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8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/05 20:19:50


Post by: Quickjager


It's a big deal because it is horrible internal balance that forces GK into a playstyle that some of the community does not like.

It's more amazing you don't get that. It's why people were mad about the previous codex.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/05 20:27:34


Post by: Elmir


Well, the positive thing is: the terminator efficiency can easily be rectified with the next chapter approved book.

The dreadnoughts are sorta bad though, and quite a big deal. With FW faq'ing the GK riffledread out of existence and GW saying that dreadnought should use the latest unit entries, dakka dreads have effectively been squatted for GK players.

At least the C:SM units on bikes weren't updated in their new codex, allowing them to use the old datasheets. RAW right now, the old riffleman dread just isn't allowed in a GK army right now.

Something they said they wanted to avoid with the start of 8th edition. They got exactly 3 codexes in and already screwed the pooch on that one.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/05 21:57:16


Post by: Sinji


I like the new codex. I think it will make for some really potent steam roller armies.

Cheer up lads it's not the end of the world.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/06 01:13:30


Post by: Bigfashizzel


I think the codex looks amazing. I don't know why you all seem disappointed.

Purge Soul and Vortex of Doom are absolutely insane.

Take two detachments and make one of them something else.

GKs OWN the psychic phase. If you want shooting phase shooty, take a different detachment!. You are not limited at all. Pull in some AM or SM and crap blast from a distance, stop trying to force it with GK.

With that said, I think we actually have a very strong shooting phase, but we are a midrange shooting army. Storm Bolters are real winners this edition. Psilencers are fantastic, and the new "Astral Aim" ability is out of control.

I get that it might be hard to think through what might be good, but what exact issues are you having in your games? I haven't found anything that is limiting my enthusiasm for GK. I understand that's personal experience and anecdotal, but please indicate what issues you're facing!!


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/06 01:35:45


Post by: Audustum


Bigfashizzel wrote:
I think the codex looks amazing. I don't know why you all seem disappointed.

Purge Soul and Vortex of Doom are absolutely insane.

Take two detachments and make one of them something else.

GKs OWN the psychic phase. If you want shooting phase shooty, take a different detachment!. You are not limited at all. Pull in some AM or SM and crap blast from a distance, stop trying to force it with GK.

With that said, I think we actually have a very strong shooting phase, but we are a midrange shooting army. Storm Bolters are real winners this edition. Psilencers are fantastic, and the new "Astral Aim" ability is out of control.

I get that it might be hard to think through what might be good, but what exact issues are you having in your games? I haven't found anything that is limiting my enthusiasm for GK. I understand that's personal experience and anecdotal, but please indicate what issues you're facing!!


I play in an extremely competitive group. So here's what happens:

I reserve 50% of my GK's and put 50% of them down. The 50% of them I put down, regardless of what they are, are completely annihilated by Manticores, Wyverns, Stormravens, Earthshakers (notice how multiple units that don't need line of sight to fire are appearing on this list), Raptors, Knight Crusaders, Purestrain Genestealers, Drop Plasma (Scion and CSM) on my opponent's first turn.

My own alpha strike causes nowhere near as much damage. The low AP on my guns can't punch through any of the armor on those vehicles and the Plasma already did its damage by the time I shoot back, I can't get close enough to smite them and most of them time, even when I do, I do 1 damage since they're not Daemons. Using the Index, I also fail most of my charges and can't reliably engage in combat from Deep Strike, which means on opponent turn 2 the remainder of the army gets wiped. I'm excited to re-roll charges now, but even with Warlord Trait you only have about a 52% chance of getting a charge off per unit.

By turn 3 I just have a handful of stragglers left while my opponent usually has around 50% or a bit more of his/her points on the table.

We're just too fragile for our point cost and low damage output. We either needed to get much tougher (like Custodes T5, 3W, 2+/3++ tough) or deal much more damage (better AP on these guns, not all of them being Heavy). None of the new abilities we got can help with this. Sanctuary is close but under Matched rules you can only cast it on ONE unit. The rest of your army is just as fragile as before.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/06 02:00:49


Post by: w0nderland


One possibility from the codex: I've started thinking about a ludicrous All Dreadknight list with the new Grand Master for a 1250 point tournament coming up in November.



++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Grey Knights) ++

+ HQ +

Grand Master Nemesis Dreadknight: Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Gatling Psilencer, Hammerhand, Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Daemon Greathammer

+ Heavy Support +

Nemesis Dreadknight: Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Gatling Psilencer, Hammerhand, Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Greatsword

Nemesis Dreadknight: Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Gatling Psilencer, Hammerhand, Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Greatsword

Nemesis Dreadknight: Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Gatling Psilencer, Hammerhand, Heavy Incinerator, Nemesis Greatsword



8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/06 06:34:41


Post by: HeavenLord


When you are saying that the Rifledread is no more allowed in the new codex, what does it mean?

The Venerable Dread is still allowed (with multi melta for example)? (I am playing two of them in my list)




8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/06 07:22:59


Post by: w0nderland


@HeavenLord The Rifledread option has been removed from the codex.

It is still in the FW armour codex, but requires the <CHAPTER> keyword. Grey Knights are not a chapter for these purposes.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/06 09:09:54


Post by: Gibs55


The Grandmasrer DK seems like a pretty good upgrade for 30 points.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/06 09:12:02


Post by: Slayersan


I don't think our Rifledreads are gone though unless I am not understanding a rule. Even though the Codex doesn't have the autocannon options you can just use the index datasheet and say screw it to the codex rules. GW specifically said that if a codex was missing options that it used to have (which they specifically mentioned dreadnought weapons), that you could the use the index rules. This is what I plan to do.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/05/codexes-your-questions-answered-july-5gw-homepage-post-2/


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/06 09:54:45


Post by: Gibs55


Lord Kaldor Draigo

GM Nemesis Dreadknight: dreadfist & Nemesis greatsword; heavy incinerator; gatling psilencer; Dreadknight teleporter

GM Nemesis Dreadknight: dreadfist & Nemesis greatsword; heavy incinerator; gatling psilencer; Dreadknight teleporter

3 Grey Knight Terminators: Justicar (Nemesis Daemon hammer); 2 Grey Knight Terminators; Nemesis warding stave; 2 Nemesis falchions, Storm Bolters

3 Grey Knight Terminators: Justicar (Nemesis Daemon hammer); 2 Grey Knight Terminators; Nemesis warding stave; 2 Nemesis falchions, Storm Bolters

3 Grey Knight Terminators: Justicar (Nemesis Daemon hammer); 2 Grey Knight Terminators; Nemesis warding stave; 2 Nemesis falchions, Storm Bolters

Paladin Ancient: Nemesis falchion 142

5 Paladins: Paragon (Nemesis Daemon hammer); 4 Paladins; Nemesis warding stave; Nemesis Daemon hammer; 2 × 2 Nemesis falchions; 4 × storm bolters


Stormraven Gunship: twin lascannon; twin multi-melta; 2 hurricane bolters

1,980 points approx

How do you think this could be improved based on what we have seen? I am jut about to start modelling my Termies/Pala so keen to get an idea of what direction to head in.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/06 14:07:39


Post by: Herod


 Slayersan wrote:
I don't think our Rifledreads are gone though unless I am not understanding a rule. Even though the Codex doesn't have the autocannon options you can just use the index datasheet and say screw it to the codex rules. GW specifically said that if a codex was missing options that it used to have (which they specifically mentioned dreadnought weapons), that you could the use the index rules. This is what I plan to do.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/05/codexes-your-questions-answered-july-5gw-homepage-post-2/



I was reading the comments about the "squatted" dread as well, but the quote from GW covers the dread explicitly, "certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box."


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/06 19:10:51


Post by: Bigfashizzel


Audustum wrote:
Bigfashizzel wrote:
I think the codex looks amazing. I don't know why you all seem disappointed.

Purge Soul and Vortex of Doom are absolutely insane.

Take two detachments and make one of them something else.

GKs OWN the psychic phase. If you want shooting phase shooty, take a different detachment!. You are not limited at all. Pull in some AM or SM and crap blast from a distance, stop trying to force it with GK.

With that said, I think we actually have a very strong shooting phase, but we are a midrange shooting army. Storm Bolters are real winners this edition. Psilencers are fantastic, and the new "Astral Aim" ability is out of control.

I get that it might be hard to think through what might be good, but what exact issues are you having in your games? I haven't found anything that is limiting my enthusiasm for GK. I understand that's personal experience and anecdotal, but please indicate what issues you're facing!!


I play in an extremely competitive group. So here's what happens:

I reserve 50% of my GK's and put 50% of them down. The 50% of them I put down, regardless of what they are, are completely annihilated by Manticores, Wyverns, Stormravens, Earthshakers (notice how multiple units that don't need line of sight to fire are appearing on this list), Raptors, Knight Crusaders, Purestrain Genestealers, Drop Plasma (Scion and CSM) on my opponent's first turn.

My own alpha strike causes nowhere near as much damage. The low AP on my guns can't punch through any of the armor on those vehicles and the Plasma already did its damage by the time I shoot back, I can't get close enough to smite them and most of them time, even when I do, I do 1 damage since they're not Daemons. Using the Index, I also fail most of my charges and can't reliably engage in combat from Deep Strike, which means on opponent turn 2 the remainder of the army gets wiped. I'm excited to re-roll charges now, but even with Warlord Trait you only have about a 52% chance of getting a charge off per unit.

By turn 3 I just have a handful of stragglers left while my opponent usually has around 50% or a bit more of his/her points on the table.

We're just too fragile for our point cost and low damage output. We either needed to get much tougher (like Custodes T5, 3W, 2+/3++ tough) or deal much more damage (better AP on these guns, not all of them being Heavy). None of the new abilities we got can help with this. Sanctuary is close but under Matched rules you can only cast it on ONE unit. The rest of your army is just as fragile as before.


You can take the same units if you want. You can run 5 land raiders, you can build an all flier list or an all dread knight list. I guess it's cool to look at a hammer and try to turn it into a pair of scissors, but if your meta is dominated by alpha strike lists, you might need an alpha strike list. Or you might need units that are more survivable on the table.

Why aren't you using Land Raiders? Dreadknights and dreadnoughts? Stormravens?



8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/06 19:40:38


Post by: Audustum


Bigfashizzel wrote:
Audustum wrote:
Bigfashizzel wrote:
I think the codex looks amazing. I don't know why you all seem disappointed.

Purge Soul and Vortex of Doom are absolutely insane.

Take two detachments and make one of them something else.

GKs OWN the psychic phase. If you want shooting phase shooty, take a different detachment!. You are not limited at all. Pull in some AM or SM and crap blast from a distance, stop trying to force it with GK.

With that said, I think we actually have a very strong shooting phase, but we are a midrange shooting army. Storm Bolters are real winners this edition. Psilencers are fantastic, and the new "Astral Aim" ability is out of control.

I get that it might be hard to think through what might be good, but what exact issues are you having in your games? I haven't found anything that is limiting my enthusiasm for GK. I understand that's personal experience and anecdotal, but please indicate what issues you're facing!!


I play in an extremely competitive group. So here's what happens:

I reserve 50% of my GK's and put 50% of them down. The 50% of them I put down, regardless of what they are, are completely annihilated by Manticores, Wyverns, Stormravens, Earthshakers (notice how multiple units that don't need line of sight to fire are appearing on this list), Raptors, Knight Crusaders, Purestrain Genestealers, Drop Plasma (Scion and CSM) on my opponent's first turn.

My own alpha strike causes nowhere near as much damage. The low AP on my guns can't punch through any of the armor on those vehicles and the Plasma already did its damage by the time I shoot back, I can't get close enough to smite them and most of them time, even when I do, I do 1 damage since they're not Daemons. Using the Index, I also fail most of my charges and can't reliably engage in combat from Deep Strike, which means on opponent turn 2 the remainder of the army gets wiped. I'm excited to re-roll charges now, but even with Warlord Trait you only have about a 52% chance of getting a charge off per unit.

By turn 3 I just have a handful of stragglers left while my opponent usually has around 50% or a bit more of his/her points on the table.

We're just too fragile for our point cost and low damage output. We either needed to get much tougher (like Custodes T5, 3W, 2+/3++ tough) or deal much more damage (better AP on these guns, not all of them being Heavy). None of the new abilities we got can help with this. Sanctuary is close but under Matched rules you can only cast it on ONE unit. The rest of your army is just as fragile as before.


You can take the same units if you want. You can run 5 land raiders, you can build an all flier list or an all dread knight list. I guess it's cool to look at a hammer and try to turn it into a pair of scissors, but if your meta is dominated by alpha strike lists, you might need an alpha strike list. Or you might need units that are more survivable on the table.

Why aren't you using Land Raiders? Dreadknights and dreadnoughts? Stormravens?



?

I AM using Dreadnoughts and Dreadknights. Who said I didn't? They die just as fast as Terminators. You ever see what a single unit of 20 Purestrains can do with to a Nought or DK?

If I'm going to run a list of all Landraiders and Stormravens there are other factions (like Ultramarine) that can do it significantly better and it's pointless to have the GK moniker.

And FYI, I do play multiple factions. I'd just like GW to make it so my wonderful Knights aren't completely ineffectual.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/06 20:55:30


Post by: Smotejob


Audustum wrote:
Bigfashizzel wrote:
Audustum wrote:
Bigfashizzel wrote:
I think the codex looks amazing. I don't know why you all seem disappointed.

Purge Soul and Vortex of Doom are absolutely insane.

Take two detachments and make one of them something else.

GKs OWN the psychic phase. If you want shooting phase shooty, take a different detachment!. You are not limited at all. Pull in some AM or SM and crap blast from a distance, stop trying to force it with GK.

With that said, I think we actually have a very strong shooting phase, but we are a midrange shooting army. Storm Bolters are real winners this edition. Psilencers are fantastic, and the new "Astral Aim" ability is out of control.

I get that it might be hard to think through what might be good, but what exact issues are you having in your games? I haven't found anything that is limiting my enthusiasm for GK. I understand that's personal experience and anecdotal, but please indicate what issues you're facing!!


I play in an extremely competitive group. So here's what happens:

I reserve 50% of my GK's and put 50% of them down. The 50% of them I put down, regardless of what they are, are completely annihilated by Manticores, Wyverns, Stormravens, Earthshakers (notice how multiple units that don't need line of sight to fire are appearing on this list), Raptors, Knight Crusaders, Purestrain Genestealers, Drop Plasma (Scion and CSM) on my opponent's first turn.

My own alpha strike causes nowhere near as much damage. The low AP on my guns can't punch through any of the armor on those vehicles and the Plasma already did its damage by the time I shoot back, I can't get close enough to smite them and most of them time, even when I do, I do 1 damage since they're not Daemons. Using the Index, I also fail most of my charges and can't reliably engage in combat from Deep Strike, which means on opponent turn 2 the remainder of the army gets wiped. I'm excited to re-roll charges now, but even with Warlord Trait you only have about a 52% chance of getting a charge off per unit.

By turn 3 I just have a handful of stragglers left while my opponent usually has around 50% or a bit more of his/her points on the table.

We're just too fragile for our point cost and low damage output. We either needed to get much tougher (like Custodes T5, 3W, 2+/3++ tough) or deal much more damage (better AP on these guns, not all of them being Heavy). None of the new abilities we got can help with this. Sanctuary is close but under Matched rules you can only cast it on ONE unit. The rest of your army is just as fragile as before.


You can take the same units if you want. You can run 5 land raiders, you can build an all flier list or an all dread knight list. I guess it's cool to look at a hammer and try to turn it into a pair of scissors, but if your meta is dominated by alpha strike lists, you might need an alpha strike list. Or you might need units that are more survivable on the table.

Why aren't you using Land Raiders? Dreadknights and dreadnoughts? Stormravens?



?

I AM using Dreadnoughts and Dreadknights. Who said I didn't? They die just as fast as Terminators. You ever see what a single unit of 20 Purestrains can do with to a Nought or DK?

If I'm going to run a list of all Landraiders and Stormravens there are other factions (like Ultramarine) that can do it significantly better and it's pointless to have the GK moniker.

And FYI, I do play multiple factions. I'd just like GW to make it so my wonderful Knights aren't completely ineffectual.


To piggy back... I was playing against a guard list the other day. Had a full storm Raven and interceptors hiding on turn 1 against a guard Scion/conscripts/artillery list. Dude used one of his 12 cp to reroll seize. He gets it. My storm Raven, the dreadnought, 10purifiers, 10 interceptors and Crowe we're dead before I could do anything. I was tabled by turn 2 as my strike squads just couldn't chew through enough bodies.

Really frustrated me about the grey knights. How are you all dealing with these lists?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/06 21:04:50


Post by: Audustum


 Smotejob wrote:
Audustum wrote:
Bigfashizzel wrote:
Audustum wrote:
Bigfashizzel wrote:
I think the codex looks amazing. I don't know why you all seem disappointed.

Purge Soul and Vortex of Doom are absolutely insane.

Take two detachments and make one of them something else.

GKs OWN the psychic phase. If you want shooting phase shooty, take a different detachment!. You are not limited at all. Pull in some AM or SM and crap blast from a distance, stop trying to force it with GK.

With that said, I think we actually have a very strong shooting phase, but we are a midrange shooting army. Storm Bolters are real winners this edition. Psilencers are fantastic, and the new "Astral Aim" ability is out of control.

I get that it might be hard to think through what might be good, but what exact issues are you having in your games? I haven't found anything that is limiting my enthusiasm for GK. I understand that's personal experience and anecdotal, but please indicate what issues you're facing!!


I play in an extremely competitive group. So here's what happens:

I reserve 50% of my GK's and put 50% of them down. The 50% of them I put down, regardless of what they are, are completely annihilated by Manticores, Wyverns, Stormravens, Earthshakers (notice how multiple units that don't need line of sight to fire are appearing on this list), Raptors, Knight Crusaders, Purestrain Genestealers, Drop Plasma (Scion and CSM) on my opponent's first turn.

My own alpha strike causes nowhere near as much damage. The low AP on my guns can't punch through any of the armor on those vehicles and the Plasma already did its damage by the time I shoot back, I can't get close enough to smite them and most of them time, even when I do, I do 1 damage since they're not Daemons. Using the Index, I also fail most of my charges and can't reliably engage in combat from Deep Strike, which means on opponent turn 2 the remainder of the army gets wiped. I'm excited to re-roll charges now, but even with Warlord Trait you only have about a 52% chance of getting a charge off per unit.

By turn 3 I just have a handful of stragglers left while my opponent usually has around 50% or a bit more of his/her points on the table.

We're just too fragile for our point cost and low damage output. We either needed to get much tougher (like Custodes T5, 3W, 2+/3++ tough) or deal much more damage (better AP on these guns, not all of them being Heavy). None of the new abilities we got can help with this. Sanctuary is close but under Matched rules you can only cast it on ONE unit. The rest of your army is just as fragile as before.


You can take the same units if you want. You can run 5 land raiders, you can build an all flier list or an all dread knight list. I guess it's cool to look at a hammer and try to turn it into a pair of scissors, but if your meta is dominated by alpha strike lists, you might need an alpha strike list. Or you might need units that are more survivable on the table.

Why aren't you using Land Raiders? Dreadknights and dreadnoughts? Stormravens?



?

I AM using Dreadnoughts and Dreadknights. Who said I didn't? They die just as fast as Terminators. You ever see what a single unit of 20 Purestrains can do with to a Nought or DK?

If I'm going to run a list of all Landraiders and Stormravens there are other factions (like Ultramarine) that can do it significantly better and it's pointless to have the GK moniker.

And FYI, I do play multiple factions. I'd just like GW to make it so my wonderful Knights aren't completely ineffectual.


To piggy back... I was playing against a guard list the other day. Had a full storm Raven and interceptors hiding on turn 1 against a guard Scion/conscripts/artillery list. Dude used one of his 12 cp to reroll seize. He gets it. My storm Raven, the dreadnought, 10purifiers, 10 interceptors and Crowe we're dead before I could do anything. I was tabled by turn 2 as my strike squads just couldn't chew through enough bodies.

Really frustrated me about the grey knights. How are you all dealing with these lists?


So the only thing I've done that's semi-effective with GK against these kinds of lists is to (assuming 2k point game) spend about 1k-1.2k on some other faction and then make a Vanguard or Spearhead detachment of GK to work as kind of an elite strike team (entirely within Deep Strike to keep them safe) and then coordinate their landing with the allied force hitting my enemy.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/06 21:23:43


Post by: Spartacus


Don't use bad experiences against IG as your reasoning for saying a particular codex is bad. Most of their units are massively undercosted and desperately need toning down or pricing up. Everyone else is also struggling to not get tabled by them.

I've been crushed by IG too, but also played several games against different opponents (Tau, Orks, Chaos and Space Wolves) and won all of them. Alpha strike from storm ravens and deepstrike is brutal and will only get better with this new codex


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/06 21:36:14


Post by: Audustum


Spartacus wrote:
Don't use bad experiences against IG as your reasoning for saying a particular codex is bad. Most of their units are massively undercosted and desperately need toning down or pricing up. Everyone else is also struggling to not get tabled by them.

I've been crushed by IG too, but also played several games against different opponents (Tau, Orks, Chaos and Space Wolves) and won all of them. Alpha strike from storm ravens and deepstrike is brutal and will only get better with this new codex


None of those armies you listed (except potentially Tau) is an emerging top tier army. It's not just Astra Militarum up there. Genestealers/Tyranids, Space Marines (particularly Ultramarines), from what I hear Dark Eldar/Harlequins/Ynnari and even CSM (who also just got a bunch of point reductions in their Codex) can brutalize us as bad as Astra Militarum.

I won't say we're bottom of the barrel, but we have no way to hang with the big kids and for an edition that's supposed to be super balanced that's a problem.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/06 22:09:53


Post by: Bigfashizzel


Well dang that's sad to hear. Your experience is valuable, I don't play against those lists. I guess we're not top tier.

I love the edition and rules, so I guess I'm just lucky to not play against those players.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/06 22:59:05


Post by: Rolling Thunder


So this is going to be a thing:

GK Ven dread with TL lascannon and ML. Takes Astral aim

Park it and a land raider nearby behind LOS blocking terrain/cover. Cast Astral aim on either unit, and profit. You get to ignore opposing cover as an added bonus.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/06 23:15:32


Post by: Gibs55


Rolling Thunder wrote:
So this is going to be a thing:

GK Ven dread with TL lascannon and ML. Takes Astral aim

Park it and a land raider nearby behind LOS blocking terrain/cover. Cast Astral aim on either unit, and profit. You get to ignore opposing cover as an added bonus.


Might not be so easy when you have fewer drops and their are plenty of flyers that can dish out serious damage. It will be one of those things where you take advantage of it when you, however its unlikely you would be able to reliably build around it.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/07 00:03:49


Post by: Quickjager


Anyone know if the rumor Paladins went DOWN in cost is true?

That's insane if so, insane as in I don't understand what internal balance is according to GW.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/07 00:22:29


Post by: Audustum


It's blurry, but when I pause the video on the points page it still looks like 53PPM.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/07 00:49:17


Post by: w0nderland


Paladins are definitely 53 in the video.

Battlescribe currently has them at 55.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/07 01:11:48


Post by: Audustum


 w0nderland wrote:
Paladins are definitely 53 in the video.

Battlescribe currently has them at 55.


Huh, my copy of Index 1 has them at 53.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/07 01:18:33


Post by: Freezerassasin


Audustum wrote:
 w0nderland wrote:
Paladins are definitely 53 in the video.

Battlescribe currently has them at 55.


Huh, my copy of Index 1 has them at 53.


Battlescribe probably has the cost of the storm bolter built in to the price standard.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/07 01:53:08


Post by: w0nderland


Yes. So 53 base, plus Bolter.

That's probably where the confusion has come through


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/07 07:57:24


Post by: Kahor


I really like the look of some of the stratagems and the psychic powers. Glad we got more powers to play with this time round.

Shame the terminators are unplayable due to points cost. Crowe looks like he'll be even more of a beast in combat now with that warlord trait.

Any idea what I can do with my dreadnoughts now? I have mine modelled with autocannons so I'd like to still use them as dakka dreads. Guess assault cannons or lascannons are the way forward but I'll have to snap an arm off each dread as you can't duel wield I presume?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/07 08:09:51


Post by: Coyote81


You can continue to use the index dreadnought sheet. Let your rifleman roam free!


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/07 09:37:34


Post by: Spartacus


I think WinterSEO made a mistake during his review when he read out the points cost for GM dreadknights. He says normal DKs are 160 while GM DKs are 190, making them 30 points more (which is the number Ive been using).

In the video you can see that normal DKs have stayed the same cost. Which is fine but means that a GM dreadknight upgrade actually costs 60 more points. Its very hard to make out but I think I can read the figure 190 by its entry on the points oage. Probably still worth it for the 2+ invuln monstrous creature shenanigans, but lame.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/07 09:45:29


Post by: Kahor


 Coyote81 wrote:
You can continue to use the index dreadnought sheet. Let your rifleman roam free!


How can I do this? My understanding was that the codex overrides the index unless the codex does not contain an entry for the unit. It almost certainly contains an entry for a dreadnought and therefore overrides the index.

I also cannot take the FW one as it has been specifically stated that it cannot be GK in their FAQ.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/07 09:58:14


Post by: Spartacus


That is incorrect. The GW page adressing it says certain options may be missing from the codex in which case use the index.

They even specifically mention dreadnought load outs as an example.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/07 10:05:50


Post by: Kahor


Spartacus wrote:
That is incorrect. The GW page adressing it says certain options may be missing from the codex in which case use the index.

They even specifically mention dreadnought load outs as an example.


So it's done on an option by option basis? That is incredibly stupid and just sounds like they're trying to make up for missing things in the codex that people have noticed. I won't complain about being able to keep the autocannon dreads but then we'll have to use both the index and the codex no? What a mess


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/07 10:13:03


Post by: Spartacus


Is it really that big a deal? Still not sure why people seem all flustered over this. Its a non issue in any case.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/07 15:17:48


Post by: L0adedDice


Quick question regarding the dread knight.
Seems if you give him a great hammer he also still has his dread fist.
Would I have to split his 4 attacks between the weapons or can I make all 4 with the hammer profile?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/07 15:46:16


Post by: Audustum


L0adedDice wrote:
Quick question regarding the dread knight.
Seems if you give him a great hammer he also still has his dread fist.
Would I have to split his 4 attacks between the weapons or can I make all 4 with the hammer profile?


You can make all 4 with the hammer if you want to or you can split. It's your choice.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/07 16:12:27


Post by: Kahor


I've just been reading through some of the Chaos release notes for their codex in the other thread. I feel like we've really got a raw deal in GK by comparison with the SM and Chaos codices so far. Is it just me?

