Martel732 wrote: But the efficiency of the GH is just kind of a slap in the face to every other meq out there. Mechanically speaking, triple the attacks when receiving a charge is worth more than 1 point.
You should also be comparing Blood Angel Assault Marines to Grey Hunters if you are talking Assaults, because Tactical Marines don’t do Assault.
Yes Grey Hunters get more attacks than Tactical Marines when Receiving a Charge, but Blood Angels Assault Marines get the same number on the Charge. You can also pull off 3-4 Flamer Templates on both the offence. Your Veteran Sergeant with his Power Sword can also take down up to 4 Grey Hunters and not be Challenged Block.
On the Defense you can still pull off the 3-4 Flamer Templates and 3 Power Weapon Attacks. Also unless thing go wrong you should never be in the position to be assaulted.
I can't use power swords anymore. I have to use axes to game for 2+ armor.
So I cross the battlefield with ASM and assault you and take overwatch just to be equally matched by your FOOT TROOPS? Do you not see where this is an issue? GH also have 24" guns, and ASM do not. GH own BA ASM.
"because Tactical Marines don’t do Assault. "
That's funny, because GW still charges for grenades, WS 4 and S 4 on them.
Martel732 wrote: Yeah, it's probably the case that by now I'm conditioned to lose to Taudar, but SW are the final insult. Taudar are a completely different animal than BA or C:SM, so it's harder to compare. Also, if I tried real hard and played well in 5th, I could beat SW with BA, and now that is taken away as well.
But the efficiency of the GH is just kind of a slap in the face to every other meq out there. Mechanically speaking, triple the attacks when receiving a charge is worth more than 1 point.
Sure, I know that SW are no better off against Screamerstars or Seer Councils, because 30 attacks that do nothing are no better than 10 attacks that do nothing. But it makes a huge difference against other lists that actually might want to assault once in a while.
Oh no. I'm not implying that I can be effective against Xenos and marines. Not at all. What is true is that my lists that do pretty well against other marines lose magnificently against SW because SW rule out assault so completely. It's much harder to compare against Xenos. I never meant to imply that. ]
Honestly thanks for the clarificaiton. That is why I asked. It does still come back to: my assault army doesn't to well assaulting a unit that is better in melee. That falls into the category of "excrement happens". Yeah grey hunters are good for their cost, but they aren't a dozen pages of complaints good. They get just as beat up by the other forces that beat up on your force too. The problem is that your anger is directed at the wrong place. You touched on it a bit when you mentioned previously that GW has only left you with spite when dealing with certain armies. Space wolves haven't changed at all. Blood Angels got their "web codex" and got shafted, yet again. On top of that the changes to assault have made an army that focuses on assault even weaker. Those are faults of the new BA book and the new rules and have nothing specificlaly to do with the Space wolves. The only place there is a difference betweeen BA, C:SM and Taudar is in your head. All space wolves are is another army that you can't beat well with the army you like to play. Just because they are marines doesn't mean you should be equal footing with them. If blood angels and wolves were the same they wouldn't have separate books.
Blood angels are one of the worst lists right now and you should be happy about those forces that you CAN beat consistently since the way GW has been going you could be losing to everyone at this stage.
Martel732 wrote: I can't use power swords anymore. I have to use axes to game for 2+ armor.
So I cross the battlefield with ASM and assault you and take overwatch just to be equally matched by your FOOT TROOPS? Do you not see where this is an issue? GH also have 24" guns, and ASM do not. GH own BA ASM.
"because Tactical Marines don’t do Assault. "
That's funny, because GW still charges for grenades, WS 4 and S 4 on them.
That is what Blood Angels do! They are an Assault Army! You have a 1 in 6 chance of Even your Tactical Squads being able to pull of a decent assault and you can make that a 50/50 chance with a Special Character.
You say you stopped using Death Company. I just looked at Death Company.
Cons:
>Cost: They Cost more than Most MEQs >Limited #: Witch can be offset by a Character
>Non-Scoring:
Pros:
>Rage: +2 Attacks on the Assault. That is 5 Attacks on the Assault.
>Furious Charge: +1 Strength on the Assault
>Fearless: No need for Moral Checks
>Relentless: Assault 2 at 12” Bolt Guns at the cost of one Attack.
>Feel No Pain: A second 5+ Save.
One unit of 10 in a Rhino with 2 Hand Flamers and 2 Power Weapon is around 300 points, 400 with Jump Packs. Yes that is a lot of points, but unless you are getting pounded by S8 Weapons they should be relatively resilient.
No, they die to any strength weapon just fine. Been there, done that. DC are horrible because they don't score and are vulnerable to spoiling attacks. They lose all their goodies if they get assaulted, which is the exact opposite of the GH!
With the lists I play against, DC would be shot off the table immediately. Or really any list. What list wouldn't just shoot them first? They are so expensive that even MLs are efficient against them.
I have basically stopped using BA as an assault army, which is why I'm running them more as "counts as" C:SM.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Yeah DC look horrible... but they need to be fixed in the BA codex, not the SW codex, sooo....
Right. So this goes back to the empasse of what exactly to put into the SW codex. I don't think they should be better than C:SM AGAIN, but somehow I think that they will be. At the very least, rune priests need to be brought back to Earth. But just as Eldar lost the obnoxious runes of warding and gained so much more, I bet that's what happens with SW. Again.
GH really need to be only two attacks when assaulted, I don't care how they implement it. Take the units no one uses in the SW codex (because why take anything other than GH, right?) and buff them to compete with GH. The current SW codex is actually not very good from an internal balance standpoint, because the answer is almost always, "Take more GH!"
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Yeah DC look horrible... but they need to be fixed in the BA codex, not the SW codex, sooo....
...At the very least, rune priests need to be brought back to Earth...
GH really need to be only two attacks when assaulted, I don't care how they implement it. Take the units no one uses in the SW codex (because why take anything other than GH, right?) and buff them to compete with GH. The current SW codex is actually not very good from an internal balance standpoint, because the answer is almost always, "Take more GH!"
For all the noise... that's basically what's been stated by many people already. I think GH should only be 2 attacks if they get charged and be about 14 or 15pts (I think that's as good as most Chapter tactics). If they stay 3 attacks when they get charged, they need to be more like 16pts, maybe 17. The BC need to be cheaper, Long Fangs more expensive and the Fast Attack section needs some balancing.
I don't think Long Fangs need to be more expensive at all. You are already almost certainly going to get C:SM heavy weapon pricing. If you want MLs with flakk, that's going to be more than lascannons. They are a 5 man squad that die when the Eldar look at them the wrong way.
Martel732 wrote: But the efficiency of the GH is just kind of a slap in the face to every other meq out there. Mechanically speaking, triple the attacks when receiving a charge is worth more than 1 point.
You should also be comparing Blood Angel Assault Marines to Grey Hunters if you are talking Assaults, because Tactical Marines don’t do Assault.
Yes Grey Hunters get more attacks than Tactical Marines when Receiving a Charge, but Blood Angels Assault Marines get the same number on the Charge. You can also pull off 3-4 Flamer Templates on both the offence. Your Veteran Sergeant with his Power Sword can also take down up to 4 Grey Hunters and not be Challenged Block.
On the Defense you can still pull off the 3-4 Flamer Templates and 3 Power Weapon Attacks. Also unless thing go wrong you should never be in the position to be assaulted.
As a Black Templars player then, you're better at assault and you're better at shooting, and you've got a Codex that's one edition older. You're as good at shooting as a Tactical Squad and as good at melee as a Crusader Squad at the same time, for 1 PPM more.
You keep saying you only want a fair and balanced Codex, but the thing is we're trying to point out how much of what's being wishlisted in this thread won't lead to that, because you're already better than everyone else (MEQ-wise) bar GK.
Anpu42 wrote: By the way Martel, have you tried playing a Space Wolf List Yourself?
Yes. Mainly in 5th to prove my point about them. I slaughtered 4 others, only losing to IG. Although the Eldar were tight even back then, because they just shot and shot and shot. The people who tried to fight me in HTH just died like slime. A much easier list to run than BA ever have been. I just stand and shoot and dare others to assault me. The Eldar were harder because they made me come get them. Eldraad was double fortuning war walkers in ruins. That was ugly man.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: As a Black Templars player then, you're better at assault and you're better at shooting, and you've got a Codex that's one edition older. You're as good at shooting as a Tactical Squad and as good at melee as a Crusader Squad at the same time, for 1 PPM more.
You keep saying you only want a fair and balanced Codex, but the thing is we're trying to point out how much of what's being wishlisted in this thread won't lead to that, because you're already better than everyone else (MEQ-wise) bar GK.
Well I do want something fair and balanced. I also think that this can be achieved by making other units better and more desirable rather than gutting the two “Must Take” Units, the Grey Hunters and Long Fangs.
Martel732 wrote: I don't think Long Fangs need to be more expensive at all. You are already almost certainly going to get C:SM heavy weapon pricing. If you want MLs with flakk, that's going to be more than lascannons. They are a 5 man squad that die when the Eldar look at them the wrong way.
Giving them C:SM pricing is essentially making them more expensive. At the moment you take heavy bolters or missile launchers to absorb some wounds, C:SM pricing would make both of those 5pts more expensive per model. Basically I want to see Predators being a more viable option compared to Long Fangs in the Heavy Support slot.
Actually, I don't mind HB being 5pts, I don't really think they're worth 10pts, but I like them at 5pts.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: As a Black Templars player then, you're better at assault and you're better at shooting, and you've got a Codex that's one edition older. You're as good at shooting as a Tactical Squad and as good at melee as a Crusader Squad at the same time, for 1 PPM more.
You keep saying you only want a fair and balanced Codex, but the thing is we're trying to point out how much of what's being wishlisted in this thread won't lead to that, because you're already better than everyone else (MEQ-wise) bar GK.
Well I do want something fair and balanced. I also think that this can be achieved by making other units better and more desirable rather than gutting the two “Must Take” Units, the Grey Hunters and Long Fangs.
Giving GH merely double the amount of attacks when charged instead of triple is not "gutting". Long Fangs are not what I have a problem with at all. In fact, I think MLs are pretty much crap.
Martel732 wrote: I don't think Long Fangs need to be more expensive at all. You are already almost certainly going to get C:SM heavy weapon pricing. If you want MLs with flakk, that's going to be more than lascannons. They are a 5 man squad that die when the Eldar look at them the wrong way.
Giving them C:SM pricing is essentially making them more expensive. At the moment you take heavy bolters or missile launchers to absorb some wounds, C:SM pricing would make both of those 5pts more expensive per model. Basically I want to see Predators being a more viable option compared to Long Fangs in the Heavy Support slot.
Actually, I don't mind HB being 5pts, I don't really think they're worth 10pts, but I like them at 5pts.
I like the were they are sitting, though I would like my Auto-Cannon Long Fangs back.
I would like to see a more competative Predator, maybe Auto Cannon Sponons?
GH are limited to 2 attacks if they are firing at 24"
If they are an assault TAC squad then 3 attacks
1+2cc weapons + Charge or
1 + 2 CC weapons + counter attack (which isnt a guaranteed thing)
Play WYSIWYG because that kills the shooting effectiveness or CC effectiveness of the army.
Either we get our 24" rapid fire gun lines and a couple of special weapons which means we cant assault and shoot at the same time unless given relentless by Grimnar
OR
We get 10 shots at 12" and additional attacks but we arent able to out shoot anything like that WS and BS is MEQ
Longfangs to Devastators, We can split fire between two options as long as the captain doesn't fire.
Devastators can up their BS to 5 if their captain doesnt fire
our assault marines do not gain multiple attacks (and their WS/BS is MEQ-1 for a few additional attacks that probably wont land (there is your statistical fact)
Look at what we have for troops MEQ-1 or MEQ+1 no in between and I am not sorry about that. I am sorry you cannot build a sufficient list or have a good enough grasp of battlefield awareness or tactics to fight against wolves
our assault marines do not gain multiple attacks (and their WS/BS is MEQ-1 for a few additional attacks that probably wont land (there is your statistical fact)
WS3 is identical to WS4 for purposes of attacking stuff up until WS7, so I think you'll find that those additional attacks will hit the vast majority of targets just as easily as if they'd been WS4. It only matters against WS3, WS7 and WS8.
I'm glad this is back to a light hearted discusion (where I want it to be atleast)
I have been lied to about the BS5 and I apologize for my wrongness
I understand our baseline is Bolter, Bolt pistol and CCW
but WYSIWYG limits from your baseline. what the model has is what he has, no baseline no extra. If you wana get into a super WYSIWYG put the grenades on your marines.
Kavik_Whitescar wrote: I'm glad this is back to a light hearted discusion (where I want it to be atleast)
I have been lied to about the BS5 and I apologize for my wrongness
I understand our baseline is Bolter, Bolt pistol and CCW
but WYSIWYG limits from your baseline. what the model has is what he has, no baseline no extra. If you wana get into a super WYSIWYG put the grenades on your marines.
You do relise that most of us Space Wolf Players have enough Chain Swords and Combat knife in tiier bits boxs to equip an Imperial Guard Regiment.
Kavik_Whitescar wrote: I'm glad this is back to a light hearted discusion (where I want it to be atleast)
I have been lied to about the BS5 and I apologize for my wrongness
I understand our baseline is Bolter, Bolt pistol and CCW
but WYSIWYG limits from your baseline. what the model has is what he has, no baseline no extra. If you wana get into a super WYSIWYG put the grenades on your marines.
You do relise that most of us Space Wolf Players have enough Chain Swords and Combat knife in tiier bits boxs to equip an Imperial Guard Regiment.
Yup, and if you are gonna play in a WYSIWYG area, take the time to paint and put em on your marines.
as a SW player problem solved, if you play against em be sure to be vigilant on which models hve what.
Meh, I put the chainswords in a box and gave about 90% of them an axe instead waving bolters 1 handed or stuck the axe int the base as if its embeddedin the ground ready for them to pull out and hack someone... It works for me
If they are an assault TAC squad then 3 attacks 1+2cc weapons + Charge or 1 + 2 CC weapons + counter attack (which isnt a guaranteed thing)
Play WYSIWYG because that kills the shooting effectiveness or CC effectiveness of the army.
I don't like that, because all Marines have Bolt Pistols whether they're modeled or not and it would be odd if the model had Bolter + CCW modeled but then couldn't use the CCW because they had no Bolt Pistol or could not use the Bolter because they were carrying a CCW.
As someone who runs BA pretty consistently I've found it frustrating to have my assault squads halved or worse the turn they charge. Not due to overwatch but to that counter-attack that every unit has, it's maddening to watch an army built specifically to do the assaulty thing get their gak kicked in by guys with rifles. Now, after they do their counter-attack thing and my guys have a chance to hit back, I can generally even the score, not always, but most of the time my now under strength assault squad will kill most of the Grey Hunters.
But if you factor in a decent overwatch, and decent counter-attack rolls, the assault squad generally pulls a PDF and dies to a man. I've found that you precede the charge with something the Grey Hunters generally can't melee to death (in some cases) like a dreadnought, assault marines fair far better but again, it sucks that I have to do that just to b able to use my army the way I want to. Grey Hunters are described as veterans, wizened to the ways of war and such, why is it that they keep their psychotic and death-seeking counter attack abilities they had when they were Blood Claws?
I like Space Wolves, a lot. They're the next army I'm going to build, but I can honestly say, I wouldn't mind having the GH's a bit less on the 'we're better than everyone' side of things.
I'm confused. How are grey hunters kicking your ass?
BA assault marines have two attacks plus a third one when charging. If you get red thirst or if a Sang priest is around you have furious charge. Also the unit should have three assault weapons in hand flamers, flamers, melta guns, or inferno pistols. Where the grey hunters list typically only has two special weapons as most are in groups of 10.
You shoot bolt pistols, assault weapons, chuck a grenade (why not its S6 instead of S4 bolt) and then assault. Your guns hit on 3s, and your melee attacks on 4s and your wounding on 3. The Grey Hunters (who didn't die to your shooting) overwatch hitting on 6s, then if they make a LD check they then get 3 melee attacks that hit on 4s and wound on 4s. Your then getting 5+ FNP for every failed 3+ save. You both have I4 and all the grenades so it doesn't matter if they are in cover or not.
I see very little here that says that a BA assault squad shouldn't win combat.
You know why my Grey Hunters are good? Because I attack with them. When they drop down, I shoot. If the other guy doesn't assault me, I damn well assault them. So I get all the shooting, I get the guarenteed bonus attack, and they never get any charge bonus that might apply to their army.
You have the exact same options for getting into combat as grey hunters to. Rhino, drop pod, Landraider. Yet you get to add in another - Decent of angels. And lets not forget your free razorback if you choose to hoof it. What does that thing shoot at all game. How-a-bout that Grey Hunter squad your about to assault and try to thin their lines just that much more.
Yes, 6th edition took the teeth out of the BA codex, but it did a number on a lot of other assault lists too. I just don't see how your failing as badly as you said.
As someone who runs BA pretty consistently I've found it frustrating to have my assault squads halved or worse the turn they charge. Not due to overwatch but to that counter-attack that every unit has, it's maddening to watch an army built specifically to do the assaulty thing get their gak kicked in by guys with rifles. Now, after they do their counter-attack thing and my guys have a chance to hit back, I can generally even the score, not always, but most of the time my now under strength assault squad will kill most of the Grey Hunters.
But if you factor in a decent overwatch, and decent counter-attack rolls, the assault squad generally pulls a PDF and dies to a man. I've found that you precede the charge with something the Grey Hunters generally can't melee to death (in some cases) like a dreadnought, assault marines fair far better but again, it sucks that I have to do that just to b able to use my army the way I want to. Grey Hunters are described as veterans, wizened to the ways of war and such, why is it that they keep their psychotic and death-seeking counter attack abilities they had when they were Blood Claws?
I like Space Wolves, a lot. They're the next army I'm going to build, but I can honestly say, I wouldn't mind having the GH's a bit less on the 'we're better than everyone' side of things.
I'm confused. How are grey hunters kicking your ass?
BA assault marines have two attacks plus a third one when charging. If you get red thirst or if a Sang priest is around you have furious charge. Also the unit should have three assault weapons in hand flamers, flamers, melta guns, or inferno pistols. Where the grey hunters list typically only has two special weapons as most are in groups of 10.
You shoot bolt pistols, assault weapons, chuck a grenade (why not its S6 instead of S4 bolt) and then assault. Your guns hit on 3s, and your melee attacks on 4s and your wounding on 3. The Grey Hunters (who didn't die to your shooting) overwatch hitting on 6s, then if they make a LD check they then get 3 melee attacks that hit on 4s and wound on 4s. Your then getting 5+ FNP for every failed 3+ save. You both have I4 and all the grenades so it doesn't matter if they are in cover or not.
I see very little here that says that a BA assault squad shouldn't win combat.
You know why my Grey Hunters are good? Because I attack with them. When they drop down, I shoot. If the other guy doesn't assault me, I damn well assault them. So I get all the shooting, I get the guarenteed bonus attack, and they never get any charge bonus that might apply to their army.
You have the exact same options for getting into combat as grey hunters to. Rhino, drop pod, Landraider. Yet you get to add in another - Decent of angels. And lets not forget your free razorback if you choose to hoof it. What does that thing shoot at all game. How-a-bout that Grey Hunter squad your about to assault and try to thin their lines just that much more.
Yes, 6th edition took the teeth out of the BA codex, but it did a number on a lot of other assault lists too. I just don't see how your failing as badly as you said.
I play against one Space Wolf player and it's generally back and forth but I've never annihilated a GH squad like you just spent your post saying I should. I know what my ASM's can do, I play the army, telling me all this doesn't change the fact that I've lost combats to GH's repeatedly. Perhaps it's just how my luck runs when I square off against Space Wolves, I don't know, but a consistent ass kicking by the same unit in every game they're fielded sort of makes you wonder. But, in the interest of keeping things on track...
If and when my SW force ever takes off fully, I'd like to field other units besides those required by the general meta. I'd like to see TWC, dreadnoughts, and more special characters being viable. The only unique character I've seen appear on the board has been Grimnar (lets face it, the guy is a beast), I want that to change.
As someone who runs BA pretty consistently I've found it frustrating to have my assault squads halved or worse the turn they charge. Not due to overwatch but to that counter-attack that every unit has, it's maddening to watch an army built specifically to do the assaulty thing get their gak kicked in by guys with rifles. Now, after they do their counter-attack thing and my guys have a chance to hit back, I can generally even the score, not always, but most of the time my now under strength assault squad will kill most of the Grey Hunters.
But if you factor in a decent overwatch, and decent counter-attack rolls, the assault squad generally pulls a PDF and dies to a man. I've found that you precede the charge with something the Grey Hunters generally can't melee to death (in some cases) like a dreadnought, assault marines fair far better but again, it sucks that I have to do that just to b able to use my army the way I want to. Grey Hunters are described as veterans, wizened to the ways of war and such, why is it that they keep their psychotic and death-seeking counter attack abilities they had when they were Blood Claws?
I like Space Wolves, a lot. They're the next army I'm going to build, but I can honestly say, I wouldn't mind having the GH's a bit less on the 'we're better than everyone' side of things.
I'm confused. How are grey hunters kicking your ass?
BA assault marines have two attacks plus a third one when charging. If you get red thirst or if a Sang priest is around you have furious charge. Also the unit should have three assault weapons in hand flamers, flamers, melta guns, or inferno pistols. Where the grey hunters list typically only has two special weapons as most are in groups of 10.
You shoot bolt pistols, assault weapons, chuck a grenade (why not its S6 instead of S4 bolt) and then assault. Your guns hit on 3s, and your melee attacks on 4s and your wounding on 3. The Grey Hunters (who didn't die to your shooting) overwatch hitting on 6s, then if they make a LD check they then get 3 melee attacks that hit on 4s and wound on 4s. Your then getting 5+ FNP for every failed 3+ save. You both have I4 and all the grenades so it doesn't matter if they are in cover or not.
I see very little here that says that a BA assault squad shouldn't win combat.
You know why my Grey Hunters are good? Because I attack with them. When they drop down, I shoot. If the other guy doesn't assault me, I damn well assault them. So I get all the shooting, I get the guarenteed bonus attack, and they never get any charge bonus that might apply to their army.
You have the exact same options for getting into combat as grey hunters to. Rhino, drop pod, Landraider. Yet you get to add in another - Decent of angels. And lets not forget your free razorback if you choose to hoof it. What does that thing shoot at all game. How-a-bout that Grey Hunter squad your about to assault and try to thin their lines just that much more.
Yes, 6th edition took the teeth out of the BA codex, but it did a number on a lot of other assault lists too. I just don't see how your failing as badly as you said.
Because you can't get a full ASM squad into combat against a good SW player. Descent of Angels is garbage and always has been. Non-drop pod deep striking is a horrible mechanic.
Grey Hunters have much better shooting in a shooting edition. You figure it out from there.
PLEASE Let Us Not Spend The Day Talking About How Much Better Grey Hunters Are Than Everyone Else!
Lets try to get beck what I tried to start yesterday: Dreadnaughts.
An attempt to get back on Subject: Dreadnaughts: I want them to be basically left alone, but with some minor things.
>Able to take a Second Power Fist
>Power Weapons as an option
>Wolf Claws an Option
>Venerable Dreadnaughts being able to Frost Weapons
>Björn getting either an extra Hull Point or a Belt of Russ [4++ Save]
>Björn getting his Wolf Claw back.
I sculpted the claws on to mine and use it a s power fist, to bring in a cool claw rule, so he gets shred, OR wolf claw like rules for rerolls to hits or wounds would be cool, At strength 7 and claws he could be a good monster/ daemon hunter, just like in Prospero Burns
Maybe the opportunity for Mortis builds or Iron-clads would be nice, throw on the extra armour and they could be fun to use
dantay_xv wrote: I sculpted the claws on to mine and use it a s power fist, to bring in a cool claw rule, so he gets shred, OR wolf claw like rules for rerolls to hits or wounds would be cool, At strength 7 and claws he could be a good monster/ daemon hunter, just like in Prospero Burns
Maybe the opportunity for Mortis builds or Iron-clads would be nice, throw on the extra armour and they could be fun to use
I have my orginal 2nd Edition lead Bjorn. I love him, if I loose the game I can bounce him off the head of my opponent and tell the TO I won, becouse my opponent had to go to Urgent Care.
My dreadnought which I run as Bjorn, the old metal one is now a regular dread,
Claw, plasma cannon and if I use it asa regular dread the shield represents extra armour
A quick tip, if you want a hand with a lightning claw effect, file the area flat where the metal claws are, and cut the 4 corners off of a sprue and voila you have the basic armature for dread fingers The wolf claw is just green stuff with some zombie scythe blades for the claws and a storm shield to tidy it up
Automatically Appended Next Post: BTW the finger thing I did to my netal Bjorn dread, this one has trygon prime mandibles for fingets
Automatically Appended Next Post: Sorry pictures for this are on photobucket not my dakka gallery.
I had mangled Bjorns claws in a small accident, so cut the stumps down, filed flat and filled he cavity with green stuff.
Then cut 4 corners from sprue like thiss.
And stuck on like so...
You an trim, cut as you see fit to make it more hand like but its is a good starting place... and all courtesy of my good friend on dakka, emissary1701
I play against one Space Wolf player and it's generally back and forth but I've never annihilated a GH squad like you just spent your post saying I should. I know what my ASM's can do, I play the army, telling me all this doesn't change the fact that I've lost combats to GH's repeatedly. Perhaps it's just how my luck runs when I square off against Space Wolves, I don't know, but a consistent ass kicking by the same unit in every game they're fielded sort of makes you wonder. But, in the interest of keeping things on track...
I said you should win combat, not annihilate. I'll give you that they are too good to get annihilated. Anyway, it could be that SW are your Achilles heel. Mine is Necrons. I haven't beaten a Necron army in who knows how long. Its always been a tie or a loss, regardless of what army faction or list I bring.
If and when my SW force ever takes off fully, I'd like to field other units besides those required by the general meta. I'd like to see TWC, dreadnoughts, and more special characters being viable. The only unique character I've seen appear on the board has been Grimnar (lets face it, the guy is a beast), I want that to change.
Thats the internet talking. TWC when taken in mass hurt badly. Ulrik is an awesome character to bring, but you have to work him into the list and play to his strengths, he is not a plug and play type character like so many others, and yeah, he could use a points drop. Dread need to be improved by giving them all the variants (except librarian dreads - I hate those things with a passion), but nothing in a codex will fix their performance under the core rules. Those need to change in order for dreads of any verity to be effective again.
I think they wanted to drop GH. GH are too good against other meqs and lesser codices and the same level of victimhood against Taudar as everyone else. That's the bottom line. With that.
I have postulated the same question in the BA thread: to balance for Taudar or not? If not, then I feel like the next 2-3 years is going to be a broken record. Everyone was hoping Tyranids would break the meta. LOL to that.
Martel732 wrote: I don't think Long Fangs need to be more expensive at all. You are already almost certainly going to get C:SM heavy weapon pricing. If you want MLs with flakk, that's going to be more than lascannons. They are a 5 man squad that die when the Eldar look at them the wrong way.
If they still have the ability to split fire that no other devastators have then they should be more expensive. Right now they are silly because they have cheaper weapons and cheaper base points costs yet can get one more heavy weapon, a special weapon for the squad leader AND split fire. It is things like this that lead the fact that there is zero balance in the game, especially for space marine armies that can much more easily be balanced with each other and aren't.
Anpu42 wrote: PLEASE Let Us Not Spend The Day Talking About How Much Better Grey Hunters Are Than Everyone Else!
Lets try to get beck what I tried to start yesterday: Dreadnaughts.
An attempt to get back on Subject: Dreadnaughts: I want them to be basically left alone, but with some minor things.
>Able to take a Second Power Fist
>Power Weapons as an option
>Wolf Claws an Option
>Venerable Dreadnaughts being able to Frost Weapons
>Björn getting either an extra Hull Point or a Belt of Russ [4++ Save]
>Björn getting his Wolf Claw back.
'I want my Dreadnoughts to be better than Space Marine Dreadnoughts in every way'.
Let's face it here if the main marine 'dex doesn't get it it's very unlikely that you will, we can't take two power fists or power weapons (though I wish we could), and Venerable is no longer a separate unit, it's literally a normal Dreadnought that can re-roll on the vehicle damage chart, if it doesn't get glanced to death first.
I also doubt GW are going to be pulling things back from 4th Edition, Björn is a minor character and probably won't get any better to be honest.
Martel.... With regards to Grey hunters, you say much better, we say they are different.
Just agree to disagree and let it drop please.
We are actually discussing everything but Grey Hunters, (dreadnoughts, characters and TWC) but you keep trying to drag it aroundLet it go!!
Go buy some new GW Knights and stomp Space Wolves with those!!
So far nobody is wishlisting for uber badass super grey hunters, infact we are looking around at the other fluffier stuff and wondering what could be fun to use.
So please stop.... just stop. And lesser codices will hopefully ge better with new codices..
So far nobody is wishlisting for uber badass super grey hunters, infact we are looking around at the other fluffier stuff and wondering what could be fun to use.
