I would like to see the LR Annihilator in the new dex, but with Tank Hunters.
The Bs3 lascannons are usually underwhelming, but with tank hunters, they'd be srs biznis.
Quite frankly, IG are one of the last armies that should be negating enemy abilities. IG are a brute force type army that defeats jink by more shots. I would rather have more tanks and men on the board than "better" ones.
That would be stupid. If that was the good IG list, people could play it in places where super heavies are not accepted. Not to mention the cost would be rather high. Who owns more then two russes anyway.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, superheavies are not automatically made redundant just because some people don't allow them.
It's never stopped the real cheese before.
Makumba wrote: That would be stupid. If that was the good IG list, people could play it in places where super heavies are not accepted. Not to mention the cost would be rather high. Who owns more then two russes anyway.
Obviously you are not an IG player.
For the record I own 2 Battletanks, an Eradicator, 2 Exterminators, a Thunderer, a Deimos Laser Destroyer and a Shadowsword/Stormsword chassis superheavy.
And I am planning on scratchbuilding a Baneblade in a week or so.
Makumba wrote: That would be stupid. If that was the good IG list, people could play it in places where super heavies are not accepted. Not to mention the cost would be rather high. Who owns more then two russes anyway.
I have 6 Russes unbuilt at the moment...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JohnHwangDD wrote: Quite frankly, IG are one of the last armies that should be negating enemy abilities. IG are a brute force type army that defeats jink by more shots. I would rather have more tanks and men on the board than "better" ones.
You understand that prior to Astra Militarum that is EXACTLY how the Hydra Autocannons worked, right?
The fluff is that there is a mechanism inside of that targeting array looking bit on the front which "locks" the guns into a specific angle and path when it registers the shots hitting the target.
So the Hydra puts buttloads of rounds downrange until it finally hits, then the array takes over and locks it onto the target until it falls from the sky in a flaming wreck.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Quite frankly, IG are one of the last armies that should be negating enemy abilities. IG are a brute force type army that defeats jink by more shots. I would rather have more tanks and men on the board than "better" ones.
You understand that prior to Astra Militarum that is EXACTLY how the Hydra Autocannons worked, right?
The fluff is that there is a mechanism inside of that targeting array looking bit on the front which "locks" the guns into a specific angle and path when it registers the shots hitting the target.
So the Hydra puts buttloads of rounds downrange until it finally hits, then the array takes over and locks it onto the target until it falls from the sky in a flaming wreck.
My god. That has just put the most epic scene into my head.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Firing pointlessly until the enemy finally flies into the cloud of bullets, then the Hydra locks in and furiously chases the aircraft through the skies with Bullet Hell.
Makumba wrote: That would be stupid. If that was the good IG list, people could play it in places where super heavies are not accepted. Not to mention the cost would be rather high. Who owns more then two russes anyway.
I know someone was talking earlier that Lasguns should be buffed, had an idea for that. Attachments that are upgrades for any Imperial Guard Squad w/Lasguns/Autoguns (For fluff purposes and to justify some of the specialized ammo). Each squad can only take one attachment.
-Heavy-Charge pack 1ppm
Lasguns get +1 strength
-Assault Lascarbine Upgrade 1ppm
Lasguns become R: 18" Assault 3
-Hot-Shot 2ppm
S: 4 Ap: 3 Gets Hot!
-Poisoned Rounds 2ppm
Gains Poisoned (4+)
-Barrel-Length Upgrade 1ppm
Lasguns are now 30"
-Ripper Shells 2ppm
Lasguns gain Shred
-Red Dot Scope 1ppm
Lasguns gain precision Shots
-Underslung Grenade Launcher 3ppm
Model has a one shot 18" Frag or Krak grenade Launcher round
Selym wrote: I'd go so far as to have them taken on anything and everything with a lasgun, not just one IG squad per selection.
Multiple squads can take the same attachment, but the same squad can't take multiple attachments, because it get's ridiculous when someone has an Assault Red-Dot Sight Lascarbine w/Poisoned Shells and an Underslung Grenade Launcher. Although also very expensive.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, superheavies are not automatically made redundant just because some people don't allow them.
It's never stopped the real cheese before.
Any guard player worth their salt has at least five Leman Russes. I have 7 and a Baneblade. And I don't really play Guard anymore.
I would like to see ways to buff the firepower on Leman Russ tanks. Vanquishers need something to make them worth taking. Maybe some kind of twin link? Tank orders to gives out "Ignores cover"?
Any guard player worth their salt has at least five Leman Russes.
*Walks out.*
You do a lot of picking up your army and walking out, don't you
-Vipod gets informed by me that Jink spammers have no right to whine, picks up DE and leaves
-Vipod gets informed by TCL that true IG have 5+ Russes, picks up IG and leaves
Fire modes:
"Stable"--30" S4 AP3 Rapid Fire
"Overcharged"--15" S6 AP3 Assault 3
Special Rules: Capacitor--A model with a Hellgun requires a specialized powerplant strapped to their back. This powerplant contains the coolant and stabilization systems for the Hellgun's enhanced plant.
Hellguns can be fired in two modes. When fired in the "Overcharged" mode, roll a D6 for each model in the squad as though they were firing a weapon with the "Gets Hot" rule.
On a roll of a 1, that model's shots have the Instant Death rule.
Kanluwen wrote: Hotshot Lasgun--deleted.
Replaced with "Hellguns"
Fire modes:
"Stable"--30" S4 AP3 Rapid Fire
"Overcharged"--15" S6 AP3 Assault 3
Special Rules: Capacitor--A model with a Hellgun requires a specialized powerplant strapped to their back. This powerplant contains the coolant and stabilization systems for the Hellgun's enhanced plant.
Hellguns can be fired in two modes. When fired in the "Overcharged" mode, roll a D6 for each model in the squad as though they were firing a weapon with the "Gets Hot" rule.
On a roll of a 1, that model's shots have the Instant Death rule.
Not only is this unrealistic wishlisting, but the Instant death rule is OP. We will not be getting S4 on Hot shots, nor alternate fire modes. It's just not something I could ever see GW giving the Guard, even for Stormtroopers. We'll be lucky if Stormtroopers get buffed at all, they were bad last edition and they are bad now. What they really need is a point cost reduction.
Well, they do need a cost reduction, but the gun needs fundamental work as well. S3 on an AP3 weapon is simply unable to function properly with just one or two shots, particularly with a cut-down range meaning double-tap is only 9".
Honestly, Stormtroopers have never been particularly good, and that's a shame. I don't think the AP3 schtick is really something that works for them. It pigeon-holes them into a anti-MEQ hunter specialist role (that they're bad at), when they should be elite shock troops, the IG equivalent of SM Veterans.
Personally, I'd much rather see the unit reconfigured as an actual "Stormtrooper" unit, with blistering short range firepower that's used to engage a foe at short range and clear them from a position through assault. Make the gun AP5 or AP-, but something like Assault 3 18" Pinning, give ST's 2 attacks (or a pistol/CCW combo) and WS4, an Ld bump, maybe Furious Charge too, make them 10-11pts a piece or something, and suddenly you've got a classic "Stormtrooper" unit that can clear and claim positions on its own and can do something other than lamely engage MEQ's with their AP3 noodle guns, as doubling the number of shots and following it through with an assault is going to have a lot more value than AP3.
Give us our own gladius with free chimeras and armored LR formations with appropriate buff and ill be happy. Paying 65 pts for a chimera that only transports guardsman is simply unacceptable with stuff like Gladius and Deucalion running around.
Vaktathi wrote: Well, they do need a cost reduction, but the gun needs fundamental work as well. S3 on an AP3 weapon is simply unable to function properly with just one or two shots, particularly with a cut-down range meaning double-tap is only 9".
Honestly, Stormtroopers have never been particularly good, and that's a shame. I don't think the AP3 schtick is really something that works for them. It pigeon-holes them into a anti-MEQ hunter specialist role (that they're bad at), when they should be elite shock troops, the IG equivalent of SM Veterans.
Personally, I'd much rather see the unit reconfigured as an actual "Stormtrooper" unit, with blistering short range firepower that's used to engage a foe at short range and clear them from a position through assault. Make the gun AP5 or AP-, but something like Assault 3 18" Pinning, give ST's 2 attacks (or a pistol/CCW combo) and WS4, an Ld bump, maybe Furious Charge too, make them 10-11pts a piece or something, and suddenly you've got a classic "Stormtrooper" unit that can clear and claim positions on its own and can do something other than lamely engage MEQ's with their AP3 noodle guns, as doubling the number of shots and following it through with an assault is going to have a lot more value than AP3.
That's just my personal fantasy however.
All I have ever wanted was for Stormtroopers to be legitimate choice in the IG codex. I don't understand why GW couldn't come to the same conclusions you have. I think your suggestion is a perfect fit for the role Stormtroopers are meant to fill while also maintaining balance. I might print this off & make it one of our new house rules.
Vaktathi wrote: Well, they do need a cost reduction, but the gun needs fundamental work as well. S3 on an AP3 weapon is simply unable to function properly with just one or two shots, particularly with a cut-down range meaning double-tap is only 9".
Honestly, Stormtroopers have never been particularly good, and that's a shame. I don't think the AP3 schtick is really something that works for them. It pigeon-holes them into a anti-MEQ hunter specialist role (that they're bad at), when they should be elite shock troops, the IG equivalent of SM Veterans.
Personally, I'd much rather see the unit reconfigured as an actual "Stormtrooper" unit, with blistering short range firepower that's used to engage a foe at short range and clear them from a position through assault. Make the gun AP5 or AP-, but something like Assault 3 18" Pinning, give ST's 2 attacks (or a pistol/CCW combo) and WS4, an Ld bump, maybe Furious Charge too, make them 10-11pts a piece or something, and suddenly you've got a classic "Stormtrooper" unit that can clear and claim positions on its own and can do something other than lamely engage MEQ's with their AP3 noodle guns, as doubling the number of shots and following it through with an assault is going to have a lot more value than AP3.
That's just my personal fantasy however.
So basically the same as Skitarii Vanguard rifles without the radium rule? Yea that would be nice. Personally what I think is a realistic assumption is that they will get some special rules changed around (option to Scout/outflank like they had in the 5th ed codex) and a point cost reduction of 2 or 3 ppm.
Vaktathi wrote: Well, they do need a cost reduction, but the gun needs fundamental work as well. S3 on an AP3 weapon is simply unable to function properly with just one or two shots, particularly with a cut-down range meaning double-tap is only 9".
Honestly, Stormtroopers have never been particularly good, and that's a shame. I don't think the AP3 schtick is really something that works for them. It pigeon-holes them into a anti-MEQ hunter specialist role (that they're bad at), when they should be elite shock troops, the IG equivalent of SM Veterans.
Personally, I'd much rather see the unit reconfigured as an actual "Stormtrooper" unit, with blistering short range firepower that's used to engage a foe at short range and clear them from a position through assault. Make the gun AP5 or AP-, but something like Assault 3 18" Pinning, give ST's 2 attacks (or a pistol/CCW combo) and WS4, an Ld bump, maybe Furious Charge too, make them 10-11pts a piece or something, and suddenly you've got a classic "Stormtrooper" unit that can clear and claim positions on its own and can do something other than lamely engage MEQ's with their AP3 noodle guns, as doubling the number of shots and following it through with an assault is going to have a lot more value than AP3.
That's just my personal fantasy however.
All I have ever wanted was for Stormtroopers to be legitimate choice in the IG codex. I don't understand why GW couldn't come to the same conclusions you have. I think your suggestion is a perfect fit for the role Stormtroopers are meant to fill while also maintaining balance. I might print this off & make it one of our new house rules.
Vaktathi wrote: Well, they do need a cost reduction, but the gun needs fundamental work as well. S3 on an AP3 weapon is simply unable to function properly with just one or two shots, particularly with a cut-down range meaning double-tap is only 9".
Honestly, Stormtroopers have never been particularly good, and that's a shame. I don't think the AP3 schtick is really something that works for them. It pigeon-holes them into a anti-MEQ hunter specialist role (that they're bad at), when they should be elite shock troops, the IG equivalent of SM Veterans.
Personally, I'd much rather see the unit reconfigured as an actual "Stormtrooper" unit, with blistering short range firepower that's used to engage a foe at short range and clear them from a position through assault. Make the gun AP5 or AP-, but something like Assault 3 18" Pinning, give ST's 2 attacks (or a pistol/CCW combo) and WS4, an Ld bump, maybe Furious Charge too, make them 10-11pts a piece or something, and suddenly you've got a classic "Stormtrooper" unit that can clear and claim positions on its own and can do something other than lamely engage MEQ's with their AP3 noodle guns, as doubling the number of shots and following it through with an assault is going to have a lot more value than AP3.
That's just my personal fantasy however.
So basically the same as Skitarii Vanguard rifles without the radium rule? Yea that would be nice. Personally what I think is a realistic assumption is that they will get some special rules changed around (option to Scout/outflank like they had in the 5th ed codex) and a point cost reduction of 2 or 3 ppm.
Skitarii got the *exact* rules I'd wanted for Stormtroopers since 4E (and had suggested in older threads), only better
Vaktathi wrote: Well, they do need a cost reduction, but the gun needs fundamental work as well. S3 on an AP3 weapon is simply unable to function properly with just one or two shots, particularly with a cut-down range meaning double-tap is only 9".
Honestly, Stormtroopers have never been particularly good, and that's a shame. I don't think the AP3 schtick is really something that works for them. It pigeon-holes them into a anti-MEQ hunter specialist role (that they're bad at), when they should be elite shock troops, the IG equivalent of SM Veterans.
Personally, I'd much rather see the unit reconfigured as an actual "Stormtrooper" unit, with blistering short range firepower that's used to engage a foe at short range and clear them from a position through assault. Make the gun AP5 or AP-, but something like Assault 3 18" Pinning, give ST's 2 attacks (or a pistol/CCW combo) and WS4, an Ld bump, maybe Furious Charge too, make them 10-11pts a piece or something, and suddenly you've got a classic "Stormtrooper" unit that can clear and claim positions on its own and can do something other than lamely engage MEQ's with their AP3 noodle guns, as doubling the number of shots and following it through with an assault is going to have a lot more value than AP3.
That's just my personal fantasy however.
Admittedly though, with S:3 T:3 I:3, assaulting an enemy would still be ill-advised against most targets except maybe Tau Fire Warriors. As such, maybe instead of a boost to Attacks or WS or giving them Furious charge, perhaps give the Hot-shot weapons the following profile?
Basically, giving them the "Blind" USR; the logic being that the brightness of these super-flashlights dazzling them? The main problem with "Pinning" is that there are lots of ways around it thanks to high base Ld, Independent characters, Fearless, etc that most of the units that you'd want to be taking out would be effectively immune to it. Meanwhile, giving them "Blind" instead would give the Storm Troopers the edge in close combat and also give them a saboteur-type role.
As an aside, someone previously mentioned that the Guard need better mobility options. With that in mind, I think the way to go about it would be to scrap Rough Riders and instead make it a doctrine for Veterans; e.g. giving them a War steed that always comes with a Hunting lance for 30 points total. This would give them much more tactical utility by allowing them to be late game objective takers (thanks to Objective secured), dragoons (cavalry with 3 special weapons), and even semi-decent close combatants (War steeds, Carapace armour). Incidentally, by making the horses a piece of wargear, it also allows the codex the option of giving others access to it - namely CCS, Commissar, and Commissar Lords.
On a more "out there" notion, perhaps even Ogryns? Allowing them to move 12" per movement phase would certainly help resolve their transportation issue and would make them pretty scary if they had a threat range of 24", with Fleet and not being slowed by Difficult terrain. And that's before taking into account them having a S: 7 AP: 3, I: 4 attacks on their first assault.
It is time for the infantry blob to go away, except perhaps as one of those formations with a big tax.
I would like to see HWS at least get a point reduction, or be able to have a vet upgrade. There are some similarities with terminators here though, so they might not be fixable.
I would really like to see some type of observer mechanic for artillery. Such that the shots are aimed and use BS of some infiltrator or scouting unit. Oh right yeah, the elites slot.
I think we just need to consider going back to hardened vets with a choice of special rule; infiltrate, tankhunter, monsterhunter?
I think they have most of the orders right, but the precise shot one could be improved maybe on 5+ with the order?
Yes some type of regimental docterines would be nice, but honestly I would rather just get a minidex for shirtlish joes and taliban. Maybe Vostroyans also, with a plastic range while wishlisting.
They could just do a dataslate with the other regiments getting their own warlord traits and orders.
Maybe it has been said, but I really miss Schaeffer's last chancers.
Almost forgot the most important thing, Commissars. I think preferred enemy makes sense and provides them with a role that differs from other available characters (inquisitors).
Special Rules: Spotters (During the movement phase, nominate one enemy unit within Line of Sight. Any Ordnance weapons fired at that unit do not roll for scatter)
Special Rules:
Spotters (During the movement phase, nominate one enemy unit within Line of Sight. Any Ordnance weapons fired at that unit do not roll for scatter)
*Steel Balls*
I love it, but can I get infiltrate, for lets say half the boots and same points?
Kanluwen wrote: Hotshot Lasgun--deleted.
Replaced with "Hellguns"
Fire modes:
"Stable"--30" S4 AP3 Rapid Fire
"Overcharged"--15" S6 AP3 Assault 3
Special Rules: Capacitor--A model with a Hellgun requires a specialized powerplant strapped to their back. This powerplant contains the coolant and stabilization systems for the Hellgun's enhanced plant.
Hellguns can be fired in two modes. When fired in the "Overcharged" mode, roll a D6 for each model in the squad as though they were firing a weapon with the "Gets Hot" rule.
On a roll of a 1, that model's shots have the Instant Death rule.
I'm sorry to have to say this, but that's as broken as hell - especially when combined with orders.
I'd just give them rending and blind.
Vaktathi wrote: Well, they do need a cost reduction, but the gun needs fundamental work as well. S3 on an AP3 weapon is simply unable to function properly with just one or two shots, particularly with a cut-down range meaning double-tap is only 9".
Honestly, Stormtroopers have never been particularly good, and that's a shame. I don't think the AP3 schtick is really something that works for them. It pigeon-holes them into a anti-MEQ hunter specialist role (that they're bad at), when they should be elite shock troops, the IG equivalent of SM Veterans.
Personally, I'd much rather see the unit reconfigured as an actual "Stormtrooper" unit, with blistering short range firepower that's used to engage a foe at short range and clear them from a position through assault. Make the gun AP5 or AP-, but something like Assault 3 18" Pinning, give ST's 2 attacks (or a pistol/CCW combo) and WS4, an Ld bump, maybe Furious Charge too, make them 10-11pts a piece or something, and suddenly you've got a classic "Stormtrooper" unit that can clear and claim positions on its own and can do something other than lamely engage MEQ's with their AP3 noodle guns, as doubling the number of shots and following it through with an assault is going to have a lot more value than AP3.
That's just my personal fantasy however.
Nah, I like them as a shooty unit. Let them staty AP 3, give them pistol + CCW back, and +1 WS so they can still do it in extremis - but don't make them as melee focused as that! Make them 10 ppm too - then they'll be worth taking except as an easy way to get 4 meltas and a Valk on the table.
The problem is that, without massive changes to the strength, rate of fire and range, they can't make effective use of that AP3, and against units where the AP3 doesn't do anything (e.g. 2+sv units, units in cover, or lighter units with crap armor), they still lack the raw volume of fire to really do anything. Same problem Thousand Sons and Vespids have had.
If we want to make them S4 Assault X 18" guns, then AP3 might be useful, but ultimately they're also really not supposed to be "power armor" hunters either, they're commando assault units, and they should have weapons and rules that reflect that. AP3 is just a crutch to try and make them interesting, but doesn't really reflect what they should be about.
Special Rules:
Spotters (During the movement phase, nominate one enemy unit within Line of Sight. Any Ordnance weapons fired at that unit do not roll for scatter)
Wargear:
Lasgun
Flak Armour
*Steel Balls*
I've wanted something like this for a long time.
Here's a home-brew unit I made regarding a spotter.
Thanks for clarifying on Rough Riders as +30 pts to make them mounted units. I'm of a mind that basic Power Lances are a superior choice, because they follow the basic rules without exception.
Only Conscripts should "blob", when bought as such from 10-50 models. BS2, any combination of LP&CCW or lasguns, option to take flamer or demo charge per 5. Regular squads should follow the squad - platoon - company formation.
And Storms have been terrible ever since GW decreed their guns were AP3 vs higher S. All of the Stormie problems disappear if their guns are S4 AP- Rapid Fire with alt profile S6 AP3 Assault 1 Gets Hot! At low power, they're OK, and a bit better all around. But turn the power up, and they're a threat to anything on the board with a balanced risk reward. The big problem is that GW doubled down with a separate Storm book. At this rate, the best "fix" is to remove Storms entirely, in favor of Veterans doctrines.
Going forward, mounted (RR) / light infantry (Tallarn, Tanith) / jungle fighter (Catachan) / heavy infantry (Kasrkin) can be added, more thematic. And platoon becomes a formation of 3+ Infantry / Veteran Squads with the Command Squad losing models for "free" Junior Officer and Vox Caster upgrades.
Kanluwen wrote: Hotshot Lasgun--deleted.
Replaced with "Hellguns"
Fire modes:
"Stable"--30" S4 AP3 Rapid Fire
"Overcharged"--15" S6 AP3 Assault 3
Special Rules: Capacitor--A model with a Hellgun requires a specialized powerplant strapped to their back. This powerplant contains the coolant and stabilization systems for the Hellgun's enhanced plant.
