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Fallen Frontiers
November 6 · Edited
Part 1/3 – Scale
During the last kickstarter there was much confusion regarding the scale of our miniatures, and this time around we want to be crystal clear: the scale of our miniatures is 35mm to the eyes. This means that a 1,80m tall human in a standing pose is 38mm tall from head to sole, which is also known as 1:48 scale (American O scale).
Using this scale allows us to do many things. It allows us to maintain realistic proportions for our miniatures without making them so small that you can’t paint them with ease, or having to bloat the head and hands resulting in cartoonish proportions. It also makes miniatures easier to produce at higher quality and with less miscasts. Finally this scale is only slightly bigger than other manufacturers, allowing you to use all of your existing terrain and storage space with ease.
All of this together means that you get high quality, easy to paint miniatures at a compatible scale, allowing us to give you the best possible hobby experience with Fallen Frontiers.
(Note that some miniatures might be smaller or bigger depending on their pose and race.)
Fallen Frontiers
November 7 · Edited
Greetings once again friends, Here we have 3 of the races next to one another for comparison. In the middle is the Sayx (Human) on the right is an Ares trooper and on the left is a Riff Berserker , the largest Riff we have seen so far in the Fallen Frontiers universe.
Compared to this pic:
Conversation on Facebook:
Fallen Frontiers wrote: Not the same base Artemis and there were no ruler. Because we know someone would complain we put all of them on the same bases.Oh, also apologies if my english is not good enough, im not the CM. This picture was an example of a mistake we did on the last campaign, the angle is not the best and was not clear. This is why we did the picture again with a ruler as some requested. The miniatures will be sized as we always said 35mm to the eyes for humans 38-39 top for troops-characters.
Artemis Black wrote: So that unpainted one is definitely the exact same size as the painted one in the other shot?
Fallen Frontiers wrote: The painted is a 3d print, the other one is a cast. They should be the almost the same.
Fallen Frontiers
19 hours ago
Part 2/3 – Material
Today we wanted to unveil the material for the production of our miniatures. It is a firm decision that the only material we will be using for the production of Fallen Frontiers is Polyurethane Resin.
Here are our reasons for choosing this material:
We can produce the miniatures in our factory in Spain, which allows us to have more control over the quality and the production process in a direct manner. We will not have to rely on a third party for production of our miniatures, and we can deliver a finished product with high quality details. It is easy to handle, has high durability, and a light weight for both playing and painting.
We want to keep the production cost under control, so we don’t need to invest in expensive tooling for plastic casting, allowing us to significantly reduce our funding goal. This means that anything over the funding goal will unlock more stretch goals that give our backers more options for physical rewards.
Scale Games has always strived to produce the very best product in both detail and material, and we feel that the use of polyurethane resin for this project will provide the players and the painters with the best material for the greatest detail and durability.
Fallen Frontiers shared a link.
18 hours ago · Edited
Hello everyone,
To give you a better look at the miniatures, here is a video showcasing their quality and durability.
(Make sure to watch it in 1080p for maximum quality.)
Fallen Frontiers FB - "All of our miniatures have been slightly re-sized since the last Kickstarter to closely match their intended proportions between races, which is why we have removed the old scale comparison images to avoid confusion."
Which makes it all a tad more confusing imo as there's now at least 3 different sized minis of the same guy knocking about between 38mm and 43mm tall but at least we're getting a slightly more clear, and honest, picture than the first time around so it's definitely a step forward
So the new Red Ares powersuit is 40mm, that Berserker is about what, 45mm maybe? And the brand new Tarko is 38mm. Shame they removed the Space Marine, he's the most ubiquitous miniature they had in previous comparison shots but this is roughly what the newly shrunken Ares powersuits should look like...
RiTides wrote: I'm very stoked for the relaunch, now that they've clarified the material will be polyurethane resin! I will definitely be backing it based on that
Indeed, the material was a huge concern last time so stating it clearly up front is another step forward.
Now that they have been clear about it though it's time to wait and see what the pricing structure will be like. Last time it was an interesting source of conversation that funding at 90k had them making like 35 thousand 40mm multipart minis in proper resin not including everything else in the game as they'd priced pretty low for such a product. If they keep that price point again that would make it one of the cheaper ones around and I might pick up some Riff myself.
Gallahad wrote: Those look so good. I love love love that unarmored guy. Great poses sculpting and design. Why why why are they running this so close to Christmas?
That does seem like an odd strategy. I could understand if they were pitching a sale at that time slot because it could be considered a Christmas gift (to oneself), but considering it might be a good many months from cash outlay to seeing actual physical product in hand.....Christmas is not a good time for pledging anything but goodwill
They may not have had much choice. After the last Kickstarter they've had to have even more sculpting and printing/painting done on the new smaller minis. That's more outlay for no return, plus essentially burning all the previous outlay on the previous stuff.
It's now or, what February maybe? January tends to be people paying off Christmas. Another 3 months of no return on all that cash spent or a Kickstarter in a non-optimum month. Tough call.
From reading the stuff that's come out in the interim it seesm they probably wanted to start sooner than this, but setting up a new shell company in the US to run a dollar-based KS has taken more time than they thought etc. So they've been forced into the above tough choice.
Artemis Black wrote: They may not have had much choice. After the last Kickstarter they've had to have even more sculpting and printing/painting done on the new smaller minis. That's more outlay for no return, plus essentially burning all the previous outlay on the previous stuff.
It's now or, what February maybe? January tends to be people paying off Christmas. Another 3 months of no return on all that cash spent or a Kickstarter in a non-optimum month. Tough call.
From reading the stuff that's come out in the interim it seesm they probably wanted to start sooner than this, but setting up a new shell company in the US to run a dollar-based KS has taken more time than they thought etc. So they've been forced into the above tough choice.
Well I guess this might lead to a scaled back project. One thing I thought I noticed (but I might be wrong) is that they're calling it a board game now, as opposed to a tabletop wargame.
Gallahad wrote: Why why why are they running this so close to Christmas?
Oddly based on the numbers, November is actually a good month for Kickstarter dollars. It has always made it harder for me but there are quite a few successful KS with November launches.
Artemis Black wrote: They may not have had much choice. After the last Kickstarter they've had to have even more sculpting and printing/painting done on the new smaller minis. That's more outlay for no return, plus essentially burning all the previous outlay on the previous stuff.
It's now or, what February maybe? January tends to be people paying off Christmas. Another 3 months of no return on all that cash spent or a Kickstarter in a non-optimum month. Tough call.
From reading the stuff that's come out in the interim it seesm they probably wanted to start sooner than this, but setting up a new shell company in the US to run a dollar-based KS has taken more time than they thought etc. So they've been forced into the above tough choice.
Well I guess this might lead to a scaled back project. One thing I thought I noticed (but I might be wrong) is that they're calling it a board game now, as opposed to a tabletop wargame.
You're not wrong, but it's always said that. Just a random choice on FB I think.
It will be interesting to see what they've got going for the pledge levels and army sizes etc though. The last Kickstarters promised 192 figures + 4 vehicles for £370. Which at 40mm+ and multipart and in high quality resin is 'insanely' cheap.
Artemis Black wrote: They may not have had much choice. After the last Kickstarter they've had to have even more sculpting and printing/painting done on the new smaller minis. That's more outlay for no return, plus essentially burning all the previous outlay on the previous stuff.
It's now or, what February maybe? January tends to be people paying off Christmas. Another 3 months of no return on all that cash spent or a Kickstarter in a non-optimum month. Tough call.
From reading the stuff that's come out in the interim it seesm they probably wanted to start sooner than this, but setting up a new shell company in the US to run a dollar-based KS has taken more time than they thought etc. So they've been forced into the above tough choice.
Well I guess this might lead to a scaled back project. One thing I thought I noticed (but I might be wrong) is that they're calling it a board game now, as opposed to a tabletop wargame.
Delephont wrote: Well I guess this might lead to a scaled back project. One thing I thought I noticed (but I might be wrong) is that they're calling it a board game now, as opposed to a tabletop wargame.
Delephont wrote: Well I guess this might lead to a scaled back project. One thing I thought I noticed (but I might be wrong) is that they're calling it a board game now, as opposed to a tabletop wargame.
Where did you read that?
It's what they call it on their FB page, but I'm pretty sure it's just a bad choice of title, I haven't read anything about them physically changing the makeup of the game.
It is true that the last time around they were as vague about the game as anything else though, I think they gave an answer to someone asking 'how many minis will we need to play' of something like '15-30' meaning one of those races is worth twice the points of one of the others and yet we haven't seen any equivalent to goblins etc.
I think the gameplay/rules are the last true question to be answered. Despite the confusion surrounding the scales it's more about them using old, even larger minis, for images than what they've said, which is that the Sayx are 38mm and the Ares and Riff are 40mm plus. And the material is resin.
It's an important one too, people buying into it as a game unto itself are a big market as the minis are generally too large to mix with most major sci-fi ranges, and scenery will still be an issue, so the game will have to be solid for gamers to buy in rather than just painters. They have said they've done a lot of work on that aspect though, which they would have to after the pamphlet put out last KS, but they haven't released anythign yet so nothing to get into
Price per model is going to be an issue here for me. I can't get anyone around here interested in Deadzone much less yet another game that will sit in my closet.
It's sad really, I love the look of the models but the scale is wrong to use as 40k (generally speaking) and as I said above, I'll have zero chance of getting people to buy a game at this price point when I can't get them to play Deadzone for free with my minis.
This is a really great start. I'm definitely looking forward to this KS!
I love it when companies that use 3D design remember to make the detail deep enough for a small miniature and not just look right on the screen. If people get miniatures like that in the end, there will be some happy pledgers.
My current plan is to get the Ares guys and put them on 40mm warmachine style bases, but now the Riff are really growing on me. Either way, now that I know they'll be high end resin they're going to get oil paint wet blended like how historical figure painters do their stuff. So even if it ends up being a board game type game, these sculpts are going to deserve the time spent to oil wet blend everything surface. They look great.
It's what they call it on their FB page, but I'm pretty sure it's just a bad choice of title, I haven't read anything about them physically changing the makeup of the game.
That is because FB only has the option for "Board Game" under the "Brands & Products" section. If you look at the "About" on the left you can see "Short Description: Wargame" and "Products: Wargame y miniaturas". When i was making the FB page for OPR i had the same problem.
frozenwastes wrote: This is a really great start. I'm definitely looking forward to this KS!
I love it when companies that use 3D design remember to make the detail deep enough for a small miniature and not just look right on the screen. If people get miniatures like that in the end, there will be some happy pledgers.
My current plan is to get the Ares guys and put them on 40mm warmachine style bases, but now the Riff are really growing on me. Either way, now that I know they'll be high end resin they're going to get oil paint wet blended like how historical figure painters do their stuff. So even if it ends up being a board game type game, these sculpts are going to deserve the time spent to oil wet blend everything surface. They look great.
Quality wise they've always been good (although bear in mind that figure above is the 40mm one) but they have excellent sculptors and I haven't heard anything bad about their resin casting. That was one of the frustrating things for me personally last time around, talent being wasted by whoever was organising the whole shebang. They have paid for some quality paintjobs too, it's all very well presented on that end, I even liked the lil 'shopped gun flashes in the battle pics.
If they have scaled the project down I'd be a lot more confident in their ability to put out the final product in the same quality. You just can't knock out tens of thousands of large scale resin figures for £1.75 each or whatever it was with no experience of such a huge undertaking. If they do just use the same pledge levels though, I'm definitely in
The price is going to have to be way higher. I'm expecting it to be around the $7 per figure range on the lower volume pledges. Considering that their price for a single 75mm Fallen Frontiers resin figure is €45/£35/$56 (plus shipping) I just don't see that many 35mm resin figures being cast for the same amount of mould material, resin and time.
So even if they give a half price equivalent discount and they can get 4 35mm miniatures for the cost of producing a 75mm figure, then we'd still be looking at $7ish per miniature.
So unless they're willing to take much lower margins on thier KS than they are on their retail products, these aren't going to cheap.
$7/£4.50 is still damn cheap for 40mm multipart resin figures of a good standard.
(Still can't bring myself to call them 35mm, that's never gonna happen )
If they use the same profit margin as their 75mm figures you're looking at about $15 a figure. So yeah they're going to have to take a serious profit cut and hope that the bulk makes up for it.
Resis such a weird material for an army style product, it's always been metal or plastic for that and resin for boutique. It will be interesting to watch. Prodos are, I think, the only other ones to go for proper resin for an army product, how's their fulfillment going?
Artemis Black wrote: $7/£4.50 is still damn cheap for 40mm multipart resin figures of a good standard.
(Still can't bring myself to call them 35mm, that's never gonna happen )
If they use the same profit margin as their 75mm figures you're looking at about $15 a figure. So yeah they're going to have to take a serious profit cut and hope that the bulk makes up for it.
Resis such a weird material for an army style product, it's always been metal or plastic for that and resin for boutique. It will be interesting to watch. Prodos are, I think, the only other ones to go for proper resin for an army product, how's their fulfillment going?
Thought this was supposed to be more of a skirmish game (max 20 minis a side) than an army scale game. Could be wrong, I didn't pay that much attention last time around.
Artemis Black wrote: $7/£4.50 is still damn cheap for 40mm multipart resin figures of a good standard.
(Still can't bring myself to call them 35mm, that's never gonna happen )
If they use the same profit margin as their 75mm figures you're looking at about $15 a figure. So yeah they're going to have to take a serious profit cut and hope that the bulk makes up for it.
Resis such a weird material for an army style product, it's always been metal or plastic for that and resin for boutique. It will be interesting to watch. Prodos are, I think, the only other ones to go for proper resin for an army product, how's their fulfillment going?
Thought this was supposed to be more of a skirmish game (max 20 minis a side) than an army scale game. Could be wrong, I didn't pay that much attention last time around.
Yeah, I guess that would be a better description (although the only word so far has been "15-30" rather than 20 max). Still the domain of metal and plastic usually though.
I'm not sure yet whether I'm going to care about the game rules, but I've always wanted some really nice 40mm or so power armour guys (ever since the first true-scale marine conversions started popping up) so I might get some for whatever sci-fi skirmish purposes I feel like using them for (SuperSystem or whatever).
The Riff though look pretty awesome. They're like orks but without the scrap metal obsession
Wonder what the pledge levels are going to be like. They know mini's collectors have an interest in this so wonder if they will make figures only pledges.
So, they're smaller now? There was so much scale speculation and misinformation going around last time around my eyes glazed over and I wound up passing on the game. If they offer the same kind of add-ons that they did last time, I might throw down at the very least for those heavy armor Juggernaut looking Riff.
They asked the question on the old style vehicles in the supporters group and after checking the post maybe 50/50 approval. I thought they looked too fisher price myself which I am boring myself saying. (Gawd am I turning into Artemis) They did respond saying the vehicles are up in the air at the moment and have not decided on them yet. Actually that's a good question to direct to them about it. Good piece of discussion if I can remember came out about vehicles or dropships etc as being objective points makes for some good eye candy on a map.
Although I like the Idea of power suited heavy infantry its done to death but makes for good eye candy. Much like bikini chainmail figures which I'm not a fan off.
@Malkaven
Going to be run in Dollars.
@Barzam
They are going to be 1/48 minis (35mm) for the humans other factions could get bigger.
For those wondering about the vehicle, here it is from the last KS. I'm putting it in spoiler tags so that people who are skimming the thread won't think it's from this new KS.
Spoiler:
NOT FROM THIS KICKSTARTER
NOT FROM THIS KICKSTARTER
My thinking is that vehicles aren't quite the first thing to go for in 1/48. I think larger power armour, robots, jet packs and maybe motorcycles are what to make before you make any cars or tanks.
My thinking is that vehicles aren't quite the first thing to go for in 1/48. I think larger power armour, robots, jet packs and maybe motorcycles are what to make before you make any cars or tanks.
The artwork/renders to date would seem to back this up!
It has already been suggested about speeder bikes and such whether they do anything with it is another thing. Airfix do 2x 1/48 quads for less than a tenner that could be easily converted. In fact airfix's afghanistan support vehicles in 1/48 are the business well worth a look.
Gallahad wrote: Those look so good. I love love love that unarmored guy. Great poses sculpting and design. Why why why are they running this so close to Christmas?
Gallahad wrote: Those look so good. I love love love that unarmored guy. Great poses sculpting and design. Why why why are they running this so close to Christmas?
1 dollar place holders
Get Christmas money
pimp put the pledge manager
then play the waiting game?
That's all well and good, but if everyone does that (and increasingly on these things, why wouldn't you?) the thing won't actually fund! Or will just scrape over funding, meaning no nice stretch goals. Hence why time of year is possibly going to be a factor for the success of the project. I agree that there may be other factors forcing the issue of when to launch though, and at least they won't be running up against a CMON or Sci-Fi Mantic one.
That's all well and good, but if everyone does that (and increasingly on these things, why wouldn't you?) the thing won't actually fund! Or will just scrape over funding, meaning no nice stretch goals
Somehow I doubt that the majority of backers have the discipline to pledge only a $1 and increase after the campaign ends. "If everybody does that" just isn't going to be a reality for most projects. People love to get excited about things and wrapped up in a campaign. The reason KS works at all is that people want to belong more than they want to make the smartest move in a given situation. And even then, as you pointed out, stretch goals can be an incentive for pledging.
Bioptic wrote: That's all well and good, but if everyone does that (and increasingly on these things, why wouldn't you?) the thing won't actually fund! Or will just scrape over funding, meaning no nice stretch goals. Hence why time of year is possibly going to be a factor for the success of the project. I agree that there may be other factors forcing the issue of when to launch though, and at least they won't be running up against a CMON or Sci-Fi Mantic one.
Not everyone celebrates the holidays or christmas in the same way. There is a large population, even in the US, in the world that don't celebrate the holidays by buying others presents. So it won't be an issue for everyone. Then you have some people who get their other halves to buy them KS presents too. In my case I have 2 children and will be spending quite a bit on presents but fortunately I already have the majority of them bought. I tend to do shopping early, except for a couple items which I expect a better sales price.
I agree that there may be other factors forcing the issue of when to launch though, and at least they won't be running up against a CMON or Sci-Fi Mantic one.
You never know. Both Mantic and CMoN have popped unexpected KS projects on us recently, with SMOG and the Mantic "mini" project.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dark Severance wrote: In my case I have 2 children and will be spending quite a bit on presents but fortunately I already have the majority of them bought. I tend to do shopping early, except for a couple items which I expect a better sales price.
I do the same.
I'll have my shopping done LONG before Dec 15th, or whenever this ends, rolls around.
Hell, I've already got about 75% of my shopping done.
Speaking of presents... I wonder if Dakka has ever done some sort of secret santa gift exchange thing. That seems like it would be an interesting thing to participate in. Of course it would probably end up being everyone dumping what crappy miniature they don't want but still seems like a good community building experience. I'll stop thinking out loud now.
Speaking of presents... I wonder if Dakka has ever done some sort of secret santa gift exchange thing. That seems like it would be an interesting thing to participate in. Of course it would probably end up being everyone dumping what crappy miniature they don't want but still seems like a good community building experience. I'll stop thinking out loud now.
You might want to have a closer look over there in the DCM forum...
Alpharius wrote: You might want to have a closer look over there in the DCM forum...
On topic here - is it Friday yet?!?!?
Nice! That sounds like a fun thing. I haven't really spent much time over, guess I should pop over more often. I do see one for 2013, doesn't look like anyone has started one for 2014 though, unless I missed it.
FF's Facebook Page wrote:Part 3/3 – Rules
During our past campaign we had posted up our work in progress rules already, however they were not translated properly which caused a lot of confusion. Over the past months we have been working hard on tweaking the rules and getting them properly translated, and we have been playtesting with people from all over the world to ensure a well balanced, fun and competitively sound game.
In a nutshell the game focuses on small forces fighting over precious resources whilst being lead by heroes that influence how units behave. The game is played with 10-20 miniatures per side at its base, but can easily be expanded to have larger games with 40-50 miniatures per side.
At its core there are three pillars: heroes & units, resource collection and a deck of cards. Heroes are powerful characters that boost the performance of the units they are leading, and that bring powerful weaponry or army-wide special rules.
Resources are collected actively by capturing areas of the table to harvest Krithium, and passively by backing your army with a good leadership to receive Command points. These resources can then be spent to do various things, from boosting your dice rolls to playing powerful cards that can change the outcome of battle.
The game is still in development and some details may change, but these core elements will always remain. We will make sure to provide you with an early look at the rules as soon as possible!
(The image shows two small forces ready for playtesting; note that the gaming mat and all terrain except for the trees will be available in our kickstarter.)
What is everyone's thoughts about collecting Krithium and then using it to boost things during the game?
I find it a bit too RTS for my liking. If Krithium is *the stuff* for military conflicts, then send in your troops with a supply. I do like adding a resource management and capturing aspect to the game though.
Primarily I'm interested in the miniatures though.
I thought the back story wasn't that bad, its not Asimov but what do you expect, the animation from the last campaign was rather professional looking with a rather easy on the ear voice over.
They are doing a pretty good job this time in keeping the momentum going for the fans, like in the support group, to bring other folk in.
I'm just waiting to see if we get these guys, the riffs are doing it for me.
What is everyone's thoughts about collecting Krithium and then using it to boost things during the game?
I find it a bit too RTS for my liking. If Krithium is *the stuff* for military conflicts, then send in your troops with a supply. I do like adding a resource management and capturing aspect to the game though.
Primarily I'm interested in the miniatures though.
Seems an odd mechanic for a skirmish game rather than an army game. 10 miniatures each, in a game based on squads, so that seems to be 2 squads, and you have to go and collect resources.
I don't see any actual rules either, just a collection of basic game ideas, resource collecting, herohammer/warmahordes based heroes 'and' cards too. I expected more considering 4 months have passed since the first time around.
Alpharius wrote: Well, to be fair, we might actually see a lot more when this launches tomorrow!
This so much this. So many stupid arguments going on at the moment about whether they have done or not done. Let's wait for facts rather than continue with baseless speculation.
Alpharius wrote: Well, to be fair, we might actually see a lot more when this launches tomorrow!
This so much this. So many stupid arguments going on at the moment about whether they have done or not done. Let's wait for facts rather than continue with baseless speculation.
It's not really baseless though is it, aren't FF asking us to speculate and be excited etc. by virtue of actually releasing what they have? We're not just pulling things out of thin air here, we're commenting on official releases.
Alpharius wrote: Well, to be fair, we might actually see a lot more when this launches tomorrow!
This so much this. So many stupid arguments going on at the moment about whether they have done or not done. Let's wait for facts rather than continue with baseless speculation.
It's not really baseless though is it, aren't FF asking us to speculate and be excited etc. by virtue of actually releasing what they have? We're not just pulling things out of thin air here, we're commenting on official releases.
Also, I don't see any arguments
Well it is baseless speculation when people start complaining that SG are lying until they release information saying one way or another. I have seen you doing this several times but I don't want to go down that route.
Pilgrim_uk wrote: If we didnt have artemis who else would folk pick on. Takes the pressure off the rest of our "negative" comments.
If there is one race thats not doing it for me its the Harversters. Although one of the back stories from a commander unit (I think) appealed to me.
Definately though Riff first then Sayx.. Hopefully a pledge for figures only would be good.
True although I still think you should state on this thread as soon as possible that is a manager of another miniature company which are planning to launch a KS very soon. But anyway back to the game.
I felt with the KS that all the race had one models that really interested me and the rest was just ok or good but certainly not as impressive. But at the end of the game we all are different and have different tastes so I think the answer is allowing us to pick the models we like
so I think the answer is allowing us to pick the models we like
This is the reason I would like to see a collectors pledge. (Soon enough we will find out). As you said I would like to pick my mini's even paying above the odds over box set gamers.
