IHateNids wrote:
He just said that he went first, and the marine player conceded T1...

Oh wow, I missed that.
Huh, that's some good shooting. I think the marine player might have made some poor deployment choices. Some screening would have been useful.

There's several threads dedicated to why Marines dont have Screens anymore...

either way, it's chill, I did a double check as well

 Sasori wrote:

Pyrothem wrote:
They also said that Necrons would get the biggest change from index to codex... what really changed?

Wraiths up to 2 damage and up in points?

While your hyperbole is great and all, there were a lot of changes from the Index to the codex. Dynasties, stratagems, artifacts. Several units got significant buffs like destroyers and the DD Ark, C'tan, the Vault, etc..etc.. I'm not going to go through every single change, but yes, the changes were significant.

That being said, they clearly failed when it came to points costs for many units. If we go by what they said, this has been recognized and we should get some appropriate drops to many of our units. I am hopeful at least.

Changes from Index to Codex:

*Dynasties, more powers of the C'tan, Relics, Stratagems and Warlord Traits.
*Lower prices for Overlords, Lords, Crypteks, Deathmarks, Flayed Ones, Destroyers, Tomb Blades, Canoptek Spyder, Heavy Destroyers, Dispersion Shields, Heavy Gauss Cannons. <s>Of course, Monoliths got cheaper as well.</s> whoops, seems someone forgot to buff the Monolith.
*Lords let you re-roll Wound rolls of 1 for nearby Infantry units instead of giving them a worthless Morale bonus.
*C'tan know one extra power each.
*You get -1 to hit when shooting at Tomb Blades.
*Gauss cannons fire 3 S6 shots instead of 2 S5 shots.
*Transcendent C'tan get a personality trait or two if you are willing to roll randomly.
*Doomsday Ark fires D6 shots all the time rather than D3 normally and D6 while firing the big profile at units with 10+ models.
*Tesseract Vault gets a 4+ invulnerable save.
*Wraiths are more expensive, they can now fall back and charge and they are AP-2 D2 instead of AP-1 D1.
*Scarabs are WS4+ instead of 3+.
*Flayed Ones lost an attack.
*Doomsday Ark gets hovering... Annihilation Barge and Catacomb Command Barge eventually get it through Errata.

 vict0988 wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

Pyrothem wrote:
They also said that Necrons would get the biggest change from index to codex... what really changed?

Wraiths up to 2 damage and up in points?

While your hyperbole is great and all, there were a lot of changes from the Index to the codex. Dynasties, stratagems, artifacts. Several units got significant buffs like destroyers and the DD Ark, C'tan, the Vault, etc..etc.. I'm not going to go through every single change, but yes, the changes were significant.

That being said, they clearly failed when it came to points costs for many units. If we go by what they said, this has been recognized and we should get some appropriate drops to many of our units. I am hopeful at least.

Changes from Index to Codex:

*Dynasties, more powers of the C'tan, Relics, Stratagems and Warlord Traits.
*Lower prices for Overlords, Lords, Crypteks, Deathmarks, Flayed Ones, Destroyers, Tomb Blades, Canoptek Spyder, Heavy Destroyers, Dispersion Shields, Heavy Gauss Cannons. <s>Of course, Monoliths got cheaper as well.</s> whoops, seems someone forgot to buff the Monolith.
*Lords let you re-roll Wound rolls of 1 for nearby Infantry units instead of giving them a worthless Morale bonus.
*C'tan know one extra power each.
*You get -1 to hit when shooting at Tomb Blades.
*Gauss cannons fire 3 S6 shots instead of 2 S5 shots.
*Transcendent C'tan get a personality trait or two if you are willing to roll randomly.
*Doomsday Ark fires D6 shots all the time rather than D3 normally and D6 while firing the big profile at units with 10+ models.
*Tesseract Vault gets a 4+ invulnerable save.
*Wraiths are more expensive, they can now fall back and charge and they are AP-2 D2 instead of AP-1 D1.
*Scarabs are WS4+ instead of 3+.
*Flayed Ones lost an attack.
*Doomsday Ark gets hovering... Annihilation Barge and Catacomb Command Barge eventually get it through Errata.

Thanks for the list!

This will help when we get the CA, so we can see from Index-Codex-Chapter Approved.

 vict0988 wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

Pyrothem wrote:
They also said that Necrons would get the biggest change from index to codex... what really changed?

Wraiths up to 2 damage and up in points?

While your hyperbole is great and all, there were a lot of changes from the Index to the codex. Dynasties, stratagems, artifacts. Several units got significant buffs like destroyers and the DD Ark, C'tan, the Vault, etc..etc.. I'm not going to go through every single change, but yes, the changes were significant.

That being said, they clearly failed when it came to points costs for many units. If we go by what they said, this has been recognized and we should get some appropriate drops to many of our units. I am hopeful at least.

Changes from Index to Codex:

*Dynasties, more powers of the C'tan, Relics, Stratagems and Warlord Traits.
*Lower prices for Overlords, Lords, Crypteks, Deathmarks, Flayed Ones, Destroyers, Tomb Blades, Canoptek Spyder, Heavy Destroyers, Dispersion Shields, Heavy Gauss Cannons. <s>Of course, Monoliths got cheaper as well.</s> whoops, seems someone forgot to buff the Monolith.
*Lords let you re-roll Wound rolls of 1 for nearby Infantry units instead of giving them a worthless Morale bonus.
*C'tan know one extra power each.
*You get -1 to hit when shooting at Tomb Blades.
*Gauss cannons fire 3 S6 shots instead of 2 S5 shots.
*Transcendent C'tan get a personality trait or two if you are willing to roll randomly.
*Doomsday Ark fires D6 shots all the time rather than D3 normally and D6 while firing the big profile at units with 10+ models.
*Tesseract Vault gets a 4+ invulnerable save.
*Wraiths are more expensive, they can now fall back and charge and they are AP-2 D2 instead of AP-1 D1.
*Scarabs are WS4+ instead of 3+.
*Flayed Ones lost an attack.
*Doomsday Ark gets hovering... Annihilation Barge and Catacomb Command Barge eventually get it through Errata.

Scarabs and Spyders both got FLY.
Spyders only take 1 MW on a failed Scarab Hive roll, as opposed to the D3 from the index.

Oh man I'd be so happy if they made scarab farms a thing again. I didn't play during 6th or 7th so I missed out on that playstyle.

Doctoralex wrote:
Had a véry short game against a Raven guard gunline of hellblasters, lasdevs and predators.

I won't go into my list in full detail but two things:

Quantum Shielding is just so amazing when your opponent has no answer to it.
When the Deceiver rolls well (going first, roll a 3 for Grand Illusion).... hoooly gak. 40x Warriors and a Cryptek, followed by an Overlord who Veil'd up 10 Tesla Immortals. (Mephrit btw)

Killed 10 Hellblasters, 8 Devastators and plucked the odd scout here and there. The two DDA's made mincemeat of a Predator. My opponent conceded at the start of his turn....

This... is not a very indicative game. You got the extreme high roll of maximum Grand Illusion value going first against a fairly weak list.

So just switching up my army now from Tau to Necrons as a bit more of a change of pace. I don't really like the play style of Tau much right now so want something more well rounded for close combat but also have some shooty stuff.

What kind of list could I make with the following (got a sweet deal on this). I was thinking of doing a unit of 10 lychgaurd with shields and putting them in a nightsythe, leading the army with a CCB and a cryptek with all the warriors and the unit of immortals then using the scarabs and the wraiths for more close combat.

24 warriors
5 immortals with gauss
5 deathmarks
6 Tomb blades
1 Doomsday Ark
1 catacomb command barge
1 doomsythe
3 wraiths
3 scarab swarms
10 lychgaurd (unbuilt)
1 overlord
1 cryptek

I have been reading on here that the Flyers kind of suck tho and get targeted pretty quick? Does that mean I have to footslog the lychgaurd up the board? Was also considering using the Doomsday Ark as well!

Any help would be great

I lost an ITC game against an Ork horde list with my Supreme Novokh Construct list, I didn't forget my Flayed Ones but because my opponent denied DS very well I was able to do minimal damage with them before they got ganked. I was far too agressive, both with my Construct and my Nephrekh forces, which led to the Construct blowing up as many of my forces as my opponents, I could have either been more defensive with the Construct so it didn't blow or kept back my Immortals so they didn't die.

I lost an ITC game against a Harlequin newb with the same list. No Flayed Ones were heard or seen during the battle, if they had joined they would have won me the match. I deployed my Construct all the way back after out-deploying my opponent letting the Construct not be shot by any haywire cannons the entire game, it destroyed 4 characters, a couple of vehicles and a squad of Players over the course of the game, notably it did 0 damage with its obliterators turn 1-2 -1 to hit and 4+ invul is tough.

I won an ITC game with the same list against a list with 7 flyers, I killed the boots on the ground and won, Flayed Ones killed one of the units he had hiding in the back.

EDIT: I won an ITC game against Knights/Deathwatch with the same list. Only won by a couple of VP my opponent's crusader was mowing stuff down most of the game, although the Seraptek Construct did take a lot of heat off the rest of my army. The Seraptek Construct killed a Gallant, killed that Gallant again, a Watch Captain, a Helverin and finally 2 Scarabs and 5 Immortals. Flayed Ones were forgotten... Until turn 3, they failed their charge, took 15 casualties and ran away. Last game I'm using those until they get a pts drop, too risky to use. I'll brainstorm changes to my list, for now it looks like more Scarabs and more Immortals will replace the Flayed Ones.


I won an Eternal War game against a casual albeit Stygies Admech list with my Anrakyr Szeras Balance list, I took three units captive turn 2 and hid my Destroyers from his 3 Dunecrawlers the entire game. I forgot to consolidate with my Warriors turn 2 and my Triarch Praetorians turn 3. I forgot to use Szeras' buff turn 2 and forgot to fire my Immortals and Heavy Ds turn 3. I'm at quite a disadvantage with all the gak I forget because I always let my opponent's go back and try to point out when they forget things.



I won an ITC game with my triple Canoptek Tomb Sentinel list against a triple Riptide list. My infantry killed his infantry and I won on objectives.

I lost an ITC game with the same list against a triple Stormsurge list. Not enough anti-vehicle and this time around my opponent had enough firepower to kill me.

I think the list is poorly constructed, if I were to include Tomb Sentinels in another list it would be a heavily mechanized list (things without QS) otherwise DDAs are ten times better because of their lascannon resistance, with this army the Sentinels are the only good lascannon target which was poorly thought out. Sentinels are a poor choice for a competitive list, with the DS changes from CA 1 you're losing too much shooting when DDAs can shoot most anything on the board anyways and can't be blocked by DS denial.


I won an ITC game against a three Knight list including a Castellan with Cawl's Wrath with a Catachan Battalion pretty easily with my double Seraptek list. My opponent's list was far superior and with average rolls I would've been decimated but because of lucky rolls I was able to hang in there, exhaust his CP and kill all his stuff, otherwise I would've maybe gotten a minor loss because I would have been able to take board control even with poor rolls. Vault did about 6 unsaved wounds total each turn which is okay, but against defensive lists it's not OP like it is against medium range and melee lists. One thing to consider is how densely packed your boards are, I had to put one Construct behind the other because of lack of space, that's not conducive to winning games, so consider your average terrain setup before you go out and buy one of these beautiful but expensive beasts.

I figure there has been enough time that some people got some games in with our new toy.

Should I get a Seraptek? Is it worth the huge amount of points? It is such an awesome model...

Anyone heard anything about C.A rumours for us.. I've heard from a reliable source that were going to be pretty pissed. The t.v is going up and everything else is staying the same..

Sn33R wrote:
Anyone heard anything about C.A rumours for us.. I've heard from a reliable source that were going to be pretty pissed. The t.v is going up and everything else is staying the same..

I heard something similar that this is intentionally and this is how they should feel...but this was shortly before our codex dropped or shortly afterwards I cant remember.

Could be that they changed their minds but i definitely dont expect ANY datasheet/rule changes. Only small (symbolic) point drops (1poimt on warrior one on maybe FOs)

Morkphoiz wrote:
I figure there has been enough time that some people got some games in with our new toy.

Should I get a Seraptek? Is it worth the huge amount of points? It is such an awesome model...

I would say yes, because they're always going to be valid in lists. It may not be Meta-levels, but do we really expect that?

I havent had a chance to use mine yet, but knowing my local it'll become the newest thorn in everyone's side. It will be a terror to Nids, it will be great fun to take against anything remotely armoured (although maybe not full Tank Company Guard), may be worth something against Eldar but I'm not sure.

Also, the singularity generators and sweep attacks are going to add a lot of anti-horde to our codex, and since Orks seem to be a big thing now, that might be worth looking into.

Just me 2p.

ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:

Sn33R wrote:
Anyone heard anything about C.A rumours for us.. I've heard from a reliable source that were going to be pretty pissed. The t.v is going up and everything else is staying the same..

I heard something similar that this is intentionally and this is how they should feel...but this was shortly before our codex dropped or shortly afterwards I cant remember.

Could be that they changed their minds but i definitely dont expect ANY datasheet/rule changes. Only small (symbolic) point drops (1poimt on warrior one on maybe FOs)

Good on GW for not owning up to the fact that necrons are a poorly designed faction. Horrible internal synergies, massively inconsistent durability and arbitrary restrictions on rules, not because of mistakes, no no, that's clearly the feel they were going for with the army.

I shake my head in every direction

Morkphoiz wrote:
Should I get a Seraptek? Is it worth the huge amount of points? It is such an awesome model...

No, not worth the points. Horrible defense. Do you really want a 625 pt. model in your army that can die T1, or get severly crippled, before you even get to move it ?

Sn33R wrote:Anyone heard anything about C.A rumours for us.. I've heard from a reliable source that were going to be pretty pissed. The t.v is going up and everything else is staying the same..

Strange, rvd1ofakind was very sure we get big point drops on many units......

IHateNids wrote:
Also, the singularity generators and sweep attacks are going to add a lot of anti-horde to our codex, and since Orks seem to be a big thing now, that might be worth looking into.

We already have good anti horde, tesla immortals. They are also much less expensive.

Kahi the Uncertain wrote:

ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:

Sn33R wrote:
Anyone heard anything about C.A rumours for us.. I've heard from a reliable source that were going to be pretty pissed. The t.v is going up and everything else is staying the same..

I heard something similar that this is intentionally and this is how they should feel...but this was shortly before our codex dropped or shortly afterwards I cant remember.

Could be that they changed their minds but i definitely dont expect ANY datasheet/rule changes. Only small (symbolic) point drops (1poimt on warrior one on maybe FOs)

Good on GW for not owning up to the fact that necrons are a poorly designed faction. Horrible internal synergies, massively inconsistent durability and arbitrary restrictions on rules, not because of mistakes, no no, that's clearly the feel they were going for with the army.

I shake my head in every direction

My information on that comes from July (though I know there are others who have reported something similar), so it's entirely possible they've changed their perspective on the faction as a whole. However, if that's true, they've chosen to not showcase that change in any way for some unknown reason. It's more likely, but not guaranteed, that their opinions on the army as a whole haven't really changed since then.

Darsath wrote:

Kahi the Uncertain wrote:

ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:

Sn33R wrote:
Anyone heard anything about C.A rumours for us.. I've heard from a reliable source that were going to be pretty pissed. The t.v is going up and everything else is staying the same..

