So apparently, according to Frothers, the Perry's left their job at GW this week. No official details about wether the split was amicable or not are available.
Well, they do run their own really successful business anyway, perhaps the day job just became unnecessary or too time-consuming on top of all their other work?
If it means more releases for their own miniature lines, this is definitely a good thing!
I heard that their salary was around £90k, so you can see why they stayed as long as they did despite running a business alongside.
They did some amazing work when left to their own devices at GW, kits like the Mordheim militia were amazing and their work on the LotR line was just plain brilliant, without them it wouldn't have looked anywhere near as good.
Interesting. Anyone know what sculpts they worked on on the recent releases, I can't think of any they put their name to. I know they worked on most of the LOTR/Hobbit stuff, but none of that has been released in months.
It could be that the LotR stuff is now done, seeing as a lot of the kits are made well in advance, so perhaps with that out of the way they decided to call it quits after many years and solely focus on their own company and the tank they own.
Thirded on the idea that LOTR is done, and so they are too. Sorry to hear they're leaving, but I'll be very interested in the world they do for their own company
GW has to bid goodbye to two freakishly talented sculptors. Seriously, losing your master hand and relearning to sculpt with your off hand to that level? Nuts!
But the more napoleonics they can punch out in plastic the better, maybe a 95th Rifles box! I can dream can't I?
Anyone have an actual proper link to this? I routinely browse Frothers but can't seem to find the post in question. I also did a Google search and found a recent topic on TMP that cites Beasts of War as having provided the rumor but the user didn't post an actual link to the article.
I even searched Beasts of War and found a few recent comments on a new blog post that mention the Perry's leaving, but to read the article you need to be a monthly subscriber to BoW... I'm wondering if this is actually a legitimate rumor or if BoW are just attempting to lure in some more paying subscribers.
motyak wrote: GW has to bid goodbye to two freakishly talented sculptors. Seriously, losing your master hand and relearning to sculpt with your off hand to that level? Nuts!
But the more napoleonics they can punch out in plastic the better, maybe a 95th Rifles box! I can dream can't I?
They really don't need hand sculpted greens anymore.
Besides, they could CAD sculpts of similar quality.
This is not to imply the Perry's aren't amazing, it is just the admission that computer aided design now makes sculpting much easier. Traditional artists have been dealing with this for years. Photoshop makes design a snap for 2d purposes.
CAD sculpts can be good, but they've yet to produce something of the quality and character of Perry or Tre Manor sculpts in my opinion. I'm certainly still in the market for both.
GW's loss, but hopefully those two will keep producing their excellent stuff.
I think CAD is great for certain things, but the faces of the recent releases have really lost their 'soul' for me. I think it's a good way to churn out a lot of vehicles and some interesting units, especially armoured ones, but the 'flesh' doesn't seem to match up at all and looks like WoW computer images. I found this really noticeable in the shift from the old B Nelson SAG to the new digital one.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: I think CAD is great for certain things, but the faces of the recent releases have really lost their 'soul' for me. I think it's a good way to churn out a lot of vehicles and some interesting units, especially armoured ones, but the 'flesh' doesn't seem to match up at all and looks like WoW computer images. I found this really noticeable in the shift from the old B Nelson SAG to the new digital one.
Fits right in with a lot of what's been coming out of Lenton in the last few years I guess.
Edit: Any chance of a link to the Frothers thread?
It's not on the main Frothers site yet - it's up on the FB page. I picked it up on the Oldhammer FB page - posted by a guy called Ben Clapperton - reporting the BoLS rumour.
Da Boss wrote: CAD sculpts can be good, but they've yet to produce something of the quality and character of Perry or Tre Manor sculpts in my opinion. I'm certainly still in the market for both.
GW's loss, but hopefully those two will keep producing their excellent stuff.
It is a question of taste.
I have never been one to buy into the handsculpt=character.
Too often people mistake flawed with character. If that is what they see I don't disagree. It is probably the same idea as those who adore Blanche and dislike Kopinski or Dainton.
I don't think you're really correct there, but I don't think I'll convince you through argument.
For me, it's about miniscule changes in the set of a brow or the curl of a lip that CAD models don't seem to have, but that the very best hand sculpted minis can manage.
CAD probably produces GOOD miniatures for most purposes much more easily and with less of a requirement for serious talent than hand sculpting. And for certain things, it's excellent. But truly awesome sculpts for human faces and the like still require a very talented hand sculptor.
Da Boss wrote: I don't think you're really correct there, but I don't think I'll convince you through argument.
For me, it's about miniscule changes in the set of a brow or the curl of a lip that CAD models don't seem to have, but that the very best hand sculpted minis can manage.
CAD probably produces GOOD miniatures for most purposes much more easily and with less of a requirement for serious talent than hand sculpting. And for certain things, it's excellent. But truly awesome sculpts for human faces and the like still require a very talented hand sculptor.
Neither of us are right or wrong, it is purely opinion.
There is nothing that can't be done in CAD that can be done by hand. I think where things sometimes break down is the fact that in many cases CAD designers are a little more technical rather than artistic, though that is somewhat insulting to the profession. They are able to produce technically clean and lovely models, but they aren't necessarily bringing decades of sculpting talents to the table.
Personally, I find the current GW line to be far superior to previous iterations. Much of that might be from actual production improvements though, mores than the move to computer aided sculpting.
Mr Gutsy wrote: Anyone have an actual proper link to this? I routinely browse Frothers but can't seem to find the post in question. I also did a Google search and found a recent topic on TMP that cites Beasts of War as having provided the rumor but the user didn't post an actual link to the article.
I even searched Beasts of War and found a few recent comments on a new blog post that mention the Perry's leaving, but to read the article you need to be a monthly subscriber to BoW... I'm wondering if this is actually a legitimate rumor or if BoW are just attempting to lure in some more paying subscribers.
Its not a rumour, it was mentioned during the Beasts of War backstage content today that he spoke directly to the Perrys about a Waterloo project, and they can now help him as they had left GW the day before.
Its not clickbait, it was just part of a discussion about an ongoing project.
Beasts of War covered it briefly on XLBS today Warren contacted them to talk about some Napoleonic stuff and they confirmed to him that they had left GW 2 days before. They were at GW for 36 years and I guess with the Hobbit finishing up it was time to focus on their own company. It will be interesting to see if they did any of the new Bretonnian stuff. Some of my favourite GW minis have been done by the Perrys it was their Bretonnians stuff that got me interested in WHFB.
In the last year, that's Juan Diaz and now the Perrys---3 of their top sculptors. I wonder if that's an industry switch to 3d plastic kits or just sculptors moving to greener pastures.
Its the war of the roses hosts, either Lancastrian or Yorkshire, 240 infantry, a dozen cavalry plus command and some artillery for £130, they are better empire troops than GWs and at a shockingly smaller price.
Da Boss wrote: I don't think you're really correct there, but I don't think I'll convince you through argument.
For me, it's about miniscule changes in the set of a brow or the curl of a lip that CAD models don't seem to have, but that the very best hand sculpted minis can manage.
CAD probably produces GOOD miniatures for most purposes much more easily and with less of a requirement for serious talent than hand sculpting. And for certain things, it's excellent. But truly awesome sculpts for human faces and the like still require a very talented hand sculptor.
It's the artist, not the medium. You can actually get MORE detail out of a CAD sculp because you can zoom in and work at whatever size you wish to and you can go back and make changes easier. BoW had an interview last week with Corvus Belli and one of the things they mentioned was making a conscious effort to dial back the level of detail Infinity models have bcause they were too difficult to paint. Case in point, these MaxMini heads are CAD designed 3D prints and have more character than anything you could ever see with hand sculpting.
Spoiler:
Or are you really going to say that this Librarian has any less character than these Librarians? I would also put these girls up against any traditionally sculpted models as well. Many of the CAD models aren't as good because the artists involved aren't as good, but the same is true for traditional sculpts too even within GW's range. Lemartes, Doom Rider, Cortez, Nagash, all of those were terrible models traditionally sculpted and cast.
The Perrys produce amazing models because they're amazing artists. Their chosen medium is being moved away from, but they are masters of it. Sculpters of equal skill working in CAD will produce miniatures just as amazing and detailed and characterful. On a personal level, I'm glad for the Perrys moving away from GW, because I have moved away from GW, and I want to see more Perry plastics because they're both awesome and inexpensive.
willb2064 wrote: Doesn't bode well for the LOTR and Hobbit lines. Sad times.
I think the last 5+ years haven't really been kind to that entire line...
Interested in seeing what the Perry's do now, and where they go from here.
Maybe in a year or so, if there's a limited non-compete of some sort involved?
Still, should be worth waiting for and exciting!
True. Considering how much money GW made off the 1st release (2000-2004), I've surprised they seem to be treating The Hobbit as an afterthought. Really don't know what will happen when the license expires.