Looks like they've got lots of new toys and bonuses plus a bunch of points decreases. On our side we've had basically no point decreases (in the case of terminators they've actually gone up 2 points?!) and I do like the psychic powers and some of the stratagems but still feels inferior I suppose when the base model you're putting all these things on costs so much more. I'm probably not explaining this very well but does anyone understand what I mean?

At the end of the day we're still S4, T4, 3+ but pay through the nose for it. (maybe just feeling ranty after reading the chaos stuff)


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/07 17:29:16


Post by: Zarroc1733


 Quickjager wrote:
...So it is possible to have a Brigade detachment of nothing but Grey Knights, but it sucks...

Everyone who can has falchions.

HQ
Draigo
Brotherhood Champ

Troop
GKSS - Vanilla x 6

Elites
Apothecary - Hammer x 2
Apothecary - Vanilla x 1

Fast Attack
Interceptor Squad - Vanilla x 3

Heavy Support
Purgation - 4 Psilencers x 3

Just under 2k points, what does it get us?

- 12 CP so we can actually use these stratagems
- Everything in Power Armor except for 4 models
- 65 models on the board divided by 17 units, so 8 possible deepstrikers
- Make the Bro. Champ Warlord for the charge reroll
- Obj. Secured and Psychic Mastery

What would the strategy be with this list? Well we have 12 CP, so lets start spending that CP to put extra units into deepstrike, Bro. Champ is in the chamber, -1 CP.

8 units go in, we already got 1, 7 more.
- Draigo
- Apothecary Hammer
- Apothecary Hammer
- GKSS
- GKSS
- GKSS
- GKSS

Why not the Purgations? Because we want the melee to actually be in melee and not having the enemy removing models for a harder charge. Purgation are just gonna have to hoof it up the board. The last 2 GKSS will provide an escort, the enemy will have reserves on some kind of course. The last Apoth. can replenish models as they walk up because he probably won't be doing anything else.

Interceptors shunt up the board.

All of a sudden we have 10 units for a total of 38 force-sword wielding models in the face w/ 11 CP left. We won't be using the bolter weapon stratagem because we don't have a 10 man unit to benefit.

But is the enough? I have no idea. Do we NEED 9+ CP? Probably not.

But I know I don't have that many PA Grey Knights, I don't think it is a good list either. Thoughts?



One issue with your list. You need 3 HQs to run a brigade.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/07 17:49:21


Post by: Gest


Kahor wrote:
I've just been reading through some of the Chaos release notes for their codex in the other thread. I feel like we've really got a raw deal in GK by comparison with the SM and Chaos codices so far. Is it just me?

[..]


Don't worry Kahor,
this is the general opinion of the trainwreck that is our new Codex.

We got some good Stratagems that we can't really use because GK are so expensive that they can't really abuse detachements, we got some nice psychic powers..which don't do much because the psychic phase is the weakest of the phases. Our relics are rather weak, but we have 2 good Warlord traits.
Half of our Units are unusable, but hey..we got 2 new fliers. Welcome to Greyknights.

Don't forget your new Chaplain on the way out, because no one wanted to use the ancient, because he's too expensive for the buff, so why not use the chaplain who does almost the same?

We became even more of a one trick pony "win alpha strike or lose" Army than in the index, which is no fun to play at all. GG WP


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/07 21:19:19


Post by: Quickjager


 Zarroc1733 wrote:

One issue with your list. You need 3 HQs to run a brigade.


...Well feth.

Have to drop Draigo, take two chaplains then depending on their point cost.

Ughhhh. But Draigo is so gooooood...

Yea the Brigade detachment is a fool's dream. Probably. Hard to imagine this playing out.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/07 21:44:51


Post by: Kahor


I feel like we'll be able to do some good psychic shenanigans but no matter what we do it will be an uphill battle. This will be because my opponent will just sit there with guileman and reroll everything in the gunline (I've heard about 3 triple-las preds?!).

I'm going to see what I can get out of the codex and what combinations of stratagem/psychic powers can be done. My main worry is that the base point costs are just too high compared with all the reductions that the other 2 codexes (so far) have had.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/07 22:19:19


Post by: Elmir


Well, if you really want to have loads of CPs for your GKs, there's almost no other way than to ally in IG.

Luckily, you can get an IG battalion for less than 250 points in the form of 3 infantry squads with heavy weapon and 2 company commanders for 30p each. Do that twice and you'll have 60 expendable guards with say 6 autocannons and 4 company commanders to ensure they all get to shoot with an order.

On top of that, the cheap and plentiful guard units can ensure you get lots of things to cram into that teleport chamber.

Just have to make sure you hide those IG quite well, since you will very likely be the last one to finish deployment if you overdo it.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/07 22:25:50


Post by: jcd386


I could definitely see a viable GK strategy being to take enough cheap guard units to be at 50%, go second, soak up a turn of shooting on the guard units, then drop in all of the GK stuff to kill things.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/08 00:05:20


Post by: w0nderland


Great!

Buys 50 boxes of guards.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/08 00:07:00


Post by: Quickjager


Do we even call ourselves GK players at that point...


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/08 00:14:21


Post by: Gest


Yeah, I have a big problem with the statement "I could definitely see a viable GK strategy being to take enough cheap guard units".

Because thats a design flaw. Thats playing IG with some GK units.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/08 00:19:20


Post by: Coyote81


 Quickjager wrote:
Do we even call ourselves GK players at that point...


Well I was a Daemon Hunter player first and foremost, GK worked for my Inquisitor, but the lore has changed since 4th ed days. I have no issues playing GK as an additive to my inquisition and IG.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/08 00:20:03


Post by: Audustum


Gest wrote:
Yeah, I have a big problem with the statement "I could definitely see a viable GK strategy being to take enough cheap guard units".

Because thats a design flaw. Thats playing IG with some GK units.


I dunno, the more I see the less I think GW means for us to be a standalone faction.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/08 00:31:43


Post by: jcd386


Well, you could do something similar with inquisitors and acolytes, who used to be a part of the GK codex, if you prefer that. That being said i imagine there are also viable pure GK builds, as well as mixed ones. And both are quite fluffy.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/08 01:54:32


Post by: TheMostWize


Gest wrote:
Yeah, I have a big problem with the statement "I could definitely see a viable GK strategy being to take enough cheap guard units".

Because thats a design flaw. Thats playing IG with some GK units.


I agree with this. Guess for now I'll finish painting my current units and start building another force. Maybe some Raven Guard or something.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/08 03:01:40


Post by: virus646


You want to have fluffy purist list (there are a lot of instances where GK allies with other armies when defending a world) or do you want competitive lists? I understand it might be sad that your definition of fluffy is not adequate against certain armies but I don't see anything wrong with multiple strike units, dakka dreads/doomglaive, DK HQ, storm raven, land raiders, etc. You can build a strong list using those options, maybe not the most competitive one but some of you are not looking for that anyway.

I feel a lot of negativity comes from facing a list with a badly built list and expecting miracle to happens. Astra is one of the stronger out there, you can also expect them to change soon.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/08 03:29:52


Post by: Quickjager


You make no sense... not surprising.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/08 04:49:59


Post by: Thenord


I'm really excited about the new codex! We get more fliers, even Better psyk, GM on dreadknight and overall a lot more feel and flavor to our army.

Besides, it's the same thing every time gw release a New codex: anticipation at first, then the "omg we're getting so nerfed it's unfair!!" And then a couple of weeks after release, people find out Everything is actually all right... No it might not be über competitive, but cmon... take it as a challenge..


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/08 05:14:39


Post by: Smotejob


I think Mass storm bolter spam is even more a thing with psybolts now. Three strike squads can easily pull down a leman Russ (wounding on 5, and they only get a 4+ ) with just shooting alone. Add in a mass power armor drop/shunt and you have a ton of fire power. Add in psychic smite spam/Purge soul/vortex
Then with the reroll charge trait? This is a hard tac alpha strike. Then take a grand master dreadknight toting a 3++save.

The strength of the grey knights is the ability to deal damage in all three phases.

It's the only build I can think of right now but it's something?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/08 07:22:35


Post by: Elmir


 Quickjager wrote:
Do we even call ourselves GK players at that point...


I do, but I'm an old fart that started this army in the old Codex Daemonhunters... So having cheap expendable guard with a bunch of silver knights teleporting in is very much returning to it's roots.

Back when you had "inducted Imperial guard" units as an actual codex entry.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/08 09:03:25


Post by: bloodoffi


Does anyone has any idea on how to use a GM DK? I see that he haw a lot potential but the enemy can snipe him from afar cause he has more wounds than 8. Also i would prefer a librarian with a shield and a hammer or a staff.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/08 09:33:40


Post by: Spartacus


 bloodoffi wrote:
Does anyone has any idea on how to use a GM DK? I see that he haw a lot potential but the enemy can snipe him from afar cause he has more wounds than 8. Also i would prefer a librarian with a shield and a hammer or a staff.


I was planning to take him as a secondary HQ in a detachment with 2 HQ's and 3 Troops (I forget the name) This gives you a total of 6 CP's to work with, which means you can give him +1 invuln save for 3 turns. Also, cast sanctuary on him every turn. Deepstrike him in turn 1. Your opponent will be forced to either let him run rampant across the table or blunt all his firepower trying to punch through his T6 2+/2++ (or 3++) save and 12 wounds. Either way you'll have the initiative by forcing them into a rock and hard place situation. Give him a psycannon and psilencer and also use the +1 to strength and AP stratagem if you really wanna go for the throat.

Just don't let him get tarpitted by conscripts I guess.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/08 10:03:20


Post by: Elmir


Him getting tarpitted can be fixed by giving him GoI. It was faq'ed that you can use it to port out of combat without any penalties. Sanctuary would be my second choice for him ofc.

I'm still thinking of using him as the warlord (fully aware of the risk, but playing very offensively seems to be part of the GK playstyle anyway) with First into the fray.

I still plan to combine him with a second imperial detachment of 3 IG infantry squad, company commander and possibly an inquisitor to feed the CP to him to use heed the prognosticars...

I think combining a small IG detachment with a main GK battalion using strikes with razorback to have enough troops on the table to allow a lot of deepstrikes, it can become a very aggressive force with quite a bit of long range lascannon/autocannon firepower in the backfield.

I just have to use my new toy:


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/08 11:45:46


Post by: Coyote81


Sexy GMDK for sure.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/08 12:18:55


Post by: Xenomancers


That looks amazing I must say.

For those of you who are thinking about including allies in your GK force - you are really missing out on the best features of the army. +1 to psychic tests and deny the witch. I'm not giving up that bonus for command points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think it's best to focus on the 2 battalion approach. 9 command points is more than enough. + Strike Squads are good.

The only issue with that is 4 required HQ's. GMDK kinda makes that NOT an issue anymore.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/08 13:32:47


Post by: Elmir


Xenomancers, that's not how it works.

The rules knights of titan and brotherhood of Psykers will apply to any pure DETACHMENTS, not pure armies as a whole. (side requirement, the whole army needs to be battleforged).

So you will not lose those 2 rules if you have a main GK detachment, coupled with a small detachment to up your CP count.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/08 13:39:54


Post by: virus646


Nice GMDK Elmir!


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/08 13:49:12


Post by: Coyote81


 Elmir wrote:
Xenomancers, that's not how it works.

The rules knights of titan and brotherhood of Psykers will apply to any pure DETACHMENTS, not pure armies as a whole. (side requirement, the whole army needs to be battleforged).

So you will not lose those 2 rules if you have a main GK detachment, coupled with a small detachment to up your CP count.


THIS, this is exactly how my army will be compromised after my konor campaign is over. (We can only use new datasheets, not other rules from new release codexs.)


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/08 14:38:48


Post by: Youn


Don't know if anyone noticed but Grey Knight Librarians now have Rites of Banishment. Which they didn't have in the Index.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/08 15:08:19


Post by: Sledgio


Hi, I'm looking at maybe starting a GK army mainly for a painting/modelling challenge, but I also want it to be vaguely fun to play on the tabletop (as in, not auto-lose T1 or 2).

I've got some great conversion ideas for Dreadknights, so ideally I would build a 1500 list around about 4 of them, including the Grand Master HQ one. I think a Librarian seems like a good addition, but what else? Any ideas are much appreciated.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/08 15:31:54


Post by: Xenomancers


 Elmir wrote:
Xenomancers, that's not how it works.

The rules knights of titan and brotherhood of Psykers will apply to any pure DETACHMENTS, not pure armies as a whole. (side requirement, the whole army needs to be battleforged).

So you will not lose those 2 rules if you have a main GK detachment, coupled with a small detachment to up your CP count.

Interesting. So when the Codex says "if you include only grey-knights in your ARMY" they really just mean detachment?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm not sure if any points changed for anything but going by what I know - this list is 2k points. Pure greyknight alpha strike.

Battalion

Dragio
GMDK (Warlord) Psycannon/Psilencer/Sword/teleporter

10x Strike Squad / Hammer Justicar
10x Strike Squad / Hammer Justicar
5x Strike Squad

Stormraven TLLC/TLMM/ Huricane bolters

Outrider

GMDK Psycannon/Psilencer/Sword/teleporter

5x Interceptors
5x Interceptors
5x Interceptors

Not sure If Draigo is needed here or if more bodies and a cheap HQ would be better. Something like this will be my first attempt at the new codex.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/08 15:43:59


Post by: Audustum


 Xenomancers wrote:
 Elmir wrote:
Xenomancers, that's not how it works.

The rules knights of titan and brotherhood of Psykers will apply to any pure DETACHMENTS, not pure armies as a whole. (side requirement, the whole army needs to be battleforged).

So you will not lose those 2 rules if you have a main GK detachment, coupled with a small detachment to up your CP count.

Interesting. So when the Codex says "if you include only grey-knights in your ARMY" they really just mean detachment?



You're just looking in the wrong spot. If you look in the preamble to those special rules it specifically says detachment just like the Space Marine Codex does.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/08 23:41:18


Post by: w0nderland


@Xenomancers my reading of the codex in the video is that the detachments need to be all GK, not the whole army to secure the bonuses. so a secondary detachment doesn't negate the GK buffs.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/09 05:52:07


Post by: Aijec


 w0nderland wrote:
@Xenomancers my reading of the codex in the video is that the detachments need to be all GK, not the whole army to secure the bonuses. so a secondary detachment doesn't negate the GK buffs.


Allies still exist in the sense that what Xeno is saying is accurate. To get special chapter tactics or special GK rules an entire DETACHMENT needs to be drawn from the same chapter.

You can do a detachment from raven and one from imperial fists and still get both bonus'.

If the wording is different from book to book I'm sure that's a mistake. They've made it clear it's on a detachment basis.

Honestly GK really need this as their options for backfield objective holders are pretty limited.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Audustum wrote:
Bigfashizzel wrote:
I think the codex looks amazing. I don't know why you all seem disappointed.

Purge Soul and Vortex of Doom are absolutely insane.

Take two detachments and make one of them something else.

GKs OWN the psychic phase. If you want shooting phase shooty, take a different detachment!. You are not limited at all. Pull in some AM or SM and crap blast from a distance, stop trying to force it with GK.

With that said, I think we actually have a very strong shooting phase, but we are a midrange shooting army. Storm Bolters are real winners this edition. Psilencers are fantastic, and the new "Astral Aim" ability is out of control.

I get that it might be hard to think through what might be good, but what exact issues are you having in your games? I haven't found anything that is limiting my enthusiasm for GK. I understand that's personal experience and anecdotal, but please indicate what issues you're facing!!


I play in an extremely competitive group. So here's what happens:

I reserve 50% of my GK's and put 50% of them down. The 50% of them I put down, regardless of what they are, are completely annihilated by Manticores, Wyverns, Stormravens, Earthshakers (notice how multiple units that don't need line of sight to fire are appearing on this list), Raptors, Knight Crusaders, Purestrain Genestealers, Drop Plasma (Scion and CSM) on my opponent's first turn.

My own alpha strike causes nowhere near as much damage. The low AP on my guns can't punch through any of the armor on those vehicles and the Plasma already did its damage by the time I shoot back, I can't get close enough to smite them and most of them time, even when I do, I do 1 damage since they're not Daemons. Using the Index, I also fail most of my charges and can't reliably engage in combat from Deep Strike, which means on opponent turn 2 the remainder of the army gets wiped. I'm excited to re-roll charges now, but even with Warlord Trait you only have about a 52% chance of getting a charge off per unit.

By turn 3 I just have a handful of stragglers left while my opponent usually has around 50% or a bit more of his/her points on the table.

We're just too fragile for our point cost and low damage output. We either needed to get much tougher (like Custodes T5, 3W, 2+/3++ tough) or deal much more damage (better AP on these guns, not all of them being Heavy). None of the new abilities we got can help with this. Sanctuary is close but under Matched rules you can only cast it on ONE unit. The rest of your army is just as fragile as before.


If you are judging codexes purely by how effective they are against the absolute best armies then be prepared for a lot of disappointment. Only a couple books at any one time fit into this tier.

I LOVE the new codex. Reroll charge warlord trait is insanely good and so is the banner relic combined with a brother captain. Our psychic powers are tier one and so is +1 to tests.

The stratagems are strong especially with the nemesis grand master. I think the 2 cp +1 invul is absolute garbage.

I don't see us wanting any heavy weapons on anyone but characters. 4+ bs just sucks.

I'm imagining my alpha strike squads in two deepstriking components.

Vs. Monsters/Elite targets
Grand Master /w Hammer and Psycannon
Brother Captain /w Hammer and Psycannon
Chapter Ancient /w relic banner and Falchion
10 Halberd Strike Squad /w Stormbolters

Vs. MEQ or Blobs
Grand Master Nemesis Knight
Heavy Psilencer
Heavy Psycannon
10 Halberd Strike Squad /w Stormbolters

Any ideas for efficient backfield options?

Is gate of infinity-ing a land raider any good? 24 bolter shots that can turn into heavy bolter shots seems strong.



8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/09 08:49:27


Post by: Gest


 Aijec wrote:
Is gate of infinity-ing a land raider any good? 24 bolter shots that can turn into heavy bolter shots seems strong.




I really really like the idea of a GOI-ing Landraider Crusader (I asked the same question a couple of pages ago), it must be cool to get in position quick. And you can load it with 15 PAGK and a GM for added Dakka (if you are fancy you could even do 3 Purgation Squads with 12 Psilencers).
But it eats up so many points.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/09 12:43:31


Post by: Thenord


What do people Think about the new fliers we get? Personally I'm super excited and very tempted to run 2 stormtalons maybe even 3..


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/09 12:59:00


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Thenord wrote:
What do people Think about the new fliers we get? Personally I'm super excited and very tempted to run 2 stormtalons maybe even 3..

As long as they're still relatively cheap I'm gonna run them.

I'm personally more excited about running a commander with the stupidly cool storm Bolter we have access to. I might even run a allied detachment of Paladins and a Grand Master for it just because.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/09 13:36:55


Post by: DarkOnes


Youn wrote:
Don't know if anyone noticed but Grey Knight Librarians now have Rites of Banishment. Which they didn't have in the Index.


Wow that is a huge smack in the face to Grey Knight Librarians! It looks like they also lost the ability to carry a storm shield, but that wasn't surprising to me.

They really fethed up this codex!


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/09 13:50:33


Post by: Xenomancers


Gest wrote:
 Aijec wrote:
Is gate of infinity-ing a land raider any good? 24 bolter shots that can turn into heavy bolter shots seems strong.




I really really like the idea of a GOI-ing Landraider Crusader (I asked the same question a couple of pages ago), it must be cool to get in position quick. And you can load it with 15 PAGK and a GM for added Dakka (if you are fancy you could even do 3 Purgation Squads with 12 Psilencers).
But it eats up so many points.
Purifiers would make the most sense.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/09 13:57:49


Post by: daedalus


DarkOnes wrote:

Wow that is a huge smack in the face to Grey Knight Librarians! It looks like they also lost the ability to carry a storm shield, but that wasn't surprising to me.

They really fethed up this codex!


I really want to reserve judgement until I have the codex in my hands, but it's not really looking too good at this point, is it?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/09 15:46:08


Post by: Aijec


 daedalus wrote:
DarkOnes wrote:

Wow that is a huge smack in the face to Grey Knight Librarians! It looks like they also lost the ability to carry a storm shield, but that wasn't surprising to me.

They really fethed up this codex!


I really want to reserve judgement until I have the codex in my hands, but it's not really looking too good at this point, is it?


It's looking great... stop being a wuss.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/09 16:12:00


Post by: Quickjager


 Aijec wrote:
 daedalus wrote:
DarkOnes wrote:

Wow that is a huge smack in the face to Grey Knight Librarians! It looks like they also lost the ability to carry a storm shield, but that wasn't surprising to me.

They really fethed up this codex!


I really want to reserve judgement until I have the codex in my hands, but it's not really looking too good at this point, is it?


It's looking great... stop being a wuss.


Make me GW.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/09 16:50:08


Post by: Xenomancers


 Aijec wrote:
 daedalus wrote:
DarkOnes wrote:

Wow that is a huge smack in the face to Grey Knight Librarians! It looks like they also lost the ability to carry a storm shield, but that wasn't surprising to me.

They really fethed up this codex!


I really want to reserve judgement until I have the codex in my hands, but it's not really looking too good at this point, is it?


It's looking great... stop being a wuss.

I'm with you - this is a lot better than I was expecting - still a lot of issues - but at least we can properly alpha strike now with our warlord trait. At least we can put a somewhat survivable unit out there now with sanctuary and command points. At least we have some offensive power spells that aren't 1damage smite.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/09 16:59:12


Post by: Thenord


 Aijec wrote:
 daedalus wrote:
DarkOnes wrote:

Wow that is a huge smack in the face to Grey Knight Librarians! It looks like they also lost the ability to carry a storm shield, but that wasn't surprising to me.

They really fethed up this codex!


I really want to reserve judgement until I have the codex in my hands, but it's not really looking too good at this point, is it?


It's looking great... stop being a wuss.


Second this!


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/09 17:24:37


Post by: daedalus


 Aijec wrote:

It's looking great... stop being a wuss.

Hey, GW PR Division, while you're here, could you get a message back to the guys who write the rules and let them know that Terminators are still by all appearances a little expensive? I mean, I know it's a bit early to jump the gun on worrying about that but that's like half my ar... er... half the new models I was thinking about buying but now probably am going to spend on *warmachine now! Yeah, that's it.

* Not gonna spend a dime on that game.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/09 18:01:49


Post by: Audustum


 Aijec wrote:
 w0nderland wrote:
@Xenomancers my reading of the codex in the video is that the detachments need to be all GK, not the whole army to secure the bonuses. so a secondary detachment doesn't negate the GK buffs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Audustum wrote:
Bigfashizzel wrote:
I think the codex looks amazing. I don't know why you all seem disappointed.

Purge Soul and Vortex of Doom are absolutely insane.

Take two detachments and make one of them something else.

GKs OWN the psychic phase. If you want shooting phase shooty, take a different detachment!. You are not limited at all. Pull in some AM or SM and crap blast from a distance, stop trying to force it with GK.

With that said, I think we actually have a very strong shooting phase, but we are a midrange shooting army. Storm Bolters are real winners this edition. Psilencers are fantastic, and the new "Astral Aim" ability is out of control.

I get that it might be hard to think through what might be good, but what exact issues are you having in your games? I haven't found anything that is limiting my enthusiasm for GK. I understand that's personal experience and anecdotal, but please indicate what issues you're facing!!


I play in an extremely competitive group. So here's what happens:

I reserve 50% of my GK's and put 50% of them down. The 50% of them I put down, regardless of what they are, are completely annihilated by Manticores, Wyverns, Stormravens, Earthshakers (notice how multiple units that don't need line of sight to fire are appearing on this list), Raptors, Knight Crusaders, Purestrain Genestealers, Drop Plasma (Scion and CSM) on my opponent's first turn.

My own alpha strike causes nowhere near as much damage. The low AP on my guns can't punch through any of the armor on those vehicles and the Plasma already did its damage by the time I shoot back, I can't get close enough to smite them and most of them time, even when I do, I do 1 damage since they're not Daemons. Using the Index, I also fail most of my charges and can't reliably engage in combat from Deep Strike, which means on opponent turn 2 the remainder of the army gets wiped. I'm excited to re-roll charges now, but even with Warlord Trait you only have about a 52% chance of getting a charge off per unit.

By turn 3 I just have a handful of stragglers left while my opponent usually has around 50% or a bit more of his/her points on the table.

We're just too fragile for our point cost and low damage output. We either needed to get much tougher (like Custodes T5, 3W, 2+/3++ tough) or deal much more damage (better AP on these guns, not all of them being Heavy). None of the new abilities we got can help with this. Sanctuary is close but under Matched rules you can only cast it on ONE unit. The rest of your army is just as fragile as before.


If you are judging codexes purely by how effective they are against the absolute best armies then be prepared for a lot of disappointment. Only a couple books at any one time fit into this tier.

I LOVE the new codex. Reroll charge warlord trait is insanely good and so is the banner relic combined with a brother captain. Our psychic powers are tier one and so is +1 to tests.

The stratagems are strong especially with the nemesis grand master. I think the 2 cp +1 invul is absolute garbage.

I don't see us wanting any heavy weapons on anyone but characters. 4+ bs just sucks.



I'm sorry, but this is a cop-out. This is supposed to be the most play tested and balanced edition with GW attending tournaments to promote the scene and hype. You can't just wave your hands and say "all armies aren't equal"; all armies must be equal or close to it. Otherwise you're gonna lose sales, customers and hype.

And please note I am saying armies must be equal, not builds. Some armies will have more optimal builds than others, but we have NO optimal builds looking at this. The only armies we can hang with are Index armies and we may not be able to do that with many of them once they get Codexes.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/09 18:10:27


Post by: Elmir


Look, it really isn't a cop-out at this point. The GKs as an army (the mechanics, the relics, the strategems... They seem to work. without anything in there being utterly broken or abusable through stacking that shouldn't happen (that's what killed 8th).

The point costs are just not good atm. And guess what they can change in less than a year. Same for IG... but the situation is flipped now. So I'm not going to burn my collection just yet.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/09 18:17:31


Post by: Audustum


 Elmir wrote:
Look, it really isn't a cop-out at this point. The GKs as an army (the mechanics, the relics, the strategems... They seem to work. without anything in there being utterly broken or abusable through stacking that shouldn't happen (that's what killed 8th).

The point costs are just not good atm. And guess what they can change in less than a year. Same for IG... but the situation is flipped now. So I'm not going to burn my collection just yet.