Although there is the other side it would be a bit of an administration hell doing a collectors pledge. So I can understand keeping it simple.
so I think the answer is allowing us to pick the models we like
This is the reason I would like to see a collectors pledge. (Soon enough we will find out). As you said I would like to pick my mini's even paying above the odds over box set gamers.
Although there is the other side it would be a bit of an administration hell doing a collectors pledge. So I can understand keeping it simple.
Yes I can understand that. I guess it will depend as well whether they plan to release the squads as individual boxes later on. I am keeping my fingers crossed though for one as I doubt I will be able to afford the full pledge this time.
Alpharius wrote: Well, to be fair, we might actually see a lot more when this launches tomorrow!
This so much this. So many stupid arguments going on at the moment about whether they have done or not done. Let's wait for facts rather than continue with baseless speculation.
It's not really baseless though is it, aren't FF asking us to speculate and be excited etc. by virtue of actually releasing what they have? We're not just pulling things out of thin air here, we're commenting on official releases.
Also, I don't see any arguments
Well it is baseless speculation when people start complaining that SG are lying until they release information saying one way or another. I have seen you doing this several times but I don't want to go down that route.
The 'lying' comments were about prior to this rebooted Kickstarter, and they've since pretty much outright admitted it anyway. Hard to argue with 'we've made our minis smaller' and showing them as the size the previously claimed they were. That means they lied the first time around, just like I suggested they were.
However in this reboot they haven't lied about anything as far as I can see, my complaints were more of a 'please stop using larger minis without clarifiying they are indeed larger, it's confusing' and that personally I would never call this game "35mm" in a million years.
Pilgrim_uk wrote: If we didnt have artemis who else would folk pick on. Takes the pressure off the rest of our "negative" comments.
If there is one race thats not doing it for me its the Harversters. Although one of the back stories from a commander unit (I think) appealed to me.
Definately though Riff first then Sayx.. Hopefully a pledge for figures only would be good.
True although I still think you should state on this thread as soon as possible that is a manager of another miniature company which are planning to launch a KS very soon. But anyway back to the game.
We're not, that would be a lie by someone in an FF Supporters group. We have been planning a KS publically for about a year now but it's not for a sci-fi game, it's not for 40mm miniatures and it's not happening soon, not even in the next 6 months I would guess.
The fact that I'm a manager of a miniaturescompany is well known, it's literally written everywhere I use this name and in the last FF thread people were openly asking me to contribute to the company thread elsewhere on Dakka, it's not a secret to be revealed like an old Sherlock Holmes mystery.
I feel you have gathered your information fom the wrong sources
Alpharius wrote: Well, to be fair, we might actually see a lot more when this launches tomorrow!
This so much this. So many stupid arguments going on at the moment about whether they have done or not done. Let's wait for facts rather than continue with baseless speculation.
It's not really baseless though is it, aren't FF asking us to speculate and be excited etc. by virtue of actually releasing what they have? We're not just pulling things out of thin air here, we're commenting on official releases.
Also, I don't see any arguments
Well it is baseless speculation when people start complaining that SG are lying until they release information saying one way or another. I have seen you doing this several times but I don't want to go down that route.
The 'lying' comments were about prior to this rebooted Kickstarter, and they've since pretty much outright admitted it anyway. Hard to argue with 'we've made our minis smaller' and showing them as the size the previously claimed they were. That means they lied the first time around, just like I suggested they were.
However in this reboot they haven't lied about anything as far as I can see, my complaints were more of a 'please stop using larger minis without clarifiying they are indeed larger, it's confusing' and that personally I would never call this game "35mm" in a million years.
Do you have any proof that the minis they would have shipped to the backers were not the scale they said it would be? Also your continuation of using 35mm and keep saying it is a lie does not help with clarity.
They never said their scale was 35mm if you check their previous KS page it is there pretty explicity stated:
"At Scale games we have chosen to scale O (O gauge), where 7 mm correspond to 1 foot.
In this way a model of 1.80 m (6.8 ft) in reality, will measure 40 mm in total.
When we say that a human is 35 mm in FF we refer up to the eyes, not total, since is commonly used as a standard among brands selling kits of 54 or 75mm."
As someone who works on the miniature world you should know better than anyone what scale means: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scale_(ratio)
It is also funny that you said you would stop the complains about the scale as soon as they would post a photo with a model and a ruler next to it. But as soon as that was done you simply found more and more problems. Hopefully you will behave this time and stop sending messages to convince people to drop their pledges or even worst insult the ones who do things to support Fallen Frontiers.
Do you have any proof that the minis they would have shipped to the backers were not the scale they said it would be? Also your continuation of using 35mm and keep saying it is a lie does not help with clarity.
Why would I need proof of that, I never stated otherwise. I have no idea what people would get in the end, they could have gotten 35mm minis or 95mm minis for all I know, as it wasn't relevant to my complaint it wasn't brought up.
In the 'last' kickstarter they claimed that the minis they were showing were 35mm, repeatedly. That his since turned out to not be true. This is just a fact. I'm sorry you don't seem to like it but thats not really my problem.
Bacms wrote: They never said their scale was 35mm if you check their previous KS page it is there pretty explicity stated:
"At Scale games we have chosen to scale O (O gauge), where 7 mm correspond to 1 foot.
In this way a model of 1.80 m (6.8 ft) in reality, will measure 40 mm in total.
When we say that a human is 35 mm in FF we refer up to the eyes, not total, since is commonly used as a standard among brands selling kits of 54 or 75mm."
That's what their KS page ended at, it is not what it stated before and during the first days of the KS. Again, this was all fairly well documented in the previous thread.
Bacms wrote: As someone who works on the miniature world you should know better than anyone what scale means: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scale_(ratio)
It is also funny that you said you would stop the complains about the scale as soon as they would post a photo with a model and a ruler next to it. But as soon as that was done you simply found more and more problems. Hopefully you will behave this time and stop sending messages to convince people to drop their pledges or even worst insult the ones who do things to support Fallen Frontiers.
As someone who works in the miniatures world I am very aware of the necessity to make your 'scale' or miniatures sizes transparent and answer any questions about such succinctly and correctly.
I also did not state what you claimed, I am unlikely to stop asking them to call a miniature 35mm because they posted a photo of a 'completely different miniature' that is 35mm to the eyes only and then stated that the one I have always meant was in fact taller. I have no need to ask them any more how big the other minis were because they have openly admitted they were larger and therefore not 35mm in any way i.e. I, and plenty of others, were correct and that they won't be using them in the new kickstarter anyway.
And, of course, I have not sent anyone any messages trying to get them to drop their pledges, another lie. You seem to be racking them up so far.
If you would like this KS to succeed it's probably best not to fill up threads about it with lies and implied insults about other users who are talking about it. As can be seen from the last kickstarter 'and' the closed thread here it simply doesn't work that way. I have asked fairly basic questions about it and my comments about this reboot have been considerably more positive than last time 'because' they have been more upfront with answers. Not as upfront as I personally would like but nothing like last time where they seemed to have 8 different answers for every question. Conversely their supporters, like yourself, have been overwhelmingly negative towards anyone asking such questions. Guess which one does more damage to a product?
We will not be rehashing all of that discussion here. In this thread, please limit discussion to the current campaign. Accusations of lying, or otherwise "stirring up" people in this thread, will simply not be tolerated. Posts of this nature will be edited or deleted. Every company deserves the right to stand or fall on its own merits, and this thread will be for discussing the current campaign only.
If you want to have more general discussions about the company, or general business practices in the miniatures industry, etc please start a separate thread in Dakka Discussions.
I think this note should be very clear, but PM me with any questions... and this will be enforced in this thread from this point forward.
At this point, it is probably best to wait the remaining 2 hours until the reboot launches so we can actually see what this campaign will offer, and how it will be presented.
If you can't wait, the previously linked to closed thread has a lot of that detail in it - but again, it is about the canceled Kickstarter and what's in there may or may not hold true here.
Artemis Black wrote: personally I would never call this game "35mm" in a million years.
Just out of curiosity, may i ask why?
I'll answer this succinctly due to the big red warning above you, longer discussion can be found in the previous thread.
So far, of all the miniatures FF have shown actualy made, the smallest race, the Sayx, are shown as 35mm to the eyes only, or 38mm tall. The rest of the minis currently shown as a real product not a render, are 40mm or even considerably taller. I wouldn't describe a games scales to the eyes in the first place, but even if I did I'd try for more of an average than just using one race who happens to be the shortest. To me this will always be a 40mm game, to avoid confusion at the least and accusations of being misleading to garner more sales at the worst.
This is not just a negative either. It will avoid disgruntled customers. Painters don't care so much about size so that group is fine, but gamers have scenery to use and other minis they may want to match with. Being as clear as possible is always best for your own product.
So far we've only seen the two ruler shots, the above complaint may fade into obscurity if the campaign launch sees a bunch more etc. Couple hours to go yet
Artemis Black wrote: I wouldn't describe a games scales to the eyes in the first place, but even if I did I'd try for more of an average than just using one race who happens to be the shortest.
I am pretty sure they confirmed that 2 out of 4 races are 35mm to the eye, namely the sayx and the harvesters. I also find it very strange that you "wouldn't describe a games scale to the eyes", when that is the de facto standard in the wargaming industry.
There is actually a very good reason why miniatures are measured from the sole to the eyes; from wikipedia: "Often known as "to-the-eye" scale, this method of measurement allows wargamers to judge the comparative height of a miniature without having to estimate the actual height of the head which is usually often covered in some sort of military headgear.".
Also so far we haven't seen the other races close to a ruler so until then saying other races are taller is baseless speculation and based on the idea that the other Tarko Stahlen we have seen is a different scale and not simply an alternative model. Let's wait for the KS before jumping into certainties about size.
Artemis Black wrote: I wouldn't describe a games scales to the eyes in the first place, but even if I did I'd try for more of an average than just using one race who happens to be the shortest.
I am pretty sure they confirmed that 2 out of 4 races are 35mm to the eye, namely the sayx and the harvesters. I also find it very strange that you "wouldn't describe a games scale to the eyes", when that is the de facto standard in the wargaming industry.
There is actually a very good reason why miniatures are measured from the sole to the eyes; from wikipedia: "Often known as "to-the-eye" scale, this method of measurement allows wargamers to judge the comparative height of a miniature without having to estimate the actual height of the head which is usually often covered in some sort of military headgear.".
I wouldn't because it's not the defacto standard, especially not in the modern industry, there hasn't been a defacto standard in years. Normally miniature companies who sell larger minis use to the eyes and miniature companies who sell smaller minis use the actual height. There's obviously a marketing reason for that Generally though everyone who uses the mythical '28mm scale' or '30mm scale' or something similar can be mixed. When someone uses 35mm, in my opinion, they are trying to slide into the top end of that group as if someone asks you how tall a Space Marine miniature is the answer you, or most people, would give is 33mm. That''s very close to 35mm and you might think they'd look similar to one another, but of course this game starts at 38mm and climbs from there, which is not close at all. Hence I wouldn't ever call it a 35mm game, I'd have to continuously add 'to the eyes' to avoid confusion and point out 'but this race are 40/45/whatever. use a 40mm tag and the majority of that confusion goes away. The Sayx (and possible Harvesters) are close enough to count, the other races are already that and peopel know they won't mix with their existing GW/Infinity/Etc. minis and that they may need bigger scenery.
I can also tell you that in 20 years no customer has ever asked me what height a mini is to the eyes, they always ask how tall. Which in the English language means to the top of your head. That's what I always give them and never once have I received a complaint saying I had given them an incorrect measurement.
As for the Harvester, yes they have said they will be scaled the same as the Sayx which is why I went out of my way to point out we haven't seen one yet. If we do see one and it measures 35mm to the eyes then yes, 2 of the 4 races will be that, the other 2 will be still be 40-50mm. Considering the massive amounts of random information given previously, and an incorrect scale comparison photo given this time around (the red Ares pic) I wasn't prepared to give the benefit of the doubt. Others might as is their prerogative.
We use it 'on that miniature' because she has a mohican so it's a shorter alternative than '25mm to the top of her head but not to the top of her hair' etc. Plus I didn't write that particular description or it may have said the long form anyway (Now that you've pointed it out to me it'll be changed after our premisesmove) However you will note it goes out of it's way to actually 'say' to the eye', it doesn't just say '25mm scale' and make you guess what that means.
Bacms wrote: Also so far we haven't seen the other races close to a ruler so until then saying other races are taller is baseless speculation and based on the idea that the other Tarko Stahlen we have seen is a different scale and not simply an alternative model. Let's wait for the KS before jumping into certainties about size.
We have seen the newer Ares powersuit next to a ruler, so I'm afraid that's incorrect.
So far, of all the miniatures FF have shown actualy made, the smallest race, the Sayx, are shown as 35mm to the eyes only, or 38mm tall. The rest of the minis currently shown as a real product not a render, are 40mm or even considerably taller. I wouldn't describe a games scales to the eyes in the first place, but even if I did I'd try for more of an average than just using one race who happens to be the shortest. To me this will always be a 40mm game, to avoid confusion at the least and accusations of being misleading to garner more sales at the worst.
You seem to be the only one making this particular complaint.
I thought it pretty obvious (and normal) why they used those figures: They are the base human (essentially). I don't believe I've ever seen any other wargame company (including Hasslefree) use a figure other than an human as their baseline.
I find it odd that you find it odd...
The other misinformation (intentional or not) was an issue though.
So far, of all the miniatures FF have shown actualy made, the smallest race, the Sayx, are shown as 35mm to the eyes only, or 38mm tall. The rest of the minis currently shown as a real product not a render, are 40mm or even considerably taller. I wouldn't describe a games scales to the eyes in the first place, but even if I did I'd try for more of an average than just using one race who happens to be the shortest. To me this will always be a 40mm game, to avoid confusion at the least and accusations of being misleading to garner more sales at the worst.
You seem to be the only one making this particular complaint.
I thought it pretty obvious (and normal) why they used those figures: They are the base human (essentially). I don't believe I've ever seen any other wargame company (including Hasslefree) use a figure other than an human as their baseline.
I find it odd that you find it odd...
The other misinformation (intentional or not) was an issue though.
Looking forward to the campaign start.
~Eric
(I am currently the only one making this complaint in this thread, I may not be after the launch but last time around you can see for yourself elsewhere that I was far from it).
I guess my issue with this particular one is that in most games the Humans aren't the short people. In most wargames humans 'are' the defualt race and multiple other races are the same height with very few being obviously taller. It's hardly a major complaint, I was specifically asked why I would't call them 35mm and that's why. It's pushing it if all the races were the same height as the Sayx but when 50% of yoru core box set is 40mm or taller (Those Riff Berserkers seem like theyd' be closer to 50mm if they stood up) it's odd to not only call your game the shorter of the races but also make it seem even smaler by using a 'to the eyes' measurement. If I was a passing customer who didn't do a lot of research and just saw '35mm game' I don't think I'd be too stupid to assume they may match ok with companies like Infinity or GW where minis are regularly 33mm+ 'tall'.
Whether or not these minis will match with minis and scenery you may already own is obviously an issue that will matter to a lot of potential pledgers, mostly gamers. Putting the most clear information possible about the size out there is therefore advantageous. I seem to have drawn ire from some cheerleaders for what, to me, seems like pretty solid business advice.
We use it 'on that miniature' because she has a mohican so it's a shorter alternative than '25mm to the top of her head but not to the top of her hair' etc. Plus I didn't write that particular description or it may have said the long form anyway (Now that you've pointed it out to me it'll be changed after our premisesmove) However you will note it goes out of it's way to actually 'say' to the eye', it doesn't just say '25mm scale' and make you guess what that means.
In that case you may need to change a few more as for example this one or his one which does not have any type of special hair
Bacms wrote: Also so far we haven't seen the other races close to a ruler so until then saying other races are taller is baseless speculation and based on the idea that the other Tarko Stahlen we have seen is a different scale and not simply an alternative model. Let's wait for the KS before jumping into certainties about size.
We have seen the newer Ares powersuit next to a ruler, so I'm afraid that's incorrect.
Sorry somehow I missed that one as I don't remember seeing it on the official page I stand corrected in that case.
We use it 'on that miniature' because she has a mohican so it's a shorter alternative than '25mm to the top of her head but not to the top of her hair' etc. Plus I didn't write that particular description or it may have said the long form anyway (Now that you've pointed it out to me it'll be changed after our premisesmove) However you will note it goes out of it's way to actually 'say' to the eye', it doesn't just say '25mm scale' and make you guess what that means.
In that case you may need to change a few more as for example this one or his one which does not have any type of special hair
Ta, I will. As stated above though, they go quite clearly out of their way to make sure that the customer understands it is 'to the eye'. You may find more, if you wanna go through the whole site and save me a job you are more than welcome Probably just PM me though.
I'm not piling on, just so I'm clear. You seem like a solid guy in all of the conversations I've read with you in them.
I honestly can't think of any other game where the humans are the shortarses, so I don't have that example to give you. Humans, as a rule are extremely ego-centric. Using an human as a reference point, even in a game with more races who are taller, just makes sense to me. Guess that's where the disconnect is.
I know that you were far from the only one with issues about scale. I meant I don't recall seeing anyone else taking issue with using an human as the baseline for measurement.
Taarnak wrote: I'm not piling on, just so I'm clear. You seem like a solid guy in all of the conversations I've read with you in them.
I honestly can't think of any other game where the humans are the shortarses, so I don't have that example to give you. Humans, as a rule are extremely ego-centric. Using an human as a reference point, even in a game with more races who are taller, just makes sense to me. Guess that's where the disconnect is.
I know that you were far from the only one with issues about scale. I meant I don't recall seeing anyone else taking issue with using an human as the baseline for measurement.
Hope that makes what I'm saying clearer.
~Eric
No, it's fine. I even agree, it's tough to think of a game where humans weren't either the average race or at least taller than the other races (dwarf/goblin/halflings etc). So they had that as a problem to start with. The dual problem is that as well as humans being short they have gone for the shorter of the two methods of measuring thus making the (my?) problem doubly pronounced.
Seeing as some of my less-than-fans keep bringing up that I work for a company, here's an example using it. If someone asked us how tall our recent sci-fi troopers were I would answer them, accurately, '34mm' I 'might' say '34mm to the top of their helmet' if I was feeling particularly wordy. So now the they have that and they check out this new kickstarter with Sci-Fi troops they like, think they might get some Riff or whatever to fight our troopers and see that the game is '35mm scale'. When they actually get the Riff they would make our miniatures look like midgets and one of our companies is getting a return. Did either of us lie, no, not really, but 'm comfortable with saying that it wouldn't have been me who was the misleading one nor is it likely I'd get a complaint if the customer was the kind to make one.
This obviously applies to GW with their 33mm Space marines and Inifnity and Privateer and any other company from our scale range. FF are not in our scale range, at all. If they don't make that clear then, to me, it's notonly just daft but misleading enough to cause problems down the line.
Can we all then just agree that the best way to avoid confusion with the scale is to say to people that ScaleGames is using the Scale O where 7 mm correspond to 1 foot. And as such as far we know the human race is 35mm to the eye and 38mm to the top while Are is 40mm tall. As for the other two races we haven't received any information about the total height.
Bacms wrote: Can we all then just agree that the best way to avoid confusion with the scale is to say to people that ScaleGames is using the Scale O where 7 mm correspond to 1 foot. And as such as far we know the human race is 35mm to the eye and 38mm to the top while Are is 40mm tall. As for the other two races we haven't received any information about the total height.
That's the (rather stupid) information from last Kickstarter. If 7mm was 1ft then you just said that the Human race averages 5ft to the eye if the figures are 35mm to the eye.
They have since said this new KS will use 'american O scale', or 1:48. That is indeed ~35mm to the eye or 38mm tall for an average human.
And the problem with it is that the average gamer doesn't use scale modelling scales, they use 'mm'. And I have no problem at all with them describing their Sayx as 35mm to the ey, it's quite correct. We'll see what the FAQ on the new KS says in a little while.
Starter set looks like a great deal. The higher level pledges were better value for money last kickstarter, however I guess a lot of the details weren't finalised. Torn between 290 and extras, or going nuts.
Someone needs to break those pledge levels down quickly to see if that $290 pledge is 'worth it' or if it is better off to go in at a lower one and throw in the addons?
Zond wrote: Starter set looks like a great deal. The higher level pledges were better value for money last kickstarter, however I guess a lot of the details weren't finalised. Torn between 290 and extras, or going nuts.
Some annoying maths involved in the higher pledge levels this time around.
Say $100 for the main box set, that contains 34 minis. The Elite $290 pledge only seems to contain another 34 minis. So it seems on a cursory glance that the higher level pledges don't really save much, if anything, on buying the basic game and then the add ons separately. I'd have to do a bunch of math to double check that which I'm hoping someone else does while I think about it
I suppose, after telling people to buy the box set, I should point out that it seems tha once again they are using their 75mm minis for advertising without mentioning it which remains a dodgy marketing tactic imo.
I think this campaign could really do with a customisable starter set. Even if you don't get fancy packaging, allowing people to choose 2 factions worth of 10 to 15 figures with the officers and heroes might go down well. Especially if someone could double down on the faction they want the most. I understand if that's not feasible logistically however.
Someone needs to break those pledge levels down quickly to see if that $290 pledge is 'worth it' or if it is better off to go in at a lower one and throw in the addons?
Someone needs to break those pledge levels down quickly to see if that $290 pledge is 'worth it' or if it is better off to go in at a lower one and throw in the addons?
Malkaven wrote: Maybe throw shipping charges in those calcs since its different per pledge.
I'll throw in shipping once I get it completed. Do you want a break down of costs per miniature with shipping or just keep shipping separate?
Alpharius wrote: Are those high level pledges taking into account the minis in the game starter box?
The higher level pledges are including the miniatures in the main box. That is why Faction even though a higher amount was placed above the Core Box pledge... so moving forward I just include the totals from that range (if that makes sense).
Are you more interested in breakdown of individual miniature cost without scenery?
I'm including total price and savings based on if you just bought them straight out as add-ons. Since I know the scenery cost, I can subtract that from the pledge level to get an accurate cost per mini without scenery in the pledge or do you want a cost per mini including scenery?
To be fair, i this funds to the same amount as they cancelled on last time, they'll have to hand cast like 30-40 thousand 40mm multipart resin minis. That's going to take some time
Can anyone see which part of the KS is being made in China btw? Theres a China warning at the end but minis are in-house, is it the card scenery or something?
Piston Honda wrote: Curious to know if they got a jump tart on casting some of the minis already? Basic troops they know will be part of the box set.
I doubt it, if they are keeping to these new size they will have to have resculpted, reprinted and remoulded all of those painted minis you see on the KS page, those are the old larger ones.
They haven't even got a painted version of the newly shrunk Tarko Stahlen from the comparison shot as they are using the 40mm one in the advertising.
They haven't even sculpted most of the minis etc, most of them are drawings, there's a few renders and there are 'still' some bloody 75mm minis.
(You 'cannot' just print out larger scale minis smaller and have them look the same no matter how many ill-informed people say so)
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Alpharius wrote: I'd bet it is the cards, tokens, boxes, packaging, etc.
Just confirmed in the comments. Odd area to save money, printed cardboard, when you have tens of thousands of minis to produce
Piston Honda wrote: Curious to know if they got a jump tart on casting some of the minis already? Basic troops they know will be part of the box set.
I doubt it, if they are keeping to these new size they will have to have resculpted, reprinted and remoulded all of those painted minis you see on the KS page, those are the old larger ones.
They haven't even got a painted version of the newly shrunk Tarko Stahlen from the comparison shot as they are using the 40mm one in the advertising.
They haven't even sculpted most of the minis etc, most of them are drawings, there's a few renders and there are 'still' some bloody 75mm minis.
