Kanluwen wrote: Mmm yeah, my bad. Either way it's niiiiiiiiiiiice.
Yeah right. Cause Genestealers, Bloodletters, Orks with Choppas, etc.. all really needed the nerf.
I guess Scatterbikes, GravCents, AdMech with free guns and other shooty armies aren't bothered, so that's niiiiiice
Excuse me, do we know what all models have "Grim Resolve" at this point?
Because the rule requires "Grim Resolve" in order to Overwatch at full BS.
In the current Codex, all non-vehicle Dark Angels have Grim Resolve (though so far, it only gives them stubborn). It's their "chapter tactics". Like Space Wolves get counter attack.
Man, who in their right mind would assault a unit of Black Knights attached to a Lion's Blade Strike Force? Double-tapping plasma talons at full BS would disintegrate most dedicated assault units. Cheap hordes wouldn't be as affected, but you might still shoot them out of charge range with a good volley.
But that's a chunk of points--two demi-companies plus an attached Black Knights unit/formation--you wouldn't see that except in higher point games.
the_Armyman wrote: Man, who in their right mind would assault a unit of Black Knights attached to a Lion's Blade Strike Force? Double-tapping plasma talons at full BS would disintegrate most dedicated assault units. Cheap hordes wouldn't be as affected, but you might still shoot them out of charge range with a good volley.
But that's a chunk of points--two demi-companies plus an attached Black Knights unit/formation--you wouldn't see that except in higher point games.
Only need one demi-company. And said demi-company (as well as possibly the second one) is gonna be fairly good at boltering down hordes on overwatch.
the_Armyman wrote: Man, who in their right mind would assault a unit of Black Knights attached to a Lion's Blade Strike Force? Double-tapping plasma talons at full BS would disintegrate most dedicated assault units. Cheap hordes wouldn't be as affected, but you might still shoot them out of charge range with a good volley.
But that's a chunk of points--two demi-companies plus an attached Black Knights unit/formation--you wouldn't see that except in higher point games.
Only need one demi-company. And said demi-company (as well as possibly the second one) is gonna be fairly good at boltering down hordes on overwatch.
Oh, you're right. Dang. Black Knights OP!!!1!!one!!
I would still prefer the SM version.. Obsec carries much more weight in most META's... Unless you play against Nids and Orks exclusively.. Then i would like this formation
Waaghboss Grobnub wrote: I would still prefer the SM version.. Obsec carries much more weight in most META's... Unless you play against Nids and Orks exclusively.. Then i would like this formation
I would think the normal Demi-Company will get Obj. Sec., just as it did with Space Marines.
But I agree, it isn't the most powerful thing we've seen out of GW recently. All those Ultramarine-rerolls are probably more effective at the end of the day.
But it hits the Meta very unevenly, nerfing assault armies, especially those with low armour saves (as I said Nids, Orks, Daemons, Dark Eldar, etc..), while doing absolutely nothing against shooty armies that don't charge you.
Its not super-super-Skyhammer-powerful overall, but it's absolutely devastating against a select few armies which are struggling already.
the_Armyman wrote: Man, who in their right mind would assault a unit of Black Knights attached to a Lion's Blade Strike Force? Double-tapping plasma talons at full BS would disintegrate most dedicated assault units. Cheap hordes wouldn't be as affected, but you might still shoot them out of charge range with a good volley.
But that's a chunk of points--two demi-companies plus an attached Black Knights unit/formation--you wouldn't see that except in higher point games.
Only need one demi-company. And said demi-company (as well as possibly the second one) is gonna be fairly good at boltering down hordes on overwatch.
Oh, you're right. Dang. Black Knights OP!!!1!!one!!
Except from what we've seen so far, Ravenwing Black Knights cannot be taken as an actual part of the main Decurion formation, and only the units from the formation itself get the super Overwatch.
So no, you don't (yet) get to fire full BS Overwatch with Plasma Talons.
But man, full BS Overwatch is going to make playing the likes of Daemons, Orks & 'Nids a complete crapshoot now...
Waaghboss Grobnub wrote: I would still prefer the SM version.. Obsec carries much more weight in most META's... Unless you play against Nids and Orks exclusively.. Then i would like this formation
I would think the normal Demi-Company will get Obj. Sec., just as it did with Space Marines.
But I agree, it isn't the most powerful thing we've seen out of GW recently. All those Ultramarine-rerolls are probably more effective at the end of the day.
But it hits the Meta very unevenly, nerfing assault armies, especially those with low armour saves (as I said Nids, Orks, Daemons, Dark Eldar, etc..), while doing absolutely nothing against shooty armies that don't charge you.
Its not super-super-Skyhammer-powerful overall, but it's absolutely devastating against a select few armies which are struggling already.
True enough... Orks already have it soooooooo bad. Now when they face DA players with this formation they might just pack up and leave. Getting into assault range is hard these days, and with this formation lol... your armies remnants get obliterated...
bullyboy wrote: full BS during overwatch would be ridiculous. I love my Dark Angels, but I also play Harelquins and my buddy has DAs too. Harelquins would be as good as useless vs them unless I get multiple allied CADs with Autarchs with banshee masks.
it's true that this chapter tactic does nothing for the DAs vs the more powerful armies out there, it just kicks other armies that were already on the ground in the fetal position.
DarknessEternal wrote: Full BS Overwatch is pathetically terrible compared to Objective Secured/Chapter Tactics.
Vanilla Marines get neither Objective Secured nor Chapter Tactics through the Gladius Strike Force. The GSF rule is the additional use of doctrines. That's the equivalent rule.
zgort wrote: Full BS on overwatch is CRAZY! Assault will never have a chance against it. Any news on the S.o.D.?
Sadly assaults are a arare occurence since 6th unless you fight Orks/Daemons/and some Nid lists... and even then it is rare since most wont get into assault range.... Overwatch killed some armies when it came into existence
Josey4u wrote: I'll take the trade off,,, but i saw we lost the corvus hammer as a melee weapon for characters.. My captain had one. oh well. I;ll take this!!
We never had them on captains, it's never been an option for anything other than black knights mate.
Josey4u wrote: I'll take the trade off,,, but i saw we lost the corvus hammer as a melee weapon for characters.. My captain had one. oh well. I;ll take this!!
Pretty sure corvus hammer was never an option for characters.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
axisofentropy wrote: It says Overwatch with normal ballistic skill, but are they still "Snap Shots"?
Can they fire Overwatch with Blast or Template weapons?
I'd imagine not, it's still a snap shot. The rule just improves one aspect of the snap shot rule.
Josey4u wrote: I'll take the trade off,,, but i saw we lost the corvus hammer as a melee weapon for characters.. My captain had one. oh well. I;ll take this!!
We never had them on captains, it's never been an option for anything other than black knights mate.
Yea I just double checked. you are correct . Tells you how long my army has been around... I think somewhere I changed it to the mace of redemption
Josey4u wrote: I'll take the trade off,,, but i saw we lost the corvus hammer as a melee weapon for characters.. My captain had one. oh well. I;ll take this!!
We never had them on captains, it's never been an option for anything other than black knights mate.
Yea I just double checked. you are correct . Tells you how long my army has been around... I think somewhere I changed it to the foesmiter
Thairne wrote: This is interesting.
With the leaks, you can have a Interrogator Chaplain with Mace of Redemption, Crozius and a freakin CML on its back.
Or a Librarian with a Force axe, a CML and an Assault Cannon.
DarknessEternal wrote: Full BS Overwatch is pathetically terrible compared to Objective Secured/Chapter Tactics.
Vanilla Marines get neither Objective Secured nor Chapter Tactics through the Gladius Strike Force. The GSF rule is the additional use of doctrines. That's the equivalent rule.
Does Objective Secured come from the Demi Company then?
DarknessEternal wrote: Ok then, assuming DA demicompanies get ObjSec, then full BS on overwatch is objectively worse than combat doctrines, but at least it's acceptable.
Agreed, but it has the potential to become even better overtime when they redo Orks/Tyrannids codex and put a lot of assault spam oriented formation in it.
In my close combat heavy meta full bs overwatch is amazing, I can understand in a shooting meta or a tournament that it's not great but here... It's a bloody good bonus
Waaghboss Grobnub wrote: I find it HI...FFING...LARIOUS, that not even 15 min after the pre order of the codex went up it was sold out... REALY GW? no on will pre order this CODEX (DA nerds EXCL) untill they know it aint as gakky as the last one...
That's not true. Anyone willing to pay $165 for a LE is going to buy it anyways. I pre-ordered my regular DA codex & datacards at my FLGS like, a week ago, even though I probably won't ever put together a proper DA army. I mean, I just know I'm gonna want it, so might as well go on the list. They probably sell a dozen of every book like that (various people who reserve one before preorders even go up). The store is cool though; if you don't want it, you can always decline it and it's not like you're prepaying it or anything.
But anyways, my point was just that nobody who is paying 3x the price is doing so because the codex is powerful or weak; it's because they like Dark Angels, or want to own all the codex releases in Limited Edition.
The point is that full BS overwatch is completely disgusting against assault armies, useless against anything else.
F it, I'm pre-ordering. I only need an assault squad to get the single demi bonus with the models I have. I'm not buying any Razorbacks though, I'll be living in a cardboard box in a year.
DarknessEternal wrote: Ok then, assuming DA demicompanies get ObjSec, then full BS on overwatch is objectively worse than combat doctrines, but at least it's acceptable.
It's not "acceptable," it's either gamebreakingly stupid or it's useless, it's one or the other. It'll just dig the grave deeper for assault, so it's less of a thing for DA than it is for other armies. And as far as DA, at least it's not as bad as "Stubborn," which was just always useless.
Was wondering whether to take the limited or the standard codex. I took the standard codex and took instead the new Dark Angels battleforce to boost my Ravenwing.
More bang for the buck that way that I will actually use. 200$ CAD for a book with gimmick just did not cut it even though I have the money hehe.
Thairne wrote: This is interesting.
With the leaks, you can have a Interrogator Chaplain with Mace of Redemption, Crozius and a freakin CML on its back.
Or a Librarian with a Force axe, a CML and an Assault Cannon.
What makes you assume that characters have access to Terminator Heavy Weapons?
Somehow I got 'release' confused with 'pre-order' so I got all excited for today then realised it was just the pre-order. Bollocks.
Don't forget the Legion also has the Standard of Devastation so you'll be overwatching with what, forty bolter shots to the face from a tac squad? twenty-four twin-linked bolter shots from a Ravenwing squad?
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: Don't forget the Legion also has the Standard of Devastation so you'll be overwatching with what, forty bolter shots to the face from a tac squad? twenty-four twin-linked bolter shots from a Ravenwing squad?
Terrific.
There's only a generic Sacred standard for 35 pts now - I doubt it will have such special rules.
Thairne wrote: This is interesting.
With the leaks, you can have a Interrogator Chaplain with Mace of Redemption, Crozius and a freakin CML on its back.
Or a Librarian with a Force axe, a CML and an Assault Cannon.
What makes you assume that characters have access to Terminator Heavy Weapons?
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: Don't forget the Legion also has the Standard of Devastation so you'll be overwatching with what, forty bolter shots to the face from a tac squad? twenty-four twin-linked bolter shots from a Ravenwing squad?
Terrific.
There's only a generic Sacred standard for 35 pts now - I doubt it will have such special rules.
Where did you get this information?
Like the guy going on about CMLs on Interrogator chaps?
DarknessEternal wrote: Ok then, assuming DA demicompanies get ObjSec, then full BS on overwatch is objectively worse than combat doctrines, but at least it's acceptable.
Agreed, but it has the potential to become even better overtime when they redo Orks/Tyrannids codex and put a lot of assault spam oriented formation in it.
In before redone Tyranids get an immune to Overwatch formation involving Hormagaunts.
But yeah, full BS overwatch is a bit....odd. It's pretty much the final nail in the coffin for Chaos and Orks, not so much for Tyranids (who assaults with Tyranids anyway?) and probably not so much for Dark Eldar (Battle Brother Eldar allies yo).