You already have them, so the constant defense of Grey Hunters as "only different" would, in my opinion, qualify as wishing for "über badass super Grey Hunters".
I play against one Space Wolf player and it's generally back and forth but I've never annihilated a GH squad like you just spent your post saying I should. I know what my ASM's can do, I play the army, telling me all this doesn't change the fact that I've lost combats to GH's repeatedly. Perhaps it's just how my luck runs when I square off against Space Wolves, I don't know, but a consistent ass kicking by the same unit in every game they're fielded sort of makes you wonder. But, in the interest of keeping things on track...
I said you should win combat, not annihilate. I'll give you that they are too good to get annihilated. Anyway, it could be that SW are your Achilles heel. Mine is Necrons. I haven't beaten a Necron army in who knows how long. Its always been a tie or a loss, regardless of what army faction or list I bring.
It certainly seems that way, I admit that given the odds I should be winning close combats, but I swear to you I can barely dent that damn army.
---------
As for dealing with Tau/Tau, Tau, TauDar with an updated Space Wolf codex, I don't think it'll be too hard. I've read/seen numerous lists and tactics that call for large amounts of drop pod troops to saturate a Tau gunline and even with their interceptor shenanigans the Tau are generally caught on their back foot the following turn. I mean, you can't really upgrade the shooting capabilities of the codex without truly breaking the entire damn thing...so I don't know really. Tau hate close combat and Space Wolves do it pretty well, couple that with some decent firepower and you could make something work.
I suppose you could give Wolf Guard access to Multi meltas or other heavy weapons if that would be worth it, make them relentless for drops if they take those weapons. But make it so they can't take terminator armor at all if they go that route. Have a RP access an ability akin to the ADL antenna so that drop pod based lists can show up earlier than normal? Who knows, am I even making sense?
@ almighty walrus No, we have pointed out that there are plenty of disadvantages to using them, or atleast tactics to mitigate their skill set, we have pointed out that they dont get some of the toys/abilities that other codex tactiical marines get, we have pointed out that like tactical marines they require a certin play style to get the best out of them, the same as using a tactical marine army etc etc and on and on and yadda yadda yadda....
I take it that you just like to ignore or gloss over most of what others have saiid... and coninue on your blinkered path of seeing only what you want to see.
And yes we defend the right to use grey hunters... not because they are uber badass, because they arent, they have a select skill set which they are good at... but because people like yourself and Martel keep unfairly maligning them as something they arent.
Can we go back to the topic of dreadnaughts please?
I would love for us to get Ironclads and Contemptor like dreads with Melee Weapon Choices
>Frost Weapons
>Power Weapons
>Wolf Claws
>Power Fist
>Chain Fist
>Thunder Hammers
>Possibly even Storm Shields
I would not even mind paying a premium for them like Wolf Guard, they would just be fluffy and look cool.
I don't understand why the dreadnoughts are limited on their weapon selections as is, I was under the impression that sort of stuff was universal as far as fluff reasons go.
I think a frost weapon option with a stormshield on a dread would look SOOO badass. Even with the obscene points cost for one I'd try to fit one in every time I played.
Frankenberry wrote: I don't understand why the dreadnoughts are limited on their weapon selections as is, I was under the impression that sort of stuff was universal as far as fluff reasons go.
I think a frost weapon option with a stormshield on a dread would look SOOO badass. Even with the obscene points cost for one I'd try to fit one in every time I played.
This could even repace one of Lone Wolves [PA, CCW, Storm Shield, MotW]
dantay_xv wrote: @ almighty walrus No, we have pointed out that there are plenty of disadvantages to using them, or atleast tactics to mitigate their skill set, we have pointed out that they dont get some of the toys/abilities that other codex tactiical marines get, we have pointed out that like tactical marines they require a certin play style to get the best out of them, the same as using a tactical marine army etc etc and on and on and yadda yadda yadda....
I take it that you just like to ignore or gloss over most of what others have saiid... and coninue on your blinkered path of seeing only what you want to see.
And yes we defend the right to use grey hunters... not because they are uber badass, because they arent, they have a select skill set which they are good at... but because people like yourself and Martel keep unfairly maligning them as something they arent.
Can we go back to the topic of dreadnaughts please?
You know what? This was the FIRST LINE of my post: "I think they wanted to drop GH."
But since you wanted to go back there, here we go.
"but because people like yourself and Martel keep unfairly maligning them as something they arent."
They are better than tactical marines in every way. Better weapons loadout. Better at HTH. What is the "play style" for tacticals you are talking about? What "play style" helps a unit that has crappy shooting and is helpless in HTH? What are these weaknesses you keep claiming? Because I scrolled back and I didn't see anything legitimate. And by "tactics to mitigate their abilities" you mean "don't ever think about assaulting them. Ever". How much should that ability cost? Unassaultable troops?
If you don't think GH are completely OP compared to other meqs, you are not looking at this objectively at all. I think all of your "disadvantages" are crap. In practice there are no disadvantages. Just benefits everyone else has to game around. Because Wolves.
Note that this is why SW are THE drop pod army. Because GH don't give a feth what they drop in next to. Genestealers? No problem. CSM? No problem. BA? No problem. Orks? Super duper no problem. All the Salamander fan boys can't get away with half the crap the SW can get away with.
As for dreadnoughts, you are not getting buffs for them that prevent them from being glanced out easily. There's not much more to discuss. There are two relevant questions in 6th: can it absorb lots of shooting? and does it shoot at lot itself? That answer is no to both of these for dreads, and so they are bad.
Martel732 wrote: I don't think Long Fangs need to be more expensive at all. You are already almost certainly going to get C:SM heavy weapon pricing. If you want MLs with flakk, that's going to be more than lascannons. They are a 5 man squad that die when the Eldar look at them the wrong way.
If they still have the ability to split fire that no other devastators have then they should be more expensive. Right now they are silly because they have cheaper weapons and cheaper base points costs yet can get one more heavy weapon, a special weapon for the squad leader AND split fire. It is things like this that lead the fact that there is zero balance in the game, especially for space marine armies that can much more easily be balanced with each other and aren't.
Skriker
I find myself massing so much fire against WS and Riptides that splitting fire is never in my wildest dreams. It might as well be a free ability.
Frankenberry wrote: I don't understand why the dreadnoughts are limited on their weapon selections as is, I was under the impression that sort of stuff was universal as far as fluff reasons go.
I think a frost weapon option with a stormshield on a dread would look SOOO badass. Even with the obscene points cost for one I'd try to fit one in every time I played.
This could even repace one of Lone Wolves [PA, CCW, Storm Shield, MotW]
Are you serious? A 3+ invuln Dreadnought?
If you want I can link you to my Dreadnought army page, there's some good ideas floating around on there.
Frankenberry wrote: I don't understand why the dreadnoughts are limited on their weapon selections as is, I was under the impression that sort of stuff was universal as far as fluff reasons go.
I think a frost weapon option with a stormshield on a dread would look SOOO badass. Even with the obscene points cost for one I'd try to fit one in every time I played.
This could even repace one of Lone Wolves [PA, CCW, Storm Shield, MotW]
Are you serious? A 3+ invuln Dreadnought?
If you want I can link you to my Dreadnought army page, there's some good ideas floating around on there.
These are Space Wolf players we are talking about.....
Frankenberry wrote: I don't understand why the dreadnoughts are limited on their weapon selections as is, I was under the impression that sort of stuff was universal as far as fluff reasons go.
I think a frost weapon option with a stormshield on a dread would look SOOO badass. Even with the obscene points cost for one I'd try to fit one in every time I played.
This could even repace one of Lone Wolves [PA, CCW, Storm Shield, MotW]
Are you serious? A 3+ invuln Dreadnought?
If you want I can link you to my Dreadnought army page, there's some good ideas floating around on there.
Yes a 300+ point Dread armed with a Frost Axe and no Ranged Weapons!
Frankenberry wrote: I don't understand why the dreadnoughts are limited on their weapon selections as is, I was under the impression that sort of stuff was universal as far as fluff reasons go.
I think a frost weapon option with a stormshield on a dread would look SOOO badass. Even with the obscene points cost for one I'd try to fit one in every time I played.
This could even repace one of Lone Wolves [PA, CCW, Storm Shield, MotW]
Are you serious? A 3+ invuln Dreadnought?
If you want I can link you to my Dreadnought army page, there's some good ideas floating around on there.
Yes a 300+ point Dread armed with a Frost Axe and no Ranged Weapons!
Frankenberry wrote: I don't understand why the dreadnoughts are limited on their weapon selections as is, I was under the impression that sort of stuff was universal as far as fluff reasons go.
I think a frost weapon option with a stormshield on a dread would look SOOO badass. Even with the obscene points cost for one I'd try to fit one in every time I played.
This could even repace one of Lone Wolves [PA, CCW, Storm Shield, MotW]
Are you serious? A 3+ invuln Dreadnought?
If you want I can link you to my Dreadnought army page, there's some good ideas floating around on there.
Yes a 300+ point Dread armed with a Frost Axe and no Ranged Weapons!
Martel732 wrote: Most dreads ranged weapons already don't matter.
Actually they can.
Podded Dreadnaughts:
>Multi-Melta: In a Pod kills most tanks
>Assault Cannon: With Storm Bolter or Heavy Flamer can is goo vs. Hordes and Transports
>Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter: Horde Killer
>Twin-Linked Heavy Flamer and a Heavy Flamer kills Scouts Dead.
The Rifleman Dread: >4x Twin linked Autocannons can do a number on Transports and even Flyers to a limited extent.
>I have also been playing with a Pure-Breed Rifleman with a Twin-Linked Autocannon and a Twin Linked Las Cannons. It can take of most things including tanks.
Mortis Dreadnaught: >Two Twin Linked Las Cannons make it a good Tank/MC hunter and even a passable Anti-Air Platform in emergencies.
>Two Missile Launchers are great for taking down Swarms and Transports.
>Twin Plasma Cannons make good 2+/MC Killers especially with a BS5.
Contemptor Dreadnaught: >2x Twin Linked Las cannons with Skyfire
Martel732 wrote: Most dreads ranged weapons already don't matter.
>Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter: Horde Killer
3 TWIN-LINKED SHOTS OH GOD SAVE ME FROM THE MASSIVE SQUAD OF 30 ORKS RUSHING UP THE BATTLEFIELD
I did not say it was Great, though I usualy kill 4 models a turn with mine, but I am just lucky that way.
How do you kill 4 models a turn with a twin-linked Heavy Bolter?
It has 3 shots...
And, you were arguing the viability of Dreadnought ranged weapons, and now you admit it's not great?
Martel732 wrote: Most dreads ranged weapons already don't matter.
Actually they can.
Podded Dreadnaughts:
>Multi-Melta: In a Pod kills most tanks
>Assault Cannon: With Storm Bolter or Heavy Flamer can is goo vs. Hordes and Transports
>Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter: Horde Killer
>Twin-Linked Heavy Flamer and a Heavy Flamer kills Scouts Dead.
The Rifleman Dread: >4x Twin linked Autocannons can do a number on Transports and even Flyers to a limited extent.
>I have also been playing with a Pure-Breed Rifleman with a Twin-Linked Autocannon and a Twin Linked Las Cannons. It can take of most things including tanks.
Mortis Dreadnaught: >Two Twin Linked Las Cannons make it a good Tank/MC hunter and even a passable Anti-Air Platform in emergencies.
>Two Missile Launchers are great for taking down Swarms and Transports.
>Twin Plasma Cannons make good 2+/MC Killers especially with a BS5.
Contemptor Dreadnaught: >2x Twin Linked Las cannons with Skyfire
Those loadouts are all very marginal firepower, with the exception skyfire lascannons. Do you ever stop to look at just how bad a single multi-melta really is?
Martel732 wrote: Most dreads ranged weapons already don't matter.
>Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter: Horde Killer
3 TWIN-LINKED SHOTS OH GOD SAVE ME FROM THE MASSIVE SQUAD OF 30 ORKS RUSHING UP THE BATTLEFIELD
I did not say it was Great, though I usualy kill 4 models a turn with mine, but I am just lucky that way.
You are seriously invalidating everything you say. Getting lucky is not a validation for a tactic. And claiming to kill 4 models with a 3 shot weapons is just... whatever.
Martel732 wrote: Most dreads ranged weapons already don't matter.
>Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter: Horde Killer
3 TWIN-LINKED SHOTS OH GOD SAVE ME FROM THE MASSIVE SQUAD OF 30 ORKS RUSHING UP THE BATTLEFIELD
I did not say it was Great, though I usualy kill 4 models a turn with mine, but I am just lucky that way.
How do you kill 4 models a turn with a twin-linked Heavy Bolter?
It has 3 shots...
And, you were arguing the viability of Dreadnought ranged weapons, and now you admit it's not great?
3 shots with the Heavy Bolter and 2 shots with the Storm Bolter.
As for viability, yes it is not great, but that is not the same as worthless.
I would state my Experiaces with it how it had done well with me, but that seems to not be a valid arugument becouse of the existance of Mathhammer. [And yes that was ment to be a snide coment]
Martel732 wrote: Most dreads ranged weapons already don't matter.
>Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter: Horde Killer
3 TWIN-LINKED SHOTS OH GOD SAVE ME FROM THE MASSIVE SQUAD OF 30 ORKS RUSHING UP THE BATTLEFIELD
I did not say it was Great, though I usualy kill 4 models a turn with mine, but I am just lucky that way.
How do you kill 4 models a turn with a twin-linked Heavy Bolter?
It has 3 shots...
And, you were arguing the viability of Dreadnought ranged weapons, and now you admit it's not great?
3 shots with the Heavy Bolter and 2 shots with the Storm Bolter.
As for viability, yes it is not great, but that is not the same as worthless.
I would state my Experiaces with it how it had done well with me, but that seems to not be a valid arugument becouse of the existance of Mathhammer. [And yes that was ment to be a snide coment]
You don't even play against competitive liists. Why are your experiences valid again? We've been over this. Over many games, mathhammer is always right. Whether you stomp your feet and claim otherwise or not. Dreads have negligible ranged capabilities. And if someone DID care, they'd just glance your dread out.
Martel732 wrote: Most dreads ranged weapons already don't matter.
>Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter: Horde Killer
3 TWIN-LINKED SHOTS OH GOD SAVE ME FROM THE MASSIVE SQUAD OF 30 ORKS RUSHING UP THE BATTLEFIELD
I did not say it was Great, though I usualy kill 4 models a turn with mine, but I am just lucky that way.
How do you kill 4 models a turn with a twin-linked Heavy Bolter?
It has 3 shots...
And, you were arguing the viability of Dreadnought ranged weapons, and now you admit it's not great?
3 shots with the Heavy Bolter and 2 shots with the Storm Bolter.
As for viability, yes it is not great, but that is not the same as worthless.
I would state my Experiaces with it how it had done well with me, but that seems to not be a valid arugument becouse of the existance of Mathhammer. [And yes that was ment to be a snide coment]
Your experiences don't mean diddly squat when you're faced with Mathhammer. The maths always comes out on top.
It's like me saying '6+ armour saves are better than 3+ armour saves because I get more lucky with a 6+'.
No, 3+ is better. And, you're killing 4 models with 5 shots? What are you killing, Gretchin? Because if it's anything with a 4+ armour save you're pretty much not gonna manage that.
Martel732 wrote: Most dreads ranged weapons already don't matter.
>Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter: Horde Killer
3 TWIN-LINKED SHOTS OH GOD SAVE ME FROM THE MASSIVE SQUAD OF 30 ORKS RUSHING UP THE BATTLEFIELD
I did not say it was Great, though I usualy kill 4 models a turn with mine, but I am just lucky that way.
How do you kill 4 models a turn with a twin-linked Heavy Bolter?
It has 3 shots...
And, you were arguing the viability of Dreadnought ranged weapons, and now you admit it's not great?
3 shots with the Heavy Bolter and 2 shots with the Storm Bolter.
As for viability, yes it is not great, but that is not the same as worthless.
I would state my Experiaces with it how it had done well with me, but that seems to not be a valid arugument becouse of the existance of Mathhammer. [And yes that was ment to be a snide coment]
Your experiences don't mean diddly squat when you're faced with Mathhammer. The maths always comes out on top.
It's like me saying '6+ armour saves are better than 3+ armour saves because I get more lucky with a 6+'.
No, 3+ is better. And, you're killing 4 models with 5 shots? What are you killing, Gretchin? Because if it's anything with a 4+ armour save you're pretty much not gonna manage that.
Usualy Orks and Also I usualy don't thow 1 Dread ves a Ork Mob.
Mathhammer also can nopt cover two things, the Randomness of a Battle and Tactics.
I can take my Two Fluffy Dreads
>Twin Linked Heavy Bolter and Storm Bolter
>Twin Linked Heavy Flamer and Heavy Flamer and take out a lot of Units in one Turn if I can work it right [and I have]
Then follow it up with an assualt. Usualy I can Assinate the Nob with the Flamers iof his is not up front, but even so it only takes me about two Assualt Phases to Finish off the Mob with a sweeping advance.
But I guess I neve do that becoue Mathhammer told me I can't
Martel732 wrote: Most dreads ranged weapons already don't matter.
>Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter: Horde Killer
3 TWIN-LINKED SHOTS OH GOD SAVE ME FROM THE MASSIVE SQUAD OF 30 ORKS RUSHING UP THE BATTLEFIELD
I did not say it was Great, though I usualy kill 4 models a turn with mine, but I am just lucky that way.
How do you kill 4 models a turn with a twin-linked Heavy Bolter?
It has 3 shots...
And, you were arguing the viability of Dreadnought ranged weapons, and now you admit it's not great?
3 shots with the Heavy Bolter and 2 shots with the Storm Bolter.
As for viability, yes it is not great, but that is not the same as worthless.
I would state my Experiaces with it how it had done well with me, but that seems to not be a valid arugument becouse of the existance of Mathhammer. [And yes that was ment to be a snide coment]
Your experiences don't mean diddly squat when you're faced with Mathhammer. The maths always comes out on top.
It's like me saying '6+ armour saves are better than 3+ armour saves because I get more lucky with a 6+'.
No, 3+ is better. And, you're killing 4 models with 5 shots? What are you killing, Gretchin? Because if it's anything with a 4+ armour save you're pretty much not gonna manage that.
Usualy Orks and Also I usualy don't thow 1 Dread ves a Ork Mob.
Mathhammer also can nopt cover two things, the Randomness of a Battle and Tactics.
I can take my Two Fluffy Dreads
>Twin Linked Heavy Bolter and Storm Bolter
>Twin Linked Heavy Flamer and Heavy Flamer and take out a lot of Units in one Turn if I can work it right [and I have]
Then follow it up with an assualt. Usualy I can Assinate the Nob with the Flamers iof his is not up front, but even so it only takes me about two Assualt Phases to Finish off the Mob with a sweeping advance.
But I guess I neve do that becoue Mathhammer told me I can't
We're not talking about assaulting over 2 turns.
We're talking about the viability of Dreadnoughts at range, and you've literally just said the only way you win is by assaulting them.
Orks.
The ones that can't hurt you in combat. To use another example, that's like me saying I charged a squad of Assault Terminators into a squad of Gretchin and won.
So the Ork player is sit there and let you do this? Tactics arguments go both ways. That's why we assume equal tactics and go with Mathhammer. Why haven't the Lootas reduced your dreads to piles of junk by now? Because they are good targets for Lootas.
It's clear that we are practically playing two different games here. You group allows list tailoring and don't play competitive lists. This is a critical difference when different people go to analyze the merits of any given unit.
This is also probably the reason that you don't understand how obnoxious GH are and why some people are a bit bent by the wish listing on this thread.
dantay_xv wrote: Unless you went mortis and had twin linked heavy bolters on each arm?
6 twin linked shots
He's talking a normal Dread, and even then he's not hitting all those HB shots.
Then he's only getting 66% wounds.
Then cover. I doubt that's 4 dead Orks.
dantay_xv wrote: It would be better with a flamestorm cannon on each arm, thyat would make your orks nice and toasty lol
BA have something similar. It's great against foot troops, but crap against a mech list. So, in a TAC list, do you risk it or not? That's a decision a lot of posters don't seem to be taking into account. They just magically have this dreadnought in a list against Orks. Personally, I wouldn't touch a SW dreadnought with a 10 meter pole.
So, yeah, changes we hope for with the new codex...
We can all agree that Jaws is going to get nuked into oblivion given the amount of rage that spell creates, so what would you all want to replace it? Buff spell? Another template?
I'd like to see Wolf priests worth taking, but I think that's a shot in the dark given the myriad of other things you can spend points on.
We can all agree that Jaws is going to get nuked into oblivion given the amount of rage that spell creates, so what would you all want to replace it? Buff spell? Another template?
I'd like to see Wolf priests worth taking, but I think that's a shot in the dark given the myriad of other things you can spend points on.
Take your CRB powers like everyone else. They can get divination, what else do you want? C:SM lost their null zone so why should the other chapters get special powers?
After all they are apothecaries aswell as chaplains, if they could give feel no pain to the unit they are assigned to as well as litanies of war that would be cool.
While I was working on something else I though about those games where I used the pair.
>I have never willing get into an Assault with Ork Mobs of more than 20 and never usually do thanks to Grey Hunters, Land Speeder Typhoons or Long Fangs. Though this should have little bearing on 6th Edition
>These game we during 5th were I could count on 2-5 Fearless Kills a Turn.
On the point of List Tailoring:
I say I am taking My Space Wolves
Billy Bob Says he is taking His Orks with Flyers
We make list, which is the extent of our list tailoring.
The extent of list tailoring for me is my friend asking what army I want to fight against.. He has a minimum 1500 points of each army in 40K, guard orks and eldar are many thousands and he has full battle companies of deathwing, ravenwing and dark angels.
Generally I say whatever he wants to use or I fancy horde busting, bring on the orks or nids...
We both go off write up armies and then exchange lists so we see what we each have taken and play.
And 80% of the time he wins,but I don't care because I have fun
dantay_xv wrote: I too would like Wolf priests to be worth taking.
After all they are apothecaries aswell as chaplains, if they could give feel no pain to the unit they are assigned to as well as litanies of war that would be cool.
My list tailoring is usually partial.
I'll have a TAC list and adapt it sort of towards whatever army I'll play, and they'll do the same.
Still doesn't stop me from knowing which units are good in a tournament environment though.
As far as Heavy Bolters go, I don’t know what to say, I like them and they like me.
I usually hit with them with my Marines, I usually Wound or Glance What I hit and my opponent seems to like to fail his saves against them.
Examples [And this keeps Happening to Me]
>My three Heavy Bolter Typhoon Land Speeders consistently kill one transport a turn and it is usually by glancing it to death with my Heavy Bolters [or at least the last Hull Point with one or two left over] rather than the Krak Missiles.
>My Long Fangs have a Single Heavy Bolter and consistently has the highest model count [both in Transports and Infantry] than the 2 Missile Launchers and 2 Las Cannons vs. Vehicles and MCs.
>My Heavy Bolter Dreadnaught usually had a better body count than Björn, but that might be a Target Priority thing.
On the subject of Björn: Something needs to be done with him, what I am not sure what. Like I stated earlier, he with need one more HP or a better save.
>Assault Cannon: This is the problem Weapon. To use it you have to get close and therefore killed rather quickly.
>Las-Cannon: This is a great choice, but it is a waste of his BS6.
>Plasma Cannon: My new Favorite weapon for him. His BS6 reduces the scatter to .5” [or less with the Re-Roll]. His BS6 also lets him Re-Roll that Gets Hot Roll and then he has the 5++ if that does not work.
Everything else on his is just fine though.
As for giving him a Drop Pod, not in 6th!
On Wolf Priest, they are worth taking right now. The Oath of War now works on Ranged and Melee Attacks. Put One with Long Fangs and take Oath of War: Vehicles or MC's and you are good to go. With Blood Claws, Grey Hunters or Wolf Guard, Oath of War: Infantry.
Haha no... why shoould Wolves have no apothecaries?
The fluff has always been there that they did both tasks and in the 4th rules they could take salves which meant you ignore the first wound or whatever.
Blood angels have apothecaries AND chaplains, so unless Space Wolves also get both, why shouldnt we get a person that does both.
At the correct points cost, the disadvantage for using the wolf priest is that you only need to kill 1 model to remove the boosts rather than 2 in a normal marine or blood angel or red scorpion army for example.
dantay_xv wrote: I too would like Wolf priests to be worth taking.
After all they are apothecaries aswell as chaplains, if they could give feel no pain to the unit they are assigned to as well as litanies of war that would be cool.
So Chaplains +1?
I think this would be ridiculous, like having a Librarian/Chaplain that could give Litanies as well as buff with psychic powers.
Anpu42 wrote: As far as Heavy Bolters go, I don’t know what to say, I like them and they like me.
I usually hit with them with my Marines, I usually Wound or Glance What I hit and my opponent seems to like to fail his saves against them.
Examples [And this keeps Happening to Me]
>My three Heavy Bolter Typhoon Land Speeders consistently kill one transport a turn and it is usually by glancing it to death with my Heavy Bolters [or at least the last Hull Point with one or two left over] rather than the Krak Missiles.
>My Long Fangs have a Single Heavy Bolter and consistently has the highest model count [both in Transports and Infantry] than the 2 Missile Launchers and 2 Las Cannons vs. Vehicles and MCs.
>My Heavy Bolter Dreadnaught usually had a better body count than Björn, but that might be a Target Priority thing.
On the subject of Björn: Something needs to be done with him, what I am not sure what. Like I stated earlier, he with need one more HP or a better save.
>Assault Cannon: This is the problem Weapon. To use it you have to get close and therefore killed rather quickly.
>Las-Cannon: This is a great choice, but it is a waste of his BS6.
>Plasma Cannon: My new Favorite weapon for him. His BS6 reduces the scatter to .5” [or less with the Re-Roll]. His BS6 also lets him Re-Roll that Gets Hot Roll and then he has the 5++ if that does not work.
Everything else on his is just fine though.
As for giving him a Drop Pod, not in 6th!
On Wolf Priest, they are worth taking right now. The Oath of War now works on Ranged and Melee Attacks. Put One with Long Fangs and take Oath of War: Vehicles or MC's and you are good to go. With Blood Claws, Grey Hunters or Wolf Guard, Oath of War: Infantry.
BrotherOfBone wrote: My list tailoring is usually partial.
I'll have a TAC list and adapt it sort of towards whatever army I'll play, and they'll do the same.
Still doesn't stop me from knowing which units are good in a tournament environment though.
That's not tailoring, because you don't know the exact opposition codex.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
dantay_xv wrote: Haha no... why shoould Wolves have no apothecaries?
The fluff has always been there that they did both tasks and in the 4th rules they could take salves which meant you ignore the first wound or whatever.
Blood angels have apothecaries AND chaplains, so unless Space Wolves also get both, why shouldnt we get a person that does both.
At the correct points cost, the disadvantage for using the wolf priest is that you only need to kill 1 model to remove the boosts rather than 2 in a normal marine or blood angel or red scorpion army for example.
That's called being more efficient, not a liability. That's why the so-called disadvantage of Long Fangs is not a big deal. Not being able to take worthless bolter marines is NOT a disadvantage.
Anpu42 wrote: As far as Heavy Bolters go, I don’t know what to say, I like them and they like me.
I usually hit with them with my Marines, I usually Wound or Glance What I hit and my opponent seems to like to fail his saves against them.
Examples [And this keeps Happening to Me]
>My three Heavy Bolter Typhoon Land Speeders consistently kill one transport a turn and it is usually by glancing it to death with my Heavy Bolters [or at least the last Hull Point with one or two left over] rather than the Krak Missiles.
>My Long Fangs have a Single Heavy Bolter and consistently has the highest model count [both in Transports and Infantry] than the 2 Missile Launchers and 2 Las Cannons vs. Vehicles and MCs.
>My Heavy Bolter Dreadnaught usually had a better body count than Björn, but that might be a Target Priority thing.
On the subject of Björn: Something needs to be done with him, what I am not sure what. Like I stated earlier, he with need one more HP or a better save.
>Assault Cannon: This is the problem Weapon. To use it you have to get close and therefore killed rather quickly.
>Las-Cannon: This is a great choice, but it is a waste of his BS6.
>Plasma Cannon: My new Favorite weapon for him. His BS6 reduces the scatter to .5” [or less with the Re-Roll]. His BS6 also lets him Re-Roll that Gets Hot Roll and then he has the 5++ if that does not work.
Everything else on his is just fine though.
As for giving him a Drop Pod, not in 6th!
On Wolf Priest, they are worth taking right now. The Oath of War now works on Ranged and Melee Attacks. Put One with Long Fangs and take Oath of War: Vehicles or MC's and you are good to go. With Blood Claws, Grey Hunters or Wolf Guard, Oath of War: Infantry.
dantay_xv wrote: Haha no... why shoould Wolves have no apothecaries?
The fluff has always been there that they did both tasks and in the 4th rules they could take salves which meant you ignore the first wound or whatever.
Blood angels have apothecaries AND chaplains, so unless Space Wolves also get both, why shouldnt we get a person that does both.
