What's the limit in the Eldar CAD / Decurion equivelent of how many Jetbikes can be taken, how many squads, and how many in each squad?

 Blacksails wrote:
I am loving the people who claim this is a reasonable and not too unbalanced change for the Eldar.

The delusion is strong.

Then again, its a great example of just how bad the power creep has become when people are honestly under the impression there are reasonable counters.

There are reasonable counters even if you choose to ignore them not all of them that have been mentioned are unreasonable. And its not delusion as you so claim its based around facts and from player experiences when facing the Eldar. Besides the different weapon loadout options they have not changed when it comes to their durability. So T4 with a 3+ Save, 1 Wound and can Jink. My Tank heavy IG army will be able to handle that quite easily thanks to front armor 14 and deploying smartly. My Tau with Missile Pod Suits backed up by Marker Lights can trade shots with them and duck behind cover or LOS blocking terrain or even the "Fish of Fury" lists will be fine as well thanks to Armor 13. Even nastier are the Riptide variants from Forgeworld, R'Varnas slaughter Jetbikes thanks to their "hits a bike sized model twice" rule and the Y'Varhas AP2 Flame Template will slaughter them as well. The point im trying to make is that this is happening, wether you guys like it or not so there is no point complaining about it especially since its not the complete picture of the entire Eldar army. Instead why not discuss ways to try and deal with this and potential counters (because they DO exist) so we can face the oncoming storm somewhat better.

 gmaleron wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
I am loving the people who claim this is a reasonable and not too unbalanced change for the Eldar.

The delusion is strong.

Then again, its a great example of just how bad the power creep has become when people are honestly under the impression there are reasonable counters.

There are reasonable counters even if you choose to ignore them not all of them that have been mentioned are unreasonable. And its not delusion as you so claim its based around facts and from player experiences when facing the Eldar. Besides the different weapon loadout options they have not changed when it comes to their durability. So T4 with a 3+ Save, 1 Wound and can Jink. My Tank heavy IG army will be able to handle that quite easily thanks to front armor 14 and deploying smartly. My Tau with Missile Pod Suits backed up by Marker Lights can trade shots with them and duck behind cover or LOS blocking terrain after they do or even "Fish of Fury" lists will be fine as well thanks to Armor 13. Even nastier are the Riptide variants from Forgeworld, R'Varnas slaughter Jetbikes thanks to their "hits a bike sized model twice" rule and the Y'Varhas AP2 Flame Template will slaughter them as well.

So you're just compeltely ignoring what I said earlier about Eldar also being able to take things to counter those? Cool.

You guys, they can't be that hard to beat. They're stupid fairy space elves, they serve as the dorks of 40k. Obviously, they should be easy enough to pound into the ground, and then the rest of us can go back to praising the Emprah.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Ferros wrote:
I agree its a unit with huge damage output but also incredibly fragile in terms of defense and Ld. Spam large blasts, flyers, or MSU of high strength (Destroyers, missile pods, etc). Either they jink and neuter themselves or risk Ld tests. Go get your your artillery on.

Good luck when Fire Dragons or D weapon wraith units take out your artillery, or their flyers take out yours...

Well I suppose if you're assuming the only one doing anything is the Eldar player and throw in an extra unit or two to counter my point, that works.

Lets pretend for a minute that they have no save, no access to jink, and T1. They have a 36" range and jsj. But one more thing that is WAY more important to their durability is that they are troops that can be included in squads of 3-10. That means you can have 12 units of 3 in 2 CAD. Even in one CAD people will probably run 6 units of 5. Yes IF you kill 3 and IF you make 7 run away that's a decent result. But people won't be including units of 10 most likely. They won't need to. If you make a couple run away, it doesn't look so rosy anymore. And can we stop acting like JBs have ld5 please?

Then I'll take MSU of Destroyers / Heavy Destroyers. I suggested a change to the assumed tactic of 5-10 jetbikes. If you change the situation, I can change my counter. That's how things work.

 gmaleron wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
I am loving the people who claim this is a reasonable and not too unbalanced change for the Eldar.

The delusion is strong.

Then again, its a great example of just how bad the power creep has become when people are honestly under the impression there are reasonable counters.

There are reasonable counters even if you choose to ignore them not all of them that have been mentioned are unreasonable. And its not delusion as you so claim its based around facts and from player experiences when facing the Eldar. Besides the different weapon loadout options they have not changed when it comes to their durability. So T4 with a 3+ Save, 1 Wound and can Jink. My Tank heavy IG army will be able to handle that quite easily thanks to front armor 14 and deploying smartly.

Yes, your AV14 tanks won't have face much threat from the Eldar, but Eldar have a glut of tools with which to remove AV14, even moreso now it would appear, while other units will be absurdly

I play tank heavy IG, I've run FW AB's, codex Mechanized armies, and IA12 assault brigades. Judging from what we've seen, unless there are radical increases in cost and Jetbikes go down to a 4+ save (I think this was already debunked?) then I don't think I could reliably beat a well built Eldar army. Could I hurt it? Sure. Could I make it take casualties? Sure. But it'll be more mobile, with more firepower, and unfortunately, more resiliency than anything I can pack into an IG army.

We'll see what the codex ultimately looks like, but unless there's been some very radical nerfs that we don't know about, I very much thing that there's going to be a huge imbalance.

We saw many of these exact same "adapt" and "wait and see" arguments when the last Eldar codex came out, and when Necrons came out, and they ultimately turned out to be about as bad as expected.

Gmaleron you are right and very very wrong. Counters exist. Counters do not exist for everyone. You are suggesting orks and bids can go jump in a lake for being poor casual peasant lists and not having something in the toolbox for everything. Besides you are living in pure fantasy land where your opponent hands you his list and you play a week later with a tailored one. Of course it can be dealt with, but not with a list that has a chance against everything. This is more people sick to death of the further killing of the fun take all comers style game. People aren't complaining about eldar right now, rather they are lementing the absolute flushing of the game down the crapper by GW that this portents.

 gmaleron wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
I am loving the people who claim this is a reasonable and not too unbalanced change for the Eldar.

The delusion is strong.

Then again, its a great example of just how bad the power creep has become when people are honestly under the impression there are reasonable counters.

There are reasonable counters even if you choose to ignore them not all of them that have been mentioned are unreasonable. And its not delusion as you so claim its based around facts and from player experiences when facing the Eldar. Besides the different weapon loadout options they have not changed when it comes to their durability. So T4 with a 3+ Save, 1 Wound and can Jink. My Tank heavy IG army will be able to handle that quite easily thanks to front armor 14 and deploying smartly. My Tau with Missile Pod Suits backed up by Marker Lights can trade shots with them and duck behind cover or LOS blocking terrain after they do or even "Fish of Fury" lists will be fine as well thanks to Armor 13. Even nastier are the Riptide variants from Forgeworld, R'Varnas slaughter Jetbikes thanks to their "hits a bike sized model twice" rule and the Y'Varhas AP2 Flame Template will slaughter them as well.

Most of the people who are complaining, are the same folks who feel that 6e wave serpents or Wraiths are unbeatable. What it comes down to is that these units -- and probably the new jetbike -- are easy to play, thus making crappy players able to overperform, and this hurts some people's sensibilities. As you say, lots of shots from a T4 3+ save and 36" range is not THAT awesome unbeatable.

Let's also put it into perspective: would you rather have 30 windriders, or 6 current-edition wave serpents? To me, the 60" range is and holo fields are more of a threat -- though the map and terrain would change that calculation, for sure.

At the end of the day, if someone takes a spammy list, they start off at a disadvantage, because before they deploy, you can pretty much guess what will do. Of course, there are bad matchups. But, if you have a decent list, and you're a good player with flexibility and ability think beyond "inch forward and shoot", you'll have a good win ratio.

If you're a bad player, don't want to get better, but want to win a disproportionate number of games relative to your skill level, then yeah, take a spammy easy to play list.

What part about the jet bikes only being a part of the Eldar army are you struggling with? Tanks are not going to become good. They currently are not good, and they certainly won't become better after jet bikes are let loose.

We're talking about Troop choices with S6 4 shot guns at BS4 on a platform that can pop out of cover and back into it in the same turn, that has a 3+ save and 4+ jink save on demand, with 36" range, the ability to turbo-boost, and available in small or large squad sizes.

At 27ppm.

I hope you at the very least think its ridiculous, incredibly poor on GW's part, and not worth the asking price for the book to get such shoddy writing. That much I hope we can agree on.

 Talys wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
I am loving the people who claim this is a reasonable and not too unbalanced change for the Eldar.

The delusion is strong.

Then again, its a great example of just how bad the power creep has become when people are honestly under the impression there are reasonable counters.

There are reasonable counters even if you choose to ignore them not all of them that have been mentioned are unreasonable. And its not delusion as you so claim its based around facts and from player experiences when facing the Eldar. Besides the different weapon loadout options they have not changed when it comes to their durability. So T4 with a 3+ Save, 1 Wound and can Jink. My Tank heavy IG army will be able to handle that quite easily thanks to front armor 14 and deploying smartly. My Tau with Missile Pod Suits backed up by Marker Lights can trade shots with them and duck behind cover or LOS blocking terrain after they do or even "Fish of Fury" lists will be fine as well thanks to Armor 13. Even nastier are the Riptide variants from Forgeworld, R'Varnas slaughter Jetbikes thanks to their "hits a bike sized model twice" rule and the Y'Varhas AP2 Flame Template will slaughter them as well.

Most of the people who are complaining, are the same folks who feel that 6e wave serpents or Wraiths are unbeatable. What it comes down to is that these units -- and probably the new jetbike -- are easy to play, thus making crappy players able to overperform, and this hurts some people's sensibilities. As you say, lots of shots from a T4 3+ save and 36" range is not THAT awesome unbeatable.

Let's also put it into perspective: would you rather have 30 windriders, or 6 current-edition wave serpents? To me, the 60" range is and holo fields are more of a threat -- though the map and terrain would change that calculation, for sure.

At the end of the day, if someone takes a spammy list, they start off at a disadvantage, because before they deploy, you can pretty much guess what will do. Of course, there are bad matchups. But, if you have a decent list, and you're a good player with flexibility and ability think beyond "inch forward and shoot", you'll have a good win ratio.

If you're a bad player, don't want to get better, but want to win a disproportionate number of games relative to your skill level, then yeah, take a spammy easy to play list.

That applies if their whole list is spammy, but Eldar players will have the points alongside the jetbike spam to field other things.

And I don't think anyone actually thinks they're literally unbeatable. But they are far, far too good for the points you're paying. It's nothing to do with 'my sensibilities being hurt because a crappy player beat me', it's the fact that the game just got even more stupidly unbalanced. Also, the counters peop,e keep suggesting are either 1. Not reliable, or 2. Not available to everyone. So... Some people will have a chance, others won't. Hardly a better situation.

When there's a 20 page thread complaining about a unit, I think it's safe to say something is wrong with the unit. Use all the 'everyone's overreacting' you want to, there's no smoke without fire.

 Orock wrote:
Gmaleron you are right and very very wrong. Counters exist. Counters do not exist for everyone. You are suggesting orks and bids can go jump in a lake for being poor casual peasant lists and not having something in the toolbox for everything. Besides you are living in pure fantasy land where your opponent hands you his list and you play a week later with a tailored one. Of course it can be dealt with, but not with a list that has a chance against everything. This is more people sick to death of the further killing of the fun take all comers style game. People aren't complaining about eldar right now, rather they are lementing the absolute flushing of the game down the crapper by GW that this portents.

The practical reality of a lot of people who show up to play at an FLGS for pickup games is that they don't have such a variety of models that you can't predict what they're going to play. Plus, if you decide to show up with a spammy, un-fun list, chances are, you won't get very many games, so that doesn't help you very much. Most of the people who have tons of models that I know don't play very many public pickup games, because by then they've formed their private play groups. And there, the last thing you want is to be called TFG.

It's like the guy who wants to play wave serpents on a terrain empty table and hug the back edge. Yay for him, too bad he'll hate the game because nobody wants to play him. I mean, what's the point?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ImAGeek wrote:

That applies if their whole list is spammy, but Eldar players will have the points alongside the jetbike spam to field other things.

And I don't think anyone actually thinks they're literally unbeatable. But they are far, far too good for the points you're paying. It's nothing to do with 'my sensibilities being hurt because a crappy player beat me', it's the fact that the game just got even more stupidly unbalanced.

When there's a 20 page thread complaining about a unit, I think it's safe to say something is wrong with the unit.

Yes, I agree: Windriders with shuriken cannons or scatter lasers look too good for 27 points. But frankly, the old ones were too good too, and the wave serpents were too good.... and all sorts of eldar stuff seems too good. I mean, Battle Focus all by itself is insanely good. It's better than any chapter tactic, and it's better than DE Power from Pain... it's even arguably better than RP. It remains to be seen, though, whether everything is STILL too good.

Oh yes, wouldn't it be funny if Battle Focus got nerfed?

 Ferros wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 Ferros wrote:
I agree its a unit with huge damage output but also incredibly fragile in terms of defense and Ld. Spam large blasts, flyers, or MSU of high strength (Destroyers, missile pods, etc). Either they jink and neuter themselves or risk Ld tests. Go get your your artillery on.

Good luck when Fire Dragons or D weapon wraith units take out your artillery, or their flyers take out yours...

Well I suppose if you're assuming the only one doing anything is the Eldar player and throw in an extra unit or two to counter my point, that works.

Lets pretend for a minute that they have no save, no access to jink, and T1. They have a 36" range and jsj. But one more thing that is WAY more important to their durability is that they are troops that can be included in squads of 3-10. That means you can have 12 units of 3 in 2 CAD. Even in one CAD people will probably run 6 units of 5. Yes IF you kill 3 and IF you make 7 run away that's a decent result. But people won't be including units of 10 most likely. They won't need to. If you make a couple run away, it doesn't look so rosy anymore. And can we stop acting like JBs have ld5 please?

Then I'll take MSU of Destroyers / Heavy Destroyers. I suggested a change to the assumed tactic of 5-10 jetbikes. If you change the situation, I can change my counter. That's how things work.

Your premise was that you'd be making them jink and force ld tests. That doesn't mean much at all to MSU 3 man bike squads. The fact that they can be taken as 3 man squads and you hadn't considered that doesn't mean we should ignore that when discussing how broken they are.

 Talys wrote:


Let's also put it into perspective: would you rather have 30 windriders, or 6 current-edition wave serpents? To me, the 60" range is and holo fields are more of a threat -- though the map and terrain would change that calculation, for sure.

I would rather face the serpents


30 windriders is 810 points. You cannot get 6 current edition WS for 810 points with the troops inside to field them.
30 windriders have 120 shots. Serpent shields ignore cover, and the serpents guns are twin linked and hit more(after the laser lock), but they dont get 20 shots each, or rather they dont get 13.3 hits each.

Poly Ranger wrote:


Your premise was that you'd be making them jink and force ld tests. That doesn't mean much at all to MSU 3 man bike squads. The fact that they can be taken as 3 man squads and you hadn't considered that doesn't mean we should ignore that when discussing how broken they are.

You can't have it both ways. If you take them as 3man squads, you won't have very many jetbikes.

I will bet dollars to donuts that everyone will want to play a Guardian Host, rather than CAD -- in the same way Decurion is so much better than CAD.

 Talys wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:


Your premise was that you'd be making them jink and force ld tests. That doesn't mean much at all to MSU 3 man bike squads. The fact that they can be taken as 3 man squads and you hadn't considered that doesn't mean we should ignore that when discussing how broken they are.

You can't have it both ways. If you take them as 3man squads, you won't have very many jetbikes.

I will bet dollars to donuts that everyone will want to play a Guardian Host, rather than CAD -- in the same way Decurion is so much better than CAD.

Do you really think that running the jetbikes as Windrider Hosts(the Guardian Battlehost variant) is going to have minimal unit sizes for the jetbikes?

Formation restrictions very rarely mandate you take a minimum unit size that is the minimum.

Talys - WS were broken, but they were beatable, we made lists with serp spam in mind. Same with knights and wraiths. We never thought they were unbeatable, just OP.

This is in an entirely different league. This is what Real Madrid are in comparison to Rotherham FC. This is above and beyond anything the previously mentioned units even hinted at. This isn't the case of 'same old, same old'.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Of course you can take lots of 3 man jetbike squads - they're troops!!!

 Exergy wrote:

 Talys wrote:


Let's also put it into perspective: would you rather have 30 windriders, or 6 current-edition wave serpents? To me, the 60" range is and holo fields are more of a threat -- though the map and terrain would change that calculation, for sure.

I would rather face the serpents


30 windriders is 810 points. You cannot get 6 current edition WS for 810 points with the troops inside to field them.
30 windriders have 120 shots. Serpent shields ignore cover, and the serpents guns are twin linked and hit more(after the laser lock), but they dont get 20 shots each, or rather they dont get 13.3 hits each.

The troops inside the serpents have value -- they aren't just tax. Serpents have 60" range, or effectively line of sight on a 6x4 table. 36", even with JSJ isn't that at all.