Unless they're big drops I think we need a bit more than that. Namely:

1. HQ's shouldn't have babysmite. Let them have regular.

2. Incinerators should be Assault.

3. Psilencers should Rapid Fire 3 (6 for Dreads).

4. GM-DK's should be able to take more than 1 Relic.

5. Psycannons should at least be AP-2.

Doing this while dropping the base cost of Terminators 4PPM or so would alleviate tons of problems.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/09 18:35:00


Post by: daedalus


Lets go down this list:

Audustum wrote:

1. HQ's shouldn't have babysmite. Let them have regular.
2. Incinerators should be Assault.
3. Psilencers should Rapid Fire 3 (6 for Dreads).
4. GM-DK's should be able to take more than 1 Relic.
5. Psycannons should at least be AP-2.

1. I could see a case made for that. I mean, given the psyker start that we were talking about in the IG tactics thread weeks ago, it's not like they've been consistently worried about people doing this. Just GK doing it.
2. It's a minor concession, but I think that would make Incinerators go from "unlikely situational" to being "situational". I don't honestly like flamers (other than hellhounds) this edition anyway though.
3. That's an interesting change. It would actually be an overall loss of efficiency though, at least, for anything >12" range. It'd be better for <12".
4. I don't honestly have a good grasp on how the relics work. Are they a special case where they cannot but others can?
5. Much as I would like to see that, I can't say that'd be balanced. Better would be if they kept AP -1 but were D2 instead.

Honestly, I think that most of the profiles are pretty much fine as is. My biggest problem is that everything is just too damn expensive for what it gets you. Terminator weapons should not cost more, because Terminators aren't relentless. And, given how AP works now, Terminators should have become CHEAPER across the board, not more expensive. Hell, take the extra wound away if you want; anything that anyone is going to use to kill a terminator already has a D2 profile.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/09 18:38:57


Post by: Audustum


Your points are fair. One of the reasons I wanted to change the profiles off of Heavy is because of what you said: they aren't relentless so that -1 to shoot really hurts. Taking it off the Psilencers (in return for weakening long range effectiveness) seemed like a good trade.

Cost is a major problem too though I think Terminator Psilencers are O.K. at just 8 more than a Storm Bolter.

Every Relic we have except Liber (-1 leadership to Daemons) has a restriction on it that invalidates the GM-DK. Cuirass of Sacrifice is Infantry only, Soul Glaive is for replacing Halberds only, e.t.c.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/09 20:08:21


Post by: Elmir


Regarding those points:

1. Perhaps somethiing to consider, it wouldn't break the game.
2. sure. I'd never take them even if they were... The 8" range makes the weapons not good, even if they are asssault.
3. Disagree. Range implications. The -1 to hit is just something you have to live with.
4. I don't think it's nice that he only gets 1, but despite that, I think the entry itself doesn't need it. All the GMDK weapon load-outs bring something interesting.
5. Disagree. If you had said heavy 6 to bring them in line with assault cannons, I would have agreed though.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/09 20:11:26


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Audustum wrote:
Your points are fair. One of the reasons I wanted to change the profiles off of Heavy is because of what you said: they aren't relentless so that -1 to shoot really hurts. Taking it off the Psilencers (in return for weakening long range effectiveness) seemed like a good trade.

Cost is a major problem too though I think Terminator Psilencers are O.K. at just 8 more than a Storm Bolter.

Every Relic we have except Liber (-1 leadership to Daemons) has a restriction on it that invalidates the GM-DK. Cuirass of Sacrifice is Infantry only, Soul Glaive is for replacing Halberds only, e.t.c.

How many relics should really be available to something like a Dreadknight that would make sense?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/09 20:32:44


Post by: Audustum


The model is literally a Terminator in a baby-carrier. No reason the Terminator can't be wearing the Cuirass of Sacrifice (FnP relic) as an example. There's also a Daemon hammer relic. No real reason we can't say it has a variable size and can replace a great hammer or a regular hammer


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/09 21:22:58


Post by: Kahor


So I'm trying to think of some interesting combinations with the new codex that could be fun to play (I don't really play competitively).

A land raider containing 2 squads of purifiers could be fun when paired with gate. I was thinking I could pair it with a stormraven that has a dreadnought and/or more purifiers in it that can fly over first turn.

The land raider could be gated by almost anything on the back line where you could also have a tri-las pred (assuming we still get this in the codex). The psyker could then cast the power on the pred that allows it to fire without requiring line of sight.

Thinking about it you could put a GM or Draigo at the backline with multiple tri-las preds. He could grant one the line of sight power and will give all the preds the reroll aura (I think). Its not as good as Big G but... what do you guys think? Just throwing out some thoughts.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/09 21:29:42


Post by: Bigfashizzel


The biggest issue for me right now is the scarcity of command points. Even at 2k its hard to manage more than 1 command point per turn.

It feels like every game is going to hinge on a single battle round, which I guess is cool?






8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/09 21:54:57


Post by: Quickjager


Kahor wrote:
So I'm trying to think of some interesting combinations with the new codex that could be fun to play (I don't really play competitively).

A land raider containing 2 squads of purifiers could be fun when paired with gate. I was thinking I could pair it with a stormraven that has a dreadnought and/or more purifiers in it that can fly over first turn.

The land raider could be gated by almost anything on the back line where you could also have a tri-las pred (assuming we still get this in the codex). The psyker could then cast the power on the pred that allows it to fire without requiring line of sight.

Thinking about it you could put a GM or Draigo at the backline with multiple tri-las preds. He could grant one the line of sight power and will give all the preds the reroll aura (I think). Its not as good as Big G but... what do you guys think? Just throwing out some thoughts.


We don't have predator access.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/09 22:16:38


Post by: Kahor


 Quickjager wrote:
Kahor wrote:
So I'm trying to think of some interesting combinations with the new codex that could be fun to play (I don't really play competitively).

A land raider containing 2 squads of purifiers could be fun when paired with gate. I was thinking I could pair it with a stormraven that has a dreadnought and/or more purifiers in it that can fly over first turn.

The land raider could be gated by almost anything on the back line where you could also have a tri-las pred (assuming we still get this in the codex). The psyker could then cast the power on the pred that allows it to fire without requiring line of sight.

Thinking about it you could put a GM or Draigo at the backline with multiple tri-las preds. He could grant one the line of sight power and will give all the preds the reroll aura (I think). Its not as good as Big G but... what do you guys think? Just throwing out some thoughts.


We don't have predator access.


Wow really? That feels so silly. Can we not use it from the marine codex and put our chapter keyword in there? (I've only got the indexes at the moment).

[edit]

I suppose an alternative would be to do the Land Raider gate play with the storm raven. Then drop Draigo between them via deep strike.
You can keep the librarian (or whatever cast gate) at the backline with a single twin lascannon razorback to do some long range damage without line of sight.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/09 22:23:24


Post by: Quickjager


Nope, if you look in the Intro to the GK section of the Index, it lists the units we may take from the SM section.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/09 22:53:45


Post by: Kahor


 Quickjager wrote:
Nope, if you look in the Intro to the GK section of the Index, it lists the units we may take from the SM section.


Ah shoot, quite right. Well... that sucks


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/10 02:33:33


Post by: Coyote81


Bigfashizzel wrote:
The biggest issue for me right now is the scarcity of command points. Even at 2k its hard to manage more than 1 command point per turn.

It feels like every game is going to hinge on a single battle round, which I guess is cool?


This is why I'm going to play like my old daemon hunters and bring IG for battlefield presence and CPs.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/10 15:16:48


Post by: HeavenLord


Weel, Chapter approved just destroyed us with Objectives secured for every troops and with the new turn 1 rule...


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/10 16:12:05


Post by: Xenomancers


GK don't win based on objectives - they win on annihilation or are annihilated - that how melee alpha strike armies work.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/10 16:28:34


Post by: HeavenLord


Ok but Having now 40% chance to loose the turn 1 (without taknig in account the steal of inititative + rerrol) is pretty bad for us...


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/10 16:35:48


Post by: daedalus


HeavenLord wrote:
Ok but Having now 40% chance to loose the turn 1 (without taknig in account the steal of inititative + rerrol) is pretty bad for us...


Even that much more reason to MSU GKSS I suppose.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/10 16:41:47


Post by: HeavenLord


What do you think about this list (in a semi-competitive environment)?



Bataillon detachment:

HQ:

Kaldor Draigo

Grandmaster in nemesis Dreadknight (psilencer/psycanon/sword) (warlord trait: reroll charges )


Troops:

10 Strike quad (10 falchions) Combat squad if i have less drops than my ooponent

10 strike squad (10 falchions) Combat squad if i have less drops than my ooponent

5 Strike squad (psilencer / 4 falchions)


Vanguard detachment


HQ:

Brother Captain (relic: Soul glaive)

Elites:

5 Purifier squad (4 falchions / Hammer)

5 Purifier squad (4 falchions / Hammer)

1 venerable Dreadnought (Multi melta / CCW)

Flyer:

Stormraven (TAC / TMM / SSL / THB)


Total: 2000 pts and 7 CP

All the Vanguard detachment in the stormraven and the rest in deepstrike.

Thanks guys !


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/10 18:20:55


Post by: Xenomancers


HeavenLord wrote:
What do you think about this list (in a semi-competitive environment)?



Bataillon detachment:

HQ:

Kaldor Draigo

Grandmaster in nemesis Dreadknight (psilencer/psycanon/sword) (warlord trait: reroll charges )


Troops:

10 Strike quad (10 falchions) Combat squad if i have less drops than my ooponent

10 strike squad (10 falchions) Combat squad if i have less drops than my ooponent

5 Strike squad (psilencer / 4 falchions)


Vanguard detachment


HQ:

Brother Captain (relic: Soul glaive)

Elites:

5 Purifier squad (4 falchions / Hammer)

5 Purifier squad (4 falchions / Hammer)

1 venerable Dreadnought (Multi melta / CCW)

Flyer:

Stormraven (TAC / TMM / SSL / THB)


Total: 2000 pts and 7 CP

All the Vanguard detachment in the stormraven and the rest in deepstrike.

Thanks guys !
This looks like an excellent semi competitive list. A little variety - still very strong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
HeavenLord wrote:
Ok but Having now 40% chance to loose the turn 1 (without taknig in account the steal of inititative + rerrol) is pretty bad for us...

Can you explain?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/10 18:35:18


Post by: HeavenLord


Thanks !

With the new rule to know who will have the turn 1, both players roll a dice. And the layer who has deployed all his units first will have a +1 on the roll.

Do you have an example of a very GK competitive list ? Are Razrbacks, Paladins, Stormravens mandatory for going cheese ?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/10 18:48:44


Post by: Bigfashizzel


You still can only Deepstrike the same number of units as you're putting on the board. Embarking in a transport doesn't count, since they're all placed as one.

That means you'd have 6 drops (3 strike squads, Draigo, Dreadknight, and the Stormraven). So you could deep strike 3 Units.

You'd have to leave some heavy dudes on the table, since if the only unit you have on the table is the flier you instantly lose.

So lets imagine that you have the StormRaven, Draigo, and the GM DK on the table. Your opponent has 2000 points with which to kill two special characters to win the game. I guess you can get the GM DK to a 2++ if you go first, or a 3++ if you use Heed the Prognosticators. Draigo can get to 2++ with the same Strategem.

That seems reasonable. I'm not sure how many wounds Draigo or the GM DK has, but they'd certainly take a lot of shooting to kill.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/10 19:37:17


Post by: HeavenLord


I am not sure to understand you.
Regarding the rules, my units inside transports are in the battlefield so I can have 5 deep striking units.

Also, I do not instantly lose if I have only my flyer because I still have my turn to deep strike my 5 units.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/10 19:58:23


Post by: Fueli


Bigfashizzel wrote:
You still can only Deepstrike the same number of units as you're putting on the board. Embarking in a transport doesn't count, since they're all placed as one.

That means you'd have 6 drops (3 strike squads, Draigo, Dreadknight, and the Stormraven). So you could deep strike 3 Units.

You'd have to leave some heavy dudes on the table, since if the only unit you have on the table is the flier you instantly lose.

So lets imagine that you have the StormRaven, Draigo, and the GM DK on the table. Your opponent has 2000 points with which to kill two special characters to win the game. I guess you can get the GM DK to a 2++ if you go first, or a 3++ if you use Heed the Prognosticators. Draigo can get to 2++ with the same Strategem.

That seems reasonable. I'm not sure how many wounds Draigo or the GM DK has, but they'd certainly take a lot of shooting to kill.


All units on table count, in transport or not. And the flyer penalty only comes in on turn two when he has his reserves on board too.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/10 20:04:53


Post by: Bigfashizzel


Thank you both, I've been playing the deep strike rules wrong since the edition dropped. That makes this edition much more comfortable.

That makes the list a lot better!

Running a Captain with purifiers is great.

Looks good.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/10 21:21:20


Post by: Godeskian


The turn one change does not affect the missions I'm the core rulebook. As per the posted 40k community article.

'' If you prefer the original method though, worry not! These new missions do not replace the matched play missions in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, they supplement them, allowing you to choose the style of mission rules you enjoy playing the most.''


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/10 22:09:14


Post by: MaxT


Godeskian wrote:
The turn one change does not affect the missions I'm the core rulebook. As per the posted 40k community article.

'' If you prefer the original method though, worry not! These new missions do not replace the matched play missions in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, they supplement them, allowing you to choose the style of mission rules you enjoy playing the most.''


No, but expect opponents to want to play it that way. And all tournies will.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/10 23:47:15


Post by: jcd386


 Fueli wrote:
Bigfashizzel wrote:
You still can only Deepstrike the same number of units as you're putting on the board. Embarking in a transport doesn't count, since they're all placed as one.

That means you'd have 6 drops (3 strike squads, Draigo, Dreadknight, and the Stormraven). So you could deep strike 3 Units.

You'd have to leave some heavy dudes on the table, since if the only unit you have on the table is the flier you instantly lose.

So lets imagine that you have the StormRaven, Draigo, and the GM DK on the table. Your opponent has 2000 points with which to kill two special characters to win the game. I guess you can get the GM DK to a 2++ if you go first, or a 3++ if you use Heed the Prognosticators. Draigo can get to 2++ with the same Strategem.

That seems reasonable. I'm not sure how many wounds Draigo or the GM DK has, but they'd certainly take a lot of shooting to kill.


All units on table count, in transport or not. And the flyer penalty only comes in on turn two when he has his reserves on board too.


I'm pretty sure units that are in transports are not on the table.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/11 00:06:39


Post by: L0adedDice


Wow, I can't believe the librarians get rites of banishment.
Really feels like I just wasted $100 and two days converting up the 3 I just bought...

I was trying to be rather positive about the codex until hearing that.

Hopefully when I get it in my hands tomorrow I'll see you were lying and librarians are still playable


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/11 00:15:06


Post by: Spartacus


Shame you got 3. My one libby will be casting Purge Soul and Vortex of Doom every turn anyway, I think he will do just fine.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/11 01:55:22


Post by: Quickjager


Has anyone seen a reason to include an Stormhawk over a Stormraven in their list? For about a 100 point difference you get a more survivable, accurate, transport gunship.

I just don't see it, what role it fulfills....


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/11 10:47:54


Post by: L0adedDice


What are peoples thoughts in support battalions.to increase our command points..

You can get a budget 3 command points for 180pts support battalion over 32 guardsmen.

I'm also considering adding 3 small scout units and two space marine librarians for some full strength smite and the battalions worth of command points.


Anyone else with ideas?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/11 16:49:46


Post by: jeffersonian000


 Quickjager wrote:
Has anyone seen a reason to include an Stormhawk over a Stormraven in their list? For about a 100 point difference you get a more survivable, accurate, transport gunship.

I just don't see it, what role it fulfills....

You already stated the difference, about 100 points. That's pretty much a no brainer.

SJ


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/11 22:14:00


Post by: Spartacus


I have the codex in hand:

Confirmation that all points prices are the same as the index, aside from Terminators up 2 points.

GM DK is indeed 190 points base.

Chaplain is 144 plus storm bolter. Crozius arcanum is free.

Also, for some reason the Twin Heavy Plasma cannon on the Stormraven has nearly doubled in price. Meh.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/11 22:14:41


Post by: jcd386


L0adedDice wrote:
What are peoples thoughts in support battalions.to increase our command points..

You can get a budget 3 command points for 180pts support battalion over 32 guardsmen.

I'm also considering adding 3 small scout units and two space marine librarians for some full strength smite and the battalions worth of command points.


Anyone else with ideas?


I think it is definitely a valid option, though you get some hate from the purists.

I think IG would work particularly well in a list that is trying to deepstrike the GK units on the first turn, and SM would work well in a more on the table kind of list.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/11 23:54:23


Post by: L0adedDice


jcd386 wrote:
L0adedDice wrote:
What are peoples thoughts in support battalions.to increase our command points..

You can get a budget 3 command points for 180pts support battalion over 32 guardsmen.

I'm also considering adding 3 small scout units and two space marine librarians for some full strength smite and the battalions worth of command points.


Anyone else with ideas?


I think it is definitely a valid option, though you get some hate from the purists.

I think IG would work particularly well in a list that is trying to deepstrike the GK units on the first turn, and SM would work well in a more on the table kind of list.


Meh Purists, i want full strength Smite damn it!!

I'm also liking the idea of putting Might of Hero's on a Draigo or Voldus, as they're target friendly Adeptus Astartes Unit.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/12 07:44:13


Post by: creeping-deth87


Spartacus wrote:
I have the codex in hand:

Confirmation that all points prices are the same as the index, aside from Terminators up 2 points.

GM DK is indeed 190 points base.

Chaplain is 144 plus storm bolter. Crozius arcanum is free.

Also, for some reason the Twin Heavy Plasma cannon on the Stormraven has nearly doubled in price. Meh.


Are the points costs for the weapons the same as well? If so I will definitely pass on this book


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/12 15:19:25


Post by: gossipmeng


I think it is safe to say that a pure grey knight list will be difficult to make competitive and that a detachment of guard will be required - for both CP and holding rear objectives.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/12 16:47:31


Post by: Audustum


 creeping-deth87 wrote:
Spartacus wrote:
I have the codex in hand:

Confirmation that all points prices are the same as the index, aside from Terminators up 2 points.

GM DK is indeed 190 points base.

Chaplain is 144 plus storm bolter. Crozius arcanum is free.

Also, for some reason the Twin Heavy Plasma cannon on the Stormraven has nearly doubled in price. Meh.


Are the points costs for the weapons the same as well? If so I will definitely pass on this book


Yes, all points are the same except the extra 2PPM for Terminators. No loadout changes for anybody either except Librarians can no longer take Storm Shields (just like Codex Space Marines can't either now).


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/12 16:50:56


Post by: Elmir


++ Grey knight spearhead detachment ++

HQ:

GMDK : g. psilencer ,h. psycannon ,hammer , teleporter ,DF 290

Heavy:

NDK , dreadfist , Greatsword , H. Psycannon , teleporter 205
NDK , dreadfist , Greatsword , H. Incinerator, teleporter 215
5 Purgators , 1 stormbolter , halberd, 4 psilencers 113

++ Grey knight vanguard detachment ++

HQ:

Brothehood champion , stormbolter 115

Elites:

Brotherhood Ancient, storm bolter, falchion 130
5 Paladins, 3 falchions , 2 halberds 2 psilencers , 3 stormbolters 291
Apothecary, stormbolter, sword 92

Flyer:

Stormraven , T LC , T.M. Launcher , 2 SSM , H.bolters 322

++ Astra militarum Battalion ++

HQ:

Company commander 30
Company commander 30

Troops:

Infantry squad , autocannon 55
Infantry squad , autocannon 55
Infantry squad , autocannon 55



TOTAL: 1998

Idea for my current 2k list.

With the brotherhood champion/purgation squad riding in the stormraven, I should have 8 units on the board, with 6 units to drop in via deepstrike. Planning on First into the fray for GMDK as WL trait, relic = banner for ancient.

I have the option to also deepstrike the brotherhood champion for 1 CP in case the extra smite in the alpha strike is worth it.

Total CP: 8.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/12 20:10:03


Post by: Smotejob


So I just took this list against guard and not only won, I did very well. I went first. Field had good Los blocking.

This was my list

Dkgm with teleporter psycannon, psilencer sword (warlord) with reroll charges
Voldus

2x termies with falchions
1 strike with falchions

Doomglaive dread

2x purgation with psilencer
1x purgation with psycannon

3x razorback with assault cannon

Had a few points to spare.


His guard was diversified but still mean with a lot of deep strike plasma and conscripts walking up the field backed by artillery and scout walkers with flamers and 5 psykers. (Wanted his 9cp)

Things I like about new codex
1 first into fray got me a couple KEY charges I needed.
2. Psybolts on storm bolter freaking WRECK guard, both vehicles and infantry ...
3. Vortex of doom is good for hurting characters that are hugging their conscript blobs. On one turn I did 15 mortal wounds with a vortex of doom because he was too clumped up.
4. Voldus puts out about 6-7 mortal wounds a turn and still hits like a truck in combat.
5. The base size of the dkgm makes it easy to spread auras around.
6. Dkgm is very good, versatile and durable with a 3++ that reliably casts with +1
7. +1 to psychic dice was huge... Saved 3 casts from failing and allowed me to deny a lot too.
8. Opsec didn't matter too much... He was dying too fast and moving too slow. I held midfield and advanced well into his backfield early.
9. His artillery didn't do much harm... I still had a 4+ most of the time
10. Terminators did good work

I was very impressed with the new rule boosts and powers.

Also... Astral aim + psybolts is a really good combo.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/12 21:42:01


Post by: Spartacus


How exactly did you make use of psybolts during the game? I can see some niche use for them, but at 2 CP per shot they're so expensive, and they don't seem exactly optimal vs guardsmen or vehicles.

Cool that you dealt to IG, I'm gonna try and do the same thing later today.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/13 00:17:40


Post by: Smotejob


Taking them from a 5+to a 6+ or scions to 5+ makes a big difference.

That is a 33.3% chance for them to make a save to a 16.6%. I found it useful there. Doubling the failed saves.

Against t8 armor, we go from wounding on a 6+ to on a 5+ essentially doubling the wounds caused, and reducing those saves from 3+ to 4+.

Makes stormbolters way efficient and able to tackle multiple types of targets.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/13 00:27:06


Post by: Kahor


 Smotejob wrote:

Things I like about new codex
1 first into fray got me a couple KEY charges I needed.
2. Psybolts on storm bolter freaking WRECK guard, both vehicles and infantry ...
3. Vortex of doom is good for hurting characters that are hugging their conscript blobs. On one turn I did 15 mortal wounds with a vortex of doom because he was too clumped up.
4. Voldus puts out about 6-7 mortal wounds a turn and still hits like a truck in combat.
5. The base size of the dkgm makes it easy to spread auras around.
6. Dkgm is very good, versatile and durable with a 3++ that reliably casts with +1
7. +1 to psychic dice was huge... Saved 3 casts from failing and allowed me to deny a lot too.
8. Opsec didn't matter too much... He was dying too fast and moving too slow. I held midfield and advanced well into his backfield early.
9. His artillery didn't do much harm... I still had a 4+ most of the time
10. Terminators did good work

I was very impressed with the new rule boosts and powers.

Also... Astral aim + psybolts is a really good combo.


Would love some more detail on some of these if you get the chance.

How was Voldus putting out the mortal wounds? Was he casting Vortex every turn?
How were the psybolts used? I keep looking at both of the bolt stratagems but they do cost 2 CP which feels a lot.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/13 01:25:50


Post by: Smotejob


Voldus would Purge soul, vortex, and then smite/gate as needed.

2cp is a lot, but if feel it is worth it if you mass a lot of those weapons. So if you go all storm bolter making everything strength 5 rend -1 then 2 cp to sup up our alpha is not bad. If I were to truly use these competitively then I would go pure storm bolter.

V tac Marines - getting reroll to 1 to hit for near a gm (I will always be near one turn 1)... easy for us to put out 100 storm bolter shots (25 Marines)

with no psybolt... Rerolling 1s to hit is 78hits (77.777 so I'm rounding). Wounding on 4 is 39 wounds. 3+ save is 13 dead Marines.

With psybolts... 78 hits, wounding on 3 is 52 wounds, 4+ (because psybolts give -1) save is 26 dead Marines.

That's doubling the efficiency of our bolter if my math is right. (On my alpha I am always within 6" of the aura)

Against guards men...
W/o 78 hit, 52wound, save 5+ 35 dead guard.
W/ 78 hit, 52 wound, save 6+ 43 dead guard.

No as much efficiency gained but that is almost a whole conscript blob. Add in psychic powers and you are thru a guards front line and into their squishy.

Against tanks. T8 3+ save

W/o 78hit, wounding on 6 is 13wounds, 3+ save 4 unsaved
W/ 78hit, wounding on 5 is 26 wounds, 4+save is 13unsaved wounds.

325% more damage against a Russ.

T7 vehicles don't have the same gain...
Both will cause 26 wounds ... 8v 13 unsaved wounds.

So I think psybolts are worth. We can easily put out 100 bolter shots turn 1. And going from denting a leman Russ to wrecking a Russ is worth. . . Doubling dead Marines? Worth. But you need to know how the psybolts will affect your intended targets.

This is what I think is funny..Against T3 demons? They have no change in damage output because we still wound on 3 against 5+ invul saves. Our psybolts are better at killing humans than demons haha.

All being said...
This is just our shooting phase! Half our guys will be in close combat turn 1 as well thanks to the new warlord trait). And Our psychic phase does pack a whallop offensively with unsavable wounds for those elites.

We aren't to shabby right now. We can deal with elites, tanks, and hordes. I'm happy with how we play.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/13 02:26:32


Post by: Audustum


Wait, wait, wait, doesn't the Stratagem only effect a single unit? How are you getting 100 shots out of 1 unit?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/13 03:12:09


Post by: Smotejob


Audustum wrote:
Wait, wait, wait, doesn't the Stratagem only effect a single unit? How are you getting 100 shots out of 1 unit?


Whelp... I feel like a moron... I missed the only one unit. Ok I'm less impressed. Positive from this? That math still works for 40bolter shots for a squad for 10 strikes. Just adjust the numbers. Moral of the story? It does super up the efficiency against some targets and not at all against others. Know the target.

Other part to gleam? Reread the rule more than a few times I guess? Lysdexia is a pain.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/13 03:25:25


Post by: Kahor


 Smotejob wrote:
Audustum wrote:
Wait, wait, wait, doesn't the Stratagem only effect a single unit? How are you getting 100 shots out of 1 unit?