I'm just glad I switched to Eldar a while back. End of the day my Chaos are shelved until we see something resembling an actual book, my Tyranids are on hiatus til the urge to paint and do something with them takes me (probably if they ever get a new Codex) and my Flesh Tearers...well, kinda fizzled out because now Blood Angels are the redheaded step-chapter.
GW seems to like pushing vehicle squadrons a lot though. (Eldar, SM, DA) - between that, the inclusion of Super Heavies, the inclusion of Psychic Powers that use Apocalypse templates and formations it's like they've tried to condense down Apocalypse...which of course is making balance hell on a competitive level.
Just when we reached a state of Equilibrium they changed the alternative detachments to stacked bonus formations. (Necrons onward).
Then they brought D weapon spam. (Eldar)
Then they brought 'free' upgrades which can add a hefty amount to an army's 'point' value. (HI DOUBLE DEMI COMPANIES).
I feel sorry for tournament organisers.
The discrepancy between the last 'old style' SM codex (Blood Angels) and the new SM codex in structure is ridiculous - especially when you consider they're both 7th ed. codexes.
The discrepancy between the first 6th ed book (CSM) and the most recent 7th ed book is even greater...
Sigh. One day they'll have a consistent structure and plan for codex releases. One day we'll have an edition where, partway through a 'power' arms race DOESN'T occur.
Really hope that Ravenwing are Worth it, being that is the only DA I play. If it seems horrible or not worth it, I'll just dremel and repaint them as white scars. With funds being lower than usual, It is hard to buy more codex than normal. Just bought the SM one for my imperial fists, and now this one is needed for me to keep playing them. thats $120 more than I thought I would have had to pay to play this year for my gaming budget.
Oh, god. Looks like it has the same relics, so I hope they changed their rules, because the old relics sucked.
Belial gained an extra attack. Looks like he still sucks though. Note, he has marked for retribution and tactical precision in the old dex. The special rule that changed is they changed "Deathwing assault" to "Deathwing," whatever that means. Same excessive points too.
At least Foe Smiter went down in points, lol.
Also, lol@ the hunt being back. Starting to regret my preorder already.
Agreed, but it has the potential to become even better overtime when they redo Orks/Tyrannids codex and put a lot of assault spam oriented formation in it.
In before redone Tyranids get an immune to Overwatch formation involving Hormagaunts.
They'd literally have to. They have to at this point.
Agreed, but it has the potential to become even better overtime when they redo Orks/Tyrannids codex and put a lot of assault spam oriented formation in it.
In before redone Tyranids get an immune to Overwatch formation involving Hormagaunts.
They'd literally have to. They have to at this point.
I doubt immunity, more likely a boost to toughness or something.
DarknessEternal wrote: Ok then, assuming DA demicompanies get ObjSec, then full BS on overwatch is objectively worse than combat doctrines, but at least it's acceptable.
Agreed, but it has the potential to become even better overtime when they redo Orks/Tyrannids codex and put a lot of assault spam oriented formation in it.
In before redone Tyranids get an immune to Overwatch formation involving Hormagaunts.
But yeah, full BS overwatch is a bit....odd. It's pretty much the final nail in the coffin for Chaos and Orks, not so much for Tyranids (who assaults with Tyranids anyway?) and probably not so much for Dark Eldar (Battle Brother Eldar allies yo).
I'm just glad I switched to Eldar a while back. End of the day my Chaos are shelved until we see something resembling an actual book, my Tyranids are on hiatus til the urge to paint and do something with them takes me (probably if they ever get a new Codex) and my Flesh Tearers...well, kinda fizzled out because now Blood Angels are the redheaded step-chapter.
GW seems to like pushing vehicle squadrons a lot though. (Eldar, SM, DA) - between that, the inclusion of Super Heavies, the inclusion of Psychic Powers that use Apocalypse templates and formations it's like they've tried to condense down Apocalypse...which of course is making balance hell on a competitive level.
Just when we reached a state of Equilibrium they changed the alternative detachments to stacked bonus formations. (Necrons onward).
Then they brought D weapon spam. (Eldar)
Then they brought 'free' upgrades which can add a hefty amount to an army's 'point' value. (HI DOUBLE DEMI COMPANIES).
I feel sorry for tournament organisers.
The discrepancy between the last 'old style' SM codex (Blood Angels) and the new SM codex in structure is ridiculous - especially when you consider they're both 7th ed. codexes.
The discrepancy between the first 6th ed book (CSM) and the most recent 7th ed book is even greater...
Sigh. One day they'll have a consistent structure and plan for codex releases. One day we'll have an edition where, partway through a 'power' arms race DOESN'T occur.
Blood angels will take very little work to bring them in line with the new book, just change all the angel specific units to match the space marine one, let them use space marine formations in the interim, though that one may be a little more difficult, basically a tiny bit of effort.
They'd need one hell of a boost to toughness. You can't even get there at this point. I mean, ork boyz have AV10 open topped transports and you can only take 12 Orks. By the time you got done resolving overwatch, there'd be nothing left to fight the combat with. Then you strike at initiative 2, lol.
Don't know if these have been posted, but Dark Angels can now reduce your best unit to WS1 BS1 permanently. They can also rig your leadership test so the unit is doomed to fail it.
Now excuse me as I go off and laugh maniacally at all the ways I could horribly maul people's lists by turning their best unit into a blind cripple.
Don't know if these have been posted, but Dark Angels can now reduce your best unit to WS1 BS1 permanently. They can also rig your leadership test so the unit is doomed to fail it.
Now excuse me as I go off and laugh maniacally at all the ways I could horribly maul people's lists by turning their best unit into a blind cripple.
We could always do that with Ezekiel, especially using the conclave. But having that in access to ANY psyker is.. quite interesting.
And Mind Wipe is pretty expensive with 3 Warp Charges.... Plus Seed of Fear does not affect Leadership tests, does it?
Also, Mindworm was D3 Assault before, whereas its just assault 1 now.
Dark Angels are certainly getting some nice new toys and buffs. It's great for long-time DA players to finally get some love and be somewhere respectable on the power curve. My Tyranids will not like that full BS overwatch...
rollawaythestone wrote: Dark Angels are certainly getting some nice new toys and buffs. It's great for long-time DA players to finally get some love and be somewhere respectable on the power curve. My Tyranids will not like that full BS overwatch...
Not really, from what I'm seeing. It's certainly gonna make Tyranids and Orks worse, though. I don't see how any of this is gonna help against the new Eldar or the new Space Marines. Or Necrons. Or Tau.
Looks like Dark Angels have all the tools to wreck any army that's pre-formation pretty well. Good thing I shelved my Chaos and Imperial Guard. Also LOL'd at them having an actual psychic discipline and each Chaos god only gets 3 + Primaris. What a time to live.
:edit: It says models in Term armor can get combi weapons hahahaha feth you Chaos you suck
rollawaythestone wrote: Dark Angels are certainly getting some nice new toys and buffs. It's great for long-time DA players to finally get some love and be somewhere respectable on the power curve. My Tyranids will not like that full BS overwatch...
Well it looks like we are losing some of our good toys too, so *shrug*
Don't know if these have been posted, but Dark Angels can now reduce your best unit to WS1 BS1 permanently. They can also rig your leadership test so the unit is doomed to fail it.
Now excuse me as I go off and laugh maniacally at all the ways I could horribly maul people's lists by turning their best unit into a blind cripple.
Not best unit, It is model. A model must suffer a wound from it and survive. If it kills a model in a unit, The unit dosent get WS and BS and Leadership reduced, It specificaly states if a model suffers an unsaved wound. So I guess it is good against a multi-wound HQ or monsterous creature, But not much else..
Mind Worm nerfed actually. Trephination is just worse version of Psychick Shriek with bigger cost. New disciplines seem interesting and themed but far weaker then actual Telepathy.
Don't know if these have been posted, but Dark Angels can now reduce your best unit to WS1 BS1 permanently. They can also rig your leadership test so the unit is doomed to fail it.
Now excuse me as I go off and laugh maniacally at all the ways I could horribly maul people's lists by turning their best unit into a blind cripple.
Not best unit, It is model. A model must suffer a wound from it and survive. If it kills a model in a unit, The unit dosent get WS and BS and Leadership reduced, It specificaly states if a model suffers an unsaved wound. So I guess it is good against a multi-wound HQ or monsterous creature, But not much else..
What are you talking about? I'm talking about Mind Wipe.
Don't know if these have been posted, but Dark Angels can now reduce your best unit to WS1 BS1 permanently. They can also rig your leadership test so the unit is doomed to fail it.
Now excuse me as I go off and laugh maniacally at all the ways I could horribly maul people's lists by turning their best unit into a blind cripple.
Not best unit, It is model. A model must suffer a wound from it and survive. If it kills a model in a unit, The unit dosent get WS and BS and Leadership reduced, It specificaly states if a model suffers an unsaved wound. So I guess it is good against a multi-wound HQ or monsterous creature, But not much else..
Not Mind Worm.
Read Mind Wipe and Seed of Fear. That combo = fun times for Death Stars, though WC3 sucks.
Someone posting in the comments section of Faeit - user Alendrel:
WARLORD TRAITS 1 The Hunt: Warlord has Precision Shots and Ignores Cover
2 Courage of the First Legion: 12" Fearless bubble for DA units
3 For the Lion! Warlord and unit has Furious Charge
4 Brilliant Planning: While Warlord is on battlefield, may modify Reserve Rolls by 1 after the roll
5 Rapid Manoeuvre: +3" to Flat-Out, Turbo-boost, Run, AND CHARGE MOVES
6 Hold At All Costs: Warlord and unit has FnP within 3" of an Objective
Nephilim - Blacksword missiles are now S7 AP3 and Missile Lock allows reroll misses with One-Use weapons. Avenger bolt cannon unchanged.
Dark Talon - Rift cannon now S10 AP2 and if doubles are rolled on the scatter dice the shot becomes Vortex. Stasis bomb also requires models to pass I test for unsaved wounds or be removed.
And remember that Vortex == Destroyer.
Sacred Standard is now just a single generic entry, the unit carrying it has Counterattack and Relentless, and the usual 12" Morale reroll bubble.
Interromancy powers:
Primaris - Mind Worm - WC1 focussed witch fire, 12" S6 AP2 Assault 1, Ignores Cover, if model takes an unsaved wound then -3 BS/WS/I/Ld for rest of game
1 - Seed of Fear - WC1 Maledication affecting all enemy units within 9", they take Morale, Pinning, and Fear on 3d6
3 - Aversion - WC1 Malediction 24" unit may only fire Snap Shots
4 - Malestrom of Misery - WC2 witchfire 24" S1 AP2 Assault 1 Blast always wounds on 4+
5 - Trephination - WC2 18" focussed witchfire - affected model rolls 2d6+2-Ld and takes that many wounds with no armor or cover saves
6 - Mind Wipe - WC3 24" malediction - target unit is WS1/BS1 until end of their next turn, when they have to take a Ld test, if failed effect is permanent
Automatically Appended Next Post: RW and DW Company banners are unchanged.
Deathwing rule replaces Inner Circle, grants Fearless and Hatred (CSM).
DW Knights maces of absolution now AP3, Smite is now basically a Smash attack: trade all attacks for one Sx2 AP2 attack, chosen per model, not limited use.
DW Assault is a formation rule, everything Deep Strikes in on choice of turn 2, 3, or 4 - includes Ven Dreads in Pods.
Summoned to War is a detachment rule, all units in detachment must start in Deep Strike reserve, if army has a RW Attack Squadron or Strike Force you basically choose the results of Reserve Rolls for the detachment.
Summon the DW: Formation rule, models in the formation are basically 12" teleport homers for DW units.
Ravenwing rule allows models to reroll failed Jink saves.
Speed of the Raven detachment rule: On first tirn (or second if units in reserves), units that turbo-boost or Flat Out count as Jinking but aren't forced to Snap Shot the following turn.