I'm not suggesting that either is fun to play against; just that they're going to probably be losing something really good. If they get something else really good in its place -- then all GW has accomplished is getting people to buy a bunch of new models at $0.50 per point. Yay.

 Orock wrote:
Gmaleron you are right and very very wrong. Counters exist. Counters do not exist for everyone. You are suggesting orks and bids can go jump in a lake for being poor casual peasant lists and not having something in the toolbox for everything. Besides you are living in pure fantasy land where your opponent hands you his list and you play a week later with a tailored one. Of course it can be dealt with, but not with a list that has a chance against everything. This is more people sick to death of the further killing of the fun take all comers style game. People aren't complaining about eldar right now, rather they are lementing the absolute flushing of the game down the crapper by GW that this portents.

Never did I say that "counters exist for everyone" and I am not living in a "fantasy land" as you so call it. Yes this army will be a hard counter to some other armies like they themselves will face armies that will hard counter them. All I said was that instead of going on about it with a "game over, game over man" mentality is the wrong way to go about it, especially since we do not have a clear picture of the entire Codex, we have a small snippet from a White Dwarf. Not once have I said or even insinuated that the Eldar are not going to be a tough matchup or that Jetbikes may be difficult to face. All I stated where ways that I have found to deal with Jetbike/Bike armies with my own and feel confident that they can do it against the new Eldar book as well. If they don't? Guess what Ill change up my list and tactics, its that easy. Going on about how "this is ruining the game" and getting upset over something when we don't have a complete picture on it is the wrong way to go about this and Talys is completely right. Whenever there is a new release almost people always seem to psych themselves out and fear its going to be worse then it actually is. If you want to keep lamenting this news and go on about how stupid you feel this is then that's fine, not at all trying to stop you and more power to you, but don't get mad that I don't agree with you.

 Exergy wrote:
I would rather face the serpents
30 windriders is 810 points. You cannot get 6 current edition WS for 810 points with the troops inside to field them.
30 windriders have 120 shots. Serpent shields ignore cover, and the serpents guns are twin linked and hit more(after the laser lock), but they dont get 20 shots each, or rather they dont get 13.3 hits each.

-This is assuming that they have not changed or got rid of the Serpent Shield, for all we know it doesn't exist anymore. Again we don't know all the facts so we need to stick to the ones that we already know.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Talys - WS were broken, but they were beatable, we made lists with serp spam in mind. Same with knights and wraiths. We never thought they were unbeatable, just OP.

This is in an entirely different league. This is what Real Madrid are in comparison to Rotherham FC. This is above and beyond anything the previously mentioned units even hinted at. This isn't the case of 'same old, same old'.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Of course you can take lots of 3 man jetbike squads - they're troops!!!

Well, you won't get the Guardian Host buff, though (whatever that is). For all you know, you will need to be in a Guardian Host in order to get Battle Focus (kind of like you need to be in a Maniple to get the buffs for Skitarri).

I do get it, that this seems like a pretty good buff. If you want to see how it will play out, just use existing 6e rules, and use markers for a bunch of windriders (presuming you don't own a bazillion of the old jetbikes). I haven't actually tried it yet, but may do that next week with some friends against a variety of top-tier armies to see how it plays out. I just kind of think that this, like WS and Wraiths are OP -- but not unbeatable (by a long shot). But I'm eager to see how it pans out in actual games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gmaleron wrote:
-This is assuming that they have not changed or got rid of the Serpent Shield, for all we know it doesn't exist anymore. Again we don't know all the facts so we need to stick to the ones that we already know.

I would bet that Eldar gets the MSS treatment -- the GW hand taketh from the Serpent and giveth to the winderider. Look how many spiders, tomb blades, and wraiths they sold, lol. My store has been sold out of tomb blades from release of Necron codex until just last week, and spiders were sold out for at least a month or two, hahaha. There's no way Wave Serpents remain "great" because then people wouldn't run out to buy FoTM models!

Anyway my entire point was saying that IF we ignore the fact that jetbikes are t4 3+ with jink and 36" range with jsj, and IF you cause them to fail a ld test then it won't necessarily matter because they can be taken in smaller squads.
However jetbikes DO have T4, DO have 3+, DO have jink, DO have 36" range, DO have jsj and DO have ld8. So yeh - even getting to the point where youbare arguing with me about the size of the squad means you have ignored all of that.
Also with the fact that you can take multiple detachments, even if you did take a decurion, you could supplement it with a normal cad and max out on min jet bikes, since, you know, they are troops.

 gmaleron wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
I would rather face the serpents
30 windriders is 810 points. You cannot get 6 current edition WS for 810 points with the troops inside to field them.
30 windriders have 120 shots. Serpent shields ignore cover, and the serpents guns are twin linked and hit more(after the laser lock), but they dont get 20 shots each, or rather they dont get 13.3 hits each.

-This is assuming that they have not changed or got rid of the Serpent Shield, for all we know it doesn't exist anymore. Again we don't know all the facts so we need to stick to the ones that we already know.

Talys said current edition WS, so they do have SS and we do know all the facts.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Anyway my entire point was saying that IF we ignore the fact that jetbikes are t4 3+ with jink and 36" range with jsj, and IF you cause them to fail a ld test then it won't necessarily matter because they can be taken in smaller squads.
However jetbikes DO have T4, DO have 3+, DO have jink, DO have 36" range, DO have jsj and DO have ld8. So yeh - even getting to the point where youbare arguing with me about the size of the squad means you have ignored all of that.
Also with the fact that you can take multiple detachments, even if you did take a decurion, you could supplement it with a normal cad and max out on min jet bikes, since, you know, they are troops.

Yes, being troops is a huge advantage (though, of course, the OLD jetbikes were also troops, and were not slouches either).

 Talys wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Anyway my entire point was saying that IF we ignore the fact that jetbikes are t4 3+ with jink and 36" range with jsj, and IF you cause them to fail a ld test then it won't necessarily matter because they can be taken in smaller squads.
However jetbikes DO have T4, DO have 3+, DO have jink, DO have 36" range, DO have jsj and DO have ld8. So yeh - even getting to the point where youbare arguing with me about the size of the squad means you have ignored all of that.
Also with the fact that you can take multiple detachments, even if you did take a decurion, you could supplement it with a normal cad and max out on min jet bikes, since, you know, they are troops.

Yes, being troops is a huge advantage (though, of course, the OLD jetbikes were also troops, and were not slouches either).

But that's exactly the point... They were already excellent, now they're ridiculous.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Anyway my entire point was saying that IF we ignore the fact that jetbikes are t4 3+ with jink and 36" range with jsj, and IF you cause them to fail a ld test then it won't necessarily matter because they can be taken in smaller squads.
However jetbikes DO have T4, DO have 3+, DO have jink, DO have 36" range, DO have jsj and DO have ld8. So yeh - even getting to the point where youbare arguing with me about the size of the squad means you have ignored all of that.
Also with the fact that you can take multiple detachments, even if you did take a decurion, you could supplement it with a normal cad and max out on min jet bikes, since, you know, they are troops.

Jetbikes currently already have T4, 3+ With Jink can JSJ and are LD 8 and are Troops and they are not invincible, so the only thing that is changing is a 36 inch range. Also tables are not infinitely huge and though it is a good solid range band it is not impossible to be in range of them on turn 1 especially with how the deployments are set up in the Rulebook.

Here's hoping that every tactical marine in the next codex can take a multilaser (shudders at that old blood angel's novel)

So we're in agreement then?

I still cannot get my head around this. Do they not realise that in pushing JB sales they will actually reduce sales across other armies as players get fed up and put off.

I honestly think soon, it will only be the fluff proping 40k sales up. The cron dex was a step in power creep, but it looks like the eldar will be a giant stride.

I had been pretty excited about how GW has been managing the rulesets for 40k. There was a little bit of a flub with the canoptek harvest formation, but that was forgivable. We had seen interesting and balanced codexes from Harlies, Daemonkin, and Skitarii, (and necrons, minus canoptek harvest).

And now this... honestly, its a little depressing from a casual point of view. This might be the first time I will avoid and army if I see my opponent plot down a bunch of jetbikes. My Khorne Daemonkin list usually doesnt shy away from anything, but there will just be nothing I can do against that list.

Who wants to have fun just picking up your models for a couple of hours?


To be honest, this is the first time that GW has really rocked me with a rules choice. I cant help but wonder what they were thinking. I cant help but think that there was either a rush job, or something like an "FU" to upper management (ala the orignial clown nagash sculpt).

Poly Ranger wrote:
So we're in agreement then?

I still cannot get my head around this. Do they not realise that in pushing JB sales they will actually reduce sales across other armies as players get fed up and put off.

I honestly think soon, it will only be the fluff proping 40k sales up. The cron dex was a step in power creep, but it looks like the eldar will be a giant stride.

Again the rest of the book is not out yet so you are basing this off an incomplete picture. And for every player that is put off there will be one looking forward to the challenge, potentially interested in picking up an army of them or purchasing the needed stuff to counter them.

Its been two days and you scrubs are still wetting your selves over the jet bikes.
people have given plenty reasonable counters

where are you going to hide 40+ jet bikes.
Do you know whats going to happen if they even get touched by a moderate close combat unit, and they will get charged you cant put 40 bikes in place where they aren't going to get charged their's not enough room on the table.

Currently you can get a war walker with two scatter lasers, fleet and battle focus for 70pts or two sc for 60pts
you can't turbo boost but if you do that you cant fire.

So you paying (3-8) pts more per gun but you get a much more durable unit that is also fearless.
are war walkers currently tearing up the meta?

I'm not denying that their good units but their not going to ruin the tournament scene single single-handedly.

I think you should wait till you have played a few games before you throw your toys out the pram.

 gmaleron wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Anyway my entire point was saying that IF we ignore the fact that jetbikes are t4 3+ with jink and 36" range with jsj, and IF you cause them to fail a ld test then it won't necessarily matter because they can be taken in smaller squads.
However jetbikes DO have T4, DO have 3+, DO have jink, DO have 36" range, DO have jsj and DO have ld8. So yeh - even getting to the point where youbare arguing with me about the size of the squad means you have ignored all of that.
Also with the fact that you can take multiple detachments, even if you did take a decurion, you could supplement it with a normal cad and max out on min jet bikes, since, you know, they are troops.

Jetbikes currently already have T4, 3+ With Jink can JSJ and are LD 8 and are Troops and they are not invincible, so the only thing that is changing is a 36 inch range. Also tables are not infinitely huge and though it is a good solid range band it is not impossible to be in range of them on turn 1 especially with how the deployments are set up in the Rulebook.

That 36" range is a huge difference in gameplay turns, especially on a 12" move jsj unit. They are 27pts. They are not invincible you are correct. Neither are 24pt tac marines with a 48" 4 shot st6 ap6 assault weapon. But that would be absolutely stupid wouldn't it?

Sunhero wrote:
I'm not denying that their good units but their not going to ruin the tournament scene single single-handedly.
I think you should wait till you have played a few games before you throw your toys out the pram.

 gmaleron wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Anyway my entire point was saying that IF we ignore the fact that jetbikes are t4 3+ with jink and 36" range with jsj, and IF you cause them to fail a ld test then it won't necessarily matter because they can be taken in smaller squads.
However jetbikes DO have T4, DO have 3+, DO have jink, DO have 36" range, DO have jsj and DO have ld8. So yeh - even getting to the point where youbare arguing with me about the size of the squad means you have ignored all of that.
Also with the fact that you can take multiple detachments, even if you did take a decurion, you could supplement it with a normal cad and max out on min jet bikes, since, you know, they are troops.

Jetbikes currently already have T4, 3+ With Jink can JSJ and are LD 8 and are Troops and they are not invincible, so the only thing that is changing is a 36 inch range. Also tables are not infinitely huge and though it is a good solid range band it is not impossible to be in range of them on turn 1 especially with how the deployments are set up in the Rulebook.

Also, tools like drop pods, deep strike, infiltrate. The problem with 270 points on a unit that isn't durable is that one template, and you can blow 10% of your army. Force them to jink, that very expensive squad is worth crap all the next round. Even if all 10 survive (highly unlikely), it's less than 7 hits they're likely to score with all 40 scatter lasers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gmaleron wrote:

Sunhero wrote:
Its been two days and you scrubs are still wetting your selves over the jet bikes.
people have given plenty reasonable counters
where are you going to hide 40+ jet bikes.
Do you know whats going to happen if they even get touched by a moderate close combat unit, and they will get charged you cant put 40 bikes in place where they aren't going to get charged their's not enough room on the table.
Currently you can get a war walker with two scatter lasers, fleet and battle focus for 70pts or two sc for 60pts
you can't turbo boost but if you do that you cant fire.
So you paying (3-8) pts more per gun but you get a much more durable unit that is also fearless.
are war walkers currently tearing up the meta?
I'm not denying that their good units but their not going to ruin the tournament scene single single-handedly.
I think you should wait till you have played a few games before you throw your toys out the pram.

The 40 jetbikes will be perfectly stacked in a line for my Plasma Obliterator, of course.

Sunhero wrote:
Its been two days and you scrubs are still wetting your selves over the jet bikes.
people have given plenty reasonable counters

where are you going to hide 40+ jet bikes.
Do you know whats going to happen if they even get touched by a moderate close combat unit, and they will get charged you cant put 40 bikes in place where they aren't going to get charged their's not enough room on the table.

Currently you can get a war walker with two scatter lasers, fleet and battle focus for 70pts or two sc for 60pts
you can't turbo boost but if you do that you cant fire.

So you paying (3-8) pts more per gun but you get a much more durable unit that is also fearless.
are war walkers currently tearing up the meta?

I'm not denying that their good units but their not going to ruin the tournament scene single single-handedly.

I think you should wait till you have played a few games before you throw your toys out the pram.

War Walkers aren't troops with objective secured either. People can look at rules and have a reasonably good grasp of how balanced they are without having to play games with them you know.

-War walkers can be caught in combat
-War walkers have no jink and their 5++ is less than what jink would be
-War walkers take up a valuable heavy slot and come in units of 3 max
-War walkers do not have OS
-War walkers do not have the movement of jetbikes
-Warwalkers do not satisfy a compulsory slot

Reasonable counters? Have you seen the responses to the counters though or are you just going to ignore those?
I came up with a list with 3 earthshakers, 10 wyverns a plasma oblitorator and 9 laser destoryers (as well as plenty of mutantsband spawn) a while back but i still had to admit it would probably lose.

Now how about you stop using insulting language, think rationally and do the maths. Using provocative wording does not make your point more valid.

Ffyllotek wrote:
What's the limit in the Eldar CAD / Decurion equivelent of how many Jetbikes can be taken, how many squads, and how many in each squad?

In the Warhost, are are allowed 1-3 guardian hosts.

You pick from 3 guardian different hosts, and one of them is called the Windrider Host (it's the only one with windriders), and you take 1 farseer, 1 warlock conclave, 3 units of windriders (3-10 in each), and 1 viper squadron

If you want certain other units like Storm Guardians, War Walkers, or Vaul's Wrath Support Battery, you must take one of the other Guardian Hosts (though it can be in addition to the windrider host).

I personally do not think spending 810 points in three 10-bike units is a wise way to spend points. At the very best, you can only take out 3 squads with your 3 squads in 1 turn that way, which isn't an exciting way to spend 44% of your army's points (at 1850).


@Poly Ranger -- I will bet the 40k farm that the warhost buffs will make them far more attractive than CAD. In 2 of the guardian hosts, you must take 1 war walker squad (neat way to make you buy war walkers, huh)

Yes, the new jetbikes are ridiculously overpowered for their points. Yes, certain units would be ridiculously overpowered with Strength D at their current prices. However, people are forgetting two things:

#1: The 1080 points is misleading. If the Eldar player is taking the Windrider host, they will also need a Farseer, Warlock Conclave and Vyper Squadron. Assuming the base points costs for all the units stay the same and that all infantry must have jetbikes, we have to add the following for the Windrider Host to be effective against all targets:

Farseer: 120 points
-Singing Spear
-Jetbike

Warlock Council: 100 points
2x Warlocks
-Jetbikes

Vyper Squadron: 180 points
3x Vypers
-Bright Lances

This gives us a grand total of: 1480 points

That's approaching someone's entire army. Could you cut corners with this setup to try to squeeze in more? Sure. But Eldar Anti-Tank does not come cheap, especially once you factor in the Wave Serpent Transports. You couldn't fit in even a currently costed Wraithknight with this setup.

