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Post by: Moktor
So I was having a discussion with my local store owner, who firmly believes GW does it right by stifling online sales and limiting discounts with a heavy hand so that he can stay in business. Obviously, his perspective is that online retailers don't have his overhead since "none of them" run stores with play space, and that GW's "price protection" policies keep him competitive. He specifically named Privateer as a company that doesn't care about him because they don't give out freebies as GW does, and doesn't stop online retailers from offering large discounts on their products.
There is obviously some truth here; game stores that use space for playing games rather than selling games have a much greater overhead than online discount companies. This store, like most others, make their money on Magic. GW is his second most profitable product line, meaning that he does strongly rely on them to keep the lights on. Of course, he sells at MSRP and keeps very specific stock on the shelves to get his GW freebies every year.
Obviously, the issues with GW run far deeper than their pricing and business practices, and it makes me wonder how the company is going to turn this around. We have just had a flood of players start selling their 40k for "another" tabletop wargame, and it seems that while retailers may get advantages for selling GW, the players are getting sick of them... all the kick backs in the world do you nothing if people don't want to buy the product anymore.
This isn't meant to be a "the sky is falling" post about the imminent doom of GW, they are still profitable for now and are by no means "sunk," but I still believe that this period in GW history differs greatly if only because they don't seem to recognize competition and their pricing model issues as far as the players are concerned.
We have all heard how much the players hate some of these practices, but I will admit it was interesting to hear a seller's perspective.
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Post by: SilverMK2
A number of "online" stores have physical stores with gaming space. Before they went belly up, Maelstrom Games, perhaps the largest international retailer of GW products outside of GW themselves, had a huge physical store, with massive gaming hall.
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Post by: Herzlos
Exactly - and both of the big UK ones - Wayland and Darksphere have large gaming areas.
In any case the approach is wrong - if you want to encourage gaming spaces, provide a deeper discount to resellers who have public gaming spaces.
The only reason you'd ban online ordering completely would be to drive customers that require online purchasing (which is a lot in a sparsely populated country) to your own site.
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Post by: Moktor
I mentioned that, he called me out as wrong. I didn't research it specifically so I placed "none of them" in quotes. I'm a fan of several legit gaming shops that sell online at deep discounts, and they often post pics in their store with the mountains of product they sell. They obviously go for volume, but my local owner said they can't make money that way... despite the fact that I have worked in other industries that did the same thing. Volume can make up for discounts with enough volume 
So yeah, I know it works, but some retailers obviously believe that they get more bang for their buck at MSRP.
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Post by: Wayniac
Having never seen a local retailer offer anything below MSRP, I can agree with that. However in an expensive hobby that just means I'm more inclined to buy at a discount online and only buy small things at the FLGS, because the discount is too good to pass up especially on large purchases where it can easily be an extra kit.
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Post by: Saldiven
 Moktor wrote:I mentioned that, he called me out as wrong. I didn't research it specifically so I placed "none of them" in quotes. I'm a fan of several legit gaming shops that sell online at deep discounts, and they often post pics in their store with the mountains of product they sell. They obviously go for volume, but my local owner said they can't make money that way... despite the fact that I have worked in other industries that did the same thing. Volume can make up for discounts with enough volume
So yeah, I know it works, but some retailers obviously believe that they get more bang for their buck at MSRP.
If you're selling at or near cost, no amount of volume will make up the difference. At best, it can be a loss leader to improve sales of other, more profitable products.
The biggest issue with GW's practices is the simultaneous crackdown on online retail and limitation on the amount of product provided to FLGS if there is a nearby GW store.
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Post by: the_Armyman
B&M retailers and online stores can coexist. I don't think GWs scheme of not allowing online shopping carts is the best way of going about things, but 1) that's not something unique to GW and 2) I'm honestly not sure how much of an impact it has on helping B&Ms or GW's own online store to state an informed opinion 
I don't envy the work and heartache it takes to run a hobby and gaming store, but they simply have to play to their advantages, diversify their revenue streams, and make smart business decisions. No, they cannot compete on prices with an online retailer, but I also can't hangout at a .com, browse and actually see minis, or play on tables with terrain.
B&Ms are destinations, .coms are convenience stores.
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Post by: Moktor
I think the question for a player is whether you are using a B&M store to play at; then you have to ask whether the passed up savings are going to good use for the play space that you are using. Nothing is free, as we all know.
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Post by: MeanGreenStompa
I'd like to hear Mikhaila's commentary on this one...
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Post by: Wayniac
Moktor wrote:I think the question for a player is whether you are using a B&M store to play at; then you have to ask whether the passed up savings are going to good use for the play space that you are using. Nothing is , as we all know.
Honestly for me, the savings trump all. Doubly so for 40k where I would never pay full retail for anything. With Warmachine the temptation to get a 30% discount online and have not only the item virtually guaranteed in stock but get it within a week generally trumps the fact that most game stores here don't carry a large selection of PP products and when they order it, it can take 2 weeks or more if the item is even in stock, and they often won't know (I once ordered a single model and was waiting over 3 weeks with no idea if it was coming or not until I said screw it and ordered it online, got it within 2 days).
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Post by: Moktor
WayneTheGame wrote: Moktor wrote:I think the question for a player is whether you are using a B&M store to play at; then you have to ask whether the passed up savings are going to good use for the play space that you are using. Nothing is , as we all know.
Honestly for me, the savings trump all. Doubly so for 40k where I would never pay full retail for anything. With Warmachine the temptation to get a 30% discount online and have not only the item virtually guaranteed in stock but get it within a week generally trumps the fact that most game stores here don't carry a large selection of PP products and when they order it, it can take 2 weeks or more if the item is even in stock, and they often won't know (I once ordered a single model and was waiting over 3 weeks with no idea if it was coming or not until I said screw it and ordered it online, got it within 2 days).
That is really a big deal, and I agree for all those reasons. I feel obligated to support my local shop, but the truth is he can't or won't maintain stock (just battle boxes for PP, which are selling like crazy and basic stock for GW) and special orders take forever... oh, and I get to pay full price.
It comes down to "how bad do we need the store in this environment?" It is a serious question that might get me flamed, but we all think it. Several of my gaming friends have tables at their houses, and while I like the local tournaments it is an uphill battle and standard B&M stores are facing extinction. Would we maybe be better off having a game "store" that charges for use? How much would it take to operate such a thing? My feeling is that it would be a net loss for players.
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Post by: Azreal13
Moktor wrote:
That is really a big deal, and I agree for all those reasons. I feel obligated to support my local shop, but the truth is he can't or won't maintain stock (just battle boxes for PP, which are selling like crazy and basic stock for GW) and special orders take forever... oh, and I get to pay full price.
Whether it is can't or won't, that phrase in itself speaks to his competence, and should inform what you were outlining he was saying in your first post.
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Post by: xxvaderxx
Ah yes, lets fight progress, that has always worked so well through out history...
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Post by: kb305
the product is not worth MSRP, not even in USA prices.
In canada and australia the MSRP is a bad joke
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Post by: jonolikespie
http://registers.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/1178319/fromItemId/776499/display/submission
The views expressed here by Australian gaming stores, both online and B&M, seem to suggest that GWs business practices are AT BEST blatantly anti competitive.
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Post by: Compel
It seems to me that the Wizkids / Attack Wing method of 'Organised Play' (admittedly, without the blatant one-up-manship of games balance) is probably the best way of keeping stores relevant.
In other words, a games company should stop just thinking about selling products to store but working to sell experiences to stores, that you just can't find online. - Something that gives a store a tangible need to be a store, not just a shopping cart.
If anything, that is the complete inverse of Games Workshops method.
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Post by: Peregrine
Your local store owner is an idiot. The phrase "great for game stores" can not be applied to a company that is moving more and more of its products to direct-only in an effort to maximize the share of sales going through its own stores at the expense of independent stores.
Plus, your local store owner isn't making money off 40k because of GW's business practices, he's making money off 40k because the local 40k community is giving him charity donations. If he's selling at full retail price the only reason anyone is buying from him is because they want to donate money to the person who provides their gaming space.
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Post by: insaniak
Moktor wrote:So I was having a discussion with my local store owner, who firmly believes GW does it right by stifling online sales and limiting discounts with a heavy hand so that he can stay in business.
If the only way you can stay in business is through your suppliers stifling competition, something is wrong.
Obviously, his perspective is that online retailers don't have his overhead since "none of them" run stores with play space,...
While this is possibly more or less true within the US due to their 'no shopping carts' policy meaning that online sellers have to source their product from someone other than GW (and so will be unlikely to also have a store), it's certainly not the case in the rest of the world. As others have pointed out, the largest online sellers in the UK have physical stores. Its the same story here in OZ... there are a few online-only sellers, but the majority of them (again, including the largest) have physical stores.
In that environment, all that GW's US policy regarding online sales does is prevent him from being able to compete with online sellers.
... and that GW's "price protection" policies keep him competitive.
You know what else could keep him competitive?
Competitive pricing.
He specifically named Privateer as a company that doesn't care about him because they don't give out freebies as GW does, and doesn't stop online retailers from offering large discounts on their products.
As opposed to GW's policy of not telling him about releases until 3 minutes before they ship, not supplying orders in favour of supplying their own webstore, removing his ability to stock core product as more and more codes go direct-only, and steadily eroding his customer base with policies seemingly designed specifically to annoy the hobby veterans?
Yeah, GW has his back.
There is obviously some truth here; game stores that use space for playing games rather than selling games have a much greater overhead than online discount companies.
Yes, they do. They do so, though, in order to offer an experience that those other businesses can't.
If you can't do that, or it doesn't wind up being profitable, then you need to adapt your business strategy, not expect your suppliers to give you preferential treatment because you and they both refuse to move into the 21st century.
Of course, he sells at MSRP and keeps very specific stock on the shelves to get his GW freebies every year.
I would be curious to know whether the inventory costs of doing that actually balance out the value of the freebies that he gets as a result...
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Post by: Adam LongWalker
 Peregrine wrote:Your local store owner is an idiot. The phrase "great for game stores" can not be applied to a company that is moving more and more of its products to direct-only in an effort to maximize the share of sales going through its own stores at the expense of independent stores.
Plus, your local store owner isn't making money off 40k because of GW's business practices, he's making money off 40k because the local 40k community is giving him charity donations. If he's selling at full retail price the only reason anyone is buying from him is because they want to donate money to the person who provides their gaming space.
Got to agree with you on this one. I mean come on.... I reckon those mushroom heads ddi not read on how bad the most recent GW financial report actually was.
Their business model is not working. But Fantasy Flight Games certainly is...
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Post by: Kilkrazy
I worked in a games shop in the mid-1980s, long before the internet became mainstream. We used to do a fair bit of trade via mail order as well as over the counter. In those days there were a lot more boxed wargames from the USA -- Avalon Hill, for example -- that were difficult for private buyers to order and import directly. Credit cards were still a new thing in those days so lots of people simply could not do international payments. Trader accounts could do it more efficiently and there was a demand in the market to satisfy.
There is a financial disadvantage in using high street premises rather than an edge of town warehouse. As said by others, a good retailer will turn his location into an advantage by making his shop a value-added destination rather than just a payment and collection point. (Why bother when these days you can get stuff delivered from Amazon to Collect+ pick-up points overnight?)
How to do that is another thing. I would have to sit down for a good long think about it, however I am not a retailer so I will spend my time on something else.
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Post by: Skinnereal
I thought Wayland Games and other online-only sites were being forced to have a B&M store to be able to order GW stock.
It was in the N&R section last year, IIRC.
So a B&M store complaining about online-only sellers isn't staying up-to-date.