Reckon the Perry's will just concentrate on their impressive historicals line. I also don't think they will be missed by GW as their input involvement in 40k or WFB has been pretty minimal over the last few years.
With the Hobbit done I wonder if their departure also indicates that Warhammer Fantasy (which I presume is all they would really be interested in doing) is still not a big priority for GW
It could be they walked away on their own, but it could be they left as there really wasn't the work for them to do either at GW or Forgeworld as all those are really focusing on is 30/40K
I think this is in interesting, because I wonder about the quality of the GW minis as I think they probably had a good hand in many of the sculpts we see today imo..
As for LOTR/Hobbit line it does arise questions, not just in the model but the relationship between new line and GW, as I knew GW only got the license only because of the relationship between Jackson and the Perry's..
sing your life wrote: The other GW sculptors were making models for Hobbit before the Perrys quit, so they are still making models.
Sure, but the game seems to be dying an accelerated death and I doubt GW is willing to spend money on it beyond what's absolutely necessary to keep to the letter of the licence.
Say what you like about digital vs traditional, I actually think most poor GW minis, certainly in recent history, have failed at the concept stage, and were always going to struggle to achieve any sort of quality in the finished article regardless.
PS I've just checked in with the Slaughterbrute while typing this, and he seems to agree.
CAD is just a tool.....it's no more or less than the traditional tools of the trade.....what counts is the hand behind the brush.
Plus, I'd be very surprised if ANY sculptor in any industry earns £90K p/a, do you realise what level you need to be in the Automotive industry to get that? I recently turned down £70K and that still costs me sleepless nights!
The Perry Bros are totally ace sculptors. Their historical lines are some of the best done figures ever made. They clearly can adapt to new methods such as plastic if they want to.
As for parting with GW, I imagine it would be a variety of reasons.
They are in their mid-50s now and can start drawing a pension if their funds have done well. I doubt there is much to interest them at GW any more. If GW are going over to entirely CAD-CAM sculpting the Perrys may not be interested and they have a good historicals business to run anyway.
I would say this is good news for people wanting 28mm historical figures.
The Perry Bros are totally ace sculptors. Their historical lines are some of the best done figures ever made. They clearly can adapt to new methods such as plastic if they want to.
As for parting with GW, I imagine it would be a variety of reasons.
They are in their mid-50s now and can start drawing a pension if their funds have done well. I doubt there is much to interest them at GW any more. If GW are going over to entirely CAD-CAM sculpting the Perrys may not be interested and they have a good historicals business to run anyway.
I would say this is good news for people wanting 28mm historical figures.
Absolutely! Have got a ton of their historical miniatures and they are fantastic, hopefully now this will increase the rate of their own ranges. Really can't wait for their plastic men-at-arms later on this year!
jamesk1973 wrote: So what style of sculpting made the abomination that is the Gorka/Morka-thingy just released?
Because that thing is hideous...
The Gorkanaut/Morkanaut are great miniatures
Are you being serious? or facetious?
I reminds of that dog that was so fat its legs couldn't touch the ground.
I may be showing my age here, but pretty much like Ferdinand, the dog from the Tom&Jerry movie. So fat it has to move around with a skateboard under it.
No, I was saying I and most people like the new Ork stuff.
No you didn't.
You're back to posting random brain spurts of single sentence posts that need several other posts after people misinterpret whatever you intended as for some reason you simply cannot be bothered to expand upon whatever thought popped into your head.
You refuted his opinion with your opinion presented as a fact. It is not a fact to say the aesthetic appeal of a miniature is objective truth. Post more than once sentence at a time and things like this won't happen. The rest of Dakka is not in your head. We cannot see that author's intent, this is especially prevalent on a text based forum where nobody can see if you're being sarcastic, facetious or simply genuine.
Cool, I've never heard of these guys, sad they left gw but surprised they had their own website.
I know this is a weird question, but are those models they make, specifically the horses, compatible size wise with 40k? I want to make some orks on horses, don't care if they look stupid, but I have an idea.
Specifically these horses:https://www.perry-miniatures.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_63&products_id=2756&osCsid=dt3lfbb0pj08qd5qc8cnl3qv23
Though I do believe they're more LOTR scale, as shown in this plog on Warseer. Which, admittedly has the ACW ones, but I imagine they'd be the same scale.
Ok cool. Yeah they are cheap just wanted know know if anyone has them. I need to figure out what base sizes that guy has put them on, if they are 40mm then this might just work....
Very interested to see where this leads. The Perry brothers are true talent and as long as they aren't quitting GW to have more time to kick back (not that they don't deserve it) I think we can expect to see good stuff on the horizon.
This is purely wishful thinking - I wouldn't be surprised if they have a no-compete clause that will keep them out of sci-fantasy for a while- but I would love to see something fantasy related from Perry Miniatures in the future.
I know this is a weird question, but are those models they make, specifically the horses, compatible size wise with 40k? I want to make some orks on horses, don't care if they look stupid, but I have an idea.
Specifically these horses:https://www.perry-miniatures.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_63&products_id=2756&osCsid=dt3lfbb0pj08qd5qc8cnl3qv23
Most likely they would not be compatible. Perry Horses are smaller than GW horses and GW orks are much bigger than Perry humans.
Perry miniatures are what is known as True-scale 28mm. This means that they are 28mm from sole of foot to eyeline and that they are close to realistic proportions. Current GW minis are called heroic 28mm (but many are closer to 30mm) so their proportions are going to be much thicker than Perry.
Still, if you don't care if it looks stupid, (nothing stupid about big orks on little ponies….) it would give you horses to put orks on.
Sweet, thanks for the info. I never knew there was a difference between heroic and true scale. Yeah I had envisioned orks on donkeys, so ponies might be even more crazier.
The basic horses paint up pretty well, can't speak for the ancient ones but the samurai horses are not good. The basic horses with no tack are just fine.
Back to the thread more or less... I was a big proponent of the hand sculpt=better and more character right up until I received the Pulp Alley figures made by Statuesque. They're great, perfect amount of detail. The best digital-to-metal transition I've seen to date.
I imagine Jes Goodwin can still do hand sculpting, but I don't know how much he still does.
I'd say it's a huge loss that GW have lost the Perry bros, but I'm not really sure. The new guard of digital sculptors at GW have been doing some excellent work (as someone earlier in the thread said, most problems with new models were at the concept level, not the sculpting level) and with them, Jes Goodwin, and John Blanche still around doing conceptual work, there will continue to be good releases from GW. The Perry bros have only really been doing LotR/Hobbit stuff for the last decade and not much in the way of 40k or Fantasy, so their absence won't be seen by many folks in those lines.
Let's not forget the heaps and heaps of great work they've done, from the great Empire models from Fantasy to the legions of excellent IG models they've done. I'm proud of the Valhallan horde I have made up almost entirely of great old Perry sculpts. I can only hope this means either plastic sci fi troops from them (some plastic not-Valhallans would make my day) or they get to ramp up production on all their great historical ranges.
An interesting development, but as others have said, not one that bothers me. Now let's just hope that the Perrys can move beyond the 1980's-1990's style "percentage for postage" model and I'd be all over one of those WotR hosts.
But yes, more plastic ranges from them would be gold. WW2, Crusades...
Grarg wrote: Sweet, thanks for the info. I never knew there was a difference between heroic and true scale. Yeah I had envisioned orks on donkeys, so ponies might be even more crazier.
Happy to help. The scale thing can get pretty convoluted, even more so when scale creep happens and you have figs being given a mm label that are actually even taller. Luckly there's alot of great folks here at Dakka who are willing to tell you how a given set of minis will compare in both height and girth.
All the best with your project. It sounds weird and wonderful.
PapaSoul wrote: That new Ork Painboy is a CaD model. And that thing is hideous
That's like saying the new Ork Painboy is plastic, and therefore all plastics are hideous. Nagash was an awful sculpt; are all metals or hand sculpted models bad? No, no they aren't. Good work can be done in any medium, as can bad work.
PapaSoul wrote: That new Ork Painboy is a CaD model. And that thing is hideous
That's like saying the new Ork Painboy is plastic, and therefore all plastics are hideous.
A lot of plastic miniatures are traditional sculpted instead of CAD. Though the new painboy is officially a great miniature so his point is still kind of invalid.
sing your life wrote:
All historical miniatures I know are true-scale. Not just Perry.
Azazelx wrote:
There are lots that are heroically proportioned, though - even if they're not the larger height-scale that GW is currently using.
While true "true-scale" is nearly impossible to achieve in 28mm (wrists and guns are just to fragile at scale), Historical miniatures run the gamut from what we refer to as true scale, to chunky "Heroics". Perry happens to be closer to true scale, and also has done a very good job of keeping the proportions their plastics and metals very close. There are differences, but within limits most folks would find acceptable.
sing your life wrote:
Some companies like Warlord make their historicals with quasi-heroic proportions, but I do not think anyone makes fully heroic historicals.