I heard something similar that this is intentionally and this is how they should feel...but this was shortly before our codex dropped or shortly afterwards I cant remember.

Could be that they changed their minds but i definitely dont expect ANY datasheet/rule changes. Only small (symbolic) point drops (1poimt on warrior one on maybe FOs)

Good on GW for not owning up to the fact that necrons are a poorly designed faction. Horrible internal synergies, massively inconsistent durability and arbitrary restrictions on rules, not because of mistakes, no no, that's clearly the feel they were going for with the army.

I shake my head in every direction

My information on that comes from July (though I know there are others who have reported something similar), so it's entirely possible they've changed their perspective on the faction as a whole. However, if that's true, they've chosen to not showcase that change in any way for some unknown reason. It's more likely, but not guaranteed, that their opinions on the army as a whole haven't really changed since then.

Candidly, I’m pretty sure that like most other niche factions, they don’t really think about Necrons at all.

Which is fine. In casual formats, we’re pretty rockin’! And there will always be a top tier and under performing tiers in competitive anyway, so it’s irrelevant who it is.

 p5freak wrote:

Strange, rvd1ofakind was very sure we get big point drops on many units......

IHateNids wrote:
Also, the singularity generators and sweep attacks are going to add a lot of anti-horde to our codex, and since Orks seem to be a big thing now, that might be worth looking into.

No, that was for the big FAQ, remember?

Kahi the Uncertain wrote:

ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:

Sn33R wrote:
Anyone heard anything about C.A rumours for us.. I've heard from a reliable source that were going to be pretty pissed. The t.v is going up and everything else is staying the same..

I heard something similar that this is intentionally and this is how they should feel...but this was shortly before our codex dropped or shortly afterwards I cant remember.

Could be that they changed their minds but i definitely dont expect ANY datasheet/rule changes. Only small (symbolic) point drops (1poimt on warrior one on maybe FOs)

Good on GW for not owning up to the fact that necrons are a poorly designed faction. Horrible internal synergies, massively inconsistent durability and arbitrary restrictions on rules, not because of mistakes, no no, that's clearly the feel they were going for with the army.

I shake my head in every direction

Well g dub said that wolves players will love their codex.. how wrong were they.
To be honest I'm surprised they even bother with our codex. I was reading on a another thread someone reckons admech are worse than us.

 p5freak wrote:

Morkphoiz wrote:
Should I get a Seraptek? Is it worth the huge amount of points? It is such an awesome model...

No, not worth the points. Horrible defense. Do you really want a 625 pt. model in your army that can die T1, or get severly crippled, before you even get to move it?

That's literally anything at all in the game right now though?

If you judge a unit by it's ability to survive insurmountable T1 firepower, there's no point in playing at all.

You take this thing because it can nuke two knights in a turn without too much of the maths favoring you. None of our other units can do that.

We already have good anti horde, tesla immortals. They are also much less expensive.

Having more than one option is nice.

From the Ork codex faq:

Q: If a Goff Gorkanaut attacks a unit with the Crush profile
of the Klaw of Gork (or possibly Mork), and the unmodified hit
roll is a 6 (allowing him to make an extra hit roll with the Klaw
due to the No Mukkin’ About kultur), does the extra hit roll
have to be made using the same profile, or can it be made with
the weapon’s other profile instead?
A: The extra hit roll is made using the same profile.

I'm assuming this would apply to a Novokh Seraptek within 6" of a model with the Crimson Haze trait, providing an answer to the discussion that was going on a few pages back

 IHateNids wrote:

That's literally anything at all in the game right now though?

Not really. Some units can hide out of LOS, some can be put into reinforcements, some units can get cover with the prepared positions stratagems, some units have quantum shielding. The seraptek monstrosity cant do any of these i mentioned.

 IHateNids wrote:

You take this thing because it can nuke two knights in a turn without too much of the maths favoring you. None of our other units can do that.

Two naked knights maybe, but not two with relics/warlord traits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

torblind wrote:

No, that was for the big FAQ, remember?

No, he did say point drops will come with CA.

Yeah I was being half seriously only. Think he reworded his earlier statement back then

Yes, naked knights, but let’s be real the obnoxious combo can only be on one, in which case you focus fire & attacks and get rid.

It stands, thanks to the high wuund count and 5++ as a reasonable lump

It will not survive against ITC optimism, but there’s a) not much that will, and b) not a lot “normal” it wouldn’t wether (unless ITC is the only thing you have near you, I which case, I am sorry)

If you opponent want to nuke it he will, only at that point your other, arguably more useful stuff remains completely unharmed to be math guaranteed


@Morkphoiz, I still say get it, just because every report I’ve seen one in says the same, paraphrased to “good but not overpowered enough for life in competition”

Sn33R wrote:
Anyone heard anything about C.A rumours for us.. I've heard from a reliable source that were going to be pretty pissed. The t.v is going up and everything else is staying the same..

Ehh, I feel like GW has plenty of data to pull from at this point. I feel like we will get some pretty good point drops.

Apparently Deathmarks are going to go down by 2 points, but I don't know if that's true.
Source

taetrius67 wrote:
I have heard from French wargaming studio that Deathmarks will be 2 points less after Ca.

Somehow I got the stupid idea that only the stuff in the new battleforce gets point drops

Kahi the Uncertain wrote:
From the Ork codex faq:

Q: If a Goff Gorkanaut attacks a unit with the Crush profile
of the Klaw of Gork (or possibly Mork), and the unmodified hit
roll is a 6 (allowing him to make an extra hit roll with the Klaw
due to the No Mukkin’ About kultur), does the extra hit roll
have to be made using the same profile, or can it be made with
the weapon’s other profile instead?
A: The extra hit roll is made using the same profile.

I'm assuming this would apply to a Novokh Seraptek within 6" of a model with the Crimson Haze trait, providing an answer to the discussion that was going on a few pages back

Yeah that seemed the most reasonable interpretation, the Novokh Seraptek still nukes Knights. You really don't need 24 stomps and 6 giga-chainsword attacks to kill a Knight, 10 attacks with the giga-chainsword profile is usually more than enough and against Boyz getting to attack with the bigger profile changes nothing.


I won an ITC game against Tau on turn 1 going first Deceivering 3 units with my new Nephrekh C'tan list. I rolled very well so my opponent had around 1k pts left before his first turn.

I won an ITC game against Dark Angels on my opponents turn 1 after having gone first with the same list. My opponent had 1900 left at the start of his turn, 700 at the end of his turn from a big Vault Explosion.

I won an ITC game against Thousand Sons with a couple of Plagueburst Crawlers with the same list turn 1 going first. Another 3 for the Deceiver, forgot to Advance and charge my Wraiths and didn't switch out Anti-matter Meteor on my Nightbringer for a third Cosmic Fire.

This list isn't really fun to pilot when your opponent just castles up and takes the MW challenge, then surrenders after you get first turn and nuke them into orbit. How much do I need to warn my opponents? Do I need to specifically say I'm going to beat them turn 1 if they don't screen against me infiltrating and doing a cosmic fire bomb turn 1? When you're taking a competitive list I don't think I need to explain how my combos work, as long as I explain all the pieces of the combo, the rest you ought to be able to figure out yourself if you're "good enough" to bring a competitive list and willing to play ITC. For now I'm just going to shelve the Deceiver bombs for very experienced players or when I'm playing in a tournament.


I won an ITC game against Thousand Sons with a couple of Plagueburst Crawlers with my new Destroyer DDA spam list. Triarch Stalker was bad, everything else more or less worked. I did waste 2 CP adding 1 to hit rolls against a unit, better to keep my meagre CP for re-roll everything on the Destroyers.


I tied an Eternal War game against a Tyranid newbie with my new Novokh Spyder Spam list. Spyders weren't as horrible as I feared, but they only managed to do something because my opponent flung his Genestealers into the middle of my army, letting me counter-charge, having 3 Deny the Witches each turn was very neat. Spyders are relatively easy to kill, but in this army they're less important targets than the Destroyers for lascannons and lasguns are better spent on Scarabs. I managed to get a total of 6 Scarabs back, pretty bad. 20 pts for 6 S6 AP- D1 shots hitting on 4s is stupidly overpriced. Spyders are just bad.

Yeah, Spyders need like a 20 pt drop or the character keyword to not be the worst unit in the codex

I actually ran a proxy Seraptek HC this evening vs Dark Angels.
It got its points back but was dead by turn 3, blowing up and killing the stuff that killed it in kind.
Nuked a Land Raider
Nuked a Squad of Aggressors
Charged and Wiped Out Land Raider Contents
Killed Librarian in Assault.

Ate a LOT of Plasma Inceptor Fire, Crippling it.

Moved into melee with Plasceptors
Killed 2
They fell back, it blew up, killing the rest of them.

Honestly, my earlier assessment was accurate. Solid Combat/damage output, slightly fragile. Had trouble keeping a cloaktek behind it to keep it healing reliably.

Is it possible to make an effective necron army without destroyers?

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
Is it possible to make an effective necron army

I can stop you right there and say no. :p

Anyone have a useful answer?

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
Is it possible to make an effective necron army without destroyers?

If no Super Heavy allowed, then defintely a no.

Otherwise, try get your hand on the new Forge World "Canoptekh Construct". That might be your saviour.

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
Is it possible to make an effective necron army without destroyers?

Yes, with 3 tvaults.



Place the tvaults on objective markers and play reclaim a lost empire on them, until you run out of CP. You can play it multiple times, because its outside of a phase. The cloakteks will restore wounds on them. If the rumors are true that the tvault goes up in points this list will no longer be possible.

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
Is it possible to make an effective necron army without destroyers?

These are my non-casual lists that don't have Destroyers, they all have Titanic units in them, part of that is pts being really tight when you're bringing a 500 pt model. I've used all these lists against other people's competitive lists and have beaten some handidly and gotten handidly beat other times. Destroyers are good anti-TEQ and anti-MEQ, with a CP they're good anti-vehicle and anti-monstrous creature, the amount of diversity the unit brings is hard to replace, but the Tesseract Vault is able to spew out mortal wounds in six different varieties based on the enemy you're facing and can spit out a lot of S7 AP- shots as well which does okay against most things which makes it an almost equally versatile choice, the Vault does suffer against gunlines if you're not bringing the Deceiver, but it is much more devastating against some lists. AFAIK many modern competitive Necron lists actually don't bring Destroyers because they're bringing 3 Vaults. The Seraptek has two different melee profiles which makes it very versatile, building lists around one of those is a good idea if you don't have/want to use Destroyers. DDAs are amazing, it just so happens that when I include a DDA I almost always also include Destroyers, building a list around 3 DDAs and a crap-ton of Tesla Immortals is also a fine list, if not quite as good as a version of that same list, but with a unit (or three units) of 6 Destroyers.

In short: yes, Destroyers are amazing, but Vaults are better and DDAs are almost as good. The Seraptek Heavy Construct can also catch a lot of people off guard for now, which makes it pretty good.

Vaults are super heavy vehicles that are like 10x the cost though, so of course they are better.
DDA are pretty nice. Pretty much the only good long range fire support unit we have.
I mean, we have Heavy Destroyers and Triarch Stalkers, but those aren't that good.

So my I am getting back in after not having played since 6th, my wife is joining me and she really wants to play necrons. While I am aware that Necron's aren't the most competitive we have been working on a list for her. I was just looking for some opinions on this list that we made based on what she has.

Wraiths should be ran naked, IMO. I'd also recommend proxying the Ghost Ark as a Doomsday Ark and seeing if you can remove the overlord from one of those command barges so he can be used on foot.

Deathofclubs wrote:
So my I am getting back in after not having played since 6th, my wife is joining me and she really wants to play necrons. While I am aware that Necron's aren't the most competitive we have been working on a list for her. I was just looking for some opinions on this list that we made based on what she has.

Spoiler:

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Necrons) [52 PL, 968pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Dynasty Choice: Dynasty: Mephrit

+ HQ +

Catacomb Command Barge [9 PL, 169pts]: Gauss Cannon, Warscythe

Catacomb Command Barge [9 PL, 169pts]: Gauss Cannon, Warscythe

+ Troops +

Immortals [8 PL, 170pts]: 10x Immortal, Tesla Carbine

Necron Warriors [6 PL, 120pts]: 10x Necron Warrior

Necron Warriors [12 PL, 180pts]: 15x Necron Warrior

+ Dedicated Transport +

Ghost Ark [8 PL, 160pts]

++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Necrons) [51 PL, 1032pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Dynasty Choice: Dynasty: Novokh

+ HQ +

Destroyer Lord [7 PL, 131pts]: Artefact (Novokh): The Blood Scythe, Phylactery, Warlord, Warscythe

+ Elites +

C'tan Shard of the Nightbringer [12 PL, 210pts]: Power of the C'tan: Cosmic Fire, Power of the C'tan: Transdimensional Thunderbolt

Flayed Ones [8 PL, 170pts]: 10x Flayed One

+ Fast Attack +

Canoptek Scarabs [2 PL, 39pts]: 3x Canoptek Scarab Swarm

Canoptek Scarabs [2 PL, 39pts]: 3x Canoptek Scarab Swarm

Canoptek Scarabs [2 PL, 39pts]: 3x Canoptek Scarab Swarm

Canoptek Wraiths [9 PL, 202pts]
. 2x Canoptek Wraith (Transdimensional Beamer): 2x Transdimensional Beamer
. Canoptek Wraith (Whip Coils): Whip Coils

Canoptek Wraiths [9 PL, 202pts]
. 2x Canoptek Wraith (Transdimensional Beamer): 2x Transdimensional Beamer
. Canoptek Wraith (Whip Coils): Whip Coils

++ Total: [103 PL, 2000pts] ++

Are these the only models you have? Its very light in the anti vehicle department, aside from attempting to lock them up in CC with Wraiths.

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
Is it possible to make an effective necron army without destroyers?

You'd be hard pressed without them. Destroyers make up most of your multi damage dealers and without them you'll struggle against anything with more than a few wounds.

You could compensate with a few other units like DDA, but decent sized units of destroyers with Extermination Protocols is too good to pass up.

 NurglesR0T wrote:

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
Is it possible to make an effective necron army without destroyers?

You'd be hard pressed without them. Destroyers make up most of your multi damage dealers and without them you'll struggle against anything with more than a few wounds.

You could compensate with a few other units like DDA, but decent sized units of destroyers with Extermination Protocols is too good to pass up.

It's regularly argued that you can't make an effective necron army full stop.

The two list cores that are most regularly built off of with any feign of success are:
1) three Doomsday arks + a unit of 6 destroyers
2) three tesseract vaults

Normally option 1 has a second unit of destroyers and normally both options bring wraiths. Troops in option 1 is three units of ten imortals (normally all Tesla, but one Gauss is an option). If option two takes troops then it'll often be 3 units of 5 imortals.

I lost a game against Nids with my new Supreme Seraptek list with Wraiths instead of Flayed Ones. My opponent Seized and caused some major damage to my Construct, his Genestealers were unexpectedly tough which led to me getting shot to pieces by his Dakkafexes and Hiveguard. I thought my Immortals would be safe on the second floor of a ruin, but that actually just led to them getting charged without the option of Overwatch, poor choice.


I lost a game with my Nephrekh Vault list against a buncha boyz with lootas and Grots and some sneaky boyz. I got first turn, put three C'tan in my opponents face and killed two characters, then lost 900 pts worth of C'tan. Didn't properly wrap my Cryptek in Wraiths so he got killed. Running out of CP isn't much fun, especially not halfway through T1.


