Quite possibly, but by the same logic he'd be better of dropping the entire army and playing demons or renegades and heretics. Horde armies are better than elite armies overall. Even if gors didn't exist rubrics are worse than cultists or various horror variants overall. You are describing an issue with the edition as a whole, ignoring that you actually have a solution to the problem in your own codex unlike many armies.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:


Trajan his name is Trajan

Dude, first off, proofread your stuff. Secondly, I didnt say most of what you're claiming, you have the wrong person. Thirdly:

"When people said "11 TS and 40 Tzaangors but you could do the opposite", no you can't Rubrics cost almost 3x Tzaangors with NO upgrades, but you parroted it because it made you right, that requires zero thought."

I know this? I'm arguing for this..... I dont want to play a Tzaangor army.

"You even said I was right once you just don't even it. When you mentioned bringing Horrors or Tzzangors, and dropping them infront of the enemy army, then mentioned dropping a unit of Rubrics."

I never said this. I never mentioned Horrors or deep striking units in front of the enemy.... Again, you got the wrong person.

As for bringing what, I dont know. I haven't played with the Tzaangors outside of their basics. I play a melee Thousand Sons list because my army evolved that way. I stopped building said army because I looked at it one day and found out I was using a minimum amount of models that actually made Thousand Sons special and was just playing a generic Chaos army list...

But for bringing the right stuff, at the end of the game, not including objectives, which army had what models left? Now I could have missed it, but it looked like to me the Custodes still had their land raider and some models left, and Thousand Sons had very little left.

Dude i'm not quoting you I'm quoting Caedares

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Dude i'm not quoting you I'm quoting Caedares

Lol well Jesus Christo.... these quotes are getting too long then.

When DG came out people were saying DG won't use Plague Marines anymore due to Poxwalkers being so cheap. Then PMs were reduced in points two times and are a viable choice now. I still don't get the premise of this thread saying Rubrics will stay overpriced foreva and because of that won't be used. We don't even know if they aren't reduced in the codex already.
Also what makes you think TS are now dead when their lists since 4th ed. usually were made of maximum 2x5 Rubric squads + lots of things that have nothing to do with TS. With the 6th. edition codex usually their other units weren't even using the MoT as a 6++ is trash and people rather used MoN because of a similar, but better effect. And after that period of 3 editions were Rubrics/ Tzeentch-CSM were one of the worst units in the game you are saying now they are dead? Now that they get their first proper codex, proper minis and fluff support?

It's also funny how this threads talks about TS being dead because of some long-time established Tzaangors in their list while the DG thread talks about DG lists using 10 tanks. Yes, a list of only 10 tanks for the legion that is established since at least 3rde ed. as the legion having hardly any tanks aside from some Rhinos and the odd Vindicator.
In both cases the answer is very easy: Play the list you like following the fluff you like about your army.

Also let's not mention the competetive scene in a thread like this because they will at the upper end bend all rules and disregard all fluff for a competive advantage. If you use that a measuring stick for "dead " than at any point in 40k 90-95% of the game is dead because it isn't usable. Right now cheap hordes are better than elites so Tzaangors will probably outperform TS in points efficiency, this is no different than any imperial tactica basicly saying just add AM.

 nintura wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Does that have anything to do with the fact that CthulusSpy proved you wrong?

Proved wrong how? Please tell me. Because the original reason was having more tzaangors than thousand sons marines. 4 kits vs 3. And not getting any new thousand sons marines units. In the game, there were 1 Rubric squad, 1 SoT. Yet tons of Tzaangors. Yes, it's a show case, but see the first half of this statement.

Because of the goalposts you're moving here to attempt to stay correct.

Rubricae are expensive - therefore in points, they're usually more numerous than the Tzaangors.
Rubricae are also able to be taken without any Tzaangors. Tzaangors don't have this liberty.
On pure unit count - sorry, so what do the various tanks and ascended models the TS have access to count as if not TS? Are you ONLY counting the Scarab Occult and Rubric Marines as Thousand Sons? If so, then I guess that must make the BA dead, because they're vastly outnumbered by non-BA unique stuff.

Your rebuttal to that was "you're just arguing for the sake of arguing" - why? How? He proves you wrong in that the TS DO have more units than Tzaangors. 6 units compared to 3.
How HASN'T CthulusSpy proved you incorrect in that statement? You don't make any move to disprove it, and just call it "arguing for the sake of arguing".

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 nintura wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Does that have anything to do with the fact that CthulusSpy proved you wrong?

Proved wrong how? Please tell me. Because the original reason was having more tzaangors than thousand sons marines. 4 kits vs 3. And not getting any new thousand sons marines units. In the game, there were 1 Rubric squad, 1 SoT. Yet tons of Tzaangors. Yes, it's a show case, but see the first half of this statement.

Because of the goalposts you're moving here to attempt to stay correct.

Rubricae are expensive - therefore in points, they're usually more numerous than the Tzaangors.
Rubricae are also able to be taken without any Tzaangors. Tzaangors don't have this liberty.
On pure unit count - sorry, so what do the various tanks and ascended models the TS have access to count as if not TS? Are you ONLY counting the Scarab Occult and Rubric Marines as Thousand Sons? If so, then I guess that must make the BA dead, because they're vastly outnumbered by non-BA unique stuff.

Your rebuttal to that was "you're just arguing for the sake of arguing" - why? How? He proves you wrong in that the TS DO have more units than Tzaangors. 6 units compared to 3.
How HASN'T CthulusSpy proved you incorrect in that statement? You don't make any move to disprove it, and just call it "arguing for the sake of arguing".

You've yet again failed to understand the points being made.

Is a Predator Thousand Sons? Yes. Is it what makes Thousand Sons unique? No. Is it a generic chaos space marine unit? Yes

Was I referring to generic chaos space marine units? no. Because any chaos army can take them. Those of us unhappy are complaining because when you think of Thousand Sons, you think of the Rubrics and Sorcerers. Neither of these the Predator falls under. Or a Rhino. Daemon Prince? I'll give that, but it's still a generic piece.

Now, are you trying to say that I'm blind? That I cannot see what's on stream or read what's in an army list? Because that's another matter if you are. I dont need you to tell me there's a Predator on the field, I can see that. So if I talk about Rubrics/Thousand Sons, obviously I'm leaving the Pred out for one reason or another. Our complaint is about the models that make the Thousand Sons unique, not the generic Chaos units. We got 3 "new" Tzaangor units. We got 0 new Thousand Sons marine units. Now that you know what people are trying to say, apply that to this game. I see lots of Tzaangor units, and ONLY 1 squad of Rubrics and 1 squad of SoT. That's only 2 squads of unique Thousand Sons units. Everything else is Tzaangor or generic chaos space marine units.

Well, what makes Thousand Sons unique in your eyes? When I look at their 30K list of models I see exactly 3 unique units: Sekhmet Terminators, Khenentai Marines and the Osiron Dreadnought. Everything else isn't unique - what do you want to see?
If you ask me, Tzaangors are what makes the TS unique, if they weren't there, TS were just blue Chaos marines with more sorcerers.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Well, what makes Thousand Sons unique in your eyes? When I look at their 30K list of models I see exactly 3 unique units: Sekhmet Terminators, Khenentai Marines and the Osiron Dreadnought. Everything else isn't unique - what do you want to see?
If you ask me, Tzaangors are what makes the TS unique, if they weren't there, TS were just blue Chaos marines with more sorcerers.

Honestly I couldn't tell you about 30k, I've never played it. I'd love to have the sword guys back. Just because they are automatons doesn't mean they cant be controlled to a further extent by a more gifted psyker. In fact, that would make that psyker seam much more badass all for it. Instead, I'll tell you how I saw the Thousand Sons and why I wanted to start them.

I love the idea of magic. Sorcery. Psykers. I've always loved the Thousand Sons models all throughout the years. Obviously I'm talking about Ahriman and the Rubrics. Their 2nd edition aspiring sorcerer was a wicked model. (I love their newer models for sure). But again, I saw them as a marine army that used a few fodder units, sort of like Tau use drones. Or IG use infantry while their tanks destroy the enemy. In this regard, Thousand Sons would use Tzaangor to protect themselves while they devastate the enemy with their sorcerous powers. They would be the ultimate masters of the psyker phase (except maybe to Ulthwe). So to me, the Thousand Sons faction would be their automatons and their masters, backed up by their fodder and a couple war machines. Now, I understand 8th is better for Horde armies who can control their Leadership and that makes mass Tzaangor squads favorable. And again, I have nothing against Tzaangors. I rather like their models. I love the disc ones and their Shamans. And I totally understand where everyone else is coming from with saying that Thousand Sons in their entirety are also the generic chaos space marine models. And I understand not every new codex comes with new models. I really do.

What I'm saying is that I'm disappointed that we did not get an extension to the Thousand Son legion original. I would have loved some cheaper Psykers to spam. Or different flavor of Rubrics. Hell, put Rubrics or Aspiring Sorcs on discs and give them glaives or something and I'd spend every dollar I own. Give me sprues to upgrade my rhinos and preds to something original to Thousand Sons and I'd have been happy. But you need to understand the other side of this coin and that's where everyone else is complaining. We didn't get that. What we got were 3 imports from AoS with no changes (that we know of) for our army. It just simply comes off as lazy. Does it fill a hole? Yes. Is it nice because they are already available? Yes. But if you take what are uniquely Thousand Sons marines, and you compare them to their Tzaangor add ons, you have more Tzaangor units in the dex than you do Thousand Sons. Imagine if you played a Tau army, but all you had in your dex was Stealth Suits, Fire Warriors, and Kroot. You finally get your new dex and they just give you 3 more versions of Kroot. Yes, technically Kroot are part of the Tau empire. But they really aren't the reason you're playing Tau now are they?

TLDR: It feels like a Tzaangor army and not Thousand Sons Legion proper. If they had named this Codex: Tzeentch, oh sweet baby Jesus I'd totally be on your guys side over this.

 nintura wrote:
Because the original reason was having more tzaangors than thousand sons marines. 4 kits vs 3.

Tzaangor Kits:
1) Shaman
2) Enlightened
3) Regular Tzaangors

Three kits.


Thousand Sons Unique Marine Kits:
1) Rubrics
2) Scarab Terminators
3) Exalted Sorcerers
4) Ahriman
5) Magnus

Five kits.

So even if we accept your bs limit of not counting common chaos marine units such as Hellbrutes, Daemon Princes and Predators, there are still more Thousand Sons marine kits than Tzaangor kits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 nintura wrote:

Give me sprues to upgrade my rhinos and preds to something original to Thousand Sons and I'd have been happy.

There you go:
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Thousand-Sons-Rhino-Doors
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Thousand-Sons-Legion-Rhino-Doors-and-Frontplate-2017

Ha, wanted to provide the same links as Crimson
if you want to have unique TS Rhinos and predators have a look at the FW range or alternative sellers. That's what literally every SM and CSM player has to do.
Would I like possessed, deseased rhinos with poison launchers for my DG? Of course! But we didn't have that since 3rd ed and 8th ed. did away with most of the remaining vehicle upgrades in every army - which is kind of sad. I expect some of it to come back in some tank expansion, but that's pure speculation. Up until then we need our imagination that doesn't stop us from building verhicles as unique as we like them.

SilverAlien wrote:
Quite possibly, but by the same logic he'd be better of dropping the entire army and playing demons or renegades and heretics. Horde armies are better than elite armies overall. Even if gors didn't exist rubrics are worse than cultists or various horror variants overall. You are describing an issue with the edition as a whole, ignoring that you actually have a solution to the problem in your own codex unlike many armies.

Were not talking about pther armies were talking about TS and whether Tzaangors will be better to take then Rubrics.

 nintura wrote:
We got 3 "new" Tzaangor units. We got 0 new Thousand Sons marine units. Now that you know what people are trying to say, apply that to this game. I see lots of Tzaangor units, and ONLY 1 squad of Rubrics and 1 squad of SoT. That's only 2 squads of unique Thousand Sons units. Everything else is Tzaangor or generic chaos space marine units.

We only just got Scarabs, Magnus and the Exalted Sorc a little while ago and as a faction, we're probably not going to get any sympathy for complaining that the kits we got aren't the kits that a handful of people wanted, especially when we've just got our entire line revamped in awesome plastics with many others still languish in metal or finecast.

Exalted, Rubricae and Scarabs, Ahriman and Magnus are all specialty TS marine units. The Shaman, Skyfires, Tzaangors and Mutalith are all generic non-marine Sons units. Then you've got the various tanks and daemon engines that round it out that are copy paste jobs from the CSM book. 5 marine units, 4 non-marine units and a bunch of support units common to our parent dex.

If you were refering to the list for the warhammer TV game, well, duh, they're showing off the new units and they literally took 1 of everything:
1x Magnus
1x Ahriman
1x Daemon Prince
1x Shaman
1x unit of Scarabs
1x unit of Rubricae
1x unit of Cultists
1x unit of Tzaangors
1x unit of Enlightened
1x Predator
1x Mutalith

The only thing that's missing from that list that's exclusive to the Sons is an exalted sorceror, otherwise they have 4x TS marine units, 4x TS non-marine units and 3 generics from the CSM dex.

There's really only 2 things I can gather from the 21 pages of both sides bitching back and forth at the other and if someone from the "Sons are dead" side can try and fill the blanks in, I'd appreciate it:
1) We got models, but they weren't Thousand Sons special snowflake marine versions of existing CSM units and this has caused some people to throw their toys out of the pram before seeing any solid information be somewhat dissapointed that non-marine forces are present to any notable degree in the 'dex
2) There's a lot of disagreement on what fluff is relevant and if the title was changed to "The addition of various flavours of gor doesn't match the vision I had for my Thousand Sons army", nobody would have cared and there would have been a small handful of replies at best.

For those of you who are unhappy with how things have panned out so far, I ask you this: Would you have been happier if we had a) gotten a codex only and 0 new models (thus keeping the "focus" on the marine portion of the Sons in your eyes), or b) the release as you've seen it so far where you have the option of taking some of the new units or not at your discretion? Please note that there is no 3rd option, it's a) or b) only.

 Crimson wrote:

 nintura wrote:
Because the original reason was having more tzaangors than thousand sons marines. 4 kits vs 3.

Tzaangor Kits:
1) Shaman
2) Enlightened
3) Regular Tzaangors

Three kits.


Thousand Sons Unique Marine Kits:
1) Rubrics
2) Scarab Terminators
3) Exalted Sorcerers
4) Ahriman
5) Magnus

Five kits.

So even if we accept your bs limit of not counting common chaos marine units such as Hellbrutes, Daemon Princes and Predators, there are still more Thousand Sons marine kits than Tzaangor kits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 nintura wrote:

Give me sprues to upgrade my rhinos and preds to something original to Thousand Sons and I'd have been happy.

There you go:
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Thousand-Sons-Rhino-Doors
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Thousand-Sons-Legion-Rhino-Doors-and-Frontplate-2017

Since when do we start counting Named Characters? And how many people bitch when you bring Maggie? You're also forgetting Skyfires.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Ha, wanted to provide the same links as Crimson
if you want to have unique TS Rhinos and predators have a look at the FW range or alternative sellers. That's what literally every SM and CSM player has to do.
Would I like possessed, deseased rhinos with poison launchers for my DG? Of course! But we didn't have that since 3rd ed and 8th ed. did away with most of the remaining vehicle upgrades in every army - which is kind of sad. I expect some of it to come back in some tank expansion, but that's pure speculation. Up until then we need our imagination that doesn't stop us from building verhicles as unique as we like them.

Ive been in this game over 20 years. I know what forgeworld is. The point was that GW themselves did not put anything into making new stuff. Again, the defining term in that whole argument was "lazy"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Drasius wrote:

 nintura wrote:
We got 3 "new" Tzaangor units. We got 0 new Thousand Sons marine units. Now that you know what people are trying to say, apply that to this game. I see lots of Tzaangor units, and ONLY 1 squad of Rubrics and 1 squad of SoT. That's only 2 squads of unique Thousand Sons units. Everything else is Tzaangor or generic chaos space marine units.

We only just got Scarabs, Magnus and the Exalted Sorc a little while ago and as a faction, we're probably not going to get any sympathy for complaining that the kits we got aren't the kits that a handful of people wanted, especially when we've just got our entire line revamped in awesome plastics with many others still languish in metal or finecast.

Exalted, Rubricae and Scarabs, Ahriman and Magnus are all specialty TS marine units. The Shaman, Skyfires, Tzaangors and Mutalith are all generic non-marine Sons units. Then you've got the various tanks and daemon engines that round it out that are copy paste jobs from the CSM book. 5 marine units, 4 non-marine units and a bunch of support units common to our parent dex.

If you were refering to the list for the warhammer TV game, well, duh, they're showing off the new units and they literally took 1 of everything:
1x Magnus
1x Ahriman
1x Daemon Prince
1x Shaman
1x unit of Scarabs
1x unit of Rubricae
1x unit of Cultists
1x unit of Tzaangors
1x unit of Enlightened
1x Predator
1x Mutalith

The only thing that's missing from that list that's exclusive to the Sons is an exalted sorceror, otherwise they have 4x TS marine units, 4x TS non-marine units and 3 generics from the CSM dex.

There's really only 2 things I can gather from the 21 pages of both sides bitching back and forth at the other and if someone from the "Sons are dead" side can try and fill the blanks in, I'd appreciate it:
1) We got models, but they weren't Thousand Sons special snowflake marine versions of existing CSM units and this has caused some people to throw their toys out of the pram before seeing any solid information be somewhat dissapointed that non-marine forces are present to any notable degree in the 'dex
2) There's a lot of disagreement on what fluff is relevant and if the title was changed to "The addition of various flavours of gor doesn't match the vision I had for my Thousand Sons army", nobody would have cared and there would have been a small handful of replies at best.

For those of you who are unhappy with how things have panned out so far, I ask you this: Would you have been happier if we had a) gotten a codex only and 0 new models (thus keeping the "focus" on the marine portion of the Sons in your eyes), or b) the release as you've seen it so far where you have the option of taking some of the new units or not at your discretion? Please note that there is no 3rd option, it's a) or b) only.

Ive already answered that a dozen times. And so again here we go. Nobody is complaining that we got Gors added to the army. The copy paste from AoS is lazy. The lack of any expansion of Thousand Sons proper is bad. I'm happy to have these Gor adds because I like the models. However, the direction of the army feels like they are focusing on Gors with Thousand Sons support.

 nintura wrote:

Since when do we start counting Named Characters?

Since always? Why wouldn't we count them?

And how many people bitch when you bring Maggie?

What that has to do with anything?

You're also forgetting Skyfires.

They're the same kit than the Enlightened. It might be even the same datasheet with a weapon option (of that I'm not sure.)

 Crimson wrote:

 nintura wrote:

Since when do we start counting Named Characters?

Since always? Why wouldn't we count them?

And how many people bitch when you bring Maggie?

What that has to do with anything?

You're also forgetting Skyfires.

They're the same kit than the Enlightened. It might be even the same datasheet with a weapon option (of that I'm not sure.)

Because you can't make an army out of them? Some organizations don't allow them?

look, you believe what you want. We got what we did, and we can't change it. I'm not going to change your mind, you're not gonna change mine.

 nintura wrote:

Because you can't make an army out of them?

So? They can still be part of your army, and in case of these two very expensive characters, quite substantial portion of the army.

Some organizations don't allow them?

Not really GW's fault if player themselves decide to place inane bans.


The amount of goalpost shifting you're engaging is pretty damn extensive.

 Crimson wrote:

 nintura wrote:

Because you can't make an army out of them?

So? They can still be part of your army, and in case of these two very expensive characters, quite substantial portion of the army.

Some organizations don't allow them?

Not really GW's fault if player themselves decide to place inane bans.


The amount of goalpost shifting you're engaging is pretty damn extensive.

Now see, I love this. I do something similar, I get warnings. You do it, nothing. I try to drop the subject and you just have to keep getting the last barb in, you have to win the argument like you're 6 years old or something. Maybe you could go on a playdate with my kids or something, you'll get along great.

Welcome to the world of 8th edition GK, where we all are useless psykers.

 nintura wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 nintura wrote:

Because you can't make an army out of them?

So? They can still be part of your army, and in case of these two very expensive characters, quite substantial portion of the army.

Some organizations don't allow them?

Not really GW's fault if player themselves decide to place inane bans.


The amount of goalpost shifting you're engaging is pretty damn extensive.

Now see, I love this. I do something similar, I get warnings. You do it, nothing. I try to drop the subject and you just have to keep getting the last barb in, you have to win the argument like you're 6 years old or something. Maybe you could go on a playdate with my kids or something, you'll get along great.

Considering the post you just made is an ad hominem attack, instead of about the argument itself, that might explain why.

Again, the fact that you chose not to deal with the argument and the very valid point about special characters still being "unique", disproving how there's more Tzaangor units than TS ones, is telling.

 nintura wrote:

Now see, I love this. I do something similar, I get warnings. You do it, nothing. I try to drop the subject and you just have to keep getting the last barb in, you have to win the argument like you're 6 years old or something. Maybe you could go on a playdate with my kids or something, you'll get along great.

Look, if you don't want to get challenged, then don't make blatantly fallacious claims. Things like number of kits are facts. This is not America, facts are not just opinions. As for your kids, if they're six they probably have no trouble grasping that five is more than three, so in that sense I think we would get along fine.

 Crimson wrote:

 nintura wrote:

Now see, I love this. I do something similar, I get warnings. You do it, nothing. I try to drop the subject and you just have to keep getting the last barb in, you have to win the argument like you're 6 years old or something. Maybe you could go on a playdate with my kids or something, you'll get along great.

Look, if you don't want to get challenged, then don't make blatantly fallacious claims. Things like number of kits are facts. This is not America, facts are not just opinions. As for your kids, if they're six they probably have no trouble grasping that five is more than three, so in that sense I think we would get along fine.

Okay, you just managed to insult a fair number of users in here that aren't him with that claim.

It was not an reference to Americans in general, merely to certain currently prevailing trends in the political discourse of that country. But you're right that it was an unnecessary addition.

 nintura wrote:


And then tell me it doens't matter because it was a showcase of models....