I'm not sure "fully heroic" really exists, as who'se to say what companies figures are the chunky'est. Taking GW as a measuring stick for "heroic" I've not seen any historicals as chunky as Catachans, but there are a few lines that are as thick as Cadians. I think that TAG miniatures are close. For the more popular periods, you can find miniatures in virtually every permutation from True-to-Heroic.
frozenwastes wrote:From the smaller manufacturers who primarily do metal you'll get things like these ones from SHQ:
Spoiler:
While this sort of things used to be up my alley, now I prefer humans that look like humans
Most metal companies (especially those with older lines) are going to be a bit chunkier in general simply to keep the figures sturdy enough for the tabletop. True scale looks nice, but it's worthwhile to consider just how sturdy your miniatures need to be, especially when you're dealing with rank upon rank of pole arms or bayoneted rifles.
PapaSoul wrote: That new Ork Painboy is a CaD model. And that thing is hideous
That's like saying the new Ork Painboy is plastic, and therefore all plastics are hideous.
A lot of plastic miniatures are traditional sculpted instead of CAD. Though the new painboy is officially a great miniature so his point is still kind of invalid.
Nope, it's terrible. The lack of detail? The smoothness? The ridiculous gurn on his stupid face? Or perhaps how stupid the grot on his back looks?
I really like a couple of the new ork characters, but I just can't get behind the Painboy.
There are lots that are heroically proportioned, though - even if they're not the larger height-scale that GW is currently using.
Some companies like Warlord make their historicals with quasi-heroic proportions, but I do not think anyone makes fully heroic historicals.
While I thought of Warlord as well, there's also Black Tree Designs/Harlequin, Renegade Miniatures, and no doubt others that are just as heroic as any GW model. Even if they're not as tall.
PapaSoul wrote: That new Ork Painboy is a CaD model. And that thing is hideous
That's like saying the new Ork Painboy is plastic, and therefore all plastics are hideous. Nagash was an awful sculpt; are all metals or hand sculpted models bad? No, no they aren't. Good work can be done in any medium, as can bad work.
I think it has character and orky charm. It's the first 40k plastic character miniature I really like, having hated the previous ones based solely on the price.
I'm not sure "fully heroic" really exists, as who'se to say what companies figures are the chunky'est. Taking GW as a measuring stick for "heroic" I've not seen any historicals as chunky as Catachans, but there are a few lines that are as thick as Cadians. I think that TAG miniatures are close. For the more popular periods, you can find miniatures in virtually every permutation from True-to-Heroic.
Catachans are cartoonish outliers though - even for GW's "heroic". The Catachan plastics doubly so.
I suspect that the Perrys were contracted specifically for the Hobbit models because Peter Jackson is a massive fan of theirs. Given the lead time to sculpt miniatures it could simply be that their contract is now finished.
sing your life wrote: The plastic Chatachan miniatures literally look like they've replaced all their food with steroids.
They look like they've replaced their bodies with stockings filled with melons. But these jokes just go to show how ridiculous these outliers really are. Good thing the Perry Twins would never design anything that hideous...
sing your life wrote: The plastic Chatachan miniatures literally look like they've replaced all their food with steroids.
They look like they've replaced their bodies with stockings filled with melons. But these jokes just go to show how ridiculous these outliers really are. Good thing the Perry Twins would never design anything that hideous...
Bloodwin wrote: I suspect that the Perrys were contracted specifically for the Hobbit models because Peter Jackson is a massive fan of theirs. Given the lead time to sculpt miniatures it could simply be that their contract is now finished.
That is a good shout actually, I know Alan and Michael have done other stuff for Jackson.
PapaSoul wrote: That new Ork Painboy is a CaD model. And that thing is hideous
Every plastic GW model released in the last 10 years is a CAD model.
I thought GW only started using CAD in about 2007.
Skaven plague monks and rat ogres in June 2005 were the first computer sculpted miniatures I believe, but it wasn't an overnight flip (pretty sure there was lots of hand sculpted stuff after that).
sing your life wrote: The plastic Chatachan miniatures literally look like they've replaced all their food with steroids.
They look like they've replaced their bodies with stockings filled with melons. But these jokes just go to show how ridiculous these outliers really are. Good thing the Perry Twins would never design anything that hideous...
While I thought of Warlord as well, there's also Black Tree Designs/Harlequin, Renegade Miniatures, and no doubt others that are just as heroic as any GW model. Even if they're not as tall.
Here's a picture of some BTD/Harlequin Soviets I painted up a while ago as post-apoc neo-soveits. Ignore the not-commisar who is a Demonblade fig that towers over even GW figures, but the VOR Neo-Sov Rad Trooper next to him is pretty comparable to GW dimensions.
They aren't quite as big as Cadians, but the girth and proportions are chunky in a Copplestone, early GW sort of way, especialy the weapons. Definitely chunkier than Perry.
sing your life wrote: The plastic Chatachan miniatures literally look like they've replaced all their food with steroids.
They look like they've replaced their bodies with stockings filled with melons. But these jokes just go to show how ridiculous these outliers really are. Good thing the Perry Twins would never design anything that hideous...
I think it is perfectly reasonable to equate flaws with character, to a certain extent. Human beings are not perfect. Most people actually find perfection to be somewhat off-putting, because it is unnatural.
Nature is not perfect, it is not symmetrical. The natural world is full of 'flaws' and 'imperfections'. Computer Aided Design is only a tool, and the hand behind the brush, so to speak, matters a great deal.
However, the nature of the medium encourages the hand behind the brush to use methods that inject a great deal more 'perfection' into a piece. This can be incredibly useful, in that a gun will always be exactly the same, and you can save time by not having to sculpt it over and over.
But even real world manufactured items have individual variability. The re-use of materials (and traditional sculptors do this too) can suck a little soul of of a piece precisely because there are fewer 'natural' variations.
Sometimes a person's right arm is longer than their left arm. Two soldiers wearing the same uniform will wear it in subtly different ways (even when following regulations), and it will become distressed in different ways through use.
In short, 'imperfections' can indeed create character by maiking something seem more real and natural, and character is not merely an excuse for imperfections.
Bloodwin wrote: I suspect that the Perrys were contracted specifically for the Hobbit models because Peter Jackson is a massive fan of theirs. Given the lead time to sculpt miniatures it could simply be that their contract is now finished.
That is a good shout actually, I know Alan and Michael have done other stuff for Jackson.
I suspect this to be the real reason. LotR may be the only reason the Perrys stuck around for so long. With LotR wrapping up, there's no reason for them to stay.
We are aware that there are rumours flying around that we have left Games Workshop! Thought we should set the record straight and let you all know that…we have! After 36 years, man and boy, working on Warhammer, 40K and of course, for the last 15 years LotR and the Hobbit we are now able to focus our energy on our historical ranges.This means more time to dedicate to Perry Miniatures, and of course Mr Jackson who we continue to make 54mm WW1 figures for. We had an excellent evening on Friday at The Trip to Jerusalem with GW, and ex-GW, colleagues and friends who got us very, very drunk - cheers!
Bloodwin wrote: I suspect that the Perrys were contracted specifically for the Hobbit models because Peter Jackson is a massive fan of theirs. Given the lead time to sculpt miniatures it could simply be that their contract is now finished.
That is a good shout actually, I know Alan and Michael have done other stuff for Jackson.
I suspect this to be the real reason. LotR may be the only reason the Perrys stuck around for so long. With LotR wrapping up, there's no reason for them to stay.
I doubt Peter Jackson had anything to do with the merchandising of LoTR for gaming purposes. Those sorts of merchandising rights are handled at the studio level generally.
Bloodwin wrote: I suspect that the Perrys were contracted specifically for the Hobbit models because Peter Jackson is a massive fan of theirs. Given the lead time to sculpt miniatures it could simply be that their contract is now finished.
That is a good shout actually, I know Alan and Michael have done other stuff for Jackson.
I suspect this to be the real reason. LotR may be the only reason the Perrys stuck around for so long. With LotR wrapping up, there's no reason for them to stay.
I doubt Peter Jackson had anything to do with the merchandising of LoTR for gaming purposes. Those sorts of merchandising rights are handled at the studio level generally.
IIRC, the Perrys were extras in one (or more) of the Lord of the Rings films.
Glad to see they'll be able to focus on their Men-at-Arms line now, I've been waiting for them to get around to it. Looking forward to see how they turn out, as they'd make great troops for a host of different game systems.
Aren't they mostly already done? I saw some greens for them some time ago, I think it was just a case of finishing them off and putting the things into production.
IIRC the release date for them was pencilled in for this year.