I won a game against a Crimson Fists newb with my Novokh Destroyer list. It used to be a Spyder spam list but I chose to cut 6 Spyders to get down to 1500 which made my list too strong against his Tac Marine spam list. Maybe I discouraged from getting 30 Tactical Marines so that's kind of nice even if my list wasn't.


I lost a game against a buncha boyz with lootas and Grots and a couple of jets with my Mephrit Night Scythe list, I moved my Night Scythes poorly, miscalculated my opponent's charge range and forgot to shoot with a unit of Immortals. Game was over T1 as he tagged all my Immortals and destroyed my TBs and two Night Scythes.


I won a game against an Aquila Strongpoint list with a bazillion Horrors and zombies with my 3x DDA 3x Destroyer list. My opponent put the Strongpoint on one side and most of his army on the other side. Strongpoint died T1 and all the Horrors and Zombies were useless against my ranged army with fly.

For those who've been waiting, The Cryptek with Canoptek Cloak goes on pre-order next weekend...

I know its pure speculation, but what formation(s) you think guys think Necrons might be getting.

I'm not familiar with formations from previous game editions. Was there a common formation? Which units were in it?

Doctoralex wrote:
I know its pure speculation, but what formation(s) you think guys think Necrons might be getting.

I'm not familiar with formations from previous game editions. Was there a common formation? Which units were in it?

I'm pretty sure that Games Workshop stated that the formations in the Vigilus campaign book will only be for those who participate in it, and we know that Necrons aren't in it atm. So I wouldn't expect any formations to be coming.

Doctoralex wrote:
I know its pure speculation, but what formation(s) you think guys think Necrons might be getting.

I'm not familiar with formations from previous game editions. Was there a common formation? Which units were in it?

Unless they slip some into chapter approved I've heard we aren't getting any. The formations are in the vigilous book and several factions aren't represented. Including necrons. I could be wrong though. Maybe there are a few pages someplace in the book for factions not involved fluffwise?

Another preview/teaser by GW and STILL NO word on Necrons. No new leak except the nerf...Im 75% sure we will get ignored in this CA.

Darsath wrote:

Doctoralex wrote:
I know its pure speculation, but what formation(s) you think guys think Necrons might be getting.

I'm not familiar with formations from previous game editions. Was there a common formation? Which units were in it?

I'm pretty sure that Games Workshop stated that the formations in the Vigilus campaign book will only be for those who participate in it, and we know that Necrons aren't in it atm. So I wouldn't expect any formations to be coming.

There will, however, be more campaign books in the future. At least one of them should have Necrons in it.

Knowing GW's apparent contempt for us though, they'll probably suck.

I have a question.
The spindle drone is not aligned, is it possible to play it in necron?

60pts of tax suits me perfectly for my 3rd troop

Edit : thx p5freak .

Poulpy wrote:

I have a question.
The spindle drone is not aligned, is it possible to play it in necron?

60pts of tax suits me perfectly for my 3rd troop

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/766533.page

Poulpy wrote:
I have a question.
The spindle drone is not aligned, is it possible to play it in necron?

60pts of tax suits me perfectly for my 3rd troop

Edit : thx p5freak .

They're hideously weak for a unit that can only be included in Auxiliary Support Detachments. Even if they're 44 pts (so just above what would be 2 PL, they'll be pretty bad I'm sure. No ObSec even though they're troops, -1 CP per unit, no Fly so they can get used as hostages, no AP on melee attacks, their pistols are stupidly weak at worst and meh at best, who's going to kill two and leave two alive? You're going to ignore them and then kill them all at once when you feel like it. I'd pay something like 4 pts per model for these, I think they'd be an auto-include in Necron lists around 0 pts, I don't think they'd be used in any other faction even if they were free.

Still better than Monoliths, wasting 1 CP and 60 pts is better than wasting 120 pts, but it's a close call! Hopefully the Spindle's will get an HQ and ObSec and some other good stuff in the future, they'd be okay in a few Necron armies if they had the Necron faction keyword, if Blackstone Fortress counted as everything then that would work.

Poulpy wrote:
I have a question.
The spindle drone is not aligned, is it possible to play it in necron?

60pts of tax suits me perfectly for my 3rd troop

Edit : thx p5freak .

If you want to lose your dynasty trait, sure. If you don't care then I guess you can do that.
If you want to keep your dynasty trait, they would have to be in a separate detachment.

I really don't see the point of Blackstone fortress units in regular games. They seem out of place and aren't that good.

In sautek dynasty it is not a problem for HQs and immortal tesla in a battalion.

I prefer to pay a tax of 60pts rather than 85 pts. But it is not possible, they can not be included in a battalion, just in auxiliary.

A picture of the campaign book has been leaked...as expected no formations for necrons

ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:
Another preview/teaser by GW and STILL NO word on Necrons. No new leak except the nerf...Im 75% sure we will get ignored in this CA.

Not according to the latest WC article: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/12/03/3rd-dec-chapter-approved-matched-playgw-homepage-post-1/

"As well as missions, we’ve taken the opportunity both to enshrine some Big FAQ rules in print as well as taking a look at points. As before, this review is pretty wide-ranging, but there are a few highlights…

Take the Necrons as an example – cool units like Triarch Praetorians have had a hefty reduction in points, making them a much more viable choice in a Necron army, and offering aspiring Overlords an interesting tactical option for their matched play forces."

So we've got at least something.

 Avatar 720 wrote:

ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:
Another preview/teaser by GW and STILL NO word on Necrons. No new leak except the nerf...Im 75% sure we will get ignored in this CA.

Not according to the latest WC article: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/12/03/3rd-dec-chapter-approved-matched-playgw-homepage-post-1/

"As well as missions, we’ve taken the opportunity both to enshrine some Big FAQ rules in print as well as taking a look at points. As before, this review is pretty wide-ranging, but there are a few highlights…

Take the Necrons as an example – cool units like Triarch Praetorians have had a hefty reduction in points, making them a much more viable choice in a Necron army, and offering aspiring Overlords an interesting tactical option for their matched play forces."

So we've got at least something.

Well then stupid me!

This aounds more like reductions but still im going for a 50% chance of symbolic/no reductions

To be fair, you posted yesterday and the article only appeared today

I mean, i could get down on cheaper Praetorians. Depending on price, i'd run a few to snag backfield objectives and bully ranged units.

Edit: but what i reeeeeaaaaalllly want is cheaper Lychguard....and fixed transports.

My problem with Praetorians is that even with a points decrease they are just overcharged plasma gun targets with no real purpose.

even though i love the model, they need more than just a points decrease

moonsmite wrote:
My problem with Praetorians is that even with a points decrease they are just overcharged plasma gun targets with no real purpose.

even though i love the model, they need more than just a points decrease

Not really no. I'm not sure how people get it in their head that a unit can't be good just because of its rules. The only thing that makes or breaks a unit is its cost. Literally, everything else is meaningless without that in context. A unit is good because what it does is worth its cost. You could literally have them sit on an objective if they were 5 pts per model and they'd be doing their pts worth. They're a lot like Genestealers offensively, without the Obsec and CP from being Troops but with Fly. They are quite a lot more survivable though so I'd say they're worth 15 pts on the worst of days. At 25 they are already pretty good and around 22 they are competitive.

 vict0988 wrote:

moonsmite wrote:
My problem with Praetorians is that even with a points decrease they are just overcharged plasma gun targets with no real purpose.

even though i love the model, they need more than just a points decrease

Not really no. I'm not sure how people get it in their head that a unit can't be good just because of its rules. The only thing that makes or breaks a unit is its cost. Literally, everything else is meaningless without that in context. A unit is good because what it does is worth its cost. You could literally have them sit on an objective if they were 5 pts per model and they'd be doing their pts worth. They're a lot like Genestealers offensively, without the Obsec and CP from being Troops but with Fly. They are quite a lot more survivable though so I'd say they're worth 15 pts on the worst of days. At 25 they are already pretty good and around 22 they are competitive.

They already cost 22 points. They aren't that good when compared to wraiths due to (invuln save, 3 wounds, higher str, fall back and charge, 2 damage attacks)

Yes, but they dont ake up the hotly-contested FA slot

if they became cheapr, I'd actively run my two units up the flank with my wraiths, so that way the important units can't be focused down

^^^ This is true, but thats why 90% of my lists are battalion + outrider, helps with that. But they'd be better at 20 points a model...100 points for 5. 200 for 10. I'd consider them again at that point.

That being said, seems like they are buffing the bejesus out of GK, so I'm hoping we'll follow suit.

moonsmite wrote:
My problem with Praetorians is that even with a points decrease they are just overcharged plasma gun targets with no real purpose.

even though i love the model, they need more than just a points decrease

This perspective blinds you to any balanced outcome bringing you joy.

It is entirely relevant if they get a points decrease, on the assumption this decrease is sufficient to make them more playable.

To provide an exaggerated example, if they cost the same as an Immortal, you’d play them in a heartbeat.

I did say that Praetorians were one of the units that I expected to see some points changes. However, I also predicted no changes to our HQs. Monolith coming down to 350 points etc, so we'll see. But so far, my information has been completely accurate, and I hope it isn't.

sieGermans wrote:

moonsmite wrote:
My problem with Praetorians is that even with a points decrease they are just overcharged plasma gun targets with no real purpose.

even though i love the model, they need more than just a points decrease

This perspective blinds you to any balanced outcome bringing you joy.

It is entirely relevant if they get a points decrease, on the assumption this decrease is sufficient to make them more playable.

To provide an exaggerated example, if they cost the same as an Immortal, you’d play them in a heartbeat.

Honestly with 10" movement and 12" weapons. I honestly would still debate. as if keeping back line then scarabs would be a cheaper option for holding objective as no point paying points for something which which wont get used. and running up with wraiths, they would get shot first as its an easier kill than the wraiths for the plasma or mass amount of 2/3 damage around these days.

Then you also think that if you go first they cant hit anything unless they advance (with a standard 24" gap) and cant be buffed as easy as no dynasty. So at the same points as an immortal, can see myself paying for more immortals.

moonsmite wrote:

sieGermans wrote:

moonsmite wrote:
My problem with Praetorians is that even with a points decrease they are just overcharged plasma gun targets with no real purpose.

even though i love the model, they need more than just a points decrease

This perspective blinds you to any balanced outcome bringing you joy.

It is entirely relevant if they get a points decrease, on the assumption this decrease is sufficient to make them more playable.

To provide an exaggerated example, if they cost the same as an Immortal, you’d play them in a heartbeat.

Honestly with 10" movement and 12" weapons. I honestly would still debate. as if keeping back line then scarabs would be a cheaper option for holding objective as no point paying points for something which which wont get used. and running up with wraiths, they would get shot first as its an easier kill than the wraiths for the plasma or mass amount of 2/3 damage around these days.

Then you also think that if you go first they cant hit anything unless they advance (with a standard 24" gap) and cant be buffed as easy as no dynasty. So at the same points as an immortal, can see myself paying for more immortals.

Honestly, I'd probably also go with Immortals aswell. Better damage output due to their ranged weapons, plus better Synergy and troops providing for better CPs. It's weird, but yeah, I'd still choose Immortals.

moonsmite wrote:

sieGermans wrote:

moonsmite wrote:
My problem with Praetorians is that even with a points decrease they are just overcharged plasma gun targets with no real purpose.

even though i love the model, they need more than just a points decrease

This perspective blinds you to any balanced outcome bringing you joy.

It is entirely relevant if they get a points decrease, on the assumption this decrease is sufficient to make them more playable.

To provide an exaggerated example, if they cost the same as an Immortal, you’d play them in a heartbeat.

Honestly with 10" movement and 12" weapons. I honestly would still debate. as if keeping back line then scarabs would be a cheaper option for holding objective as no point paying points for something which which wont get used. and running up with wraiths, they would get shot first as its an easier kill than the wraiths for the plasma or mass amount of 2/3 damage around these days.

Then you also think that if you go first they cant hit anything unless they advance (with a standard 24" gap) and cant be buffed as easy as no dynasty. So at the same points as an immortal, can see myself paying for more immortals.

Without going too far down the hypothetical rabbit hole, I hope you can consider how ridiculous it sounds to discount so quickly a 10” moving, 5T 2W model that has a 12” S5 AP-3 shot and 2A same profile CC... for the same cost as a TAC Marine? Like, that would be incredibly OP.

You probably need to reset your expectations or I guarantee you’ll never be happy with anything that gets release for Necrons ever.

I personally think everything in the codex should have a +1 to their save characteristic from where it's currently at. Armour on low toughness models is massively overrated in 8th, and the little bit of extra resilience would make rp a little less inconsistent.

It also never made sense to me that necrons who are literally suits of armour walking around, made from an almost indestructible material, have like no models with 2+ saves.

 iGuy91 wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

moonsmite wrote:
My problem with Praetorians is that even with a points decrease they are just overcharged plasma gun targets with no real purpose.

even though i love the model, they need more than just a points decrease

Not really no. I'm not sure how people get it in their head that a unit can't be good just because of its rules. The only thing that makes or breaks a unit is its cost. Literally, everything else is meaningless without that in context. A unit is good because what it does is worth its cost. You could literally have them sit on an objective if they were 5 pts per model and they'd be doing their pts worth. They're a lot like Genestealers offensively, without the Obsec and CP from being Troops but with Fly. They are quite a lot more survivable though so I'd say they're worth 15 pts on the worst of days. At 25 they are already pretty good and around 22 they are competitive.

They already cost 22 points. They aren't that good when compared to wraiths due to (invuln save, 3 wounds, higher str, fall back and charge, 2 damage attacks)

LOL after wargear obviously. I'm not sure with your follow-up comment about 5 for 100 if you're actually paying 22 currently. I like them a lot but I just haven't been taking them since the Fly nerf, huge bummer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kahi the Uncertain wrote:
I personally think everything in the codex should have a +1 to their save characteristic from where it's currently at. Armour on low toughness models is massively overrated in 8th, and the little bit of extra resilience would make rp a little less inconsistent.

It also never made sense to me that necrons who are literally suits of armour walking around, made from an almost indestructible material, have like no models with 2+ saves.

That's not a little bit of resilience, it might work if they also got -1 T though.

It takes a fair amount of plasma to kill praetorians, especially since they are immune to morale. With hits wounds and saves included (2/3 * 2/3 * 5/6 * 2 =) it ends up being about .74 damage per shot on average, which means it would take around 27 OC plasma shots to drop a unit of ten without them getting a chance to reanimate. It's doable for armies that bring a lot of plasma (like dark angels), and happen to be in rapid fire range, but it's no walk in the park. DA are kind of an outlier on that though, most armies don't bring that much plasma, because plasmas best targets (heavy infantry) are not common in the current meta because MEQ and TEQ kind of suck right now.

I think praetorians could have a place in lists if the price was right, but even if they are priced right, their best against MEQ and TEQ, which are pretty rare in the current meta. Who knows though, maybe with the points reductions for marines and terminators will give them a new lease on life.

I'd be much more interested in points reductions for lychguard, who with the improved tomb world deploy, can now drop from a night scythe, move and then assault vehicles with weapons that are pretty decent at opening up heavy vehicles.That would depend on lychguard being cheaper and night scythes being cheaper for it to be points effective.