Here it is:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/535821.page
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Post by: Jehan-reznor
Saldiven wrote: Moktor wrote:I mentioned that, he called me out as wrong. I didn't research it specifically so I placed "none of them" in quotes. I'm a fan of several legit gaming shops that sell online at deep discounts, and they often post pics in their store with the mountains of product they sell. They obviously go for volume, but my local owner said they can't make money that way... despite the fact that I have worked in other industries that did the same thing. Volume can make up for discounts with enough volume
So yeah, I know it works, but some retailers obviously believe that they get more bang for their buck at MSRP.
If you're selling at or near cost, no amount of volume will make up the difference. At best, it can be a loss leader to improve sales of other, more profitable products.
The biggest issue with GW's practices is the simultaneous crackdown on online retail and limitation on the amount of product provided to FLGS if there is a nearby GW store.
Uhm, what? Costco must doing something wrong then, normally when a store buys huge amounts of product they get volume discount.
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Post by: Yonan
 jonolikespie wrote:http://registers.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/1178319/fromItemId/776499/display/submission
The views expressed here by Australian gaming stores, both online and B&M, seem to suggest that GWs business practices are AT BEST blatantly anti competitive.
I read the mighty ape submission, that guy was switched on. Well worth a read for insight into GWs "excellent business practices".
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Post by: Moktor
So in other words, I wasn't completely crazy when I thought he was doing it wrong. He is pretty firmly entrenched in his ways, but none of it made sense. He is a card guy, though, and thinks in terms of card sales. We lost our latest 40k TO and now he runs that... but doesn't actually know the game. It has been pretty brutal. This makes for an interesting discussion, but ultimately he has to make his own business decisions. I am interested to see what he does if PP sales pass GW here.
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Post by: Herzlos
 Jehan-reznor wrote:Saldiven wrote: Moktor wrote:I mentioned that, he called me out as wrong. I didn't research it specifically so I placed "none of them" in quotes. I'm a fan of several legit gaming shops that sell online at deep discounts, and they often post pics in their store with the mountains of product they sell. They obviously go for volume, but my local owner said they can't make money that way... despite the fact that I have worked in other industries that did the same thing. Volume can make up for discounts with enough volume
So yeah, I know it works, but some retailers obviously believe that they get more bang for their buck at MSRP.
If you're selling at or near cost, no amount of volume will make up the difference. At best, it can be a loss leader to improve sales of other, more profitable products.
The biggest issue with GW's practices is the simultaneous crackdown on online retail and limitation on the amount of product provided to FLGS if there is a nearby GW store.
Uhm, what? Costco must doing something wrong then, normally when a store buys huge amounts of product they get volume discount.
They do, and you can get by comfortably on 10% profit on millions of dollars a day. Selling miniatures is in a different scale where you can't just ramp up volume to make money.
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Post by: FenrisianStuart21
I think that most B&M have the same problem of survivability trying to survive under a "miniatures first" approach. Regardless of what GW is doing to the online retailers.
Our local store is firmly a comic book store. Then its a card shop. Thirdly, it's a miniatures. He holds very limited stock in GW miniatures, but has a ballooned out section of Flames of War, Heroclix, PP, Bolt Action. He also has about 14 Full sized miniatures tables.
By making all of his money off of cards and comics, anything he makes off of mini's is a nice bonus. He provides ample amount of space, keeps a decent stock of a lot of popular games (Just in case someone has to have it that day) and it's working. Business is booming. You go in any day and people are flooding through the doors. Game nights are always packed and playing.
This to me shows that even though it isn't a miniatures first approach, the B&M is very much alive and well and doesn't really even need to compete with online only retailers.
My two cents.
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Post by: the_Armyman
 FenrisianStuart21 wrote:I think that most B&M have the same problem of survivability trying to survive under a "miniatures first" approach. Regardless of what GW is doing to the online retailers.
I completely agree. If you build your business on only one or two products or manufacturers, you've set yourself up for failure. Some guys go into business because they know one thing really well--comics, wargaming, roleplaying, or sports cards--then find themselves in trouble when the market changes or a manufacturer goes belly up.
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Post by: privateer4hire
FenrisianStuart21 wrote:...You go in any day and people are flooding through the doors. Game nights are always packed and playing.
...
Quick question: on those packed play nights with floods of people are people actually buying stuff (and a lot)? Hopefully, that's the case.
One of the big problems that B&Ms face is people buying their cards and minis at X% off online and then using the store as their personal play venue. To make matters worse, folks who do that are really good at steering other customers toward Joe's Online Discount Gaming site and dissuading them from buying local.
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Post by: Dullspork
It's always interesting when these threads pop up. I really find the comments interesting. BTW - I own a game store.
Let's talk about the original question: Are GW's business practices great for game stores?
In a general sense, it's a mixed bag. There's some practices that I find frustrating and unhelpful. Their current communications strategy is particularly vexing. As somebody who spent nearly a decade working in marketing and public relations their practices in this area have me banging my head against the wall on a regular basis. They are essentially FORCING me to read all of the rumors I can find to stay up to date. How does this make any sense at all? But I digress.
Price protection. Online sales. That's really want you wanted to know about. Is it great? It doesn't suck. In fact, yeah. I think it's pretty nice. It helps offset some of the frustration that comes with dealing with GW. The issue of price is something that publishers, retailers and consumers are never really going to see eye-to-eye on. If consumers are complaining about the price but still buying the product then retailers and publishers are essentially content. The higher the price that you pay the more of a return that we're seeing. Once people start dropping out of the hobby then it's time to reconsider the price issue.
In any case, there's certainly plenty of games that we sell that have no such protections on and we still do okay with them. Would you believe that our single best-selling game is a game that is nominally available online online - and yet we still sell a ton of them at a considerable markup from the online price? This is true even though we will tell people that they are available cheaper online. Sometimes people just can't be bothered or need to have it now or... you might want to sit down for this as it's likely to blow your mind... they don't shop online at all.
I believe that in-store gaming in an important value-add that B&M stores offer (or SHOULD offer) and many people value that. Loyalty to a game store is something that should not be dismissed. Many times when I see these threads pop up it's because somebody is unhappy with their local store for one reason or another. This appears to be the case in this thread as well. Dissatisfaction leads to thoughts about why it's worth bothering to pay the premium at that store at all. Happy gamers rarely have these complaints. I don't shop at places that make me unhappy either.
The most interesting comments are the ones that proclaim the impending demise of the game store. I'm not sure if those comments come from people who simply don't have a local game store or just choose not to shop at the ones available to them, but I can assure you that this is just not the case. Gamestorepocalypse is not upon us.
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Post by: insaniak
 Yonan wrote: jonolikespie wrote:http://registers.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/1178319/fromItemId/776499/display/submission
The views expressed here by Australian gaming stores, both online and B&M, seem to suggest that GWs business practices are AT BEST blatantly anti competitive.
I read the mighty ape submission, that guy was switched on. Well worth a read for insight into GWs "excellent business practices".
The submission from Warpuppy was also very good.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Moktor wrote: We lost our latest 40k TO and now he runs that... but doesn't actually know the game.
That's his next problem then.
Know the product you are selling. Particularly important with miniatures games, as your knowledge of the game is going to directly affect how you order product... something that is getting more critical as GW moves more and more lines to direct-only.
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Post by: RatBot
 Dullspork wrote:
I believe that in-store gaming in an important value-add that B&M stores offer (or SHOULD offer) and many people value that. Loyalty to a game store is something that should not be dismissed.
This. I'll happily pay a couple of bucks above online discount prices to support my FLGS, since my FLGS also provides me with space, tables, and terrain I can use for free (or, if you prefer, the cost of using those is bundled into the stuff I buy). In fact, if I want something obscure and/or not typically carried by my FLGS, my first step is not to immediately buy it online, but to ask if the store can order it for me (which they usually can). It also helps that the staff are good people. If, however, the store didn't have gaming tables or anything and was literally just a place to buy things and then I was expected to play at home or a friends' house, and/or the staff were all a bunch of slack-jawed donkey-caves, well, then I'd be buying online.
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Post by: rich1231
Its really difficult to type a long reply here without giving all sorts away.
GW do all sorts of stuff and claim to be protecting Indy retail stores. They detest Indy stores, but they are an evil they have to endure. They wish they didn't have to deal with any of them but the lure of cash is too high. Their trade terms are all about driving sales to their own channel.
As an internet retailer we don't have low operating costs, despite what might be assumed. It is expensive to do things right. We also have a bricks and mortar presence and one we intend to grow but we are primarily an internet business. There will always be customers that will only buy on-line, there will be those that only buy in store and any number of those who have a huge variety of preferences either way. There is room for the Internet and physical stores.
Competition is good and a clear sign of competition is price if competition is strong then prices would be lower. If there is little competition then prices would be high.
Funny how discounters are the ones being attacked in trade terms changes continuously. Funny that. Driving prices higher, segmenting market places, placing limitations on supply; do they look like signs of a competitive market functioning correctly or do they smell like something that should be addressed?
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Post by: Zygrot24
rich1231 wrote:Competition is good and a clear sign of competition is price if competition is strong then prices would be lower. If there is little competition then prices would be high.
Funny how discounters are the ones being attacked in trade terms changes continuously. Funny that. Driving prices higher, segmenting market places, placing limitations on supply; do they look like signs of a competitive market functioning correctly or do they smell like something that should be addressed?
For me, that is the easiest to understand summation of all the issues people have with GW trade terms and so much else with GW.
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Post by: Yonan
It was a real classy move of GWs breaking up the relationship betwen Beasts of War and Wayland Games too, if I recall that correctly. But online discounters like Wayland offer nothing to the hobby.
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Post by: MWHistorian
I only buy at my local FLGS. Sure, I could find it cheaper, but I use their tables and enjoy the community there. I've been all over and it's by far my favorite place. They have an on-line store, "Spiky Bits," and the FLGS is "FTW Games." Fantastic place. At least eight gaming tables and even more for MTG. (which I don't play.)
If they don't have something, I order it through them. They have a membership where you can build up store credit and buy/sell used stuff. Love it.
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Post by: insaniak
Yonan wrote: But online discounters like Wayland offer nothing to the hobby.
This claim from GW is probably one of the biggest signs that they are totally out of touch with the community.
Aside from the fact that online stores grow the hobby by allowing people with no other access to games to actually buy them in the first place, there are any number of those 'freeloading' online businesses that stepped into the gap left by GW withdrawing their support for the tournament scene. There's a locally-run online business who provides fairly significant prize support to just about every single local tournament, and from looking around here and overseas, there are any number of other online businesses doing similar. Hell, when the inaugural (and sadly only) Auscon convention was run here in Brisbane a few years back, one of those internet 'freeloaders' actually approached the organisers with an offer to fund the whole damn shebang.
So claiming that these guys do nothing for the hobby is just ludicrous.
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Post by: Peregrine
Yonan wrote:But online discounters like Wayland offer nothing to the hobby.
Sure they do, they offer GW products as cheaply as possible. If you play at home or in a private club instead of a store that's a huge benefit, and the fact that some random FLGS goes out of business is irrelevant to you.
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Post by: Pacific
Yonan wrote:It was a real classy move of GWs breaking up the relationship betwen Beasts of War and Wayland Games too, if I recall that correctly. But online discounters like Wayland offer nothing to the hobby.
They are not just an online retailer though Yonan? I've attended several of their events and product launches - they're always well laid out, presented, with a good turn-out, and I'm going to be attending more.
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Post by: Yonan
Yeah they're not just online, but that doesn't stop them copping flak for having a great online storefront.
I hope the sarcasm was evident in my post Peregrine, it can be hard to tell sometimes hehe. You described me exactly by the way - I don't play at stores, I play at home(s) and clubs, so go for the cheapest possible from online discounters around the world.
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Post by: Davor
 RatBot wrote: Dullspork wrote:
I believe that in-store gaming in an important value-add that B&M stores offer (or SHOULD offer) and many people value that. Loyalty to a game store is something that should not be dismissed.