Agree though, they will no doubt be very versatile (and hopefully continue the trend of quality of the other Perry plastics!)
Let's hope they can concentrate on their own range of products now. I'd love to see them do the Samurai range in plastic.
I really hope they do so. The WGF plastics are ok but have nothing on the quality of perry stuff.
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Pacific wrote: Aren't they mostly already done? I saw some greens for them some time ago, I think it was just a case of finishing them off and putting the things into production.
IIRC the release date for them was pencilled in for this year.
Agree though, they will no doubt be very versatile (and hopefully continue the trend of quality of the other Perry plastics!)
I think its just waiting for rendara now. They are 100% sculpted as far as I am aware.
ATXMILEY wrote: Its really obvious the sculpts that perry does
if they are somewhat realisticly proportioned and does not look like a fisher price toy, then its likely Perry
That's entirely up to the aesthetics of the line. Their 40k/Fantasy stuff is as "heroically" proportioned as anyone else's stuff. The LotR and historical stuff they do tends to be closer to realistic proportions since that's the aesthetic of those ranges.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Well there goes the last 2 people in GW who could sculpt human beings.
Jes Goodwin? I know Eldar aren't "human" exactly, but the dude does great work.
Yeah, yeah, I was being just a bit faciious. I'm sure they're still plenty of great sculpters there, but I've been a on a big 2nd edition IG and Necromunda kick lately. Dang those models just ooze character.
At least we can thank God they got rid of whoever was responsible for those plastic Catachans
Yeah, yeah, I was being just a bit faciious. I'm sure they're still plenty of great sculpters there, but I've been a on a big 2nd edition IG and Necromunda kick lately. Dang those models just ooze character.
At least we can thank God they got rid of whoever was responsible for those plastic Catachans
Well, Jes Goodwin sculpted the Escher gang for Necromunda, and did at least concept art for most of the other gangs....so the minis at least were inspired by him.
There's actually some really good/great artwork for the Catachans by artists like Gibbons, Kopinski, etc. Some of the metals are also good figures, while others are just bad. The plastics, however, are awful. (Though the heavy and command boxes that came later are far less awful). We all have off-days at work. The Perrys had an off-range.
The Perrys are certainly talented sculptors, but not the best that GW has had. They are (were) the solid, dependable workhorses of the studio. Perfect for the less flashy lines like Humans and Dwarfs.
Hardly surprising as part of gws clearing house, plus lord of the rings can only have a couple of years left and all the moulds are probably finished for it
That leaves J. Goodwin as one of the last talented GW sculptors.
And concerning the perry twins, They had an dual job working for both Wargames Foundy and Games Workshop ( Who in a long thime ago where more or less the same )
They quit Foundy to make there own ( historical ) ranges and stayed with GW for the more realistic ranges.
And since any sense of "normal"models has gone overboard with GW ( it shows with the current batch of monstrosities ( pun intended ) that are released upon us) I thinks they deceided to go for a 100% for there own ranges.
My personal message for the the perry's:
Good for you, and good luck with the hostorical ranges.
Youve all missed the most important point of all; CAD design is cheaper and more profitable. Personal preference about which is better is irrelevant when you need to do mas production runs like GW does.
The new CAD designed molds not only get made faster, easier, arguably better.... they last longer too (so more potential profit).
.... pretty much everything GW has done in recent years is about the profit lines more than anything romantic about their medium/universe.
Goodwin will be there until the stars burn out, assuming GW is still around. He's firmly a company stooge, and I doubt very much he would be able to survive without the umbilicus.
Goodwin will be there until the stars burn out, assuming GW is still around. He's firmly a company stooge, and I doubt very much he would be able to survive without the umbilicus.
I assume you have a good reason for having such a low opinion of the guy. Care to enlighten us?
Does anyone have any solid information that the twins did the catachan plastics or are we just speculating? I found a reference on Warseer, but noting corroborating.
As for the models themselves, sure they are pretty goofy by today's standards, but they were the first IG Plastic troopers in over a decade and IIRC, they were very well received. They had lots of options, separate weapons (something that mostly went away unfortunately) and lots of character.
Remember also that this was the first wave of the new era of plastic multipart models for 40k (Early 3rd edition) and they were released in 1999. These are 14 year old models and the geneisis of what GW infantry have become, and it's not really fair to compare them to current plastics or even the metal figs of the same period.
There are lots that are heroically proportioned, though - even if they're not the larger height-scale that GW is currently using.
Some companies like Warlord make their historicals with quasi-heroic proportions, but I do not think anyone makes fully heroic historicals.
While I thought of Warlord as well, there's also Black Tree Designs/Harlequin, Renegade Miniatures, and no doubt others that are just as heroic as any GW model. Even if they're not as tall.
For anyone looking for realistically proportioned miniatures, I can heartily recommend Fife and Drum Miniatures. They are beautiful sculpts, the guy who runs it is really nice, and they are affordably priced (only $2 per figure)
http://fifedrumminis.blogspot.com/
Goodwin will be there until the stars burn out, assuming GW is still around. He's firmly a company stooge, and I doubt very much he would be able to survive without the umbilicus.
I assume you have a good reason for having such a low opinion of the guy. Care to enlighten us?
I assume it's in relation to Goodwin's testimony during the Chapterhouse case.
Eilif wrote: Does anyone have any solid information that the twins did the catachan plastics or are we just speculating? I found a reference on Warseer, but noting corroborating.
As for the models themselves, sure they are pretty goofy by today's standards, but they were the first IG Plastic troopers in over a decade and IIRC, they were very well received. They had lots of options, separate weapons (something that mostly went away unfortunately) and lots of character.
Remember also that this was the first wave of the new era of plastic multipart models for 40k (Early 3rd edition) and they were released in 1999. These are 14 year old models and the geneisis of what GW infantry have become, and it's not really fair to compare them to current plastics or even the metal figs of the same period.
The boxes the models come in say who scultped them. The box for Catachan infantry squads says they were designed by the Perry twins, Jes Goodwin, and one other sculptor who's also really well regarded but I can't place at the moment. I chalk that kit up to too many cooks in the kitchen and sculptors working with relatively new technology. Don't forget the Eldar Guardians, Ork Boyz, and Space Marine tactical squad came out around the same time, and they're all leaps and bounds better kits that still look good on the table today. Similarly, Dark Eldar Warriors came out at the same time and they're utterly abominable, but that's Gary Morley for you.
PapaSoul wrote: That new Ork Painboy is a CaD model. And that thing is hideous
Every plastic GW model released in the last 10 years is a CAD model.
I thought GW only started using CAD in about 2007.
It's a fairly interesting history. GW was using a plastics company via contract work, in the late 80's and early 90's. Then they bought out that company, integrated their equipment and staff, and make the owner the head of their plastics engineering division. Then when GW started switching to CAD only (instead of traditional 3-up), they forced their plastics guy into early retirement. A month after he left GW, he started Renedra. Whose first kit was a Perry kit, and who also do plastics for companies such as Mantic, Fireforge, Warlord, etc...
Eilif wrote:Does anyone have any solid information that the twins did the catachan plastics or are we just speculating? I found a reference on Warseer, but noting corroborating.
As for the models themselves, sure they are pretty goofy by today's standards, but they were the first IG Plastic troopers in over a decade and IIRC, they were very well received. They had lots of options, separate weapons (something that mostly went away unfortunately) and lots of character.
Remember also that this was the first wave of the new era of plastic multipart models for 40k (Early 3rd edition) and they were released in 1999. These are 14 year old models and the geneisis of what GW infantry have become, and it's not really fair to compare them to current plastics or even the metal figs of the same period.
The Catachans were a popular line, but I don't think they were particularly good compared to other plastics from the era (particularly the Nelson orks who were released a few years earlier). They made armies cheaper though, and that was an important consideration. Compared to any of the metal lines, they were a huge downgrade. Catachans were released in plastic because their metals were very popular, so I think they integrated into existing armies very well too, which was important as 3rd edition required more actual infantry in a guard army than was needed before.
Medium of Death wrote: Who scultped the Catachan Command Squad? If it was one of the Perrys surely that makes up for the earlier crime of the plastic Catachans?
Eilif wrote: Does anyone have any solid information that the twins did the catachan plastics or are we just speculating? I found a reference on Warseer, but noting corroborating.
As for the models themselves, sure they are pretty goofy by today's standards, but they were the first IG Plastic troopers in over a decade and IIRC, they were very well received. They had lots of options, separate weapons (something that mostly went away unfortunately) and lots of character.
Remember also that this was the first wave of the new era of plastic multipart models for 40k (Early 3rd edition) and they were released in 1999. These are 14 year old models and the geneisis of what GW infantry have become, and it's not really fair to compare them to current plastics or even the metal figs of the same period.
