Now I know there have been many threads and pages of discussions about this since its creation and addition to 40k, but how about a poll to test the waters and get a sample of the general Dakka 40k populace?
So what does everyone think? And let's keep it civil...
(unless it's already been done and I just don't know to search )
Forge World has some fine looking models that I would love to paint. I've been fortunate enough to have friends with larger wallets that have allowed me to paint some of that sweet resin ambrosia, but sadly I have yet to call one my own. All rules aside, I love how they look on the tabletop and if you have good people, and some good drink, I'm sure that will be enough.
Peregrine wrote: "Already been done" might be the understatement of the decade in this case.
Oh, alright then. I just couldn't find an actual poll(s) about it.
I for one love the FW models as your everyday SM player, but I can definitely see other race fans disagreeing with their use because they clearly show more love to marines in a big way. So, to that end, it gives them more options and units to fight with, which could put them over the competitive
edge... or does it simply allow marines to be competitive in the first place?
I have no issue with them. Perhaps its because I have serveral under my command, mostly being FWSH tanks but the other units like the Annihilator Russ which I find fun are also part of my army.
They have quirks the other tanks and troops don't have but are not bad in any way. I had my chimera loaded with a Autocannon (something only found on FW chimeras) and it wrecked orks but otherwise the only "special thing" it had was a different main gun from the standard line up.
I have yet to encounter other FW weapons that were not my own in any large numbers. So far I have only gone head to head with 30k Space marine equipment like the Spartan or other Land Raiders in a single Apoc game last year but my Shadowswords cracked them open.
So I would be fine to see other FW weapons. I plan on building a Bursta Tank for a friend of mine who requested a Ork Super Heavy. He wanted a battle fortress but with the supplised I have I found a D weapon toting uber tank that can still carry orks around like a transport would be a better idea.
Also the cheapest titan outside of knights belongs to the Orks. But your more powerful titans stretch into the 1000 point range on their own and some in the 2000 point range. There are also some forgeworld super-heavy aircraft that approach this price points wise as well.
But as to the original question, forrgeworld is necessary in some cases. If you ban it from the table, quite a few armies would be at a major disadvantage as far as Super-Heavies, Lords of War and unique representation goes.
three years ago I predicted that in 5 years we would all wonder why people were so bent out of shape about including Forge World models/rules in their games.
I think we are getting there a lot quicker than I originally expected.
We have played with FW rules and models for at least the last 6 years and have never looked back.
My Reaver titan is like nearly 2k points or something.
I have yet to use it, but unbound only makes it easier now days.
My arch enemy Eldar player fields his revenant titan often and im fairly sure thats verging on 1k points.
But then there are units like my humble Malcador defender that cost 300 points or so. Then there are FW models that use standard rules (like my leman russ variants and hell hound).
Like GW, FW has heaps of models so its usually better to assume you cant use it until you have asked. 99% of people wont mind unless they have a lack of info on FW units usually.
Don't be a butt about it? Let your opponent know you plan on using some FW things and if they are obviously uncomfortable with it don't. I bring multiple lists with me where ever I go to game.
Expect to not be everyone's best friend when you use em (jealousy, WAAC or just close mindedness about the expansion to the hobby) but creating a hostile play environment with high tensions is never a good way to play.
Most of the time, personally at least, I've found most of the reasons that people don't like FW boils down to one of three things.
First, they think FW is all unbalanced WAAC crap that's there to turbo-power an army to victory, or that ti's all Titans and whatnot. This is blatantly false, most FW units are rather mediocre and relatively few are Superheavies/Gargantuan Creatures. On top of that, it's GW that actually has allowed the inclusion of, and written the current rules for, Titan models (FW just makes the resin at this point) outside of Apocalypse games.
Second is that often they play against something from FW and have a bad experience, and almost overwhelmingly it ends up being "player X showed up, with Y proxy to stand in for Z Forgeworld unit and said it did A, B and C and it just ruined everything." and it ends up that half the stuff was made up or doesn't work the way they played it and the model used was inappropriate and ultimately someone just basically cheated or tried to proxy something based on what they "heard" the rules were without actually having the correct rules.
Third is that you get a very competitive player who's extremely comfortable with a specific metagame and FW throws a kink in that or introduces a hardcounter to a gimmick they've come to rely upon, and the meta that they're comfortable in will possibly change if FW is introduced and other players take advantage of it.
Often it's a mix of two or even all three of these.