At the correct points cost, the disadvantage for using the wolf priest is that you only need to kill 1 model to remove the boosts rather than 2 in a normal marine or blood angel or red scorpion army for example.
So the drawback is that your guy that gives FnP, Hatred and Fearless can be killed just like anything else in the game? Yeah...
EDIT: The only ones who get to buy Apothecaries as standalone units are Blood Angels, and that's part of their schtick.
Anpu42 wrote: As far as Heavy Bolters go, I don’t know what to say, I like them and they like me.
I usually hit with them with my Marines, I usually Wound or Glance What I hit and my opponent seems to like to fail his saves against them.
Examples [And this keeps Happening to Me]
>My three Heavy Bolter Typhoon Land Speeders consistently kill one transport a turn and it is usually by glancing it to death with my Heavy Bolters [or at least the last Hull Point with one or two left over] rather than the Krak Missiles.
>My Long Fangs have a Single Heavy Bolter and consistently has the highest model count [both in Transports and Infantry] than the 2 Missile Launchers and 2 Las Cannons vs. Vehicles and MCs.
>My Heavy Bolter Dreadnaught usually had a better body count than Björn, but that might be a Target Priority thing.
On the subject of Björn: Something needs to be done with him, what I am not sure what. Like I stated earlier, he with need one more HP or a better save.
>Assault Cannon: This is the problem Weapon. To use it you have to get close and therefore killed rather quickly.
>Las-Cannon: This is a great choice, but it is a waste of his BS6.
>Plasma Cannon: My new Favorite weapon for him. His BS6 reduces the scatter to .5” [or less with the Re-Roll]. His BS6 also lets him Re-Roll that Gets Hot Roll and then he has the 5++ if that does not work.
Everything else on his is just fine though.
As for giving him a Drop Pod, not in 6th!
On Wolf Priest, they are worth taking right now. The Oath of War now works on Ranged and Melee Attacks. Put One with Long Fangs and take Oath of War: Vehicles or MC's and you are good to go. With Blood Claws, Grey Hunters or Wolf Guard, Oath of War: Infantry.
I have looked tham over, but I would have to talk to my group about using them.
Not saying you should use the army list as it's not even done, just some general improvements to the points costs of weapons and different ways to run a Dreadnought.
dantay_xv wrote: Haha no... why shoould Wolves have no apothecaries?
The fluff has always been there that they did both tasks and in the 4th rules they could take salves which meant you ignore the first wound or whatever.
Blood angels have apothecaries AND chaplains, so unless Space Wolves also get both, why shouldnt we get a person that does both.
At the correct points cost, the disadvantage for using the wolf priest is that you only need to kill 1 model to remove the boosts rather than 2 in a normal marine or blood angel or red scorpion army for example.
So the drawback is that your guy that gives FnP, Hatred and Fearless can be killed just like anything else in the game? Yeah...
Space Marines only get Apothecaries in Command Squads, so why should Space Wolves get a HQ that is both an Apothecary and a Chaplain?
I agree with the above ^
You're also forgetting that Blood Angles are all about Apothecaries and Chaplains. That's like a Blood Angels player complaining that they don't get Thunderwolf Cavalry.
Its just a thought wally & as if GW would listen to me anyways I thought it would be fluffy. As they are the flesh weavers of the Aett as well as the spiritual leaders, but there is nothing to show their duality within the game mechanics..
But I could see how your head would explode if a wolfpriest with his uber badass grey hunters showed up in 1 unit
Wolf priests are fine with the prefered enemy (choose) at the moment. maybe a points reduction to get them in line with other marine chaplains (only talking a 5 or 10 point drop).
Maybe the addition of thralls as wargear to wolf priests, giving 6+ FNP to the unit wouldn't be too bad. It would add to the model count of the unit, reducing its effectiveness if you want it in a transport.
I would like more Fenrisian wolves in the mix. Right now they can only be taken in packs, or purchased as wargear for lone wolves, lords or battle leaders.
I reckon this needs to be expanded to rune and wolf priests and long fang squad leaders. Maybe include a 0-5 option in grey hunters, wolf guard, long fangs, scouts and thunderwolf cavalry, to represent individual warriors being bonded to them as well as the lords.
Maybe the addition of thralls as wargear to wolf priests, giving 6+ FNP to the unit wouldn't be too bad. It would add to the model count of the unit, reducing its effectiveness if you want it in a transport.
Maybe the addition of thralls as wargear to wolf priests, giving 6+ FNP to the unit wouldn't be too bad. It would add to the model count of the unit, reducing its effectiveness if you want it in a transport.
Which is currently a BT thing.
I love how everyone is talking about giving SWs Crusader and 6+ FNP etc.
Way to make Black Templars more useless than they already are..
BrotherOfBone wrote: Space Marines only get Apothecaries in Command Squads, so why should Space Wolves get a HQ that is both an Apothecary and a Chaplain?
Because it's been that way through 5 editions and 20 years of Space Wolves being around. Wolf Priests have always been the Apothecaries.
If I wanted Codex Marines, I'd collect Codex Marines.
I don't necessarily want a Wolf Priest (game wise) to be an Apoth + a Chaplain rolled in to one model, give the Wolf Priest it's own abilities, make it balanced and worth taking and I'm happy. I'm mostly happy with how the Wolf Priest is at the moment.
DOOMONYOU wrote: Wolf priests are fine with the prefered enemy (choose) at the moment. maybe a points reduction to get them in line with other marine chaplains (only talking a 5 or 10 point drop).
Maybe the addition of thralls as wargear to wolf priests, giving 6+ FNP to the unit wouldn't be too bad. It would add to the model count of the unit, reducing its effectiveness if you want it in a transport.
I like that as a concept.
I would like more Fenrisian wolves in the mix. Right now they can only be taken in packs, or purchased as wargear for lone wolves, lords or battle leaders.
I reckon this needs to be expanded to rune and wolf priests and long fang squad leaders. Maybe include a 0-5 option in grey hunters, wolf guard, long fangs, scouts and thunderwolf cavalry, to represent individual warriors being bonded to them as well as the lords.
I never did understand why Wolf Priest could take Saga of the Wolfkin, but not take Wolves. As for adding them to other units…Thunderwolf Cavalry, Long Fangs and Wolf Guard I like, not as much the Grey Hunters.
BrotherOfBone wrote: Space Marines only get Apothecaries in Command Squads, so why should Space Wolves get a HQ that is both an Apothecary and a Chaplain?
Because it's been that way through 5 editions and 20 years of Space Wolves being around. Wolf Priests have always been the Apothecaries.
If I wanted Codex Marines, I'd collect Codex Marines.
I don't necessarily want a Wolf Priest (game wise) to be an Apoth + a Chaplain rolled in to one model, give the Wolf Priest it's own abilities, make it balanced and worth taking and I'm happy. I'm mostly happy with how the Wolf Priest is at the moment.
What people want is an Apoth+Chappy in one unit, which I think is ridiculous.
What you're asking for is called 'reasonable', something some people might want to learn on this forum.
Chill BOB. Its not everyone, so far just me for fnp and 1 person mentioned thrallss... which I thionk would be meh, I always thought thralls as being defenders so they stayed in the Aett or on the ships to help heal or defend.
Wolf Priests would I believe generally oversee the Blood Claws as teyt are still coming through their training, so need the guidance and cool head.
I would consider ALLYING with Guard and using them as thralls, but again for fluff reasons, such as recreating the battle of the fang or say Armageddon troops from the 1st battle of Armageddon
DOOMONYOU wrote: Wolf priests are fine with the prefered enemy (choose) at the moment. maybe a points reduction to get them in line with other marine chaplains (only talking a 5 or 10 point drop).
Maybe the addition of thralls as wargear to wolf priests, giving 6+ FNP to the unit wouldn't be too bad. It would add to the model count of the unit, reducing its effectiveness if you want it in a transport.
I like that as a concept.
I would like more Fenrisian wolves in the mix. Right now they can only be taken in packs, or purchased as wargear for lone wolves, lords or battle leaders.
I reckon this needs to be expanded to rune and wolf priests and long fang squad leaders. Maybe include a 0-5 option in grey hunters, wolf guard, long fangs, scouts and thunderwolf cavalry, to represent individual warriors being bonded to them as well as the lords.
I never did understand why Wolf Priest could take Saga of the Wolfkin, but not take Wolves. As for adding them to other units…Thunderwolf Cavalry, Long Fangs and Wolf Guard I like, not as much the Grey Hunters.
Dreadnaughts should get counter attack
Great then Martel can complain that they are OP.
'Plz make my Chaplain HQ better in combat by allowing him to take Thralls, something which are only available to an overpriced BT special character who has had them since 4th edition and also make him better by letting him take Wolves'
Dreadnoughts should not get counter attack, stop trying to make SW Dreadnoughts better than SM Dreadnoughts, it defeats the purpose of codex balance.
It would affect balance if they had extra stuff and were costed as normal dreads, but if they pay the points cost and are more expensive why couldnt they have it, and when I mentioned the apoth, chappy wolf priest, I also said at a reasonable points cost too... I dont expect that if we got this level of customisability that it would all be free!
Neither does anyoe else here.
dantay_xv wrote: It would affect balance if they had extra stuff and were costed as normal dreads, but if they pay the points cost and are more expensive why couldnt they have it, and when I mentioned the apoth, chappy wolf priest, I also said at a reasonable points cost too... I dont expect that if we got this level of customisability that it would all be free!
Neither does anyoe else here.
You realize that your proposal is making your model count smaller and smaller.
dantay_xv wrote: It would affect balance if they had extra stuff and were costed as normal dreads, but if they pay the points cost and are more expensive why couldnt they have it, and when I mentioned the apoth, chappy wolf priest, I also said at a reasonable points cost too... I dont expect that if we got this level of customisability that it would all be free!
Neither does anyoe else here.
You're getting more out of your slots, is what I'm making clear here.
Instead of taking a Sanguiniary Priest (Elites Slot) and a Chaplain (Elites Slot) or a High Chaplain guy (HQ Slot) you want to take a Wolf Priest that do both jobs in 1 HQ Slot.
There's also the fact that putting the points of something up doesn't make it fair to have in the Codex. I could put a Primarch in a Codex and say 'well the points cost is up to scratch, so that's okay right?'
DOOMONYOU wrote: Wolf priests are fine with the prefered enemy (choose) at the moment. maybe a points reduction to get them in line with other marine chaplains (only talking a 5 or 10 point drop).
Maybe the addition of thralls as wargear to wolf priests, giving 6+ FNP to the unit wouldn't be too bad. It would add to the model count of the unit, reducing its effectiveness if you want it in a transport.
I like that as a concept.
I would like more Fenrisian wolves in the mix. Right now they can only be taken in packs, or purchased as wargear for lone wolves, lords or battle leaders.
I reckon this needs to be expanded to rune and wolf priests and long fang squad leaders. Maybe include a 0-5 option in grey hunters, wolf guard, long fangs, scouts and thunderwolf cavalry, to represent individual warriors being bonded to them as well as the lords.
I never did understand why Wolf Priest could take Saga of the Wolfkin, but not take Wolves. As for adding them to other units…Thunderwolf Cavalry, Long Fangs and Wolf Guard I like, not as much the Grey Hunters.
Dreadnaughts should get counter attack
Great then Martel can complain that they are OP.
'Plz make my Chaplain HQ better in combat by allowing him to take Thralls, something which are only available to an overpriced BT special character who has had them since 4th edition and also make him better by letting him take Wolves'
Dreadnoughts should not get counter attack, stop trying to make SW Dreadnoughts better than SM Dreadnoughts, it defeats the purpose of codex balance.
I have no issue with them being better in the same way Wolf Guard Terminators are better than Space Marine Terminators.
In thier raw simple form they are Cheeper with a Multi-Melta and a Power Weapon, but Add in an Assualt Cannon and a Frost Weapon or Chain Fist they become much more expesive.
Yes, so? It would lead to a more characterful thematic army with a bias towards what they were always intended to do. Be a more specialised fluffy slightly elite army.
DOOMONYOU wrote: Wolf priests are fine with the prefered enemy (choose) at the moment. maybe a points reduction to get them in line with other marine chaplains (only talking a 5 or 10 point drop).
Maybe the addition of thralls as wargear to wolf priests, giving 6+ FNP to the unit wouldn't be too bad. It would add to the model count of the unit, reducing its effectiveness if you want it in a transport.
I like that as a concept.
I would like more Fenrisian wolves in the mix. Right now they can only be taken in packs, or purchased as wargear for lone wolves, lords or battle leaders.
I reckon this needs to be expanded to rune and wolf priests and long fang squad leaders. Maybe include a 0-5 option in grey hunters, wolf guard, long fangs, scouts and thunderwolf cavalry, to represent individual warriors being bonded to them as well as the lords.
I never did understand why Wolf Priest could take Saga of the Wolfkin, but not take Wolves. As for adding them to other units…Thunderwolf Cavalry, Long Fangs and Wolf Guard I like, not as much the Grey Hunters.
Dreadnaughts should get counter attack
Great then Martel can complain that they are OP.
'Plz make my Chaplain HQ better in combat by allowing him to take Thralls, something which are only available to an overpriced BT special character who has had them since 4th edition and also make him better by letting him take Wolves'
Dreadnoughts should not get counter attack, stop trying to make SW Dreadnoughts better than SM Dreadnoughts, it defeats the purpose of codex balance.
I have no issue with them being better in the same way Wolf Guard Terminators are better than Space Marine Terminators.
In thier raw simple form they are Cheeper with a Multi-Melta and a Power Weapon, but Add in an Assualt Cannon and a Frost Weapon or Chain Fist they become much more expesive.
See my above point.
Just putting the points cost up doesn't make it fair, and you're still packing more punch per slot than normal SMs.
All you're asking for here is far more customisability than normal SMs for every choice. You want more on your Dreads, different wargear on your HQs, better characters and all this.
And of course they're going to be more expensive with a Chain Fist. That's like saying.
Oh yes well my Space Marine may be cheaper than your Grey Hunter but when I give him this lascannon he gets way more expensive! That's fair, right? RIGHT GUYS??
dantay_xv wrote: Yes, so? It would lead to a more characterful thematic army with a bias towards what they were always intended to do. Be a more specialised fluffy slightly elite army.
But you're not asking to be specialized, you're asking to be more customizable than normal marines.
To have Storm Shields and Frost Axes, Power Weapons etc. on your Dreadnoughts.
That's not being specialized, that's wanting the pick of everything. If you wanted to be specialized then you'd forgo ranged entirely and have pure combat options on your Dreadnoughts, and all that.
Even your main infantry is unspecialized, Grey Hunters have everything. Boltgun, Boltpistol, Combat Weapons, Grenades...
dantay_xv wrote: Yes, so? It would lead to a more characterful thematic army with a bias towards what they were always intended to do. Be a more specialised fluffy slightly elite army.
As opposed to every other Space Marine army, which is supposed to be what, exactly?
I didnt ask for that Anpu did, I model them on anyway and just use them as regular stuff... because it gives the models more flavour.
And all those things you listed to go on the dreadnought are Assault not ranged weapons.
So yes fine, take all the guns away, you know what having a hardcore berserker dreadnought would be fun and fluffy.
And IWND would come via how? Wouldnt I need an Iron Priest or a n allie Forge father or something?
dantay_xv wrote: I didnt ask for that Anpu did, I model them on anyway and just use them as regular stuff... because it gives the models more flavour.
And all those things you listed to go on the dreadnought are Assault not ranged weapons.
So yes fine, take all the guns away, you know what having a hardcore berserker dreadnought would be fun and fluffy.
And IWND would come via how? Wouldnt I need an Iron Priest or a n allie Forge father or something?
You agreed with him when he said they should get Storm Shields and Frost Axes.
And, yes I know, your point is..?
Space Wolves have always been an "Elite" Army.
Yes we want a lot of customization and we are willing to pay for it both with cash and points. Look at the Wolf Guard, most of us “Fluffy” Space Wolf players don’t complain that a Wolf Guard Terminator pays 63 points to get a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield; we just pay the cost an move on. We also are more concerned about how cool it looks more than how efficient it is.
The “Competitive Player” usually does not complain about the price, but just chooses not to take the “Expensive” Toys.
You will see the difference with the list building.
>”Competitive Players” are going to take Rune Priest, Grey Hunters and Long Fangs or Thunderwolf Cavalry [though I think TWC has dropped in usage as 6th move along]
>”Fluffy Players” still take the above, but we also take Blood Claws of all types, Lone Wolves and Lots of Special Characters.
Yes Points do become the issue and a balance with the “Fluffy Players”. It can also be for the competitive Player.
Lets assume they we get a Dreadnaught that can take a Frost Axe and a Storm Shield with the current Price.
That would be 140 points without anything else. it no long has shooting so new we have to add a Drop Pod, now 175 points. if you want to be able to hit things in melee on a 3+, that is a Wolf Tooth Necklace or Venerable, taking the cheaper we are now 185 points [225 as a Venerable].
On the table no mater how you do it can not make a single Attack until Turn 2 Minimum for a model that can be killed by a single shot if you failed your save vs. a S7 Weapon or taken out by weight of fire from S6 Weapons just like any Storm Shield Armed Terminator. You can also tie it up for a turn or two with 10 conscripts lead by a Priest for a turn.
All of this for 3 S8 AP2 Attacks a Turn.
dantay_xv wrote: Because I thought he was considering an all dreadnought army, like the lists you were linking?
Well I would love to do that, that does not feel compleatly right. Having someone like a MotF that allow you to take them as Elites or Heavys would be nice.
Anpu42 wrote: Space Wolves have always been an "Elite" Army.
Yes we want a lot of customization and we are willing to pay for it both with cash and points. Look at the Wolf Guard, most of us “Fluffy” Space Wolf players don’t complain that a Wolf Guard Terminator pays 63 points to get a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield; we just pay the cost an move on. We also are more concerned about how cool it looks more than how efficient it is.
The “Competitive Player” usually does not complain about the price, but just chooses not to take the “Expensive” Toys.
You will see the difference with the list building.
>”Competitive Players” are going to take Rune Priest, Grey Hunters and Long Fangs or Thunderwolf Cavalry [though I think TWC has dropped in usage as 6th move along]
>”Fluffy Players” still take the above, but we also take Blood Claws of all types, Lone Wolves and Lots of Special Characters.
Yes Points do become the issue and a balance with the “Fluffy Players”. It can also be for the competitive Player.
Lets assume they we get a Dreadnaught that can take a Frost Axe and a Storm Shield with the current Price.
That would be 140 points without anything else. it no long has shooting so new we have to add a Drop Pod, now 175 points. if you want to be able to hit things in melee on a 3+, that is a Wolf Tooth Necklace or Venerable, taking the cheaper we are now 185 points [225 as a Venerable].
On the table no mater how you do it can not make a single Attack until Turn 2 Minimum for a model that can be killed by a single shot if you failed your save vs. a S7 Weapon or taken out by weight of fire from S6 Weapons just like any Storm Shield Armed Terminator. You can also tie it up for a turn or two with 10 conscripts lead by a Priest for a turn.
All of this for 3 S8 AP2 Attacks a Turn.
You say 'we' as if every single Space Wolf player ever is exactly like you, don't paint with such broad strokes.
Also, yes 3 S8 AP2 attacks per turn... With a 3+ Invuln save (better than any vehicle in the game as far as I know), with 3 Hull Points.
And yes it can bet killed by a single shot with a S7 weapon, but that is very, very, very unlikely.
And, great. It can be tied up by 10 conscripts, just like every other MC/walker ever. You state the weaknesses of this as if they're specific to you when they're specific to the unit type. It's like saying 'oh yes my horde dies to flamers'. Unlike every other horde. And you also don't seem to want to recognize the strengths of the unit, maybe you think if you play it up to be bad then it'll be more acceptable.
No. Just no, seriously. Most things can't make an attack until Turn 2 anyway, unless you have serious ranged firepower, and it still has a 3+ invuln and hits on a 3+ in melee, which is better than any other dreadnought, even Bjorn himself.
You're also forgetting to remove the cost of the Power Fist and Multimelta he comes with, which is about 25pts. So we're talking 160pts for a 3+ invuln, 3 HP walker with 3 attacks that hits on Strength 8 AP2 (I forget what other effect the Frost Axe has). And that's with it in a drop pod.
dantay_xv wrote: I agree, the only time to put so many dreads in 1 place would be a monster apoc game, again take battle of the fang for instance.
Competitively it woud be suicide to take so many dreads with little else.
Apart from that it would be priceless to see you oppo's face though as a wave of dreads swept into him (or her)
We did that with a Spearhead game once, one guy feilded like 9 of them. It was fun to watch the ork Player's face as I feilded two Sternguards loaded on Land Raiders.
dantay_xv wrote: Because I thought he was considering an all dreadnought army, like the lists you were linking?
Well I would love to do that, that does not feel compleatly right. Having someone like a MotF that allow you to take them as Elites or Heavys would be nice.
These were being used as examples to improve current Dreadnoughts. Disregard any fluff/other stuff you may find in there.
Anpu42 wrote: Space Wolves have always been an "Elite" Army.
Yes we want a lot of customization and we are willing to pay for it both with cash and points. Look at the Wolf Guard, most of us “Fluffy” Space Wolf players don’t complain that a Wolf Guard Terminator pays 63 points to get a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield; we just pay the cost an move on. We also are more concerned about how cool it looks more than how efficient it is.
The “Competitive Player” usually does not complain about the price, but just chooses not to take the “Expensive” Toys.
You will see the difference with the list building.
>”Competitive Players” are going to take Rune Priest, Grey Hunters and Long Fangs or Thunderwolf Cavalry [though I think TWC has dropped in usage as 6th move along]
>”Fluffy Players” still take the above, but we also take Blood Claws of all types, Lone Wolves and Lots of Special Characters.
Yes Points do become the issue and a balance with the “Fluffy Players”. It can also be for the competitive Player.
Lets assume they we get a Dreadnaught that can take a Frost Axe and a Storm Shield with the current Price.
That would be 140 points without anything else. it no long has shooting so new we have to add a Drop Pod, now 175 points. if you want to be able to hit things in melee on a 3+, that is a Wolf Tooth Necklace or Venerable, taking the cheaper we are now 185 points [225 as a Venerable].
On the table no mater how you do it can not make a single Attack until Turn 2 Minimum for a model that can be killed by a single shot if you failed your save vs. a S7 Weapon or taken out by weight of fire from S6 Weapons just like any Storm Shield Armed Terminator. You can also tie it up for a turn or two with 10 conscripts lead by a Priest for a turn.
All of this for 3 S8 AP2 Attacks a Turn.
You say 'we' as if every single Space Wolf player ever is exactly like you, don't paint with such broad strokes.
Also, yes 3 S8 AP2 attacks per turn... With a 3+ Invuln save (better than any vehicle in the game as far as I know), with 3 Hull Points.
And yes it can bet killed by a single shot with a S7 weapon, but that is very, very, very unlikely.
And, great. It can be tied up by 10 conscripts, just like every other MC/walker ever. You state the weaknesses of this as if they're specific to you when they're specific to the unit type. It's like saying 'oh yes my horde dies to flamers'. Unlike every other horde. And you also don't seem to want to recognize the strengths of the unit, maybe you think if you play it up to be bad then it'll be more acceptable.
No. Just no, seriously. Most things can't make an attack until Turn 2 anyway, unless you have serious ranged firepower, and it still has a 3+ invuln and hits on a 3+ in melee, which is better than any other dreadnought, even Bjorn himself.
You're also forgetting to remove the cost of the Power Fist and Multimelta he comes with, which is about 25pts. So we're talking 160pts for a 3+ invuln, 3 HP walker with 3 attacks that hits on Strength 8 AP2 (I forget what other effect the Frost Axe has). And that's with it in a drop pod.
What I used wat the Wolf Guard Weapon upgrade points cost, and unless they make replaceing the weapons for free seemd resonable.
The point I was trying to make is that it would noe be Efficiant to make it. Yes a 3++ on a Vehicle would be nasy, but not unbeatble.
I would rather have this as an option rather than a MC or Mini Knight.
Anpu42 wrote: Space Wolves have always been an "Elite" Army.
Yes we want a lot of customization and we are willing to pay for it both with cash and points. Look at the Wolf Guard, most of us “Fluffy” Space Wolf players don’t complain that a Wolf Guard Terminator pays 63 points to get a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield; we just pay the cost an move on. We also are more concerned about how cool it looks more than how efficient it is.
The “Competitive Player” usually does not complain about the price, but just chooses not to take the “Expensive” Toys.
You will see the difference with the list building.
>”Competitive Players” are going to take Rune Priest, Grey Hunters and Long Fangs or Thunderwolf Cavalry [though I think TWC has dropped in usage as 6th move along]
>”Fluffy Players” still take the above, but we also take Blood Claws of all types, Lone Wolves and Lots of Special Characters.
Yes Points do become the issue and a balance with the “Fluffy Players”. It can also be for the competitive Player.
Lets assume they we get a Dreadnaught that can take a Frost Axe and a Storm Shield with the current Price.
That would be 140 points without anything else. it no long has shooting so new we have to add a Drop Pod, now 175 points. if you want to be able to hit things in melee on a 3+, that is a Wolf Tooth Necklace or Venerable, taking the cheaper we are now 185 points [225 as a Venerable].
On the table no mater how you do it can not make a single Attack until Turn 2 Minimum for a model that can be killed by a single shot if you failed your save vs. a S7 Weapon or taken out by weight of fire from S6 Weapons just like any Storm Shield Armed Terminator. You can also tie it up for a turn or two with 10 conscripts lead by a Priest for a turn.
All of this for 3 S8 AP2 Attacks a Turn.
You say 'we' as if every single Space Wolf player ever is exactly like you, don't paint with such broad strokes.
Also, yes 3 S8 AP2 attacks per turn... With a 3+ Invuln save (better than any vehicle in the game as far as I know), with 3 Hull Points.
And yes it can bet killed by a single shot with a S7 weapon, but that is very, very, very unlikely.
And, great. It can be tied up by 10 conscripts, just like every other MC/walker ever. You state the weaknesses of this as if they're specific to you when they're specific to the unit type. It's like saying 'oh yes my horde dies to flamers'. Unlike every other horde. And you also don't seem to want to recognize the strengths of the unit, maybe you think if you play it up to be bad then it'll be more acceptable.
No. Just no, seriously. Most things can't make an attack until Turn 2 anyway, unless you have serious ranged firepower, and it still has a 3+ invuln and hits on a 3+ in melee, which is better than any other dreadnought, even Bjorn himself.
You're also forgetting to remove the cost of the Power Fist and Multimelta he comes with, which is about 25pts. So we're talking 160pts for a 3+ invuln, 3 HP walker with 3 attacks that hits on Strength 8 AP2 (I forget what other effect the Frost Axe has). And that's with it in a drop pod.
What I used wat the Wolf Guard Weapon upgrade points cost, and unless they make replaceing the weapons for free seemd resonable.
The point I was trying to make is that it would noe be Efficiant to make it. Yes a 3++ on a Vehicle would be nasy, but not unbeatble.
I would rather have this as an option rather than a MC or Mini Knight.
People would just take Storm Shield and a Dreadnought CCW and go and kick ass. Considering people take Dreads anyway, the Storm Shield would only take them into the realm of borderline overpowered.
And, good for you. Space Marines don't get MCs (DA, BA, SW, BT AND SMs not GK) so you can rely on that one, and I doubt you'll get a Mini Knight. GK already have one of those.
You'll mostly likely receive some sort of new infantry kit, not that you need it. Maybe a flyer.
Anpu42 wrote: Space Wolves have always been an "Elite" Army.
Yes we want a lot of customization and we are willing to pay for it both with cash and points. Look at the Wolf Guard, most of us “Fluffy” Space Wolf players don’t complain that a Wolf Guard Terminator pays 63 points to get a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield; we just pay the cost an move on. We also are more concerned about how cool it looks more than how efficient it is.
The “Competitive Player” usually does not complain about the price, but just chooses not to take the “Expensive” Toys.
You will see the difference with the list building.
>”Competitive Players” are going to take Rune Priest, Grey Hunters and Long Fangs or Thunderwolf Cavalry [though I think TWC has dropped in usage as 6th move along]
>”Fluffy Players” still take the above, but we also take Blood Claws of all types, Lone Wolves and Lots of Special Characters.
Yes Points do become the issue and a balance with the “Fluffy Players”. It can also be for the competitive Player.
Lets assume they we get a Dreadnaught that can take a Frost Axe and a Storm Shield with the current Price.
That would be 140 points without anything else. it no long has shooting so new we have to add a Drop Pod, now 175 points. if you want to be able to hit things in melee on a 3+, that is a Wolf Tooth Necklace or Venerable, taking the cheaper we are now 185 points [225 as a Venerable].
On the table no mater how you do it can not make a single Attack until Turn 2 Minimum for a model that can be killed by a single shot if you failed your save vs. a S7 Weapon or taken out by weight of fire from S6 Weapons just like any Storm Shield Armed Terminator. You can also tie it up for a turn or two with 10 conscripts lead by a Priest for a turn.