#2: As others have stated before: We Don't Have The Codex Yet. Nobody truly knows anything for sure. First impressions may be bad, but I'm willing to bet more information will soften the blow.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Yes, the new jetbikes are ridiculously overpowered for their points. Yes, certain units would be ridiculously overpowered with Strength D at their current prices. However, people are forgetting two things:

#1: The 1080 points is misleading. If the Eldar player is taking the Windrider host, they will also need a Farseer, Warlock Conclave and Vyper Squadron. Assuming the base points costs for all the units stay the same and that all infantry must have jetbikes, we have to add the following for the Windrider Host to be effective against all targets:

Farseer: 120 points
-Singing Spear
-Jetbike

Warlock Council: 100 points
2x Warlocks
-Jetbikes

Vyper Squadron: 180 points
3x Vypers
-Bright Lances

This gives us a grand total of: 1480 points

That's approaching someone's entire army. Could you cut corners with this setup to try to squeeze in more? Sure. But Eldar Anti-Tank does not come cheap, especially once you factor in the Wave Serpent Transports. You couldn't fit in a currently costed Wraithknight with this setup.

#2: As others have stated before: We Don't Have The Codex Yet. Nobody truly knows anything for sure. First impressions may be bad, But I'm willing to bet more information will soften the blow.

You can just take them in a CAD...

 ImAGeek wrote:


You can just take them in a CAD...

You don't have to take a Decurion either TheNewBlood's point is valid: we should see what the codex says about warhosts, and everything else before getting all excited and cry that the sky has fallen

Afterwards, THEN we can complain that Warhosts have the Special Rule, "Victory of the Ancients : Roll 1D6. On a roll of 1-6, declare victory and keep your opponent's models."

Sunhero wrote:
Its been two days and you scrubs are still wetting your selves over the jet bikes.
people have given plenty reasonable counters

Almost none of which are as effective as they would seem or to which the Eldar have *very* capable hardcounters themselves that they will have no trouble fitting in alongside jetbikes.

where are you going to hide 40+ jet bikes.

You won't need to really, and they can Jink if they need cover. With 40, you can lose a whole grip and still have an absurd amount of firepower.

Do you know whats going to happen if they even get touched by a moderate close combat unit, and they will get charged you cant put 40 bikes in place where they aren't going to get charged their's not enough room on the table.

Yes, they'll fold in CC quite easily. However, between whatever firepower they throw at that CC unit in the first place, 40 S6 overwatch shots, and the best mobility in the game, CC is not going to be the greatest threat to them.

Currently you can get a war walker with two scatter lasers, fleet and battle focus for 70pts or two sc for 60pts
you can't turbo boost but if you do that you cant fire.

So you paying (3-8) pts more per gun but you get a much more durable unit that is also fearless.
are war walkers currently tearing up the meta?

AV10 open topped isn't exactly stellar in terms of resiliency. They have nowhere near the mobility and can't redeploy to the other side of the board in a single turn or JSJ move. They also can't be taken in anything near the same numbers. Out of a single CAD, you're going to get nine, equivalent to 18 Jetbikes. The Walkers also compete with units like Wraithknights for the same FoC slots. The Jetbikes can be taken as mandatory troops.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Yes, the new jetbikes are ridiculously overpowered for their points. Yes, certain units would be ridiculously overpowered with Strength D at their current prices. However, people are forgetting two things:

#1: The 1080 points is misleading. If the Eldar player is taking the Windrider host, they will also need a Farseer, Warlock Conclave and Vyper Squadron. Assuming the base points costs for all the units stay the same and that all infantry must have jetbikes, we have to add the following for the Windrider Host to be effective against all targets:

Farseer: 120 points
-Singing Spear
-Jetbike

Warlock Council: 100 points
2x Warlocks
-Jetbikes

Vyper Squadron: 180 points
3x Vypers
-Bright Lances

This gives us a grand total of: 1480 points

That's approaching someone's entire army. Could you cut corners with this setup to try to squeeze in more? Sure. But Eldar Anti-Tank does not come cheap, especially once you factor in the Wave Serpent Transports. You couldn't fit in a currently costed Wraithknight with this setup.

#2: As others have stated before: We Don't Have The Codex Yet. Nobody truly knows anything for sure. First impressions may be bad, But I'm willing to bet more information will soften the blow.

You can just take them in a CAD...

Even then we have no idea what the point costs of the other units are, for all we know they all went up in points. We do not have a complete picture of what the army is going to look like and to make assumptions or already willing to throw out your army over a small piece of the overall puzzle is silly.

 Talys wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:


You can just take them in a CAD...

You don't have to take a Decurion either TheNewBlood's point is valid: we should see what the codex says about warhosts, and everything else before getting all excited and cry that the sky has fallen

What's your point about the Decurion? Because the thing is, the Jetbikes here are already ridiculous without any formation bonuses.

While I agree we should wait, unless they get phase out it isn't going to make the bikes bad in a cad.

 Talys wrote:


Afterwards, THEN we can complain that Warhosts have the Special Rule, "Victory of the Ancients : Roll 1D6. On a roll of 1-6, declare victory and keep your opponent's models."

I like this rule!

What could we actually be missing that makes this unit worse than it looks? We have all the information about this one unit, and that's all that's needed to show they clearly haven't balanced the codex properly, if they've already taken one good unit and buffed it to stupidity. What else could we be missing that will balance this unit?

 gmaleron wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Yes, the new jetbikes are ridiculously overpowered for their points. Yes, certain units would be ridiculously overpowered with Strength D at their current prices. However, people are forgetting two things:

#1: The 1080 points is misleading. If the Eldar player is taking the Windrider host, they will also need a Farseer, Warlock Conclave and Vyper Squadron. Assuming the base points costs for all the units stay the same and that all infantry must have jetbikes, we have to add the following for the Windrider Host to be effective against all targets:

Farseer: 120 points
-Singing Spear
-Jetbike

Warlock Council: 100 points
2x Warlocks
-Jetbikes

Vyper Squadron: 180 points
3x Vypers
-Bright Lances

This gives us a grand total of: 1480 points

That's approaching someone's entire army. Could you cut corners with this setup to try to squeeze in more? Sure. But Eldar Anti-Tank does not come cheap, especially once you factor in the Wave Serpent Transports. You couldn't fit in a currently costed Wraithknight with this setup.

#2: As others have stated before: We Don't Have The Codex Yet. Nobody truly knows anything for sure. First impressions may be bad, But I'm willing to bet more information will soften the blow.

You can just take them in a CAD...

Even then we have no idea what the point costs of the other units are, for all we know they all went up in points. We do not have a complete picture of what the army is going to look like and to make assumptions or already willing to throw out your army over a small piece of the overall puzzle is silly.

Do you really need to know other point values though? This is easily a minimum for an army, and either:
A. Eldar AT would have to be ludicrously expensive.
B. They ally in easy AT since it's not expensive.
This defense you're putting up is completely unreasonable.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Even then we have no idea what the point costs of the other units are, for all we know they all went up in points. We do not have a complete picture of what the army is going to look like and to make assumptions or already willing to throw out your army over a small piece of the overall puzzle is silly. Do you really need to know other point values though? This is easily a minimum for an army, and either:
A. Eldar AT would have to be ludicrously expensive.
B. They ally in easy AT since it's not expensive.
This defense you're putting up is completely unreasonable.

And claiming that the Eldar Codex is going to be overpowered because of a single unit is a reasonable defense? Are you serious?

 gmaleron wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Even then we have no idea what the point costs of the other units are, for all we know they all went up in points. We do not have a complete picture of what the army is going to look like and to make assumptions or already willing to throw out your army over a small piece of the overall puzzle is silly. Do you really need to know other point values though? This is easily a minimum for an army, and either:
A. Eldar AT would have to be ludicrously expensive.
B. They ally in easy AT since it's not expensive.
This defense you're putting up is completely unreasonable.

And claiming that the Eldar Codex is going to be overpowered because of a single unit is a reasonable defense? Are you serious?

Why is it not? One unit can break a codex.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Even then we have no idea what the point costs of the other units are, for all we know they all went up in points. We do not have a complete picture of what the army is going to look like and to make assumptions or already willing to throw out your army over a small piece of the overall puzzle is silly. Do you really need to know other point values though? This is easily a minimum for an army, and either:
A. Eldar AT would have to be ludicrously expensive.
B. They ally in easy AT since it's not expensive.
This defense you're putting up is completely unreasonable.

And claiming that the Eldar Codex is going to be overpowered because of a single unit is a reasonable defense? Are you serious?

Why is it not? One unit can break a codex.

Sure if that unit could handle everything in the game by themselves but the Jetbikes cant which is what makes that argument much more unreasonable.

 gmaleron wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Even then we have no idea what the point costs of the other units are, for all we know they all went up in points. We do not have a complete picture of what the army is going to look like and to make assumptions or already willing to throw out your army over a small piece of the overall puzzle is silly. Do you really need to know other point values though? This is easily a minimum for an army, and either:
A. Eldar AT would have to be ludicrously expensive.
B. They ally in easy AT since it's not expensive.
This defense you're putting up is completely unreasonable.

And claiming that the Eldar Codex is going to be overpowered because of a single unit is a reasonable defense? Are you serious?

Why is it not? One unit can break a codex.

Sure if that unit could handle everything in the game but by themselves the Jetbikes cant which is what makes that argument much more unreasonable.

But again. They have the points to spare to cover other bases. If it was just the Jetbikes sure, not broken. But the Jetbikes are cheap enough that you can take other things easily.

 ImAGeek wrote:


But again. They have the points to spare to cover other bases. If it was just the Jetbikes sure, not broken. But the Jetbikes are cheap enough that you can take other things easily.

Which brings us full circle back to the point of we don't know what has changed in regards to not only points costs but special rules, abilities and even placement in the FOC. We do not have enough information to say that the Eldar are going to be OP and ruin the game.

 ImAGeek wrote:
What could we actually be missing that makes this unit worse than it looks? We have all the information about this one unit, and that's all that's needed to show they clearly haven't balanced the codex properly, if they've already taken one good unit and buffed it to stupidity. What else could we be missing that will balance this unit?

I'll give you one:

Army Special Rules -Battle Focus: Models with this special rule that are members of a Warhost can either Shoot and then Run or Run and then Shoot, in the same Shooting Phase. Must Complete....

Or how about this? What if the last two words were removed from the existing "Battle Focus" special rules, "... unless Relentless".

That would remove JSJ for any model with Heavy... like scatter lasers.

And you can just ally in cheap rapier laser destroyers if fragons turn out to be 60pts each.

Zen117 wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
What could we actually be missing that makes this unit worse than it looks? We have all the information about this one unit, and that's all that's needed to show they clearly haven't balanced the codex properly, if they've already taken one good unit and buffed it to stupidity. What else could we be missing that will balance this unit?

I'll give you one:

Army Special Rules -Battle Focus: Models with this special rule that are members of a Warhost can either Shoot and then Run or Run and then Shoot, in the same Shooting Phase. Must Complete....

Or how about this? What if the last two words were removed from the existing "Battle Focus" special rules, "... unless Relentless".

That would remove JSJ for any model with Heavy... like scatter lasers.

Hey, that's what I was saying earlier, lol.

Eldar may not be OP and ruin the game. Jetbikes are and will though.

 gmaleron wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:


But again. They have the points to spare to cover other bases. If it was just the Jetbikes sure, not broken. But the Jetbikes are cheap enough that you can take other things easily.

Which brings us full circle back to the point of we don't know what has changed in regards to not only points costs but special rules, abilities and even placement in the FOC. We do not have enough information to say that the Eldar are going to be OP and ruin the game.

Those are actually two different things. Something can be OP, without ruining the game -- which is what I'm hoping eldar jetbikes will be.

By the way, most annoying autocorrect: Eldar -> Elder.

So a 36" 4 shot st6 ap6 bs4 model with 12" move, 24" turbo boost, 4+ jink and t4 3+ wouldn't be crazy OP of it didn't have jsj?

lets face it guy's, we haven't even seen the codex yet and it's looking like eldar have gotten so much loving from gw we may get a second eye of terror.

What was that quote in white dwarf? something about 'can you save the galaxy?'

Poly Ranger wrote:
So a 36" 4 shot st6 ap6 bs4 model with 12" move, 24" turbo boost, 4+ jink and t4 3+ wouldn't be crazy OP of it didn't have jsj?

Well take into account that if it turbo boosts it cant shoot and if it jinks it snap shots so those abilities right there effect the output of the unit greatly which seems to be what has people worried the most.

 gmaleron wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
So a 36" 4 shot st6 ap6 bs4 model with 12" move, 24" turbo boost, 4+ jink and t4 3+ wouldn't be crazy OP of it didn't have jsj?

Well take into account that if it turbo boosts it cant shoot and if it jinks it snap shots so those abilities right there effect the output of the unit greatly which seems to be what has people worried the most.

This is like the old serpent defense.

It will only jink when it NEEDS to, having the option is a bonus! Same with turbo boost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It really doesn't matter what the eldar codex is like because allies exist. We DO know that effective anti tank is in other dexes. That's all you need. Oh and a cheap enough eldar HQ. Why? Because bikes are troops so there is absolutely no tax in taking them for any army. What army don't they make better?

Zen117 wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
What could we actually be missing that makes this unit worse than it looks? We have all the information about this one unit, and that's all that's needed to show they clearly haven't balanced the codex properly, if they've already taken one good unit and buffed it to stupidity. What else could we be missing that will balance this unit?

I'll give you one:

Army Special Rules -Battle Focus: Models with this special rule that are members of a Warhost can either Shoot and then Run or Run and then Shoot, in the same Shooting Phase. Must Complete....

Or how about this? What if the last two words were removed from the existing "Battle Focus" special rules, "... unless Relentless".

That would remove JSJ for any model with Heavy... like scatter lasers.

Jetbikes would still have JSJ in the assault phase as they gain it from the core rulebook don't they?

Makumba wrote:
2 out of 4 people I play the most use eldar. Both of them use bikers. It may not be much different on the lose front for me, as I was losing to their armies, before. But at least I get to shot at stuff. Now they will just out range most of my stuff. In fact the games are probably going to be the same as against GK. Two or three turns of grabing objectives coupled with an alfa strike that kills 50% of my army.

Dude, I'm going to get murdered, my DREADKNIGHT is afraid of this gak.

Zen117 wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
What could we actually be missing that makes this unit worse than it looks? We have all the information about this one unit, and that's all that's needed to show they clearly haven't balanced the codex properly, if they've already taken one good unit and buffed it to stupidity. What else could we be missing that will balance this unit?

I'll give you one:

Army Special Rules -Battle Focus: Models with this special rule that are members of a Warhost can either Shoot and then Run or Run and then Shoot, in the same Shooting Phase. Must Complete....

Or how about this? What if the last two words were removed from the existing "Battle Focus" special rules, "... unless Relentless".

That would remove JSJ for any model with Heavy... like scatter lasers.

Have jetbikes ever even had Battle Focus?

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:

Zen117 wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
What could we actually be missing that makes this unit worse than it looks? We have all the information about this one unit, and that's all that's needed to show they clearly haven't balanced the codex properly, if they've already taken one good unit and buffed it to stupidity. What else could we be missing that will balance this unit?

I'll give you one:

Army Special Rules -Battle Focus: Models with this special rule that are members of a Warhost can either Shoot and then Run or Run and then Shoot, in the same Shooting Phase. Must Complete....

Or how about this? What if the last two words were removed from the existing "Battle Focus" special rules, "... unless Relentless".

That would remove JSJ for any model with Heavy... like scatter lasers.

Have jetbikes ever even had Battle Focus?

Of course. How do you think they have jump shoot jump right now?

Also: If they didn't have battle focus and relentless, they could not JSJ scatter lasers now.

@Makumba - the range is exactly the same buddy. The only difference is, they can upgrade any number of units, where as before only 1 of 3 could get scatter lasers. Keep in mind, they lose laser lock, and getting a scatter laser costs 10 points and they give up bladestorm.

They couldn't take scatterlasers at all before. Also, bladestorm has never kept anyone from ever taking a Scatterlaser over a Shuriken cannon. The extra shot and additional range usually matter a whole lot more.

 Talys wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:

Zen117 wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
What could we actually be missing that makes this unit worse than it looks? We have all the information about this one unit, and that's all that's needed to show they clearly haven't balanced the codex properly, if they've already taken one good unit and buffed it to stupidity. What else could we be missing that will balance this unit?

I'll give you one:

Army Special Rules -Battle Focus: Models with this special rule that are members of a Warhost can either Shoot and then Run or Run and then Shoot, in the same Shooting Phase. Must Complete....

Or how about this? What if the last two words were removed from the existing "Battle Focus" special rules, "... unless Relentless".

That would remove JSJ for any model with Heavy... like scatter lasers.

Have jetbikes ever even had Battle Focus?

Of course. How do you think they have jump shoot jump right now?

Because they are Eldar Jetbikes which comes with it from Rulebook entry. Battle Focus lets you run+shoot Jetbikes don't run. It is a pointless rule on them.

 Talys wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:

Have jetbikes ever even had Battle Focus?

Of course. How do you think they have jump shoot jump right now?

Also: If they didn't have battle focus and relentless, they could not JSJ scatter lasers now.

@Makumba - the range is exactly the same buddy. The only difference is, they can upgrade any number of units, where as before only 1 of 3 could get scatter lasers. Keep in mind, they lose laser lock, and getting a scatter laser costs 10 points and they give up bladestorm.