Because that is legitimately valid. You don't have the book. I don't have the book. No one can make any claims about what will be "good", but we can all objectively state that the things we HAVE seen are VERY good for rubrics and termies.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 nintura wrote:


And then tell me it doens't matter because it was a showcase of models....

Because that is legitimately valid. You don't have the book. I don't have the book. No one can make any claims about what will be "good", but we can all objectively state that the things we HAVE seen are VERY good for rubrics and termies.

I never said any models are good or bad....

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 nintura wrote:

Now see, I love this. I do something similar, I get warnings. You do it, nothing. I try to drop the subject and you just have to keep getting the last barb in, you have to win the argument like you're 6 years old or something. Maybe you could go on a playdate with my kids or something, you'll get along great.

Look, if you don't want to get challenged, then don't make blatantly fallacious claims. Things like number of kits are facts. This is not America, facts are not just opinions. As for your kids, if they're six they probably have no trouble grasping that five is more than three, so in that sense I think we would get along fine.

Okay, you just managed to insult a fair number of users in here that aren't him with that claim.

Agreed. Time to bring Finland some fire and fury and freedom.
We need to build a wall to keep those Fins from coming here. Those Fins... Always trying to escape their gakhole country.
Now where's my beer and shotgun? I need to hit up Wal-Mart for a new tarp for my fourwheeler and a can of bait.

I don't know why you guys keep replying to Crimson at all. He clearly is just here to troll.
Every time you make a argument he will just say you don't deserve it because army X have it worse. If you argue army X need more stuff he will tell you to stop whining because squats have it worse. As if these are valid arguments at all.
We are here to discuss what TS need to be a fun and balanced army not to compare how poor/sad other armies have it.

Back to the topic:
Imo the TS suffer from the MW mechanic only in the psychic phase the most. In the 7th edition you had psychic powers for everything: anti-tank/anti-horde/mobility spells etc. If you have a psychic solution to all problems a full psyker army like the TS can work.
And this is also what appealed to me in the 7th. If thousands sons needed something done they turn to psychic powers.

But in the 8th edition we are limited to mortal wound spells. Which is very good against elite armies but not against armies with a high model count. So in order to keep these powers somewhat relevant, GW make these powers function as "sniper rifles" to take out characters.
Which i feel is rather out of place for psychic powers.

You also see it if you look at the tzeentch daemon codex. Which i think is a good showcase for what GW has in mind for psychic heavy armies:
1. Not a lot of changes to the psychic powers. Just expanded the list a bit but no real buffs to the excising ones.
2. The "targeted smites" require a WC of 8+ which makes it only effective sticking it on stuff with a with a +2 to cast (magnus/LoC/Kairos).
On the other hand magnus needs his +1 invul/warptime/-1 to hit so perhaps just stick Doombolt on some rubrics and hope you get lucky once or twice per game.
3. As for the question how to deal with high model count armies. Tzeentch got a lot of buffs in shooting/assault and i think we will be no different. And we also know how they will do it, in the form of tzaangors.

Overall not too exciting stuff imho. Ironically to me they will become like every other 40k army. Mostly a shooting/assault army with some psychic support. They only difference is that we do not have/get a power armored model army.

 Crimson wrote:

 nintura wrote:
Because the original reason was having more tzaangors than thousand sons marines. 4 kits vs 3.

Tzaangor Kits:
1) Shaman
2) Enlightened
3) Regular Tzaangors

Three kits.


Thousand Sons Unique Marine Kits:
1) Rubrics
2) Scarab Terminators
3) Exalted Sorcerers
4) Ahriman
5) Magnus

Five kits.

So even if we accept your bs limit of not counting common chaos marine units such as Hellbrutes, Daemon Princes and Predators, there are still more Thousand Sons marine kits than Tzaangor kits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 nintura wrote:

Give me sprues to upgrade my rhinos and preds to something original to Thousand Sons and I'd have been happy.

There you go:
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Thousand-Sons-Rhino-Doors
https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Thousand-Sons-Legion-Rhino-Doors-and-Frontplate-2017

The reason we are not counting Generic CSM units is because they are generic CSM units. We are talking about units unique to the army which can be taken repeatedly. Ahriman is and Exalted beefed up a bit. Maguns is an army unto himself and is hardly some you would take more then 1 of(if you could).

There are 3 TS units right now Exalted, Rubrics, and SOT. Rubrics and SOT fill the same role, Exalted fill a different role, but there are huge gaps in our army. Those are being filled with Tzaangor units and a Giant Spawn, not any kind of Rubric unit.

Also, it appers there are 2 variants of the Enlightened a melee version and a ranged version. So thats 2 Tzaangors units there, then regular Tzaangors, then the Shaman, 4 units in total compared to the 3.

There is no reason to have the Shaman, none. Exalted Kit comes with a bunch of bits, you could have easily created an elite unit that buffed units and the shaman never enters the picture. 1k sons have wanted a Psyker Dread for some time now which would give us an actual antitank option. Just doing those 2 things there would completely change the how the serup would work for our army.

But as it stands our "chaff" unit is neither chaff nor TS, our Rubrics are our chaff, and SOT are a worse version of the Rubrics. Were getting 3 new Tzzangor units which will fill FA slots. These two units fill at least 2 roles, anti-vehicle and general backline disruption, Tzaangors are anti-horde and objective holding. Our Rubrics do what? The're "difficult" to kill and good at killing things in the open that don't have an invul save, but low str keeps them from killing anything noticible, unless you use CP on them and even then it only affects 1 unit.

The simple fact is we have had the same problem since index release. Our Rubrics die easily to OC Plasma and our "chaff" has an invul save. No one is going to shoot AP - at a model that has a 2+ save and no one is going to shoot an AP -3 weapon at a unit that has only an Invul save. Weaver of fates is the only thing we had to help with this and we can only cast it once. Which means one of our units is going to be left vulnurable. We have no LD buffs or mitigation from morale losses so taking large units is a bad idea. Tzaangors are also a bit slow, and in squads of more then 10

We have needed a way to fix these problems. So what did we get Glamour, -1 to hit, perfect for our Rubrics keeps them alive longer AND makes shooting plasma at them a hazard due to increased risk of Gets Hot!

Mutalith blows up on death and seems to be fast, it has an aura that buffs melee units more then likley. So it will draw fire off the Tzaangors while they move up.

Now we just need anti tank which the Skyfires do well. But they could have easily added a 3 man squad of SOT with Soul Reapers and Hellfyre Racks they have the models for it already. Slap it in a new box and sell that. Nope, Tzaangors with Discs great, more models to buy.

Even if you wanted to make the lore argument, SOT shouldn't have been affected by the Rubric, Discs are supposed to be for chosen of Tzeentch not plebs with bows, TS NEED CSM to operate thier vehicles thats what thier designed for, I could keep going.

The simple fact is they had two options expand rubrics a bit and make a Rubric Army or spend nothing and cram unsold models down our throats.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I informed you thusly

I expect 1 paragraph apologies which include the phrases "I'm sorry", "you were right", and "i was wrong"

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/01/21/next-weeks-pre-orders-ever-changing-ever-vigilant/

 nintura wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 nintura wrote:


And then tell me it doens't matter because it was a showcase of models....

Because that is legitimately valid. You don't have the book. I don't have the book. No one can make any claims about what will be "good", but we can all objectively state that the things we HAVE seen are VERY good for rubrics and termies.

I never said any models are good or bad....

No, but deeper in you said "the Thousand Sons Army....will now be made up of mostly Tzzangor units a couple of Rubric units and Sorcerers" , which was called out by the other guy.

So, sure, we didn't get new rubrics, but the ones we do have potentially got way more interesting.

Zhan wrote:I don't know why you guys keep replying to Crimson at all. He clearly is just here to troll.
Every time you make a argument he will just say you don't deserve it because army X have it worse. If you argue army X need more stuff he will tell you to stop whining because squats have it worse. As if these are valid arguments at all.
We are here to discuss what TS need to be a fun and balanced army not to compare how poor/sad other armies have it.

If anyone's here to troll, I don't think it's Crimson.
The title of this thread is "Thousand Sons are dead" - if Crimson can prove another army has it worse, then it's incorrect. Besides - I don't think (prove me wrong here) that anyone's been saying "X have it worse" - I think it's been more "Thousand Sons aren't crippled, you don't need Tzaangors, you're in a better state than you were beforeand. You've lost nothing, only gained things, and the flavour of the faction is unchanged from what it was in 5th, barring you now have optional Tzaangor allies."

Fun is subjective, but Tzaangors shouldn't really affect that, considering they're optional - your comments below about psychic warfare are good, but I fear it's more of an 8th issue than TS.
Balanced, we can't really tell without having the codex here. We can't say they'll be brilliant or terrible, but from what we can seen, they're clearly not as bad as the title makes out.

Back to the topic:
Imo the TS suffer from the MW mechanic only in the psychic phase the most. In the 7th edition you had psychic powers for everything: anti-tank/anti-horde/mobility spells etc. If you have a psychic solution to all problems a full psyker army like the TS can work.
And this is also what appealed to me in the 7th. If thousands sons needed something done they turn to psychic powers.

But in the 8th edition we are limited to mortal wound spells. Which is very good against elite armies but not against armies with a high model count. So in order to keep these powers somewhat relevant, GW make these powers function as "sniper rifles" to take out characters.
Which i feel is rather out of place for psychic powers.

You also see it if you look at the tzeentch daemon codex. Which i think is a good showcase for what GW has in mind for psychic heavy armies:
1. Not a lot of changes to the psychic powers. Just expanded the list a bit but no real buffs to the excising ones.
2. The "targeted smites" require a WC of 8+ which makes it only effective sticking it on stuff with a with a +2 to cast (magnus/LoC/Kairos).
On the other hand magnus needs his +1 invul/warptime/-1 to hit so perhaps just stick Doombolt on some rubrics and hope you get lucky once or twice per game.
3. As for the question how to deal with high model count armies. Tzeentch got a lot of buffs in shooting/assault and i think we will be no different. And we also know how they will do it, in the form of tzaangors.

I don't think Tzaangors will be great at much - they'll fill some small gaps, but they offensively won't change too much.

They DO shift things in that they are a cheap, screening unit - that will be a new realm the TS can explore.

A possible reason as to why the TS don't have a masssive focus on psychic powers is because GW wants to avoid the psychic battery mess caused in 7th.

Overall not too exciting stuff imho. Ironically to me they will become like every other 40k army. Mostly a shooting/assault army with some psychic support. They only difference is that we do not have/get a power armored model army.

Sorry, correct me if I'm misunderstanding, but "power armour"? What is it that Rubricae, Ahriman, Aspiring Sorcerors (and if you push the definition of power armour out to Space Marines armour, Scarab Occult) wear if not power armour?

I mean...we're getting 18 psychic powers...

Daedalus81 wrote:

 nintura wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 nintura wrote:


And then tell me it doens't matter because it was a showcase of models....

Because that is legitimately valid. You don't have the book. I don't have the book. No one can make any claims about what will be "good", but we can all objectively state that the things we HAVE seen are VERY good for rubrics and termies.

I never said any models are good or bad....

No, but deeper in you said "the Thousand Sons Army....will now be made up of mostly Tzzangor units a couple of Rubric units and Sorcerers" , which was called out by the other guy.

So, sure, we didn't get new rubrics, but the ones we do have potentially got way more interesting.

No he didnt I did and you should check my previous post.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Daedalus81 wrote:
I mean...we're getting 18 psychic powers...

Yeah and a link to an AoS battle force with a seperate sprue upgrade

Daedalus81 wrote:

 nintura wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 nintura wrote:


And then tell me it doens't matter because it was a showcase of models....

Because that is legitimately valid. You don't have the book. I don't have the book. No one can make any claims about what will be "good", but we can all objectively state that the things we HAVE seen are VERY good for rubrics and termies.

I never said any models are good or bad....

No, but deeper in you said "the Thousand Sons Army....will now be made up of mostly Tzzangor units a couple of Rubric units and Sorcerers" , which was called out by the other guy.

So, sure, we didn't get new rubrics, but the ones we do have potentially got way more interesting.

I didnt say they weren't... I have even said multiple times I love the new Tzaangor stuff. I like the models. I dont however like the direction of the codex.

This is a 22 page of continuous arguments where nobody is agreeing, actually went to the news and rumors page and continued the arguments there, and Thousand Son Sorcerer said with actual seriousness

I informed you thusly

I expect 1 paragraph apologies which include the phrases "I'm sorry", "you were right", and "i was wrong"

The fact this topic has been left to continue is surprising.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:
I mean...we're getting 18 psychic powers...

Yeah and a link to an AoS battle force with a seperate sprue upgrade

You are not getting new models. Grow up and deal with it for God's sake. You are just like 80% of the rest of 8th Codex/Armies. At least you receive new unit options, yeah ported from AoS so what? Its better than nothing. Email GW with your feedback if it upset you so much.

And please save yourself you "If you don't want to read this don't open this thread, this is a discussion forum". Because this is a discussion forum I'm telling you to mature.

Daedalus81 wrote:
I mean...we're getting 18 psychic powers...

Im sorry I couldn't hear you over the sound of me being right.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:
I mean...we're getting 18 psychic powers...

Im sorry I couldn't hear you over the sound of me being right.

Are you attempting to gaslight? Because...

Now with the changes to smite bringing any more than one or two rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be totally useless, because you will be paying a premium to have access to an ability which you will almost never be able to use even if needed. This means that bringing rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be almost useless compared too bringing the cheaper Tzzangors.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:
I mean...we're getting 18 psychic powers...

Im sorry I couldn't hear you over the sound of me being right.

Are you attempting to gaslight? Because...

Now with the changes to smite bringing any more than one or two rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be totally useless, because you will be paying a premium to have access to an ability which you will almost never be able to use even if needed. This means that bringing rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be almost useless compared too bringing the cheaper Tzzangors.

Technically he was still right AT THE TIME based on the information we had access to.

 nintura wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:
I mean...we're getting 18 psychic powers...

Im sorry I couldn't hear you over the sound of me being right.

Are you attempting to gaslight? Because...

Now with the changes to smite bringing any more than one or two rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be totally useless, because you will be paying a premium to have access to an ability which you will almost never be able to use even if needed. This means that bringing rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be almost useless compared too bringing the cheaper Tzzangors.

Technically he was still right AT THE TIME based on the information we had access to.

Well, gee, I guess I was right when I said the earth was flat. Who knew it was round if you just keep going?

 Galas wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:
I mean...we're getting 18 psychic powers...

Yeah and a link to an AoS battle force with a seperate sprue upgrade

You are not getting new models. Grow up and deal with it for God's sake. You are just like 80% of the rest of 8th Codex/Armies. At least you receive new unit options, yeah ported from AoS so what? Its better than nothing. Email GW with your feedback if it upset you so much.

And please save yourself you "If you don't want to read this don't open this thread, this is a discussion forum". Because this is a discussion forum I'm telling you to mature.

Because thats not the Army I was sold, I was sold an army of Rubrics lead by powerful Sorcerers.

Again, it would be like GW annocing the new Black Templars led by Psykers of the eldar faction.

They couldn't even be bothered to make an actual battle force. I bet that upgrade sprue is in a fething plastic bag.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 nintura wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:
I mean...we're getting 18 psychic powers...

Im sorry I couldn't hear you over the sound of me being right.

Are you attempting to gaslight? Because...

Now with the changes to smite bringing any more than one or two rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be totally useless, because you will be paying a premium to have access to an ability which you will almost never be able to use even if needed. This means that bringing rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be almost useless compared too bringing the cheaper Tzzangors.

Technically he was still right AT THE TIME based on the information we had access to.

Well, gee, I guess I was right when I said the earth was flat. Who knew it was round if you just keep going?

The comparison is flawed. The earth is not flat, never was so you were in fact, never correct at any point.


Now was it silly to assume we'd get nothing for our psykers? Sure. Doesn't matter though.

Long story short on this dumpster-fire of a thread; Thousand sons are going to be fantastic.

Strongest psykers in the game barring *maybe* Eldar. (makes enough sense)

We will have great Rubric and Tzaangor options, as well as a plethora of big nasties to field, along with the most robust casting set of spells in the game.

now whether or not you agree with the goats; Its going to be a good dex, either casually or competitively. there is no real denying this.

As for "what" is effective I believe one of the gents on dakka already said something along the lines of "90% of the game is "not effective" in a competitive setting" Or something akin to it.

We will be fine. I said it all along, little bit of faith goes a long way, we are getting far far far more attention then many lists got; just ask... Grey Knights, Ad Mech, or any non DG/Primaris lists this past edition.

We got more attention then anyone barring Primaris and Death Guard. Get over it, get your codex, enjoy it lol.

 nintura wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 nintura wrote:
Technically he was still right AT THE TIME based on the information we had access to.

Well, gee, I guess I was right when I said the earth was flat. Who knew it was round if you just keep going?

The comparison is flawed. The earth is not flat, never was so you were in fact, never correct at any point.

Now was it silly to assume we'd get nothing for our psykers? Sure. Doesn't matter though.

That's the point, both assumptions were entirely wrong, he wasn't correct at the time he was just wrong. Totally utterly wrong because he made stupid assumptions. Pretty much everyone crying doom and gloom and the tsons codex has just been wrong constantly. Wrong about the lore of their own army and wrong about the assumptions they made regarding the balance of their army.

I swear, it takes a lot to try and act smugly correct after spewing nothing utter idiocy and objectively incorrect statements for pages.

Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:The reason we are not counting Generic CSM units is because they are generic CSM units. We are talking about units unique to the army which can be taken repeatedly. Ahriman is and Exalted beefed up a bit. Maguns is an army unto himself and is hardly some you would take more then 1 of(if you could).

So BA players and DA players should be "dead" too then? After all, their codexes are practically 90% generic units, not even unique ones! Terrible! It's almost like splinter factions of main ones also have access to the same units!

And if we're banning unique units (because reasons?) then that's even LESS for the DA and BA.

There are 3 TS units right now Exalted, Rubrics, and SOT. Rubrics and SOT fill the same role, Exalted fill a different role, but there are huge gaps in our army. Those are being filled with Tzaangor units and a Giant Spawn, not any kind of Rubric unit.

Sorry, Rubricae and SOT fill the same role? What? I mean, if that's true, I guess that an all-soulreaper squad must count as the same role too, because it's just a weapon change. I guess the Grey Knights must also be dead, because they have pretty much the same. Hold up, Tactical Marines and Terminators are basically the same now too.

Suffice to say, I disagree with that notion.

Also, it appers there are 2 variants of the Enlightened a melee version and a ranged version. So thats 2 Tzaangors units there, then regular Tzaangors, then the Shaman, 4 units in total compared to the 3.

Only if we're following your flawed method of deciding what is and isn't TS.
Sorcerors, Ahriman, Rubricae, Scarab Occult and Magnus - and that's not even including the generic stuff, which is somehow not TS because...?

There is no reason to have the Shaman, none. Exalted Kit comes with a bunch of bits, you could have easily created an elite unit that buffed units and the shaman never enters the picture. 1k sons have wanted a Psyker Dread for some time now which would give us an actual antitank option. Just doing those 2 things there would completely change the how the serup would work for our army.

You have Mortal Wounds from your psykers, and the Predator. There's your anti-tank.

But as it stands our "chaff" unit is neither chaff nor TS, our Rubrics are our chaff, and SOT are a worse version of the Rubrics. Were getting 3 new Tzzangor units which will fill FA slots. These two units fill at least 2 roles, anti-vehicle and general backline disruption, Tzaangors are anti-horde and objective holding. Our Rubrics do what? The're "difficult" to kill and good at killing things in the open that don't have an invul save, but low str keeps them from killing anything noticible, unless you use CP on them and even then it only affects 1 unit.

Sorry, how are the Tzaangor not chaff? They're cheaper, more numerous, and lack as much of an offensive hit as the Rubricae.

Why aren't they chaff?

Your Rubricae follow the same problem as most MEQ - "tough" and armed with weaponry that gets outclassed by anything tougher than the wielder or more numerous. It's an issue with elite forces in general.

The simple fact is we have had the same problem since index release. Our Rubrics die easily to OC Plasma and our "chaff" has an invul save. No one is going to shoot AP - at a model that has a 2+ save and no one is going to shoot an AP -3 weapon at a unit that has only an Invul save.

Because that's target priority. It's like saying "yeah, it's so stupid that guardsmen have tanks and infantry, no-one's going to shoot those infantry with lascannons, and no-one going to shoot the tank with lasguns."

Now we just need anti tank which the Skyfires do well. But they could have easily added a 3 man squad of SOT with Soul Reapers and Hellfyre Racks they have the models for it already. Slap it in a new box and sell that. Nope, Tzaangors with Discs great, more models to buy.

You don't need to buy them. Up to you.

Even if you wanted to make the lore argument, SOT shouldn't have been affected by the Rubric, Discs are supposed to be for chosen of Tzeentch not plebs with bows, TS NEED CSM to operate thier vehicles thats what thier designed for, I could keep going.

Those plebs with bows are described by GW as "Elite Tzaangors, possessing strange feathers and elaborate horns, the Tzaangor Enlightened are truly blessed with the favour of Tzeentch. They wield ornate spears that set them above their lesser kin, some even riding upon Discs of Tzeentch. Tzaangor Enlightened can see strands of the past – foes cower in superstitious fear as the Enlightened give voice to events from their lives that no-one ought to have knowledge of." Emphasis mine. Not exactly "plebs".

SOT, fair point. TS vehicles could be automated by daemonic forces - forge that narrative.

The simple fact is they had two options expand rubrics a bit and make a Rubric Army or spend nothing and cram unsold models down our throats.

Or, just maybe, maybe, it's REALLY expensive to build new molds, and using assets from a different faction, which ALSO happen to fit perfectly narratively into the army is cost effective and gives the army something drastically new and fluffy.

I informed you thusly

I expect 1 paragraph apologies which include the phrases "I'm sorry", "you were right", and "i was wrong"

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/01/21/next-weeks-pre-orders-ever-changing-ever-vigilant/

Forgive me if I missed something, but I don't get it?

 nintura wrote:


The comparison is flawed. The earth is not flat, never was so you were in fact, never correct at any point.


Now was it silly to assume we'd get nothing for our psykers? Sure. Doesn't matter though.

Now you're just playing pedantics to defend the absurd. The Earth isn't round, either. It's an oblate spheroid. Woo hoo!