All of this for 3 S8 AP2 Attacks a Turn.
You say 'we' as if every single Space Wolf player ever is exactly like you, don't paint with such broad strokes.
Also, yes 3 S8 AP2 attacks per turn... With a 3+ Invuln save (better than any vehicle in the game as far as I know), with 3 Hull Points.
And yes it can bet killed by a single shot with a S7 weapon, but that is very, very, very unlikely.
And, great. It can be tied up by 10 conscripts, just like every other MC/walker ever. You state the weaknesses of this as if they're specific to you when they're specific to the unit type. It's like saying 'oh yes my horde dies to flamers'. Unlike every other horde. And you also don't seem to want to recognize the strengths of the unit, maybe you think if you play it up to be bad then it'll be more acceptable.
No. Just no, seriously. Most things can't make an attack until Turn 2 anyway, unless you have serious ranged firepower, and it still has a 3+ invuln and hits on a 3+ in melee, which is better than any other dreadnought, even Bjorn himself.
You're also forgetting to remove the cost of the Power Fist and Multimelta he comes with, which is about 25pts. So we're talking 160pts for a 3+ invuln, 3 HP walker with 3 attacks that hits on Strength 8 AP2 (I forget what other effect the Frost Axe has). And that's with it in a drop pod.
What I used wat the Wolf Guard Weapon upgrade points cost, and unless they make replaceing the weapons for free seemd resonable.
The point I was trying to make is that it would noe be Efficiant to make it. Yes a 3++ on a Vehicle would be nasy, but not unbeatble.
I would rather have this as an option rather than a MC or Mini Knight.
People would just take Storm Shield and a Dreadnought CCW and go and kick ass. Considering people take Dreads anyway, the Storm Shield would only take them into the realm of borderline overpowered.
And, good for you. Space Marines don't get MCs (DA, BA, SW, BT AND SMs not GK) so you can rely on that one, and I doubt you'll get a Mini Knight. GK already have one of those.
You'll mostly likely receive some sort of new infantry kit, not that you need it. Maybe a flyer.
Well either that or make that options for Assualt Centrurions if we get them
Anpu42 wrote: Space Wolves have always been an "Elite" Army.
Yes we want a lot of customization and we are willing to pay for it both with cash and points. Look at the Wolf Guard, most of us “Fluffy” Space Wolf players don’t complain that a Wolf Guard Terminator pays 63 points to get a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield; we just pay the cost an move on. We also are more concerned about how cool it looks more than how efficient it is.
The “Competitive Player” usually does not complain about the price, but just chooses not to take the “Expensive” Toys.
You will see the difference with the list building.
>”Competitive Players” are going to take Rune Priest, Grey Hunters and Long Fangs or Thunderwolf Cavalry [though I think TWC has dropped in usage as 6th move along]
>”Fluffy Players” still take the above, but we also take Blood Claws of all types, Lone Wolves and Lots of Special Characters.
Yes Points do become the issue and a balance with the “Fluffy Players”. It can also be for the competitive Player.
Lets assume they we get a Dreadnaught that can take a Frost Axe and a Storm Shield with the current Price.
That would be 140 points without anything else. it no long has shooting so new we have to add a Drop Pod, now 175 points. if you want to be able to hit things in melee on a 3+, that is a Wolf Tooth Necklace or Venerable, taking the cheaper we are now 185 points [225 as a Venerable].
On the table no mater how you do it can not make a single Attack until Turn 2 Minimum for a model that can be killed by a single shot if you failed your save vs. a S7 Weapon or taken out by weight of fire from S6 Weapons just like any Storm Shield Armed Terminator. You can also tie it up for a turn or two with 10 conscripts lead by a Priest for a turn.
All of this for 3 S8 AP2 Attacks a Turn.
You say 'we' as if every single Space Wolf player ever is exactly like you, don't paint with such broad strokes.
Also, yes 3 S8 AP2 attacks per turn... With a 3+ Invuln save (better than any vehicle in the game as far as I know), with 3 Hull Points.
And yes it can bet killed by a single shot with a S7 weapon, but that is very, very, very unlikely.
And, great. It can be tied up by 10 conscripts, just like every other MC/walker ever. You state the weaknesses of this as if they're specific to you when they're specific to the unit type. It's like saying 'oh yes my horde dies to flamers'. Unlike every other horde. And you also don't seem to want to recognize the strengths of the unit, maybe you think if you play it up to be bad then it'll be more acceptable.
No. Just no, seriously. Most things can't make an attack until Turn 2 anyway, unless you have serious ranged firepower, and it still has a 3+ invuln and hits on a 3+ in melee, which is better than any other dreadnought, even Bjorn himself.
You're also forgetting to remove the cost of the Power Fist and Multimelta he comes with, which is about 25pts. So we're talking 160pts for a 3+ invuln, 3 HP walker with 3 attacks that hits on Strength 8 AP2 (I forget what other effect the Frost Axe has). And that's with it in a drop pod.
What I used wat the Wolf Guard Weapon upgrade points cost, and unless they make replaceing the weapons for free seemd resonable.
The point I was trying to make is that it would noe be Efficiant to make it. Yes a 3++ on a Vehicle would be nasy, but not unbeatble.
I would rather have this as an option rather than a MC or Mini Knight.
People would just take Storm Shield and a Dreadnought CCW and go and kick ass. Considering people take Dreads anyway, the Storm Shield would only take them into the realm of borderline overpowered.
And, good for you. Space Marines don't get MCs (DA, BA, SW, BT AND SMs not GK) so you can rely on that one, and I doubt you'll get a Mini Knight. GK already have one of those.
You'll mostly likely receive some sort of new infantry kit, not that you need it. Maybe a flyer.
Well either that or make that options for Assualt Centrurions if we get them
Why would you ever do that.
They're just.. Bad. Taking Storm Shields and Frost Axes won't improve how crap they are at getting across the board, and it won't improve the lack of attacks they get.
Anpu42 wrote: Space Wolves have always been an "Elite" Army.
Yes we want a lot of customization and we are willing to pay for it both with cash and points. Look at the Wolf Guard, most of us “Fluffy” Space Wolf players don’t complain that a Wolf Guard Terminator pays 63 points to get a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield; we just pay the cost an move on. We also are more concerned about how cool it looks more than how efficient it is.
The “Competitive Player” usually does not complain about the price, but just chooses not to take the “Expensive” Toys.
You will see the difference with the list building.
>”Competitive Players” are going to take Rune Priest, Grey Hunters and Long Fangs or Thunderwolf Cavalry [though I think TWC has dropped in usage as 6th move along]
>”Fluffy Players” still take the above, but we also take Blood Claws of all types, Lone Wolves and Lots of Special Characters.
Yes Points do become the issue and a balance with the “Fluffy Players”. It can also be for the competitive Player.
Lets assume they we get a Dreadnaught that can take a Frost Axe and a Storm Shield with the current Price.
That would be 140 points without anything else. it no long has shooting so new we have to add a Drop Pod, now 175 points. if you want to be able to hit things in melee on a 3+, that is a Wolf Tooth Necklace or Venerable, taking the cheaper we are now 185 points [225 as a Venerable].
On the table no mater how you do it can not make a single Attack until Turn 2 Minimum for a model that can be killed by a single shot if you failed your save vs. a S7 Weapon or taken out by weight of fire from S6 Weapons just like any Storm Shield Armed Terminator. You can also tie it up for a turn or two with 10 conscripts lead by a Priest for a turn.
All of this for 3 S8 AP2 Attacks a Turn.
You say 'we' as if every single Space Wolf player ever is exactly like you, don't paint with such broad strokes.
Also, yes 3 S8 AP2 attacks per turn... With a 3+ Invuln save (better than any vehicle in the game as far as I know), with 3 Hull Points.
And yes it can bet killed by a single shot with a S7 weapon, but that is very, very, very unlikely.
And, great. It can be tied up by 10 conscripts, just like every other MC/walker ever. You state the weaknesses of this as if they're specific to you when they're specific to the unit type. It's like saying 'oh yes my horde dies to flamers'. Unlike every other horde. And you also don't seem to want to recognize the strengths of the unit, maybe you think if you play it up to be bad then it'll be more acceptable.
No. Just no, seriously. Most things can't make an attack until Turn 2 anyway, unless you have serious ranged firepower, and it still has a 3+ invuln and hits on a 3+ in melee, which is better than any other dreadnought, even Bjorn himself.
You're also forgetting to remove the cost of the Power Fist and Multimelta he comes with, which is about 25pts. So we're talking 160pts for a 3+ invuln, 3 HP walker with 3 attacks that hits on Strength 8 AP2 (I forget what other effect the Frost Axe has). And that's with it in a drop pod.
What I used wat the Wolf Guard Weapon upgrade points cost, and unless they make replaceing the weapons for free seemd resonable.
The point I was trying to make is that it would noe be Efficiant to make it. Yes a 3++ on a Vehicle would be nasy, but not unbeatble.
I would rather have this as an option rather than a MC or Mini Knight.
People would just take Storm Shield and a Dreadnought CCW and go and kick ass. Considering people take Dreads anyway, the Storm Shield would only take them into the realm of borderline overpowered.
And, good for you. Space Marines don't get MCs (DA, BA, SW, BT AND SMs not GK) so you can rely on that one, and I doubt you'll get a Mini Knight. GK already have one of those.
You'll mostly likely receive some sort of new infantry kit, not that you need it. Maybe a flyer.
Well either that or make that options for Assualt Centrurions if we get them
Why would you ever do that.
They're just.. Bad. Taking Storm Shields and Frost Axes won't improve how crap they are at getting across the board, and it won't improve the lack of attacks they get.
Because they would look cool on the table top.
Also adding Logan to the mix you can give them Relentless letting any of them with Ranged Weapons Overwatch Fire.
Anpu42 wrote: Space Wolves have always been an "Elite" Army.
Yes we want a lot of customization and we are willing to pay for it both with cash and points. Look at the Wolf Guard, most of us “Fluffy” Space Wolf players don’t complain that a Wolf Guard Terminator pays 63 points to get a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield; we just pay the cost an move on. We also are more concerned about how cool it looks more than how efficient it is.
The “Competitive Player” usually does not complain about the price, but just chooses not to take the “Expensive” Toys.
You will see the difference with the list building.
>”Competitive Players” are going to take Rune Priest, Grey Hunters and Long Fangs or Thunderwolf Cavalry [though I think TWC has dropped in usage as 6th move along]
>”Fluffy Players” still take the above, but we also take Blood Claws of all types, Lone Wolves and Lots of Special Characters.
Yes Points do become the issue and a balance with the “Fluffy Players”. It can also be for the competitive Player.
Lets assume they we get a Dreadnaught that can take a Frost Axe and a Storm Shield with the current Price.
That would be 140 points without anything else. it no long has shooting so new we have to add a Drop Pod, now 175 points. if you want to be able to hit things in melee on a 3+, that is a Wolf Tooth Necklace or Venerable, taking the cheaper we are now 185 points [225 as a Venerable].
On the table no mater how you do it can not make a single Attack until Turn 2 Minimum for a model that can be killed by a single shot if you failed your save vs. a S7 Weapon or taken out by weight of fire from S6 Weapons just like any Storm Shield Armed Terminator. You can also tie it up for a turn or two with 10 conscripts lead by a Priest for a turn.
All of this for 3 S8 AP2 Attacks a Turn.
You say 'we' as if every single Space Wolf player ever is exactly like you, don't paint with such broad strokes.
Also, yes 3 S8 AP2 attacks per turn... With a 3+ Invuln save (better than any vehicle in the game as far as I know), with 3 Hull Points.
And yes it can bet killed by a single shot with a S7 weapon, but that is very, very, very unlikely.
And, great. It can be tied up by 10 conscripts, just like every other MC/walker ever. You state the weaknesses of this as if they're specific to you when they're specific to the unit type. It's like saying 'oh yes my horde dies to flamers'. Unlike every other horde. And you also don't seem to want to recognize the strengths of the unit, maybe you think if you play it up to be bad then it'll be more acceptable.
No. Just no, seriously. Most things can't make an attack until Turn 2 anyway, unless you have serious ranged firepower, and it still has a 3+ invuln and hits on a 3+ in melee, which is better than any other dreadnought, even Bjorn himself.
You're also forgetting to remove the cost of the Power Fist and Multimelta he comes with, which is about 25pts. So we're talking 160pts for a 3+ invuln, 3 HP walker with 3 attacks that hits on Strength 8 AP2 (I forget what other effect the Frost Axe has). And that's with it in a drop pod.
What I used wat the Wolf Guard Weapon upgrade points cost, and unless they make replaceing the weapons for free seemd resonable.
The point I was trying to make is that it would noe be Efficiant to make it. Yes a 3++ on a Vehicle would be nasy, but not unbeatble.
I would rather have this as an option rather than a MC or Mini Knight.
People would just take Storm Shield and a Dreadnought CCW and go and kick ass. Considering people take Dreads anyway, the Storm Shield would only take them into the realm of borderline overpowered.
And, good for you. Space Marines don't get MCs (DA, BA, SW, BT AND SMs not GK) so you can rely on that one, and I doubt you'll get a Mini Knight. GK already have one of those.
You'll mostly likely receive some sort of new infantry kit, not that you need it. Maybe a flyer.
Well either that or make that options for Assualt Centrurions if we get them
Why would you ever do that.
They're just.. Bad. Taking Storm Shields and Frost Axes won't improve how crap they are at getting across the board, and it won't improve the lack of attacks they get.
Because they would look cool on the table top.
Also adding Logan to the mix you can give them Relentless letting any of them with Ranged Weapons Overwatch Fire.
Anpu42 wrote: Space Wolves have always been an "Elite" Army.
Yes we want a lot of customization and we are willing to pay for it both with cash and points. Look at the Wolf Guard, most of us “Fluffy” Space Wolf players don’t complain that a Wolf Guard Terminator pays 63 points to get a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield; we just pay the cost an move on. We also are more concerned about how cool it looks more than how efficient it is.
The “Competitive Player” usually does not complain about the price, but just chooses not to take the “Expensive” Toys.
You will see the difference with the list building.
>”Competitive Players” are going to take Rune Priest, Grey Hunters and Long Fangs or Thunderwolf Cavalry [though I think TWC has dropped in usage as 6th move along]
>”Fluffy Players” still take the above, but we also take Blood Claws of all types, Lone Wolves and Lots of Special Characters.
Yes Points do become the issue and a balance with the “Fluffy Players”. It can also be for the competitive Player.
Lets assume they we get a Dreadnaught that can take a Frost Axe and a Storm Shield with the current Price.
That would be 140 points without anything else. it no long has shooting so new we have to add a Drop Pod, now 175 points. if you want to be able to hit things in melee on a 3+, that is a Wolf Tooth Necklace or Venerable, taking the cheaper we are now 185 points [225 as a Venerable].
On the table no mater how you do it can not make a single Attack until Turn 2 Minimum for a model that can be killed by a single shot if you failed your save vs. a S7 Weapon or taken out by weight of fire from S6 Weapons just like any Storm Shield Armed Terminator. You can also tie it up for a turn or two with 10 conscripts lead by a Priest for a turn.
All of this for 3 S8 AP2 Attacks a Turn.
You say 'we' as if every single Space Wolf player ever is exactly like you, don't paint with such broad strokes.
Also, yes 3 S8 AP2 attacks per turn... With a 3+ Invuln save (better than any vehicle in the game as far as I know), with 3 Hull Points.
And yes it can bet killed by a single shot with a S7 weapon, but that is very, very, very unlikely.
And, great. It can be tied up by 10 conscripts, just like every other MC/walker ever. You state the weaknesses of this as if they're specific to you when they're specific to the unit type. It's like saying 'oh yes my horde dies to flamers'. Unlike every other horde. And you also don't seem to want to recognize the strengths of the unit, maybe you think if you play it up to be bad then it'll be more acceptable.
No. Just no, seriously. Most things can't make an attack until Turn 2 anyway, unless you have serious ranged firepower, and it still has a 3+ invuln and hits on a 3+ in melee, which is better than any other dreadnought, even Bjorn himself.
You're also forgetting to remove the cost of the Power Fist and Multimelta he comes with, which is about 25pts. So we're talking 160pts for a 3+ invuln, 3 HP walker with 3 attacks that hits on Strength 8 AP2 (I forget what other effect the Frost Axe has). And that's with it in a drop pod.
What I used wat the Wolf Guard Weapon upgrade points cost, and unless they make replaceing the weapons for free seemd resonable.
The point I was trying to make is that it would noe be Efficiant to make it. Yes a 3++ on a Vehicle would be nasy, but not unbeatble.
I would rather have this as an option rather than a MC or Mini Knight.
People would just take Storm Shield and a Dreadnought CCW and go and kick ass. Considering people take Dreads anyway, the Storm Shield would only take them into the realm of borderline overpowered.
And, good for you. Space Marines don't get MCs (DA, BA, SW, BT AND SMs not GK) so you can rely on that one, and I doubt you'll get a Mini Knight. GK already have one of those.
You'll mostly likely receive some sort of new infantry kit, not that you need it. Maybe a flyer.
Well either that or make that options for Assualt Centrurions if we get them
Why would you ever do that.
They're just.. Bad. Taking Storm Shields and Frost Axes won't improve how crap they are at getting across the board, and it won't improve the lack of attacks they get.
Because they would look cool on the table top.
Also adding Logan to the mix you can give them Relentless letting any of them with Ranged Weapons Overwatch Fire.
They'd still be Slow and Purposeful, so no.
They're also Assault Centurions. They don't come with ranged weapons, they come with Siege Drills.
I don't like how you say you could take a unit because it looks cool, as it wouldn't actually even look good. Baby blue, static half-dreadnoughts with tiny thunder hammers and storm shields with yellow and red decals...
No thanks.
Anpu42 wrote: Space Wolves have always been an "Elite" Army.
Yes we want a lot of customization and we are willing to pay for it both with cash and points. Look at the Wolf Guard, most of us “Fluffy” Space Wolf players don’t complain that a Wolf Guard Terminator pays 63 points to get a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield; we just pay the cost an move on. We also are more concerned about how cool it looks more than how efficient it is.
The “Competitive Player” usually does not complain about the price, but just chooses not to take the “Expensive” Toys.
You will see the difference with the list building.
>”Competitive Players” are going to take Rune Priest, Grey Hunters and Long Fangs or Thunderwolf Cavalry [though I think TWC has dropped in usage as 6th move along]
>”Fluffy Players” still take the above, but we also take Blood Claws of all types, Lone Wolves and Lots of Special Characters.
Yes Points do become the issue and a balance with the “Fluffy Players”. It can also be for the competitive Player.
Lets assume they we get a Dreadnaught that can take a Frost Axe and a Storm Shield with the current Price.
That would be 140 points without anything else. it no long has shooting so new we have to add a Drop Pod, now 175 points. if you want to be able to hit things in melee on a 3+, that is a Wolf Tooth Necklace or Venerable, taking the cheaper we are now 185 points [225 as a Venerable].
On the table no mater how you do it can not make a single Attack until Turn 2 Minimum for a model that can be killed by a single shot if you failed your save vs. a S7 Weapon or taken out by weight of fire from S6 Weapons just like any Storm Shield Armed Terminator. You can also tie it up for a turn or two with 10 conscripts lead by a Priest for a turn.
All of this for 3 S8 AP2 Attacks a Turn.
You say 'we' as if every single Space Wolf player ever is exactly like you, don't paint with such broad strokes.
Also, yes 3 S8 AP2 attacks per turn... With a 3+ Invuln save (better than any vehicle in the game as far as I know), with 3 Hull Points.
And yes it can bet killed by a single shot with a S7 weapon, but that is very, very, very unlikely.
And, great. It can be tied up by 10 conscripts, just like every other MC/walker ever. You state the weaknesses of this as if they're specific to you when they're specific to the unit type. It's like saying 'oh yes my horde dies to flamers'. Unlike every other horde. And you also don't seem to want to recognize the strengths of the unit, maybe you think if you play it up to be bad then it'll be more acceptable.
No. Just no, seriously. Most things can't make an attack until Turn 2 anyway, unless you have serious ranged firepower, and it still has a 3+ invuln and hits on a 3+ in melee, which is better than any other dreadnought, even Bjorn himself.
You're also forgetting to remove the cost of the Power Fist and Multimelta he comes with, which is about 25pts. So we're talking 160pts for a 3+ invuln, 3 HP walker with 3 attacks that hits on Strength 8 AP2 (I forget what other effect the Frost Axe has). And that's with it in a drop pod.
What I used wat the Wolf Guard Weapon upgrade points cost, and unless they make replaceing the weapons for free seemd resonable.
The point I was trying to make is that it would noe be Efficiant to make it. Yes a 3++ on a Vehicle would be nasy, but not unbeatble.
I would rather have this as an option rather than a MC or Mini Knight.
People would just take Storm Shield and a Dreadnought CCW and go and kick ass. Considering people take Dreads anyway, the Storm Shield would only take them into the realm of borderline overpowered.
And, good for you. Space Marines don't get MCs (DA, BA, SW, BT AND SMs not GK) so you can rely on that one, and I doubt you'll get a Mini Knight. GK already have one of those.
You'll mostly likely receive some sort of new infantry kit, not that you need it. Maybe a flyer.
Well either that or make that options for Assualt Centrurions if we get them
Why would you ever do that.
They're just.. Bad. Taking Storm Shields and Frost Axes won't improve how crap they are at getting across the board, and it won't improve the lack of attacks they get.
Because they would look cool on the table top.
Also adding Logan to the mix you can give them Relentless letting any of them with Ranged Weapons Overwatch Fire.
They'd still be Slow and Purposeful, so no.
They're also Assault Centurions. They don't come with ranged weapons, they come with Siege Drills.
I don't like how you say you could take a unit because it looks cool, as it wouldn't actually even look good. Baby blue, static half-dreadnoughts with tiny thunder hammers and storm shields with yellow and red decals...
No thanks.
Still have meltas/flamers and bolters, and "cool-looking" is a subjective term.
Well either that or make that options for Assault Centurions if we get them
Why would you ever do that.
They're just.. Bad. Taking Storm Shields and Frost Axes won't improve how crap they are at getting across the board, and it won't improve the lack of attacks they get.
Because they would look cool on the table top.
Also adding Logan to the mix you can give them Relentless letting any of them with Ranged Weapons Overwatch Fire.
They'd still be Slow and Purposeful, so no.
Yes you are right [Heresy on Dakka, I agreed with someone about a ruling]
Just read the Rule again, it is one of those wording things and it of been nice if you said so rather than just No.
Anpu42 wrote: Space Wolves have always been an "Elite" Army.
Yes we want a lot of customization and we are willing to pay for it both with cash and points. Look at the Wolf Guard, most of us “Fluffy” Space Wolf players don’t complain that a Wolf Guard Terminator pays 63 points to get a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield; we just pay the cost an move on. We also are more concerned about how cool it looks more than how efficient it is.
The “Competitive Player” usually does not complain about the price, but just chooses not to take the “Expensive” Toys.
You will see the difference with the list building.
>”Competitive Players” are going to take Rune Priest, Grey Hunters and Long Fangs or Thunderwolf Cavalry [though I think TWC has dropped in usage as 6th move along]
>”Fluffy Players” still take the above, but we also take Blood Claws of all types, Lone Wolves and Lots of Special Characters.
Yes Points do become the issue and a balance with the “Fluffy Players”. It can also be for the competitive Player.
Lets assume they we get a Dreadnaught that can take a Frost Axe and a Storm Shield with the current Price.
That would be 140 points without anything else. it no long has shooting so new we have to add a Drop Pod, now 175 points. if you want to be able to hit things in melee on a 3+, that is a Wolf Tooth Necklace or Venerable, taking the cheaper we are now 185 points [225 as a Venerable].
On the table no mater how you do it can not make a single Attack until Turn 2 Minimum for a model that can be killed by a single shot if you failed your save vs. a S7 Weapon or taken out by weight of fire from S6 Weapons just like any Storm Shield Armed Terminator. You can also tie it up for a turn or two with 10 conscripts lead by a Priest for a turn.
All of this for 3 S8 AP2 Attacks a Turn.
You say 'we' as if every single Space Wolf player ever is exactly like you, don't paint with such broad strokes.
Also, yes 3 S8 AP2 attacks per turn... With a 3+ Invuln save (better than any vehicle in the game as far as I know), with 3 Hull Points.
And yes it can bet killed by a single shot with a S7 weapon, but that is very, very, very unlikely.
And, great. It can be tied up by 10 conscripts, just like every other MC/walker ever. You state the weaknesses of this as if they're specific to you when they're specific to the unit type. It's like saying 'oh yes my horde dies to flamers'. Unlike every other horde. And you also don't seem to want to recognize the strengths of the unit, maybe you think if you play it up to be bad then it'll be more acceptable.
No. Just no, seriously. Most things can't make an attack until Turn 2 anyway, unless you have serious ranged firepower, and it still has a 3+ invuln and hits on a 3+ in melee, which is better than any other dreadnought, even Bjorn himself.
You're also forgetting to remove the cost of the Power Fist and Multimelta he comes with, which is about 25pts. So we're talking 160pts for a 3+ invuln, 3 HP walker with 3 attacks that hits on Strength 8 AP2 (I forget what other effect the Frost Axe has). And that's with it in a drop pod.
What I used wat the Wolf Guard Weapon upgrade points cost, and unless they make replaceing the weapons for free seemd resonable.
The point I was trying to make is that it would noe be Efficiant to make it. Yes a 3++ on a Vehicle would be nasy, but not unbeatble.
I would rather have this as an option rather than a MC or Mini Knight.
People would just take Storm Shield and a Dreadnought CCW and go and kick ass. Considering people take Dreads anyway, the Storm Shield would only take them into the realm of borderline overpowered.
And, good for you. Space Marines don't get MCs (DA, BA, SW, BT AND SMs not GK) so you can rely on that one, and I doubt you'll get a Mini Knight. GK already have one of those.
You'll mostly likely receive some sort of new infantry kit, not that you need it. Maybe a flyer.
Well either that or make that options for Assualt Centrurions if we get them
Why would you ever do that.
They're just.. Bad. Taking Storm Shields and Frost Axes won't improve how crap they are at getting across the board, and it won't improve the lack of attacks they get.
Because they would look cool on the table top.
Also adding Logan to the mix you can give them Relentless letting any of them with Ranged Weapons Overwatch Fire.
They'd still be Slow and Purposeful, so no.
They're also Assault Centurions. They don't come with ranged weapons, they come with Siege Drills.
I don't like how you say you could take a unit because it looks cool, as it wouldn't actually even look good. Baby blue, static half-dreadnoughts with tiny thunder hammers and storm shields with yellow and red decals...
No thanks.
Still have meltas/flamers and bolters, and "cool-looking" is a subjective term.
They're also Assault Centurions. They don't come with ranged weapons, they come with Siege Drills.
I don't like how you say you could take a unit because it looks cool, as it wouldn't actually even look good. Baby blue, static half-dreadnoughts with tiny thunder hammers and storm shields with yellow and red decals...
No thanks.
Well to me they are cool looking and to me that is what is important. If you don’t think they look cool, that is cool for you.
To each their own.
And mine are either White or Periwinkle, no Baby Blue
Actually as for Centurions I have mixed feelings.
>The Modeling Side: Yes, I love the look of them and could easily be made Wolfy
>The Fluff Side: Yes, I can see them being part of the Space Wolves
>The Codex/Rules Side: No, it just does not feel right, that whole copy paste thing.
This will most likely happen, though I don't want to see it for the Grey Hunters unless they git rid of the free 2nd weapon.
- Balancing/Removing the "I WIN!" buttons (like Jaws, and 24" Dispel bubble)
I expext Jaws to vanish or become 2 Charges forcing people to pay 25/50 point to have a chance to get to use it.
Dropping the 24" bubble to 12" would only realy work if they got rid of the double HQ bit. Otherwize people will just double up on the Rune. Priest
The dispel bubble needs to become a bonus to Deny the Witch. Either that or the Rune priest needs to be double the price of a librarian to get that effect. It is completely unhinged atm.
I'd like to see a points drop on the Blood Claws OR make them more survivable to get into & get through an assault, a bit like a proper berserker.
Give me a reason to make shields or stick dwarf shields on them and yell Fenrys Hjolda as they charge across the board.
Keep Skyclaws more or less as they are, because I find them a fun unit to play with.
Prepearing to get flamed here, but I would like the Swift Claw bikes to get some sort of jink save or something, to reflect their madcap. berserker.. basically orky mentality towards getting into a scrap.
dantay_xv wrote: I'd like to see a points drop on the Blood Claws OR make them more survivable to get into & get through an assault, a bit like a proper berserker.
Give me a reason to make shields or stick dwarf shields on them and yell Fenrys Hjolda as they charge across the board.
I like the idea of giving them Combat Shields or replacing their Bolt Pistol with a War Shield [5++ Save]
Keep Skyclaws more or less as they are, because I find them a fun unit to play with.