Ravenwing grenade launcher radshell is no longer -1T but the to-wound of 6 causes two wounds.
Sammael in Sabreclaw gets a D3+1 S4 AP2 hits sweep attack.
Land Speeder Vengeance plasma battery is now 36".
Dark Shroud's Icon of Old Caliban is Fear and Stealth to DA units within 6" and no prevents Overwatch when those units start the Assault phase with 6" of it.
Blade of Caliban no longer Unwieldy.
Relic blades in as S+2 AP1 Unwieldy Two-Handed.
Ezekiel grants +1A to models within 6" instead of the WS buff.
Power field generator gone, but Azarael's Lion Helm does affect transport he is in.
Sammael can fire both his guns now!
Azarael still gets to pick his Warlord Trait off the DA chart, also grants +1 to Seize the Initiative.
The Hammer of Caliban formation (Techmarine, a Land Raider of some flavor, and a unit of WW's, Preds, or Vinds) has to have the Techmarine start in the Raider, but the Raider is BS5 as long as he's in it. There's also a couple of "All the vehicles in the formation form one squadron but count as two units if destroyed" rules - I suspect one applies here.
I don't know if this has been covered by is Azrael a lord of war like the other named chapter masters in their own books? Also, did they get access to the storm raven?
Well Darktalon looks good enough now - like SW Helfrost.
Not sure about the Nephilim - even with S7 and rerolls its gonna be hard to deal with heavier flyers.
Against an AV12 flyer, all those missiles will deal .6 HP against a jinking flyer... basically useless.
Rad Shells look pretty bad now.
Vengeance better have some more help or a massive price drop.
The rest looks pretty kinky!
Speed of the Raven detachment rule: On first tirn (or second if units in reserves), units that turbo-boost or Flat Out count as Jinking but aren't forced to Snap Shot the following turn.
Now that is a hidden gem... Boost forward, drop in the termies RIGHT in front of the enemy, then pop a vehicle due to surviving with a 4+ with Meltas.
Speaking from someone who has been using Skitarii(which have a similar special rule), on the surface it doesn't seem great...but man when it works it's great.
The DA codex is again 46€, same as the SM codex.
And on top of it two new clampack(?) models and a battle force.
It's hardly worth the effort and the money.
Speaking from someone who has been using Skitarii(which have a similar special rule), on the surface it doesn't seem great...but man when it works it's great.
Well for now its 1 per 200 pt unit.. with rapid fire. Granted, its a blast, but that means it may scatter off and do nothing, too. Just not enough volume to be a boon. I'D rather shoot Krak Grenades and kill stuff.
Likely. But null deployment isn't a fun mechanic.
Driving jinking bikes right up to the enemy, THEN dropping in Terminators, is not only extremely fluffy, but also fun!
All the changes so far are not only mechanically sound, but also very in lore.
SMash for Knights? You can really see them going Kamehameha, with their maces rised, energy crackling and building up before they go BOOM!
I'm happy and I know it, therefore I clap my hands!
I'm still really worried about the AA department. Nephilims currently don't cut it either.
Look at the Lion's Blade. That's about as fluffy and themey as it gets... All we would need now is the Changeling that "gifts" Teleport Homers to Fallen
I don't think this person (Alendrel on Faeit) actually has the book. They are getting leaks from the digital book or something... because they said they had no clue about Azrael being a LoW.
Unless its a Heldrake. A 5+ is good enough and give me the utmost trouble, especially with a Lion's blade detachment...
And I can'T even take a Fire Raptor to help!
And yes, Alendrel said he was using the glossary that was wrongly available. This is where the leaks come from.
I'm really wanting to know where Black Knights or Ravenwing command squads fit in all of this. They are hands down my favorite unit, and it looks like they are CAD only atm :(
Let the speculation and price gouging begin! All of you that ordered multiples of the LE stuff better sell them soon before GW replaces it in 1-2 years and it becomes almost worthless!
Wow, I'm glad I got my LE codex at 12:00 noon when it was first posted on their website! I honestly don't think that codex will ever sell at $800... the 36 watchers are probably codex owners or curious folk trying to see if it will ever sell. I did see one sell overseas on ebay for $300. $300 = probably reasonable, $800 = dreaming hobby gouger. Although the buyer for that $300 book must have been from overseas too as the codex was still available on the US website when that book was bought!
No more DWA on turn 1!!!! boo
No more Belial precision Deep Strike? boo
Everything else - yay!!!
Better ravenwing! More optioned Deathwing! It also seems that green wing is better too! And Grav weapons!!! So much win
CrashGordon94 wrote: Mace of Absolution sounds better, sounds like DW Knights will be a real force to be reckoned with!
Any word on Azrael/Belial/Sammy's FOC moving being gone or staying?
It's gone, but there are alternate Detachments allowing for similar things--which seemingly don't require you to field the special character.
rollawaythestone wrote:FOC changing is a thing of the past. Expect formations to be the way you get significant changes to your army composition.
Well that's a shame. Mostly because I've heard of Deathwing and Ravenwing formations but not a DeathRaven combo one, and I'd honestly rather just use the traditional warped CAD than fool around with this specialty formation nonsense.
I suppose if they're flexible enough it'll be fine.
Here's another pointless rule for you: Interrogator Chaplain gained fear.
It's useless but at least it's fluffy.
I am glad that I still have the Interrogator-Chaplain Seraphicus model from the LE Dark Vengeance, because this new one has a power fist for some completely nonsensical reason.
TedNugent wrote: Here's another pointless rule for you: Interrogator Chaplain gained fear.
It's useless but at least it's fluffy.
I am glad that I still have the Interrogator-Chaplain Seraphicus model from the LE Dark Vengeance, because this new one has a power fist for some completely nonsensical reason.
Those models are selling for $35-40 on ebay right now. I may have found my second chance to unload my extras
Another not so obvious big improvement was the blade of caliban not being unwieldly. +1 str and the +1ws from the company champ that is the same price as a power sword for a regular guy is pretty good. Plus being a character.
The sacred standard granting relentless to a drop podding squad of company vets with grav weapons will be a pricey venture but it can delete whole units. Think of what that can do do a centurian star.
*sigh*, Looks like my Daemons & Chaos Marine allies have been firmly relegated back to the Shelf of Woes... Overwatch at full BS literally kills off my allied CSM assaulters, Deathwing Termies look like they're now Chaos Termies +10, and DA's (like Vanillas and Eldar) can utterly gimp my poor Tzeentchian psychics.
Maybe Chaos will get some love before 100th edition, though I highly doubt it...
Guess I'll go ahead with building the small pile of Black Templars I've been slowly collecting up... oh wait, they're assault based too.
I would relax considering we still have not seen anything about DA Termies that makes them look good.
At least in the last book they had TL weapons on the turn they arrived and split fire, but even then, unlike Chaos Terminators, they could not take combi-weapons like combi meltas and they were extremely overpriced on a point-per-model basis. So basically you got TL storm bolters for 10PPM over Chaos Terms.
I preordered the LE codex (probably not a good use of my money at this point but hey!). I just hope that I don't have to go CAD to use my Nephy now since I don't want to buy 2 more flyers at this point. Maybe the Ravenwing strike force can take just 1 (fingers crossed). Love all the other cool stuff we're gonna get, I'm almost having a religious experience just reading about it!
TedNugent wrote: I would relax considering we still have not seen anything about DA Termies that makes them look good.
At least in the last book they had TL weapons on the turn they arrived and split fire, but even then, unlike Chaos Terminators, they could not take combi-weapons like combi meltas and they were extremely overpriced on a point-per-model basis. So basically you got TL storm bolters for 10PPM over Chaos Terms.
I would have taken the Chaos Terms last dex TBH.
Deathwing get 100% safe & precision Deep Strike. Chaos for some stupid reason get zilch.
TedNugent wrote: I would relax considering we still have not seen anything about DA Termies that makes them look good.
At least in the last book they had TL weapons on the turn they arrived and split fire, but even then, unlike Chaos Terminators, they could not take combi-weapons like combi meltas and they were extremely overpriced on a point-per-model basis. So basically you got TL storm bolters for 10PPM over Chaos Terms.
I would have taken the Chaos Terms last dex TBH.
Deathwing get 100% safe & precision Deep Strike. Chaos for some stupid reason get zilch.
Deep strike is never safe unless you get to alpha strike with a considerable amount of firepower. The jury's still out on that.
Termies are expensive as hell, and if you read the actual rules, they only get precise deep strike IF they have a model on the board at the start of the turn within 12" of that model from the same formation. And that's if you follow the formation rules, so that's neither free nor without restriction. If you have to model on the board at the start of the turn, first question is, how do you get it where you want the Termies on turn 2, and second question is, how is it going to survive when it's the only thing on the board?
Without a solid points drop RW will still be susceptible to getting tabled by cover ignoring low ap firepower that makes them near unplayable right now. So cool combo but on its own wouldn't amount to much in making RW a good army.
Or at least 2+ cover saves have never saved me from no cover pie plates from tau and heldrakes gutting my army.
Interromancy is a pretty interesting mix of crap and amazing:
1. Seed of Fear: 3d6 morale/fear/pinning in a 9" radius? Renegades and Heretics as well as IG are so boned 2. Righteous Repugnance: What's that again? My Black Knights have eight attacks each. 2 Base + 1 CCW + 2 Rage + 1 Chapter Banner + 1 Ezekiel + HOW.
3. Aversion: Warp Charge 1, 24" Range. Your Vindicator Formation just lost the ability to fire everything but their storm bolters.
4. Maelstrom of Misery: A bit crap.
5. Trephination: Like a bad Psychic Shriek.
6. Mind Wipe: The latest in anti-deathstar technology. WC 3 is harsh compared to it though.
Aversion is the best skill in the discipline, followed by Mind Wipe. Seed and Repugnance are good, Treph and Maelstrom awful.
BrotherGecko wrote: Without a solid points drop RW will still be susceptible to getting tabled by cover ignoring low ap firepower that makes them near unplayable right now. So cool combo but on its own wouldn't amount to much in making RW a good army.
Or at least 2+ cover saves have never saved me from no cover pie plates from tau and heldrakes gutting my army.
You've got to be kidding, right.
2+ cover saves, maybe;
2+ rerollable cover saves? Your enemy had better PRAY he rolls that Perfect Timing or it's going to be wipe after wipe.
Unlike Fortune a conveniently placed Culexus doesn't negate this ability.
Some armies don't even have access to Ignores Cover tech (Orks, Necrons).
When's the last time you even saw a Helldrake on a table? After their nerf simple placement from a 2+ save model completely nullifies their threat.
Tau... their Ignores Cover mostly comes from a single model who can only join either battlesuits or Broadsides, or fragile Markerlights, both of which can be easily neutralised by a skyhammer drop, or some Interromancy (of which against they have no defence.)
Ravenwing got some insane buffs.
I play assault Ravenwing, for the most part; my last 1850 list was mostly 20 Black Knights and a Darkshroud. Now it's going to be Black Knight deathstar with Conclave support.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Welp, forgot about the ol' ministorum.
I don't see him being distributed efficiently outside of Conscript blobs though. I don't see much IG these days anyway, RW has traditionally been good against them.
So, is buying an assault squad and a craptain worth BS4 overwatch
Leaning to no
Amusing things I'm reading elsewhere
Some guy on TG wrote:Here, read it and weep it. I'm checking the leaks and while some of the things are nice most of things related to my Deathwing army piss me off.
I need a moment to fething calm down.
A guy on TG wrote:Someone explain to me why Stubborn is good when SM already have ATSNKF?
Why is stubborn good at all?
Some guy on Bolter and Chainsword wrote:*Spits coffee*
wait you guys pay 8 mb for a power sword thats not guarenteed to actually give benefits. I'm....I'm so sorry. I'm surprised it doesnt give monster hunter to the bearer at all. Thats a shame. Though you guys probalby wont need it since most units will be dead before they reach you anyways
stubborn is not all crap. For my harlequins, it pretty much negates my hallucinogen grenade launcher and death jester rules. And since you are not so easily pinned, full BS on overwatch.