(You 'cannot' just print out larger scale minis smaller and have them look the same no matter how many ill-informed people say so)
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Alpharius wrote: I'd bet it is the cards, tokens, boxes, packaging, etc.
Just confirmed in the comments. Odd area to save money, printed cardboard, when you have tens of thousands of minis to produce
They are re-scaled? are there any photos for confirmation. I didn't notice.
Piston Honda wrote: Curious to know if they got a jump tart on casting some of the minis already? Basic troops they know will be part of the box set.
I doubt it, if they are keeping to these new size they will have to have resculpted, reprinted and remoulded all of those painted minis you see on the KS page, those are the old larger ones.
They haven't even got a painted version of the newly shrunk Tarko Stahlen from the comparison shot as they are using the 40mm one in the advertising.
They haven't even sculpted most of the minis etc, most of them are drawings, there's a few renders and there are 'still' some bloody 75mm minis.
(You 'cannot' just print out larger scale minis smaller and have them look the same no matter how many ill-informed people say so)
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Alpharius wrote: I'd bet it is the cards, tokens, boxes, packaging, etc.
Just confirmed in the comments. Odd area to save money, printed cardboard, when you have tens of thousands of minis to produce
They are re-scaled? are there any photos for confirmation. I didn't notice.
RiTides wrote: It has already funded! I'm still just in for $1 as I'd like to watch this progress, but I am glad they've been able to effectively relaunch this.
I believe the first KS made well over $50k in he first day so as they've reducde the goal to less than a third of the previous one it would have been a 'huge' shock if they hadnt funded pretty easily.
But I do remember being a much slower rise on the first day. This time more people were prepared since it was advertised some time in advance
I don't believe Kicktraq works on a 'start at 0hr and go for 24hr' basis. I think it goes by calendar days. So a big chunk of the 'day 2' would have been in the first 24 hrs too.
I do not understand the whole UK company, miniatures produced in Spain, components in China and the KS page says it is based in Round Rock Texas? Where are they from?
Thraxas Of Turai wrote: I do not understand the whole UK company, miniatures produced in Spain, components in China and the KS page says it is based in Round Rock Texas? Where are they from?
They are Spanish. They opened a shell company in the UK (Just some paperwork and a PO box) to use the UK version of Kickstarter the last time around and this time around have opened a shell company in the US (presumably Texas) to use the US version of Kickstarter. Dollar kickstarters tends to do better, I guess Americans don't like to do math
So they plan to produce miniatures in house i.e. in Spain with some component of the game outsourced to China.
Thraxas Of Turai wrote: I do not understand the whole UK company, miniatures produced in Spain, components in China and the KS page says it is based in Round Rock Texas? Where are they from?
They are Spanish company but in order to do a $US Kickstarter they had to open a warehouse/branch in the US. They will also stated all their resin production is in house in Spain but cards/tokens/rulebook etc is being produced in China as 90% of all the KS do, as it is a lot cheaper.
@ArtemisBlack you might be right guess we will know for sure in a few hours. Nonetheless it is excellent news to everyone that we got the funding goal done and are now chasing stretch goals as they should keep the steam going hence more minis for everyone
Cheers AB, the miniature aesthetic and painting looked European so just nice to have it confirmed. I am liking what I am seeing thus far. I just fear that the resin miniatures will see miniature numbers be smaller than what most feel they are entitled to for the pledge level in a Kickstarter. It almost feels like a small(ish) pledge total will aid Scale Games in the long run as it would help them get the game out in a timely manner as a result of a smaller workload.
I honestly hate Scale Games fans. It's like they're hardwired to jump on any criticism. Criticism that if addressed would improve the kickstarter. It makes me want to unpledge less than 4 hours into a campaign.
Thraxas Of Turai wrote: Cheers AB, the miniature aesthetic and painting looked European so just nice to have it confirmed. I am liking what I am seeing thus far. I just fear that the resin miniatures will see miniature numbers be smaller than what most feel they are entitled to for the pledge level in a Kickstarter. It almost feels like a small(ish) pledge total will aid Scale Games in the long run as it would help them get the game out in a timely manner as a result of a smaller workload.
It's hard to say this without opening myself up for another drive-by from the crazies but i can assure you it's true. If someone offered me this Kickstarter for free right now I would refuse it point blank. Fulfilling this kickstarter is going to be an absolute nightmare. Tens of thousands of hand cast 40mm multip part resin miniatures is a 'huge' undertaking and after KS and Amazon take their cut they are down to less than £1.50 a mini for the ones in the box set.
I handle resin production for a living and I wouldn't touch that with someone else's. The very best of luck to them.
On the other side of that argument I've pledged cos, insanely cheap minis
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Zond wrote: I honestly hate Scale Games fans. It's like they're hardwired to jump on any criticism. Criticism that if addressed would improve the kickstarter. It makes me want to unpledge less than 4 hours into a campaign.
Don't let them get to you, I've no idea why this KS seems to have attracted such an over the top crowd but don't let it stop ya buying minis if ya want them.
The art looks amazing, if the final production resin minis look that good, this will be a huge hit. The art/design reminds me of Corvis Belli's Infinity..with slightly less anime influence...more like a European styled Marvel Comics. I actually like the look of all four factions, but I kickstarted Zombicide 3 and Super Dungeon Explore! this year already...and am currently trying to figure out how to pre-order the new Shield of Baal book set from GW without my wife immediately divorcing my @$$.
Unfortunately, this will have to sit in my peripheral for now...I really do hope this kickstarter and this game are successful, maybe I can get it when it finally hits retail shelves...
Alpharius wrote: Someone needs to break those pledge levels down quickly to see if that $290 pledge is 'worth it' or if it is better off to go in at a lower one and throw in the addons?
Ok I think it is fairly accurate not. At least I've double checked it the best I can. If anyone see's any errors let me know. As the KS progresses, providing they add additional items then I will update the spreadsheet.
As opposed to Artemis Black's 'helpful' and incessant posting.
Given his position I find his input and tone to be completely unprofessional. I may or may not support this KS but I will certainly not be supporting any of his endeavors, just like Mr. Chapterhouses obnoxious input in to other manufacturers threads completely put me off his product.
Glad to see it's funded, lookin forward to seeing what they can produce.
Two... Whatevers don't make a right? I don't know. Just venting. I just wish people would understand that this reboot will have those with many concerns and questions that will be presented in a blunt manner. It's human nature after the last project was cancelled to react that way. It's going to dog them until production models are photographed next to a ruler. For every figure.
I'm glad it's funded and the spreadsheet breakdown is awesome. Actually tempts me towards the 600 mark.
fwiw, it looks like they've begun fulfillment of their other kickstarter just last week. I remember the pending fulfillment of that one being raised as a concern last time (that was quickly drowned out by the noisier scale concerns).
Maybe its just me but why have a game box with just two of the four factions? That is weird to me. Maybe I'm missing it but there isn't an add on for an entire faction?
plastictrees wrote: As opposed to Artemis Black's 'helpful' and incessant posting.
Given his position I find his input and tone to be completely unprofessional. I may or may not support this KS but I will certainly not be supporting any of his endeavors, just like Mr. Chapterhouses obnoxious input in to other manufacturers threads completely put me off his product.
Glad to see it's funded, lookin forward to seeing what they can produce.
*mwah* Love you too.
Ya know if you wanna PM me your details I can happily stop you sullying yourself by accidentally supporting one of my endeavours?
Alpharius wrote: The only faction I don't like is the Harvesters.
My only real issue is I believe they completely set up to market it wrong. I understand the pull behind having a base game but the issue is that it locks people into two factions starting out, unless they invest a lot more money. They should have a Core Box that contains rules, cards, counters, card terrain and/or anything else needed for the game (game mat maybe). Then they should let the Core Game Pledge get the Core Box choose their own 4 Heroes, 2 Combat Forces and 1 Booster. Then players who don't like Ares and/or Vengeance aren't stuck with them or if they want Ares and Sayx or Vengeance and Harvesters instead, they could do that. It also works out better for a couple of friends who want to go in together and split forces. With the way it is, it means anyone that wants to start another faction needs to drop another $100 on top of the already $100 they initially dropped. If they fix that.... then I think that would greatly improve their marketability.
Granted there are games that do two faction starters and are a great way for players to start Infinity: Ice Storm is a great example. However since all the miniature are fairly inexpensive, it makes it easier to drop into that game. It also is a bit bigger letting others sell and piece out parts. The same is with Dark Vengeance for WH40K. A lot of it can be parted out, there is a larger game base. A newer game trying to get off the ground though... makes it harder to do, unless you just throw a bunch of cheap miniatures that covers everything (Mantic) but we are dealing with resin (which I am happy for).
Alpharius wrote: The only faction I don't like is the Harvesters.
My only real issue is I believe they completely set up to market it wrong. I understand the pull behind having a base game but the issue is that it locks people into two factions starting out, unless they invest a lot more money. They should have a Core Box that contains rules, cards, counters, card terrain and/or anything else needed for the game (game mat maybe). Then they should let the Core Game Pledge get the Core Box choose their own 4 Heroes, 2 Combat Forces and 1 Booster. Then players who don't like Ares and/or Vengeance aren't stuck with them or if they want Ares and Sayx or Vengeance and Harvesters instead, they could do that. It also works out better for a couple of friends who want to go in together and split forces. With the way it is, it means anyone that wants to start another faction needs to drop another $100 on top of the already $100 they initially dropped. If they fix that.... then I think that would greatly improve their marketability.
Granted there are games that do two faction starters and are a great way for players to start Infinity: Ice Storm is a great example. However since all the miniature are fairly inexpensive, it makes it easier to drop into that game. It also is a bit bigger letting others sell and piece out parts. The same is with Dark Vengeance for WH40K. A lot of it can be parted out, there is a larger game base. A newer game trying to get off the ground though... makes it harder to do, unless you just throw a bunch of cheap miniatures that covers everything (Mantic) but we are dealing with resin (which I am happy for).
*Waves hands in air*
That's me. I actually like the Sayx ALOT and dig the Harvesters but I am tight on case and I would rather not buy into factions I am not going to use. I may throw a dollar at this and see if the option
opens up but I just don't like the Ares (Vengeance I like a little but less than Sayx and the Harvesters).
Do not toy with my emotions! Dakkanauts are a fractious people, quick to anger...and to love...
I agree that the restricted starter set is a bit of a mistake. Make it Ares and Riff at retail. Given that you're doing a custom box for it anyway why not make the contents mix and match? Not a complete free for all with swaps, but any 2 of the 4 factions.
That's me. I actually like the Sayx ALOT and dig the Harvesters but I am tight on case and I would rather not buy into factions I am not going to use. I may throw a dollar at this and see if the option
opens up but I just don't like the Ares (Vengeance I like a little but less than Sayx and the Harvesters).
I'm more into Ares and Sayx but yeah I really like Sayx. I did give them the suggestion, hopefully they listen. I think not only for future expansion but just for the game to grow it would be a great benefit.
The sculpts do look good, and the Ares are more like Space Marines should have been cast compared to all human scale minis, that they also start off with the other large sized faction, their alien foes, also works as a different concept of large sized aliens. they also look like a good paint challenge
I'm glad it's doing well. I wish Scale Games were a tad more on the ball with the comments. Letting backers, however well informed speak on their behalf and then stating a question has been answered is technically correct, but perhaps not PR correct?
Yes it has now definitely made more money on the first day than last time around. As others have said I would still have preferred to just choose one force or two forces rather than having to go for the boxset, but I understand they trying to market them as a boxed game. I think it would work on the previous Kickstart as it was similar to what Mantic did where you could get just the boxset or all the races. But given that they decided to do it in resin the cost of the higher pledges are just a bit too extreme for most folks including myself :(
At least we have options to pick separate squads individually so I still need to decide whether I will bother with the game or just the miniatures I like.
This is an opinion on a miniature collector not a boardgamer to get you in the right frame of mind. Riptides has already asked in the comments about single mini purchase so no point asking again. RT got an answer. "For now we are not doing that, but we might introduce it in the future."
Now that the honeymoon period is over. It’s down to the brass tacks of what you are getting. After looking at the box set and what it contains I have come to the conclusion that roughly 70% percent of the box I don't really want. (maybe more considering the duplicates) The box set contains (items marked with an asterisk not wanted items)
If it continues like that then I will probably back out before the end as I don’t need another board game that I need to sell on ebay. (board game with half the minis missing as well). As I’ve said before I don’t know if it’s the postage and packing admin nightmare if they brought in a collectors pledge. (Possibly so many different postage levels I imagine for each backer.) They have their reasons. Would be good if SG came right out and said no plans for a collectors pledge now but maybe it’s too soon we are, after all, only a day in. Have asked for clarification on Ritdes answer.
Why bother with collectors pledges?
Say a pledge of 8 heroes ( 8 x 15 = 120) was introduced. The I could swap my pledge (Assault trooper -= 100) to the new pledge . That is more money and less minis than on my current pledge. From a business point of view this makes pretty good sense. Less minis, less materials, more money. Now think of the combinations of collectors pledges you could have. 8 x heroes and 4 x booster packs (8x15 +4x35=260). That’s up at the battle squad level which if just 4 collectors buy in that’s a $1000 hike right there. Of course the numbers are total prices and not discounted ones you see normally in pledges.
For those that say “well don’t back it then”. Just because I don’t like my choice does not mean I hate the Figures/campaign, I am hoping a better choice becomes available. I want to be part of it but not if I am pushed into the board gamer direction. Of course scale games are under no obligations to make any changes and ignore what I would like to see happen. I make no illusions that I can change it.
Now it may just sound all a bit selfish as I'm out looking for something just for me. If you are mini collector/painter does this not appeal to you?
UPDATE: Fallen frontiers have confirmed Rtides answer relates to this campaign. Future=20days.
I'd really like to back this, but with Christmas so close, the funds are low. And with no lower level pledges just to get a handful of minis means a pass from me for now. Sticking in a $10 or $20 pledge level and I'd be all over this like a rash (especially if we were able to up our pledges post KS).
Up next... Jason Ramires!
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$80,000 – Jason Ramires [ADD-ON]
Jason is a very special case. Although he is just an artillery sergeant his words are taken into much consideration by his superiors on the battlefield, something uncommon in the Sayx army.
In several missions in which the plan was ruined within minutes of entering combat, Jason managed to keep his team alive showing great talent and a great ability to improvise. No wonder he ended up getting the nickname Jason "Plan B" Ramires.
He's a tough guy - we know this because he's smoking something.
Though that probably just means he's not that smart...
Piston Honda wrote: Apparently anyone who has the slightest question in regards to scale are "scale idiots".
Gee that's a nice thing to be called.
I hope Scale distance themselves from the weird little clique that basically formed themselves. Nothing harms a games growth more than the initial core fanbase being so unwelcoming to criticism, as all games will receive criticism and especially when first starting up as everyone would prefer it to be closer to what they want before it's too late.
I particularly like how they are immune to the fact that the 'scale idiots' were right all along about the first kickstarter.
I do notice that Scale are now going with the line that their figures work just fine with Infinity terrain, which is odd because Infinity figures are quite small and slender and generally the buildings made of it reflect that. You could easily use Infinity barriers and crates etc. and they'd just be smaller barriers and crates but then again you could say that for 'anything' generic. When people say 'scenery' they tend to include buildings and set pieces and 40mm hulking powered armour figures walking around a, for example, Micro Arts Infinity town are surely going to look like they are wandering around Legoland when the buildings are about 40mm per storey.
That guy at the top, even on the scenic base, is going to be a few mm shorter than the Sayx guy and a couple more shorter than Ares or Berserker etc. And 'way' less bulky. It's gonna look daft, which is one of the two reasons the scale stuff started last time so to say they just match this time around is begging for arguments.
So, is this actual resin, like proper 100% resin and not the restic c**p that mantic and privateer prees use? If it is actual resin I may try to get me and the lads in on it as I quite like the sayx and harvesters. Shame there not in the starter, can I get the equivalent of the box set with these two factions in instead?
overtyrant wrote: So, is this actual resin, like proper 100% resin and not the restic c**p that mantic and privateer prees use? If it is actual resin I may try to get me and the lads in on it as I quite like the sayx and harvesters. Shame there not in the starter, can I get the equivalent of the box set with these two factions in instead?
They said it will be Polyurethane Resin, and I think two faction sets get you like 50 miniatures + 2 vehicles vs. the 33 miniatures from the box set. Of course it will cost more though.
overtyrant wrote: So, is this actual resin, like proper 100% resin and not the restic c**p that mantic and privateer prees use? If it is actual resin I may try to get me and the lads in on it as I quite like the sayx and harvesters. Shame there not in the starter, can I get the equivalent of the box set with these two factions in instead?
Yes, proper resin But no, you can't do that, the box set is insanely cheap, everything else is twice the price or more, there's a link on here somewhere to a spreadsheet someone did.
Are they going for the "drug dealer" approach then(apologies if this offends anyone I am making no accusations), giving you a taste at a cheap price (the starter sets) but then the actual RRP is going to be a massive leap up?
Has it been said what the post kickstarter retail price their aiming for is?
How does this compare to the add on prices?
I'd probably be interested in some of the aliens. it dosent matter their bigger than most of my other collection cause their aliens (tho I might have to draw the line if their bigger than my tall marines ). But if the product line is going to be out of my normal hobby budget then there's no point really.
Is what their proposing to do at this stage feasible for them on KS funds?
How much does a resin mold cost and how many uses on average until it needs to be replaced?
How much on average is the material cost for the resin they are using per unit(per miniature or per casting)?
JoeRugby wrote: Are they going for the "drug dealer" approach then(apologies if this offends anyone I am making no accusations), giving you a taste at a cheap price (the starter sets) but then the actual RRP is going to be a massive leap up?
Has it been said what the post kickstarter retail price their aiming for is?
How does this compare to the add on prices?
I'd probably be interested in some of the aliens. it dosent matter their bigger than most of my other collection cause their aliens (tho I might have to draw the line if their bigger than my tall marines ). But if the product line is going to be out of my normal hobby budget then there's no point really.
Is what their proposing to do at this stage feasible for them on KS funds?
How much does a resin mold cost and how many uses on average until it needs to be replaced?
How much on average is the material cost for the resin they are using per unit(per miniature or per casting)?
It's doable. I wouldn't want to do it, but if enough people buy the $15 heroes etc it will offset the pain of the $1.50 figures in the core set. At the moment though 350 people at least aregetting the core set and it's only day 1. There's no economy of scale with resin casting really, you can save a tiny percentage on bulk buying raw materials but the majority of the cost is labour/time.
I can only assume that they have priced the box as a loss leader and are 'really' hoping enough people buy the other stuff. They haven't even sculpted or printed most of this stuff yet, thatll have to come out of the money first so $1.50 a figure might even be too generous. It is probably the most insanely priced large scale resin stuff I've ever seen (just referring to the core set).
I've pledged btw if you want a bunch of cheap Ares? I only want the Riff, plus I'm more than curious about what I'll get and when
JoeRugby wrote: Are they going for the "drug dealer" approach then(apologies if this offends anyone I am making no accusations), giving you a taste at a cheap price (the starter sets) but then the actual RRP is going to be a massive leap up?
Has it been said what the post kickstarter retail price their aiming for is?
How does this compare to the add on prices?
I'd probably be interested in some of the aliens. it dosent matter their bigger than most of my other collection cause their aliens (tho I might have to draw the line if their bigger than my tall marines ). But if the product line is going to be out of my normal hobby budget then there's no point really.
Is what their proposing to do at this stage feasible for them on KS funds?
How much does a resin mold cost and how many uses on average until it needs to be replaced?
How much on average is the material cost for the resin they are using per unit(per miniature or per casting)?
It's doable. I wouldn't want to do it, but if enough people buy the $15 heroes etc it will offset the pain of the $1.50 figures in the core set. At the moment though 350 people at least aregetting the core set and it's only day 1. There's no economy of scale with resin casting really, you can save a tiny percentage on bulk buying raw materials but the majority of the cost is labour/time.
I can only assume that they have priced the box as a loss leader and are 'really' hoping enough people buy the other stuff. They haven't even sculpted or printed most of this stuff yet, thatll have to come out of the money first so $1.50 a figure might even be too generous. It is probably the most insanely priced large scale resin stuff I've ever seen (just referring to the core set).
I've pledged btw if you want a bunch of cheap Ares? I only want the Riff, plus I'm more than curious about what I'll get and when
I only want the riff too.. Maybe, you can keep your not marines I prefer my true scaled marines
I guess there many ways of doing the resin casting but how long does it normaly take to cure?
RobertsMinis wrote: The price for high quality resin models just seems too low in the starter box, and when something appears to be too good to be true, it usually is.
Maybe?
I think, for this campaign, it is a "loss leader" - I know that it has gotten me in, and I'm looking to add in a few $15 'heroes' and $35 "boosters" (usually 3 figs!) and other stuff.
Ultimately, as AB noted above, if enough people add on enough stuff, they'll be OK.
Oh, they'll probably miss that 9/2015 ship date and be late, but they'll be OK!
Don't get me wrong, some of the factions and models look great and I would buy them in a heartbeat if they were available now and I actually seen the casting quality.
RobertsMinis wrote: Don't get me wrong, some of the factions and models look great and I would buy them in a heartbeat if they were available now and I actually seen the casting quality.
You can see a video of them looking at a couple of their resin production casts here: http://tinyurl.com/orwqxuf
Artemis Black wrote: I do notice that Scale are now going with the line that their figures work just fine with Infinity terrain, which is odd because Infinity figures are quite small and slender and generally the buildings made of it reflect that. You could easily use Infinity barriers and crates etc. and they'd just be smaller barriers and crates but then again you could say that for 'anything' generic. When people say 'scenery' they tend to include buildings and set pieces and 40mm hulking powered armour figures walking around a, for example, Micro Arts Infinity town are surely going to look like they are wandering around Legoland when the buildings are about 40mm per storey.
Something to remember about Infinity miniatures, their standard base (without any modifications) is 3mm high. Typically people will flip another base over to dress it up or use other existing bases which can measure to about 5mm high.
Ok now for actual picture evidence to help alleviate some conjecture, since I had a little extra time and wanted give actual examples that people can see. For some this will be great news and for others it may not be but overall it should be informative for everyone. There is no reason reason why existing 28mm "Heroic Scale" - 32mm terrain would not work with Fallen Frontiers. Unfortunately my Wild West Exodus miniatures (35mm) are being borrowed and Knight Miniatures haven't come in yet so I don't have them with me. I decided to gather up a few miniatures from various brands to create a lineup and give some actual examples with them in the meantime.
The miniatures and terrain used in the pictures are:
- Infinity: Nomad Grenzers, Nomad Mobile Brigada, Yu-Jing Guijia, scratch-built Drone, Operation: Icestorm terrain
- Warhammer 40K: Eldar Guardian, Terminator from Space Hulk 4th edition, Ruined building from Space Marines vs Dark Eldar box (4th edition I think?)
- Dust Tactics Grim Reaper
- Underground Lasers: Guard shack and blockade.
- Micro Art Studio: District 5 Garage
Disclaimer: The camera is my S5, sitting flat on its side against the table (other than one high angle shot), when I took the pictures. I tried to keep the setup and positioning exactly the same so there was no if very little variance. Keep in mind not all miniatures, other than the lineup, are side by side so some might seem a bit bigger because of perspective as they are obviously closer or further to the camera. It should be pretty clear what is what. The red line in the images is measured at 40mm. Also remember that base sizes vary from 3mm-6mm. There is a 4mm gap from the base of the ruler until it actually starts measuring, even though the line is at 40mm, it is actually at roughly 44mm in height.