You could say that about literally anything. It doesn't make someone smart or insightful to make baseless and absurd claims sans information.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ahriman21 wrote:
Long story short on this dumpster-fire of a thread; Thousand sons are going to be fantastic.

Strongest psykers in the game barring *maybe* Eldar. (makes enough sense)

We will have great Rubric and Tzaangor options, as well as a plethora of big nasties to field, along with the most robust casting set of spells in the game.

now whether or not you agree with the goats; Its going to be a good dex, either casually or competitively. there is no real denying this.

As for "what" is effective I believe one of the gents on dakka already said something along the lines of "90% of the game is "not effective" in a competitive setting" Or something akin to it.

We will be fine. I said it all along, little bit of faith goes a long way, we are getting far far far more attention then many lists got; just ask... Grey Knights, Ad Mech, or any non DG/Primaris lists this past edition.

We got more attention then anyone barring Primaris and Death Guard. Get over it, get your codex, enjoy it lol.

Yea i'm 110% excited. I can't wait to actually discuss the real book.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 nintura wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:
I mean...we're getting 18 psychic powers...

Im sorry I couldn't hear you over the sound of me being right.

Are you attempting to gaslight? Because...

Now with the changes to smite bringing any more than one or two rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be totally useless, because you will be paying a premium to have access to an ability which you will almost never be able to use even if needed. This means that bringing rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be almost useless compared too bringing the cheaper Tzzangors.

Technically he was still right AT THE TIME based on the information we had access to.

Well, gee, I guess I was right when I said the earth was flat. Who knew it was round if you just keep going?

How am I wrong? Do you think they are going to drop the points of the AS now that they can cast Prescience? Or any of the other spells? No Rubrics will godown 2PPM more then likley AS and SOS will probably go up. With smite no longer avaliable we have to try and cast spells with Sorcs that have 1 and 2 wounds? Risking death with every roll? Sure then drop the points and you can take a bunch and have a bunch of single wound sorcs People wont do that. Other option buff AS and SOS to Pusedo Psyker give them full fledged spells 1 more wound and jack the points up to match. Either way bringing Rubrics/SOT becomes woefully inefficent.

Why do you keep assuming the WORST outcome? And not in a "Well, I'm expecting this. If its end being better I'll be happy", nooo. You are in a "ALL IS HORRIBLE AND WE ARE ALL GONNA DIE! I'LL BE RIGHT YOU'LL SEE!"

Is just... I don't know. Why?

Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 Galas wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:
I mean...we're getting 18 psychic powers...

Yeah and a link to an AoS battle force with a seperate sprue upgrade

You are not getting new models. Grow up and deal with it for God's sake. You are just like 80% of the rest of 8th Codex/Armies. At least you receive new unit options, yeah ported from AoS so what? Its better than nothing. Email GW with your feedback if it upset you so much.

And please save yourself you "If you don't want to read this don't open this thread, this is a discussion forum". Because this is a discussion forum I'm telling you to mature.

Because thats not the Army I was sold, I was sold an army of Rubrics lead by powerful Sorcerers.

Again, it would be like GW annocing the new Black Templars led by Psykers of the eldar faction.

They couldn't even be bothered to make an actual battle force. I bet that upgrade sprue is in a fething plastic bag.

Incorrect. GW have never sold TS as a standalone army until very recently. Before this, you had 2/TWO units, and one of these was unique (which you love to disclude).

TS can be an army of Rubricae and Sorcerers. Just because you CAN run some chaff doesn't mean you have to. Does that mean that BA aren't assault themed? After all, I can take Devastators and Vindicators in the list!

 Galas wrote:

Spoiler:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 nintura wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:
I mean...we're getting 18 psychic powers...

Im sorry I couldn't hear you over the sound of me being right.

Are you attempting to gaslight? Because...

Now with the changes to smite bringing any more than one or two rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be totally useless, because you will be paying a premium to have access to an ability which you will almost never be able to use even if needed. This means that bringing rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be almost useless compared too bringing the cheaper Tzzangors.

Technically he was still right AT THE TIME based on the information we had access to.

Well, gee, I guess I was right when I said the earth was flat. Who knew it was round if you just keep going?

How am I wrong? Do you think they are going to drop the points of the AS now that they can cast Prescience? Or any of the other spells? No Rubrics will godown 2PPM more then likley AS and SOS will probably go up. With smite no longer avaliable we have to try and cast spells with Sorcs that have 1 and 2 wounds? Risking death with every roll? Sure then drop the points and you can take a bunch and have a bunch of single wound sorcs People wont do that. Other option buff AS and SOS to Pusedo Psyker give them full fledged spells 1 more wound and jack the points up to match. Either way bringing Rubrics/SOT becomes woefully inefficent.

Why do you keep assuming the WORST outcome? And not in a "Well, I'm expecting this. If its end being better I'll be happy", nooo. You are in a "ALL IS HORRIBLE AND WE ARE ALL GONNA DIE! I'LL BE RIGHT YOU'LL SEE!"

Is just... I don't know. Why?

Not an Argument I am not assuming I am right. I have presented my argument either refute it or agree. Don't ask questions like why do you think your right when you habe access to that information.

 nintura wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:
I mean...we're getting 18 psychic powers...

Im sorry I couldn't hear you over the sound of me being right.

Are you attempting to gaslight? Because...

Now with the changes to smite bringing any more than one or two rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be totally useless, because you will be paying a premium to have access to an ability which you will almost never be able to use even if needed. This means that bringing rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be almost useless compared too bringing the cheaper Tzzangors.

Technically he was still right AT THE TIME based on the information we had access to.

So he was still wrong at the time? That's moving the goalposts given we had no information at the time.

No. BA and DA have plenty of unique models to themselves.

- They have their own upgrade pack
- Not quite the same argument, but their own rules for a Furioso dread
- Librarian Dread
- Death Company
- Death Company Dread
- Sanguinary Priest
- Not counting, but tons of unique HQs (8? 9?)
- Baal Pred
- Sanguinary Guard


Dark Angels:
- upgrade kit
- interrogator-chaplain
- own special veteran squad
- banner bearer
- ravenwing darkshroud
- deathwing assault termie
- ravenwing bike squad
- deathwing command squad
- deathwing knights
- deathwing terminator squad
- vehicle upgrade sprue
- ravenwing upgrade sprue
- land speeder vengeance
- fallen models (did not know this...)
- unique characters (7? 8? Again, not counting, just mentioning)



Rubrics and Scarabs do and do not fill a similar role. They have the same weapons loadouts. Powerswords are next to useless, I'd love to have Fists. They kill the same targets. Where they differ is mobility. Terms can deep strike.


Mortal wounds are not anti-tank. For the most part you can only cast the same power once a turn. Smite gets less and less effective. A lascannon is arguably far more effective. A melta even more so. They help, for sure. But are not reliable enough and you risk blowing up your squad on your one wound models.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:


How am I wrong? Do you think they are going to drop the points of the AS now that they can cast Prescience? Or any of the other spells? No Rubrics will godown 2PPM more then likley AS and SOS will probably go up. With smite no longer avaliable we have to try and cast spells with Sorcs that have 1 and 2 wounds? Risking death with every roll? Sure then drop the points and you can take a bunch and have a bunch of single wound sorcs People wont do that. Other option buff AS and SOS to Pusedo Psyker give them full fledged spells 1 more wound and jack the points up to match. Either way bringing Rubrics/SOT becomes woefully inefficent.

YESSS! More baseless assumptions! I can't wait to see how those turn out. I did learn that you are currently TOTALLY correct, because we have no other conflicting info. Congrats!

As a matter of fact, yes, our 1W psykers are going to die more now, because we'll be casting more often due to not being out of range of something with a silly tiny smite. So while you lament that "smite is no longer available" i'll be rejoicing that my sorcerers do more than toss out a single wound in rounds 2 and 3.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
Quite possibly, but by the same logic he'd be better of dropping the entire army and playing demons or renegades and heretics. Horde armies are better than elite armies overall. Even if gors didn't exist rubrics are worse than cultists or various horror variants overall. You are describing an issue with the edition as a whole, ignoring that you actually have a solution to the problem in your own codex unlike many armies.

Were not talking about pther armies were talking about TS and whether Tzaangors will be better to take then Rubrics.

Again though, it'd hardly be surprising if rubrics weren't worth using as troops because every space marine army has that problem. Vanilla CSM armies use cultists or daemons (WE can use some zerkers, but even they fill out with cultists for CP), imperial SM use scouts or ally in IG, and deathguard use cultists, poxwalkers, or daemon troops for the majority.

It's partially that space marine statline infantry are overpriced (probably the generalist issue again), partially the way detachments and CP encourage cheap troops, and partially that troops are mainly used for sitting on objectives which chaff tends to do best.

Rubrics could end up like Plague marines, where they have useful roles and taking a couple isn't a bad idea, but the biggest issue is scarab occult are generally just a better version of the unit. The only thing I can see rubrics doing better is spamming psychic powers or a squad with warpflamers in a rhino. This stands in contrast to blightlords vs PM, where the two units generally have fairly different loadouts and roles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 Galas wrote:

Spoiler:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 nintura wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:
I mean...we're getting 18 psychic powers...

Im sorry I couldn't hear you over the sound of me being right.

Are you attempting to gaslight? Because...

Now with the changes to smite bringing any more than one or two rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be totally useless, because you will be paying a premium to have access to an ability which you will almost never be able to use even if needed. This means that bringing rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be almost useless compared too bringing the cheaper Tzzangors.

Technically he was still right AT THE TIME based on the information we had access to.

Well, gee, I guess I was right when I said the earth was flat. Who knew it was round if you just keep going?

How am I wrong? Do you think they are going to drop the points of the AS now that they can cast Prescience? Or any of the other spells? No Rubrics will godown 2PPM more then likley AS and SOS will probably go up. With smite no longer avaliable we have to try and cast spells with Sorcs that have 1 and 2 wounds? Risking death with every roll? Sure then drop the points and you can take a bunch and have a bunch of single wound sorcs People wont do that. Other option buff AS and SOS to Pusedo Psyker give them full fledged spells 1 more wound and jack the points up to match. Either way bringing Rubrics/SOT becomes woefully inefficent.

Why do you keep assuming the WORST outcome? And not in a "Well, I'm expecting this. If its end being better I'll be happy", nooo. You are in a "ALL IS HORRIBLE AND WE ARE ALL GONNA DIE! I'LL BE RIGHT YOU'LL SEE!"

Is just... I don't know. Why?

Not an Argument I am not assuming I am right. I have presented my argument either refute it or agree. Don't ask questions like why do you think your right when you habe access to that information.

But, we already know the sorcerers went down to the same price as a normal rubric in the CSM codex. At absolute worst they might go back to the old price (which would suck).

"Oh its so woefully bad!, So terribly horrible! Trust me it will be AWFUL!"

*army showcase showing them beating a brand new codex*

"Oh no still so woefully bad and terribly horrible!"

*Hands over buffs*

"Oh but its still so terribly bad and woefully horribly! for other lack of options!"

*new unit options*

"Never! For they are the wrong options and are also terribly bad and woefully horribly! As well as our aspiring sorcerers being useless models!"

*Gives new casting options to said aspiring sorcerers*

"OH WOES ME THE MIS-CASTS!!! so useless and awful!"

Do you realize how juvenile you sound right now?

You are 100% determined to look toward a horrible and terrible future for the army, sadly we cant help you there as thats a pre-determined outcome and in this case a self-fulfilling prophecy on your part.

This thread is generating a lot of Moderator alerts.

Please keep calm and carry on in the approved polite way, or something will need to be done!

Thank you...

Man, if Kilkrazy hadn't posted this, I was just going to lock the thread.

Too much being rude, too much off-topic. If you posted an angry reply in this thread, we're probably talking about you.

You can't build an army from unique units (Except SW I think)

Glad to see you agree. Before you say you don't agree understand that saying "me too" or " them too" means it's happening to them as well, not that it isn't happening.

Check the options for RM and SOT then check the options for CSM and Chaos Termies. Note the difference in loadout options for the latter nad the lack of difference in the former.

How should we decide who are TS then? Your method of anything that has the TS keyword on it? So A SM with the TS keyword is TS? How about a Grot? Eldar Guardian? Blood Claws? My method of thinking that if they were affected by the rubric THAT makes them TS.

Chaff is a distraction desgined to draw enemy fire so you suffer less losses. Agreed? Ap- weapons will cause 1 model lost per 6 wounds done. 20 points. Ap- weapons will cause 4 models lost per 6 wounds done. 28 points. You lose more by bringing Tzaangors then Rubrics. They are not chaff.

Guardsman are not max range 12 units Tanks have a range longer then 24 inchs you can deploy the tanks 18" behind the guardsman and prevent things like Plasma And melta from getting to them. How well will that work for Tzaangors and Rubrics? Espically with those awesome flamers?

Chosen as in leaders of Armies you know the people who used to be the only ones that had access to them, now Tzaangors have them? I thought Tzaangors were chaff? All of a sudden there super special? And you realize that is something they made up right? They could have just as easily said eh lets make a Psyker dread with the rules we already have and the model we already have, why not? Oh, cause it will hurt our birdman sales. It's funny because your arguing that you agree with me with the fluff, the fluff is Hordes of Tzaangors a few Rubrics and powerful Sorcs leading them.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ahriman21 wrote:
"Oh its so woefully bad!, So terribly horrible! Trust me it will be AWFUL!"

*army showcase showing them beating a brand new codex*

"Oh no still so woefully bad and terribly horrible!"

*Hands over buffs*

"Oh but its still so terribly bad and woefully horribly! for other lack of options!"

*new unit options*

"Never! For they are the wrong options and are also terribly bad and woefully horribly! As well as our aspiring sorcerers being useless models!"

*Gives new casting options to said aspiring sorcerers*

"OH WOES ME THE MIS-CASTS!!! so useless and awful!"

Do you realize how juvenile you sound right now?

You are 100% determined to look toward a horrible and terrible future for the army, sadly we cant help you there as thats a pre-determined outcome and in this case a self-fulfilling prophecy on your part.

You realize im saying none of that right?

What I am Saying is the Army of Rubrics that people used to field on the TT is dead. That is what I am saying.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
This is a 22 page of continuous arguments where nobody is agreeing, actually went to the news and rumors page and continued the arguments there, and Thousand Son Sorcerer said with actual seriousness

I informed you thusly

I expect 1 paragraph apologies which include the phrases "I'm sorry", "you were right", and "i was wrong"

The fact this topic has been left to continue is surprising.

Again ad hominims galore this is not an argument.

For all the pointless manufactured drama in this thread it should be re-titled "Keeping up with the Rubrics".

 Crimson Devil wrote:
For all the pointless manufactured drama in this thread it should be re-titled "Keeping up with the Rubrics".

LMAO

Chaff is a distraction desgined to draw enemy fire so you suffer less losses. Agreed? Ap- weapons will cause 1 model lost per 6 wounds done. 20 points. Ap- weapons will cause 4 models lost per 6 wounds done. 28 points. You lose more by bringing Tzaangors then Rubrics. They are not chaff.

Some people use chaff and bubble wrap interchangeably. In TS Tzaangors are bubble wrap not chaff. Their main purpose being to provide a distance buffer between rubrics and incoming deepstrikers.

Keeping your back line from being easily infiltrated also allows you to focus on keeping your rubrics shooting instead of spreading them out to push the 9" bubble.

Zhan wrote:
I don't know why you guys keep replying to Crimson at all. He clearly is just here to troll.
Every time you make a argument he will just say you don't deserve it because army X have it worse. If you argue army X need more stuff he will tell you to stop whining because squats have it worse. As if these are valid arguments at all.
We are here to discuss what TS need to be a fun and balanced army not to compare how poor/sad other armies have it.

You must realise I said no such thing?

I even agreed that it would be nice if FW could provide some conversion kits for new rubric units and/or 40K rules for Osiron. I was merely saying that it was unrealistic to expect new plastic kits so soon after the last batch of TS plastics, and lack of such kits doesn't mean that the army is somehow terrible or dead. Furthermore, I pointed out that complaining about shared units with CSM is pretty weird, considering that this sort of thing happens with most factions (and is not a terrible thing, it is perfectly fine) and in fact matches the fluff.

I also tried to correct clear factual errors such as number of kits.

I also said that it was premature to complain about the lack of psychic oomp, before we know what's in the codex. Now we know better, and I can say that there seems to be serious effort to make TS psychic phase quite effective. How well that will work in practice of course remains to be seen.

The 40k Osirion is coming.......Give FW some time.

Ahriman21 wrote:
The 40k Osirion is coming.......Give FW some time.

It would make perfect sense. It is just really random to which of their 30K models FW decides to give 40K rules.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
This is what I said fully about the Shaman, next time try searching for everything and not just what makes you right.

Here is a lesson in logic.

1.) Everything is what it is (a=a)
2.) Everything is not what it isn't (a=/=b)
3.) Everything is never both nor neither (a=/= ~a and ~b)

Now you have READ things about the stream, that's great. Know, in this instance, means to have knowledge of in this sense. Knowledge means you have a justified, true, belief, (there are some problems there, but we wont get into that). You have no knowledge of the stream you have rumors about the stream, you don't know what happened on the stream you know what you have READ about the stream. You don't know that in the Second turn when Eddie should have lost his entire squad of Tzaangors he lost only 17 (out of 30), you don't know those 17 Tzaangors lasted until the end of game. You don't know that the Rubrics did all of feth the entire stream, that the SOT lasted exactly 2 rounds of combat against them killing only 2 models, you don't know that Magnus died in the second turn because He killed Valorium (or whatever the Characters name is for the Custodes) and he got his free I'm dying attack and killed Magnus with it. you don't know that the Pred sat in the back and did feth all the entire game.

After all that do you know what you know about the stream? Still nothing you know what someone wrote about the stream.

"Now we're getting 3 new units with the Codex 2 are Gor units one HQ and one fast attack and we're getting a giant spawn. Don't get me wrong these things fill slots which need to be filled. The problem comes from the underlying concepts of these units."
-Quote from Thousand Sons Sorcerer

Agian, you pulled only the thing that made you right. You aren't looking to find what is true your looking to find what makes you right.

When people said "11 TS and 40 Tzaangors but you could do the opposite", no you can't Rubrics cost almost 3x Tzaangors with NO upgrades, but you parroted it because it made you right, that requires zero thought.

You even said I was right once you just don't realize it. When you mentioned bringing Horrors or Tzzangors, and dropping them infront of the enemy army, then mentioned dropping a unit of Rubrics.

Now since you know so much about the stream and all, and how I am so wrong. Answer me this, Would Eddie have been better off if he had dropped the SOT squad and the cultist squad and brought 4 10 man units of Tzaangors instead?

Trajan his name is Trajan

Hold up.

You're now saying you didn't complain that Tzaangors would be too efficient with a +1 to-hit buff? Because you did. I quoted it at you from another one of your posts. You explicitly said they'd be too good with it so they wouldn't get it, Shaman or not. Ergo, like anything else positive that we've seen or has been implied about this codex, you've found a baseless negative point to counter it.

Oh my god, a lesson in logic from the user who made the "Thousand Sons are dead..." topic before he had any defining evidence to support his claims that Rubricae would no longer see the table because a handful of new Tzaangor units were announced! Wow! I'm honoured!

.....Could it get any more ironic? Answer; yes it can! The same person made this post after not being proven correct at all!

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

I informed you thusly

I expect 1 paragraph apologies which include the phrases "I'm sorry", "you were right", and "i was wrong"

Am I actually reading this or did I accidentally snort some weed this morning? I'm not sure this is real, can someone slap me and wake me up?

Besides, here's a fun fact for you bub; I know almost as much about the stream as you, I got the most important details about the stream from other people. Ergo, your claim that I know "nothing" was and is still.....like most claims you've made in this thread.....wrong. I know all of the, you know, important stuff from the stream. Me not caring enough to watch a stream for all the pointless irrelevant events you bring up does not signify total lack of knowledge. However, being aware of our Deep Strike stratagem, the Mutaliths' basic stats, the damage potential of the Enlightened, the effects of some of the new psychic powers, the very presence of said new psychic powers, the teleporting Relic, the changes to Magnus' aura and his new preset Warlord Trait, etc....you know, stuff that will be relevant for everyone and not something that is unique to a single players' playing experience (I'm speaking of dice and tactics, stuff which changes on a game-to-game basis, whereas codex rules don't).

Again with the backtracking! Amazing! I'm shocked! Well, not that shocked.
You've been parroting that we will barely see Rubrics and Scarab Occult in favour of Tzaangors, a problem amplified in your mind by the addition of new Tzaangor units. This topic isn't solely about "muh narrative" and you know it, otherwise I wouldn't have the plethora of rules-related declarations from you about it to source from.

I mean....hey, wait a second, you made a post that says the exact opposite after you made this post I'm replying to! Self-contradiction alert!

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:


Were not talking about pther armies were talking about TS and whether Tzaangors will be better to take then Rubrics.

You *can* do 40 Rubrics and 11 Tzaangors. 40 Rubric marines runs less than 1000 points. You could take 2 Shamans and 9 Enlightened instead. Exchanging 30 Tzaangors for the 35 additional Rubric Marines that list could have used would have made the list different....which is exactly the point. It would have been a different list that does different things. They would have had to drop a few units to fit them in. 40 Rubrics are way harder to shift than 40 Tzaangors in most situations; even if they are tied on invulnerable saves (i.e. AP-3 or better and Damage greater than 1) the Rubrics still have better morale. Damage-wise, 40 Rubrics will punish pretty much any infantry unit they can touch, especially with Veterans of the Long War added in. The Tzaangors, on the other hand, do all their damage up close and personal. I've personally run 40-strong Rubric lists (I've actually ran a 50-strong one once too) and they are a lot of fun, just a bit unwieldy. I had Tzaangors to prop them up as well. I've gotten wins against high ranking ITC players with that type of list by playing smart and making the most of All is Dust. Weirdly, I wasn't just running 5 man Rubric units with Tzaangors and characters filling out the rest of my points like you claim. I wonder why.