 Grimgold wrote:
It takes a fair amount of plasma to kill praetorians, especially since they are immune to morale. With hits wounds and saves included (2/3 * 2/3 * 5/6 * 2 =) it ends up being about .74 damage per shot on average, which means it would take around 27 OC plasma shots to drop a unit of ten without them getting a chance to reanimate. It's doable for armies that bring a lot of plasma (like dark angels), and happen to be in rapid fire range, but it's no walk in the park. DA are kind of an outlier on that though, most armies don't bring that much plasma, because plasmas best targets (heavy infantry) are not common in the current meta because MEQ and TEQ kind of suck right now.

I think praetorians could have a place in lists if the price was right, but even if they are priced right, their best against MEQ and TEQ, which are pretty rare in the current meta. Who knows though, maybe with the points reductions for marines and terminators will give them a new lease on life.

I'd be much more interested in points reductions for lychguard, who with the improved tomb world deploy, can now drop from a night scythe, move and then assault vehicles with weapons that are pretty decent at opening up heavy vehicles.That would depend on lychguard being cheaper and night scythes being cheaper for it to be points effective.

Praetorians also have (almost) no synergy with anything in the army. There is few ways to buffs them, their weapons are no very good and as you said the 'preferential' targets (MEQ, even versus TEQ they are not that good) are not favored by the meta.

I wish GW changed something on their datasheet, small buff to give them a role in the army and change both loadout to make them more specialized. Like a damage 2 on both melee and shooting option of the Rod of covenant for example.
I'd like that their stratagem (which is a weaker MWBD) would work *both* for shooting and melee phase.

As they stands, even with point reduction, i find difficult to justify them when you have something like Wraiths or Destroyers.

What if Triarch units gave some sort of morale buff, to represent their role as being enforcers of the Triarch's will? Something like "Necron units within 6" only fail moral tests on a roll of a 6. If they fail, they lose D3 models."

Maybe a 6" re-roll Morale bubble?

 Grimgold wrote:
It takes a fair amount of plasma to kill praetorians, especially since they are immune to morale. With hits wounds and saves included (2/3 * 2/3 * 5/6 * 2 =) it ends up being about .74 damage per shot on average, which means it would take around 27 OC plasma shots to drop a unit of ten without them getting a chance to reanimate.

Most plasma weapons have two profiles one that does one damage at S7 AP-3/4 and one that does 2 damage at S8 AP-4, I think it's most reasonable to assume people are going to overcharge since people usually build their lists around minimizing the downside of overcharging plasma by re-rolling Hit rolls of 1. So the actual number of shots is 10*3/2*36/28=19 shots. That's a single round of shooting from a 10 man squad of Hellblasters at Rapid-Fire range. 10 Hellblasters cost 33 pts have -1 T and no Reanimation Protocols. They have a threat range of 36" and don't have to put themselves in nearly as much danger as a unit of Praetorians do to get damage done. Praetorians with some good terrain and good manouvering might outvalue Hellblasters on a busy 500 pt 4/4 board, but on a 2k pt 6/4 the Praetorians can't keep up. They don't have the support abilities Hellblasters do and Reanimation Protocols is far less strong.

Praetorians need some kind of really strong mobility Stratagem that allows them to quickly get where they need to be if they were to be fair in both small and large games. A Deep-Strike esque redployment instead of the pitiful +1 to hit in one phase could make them much better and wouldn't break smaller games I don't think. Alternatively the LD buff suggested would be another great way to make them better in bigger games, although at 32 pts I don't think it'd unreasonable to make everyone within 6" immune to Morale.

Yeah, Praetorians don't really have any place in a Necron list anyways. We already have Wraiths for a fast melee-focused unit and they don't have to worry about enemy Plasma or Dis Cannons mowing through their armour. In reality, Praetorians have the same damage output as an Immortal (S5 -3 AP with Mephrit if you want) but only in short range. I'd just keep away, and stick to Wraiths.

Agreed. I have trouble finding a way to justify them and Lychguard. Which sucks, because they are easily some of the best looking models in my army. And I want to run them.

 iGuy91 wrote:
Agreed. I have trouble finding a way to justify them and Lychguard. Which sucks, because they are easily some of the best looking models in my army. And I want to run them.

ScytheGuard supported do INSANE amount of dmg (Anrakyr for +1 attack, MWBD, +1Str strat). The hard thing is to bring them up the board.

Praetorians however...I dunno...As cool as they look, I dont think they fit in the Necron army at all (other than Fluff reasons)

 vict0988 wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:
It takes a fair amount of plasma to kill praetorians, especially since they are immune to morale. With hits wounds and saves included (2/3 * 2/3 * 5/6 * 2 =) it ends up being about .74 damage per shot on average, which means it would take around 27 OC plasma shots to drop a unit of ten without them getting a chance to reanimate.

Most plasma weapons have two profiles one that does one damage at S7 AP-3/4 and one that does 2 damage at S8 AP-4, I think it's most reasonable to assume people are going to overcharge since people usually build their lists around minimizing the downside of overcharging plasma by re-rolling Hit rolls of 1. So the actual number of shots is 10*3/2*36/28=19 shots. That's a single round of shooting from a 10 man squad of Hellblasters at Rapid-Fire range. 10 Hellblasters cost 33 pts have -1 T and no Reanimation Protocols. They have a threat range of 36" and don't have to put themselves in nearly as much danger as a unit of Praetorians do to get damage done. Praetorians with some good terrain and good manouvering might outvalue Hellblasters on a busy 500 pt 4/4 board, but on a 2k pt 6/4 the Praetorians can't keep up. They don't have the support abilities Hellblasters do and Reanimation Protocols is far less strong.

Praetorians need some kind of really strong mobility Stratagem that allows them to quickly get where they need to be if they were to be fair in both small and large games. A Deep-Strike esque redployment instead of the pitiful +1 to hit in one phase could make them much better and wouldn't break smaller games I don't think. Alternatively the LD buff suggested would be another great way to make them better in bigger games, although at 32 pts I don't think it'd unreasonable to make everyone within 6" immune to Morale.

Honestly DA hellblasters could just use WFTDA, and not overcharge at all, and get the exact same outcome, But DA are the best plasma users in the game. However the vast majority of plasma is ap -3, which will still work out as shown since str 8 still only wounds on 3s. Adding rerolls auras and such when doing a quick mathhammer is just inviting trouble, because as you start adding external factors, then you have to consider them all, maybe the target is in cover, maybe they have a -1 to hit, maybe they have an LT, maybe they have void shields up, etc. Looking only at the base hits/wounds/saves prevents cherry picking factors for the purpose of supporting your argument.

 Grimgold wrote:
Honestly DA hellblasters could just use WFTDA, and not overcharge at all, and get the exact same outcome, But DA are the best plasma users in the game. However the vast majority of plasma is ap -3, which will still work out as shown since str 8 still only wounds on 3s. Adding rerolls auras and such when doing a quick mathhammer is just inviting trouble, because as you start adding external factors, then you have to consider them all, maybe the target is in cover, maybe they have a -1 to hit, maybe they have an LT, maybe they have void shields up, etc. Looking only at the base hits/wounds/saves prevents cherry picking factors for the purpose of supporting your argument.

You can't ignore that one unit benefits from a dozen different buffs and works as part of a tier 2 list while the other only works on its own and not that well at that. It's perfectly fine to argue that a unit doesn't work as part of a list, a gunline with two units of Hellblasters works, an army with two units of Triarch Praetorians hopping about trying to be useful doesn't work. Why is that? It's becaue Triarch Praetorians don't help add up to a greater whole, they don't benefit from any buffs, don't get any great Stratagems and aren't cheap enough to simply be worth taking without being part of something greater. You could make a maze with 2" wide corridors bending every 5" and 5" tall. Triarch Praetorians would be great, but its contrived, it's not a realistic scenario. A Captain is realistic in a scenario where you are bringing Hellblasters, you cannot have HS choices without HQs. An army with a Cryptek or a Lord is realistic, but Triarch Praetorians don't benefit from any buffs, it's perfectly reasonable to say as part of a 2k list you have a Cryptek and a Lord while your opponent has a Captain and a Lieutenant.


I lost a 2k game against DE with 3 Ravagers and a bunch of Coven stuff with my Sautekh balance list. DDAs were really bad.


I won a 2k game against DE with a crap-ton of Coven stuff and a patrol with a Farseer and a Warlock. My opponent just slowly got ground away and never really got to me because his army was all melee. Despite getting most objectives in the early turns he failed to get his secondaries and I won.


I won a 1k Eternal War-style game against a CSM newb with an Alpha Legion list with my Novokh Immortal spam/double Tomb Stalker list. Tomb Stalkers weren't horrible, but Immortals did basically all the work. My opponent played really badly, he placed his Berzerkers in a Rhino in the back of his Deployment Zone and his Havocs in front, not really a lot to learn (for me).


I lost a 2k ITC game with my Anrakyr Szeras Balanced list against SW/AM. I played really badly because I didn't correctly judge whether my unit could see before I started my turn ended up wasting MWBD and not shooting my Immortals T1, forgot to use Szeras ability at the end of my first Movement phase, forgot to stay more than 1" away from a guy with the Armour of Russ before making my attacks and was just a tad unlucky as well. My 10 Triarch Praetorians managed to do 2 unsaved wounds to a unit of Thunderwolves and 3 unsaved wounds to a Psyker before getting chopped up. I'm not sure why I still can't remember to use Szeras after at least 10 games with this list. I was a gak sportsman this game, my opponent just wanted a casual game and I didn't let him go back just because I wouldn't let myself go back even though he would have let me, I'll endevour to be a better sportsman and player in the future.

They should make praetorians 2+/2+

They're supposed to be the best, the triarchs ultimate force with which they hold necron dynasties in line yet they sport the same ws/bs as a regular warrior. That would go some way to make them worth their cost, seeing as they can't receive various regular infantry buffs which is what makes other infantry strong

 vict0988 wrote:

You can't ignore that one unit benefits from a dozen different buffs and works as part of a tier 2 list while the other only works on its own and not that well at that. It's perfectly fine to argue that a unit doesn't work as part of a list, a gunline with two units of Hellblasters works, an army with two units of Triarch Praetorians hopping about trying to be useful doesn't work. Why is that? It's becaue Triarch Praetorians don't help add up to a greater whole, they don't benefit from any buffs, don't get any great Stratagems and aren't cheap enough to simply be worth taking without being part of something greater. You could make a maze with 2" wide corridors bending every 5" and 5" tall. Triarch Praetorians would be great, but its contrived, it's not a realistic scenario. A Captain is realistic in a scenario where you are bringing Hellblasters, you cannot have HS choices without HQs. An army with a Cryptek or a Lord is realistic, but Triarch Praetorians don't benefit from any buffs, it's perfectly reasonable to say as part of a 2k list you have a Cryptek and a Lord while your opponent has a Captain and a Lieutenant.

If praetorians are within rapid fire range of hellblasters, while out in the open, while the SM player has 300+ points of supporting characters, of course they are going to get plastered, but how is that useful. You refuse to count things that might help the praetorians out, like the abundance of LoS blocking terrain in ITC, that is very easily accessible to an infantry squad with the fly keyword and an 10" movement. Or that for praetorians to be in rapid fire range at all probably means they failed a charge, or that the praetorians didn't have a screen of scarabs to tie units they are about to charge. Your making a ton of assumptions, and cherry picking the ones that support your argument. The correct way to math hammer is to make as few assumptions as possible, it's called isolating the variables. Otherwise to do any mathhammer at all you need to take into account board placement, stratagems, both complete lists, scenery, ad nauseum.

The thing with Wraiths, everyone uses at least a squad including me and that's great because they look awesome on the table. But they are so expensive. 10 points over costed, in my opinion. Especially as Wraithflight inexplicably got nerfed.

They're still hard to kill but the buffs to their attacks was cancelled out by the huge point hike they took and they feel just as average as in the index. I don't expect them to go down in points in CA either so if Praetorians receive a sizable decrease, maybe, just maybe they'll be the better option.

Hello fellow Necron players, my tomb has awoken and I'm back to play some necrony goodness in 7th edition. (Haven't played this game in 2 years)

Just wanted to reintroduce myself and ask for some rules that I'm missing like the "fly nerf" everyone is talking about (I know there's probably better threads for that, but hey look at my username.)

Also, can't wait for the CA. I'm seeeriously hoping for some changes, at least point reduction, on the Monolith. I really think seeing lists with 2-3 monoliths is absolutely stunning and I'd love to play mine myself.

Necron warriors points serious point reduction would overall up our codex value overall as well, I think.

 necr0n wrote:
Hello fellow Necron players, my tomb has awoken and I'm back to play some necrony goodness in 7th edition. (Haven't played this game in 2 years)
Just wanted to reintroduce myself and ask for some rules that I'm missing like the "fly nerf" everyone is talking about (I know there's probably better threads for that, but hey look at my username.)
Also, can't wait for the CA. I'm seeeriously hoping for some changes, at least point reduction, on the Monolith. I really think seeing lists with 2-3 monoliths is absolutely stunning and I'd love to play mine myself.
Necron warriors points serious point reduction would overall up our codex value overall as well, I think.

Welcome back!

Long story short right now, the army is in a rough way competitively.
Currently, page 1 of this thread has a solid breakdown of our units and how they rank internally at least.
CA may very well shake some things out, we'll see, if land raiders are getting 40 points cheaper, I'm hoping we'll see similar outcomes for the monolith.

The fly nerf...specifically has to do with now having to count vertical distance when charging, So if you are charging from 9 inches up a building, and the target is 1 inch away from the bottom of the building, its a 10 inch charge, not a 1 inch charge. Makes deep strike assaults harder, but hardly effects us TBH, as most of our melee units lack a reliable means of delivery.



In other news, should we update the front page with a grade for the Seraptek Heavy Construct? I'd give it a B myself, I think its good. Balanced, expensive, but good.

 iGuy91 wrote:

 necr0n wrote:
Hello fellow Necron players, my tomb has awoken and I'm back to play some necrony goodness in 7th edition. (Haven't played this game in 2 years)
Just wanted to reintroduce myself and ask for some rules that I'm missing like the "fly nerf" everyone is talking about (I know there's probably better threads for that, but hey look at my username.)
Also, can't wait for the CA. I'm seeeriously hoping for some changes, at least point reduction, on the Monolith. I really think seeing lists with 2-3 monoliths is absolutely stunning and I'd love to play mine myself.
Necron warriors points serious point reduction would overall up our codex value overall as well, I think.

Welcome back!

Long story short right now, the army is in a rough way competitively.
Currently, page 1 of this thread has a solid breakdown of our units and how they rank internally at least.
CA may very well shake some things out, we'll see, if land raiders are getting 40 points cheaper, I'm hoping we'll see similar outcomes for the monolith.

The fly nerf...specifically has to do with now having to count vertical distance when charging, So if you are charging from 9 inches up a building, and the target is 1 inch away from the bottom of the building, its a 10 inch charge, not a 1 inch charge. Makes deep strike assaults harder, but hardly effects us TBH, as most of our melee units lack a reliable means of delivery.



In other news, should we update the front page with a grade for the Seraptek Heavy Construct? I'd give it a B myself, I think its good. Balanced, expensive, but good.

The Fly nerf also has to do with Charging over chaff units and using Pile In moves to move over chaff moves, that's the main reason it hurts Wraiths and Praetorians, another thing is you can't charge Wraiths through a Ruin now and you can't charge Praetorians or Wraiths over/through a piece of impassable terrain.