Here are the control images of Fallen Frontier that I am using to base initial heights and sizes for comparisons with:
Spoiler:
There is their lineup that shows examples of other miniatures and is 38mm to the top of the head, 35mm to the eyes of the miniature:
Here is a close up of just one of their miniatures to show the measurements again. This did state this was one of their resin production versions:
Here are my initial miniatures lineup images:
Spoiler:
From left to right: Infinity Nomads Grenzer, Eldar Guardian, Infinity Nomads Mobile Brigada, Dust Tactics Grim Reaper and Infinity Yu-jing Guijia:
From left to right: Terrain crate from Infinity Operation: Icestorm, Dust Tactics Grim Reaper, Drone, and Infinity Yu-jing Guija:
From left to right: Terrain crate from Infinity Operation: Icestorm, Space Hulk Terminator (4th Edition), Dust Tactics Grim Reaper, and Infinity Yu-jing Guija:
Now that we've established the baseline and comparison miniatures it is time to add in the terrain to the images starting Infinity Operation: Icestorm terrain. These are the pre-printed terrain buildings that came in the game box for Icestorm:
Spoiler:
This has the Infinity Operation: Icestorm crate and administration building:
Warhammer 40K ruined building that came in a WH40K boxed set that was Space Marines vs Dark Eldar (I think 4th edition, it was forever ago so don't remember?).
Spoiler:
Warhammer 40K Ruined Building with Infinity Operation: Icestorm crate to keep continuity:
Using same WH40K Ruin, I moved it so that it could be used to partially block line of sight and to give a better idea of the terrain next to the miniatures:
Underground Lasers MDF laser cut terrain that was from their recent Kickstarter:
Spoiler:
Added in Underground Lasers Guardshack, still keeping in the Operation: Icestorm crate to continue to give an idea of size relation:
Moved the camera over to the left slightly, to give a better picture of the guardshack showing the ladder:
Added in a barricade:
Took a higher angle shot to show how everything is sitting in relation to each other:
Adding in Micro Art Studio District 5 Garage into the lineup:
Spoiler:
Part of the cargo container from Infinity Operation: Icestorm is still in the image to help show a comparison between the two pieces:
Turning the camera to give a shot of the miniatures so you can also see the one of the garage doors:
Positioning the miniatures inside the Garage, taken from outside of the garage viewing in through the garage door:
This is the right side of the garage where one of the doorways is cut out, lined up the miniatures next to it for comparison:
Am i seeing this correctly and the mobile brigada is 35mm to the eyes? If so then you could use it as the perfect comparison between the FF miniatures and your terrain.
OnePageAnon wrote: Am i seeing this correctly and the mobile brigada is 35mm to the eyes? If so then you could use it as the perfect comparison between the FF miniatures and your terrain.
OnePageAnon wrote: Am i seeing this correctly and the mobile brigada is 35mm to the eyes? If so then you could use it as the perfect comparison between the FF miniatures and your terrain.
Yes that is roughly correct. I created an image to show where 35mm is at. Keep in mind the Brigada base is 3mm and it is 4mm before the measurement actually starts on the ruler, so there is about 1mm discrepancy making the line really at 36mm.
Sure give me a few hours. I need to run some errands but I could probably do some pictures to give better examples.
I probably won't get new pictures posted until tomorrow... ran out of time and promised the wife I'd run do some MMO gaming with her for a bit.
I'll set up the table though with some terrain and take some pictures keeping the Dust Tactics Grim Reaper, Infinity Nomad Mobile Brigada, Yu-Jing Guijia, and Drone for consistency with the other pictures I've taken. I'm going to estimate that the Heavy Trooper types like the Behemoth, Vulcans, Hulks and Hyperion Armours will be fairly similar to the Yu-Jing Guijia in size.
At best guess the "Underground Lasers MDF laser cut terrain" seems to be the best terrain for the ff guys. Guess Stuff like walls and barrels/containers are generic and can work with most.
Update:
The $1 pledge level is here for those who want to pick and choose what they want. The only downside is you don't get any pledge goals so no free stuff and no discounted pledge either.
This means the more you buy the bigger the benefit in postage.
so £26 if you buy 1 hero and if you buy 8 then that price drops to £8.50 per mini.
If you were not interested in Ares and Vengeance the options that I can see are:
1) Faction Pledge (which does include stretch goals and rules) for $210-$220 with shipping. It is only 25 miniatures currently, there was a free one added as as stretch goal, $7.78-$9.57 per miniature. One disadvantage is it is just one army, so unless a friend gets a faction pledge you can't really play with friends or invite others to get into the game. You do get one of the vehicles as part of this, but I'm not sure if I like them yet or not.
2) Assault Trooper Pledge + Add-ons to create your 3rd Faction army. With shipping $295-305 for 57 miniatures if you are not interested in the vehicles, $5.18-$5.35 per miniature. You are able to get a different faction other than Ares and Vengeance and have a couple armies you can use to demo or play with friends. If you are lucky you can talk one of them into buying them or sell them off via 3rd party methods. It also includes stretch goals so you may end up with a couple extra miniatures by the end of the campaign, although no guarantee they are for your 3rd faction choice.
3) If you want a vehicle for your 3rd faction choice, you can do the Assault Trooper Pledge + Add-ons to get one vehicle, with shipping, for $340-$350. It would probably be better though to do Assault Trooper Pledge + Faction Pledge, if you are in Europe/USA it comes to the same price of $340. You unfortunately do not get double the stretch goals which is a shame and disappointment. However you do end up getting an extra Rulebook that can make it easier to selling Ares and/or Vengeance armies away along with the rulebook. If you are RoW it does cost $350 instead but it is cheaper than adding a $16 Rulebook add-on.
New Pledge Level & How you can help Fallen Frontiers
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Hello Backers,
First off we want to thank everyone very much for pledging on Fallen Frontiers and helping us make this game a reality!
Over the past days we have been been listening to your feedback, and we are working on updating the Kickstarter accordingly. Today we are going to add a $1 pledge level so that people can pick whatever add-ons they want, without having to commit to the $70 pledge. We are also working on a pledge manager to make the entire process as easy as possible, however it will still take a few days.
In the meantime we would like to ask you to help us in spreading the word about Fallen Frontiers. The more people we have on board, the more stretch goals we unlock, and the more sci-fi awesomeness everybody gets.
You can help us in 3 simple steps:
1 - Like Fallen Frontiers on Facebook
2 - Follow Fallen Frontiers on Twitter
3 - Become a Fan on Board Game Geek
If you have any ideas on how we can get more visibility for the Kickstarter we would be very happy to hear it in the comments.
You have kinda gotta wonder what they were doing for the last 4 months.
New Kickstarter comes around and the rules are still in 'alpha', they are working on this and changing that.
They still haven't bothered to get prints done of the 75mm minis they are using for advertising (Dianne will 'not' look like that when you get it for example).
Meh, I've pledged so I shall now await my weekly or monthly amusing update I guess
Artemis Black wrote: You have kinda gotta wonder what they were doing for the last 4 months.
New Kickstarter comes around and the rules are still in 'alpha', they are working on this and changing that.
They still haven't bothered to get prints done of the 75mm minis they are using for advertising (Dianne will 'not' look like that when you get it for example).
Meh, I've pledged so I shall now await my weekly or monthly amusing update I guess
I'm sorry are we still talking about FF, or beyond the gates of Antares? , at least these sculpts are more current.
Yeah, the $1 pledge to "wait and see" seems the safest to me here. Wish I'd added that in on a few others to have the opportunity to add later, and just to track the progress (Arena Rex and Guildball come to mind).
Previously I hadn't pledged at all if I was unsure of fulfillment, but I really would like to see how they tackle this, even if I'm not confident enough to put down for a large pledge.
OnePageAnon wrote: Oh that's awesome. Could you take a few pictures just with the mobile brigada next to different terrain pieces then?
I thought this would be easy but it ended up being a bit harder than I thought. I wanted to take lower level shots so people wouldn't think that angles were being manipulated. Then it was a matter of trying to figure out how to position things to give an actual idea of size comparison. I settled for a little bit of everything. I also ended up getting a couple other miniatures the same size as the Nomads Mobile Brigada, Dark Age's miniature and Infinity: Combined Army - Suryats. Sorry some of them are painted and the terrain is pretty bare, since I've been sick most of my stuff is on loan so I gathered the left overs together.
For those that missed the original post size comparisons with a ruler, it is posted on this page or you can just click it here.
Infinity Operation: Icestorm card terrain that came with the box:
Spoiler:
To help keep continuity I started to mix in other terrain including Battle Systems scifi wall and doorway and WH40K building ruins:
Spoiler:
Now to switch it up a bit and started to add in various MDF laser cut terrain from Underground Lasers, Burn in Designs and Micro Art Studio:
Spoiler:
I hope that helps give everyone a better idea of how Fallen Frontiers miniatures can still incorporate into existing 28-32mm terrain.
I just can't do $35 for shipping. If I was all in and getting tons of miniatures, maybe it would be worth it, but I was thinking of just grabbing 10 or so.
frozenwastes wrote: I just can't do $35 for shipping. If I was all in and getting tons of miniatures, maybe it would be worth it, but I was thinking of just grabbing 10 or so.
If you only want a few miniatures, even with $35 shipping, the Faction pledge isn't that bad of an option. You get 14 miniatures which puts them at $7.50 per resin 35mm miniature. On average resin miniatures tend to run $15-40 depending on size and where you get them, so overall not too horrible. Although for $35 more, the Assault Trooper pledge is definitely the best bang for the buck, 34 miniatures ($4.12 per miniature with shipping added to the total).
RiTides wrote:Yeah, the $1 pledge to "wait and see" seems the safest to me here. Wish I'd added that in on a few others to have the opportunity to add later, and just to track the progress (Arena Rex and Guildball come to mind).
Previously I hadn't pledged at all if I was unsure of fulfillment, but I really would like to see how they tackle this, even if I'm not confident enough to put down for a large pledge.
Artemis Black wrote:You have kinda gotta wonder what they were doing for the last 4 months.
New Kickstarter comes around and the rules are still in 'alpha', they are working on this and changing that.
They still haven't bothered to get prints done of the 75mm minis they are using for advertising (Dianne will 'not' look like that when you get it for example).
Meh, I've pledged so I shall now await my weekly or monthly amusing update I guess
You know, if for any reason you're not happy with a project you can either reduce your payment level or remove it altogether! You have this option right up to the end date!
For what you get, pretty much any pledge works out to be a good value. I've seen Scale 75's larger stuff in person and I know they do good work.
I was thinking of something like the Ares combat force add-on or maybe the Riff version. 11 miniatures for so, even at $85 after shipping, is still technically a very good deal considering they're resin and huge miniatures.
And $35 is accurate. I checked on some quote pages and it's going to be what a boxed package of 11 40mm miniatures shipped to me would cost.
The $35 sounds like a lot to ship 11 miniatures and it shocked me at first. Now I think I'll ask some gaming buddies and see if I can't find someone local to split shipping with.
Bear in mind, they will be shipping from Europe and US. So for those regions there is no import charge to backers.
Now that of course means Scale are having to foot the bill for import and export from China to Europe, and Europe to US. That also means paying for a US warehouse, and the whole other fun that comes with operating as a company in the US as well as in Europe.
That must no be cheap. If that means more cost on shipping and in other places, but also means you can pledge as much as you like and not get taxed on it..... well that shipping charge becomes a steal.
The paint sets increased shipping and weight so they're a no go apparently. DVDs are either available as add ons post kickstarter or are a secret stretch goal depending on the comments.
New Renders, New Pledge Level & Spanish Starter Box
Comment
7 likes
Hello everyone,
We have been working hard at bringing you some interesting things, and we have 3 things we wanted to share with you right now:
1) After working a few things out we are now able to give you guys the option between receiving the Starter Box in either English or Spanish at the end of the campaign. This means that the rulebook and all cards in the Starter Box will be translated, giving our Spanish speaking backers that aren’t proficient in English an easier time.
2) Seeing how we have had an increase in demand for the higher tier rewards, we have decided to open up a set of 25 new Early Bird Commander pledges for $670, giving you an increadible value for money (items bought separately are worth $857).
3) We have prepared a few render videos of some of the miniatures to show you the models in all of their glory. Today we are showing you two, and we will release more in the following days.
That’s it for right now, but we are working on a lot of stuff behind the scenes so that we can get more updates to you as soon as possible. Stay tuned for more!
Update: We’ve had an awesome update from the folks at Scale75 about the Fallen Frontiers Kickstarter and they’ve given us another of the hidden hero stretch goals to show off! Check out Kyra Operator 551…
Kyra Operator 551
And here is a bit more about her…
“When an Operator first recovers his consciousness it usually takes a few days for him to recover from the process. During this period being able to make their own choices is something that terrifies the recovering subjects, and it generates a crisis from which some recover sooner than later.
When Kyra was released the Ares thought that the process had failed because she was rebelling at all times as if she had remained an Operator. She was kept in isolation for 10 days, during which she showed a brutal resistance even without a reason. Eventually when her brain was scanned to see if she was still subconsciously receiving orders, the Ares came to the realization that her behavior was her own, and fee of outside control.
“What should we do sir? Should we let her go?”
“We are sure that she is not one of them, right?”
“Yes sir, but I also cannot tell you that she is one of us.””
Pretty awesome right? She’s sure to make an awesome miniature and I love that you get to have a bit of fun with her gun as well giving it a neat menacing look to it like they used to with fighter planes. She’s certainly a different looking Operator to the ones we’ve seen before, and Bitsie below, so it shows Ares isn’t all about the uniform dress code!
- See more at: http://www.beastsofwar.com/fallen-frontiers/fallen-frontiers-kickstarter-stretch-goals-busted/#sthash.bHWpiKj3.dpuf
Well she is the first Ares that looks nice. at least in concept.
Well you can raise it now and help the project by having it move up to stretch goals and then have a credit in the pledgemanager, or you can add stuff in the pledgemanager after it has been funded from the things already unlocked and pay then.
Alpharius wrote: I'm confused - don't we have to wait until the campaign is over to do stuff in a Pledge Manager?
Technically you don't have to wait for a KS to end to do things in a Pledge Manager, a few kickstarters give you access to the pledge manager before hand. However those changes don't add or effect the KS directly. I think it may be something lost in translation honestly as soon(tm) is a subjective term. Soon after the KS ends the Pledge Manager may be available, which end up being 1-3 months later.
Is that Dianne Tianseen just the render for the 75mm one? It looks exactly the same, and as seen by the Sayx guy, you make things smaller and you need to make changes.
(Also that coat will be a nightmare for casting, even in resin)
But I'll take your word for it - I wonder how extensive the changes will have to be in order for it to be 'castable'?
Automatically Appended Next Post: $80K hit:
Update #9
Nov 17 2014
Up next... surprises! 2 comments 6 likes
Hello everyone,
We have already unlocked our third hero, you can now add Jason Ramires to your pledge for $15.
For the next stretch goal we have decided to give you a special treat, and now with the Silver Card Backs you will also receive a FREE painting DVD.
Additionally If we reach the $100,000 mark we have decided to give you another special treat to thank you for all the support, and we will make Hank “Operator 323” a FREE addition to all pledges with access to stretch goals. This means that the next 3 stretch goals (Silver Card Backs + Painting DVD, Hank “Operator 323” and Fink Draar) are all FREE!
$90,000 – Silver Card Backs + Painting DVD [FREE]
By unlocking this stretch goal we are going to make all card backs in shiny silver, which will be exclusive for this Kickstarter campaign. This means that no matter who you play with, they will always know you were one of the original backers of this campaign and helped make Fallen Frontiers a reality. Additionally you will receive a free painting DVD to help you paint your miniatures to an excellent standard!
That $90K stretch goal isn't terribly exciting (the DVD could be nice though!), but that $100K one certainly rocks!
But I'll take your word for it - I wonder how extensive the changes will have to be in order for it to be 'castable'?
Yeah that's the one, looks like the same figure. I wish they'd stop doing that, the 'Sphynx' Harvester character is the 75mm one too.
A main reason for mentioning it is that the rescaled and resculpted 'Bitsie' is awful, broken Liefeldian spine, head seems to be in the wrong place, the 'boob armour' seems to have been made .. saggy for want of a better description and the guns have been beefed up to giant proportions.The 75mm one has a lot less issues and is clearly a 'much' better figure. Same pose, same figure, but something is clearly worse with the smaller one.
Added spoiler tags to large image - RiTides
Spoiler:
Basically you can't just show people 75mm statues and say 'This is what you'll get in 40mm' when it's almost certain you will not. That Dianne is a really nice 75mm figure, but until I see a print of it in the size I'd be getting I'm not buying it.
I read your remarks, I read your remarks even from their previous attempt, you repeat the same thing over and over and most importantly in a way I can only read as toxic and unhelpful, almost as mudslinging than anything else.
I have been way more critical than you on kickstarters, but never had that tone and on some cases actually the creator thanked me, even when I pointed out some really big issues because I gave workable solutions.
You simply stand and shout, it is annoying after a while and it has been quite a while.
Artemis Black wrote: (Also that coat will be a nightmare for casting, even in resin)
It isn't going to be too much of a nightmare really. They just need to cast it similar to what Infinity, Wild West Exodus, Warzone and Kingdom Death miniatures have done. The body is one piece with part of the coat. The rest of the coat is a separate piece that is attached, with a slight overlap so it can become seamless.
Artemis Black wrote: Basically you can't just show people 75mm statues and say 'This is what you'll get in 40mm' when it's almost certain you will not. That Dianne is a really nice 75mm figure, but until I see a print of it in the size I'd be getting I'm not buying it.
KS have always done this showing renders, concept and pictures of what they are creating even in the correct size and sometimes they match up and sometimes they don't, but I have been really surprised on how they always seem to match up pretty well.
Pilgrim_uk wrote: While I don't agree with Artemis probably all the time I would rather he question the piece rather than the rest of us just going "ohh shiny"
He is after all public enemy number one.
There's a vast ocean of space between going "ohh shiny" and implying that Scale are trying to trick their backers and that they won't be able to fulfill their kickstarter obligations, which Mr. Black does in every post.
Keep glorifying his contribution though, it's important to encourage snide criticism amongst peers, we really don't see it enough on the internet.
PsychoticStorm wrote: Honestly do you ever say anything that is not negative about these guys? you almost look as if you have an agenda against them.
If you see the video from Michael Bartel they actually discuss that the render has a bigger fun so it can be cast in the smaller scale. But you probably won't given the last campaign episode
PsychoticStorm wrote: I read your remarks, I read your remarks even from their previous attempt, you repeat the same thing over and over and most importantly in a way I can only read as toxic and unhelpful, almost as mudslinging than anything else.
I have been way more critical than you on kickstarters, but never had that tone and on some cases actually the creator thanked me, even when I pointed out some really big issues because I gave workable solutions.
You simply stand and shout, it is annoying after a while and it has been quite a while.
I think the only agenda here is yours, you characterise my questions as an 'attempt' for a start yet don't say what it is an attempt to do. I am a backer of this kickstarter, and not for a $1, I have praised a number of the designs and some of the actual miniatures. I have said good things about the graphical presentations and especially the sculptors and artists.
What I have been critical of is the vague and misleading statements about various aspects of the kickstarter coming from whoever's in charge of that stuff and in fact the biggest things I complained about last kickstarter turned out to be 100% correct. The miniatures weren't the size they claimed and they weren't making stuff in plastic with the basic funding goal. Seems a reasonable thing to question, normally when a company isn't telling the truth about their products then the person pointing it out doesn't get this much stick from random company cheerleaders. Doesn't bother me, it's just weird.
Same company, second time around, less benefit of the doubt. I'm definitely going to question any vague information or misleading advertising, you can feel free to ignore my questions if ya like, it's probably not hard, I won't be stopping because some random on the internet tries to paint me with some kind of made up agenda though,
Pilgrim_uk wrote: While I don't agree with Artemis probably all the time I would rather he question the piece rather than the rest of us just going "ohh shiny"
He is after all public enemy number one.
There's a vast ocean of space between going "ohh shiny" and implying that Scale are trying to trick their backers and that they won't be able to fulfill their kickstarter obligations, which Mr. Black does in every post.
Keep glorifying his contribution though, it's important to encourage snide criticism amongst peers, we really don't see it enough on the internet.
No Mr. Black does not.
Edited by RiTides - Rule #1 of Dakka is "Be polite"
Artemis Black wrote: (Also that coat will be a nightmare for casting, even in resin)
It isn't going to be too much of a nightmare really. They just need to cast it similar to what Infinity, Wild West Exodus, Warzone and Kingdom Death miniatures have done. The body is one piece with part of the coat. The rest of the coat is a separate piece that is attached, with a slight overlap so it can become seamless.
That's the nightmare part, I hate cutting things up like that. We were looking to have to do it with a recent fig but in the end decided to make the cloak heavier and fill the parts (Mostly though because we had an eye to metal rpduction too, but the resin guys were definitely happier about it )
Artemis Black wrote: Basically you can't just show people 75mm statues and say 'This is what you'll get in 40mm' when it's almost certain you will not. That Dianne is a really nice 75mm figure, but until I see a print of it in the size I'd be getting I'm not buying it.
KS have always done this showing renders, concept and pictures of what they are creating even in the correct size and sometimes they match up and sometimes they don't, but I have been really surprised on how they always seem to match up pretty well.
I have no problem with the idea, I mean half the stuff on there is drawings. what I take issue with is not mentioning it anyway. If you have a Kickstarter for a 40mm product and you put up a render, or in this case a painted final figure, without mentioning 'at all' that it's a 75mm statue, it gives the message that 'that' is definitely what you are buying. And as seen with Bitsie, it is regularly not.
No idea why they just can't say that it's a 75mm figure, most of their fans won't care anyway and it's more honest for the ones that do.
if you get off your high horse in your hatred for Artemis for a minute , I was more pointing out that every opinion is welcome whether its good or bad.
it's important to encourage tolerance amongst peers, we really don't see it enough on the internet. Touché
Some Kickstarters use just artwork, some renders, and in this case photos of similar figures at a different scale. I'd say that's better than artwork or renders, even though I'd prefer to see actual models.
However, I'm backing other campaigns and while I express that I would like to see a 3d print at least, I don't go back to it over and over... either they're capable of footing the costs upfront, or they need the KS funds and can't. It's then a call of whether I have confidence enough to back or not based on what they can show.
Here, I'm in for $1. But, you seem to not give credit where it is due. For example, you have repeated 40mm several times in your last post, when on the first day they posted this in the comments:
Scale Games wrote:@Gomezaddams - The miniatures are fully produced in Spain, whilst other bits and pieces (such as cards, dice, etc.) are produced in China. The scale of the miniatures when standing straight is 35mm from soles to eyes for Sayx and Harvesters, and 37mm from soles to eyes for the Ares and Riff. For more questions and images regarding the scale please refer to the FAQ.
Nov 14 2014 on Fallen Frontiers REBOOT.
So, basically 40mm is something that you are just repeating over and over but doesn't correlate to the figures in this campaign, from what I can see.
I would personally appreciate it if you kept your criticism more focused, as right now it does just seem like you are out to get them, and that turns people off to your view rather than convincing them of it.
if you get off your high horse in your hatred for Artemis for a minute , I was more pointing out that every opinion is welcome whether its good or bad.
it's important to encourage tolerance amongst peers, we really don't see it enough on the internet. Touché
How dare you sir! I would never ride my high horse in hatred. That's just basic high horse safety. I'm frankly stunned that you would even suggest otherwise.
RiTides wrote: Some Kickstarters use just artwork, some renders, and in this case photos of similar figures at a different scale. I'd say that's better than artwork or renders, even though I'd prefer to see actual models.
And when you see a piece of artowrk do you think you are buying artwork or do you you think you will be getting a mini base don that artwork? If you see a finished mini that makes no mention of it not being the mini you are going to get I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that's what you are getting. In this case that would be an incorrect assumption, thus misleading.