This. I'll happily pay a couple of bucks above online discount prices to support my FLGS, since my FLGS also provides me with space, tables, and terrain I can use for free (or, if you prefer, the cost of using those is bundled into the stuff I buy). In fact, if I want something obscure and/or not typically carried by my FLGS, my first step is not to immediately buy it online, but to ask if the store can order it for me (which they usually can). It also helps that the staff are good people. If, however, the store didn't have gaming tables or anything and was literally just a place to buy things and then I was expected to play at home or a friends' house, and/or the staff were all a bunch of slack-jawed donkey-caves, well, then I'd be buying online.
That's what I do. I buy from the store. They give so much more service than anything online can. They have picked up a few things that they didn't sell, but was able to order it for me at a fair price. While I may pay a few bucks more for something than online stores, it's always nice to know, I can always have one place to shop at. Call me old fashion, always nice to buy now, get now and not worry about if it will be delivered in the mail or not.
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Post by: rich1231
There is no moral or ethical obligation for anyone to buy anything from anywhere. Customers should be able to make the choice on any criteria that they themselves wish, without having to justify it anywhere to anyone else.
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Post by: Dullspork
rich1231 wrote:There is no moral or ethical obligation for anyone to buy anything from anywhere. Customers should be able to make the choice on any criteria that they themselves wish, without having to justify it anywhere to anyone else.
Who said there was?
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Post by: insaniak
It's a general theme in threads discussing stores and the associated issues with running them... Some people feel that if a store offers free gaming space, you're morally obliged to spend money there if you make use of that free service.
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Post by: TheAuldGrump
 insaniak wrote:It's a general theme in threads discussing stores and the associated issues with running them... Some people feel that if a store offers free gaming space, you're morally obliged to spend money there if you make use of that free service.
And it likely is a good thing to do - at least if you want the store to stay around.
But trying to dictate that others do what you feel should be done... is problematic at best.
So, if I play at a store then I will buy at the store - most likely something every trip, even if it is only a pot of paint.
But I am not going to say that you must do the same, just that it would be a nice thing to do.
The Auld Grump
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Post by: Moktor
insaniak wrote:It's a general theme in threads discussing stores and the associated issues with running them... Some people feel that if a store offers free gaming space, you're morally obliged to spend money there if you make use of that free service.
This can be problematic, though. If gamers aren't loyal to a store the store starts to face other options. Do they charge for game space? Do they eliminate space? My local owner says he can make a lot more money by eliminating the space and stocking more games. I don't believe this. The MTG players will go to the only other store in town and the mini players will probably disband or at the very least, form a club and play at the local college. All the while, they will move exclusively to online discount stores and build tables for $50 a piece and call it a day.
Stores need space, players need to support their stores to maintain that space. I know I am not a charity and if I had a store I wouldn't do it for a loss anymore than my local owner would.
My OP was mostly focused on whether GW's retailer practices are actually as good as my owner believes, and whether he could also offer discounts and entive people to buy more. There are two things that tend to get my wallet out... a perceived deal and availability. I know I am not the only impulse buyer out here, and even if I didn't get the 20-30% off that I can often get online, if I got say, 10% regularly and things were on the shelves I would be more likely to spend MORE. As it is, I look at a box of Dire Avengers and sigh at paying $7 per model. I mean, srsly.
There is really no easy answer, but it hit me as an interesting discussion because online discounts are a thing, and so is game store loyalty for those who use the facilities and want to continue doing so.
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Post by: insaniak
Moktor wrote:This can be problematic, though. If gamers aren't loyal to a store the store starts to face other options.
Indeed they do. But, frankly, that's the store's problem, not the players'.
Providing gaming space is a marketing tool, just like advertising, or giving out coupons for freebies. If that marketing investment doesn't pay off, then absolutely it is up to the store to find a more cost-effective way to entice customers to open their wallets.
But making use of gaming space provided for no charge no more obliges you to support the business than, say, Starbucks giving you a voucher for a free coffee obliges you to return later and pay for another, or watching a Toys'r'Us ad on TV obliges you to then go into the store and buy something.
If you value the service enough to spend money there, then good for you. But that's your choice, not a moral requirement.
32159
Post by: jonolikespie
Online discounts are a thing, and a brick and mortar store does have to compete with them.
That's the key word though, compete.
Offering gaming space is already a good incentive to shop there. Having a smaller discount than online but still a discount is another. Friendly, knowledgable staff. Good community support. There are tons of things they can do to compete.
What your FLGS is talking about is shutting down competition through borderline legal means rather than trying to simply beat them. That is always bad for us, the customers.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also if your owner thinks he can make more money by removing gaming space then honestly I'd just say he is a bad business man or doesn't understand his market.
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Post by: insaniak
jonolikespie wrote:Online discounts are a thing, and a brick and mortar store does have to compete with them.
That's the key word though, compete.
Offering gaming space is already a good incentive to shop there. Having a smaller discount than online but still a discount is another. Friendly, knowledgable staff. Good community support. There are tons of things they can do to compete.
Selling online would be another, but for some reason GW US seems to think that allowing trade accounts to compete with those businesses that have found ways around the 'no shopping carts' and regional sales rules would be a bad thing...
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Post by: -Loki-
Moktor wrote: insaniak wrote:It's a general theme in threads discussing stores and the associated issues with running them... Some people feel that if a store offers free gaming space, you're morally obliged to spend money there if you make use of that free service.
This can be problematic, though. If gamers aren't loyal to a store the store starts to face other options. Do they charge for game space? Do they eliminate space? My local owner says he can make a lot more money by eliminating the space and stocking more games. I don't believe this. The MTG players will go to the only other store in town and the mini players will probably disband or at the very least, form a club and play at the local college. All the while, they will move exclusively to online discount stores and build tables for $50 a piece and call it a day.
Stores need space, players need to support their stores to maintain that space. I know I am not a charity and if I had a store I wouldn't do it for a loss anymore than my local owner would.
My OP was mostly focused on whether GW's retailer practices are actually as good as my owner believes, and whether he could also offer discounts and entive people to buy more. There are two things that tend to get my wallet out... a perceived deal and availability. I know I am not the only impulse buyer out here, and even if I didn't get the 20-30% off that I can often get online, if I got say, 10% regularly and things were on the shelves I would be more likely to spend MORE. As it is, I look at a box of Dire Avengers and sigh at paying $7 per model. I mean, srsly.
There is really no easy answer, but it hit me as an interesting discussion because online discounts are a thing, and so is game store loyalty for those who use the facilities and want to continue doing so.
If gamers aren't loyal to a store, there's going to be a reason. Gamers won't spurn a store for no reason.
Maybe they don't stock their preferred game enough. Maybe they don't have open gaming days for that game on days when they're free. Maybe they aren't pricing competitively (not only to online stores, but to other local stores too). Maybe there are clubs around that are better suited to the gaming. Maybe they don't like the community the store fosters.
If a store is losing customers, instead of whining online and/or to remaining customers about the evils of online stores, they should be asking customers (particularly lost customers if they see them again) why they left, and figure out how to get them back.
32159
Post by: jonolikespie
 -Loki- wrote:
If gamers aren't loyal to a store, there's going to be a reason. Gamers won't spurn a store for no reason.
Maybe they don't stock their preferred game enough. Maybe they don't have open gaming days for that game on days when they're free. Maybe they aren't pricing competitively (not only to online stores, but to other local stores too). Maybe there are clubs around that are better suited to the gaming. Maybe they don't like the community the store fosters.
If a store is losing customers, instead of whining online and/or to remaining customers about the evils of online stores, they should be asking customers (particularly lost customers if they see them again) why they left, and figure out how to get them back.
+1
It sounds like this store is operating in a similar fashion to GW themselves, expecting people to be perfectly ok with buying at full retail and not asking what their customers want, and we can clearly see that is failing for GW.
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Post by: Yonan
insaniak wrote:It's a general theme in threads discussing stores and the associated issues with running them... Some people feel that if a store offers free gaming space, you're morally obliged to spend money there if you make use of that free service.
Yep. In this thread I was called arrogant and disingenuous for giving reasons to buy online or ask for a discount to buy locally to support a store.
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Post by: xraytango
jonolikespie wrote:Online discounts are a thing, and a brick and mortar store does have to compete with them.
That's the key word though, compete.
Offering gaming space is already a good incentive to shop there. Having a smaller discount than online but still a discount is another. Friendly, knowledgable staff. Good community support. There are tons of things they can do to compete.
What your FLGS is talking about is shutting down competition through borderline legal means rather than trying to simply beat them. That is always bad for us, the customers.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also if your owner thinks he can make more money by removing gaming space then honestly I'd just say he is a bad business man or doesn't understand his market.
Well, you know, it was just been working so dashingly well for GW that everyone wants to tap in to this new paradigm in the marketplace. Customer service is just so otiose.
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Post by: moogleman94
Its states it the contracts now that you cannot have an online store without having a physical one, they then give parameters for what a store is. So all online stores have physical space and most of them have gaming areas. This came in about the same time as they prohibited the selling of spare parts.
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Post by: privateer4hire
XT, Good vocab exercise for us with the 'otiose'
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Post by: insaniak
 moogleman94 wrote:Its states it the contracts now that you cannot have an online store without having a physical one, they then give parameters for what a store is. So all online stores have physical space and most of them have gaming areas. This came in about the same time as they prohibited the selling of spare parts.
In the US, trade accounts aren't allowed to have online stores at all.
I believe the UK has a rule requiring a physical store, and Oz used to have that rule but currently doesn't.
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Post by: Kommissar Waaaghrick
Moktor, thanks for sharing this piece of information. Thanks everyone for being so civil as well. This perspective is one of the (many) pieces of the puzzle of "what does GW think it's doing" that I've been trying to figure out.
Like many here, I'm not sure I share his view, but then again, I don't run a retail store like he does. I am aware of the producer - distributor - retailer - consumer chain and it's nearly impossible to please them all at the same time. I'm also reminded that Tom Kirby, the exiting CEO of GW, was himself a distributor...the guy who sells to retailers like the person Moktor spoke to. Well, at least he made someone happy.
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Post by: boyd
 MWHistorian wrote:I only buy at my local FLGS. Sure, I could find it cheaper, but I use their tables and enjoy the community there. I've been all over and it's by far my favorite place. They have an on-line store, "Spiky Bits," and the FLGS is " FTW Games." Fantastic place. At least eight gaming tables and even more for MTG. (which I don't play.)
If they don't have something, I order it through them. They have a membership where you can build up store credit and buy/sell used stuff. Love it.
We had the Amorous Armadillo Game Shoppe and they did a quarterly bazaar. You told the shop owner you needed some space in the shop for the day and you could sell your minis, games, etc. for the day. At the end of the day, you got store credit for your sales. Win win for both sides.
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Post by: Tannhauser42
So, looking at the original post, GW is great because they somehow protect the sales of the local stores by being harsh on internet sales (all the while GW is making more and more of the products available only from their own store), and they're great to the local store because they toss in a few freebies if the store maintains a certain level of GW stock? And Privateer Press is bad because they do none of these things?
And here I thought Privateer Press was good for stores because of the support they show for active gaming and tournament play which helps sell the product, while GW was bad for stores because they do absolutely nothing to help the stores sell the product.
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Post by: Moktor
 Tannhauser42 wrote:So, looking at the original post, GW is great because they somehow protect the sales of the local stores by being harsh on internet sales (all the while GW is making more and more of the products available only from their own store), and they're great to the local store because they toss in a few freebies if the store maintains a certain level of GW stock? And Privateer Press is bad because they do none of these things?
And here I thought Privateer Press was good for stores because of the support they show for active gaming and tournament play which helps sell the product, while GW was bad for stores because they do absolutely nothing to help the stores sell the product.
