Lurker wrote: I've looked at the numbers on the three weapons and the caress always just seems to be the most versatile and worth the 30pts extra for 10 men. The fact that all of the caresses power comes from 6s-to-hit makes it seem just as good against 'hard to hit' targets and auto glancing on a six makes it good against tanks as the other two. It's then a great deal better than the others against MC and 2+ targets.
That's the critical word you adroitly singled out in your post: "seems". It's true you can get a high volume of 6s To Hit and do some serious damage. But it's also true you can get far fewer 6s than you statistically should. It's a gamble that can and will disappoint at inopportune times. Not saying it's not worth the gamble--otherwise I wouldn't play with them--but to equip all your Troupes with Caresses transforms your entire army into a major risk.
The Embrace has guaranteed S6 hits at I10 for each model you get into base contact on a charge. It's reliant on the player putting those models in a position on the board to take advantage of it, something any good player can accomplish with patience and anticipation; in other words, the gambling level is significantly lower. The d3 part should be treated as icing. You get 1 S6 per model in base contact; anything more is a bonus. Thanks to Hit & Run, you can leave combat and do it again in your subsequent turn. And having auto-hits against a unit with Invisibility cast upon it is something that can't be underscored enough. There's nothing better than the look on an opponent's face when s/he realizes that what should be an untouchable unit is quite touchable. Can't get that from Caresses.
The Kiss has a one Hit die that is guaranteed to be AP2 should it hit. A unit of 10 Kisses has 10 AP2s in a pool of its own that statistically get through. Compare this to a unit of 10 Caresses where this is nothing guaranteed about it. I've had rolls for my 6-man unit where all of them got off the charge and only one 6 came up. Quite underwhelming. Though I've also had occasions where I had seven 6s come up, those occasions are few and far between. At least with Kisses I know some of my hits will definitely be AP2. The gambling factor is still there but again lower than that of the Caresses.
The other factor you bring up--that it's worth the extra 30pts to field 10 Caresses--does take away from other toys you can field in the unit. I personally like loading out my Caress unit to bear with Neuro Disruptors. Again, this brings the cost of each model to 30+, but having only six in the unit to fit on a Starweaver makes it worth it, as well as less likely to suffer significant losses marching up the field. The 60pts spent on two 10-man Caress units instead went to equipping 6 models with Neuro Disruptors for a very elite unit that hits extremely hard. I seldom fail to get my points out of that unit because my hard hitting unit is almost always cheaper than whatever I direct my Caress Troupe against. If my opponent goes out of his or her way to eliminate it after seeing what it can do--something that happens quite often, actually--then I'm redirecting from my other Troupes that are much harder hitting and the same or more expensive than the Caress Troupe is.
The Caress is great, but the gambling component of it recommends a mix of equipment so you have something you can rely on should you need it.
Embraces: I always pick my Warlord from this Troupe because there's no point not running and having the Warlord with the Starmist Raiment is tremendously useful. This unit always goes against weaker armor units or low front and side AV vehicles for quick wreckages I can then use as cover before advancing to the next target. It's also tremendously strong against units that have abilities that make it hard to hit the target such as units with Invisibility or perhaps the Culexus Assassin that requires 5+ To Hit due to the automatic setting of WS to 1. The Warlord's Caress and Haywire Grenades provides support against vehicles and 2+ armor, as well.
That's very interesting. Haven't seen embraces being used effectively. Do they have anything over caresses in your experience?
Embraces are excellent against Invisible units as they auto-hit. My highlight moment with them was against a full unit of Warlock jetbikes with a Farseer on a jetbike that cast Invisibility upon itself. My opponent was confused when I didn't try to deny it. On the assault my Embrace Troupe crashed in for a total of 20 S6 HoW hits, of which 18 wounded. By the time he finished his saving rolls only his Farseer was left. It was more than 3" away from my closest Player, so I didn't contribute any additional attacks and his Farseer failed to remove any models on the counter attack. He lost by 6, failed Morale and I swept him off the board. All because of Embraces.
They also do a bang-up job on vehicles. The Run and Charge ability helps you get the HoW attacks on side and sometimes rear armor. That they don't have an AP associated with them also helps avoid vehicle explosions against closed-topped vehicles so you have built-in LoS blocking terrain when you're done.
While Caresses can cause auto-AP2 wounds on a 6 To Hit, Embraces on the charge cause volume armor saves. In my experience they're equal in that regard. But one thing Embraces have over Caresses is you still get your normal attacks at initiative.
Excellent points about embraces. In fact you have convinced me to give a unit a go. The lack of explosions on vehicles is something I over looked. Nothing sucks more then losing half a squad because a tank just blew up in your face.
As i read it, you still get to resolve normal attacks on caresses.
They say, you get an auto-wound/glance on a 6 to hit. But there's nothing prohibiting you from resolving normal to-wounds.
So, for example, you attack with a caress and need 3+ to hit, get: 1, 5, 6. Emidiately get an ap2 wound and than resolve 2 hits (5 and 6) normally with s3-4. They don't eat up the to-wounds.
koooaei wrote: As i read it, you still get to resolve normal attacks on caresses.
They say, you get an auto-wound/glance on a 6 to hit. But there's nothing prohibiting you from resolving normal to-wounds.
So, for example, you attack with a caress and need 3+ to hit, get: 1, 5, 6. Emidiately get an ap2 wound and than resolve 2 hits (5 and 6) normally with s3-4. They don't eat up the to-wounds.
Am i getting it right?
Sorry, I didn't explain that right. Both Embraces and Caresses get the normal attacks at Initiative. The additional advantage Embraces have is the extra d3 auto-hits per model in base contact from Hammer of Wrath. A unit of 10, 9 of which have Embraces, can, if all 9 Embrace models get in base contact on the charge, get a minimum of 9 extra S6 auto-hits and a maximum of 27 extra S6 auto-hits at I10 in addition to their normal rolls To Hit at I6. That's what I meant to convey. Both get their regular To Hit and subsequent To Wound rolls for normal attacks. The Caress' advantage is 6s To Hit avoid the need to roll To Wound.
To summarize for a unit with 9 Players (non-Troupe Master) armed accordingly on the charge against WS4 T4 targets:
Caresses 36 To Hit rolls, of which 24 hit
6 of those Hits are auto-wounds at AP2
18 remaining Hits generate 9 additional Wounds at AP-
Total Wounds to save: 6 AP2 + 9 AP- = 15 saves to make, of which 6 will likely be unsavable due to no invuls.
Embraces 9d3 HoW rolls generates 9-27 auto-Hits at S6 AP-
7-23 HoW Hits force Saving throws
36 normal To Hit rolls, of which 24 hit
12 of those Hits force Saving throws against AP-
Total Wounds to save, statistical worst case: 12 + 7 = 19 saves to make at full armor
Total Wounds to save, statistical best case: 12 + 23 = 35 saves to make at full armor
I took the 1.5 average to be 2 misses To Wound for the HoW as worst standard case and rounded down for the best standard case on the 4.5.
The Embraces against game average units force plenty of saves. If you wonder how often you can get the full unit of models in base contact on the charge, my experience has been positive. I seldom get fewer than 6 models in base contact and often can get more thanks to the Run and Charge with Fleet rerolls.
The problem is getting 9 guys in base contact for all those extra hits. Gonna need a seer, proper use of run and assault, and a good charge to hope for decent results. Thats the main draw back to embraces next to the other choices. With the others, those sorts of circumstances are much more forgiving.
That's one of the reasons i'm reluctant about HOW. My main are orks and, running footslogas, i find it hardly reliable to get enough models in b2b right away. Well, harlequins have fleet to help them out but it's not guaranteed as well. Transports help in this case, however they're not that resilient.
But Tropic Thunder's example shows that it's viable.
I recently had an opportunity to test my "mostly harlequins" TAC list to take what is widely regarded to be the spookiest comer around these days-the dreaded Scatbike Wraithknight Seerstar Eldar list.
1) swapped Haywire scourges and a Haywire Bike out for the Hemlock Wraithfighter
2) Swapped my Embrace Starweaver troupe out for a Caress troupe.
All in all the plane did...okay, added to my leadership shenanigans and it does give me a defense against FMCs though not Flyers, I do think that I'll be very happy for it the first time I run up against big daddy flyrant though it wasn't a game changer here.
The caresses though...damn. Can't see myself leaving home without those again. They performed out of their minds and while I'd seen them on troupe masters and solitaires before I didn't anticipate just how much hurt a full troupe would put out with them. And they do an excellent job covering the Harlequin weakness vs stuff like Knights and Monsters.
Goobi2 wrote: The problem is getting 9 guys in base contact for all those extra hits. Gonna need a seer, proper use of run and assault, and a good charge to hope for decent results. Thats the main draw back to embraces next to the other choices. With the others, those sorts of circumstances are much more forgiving.
Just thought I would respond to the counterpoints made one at a time.
Need a Seer Harlequins need Shadowseers regardless what you arm your men with unless you intend to go with an entirely transported force (which I don't recommend).
Proper Use of Run & Assault This can be accomplished with appropriate screening and target selection. I like to place my Embrace Troupe as central as terrain and the deployment zone permit. I aim to place them in a terrain feature that has another terrain feature within sponson radius ahead of them 6-10" so I have somewhere to camp should Veil of Tears fail to go off or I get particularly unlucky on my Run roll on Turn 1. Discretion is the better part of valor with Harlequins, but particularly so with the Embrace Troupe. If the safest move is to go backward, go backward. Doing so actually plays into your strategy to maximize impact when you do charge on Turn 2 as the sudden "cowardice" is often interpreted as weakness. The opponent overextends to the point you're free to get a massive charge on the unit your following turn.
As for screening, I will use my Voidweavers as an intermediate road block that the opponent has to deal with first before they can target the unit behind. Dream of Shadows on the Embrace unit gives them a 2+ cover save as the opponent shoots through your Voidweavers, something they're less likely to do if they know what my save is. Instead they focus on the Voidweavers, often at a close enough range to be highly susceptible to my Turn 2 Run & Charge.
A Good Charge This is mostly covered in the second topic above. Fielding the Embrace unit as centrally as possible gives you many options depending on what your opponent gives you. I've had quite a few occasions where I considered one enemy unit the most likely to go after on Turn 2 only to discover my opponent does something unexpected that provides a better target, such as Gate of Infinity bringing a distant unit much, much closer, or moving a vehicle flat out I didn't think was going to be moved that far. Being centrally positioned provides this flexibility to really get the most out of the Embraces.
Can things go pear-shaped? Certainly, just as any plan can with any unit in any army. I have found these tactics with the Embrace unit to be the most effective to maximizing the output from them.
I took first place in a FLGS tournament (14 players) with this list recently. I tabled Space Wolves w/Knight, Astra Militarium, and won a close one against non-decurion Necrons. Every match was a turn 2 nightmare for my opponents... it was heaps of fun...
What was the thinking behind all the mixed weapons? Doesn't that make taking use of the Kiss/Caress kind of inefficient?
Why not run tau Skyweaver units so you can fire your haywire at something heavy while not wasting the other two weavers?
I've seen several people sticking haywire on a DJ. What does that give you? Shouldn't the path jester always be deployed somewhere he won't be using an 8" range anti tank weapon?