RiTides wrote: However, I'm backing other campaigns and while I express that I would like to see a 3d print at least, I don't go back to over and over... either they're capable of footing the costs upfront, or they need the KS funds and can't. It's then a call of whether I have confidence enough to back or not based on what they can show.
Here, I'm in for $1. But, you seem to not give credit where it is due. For example, you have repeated 40mm several times in your last post, when on the first day they posted this in the comments:
Scale Games wrote:@Gomezaddams - The miniatures are fully produced in Spain, whilst other bits and pieces (such as cards, dice, etc.) are produced in China. The scale of the miniatures when standing straight is 35mm from soles to eyes for Sayx and Harvesters, and 37mm from soles to eyes for the Ares and Riff. For more questions and images regarding the scale please refer to the FAQ.
Nov 14 2014 on Fallen Frontiers REBOOT.
So, basically 40mm is something that you are just repeating over and over but doesn't correlate to the figures in this campaign, from what I can see.
The only figure thus far made that is 38mm tall is the Sayx guy, the Sayx are not one of the races in the boxed set. The Riff and the Ares are in the boxed set and they are 40mm tall or even larger in the case of the Berserkers. I'm not writing '37mm to the eyes' over and over again? The boxed set contains 40mm figures so when I say 'They have to cast thousands of 40mm figures', it's because they do. That's a fact? Yes they also have to cast a bunch of 38mm figures, that doesn't make the first sentence any less true. I have no idea how tall Dianne is going to be but Scale have said that Hero figures will be larger than the average figures, so again I don't think saying '40mm' is in any way an attack, why on Earth would it be?
RiTides wrote: I would personally appreciate it if you kept your criticism more focused, as right now it does just seem like you are out to get them, and that turns people off to your view rather than convincing them of it.
You mean more focussed in the sense of talking about things that are in the Kickstarter rather than talking about things like... me? Pretty certain I was doing that, and may be in the minority on this page at least. If I was 'out to get them' I would a) not be doing it here, what a random place to do it and b) I would not have said the numerous positive comments including btw 'Everyone go buy that boxset'.
You were the one who closed the other thread with the instructions to talk about the kickstarter not about the forum members?
1. Almost every miniatures manufacturer for wargaming measures "to the eye", so your "40mm" characterization is (in my view) simply incorrect. You can stick to it if you like, but I think it's wrong. According to convention, these would be called 35mm, based on the quote from Scale Games I put above.
2. Again, it's fine to criticize them for not having physical models that are the correct scale, but doing so over and over can become off-topic as it can (again) derail the thread, which I'm trying to avoid. Many companies put renders on bases with dynamic lighting now, and it Looks like a mini, but it isn't. This is analogous, and while I don't like the practice, I'm simply asking you not to repeat yourself on that and allow those interested in the campaign to follow it's progress.
If you want to debate general issues like this, the best solution would be a thread in Dakka Discussions about "scale measurements in wargaming" or "using art, renders, or larger models instead of physical masters" to represent a product. But discussion in this thread needs to be focused on just this Kickstarter campaign, and not just the general points above which have been well covered by now.
RiTides wrote: To the two issues you raise, my brief reply:
1. Almost every miniatures manufacturer for wargaming measures "to the eye", so your "40mm" characterization is (in my view) simply incorrect. You can stick to it if you like, but I think it's wrong. According to convention, these would be called 35mm, based on the quote from Scale Games I put above.
What 'convention' would this be? I've worked in this industry for twenty years and sold hundreds of different companies products and haven't heard of this convention. 'Some' companies use a to the eyes measurement, pretty much zero companies use that eye measurement when telling you how big an individual miniature is unless they specify 'to the eyes', A measurement without that specification is an actual height. The actual height of these miniatures is not '35mm'. If you ask me the scale of their game I would be forced to answer '35mm to the eyes' because that's their definition, that is not, and has never been ,the convention for talking about miniature heights though (in recent times, I am willing to believe when military miniatures were more the norm that it may have been due to the copious amount of headwear involved).
RiTides wrote: 2. Again, it's fine to criticize them for not having physical models that are the correct scale, but doing so over and over can become off-topic as it can (again) derail the thread, which I'm trying to avoid. Many companies put renders on bases with dynamic lighting now, and it Looks like a mini, but it isn't. This is analogous, and while I don't like the practice, I'm simply asking you not to repeat yourself on that and allow those interested in the campaign to follow it's progress.
I may have mentioned it more than once but I'm not just randomly shouting it out like a weird tourettes victim. I mentioned it this time in specific to one of the minis because a render video of that mini was newly uploaded. It seems a perfectly reasonable question to ask if it's just the large scale render or not. Conversation led from that, it was not a general argument, I even included a specific example (Bitise) from this campaign to illustrate why I was asking.
Artemis Black wrote: What I have been critical of is the vague and misleading statements about various aspects of the kickstarter coming from whoever's in charge of that stuff and in fact the biggest things I complained about last kickstarter turned out to be 100% correct. The miniatures weren't the size they claimed and they weren't making stuff in plastic with the basic funding goal.
Except on day 1 on KS1 it was stated it was injection plastic and 35mm. It is all time stamped in their comments. When it was questioned what type of plastic is where it became vague because they didn't make any contracts and were waiting for the final results of the KS. Then it was stated some plastic, some metal... then later resin. Resin was finalized and in response to the back sliding because people didn't want cheap plastic and it didn't seem possible to HIPS given the amount of miniatures on the budget. Unfortunately since it wasn't budgeted around resin minatures there was no way they could of delivered those miniatures at the prices they were at without losing a lot of money.
Artemis Black wrote: That's the nightmare part, I hate cutting things up like that.
With digital and 3d printed works cutting miniatures up is the easiest part. It would be a nightmare if it was a traditional sculpt though instead of digital. That is the great thing about how well the newer Infinity's models have been turning out because of how well they've been cutting up their digital sculpts.
Artemis Black wrote: If you have a Kickstarter for a 40mm product and you put up a render, or in this case a painted final figure, without mentioning 'at all' that it's a 75mm statue, it gives the message that 'that' is definitely what you are buying.
I can understand to a degree if they actually didn't have anything else to show. The pictures and miniatures from GenCon were not 75mm statues. In fact you can look at the 75mm version and compare it to the quality for their 35mm on as they have both pictures on their Facebook page. The miniatures looked really good in person.
Artemis Black wrote: No idea why they just can't say that it's a 75mm figure, most of their fans won't care anyway and it's more honest for the ones that do.
It is called marketing. Why do you think there isn't fine print in fashion magazines that say 'photoshop'. Even other gaming companies doctor their photos up or take pictures of larger models without saying they are larger models. The only thing that matters if the final product.
On other news I don't believe this was posted here:http://www.youtube.com/attribution_link?a=hpaF-T6_G0E&u=/watch%3Fv%3DcTs92GmCwkk%26feature%3Dem-uploademail
Artemis Black wrote: What 'convention' would this be? I've worked in this industry for twenty years and sold hundreds of different companies products and haven't heard of this convention. 'Some' companies use a to the eyes measurement, pretty much zero companies use that eye measurement when telling you how big an individual miniature is unless they specify 'to the eyes', A measurement without that specification is an actual height.
Measurements to the eyes didn't start out as a standard. Historical wargames tend to be more truescale and measured to the tops of the head. The problem is that many companies were doing fancier, more detailed hair, larger helmets, etc and over the years it has been becoming a standard. Not stating that the measurement is specified to the eyes does not infer that it is the actual miniature height. Not to mention from the beginning they did state and specify that the measurement is to the eyes. But you are saying you won't say that because to be accurate, you would have to type out 'to the eyes', despite they have already stated that as their measurement.
Not to mention WH40k is advertised as 28mm heroic scale, but are closer to 32mm and depending on the race they can measure up to 28mm to the eyes and up to 35mm to the top of their heads. Infinity is also advertised as 28mm miniatures, they do not specify to the eyes. Not all the humans measure 28mm to the eyes, if we measured height to the top of the head they would be 35mm miniatures but it isn't advertised as a 35mm game. Wild West Exodus is advertised as 35mm miniatures and not all 35mm to the top of the head, some measure 32mm instead. Warzone is advertised as 32mm which is to the eyes, the miniatures are 35-40mm high (usually because of helmets) but when we refer to them we refer to 32mm, not 40mm. Even then it doesn't matter because races, factions, armor all change the height so they will vary... instead companies state "these miniatures are compatible with 28mm gaming" or "these will work with 32mm miniatures" or in this case "these are 35mm and do appear slightly bigger but still compatible with 32mm terrain.".
cincydooley wrote:This continues to look really good.
It REALLY does!
I'm looking forward to this one...
Anyway this:
Bacms wrote:On other news I don't believe this was posted here:http://www.youtube.com/attribution_link?a=hpaF-T6_G0E&u=/watch%3Fv%3DcTs92GmCwkk%26feature%3Dem-uploademail
deserves the Dakka Dakka Youtube Button Treatment!
Artemis Black wrote: What I have been critical of is the vague and misleading statements about various aspects of the kickstarter coming from whoever's in charge of that stuff and in fact the biggest things I complained about last kickstarter turned out to be 100% correct. The miniatures weren't the size they claimed and they weren't making stuff in plastic with the basic funding goal.
Except on day 1 on KS1 it was stated it was injection plastic and 35mm. It is all time stamped in their comments. When it was questioned what type of plastic is where it became vague because they didn't make any contracts and were waiting for the final results of the KS. Then it was stated some plastic, some metal... then later resin. Resin was finalized and in response to the back sliding because people didn't want cheap plastic and it didn't seem possible to HIPS given the amount of miniatures on the budget. Unfortunately since it wasn't budgeted around resin minatures there was no way they could of delivered those miniatures at the prices they were at without losing a lot of money.
That's mostly speculation, and it seems to be taking for granted that a company started a kickstarter having no idea how much anything they wanted to make would cost. Surely that's more insulting to Scale than just assuming they were having language problems or whatever the reasons touted around last time were. They repeatedly changed their mind on what the material was going to be and it also seemed liek there wasn't just one person giving the information. The most common answer was a vague 'we want to use plastic' rather than an outright 'These will be in HIPS', hence people repeatedly asking. In the end they admitted by their own actions that those pointing out that 90k wasn't enough money to make all that stuff in plastic were correct.
They chose 90k for their funding goal, I assume there was some maths used to pick that number. You can 'only' do those maths if you have production costs, so either they just made it up, had incorrect plastic costs, or they were using resin costs and were hoping to overfund (like many companies do) to produce it in plastic. The latter is the least insulting option I think.
Artemis Black wrote: If you have a Kickstarter for a 40mm product and you put up a render, or in this case a painted final figure, without mentioning 'at all' that it's a 75mm statue, it gives the message that 'that' is definitely what you are buying.
I can understand to a degree if they actually didn't have anything else to show. The pictures and miniatures from GenCon were not 75mm statues. In fact you can look at the 75mm version and compare it to the quality for their 35mm on as they have both pictures on their Facebook page. The miniatures looked really good in person.
You missed the part where the things they have to show were my reason for asking. The one mini that's been resculpted and made smaller is Bitsie and the smaller version is demonstrably worse. In fact I consider it a bad mini whereas the 75mm is fine. The other minis 'do' look fine but they were not resized 75mm minis so that again more proves my point than not.
Artemis Black wrote: No idea why they just can't say that it's a 75mm figure, most of their fans won't care anyway and it's more honest for the ones that do.
It is called marketing. Why do you think there isn't fine print in fashion magazines that say 'photoshop'. Even other gaming companies doctor their photos up or take pictures of larger models without saying they are larger models. The only thing that matters if the final product.
So your argument seems to be that while it is misleading, that's ok cos other people do that too? I've not seen other companies put up photos of large scale minis without mentioning that's what they are. I mean they might be out there but none have crossed my path. The closest I've seen are renders that people have mistaken for minis and they haven't been corrected, but that too is bad business practice and I would point it out if it landed in front of me. It 'should' be pointed out, it's not good.
Artemis Black wrote: What 'convention' would this be? I've worked in this industry for twenty years and sold hundreds of different companies products and haven't heard of this convention. 'Some' companies use a to the eyes measurement, pretty much zero companies use that eye measurement when telling you how big an individual miniature is unless they specify 'to the eyes', A measurement without that specification is an actual height.
Measurements to the eyes didn't start out as a standard. Historical wargames tend to be more truescale and measured to the tops of the head. The problem is that many companies were doing fancier, more detailed hair, larger helmets, etc and over the years it has been becoming a standard. Not stating that the measurement is specified to the eyes does not infer that it is the actual miniature height. Not to mention from the beginning they did state and specify that the measurement is to the eyes. But you are saying you won't say that because to be accurate, you would have to type out 'to the eyes', despite they have already stated that as their measurement.
If you ask someone how tall a mini is, you do not mean 'to the eyes'. They have been asked how tall actual minis are and have said 35mm. 'No' other company would do that that I know of, I have never once seen it happen before this kickstarter. Note I am not asking a vague 'what scale is your game in' cos as I'm about to reply to your second point, that's a mostly useless question anyway'.
Dark Severance wrote: Not to mention WH40k is advertised as 28mm heroic scale, but are closer to 32mm and depending on the race they can measure up to 28mm to the eyes and up to 35mm to the top of their heads. Infinity is also advertised as 28mm miniatures, they do not specify to the eyes. Not all the humans measure 28mm to the eyes, if we measured height to the top of the head they would be 35mm miniatures but it isn't advertised as a 35mm game. Wild West Exodus is advertised as 35mm miniatures and not all 35mm to the top of the head, some measure 32mm instead. Warzone is advertised as 32mm which is to the eyes, the miniatures are 35-40mm high (usually because of helmets) but when we refer to them we refer to 32mm, not 40mm. Even then it doesn't matter because races, factions, armor all change the height so they will vary... instead companies state "these miniatures are compatible with 28mm gaming" or "these will work with 32mm miniatures" or in this case "these are 35mm and do appear slightly bigger but still compatible with 32mm terrain.".
I agree with everything you just said, which is exactly why the point is important in the first place. Everything you listed above (with the exception of WWE) use one of the many scales which have basically become code for 'Matches ok with GW'. "28mm scale" 30mm heroic" "32mm" Whatever. They can all walk through doorways on GW scenery, they don't look like giants next to a Space Marine etc. It's annoying enough to those of us who work in the industry that half the companies use a d6 with one of the above on to identify their minis for marketing purposes instead of real measurements or scales but when a company who, and I'm trying to avoid the wrath of Ritides here, basically make 40mm tall minis which most definitely don't match with GW figures, classifies themselves as a '35mm scale' game then, to me, that's a step too far. There's marketing and then there's taking the mick. They even resized their minis to make some of them 'actually' 35mm to the eyes and still all of the minis in the boxset this Kickstarter is selling are '37mm to the eyes' or 40mm in regular speech.
I'm not calling them 40mm because somehow that's an insult, I'm calling them 40mm because I've pledged for the boxset and when I get that boxset and hold a ruler next to any of the 34 figures in it, by their own admission, all the measurements will start with a 4. If I was discussing Ultramarines and called them 33mm minis I am pretty certain I wouldn't get attacked for it (at least I hope not, I haven't spent enough time on dakka to actually state that with any certainty), because they 'are' 33mm minis despite them using '28mm scale' or whatever they use as a descriptor these days. How come with this company alone, telling the truth seems to be frowned upon?
Artemis Black wrote: If I was discussing Ultramarines and called them 33mm minis I am pretty certain I wouldn't get attacked for it ... because they 'are' 33mm minis despite them using '28mm scale' or whatever they use as a descriptor these days. How come with this company alone, telling the truth seems to be frowned upon?
The problem is that you are mixing terms frequently. There is a distinct difference between saying "this model measures 60mm to the crown of it's head" versus "this model is 60mm scale".
If you were to say the latter regarding something, you most definitely would be disagreed with on Dakka, or anywhere that discusses miniatures. Your using the terms interchangeably makes it extremely hard to tell what you're talking about. When you say "40mm minis" it sounds like you're saying "40mm scale minis". Just like people say "28mm minis" referring to GW, or "32mm minis" referring to Privateer Press, or "35mm minis" referring to Kingdom Death or Arena Rex.
I don't need to have the last word here at all, so I'm going to give you a chance to respond to this post (or any others referring to scale in the interim).
However, after you've made one additional post regarding scale in the wargaming industry, I do ask that you take further discussion of it to an independent thread, and allow this one to focus on the Fallen Frontiers campaign.
We offer these same protections to any company posting a thread in N&R - some criticism is fine, but at some point people interested in the campaign have to be allowed to discuss it. Thanks for understanding and feel free to PM me if you have any questions whatsoever!
Artemis Black wrote: What I have been critical of is the vague and misleading statements about various aspects of the kickstarter coming from whoever's in charge of that stuff and in fact the biggest things I complained about last kickstarter turned out to be 100% correct. The miniatures weren't the size they claimed and they weren't making stuff in plastic with the basic funding goal.
Except on day 1 on KS1 it was stated it was injection plastic and 35mm. It is all time stamped in their comments. When it was questioned what type of plastic is where it became vague because they didn't make any contracts and were waiting for the final results of the KS. Then it was stated some plastic, some metal... then later resin. Resin was finalized and in response to the back sliding because people didn't want cheap plastic and it didn't seem possible to HIPS given the amount of miniatures on the budget. Unfortunately since it wasn't budgeted around resin minatures there was no way they could of delivered those miniatures at the prices they were at without losing a lot of money.
That's mostly speculation, and it seems to be taking for granted that a company started a kickstarter having no idea how much anything they wanted to make would cost. Surely that's more insulting to Scale than just assuming they were having language problems or whatever the reasons touted around last time were. They repeatedly changed their mind on what the material was going to be and it also seemed liek there wasn't just one person giving the information. The most common answer was a vague 'we want to use plastic' rather than an outright 'These will be in HIPS', hence people repeatedly asking. In the end they admitted by their own actions that those pointing out that 90k wasn't enough money to make all that stuff in plastic were correct.
They chose 90k for their funding goal, I assume there was some maths used to pick that number. You can 'only' do those maths if you have production costs, so either they just made it up, had incorrect plastic costs, or they were using resin costs and were hoping to overfund (like many companies do) to produce it in plastic. The latter is the least insulting option I think.
Artemis Black wrote: If you have a Kickstarter for a 40mm product and you put up a render, or in this case a painted final figure, without mentioning 'at all' that it's a 75mm statue, it gives the message that 'that' is definitely what you are buying.
I can understand to a degree if they actually didn't have anything else to show. The pictures and miniatures from GenCon were not 75mm statues. In fact you can look at the 75mm version and compare it to the quality for their 35mm on as they have both pictures on their Facebook page. The miniatures looked really good in person.
You missed the part where the things they have to show were my reason for asking. The one mini that's been resculpted and made smaller is Bitsie and the smaller version is demonstrably worse. In fact I consider it a bad mini whereas the 75mm is fine. The other minis 'do' look fine but they were not resized 75mm minis so that again more proves my point than not.
Artemis Black wrote: No idea why they just can't say that it's a 75mm figure, most of their fans won't care anyway and it's more honest for the ones that do.
It is called marketing. Why do you think there isn't fine print in fashion magazines that say 'photoshop'. Even other gaming companies doctor their photos up or take pictures of larger models without saying they are larger models. The only thing that matters if the final product.
So your argument seems to be that while it is misleading, that's ok cos other people do that too? I've not seen other companies put up photos of large scale minis without mentioning that's what they are. I mean they might be out there but none have crossed my path. The closest I've seen are renders that people have mistaken for minis and they haven't been corrected, but that too is bad business practice and I would point it out if it landed in front of me. It 'should' be pointed out, it's not good.
Artemis Black wrote: What 'convention' would this be? I've worked in this industry for twenty years and sold hundreds of different companies products and haven't heard of this convention. 'Some' companies use a to the eyes measurement, pretty much zero companies use that eye measurement when telling you how big an individual miniature is unless they specify 'to the eyes', A measurement without that specification is an actual height.
Measurements to the eyes didn't start out as a standard. Historical wargames tend to be more truescale and measured to the tops of the head. The problem is that many companies were doing fancier, more detailed hair, larger helmets, etc and over the years it has been becoming a standard. Not stating that the measurement is specified to the eyes does not infer that it is the actual miniature height. Not to mention from the beginning they did state and specify that the measurement is to the eyes. But you are saying you won't say that because to be accurate, you would have to type out 'to the eyes', despite they have already stated that as their measurement.
If you ask someone how tall a mini is, you do not mean 'to the eyes'. They have been asked how tall actual minis are and have said 35mm. 'No' other company would do that that I know of, I have never once seen it happen before this kickstarter. Note I am not asking a vague 'what scale is your game in' cos as I'm about to reply to your second point, that's a mostly useless question anyway'.
Dark Severance wrote: Not to mention WH40k is advertised as 28mm heroic scale, but are closer to 32mm and depending on the race they can measure up to 28mm to the eyes and up to 35mm to the top of their heads. Infinity is also advertised as 28mm miniatures, they do not specify to the eyes. Not all the humans measure 28mm to the eyes, if we measured height to the top of the head they would be 35mm miniatures but it isn't advertised as a 35mm game. Wild West Exodus is advertised as 35mm miniatures and not all 35mm to the top of the head, some measure 32mm instead. Warzone is advertised as 32mm which is to the eyes, the miniatures are 35-40mm high (usually because of helmets) but when we refer to them we refer to 32mm, not 40mm. Even then it doesn't matter because races, factions, armor all change the height so they will vary... instead companies state "these miniatures are compatible with 28mm gaming" or "these will work with 32mm miniatures" or in this case "these are 35mm and do appear slightly bigger but still compatible with 32mm terrain.".
I agree with everything you just said, which is exactly why the point is important in the first place. Everything you listed above (with the exception of WWE) use one of the many scales which have basically become code for 'Matches ok with GW'. "28mm scale" 30mm heroic" "32mm" Whatever. They can all walk through doorways on GW scenery, they don't look like giants next to a Space Marine etc. It's annoying enough to those of us who work in the industry that half the companies use a d6 with one of the above on to identify their minis for marketing purposes instead of real measurements or scales but when a company who, and I'm trying to avoid the wrath of Ritides here, basically make 40mm tall minis which most definitely don't match with GW figures, classifies themselves as a '35mm scale' game then, to me, that's a step too far. There's marketing and then there's taking the mick. They even resized their minis to make some of them 'actually' 35mm to the eyes and still all of the minis in the boxset this Kickstarter is selling are '37mm to the eyes' or 40mm in regular speech.
I'm not calling them 40mm because somehow that's an insult, I'm calling them 40mm because I've pledged for the boxset and when I get that boxset and hold a ruler next to any of the 34 figures in it, by their own admission, all the measurements will start with a 4. If I was discussing Ultramarines and called them 33mm minis I am pretty certain I wouldn't get attacked for it (at least I hope not, I haven't spent enough time on dakka to actually state that with any certainty), because they 'are' 33mm minis despite them using '28mm scale' or whatever they use as a descriptor these days. How come with this company alone, telling the truth seems to be frowned upon?
I feel like most of this can be summed up by the point made in the Painting Buddha video. Its a 35mm scale. The humans ARE 35mm but other others that are not human are taller or shorter. Of course this is also basic logic. I do not expect my goblin in a 28mm scale to be 28mm and I don't expect a 9 foot alien and superhuman spliced alien to be as tall as a human. They should loom over them cause... well cause they are huge. So if the humans are the smallest species and they are 35mm to the eye its a 35mm scale. It just so happens that 2 of the factions are bigger than the humans and thats ok! (I assume the harvesters are as tall as humans as most of them seem to be undead humans.