The approaches are very different. PP tries to sell product by making the product itself good. The tight ruleset, tournament support, and even their volunteer programs make for a far superior GAME (and the hobby/model quality is catching up, fast). GW, OTOH, markets for profit, and will do what they can to make retailers happy (when it suits them), or simply make "pretty" products. Yes, their models often look VERY good, but as a gamer myself, all that eyecandy does nothing when there are constant wars about balance... whether it is within a codex, across the armies, or even rules so vague that no one ever really knows what they are trying to say.
Oops, starting to rant.
The truth is, people like me (and many of the posters that frequent this site) don't really hate 40k or any other GW product, per se. We just feel burned when the company that makes a product that we really WANT to like does stupid crap (like all the things that get argued here daily) and we are forced to suck it up and pay the man, or find another product elsewhere. The thing that *I* am gathering from their marketing policies is that rather than fix their game, they would rather incentivize local retailers to peddle their ( GW) wares over another product. I don't think GW has ever, in their entire history, had real competition until now. They can look at the practices of other games, whether it be W/H, Infinity, Malifaux, or even Mercs, X-Wing, etc... and draw from them. There is a REASON people are leaving, look at the competition, and make some adjustment to your own product, instead of basically using muscle to try desperately to maintain market share.
How many people here play alternative games but would return to GW and stay there if they would just fix their game?
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Post by: nkelsch
Moktor wrote:
How many people here play alternative games but would return to GW and stay there if they would just fix their game?
Apparently, You can charge 80$ for a model if your ruleset is super balanced and that 80$ model is 1/3rd of your total basic army. You don't need to actually make the model cheaper.
That is the thing, while people complain about the prices, they are gladly paying the exact same prices per model because they feel like they are getting a 'better' gaming experience. So if GW made a rule set which was competitive, balanced and worked at levels of 750 points, apparently the models cost would no longer be a factor.
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Post by: Moktor
nkelsch wrote: Moktor wrote:
How many people here play alternative games but would return to GW and stay there if they would just fix their game?
Apparently, You can charge 80$ for a model if your ruleset is super balanced and that 80$ model is 1/3rd of your total basic army. You don't need to actually make the model cheaper.
That is the thing, while people complain about the prices, they are gladly paying the exact same prices per model because they feel like they are getting a 'better' gaming experience. So if GW made a rule set which was competitive, balanced and worked at levels of 750 points, apparently the models cost would no longer be a factor.
You are exactly right. I play one-off friendly games of 40k when I can, but I will travel to play in competitive W/H whenever possible. If GW cleaned up their game I probably would be willing to play and pay more than I do now.
People say that the game doesn't have to be balanced, it is all about the "fun." Well, for many of us, "fun" IS the balanced competitive game. The funny thing is, a balanced game can be enjoyed by anyone, regardless of hobby/fluff/competitive mindsets. A poorly made game immediately eliminates one option.
My local owner always turns the discussion to price to show that (in this example) PP games are negligibly cheaper. Then I remember that the argument really is less about cost and more about the over-arching business decisions coupled with a weak ruleset. Inconsistent pricing, rules, and even fluff make the game a mess.
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Post by: mikhaila
"Sure", he said, wondering how much he'd get flamed this time around.......
On discounting....
I can't compete with online discounters. If you promise to buy if I offer 10% off, you'll buy from the guy offering 20%. If I offer 20%, you'll buy at 30% online. There are some guys offering more than that. Plus, i am in a state that makes me collect sales tax. (COLLECT, not charge. I don't get to keep it, it goes to the state). People say I should match online and eat the sales tax cost. Offer 46% off to match some guys 40% off.
Won't work. I simply can't stay in business at that margin. Can't pay the 7k a month in rent and utilities. Pay my employess a good wage. Pay myself enough to have a family.
On competing with online stores...
So buying loyalty by discounting doesn't work at all. Gamers are only loyal until a bigger discount comes along. Retailers call it "racing to the bottom".
So what does work? I won't talk for other retailers, but I try to compete this way:
-Have stuff on the shelf that people want. You can count on walking in the store and finding it. Not me saying "but i can special order it".
-Being open long hours, 7 days a week.
-Having a large area to play games with your friends, whether it's board games, miniatures, or magic. No charge, always available.
-Taking pre-orders and making sure they arrive, for limited product. You need me to beat up GW for 10 more copies of Space Hulk? NP.
-Events, painting, modeling.
-Knowing what the hell you are talking about. No glassy stare as you tell me about your army.
-Staying open late so people can play until 1am, and meet up with friends.
-Clean store, clean bathrooms, air conditioning.
It's working so far for a couple of decades, but does feel like Stalingrad at times. Hard not to kill the people playing on the tables who announce they only buy online.
I do find ironic the huge outpouring of Love when a store announces it's closing. If you like your FLGS, then support it. And the time to support it is now, not when they decide to close the doors.
On GW NA's policy of not selling to non-BM stores, and not allowing online sales other than their own.
-I think it does help out BM stores, and BM stores make GW a lot of money.
-I think it does help my store out a bit, but not quantifiable. I think it helps out Neal at the Warstore more.
-I think it helps GW more, since they still sell online, while not letting anyone else do so.
-Is this policy necessary to keep around the BM stores that help keep alive the hobby and their business? No clue at all. Automatically Appended Next Post: Tannhauser42 wrote:So, looking at the original post, GW is great because they somehow protect the sales of the local stores by being harsh on internet sales (all the while GW is making more and more of the products available only from their own store), and they're great to the local store because they toss in a few freebies if the store maintains a certain level of GW stock? And Privateer Press is bad because they do none of these things?
And here I thought Privateer Press was good for stores because of the support they show for active gaming and tournament play which helps sell the product, while GW was bad for stores because they do absolutely nothing to help the stores sell the product.
Both statements have a lot of truth to them But neither company is 'bad'.
GW needs to build community and support events the way Privateer does.
Privateer could better support stores in many ways. They mostly support community and pressgangers, not stores.
Both need to keep more of their models in stock and available to retailers to have on their shelves.
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Post by: Davor
I still say it's low of a person who buys else where and then play at a store and not buy anything there.
The way I see it, want to buy else where, play else where. Other wise why are you at the store in the first place?
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Post by: fullheadofhair
Davor wrote:I still say it's low of a person who buys else where and then play at a store and not buy anything there.
The way I see it, want to buy else where, play else where. Other wise why are you at the store in the first place?
I cannot agree with this more.
If you regularly use a store to met with friends, chin wag and play games and then buy else where you are nothing more than a parasite. You are contributing nothing to that store and, although impossible to do, you should pay to play at that store. Nothing in life is free - why should you get free use of tables etc - it isnt a club house.
How the heck do you expect a store to survive and provide those facilities -oh yes, I see, by other people paying.
Yes, parasite describes it perfectly.
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Post by: Moktor
Thanks, this does sum things up well. I don't PERSONALLY fall into the lines of your discount point, but I am willing to bet I am in the minority. I buy occasional items in store at MSRP, and usually buy "non-essentials" discounted. You know, those models one gets because they just want to be a completionist, but will probably never use them? (I'm looking at you, Scyrah Destors!). But heck, maybe I am just good at making excuses. One thing you DID say is how you keep people buying at full price... keep a freaking stock. I *KNOW* I am not the only impulse buyer out there, my owner explicitly said that people don't impulse-buy models. Tell that to our next-nearest game store, two hours away. I have bought lots of junk SIMPLY because it was on the wall. I have done it locally as well, but there isn't very much on the wall so...
I think this was excellent input, because I think we all secretly realize that owners need to eat, and that you don't do it for charity. That being said, I think my local owner could use a few tweaks to really get things going. Realize, of course, that this is not a big city, and he isn't going to be able to stock like a store that is located in one.
 mikhaila wrote:
"Sure", he said, wondering how much he'd get flamed this time around.......
On discounting....
I can't compete with online discounters. If you promise to buy if I offer 10% off, you'll buy from the guy offering 20%. If I offer 20%, you'll buy at 30% online. There are some guys offering more than that. Plus, i am in a state that makes me collect sales tax. (COLLECT, not charge. I don't get to keep it, it goes to the state). People say I should match online and eat the sales tax cost. Offer 46% off to match some guys 40% off.
Won't work. I simply can't stay in business at that margin. Can't pay the 7k a month in rent and utilities. Pay my employess a good wage. Pay myself enough to have a family.
On competing with online stores...
So buying loyalty by discounting doesn't work at all. Gamers are only loyal until a bigger discount comes along. Retailers call it "racing to the bottom".
So what does work? I won't talk for other retailers, but I try to compete this way:
-Have stuff on the shelf that people want. You can count on walking in the store and finding it. Not me saying "but i can special order it".
-Being open long hours, 7 days a week.
-Having a large area to play games with your friends, whether it's board games, miniatures, or magic. No charge, always available.
-Taking pre-orders and making sure they arrive, for limited product. You need me to beat up GW for 10 more copies of Space Hulk? NP.
-Events, painting, modeling.
-Knowing what the hell you are talking about. No glassy stare as you tell me about your army.
-Staying open late so people can play until 1am, and meet up with friends.
-Clean store, clean bathrooms, air conditioning.
It's working so far for a couple of decades, but does feel like Stalingrad at times. Hard not to kill the people playing on the tables who announce they only buy online.
I do find ironic the huge outpouring of Love when a store announces it's closing. If you like your FLGS, then support it. And the time to support it is now, not when they decide to close the doors.
On GW NA's policy of not selling to non-BM stores, and not allowing online sales other than their own.
-I think it does help out BM stores, and BM stores make GW a lot of money.
-I think it does help my store out a bit, but not quantifiable. I think it helps out Neal at the Warstore more.
-I think it helps GW more, since they still sell online, while not letting anyone else do so.
-Is this policy necessary to keep around the BM stores that help keep alive the hobby and their business? No clue at all.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tannhauser42 wrote:So, looking at the original post, GW is great because they somehow protect the sales of the local stores by being harsh on internet sales (all the while GW is making more and more of the products available only from their own store), and they're great to the local store because they toss in a few freebies if the store maintains a certain level of GW stock? And Privateer Press is bad because they do none of these things?
And here I thought Privateer Press was good for stores because of the support they show for active gaming and tournament play which helps sell the product, while GW was bad for stores because they do absolutely nothing to help the stores sell the product.
Both statements have a lot of truth to them But neither company is 'bad'.
GW needs to build community and support events the way Privateer does.
Privateer could better support stores in many ways. They mostly support community and pressgangers, not stores.
Both need to keep more of their models in stock and available to retailers to have on their shelves.
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Post by: Yonan
Davor wrote:I still say it's low of a person who buys else where and then play at a store and not buy anything there.
The way I see it, want to buy else where, play else where. Other wise why are you at the store in the first place?
You said it yourself - they want to play there. Why don't the stores charge for that privilege so that people can contribute what they use rather than fudging the numbers through pricier sales? The guy who plays 20 hours a week in the store but buys one box every month pays far less compared to the guy who buys a box a week and plays for 2 hours a week. Paying 4 times as much for 10% of the "product". As a rough example to illustrate the point. I happily pay my share to rent club rooms to avoid that nonsense thought and it works out to *far* less than by paying retail.
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Post by: insaniak
Yonan wrote: Why don't the stores charge for that privilege so that people can contribute what they use rather than fudging the numbers through pricier sales?
Generally because people will refuse to pay to play in stores.
The US gaming culture is quite different to ours. We're used to paying for space to play, because gaming clubs are far more prevalent... but even here, the few times I've heard of stores trying to charge for tables it's been met with hostility.
Charging to play in campaigns or tournaments is fine. Charging for open gaming? Not so much.
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Post by: Vertrucio
Remember though that Australian/NZ and UK are the minority in how they play when it comes to how the world games. The only reason why people put so much stock in the way they play is that GW is based in the UK and for years has been pushing these skewed notions upon the world.