They have JSJ through the rules for Eldar and Dark Eldar Jetbikes in the core rulebook. Windrider Jetbikes have Battle Focus but gain no benefit from it because jetbikes can't make run moves and models that can't run gain no benefit from Battle Focus.

edit: Yeah like Eldarain said.

 Quickjager wrote:

Makumba wrote:
2 out of 4 people I play the most use eldar. Both of them use bikers. It may not be much different on the lose front for me, as I was losing to their armies, before. But at least I get to shot at stuff. Now they will just out range most of my stuff. In fact the games are probably going to be the same as against GK. Two or three turns of grabing objectives coupled with an alfa strike that kills 50% of my army.

Dude, I'm going to get murdered, my DREADKNIGHT is afraid of this gak.

Your Dreadknight is boned.

" Instead why not discuss ways to try and deal with this and potential counters (because they DO exist) so we can face the oncoming storm somewhat better. "

Because there are non-terrible games I can go play.

Also, the loss of laser lock would have had no effect on Jetbikes anyways.

Laser lock removal was because of WK gaining ranged D weapons. Does anyone really want to see twin linked ranged D attacks? I'm a WAACtastic cheese spamming eldar player and even I think that would be broken.

 Toofast wrote:
Laser lock removal was because of WK gaining ranged D weapons. Does anyone really want to see twin linked ranged D attacks? I'm a WAACtastic cheese spamming eldar player and even I think that would be broken.

Well...there's always the Scorpion

 gmaleron wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Even then we have no idea what the point costs of the other units are, for all we know they all went up in points. We do not have a complete picture of what the army is going to look like and to make assumptions or already willing to throw out your army over a small piece of the overall puzzle is silly. Do you really need to know other point values though? This is easily a minimum for an army, and either:
A. Eldar AT would have to be ludicrously expensive.
B. They ally in easy AT since it's not expensive.
This defense you're putting up is completely unreasonable.

And claiming that the Eldar Codex is going to be overpowered because of a single unit is a reasonable defense? Are you serious?

Why is it not? One unit can break a codex.

Sure if that unit could handle everything in the game by themselves but the Jetbikes cant which is what makes that argument much more unreasonable.

So because they can only handle eighty percent if the things they aren't?

 Orock wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Even then we have no idea what the point costs of the other units are, for all we know they all went up in points. We do not have a complete picture of what the army is going to look like and to make assumptions or already willing to throw out your army over a small piece of the overall puzzle is silly. Do you really need to know other point values though? This is easily a minimum for an army, and either:
A. Eldar AT would have to be ludicrously expensive.
B. They ally in easy AT since it's not expensive.
This defense you're putting up is completely unreasonable.

And claiming that the Eldar Codex is going to be overpowered because of a single unit is a reasonable defense? Are you serious?

Why is it not? One unit can break a codex.

Sure if that unit could handle everything in the game by themselves but the Jetbikes cant which is what makes that argument much more unreasonable.

So because they can only handle eighty percent if the things they aren't?

Bikes can handle everything exept heavy armour. Literally everything. Swarms to elite infantry, light vehicles to flyers. None of these an stand up to the amount of cheap str 6 shots coming their way.

The fact they can fill up a compulsory troop choice makes matters worse.

Add fire dragons, wraithguard or a wraithknight and you are good to go.

So I agree with ImAGeek, one unit can unbalance a codex, especially if it is a compulsory choice with no additional costs or requirements that is horribly fast, with a long range and fires a bucket worth of dice per turn that can deal with almost all of an opposing army.

@Makumba & Eldarain -- Of course, you're right. I've been posting on this silly topic (and the one in News) so long that my brain is scrambled. I am getting rules confused. Also, I actually haven't played my Eldar since 5e -- mostly because of a lack of new models.

Wayyyy back, when this topic first started (a whole TWO days ago?)... I was saying that because the Windrider has such great mobility, I think the Shuriken Cannon is a smarter weapon than the Scatter Laser, but perhaps that's because of the units in our meta. You give up 12" and 1 shot, gain AP5 (instead of 6) and bladestorm.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Toofast wrote:
Laser lock removal was because of WK gaining ranged D weapons. Does anyone really want to see twin linked ranged D attacks? I'm a WAACtastic cheese spamming eldar player and even I think that would be broken.

Well...there's always the Scorpion

The scorpion is 650 points without any upgrades, you'll probably be able to take 2 WK (maybe 1.5) for that which are just as killy at range, better in close combat, more maneuverable, tougher to take down and can fire at more targets.

Has anyone considered the physical cost of buying so many jet bikes?

Buying 40 bikes from new is ridiculous in terms of monetary costs. Buying second hand will be cheaper but still costly as the second hand price will go up with the demand. And you have to buy the weapons to get them up to scratch which again will increase in price due to demand.

Here in Australia - I don't think anyone but the most WAAC (and loaded!) dedicated player would invest that much cash in this army. Adding warlocks makes it even crazier!

Personally, I am not expecting more than 10-15 of these bikes in any but the most crazy force.

 Massaen wrote:
Has anyone considered the physical cost of buying so many jet bikes?

Buying 40 bikes from new is ridiculous in terms of monetary costs. Buying second hand will be cheaper but still costly as the second hand price will go up with the demand. And you have to buy the weapons to get them up to scratch which again will increase in price due to demand.

Here in Australia - I don't think anyone but the most WAAC (and loaded!) dedicated player would invest that much cash in this army. Adding warlocks makes it even crazier!

Personally, I am not expecting more than 10-15 of these bikes in any but the most crazy force.

Australia is a special case

Granted, not cheap, but there are people who do such things all the time.

You needn't even go for 40. Hell, even just 10 bikes are putting out more raw long range firepower than my Imperial Guard army

How much more expensive is a jetbike army?

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Massaen wrote:
Has anyone considered the physical cost of buying so many jet bikes?

Buying 40 bikes from new is ridiculous in terms of monetary costs. Buying second hand will be cheaper but still costly as the second hand price will go up with the demand. And you have to buy the weapons to get them up to scratch which again will increase in price due to demand.

Here in Australia - I don't think anyone but the most WAAC (and loaded!) dedicated player would invest that much cash in this army. Adding warlocks makes it even crazier!

Personally, I am not expecting more than 10-15 of these bikes in any but the most crazy force.

Australia is a special case

Granted, not cheap, but there are people who do such things all the time.

You needn't even go for 40. Hell, even just 10 bikes are putting out more raw long range firepower than my Imperial Guard army

In hindsight, I am guilty of dropping cash on models I want to use (see the 3 dune crawlers, 6 iron striders and so on coming to me now!)

I still think the physical cost and time to build the max bike CAD will limit how often we see it - you are more likely to see 3 knights than 40 bikes IMO.

40 bikes (new) will be $850 or so here in Australia - add 4 warlocks adds another $200+! that's only just over 1200 points as well - this army would easily break $1500 retail I would expect here in Aus.

 Accolade wrote:
How much more expensive is a jetbike army?

Exactly as expensive as Games Workshop wants it to be. Or to be more on point: $410.00 MSRP for thirty of them.

 Massaen wrote:
Has anyone considered the physical cost of buying so many jet bikes?

Buying 40 bikes from new is ridiculous in terms of monetary costs. Buying second hand will be cheaper but still costly as the second hand price will go up with the demand. And you have to buy the weapons to get them up to scratch which again will increase in price due to demand.

Here in Australia - I don't think anyone but the most WAAC (and loaded!) dedicated player would invest that much cash in this army. Adding warlocks makes it even crazier!

Personally, I am not expecting more than 10-15 of these bikes in any but the most crazy force.

That didn't stop 120 metal hormagaunt guy in 2nd ed.

Take AV 13/14 or AV12 w/ save vehicles of your choice. Preferably one is HQ or transport for HQ.

Bubble wrap with your best toughness/save-per-point units.

Voila.

People keep running these scenarios with 1k points of JB that are nearly 1,500 with compulsory units. They want to do that, then you have to kill all of one or two other units and you can clean up the rest of the game with heavy firepower.

I think there is a not only a lot of fear mongering, and still curious to see if there is a caveat. I wouldn't put it past a company to put out something like this to intentionally stir the pot and perhaps get some early sales before the rest of the picture is clear.

Even if you're from "GW JUST WANTS $$$ LAWL" standpoint, if the only things selling are Jetbikes and the compulsory, you're taking A LOT of losses on everything else, so that makes no sense.

Yes you might have to tailor some, and that's unpleasant and hurts builds (which is annoying and I agree, stupid) but unstoppable? Pffffft.

Really, give me an army and I can suggest a counter.

 Ferros wrote:
Take AV 13/14 or AV12 w/ save vehicles of your choice. Preferably one is HQ or transport for HQ.

Bubble wrap with your best toughness/save-per-point units.

Voila.

People keep running these scenarios with 1k points of JB that are nearly 1,500 with compulsory units. They want to do that, then you have to kill all of one or two other units and you can clean up the rest of the game with heavy firepower.

I think there is a not only a lot of fear mongering, and still curious to see if there is a caveat. I wouldn't put it past a company to put out something like this to intentionally stir the pot and perhaps get some early sales before the rest of the picture is clear.

Even if you're from "GW JUST WANTS $$$ LAWL" standpoint, if the only things selling are Jetbikes and the compulsory, you're taking A LOT of losses on everything else, so that makes no sense.

Yes you might have to tailor some, and that's unpleasant and hurts builds (which is annoying and I agree, stupid) but unstoppable? Pffffft.

Really, give me an army and I can suggest a counter.

I like this guy. Maybe you can convince my friends that Necrons aren't as bad as they all think.

 Ferros wrote:
Take AV 13/14 or AV12 w/ save vehicles of your choice. Preferably one is HQ or transport for HQ.

Bubble wrap with your best toughness/save-per-point units.

Voila.

People keep running these scenarios with 1k points of JB that are nearly 1,500 with compulsory units. They want to do that, then you have to kill all of one or two other units and you can clean up the rest of the game with heavy firepower.

I think there is a not only a lot of fear mongering, and still curious to see if there is a caveat. I wouldn't put it past a company to put out something like this to intentionally stir the pot and perhaps get some early sales before the rest of the picture is clear.

Even if you're from "GW JUST WANTS $$$ LAWL" standpoint, if the only things selling are Jetbikes and the compulsory, you're taking A LOT of losses on everything else, so that makes no sense.

Yes you might have to tailor some, and that's unpleasant and hurts builds (which is annoying and I agree, stupid) but unstoppable? Pffffft.

Really, give me an army and I can suggest a counter.

BA. BA can't even touch the current codex. Not with a 20-foot pole.

First of all, the only thing compulsory is 1 HQ which unlocks up to 60 jetbikes. I personally think the magic number is 30 jetbikes. I don't know of an eldar player that doesn't already own some bikes and scatter lasers can be purchased on ebay. The average eldar player will buy probably 20 jetbikes, and maybe a farseer and a couple warlocks on bikes if they haven't already converted them. People are acting like a jetbike army will cost twice as much money as any other eldar build. In reality, it might be $200 more to build jetbike spam from the ground up than any other competitive eldar build. They're insanely quick and easy to build/paint also. Model cost and build time is not going to stop anyone from having a 30 jetbike army painted and ready to go within a month or two of the codex being released.

120 shots is not substantially weaker than 160 shots. It's hard to deal with 50-60 right now.

Yeah, jet seer is what? 115? Add 30-40 jetbikes, a wk and some fire dragons in WSs. Profit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I know at least two guys around here with 40 jetbikes already. They're good to go.

Martel732 wrote:

 Ferros wrote:
Take AV 13/14 or AV12 w/ save vehicles of your choice. Preferably one is HQ or transport for HQ.

Bubble wrap with your best toughness/save-per-point units.

Voila.

People keep running these scenarios with 1k points of JB that are nearly 1,500 with compulsory units. They want to do that, then you have to kill all of one or two other units and you can clean up the rest of the game with heavy firepower.

I think there is a not only a lot of fear mongering, and still curious to see if there is a caveat. I wouldn't put it past a company to put out something like this to intentionally stir the pot and perhaps get some early sales before the rest of the picture is clear.

Even if you're from "GW JUST WANTS $$$ LAWL" standpoint, if the only things selling are Jetbikes and the compulsory, you're taking A LOT of losses on everything else, so that makes no sense.

Yes you might have to tailor some, and that's unpleasant and hurts builds (which is annoying and I agree, stupid) but unstoppable? Pffffft.

Really, give me an army and I can suggest a counter.

BA. BA can't even touch the current codex. Not with a 20-foot pole.

Martel, I agree with a lot of your posts, but your bashing on BA is not one of them. BA are a decent dex with good formations and I've had plently of success with them vs my meta. Get off the whine ban wagon. (Local meta being everything but eldar) with pretty decent lists all around.

 Ferros wrote:
Take AV 13/14 or AV12 w/ save vehicles of your choice. Preferably one is HQ or transport for HQ.

Bubble wrap with your best toughness/save-per-point units.

Voila.

People keep running these scenarios with 1k points of JB that are nearly 1,500 with compulsory units. They want to do that, then you have to kill all of one or two other units and you can clean up the rest of the game with heavy firepower.

I think there is a not only a lot of fear mongering, and still curious to see if there is a caveat. I wouldn't put it past a company to put out something like this to intentionally stir the pot and perhaps get some early sales before the rest of the picture is clear.

Even if you're from "GW JUST WANTS $$$ LAWL" standpoint, if the only things selling are Jetbikes and the compulsory, you're taking A LOT of losses on everything else, so that makes no sense.

Yes you might have to tailor some, and that's unpleasant and hurts builds (which is annoying and I agree, stupid) but unstoppable? Pffffft.

Really, give me an army and I can suggest a counter.

It's not 1,500pts with 'compulsory units' because all you need is a HQ. We don't even know the bonuses for the formations yet, they might get even more bonkers with them, but atm you don't even need to run them in formation.

 raiden wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Ferros wrote:
Take AV 13/14 or AV12 w/ save vehicles of your choice. Preferably one is HQ or transport for HQ.

Bubble wrap with your best toughness/save-per-point units.

Voila.

People keep running these scenarios with 1k points of JB that are nearly 1,500 with compulsory units. They want to do that, then you have to kill all of one or two other units and you can clean up the rest of the game with heavy firepower.

I think there is a not only a lot of fear mongering, and still curious to see if there is a caveat. I wouldn't put it past a company to put out something like this to intentionally stir the pot and perhaps get some early sales before the rest of the picture is clear.

Even if you're from "GW JUST WANTS $$$ LAWL" standpoint, if the only things selling are Jetbikes and the compulsory, you're taking A LOT of losses on everything else, so that makes no sense.

Yes you might have to tailor some, and that's unpleasant and hurts builds (which is annoying and I agree, stupid) but unstoppable? Pffffft.

Really, give me an army and I can suggest a counter.

BA. BA can't even touch the current codex. Not with a 20-foot pole.

Martel, I agree with a lot of your posts, but your bashing on BA is not one of them. BA are a decent dex with good formations and I've had plently of success with them vs my meta. Get off the whine ban wagon. (Local meta being everything but eldar) with pretty decent lists all around.

Let's just keep this to a challenge for the other poster, okay? We can make another thread about why I think the BA codex is actually quite poor, and why I think the formations fall very short of making it even an average codex.

Here's an idea for a counter: Drop pods and Flyers. I'll be using Blood Angels for this, but regular marines can do much the same. Pardon my ignorance, as I'm not fully versed in the fine details of either.

Step 1: Aim for null deployment. Everything that isn't in a pod is inside a Stormraven. Your can't be alpha-striked if you have nothing on the board!
If this isn't possible, hide some scouts with camo cloaks in area terrain or ruins. GTG for a 2+ cover save.

Step 2: Drop in, using the half-rounded-up trick to get as many pods as close as possible.
Pods should contain: (Wave 1)
Dreadnoughts with assault cannons and flamers. Alternatively, a Fragioso or Shooty DC dread. AV12 is considerably harder to hurt with S6.
Cheap Librarian rolling on Telepathy. Psychic Shriek the jetbikes to death before you get wiped out
Honor Guard/Sternguard or Command Squad with plasma. These go with the Librarian.

(Wave 2)
Tac squads with melta and plasma. Alternatively, melta and heavy flamer. These guys go on the objectives the jetbikes took.

Step 3: Stormraven comes in blasting. Use POTMS to force as many jinks as possible on the remaining jetbikes.
Dump out the contents: Assault marines+Librarian or Chaplain/Dreadnought and more Sternguard. Alternatively, Death Company.

Step 4: ???

Step 5: Profit!

(I couldn't resist)

If mass bike armies become the hot shiz, wouldn't that be a terrible army to bring to a tourney. The risk of a mirror matchup that would table all the bikes on the opposing side on turn 1 would be too great. The game would be a dice roll of who goes first.