Sounds like an awesome time. How did you do overall?
koooaei wrote: No shadowseers and not much special weapons? That's interesting. So, raw s4 killing power? How did you manage to get your bikes into combat?
There was one Shadowseer in the list (she's listed), however she ended up doing little in the tournament, mostly holding objectives with a 2+ save. I rolled Peal, Peal, and Mirror on her powers in three games and didn't get to cast Peal. She put a wound on a Wolf Lord, that's it. But she also survived 2/3 games and was invincible as a deep objective holder with Veil of Tears up.
Getting the bikes into combat is cake, I'm not sure why you're asking that.
the_scotsman wrote: What was the thinking behind all the mixed weapons? Doesn't that make taking use of the Kiss/Caress kind of inefficient?
Why not run tau Skyweaver units so you can fire your haywire at something heavy while not wasting the other two weavers?
I assume you mean "two", not Tau?
Yeah that might have been better.
And I can see what you mean, I might have caressed something that was going to get ID anyway. It never happened but I can see that being a possibility. Three caresses might be wiser - or possibly specialized units with 3x of the same weapon.
the_scotsman wrote: I've seen several people sticking haywire on a DJ. What does that give you? Shouldn't the path jester always be deployed somewhere he won't be using an 8" range anti tank weapon?
Sounds like an awesome time. How did you do overall?
Overall I took first place going 3-0.
Haywire on a DJ lets him hurt large vehicles more reliably than his shrieker cannon. Also it lets him be party to wrecking Knights and drop pod dreads, as a BS5 haywire grenade and another one hitting on 3+ in assault is formidable.
Truth be told though, every game I take a HWG on him I have no opportunity to use it. Then when I don't take it I inevitably wish I did.
Congratulations! I thought you said you lost to the 'crons.
I only ask because I've had the habit of not mixing so ingrained into me at this point that it just really threw me to see the opposite all the way thru your list.
I currently run basically the same stuff as you, but split into squads with dedicated roles. A full squad of kisses, with the Starmist raiment and Psword on the master so they kill MEQs even harder. Another troupe with all caresses which has wiped knights and wraithknights with auto-wounds. And a third with all basic swords, 10-man loaded into an allied raider for mowing down hordes.
My thinking has always been that going halfway just means you'll take losses, when I would rather just specialize my squads so they obliterate their intended target and take the risk of them being not as effective against unintended targets. But it seems the opposite works too, and that's awesome! I'd love to hear the specifics of your games if you're the type who likes to write up batreps.
Just getting into Harlequins now, I'm not too familiar with them and am coming from a DE background.
Kisses do seem like a good generalist weapon, but I really like how Embraces and Caresses should be able to take out a 3HP AV12 walker on the charge (using squads coming out of Starweavers), especially with the help of a Troupe Master tossing a Haywire Grenade.
Do you guys think there's any major disadvantage to running all Embraces (perhaps with Caresses or maybe even Power Swords on the Troupe Master to take advantage of their one extra attack) outside of having to worry about the possibility of getting charged? Might be a fun theme running them alongside my DE with their Reavers too, having HoW and Hit & Run left and right. Spamming Caresses is appealing too, though I do like the anti-horde utility of Embraces and worry about that extra point cost.
MHaruspex wrote: Just getting into Harlequins now, I'm not too familiar with them and am coming from a DE background.
Kisses do seem like a good generalist weapon, but I really like how Embraces and Caresses should be able to take out a 3HP AV12 walker on the charge (using squads coming out of Starweavers), especially with the help of a Troupe Master tossing a Haywire Grenade.
Do you guys think there's any major disadvantage to running all Embraces (perhaps with Caresses or maybe even Power Swords on the Troupe Master to take advantage of their one extra attack) outside of having to worry about the possibility of getting charged? Might be a fun theme running them alongside my DE with their Reavers too, having HoW and Hit & Run left and right. Spamming Caresses is appealing too, though I do like the anti-horde utility of Embraces and worry about that extra point cost.
Personally I tend to run my squads with mixed weaponry with 2 caresses and 2 kisses and a Kiss or the Rose on the troupe master. The kiss on the troupe master will give you a sure way of delivering S6 AP2 in a challenge and will likely kill any sergeant or squad leader with the possibility of the occasional Insta-Kill on a character. The rose makes this even more certain.
I'm confused. How can a squad with embraces wreck an AV12 vehicle?
The squad with Caresses gets 21 attacks on the charge; so yeah on average you get 3.5 sixes. But the Embraces get an average of 10 HoW at S6 that only deals 1.6666 HP. Unless the vehicle is AV10 rear it's not dead.
My bad, was calculating that with Troupe Master with a Caress. That way it comes out to 8HoW = 4/3HP, Troupe Master doing 5/6HP and 25/36 by throwing his grenade. Comes out to 103/36 total.
Kiss with Troupe Masters that way comes out to 71/36. My point is that I'm not really sold on the Kiss even with the chance of Instant Death just because of its narrower range of targets.
the_scotsman wrote: I'm confused. How can a squad with embraces wreck an AV12 vehicle?
The squad with Caresses gets 21 attacks on the charge; so yeah on average you get 3.5 sixes. But the Embraces get an average of 10 HoW at S6 that only deals 1.6666 HP. Unless the vehicle is AV10 rear it's not dead.
maybe its a mixed weapon squad
2 embraces 2 caresses + haywire on the troupe master.
thrown haywire, 1 haywire attack, 2 embraces HoW and caress attacks.
lets assume the haywire thrown attack hits and glances.
Melee haywire causes .55 glances
4 Embrace HOW hits cause .64 glances
2 caresses cause 1 glance. Possible to kill a walker but pretty iffy. I would rather have 4 caresses against a walker- however average roll with caresses is not much better(less than a whole glance better on average), but the above loadout does give some also anti horde mojo.
Like I said I would rather have the 4 caresses, losing the special ability of the embrace because you get charged is no fun. If the walker charged the embrace/caress unit the results would be much different. Whereas if it got the charge off on a 4 caress unit the 4 caress unit may still kill the walker outright before the walker strikes.
Played a 1000 point game with my harlequins this week (had to proxy some stuff) against some Nurgle daemons. The Solitaire I was using was a total beast, taking down a few plague bearers and his Great Unclean One, which was awesome.
The more I use him, the more I love the Solitaire. The guy is just amazing. Give him the Rose and watch him wreck stuff
I think Cegorach's Revenge is a trap. While it boosts your solitaire's defense nicely and somewhat to vehicles, it makes you put way too many points into Jesters and Seers. You end up fragile and with too few bodies, and that's a recipe for struggling.
I think it's too much. The reason is they struggle to get enough warp charges to cast what they need to. A WC2 power needs probably five dice to cast somewhat reliably and at that point it's a struggle to get each seer to cast even one power each. If you're using WC1 powers or you have charges coming in from a non-harlequin detachment then it's more doable, but mono-harlies with 2 Shadowseers doesn't seem very good to me.
But shadowseers have pinning nades! Anywayz, for the points you pay for a ML2 shadowseer, hardly any other codex gets what you get. Orks get what...6+ ld7 dude that blows up his own head when can't cast a power.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Besides, an extrashadowseer is a wayto maximize the chance of getting the powers you want. You often want to both get a cance to force snapshots, to ld-slap the foes and to fish for shrowding or invis.
koooaei wrote: But shadowseers have pinning nades! Anywayz, for the points you pay for a ML2 shadowseer, hardly any other codex gets what you get. Orks get what...6+ ld7 dude that blows up his own head when can't cast a power.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Besides, an extrashadowseer is a wayto maximize the chance of getting the powers you want. You often want to both get a cance to force snapshots, to ld-slap the foes and to fish for shrowding or invis.
To me it's inexcusable that they have BS4 witchfire. Just awful.
And their power for their points at ML2 seems dubious to me, especially when they can be killed to easily much of the time. Taking three makes the rest of your list too small IMO.
koooaei wrote: But shadowseers have pinning nades! Anywayz, for the points you pay for a ML2 shadowseer, hardly any other codex gets what you get. Orks get what...6+ ld7 dude that blows up his own head when can't cast a power.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Besides, an extrashadowseer is a wayto maximize the chance of getting the powers you want. You often want to both get a cance to force snapshots, to ld-slap the foes and to fish for shrowding or invis.
To me it's inexcusable that they have BS4 witchfire. Just awful.
And their power for their points at ML2 seems dubious to me, especially when they can be killed to easily much of the time. Taking three makes the rest of your list too small IMO.
It's so inexcusable that...look! In your codex! GW must have FAQed them to BS5 while you slept! Amazing!
In all seriousness SS's are above average psychers. Probably on the par of like, inquisition and non-conclave libbie equivalents. They're outperformed by the top tier stuff like Fateweaver, Farseers, conclave libbies but they're solid enough to justify 3 as they have access to the best WC1 power in shriek.
The real trap of Revenge is the three death jesters. You're up against one of those rare armies where everything tends to be fearless like Tyranids, Guard, Daemonkin, Sisters, or where morale is severely mitigated like Space Marines, orks... They're really quite limited. Usually I see one or two things across the table from me where I go "hot diggity dog it's death jester time!" So I take one who can infiltrate so I can always start him threatening that target.
I think it's too much. The reason is they struggle to get enough warp charges to cast what they need to. A WC2 power needs probably five dice to cast somewhat reliably and at that point it's a struggle to get each seer to cast even one power each. If you're using WC1 powers or you have charges coming in from a non-harlequin detachment then it's more doable, but mono-harlies with 2 Shadowseers doesn't seem very good to me.
I see it as having more places to cast from.
If you have 3 seer, and only enough dice to cast 2 powers, you just have to work out how to get the most from each casting.
Also, redundancy.
Plus the 'nades.
I'm running between 3-4 shadowseers in a full army, or at minimum 1 (mask) along with a farseer. More seers certainly adds to the punch of the troupe with 5 Str6 fleshbane attacks on the charge, which certainly helps versus light vehicles / rear av10 things.
With more seers, you're able to split them into squads as needed for 1) more VoT, 2) redundancy and effectiveness, and most importantly 3) more chances at getting Fog, Laugh, or Mirror to actually use.
I ran Heroes Path for a while in most of my eldar based armies. Switching up to masque detachments, I like the flexibility of more shadowseers and better control of the psychic phase, especially within a unit where I can actually use VoT.
Gonna be assembling some troupes tomorrow
I'm thinking having one squad with a troupe master with a power sword/storied sword and 4 kisses on the rest for one squad, for mulching MEQ and anything else thats tough nearby
a troupe of all caresses for dealing with whatever is the toughest target
a troupe of 4 embraces and a caress on the master for larger squads
For the mulch squad, if it isn't already on your Solitaire you might consider the somewhat expensive arrangement of a Starmist/Rose Troupe master.
Starmist let's you survive overwatch with your vital HoW units, and Cegorach's rose is the only mass-combat weapon the harlequins have that scales with number of attacks.
the_scotsman wrote: For the mulch squad, if it isn't already on your Solitaire you might consider the somewhat expensive arrangement of a Starmist/Rose Troupe master.
Starmist let's you survive overwatch with your vital HoW units, and Cegorach's rose is the only mass-combat weapon the harlequins have that scales with number of attacks.
Couple of things here...