With a Points drop and the ability to take Wolf Guard Pack Leaders
Preparing to get flamed here, but I would like the Swift Claw bikes to get some sort of Jink save or something, to reflect their madcap berserker. Basically Orky mentality towards getting into a scrap.
Giving something a jink save only makes them better against lists that you don't need help against. Tau don't care about your cover, and Eldar will wound spam it, and Daemons are going to either HTH with MCs or spam S5 AP low shots and overwhelm the jink save.
The jink save would best against other meq lists and other lists like DE that would be relying on low AP shots to kill these guys. SW are already overpowering against other meq lists and practically everyone else not in the top tier of codices.
I'm not saying Swift Claws shouldn't have some better incentive to take them, but jink is not the answer.
Martel732 wrote: Giving something a jink save only makes them better against lists that you don't need help against. Tau don't care about your cover, and Eldar will wound spam it, and Daemons are going to either HTH with MCs or spam S5 AP low shots and overwhelm the jink save.
The jink save would best against other meq lists and other lists like DE that would be relying on low AP shots to kill these guys. SW are already overpowering against other meq lists and practically everyone else not in the top tier of codices.
I'm not saying Swift Claws shouldn't have some better incentive to take them, but jink is not the answer.
Yes you are right, but you are not listening to what we are saying.
1] There is nothing that can be done with the Tau/Eldar Codex’s, that daemon has already been let out of the bottle.
2] That means the fix has to done with new Codex’s like the Blood Angels.
3] We need to stop whining about how good Tau/Eldar are and work on what We can Do About it.
Okay, Martel. I'll take the bait What do you think should be the incentive?
For me I would like to bulk out Engir Krakendooms company.. I already have 3 swift claw packs, but them having lower than a marines WS and LD 8 sees them getting beat and running away too often to be reliable.
What would you do tomake the Swift Claws more enticing to use, but not OP?
Probably the first thing I'd play test is give Swift Claws C:SM biker pricing. Then, since SW are supposed to be punchy, I'd give them 2 hammer of wrath hits instead of one, and even FC on top to boot that affects their hammer of wrath hits. That way, you generate a ton of STR 5 hits that are a legit threat to T6 MCs due to the great number of attacks. I might also limit them to a single special or something to show that they are punchy, not shooty. If you cause enough damage, you aren't going to be beat and so LD won't matter.
There is incentive to take this unit over the counter attackers because they get beefed on the assault, not receiving assaults.
I actually really like that idea Martel, I will need to look up furious charge. And look at the codices to see what the points costs are like
It also puts the emphasis on the SW player to be aggressive too.
You would still need to take counter attackers as they are scoring units.
Martel732 wrote: Probably the first thing I'd play test is give Swift Claws C:SM biker pricing. Then, since SW are supposed to be punchy, I'd give them 2 hammer of wrath hits instead of one, and even FC on top to boot that affects their hammer of wrath hits. That way, you generate a ton of STR 5 hits that are a legit threat to T6 MCs due to the great number of attacks. I might also limit them to a single special or something to show that they are punchy, not shooty. If you cause enough damage, you aren't going to be beat and so LD won't matter.
There is incentive to take this unit over the counter attackers because they get beefed on the assault, not receiving assaults.
Agreed on this, the only problem with giving them (I'm talking units of 5 bikers) 10 STR5 hits is that they're going to completely muller MEQ. I wouldn't give them specials (ranged) as they're intended to be close combat, but probably the ability to take them with two power weapons/one power weapon and one power fist (similar to Crusader Squads).
dantay_xv wrote: I actually really like that idea Martel, I will need to look up furious charge. And look at the codices to see what the points costs are like
It also puts the emphasis on the SW player to be aggressive too.
You would still need to take counter attackers as they are scoring units.
But I do like your idea
I try to be fair when suggesting things to actually make *fixes*. This version of the swift claw requires some movement and tactical acumen to use properly. It rewards aggressive play, the opposite of the grey hunter.
Martel732 wrote: Probably the first thing I'd play test is give Swift Claws C:SM biker pricing. Then, since SW are supposed to be punchy, I'd give them 2 hammer of wrath hits instead of one, and even FC on top to boot that affects their hammer of wrath hits. That way, you generate a ton of STR 5 hits that are a legit threat to T6 MCs due to the great number of attacks. I might also limit them to a single special or something to show that they are punchy, not shooty. If you cause enough damage, you aren't going to be beat and so LD won't matter.
There is incentive to take this unit over the counter attackers because they get beefed on the assault, not receiving assaults.
Agreed on this, the only problem with giving them (I'm talking units of 5 bikers) 10 STR5 hits is that they're going to completely muller MEQ. I wouldn't give them specials (ranged) as they're intended to be close combat, but probably the ability to take them with two power weapons/one power weapon and one power fist (similar to Crusader Squads).
Well, it's not much worse than being grav gunned by C:SM. And they have to get within range of all kinds of nasty stuff to do their assaults. Mainly I like the S5 aspect as a hedge against MCs, which are a bit unhinged imo, especially against choppy meq lists.
dantay_xv wrote: I actually really like that idea Martel, I will need to look up furious charge. And look at the codices to see what the points costs are like
It also puts the emphasis on the SW player to be aggressive too.
You would still need to take counter attackers as they are scoring units.
But I do like your idea
I try to be fair when suggesting things to actually make *fixes*. This version of the swift claw requires some movement and tactical acumen to use properly. It rewards aggressive play, the opposite of the grey hunter.
Martel732 wrote: Probably the first thing I'd play test is give Swift Claws C:SM biker pricing. Then, since SW are supposed to be punchy, I'd give them 2 hammer of wrath hits instead of one, and even FC on top to boot that affects their hammer of wrath hits. That way, you generate a ton of STR 5 hits that are a legit threat to T6 MCs due to the great number of attacks. I might also limit them to a single special or something to show that they are punchy, not shooty. If you cause enough damage, you aren't going to be beat and so LD won't matter.
There is incentive to take this unit over the counter attackers because they get beefed on the assault, not receiving assaults.
Agreed on this, the only problem with giving them (I'm talking units of 5 bikers) 10 STR5 hits is that they're going to completely muller MEQ. I wouldn't give them specials (ranged) as they're intended to be close combat, but probably the ability to take them with two power weapons/one power weapon and one power fist (similar to Crusader Squads).
Well, it's not much worse than being grav gunned by C:SM. And they have to get within range of all kinds of nasty stuff to do their assaults. Mainly I like the S5 aspect as a hedge against MCs, which are a bit unhinged imo, especially against choppy meq lists.
I'd rather get gravgunned at T3 by a S4 gun 4-6 times than get hit 10 times at S5 and be engaged in melee.
It's a good hedge against MCs but I think they'd be better off having 2 power weapons/some sort of grenade/wargear that gives them +1 WS on the charge (again a reward for aggressiveness). This would slightly balance it but also make sure people are paying for the upgrade and it also offsets their generally low WS and will help them hit MCs in combat instead of wounding.
Martel732 wrote: Maybe. As I said, I'd play test it. Tac marines get run over by any HTH unit really, though. I don't see what makes this one so horrible on its face.
Extremely fast moving, tough bikes with TL boltguns that hit with 2 automatic S5 attacks and then 3 S4 attacks straight afterwards. What's not horrible about it?
For my Swiftclaws I would love a rule where Dreadnaught either can not Assault me or I get Hit an Run vs. them, but that is because if there is a Dreadnaught it find itself Assaulting my Swiftclaws keeping them out of the rest of the game.
Now as far as the 6th Edition Codex: Space Wolves Fast Attacks
Thunderwolf Cavalry: >Price Drop
>Allow all of them to take MotW; this would be fluffy, not efficient, but Fluffy.
>Be able to take a War Shield [5++ Save] as a replacement for the Bolt Pistol.
>Replace the Bolt Pistol with a Bolt Gun [Wolf Dragoons]
>Allow a pair of Fenrisin Wolves/Cyberwolf per TWC Model, mostly the cool factor.
>Cyberwolf Upgrade giving them a 6+ FNP
Swiftclaws: >A Jink save would be nice
>A price drop
>Attack Bike Option: Assault Cannon, for the Cool Factor and maybe we would get a Swiftclaw Box
Skyclaws: >Price Drop
>Loose the MotW. As much as I love it, it does not belong with Blood Claws of any type.
>War Shields [5++ Save]
>Take a Wolf Guard Pack Leader with a Jump Pack
Land Speeders: >Points Drop
>Land Speeder Monsoon: Twin-Linked Assault Cannon, once more for the Cool Factor
Fenrisian Wolf Pack: >Able to take all Cyberwolves
Heavy Fighter/Ground Support Flyer based on the same model: >Ground Support Flyer: Something like a A-10, Twin-Linked Assault Cannons, Strafing and a lot of bombs and AV12
>Heavy Fighter: Something like a P-47 Thunder Bolt, 2x Twin-Linked Auto Cannons and or Twin-Linked Las-Cannons and AV12
I personally would like to see all of the "claw" units given the option to take shields of some sort. Mostly because it would look badass and it would change up their rolls a bit from how they currently are and possibly make them more enticing.
I also think that the new IG codex will be the ultimate measuring stick for just how close to Tau and Eldar they want to take the game. There is so much possibility for abuse into that codex. Much like when the last one came out.
For my Swiftclaws I would love a rule where Dreadnaught either can not Assault me or I get Hit an Run vs. them, but that is because if there is a Dreadnaught it find itself Assaulting my Swiftclaws keeping them out of the rest of the game.
...
Please stop asking for Space Wolf units to be better than Vanilla SM units in such huge ways. If you're stupid enough to allow a Dreadnought to get that close to your bikes then you deserve to get assaulted.
You also have to consider that you're completely denying assault to a very assault-based unit (the dreadnought) on something that it's pretty much made to kill. There's also fact that no other unit in the game completely denies assault except flyers, and they have a reason for it. What makes Swift Claws better than the (far more esteemed and veteran) Black Knights of the DA? If they don't get that rule then there literally are no bikers that will.
For my Swiftclaws I would love a rule where Dreadnaught either can not Assault me or I get Hit an Run vs. them, but that is because if there is a Dreadnaught it find itself Assaulting my Swiftclaws keeping them out of the rest of the game.
...
Please stop asking for Space Wolf units to be better than Vanilla SM units in such huge ways. If you're stupid enough to allow a Dreadnought to get that close to your bikes then you deserve to get assaulted.
You also have to consider that you're completely denying assault to a very assault-based unit (the dreadnought) on something that it's pretty much made to kill. There's also fact that no other unit in the game completely denies assault except flyers, and they have a reason for it. What makes Swift Claws better than the (far more esteemed and veteran) Black Knights of the DA? If they don't get that rule then there literally are no bikers that will.
No that is not what I want for Codex Space Wolves, just my personal Swiftclaws. Even deploying second and placing my Swiftclaws as far away from the Dreads [I usaly face 2-5 of them] one finds away to Assualt My Swiftclaw Pack. I an tired of having to buy Melta Bombs for an Infantry Hunting Unit.
Martel732 wrote: Maybe. As I said, I'd play test it. Tac marines get run over by any HTH unit really, though. I don't see what makes this one so horrible on its face.
Extremely fast moving, tough bikes with TL boltguns that hit with 2 automatic S5 attacks and then 3 S4 attacks straight afterwards. What's not horrible about it?
It still has to close the gap. It can't start melting your list from its own deployment zone. They don't ignore dangerous terrain like White Scars. Maybe they would end up more than 21pts/model. It's just a base idea.
Martel732 wrote: Maybe. As I said, I'd play test it. Tac marines get run over by any HTH unit really, though. I don't see what makes this one so horrible on its face.
Extremely fast moving, tough bikes with TL boltguns that hit with 2 automatic S5 attacks and then 3 S4 attacks straight afterwards. What's not horrible about it?
It still has to close the gap. It can't start melting your list from its own deployment zone. They don't ignore dangerous terrain like White Scars. Maybe they would end up more than 21pts/model. It's just a base idea.
It still gets into combat about turn 2 if you deploy them forward and who cares if they don't ignore dangerous terrain? They have the movement distance to drive around it.
Okay. Maybe it's undercosted a bit. This thread is more thought than GW seems to put into their models, though. I'd have to see it in 4 or 5 games to know for sure.
Martel732 wrote: Okay. Maybe it's undercosted a bit. This thread is more thought than GW seems to put into their models, though. I'd have to see it in 4 or 5 games to know for sure.
I'd go as high as 25-30ppm, Terminator Territory, especially considering their high toughness. The -1 WS + BS don't mean anything when you realise they have TL guns and 2 HoW hits automatically.
Their attacks are fine at the moment. on par with other claw units, they actually do more damage than the others from hammer of wrath, bar if using jump pack to assault, and are tougher to kill in close combat from toughness 5.
The only thing I see happening to them is a point reduction, like all the Claw units need.
How is adding a shield to Claw units fluffy? they get issued with a bolt pistol and chainsword. When they are promoted to the wolf guard is when they get to choose/get given better, more specialised equipment.
What needs to be done in 7th edition is give chainswords an AP value.
DOOMONYOU wrote: Swiftclaws already have jink form being a bike.
Well that should tell you how much we use them
Their attacks are fine at the moment. on par with other claw units, they actually do more damage than the others from hammer of wrath, bar if using jump pack to assault, and are tougher to kill in close combat from toughness 5.
Yes I agree with that.
The only thing I see happening to them is a point reduction, like all the Claw units need.
Yes I agree with that.
How is adding a shield to Claw units fluffy? they get issued with a bolt pistol and chainsword. When they are promoted to the wolf guard is when they get to choose/get given better, more specialised equipment.
Fluffy: No...not really
Cool: Yes
Adding to Survival: Yes
What needs to be done in 7th edition is give chainswords an AP value.
DOOMONYOU wrote: Swiftclaws already have jink form being a bike.
Well that should tell you how much we use them
Their attacks are fine at the moment. on par with other claw units, they actually do more damage than the others from hammer of wrath, bar if using jump pack to assault, and are tougher to kill in close combat from toughness 5.
Yes I agree with that.
The only thing I see happening to them is a point reduction, like all the Claw units need.
Yes I agree with that.
How is adding a shield to Claw units fluffy? they get issued with a bolt pistol and chainsword. When they are promoted to the wolf guard is when they get to choose/get given better, more specialised equipment.
Fluffy: No...not really
Cool: Yes
Adding to Survival: Yes
What needs to be done in 7th edition is give chainswords an AP value.
or a +1 Strength or...somthing
No, not increased Strength.
The Heavy Chainsword does that.
And why would they add something that isn't fluffy to a purposely fluffy army book?
NAH SCREW IT, WE'RE PUTTING BAAL PREDATORS IN C:SM, IT'S NOT FLUFFY BUT IT'S COOL!
DOOMONYOU wrote: Swiftclaws already have jink form being a bike.
Well that should tell you how much we use them
Their attacks are fine at the moment. on par with other claw units, they actually do more damage than the others from hammer of wrath, bar if using jump pack to assault, and are tougher to kill in close combat from toughness 5.
Yes I agree with that.
The only thing I see happening to them is a point reduction, like all the Claw units need.
Yes I agree with that.
How is adding a shield to Claw units fluffy? they get issued with a bolt pistol and chainsword. When they are promoted to the wolf guard is when they get to choose/get given better, more specialised equipment.
Fluffy: No...not really
Cool: Yes
Adding to Survival: Yes
What needs to be done in 7th edition is give chainswords an AP value.
or a +1 Strength or...somthing
No, not increased Strength.
The Heavy Chainsword does that.
And why would they add something that isn't fluffy to a purposely fluffy army book?
NAH SCREW IT, WE'RE PUTTING BAAL PREDATORS IN C:SM, IT'S NOT FLUFFY BUT IT'S COOL!
There is a difference between what I was saying is Cool and the Baal Predator Cool.
Ball Predators have no place with any other army [but maybe the Flamer version for Salamander]. It would look out of place.
Drunken Werewolf Space Vikings with Melee Weapons and Shields would not be that out of place.
All it would take is a change in fluff for that, but GW would never change fluff so I don’t think it will happen from a fluff perspective.
And the +1 strength on the chainsword would be applicable to all chainswords not just Space Wolves...
Unlees of course the Space Wolves got the liquored up special rule... Fearless and +1 strength, -1WS &-1I for being blootered on Mjod and stampeding blindly into battle
dantay_xv wrote: And the +1 strength on the chainsword would be applicable to all chainswords not just Space Wolves...
Sounds good to me
or they could do somthing like back in 2nd ed and give Chain Swords a 5++/6++ save in Melee.
Unlees of course the Space Wolves got the liquored up special rule... Fearless and +1 strength, -1WS &-1I for being blootered on Mjod and stampeding blindly into battle
For my Swiftclaws I would love a rule where Dreadnaught either can not Assault me or I get Hit an Run vs. them, but that is because if there is a Dreadnaught it find itself Assaulting my Swiftclaws keeping them out of the rest of the game.
Just equip them all with melta bombs. I doubt he will charge them with a dreadnaught again.
People want more viking less wolf. How is putting shields on a few units not doing just that. To me it sounds very viking and fluffy. Especially putting the shields on the young head strong recruits that need armor for protection instead of skill.
Some HQ Thoughts: Logan: I would like to see Logan get a rework, especially the Model. He is really showing his age. It is to the point where I am thing of using a Centurion Model to make a new one.
Rules Wise: >Let him pick his Warlord, I don’t think this would be inappropriate. [If not Logan give it at least to Björn]
>Give him 4 Wounds
Wargear: >The Axe Morkai: Just making it a Mastercraft Frost Axe the Strikes at Initiative would be the simplest, maybe add Flesh Bane or Armor Bane.
Ragnar: There is not a lot that really needs to be done other than a point’s adjustment and a new sculpt.
Rules: I can’t think of any, though I would not turn down EW Wargear:
>Frost-Fang: Mastercrafted Chainsword Rends on a 5+. It would fit his Model and with his large number of opening Attacks should be able to pull off a few.
>Svangir and Ulfgir: Rending Cyberwolves
>Runic Armor: Give him some; He leads a Great Company after all.
Ulric the Slayer: I love the old Sculpt, so other than a points fix he does not need much.
Rules:
>Oath of War: Give it to him, he should have it.
>Wounds: Give him 3
War gear: >Mastercraft his Weapons
>Salves an Balms: Give Feel no Pain
Canis Wolfborn: Model wise he is good
Rules: >Unlocks Thunderwolf Cavalry as Elites [They are basically Wolf Guard after all]
Wargear: >Belt of Russ: He either needs a 4++ Save or EW.
>Wolf Claws: Give them Rending
Njal: Nice Sculpt, though both a Terminator version and a Runic Armor version would be great.
Rules: >Master of All Runes: Level-3 Psyker
Wargear: >Staff of the Storm Caller: 24” Bubble and make it a Force Staff with Flesh Bane
>>Note: Make Normal Rune Priest 12” Bubble >Belt of Russ (?): Takes care of the need for Terminator Armor
Njal: Nice Sculpt, though both a Terminator version and a Runic Armor version would be great.
Rules: >Master of All Runes: Level-3 Psyker
Wargear: >Staff of the Storm Caller: 24” Bubble and make it a Force Staff with Flesh Bane
>>Note: Make Normal Rune Priest 12” Bubble >Belt of Russ (?): Takes care of the need for Terminator Armor
I can agree with the rest of the stuff, but the bubble really needs to go away, or Rune Priests need to be much more expensive. Further, there's no Librarian I know of other than Loth that has a built-in Invulnerable Save outside of Terminator Armour, so that probably won't happen either.
100% agree about Logan Grimanr, I have a Legion Praetor waiting to be turned into the old wolf, I just need to figure out how to pleat his hair and beard.
And Stprmcaller should be on a par with Tigurius psych wise, so if he loses stuff in 1 area then he should gain to make up for it in others, and at 270 points he might be pricy enough to justify the bubble
dantay_xv wrote: 100% agree about Logan Grimanr, I have a Legion Praetor waiting to be turned into the old wolf, I just need to figure out how to pleat his hair and beard.
Yeup
And Stprmcaller should be on a par with Tigurius psych wise, so if he loses stuff in 1 area then he should gain to make up for it in others, and at 270 points he might be pricy enough to justify the bubble
His price is one of the reasons I feel his 24” Bubble should stay.
>He cost almost as much as 3 Rune Priest and covers the area.
>One S8 Weapon Removes the Bubble
He still will not be justified fielding by many because of those two things.
And Stprmcaller should be on a par with Tigurius psych wise, so if he loses stuff in 1 area then he should gain to make up for it in others, and at 270 points he might be pricy enough to justify the bubble
To be honest, fluff-wise, what has Njal actually done? I mean, I know he's the ranking Librarian, but what has he actually done? Tigurius linked up with the hive mind, Mephiston did his thing, what has Njal done to put him on par with them?
That said, make the Rune Weapon a Psychic Hood and drop costs appropriately. Don't make Njal stronger, make him cheaper and actually worth taking.
And Stprmcaller should be on a par with Tigurius psych wise, so if he loses stuff in 1 area then he should gain to make up for it in others, and at 270 points he might be pricy enough to justify the bubble
To be honest, fluff-wise, what has Njal actually done? I mean, I know he's the ranking Librarian, but what has he actually done? Tigurius linked up with the hive mind, Mephiston did his thing, what has Njal done to put him on par with them?
That said, make the Rune Weapon a Psychic Hood and drop costs appropriately. Don't make Njal stronger, make him cheaper and actually worth taking.
I have found him worth taking right now. His Lord of Tempest Power have won many a game for me.
Murderous Hurricane and Storm Caller mixed with Lord of Tempest destroys the Maneuvering of enemy armies, it’s like getting 3 Psychic powers off a turn, one with out rolling a LD test for.
I do take him occasionally, but I can see why others dont, in order to unleash more psychic attacks.
And Iwouldnt make him much stronger, there is no need for the belt of russ as he already has a 2+ 4+, and I prefer the terminator version. Have GW stopped doing the PA Njal? Bring him up to 3 wounds to match Tiggy
I find the choosers excellentwith their denial of infiltration 24" bubble
dantay_xv wrote: I do take him occasionally, but I can see why others dont, in order to unleash more psychic attacks.
And Iwouldnt make him much stronger, there is no need for the belt of russ as he already has a 2+ 4+, and I prefer the terminator version. Have GW stopped doing the PA Njal? Bring him up to 3 wounds to match Tiggy
I find the choosers excellentwith their denial of infiltration 24" bubble
He shouldn't have the 24" denial bubble, it's absolutely ridiculous.
I agree with.. I forget. But give him a Psychic Hood instead and drop his points. Why should he have 3 wounds? Normal Librarians have 2 wounds. Lemartes has 2 wounds because he's a Chaplain etc.
Belt of Russ would be good on the non-Terminator version, and it would also make people think twice about taking the Terminator version because you waste your BoR. And no, he doesn't already have a 2+ 4++, he has that with Terminator Armour, not on foot. And no they haven't stopped doing the PA Njal, he just sucks.
Also, why even collect Space Wolves if you want your characters to be like the ones in the Vanilla SM Codex? Make him your own, don't "match Tiggy"
I thought I said he had that on the terminator armour only...noe I read back I made a typo, my bad. I apologise
Tigurius is head librarian, he has 3 wounds, Mephiston is head librarian he has 5?
So why shouldnt Njal, have 3, he is the Head Librarian equivalent to the Space Wolves.
Where have I stated that I want all characters to be like Vanilla marines.... I am merely saying with Njals abilities and low wound threshold he should get more wounds to bring him more in line with his contemporaries. Why even mention Lemartes? He has nothing to do with psykers??
You want Wolves to be vanilla marines of another colour, not me. I want a fun characterful army, who pay the appropriate points for their skillsets that they have & if GW decide I have to pay more points then fine and take a smaller more elite force, I am happy. If I pay less for some things thats even better For me its the theme of the army I like... Norse mythology, is somethiong I love., not the boring romanesque looking coex fans, or the blood sucking neck nibblers.
You are the one saying Space Wolves have to be more like vanilla space marines, not me. You get all bat-gak crazy over the rune priests and grey hunters...
So why not the 3 wounds for Njal or he keeps the bubble? Njal is a points sink, but the reason he is good, is because he is your defensive back up, he holds the line allowing the rest to get forward, using his powers to give cover, slow enemy troops down etc... at 270 points HIS bubble is justified! He has no Eternal warrior and at 2 wounds he cant soak up too much punishment either Plus its sometimes a calculated risk casting with him because 1 perils and he is in danger of being a big waste next time you try and possibly fail to again. Doesnt the hive mind and possibly the eldar make you roll 3 die and choose the 2 highest?
Plus you can put 2 fully tooled up Rune Priests on the board for 1 Njal.
For a standard Rune priest at 100 points it is NOT, they should have a much smaller bubble.
However the choosers of the slain should and I expect will stay to add to the defensive capabilities of the Space Wolves, providing the other 24" bubble effect
dantay_xv wrote: I thought I said he had that on the terminator armour only...noe I read back I made a typo, my bad. I apologise
Tigurius is head librarian, he has 3 wounds, Mephiston is head librarian he has 5?
So why shouldnt Njal, have 3, he is the Head Librarian equivalent to the Space Wolves.
Where have I stated that I want all characters to be like Vanilla marines.... I am merely saying with Njals abilities and low wound threshold he should get more wounds to bring him more in line with his contemporaries. Why even mention Lemartes? He has nothing to do with psykers??
You want Wolves to be vanilla marines of another colour, not me. I want a fun characterful army, who pay the appropriate points for their skillsets that they have & if GW decide I have to pay more points then fine and take a smaller more elite force, I am happy. If I pay less for some things thats even better For me its the theme of the army I like... Norse mythology, is somethiong I love., not the boring romanesque looking coex fans, or the blood sucking neck nibblers.
You are the one saying Space Wolves have to be more like vanilla space marines, not me. You get all bat-gak crazy over the rune priests and grey hunters...
So why not the 3 wounds for Njal or he keeps the bubble? Njal is a points sink, but the reason he is good, is because he is your defensive back up, he holds the line allowing the rest to get forward, using his powers to give cover, slow enemy troops down etc... at 270 points HIS bubble is justified! He has no Eternal warrior and at 2 wounds he cant soak up too much punishment either Plus its sometimes a calculated risk casting with him because 1 perils and he is in danger of being a big waste next time you try and possibly fail to again. Doesnt the hive mind and possibly the eldar make you roll 3 die and choose the 2 highest?
Plus you can put 2 fully tooled up Rune Priests on the board for 1 Njal.
For a standard Rune priest at 100 points it is NOT, they should have a much smaller bubble.
However the choosers of the slain should and I expect will stay to add to the defensive capabilities of the Space Wolves, providing the other 24" bubble effect
Yes I have lost him to PotW in one turn once: frollowed by
dantay_xv wrote: I thought I said he had that on the terminator armour only...noe I read back I made a typo, my bad. I apologise
Tigurius is head librarian, he has 3 wounds, Mephiston is head librarian he has 5?
So why shouldnt Njal, have 3, he is the Head Librarian equivalent to the Space Wolves.
Where have I stated that I want all characters to be like Vanilla marines.... I am merely saying with Njals abilities and low wound threshold he should get more wounds to bring him more in line with his contemporaries. Why even mention Lemartes? He has nothing to do with psykers??
You want Wolves to be vanilla marines of another colour, not me. I want a fun characterful army, who pay the appropriate points for their skillsets that they have & if GW decide I have to pay more points then fine and take a smaller more elite force, I am happy. If I pay less for some things thats even better For me its the theme of the army I like... Norse mythology, is somethiong I love., not the boring romanesque looking coex fans, or the blood sucking neck nibblers.
You are the one saying Space Wolves have to be more like vanilla space marines, not me. You get all bat-gak crazy over the rune priests and grey hunters...
So why not the 3 wounds for Njal or he keeps the bubble? Njal is a points sink, but the reason he is good, is because he is your defensive back up, he holds the line allowing the rest to get forward, using his powers to give cover, slow enemy troops down etc... at 270 points HIS bubble is justified! He has no Eternal warrior and at 2 wounds he cant soak up too much punishment either Plus its sometimes a calculated risk casting with him because 1 perils and he is in danger of being a big waste next time you try and possibly fail to again. Doesnt the hive mind and possibly the eldar make you roll 3 die and choose the 2 highest?
Plus you can put 2 fully tooled up Rune Priests on the board for 1 Njal.
For a standard Rune priest at 100 points it is NOT, they should have a much smaller bubble.
However the choosers of the slain should and I expect will stay to add to the defensive capabilities of the Space Wolves, providing the other 24" bubble effect
Yes I have lost him to PotW in one turn once: frollowed by
If you really want to make Njal live longer then put him in a squad of cheap-ass infantry, like Guardsmen. They literally cost 70pts for a squad of Veterans, and it's 10 extra wounds on your character. He's got such low wounds because he's intended to be put in a squad.
Also please don't complain about his lack of Eternal Warrior, GW are very sparing with EW nowadays and you're lucky to have so much of it smattered around. The only thing in C:CSM with EW was Abaddon, and he's very costly.
dantay_xv wrote: I thought I said he had that on the terminator armour only...noe I read back I made a typo, my bad. I apologise
Tigurius is head librarian, he has 3 wounds, Mephiston is head librarian he has 5?