The boxes the models come in say who scultped them. The box for Catachan infantry squads says they were designed by the Perry twins, Jes Goodwin, and one other sculptor who's also really well regarded but I can't place at the moment. I chalk that kit up to too many cooks in the kitchen and sculptors working with relatively new technology. Don't forget the Eldar Guardians, Ork Boyz, and Space Marine tactical squad came out around the same time, and they're all leaps and bounds better kits that still look good on the table today. Similarly, Dark Eldar Warriors came out at the same time and they're utterly abominable, but that's Gary Morley for you.
(putting on my serious discussion hat for a moment)
Technically they are fine kits, the seperate weapons, the diversity of bodies and weapons, even most of the poses are fine. The running legs are a bit derpy but I found by tilting the model and pinning it they can look credible.
The problem was first off the decision to make a Whole Army of Rambo. Even if they were realistic Vietnam era troops with helmets, slouch hats and sleeves they'd be 10 times better. If they'd been an update of the RT grey guys or plastic Cadians (modeled on the metal ones) they would have stood the test of time a lot better.
Second was GW's stingy attitude on special and heavy weapons, only offering one special weapon and no heavies in the set. Even the then contemporary Marines got a flamer and ML. The Empire troops at the time (another set that stands up well today) got swords, sheilds and halbreds. So clearly GW could have given more value for the money but chose not to.
Third was the lack of 40k ness to them. No bionics, no chainsword, no power fist or power weapon. No Imperial insignias other than an eagle on the canteen. They really were just Rambo with lasguns.
They're not the worst plastics GW ever made (that honor goes to the plastic Goliaths) but they're really close. And largely it's due to design choices not sculpting.
And if you'd like to know more, I'll just leave this here.
They're not the worst plastics GW ever made (that honor goes to the plastic Goliaths) but they're really close. And largely it's due to design choices not sculpting.
I'd argue that the RT Ork box set is worse, with the Terminators from the first edition Space Hulk coming in second. I've painted both of those and the Catachans
I suspect the Perry's were ramrodded into doing the Catachans they way they did, can't place too much blame on them.
Goodwin will be there until the stars burn out, assuming GW is still around. He's firmly a company stooge, and I doubt very much he would be able to survive without the umbilicus.
Stooge? That sounds a bit accusatory. As far as I know, he's been promoted to head of plastics or some such, and I imagine he's pretty much up there with Blanche (well, just under) in terms of "company ranking". Besides, his concept art still feeds a huge amount of the designs that get produced.
Well, they do run their own really successful business anyway, perhaps the day job just became unnecessary or too time-consuming on top of all their other work?
If it means more releases for their own miniature lines, this is definitely a good thing!
I heard that their salary was around £90k, so you can see why they stayed as long as they did despite running a business alongside.
They did some amazing work when left to their own devices at GW, kits like the Mordheim militia were amazing and their work on the LotR line was just plain brilliant, without them it wouldn't have looked anywhere near as good.
It's a fairly interesting history. GW was using a plastics company via contract work, in the late 80's and early 90's. Then they bought out that company, integrated their equipment and staff, and make the owner the head of their plastics engineering division. Then when GW started switching to CAD only (instead of traditional 3-up), they forced their plastics guy into early retirement. A month after he left GW, he started Renedra. Whose first kit was a Perry kit, and who also do plastics for companies such as Mantic, Fireforge, Warlord, etc...
I never fail to be amazed at how many competitors GW actually creates rather than just allows. I didn't realise that Renadra was founded by an ex-GW staffer as well. I knew there was an overlap but assumed it was the other way round with GW buying part of Renadra.
Well, they do run their own really successful business anyway, perhaps the day job just became unnecessary or too time-consuming on top of all their other work?
If it means more releases for their own miniature lines, this is definitely a good thing!
I heard that their salary was around £90k, so you can see why they stayed as long as they did despite running a business alongside.
They did some amazing work when left to their own devices at GW, kits like the Mordheim militia were amazing and their work on the LotR line was just plain brilliant, without them it wouldn't have looked anywhere near as good.
Problems with GW execs I think.
I assume that most likely is that the Perry Miniatures range has become successful enough for them to work on it full time now instead of it being an evening/weekend hobby project, which has allowed them to move away from GW to what they've always wanted to do.
They're not the worst plastics GW ever made (that honor goes to the plastic Goliaths) but they're really close. And largely it's due to design choices not sculpting.
I never said that. In fact I think the plastic goliaths are great [in a so bad it's good way]
And it might seem like I'm beating a dead horse here, but I stand firm that CAD sculptors often skip or simply neglect to include musculature on organic models. CAD is great for vehicles and heavy armor like Terminators but without the traditional method of using a "core" or "doll" when sculpting a human or creature miniature, there is a very obvious spark missing from the final piece. And of course a hand sculptor would not cut big curves (ex: Nurgle Plaguebearers) and loopy lines into a master as that can easily destroy the believability of the final sculpt. Where as on a CAD piece, this is overlooked as a byproduct of using digital tools.
And YES! I really hope the Perry's expand upon their WoTR and HYW ranges, if you want to get into historicals they have some of the best and most affordable per model plastic box sets. I can just here the unit building sound effects from Age of Empires right now... Brrrrrrr-ooouRUP! *Halberd* ready
Hey guys I'm all for a debate over CAD vs GS but this thread is about the Perry's leaving GW not about sculpting types. So let's just stick to that or open up another thread in the discussions. All of this aside I'm excited but it can go either way. Their plastics are superb but the metals are some of the worst on the market casting wise. I spend three times longer just cleaning their metals then I would foundry which sucks because the sculpts are amazing.
And it might seem like I'm beating a dead horse here, but I stand firm that CAD sculptors often skip or simply neglect to include musculature on organic models. CAD is great for vehicles and heavy armor like Terminators but without the traditional method of using a "core" or "doll" when sculpting a human or creature miniature, there is a very obvious spark missing from the final piece. And of course a hand sculptor would not cut big curves (ex: Nurgle Plaguebearers) and loopy lines into a master as that can easily destroy the believability of the final sculpt. Where as on a CAD piece, this is overlooked as a byproduct of using digital tools.
And YES! I really hope the Perry's expand upon their WoTR and HYW ranges, if you want to get into historicals they have some of the best and most affordable per model plastic box sets. I can just here the unit building sound effects from Age of Empires right now... Brrrrrrr-ooouRUP! *Halberd* ready
Well i am not a historical or fantasy player, so if Perry 1 & 2, make no futuristic stuff anymore, I will sadly not buy anything from them.
And on the CAD design, CAD is a tool and the designs made by it, depends on the designers skill, maybe the problem is that most CAD designers only have experience in designing technical things so they need some anatomy classes to be up to speed.
Pacific wrote: That's surprising, normally people with an artistic bent aren't of that nature from my experience.
Can I ask how you know such a thing Weeble?
I've met the man. He is sleazy and willing to sacrifice his scruples for the company, and with apparent relish. Go read his testimony in the GW v CHS trial and imagine it with the gak-eating grin of an insurance salesmen. John Blanche testified for GW too, or at least was deposed. He did it grudgingly and and with about as much relish as his 7th edition videos. GW couldn't rely on his testimony, so they brought in Jes Gooodwin because he would travel to the US, swear an oath, and say anythingGW wanted him to say. He would be willing to weasel through his answers, be evasive, and do his best to be effusively charming the entire time. He did his very best to spin the for more candid testimony of Bob Naismith, whose testimony about Space Marines frankly trumps Jes Goodwin as Jes just executed what Bob had already designed before Jes started working for GW.
Imagine that for a minute. Jes knew he didn't design Space Marines. Jes knew it was Bob Naismith's work. Jes knew Bob had already testified. Jes probably read Bob's testimony. Jes must have known precisely why he was brought in to testify; to clean up and/or contradict what Bob had said. And he did it. He did it happily. He did it without a shred of guilt or embarrassment. He did it because GW told him to.
Anyone who will do something like that is, frankly, a company whore.
People may nick-pick and mention those catachans, but for dakka's sake, they did the green knight, one of my all time favourite minis. Their place in history is assured.
snurl wrote: Imagine if they made very high quality, yet affordable Fantasy miniatures?
Minion miniatures and maybe mantic are already making that.
Not even close on either account, in terms of either availability or quality!
I'd love for the Perry twins to expand into more fantastic territory, but I can see them just sticking to historical or just slowing down and retiring!
They're not the worst plastics GW ever made (that honor goes to the plastic Goliaths) but they're really close. And largely it's due to design choices not sculpting.
I never said that. In fact I think the plastic goliaths are great [in a so bad it's good way]
I see you have found someone that you can converse with on a level footing.
snurl wrote: Imagine if they made very high quality, yet affordable Fantasy miniatures?
Minion miniatures and maybe mantic are already making that.