Starmist does nothing for the solitaire (implied by you but it could just be how you have written it)
Harlequin characters can only take a single relic each so you can't put both on a single model
The rose is rubbish compared to the caress on a troupe master and twice as expensive
The rose is rubbish on the solitaire since you are giving up the caress attacks (depending on how you play 2 CCW)
I would never, ever give my Troupe Master a Caress. More often than not your troupe master is going to be caught in a challenge either by your design or your opponents. In this case, you don't want to be rolling your 4/5 dice looking for that 6 because if it doesn't arrive your attacks will more than likely bounce off the enemies power armour. But if you have the Rose you get one attack that hits on 3's with a re-roll that wounds on 2's with a re-roll. That to me sounds MUCH more reliable then preying for that 6.
For the record, I play that the Kiss works along side the Caress. It just seems to be the intention of the rule to me.
mercury14 wrote:I'm not sure how the Rose scales with attacks.
It's definitely not rubbish on the solitaire though because it gives up only one caress attack.
That depends on how you play it. You can read it 2 ways and one of those two gives up all the caress attacks for the rose attacks
ALEXisAWESOME wrote:I would never, ever give my Troupe Master a Caress. More often than not your troupe master is going to be caught in a challenge either by your design or your opponents. In this case, you don't want to be rolling your 4/5 dice looking for that 6 because if it doesn't arrive your attacks will more than likely bounce off the enemies power armour. But if you have the Rose you get one attack that hits on 3's with a re-roll that wounds on 2's with a re-roll. That to me sounds MUCH more reliable then preying for that 6.
For the record, I play that the Kiss works along side the Caress. It just seems to be the intention of the rule to me.
I have never had anyone want to be in a challenge with my troupe master unless they are sure they can win. A single wound is nice and all but his other attacks are limp at the target. With his volume of attacks, a single ap2 wound is very likely (maybe even on par with the KoD attack) but he is cheaper and potentially more effective against more targets.
So given you would never ever give one a caress - what do you think is best? 3 troupes as part of a masque - what do the masters get?
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: I would never, ever give my Troupe Master a Caress. More often than not your troupe master is going to be caught in a challenge either by your design or your opponents. In this case, you don't want to be rolling your 4/5 dice looking for that 6 because if it doesn't arrive your attacks will more than likely bounce off the enemies power armour. But if you have the Rose you get one attack that hits on 3's with a re-roll that wounds on 2's with a re-roll. That to me sounds MUCH more reliable then preying for that 6.
For the record, I play that the Kiss works along side the Caress. It just seems to be the intention of the rule to me.
The Caress is good in a challange I find. usually gets a 6 roll and kills the enemy. I also find that most sergeants don't have much melee capability, since most armies I face are kitted for ranged damage though, so YMMV
Harlequins don't like being attacked back, so it makes sense to challenge their sergeant whenever possible to minimise return attacks as they usually have at least 1 attack more. 4/5 dice simply aren't enough to be assured of that 6 to hit on the other hand the rose is very, very reliable at getting that one wound, which in most cases is enough to kill a non-invul sv champ.
For troupe masters I'm a fan of kiss and starmist on warlord, power sword/storied sword on caress squad (some assured ap goes. Long way) and the rose in the third.
That depends on how you play it. You can read it 2 ways and one of those two gives up all the caress attacks for the rose attacks.
That's a terrible misreading of the rule. It clearly states that whenever a model is *equipped* with a kiss/rose then one of its attacks is a S6 AP2 ID/6 attack. The trigger is being equipped with it, not attacking with it.
If you want the Rose's rerolls you have to give up the Caress attacks, since toy are using some of the otger special rules. You could keep the S6 attack with the Caress atacks, but the Solitaire already has a Kiss for that.
koooaei wrote: You have more chances to get a 6 on a hit with your 5 attacks rather than to hit on a 4+/3+ and than roll to-wound.
Maybe with the normal Kiss, and I could understand an argument for a Caress over a Kiss. But the Rose is a very different animal. Your troupe master is Ws 6, he will be hitting on 3's in the vast majority of times. The Rose has Master-Crafted, so that crucial attack is re-rollable. It is str 6 so wounds on 2's most of the time with Shred. Also in following turns the Caress dips in power with the loss of the charge attack, a similar notion for Multi-charges.
The Rose scales with attacks because it grants Master Crafted and Shred.... So all your attacks reroll to wound and one can reroll to hit. Unless I'm interpreting the Kiss wrong, which is as a CCW that grants you one S6AP2 attack in addition to your other attacks.
Fair point on the Starmist though. I usually run Starmist/Power Sword because my Rose is on the Solitaire (so I can choose to either Caress or Shred with his normal attacks)
Keep in mind the suggestion was with mass combat in mind. Vs a light squad you want to be charging with embraces, usually you want to have the one, really reliable attack to whack the sarge, then the rest of the wounds can just roll over to the squad, and with Shred and MC you'll have more raw wounds and hopefully won't care about armor saves because you charged Guardsmen or Ork Boyz or something with your embraces.
If you have to give up Starmist though....things do get trickier. I think it might opt for Starmist/Kiss on the TM then. The kiss can reliably demolish a sergeant and Starmist keeps the squad alive thru overwatch.
the_scotsman wrote: The Rose scales with attacks because it grants Master Crafted and Shred.... So all your attacks reroll to wound and one can reroll to hit. Unless I'm interpreting the Kiss wrong, which is as a CCW that grants you one S6AP2 attack in addition to your other attacks.
The S6 AP2 attack replaces one of your attacks, it's not in addition to what you already have. But I agree that Master Crafted and Shred confer to the Rose's Kiss of Death attack. Shred is over the entire weapon's attacks. In contrast, the ID on a 6 only applies to the Kiss of Death attack because ID is included in the write-up for Kiss of Death, not for the weapon in its entirety.
Yep. It's not the most points-efficient mass combat weapon ever but it's pretty solid for the specific use that a TM has when attached to an anti-GEQ type troupe.
The TM can either be defensive with the Starmist in which case either a kiss or embrace works just fine, or he can go duelist with a Psword, Rose, or Storied Sword. Id never take the storied sword, and I think the Rose edges out the Psword for this type of unit.
How you equip your Troupe Masters is dependent on what role you envision it playing and in what detachment/formation you have for it. If you're fielding any of the Harlequin formations that allow Run & Charge, or if you're doing a Masque Detachment, you are best served naming one of your Troupe Masters the Warlord and equipping him with the Starmist Raiment. Every turn that unit should be Running, and equipping it or the rest of its Troupe with anything beyond the default Shuriken Pistols is a waste of points. The exception to this is if you have your Troupes in transports. Only then would it be acceptable to equip your Warlord Troupe Master with something other than a Starmist Raiment from the Relic options.
As for the remainder of your Troupe Masters, the next best Relic is Cegorach's Rose. Shred on anything is huge, but especially so on a model that is S3. Any extra advantage you can get for the predominant T4+ you're going to face is one to take, and the price point for it is fantastic. The Storied Sword is pricey, a bit too pricey for the +1S and one reroll To Hit. Useful on the charge, though, as you'll cut through MEqs decently enough.
While there have been some complaints about Caresses on Troupe Masters, I find them to be worthwhile. Consider a default situation of a bare TM on the charge. Both TMs have five attacks on the charge. A bare TM needs to roll all of its successful Hits in order to generate Wounds. A Caress TM doesn't have to roll 1/4 of its Hits at all. What's more, that 1/4 count of Hits will glance a vehicle regardless the rear AV. Neither a bare TM nor a Kiss TM can get that (Kisses do nothing vs AV13+). While it's dependent on dice rolls, so too are any other attack you generate. You just skip a roll with a Caress you would otherwise need to make with other options (or no option at all).
That depends on how you play it. You can read it 2 ways and one of those two gives up all the caress attacks for the rose attacks.
That's a terrible misreading of the rule. It clearly states that whenever a model is *equipped* with a kiss/rose then one of its attacks is a S6 AP2 ID/6 attack. The trigger is being equipped with it, not attacking with it.
I agree with you that you can definitely read it that way. The problem is that equiped is never defined in the brb and as such, we rely on the 2 special CCW rules to see what we can do.
Clearly GW intended (at least IMO) for the weapon to be used alongside the caress as we have a solitaire armed this way - the problem with that argument is the succubus from the DE range has an architect glaive and agoniser on the model and you can't use them together.
With no FAQ on the matter, and no firm basis in RAW for using it as a pair or not, I tend to explain it to my opponent and then play it as discussed.
When you have to rely on an interpretation of a single word to make it happen the way you like, it feels like you are fishing for a loop hole.
There are also plenty of items that cease to work they way they are intended if you must use them rather than just being equipped (SW dread shields save, eldrads staff, yriels spear...)
My point is having an adult conversation about it rather than simply telling someone that they are terrible at reading leads to both parties satisfied
Wasn't the DE Dex faqed to allow the Succubus to take both those weapons?
With the recent faq "updates" I think I read that as a change in the de one. Could be wrong.
Had a game with my harlequins against a tau player practicing for a tournament
Rand Cegorachs Revenge despite it being less awesome than masque + another harlequins formation, but it was consolidated
Solitaire with Cegorachs Rose
3X death jeasters
2X shadow seers ML2
shadowseer with mask of secrets and ML2
troupe with 5Xcaresses and Starmist thingy on the master who was my warlord
troupe with storied sword on master and 4 kisses
troupe with 4 embraces and caress on master
2X 6 bike skyweaver squads with glaives and shuriken cannons
solo void weaver with prismatic cannon
I ran one SS in each troupe, with the Mask of Secrets SS with the warlord.
this game taught me how awesome the Death Jester/Mask of Secrets combo is, and how amazing the Mask of Secrets is for any morale checks overall. The warlord's unit was amazing, killing off a riptide and a bunch of firewarriors. The Skyweavers did ok, but didn't make their points back.
The greatest moment was the turn after his farsight deepstruck into my back lines and was immediately wiped by my warlords unit and some skyweavers. it was beautiful.
Sadly I lost from points, but it was fun and I found that Veil of Tears is the best power IN THE UNIVERSE. Any long range firepower? lolnope
I agree with you that you can definitely read it that way. The problem is that equiped is never defined in the brb and as such, we rely on the 2 special CCW rules to see what we can do.
The word 'equip' means to dress with or array. I don't see why GW would need to make a rule defining that word in this situation. It seems clear to me that a harlequin is dressed./arrayed/equipped with a kiss when it has a kiss.
I cannot think of any other weapon that works when not selected.
A model with two CCWs selects one, and only that weapon has any effect.
Anything that would work in a way you suggest would by an item, like the Wave Serpent's shield weapon. It is an item with a weapon stat-line, not a weapon that also has other effects.
But:
"A model equipped with a Harlequin’s Embrace has the Hammer of Wrath special rule ...".
This is very similar to:
"When a model equipped with a Harlequin’s Kiss makes its close combat attacks, ..."
If the veil can block LOS to the other target, it does more than just protect the Seer's unit.
I theory, the 3 examples I supplied earlier all have effects that are tied to the weapon rules and as such don't function unless they are used in combat.