As a side note, that is more on topic, does this make sense- If I pledge $1 now and then up the pledge to the assault trooper afterwards will I still get all the benefits/stretch goals of it? Cause I want the stretch goals but honestly between the holidays and the Antenocitis KS I have basically no cash.
As a side note, that is more on topic, does this make sense- If I pledge $1 now and then up the pledge to the assault trooper afterwards will I still get all the benefits/stretch goals of it? Cause I want the stretch goals but honestly between the holidays and the Antenocitis KS I have basically no cash.
I think this will be possible, but best to get extra for certain confirmation to be safe!
Artemis Black wrote: You missed the part where the things they have to show were my reason for asking. The one mini that's been resculpted and made smaller is Bitsie and the smaller version is demonstrably worse. In fact I consider it a bad mini whereas the 75mm is fine. The other minis 'do' look fine but they were not resized 75mm minis so that again more proves my point than not.
Spoiler:
A couple of them were actually re-sized to be created when they took them to GenCon. You can tell there are some slight differences from their painted 75mm version, but it isn't very noticeably. The issues could be chalked up more to paint job than anything. Is that the final production version that is going to print and be produced from? No it isn't. They already stated that all the miniatures will need to be slightly reworked and touched up for production and manufacturing. It is no different than seeing a concept render or sculpt. Half the renders shown for Robotech RPG Tactics didn't turn out the way shown in the final version either. Some were better and others were worse but we all knew those weren't the final production renders. People aren't completely blind or stupid but you are expecting final results when we haven't even gotten through the door yet. Also repeating the same thing over and over again like a broken record still doesn't change the fact they don't have anything else to show yet, that is sort the whole point for a Kickstarter to continue or get funding to complete, finalize or produce.
Artemis Black wrote: So your argument seems to be that while it is misleading, that's ok cos other people do that too?
Spoiler:
It is neither misleading nor leading. That is all based on your interpretation and perception. They have not stated that is the final render and that is the production model. Not to mention standard practice would be create your test version, make sure it passes, then create your final master for it. You don't just render, print and go to production. I can understand questioning but if you don't think a company knows how to run through a production, or don't have faith they will put out a good quality product to make customers happy then why bother backing. I've seen what they have been done, been happy with the quality so far so I am assuming they will provide the same quality they have been providing all along. Even then there is no guarantee, they are human and even great companies don't always have great sculpts. I like some things from Hasslefree and other things I think are way off. However I'm not going to actively keep going off on saying everything is crap and its all horrible or try to tell them how to run their company. I buy what I like, don't buy what I don't like... it is really that simple.
Artemis Black wrote: If you ask someone how tall a mini is, you do not mean 'to the eyes'. They have been asked how tall actual minis are and have said 35mm. 'No' other company would do that that I know of, I have never once seen it happen before this kickstarter.
Spoiler:
You can not always give accurate measurement of how tall a miniature is because it changes with hairstyle, type, pose, race that is why it has been changing. If I said my human was 50mm tall and someone gets it and decides to use the helmet that was 10mm tall (I know exaggeration and poor example), now the miniature is really 40mm. Now I'm going to be accused of lying because the miniature was really 40mm. The level from the bottom of the feet to eye level should never change, no matter what helmet or crazy hairstyle a miniature has. That is why it has been becoming the industry standard. Considering not all the miniatures are fully produced or posed I don't think there is anyone who can provide "true scale" measurements for every miniature in their line in the beginning of the Kickstarter. And if they did provide them, would anyone believe them without actually seeing the miniature next to a ruler (the answer is no as it has been proven).
Fallen Frontiers state in their FAQ:"The scale of our miniatures is 35mm to the eyes and are therefore compatible with other miniatures and scenery on the market. This means that a 1,80m tall human in a standing pose is 38mm tall from head to sole, which is also known as 1:48 scale (American O scale).
However, being either alien or super humans, some faction models in Fallen Frontiers game are slightly larger than regular humans. An Ares for example is 37mm tall from eyes to sole."
Now I can understand that is where you may be taking, "it's going to be a 40mm tall miniature", at least for Ares who aren't true humans but that is assuming the character is in a straight pose. They are going to be posed which means they won't be measuring or standing that way completely, there will be variance from 1-4mm. Just because you have not seen something, even given your experience, doesn't mean it does not happen or that you happen to be the industry only expert. There is no one true right way. You are right I have never seen it happen either... wait, there are actually quite a few companies that do this.
Kingdom Death in their FAQ:"Kingdom Death minis are all 35mm which is comparable to 28mm heroic. For reference, please check out this size comparison shot of an earlier KD miniature:"
It looks likes a 40mm tall miniature, yet being called 35mm and "comparable to 28mm heroic".
Warprime: "Our miniatures will be scaled to the same size as the most popular 28mm miniatures games. This means that most humans will be approximately 28mm to eye level while other units like our heavy armored Lancers will be closer to 32mm."
Dungeon Saga:"The miniatures are the industry standard 28-30mm scale (distance from base to eye level for a human figure), and are therefore compatible with the vast majority of other miniatures on the market."
I really don't have the time or energy to bother scouring them all to keep proving a point. What you are really referring to or trying to say is 'true scale', which some companies that actually are talking about full measurements from sole to top of head tend to say 'True Scale'.
MERCS Recon:"MERCS Miniatures are sculpted in true 35mm scale. When we say 35mm scale you know you can count on a figure that's representing a 6" tall human male stands 35mm from the soles of his feet to the crown of his head. Most figures in the MERCS Miniatures line will fall into this size height, however MERCS is a dynamic figure line so some figures may be shorter or taller to reflect the various shapes and sizes of characters we create."
Even though this is true scale miniature, measured 35mm from the bootom of their feet to the top of their heard, they are still compatible with WH40K. Not all of them even fully measure to 35mm can appear smaller than 30mm. That is why there is so much discrepancy in the industry and another reason for leaning towards a standard. So now are they liars because their miniatures didn't actually measure 35mm? Should we go after them and claim that their measurements are all completely wrong and they are really 30mm or call them all 30mm?
Artemis Black wrote: They can all walk through doorways on GW scenery, they don't look like giants next to a Space Marine etc. It's annoying enough to those of us who work in the industry that half the companies use a d6 with one of the above on to identify their minis for marketing purposes instead of real measurements or scales but when a company who, and I'm trying to avoid the wrath of Ritides here, basically make 40mm tall minis which most definitely don't match with GW figures, classifies themselves as a '35mm scale' game then, to me, that's a step too far. There's marketing and then there's taking the mick. They even resized their minis to make some of them 'actually' 35mm to the eyes and still all of the minis in the boxset this Kickstarter is selling are '37mm to the eyes' or 40mm in regular speech.
Spoiler:
Can you link me to where there are measurements of everything in the boxset? Did you also look at the previous miniatures comparison post and miniatures terrain post I made? They won't look like giants to space marines, although space marines will always look fat. The miniatures also shouldn't have any issues walking through doorways on GW scenery. Yes the heavy armor may but its heavy armor, we aren't expecting a Dreadnought to walk through the doorway. My eldar have trouble going through doorways as it is, good thing we suspend reality in miniature gaming.
Artemis Black wrote: I'm not calling them 40mm because somehow that's an insult, I'm calling them 40mm because I've pledged for the boxset and when I get that boxset and hold a ruler next to any of the 34 figures in it, by their own admission, all the measurements will start with a 4. If I was discussing Ultramarines and called them 33mm minis I am pretty certain I wouldn't get attacked for it (at least I hope not, I haven't spent enough time on dakka to actually state that with any certainty), because they 'are' 33mm minis despite them using '28mm scale' or whatever they use as a descriptor these days. How come with this company alone, telling the truth seems to be frowned upon?
Spoiler:
Except as I have shown they are not all going to end with a 4, some of them even to the top of their head are 38mm. Some will be taller, some shorter depending on race, armor and pose. Now if we are talking about a specific measurement to one of the miniatures, a race or certain class of that specific miniature that would be a different thing. The difference is you keep referring to the whole product line as 40mm, even when they've stated their measurements, how they classify and what their standards are which is 35mm. You seem intent on trying to push your own views or standards perceiving they are wrong because you have the only valid method. It may not be how you measure and that is fine but that is how they measured and defined it. When we talk about WH40K we don't specifically talk about individual miniatures, unless someone said "How big is that Ultramarine" or they were specifically talking just about the Ultramarines height. The whole line is referred to as 28mm heroic scale. Just like I don't refer to my Eldar as 35mm because that is how tall they are, they are still are referred to as 28mm. Or in more technical terms, they are comparable and compatible with 28-32mm gaming materials. If I went around claiming that all of WH40K were 40mm and should not be classified as 28mm because my Tyranid measured that... pretty sure people would have a problem with it as well.
@Artemis Black - I just want you to know overall I prefer to think that everyone has good intentions and aren't trying to be jerks and sabotage things. I always like to think that even though people may not agree or communicate on the same wave length, they are trying to be of a benefit. Granted that isn't always the case but I always try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. I don't think you are trying to ruin things but it does make it hard and skeptical for others, when the same thing is hashed over and over. It also doesn't help that this is currently the only Kickstarter listed that you are a backer of, which is probably why you get a lot of resistance too. It tends to make people feel like the intentions may not be the best or you may have joined just to cause discord. I do understand that doesn't necessarily mean you've never backed other kickstarters, I have a couple accounts, some I've used to sell pledges for and others so I can double up on some things so not everything I backed appears under mine either. Even though I don't agree with what you saying a good portion of the time and think your perceptions are mixed up and don't match mine. I know sometimes when there are discussions with lots of quoting back and forth between people, it can seem or start to be taken personal, and want you to know I don't have any bad feelings or hostile intentions towards you. I just simply don't see it the same way or agree.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ClockworkChaos wrote: I feel like most of this can be summed up by the point made in the Painting Buddha video. Its a 35mm scale. The humans ARE 35mm but other others that are not human are taller or shorter. Of course this is also basic logic. I do not expect my goblin in a 28mm scale to be 28mm and I don't expect a 9 foot alien and superhuman spliced alien to be as tall as a human. They should loom over them cause... well cause they are huge. So if the humans are the smallest species and they are 35mm to the eye its a 35mm scale. It just so happens that 2 of the factions are bigger than the humans and thats ok! (I assume the harvesters are as tall as humans as most of them seem to be undead humans.
That is a good point to which I want to add. Ares are not considered humans, they are larger sized human-like race genetically altered for war making them bigger and bulkier. Sayx are whom would be defined more closely as human, even though they were also modified but they weren't created to be the big bulks like Ares were.
ClockworkChaos wrote: As a side note, that is more on topic, does this make sense- If I pledge $1 now and then up the pledge to the assault trooper afterwards will I still get all the benefits/stretch goals of it?
The answer is yes. You can pledge afterwards and still get the benefits of the stretch goals if you upgrade to a pledge that has stretch goals. They answered it in the comments section of Update 6.
SCALE GAMES LLC: Yes, changing to higher pledges from $1 after the Kickstarter will give you access to the stretch goals.
The $1 pledge was one of the recommendations I pushed for given the multiple KS and the holidays going on now. It really was in their best interest to have had that and I'm glad they listened. On the plus side... I have also been told they are looking into the other suggestion about coming up with a method for more of a customization of the Core Box set. That doesn't mean it will happen but I can hope. I know if they do allow it, there are at least a few people I know who would finally back as that is the only thing holding them back.
Edited: Added in spoiler tags so no one would take a critical hit from the wall of text.
Artemis Black wrote: If I was discussing Ultramarines and called them 33mm minis I am pretty certain I wouldn't get attacked for it ... because they 'are' 33mm minis despite them using '28mm scale' or whatever they use as a descriptor these days. How come with this company alone, telling the truth seems to be frowned upon?
The problem is that you are mixing terms frequently. There is a distinct difference between saying "this model measures 60mm to the crown of it's head" versus "this model is 60mm scale".
If you were to say the latter regarding something, you most definitely would be disagreed with on Dakka, or anywhere that discusses miniatures. Your using the terms interchangeably makes it extremely hard to tell what you're talking about. When you say "40mm minis" it sounds like you're saying "40mm scale minis". Just like people say "28mm minis" referring to GW, or "32mm minis" referring to Privateer Press, or "35mm minis" referring to Kingdom Death or Arena Rex.
I don't need to have the last word here at all, so I'm going to give you a chance to respond to this post (or any others referring to scale in the interim).
However, after you've made one additional post regarding scale in the wargaming industry, I do ask that you take further discussion of it to an independent thread, and allow this one to focus on the Fallen Frontiers campaign.
We offer these same protections to any company posting a thread in N&R - some criticism is fine, but at some point people interested in the campaign have to be allowed to discuss it. Thanks for understanding and feel free to PM me if you have any questions whatsoever!
Out of interest, where am I mixing terms? I don't believe I am, I've not called this Kickstarter '40mm scale' I have said that their minis are 40mm, because that is the height of, so far, the majority of their miniatures and both of the races in the main boxset. They can call their game, 36.2mm scale or FF scale or 20mm uber mega heroic scale, it doesn't change what 'I' would call the individual minis, which is the actual size of them. When talking about the new Tarko Stahlen I 'have' described it as 38mm, because it is. When we see more humans and apparently Harvester, if they are all 38mm then that may change things but Scale have also said that heroes are larger, so if 2 of the 4 races are 40mm or larger and the heroes of the other 2 races are larger than 38mm also then the majority of figures they make are larger than 38mm, making the guy calling them '40mm minis' the only one here talking any sense.
I don't use '40mm scale', mostly because it's meaningless. You can't actually have a mm based 'scale', mm is reserved for height. Any use of a mm scale is basically, as I've said, a proxy for 'meh, somewhere about this height'. Which is fine if that's what you want to know, but if someone asks 'Hey, how tall is this mini' or 'how tall is this race', you'd better be giving an actual height, and not to the eyes. I would fire someone for answering such a simple question with such a stupid answer.
(Well I probably wouldn't because labour laws are a little stricter than that but rest assured they would not give such a stupid answer twice)
Dark Severance wrote: A couple of them were actually re-sized to be created when they took them to GenCon. You can tell there are some slight differences from their painted 75mm version, but it isn't very noticeably. The issues could be chalked up more to paint job than anything. Is that the final production version that is going to print and be produced from? No it isn't. They already stated that all the miniatures will need to be slightly reworked and touched up for production and manufacturing. It is no different than seeing a concept render or sculpt. Half the renders shown for Robotech RPG Tactics didn't turn out the way shown in the final version either. Some were better and others were worse but we all knew those weren't the final production renders. People aren't completely blind or stupid but you are expecting final results when we haven't even gotten through the door yet. Also repeating the same thing over and over again like a broken record still doesn't change the fact they don't have anything else to show yet, that is sort the whole point for a Kickstarter to continue or get funding to complete, finalize or produce.
Nobody is expecting final results, hence why I haven't requested that. I have stated that it is misleading to show a large scale miniature 'without mentioning that fact'. Note that if they showed the 75mm 'and' mentioned that fact I would have zero complaint. From a company that lied about the size of miniatures last time around I expect them to make mroe of an effort to not be misleading and frnakly I'd expect any company to be more upfront than that anyway.
(I also find it disingenuous to accuse someone of saying the same thing over and over when the reason we are still talking is because you are doing the exact same thing to me)
Dark Severance wrote: It is neither misleading nor leading. That is all based on your interpretation and perception. They have not stated that is the final render and that is the production model. Not to mention standard practice would be create your test version, make sure it passes, then create your final master for it. You don't just render, print and go to production. I can understand questioning but if you don't think a company knows how to run through a production, or don't have faith they will put out a good quality product to make customers happy then why bother backing. I've seen what they have been done, been happy with the quality so far so I am assuming they will provide the same quality they have been providing all along. Even then there is no guarantee, they are human and even great companies don't always have great sculpts. I like some things from Hasslefree and other things I think are way off. However I'm not going to actively keep going off on saying everything is crap and its all horrible or try to tell them how to run their company. I buy what I like, don't buy what I don't like... it is really that simple.[/quote[
I'm afraid not. You have made a simple strawman by associating my simple logical questioning with 'saying things are crap', which I have not done. And stating that they also haven't said that it's the final model is just a silly argument.
Dark Severance wrote: You can not always give accurate measurement of how tall a miniature is because it changes with hairstyle, type, pose, race that is why it has been changing. If I said my human was 50mm tall and someone gets it and decides to use the helmet that was 10mm tall (I know exaggeration and poor example), now the miniature is really 40mm. Now I'm going to be accused of lying because the miniature was really 40mm. The level from the bottom of the feet to eye level should never change, no matter what helmet or crazy hairstyle a miniature has. That is why it has been becoming the industry standard. Considering not all the miniatures are fully produced or posed I don't think there is anyone who can provide "true scale" measurements for every miniature in their line in the beginning of the Kickstarter. And if they did provide them, would anyone believe them without actually seeing the miniature next to a ruler (the answer is no as it has been proven).
I have no idea what any of this is? Nobody has asked for the measurement of a miniature with a silly hat or a silly pose? This is just random general discussion. Most of these guys (berserkers excepted) are just standing there. If asked for the height of any mini they should be able to answer it in seconds. Hell even if it has got a silly height it's damn easy to estimate the head measurement anyway, again, I've been doing this for twenty years. I have no idea why anyone thinks that if you asked a mini company how tall a mini was that you'd get the answer back 'to the eyes', go try it, see what happens.
Dark Severance wrote: Now I can understand that is where you may be taking, "it's going to be a 40mm tall miniature", at least for Ares who aren't true humans but that is assuming the character is in a straight pose. They are going to be posed which means they won't be measuring or standing that way completely, there will be variance from 1-4mm. Just because you have not seen something, even given your experience, doesn't mean it does not happen or that you happen to be the industry only expert. There is no one true right way. You are right I have never seen it happen either... wait, there are actually quite a few companies that do this.
<snipped>
I really don't have the time or energy to bother scouring them all to keep proving a point.
Good, because that's not a point. Well it was, it just wasn't a point that's relevant to the discussion. I already said all of the above, companies randomly describe their minis for marketing purposes. That does 'not' mean that people should be censored into using their made up definitions. If talking about minis of a certain height I'm going to use that height, anything else is simply stupid.
Dark Severance wrote: What you are really referring to or trying to say is 'true scale'[/u][/b], which some companies that actually are talking about full measurements from sole to top of head tend to say 'True Scale'.
I can assure you I am not trying to say another made up marketing term.
Dark Severance wrote: MERCS Recon:"MERCS Miniatures are sculpted in true 35mm scale. When we say 35mm scale you know you can count on a figure that's representing a 6" tall human male stands 35mm from the soles of his feet to the crown of his head. Most figures in the MERCS Miniatures line will fall into this size height, however MERCS is a dynamic figure line so some figures may be shorter or taller to reflect the various shapes and sizes of characters we create."
Even though this is true scale miniature, measured 35mm from the bootom of their feet to the top of their heard, they are still compatible with WH40K. Not all of them even fully measure to 35mm can appear smaller than 30mm. That is why there is so much discrepancy in the industry and another reason for leaning towards a standard. So now are they liars because their miniatures didn't actually measure 35mm? Should we go after them and claim that their measurements are all completely wrong and they are really 30mm or call them all 30mm?
If you wanted to, but it would be silly because they have gone out of their way to tell you that their minis will be different heights already and as I know the guys at MERCs I'm pretty sure that if you went on their facebook and asked them how tall any mini of theirs was they'd tell you the actual answer. Also they don't have that as their scale and then produce 60 percent of miniatures not in it.
(Also, i have no idea if it matters but the 2 minis in that comparison are from the first batch released before they even had a game, no idea if they have become larger but that does sometimes happen a la Infinity so the text may refer to currently manufactured minis)
Dark Severance wrote: Can you link me to where there are measurements of everything in the boxset? Did you also look at the previous miniatures comparison post and miniatures terrain post I made? They won't look like giants to space marines, although space marines will always look fat. The miniatures also shouldn't have any issues walking through doorways on GW scenery. Yes the heavy armor may but its heavy armor, we aren't expecting a Dreadnought to walk through the doorway. My eldar have trouble going through doorways as it is, good thing we suspend reality in miniature gaming.
The boxset is full of Riff and Ares. I don't need to point to anything, Scale Games are the ones saying those two races are larger than humans and that the heroes are larger again than regular troops. In this case your argument would be with them, not me.
And a 40mm tall miniature will, of course, look like giants next to a 33mm space marine. Feel free to take that comparison pic and see how it goes.
Dark Severance wrote: Except as I have shown they are not all going to end with a 4, some of them even to the top of their head are 38mm. Some will be taller, some shorter depending on race, armor and pose. Now if we are talking about a specific measurement to one of the miniatures, a race or certain class of that specific miniature that would be a different thing. The difference is you keep referring to the whole product line as 40mm, even when they've stated their measurements, how they classify and what their standards are which is 35mm.
You haven't shown that, unless you are talking about something I've missed? The box set is full of the larger races. The only mini shown not be standing pretty much straight up is Sihlas Fenn and he has shown by Scale Games to be 40mm even bent over like that, so he's like a 50mm mini.
Dark Severance wrote: You seem intent on trying to push your own views or standards perceiving they are wrong because you have the only valid method. It may not be how you measure and that is fine but that is how they measured and defined it. When we talk about WH40K we don't specifically talk about individual miniatures, unless someone said "How big is that Ultramarine" or they were specifically talking just about the Ultramarines height. The whole line is referred to as 28mm heroic scale. Just like I don't refer to my Eldar as 35mm because that is how tall they are, they are still are referred to as 28mm. Or in more technical terms, they are comparable and compatible with 28-32mm gaming materials. If I went around claiming that all of WH40K were 40mm and should not be classified as 28mm because my Tyranid measured that... pretty sure people would have a problem with it as well.
Of course they would, but again more strawman as nobody is doing that. If GW had a kickstarter that was mostly Tyranids and said the Kickstarter was '28mm scale' without bothering to mention that the Tyranids were 54mm tall or showing any comparison photos for them or ruler shots however people 'would' have a problem with that.
I know this from personal experience because Dark Age did it with the Dragyri. I received a large number of complaints from early customers before I could update the website to say their actual size (Dark Age is also '28mm/30mm/whatever random thing means like GW' but the Dragyri are basically 50+mm minis as they are meant to be 9ft tall+).
This kickstarter has one ruler shot for a human, and one ruler shot for an Ares. That's it. And it shows the Ares as 40mm and the human as 38mm. There's also one comparison shot where it's shown the bent over Sihlas Fenn is the same size as the Ares guy. Everything else is just going on what they've said themselves.
Dark Severance wrote: It also doesn't help that this is currently the only Kickstarter listed that you are a backer of, which is probably why you get a lot of resistance too. It tends to make people feel like the intentions may not be the best or you may have joined just to cause discord. I do understand that doesn't necessarily mean you've never backed other kickstarters, I have a couple accounts, some I've used to sell pledges for and others so I can double up on some things so not everything I backed appears under mine either. Even though I don't agree with what you saying a good portion of the time and think your perceptions are mixed up and don't match mine. I know sometimes when there are discussions with lots of quoting back and forth between people, it can seem or start to be taken personal, and want you to know I don't have any bad feelings or hostile intentions towards you. I just simply don't see it the same way or agree.
Actually this 'is' the only Kickstarter I have personally backed (I have backed as HF too, just to show support to friends). As a retailer I get stuff at a discount anyway so don't usually care about the KS discounts and haven't yet seen any KS exclusives that I just have to have. I backed this one simply because they have priced it so insanely cheap that I don't believe that even as a retailer I will get it this cheap again. I've only backed for the box set as if I want the heroes I 'will' be able to use a retailer discount in the future for those, plus I only really like the Riff anyway, the Sayx are an excellent design but as humans are, and not intending to be sarcastic here, simply too big to go with anything else I own.