I think that, realistically, the 30 bikes at 1500 to 1850 points range is pretty reasonable. Maybe fiddled up or down as the codex unfolds and we find out how much TROOPS with a S6 gun are actually needed so that you don't go overboard and limit the rest of your force's ability to deal with... AV 13+ and T 6+ with 2+ saves.

Cause that's pretty much all they aren't good at dealing with.

Maybe some Distort Flamer Wraiths to deal with opposing Bikes that could keep up with your Bikes. Maybe some dedicated AT to deal with that High AV. Something Plasmagun-like that would let you stack wounds on the toughest of MC's. And an HQ, to tie it all together.

810 pts for 30 Bikes. Add to this another 3 units to deal with those issues, and they probably overlap some [Fire Dragons are still pretty good at killing MC, for example.] So another 200 points per unit, plus 100 for an HQ sets you at just over 1500.

Maybe 5 units of 4 will work? That trims things down considerably, freeing up 270 points, which should be enough to field another "fix" unit for whatever the bikes can't handle. I'm guessing that 1/3 to 1/2 of your points will go towards EJB w/ ScLa. The rest fills in the very few gaps, to ensure you don't get gibbled by a Land Raider or something.

Serving your BA list up piecemeal to these things will result in catastrophe. None of the elements you listed have enough dakka to make the jetbikes sweat.

They have enough shots to almost completely destroy each wave as they come in.

How would all those bikes do against a centurion star with draigo and invisibility. I imagine the cent-star drops in the center of the board. Wipe out a squad of bikes and the split fire dude wrecks another.Then receive some snap shot hits that are take on the 2+ armor and look out sir around the unit. Repeat again the next turn. WK can't be the answer as they kill that too.

 Bonachinonin wrote:
How would all those bikes do against a centurion star with draigo and invisibility. I imagine the cent-star drops in the center of the board. Wipe out a squad of bikes and the split fire dude wrecks another.Then receive some snap shot hits that are take on the 2+ armor and look out sir around the unit. Repeat again the next turn. WK can't be the answer as they kill that too.

160 shots. 160/6 hit. 800/36 wound. 800/216 fails. So 3-4 wounds. Assuming no other shooting, rerolls, etc.

Or to put it more simply each live bike does 4/6 hits 20/36 wounds 20/216 fails. Each squad you don't kill puta a wound out.

Invis does suck. Unfortunately, the cent star can only kill 2 units max a turn and with draigo and invis get pretty spendy. If probably kill everything else first.

BA list at 1850 I would run vs eldar-

Baal strike force
Option 1- (my preferred)
HQ- 162
Sang priest w/ bolt pistol + bike-81
Sang priest w/ bolt pistol + bike-81
Troops-390
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Fast attack-561
7 bikes w/ 2 grav guns, combi grave-187
7 bikes w/ 2 grav guns, combi grave-187
7 bikes w/ 2 grav guns, combi grave-187
Elites-330
Fragnaught in pod w/ heavy flamer- 165
Fragnaught in pod w/ heavy flamer- 165
Heavy support-390
Dev squad w/ missile launchers- 130
Dev squad w/ missile launchers- 130
Dev squad w/ missile launchers- 130

20pts left over.

List 2-
HQs-
ML2 lib w/ Gallans staff (goes with command squad) on bike-120
ML1 lib-65 (goes with random tac unit)
Troops-390
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130

FA-345
ASM w/ 2 melta guns, combi-melta- 115 in pod
ASM w/ 2 melta guns, combi-melta- 115 in pod
ASM w/ 2 melta guns, combi-melta- 115 in pod

Elites-495
Command squad w/ jump packs-125
Fragnaught in pod w/ heavy flamer- 165
Fragnaught in pod w/ heavy flamer- 165
Fragnaught in pod w/ heavy flamer- 165

Heavy support-315
Predator w/ overcharged engines and heavy bolter sponsons- 105
Predator w/ overcharged engines and heavy bolter sponsons- 105
Predator w/ overcharged engines and heavy bolter sponsons- 105

Drop pod lists will be lucky to survive long enough for the second wave to come in. Even if you go first, you can't take out enough eldar to keep from being wiped. To those suggesting dreads, no tournament players (at least good ones) take dreads for a reason. 1 squad of jetbikes will glance one of those dreads to death in a turn. If you can't glance them with 810 points of bikes, I'm sure the 700 points of anti armor in the list will finish them off. Dreads aren't suddenly a good counter to the most broken troops in the history of 40k. They actually aren't a good counter to anything or you would see them in more than casual games.

Funny enough I rafher like my emperors children chances.

MOS Lord on bike with burning brand.

Four units of 10 noise marines with two blastmasters, icon, rhino.

Five MOS bikers with two melta guns, icon.
Two helldrakes

Two maulerfiends
One unit of 6 mos havoks wirh reaper autocannons.

Its a lot of ap 3 flamer templates and ignores cover shooting. Also the assault elements will have the speed to keep up. Also everything will get two saves in the form of armor save and fnp or Inv and iwnd. Now I personally think people are jumping tbey gun on how much sD weapons will show up, but if the fear becomes reality then its not going to be fun no matter what you bring. Even IKs.

 Toofast wrote:
Drop pod lists will be lucky to survive long enough for the second wave to come in. Even if you go first, you can't take out enough eldar to keep from being wiped. To those suggesting dreads, no tournament players (at least good ones) take dreads for a reason. 1 squad of jetbikes will glance one of those dreads to death in a turn. If you can't glance them with 810 points of bikes, I'm sure the 700 points of anti armor in the list will finish them off. Dreads aren't suddenly a good counter to the most broken troops in the history of 40k. They actually aren't a good counter to anything or you would see them in more than casual games.

fragcannons will hurt bikes. Alot.

2 templates at str6 rending. + a heavy flamer Str5 ap4. (coming at you twice)

the melta will take care of most AT, or, if its a wraith or sort, hurt it, The preds will be in range easily, pumping out a total of 6 str7 ap4 shots, and at worst, 9 str 5 ap4 shots not snap firing, if you can move 6" and shoot that jumps to 18 shots not snap firing.

The dreads don't have to live long, if they do it's icing. Or, let your infantry come in first, then drop the frags.

(Fragnaughts are extremely good for the points in pods)

1p80 points of Orkz 0uts oit 309+ shots at str4 I don't get it.

Bring on jet bike meta, better than AV meta

 Toofast wrote:
Drop pod lists will be lucky to survive long enough for the second wave to come in. Even if you go first, you can't take out enough eldar to keep from being wiped. To those suggesting dreads, no tournament players (at least good ones) take dreads for a reason. 1 squad of jetbikes will glance one of those dreads to death in a turn. If you can't glance them with 810 points of bikes, I'm sure the 700 points of anti armor in the list will finish them off. Dreads aren't suddenly a good counter to the most broken troops in the history of 40k. They actually aren't a good counter to anything or you would see them in more than casual games.

I think "drop pod lists" suck if you mean, lists that use all drop pods. However, a 6x4 table isn't that big, and you have to park your 30-40 jetbikes somewhere -- since it's about half your battle force, say you have half to 2/3 of your deployment zone to spread them out. If you have SOME drop pods, a few template/bast will earn you back more than parity in points.

Since someone brought up BA -- A BA assault squad with a drop pod is only 85 points. Pick your poison and get 3 special weapons for 20-45 points (ranging from flamer to plasma). You have two choices: spend up to 130 points and send 1 drop pod, 5 marines, and 3 templates -- I guarantee you they will jink with S7AP2 templates, and figure that you'll kill at least some of them, and leave them with snapshots only the next turn. Or, you can spend double that and try to clear enough of them out to make it worth your while. Also, the ASM and drop pod present 2 separate targets.

You can also upgrade the drop pod with 15 points to a deathwind launcher, which is nothing exciting, but might be enough to convince the Eldar player to blow a turn for a unit to kill your drop pod.

I'm not trying to figure out some cure-all; I'm just saying that 2-3 drop pods landing near 30 jetbikes bunched up is going to be a legit threat, and it won't cost you a ton in points.

I think the far more effective use of bike squads is smaller units, not spammed, some squads with base weapons (because hey, un-upgraded jetbikes still rock at 17 pts a piece), some with scatter lasers, and some with shuriken cannons. Use them smartly, where it makes sense, and it will make more of an impact than its cost.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Rismonite wrote:
1p80 points of Orkz 0uts oit 309+ shots at str4 I don't get it.

Bring on jet bike meta, better than AV meta

I was trying to say this, I think, either here or the news thread -- gimme bike spam over serpent spam any day! (or until I play it and am proven wrong hahaha)

 Jayden63 wrote:
Funny enough I rafher like my emperors children chances.

MOS Lord on bike with burning brand.

Four units of 10 noise marines with two blastmasters, icon, rhino.

Five MOS bikers with two melta guns, icon.
Two helldrakes

Two maulerfiends
One unit of 6 mos havoks wirh reaper autocannons.

Its a lot of ap 3 flamer templates and ignores cover shooting. Also the assault elements will have the speed to keep up. Also everything will get two saves in the form of armor save and fnp or Inv and iwnd. Now I personally think people are jumping tbey gun on how much sD weapons will show up, but if the fear becomes reality then its not going to be fun no matter what you bring. Even IKs.

I have to ask what the point of the MoS is on the Havocs.

5 Sicarans and a Whirlwind Scorpius with Battle of Keylek and Prescience, all inside a Void Shield Generator. Invisible bikers with Smashfether to greet anyone who gets too close. Furioso Dreadnoughts with Fragcannon + Heavy Flamer in Drop Pods.

I simply cannot wait until a jetbike apologist faces 20+ of these. It. Will. Be. Hilarious!

I TOLD YOU SO! (excellent - now I just have to link this page in the future. 2 birds 1 stone).

I'm more worried about the effect on marines, since if you're tooling up specifically to kill hoards of T4 3+ save eldar jetbike units, then marines are going to have a mad time. It's OK for marines, 'cause they can field bikes as troops (for now), but Chaos? Chaos is even more boned.

We've got a rhino or nothing as a dedicated transport, and I'll tell you now, it takes 4 jetbikes with scatter lasers to kill a rhino, 5 if it's popped smoke. Another unit of 4 to cause a morale check by killing 3 guys (on top of the pinning check from being forcibly disembarked from the rhino). Granted Ld 9 is not terrible while the sarge is still alive, but it's still something that happens with annoying frequency. We have exactly 3 units that can't be brutally and mercilessly annihilated by Str 6 mithout at least forcing the jetbikes to move. Our schizo Land Raider, a Vindicator (with AV 11 sides) and a Predator (also with AV 11 sides). How the hell do you propose a chaos army to counter a basic eldar army of 1 windrider host (1x farseer, 1x warlock, 3x jetbikes, 1x viper) and either a pair of seers & warlocks and/or as many wraith units as you can fit into your points limit?

Saying that there's a counter and listing Necron stuff is all well and good, but the other broken army of 7th shouldn't be held up as the shining example of hope and balance.

I'm an eldar player and I'm excited about the codex and changes to the WK (provided he is pointed up enough) but I'm worried about these bikes and how unbalanced they are going to be. I run war walkers at the moment with scatters which cost 210 points for 6 scatters - the bikes will cost 162 for the same so unless they change the walkers the internal balance is way off.

I think I will be taking 3-5 units of bikes but I will probably keep them as stock objective grabbers unless I am facing some form of mega-cheese.

What I wanted in the codex was for the rubbish eldar units to be brought up to the level of the good ones but so far the leaked buffs are all for already good units. We will need to see next Saturday but the bikes are OTT.

 Drasius wrote:
but Chaos? Chaos is even more boned.

Again I bring up the point of people rarely playing mono-codex lists in a competitive enviroment, but anyways. Ally some Flesh Hounds with Grimoire + Invisibility or Screamers. I guess by Chaos you ment Chaos in general. Daemons won't struggle with Jetbike spam at all. If you want CSM to deal with them, take 6 Sicarans.

"But that's just spamming one unit and it costs a lot of money" - so are Jetbikes with Scatter Lasers each.

 Runic wrote:

"But that's just spamming one unit and it costs a lot of money" - so are Jetbikes with Scatter Lasers each.

The better idea is not to to be a douche and play eldar spam scatter bikes in the first place.

Yep. But you will always have those people even in this game which requires you to interact and co-operate with others to for it to be sensible. Tournaments are a different thing entirely however.

Against the beforementioned people I just sigh, smile, and bring out the big guns.

Rippy wrote:The sky is fallin'

A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
The sky is fallin'

That's because it is made of jetbikes.

Threw these together

 Runic wrote:

 Drasius wrote:
but Chaos? Chaos is even more boned.

Again I bring up the point of people rarely playing mono-codex lists in a competitive enviroment, but anyways. Ally some Flesh Hounds with Grimoire + Invisibility or Screamers. I guess by Chaos you ment Chaos in general. Daemons won't struggle with Jetbike spam at all. If you want CSM to deal with them, take 6 Sicarans.

"But that's just spamming one unit and it costs a lot of money" - so are Jetbikes with Scatter Lasers each.

I actually meant CSM. If I ally in some hounds, screamers, heralds and grimoure, why would I need the CSM? Why wouldn't I just play mono daemons?

My local doesn't allow FW, so, yeah. No ultra cheese for me. I can run screamerstar, but much like I suspect the inevitable formations of 30+ bikes and points top up wraith units, it's not fun to play against, and it's not overly fun to play, so it only comes out against Tau or Eldar where my CSM don't have a hope in hell of even being on the table past turn 4. Even then, every time I add Daemons to my CSM, I can only think, "Why am I taking CSM to fill this role? The list would be much better with less CSM and more Daemons." until I get to the point where there are no CSM in the list at all.

 Talys wrote:

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:

Zen117 wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
What could we actually be missing that makes this unit worse than it looks? We have all the information about this one unit, and that's all that's needed to show they clearly haven't balanced the codex properly, if they've already taken one good unit and buffed it to stupidity. What else could we be missing that will balance this unit?

I'll give you one:

Army Special Rules -Battle Focus: Models with this special rule that are members of a Warhost can either Shoot and then Run or Run and then Shoot, in the same Shooting Phase. Must Complete....

Or how about this? What if the last two words were removed from the existing "Battle Focus" special rules, "... unless Relentless".

That would remove JSJ for any model with Heavy... like scatter lasers.

Have jetbikes ever even had Battle Focus?

Of course. How do you think they have jump shoot jump right now?

Also: If they didn't have battle focus and relentless, they could not JSJ scatter lasers now.

Ahhh... OK so people are arguing the effectiveness of units with people that don't know the rules... got it.

 Runic wrote:
Yep. But you will always have those people even in this game which requires you to interact and co-operate with others to for it to be sensible. Tournaments are a different thing entirely however.

Against the beforementioned people I just sigh, smile, and bring out the big guns.

You do realize that this issue is a battle forged issue. If you don't have to follow a force chart you can spam heavy weapons and death-stars already. I can think of hundreds of unbound ways to crush 50 eldar jetbikes probably spending half the points but that's not how this game is played.

I like how people are still convince that those bike arent OP. Stop thinking you need to bring a Jetbike ARMY to make the OP. Stop thinking we don't have all information. Just realise something: A TROOP squad of these, will overpower any other TROOP of the game, points for points.
With the lack of real restriction of Ally or formation shenanigan, there is no need to pick your other toys from the Eldar book, hence why we don't care if we don't have info on the rest of the codex.
Give ANY army the BEST troop choice of the game (cost effective too), and it will obviously help them get to the top.

Yep, that's what people are missing. Even someone bringing a couple of squads of 5 bikes to a casual game will have a pretty big advantage over his opponent, point for point. THAT is the great tragedy of this, not the tournament scene. Tournaments always manage.

Hell, just 6 squads of 3 would be cool. MSU with 12 S6 shots per for 81 points! 486 points and no issues with hiding the units or having to kill other MSUs with a turn of fire. Giving the same issue back as well "Oh, noes you killed my 81 points!" lol

What that guy says:

Yep, that's what people are missing. Even someone bringing a couple of squads of 5 bikes to a casual game will have a pretty big advantage over his opponent, point for point. THAT is the great tragedy of this, not the tournament scene. Tournaments always manage.

I couldn't care less of what new cheese people wil lbe bringing, because my opponent rarely go over board with that at my FLGS (some do, but more often then not, it's all in good fun).

The real problem I see with those Jetbike, is that it affect ANY friendly game. I'm not talking about someone spamming bikes on purpose. I'm talking about me and my friends playing games where the balance will already be screwed at the TROOP level. Where I live, we play 1 CADS with max 1 formation or 1 ally detachement, and we favorise 3-4 Troop because we think it favorise fun game. Well it won't be as fun to know that even before turn 1, the backbone of your army (the troops) can't match the power of their backbone, and by a long shot!

I have been giving my opinion on a lot of those ''imbalance'' thread. The key, IMHO, to balance, is to compare slot per slot between army, while enforcing strict rule on CADS/Ally and such.

 Drasius wrote:

 Runic wrote:

 Drasius wrote:
but Chaos? Chaos is even more boned.