Eldrads staff can't harness extra charges as its used in combat but the rule requires it to be the psychic phase
Yriels cursed rule only applies if he is using his spear (so not in shooting or if he uses his eye attack or haywire grenades)
The SW dreads shield only functions in combat if you use it to attack rather than the axe and at no other time
All of these items simply do not work as intended if you stick to the whole - have to be used to get the rules attached to the weapon
Sadly I lost from points, but it was fun and I found that Veil of Tears is the best power IN THE UNIVERSE. Any long range firepower? lolnope
I seldom use Veil. It seems like whenever I make one unit un-shootable my opponent can just shoot another unit instead. There's no net gain...
No net gain? It keeps one squad, potentially your most expensive, safe from any long range fire. That is really really good, even if they target something else
There is a previous euling from GW where the dreadknight greatsword could give rerolls to its hammer simply because it was equipped and had similar wording. Unfortunately, that FAQ is in the void.
So, my original plans for an army vanished in the face of how blooming cool the Harlies are. So now I've ordered the beginnings of a 1500pt Masque Detachment. A couple of questions, though:
For my elites, am I better off taking four Shadowseers, one with the Mask of Secrets, or am I better off taking three, each with level two mastery?
Also, I'm taking two Death Jesters - should I drop one for another Shadowseer? I keep hearing that the more Shadowseers you have, the better.
Last elite slot is a Cegorach's Rose Solitaire, for what it's worth.
Robin5t wrote: So, my original plans for an army vanished in the face of how blooming cool the Harlies are. So now I've ordered the beginnings of a 1500pt Masque Detachment. A couple of questions, though:
For my elites, am I better off taking four Shadowseers, one with the Mask of Secrets, or am I better off taking three, each with level two mastery?
Also, I'm taking two Death Jesters - should I drop one for another Shadowseer? I keep hearing that the more Shadowseers you have, the better.
Last elite slot is a Cegorach's Rose Solitaire, for what it's worth.
I think 3 ML2 is better than 4 ML1, but if possible always give a mask of secrets to a Shadowseer, as it is amazing
I am usually underwhelmed by the Rose on a solitaire. It's not bad, but you don't get to use the Shred with the Caress attacks so usually the caress is just as good, and since he comes stock with the Kiss, it's basically 5 points more to give him the Rose. I tend to just stick Haywire grenades on him.
I would run the Solitaire, one DJ, and a Mask of Secrets ML1 Shadowseer in a Heroes Path, then 3 more Shadowseers (1 in each troupe.)
Hadn't considered running the Heroes' Path alongside my Masque Detachment as opposed to simply throwing everything in the Masque! That's a great idea, thanks.
The other major question I had: Is it better to run larger troupes and footslog, or stick smaller groups in Starweavers? Starweavers seem really, really fragile to me.
Well, you'll get conflicting opinions, but I am pretty firmly in the transport camp. I find that the extra move tacked onto your assault phase means you can basically move, disembark, run, then charge for almost 24" of reliable assault range. With that it's pretty dang easy to keep vehicles safe. Plus, they're actually not terrible at surviving thanks to mirage launchers. As long as you avoid any high ROF weapons that will definitely chew up the Starweavers and spit them out, they're generally ok surviving a couple Lascannon shots.
But I have pretty much always played Trukk-based ork lists in 40k so the fragile transport game is really familiar to me. It all comes down to what you like and what you're good at.
On Sunday I finally got a chance to test my "Mostly-Quins" list against a Necron Decurion detachment, which definitely resulted in some lessons learned.
The necron list wasn't the "competitive standard", but was still fairly solid.
He had a minimum Reclamation legion (everything with Gauss) with Nemesor Zandrek at the head, a minimum sized Canoptek Harvest with Whips on the wraiths and a gloom prism on the spyder, and a CAD. The CAD brought in Illuminator Xerath(?) a character I had never seen before with a squad of Immortals in a Scythe, a 5-man squad of Triarch Praetorians and a Triarch Stalker, a Forgeworld Tomb Stalker, a Doom Scythe and a Forgeworld Pylon (non-superheavy flavor).
What I learned is essentially:
1) Harlequin Troupes are pretty dang good at handling decuri-crons. Two troupes will reliably damage then sweep a full unit, and one troupe is just about perfect at removing 2-3 models then staying safe in melee for a round until they can hit and run out. Hit and Run paired with Rising Crescendo let me basically run circles around most of his army, and once the wraiths were ground out I was basically dictating the whole course of the game.
2) Freakshow Tactics are solid, but not amazing vs the crons. LD debuffs were great for helping me sweep in CC, but the usual Death Jester/Psychic Shriek/Archangel of Pain type shenanigans were really blunted by Res Protocols and LD10 base.
3) Don't forget to point a couple shuriken cannons at the scarabs. I wound up completely ignoring those little suckers in favor of trying to grind down the wraiths with pretty much all of my shooting turns 1-2, and 4 scarabs ended up pulling an easy MVP for the necrons, taking out the Voidweaver, most of a full Caress troupe and a Starweaver before I finally got my last shuriken-cannon toting unit around to wipe them out.
4) Wraiths are annoying, but not unstoppable. The best advantage the Harlies have against them is our initiative is high enough to stop their Whip Coils from being effective. The best thing is they don't have any overwatch at all, so your troupes can charge them without worrying about overwatch. Harlequins' Embraces are the magic bullet, if you have them. A 5-man troupe with embraces can deal 3-4 wounds to a squad of Harvest Wraiths before they get to strike, which is a pretty solid finishing blow if you use Shurikens and the like to whittle them down first. If I had been running against 5+ wraiths rather than 3, though, it'd have probably been a different story and I doubt I could've gotten away with not attacking the spyder first.
Overall I would rate Decurion to be a tougher match for the harlequins than Eldar, but not as much of a hard counter as SM obsec spam lists.
Robin5t wrote: The other major question I had: Is it better to run larger troupes and footslog, or stick smaller groups in Starweavers? Starweavers seem really, really fragile to me.
As the_scotsman stated, this is really up to play style. I'm firmly in the heelequin camp, fielding two 10-strong Troupes. But I do put a third Troupe of 6 in a Starweaver as a backfield minder who can go in either direction. The biggest fear I have fielding an all-Starweaver force comes from template weapons. Not only does the Starweaver get struck, d6 models embarked upon it get hit. Due to the low T and 5++ save it's unfortunately very easy to lose a good portion of your Troupe before you get a chance to do anything with it. In my local meta there is a high number of Grey Knight players who LOVE their Dreadknights. Thanks to Shunt it takes no effort at all to get in range on Turn 1 and toast the entire unit. With larger units of Heelequins I can at least spread out in a way to minimize hits and hang back to force them to come to me.
The other problem I have is losing Veil of Tears and a Player for the privilege to not cast it nor any other blessing/malediction while embarked.
the_scotsman wrote:On Sunday I finally got a chance to test my "Mostly-Quins" list against a Necron Decurion detachment, which definitely resulted in some lessons learned.
The necron list wasn't the "competitive standard", but was still fairly solid.
Good showing! Glad to hear you had some success against Necrons. Regardless what army I play, I found that the key to defeating the Canoptic Harvest is to take out the Spyder as quickly as possible. Dealing with the Wraiths' 3+/3++ is hard enough without the added 4+ FNP on top of it. I had the same experience with the Death Jesters. And the Shurikens against the Scarabs is spot on. If you can't get to the Spyder right away you might as well remove the option to spawn additional bases.
I had a tourney match against a Necron Decurion that had an Obelisk and a full unit of Lychguard w/ a Canoptek, Lord and Overlord deathstar. I was able to wipe out the deathstar save the overlord in two full turns of close combat: two units charging on Turn 2, H&R'ing and charging back in with one of the units + the Solitaire on Turn 3 while the other unit moved on to another unit. I made the mistake of leaving the Obelisk alone and choosing to sic the Solitaire against Immortals and the Caress unit against the Overlord to finish it off. I should've dual charged the Obelisk with the Solitaire and Caress unit, instead. That Obelisk tore me up something fierce...
How can you ignore it though? yeah you might be the fastest infantry in the game - when charging - but otherwise you are just a 6" move and D6 run while the lych guard can be deployed an inch away via night scythe or deep strike using obyron. They move 6" like you and charge 2d6... if they are close on deployment you will be caught and I cant see any harlequin unit surviving.
Bear in mind the necron army packs DOZENS of weapons that are more than able to deal with any harlequin models and in a well built Decurion - will still be ignoring your combat attacks on a 4+++ - potentially rerolling 1's
I am actually also curious about how Harlequin players use their Solitaires now that the codex has been out for a while and the heavy shooting armies like Tau have been updated. We get too few Harlequin players where I play which is a fine shame as they seem like they could be a really powerful army in the right hands.
As others said about the lych star - ignore it and dance around it. At most, he'll have two jumps (veil and obyron) to move it fast. Otherwise, it's quite slow and requires a turn to sit there before it can do any damage.
If you're not set on just using mono-quins, throw in a farseer and a wraithknight. That will take care of the sword & board lychguard fairly well.
The solitaire is an assassin and should be thought of as such. I usually deep strike him, unless I find an optimal place to infiltrate (via heroes path) when the enemy isn't going reserve heavy.
Don't over commit him early in the game, let him do damage turns 3 to the end. Most other quin players I've seen throw him away too early, hoping to rely on the 3++ or 2+ cover. Hide him, be sneaky, and then unleash him when the time is right. He's a great area denial unit as well as a turn 5 objective grabber if need be with his blitz.
Last thing of note, the solitaire is the ultimate anti-warp spider unit. Being I10, he can't be hurt by strength 6 monofilament, so use him as a backfield protector or a spider hunter against eldar. Versus tau, use another unit to soak overwatch, then throw him into combat. Anything not I6 will get auto-swept versus him. Even then, I6 needs to roll a 6 and the solitaire a 1, haha.
Ignore the Lychstar. Other possibilities: throw Invisibility on a solitaire or something and just let him tank for a round.
Or be in a Starweaver and just move 24" away.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The solitaire I don't tend to use as an assassin, I have troupes and Skyweaver death squads for that (I pair them with an Autarch with Shard of Anaris for instant death challenges).
The solitaire is frequently my tank. He's there to stop things that have low volume of scary attacks that would hurt my troupes too badly.
In my last game, he was in combat with Maulerfiends for 5 full rounds of cc, tying them up until i could finish them off. Previously he has also fought chapter master smasher and a Riptide highly effectively.
Had a game against Tau today with my harlequins (small bit of dark angels allies)
Solitaire with rose spent half the game hit'n running on his Stormsurge, eventually killing it after several turns and a bit of support, along with his Blitz.
He is great at tying up stuff
I have actually multi-charged a Necron Lychstar with moderate success. The volume of close combat attacks wears it down. If one of the charging units is armed with Embraces, all the better. Of course, I run larger Troupe units than most do (two 10-man and one 6-man). If it persists to the end of the opponent's turn, H&R then come back in, either with one or both of the units initially involved or with another fresh unit that's just arriving.
I aim the Solitaire at vehicles or smaller support units to cut them down. He tends to draw attention quickly, so the investment of resources against him pays off as much as the destruction he causes.
I took 6th place at a GT last weekend running pure Harlies. I tabled Centstar and and Eldar list with scatbikes/warp spiders/Sathkatch. And I beat an Infernal Tetrad list.