Hellguns can be fired in two modes. When fired in the "Overcharged" mode, roll a D6 for each model in the squad as though they were firing a weapon with the "Gets Hot" rule.
On a roll of a 1, that model's shots have the Instant Death rule.
Not only is this unrealistic wishlisting, but the Instant death rule is OP. We will not be getting S4 on Hot shots, nor alternate fire modes. It's just not something I could ever see GW giving the Guard, even for Stormtroopers. We'll be lucky if Stormtroopers get buffed at all, they were bad last edition and they are bad now. What they really need is a point cost reduction.
Instant Death when your model just potentially blew itself up after firing is far from OP...
In any regards, I posted the "silly" statline so we can work from there. The whole point for the "stable" profile is for it to be a baseline to work with. Because really, who is going to argue that S4 AP3 is broken when it's a single shot on a Stormtrooper?
And while yeah, "AP3 pigeonholes them into Marine hunters"--3+ saves are not exactly rare anymore. Crisis Suits, some Aspects, some Necron units, etc.
AP3 shouldn't be as rare as it is in the Guard list. Either bump Autocannons up to S7 AP3 or make Stormtroopers more reliable for dealing with those units.
In any regards, I posted the "silly" statline so we can work from there. The whole point for the "stable" profile is for it to be a baseline to work with. Because really, who is going to argue that S4 AP3 is broken when it's a single shot on a Stormtrooper?
SM players, who'll bitch about how 3+ saves mean nothing anymore, and that IG should only be allowed Str 3 Ap - weapons.
In any regards, I posted the "silly" statline so we can work from there. The whole point for the "stable" profile is for it to be a baseline to work with. Because really, who is going to argue that S4 AP3 is broken when it's a single shot on a Stormtrooper?
SM players, who'll bitch about how 3+ saves mean nothing anymore, and that IG should only be allowed Str 3 Ap - weapons.
Trust me. I've seen it happen.
Wow, I like my local SM players in comparison - they either pity me if I'm using my original list and are irritated if I'm bringing my basilisk.
Ultimately there should be no perfect or excellent armies - every army should have weaknesses and strengths, same with units - right now it feels like what sells gets better and better and what doesn't sell good is ignored - in ten years it'll be Codex: Tau, Codex: Eldar and Codex: "Casual Armies"
But first what the Guard needs is points reductions for most of the ground vehicles and all the elites choices - the roughriders doctrine idea is very good, and would allow some fun wargear selections and fluffy creations. Overall its a good codex, we have to share the universe with really good armies.
In any regards, I posted the "silly" statline so we can work from there. The whole point for the "stable" profile is for it to be a baseline to work with. Because really, who is going to argue that S4 AP3 is broken when it's a single shot on a Stormtrooper?
SM players, who'll bitch about how 3+ saves mean nothing anymore, and that IG should only be allowed Str 3 Ap - weapons.
In any regards, I posted the "silly" statline so we can work from there. The whole point for the "stable" profile is for it to be a baseline to work with. Because really, who is going to argue that S4 AP3 is broken when it's a single shot on a Stormtrooper?
SM players, who'll bitch about how 3+ saves mean nothing anymore, and that IG should only be allowed Str 3 Ap - weapons.
Trust me. I've seen it happen.
One of my regular opponents is an SM player. He regularly whines about how my AP3 and AV 14/13/10 tanks are OP. This is the same player whom spams Demi Company transports and Librarian Conclaves and brings Primarchs to games all the bloody time.
Oh, and command tanks are OP too apparently. And Veterans with Camouflage gear because 4+/3+ cover saves are broken. But Ignores cover AP5 Specialist munitions and Legion of the Damned spam are fine.
In any regards, I posted the "silly" statline so we can work from there. The whole point for the "stable" profile is for it to be a baseline to work with. Because really, who is going to argue that S4 AP3 is broken when it's a single shot on a Stormtrooper?
SM players, who'll bitch about how 3+ saves mean nothing anymore, and that IG should only be allowed Str 3 Ap - weapons.
Trust me. I've seen it happen.
One of my regular opponents is an SM player. He regularly whines about how my AP3 and AV 14/13/10 tanks are OP. This is the same player whom spams Demi Company transports and Librarian Conclaves and brings Primarchs to games all the bloody time.
Oh, and command tanks are OP too apparently. And Veterans with Camouflage gear because 4+/3+ cover saves are broken. But Ignores cover AP5 Specialist munitions and Legion of the Damned spam are fine.
Ikr?
There's one SM player who I have never once beaten in the TT (he's pretty damn good at tactics - uses a 5E parking lot), who will happily send several hours bitching that an army other than Ultramarines got a shiny new toy, and then proceed to win flawlessly.
And then complain that one of the opponent's wargear choices shouldn't be allowed because "how can X kill a space marine, it makes no sense". X being any of the following: Ork Boy, Grot, Imperial Guardsman (of any stripe), Eldar Guardian, Tau Infantry.
And doesn't understand how an IG sergeant with power weapon can kill a Sternguard sergeant in melee.
One of my regular opponents is an SM player. He regularly whines about how my AP3 and AV 14/13/10 tanks are OP. This is the same player whom spams Demi Company transports and Librarian Conclaves and brings Primarchs to games all the bloody time.
Oh, and command tanks are OP too apparently. And Veterans with Camouflage gear because 4+/3+ cover saves are broken. But Ignores cover AP5 Specialist munitions and Legion of the Damned spam are fine.
My SM opponents think Leman Russ tanks are undercosted, but other than that they're pretty sympathetic towards the current state of IG - and our infantry in particular.
One of them was genuinely surprised when I told him that a guardsman costs 5pts (I believe he thought they'd be 3-4pts).
One of my regular opponents is an SM player. He regularly whines about how my AP3 and AV 14/13/10 tanks are OP. This is the same player whom spams Demi Company transports and Librarian Conclaves and brings Primarchs to games all the bloody time.
Oh, and command tanks are OP too apparently. And Veterans with Camouflage gear because 4+/3+ cover saves are broken. But Ignores cover AP5 Specialist munitions and Legion of the Damned spam are fine.
My SM opponents think Leman Russ tanks are undercosted, but other than that they're pretty sympathetic towards the current state of IG - and our infantry in particular.
One of them was genuinely surprised when I told him that a guardsman costs 5pts (I believe he thought they'd be 3-4pts).
Yup...
The reason I tried to make that distinction is it's not symptomatic of Space Marine players alone.
It's something that can happen to the best of us players at the worst of times or the worst of us players at the best of times. So let's not just turn this into a thread bashing SM players because you know one who complains, and just instead focus on AM.
do they need to be fixed? I haven't noticed many glaring issues, it's a fairly solid book, or is this more of a "I want X or Y" thing? not trying to be rude, though.
*A roll of "Hit" on the scatter dice must be re-rolled.
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Brennonjw wrote: do they need to be fixed? I haven't noticed many glaring issues, it's a fairly solid book, or is this more of a "I want X or Y" thing? not trying to be rude, though.
Yes, and both.
This is about bringing the IG back in line with the other codexes, plus some rampant wishlisting.
Brennonjw wrote: do they need to be fixed? I haven't noticed many glaring issues, it's a fairly solid book, or is this more of a "I want X or Y" thing? not trying to be rude, though.
They do and they don't.
Like any pre-Decurion book, it suffers from an issue of "Too many things that you can take and too few slots". They also suffer from being a primarily Robin Cruddace designed book and his "It's been in books before, so I'm not going to drastically revamp it" approach.
Add to it as well the necessity of outfitting Sergeants for CC(why can't I keep a Lasgun on my Sergeant?), and if you want to give them anything you're paying Space Marine prices and it leads to a very confusing book.
Brennonjw wrote: do they need to be fixed? I haven't noticed many glaring issues, it's a fairly solid book, or is this more of a "I want X or Y" thing? not trying to be rude, though.
Well, if we where playing 5th edition then the book would be fine. However with the recent power explosion and the sudden introduction of Hull Points (GRRR) the IG codex has gone from weakness to weakness to the point that armies such as Orks and Chaos Marines can literally walk over us.
Most of the units are over priced for what they do and some of them (Rough Riders, Storm Troopers, etc) have been in dire need of a fix for several editions.
Brennonjw wrote: do they need to be fixed? I haven't noticed many glaring issues, it's a fairly solid book, or is this more of a "I want X or Y" thing? not trying to be rude, though.
"Solid" is very much debatable. A lot of units are just abysmal, and nothing in the book can be described as 'top tier'.
The thing is, it wasn't a strong book when it came out - it suffered a number of unnecessary nerfs since 5th, but nothing was done to help the units that had been worthless for years.
Moreover, it's suffering from a similar problem as DE - in that its remained virtually unchanged, whilst the game advanced around it. We're in an edition were armies can have multiple-shot haywire guns on basic troops, and when races can casually spam D-weapons. There are gargantuan creatures and super heavies in normal games, and armies can be made up entirely of such.
Basically, most of our stuff has been rendered obsolete. Lasguns can't even touch a lot of armies these days, let alone pose any kind of threat to them. AV14 doesn't matter when everyone and their dog has Grav, Haywire, D-weapons etc. Meanwhile, our own weapons haven't kept pace with enemy defences - with MCs (and now gargantuan creatures) posing a particular problem, since our blasts are terrible against them. And, we'rein a similar situation against a lot of vehicles.
Really, our only gimmick is the ability to spam stuff. But, that's simply not an advantage anymore. Not when formations allow other armies to spam more effective units, and get additional bonuses for doing so.
To put it bluntly, there's very little we can do that other races can't do better.
Selym wrote: Imperial Armour 1 allows that with the Armoured Battle Group army. However, the Russes are waaay more expensive than in the current AM codex.
And there doth the problem emerge. Most of the Russ variants are already slightly over priced. In the IA book ALL of them are.
Selym wrote: Imperial Armour 1 allows that with the Armoured Battle Group army. However, the Russes are waaay more expensive than in the current AM codex.
Because they were priced in line with the previous book.
A lot of the wargear options from Battlegroup would be great for the Codex though. +1 Hull Point, a 4+ save against Immobilize...
Selym wrote: Imperial Armour 1 allows that with the Armoured Battle Group army. However, the Russes are waaay more expensive than in the current AM codex.
Because they were priced in line with the previous book.
A lot of the wargear options from Battlegroup would be great for the Codex though. +1 Hull Point, a 4+ save against Immobilize...
I take the upgrades from it for my vanilla IG. After all, they are the same tanks so it stands to reason that they would have access to the same wargear right?
Selym wrote: Imperial Armour 1 allows that with the Armoured Battle Group army. However, the Russes are waaay more expensive than in the current AM codex.
Because they were priced in line with the previous book.
A lot of the wargear options from Battlegroup would be great for the Codex though. +1 Hull Point, a 4+ save against Immobilize...
I take the upgrades from it for my vanilla IG. After all, they are the same tanks so it stands to reason that they would have access to the same wargear right?
While logically speaking, yeah they would--you can't really do that without informing your opponent.
Selym wrote: Imperial Armour 1 allows that with the Armoured Battle Group army. However, the Russes are waaay more expensive than in the current AM codex.
Because they were priced in line with the previous book.
A lot of the wargear options from Battlegroup would be great for the Codex though. +1 Hull Point, a 4+ save against Immobilize...
I take the upgrades from it for my vanilla IG. After all, they are the same tanks so it stands to reason that they would have access to the same wargear right?
While logically speaking, yeah they would--you can't really do that without informing your opponent.
I have taken the *Its FW so its legal route*. That and my regular opponents are: Grey Knights, Dark Angels, Space Wolves and that Space Marine player whom was attempting to restrict me on my tanks whom I mae a thread about a while back and of whom brings bloody Primarchs to nearly every battle.
Brennonjw wrote: do they need to be fixed? I haven't noticed many glaring issues, it's a fairly solid book
The army has had issues since 6E came around, and the codex that came out in 2014 didn't fix many and created a few more.
First, the army has terrible internal balance, and half the units in the book never get used.
Second, most of its unit pricing is still stuck in a 4E/5E paradigm, and many of those units were bad there too.
Third, with the massive boosts in survivability, mobility, and firepower of newer 7E armies, IG simply don't match up. Try playing IG against Necrons for instance, it's almost an auto-defeat. Between stuff being much more resilient, and the diffusion of weapons with effects like Gauss, Haywire, Destroyer, and Grav, it's unreasonably difficult for IG armor to survive long enough for what it needs to do, and IG infantry can be swept aside with contemptuous ease making screening units or infantry fire support largely meaningless.
Vaktathi wrote: they're also really not supposed to be "power armor" hunters either, they're commando assault units, and they should have weapons and rules that reflect that. AP3 is just a crutch to try and make them interesting, but doesn't really reflect what they should be about.
I agree. In order to make scions the elite commandos they should be, make them the new veterans and scratch veterans from the codex entirely. Veterans were introduced to the game in the spirit of giving IG players a conversion project and the opportunity to make a truly unique team that has been fighting together for years and has developed its own character and nuisances. When I think veterans, I think Predator. A small team of commandos where everybody has a different weapon/fighting style and a different specialization, but who work together like a well-oiled machine.
As it is now, every IG player just puts Cadian models on the table and calls them veterans with carapace armour. It's lazy power-gaming with no respect for story and background. If you want BS4 so badly, go play SM.
Vaktathi wrote: they're also really not supposed to be "power armor" hunters either, they're commando assault units, and they should have weapons and rules that reflect that. AP3 is just a crutch to try and make them interesting, but doesn't really reflect what they should be about.
As it is now, every IG player just puts Cadian models on the table and calls them veterans with carapace armour. It's lazy power-gaming with no respect for story and background. If you want BS4 so badly, go play SM.
NO. Nononono.nooononono. no.
Veterans are about the only decent troops choice that we have right now and quite frankly they are needed. the BS 4 is a good thing and we should keep it for them. Storm Troopers need a massive price reduction and the ability to outflank, have pinning on all their weapons, come with camouflage gear as standard and have better weapons - S4 AP4 Assault 3 with an 18" range would be good. Then and only then can we start looking at them as viable again. Oh and possibly BS 5. Just to make the little Timmy's and their Space Smurf army cry.
Besides my Veteran army is composed of British WW2 infantry and German WW2 infantry I dont use Carapace, I use Forward Sentries (4+/3+ cover save FTW) and only my specific Engineers/Pioneers sections have the Demolitions doctrines. They most definitely look the part!
master of ordinance wrote: Besides my Veteran army is composed of British WW2 infantry and German WW2 infantry I dont use Carapace, I use Forward Sentries (4+/3+ cover save FTW) and only my specific Engineers/Pioneers sections have the Demolitions doctrines. They most definitely look the part!
That case is the exception, not the rule. Veterans are our only decent troop choice because they have BS4 and it baffles me that they've somehow managed to develop the same marksmanship skills as genetically and technologically augmented space marines who are also veterans of dozens if not hundreds of battles. BS4 just doesn't make sense in an IG army. I don't care how many war-zones they've seen. I'm not saying scrap the idea of veterans entirely, just change them to reflect what veterans should be. Give them more flexibility in their weapon choices, boost their leadership, give them infiltrate, give them cover save bonuses, toss in special wargear, something...
As it is now, every IG player just puts Cadian models on the table and calls them veterans with carapace armour. It's lazy power-gaming with no respect for story and background. If you want BS4 so badly, go play SM.
Make normal guardsmen worth a damn and we'll talk.
vipoid wrote: Make normal guardsmen worth a damn and we'll talk.
Then you're playing the wrong army. They're not supposed to matter and they're not supposed to be worth a damn. They're kids conscripted at the age of 18, given a gun and told to go fight a war and they win wars through endurance and brutality, not specialization. If you want specilization, that's what the space marines are for.
Then you're playing the wrong army. They're not supposed to matter and they're not supposed to be worth a damn. They're grunts conscripted at the age of 18, given a gun and told to go fight a war and they win wars through endurance and brutality.
My apologies for expecting a unit be worth its point cost. Evidently I'm playing the wrong game.
They have to be worth something to have value on the table as a playing piece.
Likewise, conscripts are just that, conscripts. Guardsmen are well trained troops, often the best their worlds have to offer and tithed off the top 10% of the PDF, and many regiments are very highly trained and lavishly equipped. And that's why we have the array of Conscript-Guardsmen-Veteran units for troops.
The problem is that, because of the core rules of the game and the functionality of the units in question, Veterans are the obvious default choice because they're the ones that can be made to work most consistently.
It's one thing for a Guardsmen to not really be worth much, but they have to pull their weight, and unfortunately, between the core rules, codex bloat, and the scale the game plays at now, that's just not typically possible. There's no place for lasgun wielding grunts in a game dominated by superheavies, D weapons, BS7 Haywire wielding infantry, and 13pt Necrons that are harder to kill with Lasguns than 40pt Terminators.
vipoid wrote: My apologies for expecting a unit be worth its point cost. Evidently I'm playing the wrong game.
Oh, they definitely need a drop in points, no argument here and IG is horribly outmatched in the 7th edition meta, but introducing more veteran type elite units is not the way to go about it as it undermines what the IG is supposed to be.
vipoid wrote: My apologies for expecting a unit be worth its point cost. Evidently I'm playing the wrong game.
Oh, they definitely need a drop in points, no argument here and IG is horribly outmatched in the 7th edition meta, but introducing more veteran type elite units is not the way to go about it as it undermines what the IG is supposed to be.
You're missing my point or, at least, not making an effort to understand. Yes, the new 7th edition codices for Eldar, Necrons and Space Marines with all their formations and special rules and free stuff make the IG codex laughable. What you're failing to consider is that IG will also get a 7th edition codex complete with formations and special rules and all sorts of flashy toys and we'll probably see it early next year. That's why this thread was started, to talk about things the new IG codex needs.
I don't deny that IG needs a power-boost. We're on the same page and I understand where you're coming from. I just don't think pushing players to more veteran spam is the way to do it.
vipoid wrote: My apologies for expecting a unit be worth its point cost. Evidently I'm playing the wrong game.
Oh, they definitely need a drop in points, no argument here and IG is horribly outmatched in the 7th edition meta, but introducing more veteran type elite units is not the way to go about it as it undermines what the IG is supposed to be.
But if they were made to suck more, it wouldn't help much with a points drop. Instead of one troop choice we have now, we would have 0 troops worth taking. Giving IG more elite choice wouldn't help either. there are 3 slots for elite units, and they have too low resilience to be worth a damn. If my troops would suddenly work, and my elite would have to carry my army, but be worse resilient then marine scouts, the army would have no sense.
Oh, they definitely need a drop in points, no argument here and IG is horribly outmatched in the 7th edition meta, but introducing more veteran type elite units is not the way to go about it as it undermines what the IG is supposed to be.
That's the thing though - a points drop isn't enough.
The problem with guardsmen isn't that they're too expensive, it's that they don't do anything.
Lasguns in the current meta are beyond worthless. So, what you're left with is 10 men, where only 1 is actually doing anything (i.e. the lone guardsman allowed to carry a special weapon). And, with BS3, you need 2 whole squads in order to average a single hit with that special weapon.
So, we're currently at 20 men for 1 melta/plasma hit.
This is why veterans are the only troops that see any play - because guardsmen currently take inefficiency to new levels.
Everyone, quickly invent a new unit you wanna see, be it lulzy or srs biznis.
*shrug* You asked for it
Banshee Rocket Artillery 50 pts
FA 12 SA 10 RA 10 HP 3 BS 3 Open Topped, Vehicle
Wargear: Searchlight, Smoke Launchers, Hull-mounted Heavy Bolter, Rocket Array
Rocket Array
R: 48” S: 4 Ap:- Barrage 2, Swarm of Rockets, Large Blast
Swarm of Rockets: Any model hit by the Rocket Array is hit twice.
Chem-Rockets
R: 36” S: 4 Ap: - Barrage 2, Swarm of Rockets, large Blast, Fleshbane
Krak Rockets
R: 36” S: 6 Ap: 4 Barrage 2 Blast, Swarm of Rockets
Options
You can have up to additional banshee’s in the squadron….50pts each
Any Banshee can take any of the following Ammunition
-Krak Rockets….10 pts
-Chem Rockets….25pts
Any Banshee can replace it’s hull-mounted Heavy Bolter with a Heavy Flamer….free
Any Banshee can take any of the following
-Vox….5pts
-Dozer Blade……5 pts
-Pintle Mounted Heavy Stubber or Storm Bolter….5 pts
-Recovery Gear…..5 pts
-Extra Armour….10 pts
-Fire Barrels…..10 pts
-Camo-Netting…..10 pts
Bombardier Heavy SPG 120pts
FA 14 SA 12 RA 10 HP 4 BS 3 Heavy, Tank
Wargear: Searchlight, Smoke launchers, Hull-mounted Heavy Battle Cannon
May Take up to two additional Bombardiers……120pts each
Can take a veteran crew (BS 4).....10pts
Can Replace it’s Heavy Battle Cannon with any of the following
-Hunter Heavy AT Cannon….30pts
-Devastator Cannon….30pts
May take any of the following
-Vox….5pts
-Dozer Blade……5 pts
-Pintle Mounted Heavy Stubber or Storm Bolter….5 pts
-Recovery Gear…..5 pts
-Extra Armour….10 pts
-Fire Barrels…..10 pts
-Camo-Netting…..10 pts
Heavy Battle Cannon
R: 60” S: 9 Ap: 2 Large Blast, Ordinance 1
Hunter Heavy AT Cannon
R: 72” S: D Ap: 1 Ordinance 1
Devastator Cannon
R: 24” S: D Ap: 1 Large Blast Ordnance 1
Dragon Medium Tank 60 pts Fast Attack
BS 3 A F 12 S 12 R 10 HP 3
Unit Type: Vehicle (Tank, Fast)
Unit Composition: 1 Dragons
Wargear: Turret-Mounted Autocannon
Hull-mounted Heavy Bolter
Smoke Launchers
Searchlight
Options
May Take up to two additional Dragons……60pts each
Can take a veteran crew (BS 4).....10pts
May replace it’s Autocannon with any of the following
-Assualt Cannon……….5pts
-Lascannon…….5pts
-Twin-Linked Autocannon…10pts
-Battle Cannon…….10pts
-Vanquisher Battle Cannon…..10pts
-Twin-Linked Assualt Cannon…..15pts
May take one of the following
-Heavy bolted Sponsons….15pts
-Heavy Flamer Sponson……15pts
Can replace it’s hull mounted Heavy Bolter with one of the following
-Heavy Flamer…..free
-Auocannon……5pts
May take any of the following
-Dozer Blade……5 pts
-Pintle Mounted Heavy Stubber or Storm Bolter….5 pts
-Recovery Gear…..5 pts
-Extra Armour….10 pts
-Fire Barrels…..10 pts
-Camo-Netting…..10 pts
Allow SWT and/or HWT join infantry blobs. Then Infantry squads become extra wound markers to protect some guns that actually work.