Not sure about that. Minion hasn't gotten anything into production, or possibly even sculpted yet, so there's really nothing to be said for them yet. As for Mantic, it's still a very hit-and miss company. When compared to Perry, Mantic's fantasy human troops are truely sub-par, even awful I'd say. Also, Most Mantic kits -even the nice ones- are fairly limited in their options when compared to Perry or GW.
Fantasy from Perry would be great, but I do hope they'd stick with the mostly-true-28mm scale they've established so far to retain compatibility. Barring full kits, what I'd like to see is Perry do a fantasy sprue for their existing lines. Alternate helmets, shields and weapons that would give a bit of fantasy flavor to their already gorgeous (and fantasy useable) medieval troops.
I really like metal models, but if I hadn't scored such an amazing deal on metal miniatures, I'd definitely be using perry plastics for my someday-to-be-done KoW good-Human army.
Pacific wrote: That's surprising, normally people with an artistic bent aren't of that nature from my experience.
Can I ask how you know such a thing Weeble?
I've met the man. He is sleazy and willing to sacrifice his scruples for the company, and with apparent relish. Go read his testimony in the GW v CHS trial and imagine it with the gak-eating grin of an insurance salesmen. John Blanche testified for GW too, or at least was deposed. He did it grudgingly and and with about as much relish as his 7th edition videos. GW couldn't rely on his testimony, so they brought in Jes Gooodwin because he would travel to the US, swear an oath, and say anythingGW wanted him to say. He would be willing to weasel through his answers, be evasive, and do his best to be effusively charming the entire time. He did his very best to spin the for more candid testimony of Bob Naismith, whose testimony about Space Marines frankly trumps Jes Goodwin as Jes just executed what Bob had already designed before Jes started working for GW.
Imagine that for a minute. Jes knew he didn't design Space Marines. Jes knew it was Bob Naismith's work. Jes knew Bob had already testified. Jes probably read Bob's testimony. Jes must have known precisely why he was brought in to testify; to clean up and/or contradict what Bob had said. And he did it. He did it happily. He did it without a shred of guilt or embarrassment. He did it because GW told him to.
Anyone who will do something like that is, frankly, a company whore.
Wait so you've met him, but then you tell us a story about the CHS case? So you're really just basing your thoughts on his testimony as you apparently have had no interaction with the man.
Pacific wrote: That's surprising, normally people with an artistic bent aren't of that nature from my experience.
Can I ask how you know such a thing Weeble?
I've met the man. He is sleazy and willing to sacrifice his scruples for the company, and with apparent relish. Go read his testimony in the GW v CHS trial and imagine it with the gak-eating grin of an insurance salesmen. John Blanche testified for GW too, or at least was deposed. He did it grudgingly and and with about as much relish as his 7th edition videos. GW couldn't rely on his testimony, so they brought in Jes Gooodwin because he would travel to the US, swear an oath, and say anythingGW wanted him to say. He would be willing to weasel through his answers, be evasive, and do his best to be effusively charming the entire time. He did his very best to spin the for more candid testimony of Bob Naismith, whose testimony about Space Marines frankly trumps Jes Goodwin as Jes just executed what Bob had already designed before Jes started working for GW.
Imagine that for a minute. Jes knew he didn't design Space Marines. Jes knew it was Bob Naismith's work. Jes knew Bob had already testified. Jes probably read Bob's testimony. Jes must have known precisely why he was brought in to testify; to clean up and/or contradict what Bob had said. And he did it. He did it happily. He did it without a shred of guilt or embarrassment. He did it because GW told him to.
Anyone who will do something like that is, frankly, a company whore.
Wait so you've met him, but then you tell us a story about the CHS case? So you're really just basing your thoughts on his testimony as you apparently have had no interaction with the man.
Or he thought the trial story would be easier for people to picture than a meeting/series of meetings between two individuals, probably because of the legal and ethical ramifications of his actions at trial which everyone should understand. Weeble seems like a decent poster who doesn't fly off the handle at things, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt for this, but each to their own.
Pacific wrote: That's surprising, normally people with an artistic bent aren't of that nature from my experience.
Can I ask how you know such a thing Weeble?
I've met the man. He is sleazy and willing to sacrifice his scruples for the company, and with apparent relish. Go read his testimony in the GW v CHS trial and imagine it with the gak-eating grin of an insurance salesmen. John Blanche testified for GW too, or at least was deposed. He did it grudgingly and and with about as much relish as his 7th edition videos. GW couldn't rely on his testimony, so they brought in Jes Gooodwin because he would travel to the US, swear an oath, and say anythingGW wanted him to say. He would be willing to weasel through his answers, be evasive, and do his best to be effusively charming the entire time. He did his very best to spin the for more candid testimony of Bob Naismith, whose testimony about Space Marines frankly trumps Jes Goodwin as Jes just executed what Bob had already designed before Jes started working for GW.
Imagine that for a minute. Jes knew he didn't design Space Marines. Jes knew it was Bob Naismith's work. Jes knew Bob had already testified. Jes probably read Bob's testimony. Jes must have known precisely why he was brought in to testify; to clean up and/or contradict what Bob had said. And he did it. He did it happily. He did it without a shred of guilt or embarrassment. He did it because GW told him to.
Anyone who will do something like that is, frankly, a company whore.
Do you have links to the Naismith, Blanche and Goodwin testimonies? I'd love to read them, but wading through the court documents is not an insignificant task, especially if you're not used to doing it/have no idea how best to find something.
Also, Jes was working for GW from the start of the Citadel brand, since he was one of Asgard's sculptors under Ansell - so he predates Warhammer, let alone Rogue Trader or the Marines..
snurl wrote: Imagine if they made very high quality, yet affordable Fantasy miniatures?
Minion miniatures and maybe mantic are already making that.
Not even close on either account, in terms of either availability or quality!
I'd love for the Perry twins to expand into more fantastic territory, but I can see them just sticking to historical or just slowing down and retiring!
Matter of opinion, The Minion range is looking great and will be released in a couple of months. Meanwhile I can get Mantic at my LGSs and some of their miniatures are very good.
They're not the worst plastics GW ever made (that honor goes to the plastic Goliaths) but they're really close. And largely it's due to design choices not sculpting.
I never said that. In fact I think the plastic goliaths are great [in a so bad it's good way]
I see you have found someone that you can converse with on a level footing.
I have literally no idea what you are trying to say.
They're not the worst plastics GW ever made (that honor goes to the plastic Goliaths) but they're really close. And largely it's due to design choices not sculpting.
I never said that. In fact I think the plastic goliaths are great [in a so bad it's good way]
I see you have found someone that you can converse with on a level footing.
I have literally no idea what you are trying to say.
snurl wrote: Imagine if they made very high quality, yet affordable Fantasy miniatures?
Can't see that happening - based on a couple of things:
1) A likely non-compete clause. We heard about Priestly's one. No Sci-fi or Fantasy for X number of years.
2) They are major historical buffs. It's their passion, not Fantasy or not-Imperial Astra Guard Militarium. Warhammer paid the bills for many years, and also allowed them to sculpt Dark Ages Medieval/WotR figures and Renaissance Swiss as an aside. Blanche's art direction, yadda yadda - the Empire looks as it does primarily because of the Perrys.
Do you have links to the Naismith, Blanche and Goodwin testimonies? I'd love to read them, but wading through the court documents is not an insignificant task, especially if you're not used to doing it/have no idea how best to find something.
Also, Jes was working for GW from the start of the Citadel brand, since he was one of Asgard's sculptors under Ansell - so he predates Warhammer, let alone Rogue Trader or the Marines..
This is drifting mildly off-topic, so I'm just going to post this link to answer Az's question and provide the information for others who might be curious by this tangent. Seems to be a pretty well laid out index of the testimonies and you can locate things pretty easily with the browser/PDF find functions. Ironically linking back to Dakka but seems to have some additional details below as well:
Pacific wrote: That's surprising, normally people with an artistic bent aren't of that nature from my experience.
Can I ask how you know such a thing Weeble?
I've met the man. He is sleazy and willing to sacrifice his scruples for the company, and with apparent relish. Go read his testimony in the GW v CHS trial and imagine it with the gak-eating grin of an insurance salesmen. John Blanche testified for GW too, or at least was deposed. He did it grudgingly and and with about as much relish as his 7th edition videos. GW couldn't rely on his testimony, so they brought in Jes Gooodwin because he would travel to the US, swear an oath, and say anythingGW wanted him to say. He would be willing to weasel through his answers, be evasive, and do his best to be effusively charming the entire time. He did his very best to spin the for more candid testimony of Bob Naismith, whose testimony about Space Marines frankly trumps Jes Goodwin as Jes just executed what Bob had already designed before Jes started working for GW.