I also came close to pulling off an upset against Dark Angel Battle Company.
mercury14 wrote: I took 6th place at a GT last weekend running pure Harlies. I tabled Centstar and and Eldar list with scatbikes/warp spiders/Sathkatch. And I beat an Infernal Tetrad list.
I also came close to pulling off an upset against Dark Angel Battle Company.
mercury14 wrote: I took 6th place at a GT last weekend running pure Harlies. I tabled Centstar and and Eldar list with scatbikes/warp spiders/Sathkatch. And I beat an Infernal Tetrad list.
I also came close to pulling off an upset against Dark Angel Battle Company.
Most of those opponents I can believe, but how in Hades did you table the Eldar list? Was the Eldar player unfamiliar with the Harlie rules, or just overall incompetent?
Most of those opponents I can believe, but how in Hades did you table the Eldar list? Was the Eldar player unfamiliar with the Harlie rules, or just overall incompetent?
The Eldar player was fine and he personally owned a copy of the Harlequin book. Also he stole initiative against me.
2x Farseers on Jetbikes
4x4 Scatbikes
Aspect Host of 3x units of Dark Reapers nested in elevated ruins
Aspect Host of 3x units of Warp Spiders
Warp Hunter
Sathkatch Wraithknight
(technically I didn't table him, he had a wounded Sathkatch and a Farseer left and conceded)
Most of those opponents I can believe, but how in Hades did you table the Eldar list? Was the Eldar player unfamiliar with the Harlie rules, or just overall incompetent?
The Eldar player was fine and he personally owned a copy of the Harlequin book. Also he stole initiative against me.
2x Farseers on Jetbikes
4x4 Scatbikes
Aspect Host of 3x units of Dark Reapers nested in elevated ruins
Aspect Host of 3x units of Warp Spiders
Warp Hunter
Sathkatch Wraithknight
ok, so you had plenty of str6 shooting that took out his Scatterbikes, then it was easy to kill his Reapers & Spiders in CC? Nice. he only have 1 vehicle, so yay! Haywire cannons
Mostly I just re-deployed to his deployment zone turn one, took some lumps losing half my transports and my Shadowseer...
Then turn two I made seven successful assaults including into all his Aspect Host units except one. My Skyweaver bikes took out his warp Hunter. I got his scatbikes to jink with the S5 AP3 Void Weaver blasts and jester fire. One of his scatbike units fled off the map after losing on model. The key is to spread attacks against them around to make them jink or check morale.
Warp spiders wound off initiative so harlies treat them as lasguns. And the Sathkatch isn't very good against them for the same reason.
Yeah, harlies are a surprisingly good opponent for your usual cheesy Eldar as long as you get the chance to shoot his Scatbikes a bit. If they manage to crack all your transports you're doomed but if you get in his face and force those jinks you can win easier than most armies.
I'm way more impressed that he almost managed to beat a battle company. Army wide Obsec and free rhinos always just demolishes me.
And while the Spiders may be rolling 4's to wound, in general, the Sasquatch is wounding on 3''s with a reroll. Even more dangerous when you take into account hiding in a vehicle isn't safe with the extra hits open topped supplies (though here it seems you jumped out in time).
Amazing. He only died once the entire tournament and killed a ton of things. His most epic moment was throwing five 6's on caress attacks against an invisible Centstar, then the following round when Calgar had only wound wound left, ending him with the Rose. I've found him to be *much* better in this list compared to Cegorach's Revenge because the six Troupes running interference for him.
Against opponents who aren't running hordes or high-volume ignores cover shooting he can do well without support with that 2+ cover save.
Versus the Dark Angel battle company I sent him off on his own to try to get his inquisitor warlord out of a Rhino but couldn't quite get the timing right to pop the Rhino with shooting then assault him with the Solitaire. So the Solitaire turned tank inside out, then the Inquisitor then kicked guys out of a nearby Razorback so he could get in... then my shooting only put 2 HP on it (argh), and the solitaire had to pop it himself - only to watch the cowardly mon Keigh scurry into *another* Razorback....
You said he stole on you, meaning he had two shooting phases to destroy only 3 of your transports? That's some miserable luck.
It count have been much worse. Turn one I lost two transports, my Shadowseer, and had a Troupe get shot up a bit. The Scatbikes rolled poorly (and one moved flat out to grab an objective), it was the Reapers that were killing stuff. He deployed his Spiders on the map but held them back.
Turn two half his scatbike units were dead, the other two were snap firing, and since my army had already arrived, he chose to have his spiders shoot Troupes on foot. He also made the decision to shoot some stuff at the solitaire but to no effect.
Goobi2 wrote: And while the Spiders may be rolling 4's to wound, in general, the Sasquatch is wounding on 3''s with a reroll. Even more dangerous when you take into account hiding in a vehicle isn't safe with the extra hits open topped supplies (though here it seems you jumped out in time).
Ah, I didn't know Sathkathes have shred. Neither did my opponent apparently.
You said he stole on you, meaning he had two shooting phases to destroy only 3 of your transports? That's some miserable luck.
It count have been much worse. Turn one I lost two transports, my Shadowseer, and had a Troupe get shot up a bit. The Scatbikes rolled poorly (and one moved flat out to grab an objective), it was the Reapers that were killing stuff. He deployed his Spiders on the map but held them back.
Turn two half his scatbike units were dead, the other two were snap firing, and since my army had already arrived, he chose to have his spiders shoot Troupes on foot. He also made the decision to shoot some stuff at the solitaire but to no effect.
That doesn't make any sense. Nothing in your army was capable of killing anything in your turn 1 by your previous description of how your turn transpired.
Massaen wrote: That harlequin list is illegal or at the very least unbound - as its written there anyway.
I assume some of the starweavers are actually FA choices?
How many points is the list?
It says it is 2 Masques (one with 3xTroop, 1x FA and 1x HS and another with 3xTroop and 1x HS) and Heroes.
It looks legal.
There is no HQ option needed in the Masque version of the CAD.
I get points to 1859, so I assume a 1875 with a couple of grenades forgotten.
I missed that bit.
Take 2 of the Starweavers of the first Masque as FA not DT, and the Skyweavers in the other list.
So you are right. As written, it is not legal.
New tactics I have not seen discussed yet with Freakshow lists and Harlequins but I have a found a way to bypass ATSKNF and wipe entire deathstars with a well coordinated strike.
Requirement:
Death Jesters
A squad of Harlies with a Shadowseer with a Mask of Secrets.
Add an Archon with Armor of misery for extra safety.
Opposing Deathstar must not be fearless. (It happens, people rely on ATSKNF alot).
By now I can see you rolling your eyes at what this guy is thinking and it's allright but I ran it by two other guys and one TO who after reading the same thing came to the same conclusion. I am fairly sure of myself with this.
Step 1: Inflict a casualty on a unit with a Death Jester.
This will cause an LD test at -2 and possibly -4 or -6 depending on the proximity of the other squad members.
Step 2: Cause the Deathstar to flee towards the squad during the shooting phase.
Step 3: Assault the fleeing deathstar.
A fleeing unit has no overwatch.
A fleeing unit being charged must make an LD Test (At -4 because of the Shadowseer and Archon).
If it succeeds, fight as normal.
If it fails, the unit is destroyed.
Now...ATSKNF mentions the unit cannot be sweeped at the END of the assault phase but the LD test for the unit's destruction happens BEFORE any blows are struck.
ATSKNF specifically mentions Sweeping Advance and staying locked in combat but DOES NOT MENTION ANYTHING ELSE.
ATSKNF means you rally automatically at the beginning of the Marine's turn not during your turn so the unit is considered as fleeing just like fleeing SM within 3" of an objective cannot claim or contest while they flee.
This is just one more trick up the Laughing God's sleeve against the servants of the Emperor and honestly against anyone else. Want to to wipe a unit and bypass the assault phase? Time yourself right, positioning is the key.
Conclusion:
- I know it is not a reliable tactic to build an army around BUT many Harlequin armies use the Mask of secrets, have Death Jesters and just throwing an Archon in there is not a stretch. It is nice if you can pull it off or bait the other deathstar in a trap but fight as you usually do but remember the trick.
- I do not caution using this for a friendly game. It's a dick move.
- If you pull that during a tournament, you will probably need to call the judge over so make sure to bookmark the page for ATSKNF and charging a fleeing unit.
ATSKNF states the unit automatically passes Regroup tests. When assaulting a unit that is Falling Back, the unit must always test to Regroup as soon as the enemy charges.
ATSKNF will kick in immediately and then you've just given the deathstar free movement not only towards you, but also munching through a unit you've invested a lot of LD debuffs into, then consolidating a futher d6" closer, not counting any pile ins.
Massaen wrote: That harlequin list is illegal or at the very least unbound - as its written there anyway.
I assume some of the starweavers are actually FA choices?
How many points is the list?
It's legal, I just listed the Weavers under Troupes for organizational sake. Technically they're listed wrong, however it's much easier to read this way. In the Army Builder handout I give to my opponents they're listed the correct way or course.
I get points to 1859, so I assume a 1875 with a couple of grenades forgotten.
No, you're right. I didn't have my list in front of me when I was posting (and still don't), the +9 pts is from a couple minor difference in the troupes, probably in Troupe #3 in the second masque. But you get the gist of the list I take it.
Erik_Morkai wrote: New tactics I have not seen discussed yet with Freakshow lists and Harlequins but I have a found a way to bypass ATSKNF and wipe entire deathstars with a well coordinated strike.
Rypher wrote: ATSKNF states the unit automatically passes Regroup tests. When assaulting a unit that is Falling Back, the unit must always test to Regroup as soon as the enemy charges.
ATSKNF will kick in immediately and then you've just given the deathstar free movement not only towards you, but also munching through a unit you've invested a lot of LD debuffs into, then consolidating a futher d6" closer, not counting any pile ins.
I see the part about the regrouping in the charging a fleeing unit, my confusion came from the wording used that the unit charged performs a normal LD test (Characteristics check) not a morale/regroup check which are two different things.
Rypher wrote: ATSKNF states the unit automatically passes Regroup tests. When assaulting a unit that is Falling Back, the unit must always test to Regroup as soon as the enemy charges.
ATSKNF will kick in immediately and then you've just given the deathstar free movement not only towards you, but also munching through a unit you've invested a lot of LD debuffs into, then consolidating a futher d6" closer, not counting any pile ins.
This is unfortunately totally right and also...kinda obvious. It's right after the section called "regrouping" and it's a section called "regrouping when assaulted"
And They Shall Obey No Rules says "automatically passes regroup tests." So they auto pass it unfortunately.
Agreed re: ATSKNF allowing the unit to auto-regroup before you charge. Experienced this myself when going up against Long Fangs I managed to succeed with a failed Morale Check from DJ fire.