Unit Tiers:
Made based on my opinions from having played with all these units at least once. I'd stay far away from Shieldguard and RodPraets and I'm not going to proxy the FW units that aren't great or interesting.

I think OP was a little too nice, knowing what we know about how Necron tournament lists turned out I think it's fair to say that many units need to be taken down a notch, we don't really need an A+ score, Immortals aren't that great, they're okay, we can call them a B. You can also knock all of these down a notch if you're considering running them in a totally useless Dynasty like Novokh Monoliths. I know one guy did well at a tournament with Scytheguard but I have been unable to provide good results even while bringing them to casual games, I'm not seing it. Finally getting to play a Knight via the Construct has been very interesting, it's stupidly good against some lists and rarely trash. It's just hard to deal with double-tapping Stratagems and Doom/Haywire spam.

I don't know why I clicked the link this morning after I read that Necrons/Tau weren't to be featured in the Vigilus Defiant book. Perhaps hoping for a generic detachment rule.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/12/05/5th-dec-xenos-specialist-detachments-rules-previewgw-homepage-post-4/

What do we reckon we'll get then?

A Canoptek one again? Maybe something to buff our elites?

"Silver Tide" would be an obviously thematic one.

Something for Triarch units as well, perhaps?

momerathe wrote:
"Silver Tide" would be an obviously thematic one.

Something for Triarch units as well, perhaps?

I'd like to see a Phalanx formation that gives benefits to infantry marching up the table (so probably Warriors, Immortals, and Lychguard). It'd need to be really good to push that concept to viability, though.

We won't be getting anything for Vigilus, so it's pointless to wishlist.

We just need to hope that Chapter Approved helps the army out.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

momerathe wrote:
"Silver Tide" would be an obviously thematic one.

Something for Triarch units as well, perhaps?

I'd like to see a Phalanx formation that gives benefits to infantry marching up the table (so probably Warriors, Immortals, and Lychguard). It'd need to be really good to push that concept to viability, though.

4+ FNP that you only need to pass once to survive multi-damage wounds

 vict0988 wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

momerathe wrote:
"Silver Tide" would be an obviously thematic one.

Something for Triarch units as well, perhaps?

I'd like to see a Phalanx formation that gives benefits to infantry marching up the table (so probably Warriors, Immortals, and Lychguard). It'd need to be really good to push that concept to viability, though.

4+ FNP that you only need to pass once to survive multi-damage wounds

Come on thats tau drone tactics. (and now orks)

Do we really wanna lower ourselves to their level

Rerolling RP would be ok

Or, this formation being the thing that finally lets you roll for completely dead units?

moonsmite wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

momerathe wrote:
"Silver Tide" would be an obviously thematic one.

Something for Triarch units as well, perhaps?

I'd like to see a Phalanx formation that gives benefits to infantry marching up the table (so probably Warriors, Immortals, and Lychguard). It'd need to be really good to push that concept to viability, though.

4+ FNP that you only need to pass once to survive multi-damage wounds

Come on thats tau drone tactics. (and now orks)

Do we really wanna lower ourselves to their level

I don't think anyone gets a 4+ FNP, that'd be a huge pain to get through. Especially if it somehow ignored multi-damage.

Sorry its a FNP of 5+ on the drones. but they do turn a multi-damage to one mortal wound.

And it is a huge pain to get through

 vict0988 wrote:

I don't think anyone gets a 4+ FNP, that'd be a huge pain to get through. Especially if it somehow ignored multi-damage.

Not true. DG characters can get the revoltingly resilient warlord trait, which is +1 to DR, making it a 4+ FNP. Doesnt work against MW, though.

After seeing the new Sister preview im asking myself why stormbolters can get a byond broken strat but gauss weapons are kinda gak-tier.

Why are we discussing Formations? We clearly get NOTHING!

Is the situation so desperate that we arouse ourselves on rules that will never happen?

Biasn wrote:
After seeing the new Sister preview im asking myself why stormbolters can get a byond broken strat but gauss weapons are kinda gak-tier.

To be fair, Necrons were one of the earlier codices. The early codices are a lot tamer and blander than what we have now.
Hopefully GW will bring necrons up to par.

Just went up againgst a necron list yesterday I hadn't seen before.


CCB
Overlord/w blade

3x10 tesla immortals

2x overlord/w blade

3x10 tesla immortals

3x AB





The damage output is ridiculous but its very static. Used the dynasty that rerolls 1's when they dont move in shooting and gave MWBD to 5 squads of immortals per turn.


I won the match, but i didnt score that hot as it took me so long to get past the immortals i didnt have enough firepower left to take out the barges.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Just went up againgst a necron list yesterday I hadn't seen before.


CCB
Overlord/w blade

3x10 tesla immortals

2x overlord/w blade

3x10 tesla immortals

3x AB


The damage output is ridiculous but its very static. Used the dynasty that rerolls 1's when they dont move in shooting and gave MWBD to 5 squads of immortals per turn.


I won the match, but i didnt score that hot as it took me so long to get past the immortals i didnt have enough firepower left to take out the barges.

Sounds like it would be hilarious against the perfect match up, like 120 boys or 90 gaunts

 IHateNids wrote:
Rerolling RP would be ok

Or, this formation being the thing that finally lets you roll for completely dead units?

This would be very salt inducing for our opponents when a full squad of warriors stands up after getting wiped the previous turn.

I like it

 Tauris_Blazestar wrote:

 IHateNids wrote:
Rerolling RP would be ok

Or, this formation being the thing that finally lets you roll for completely dead units?

This would be very salt inducing for our opponents when a full squad of warriors stands up after getting wiped the previous turn.

I like it

Merry side effect of them experiencing the same as we do from pretty much unadulterated favouritism...

but maybe I'm biased :p

Here

Oooh finally.
Warriors down to 11 is nice, wraiths got a nice 7pt reduction, and anni barges seem right at 100.
Monoliths are 400 currently, right? So that's an 80pt reduction. Not bad.
The arks got some nice reductions too.
Overall, our vehicles are much cheaper now.

Oooh I just saw the weapons page.
Blasters and carbines are down to 7 points, which, oddly enough, is the points cost that I thought was appropiate. This means immortals are now cheaper by 2 points. Not bad.
So both of our troops got cheaper. I like this change.

Interesting, shieldguard and scytheguard are now the same points cost.
Warscythes are 9, shield + sword is also 9.

Heavy Gauss Cannon is now the same points cost as a Gauss cannon, which means that destroyers and heavy destroyers are the same. Curious choice, but I could see the logic.

I dont want to be a pessimist but i think that wont really cut it overall...

The cheaper unis are a good start, but there might be stats and rules changes too. We'll have to see the whole picture first.

Finally. Some pretty nice reductions overall, assumimg nothing has been nerfed. My 1750 list went down maybe 100 points. The only enormous disappointment is Flayed Ones weren't touched.

Yeah, I'm surprised they weren't touch too. Maybe they received a better save or something.

I don't know how many points my army dropped by. I have several lists, so I can't really use that as an indicator.

If I were to give a rough estimate, maybe at least 400? That's like 10% of my collection.

Praetorian's from 22 to 16 is great, and the stalker from 117 to 85 is a big boost. Both kinda needed a rule change, but it's a positive change all the same.

Stalker gets cheaper still: heat ray, 54 to 40. Heavy Gauss cannon 27 to 20. Shredder 41 to 30.

Monolith from 381 to 320 is nice.

Gauss blaster and Tesla carbine dropping by two points means warriors are still worthless, but our troop slots are less of a tax.

Dispersion sheilds have halved in price from 12! Warscythes have lost three pts too, so all in all our elites are much better...

Cheaper Lord's make have tax easier to swallow.

Obelisk is still pricey for what it does, but it's a good point drop. Vault got the expect huge hike.

Deathmarks only dropped 2pts, and nothing for flayed ones. I hope there are rules changes to support this...

You guys think there will be rule changes in CA?

There was last time, but I don't know. Apparently there won't be, as GW didn't mention it in their article, so we'll have to see.

I'm not too sure about rules changes, but given that Heavy Desroyers are the exact same cost as normal destroyers now, might it be worth sprinkling them into lists again?

1 unit of three, or run 3x 5+1, purely and simply because we can?

By changing the weapon costs, not only did Immortals go down by 2pts, but it makes Tomb Blades cheaper as well.

well that's all pretty good, one of my list is now cheaper by 153 points.

should I add more tomb blade, or is an annihilation barge or maybe tomb stalker worth it now?

 IHateNids wrote:
I'm not too sure about rules changes, but given that Heavy Desroyers are the exact same cost as normal destroyers now, might it be worth sprinkling them into lists again?

1 unit of three, or run 3x 5+1, purely and simply because we can?

They probably made that change for exactly that. As destroyers and heavies are now the same cost, there is really nothing to lose by mixing squads anymore. You lose a couple of shots, but you get a stronger one in return, that would benefit from extermination protocols. For free. It now comes down to preference; do you want many shots, or a few shots and one really strong one?
Should add a bit more flexibility in a list.
A pity though that its capped out at one heavy destroyer per squad. It would be nice if it were 2 heavies per 3.

Niiiice. I like what I'm seeing, since I tend to lean on my troops. Means I get..whaddya know...more troops. Wraiths got cheaper too. Probably saves me 100-200 points a list.

Doomsday Arks dropping to 160 is huge guys. Thats 30 points savings a model. Thats 3 scarab bases for objective holding and area denial, easy.

Almost everybody got some huge point drops. This means more lethality in 40k and if they didnt change how RP works I assume we are still very low tier

We only have points currently, so it's a little early to throw that around, although you're probably right I'm remaining optimistic since the points were way nicer than anyone thought they would be.

I think we'll be in a better place aftewards, even if for the sole reason e arent limited to one-of-three builds that everyone already knows what to expect

Because I love some mathhammer and the new point changes shifted our best AV around a bit. I calculated the average damage inflicted on a target as well as how efficient they are in parenthesis, points per wound. Basically, the lower the number in parenthesis, the better the unit is.

Against a T8/3+:

DDA: 5.44 dmg (29.38) (old 35.45)
Nihilakh DDA: 6.35 dmg (25.19) (old 30.38)

1 Destroyer: 1.30 dmg (38.57) (old 38.57)
1 Destroyer w/ EP: 2.47 dmg (20.25) (old 20.25)

1 H. Destroyer: 1.81 dmg (27.55) (old 31.41)
1 H. Destroyer w/ EP: 2.77 dmg (18.08) (old 20.61)


Our true AV units(DDA and H. Destroyers) actually perform quite well now. After factoring in durability and range, regular destroyers don't seem to be the end all, be all anymore.

Since you can mix H destroyers and destroyers now without worrying about points costs, you can apply EP to them all.
This can be quite nasty.

I just cant see why its enough to pull us out of gak-tier.

Forgeworld

I'm not too familiar with Forge World, are those decreases or increases?

VERY glad to see a 35p drop for the Tomb Stalker. It's in almost all of my lists

This makes the Pylon almost Auto include again!

A list I came up with would be the Pylon.

A MSU Immortal battalion with 2 lords and 2 DDAs

2x Destroyers and Cryptek

1x Scarabs and somehow Wraiths

Move the points were needed

Biasn wrote:
I just cant see why its enough to pull us out of gak-tier.

Yeah, I'm not sure yet either considering everyone got point decreases somewhere.

I'm pretty happy with how they handled our AV issue though. As volatile as DDAs are, I may end up bringing some now.

Also, in one of the leaks, it mentioned there were datasheets updates on pg. 140-143, so CA doesn't look entirely just points we still have hope...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:
This makes the Pylon almost Auto include again!

A list I came up with would be the Pylon.

A MSU Immortal battalion with 2 lords and 2 DDAs

2x Destroyers and Cryptek

1x Scarabs and somehow Wraiths

Move the points were needed

Yeah, Pylon history is weird. Went from 475 to 525 and now back to 475?

I'm still hesitant on bringing one with how prevalent 3/4++ invulns are (aka knights)

How much could they fit on 4 pages though?
I'm not sure we'll see that much of an overhaul.

Sentry Pylons are down 30 points!
YEEESSSSS!!!
My 9 Pylon list is even more viable!

Man...now it looks like ima need a pylon again (grumble) lol

I like alot of the reductions, but it still looks like we are dependent on destroyers for the sum total of our offense. Maybe we can start using lychguard and praetorians to supplement our offense.

Tesseract Ark got a huge drop which is nice.

I am reserving judgement until I see all the changes, but it looks like most lists can shave off around 200 points or so.

I don't know if that's going to be enough though.

Doomscythe dropped a massive 55 points from 205 to 150 points. Doomsday ark is down from 193 points to 160. If you bring 3 Doom scythes, plus mixed heavy plus normal destroyers, and 3 Doomsday arks. I bet it would give even an IK army some pause.

And with the points, drop, you can take such an army and still have points left to round up other areas.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Doomscythe dropped a massive 55 points from 205 to 150 points. Doomsday ark is down from 193 points to 160. If you bring 3 Doom scythes, plus mixed heavy plus normal destroyers, and 3 Doomsday arks. I bet it would give even an IK army some pause.

And with the points, drop, you can take such an army and still have points left to round up other areas.

Doomscyths main gun still hits on fours, and at a D3 shots that's kind of rough.

Trazyn might be the affordable Overlord choice if you need Nihilakh

 Grimgold wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Doomscythe dropped a massive 55 points from 205 to 150 points. Doomsday ark is down from 193 points to 160. If you bring 3 Doom scythes, plus mixed heavy plus normal destroyers, and 3 Doomsday arks. I bet it would give even an IK army some pause.

And with the points, drop, you can take such an army and still have points left to round up other areas.

Doomscyths main gun still hits on fours, and at a D3 shots that's kind of rough.

It would be worth it if the annihilator would actually get buffed to 2d or sth. Would also make the anni barge less sucky cause for 120pts its still... meh

I don’t know like, 8 self-stacking shots at s7 is decent

Sure it’s not going to delete a Knight solo, but it’s a pretty good gun

Chapter approved has triggered the awakening of Necrons on the tomb world of Alameda.

 Grimgold wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Doomscythe dropped a massive 55 points from 205 to 150 points. Doomsday ark is down from 193 points to 160. If you bring 3 Doom scythes, plus mixed heavy plus normal destroyers, and 3 Doomsday arks. I bet it would give even an IK army some pause.

And with the points, drop, you can take such an army and still have points left to round up other areas.

Doomscyths main gun still hits on fours, and at a D3 shots that's kind of rough.

But a Doomscrythe isn't just the death ray. It also has two tesla destructors. That's a d3 str 10 shots plus 8 tesla str 7 shots for just 150 points ... on a flyer to boot. If that BS 4+ is such a big deal, then take Sautekh dynasty and boom, you get your 3+ BS. Its worth it when you are running 3 doom scythes and 3 doomsday arks

High Strength Low Ap shooting is nearly useless. Which high toughness model has a bad armor save?

Biasn wrote:
High Strength Low Ap shooting is nearly useless. Which high toughness model has a bad armor save?

Great Unclean Ones.

Eldenfirefly wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Doomscythe dropped a massive 55 points from 205 to 150 points. Doomsday ark is down from 193 points to 160. If you bring 3 Doom scythes, plus mixed heavy plus normal destroyers, and 3 Doomsday arks. I bet it would give even an IK army some pause.

And with the points, drop, you can take such an army and still have points left to round up other areas.

Doomscyths main gun still hits on fours, and at a D3 shots that's kind of rough.