There's been a number of other reasons thrown at FW over the years to disallow its inclusion. Cost was one, but with GW models now coming out at the exact same prices (look at the price of Scions vs DKoK Grenadiers or the new Blood Angels Terminator Librarian relative to FW Terminator characters), and codex books now at $50 each, it's hard to argue that anymore. Sometimes you'll see people complain about rules inconsistency, but we have that with GW as well (with books often going many years and several editions without an update or having the same model in multiple books with different rules, like the current Chimera as it stands in the IG book vs the Inquisition book). You'll see some people complain about familiarity, but they won't bat an eye at playing a Codex army they've never played before or something else that isn't available in a shelf (e.g. Sisters of Battle).
Perosnally I love FW and use it in many of my games. FW's not perfect, but they usually get it better than GW, with relatively fewer "overpowered" units and far better fluff, and the overpowered stuff often gets caught in public playtesting or in an updated book within the same edition, unlike GW's core studio stuff.
jreilly89 wrote: Depends. I really like the FW models, but the price is semi absurd. Most of the FW models are fine ruleswise to me, but some of the LoW seem OP
Keep in mind many, if not most, of the rules for Lords of War, even those FW makes, aren't written by FW anymore. GW's core studio are responsible for the points costs and capabilities of I think all the Titan models at this point (FW printed the Chaos titans, but they're basically identical to the loyalist ones GW did). FW, for most of these units, just makes the resin. GW really poorly scales the costing of Superheavies and Lords of War, usually the bigger they are, the more effective they are for their investment, 1250pts of Reaver or Heirodule for example will wreck 1575pts of basic Baneblade or Shadowsword without too much thought for example. When GW released rules for an Imperator Titan as a PDF for the first version of Apocalypse, they costed it at 4000pts but it'd probably be able to successfully engage double or even triple or more that number of points worth of enemy units.
I'm very pro-FW. My only stipulation is that you need the rules on hand when you do it. It's not to be mean about it, it's just that there have been too many stories of WAAC players (or people just playing something wrong) for me to play without making sure I see the rules first.
I don't mind FW itself. But 2 out of 2 people i've played using forgeworld have been rather TFG.
For example, 1 guy fielded a renegade artillery list with some super-heavy plasma-tank and a void-shield generator (stronghold assault, i guess) against my orks. I asked him to explain how his stuff works as i don't own neither stronghold assault, nor don't know the rules for renegades and he told me void-shields are av12 4 hp for units within 12' radius. I asked: "Any units?" And he told: "Yes, any units".
During deployment he placed a large fortress partially in ruins and partially in the woods even though it's against the rules - and deployed all his artillery behind it. I thought - no big deal, it's a friendly game after all.
Than the game went on and i rushed towards the void shields and happened to have a few units underneath it. Than he shot and i claimed av12 from void shields. He told me it ain't working like this. But i've asked him to read the rules for me 'out of the book' as i've come to a conclusion that void shields work on any unit underneath it based on what he had told me. He got pissed off and claimed it's complete nonscence and started bitching about it. In the meanwhile i've googled bout the void shields and found a discussion here on dakka where people also claimed void shields work on any model friend or foe. The guy went hulk and told me that everyone's stupid and that i should have my own books and so on. Got to end the game turn 2.
Another guy Fielded 2 riptides list in a 1250 casual match - i've specifically stated beforehand it's gona be an extremely casual fluffy game. 1 was a forgeworld riptide with experimental rules - the one with 2 blasts which he told were ap3. He backed them up with tetras, a buffmander he joined to a riptide (6-th edition) and got a crysis suit team + a min squad of firewarriors and a min squad of vespids (to go extremely casual, i guess). My list was: Tzeench Apostle with gift, Tzeench footslogging sorc with gift, 2 large units of cultists, 2 squads of 10 possessed with 2 gifts each and a squad of 1000 sons with gift in a rhino.
Apostle rolled crussader, possessed champ rolled shrowded, others rolled useless stuff. Sorc got endurance. So, i've joined up apostle, sorc and possessed with shrowded, buffed them with endurance and launched them on one flank. Second possessed squad rushed the other flank. He bunched up and poured fire. Eventually, he killed off everything but a squad of cultists that were hiding behind blos with a relic. And he started bitching about...basically everything. About how i roll invulnerable and fnp saves. About how daemon possessed are broken (!), about how sorc with force weapons and endurance is broken and so on, and so forth.
So, it's probably anecdotal evidence but i don't want to play against fw guyz anymore
I think I've let FW complaints threads influence my opinion on them to much... Hell, I've faced FW units/armies only twice. The first time before the threads I didn't have really any problems fighting against Krieg.
The second time, last month I fought a variant of the Land Raider that had a Thunderfire cannon thing, and Ceramite plating. I was totally un-easy about going against just that one unit based on the threads I've read in the past.