Also that in places like the UK, not sure if it's the same as in Aus/NZ, but GW has for many years driven a lot of local game stores out of business or away, thus prompting the need for people to create game clubs out of necessity, combined with space being less available overall.
My US store here has had to, in the past, kick out or deter groups from using the tables that aren't contributing to sales, or at least play sellable products. This included some RPG groups who almost never bought anything, yet still insisted on coming in and taking up all the tables for a day. Or some people pushing lego games
Also, US gamers can and do form game clubs. But they usually form tangentially around stores where there is free gaming space. Where there isn't a store, game clubs will form up around community spaces. There's probably more game clubs in the US than all of UK and Australia combined due to sheer size and population of the US.
As for the original topic. GW's practices are only good for GW and GW's stores. GW has a habit of screwing over their own store relations by purposely opening up retail shops next to successful stores and driving business away from those shops.
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Post by: Yonan
insaniak wrote: Yonan wrote: Why don't the stores charge for that privilege so that people can contribute what they use rather than fudging the numbers through pricier sales?
Generally because people will refuse to pay to play in stores. The US gaming culture is quite different to ours. We're used to paying for space to play, because gaming clubs are far more prevalent... but even here, the few times I've heard of stores trying to charge for tables it's been met with hostility. Charging to play in campaigns or tournaments is fine. Charging for open gaming? Not so much.
If they're also being charged full retail I'd refuse too ; p It's fine to go either way, but to generalise as parasites or "low behaviour" like in the posts above mine is where I take issue.  Vertrucio wrote:My US store here has had to, in the past, kick out or deter groups from using the tables that aren't contributing to sales, or at least play sellable products. This included some RPG groups who almost never bought anything, yet still insisted on coming in and taking up all the tables for a day. Or some people pushing lego games
That's why charging for table space seems like the ideal solution. If they want the community but not the products on sale, they pay for that instead and the store still makes its money.
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Post by: TheAuldGrump
Most game stores that I have been to did charge for table space - and two went under when they crossed a line on how much they were charging for the use.
$2 - $5?
No problem.
But trying to charge $10 sent folks to the mail order retailers as well as finding other places to run their games. (This was before the internet was all that powerful... though I was on FIDO and PLink at the time.)
Mind you, I think that the attempt at $10 per head was a symptom of the store losing money - but making the attempt nailed the coffin lids in place.
The Auld Grump
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Post by: gunslingerpro
Yonan wrote:
That's why charging for table space seems like the ideal solution. If they want the community but not the products on sale, they pay for that instead and the store still makes its money.
It sounds good, but rarely works stateside. My FLGS did that to Tuesday nights, making it so you had to be a member of a specific group (that paid 'dues', basically paying the store for table space) etc to play on Tuesdays.
It lasted a few months before the numbers totally fell off, and went back to the old system.
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Post by: Yonan
 TheAuldGrump wrote:Mind you, I think that the attempt at $10 per head was a symptom of the store losing money - but making the attempt nailed the coffin lids in place.
Yep I don't doubt it's on the difficult side to run a profitable store for a relatively small hobby like ours.
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Post by: Vertrucio
Stores can make better use of their tables by running more events that have an entry fee, instead of charging for table use.
This has two net positives in that it gathers gamers together, and promotes the store to new people since a lot of events can pull in players that play at other places or in private groups.
It also promotes the games themselves, showing a community that the game is popular enough to warrant these events.
It just doesn't sit well to just charge to use a space. Even these game clubs don't do that. Instead, it's better to charge entry fees, or club dues. That's why no one balks over club fees to use a space, it's because the entire club is descending down on this space to use it to their exclusivity.
That same RPG group that was deterred from coming back balked big time when the store owner proposed that they pay to use the large, hard to find elsewhere gaming tables for regular gaming. When a conflict came up between them and the CCG players after that, it was clear who had to go since the RPG group literally hadn't bought anything for months, most didn't even buy their books in store.
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Post by: Yonan
They can't run events 24/7. Yes running events I imagine is important (I don't go to stores so can't say how much), but that still leaves the other 90% of the table time. It's not one or the other. As said above, I like gaming clubs and pay my share of room rent rather than by the hour which works great for clubs, not so much for pickup games I imagine. A store could run all 3 systems - events with entry fees, general pay by the hour use and "club" membership with a yearly fee or what not. Let people choose what's best for them. Could even give out free table use for large purchasers.
If the RPG group didn't value the tables enough to pay for them one way or the other I see no problem with revoking their playing privilege.
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Post by: TheAuldGrump
Yonan wrote: TheAuldGrump wrote:Mind you, I think that the attempt at $10 per head was a symptom of the store losing money - but making the attempt nailed the coffin lids in place.
Yep I don't doubt it's on the difficult side to run a profitable store for a relatively small hobby like ours.
Both of the stores concerned also started competing in their own events - and usually winning.
For some reason people stopped coming to the events. Space Marine for the first store, Necromunda for the second - with lots of 'house rules'. *EDIT* Including a rule that the winning team got to keep all the weapons and gear from fallen warriors from the losing team - so the winners kept on winning, and the losers kept on losing.
Though... if I remember properly, that second store actually vanished in a bitter divorce. (The money from the store came from the wife, but the store was run by the husband... who had an affair with the young woman that he had hired as a clerk.)
He may have been trying to get money to separate the store from his wife, before she found out about his infidelity.
The Auld Grump, this story has no moral, this story has no end.
This story only goes to show, there ain't no good in men....
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Post by: Yonan
Business acumen and ethics doesn't necessarily go hand in hand with a hobbyist trying to "live his dream" I guess ; p Isn't it something like 70% of small businesses fail pretty quickly too?
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Post by: mikhaila
Charging for table time does not work. It puts the staff of the store into an adversarial relationship with it's customers.
Think hard on how the actual mechanics would be....
-Gamer walks in to store, puts cases on table. At what point do I walk over to collect his fee? Hassle him at the start? Wait for a buddy to show up? Round 1?
-Do I charge hourly and keep track of the time? Per day no matter how little, how long?
-Do it on the honor system? Let players toss coins in a jar.
I frankly think it would just pit me against my players. Some would see it as hounding them for money. Others would pay for a table, and feel justified never spending another cent in the store.
I don't want to have to chase after a few bucks from guys wanting to play Warhammer. I think we'd all grow to hate it.
If it was something like a Pool Hall, maybe. You can't complain to the pool table. You put in the quarters, play a game.
Instead of charging for play space, what I've done is:
-Made several hundred pieces of terrain that makes the stuff in a GW store look like crap.
-Set up a dozen 8x4 tables that are always open for play.
-Supply dice and measuring tapes if you don't have yours. (and of course have a nice assortment to sell to you)
-Free paints, glue, and modeling tools for our classes. Generally friday nights and all day saturday. Sit, paint, model. Get help if needed.
-Seperate tables for boardgaming.
-Seperate tables for card games.
-Open late for lots of gaming.
-A pot of Chili if I feel like abusing people. Or steak sandwiches. Usually reservered for big weekend events.
Hopefully my players appreciate it and support the store. if it doesn't work, charging for space won't help.
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Post by: Yonan
1. Post sign "please see staff at counter to purchase table access".
2. Player goes to counter to purchase table access like any other product.
3. Player plays on table.
People found to be cheating the system get a warning, then get banned. Policing should be minimal overhead, just like any other part of the store. Charging for table time in no way puts staff in an adversarial position. Having "free table access" dependant on purchase of products is a much more adversarial system as you'll constantly police players for how much they spend to see if they're pulling their weight.
Your system sounds workable, a nice tabletop setup as an incentive to play at your store. If that translates into good sales - sweet. If it doesn't, it still sounds like the tables would be worth renting. If the US "scene" isn't into renting and it doesn't translate well into sales, that just sucks but surely reasonable people can see they need to pay for the privilege, one way or the other. Else they sort playing space themselves. What you describe is basically our clubs - good terrain, good people, good food and drinks, but we pay bugger all for it.
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Post by: jonolikespie
mikhaila wrote:Charging for table time does not work. It puts the staff of the store into an adversarial relationship with it's customers.
Think hard on how the actual mechanics would be....
-Gamer walks in to store, puts cases on table. At what point do I walk over to collect his fee? Hassle him at the start? Wait for a buddy to show up? Round 1?
-Do I charge hourly and keep track of the time? Per day no matter how little, how long?
-Do it on the honor system? Let players toss coins in a jar.
I frankly think it would just pit me against my players. Some would see it as hounding them for money. Others would pay for a table, and feel justified never spending another cent in the store.
I don't want to have to chase after a few bucks from guys wanting to play Warhammer. I think we'd all grow to hate it.
If it was something like a Pool Hall, maybe. You can't complain to the pool table. You put in the quarters, play a game.
Instead of charging for play space, what I've done is:
-Made several hundred pieces of terrain that makes the stuff in a GW store look like crap.
-Set up a dozen 8x4 tables that are always open for play.
-Supply dice and measuring tapes if you don't have yours. (and of course have a nice assortment to sell to you)
-Free paints, glue, and modeling tools for our classes. Generally friday nights and all day saturday. Sit, paint, model. Get help if needed.
-Seperate tables for boardgaming.
-Seperate tables for card games.
-Open late for lots of gaming.
-A pot of Chili if I feel like abusing people. Or steak sandwiches. Usually reservered for big weekend events.
Hopefully my players appreciate it and support the store. if it doesn't work, charging for space won't help.
I am now incredibly jealous I don't have a store like yours near me.
I do have one that's not too far away though and has a great atmosphere. Its usually too far to get up there on gaming night but last weekend me and a couple of friends spent $400+ there just because we popped in and got caught up talking to the owner about the projects we had on the go, the upcoming painting classes and some new stock.
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Post by: TheCustomLime
Davor wrote:I still say it's low of a person who buys else where and then play at a store and not buy anything there.
The way I see it, want to buy else where, play else where. Other wise why are you at the store in the first place?
I strongly disagree. If you are a gaming store owner you should want as many players as you can get so long as their attitude is decent. Even if they don't directly help your bottom line just being there so that paying customers can get a game will.
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Post by: Davor
Yonan wrote:1. Post sign "please see staff at counter to purchase table access".
2. Player goes to counter to purchase table access like any other product.
3. Player plays on table.
Problem with this, is I know for me, if I have to pay to play, then why buy stuff at the store? After all if I am being charged to play, the store is already having my money, why should it get more if I am not getting a big discount if I buy from there
Also Please if it is this easy, why don't you start up a store or just a "Play here store" and see how much money you get. From Rent, to Hydro, to Water and taxes, how much money are you really going to make from charging to play?
An idead I could think of is, buy water from the store. Buy the chips, chocolate bars or what ever for snacks from the store then. Also you don't have to buy EVERY PURCHASE you make at that store, but paints, glues, regular purchases. I am sure the store will understand if you don't buy the $200 purchase from him but the $50, purchase should be made at that store, if you are playing there a lot.
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Post by: Yonan
Davor wrote: Yonan wrote:1. Post sign "please see staff at counter to purchase table access". 2. Player goes to counter to purchase table access like any other product. 3. Player plays on table.
Problem with this, is I know for me, if I have to pay to play, then why buy stuff at the store? After all if I am being charged to play, the store is already having my money, why should it get more if I am not getting a big discount if I buy from there
That's exactly the point. By charging for tables they get an income stream that allows them to offer a discount to compete with the online discounters. Online discounters have lower overheads due to no things such as space to hold gaming tables. When those gaming tables bring in an income they don't need to be subsidised by higher product prices. There are a number of ways to go about it, but don't be so quick to generalise people as being parasites or unethical is my point.
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Post by: mikhaila
Yonan wrote:Davor wrote: Yonan wrote:1. Post sign "please see staff at counter to purchase table access".