Also, what? How does mentioning Deep Striking Pink Horrors, Tzaangors and Rubric Marines make you right? What? What? Deep Strike Pink Horrors + Rubric Marines to clear different types of chaff (Warptimed Rubric Marines with Warpflamers can deal with Rangers, whereas Pink Horrors can't, for example, but Pink Horrors are better against GEQs and probably MEQs). Then teleport (relic) Tzaangors forward and Warptime them into combat. One-two-punch. Alternatively, if you want to try and mimic the Bloodletter Bomb, Deep Strike the Tzaangors and Warptime them forward first. All those options us Thousand Sons players didn't have previously, which we have now thanks to this codex. Gee whiz!

Who cares? I don't, and you don't get my point, so I won't bother answering that.

What about him?

Also, I'm just going to randomly quote a few comments here which I take particular umbrage with and respond to them as I feel appropriate.

Even if you wanted to make the lore argument, SOT shouldn't have been affected by the Rubric, Discs are supposed to be for chosen of Tzeentch not plebs with bows, TS NEED CSM to operate thier vehicles thats what thier designed for, I could keep going.

Tzaangor Enlightened are the chosen of Tzeentch, though. Before you repeat the "but Tzaangors are chaff according to you!" argument, consider; a lowly Guardsmen might look like nothing, and that Company Commander may look like something, but ultimately, that Commander came from nothing because he was originally a Guardsman. The fluff of the Enlightened is that they are venerated among their beast-kind as the greatest and most successful of the Tzaangors who have proven themselves worthy of the adulation of Tzeentch, being rewarded thusly. They are still ultimately Tzaangors, but they are Tzaangors that figuratively stand head and shoulders above the rest of their debased kin thanks to their many accomplishments. Think of it like this; a Chaos Marauder is not as powerful as a Chaos Warrior, but one that proves him or herself becomes particularly blessed and venerated beyond regular Chaos Warriors, like Wulfric the Wanderer. Look at Enlightened and Shamans in that sense and the fact that they ride disks all of a sudden makes perfect sense. Besides, Ahriman and the Exalted Sorcerers ride Disks of Tzeentch too. If I'm not mistaken, the Chaos Index and previous editions had the option for Chaos Lords to ride Disks of Tzeentch.

The simple fact is they had two options expand rubrics a bit and make a Rubric Army or spend nothing and cram unsold models down our throats.

"Unsold models" is a bit of stretch, the Tzeentch Arcanites range sells like hot-cakes. The Enlightened are even sought after by 40K players looking for more Disks of Tzeentch to use with their Daemons and Thousand Sons.
If we want to look at it as just wanting to get even more cash out of an already successful range, consider this perspective as it applies to a lot of people; if you play both 40K and AoS, everything in the Arcanites range is compatible with 40K in some way. Some units have rules like the Tzaangors and Enlightened, and others can easily represent different units; Kairic Acolytes make perfect Tzeentch Cultists, their lack of guns is fine because in AoS they shoot sorcerous bolts that are explicitly missile weapons and not wizard powers rules-wise, so extrapolating that to autoguns or autopistols is fine provided you let people know about that detail. Ogroid Thaumaturges work well as Tzeentch Daemon Princes lacking wings, Gaunt Summoners and the Arcanite Sorcerer (the old WHFB model), the Magister would be a great Cultist Champion if you're using the Acolyte models, the Fatemaster can be a human shaman that is represented with the rules of the Tzaangor Shaman, the Curseling works potentially as a human Sorcerer that has been lavished with gifts or could be another unit champion for Cultists, etc and obviously all the Daemons are cross compatible. It's great for someone like me that already owns large amounts of all the armies present, obviously that's not the case for everyone but....and here's the important detail.

If you don't want to buy any of the new stuff or the Tzaangors in general, no-one is forcing you to. Until we see the codex, making an informed decision on the competitive nature of an all-Rubric (i.e. no mutants) Thousand Sons army is impossible. It's the detail that everyone in this thread keeps trying to make you aware of but you are being wilfully ignorant of it.

Yeah and a link to an AoS battle force with a seperate sprue upgrade

And this proves you right in the "Thousand Sons are dead" debate...how? We knew we weren't getting new power-armoured models. We did know we were getting new mutant models. It still doesn't explain how "Thousand Sons are dead" according to you.

Im sorry I couldn't hear you over the sound of me being right.

You made this in response to "we're getting 18 psychic powers". Now, to be fair, you did say you expect us to get one or two. However, you've also been saying it makes no difference because Aspiring Sorcerers will just blow themselves up...when anyone that's actually used Rubric Marines knows that's not actually the case. Besides, predicting we would get at least one new discipline isn't exactly a feat Nostrodamus would be proud of.

By the way, speaking of being "right" you've been saying recently that we've got over 20 stratagems per the stream, yet your earlier prediction in this thread was;

We are not going to get 10 strats unique to our army DG got 14 we will get probably 14 with the generic ones taking up 8.

It's good to be wrong in the right way, isn't it? That's what this thread is really about. Catharsis, being proven wrong but in the best way possible, discovering new things about yourself along the way.
Side-note, wait until we get the codex in hand before you declare that "Thousand Sons are dead" next time.

Because thats not the Army I was sold, I was sold an army of Rubrics lead by powerful Sorcerers.

Again, it would be like GW annocing the new Black Templars led by Psykers of the eldar faction.

Except that's....not at all what is going here.
Firstly, the "army you were sold" is the army you can still buy and play. You can happily play without ever touching anything mutated. No-one is forcing you to buy Tzaangors. Tzaangors have been a part of Thousand Sons lore from, what, 2nd Edition? Adding them back to the Thousand Sons is good for two reasons; it's a fluff-supported addition, and it gives Thousand Sons a new tool to use which they can benefit a lot from.

Secondly, how does Tzaangors - who are an established part of Thousand Sons lore - being added back to said Thousand Sons army invalidate lore in any way? The Tzaangors are the slave population of the Planet of Sorcerers, and we've known this for literal decades. How is it in any way equivalent to psykers from a xenos faction leading overtly zealous loyalist Space Marines?

Besides, you are the person that said this;

This, they can easily retcon the lore so they are able to at least maintain the numbers they have, hell watch this

Restored Sons - TS Rubrics which have been restored to their full selves, squads of 3 equip them with either Melee weapons or Heavy weapons, make them an Elites choice. Bam problem solved. they could even use the CSM box and just add some new items to it, you know like they did with the Tzaangors.

So...thematically you have a problem with Tzaangors who are an established part of Thousand Sons lore...but at the same time, you'd rather have Restored Thousand Sons who have been "cured" of the Rubric which is fluff destroying seeing as we know only Yvraine has been capable of such a feat (and promptly killed all of them)...but you are complaining about "Rubrics that people used to field" being dead....so you suggest non-Rubric Thousand Sons....My head hurts. I swear there must be a bong around here somewhere.

How am I wrong? Do you think they are going to drop the points of the AS now that they can cast Prescience? Or any of the other spells? No Rubrics will godown 2PPM more then likley AS and SOS will probably go up. With smite no longer avaliable we have to try and cast spells with Sorcs that have 1 and 2 wounds? Risking death with every roll? Sure then drop the points and you can take a bunch and have a bunch of single wound sorcs People wont do that. Other option buff AS and SOS to Pusedo Psyker give them full fledged spells 1 more wound and jack the points up to match. Either way bringing Rubrics/SOT becomes woefully inefficent.

This is it. This is where you lose all pretence of "thematically it ruins the army" or whatever other inane topic you are babbling about.
You made this thread because you are convinced beyond any shadow of a doubt that Rubric Marines will not be worth taking in the new codex, declaring as such without even acknowledging the possibility that you might be wrong when you had and still have zero evidence to support an outrageous claim. This is why this forum thinks this thread is a laughing stock and have been commenting as such.

You realize im saying none of that right?

What I am Saying is the Army of Rubrics that people used to field on the TT is dead. That is what I am saying.

Except that's what you literally said in the quote I just posted. It's telling that you can't even stick to the same solid argument.

You say the army of Rubrics we used to field on the tabletop is dead, yet nothing is stopping you from running the same army of Rubrics you used to field led by powerful Sorcerers and supported by whatever heretical forces you desire. Tzaangors just add more mutant options into the fray to support your Rubrics. Scarab Occult give you a Rubric unit that you never used to have. Exalted Sorcerers give you powerful Chaos Lord and Sorcerer hybrids that are thematic and designed to supplement your Rubrics. Magnus himself is available at your whim.

Prove anything from the previous paragraph wrong. You can't, because...as we've been saying all along...you lack the evidence to support your claim. By the way, Rubric Marines are better in 8th Edition than they were in 7th Edition, 6th Edition, 5th Edition and 4th Edition at bare minimum. We're also getting new ways to play them that we haven't had before, like Deep Striking them instead of having to foot-slog or use a pricey transport. It's almost like the new codex expands on the units that a Thousand Sons player wields to make them more useful and fun to play with.

Thanks for playing

You're doing the lord's work, son.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Zhan wrote:I don't know why you guys keep replying to Crimson at all. He clearly is just here to troll.
Every time you make a argument he will just say you don't deserve it because army X have it worse. If you argue army X need more stuff he will tell you to stop whining because squats have it worse. As if these are valid arguments at all.
We are here to discuss what TS need to be a fun and balanced army not to compare how poor/sad other armies have it.

If anyone's here to troll, I don't think it's Crimson.
The title of this thread is "Thousand Sons are dead" - if Crimson can prove another army has it worse, then it's incorrect. Besides - I don't think (prove me wrong here) that anyone's been saying "X have it worse" - I think it's been more "Thousand Sons aren't crippled, you don't need Tzaangors, you're in a better state than you were beforeand. You've lost nothing, only gained things, and the flavour of the faction is unchanged from what it was in 5th, barring you now have optional Tzaangor allies."

Oh i will not deny that he is rather salty about it and over dramatizing it but a lot of people do keep throwing the "you got models last year and now more options so stop crying" in his face which is not helpful/constructive in any way either.
Those are just statements to trigger him which leads to a angry reply and round the circle goes.

You are partially right. Compared to the index we will only gain stuff true. But we lost a LOT going from the 7th to the 8th edition. Imho more then any other army. We went from ~60 different powers (60 different ways to "equip" your rubrics/scarabs units ) to 1!
Not saying all the 7th edition stuff was working very well for various reasons but at least it you had options to choose and play around with.

Fun is subjective, but Tzaangors shouldn't really affect that, considering they're optional - your comments below about psychic warfare are good, but I fear it's more of an 8th issue than TS.
Balanced, we can't really tell without having the codex here. We can't say they'll be brilliant or terrible, but from what we can seen, they're clearly not as bad as the title makes out.

I know its more of a 8th edition problem then a TS one. In the 7th edition i was thinking of new ways to use the psychic powers for months. In the 8th edition it took me 2 games to grow bored with the entire psychic phase. Which is the main selling point of a TS army

I do not have a problem with the tzaangors in general. I think having tzaangors is a great way to display to compensate and display the near extinct nature of the thousand sons. And don't really see Sorcerer disagreeing with that.
But what sort annoys me too is that all the TS units are going to be the "lowly bolter unit" while the tzaangors are going to be our " special weapon unit".
And that honestly that doesn't really sit right with me. Thousand sons units should have more worth on the table-top then tzaangors. You should be able to sacrifice your tzaangor units on the table to save a TS unit and feel good about doing it

And if tzaangors are going to be our "special weapons unit" i don't really agree that they will be optional if you want to build a balanced TS list. (With balanced list i mean in the sense of being able to handle different situations. Because you're right talking about whats strong/weak is pointless before the codex drops)

Back to the topic:
Imo the TS suffer from the MW mechanic only in the psychic phase the most. In the 7th edition you had psychic powers for everything: anti-tank/anti-horde/mobility spells etc. If you have a psychic solution to all problems a full psyker army like the TS can work.
And this is also what appealed to me in the 7th. If thousands sons needed something done they turn to psychic powers.

But in the 8th edition we are limited to mortal wound spells. Which is very good against elite armies but not against armies with a high model count. So in order to keep these powers somewhat relevant, GW make these powers function as "sniper rifles" to take out characters.
Which i feel is rather out of place for psychic powers.

You also see it if you look at the tzeentch daemon codex. Which i think is a good showcase for what GW has in mind for psychic heavy armies:
1. Not a lot of changes to the psychic powers. Just expanded the list a bit but no real buffs to the excising ones.
2. The "targeted smites" require a WC of 8+ which makes it only effective sticking it on stuff with a with a +2 to cast (magnus/LoC/Kairos).
On the other hand magnus needs his +1 invul/warptime/-1 to hit so perhaps just stick Doombolt on some rubrics and hope you get lucky once or twice per game.
3. As for the question how to deal with high model count armies. Tzeentch got a lot of buffs in shooting/assault and i think we will be no different. And we also know how they will do it, in the form of tzaangors.

I don't think Tzaangors will be great at much - they'll fill some small gaps, but they offensively won't change too much.

They DO shift things in that they are a cheap, screening unit - that will be a new realm the TS can explore.

A possible reason as to why the TS don't have a masssive focus on psychic powers is because GW wants to avoid the psychic battery mess caused in 7th.

The cheap screening units we've had since last year and they where welcomed with open arms. Because these cannon fodder tzaangors goes hand in hand with fluff and what TS need.
But a tzaangor shaman that's going be hiding behind rubrics ? Also knowledge is power. A TS sharing warp knowledge with mutants? They killed hundreds of their brothers because they where Flesh Changing and they hated/feared it.
No way mutated creatures are very welcome in the ranks of the thousand sons (Just like on the interwebs )

I think they went waaaay to far with the whole psychic phase. Especially when you sell psychic focused armies.

Overall not too exciting stuff imho. Ironically to me they will become like every other 40k army. Mostly a shooting/assault army with some psychic support. They only difference is that we do not have/get a power armored model army.

Sorry, correct me if I'm misunderstanding, but "power armour"? What is it that Rubricae, Ahriman, Aspiring Sorcerors (and if you push the definition of power armour out to Space Marines armour, Scarab Occult) wear if not power armour?

Sorry my statement was inaccurate. i mend to say an exclusively "power armored" army. Because you are right we still have some power armored dudes. But that wasn't the point i was trying to make.
What i was trying say is that a thousand sons army is defined by it's use of almost exclusively psychic powers. This is how operate differently then any other (chaos) space marine legion/chapter out there. Adding a bunch of shooting/assault into the army to compensate for a limited psychic phase takes some of that uniqueness away. In other words, your thousand sons army will start to play similarly to other (C)SM armies, who use assault/shooting as base with some psychic support. You just use tzaangors models instead of power armored models. (Bit of a overstatement but i hope you get my drift)

look man if you can't be polite then please refrain from posting, if you have something you disagree with then attack my argument not me.

1.) I did not complain as you put it I pointed out that would be too good a model for 7 points in other words if you get that the models are going to go up in points, which they aren't going to do with our "chaff" unit.

2.) Just because you sell a lot of something doesn't mean you don't have overstock if I sell 1,000,000 units but ordered 10,000,000 I have overstock. Second it doesn't change the fact that they apparently all of 10,000 Pounds on development for the TS development.

3.) The rest of what you said is either outright false or totally irrational, I am just going to ignore you now.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
You can't build an army from unique units (Except SW I think)

Well, by technicality, yes, you can. Spearhead Detachments, Outrider Detachments, etc etc. Deathwing is an army you can field solo, as is Death Company (and have been able to be fielded as a standalone force for longer, I believe, than Rubricae).

Again - until very recently, you were never able to have a full TS army. This is a first, first time they've ever had a designated codex of their own.

Glad to see you agree. Before you say you don't agree understand that saying "me too" or " them too" means it's happening to them as well, not that it isn't happening.

If this is what I think you're referring to, my second paragraph, I think it was very clear that I was being sarcastic, and that I found the notion of SOT and RM being the same thing to be incorrect.

Take me out of context, but I want to make it very clear that I do not agree.

Check the options for RM and SOT then check the options for CSM and Chaos Termies. Note the difference in loadout options for the latter nad the lack of difference in the former.

I don't know what this is referring to, could you explain?

How should we decide who are TS then? Your method of anything that has the TS keyword on it? So A SM with the TS keyword is TS? How about a Grot? Eldar Guardian? Blood Claws? My method of thinking that if they were affected by the rubric THAT makes them TS.

I disagree. In the same way a BA unit with the BA keyword is BA. I don't care if it's generic, it's a valid unit.

Your other examples aren't even CSM - of course they don't. If it's in the TS codex, of course it's a TS. Unless you want to say Ultramarines Scouts aren't Ultramarines.

Chaff is a distraction desgined to draw enemy fire so you suffer less losses. Agreed? Ap- weapons will cause 1 model lost per 6 wounds done. 20 points. Ap- weapons will cause 4 models lost per 6 wounds done. 28 points. You lose more by bringing Tzaangors then Rubrics. They are not chaff.

I think I may have mixed up my usage of chaff and bubble wrap. Again, what you want to be doing is making sure the Tzaangors are intercepting and tying up that AP-2 firepower for the Rubricae.

Chosen as in leaders of Armies you know the people who used to be the only ones that had access to them, now Tzaangors have them? I thought Tzaangors were chaff? All of a sudden there super special?

I mean, that's like saying "Guardsmen and Company Commanders are like, the same thing. Why do Company Commanders get access to refractor fields?!" It's because these particular Tzaangors have been chosen by Tzeentch to ride their Disks. Again, it's in the same way that people arbitrarily decided that it's wrong to give my Captain a heavy bolter, despite having more authority than a Devastator Marine to carry it into battle.

Equipment be weird.

And you realize that is something they made up right? They could have just as easily said eh lets make a Psyker dread with the rules we already have and the model we already have, why not? Oh, cause it will hurt our birdman sales.

GW could have turned round and not given you anything at all. Also, I don't believe GW have a psyker dread - FW do, and they might get round to it. That's on them, not GW.

It's funny because your arguing that you agree with me with the fluff, the fluff is Hordes of Tzaangors a few Rubrics and powerful Sorcs leading them.

I don't see what you're arguing here.
You can have Tzaangor hordes guarding Rubricae. You can take all Rubric. Both are fluffy.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Check the options for RM and SOT then check the options for CSM and Chaos Termies. Note the difference in loadout options for the latter nad the lack of difference in the former.

I don't know what this is referring to, could you explain?

He's talking about how CSM terminators can be equipped in a myriad of ways with many different weapons, which ignores that CSM termies are the exception to the rule in the terminator world.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
[spoiler]look man if you can't be polite then please refrain from posting, if you have something you disagree with then attack my argument not me.

1.) I did not complain as you put it I pointed out that would be too good a model for 7 points in other words if you get that the models are going to go up in points, which they aren't going to do with our "chaff" unit.

2.) Just because you sell a lot of something doesn't mean you don't have overstock if I sell 1,000,000 units but ordered 10,000,000 I have overstock. Second it doesn't change the fact that they apparently all of 10,000 Pounds on development for the TS development.

3.) The rest of what you said is either outright false or totally irrational, I am just going to ignore you now.

I'm being just as polite as you are. You've been taking a condescending tone through most of this thread directed at anyone that disagrees with you.

"attack my argument not me"

I literally just showcased everyone irrefutable evidence that you've not only been contradicting yourself incessantly, you also have no legs to stand on when it comes to the premise of this very thread. Technically, I guess I didn't "attack" your argument. I destroyed it. I killed it so hard that you're now falling on the "refrain from posting" tactic when you yourself have been notably snarky. Self contradiction and hypocrisy goes hand in hand with making declarative statements in a factual tone when tangible evidence either suggests otherwise or is unavailable.

To cut it short, this thread is stupid. I don't think you are stupid. I think you made a silly proclamation without justifiable merit to said claim based solely on the few scraps of information we received about a book, a book that we still don't know everything about nearly a fortnight after you made said statement. I think you are choosing to fall on your sword rather than admit that maybe, just maybe, you erred in making this thread. I think you really need to consider what details we have versus what details we lack, then take a chill pill and wait for more information before proceeding with the "Thousand Sons are dead" narrative. That's all we ask.

1) There we go with the contradiction. You said;

What I said was they wont give a +1 to hit aura for the Tzaangor Shaman because they wont tie it to something that can't be taken away easily, so I was right.

To which I pointed out that you also said;

“your not getting a model that costs 7 points has 2 S4 Ap-1 attacks and hits on 2”

So which is it? Mind you, you are saying said model would be too good in a game where Bloodletters exist, the model that, on the charge, gets 2 S5 AP-3 attacks and hits on 2s in units of 20 or more....and is the same price as Tzaangors.

2) Firstly, I know how stock works. I was pointing out to you that the theory that they gave these units 40K rules as a direct money-grab isn't necessarily accurate, because you could argue the opposite way and say Tzeentch players get the most cross-compatible kits of any army in the game, increasing their value for players. The fact that those kits (bar the Mutalith) sell so well as-is decreases the likelihood of it being a straight money grab, and you can't in good conscience say they have deigned to "cram unsold models down our throats" when nobody is forcing you to buy them.

3) Outright false You've misreported that Enlightened had 1 Wound and Mutaliths had no invulnerable save. You said we won't get more than 14 stratagems, that new Tzaangor options being added to the only army that makes use of them in the narrative is somehow thematically dissonant, that the Enlightened shouldn't ride disks because they are "plebs with bows" (which is a multi-faceted inaccuracy seeing as 2 of their 3 build options don't use bows, and there are narrative justifications for them riding Disks), that I somehow know nothing about the stream because I got the information second hand (which makes no logical sense), that you can't do 40 Rubrics and 11 Tzaangors in an army (even if we are talking specifically about the list used in the stream, nothing was stopping the player from using 40 Rubrics and 11 Tzaangors, he could've changed his list and dropped some units to compensate, just because he chose not to doesn't mean he was incapable of doing so), and that's just in the last few posts. Let's go back to post number one, shall we? You said;

Now with the changes to smite bringing any more than one or two rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be totally useless, because you will be paying a premium to have access to an ability which you will almost never be able to use even if needed. This means that bringing rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be almost useless compared too bringing the cheaper Tzzangors.

Which we know for a fact is wrong because the codex circumvents the Smite issue by allowing our lesser psykers access to psychic disciplines. We also know for a fact that "bringing rubric Marines or Scarab occult terminators will be almost useless" is a baseless claim because you lack the sufficient evidence to back up said claim.