So, went from being okay with fighting a forgeworld army, to being un-easy fighting a FW Land Raider variant.
Both games I barely lost, which just help to remind me; FW isn't Cheese-agedon, it's just different.
Currently, I do feel a little squeemish about fighting FW, but I'm going to suck it up and fight anyways, because in the end it's all about having fun with cool models. And boy does FW have some cool ass models!
My favorite argument is "If it was official, why don't they sell it at the FLGS" I haven't seen a wave serpent for sale in our FLGS for 5 months, so I think tournaments should ban them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I don't really want to live in a world where my opponent writes my list. You write yours, I'll write mine. We'll both use the legal system. The end.
Peregrine wrote: "Already been done" might be the understatement of the decade in this case.
Oh, alright then. I just couldn't find an actual poll(s) about it.
I for one love the FW models as your everyday SM player, but I can definitely see other race fans disagreeing with their use because they clearly show more love to marines in a big way. So, to that end, it gives them more options and units to fight with, which could put them over the competitive
edge... or does it simply allow marines to be competitive in the first place?
While they don't show Tyranids the love they show Space Marines they've still managed give us some of our best units like the Barbed Hierodule, Malanthrope and Dimachaeron. The Wreckerfex isn't half bad either.
FW is glorious and I pity the first comment in this thread that condemns it. May Peregrine have mercy on your soul.
Pyeatt wrote: My favorite argument is "If it was official, why don't they sell it at the FLGS" I haven't seen a wave serpent for sale in our FLGS for 5 months, so I think tournaments should ban them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I don't really want to live in a world where my opponent writes my list. You write yours, I'll write mine. We'll both use the legal system. The end.
The fact it comes from a GW subsidiary and that said it was legal to use should make it official enough.
Pyeatt wrote: My favorite argument is "If it was official, why don't they sell it at the FLGS" I haven't seen a wave serpent for sale in our FLGS for 5 months, so I think tournaments should ban them.
Based on that logic Sisters aren't an official army either.
Lost at why this is even a question in the current edition. They are nicer looking models and at this point more balanced rules than what GW is putting out. Just have to treat the lists as you would any other codex and change your tactics accordingly. Against HH stuff a general take all comers list will serve far better than something tailored due to the massive list opportunities given to the HH guy, ie. there is not one list you are going to see unless you know what the guy is bringing in advance.
You guys must be lucky then, because my forgeworld experiences have been nothing but bad. 5 people in the area here own forgeworld, and they are not helping its name. None of them run fluffy, side grade units. They are all over the top crap. A 400 point stompa. a land raider immune to melta way better than the old crusader. Sabre platforms that I JUST found out have been updated, of course the grognard running them would never tell you. New more annoying flavors of riptides which already are cheese to begin with.
Now I have looked at forgeworld, and many things have good balance compared to standard stuff. But this isn't what people are buying and playing here. Our store banned forgeworld a few years ago from any official tournaments, and nobody cared except 2 people who people generally dident like playing against anyway, for the previously mentioned reasons.
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Col. Dash wrote: Lost at why this is even a question in the current edition. They are nicer looking models and at this point more balanced rules than what GW is putting out. Just have to treat the lists as you would any other codex and change your tactics accordingly. Against HH stuff a general take all comers list will serve far better than something tailored due to the massive list opportunities given to the HH guy, ie. there is not one list you are going to see unless you know what the guy is bringing in advance.
I disagree. They can be more balanced than some of the 6th ed stuff that came out, but the 7th ed codex have been so bland and underpowered compared to say the tau or elder dex, that forgeworld has power creeped past much of the current codex, so that argument dosent hold water anymore.
I don't like FW. Then again, I've only ever seen people use FW to attempt to break the game in their favor and proceed to whine about its legality when the local GW disallows their use.
lustigjh wrote: I don't like FW. Then again, I've only ever seen people use FW to attempt to break the game in their favor and proceed to whine about its legality when the local GW disallows their use.
Damn..even GW stores ban Forgeworld? I wouldn't have thought that was the case.
In my experience, people who don´t want to play against FW are usually inexperienced, prejudice, or both. Some think Forgeworld units are overpowered by default ( some are, but so are some Codex units. ) I haven´t played a FW model I couldn´t deal with.
Common argument I hear is that superheavies are overpowered. Couldn´t be further from the truth. The only point effective super heavy in the game is an Imperial Knight. There´s a reason you don´t see superheavy tanks dominating the high end tournaments ( the ones they are allowed in to begin with. )
Personally, I have nothing against fielding them. They bring cool variety and nice looking additions to any army. And in the end, rules-wise they are completely legal aslong as you abide the different classifications for game types.