But here's a different tactic with Harlequins I was able to execute against Space Wolves. I field a Masque as my Primary Detachment with one DJ (could have more but based on what I put together had room for only one). I include an Eldar Shadow Spectre Shrine formation that has the one Exarch in it. With DS I get the Exarch's unit to arrive close to a primary target of interest, usually those pesky Dev Squads, Long Fangs and the like. If they don't arrive close enough a good Battle Focus roll usually gets them in 12" range of my desired target. The Exarch has a built-in rule that forces all Morale and Pinning checks to be made with 3d6 and keeping the highest two values. Coupled with the DJ's -2Ld penalty you improve your chances of a failure without having to orient too many other Ld bomb units in proximity of the targeted unit, especially since the Exarch's power works at a range of 12" to the unit, not to models within 12" (unlike Mask of Secrets). As mentioned above, I was able to make the Long Fangs fail Morale and run towards my Warlord Troupe, enabling that unit to get out from the middle of the board, charge the Long Fangs in a ruin terrain, wipe them out with Embrace HoW damage and consolidate safely within the ruin.
Besides granting the alternative Ld bomb option, the Shadow Spectres did a tremendous job singling out mech targets with combinations of Haywire fire (cannon and solo grenade lobs) and Prismatic Rifle Lance fire, then Thrust Moving away on 3d6-keep-highest-two to safer positions on the board. They really freed up my Masque to focus on non-vehicle targets and really screw with the opponent's target prioritization.
pm713 wrote: Sorry to go a bit off topic but how have you found Shadow Spectres?
With only one game under my belt I found them to be very strong, particularly in the formation. Their mobility is incredible and is an excellent complement to a Harlequin force's quickness. I had two three-man squads and the Exarch's squad with four. I will definitely field them as a larger unit in an Eldar force, but as the only way to do that with Harlequins is to field two other aspects in an Aspect Host formation the Shadow Spectre Shrine was a better option for me. They only took up 280pts in my list, leaving plenty of room for a substantial Harlequin contingent.
I'm not sure how they'll be received against a force with less mechanized units in it such as Daemons. They aren't Fearless, though, so the Exarch's power works on them, something that can pay off huge dividends when resolving Daemonic Instability rolls. Forcing the opponent to roll 3d6 and keep the highest two dice after getting smacked around in close combat by our deadly Troupes can certainly improve the chances of Blinking Out at best and losing 4-6 models on average. Tau have very little in the way of mechanized units in typical lists I've seen--at least compared to other armies--but are extremely susceptible to Ld bombs in the Psychic, Shooting and Assault. Shadowseer Pinning checks, DJ shenanigans, Psychic Shriek if you so desire, and Fear tests would all come into play against them. Same goes for Eldar, though they have some units that auto-pass these tests (Warp Spiders, Wraith constructs) and others that get to reroll failed tests (Aspect Host, Dire Avenger Shrine), so it's not as effective as one would like. In this situation I don't see the true efficacy of Shadow Spectres coming into play.
Thought I might brainstorm here to see what people can suggest...
I have a 1500 point event in about 4 weeks time. Max 3 detachments and max 1 LoW. I want to run harlequins as at least 1 of those detachments. I can also run pretty much whatever I feel like for allies from Eldar/Dark Eldar since I have more than enough of a collection to field what ever might be suggested.
The Harlequins available are as follows...
Solitaire
3 Shadow Seers (could stretch to 6 if need be thanks to RT models)
3 Death jesters (could stretch to 6 if need be thanks to RT models)
3 Star Weavers
4 Sky Weavers with glaive and haywire
1 void weaver (either gun available)
2 troupes of the following - master with caress, 1 caress, 1 embrace, 3 kiss (current plastics)
1 troupe of the following - master with sword, 2 kiss/fusion, 3 kiss, 2 naked (metal troupe from 4th ed)
Obviously I could run a revenge or Masque or a couple of the formations (Heroes Path plus Jest for example) but I am thinking since the event is going to see knights, deathstars and so on, I need to add some helpers for the clowns...
In a larger event with little to no playtesting time, run with the Heroes. It's a quick slot and fills your harlequin needs.
If you do have time to play more, why not try a masque + eldar? An inferno knight will help a lot in terms of vehicle killing, flyer defense (6-10 str8 ap1 melta shots will hurt any flyer, especially when guided).
I'm a fan of 2 caress units and an embrace unit, for lots of wounds to be spread around to "safe" assault units.
Lastly, I'm still trying a skyweaver unit with a few farseers (3-4). Not sure how well it will hold up, but it seems decent especially in nova formats.
My harlequin troupes are run with one 5 man unit with all caresses, warlord is the troupe master here witht he Starmist relic
two 8 man troupes with 3 embraces and 4 kisses, one master with a caress the other with storied sword/power sword
Lastly, I'm still trying a skyweaver unit with a few farseers (3-4). Not sure how well it will hold up, but it seems decent especially in nova formats.
It is really funny you mentioned that. I am building up my harlequins now for a painting project and to allie with my Eldar.
The 1850 list that Came up with is.. interesting, but mainly I was trying to run a farseer, skyweaver star.
Doing some maths... If i can get hammerhand on the skyweavers, against a 5++ WK, they will deal 4 wounds. So if I get prescience off or doom, or any other partial reroll, they can averagely down a WK on the charge, which i feel is important.
The main thing that I am negatively thinking is I only have a base 12 psychic dice. Most successful seer stars have ~20 base. So That makes me a little unsure how it will do... what do you think?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Otherwise, what I have been doing which has been fairly successful, is running a more complete Eldar list with 2 Farseers, and allying in Falchiu's Blade. Having a Seer per skyweaver squad. Gives me two hard hitting melee units. and the benefit of they already get a reroll jink save from the formation which is great with "shrouded".
After some testing, I'm not happy with the skyweavers damage output. Yes, they are a good melee unit, but nothing to write home about.
Your 4 farseers will do just fine. Hammerhand is great on the weavers, but like I said, they just don't have consistent damage output. They need too much investment into making them a strong star.
In order to do better against more threats, I'm opting for a single farseer, jetbikes, warp hunter, and an inferno wraithknight. They give me reliable tank killing power, super heavy killing, and threaten fliers. This is all backed up by a masque with 2 embrace troupes, caress troupe, and a solitaire.
Rypher wrote: After some testing, I'm not happy with the skyweavers damage output. Yes, they are a good melee unit, but nothing to write home about.
Your 4 farseers will do just fine. Hammerhand is great on the weavers, but like I said, they just don't have consistent damage output. They need too much investment into making them a strong star.
In order to do better against more threats, I'm opting for a single farseer, jetbikes, warp hunter, and an inferno wraithknight. They give me reliable tank killing power, super heavy killing, and threaten fliers. This is all backed up by a masque with 2 embrace troupes, caress troupe, and a solitaire.
How many bikes were you running in the squad? Can you expand on some of the fights that you expected better performance then what happened? Thanks
I had two lists using a 5 strong and 6 strong skyweaver unit. On the charge, they are devastating, taking down a riptide, necron warriors, TEQs, etc. The problem is that after their initial charge, they are left in the open and able to be counter charged.
With so many points invested in them, you have built your army to have them do the bulk of the lifting in terms of killing power and whatnot. Against the riptide wing + decurion necrons, I got counter charged by wraiths after killing and locking up the tides. Even with invisibility (which isn't guaranteed), I took casualties. I wound up failing hit & run, but that's anecdotal at best.
The main problem is that against things that don't care about Str5 ap2, the weavers fall flat. Hard. Yes, they will murder TEQ, riptides, etc. I would not send them after any gargantuans or iknights, as the losses from stomp will hurt too much. The second round of combat for them also just kills any hope. Going from 5/2 down to 3/3 and from 4 attacks to 3 attacks is just meh. Most of the time, they charge and kill something, then sit around for a turn. It's not like they are fleshbane and wound everything always. If they had an extra attack, it might help, but they still fall flat in terms of what they want to assault and what they actually can. So then we have to consider their shooting vs assault damage.
Their shuriken cannon damage is nice, but not spectacular. We're spoiled in the meta with scatter laser jetbikes. For comparison, a unit of 3 eldar jetbikes will shoot 12 shots at 36". A unit of 4 skyweavers will shoot 12 shots at 24". I can get 3 units of scatter bikes for the same price (+3 points) as a unit of 4 skyweavers. When you're already taking eldar allies, they shoot better than our quins.
Lastly, while they are 2 wounds with a 5++ (great!), they're only a 4+ normal save. I usually have to tank with the farseers, get shrouding, fortune, or invisibility up to even consider them living long enough, especially as a deathstar. If anything is able to get around their buffs, they fall over quite quickly. A 3+ save would make me reconsider them, as that is then much more resilient.
Overall, they are a great harassment unit. Send two of them with glaives to murder backfields, pick on over exposed units, or just be another fast unit that can overwhelm your opponent. But as a deathstar? Not really, sadly.
Going from 5/2 down to 3/3 and from 4 attacks to 3 attacks is just meh.
Great info thanks for writing that up! Just wanted to make sure here.. you were playing them as +1S from the glaives right? So they should be 6/2 and 4/3 respectively because of that plus furious charge? Maybe I am mistaken?
I have a couple games next week that hopefully I will have enough things built to try a few different combinations.
One of my lists instead is just a masque
3x Troupe + Starweaver (using 2 FA for the transports)
+
Seer Council
+
Eldar CAD
Rypher wrote: Glaives are only +1 strength when they charge. Base strength 3 + 1 for furious + 1 for glaives makes them 5/2 on a charge, 3/3 otherwise.
They're still a fun unit and gorgeous models, but again, not enough for a star. Regular seer council is better, sadly.
Oh my mistake.. I thought they were s4 base because of the bike upgrade. Interesting.. wow OK. Even that simple change would make them another animal!
Automatically Appended Next Post: So here is a question that I know has been debated for other things.
Rising crescendo. If I join an IC farseer to a troupe, that unit still has fleet, so would the seer also be able to run and charge with the rest of the unit?
I like to combine them with a multiple charge on a single unit. Having the Hit&Run allows for alot more shenanigans when you have another unit locking them in place.
Tho I tend to use hit&run mainly to add additional range to my infantry movement to capture objectives or break line of sight.
I.e. Troupe moves 6inch. Runs D6 (fleet reroll) Charge 2d6 (fleet reroll) +3d6 hit&run. The potential to move up to 42 inches max with the best rolls with infantry is amazing and leaves more then half my opponents in a state of shock lol
Automatically Appended Next Post: And that's not even mentioning the ungodly movement of the Solitaire
Rising crescendo. If I join an IC farseer to a troupe, that unit still has fleet, so would the seer also be able to run and charge with the rest of the unit?
Rising crescendo. If I join an IC farseer to a troupe, that unit still has fleet, so would the seer also be able to run and charge with the rest of the unit?
Yes.
He can join the formation but won't benefit from the special rules. As he still belongs to a different FoC not the Formation giving rising crescendo
Rising crescendo. If I join an IC farseer to a troupe, that unit still has fleet, so would the seer also be able to run and charge with the rest of the unit?
Rising crescendo. If I join an IC farseer to a troupe, that unit still has fleet, so would the seer also be able to run and charge with the rest of the unit?
Yes.
He can join the formation but won't benefit from the special rules. As he still belongs to a different FoC not the Formation giving rising crescendo
Bring it to YMDC then. Many people disagree with both of us.
Rising crescendo. If I join an IC farseer to a troupe, that unit still has fleet, so would the seer also be able to run and charge with the rest of the unit?
Yes.
He can join the formation but won't benefit from the special rules. As he still belongs to a different FoC not the Formation giving rising crescendo
Bring it to YMDC then. Many people disagree with both of us.