You also said;

Long live the Tzzentch Gor army

This is pretty much the last nail in the coffin, ironically coming with the Codex which seems fitting I guess.

Even though we've learned that we have ways to teleport and Deep Strike our infantry since you made this post, something that massively helps out Rubric Marines. It's also looking likely - but not guaranteed - that Rubrics and Scarabs will get some type of points drop based on the points extrapolation I did of the Thousand Sons players' list. We also assuredly get Veterans of the Long War in our codex, a stratagem that dramatically improves the efficiency of Rubric Marines and Scarab Occult in the Shooting phase, and we no longer need to take a Chaos Space Marine detachment - which could be, you know, narrative-breaking - to access it.

In fact, let's just go one step back.....to the very first thing anyone noticed about this thread.

Thousand Sons are dead...

Prove it. Prove it.

Speaking of "totally irrational", umm, have you read your own posts in this thread? Were you thinking rationally when you made this thread? When the core conceit of the topic you created is the laughing stock of the forum currently, it's probably not the best idea to suggest others are irrational.


If you ignore me, that's cool. I look forward to reasonable discussion from you in the Thousand Sons tactics thread.

Daedalus81 wrote:

Chaff is a distraction desgined to draw enemy fire so you suffer less losses. Agreed? Ap- weapons will cause 1 model lost per 6 wounds done. 20 points. Ap- weapons will cause 4 models lost per 6 wounds done. 28 points. You lose more by bringing Tzaangors then Rubrics. They are not chaff.

Some people use chaff and bubble wrap interchangeably. In TS Tzaangors are bubble wrap not chaff. Their main purpose being to provide a distance buffer between rubrics and incoming deepstrikers.

Keeping your back line from being easily infiltrated also allows you to focus on keeping your rubrics shooting instead of spreading them out to push the 9" bubble.

Even as bubble wrap they aren't very good as they can be shot down by small arms very easily and are relativity expensive. Guard are almost half their cost. Grots are 3 points.

Tzaangors are too expensive for that they need to be used in an offensive manner to keep your opponent on his back foot. Look how Eddie uses his Tzaangors he DSs them in and ties up two units,

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Even as bubble wrap they aren't very good as they can be shot down by small arms very easily and are relativity expensive. Guard are almost half their cost. Grots are 3 points.

Tzaangors are too expensive for that they need to be used in an offensive manner to keep your opponent on his back foot. Look how Eddie uses his Tzaangors he DSs them in and ties up two units,

If you just expect them to die then, yes, use cultists like Eddie in the backfield. I much prefer to screen with Tzaangors as I move forward, because they CAN fight and for only 3 points more than a cultist I get T4 5++ S4 AP1.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Check the options for RM and SOT then check the options for CSM and Chaos Termies. Note the difference in loadout options for the latter nad the lack of difference in the former.

I don't know what this is referring to, could you explain?

He's talking about how CSM terminators can be equipped in a myriad of ways with many different weapons, which ignores that CSM termies are the exception to the rule in the terminator world.

Which doesn't refute me CSM Termies ARE the exception, SM get 3 different types; Assualt, Tartaros, and regular Termies, basic things like Weapons choice are very different for Termies compared to a Tac squad. Termies can take all Combi weapons ours can't the only thing they can take is inferno combi-bolter. SOT are LITERALLY two Rubrics smashed together with a power sword and a 2+ save. Same type of shots, same number of shots, same number of attacks, same number of wounds, almost the same armor save, and Power Sword attacks. They have access to a missile launcher, and die JUST AS FAST to things like OC plasma, they fill the same role.

Still unsure why there are no chaos cataphractii or tartoros termies, just the normal ones, never mind the god specific ones, just standards

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Even as bubble wrap they aren't very good as they can be shot down by small arms very easily and are relativity expensive. Guard are almost half their cost. Grots are 3 points.

Tzaangors are too expensive for that they need to be used in an offensive manner to keep your opponent on his back foot. Look how Eddie uses his Tzaangors he DSs them in and ties up two units,

If you just expect them to die then, yes, use cultists like Eddie in the backfield. I much prefer to screen with Tzaangors as I move forward, because they CAN fight and for only 3 points more than a cultist I get T4 5++ S4 AP1.

Except if you are just looking for a 9 in screen your better off with cultists, they are cheaper, and with Weaver of Fate have almost the same save, and you save yourself 90 points which nets you a unit of Tzaangors or 10 more Tzaangors added to a unit you already have.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
How should we decide who are TS then? Your method of anything that has the TS keyword on it? So A SM with the TS keyword is TS? How about a Grot? Eldar Guardian? Blood Claws? My method of thinking that if they were affected by the rubric THAT makes them TS.

Chosen as in leaders of Armies you know the people who used to be the only ones that had access to them, now Tzaangors have them? I thought Tzaangors were chaff? All of a sudden there super special? And you realize that is something they made up right? They could have just as easily said eh lets make a Psyker dread with the rules we already have and the model we already have, why not? Oh, cause it will hurt our birdman sales. It's funny because your arguing that you agree with me with the fluff, the fluff is Hordes of Tzaangors a few Rubrics and powerful Sorcs leading them.

What I am Saying is the Army of Rubrics that people used to field on the TT is dead. That is what I am saying..

Addressing these three points in order:

A thousand son marine is either a sorcerer or a rubric yes. But it may not have a specific rubric (or even psyker) rule, if it doesn't make sense. For example, having rubric marines pilot a predator won't suddenly make the predator harder to kill, or more stable when moving. Helbrute is probably the same situation, though arguably it could be former psykers pilot them, and the negative effects of poor quality chaos helbrutes caused them to go insane and lose their ability to actively utilize their psychic powers. Both make a certain amount of sense.

This is the models rules thing at play again, even if they hadn't added gors you 99% weren't getting a special dreadnought with psychic powers, and even with them I still consider it possible, if very unlikely, they decide to splash some special rule in the helbrute.

You can still field an army of rubrics. It's an awful idea and you'll likely lose, but that's been true in every edition rubrics have existed in. An entire army of rubrics was always an awful idea and would cause you to lose. Even mostly rubrics would. Rubrics were a unit you took a couple of and moved on. This is in no way new. If anything, taking lots of rubrics is less punishing than it has been in previous editions.

 Formosa wrote:
Still unsure why there are no chaos cataphractii or tartoros termies, just the normal ones, never mind the god specific ones, just standards

I think it was a mistake to give different marks of terminator armour different rules. They should just be an aesthetic choice, like power armour marks. As for why chaos terminator models don't wear older types of armour, probably because the kit is damn old, and IIRC there were no cataphractii or tartaros terminators when it was designed. If they ever redo the kit, it might make more sense to make them cataphractii though.

 Crimson wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Still unsure why there are no chaos cataphractii or tartoros termies, just the normal ones, never mind the god specific ones, just standards

I think it was a mistake to give different marks of terminator armour different rules. They should just be an aesthetic choice, like power armour marks. As for why chaos terminator models don't wear older types of armour, probably because the kit is damn old, and IIRC there were no cataphractii or tartaros terminators when it was designed. If they ever redo the kit, it might make more sense to make them cataphractii though.

Thats a good IRL answer to be sure, in fluff though, cant see why they havent ported them over, loyalists get them???

 Formosa wrote:


Thats a good IRL answer to be sure, in fluff though, cant see why they havent ported them over, loyalists get them???

Yeah, I agree, it really doesn't make much sense.

 Formosa wrote:
Still unsure why there are no chaos cataphractii or tartoros termies, just the normal ones, never mind the god specific ones, just standards

there are in a way though, the death guard terminators are all cataphracti, and the rubric termies are clearly tarantos. So I THIIINK GW might be trying to use the differant terminator marks to give each of the differant traitor legions it's own look. still, would be nice to see generic CSMs given some options. could even limit it to legions so Iron warriors have to take cataphracti, etc.

Every one crying about the tzanngors or what ever on this codex. Put you stuff on eBay so I can buy it. Wow.

SilverAlien wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
How should we decide who are TS then? Your method of anything that has the TS keyword on it? So A SM with the TS keyword is TS? How about a Grot? Eldar Guardian? Blood Claws? My method of thinking that if they were affected by the rubric THAT makes them TS.

Chosen as in leaders of Armies you know the people who used to be the only ones that had access to them, now Tzaangors have them? I thought Tzaangors were chaff? All of a sudden there super special? And you realize that is something they made up right? They could have just as easily said eh lets make a Psyker dread with the rules we already have and the model we already have, why not? Oh, cause it will hurt our birdman sales. It's funny because your arguing that you agree with me with the fluff, the fluff is Hordes of Tzaangors a few Rubrics and powerful Sorcs leading them.

What I am Saying is the Army of Rubrics that people used to field on the TT is dead. That is what I am saying..

Addressing these three points in order:

A thousand son marine is either a sorcerer or a rubric yes. But it may not have a specific rubric (or even psyker) rule, if it doesn't make sense. For example, having rubric marines pilot a predator won't suddenly make the predator harder to kill, or more stable when moving. Helbrute is probably the same situation, though arguably it could be former psykers pilot them, and the negative effects of poor quality chaos helbrutes caused them to go insane and lose their ability to actively utilize their psychic powers. Both make a certain amount of sense.

This is the models rules thing at play again, even if they hadn't added gors you 99% weren't getting a special dreadnought with psychic powers, and even with them I still consider it possible, if very unlikely, they decide to splash some special rule in the helbrute.

You can still field an army of rubrics. It's an awful idea and you'll likely lose, but that's been true in every edition rubrics have existed in. An entire army of rubrics was always an awful idea and would cause you to lose. Even mostly rubrics would. Rubrics were a unit you took a couple of and moved on. This is in no way new. If anything, taking lots of rubrics is less punishing than it has been in previous editions.

See that's my point right now I DO field almost an army of Rubrics and I win, not every game but I win. Against people who do not like to lose.

Yeah see, that's either skill difference, luck, or your opponent running a list you counter, because an all rubric list isn't particularly impressive (I'd honestly say it's hot garbage myself). You'll still be able to do that post codex more than likely.

 xeen wrote:
Every one crying about the tzanngors or what ever on this codex. Put you stuff on eBay so I can buy it. Wow.

I love reading peoples comments about things that aren't happening and haven't happened. Nobody is bitching about Tzaangors.

SilverAlien wrote:
Yeah see, that's either skill difference, luck, or your opponent running a list you counter, because an all rubric list isn't particularly impressive (I'd honestly say it's hot garbage myself). You'll still be able to do that post codex more than likely.

Almost, not all, still have other things, Cultists, Tzaangors, but 1106 points of my army right now is spend on Rubrics alone. (Sorry had to double check)

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
Yeah see, that's either skill difference, luck, or your opponent running a list you counter, because an all rubric list isn't particularly impressive (I'd honestly say it's hot garbage myself). You'll still be able to do that post codex more than likely.

Almost, not all, still have other things, Cultists, Tzaangors, but 1106 points of my army right now is spend on Rubrics alone. (Sorry had to double check)

And I"m 15-3 with Thousand Sons. My army consists of:

5 Rubrics, 5 Scarabs, 1 Termie Sorc, 1 DP, 1 Helbrute, 1 Helturkey, 30 Tzaangor, 1 Pred.

Not particularly Thousand Son'ish if you ask me. It's why I boxed them up till the codex hits.... My Thousand Sons proper units didn't really do jack all.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
Yeah see, that's either skill difference, luck, or your opponent running a list you counter, because an all rubric list isn't particularly impressive (I'd honestly say it's hot garbage myself). You'll still be able to do that post codex more than likely.

Almost, not all, still have other things, Cultists, Tzaangors, but 1106 points of my army right now is spend on Rubrics alone. (Sorry had to double check)

My point still stands, even for index tsons that's an exceptionally mediocre army so I wouldn't worry, if you can win with that you'll be fine moving forward.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:


Which doesn't refute me CSM Termies ARE the exception, SM get 3 different types; Assualt, Tartaros, and regular Termies, basic things like Weapons choice are very different for Termies compared to a Tac squad. Termies can take all Combi weapons ours can't the only thing they can take is inferno combi-bolter. SOT are LITERALLY two Rubrics smashed together with a power sword and a 2+ save. Same type of shots, same number of shots, same number of attacks, same number of wounds, almost the same armor save, and Power Sword attacks. They have access to a missile launcher, and die JUST AS FAST to things like OC plasma, they fill the same role.

We literally just got our first terminator kit. In the history of the game. To expect the same number of kits at Space Marines is a bit much being that we're a subset of a faction.

And they are double the shots and wounds. Not that it matters. Having their own deepstrike changes their role considerably. And aside from CSM SOT carry the most heavy fire power of just about any other terminator squad out there - two heavies in a 5 man w/ no move penalty, combi-bolters are all AP2, and a sorcerer.

In any case SM termies are static like SOT.

Terminators : storm bolter and pf or cf; one can take AC, Cyclone, or HF.
Assault Terminators : Either dual LC or TH/SS.
Cataphracti : storm bolter and pf; a HF option; and the ability to get CF or LC.
Tartaros : similar to Cataphracti, but with an option for a "plasma gun".

None of these units can slap a combi-melta/flamer/plasma in place of the combi-bolter like CSM. Or options for any standard power weapon.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:


Except if you are just looking for a 9 in screen your better off with cultists, they are cheaper, and with Weaver of Fate have almost the same save, and you save yourself 90 points which nets you a unit of Tzaangors or 10 more Tzaangors added to a unit you already have.

Why are you applying WoF to one, but not the other? "Almost as good" = half as good or one third if we're applying all the variables equally.

10 Tzaangors, 70 points
20 Cultists, 80 points

10 S4 power sword wounds kills 2.5 (18 points) Tzaangors and 5.5 cultists (22 points). This puts Tzaangors in risk of 1-2 from morale and the cultists with up to 6.
30 S4 AP0 wounds kills 7.5 Tzaangors and 16.6 cultists. The cultists will be completely gone. The tzaangors have a slim chance to stay.

The reason cultists are "good" in CSM lists is because of the stratagem, morale protection, and full reroll to hits in melee. We don't have any of those barring possibly the stratagem.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:


Which doesn't refute me CSM Termies ARE the exception, SM get 3 different types; Assualt, Tartaros, and regular Termies, basic things like Weapons choice are very different for Termies compared to a Tac squad. Termies can take all Combi weapons ours can't the only thing they can take is inferno combi-bolter. SOT are LITERALLY two Rubrics smashed together with a power sword and a 2+ save. Same type of shots, same number of shots, same number of attacks, same number of wounds, almost the same armor save, and Power Sword attacks. They have access to a missile launcher, and die JUST AS FAST to things like OC plasma, they fill the same role.

We literally just got our first terminator kit. In the history of the game. To expect the same number of kits at Space Marines is a bit much being that we're a subset of a faction.

1 just 1 not 5 not 10 not even 2, 1, that was what I was expecting, not Termies either or anything crazy I figured they would do some rehash shenanigans but not a single Rubric variant unit?

Daedalus81 wrote:
And they are double the shots and wounds. Not that it matters. Having their own deepstrike changes their role considerably. And aside from CSM SOT carry the most heavy fire power of just about any other terminator squad out there - two heavies in a 5 man w/ no move penalty, combi-bolters are all AP2, and a sorcerer.

Yes, except when the Codex Drops we know Rubrics will have the same ability.

Daedalus81 wrote:
In any case SM termies are static like SOT.

Terminators : storm bolter and pf or cf; one can take AC, Cyclone, or HF.
Assault Terminators : Either dual LC or TH/SS.
Cataphracti : storm bolter and pf; a HF option; and the ability to get CF or LC.
Tartaros : similar to Cataphracti, but with an option for a "plasma gun".

None of these units can slap a combi-melta/flamer/plasma in place of the combi-bolter like CSM. Or options for any standard power weapon.

LC do not do the same job as TH/SS or CF there is variety its just all CC oriented, where as I have 1 option Inferno combi-bolters and Power Swords.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:


Except if you are just looking for a 9 in screen your better off with cultists, they are cheaper, and with Weaver of Fate have almost the same save, and you save yourself 90 points which nets you a unit of Tzaangors or 10 more Tzaangors added to a unit you already have.

Why are you applying WoF to one, but not the other? "Almost as good" = half as good or one third if we're applying all the variables equally.

10 Tzaangors, 70 points
20 Cultists, 80 points

10 S4 power sword wounds kills 2.5 (18 points) Tzaangors and 5.5 cultists (22 points). This puts Tzaangors in risk of 1-2 from morale and the cultists with up to 6.
30 S4 AP0 wounds kills 7.5 Tzaangors and 16.6 cultists. The cultists will be completely gone. The tzaangors have a slim chance to stay.

The reason cultists are "good" in CSM lists is because of the stratagem, morale protection, and full reroll to hits in melee. We don't have any of those barring possibly the stratagem.

If you apply to both you get 21 poitns lost for every 20 of cultists, except 20 cultists can tarpit a Dred for almost the entire game, or be forced to fall back, you dont want Tzaangors in that situation because he will cut through them in 3 turns tops.

We will have to disagree on this I think Tzaangors are and offensive weapon and you think they are wrap.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Yes, except when the Codex Drops we know Rubrics will have the same ability.

An ability through an artifact is not an ability explicitly owned by rubrics. You can say rubrics are now "as good" as terminators, but then omit that terminators can deepstrike and then redeploy, which is even more useful.

LC do not do the same job as TH/SS or CF there is variety its just all CC oriented, where as I have 1 option Inferno combi-bolters and Power Swords.

Yes, there is more CC variety and on the other side SoT have more heavy options.

If you apply to both you get 21 poitns lost for every 20 of cultists, except 20 cultists can tarpit a Dred for almost the entire game, or be forced to fall back, you dont want Tzaangors in that situation because he will cut through them in 3 turns tops.

We will have to disagree on this I think Tzaangors are and offensive weapon and you think they are wrap.

Err, no? I did the math above. Tzaangors are both simultaneously wrap and good in combat.

A dreadnought swinging at 4++ tzaangors kills 1.11 (7.7 points) and 6++ cultists it kills 1.85 (7.4 points). There is no way a dreadnought is tearing through Tzaangors in 3 turns, because it is in no way anti-horde. In fact a Tzaangor does 0.22 wounds and a cultist 0.07 to a dreadnought making the Tzaangor just as good at taking hits and three times better at dealing damage for less than double the cost.

I think people are getting their terms mixed up. Bubblewrap, to me, is more something you take to just create a zone where enemies can't deep strike. You don't provide them any buffs, you don't expect them to live for more than a turn. In that instance, you take cultists, because they cost 4 points vs 7, plain and simple. You string like 20 of them out in a max coherency daisy chain 18" away from your main force and you create a 27" anti deep strike bubble. All they are is a body.

If you want them to fight, at all, you take tzaangors, you give them units intending to buff them, and you take at least 30, probably 40 with the new unit size cap. You keep them a little closer to your front line, so that you can fall them back from any unit too hot for them to handle and your gunline can still be in range to beat them down.

The units are good for two different things in that instnace. If you get second turn against a real alpha strike list like stealers/alpha zerkers, your tzaangors are toast whether you have 20 or 40, and then you've spent a load of points on something that could have just as well been 20 cultists for all the difference it made. if you're up against more of a TAC list the tzaangors are better because the cultists can just get swept aside by a few tactical marines.

the_scotsman wrote:
I think people are getting their terms mixed up. Bubblewrap, to me, is more something you take to just create a zone where enemies can't deep strike. You don't provide them any buffs, you don't expect them to live for more than a turn. In that instance, you take cultists, because they cost 4 points vs 7, plain and simple. You string like 20 of them out in a max coherency daisy chain 18" away from your main force and you create a 27" anti deep strike bubble. All they are is a body.

If you want them to fight, at all, you take tzaangors, you give them units intending to buff them, and you take at least 30, probably 40 with the new unit size cap. You keep them a little closer to your front line, so that you can fall them back from any unit too hot for them to handle and your gunline can still be in range to beat them down.

The units are good for two different things in that instnace. If you get second turn against a real alpha strike list like stealers/alpha zerkers, your tzaangors are toast whether you have 20 or 40, and then you've spent a load of points on something that could have just as well been 20 cultists for all the difference it made. if you're up against more of a TAC list the tzaangors are better because the cultists can just get swept aside by a few tactical marines.

Any berzerker alpha is going to charge the cultists and the units behind it and requires a more thoughtful deployment. It's a risk you take at list building for a small number of lists you might face like it.

Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I think people are getting their terms mixed up. Bubblewrap, to me, is more something you take to just create a zone where enemies can't deep strike. You don't provide them any buffs, you don't expect them to live for more than a turn. In that instance, you take cultists, because they cost 4 points vs 7, plain and simple. You string like 20 of them out in a max coherency daisy chain 18" away from your main force and you create a 27" anti deep strike bubble. All they are is a body.

If you want them to fight, at all, you take tzaangors, you give them units intending to buff them, and you take at least 30, probably 40 with the new unit size cap. You keep them a little closer to your front line, so that you can fall them back from any unit too hot for them to handle and your gunline can still be in range to beat them down.

The units are good for two different things in that instnace. If you get second turn against a real alpha strike list like stealers/alpha zerkers, your tzaangors are toast whether you have 20 or 40, and then you've spent a load of points on something that could have just as well been 20 cultists for all the difference it made. if you're up against more of a TAC list the tzaangors are better because the cultists can just get swept aside by a few tactical marines.

Any berzerker alpha is going to charge the cultists and the units behind it and requires a more thoughtful deployment. It's a risk you take at list building for a small number of lists you might face like it.

Doubt it. The cultists will die to a stiff breeze, but not in the movement phase. I can have up to 18" between my conga line of cultists and my Tsons gunline and still block deep strike. The best they can do after butchering my cultists is 6" of movement (3" consolidate, then 3" pile for the second attack, but they don't get to swing so no second consolidate).

Plus, bezerker melee alpha is scarcely the only alpha strike out there where I would find a solid bubble useful. They keep me out of plasma double tap range, they keep me safe from bloodletter bomb, gsc, tyranids, saint celestine if I deploy correctly...

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Yes, except when the Codex Drops we know Rubrics will have the same ability.

An ability through an artifact is not an ability explicitly owned by rubrics. You can say rubrics are now "as good" as terminators, but then omit that terminators can deepstrike and then redeploy, which is even more useful.