So why shouldnt Njal, have 3, he is the Head Librarian equivalent to the Space Wolves.
Where have I stated that I want all characters to be like Vanilla marines.... I am merely saying with Njals abilities and low wound threshold he should get more wounds to bring him more in line with his contemporaries. Why even mention Lemartes? He has nothing to do with psykers??
You want Wolves to be vanilla marines of another colour, not me. I want a fun characterful army, who pay the appropriate points for their skillsets that they have & if GW decide I have to pay more points then fine and take a smaller more elite force, I am happy. If I pay less for some things thats even better For me its the theme of the army I like... Norse mythology, is somethiong I love., not the boring romanesque looking coex fans, or the blood sucking neck nibblers.
You are the one saying Space Wolves have to be more like vanilla space marines, not me. You get all bat-gak crazy over the rune priests and grey hunters...
So why not the 3 wounds for Njal or he keeps the bubble? Njal is a points sink, but the reason he is good, is because he is your defensive back up, he holds the line allowing the rest to get forward, using his powers to give cover, slow enemy troops down etc... at 270 points HIS bubble is justified! He has no Eternal warrior and at 2 wounds he cant soak up too much punishment either Plus its sometimes a calculated risk casting with him because 1 perils and he is in danger of being a big waste next time you try and possibly fail to again. Doesnt the hive mind and possibly the eldar make you roll 3 die and choose the 2 highest?
Plus you can put 2 fully tooled up Rune Priests on the board for 1 Njal.
For a standard Rune priest at 100 points it is NOT, they should have a much smaller bubble.
However the choosers of the slain should and I expect will stay to add to the defensive capabilities of the Space Wolves, providing the other 24" bubble effect
Yes I have lost him to PotW in one turn once: frollowed by
If you really want to make Njal live longer then put him in a squad of cheap-ass infantry, like Guardsmen. They literally cost 70pts for a squad of Veterans, and it's 10 extra wounds on your character. He's got such low wounds because he's intended to be put in a squad.
Also please don't complain about his lack of Eternal Warrior, GW are very sparing with EW nowadays and you're lucky to have so much of it smattered around. The only thing in C:CSM with EW was Abaddon, and he's very costly.
As for keeping alive, that double PotW is the only time I have lost him.
As far as EW, I would like it for some more of the characters, but it is not a deal breaker. I would not even be upset if the got rid of Saga of the Bear personally.
dantay_xv wrote: I thought I said he had that on the terminator armour only...noe I read back I made a typo, my bad. I apologise
Tigurius is head librarian, he has 3 wounds, Mephiston is head librarian he has 5?
So why shouldnt Njal, have 3, he is the Head Librarian equivalent to the Space Wolves.
Where have I stated that I want all characters to be like Vanilla marines.... I am merely saying with Njals abilities and low wound threshold he should get more wounds to bring him more in line with his contemporaries. Why even mention Lemartes? He has nothing to do with psykers??
You want Wolves to be vanilla marines of another colour, not me. I want a fun characterful army, who pay the appropriate points for their skillsets that they have & if GW decide I have to pay more points then fine and take a smaller more elite force, I am happy. If I pay less for some things thats even better For me its the theme of the army I like... Norse mythology, is somethiong I love., not the boring romanesque looking coex fans, or the blood sucking neck nibblers.
You are the one saying Space Wolves have to be more like vanilla space marines, not me. You get all bat-gak crazy over the rune priests and grey hunters...
So why not the 3 wounds for Njal or he keeps the bubble? Njal is a points sink, but the reason he is good, is because he is your defensive back up, he holds the line allowing the rest to get forward, using his powers to give cover, slow enemy troops down etc... at 270 points HIS bubble is justified! He has no Eternal warrior and at 2 wounds he cant soak up too much punishment either Plus its sometimes a calculated risk casting with him because 1 perils and he is in danger of being a big waste next time you try and possibly fail to again. Doesnt the hive mind and possibly the eldar make you roll 3 die and choose the 2 highest?
Plus you can put 2 fully tooled up Rune Priests on the board for 1 Njal.
For a standard Rune priest at 100 points it is NOT, they should have a much smaller bubble.
However the choosers of the slain should and I expect will stay to add to the defensive capabilities of the Space Wolves, providing the other 24" bubble effect
Yes I have lost him to PotW in one turn once: frollowed by
If you really want to make Njal live longer then put him in a squad of cheap-ass infantry, like Guardsmen. They literally cost 70pts for a squad of Veterans, and it's 10 extra wounds on your character. He's got such low wounds because he's intended to be put in a squad.
Also please don't complain about his lack of Eternal Warrior, GW are very sparing with EW nowadays and you're lucky to have so much of it smattered around. The only thing in C:CSM with EW was Abaddon, and he's very costly.
As for keeping alive, that double PotW is the only time I have lost him.
As far as EW, I would like it for some more of the characters, but it is not a deal breaker. I would not even be upset if the got rid of Saga of the Bear personally.
EW is for the best of the best.
You're not meant to just chuck it about..
Anpu42 wrote: Some HQ Thoughts: Logan: I would like to see Logan get a rework, especially the Model. He is really showing his age. It is to the point where I am thing of using a Centurion Model to make a new one.
I actually don't mind the Logan model. Ragnar could use a new one, I don't mind the UIrik Model, but it's very early 90s looking and could probably use an update.
Canis Wolfborn: Model wise he is good
Seriously? The giant Pomeranian is one of the ugliest looking models in 40k. The sole reason I have never played with Canis Wolfborn is his model is so damned ugly and I haven't been bothered converting something else.
Anpu42 wrote: Some HQ Thoughts: Logan: I would like to see Logan get a rework, especially the Model. He is really showing his age. It is to the point where I am thing of using a Centurion Model to make a new one.
I actually don't mind the Logan model. Ragnar could use a new one, I don't mind the UIrik Model, but it's very early 90s looking and could probably use an update.
Canis Wolfborn: Model wise he is good
Seriously? The giant Pomeranian is one of the ugliest looking models in 40k. The sole reason I have never played with Canis Wolfborn is his model is so damned ugly and I haven't been bothered converting something else.
Yes logan looks good untill he is placed next to other Wolf Guard, then he is a Dwarf
Anpu42 wrote: Some HQ Thoughts: Logan: I would like to see Logan get a rework, especially the Model. He is really showing his age. It is to the point where I am thing of using a Centurion Model to make a new one.
I actually don't mind the Logan model. Ragnar could use a new one, I don't mind the UIrik Model, but it's very early 90s looking and could probably use an update.
Canis Wolfborn: Model wise he is good
Seriously? The giant Pomeranian is one of the ugliest looking models in 40k. The sole reason I have never played with Canis Wolfborn is his model is so damned ugly and I haven't been bothered converting something else.
Canis is the worst SW model. Look at my profile pic if you'd like to see why.
Martel732 wrote: I find myself massing so much fire against WS and Riptides that splitting fire is never in my wildest dreams. It might as well be a free ability.
So because you personally don't use it that makes it a pointless ability? Yeah that makes sense. Not every game is against wave serpents and Riptides so splitting fire can be quite useful. It really is funny how vehmently angry you are at grey hunters because they make things tough for you and you are completely nonchalant about a quite potent capability like splitting fire. Splitting fire *should* be a free ability for every model in the game. Since not every model gets it, then there should be a cost for Long Fangs to be the only ones to have it. Just fair.
Martel732 wrote: I find myself massing so much fire against WS and Riptides that splitting fire is never in my wildest dreams. It might as well be a free ability.
So because you personally don't use it that makes it a pointless ability? Yeah that makes sense. Not every game is against wave serpents and Riptides so splitting fire can be quite useful. It really is funny how vehmently angry you are at grey hunters because they make things tough for you and you are completely nonchalant about a quite potent capability like splitting fire. Splitting fire *should* be a free ability for every model in the game. Since not every model gets it, then there should be a cost for Long Fangs to be the only ones to have it. Just fair.
Skriker
Sorry, I don't find splitting fire to be that potent. I don't think it's that potent for anyone else, either. Just my opinion. I personally don't mind Long Fangs having it because I don't think its that good. TRIPLE attacks when assaulted is a hell of a lot better than that.
Split fire isn't really about massing fire against multiple targets, it's about being able to take a couple of lascannons and a bunch of heavy bolters, using the heavy bolters to soak up wounds while still being useful (or missile launchers).
My typical Long Fang squad is 3 heavy bolters and 2 Lascannons. Heavy Bolters aren't great against MEQ, but they're good against basically every other army. Even against MEQ they'll often make their points back though (depending on how long they live!) and give the lascannons a better chance of surviving long enough to do some damage.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Split fire isn't really about massing fire against multiple targets, it's about being able to take a couple of lascannons and a bunch of heavy bolters, using the heavy bolters to soak up wounds while still being useful (or missile launchers).
My typical Long Fang squad is 3 heavy bolters and 2 Lascannons. Heavy Bolters aren't great against MEQ, but they're good against basically every other army. Even against MEQ they'll often make their points back though (depending on how long they live!) and give the lascannons a better chance of surviving long enough to do some damage.
Mine are done up similar
1x Heavy Bolter, 2x Las-Cannon and 2x Missile Launchers. Split fire lets me be flexable.
Anpu42 wrote: As far as EW, I would like it for some more of the characters, but it is not a deal breaker. I would not even be upset if the got rid of Saga of the Bear personally.
Please no, combat Wolf Lords need it to stop from getting killed by random TH/PF/MCs and stay a viable option in comparison to TWC Lords.
The sagas need to stay, they are all about making your lords unique. If anything more sagas need to be included.
Saga of the bear is limited to only 1 model in the whole army, if you get rid of that might as well get rid of the shield eternal next space marine codex release
Martel732 wrote: Sorry, I don't find splitting fire to be that potent. I don't think it's that potent for anyone else, either. Just my opinion. I personally don't mind Long Fangs having it because I don't think its that good. TRIPLE attacks when assaulted is a hell of a lot better than that.
And that is fine, but usefulness of abilities is not determined solely by your peronsal opinions on the matter, which was my point. The flexibility of splitting fire is exceptionally useful and it is silly that long fangs get the ability and no one else does and they should HAVE to pay for that ability. Right now despite that ability they cost less than regular devastators. 40k is one of the few games with this silly requirement that the entire unit must all shoot at the same target. This often leads to situations where shooting attacks are wasted because they can't affect the targe that part of the squad is shooting at. It is quite powerful to split the fire in a unit that can include AT and non-AT weapons.
I have a unit of devastators with 2 heavy bolters and 2 lascannon. They are being attacked by assaulting troops and a leman russ tank. They have to choose: Shoot at the tank, and lose heavy bolter shots, or shoot the troops and completely ignore the tank. If that unit is long fangs, they can take multiple AT shots at the tank AND open up on the assaulting troops with their heavy bolters. That can be a BIG difference in a game.
If I am shooting the heck out of grey hunters from across the table their "triple attacks when assaulted" have ZERO impact on me. So that ability is JUST the same as splitting fire. In some situations either can be really useful/powerful and in others they don't matter than much.
Justt because YOU don't consider splitting fire potent, doesn't change the fact that it actually is quite potent and just because you had the grey hunters when they are assaulted, doesn't mean that is total stymie for every opponent.
Martel732 wrote: Sorry, I don't find splitting fire to be that potent. I don't think it's that potent for anyone else, either. Just my opinion. I personally don't mind Long Fangs having it because I don't think its that good. TRIPLE attacks when assaulted is a hell of a lot better than that.
And that is fine, but usefulness of abilities is not determined solely by your peronsal opinions on the matter, which was my point. The flexibility of splitting fire is exceptionally useful and it is silly that long fangs get the ability and no one else does and they should HAVE to pay for that ability. Right now despite that ability they cost less than regular devastators. 40k is one of the few games with this silly requirement that the entire unit must all shoot at the same target. This often leads to situations where shooting attacks are wasted because they can't affect the targe that part of the squad is shooting at. It is quite powerful to split the fire in a unit that can include AT and non-AT weapons.
I have a unit of devastators with 2 heavy bolters and 2 lascannon. They are being attacked by assaulting troops and a leman russ tank. They have to choose: Shoot at the tank, and lose heavy bolter shots, or shoot the troops and completely ignore the tank. If that unit is long fangs, they can take multiple AT shots at the tank AND open up on the assaulting troops with their heavy bolters. That can be a BIG difference in a game.
If I am shooting the heck out of grey hunters from across the table their "triple attacks when assaulted" have ZERO impact on me. So that ability is JUST the same as splitting fire. In some situations either can be really useful/powerful and in others they don't matter than much.
Justt because YOU don't consider splitting fire potent, doesn't change the fact that it actually is quite potent and just because you had the grey hunters when they are assaulted, doesn't mean that is total stymie for every opponent.
Skriker
Actually I think we do pay for the Split Fire.
>We don’t get Meat Shields. I know in RL hardly anybody take the extra bodys with their Devastators, but when the Game Designers ad GW do.
>We don’t get the option to make one guy BS5, witch may not seem like a big deal, but it can be.
As far as the Grey Hunters and Counter Attack. It can be made completely useless by not Assaulting and just shooting the out of us. I am sure Tau don’t even have a clue that we have counter Attack.
I just give all my units the same weapon. I'm so conditioned to the whole "unit fires at the same target" thing that I just build my lists to compensate for this. Why would non-Long Fangs ever consider having different weapon types?
I suppose that Long Fangs being able to do something that no others can do should cost them something, even its something I've learned to live without for a long time. I don't feel that lack of split fire has ever cost me a game.
Automatically Appended Next Post: "We don’t get Meat Shields. I know in RL hardly anybody take the extra bodys with their Devastators, but when the Game Designers ad GW do. "
This is an advantage. Meat shields for devs are bad, because they are dead weight. You could be bringing more models that DO something.
"We don’t get the option to make one guy BS5, witch may not seem like a big deal, but it can be. "
No, it's not a big deal at all. So your long fangs haven't paid a thing.
"As far as the Grey Hunters and Counter Attack. It can be made completely useless by not Assaulting and just shooting the out of us. I am sure Tau don’t even have a clue that we have counter Attack."
Great for Tau, a disaster for meq lists that can't out shoot the SW. Can't out shoot, can't assault. What are they to do?
Martel732 wrote: I just give all my units the same weapon. I'm so conditioned to the whole "unit fires at the same target" thing that I just build my lists to compensate for this. Why would non-Long Fangs ever consider having different weapon types?
I suppose that Long Fangs being able to do something that no others can do should cost them something, even its something I've learned to live without for a long time. I don't feel that lack of split fire has ever cost me a game.
Automatically Appended Next Post: "We don’t get Meat Shields. I know in RL hardly anybody take the extra bodys with their Devastators, but when the Game Designers ad GW do. "
This is an advantage. Meat shields for Devs are bad, because they are dead weight. You could be bringing more models that DO something.
They are Bolter Armed Marines, which you feel are worthless no mater what, but they are still 5 more Bolt Guns to though out fire. In the Big Guns Missions you can also Combat Squad and have another Scoring unit.
"We don’t get the option to make one guy BS5, witch may not seem like a big deal, but it can be. "
No, it's not a big deal at all. So your long fangs haven't paid a thing.
Neither have Devastators paid for the BS5
"As far as the Grey Hunters and Counter Attack. It can be made completely useless by not Assaulting and just shooting the out of us. I am sure Tau don’t even have a clue that we have counter Attack."
Great for Tau, a disaster for meq lists that can't out shoot the SW. Can't out shoot, can't assault. What are they to do?
How can you not outshoot me, we are armed basically the same, Shooting is equal. Unless you are talking Blood Angel Assault Squads who can easily arrange for 5 Attacks on the Assault.
"They are Bolter Armed Marines, which you feel are worthless no mater what, but they are still 5 more Bolt Guns to though out fire. In the Big Guns Missions you can also Combat Squad and have another Scoring unit. "
Bolter armed marines are basically worthless. Instead of meat shields for devs, I could have any number of other more killy units that will draw fire off the Long Fangs.
"Neither have Devastators paid for the BS5 "
But then why do Long Fangs still end up cheaper? What's the justification?
"How can you not outshoot me, we are armed basically the same, Shooting is equal. Unless you are talking Blood Angel Assault Squads who can easily arrange for 5 Attacks on the Assault. "
Double special weapons, cheap Long Fangs, and not having to include anti-horde tech into your list might have something to do with it. You GH just existing are anti-horde. If you don't understand how much of an advantage this is, you need to play Astartes marines some more until you figure it out.
BA ASM can't get 5 attacks on the assault. They get 3. You knowledge of C:BA is not inspiring confidence in your ability to assess the situation.
The Codex: Blood Angels are an Edition behind and have not received their points adjustment. This is why we are cheeper right NOW.
Tactical Marines: >Codex: Blood Angles: 16ppm
>Codex: Space Marines: 14ppm
>Codex: Space Wolves Grey Hunters: 15ppm
Assault Squads with Jump Packs: >Codex: Blood Angles: 18ppm
>Codex: Space Marines: 17ppm
>Codex: Space Wolves Skyclaws: 18ppm
Devastators: >Codex: Blood Angles: 16ppm
>Codex: Space Marines: 14ppm
>Codex: Space Wolves Long Fongs: 15ppm
I don't have the book in front of me, but aren't Long Fangs with MLs cheaper than C:SMdevs with MLs?
And where were you getting 5 attacks?
And you didn't address the built-in anti-horde capability. You can afford to load up on plasma, because gaunts and Orks can beat you even if they assault.
Jefffar wrote: The GH don't get a LD up from a built in Sgt either.
That's only really a problem if you want to simultaneously ride in a transport and get the "free" special weapon. Other than that, I'd much sooner have Wolf Guard than Veteran Sergeants. Wolf Guard are much cheaper, have cheaper equipment options, have more equipment options (they can take termie armour and you can give some of them heavy weapons).
Martel732 wrote: I don't have the book in front of me, but aren't Long Fangs with MLs cheaper than C:SMdevs with MLs?
Cheeper than Space Marines 6th, but not Blood Angels. That will probably change with the new Codexs.
And where were you getting 5 attacks?
Rage give you +2 Attack on the Assualt and with Astorath that gives you a 50/50 chance of your Squads getting it
>Assualt Squads, : 1+1 [two Weapons] +2 [Rage]= 4 Attacks
>Tactical & Devistator Squads: 1 +2 [Rage]= 3 Attacks
>Death Company, Assualt Terminators [Lighing Claws, Sagunary Guard, Command Squads: 2+1 [Two Weapons] +2 [Rage]=5 Attacks
And you didn't address the built-in anti-horde capability. You can afford to load up on plasma, because gaunts and Orks can beat you even if they assault.
Most of my Kills vs hordes are with Boltgun, Heavy Bolters and Frag Missiles. The Plasma usaly takes care of Nobs.
"Most of my Kills vs hordes are with Boltgun, Heavy Bolters and Frag Missiles. The Plasma usaly takes care of Nobs."
But you don't need the boltguns, h bolters or frag missiles. You can let them hit your lines and die horribly. Other marines don't get this option.
When building a TAC list, BA and C:SM can't afford to load up on too much on any one type of weapon. SW can leave the heavy bolters and other anti-horde weapons at home, and take more specialized weapons because you don't care about hordes. If not for bizarre pricing, the Long Fangs would ideally have lascannons, not MLs, because krak missiles are pretty bad. (And frags are even worse)
Astorath can't hand out rage chief. The reality is not even close to what you are claiming. The only squad in the whole codex with rage is DC, who are garbage. DC will never get to assault against a good SW player.
Martel732 wrote: "Most of my Kills vs hordes are with Boltgun, Heavy Bolters and Frag Missiles. The Plasma usaly takes care of Nobs."
But you don't need the boltguns, h bolters or frag missiles. You can let them hit your lines and die horribly. Other marines don't get this option.
And if I fail my LD8 Test I don’t get my Counter Attack and Die Horribly. It is also best not to let Hordes get to you.
When building a TAC list, BA and C:SM can't afford to load up on too much on any one type of weapon. SW can leave the heavy bolters and other anti-horde weapons at home, and take more specialized weapons because you don't care about hordes.
No we can’t, I play against Orks and Nids all of the time. You have two choices, Kill as much of them as you can before they get to you, or Assault them. To do otherwize it to get stomped.
Astarath can't hand out rage chief. The reality is not even close to what you are claiming. The only squad in the whole codex with rage is DC, who are garbage. DC will never get to assault against a good SW player.
He make the Red Thirst kick in on a 1-3.
10 bare bones Death Company cost 180 and get FNP Fearless.
10 bare bones Grey Hunter cost 150 and we have ATSKNF, Counter Attack, and LD8
The one time I pulled Death Company out loaded up with Bolt Guns, they dominated their 12” bubble of the battlefield, now this was back in 5th.
I know what you say is not quite right because I have used SW before and crushed hordes without softening them up first. Even if you fail counterattack, you still get double the swings of other marines.
Yes, you can leave the anti-horde weapons out because I watched SW players do it for all of 5th and tried it myself a few times. There is no incentive for SW to try to assault the hordes when you aren't gaining any attacks out of it.
Please don't try to compare DC to Grey Hunters. You are just being silly at that point.
DC are a dumpster fire and anyone who seriously claims differently really needs to really think about how they work. And if your opponents are letting you push them around with DC, you need better opponents. I literally have never lost to another BA player using more than 5 DC.
Just accept the fact that SW own BA in every aspect of the game. I'm sorry if this cheapens your victories against BA, but that's simply the way it is.
If 6th wasn't all about shooting everyone to death, the GH would still be the best troop in the game right now. By a long shot. But their special sauce fails against too many top lists.
Wheat do I think they need: Nothing. No Points Adjustments, No new Rules. This will make them more expensive than normal Space Marines.
What I would like: >To pay for the Second Weapon IF ONLY TO KEEP EVERYONE FROM WHINNING ABOUT IT! >Change the Special Weapons to May take One Special Melee or Special Ranged Weapon for every 5 Models.
OR >Make Mark of the Wolfen a Special Melee Weapon [Army Wide]
>May take One Special Melee Weapon and One Special Ranged Weapon for every 5 Models.
OR >Make Mark of the Wolfen a Special Melee Weapon [Army Wide]
>Change the Special Weapons to May take Two Special Melees or Special Ranged Weapons for every 5 Models.
Martel732 wrote: Once again, it's not "whining" if there a mathematically unfair advantage involved.
So hown many points shoudl they be?
It is not like we always get our Counter Attack, We do have to Pass a LD8 Test unless we want to pay an 18+ Point Tax for LD9 that if we want a Transport cost us a Special Weapon.
No free special weapons for starters. That's more what I was referring to.
It's very hard to put a true price on being proof from 90% of assault on your SCORING units. It's bad enough that GH can already whip every other scoring unit in the game mercilessly. At least that I can think of.
The best solution is to bust GH down to 2 CC attacks total so their fair point cost doesn't get them murdered against Eldar/Tau. As they stand now, if a tac marine is 14 pts, a grey hunter would have to be at least 17. That's how much better they are in CC, which you should have to pay for, even though Tau and Eldar don't care.
Remember that you are also paying to NOT have to take flamers and other anti-horde. I don't care if you personally do or not, you don't have to. You are choosing to overkill that part of your list and that is on you. This matters in a game where points are theoretically determined by playtesting.
For fun, try to figure it out yourself. Borrow an Ork army and play a SW player four or five times. If you haven't punched him out by the end, you'll see what I mean. Orks have precious few good options against SW.
Martel732 wrote: Once again, it's not "whining" if there a mathematically unfair advantage involved.
So hown many points shoudl they be?
It is not like we always get our Counter Attack, We do have to Pass a LD8 Test unless we want to pay an 18+ Point Tax for LD9 that if we want a Transport cost us a Special Weapon.
It's hardly a tax when you consider regular SM pay 24pts for Ld9 and don't get access to Termie armour and other Wolf Guard goodies.
I think every one of these types of threads greatly benefit from army swapping. I've probably army swapped over 20 times now. It really gives you a different perspective.
Martel732 wrote: No free special weapons for starters. That's more what I was referring to.
It's very hard to put a true price on being proof from 90% of assault on your SCORING units. It's bad enough that GH can already whip every other scoring unit in the game mercilessly. At least that I can think of.
I think your view is a little off.
The best solution is to bust GH down to 2 CC attacks total so their fair point cost doesn't get them murdered against Eldar/Tau. As they stand now, if a tac marine is 14 pts, a grey hunter would have to be at least 17. That's how much better they are in CC, which you should have to pay for, even though Tau and Eldar don't care.
NO! Why should I get rid my Chain Sword, the iconic Image of Space Wolves, that is asking for the Blood Angles to give up their Jump Packs. Also as far as I know We am the Only army with Counter Attack
Remember that you are also paying to have to take flamers and other anti-horde. This matters in a game where points are theoretically determined by playtesting.
I have no idea what your point is here.
For fun, try to figure it out yourself. Borrow an Ork army and play a SW player four or five times. If you haven't punched him out by the end, you'll see what I mean. Orks have precious few good options against SW.
I used to play Orks.
Yes Orks have a great option, 30 Boys. Have you even seen a Full Boyz Mob impact with a Grey Hunters Pack, it is not pretty and usually take a few Assault Phases to complete.
This is how is usually goes
>I pass my Counter Attack, I win
>I Fail my Counter Attack, I loose.
In fact that is how it does most of the time. I can tell who is going to win based on a single LD Test.
It is also not hard to get a 20 model Ork Mob into Assault with Grey Hunters. 1 Open Top AV14 Battle Wagon, allowing the 20 Orks to Assault directly out of it. usually there are not 10 Grey Hunters left to make the 30 Attacks.
I think GH show that the game can be rather unbalanced. It's very hard to put a value on 3 attacks when being charged because it's worth heaps against Orks or Tyranids and worthless against shooty armies. I've played a few games of Tyranids vs SW on both sides (since I collect both armies) and while 'nids can overwhelm a SW line, it's really quite hard.
I think GH just need to lose the extra attack when they get charged. Everyone else can keep it, but for GH it makes them a bit too much. The question is how do you do that in a neat way (rules wise), as I think it would be odd to have counter attack on every unit BUT GH, lol. Maybe give them a rule:
Overequipped: Space Wolves like to be able to carry lots of weapons with them to bash people up close. However, due to the difficulty of managing the plethora of weapons, Grey Hunters do not benefit from their CCW when counter-attacking.
Martel732 wrote: Once again, it's not "whining" if there a mathematically unfair advantage involved.
So hown many points shoudl they be?
It is not like we always get our Counter Attack, We do have to Pass a LD8 Test unless we want to pay an 18+ Point Tax for LD9 that if we want a Transport cost us a Special Weapon.
It's hardly a tax when you consider regular SM pay 24pts for Ld9 and don't get access to Termie armour and other Wolf Guard goodies.
So I trade out my 15 point Plasma Gunner for 33 point LD9 that prevents me from making Sweeping Advances and makes it impossible to take any transport, but a Drop Pod or Land Raider.
That’s a good trade.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I think GH show that the game can be rather unbalanced. It's very hard to put a value on 3 attacks when being charged because it's worth heaps against Orks or Tyranids and worthless against shooty armies. I've played a few games of Tyranids vs SW on both sides (since I collect both armies) and while 'nids can overwhelm a SW line, it's really quite hard.
I think GH just need to lose the extra attack when they get charged. Everyone else can keep it, but for GH it makes them a bit too much. The question is how do you do that in a neat way (rules wise), as I think it would be odd to have counter attack on every unit BUT GH, lol.
Well in the 3rd edition Codex, Long fangs just did noy get it at all.
I would be good with loosing Counter Attack if we got True Grit Back, but it is long gone.
Martel732 wrote: Once again, it's not "whining" if there a mathematically unfair advantage involved.
So hown many points shoudl they be?
It is not like we always get our Counter Attack, We do have to Pass a LD8 Test unless we want to pay an 18+ Point Tax for LD9 that if we want a Transport cost us a Special Weapon.
It's hardly a tax when you consider regular SM pay 24pts for Ld9 and don't get access to Termie armour and other Wolf Guard goodies.
So I trade out my 15 point Plasma Gunner for 33 point LD9 that prevents me from making Sweeping Advances and makes it impossible to take any transport, but a Drop Pod or Land Raider. That’s a good trade.
It's situational when you would and wouldn't take termie armour, but I'd hardly call Wolf Guard a "tax" when Space Marines pay more for the same thing and the only real penalty is you lose the free special weapon when you want to ride in a transport.
That's ALL it is.... you lose the special weapon when you want to ride in a transport. For that, we pay less and get more. A Wolf Guard is only 3pts more than a GH.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I think GH show that the game can be rather unbalanced. It's very hard to put a value on 3 attacks when being charged because it's worth heaps against Orks or Tyranids and worthless against shooty armies. I've played a few games of Tyranids vs SW on both sides (since I collect both armies) and while 'nids can overwhelm a SW line, it's really quite hard.