Then add some orders to give special rules to said blobs for a turn: interceptor or skyfire or whatever might be useful for a turn in addition to what we already have.
It makes no logical sense for veterans to operate independantly on the level they do. Regardless of how experienced a unit gets, it does not forgoe its command structure. Either make them a part of the Platoon: an attatched unit from a more experienced platoon sent to train the new guys, or the only remaining men from the platoon to survive from the last campaign, or something.
As they are now they operate like some Special Forces- regular joe hybrid that just doesn't make sense to me. The Scions are the SF guys, so what are veterans really?
It makes no logical sense for veterans to operate independantly on the level they do. Regardless of how experienced a unit gets, it does not forgoe its command structure. Either make them a part of the Platoon: an attatched unit from a more experienced platoon sent to train the new guys, or the only remaining men from the platoon to survive from the last campaign, or something.
As they are now they operate like some Special Forces- regular joe hybrid that just doesn't make sense to me. The Scions are the SF guys, so what are veterans really?
The way I typically see it when I build armies around Vets, is that the entire force is basically a platoon. Having 4 Vet squads and a CCS is pretty analgous to a Platoon with a PCS and 4 Infantry Squads, you're just bumping the command level up to the entire FoC rather than confining it to a single FoC slot.
The *real* reason some IG players take Vets, is because our troops are so terribad that they are a tax. it is cheaper to take two Vet units than to take one platoon. And on average they will be more effective than the platoon. Cheaper and better.
Then, with the points saved, you can invest in things that actually work. Like Spess Mehreen allies and whatnot.
With Vets, you get more bang for the buck, more flexibility in use, and much more utility when mechanized.
Running mechanized platoons was doable under the old book to some extent, but when the new codex came out and increased the minimum cost of a mechanized platoon (before any upgrades) by 40pts, that utility tanked, especially when Veteran options like Carapace became sanely priced in comparison.
Vaktathi wrote: With Vets, you get more bang for the buck, more flexibility in use, and much more utility when mechanized.
Running mechanized platoons was doable under the old book to some extent, but when the new codex came out and increased the minimum cost of a mechanized platoon (before any upgrades) by 40pts, that utility tanked, especially when Veteran options like Carapace became sanely priced in comparison.
Maybe if you could make part of the platoon veterean, and not others? Say a twenty point upgrade for full squads and 15 for HWS. Ten for PCS
Each commissars from this detachment may be assigned to any AM squad (except hobits) prior to deployment, or may all be attached to any one command squad. Each commissar gains one of the following special rules (choose during list creation): Deep Strike, Preferred Enemy, Tank Hunter, Outflank, Adamantium will, Fear, Hit and Run, Interceptor, Monster Hunter, Night Vision or Eternal Warrior.
No Commissar in this formation may chose the same USR as another Commissar in this formation.
You may run one of these formations for each Company Command Squad in your force.
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Selym wrote: Yeah, 4 ppm for IG and 2ppm for conscripts would be about right.
105 points for a minimum platoon wouldn't be too bad.
On the one hand yes, on the other hand; I think that if they are too cheap it makes playing any type of guard more time consuming and unwieldy. In a tournament atmosphere a full infantry list with 4 point models base, and plenty of option for 2ppm units unmanageable.
To me when I think about a fix for the dex, I think how can this army work better by its self without further empowering the obvious current unbalance of allied detachments. If we make the blob squads cheaper, then it really benefits SM lists more than AM lists. just my two cents though.
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Selym wrote: The *real* reason some IG players take Vets, is because our troops are so terribad that they are a tax. it is cheaper to take two Vet units than to take one platoon. And on average they will be more effective than the platoon. Cheaper and better.
Then, with the points saved, you can invest in things that actually work. Like Spess Mehreen allies and whatnot.
You have a point here that I missed.
I need to consider this, but still I am not certain that cheaper ppm is the solution.
Ideally I would like to see platoons get something other than unlocking better units or orking it up blob style.
How about this; Platoon Command Squad special rule;
Orders Relayed: Any time a Company Command Squad successfully issues an order to a platoon command squad the order is automatically issued for free to each squad taken as part of that platoon.
Does that boost regular line infantry enough to make them different from Vets?
The problem with your order relay rule is again that Infanty squad stock weapons are useless and he upgrades to few. Why bother giving Tank Hunters or Ignores Cover to two squads with poor weapons when you can give it to a superior squad which costs less usually, and has better BS and weapons? And FRF SRF on twenty or more lash a just ensures that we put out more fire that does practically no damae at all.
saithor wrote: The problem with your order relay rule is again that Infanty squad stock weapons are useless
I want to reinforce that the Orders Relayed rule would apply to all units purchased as part of a platoon thus perhaps making HWS usable (though perhaps still the points are too high) and certainly applying to SWSs and the command squads themselves. Certainly it was really only a shot in the dark, I think there is probably a better wording for it to say the least, and maybe certain orders could apply differently to different squad types.
I will attest though that FRFSRF seems like it could have a more streamlined rules set, that provides similar results with less time consuming extr rolls combined often with re-roles and order roles and re-rolled orders, it stacks up on time to shoot and often has little result. Other times it kills a flyrant outright.
On a completely different note what would you all say to being able to combine up to one SWS or HWS into one Infantry Squad instead of Inf squads with each other?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Or how about an order like this ish? Focused Fire- The ordered squad fires all lasguns at the target unit, then one to wound roll is made counting its Str equal to the number of hits but retaining normal AP
thus at 12" range your INF squad with no upgrades on average could put out one Str 10 shot. At 24" they could put out one Str 5 shot on average, better with prescience.
But that is just runing vet squads with lower BS with extra heavy weapons instead of special weapons.
The problem with orders are two folds. They are cast on sometimes one or two weapons per squad that is bs 3, and those that affect the whole squad do not help much because the basic IG weapon is bad.
Vets are good because they can unload with two or three special weapons at bs4, and orders get more return from being used on them. Also the fact that order givers die super fast in 7th ed, doesn't help IG either.
That's the thing though - it's not about needing more shots, it's that S3 just isn't useful. Too many things are outright immune, and many more take so little damage that they might as well be immune.
This was posted on the AM Improvements thread, and I think it bears repeating:
Typically-Wardian wrote: Okay. Long time lurker here, but I just had to make an account to point out how incredibly OP some of your suggestions are.
> Allowing a LRBT to get 4HP is rediculous, that's Monolith territory, and russes are not great ig fortresses. They are cobat tanks. It makes no sense ot be allowed spammable Av14 4HP vehicles, especially when you can get them for 120 points apiece.
> Russ tanks are underpriced. You can easily fit ten of them into a 1,500 point list, and npbod has the kind of firepower to deal with that.
> You don't need spotters, as artillery is powerful enough as it is.
> Power weapons should not be as cheap as 10 ppm. Everyone else pays 15 points for them, why should the guard be an exception?
> 30" Salvo 2/4 weapons are broken as hell, that will kill a unit per turn, especially with infiltrate.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And Banebades are already some of the best vehicles in the game, what on earth makes you think they need to be cheaper, when they solo whole armies?
This is why IG can't have nice things...
Oh, and just to clarify - those Slavo weapons he's referring to are salvo lasguns on veterans.
- Models with the "Senior officer" special rule pass Look out sir rolls on a 2+.
As it currently stands, IG Warlords are far too easy to slay due to low toughness, weak saves, and need for a 4+ to pass a Look out sir roll.
- Tempestus Scion Platoons: Any Scion may replace its Hot-shot lasgun with a Boltgun for free (same as how Tempestors/Primes can swap for Bolt pistols for free).
vipoid wrote: This was posted on the AM Improvements thread, and I think it bears repeating:
Typically-Wardian wrote: Okay. Long time lurker here, but I just had to make an account to point out how incredibly OP some of your suggestions are.
> Allowing a LRBT to get 4HP is rediculous, that's Monolith territory, and russes are not great ig fortresses. They are cobat tanks. It makes no sense ot be allowed spammable Av14 4HP vehicles, especially when you can get them for 120 points apiece.
> Russ tanks are underpriced. You can easily fit ten of them into a 1,500 point list, and npbod has the kind of firepower to deal with that.
> You don't need spotters, as artillery is powerful enough as it is.
> Power weapons should not be as cheap as 10 ppm. Everyone else pays 15 points for them, why should the guard be an exception?
> 30" Salvo 2/4 weapons are broken as hell, that will kill a unit per turn, especially with infiltrate.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And Banebades are already some of the best vehicles in the game, what on earth makes you think they need to be cheaper, when they solo whole armies?
This is why IG can't have nice things...
Oh, and just to clarify - those Slavo weapons he's referring to are salvo lasguns on veterans.
Holy gak, that is awful.
To be fair though, his post isn't any more cancerous than most of the posts in these threads. The penis-envy toward Marines on display in here needs to stop.
Here's an idea for how to possibly make the Storm Troopers more unique. They are described as the elite troops, so it makes sense that they would have acsess to equipment that normal guard don't. So give them the options to take stuff like Grav-guns, Needle Rifles, maybe some other weapons. This is in additions to previous suggestions about things like Mission Doctrines.
It's in the inquisition codex. It's a Fleshbane AP 2 weapon. Allow Scion squads to take 2-3 of them. It's a useful TEQ and MC hunter, but useless against Blobs and Vehicles.
saithor wrote: It's in the inquisition codex. It's a Fleshbane AP 2 weapon. Allow Scion squads to take 2-3 of them. It's a useful TEQ and MC hunter, but useless against Blobs and Vehicles.
GW has done stranger things before. I wouldn't put it past them to print the next codex with scions, and then FAQ that they are not legal without the Scions book.
Given that the topic is a new Codex, why shouldn't we assume updates and corrections in the pattern of the most recent Codices? That means formation, Baneblades in vs Storms out.
I don't think that they'll put Baneblades in. Taking a leaf out of the current SM book, the biggest HQ choice (Marneus Calgar) becomes the book's LoW option, rather than any of the SH vehicles. Baneblades are in Escalation, and putting them in the AM codex would not encourage AM players to buy Escalation.
I don't think that they'll put Baneblades in. Taking a leaf out of the current SM book, the biggest HQ choice (Marneus Calgar) becomes the book's LoW option, rather than any of the SH vehicles. Baneblades are in Escalation, and putting them in the AM codex would not encourage AM players to buy Escalation.
However orks got the stompa as a low choice as did eldar wirh the wraithknight. AM most expensive charachter is yarrick at 145 points. Nobody would take him instead of say a baneblade or its variants which are already valid low choice as per the escalation book I believe.
Given the diffusion of weapon technology, what do people think about maybe giving Guards (limited) access to Grav-weaponry?
For instance, perhaps along the lines of:
- Grav-pistol - Techpriests
- Grav-guns - Tempestus Scions, as part of the Special weapons list
- Grav-cannons - Servitors, Sentinels (Scout/Armoured/Both)
Guard blobs should be able to hold multiple objectives at once. The IG is supposed to be a rolling wall of hammers. Its also fairly well networked and should be able to coordinate holding 2 or so objectives.
Also, get rid of roughriders. No more cowboys & aliens, no more space horsies.
Cannon Fodder: If a model from this unit in any way obscures the line of fire from an enemy unit towards an allied unit, the allied unit will be granted a 5+ Invulnerable save. For each save passed, one model from this unit must be removed as a casualty, selected by the controlling player.
Automatically Appended Next Post: No need to be cheaper, just more useful.
That'd be their melee attack - when in base to base with the enemy, kill as many guardsmen as the guns of the opposing tank you wish to prevent from firing for a turn.
Automatically Appended Next Post: IG Panzer Battalion Formation:
1 Tank Commander Sqn (may be Pask) 1-2 Battle Tank Squadrons (Each must be 3 tanks) 1-2 Siege Tank Squadrons (Each must be 3 tanks) 1-3 Armoured Fist Squads (Vets Squad in Chimera) 0-1 Techpriest
Formation Bonus: -Veteran Tank Crews (Each tank in each squadron may select a different target to the other in its squadron)
-------------------------- Pros of Formation: Spammable Russes, and conservation of firepower in Sqn's
Cons of Formation: Maneuvering could be tricky, clocks in at a minimum of over 1000 points, no ObSec, no counter-assault, easy for enemies to multi-assault. --------------------------
Should be combined with these Russ buffs: -LRBT is 140 ppm -LR Demo is 150 ppm -Tank Commander may take "Ablative Armour" for +20 pts, granting +1 HP. -All Russes gain Lumbering Behemoth, ignoring the effects of Ordnance, and granting a 5+ save to glancing hits. -All Russes may take Lascannon sponsons for +40 pts -Vanquisher Cannon is now: Range 72" // Str 8 // Ap 1 // Armourbane, Vanquisher Rounds (On a penetrating hit, the Vanq deals D2 HP damage, rather than 1 HP)
[I like a light touch when changing weapons, but I did like the old 5th Edition Order System so this is my take on it. Each Order gives you something, but some also give some sort of Restriction.]
Issuing an Order: To issue an order, during the Movement Phase declare the order your officer starting with the Highest Rank is attempting to issue and select a single friendly (Only Tank Commanders can Issue Orders to Tanks) unit from Codex: Astra Militarum that is within 12" of the officer, this can be the officer’s own unit if you wish. Then move to the next Highest Rank Officer, then the next and so on.
We call this unit the ‘Ordered Unit’. The ordered unit must then take a Leadership test to see if the order has been understood and acted upon. If the test is passed, the order takes effect as specified in its description.
If the test is failed, the order does not take effect.
The 'Ordered Unit' does not prevent the ordered unit from acting later in that phase, whether the order was successful or not.
Orders cannot be issued to embarked Units or Units that previously received an order that phase (whether or not that order was successful). Unless otherwise stated, orders cannot be issued to units that are locked in combat, are falling back, or have gone to ground.
Lesser Commanders can not give orders to Higher Officers.
A Command Giving to a Platoon Command Squad may affect the Whole Platoon.
Chain of Command, Number of Orders and Command Radius: Warlord: Gains +1 Order
1st] Company Commander: May Issue any 2 Orders within 18”.
>Lord Castellan Creed: May Issue any 3 Orders (Yes if he is your Warlord this gives him 4 Orders) withing 24”
>Color Sergeant Kell: I Creed is no longer on the table may Issue any 1 Order within 12”.
>Colonel ‘Iron Hand’ Straken: May Issue 2 Orders within 18”
2nd] Commissar Yarrick: May Issue any 2 Commands within 12”
3rd] Tank Commander: May Issue any 2 Commands within 12”, but one must be a 'Tank Order'
4th] Lord Commissar: May Issue any 1 Command within 12”
5th] Platoon Commander: May Issue any 1 Command within 12”
6th] Veteran Sargent: May issue any 1 Command to his unit only.
Orders: Take Aim!: The ordered unit must make a shooting attack. When resolving this shooting attack, all models in the ordered unit have the Precision Shot special rule. The Infantry Units may not Move.
Smite at Will!: The ordered unit must make a shooting attack. When resolving this shooting attack, the ordered unit has the Split Fire special rule.
First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire!: The ordered unit must make a shooting attack. When resolving this shooting attack, all models firing with Las-Guns or Hot-Shot Las-Guns treat their Weapons as Heavy-3.
Forwards, for the Emperor!: The ordered unit must make a Move then Shoot or Shoot and Move. They may still Run during the Shooting Phase.
Move! Move! Move!: The ordered unit must Move and then in the Shooting Phase Run. When determining how far the unit Runs, roll three dice and use the highest result. They May Charge during the Assault Phase.
Suppressive Fire!: The ordered unit must make a shooting attack. When resolving this shooting attack, all weapons in the ordered unit have the Pinning special rule. Las-Guns and Hot-Shot Las-Guns become Salvo-3/2.
Fix Bayonets: The Unit can Move and fire Las-Guns and Hot-Shot Las-Guns as if they are Assault-2 at Half Range and Gain Furious Charge, but Must make an Assault attempt. Rough Riders and Ogryns/Bullgryns gain Rending. Can be used on Units that have entered out of Reserves.
Fall Back to the Next Position!: The Units Shoots and then must move (and run if needed) to the nearest cover. They Ignore Difficultly Terrain, but still must make Dangerous Terrain Checks. Any Cover they start in does not count as Cover for this Order. Once in the new Cover the Unit may go to Ground.
Bring it Down!: ‘Bring it Down!’ can only be issued by a model with the Senior Officer special rule. The ordered unit must make a shooting attack. When resolving this shooting attack, all models in the ordered unit have the Tank Hunters and Monster Hunter special rules. All Las-Guns and Hot-Shot Las-Guns gain S+1, AP-1 and become Heavy 2, but gain Gets Hot. (Las Guns become 24”, S4, AP6, Heavy-2, Gets Hot and Hot-Shot Las-Guns become 18” S4, AP2, Heavy 2, Gets Hot)
Fire on my Target!: ‘Fire on my Target!’ can only be issued by a model with the Senior Officer special rule. The ordered unit must make a shooting attack. When resolving this shooting attack, all weapons in the ordered unit have the Ignores Cover special rule.
Get Back in the Fight!: ‘Get Back in the Fight!’ can only be issued by a model with the Senior Officer special rule. Unlike other orders, ‘Get Back in the Fight!’ can only be issued to a unit that is falling back or that has gone to ground. The ordered unit immediately regroups if falling back, but it does not make a 3" move. If the unit has gone to ground, the effects of going to ground are immediately canceled instead. In either case, the ordered unit can act (shoot, run, charge etc.) normally for the remainder of the turn.
Where Are the Reinforcements!: 'Where Are the Reinforcements!’ can only be issued by a model with the Senior Officer special rule. This is the only Order that may be given to Units not already on the Table. If Successful one Unit in Reserve Immediately comes out of Reserves. This order may be Giving on Turn-1. Units coming out of Reserve may not take any other Actions.
Tank Orders: A Tank Commander can roll 2D6 at the beginning of the Shooting phase. If the total result is 9 or less (10 or Less for Tank Commander Pask), choose one of the following Tank Orders to immediately take effect.
Full Throttle!: The Tank Commander’s unit immediately moves Flat Out, moving up to 6+D6", even though they are Heavy. The Unit may not fire, but can use Smoke. No more Orders can be Issued if used on own unit.
Gunners, Kill on Sight!’: The Tank Commander’s unit immediately makes a shooting attack. The Tank Commander must shoot at a different target to the rest of his unit. The Tank Commander must resolve his shooting attack first. Once this shooting attack has been resolved, resolve the shooting attacks made by the rest of the unit. These must be at a different target, which cannot be a unit forced to disembark as a result of the Tank Commander’s initial shooting attack. No more Orders can be Issued if used on own unit.
Strike and Shroud!: The Tank Commander’s unit must make a shooting attack. After this shooting attack has been resolved, all vehicles in the unit that have not already done so must use their smoke launchers. No more Orders can be Issued if used on own unit.
Aim at the Weak Spot!: The Main Weapon gains S+1 and reduces it AP by one (The Vanquisher's S9, AP1). May only use Main weapon.
Fire At Will!: All Weapons my Fire Twice, but the Unit Can Not Move.
Into the Breach!: The Unit makes a Tank Shock Attack and can fire all Hull Weapons.
Wargear: >Regimental Standard: A regimental standard follows the same rules as a platoon standard. In addition, any friendly units from Codex: Astra Militarum within 12" of a model with a regimental standard re-roll failed Morale, Fear, Pinning and Orders tests.
>Vox Caster: Orders between Units with Vox Casters become Unlimited. If the Two Vox Casters are within the Command Radius all Orders can Be Re-Rolled.
I think the only way to keep guard on a level playing field without power creeping their stats up would be a drastic reduction in points across the codex. Even with a FRFSRF of 80+ shots on average maybe 10 of them end up wounding. Regular guardsmen should drop down to conscript points, and conscripts should be about 1-2 pts each. Leman Russ' should take point reductions across all variants and possibly even be given an extra HP. Hell, even the baneblade varients should cost less. Make ogryns and scions useful, I like the idea of tank veterans. Why should infantry have all the vet fun?