(It's my professional opinion that they will realise this themselves during the fulfillment stage)
However, as I could discuss it here even without being a backer and have only commented on the actual KS twice (because someone was annoying me repeatedly saying the last kickstarter was in plastic) it's not really much of an anti-me point. Backer or not this conversation would still be happening.
And for the record I don't take it personally either. I don't know you or pretty much anyone who has made any anti-me remarks (not including you in the latter) so it would be rather silly of me too. The trolling ones I always just find amusing, hence getting into trouble with Ritides for being sarcastic about it. The actual discussion posts, like this, are just fine. I'm not sad enough to care that someone disagrees with me
I have a question for you. If you saw a kickstarter for a pack of actual fantasy giants, no ruler shot, no comparison shot and you asked them 'How big are your minis' and they said 'They are in 28mm scale' with no further info, how annoyed would you be?
For me, that is literally the most useless answer they could have given outside of just saying 'potato'. How come that doesn't apply to closer in size cases? The boxset is the main focus of this Kickstarter, there are zero humans in it, so knowing the 'scale of the humans' is useless to a customer buying the boxset. Knowing the 'size' of the minis in the boxset is the useful measurement, and by Scale Games own accounts they are 40mm tall. That's why I objected, despite humans being the norm generally, to FF using them as their scale. They aren't in the box set, which indicates they aren't the focus of the universe. They just happen to be shorter and therefore allow them to use a smaller number and appeal to a larger audience. It's marketing flim flam, which again, isn't remotely unique to this company, but I'll be damned if I'm going to use it in normal conversation.
ClockworkChaos wrote: As a side note, that is more on topic, does this make sense- If I pledge $1 now and then up the pledge to the assault trooper afterwards will I still get all the benefits/stretch goals of it?
The answer is yes. You can pledge afterwards and still get the benefits of the stretch goals if you upgrade to a pledge that has stretch goals. They answered it in the comments section of Update 6.
SCALE GAMES LLC: Yes, changing to higher pledges from $1 after the Kickstarter will give you access to the stretch goals.
The $1 pledge was one of the recommendations I pushed for given the multiple KS and the holidays going on now. It really was in their best interest to have had that and I'm glad they listened. On the plus side... I have also been told they are looking into the other suggestion about coming up with a method for more of a customization of the Core Box set. That doesn't mean it will happen but I can hope. I know if they do allow it, there are at least a few people I know who would finally back as that is the only thing holding them back.
Ok, thanks! That is great to hear. I need to see if I can warm up to the Ares now. If they give that new hidden stretch goal female hero as a free add-on then I would be down. She looks pretty awesome.
Artemis Black wrote: Out of interest, where am I mixing terms? I don't believe I am, I've not called this Kickstarter '40mm scale' I have said that their minis are 40mm, because that is the height of, so far, the majority of their miniatures and both of the races in the main boxset. They can call their game, 36.2mm scale or FF scale or 20mm uber mega heroic scale, it doesn't change what 'I' would call the individual minis, which is the actual size of them.
Spoiler:
You flip flop here and there although you may not realize it. Sometimes you refer to the actual true height, other times scale and sometimes both. Here you start explaining the reason you call them 40mm because of the height:
I have said that their minis are 40mm, because that is the height of, so far, the majority of their miniatures and both of the races in the main boxset.
Now you talk about the confusion surrounding scales but you are actually talking about the true height:
Despite the confusion surrounding the scales it's more about them using old, even larger minis, for images than what they've said, which is that the Sayx are 38mm and the Ares and Riff are 40mm plus.
Talking about scale but leading into height by mentioning sizes and saying you need to be transparent:
As someone who works in the miniatures world I am very aware of the necessity to make your 'scale' or miniatures sizes transparent and answer any questions about such succinctly and correctly.
Now you are explaining about how you would describe scale, that it should be the height or an average. The last time I checked I'm fairly sure WH40K isn't 28mm average. I don't know many games, unless they only have humans, that could even do this.:
So far, of all the miniatures FF have shown actualy made, the smallest race, the Sayx, are shown as 35mm to the eyes only, or 38mm tall. The rest of the minis currently shown as a real product not a render, are 40mm or even considerably taller. I wouldn't describe a games scales to the eyes in the first place, but even if I did I'd try for more of an average than just using one race who happens to be the shortest. To me this will always be a 40mm game, to avoid confusion at the least and accusations of being misleading to garner more sales at the worst.
Keep in mind the only confusion still seems to with what you believe and have defined. There hasn't been any confusion from the beginning because they have defined it clearly what size the miniatures are, outlining how they are measuring it. It is just you refuse to call it that because it doesn't match up with your personal opinion, perspective and ideas. You claim it is confusing and misleading, except it is clearly outlined in their FAQ and front pages:
However in this reboot they haven't lied about anything as far as I can see, my complaints were more of a 'please stop using larger minis without clarifying they are indeed larger, it's confusing' and that personally I would never call this game "35mm" in a million years.
We use it 'on that miniature' because she has a mohican so it's a shorter alternative than '25mm to the top of her head but not to the top of her hair' etc. Plus I didn't write that particular description or it may have said the long form anyway (Now that you've pointed it out to me it'll be changed after our premisesmove) However you will note it goes out of it's way to actually 'say' to the eye', it doesn't just say '25mm scale' and make you guess what that means.
Even though it was pointed out multiple times where it was done, it was ok because it goes out of its way to actually say to the eye. Which is apparently exactly what they do in their FAQ but somehow that isn't ok. And the other companies that also do it, apparently all have it wrong as well, making it is confusing to their customers. I don't see any confusion at all when they have been has transparent about size as just about every other company out there... not only in referring to what it is compatible and comparable with but the height. Just like WH40k really isn't 28mm but doesn't change the fact that it is considered that and advertised as that. Now whether you personally choose to call it that is a different story but by not following a norm, you end up being the cause of confusion for others.
Artemis Black wrote: ....I don't use '40mm scale', mostly because it's meaningless. You can't actually have a mm based 'scale', mm is reserved for height. Any use of a mm scale is basically, as I've said, a proxy for 'meh, somewhere about this height'. Which is fine if that's what you want to know, but if someone asks 'Hey, how tall is this mini' or 'how tall is this race', you'd better be giving an actual height, and not to the eyes. I would fire someone for answering such a simple question with such a stupid answer....
....I already said all of the above, companies randomly describe their minis for marketing purposes. That does 'not' mean that people should be censored into using their made up definitions. If talking about minis of a certain height I'm going to use that height, anything else is simply stupid...
So you aren't going to call a tomato a vegetable, even though it is really a fruit, because every company refers and markets it that way?
http://www.hfminis.co.uk/shop?product=female-armature-%28b%29~hfl504&category=accessories~converting "Single 28mm scale female armature." - Just want to point out that this not only is referring scale but also doesn't measure 28mm from the foot the head. It measures 27.5mm to where the eyes would be and is actually 29mm to the top of her head... but it's ok to say it is a 28mm scale, because it is obviously randomly described for marketing purposes. We also shouldn't use 28mm scale as a definition then and should be calling it 29mm.
If you wanted to, but it would be silly because they have gone out of their way to tell you that their minis will be different heights already and as I know the guys at MERCs I'm pretty sure that if you went on their facebook and asked them how tall any mini of theirs was they'd tell you the actual answer.
That was their answer when asked how tall their miniatures were. But when FF clearly answers with the size, shows a picture, gives you a variance of size and also explains the how and the way they measure... it isn't ok? The true height of miniature doesn't matter. It only matters that a height is given in a formula that lets customers determine if it will match up with their existing terrain, games and other miniatures.
Conversely their supporters, like yourself, have been overwhelmingly negative towards anyone asking such questions. Guess which one does more damage to a product?
I haven't been negative at all. I've simply answered questions and pointed out where opinions tend to diverge and given many examples. The questions have been answered but there are still pages talking about the same thing before I even started responding (as seen from the quotes I pulled earlier).
and a 40mm tall miniature will, of course, look like giants next to a 33mm space marine. Feel free to take that comparison pic and see how it goes.
I already did in two previous poses, you must of missed them. There were quite a few pictures with various miniatures from various companies, using their miniature examples to create a baseline based on my own miniatures. I even took them with terrain ranging from WH40K to Infinity terrain as well. They don't look like giants, but Space Marines look fat... they always look fat, it is the one thing I could never stand about them.
If GW had a kickstarter that was mostly Tyranids and said the Kickstarter was '28mm scale' without bothering to mention that the Tyranids were 54mm tall or showing any comparison photos for them or ruler shots however people 'would' have a problem with that.
I have a question for you. If you saw a kickstarter for a pack of actual fantasy giants, no ruler shot, no comparison shot and you asked them 'How big are your minis' and they said 'They are in 28mm scale' with no further info, how annoyed would you be?
I wouldn't be annoyed at all. I would have asked for either a ruler example of exactly what was 28mm, to the top of their head or to their eyes. If they didn't provide anything else then I would have never backed them because there was no information to go from to use for reference. The difference is FF provided all the information, they identified what the scale of their product is (keep in mind companies also think about future products), they identified how they measured it, they gave multiple comparison images with rulers, they identified the larger race and gave you measurements stating to their eyes. With that reference you can figure out true height, take existing miniatures to determine if it will work with your terrain or if you need new stuff. You can make a decision on if that is the direction you want to go. All that information was provided even before day 1 launch. Just like I did using their images as a baseline, comparing them to multiple miniature brands and terrains to determine how compatible it would be. But judging from the way you comment, how you comment and what you have said it implies they didn't do any of that or they are trying to use marketing flim flam, when they aren't. You just don't agree with their definitions that are clearly outlined.
The boxset is the main focus for you. You even said it yourself because of the value. It actually isn't the focus for a lot of backers, that is actually the current issue at the moment. I'm hoping it will be changed as I've been told they are looking into it. It is the one big limiting factor in their whole campaign because not everyone likes or wants Ares/Riff. Personally I'll be getting Sayx and hopefully selling the others, although the secondary market will probably be shot unless there is some changes to the core box set.
Weren't you guys asked to take the scale discussion elsewhere like 5 huge walls of texts ago? I don't think anyone in this thread is interested in seeing any more of it at this point. Frankly I'd be happy if Artemis Black was allowed to put a long text in the OP discussing his observations and the history of the previous campaign so new people could be informed and the thread could move on.
I must admit, the level of leniency I've seen given to Artemis's posts are shocking considering my own run in's with the moderation team in the past. I think this is way past any doubt that the poster is simply here to sabotage the project. Even IF, and that's a big IF Artemis was really here making 'innocent' observations, his affiliations with a competing company should have been a huge red light to the control team to stem his flow. You simply can't expect someone in his position to be impartial. It's clear I'm not alone in these thoughts.
At this point I think Artemis position is clear to anyone who reads this thread. So if we could just move on rather than trying to discuss anything with him we would only be doing good to the project. You know how thw saying goes: Never argue with an....
Alright guys, everyone has had a chance to put in one last response on the scale issue, so I would now ask that Dark Severance, Artemis Black, and anyone else interested in discussing it further take it to another thread. I'm not kidding, Dakka Discussions is perfect for this kind of thing! However, it does not belong in Fallen Frontiers N&R thread.
So, I am going to be following through on my below note and simply deleting any posts from here on out that are discussing the general scale issue. You can certainly discuss it on Dakka - however, this thread now needs to be left for people to discuss the Fallen Frontiers campaign with, rather than general industry standards. Again... thanks for understanding, and if you see a post that fits this description, please hit the yellow triangle rather than respond, and the mods will handle it (regardless of which "side" of the scale issue the post is for).
RiTides wrote: Okay, I'm going to be reining in this thread. I will leave the above posts because I had not yet posted this warning, but from here on out:
We will not be rehashing all of that discussion here. In this thread, please limit discussion to the current campaign. Accusations of lying, or otherwise "stirring up" people in this thread, will simply not be tolerated. Posts of this nature will be edited or deleted. Every company deserves the right to stand or fall on its own merits, and this thread will be for discussing the current campaign only.
If you want to have more general discussions about the company, or general business practices in the miniatures industry, etc please start a separate thread in Dakka Discussions.
I think this note should be very clear, but PM me with any questions... and this will be enforced in this thread from this point forward.
I was able to snag an EB1 Assault pledge last night so I'm really hoping they offer different factions in the box. If not, Mierce will be getting my 100.
I like all the Factions, Riff and Sayx being my favorites. Unfortunately Ares are my least favorite. Still, I actually want everything, which never happens. Great sculpting on display here.
Dark Severance wrote: I already did in two previous poses, you must of missed them. There were quite a few pictures with various miniatures from various companies, using their miniature examples to create a baseline based on my own miniatures. I even took them with terrain ranging from WH40K to Infinity terrain as well. They don't look like giants, but Space Marines look fat... they always look fat, it is the one thing I could never stand about them.
(I snipped the rest because of Ritides, and to be honest I don't think we're having the same argument anyway so I'm fine with the restriction as I'm pretty certain we were getting to the argument stage)
I haven't seen that, I did see an old red plastic Terminator, but I haven't seen a Space Marine. I could have missed it I suppose.
Dark Severance wrote: The boxset is the main focus for you. You even said it yourself because of the value. It actually isn't the focus for a lot of backers, that is actually the current issue at the moment. I'm hoping it will be changed as I've been told they are looking into it. It is the one big limiting factor in their whole campaign because not everyone likes or wants Ares/Riff. Personally I'll be getting Sayx and hopefully selling the others, although the secondary market will probably be shot unless there is some changes to the core box set.
About 50% of the money raised is via the boxset. Assuming the other 50% isn't all Sayx and Harvesters only and is split somewhat evenly, then the Ares and Riffs make up 75% of the current Kickstarter.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Delephont wrote: I must admit, the level of leniency I've seen given to Artemis's posts are shocking considering my own run in's with the moderation team in the past. I think this is way past any doubt that the poster is simply here to sabotage the project. Even IF, and that's a big IF Artemis was really here making 'innocent' observations, his affiliations with a competing company should have been a huge red light to the control team to stem his flow. You simply can't expect someone in his position to be impartial. It's clear I'm not alone in these thoughts.
*laugh* Man these attempts get more amusing every time. I work for a miniature company, actually I work for 3 at the moment. It's not a secret, nor is it relevant to my opinion on the matter for many and varied reasons all of which have been made totally clear more than once.
The manufacturer I work for doesn't make miniatures in the same scale as this company. Nor do they make a sci-fi game nor do they have any plans to do so. Only someone desperate to shut me up with their own agenda would try to draw a line between the two things over and over again. There are a 'lot' of companies running Kickstarters way better than this one and in the same scale as the manufacturer I work for and in the same genre as a game we 'do' have planned. And yet, I remain strangely silent on them, because whenever they crossed my path it was simply a normal Kickstarter where I knew what size things were and what material it was made from, and all of the other things I would simply be repeating myself about.
As I also work as a retailer, a company making a new game is actually very beneficial to me. We make money from those, that's how retail works. FF doing well is better for me, FF screwing things up and burning more people on kickstarter as a platform is worse for me. That doesn't mean I'm going to support any dodginess I see just to make some extra cash, that's not the kind of person I am, personally or business-wise.
Artemis Black wrote: ...my opinion on the matter for many and varied reasons all of which have been made totally clear more than once.
It has been made very clear, so please, as noted above, let this be your final say on the matter here (i.e. in this thread, you may feel free to start another elsewhere).
I also ask that Dark Severance and Delephont do not reply and allow the thread to move on from this. You may all continue the discussion elsewhere or via PM, of course.
Alpharius wrote: Happily, I love the Ares and the Riff, so I'm good to go with the box set.
I just need to figure out how to add in all their extras, as well as all the Sayx too!
I have to redo some of my calculations, I did try messing with combining two pledges like Assault Trooper + Faction but so far the best method is Assault Trooper + Add-ons, at least for me. That gets me complete Sayx minus the vehicle for $270 with shipping. I'm out of time so I'll redo calculations again later.
These rules are rough. I'm curious to see how balanced this game is. It seems like having x5 assault troops gives Riff a clear advantage based on the stats so far. I guess time will tell.
Alpharius wrote: Happily, I love the Ares and the Riff, so I'm good to go with the box set.
I just need to figure out how to add in all their extras, as well as all the Sayx too!
I have to redo some of my calculations, I did try messing with combining two pledges like Assault Trooper + Faction but so far the best method is Assault Trooper + Add-ons, at least for me. That gets me complete Sayx minus the vehicle for $270 with shipping. I'm out of time so I'll redo calculations again later.
ASSAULT TROOPER + add-ons does seem to the way to go...
So far, the only thing I don't is the vehicle design - none really work for me. They look more 'toy-like' than I'd prefer.
Maybe once we see actual physical models I'll change my mind though?
Hopefully vehicles won't dominate the game, and it won't end up mattering too much.
I am not really interested in the box, or the majority of ARES, may be the yellow but the armour seems really unimpressive, for me it needed more top details and less boob armour to work.
Sayx on the other hand look interesting, that been said the main box would be more interesting if it included the light Ares troops in.
Malkaven wrote: These rules are rough. I'm curious to see how balanced this game is. It seems like having x5 assault troops gives Riff a clear advantage based on the stats so far. I guess time will tell.
Where are these rules at? I would like to take a look over them but all I see is that they have the Spanish rules up. Sadly I cannot read that. How rough is "rough" exactly?
PsychoticStorm wrote: I am not really interested in the box, or the majority of ARES, may be the yellow but the armour seems really unimpressive, for me it needed more top details and less boob armour to work.
Sayx on the other hand look interesting, that been said the main box would be more interesting if it included the light Ares troops in.
You're just spoiled by the aweseomeness of the Gecko and new Mobile Brigada
All kidding aside, I see where you're coming from. I'm not a huge fan of the yellow paint either, but I think it'll look really sharp in a blue or red. Then again, once I do that they'll look like they're straight from Starcraft.... Which I'm okay with
Malkaven wrote: These rules are rough. I'm curious to see how balanced this game is. It seems like having x5 assault troops gives Riff a clear advantage based on the stats so far. I guess time will tell.
Where are these rules at? I would like to take a look over them but all I see is that they have the Spanish rules up. Sadly I cannot read that. How rough is "rough" exactly?
Here are the rules. I'm my opinion they are more like rough draft rather than Alpha. Not complete at all but enough where you can get an idea of how it will work.
Alpharius wrote: ASSAULT TROOPER + add-ons does seem to the way to go...
So far, the only thing I don't is the vehicle design - none really work for me. They look more 'toy-like' than I'd prefer.
Maybe once we see actual physical models I'll change my mind though?
Hopefully vehicles won't dominate the game, and it won't end up mattering too much.
I am in agreement, at the time the vehicle designs just don't work for me. They do kind of remind me of hasbro-ish, not that it is a bad thing but it doesn't mix well with any other vehicles or forces I have. I like things that I can intermingle and there is no way I can mix them with my current stuff. I can however mix their troops and proxy in my own vehicles which I think will work out better.
It is possible once they see physical models I could change my mind, but right now they mostly look like fast attack vehicles. I don't think they will be a huge dominance in the game, at least I hope not, but if they are I'll stick with proxing some existing vehicles. I have an old Bulkhead from the Transformers Cartoon which fits the scale that I could modify anyways ^_^
Well they have made some noises about the Painters pledge and thinking about it. While Its totally understandable the bunker mentality and answering questions with clinical answers. Its good to see some changes happen.
If they did a Heroes/painters pledge any free heroes would be money ploughed back into the pledge to spend on booster packs. Suppose its a game of wait and see now still another 2 weeks for something to happen.
Here are the rules. I'm my opinion they are more like rough draft rather than Alpha. Not complete at all but enough where you can get an idea of how it will work.
But that's is what Alpha is, what you are thinking is beta and this is a long way from beta.
In Sayx society, where each individual comes into the world pre-programmed for a specific task, it is unusual for a citizen to leave the easy road and try to get through the effort of learning about a field that is not his. That is the case of Bianca Carlson.
Bianca had always been small for her age, skinny and slim, virtues that are not usually good for a soldier. Life at the academy was quite difficult and even though she managed to endure the training just like her more rugged companions, soon she had to start using her ingenuity to pass tests than other members of the academy performed merely with physical strength. The tricks and ingenuity applied by Bianca allowed her to finish her training as a Sayx soldier, but were not enough to pass the final test which exceeded her physical abilities.
Defeated and angry Bianca left the facility where she had conducted the entrance test for the Sayx troops, when she heard the sound of someone approaching her clapping. It was Tarko, who had been taking care of her since she was 16 years old when her father died.
“Why are you clapping uncle Tarko? I have failed...”
“I wouldn’t be so sure of that...” Tarko reached out, giving Bianca a brown folder with a stamp reading "Confidential" in red on the cover.
"Nightstalker Infiltration Corps? What is this?" Bianca asked.
"Sounds like the kind of work that someone with your training skills could do, dont you think?"
- I like the card mechanic. I think the notion that you'll be able to tailor your deck to suit your particular playstyle is really appealing, but in order to do that they're going to need to set some restrictions beyond "only two of each card" in your deck. I think it has the potential to give you a lot of customization and flexibility. It isn't anywhere near where it needs to be to be great, though.
- The command points system and Krithium payment system actually seems like it could have some legs. Neither seem to be over complicated, but both will give you, again, some flexibility on the battlefield.
- I like that all units will have their own stat cards with special rules on it. I much prefer this to other army lists. If Corvus Belli decided to release card decks that did the same for all of their units, I'd buy it immediately.
- The art is really pretty!
The "Needs Work"
- 8.2MB for a 9 page file? Come on, man! That file size is silly large for the volume.
- Both the Strength and Training statistic are counter intuitive. Training dictates your ability to hit, only you don't roll against your own training, but against your opponent. You must score higher than their training score, so if their training is a 3+ you'd need to roll higher than a 3 to hit. IMO, You should be rolling against your own training for to-hits. Strength rolls are similar, and find the defender trying to roll higher than the attacker's strength roll to see if they are wounded. For example, if a gauss cannon were to hit, the defender would need to roll a 7+ to defend the attack, with the number of dice being rolled dictated by their Defense dice (and the way the rules read, anything over a 7, weapon wise, is unblockable unless you have an armored unit, and even then you barely have a chance on the demo game Gauss Cannon---that can't be right, can it?) Armored units seem to get a modifier (Ares units get a D6+1, for example). This is a bit less counter intuitive than the Training rolls to hit, but It still seems a bit clunky to me.
- The Initiative and Fatigue mechanic is bad. It's completely dependent on dice rolls, and then if you win the initiative too many times in a row (which again, is almost entirely contingent on dice rolling) your units are penalized. You do get to select whether you have the initiative or not, so I guess that allows you to mitigate it, but I'm not a fan of being punished for winning an arbitrary dice roll. I understand why they've implemented it (as I suppose it can mitigate one person always getting to go first in a round) but I still don't like it.
- There a ton of clarifications that need to happen in the rulebook before theyre even remotely ready to be in even an alpha form, and most are as simple as clarifying where a modifier is applied (is it applied to your roll or the attribute you're rolling against), how you pay for cards (it doesn't seem to indicate if it's done with Krithium or Command Points), or the visual breakdown of one of the Command/Equipment cards.
So yeah, those are my initial impressions. It certainly isn't a gak fest, but it's definitely a pre-alpha version of the rules that needs a lot of work. I don't think there's anything too revolutionary here, though the card mechanic is one I haven't really seen done real well before. I'm actually pretty okay with the rules being relatively simple and beer and pretzely, as I'm really not in the market for anything new and complicated (I'll have plenty to learn with N3 for that). As someone mostly interested in the models for "OOHH PRETTY MODELS" sake, I'm okay with a simple, fun rulesset for this game. There's just a lot of work to do on these rules to get it there so that we don't have GW length FAQs.