2. Player goes to counter to purchase table access like any other product.
3. Player plays on table.
Problem with this, is I know for me, if I have to pay to play, then why buy stuff at the store? After all if I am being charged to play, the store is already having my money, why should it get more if I am not getting a big discount if I buy from there
That's exactly the point. By charging for tables they get an income stream that allows them to offer a discount to compete with the online discounters. Online discounters have lower overheads due to no things such as space to hold gaming tables. When those gaming tables bring in an income they don't need to be subsidised by higher product prices.
There are a number of ways to go about it, but don't be so quick to generalise people as being parasites or unethical is my point.
Wont work. Period. Been tried by retailers, fails. Discussed quite a few times at seminars and in retailer forums.
The amount brought in isn't worth the hassle of collecting it and ill will it generates from your gamers for charging. People don't come to the shop as much, and you lose more in sales than you gain in fees. The players that pay get pissed at the guys that skip paying. Stores are not clubs. While this can work at a club with dues or fees, the players feel they are in charge of the club. Works different for a store. And clubs often charge a monthly/yearly fee. A store wont' be able to do that. Automatically Appended Next Post:  TheCustomLime wrote:Davor wrote:I still say it's low of a person who buys else where and then play at a store and not buy anything there.
The way I see it, want to buy else where, play else where. Other wise why are you at the store in the first place?
I strongly disagree. If you are a gaming store owner you should want as many players as you can get so long as their attitude is decent. Even if they don't directly help your bottom line just being there so that paying customers can get a game will.
If these hypothetical non-customers could add benefit to a shop, most shop owners wouldn't mind the table space. But in reality, most of these guys don't want to play new players, don't teach people to play, and are fairly competitive. Many only play within their little cliques, arriving and leaving together. Not all, but by and large the majority. They quickly disprove the idea that the store gets value from just having people in the store. As you said "if their attitude is decent", but often it isn't.
And if a store doesn't have enough table space for paying customers, they are immediately a detriment.
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Post by: Yonan
Worked for some stores mentioned by Ye Olde Grump mentioned above. Period.
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Post by: insaniak
Yonan wrote:
Worked for some stores mentioned by Ye Olde Grump mentioned above. Period.
For a time, sure. He also mentioned that (at least) two of those are no longer in business.
Mikhaila's been doing this (and doing this well) for quite a while now.
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Post by: Yonan
Given the high failure rate of local business, some businesses failing is not a surprise especially given some of the non-business reasons he mentioned. That some succeeded indicates that the absolute "It won't work. Period." is false though which was my point there.
I don't really care tbh, I only joined in the conversation to argue against the use of insults against people who buy from discounters.
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Post by: Adam-Wayland
So why would you charge people to casually play on your tables?
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Post by: Yonan
Because there are some very large online retailers that take their customers with cheaper prices I think is the usual answer ; p They're (maybe) left between charging higher prices and therefore risk losing sales or competing on price but needing to increase income by some other means. The tables being a large draw to the store, if people are there for the tables and not the products it's a reasonable option to sell the tables as a product.
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Post by: Vermis
Who goes to a restaurant because they happen to be passing and see a bunch of people inside...?
Most gaming shops with table space, that I've seen, are way out of the way of idle window shoppers. And 'being quiet' sounds like a baffling reason to stay away, to my mind.
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Post by: marv335
insaniak wrote:It's a general theme in threads discussing stores and the associated issues with running them... Some people feel that if a store offers free gaming space, you're morally obliged to spend money there if you make use of that free service.
I don't feel "morally obliged"
I do believe in "pay where you play" though.
It's purely for selfish reasons.
I don't want the place I'm gaming at to close through lack of business.
It's not moral, it's pure selfishness.
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Post by: Ketara
 Vermis wrote:Who goes to a restaurant because they happen to be passing and see a bunch of people inside...?
I do. Especially if they're old people. Old people are always local and know where the best quality joint is for best value.
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Post by: godswildcard
I don't think people are accurately thinking about the kind of environment online-only purchasers bring to a brick and mortar store. 9/10 people that buy stuff online LOVE to talk about why they bought online, how much money they saved, and why they are your messiah for sharing such information with you. In fact, you'd be stupid to ever pay retail for a product again! That kind of attitude is very, very bad for a brick and mortar establishment.
Most people that support mostly online sales or online only sales aren't accurately thinking about the future. Without a place to walk in and play with friendly strangers, meet new people or learn about the game, you don't get new players. Without new players, the game dies. Sorry, but no matter what you think about your gaming group, no one (in the US at least) will actively seek out you and your small group of nerdy friends to meet in someone's basement to watch the one game going on the one table and then decide to jump into a miniatures game. I'm not trying to be derisive here or mean or anything, but if you're honest with yourself about people and culture in America, you'll realize that most people aren't comfortable with the gaming club environment, at least not when it comes to starting a new game. Maybe saying 'no one' is a bit of a strong term, but certainly not enough to support the overhead that a game needs to develop. We enjoy the plethora of gaming options available to use now because of stores that offer playing space.
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Post by: Wayniac
Sorry but when I'm paying $50 or so for a box of figures, discount > everything else. If I'm buying in bulk, it's better to buy at a discount because the money I save can often get me another item or two that I otherwise wouldn't be able to get.
I would be stupid to pay full retail just out of the kindness of my heart, doubly so if I have to put something on order and wait weeks for it to arrive, if it ever arrives. Impulse buys are one thing, where it's "Oooh shiny I must have at once". But for planned purchases? No way.
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Post by: nkelsch
WayneTheGame wrote:Sorry but when I'm paying $50 or so for a box of figures, discount > everything else. If I'm buying in bulk, it's better to buy at a discount because the money I save can often get me another item or two that I otherwise wouldn't be able to get.
I would be stupid to pay full retail just out of the kindness of my heart, doubly so if I have to put something on order and wait weeks for it to arrive, if it ever arrives.
Do you bring a bagged lunch to a restaurant?
Have you ever had a 30$ meal when you could have gone to the grocery store and cooked it yourself for 10$?
As long as you buy your food cheaper elsewhere, and make it at home, then there is no problem. The issue is when you want the service, ambiance and social access to other people that you can get at a restaurant but not to buy the food or pay for the service that there is a problem. You are basically showing up at Happy hour with your bagged lunch and beer and claiming the restaurant should let you stay because 'others' are paying customers.
The issue is when customers like you don't 'pay where you play', stores decide the 'real' customers, IE: MTG card game people deserve the gaming space and then no one gets to tabletop game, period. If you play at home, enjoy your deep discounts.
"If you gave us places to game, people will buy locally... not me of course, but I am sure someone else will! Here is 25cents profit on a snickers bar I bought, See? I support the store."
And for you guys not in the US, US gaming is store-centric, and so are clubs who usually have store affiliations. So often the members of the club and people playing are not usually the same thing. Members usually help the store run events and clean up when people trash the place, and often players come and go and have no club affiliation.
Personally, I feel like Kickstarter has hurt more than anything. I used to buy locally and game wargaming at stores. Due to Kickstarters, I have been buying more board games with exclusives which is money denied to my store. It is flat out insulting to show up with a game the store can't even sell due to KS, and take up table space all day. I have been doing more meet-ups and private gaming due to the nature of what I have been buying from KS, and it really puts into perspective how hard it is to organize gaming opposed to mindlessly deciding to 'go play games today' and drive to a known location and find a dozen people to play with.
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Post by: Wayniac
Perhaps, but my local store also barely carries anything for the game I play (Warmachine) so I typically have to order it anyways. So I figure if I have to order it anyways, why order and pay full retail and wait 3+ weeks for it to arrive when I can order it online, get a 30% discount and on top of that have it all but guaranteed in stock and arrive in a week? No brainer for me. Sure if they have something I want immediately I might buy it, but ultimately paying more and having to wait is for suckers.
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Post by: Ketara
nkelsch wrote:
Personally, I feel like Kickstarter has hurt more than anything. I used to buy locally and game wargaming at stores. Due to Kickstarters, I have been buying more board games with exclusives which is money denied to my store. It is flat out insulting to show up with a game the store can't even sell due to KS, and take up table space all day. I have been doing more meet-ups and private gaming due to the nature of what I have been buying from KS, and it really puts into perspective how hard it is to organize gaming opposed to mindlessly deciding to 'go play games today' and drive to a known location and find a dozen people to play with.
I'm not convinced that Kickstarter is such a big deal. I know a lot of people worry that it takes sales out of the gaming store, and I've seen more than one Game shop owner lamenting that everyone who wanted a specific board game bought it online in the original kickstarter, thus stopping them from selling any.
But the thing is, without those Kickstarter investments, the game very often wouldn't have happened anyway in which case the retailer would never have been able to sell it. It's a bit like second hand video games, the game studios lament that each one traded in/sold is taking a sale away from them, but in most cases, you quite possibly wouldn't have bought it if it hadn't been half the official price (due to being second hand).
The only way in which the Kickstarter could be feasibly denying your game store money, is when you spend your money there instead of at the game shop period. But that same reasoning could be applied every time you buy (to refer back again) a video game. Or a new car. Or a meal at a restaurant. Or any money spent anywhere that you could feasibly have spent at the game shop. I'm not sure it's something to feel apologetic about.
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Post by: Steve steveson
Vermis wrote:Who goes to a restaurant because they happen to be passing and see a bunch of people inside...?
Most gaming shops with table space, that I've seen, are way out of the way of idle window shoppers. And 'being quiet' sounds like a baffling reason to stay away, to my mind.
Lots of people. Thats why restaurants always fill the window seats first. Makes them look busy, therefor popular, therefor good.
It's not about kindness, but supporting what else a B&M business brings. If we don't then they will go the way of the rest of the highstreet. You will end up like supermarkets where a few big players dominate the market and care only about profit. I try and buy as much of my food as I can from my local farm shop, as they produce most of the meat and veg, pay staff well, know their customers and care. Same for me goes for my gaming. I buy what I can from my FLGS as the manager talks to me, points me towards things I might like and will let me know if something I am after is coming in to stock. He has hunted down things I want from wholesalers before. I don't know any online stores that will do this.
People should buy what they want from where they want, but don't think its about being stupid or kindness. I have seen the local butcher, who would mince up some meat for me if he had run low and gave me old beef bones for the dog, and the local fishmonger, who would sell me a small bit of monkfish and prep and fillet salmon how I wanted, all go as people wanted to save a few pence at the supermarket, but now find they can only get the generic, pre-packaged service. So I will continue to support my local shops unless I really can't get what I want there.
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Post by: nkelsch
WayneTheGame wrote:Perhaps, but my local store also barely carries anything for the game I play (Warmachine) so I typically have to order it anyways. So I figure if I have to order it anyways, why order and pay full retail and wait 3+ weeks for it to arrive when I can order it online, get a 30% discount and on top of that have it all but guaranteed in stock and arrive in a week? No brainer for me. Sure if they have something I want immediately I might buy it, but ultimately paying more and having to wait is for suckers.
As long as you don't game there... then there is no problem. If you want a place to game without having to organize people and the gaming space is nice and useful, then the 'sucker' is the person who pays elsewhere then complains when that space is not available for him to use, either due to it being given to better quality customers like MTG people or the store goes under.
Also, Fulfillment issues with warmahordes is usually PPs fault. So write PP and tell them to get their gak together.
May also be if more people bought in-store, your owner could place bigger and more regular orders and have a more stocked inventory?
Pay where you play... I hope online discounters provide gaming space for you when your local store is gone. If you already game at home, then no worries right?
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Post by: Platuan4th
 Ketara wrote:but in most cases, you quite possibly wouldn't have bought it if it hadn't been half the official price (due to being second hand).
I'm the outlier in this case. I refuse to buy pre-owned games that are still available new because I know it isn't supporting the creators and because of how places like EBGames work with regards to pre-owned. Of course, I'm the sort that doesn't need the newest game immediately and plays vidja games so rarely these days that I can buy 1-2 games a year and still be playing the same 3-4 2 years later.