LC do not do the same job as TH/SS or CF there is variety its just all CC oriented, where as I have 1 option Inferno combi-bolters and Power Swords.

Yes, there is more CC variety and on the other side SoT have more heavy options.

If you apply to both you get 21 poitns lost for every 20 of cultists, except 20 cultists can tarpit a Dred for almost the entire game, or be forced to fall back, you dont want Tzaangors in that situation because he will cut through them in 3 turns tops.

We will have to disagree on this I think Tzaangors are and offensive weapon and you think they are wrap.

Err, no? I did the math above. Tzaangors are both simultaneously wrap and good in combat.

A dreadnought swinging at 4++ tzaangors kills 1.11 (7.7 points) and 6++ cultists it kills 1.85 (7.4 points). There is no way a dreadnought is tearing through Tzaangors in 3 turns, because it is in no way anti-horde. In fact a Tzaangor does 0.22 wounds and a cultist 0.07 to a dreadnought making the Tzaangor just as good at taking hits and three times better at dealing damage for less than double the cost.

There 6++ now they were 5++ with WoF.

I'm looking at the Index right now and the Aura of Dark Glory ability is a 5+ invuln.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
I'm looking at the Index right now and the Aura of Dark Glory ability is a 5+ invuln.

What's this referring to?

Aura of Dark Glory is the ability that gives tzaangors their invuln. I may have misunderstood what your post was referring to? I dunno.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Aura of Dark Glory is the ability that gives tzaangors their invuln. I may have misunderstood what your post was referring to? I dunno.

No Weaver of Fates used to give 5++ to units without an invul save, but they FAQed it (today I think) to only give +1.

Using Cultists would give them a 5++ re-rolls 1 puts them at right about 6 in 10 lost, Tzaangors with the same buffs come out to 4 in 10 lost. 28 points for Tzaangors lost for every 24 points of Cultists lost.

So serious question here, what's the benefit of taking a ten man rubric over 5 man occult squad? It seems like all around the occult are better and fill the same role as the rubric. Occult pay a little bit more, like 15 points but then gain a hellfire missle rack, better armor, power swords, and deep strike. All while still haveing spells, all is dust, a soul reaper, 10 wounds, and the same number of inferno bolters shots.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
So serious question here, what's the benefit of taking a ten man rubric over 5 man occult squad? It seems like all around the occult are better and fill the same role as the rubric. Occult pay a little bit more, like 15 points but then gain a hellfire missle rack, better armor, power swords, and deep strike. All while still haveing spells, all is dust, a soul reaper, 10 wounds, and the same number of inferno bolters shots.

its because they are multi wound models, so shooting multi damage weapons at them becomes perfect.

12 OC PR shots (assuming MEQ with Reroll 1s) will kill 5 Rubrics, same exact thing will kill 5 SOT.

pay 2x the points for essentially the same exact durability when it comes to effective fire.

Not EXACTLY the same durability.
2+ versus 3+ after all.
If whatever hits them is AP2 or worse, the scarabs has a better save. AP3 if you benefit from cover.
This extends to any AP enabled 1W attacks (primaris, eldar, some nids, admech, other TS, etc) are more of a threat to rubrics than to scarabs.

There are many cases where the scarab actually IS twice as though than the rubric. still true what you said about things being good against rubrics are twice as good against scarabs-but if your entire army is rubrics and scarabs-the enemy is running out of these guns.

When it comes to offensive power, the scarabs are slightly ahead in shooting (thanks to the missiles, who gives much needed S8), and miles ahead in CC (where rubrics are virtually disabled, the scarabs can dish out a bit)

Id say, the two are very similar. Rubrics do kina win over in the durability section but scarabs got an edge when it comes to dealing damage.
Plus, they have native DS. so no burning CP to DS them.

I'd say rubrics as it stands are a bit better, but not by far.
Come the codex, we'll see how it changes. I suspect the gap will grow in favor of rubrics though.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Aura of Dark Glory is the ability that gives tzaangors their invuln. I may have misunderstood what your post was referring to? I dunno.

No Weaver of Fates used to give 5++ to units without an invul save, but they FAQed it (today I think) to only give +1.

Using Cultists would give them a 5++ re-rolls 1 puts them at right about 6 in 10 lost, Tzaangors with the same buffs come out to 4 in 10 lost. 28 points for Tzaangors lost for every 24 points of Cultists lost.

Checked FAQ and codex.

It only says to replace sentence 3, which now limits the save to a 3++
Sentence 4 is where it grants a 5++ to a unit with no invuln

So we are talking rhetorically here ? The TS are not really dead, but dead in the fluff? They should be dead in the fluffs.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Not EXACTLY the same durability.
2+ versus 3+ after all.
If whatever hits them is AP2 or worse, the scarabs has a better save. AP3 if you benefit from cover.
This extends to any AP enabled 1W attacks (primaris, eldar, some nids, admech, other TS, etc) are more of a threat to rubrics than to scarabs.

There are many cases where the scarab actually IS twice as though than the rubric. still true what you said about things being good against rubrics are twice as good against scarabs-but if your entire army is rubrics and scarabs-the enemy is running out of these guns.

When it comes to offensive power, the scarabs are slightly ahead in shooting (thanks to the missiles, who gives much needed S8), and miles ahead in CC (where rubrics are virtually disabled, the scarabs can dish out a bit)

Id say, the two are very similar. Rubrics do kina win over in the durability section but scarabs got an edge when it comes to dealing damage.
Plus, they have native DS. so no burning CP to DS them.

I'd say rubrics as it stands are a bit better, but not by far.
Come the codex, we'll see how it changes. I suspect the gap will grow in favor of rubrics though.

Until we get our claws on the Codex at that point, SOT pull ahead, by a lot.

Glamour is going to put them head and shoulders above Rubrics, especially when it comes to being able to take advantage of cover and LOS.

Its looking like 1 30 man squad of Tzaangors 2 10 man squads of Tzaangors, 2 Rhinos to get them to the where they need to be, 1 Shaman on a Disc, 10 Man SOT squad, and 1 Caster (Magnus/Ahriman) to get off the important spells. that is only 1250 points. Gives you solid anti-horde, some anti-tank, lots of anti elite, with maybe some anti air, depending on strats.

30 man squad gets dropped in first, SOT DS in just behind them, Tzaangors in Rhinos shore up the Tzaangor line where needed, Ahriman casts Prescience and Weaver of Fates on the SOT making them a turret, then Throws out a smite or something, SOT smite, Shaman smites. 1CP spent


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
So we are talking rhetorically here ? The TS are not really dead, but dead in the fluff? They should be dead in the fluffs.

the Static durable gunline army is dead.

How exactly does glamor effect SOT different than rubrics though?

 BoomWolf wrote:
How exactly does glamor effect SOT different than rubrics though?

Mostly because the footprint. Being able to take max advantage of the spell means you want max squad size, 10 models in cover is doable, 20 not so much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 backlash13 wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Aura of Dark Glory is the ability that gives tzaangors their invuln. I may have misunderstood what your post was referring to? I dunno.

No Weaver of Fates used to give 5++ to units without an invul save, but they FAQed it (today I think) to only give +1.

Using Cultists would give them a 5++ re-rolls 1 puts them at right about 6 in 10 lost, Tzaangors with the same buffs come out to 4 in 10 lost. 28 points for Tzaangors lost for every 24 points of Cultists lost.

Checked FAQ and codex.

It only says to replace sentence 3, which now limits the save to a 3++
Sentence 4 is where it grants a 5++ to a unit with no invuln

Okay good, that's how I have been playing it anyway. Not sure why it needed to be put in the max 3++ has always been a thing.

If its true you arent paying the premium for the sorcerer, (as said in the other thread by a gent) and then you end up with the strategem AND spell access.... SOT are looking mighty nice right about now.

And bare in mind there *was* a rumor regarding their save becoming an innate 4++ (easier to give out better saves when the re-roll 1's invul aura is gone)

Ahriman21 wrote:
If its true you arent paying the premium for the sorcerer, (as said in the other thread by a gent) and then you end up with the strategem AND spell access.... SOT are looking mighty nice right about now.

And bare in mind there *was* a rumor regarding their save becoming an innate 4++ (easier to give out better saves when the re-roll 1's invul aura is gone)

Well, All is Dust gets them to a 4++ against D1. I doubt they'll go 4++ with a chance for 3++.

Why not?
How many things are D1 and have AP better than 2 anyway?
Non-overcharge plasma, "rending" attacks, anything else?

It won't come up all that often. and having 4++ base would make them much more viable (as the same guns you want to cancel out AiD also take down their two wounds)

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Not EXACTLY the same durability.
2+ versus 3+ after all.
If whatever hits them is AP2 or worse, the scarabs has a better save. AP3 if you benefit from cover.
This extends to any AP enabled 1W attacks (primaris, eldar, some nids, admech, other TS, etc) are more of a threat to rubrics than to scarabs.

There are many cases where the scarab actually IS twice as though than the rubric. still true what you said about things being good against rubrics are twice as good against scarabs-but if your entire army is rubrics and scarabs-the enemy is running out of these guns.

When it comes to offensive power, the scarabs are slightly ahead in shooting (thanks to the missiles, who gives much needed S8), and miles ahead in CC (where rubrics are virtually disabled, the scarabs can dish out a bit)

Id say, the two are very similar. Rubrics do kina win over in the durability section but scarabs got an edge when it comes to dealing damage.
Plus, they have native DS. so no burning CP to DS them.

I'd say rubrics as it stands are a bit better, but not by far.
Come the codex, we'll see how it changes. I suspect the gap will grow in favor of rubrics though.

Until we get our claws on the Codex at that point, SOT pull ahead, by a lot.

Glamour is going to put them head and shoulders above Rubrics, especially when it comes to being able to take advantage of cover and LOS.

Its looking like 1 30 man squad of Tzaangors 2 10 man squads of Tzaangors, 2 Rhinos to get them to the where they need to be, 1 Shaman on a Disc, 10 Man SOT squad, and 1 Caster (Magnus/Ahriman) to get off the important spells. that is only 1250 points. Gives you solid anti-horde, some anti-tank, lots of anti elite, with maybe some anti air, depending on strats.

30 man squad gets dropped in first, SOT DS in just behind them, Tzaangors in Rhinos shore up the Tzaangor line where needed, Ahriman casts Prescience and Weaver of Fates on the SOT making them a turret, then Throws out a smite or something, SOT smite, Shaman smites. 1CP spent


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
So we are talking rhetorically here ? The TS are not really dead, but dead in the fluff? They should be dead in the fluffs.

the Static durable gunline army is dead.

So, this is the dreaded Tzaangor Only Meta you're worried about seeing. 10 man tzaangor squads in rhinos and 10 man SOT squads forcing out rubrics?

I'd like a couple things explained to me here.

1) How is 70 points of tzaangors worth protecting with nearly 100 points of rhino? How would 2 5-man rubric squads (with discount priced, full power slinging sorcerors and cheaper soulreaper cannons) sharing the one rhino not be superior cheap troop choices here? Tzaangor blobs are incredibly effective because of their sheer max unit size, ability to deep strike and alpha strike the whole enemy line or screen, and ability to get all the thousand sons buffs. 10 man tzaangor squads in a rhino are essentially as optimized and effective as ork trukk boyz.

2) Scarab occults, barring other changes, will be an exceptional unit..how exactly? The way I see it unless they get some kind of increase in combat effectiveness they'll remain crazy overpriced. You know a 10 man squad is still going to be about 500 points even with the sorceror and soulreaper price reduction, yeah? THey'll put out a ton of shots and kill stuff effectively, but not 500 points of stuff, there's just not enough you can remove with a block of 40 S4 AP-2 D1 shots.

The sorceror price reduction and soulreaper reduction are OK for scarabs, but the minimum price and troop slot for rubrics still makes them better for a similar role. A minimum squad with soulreaper is down to 115 (or maybe 120, hikaru seemed unsure) points. You can take two of those, filling you two troop slots vs 1 elite slot, for the price of a 5-man SOT squad with a rocket.

Unless we see more buffs I don't see SOT being usable. I can't say the same for rubrics. IMO the breakdown of troop units you'll see for Tsons will be:

10 man cultist squad: CPs, deep strike zoning, bare minimum cheapest troop squad you can get.
5 man rubric squad with reaper: psychic support, anti-elite. Use it to make sure that the easier to cast workhorse powers have casts and backups in case important psykers die. Something like Temporal Distortion doesn't sound like it's good enough value to take on someone like Ahriman but you still want it - bring rubrics and get more CPs to spend to boot.
maxed out Tzaangor squad: The mighty mighty blob. Can either deep strike and multi-assault the enemy frontline in the matchup vs a gunline, or deploy as a screen to protect the body of the army in the matchup vs melee alpha.

The other Tzaangor units you'll most likely see the most of in the situation where you want a Brigade. Shamans fill elite slots better than helbrutes or SOT, because I'm guessing they'll be cheaper than a helbrute, 70-80 points if they're a full fledged psyker with mobility and character rule. Skyfires might edge out solo spawns to fill your fast attack slots, because while they're 18 points more expensive for a minimum unit, they're more likely to be useful to you especially if you have a bunch of shamans running around.

lol Chaos Brigade.

 andysonic1 wrote:
lol Chaos Brigade.

Throwing it together now...

Ahriman on disc, 2 basic sorcerors, 4 5-man rubric squads in 2 rhinos, 1 10-man cultist squad, 30 tzaangor, 3 solo spawn, 3 shaman (assuming 70 points), 3 AC/2 las preds, hits you at about 1943 points. Leaves you 57 for random upgrades like discs for the sorcerors, soulreapers in the rubric squads, extra combi bolters on the rhinos, upgrading solo spawns to 3-man skyfire squads, whatever.

And that's hardly a minimal list there.

the_scotsman wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
lol Chaos Brigade.

Throwing it together now...

Ahriman on disc, 2 basic sorcerors, 4 5-man rubric squads in 2 rhinos, 1 10-man cultist squad, 30 tzaangor, 3 solo spawn, 3 shaman (assuming 70 points), 3 AC/2 las preds, hits you at about 1943 points. Leaves you 57 for random upgrades like discs for the sorcerors, soulreapers in the rubric squads, extra combi bolters on the rhinos, upgrading solo spawns to 3-man skyfire squads, whatever.

And that's hardly a minimal list there.

IDK, that seems really light to me. I guess you've got 15 CP to toss around so it ends up being worth it.

I mean, part of me wants to go all in on a gor army, mainly because it'd be very different from most existing armies.

A brigade would be doable, Ahriman and 2 exalted sorcerers for hq, plain gors as troops, 3 shamans, 3 sets of skyfires and 3 vortex beasts should only come in around 1500-1700 points going off the leaks I've seen. Leaves you some room for more units or larger units, plus upgrades. That's 6 psykers, at least 9 skyfires, 60 gors, and 3 beasts. Probably spend remaining points on more skyfires, to add more shooting. It'd be a kinda fun army.

SilverAlien wrote:
I mean, part of me wants to go all in on a gor army, mainly because it'd be very different from most existing armies.

A brigade would be doable, Ahriman and 2 exalted sorcerers for hq, plain gors as troops, 3 shamans, 3 sets of skyfires and 3 vortex beasts should only come in around 1500-1700 points going off the leaks I've seen. Leaves you some room for more units or larger units, plus upgrades. That's 6 psykers, at least 9 skyfires, 60 gors, and 3 beasts. Probably spend remaining points on more skyfires, to add more shooting. It'd be a kinda fun army.

This army sounds cool af. Make it happen!

 andysonic1 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
lol Chaos Brigade.

Throwing it together now...

Ahriman on disc, 2 basic sorcerors, 4 5-man rubric squads in 2 rhinos, 1 10-man cultist squad, 30 tzaangor, 3 solo spawn, 3 shaman (assuming 70 points), 3 AC/2 las preds, hits you at about 1943 points. Leaves you 57 for random upgrades like discs for the sorcerors, soulreapers in the rubric squads, extra combi bolters on the rhinos, upgrading solo spawns to 3-man skyfire squads, whatever.

And that's hardly a minimal list there.

IDK, that seems really light to me. I guess you've got 15 CP to toss around so it ends up being worth it.

12CP? I mean, you could certainly change it up. Those 30 tzaangors are 210 points that you could turn into a second 40-point cultist unit, that'd let you swap a shaman for a SOT squad if you felt you were light on anti-elite stuff, but if you've got CPs to throw around I do like Tzaangors as a TAC flexible choice. The preds similarly could shave 20 points by turning into one or more mutaliths, but my philosophy has always been to have a solid chunk of upfront anti-tank in any more elite list, because you'll usually get the first turn and you should use it to blast something big off the board. Since we are getting the stratagems that make them useful as well as a new to-hit aura on ahriman, you could find some points to swap a pred for a Forgefiend, similar role but scales better with CPs. Daemonforge+Blasphemous is a pretty good use of 2cp when you get the first turn and want to put the hurt on something.

You have 13 powers to throw around, unfortunately no Daemon power list, but with 24" range smites you've got the bandwidth to get the powers you need and some extra mortal wounds to spare. If you do go the route of ditching the tzaangors for some cultists, you can upgrade a sorc to a wingprince, but I really like the tzaangors as an optional alpha to tie up/murder a guard screen in that matchup and as a more durable second layer screen vs melee alpha lists.

 AaronWilson wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
I mean, part of me wants to go all in on a gor army, mainly because it'd be very different from most existing armies.

A brigade would be doable, Ahriman and 2 exalted sorcerers for hq, plain gors as troops, 3 shamans, 3 sets of skyfires and 3 vortex beasts should only come in around 1500-1700 points going off the leaks I've seen. Leaves you some room for more units or larger units, plus upgrades. That's 6 psykers, at least 9 skyfires, 60 gors, and 3 beasts. Probably spend remaining points on more skyfires, to add more shooting. It'd be a kinda fun army.

This army sounds cool af. Make it happen!

If money weren't an issue I would, but with only 20 gors, ahriman, and the sorcerers already purchased, it'd be a while before I could afford to field that. I might try it with daemon engines (maulerfiends probably) for HS and some cultists supplementing the normal gors, then I'm only looking at buying some skyfires and shamans which is a bit easier on the wallet.

Also, can i just say I am only now appreciating what a value my cultists have been over the years. Including this they will have been a staple in five separate army lists: CSM, DG, R&H, cults and militias, and now tsons.

the_scotsman wrote:
So, this is the dreaded Tzaangor Only Meta you're worried about seeing. 10 man Tzaangor squads in rhinos and 10 man SOT squads forcing out rubrics?

I'd like a couple things explained to me here.

That's with the information we have right now and that's also having 250-750 points to spend

the_scotsman wrote:
1) How is 70 points of Tzaangors worth protecting with nearly 100 points of rhino? How would 2 5-man rubric squads (with discount priced, full power slinging sorcerors and cheaper soulreaper cannons) sharing the one rhino not be superior cheap troop choices here? Tzaangor blobs are incredibly effective because of their sheer max unit size, ability to deep strike and alpha strike the whole enemy line or screen, and ability to get all the thousand sons buffs. 10 man Tzaangor squads in a rhino are essentially as optimized and effective as ork trukk boyz.

2 Rubric squads with a Rhino costs 286 with no upgrades, 10 Tzaangors in a Rhino cost 142 slightly under half, so there is nothing cheap about 2 min Rubric squads in the Rhino. Next, up is the why do that. Tzaangors are relatively cheap and vulnerable to small arms fire. So assuming you have the 30 man squad on the table, the opponent is going to focus fire that with all AP- weaponry, okay so now they enemy has anti-tank weapons what do they shoot at the Rubrics or the Rhino? They shoot at the Rubrics and they are letting MORE melee crap into their line, If they focus the Rhino then they slow down the Tzaangors maybe kill a few and the Rubrics get at least 2 turns of shooting at full strength. Neither situation is what the enemy wants, but you already know how they will decide, or at least you should. They will shoot at the more threatening unit what ever that may be, which depends on the army. The alternative is having the Rubrics in the Rhino and the Tzaangors on foot. Doing this means there is no real decision to be made, anti tank weapons hit the Rhino and if it blows up you Risk losing 20+ point models depending on what is in there. But, now to add to your woes your opponent rolled well when attacking the 30 man Tzaangor squad, and has a few squads left to fire, good thing those Tzaangors are in the open and not in a Rhino otherwise they would only be left, with shooting a T 7 3++ vehicle or a T 4 2+ infantry unit, neither really allows them to take advantage of good rolls.

So to recap, putting the Tzaangors in Rhinos allows them to get to the fight quicker, reduces losses to small arms fire, forces the enemy to split limited fire between multiple durable units, and limits your opponents ability to take advantage of good rolls.

the_scotsman wrote:
2) Scarab occults, barring other changes, will be an exceptional unit..how exactly? The way I see it unless they get some kind of increase in combat effectiveness they'll remain crazy overpriced. You know a 10 man squad is still going to be about 500 points even with the sorceror and soulreaper price reduction, yeah? They'll put out a ton of shots and kill stuff effectively, but not 500 points of stuff, there's just not enough you can remove with a block of 40 S4 AP-2 D1 shots.

Building on the above, that putting Rubrics in Rhinos is a bad idea, we can move on to the next question. Is it better to put SOT on the table, or Rubric Marines? Given we have a limited number of CP and can only cast spells a single time to get maximum effect from these resources we want to use them on maxed out squads. Maxed out Rubrics have 20 man squads while SOT will have 10, SOT have 9 LD compared to Rubrics 8 LD. Right here we have run into problems already, Rubrics have 2x the models which means cover becomes difficult if at all possible, SOT with their 10 models can definitely benefit from cover. The differences in LD are profound if I lose 8 models from the Rubric squad I can't stop myself from losing models unless I use CP, which we have precious little of even with min squads of RM. In fact if you lose 12 models your in serious danger of losing the entire squad, and again with 20 models you wont be able to benefit from cover so AP-2 weaponry becomes a real threat, plasma doesn't have to be OC to have a real effect (this is important because of Glamour). Meanwhile, SOT still have a 2+ armor save vs -2 AP weaponry while in cover, and with out an OC plasma gun they do less then 1 wound per turn with WoF. Even with all the same buffs to Rubrics you still have to worry about AP -2 weaponry and losing more then 4 models on any given turn.

the_scotsman wrote:
The sorceror price reduction and soulreaper reduction are OK for scarabs, but the minimum price and troop slot for rubrics still makes them better for a similar role. A minimum squad with soulreaper is down to 115 (or maybe 120, hikaru seemed unsure) points. You can take two of those, filling you two troop slots vs 1 elite slot, for the price of a 5-man SOT squad with a rocket.