I think GH just need to lose the extra attack when they get charged. Everyone else can keep it, but for GH it makes them a bit too much. The question is how do you do that in a neat way (rules wise), as I think it would be odd to have counter attack on every unit BUT GH, lol.
Well in the 3rd edition Codex, Long fangs just did noy get it at all. I would be good with loosing Counter Attack if we got True Grit Back, but it is long gone.
True grit doesn't really work in the current rules because all marines (GH or not) carry bolt pistols. But you could just take away the counter attack from GH or add an exception (coz 40k loves exceptions, lol) saying GH can't use their CCW on the counter attack.
Martel732 wrote: Once again, it's not "whining" if there a mathematically unfair advantage involved.
So hown many points shoudl they be?
It is not like we always get our Counter Attack, We do have to Pass a LD8 Test unless we want to pay an 18+ Point Tax for LD9 that if we want a Transport cost us a Special Weapon.
It's hardly a tax when you consider regular SM pay 24pts for Ld9 and don't get access to Termie armour and other Wolf Guard goodies.
So I trade out my 15 point Plasma Gunner for 33 point LD9 that prevents me from making Sweeping Advances and makes it impossible to take any transport, but a Drop Pod or Land Raider.
That’s a good trade.
It's situational when you would and wouldn't take termie armour, but I'd hardly call Wolf Guard a "tax" when Space Marines pay more for the same thing and the only real penalty is you lose the free special weapon when you want to ride in a transport.
That's ALL it is.... you lose the special weapon when you want to ride in a transport. For that, we pay less and get more.
It is a Tax because in order to take a Wolf Guard Pack Leader it cost you Weapons or a Transport and an Elite Slot. You are not going to take one in power armor with out a Power Weapon or something taking the basic WGPL from 18 points to 28 points. To make him able to do something other than stand there and look good until you get into Assault Range you can take the free Bolt Gun at the cost of an Attack.
And you cant take just one, it has to a be a minim of three, so at that point you might as well take one for each Grey Hunter Pack causing the loss of more Special Weapons if you are going Mechanized.
If you are foot slogging it you don’t loose the Special Weapon, but you are now paying for the 11th guy in each Pack.
The only time I feel a WGPL is worth it is when you are doing Razorback SPAM ware the 6th man is not a burden to the Pack.
This is unless you are trying to get a Cyclone Launcher into one of your Long Fangs.
Thats is true, but by putting a terminator clad wolf guard with eithe grey hunters or Bloodclaws severley limits your transport capabilities.
So they are not great if you need to get across the board fast or need to be mobile in any fashion.
Land Raiders are expensive.
Name a scoring unit that can hold a candle to the GH.
30 boyz plus a nob plus a battlewagon is not a fair comparison to a single GH hunter squad. It's a more fair comparison to TWO GH squads, and I think we know who'd win that.
"I think GH show that the game can be rather unbalanced. It's very hard to put a value on 3 attacks when being charged because it's worth heaps against Orks or Tyranids and worthless against shooty armies. I've played a few games of Tyranids vs SW on both sides (since I collect both armies) and while 'nids can overwhelm a SW line, it's really quite hard.
"
Anpu42 wrote: The only time I feel a WGPL is worth it is when you are doing Razorback SPAM ware the 6th man is not a burden to the Pack.
This is unless you are trying to get a Cyclone Launcher into one of your Long Fangs.
I think that's slightly understating it. I WGPL is worth it whenever you don't need an extra special weapon and a transport at the same time (you can still take a transport, you just lose the special weapon, and you can still take the extra special weapon, you just lose the transport).
I often take a WGPL without a power weapon, so you can't go including that in your "tax". A WGPL without a power weapon is basically just paying 3pts to get +1 Ld on the unit, as he functions much the same as a GH then. You can give him a combi-bolter/plasma and it's still cheaper than taking a naked veteran sergeant in a tac marine squad.
I will admit I didn't really consider the fact it takes up an elites slot because frankly I always have a wolf guard pack anyway, lol. I might not take a fully decked out Termie, but even in a small game I'll usually take a few naked Wolf Guard with 1 or 2 special weapons.
dantay_xv wrote: Thats is true, but by putting a terminator clad wolf guard with eithe grey hunters or Bloodclaws severley limits your transport capabilities.
So they are not great if you need to get across the board fast or need to be mobile in any fashion.
Land Raiders are expensive.
I have found, for me at least, WGPL are unnecessary and hard to fit in with out going to a double FOC.
When I Gunline I usually have good cover and usually don’t have to make to many LD Test [especially with the DoM in a pod gone].
With Rhinos I usually get halfway to my targets before disembarking [by choice or not] and then from there ATSKNF usually takes of that.
The same for Pods. If I am forced to fall mach I got the whole table to cross and make use of ATSKNF to regroup.
">I pass my Counter Attack, I win
>I Fail my Counter Attack, I loose. "
Looking at your analysis again, I just don't think you appreciate your situation. Your GH are being assaulted by dedicated CC troops. Not only do they get overwatch, they will almost certainly straight up win if you roll "8" or less on two dice.
Other marines assaulted by dedicated assault troops don't get to roll at all. They just die. It would be different if GH were BS 3 or something or took some kind of firepower hit. They don't. In fact, under most circumstances, they have MORE firepower than a tactical squad.
Can you see where this is worth substantial points? Remember that marines, unlike Tau or Eldar, generally don't have the firepower to keep other lists out of assault.
Martel732 wrote: I just give all my units the same weapon. I'm so conditioned to the whole "unit fires at the same target" thing that I just build my lists to compensate for this. Why would non-Long Fangs ever consider having different weapon types?
Because a lot of the time it is about taking on all comers, so you can't just load up on all lascannons because it will screw you if you end up in a game against an opponent with an army made up of 200 slugga and shoota boyz. Just like arming them all with heavy bolters makes them a bit useless when faced with an army like a 'nidzilla full of lots of hard targets instead. My khorne chaos havocs I equip with 1 lascannon, 1 auto-cannon and 2 missile launchers each. That gives them the flexibility to deal with a variety of different target types out there. Auto cannon and frag missile shots for the troops and las cannon and krak missiles for the hard targets. Add in some flakk missiles and they can cover flying targets as well, though I do have a chaos Hell blade in my khorne army for air cover. The havocs in all 3 of my other chaos marine armies also carry a variety of weapons, though I don't remember them exactly the same since I haven't been playing them since the dawn of time like my khorne marines.
Martel732 wrote: I just give all my units the same weapon. I'm so conditioned to the whole "unit fires at the same target" thing that I just build my lists to compensate for this. Why would non-Long Fangs ever consider having different weapon types?
Because a lot of the time it is about taking on all comers, so you can't just load up on all lascannons because it will screw you if you end up in a game against an opponent with an army made up of 200 slugga and shoota boyz. Just like arming them all with heavy bolters makes them a bit useless when faced with an army like a 'nidzilla full of lots of hard targets instead. My khorne chaos havocs I equip with 1 lascannon, 1 auto-cannon and 2 missile launchers each. That gives them the flexibility to deal with a variety of different target types out there. Auto cannon and frag missile shots for the troops and las cannon and krak missiles for the hard targets. Add in some flakk missiles and they can cover flying targets as well, though I do have a chaos Hell blade in my khorne army for air cover. The havocs in all 3 of my other chaos marine armies also carry a variety of weapons, though I don't remember them exactly the same since I haven't been playing them since the dawn of time like my khorne marines.
Skriker
You introduce variety in separate squads, not within the same squad. Try going all lascannons on the havocs and let other units do the anti-horde. Because MLs suck at that anyway.
Martel732 wrote: ">I pass my Counter Attack, I win
>I Fail my Counter Attack, I loose. "
Looking at your analysis again, I just don't think you appreciate your situation. Your GH are being assaulted by dedicated CC troops. Not only do they get overwatch, they will almost certainly straight up win if you roll "8" or less on two dice.
Other marines assaulted by dedicated assault troops don't get to roll at all. They just die. Can you see where this worth substantial points? Remember that marines, unlike Tau or Eldar, generally don't have the firepower to keep other lists out of assault.
Why do you want to keep want to make Grey Hunters normal Space Marines, we are not normal Space Marines.
Grey Hunters have to tow the line for the whole Army. Grey Hunters have to more than Tactical Squads
>Assault Squads: Ours Suck
>Tactical Squads: This is one of out jobs.
>In some cases Scouts: This does require a Character, but sometime they are called to do that job.
In a realistic enrolment I only have one choice to do everything, Grey Hunters.
So they need to be Space Marines +1.
Space Wolves have always been an Excellent Shooty Army with Superior Counter Attack ability. And should always be they that way. I don’t mind paying a premium for this.
The Same with Blood Angels, they should be Space Marines +1 with Assault.
"Why do you want to keep want to make Grey Hunters normal Space Marines, we are not normal Space Marines. "
Because you aren't paying enough for your +1. And your +1 is more like +3.
">Assault Squads: Ours Suck "
Really? Don't get they get that rage power you were pimping for the BA before?
"Space Wolves have always been an Excellent Shooty Army with Superior Counter Attack ability."
This doesn't seem unfair to you? How exactly is one supposed to handle both excellent shooting and superior counter attack? You are making my objection for me.
"The Same with Blood Angels, they should be Space Marines +1 with Assault. "
Yeah, well, they aren't. And if you don't believe me, I'd be happy to massacre you in an army swap.
Martel732 wrote: Once again, it's not "whining" if there a mathematically unfair advantage involved.
Sorry but "I can complain about this as much as I want because it's true!" is not an effective argument and is just, in fact, MORE whining about the subject. The whining aspect has nothing to do with the *validity* of the argument, but the incessant and constant restating and complaining about it dozens of times over and over again in this thread and others like it.
So if a unit is mathematically unfair, that's not a valid reason to complain about it? What does a valid argument look like to you, then? Or give me an example of something that you think is worthy of discussion.
Martel732 wrote: "Why do you want to keep want to make Grey Hunters normal Space Marines, we are not normal Space Marines. "
Becouse they are not Normal Villila Space Marines.
Because you aren't paying enough for your +1.
>Yes we are, we cost more than a Space Marine.
>We have no Long Range Capability
>To get a “Sergeant” is cost us an Elite Slot and most likely a Special Weapon.
>We are paying for a Useless USR [Acute Senses]
">Assault Squads: Ours Suck "
Really? Don't get they get that rage power you were pimping for the BA before?
>I was told that and Immediately admitted to my mistake.
>They are over cost [Just like Blood Angels Assault Squad]
>WS3
>Can Not take Sargents
"Space Wolves have always been an Excellent Shooty Army with Superior Counter Attack ability."
This doesn't seem unfair to you? How exactly is one supposed to handle both excellent shooting and superior counter attack? You are making my objection for me.
No it is not unfair if I am paying for it and we are.
"The Same with Blood Angels, they should be Space Marines +1 with Assault. "
Yeah, well, they aren't. And if you don't believe me, I'd be happy to massacre you in an army swap.
Martel732 wrote: [You introduce variety in separate squads, not within the same squad. Try going all lascannons on the havocs and let other units do the anti-horde. Because MLs suck at that anyway.
Wow Really?? All this time I've been doing it wrong. Thanks for helping me see the light Martel...
Yeah right...if the way things are didn't work for me I wouldn't do it. So you build armies the way you want and I'll build armies the way I want. I've been playing this game for a LONG time and do things the way I do because they are quite effective and have been for years. I didn't post up my examples for you to critique them and tell me I am doing it wrong. I put them up specifically to answer your statement that you saw no reason why any non-long fangs would ever choose different weapons. I gave you examples and explained why. Just because it is not the way you do it doesn't make it an invalid approach and given I have plenty of experience in this game, I will happily stick with what works for me.
Martel732 wrote: [You introduce variety in separate squads, not within the same squad. Try going all lascannons on the havocs and let other units do the anti-horde. Because MLs suck at that anyway.
Wow Really?? All this time I've been doing it wrong. Thanks for helping me see the light Martel...
Yeah right...if the way things are didn't work for me I wouldn't do it. So you build armies the way you want and I'll build armies the way I want. I've been playing this game for a LONG time and do things the way I do because they are quite effective and have been for years. I didn't post up my examples for you to critique them and tell me I am doing it wrong. I put them up specifically to answer your statement that you saw no reason why any non-long fangs would ever choose different weapons. I gave you examples and explained why. Just because it is not the way you do it doesn't make it an invalid approach and given I have plenty of experience in this game, I will happily stick with what works for me.
Skriker
The only reason to take difrent Weapons is you are planing Combat Squading.
My two Devistaor Squads I do is 4x Plasma Cannons for my TAC list. The other is 4x Heavy Bolters, but that one might broken up for Tactical Squads to make a Second 4x Plasma Cannon Squad.
No, both BA and SW are on 5th ed codices. In fact, in a cruel joke, the BA codex is more RECENT than the SW one.But SW wipes up BA every time and twice on Fridays.
No, both BA and SW are on 5th ed codices. In fact, in a cruel joke, the BA codex is more RECENT than the SW one.But SW wipes up BA every time and twice on Fridays.
Yes so we are both do for an update. Thats why I created both Threads. There will be lots of changes including Price Changes everywhere.
Odds Are all of the Blood Angels will go down to be in line with Codex: Space Marines.
We are not a Codex: Space Marine Coppy Paste Codex, like a lot of the Codex: Blood Angels will be. You can look ar both Codex: Dark Angels and Codex: Space Marines and have a bsic concept of what you are going to get.
I have no Idea what we will get. That is part of the reason why I just want the Grey Hunters to stay the way they are. It will moke them more expesive than every other Space Marines Troop Choice other than Grey Knights.
Martel732 wrote: So if a unit is mathematically unfair, that's not a valid reason to complain about it? What does a valid argument look like to you, then? Or give me an example of something that you think is worthy of discussion.
Sorry, but you completely missed the point of my post. Go back and re-read it. I am not talking about the validity of the base argument at all, but the way the argument is presented. THAT is what people are refering to about whining. Trying to use the validity of the base argument to excuse the whining is what I say is invalid.
You've made your point, dozens of times at least in this thread alone. No one is denying the validity of your argument that grey hunters are crazy on the assault, but you KEEP making the same point over and over and over and over and over in response to everything. You even used it as a reason why long fangs split fire isn't important. That is how it becomes a whine.
Anpu42 wrote: I have no Idea what we will get. That is part of the reason why I just want the Grey Hunters to stay the way they are. It will moke them more expesive than every other Space Marines Troop Choice other than Grey Knights.
The reason I want them to change is because if they stay the same and get a price adjustment, they'll still be massively awesome against assault armies and even worse against shooting armies. I'm not a fan of big swings in balance.
Well still I look at it this way
Grey Hunter are based on basic Bolter Marines.
>Chapter Tactics: Counter Assault
>Special Wargear: Close Combat Weapon
>Cost more than Codex: Dark Angels or Codex: Space Marine Bolter Marines
This is why I see balance. Here are some examples of why.
>Black Templars get Crusader and Iron Will
>Imperial Fist gets to re-roll 1s with Bolt Weapons.
>Iron Hands get Feel No Pain
>Raven Guard get Scouts and Stealth on the opening turn.
>Salamander gets all sorts re-rolls with Flamer Weapons and Free Masterwork Weapon
>Ultra Marines can get to Re-Roll all of their To Hit or Re-Roll Assault Distance or Re-Roll Snap Shots each once a game, sometimes twice.
>White Scars get Hit and Run
Anpu42 wrote: Well still I look at it this way
Grey Hunter are based on basic Bolter Marines.
>Chapter Tactics: Counter Assault
>Special Wargear: Close Combat Weapon
>Cost more than Codex: Dark Angels or Codex: Space Marine Bolter Marines
This is why I see balance. Here are some examples of why.
>Black Templars get Crusader and Iron Will
>Imperial Fist gets to re-roll 1s with Bolt Weapons.
>Iron Hands get Feel No Pain
>Raven Guard get Scouts and Stealth on the opening turn.
>Salamander gets all sorts re-rolls with Flamer Weapons and Free Masterwork Weapon
>Ultra Marines can get to Re-Roll all of their To Hit or Re-Roll Assault Distance or Re-Roll Snap Shots each once a game, sometimes twice.
>White Scars get Hit and Run
All of them seem reasonably good.
Ability to take secondary special weapon.
Though this still shows how poor CSM is if it can't even compare to this.
The fact that you think Crusader and Adamantine Will is equal to Counterattack and an extra CCW is rather depressing TBH. One is amazing, one is silly.
Jefffar wrote: The GH don't get a LD up from a built in Sgt either.
That's only really a problem if you want to simultaneously ride in a transport and get the "free" special weapon. Other than that, I'd much sooner have Wolf Guard than Veteran Sergeants. Wolf Guard are much cheaper, have cheaper equipment options, have more equipment options (they can take termie armour and you can give some of them heavy weapons).
Yes, but they aren't as cheap as a normal marine sgt and I prefer to pod.
Jefffar wrote: The GH don't get a LD up from a built in Sgt either.
That's only really a problem if you want to simultaneously ride in a transport and get the "free" special weapon. Other than that, I'd much sooner have Wolf Guard than Veteran Sergeants. Wolf Guard are much cheaper, have cheaper equipment options, have more equipment options (they can take termie armour and you can give some of them heavy weapons).
Yes, but they aren't as cheap as a normal marine sgt and I prefer to pod.
Normal Marine Sgt: 24 points. Wolf Guard: 18 points. Wut?
Anpu42 wrote: Well still I look at it this way
Grey Hunter are based on basic Bolter Marines.
>Chapter Tactics: Counter Assault
>Special Wargear: Close Combat Weapon
>Cost more than Codex: Dark Angels or Codex: Space Marine Bolter Marines
This is why I see balance. Here are some examples of why.
>Black Templars get Crusader and Iron Will
>Imperial Fist gets to re-roll 1s with Bolt Weapons.
>Iron Hands get Feel No Pain
>Raven Guard get Scouts and Stealth on the opening turn.
>Salamander gets all sorts re-rolls with Flamer Weapons and Free Masterwork Weapon
>Ultra Marines can get to Re-Roll all of their To Hit or Re-Roll Assault Distance or Re-Roll Snap Shots each once a game, sometimes twice.
>White Scars get Hit and Run
All of them seem reasonably good.
You're paying 1 point for a free second weapon, chainswords, acute senses and counter-attack. Please stop complaining that you cost more.
Also don't big up the Black Templars Chapter Tactics. We get to roll 2D6 when running and pick the highest (great!!) and our characters are rending in challenges (EVEN BETTER).
I will admit the rest of them are very good, but I'd still rather have Grey Hunters to be honest.
Jefffar wrote: The Veteran sgt is a 10 point upgrade that doesn't interfere with your weapon selection or transport options.
The Wolfguard is an 18 point upgrade that compromises your weapon selection and transport options.
A 10pt upgrade from a 14pt marine. And, Wolf Guard can be equipped with Terminator Armour. A sergeant cannot. Wolf Guard can be equipped with a number of things a sergeant cannot. Please, you're fighting a losing argument. Wolf Guard are also not an 'upgrade'. It's an entirely separate unit.
Dread, Scouts Wolf Guard... and as I have bought a bunch of mech, maybe I want to try an Iron Priest... hmm wish I could use more wolf guard. But I cant as I dont get sargeants a an upgrade.
Dread, Scouts Wolf Guard... and as I have bought a bunch of mech, maybe I want to try an Iron Priest... hmm wish I could use more wolf guard. But I cant as I dont get sargeants a an upgrade.
All you have to do is take a single Wolf Guard out of a unit (IIRC). You can also get Terminator Sergeants with CMLs, Assault Cannons or Heavy Flamers.
The only time elites slots dont matter to me is in apocalypse.
Then its a free for all and I can use all 11 squads of terminator wolf guard, my squads of PA wolf guard and my biker wolf guard.
I also dont have my codex with me to back this up, but I thougt if you took wolf guard as pack leaders it wa 1 slot and a squad of wolf guard as a pack was another slot, you couldnt just pick and choose.
And for the stuff you quoted its 1 per 5, so it would deny that special weapon potentially to my wolf guards
Jefffar wrote: The Veteran sgt is a 10 point upgrade that doesn't interfere with your weapon selection or transport options.
The Wolfguard is an 18 point upgrade that compromises your weapon selection and transport options.
Vet sergeant is 24pts.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
dantay_xv wrote: And for the stuff you quoted its 1 per 5, so it would deny that special weapon potentially to my wolf guards
No, a squad of Wolf Guard is a single slot and is 3 to 10 models, you then break off models to use as pack leaders. So you could have a squad of 5 Termies + 5 pack leaders and it'd still only be 1 elite choice.
Anpu42 wrote: Well still I look at it this way
Grey Hunter are based on basic Bolter Marines.
>Chapter Tactics: Counter Assault
>Special Wargear: Close Combat Weapon
>Cost more than Codex: Dark Angels or Codex: Space Marine Bolter Marines
This is why I see balance. Here are some examples of why.
>Black Templars get Crusader and Iron Will
>Imperial Fist gets to re-roll 1s with Bolt Weapons.
>Iron Hands get Feel No Pain
>Raven Guard get Scouts and Stealth on the opening turn.
>Salamander gets all sorts re-rolls with Flamer Weapons and Free Masterwork Weapon
>Ultra Marines can get to Re-Roll all of their To Hit or Re-Roll Assault Distance or Re-Roll Snap Shots each once a game, sometimes twice.
>White Scars get Hit and Run
All of them seem reasonably good.
They're not.
Imp Fists: Re-rolling with bolt weapons is crap because bolt weapons are crap.
Raven Guard tactics are crap.
Black Templars are mega crap. (Sorry guys!)
Iron Hands is arguable, but I think SW is better.
Salamanders is arguable, but I think SW is better.
Ultramarines, frankly, I don't think are very good. Tiggy makes that list ,not their chapter tactics. SW is much better.
White Scars: best in C:SM. I'll say they are better than SW. Yay that's one.
Do you have any working concept of what make something good in this game? These abilities aren't balanced at all.
Martel732 wrote: So if a unit is mathematically unfair, that's not a valid reason to complain about it? What does a valid argument look like to you, then? Or give me an example of something that you think is worthy of discussion.
Sorry, but you completely missed the point of my post. Go back and re-read it. I am not talking about the validity of the base argument at all, but the way the argument is presented. THAT is what people are refering to about whining. Trying to use the validity of the base argument to excuse the whining is what I say is invalid.
You've made your point, dozens of times at least in this thread alone. No one is denying the validity of your argument that grey hunters are crazy on the assault, but you KEEP making the same point over and over and over and over and over in response to everything. You even used it as a reason why long fangs split fire isn't important. That is how it becomes a whine.
Skriker
So noted. It's just really hard to get past GH when talking about C:SW. It's not SW tanks, or dreads, or stupid guys on stupid wolves. Just like with Eldar, it's about something that is imminently spammable that is just not fair. It's just not as unfair as Wave Serpents, because at least GH have to get to within 12" to make my list disintegrate and can't do it from 60".
Anpu42 wrote: Well still I look at it this way
Grey Hunter are based on basic Bolter Marines.
>Chapter Tactics: Counter Assault
>Special Wargear: Close Combat Weapon
>Cost more than Codex: Dark Angels or Codex: Space Marine Bolter Marines
This is why I see balance. Here are some examples of why.
>Black Templars get Crusader and Iron Will
>Imperial Fist gets to re-roll 1s with Bolt Weapons.
>Iron Hands get Feel No Pain
>Raven Guard get Scouts and Stealth on the opening turn.
>Salamander gets all sorts re-rolls with Flamer Weapons and Free Masterwork Weapon
>Ultra Marines can get to Re-Roll all of their To Hit or Re-Roll Assault Distance or Re-Roll Snap Shots each once a game, sometimes twice.
>White Scars get Hit and Run
All of them seem reasonably good.
They're not.
Imp Fists: Re-rolling with bolt weapons is crap because bolt weapons are crap.
Raven Guard tactics are crap.
Black Templars are mega crap. (Sorry guys!)
Iron Hands is arguable, but I think SW is better.
Salamanders is arguable, but I think SW is better.
Ultramarines, frankly, I don't think are very good. Tiggy makes that list ,not their chapter tactics. SW is much better.
White Scars: best in C:SM. I'll say they are better than SW. Yay that's one.
Do you have any working concept of what make something good in this game? These abilities aren't balanced at all.
@AllSeeing Skink: I meant that its 1 heavy/special wepon per 5 wolf guard, so by splitting off my cml, or whatever, I potentially lose that wepon for the remining Wolf guard squad leaving them understrength.
Thank you for the clarification on the Wolf Guard ruling. Must bring codex next time.
@Martel: Instead of crap and arguable, please outline why bolters are crap, and other stuff is crap, or arguable.
What annoys a lot of people is when people like yourself make such sweeping statements without back up or examples.
dantay_xv wrote: @AllSeeing Skink: I meant that its 1 heavy/special wepon per 5 wolf guard, so by splitting off my cml, or whatever, I potentially lose that wepon for the remining Wolf guard squad leaving them understrength.
Thank you for the clarification on the Wolf Guard ruling. Must bring codex next time.
@Martel: Instead of crap and arguable, please outline why bolters are crap, and other stuff is crap, or arguable.
What annoys a lot of people is when people like yourself make such sweeping statements without back up or examples.
It was a summary. Bolters being crap is its own thread.
The poster up above had the right of it. SW "chapter tactics" are incredibly unbalanced. They do nothing to shooty lists at all. But god forbid you have a list that tries to do any assault at all. Unless you have MCs, you probably just lost.
dantay_xv wrote: @AllSeeing Skink: I meant that its 1 heavy/special wepon per 5 wolf guard, so by splitting off my cml, or whatever, I potentially lose that wepon for the remining Wolf guard squad leaving them understrength.
Thank you for the clarification on the Wolf Guard ruling. Must bring codex next time.
@Martel: Instead of crap and arguable, please outline why bolters are crap, and other stuff is crap, or arguable.
What annoys a lot of people is when people like yourself make such sweeping statements without back up or examples.
It was a summary. Bolters being crap is its own thread.
The poster up above had the right of it. SW "chapter tactics" are incredibly unbalanced. They do nothing to shooty lists at all. But god forbid you have a list that tries to do any assault at all. Unless you have MCs, you probably just lost.
BT are the ones who deserve counter-attack to be honest. Or at least something that didn't make us completely underpowered...
But anyway, I'd much rather pay 1pt for counter-attack, chainswords, a free special weapon, acute senses and have the ability to pay 3pts for +1 LD than have
(shudder)
Crusader, Iron Will.
There's also the fact that Black Templars have the worst SCs in the book.
The only redeeming part of Black Templars are 5-man las/plas squads in Razorbacks and even then they're not that good...
Be happy that you have insanely OP troops. I'm just hoping for a Black Templars supplement that will fix this mess.
Does this need explanation? Neither of these rules DO anything meaningful. As in help me win the game. Kill the enemy or prevent me from being killed.
>Imperial Fist gets to re-roll 1s with Bolt Weapons.
Tank hunter is way more impressive than this rule. Basically bolters don't stop anything that I care about stopping as a marine player. Bolters don't hurt other meqs worth a damn, Mechdar are immune, MCs don't care, Riptides don't care, the list goes on. 24" range rapid fire weapons S4 hits aren't scaring anyone. Ever. Do bolters scare you? I didn't think so. Even still, tank hunter is not as game-changing as counterattack/CCW.
>Iron Hands get Feel No Pain
Talk to the BA about how much FNP is helping against the top lists. Hint: not enough.
>Raven Guard get Scouts and Stealth on the opening turn.
They can't scout ASM. Or terminator. Or ANYTHING ELSE YOUR OPPONENT MIGHT BE SCARED OF. Stealth? Tau are like "Nice cover, bro!" This one pisses me off, hence the caps.
>Salamander gets all sorts re-rolls with Flamer Weapons and Free Masterwork Weapon
Formidable, but not as game changing as counterattack and CCW weapon of SW. As I said, this one was arguable as to which is more valuable.
>Ultra Marines can get to Re-Roll all of their To Hit or Re-Roll Assault Distance or Re-Roll Snap Shots each once a game, sometimes twice.
Most lists don't cough up for Papa Smurf. Since you get three turns of chapter tactics with no repeats. The abilities themselves aren't that game changing anyway. UM would suck if it weren't for Tiggy.
You're paying 1 point for a free second weapon, chainswords, acute senses and counter-attack. Please stop complaining that you cost more.
When have I ever complained that we cost more, this is stating we get a Close Combat Weapons and Pay for it.
Also don't big up the Black Templars Chapter Tactics. We get to roll 2D6 when running and pick the highest (great!!) and our characters are rending in challenges (EVEN BETTER).
I will admit the rest of them are very good, but I'd still rather have Grey Hunters to be honest.
So some “Combat Tactics” are better than others. If we went that far why don’t we just have 13 point Marines, 14 point Marines and 15 point Marines.
You're paying 1 point for a free second weapon, chainswords, acute senses and counter-attack. Please stop complaining that you cost more.
When have I ever complained that we cost more, this is stating we get a Close Combat Weapons and Pay for it.