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Post by: Ketara
 Platuan4th wrote: Ketara wrote:but in most cases, you quite possibly wouldn't have bought it if it hadn't been half the official price (due to being second hand).
I'm the outlier in this case. I refuse to buy pre-owned games that are still available new because I know it isn't supporting the creators and because of how places like EBGames work with regards to pre-owned.
Of course, I'm the sort that doesn't need the newest game immediately and plays vidja games so rarely these days that I can buy 1-2 games a year and still be playing the same 3-4 2 years later.
I'm curious. Would you refuse to buy a five year old second hand book at a bootfair for 99p because you can still buy it new in a bookshop for a tenner?
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Post by: Yonan
Ketara wrote:I'm curious. Would you refuse to buy a five year old second hand book at a bootfair for 99p because you can still buy it new in a bookshop for a tenner?
Digital goods are different to physical goods and should be treated as such. That means both no concept of them being stolen via piracy, but likewise their 2nd hand status being up for debate. Normal physical goods degrade over time and do not cost the company resources. Digital goods do not degrade over time and can cost the company resources by playing multiplayer on their servers for example.
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Post by: Ketara
Yonan wrote: Ketara wrote:I'm curious. Would you refuse to buy a five year old second hand book at a bootfair for 99p because you can still buy it new in a bookshop for a tenner?
Digital goods are different to physical goods and should be treated as such. That means both no concept of them being stolen via piracy, but likewise their 2nd hand status being up for debate. Normal physical goods degrade over time and do not cost the company resources. Digital goods do not degrade over time and can cost the company resources by playing multiplayer on their servers for example.
In my initial example, I was referring to hard disc copies from a video games shop. Those can be bandied around, and degrade over time from scratches and suchlike.
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Post by: MWHistorian
nkelsch wrote:WayneTheGame wrote:Perhaps, but my local store also barely carries anything for the game I play (Warmachine) so I typically have to order it anyways. So I figure if I have to order it anyways, why order and pay full retail and wait 3+ weeks for it to arrive when I can order it online, get a 30% discount and on top of that have it all but guaranteed in stock and arrive in a week? No brainer for me. Sure if they have something I want immediately I might buy it, but ultimately paying more and having to wait is for suckers.
As long as you don't game there... then there is no problem. If you want a place to game without having to organize people and the gaming space is nice and useful, then the 'sucker' is the person who pays elsewhere then complains when that space is not available for him to use, either due to it being given to better quality customers like MTG people or the store goes under.
Also, Fulfillment issues with warmahordes is usually PPs fault. So write PP and tell them to get their gak together.
May also be if more people bought in-store, your owner could place bigger and more regular orders and have a more stocked inventory?
Pay where you play... I hope online discounters provide gaming space for you when your local store is gone. If you already game at home, then no worries right?
That's exactly how I feel. If you want a cool place to hang out and game you have to realize that it isn't free.
Being left without a local gaming store is for suckers.
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Post by: Yonan
Physical discs are still digital products. I'm sure it's possible that they can be damaged but you have to actively mistreat them for that to happen and it's basically a binary working / not-working as opposed to a constant degradation with each use. It's worth watching Totalbiscuits video on used games for a very good overview of the topic. If your nation for some reason spurns the far superior gaming group model with the best of both worlds ; p
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Post by: mikhaila
Yonan wrote:
Worked for some stores mentioned by Ye Olde Grump mentioned above. Period.
By 'working' you mean 'no longer in business'?
What charging does is get people out of your store. If that was your goal, it works. I know of a few stores that have done that to control CCG crowds, especially yu-gi-oh, and in extreme cases where they were being used as babysitters.
If you mean 'work = brings in profit", then no, you are incorrect.
The general attitude of players who are asked to pay for table space is "I'll get together with the guys at my house". And I can't really blame them for that.
-----------------------------------------------------------
But at this point I'm out of the discussion. I only posted after a friend asked me to. If i want to discuss business, i can argue business methods with many people who are actually in my business.. Here on Dakka, it's too much like YMDC discussions, and go on forever, with nothing accomplished. If you open your own store, use your methods and best of luck to you.
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Post by: Platuan4th
Ketara wrote:Would you refuse to buy a five year old second hand book at a bootfair for 99p because you can still buy it new in a bookshop for a tenner?
Yes, but for entirely different reasons. Mostly because I HATE that people don't know how to properly open/hold books and thus tend to break the spine. The only books I own with broken spines are ones that I've had for over 15 years and have read 10+ times OR are antiques. I'm a bit snobbish with how I treat books(and thus won't buy them unless they're in a certain condition) and having worked in a book store didn't help that attitude. Yes, this means that I have even passed on used university text books for 1/3-1/2 the price to purchase new copies for full. THAT SAID, when given the chance, I try to purchase new product direct from the author or music group when they're local or someone I know(I know way too many published authors these days) rather than through retail chains so as they get a bigger cut.
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Post by: Yonan
Edited by Manchu
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Post by: Moktor
I don't mean this as an attack, as I also do buy online regularly while buying locally occasionally.
The simple truth is that this applies to people who have local gaming stores and use them. It is a business, not an entitlement. While I do agree that you shouldn't feel guilted into buying a $50 box everytime you step into the shop to play a casual game, to say that you have no ethical responsibility to support said shop is just a sign of selfishness and entitlement. I could use phrases like "this country" or "that country," but the truth is that people are people and we are all guilty of that self-entitled attitude that some dude (who does NOT get rich running a game store) OWES you that game space.
He or she does NOT owe the customer anything outside of an exchange of money for goods. The tables serve a purpose, but that purpose is to drive sales. I have a home game board, as do a few of my local friends. Sometimes we hold games at the house, but often we play at the store. As someone said above, good luck drawing the strangers and new players in at someone's house... I don't want random unknown people going to my house! But I surely do like to play and meet new people!
I would say that there is an ethical responsibility for a person who uses a service to support that service. I would never fault anyone for running home games while buying online, but the fact is that if you use your local shop and don't support it, then you are a contributor to the "problem."
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Post by: MWHistorian
If my store charged for gaming space, I simply wouldn't go there.
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Post by: Moktor
Mikhaila has an investment in this discussion. I won't say whether the arguments are insulting, per se, but Mikhaila is coming from the perspective that game store = food on the table.
Most of use simply can't make that connection. I have a secure job, as I KNOW I won't run out of bad guys to deal with. Mikhaila has to deal with the online sellers and keep the business running.
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Post by: Platuan4th
Moktor wrote:I would say that there is an ethical responsibility for a person who uses a service to support that service.
Oh man, the things I can make you say with this sentence out of context. But that wouldn't be ethical of me. 
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Post by: Moktor
Platuan4th wrote: Moktor wrote:I would say that there is an ethical responsibility for a person who uses a service to support that service.
Oh man, the things I can make you say with this sentence out of context.
But that wouldn't be ethical of me.
It's the internet, I expect nothing :p
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Post by: TheCustomLime
mikhaila wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TheCustomLime wrote:Davor wrote:I still say it's low of a person who buys else where and then play at a store and not buy anything there.
The way I see it, want to buy else where, play else where. Other wise why are you at the store in the first place?
I strongly disagree. If you are a gaming store owner you should want as many players as you can get so long as their attitude is decent. Even if they don't directly help your bottom line just being there so that paying customers can get a game will.
If these hypothetical non-customers could add benefit to a shop, most shop owners wouldn't mind the table space. But in reality, most of these guys don't want to play new players, don't teach people to play, and are fairly competitive. Many only play within their little cliques, arriving and leaving together. Not all, but by and large the majority. They quickly disprove the idea that the store gets value from just having people in the store. As you said "if their attitude is decent", but often it isn't.
And if a store doesn't have enough table space for paying customers, they are immediately a detriment.
I think this may be a case on confirmation bias but I could be wrong. I doubt that customers who don't buy at their FLGS are all like that. I doubt that the majority I like that. It's also possible that cliquish, competitive jerks are also the type to not pay rather than the other way around.
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Post by: the_Armyman
It just reeks of tax collecting, IMO. And we all know how popular that line of work is  The only example I've ever heard of a successful gaming store that charged for tables, he refunded the fee in store credit. However, I'm not familiar with the mechanics of the transaction.
I do find it humorous how some people seem intent on telling a guy how to conduct his business, though.
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Post by: weeble1000
 fullheadofhair wrote:Davor wrote:I still say it's low of a person who buys else where and then play at a store and not buy anything there.
The way I see it, want to buy else where, play else where. Other wise why are you at the store in the first place?
I cannot agree with this more.
If you regularly use a store to met with friends, chin wag and play games and then buy else where you are nothing more than a parasite. You are contributing nothing to that store and, although impossible to do, you should pay to play at that store. Nothing in life is free - why should you get free use of tables etc - it isnt a club house.
How the heck do you expect a store to survive and provide those facilities -oh yes, I see, by other people paying.
Yes, parasite describes it perfectly.
No, parasite does not describe it perfectly. What if customer A comes to the store to play because customer B plays at the store? If customer A buys at the store and customer B buys online, but customer A wouldn't be at the store but for the presence of customer B...
Mik seems to be talking about, now and previously, building a community centered around the FLGS. I agree that it isn't great to buy online when you are a regular fixture of a store, and I agree that talking about buying at online discounts while in a FLGS is disrespectful, but my understanding is that if you can bring people into the store, you can more easily get people to buy from the store. That's naturally going to involve bringing in people who don't buy at the store. If you treat those potential customers as parasites, it does not make for a healthy environment.
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Post by: nkelsch
weeble1000 wrote:
No, parasite does not describe it perfectly. What if customer A comes to the store to play because customer B plays at the store? If customer A buys at the store and customer B buys online, but customer A wouldn't be at the store but for the presence of customer B...
Mik seems to be talking about, now and previously, building a community centered around the FLGS. I agree that it isn't great to buy online when you are a regular fixture of a store, and I agree that talking about buying at online discounts while in a FLGS is disrespectful, but my understanding is that if you can bring people into the store, you can more easily get people to buy from the store. That's naturally going to involve bringing in people who don't buy at the store. If you treat those potential customers as parasites, it does not make for a healthy environment.
That assumes that Customer C doesn't exist, and that If Customer C was a paying customer, that Customer A would still be there to play with Customer C. Basically this is another example of Customer B telling people why he is required even though he contributes nothing.
This also assumes that there is infinite space and Customer B is never preventing Customer C from accessing table space by his presence, so while supposedly being the sole reason Customer A exists by his mere presence, he has now caused a loss of sale from customer C.
Will there be shades of grey where a person who has little money never buys anything but does a lot of hard work to promote store gaming and generate customers? Sure! but often that is not the case, and for those who it is the case, they are 'paying' via service to the store and community.
I think people who intentionally don't buy in the store but consume the gaming space overestimate their self worth and come up with fantastical fictional scenarios to show their justification when they know none of those scenarios actually apply to them. And we all know that cheapskates can't keep their damn mouths shut... Every single person who needs to justify why they don't buy locally in store is first to make excuses and brag about online discounters... I am sure those people keep their lipped buttoned when gaming out of respect for the store right?
This never happens:
"Hey Kid, what you bought a PP boxed set? You are a sucker, you could have gotten that 30% off online, now get out of the way, I want to play a game on this table. "
Fantastical hypotheticals swing both ways. There is a difference between being oblivious to economics, being a contributing member of a community via service, being a lazy mooch and being a cancerous parasite. Often it is the cancerous parasites trying to explain how they are something other than they really are while in turn being destructive, often with thier community damaging attitudes, anti-social behavior and actively trying to deter purchases from the local store while monopolizing space from paying customers.