Whelp... I feel like a moron... I missed the only one unit. Ok I'm less impressed. Positive from this? That math still works for 40bolter shots for a squad for 10 strikes. Just adjust the numbers. Moral of the story? It does super up the efficiency against some targets and not at all against others. Know the target.

Other part to gleam? Reread the rule more than a few times I guess? Lysdexia is a pain.


If it did do it for the whole army for 1 turn I'd happily pay the 2CP! (maybe even 3 for the whole army). This is why I am unhappy with the costs as our units top out at 10 models but it's a 2CP cost. Either 1 CP cost or 20 model units would be better and the easiest change would be the CP.

I haven't played a game with the codex rules but I'm really looking forward to the psychic phase and having more flexibility.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/13 03:28:33


Post by: Quickjager


Seriously, sign me up if psybolts effected the whole army. lol.

Also go apologize to that IG player.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/13 11:07:10


Post by: w0nderland


What are people's feelings about the new pyschic powers from the codex?

Trying to work out what to take when.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/13 11:58:12


Post by: HeavenLord


Hi,

What do you think about my attempt to be competitive with the new codex ?

HQ

Kaldor Draigo

GrandMaster ine Dreadknight armor (gatling psilencer / Heavy Psycanon / Great Sword) Warlord: First of the fray

Troops

3 x 5 Strike Squad (Falchions)

Fast Attack

3 x 5 Interceptor Squad (Falchions)

Elite

3 x Paladins (Falchions)

Transports

3 x Razorbacks (Twin AC)

1 x Stormraven (SSM / TAC / TMM / 2 HB)



Interceptors in razorbacks. Kaldor, GrandMaster, Paladins and Strike suqad in deepstrike.


Thank you !


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/13 12:13:03


Post by: Audustum


 Smotejob wrote:
Audustum wrote:
Wait, wait, wait, doesn't the Stratagem only effect a single unit? How are you getting 100 shots out of 1 unit?


Whelp... I feel like a moron... I missed the only one unit. Ok I'm less impressed. Positive from this? That math still works for 40bolter shots for a squad for 10 strikes. Just adjust the numbers. Moral of the story? It does super up the efficiency against some targets and not at all against others. Know the target.

Other part to gleam? Reread the rule more than a few times I guess? Lysdexia is a pain.


Haha, don't worry about it. We all have *those* moments with the rules.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/13 12:35:23


Post by: Bigfashizzel


 Smotejob wrote:


Whelp... I feel like a moron... I missed the only one unit. Ok I'm less impressed. Positive from this? That math still works for 40bolter shots for a squad for 10 strikes. Just adjust the numbers. Moral of the story? It does super up the efficiency against some targets and not at all against others. Know the target.

Other part to gleam? Reread the rule more than a few times I guess? Lysdexia is a pain.



That is completely ridiculous. How many command points did you actually spend during the game? To cast in on your army would cost ~10-16cp per turn? What a mistake!


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/13 13:11:34


Post by: Smotejob


Audustum wrote:
 Smotejob wrote:
Audustum wrote:
Wait, wait, wait, doesn't the Stratagem only effect a single unit? How are you getting 100 shots out of 1 unit?


Whelp... I feel like a moron... I missed the only one unit. Ok I'm less impressed. Positive from this? That math still works for 40bolter shots for a squad for 10 strikes. Just adjust the numbers. Moral of the story? It does super up the efficiency against some targets and not at all against others. Know the target.

Other part to gleam? Reread the rule more than a few times I guess? Lysdexia is a pain.


Haha, don't worry about it. We all have *those* moments with the rules.


Since I did it based off of 100 they still work as percentages ... *Silver lining*


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/13 13:13:33


Post by: Audustum


 Smotejob wrote:
Audustum wrote:
 Smotejob wrote:
Audustum wrote:
Wait, wait, wait, doesn't the Stratagem only effect a single unit? How are you getting 100 shots out of 1 unit?


Whelp... I feel like a moron... I missed the only one unit. Ok I'm less impressed. Positive from this? That math still works for 40bolter shots for a squad for 10 strikes. Just adjust the numbers. Moral of the story? It does super up the efficiency against some targets and not at all against others. Know the target.

Other part to gleam? Reread the rule more than a few times I guess? Lysdexia is a pain.


Haha, don't worry about it. We all have *those* moments with the rules.


Since I did it based off of 100 they still work as percentages ... *Silver lining*


Yeah and it's definitely still strong. I like the Psy one on a Dreadknight too. s8 AP-2 2 damage actually doesn't seem half bad, though you only get 6 shots.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/13 13:27:31


Post by: Smotejob


Audustum wrote:
 Smotejob wrote:
Audustum wrote:
 Smotejob wrote:
Audustum wrote:
Wait, wait, wait, doesn't the Stratagem only effect a single unit? How are you getting 100 shots out of 1 unit?


Whelp... I feel like a moron... I missed the only one unit. Ok I'm less impressed. Positive from this? That math still works for 40bolter shots for a squad for 10 strikes. Just adjust the numbers. Moral of the story? It does super up the efficiency against some targets and not at all against others. Know the target.

Other part to gleam? Reread the rule more than a few times I guess? Lysdexia is a pain.


Haha, don't worry about it. We all have *those* moments with the rules.


Since I did it based off of 100 they still work as percentages ... *Silver lining*


Yeah and it's definitely still strong. I like the Psy one on a Dreadknight too. s8 AP-2 2 damage actually doesn't seem half bad, though you only get 6 shots.


I could see it effective there. A dreadknight gm toting a psilencer and psycannon can put out hurt with it. Psilencer follow the math above.

But we are talking a couple more unsaved wounds against t8 3+ saves.. or a 2-3 more Marines.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/13 14:41:06


Post by: Audustum


Put it on the DK-GM for 2+ BS and re-rolling 1's. Still not huge, but probably a nice punch if you've got the CP to burn (which we never will if pure so hahahahaha)


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/13 20:39:48


Post by: Spartacus


Played a doubles game yesterday, GK and Ultramarines vs Guard and 1k Sons + Magnus. We lost due to some horrendous luck and me forgetting 1 or 2 rules, but it was a good game. Some takeaways:

GM DK is a beast as everyone expected. Couple of turns worth of 2+ invuln save meant he should've had free reign through the enemy ranks (save for the terrible luck and forgetting rules part)

Several Stratagems are also highly effective, worth shelling out for the battalion. I used True Silver armour, and Heed the Prognosticars mostly.

+1 to psy tests is sweet - for the first time in 18 month of fighting my friends 1k sons I was able to match them in the psychic phase.

Vortex of doom worked a treat against MSU Guard formations. I only cast it once before my Libby died but it fried about 100 points worth of stuff in one fell swoop.

I took several Psilencers on PAGK for the first time since 8th dropped, I am impressed and will be taking more. Adds so much to a Strike Squad for just 2 points.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/14 17:13:38


Post by: Xenomancers


Umm - I was also under the impression it affected the whole army...what a freaking busted stratagem. 2 command points to do what? kill 2 models? Give me a break. At least I know what I going to be spending command points on now. Giving out +invo saves and rolling 3d6 for vortex of doom. Best part about it is it lowers the demand for command points. Should be okay with just 1 batallion and an outrider or vangaurd now.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/14 18:50:39


Post by: Noctem


Hey all! Friend is starting to play Warhammer and I'd like to get peoples feedback on exactly how to build the models and what sort of list he should run. These are the following models we bought:

Kaldor Draigo
Voldus
Dreadknight (Used as GMDK)
Paladins box (x5 models)
Strike Squad (2 10x model boxes)

What should he equip the Paladins with, and what units should he build out of the 4 x5 "Strike Squad" sprues? He probably won't be buying anymore models for a while.

Thanks for the help!!!


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/14 18:59:15


Post by: Audustum


I'd say run that as a Battallion Detachment since that'll give you 3 HQ slots.

So you might want to look into learning how to magnetize. Then you can change your loadouts as the rules and meta change. Otherwise, equip them as you think is cool.

If you were trying to optimize them in the current neta, I would give all the Strikes Falchion's and 4 of them Psilencers.

The Paladin box can actually be built as Paladins or Terminators. Paladins are probably the better choice since you meet troop requirements with the Strikes anyway. In a Paladin unit take 4 Falchions and 1 Hammer. The Hammer goes on the Paragon. Give two of them, but probably not the Paragon, Psilencers.

Alternatively, you can run a squad of 3-4 Paladins and build one of the model as an Apothecary. In this case you o ly get 1 Psilencer.

On the Dreadknight, Psilencer + Psycannon should be optimal. Not sure what people prefer between hammer and greatsword in general but the greatsword serves me well personally.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/14 20:21:06


Post by: Noctem


So he should assemble the 20 Strike's as Strikes for troops? I guess troops did get a buff with ObSec. Or 3x 5 Strikes and maybe an Interceptor?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/14 20:28:29


Post by: Smotejob


Noctem wrote:
So he should assemble the 20 Strike's as Strikes for troops? I guess troops did get a buff with ObSec. Or 3x 5 Strikes and maybe an Interceptor?


I like this idea. I really like my interceptors, and they allow me to have some units on the table at the beginning of the game. They are so mobile too! They do good work. Right now both strikes and interceptors are showing me the best results when equipped with falchions. There is math hammer earlier in this thread to support taking these.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/14 20:35:54


Post by: Noctem


Ok so he should definitely keep 3 units of 5 Strikes with 3 psilencers and Falchions for Battalion and ObSec, and build 1 unit of Interceptors with Falchions. Then GMDK with psilencer, psycannon, and sword. Then I think 5 Paladins with 4 Falchions, 1 Hammer, and 2 Psilencers. That sounds like a good build? He will be playing casually but wanting good units, nothing too competitive.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/14 20:40:20


Post by: jcd386


It's also not hard to magnetize the backpacks to switch between strikes and interceptors. It's worth the extra work imo to have to buy less models.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/14 20:42:09


Post by: Noctem


Hmm that's true! Since they will both be using Falchions and the same other bits right?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/14 21:28:48


Post by: Audustum


Right. They're identical in terms of gear except for backpacks. 1 squad can make some good Interceptors.

Keep the other 3 squads as Strikes for a battalion. Terminators are 46PPM so fairly hard to justify nowadays.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/14 22:23:55


Post by: Elmir


So, got the first game in after the codex this saturday... Played a 1500p game against a necron player running infantry phalanx with stalker, annihilation barge and spider.

I ran a GK battalion with 1 SS and 2 termie squads, GMDK with first into the fray and voldus. Alongside was a AM detachment: 3 infantry squads with autocannons, 2 company commanders and a leman russ demolisher.

9 command points, coupled with lots of deepstrikes was fun. GMDK was virtually unstoppable after 2 rounds of 2++.

Terminators were very underwhelming. Strikes are a lot more efficient. Voldus did manage to kick out a lot of mortal wounds and was no slouch in CC either...

Overall, I liked the combo with AM. They complement the aggressive playstyle of Gks well and provide decent (and cheap) backline units.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/15 00:54:46


Post by: Noctem


Is putting falchion and psilencer on one Paladin legal?

5 Paladins, 4 Falchions, 1 Hammer, 2 Psilencers is ok?

Also, does the box only come with 1 Psilencer?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/15 02:09:31


Post by: Sinji


Noctem wrote:
Is putting falchion and psilencer on one Paladin legal?

5 Paladins, 4 Falchions, 1 Hammer, 2 Psilencers is ok?

Also, does the box only come with 1 Psilencer?


You need to take 5 guys in order to take a 2 special weapons and 10 guys to take 4. Less than 5 and you can take 0 special weapons.

Box comes with 1 Incinerator, 1 Psilencer and 2 Psycannons.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/15 02:24:04


Post by: Audustum


 Sinji wrote:
Noctem wrote:
Is putting falchion and psilencer on one Paladin legal?

5 Paladins, 4 Falchions, 1 Hammer, 2 Psilencers is ok?

Also, does the box only come with 1 Psilencer?


You need to take 5 guys in order to take a 2 special weapons and 10 guys to take 4. Less than 5 and you can take 0 special weapons.

Box comes with 1 Incinerator, 1 Psilencer and 2 Psycannons.


This is basically it. The Incinerator and Psilencer actually use a lot of bits in common though and I found it pretty easy (even as a novice converter) to make 2 Psilencers for my Paladins. So much so that, at first, I didn't even realize I was converting an Incinerator.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/15 05:57:22


Post by: Noctem


Ah ok! I understand the limits on how many special weapons they can take, but would the 2 guys with Psilencers still have Falchions? I see people listing 5 Paladins, 4 with Falchions, 1 with Hammer, and 2 with Psilencers.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/15 06:47:50


Post by: L0adedDice


Played my first game with the new Codex. (and with Grey knights full stop)

I was pretty impressed with how the alpha worked.
I Played a 1,500pt battalion with Draigo, 3 units of SS, 3 units of Interecptors (deployed in Lazorbacks)
and had a Brother captain as my warlord for the first to the fray warlord trait.

I was playing vs a Dark eldar player, and even with LOS blocking terrain, it was hard for him to stop deep strike angles, and i was able to pop down, and remove 2 transports and have Draigo with a 2++ tied up in combat.

The return fire of heaps of blasters did kill ALL of my 3 strike squads that deep striked into his lines.
Although the following turn all 3 Interceptor units shunted accross the board and let the rapid fire 2 Storm bolters do their work.

The smites added up.
Draigo with a 2++ is annoying as hell for your opponent if they can't mortal wound a HQ.
Purge soul was more useful than expected, and can at worst make your opponent burn CMD points to re-roll.
Interceptors as a secondary alpha was strong.


I look forward to more games with them, as there are quite a few builds i was to play.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/15 07:28:41


Post by: Spartacus


^^

Interesting use of the Interceptors not straight in turn one with the rest. Every time I bring them its because they can shunt in along side the deepstrikers.

Were you waiting for more targets to charge or something?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/15 12:57:57


Post by: L0adedDice


Spartacus wrote:
^^

Interesting use of the Interceptors not straight in turn one with the rest. Every time I bring them its because they can shunt in along side the deepstrikers.

Were you waiting for more targets to charge or something?

Well he also had a couple of units in deep strike.
I wanted to keep my Interceptors (Is there an acronym for them yet..?) safe in there Razorbacks,
so they would be able to shunt and rapid fire them once they hit the table.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/15 13:24:13


Post by: Homeskillet


Hey all, I just got my first game in with the new Codex. I also tested out the DKGM, giving him a Psycannon, Psilencer, Sword, and teleporter, and of course First to the Fray. I also took 2 10-man bricks of Strikers, a Doomglaive, two Purgation squads (1 psi one psy), and two Assault Cannon razorbacks. I brought an Apothecary to keep the GM up and running, since I knew he was going to be a fire magnet. I used an Ancient, and tested out the Chaplain as well, giving him the Fury of Deimos. I was playing against a Black Templar list with lots of Primaris, bikers, a few Predators, and a Sicaran.

I went heavy with an Alpha strike, dropping the DKGM, Strikers, Ancient, Chaplain, and Apothecary on a flank. I then Gated the Doomglaive to within range of the GM as well. I have to say, 40 Stormbolter shots per Strike squad re-rolling 1s puts out some hurt. i failed almost all of my charges, despite the re-roll, which was incredibly disappointing. On the upside, I got countercharged the following turn, but the GK took it on the chin and beat down the Templars. His Chapter master with a Hammer came in and tried to take out the GM, but I made 2 out of 3 invul saves, and command pointed to re-roll and pass my 3rd. The GM splatted his biker Chapter Master easily. I interrupted his bikers with Power Lances who charged my Strike Squad with Falchions (who had Hammerhand up) and my Strikers absolutely annihilated the bikers. Psilencers are incredibly effective for the points cost. I ended up shooting them at tanks often enough, and they still did work. The Doomglaive was great, his shooting was what you'd expect and the Doomglaive wrecked face in close combat. The Apothecary did his job, being a healbot for the GM, who was taking Predator and Sicaran fire, as expected. He was particularly useful as I either failed or got Sanctuary denied much of the time. Very happy with the new Codex.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/15 13:26:34


Post by: Xenomancers


First game - easy mistake to make - but the DKGM can't be healed by an apothecary - you need a tech marine for this .


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/15 14:00:43


Post by: Homeskillet


 Xenomancers wrote:
First game - easy mistake to make - but the DKGM can't be healed by an apothecary - you need a tech marine for this .


I needed a mechanic but took a medic? Rookie mistake.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/15 15:03:50


Post by: Audustum


Noctem wrote:
Ah ok! I understand the limits on how many special weapons they can take, but would the 2 guys with Psilencers still have Falchions? I see people listing 5 Paladins, 4 with Falchions, 1 with Hammer, and 2 with Psilencers.


Unlike Powered Armor Marines, like Strikes and Interceptors, Terminator Armored Marines do not lose their melee weapon or close combat capability to equip a heavy weapon. Benefit of the armor.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/15 15:51:57


Post by: Xenomancers


 Homeskillet wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
First game - easy mistake to make - but the DKGM can't be healed by an apothecary - you need a tech marine for this .


I needed a mechanic but took a medic? Rookie mistake.

Haha yeah. It works out though because if this is what you want to do - a tech marine can't fail at a repair (d3 auto repair) - apoth fails on a 1-3. Tech marine is also an HQ - so that can help with your list building. GK tech marines are also psyker (whatever that is worth). I've been tempted to take one but as you guessed - they are pricey.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/15 17:28:40


Post by: Gest


 Xenomancers wrote:

Haha yeah. It works out though because if this is what you want to do - a tech marine can't fail at a repair (d3 auto repair) - apoth fails on a 1-3.



That is not correct. Both just heal 1-3 wounds guaranteed.
The Apoth only has to roll a die when he tries to revive a Model. (which he can't do with characters anyway, so that point is moot)

The normal "healing" is for both the same, just name a target and heal d3 wounds, with the limitation of vehicle/infantry.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/15 17:29:41


Post by: Xenomancers


Gest wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

Haha yeah. It works out though because if this is what you want to do - a tech marine can't fail at a repair (d3 auto repair) - apoth fails on a 1-3.



That is not correct. Both just heal 1-3 wounds guaranteed.
The Apoth only has to roll a die when he tries to revive a Model. (which he can't do with characters anyway, so that point is moot)

The normale "healing" is for both the same, just name a target and heal d3 wounds, with the limitation of vehicle/infantry.

I stand corrected.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/16 07:00:16


Post by: HeavenLord


Hi ! What do you think about my WAAC pure GK list ?

Bataillon Detachment

HQ:
GMNDK psilencer, psycanon, sword, warlord first of the fray
Kaldor Draigo

Troops
2 x 5 Strike Squad (falchions, psilencer)
1 x 5 Strike Squad (falchions)

Elites:

1x 5 Purifier Squad (falchions, Hammer)
In a Stormraven (MM, TAC, SSM, 2 HB

1x 5 Purifier Squad (falchions, Hammer)
In a Stormraven (MM, TAC, SSM, 2 HB


Fast attack:

1x5 Interceptor Squad (falchions)
In a Razorback Twin Assault canon


C&c appreciated, thank you !


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/16 17:01:37


Post by: Marmatag


Psilencers + psybolt ammunition 2cp = strength 5, ap-1 d3 damage shots en-masse. With rerolls and astral aim, they absolutely wreck shop. Wraithguards in cover? No problem. Did this in a playtest with a friend.... it was brutal.

Anyone have a good idea for helmet color schemes?

I've been painting all my power armor grey knights with white helmets.

I use blue glaze for the eyes, and do a very light shade on the recesses with nuln oil. I believe the white is ulthuan grey but i'd have to check.

I'm thinking of doing something different for the rest. But, i'm not sure.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/16 17:04:32


Post by: Audustum


I think white helmets on power armor is supposed to be the mark of the Purifiers.

One fun thing I do is paint each squad's Force weapons a different color. Makes them thematic like Jedi lightsabers.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/17 17:07:08


Post by: Smotejob


 Marmatag wrote:
Psilencers + psybolt ammunition 2cp = strength 5, ap-1 d3 damage shots en-masse. With rerolls and astral aim, they absolutely wreck shop. Wraithguards in cover? No problem. Did this in a playtest with a friend.... it was brutal.

Anyone have a good idea for helmet color schemes?

I've been painting all my power armor grey knights with white helmets.

I use blue glaze for the eyes, and do a very light shade on the recesses with nuln oil. I believe the white is ulthuan grey but i'd have to check.

I'm thinking of doing something different for the rest. But, i'm not sure.


I find this most effective when a. En masse, and b. Against toughness 4,5, and 8 models where you are changing up that wound roll.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/17 18:50:24


Post by: Homeskillet


I just played a game tweaking my previous list:

1- DKGM: psycannon, sword, teleporter
1- Techmarine
10- Strikers
10- Strikers
5- Strikers
1- Doomglaive Dread
1- Heavy Plasma Cannon Dread
2- Vindicares
1- Paladin Ancient
2- Purgation squads: 4 Psilencers
2- Assault Cannon Razorbacks

I deep struck the GM, 2 big Striker squads, Ancient, and paid a CP to put the Techmarine on the Teleportarium, I concealed the Vindicares to get the best firing angles on my turn. Purgators in the Razorbacks. I got seized on, but with half my stuff off the board, I weathered it quite well against Admech (he had spread his stuff out a bit too much where he couldn't get all his guns to bear on what I had down). Great alpha strike, with Smite and Vortex of Doom getting a ton of work done. Vortex loves castled up opponents! Once again though, I failed all my charges, despite re-rolls for everyone. I think it has to be my luck. I popped the Purgators out next to the Plasma Dread, and used Wisdom of the Ancients to give them re-roll 1s. They deleted an infantry unit and put some wounds on a tank. The Techmarine combined with Sanctuary is a good way to keep the GM up and running at full capacity. The Fury of Deimos is a fantastic Relic, it gets work done! I was in his lines turn 2 with all my close combat, and it was all downhill for him once that happened.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/18 05:56:12


Post by: Thor0298


I'm new to grey knights and looking to pick up my first models. What do you need to make a grand master for the dreadknight. I'm assuming people aren't using voldus. Any army building tips? I really want a dreadknight. Possibly two so I could run a regular and a grand master. I was thinking draigo and voldus. Need to finish going through the codex but those were just the models that I really like


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/18 06:49:43


Post by: Spartacus


There is no special thing you need to make the grandmaster in your dreadknight, in fact the 'Grandmaster' on foot model they use is actually just an old GK metal terminator model from when they came in blister packs of 1 each.

To differentiate him from regular rank and file dreadknights, I would add an Iron Halo above his head somewhere, and some extra decorations and adornments, plus plenty of gold things!


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/18 07:19:54


Post by: Quickjager


This weeks mission is incredibly good for GK. Gate and Interceptors.

Run a 10 man Paladin squad, literally no downside.

Have 4 squads of Interceptors plopping down last turn after suiciding charging them for 4 turns. If this doesn't end up in a table for an attacking GK player, you just weren't being aggressive enough.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/18 07:27:47


Post by: alanmckenzie


So, this seems like the best place to ask….

I’m a Blood Angel player, but I’ve always had a soft spot for Grey Knight Terminators…. I think they’re amongst the coolest units in 40k.

So, I’ve just bought Voldus and a box of Terminators as a little treat to run alongside my Blood Angels.

My question, how do you reckon I should build the Terminators?

They’ll be rolling with Voldus obviously. Most likely teleporting in (although I haven’t ruled out a Land Raider purchase yet)

What’s the preferred load out for the squad? Hammers, yay or nay? A mix of Falchions and Halberds? And how’d you like your special weapon?

Reading the Index, I’m leaning towards 2 with Falchions, 2 with Hammers and 1 special weapon?(Halberds do look cool though)

Do I make them Paladins rather than regular Terminators? (seems expensive)

Any thoughts would be appreciated.




8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/18 08:02:34


Post by: Quickjager


Terminators are wayyyyy overcosted. Paladins are good.

Paladins take literally double the shots of overcharged plasma to kill, for about a 20% price increase. Downside? They become point pinatas against lascannons, melta, or battle-cannons. But no one runs enough lascannons really, melta is on pretty immobile short ranged units, and battle-cannons are so bad people don't use them.

Paladins are always better. EXCEPT in very fringe cases.

Falchions have been mathhammered to be the best, but take a hammer on your Paladin squad leader, because he has a 2+ that becomes a 3+ to hit. More value that way.

Special weapons are your call, I think most people here agree take special weapons on power armor, not TEQ.



8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/18 10:32:18


Post by: Coyote81


 Quickjager wrote:
This weeks mission is incredibly good for GK. Gate and Interceptors.

Run a 10 man Paladin squad, literally no downside.

Have 4 squads of Interceptors plopping down last turn after suiciding charging them for 4 turns. If this doesn't end up in a table for an attacking GK player, you just weren't being aggressive enough.


The terminators may cost a bit much, but they come back on a 2+, just use a CP to teleport them in again. If those paladins fail their 4+ to come back after they get killed, what then?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/18 10:52:27


Post by: HeavenLord


 Quickjager wrote:


The terminators may cost a bit much, but they come back on a 2+, just use a CP to teleport them in again. If those paladins fail their 4+ to come back after they get killed, what then?




Could you explain it better please, are you talking about a stratagem ?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/18 11:50:52


Post by: RobHampster


Coyote81 wrote:
 Quickjager wrote:
This weeks mission is incredibly good for GK. Gate and Interceptors.

Run a 10 man Paladin squad, literally no downside.

Have 4 squads of Interceptors plopping down last turn after suiciding charging them for 4 turns. If this doesn't end up in a table for an attacking GK player, you just weren't being aggressive enough.


The terminators may cost a bit much, but they come back on a 2+, just use a CP to teleport them in again. If those paladins fail their 4+ to come back after they get killed, what then?


HeavenLord wrote:
 Quickjager wrote:


The terminators may cost a bit much, but they come back on a 2+, just use a CP to teleport them in again. If those paladins fail their 4+ to come back after they get killed, what then?




Could you explain it better please, are you talking about a stratagem ?



Yeah, I'm not sure what you are talking about either. Is this some kind of shenanigans with an apothecary?

I was playing a 1000pt game on Wednesday which included some Paladins. They were very tanky for infantry against an Imperial Guard tank list. I didn't realise I could also "bring them back"?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have a question. If I have a Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight and Draigo in an army, do I have to nominate Draigo as Warlord and use his warlord trait or can I nominate the GMDK and pick a different one?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/18 15:04:54


Post by: alanmckenzie


 Quickjager wrote:
Terminators are wayyyyy overcosted. Paladins are good.

Paladins take literally double the shots of overcharged plasma to kill, for about a 20% price increase. Downside? They become point pinatas against lascannons, melta, or battle-cannons. But no one runs enough lascannons really, melta is on pretty immobile short ranged units, and battle-cannons are so bad people don't use them.