Also don't big up the Black Templars Chapter Tactics. We get to roll 2D6 when running and pick the highest (great!!) and our characters are rending in challenges (EVEN BETTER).
I will admit the rest of them are very good, but I'd still rather have Grey Hunters to be honest.
So some “Combat Tactics” are better than others. If we went that far why don’t we just have 13 point Marines, 14 point Marines and 15 point Marines.
We should have 13,14, and 15 pt marines by the way these chapter tactics work. The whole idea of game balance is that some tactics are NOT better than others. If unit A, with all rules applies, is more efficacious on the battlefield than B, with all rules applied, then unit A should cost more. Period. No free lunches. The free lunch that the GH get are why people won't shut up about them. They are not fair in comparison to other marines. They cost too little or don't give up enough for their benefits.
Martel732 wrote: "Why do you want to keep want to make Grey Hunters normal Space Marines, we are not normal Space Marines. "
Becouse they are not Normal Villila Space Marines.
Because you aren't paying enough for your +1.
>Yes we are, we cost more than a Space Marine. >We have no Long Range Capability >To get a “Sergeant” is cost us an Elite Slot and most likely a Special Weapon. >We are paying for a Useless USR [Acute Senses]
">Assault Squads: Ours Suck "
Really? Don't get they get that rage power you were pimping for the BA before?
>I was told that and Immediately admitted to my mistake. >They are over cost [Just like Blood Angels Assault Squad] >WS3 >Can Not take Sargents
"Space Wolves have always been an Excellent Shooty Army with Superior Counter Attack ability."
This doesn't seem unfair to you? How exactly is one supposed to handle both excellent shooting and superior counter attack? You are making my objection for me.
No it is not unfair if I am paying for it and we are.
"The Same with Blood Angels, they should be Space Marines +1 with Assault. "
Yeah, well, they aren't. And if you don't believe me, I'd be happy to massacre you in an army swap.
You are also a Codex behind right now.
See what I highlighted. You said you were paying enough for what you got.
The problem with saying GH are just like Tac marines with a chapter tactic + special wargear (CCW) and thus only worth 1pt more... those 2 things synergise like mad and so while a CCW might be worth 1pt and counter attack might be considered (one of the better) chapter tactics, together they're worth a lot more than that.... but only against assault armies. It's terrible balance.
As an example, if you charge Tac marines with Hormagaunts, it takes roughly 2 hormagaunts per tac marine for the Hormagaunts to statistically be (slightly) ahead. So 20 Hormagaunts charging 10 Tac Marines.
Against GH, it's 3.5 Hormagaunts. So against 10 GH, it takes 35 Hormagaunts.
Now, Hormagaunts aren't great, I just use them as an example because I have a 'nid army with tons of them, BUT, they do have higher Ini than Marines. God forbid you try and attack GH with something that has equal or lower Ini, then it would legitimately take 3 times as many troops to have equal effectiveness vs GH as Tac marines.
Now, I'm not saying make GH like Tac marines. I don't want that. I've been collecting SW since 2nd edition when they were Ws5 vs Tac marines Ws4. BUT, the way it is now, it's just strangely unbalanced. GH are the rock to the scissors of entire assault based armies. But against shooty armies, they're no better off than Tac marines.
This is just bad balance IMO and I'd like to see it changed. Either bring back something like True Grit, remove Counter Attack, drop the CCW (I don't like that idea because it means you have to modify existing models), or boost all Tac marines up by giving them a CCW or the option of a CCW, so that way Grey Hunters are only 50% better at receiving a charge instead of 300% better (and you might have to rebalance all the assault based armies to make up for it).
Martel732 wrote: The free lunch that the GH get are why people won't shut up about them. They are not fair in comparison to other marines. They cost too little or don't give up enough for their benefits.
What free Lunch, We have a Chapter Tactic that is worthless, a Chapter Tactic that is Good and a CCW that we are currently Paying for.
You are the one that won’t shut up about it. If Grey Hunter were not brought up every time you post they would no be talking about them.
>Yes we are, we cost more than a Space Marine. See what I highlighted.
You said you were paying enough for what you got.
And what what part of that was a complaint, that was a factual observation.
We do cost more than Space Marines [Fact]
I am ok with that [Opinion]
I have never said we should be cheaper, I never complained that we were more expensive. I have even said I would be willing to pay more.
" I have even said I would be willing to pay more. "
Then that is an admission that they are not balanced. That's all anyone is trying to point out. Pay a legitimate price for the abilities of your models. Also, you keep offering up gems like trying to compare C:SM chapter tactics to CCW + counter attack. It's really, really hard to let that go.
Martel732 wrote: " I have even said I would be willing to pay more. "
Then that is an admission that they are not balanced. That's all anyone is trying to point out. Pay a legitimate price for the abilities of your models.
No that is not and admition of I think they are OP.
It is I like them so much, I would be willing to Pay more for them. Like once would be willing to more for a realy good Pizza
Expecialy if it would cause everyone to Shut up about them!
Martel732 wrote: So if a unit is mathematically unfair, that's not a valid reason to complain about it? What does a valid argument look like to you, then? Or give me an example of something that you think is worthy of discussion.
So then in the wold of terminators where 10 hammernators in the SM codex are 400 points and 10 in the SW codex are 660 points... then clearly SM terminators are a mathamatical advantage and need a massive nerfing.
The problem your running into is that you are so focused on just one unit your ignoring all of the mathimatical disadvantages present in the rest of the codex.
Hamminators for example. Or how about the idea that we can only ever have 3 landspeeder typhoons instead of 9, or we have no idea what AV13 on a dreadnought is. Or that our HQ options are all 125% of the base cost of their SM counterparts.
Now you might say that you have never seen an SW dread, well thats because you haven't played against me. I'd kill to make my dread an Ironclad. Yeah the WAAC players only take the most mathmatically advantaged units, but not all SW players are WAAC. But maybe the reason that GH are so point efficant is because there are many other units that get taken that arnt and the difference has to come from somewhere. Now maybe its not the perfect way to design an army, but GW has never been accused of being perfect.
FWIW, in my Hormagaunt example, that means (for the same points of models) the Tac Marines need to kill 8 of them with shooting to get a fair fight once they charge (you can buy 28 Hormagaunts for the cost of a Tac squad). Grey Hunters need to kill... negative 5. You can only buy 30 Hormagaunts for the cost of a GH unit and it takes 35 to kill them assuming they all reach combat alive...
Martel732 wrote: So if a unit is mathematically unfair, that's not a valid reason to complain about it? What does a valid argument look like to you, then? Or give me an example of something that you think is worthy of discussion.
So then in the wold of terminators where 10 hammernators in the SM codex are 400 points and 10 in the SW codex are 660 points... then clearly SM terminators are a mathamatical advantage and need a massive nerfing.
The problem your running into is that you are so focused on just one unit your ignoring all of the mathimatical disadvantages present in the rest of the codex.
Hamminators for example. Or how about the idea that we can only ever have 3 landspeeder typhoons instead of 9, or we have no idea what AV13 on a dreadnought is. Or that our HQ options are all 125% of the base cost of their SM counterparts.
Now you might say that you have never seen an SW dread, well thats because you haven't played against me. I'd kill to make my dread an Ironclad. Yeah the WAAC players only take the most mathmatically advantaged units, but not all SW players are WAAC.
^This and I am a Fluffy player willing to pay the 660 for Hammernairtos
Oh and now the 10 cost 450 for Codex: Spance Marine, Codex: Darke Angels, but not Blood Angels.
Martel732 wrote: So if a unit is mathematically unfair, that's not a valid reason to complain about it? What does a valid argument look like to you, then? Or give me an example of something that you think is worthy of discussion.
So then in the wold of terminators where 10 hammernators in the SM codex are 400 points and 10 in the SW codex are 660 points... then clearly SM terminators are a mathamatical advantage and need a massive nerfing.
The problem your running into is that you are so focused on just one unit your ignoring all of the mathimatical disadvantages present in the rest of the codex.
Hamminators for example. Or how about the idea that we can only ever have 3 landspeeder typhoons instead of 9, or we have no idea what AV13 on a dreadnought is. Or that our HQ options are all 125% of the base cost of their SM counterparts.
Now you might say that you have never seen an SW dread, well thats because you haven't played against me. I'd kill to make my dread an Ironclad. Yeah the WAAC players only take the most mathmatically advantaged units, but not all SW players are WAAC. But maybe the reason that GH are so point efficant is because there are many other units that get taken that arnt and the difference has to come from somewhere. Now maybe its not the perfect way to design an army, but GW has never been accused of being perfect.
Terminators are bad in every codex. 660 pt hammernators are just even worse than 400 pt hammernators from C:SM. Yes, they C:SM terminators are cheaper and have a mathematical advantage, but both are still bad, so that advantage is not even worth considering a nerf.
So you are now claiming that GH are bad in the same way that terminators are bad? Okay.
SW players that I have seen don't use the units you are talking about for the reasons you are talking about. Having bad units in a codex that people aren't forced to take doesn't make the OP units any less OP. Banshees are terrible but is codex: Eldar not the top of the heap? You call it WAAC, I call it having sense.
Martel732 wrote: So if a unit is mathematically unfair, that's not a valid reason to complain about it? What does a valid argument look like to you, then? Or give me an example of something that you think is worthy of discussion.
So then in the wold of terminators where 10 hammernators in the SM codex are 400 points and 10 in the SW codex are 660 points... then clearly SM terminators are a mathamatical advantage and need a massive nerfing.
Wolf Guard upgrades simply cost too much... SM terminators don't need a nerfing, you're just using (bad) hyperbole.
You have nerfing and you have boosting. SM termies don't need nerfing, Wolf Guard need boosting in the form of cheaper wargear (in certain areas). A WG termie with PW/SB is 33pts, compared to the SM termies which are 40pts bare (but come with PF), it shouldn't cost 30pts to upgrade the WG to TH/SS.
Sure, if you take lots of GH and then balance it by burning 200pts on overpriced Wolf Guard upgrades, you're self balancing the stupidly balanced army book. GH should be worse and Wolf Guard termies should have cheaper upgrades. One thing balanced poorly one way doesn't excuse another option balanced poorly the other way.
Martel732 wrote: So if a unit is mathematically unfair, that's not a valid reason to complain about it? What does a valid argument look like to you, then? Or give me an example of something that you think is worthy of discussion.
So then in the wold of terminators where 10 hammernators in the SM codex are 400 points and 10 in the SW codex are 660 points... then clearly SM terminators are a mathamatical advantage and need a massive nerfing.
The problem your running into is that you are so focused on just one unit your ignoring all of the mathimatical disadvantages present in the rest of the codex.
Hamminators for example. Or how about the idea that we can only ever have 3 landspeeder typhoons instead of 9, or we have no idea what AV13 on a dreadnought is. Or that our HQ options are all 125% of the base cost of their SM counterparts.
Now you might say that you have never seen an SW dread, well thats because you haven't played against me. I'd kill to make my dread an Ironclad. Yeah the WAAC players only take the most mathmatically advantaged units, but not all SW players are WAAC. But maybe the reason that GH are so point efficant is because there are many other units that get taken that arnt and the difference has to come from somewhere. Now maybe its not the perfect way to design an army, but GW has never been accused of being perfect.
Terminators are bad in every codex. 660 pt hammernators are just even worse than 400 pt hammernators from C:SM. Yes, they C:SM terminators are cheaper and have a mathematical advantage, but both are still bad, so that advantage is not even worth considering a nerf.
So you are now claiming that GH are bad in the same way that terminators are bad? Okay.
SW players that I have seen don't use the units you are talking about for the reasons you are talking about. Having bad units in a codex that people aren't forced to take doesn't make the OP units any less OP. Banshees are terrible but is codex: Eldar not the top of the heap? You call it WAAC, I call it having sense.
No it is more like the rest of the rest of the army is the "Tax" you pay to use Grey Hunters and Long Fangs.
Martel732 wrote: So if a unit is mathematically unfair, that's not a valid reason to complain about it? What does a valid argument look like to you, then? Or give me an example of something that you think is worthy of discussion.
So then in the wold of terminators where 10 hammernators in the SM codex are 400 points and 10 in the SW codex are 660 points... then clearly SM terminators are a mathamatical advantage and need a massive nerfing.
The problem your running into is that you are so focused on just one unit your ignoring all of the mathimatical disadvantages present in the rest of the codex.
Hamminators for example. Or how about the idea that we can only ever have 3 landspeeder typhoons instead of 9, or we have no idea what AV13 on a dreadnought is. Or that our HQ options are all 125% of the base cost of their SM counterparts.
Now you might say that you have never seen an SW dread, well thats because you haven't played against me. I'd kill to make my dread an Ironclad. Yeah the WAAC players only take the most mathmatically advantaged units, but not all SW players are WAAC. But maybe the reason that GH are so point efficant is because there are many other units that get taken that arnt and the difference has to come from somewhere. Now maybe its not the perfect way to design an army, but GW has never been accused of being perfect.
Terminators are bad in every codex. 660 pt hammernators are just even worse than 400 pt hammernators from C:SM. Yes, they C:SM terminators are cheaper and have a mathematical advantage, but both are still bad, so that advantage is not even worth considering a nerf.
So you are now claiming that GH are bad in the same way that terminators are bad? Okay.
SW players that I have seen don't use the units you are talking about for the reasons you are talking about. Having bad units in a codex that people aren't forced to take doesn't make the OP units any less OP. Banshees are terrible but is codex: Eldar not the top of the heap? You call it WAAC, I call it having sense.
No it is more like the rest of the rest of the army is the "Tax" you pay to use Grey Hunters and Long Fangs.
You still don't get it. Don't use the rest of the army. That's what my opponents do.
Anpu42 wrote: No it is more like the rest of the rest of the army is the "Tax" you pay to use Grey Hunters and Long Fangs.
That's just silly, you don't have to burn 200pts taking 10 Wolf Guard TH and SS. You can just take cheap WG Termies with PW/SB instead, which are actually pretty cheap at 33pts each.
Anpu42 wrote: No it is more like the rest of the rest of the army is the "Tax" you pay to use Grey Hunters and Long Fangs.
That's just silly, you don't have to burn 200pts taking 10 Wolf Guard TH and SS. You can just take cheap WG Termies with PW/SB instead, which are actually pretty cheap at 33pts each.
And the little detail of getting to ride in Drop Pods with combi-weapons.
Martel732 wrote: So if a unit is mathematically unfair, that's not a valid reason to complain about it? What does a valid argument look like to you, then? Or give me an example of something that you think is worthy of discussion.
So then in the wold of terminators where 10 hammernators in the SM codex are 400 points and 10 in the SW codex are 660 points... then clearly SM terminators are a mathamatical advantage and need a massive nerfing.
The problem your running into is that you are so focused on just one unit your ignoring all of the mathimatical disadvantages present in the rest of the codex.
Hamminators for example. Or how about the idea that we can only ever have 3 landspeeder typhoons instead of 9, or we have no idea what AV13 on a dreadnought is. Or that our HQ options are all 125% of the base cost of their SM counterparts.
Now you might say that you have never seen an SW dread, well thats because you haven't played against me. I'd kill to make my dread an Ironclad. Yeah the WAAC players only take the most mathmatically advantaged units, but not all SW players are WAAC. But maybe the reason that GH are so point efficant is because there are many other units that get taken that arnt and the difference has to come from somewhere. Now maybe its not the perfect way to design an army, but GW has never been accused of being perfect.
Terminators are bad in every codex. 660 pt hammernators are just even worse than 400 pt hammernators from C:SM. Yes, they C:SM terminators are cheaper and have a mathematical advantage, but both are still bad, so that advantage is not even worth considering a nerf.
So you are now claiming that GH are bad in the same way that terminators are bad? Okay.
SW players that I have seen don't use the units you are talking about for the reasons you are talking about. Having bad units in a codex that people aren't forced to take doesn't make the OP units any less OP. Banshees are terrible but is codex: Eldar not the top of the heap? You call it WAAC, I call it having sense.
No it is more like the rest of the rest of the army is the "Tax" you pay to use Grey Hunters and Long Fangs.
You still don't get it. Don't use the rest of the army. That's what my opponents do.
Then they are not Space Wolf Players, they are WAAC players.
In an 2,000 point game only field 4 Grey Hunter Packs [1 Scoring Unit per 500 points] along with Wolf Scouts, Long Fangs, Land Speeders and Lone Wolves.
Why should I be punished for playing a Fluffy Army
Then they are not Space Wolf Players, they are WAAC players.
In an 2,000 point game only field 4 Grey Hunter Packs [1 Scoring Unit per 500 points] along with Wolf Scouts, Long Fangs, Land Speeders and Lone Wolves.
Why should I be punished for playing a Fluffy Army
Taking competetive choices isn't "WAAC", nor does it stop them from being Space Wolf players. A WAAC player is someone who cheats, bends rules and "forgets" other rules in order to win, hence the all in "win at all costs". Taking good units in a Codex is actually the opposite, as you're sticking to the rules.
You shouldn't be punished for playing a fluffy army, it's just that the bad units in a Codex matter less than the good ones from a competetive point of view. Grey Hunters are more than 1 PPM better than Tactical Marines, hence that matters, whereas TH/SS Terminators are pretty poor as it is, so the discrepancy there doesn't matter as much.
Further, I'd argue that you're punishing my fluffy list by just having Grey Hunters in the list. If I assault a Grey Hunter squad with a Crusader Squad it's a tossup, 3 attacks per model (except you get Overwatch first) means whoever lucks out wins. If you charge me, you'll win. You're also better at shooting than I am, so you're forcing me to come to you.
Anpu42 wrote: Then they are not Space Wolf Players, they are WAAC players.
In an 2,000 point game only field 4 Grey Hunter Packs [1 Scoring Unit per 500 points] along with Wolf Scouts, Long Fangs, Land Speeders and Lone Wolves.
Why should I be punished for playing a Fluffy Army
You shouldn't, the codex should be balanced. WG with TH/SS shouldn't cost 63pts each when a WG with PW/SB only costs 33pts. Just like a GH shouldn't be able to kill more than it's own points weight in pure assault Tyranids without firing a shot.
Also I take offence at you saying "not Space Wolf Players, they are WAAC players." I've been collecting SW for 20 years and taking the options that are obviously the best isn't WAAC, it's just plain logical. A WG with a TH/SS is no more "Space Wolfy" than a WG with PW/SB... it's just one is overpriced compared to the other one.
Anpu42 wrote: Then they are not Space Wolf Players, they are WAAC players.
In an 2,000 point game only field 4 Grey Hunter Packs [1 Scoring Unit per 500 points] along with Wolf Scouts, Long Fangs, Land Speeders and Lone Wolves.
Why should I be punished for playing a Fluffy Army
You shouldn't, the codex should be balanced. WG with TH/SS shouldn't cost 63pts each when a WG with PW/SB only costs 33pts. Just like a GH shouldn't be able to kill more than it's own points weight in pure assault Tyranids without firing a shot.
Also I take offence at you saying "not Space Wolf Players, they are WAAC players." I've been collecting SW for 20 years and taking the options that are obviously the best isn't WAAC, it's just plain logical. A WG with a TH/SS is no more "Space Wolfy" than a WG with PW/SB... it's just one is overpriced compared to the other one.
And Geanstealers should not be able to kill off a copleat 10 Squads with out them even getting a swing, witch happens to me on a requalr basis.
Once more I will ask this and no one seem to have the awnser: How much should Grey Hunters Cost?
Anpu42 wrote: Then they are not Space Wolf Players, they are WAAC players.
In an 2,000 point game only field 4 Grey Hunter Packs [1 Scoring Unit per 500 points] along with Wolf Scouts, Long Fangs, Land Speeders and Lone Wolves.
Why should I be punished for playing a Fluffy Army
You shouldn't, the codex should be balanced. WG with TH/SS shouldn't cost 63pts each when a WG with PW/SB only costs 33pts. Just like a GH shouldn't be able to kill more than it's own points weight in pure assault Tyranids without firing a shot.
Also I take offence at you saying "not Space Wolf Players, they are WAAC players." I've been collecting SW for 20 years and taking the options that are obviously the best isn't WAAC, it's just plain logical. A WG with a TH/SS is no more "Space Wolfy" than a WG with PW/SB... it's just one is overpriced compared to the other one.
And Geanstealers should not be able to kill off a copleat 10 Squads with out them even getting a swing, witch happens to me on a requalr basis.
They absolutely shoud, because they're dedicated melee units with no delivery mechanism other than running that cost as much as a marine without any sort of save to talk about at all. They're the definition of glass cannon.
Then again, with Grey Hunters you have the option of shooting them. What do you think happens to a Crusader Squad that runs into a Genestealer Squad?
And Geanstealers should not be able to kill off a copleat 10 Squads with out them even getting a swing, witch happens to me on a requalr basis.
Well that's your problem I guess, Genestealers are good at cracking armour, but you should be getting a swing back and you should be wiping out a few of them with shooting first. Genestealers are 14pts for only 2 attacks, but those attacks are high Ws, high Ini and Rending.
They should be able to tear GH apart given what they are. An expensive, fragile, dedicated CC unit.
Once more I will ask this and no one seem to have the awnser: How much should Grey Hunters Co
I already answered several times. They are unbalanced, so putting a cost on them is damned near impossible. If they didn't have counter attack, probably 14.5, if they didn't have the CCW, probably 14pts. With something like True Grit, I'd probably say 15pts. In their current form, it is very hard to say.
Anpu42 wrote: Then they are not Space Wolf Players, they are WAAC players.
In an 2,000 point game only field 4 Grey Hunter Packs [1 Scoring Unit per 500 points] along with Wolf Scouts, Long Fangs, Land Speeders and Lone Wolves.
Why should I be punished for playing a Fluffy Army
You shouldn't, the codex should be balanced. WG with TH/SS shouldn't cost 63pts each when a WG with PW/SB only costs 33pts. Just like a GH shouldn't be able to kill more than it's own points weight in pure assault Tyranids without firing a shot.
Also I take offence at you saying "not Space Wolf Players, they are WAAC players." I've been collecting SW for 20 years and taking the options that are obviously the best isn't WAAC, it's just plain logical. A WG with a TH/SS is no more "Space Wolfy" than a WG with PW/SB... it's just one is overpriced compared to the other one.
And Geanstealers should not be able to kill off a copleat 10 Squads with out them even getting a swing, witch happens to me on a requalr basis.
They absolutely shoud, because they're dedicated melee units with no delivery mechanism other than running that cost as much as a marine without any sort of save to talk about at all. They're the definition of glass cannon.
Then again, with Grey Hunters you have the option of shooting them. What do you think happens to a Crusader Squad that runs into a Genestealer Squad?
Shoot them up good before they get close with around 10-20 boltguns/shotgun and then have a few models left to attack with after all of the rending attacks that impact.
Anpu42 wrote: Then they are not Space Wolf Players, they are WAAC players.
In an 2,000 point game only field 4 Grey Hunter Packs [1 Scoring Unit per 500 points] along with Wolf Scouts, Long Fangs, Land Speeders and Lone Wolves.
Why should I be punished for playing a Fluffy Army
You shouldn't, the codex should be balanced. WG with TH/SS shouldn't cost 63pts each when a WG with PW/SB only costs 33pts. Just like a GH shouldn't be able to kill more than it's own points weight in pure assault Tyranids without firing a shot.
Also I take offence at you saying "not Space Wolf Players, they are WAAC players." I've been collecting SW for 20 years and taking the options that are obviously the best isn't WAAC, it's just plain logical. A WG with a TH/SS is no more "Space Wolfy" than a WG with PW/SB... it's just one is overpriced compared to the other one.
And Geanstealers should not be able to kill off a copleat 10 Squads with out them even getting a swing, witch happens to me on a requalr basis.
Once more I will ask this and no one seem to have the awnser: How much should Grey Hunters Cost?
I answered that already: at least 17 pts.
People making good choices does not make them WAAC. Being "fluffy" is self-nerfing, which is great for you, but doesn't help me against the people I play.
Genestealers do not wipe out marine squads anymore, especially GH. Even rarer do they live long enough to assault.
Automatically Appended Next Post: BA Libby
Jump Pack
Force Axe
BA ASM Squad
5 more men
Power axe
Flamer X 2
Hand flamer
BA ASM Squad
Drop Pod
Melta gun
Infernus Pistol X 2
BA ASM Squad
Las/plas razor
Flamer
Hand flamer X 2
Sanguinary Priest
Jump Pack
Power Axe
BA ASM Squad
Las/plas razor
Flamer
Hand flamer X 2
BA Attack bikes
3 X MM
Baal Pred
Heavy Bolters
Storm Bolter
Dozer
Pred
Lascannon sponsons
Dozer
Furisoso dread
Frag cannon
Magna Grapple
Drop pod
Storm raven
Sponsons
Extra armor
This is a typical TACBA list I might use. It clocks in at 1815, but I didn't feel like filling in the last 35 pts. Please explain what in the heck I am supposed to do against GH and SW with this list? Other than die?
Anpu42 wrote: Then they are not Space Wolf Players, they are WAAC players.
In an 2,000 point game only field 4 Grey Hunter Packs [1 Scoring Unit per 500 points] along with Wolf Scouts, Long Fangs, Land Speeders and Lone Wolves.
Why should I be punished for playing a Fluffy Army
You shouldn't, the codex should be balanced. WG with TH/SS shouldn't cost 63pts each when a WG with PW/SB only costs 33pts. Just like a GH shouldn't be able to kill more than it's own points weight in pure assault Tyranids without firing a shot.
Also I take offence at you saying "not Space Wolf Players, they are WAAC players." I've been collecting SW for 20 years and taking the options that are obviously the best isn't WAAC, it's just plain logical. A WG with a TH/SS is no more "Space Wolfy" than a WG with PW/SB... it's just one is overpriced compared to the other one.
And Geanstealers should not be able to kill off a copleat 10 Squads with out them even getting a swing, witch happens to me on a requalr basis.
They absolutely shoud, because they're dedicated melee units with no delivery mechanism other than running that cost as much as a marine without any sort of save to talk about at all. They're the definition of glass cannon.
Then again, with Grey Hunters you have the option of shooting them. What do you think happens to a Crusader Squad that runs into a Genestealer Squad?
Shoot them up good before they get close with around 10-20 boltguns/shotgun and then have a few models left to attack with after all of the rending attacks that impact.
See, there's the slight issue of not having both BP/CCW and a Bolter/Shotgun due to not being Grey Hunters. You know, the thing we've been saying all along?
And Geanstealers should not be able to kill off a copleat 10 Squads with out them even getting a swing, witch happens to me on a requalr basis.
Well that's your problem I guess, Genestealers are good at cracking armour, but you should be getting a swing back and you should be wiping out a few of them with shooting first. Genestealers are 14pts for only 2 attacks, but those attacks are high Ws, high Ini and Rending.
They should be able to tear GH apart given what they are. An expensive, fragile, dedicated CC unit.
Once more I will ask this and no one seem to have the awnser: How much should Grey Hunters Co
I already answered several times. They are unbalanced, so putting a cost on them is damned near impossible. If they didn't have counter attack, probably 14.5, if they didn't have the CCW, probably 14pts. With something like True Grit, I'd probably say 15pts. In their current form, it is very hard to say.
At least 17. Maybe 18 or 19. That's how huge their assault impact is. Sorry about your luck vs Eldar. Guess maybe you should be less choppy.
Anpu42 wrote: Then they are not Space Wolf Players, they are WAAC players.
In an 2,000 point game only field 4 Grey Hunter Packs [1 Scoring Unit per 500 points] along with Wolf Scouts, Long Fangs, Land Speeders and Lone Wolves.
Why should I be punished for playing a Fluffy Army
You shouldn't, the codex should be balanced. WG with TH/SS shouldn't cost 63pts each when a WG with PW/SB only costs 33pts. Just like a GH shouldn't be able to kill more than it's own points weight in pure assault Tyranids without firing a shot.
Also I take offence at you saying "not Space Wolf Players, they are WAAC players." I've been collecting SW for 20 years and taking the options that are obviously the best isn't WAAC, it's just plain logical. A WG with a TH/SS is no more "Space Wolfy" than a WG with PW/SB... it's just one is overpriced compared to the other one.
And Geanstealers should not be able to kill off a copleat 10 Squads with out them even getting a swing, witch happens to me on a requalr basis.
They absolutely shoud, because they're dedicated melee units with no delivery mechanism other than running that cost as much as a marine without any sort of save to talk about at all. They're the definition of glass cannon.
Then again, with Grey Hunters you have the option of shooting them. What do you think happens to a Crusader Squad that runs into a Genestealer Squad?
Even my BA don't get a feth about genestealers. I really feel like we don't play the same game. That wasn't for you. That was for the poster talking about having squads wiped out by them. Which is frankly laughable.
It does still come back to: my assault army doesn't to well assaulting a unit that is better in melee. That falls into the category of "excrement happens". Yeah grey hunters are good for their cost, but they aren't a dozen pages of complaints good. They get just as beat up by the other forces that beat up on your force too. The problem is that your anger is directed at the wrong place. You touched on it a bit when you mentioned previously that 
out of us. I am sure Tau don’t even have a clue that we have counter Attack.