But a Doomscrythe isn't just the death ray. It also has two tesla destructors. That's a d3 str 10 shots plus 8 tesla str 7 shots for just 150 points ... on a flyer to boot. If that BS 4+ is such a big deal, then take Sautekh dynasty and boom, you get your 3+ BS. Its worth it when you are running 3 doom scythes and 3 doomsday arks

Also don't forget that stratagem, the amalgam, against tightly packed enemies it can be golden (MSU guardsmen blobs, or 2-3 LRBT for example)

Yea, tesla is decent against high invuln units. Though the mass S5 Tesla Carbine's found in Immortals or Tomb Blades often deals with such threats.
So yea, still no spot for the Barge as far as I can think of....

 Grimgold wrote:

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Doomscythe dropped a massive 55 points from 205 to 150 points. Doomsday ark is down from 193 points to 160. If you bring 3 Doom scythes, plus mixed heavy plus normal destroyers, and 3 Doomsday arks. I bet it would give even an IK army some pause.

And with the points, drop, you can take such an army and still have points left to round up other areas.

Doomscyths main gun still hits on fours, and at a D3 shots that's kind of rough.

Not if you take Sautekh.

torblind wrote:
Trazyn might be the affordable Overlord choice if you need Nihilakh

Honestly, I don't see that doing much because of how lame the Nihilakh trait is. You're gonna want to camp, and that long range stuff we have mostly went benefit from an Overlord.

With that said, 3 Doom Arks with a Spyder and Repairtek doesn't sound so bad now.

I honestly feel like our flyer slots would be better spent on night scythes. With lychguard w/ scythes at 28 points a pop, and a reasonable delivery method, they could ruin a knights day on a charge, just add disruption fields for 1 cp to bring them to str 8.

2/3 * 1/2 * 2 * 20 = 13 damage on average.

A knights CC won't be enough to wipe out the unit, especially if they get bracketed. Killing the nightscythe won't stop them thanks to emergency invasion beam, and even running from the night scythe is dubious, since the lychguard will get a 3" disembark, a 5" move and a charge.

As for the strength of tesla destructors against t8 3+ units,

(1/2 + (1/6 *3)) * 1/3 * 1/3 * 8 = .88 damage

Hot garbage, which means that the doom scythe can only depend on its main gun, which is still dubious at heavy D3. As for sahhtek, the problem with them is that is there is almost always a better dynasty for whatever your doing, and the better dynasty for Tesla destructors on flyers is mephrit, the -1 ap with talent for annihilation:

1/2 + (1/6 * 3) + (1/6 * (1/2 + (1/6 * 3)) * 1/3 * 1/2 * 8 = 1.5 damage

Which is almost twice the damage and still hot garbage. TDs are so ridiculously useless, that having one is a black mark against any vehicle. For instance they had a huge point drop on the annihilation barges, and they are still awful. The best part about a AB is that it can take a gauss cannon, so it's a double cost destroyer.

I've said it before and will say it again, until they fix the Tesla destructor we have a huge hole in our army that can't be filled by points reductions. People are hung up on what it did in prior editions, and think that -1 ap and 2 damage is somehow going to over power it. Just make it cost points, if it's appropriately cost it will bring four of our durable weapon platforms off of the bench.

So, these are the significant point drops rvd1ofakind promised I was right not to believe him Some nice point reductions, could be better, though.

The destructor should be 2 damage (it is an autocannon equivalent), but -1 ap doesn't feel right on tesla. I don't think that weapon type has ever had an AP value, even in 5th.

Points changes, from our battlescibe catalog author, as he updated the file.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The destructor should be 2 damage (it is an autocannon equivalent), but -1 ap doesn't feel right on tesla. I don't think that weapon type has ever had an AP value, even in 5th.

Well then at least make it S8, S7 is another hole you don't want to be in if other weapon stats already don't favor you. (Improves against T4 and T8 both)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The destructor should be 2 damage (it is an autocannon equivalent), but -1 ap doesn't feel right on tesla. I don't think that weapon type has ever had an AP value, even in 5th.

For the record, the Tesla C'Tan power in 7th had AP.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The destructor should be 2 damage (it is an autocannon equivalent), but -1 ap doesn't feel right on tesla. I don't think that weapon type has ever had an AP value, even in 5th.

Vehicles didn't have armour saves in 5th ed, and one shot from a sufficient str weapon was often enough to blow them up. Once again though it's not about what the weapon was, it's about what we need it to be. Ap -1 is the bare minimum we need on an anti-vehicle weapon, and would make it the lowest AP weapon (tied with the autocannon) that is in general use for hunting vehicles. It would still be a tesla weapon, it would still get boned by a -1 to hit, and it would still rely on volume of shots to get damage through. If anything it brings it much closer into line with how they were used in 5th ed,

 axisofentropy wrote:
Points changes, from our battlescibe catalog author, as he updated the file.

Strange, my battlescribe hasn't been updated with these changes yet.

 p5freak wrote:
So, these are the significant point drops rvd1ofakind promised I was right not to believe him Some nice point reductions, could be better, though.

Some of those are pretty significant and he did correctly get prices for some stuff correct (I do recall him giving the Loyalist Scum Terminator price a while back)

Doctoralex wrote:

 axisofentropy wrote:
Points changes, from our battlescibe catalog author, as he updated the file.

Strange, my battlescribe hasn't been updated with these changes yet.

lol it's not published yet chill. Probably some time next week.

Anyone dissatisfied with these changes should quit the faction now. It will be a year before you see anything change, and this was the best expectable outcome.

So parts of the datasheets were leaked. One page is dedicated to horrors, another is dedicated to intercessors and fiends. I don't see how we could fit in the other 2 pages.

 MoonlightSonata wrote:
Here

No way. Who sacrificed their firstborn to the chaos gods? Screw the Vault, this is amazing. So much more than I had hoped for, ya'll noobs if you can't work with this. The changes seem to have been decided upon by a toddler at random, but I think we got a pretty good result from this if you're ignoring Vault lists. Why might you ignore Vault lists? Because they're dead, forget about them move on to slightly less green pastures. I got the minimum change on the Monolith I asked for so that's very nice, time to test it out some more, my gut instinct is that it's still trash.

Annihilation Barge -22-23%: Still worse than Tomb Blades in most circumstances, better against Lasguns, but where you find Lasguns you find other guns as well.

Canoptek Tomb Sentinel -19%: Very fair. If you need more AV than 3 DDAs I might consider one.

Canoptek Tomb Stalker -21%: Still quite bad. Slightly better than Flayed Ones.

Canoptek Wraiths -12%: Amazing again, I felt like they were merely good with the Codex while they were amazing in the index. Sadly all the options except for the naked ones are still much worse.

Catacomb Command Barge -7-10%: Pretty good, I still prefer Overlords for my MWBD needs.

Deathmarks -11%: Still not good enough.

Doom Scythe -27%: It got so much better, still not viable.

Doomsday Ark -17%: It was already good lol. What even is this, 3 in every list.

Gauss Pylon -14%: it's very good, especially against Knights, not mandatory like it was in the index though.

Ghost Ark -9%: still a borderline must-have in lists featuring 20+ Warriors. Taking two or three Ghost Arks isn't a bad idea in lists with 40+ Warriors.

Immortals -12%: I think 30 Tesla Immortals are going to become a mainstay.

Lord -7-11%: must-have in lists with 400+ pts of troops. About as good as Crypteks now, I wouldn't say one or the other is stronger except on a case by case basis.

Lychguard -7-18%: the shields are no longer a complete joke. I still prefer the warscythes if I'm taking a single unit and lopping it at an enemy with some kind of teleport ability. But for really big groups or if you're using them to block sniper shots the shields are about as good. Still an overall bad choice that has to be made to work with support units.

Monolith -16%: Bad, but not terrible. The Monolith was the worst unit in the Codex and when good choices get bigger buffs than the Monolith, it's tough.

Necron Warriors -11%: better compared to competitive units which got nerfed or stayed the same, but they remain useless against Knights which is very, very bad with the lack of nerfs to Knights. You could possibly build a strong list around them if you were expecting few Knights or if you had a list that is otherwise extremely well-equipped to deal with Knights, triple Pylon anyone?

Night Scythe -19%: Pretty good against Orks, still meh overall.

Night Shroud -16%: Still terrible.

Sentry Pylon -16-22%: Good, but I don't think they are tournament viable, best with Sautekh using the deep striking heat cannon or Nihilakh with the Gauss Exterminator deploying on the field.

Obelisk -11%: Still bad, less of a cost if you want to be ready to punch a DE player in the gak.

Overlord -0-2%: still a solid choice, with Immortals being better he's gotten better since that's what he's best at supporting. I don't think I can justify taking a hyperphase sword any longer now that the warscythe is just 6 pts away, the voidscythe upgrade is still solid tech against Knights and the voidblade remains the best choice against groups of enemies, but the warscythe is probably going to be my go-to rather than the hyperphase sword.

Tesseract Ark -23-25%: much better but I still don't think it's viable.

Tesseract Vault +14%: it's fair, which is no fair when Knights stay unfair. It's still a very versatile unit and fairly resistant to much shooting.

Tomb Blades -0-12%: I feel sorry for you if you built yours with particle beamers, they're now an invalid choice. Tomb Blades are incredibly strong now, if it weren't for Lootas I'd say they'd be mainstay in every list, but Lootas are so damn good against them, Disintegrator Cannons and Avenger Gatling Cannons and Knight stomps will also do a number on them. The popular damage types that are currently in the game are holding them back, but they'll be brutal in many match-ups. If the meta shifts they'll be OP.

Transcendent C'tan -11%: just short of good enough.

Triarch Praetorians -19%: decent, but not viable.

Triarch Stalker -33-34%: that's a hilariously big drop for a unit that was just shy of being good enough. I think one is mandatory if you're bringing 3 DDAs... So one is mandatory. I'd always go Twin-HGC on the first one, but I might switch it up for any additional ones if I were to take more than one, I think all options have their place, but the first one just needs that HGC for the range so that you can pick between more targets. The only lists where it remains not good enough is Destroyer heavy lists and Nihilakh dynasty lists, but otherwise a very solid pick.

C'tan Shard of the Nightbringer -14%: really, really good, especially with the buff to Wraiths.

Illuminor Szeras -16%: I still wouldn't take him in an army with a single dynasty, but he was already often the best choice in multi-dynasty armies, now even more so.

Imotekh the Stormlord -20%: not an auto-include, but very good.

Nemesor Zahndrekh -17%: still only good with Vargard Obyron. But is now actually good with Obyron. The Zahndrekh Deceiver bomb still isn't OP, but not a waste of points neccessarily.

Toholk the Blinded -24%: I think he's as good a choice as a Cryptek in the right list now.

Trazyn the Infinite -10%: his WL trait still sucks and his Dynasty is pretty bad in the first place, no reason not just to take a regular Overlord.

Vargard Obyron -11%: I think Vargard Obyron and Zahndrekh will find more of a home in some kind of shooty infantry list rather than trying to fling the still overpriced Lychguard at the enemy.

My favourite army, Anrakyr Szeras Balance got 216 pts cheaper, now what to remove to put in 3 DDAs???

Overall I'd say GW did a piss poor job with balancing Necrons between all the wrong moves they made and all the right moves they failed to make, it's a total farce. But I can definitely work with it. I think Frontline Gaming should just come out and fix this gak in 6 months after they finish collecting data from their tournaments and then stop relying on GW to balance things, release an update every 3 months with data that is one month old instead of every 12 months with data that is 6 months old. Much of this seems to be a FW cash-grab, but maybe that's a bit too negative, I'm sure people who've spent a lot of money on FW units feel like they deserve to have their units be at least as good as the codex ones.

I think I'm going to be replacing the Vault in several of my lists with a Gauss Pylon, I'm very happy we still have an effective <500 pt LoW for triple LoW lists, I may also experiment more with the Obelisk since it's going to be less of a target than my Seraptek Heavy Constructs in my double Construct list(s).

 Grimgold wrote:
I honestly feel like our flyer slots would be better spent on night scythes. With lychguard w/ scythes at 28 points a pop, and a reasonable delivery method, they could ruin a knights day on a charge, just add disruption fields for 1 cp to bring them to str 8.

If you go first, you still couldn't emergency beam them turn 1 if he downs all your flyers, right? So you what.. need to bring three, or go second?

torblind wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:
I honestly feel like our flyer slots would be better spent on night scythes. With lychguard w/ scythes at 28 points a pop, and a reasonable delivery method, they could ruin a knights day on a charge, just add disruption fields for 1 cp to bring them to str 8.

If you go first, you still couldn't emergency beam them turn 1 if he downs all your flyers, right? So you what.. need to bring three, or go second?

Sadly, going second does not change anything since the Big FAQ 2, you can't arrive round one period :
"Furthermore, in matched play games, units that are not placed on the battlefield during deployment in order to arrive on the battle mid-game as reinforcements cannot arrive on the battlefield during the first battle round."

So no Emergency Beam turn 1 whether you start or not.

Nightscythe are still a gamble ...

You could beam them in, it counts as disembarking from a transport, per the big fall FAQ, so it could even be done if you get first turn and the flyer dies in your opponents deployment zone.The trick though is the stratagem only works if it's your last night scythe or monolith, so if you brought two of them and two units in TWD, and lost both in the same turn, you'd have to use the enhanced invasion beam stratagem in addition to the emergency invasion beam.

Necron FAQ wrote:Change the penultimate sentence of this ability to read:
‘Set up the unit so that it is wholly within 3" of this
model and more than 1" from any enemy models;
the unit that has just been set up counts as having
disembarked from a transport for all rules purposes.’

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shaelinith wrote:


Sadly, going second does not change anything since the Big FAQ 2, you can't arrive round one period :
"Furthermore, in matched play games, units that are not placed on the battlefield during deployment in order to arrive on the battle mid-game as reinforcements cannot arrive on the battlefield during the first battle round."

So no Emergency Beam turn 1 whether you start or not.

Nightscythe are still a gamble ...

You can exit a transport on turn 1, no matter where it is. I can see the confusion though, they are not arriving as reinforcements, they are disembarking from a transport, which means it's the same thing as if you flew up a stormraven into your opponents territory turn one and it got blown up. Under the old rules were they were deep striking that would be correct, but they went out of their way to not completely dick us.

RAW, it doesn't count as disembarking from a transport until AFTER they've been set up. I'll requote with emphasis: "the unit that HAS JUST BEEN SET UP counts as having disembarked".

As such, I would argue that they still count as "arriving on the battle mid-game as reinforcements" until such a time as the unit has been set up. And considering the rule prevents them from being set up in the first place... SOL.

Edit: I would only attempt to argue this though if it were a very competitive game, and even then would happily defer to a TO's rule decision otherwise, because it's more fun to allow it in casual games anyhow.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll wrote:
RAW, it doesn't count as disembarking from a transport until AFTER they've been set up. I'll requote with emphasis: "the unit that HAS JUST BEEN SET UP counts as having disembarked".

As such, I would argue that they still count as "arriving on the battle mid-game as reinforcements" until such a time as the unit has been set up. And considering the rule prevents them from being set up in the first place... SOL.

Edit: I would only attempt to argue this though if it were a very competitive game, and even then would happily defer to a TO's rule decision otherwise, because it's more fun to allow it in casual games anyhow.