The vanquisher cannon should be boosted to st 9 ap 2, lasguns should be rapid fire assault weapons if we are going to keep them at st 3, a bayonet charge should grant guardsmen an extra strength and possibly even initiative point on the initial charge.
The guard are meant to be the most expendable force in the game, the points should reflect that.
Resin Glazed Guardsman wrote: I think the only way to keep guard on a level playing field without power creeping their stats up would be a drastic reduction in points across the codex.
Egads, please no.
It's expensive as hell to make an army already. Just make it so that units actually have uses, while keeping the same (or slightly) higher average model/unit count per army.
Erghh no. The goal is to make the army more fun to play. To me that means rolling less but more effective dice.
lasgun. s4 assault 1. The mathhammer for this is kinda nice. a 10 man squad has the exact same expected wound count vs tactical marines if they are both given frfsrf. you roll 10 less dice do way less measuring.
Thng is, Str 4 is for .50 cal HE rounds from a boltgun. The problem is the scale of a D6 does not allow for good differentiation. Keep Str 3, but allow more shots. Or add the Blind rule if the IG accomplish a certain number of hits in one shooting phase.
Selym wrote: Thng is, Str 4 is for .75 cal HE rounds from a boltgun.
Fixed that for you, fluff says .75cal, which is only a bit larger than the bore of the average shotgun.. It only better serves to emphasize your point.
Massed Fire (option 1):
For every 10 attacks made with either lasguns or laspistols by the same unit, an additional attack is also made. This attack automatically hits and uses the following information:
Strength 8, AP 2
or
Massed Fire (option 2):
For every 10 attacks made with either lasguns or laspistols by the same unit, an additional attack is also made. This attack automatically hits and uses the following information:
Strength 6, AP 5, Blast, Blind
Selym wrote: Or add Chenkov back in, and have him respawn any IG squad once. Or make it a formation thingy.
Give buffs to cannon fodder uses - increased cover saves, guaranteed LoS to Warlord etc
Vraks Renegades can take a warlord who respawns every destroyed infantry unit (greater than 15 man) on a 2+. These guys then arrive via outflank, can run 2d6, and get a 3+ cover save from intervening models rather than a 5+. It's quite strong, and I think the entire thing could be ported over. Or instead of outflank, make each side open up on a turn by turn basis. On turn 2, destroyed units can only come in on your deployment zone, on turn 3, from either flank sides, and on turn 4, you can pick the side. To represent the waves of guard overwhelming the battle line.
I think vets should mostly stay the same but have stealth as a native special rule, as well as shooting snapshots at BS3. They aren't necessarily all snipers, but they are veterans because of their quick draw accuracy and reflexes, for the most part. Let them take hot-shots, but differentiate hot-shots from hellguns, and give scions hellguns. Hot shots can get hot and keep the 18 Rapid fire profile, Hellguns are 24" Assault 2, and each Scion sergeant can give Tempestus orders. I think that differentiates them well.
Everybody gets frag and krak grenades. Guard gets 3 fortification slots instead of 1, and any infantry platoon of more than 20 men can reinforce a terrain piece. Add Imperial Navy flyers as fast attack.
If we're adding Hellguns back in, I don't want them as "just" a Scions/Stormtroopers thing.
Because they aren't. They are used by Grenadier units as well as Scions/Stormtroopers.
Making two different "loadouts" that you can choose from on Veteran Squads--such as a "Linebreaker" loadout with Hotshot Lasguns(which shouldn't have "Gets Hot" but should instead be a point of Strength lower and a point of AP higher compared to the Hellgun) and standard Flak Armor and an "Anchor" loadout with Hellguns and Carapace Armor.
In any regards, Sergeants need to be able to issue Orders. It just needs to happen. Or the entire Orders system needs to be reworked from the ground up.
Resin Glazed Guardsman wrote: I think the only way to keep guard on a level playing field without power creeping their stats up would be a drastic reduction in points across the codex.
The guard are meant to be the most expendable force in the game, the points should reflect that.
If my current 7k of Guard returns to being the 5.5k that I previously thought I had, it means I get to put 20% more of my toys on the table. I'm good with that.
Sentinels, Chimeras, Hellhounds, Russes and Baneblades are all overcosted - and these are the signature items of the Guard. RRs, Ogryns and Storms are grossly overcosted, while Ratlings are hugely underpowered.
About the only thing that's fairly costed is the basic Guardsman, but his upgrades cost too much. Where is the "lowest cost bidder" mass-producing stuff for the IG? Where the SM's pay 15 pts for an item, it's because it's handmade and gold-plated like a Rolls Royce. But the IG get a plastic and stamped steel version like a Hyundai. Carries the same people and their luggage but at 1/10 the cost. Roll the Flamer and HB into the cost, and only charge for upgrades, and they're probably OK.
Or, give us "free" stuff in a formation, like buy a CCS and 2 Platoons, and all weapon upgrades are free... That would be outstanding.
0-1 Command Squad 2-5 Infantry Squads 0-5 Heavy Weapons Squads 0-3 Special Weapons Squads 0-2 Conscript Squads
Platoon Rules: Officer's Armoury Access - If this Platoon consists of a Command Squad, 2 or more Infantry Squads and at least one other squad, all weapon upgrades become 5 points cheaper
1-1 Command Squad
2-5 Infantry Squads
0-5 Heavy Weapons Squads
0-3 Special Weapons Squads
0-2 Conscript Squads
Platoon Rules:
1 free Leman Russ Battle Tank (standard variant) may be taken for each Infantry Squad in the formation. They may be combined in a single vehicle squadron, or operate as individual units.
JohnHwangDD wrote: Eh, just give them the guns for free. Recall that SMs are getting FREE Razorbacks in their formation.
And they still pay for any/all upgrades to the Razorbacks.
So yes, they get a FREE 55 point transport which comes standard with twin-linked Heavy Bolters or can replace those for twin-linked Heavy Flamer at no points cost.
Anything beyond that upgrade costs points.
Additionally, that needs three criteria to be met:
A) You have taken a Gladius Strike Force detachment.
B) You have two Battle Demi-Companies, one led by a Chaplain and one led by a Captain.
C) The units in question be able to take a Rhino, Razorback, or Drop Pod as a Dedicated Transport.
So yeah, they get FREE Razorbacks or Drop Pods or Rhinos---but those must be Dedicated Transports, meaning they cannot be Fast Attack choices meaning they cannot be used by any unit except the one they were purchased for.
The Infantry Platoon that was listed isn't anywhere near the same thing as a Battle Demi-Company in any regards, so in my opinion it would still be silly to allow for that to happen.
Chimeras are pretty insanely priced at 65 pts for doing feth all except driving squads across the field a bit faster, they should be at half of what they cost currently.
unghh... Don't get me wrong I want the army to play uniquely and I like the guard fluff too. That said I don't want to put any more models on the table. I don't want to do more dice accounting. I want faster funner games with more strategic decisions. fluff should steer design but fun should trump everything. More fun means making the units more effective not giving us more ineffective crap. Fluff be damned.
Resin Glazed Guardsman wrote: Chimeras are pretty insanely priced at 65 pts for doing feth all except driving squads across the field a bit faster, they should be at half of what they cost currently.
Or they should be made to fit their points cost...
Blacksails wrote: I'd love for autocannons on the Chimera at 65pts, but then I feel that the Taurox doesn't have much of a defined role.
The Taurox doesn't have a defined role to begin with.
It's a lazy Cruddace styled convention--an attempt at a "Razorback" for an army that has no need for one.
Axe the stupid thing or make it strictly Tempestus then refocus the Chimera.
"Command Vehicle" can be made so that it not only affects Orders being given but also Orders being received, as an example.
Multilasers could be made a bit better without being broken--S6 AP5 or AP4 alone would be a huge boost to that Chimera's effectiveness for that 65 points.
I like the idea of some kind of 'massed fire' rule that swaps out the high number of weak shots for something stronger. Of course on a troop unit it couldn't be too OP. So a heavy 1 AP3 strength 7 shot seems reasonable to me.
Wider availability of senior officer orders would be pretty cool too. I agree that we should be looking at buffing grunts rather than making them cheaper.
GCox wrote: unghh... Don't get me wrong I want the army to play uniquely and I like the guard fluff too. That said I don't want to put any more models on the table.
The Taurox doesn't have a defined role to begin with.
It's a lazy Cruddace styled convention--an attempt at a "Razorback" for an army that has no need for one.
Axe the stupid thing or make it strictly Tempestus then refocus the Chimera.
"Command Vehicle" can be made so that it not only affects Orders being given but also Orders being received, as an example.
Multilasers could be made a bit better without being broken--S6 AP5 or AP4 alone would be a huge boost to that Chimera's effectiveness for that 65 points.
Oh, I agree, I'd ditch the Taurox in a heartbeat if I could.
What if Multilasers were heavy 4? Didn't the scatter laser get a boost from 3 to 4 some editions ago? Would seem reasonable and generally in keeping with some of the recent power creep, for better or for worse.
The chimera just feels a bit... outdated. Having just 2 firepoints makes it a really bad transport. I mean, considering veterans can take 3 specials and CCSs/PCSs can take 4, it's a pretty pitiful number. But don't worry - we get to fire 3 BS3 lasguns on each side. Woot. Just add 100 more to either side and they might actually accomplish something.
Also, it seems like it's trying to be all razorback-y, being a transport that doubles as a fire platform. The problem is that its weapons are beyond outdated. Anyone care about a BS3 heavy bolter and multilaser in this edition? Especially ones mounted on a non-fast transport.
Also, it seems like it's trying to be all razorback-y, being a transport that doubles as a fire platform. The problem is that its weapons are beyond outdated. Anyone care about a BS3 heavy bolter and multilaser in this edition? Especially ones mounted on a non-fast transport.
I think I would like some better Chimera weapon options and maybe some non weapon options, how about:
1. Raier Lazer destroyer uprage to heavy bolter halves transport capacity 30pts
2. Twin Linked Auto Cannon
3. Twin linked multi lazer 5pts upgrade to multi lazer
4. Radar Package- grants skyfire and interceptor to one unit within 12" during the enemy movement phase- loss of transport capacity 60pts
5. Tactical Data Package- orders checks within 6" including MoF orders use embarked CO Commander's Leadership, Halves Transport capacity 30pts
Also on a separate note; has anyone wishlisted alternate rounds for Mortars? Smoke rounds, Illumination Rounds, Marking Rounds?
The Radar package at a 60pts upgrade (I'm assuming) and losing transport is a non-starter. Paying 125pts for an AV12 vehicle with mediocre weapons and the ability to grant a situational USR to a single unit is...very underwhelming.
If it was a 10pts upgrade and halved capacity so command squads could take them, you'd be on to something.
The Radar package at a 60pts upgrade (I'm assuming) and losing transport is a non-starter. Paying 125pts for an AV12 vehicle with mediocre weapons and the ability to grant a situational USR to a single unit is...very underwhelming.
If it was a 10pts upgrade and halved capacity so command squads could take them, you'd be on to something.
Radar Package for 60 points, removes the turret mounted weapon and leaves transport capacity untouched.
If granted to a squad as part of a platoon, the whole platoon gains the ability.
Also, it seems like it's trying to be all razorback-y, being a transport that doubles as a fire platform. The problem is that its weapons are beyond outdated. Anyone care about a BS3 heavy bolter and multilaser in this edition? Especially ones mounted on a non-fast transport.
I think I would like some better Chimera weapon options and maybe some non weapon options, how about:
1. Raier Lazer destroyer uprage to heavy bolter halves transport capacity 30pts
Nope, nope, nope.
The Laser Destroyer array is a HUGE thing. It's not like sticking Lascannons all over a Valkyrie and then making extra space for batteries(which is still dumb). It was a Leman Russ hulled weapon as it took a significant amount of space, and even then firing the dang thing would immobilize the vehicle--hence why it was an ambush vehicle.
2. Twin Linked Auto Cannon
3. Twin linked multi lazer 5pts upgrade to multi lazer
So basically we're just taking the cheapest route of "if we twin-linked it, it might not suck as bad!"?
It will still be bad. Twin-linking these two options isn't the answer.
4. Radar Package- grants skyfire and interceptor to one unit within 12" during the enemy movement phase- loss of transport capacity 60pts
5. Tactical Data Package- orders checks within 6" including MoF orders use embarked CO Commander's Leadership, Halves Transport capacity 30pts
These two should be rolled together--except for the silliness of "6 inches".
Orders are too short-ranged to begin with and anything that boosts up their usage should be encouraged. Playing into the whole "We can really only work at shouting distance" nonsense should be discouraged.
1) Orders should apply to an entire Platoon and its supporting elements.
2) Orders shouldn't have a range limitation as long as the officer and units have vox-casters.
Anyways--remove Skyfire and Interceptor to one unit, change it to "Skyfire, Interceptor, Tank Hunters, Monster Hunters, Split-Fire or Stealth during your movement phase--lasting until your next movement phase to all units within 12 inches"
Require the upgrade to be on a Company Command Squad Chimera and cost more than 60 points.
Also on a separate note; has anyone wishlisted alternate rounds for Mortars? Smoke rounds, Illumination Rounds, Marking Rounds?
A long time ago, yes.
Realistically they become more of a hassle than anything else, necessitating lots of markers or custom built stuff.
Radar Package for 60 points, removes the turret mounted weapon and leaves transport capacity untouched.
If granted to a squad as part of a platoon, the whole platoon gains the ability.
works for me.
How about a Communications package that makes the range of all orders to and from vox relays infinite range, also available by sacrificing the turret but for much cheaper.
I like the idea of orders without range, and especially the whole orders affect the entirety of a platoon (mostly because it gives a platoon CMD sqd with a commissar great), but it seems very powerful in comparison to what other armies can do. It should come with some downside. In this case the ability is mounted on a 12AV vic.
Just make vox-casters allow infinite range on orders. Fluffwise, they're a Vietnam-style PRC-25. Maybe then they'd be worth 5 points on basic infantry squads.
The Guard warlord trait that gives extra range to orders would have to be changed, though.
I'd like to see the Executioner's Gets Hot roll changed to a single roll for all three shots, or just a 15-20 point cost boost and change it back to no Gets Hot.
I really, really like the idea of "ordering a platoon command squad automatically gives the order to all squads in the platoon." Very fluffy, and generally how it should work.
Redleg wrote: Also on a separate note; has anyone wishlisted alternate rounds for Mortars? Smoke rounds, Illumination Rounds, Marking Rounds?
The only way I see Mortars being remotely useful is if their points are dropped down dramatically, say 20 pts for 3 of them in a squad and maybe make them 2 shots each.
I like the idea of Illumination rounds, maybe a unit hit by them loses Shrouded or even make them an IG version of marker lights?
A Mortar should be the free basic weapon, that the squad can upgrade to HF / HB for +5 pts, ML for +10 pts, etc. It's just a metal tube with a couple of legs, for pity's sake. It takes almost no tech to make one. Even the base plate can be scrap.
Making them Heavy 2? That's not a terrible idea, but you might have to charge a few points vs free.
Radar Package for 60 points, removes the turret mounted weapon and leaves transport capacity untouched.
If granted to a squad as part of a platoon, the whole platoon gains the ability.
/bam
I still find it very underwhelming for 60pts. Skyfire/Interceptor are certainly good USR, especially to turn them on or off as desired, but for 60pts? I'd pass. Plus, I'd much rather have it with halved capacity and retain the extra weapon just so that PCSs and the like can ride in them and act as support to either a mechanized platoon or foot platoon. Chimeras and platoons in general would need firepower buffs in some way to make it worth 60pts in addition to the Chimera itself. Unless of course you mean its 60pts for the Chimera with the Radar Package...which I'd be totally okay with. Or half transport but retain the turret.
I guess its because I feel platoons as a whole need some love. The other squad options (heavy and specials) need transport options, voxes, and all the other upgrades basic infantry squads get, or at least let them be blobbed with the rest of the platoon..or something.
I'm also a fan of the idea of putting scout sentinels in as platoon support options, tangentially related.
JohnHwangDD wrote: A Mortar should be the free basic weapon, that the squad can upgrade to HF / HB for +5 pts, ML for +10 pts, etc. It's just a metal tube with a couple of legs, for pity's sake. It takes almost no tech to make one. Even the base plate can be scrap.
As for mortars, I think the main failure of the weapons system in the game is that it represents only the squad attached version with highly limited munition. What would most likely be a 60mm mortar (maybe upgrade-able to 81mm). That is probably fine for a line infantry upgrade, but heavy weapon teams should be armed with 81mm mortars, possibly upgrade-able to 120mm mortars. Each should have multiple munition types.
I would like to see something like this
|Weapon|Range|Type|
|60mm Mortar| 36"| small Blast Barrage|
|81mm Mortar| 12-48"| Small Blast, Barrage, Pinning|
|120mm Mortar| 18-72"| Large Blast Barrage, Pinning, Strike-down|
Munitions Available on all Mortar Systems:
Frag- S 4 Ap 5
Illum- Targets hit by blast marker lose loose any benefit from stealth (including that granted by night fighting)-units with nightvision must take a blind test.
Chem- S 1 AP-, Poison 2+ Imperial Sanction Required
Munitions available to 81mm and 120mm:
ICM-S 3 Ap 4 Ignores Cover
Willy Pete S 3 Ap 5 soul blaze
AT- S 4 Ap - Armourbane
IR illum- A target hit by IR illum, grants ignores cover to any further shooting attacks upon them from a source with nightvision (this one should be Elysium or scions only)
Orange- Forest and similar terrain hit by these munitions grant -1 cover save for the remainder of the game.
Imperial Sanction Required- Chem rounds can only be used by a force that includes an Inquisitor
Automatically Appended Next Post: Munitions available only to 120mm Mortar:
Thermite, S 8 AP 3, Reduced Blast, Thermal
Reduced Blast- these munitions are resolved with a small blast marker
Thermal- if the center hole of the marker is over a vehichle that hit is resolved at AP 1 with the Armourbane USR.
At the granularity available for 40k, I'm not sure one can distinguish the man-portable mortars at 3 levels in addition to the Artillery and vehicle-based mortars (e.g. Griffon).
The most you could do with mortars is have two fire modes, and even that would be too much for the common, man portable version that could be found in a dozen or two squads.
Probably gonna be repeating a lot of what's already been said but really liking some of the ideas people have posted about orders and feel that they could potentially improve if not solve some of the issues that imperial guard have, with out the issue of destroying the feel of being the underdog that a stats boost would cause or the damage to the wallet that a points decrease would cause. As an added bonus I think they could even out new play styles whilst keeping to the theme of the army.
The order relay idea of having PCS pass on the orders to all squads in their platoon would hugely increase the fire power of a guard force and also allow units to be deployed as MSU instead of as blobs with out losing efficiency. It would allow for a command unit to be used in that role instead of as a suicide flamer squad or cheap sniper objective holder, at the same time I don't think it would be too over powering as they are very fragile so enemy should be able to take them out and break down the chain of command; maybe taking them out could also cause a negative effect such as units being unable to receive orders from the CCS next turn due to confusion to even things out further.
One of the guards biggest issues is lack of mobility and the price hike to chimeras did nothing to improve this, having vox's increase order range would allow units to be mobile while remaining effective. On top of that having units able to receive orders while mounted in transports makes a lot of sense considering all the comms gear likely to be on board. Rather than just allowing infantry order to me issues to squads in transports I think Having a set of mechanised orders would be advantageous my suggestions would be as follows, though I would like to here feed back on this especially from those who don't play guard as it's easy to go over board and make things unbalanced the other way:
1) Going in Hot: Makes a transport open topped till the owning players next turn.
The doors are opened/ramps lowered with guns blazing to allow quick disembarkation in a hot LZ/drop off point.
This is the once I'm most worried about being over powered, as once again people could just park up and blast with everything they've got, I'm hoping that the durability lost would preventing it being an auto use every round. It would also have the advantage of giving ogryn of both types a way to get in combat (though I'd bring back the rule for a commissar being needed to persuade them aboard), also would assist with mobility and objective taking by allowing flamer and shotgun bearing vet's make a death or glory charge to capture that objective
2) Gun it! Adds 3" to normal and flat out movement
Driver opens up the throttle, to get to the ojective never mind whats between them.
Again helps with mobility, bit bland but the best I could come up with, maybe there could be a penalty to terrain tests for flavour and to make people weigh up whether its worth it.
Unsure of a third one
3) Hold ground: Transport and disembarked units can add to each others over watch if they are with in 3" of each other, and gain +1 to cover saves, but can't move next turn, flyers must go into hover mode.
Unit digs in and secures a perimeter around transport/LZ
Flavoursome but maybe a little too much, struggling to think of a suitable negative to prevent it being an auto use that makes sense other than flyers being forced into hove mode. Maybe a movement penalty of some sort next turn
The down side to separate mechanised orders, that it's yet more stuff to remember, but maybe the infantry orders could be trimmed back a little as there's a lot of dross there, and complexity can reduced by having just one level of orders by having PCS just passing on the CCS rather than having their own restricted pool.
Finally for the remaining to command squads have the scion command squad pass on orders through out their platoon (hence the changes to vox) would make scions that little more dangerous to armour when they get tank hunters, and FrFSrF and ignores cover along with being able to recover from going to ground would make them better at stealing objectives and more tempting to take in squads larger than 5.
