, this was purely by accident (I think I recall at least two major fluff cases where a major guard force was there because red tape left them stranded there).
Even the guard's codex makes it explicit that they're slow to deploy. Space Marines' primary purpose has always been their fast reaction times. The fluff's clear on that.
The scale could probably still use some work but eh. It shows that as a force, the Space Marines definitely have their place in the Imperium (fast response when no one else can do it). It's just whether or not there's enough marines that's the question.
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Post by: Ashiraya
TiamatRoar wrote:
The scale could probably still use some work but eh. It shows that as a force, the Space Marines definitely have their place in the Imperium (fast response when no one else can do it). It's just whether or not there's enough marines that's the question.
Indeed, and that is a question that will never reach consensus.
With sufficient armour (Artificer) a Marine can, in the fluff, downright shrug off direct hits from Battle Cannons and anti-tank missiles. (Source is C: GK, page 63)
If you are into psychics, you know that you must be pretty tough to shrug off a direct hit from a weapon of the Battle Cannon's size, armour or no.
Handwavium gives Marines the strength they need to work.
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Post by: Envihon
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Envihon wrote:I am also sure that the Ecclesiarchy would be kind of ticked off if you did that to one of the Shrine Worlds as well.
The Ecclesiarchy has its own army that is fully capable of defending or retaking Shrine Worlds and that has the obvious advantage of not being made of inhuman heretics. Do you have any idea how much effort it would take to reconsecrate a shrine world if it had been liberated by marines  ?
Envihon wrote:Not to mention, what usually happens when AM confront Chaos? They freak out or get converted into as the Chaos force sweeps in. The Space Marines are needed to fight fire with fire as the battle the CSM, a foe that would break a lot of AM regiments. They need commisars for Emperor's sake to keep their morale and good discipline while a Space Marine needs none of these things since they shall know no fear.
Do you know the difference between a commissar and a chaplain? With a commissar, your chances of joining Chaos go down to “very unlikely”. With a chaplain, they stay up to “happens all the bloody time”!
Because a Commisar makes all the difference when a Chaos-fueled superhuman is going through his lines like a hot knife through butter. The AM are usually not equipped to deal with power armor unless it is artillery. Should the CSM get beyond their lines using, you know, warp based powers, the AM are done, stick a fork in them done. It is pointed out several times that those flashlights they like to call guns against a CSM is like throwing a pebble at them. Against foes like that, the SM are needed. The only normal humans that could take them are the SoB because they happen to have Power Armor as well and have conditioning to withstand such treatment but the SoB are raised to be that and imo, suffer from the same problem that the SM do, they can't replenish their numbers quick enough since they are literally raised from children to be a SoB. And I would stand to argue, that the SM could replenish their numbers faster since they modify existing human adults. The AM is the only one who can afford to do that but you can't use that strategy every time.
To me, every single cog in the Imperium's military machine has their place. Psienesis pointed something out that I quoted above from the Rulebook itself, SM are good are precise, quick targeting to eliminate an enemy while it takes time for the AM to set up their main advantages. SoB are the best at burning heretics because kill it with fire.
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Post by: lliu
Space marines OP. Period.
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Post by: Ashiraya
SoB have far more problems than is apparent with them.
Even if we go with their armour providing equal protection (Which is far from unambigious) then they are themselves still far more fragile. Blunt hits will still turn their organs to mush.
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Post by: Psienesis
And I would stand to argue, that the SM could replenish their numbers faster since they modify existing human adults.
Maybe during the GC and the Heresy, but not any more. Those inducted into the Chapters as Aspirants are generally pre-pubescent boys to very young teens.
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Post by: Veteran Sergeant
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
If I recall correctly, someone in this section mentioned how PC astartes power armor and NPC astartes power armor have different stats in one RPG from FFG. If that is confirmed, I would rather focus on fluff than on FFG crunch.
The section I quoted comes from GW's Inquisitor, not FFG.