Paladins are always better. EXCEPT in very fringe cases.

Falchions have been mathhammered to be the best, but take a hammer on your Paladin squad leader, because he has a 2+ that becomes a 3+ to hit. More value that way.

Special weapons are your call, I think most people here agree take special weapons on power armor, not TEQ.



Thanks for this reply. Some good info.

I don't suppose there's much stopping me from running them as either paladins or standard terminators depending on how many points I want to spend.

And looking at the sprues, there's nothing stopping me from magnetising the Apothecary and Battle Standard arms.

So, the hammer on the Paragon or Justicar (good shout).
2 dudes with falchions.
2 dudes with halberds (one with magnetised right arm who can become the ancient, one with magnetised left arm who can become the Apothecary).

Thanks again.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/18 15:15:45


Post by: Xenomancers


 alanmckenzie wrote:
 Quickjager wrote:
Terminators are wayyyyy overcosted. Paladins are good.

Paladins take literally double the shots of overcharged plasma to kill, for about a 20% price increase. Downside? They become point pinatas against lascannons, melta, or battle-cannons. But no one runs enough lascannons really, melta is on pretty immobile short ranged units, and battle-cannons are so bad people don't use them.

Paladins are always better. EXCEPT in very fringe cases.

Falchions have been mathhammered to be the best, but take a hammer on your Paladin squad leader, because he has a 2+ that becomes a 3+ to hit. More value that way.

Special weapons are your call, I think most people here agree take special weapons on power armor, not TEQ.



Thanks for this reply. Some good info.

I don't suppose there's much stopping me from running them as either paladins or standard terminators depending on how many points I want to spend.

And looking at the sprues, there's nothing stopping me from magnetising the Apothecary and Battle Standard arms.

So, the hammer on the Paragon or Justicar (good shout).
2 dudes with falchions.
2 dudes with halberds (one with magnetised right arm who can become the ancient, one with magnetised left arm who can become the Apothecary).

Thanks again.

I would almost always give paladins halberds. It lets them take on t8 things - which you really want them to be able to do.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/18 15:17:01


Post by: wuestenfux


Well, I think the new codex is the best codex ever.
It looks well-rounded for an elite army with NDK as HQ and access to Chaplins.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/18 16:11:30


Post by: Kaptain O


HeavenLord wrote:
Could you explain it better please, are you talking about a stratagem ?

He was replying to a post about using Paladins and Interceptors in this week's Fate of Konor mission because it uses the "Sustained Assault" rules. Since GK Terminators are Troops they come back on a 2+ instead of a 4+.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/18 21:01:00


Post by: wraith[cs]


So, some questions on how to deal with the Guilliman Brick that has been popping up recently with the Knights.

Figure well-balanced TAC list, in a multi-game event so can't skew for seeing Guilliman.

How do we deal with him? I played a game recently my opponent castled in a set of ruins with copious amounts of primaris marines with an apothecary, Gravis Captain, and Big Bobby G. I managed to drop Guilliman to 4 wounds with smites after deepstriking a DK, Terminators, and Chaplain, plus blowing the 2CP psybolt strategem for shooting from the terminators. Between that and the Fury of Deimos on the chaplain (my warlord, with First to the Fray)I figured I could ace him right then and there. While I did fail my charges with the DK and Chaplain the terminators made it in. I did no wounds to Guilliman while he killed all 5 terminators. He then went on to Kill the Chaplain and DK while being healed back up to full from the apothecary over the next few turns.

I picked apart the rest of the primaris army while grinding my own out. I got the Paladins + Paladin Ancient + Apothecary in against Guilliman with hammerhand and Sanctuary up and still lost all my paladins, apothecary, and ancient over two rounds of combat (1 hammer, 4 swords). Guilliman ended the game at full health.

So, how do we as an army deal with him? We don't have wide access to ranged heavy firepower in the volume needed to drop past his 3++ - so in my opinion we're forced to stack buffs and engage in melee. Did I stack correctly and just didn't get the dice needed, or is he really that hard? I figured 5 paladins with +1 attack and +1 to wound would be enough to hang enough D3 damage hits on him to drop him.

We also don't have a horde to tie him up with. And I feel that we can't be passive and try and range-game his army out when he castles up as we can't compete with the re-roll hits and wounds en masse.

So, yeah. Any tips on how to engage him and his possible castle?

as an aside, I ended up winning the game by 1vp with two models left on the field (LRC and Voldus). Maelstrom of War mission. I couldn't kill him so I ran around grabbing objectives.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/18 21:18:34


Post by: jcd386


I think you have to kill the things he's buffing, rather than focus on him, until you have the resources at hand to kill him in one turn. I wouldn't assault him at all until you think he's gonna die, and never assault him with more than one unit at a time as he will use 2CP to interrupt you and blow the second unit away.

GK actually have some of the better shooting weapons to kill him, as you really just need to force his saves with lots of shots, ideally with D2+. So psylencers are pretty good. Smite is also great.



8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/18 22:05:51


Post by: Marmatag


I see this Terminators are inferior to Paladins stuff quite a bit. Mathematically, it's true, but, that assumes no bounded conditions.

You have 2000 points to spend, and neither Paladins nor Terminators are considered must-take. With that said, you have a very limited amount of workable points where you could fit either of these in.

With the new stratagems, a battalion is a smart decision.

So when you factor in:
(a) You absolutely have to have the "must includes" in your army.
(b) You only have 2000 total points to spend
(c) You need to bring 3 troops
(d) Terminators have objective secured

Terminators are more usable than Paladins.

In a straight up comparison with no boundary conditions, Paladins are greater than Terminators. But when you're building a list, fitting in Paladins in a meaningful way is incredibly costly.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/18 22:33:57


Post by: DarthDiggler


[quote=wraith[cs] 727042 9560530 null]So, some questions on how to deal with the Guilliman Brick that has been popping up recently with the Knights.

Figure well-balanced TAC list, in a multi-game event so can't skew for seeing Guilliman.

How do we deal with him? I played a game recently my opponent castled in a set of ruins with copious amounts of primaris marines with an apothecary, Gravis Captain, and Big Bobby G. I managed to drop Guilliman to 4 wounds with smites after deepstriking a DK, Terminators, and Chaplain, plus blowing the 2CP psybolt strategem for shooting from the terminators. Between that and the Fury of Deimos on the chaplain (my warlord, with First to the Fray)I figured I could ace him right then and there. While I did fail my charges with the DK and Chaplain the terminators made it in. I did no wounds to Guilliman while he killed all 5 terminators. He then went on to Kill the Chaplain and DK while being healed back up to full from the apothecary over the next few turns.

I picked apart the rest of the primaris army while grinding my own out. I got the Paladins + Paladin Ancient + Apothecary in against Guilliman with hammerhand and Sanctuary up and still lost all my paladins, apothecary, and ancient over two rounds of combat (1 hammer, 4 swords). Guilliman ended the game at full health.

So, how do we as an army deal with him? We don't have wide access to ranged heavy firepower in the volume needed to drop past his 3++ - so in my opinion we're forced to stack buffs and engage in melee. Did I stack correctly and just didn't get the dice needed, or is he really that hard? I figured 5 paladins with +1 attack and +1 to wound would be enough to hang enough D3 damage hits on him to drop him.

We also don't have a horde to tie him up with. And I feel that we can't be passive and try and range-game his army out when he castles up as we can't compete with the re-roll hits and wounds en masse.

So, yeah. Any tips on how to engage him and his possible castle?

as an aside, I ended up winning the game by 1vp with two models left on the field (LRC and Voldus). Maelstrom of War mission. I couldn't kill him so I ran around grabbing objectives.


You had very bad luck. The Paladins with +1 attack and Hammerhand should have iced him. Of course he has a 75% chance to get back up again so take the other posters advice and kill everything else before dealing with Bobby G.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/19 00:22:11


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 Marmatag wrote:
I see this Terminators are inferior to Paladins stuff quite a bit. Mathematically, it's true, but, that assumes no bounded conditions.

You have 2000 points to spend, and neither Paladins nor Terminators are considered must-take. With that said, you have a very limited amount of workable points where you could fit either of these in.

With the new stratagems, a battalion is a smart decision.

So when you factor in:
(a) You absolutely have to have the "must includes" in your army.
(b) You only have 2000 total points to spend
(c) You need to bring 3 troops
(d) Terminators have objective secured

Terminators are more usable than Paladins.

In a straight up comparison with no boundary conditions, Paladins are greater than Terminators. But when you're building a list, fitting in Paladins in a meaningful way is incredibly costly.

Strike Squads do OS cheaper if you desperately want it. The significant level of durability in Paladins is better, simply because a dead Terminator can't hold am objective.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/19 08:56:40


Post by: Quickjager


Pretty much what Slayer said.

If you want OS use Strike Squads who are more numerous and therefore able to contest other OS squads more easily than Terminators. They are also much more durable against most things Terminators are weak to because you aren't getting a 46 point model pasted by plasma, autocannon, etc. as the 2 damage doesn't count for much against a 1 wound model.

Also more attacks per point, combat squadding is much more feasible pointwise for deepstriking synergy, and you can actually move them with Rhino's if you want.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/19 13:05:29


Post by: Bigfashizzel


I think there is a place for Terminators, but scion plasma has put them in a difficult spot. 15 points for a unit that can 1-shot a 46 point model roughly 35% of the time is bogus. Against GK terminators, plasma scions are, on average, capable of making their points back in a single round of shooting.

Wouldn't be such a big deal, except that Plasma is the Swiss Army knife of the edition, and Scion command squads are cheap enough they see a lot of play.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/19 17:48:33


Post by: Rolling Thunder


So the warlord trait FttF is obviously great, especially with NDK GMs teleporting in, but I find that if the warlord is a NDK GM, he is priority number one and tends to get iced, giving up VPs for Slay the warlord... To address this, I have found that making a lowly Apothecary the warlord to be an interesting solution... Give him the Curiass of Sacrifice, and with his innate healing, he is a real bugger to kill... You can still teleport him in with your NDKs and paladins so the benefit from FttF, which seems to work well...

Thoughts?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/19 19:18:49


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Rolling Thunder wrote:
So the warlord trait FttF is obviously great, especially with NDK GMs teleporting in, but I find that if the warlord is a NDK GM, he is priority number one and tends to get iced, giving up VPs for Slay the warlord... To address this, I have found that making a lowly Apothecary the warlord to be an interesting solution... Give him the Curiass of Sacrifice, and with his innate healing, he is a real bugger to kill... You can still teleport him in with your NDKs and paladins so the benefit from FttF, which seems to work well...

Thoughts?

If your sole goal is to not give up Slay The Warlord, it's actually a fantastic idea. I don't think it to be necessary at all though, and I honestly expect my warlord to die in every game I play, no matter what army I play. The moment they grab an objective themselves or gained a KP is the moment they make up for giving up a potential VP on my opponents end.

I'm more reckless and uncaring in my games though with my Warlord because real heroes are the martyrs that die for the Emperor.

I mean it's just one potential VP.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/19 22:50:07


Post by: Thor0298


I just got my first dreadknight. I plan on getting a grandmaster dreadknight too. I was thinking of loading it out it the sword, psilencer and psycannon. What's the preferred loadout for a regular dreadknight?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/19 23:11:08


Post by: Spartacus


So the warlord trait FttF is obviously great, especially with NDK GMs teleporting in, but I find that if the warlord is a NDK GM, he is priority number one and tends to get iced, giving up VPs for Slay the warlord... To address this, I have found that making a lowly Apothecary the warlord to be an interesting solution... Give him the Curiass of Sacrifice, and with his innate healing, he is a real bugger to kill... You can still teleport him in with your NDKs and paladins so the benefit from FttF, which seems to work well...

Thoughts?


If my opponent wants to bash his head against a T6 2++ 12W brick wall all game just for the sake of a warlord kill, I'd consider that a win. Slay the warlord is more easily achieved than ever in this edition, and as Slayer-Fan said its pretty much something you should expect to happen most games. Might as well make it work to your advantage.

Thor0298 wrote:
I just got my first dreadknight. I plan on getting a grandmaster dreadknight too. I was thinking of loading it out it the sword, psilencer and psycannon. What's the preferred loadout for a regular dreadknight?


Exactly that I'd say.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/20 02:51:44


Post by: Red Comet


Hey all. This is my first attempt at a Grey Knight's list in 8th edition. Do you all have any thoughts on it? I'm looking to make this into an all comer's list that I can work towards building/painting up that can also be somewhat competitive.


+ HQ +

Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight: Warlord Trait: First to the Fray, Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Gate of Infinity, Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Greatsword, Sanctuary

Lord Kaldor Draigo: Gate of Infinity, Sanctuary

+ Troops +

Strike Squad : Gate of Infinity
. 3x Grey Knight (Falchion): 3x Storm Bolter
. Grey Knight (Psilencer): Psilencer
. Grey Knight Justicar: Storm bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions

Strike Squad : Gate of Infinity
. 3x Grey Knight (Falchion): 3x Storm Bolter
. Grey Knight (Psilencer): Psilencer
. Grey Knight Justicar: Storm bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions

Strike Squad: Gate of Infinity
. 3x Grey Knight (Falchion): 3x Storm Bolter
. Grey Knight (Psilencer): Psilencer
. Grey Knight Justicar: Storm bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions

+ Heavy Support +

Purgation Squad: Gate of Infinity
. 4x Purgator (Psilencer): 4x Psilencer
. Purgator Justicar: Storm bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions

Purgation Squad Gate of Infinity
. 4x Purgator (Psilencer): 4x Psilencer
. Purgator Justicar: Storm bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions

+ Flyer +

Stormraven Gunship 2x Hurricane Bolter, 2x Stormstrike Missile Launcher, Twin Assault Cannon, Twin multi-melta

Stormraven Gunship 2x Hurricane Bolter, 2x Stormstrike Missile Launcher, Twin Assault Cannon, Twin multi-melta

+ Dedicated Transport +

Razorback: Twin Assault Cannon

Razorback Twin Assault Cannon

Razorback Twin Assault Cannon


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/20 14:40:26


Post by: Homeskillet


Rolling Thunder wrote:
So the warlord trait FttF is obviously great, especially with NDK GMs teleporting in, but I find that if the warlord is a NDK GM, he is priority number one and tends to get iced, giving up VPs for Slay the warlord... To address this, I have found that making a lowly Apothecary the warlord to be an interesting solution... Give him the Curiass of Sacrifice, and with his innate healing, he is a real bugger to kill... You can still teleport him in with your NDKs and paladins so the benefit from FttF, which seems to work well...

Thoughts?


When he drops in and gets Sanctuary up, the GM is crazy resilient. The 3++ is no joke, and you can always command point a re-roll if needed if you fail that Lascannon save. Also, I've been using a Techmarine to be the GM's healbot, and it's been working great.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Red Comet wrote:
Hey all. This is my first attempt at a Grey Knight's list in 8th edition. Do you all have any thoughts on it? I'm looking to make this into an all comer's list that I can work towards building/painting up that can also be somewhat competitive.


+ HQ +

Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight: Warlord Trait: First to the Fray, Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Gate of Infinity, Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Greatsword, Sanctuary

Lord Kaldor Draigo: Gate of Infinity, Sanctuary

+ Troops +

Strike Squad : Gate of Infinity
. 3x Grey Knight (Falchion): 3x Storm Bolter
. Grey Knight (Psilencer): Psilencer
. Grey Knight Justicar: Storm bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions

Strike Squad : Gate of Infinity
. 3x Grey Knight (Falchion): 3x Storm Bolter
. Grey Knight (Psilencer): Psilencer
. Grey Knight Justicar: Storm bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions

Strike Squad: Gate of Infinity
. 3x Grey Knight (Falchion): 3x Storm Bolter
. Grey Knight (Psilencer): Psilencer
. Grey Knight Justicar: Storm bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions

+ Heavy Support +

Purgation Squad: Gate of Infinity
. 4x Purgator (Psilencer): 4x Psilencer
. Purgator Justicar: Storm bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions

Purgation Squad Gate of Infinity
. 4x Purgator (Psilencer): 4x Psilencer
. Purgator Justicar: Storm bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions

+ Flyer +

Stormraven Gunship 2x Hurricane Bolter, 2x Stormstrike Missile Launcher, Twin Assault Cannon, Twin multi-melta

Stormraven Gunship 2x Hurricane Bolter, 2x Stormstrike Missile Launcher, Twin Assault Cannon, Twin multi-melta

+ Dedicated Transport +

Razorback: Twin Assault Cannon

Razorback Twin Assault Cannon

Razorback Twin Assault Cannon


Very solid list. I think Draigo is unnecessary in this build, but if you like him, he's never bad. You could put in a Techmarine to heal the GM, or replace Draigo with a Chaplain or cheaper GM. I'd also consider Lascannons on your Stormravens; you have a lot of good anti-infantry, but a bit more anti-tank could be great.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/20 17:11:23


Post by: Vortenger


wraith wrote:
Figure well-balanced TAC list, in a multi-game event so can't skew for seeing Guilliman.

How do we deal with him? I played a game recently my opponent castled in a set of ruins with copious amounts of primaris marines with an apothecary, Gravis Captain, and Big Bobby G. I managed to drop Guilliman to 4 wounds with smites after deepstriking a DK, Terminators, and Chaplain, plus blowing the 2CP psybolt strategem for shooting from the terminators. Between that and the Fury of Deimos on the chaplain (my warlord, with First to the Fray)I figured I could ace him right then and there. While I did fail my charges with the DK and Chaplain the terminators made it in. I did no wounds to Guilliman while he killed all 5 terminators. He then went on to Kill the Chaplain and DK while being healed back up to full from the apothecary over the next few turns.

I picked apart the rest of the primaris army while grinding my own out. I got the Paladins + Paladin Ancient + Apothecary in against Guilliman with hammerhand and Sanctuary up and still lost all my paladins, apothecary, and ancient over two rounds of combat (1 hammer, 4 swords). Guilliman ended the game at full health.

So, yeah. Any tips on how to engage him and his possible castle?


Rouboute Guilliman can't be healed by an Apothecary. He's a monster, not an infantry or a bike. Your opponent cheated, though probably not on purpose.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/20 17:41:47


Post by: HeavenLord


We get FAQed, nor more 2++ save with sanctuary ...


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/20 17:44:49


Post by: Audustum


Are we really so dangerous, GW, that we needed a FAQ only to be nerfed?

Also, couldn't you get around this by just using the Stratagem after Sanctuary?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/20 17:58:30


Post by: HeavenLord


No only "at the start of your turn" ..


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/20 17:59:16


Post by: Audustum


HeavenLord wrote:
No only "at the start of your turn" ..


Ah right, well, you can still Stratagem a 2++ on Draigo then but that's it.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/20 19:05:38


Post by: TheMostWize


 alanmckenzie wrote:
 Quickjager wrote:
Terminators are wayyyyy overcosted. Paladins are good.

Paladins take literally double the shots of overcharged plasma to kill, for about a 20% price increase. Downside? They become point pinatas against lascannons, melta, or battle-cannons. But no one runs enough lascannons really, melta is on pretty immobile short ranged units, and battle-cannons are so bad people don't use them.

Paladins are always better. EXCEPT in very fringe cases.

Falchions have been mathhammered to be the best, but take a hammer on your Paladin squad leader, because he has a 2+ that becomes a 3+ to hit. More value that way.

Special weapons are your call, I think most people here agree take special weapons on power armor, not TEQ.



Thanks for this reply. Some good info.

I don't suppose there's much stopping me from running them as either paladins or standard terminators depending on how many points I want to spend.

And looking at the sprues, there's nothing stopping me from magnetising the Apothecary and Battle Standard arms.

So, the hammer on the Paragon or Justicar (good shout).
2 dudes with falchions.
2 dudes with halberds (one with magnetised right arm who can become the ancient, one with magnetised left arm who can become the Apothecary).

Thanks again.


Hammer on Paragon, Falchions on the rest all day. If your building an apothecary give him a hammer or a stave for the increased killing power/durability respectively.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/20 21:00:58


Post by: Spartacus


Yay for FAQ's...

I'm gonna take an apothecary to my next battle, mostly just for fun.

Can anyone see any reason why the apothecary cannot target himself with his Narthecium ability? Looks fine to me but just wanted to be sure.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/20 22:03:45


Post by: Jaxler


So they nerfed us and said nothing on if we could get dreadnoughts with autocannons? Nice


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/20 22:24:00


Post by: Kahor


So the FAQ stops Draigo casting sanctuary on himself but that's all, you can still do the GM 2++.

1. Use the stratagem at the start of the turn as it says (so you add 1 to your inv saving throws)
2. During psychic phase cast new and faq'd sanctuary which now increases your inv save by 1 to a maximum of 3+
3. You now, effectively, have a 2++.

Your GM now has a 3++ due to sanctuary and whenever you roll to save you have a +1 modifier on the roll due to the stratagem.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/20 22:54:28


Post by: Bi'ios


Thoughts on a brigade to max out smite spam? I pointed one out, you can fit Crowe, a Brotherhood Champion, a Brother Captain, 6x Strikes, and 3x Apothecaries/Purgation Squads/Interceptor Squads, with a few points left over for some psilincers. That's a potential 18 smites, many of which have increased range, healing from the apothecaries spread out, lots of storm bolter and psilincer dakka, plus a whole lot of deep striking or teleporting squads. With the 12 CP, does anyone think it's a doable army, or just gimmicky?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/20 23:03:21


Post by: Spartacus


 Bi'ios wrote:
Thoughts on a brigade to max out smite spam? I pointed one out, you can fit Crowe, a Brotherhood Champion, a Brother Captain, 6x Strikes, and 3x Apothecaries/Purgation Squads/Interceptor Squads, with a few points left over for some psilincers. That's a potential 18 smites, many of which have increased range, healing from the apothecaries spread out, lots of storm bolter and psilincer dakka, plus a whole lot of deep striking or teleporting squads. With the 12 CP, does anyone think it's a doable army, or just gimmicky?


If you're going for smite spam it'll be worth trying to fit in an Ancient with the relic banner - with the bonus from the brother captain he will have a D6 smite with 12 inch range, so straight outta deepstrike. Not sure how that works with your points limit.

It'll probably work ok unless you're up against Guard or 'Nids.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/20 23:35:20


Post by: Bi'ios


Spartacus wrote:
 Bi'ios wrote:
Thoughts on a brigade to max out smite spam? I pointed one out, you can fit Crowe, a Brotherhood Champion, a Brother Captain, 6x Strikes, and 3x Apothecaries/Purgation Squads/Interceptor Squads, with a few points left over for some psilincers. That's a potential 18 smites, many of which have increased range, healing from the apothecaries spread out, lots of storm bolter and psilincer dakka, plus a whole lot of deep striking or teleporting squads. With the 12 CP, does anyone think it's a doable army, or just gimmicky?


If you're going for smite spam it'll be worth trying to fit in an Ancient with the relic banner - with the bonus from the brother captain he will have a D6 smite with 12 inch range, so straight outta deepstrike. Not sure how that works with your points limit.

It'll probably work ok unless you're up against Guard or 'Nids.


I suppose I should have mentioned it's at 2000pts. There's really little to no wiggle room in there. I had considered what you'd mentioned, but to fit him I'd have to drop the Brother Captain for something cheaper, and he's pretty important.

My current meta doesn't have anyone running any hordes, so that's good (although I'm looking forward towards building a competitive army).


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/21 02:23:09


Post by: Thor0298


I'm about to build up my first strike squad box and was thinking dual falchions and storm bolters. Possibly a heavy weapon in there too. How do you guys like loading out your strikes squads?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/21 02:53:00


Post by: jcd386


Falchions, SB, and a Psylencer if you have the points.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/21 03:00:32


Post by: Red Comet


 Homeskillet wrote:
Rolling Thunder wrote:
So the warlord trait FttF is obviously great, especially with NDK GMs teleporting in, but I find that if the warlord is a NDK GM, he is priority number one and tends to get iced, giving up VPs for Slay the warlord... To address this, I have found that making a lowly Apothecary the warlord to be an interesting solution... Give him the Curiass of Sacrifice, and with his innate healing, he is a real bugger to kill... You can still teleport him in with your NDKs and paladins so the benefit from FttF, which seems to work well...

Thoughts?


When he drops in and gets Sanctuary up, the GM is crazy resilient. The 3++ is no joke, and you can always command point a re-roll if needed if you fail that Lascannon save. Also, I've been using a Techmarine to be the GM's healbot, and it's been working great.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Red Comet wrote:
Hey all. This is my first attempt at a Grey Knight's list in 8th edition. Do you all have any thoughts on it? I'm looking to make this into an all comer's list that I can work towards building/painting up that can also be somewhat competitive.


+ HQ +

Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight: Warlord Trait: First to the Fray, Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Gate of Infinity, Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Greatsword, Sanctuary

Lord Kaldor Draigo: Gate of Infinity, Sanctuary

+ Troops +

Strike Squad : Gate of Infinity
. 3x Grey Knight (Falchion): 3x Storm Bolter
. Grey Knight (Psilencer): Psilencer
. Grey Knight Justicar: Storm bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions

Strike Squad : Gate of Infinity
. 3x Grey Knight (Falchion): 3x Storm Bolter
. Grey Knight (Psilencer): Psilencer
. Grey Knight Justicar: Storm bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions

Strike Squad: Gate of Infinity
. 3x Grey Knight (Falchion): 3x Storm Bolter
. Grey Knight (Psilencer): Psilencer
. Grey Knight Justicar: Storm bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions

+ Heavy Support +

Purgation Squad: Gate of Infinity
. 4x Purgator (Psilencer): 4x Psilencer
. Purgator Justicar: Storm bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions

Purgation Squad Gate of Infinity
. 4x Purgator (Psilencer): 4x Psilencer
. Purgator Justicar: Storm bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions

+ Flyer +

Stormraven Gunship 2x Hurricane Bolter, 2x Stormstrike Missile Launcher, Twin Assault Cannon, Twin multi-melta

Stormraven Gunship 2x Hurricane Bolter, 2x Stormstrike Missile Launcher, Twin Assault Cannon, Twin multi-melta

+ Dedicated Transport +

Razorback: Twin Assault Cannon

Razorback Twin Assault Cannon

Razorback Twin Assault Cannon


Very solid list. I think Draigo is unnecessary in this build, but if you like him, he's never bad. You could put in a Techmarine to heal the GM, or replace Draigo with a Chaplain or cheaper GM. I'd also consider Lascannons on your Stormravens; you have a lot of good anti-infantry, but a bit more anti-tank could be great.