Again I bring up the point of people rarely playing mono-codex lists in a competitive enviroment, but anyways. Ally some Flesh Hounds with Grimoire + Invisibility or Screamers. I guess by Chaos you ment Chaos in general. Daemons won't struggle with Jetbike spam at all. If you want CSM to deal with them, take 6 Sicarans.

"But that's just spamming one unit and it costs a lot of money" - so are Jetbikes with Scatter Lasers each.

I actually meant CSM. If I ally in some hounds, screamers, heralds and grimoure, why would I need the CSM? Why wouldn't I just play mono daemons?

My local doesn't allow FW, so, yeah. No ultra cheese for me. I can run screamerstar, but much like I suspect the inevitable formations of 30+ bikes and points top up wraith units, it's not fun to play against, and it's not overly fun to play, so it only comes out against Tau or Eldar where my CSM don't have a hope in hell of even being on the table past turn 4. Even then, every time I add Daemons to my CSM, I can only think, "Why am I taking CSM to fill this role? The list would be much better with less CSM and more Daemons." until I get to the point where there are no CSM in the list at all.

I'd say your group limiting options in a game that is already poorly balanced is then a big factor in how you can't counter the jetbikes. These days allowing Forgeworld is infact, better for people who need options to manage. The most broken units are in the normal codices, and that's that.

And I for one aren't saying they aren't overpowered, they obviously are. But they can still be crushed nonetheless, and that's fine for me.

Seriously, those who defend these jetbikes, answer this.

Would it be ok if every marine biker was to get a cheap special weapon? Seriously?

Naw wrote:
Seriously, those who defend these jetbikes, answer this.

Would it be ok if every marine biker was to get a cheap special weapon? Seriously?

I would say 'cheap heavy weapon'.

A better comparison is if every tactical marine got a relentless heavy bolter or assault cannon for 10 points.

Naw wrote:
Seriously, those who defend these jetbikes, answer this.

Would it be ok if every marine biker was to get a cheap special weapon? Seriously?

It would be fine. They don't have JSJ and cost 50% more.

 raiden wrote:
BA list at 1850 I would run vs eldar-

Baal strike force
Option 1- (my preferred)
HQ- 162
Sang priest w/ bolt pistol + bike-81
Sang priest w/ bolt pistol + bike-81
Troops-390
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Fast attack-561
7 bikes w/ 2 grav guns, combi grave-187
7 bikes w/ 2 grav guns, combi grave-187
7 bikes w/ 2 grav guns, combi grave-187
Elites-330
Fragnaught in pod w/ heavy flamer- 165
Fragnaught in pod w/ heavy flamer- 165
Heavy support-390
Dev squad w/ missile launchers- 130
Dev squad w/ missile launchers- 130
Dev squad w/ missile launchers- 130

20pts left over.

List 2-
HQs-
ML2 lib w/ Gallans staff (goes with command squad) on bike-120
ML1 lib-65 (goes with random tac unit)
Troops-390
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130

FA-345
ASM w/ 2 melta guns, combi-melta- 115 in pod
ASM w/ 2 melta guns, combi-melta- 115 in pod
ASM w/ 2 melta guns, combi-melta- 115 in pod

Elites-495
Command squad w/ jump packs-125
Fragnaught in pod w/ heavy flamer- 165
Fragnaught in pod w/ heavy flamer- 165
Fragnaught in pod w/ heavy flamer- 165

Heavy support-315
Predator w/ overcharged engines and heavy bolter sponsons- 105
Predator w/ overcharged engines and heavy bolter sponsons- 105
Predator w/ overcharged engines and heavy bolter sponsons- 105

FIrst off, those aren't TAC lists at all. What if you don't know you are playing against Eldar? I'm not able to list tailor. Ever. Secondly, I don't even think those are very good anti-Eldar lists. I can already envision Eldar intial deployments that would completely neuter your alpha strikes as well. Drop pods are very gimmicky.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I have to ask what the point of the MoS is on the Havocs.

6 points of fluff. If they do end up in assault they will strike ahead of guardians and simo with aspect warriors.

Havocs have assault grenades, so clearly they are more suited to assault than Incubi, Flayed ones, and and genestealers.

 raiden wrote:

 Toofast wrote:
Drop pod lists will be lucky to survive long enough for the second wave to come in. Even if you go first, you can't take out enough eldar to keep from being wiped. To those suggesting dreads, no tournament players (at least good ones) take dreads for a reason. 1 squad of jetbikes will glance one of those dreads to death in a turn. If you can't glance them with 810 points of bikes, I'm sure the 700 points of anti armor in the list will finish them off. Dreads aren't suddenly a good counter to the most broken troops in the history of 40k. They actually aren't a good counter to anything or you would see them in more than casual games.

fragcannons will hurt bikes. Alot.

2 templates at str6 rending. + a heavy flamer Str5 ap4. (coming at you twice)

the melta will take care of most AT, or, if its a wraith or sort, hurt it, The preds will be in range easily, pumping out a total of 6 str7 ap4 shots, and at worst, 9 str 5 ap4 shots not snap firing, if you can move 6" and shoot that jumps to 18 shots not snap firing.

The dreads don't have to live long, if they do it's icing. Or, let your infantry come in first, then drop the frags.

(Fragnaughts are extremely good for the points in pods)

Meh.

 pretre wrote:

Naw wrote:
Seriously, those who defend these jetbikes, answer this.

Would it be ok if every marine biker was to get a cheap special weapon? Seriously?

I would say 'cheap heavy weapon'.

A better comparison is if every tactical marine got a relentless heavy bolter or assault cannon for 10 points.

I would be happy with grav guns but yeah, I meant heavies, ie. assault cannon.

A heavy bolter is not even close to being on par with a scatter laser.

AP4 is nice, but one more shot and one more strength is still better.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
Funny enough I rafher like my emperors children chances.

Spoiler:

MOS Lord on bike with burning brand.

Four units of 10 noise marines with two blastmasters, icon, rhino.

Five MOS bikers with two melta guns, icon.
Two helldrakes

Two maulerfiends
One unit of 6 mos havoks wirh reaper autocannons.

Its a lot of ap 3 flamer templates and ignores cover shooting. Also the assault elements will have the speed to keep up. Also everything will get two saves in the form of armor save and fnp or Inv and iwnd. Now I personally think people are jumping tbey gun on how much sD weapons will show up, but if the fear becomes reality then its not going to be fun no matter what you bring. Even IKs.

I have to ask what the point of the MoS is on the Havocs.

Wasted points on theme and fluff, these guys don't even get an icon, though if I have the extra points it never hurts. Everything in the army that can be marked is marked. Its the Emperor's Children way.

 Ashiraya wrote:
A heavy bolter is not even close to being on par with a scatter laser.

AP4 is nice, but one more shot and one more strength is still better.

Yeah, Assault Cannon is almost there, but is more like a SC.

Heck, would you let marines have a scatter laser for 10 points each?

There is no Imperial weapon as good as a scatter laser. That's just extra insult to injury.

Martel732 wrote:
There is no Imperial weapon as good as a scatter laser. That's just extra insult to injury.

Ohh. Would you give each tactical marine an exorcist missile launcher (D6 S8 AP1 Heavy) and relentless for 10 points?

That'd do it.

Martel732 wrote:
There is no Imperial weapon as good as a scatter laser. That's just extra insult to injury.

Maybe CSM could instead have Hades Autocannons on their bikers for 10-15 points.

There we go.

Space Marine Bikers - 20 points and get a Exorcist ML for 10. Are now troops without an unlock character.

Sounds legit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
SOB, of course, don't get bikes but just can take 1 to 1 specials and heavies on BSS squads (including the ExoML) for +10 each.

Better idea for Sisters, you don't have to take the sister carrying the weapon, you just get free floating, auto targeting guns for 5pts.

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:
Better idea for Sisters, you don't have to take the sister carrying the weapon, you just get free floating, auto targeting guns for 5pts.

That's not the same though.

 PandaHero wrote:
I like how people are still convince that those bike arent OP. Stop thinking you need to bring a Jetbike ARMY to make the OP. Stop thinking we don't have all information. Just realise something: A TROOP squad of these, will overpower any other TROOP of the game, points for points.
With the lack of real restriction of Ally or formation shenanigan, there is no need to pick your other toys from the Eldar book, hence why we don't care if we don't have info on the rest of the codex.
Give ANY army the BEST troop choice of the game (cost effective too), and it will obviously help them get to the top.

Personally, I'm not trying to convince people they're not OP. They are, it's extremely over the top. But rather than just having 25 pages of crying and threatening to quit, I thought it would be more constructive to think about how to deal with them. I'd rather not deal with them, I'd rather this wasn't happening in the first place. But, since it exists, the options are a) quit and bitch online about how much you hate GW or b) continue playing and figure out how to survive.

I'd personally rather do the latter, I haven't even been playing for 2 full years yet and spent a good chunk of change on the hobby, I'd rather not throw that all away because of one unit.

I think relatively few people are saying to throw it all away.

I've been playing for 15-16 years and am not saying that.

Invisible Deathstrikes...Invisible Deathstrikes everywhere~

Requizen wrote:

 PandaHero wrote:
I like how people are still convince that those bike arent OP. Stop thinking you need to bring a Jetbike ARMY to make the OP. Stop thinking we don't have all information. Just realise something: A TROOP squad of these, will overpower any other TROOP of the game, points for points.
With the lack of real restriction of Ally or formation shenanigan, there is no need to pick your other toys from the Eldar book, hence why we don't care if we don't have info on the rest of the codex.
Give ANY army the BEST troop choice of the game (cost effective too), and it will obviously help them get to the top.

Personally, I'm not trying to convince people they're not OP. They are, it's extremely over the top. But rather than just having 25 pages of crying and threatening to quit, I thought it would be more constructive to think about how to deal with them. I'd rather not deal with them, I'd rather this wasn't happening in the first place. But, since it exists, the options are a) quit and bitch online about how much you hate GW or b) continue playing and figure out how to survive.

I'd personally rather do the latter, I haven't even been playing for 2 full years yet and spent a good chunk of change on the hobby, I'd rather not throw that all away because of one unit.

Quitting is a legitimate way to deal with them. At least until the 8th ed codex. There's a thing called a hiatus. I've taken three of them and I didn't throw anything away.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
There is no Imperial weapon as good as a scatter laser. That's just extra insult to injury.

Maybe CSM could instead have Hades Autocannons on their bikers for 10-15 points.

I was thinking Reaper Autocannons

A reaper is less powerful than a scatterlaser, but it's close. Hades are flat out way better, +2 str, 2 better AP, and pinning.

 Exergy wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
There is no Imperial weapon as good as a scatter laser. That's just extra insult to injury.

Maybe CSM could instead have Hades Autocannons on their bikers for 10-15 points.

I was thinking Reaper Autocannons

A reaper is less powerful than a scatterlaser, but it's close. Hades are flat out way better, +2 str, 2 better AP, and pinning.

A reaper autocannon would just be the poor mans Serpent Shield, two shots? Meh, it's not close at all.

And that's the point, why not continue this escalation of heavy weapons? It's not like they apparently care for balance anymore, ability to summon warp storms for S: D please!

Personally, I'm not trying to convince people they're not OP. They are, it's extremely over the top. But rather than just having 25 pages of crying and threatening to quit, I thought it would be more constructive to think about how to deal with them. I'd rather not deal with them, I'd rather this wasn't happening in the first place. But, since it exists, the options are a) quit and bitch online about how much you hate GW or b) continue playing and figure out how to survive.

I'd personally rather do the latter, I haven't even been playing for 2 full years yet and spent a good chunk of change on the hobby, I'd rather not throw that all away because of one unit.

I don't have 20k points of whatever lying under my bed sorry. I know I can't match these troop. I'm not saying I can't win, but I just can't match their troop. That's an absolute true. So now, what do I have: a 25 page thread of people that like to share their opinion. And my opinion is simple: 40k rock, but GW is not good at rule writing. It piss me off that everytime I put my well though list (I am careful when list building and I submit often here for idea or approval) on the board, I pick it up moments later when someone is telling me: Ok so this unit can move 12inch, shoot 36inch 4 shoot strenght 6 each, and then move back 2D6. Oh and they are my troop choice and have ObSec, enjoy!

Martel732 wrote:
Quitting is a legitimate way to deal with them. At least until the 8th ed codex. There's a thing called a hiatus. I've taken three of them and I didn't throw anything away.

This won't help much, in 8th they'll get buffed again.

No one needs to quit, just quit playing against Eldar (and Necron). There are plenty of other armies to play.

Martel732 wrote:

 raiden wrote:
BA list at 1850 I would run vs eldar-

Baal strike force
Option 1- (my preferred)
HQ- 162
Sang priest w/ bolt pistol + bike-81
Sang priest w/ bolt pistol + bike-81
Troops-390
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Fast attack-561
7 bikes w/ 2 grav guns, combi grave-187
7 bikes w/ 2 grav guns, combi grave-187
7 bikes w/ 2 grav guns, combi grave-187
Elites-330
Fragnaught in pod w/ heavy flamer- 165
Fragnaught in pod w/ heavy flamer- 165
Heavy support-390
Dev squad w/ missile launchers- 130
Dev squad w/ missile launchers- 130
Dev squad w/ missile launchers- 130

20pts left over.

List 2-
HQs-
ML2 lib w/ Gallans staff (goes with command squad) on bike-120
ML1 lib-65 (goes with random tac unit)
Troops-390
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130

FA-345
ASM w/ 2 melta guns, combi-melta- 115 in pod
ASM w/ 2 melta guns, combi-melta- 115 in pod
ASM w/ 2 melta guns, combi-melta- 115 in pod

Elites-495
Command squad w/ jump packs-125
Fragnaught in pod w/ heavy flamer- 165
Fragnaught in pod w/ heavy flamer- 165
Fragnaught in pod w/ heavy flamer- 165

Heavy support-315
Predator w/ overcharged engines and heavy bolter sponsons- 105
Predator w/ overcharged engines and heavy bolter sponsons- 105
Predator w/ overcharged engines and heavy bolter sponsons- 105

FIrst off, those aren't TAC lists at all. What if you don't know you are playing against Eldar? I'm not able to list tailor. Ever. Secondly, I don't even think those are very good anti-Eldar lists. I can already envision Eldar intial deployments that would completely neuter your alpha strikes as well. Drop pods are very gimmicky.

They actually are, the only lacking tac from either list is anti-air. All you need is 1 fragnaught to ruin jetbikes day.
Fragnaughts are good vs everyone.

Grav-bikes can ruin eldar day, or WK. They also ruin many other peoples day.

Drop plas has always been a great TAC list,

Devasators are quite devastating if they get 1-2 shots off. Always have been. With missile launchers they are the purest TAC heavy weapon.
Please tell me what part about this list save flyers is tailored? I have horde killing, elite killing, MC killing, tank killing.

If it makes you feel better take melta on the tac squads instead of plasma

There's your counter lists. Waaaahhhh

I still think those lists would be massacred by current Eldar, much less the new one. MLs got a bit better in 7th, but only because lascannons and melta got worse. Devs are still bad, though. There's just not enough dakka in the BA codex to compete

 raiden wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 raiden wrote:
BA list at 1850 I would run vs eldar-

Baal strike force
Option 1- (my preferred)
HQ- 162
Sang priest w/ bolt pistol + bike-81
Sang priest w/ bolt pistol + bike-81
Troops-390
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Fast attack-561
7 bikes w/ 2 grav guns, combi grave-187
7 bikes w/ 2 grav guns, combi grave-187
7 bikes w/ 2 grav guns, combi grave-187
Elites-330
Fragnaught in pod w/ heavy flamer- 165
Fragnaught in pod w/ heavy flamer- 165
Heavy support-390
Dev squad w/ missile launchers- 130
Dev squad w/ missile launchers- 130
Dev squad w/ missile launchers- 130

20pts left over.

List 2-
HQs-
ML2 lib w/ Gallans staff (goes with command squad) on bike-120
ML1 lib-65 (goes with random tac unit)
Troops-390
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130

FA-345
ASM w/ 2 melta guns, combi-melta- 115 in pod
ASM w/ 2 melta guns, combi-melta- 115 in pod
ASM w/ 2 melta guns, combi-melta- 115 in pod

Elites-495
Command squad w/ jump packs-125
Fragnaught in pod w/ heavy flamer- 165
Fragnaught in pod w/ heavy flamer- 165
Fragnaught in pod w/ heavy flamer- 165

Heavy support-315
Predator w/ overcharged engines and heavy bolter sponsons- 105
Predator w/ overcharged engines and heavy bolter sponsons- 105
Predator w/ overcharged engines and heavy bolter sponsons- 105

FIrst off, those aren't TAC lists at all. What if you don't know you are playing against Eldar? I'm not able to list tailor. Ever. Secondly, I don't even think those are very good anti-Eldar lists. I can already envision Eldar intial deployments that would completely neuter your alpha strikes as well. Drop pods are very gimmicky.

They actually are, the only lacking tac from either list is anti-air. All you need is 1 fragnaught to ruin jetbikes day.
Fragnaughts are good vs everyone.