However, the questiion FFG crunch is fairly irrelevant. FFG's game systems have different stats because they weren't designed to be interchangeable. Really it's only important to compare the stats within the systems. The only system which features Sisters statted out is Dark Heresy, which only has Space Marines as NPCs. Deathwatch is a rather cartoonish dice rolling exercise. However, in both systems, the Space Marines suits are heavier than the Sisters ones, and the Sisters is equivalent to the Dark Heresy game's "Light Power Armor" (albeit with a slight increase to its body armor rating), and the Space Marine armor is more powerful than the game's "regular" Power Armor. Really, in the end, all the FFG crunch does is disagree (slightly) on just how much more power Space Marine armor is, not on whether or not it was heavier in the first place.
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Post by: Peregrine
No, melta and plasma are needed. Remember, there are a few billion guardsmen with melta or plasma guns for every space marine in the Imperium.
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Post by: Sigvatr
"Why do Space Marines even exist?" SOMEONE had to wake the C'tan / Necrons up. They volunteered. Kinda.
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Post by: Peregrine
TiamatRoar wrote:One thing the fluff has been very consistent on is that Space Marines deploy and get around much more rapidly than the guard (when a reason it's mentioned, red tape comes up the most)
But the solution to red tape is to remove the red tape, not to build an entire new branch of the military that doesn't have any red tape.
Space Marines' primary purpose has always been their fast reaction times. The fluff's clear on that.
Except the absurdly tiny number of space marines means that while they may be able to get to your war fairly quickly if they decide to come the chances of getting any meaningful help from them are on the level of the chances of winning the lottery. A fast reaction force makes sense, but only if you can actually deploy it where it is needed.
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Post by: optometris
Astartes do things that normal imperial guard can't.
A Marine can go on fighting in a siege etc for days without rest while a normal guardsmen will need to sleep. If a grenade was thrown at 10 guardsmen, you'd get 10 dead guardsmen more than likely. throw it at a space marine, he's probably just going to be going more slowly.
In the face of a daemon of chaos, guard could falter or even turn to chaos. whereas marines would be leading the vanguard to fight the daemon.
Marines also boost morale of guardsmen, allowing them to achieve things they may not otherwise.
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Post by: Peregrine
optometris wrote:A Marine can go on fighting in a siege etc for days without rest while a normal guardsmen will need to sleep.
Yes, and for the cost of that one space marine you can get a few thousand more guardsmen to take over while the first one sleeps. And, unlike the space marine, the guardsmen aren't likely to run out of ammunition after the first few minutes of combat and be reduced to fighting with their chainsword for most of that multi-day siege.
If a grenade was thrown at 10 guardsmen, you'd get 10 dead guardsmen more than likely. throw it at a space marine, he's probably just going to be going more slowly.
Except the problem here is that having ten dead guardsmen is much less of a loss than having one slightly wounded space marine. There are a few million more guardsmen where those ten came from, the space marine is almost priceless. In fact, it would probably be better to throw a million guardsmen at the problem than to risk having that space marine be anywhere near a grenade.
In the face of a daemon of chaos, guard could falter or even turn to chaos. whereas marines would be leading the vanguard to fight the daemon.
http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Warhammer-40-000?N=102352+4294967254&Nu=product.repositoryId&qty=12&sorting=phl
Marines also boost morale of guardsmen, allowing them to achieve things they may not otherwise.
Yes, and I've said before this is pretty much the entire purpose of space marines. They're great for propaganda and religious value, they're a terrible weapon from a practical perspective.
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Post by: Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl
Ashiraya wrote:If you are into psychics, you know that you must be pretty tough to shrug off a direct hit from a weapon of the Battle Cannon's size, armour or no.
You mean physics, right?
Though psychics could be interesting here  .
Envihon wrote:Because a Commisar makes all the difference when a Chaos-fueled superhuman is going through his lines like a hot knife through butter.
Yes. Yes it does. Also melta does. Ask Ciaphas Cain and Ferik Jurgen.