Huh a techmarine sounds really good to help keep the the GM alive. My only worry is trying to keep him close to the GMDK since I'd probably end up putting the GMDK in reserves. How do you play it? A Chaplain or a cheaper GM both sound good.
I was also thinking about Lascannons, but I was considering putting them on the Razorbacks. What do you think about Lascannons on the Stormravens and the Razorbacks?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/21 03:08:47


Post by: Bi'ios


Thor0298 wrote:
I'm about to build up my first strike squad box and was thinking dual falchions and storm bolters. Possibly a heavy weapon in there too. How do you guys like loading out your strikes squads?


Exactly as you've described is how I'm planning on doing mine. I'd leave the heavies out of the squad, though, unless you're going to run Purgatation/Purifiers. The reason for that being you lose your melee attacks and your shooting at full strength while on the move. A storm bolter is only 2 fewer shots than a psilincer when in rapid fire range, and you want to attack when you're that close anyway.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/21 11:21:33


Post by: Nithaniel


Any tips on how best to deal with T7 vehicles?

I went up against a triple wave serpent list and a hemlock yesterday. I had very little answer for it as he was advancing the serpents giving me -1 to hit them and moving and firing psycannons is at -1 as well. I was relying on gating and charging but once the GMDK got focus fired into oblivion I was failing 9" charges all game.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/21 12:14:20


Post by: Xenomancers


 Nithaniel wrote:
Any tips on how best to deal with T7 vehicles?

I went up against a triple wave serpent list and a hemlock yesterday. I had very little answer for it as he was advancing the serpents giving me -1 to hit them and moving and firing psycannons is at -1 as well. I was relying on gating and charging but once the GMDK got focus fired into oblivion I was failing 9" charges all game.

Shoot the hemlock - charge the serpents. Shoot all 2000 points at the hemlock if you must. Also GMDK are our best shooters - bring more than one.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/21 12:19:18


Post by: RobHampster


 Nithaniel wrote:
Any tips on how best to deal with T7 vehicles?

I went up against a triple wave serpent list and a hemlock yesterday. I had very little answer for it as he was advancing the serpents giving me -1 to hit them and moving and firing psycannons is at -1 as well. I was relying on gating and charging but once the GMDK got focus fired into oblivion I was failing 9" charges all game.


How about Ven dreads with twin lascannon and missile launchers as fire support with Kaldor Draigo giving rerolls? I haven't tried the tactic yet but I plan on using 2 alongside my in your face alpha strike tactics in my 2000pt army. I believe it could be quite powerful from deep cover with astral aim.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/21 12:38:53


Post by: Ericthegreen


So I came to Greys in 8th because I'm a terminator fanboy and I've done Deathwing armies in the past and psychic monks in battle plate appeals.

Gonna go out on a limb and say I'm happy taking terminators over Paladins for core to get access to the battalion (no strike squads here...)

2000 Points
GMNDK - g.psilencer, h.psycannon, greatsword, first to the fray, sanctuary, purge soul, teleporter
GMNDK - g.psilencer, h.psycannon, daemonhammer, gate of infinity, purge soul, teleporter

GKT - 5, 2 swords, 2 halberds, daemonhammer, psilencer
GKT - 5, 2 swords, 2 halberds, daemonhammer, psilencer
GKT - 5, 2 swords, 2 halberds, daemonhammer, psilencer

Interceptors - 10, 2 psilencers, justicar w/halberd, 7 falchions
Interceptors - 10, 2 psilencers, justicar w/halberd, 7 falchions
Interceptors - 5, 1 psilencer, justicar w/halberd, 3 falchions

so 5 interceptor units on the table who all shunt turn 1. 5 units in deep strike to come down turn 1.

Lives or dies on the effectiveness of the alpha strike and spammy as hell, but if i wanted power armoured foot soldiers or storm ravens i'd be taking marines.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/21 12:50:13


Post by: Kahor


Ericthegreen wrote:
So I came to Greys in 8th because I'm a terminator fanboy and I've done Deathwing armies in the past and psychic monks in battle plate appeals.

Gonna go out on a limb and say I'm happy taking terminators over Paladins for core to get access to the battalion (no strike squads here...)

2000 Points
GMNDK - g.psilencer, h.psycannon, greatsword, first to the fray, sanctuary, purge soul, teleporter
GMNDK - g.psilencer, h.psycannon, daemonhammer, gate of infinity, purge soul, teleporter

GKT - 5, 2 swords, 2 halberds, daemonhammer, psilencer
GKT - 5, 2 swords, 2 halberds, daemonhammer, psilencer
GKT - 5, 2 swords, 2 halberds, daemonhammer, psilencer

Interceptors - 10, 2 psilencers, justicar w/halberd, 7 falchions
Interceptors - 10, 2 psilencers, justicar w/halberd, 7 falchions
Interceptors - 5, 1 psilencer, justicar w/halberd, 3 falchions

so 5 interceptor units on the table who all shunt turn 1. 5 units in deep strike to come down turn 1.

Lives or dies on the effectiveness of the alpha strike and spammy as hell, but if i wanted power armoured foot soldiers or storm ravens i'd be taking marines.


Looks fun to play for sure! All of nothing.

I'm curious why you gave one of the GM's gate? They're going to teleport in so why not give vortex of doom for more power given this is an all or nothing strategy?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/21 13:00:26


Post by: RobHampster


Ericthegreen wrote:
So I came to Greys in 8th because I'm a terminator fanboy and I've done Deathwing armies in the past and psychic monks in battle plate appeals.

Gonna go out on a limb and say I'm happy taking terminators over Paladins for core to get access to the battalion (no strike squads here...)

2000 Points
GMNDK - g.psilencer, h.psycannon, greatsword, first to the fray, sanctuary, purge soul, teleporter
GMNDK - g.psilencer, h.psycannon, daemonhammer, gate of infinity, purge soul, teleporter

GKT - 5, 2 swords, 2 halberds, daemonhammer, psilencer
GKT - 5, 2 swords, 2 halberds, daemonhammer, psilencer
GKT - 5, 2 swords, 2 halberds, daemonhammer, psilencer

Interceptors - 10, 2 psilencers, justicar w/halberd, 7 falchions
Interceptors - 10, 2 psilencers, justicar w/halberd, 7 falchions
Interceptors - 5, 1 psilencer, justicar w/halberd, 3 falchions

so 5 interceptor units on the table who all shunt turn 1. 5 units in deep strike to come down turn 1.

Lives or dies on the effectiveness of the alpha strike and spammy as hell, but if i wanted power armoured foot soldiers or storm ravens i'd be taking marines.


Personally I'd want some more high strength attacks/shots. If a GMDK goes down in opponent turn 1 (not necessarily unlikely with alot of focus fire), it could become quite difficult. Dealing with high toughness, high wound flyers could also be difficult. I suppose it all depends on the opponent's list really. I completely agree that the alpha strike is where Grey Knights win or lose. We simply don't deal well with attrition.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/21 13:59:41


Post by: Ericthegreen


Kahor wrote:
Looks fun to play for sure! All of nothing.

I'm curious why you gave one of the GM's gate? They're going to teleport in so why not give vortex of doom for more power given this is an all or nothing strategy?


Good question. In the 1500 version of the list, one of the dreadknights has to start on the table and use Gate, so its a holdover from that. The only powers i'm married to are Sanctuary for the warlord and hammerhand for the terminators. the rest I think I can test, but will likely end up with a mix of purge soul and vortex.

RobHampster wrote:
Personally I'd want some more high strength attacks/shots. If a GMDK goes down in opponent turn 1 (not necessarily unlikely with alot of focus fire), it could become quite difficult. Dealing with high toughness, high wound flyers could also be difficult. I suppose it all depends on the opponent's list really. I completely agree that the alpha strike is where Grey Knights win or lose. We simply don't deal well with attrition.


that is a problem. I'm kinda relying on pushing through psilencer wounds and the CC potential of the GMNDK with sword and hammer (i don't like the aesthetics of the hammer.l would prefer double fist, but needs must). Alongside the terminators who will never catch a flyer.

This in your face 9 inches away from turn 1 with charge rerolls is undoubtedly more effective with massed strike squads - double the storm bolter shots, double the heavy weapons fire. same amount of attacks in CC for the points. But power armour is not as pretty as terminator armour


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/21 17:57:41


Post by: tman3257


Not sure if this has been discussed but is it legal to use Heed the Prognosticars on a unit that is not on the battlefield yet?

I ask because it must be used at the start of your turn, and deep striking doesn't happen until the end of your movement phase.

I don't see any particular rule against it, but it also feels a little weird.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/22 20:10:15


Post by: Gest


Ericthegreen wrote:
So I came to Greys in 8th because I'm a terminator fanboy and I've done Deathwing armies in the past and psychic monks in battle plate appeals.

Gonna go out on a limb and say I'm happy taking terminators over Paladins for core to get access to the battalion (no strike squads here...)

2000 Points
GMNDK - g.psilencer, h.psycannon, greatsword, first to the fray, sanctuary, purge soul, teleporter
GMNDK - g.psilencer, h.psycannon, daemonhammer, gate of infinity, purge soul, teleporter

GKT - 5, 2 swords, 2 halberds, daemonhammer, psilencer
GKT - 5, 2 swords, 2 halberds, daemonhammer, psilencer
GKT - 5, 2 swords, 2 halberds, daemonhammer, psilencer

Interceptors - 10, 2 psilencers, justicar w/halberd, 7 falchions
Interceptors - 10, 2 psilencers, justicar w/halberd, 7 falchions
Interceptors - 5, 1 psilencer, justicar w/halberd, 3 falchions

so 5 interceptor units on the table who all shunt turn 1. 5 units in deep strike to come down turn 1.

Lives or dies on the effectiveness of the alpha strike and spammy as hell, but if i wanted power armoured foot soldiers or storm ravens i'd be taking marines.


Wouldn't your alpha strike be stronger if you DON'T combat squad?
In my opinion the stratagems get way more efficient that way.
Its the GK dilemma. Psybolt works best on large units, but to get enough CP you have to field MSU.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/22 21:13:08


Post by: Ericthegreen


Can get away with not combat squadding 1 unit if one of the gmndk takes gate of infinity.

5 on the table means 5 in reserve though


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/22 22:14:30


Post by: Homeskillet


 Red Comet wrote:
 Homeskillet wrote:
Rolling Thunder wrote:
So the warlord trait FttF is obviously great, especially with NDK GMs teleporting in, but I find that if the warlord is a NDK GM, he is priority number one and tends to get iced, giving up VPs for Slay the warlord... To address this, I have found that making a lowly Apothecary the warlord to be an interesting solution... Give him the Curiass of Sacrifice, and with his innate healing, he is a real bugger to kill... You can still teleport him in with your NDKs and paladins so the benefit from FttF, which seems to work well...

Thoughts?


When he drops in and gets Sanctuary up, the GM is crazy resilient. The 3++ is no joke, and you can always command point a re-roll if needed if you fail that Lascannon save. Also, I've been using a Techmarine to be the GM's healbot, and it's been working great.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Red Comet wrote:
Hey all. This is my first attempt at a Grey Knight's list in 8th edition. Do you all have any thoughts on it? I'm looking to make this into an all comer's list that I can work towards building/painting up that can also be somewhat competitive.


+ HQ +

Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight: Warlord Trait: First to the Fray, Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Gate of Infinity, Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Greatsword, Sanctuary

Lord Kaldor Draigo: Gate of Infinity, Sanctuary

+ Troops +

Strike Squad : Gate of Infinity
. 3x Grey Knight (Falchion): 3x Storm Bolter
. Grey Knight (Psilencer): Psilencer
. Grey Knight Justicar: Storm bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions

Strike Squad : Gate of Infinity
. 3x Grey Knight (Falchion): 3x Storm Bolter
. Grey Knight (Psilencer): Psilencer
. Grey Knight Justicar: Storm bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions

Strike Squad: Gate of Infinity
. 3x Grey Knight (Falchion): 3x Storm Bolter
. Grey Knight (Psilencer): Psilencer
. Grey Knight Justicar: Storm bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions

+ Heavy Support +

Purgation Squad: Gate of Infinity
. 4x Purgator (Psilencer): 4x Psilencer
. Purgator Justicar: Storm bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions

Purgation Squad Gate of Infinity
. 4x Purgator (Psilencer): 4x Psilencer
. Purgator Justicar: Storm bolter, Two Nemesis Falchions

+ Flyer +

Stormraven Gunship 2x Hurricane Bolter, 2x Stormstrike Missile Launcher, Twin Assault Cannon, Twin multi-melta

Stormraven Gunship 2x Hurricane Bolter, 2x Stormstrike Missile Launcher, Twin Assault Cannon, Twin multi-melta

+ Dedicated Transport +

Razorback: Twin Assault Cannon

Razorback Twin Assault Cannon

Razorback Twin Assault Cannon


Very solid list. I think Draigo is unnecessary in this build, but if you like him, he's never bad. You could put in a Techmarine to heal the GM, or replace Draigo with a Chaplain or cheaper GM. I'd also consider Lascannons on your Stormravens; you have a lot of good anti-infantry, but a bit more anti-tank could be great.

Huh a techmarine sounds really good to help keep the the GM alive. My only worry is trying to keep him close to the GMDK since I'd probably end up putting the GMDK in reserves. How do you play it? A Chaplain or a cheaper GM both sound good.
I was also thinking about Lascannons, but I was considering putting them on the Razorbacks. What do you think about Lascannons on the Stormravens and the Razorbacks?


Yeah I pay the CP to put the Techmarine on the Teleportarium. I don't think Chaplains will ever be bad if you're playing GK, we tend to be better in assault anyway. I don't think it'd hurt to make one Razorback a Lascannon, but twin Assault Cannons mow through infantry quite nicely.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/22 22:16:05


Post by: Xenomancers


like the rest of the GK army.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/23 05:24:47


Post by: Homeskillet


 Xenomancers wrote:
like the rest of the GK army.


True story.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/23 20:14:10


Post by: TzeentchMensch


Has anyone experimented with adding a single Warding Staff to their Strike Squads & Paladins?

The additional invulnerable save comes in handy sometimes but I'm not sure it's worth the loss in DPS output.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/23 21:34:53


Post by: Marmatag


stillflowing wrote:
Has anyone experimented with adding a single Warding Staff to their Strike Squads & Paladins?

The additional invulnerable save comes in handy sometimes but I'm not sure it's worth the loss in DPS output.


I do this sometimes. All in all a 5++, or 4++ with sanctuary, on a power armored model, isn't the worst thing in the world. You probably have better things to apply sanctuary to, but even so, it can situationally benefit you.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/23 21:55:17


Post by: Quickjager


Huh.. just realized a Champion can get a 2++ in the fight phase as well.

Hmmm, the Champion is pretty damn flexible. 3++ from Sanctuary and then his Blade Shield stance means he is the only model that can reach a 2++ without using a Stratagem. He is only really limited by his low # of attacks.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/23 22:48:43


Post by: daedalus


I haven't played with the GK Codex yet. Having that been said, it usually takes me a game or two to wrap my head around it. I'm thinking about this for my initial 2000 point list:

Battalion:
GMNDK - Heavy Psycannon, Gatling Psilencer, Teleporter, Warlord (FttF),
Voldus

5 Strike Squad - Psilencer, Daemonhammer, 3 falcions
5 Strike Squad - Psilencer, Daemonhammer, 3 falcions
5 Strike Squad - Psilencer, Daemonhammer, 3 falcions

TLLC Razorback
TLLC Razorback
TLLC Razorback

Vanguard:
Draigo

Paladin Ancient - Banner of refining flame
5 Paladin Squad - 3 Falchions, 2 psilencers and falchions
5 Purifier Squad - 5 Falcions

The DHs will probably make their way to the Paladins and Purifiers, but the plan here is to use the 15 strikes to DS screen my razorbacks, and then hold backfield objectives with them, and then use the other 6 drops to basically just try to out alpha-strike the enemy.

Has anyone tried anything similar to this? Obviously this method is sort of putting literally all the eggs into one basket and relying on FttF for the first turn assaults. How's that been working for people? Has anyone crunched the odds of that paying off?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now I'm also considering a warding staff in the paladins to give one of them a 3++ with sanctuary if I don't make the assault.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/24 01:35:04


Post by: Deepeyes


I have had great success with this list. (1500)

Outrider Detachment

GMNDK-Heavy Psycannon, Gatling Psilencer, Teleporter, Nemesis Greatsword (warlord)

Interceptor x6 Falcions
Interceptor x5 Falcions
Interceptor x5 Falcions



Vanguard Detachment

GMNDK-Heavy Psycannon, Gatling Psilencer, Teleporter, Nemesis Greatsword

Apothecary- Warding stave and Relic storm bolter
Paladins x5 -Halberds
Dreadnought - Twin las cannon and Missile launcher

Warlord knows Sanctuary and hammer hand
Other GMNDK knows vortex and Sanctuary
Dreadnought knows Astral aim
Everyone else knows Gate of infinity

Having that dreadnought just hide some place and pop shots at vehicles at just about any place on the table is very annoying. My whole army can be right in the enemy face.

I ran this list last night against space wolves and Tau and it was very one sided. The Grand master just gets targeted but works perfectly as a distraction.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/24 06:13:36


Post by: hairojin


Sorry but battlescribe is wrong. GM and GMNDK can cast two powers but only know one power plus smite.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/24 08:07:04


Post by: RobHampster


 daedalus wrote:
I haven't played with the GK Codex yet. Having that been said, it usually takes me a game or two to wrap my head around it. I'm thinking about this for my initial 2000 point list:

Battalion:
GMNDK - Heavy Psycannon, Gatling Psilencer, Teleporter, Warlord (FttF),
Voldus

5 Strike Squad - Psilencer, Daemonhammer, 3 falcions
5 Strike Squad - Psilencer, Daemonhammer, 3 falcions
5 Strike Squad - Psilencer, Daemonhammer, 3 falcions

TLLC Razorback
TLLC Razorback
TLLC Razorback

Vanguard:
Draigo

Paladin Ancient - Banner of refining flame
5 Paladin Squad - 3 Falchions, 2 psilencers and falchions
5 Purifier Squad - 5 Falcions

The DHs will probably make their way to the Paladins and Purifiers, but the plan here is to use the 15 strikes to DS screen my razorbacks, and then hold backfield objectives with them, and then use the other 6 drops to basically just try to out alpha-strike the enemy.

Has anyone tried anything similar to this? Obviously this method is sort of putting literally all the eggs into one basket and relying on FttF for the first turn assaults. How's that been working for people? Has anyone crunched the odds of that paying off?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now I'm also considering a warding staff in the paladins to give one of them a 3++ with sanctuary if I don't make the assault.


Chance of rolling a 9 or better is 0.2777 (success of first roll). So 1-0.2777=0.7223 (likelihood of failure of first roll). Probability of succeeding with a the reroll is 0.7223 X 0.2777 = 0.2006. So total probability of success is 0.2777 + 0.2006 = 0.4783. Roughly the same odds as trying g to charge from 7-8 inches.

Love GMNDKs,
Strike squads are strong as the required troop choice,
love Paladins,
Draigo and Voldus are individually a no brainer to improve the alpha strike effectiveness with rerolls and auras and whatnot (not sure I'd take both especially as the GMNDKs already have rerolls and you can only ever reroll once),
I find that purifiers are a waste of time unless you can certainly drop them right in the face of an important unit to purifying flame and light them up with bolter fire and then charge if still required (I use a storm raven with purifiers in my 1000pt list, it also drops a doomglaive right in their face at the same time reinforcing my first turn deepstrike) - the purifiers then inevitably die very quickly, I'm dubious about the value of the paladin ancient (my grey Knights have never failed a morale test and leadership is a waste of time unless you purge soul every turn) - the extra attack is clearly useful against infantry but the ridiculous amount of storm bolter fire generally deals with them and I find cc to be a waste of time with infantry against high toughness stuff.
I haven't really considered TLC razorbacks, I use Ven dreads (or regular dreads in KDs aura) to access lascannon. I prefer no degeneration and the increased hits. Also psykers so astral aim... However the razorbacks are definitely cheaper...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Deepeyes wrote:
I have had great success with this list. (1500)

Outrider Detachment

GMNDK-Heavy Psycannon, Gatling Psilencer, Teleporter, Nemesis Greatsword (warlord)

Interceptor x6 Falcions
Interceptor x5 Falcions
Interceptor x5 Falcions



Vanguard Detachment

GMNDK-Heavy Psycannon, Gatling Psilencer, Teleporter, Nemesis Greatsword

Apothecary- Warding stave and Relic storm bolter
Paladins x5 -Halberds
Dreadnought - Twin las cannon and Missile launcher

Warlord knows Sanctuary and hammer hand
Other GMNDK knows vortex and Sanctuary
Dreadnought knows Astral aim
Everyone else knows Gate of infinity

Having that dreadnought just hide some place and pop shots at vehicles at just about any place on the table is very annoying. My whole army can be right in the enemy face.

I ran this list last night against space wolves and Tau and it was very one sided. The Grand master just gets targeted but works perfectly as a distraction.


Have you though about Ven dreads for increased hits?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/24 09:10:41


Post by: Deepeyes



Have you though about Ven dreads for increased hits?


Nice, I dropped one interceptor and got it to fit


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/24 09:46:30


Post by: Mandragola


I'm looking at taking a mixture of GKs and Imperial fists in a tournament army I'm working on. A battalion of each should give me a lot of CPs, a decent hammer and anvil for deployment purposes, and prevent me from running out of psychic powers to cast.

Here's what I'm looking at:

Chaplain Dreadnought with lascannons and storm bolter 212
Primaris Librarian 105
10 Intercessors with sword and 2 grenade launchers 206
5 Intercessors with sword and grenade launcher 105
5 Intercessors with grenade launcher 101
Contemptor with assault cannons 165
Xiphon Interceptor 210

Grand Master in NDK with Psilencer, Gatling Cannon, Teleporter and Sword 285
Grand Master Voldus 190
10 Strikes 210
5 Strikes 105
5 Strikes 105

I've got a few questions:

I have the enhanced edition of the codex. In it, there's no mention of the falchions giving +1 attack if you've got two. Is that correct? I'm not sure if it's a revision or just a mistake.

I'm not sure who to make my warlord. The Chaplain dread and the GMDK are in contention for the title. The GMDK gets a cool warlord trait, but actually in my army there's not a huge amount of GKs who would benefit from it. If a GK is my warlord then I have to take a GK relic. If the chaplain was warlord he could take an ok warlord trait and the armour indominatus, giving him a cheeky 2+ save and the option of a 3++ for a turn. Any thoughts?

And do you think it's generally any good? The basic idea is that the imperial fists deploy and then the GKs teleport in to help out, where needed. The basic idea came from noticing that 10 strikes using psybolt ammo would unleash insane amounts of firepower, which seems like fun.

I do have a bunch of terminators as well. I'd consider using them as paladins and running a vanguard instead of a battalion, but I'm not sure that would fit. The 5-man strike squads look a little weak, but not useless. Ultimately they are still troop squads I can drop anywhere, and have decent firepower.

I think that having 9 CPs should be helpful, as it will let me pop psybolt ammo on the big strike squad and psychic onslaught on the GMDK when they turn up. I'm therefore tempted to stick with the two battalions.


I could also cut down some fat from my HQs and field a couple of 5-man terminator squads instead of the strikes. That would look like this:

Primaris Captain with Assault Bolter and Power Sword 95
Primaris Lieutenant with Power Sword 74
10 Intercessors with sword and grenade launcher 205
5 Intercessors with grenade launcher 101
5 Intercessors with grenade launcher 101
Contemptor with assault cannons 165
Xiphon Interceptor 210

Grand Master in NDK with Psilencer, Gatling Cannon, Teleporter and Sword 285
Brotherhood Champion 115
9 Strikes 189
5 Terminators 230
5 Terminators 230

Overall I think it probably isn't worth it, and I lose more than I gain.

And finally, here's an option with a vanguard detachment, featuring paladins and a FW dreadnought (which it happens that I've actually got!)

Chaplain Dreadnought with lascannons and storm bolter 212
Primaris Lieutenant with Sword 74
10 Intercessors with sword and 2 grenade launchers 206
5 Intercessors with sword and grenade launcher 105
5 Intercessors with grenade launcher 101
Xiphon Interceptor 210

Grand Master in dreadknight with psilencer, heavy psycannon and teleporter 285
10 Strikes with storm bolters and falchions 210
5 Paladins. Hammer and 2 Psilencers 298
Doomglaive Dreadnought with heavy Psycannon and Storm Bolter 168
Brotherhood Ancient (with falchion, obvs) 130

I think perhaps I like the final list most, though I would probably miss those 2 CPs. The doomglaive dread seems an ok swap for the contemptor. It has a vastly better gun, though it's probably not quite so good in cc.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/24 14:34:25


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Split up the 10 man Intercessor squad. The Grenade Launcher upgrade can only be shot omce, because it's technically giving their regular grenades better range and you can only ever shoot one grenade per squad.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/24 15:58:08


Post by: Mandragola


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Split up the 10 man Intercessor squad. The Grenade Launcher upgrade can only be shot omce, because it's technically giving their regular grenades better range and you can only ever shoot one grenade per squad.

I'm not going to do that. I like my 10 man squad. They can combat squad if I feel like it in any given game, and that's why I've spent 1pt on a 2nd grenade launcher.

Anyway, it's the GK stuff I'm interested in hearing feedback on. Thanks though!


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/24 17:46:58


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Mandragola wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Split up the 10 man Intercessor squad. The Grenade Launcher upgrade can only be shot omce, because it's technically giving their regular grenades better range and you can only ever shoot one grenade per squad.

I'm not going to do that. I like my 10 man squad. They can combat squad if I feel like it in any given game, and that's why I've spent 1pt on a 2nd grenade launcher.

Anyway, it's the GK stuff I'm interested in hearing feedback on. Thanks though!

The sergeants are a free upgrade for that extra LD and attack though. It doesn't make any sense.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/24 18:09:56


Post by: Mandragola


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Split up the 10 man Intercessor squad. The Grenade Launcher upgrade can only be shot omce, because it's technically giving their regular grenades better range and you can only ever shoot one grenade per squad.

I'm not going to do that. I like my 10 man squad. They can combat squad if I feel like it in any given game, and that's why I've spent 1pt on a 2nd grenade launcher.

Anyway, it's the GK stuff I'm interested in hearing feedback on. Thanks though!

The sergeants are a free upgrade for that extra LD and attack though. It doesn't make any sense.

I disagree. There are buffs and stratagems that target units. They have more effect on big units. I know I lose the sergeant's attack and LD, but it's a trade-off I'm willing to make.