Tank commanders should be able to give orders to other squadrons (never understood why that was the case, defeats the point of a command unit) I can't see any glaring reasons why the present orders wouldn't be fit for that, on top of that give them the abilty to issue two orders to match CCS and able to issue mechanised orders for their armoured fist escorts
Sorry for length been a few of these threads recently, found them really inspiring. Got few a ideas on unit/weapon tweaks to improve internal balance, but outside of dealing with MC's and flyers I think that the order tweaks could do a lot for making guard a bit more competitive.
The down side to separate mechanised orders, that it's yet more stuff to remember, but maybe the infantry orders could be trimmed back a little as there's a lot of dross there, and complexity can reduced by having just one level of orders by having PCS just passing on the CCS rather than having their own restricted pool.
This is where I start thinking that the whole chain of command and available orders should be based upon the type of HQ formation and/or type of core formation chosen. I think that three available HQ formations make sense, and those would be first a Large Infantry HQ selection that may include sentinels and other battalion asset like units (hardened vets, commissars, priests and maybe psykers). This formation would get the best infantry orders such as ignores cover and tank hunters and Forward for the emperor. This formation might include an optional fortification that automatically receives the 'Command Building' upgrade, allowing a bunker to be used like well a bunker gets used.
Secondly an Armor HQ section which probably needn't change much could include orders the mobility elements could easily apply to armored fist squads, possibly they could also have 'Get back in the fight' to apply to infantry squads.
Lastly an armored fist squad HQ, which hopefully would have a special character option equal to Creed or Pask (not that they are equal as of now), would be a small chimera mounted HQ with orders that improve the vehicle shooting and mobility, and possibly assault capability of armored fist squads. They may also have access to a few infantry orders or tank orders.
Finally for the remaining to command squads have the scion command squad pass on orders through out their platoon (hence the changes to vox) would make scions that little more dangerous to armour when they get tank hunters, and FrFSrF and ignores cover along with being able to recover from going to ground would make them better at stealing objectives and more tempting to take in squads larger than 5.
I think you would make scions in my example an auxiliary detachment, granting the orders relayed, and making drop commissars available
Over all I like your thoughts, and it has made me consider unit battlefield role rearrangements and a gladius style formation force org. That is something I think that AM would benefit from greatly, and could allow for cheaper cad or allied detachments for those that just want to add in some ObSec guard to a SM list, or get a few tanks or other fun stuff without having to take large numbers of comparatively worthless troops.
All those rules are fine and improve stuff. But how dot hey help us spam objectives like other armies do? Improved orders would be awesome, but my problems with orders is that the order givers die super fast with the number of impossible to counter alfa strike units. Better and cheaper russ would again be awesome, but to counter all the grav, haywire and drop pods, they would have to cost less then 100pts to realy work.
Makumba wrote: All those rules are fine and improve stuff. But how dot hey help us spam objectives like other armies do? Improved orders would be awesome, but my problems with orders is that the order givers die super fast with the number of impossible to counter alfa strike units. Better and cheaper russ would again be awesome, but to counter all the grav, haywire and drop pods, they would have to cost less then 100pts to realy work.
At this point in the game's life, it wouldn't surprise me if Leman Russes were free with certain other units taken.
Kanluwen wrote: To be fair, it's long established that Commissars are outside of the chain of command.
It's why Gaunt was such a rarity in that he was a Commissar and an Officer.
And yet a platoon sergeant can outrank a Company Commander.
Warlord traits are a different beast entirely. The Warlord rules are written so that armies which don't have HQs or so that models in Formations can have Warlords.
You pick your Warlord. It's not randomly generated or any such nonsense. You want your Company Commander to be the Warlord? Then pick him.
Warlord traits are a different beast entirely. The Warlord rules are written so that armies which don't have HQs or so that models in Formations can have Warlords.
You pick your Warlord. It's not randomly generated or any such nonsense. You want your Company Commander to be the Warlord? Then pick him.
Warlord traits are a different beast entirely. The Warlord rules are written so that armies which don't have HQs or so that models in Formations can have Warlords.
You pick your Warlord. It's not randomly generated or any such nonsense. You want your Company Commander to be the Warlord? Then pick him.
What on earth are you babbling about?
This has no relevance to anything I wrote.
You wrote that a "Platoon Sergeant can outrank a Company Commander".
So, explain how that's working please unless you're referring to Warlord traits.
Because if you're referring to a Lord Commissar? The only thing that rule affects is Lord Commissars being your Warlord if you have no Senior Officers.
Platoon Commanders(I'm assuming you mean a Platoon Commander, not a Sergeant in one of the Infantry Squads that are part of your Infantry Platoon) are Junior Officers, not Senior Officers.
You wrote that a "Platoon Sergeant can outrank a Company Commander".
So, explain how that's working please unless you're referring to Warlord traits.
Because if you're referring to a Lord Commissar? The only thing that rule affects is Lord Commissars being your Warlord if you have no Senior Officers.
Platoon Commanders(I'm assuming you mean a Platoon Commander, not a Sergeant in one of the Infantry Squads that are part of your Infantry Platoon) are Junior Officers, not Senior Officers.
I'm saying that the restriction on Lord Commissars not being your warlord if your army includes a Company Commander doesn't make sense, when the presence of a company commander doesn't stop a platoon sergeant from being your warlord.
And I do mean platoon sergeant (though platoon commanders can apparently also outrank company commanders).
I get that it's optional, but that's exactly the point. I have the option of having a platoon sergeant outrank my company commander. I have the option of having a regular commissar outrank my company commander. But, I don't have the option for my Lord Commissar to outrank my company commander.
I think the Platoon Standard would be cool/make more sense if it reduced the ld penalty during a lost combat (assault phase) by 1 or 2 (but not above normal ld) within 12 inches.
Its a flag its suppose to stand tall and give the guard courage! not add a melee wound...
easypeasylemonsquezy wrote: I think the Platoon Standard would be cool/make more sense if it reduced the ld penalty during a lost combat (assault phase) by 1 or 2 (but not above normal ld) within 12 inches.
Its a flag its suppose to stand tall and give the guard courage! not add a melee wound...
I know what you mean, but the trouble is that this still isn't a useful effect. If you've got a combined infantry squad, then you've almost certainly got a priest or commissar in it (which also stops it from falling back as a result of shooting casualties). And, if you've only got smaller squads, is this really going to help them? Stuff like the PCS, SWS, heavy weapon teams and infantry squads will fold to just about any unit in the game.
Moreover, with small units, do you even want to stay in combat? Unless I'm using a large infantry squad as a tarpit (which will have the aforementioned priest/commissar), then passing a Ld test to stay in combat usually provokes frustration on my part - as the enemy has just become immune to guns in my subsequent turn.
Honestly, something to be considered is the way battle standard bearers work in Age of Sigmar.
Different races have different unique abilities, but all share one thing: planting the battle standard grants an 18" bubble of that ability.
Come up with something cool and unique and go from there. I would love to see a standard which grants Preferred Enemy or allows you to make the units under its auspices Stubborn or grants them the Zealot special rule.
Kanluwen wrote: Honestly, something to be considered is the way battle standard bearers work in Age of Sigmar.
Different races have different unique abilities, but all share one thing: planting the battle standard grants an 18" bubble of that ability.
Come up with something cool and unique and go from there. I would love to see a standard which grants Preferred Enemy or allows you to make the units under its auspices Stubborn or grants them the Zealot special rule.
Kanluwen wrote: Honestly, something to be considered is the way battle standard bearers work in Age of Sigmar.
Different races have different unique abilities, but all share one thing: planting the battle standard grants an 18" bubble of that ability.
Come up with something cool and unique and go from there. I would love to see a standard which grants Preferred Enemy or allows you to make the units under its auspices Stubborn or grants them the Zealot special rule.
What about Counter Attack?
What about the ability to Overwatch at BS2?
I can think of few other ways to make it useful.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Some other things that I want to see:
Veteran Heavy Weapon Sections - These would actually be worth taking over the current overpriced and unreliable ones.
Veteran Special Weapon Sections - PLEASE GW, please. And whilst we are here, transport options for both of them.
Chimeras gain another two fire points and take a massive points drop.
An actual reason to take Ogryns/Bullgryns
Storm Troopers become worth the vast points expenditure per man. And whilst we are at it buff the Hellgun.
The Lasgun returned to being a viable weapon system. Right now it is outmoded by EVERYTHING.
Something that I have observed in this age of powercreep is the odd inbalance within the IG codex. The average Guardsman is actually worth 5 points. He is cheap, comes with average stats and a slightly below average weapon and average armour. The problem is that he is balance for times before things like 4+ and 3+ saves became common and before 4 became the new average for a stat line and 4+ the basic armour save. Your Guardsman is well balanced for what he gets but the real problem is not with the Guradsman himself but with the other codexes.
The new books have steadily progressed and ramped up the power level. Whereas 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 7/8 5+ used to be the base average for everything the newer codexes have steadily ramped up the baseline for the power level. Now 4 4 3/4 3/4 1 4 1 8/9 4+ is the average stat line for most basic infantry and in most cases the base price of these models has not increased at all to account for the new and improved stats. What is more these new and improved basic infantry units tend to have better equipment than your average Guardsmen such as Strength 4 guns and an AP of at least 5, come with AT grenades as standard and have one or more flashy special rules to go with them.
Given all this your average 3 3 3 3 1 3 1 7/8 5+ guardsman with his R24" S3 AP- Rapidfire lasgun is just completely outmoded. Yes his price of 5 PPM is fair.... Until you factor in the fact that every damn army has had a massive buff to its basic infantrymans capabilities with no increase to its points costs.
And this is all before yu factor in the new shiny things and specialist units/big stupid things that are now spammed by most armies.
Looking at all of this your average Guardsman just does not make the cut. Sure he is balanced, but not for this edition. Guardsmen are balanced for the older editions when basic infantry where just that, simple and basic grunts, and specialist units where extremely rare for the most part. He is balanced for a time before this blatant power inflation.
He needs a buff and a big one at that.
I would like to see a return of named characters. Those who were removed and several more. Mostly replacements for Veteran/basic Sergeants who give the squad some special abilities to compensate the thing whi the guy above me mentioned.
For example: Sniper dude who gives the squad Move through cover, shrouded and give Shread USR to sniper rifles but can't take carapace.
(representing SpecOps sneaky bas*ards)
Or
Grenadier sergeant replacement who gives the squad Relentless USR and makes opponent reroll succesfull "to wound" rolls, but the squad must take Carapace armor...
(representing the biggest (and toughest) boys with biggest toys)
And so on...
Just little guys who makes our average little guys bit more less average.
Oh, a very minor point, but would making our relic sword AP2 be too much to ask?
I mean, when 4 wound T5 2+/3+ guys can be wielding S6-7 AP2 weapons that strike at initiative, I find it hard to believe that a few S4 AP2 attacks from a T3 5++ Company Commander or Lord Commissar will somehow break the game.
But then, I'd also suggest halving the costs of all our artefacts.
vipoid wrote: Oh, a very minor point, but would making our relic sword AP2 be too much to ask?
I mean, when 4 wound T5 2+/3+ guys can be wielding S6-7 AP2 weapons that strike at initiative, I find it hard to believe that a few S4 AP2 attacks from a T3 5++ Company Commander or Lord Commissar will somehow break the game.
But then, I'd also suggest halving the costs of all our artefacts.
You mean people actually USE Imperial Guard artifacts?!
Honestly, the current relics are a bit pointless, we don't have lultastic Chapter Masters to give them to, I'd rather have all of them give bonuses to surrounding units within 12" than some silly AP 2 sword.
Woosh it around overhead and pretend to hurt Smash fether McSmashface?
*Shrugs*
I think it's a nice option to have, even if it's more for flavour than anything else. Commissars are almost always pictured with fancy swords, after all.
Now give him a badass hand cannon or two and now we're talking about something useful and badass.
Picture like a plasma pistol, but with two barrels. No! Three! Or something.
Come on, man, this is GW we're talking about - any double-barrelled plasma pistol would have to cost 50pts and get hot on any roll that isn't a 6. Because plasma pistols are already the strongest weapons in the game.
But, yeah, an upgrade to the Emperor's Benediction certainly wouldn't go amiss. Especially when I look at the stuff Skitarii get - like 5-shot pistols!
Hoyt wrote: Honestly, the current relics are a bit pointless, we don't have lultastic Chapter Masters to give them to, I'd rather have all of them give bonuses to surrounding units within 12" than some silly AP 2 sword.
Well, we already have 3 of those - the problem is that the vox one is crap, the Ld one can make your army flee and they're all overpriced. I'd also suggest removing the 'Company Commanders only' clause from the Aquila.
More importantly though, I don't think our HQs should be reliant on artefacts to produce auras. I mean, they're inevitably support units - so it seems that if they need auras then they should start with those auras, if you see what I mean.
I think what could work is if the two of them were merged into a single unit, with the following options:
- Each Ogryn may replace its Ripper gun for:
- Slabshield and Grenadier gauntlet
- Brute shield and Power weapon (or alternatively:, just Power axes)
- The entire squad may take Carapace armour
- The entire squad may take Cavalry mounts and Hunting lances
- The Bone'ead may take Melta bombs
In my opinion, Bullgryns were given the least useful Power weapon relative to their stats and purpose, and that giving them Power axes instead would be far more useful. Also, allowing them to be turned into Cavalry units would help resolve their transport issues in a possibly better way then just shrinking them down to "Bulky" (as you'd still be limited by Transport capacity) and in a way that would appeal to GW (since it would mean new models to sell).
master of ordinance wrote: [Storm Troopers become worth the vast points expenditure per man. And whilst we are at it buff the Hellgun.
Here's a random thought. What about making use of the new "Burst pistol" weapon type and turning the Hot-shot lasguns into something of a SMG, with a profile along the lines as follows:
It would still fulfill the Storm Trooper's gimmick of being a close-ranged, deep striking suicide unit while the high shot count per weapon would help make up for the weapon's low strength and low model count. Incidentally, it ties in quite well with the MT's twin-linked order and should have the same efficacy as FRFSRF for a five-man squad against MEQs.
My third and final suggestion would be for a new order called "Relay my command".; which gives the ordered unit the "Voice of command" special rule for that turn. Units that receive orders from a Senior officer - whether directly or by proxy - will also have access to Senior orders. The idea behind this is to help alleviate the problem of limited range for orders. Sure, you could have solved it instead by allowing orders to have unlimited range. my method introduces an element of risk when trying to go for long distance orders (as it requires a series of successive leadership tests).
Ratings to troops (though can't be taken as compulsory)
Done. Maybe some other little tweaks like letting lord commissars be warlords even if you have a company commander as well, but nothing major.
The codex is pretty okay. It works and will do adequately once what is actually broken (Necrons, Eldar...) is fixed.
It's certainly in a better shape than several other codices.
Much like Codex: Chaos Space Marines, it is more in need of some minor tweaks and fixes than anything major, as well as the toning down of Wraithknights, Grav and their abominable kin.
Ratings to troops (though can't be taken as compulsory)
Done. Maybe some other little tweaks like letting lord commissars be warlords even if you have a company commander as well, but nothing major.
The codex is pretty okay. It works and will do adequately once what is actually broken (Necrons, Eldar...) is fixed.
It's certainly in a better shape than several other codices.
Much like Codex: Chaos Space Marines, it is more in need of some minor tweaks and fixes than anything major, as well as the toning down of Wraithknights, Grav and their abominable kin.
There's a whole lot wrong with a grip of units beyond just Ratlings and RR's. Ogryns, Scions, Vanquishers, Demolishers, LRBT's, Basilisks, etc all have major functionality issues and the internal balance of the book is absolutely horrific. That's not even getting into the giant pile of gak that is heavy & special weapons teams.
The book is only "ok" in the sense that, against pre-2015 armies, you could use like 40% of the book to make "OK' armies, which was enough to at least play for most players. Aside from that, it's got a lot of issues, and GW's design philosophy trend doesn't seem to be going out of its way to address the 2015 books power level issues any time soon
Cheap Rough Riders would not make someone want to take them. They don't really have much of a use. Buff their melee power by a bit, and I'd consider using them as counter assault.
Selym wrote: Cheap Rough Riders would not make someone want to take them. They don't really have much of a use. Buff their melee power by a bit, and I'd consider using them as counter assault.
Speak for yourself. I still field one Squad of them and am looking into getting at least one more.
Selym wrote: Cheap Rough Riders would not make someone want to take them. They don't really have much of a use. Buff their melee power by a bit, and I'd consider using them as counter assault.
Speak for yourself. I still field one Squad of them and am looking into getting at least one more.
Selym wrote: Cheap Rough Riders would not make someone want to take them. They don't really have much of a use. Buff their melee power by a bit, and I'd consider using them as counter assault.
Speak for yourself. I still field one Squad of them and am looking into getting at least one more.
Vaktathi wrote: There's a whole lot wrong with a grip of units beyond just Ratlings and RR's. Ogryns, Scions, Vanquishers, Demolishers, LRBT's, Basilisks, etc all have major functionality issues and the internal balance of the book is absolutely horrific. That's not even getting into the giant pile of gak that is heavy & special weapons teams.
The book is only "ok" in the sense that, against pre-2015 armies, you could use like 40% of the book to make "OK' armies, which was enough to at least play for most players. Aside from that, it's got a lot of issues, and GW's design philosophy trend doesn't seem to be going out of its way to address the 2015 books power level issues any time soon
Ogryns are entirely fine, there's just too much things that delete them too easily. As said, tone down what's broken, don't buff what's alright.
Ogryns will make a good melee bully unit once Wraithknight and that whole category is fixed - it's basically a unit of Warbosses, after all. I am not sure of their pts cost in the latest codex, maybe it needs a tweak, but I doubt it. The unit is absolutely brutal against most infantry in melee, even other melee specialists.
I hadn't thought of Scions as they are their own codex now, but they need another job. Mediocre anti-MEQ is not enough. Give them high RoF S3 Ap4 at good range or something, and perhaps a pts drop.
Vanquishers get a co-axial heavy stubber. Done. Negligible firepower increase, main gun accuracy boosted to 75% from 50%, making it more reliable.
Demolishers are 100% fine. They are Vindicators +1 with more weapons and better AV. They do a 24" 'zone of death' job well.
Basilisks suffer from tables that are too small. The unit is best suited for Apocalypse, for shooting those fethers over on the other side of the hall. I have no idea of why it is in small 40k games to begin with, long-range artillery deployed in 'knife fight' range.
Heavy & special weapons teams need more cheap meatshields. Let them take conscripts as in-squad escorts to absorb weapons fire. Done. Makes perfect sense that the Guard would protect valuable heavy weapons with cheap bodies.
Selym wrote: I meant on the TT, but that'll do too
I have them with a pair of Flamers and I give the Sarge a Power Lance. I usually use them to finish off units that the 'Big Guns' have beat up or Transports. The flamers do...ok.
I was playing them with Grenade Launchers as an Outrider Force, but the Las-Pistols did not Synergies well with Grenade Launchers or with the Plasma Guns {And I love Plasma}.
Melta worked...ok, but after the initial Charge I now had a bunch of guy supporting 2 Melta-Guns with a giant Bull-Eye on them.
With the Flamers I need to get close, but I want to do that with the Las-Pistols anyways and they make a "Serviceable" Assault unit, IF I can ever make a Moral Check!
My big problem has been aster the Initial Assault, can't seem to make Moral Checks and that is even with someone like Creed in Command Range. I can not count the time this has happened.
Turn One: I go Running across the table along a FLank and using cover.
Turn Two: I get my Assault of killing all, but the Sargent of the Devastator Squad, but leave only the Sargent Alive. The following Assault Phase the Sargent kills one Model, I fail my Moral Check and Run Away, but are not caught in a Sweeping Advance.
Turn Three: Continued to run away as I roll an 11 on my "Get Back Into The Fight" Order to my Unit of 8 Rough Riders.
Turn Four: I Roll all 6s on there Run-Away Move as they finish running off the board.
Scions are not anti-MEQ, the Volleygun is anti-MEQ. If SM Tacs want to take on equal points of a Volleygun squad at 24", they are going to lose even if they fire first.
What I'd like to see is simply more enablers to shore up their weak points.
- LD8 across the board. This would also mean 12pts for the Sgt rather than 22pts. Scions are not overcosted but the Sarge tax is painful; you're paying 10pts to remove a rifle from the squad.
- Optional Vet Sgt for 10pts who confers passive bonuses, replacing doctrines.
- Clarion Vox - Same rule, 24" range and acts as a free Vox.
- Monoscopes - Acts as an Auspex for the Squad only (-1 to enemy cover instead of shooting) and once per game, reroll all misses during overwatch.
- HS Lasgun, HS Laspistol and CCW. Even the Sarge.
- I'd like to see their DT get a searchlight, smoke and cam net.
Any other buffs they need I'd like to see coming from the pseudo-doctrines, stormtrooper orders or signature equipment (like improved grenades, flamers, and maybe some special wargear and/or relics).
Vaktathi wrote: There's a whole lot wrong with a grip of units beyond just Ratlings and RR's. Ogryns, Scions, Vanquishers, Demolishers, LRBT's, Basilisks, etc all have major functionality issues and the internal balance of the book is absolutely horrific. That's not even getting into the giant pile of gak that is heavy & special weapons teams.