Envihon wrote:The AM are usually not equipped to deal with power armor unless it is artillery.
Or anti-tank weapons. They have tons of them.
What about Imperial Knights, Titanic legions, Baneblades and all that?
Envihon wrote:The only normal humans that could take them are the SoB because they happen to have Power Armor as well and have conditioning to withstand such treatment but the SoB are raised to be that and imo, suffer from the same problem that the SM do, they can't replenish their numbers quick enough since they are literally raised from children to be a SoB.
Yes, but basically every imperial guard, male or female, that has a young daughter and dies gives a new candidate. Sure that means a huge recruitment pool.
Envihon wrote:And I would stand to argue, that the SM could replenish their numbers faster since they modify existing human adults.
I do not see how that helps. Provided the recruitment is constant rather than on-demand, it should not change anything.
Yes, from that rulebook that includes no Sister of Battle character, and does not talk anywhere about their armor. Then how is that relevant?
Veteran Sergeant wrote:The only system which features Sisters statted out is Dark Heresy, which only has Space Marines as NPCs.
So, there are not stats for Sisters of Battle in Deathwatch, then?
Veteran Sergeant wrote:However, in both systems, the Space Marines suits are heavier than the Sisters ones, and the Sisters is equivalent to the Dark Heresy game's "Light Power Armor" (albeit with a slight increase to its body armor rating), and the Space Marine armor is more powerful than the game's "regular" Power Armor.
I do not understand, did you not just say there was not stats for Sisters in Deathwatch? Or is the other system here Inquisitor?
So, apparently Dark Heresy has Sisters' power armor less protective than Marines power armor. I think this sucks, and I am starting to see why Sisters player tend to dislike it so much…
Ashiraya wrote:SoB have far more problems than is apparent with them.
Even if we go with their armour providing equal protection (Which is far from unambigious) then they are themselves still far more fragile. Blunt hits will still turn their organs to mush.
The same thing happens with marines tanking battle-cannon shots. Yes they have two hearts, that does not make those hearts suddenly capable of resisting better to blunt hits. It is all space techo-magic gimmicks.
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Post by: pelicaniforce
When do marines tank battle cannons? For marines, they are pretty much the main things to be afraid of.
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Post by: 1hadhq
pelicaniforce wrote:When do marines tank battle cannons? For marines, they are pretty much the main things to be afraid of.
TDA
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Post by: TiamatRoar
Peregrine wrote:
But the solution to red tape is to remove the red tape, not to build an entire new branch of the military that doesn't have any red tape.
The Space Marines aren't a new branch (nor has the fluff ever stated or implied that they don't earn back the cost it takes to build them).
Also, removing ten-thousand years of red tape across a million planets under a system specifically designed to make it so armies can't last long if they go rogue lest the Horus Heresy repeat itself isn't going to be any easy task.
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Post by: Gogsnik
Peregrine wrote:..there are a few billion guardsmen with melta or plasma guns for every space marine in the Imperium.
What a load of nonsense, you do know that both of those weapon types are incredibly rare, plasma even more so than melta since only a few forgeworlds in the entire Imperium can make it. This also ignores the logistics of getting billions of guardsmen anywhere.
But the solution to red tape is to remove the red tape, not to build an entire new branch of the military that doesn't have any red tape.
You do know that the Space Marines pre-exist the Administratum yes? The Imperium didn't create the Space Marines, the Space Marines created the Imperium! All of that red-tape came into existence once humans were put in charge.
Except the absurdly tiny number of space marines means that while they may be able to get to your war fairly quickly if they decide to come the chances of getting any meaningful help from them are on the level of the chances of winning the lottery. A fast reaction force makes sense, but only if you can actually deploy it where it is needed.
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Post by: Ashiraya
Artificer armour, too, can shrug off direct hits from battle cannons.
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Post by: the ancient
Cain is a bad example. He likes running away. Preferably in the fastest thing around. You can give them a blank/armour, but thtats mkay?