I disagree on the training, it makes sense and scales better to have the target unit be the target number than having the unit doing the action be the best there is.
The card mechanic is interesting, I should know, I toy with this idea for two years now, for something personal, I would suggest a system that shows how many cards of a type/ category can be included in the deck and separating the cards into types.
The Initiative/ Fatigue mechanic is interesting, I like how it allows to keep the momentum and the penalty give a push your luck element into it, but the way to achieve and maintain initiative is... lacking...
PsychoticStorm wrote: I disagree on the training, it makes sense and scales better to have the target unit be the target number than having the unit doing the action be the best there is.
Personally, I think the face2face type roll of Infinity is the best way to resolve a to hit (my dodge vs. your shooting accuracy) but it requires both players to roll. I think if they're going to have a single roll like 40k, then whether or not you hit should be contingent upon your actual model. I actually think their stat lines are a little bit too simplistic overall, but that's a whole different issue.
The card mechanic is interesting, I should know, I toy with this idea for two years now, for something personal, I would suggest a system that shows how many cards of a type/ category can be included in the deck and separating the cards into types.
Can you think of any other games that use something like that? I was wracking my brain and really couldn't. Which is cool. I think it would be neat if units could 'search' objectives on the field to draw additional equipment cards from a "general" equipment pile, but that may over complicate it.
The Initiative/ Fatigue mechanic is interesting, I like how it allows to keep the momentum and the penalty give a push your luck element into it, but the way to achieve and maintain initiative is... lacking...
Like I said, I understand why it's there, and I don't disagree with it in theory, but I agree that the way it is implemented in this pre-alpha is pretty poor.
Infinity has the best game system for a skirmish game, this is squad based so the face to face roll would be tricky to implement, at least without treating the squad as a single entity with models been the wound counters. for what it is I prefer the target is the target roll, because it scales better, imagine playing 40k where the BS requirement is based on the target, it would allow far better balance and make elite armies more survivable.
Of course the single D6 is an old mechanic that supports few tricks to balance, but with given tools I think especially with scalability (upwards) in mind target equals target roll works best.
The system I suggest? not in miniature wargames, but cardgames and boardgames using cards have a plethora of implementations.
I see, yes, it is quite poor, I would rather they used a mechanic were completing objectives or causing damage allowed the Initiative to be held, that's what I would do at least, a player consolidation move would actually end the initiative rather than some odd dice roll characters could be used to maintain or steal the initiative as an added layer of strategy, or cards since the system is already there.
No it is not, but for me as somebody who has wargaming systems as a hobby and has made quite a few game systems myself as an amateur of course, it ticks all the boxes I want and solves some of the design struggles I had in my quests to make something I would really want to play.
So in my subjective opinion, it is the best system for skirmish wargaming.
Hence why I said boardgames that uses cards but not wargames.
Adding card support is a recently emerging trend on wargames and I do not think we have yet seen some intriguing implementation, so far it is been used as an ability/ attack variant.
There is a fine line in what is what, one should never ignore the other as a source of inspiration, but, wargames as a whole have more streamlined and contained rules.
As Myth has shown boargamers have higher expectations from a system than wargamers do.
I will elaborate on the Hybrid game's use of cards.
So AP cards can be used to modify the skill level of a model (the value on a d10 you need to roll under to succeed).
Now coupled with that the models have 4 action types, with 6 levels of actions. A model has a rank in each type from 1-6. So the play of an Action Card also allows you to access higher (perhaps more useful) action ranks (each rank being slightly different).
Now each side in the game gets 4 cards each at the start. And the cards have different values (0-4) and the use of the cards is who ever has the initiative (models alternate in activation) chooses to play a card, then the opponent responds with one card, and then the active player gets to use one more.
Action cards also can be used to force discards of opponent cards, see their cards, or steal them etc.
Action cards are only gained when a model you own dies.
Now on top of those are event cards. You get two from your faction deck, drawn randomly and placed face down. The first is drawn when both sides make visual contact. And the second when you cause first blood. Some of these cards act immediately, others are held in reserve.
And finally there are the non-faction event cards, which are drawn when a model triggers an event counter. You can only activate another event counter once your opponent has done so. Some event counters in the scenarios are traps.
So lots of cards that are used to maintain some sort of balance to the game even as you lose models.
So you want to customize your starter box...
Comment
Hello everyone,
Today we come to you with an announcement that a lot of you have been asking for: the possibility of customizing your starter box!
We have thought long and hard about this, and after crunching through the numbers and stressing out our production manager, we have come to the conclusion that it is something feasible for us to do. It will require a lot more work, but we think it is worth it to satisfy our customers and expand our player base.
If, and only if, we hit the $85,000 mark and maintain it until the end of the campaign, then players will be able to choose one of the following 6 combinations for their starter box:
Ares vs. Riff (33 miniatures)
Ares vs. Sayx (33 miniatures)
Ares vs. Harvesters (33 miniatures)
Riffs vs. Sayx (38miniatures, +$15)
Riffs vs. Harvesters (38 miniatures, +$15)
Sayx vs. Harvesters (38 miniatures, +$15)
Once the pledge manager is out you are going to be able to make your choice. Please note that to choose any starter box that has 38 miniatures you will have to add +$15 to your pledge.
We are limiting your selection to only these 6 combinations and are not allowing the choice of picking the same force twice because it allows us to keep production at least a little bit easier. Anyone that has already picked a pledge level with a starter box does not have to change anything, and will still get to choose what factions they get in it.
So, what can you do to make this a reality?
Everyone that has been indecisive until now, or that has a friend who wanted to back but didn’t like the forces, or that knows someone that might be interested in the custom starter box, back now!
We have been listening to the community and want to make these changes to give you a better game, but we need your support for this. It is a big risk and the last thing we want to do is end up losing money, so the more people buy the starter box, the better it is for everyone.
Thank you all very much for the support, none of this would be possible without you!
That's a good decision. It seemed a very popular request, Ares in particular don't seem like the most popular force whereas Sayx seem particularly popular.
No idea why it would cause production manager issues, all the minis are already funded/going to be produced. You just make up the core sets, read the order and drop in the two that the customer picked (There's a guy in the KS comments who's been getting some real stick for telling them that I think). Still, they did it so that's the important part.
cincydooley wrote: Holy mother of god. This is cool. Did they say what the contents will be for each one? I'm assuming it's a combat starter?
I would imagine that it would be: 1 'leader' character, 1 other character, 1 generic officer, 1 heavy weapon, 10 basic troops & 5 elite troops. The 5 'special' troops (like the Riff Berserkers) and 3 'large' troops (like the Ares Hyperion) would still have to be bought separately. The only exception to this would be the Ares, which only have 10 basic troops in the box set (and is presumably why starter sets including them are cheaper), because they are inherently more elite.
Edit - they actually did give an estimate:
We are still tinkering with it a bit, but you can expect something like the following:
Ares - Bitsie, Blaze, Officer, Heavy Weapon, Ares Troopers
Riffs - Fink, Sihlas, Officer, Heavy Weapon, Riff Troopers, Assault Troopers
Sayx - Tarko, Diane, Officer, Heavy Weapon, Sayx Troopers, Assault Troopers
Harvesters - Sphynx, Virus, Cybermasters, Necroslaves, Slave Warriors
-Double Edit - if you are planning on buying all the factions, definitely swap out Ares from the starter. It makes no difference if you get it as one of the $50 faction starters (still get 10 either way), and you get a variant Bitsie to lead them as a Kickstarter freebie anyway. You'll then be able to get 5 extra basic troops for a non-Ares faction for $15 rather than the normal $30.
No idea why it would cause production manager issues, all the minis are already funded/going to be produced. You just make up the core sets, read the order and drop in the two that the customer picked (There's a guy in the KS comments who's been getting some real stick for telling them that I think). Still, they did it so that's the important part.
.
Aside from them either having to make:
A - Multiple boxes for correct packaging, or
B - Making a single generic box.
Either way, neither is probably what they had planned for.
They were planning a 'backers only' core box sleeve (full box?) anyway, it seems like that would be an opportunity to just have all four factions on the 'backers only' sleeve.
If everyone switches to something that isn't Ares/Riff I'd imagine that the retail box might be changed up anyway.
YES FINALLY! This actually makes it easier to talk my friends into playing now. I was actually thinking they would go a different route by creating a new pledge, which gets you a 'customized core box'. It wouldn't be as much as a loss leader than Assault Trooper, but would be halfway between trying to start a complete new faction.... however I am good with this too. Well, we need to get to $85k, but as a stretch goal that is actually a great idea.
Ares vs. Riff (33 miniatures)
Ares vs. Sayx (33 miniatures)
Ares vs. Harvesters (33 miniatures)
Riffs vs. Sayx (38miniatures, +$15)
Riffs vs. Harvesters (38 miniatures, +$15)
Sayx vs. Harvesters (38 miniatures, +$15)
We are still tinkering with it a bit, but you can expect something like the following:
Ares - Bitsie, Blaze, Officer, Heavy Weapon, Ares Troopers
Riffs - Fink, Sihlas, Officer, Heavy Weapon, Riff Troopers, Assault Troopers
Sayx - Tarko, Diane, Officer, Heavy Weapon, Sayx Troopers, Assault Troopers
Harvesters - Sphynx, Virus, Cybermasters, Necroslaves, Slave Warriors
Given the information, what we currently know about the forces and the break down of the boxes (after all they still want to sell boosters and vehicles) I am fairly certain the breakdown will be similar to below. These are supposed to be starters so I wouldn't expect other boosters because it could risk causing other issues or losing money, although with this change I'm certain it will definitely make their KS better. Unfortunately I don't know enough about the balance of the troopers to figure out which forces need more or less. This is all based on the initial core box, I'm assuming the Ares are the heavies and everything else is about on par (Harvesters given lore might be like Ares). So maybe a break down of something like this:
Ares vs Riff, 33 miniatures (not counting the stretch goals):
- Ares: Bitsie, Blaze, Officer, Heavy Weapon, 10 Troopers (14 miniatures)
- Riff: Fink, Sihals, Officer, Heavy Weapon, 10 Troopers, 5 Assault Troopers (19 miniatures)
Ares vs Sayx, 33 miniatures (not counting the stretch goals):
- Ares: Bitsie, Blaze, Officer, Heavy Weapon, 10 Troopers (14 miniatures)
- Sayx: Tarko, Dianne, Officer, Heavy Weapon, 10 Troopers, 5 Assault Troopers (19 miniatures)
There might be some alternations depending on stats of troops, for example Harvesters may include 5 Necroslaves + 10 Slave Warriors or Sayx could be 5 Troopers + 10 Assault troopers instead. Without actual stats, knowing more about the game it is hard to guess what would be a more balanced starter set but it should be the above, give or take here and there.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
cincydooley wrote: Aside from them either having to make:
A - Multiple boxes for correct packaging, or
B - Making a single generic box.
Either way, neither is probably what they had planned for.
Not really. The Core Box is a KS Exclusive box anyways so it isn't a retail box and is designed only for this KS. The printing is being done in China and the miniature manufacturing done in Spain. I doubt they would send miniatures to China to box up, they will probably have the boxes sent in house and they will package them there. They are already going to have to put the items in the box to seal so they should already have a plan for that. They could outsource the packaging locally (someplace else doesn't make sense) so it really isn't something they have to worry about.
Historically KS have done this to a degree anyways. Set up an assembly line, move the box down and drop the items in. With the way they set up the packages (it isn't complete customization but it is WAY better than before), they could set up 6 rows and move through it fairly quickly.
Dark Severance wrote: Not really. The Core Box is a KS Exclusive box anyways so it isn't a retail box and is designed only for this KS. The printing is being done in China and the miniature manufacturing done in Spain. I doubt they would send miniatures to China to box up, they will probably have the boxes sent in house and they will package them there. They are already going to have to put the items in the box to seal so they should already have a plan for that. They could outsource the packaging locally (someplace else doesn't make sense) so it really isn't something they have to worry about.
I mean, that doesn't really follow. They were planning on doing a KS exclusive cover. Not the full box. Typically the back of your box details the contents. If they're now allowing for customizable ones, it could change the KS exclusive box considerably, meaning more work, meaning more areas something can be screwed up, meaning it's easily something that could stress a PM out.
And that doesn't even consider that, if they do end up doing multiple boxes (6 of them for all possibilities), then that adds more QC work on the back end, where whomever is assembling the boxes has to ensure that the contents match the box. And while getting a package with the wrong back contents on it may not be a problem for you, or your friends, I think we're all realistic to understand that we're a part of a hobby where the demographic can assuredly be anal retentive and neckbeardy about things like that.
My point is that dismissing with a statement like this:
No idea why it would cause production manager issues,
Is ignorant of the process that a PM has to go through to launch a new product CORRECTLY.
Pilgrim_uk wrote: According to the comments Alpharius your final pledge price is $275 to get the 2 box sets.
That is correct. It would break down something like this:
Assault Trooper (Ares/Riff) with shipping to US, $105 + 25 = 130
Assault Trooper (Sayx/Harvesters) with shipping to US, $120 + 25 = 145
$145 + $130 = $275: 71 miniatures in total, $3.87 per miniature is a great value!
Pilgrim_uk wrote: Single account with the ability to customise box contents but it will only be available once they hit 85k which I imagine be met at some point .
I know, but they're talking about buying 2 starter boxes, so unless I'm missing something that would require two users and two pledges. Would love to be able to do it with only 1 pledge.
cincydooley wrote: I mean, that doesn't really follow. They were planning on doing a KS exclusive cover. Not the full box. Typically the back of your box details the contents. If they're now allowing for customizable ones, it could change the KS exclusive box considerably, meaning more work, meaning more areas something can be screwed up, meaning it's easily something that could stress a PM out.
I am not saying it wouldn't stress a PM out, any and all KS stress PMs out completely even when someone else is doing manufacturing. I am a Project Manager for my company, granted its different than a production manager but both positions are stressful in terms of deadlines, changes and delivery.
It does make sense what you mean by the back of the box, since it is a different cover from the commercial version. It depends on what they mean by cover, we haven't seen a real box, just concept and mockups. The cover could simply just be a sleeve, it all depends on what they define as 'cover' since technically a sleeve is a cover The mockup shows an actual cover though so it most likely won't be a sleeve. But I have unfortunately been disappointed by a couple KS that did that for their box. Even at GenCon Upper Deck were selling a GenCon exclusive VS box and it was simply a sleeve on a 800 count card box.
It is also possible the reason for the $85k goal, lets them increase their printing or make suitable changes so they could get multiple multiple box designs done. They could still have the one KS Exclusive cover with multiple different backs, although that would be a nightmare. It would probably be easier to print a separate KS exclusive box, includes back and front cover and then don't' make modifications to their existing retail boxes. A lot depends on what they are showing on the back of the box. Ideally the back lists contents, but some boxes show images of contents on the side (top cover) and have more a generic story or description on the back. It isn't usually ideal but becoming more popular for shelving reasons at a LGS. There are a few options but given the stretch goal I would believe that is covering the extra costs.
I'm still trying to figure out how they are going to MSRP that for retail, given the KS cost, whats in the box, distribution and markup... but that is a different discussion. They could do what some companies have done and simply deal with it all in house through a web-store and not distribute through retail stores.
cincydooley wrote: And that doesn't even consider that, if they do end up doing multiple boxes (6 of them for all possibilities), then that adds more QC work on the back end, where whomever is assembling the boxes has to ensure that the contents match the box. And while getting a package with the wrong back contents on it may not be a problem for you, or your friends, I think we're all realistic to understand that we're a part of a hobby where the demographic can assuredly be anal retentive and neckbeardy about things like that.
I am quite sure that there will be some that do get the wrong contents. It has happened to quite a few KS. I missed stuff from Krosmaster, Relic Knights, and Khaosball. They either had something extra or was missing items. In the terms of Krosmaster I ended up with a Miniatures Case that I didn't even order, on the plus side I was told to keep it. Not an ideal situation but that is standard as part of the job whenever you have multiple add-ons. Customization of a core box is really just an extension of that to a degree. It does add extra work and labor hours but there are ways to mitigate it with a good team, assembly line and final check person before sealing the package.
I believe the benefits are definitely going to outweigh the headache and risks. I can agree with your point about the statement being misleading. It probably should at least read something more like, "It shouldn't cause a production manager, much more issues or stress, given an operation where there is multiple distribution, sorting, packaging, planning involved with a KS campaign". KS campaigns at times are dynamic, some try to make plans and have everything set out but a lot of them tend to start to fly by the seat of their pants as modifications through-out the campaign.
Pilgrim_uk wrote: Single account with the ability to customise box contents but it will only be available once they hit 85k which I imagine be met at some point .
I know, but they're talking about buying 2 starter boxes, so unless I'm missing something that would require two users and two pledges. Would love to be able to do it with only 1 pledge.
No, with one user you buy an assault pledge and raise it up to another assaul pledge. Later in the PM you choose dettails. 1 user 2 pledges (but two shippings)
Completely agree that it makes a ton more sense to KISS in regards to the box, but thats another decision that needs to be made, and I know if I was told with only two weeks before the KS ended that there could be a change, I'd be a little stressed about the potential of that additional work and QC risk.
I think the "fly by the seat of their pants attitude" is actually what gets a lot of these projects in trouble. The more rigid ones and the ones with fewer options and a more focused goal almost ALWAYS deliver in a more efficient manner, in regards to both quality and timeliness.
I think i just get a little frustrated sometimes, being, like you, a PM (though I do a fair amount of new product management as well) when people don't understand how small changes really can create that ripple effect across a project plan.
Pilgrim_uk wrote: Single account with the ability to customise box contents but it will only be available once they hit 85k which I imagine be met at some point .
It was already asked if someone wanted to purchase an 'Additional Pledge' they would be able to do this. It isn't unheard of in KS. You simply increase your pledge amount by the 'other pledge' cost and shipping and add it to your existing pledge. When the Pledge Manager comes out later you will then be able to choose how it is distributed. You are able to do this even without hitting the $85 goal.
As an example if you were already an Assault Trooper pledge but interested in adding in the Faction pledge, you would just go to "Manage Your Pledge" and increase your pledge by $185 + whatever shipping would be for your region and that pledge. The total pledge without shipping would be $290.
I am not sure if they are shipping through a distribution center in the US. I would guess no but $25 for the amount of resin miniatures, boxing, seems about right given where it is coming from. You would be ordering twice the amount. However since I could potentially add a plethora of Add-ons and not have it not increase my shipping, I believe that is helping to offset that otherwise it will end up costing them more money in shipping. Even currently I am going to guess shipping will end up being at least $5k over their estimates.
All of the Kickstarter rewards will be shipped directly from our warehouses in Spain and USA, so all of our EU and USA backers will not have to pay import taxes.
Btw are you going to post more pics with the mobile brigada next to the terrain?
I am pretty sure its not the box that is the issue, but the planned miniatures production, its different to plan for a lot of Ares and Riff and another to plan for whatever the hell the pledgers choose after the kickstarter ends.
On one hand you have X and on the other hand the process fo calculating what you need to make starts way later, pushing much stuff back.
For the price you are paying for the mini's surely the Postage isn't that bad. As Dark pointed out "71 miniatures in total, $3.87 per miniature is a great value!"
cincydooley wrote: I think the "fly by the seat of their pants attitude" is actually what gets a lot of these projects in trouble. The more rigid ones and the ones with fewer options and a more focused goal almost ALWAYS deliver in a more efficient manner, in regards to both quality and timeliness.
It really does depend on the project. Using FF as an example, to some degree it makes sense to have a Core Box if you base the model of of existing companies. Even Infinity Operation: Icestorm is a great idea even if you aren't interested in Nomads or PanOceania. However it is much cheaper and easier to switch armies in Infinity than it would be in FF. There is a decent secondary market for Infinity that a person could still sell the items off or trade for existing armies. Even by purchasing Icestorm you aren't necessarily locked into those two factions entirely. Dark Vengeance is also another great value with the ability to trade or sell of existing models.
Looking at similar examples they probably assumed that is a good direction. It isn't completely a bad direction but there are a lot of unknowns to take into effect. There isn't an existing customer base, there isn't an existing secondary market yet and it's a complete unknown. To them though they probably thought our universe is centered around the Ares and Riffs conflict, with other factions on the side. They want to share that story with everyone and those in their minds are the most interesting. There are however a ton more gamers and all their views differ, so some might like them and others may prefer other factions. I don't believe they considered how many would want to change factions. They probably thought the answer was the Faction pledge but from marketing it is worse. If me and a friend want to get involved 2 Faction Pledges don't make sense when the Core Box is so much value in it but the unknown if we can offload the other miniatures, incorporate them, etc makes one or both less likely to jump in and wait until retail.
With Video Games and Software project management it is an even bigger nightmare. We design certain aspects believing this is how the end user should use it. It makes complete sense to us, QA and the test groups. Once something goes public and live there will always be one or a group of people who figure out some method to exploit or do something that the team didn't think people would do. Then we have to go make modifications to either prevent or enhance on what they are trying to do.
Now the ones that have absolutely no clue and literally change every time a backer makes a suggestion, yep those are the worst. I tend to not back or at least get a placeholder. Sometimes it just seems like they fly by the seat of the pants but have really have plans set in place, it just doesn't feel like to someone looking in from the outside.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alpharius wrote: Getting 'everything' for all 4 factions (except vehicles) with a 2 box pledge now would cost me $620.
$100 EB Starter + $120 for the additional starter + (X) for all the boosters and heroes that aren't included + $50 shipping.
Take the Harvesters out completely, and it drops to $470.
How are you getting the $470 or is that not including shipping? Not getting Harvesters I come up with the following options. I did this quickly so I might be missing something or adding something up wrong.
EB Starter (Ares/Riff) w/ shipping: $125
Trooper Pledge w/ shipping: $95
5 (7) Heroes Add-ons: $75
- Ares: Brett "Operator 79"
- Riff: Krull Baal
- Riff: Feral Senn
- Sayx: Tarko Stahlen
- Sayx: Dianne Tianseen
- Sayx: Bianca Carlsson (free part of pledge)
- Sayx: Jason Ramires (free part of pledge)
6 Boosters: $210
- Ares Light Infatry
- Ares Hyperion Armours
- Riff Berserkers
- Riff Hulks
- Sayx Nightstalkers (free part of pledge)
- Sayx Vulcans (free part of pledge)
1 Combat Force Add-on: $0 (free part of pledge)
- Sayx Combat Force
$505, without Harvesters and includes shipping.
EB Starter (Ares/Riff) w/ shipping: $125
Faction Pledge w/ shipping: $210
4 (6) Heroes Add-ons: $60
- Ares: Brett "Operator 79"
- Riff: Krull Baal
- Riff: Feral Senn
- Sayx: Tarko Stahlen
- Sayx: Dianne Tianseen (free part of pledge)
- Sayx: Bianca Carlsson (free part of pledge)
- Sayx: Jason Ramires (free part of pledge)
4 (6) Boosters: $140
- Ares Light Infatry
- Ares Hyperion Armours
- Riff Berserkers
- Riff Hulks
- Sayx Nightstalkers (free part of pledge)
- Sayx Vulcans (free part of pledge)
1 Combat Force Add-on: $0 (free part of pledge)
- Sayx Combat Force
1 Vehicle: (free part of pledge)
$535, this is also completely without any Harvesters. It ends up being cheaper, you basically get a free vehicle and you have room to add another Hero if a new one unlocks for one of those 3 factions.
$540, this completely without any Harvesters and buffing up the Riff army. You could also go Ares/Riff and Ares/Sayx, buffing up the Ares army and take $15 off. Another option is Ares/Riff and Sayx/Harvesters for the same price, but see about selling Harvesters.
). But if the product line is going to be out of my normal hobby budget then there's no point really.