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Post by: Moktor
The term leech is reserved for people who regularly attend the store, not just some dude who visits to play a game once with a friend. Or even twice, for that matter. Regulars KNOW who regulars are. Even in larger stores with loads of players in different games, you know who the people are who are in there all the time. I don't touch card games, but I know most of the regular card players. I don't do RPG's or board games either, but I know the players that are there regularly playing those games exclusively.
We can sit here and split hairs all day so that certain posters can proclaim "He ain't talkin' bout me!" But the fact is, if you throw a rock into a pack of dogs, the one who yelps is the one who got hit.
You know if you're a leech, and you know if you are supporting a store. It really is simple, and if a person with very little money comes in and plays occasionally with friends, no one is going to say squat. If some dude is constantly coming in and showing off all his 30% off gear while being able to legally use the store as a home address you have a different issue.
We all know where we stand on this spectrum, and it IS a spectrum as things are seldom black and white.
weeble1000 wrote: fullheadofhair wrote:Davor wrote:I still say it's low of a person who buys else where and then play at a store and not buy anything there.
The way I see it, want to buy else where, play else where. Other wise why are you at the store in the first place?
I cannot agree with this more.
If you regularly use a store to met with friends, chin wag and play games and then buy else where you are nothing more than a parasite. You are contributing nothing to that store and, although impossible to do, you should pay to play at that store. Nothing in life is free - why should you get free use of tables etc - it isnt a club house.
How the heck do you expect a store to survive and provide those facilities -oh yes, I see, by other people paying.
Yes, parasite describes it perfectly.
No, parasite does not describe it perfectly. What if customer A comes to the store to play because customer B plays at the store? If customer A buys at the store and customer B buys online, but customer A wouldn't be at the store but for the presence of customer B...
Mik seems to be talking about, now and previously, building a community centered around the FLGS. I agree that it isn't great to buy online when you are a regular fixture of a store, and I agree that talking about buying at online discounts while in a FLGS is disrespectful, but my understanding is that if you can bring people into the store, you can more easily get people to buy from the store. That's naturally going to involve bringing in people who don't buy at the store. If you treat those potential customers as parasites, it does not make for a healthy environment.
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Post by: talljosh85
This thread has gotten more and more interesting... I have four local(ish) stores and one operates this way:
Sells hobby stuff, GW, roleplaying, etc. Everything but R/C. Next door is a bingo hall owned by the local SPCA. Every Saturday, gamers donate $2 per for a stamp to play whatever they'd like all day. The store sells at GW retail, and I respect this. They host a small tourney every month or so; the entry fee goes to prize support while its ran partially by the store and partially by a local gamer. The store provides terrain and felt; the owners often bake a huge batch of cookies and swing by frequently to say hello and see how things are going.
Personally, I buy and sell 40k online to support my hobby; mostly used and OOP items; I don't want to compete with the local shops. However, if I'm buying anything new for myself; I will go local first. This goes for codices, minis, all my paints, brushes, etc. I spend about $1k locally for myself between minis and supplies every year, and tend to spread it between the local shops, the place I play at most gets the most money; even though two of the other stores offer discounts. If I travel to the most distant of the four to play in a tourney; I'll buy drinks and something hobby related there each time; just to support a great store.
I'm fortunate enough to have several friends that play 40k, Fantasy and W/H regularly; and I also have a large; climate controlled room dedicated to my hobbies in which I can drink home brew; but there is a lot to be said for a local store. Its like being a regular at the local bar; you can always swing by and friends are there.
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Post by: Vermis
Well, in answer to earlier responses, I think game shops round here tend to work the same way as the better restaurants round here - on reputation and service rather than bypassers and big windows.
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Post by: Coldhatred
At the end of the day, all you can do is control your own habits. I, personally, buy from a FLGS near my current job every once and a while because I like to support that store as a hub for the community, and by the off chance that I can actually get a game in it will probably be there and I won't feel like a leech for doing so. I'm by no means a regular at that store, but pop in and buy something every once and a while to give them some business. Am I a sucker for paying full retail (besides GW which is 10% off)? Maybe, but my own conscience is clear based on what my father taught me to be right. Right can be all about perspective, indeed, but it's what is right to me.
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Post by: kite474
I'll admit I do about 80% of my shopping online. I will always buy something from my LGS every so often, but its usually stuff that isn't wargaming All in all i believe you should be shopping somewhat at the store if you wish to pay their, and if your really don't see if your can work something out with the owner.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Ketara wrote: Vermis wrote:Who goes to a restaurant because they happen to be passing and see a bunch of people inside...?
I do. Especially if they're old people. Old people are always local and know where the best quality joint is for best value.
Better get yourself down to Eastbourne, you will be spoiled for choice!
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Post by: kite474
 Kilkrazy wrote: Ketara wrote: Vermis wrote:Who goes to a restaurant because they happen to be passing and see a bunch of people inside...?
I do. Especially if they're old people. Old people are always local and know where the best quality joint is for best value.
Better get yourself down to Eastbourne, you will be spoiled for choice!
Better yet when it gets colder hop on down to the good old Big Easy. We guarantee you will gain 20 pounds and will lover every little second of it.
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Post by: shauni55
I've had a GW Rep get mad at me because I ordered the Clan Raukaan book from the site to be delivered. He confronted me about (he was not a very good store associate), his exact words were "Do me a favor, next time you want something buy it from the store so I can get the commission." I looked at him square in the face and said, "you don't take paypal at the store and I had a loaded account that I wanted to spend." He responded by arguing I should have withdrawn the funds and been patient and waited 4 extra days for it to reach my bank account. Told him that wasn't my problem, if he had an issue with the way the company runs things he should take them up with corporate not me. (Also the store was 30 minutes away so driving all the way to a store to preorder an item and walk out empty handed, just to return a few days later wasn't ideal).
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Post by: Davor
Platuan4th wrote: Ketara wrote:but in most cases, you quite possibly wouldn't have bought it if it hadn't been half the official price (due to being second hand).
I'm the outlier in this case. I refuse to buy pre-owned games that are still available new because I know it isn't supporting the creators and because of how places like EBGames work with regards to pre-owned.
Of course, I'm the sort that doesn't need the newest game immediately and plays vidja games so rarely these days that I can buy 1-2 games a year and still be playing the same 3-4 2 years later.
You do know that in most cases when you buy a new game, the creators don't see a cent? The person who made the game, the person who programmed the game doesn't see a bloody penny. All the money goes to the PUBLISHERS when you buy a new game. The publishers pays the developer company while the developer company pays the individual person. As I said in most cases. You think you might be supporting Blizzard, or Bungie, or who ever but the money goes to Activision or Electronic Arts. So you are supporting Publishers, not the developers.
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Post by: Platuan4th
kite474 wrote:
Better yet when it gets colder hop on down to the good old Big Easy. We guarantee you will gain 20 pounds and will lover every little second of it.
Ironically, I was skinnier when I lived in New Orleans than anywhere else in the country. Davor wrote:So you are supporting Publishers, not the developers.
I am aware, yes. I'm sorry you seem to have taken offense from the word I typed. My point is that I prefer not to support the practice of how companies like Gamestop do used games, preferring that some portion of profits go to someone involved in the game's creation/publishing over it going purely to said store.
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Post by: Davor
No offence at all Platuan4th, Just wanted to make sure you knew that. I thought the way I read your post you may have not know.
I understand your point, I do the same. I want to make sure I get sequels and support for the game I buy, so I always try to by brand new.
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Post by: Yonan
This article popped up today and might be of interest to some. A cafe where you pay $10 to play as many board games as you want - and hopefully buy some products (food and drink) while you're there. Or in other words, pay $10 to rent tablespace to play tabletop games on. Actually seems like a really cool place, damn yanks getting all the cool stuff ; p
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Post by: Platuan4th
Yonan wrote:This article popped up today and might be of interest to some. A cafe where you pay $10 to play as many board games as you want - and hopefully buy some products (food and drink) while you're there. Or in other words, pay $10 to rent tablespace to play tabletop games on. Actually seems like a really cool place, damn yanks getting all the cool stuff ; p
There's a bar here in Montgomery that supplies free games for free table space. Sure, you pay for the vidja game console usage(4 360's, 4 PS3's unless they've upgraded, and table with N64, NES, SNES, Genesis, etc.), but the boardgame space is free. All the drinks are Sci-Fi, Vidja Game, etc. themed.
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Post by: -Loki-
Yonan wrote:This article popped up today and might be of interest to some. A cafe where you pay $10 to play as many board games as you want - and hopefully buy some products (food and drink) while you're there. Or in other words, pay $10 to rent tablespace to play tabletop games on. Actually seems like a really cool place, damn yanks getting all the cool stuff ; p
My FLGS has a fully stocked and working kitchen, as well as serving coffee, with completely free gaming tables. Certainly makes it better when at lunch you can buy a burger and chips there, instead of leaving your stuff there to go hunt down somewhere to eat. Also makes 'pay where you play' easier, as even if I'm not buying anything hobby related, they're still getting money off me for food and drinks.
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Post by: Yonan
Platuan4th wrote:There's a bar here in Montgomery that supplies free games for free table space. Sure, you pay for the vidja game console usage(4 360's, 4 PS3's unless they've upgraded, and table with N64, NES, SNES, Genesis, etc.), but the boardgame space is free.
All the drinks are Sci-Fi, Vidja Game, etc. themed.
That and "esports bars" would be sweet, if I still went to bars hehe.
-Loki- wrote:My FLGS has a fully stocked and working kitchen, as well as serving coffee, with completely free gaming tables. Certainly makes it better when at lunch you can buy a burger and chips there, instead of leaving your stuff there to go hunt down somewhere to eat. Also makes 'pay where you play' easier, as even if I'm not buying anything hobby related, they're still getting money off me for food and drinks.
Sounds similar to my dream of running an Otaku shop with built in ramen bar ; )
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Post by: insaniak
-Loki- wrote:My FLGS has a fully stocked and working kitchen, as well as serving coffee, with completely free gaming tables. Certainly makes it better when at lunch you can buy a burger and chips there, instead of leaving your stuff there to go hunt down somewhere to eat. Also makes 'pay where you play' easier, as even if I'm not buying anything hobby related, they're still getting money off me for food and drinks.
This is pretty much exactly what I had always planned to do if I was ever in a position to open a games store. Make it as much a comfortable hang-out for gaming as a store...
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Post by: Yonan
Very partial to the idea of nerd heaven. The FLGS I've been to were basically retail area + card tables + large wargaming tables up the back. Occasional events. It was functional but not .... gezellig (dutch word... hard to translate, cosy comes close). I get that feeling from clubs, but I'm sure it's possible from shops and that would go a fair way to helping do it.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Given the decline in high street retail, perhaps an open game cafe or bar is a better line of business than a shop.
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Post by: Yonan
It would likely be a way of market segmentation - get the perhaps more affluent inner-city types interested more in a variety of smaller games with less barriers to entry in a nice social atmosphere. To get the tabletop wargamers you'd need lower rent premises due to the higher table space requirements, storage requirements for terrain and what not... more complicated no doubt, but even then there's a variety of wargames that are much easier in that regard such as Blood Bowl, Space Hulk, Deadzone, Dreadball and so on that straddle the line between board game and wargame and with lower time requirements for the games.
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Post by: Vertrucio
That's the idea. However, you have to be careful with a bar or cafe since the product you sell can damage the games you provide. You also need even more space, so you have the standard 4x6 foot tables, then you need places for drinks and snacks that's stable enough not to spill.
In the US, there are stricter laws about what places can sell alcoholic beverages.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
Here in London there is a very active game group called London On Board that has a Meetup page and does events nearly every day of the week, having grown from one night and one Sunday per week. They usually meet in the function rooms of pubs.
Most members are keen boardgame players and bring their own games to play, accepting the risk of damage as the price of a guaranteed supply of players.
Boardgames are more portable, and easier to set up and get into than tabletop wargames, of course...
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