I use a Typhon Heavy Siege Tank and Chaos Hellblade myself.
Orock wrote: You guys must be lucky then, because my forgeworld experiences have been nothing but bad. 5 people in the area here own forgeworld, and they are not helping its name. None of them run fluffy, side grade units. They are all over the top crap. A 400 point stompa. a land raider immune to melta way better than the old crusader. Sabre platforms that I JUST found out have been updated, of course the grognard running them would never tell you. New more annoying flavors of riptides which already are cheese to begin with.
Your problem isn't with FW, it's with TFG's.
Also, any SM Land Raider type vehicle with Armored Ceramite cost roughly as much as two kitted Leman Russ Punishers/Exterminators/Vanquishers/etc.
Now I have looked at forgeworld, and many things have good balance compared to standard stuff. But this isn't what people are buying and playing here. Our store banned forgeworld a few years ago from any official tournaments, and nobody cared except 2 people who people generally dident like playing against anyway, for the previously mentioned reasons.
Again, seems you've got a TFG problem, not an FW problem. I'm guessing these guys aren't exactly running fluffy and friendly lists when FW isn't involved?
I disagree. They can be more balanced than some of the 6th ed stuff that came out, but the 7th ed codex have been so bland and underpowered compared to say the tau or elder dex, that forgeworld has power creeped past much of the current codex, so that argument dosent hold water anymore.
FW hasn't powercreeped passed anything anymore than the 6E stuff has, FW hasn't come out with much stuff in 7E yet, and once you start bringing in formations, dataslates, multiple detachments, allies, etc then FW still isn't anything spectacular. The most abuseable things in the game are still not anything wrought from FW.
cvtuttle wrote: three years ago I predicted that in 5 years we would all wonder why people were so bent out of shape about including Forge World models/rules in their games.
I think we are getting there a lot quicker than I originally expected.
We have played with FW rules and models for at least the last 6 years and have never looked back.
Or maybe people that didn't like FW, but were forced to use it , left the game. The group in my city went from 100+ playing tournaments +double that of new people to around 40 in this christmas tournament and no new people in sight.
No one liked the fact that the anwser to playing IG in 6th was , buy 6-9 saber weapon platforms. Or that FW brings units that are the same, but better then codex ones. The D madness at the end of 6th turned of more people then I can think of. Shops closing didn't drive as many people away as ~800pts quad D templates.
7th didn't change it. chaos suddenly got BB wyverns. The anwser to eldar is runing 3 FW predators. It is stupid considering how hard it is to track the rules and how easy it is for people buy recasts, making all people who bought normal armies feel like fools.
The most abuseable things in the game are still not anything wrought from
So we should be thankful that FW doesn't make as much eldar or necron stuff as it does marines?
I personally hater very very bad conversions of FW models, especially the really good ones(Like Sabres that are just ADL cannons on a large base)
Other then that, have at it.
I will admit feeling a certain amount of smugness in 5th edition when I put down my Hydras and LR Extermaintors against the guy who endlessly gave me gak for wanting to use them in 4th edition because they didn't have "official" rules. Of course, he still took issue that I wanted to use Salamander command tanks.
Or maybe people that didn't like FW, but were forced to use it , left the game. The group in my city went from 100+ playing tournaments +double that of new people to around 40 in this christmas tournament and no new people in sight.
And is that the fault of FW or of GW for making an absurd ruleset?
No one liked the fact that the anwser to playing IG in 6th was , buy 6-9 saber weapon platforms.
Which lasted for a little over a year. One of the shortest lifespans of any "cheese" build in the history of 40k.
Or that FW brings units that are the same, but better then codex ones.
Such as?
The D madness at the end of 6th turned of more people then I can think of. Shops closing didn't drive as many people away as ~800pts quad D templates.
And guess who wrote the rules for D weapons, wrote the rules for the titans, and wrote the rules for allowing the titans in normal games? GW, not FW. FW just casts the resin at this point.
7th didn't change it. chaos suddenly got BB wyverns.
That's an issue with GW making silly rules for the Wyvern, not FW for making a fluffy chaos IG list that can ally with Chaos Space Marines (who are hardly overpowered in the first place).
The anwser to eldar is runing 3 FW predators. It is stupid considering how hard it is to track the rules and how easy it is for people buy recasts, making all people who bought normal armies feel like fools.
So...since when are recasts unique to FW, and what FW predator is going to hardcounter Eldar more than normal Predators?