What are the stats for the monster hunter ? People are saying it's the same and I find that hard to believe, and is the mace of redemption really gone? I always used that.
Formosa wrote: What are the stats for the monster hunter ? People are saying it's the same and I find that hard to believe, and is the mace of redemption really gone? I always used that.
Also if you need centurions, you can always take Ultramarines as allies and paint them Green. Not that big of a loss considering what we've already been given.
I'm gonna use sacred standard with my 2 Devastator squads.
Won't use Lion's Blade, no point. Can't overwatch with heavy weaps. Let's see how you Spacenoids like my walking Devastator squids of doom 6 inches of death a turn, moving towards you.
TedNugent wrote: I'm gonna use sacred standard with my 2 Devastator squads.
Won't use Lion's Blade, no point. Can't overwatch with heavy weaps. Let's see how you Spacenoids like my walking Devastator squids of doom 6 inches of death a turn, moving towards you.
Sacred standard only gives relentless to the unit it is in. Naturally, the Dark Angels get bike and terminator command squads.
Wp GW.
Also, it's a pity for the dark angel players that Seed Of Fear doesn't stack with Mind Wipe. however, mind wipe will be a good way to get me to chuck all of my deny dice at something; same with aversion.
Seed effecting Ld tests for Wipe would be OP as hell, dice permitting it would allow them to very effectively shut down a unit's damage output for the entire game per turn (or multiples if they took several Psykers and they all managed to get Wipe and Seed).
TedNugent wrote: I'm gonna use sacred standard with my 2 Devastator squads.
Won't use Lion's Blade, no point. Can't overwatch with heavy weaps. Let's see how you Spacenoids like my walking Devastator squids of doom 6 inches of death a turn, moving towards you.
Sacred standard only gives relentless to the unit it is in. Naturally, the Dark Angels get bike and terminator command squads.
Wp GW.
Also, it's a pity for the dark angel players that Seed Of Fear doesn't stack with Mind Wipe. however, mind wipe will be a good way to get me to chuck all of my deny dice at something; same with aversion.
Quite simply, run the lions blade, take azreal, take green wing command squad+ banner, enjoy.
The green wing command squad that can only take special weapons that get to move and shoot anyways? I guess in a pod with grav guns might hose one thing down before dying horribly.
Grim Resolve gives BS2 on Overwatch and Stubborn.
Dark Angels are the Overwatch marines in the edition of shooting Death Stars. I guess space wolves (wolf stars) will really hate them with their mind wipes and then full BS overwatch. Of course, from the looks of it, the Lions Blade detachment hasn't really got anything that makes it worth taking over a CAD - at least the gladius bonuses help you outside of those few times someone tried to charge you. Well, I guess being able to take one scout squad for a battle company is a bit better for making the company to begin with. 110 points you can use to buy more razorback guns with.
Smite being to trade all of each models attacks for one at initiative power fist attack is also funny. Guess Deathwing Knights losing immediately to storm shield/thunder hammer terminators for more points is wonderful. Might be good if they made DWK s5 base, but I doubt it. I guess they will ruin Xenos days with their power maces and storm shields, though...
1, command squad + azreal in a rhino with areal. Rhino has a 4++ if rumours true (liom helm working on vehicles.)
Giive em banner and grav guns, now you can take them as part of lions blade, you hope out blast something, then dare them to charge you. (As the rhino can easy move to block LoS and pop smoke.
DWK I like and dislike. They are ap3 power.maces, which is nice, but the sheer threat is gone
I'll be pretty sad if they remove first turn Deep Strike from Deathwing, considering I just built an army based on it not two months ago. Not even that strong, sadly.
Flail of the Unforgiven is +2S AP3 Melee, Concussive, Fleshbane
The Mace of Absolution is +2S AP3 Melee, Concussive, Smite.
Can anyone confirm this? I have not played with Ravenwing since I first started collecting them but I could swear the "Combat Squad" was for 6 Bikes, 1 Attack Bike and a Landspeeder.
The rule in the new codex is Ravenwing Bike Squads full strength include 7 models. 6 bikes and an attack bike. They can split up in 2 group of 3 and the attack bike is alone.
Seems basically the same with the exception of the "free" Land Speeder you could take.
Also, I struggle to find a use for Deathwing Knights.. Ap3 at I is good, but the new smite strikes me as odd... What are they supposed to kill with that?
Thairne wrote: Seems basically the same with the exception of the "free" Land Speeder you could take.
Also, I struggle to find a use for Deathwing Knights.. Ap3 at I is good, but the new smite strikes me as odd... What are they supposed to kill with that?
Monstrous Creatures, vehicles They will still be decent vs a Wraithknight, just not kill it in one round. And at least they can now pick and choose when to use it instead of it being all or none.
WIth 5 attacks at best? I dunno... 5 S8 AP2 attacks are nothing to write home about, although at I4. 10-15 at I1 get stuff done in one round.
Feels more like a clutch than a feature
Deathwing Knights can now be podded in for a turn 2 charge, which vastly improves their utility. Ap3 vs Ap4 means they're pretty decent at smashing MEQ face, i.e. Gladius Strike Forces.
Fleshbane on the Flail means they can take a WK or Tyranid MC without much trouble in CC, although how they would get into combat with the WK I have no clue.
With Conclave or Ezekiel giving them +1 Attack they can deathstar up to be an acceptable Tier 2 backfield disruption unit, although I'm fairly certain they will be a priority target and get vaporised the turn they drop 9 games out of 10.
They're pretty decent against Skyhammer, all told. Though Black Knights are still the better choice.
Asmodai Asmodean wrote: Deathwing Knights can now be podded in for a turn 2 charge, which vastly improves their utility. Ap3 vs Ap4 means they're pretty decent at smashing MEQ face, i.e. Gladius Strike Forces.
Fleshbane on the Flail means they can take a WK or Tyranid MC without much trouble in CC, although how they would get into combat with the WK I have no clue.
With Conclave or Ezekiel giving them +1 Attack they can deathstar up to be an acceptable Tier 2 backfield disruption unit, although I'm fairly certain they will be a priority target and get vaporised the turn they drop 9 games out of 10.
They're pretty decent against Skyhammer, all told. Though Black Knights are still the better choice.
Deathwing Knights can DWA turn one and charge turn two in the current edition, and do it without paying an extra 35 points. In the end its all going to come down to point cost, smite is now just a situationally nice to have ability and AP 3 is a buff that the unit as a whole a lot better. We have to see how the other rules pan out with their point cost.
Black Knights being a better choice, I sure as hell hope so, but the only thing I've read on Black Knights is a nerf to their grenade launcher. They need a serious point reduction and no other nerfs to be seriously viable.
Did a quick scan for detachment, formation or squadron rules description from the glossary. Lots of Deep Strike turn 2+, Reserve and Overwatch.
Spoiler:
Fire Discipline Unless they are jinking. All models in the formation have Grim Resolve rule count as BS 3 instead of BS 2 when they shoot in overwatch.
Attack Squadron If Ravenwing Land Speeder or Vengeance from this formation scores one of more hit in the shooting phase againts an enemy unit. All model from this formation's Ravenwing Bike Squad, Ravenwing Attack Bike Squad add 1 to their BS when shooting at the same target for the rest of the phase.
Capture Run When making a Bombing Run with stasis bomb of this formation's Ravenwing dark Talon, do not rol for scatter; stasis bomb hits automatically. Enemy model that suffer an unsaved Wound from the stasis bomb must roll 2 dice and pick the highest result when taking Initiative Test to see if they are removed as casualty. In VP game Slay The Warlord secondary obj. is worth D3 additional point if the enemy Warlord was removed as a casualty as a result of Capture Run.
Company Support If a Lion's Blade Strike Force includes 2 Battle Demi-Companies. Any unit from Battle Company that has the option to take Rhino, Razorback or Drop pod may do so for free. *must pay for additional upgrades and options as normal
Deathwing Assault All unit must be placed in Deep Strike Reserve. Make secret note after determining Warlord Traits. Deathwing Redemption Force in your army to arrive your turn 2,3 or 4. All units in the formation arrive at the start of the chosen turn. Venerable in Drop Pod automatically arrives at the start of the chosen turn, and ignore normal rules that determine when a Drop Pod arrives.
Deathwing A model with this special rule has the Fearless and Hatred (Chaos Space Marine) special rule.
Fighter Escort Make a single roll for this entire Formation during reserve rolls. You can re-roll. On a successful Reserve Roll, all of the units in this Formation arrive from Reserve.
First Huntsman If this detachment is your primary Detachment, you can reroll the result when rolling on the Dark Angels Warlord Traits table.
First Knight of Caliban If this detachment is your primary Detachment, you can reroll the result when rolling on the Dark Angels Warlord Traits table.
Grim Resolve Stubborn and unless Jinking, count their BS as 2 when firing Overwatch.
Hammer the Heretics This Formation's Techmarine begin the game embarked upon this formation Land Raider/Crusader/Redeemer. While the Techmarine from this formation is embarked upon the Transport vehicle from this formation, that vehicle has BS increased to 5.
Killshot While this unit includes 3 Predators, all Predators have the Monster Hunter and Tank Hunter special rule.
Linebreaker Bombardment While this unit includes 3 Vindicators that can all fire their demolisher cannons, the unit can fire a single Linebreaker Bombardment instead of firing normally. Nominate one model in the unit as the firer. The firer's demolisher cannon changes its type from Large Blast to Apocalyptic Blast and gains Ignores Cover special rule.
Might of the Lion All vehicles in this formation must form a single vehicle squadron. Count as 2 units when calculating VP if it's completely destroyed.
Ravenshield When an enemy unit declares a charge against a friendly unit with the Ravenwing special rule, Models in this formation within 24" of that friendly unit can choose to fire Overwatch against the charging unit. (Even if the vehicle cannot normally fire overwatch). Templace Weapons can only use the Wall of Death special rule if they are within 6" of the friendly unit. Units can only still Overwatch once per turn.
Ravenwing Re-roll failed cover saves when it jinks
Speed of the Raven During first turn (or second if the unit in this Detachment were placed in Reserve), any units from this Detachment that Turbo-boost or move Flat Out count as Jinking until next turn. However, units from this detachment that do so can still fire their guns normally in your next turn; they do not have to fire Snap Shots.
Strike as One All units in the detachment must either be placed in Reserve or deplyed as normal. If placed in Reserve, all units in this Detachment automatically arrive at the start of your second turn.
Summon the Deathwing Friendly units composed entirely of models with the Deathwing special rule do not scatter when they deep strike. As long as the first model is placed within 12" of a model from this Formation. A model from this Formation must have been on the battlefield at the start of the turn for it to work.
Summoned to War All units in this detachment must begin the game in Deep Strike Reserve. If your army includes a Ravenwing Attack Squadron or Ravenwing Strike Force, you can choose to automaticlly pass or fail any reserve rolls you make for units in this Detachment; there is no need to roll.
Support Squadron All vehicles in this Formation must form a single Vehicle Squadron. Count as 2 units when calculating VP if it's completely destroyed.
Suppressive Bombardment Whilst this unit include 3 Whirlwinds, each model's Whirlwind Multiple Missile Launcher has the Pinning and Shred special rules.
Supreme Fire Discipline Unless Jinking, all models in this formation that have the Grim Resolve special rule fire Overwatch using their normal Ballistic Skill characteristic.
Take the fight to the enemy Units from this Formation can either shoot and then run, or run and then shoot, in the shooting phase of the turn they arrive by Deep Strike.
Anti-grav Upwash While it include at least 3 Ravewning Land Speeder, it can move an additional 6" when mvoing Flat Out.
I hope terminator point cost are lower because from the Terminator Weapons List
Spoiler:
Replace storm bolter with one of the following:
Combi-flamer 5pts
Combi-Melta 5pts
Combi-Plasma 5pts
Lightning Claw 10pts
Thunder Hammer 25pts
Replace power weapon with one of the following
Lightning claw 5 pts
Storm Shield 5 pts
Power Fist 10 pts
Chainfist 15 pts
Thunder Hammer 15pts
Nothing from the eBook preview or the glossary seem to indicated that you can't do it. So I guess you could. Don't take my word for it though... Costlyyyyyyyyy but worth it for the look.