Imagine that for a minute. Jes knew he didn't design Space Marines. Jes knew it was Bob Naismith's work. Jes knew Bob had already testified. Jes probably read Bob's testimony. Jes must have known precisely why he was brought in to testify; to clean up and/or contradict what Bob had said. And he did it. He did it happily. He did it without a shred of guilt or embarrassment. He did it because GW told him to.
Anyone who will do something like that is, frankly, a company whore.
Wait so you've met him, but then you tell us a story about the CHS case? So you're really just basing your thoughts on his testimony as you apparently have had no interaction with the man.
Or he thought the trial story would be easier for people to picture than a meeting/series of meetings between two individuals, probably because of the legal and ethical ramifications of his actions at trial which everyone should understand. Weeble seems like a decent poster who doesn't fly off the handle at things, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt for this, but each to their own.
Well that would be an easy cop out. I think it's a bit BS to say, more or less, that "Jes is a witch" implying that it was something that happened personally and then say "oh go and read the testimony". I am currently reading the Testimony and I'm not really seeing anything that stands out as Jes being a dick. He just seems like he's not used to being in that situation and is trying his best to get his points across...
They're not the worst plastics GW ever made (that honor goes to the plastic Goliaths) but they're really close. And largely it's due to design choices not sculpting.
I never said that. In fact I think the plastic goliaths are great [in a so bad it's good way]
I see you have found someone that you can converse with on a level footing.
Pacific wrote: That's surprising, normally people with an artistic bent aren't of that nature from my experience.
Can I ask how you know such a thing Weeble?
I've met the man. He is sleazy and willing to sacrifice his scruples for the company, and with apparent relish. Go read his testimony in the GW v CHS trial and imagine it with the gak-eating grin of an insurance salesmen. John Blanche testified for GW too, or at least was deposed. He did it grudgingly and and with about as much relish as his 7th edition videos. GW couldn't rely on his testimony, so they brought in Jes Gooodwin because he would travel to the US, swear an oath, and say anythingGW wanted him to say. He would be willing to weasel through his answers, be evasive, and do his best to be effusively charming the entire time. He did his very best to spin the for more candid testimony of Bob Naismith, whose testimony about Space Marines frankly trumps Jes Goodwin as Jes just executed what Bob had already designed before Jes started working for GW.
Imagine that for a minute. Jes knew he didn't design Space Marines. Jes knew it was Bob Naismith's work. Jes knew Bob had already testified. Jes probably read Bob's testimony. Jes must have known precisely why he was brought in to testify; to clean up and/or contradict what Bob had said. And he did it. He did it happily. He did it without a shred of guilt or embarrassment. He did it because GW told him to.
Anyone who will do something like that is, frankly, a company whore.
Wait so you've met him, but then you tell us a story about the CHS case? So you're really just basing your thoughts on his testimony as you apparently have had no interaction with the man.
Or he thought the trial story would be easier for people to picture than a meeting/series of meetings between two individuals, probably because of the legal and ethical ramifications of his actions at trial which everyone should understand. Weeble seems like a decent poster who doesn't fly off the handle at things, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt for this, but each to their own.
Well that would be an easy cop out. I think it's a bit BS to say, more or less, that "Jes is a witch" implying that it was something that happened personally and then say "oh go and read the testimony". I am currently reading the Testimony and I'm not really seeing anything that stands out as Jes being a dick. He just seems like he's not used to being in that situation and is trying his best to get his points across...
His points which are, what again? Lies. Thats the one.
I either imagine, they did not adapt to CAD technology as they should have thus they got canned. Or they simply had a set contract for a few particular projects, mainly LOTR related.
His points which are, what again? Lies. Thats the one.
Woah. Way to make this thread even more OT.
I'll miss the Perrys, but they've surely served their time; a bigger question is where GW will go, post-Hobbit and LOTR, or whether they'll simply ramp up the 40k schedule even more.
sing your life wrote: [
Matter of opinion, The Minion range is looking great and will be released in a couple of months. Meanwhile I can get Mantic at my LGSs and some of their miniatures are very good.
If a line that hasn't even been sculpted yet and a line with "some" very good miniatures is enough for you, then that's fine, but that hardly indicates a wealth of non-GW options for plastic fantasy gaming kids. Also, neither of the lines you mention has a good quality plastic human kit.
xxvaderxx wrote: I either imagine, they did not adapt to CAD technology as they should have thus they got canned. Or they simply had a set contract for a few particular projects, mainly LOTR related.
Or, after 30odd years working for GW they both have taken semi retirement and just work on what they want to work on for their own company. Sounds like they parted well, and they have been working for GW for much longer than LoTR.
GW have lost some talent, but they have a deep pool to draw from and new sculptors constantly coming through. Good luck to them, and I hope they expand the range as I am very tempted to use some of the historic plastics for the basis of a guard force.
snurl wrote: Imagine if they made very high quality, yet affordable Fantasy miniatures?
Can't see that happening - based on a couple of things:
1) A likely non-compete clause. We heard about Priestly's one. No Sci-fi or Fantasy for X number of years.
2) They are major historical buffs. It's their passion, not Fantasy or not-Imperial Astra Guard Militarium. Warhammer paid the bills for many years, and also allowed them to sculpt Dark Ages Medieval/WotR figures and Renaissance Swiss as an aside. Blanche's art direction, yadda yadda - the Empire looks as it does primarily because of the Perrys.
Exactly. Anyone who knows anything about the Perrys will know that they will continue to do historical miniatures. It is their passion, I don't think they would take the route of fantasy/sci-fi stuff even if it were open to them.
I wouldn't be surprised if they eventually released a line of not-LotR plastics. They'd be suitable for fantasy gaming and who knows how long GW will be making figures for it now that the Hobbit is almost over.
I'm selling off my Brets, not because I dislike them, but I'd rather have an army of the Perry minis instead (even though I know the Brets are Perry minis,...).
snurl wrote: Imagine if they made very high quality, yet affordable Fantasy miniatures?
Can't see that happening - based on a couple of things:
1) A likely non-compete clause. We heard about Priestly's one. No Sci-fi or Fantasy for X number of years.
2) They are major historical buffs. It's their passion, not Fantasy or not-Imperial Astra Guard Militarium. Warhammer paid the bills for many years, and also allowed them to sculpt Dark Ages Medieval/WotR figures and Renaissance Swiss as an aside. Blanche's art direction, yadda yadda - the Empire looks as it does primarily because of the Perrys.
Except for Orks and Monsters and things, Ancient/Mediaeval/Renaissance figures are absolutely fine for Fantasy.
Basically i'm just waiting for them to release the Hunder Years War-Crecy miniatures. The WotR figures I'm using right now for my fantasy Lannister army are a bit too hi-tech for my taste and I would love to mix it up with older Medieval sprues so it won't look too WotR.
A cavalry based on Hunder Years War would look better for Bretonnians if ever than a cavalry based on WotR. Fireforge cavalry mixed with Perry WotR cavalry would also work.
By WoTR I assume you mean War of the Roses, and not War of the Ring?
Just thinking of the confusion with the Tool tip that generates..
I think the WoTR men at arms figures are fine for later 100yr war, after all there isn't really much of a gap between them in timescales. If you wanted to you could just miss out a few of the more ostentatious bits of armour from the sprue.
Sure you could probably add heads from the forthcoming Perry plastic Men at Arms kits also.
For Bretonnians I think having shields is a priority on how they look, and late medieval armor makes shields redundant. If I can find loose, cheap shields i'll add them to my cavalry, damn historical accuracy I'm making a fantasy army dammit.
Indeed, but it wasn't so much the armour that made blocking shields redundant, so much as the weaponry being used - attempting to block something like a poleaxe, bec or bill strike rather than deflect would often result in a broken or dislocated arm. Plate armour was at this point evolving into designs to deflect rather than absorb heavy blows. Look how the cuirass changed from the rather flat breastplates of the early HYW to the centre ridge of the ECW.
The majority of troops in the WotR were still just wearing padded jacks and brigandines similar to those worn from earlier periods. Froissart is a little off the mark in his paintings of everyone in plate.
Archery, and handguns were also becoming prevalent (recent finds at Bosworth for example turned up a surprising large amount of shot, indicating that firearms were far more common than first thought).
It was this mass archery that in particular discouraged cavalry use - a trick that came to the fore in the HYW.
With regards to shields, a very common item of infantry equipment for everyone from peasant to noble was the buckler (about the size of a dinner plate); used for parrying and deflection - the trick with that is to hit a blow away, not attempt to stop it. Or punch people in the face, slam the edge into their nose, and an assortment of other dirty tricks once you're in the crush.
winterdyne wrote: With regards to shields, a very common item of infantry equipment for everyone from peasant to noble was the buckler (about the size of a dinner plate); used for parrying and deflection - the trick with that is to hit a blow away, not attempt to stop it. Or punch people in the face, slam the edge into their nose, and an assortment of other dirty tricks once you're in the crush.