I'd say having disembarked for all rule purposes would cover anyone pedantic enough to try an order of operations switcharoo, because the intent of the rule is so clear. Also In all cases you don't count as having disembarked until after you have setup, because until you are setup you are not disembarked.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll wrote:
RAW, it doesn't count as disembarking from a transport until AFTER they've been set up. I'll requote with emphasis: "the unit that HAS JUST BEEN SET UP counts as having disembarked".

As such, I would argue that they still count as "arriving on the battle mid-game as reinforcements" until such a time as the unit has been set up. And considering the rule prevents them from being set up in the first place... SOL.

Edit: I would only attempt to argue this though if it were a very competitive game, and even then would happily defer to a TO's rule decision otherwise, because it's more fun to allow it in casual games anyhow.

Yeah it's pretty obvious what the intent was, otherwise there was zero change in the rules after the new wording. Try and call someone on it if you like, but you're as likely to get smacked down for rules sharking as anything else.

On topic again, I'm wondering if the drops for Nightsycthes and Lychguard make them somewhat usable (in semi-competitive settings, obviously we're still boned at the top tables). The monolith got a drop, but honestly it wasn't enough imo. It needed to drop a cool 100 to be considered sadly. At the very least bringing a unit of Lychguard to veil up in someone's face is a bit more tempting.

The Sentry Pylon drop saves me 270 and makes taking 9 a thing!

Run Nihilakh, sit and shoot, Scarabs as screen, getting rebuilt by Spyders, each set of 3 Pylons gets 2 Spyders for repair, with the cloakteks doing emergency healing, or just healing themselves.

2x Cloaktek
3x (3 Sentry Pylons with Heat Cannon)
3x (2 Spyders with Fabricator Claws)
2x 4 Scarabs
Total: 1999

IanVanCheese wrote:

Yeah it's pretty obvious what the intent was, otherwise there was zero change in the rules after the new wording. Try and call someone on it if you like, but you're as likely to get smacked down for rules sharking as anything else.

On topic again, I'm wondering if the drops for Nightsycthes and Lychguard make them somewhat usable (in semi-competitive settings, obviously we're still boned at the top tables). The monolith got a drop, but honestly it wasn't enough imo. It needed to drop a cool 100 to be considered sadly. At the very least bringing a unit of Lychguard to veil up in someone's face is a bit more tempting.

Why not two units of lychguard, a sword and board to be used with veil, and scythe guard in a night scythe to take out heavy vehicles. An interesting idea is bring a cryptek with the scythe guard, since you can drop them both off at the same time, and the cryptek will give them better reanimate and a 5++ vs shooting. Or you could bring a lord for that sweet reroll ones to wound, and another scythe with a few attacks. To be fair flyer deployed fatties isn't great for SM, but since we are looking for ways to be less dependent on destroyers it's not a terrible way to go for us since the night scythe is a fair bit cheaper than the space marine options. For lulz you could always do a 20 man blob flayed ones, with immotek to give them rerolls to hit, though I think that would be more meme than beef.

It might be that shooty crons go the way of the old ones, and instead the new necron meta could revolve around getting our CC units into the fight untouched via novel ways like viel and night scythe, backed up by fast units like wraiths and C'Tan. I'd start list crafting but I'm lazy, and want to wait for battlescribe to be updated. Not that I'm trying to rush anyone, since the volunteers who update battlescribe put in a lot of work for our enjoyment, and the only time they hear from us is when we are whining about how long it takes or complaining when they screw up. So do 40k a favor and thank your battle scribes,

Okay, so if Warscythe Lychguard are supposed to be to take against Knights, how are people planning on getting them into combat now?
Veil? (9" charge?)
Night Scythe? (turn 3 charge?)
Monolith? (turn ? charge?)
... walking? (turn 3 charge? if they actually even manage to reach it?)

 skoffs wrote:
Okay, so if Warscythe Lychguard are supposed to be to take against Knights, how are people planning on getting them into combat now?
Veil? (9" charge?)
Night Scythe? (turn 3 charge?)
Monolith? (turn ? charge?)
... walking? (turn 3 charge? if they actually even manage to reach it?)

Why would night scythe be turn 3? zoom it across the board turn 1, turn 2, 3" disembark + 5" move + charge. Veil is turn 2 for a risky charge (or turn one for a really risky charge), but by that point your faster foot units like wraiths and C'Tan have caught up. Another idea is to bring the nemesor in the night scythe along with the lychguard, and obyron in your deployment zone with another unit of lychguard, and then you'll have a gak load of charging lychguard on turn two, backed up by whatever wraiths, scarabs or C'Tan make it across the board. I'm dubious it will be the end all be all, but if the points are right and we can bring enough elite melee to give us a chance against gunline. Maybe you go all in on it, and have the deceiver GI some additional units to mid field, as well as some translocation crypt for units like destroyers and we could be a decent beta strike. Up to this point the challenge with deceiver bomb (and strategies like it) has been the lack of efficiency and how bad tomb world deploy sucked, but TWD was mostly fixed in the big fall FAQ, and with the points drops on all of the units involved, it might be worth taking another look at. Once again though I haven't built any specific lists, getting ready for a tournament tomorrow, so don't have the time to do it by hand.

Amazing we got a price reduction.. oh no wait.. here are the eldar reductions..




Now as I'm aware eldar didn't need changing nor did any of the other armies but grey knights yet they all seem to be down on points? So sorry to burst all of our bubbles but like my source said... you will not like what they have done.

Character across the board got cost reductions, and aside from that the only wow that's a big drop is for the wraith knight which was kinda being punished for how good it was in the prior edition. The other changes were in line with what all armies received, so I'm not overly impressed. Do you think that the changes made any of the units in green auto-include or spammable? When I look at the green I mostly see second string units adjusted down in an attempt to make them more attractive.

Sn33R wrote:
]


Now as I'm aware eldar didn't need changing nor did any of the other armies but grey knights yet they all seem to be down on points? So sorry to burst all of our bubbles but like my source said... you will not like what they have done.

Actually their internal balance wasn't that hot. Some good units yes but plenty units nobody bothers to take either.

Don't be too worried about the Eldar changes, every unit that got buffed is a unit people didn't use and some of the best Eldar units got nerfed (thinking Shining Spears and Wave Serpents here).

Yeah, and one of our problems was anti armor. With the drop in points for a lot of our anti armor units. Our ability to handle armor just got a heck of a lot easier now. Handling infantry or elite infantry was never a problem for Necrons.

And yes, they can still delete a whole unit to get around RP. But if you are facing 3 doom scythes, 3 doomsday arks, destroyers, then how much shooting do you really have to devote to wiping out an entire infantry unit?

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Don't be too worried about the Eldar changes, every unit that got buffed is a unit people didn't use and some of the best Eldar units got nerfed (thinking Shining Spears and Wave Serpents here).

Though other price drops for weapons mean the eldar armies don't get much of price hike even if used units like shining spears. However when other armies(minus orks) got point drops and the #1 eldar list stayed almost same relatively that was nerf.

But no point complaining wraith knight got price drop for example as it's stil' junk. Don't remember seeing much striking scorpions around either and last time i saw wraithlord might have been in 4th ed

Wonder how my necron collection changed with this one. Should get around those one day. Orks are fine for now so just need to get titans settled and could finally get around to necrons

As I said...Those point drops just mean more spam for Necrons...In addition to your 2x 6Destroyers (now with a HDestroyer if you so wish) you can take 2-3DDAs AND a battalion.

The positive thing I see is the additional Battalion one can take now!

If Knights remain in the meta I guess a Pylon will be a auto include!
The point drop on warriors us a joke especially since Immortals got a 2points drop making them sooooo much better than before.

Looks like you didnt notice that 8th is all about spam and hordes. 100+ pink horrors, 100+ cultists, 100+ gaunts... Elite armys are in a bad spot.

 p5freak wrote:
Looks like you didnt notice that 8th is all about spam and hordes. 100+ pink horrors, 100+ cultists, 100+ gaunts... Elite armys are in a bad spot.

This or that plus a Knight.

I proposed this list as Knights were the thing I struggled the most with. Sadly I dont think Necrons can take a good All Comers list?

Immortals got a nice buff but still die in an instant.

8th edition is just not meant for elite armies

 p5freak wrote:
Looks like you didnt notice that 8th is all about spam and hordes. 100+ pink horrors, 100+ cultists, 100+ gaunts... Elite armys are in a bad spot.

Especially with battalions granting 5 CP. Every time I build a soup list with a patrol or spearhead or something I always stop and think to myself, "you know what, if I just rearranged some stuff here and there I could fit another battalion into this..."

Factions with access to efficient troops are king. Welcome to 8th Edition Battalionhammer.

So after seeing the review video of CA that seems to be it. No datasheets , no rule changes just points for necrons. Annihilator and lots of vehicles will be gak for another year it seems.

Well, it seems my information from July has remain accurate. It's a shame too, since there won't be any opportunities for changes to come for a long time either.

sieGermans wrote:
Anyone dissatisfied with these changes should quit the faction now.

I guess I'll be quitting then.

Biasn wrote:
So after seeing the review video of CA that seems to be it. No datasheets , no rule changes just points for necrons. Annihilator and lots of vehicles will be gak for another year it seems.

I'm still not sure those reviews show everything. In the rumors thread there was a photo of a datasheets page on intercessors, fiends and horrors, and I don't recall the reviews showing those. It could be that GW told them not to reveal everything.

 vipoid wrote:

sieGermans wrote:
Anyone dissatisfied with these changes should quit the faction now.

I guess I'll be quitting then.

Might as well if you don't think these point decreases helped us.

The points changes aren't the only changes here. There are so many changes to how the game plays that invalidate the current meta.

I think we're in a much better place than we used to be.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Biasn wrote:
So after seeing the review video of CA that seems to be it. No datasheets , no rule changes just points for necrons. Annihilator and lots of vehicles will be gak for another year it seems.

I'm still not sure those reviews show everything. In the rumors thread there was a photo of a datasheets page on intercessors, fiends and horrors, and I don't recall the reviews showing those. It could be that GW told them not to reveal everything.

But the video did show the datasheets? Its horrors , rines , fleshhounds and bloodcrushers. Not more not less.

Biasn wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Biasn wrote:
So after seeing the review video of CA that seems to be it. No datasheets , no rule changes just points for necrons. Annihilator and lots of vehicles will be gak for another year it seems.

I'm still not sure those reviews show everything. In the rumors thread there was a photo of a datasheets page on intercessors, fiends and horrors, and I don't recall the reviews showing those. It could be that GW told them not to reveal everything.

But the video did show the datasheets? Its horrors , rines , fleshhounds and bloodcrushers. Not more not less.

Did it? Must have missed it, or saw a different one. Well that's unfortunate then.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Biasn wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Biasn wrote:
So after seeing the review video of CA that seems to be it. No datasheets , no rule changes just points for necrons. Annihilator and lots of vehicles will be gak for another year it seems.

I'm still not sure those reviews show everything. In the rumors thread there was a photo of a datasheets page on intercessors, fiends and horrors, and I don't recall the reviews showing those. It could be that GW told them not to reveal everything.

But the video did show the datasheets? Its horrors , rines , fleshhounds and bloodcrushers. Not more not less.

Did it? Must have missed it, or saw a different one. Well that's unfortunate then.

WinterSEO or sth like that did the review. Yeah its unfortunate and since overall vehicles got alot of point drops across factions we might even see more of them...

 Odrankt wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

sieGermans wrote:
Anyone dissatisfied with these changes should quit the faction now.

I guess I'll be quitting then.

Might as well if you don't think these point decreases helped us.

I'm sure they'll help to some degree, but there are too many core issues that remain entirely ignored.

 vipoid wrote:

 Odrankt wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

sieGermans wrote:
Anyone dissatisfied with these changes should quit the faction now.

I guess I'll be quitting then.

Might as well if you don't think these point decreases helped us.

I'm sure they'll help to some degree, but there are too many core issues that remain entirely ignored.

Yeah, I might give them a try or two with the new points, but I don't have high hopes.
I have a feeling I'll be shelving them in favor of Sisters once they release.

 vipoid wrote:

 Odrankt wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

sieGermans wrote:
Anyone dissatisfied with these changes should quit the faction now.

I guess I'll be quitting then.

Might as well if you don't think these point decreases helped us.

I'm sure they'll help to some degree, but there are too many core issues that remain entirely ignored.

I'm willing to give them a shot. I feel like The HGC Stalker and DD arks going down is pretty big, and may be enough to swing us up quite a bit. Throw in the reduction to our troops and I feel like we are in a decent spot. It doesn't addresses some of our core issues with stratagems or CP, but I think it's enough to pull us out of the dumpster tier at least.

I know that many other armies got points reductions as well, so we will have to see how things play out on the Tabletop.

I think you're going to see a lot of lists with triple DDA and at least one Stalker...maybe even more stalkers. Flooding the field with Quantum Shielding protected anti-armour units will upset a lot of armies out there.

I don't think we're top of the pile, but this update throws us into the middle of the pack now at least.

With the new missions seemingly putting a greater onus on board control, I'm wondering what the top Dynasties are going to be? I think Sautekh and Nephrekh (which was already great) have gained a big boost here. Triple DDA zooming around the board making the most of their gauss flayer arrays could be a valid tactic.

 Sasori wrote:
I'm willing to give them a shot. I feel like The HGC Stalker and DD arks going down is pretty big, and may be enough to swing us up quite a bit.

Maybe, but as someone who can't stand the Doomsday Ark, you'll forgive me if it getting a points reduction doesn't exactly fill me with enthusiasm.


In fact, that's kind of the issue for me. I don't mind playing relatively weak armies, but the problem with Necrons is that I just find them boring at the moment. There's something about their current design that just saps away all my enthusiasm, and I'm afraid no amount of point reductions is likely to change that.

 slave.entity wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Looks like you didnt notice that 8th is all about spam and hordes. 100+ pink horrors, 100+ cultists, 100+ gaunts... Elite armys are in a bad spot.

Especially with battalions granting 5 CP. Every time I build a soup list with a patrol or spearhead or something I always stop and think to myself, "you know what, if I just rearranged some stuff here and there I could fit another battalion into this..."

Factions with access to efficient troops are king. Welcome to 8th Edition Battalionhammer.

What? But the change was intended to give more CP to elite armies? We are benefitting from this, I swear. Double Battalion Crons got a lot better though, Imotekh, Zahndrekh, Obyron, Cryptek and 6 units of 10 Tesla Immortals got 200 pts cheaper. A more barebones version with 3x10 Immortals and 3x5 Immortals, double Overlord, Lord and Cryptek got 100 pts cheaper. The 2pt drop on Immortals is going to be felt in almost every list and the few lists that don't run Immortals got a similar drop on DDAs and Tomb Blades.

I lost an Eternal War game trying out a triple Vault list with a squad of 6 Wraiths against Drukhari for what is probably the first and last time. They just don't have the firepower to deal with mechanised lists, Nihilakh Wraiths were terrible, but part of that was playing a game with no objectives so no 2+ invul. I did randomly generate my powers so I guess doing gak in the Movement phase is on me, but when you lose a 700 pts a turn it's hard to keep up.