I think people are misconstruing the Terminator Weapons and Terminator Heavy Weapons for what -any- Terminator can get. It's my understanding from what I've seen that these entries are specifically referenced by the unit entry. So, characters in Terminator Armor will get to choose from the Terminator Weapons list (but I imagine that weapon combos for Terminator Squads will be fixed). Similarly, the Terminator Heavy Weapon entries will be referenced in the Terminator Squad entry with something along the lines of "One Terminator may replace his stormbolter with a weapon chosen from the Terminator Heavy Weapons list." So, no we won't be seeing Terminator Librarians with CMLs or Assault Cannons. I give that a "That's ridiculous" and an "I wish!" in equal measures.
Guys, open up the old book. Go to page 91. It says "Terminator weapons: A model wearing Terminator Armour can replace his storm bolter with one of the following: combi-flamer, -melta, or -plasma."
Go to Company Master entry on page 93. "A Company Master in Terminator Armour may take items from the Terminator Weapons [...] sections of the wargear list."
Deathwing Command squad - no such verbiage. Deathwing Terminator Squad, no such verbiage.
Sorry, you can't take any of that wargear on a baseline squad, or MAYBE you might be able to take it on a sergeant, but as I said, the current dex has the exact same verbiage in the wargear entry but your squads had no access to it. Only ICs in the HQ list.
By the way, the 7th ed SM codex is exactly the same way.
But all this rules, formations and detachments... I will need so many new models. Well played GW. Well played.
marines have it, and I have already playtested it ( i own 3 old vindicators) and it is completely worthless for 360pts. Seriously, it's not as giood as you'd think, the blast really isnt that much larger to matter and your only getting single hits on things like MC's and vehicles with short range on an unwieldy tank unit that gets in the way.
But all this rules, formations and detachments... I will need so many new models. Well played GW. Well played.
marines have it, and I have already playtested it ( i own 3 old vindicators) and it is completely worthless for 360pts. Seriously, it's not as giood as you'd think, the blast really isnt that much larger to matter and your only getting single hits on things like MC's and vehicles with short range on an unwieldy tank unit that gets in the way.
Good bye scatter bikes...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Or. In other words if you are shooting it at MCs or lone non dangerous vehicles you're using it wrong
Could always just fire the 3 str10 blasts at mc or mc units, strip 3+ wounds off depending how many you hit, for scatter bikes and bigger units, drop the large pie plate
The problem is all they have to do is kill a single vindicator, and the unit can't fire the big blast anymore. That's not exactly a difficult proposition.
But all this rules, formations and detachments... I will need so many new models. Well played GW. Well played.
marines have it, and I have already playtested it ( i own 3 old vindicators) and it is completely worthless for 360pts. Seriously, it's not as giood as you'd think, the blast really isnt that much larger to matter and your only getting single hits on things like MC's and vehicles with short range on an unwieldy tank unit that gets in the way.
Good bye scatter bikes...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Or. In other words if you are shooting it at MCs or lone non dangerous vehicles you're using it wrong
This is a terrible unit. We have played it too; it's junk. You're actually better off playing the 3 tanks separately and getting 3 large blasts than to cluster the 3 tanks together, MAYBE get into range for one 10" blast, before they're wiped off the board.
Vindicators suck because they have to get way too close to do any damage; they're guaranteed to be destroyed the next turn if they can even get there.
Edit: if your jetbikes are killed by a cluster of 3 vindicators, you are doing something really, really wrong
Edit#2: if you let 3 tanks crawl up to a 24" range when you know they can do a ka-boom, you're doing something really, really wrong
We've known that for a while. The problem is that they are extremely costly compared to vanilla. You're better off sticking to allies to bring TH/SS than equip Dark Angels with them. Only one truly worth sticking them on is Belial.
Thairne wrote: Seems basically the same with the exception of the "free" Land Speeder you could take.
Also, I struggle to find a use for Deathwing Knights.. Ap3 at I is good, but the new smite strikes me as odd... What are they supposed to kill with that?
Monstrous Creatures, vehicles They will still be decent vs a Wraithknight, just not kill it in one round. And at least they can now pick and choose when to use it instead of it being all or none.
A S8 AP2 weapon already exists tho.. and terminators can already take it but get 2A instead of 1 smash attack. I still don't see any use for terminators with AP3 weapons. Is AP3 a problem you need terminators to solve for you? Granted, it's better than AP4 yet that's not much of a reason to ever use them.
While I have never personally liked the reliance on the Standard of Devastation to be a force multiplier for RW, I wonder if there is anything to fill its loss. Rerolling cover saves will certainly help survivability, what do we have to enhance offense? I'm hoping for a overall price reduction in RW to make up the reduction in bolter firepower.
But all this rules, formations and detachments... I will need so many new models. Well played GW. Well played.
marines have it, and I have already playtested it ( i own 3 old vindicators) and it is completely worthless for 360pts. Seriously, it's not as giood as you'd think, the blast really isnt that much larger to matter and your only getting single hits on things like MC's and vehicles with short range on an unwieldy tank unit that gets in the way.
Good bye scatter bikes...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Or. In other words if you are shooting it at MCs or lone non dangerous vehicles you're using it wrong
This is a terrible unit. We have played it too; it's junk. You're actually better off playing the 3 tanks separately and getting 3 large blasts than to cluster the 3 tanks together, MAYBE get into range for one 10" blast, before they're wiped off the board.
Vindicators suck because they have to get way too close to do any damage; they're guaranteed to be destroyed the next turn if they can even get there.
Edit: if your jetbikes are killed by a cluster of 3 vindicators, you are doing something really, really wrong
Edit#2: if you let 3 tanks crawl up to a 24" range when you know they can do a ka-boom, you're doing something really, really wrong
Field 3 Vindicators with Laser Destroyers instead That's a lot more exciting!
BrotherGecko wrote: While I have never personally liked the reliance on the Standard of Devastation to be a force multiplier for RW, I wonder if there is anything to fill its loss. Rerolling cover saves will certainly help survivability, what do we have to enhance offense? I'm hoping for a overall price reduction in RW to make up the reduction in bolter firepower.
When I look at the DA 6th codex, it says that each 3 man Ravenwing squad can take 2 special weapons. They now have access to Grav, which means 2/3 of your RW attack bikes could be using grav, which wouldn't be affected by standard of dev. So rather than using, what, 2/3 Salvo, you'd now have 2/3 Grav times two per squad with no overhead/liability from the banner.
Moreover, when I look at the standard of devastation, you had to put it on a RW command squad, which last I checked all had TL plasma guns and therefore did not benefit from the standard itself.
And if you really have a problem with firepower, the Black Knights will still be there, and they had zero problem with firepower seeing as each one carried a TL Plasmagun, and further each one had a bolt pistol and a Corvus hammer with 2 base attacks, for one I10 S4 impact autohit plus 4 S5 rending attacks on the charge. So you open with 2 TL plasma gun attacks then follow it up with a charge with their considerable melee attacks.
And since there's no FOC switching, there's not even really a reason to take an attack squad. Unless the formation benefits outweigh the restrictions of the formation.
Can you exclusively use black knights in a RW force now?
Not sure how effective a heavy black knight force is. They always seem to look amazing on paper but at 5 man they tend to bounce in CC against other CC units. Plus you would be pretty light on Anti-tank.
So we don't know if their even worth taking or if a RW force has access to them or even if a RW force even really exists?
Do we know if RW squads have access to grav or is it assumed because it is present elsewhere in the book. If you go heavy grav wouldn't you then be left to fishing for 6s on the anti-tank front? Seems like we would just be trading lots of short range anti-tank for mid range anti TEQ/MC/GMC (which was needed). The loss of SoD means you would need to go heavy grav to make up loss of weight of fire but at the expense of being good at anti tank and anti infantry.
If the Ravenwing rule confers a reroll on cover saves, did we lose scout?
Do we know if black knights have skilled rider? We know that the grenade launcher is weaker which is a hit to black knight CC.
I guess what I'm getting at, is are we going to see a net gain in power/playability for RW forces or just a shuffle in power/playability.
BrotherGecko wrote: So we don't know if their even worth taking or if a RW force has access to them or even if a RW force even really exists?
Do we know if RW squads have access to grav or is it assumed because it is present elsewhere in the book. If you go heavy grav wouldn't you then be left to fishing for 6s on the anti-tank front? Seems like we would just be trading lots of short range anti-tank for mid range anti TEQ/MC/GMC (which was needed). The loss of SoD means you would need to go heavy grav to make up loss of weight of fire but at the expense of being good at anti tank and anti infantry.
If the Ravenwing rule confers a reroll on cover saves, did we lose scout?
Do we know if black knights have skilled rider? We know that the grenade launcher is weaker which is a hit to black knight CC.
I guess what I'm getting at, is are we going to see a net gain in power/playability for RW forces or just a shuffle in power/playability.
Corvus Hammers and Rad/Stasis launchers are in the codex so yes, Black Knights are still around (they have a kit after all).
If charging the BKs usually fire Stasis for -1 init
Rerolls on cover saves is an insane buff considering Sammael can join them for a +3 movement and charge buff and they can get a stealth/shrouded source very easily from Conclave bike librarians or Darkshrouds. If you've ever fought a fortuned Seer council with Baron having a rerollable 2++ you know how obnoxious it is; Now everyone in the unit has it too!
If running BKs you should always have an allied Chapter Master alongside to provide tanking and high str ap2 attacks.
Grav is probably going to replace plasma on the bikers; the Loss of SoD is keenly felt, but it was definitely quite gimmicky. It was difficult keeping the standard bearer alive against a competent opponent though, and SoD armies weren't really that effective overall in the meta- shooting lots of bolters is great, but no tier-1 army is weak against that.
I sure hope RWBK are still in the book I bought 4 boxes of them lol.
Did stasis stay the same? Honestly I didn't like the idea of a blast weapon that only affects those that are under it with a status effect. It always seemed too risky with scatter. I favored -1 T for the wound potential.
Right now I think its a assumption/wishlist for grav RW. Though I would accept their addition (even if I'm buying new models).
I suppose we are also assuming Corvus hammers are the same too. Which I don't have faith in, as DWKs maces changed for the arguable worse.
Just because we have stats for the hammer and grenades doesn't mean we can still take units of Black Knights. Black Knights may have been relegated to command squad only... There's a chance they wont be a FA choice at all.
Given my history with this chapter and the fact I bought, built and painted 18 Black Knights, I can so see them getting removed from the book.
Corny wrote: Just because we have stats for the hammer and grenades doesn't mean we can still take units of Black Knights. Black Knights may have been relegated to command squad only... There's a chance they wont be a FA choice at all.
Given my history with this chapter and the fact I bought, built and painted 18 Black Knights, I can so see them getting removed from the book.
Ravenwing Command Squad are Black Knights, just with a different title.
It's a proven fact that GW has yet to discontinue a unit with an existing dual-kit.
Black Knights are still on the shelves and even in the new boxed set. Why would you think they will be removed from the codex?
but with all the changes to Ravenwing, the playstyle may be fundamentally different so I'm not too worried about small changes to the units themselves.
Most of it is stuff we've already heard here. A few pieces are new.
Deathwing Knights are AP3 base. Smite changed to basically a smash attack, convert all attacks to 1 str X2 ap 2 attack, but no longer one use only. Knight Masters Flail gained fleshbane.
All Ravenwing units reroll failed jink saves. That's all bikes, speeders, and jets
Terminators down 20 points for the squad. Sergeants can now take lightning claws or th/ss.
Ravenwing bikers down 2 points, 25 each now
Black Knights are down 2 points, 40 each now
Rad grenades nerfed. No longer reduce T by 1. The cause 2 wounds on a wound roll of 6 regardless of toughness.