A particular reason to run big units of intercessors is that they are much tougher for cc armies to deal with. 5-man squads can easily be mobbed by hordes one at a time but 10-man squads have a lot of wounds to chew through, and get to hit back. I sometimes charge people with them too, as I find that 21 S4 attacks is bad news for lots of units.

This is also why I'm running a unit of 10 strikes as well, by the way. I'll drop them in and fire 40 heavy bolter shots with psybolt ammunition.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/24 20:44:00


Post by: Hoodwink


I agree with having one large size squad at least for the stratagems. A 10 man strike squad with storms bolters is normally putting out 40 shots at rapid fire range. Against MEQ, that's roughly 27 hits, 14 wounds, and 5 dead marines. With the psybolt ammunition it goes to 27 hits, 18 wounds, and 9 dead marines. This isn't including the buff from S4 to S5 that will help if you decide to shoot at a T5 or T8 unit.

The bigger squads will result in more advantageous results from your stratagems. I wouldn't run all squads that way but at least have one larger squad to take advantage of it. Deep striking a 10 man squad and popping off that stratagem is a wicked way to start an alpha strike.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/24 20:46:52


Post by: daedalus


This is a weird question that probably has an obvious answer, but I don't have the codex on me. The biggest squad size of any sort of unit you can get in GK currently is 10 models, right?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/24 23:53:14


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Mandragola wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Split up the 10 man Intercessor squad. The Grenade Launcher upgrade can only be shot omce, because it's technically giving their regular grenades better range and you can only ever shoot one grenade per squad.

I'm not going to do that. I like my 10 man squad. They can combat squad if I feel like it in any given game, and that's why I've spent 1pt on a 2nd grenade launcher.

Anyway, it's the GK stuff I'm interested in hearing feedback on. Thanks though!

The sergeants are a free upgrade for that extra LD and attack though. It doesn't make any sense.

I disagree. There are buffs and stratagems that target units. They have more effect on big units. I know I lose the sergeant's attack and LD, but it's a trade-off I'm willing to make.

A particular reason to run big units of intercessors is that they are much tougher for cc armies to deal with. 5-man squads can easily be mobbed by hordes one at a time but 10-man squads have a lot of wounds to chew through, and get to hit back. I sometimes charge people with them too, as I find that 21 S4 attacks is bad news for lots of units.

This is also why I'm running a unit of 10 strikes as well, by the way. I'll drop them in and fire 40 heavy bolter shots with psybolt ammunition.

I can't see what single Strategem I would want to use on a group of Intercessors.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/25 08:04:41


Post by: Nithaniel


I'm still having trouble against Hemlock WF's. Any benefit in running a Stormhawk?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/25 10:25:20


Post by: Smotejob


 daedalus wrote:
This is a weird question that probably has an obvious answer, but I don't have the codex on me. The biggest squad size of any sort of unit you can get in GK currently is 10 models, right?


Yes


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/25 11:24:12


Post by: Aeros


Hey guys - quick question how would a GK army deal with Chaos Spawn?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/25 12:01:12


Post by: Mandragola


 Aeros wrote:
Hey guys - quick question how would a GK army deal with Chaos Spawn?


Pretty easily, I imagine. They have all sorts of weapons that deal multiple wounds. Psilencers or close combat are probably some of the best options.

By the way, I've got the enhanced edition of the codex and it seems that there's a mistake in it. Falchions are missing the rule that gives you +1 attack for using two of them. The rule is still in the paper edition of the codex, so they remain the obvious weapon choice for almost everyone.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/25 12:08:28


Post by: Xenomancers


 Nithaniel wrote:
I'm still having trouble against Hemlock WF's. Any benefit in running a Stormhawk?
Vs Hemlocks I don't think they is a better option.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/25 12:30:34


Post by: DarthDiggler


I've been using a Beta strike list to some good effect recently.

Hq Valdus
HQ GM, psilencer, halberd relic
Hq Brother Captain
El venerable dread, twin lascannon, missile
El venerable dread, twin lascannon, missile
Tr 10 strike, halberd
Tr 5 strike, halberd
Tr 5 strike sword, 2 Psilencers
Tr 5 strike, falchions
Tr 5 strike, sword, 2 Psilencers
Fa 5 Interceptors, falchions
Fa 5 interceptors, falchions
HV 5 purgation, 4 Psilencers
HV 5 purgation, 4 Psilencers

I deploy the ven dreads, both purgation, both interceptors and the brother captain. Everything else in reserve. I try to deploy with everything out of LOS if I can. I can use Astral aim on a dread to still shoot out of Los.

When the beta strike comes I drop the other 7 units, shunt up the two interceptors and gate a purgation squad. That puts 10 units surrounding the enemy.

T7 I can focus down through shooting or assault. T8 gives me trouble so that is why I have halberds. Halberds plus Hammerhand give me a chance to take down T8. The dreads help also, but I have found lascannons and missiles to be unreliable. To big a swing on their damage tables. Halberds make a nice backup.

The smites really begin to take their toll on the enemy. The brother captain gives my firebase 24" range smites so when the beta strike comes down the firebase can start to move out and provide more damage.

Against hordes I have sent a lone purgation squad up and/or a 5 man strike to clear a path for the beta strike on turn 1, then come in on turn 2-3 if needed.

It's not a perfect list, but it's fun, unpredictable and good in maelstrom.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/25 16:29:11


Post by: Kaptain O


DarthDiggler wrote:

T7 I can focus down through shooting or assault. T8 gives me trouble so that is why I have halberds. Halberds plus Hammerhand give me a chance to take down T8.


Halberds+Hammerhand vs T8 with 3+ Save is ~4.89 wounds per 10 man squad.
Falchions+Hammerhand vs T8 with 3+ Save is ~6.22 wounds per 10 man squad.

Now granted, vs T8/3+ without Hammerhand full Halberds are *slightly* better than full Falchions (~3.26 vs ~3.11) but that's only due to the Justicar so if that difference bothers you give the Justicar a Halberd and the other dudes Falchions. Against T8/3+ that squad will do ~3.26 without Hammerhand (same as full Halberds) and ~6.22 with Hammerhand (same as Full Falchions), the best of both worlds!

As an added bonus they'll perform better than full Halberds against everything else also.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/25 16:33:31


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Just a random thought, but how much more balanced would Falchions be if they were AP-1 instead of 2?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/25 19:41:24


Post by: Quickjager


They'd be kinda trash then. I'd just use halberds because we actually do need the ap to be even mildly threatening in melee.

what you're proposing is a stormbolter in melee essentially.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/25 20:29:41


Post by: Homeskillet


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Just a random thought, but how much more balanced would Falchions be if they were AP-1 instead of 2?


Yeah the balance between the Nemesis weapons is pretty good right now. Swords are mathematically still the worst, but aren't garbage. I run a squad of Falchions and a squad of Halberds. I'd run both as Falchions but the ability to crack a Knight open with my basic troops is too good. Halberds with Hammerhand do a lot of work against T8, particularly if they're close enough to a GM for that re-roll, and/or close to an Ancient for an extra attack.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/25 21:06:46


Post by: RobHampster


I just had a 1000pt against a Khorne mostly Daemon army. I thought it would be a cake walk but it was very close. I finished deployment first but he seized the initiative. My stormraven then nearly went down with my doomglaive and a squad of PAGKs still inside. The Paladins were a massive save took down his warlord and another big daemon in cc taking out some more wounds with SBs and smite but eventually went down in blaze of glory. Stormraven was naff after it was crippled it eventually whimpered and died in the endgame. Doomglaive took down one Daemon with support from GMNDK but then got done by a defiler. Heroic intervention by the GMNDK destroyed that defiler though. The Purifiers were fairly pants, rolled ones for every successful purifying flame though they did basically eliminate a unit of bikes with SBs. As usual the GMNDK was an absolute hero, took down several big daemons and survived all 6 turns along with the purifiers and two enemy bikes.

Very fun but my GK list doesn't do too well when it loses the initiative.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/25 22:23:44


Post by: Waaaghpower


Falchions are easily the best on 1 attack models (against anything with T8 or lower,) thanks to volume-of-attacks being doubled. On 2 attack models, Falchions level off pretty well with the other choices, (With Halberds doing slightly better against T5 or T8+ and 3+/2+ models, and Falchions doing better against T4 or lower and T6-7,) and on 3 attack models like Paladins, you're better off with a Halberd in most situations, with Falchions getting an edge only against stuff with T6-7 (thanks to the dumb way that the to-wound chart works now).


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/26 14:40:19


Post by: Mandragola


Waaaghpower wrote:
Falchions are easily the best on 1 attack models (against anything with T8 or lower,) thanks to volume-of-attacks being doubled. On 2 attack models, Falchions level off pretty well with the other choices, (With Halberds doing slightly better against T5 or T8+ and 3+/2+ models, and Falchions doing better against T4 or lower and T6-7,) and on 3 attack models like Paladins, you're better off with a Halberd in most situations, with Falchions getting an edge only against stuff with T6-7 (thanks to the dumb way that the to-wound chart works now).


This is my view too. Anyone in power armour is better off with falchions and trying to cast hammerhand - though note that of course you can only do this once in matched play. That should be ok though unless your opponent's army is somehow all T8.

3 attacks is where having a halberd starts to look like a better option than just having the 4th swing. Even then the halberd is only better against T4, 5, 8 and 9 - though this does account for a lot of stuff. And give a hammer to the Paragon.

Speaking of hammers, It seems to me that they are a terrible option for dreadknights. I fought a couple last night and they tend to miss a lot and not necessarily wound that well. 4+ to hit isn't reliable enough and S12 meant they needed 3s to wound my dreadnoughts. A Dreadknight looks like it ought to beat a contemptor in combat, and it costs quite a lot more (partly due to having far more firepower, to be fair) but it felt like my marines were better off.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/26 17:17:03


Post by: jeffersonian000


 Nithaniel wrote:
I'm still having trouble against Hemlock WF's. Any benefit in running a Stormhawk?

The benefits to Stormhawks are that they are cheap, super hard to hurt, and very killy versus other flyers. The downsides are a lack of hover mode and its barely average versus infantry.

SJ


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/26 19:03:01


Post by: sadhvikv


Waaaghpower wrote:
Falchions are easily the best on 1 attack models (against anything with T8 or lower,) thanks to volume-of-attacks being doubled. On 2 attack models, Falchions level off pretty well with the other choices, (With Halberds doing slightly better against T5 or T8+ and 3+/2+ models, and Falchions doing better against T4 or lower and T6-7,) and on 3 attack models like Paladins, you're better off with a Halberd in most situations, with Falchions getting an edge only against stuff with T6-7 (thanks to the dumb way that the to-wound chart works now).


I'm trying to do the maths on whether falchions or halberds are better on Paladins, and I'm not getting to the same conclusion as you, can you check if I'm doing something wrong here?

3 attacks, hitting on 3's

Against T3
Falchions-> 1.724 wounds
Halberds-> 1.3068 wounds

Against T4
Falchions -> 1.32 wounds
Halberd->1.3068 wounds

Against T5
Falchions -> 0.8712 wounds
Halberds -> 0.99 wounds

Against T6
Falchions -> 0.8712 wounds
Halberds -> 0.6534 wounds

As far as I can see only T5 is in favour of halberds, that's why I opted for falchions on my Paladins, but I'm a bit confused now that 2 of you have commented halberds are generally the better choice on 3 attack models, have I worked this out wrong?

With hammerhand, Falchions are better against everything with Paladins.

Against T3
Falchions-> 2.19 wounds
Halberd-> 1.6434 wounds

Against T4
Falchions-> 1.7424 wounds
Halberds-> 1.6434 wounds

Against T5
Falchions-> 1.32 wounds
Halberds -> 1.3068 wounds

Against T6
Falchions-> 1.32 wounds
Halberds-> 0.99 wounds

Against T7
Falchions -> 1.32 wounds
Halberds-> 0.99 wounds



8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/26 20:00:01


Post by: Audustum


Your math matches what I've seen of other math on the issue so I'll vouch for it


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/27 03:21:42


Post by: Waaaghpower


sadhvikv wrote:
Waaaghpower wrote:
Falchions are easily the best on 1 attack models (against anything with T8 or lower,) thanks to volume-of-attacks being doubled. On 2 attack models, Falchions level off pretty well with the other choices, (With Halberds doing slightly better against T5 or T8+ and 3+/2+ models, and Falchions doing better against T4 or lower and T6-7,) and on 3 attack models like Paladins, you're better off with a Halberd in most situations, with Falchions getting an edge only against stuff with T6-7 (thanks to the dumb way that the to-wound chart works now).


I'm trying to do the maths on whether falchions or halberds are better on Paladins, and I'm not getting to the same conclusion as you, can you check if I'm doing something wrong here?

3 attacks, hitting on 3's

Against T3
Falchions-> 1.724 wounds
Halberds-> 1.3068 wounds

Against T4
Falchions -> 1.32 wounds
Halberd->1.3068 wounds

Against T5
Falchions -> 0.8712 wounds
Halberds -> 0.99 wounds

Against T6
Falchions -> 0.8712 wounds
Halberds -> 0.6534 wounds

As far as I can see only T5 is in favour of halberds, that's why I opted for falchions on my Paladins, but I'm a bit confused now that 2 of you have commented halberds are generally the better choice on 3 attack models, have I worked this out wrong?

With hammerhand, Falchions are better against everything with Paladins.

Against T3
Falchions-> 2.19 wounds
Halberd-> 1.6434 wounds

Against T4
Falchions-> 1.7424 wounds
Halberds-> 1.6434 wounds

Against T5
Falchions-> 1.32 wounds
Halberds -> 1.3068 wounds

Against T6
Falchions-> 1.32 wounds
Halberds-> 0.99 wounds

Against T7
Falchions -> 1.32 wounds
Halberds-> 0.99 wounds


I... Derped out and thought that Halberds were AP-3. Whoops.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/27 07:49:22


Post by: Sinji


Nithaniel wrote:Any tips on how best to deal with T7 vehicles?

I went up against a triple wave serpent list and a hemlock yesterday. I had very little answer for it as he was advancing the serpents giving me -1 to hit them and moving and firing psycannons is at -1 as well. I was relying on gating and charging but once the GMDK got focus fired into oblivion I was failing 9" charges all game.


Our Flyers are our best anti-tank. The Storm Raven can take the Multi-Melta & Lascannon option and also comes with the Missiles.

The Stormhawk is also a great option as it hits most things on a 4+ and packs 2 shots with its Las-talon which is basiclly a short ranged Lascannon. It can also take the Skyhammer Missile Launcher which has 3 shots that hits flyers on a 3+ and does D3 damage per wound. It adds a lot that we are missing.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/27 09:59:13


Post by: Mandragola


 Sinji wrote:
Nithaniel wrote:Any tips on how best to deal with T7 vehicles?

I went up against a triple wave serpent list and a hemlock yesterday. I had very little answer for it as he was advancing the serpents giving me -1 to hit them and moving and firing psycannons is at -1 as well. I was relying on gating and charging but once the GMDK got focus fired into oblivion I was failing 9" charges all game.


Our Flyers are our best anti-tank. The Storm Raven can take the Multi-Melta & Lascannon option and also comes with the Missiles.

The Stormhawk is also a great option as it hits most things on a 4+ and packs 2 shots with its Las-talon which is basiclly a short ranged Lascannon. It can also take the Skyhammer Missile Launcher which has 3 shots that hits flyers on a 3+ and does D3 damage per wound. It adds a lot that we are missing.

I'm not sure why you would get -1 to hit a wave serpent that advanced. That's not normally the case, and I can't see anything about it in the wave serpent's rules. There are some eldar skimmers with a built in -1 to hit, but wave serpents aren't them.

Stormhawks actually get +1 to hit anything that can fly. If using the icarus stormcannon or the skyhammer missiles, they hit things that can fly but are not hard to hit on a 2+. The downside is that they hit other units on a 4+, as all their guns are heavy and they have to move every turn. Still, quite a lot of things fly and the stormhawk is a reasonably tough, cheap platform with a lot of guns on it.

I think probably the best armament for it is the las talon and skyhammer missiles. The icarus and the skyhammer are basically identical, but the las talon is the most powerful weapon it can have, by some distance. You could potentially upgrade the skyhammers to a typhoon, but that adds a lot to the price.

The other good thing about flyers for GKs is that they are happy to deploy on the board. Just about everything else would sooner deep strike. So by having a plane or two, and maybe even a flyer wing for a CP, you are putting some pretty resilient, shooty units down. The downside is that you auto-lose if you only have flyers in play at the end of a turn and they won't be scoring units once chapter approved comes out.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/27 20:34:00


Post by: Marmatag


Mandragola wrote:

The other good thing about flyers for GKs is that they are happy to deploy on the board. Just about everything else would sooner deep strike. So by having a plane or two, and maybe even a flyer wing for a CP, you are putting some pretty resilient, shooty units down.


Just want to point out, not trying to nitpick, but when you're adding up units on the board and units in deep strike, flying units count as units in deep strike (reserves) because they're not boots on the ground (for the purposes of doing math).

So if you have 3 flying units on the table, you need at least 3 squads on the board physically. And at that point, for every unit in deep strike, you need another on the table.

Meaning, the more flyers you bring, the less you actually deep strike.

Models embarked inside flyers can make a decent beta strike, but you don't have deep strike Alpha with flyers.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/27 21:45:48


Post by: Mandragola


 Marmatag wrote:
Mandragola wrote:

The other good thing about flyers for GKs is that they are happy to deploy on the board. Just about everything else would sooner deep strike. So by having a plane or two, and maybe even a flyer wing for a CP, you are putting some pretty resilient, shooty units down.


Just want to point out, not trying to nitpick, but when you're adding up units on the board and units in deep strike, flying units count as units in deep strike (reserves) because they're not boots on the ground (for the purposes of doing math).

Really? Can you provide a source for that?

My understanding is that flyers are deployed normally on the table at the start of the game, and each one counts as a unit set up. The only rules I'm aware of additionally for flyers affect losing by sudden death - which is an entirely separate issue - and that they won't be able to score once the matched play rules are revised.

I can see that if you were somehow holding a flyer in reserve, then of course it wouldn't count as one of your deployed units. But that isn't normally the case.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/27 23:11:29


Post by: sadhvikv


 Marmatag wrote:
Mandragola wrote:

The other good thing about flyers for GKs is that they are happy to deploy on the board. Just about everything else would sooner deep strike. So by having a plane or two, and maybe even a flyer wing for a CP, you are putting some pretty resilient, shooty units down.


Just want to point out, not trying to nitpick, but when you're adding up units on the board and units in deep strike, flying units count as units in deep strike (reserves) because they're not boots on the ground (for the purposes of doing math).

So if you have 3 flying units on the table, you need at least 3 squads on the board physically. And at that point, for every unit in deep strike, you need another on the table.

Meaning, the more flyers you bring, the less you actually deep strike.

Models embarked inside flyers can make a decent beta strike, but you don't have deep strike Alpha with flyers.


I can't find any reference to this rule? Will massively affect the way I play, so please can you point me in the direction of where this is mentioned?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/27 23:39:34


Post by: Spartacus


sadhvikv wrote:


I can't find any reference to this rule? Will massively affect the way I play, so please can you point me in the direction of where this is mentioned?


There is nothing in the rules which states this. I had someone try to argue this during a game last week and they were unable to justify anything once we read into it. Even the proposed changes which will be coming soon do not interact with the reserve/reinforcement rules in any way as far as we know.

Could all change once we get the new matched play rules from chapter approved, but I doubt it.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/27 23:53:31


Post by: Matt.Kingsley


As far as I can tell there is no rule (or errata'd rule) that states what @Marmatag is saying, however do remember than if you end the turn with nothing but Flyers on the board you lose because of Sudden Death (from the main rules FaQ/Errata).


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/28 01:03:01


Post by: luke1705


 Marmatag wrote:
Mandragola wrote:

The other good thing about flyers for GKs is that they are happy to deploy on the board. Just about everything else would sooner deep strike. So by having a plane or two, and maybe even a flyer wing for a CP, you are putting some pretty resilient, shooty units down.


Just want to point out, not trying to nitpick, but when you're adding up units on the board and units in deep strike, flying units count as units in deep strike (reserves) because they're not boots on the ground (for the purposes of doing math).

So if you have 3 flying units on the table, you need at least 3 squads on the board physically. And at that point, for every unit in deep strike, you need another on the table.

Meaning, the more flyers you bring, the less you actually deep strike.

Models embarked inside flyers can make a decent beta strike, but you don't have deep strike Alpha with flyers.


This does not work the way you're describing


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/28 01:32:15


Post by: jeffersonian000


Does a Flyer in hover mode count as on the table? Stormhawks can't hover.

SJ


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/28 04:04:55


Post by: Spartacus


Of course it does, it counts as on the table even if it is not hovering.

The FAQ for the core rulebook includes errata stating that anything with the flyer battlefield role no longer counts as a unit on the table for purposes of sudden death.

Additionally, the new rule in chapter approved (which is not yet out by the way, we've only been given a preview) is called 'Boots on the ground' and prevents any unit with the flyer battlefield role from claiming objectives.

Neither of those say anything about reserves or reinforcements and frankly I'm not sure why everyone is getting confused.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/28 11:49:48


Post by: Mandragola


Ok good to clear that one up then.

So yeah. I continue to think that flyers are a good option for GKs because they are happy to deploy.

They also make really good bubble wrap for any other units you might have. They can't be charged, which messes up the plans of anyone who wants to deep strike in and attack.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/28 17:19:34


Post by: RobHampster


Do units inside flyer (and other transports) count as being on the board? For example, If I have Dreadnought and PAGKs in a stormraven on the board, I can deepstrike three units right?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/28 17:42:38


Post by: Xenomancers


RobHampster wrote:
Do units inside flyer (and other transports) count as being on the board? For example, If I have Dreadnought and PAGKs in a stormraven on the board, I can deepstrike three units right?
No - units in transports do not count as a deployment drop - nor do they count as being on the table. This would count as one drop.

They can however - hide behind something under the raven and embark in the raven turn 1.This is what I try to use my raven to do. Strikes are really effective to use like this because 10 strike squad marines getting into CC turn 2 is pretty devastating.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/29 03:53:54


Post by: TzeentchMensch


 Xenomancers wrote:
RobHampster wrote:
Do units inside flyer (and other transports) count as being on the board? For example, If I have Dreadnought and PAGKs in a stormraven on the board, I can deepstrike three units right?
No - units in transports do not count as a deployment drop - nor do they count as being on the table. This would count as one drop.

They can however - hide behind something under the raven and embark in the raven turn 1.This is what I try to use my raven to do. Strikes are really effective to use like this because 10 strike squad marines getting into CC turn 2 is pretty devastating.


This is mostly incorrect. RobHamster is right.

The two units embarked in the Stormraven, + the Stormraven itself count towards the 50% of units that must be deployed on the table.

You are right in that all three units count as 1 drop for deployment purposes.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/29 08:00:39


Post by: Nithaniel


Mandragola wrote:

I'm not sure why you would get -1 to hit a wave serpent that advanced. That's not normally the case, and I can't see anything about it in the wave serpent's rules. There are some eldar skimmers with a built in -1 to hit, but wave serpents aren't them.


He had the vectored engines upgrade that means opponents subtract 1 from hit rolls for ranged attacks that target it if it advanced.

It's an expensive upgrade but we were playing Power levels so...


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/29 10:46:51


Post by: Mandragola


 Nithaniel wrote:
Mandragola wrote:

I'm not sure why you would get -1 to hit a wave serpent that advanced. That's not normally the case, and I can't see anything about it in the wave serpent's rules. There are some eldar skimmers with a built in -1 to hit, but wave serpents aren't them.


He had the vectored engines upgrade that means opponents subtract 1 from hit rolls for ranged attacks that target it if it advanced.

It's an expensive upgrade but we were playing Power levels so...

That'll do it. I'm not a fan of power levels myself, mainly because I'd need two versions of all my units - one for PL and one for matched play.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/29 16:52:28


Post by: greyknight12


Has anyone experimented with using guilliman for his +1 charge bubble on an alpha strike? With an 8" move, D6+1 advance and a 12" bubble he can project his aura a minimum of 22" (before any rerolls) out from your deployment zone, meaning that you'll get the benefit on first turn 9" charges as long as your opponent is 31" or less from your deployment zone. Add in a GK warlord with FTTF and you now have a 66% chance of making the charge vs. 47% with GK alone (if my math is correct).
Downsides are that I hate primarchs (for fluff reasons) and for basically the same points you can get 3 5-man interceptor squads, which depending on what else you drop may result in an equivalent number of first turn charges and gives you more deepstrike slots as well.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/29 17:23:27


Post by: jeffersonian000


Guilliman is functionally a fancy HQ Dreadnought. No reason why you can't use him as such.

SJ


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/29 21:39:08


Post by: Spartacus


Guilliman is quite undercosted just based on his combat prowess. That's before you start considering the army buffs he gives. Any army list he is included in is objectively better than one without him.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/30 07:10:23


Post by: Godeskian


 greyknight12 wrote:
Has anyone experimented with using guilliman for his +1 charge bubble on an alpha strike? With an 8" move, D6+1 advance and a 12" bubble he can project his aura a minimum of 22" (before any rerolls) out from your deployment zone, meaning that you'll get the benefit on first turn 9" charges as long as your opponent is 31" or less from your deployment zone. Add in a GK warlord with FTTF and you now have a 66% chance of making the charge vs. 47% with GK alone (if my math is correct).
Downsides are that I hate primarchs (for fluff reasons) and for basically the same points you can get 3 5-man interceptor squads, which depending on what else you drop may result in an equivalent number of first turn charges and gives you more deepstrike slots as well.


If you want to make it even nastier, consider that only one model from a unit has to be in range of Guilleman's aura. A five man paladin squad stretched out in a line covers, what, close to 15 inches? And as long as the front model can get into cc, you've accomplished your goal, do its closer to 45'' from your deployment zone


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/30 17:53:24


Post by: Waaaghpower


I've played two games including some amount of Grey Knights now, and I have to say, I'm extremely underwhelmed.
To be fair, both games I've had pretty bad Psychic phases on turn one, but that's kind of part of the problem - They NEED to have a really good psychic phase, and if they don't, you've got an army that does shooting worse than just about everyone and does melee only marginally above average.
The only thing that they've done reasonably well is tank damage, but as far as I'm concerned, being able to kill things is vastly more important than being able to not be killed, at least past turn 1.

The only shooting that actually seems to leave a dent in my opponent is the GMDK souped up with Psybolt Ammo (or whatever it's called for Heavy Weapons,) but that ability burns through command points really quickly, just to get his shooting up to a basic level of competence. In my opinion, you shouldn't have to spend 300 points on a model, and then also burn two Command Points every turn, just to get a reasonable amount of shooting out of Grey Knights.