The book is only "ok" in the sense that, against pre-2015 armies, you could use like 40% of the book to make "OK' armies, which was enough to at least play for most players. Aside from that, it's got a lot of issues, and GW's design philosophy trend doesn't seem to be going out of its way to address the 2015 books power level issues any time soon
Ogryns are entirely fine, there's just too much things that delete them too easily. As said, tone down what's broken, don't buff what's alright. Ogryns will make a good melee bully unit once Wraithknight and that whole category is fixed - it's basically a unit of Warbosses, after all. I am not sure of their pts cost in the latest codex, maybe it needs a tweak, but I doubt it. The unit is absolutely brutal against most infantry in melee, even other melee specialists.
Who uses Ogryns? They're extremely vulnerable to Ld issues, and for what they cost, they're really bad next to equivalent units from other books. There's a reason you don't see them in armies.
I can't recall the last time I saw a unit of these on a table, anywhere.
Warbosses work because they have a huge number of S10 AP2 attacks and are hiding with tons of meatsheilds, and are sporting LD9. Ogryns have none of these things.
Ogryns also have no effective delivery method. They have no assault transport, they're not particularly fast, and they're not really very durable either. T5 W3 is cool and all, but with a 5+sv and Ld6/7, they're not hard to either burn down or break, especially when they either have to ride in a Chimera (and wait a turn after disembarking to assault anything) or footslog it across the board.
They're 40pts a piece with a 5+sv and Ld6/7. They cost as much as a Space Wolf TWC, with significantly lower Ld, lower Init, 5+ instead of 3+ armor, fewer attacks, no Rending, *way* slower speed, no Counterattack/ATSKNF/Acute Senses, and basically no upgrade options. The only upside is they get an extra wound. Next to Necron Wraiths for the same price, they're even worse off.
Vanquishers get a co-axial heavy stubber. Done. Negligible firepower increase, main gun accuracy boosted to 75% from 50%, making it more reliable.
That might have sufficed in 5th. With the changes to vehicles, and the move away from big heavy powerful weapons to HP's and simply stripping hull points, that doesn't work as well. Given the chance that all three stubber shots miss as well, you're getting an average hit rate of 0.71875 (and only applies to half the main gun's range), which while still better, still isn't quite as good as might otherwise be expected. Ultimately, even with that enhanced hit rate, it means that, on average, against an AV14 HP3 target in the open with no saves of any kind, it'll just barely HP that target out over a 6 turn game (if it's a Land Raider it probably won't manage to kill it), and only inflict an Explodes result every 14.3 turns. Against an AV11 3 HP target like a Rhino with a 5+ cover save, even with the stubber, it'll struggle to HP out that target over a 6 turn game and inflict an Explodes result only every 13.7 turns. For a triple digit, heavy support tank hunter, that's pretty bad. With the way the way vehicle kill works currently, it really needs AP1 on top of the stubber to be an effective tank hunter, particularly when so many platforms can just jink away hits or find other ways of getting cover saves against single-shot heavy hitting weapons. That would, in conjunction with the stubber, allow it to at least inflict an average of 1 Explodes result against an AV14 target over a *7* turn game, assuming the target is both in the open with no cover save and within half range of the main gun.
Demolishers are 100% fine. They are Vindicators +1 with more weapons and better AV. They do a 24" 'zone of death' job well.
Only in terms of armor are they a "+1", but they do that at +3 cost. A naked Demolisher is 50pts more than a Vindicator, a 42% price premium, and can't ever move more than 6": (whereas a Vindicattor can move 12" and flat out 6" if it needs to reposition to get into range), and can't ever make effective use of upgrade weapons due to the fact that Heavy does not do anything about the restrictions Ordnance imposes on shooting other weapons. Sure, the Demolisher gets better armor, but that's not worth 50pts, and especially not with the corresponding speed issues. The time when 170pts for an S10 AP2 24" pieplate was worth it are long gone. If they were 20pts cheaper and Ordnance didn't interfere with using other weapons, they'd be perfect, but unfortunately, neither of these things are true. The LRBT suffers from much the same problems, and the increasing levels of T5 and things with invul saves or "not saves" like RP, as well as the changes to vehicle kill, have made the once fearsome Battlecnnon much less scary than it was in say, 4th or 5th edition.
Basilisks suffer from tables that are too small. The unit is best suited for Apocalypse, for shooting those fethers over on the other side of the hall. I have no idea of why it is in small 40k games to begin with, long-range artillery deployed in 'knife fight' range.
That goes for many units, such as the Deathstrike But, either way, it's been a codex unit since 2E, and has remained unchanged since 3E, and largely ignored and not given table space for the same amount of time by most players
Heavy & special weapons teams need more cheap meatshields. Let them take conscripts as in-squad escorts to absorb weapons fire. Done. Makes perfect sense that the Guard would protect valuable heavy weapons with cheap bodies.
The problem is still that they're exceedingly easy to attack through Ld, extra bodies would just inflate their cost even more, and they're still putting out rather unimpressive firepower for what they cost. Likewise, with Special Weapons Squads, more than bodies, they need a delivery system, they don't even have the option to take a transport.
There's a whole lot wrong with a grip of units beyond just Ratlings and RR's. Ogryns, Scions, Vanquishers, Demolishers, LRBT's, Basilisks, etc all have major functionality issues and the internal balance of the book is absolutely horrific. That's not even getting into the giant pile of gak that is heavy & special weapons teams.
The book is only "ok" in the sense that, against pre-2015 armies, you could use like 40% of the book to make "OK' armies, which was enough to at least play for most players. Aside from that, it's got a lot of issues, and GW's design philosophy trend doesn't seem to be going out of its way to address the 2015 books power level issues any time soon
Ogryns are entirely fine, there's just too much things that delete them too easily. As said, tone down what's broken, don't buff what's alright.
Ogryns will make a good melee bully unit once Wraithknight and that whole category is fixed - it's basically a unit of Warbosses, after all. I am not sure of their pts cost in the latest codex, maybe it needs a tweak, but I doubt it. The unit is absolutely brutal against most infantry in melee, even other melee specialists.
I hadn't thought of Scions as they are their own codex now, but they need another job. Mediocre anti-MEQ is not enough. Give them high RoF S3 Ap4 at good range or something, and perhaps a pts drop.
Vanquishers get a co-axial heavy stubber. Done. Negligible firepower increase, main gun accuracy boosted to 75% from 50%, making it more reliable.
Demolishers are 100% fine. They are Vindicators +1 with more weapons and better AV. They do a 24" 'zone of death' job well.
Basilisks suffer from tables that are too small. The unit is best suited for Apocalypse, for shooting those fethers over on the other side of the hall. I have no idea of why it is in small 40k games to begin with, long-range artillery deployed in 'knife fight' range.
Heavy & special weapons teams need more cheap meatshields. Let them take conscripts as in-squad escorts to absorb weapons fire. Done. Makes perfect sense that the Guard would protect valuable heavy weapons with cheap bodies.
Demolishers are horribly overcosted, 140 or 150 pts is reasonable I think.
Basilisks need a massive points drop, in order to be even remotely useful, maybe somewhere in the 70-90 pts range? This isn't 5th ed anymore, single blasts just aren't what they used to be, therefore I feel Bassies need to be dirt cheap in order to be worth putiing them on the table.
I think HWS & SWSs should just be able to join blob infantry squads. This would give the blob much needed firepower whilst simultaneously protecting the fragile weapon teams.
In addition the cost of platoons as a whole really should drop, maybe 4pts per Guardsmen and 2 for conscripts? Considering how laughable lasguns are against the kind of things we see on the table nowadays.
I think people are crazy thinking AM just need some tweaks and points drops. The army is terrrriibbbllle. We're the glass without the cannon.
It's time for fundamental changes. Meta changing system breaking changes.
How about
- pf is +3s instead of 2x
- Russes get superheavy rules. Av 14/13/13.
- remove grav and gauss rules
Suddenly melta bombs and chainfists matter. You would finally be able to push forward a squadron of punisher tanks. Infantry hiding behind the tanks as opposed to out front stupid style. Opponents would need dedicated anti-tank as opposed to just any unit in his list.
GCox wrote: - Russes get superheavy rules. Av 14/13/13.
- remove grav and gauss rules
It's hardly fair to ask for your own exceptions to ignore core rules (using Superheavy) when at the same time you're taking away someone else's (sidestepping AV). I think you hit on a real point though. 40k is continually devising ways for units and armies to ignore fundamental basics of wargaming such as terrain effects, morale, movement, armour values, vehicle damage, and action sequences. As a clasically styled WW2 army, the IG thematically won't ignore these. In fact people play them because they're more grounded.
In terms of unit choices AM is dated, their codex reflects the old school FOC where armies were much more similar and everyone fielded some kind of equivalent unit in each of the major categories. That's why there's so little synergy across the codex and changing points won't fix this either. At this point I think it's time to rip apart the Codex and start over, with the focus on developing the theme and how the army should handle first, and fleshing out the units second.
GW is actually turning out really good books lately (Necron, Eldar, DA, SM). AM is unfortunately among last in line but I'm sure when they get a rework it's going to be much deeper than simply shuffling around points. Could be a while though.
str7+d6 can't do much to new russes with av 13 butts, and if those new russes buy the +1AV upgrade they are immune to melee. So you take only russes and russ Characters and drive through the enemy with non grav anti tank weapons having too few ways to stop you. Only the D eldar would be a hard match up, although you could always refuse to play eldar players on the base of them having an OP army.
str7+d6 can't do much to new russes with av 13 butts, and if those new russes buy the +1AV upgrade they are immune to melee. So you take only russes and russ Characters and drive through the enemy with non grav anti tank weapons having too few ways to stop you. Only the D eldar would be a hard match up, although you could always refuse to play eldar players on the base of them having an OP army.
Vaktathi wrote: Who uses Ogryns? They're extremely vulnerable to Ld issues, and for what they cost, they're really bad next to equivalent units from other books. There's a reason you don't see them in armies.
I can't recall the last time I saw a unit of these on a table, anywhere.
Warbosses work because they have a huge number of S10 AP2 attacks and are hiding with tons of meatsheilds, and are sporting LD9. Ogryns have none of these things.
Ogryns also have no effective delivery method. They have no assault transport, they're not particularly fast, and they're not really very durable either. T5 W3 is cool and all, but with a 5+sv and Ld6/7, they're not hard to either burn down or break, especially when they either have to ride in a Chimera (and wait a turn after disembarking to assault anything) or footslog it across the board.
They're 40pts a piece with a 5+sv and Ld6/7. They cost as much as a Space Wolf TWC, with significantly lower Ld, lower Init, 5+ instead of 3+ armor, fewer attacks, no Rending, *way* slower speed, no Counterattack/ATSKNF/Acute Senses, and basically no upgrade options. The only upside is they get an extra wound. Next to Necron Wraiths for the same price, they're even worse off.
I knew you'd make this argument, so I specifically said that once you toned down what is OP Ogryns will be entirely fine, and Wraiths + TWC are in that category. Believe it or not, most melee unit entries are not that strong, and against Berzerkers, Scorpions, Banshees, Assault Marines, Vanguard Veterans, most kinds of Ork, Hormagaunts, Tyranid Warriors, etc. etc. they are utterly brutal and do much better than Terminators would. Wraiths + TWC seem extraordinarily common, which they are because they are so strong, but in terms of actual unit entries they are much fewer. it's easier to get the 20% down to the 80% than it is to get the 80% up to the 20%.
That might have sufficed in 5th. With the changes to vehicles, and the move away from big heavy powerful weapons to HP's and simply stripping hull points, that doesn't work as well. Given the chance that all three stubber shots miss as well, you're getting an average hit rate of 0.71875 (and only applies to half the main gun's range), which while still better, still isn't quite as good as might otherwise be expected. Ultimately, even with that enhanced hit rate, it means that, on average, against an AV14 HP3 target in the open with no saves of any kind, it'll just barely HP that target out over a 6 turn game (if it's a Land Raider it probably won't manage to kill it), and only inflict an Explodes result every 14.3 turns. Against an AV11 3 HP target like a Rhino with a 5+ cover save, even with the stubber, it'll struggle to HP out that target over a 6 turn game and inflict an Explodes result only every 13.7 turns. For a triple digit, heavy support tank hunter, that's pretty bad. With the way the way vehicle kill works currently, it really needs AP1 on top of the stubber to be an effective tank hunter, particularly when so many platforms can just jink away hits or find other ways of getting cover saves against single-shot heavy hitting weapons. That would, in conjunction with the stubber, allow it to at least inflict an average of 1 Explodes result against an AV14 target over a *7* turn game, assuming the target is both in the open with no cover save and within half range of the main gun.
Wait, lol, it isn't AP1? I had no idea. That's bs. It should deffo be.
Only in terms of armor are they a "+1", but they do that at +3 cost. A naked Demolisher is 50pts more than a Vindicator, a 42% price premium, and can't ever move more than 6": (whereas a Vindicattor can move 12" and flat out 6" if it needs to reposition to get into range), and can't ever make effective use of upgrade weapons due to the fact that Heavy does not do anything about the restrictions Ordnance imposes on shooting other weapons. Sure, the Demolisher gets better armor, but that's not worth 50pts, and especially not with the corresponding speed issues. The time when 170pts for an S10 AP2 24" pieplate was worth it are long gone. If they were 20pts cheaper and Ordnance didn't interfere with using other weapons, they'd be perfect, but unfortunately, neither of these things are true. The LRBT suffers from much the same problems, and the increasing levels of T5 and things with invul saves or "not saves" like RP, as well as the changes to vehicle kill, have made the once fearsome Battlecnnon much less scary than it was in say, 4th or 5th edition.
I run foot CSM, and believe me, when your battle cannon can wipe 150 points from the board with each shot I still consider it scary.
A Vindicator is 13/11/10, and if you compare that to the Demolisher, you do see that there's a fair difference in armour value. Maybe it needs to be a little cheaper, but nothing drastic.
The problem is still that they're exceedingly easy to attack through Ld, extra bodies would just inflate their cost even more, and they're still putting out rather unimpressive firepower for what they cost. Likewise, with Special Weapons Squads, more than bodies, they need a delivery system, they don't even have the option to take a transport.
I don't see a solution if you think heavy weapons teams lack LD, other than perhaps making them cheaper. Boosting their LD would be illogical.
Special weapon squads getting transports seems fair.
Side note: Ordnance fix is another change that needs to happen. Not only IG suffers from that, though. Defilers, anyone?
The thing is the HWT's are utterly usless. Even with Mortars you are talking 55 points worth of BS3 T3 models sitting at the back and doing nothing effective for what they cost.
Demolishers likewise are waaaaayyyyyy to pricey. For +50 points you are gaining a little extra armour and losing your speed and BS. Its the same with Leman Russ. Sure they look scary but they dont ignore cover. ans when you fire all the other weapons are snap shooting on the LRBT, the Demolisher and the Eradicator.They just struggle to compete with other tanks and armies and feel lackluster.
The Vanquisher is actually a worse tank hunter than the Exterminator. an Exterminator on the flank will massacre most vehicles whilst the Vanquisher will struggle to kill an Ork Trukk in less than 4 to 5 turns.
master of ordinance wrote: The thing is the HWT's are utterly usless. Even with Mortars you are talking 55 points worth of BS3 T3 models sitting at the back and doing nothing effective for what they cost.
Pretty much. They just have too many issues:
- No mobility
- Terrible survivability (far less than 6 guardsmen, but cost 50% more even before weapons)
- Ld7 means they can easily run away, and they have to text if they lose a single base
- Ld7 also means they're terrible at passing orders, which they desperately need
- Can't take sergeants or vox casters to help with the above
- Autocannons, missile launchers and Lascannons are far from great in the current edition, and these are only firing at BS3
- More minor point, but they're so low on the ground that it's really easily for screening-squads to completely block their LoS
Actually, on this subject, what do people think of the Orders mechanic in terms of the limit of 2 orders per officer? I ask because, to me, this seems like a further flaw when it comes to HWTs. In general, they're really reliant on orders to do anything, but you're really limited in how many you can give useful orders (Bring it Down, Fire on my Target) to.
I guess it just seems counter-intuitive to have units that are basically designed to be taken en masse, but then have really minuscule limits on how many you can issue orders to.
str7+d6 can't do much to new russes with av 13 butts, and if those new russes buy the +1AV upgrade they are immune to melee. So you take only russes and russ Characters and drive through the enemy with non grav anti tank weapons having too few ways to stop you. Only the D eldar would be a hard match up, although you could always refuse to play eldar players on the base of them having an OP army.
Melta. Bomb.
Meltagun
Multimelta
Lascannon
Powerfist
Chainfist
etcetera
Lascannons won't get through cover same with multi meltas and melta guns. melta bombs won't get in to range, because you will just focus fire units that have them. powerfists do nothing vs av13+ when they max they can roll is 13. etc etc.
Add to it orders letting your russes ignore cover or shot multiple times and you could blow up whole armies with a tank company. Just like they did in 3ed.
Lascannons won't get through cover same with multi meltas and melta guns.
With that logic, Dark Eldar have no credible anti-vehicle whatsoever.
Wait... what am I saying? Point withdrawn.
Anyway, I do think rear armour 13 is a bit too much for Leman Russ tanks. +1 rear armour might be reasonable though (so it'd be AV11 for most of them, and AV12 for the 3 that are currently AV11). Or is AV12 on those 3 still too much?
Actually, on this subject, what do people think of the Orders mechanic in terms of the limit of 2 orders per officer? I ask because, to me, this seems like a further flaw when it comes to HWTs. In general, they're really reliant on orders to do anything, but you're really limited in how many you can give useful orders (Bring it Down, Fire on my Target) to.
F*ck the Order mechanic, that's my opinion. The Guard needs something like the Skitarii Imperatives: a bunch of Order-equivalent Doctrines the AM player can pick at the start of its Turn to give a specific bonus to his whole army without rolling anything and retain that bonus until he chooses another. Now that would help a lot!
AtoMaki wrote: The Guard needs something like the Skitarii Imperatives: a bunch of Order-equivalent Doctrines the AM player can pick at the start of its Turn to give a specific bonus to his whole army without rolling anything and retain that bonus until he chooses another. Now that would help a lot!
Pretty much the first time there's a Decurion-style formation, you will get this,
It'll probably also involve a points discount too since GW realises it lets players run bigger armies at the same points level (this letting you buy more models). Free weapons for HWT or some crap like that.
AtoMaki wrote: The Guard needs something like the Skitarii Imperatives: a bunch of Order-equivalent Doctrines the AM player can pick at the start of its Turn to give a specific bonus to his whole army without rolling anything and retain that bonus until he chooses another. Now that would help a lot!
Pretty much the first time there's a Decurion-style formation, you will get this,
It'll probably involve a points discount too since GW realises it lets players run bigger armies at the same points level (this letting you buy more models). Free weapons for HWT or some crap like that.
Nah, the Army Detachment would have unit recycling, FW-style (so the recycled units get a considerable buff when they return). Vehicles return too, but only if you have spare models because you cannot remove the wrecks.
How about a Planetary Defense Force, or Combined Imperial Armies Force? Something similar to the detachment from IA 13, but for imperials
Just spit-balling
3-6 HQ 3-8 troop
0-3 Elite
0-3 FA 2-5 Heavy
0-3 Lords of War
1-4 Fortifications
Astartes Advisors- Independent Characters with the ATSKNFUSR replace it with The Emperors Finest, and replace Chapter Tactics (Chapter) with Tactical Advisory (chapter)
Command Benefits- if this is your primary detachment you gain the following benefits:
Hold Your Ground- All AM units gain Objective Secured, and AM units within 12" of an Astartes model may re-role failed Leadership (yes for orders too) tests.
Tyrant- If an Astartes IC is chosen as your Warlord all Astartes units benefit from The Tyrants Due USR
Chain of Command- If a model with the senior officer special rule is chosen as your warlord and is killed you may immediately select any model with the Voice of Command USR. That model generate a new warlord trait and is treated as your warlord for the remainder of the game.
Inquisitorial Fire Discipline- if an Inquisitor is chosen as the force's warlord, all AM units in the detachment gain the following USR So long as the warlord is on the table and alive: (Maleus): Prefered Enemy Deamons (all deamons), (Hereticus)Prefered Enemy Psykers, CSM, (Xenos) Prefered Enemy; Orks, Tau, Eldar, DE, Necrons.
The Emperors Finest- A unit with at least one model with this special rule automatically passes all fear checks. Units falling back automatically pass any attempts to regroup. Additionally if the unit falls back from melee combat, and is swept, all models with The Emperors Finest remain locked in combat while all remaining models fall back as normal.
I knew you'd make this argument, so I specifically said that once you toned down what is OP Ogryns will be entirely fine, and Wraiths + TWC are in that category.
They're the closest equivalents in terms of stats, size, and role, aside from Tyranid Warriors, who aren't looked favorably upon and are still drastically superior (being Troops, 10ppm cheaper, with better WS, Init, Ld/Fearless+Synapse, tons of options including power weapon equivalents, and Drop Pod delivery methods).
Ultimately however, expecting these other units to get toned down is not something anyone can count on or expect. GW certainly doesn't look to be reversing that trend, and TWC's & Wraiths are amongst the closest equivalent units.
Believe it or not, most melee unit entries are not that strong, and against Berzerkers, Scorpions, Banshees, Assault Marines, Vanguard Veterans, most kinds of Ork, Hormagaunts, Tyranid Warriors, etc. etc. they are utterly brutal and do much better than Terminators would.
Many of these units don't fill the same role, and comparisons will be somewhat wonky. Even then, almost all of these other units do much better than Ogryns do.