Its worse then OK its maybe 11 points total, but Glamour makes them worth it due to a massive increase in durability they gain. CSM RM are 120 right now with a soul reaper. If you like running that then I would suggest running AL or IW.

the_scotsman wrote:
Unless we see more buffs I don't see SOT being usable. I can't say the same for rubrics.

Its not about the unit itself getting a buff, it's about increased affects from new buffs we get.

the_scotsman wrote:
10 man cultist squad: CPs, deep strike zoning, bare minimum cheapest troop squad you can get.
5 man rubric squad with reaper: psychic support, anti-elite. Use it to make sure that the easier to cast workhorse powers have casts and backups in case important psykers die. Something like Temporal Distortion doesn't sound like it's good enough value to take on someone like Ahriman but you still want it - bring rubrics and get more CPs to spend to boot.
maxed out Tzaangor squad: The mighty mighty blob. Can either deep strike and multi-assault the enemy frontline in the matchup vs a gunline, or deploy as a screen to protect the body of the army in the matchup vs melee alpha.

Temporal Distortion is amazing if you know where to apply it. Anything that already regens wounds is going to benefit massively from that. Helbrutes will also gain a lot since it can net you extra turns with them, and they don't degrade.

the_scotsman wrote:
The other Tzaangor units you'll most likely see the most of in the situation where you want a Brigade. Shamans fill elite slots better than helbrutes or SOT, because I'm guessing they'll be cheaper than a helbrute, 70-80 points if they're a full fledged psyker with mobility and character rule. Skyfires might edge out solo spawns to fill your fast attack slots, because while they're 18 points more expensive for a minimum unit, they're more likely to be useful to you especially if you have a bunch of shamans running around.

No shamans have a +1 to hit aura for Tzaangors which means your going to see them in damn near every army.

Right now the best way to run an Army is to have 1 or 2 max squads to benefit from, and a bunch of min squads to draw fire to keep the the maxed out squads at full strength.

I have to agree on the Brigade point, our Rubricae are just too expensive to run in a brigade.

1) 2 rubric squads in one rhino costing approximately twice 1 tzaangor squad in a rhino is fine by me because the rubrics are actually worthwhile when deployed in a rhino. You're paying the same price per troop squad, which is actually a good deal less points than the price per maximum sized tzaangor squad, in my eyes our other useful troop (but if you're going for CPs, our least efficient). I don't consider rhino tzaangors worthwhile at all for the same reason ork players don't consider trukk boyz worthwhile: You pay for a transport that doesn't give them any kind of turn 1 threat, and you pay more than the cost of the squad. You give up large blob bonuses, and you give up once-per buffs on them like stratagems and psychic powers. Its exactly the same scenario with tzaangors, and its why 30 boyz on foot are a great unit, and 12 boyz in a trukk are a terrible one. Rubrics in a rhino are a psychic support/midrange shooting unit, they don't need to be right in the enemys teeth turn 1. They can get out of their rhino and probably be capable of shooting something at 24" and casting their psychic power. If the rhino dies, big deal, you're not losing either aspiring sorceror or soulreaper cannon, which is largely the point of the squad. Tzaangors in a huge blob will *never* take significant anti infantry fire because against any opponent with that, say a guard army with 150 lasguns? They're in deep strike, and I'm goign to drop them, warptime them in, buff the bejezus out of them and watch them shred the chaff. I don't need a shaman for them, because they get 2+ to hit over 20 models naturally. And if I set my army up that way, I'm not paying an extra 80something points per tzaangor squad to give them useless metal boxes. 240 points of rubrics is worth a rhino, more than worth, and if my opponent dedicates anti tank fire to it early, more the better because it means they're not shooting my predators, Magnus, forgefiend, or whatever other anti tank fire magnet I have.

2) I just now pointed out a brigade to demonstrate that we can really easily fill one thanks to our now cheaper elite slots and already super cheap fast slots. We may be even in better shape if it turns out that the 51pt bow squad pays a lot of points for those bows - we know they also get a chainsword/autopistol option which will be either 1 point or free. If those guys are within or close to the 33 point mark of their competition, solo spawns, then they'll make MUCH better cheap wildcard units to fill those fast slots and a brigade will be even more viable. I made a brigade with 5/6 of my troop choices being rubrics and a maxed out tzaangor blob, and I had Ahriman on a Disc as one of my HQs - its very doable. If you don't like it though, 2x battalions is also comparatively cheap, and a daemon battalion is even cheaper with 30pt brimstone squads. I've made up three likely army builds featuring 1 brigade, 2 battalions, and 3 battalions (one daemons), to ensure that I have enough CPs to use all the stratagems I want.

3) Shamans are useful to a limited extent only because basic Tzaangors already get their buff when theyre over 20 models. They are almost certainly going to be the cheapest Elites option, meaning they'll be highly worthwhile in a brigade (especially considering you'll probably bring 3 skyfire squads for FA as well, who will need the buff) but for non-brigade lists, unless you bring skyfires I'm kind of "meh" on them. They're essentially a one-power sorceror on jump pack with no deep strike, no 3+ armor save for roughly 40 points less assuming they're 85 points including the force staff. Their buff is good on skyfires, but rarely that useful for tzaangors if you're fielding them how they should be fielded. I can definitely see them in a Brigade where you need elites, but HQ is a much better slot in every other instance.

My 3-battalion and 2-battalion lists so far contain only one Tzaangor squad, max size. My brigade list has that and 3 shamans, *maybe* 9 skyfires if it turns out the autopistol/chainsword option makes them price competitive with solo spawns. In all instances I'm fielding over double the amount of points in rubrics and sorcerors, and I don't think swapping out more of those with more Tzaangors would be a good decision strategically. Numbers wise, yes, I am fielding more tzaangors than Rubrics, because they cost a great deal less. if tzaangors didnt exist, I'd field more cultists than rubrics. That's just smart list building, if you don't include cheap screeners/zoners, you're in trouble in 8th. Ask a SM player who doesn't play Scouts how they usually do.

Is this the Tzaangorpocalypse that was foretold? I don't think so, the list is a couple hundred points of a tzaangor screen/optional alpha bomb and 1650-1750 points of durable psyker heavy gunline. That's Thousand Sons, how they've always operated.

So let me ask this, how well so you think tzeentzch daemons are gonna synergize with t sons? Because I'm honestly wanting to do pink horror squads from daemons and then t sons rubrics

 Backspacehacker wrote:
So let me ask this, how well so you think tzeentzch daemons are gonna synergize with t sons? Because I'm honestly wanting to do pink horror squads from daemons and then t sons rubrics

You'll want a separate detachment of them, but you could easily do a herald and horrors and support them with powers from the TS detachment using the Daemon lore. With their loci the horrors are decent melee blockers.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
So let me ask this, how well so you think tzeentzch daemons are gonna synergize with t sons? Because I'm honestly wanting to do pink horror squads from daemons and then t sons rubrics

You'll want a separate detachment of them, but you could easily do a herald and horrors and support them with powers from the TS detachment using the Daemon lore. With their loci the horrors are decent melee blockers.

That's what I was thinking. Do like 50 pink horror, a herald, and a D prince so not only can they soak wounds but also can toss out a lot of light arms fire. The problem I keep having though, is heavy support, another list I have which is pure T sons takes 2 laz preds which does good at that, but I also wanna really utilize the sheer volume of spells t sons gets.

 Backspacehacker wrote:


That's what I was thinking. Do like 50 pink horror, a herald, and a D prince so not only can they soak wounds but also can toss out a lot of light arms fire. The problem I keep having though, is heavy support, another list I have which is pure T sons takes 2 laz preds which does good at that, but I also wanna really utilize the sheer volume of spells t sons gets.

Yea it's hard to tell if spells will provide enough direct anti-tank. I think no at the moment.

Yeah, which means I'll probably need to run 2 preds

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Yeah, which means I'll probably need to run 2 preds

Yea quite likely though I like bringing down T7 stuff with bolters, soulreapers, and VotLW.

I'm also considering running two empty suicide rhinos to roll up and use warpflame gargoyles on their infantry. Might not be effective, but seems so, so fun.

My current wip list is

Exaulted sorcerer on disk
Exaulted sorcerer on disk
Sorcerer in Terminator armor

10x rubric
-soul reaper
-8 warp bolters
-rhino

10x rubric
-soul reaper
-8 warp bolters,
-strar deep strike

30x tzaangors
-30 tzaangor blades

Chaos laz pred
Chaos laz pred

Magnus.

I'm banking on exaulted sorcerer being good again, but I figure this way, I'm making it so trying to gun down Magnus turn one might not be the best idea since there is two laz preds there as well.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

I'm banking on exaulted sorcerer being good again, but I figure this way, I'm making it so trying to gun down Magnus turn one might not be the best idea since there is two laz preds there as well.

If there is anything I miss from 7th it's exalted sorcerers with options. I'm crossing my fingers.

Agreed on the preds - definitely a distraction. Do you absolutely need that sorcerer in TA?

The TA sorcerer is to deep strike in with the one rubric squad that uses the strat to deep strike, that way they have a bit more umf in there.

What's the uproar about? More options = better lists = more flexibility. It might not be fluffy in SOME types of TS army, but does that matter? I'm over the moon for these models in ts as I already did arcanites

 fwlr wrote:
What's the uproar about? More options = better lists = more flexibility. It might not be fluffy in SOME types of TS army, but does that matter? I'm over the moon for these models in ts as I already did arcanites

I think the frustration stems from the idea that the bread and butter of a T sons army is going to be tzaangors not t sons. Like for example, the only thing that we're marines in the game played by gw was Magnus, and 2 5 man rubric squads, rest was tZaangors.

 fwlr wrote:
What's the uproar about? More options = better lists = more flexibility. It might not be fluffy in SOME types of TS army, but does that matter? I'm over the moon for these models in ts as I already did arcanites

Imagine the following:

Gw announces Custodes codex and hypes up how amazing it is that custodes are going to be their own faction. However, two weeks later they release the unit list for the codex list and it looks like this:
- HQ:
Trajann Valoris
Solar auxilia command squad
Solar auxilia commisar

Troops:
Custodes squad
Solar auxilia infantry squad
Solar auxilia special weapons team

Elites:
Solar auxilia Bullgryns
Solar auxilia heavy weapons team
Venerable contemptor dreadnought

Fast attack:
Solar auxilia Sentinels
Solar auxilia Hellhounds

Heavy support:
Land raider
Solar auxilia Leman Russ

Boy I'm sure every Custodes player would be extatic that their unit selection just got QUADRUPLED.

You see, most thousand sons players didn't want dozens of new kits so they could be ultraspecial snowflakes. Maybe one or two new units to expand the unit selection would be cool, but the number one thing we want is for the units that exist to be worth taking.
Currently whether I win or lose is entirely depended on whether I take Magnus or not.

Boy I'll kill for a Solar Auxiliar codex... and kits in plastic. They are my TOP2 of Imperial Guard forces.

DaPino wrote:

Currently whether I win or lose is entirely depended on whether I take Magnus or not.

Currently you don't have a full codex. You will next week.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 fwlr wrote:
What's the uproar about? More options = better lists = more flexibility. It might not be fluffy in SOME types of TS army, but does that matter? I'm over the moon for these models in ts as I already did arcanites

I think the frustration stems from the idea that the bread and butter of a T sons army is going to be tzaangors not t sons. Like for example, the only thing that we're marines in the game played by gw was Magnus, and 2 5 man rubric squads, rest was tZaangors.

Not entirely, its more of a I dont want to be punished for running the iconic unit that most people think about when they think TS.

On top of that there is an Army which has been around for much less time and they are getting kit after kit after kit.

I'll say this again I wasnt expect a lot 1 MAYBE 2 new models. I was more expecting what did just toned down a bit, Helbrute with an upgrade kit, Defiler with an upgrade kit. Something along those lines.

With this release its been the same theme the whole way through. Want to play TS in war hammer 40k? Buy these AoS models, and an upgrade sprue. We apparently are not getting a battleforce box but are being told to but the Arcanite Battle force box and buy an upgrade. Our "new" spells, are two Disiplines which we already had access to and one which we knew half of before we knew the release was happening.

Every single oppertunity GW had to spend ANYTHING on development they chose to spend as little as possible. Meanwhile when it comes to AC they seem to have spared no expense.

Hell at least you could use this as an oppertunity to update the generic CSM line somewhat. Even thay seems to have.been not an option.

Daedalus81 wrote:

DaPino wrote:

Currently whether I win or lose is entirely depended on whether I take Magnus or not.

Currently you don't have a full codex. You will next week.

This from the leaks alone it looks very possible to make a decent t sons list with out big red.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
I think the frustration stems from the idea that the bread and butter of a T sons army is going to be tzaangors not t sons. Like for example, the only thing that we're marines in the game played by gw was Magnus, and 2 5 man rubric squads, rest was tZaangors.

(this post isn't really aimed at you as I know you're just explaining the thread to that user, this is more just general thoughts on the new codex with relation to this thread and those who are actually all-in on the "Codex: Tzaangor" narrative)

Don't forget Ahriman, the Daemon Prince and the Predator. Additionally, the Mutalith is in no way a Tzaangor and is more akin to a giant Chaos Spawn. There were also 10 Cultists. In that sense, there were 14 Marine models, 40 Tzaangor models, 10 Cultists and 1 "Spawn". We can't draw conclusions from demo games other than actual rules shown off because ultimately they tend to showcase what they want - i.e. the new stuff. If the Thousand Sons player opted not to take Magnus and a worthless combi-melta on the Predator, he could have easily fit an additional ~15 Rubrics. Similarly, he could have taken something like ~50 extra Cultists for the price of those Tzaangors. All food for thought.

Bread and butter wise if we talk model counts then Tzaangors and Cultists should always outnumber Rubric Marines both narratively and competitively in an army list, having at least one big unit of light infantry is mandatory in 8th Edition and fits the fluff of the Thousand Sons who rely on them to supplement their diminutive numbers. Points-wise is another story, as per that list the Marine side vastly outnumbered the Tzaangor side in that sense.

Besides, other than taking at least one horde for bubble-wrap purposes, the rest of the Tzaangor stuff is not auto-take - and even then, you can use Cultists for that purpose instead of Tzaangors if you want. The Enlightened are really good but if we want a dedicated anti-tank unit then Predators are still a great bet, and anti-infantry is something Tzeentch as a whole does well so while they're definitely super efficient they aren't by any means mandatory. I'm curious to see what the melee variant is but based on their stats it sounds like the bows are going to be the default weapon of choice unless one is looking to save points to fill out Brigades. Shamans are in a similar boat, they're a discounted psyker on a disk but functionally you'd generally want a psyker that can cast 2 spells given our vast spell selection, the Shaman is there more-so for buffing Tzaangor units; also depends on what its spell selection is, if it doesn't get Dark Hereticus then one big use for it (a cheap way to deliver 9" range Warptime around the board) is off the table. The Mutalith isn't strictly a Tzaangor unit but it is more on the unique side, being a moving fire magnet like a Maulerfiend but with a nasty buff aura. That is one to watch for sure.

TLDR the new stuff is good and we should be happy we have more competitive options, but don't feel compelled to take the new stuff; per the leaks, I'd suggest you can do just fine without them. Any competitive player was already running either Tzaangor or Cultist blobs anyway so the new codex wouldn't change that, just making the Tzaangor blob in particular more appealing. Enlightened and Shamans don't supersede existing options but supplement them. If anything, allied Tzeentch Daemons for cheap Command Points and super-charged dakka are probably still going to be more popular for "support elements" to a competitive Thousand Sons army. I'm of the personal opinion that 20 man Rubric squads teleporting around are going to be a hell of a lot of fun, especially with Veterans of the Long War and Prescience. More reliable in a sense than a deep-striking Tzaangor blob that has to rely on the much shorter ranged (to cast, under Thousand Sons rules Warptime is 9" and Prescience is 24", way easier to stay out of deny range with Prescience) Warptime to do anything on the turn it arrives other than draw fire, though obviously quite a bit more expensive and filling different roles.

What he said, also, we really need to wait for th codex because right bow rubrics and occults are over costed, and at the current level an all rubric army is just horrible, but who knows with powers it might be the push they needed.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

DaPino wrote:

Currently whether I win or lose is entirely depended on whether I take Magnus or not.

Currently you don't have a full codex. You will next week.

This from the leaks alone it looks very possible to make a decent t sons list with out big red.

Yes as long as you make a list that is Tzaangor heavy, and dosen't rely on casting too much.

DH-567866

CD-786858

TS-979667

Do you know what those are? Those are the warpcharges for the "new" spells we have access to. WC 7 has a 41% failure rate 1/3 of our spells wont go off half the time without help, Rubric units only have access to the last list, which means 2 spells to put on them a heal and WoF. Buffs 1 of which would be useful on a maxed out squad, the only way to get the CD spells is to bring hyper expensive DP units or Shamans which are 1/2 the price and get 1 free reroll per game and give a +1 to hit buff to Tzaangors.

Magnus with his reroll 1s for psy test aura pushes our ability to cast spells into the pretty reasonable range rather then the not very likely. Which is a bit odd for a bunch of Sorcerers that have been practicing for 10,000+ years. You would think they would not be amatuers at casting spells.

 Galas wrote:
Boy I'll kill for a Solar Auxiliar codex... and kits in plastic. They are my TOP2 of Imperial Guard forces.

I run mine as Stormtroopers. Only issue is the lack of Dracosans.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

DaPino wrote:

Currently whether I win or lose is entirely depended on whether I take Magnus or not.

Currently you don't have a full codex. You will next week.

This from the leaks alone it looks very possible to make a decent t sons list with out big red.

Yes as long as you make a list that is Tzaangor heavy, and dosen't rely on casting too much.

DH-567866

CD-786858

TS-979667

Do you know what those are? Those are the warpcharges for the "new" spells we have access to. WC 7 has a 41% failure rate 1/3 of our spells wont go off half the time without help, Rubric units only have access to the last list, which means 2 spells to put on them a heal and WoF. Buffs 1 of which would be useful on a maxed out squad, the only way to get the CD spells is to bring hyper expensive DP units or Shamans which are 1/2 the price and get 1 free reroll per game and give a +1 to hit buff to Tzaangors.

Magnus with his reroll 1s for psy test aura pushes our ability to cast spells into the pretty reasonable range rather then the not very likely. Which is a bit odd for a bunch of Sorcerers that have been practicing for 10,000+ years. You would think they would not be amatuers at casting spells.

I would at least wait until I had the codex in my hands before making any assumptions about optimal lists. You may want to run a few games with proxy models, too. Things often look better/worse on paper than they are when the dice start rolling. Remember the cries of this being the edition that officially killed horde armies and only MSU would be viable?

You know that rubric units are limited to change discipline just as much as you know the tzaangor shaman is: because Eddie chose the two powers they used from change in the game. They say nothing about that in the WHC article.

What they did say though is that only Magnus and DPs get the daemon discipline. Not shamans. You're delusional about that one as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the shaman isn't half the price of a sorc. A sorc on foot is about 10pts more. On a disc they're 40pts more. They get one more power and a 3+ armor save, and they're an HQ choice allowing you to build towards CPs.

the_scotsman wrote:
You know that rubric units are limited to change discipline just as much as you know the tzaangor shaman is: because Eddie chose the two powers they used from change in the game. They say nothing about that in the WHC article.

What they did say though is that only Magnus and DPs get the daemon discipline. Not shamans. You're delusional about that one as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the shaman isn't half the price of a sorc. A sorc on foot is about 10pts more. On a disc they're 40pts more. They get one more power and a 3+ armor save, and they're an HQ choice allowing you to build towards CPs.

To be fair to him, he did say DPs (Daemon Princes) rather than Sorcerers, but yeah from what I can tell I've seen nothing to suggest Rubrics/Scarabs are restricted to Change, or that Shamans can use the Daemon discipline. That is, of course, unless there are more details from that stream that haven't been mentioned here yet, or leaks from elsewhere. It'd be odd (but appreciated, so I'm hopeful for it) to see Shamans get the Daemon discipline because the only thing daemonic about them is the Disk they ride, but by that logic then Ahriman and Exalted Sorcerers on disks would surely also get access to the Daemon discipline.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 fwlr wrote:
What's the uproar about? More options = better lists = more flexibility. It might not be fluffy in SOME types of TS army, but does that matter? I'm over the moon for these models in ts as I already did arcanites

I think the frustration stems from the idea that the bread and butter of a T sons army is going to be tzaangors not t sons. Like for example, the only thing that we're marines in the game played by gw was Magnus, and 2 5 man rubric squads, rest was tZaangors.

Not entirely, its more of a I dont want to be punished for running the iconic unit that most people think about when they think TS.

On top of that there is an Army which has been around for much less time and they are getting kit after kit after kit.

I'll say this again I wasnt expect a lot 1 MAYBE 2 new models. I was more expecting what did just toned down a bit, Helbrute with an upgrade kit, Defiler with an upgrade kit. Something along those lines.

With this release its been the same theme the whole way through. Want to play TS in war hammer 40k? Buy these AoS models, and an upgrade sprue. We apparently are not getting a battleforce box but are being told to but the Arcanite Battle force box and buy an upgrade. Our "new" spells, are two Disiplines which we already had access to and one which we knew half of before we knew the release was happening.

Every single oppertunity GW had to spend ANYTHING on development they chose to spend as little as possible. Meanwhile when it comes to AC they seem to have spared no expense.

Hell at least you could use this as an oppertunity to update the generic CSM line somewhat. Even thay seems to have.been not an option.

Your main point of contention seems to stem from a lack of new rubrics, and that you are jealous AC and DG got new lines. BUT what you fail to realize is that of the 13 codexes thus far, only 3 have gotten new models. Why? Because GW could only handle that many. GW never planned on spending money expanding TS. They had already decided to do Primaris, DG and AC well over a year ago.