Grav-bikes can ruin eldar day, or WK. They also ruin many other peoples day.

Drop plas has always been a great TAC list,

Devasators are quite devastating if they get 1-2 shots off. Always have been. With missile launchers they are the purest TAC heavy weapon.
Please tell me what part about this list save flyers is tailored? I have horde killing, elite killing, MC killing, tank killing.

If it makes you feel better take melta on the tac squads instead of plasma

There's your counter lists. Waaaahhhh

I didn't know the true prophet of 40K himself was here. All hail the once and future king.

Or you could look back through the thread as to why those won't work...

 liquidjoshi wrote:

 raiden wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 raiden wrote:
BA list at 1850 I would run vs eldar-

Baal strike force
Option 1- (my preferred)
HQ- 162
Sang priest w/ bolt pistol + bike-81
Sang priest w/ bolt pistol + bike-81
Troops-390
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Fast attack-561
7 bikes w/ 2 grav guns, combi grave-187
7 bikes w/ 2 grav guns, combi grave-187
7 bikes w/ 2 grav guns, combi grave-187
Elites-330
Fragnaught in pod w/ heavy flamer- 165
Fragnaught in pod w/ heavy flamer- 165
Heavy support-390
Dev squad w/ missile launchers- 130
Dev squad w/ missile launchers- 130
Dev squad w/ missile launchers- 130

20pts left over.

List 2-
HQs-
ML2 lib w/ Gallans staff (goes with command squad) on bike-120
ML1 lib-65 (goes with random tac unit)
Troops-390
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130
Tac squad w/ plasma gun, combi plasma in pod- 130

FA-345
ASM w/ 2 melta guns, combi-melta- 115 in pod
ASM w/ 2 melta guns, combi-melta- 115 in pod
ASM w/ 2 melta guns, combi-melta- 115 in pod

Elites-495
Command squad w/ jump packs-125
Fragnaught in pod w/ heavy flamer- 165
Fragnaught in pod w/ heavy flamer- 165
Fragnaught in pod w/ heavy flamer- 165

Heavy support-315
Predator w/ overcharged engines and heavy bolter sponsons- 105
Predator w/ overcharged engines and heavy bolter sponsons- 105
Predator w/ overcharged engines and heavy bolter sponsons- 105

FIrst off, those aren't TAC lists at all. What if you don't know you are playing against Eldar? I'm not able to list tailor. Ever. Secondly, I don't even think those are very good anti-Eldar lists. I can already envision Eldar intial deployments that would completely neuter your alpha strikes as well. Drop pods are very gimmicky.

They actually are, the only lacking tac from either list is anti-air. All you need is 1 fragnaught to ruin jetbikes day.
Fragnaughts are good vs everyone.

Grav-bikes can ruin eldar day, or WK. They also ruin many other peoples day.

Drop plas has always been a great TAC list,

Devasators are quite devastating if they get 1-2 shots off. Always have been. With missile launchers they are the purest TAC heavy weapon.
Please tell me what part about this list save flyers is tailored? I have horde killing, elite killing, MC killing, tank killing.

If it makes you feel better take melta on the tac squads instead of plasma

There's your counter lists. Waaaahhhh

I didn't know the true prophet of 40K himself was here. All hail the once and future king.

Or you could look back through the thread as to why those won't work...

Yes. Let's devolve into petty clichéd insults and vague 'refer to' to a thread I've been in since page 2.

A fragnaught alone cab easily kill 4 bikes, any deep striking AT is waiting until T2 to come in. List 2 is indeed a tad more tailored and safer than 1. W.e.

WK will most likely have a 3+ still. 12 str 8 ap3 rockets will hurt if not kill it. GC or not. Grav will hurt if not kill it. It will also force scatterbikes to jink.honestly in list 1 I Am not worried much about the WK save as counter assault unit.

No. Eldar don't always GI first.

I honestly don't think those lists can win. Especially if the Eldar player sets up in a savvy manner. Your fragnoughts won't be able to hit the bikes.

 raiden wrote:


Yes. Let's devolve into petty clichéd insults and vague 'refer to' to a thread I've been in since page 2.

A fragnaught alone cab easily kill 4 bikes, any deep striking AT is waiting until T2 to come in. List 2 is indeed a tad more tailored and safer than 1. W.e.

WK will most likely have a 3+ still. 12 str 8 ap3 rockets will hurt if not kill it. GC or not. Grav will hurt if not kill it. It will also force scatterbikes to jink.honestly in list 1 I Am not worried much about the WK save as counter assault unit.

No. Eldar don't always GI first.

Your counter argument to Martel consisted of "Nuh uh, these things ruin X's day". He's the BA expert here, not me. If you're not going to give real answers, don't expect real respect for them.

In other words, HAIL THE PROPHET.

*Ahem*

Anyway, your list wouldn't scare my Tau or IG. If you're admitting to straight up tailoring, then I still don't think you'll get far against Eldar. The bikes will have AT support. If you pod, those units will be on the board one, two turns tops.

 liquidjoshi wrote:

 raiden wrote:


Yes. Let's devolve into petty clichéd insults and vague 'refer to' to a thread I've been in since page 2.

A fragnaught alone cab easily kill 4 bikes, any deep striking AT is waiting until T2 to come in. List 2 is indeed a tad more tailored and safer than 1. W.e.

WK will most likely have a 3+ still. 12 str 8 ap3 rockets will hurt if not kill it. GC or not. Grav will hurt if not kill it. It will also force scatterbikes to jink.honestly in list 1 I Am not worried much about the WK save as counter assault unit.

No. Eldar don't always GI first.

Your counter argument to Martel consisted of "Nuh uh, these things ruin X's day". He's the BA expert here, not me. If you're not going to give real answers, don't expect real respect for them.

In other words, HAIL THE PROPHET.

*Ahem*

Anyway, your list wouldn't scare my Tau or IG. If you're admitting to straight up tailoring, then I still don't think you'll get far against Eldar. The bikes will have AT support. If you pod, those units will be on the board one, two turns tops.

I gave reasoning behind every selection I made. This entire thread us based on the premise X ruins 'zyv's day nerf please. Yeah they have AT for my two dreads who have already done most of their damage.

The devastators will drop 1-2 scatterbikes a turn IF they jink or get a cover save.

List 2 would be even more devastating. With psychic shrieking libs.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
I honestly don't think those lists can win. Especially if the Eldar player sets up in a savvy manner. Your fragnoughts won't be able to hit the bikes.

I play Raven wing. Jet bikes take more space than marine bikes. Where exactly are you hiding 30 bikes?

He doenst need to hide the bike, He just have to deploy in order to block your from deppstrike shenanigans, hence making your alpha strike less effective, therefore not countering the list. 30 Bike has a massive footprint, so deepstiking against them will probably put you in the middle of the board anyway

..... Then I still get to template his bikes? I don't see the issue. I'd rather DS bear the middle of the board. Won't go off the edge as easily and I can snuggle up to his bikes with the pod.

 PandaHero wrote:
He doenst need to hide the bike, He just have to deploy in order to block your from deppstrike shenanigans, hence making your alpha strike less effective, therefore not countering the list. 30 Bike has a massive footprint, so deepstiking against them will probably put you in the middle of the board anyway

That's not necessarily a bad thing, to be in the middle of the board. As long as it gets the Plasmas/Combi-Plasmas into firing range, you don't need to drop in their backfield. If you can, awesome. If you can't, then the job of the Drop Pod is to get your Marines into a good firing position on Turn 1. If they die, ok they did their job. If not, then enjoy killing more things next turn.

I run fragiosos a lot. Anyone who knows how to set up against them can easily make them have only crappy options to lay templates on. You know how I'd deal with that pod list you threw down? Deploy like 4 5man scatbikes squads (I said before I'd probably run 4 5 man groups and 2 10 man with farseers and warlocks in a cad for obsec, not even a full list,) if I have to go first and you null deploy, turbo boost around my table half, and max out my 2" coherency in non-flamer shapes. Pods come in, some bikes jink, a few die here and there, and then I get reserves, so any marines that podded in die immediately. The fragioso(s) will either get rear-armored to death this turn if you put it near my table edge in any facing, or left in the dust by a turbo boost and become irrelevant for several turns of move+runs. 2nd wave of pods, I don't mind jinking, boosting away, and leaving you alone for a turn if they all come in, because on the turn where you can't convince me to make the bikes jink, you start losing your army.

With a bit of luck and proper play, I could handle those pod lists with JUST the bikes, never mind the other 5-600 points of my army that could be anything, like say, a tau firebase formation all with early warning override.

My point is: Someone can actually position 30 bike easily to push your deepstrike far enough that you could only hit 1 squad of bike effectively (well maybe not only 1 squad, but I can definitly place my bike to reduce the number of target you get). I don't see how you can absord the retaliation after.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
aka, it's easy to make someone not cost effective with drop pods when you have a large footprint army.

That doesn't include Wave Serpent spacing shenaningans to make all the bikes behind them undroppable. Most IoM players crowing about drop pods don't have opponents who understand how to set up against them. That's my experience. Because the players I play with are very good at minimizing alpha strikes.

This sums up well how I feel.

niv-mizzet wrote:
I run fragiosos a lot. Anyone who knows how to set up against them can easily make them have only crappy options to lay templates on. You know how I'd deal with that pod list you threw down? Deploy like 4 5man scatbikes squads (I said before I'd probably run 4 5 man groups and 2 10 man with farseers and warlocks in a cad for obsec, not even a full list,) if I have to go first and you null deploy, turbo boost around my table half, and max out my 2" coherency in non-flamer shapes. Pods come in, some bikes jink, a few die here and there, and then I get reserves, so any marines that podded in die immediately. The fragioso(s) will either get rear-armored to death this turn if you put it near my table edge in any facing, or left in the dust by a turbo boost and become irrelevant for several turns of move+runs. 2nd wave of pods, I don't mind jinking, boosting away, and leaving you alone for a turn if they all come in, because on the turn where you can't convince me to make the bikes jink, you start losing your army.

With a bit of luck and proper play, I could handle those pod lists with JUST the bikes, never mind the other 5-600 points of my army that could be anything, like say, a tau firebase formation all with early warning override.

There's probably a WK rocket punching the dreads as well.

So I just had an evil thought....Kill Team

Eldar jetbikes were evil before this now they are evin worse.
200 pts lets you take 7 Scatterlaser Jetbikes (7x27=189)
So you could take 2 squads of 3 with 38pts to spare for upgrades like warlocks ect as a troop :-(
This would slaughter pritty much anything a kill team could feild and have the best manuverability and saves possable wile doing it.....not broken at all lol

 Drasius wrote:
I'm more worried about the effect on marines, since if you're tooling up specifically to kill hoards of T4 3+ save eldar jetbike units, then marines are going to have a mad time. It's OK for marines, 'cause they can field bikes as troops (for now), but Chaos? Chaos is even more boned.

You never know. GW could make a refreshed Assault Marine and/or refreshed Bike kit, and make either/both troops, later in the year when they make the SM codex. Both kits are dated (the ASM one horribly so), and this would encourage people to go and buy multiple boxes of plastic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
That doesn't include Wave Serpent spacing shenaningans to make all the bikes behind them undroppable. Most IoM players crowing about drop pods don't have opponents who understand how to set up against them. That's my experience. Because the players I play with are very good at minimizing alpha strikes.

There is no good way to hide 40 bikes, man. They gotta go somewhere.

We now have confirmation that all distort weapons are Strength D.

The one modification we know of so far is that the small ones on wraithguard are a -1 on the chart.

Still, hitting on 3+ and another 3+ to deal D3 hullpoints is rough for vehicles.

Oh, and wraightknights are 295pts base with a D strength sword.

I'm no game designologist, but I'm about 97.4832% certain that's not balanced.

Whelp, someone on warseer has the book. And its worse than I thought.

Wraithknights clocking in under 300 points.
jetbike stupidity confirmed.
str D everywhere (thought on wraiths, you get minus 1 to the d roll, so no 6 result possible)

interesting that things like banshees and shining spears get the +3 to charge distance like skitarii have. Must be a new thing they are gonna give to alot of assault units from here on out.

Get it together Orock, I beat you by 14secs.

 PandaHero wrote:
He doenst need to hide the bike, He just have to deploy in order to block your from deppstrike shenanigans, hence making your alpha strike less effective, therefore not countering the list. 30 Bike has a massive footprint, so deepstiking against them will probably put you in the middle of the board anyway

Remember that 10 bikes is the same price as 2 drop pods with 6 plasma. As I said, 30-40 bikes on a board with meaningful terrain takes up a HUGE amount of space. These are not 25mm imperial guard lol.

 Blacksails wrote:
Get it together Orock, I beat you by 14secs.

PORQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There is no good way to hide 40 bikes, man. They gotta go somewhere.

Again, you don't need to hide them. You need to make a large enough footprint to control where the Pod are dropping, hence reducing the alpha stike. with good spacing, you just screw a pod list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
space your bike, control the pod drop, and then fly away.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and, you DONT need 30-40 bike. I think min squad that total up 20-25 bikes are going to be the sweet spot

 PandaHero wrote:

There is no good way to hide 40 bikes, man. They gotta go somewhere.

Again, you don't need to hide them. You need to make a large enough footprint to control where the Pod are dropping, hence reducing the alpha stike. with good spacing, you just screw a pod list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
space your bike, control the pod drop, and then fly away.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and, you DONT need 30-40 bike. I think min squad that total up 20-25 bikes are going to be the sweet spot

I doubt you can force my two fragnaughts to not Target two different units. And even just covering 3 models= 6 str6 hits rending + a str 8 ap2 shot or another heavy flamer. You are on average losing 3-4 bikes. So those two 5 man squads are nuetered. Your other squads are most likely jinking,

Then you can deal with my plasma+ 12 str8 ap3 coming in from the dev squads as I happliy ignore your WK, yay, you turbo boost away. Now you are in range of my 3 bike units with ungoldly amounts of grav weaponry. All my bikes have to do is hold center field, with my drop pod units holding the sides (or at least threatening them). My bikes from center will catch yours 80% of the time. Even if you turbo boost, if you turbo, you aren't shooting. All the while happy missiles rain on you from afar.

30 bikes + farseer(bare) + 2 warlocks= 1010. Yeah, you can fit in 2 WKs with men weaponry. Yeah, they will most likely down my dreads, but I never except them to live anyway. After taking the bikes our of the picture, your two WKs are easy prey to all the ap3 I have.

Guys guys guys... please... chill out about the scatter lasers... it's fine. Lets give jetbikes who use SC 's Shred once per game, to make everything fair.
That solves the problem.

Raiden, its pretty easy to paint a pretty picture when you conveniently ignore the Eldar shooting phase.

The more leaks are not helping.

^that^
and it seem like hes playing on an empty board where pod drop always where it will cause the most damage. Anyway, I don't play Eldar, and I don't play against eldar.

 Registered Ork Offender wrote:
Guys guys guys... please... chill out about the scatter lasers... it's fine. Lets give jetbikes who use SC 's Shred once per game, to make everything fair.
That solves the problem.

Only in the war host, which makes them much less spammable.

 Talys wrote:

 Registered Ork Offender wrote:
Guys guys guys... please... chill out about the scatter lasers... it's fine. Lets give jetbikes who use SC 's Shred once per game, to make everything fair.
That solves the problem.

Only in the war host, which makes them much less spammable.

Umm. The Warhost requires just Farseer, Bikes and Vyper, right? That's what you want anyways.

 PandaHero wrote:

There is no good way to hide 40 bikes, man. They gotta go somewhere.

Again, you don't need to hide them. You need to make a large enough footprint to control where the Pod are dropping, hence reducing the alpha stike. with good spacing, you just screw a pod list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
space your bike, control the pod drop, and then fly away.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and, you DONT need 30-40 bike. I think min squad that total up 20-25 bikes are going to be the sweet spot

But, 20 bikes is not spam IMO. The premise of this thread is 810 points in bikes, which, in my opinion is not a winning formula.

It solves the problem! Do not question your Eldar overlords!!

 Talys wrote:

 PandaHero wrote:

There is no good way to hide 40 bikes, man. They gotta go somewhere.

Again, you don't need to hide them. You need to make a large enough footprint to control where the Pod are dropping, hence reducing the alpha stike. with good spacing, you just screw a pod list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
space your bike, control the pod drop, and then fly away.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and, you DONT need 30-40 bike. I think min squad that total up 20-25 bikes are going to be the sweet spot

But, 20 bikes is not spam IMO. The premise of this thread is 810 points in bikes, which, in my opinion is not a winning formula.

Premise is actually 1080. It is in the title.

That being said... Now we don't even need that many. Check out the other thread.

 Talys wrote:

 PandaHero wrote:

There is no good way to hide 40 bikes, man. They gotta go somewhere.