Lets look at Assault Marines by comparison, a unit many find fairly lackluster.. For basically the same price as a barebones Ogryn squad (140pts vs 130), you can get 10 Assault Marines. The Assault Marines are going to beat the Ogryn in comba (assuming neither side charges) by a 2-1 wound ratio, while the Ogryns only have 9 wounds to the AM's 10, meaning they're going to lose a battle of attrition, and that's assuming the Ogryns don't break on Ld7. The Assault Marines are much faster and thus more likely to get off a charge and engage when and where they want to, and had a much wider array, and far more useful variety, of upgrade options. If we look at their effectiveness against another target that both are seemingly optimized to engaged, say an Ork Mob, the Assault Marines still come out on top. If we use those same squads as above, the three charging Ogryn inflict an average of 5.27 wounds on the Orks, while the Assault Marines inflict 8.33 wounds on average.
Even getting off a charge against roughly equivalent points of Orks, assuming no characters or powerklaws (very much to the advantage of the Ogryns), if the Orks don't break, the Ogryns should only win the first round of combat, and suffer more wounds than the Orks in a round 2, and eventually lose a battle of attrition, assuming they don't break, through breaking is likely on both units if they lose a round of combat.
We can do the same analysis with say, Striking Scorpions. assuming 8 SS's vs 3 Ogryn for 136 vs 130pts. Again, assuming no charges, the SS's inflict an average of 4.44 wounds on the Ogryns, the Ogryns inflict an average of 1 back (particularly as 1 Ogryn will already be dead), losing even harder than they did against the Assault Marines.
Going through the rest of the list, the result will not generally be much in the Ogryns favor in any of them except the Banshees (who shouldn't be fighting things like Ogryns anyway). Even with terminators, and even if we want to talk Tac termi's, the Ogryns do better against weeny infantry like Orks (which they're not really intended to fight anyway), but the Terminators are going to win an even-points fight against the Ogryns.
Wait, lol, it isn't AP1? I had no idea. That's bs. It should deffo be.
Yeah, it's only AP2
Only in terms of armor are they a "+1", but they do that at +3 cost. A naked Demolisher is 50pts more than a Vindicator, a 42% price premium, and can't ever move more than 6": (whereas a Vindicattor can move 12" and flat out 6" if it needs to reposition to get into range), and can't ever make effective use of upgrade weapons due to the fact that Heavy does not do anything about the restrictions Ordnance imposes on shooting other weapons. Sure, the Demolisher gets better armor, but that's not worth 50pts, and especially not with the corresponding speed issues. The time when 170pts for an S10 AP2 24" pieplate was worth it are long gone. If they were 20pts cheaper and Ordnance didn't interfere with using other weapons, they'd be perfect, but unfortunately, neither of these things are true. The LRBT suffers from much the same problems, and the increasing levels of T5 and things with invul saves or "not saves" like RP, as well as the changes to vehicle kill, have made the once fearsome Battlecnnon much less scary than it was in say, 4th or 5th edition.
I run foot CSM, and believe me, when your battle cannon can wipe 150 points from the board with each shot I still consider it scary.
If you're footslogging MEQ's in the open against Battlecannons, sure, but in general this is a far less common thing than in previous editions, and many things that once were "MEQ" equivalents that battlecannons would be highly effective against, have changed in ways that make them much more resilient (e.g. Striking Scorpions getting a ton of cover enhancing bonuses, Necron units and the new functionality of RP, Jink on Bike units, shield drones and shield generators becoming much more functional for Tau Suit units relative to 4E/5E, venomthrope broods providing cover to advancing lines of units, etc)
A Vindicator is 13/11/10, and if you compare that to the Demolisher, you do see that there's a fair difference in armour value. Maybe it needs to be a little cheaper, but nothing drastic.
It is a fair difference in armor value, but the ability of the Vindicator to be able to redeploy if it needs to (which the Demolisher cannot do), with additional reduced scatter, and the inability of a Demolisher to make use of its other weapons (since they must all snapfire if the main gun shoots) are all things that drag down its viability. LR's in general need that latter issue addressed, and the Demolisher really should be more ~150pts than ~170.
The problem is still that they're exceedingly easy to attack through Ld, extra bodies would just inflate their cost even more, and they're still putting out rather unimpressive firepower for what they cost. Likewise, with Special Weapons Squads, more than bodies, they need a delivery system, they don't even have the option to take a transport.
I don't see a solution if you think heavy weapons teams lack LD, other than perhaps making them cheaper. Boosting their LD would be illogical.
They don't need to be Ld10/Fearless (though Ld8 like other IG units would help), but for their squad size (and vulnerability to Ld tests), reliance on orders, and cost, which is generally 75-105pts after guns (for BS3 T3 5+sv Ld7 6 wound units that are effectively 3 wound units against S6+ shooting), they just aren't particularly functional.
There are some alternatives that I suggested earlier in the thread. If we look at a basic Infantry Squad, and take inferences from other books where sergeants giving +1A and +1Ld are generally worth 10pts, we can see that basic guardsmen are considered about 4pts each. If we apply the same costing to HWS's (which lack sergeants), this makes them worth 24pts before upgrades. Cut 20-25pts off each unit and you have a more realistic price for what they're really worth. Three BS3 T3 LD7 models with autocannons is probably worth ~50pts, not 75. The ability to "blob" them would also be really helpful. Alternatively, if we don't just want to make them absurdly cheap for fears of an absurdly powerful alpha strike, they could be treated differently. We've got two gunners and a large weapon, and the models typically have a gun shield and some sort of "entrenchment" like sand bags that come with the model, why not make them a T5 gun team? Like T7 Artillery, but not quite as impressive.
Side note: Ordnance fix is another change that needs to happen. Not only IG suffers from that, though. Defilers, anyone?
Indeed, and especially with the absurd 50pt price hike they got with the 2012 book, those things are in serious need of some help.
Random crazy idea about the Basilisk: instead of dropping its price or anything, what about making its shot use the Apocalyptic Mega-Blast template (the 12" three-in-one blast)? The inner blast is S9 AP3 as normal, the middle blast is S6 AP5, and the outer blast is S3 AP-. The ultimate artillery piece or 'Nice Green Tide You Have There'.
AtoMaki wrote: Random crazy idea about the Basilisk: instead of dropping its price or anything, what about making its shot use the Apocalyptic Mega-Blast template (the 12" three-in-one blast)? The inner blast is S9 AP3 as normal, the middle blast is S6 AP5, and the outer blast is S3 AP-. The ultimate artillery piece or 'Nice Green Tide You Have There'.
Two very simple fixes, taken from the original Cityfight book, that would remedy the Leman Russ ordnance issues, these should apply to all armies:
- Ordnance, these weapons hit with such massive force that they shatter trees and trenches alike, all cover saves against ordnance weapons -1 to their dice roll.
- Earthshaker ordnance, the bone-rattling impact of artillery and demolisher shells rips through buildings and bone like paper. Cover saves suffer an additional -1 to their dice rolls when rolling for wounds taken from ordnance weapons that are strength 9 or 10. This is cumulative with the -1 from the ordnance special rule.
Now you can actually use the demolisher and basilisk for their intended purposes, laying siege to entrenched infantry and vehicles.
Ultimately however, expecting these other units to get toned down is not something anyone can count on or expect.
As opposed to Ogryn buffs?
With the track GW is on, it's more likely than the other units getting toned down, particularly as IG hasn't gone through the current codex-power-inflation scheme yet, and it's just one book as opposed to many.
Ultimately, even if you removed TWC's and Wraiths, Ogryns are still bad, even next to many other "bad" or merely "mediocre" units
Guard isn't supposed to smash face in CC. Don't expect much.
Personally I don't feel Ogryns or Ratlings really fit the core theme anyway; they'd be better off in an Abhumans supplement where somebody could invest the time and effort to actually make them more interesting and developed units.
Same with Tempestus, make the codex reflect modern SF (high speed low drag!) with precision weapons, intelligence-driven operations and a light logistical footprint. The Taurox Prime MRAP is fine, just add wheels for god's sakes. A quad ATV and a pick-up would be great too.
Then, go back to basics and refocus Guard properly on WW2-style combined arms warfare. Why isn't there a cheap unarmed truck you can squadron that lets you move an entire infantry platoon around for less than 50pts? Why isn't there a sensible way to protect your backfield aside from bubble wrap? Why isn't there any coordination between forward forces and artillery?
Personally I think there's plenty of room for thinking outside the box. Example:
- Every unit should have a Vox upgrade available, including tanks and artillery
- Command units should be able to offer mutual support across the different Arms (for example, Danger Close artillery becomes twin-linked if the friendly unit has a Vox)
- Units become stronger when working in synergy and as intended (ie. non-scattering blasts gain Shred)
There are a few classic principles of war like mobility, flexibility, firepower, shock action, communications, logistics, etc. I think this is where a redesign should start -- not turning every unit into Cantopek Wraiths 2.0. We can do better!
AtoMaki wrote: Random crazy idea about the Basilisk: instead of dropping its price or anything, what about making its shot use the Apocalyptic Mega-Blast template (the 12" three-in-one blast)? The inner blast is S9 AP3 as normal, the middle blast is S6 AP5, and the outer blast is S3 AP-. The ultimate artillery piece or 'Nice Green Tide You Have There'.
Two very simple fixes, taken from the original Cityfight book, that would remedy the Leman Russ ordnance issues, these should apply to all armies:
- Ordnance, these weapons hit with such massive force that they shatter trees and trenches alike, all cover saves against ordnance weapons -1 to their dice roll.
- Earthshaker ordnance, the bone-rattling impact of artillery and demolisher shells rips through buildings and bone like paper. Cover saves suffer an additional -1 to their dice rolls when rolling for wounds taken from ordnance weapons that are strength 9 or 10. This is cumulative with the -1 from the ordnance special rule.
Now you can actually use the demolisher and basilisk for their intended purposes, laying siege to entrenched infantry and vehicles.
Now you see the problem with this is that other armies also utilise the Demolisher Cannon and the Battlecannon meaning that GW would also have to go and re-write a lot of other things.... Unless they made it an Imperial Guard specific thing like a form of specialist shells or representing the expertise of the gunners.
Combining this with the LB rule and the Leman Russ would finally enter the path to competitiveness again.
Yoyoyo wrote: Guard isn't supposed to smash face in CC. Don't expect much.
Personally I don't feel Ogryns or Ratlings really fit the core theme anyway; they'd be better off in an Abhumans supplement where somebody could invest the time and effort to actually make them more interesting and developed units.
I want an Abhumans dex with Spiderman.
That'd be funny as gak, until we realize the model is in fact a distorted human body with extra legs coming out the back...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Kinda assassinated my own idea there...
AtoMaki wrote: Random crazy idea about the Basilisk: instead of dropping its price or anything, what about making its shot use the Apocalyptic Mega-Blast template (the 12" three-in-one blast)? The inner blast is S9 AP3 as normal, the middle blast is S6 AP5, and the outer blast is S3 AP-. The ultimate artillery piece or 'Nice Green Tide You Have There'.
Two very simple fixes, taken from the original Cityfight book, that would remedy the Leman Russ ordnance issues, these should apply to all armies:
- Ordnance, these weapons hit with such massive force that they shatter trees and trenches alike, all cover saves against ordnance weapons -1 to their dice roll.
- Earthshaker ordnance, the bone-rattling impact of artillery and demolisher shells rips through buildings and bone like paper. Cover saves suffer an additional -1 to their dice rolls when rolling for wounds taken from ordnance weapons that are strength 9 or 10. This is cumulative with the -1 from the ordnance special rule.
Now you can actually use the demolisher and basilisk for their intended purposes, laying siege to entrenched infantry and vehicles.
Personally i think ordnance just needs to get concussive but -1 cover sounds really cool.
Also i think a simple BRBFAQ of no jinks against barrage (since how the feth did you see that coming that you can react to it....) would add a bit more stratigery to a game that sorely lacks it.
Yoyoyo wrote: Guard isn't supposed to smash face in CC. Don't expect much
There's a difference between "this is not a CC army" and "the couple CC units they do have are non-functional". If Ogryns and Rough Riders are going to be so bad as to be incapable of serving a role, we might as well just remove them from the codex.
It's one thing if they were just mediocre. But these units are so bad they might as well just not exist for how much they are used.
Personally I don't feel Ogryns or Ratlings really fit the core theme anyway; they'd be better off in an Abhumans supplement where somebody could invest the time and effort to actually make them more interesting and developed units.
This is probably highly unlikely to ever happen, and these units have been part of the IG army as long as it has existed.
RE: Ordinance, I would outright prefer if Ordnance just gave a -1 to cover saves instead of re-rolling armor penetration. Ordnance weapons suck ass at destroying vehicles anyway due to hullpoints and the change to the vehicle damage table, so I'd change its focus to anti-infantry. -1 to cover saves is a fluffy and effective representation of how ordnance weapons would work in reality, without being as broken as flat-out ignores cover.
Ordnance weapons that are specifically designed to destroy armor should just have armorbane or the one that allows re-rolls to pen. Can't recall the name.
BlaxicanX wrote: RE: Ordinance, I would outright prefer if Ordnance just gave a -1 to cover saves instead of re-rolling armor penetration. Ordnance weapons suck ass at destroying vehicles anyway due to hullpoints and the change to the vehicle damage table, so I'd change its focus to anti-infantry. -1 to cover saves is a fluffy and effective representation of how ordnance weapons would work in reality, without being as broken as flat-out ignores cover.
Ordnance weapons that are specifically designed to destroy armor should just have armorbane or the one that allows re-rolls. Can't recall the name.
Aye, Ignores Cover would remove the purpose and role of the Eradicator.
Some form of extra damage against vehicles would be nice too, maybe a +1 on the damage chart or taking off 2 HP as opposed to one (and no I do not care how big and well armoured your Land Raider is, it has just been hit by a 150mm HE shell. What little is left of its facing armour will be gathered for use as a colander or possibly an ornamental example of a modern art fixture).
As to Ogryns I do feel that they need a massive buff. Whilst the Imperial Guard may not be a close combat based army on a whole there are some units within the book intended to function as close quarters combatants, namely the Ogryns and Bullgryns. However as has been put forth already these units utterly suck, costing a hell of a lot of points for just a single model (40 for Ogryns, 45 for Bullgryns) and failing miserably to do what they are intended too (Ogryns relying on amassed attacks to get through your opponents armour and Bullgryns being okay against light infantry but utterly worthless against anything else) meaning that as an actual viable choice they are pointless. Other armies have the odd unit that goes against their mainstream design (The Kroot for the Tau, the Centurion for the Space Marine, etc) and provides some form of specialist support to shore them up in an area that they otherwise fail in.These units rarely cost even half as much as the Ogryns/Bullgryns and yet prove to be just as effective. Why?
That said and more to the point we really need to look at the Imperial Guard and try to uncover the defining aspect. Tanks are most certainly a contender, along with Infantry. Sadly though we do neither well, suffering from a lack of effective units in both of these categories and owing to the "Space marines must be better" syndrome things look bleak for us. It is indeed highly unlikely that GW will risk their poster boys (and the whines of all the children whom play Space Smurfs) by making the Imperial Guard codex anything close to the level of the Space marine codex. All in all things look bleak.
BlaxicanX wrote: RE: Ordinance, I would outright prefer if Ordnance just gave a -1 to cover saves instead of re-rolling armor penetration. Ordnance weapons suck ass at destroying vehicles anyway due to hullpoints and the change to the vehicle damage table, so I'd change its focus to anti-infantry. -1 to cover saves is a fluffy and effective representation of how ordnance weapons would work in reality, without being as broken as flat-out ignores cover.
Ordnance weapons that are specifically designed to destroy armor should just have armorbane or the one that allows re-rolls to pen. Can't recall the name.
Armourbane gives a 2D6 to pen. Would be handy, but would make the Vanquisher useless if the rule is just handed out.
BlaxicanX wrote: RE: Ordinance, I would outright prefer if Ordnance just gave a -1 to cover saves instead of re-rolling armor penetration. Ordnance weapons suck ass at destroying vehicles anyway due to hullpoints and the change to the vehicle damage table, so I'd change its focus to anti-infantry. -1 to cover saves is a fluffy and effective representation of how ordnance weapons would work in reality, without being as broken as flat-out ignores cover.
Ordnance weapons that are specifically designed to destroy armor should just have armorbane or the one that allows re-rolls to pen. Can't recall the name.
Armourbane gives a 2D6 to pen. Would be handy, but would make the Vanquisher useless if the rule is just handed out.
Yep, please let us not invalidate the Vanquisher any more so than it already is.
Vanquisher Cannon: Range 72" // Str 8 // Ap 1 // Ordnance 1, Critical Hit!
Critical Hit! If the to-penetrate roll is 3 points or more above the armour value that was hit, this shot does 2 HP damage, and has an extra +1 on the damage table
Vanquisher Cannon:
Range 72" // Str 8 // Ap 1 // Ordnance 1, Critical Hit!
Critical Hit! If the to-penetrate roll is 3 points or more above the armour value that was hit, this shot does 2 HP damage, and has an extra +1 on the damage table
Pure genius, IMO.
The one modicifation I would make to this is to give the Vanquisher a +3 to the damage table anyway, increasing the chances of it oneshotting a tank it penetrates to 50%. Add in your Critical Hit! rule and with a good enough penetration the Vanquisher will be knocking out tanks on a 3+, something it needs to do.
master of ordinance wrote: That said and more to the point we really need to look at the Imperial Guard and try to uncover the defining aspect.
Well said. Any redesign should start first with this -- armies are usually designed around their common Special Rules to give some kind of unified gameplay, which is why throwing out unit buffs isn't the best place to start.
master of ordinance wrote: That said and more to the point we really need to look at the Imperial Guard and try to uncover the defining aspect.
Well said. Any redesign should start first with this -- armies are usually designed around their common Special Rules to give some kind of unified gameplay, which is why throwing out unit buffs isn't the best place to start.
master of ordinance wrote: That said and more to the point we really need to look at the Imperial Guard and try to uncover the defining aspect.
Well said. Any redesign should start first with this -- armies are usually designed around their common Special Rules to give some kind of unified gameplay, which is why throwing out unit buffs isn't the best place to start.
Guard revolves around:
- Mass High shot - high strength spam had made this only somewhat of an advantage. Outnumbering your opponent 3:1 is not as important as it used to be
- Supporting leadership Tactical, but a weakness of the IG. Other armies have direct leadership, and thus morale and effectiveness cannot be singled out and killed.
- Blast weapons Steadily becoming less and less effective. Useless against armour, and of limited use against infantry in the current format.
- Orders A Good concept, but inefficiently implemented. Should be expanded on.
- Inter-arms cooperation Much like real life, units are co-dependent. Other armies operate on individual merits, however, and find it all to easy to pick apart an IG battle structure.
So I'd start first with this. Can anyone else add to the list?
Yoyoyo wrote: Guard isn't supposed to smash face in CC. Don't expect much
There's a difference between "this is not a CC army" and "the couple CC units they do have are non-functional". If Ogryns and Rough Riders are going to be so bad as to be incapable of serving a role, we might as well just remove them from the codex.
It's one thing if they were just mediocre. But these units are so bad they might as well just not exist for how much they are used.
Personally I don't feel Ogryns or Ratlings really fit the core theme anyway; they'd be better off in an Abhumans supplement where somebody could invest the time and effort to actually make them more interesting and developed units.
This is probably highly unlikely to ever happen, and these units have been part of the IG army as long as it has existed.
Some people don't like abhumans, but for me they're part of what make the Imperial Guard feel like this larger intergalactic military. Many want Imperial Guard to be an analogue to a modern military, those players are most often those that dislike Abhumans. I understand the people who want to play them that way, but its ultimately a very unimaginative approach to the army and a bit lazy when it comes design. As long as they're approached as just an analogue they will never have as strong a presence as they deserve. When you look at the IG and Solar Auxillia that FW have done it shows there is plenty of room for something less bland.
Ogryns with their most recent update I think made the move in the right direction, though they are still lacking. They're a defensive close combat unit and they've certainly gotten better in that regard.
I think when it comes to Rough Riders, the Death Korp of Krieg's Deathriders should be the starting point. They're actually a bit survivable, reasonably priced point-wise, and actually stand a chance of killing a Marine tactical squad. Broken record, but just like all of human history Rough Riders should be comprised of elite soldiers on the same tier as Storm Troopers and Veterans, instead of being line guardsmen on horseback. Also would it be so bad to just make their hunting lances, power lances? -Combined with hit and run and that could actually accomplish something more significant.
The problem is that Rough Riders have never once been described as "elite soldiers". They can certainly include "elite soldiers", but when you have entire huge formations of Rough Riders from backwoods planets the chances of "elite soldiers" being the rule rather than the exception goes down.
That's the thing; how is IG going to leverage a defensive CC unit in the context of their overall strategy?
How does the Ogryn play with the wider forces?
I feel like they're a unit that dates back to when 40k was simply transplanting Fantasy units (ogres; halflings) into the race-equivalent 40k armies. I don't see intergalactic military, I just see dated game design from the 80's. As long as the IG is a hodgepodge of units without holistic design, they aren't going to make much sense on the tabletop either.
Ogryns may be a beloved unit, hence giving them the love they deserve, but it doesn't cancel out that issues with internal balance AKA coherent design.
aka_mythos wrote: Also would it be so bad to just make their hunting lances, power lances? -Combined with hit and run and that could actually accomplish something more significant.