If I need something outside of Stormbolter shots (and Stormbolter equivalents from Psilencers, who have better Damage which is meaningless against most targets who have multiple wounds, since most multi-wound targets are also high Toughness or have a good save, or both,) it seems like I'm SOL.
Thoughts?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/30 18:18:47


Post by: Xenomancers


Waaaghpower wrote:
I've played two games including some amount of Grey Knights now, and I have to say, I'm extremely underwhelmed.
To be fair, both games I've had pretty bad Psychic phases on turn one, but that's kind of part of the problem - They NEED to have a really good psychic phase, and if they don't, you've got an army that does shooting worse than just about everyone and does melee only marginally above average.
The only thing that they've done reasonably well is tank damage, but as far as I'm concerned, being able to kill things is vastly more important than being able to not be killed, at least past turn 1.

The only shooting that actually seems to leave a dent in my opponent is the GMDK souped up with Psybolt Ammo (or whatever it's called for Heavy Weapons,) but that ability burns through command points really quickly, just to get his shooting up to a basic level of competence. In my opinion, you shouldn't have to spend 300 points on a model, and then also burn two Command Points every turn, just to get a reasonable amount of shooting out of Grey Knights.

If I need something outside of Stormbolter shots (and Stormbolter equivalents from Psilencers, who have better Damage which is meaningless against most targets who have multiple wounds, since most multi-wound targets are also high Toughness or have a good save, or both,) it seems like I'm SOL.
Thoughts?

GK have 3 units worth taking
GMDK
Strike squads (and interceptors)
Storm Ravens

everything else is overpriced considerably. All of our stratagems are overpriced too. Basically all the 2's should be 1's - considering GK are expensive AF and are going to have less command points to begin with.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/30 20:48:27


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 Xenomancers wrote:
Waaaghpower wrote:
I've played two games including some amount of Grey Knights now, and I have to say, I'm extremely underwhelmed.
To be fair, both games I've had pretty bad Psychic phases on turn one, but that's kind of part of the problem - They NEED to have a really good psychic phase, and if they don't, you've got an army that does shooting worse than just about everyone and does melee only marginally above average.
The only thing that they've done reasonably well is tank damage, but as far as I'm concerned, being able to kill things is vastly more important than being able to not be killed, at least past turn 1.

The only shooting that actually seems to leave a dent in my opponent is the GMDK souped up with Psybolt Ammo (or whatever it's called for Heavy Weapons,) but that ability burns through command points really quickly, just to get his shooting up to a basic level of competence. In my opinion, you shouldn't have to spend 300 points on a model, and then also burn two Command Points every turn, just to get a reasonable amount of shooting out of Grey Knights.

If I need something outside of Stormbolter shots (and Stormbolter equivalents from Psilencers, who have better Damage which is meaningless against most targets who have multiple wounds, since most multi-wound targets are also high Toughness or have a good save, or both,) it seems like I'm SOL.
Thoughts?

GK have 3 units worth taking
GMDK
Strike squads (and interceptors)
Storm Ravens

everything else is overpriced considerably. All of our stratagems are overpriced too. Basically all the 2's should be 1's - considering GK are expensive AF and are going to have less command points to begin with.

I think Paladins are worth it but that's just how I feel.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/30 21:42:26


Post by: Elric Greywolf


Waaaghpower wrote:
an army that does shooting worse than just about everyone

The only shooting that actually seems to leave a dent in my opponent is the GMDK souped up with Psybolt Ammo (or whatever it's called for Heavy Weapons,) but that ability burns through command points really quickly, just to get his shooting up to a basic level of competence. In my opinion, you shouldn't have to spend 300 points on a model, and then also burn two Command Points every turn, just to get a reasonable amount of shooting out of Grey Knights.


I don't know how you can think this. GK has been a solid gunline army for the last three codices. We have SBs to take down hordes, and melee to take down elites. Correct target priority is the only way to win with GK, and mistakes (even small ones) cost games. I spend a LOT of time figuring out how my Ravens and Purgators will shoot, probably too much. I spend more time there than I do in the psychic phase!

Since 8e dropped I haven't fought any IKs yet, so I'm unsure how I'd do now (and this was in 7e my weakest matchup), but I feel better about it than I did before, knowing I'll at least be able to ding the thing.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/30 22:33:29


Post by: RobHampster


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Waaaghpower wrote:
I've played two games including some amount of Grey Knights now, and I have to say, I'm extremely underwhelmed.
To be fair, both games I've had pretty bad Psychic phases on turn one, but that's kind of part of the problem - They NEED to have a really good psychic phase, and if they don't, you've got an army that does shooting worse than just about everyone and does melee only marginally above average.
The only thing that they've done reasonably well is tank damage, but as far as I'm concerned, being able to kill things is vastly more important than being able to not be killed, at least past turn 1.

The only shooting that actually seems to leave a dent in my opponent is the GMDK souped up with Psybolt Ammo (or whatever it's called for Heavy Weapons,) but that ability burns through command points really quickly, just to get his shooting up to a basic level of competence. In my opinion, you shouldn't have to spend 300 points on a model, and then also burn two Command Points every turn, just to get a reasonable amount of shooting out of Grey Knights.

If I need something outside of Stormbolter shots (and Stormbolter equivalents from Psilencers, who have better Damage which is meaningless against most targets who have multiple wounds, since most multi-wound targets are also high Toughness or have a good save, or both,) it seems like I'm SOL.
Thoughts?

GK have 3 units worth taking
GMDK
Strike squads (and interceptors)
Storm Ravens

everything else is overpriced considerably. All of our stratagems are overpriced too. Basically all the 2's should be 1's - considering GK are expensive AF and are going to have less command points to begin with.

I think Paladins are worth it but that's just how I feel.


I think there is a lot of strength in the alpha strike. Significant fist mover advantage can be gained with effective grouping for auras and rerolls and target priority. Given that GKs are highly likely to be able to move first, this is probably the only way to even up against some army's. At some points levels, lists are hard to design for effective alpha strikes. Personally, I've played 1000pt alpha strike with Paladins and a GM Dreadknight followed by a beta strike with purifiers and a doomglaive from my stormraven all concentrated for rerolls and allowing elimination of a couple of high priority targets through psychic,shooting and melee damage combined. If the alpha strike goes quite badly or you lose the initiative you are highly likely to lose


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/31 05:38:08


Post by: Waaaghpower


 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Waaaghpower wrote:
an army that does shooting worse than just about everyone

The only shooting that actually seems to leave a dent in my opponent is the GMDK souped up with Psybolt Ammo (or whatever it's called for Heavy Weapons,) but that ability burns through command points really quickly, just to get his shooting up to a basic level of competence. In my opinion, you shouldn't have to spend 300 points on a model, and then also burn two Command Points every turn, just to get a reasonable amount of shooting out of Grey Knights.


I don't know how you can think this. GK has been a solid gunline army for the last three codices. We have SBs to take down hordes, and melee to take down elites. Correct target priority is the only way to win with GK, and mistakes (even small ones) cost games. I spend a LOT of time figuring out how my Ravens and Purgators will shoot, probably too much. I spend more time there than I do in the psychic phase!

Since 8e dropped I haven't fought any IKs yet, so I'm unsure how I'd do now (and this was in 7e my weakest matchup), but I feel better about it than I did before, knowing I'll at least be able to ding the thing.

We have SBs to take down hordes, sure, but you know where else I can get SBs?
From Dominions, for 12ppm.
GK might have been a solid gunline in previous codices, but they certainly aren't anymore.


I agree with the statement that there are only three or four good units in the codex. (Three, plus Paladins if you're feeling generous - They're still not good, but they are better by comparison than Terminators at any rate.)


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/31 14:26:50


Post by: Elric Greywolf


Waaaghpower wrote:
We have SBs to take down hordes, sure, but you know where else I can get SBs?
From Dominions, for 12ppm.
GK might have been a solid gunline in previous codices, but they certainly aren't anymore.


So go play SoB? This is GK tactics, not Imperial Soup. Although a list with Sisters as Troops, backed up by GMDKs and Ravens, might be interesting....

My most recent game was against a BA player with Razorspam. He had 6 untis of Scouts (all with missiles ofc), a Xiphon, and Dante+Priest+Lieutenant boxed in by 8 Assaultbacks and a Predator. THAT's a gunline. 96 S6 AP-1 rerolling all hits and wounds of 1. A Xiphon to murder my flyers, and missiles+Pred to back it up.
And I outshot him, which I'm very proud of.

We definitely have shooting, and the staying power to hold objectives, which Sisters, with their S3T3, do NOT have.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/31 14:28:18


Post by: Xenomancers


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Waaaghpower wrote:
I've played two games including some amount of Grey Knights now, and I have to say, I'm extremely underwhelmed.
To be fair, both games I've had pretty bad Psychic phases on turn one, but that's kind of part of the problem - They NEED to have a really good psychic phase, and if they don't, you've got an army that does shooting worse than just about everyone and does melee only marginally above average.
The only thing that they've done reasonably well is tank damage, but as far as I'm concerned, being able to kill things is vastly more important than being able to not be killed, at least past turn 1.

The only shooting that actually seems to leave a dent in my opponent is the GMDK souped up with Psybolt Ammo (or whatever it's called for Heavy Weapons,) but that ability burns through command points really quickly, just to get his shooting up to a basic level of competence. In my opinion, you shouldn't have to spend 300 points on a model, and then also burn two Command Points every turn, just to get a reasonable amount of shooting out of Grey Knights.

If I need something outside of Stormbolter shots (and Stormbolter equivalents from Psilencers, who have better Damage which is meaningless against most targets who have multiple wounds, since most multi-wound targets are also high Toughness or have a good save, or both,) it seems like I'm SOL.
Thoughts?

GK have 3 units worth taking
GMDK
Strike squads (and interceptors)
Storm Ravens

everything else is overpriced considerably. All of our stratagems are overpriced too. Basically all the 2's should be 1's - considering GK are expensive AF and are going to have less command points to begin with.

I think Paladins are worth it but that's just how I feel.

Paladins aren't bad. They are much better than terms. They just don't do enough damage for their points though IMO. They really need Sanctuary too - I'd much rather put that on a GMDK. you are right though - they are a viable choice. I overlook them because they just don't jive well with the rest of the army.

I think GK need to do significant shooting damage on their alpha to win games. Even with reroll charges from FTTF I'm not getting enough things into combat to justify taking a purely close combat oriented unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Waaaghpower wrote:
We have SBs to take down hordes, sure, but you know where else I can get SBs?
From Dominions, for 12ppm.
GK might have been a solid gunline in previous codices, but they certainly aren't anymore.


So go play SoB? This is GK tactics, not Imperial Soup. Although a list with Sisters as Troops, backed up by GMDKs and Ravens, might be interesting....

My most recent game was against a BA player with Razorspam. He had 6 untis of Scouts (all with missiles ofc), a Xiphon, and Dante+Priest+Lieutenant boxed in by 8 Assaultbacks and a Predator. THAT's a gunline. 96 S6 AP-1 rerolling all hits and wounds of 1. A Xiphon to murder my flyers, and missiles+Pred to back it up.
And I outshot him, which I'm very proud of.

We definitely have shooting, and the staying power to hold objectives, which Sisters, with their S3T3, do NOT have.

That's a pretty scary list. How did that battle go exactly and what did you bring?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/31 15:03:44


Post by: DarkOnes


Ok So I played my first game with the new codex. 2000 pts Grey Knights vs YNNARI.

Turn one:
Top: Grey Knights bounce off of the transports with everything in them. From shooting I managed to put one transport into a reduced profile. The Dreadknight into close combat with a wave serpent due to first to the fray warlord trait. So to summarize I did about 14 wounds to transports.
Bottom: Eldar deploy a dire Avenger Squad and fire dragon squad from each wave serpent. A soul bust physic power allows a squad of fire dragons to fire twice and kill the dead knight. The rest of the fire dragons and three squads of warp spiders kill one and a half squads of terminators. The dire avengers kill all the strikes that deep struck in. The scorpions assault one razorbacks, and the dreadnought.

By the end of turn two I had two grand masters with two wounds left and two terminators and one strike squad in my back field.Both of my razor backs were being assaulted by wave serpents along with the dreadnought. I had killed two squads in total. So we ended the game at the end of turn 2 when it became painfully apparent that I would be tabled in a turn or two at most. I'm very disappointed.

YNNARI force:
3 wave serpents with 3x Shuriken Cannons
3 x 5 Dire Avenger Squads.
3 x 5 Fire Dragon Squads with 1 Fire Pike.
1 x Yvraine
1 x Fuegan
3 x Warp Spider Squads
3 x Striking Scorpions.

Grey Knights:
2 x 5 Strike Squads with Psi-Cannon, 4 swords
1 x 5 Strike Squad 5 swords
2 x 5 man Terminator squads with 1 DH, 1 x Psi-Cannon, and 4 Halberds
1 x Venerable Dreadnought with 2x Twin Auto Cannons
2 x Razorbacks with twin lascannons and storm bolter.
1 x Dreadknight with Heavy Psi-Cannon and two doom fists
1 x Grandmaster with Daemon Hammer, and relic storm bolter.
1 x Grandmaster with relic Halberd and Psi-Cannon
1 x Techmarine




8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/31 15:09:46


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Waaaghpower wrote:
We have SBs to take down hordes, sure, but you know where else I can get SBs?
From Dominions, for 12ppm.
GK might have been a solid gunline in previous codices, but they certainly aren't anymore.


So go play SoB? This is GK tactics, not Imperial Soup. Although a list with Sisters as Troops, backed up by GMDKs and Ravens, might be interesting....

My most recent game was against a BA player with Razorspam. He had 6 untis of Scouts (all with missiles ofc), a Xiphon, and Dante+Priest+Lieutenant boxed in by 8 Assaultbacks and a Predator. THAT's a gunline. 96 S6 AP-1 rerolling all hits and wounds of 1. A Xiphon to murder my flyers, and missiles+Pred to back it up.
And I outshot him, which I'm very proud of.

We definitely have shooting, and the staying power to hold objectives, which Sisters, with their S3T3, do NOT have.

A SoB is much more durable for the points than our cheapest infantry unit. You're blind for completely deciding otherwise.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/31 15:20:59


Post by: Marmatag


Sisters of Battle are good for filling out a secondary battalion due to points restrictions, but I wouldn't drop any PAGK from your base plan to bring them in. If I was going to do that, it would MAYBE be with a Repressor and 4x Melta Dominion squad. But that again is expensive (for points-strapped GK), over 200 points, which is points I don't really have. In the grand scheme of things this is stupid cheap for what you get, but we're Grey Knights players.

Another thought:

has anyone considered Tarantula sentry guns? we need cheap DS denial, and these could be pretty handy. What do you think?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
DarkOnes wrote:

Grey Knights:
2 x 5 Strike Squads with Psi-Cannon, 4 swords
1 x 5 Strike Squad 5 swords
2 x 5 man Terminator squads with 1 DH, 1 x Psi-Cannon, and 4 Halberds
1 x Venerable Dreadnought with 2x Twin Auto Cannons
2 x Razorbacks with twin lascannons and storm bolter.
1 x Dreadknight with Heavy Psi-Cannon and two doom fists
1 x Grandmaster with Daemon Hammer, and relic storm bolter.
1 x Grandmaster with relic Halberd and Psi-Cannon
1 x Techmarine


Hi i'm going to share my thoughts on this list. I play in tournaments against meta factions like Ynnari/Eldar, Tau, AM, etc.

For your Strike Squads: Drop the psycannons, they're just plain bad for their points. It looks like you included 2 of them here, which is some points back. Secondly, proxy your swords as falchions, or halberds. -3AP rarely comes up because most anything worth hitting will have a 4++, or 5++. You're trading attacks for -1ap, or trading +1 strength for -1ap. Neither is a good tradeoff in 8th edition.

This right here gives you the 3 troops you need to create a battalion. So, you can drop the terminators completely. If you want to run a gun on 1 out of 5 on your strikes, do it with Psilencers, or incinerators. Either gun has a use case.

Lazorbacks don't work well for us. They're a points efficient lascannon platform in a long range shooting army, which we aren't. It looks like you're trying to have some long range shooting, but what ends up happening is that armies with guns will out-range you, and assault armies will tie up these and your dreadnought as soon as possible. If you are going to use razorbacks, use them as transports, with assault cannons. I would drop the Dreadnought entirely, or use a doomglaive dreadnought, and pay 1 command point to put him in the Teleportarium (one of our better stratagems).

There is no reason to bring an nemesis dreadknight and two grand masters. Drop one grand master and upgrade your nemesis dreadknight to a GMNDK. Give him the Gatling Psilencer and the Heavy Psycannon. He's a gun platform beast. You can put the GMNDK in reserve, too. Give him first to the fray, coupled with your teleportarium dreadnought that would be dangerous.

This should get you some points back. The core idea I play grey knights with is that you want to travel as a unified force. Splitting your force in half is a recipe for disaster, because an opponent will identify which half of your army poses the greater threat and eliminate that.

With the extra points you do have some options. For your second HQ, another grand master is redundant. I would encourage you to consider Voldus, or Draigo, they're our 2 best HQs for a few reasons. Voldus knows 3 powers, and is a monster in CC. Draigo knows 2, but is a bigger monster in CC and is more survivable, he also acts as a true force multiplier in rerolling all misses as opposed to just 1s. But he is more expensive.

I would also suggest more bodies. A purgation squad, for instance, might be a useful include. A gatling psilencer squad placed in the right spot can be throwing out 28 dice per turn. As an example. Since you're already paying the troop tax, if you want to bring terminator armor, do it in the form of Paladins. if you want terminators, you should drop a strike squad so you have the minimum 3 troops for the battalion.

Hope this helps.

How i would start the restructure:

Grey Knights:
3 x 5 Strike Squads, all with Falchions / Halberds, maybe 1x incinerator per squad
1 x Doomglaive Dreadnought, or close range dreadnought
2 x Razorbacks with twin Assault cannons and storm bolter.
1 x Grand Master Nemesis Dreadknight with Heavy Psi-Cannon, Gatling Psilencer, and two doom fists
1 x Voldus

This should leave you like 800 points to spend.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/31 15:45:52


Post by: Mandragola


I do think that there's a pretty strong case for fielding two detachments; one of GKs to deep strike in and one of something else to deploy on the ground.

This is because none of the good GK units (apart from flyers) want to set up on the board. But other stuff is happy to.

The other problem with a full 2k list of GKs is that you quickly run out of psychic powers to cast. As soon as you've got 7 units (or less if some people can cast more than one power) you have a problem. You can still smite of course, but it's not as strong as the proper powers - unless you're fighting daemons.

Sisters would be a very valid option. You've got Celestine, who can join in your turn 1 zerg. So can dominions, in whatever transport. Battle sisters and dominions make far better objective-sitters than anything in the GK codex.

It's actually quite straightforward to fit in two battalions in a 2k list. You get a bunch of extra CPs that you can spend on stuff like powering up your grand master DK's guns.

Sisters also suffer from diminishing returns a bit, with acts of faith. They get to do one per turn across the army, regardless of how many of them there are - plus potentially some extra ones from Celestine and imagifers.

A weakness of the combo is that both sisters and GKs tend to emit the same kind of firepower - lots of S4 shooting. Arguably, a better complement for GKs would be somebody packing a bunch of lascannons or plasma. This can be found in the imperial guard army list.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/31 15:48:59


Post by: Marmatag


Imperial Guard is the go-to, but you're largely immobile with that section of your force. Celestine is a must include for GK IMHO.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/08/31 22:19:21


Post by: greyknight12


If you have elite slots to burn you could always throw in a few units of servitors if you want to stay pure GK and maximize your reserve potential. Unfortunately as soon as you give them weapons to make them more useful they end up costing almost as much as strikes.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/09/01 18:50:13


Post by: DarkOnes


Thanks for the updates.

So take a GMDK. If you must bring a second GM take Voldus.

If we don't bring long range fire power how are you guys dealing with vehicles? If we manage to assault them I'd suspect that they would just fall back leaving that unit exposed.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/09/01 19:19:28


Post by: daedalus


DarkOnes wrote:

If we don't bring long range fire power how are you guys dealing with vehicles? If we manage to assault them I'd suspect that they would just fall back leaving that unit exposed.


I know you're not here for my opinion, but I'll open my mouth anyway. My mathhammer puts lascannon razorbacks as the most effective antitank gk have for the points. The survivability is the fundamental issue.

In melee, 5 strikes with falchions have a 54% chance of doing a non-zero number of total damage, and it drops off fast:
Spoiler:

A: 10 S: 4 AP: -2 D: d3 @ BS or WS: 3+
vs T: 8 sv 3+
Damage Outcomes percent
0 4612 46.1%
1 1255 12.6%
2 1397 14.0%
3 1530 15.3%
4 508 5.1%
5 335 3.4%
6 244 2.4%
7 62 0.6%
8 32 0.3%
9 15 0.1%
10 4 0.0%
11 3 0.0%
12 2 0.0%
13 1 0.0%


Hammerhand improves that somewhat, but it's still not great:
Spoiler:

A: 10 S: 4 AP: -2 D: d3 @ BS or WS: 3+
vs T: 8 sv 3+
Damage Outcomes percent
0 4612 46.1%
1 1255 12.6%
2 1397 14.0%
3 1530 15.3%
4 508 5.1%
5 335 3.4%
6 244 2.4%
7 62 0.6%
8 32 0.3%
9 15 0.1%
10 4 0.0%
11 3 0.0%
12 2 0.0%
13 1 0.0%


Remember also that, while that looks disappointing, you'll nickle and dime more damage through smites and shooting, and if you assault the vehicle and it just falls back, at least it's not shooting (unless it's Eldar or something cheaty like that).

I've been thinking about the psilencers more based upon what Marmatag et al have been saying and I'm coming around to those being the way to go. Realistically, GK weapons are not great for anti-tank. With that in mind, the psycannon gets you about a 16.6-33.3% better chance to wound per shot (and -1 AP), while the psilencer gets you a 66% chance to do at least one more damage per wounding shot, and you get more shots, and it's significantly cheaper. It just feels like the way to go.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/09/01 20:44:54


Post by: Marmatag


I mean Grey Knights have weaknesses. ITC rankings-wise, it's a bottom tier faction.

You will run into lists that give you problems. Specifically, anything with high strength, high damage shooting, will hurt your defense, and anything with a lot of cheap bodies, and vehicles, will stymie your offense, by in large.

There is no panacea for some stuff out there, as Grey Knights. There are things you will not be able to deal with.

What you need to do is learn how to deploy and move such that you're pulling your opponent out of position. Imperial Guard are a hard-counter to us for this reason, they don't need to move, and they have a huge layer of unkillable bodies preventing us from getting close to their tanks, and we're certainly not killing them at range.

But know your weaknesses, and play to your strengths. This is not an easy army to play.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/09/01 21:36:13


Post by: Quickjager


Man now I wish there was a power that was essentially telekinesis where you were able to move enemy models out of the way. Like draw a 12 inch beam where all enemy models were moved 2 inches out of the way from the beam.

It would allow battlefield positioning to become more potent and psychic denial would become relevant so gunlines couldn't park their asses down.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/09/01 23:27:28


Post by: BladeWalker


Back after a long hiatus and a cross country move... have not even read 8th rules yet.

I have a Draigo, Libbie, 2x5 diversified Paladins, 2 Stormravens, 2 Psybolt Auto Dreads army that I love... is it viable in the new edition and meta at all?

Looking to hit up the new LGS and don't want to get steamrollered. Worth investing in books or just duck out and paint new stuff?

EDIT: Just busted out the army bags and remembered I have 2x10 Purifiers with Falchions and Psycannons as well. Seems my love of dual wield Falchions in the rule of cool paid off?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/09/02 00:20:08


Post by: Spartacus


 BladeWalker wrote:
Back after a long hiatus and a cross country move... have not even read 8th rules yet.

I have a Draigo, Libbie, 2x5 diversified Paladins, 2 Stormravens, 2 Psybolt Auto Dreads army that I love... is it viable in the new edition and meta at all?

Looking to hit up the new LGS and don't want to get steamrollered. Worth investing in books or just duck out and paint new stuff?

EDIT: Just busted out the army bags and remembered I have 2x10 Purifiers with Falchions and Psycannons as well. Seems my love of dual wield Falchions in the rule of cool paid off?


Draigo, Paladins, Stormravens and Falchions are strong, so you're pretty well set already. Purifiers took a hit I'd say, but can still work well from Stormravens.

Psycannons are a bit expensive now and have been dethroned by psilencers which cost peanuts, so if you're still able to swap them out on your models that's what I'd do.

The new core rules are free so you can read up on them at your leisure, then grab the new GK codex. GK are doing well because we are one of the few armies with a codex released at the moment, so probably a good time to learn. They are still unforgiving like they've always been but the playstyle is something you're probably already used to.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/09/02 16:50:28


Post by: DarthDiggler


DarkOnes wrote:
Thanks for the updates.

So take a GMDK. If you must bring a second GM take Voldus.

If we don't bring long range fire power how are you guys dealing with vehicles? If we manage to assault them I'd suspect that they would just fall back leaving that unit exposed.


I take a venerable Dreadnought with twin lascannon and missile launcher. I place it out of LOS and use astral aim to shoot anything I want. I bring a second one just in case I lose the first one.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/09/02 19:36:26


Post by: Spartacus


Going to be taking a Brotherhood Champ today, he actually seems like quite a good deal for only 115 points.

Anyone used him before and know of any good shenanigans? I'll try giving him the relic stormbolter as he hits on 2+.


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/09/05 11:10:20


Post by: greyknight12


We had a couple players with GK as primary do well at NOVA (Tyler Devries and Brad Townsend), anyone know what they were running?


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/09/05 23:43:13


Post by: Homeskillet


 Quickjager wrote:
Man now I wish there was a power that was essentially telekinesis where you were able to move enemy models out of the way. Like draw a 12 inch beam where all enemy models were moved 2 inches out of the way from the beam.

It would allow battlefield positioning to become more potent and psychic denial would become relevant so gunlines couldn't park their asses down.


That's a fun idea!


8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised) @ 2017/09/06 14:57:46


Post by: TheMostWize


My thoughts after my first game of 8th.

- Doomglaive Dreads are incredibly powerful especially in CC against other tough targets.
- Paladins with falchions are super reliable and durable.
- Draigo and Voldus are both exceptional HQs
- Smite is a game changer for them especially when demons are in the board.
- Psilencers are worth the extra 10 points on Paladins and rapid fire storm bolters are vicious.
- Apothecaries are tough to position to be of use for their skill. Might drop mine for an ancient instead.


Plan to add some scions for back field striking.