Yes lets use knights and bane blades and stuff, hang on ive got a couple of billion catachans you can use as well. You might as well theyre every damn where. Its only a death world.
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Post by: Envihon
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Ashiraya wrote:If you are into psychics, you know that you must be pretty tough to shrug off a direct hit from a weapon of the Battle Cannon's size, armour or no.
You mean physics, right?
Though psychics could be interesting here  .
Envihon wrote:Because a Commisar makes all the difference when a Chaos-fueled superhuman is going through his lines like a hot knife through butter.
Yes. Yes it does. Also melta does. Ask Ciaphas Cain and Ferik Jurgen.
Envihon wrote:The AM are usually not equipped to deal with power armor unless it is artillery.
Or anti-tank weapons. They have tons of them.
What about Imperial Knights, Titanic legions, Baneblades and all that?
Envihon wrote:The only normal humans that could take them are the SoB because they happen to have Power Armor as well and have conditioning to withstand such treatment but the SoB are raised to be that and imo, suffer from the same problem that the SM do, they can't replenish their numbers quick enough since they are literally raised from children to be a SoB.
Yes, but basically every imperial guard, male or female, that has a young daughter and dies gives a new candidate. Sure that means a huge recruitment pool.
Envihon wrote:And I would stand to argue, that the SM could replenish their numbers faster since they modify existing human adults.
I do not see how that helps. Provided the recruitment is constant rather than on-demand, it should not change anything.
Yes, from that rulebook that includes no Sister of Battle character, and does not talk anywhere about their armor. Then how is that relevant?
Veteran Sergeant wrote:The only system which features Sisters statted out is Dark Heresy, which only has Space Marines as NPCs.
So, there are not stats for Sisters of Battle in Deathwatch, then?
Veteran Sergeant wrote:However, in both systems, the Space Marines suits are heavier than the Sisters ones, and the Sisters is equivalent to the Dark Heresy game's "Light Power Armor" (albeit with a slight increase to its body armor rating), and the Space Marine armor is more powerful than the game's "regular" Power Armor.
I do not understand, did you not just say there was not stats for Sisters in Deathwatch? Or is the other system here Inquisitor?
So, apparently Dark Heresy has Sisters' power armor less protective than Marines power armor. I think this sucks, and I am starting to see why Sisters player tend to dislike it so much…
Ashiraya wrote:SoB have far more problems than is apparent with them.
Even if we go with their armour providing equal protection (Which is far from unambigious) then they are themselves still far more fragile. Blunt hits will still turn their organs to mush.
The same thing happens with marines tanking battle-cannon shots. Yes they have two hearts, that does not make those hearts suddenly capable of resisting better to blunt hits. It is all space techo-magic gimmicks.
Imperial Knights are more expensive than a SM, because it is a Titan vs. infantry, also with the interfacing of the Imperial Knight, the Knight armor and the pilot have to be compatible otherwise the pilot's brain gets fried in the process of imprinting on the Knight armor so there won't be a steady stream of recruits, oh and those recruits have to be a Noble from a Knight planet where the SM can recruit and make new Aspirants at a quicker rate than they can replace a Knight with. On top of that, if the Knight armor is totally destroyed, they have to contract a Forge World to make a new suit of Armor so Imperial Knights again have their place but it isn't the same as a SM.
I would venture to say that the SoB have a lower recruitment phase vs. SM. The SM Chapters can usually recruit pretty quickly, hell, the GK have first dibs on the psykers off the Black Ships and many of the SM their own planets to recruit from and they don't need to raise a child to make their new recruits.
Every force in the Imperium has it's place and all are needed at the right time for this whole machine to work well. It's why the Raven Guard kept their own AM for their planet and oversaw it during the Horus Heresy (I don't know about the modern era) but there are some things the AM can't do, there are some things the SoB can't do which is why we have how many armies represented on the table top? All them have distinct tactics and ways to play. The table top, despite not having an entirely balanced rules, has distinct play styles for the AM, SM, and SoB.
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