I won a game against Tau using the new pts costs using 3 Unique HQs in a double Battalion with 3 DDAs and a Triarch Stalker, please let me know if I've got any of the pt values wrong since the list is hand-made, the list would have been 350 more pts before CA2018 and I think it's going to be the new hotness. I seized the initiative and destroyed half of my opponent's army. In the end I lost a single unit of Immortals and wiped out my opponent turn 3. 4 full squads of MWBD Immortals is a ton of shooting, a ton of shooting that usually meant you had little to no AV, but with the pts changes I had a very decent amount of AV in addition to an absurd amount of anti infantry. It'll struggle against Kabal Drukhari and Alaitoc (if it's true that Alaitoc isn't getting changed) but should be strong against most other lists including Knights.

As much as I like DDAs getting cheaper (even if their issue was unreliable damage; it's not like ~190 was a terrible price to begin with) I don't like the prospect of buying, building, and housing 3 of the bastards. I was just about coming to terms with 2. Maybe I can sub one of them for 3 Heavy Destroyers or something just so I don't have to buy a third carry case.

That said, if my Stalker is coming out of storage, it might come to a third case anyway...

 vipoid wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
I'm willing to give them a shot. I feel like The HGC Stalker and DD arks going down is pretty big, and may be enough to swing us up quite a bit.

Maybe, but as someone who can't stand the Doomsday Ark, you'll forgive me if it getting a points reduction doesn't exactly fill me with enthusiasm.


In fact, that's kind of the issue for me. I don't mind playing relatively weak armies, but the problem with Necrons is that I just find them boring at the moment. There's something about their current design that just saps away all my enthusiasm, and I'm afraid no amount of point reductions is likely to change that.

That's easy. They are a point and click army. They have no depth, no range of interests. They are very flat.

 vipoid wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
I'm willing to give them a shot. I feel like The HGC Stalker and DD arks going down is pretty big, and may be enough to swing us up quite a bit.

Maybe, but as someone who can't stand the Doomsday Ark, you'll forgive me if it getting a points reduction doesn't exactly fill me with enthusiasm.


In fact, that's kind of the issue for me. I don't mind playing relatively weak armies, but the problem with Necrons is that I just find them boring at the moment. There's something about their current design that just saps away all my enthusiasm, and I'm afraid no amount of point reductions is likely to change that.

IMO the current Codex is the one with the worst design in the history of Necron codices, the only thing keeping me on board is how well 8th has been designed (even if the rules aren't perfect, the design philosophy is great).

Having had 24 hours to think about the changes and list build my thoughts are that in a vacuum our CA reductions are pretty good, if not stellar. On average we can fit in an extra squad or vehicle per list. However taking into consideration the vast reductions almost every other faction has received, we are still bottom tier.

The point drops on FW units, Wraiths, Stalker and Immortals are all welcome but why didn't they drop the points of more units that nobody takes? Wasn't that the entire point?

Spyders, Destroyer Lords and Flayed Ones all suck EVEN MORE in comparison than they did before. It's really sad.

 nintura wrote:
That's easy. They are a point and click army. They have no depth, no range of interests. They are very flat.

Yeah, I think that's pretty accurate, sadly.

 vict0988 wrote:

IMO the current Codex is the one with the worst design in the history of Necron codices, the only thing keeping me on board is how well 8th has been designed (even if the rules aren't perfect, the design philosophy is great).

Agreed.

While I wasn't a big fan of the fluff, I really miss 5th edition Necron book. It just had so many more options and more ways to build armies/units. I really loved using an army based around MSU Immortal squads, with each having an attached Cryptek or Lord.

I wasn't a big fan of the 7th edition book, but at least the Decurion gave me a legitimate reason to use most of my collection. I'd take a Spyder with Wraiths to give them RPs, I'd take a Destroyer Lord with the Destroyers to give them rerolls etc. The current book means that either half my collection just gathers dust or else I feel like I'm actively handicapping myself by taking my favourite models.

I like 8th edition, but I just don't see a reason to use Necrons over my Dark Eldar or Imperial Guard.

Cynista wrote:
Having had 24 hours to think about the changes and list build my thoughts are that in a vacuum our CA reductions are pretty good, if not stellar. On average we can fit in an extra squad or vehicle per list. However taking into consideration the vast reductions almost every other faction has received, we are still bottom tier.

The point drops on FW units, Wraiths, Stalker and Immortals are all welcome but why didn't they drop the points of more units that nobody takes? Wasn't that the entire point?

Spyders, Destroyer Lords and Flayed Ones all suck EVEN MORE in comparison than they did before. It's really sad.

Let's be fair here, some points reductions are going to benefit more armies than others, as it matters how much stuff was reduced by. My Thousand Sons and Daemons got some points drops, but they are no where near as significant as what Necrons got. Eldar saw some points increases, and drops, but the drops are on units you never saw while a few units like SS/s got mild increases.

Being able to cram another 250-300+ points in a new Necron list is nothing to scoff at, it's a pretty huge deal. This includes many units that were already considered good like the DD Arks, wraiths and Immortals.

We also did see them drop the points of most every unit that nobody takes. They clearly didn't hit them all, which is a shame, but I feel you are being disingenuous when you say that, as nearly every single unit got a points reduction in some fashion. There is a very small list of notable exceptions. Will it be enough for every unit? No, but it will be for some.

Now, I do think there are still some fundamental problems that hold us back from being toward the top, but I feel we are pretty safely in the middle now, and are significantly better off than we were. Most of the armies that saw major reductions like the Crons were hovering around the same tier, like ad mech, that we were.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:

 nintura wrote:
That's easy. They are a point and click army. They have no depth, no range of interests. They are very flat.

Yeah, I think that's pretty accurate, sadly.

 vict0988 wrote:

IMO the current Codex is the one with the worst design in the history of Necron codices, the only thing keeping me on board is how well 8th has been designed (even if the rules aren't perfect, the design philosophy is great).

Agreed.

While I wasn't a big fan of the fluff, I really miss 5th edition Necron book. It just had so many more options and more ways to build armies/units. I really loved using an army based around MSU Immortal squads, with each having an attached Cryptek or Lord.

I wasn't a big fan of the 7th edition book, but at least the Decurion gave me a legitimate reason to use most of my collection. I'd take a Spyder with Wraiths to give them RPs, I'd take a Destroyer Lord with the Destroyers to give them rerolls etc. The current book means that either half my collection just gathers dust or else I feel like I'm actively handicapping myself by taking my favourite models.

I like 8th edition, but I just don't see a reason to use Necrons over my Dark Eldar or Imperial Guard.

The 5th edition dex was a masterpiece, and I do miss it. We have assuredly lost a ton of flavor over time. I really miss my Crypteks and Entropic Strike.

 Sasori wrote:

Let's be fair here, some points reductions are going to benefit more armies than others, as it matters how much stuff was reduced by. My Thousand Sons and Daemons got some points drops, but they are no where near as significant as what Necrons got. Eldar saw some points increases, and drops, but the drops are on units you never saw while a few units like SS/s got mild increases.

Being able to cram another 250-300+ points in a new Necron list is nothing to scoff at, it's a pretty huge deal. This includes many units that were already considered good like the DD Arks, wraiths and Immortals.

We also did see them drop the points of most every unit that nobody takes. They clearly didn't hit them all, which is a shame, but I feel you are being disingenuous when you say that, as nearly every single unit got a points reduction in some fashion. There is a very small list of notable exceptions. Will it be enough for every unit? No, but it will be for some.

Now, I do think there are still some fundamental problems that hold us back from being toward the top, but I feel we are pretty safely in the middle now, and are significantly better off than we were. Most of the armies that saw major reductions like the Crons were hovering around the same tier, like ad mech, that we were.

Well only around half our units or slightly above that got point drops, which is definitely not nearly every single unit. And when that doesn't include some of the things that needed it most, it's a bit dumb really. So no I don't think I'm being disingenuous.

Being able to cram an extra 250 points into a new 2000p list is meaningless when half of the other armies can do that now too, including Guard, giving every Imperial player even more reason to use soup.

If you really think we are now comfortably mid tier, please tell me which 4-5 factions Necrons are better than, and more importantly, why

Ok, so I currently have the following list for +- 1800 points with the CA changes:

2x cloaktek
Lord

3x 5 T. Immortals

6 Wraiths
9x Tomb Blades
6x Destroyers
3x Scarabs

3x DDA.


What should i do with the spare 200 points?

Doctoralex wrote:
Ok, so I currently have the following list for +- 1800 points with the CA changes:

2x cloaktek
Lord

3x 5 T. Immortals

6 Wraiths
9x Tomb Blades
6x Destroyers
3x Scarabs

3x DDA.


What should i do with the spare 200 points?

I'd cut a cloaktek and 3 Scarabs and run another 6 Destroyers. No real reason to run 2 Cloakteks is there? It's a lot of pts for not a lot of damage output, if you fail to keep everyone within range every turn, so what? You've got another 85 pts of actual units in your army that can do stuff. You're losing a CP also, but I don't think that's a problem in your list. A Triarch Stalker and a bunch more Scarabs would be decent if you don't want to let go of your 9th CP. Sidegrading a Cryptek to an Overlord and getting 2x10 Tesla Immortals is also another good option.

Cynista wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

Let's be fair here, some points reductions are going to benefit more armies than others, as it matters how much stuff was reduced by. My Thousand Sons and Daemons got some points drops, but they are no where near as significant as what Necrons got. Eldar saw some points increases, and drops, but the drops are on units you never saw while a few units like SS/s got mild increases.

Being able to cram another 250-300+ points in a new Necron list is nothing to scoff at, it's a pretty huge deal. This includes many units that were already considered good like the DD Arks, wraiths and Immortals.

We also did see them drop the points of most every unit that nobody takes. They clearly didn't hit them all, which is a shame, but I feel you are being disingenuous when you say that, as nearly every single unit got a points reduction in some fashion. There is a very small list of notable exceptions. Will it be enough for every unit? No, but it will be for some.

Now, I do think there are still some fundamental problems that hold us back from being toward the top, but I feel we are pretty safely in the middle now, and are significantly better off than we were. Most of the armies that saw major reductions like the Crons were hovering around the same tier, like ad mech, that we were.

Well only around half our units or slightly above that got point drops, which is definitely not nearly every single unit. And when that doesn't include some of the things that needed it most, it's a bit dumb really. So no I don't think I'm being disingenuous.

Being able to cram an extra 250 points into a new 2000p list is meaningless when half of the other armies can do that now too, including Guard, giving every Imperial player even more reason to use soup.

If you really think we are now comfortably mid tier, please tell me which 4-5 factions Necrons are better than, and more importantly, why

Uh, it's more than half. Out of our Codex Units, we had 26 units drop in points (Which includes the weapons drops) If you in include Warscythe Overlords and Destroyer Lords, then it drops even further to 28. That's out of a total of 36. This doesn't even include Forgeworld, which I think everything but Ancanthrites dropped.

It is not meaningless, as I explained in my post. Not all armies got the volume of points drops that we did, and many of our points drops were already on viable units, like Wraiths and DD Arks. A good example is Praetorians. They say a points drop, but probably won't be used on the table. We had points drops on several units that were already seeing play on the table, making them more meaningful. A lot of the points drops we saw on other armies were on units that still likely won't see play.


As for factions that we are better than, I would say Grey Knights, Dark Angels, SOB with the beta Dex, and likely still Ad Mech. Necrons fared pretty well against any of these, except maybe SoB before, and I feel our points drops were more significant and on more significant units than what they saw.

I also think that a lot of QS'd vehicles, as we discussed earlier in the thread, are going to be tough for some armies to deal with. Right now we usually see two at most on the field, but in the future we may see 5 or more. This could cause a small ripple effect.

Overall, I think we have the tools to compete with most armies, and depending on how our builds evolve could prove to be rough for several armies to deal with. I don't think we will be at the top tables, but to me I think it's enough to pull us up.

Cynista wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

Let's be fair here, some points reductions are going to benefit more armies than others, as it matters how much stuff was reduced by. My Thousand Sons and Daemons got some points drops, but they are no where near as significant as what Necrons got. Eldar saw some points increases, and drops, but the drops are on units you never saw while a few units like SS/s got mild increases.

Being able to cram another 250-300+ points in a new Necron list is nothing to scoff at, it's a pretty huge deal. This includes many units that were already considered good like the DD Arks, wraiths and Immortals.

We also did see them drop the points of most every unit that nobody takes. They clearly didn't hit them all, which is a shame, but I feel you are being disingenuous when you say that, as nearly every single unit got a points reduction in some fashion. There is a very small list of notable exceptions. Will it be enough for every unit? No, but it will be for some.

Now, I do think there are still some fundamental problems that hold us back from being toward the top, but I feel we are pretty safely in the middle now, and are significantly better off than we were. Most of the armies that saw major reductions like the Crons were hovering around the same tier, like ad mech, that we were.

Well only around half our units or slightly above that got point drops, which is definitely not nearly every single unit. And when that doesn't include some of the things that needed it most, it's a bit dumb really. So no I don't think I'm being disingenuous.

Being able to cram an extra 250 points into a new 2000p list is meaningless when half of the other armies can do that now too, including Guard, giving every Imperial player even more reason to use soup.

If you really think we are now comfortably mid tier, please tell me which 4-5 factions Necrons are better than, and more importantly, why

Guard did not get anywhere near 250 points shaved off a 2k list. The only notable drops were to Sentinels and Tank Commanders. The latter of which is still a hard sell as long as Kingslayer remains a secondary in ITC, since giving up 4 easy VP is questionable no matter how cheap they are. I checked my old Guard lists in battlescribe and the highest reduction was 65 points. Meanwhile, the 2k Necron list I'm in the process of building/painting is 201 points lighter.

Part of the issue with just points drops is that it also only really scales into something meaningful at larger point games. At 2500 you might be getting 300 points back for other stuff, good for you. At 2000 you might be getting around 150-200 back on average, cool I guess. My group plays at 1500 as do the local tournaments here- 1500 is also the standard for the game outside of the biggest tournaments. I'm looking at, *at best*, around 40 points coming back to me from these drops.

At that level basically none of the units that were bad before are worth taking now. Maybe a triarch stalker, but that's it. And at 1500 I can't rely on double detachments and the like to farm CP's.

I mean, sure, "something is better then nothing", but how much am I actually gaining in power boost from just these points drops?

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Part of the issue with just points drops is that it also only really scales into something meaningful at larger point games. At 2500 you might be getting 300 points back for other stuff, good for you. At 2000 you might be getting around 150-200 back on average, cool I guess. My group plays at 1500 as do the local tournaments here- 1500 is also the standard for the game outside of the biggest tournaments. I'm looking at, *at best*, around 40 points coming back to me from these drops.

At that level basically none of the units that were bad before are worth taking now. Maybe a triarch stalker, but that's it. And at 1500 I can't rely on double detachments and the like to farm CP's.

I mean, sure, "something is better then nothing", but how much am I actually gaining in power boost from just these points drops?

1500 is the reverse sweet spot for necrons. We're good in low point games, and these changes should buff is higher point games, but 1500 is an awkward middle ground.

I'm super excited to see how my next few games go. My usual opponents are Ad Mech and Drukhari (a relatively chill build though) too, so I get to see them against another list that saw big changes, and one that saw bugger all change. I've got the Spearhead box coming tomorrow, definitely getting 2 more DDAs and probably investing in some Stalkers now though.

This evening I was putting pen to paper to try and work a list i want to go into this change.

Seems my thoughts matched most peoples views on here and for a 1.5k list i got this



This list comes to exactly 1500, or 1739 before CA. Cant say how much it annoys me to drop an immortal unit to 9 to make it all fit.

Generally see the stalkers making sure the immortals and the doomsday's hit as support than main damage dealers, though will help against knights