Again, you don't need to hide them. You need to make a large enough footprint to control where the Pod are dropping, hence reducing the alpha stike. with good spacing, you just screw a pod list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
space your bike, control the pod drop, and then fly away.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and, you DONT need 30-40 bike. I think min squad that total up 20-25 bikes are going to be the sweet spot

But, 20 bikes is not spam IMO. The premise of this thread is 810 points in bikes, which, in my opinion is not a winning formula.

20 bikes are still throwing more S6 firepower across the board than any IG army I can think of for anything near the same amount of points, much less with the same accuracy and resiliency.

Ugh those codex leaks, made it so much worse

I can just see the LVO rules next year.

Codex: Eldar banned.

I see even less reason to actually consent to a game vs an Eldar play now than with the previous codex. If I wanted to play a game of setting up my models and then packing them away, I'd play apoc where I can at least have a chance at doing the same to the other guy.

 Orock wrote:
I can just see the LVO rules next year.

Codex: Eldar banned.

GW seems to be repeating a lot of mistakes from the past with this codex.

Free weapons/models with X formation, much like the much bemoaned free Aspiring Champs in the 3.5E codex.

And an Eldar books that looks to be strongly reminiscent of the issues with the 2E Eldar codex and 7E Daemon book that resulted in massive edition changes to fix with 3E 40k reboot and 8E WHFB respectively.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Orock wrote:
I can just see the LVO rules next year.

Codex: Eldar banned.

GW seems to be repeating a lot of mistakes from the past with this codex.

Free weapons/models with X formation, much like the much bemoaned free Aspiring Champs in the 3.5E codex.

And an Eldar books that looks to be strongly reminiscent of the issues with the 2E Eldar codex and 7E Daemon book that resulted in massive edition changes to fix with 3E 40k reboot and 8E WHFB respectively.

yeah, well they never really learn.

Thus far, if heavy weapons were 1 per 3 jetbikes I am not seeing anything totally game breaking yet. Ranged strength D could be ok, if there is a cost, limits on how many, and limited range. The problem is when you pair ranged strD with superb and cheap anti light armor and infantry with great range.


I have hopes that the real codex says 1 per 3 or that they can errata it. My hopes will be dashed, but I stopped playing competitively when DE got nerfed in 7th anyway.

It doesn't.

1110 points of shoota boys puts out 135 shoota boyz and 15 big shoota boyz that's 270 s4 shots and 45 str5 shots.

Our dice will blot out the sun and destroy the planet in nukleer winter.

 Rismonite wrote:
1110 points of shoota boys puts out 135 shoota boyz and 15 big shoota boyz that's 270 s4 shots and 45 str5 shots.

Our dice will blot out the sun and destroy the planet in nukleer winter.

Aaaannd the effective range of those shoota boys? (24" plus 6" move, 30")

And the expected life expectancy when they get shot at by 160 S6 shots from outside that effective range? (120 hits, 100 wounds, 83 Dead after 5+ cover from 12" move + 36" shooting away)

Case closed.

 Talys wrote:

 PandaHero wrote:

There is no good way to hide 40 bikes, man. They gotta go somewhere.

Again, you don't need to hide them. You need to make a large enough footprint to control where the Pod are dropping, hence reducing the alpha stike. with good spacing, you just screw a pod list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
space your bike, control the pod drop, and then fly away.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and, you DONT need 30-40 bike. I think min squad that total up 20-25 bikes are going to be the sweet spot

But, 20 bikes is not spam IMO. The premise of this thread is 810 points in bikes, which, in my opinion is not a winning formula.

those 20 bikes at 405 pts out shot and outrange most of my army.

Even if they are in range first turn, which would be silly.

270 shots. 90 Hit. 45 Wound. 15 Dead Bikes from Shootas.
45 Shots. 15 Hit. 10 Wound. 3 Dead from Big Shootas.

18 Dead bikes.

Bikes move back 12", shoot 36. ~37 Boys die to return fire and the bikes jump out of range in the assault phase. Now they just keep out of your range for the rest of the game. Since they outrange you by 12".

Makumba wrote:

 Talys wrote:

 PandaHero wrote:

There is no good way to hide 40 bikes, man. They gotta go somewhere.

Again, you don't need to hide them. You need to make a large enough footprint to control where the Pod are dropping, hence reducing the alpha stike. with good spacing, you just screw a pod list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
space your bike, control the pod drop, and then fly away.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and, you DONT need 30-40 bike. I think min squad that total up 20-25 bikes are going to be the sweet spot

But, 20 bikes is not spam IMO. The premise of this thread is 810 points in bikes, which, in my opinion is not a winning formula.

those 20 bikes at 405 pts out shot and outrange most of my army.

Those 20 bikes can outshooot and outrange most Tau.

 pretre wrote:
Even if they are in range first turn, which would be silly.

270 shots. 90 Hit. 45 Wound. 15 Dead Bikes from Shootas.
45 Shots. 15 Hit. 10 Wound. 3 Dead from Big Shootas.

18 Dead bikes.

Bikes move back 12", shoot 36. ~37 Boys die to return fire and the bikes jump out of range in the assault phase. Now they just keep out of your range for the rest of the game. Since they outrange you by 12".

It's still in a vacuum, compare it to 7 dakkajets. Four Land Raiders can take'em.

Really? Four land raiders? Now that's a list that drop melta BA can actually dominate.

 Rismonite wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Even if they are in range first turn, which would be silly.

270 shots. 90 Hit. 45 Wound. 15 Dead Bikes from Shootas.
45 Shots. 15 Hit. 10 Wound. 3 Dead from Big Shootas.

18 Dead bikes.

Bikes move back 12", shoot 36. ~37 Boys die to return fire and the bikes jump out of range in the assault phase. Now they just keep out of your range for the rest of the game. Since they outrange you by 12".

It's still in a vacuum, compare it to 7 dakkajets. Four Land Raiders can take'em.

But four land raiders can't take the Fire Prism squadrons (capable of getting S10 AP1 shots at them) or Fire Dragons with a load of melta or Waithguard with Strength D shooting.

As for 7 dakkajets? It has AV10 doesn't it? So how is it gonna survive all that massed S6 shooting turning its way?

Or the Swooping Hawks who can haywire it is they move over it in the movement phase.

Four land raiders. Meet a single wraith knight.

Four land raiders. Meet any decent list commanded by a reasonably experienced commander. Land Raiders are bad. There's no way to dress them up as anything but bad.

 pretre wrote:
Four land raiders. Meet a single wraith knight.

RAMMING SPEED!

Luckly whats inside the landraider usually can handle the wraith knights

 Desubot wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Four land raiders. Meet a single wraith knight.

RAMMING SPEED!

Luckly whats inside the landraider usually can handle the wraith knights

HOw many points are we talking about here?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cause you can just screen the wk with all the bikes to prevent charge.

40 shots, 40/6 hit, 200/36 wound. 200/216 dead termies to over watch. Not good for the bikes. They get swept and the termies get shot to death.

 pretre wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Four land raiders. Meet a single wraith knight.

RAMMING SPEED!

Luckly whats inside the landraider usually can handle the wraith knights

HOw many points are we talking about here?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cause you can just screen the wk with all the bikes to prevent charge.

40 shots, 40/6 hit, 200/36 wound. 200/216 dead termies to over watch. Not good for the bikes. They get swept and the termies get shot to death.

Well 4 land raiders are 1k points. So 800ish for other things

Martel732 wrote:
Four land raiders. Meet any decent list commanded by a reasonably experienced commander. Land Raiders are bad. There's no way to dress them up as anything but bad.

I want to disagree with this, I want to think that really they're "relatively decent" units.

And against most of the later 6E/early7E armies, I'd say still they are.

But with the vastly expanded array of weapons, super-units, and the Necron and new Eldar books, and other such things having been hamfisted into 40k in the last year or so (and increasingly so in the last few months), it's apparent that they are, well, not "bad" but...just poorly positioned.

And I really don't think the issue is with the Land Raider in and of itself, but just the reality of the game where such a unit straddles the line of "too big & capable to really be made cheeper, too small to benefit from being a superheavy and too vulnerable to heavy anti-tank hardcounters". It also cant rely on target saturation like Leman Russ tanks often can because it's the clear big threat carrying another clear and big threat typically

Too much square peg-round hole.

Yeah, that's not good for the land raiders. 800 more points gets a wk and either wraith guard or some other D.

 raiden wrote:

 pretre wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 pretre wrote:
Four land raiders. Meet a single wraith knight.

RAMMING SPEED!

Luckly whats inside the landraider usually can handle the wraith knights

HOw many points are we talking about here?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cause you can just screen the wk with all the bikes to prevent charge.

40 shots, 40/6 hit, 200/36 wound. 200/216 dead termies to over watch. Not good for the bikes. They get swept and the termies get shot to death.

Well 4 land raiders are 1k points. So 800ish for other things

So now the counter for 800-1000 points of bikes (~half of the Eldar army) is taking up the entire opposing army?

 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Four land raiders. Meet any decent list commanded by a reasonably experienced commander. Land Raiders are bad. There's no way to dress them up as anything but bad.

I want to disagree with this, I want to think that really they're "relatively decent" units.

And against most of the later 6E/early7E armies, I'd say still they are.

But with the vastly expanded array of weapons, super-units, and the Necron and new Eldar books, and other such things having been hamfisted into 40k in the last year or so (and increasingly so in the last few months), it's apparent that they are, well, not "bad" but...just poorly positioned.

And I really don't think the issue is with the Land Raider in and of itself, but just the reality of the game where such a unit straddles the line of "too big & capable to really be made cheeper, too small to benefit from being a superheavy and too vulnerable to heavy anti-tank hardcounters". It also cant rely on target saturation like Leman Russ tanks often can because it's the clear big threat carrying another clear and big threat typically

Too much square peg-round hole.

I'm sticking with bad. Because nothing makes me HAPPIER than to see land raiders in the enemy list.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:


So now the counter for 800-1000 points of bikes (~half of the Eldar army) is taking up the entire opposing army?

Best way to win a gun fight is to bring two guns

 Desubot wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:


So now the counter for 800-1000 points of bikes (~half of the Eldar army) is taking up the entire opposing army?

Best way to win a gun fight is to bring two guns

Wrong.you bring the right gun. 2 .50 cal rifles won't help you a bit if I've got a pistol 20ft away

Better is the guy that remembered to bring ammo

Gamgee wrote:
Jesus. What the hell. It seems the Eldar will continue to be the top dogs. Watch them not get a single nerf. The only possible cherry on top to make these situation worse. At this rate its going to be End Times Everyone vs Eldar.

Everyone Vs Eldar would be pretty interesting to see in Fluff actually... like The Eldar Take out the Emperor, which causes all of IOM to decide they must exterminate all Eldar. The Tyranid Hive fleet rolls on in seeing how much food is there (with all the armies clashing), The Necrons decide to take out an age old enemy for good, the Tau Etherals find out that the Eldar know their secrets and must die, and DE just say hey this seems cool and rips them a new one!

There is only war!!!!!!

 luky7dayz wrote:


There is only war!!!!!!

And Jetbikes.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Four land raiders. Meet any decent list commanded by a reasonably experienced commander. Land Raiders are bad. There's no way to dress them up as anything but bad.

I want to disagree with this, I want to think that really they're "relatively decent" units.

And against most of the later 6E/early7E armies, I'd say still they are.

But with the vastly expanded array of weapons, super-units, and the Necron and new Eldar books, and other such things having been hamfisted into 40k in the last year or so (and increasingly so in the last few months), it's apparent that they are, well, not "bad" but...just poorly positioned.

And I really don't think the issue is with the Land Raider in and of itself, but just the reality of the game where such a unit straddles the line of "too big & capable to really be made cheeper, too small to benefit from being a superheavy and too vulnerable to heavy anti-tank hardcounters". It also cant rely on target saturation like Leman Russ tanks often can because it's the clear big threat carrying another clear and big threat typically

Too much square peg-round hole.

Land Raiders suck because basically every army has easily available means of killing them reliably. Imperials have melta, grav, and D. Eldar have melta and D. Nids have haywire. Necrons have Gauss. Tau have melta. And so on. You might occasionally catch someone off guard, but most of the time you're just handing them easy points.

Even if they never die, Land Raiders still suck That's how bad they are.

 DarkLink wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Four land raiders. Meet any decent list commanded by a reasonably experienced commander. Land Raiders are bad. There's no way to dress them up as anything but bad.

I want to disagree with this, I want to think that really they're "relatively decent" units.

And against most of the later 6E/early7E armies, I'd say still they are.

But with the vastly expanded array of weapons, super-units, and the Necron and new Eldar books, and other such things having been hamfisted into 40k in the last year or so (and increasingly so in the last few months), it's apparent that they are, well, not "bad" but...just poorly positioned.

And I really don't think the issue is with the Land Raider in and of itself, but just the reality of the game where such a unit straddles the line of "too big & capable to really be made cheeper, too small to benefit from being a superheavy and too vulnerable to heavy anti-tank hardcounters". It also cant rely on target saturation like Leman Russ tanks often can because it's the clear big threat carrying another clear and big threat typically

Too much square peg-round hole.

Land Raiders suck because basically every army has easily available means of killing them reliably. Imperials have melta, grav, and D. Eldar have melta and D. Nids have haywire. Necrons have Gauss. Tau have melta. And so on. You might occasionally catch someone off guard, but most of the time you're just handing them easy points.

Goes back to the saturation thing. Leman Russ tanks work because in a 2k game you'll have two other AV14 vehicles and possibly a dozen other AV12 vehicles for an opponent to have to worry about. With a Land Raider, it's the clear cut priority target.

Martel732 wrote:
Even if they never die, Land Raiders still suck That's how bad they are.

I think you're being unfair there, Most games I've had where I've failed to kill an opponent's LR for some reason (it's happened), the Land Raider has made its presence felt, if for nothing else than sitting in the middle of the board throwing an assault cannon one way and a multi-melta the other

That's not enough dakka to matter in 7th ed. Not for 250 pts.

Oh and don't forget their amazing ability to immobilize themselves because they can't take dozer blades.

 Orock wrote:
Whelp, someone on warseer has the book. And its worse than I thought.

Wraithknights clocking in under 300 points.
jetbike stupidity confirmed.
str D everywhere (thought on wraiths, you get minus 1 to the d roll, so no 6 result possible)

interesting that things like banshees and shining spears get the +3 to charge distance like skitarii have. Must be a new thing they are gonna give to alot of assault units from here on out.

That's still really useful especially vs the new necrons and their RP bonuses. Str D everywhere!

I for one plan to hide in my Av 14 bunkers (that fortress of redemption is looking pretty promising) and have an army of AV 13 things like repressors and things. (hiding the side armor of course.)

Also thinking of getting achilles land raider with possible imperial bombards. ignore cover/armor higher strength to deny any FnP on Eldar anyways. I think pask may have himself a new tank here.

 DarkLink wrote:

Land Raiders suck because basically every army has easily available means of killing them reliably. Imperials have melta, grav, and D. Eldar have melta and D. Nids have haywire. Necrons have Gauss. Tau have melta. And so on. You might occasionally catch someone off guard, but most of the time you're just handing them easy points.

Essentially, this is the problem with every expensive vehicle. MCs are just better for the points. The only vehicles that are good are the ones that do decent damage, have good mobility, and are cheap -- like BA Razorbacks or drop pods. The exception being the Sicaran.

If vehicles and MCs were brought more to parity, imperial armies would get a big bump.

So guys, what odds do you give my footslogging CSM MEQ melee list?

 Ashiraya wrote:
So guys, what odds do you give my footslogging CSM MEQ melee list?

Ha!

Or any beginner that starts with the foundations of their army being from Dark Vengence. Yeh they would lose usually with such a list - but at least they would kill SOMETHING.

 Ashiraya wrote:
So guys, what odds do you give my footslogging CSM MEQ melee list?

I'll give you turn 3 before being tabled if you're playing well.

I'll never play my 16,000 points of Eldar again

 ArmyC wrote:
I'll never play my 16,000 points of Eldar again

That's the worst part. In sure you never asked for this.

 PandaHero wrote:
What that guy says:

Yep, that's what people are missing. Even someone bringing a couple of squads of 5 bikes to a casual game will have a pretty big advantage over his opponent, point for point. THAT is the great tragedy of this, not the tournament scene. Tournaments always manage.

I couldn't care less of what new cheese people wil lbe bringing, because my opponent rarely go over board with that at my FLGS (some do, but more often then not, it's all in good fun).

The real problem I see with those Jetbike, is that it affect ANY friendly game. I'm not talking about someone spamming bikes on purpose. I'm talking about me and my friends playing games where the balance will already be screwed at the TROOP level. Where I live, we play 1 CADS with max 1 formation or 1 ally detachement, and we favorise 3-4 Troop because we think it favorise fun game. Well it won't be as fun to know that even before turn 1, the backbone of your army (the troops) can't match the power of their backbone, and by a long shot!

I have been giving my opinion on a lot of those ''imbalance'' thread. The key, IMHO, to balance, is to compare slot per slot between army, while enforcing strict rule on CADS/Ally and such.

Maybe stop playing with such ridiculous restrictions?