Darkshroud now has 3 hull points. Assault cannon upgrade cost reduced by a melta bomb. Icon
of old caliban now grants stealth and fear to all units within 6 inches. In addition, if a friendly unit declares a charge within 6 inches of a Darkshroud, they cannot be overwatched
Vengeance is now 120. Also given 3 hull points. Assault cannon upgrade reduced by a melta bomb. Plasma Storm Battery is now 36" range.
Nephilim was given missile lock back. Blacksword missiles are now str 7 AP 3. Costs 170 points
Dark Talons rift cannon is now str 10 ap 2 blind blast. On a scatter roll of any double, it gains the vortex rule. Stasis bomb has the same effect as before. In addition, models hit by it must pass an initiative test or be removed from play. Cost is 160.
With regard to the DWK changes, "basically smash" leaves a lot open to interpretation...
Does it happen at initiative or I1?
Does it re-roll armor penetration?
Does it use the models base strength or S+2 when determining the x2 strength.
So much room for awesome, meh, or head scratching mediocrity..
AP3 is a nice, welcome, and needed change.
Fleshbane helps in the MC front, but he's no better than a krak grenade x 3 vs vehicles. Please let the Knight Master take melta bombs!
Bikes are still overcosted, both in the RW and the BK department...why are the regular bikes 4 more points than their vanilla counter parts?!?!
Brillow80 wrote: With regard to the DWK changes, "basically smash" leaves a lot open to interpretation...
Does it happen at initiative or I1?
Does it re-roll armor penetration?
Does it use the models base strength or S+2 when determining the x2 strength.
So much room for awesome, meh, or head scratching mediocrity..
AP3 is a nice, welcome, and needed change.
Fleshbane helps in the MC front, but he's no better than a krak grenade x 3 vs vehicles. Please let the Knight Master take melta bombs!
Bikes are still overcosted, both in the RW and the BK department...why are the regular bikes 4 more points than their vanilla counter parts?!?!
Because they get re-roll jink, stock???
Also, terminators are still 25pts more than C:SM it seems, worried we will be losing TL on first turn as well...
Also, terminators are still 25pts more than C:SM it seems, worried we will be losing TL on first turn as well...
Actually, now that I think about it...looking at their profile it might have been the stock Hit-and-Run, Teleport Homer, and Scout.
Never having fielded any terminators other than DW any cost savings is a bonus
Brillow80 wrote: Bikes are still overcosted, both in the RW and the BK department...why are the regular bikes 4 more points than their vanilla counter parts?!?!
Because they get re-roll jink, stock???
Is that really worth all that extra? I mean, White Scars get Skilled Rider, +1 S on HoW attacks, and Hit and Run for free.
Brillow80 wrote: Bikes are still overcosted, both in the RW and the BK department...why are the regular bikes 4 more points than their vanilla counter parts?!?!
Because they get re-roll jink, stock???
Is that really worth all that extra? I mean, White Scars get Skilled Rider, +1 S on HoW attacks, and Hit and Run for free.
We get hit and run stock, teleport homers, scout... Re-roll.to jink save will make us near immune to grav weapons,
We will move flat out T1, and laugh as skyhammer lists fail to remove a single unit thanks to 2+ rerollable jink T1.
1) WD says "Don't be surprised if DW assaults turn 2"
2) Leaks says that DW can deep strike at the earliest on turn 2.
So...they got some way to assault out of deep strike? Maybe if deepstriked thanks to Ravenwing?
I hope this is the reason we can't DS turn 1. so far ravenwing are looking better and deathwing are just cheaper.
also can someone please tell me why they think the dakka banner is gone. i refuse to believe it considering GW just released a transfer sheet with it on
Brillow80 wrote: Bikes are still overcosted, both in the RW and the BK department...why are the regular bikes 4 more points than their vanilla counter parts?!?!
Because they get re-roll jink, stock???
Is that really worth all that extra? I mean, White Scars get Skilled Rider, +1 S on HoW attacks, and Hit and Run for free.
We get hit and run stock, teleport homers, scout... Re-roll.to jink save will make us near immune to grav weapons,
We will move flat out T1, and laugh as skyhammer lists fail to remove a single unit thanks to 2+ rerollable jink T1.
Let's look this over, though.
Codex: Space Marines - White Scar Chapter Tactics - Space Marine Biker Costs 21 points, gets Hit and Run, Skilled Rider, +1 S on HoW attacks
Codex: Dark Angels - Ravenwing Biker Costs 25 points, gets Hit and Run, Teleport Homers, Scout, and Re-roll Jink Save
So, the value of the Hit and Run cancels each other out. Teleport Homers cost 5 points each, so depending on how many bikes you have in your squad could be valued at less than a point each to 1.67 points per model. That assumes that you're running the army in conjunction with Terminators otherwise the Teleport Homers are wasted points. Giving that the benefit of the doubt, are Scout and the Jink Re-Roll worth a little over 2 points per model? Yeah, I could agree with that. But you're paying a tax for using Terminators. And I haven't seen proof yet that DA Terminators will be that much more useful than SM Terminators.
Without buffing using a Librarian, the White Scar jink saves 2/3 of the time versus 3/4 with the Ravenwing Jink Re-Roll. Not to mention the fact that with the new C:SM Librarius Conclave, White Scars can get the same benefits of the DA Librarius Conclave and can have all their Librarians on bikes as opposed to DA needing to have Ezekiel hang out somewhere on foot.
However, the Speed of the Raven rule means you get to do this and you get to fire at full effect after jinking. Okay, that could be worth the points. Jinking with no decrease in shooting next round? I can be on board with that.
I dont know how you got 1.67 points per model when every model has a 5 point item. fair enough you will probably only use it once per squad but no matter how many die, someone still has it and if you combat squad you effectively have 2.
jokerkd wrote: I dont know how you got 1.67 points per model when every model has a 5 point item. fair enough you will probably only use it once per squad but no matter how many die, someone still has it and if you combat squad you effectively have 2.
plus formations......
Hm. Good point. I had to go back to C:SM and look at the teleport homers, you're right. I had calculated it as only one member of the squad having a teleport homer rather than all of them getting one. Still, it's a very list-dependent use of points. If you're only running RW or using RW/Greenwing (which has gotten more attractive) and not DW, then it's still points better used elsewhere.
White scars have to have their own edge to stil get people to play them, but for me it's a no brainer. black knights are the best bikes in the game imo and ravenwing have black knights
fluff wise WS are better riders. DA are promoted to RW just for asking to many questions lol
jokerkd wrote: White scars have to have their own edge to stil get people to play them, but for me it's a no brainer. black knights are the best bikes in the game imo and ravenwing have black knights
fluff wise WS are better riders. DA are promoted to RW just for asking to many questions lol
Debatable, as a chapter WS are much better riders, but the ravenwing bikers are... Very good at driving their chosen mode of transportation.
Brillow80 wrote: Bikes are still overcosted, both in the RW and the BK department...why are the regular bikes 4 more points than their vanilla counter parts?!?!
Because they get re-roll jink, stock???
Is that really worth all that extra? I mean, White Scars get Skilled Rider, +1 S on HoW attacks, and Hit and Run for free.
We get hit and run stock, teleport homers, scout... Re-roll.to jink save will make us near immune to grav weapons,
We will move flat out T1, and laugh as skyhammer lists fail to remove a single unit thanks to 2+ rerollable jink T1.
Let's look this over, though.
Codex: Space Marines - White Scar Chapter Tactics - Space Marine Biker Costs 21 points, gets Hit and Run, Skilled Rider, +1 S on HoW attacks
Codex: Dark Angels - Ravenwing Biker Costs 25 points, gets Hit and Run, Teleport Homers, Scout, and Re-roll Jink Save
So, the value of the Hit and Run cancels each other out. Teleport Homers cost 5 points each, so depending on how many bikes you have in your squad could be valued at less than a point each to 1.67 points per model. That assumes that you're running the army in conjunction with Terminators otherwise the Teleport Homers are wasted points. Giving that the benefit of the doubt, are Scout and the Jink Re-Roll worth a little over 2 points per model? Yeah, I could agree with that. But you're paying a tax for using Terminators. And I haven't seen proof yet that DA Terminators will be that much more useful than SM Terminators.
Without buffing using a Librarian, the White Scar jink saves 2/3 of the time versus 3/4 with the Ravenwing Jink Re-Roll. Not to mention the fact that with the new C:SM Librarius Conclave, White Scars can get the same benefits of the DA Librarius Conclave and can have all their Librarians on bikes as opposed to DA needing to have Ezekiel hang out somewhere on foot.
However, the Speed of the Raven rule means you get to do this and you get to fire at full effect after jinking. Okay, that could be worth the points. Jinking with no decrease in shooting next round? I can be on board with that.
Another thing you may not have taken into effect, RW armies can get fairly easy access to+1 cover save in an area. Giving normal bikes a 3+ at worse and black knights a 2+
The Vengeance looks tempting now. Dropping a Large Blast onto something out of retaliation range with 33% more HP and a 20pts cost reduction...
Nephilim remains firmly "meh". Even with S7 I can't see two of them bringing down anything reliably. Maybe they have a SR that lets them fire all weapons at once?
Like now, one nephilim will deal .74hp for 2 turnsto a jinking AV12 flyer... with lascannons. After that... you might as well throw it away,
Brillow80 wrote: With regard to the DWK changes, "basically smash" leaves a lot open to interpretation...
Does it happen at initiative or I1?
Does it re-roll armor penetration?
Does it use the models base strength or S+2 when determining the x2 strength.
So much room for awesome, meh, or head scratching mediocrity..
AP3 is a nice, welcome, and needed change.
Fleshbane helps in the MC front, but he's no better than a krak grenade x 3 vs vehicles. Please let the Knight Master take melta bombs!
Bikes are still overcosted, both in the RW and the BK department...why are the regular bikes 4 more points than their vanilla counter parts?!?!
It changes the weapon to a Sx2 Ap2, and the smite effect only allows the model to swing with one attack. So one S8, Ap2, at Initiative attack per model.
So one of the main selling points of DWK was turned into a clutch. 5 Attacks just doesn't cut it with a 200+ pts unit.
Sad.
Granted, most of the time it was overkill, but it should have been S10 at least or half attacks, so you get 2 on the charge.
The Vengeance looks tempting now. Dropping a Large Blast onto something out of retaliation range with 33% more HP and a 20pts cost reduction...
Nephilim remains firmly "meh". Even with S7 I can't see two of them bringing down anything reliably. Maybe they have a SR that lets them fire all weapons at once?
Like now, one nephilim will deal .74hp for 2 turnsto a jinking AV12 flyer... with lascannons. After that... you might as well throw it away,
Disagree
It forces enemy fliers to jink, and is very effective at cutting down FMC (much more so than it was before)and let's face it. 75% of the time, most flyers used now are FMCs
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thairne wrote: So one of the main selling points of DWK was turned into a clutch. 5 Attacks just doesn't cut it with a 200+ pts unit.
Sad.
Granted, most of the time it was overkill, but it should have been S10 at least or half attacks, so you get 2 on the charge.
You still wreck a unit of meganobs, or anything else T4.
It forces enemy fliers to jink, and is very effective at cutting down FMC (much more so than it was before)and let's face it. 75% of the time, most flyers used now are FMCs
Well I mostly face a flying nurgle DP and heldrakes.
The DP with its 2+ cover will laugh it off, whereas the Drakes won't even jink with a 5++ and IWND the damage back anyway.
So the Nephilim is pretty dead weight to me in the AA department - at least it will reliably arrive on T2 and maybe blast some Nurgle Bikers of the table.
raiden wrote: [
Automatically Appended Next Post: You still wreck a unit of meganobs, or anything else T4.
I do agree on str10 though
Which a standard unit of TH/SS termies for, as far as we know, 20 points cheaper and double to triple the attacks can do as well. Although with T4 and at I1.
Regarding the Teleport Homer, it's probably at least two homers' worth per unit. The area covered by the unit is significantly larger than a single homer, making your DS drops much harder to predict / counter, plus you have backups in case of casualties. At the very least, you should count the full cost for the two models furthest apart.