Instead, GW looked at some of their new codexes and said "what can we add to these armies without making new models?". Hence why Guard got access to crusaders, Tyranids got screamer-killers (from the same box already in production) and Eldar got Eldrad in a plastic kit (that they had already made), Grey Knights got GMDK.

With TS, GW decided to offer more Tzaangors options to bulk out an already meager codex. It cost them nothing to do so. Same with Guard, Tyranids, and Eldar, and Grey knights.
GW was never going to give you new rubrics and they didn't have to give you more Tzaangors.

Meanwhile Admech got NOTHING. Not even a rhino they could use.

Had GW not given you more Tzaangors, you would have had NO new units. So I really don't know why you're so mad.

I wanted new Guard models but that never happened. So suck it up and move on.

Now, in regards to Rubrics being outclassed by Tzaangors: you don't know yet. No one knows yet. For all you know Rubrics will be better than Tzaangors. And even if Tzaangors end up being better than Rubrics in every possible way (which I doubt) you can always continue fielding Rubrics because it's your army.

Lastly, GW gains nothing from making Rubrics bad. In fact, they lose out on selling a fancy NEW kit. It's in their interest to ensure players buy the dang models. Why would they sabotage themselves?

 EnTyme wrote:
I would at least wait until I had the codex in my hands before making any assumptions about optimal lists. You may want to run a few games with proxy models, too. Things often look better/worse on paper than they are when the dice start rolling. Remember the cries of this being the edition that officially killed horde armies and only MSU would be viable?

I would agree if we had very little information, but we don't we have more then enough to get us to the conclusion that if you want to cast spells you need to run Magnus at this point.

He mitigates Perils while increasing your chance of casting, even if we got 2 strats which did the same thing AND affected the whole army costing 1 CP each you would still want to run Magnus since it costs 12 CP to do that through the entire game.

That on top of the fact that Rubrics have a real danger of blowing up and killing 47-87 points of their own unit (not including other units) means bringing Magnus WILL be the most effective thing to do if you want to bring Rubric units.

How effective that is remains to be seen, but your not going to get more effective then that. Not bringing him and having say 6 squads of Rubrics would mean your spell selection is very limited, and most of the spells you would want to cast with them would just be repeats anyways which means Smite is cast a lot. In 2 weeks Smite will be worthless and so will the Rubrics without Magnus.

Trouble is Magnus is a squishy bitch who dies usually in the first 2 turns of combat, and given what he will bring after all these changes he WILL die in the first turn, people will make sure of that.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
I would at least wait until I had the codex in my hands before making any assumptions about optimal lists. You may want to run a few games with proxy models, too. Things often look better/worse on paper than they are when the dice start rolling. Remember the cries of this being the edition that officially killed horde armies and only MSU would be viable?

I would agree if we had very little information, but we don't we have more then enough to get us to the conclusion that if you want to cast spells you need to run Magnus at this point..

Yes, I think we can assume that the odds of any other character, warlord trait, stratagem, or relic will give the Thousand Sons, Psyker faction, any kind of bonus to casting rolls. We have more than enough information to indicate to us that the only possible way to get any kind of casting bonus or perils mitigation will be a 450 point lord of war.

That is a completely safe assumpion to make.

the_scotsman wrote:
You know that rubric units are limited to change discipline just as much as you know the tzaangor shaman is: because Eddie chose the two powers they used from change in the game. They say nothing about that in the WHC article.

What they did say though is that only Magnus and DPs get the daemon discipline. Not shamans. You're delusional about that one as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the shaman isn't half the price of a sorc. A sorc on foot is about 10pts more. On a disc they're 40pts more. They get one more power and a 3+ armor save, and they're an HQ choice allowing you to build towards CPs.

And because xxhikaru123 leaked it in the rumors thread, that's fine there is still more of a reason to bring Shamans and Tzaangors then run squads of Rubrics.

And what is the cost of a DP which is what I was talking about, which you clearly knew since you got the CD lore reference right.

Alright, that's fine. Enjoy your Tzaangor codex then.

Dandelion wrote:
Your main point of contention seems to stem from a lack of new rubrics, and that you are jealous AC and DG got new lines. BUT what you fail to realize is that of the 13 codexes thus far, only 3 have gotten new models. Why? Because GW could only handle that many. GW never planned on spending money expanding TS. They had already decided to do Primaris, DG and AC well over a year ago.

Instead, GW looked at some of their new codexes and said "what can we add to these armies without making new models?". Hence why Guard got access to crusaders, Tyranids got screamer-killers (from the same box already in production) and Eldar got Eldrad in a plastic kit (that they had already made), Grey Knights got GMDK.

With TS, GW decided to offer more Tzaangors options to bulk out an already meager codex. It cost them nothing to do so. Same with Guard, Tyranids, and Eldar, and Grey knights.
GW was never going to give you new rubrics and they didn't have to give you more Tzaangors.

Meanwhile Admech got NOTHING. Not even a rhino they could use.

Had GW not given you more Tzaangors, you would have had NO new units. So I really don't know why you're so mad.

I wanted new Guard models but that never happened. So suck it up and move on.

Now, in regards to Rubrics being outclassed by Tzaangors: you don't know yet. No one knows yet. For all you know Rubrics will be better than Tzaangors. And even if Tzaangors end up being better than Rubrics in every possible way (which I doubt) you can always continue fielding Rubrics because it's your army.

Next time just say "quite complaining" save everyone the time.

I'm apparently jealous, and mad, okay lets assume I am. Does that prove me wrong? No, it proves you don't know how to dissect an argument, and provide an accurate critique.

Ad Mech is a fully fleshed out army, all of its units are unique and it has multiple entries in each category, TS have 4 unique units, 1 FA, and 2 Elite slots, are 13 of our 17 unit entries are Generic CSM units compared to the 16 out of 16 units in Ad Mech. As for the 13 Codices, so something has happened multiple times means its okay and should just be accepted?

You wanted new guard? Why? Is guard lacking in some way? Is there some variant of the LR tank you want that doesn't exist?

See there you compared two armies which are fully fleshed out, to a psudeo army which has a total of 15 entries as of now and will have 15 MAYBE after a CODEX drops, we currently have 1 FA entry

"So suck it up and move on."...NO. And I stop telling me to.

Dandelion wrote:
Lastly, GW gains nothing from making Rubrics bad. In fact, they lose out on selling a fancy NEW kit. It's in their interest to ensure players buy the dang models. Why would they sabotage themselves?

You must be kidding about that GW gains nothing from converting a Small Static gunline force into a mobile melee horde force in an edition where mobile horde armies are the new hotness.

GW GW doesn't gain anything from making a bunch of already purchased models useless (which isn't what I said) so people have to go out and buy MORE models

Oh, man your funny. By the way they don't have to make them useless they only need to make them inefficient in large numbers, then people that have more then 20 Rubrics have to shelve them and run 30 more Tzaangors in their stead.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
This means that the Thousand Sons Army which once consisted of almost entirely rubric units and sorcerers will now be made up of mostly Tzaangor units a couple of Rubric units and Sorcerers,

That is what I said. Which is what is happening, Tzaangors are getting multiple units to buff them, plus multiple units added to the army. We are getting no new Rubric type units added to the army, which means buffs for them are going to remain static, or will change very little.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:
I would at least wait until I had the codex in my hands before making any assumptions about optimal lists. You may want to run a few games with proxy models, too. Things often look better/worse on paper than they are when the dice start rolling. Remember the cries of this being the edition that officially killed horde armies and only MSU would be viable?

I would agree if we had very little information, but we don't we have more then enough to get us to the conclusion that if you want to cast spells you need to run Magnus at this point..

Yes, I think we can assume that the odds of any other character, warlord trait, stratagem, or relic will give the Thousand Sons, Psyker faction, any kind of bonus to casting rolls. We have more than enough information to indicate to us that the only possible way to get any kind of casting bonus or perils mitigation will be a 450 point lord of war.

That is a completely safe assumpion to make.

What spells do we not know at this time? all of them got it.

What Strats don't we know about at this time? 15 tops, and most of those will be CSM and maybe 1 or 2 Tzeentch Daemons, we MIGHT have 1 or 2 more unique stratagems which I accounted for if you noticed.

What auras don't we know about? Exalted Sorcerers, and we are hazy on the Mutalith, we know CC and Shotty buffs, no Psychic buffs, and the DP which COULD get a aura change.

So lets analyze that DP getting a aura change and another spell would require a points adjustment, which requires time and effort, which requires money, and GW has avoided spending money on the TS release with startling efficiency.

Same exact logic applies to the Exalted Sorcerers, time, effort, money, avoidance.

Last up is the Mutalith which lets assume has something like re-roll 1s on psychic tests on a 9" aura that alone makes the model worth 200 points, but we know its around 150 so more then likely NOT the case.

Out of all that we have 2 maybe strats, 1 maybe aura, and 1 guaranteed spell which will allow us to re roll 1 dice per turn.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Dandelion wrote:
Your main point of contention seems to stem from a lack of new rubrics, and that you are jealous AC and DG got new lines. BUT what you fail to realize is that of the 13 codexes thus far, only 3 have gotten new models. Why? Because GW could only handle that many. GW never planned on spending money expanding TS. They had already decided to do Primaris, DG and AC well over a year ago.

Instead, GW looked at some of their new codexes and said "what can we add to these armies without making new models?". Hence why Guard got access to crusaders, Tyranids got screamer-killers (from the same box already in production) and Eldar got Eldrad in a plastic kit (that they had already made), Grey Knights got GMDK.

With TS, GW decided to offer more Tzaangors options to bulk out an already meager codex. It cost them nothing to do so. Same with Guard, Tyranids, and Eldar, and Grey knights.
GW was never going to give you new rubrics and they didn't have to give you more Tzaangors.

Meanwhile Admech got NOTHING. Not even a rhino they could use.

Had GW not given you more Tzaangors, you would have had NO new units. So I really don't know why you're so mad.

I wanted new Guard models but that never happened. So suck it up and move on.

Now, in regards to Rubrics being outclassed by Tzaangors: you don't know yet. No one knows yet. For all you know Rubrics will be better than Tzaangors. And even if Tzaangors end up being better than Rubrics in every possible way (which I doubt) you can always continue fielding Rubrics because it's your army.

Next time just say "quite complaining" save everyone the time.

I'm apparently jealous, and mad, okay lets assume I am. Does that prove me wrong? No, it proves you don't know how to dissect an argument, and provide an accurate critique.

Ad Mech is a fully fleshed out army, all of its units are unique and it has multiple entries in each category, TS have 4 unique units, 1 FA, and 2 Elite slots, are 13 of our 17 unit entries are Generic CSM units compared to the 16 out of 16 units in Ad Mech. As for the 13 Codices, so something has happened multiple times means its okay and should just be accepted?

You wanted new guard? Why? Is guard lacking in some way? Is there some variant of the LR tank you want that doesn't exist?

See there you compared two armies which are fully fleshed out, to a psudeo army which has a total of 15 entries as of now and will have 15 MAYBE after a CODEX drops, we currently have 1 FA entry

"So suck it up and move on."...NO. And I stop telling me to.

Dandelion wrote:
Lastly, GW gains nothing from making Rubrics bad. In fact, they lose out on selling a fancy NEW kit. It's in their interest to ensure players buy the dang models. Why would they sabotage themselves?

You must be kidding about that GW gains nothing from converting a Small Static gunline force into a mobile melee horde force in an edition where mobile horde armies are the new hotness.

GW GW doesn't gain anything from making a bunch of already purchased models useless (which isn't what I said) so people have to go out and buy MORE models

Oh, man your funny. By the way they don't have to make them useless they only need to make them inefficient in large numbers, then people that have more then 20 Rubrics have to shelve them and run 30 more Tzaangors in their stead.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
This means that the Thousand Sons Army which once consisted of almost entirely rubric units and sorcerers will now be made up of mostly Tzaangor units a couple of Rubric units and Sorcerers,

That is what I said. Which is what is happening, Tzaangors are getting multiple units to buff them, plus multiple units added to the army. We are getting no new Rubric type units added to the army, which means buffs for them are going to remain static, or will change very little.

1) "Admech is fully fleshed out" - Not according to Admech players, who all desperately want a transport, either a rhino or any one of the myriad 30k ones. Maybe you just can't tell because they never made a thread called "Admech is dead..."

2) What new Guard did I want? Rough Riders. Instead they took those out of the codex. THEY TOOK A UNIT AWAY! A unit that I am particularly fond of. I also would have liked any of the metal regiments to be done in plastic. It would have only taken 3 kits to do so. Much like how you were complaining that GW was too lazy to throw in a kit or two.

3) You know what army was seriously lacking? Custodes. They only had 3 unit entries and no HQ. Does that mean you think GW was correct in giving them new units?

4) You're assumption is that every possible current and future TS player has more Rubrics than they need. Which is absurd. Yes, GW wants current TS players to keep buying stuff. They couldn't fit in any new models so they ported some over. That does not mean that they'll never sell Rubrics again, which means that Rubrics will not be left to rot.

5) I still play my Tau strike teams in games even though drones are more efficient, because it's the way I want to play.

The reason people think you are overreacting is because EVERYONE is in the same boat as you. People wanted things and didn't get them. So move on. Relax. Take a break from the hobby if you have to. TS will be what GW makes them. But at the end of the day, no one is forcing you to buy Tzaangors.

Also 3 unknown warlord traits and multiple unknown relics.

Possible second half of legion tactic (something supposedly helping cultists be useful? Theoretical possible that it let's you sacrifice chaff to avoid perils) .

And the fact every single TS unique unit may have new rules we don't know of.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Also 3 unknown warlord traits and multiple unknown relics.

Possible second half of legion tactic (something supposedly helping cultists be useful? Theoretical possible that it let's you sacrifice chaff to avoid perils) .

And the fact every single TS unique unit may have new rules we don't know of.

With the WC on most of those spells, I am really hoping for a +1/2 to casting or something. The WC for Doombolt and Firestorm seem pretty ridiculous.

High warp charge cost is probably a balancing factor.

Every list at 1500-2000 I have written since I got more information (Majority of dex) has had around 12+ casts in a turn.

Ahriman, Exalted, Sorcerers x2, squad leaders x2-3. so 11-13 casts a bloody turn; we will be fine even with a 40% failure rate. cool your jets.

rubrics and scarab occult are going to rule, Scarab Occult especially now that we basically have a self-sufficient death star at ten with 4 guns. Not sure what the hell else you want. lol. Ill be spamming rubrics and SOT for dang sure. (well 3-4 or so units most games)

Dandelion wrote:
1) "Admech is fully fleshed out" - Not according to Admech players, who all desperately want a transport, either a rhino or any one of the myriad 30k ones. Maybe you just can't tell because they never made a thread called "Admech is dead..."

I'm not on the up and up on Ad mech, but I would say being able to deliver a 10 man CC squad, which gets a 3++ after wiping out a unit for the rest of the game is a bit OP.

Dandelion wrote:
2) What new Guard did I want? Rough Riders. Instead they took those out of the codex. THEY TOOK A UNIT AWAY! A unit that I am particularly fond of. I also would have liked any of the metal regiments to be done in plastic. It would have only taken 3 kits to do so. Much like how you were complaining that GW was too lazy to throw in a kit or two.

Yeah because taking away a Gurad unit is taking away 1.5% of what you have available while taking 1 unit away from TS would be 25%. Almost the same thing.

Dandelion wrote:
3) You know what army was seriously lacking? Custodes. They only had 3 unit entries and no HQ. Does that mean you think GW was correct in giving them new units?

They never should have created them in the first place. They don't need ANOTHER SM faction.

Dandelion wrote:
4) You're assumption is that every possible current and future TS player has more Rubrics than they need. Which is absurd. Yes, GW wants current TS players to keep buying stuff. They couldn't fit in any new models so they ported some over. That does not mean that they'll never sell Rubrics again, which means that Rubrics will not be left to rot.

And I never said they would never sell any Rubrics. If your going to strawman my argument then please be less obvious.

Dandelion wrote:
5) I still play my Tau strike teams in games even though drones are more efficient, because it's the way I want to play.

And...Tau infantry are a staple of the army.

Dandelion wrote:
The reason people think you are overreacting is because EVERYONE is in the same boat as you. People wanted things and didn't get them. So move on. Relax. Take a break from the hobby if you have to. TS will be what GW makes them. But at the end of the day, no one is forcing you to buy Tzaangors.

Which still doesn't prove me wrong, it proves me MORE right. If what your saying is true then this site is quite possibly the biggest example of learned helplessness on the planet.

They never should have created them in the first place. They don't need ANOTHER SM faction.

Given what you desire is Tsons without Tzaangors, and Rubrics with heavy weapons.. You know all you want is basically a SM CSM codex right? That's essentially a SM statline army with a few gimmicks nothing more. It's another power armored faction given life that's essentially just another knockoff of Space Marines.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

They never should have created them in the first place. They don't need ANOTHER SM faction.

Given what you desire is Tsons without Tzaangors, and Rubrics with heavy weapons.. You know all you want is basically a SM CSM codex right? That's essentially a SM statline army with a few gimmicks nothing more. It's another power armored faction given life that's essentially just another knockoff of Space Marines.

When did I say no Tzaangors? Please direct link the post.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

They never should have created them in the first place. They don't need ANOTHER SM faction.

Given what you desire is Tsons without Tzaangors, and Rubrics with heavy weapons.. You know all you want is basically a SM CSM codex right? That's essentially a SM statline army with a few gimmicks nothing more. It's another power armored faction given life that's essentially just another knockoff of Space Marines.

I dont agree with the OP but I think you are on the wrong track here.

And to the OP. Look, the codex is what it is. You have the option to provide feedback once it has landed. Anything before is wasted effort, and that is what most of us are trying to tell you but you just wont listen. You can still field your army from 7th. Nothing is invalidated. And you state you are worried how competitive they are? Ive got news for you. They never were competitive outside of Magnus + DP spam. And to my knowledge that list had zero rubrics as well and used cheap tzaangies to provide troop reqs. So nothing has changed for the worse, and has changed for the better for many players who now have more options. Infact, rubrics got better in this edition. If you are worried about perils then you are playing the wrong faction my friend. Its going to happen and it will suck. Most likely what will change for the worse is that MSU rubrics are now not a good idea due to the risk of perils.

All in all, you do have points. Sure I wish we got more power armor models. But we did not. Nothing you say or do will change that fact. If you have to eat a #### sandwich, its best to try to enjoy it. Because either way, bon appetit!

 Sasori wrote:


With the WC on most of those spells, I am really hoping for a +1/2 to casting or something. The WC for Doombolt and Firestorm seem pretty ridiculous.

Doombolt is ridiculously good though.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Sasori wrote:


With the WC on most of those spells, I am really hoping for a +1/2 to casting or something. The WC for Doombolt and Firestorm seem pretty ridiculous.

Doombolt is ridiculously good though.

What this guy said!

Yeah its a high-cast value....put it on Ahriman and use Cabalistic Ritual, getting +3 to the cast, so its a what? 6+ to cast? it may as well remove a unit from the game for assault purposes, so any assault-oriented units will be incredibly slow, or any units needing to move at all. Added bonus is that it targets the model. so you can "snipe" with it. It HAD to be high cast value to balance it in our list.

Thats probably why statistically they had to be on the "lighter" side of hitting (60% ish) chance of most spells work, if they all worked and we have 12+ spells to throw.....I can forsee most lists having trouble dealing with us as of this moment right now, Imagine if that stat was higher. It would be totally unfair in every respect to most other armies barring perhaps eldar.

Especially with our range boost.
Doombolt as a 7 cost, or even as an 8 could invalidate entire army lists.

Remember, you PICK spells right before deployment. each spell you have that's a silver bullet answer is a powerhouse because you will always have it when you need it, and never when you don't.

Especially in an army like ours is shaping to be where you can have every single silver bullet you want. if we could assure we kick them all off easily, we would be broken.


We got 18 spells to pick from. 18.
Some are always good to have.
Some depends on your own list rather than the enemy.
But some just brutalize a opponent that happens to be susceptible to them.

For example, doombolt can completely shut down a melee doomstar (or a melee superheavy) on its own by just making them absurdly slow, and it does that from a rather large distance.
The high number of targeted MW spells can break apart a combo that relies on a hidden character.
Infernal gateway utterly shatters a formation of densly-packed MSU units.
Treason of tzeentch is insanly hard to pull off, but can annihilate character-driven forces from within

All these spells HAVE to be difficult to pull off, because you only take them when they matter-there are enough "always useful" fillers, and when they matter they are incredible.

Don't forget Death Hex, which I pulled off on Mortarion in my last game, that can just obliterate certain units.

To add on to your point, take a look at Eldar. Two psychic disciplines, 12 powers (not counting Harlequins and Ynnari). Only 2 of those 12 powers deal mortal wounds. Contrast this to Thousand Sons. Three psychic disciplines, 18 powers (and yes I'm counting the Daemon one because Magnus and Daemon Princes can access them) 5 of those 18 powers deal mortal wounds. The Smite nerf was to cut down on mortal wound spam from super efficient psykers, Thousand Sons can bypass it somewhat with 5 separate damage spells. Add Smite in to the mix with potential casting bonuses from models like Magnus and Ahriman and you're also reliably looking at two-three successful Smites a turn. You could make a case that the high casting values are a way to restrict how many mortal wounds you can dish out, especially as we can mega-buff our units' damage output with psychic/stratagem/Mutalith buffs. On top of that, all our damage spells get an extra 6" range, meaning denying them is a lot harder for our opponents should we wish it, and also that we can start casting damage spells earlier in the game than normal. Perils is the main concern, so we'll see what type of Perils mitigation exists outside of Magnus. If it's just Magnus, that's another matter entirely.

Doombolt can be a game-winning spell if you get it off on the right unit, but yeah, the casting value demands you burn Command Points/Magnus/Ahriman to get it off. The other super important note about our damage spells and their high casting values is that most of them can choose which unit they target unlike Smite, if the casting values were too low combined with our +6 to power ranges, characters wouldn't stand a chance in hell against Thousand Sons armies.

So the Mutalith Vortex Beast buffs are basically Canticles of the Omnissiah for TS. Pick one you want or Roll and you get 2 random buffs

 The Sentinel wrote:
So the Mutalith Vortex Beast buffs are basically Canticles of the Omnissiah for TS. Pick one you want or Roll and you get 2 random buffs

Except better!