Agreed. Best off there but I've done alot of reading on it because I'd like to do that same thing but it's written pretty clearly in the detachment section.
I see it as: How would you justify having the farseer in a CAD leave that formation mid game and join a different formation?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Or in that sense Any IC from either formation can join the other to recieve 2 formations benefits
Opposing Viewpoint: "While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes"
Does that unit have a rule from being in a formation? So does that independent character because of "for all rules purposes". Trying to figure out which detachment he's from is like saying "for some rules purposes".
And that's the final word I'll say about it in this thread.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Or in that sense Any IC from either formation can join the other to recieve 2 formations benefits
This part is very unlikely, and definitely wouldn't be happening in the case of say a Farseer from a Warhost joined to a Masques unit. He'd lose the Warhost's benefits while being in a Masque as he's now part of that unit and not a unit of his own, like any IC that joins a unit. The IC unit stops existing temporarily.
The belonging to 1 detachment rule negates him from being counted as part of the formations FoC negating that benefit. Combined with IC "special rules" section
Automatically Appended Next Post: He may have fleet himself but not being counted in the FoC of the rising crescendo formation should negate him benefiting from it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also Masque formation is restricted to harlequin faction only
Automatically Appended Next Post: He will count as part of the unit for rules like shooting and locked in combat. I'll post it under ymdc and see the general consensus
Went up against Grey Knights. He stole and alpha struck with two libbies knowing cleansing flame. Only 1 managed to go off and amongst other fire, I lost a farseer, and a Troupe and 2 starweavers.
On my turn i struck back nearly wiped 2 termi squads, took out 1 librarian, got 1 of 2 Dreadknights locked in combat with a troupe and solataire, and blasted about half of an interceptor squad away.
Turn 2.. nothing happend on his turn as we were in combat. Solataire killed his dreadknight, and the rest of combats pretty much didnt do anything, everything hit and ran.
We called it here for time unfortunately, but it was not looking good for the GKs...
Clowns really impressed me .. they hit like a truck in CC.
Icelord wrote: How can you handle 5 flyrants with harlequins?
Seems like some tournament match ups are like auto losses.
5 knights?
5 Flyrants.. stick near objectives.. try and work cover and hope you get lucky with shurikan cannons. If you have the oppurtunity to go second.. do so.. Cause on turn 5 he has to land to grab objectives and that is when you can make your charges to win.
5 knights.. can be tough.. and depends on your list, but harli's have many haywire options and the mobility to force choices on shield placement. They also have auto glance weapons in cc which can be very nice. Most knights don't have any CC saves, I have had a solataire toss a haywire grenade, and on blitz wreck a knight straight up. (yes i realize i got lucky, but hey that is dice )
Icelord wrote: How can you handle 5 flyrants with harlequins?
Seems like some tournament match ups are like auto losses.
5 knights?
5 knights is a really good matchup for a well built harlequin list. You can swarm all over objectives, and you have several weapons that are really quite good at taking knights out (caresses, Haywire cannons, haywire 'nades)
flyrants is a serious counter. you definitely want to be hugging cover and securing objectives as hard as you can.
FYI since this was brought up earlier in this thread, the new FAQ clarified that it's possible for the Solitaire to use his caress and kiss at the same time.
mercury14 wrote: FYI since this was brought up earlier in this thread, the new FAQ clarified that it's possible for the Solitaire to use his caress and kiss at the same time.
Not only that, but he can "use" the Cegorach's Rose (to gain shred) and benefit from both the Kiss of Death attack and the caress.
Awesome buff to him. Also, an awesome buff to the Storied Sword and Rose relics in general, IMO, because (I think) you can replace either weapon with an Enigma of the Black Library. So you can take an embrace/kiss/caress and add a relic, then "use" the relic and still gain the benefit of the other weapon with your troupe master.
mercury14 wrote: FYI since this was brought up earlier in this thread, the new FAQ clarified that it's possible for the Solitaire to use his caress and kiss at the same time.
Not only that, but he can "use" the Cegorach's Rose (to gain shred) and benefit from both the Kiss of Death attack and the caress.
Awesome buff to him. Also, an awesome buff to the Storied Sword and Rose relics in general, IMO, because (I think) you can replace either weapon with an Enigma of the Black Library. So you can take an embrace/kiss/caress and add a relic, then "use" the relic and still gain the benefit of the other weapon with your troupe master.
So i am not sure that is exactly the intent of the FAQ.
Q: Do weapon special rules that say ‘a model equipped with this weapon’ or ‘this weapon’s bearer’ take effect even when not used as the attacking weapon?
A: Yes.
So in terms of the Rose. It is a harliquins kiss which that special rule states "a model equipped with blah, makes the following special attack..." we all know the rule here. But point is, it is specifically just that special rule. The weapon itself "shred" does not come into play for the caress it itself is still only with use of the rose as the cc weapon choice that phase.
1) Whenever rules for relics are concerned, the launguage "X model may TAKE an item from Enigmas of the BL". This means that you do not replace any other item with the enigma.
2) All operative rules for Harlequin unique weaponry (Kiss of Death...hug of death, bad touch of death?) are "a model equipped with this weapon" rules. In all other respects they act as normal, strength user CCWs.
3) The way the new FAQ specifies combat working, you select one weapon to be "used" in melee, then the "equipped with" effects of all weapons the model has also apply. Any WEAPON SPECIFIC effects of equipped, but not used, weapons are lost (i.e, AP value, strength modifiers).
So if a normal solitaire gets into combat, he selects either the kiss or caress to "use" and since they both act as basic CCWs he just gets the additional attack for 2 CCWs. Then he gets both the Kiss of Death and Canoodle of Death effects as they are both equipped.
In the case where he has the Rose, he'd select the Rose to "use" as it has a weapon specific effect (Shred USR). He still gets both Equipped effects, so he rolls to hit, sets aside all sixes, and rolls separately for his Kiss attack. Then he rerolls his to wound dice for shred.
If my assumptions 1, 2 and 3 are all correct, a Troupe Master can gain a similar benefit by taking the Rose or Storied sword and replacing their CCW with a standard Kiss, Caress or Embrace. I don't know if I'd ever bother upgrading a TM with either, but the option appears to be there.
Automatically Appended Next Post: EDIT: I am correct here only regarding the Kiss and Embrace. The caress DOES require it to be the "used" weapon to benefit.
So a Rose/Caress Solitaire may not be great but I feel an Embrace/Rose or Embrace/Storied troupe master could be quite nasty.
EDIT: I am correct here only regarding the Kiss and Embrace. The caress DOES require it to be the "used" weapon to benefit.
So a Rose/Caress Solitaire may not be great but I feel an Embrace/Rose or Embrace/Storied troupe master could be quite nasty.
Yep with your edit you are correct.
What makes the caress good on the solataire is amount of attacks. You have a decent chance of rolling 1+ 6s on your hit rolls, which can be very good if you challenged out a character in the squad. What the rose gives you, is amount of wounds against GEQ type squads. And wiping them out through sweeping advance.
Solataire is tricky, but he can be used as a nice scalpel to work with through the game.
Doing the math on it, I don't think the Rose actually gets you many more unsaved wounds on GEQ.
The way I'm calculating it is, with the new FAQ ruling, the Solitaire can choose to use the Caress and still gets the Kiss attack, vs having to use the Kiss to get Shred with the Rose (and losing the Caress rule).
Using Caress, with Kiss:
8 attacks on the charge.
7/6 = 1.17 immediate wounds from Caress (sixes to hit)
7*(2/3)-1.17 = 3.5 normal hits
these 3.5 normal hits cause 1.55 unsaved wounds.
The Kiss of Death attack causes 1*(2/3)*(5/6) = .55 unsaved wounds
1.55+.55+1.17 = 3.28 unsaved wounds.
Now with Cegorach's Rose
8 attacks on the charge.
7*(2/3)*(8/9)*(2/3) = 2.77 unsaved wounds
Kiss of Death causes 1*(2/3)*(35/36) = 0.65 unsaved wounds
2.77 + 0.65 =3.42
That is an expensive weapon upgrade for the opportunity to cause 0.14 more wounds than the base version. It's a bit better on the blitz, but I'd still rather use my Solitaire for what he's really good at, i.e. tarpitting and taking out hard monster targets with relatively few attacks who have a problem getting through his high WS, 3 wounds and 3++.
the_scotsman wrote: Doing the math on it, I don't think the Rose actually gets you many more unsaved wounds on GEQ.
The way I'm calculating it is, with the new FAQ ruling, the Solitaire can choose to use the Caress and still gets the Kiss attack, vs having to use the Kiss to get Shred with the Rose (and losing the Caress rule).
Using Caress, with Kiss:
8 attacks on the charge.
7/6 = 1.17 immediate wounds from Caress (sixes to hit)
7*(2/3)-1.17 = 3.5 normal hits
these 3.5 normal hits cause 1.55 unsaved wounds.
The Kiss of Death attack causes 1*(2/3)*(5/6) = .55 unsaved wounds
1.55+.55+1.17 = 3.28 unsaved wounds.
Now with Cegorach's Rose
8 attacks on the charge.
7*(2/3)*(8/9)*(2/3) = 2.77 unsaved wounds
Kiss of Death causes 1*(2/3)*(35/36) = 0.65 unsaved wounds
2.77 + 0.65 =3.42
That is an expensive weapon upgrade for the opportunity to cause 0.14 more wounds than the base version. It's a bit better on the blitz, but I'd still rather use my Solitaire for what he's really good at, i.e. tarpitting and taking out hard monster targets with relatively few attacks who have a problem getting through his high WS, 3 wounds and 3++.
Dont forget its also master crafted! I realize that doesn't help a TON but its something. Also, like most math in mathhammer, this is the average.. what the shred gives you is the certainty of wounds. Also. I should have stated that Shred also helps you when fighting MEQs and T5 models. Anything greater then T5 I personally use the caress.
But yes. against Guard, the shred gives you a higher upper bound for wound potential.. and helps out more significantly on higher toughness models.
the_scotsman wrote: Doing the math on it, I don't think the Rose actually gets you many more unsaved wounds on GEQ.
The way I'm calculating it is, with the new FAQ ruling, the Solitaire can choose to use the Caress and still gets the Kiss attack, vs having to use the Kiss to get Shred with the Rose (and losing the Caress rule).
Using Caress, with Kiss:
8 attacks on the charge.
7/6 = 1.17 immediate wounds from Caress (sixes to hit)
7*(2/3)-1.17 = 3.5 normal hits
these 3.5 normal hits cause 1.55 unsaved wounds.
The Kiss of Death attack causes 1*(2/3)*(5/6) = .55 unsaved wounds
1.55+.55+1.17 = 3.28 unsaved wounds.
Now with Cegorach's Rose
8 attacks on the charge.
7*(2/3)*(8/9)*(2/3) = 2.77 unsaved wounds
Kiss of Death causes 1*(2/3)*(35/36) = 0.65 unsaved wounds
2.77 + 0.65 =3.42
That is an expensive weapon upgrade for the opportunity to cause 0.14 more wounds than the base version. It's a bit better on the blitz, but I'd still rather use my Solitaire for what he's really good at, i.e. tarpitting and taking out hard monster targets with relatively few attacks who have a problem getting through his high WS, 3 wounds and 3++.