I don't think this has been posted on here yet but here's a sprue pic for the Interrogator Chaplain... The head's separate as is the power fist . Hello conversion opportunities!
It changes the weapon to a Sx2 Ap2, and the smite effect only allows the model to swing with one attack. So one S8, Ap2, at Initiative attack per model.
This is much better than (S+2) x 2 -- you'd have S12 attacks, and that would be a little silly >.<
That's piece 9.
Piece 2 is the part in the bottom left corner. To me it looks like another bit of the cape (possibly the part that is under the shield?)
Nocturnus wrote: So far Deathwing seem to be the weakest link thus far. Hopefully there's more to be revealed about them.
Weakest from the leaks, but possibly the most broken thing in the codex from the hints.
We could very well be looking at the following scenario:
Ravenwings turbo boost turn 1 into your deploy. They are close to immune to shooting that round. Top of turn 2 DW knights and termies get DStriked in without scatter, shoot with split fire(maybe even run) and assault that same turn. Bikes shoot at full Bs and assault. Don't even want to think about Dreds doing the same thing (perfectly possible).
That could be the strongest beta strike army in the game.
The whole thing is looking pretty meh to me, granted we have to wait until we can read the book as a whole and see exactly how the special rule shake out.
Standard DW units seem to have taken a hit, and while their point cost has gone down from the last book, its actually gone up relative to the SM codex by 1 point per model.
RW seems to have access to buffet of special rules, but if the rule are dependant on detachments and formations they may be a bit more difficult then initially thought to capitalize on.
The nephilim and the vengeance are still rubbish. The dark talon is cool now, but it doesn't solve our anti air problem.
DWKs just had their problems tweaked a little, not fixed. Black Knights are hopefully still awesome in concept, but definitely way too expensive.
This book is going to raise the power level of DAs relative to the last 6-9 months releases, still leaving them at the end of the pack.
Dreds do benefit from Deathwing Assault if they're venerable.
So yes, DA is now all about the RW and DW interaction, which I love dearly.
Our gimmicks are strong (Stasis Bomb, Black Knights, Ravenwing Shenanigans, Mindworm and Interromancy, precision mix&matchTerminators) and the rest is roughly equal to C:SM.
Spoletta wrote: Ravenwings turbo boost turn 1 into your deploy. They are close to immune to shooting that round.
Okay, I'm hearing a lot of how Ravenwing will be largely immune to shooting. This isn't Invisibility they're getting. They're getting a cover save. It's a re-rollable cover save, but it's a cover save nonetheless. And because cover saves have already gotten so common, more and more armies are already loaded for bear with 'Ignores Cover Save' weapons.
Will it be good? Yes. I believe it will be effective. But I think only because people won't be able to pack enough 'Ignores Cover Save' weapons. But I think there will be some armies (Tau) that just won't care.
Optional
2 HQ 10 Elite
Only units with Deathwing SR or dedicated transports.
Ven Dread Units may only include 1 model and must use a Drop Pod.
Bring the fight to the Enemy:
Can shoot and run or run and shoot when arriving via Deep Strike
First Knight of Caliban:
If primary detachment, reroll warlord trait.
Summoned to War:
Must start in Deep Strike reserve. If your army contains a RW Attack Squad or a Ravenwing Strike force, you may choose to have them arrive automatically.
----
Ravenwing Strike Force
Obligatory
1 HQ 2 Fast Attack
Optional
2 HQ 1 Elite
10 Fast Attack
3 Heavy Support
All units must have the Ravenwing SR.
First Hunter:
If primary, reroll warlord trait.
Speed of the Raven:
All units may turbo boost and are considered jinking until your next turn. May fire weapons normally.
United Assault:
All units must be either placed in reserve or be deployed normally.
If in reserve, all units arrive automatically.
There we go, there come the Black Knights. Up to 12 units of them should be enough for anyone, though not in The Lion's Blade.
If the Shoot and Run and DW assault are tied to the formation, then I am wondering what non-formation Deathwing will have to set them apart from basic Termies/make up the extra points over C:SM ones. Fearless and Hatred doesn't seem worth 5 points to me, so I do hope they keep the TL-on-drop ability and Split Fire.
Ravenwing, on the other hand, seem insane with that formation. It seems they can Turbo-boost, fire and count as jinking all in one turn; is that a one-use thing or can they keep doing it?
Fire Discipline:
Fire Overwatch with BS 3 if model has Grim Resolve
---
DW Redemption Force:
Same Shoot and Run rule.
Deathwing Assault in turn 2,3,4, including Dreads in Pods.
Also preferred Enemy(CSM).
RW Attack Squadron:
Scout
Only one LS in the unit allowed.
Attack Squad:
If the land Speeder or LS Vengeance scores a HIT, other models add 1 to their BS
Summon the Deathwing:
Basically a 12" Teleport Homer!
-----
RW Support Squad
At least 3 Landspeeders
Interceptor!
Strafing run!
Grim Resolve
Ravenshield:
within 24" friendly units can fire overwatch, even vehicles!
Support Squad:
Counts as 2 units if squadron is destroyed.
---
RW Silence Squad
Capture Run (read it for yourselfs, too much to type, was already leaked )
Fighter Escort:
Rerollable reserve roll for the entire formation.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Paradigm wrote: If the Shoot and Run and DW assault are tied to the formation, then I am wondering what non-formation Deathwing will have to set them apart from basic Termies/make up the extra points over C:SM ones. Fearless and Hatred doesn't seem worth 5 points to me, so I do hope they keep the TL-on-drop ability and Split Fire.
Ravenwing, on the other hand, seem insane with that formation. It seems they can Turbo-boost, fire and count as jinking all in one turn; is that a one-use thing or can they keep doing it?
They keep Split Fire for sure.
The Raventhingy is only in their first turn and they can't fire when they Turbo-boost. So it's a "next turn" thing.
Wait, so the Deathwing Strike Force needs to start in Deep Strike reserves? So the only way to play this is to add a Land Raider, Venerable Dreadnought with Drop Pod, or using Ravenwing?
Argh, they've made a pure Deathwing force unworkable due to the forced reserves thing, and at the same time given basically no real detachment or formation benefit (One turn of run and shoot is pretty trivial, guards against blast markers I suppose) unless acting in concert with Ravenwing.
Everything must have Deathwing or be a dedicated Transport (Land Raiders, which will get Deathwing rule by being a Deathwing Vehicle).
Every unit must start in DS Reserve.
Ergo...
Spoletta wrote: Ravenwings turbo boost turn 1 into your deploy. They are close to immune to shooting that round.
Okay, I'm hearing a lot of how Ravenwing will be largely immune to shooting. This isn't Invisibility they're getting. They're getting a cover save. It's a re-rollable cover save, but it's a cover save nonetheless. And because cover saves have already gotten so common, more and more armies are already loaded for bear with 'Ignores Cover Save' weapons.
Will it be good? Yes. I believe it will be effective. But I think only because people won't be able to pack enough 'Ignores Cover Save' weapons. But I think there will be some armies (Tau) that just won't care.
Ignores Cover is quite difficult to get. Imperial armies usually can only get it by having either Perfect Timing or Imperial Guard Senior Officers, or Wyverns and Thundercannons and Whirlwinds, all of which don't do AP3. Once the sources of Ignores Cover go down, the RW quickly become unmanageable, especially if the entire force has it by default. Ditto for Tau and other races. Skyhammer now provides a reliable turn 1 way of engaging the sources of Ignores Cover.
Not to mention it's inbuilt unlike Fortune so it can't be denied. An entire army of re-rollable 2+ saves isn't hugely difficult to accomplish either.
tydrace wrote:Wait, so the Deathwing Strike Force needs to start in Deep Strike reserves? So the only way to play this is to add a Land Raider, Venerable Dreadnought with Drop Pod, or using Ravenwing?
That's a shame.
changemod wrote:Argh, they've made a pure Deathwing force unworkable due to the forced reserves thing, and at the same time given basically no real detachment or formation benefit unless acting in concert with Ravenwing.
Yeah, it is irritating, I typically built DW forces around all TDA Deep-Striking, no Ravens or Greenies. With the Detachment (rather than the formation) it also means any Dreads are going to come in a turn earlier, so an all-DW force would have to rely on Dreads and pods surviving the first round of shooting alone, which unless you use the Shoot+run to get behind LoS blocking terrain isn't hugely likely.
Looks like normal marines out "Librarian Conclaved" us... DW seems quite lack lustre to say the least. Guess I will have to go with normal marines to get ObSec bikes.
Paradigm wrote: Yeah, it is irritating, I typically built DW forces around all TDA Deep-Striking, no Ravens or Greenies. With the Detachment (rather than the formation) it also means any Dreads are going to come in a turn earlier, so an all-DW force would have to rely on Dreads and pods surviving the first round of shooting alone, which unless you use the Shoot+run to get behind LoS blocking terrain isn't hugely likely.
The most frustrating part, I only started this army of solo-Deathwing two months ago.
If they take DS Raiders away from BA only to give them to DA, there shall be much gnashing of teeth!
In all honesty, though, I'm not sure teleporting LR is actually the intent, and this is just a typical GW oversight, given that BA were stripped of the same.
Crazy, I did not expect them to actually put alternative detachments instead of alternative core in the codex for the Ravenwing & Deathwing. A little sad that our conclave requires Ezekiel and that we didn't get the conclave as a standard command choice for the Decurion. Ravenwing look solid and deathwing look like deathwing have always looked liked except for a brief shining moment in the sun but overall at least it seems like a book that can compete.
Has anyone else got that sinking feeling?
The Ravenwing Attack Squad being 10 members, 6 on bike, 2 on attack bike, 2 on speeder was one of the coolest things about the last book. These formations give me the impression that it's now impossible to build that same unit.
Nevermind. The bike squad can still add an attack bike - see pictures below.
changemod wrote: There's actually a benefit to Deep Striking a Land Raider?
Other than the fact that it's literally the most fething awesome thing you can ever do in a game of 40k? Aside from getting closer/hiding from a turn off shooting then probably not, but who cares?*
*note that all this applied to the Blood Angels version where you just drop them off the back of a Thunderhawk. Teleporting is approximately 37% less awesome.
tydrace wrote:Wait, so the Deathwing Strike Force needs to start in Deep Strike reserves? So the only way to play this is to add a Land Raider, Venerable Dreadnought with Drop Pod, or using Ravenwing?
That's a shame.
changemod wrote:Argh, they've made a pure Deathwing force unworkable due to the forced reserves thing, and at the same time given basically no real detachment or formation benefit unless acting in concert with Ravenwing.
Yeah, it is irritating, I typically built DW forces around all TDA Deep-Striking, no Ravens or Greenies. With the Detachment (rather than the formation) it also means any Dreads are going to come in a turn earlier, so an all-DW force would have to rely on Dreads and pods surviving the first round of shooting alone, which unless you use the Shoot+run to get behind LoS blocking terrain isn't hugely likely.
Do some of the units still have Deathwing Assault rule? That would allow you to play purely DW by deep-striking on turn 1.
Thairne wrote: Newsflash:
Special Ammo is in!
I spy with my little eye: HELLFIRE ROUNDS!
I just see the special HB rounds for scouts, not the full-blown sternguard loadout.
(but my german is very rusty)
Yeah, I referred to the earlier pictures that had the wargear lists, not the actual unit pictures.
Hellfire only for Scout HB's and Sniper Rifles actually cost a point.
Also, Dreads with 4A confirmed.
Thairne wrote: Newsflash:
Special Ammo is in!
I spy with my little eye: HELLFIRE ROUNDS!
I just see the special HB rounds for scouts, not the full-blown sternguard loadout.
(but my german is very rusty)
Yeah, I referred to the earlier pictures that had the wargear lists, not the actual unit pictures.
Hellfire only for Scout HB's and Sniper Rifles actually cost a point.
Also, Dreads with 4A confirmed.