I'm not sure about that. You're talking about replacing S5 I5 weapons with S4 I3 weapons. Considering their statine, I doubt many will survive to hit the enemy at all, let alone hit and run afterwards.
I think the initiative bonus really is important on such slow and fragile models.
With regard to Ogryns, might it be better to take them in a slightly different direction? Perhaps, rather than having them be crap melee units with crap guns, they should be mediocre melee units with good guns. So, they become more of a shooty unit, that won't just fold in melee.
As said gentlemen (and ladies), we need excellent definition of issues to direct solutions. We need to put the army before the units; otherwise we never get to coherent and unified design.
Following up Selym's excellent summary of the issues, these things are needed:
- Some form of greater protection from shooting; cover saves probably make the most sense as T3 and 5+ won't change
- Greater depth within the IG's leadership; commanders dying will happen, so there needs to be a mechanic to give IG more LD depth
- Some kind of retooling of blast weaponry; lots of good suggestions in the thread here already.
Next. We need to think about what the army should looks like on the table; what are the major units, how should it deploy, how should it move, how does it win, how does it lose. At that point we all agree (yay!), we finally get to brainstorm fixes.
Core units: The core units are obviously the real-life combat arms : Armour, Infantry, and Artillery (we're leaving out Combat Engineering and Air Defense/Aviation).
Deployment: Typically long-range fire support in the back, shock units staged in front, and follow-on forces protected and ready to advance.
How should it move: Combined arms tactics usually mean a mix of mechanized (armoured) and motorized (unarmoured) transports; tanks are highly mobile and usually spearhead the assault. Long-range fire support isn't supposed to be racing onto objectives!
How does it win: Fire support disrupts the enemy army, armour applies the speed and concentration of force needed to assault objectives, infantry provides close protection to armour, cleans up what's left and subsequently consolidates to hold ground.
How does it lose: Enemy armies disrupt one of the 3 major components of our army; we lose synergy and thus effectiveness. Keep in mind this shouldn't necessarily be easy!
Keep in mind this is only my opinion. I think this format is good though, so if you want to take a stab at defining how the IG should play yourself, here is Form 7216-B. Please follow the proper rules of staff writing when submitting to the Administratrum for review
Core units:
Deployment:
How should it move:
How does it win:
How does it lose:
Well I like that idea and I cant think much of way to improve on it just now, but I can tell you how the IG currently work:
Core units: Leman Russ Tanks and Veteran Sections with Company Command Squads and Tank Commanders
Deployment: The Leman Russ are deployed in a dug in position with the Infantry surrounding them in a term coined by the troops 'Bubble wrapping'
How should it move: Move? Whats that? The whole army sits in its defensive position as moving will A) Reduce the effective firepower of heavy weapon equipped sections and B) Take you closer to the enemy, something that you do not want
How does it win: With enough prayers to the dice gods you may be able to halt the enemies advance before they slaughter you. If they are not using Drop Pods, Deepstrike, heavy armour, assault vehicles, cover, etc
How does it lose: Usually when you opponents troops pass wind and massacre a third of your infantry, then shoot the rest and finally charge your tanks and kill them.
AtoMaki wrote: Random crazy idea about the Basilisk: instead of dropping its price or anything, what about making its shot use the Apocalyptic Mega-Blast template (the 12" three-in-one blast)? The inner blast is S9 AP3 as normal, the middle blast is S6 AP5, and the outer blast is S3 AP-. The ultimate artillery piece or 'Nice Green Tide You Have There'.
Two very simple fixes, taken from the original Cityfight book, that would remedy the Leman Russ ordnance issues, these should apply to all armies:
- Ordnance, these weapons hit with such massive force that they shatter trees and trenches alike, all cover saves against ordnance weapons -1 to their dice roll.
- Earthshaker ordnance, the bone-rattling impact of artillery and demolisher shells rips through buildings and bone like paper. Cover saves suffer an additional -1 to their dice rolls when rolling for wounds taken from ordnance weapons that are strength 9 or 10. This is cumulative with the -1 from the ordnance special rule.
Now you can actually use the demolisher and basilisk for their intended purposes, laying siege to entrenched infantry and vehicles.
Now you see the problem with this is that other armies also utilise the Demolisher Cannon and the Battlecannon meaning that GW would also have to go and re-write a lot of other things.... Unless they made it an Imperial Guard specific thing like a form of specialist shells or representing the expertise of the gunners.
Combining this with the LB rule and the Leman Russ would finally enter the path to competitiveness again.
I don't see that as a particularly big problem. Ordnance weapons as a whole are massively underutilized, and large blast weapons are not often used. From a gameplay perspective, and real-world perspective, the role of blast weapons is to clear enemies out of cover. But currently it is much more effective to shoot machine guns at targets in cover, that's the opposite of the real world where machine guns decimate targets in the open and artillery is used to destroy cover. IG have the most ordnance out of every army, but there's nothing wrong with a slight buff to vindicators and defiler battle cannons, especially since it would open up new tactical options where players are faced with a legitimate choice between rapid fire and large blast.
2d6 and pick the highest for armor pen is not enough to offset that it forces vehicles to snap shoot everything else. Multi-shot weapons stack much more effectively with psychic powers and other special rules.
master of ordinance wrote: Well I like that idea and I cant think much of way to improve on it just now, but I can tell you how the IG currently work...
I don't think the Comissariat is going to appreciate your frank approval of the ground situation, Major
With regard to Ogryns, might it be better to take them in a slightly different direction? Perhaps, rather than having them be crap melee units with crap guns, they should be mediocre melee units with good guns. So, they become more of a shooty unit, that won't just fold in melee.
Honestly, they need to be able to Overwatch with Blast weapons and the Grenadier Gauntlets and Ripper Guns should be Blast with a decent statline.
Grenadier Gauntlets should be S4 AP5 Assault 3
Ripper Guns should be S5 AP4 Assault 3
I, personally, have had some success with Bullgryn but if we could get a "Supporting Fire" styled rule for Guard and things of that nature they would move from "Meh, why would I?" to "Eh, why not?"
Ultimately however, expecting these other units to get toned down is not something anyone can count on or expect.
As opposed to Ogryn buffs?
I support a significant Ogryn cost reduction. Ogryns are grossly overpriced at 40+ pts per model. Get them down to 20, even 25 pts per model, and they make a lot more sense. Drop them to W2, if necessary, but pricing that high is crazy.
Yoyoyo wrote: Guard isn't supposed to smash face in CC. Don't expect much
There's a difference between "this is not a CC army" and "the couple CC units they do have are non-functional". If Ogryns and Rough Riders are going to be so bad as to be incapable of serving a role, we might as well just remove them from the codex.
Ogryns aren't really a CC unit, they're close-in firepower with a (bad) option to take CCWs.
What's missing is giving Conscripts the option to trade their Lasgun for a CCW. They're the models that should fight in HtH.
I think the obvious fix to ogryns would be a cost reduction and a stronger focus on specific battlefield roles. I.e. instead of being a sorta close combat, sorta bubble wrap you double down on one.
Ogryns drop to 30 points per model, lose hammer of wrath, gain carapace armor, and are bulky not very bulky. Now you can squeeze 5 + an IC into a chimera. Give them ripper pistols and CCW, now they're a decent mobile close assault force with moderate survivability and 4 S5 attacks per model.
Bullgryns lose their grenadier gauntlets. They now have slab shields and power mauls at 40 points per model. Grenadier gauntlets are mostly useless and brute shields are mostly useless. Now bullgryns are a much more effective counter-assault, defensive force.
Scions is an easy fix. Special rule change, clarion vox net: scion units equipped with a vox may receive orders issued from any range as long as the ordering unit is also equipped with a vox or is embarked on a command vehicle. Now FRF with hellguns is a lot easier to execute, bring it down with BS4 plasma guns is a serious threat when you deep strike, etc.
Ratlings, allow them to be taken 0-1 per platoon, they're now troops (i.e. objective secured).
Wyrdvane psykers, new special rule, for the glory of the Emperor: trained not only in the ways of harnessing the warp, but also indoctrinated into the Imperial Creed, wyrdvanes will not hesitate to sacrifice themselves for the good of mankind. When this unit attempts to cast psychic powers, after you roll the dice, you may re-roll one warp charge die each time you attempt to manifest a power. Every time you opt to re-roll one of the warp dice, this unit suffers one wound.
Conceptually, the oddity for me is that IG have basically NO CC units, aside from the absolutely terrible Bullgryn and Rough Rider choices. Which is strange, as the CC armies (i.e. Quins, Orks, Nids) can still shoot. Everybody else has awesome guns or actual fighty units (e.g. Kroot, ASMs).
I wonder if solving the CC problem is as simple as: 1. having all IG Snap Shot at BS2, and 2. allowing all IG to Snap Shot non-Heavy weapons in CC instead of fighting.
So, instead of swinging a S3 AP- stick in CC, a Guardsman squeezes off a couple Lasgun rounds. Or Plasma shots.
That might go a long way toward making those expensive Guard special weapons worth paying SM points, while making them not roll over when assaulted.
Oh yeah, bump the Chimera to 12/11/10 - IG need Transport with a bit more protection.
They're supposed to help your boys hold, or take on the heavy lifting themselves (Lord Commissars are WS5) when the going gets too tough.
Ogryns and Rough Riders are auxiliaries. Giving line Guardmen specal snowflake rules, though, goes against the nature of what IG should be.
I think I covered that. But IG don't get to skip the CC phase. They have to do something.
A Lord Commissar isn't doing anything significant against hordes of CC models that delete IG units wholesale.
Guard shoot, and that's what my proposal does. Everybody gets special rules. Guard snap shooting at BS2 (and in CC) isn't unreasonable, given that they have no assault units.
The alternative is allowing all Guard units to shoot into CC. With full effect Flamers and Blasts.
The alternative is allowing all Guard units to shoot into CC. With full effect Flamers and Blasts.
It makes sense they should be allowed to. In the eyes of the IG, once their men are in melee with something dangerous they are dead anyway.
Obviously, there is a reason other factions don't do this. In the swirling melee, it's very easy to hit your own. So, letting them shoot into melee but having misses hit your own guys instead would be fair. Blasts and templates could roll a D6, and on a 4+ or 5+ the opponent gets to place the template or blast instead (the target must still be locked in the same combat).
Commissars might be happy to BBQ their own men but I really don't see the troops doing it.
Considering how cheap Guardsmen are, I think it's fine for them to get killed off relatively easily in CC. But IG players need to stop getting penalized for this, if it's how the army is meant to be played.
The first major issue is nobody sensible will slow down the enemy with a 50pt infantry squad, if you're also going to lose the enablers which make them effective. We need some kind of mechanic to bounce ICs out of a losing combat and stay in the fight. A LC should be able to fight through 3-4 different losing combats and come out alive (excepting challenges).
Next, reworking Combined Squads and Kill Points is important. The platoon structure exists to enable command and control. Why is there no flexibility to disengage if we blob up and a single squad gets stuck in combat? Why do we lose so many benefits from buffs like Orders, just by manuevering tactically as separate units? We are prepared to take infantry casualties -- why should losing a single squad out of a platoon penalize a guard player in KPs? These ae not good mechanics IMO.
Conscripts fit the idea of a blob. There's no squad leadership so they need move around en masse. Trained soldiers do NOT fight that way.
The idea of some kind of Broken Arrow rule is great. This one has potential. Maybe it even gives our losing squads a chance to avoid getting swept -- which is a great example of the inter-arms cooperation that should define the IG.
We need some way to avoid CC entirely if we are not going to get some decent CC units, after all as has been pointed out the CC themed and based armies can also shoot really well, in some cases out gunning the Imperial Guard. Something like a rule which allows us to overwatch then fall back D6" or 2D6". If the enemy can not reach the section in its new position then the charge fails.
This would force enemy units to have to get very close to assault, effectively halving how close they have to get to get an effective charge off and allowing our sections to deal with enemy CC troops effectively.
With regard to shooting into combat, this really needs to be a core mechanic. It was dubious enough even when you would likely be hitting your own models, but now we have gargantuan creatures in the game. I think this sums it up best:
Had a thought. In addition to improving orders, they should have this:
-Orders may be given to any unit within 6" and LoS of the officer.
-Vox casters are free
-If the officer's unit has a vox, he may order another unit with a vox within 12", regardless of LoS.
-That unit may pass the order to another unit with a vox within 12", regardless of LoS at no penalty. Repeat ad infinitum until the desired unit has the order.
Selym wrote: Had a thought. In addition to improving orders, they should have this:
-Orders may be given to any unit within 6" and LoS of the officer.
-Vox casters are free
-If the officer's unit has a vox, he may order another unit with a vox within 12", regardless of LoS.
-That unit may pass the order to another unit with a vox within 12", regardless of LoS at no penalty. Repeat ad infinitum until the desired unit has the order.
I don't think the issue with orders is that they're too unreliable or there are too few that we are able to issue in a given turn. The problem is that the units that would most benefit from orders are very uncompetitive and low leadership (special weapons teams, heavy weapons teams, ratlings) or unlikely to be within range of a command squad (scions). The fact that veterans and blobs are really the only viable infantry options limits the effectiveness of orders. If we could field reasonably priced HWS then orders would be much more potent, if SWS could take transports then we could deploy them forward and issue orders from command chimeras. If ratlings could take a vox then they'd be pretty darn good (4+ re-roll against MCs, ignores cover against infantry)
The vox relay thing is intended to improve the range of orders without making it broken. Allowing re-rolls for orders when you still have a Character in the unit should be a thing. That'd make them much more likely to happen.
Selym wrote: The vox relay thing is intended to improve the range of orders without making it broken. Allowing re-rolls for orders when you still have a Character in the unit should be a thing. That'd make them much more likely to happen.
I like the whole relay thing but in all honesty right now Orders are so damn weak (especially as other armies get the exact same effect just for having certain characters/units or enough Markerlights (Tau)) that Vox units making them unlimited range would be of no real consequence to the balance of things.
I really like the idea of retreating and then shooting. I would make the unit pass the initiative or leadership test. If failed, they would overwatch as normal. If passed, they retreat for 3+D6 and then shoot at normal BS, or default BS-1.
Selym wrote: Had a thought. In addition to improving orders, they should have this:
-Orders may be given to any unit within 6" and LoS of the officer.
-Vox casters are free
-If the officer's unit has a vox, he may order another unit with a vox within 12", regardless of LoS.
-That unit may pass the order to another unit with a vox within 12", regardless of LoS at no penalty. Repeat ad infinitum until the desired unit has the order.
Here's a better thought.
No.
Orders don't need a range limitation, and Voxes need to be worthwhile. Even at "free" your idea is exceedingly lackluster.
It's something tactical and that can be countered. It's not meant for the current run of orders, which are underpowered. Which is why I said "In addition to improving orders". It makes logical sense to use Voxes like that.
Maybe have orders auto-pass if a Vox is in both units.
Orders happen, automatically. The requirement of a Leadership test is moronic.
Orders can be issued to any unit on the table with a Vox-Caster.
A Platoon counts as a single unit, for the purposes of Orders.
Orders themselves don't "need to be countered" nor should they be able to be countered, if you don't want someone issuing Orders then you kill the models with Voice of Command. That's the "counter".
I don't think IG troops should be getting special movement or shooting rules, independent of bonuses which derive from their leadership or organization. Further thoughts:
- Full BS overwatch should come from Foreboding. There's already a way to get this!
- Platoons should not need to blob up for bonuses (as Kanluwen said)
- Platoons need some version of Supporting Fire to compensate if no longer blobbed up
- Platoons should only give KPs when completely destroyed
- Independent Characters need a way to bounce into fresh squads
- Artillery can fire on CC under certain conditions to try and cover the squad's escape.
So, scenario time!
A single SM Assault Squad intends to charge the centre of a dismounted IG platoon. Here's how it plays out:
- First, the IG platoon is dispersed. Each Infantry Squad needs to keep 12" coherency at all times;
- The Assault Squad fires their pistols and charge;
- All Squads in the platoon within 24" fire Overwatch to support the Infantry Squad under attack;
- The Assault Squad resolves their attacks against the Infantry Squad (and most likely, destroy it);
- As the entire platoon is not destroyed, a KP is NOT awarded at this time;
- The next turn, the Infantry Platoon reconsolidates to regain 12" coherency between squads;
- The platoon command issues FRF/SRF;
- The remaining squads fire upon the Assault Squad with the bonus from Orders.
This doesn't seem like a losing scenario to me. It also seems more thematic than just handing out special rules to Guardmen. Everything here is based on the Platoon structure. The power isn't with your individual Guardsmen, and Conscript Blobs don't get these bonuses. Seems fluffy right?
I didn't get into the Broken Arrow or ideas to salvage your IC's, but reworking platoons doesn't seem too abusive. Thoughts?
A single SM Assault Squad intends to charge the centre of a dismounted IG platoon. Here's how it plays out:
- First, the IG platoon is dispersed. Each Infantry Squad needs to keep 12" coherency at all times;
- The Assault Squad fires their pistols and charge;
- All Squads in the platoon within 24" fire Overwatch to support the Infantry Squad under attack;
- The Assault Squad resolves their attacks against the Infantry Squad (and most likely, destroy it);
- As the entire platoon is not destroyed, a KP is NOT awarded at this time;
- The next turn, the Infantry Platoon reconsolidates to regain 12" coherency between squads;
- The platoon command issues FRF/SRF;
- The remaining squads fire upon the Assault Squad with the bonus from Orders.
This doesn't seem like a losing scenario to me. It also seems more thematic than just handing out special rules to Guardsmen. Everything here is based on the Platoon structure. The power isn't with your individual Guardsmen, and Conscript Blobs don't get these bonuses. Seems fluffy right?
I didn't get into the Broken Arrow or ideas to salvage your IC's, but reworking platoons doesn't seem too abusive. Thoughts?
If what your saying is that all Infantry units act like a single big unit with a 12" spread, and the ability to select different targets per squad, then yes please
TheSilo wrote: Firing into CC should be a special rule for conscripts (who should be renamed "penal legion").
Conscripts != Penal Legions, they're two distinct things.
Penal Legions are a mixed bag of veterans and cowards who have broken some arbitrary rules and assigned penal duties.
Conscripts are (relatively) trained but inexperienced in combat. Conscripts should have the same statline as Guardsmen, but lower LD and break faster unless they're near units of Veterans/Guardsmen.
It shouldn't be a universal IG rule.
Sure it should be. If you're seeing your buddies getting massacred by Orks, you're not going to stand there and say "Hey guys, we can't shoot over there. We might hit our guys instead of those big scary monsters that are going to be rushing and trying to massacre us next! Well guys, we might as well have a smoke break right now and watch."--you're going to start pouring fire into that mess and hope like hell you don't hit friendlies.
But it doesn't matter if you do hit friendlies, because even if you did--you just granted them a swifter and more merciful death.
It should be a universal rule when targeting gargantuan creatures, perhaps with you rolling at -1 BS.
...That is arbitrary and ridiculous.
"We can only shoot into the combat when it's something that is at LEAST four to five times the height of our guys--oh, and when we do we take a penalty."
Selym wrote: If what your saying is that all Infantry units act like a single big unit with a 12" spread, and the ability to select different targets per squad, then yes please
Yep pretty much!
Now in order to replace the beloved blob, we move Conscripts out of the platoon and make them a third troop choice. THIS is your tarpit and rear security unit -- not a 130pt platoon!
With an IC you can reliably bounce out of CC, you're now only losing 3pt bodies and you get some control over when your units get swept. Next scenario:
- 20x Conscripts with an IC Commissar get charged by 3x Necron Wraiths.
- With Summary Execution they hold anywhere from 3-5 combat phases.
- Your Commissar bounces out of combat, following the assault phase on your turn.
- Your Conscripts get mulched by the Wraiths on the enemy turn, as planned.
- You down the now exposed Wraiths with shooting on your next turn.
This would actually make Commissars very worthwhile against the other HQ choices; they read the battle and go where they're needed, acting as a force multiplier for the rest of the army. They're such an iconic unit too, they really need to be doing something impressive on the battlefield.
I agree that Commissars are integral to the Guard, and I could see an option to attach one to any Platoon Command Squad, with a Senior Commissar automatically included in a CCS.
I am not sold on "free-roaming" Commissars, given the amount of structure in a "proper" IG force.
Nor am I big on massed Commissars at the Platoon Squad level, and even less so for a Veteran Squad.
Although I could see the option to add one to any unit of Ogryns. Or Psykers.
Commissars are senior attachments who oversee forces, they aren't line troops. They are going to go wherever they want.
Inside of the fluff, Summary Execution is the Guard's method of holding in CC. Thematically I think it works.
There might be a better rules buff to turn 50pts of Guardsmen or 60pts of Conscripts into an effective CC speed bump, but ICs are the Guard's enabler and there's no way you want to be losing 25pts every time a squad gets chewed up. It also makes Commissars more attractive against Priests; LCs might actually get some use out of their WS5.
Anyways, there might be better solutions but that's my first stab at helping CC at the troop level right now.
Aren't Commissars attached at the battalion or company level, rather than unit-by-unit? Just recalling reading Dead Men Walking, where a Commissar recalls getting to choose which regiment to be reassigned to after his previous job.
Massed Commissars makes no sense, having more than one or two in any given engagement does seem a bit odd.
I think Lord Commissars should give some sort of combat bonus to their squad. I believe someone suggested earlier that they should be the ones granting Zealot, not priests.
But, either way, it's been a codex unit since 2E, and has remained unchanged since 3E, and largely ignored and not given table space for the same amount of time by most players 