Very similar to how boxers or other Martial Artists will parry a strike if they can. Always better to dodge or parry than to block and absorb the blow. Even more so when weapons are involved.
Saw a cool video a while ago with some HEMA guys using the round viking shield both offensively and defensively. Especially the side of the shield which was something I hadn't considered.
winterdyne wrote: With regards to shields, a very common item of infantry equipment for everyone from peasant to noble was the buckler (about the size of a dinner plate); used for parrying and deflection - the trick with that is to hit a blow away, not attempt to stop it. Or punch people in the face, slam the edge into their nose, and an assortment of other dirty tricks once you're in the crush.
Very similar to how boxers or other Martial Artists will parry a strike if they can. Always better to dodge or parry than to block and absorb the blow. Even more so when weapons are involved.
Saw a cool video a while ago with some HEMA guys using the round viking shield both offensively and defensively. Especially the side of the shield which was something I hadn't considered.
Same way that you block with a tomahawk. You are, in effect, striking the incoming weapon and deflecting it away from the line of attack.
Hollywood has a lot to answer for in how people perceive medieval combat. It was NOT a fencing match. It was usually a dirty, scrappy brawl where you were as likely to get a backhand gauntlet to the face, pommel to the back of the head, or knee to the groin (actually very dangerous with the sharp up-pointing gothic style poleyns) as anything else. And that's before you factor in simply picking people up and throwing them around.
One thing I noticed, was as long as you stayed up, plate was great, but as soon as you get knocked over things go wrong - and not because it's heavy, usually more because something gets bent (locking up a knee or elbow) or a tie snaps - legs are normally laced to the belt of a harness with a leather thong, and when that goes, the whole leg assembly slips down - making it hard to walk, never mind fight. A properly fitted full harness from a decent armourer goes some way to stopping that but I'd bought mine piecemeal (as a lot of people at the time would have) and cobbled a suit out of various bits of 'salvaged' gear. Bits fell off now and then (which made for a good show, but was a bit of pain as far as fighting effectively went).
winterdyne wrote: Hollywood has a lot to answer for in how people perceive medieval combat. It was NOT a fencing match. It was usually a dirty, scrappy brawl where you were as likely to get a backhand gauntlet to the face, pommel to the back of the head, or knee to the groin (actually very dangerous with the sharp up-pointing gothic style poleyns) as anything else. And that's before you factor in simply picking people up and throwing them around.
One thing I noticed, was as long as you stayed up, plate was great, but as soon as you get knocked over things go wrong - and not because it's heavy, usually more because something gets bent (locking up a knee or elbow) or a tie snaps - legs are normally laced to the belt of a harness with a leather thong, and when that goes, the whole leg assembly slips down - making it hard to walk, never mind fight. A properly fitted full harness from a decent armourer goes some way to stopping that but I'd bought mine piecemeal (as a lot of people at the time would have) and cobbled a suit out of various bits of 'salvaged' gear. Bits fell off now and then (which made for a good show, but was a bit of pain as far as fighting effectively went).
There was apparently a decent amount of grappling in medieval weapon combat too.
heartserenade wrote: For Bretonnians I think having shields is a priority on how they look, and late medieval armor makes shields redundant. If I can find loose, cheap shields i'll add them to my cavalry, damn historical accuracy I'm making a fantasy army dammit.
And lol War of the Ring never crossed my mind.
Old GLory will sell you virtually any sheild they make (Except zulu shields) for $0.25 each. You have to go through the catalog and find the shield you like on a given unit, but it's probably worth it. IIRC, they have a variety of different shield shapes within their massive catalog.
http://www.oldgloryminiatures.com/proddetail.asp?prod=SHIELDS
snurl wrote: Imagine if they made very high quality, yet affordable Fantasy miniatures?
Can't see that happening - based on a couple of things:
1) A likely non-compete clause. We heard about Priestly's one. No Sci-fi or Fantasy for X number of years.
2) They are major historical buffs. It's their passion, not Fantasy or not-Imperial Astra Guard Militarium. Warhammer paid the bills for many years, and also allowed them to sculpt Dark Ages Medieval/WotR figures and Renaissance Swiss as an aside. Blanche's art direction, yadda yadda - the Empire looks as it does primarily because of the Perrys.
Except for Orks and Monsters and things, Ancient/Mediaeval/Renaissance figures are absolutely fine for Fantasy.
I don't disagree at all. I've got more than a few Historical models bought and in the paint queue ready for use in Fantasy gaming (amongst other things). But when people ask for a "Fantasy Line" from the Perrys, my guess is that they're not asking for Landsknechts or Wars of the Roses models, etc.
I don't disagree at all. I've got more than a few Historical models bought and in the paint queue ready for use in Fantasy gaming (amongst other things). But when people ask for a "Fantasy Line" from the Perrys, my guess is that they're not asking for Landsknechts or Wars of the Roses models, etc.
That's true. I wonder though....
If Perry put out some Landsknechts and put them up on Dakka without any historical reference, there'd probably be alot of folks whose first impulse would be to say "Oooh, Perry is copying GW empire" followed by alternate chorus's of "Boo Perry" and "I've gotta have them".
The line between fantasy and historical is thin in places.
I don't disagree at all. I've got more than a few Historical models bought and in the paint queue ready for use in Fantasy gaming (amongst other things). But when people ask for a "Fantasy Line" from the Perrys, my guess is that they're not asking for Landsknechts or Wars of the Roses models, etc.
That's true. I wonder though....
If Perry put out some Landsknechts and put them up on Dakka without any historical reference, there'd probably be alot of folks whose first impulse would be to say "Oooh, Perry is copying GW empire" followed by alternate chorus's of "Boo Perry" and "I've gotta have them".
The line between fantasy and historical is thin in places.
Thats true. If you put a model designed to be a Landsknecht model and one designed to be an empire I doubt I would be able to tell which is which. I would just guess the least chunky one was historical.
I would buy half a ton of Perry Landsknechts. No idea what I'd use them for -- I don't play Warhammer Fantasy -- but they'd have to be useful for something.
GW's business model is one of providing a complete package and in some ways relies on customer ignorance of the larger hobby. So it probably shouldn't be surprising that the typical GW gamer would think Empire is unique and original and that Perry Landsknecht's would just be copying GW.
GW has managed to convince a great many people that their fictional universes (which they've admitted in published works and on the stand in court is just a mish-mash of other people's ideas) are special and original.
frozenwastes wrote: GW has managed to convince a great many people that their fictional universes (which they've admitted in published works and on the stand in court is just a mish-mash of other people's ideas) are special and original.
Dear God, everything around us is a mish-mash of other people's ideas. It's how you put those ideas together that makes the difference. And like it or not, WFB and 40k do offer a lot of "special and original" takes on previous concepts.
frozenwastes wrote: GW has managed to convince a great many people that their fictional universes (which they've admitted in published works and on the stand in court is just a mish-mash of other people's ideas) are special and original.
Dear God, everything around us is a mish-mash of other people's ideas. It's how you put those ideas together that makes the difference. And like it or not, WFB and 40k do offer a lot of "special and original" takes on previous concepts.
I keep seeing that asserted, but then when examples are to be given, they end up being very derivative, often with direct analogues to past creations.
I'm totally okay with everything being the result of derivation and mash up. People just need to be honest that's what they're doing and certainly not sue people over ideas you can't own. GW had their chance to show just how original, special and unique their products were in the CHS case and they failed to shut CHS down and the case is still mired in appeals and negotiations. An utter failure that lead to GW's in house lawyer no longer working for them.
Ian Sturrock wrote: I would buy half a ton of Perry Landsknechts. No idea what I'd use them for -- I don't play Warhammer Fantasy -- but they'd have to be useful for something.
Pro Gloria have been working on with Renedra on plastic Landsknechts for a long time - looks like they'll be running a kickstarter in the autumn, but a lot of the work is done:
Definitely on the cards.... Agincourt men at arms are in progress...
I mean, I know what the Perrys look like, but that just popped into my head...
heartserenade wrote: For Bretonnians I think having shields is a priority on how they look, and late medieval armor makes shields redundant. If I can find loose, cheap shields i'll add them to my cavalry, damn historical accuracy I'm making a fantasy army dammit.
I don't disagree at all. I've got more than a few Historical models bought and in the paint queue ready for use in Fantasy gaming (amongst other things). But when people ask for a "Fantasy Line" from the Perrys, my guess is that they're not asking for Landsknechts or Wars of the Roses models, etc.
That's true. I wonder though....
If Perry put out some Landsknechts and put them up on Dakka without any historical reference, there'd probably be alot of folks whose first impulse would be to say "Oooh, Perry is copying GW empire" followed by alternate chorus's of "Boo Perry" and "I've gotta have them".
The line between fantasy and historical is thin in places.
(A man can dream...)