WAIT WAIT WAIT.
Scouts can buy Hellfire Rounds for Sniper Rifles?!
Thairne wrote: Newsflash:
Special Ammo is in!
I spy with my little eye: HELLFIRE ROUNDS!
I just see the special HB rounds for scouts, not the full-blown sternguard loadout.
(but my german is very rusty)
Yeah, I referred to the earlier pictures that had the wargear lists, not the actual unit pictures.
Hellfire only for Scout HB's and Sniper Rifles actually cost a point.
Also, Dreads with 4A confirmed.
WAIT WAIT WAIT.
Scouts can buy Hellfire Rounds for Sniper Rifles?!
Nope, only for the one heavy bolter. Looks like 5 pts, hard to tell.
I'm kind of worried but I was wanting to do DeathRaven anyway.
My main remaining worries are adapting to these dippy formations instead of FOC moving and where I'll put some of my units (Vindicator, Librarian, Tactical Squad and Assault Squad), though perhaps also some HQ concerns.
CrashGordon94 wrote: I'm kind of worried but I was wanting to do DeathRaven anyway.
My main remaining worries are adapting to these dippy formations instead of FOC moving and where I'll put some of my units (Vindicator, Librarian, Tactical Squad and Assault Squad), though perhaps also some HQ concerns.
It's easy enough. To use Detachments, rather than formations, this is what you need/get:
Deathwing:
2 Terminator or Knight squads and 1 Terminator HQ (I'm guessing TDA confers the Deathwing rule)
Gain run+shoot on the Turn your drop, must DS, can choose the Turn if you have any Ravenwing
Ravenwing:
2 Ravenwing or Black Knights squads, 1 biker HQ Gain Turbo-Jink+normal firing on T1, precision DS for Deathwing.
Green:
CAD, so two troops and an HQ.
Or you can just use a CAD for everything, with your DW in Elites and your RW in FA.
Well the wording is specifically:
"Any model in this unit that is equipped with a Storm Shield (including models with the Independent Character Rule that have joined it) ...."
So it seems to me the IC clause is to extend the "any model in this unit" part. They lack a StormS hield, so they don't get the bonus. Which means you still get majority toughness, but if only 2 knights are left - no T5 anymore.
Formosa wrote: No option for ew like every other book gets.
You mean "like only Space Marines get"?
No I mean like
Space marines
Space wolves
Orks
Chaos space marines
Not sure about eldar as haven't read it properly yet
Imperial guard if I remember correctly.
Every army should have access to either an ew character or a wargear option that allows it, space marine have lysander (should not have ew anyway but that a different topic), calgar, shield eternal.
I'm sorry if this was covered earlier but did the storm raven make it into the codex and did Azrael get put into a lord of war slot? Thanks for the leaks, Thairn, btw.
Formosa wrote: No option for ew like every other book gets.
You mean "like only Space Marines get"?
No I mean like
Space marines
Space wolves
Orks
Chaos space marines
Not sure about eldar as haven't read it properly yet
Imperial guard if I remember correctly.
Every army should have access to either an ew character or a wargear option that allows it, space marine have lysander (should not have ew anyway but that a different topic), calgar, shield eternal.
Sammael had EW in the last codex. I haven't seen leaks that say otherwise but I may be wrong.
Yeah Sammy is vastly overcosted last book, but an option would be nice, like the adamantine mantle as an option for example, I don't like having to take special characters if I can avoid it haha
But all this rules, formations and detachments... I will need so many new models. Well played GW. Well played.
marines have it, and I have already playtested it ( i own 3 old vindicators) and it is completely worthless for 360pts. Seriously, it's not as giood as you'd think, the blast really isnt that much larger to matter and your only getting single hits on things like MC's and vehicles with short range on an unwieldy tank unit that gets in the way.
Good bye scatter bikes...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Or. In other words if you are shooting it at MCs or lone non dangerous vehicles you're using it wrong
Ah 24" range and the blast is not that big chief. Your not gona kill jack for scat bikes. 360 points for a 3 man unit generally. But go ahead and act like you know what your talking about.
CrashGordon94 wrote: I'm kind of worried but I was wanting to do DeathRaven anyway.
My main remaining worries are adapting to these dippy formations instead of FOC moving and where I'll put some of my units (Vindicator, Librarian, Tactical Squad and Assault Squad), though perhaps also some HQ concerns.
It's easy enough. To use Detachments, rather than formations, this is what you need/get:
Deathwing:
2 Terminator or Knight squads and 1 Terminator HQ (I'm guessing TDA confers the Deathwing rule)
Gain run+shoot on the Turn your drop, must DS, can choose the Turn if you have any Ravenwing
Ravenwing:
2 Ravenwing or Black Knights squads, 1 biker HQ Gain Turbo-Jink+normal firing on T1, precision DS for Deathwing.
Green:
CAD, so two troops and an HQ.
Or you can just use a CAD for everything, with your DW in Elites and your RW in FA.
The triple trouble setup seems reasonable enough, only issue is I'd need another thing of Troops (Only one i have now is a singular Tactical Squad. Admittedly 10-man but only one Segeant and nobody else who could pass for one).
A singular CAD won't work without FOC moving. I already have too many Terminators and Dreadnoughts and I'd only have room for one more Bike Squad (of any sort).
I'd like to simulate this in a game tonight. Do I understand correctly that I can take this formation as one Techmarine, one Land Raider, and one Predator?
The two vehicles form a squadron? I think there's a lot of possibilities with Land Raiders in squadrons with AV 13 Predators and Vindicators.
All of them get Monster Hunter and Tank Hunter special rules?
The techmarine grants the Land Raider BS5 while embarked? Or both vehicles?
Speed of the Raven:
All units may turbo boost and are considered jinking until your next turn. May fire weapons normally.
United Assault:
All units must be either placed in reserve or be deployed normally.
If in reserve, all units arrive automatically.
I'll try this too. Can they use Speed of the Raven only on the first turn or all turns? They fire normally on their NEXT turn right? And they re-roll all of those turbo jink saves because reasons?
Wow. After seeing the new rules for Ravenwing, I apologize for the nit-picking I was doing earlier. The formation rules for them seem pretty awesome!
Back in 5th ed, my C:SM army typically ran with 3 Squadrons of 3 Land Speeder Typhoons - they were some of my favorite units in that army. With the squadrons get Interceptor and Strafing Run? WOW! Those are gonna be fun to play!
I wonder what the elite choice is that Ravenwing can take, was thinking Bike command squad but it seems to be listed with normal Dark Knights so not sure. Same with HQs. There must be some mechanic that allows you to become ravewing otherwise Sammael is the only HQ that is ravewing...
Imagine, RW with scout and turbo boosting turn 1 with darkshroud support. 36" in your face with 3+ rerollable cover (2+ for black knights) firing at better than BS1 overwatch and full BS following turn. Such shenanigans!
Is there a good reason why this isn't part of army selection?
Step1: Choose a HQ in terminator armor.
Step 2: Units of Terminators are now Troops.
Step 3: Enjoy your game of 40K.
Is it that hard? A few lines of text in a little gray box tucked in a corner of a bloated codex? Let the people who want to play Formationhammer have their special rules and face-melting combos, while the minority of us just want to play with our termies, dreads, and land raiders like the good old days. For feth's sake.
the_Armyman wrote: Is there a good reason why this isn't part of army selection?
Step1: Choose a HQ in terminator armor.
Step 2: Units of Terminators are now Troops.
Step 3: Enjoy your game of 40K.
Is it that hard? A few lines of text in a little gray box tucked in a corner of a bloated codex? Let the people who want to play Formationhammer have their special rules and face-melting combos, while the minority of us just want to play with our termies, dreads, and land raiders like the good old days. For feth's sake.
Just because you don't like change doesn't mean they shouldn't do it.
Honestly to me, this style feels much more organized, even if it is a little more limiting.
the_Armyman wrote: Is there a good reason why this isn't part of army selection?
Step1: Choose a HQ in terminator armor.
Step 2: Units of Terminators are now Troops.
Step 3: Enjoy your game of 40K.
Is it that hard? A few lines of text in a little gray box tucked in a corner of a bloated codex? Let the people who want to play Formationhammer have their special rules and face-melting combos, while the minority of us just want to play with our termies, dreads, and land raiders like the good old days. For feth's sake.
Erh. Can't you just run the Deathwing detachment that has been leaked a few pages back?
Spoletta wrote: Ravenwings turbo boost turn 1 into your deploy. They are close to immune to shooting that round.
Okay, I'm hearing a lot of how Ravenwing will be largely immune to shooting. This isn't Invisibility they're getting. They're getting a cover save. It's a re-rollable cover save, but it's a cover save nonetheless. And because cover saves have already gotten so common, more and more armies are already loaded for bear with 'Ignores Cover Save' weapons.
Will it be good? Yes. I believe it will be effective. But I think only because people won't be able to pack enough 'Ignores Cover Save' weapons. But I think there will be some armies (Tau) that just won't care.
Ignores Cover is quite difficult to get. Imperial armies usually can only get it by having either Perfect Timing or Imperial Guard Senior Officers, or Wyverns and Thundercannons and Whirlwinds, all of which don't do AP3. Once the sources of Ignores Cover go down, the RW quickly become unmanageable, especially if the entire force has it by default. Ditto for Tau and other races. Skyhammer now provides a reliable turn 1 way of engaging the sources of Ignores Cover.
Not to mention it's inbuilt unlike Fortune so it can't be denied. An entire army of re-rollable 2+ saves isn't hugely difficult to accomplish either.
If Imperial Armies want Ignore cover and AP1 melta weapons - that will be Adepta Sororitas Dominions then oh and with Scout too............
the_Armyman wrote: Is there a good reason why this isn't part of army selection?
Step1: Choose a HQ in terminator armor.
Step 2: Units of Terminators are now Troops.
Step 3: Enjoy your game of 40K.
Is it that hard? A few lines of text in a little gray box tucked in a corner of a bloated codex? Let the people who want to play Formationhammer have their special rules and face-melting combos, while the minority of us just want to play with our termies, dreads, and land raiders like the good old days. For feth's sake.
Erh. Can't you just run the Deathwing detachment that has been leaked a few pages back?
no, apparently he wants his Terminators as troops and then take other support like a normal CAD.
Not sure I agree with that, Terminators are elites (regardless of rules in the past) and you have been given a way to still field them singularly. Not sure why they have to be Troops.
Formosa wrote: Every army should have access to either an ew character or a wargear option that allows it, space marine have lysander (should not have ew anyway but that a different topic), calgar, shield eternal.
Every army doesn't need to have access to the same stuff. That's kind of the whole point of having different armies.
the_Armyman wrote: Is there a good reason why this isn't part of army selection?
Step1: Choose a HQ in terminator armor.
Step 2: Units of Terminators are now Troops.
Step 3: Enjoy your game of 40K.
Is it that hard? A few lines of text in a little gray box tucked in a corner of a bloated codex? Let the people who want to play Formationhammer have their special rules and face-melting combos, while the minority of us just want to play with our termies, dreads, and land raiders like the good old days. For feth's sake.
FOC-shifting went away when Unbound became a thing.
Formosa wrote: Every army should have access to either an ew character or a wargear option that allows it, space marine have lysander (should not have ew anyway but that a different topic), calgar, shield eternal.
Every army doesn't need to have access to the same stuff. That's kind of the whole point of having different armies.
the_Armyman wrote: Is there a good reason why this isn't part of army selection?
Step1: Choose a HQ in terminator armor.
Step 2: Units of Terminators are now Troops.
Step 3: Enjoy your game of 40K.
Is it that hard? A few lines of text in a little gray box tucked in a corner of a bloated codex? Let the people who want to play Formationhammer have their special rules and face-melting combos, while the minority of us just want to play with our termies, dreads, and land raiders like the good old days. For feth's sake.
FOC-shifting went away when Unbound became a thing.
Except for Space Marines, who still get Troops Bikes. Even easier now, in this edition.
6 inches of death a turn, moving towards you.