Dont forget its also master crafted! I realize that doesn't help a TON but its something. Also, like most math in mathhammer, this is the average.. what the shred gives you is the certainty of wounds. Also. I should have stated that Shred also helps you when fighting MEQs and T5 models. Anything greater then T5 I personally use the caress.
But yes. against Guard, the shred gives you a higher upper bound for wound potential.. and helps out more significantly on higher toughness models.
The number of targets that the Rose actually gives you a benefit in unsaved wounds as opposed to the caress is significantly low. You need to be fighting stuff with (usually) T4 or T5, and a 4+ or worse armor save for the caress' auto-wounds on a 6 to not be superior to the rose (which costs extra points, remember) out of the water.
Vs MEQs:
Caress:
7/6 = 1.17 immediate wounds from Caress (sixes to hit)
7*(2/3)-1.17 = 3.5 normal hits
these 3.5 normal hits cause 0.58 unsaved wounds.
The Kiss of Death attack causes 1*(2/3)*(5/6) = .55 unsaved wounds
.58+.55+1.17 = 2.3 unsaved wounds.
Rose:
7*(2/3)*(3/4)*(1/3) = 1.16 unsaved wounds
Kiss of Death causes 1*(2/3)*(35/36) = 0.65 unsaved wounds
1.16+0.65 = 1.82 unsaved wounds
Vs... I'm gonna call them "BEQs"? (marine biker equivalents, like thunderwolves, bikers, etc)
Caress:
7/6 = 1.17 immediate wounds from Caress (sixes to hit) (.39 if they have 3++)
7*(2/3)-1.17 = 3.5 normal hits
these 3.5 normal hits cause 0.39 unsaved wounds.
The Kiss of Death attack causes 1*(2/3)*(2/3) = .44 unsaved wounds (.15 if they have 3++)
.39+.44+1.17 = 2 unsaved wounds. (.93 unsaved wounds if they pack a 3++ save)
Rose:
7*(2/3)*(.55)*(1/3) = .85 unsaved wounds
Kiss of Death causes 1*(2/3)*(.88) = 0.58 unsaved wounds (.19 with 3++)
.85 + 0.58 = 1.43 unsaved wounds, 1.04 with 3++
Not even getting into the cases where the caress is obviously going to be superior (vs vehicles, high toughness MCs, etc), the rose only barely edges it out in certain cases, usually where you shouldn't even be employing a solitaire to do that job anyway. You can say theoretically that it's going to be better against T4 Sv- models, or T5 Sv-, but the thing is you just don't usually see those around. Even when armor saves aren't a thing, the fact is that the caress' 6 roll doesn't even need to make a to-wound roll makes it usually work far better against high T targets anyhow.
Myself, I will absolutely be running a Rose/Embrace Troupe Master in my Embrace and CCW anti-horde troupe from now on. With the HOW attacks landing on the challenge opponent, that makes that TM really, REALLY effective in challenges against characters you typically see in lightly armored horde units. With the new FAQ, I think the Rose is almost never worth the points on the Solitaire as the Caress just got that much better.
StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote: Looks like a pretty nasty list. Can't see any weaknesses in it, although I think the glaives are better on the skyweavers than the bolas
What do you think of me replacing one of the skyweaver unit with a starweaver? (I guess for the Solitaire's ride???) That way I can give the sole 2-main skyweavers their glaives?
StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote: Looks like a pretty nasty list. Can't see any weaknesses in it, although I think the glaives are better on the skyweavers than the bolas
What do you think of me replacing one of the skyweaver unit with a starweaver? (I guess for the Solitaire's ride???) That way I can give the sole 2-main skyweavers their glaives?
Could be good, but up to you in the end. However, I find the Solitaire is mobile and small enough to jump from LOS blocking terrain to LOS blocking terrain, so I don't think he should hitch a ride. Maybe put a troupe in it for a bit of added mobility?
StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote: Looks like a pretty nasty list. Can't see any weaknesses in it, although I think the glaives are better on the skyweavers than the bolas
What do you think of me replacing one of the skyweaver unit with a starweaver? (I guess for the Solitaire's ride???) That way I can give the sole 2-main skyweavers their glaives?
Could be good, but up to you in the end. However, I find the Solitaire is mobile and small enough to jump from LOS blocking terrain to LOS blocking terrain, so I don't think he should hitch a ride. Maybe put a troupe in it for a bit of added mobility?
Hmmmm... putting a troupe in there, pop the 4+ inv in turn one and run it up my opponent's gut for a turn 2 charge is appealing.
So I've been thinking about a little freakshow LD bomb unit. A WWP armor of misery archon stuck with a Cast of Players with a ML2 Mask of Secrets Shadowseer rolling telepathy.
No scatter deepstrike within 6" of whatever the most important enemy non-vehicle is, then blow it up with mind bullets. Hope to be able to put terrify on it first, then shriek.
If possible, have another Shadowseer in a Hero's Path nearby to do some phantasmansy shenanigans.
Has anyone tried something like this, and if so did it work?
Its a common combo - and one that is highly risky and can be largely useless pending the opponent.
Obviously anything in a vehicle gives not a care.
Its also highly reliant on getting enough dice to cast what you need with enough success that it cant be stopped and then rolling high enough on shriek to finish the target... Consider that you want at least 3 dice for shriek, 3 more for terrify and then 3-5 more for your other shenanigans... so at least 9 dice but ideally 11-12... so you are wanting 5-6 from the d6 roll... not reliable. Not to mention the harlequins who just shrieked a unit away are now dead elves walking with no defence and in the enemy lines.
I think its just not worth it myself without the enemy running a deathstar and even they - they will likely be denying things on 4+ as they almost universally have higher level psychers in them.
StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote: So I've been thinking about a little freakshow LD bomb unit. A WWP armor of misery archon stuck with a Cast of Players with a ML2 Mask of Secrets Shadowseer rolling telepathy.
No scatter deepstrike within 6" of whatever the most important enemy non-vehicle is, then blow it up with mind bullets. Hope to be able to put terrify on it first, then shriek.
If possible, have another Shadowseer in a Hero's Path nearby to do some phantasmansy shenanigans.
Has anyone tried something like this, and if so did it work?
Its a nice little trick and I've used the wwp to some devastating effect. It works from time to time but here's some thoughts/downsides.
Who are you facing/Friendly game or a tournament?
Do they have stubborn?(no leadership modifiers)
Are they even out in the open? Leadership tests are awesome but if they are all mounted up in vehicles or are walkers... its wasted points.
Is it worth taking Telepathy over Phantasmancy's Veil of Tears?
Would you rather have a 2+invul archon or a wwp archon?
What are the primary formations being used?
What amount of points is the army you are trying to use this for?
Taking a cast of players for this purpose negates the formation benefit. As well as brings along a purposeless Death Jester.(kind of alot of eggs in 1 basket for 1 fuction)
Personally, my set up is usually a Masque or Cegorach's Revenge with an Allied detachment.
Take 1 Troupe and give them Neuro Disruptors (hits on a 2/3, wounds on a 2, it's AP2) good vs MC's
1 Troupe with Fusion Pistols (Unbound Kabalite Trueborn squad of 10 with heavies and support weapons) good vs vehicles or forcing a Titan to choose between 2 different facings for their shields.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here's what I used at the Dakka Kon Grand Tournament. Won 2 out of 5 games placing 14th out of 25-30ish
Faced Necrons, Dark Angels, Tau, Eldar/Tau, and Krieg IG
I ran nothing but Phantasmancy Psychics and Light table Warlord Traits
I put this list together at the last moment because of a tournament slot opening up for me but it's essentially what I normally run but it is also not the best. I'm awaiting more models to try some ideas I've been having.
It's also worth noting that Running a Starmist Raiment is probably the best thing you can put on a Troupe Master when running Cegorach's Revenge or plan on maximizing your assault capability.
Solitaire 3+ invul , Troupe Master 3+invul (after running) Reroll failed invuls of a 1. AND a 2+ invul Archon.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm looking at trying out "The Serpents Brood" Formation soon. Has anyone tried this Formation out?
Another question, Has anyone tried mixing Harlequins with Corsairs? Their transports seem alot better then using DE venoms
Personally, coming from the perspective of someone who wants to field primarily Harlequins, the loss of run+charge that you get from a straight masque detatchmeant (the Harlequin CAD type formation) seems too much. You can get that by running a Cegorath's Revenge formation, but then you are paying for a whole bunch of stuff that you might not need or want.
Seemingly, anything you could do before for Halreuqins and an allied CAD you can do now. The only two upshots I see:
1) the pseudo 3rd edition consolidation from combat into combat that Soulburst can provide after destroying an enemy unit.
2) larger troops hitching lifts in Raiders
I don't know if these outweigh the tax of taking a Cegorath's Revenge formation or the loss of taking just 'plain' Harlequins in a Ynari CAD when you can get run+charge from a normal Masque detachment.
Personally, the loss of run+charge that you get from a masque seems too much. You can get that by running a Cegorath's Revenge formation, but then you are paying for a whole bunch of stuff that you might not need or want.
Seemingly, anything you could do before you can do now. The only two upshots I see: 1) the pseudo 3rd edition consolidation from combat into combat that Soulburst can provide after destroying an enemy unit. 2) larger troops hitching lifts in Raiders.
Indeed you can take Fast Attack Raiders for the Troupes, but the main take away for me is that you can organize your army without having to take the stupid Tax-Weaver heavy support. You can even take a 10pt DE Lhamaean as your "HQ" (Court of the Archon, look it up) and then go nuts with whatever else you want. You can also take a Harlequin painted WraithKnight, or really any other CWE/DE unit that you want an make them into counts as Harlies without any form of "tax" units
[...]the main take away for me is that you can organize your army without having to take the stupid Tax-Weaver heavy support.
[...]
You can also take a Harlequin painted WraithKnight, or really any other CWE/DE unit that you want an make them into counts as Harlies without any form of "tax" units
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75pt tax for a skimmer that can block lanes of fire and still shoot for army wide run+assault isn't the worst tax in the world. Anything else you can get in a masque detachment is stuff you would actually want to take: I see the tax as kinda minimal (for someone wanting to run a LOT of Quinn's)
The other stuff you mention you can get just by taking allied CADs.
Personally, I think that the new Ynnari detachment is best for a mixed type force. If going with "Full Masque+" amount of Harlies, then this might be well suited for this "+" part, as you can spend points more accurately, without virtually any tax whatsoever.
With mixed force however, this finally allows in an official and not only houseruled way, to include a fine-tuned "Harlequin wing" into Craftworld or DE army - single troupe with beefed up Troupe Master and Shadowseer, mounted in Starweaver and some Skyweavers as shock-assault troops Craftworlders lack? Not a problem anymore. And Skyweavers benefiting from Strenght from Death can be even more deadly than they already are. And the best thing is, that Troupe retained it's Troops status when ported into this detachment - finally some actually usefull Eldar CADCC Troop choice!
So while regarding full Harlequin armies there is a lot of room for debate, it is IMHO the best thing that could happen to Harlequins as a whole faction.
Giving Cegorach's Revenge Strength from Death for what is essentially a CAD tax from any of the Eldar factions seems like more than a fair trade. Getting a chance to move, move again, run, then assault really widens that threat range.