Vaktathi wrote:]The most abuseable things in the game are still not anything wrought from FW
So we should be thankful that FW doesn't make as much eldar or necron stuff as it does marines?
Which has nothing to do with the point I was making there. Furthermore, why is that an issue for FW but not for GW's primary studio that currently has 11 different Space Marine books of various types out?
FW has released a good deal of Necron stuff, a new Necron army list complete with warlord table and unique characters, likewise FW has also come out with lots of great Eldar stuff and an Eldar corairs list, more new stuff than they've gotten from GW in quite some time.
As long as you have a copy of the rules, and either actual models or suitable conversions, most of my group has no problem with it.
One of the guys who games at my LFGS has a Wraithseer and had the old rules for it. I was ncie enough to give him up-to-date rules so people would be willing to play against it.
Forgeworld stuff is just little army toys..on a table with other little army toys..all with made up rules to justify grown ups (and some not so grown ups) playing with them and socializing with a purpose.
The anwser to eldar is runing 3 FW predators. It is stupid considering how hard it is to track the rules and how easy it is for people buy recasts, making all people who bought normal armies feel like fools.
So...since when are recasts unique to FW, and what FW predator is going to hardcounter Eldar more than normal Predators?
I think he's talking about the Sicarian. It's got a similar statline but it fires six autocannon shots that ignore Jink.
Screwed, but you think a GW store cares? It's just an opportunity for you to buy a plastic Baneblade kit from them. And really, this isn't surprising at all. It's the inevitable result of GW's obsession with individual store performance, where spending $X from home and picking it up at the local GW store doesn't count as a sale for that store and the store's facebook page is full of posts from the employee begging you to come into the store to use their computer to make your online purchases. The fact that you're still spending $X on GW products doesn't matter, the employee needs to meet their personal sales quota and anything that threatens their quota needs to be banned.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vaktathi wrote: And guess who wrote the rules for D weapons, wrote the rules for the titans, and wrote the rules for allowing the titans in normal games? GW, not FW. FW just casts the resin at this point.
Yeah, this needs to be emphasized: all of the current Apocalypse/LoW rules were written by "main" GW. The original FW rules for those units were much weaker, and you'd have virtually no chance of winning if you used them in the current game. No 7"/10" blasts, no D-weapons, superheavies had to move and pivot like flyers, etc. For example, the Warhound's double turbolaser (STR D, 5" blast in the current rules) was STR 9 AP 2 with only a 3" blast and a Warhound with two of them would cost almost 150 points more than the current one. The Baneblade had only a 5" blast for its main gun (same stats otherwise) and cost about 200 points more.
Yeah, this needs to be emphasized: all of the current Apocalypse/LoW rules were written by "main" GW. The original FW rules for those units were much weaker, and you'd have virtually no chance of winning if you used them in the current game. No 7"/10" blasts, no D-weapons, superheavies had to move and pivot like flyers, etc. For example, the Warhound's double turbolaser (STR D, 5" blast in the current rules) was STR 9 AP 2 with only a 3" blast and a Warhound with two of them would cost almost 150 points more than the current one. The Baneblade had only a 5" blast for its main gun (same stats otherwise) and cost about 200 points more.
Also, not forgetting, that FW toned down Str D weapons in their Horus Heresy books to make them more sane
Recently ran into a FW Land Raider with Flamestorm Cannons. Wasn't extremely terrible, though the Ceramite plating rule was fairly annoying. Overall, it was a great battle, I avoided his Land Raider rather than fight it outright.
I think the point value for FW is broken and that is it. Really What makes me laugh is taking a FW stompa compared to a GW stompa. You can literally field two stompas with the FW and give them void shields. While if you do the GW stompa you can only have one with no void shields.
zombiekila707 wrote: I think the point value for FW is broken and that is it. Really What makes me laugh is taking a FW stompa compared to a GW stompa. You can literally field two stompas with the FW and give them void shields. While if you do the GW stompa you can only have one with no void shields.
That is my beef and its whats for dinner.
That's a *very* unique outlier which they've stated was intended to be "+700" instead of "+300" in emails and on on their FB page back when they still had one. They haven't updated the PDF for whatever reason, but GW as a whole seems to have a standing policy against fixing things like that
My problem with fw is ever time i played them rules the had seemed wrong just some printed page the found on line if people got the really rules and not some sheet they typed up to look legal i be fine with fw..
zombiekila707 wrote: I think the point value for FW is broken and that is it. Really What makes me laugh is taking a FW stompa compared to a GW stompa. You can literally field two stompas with the FW and give them void shields. While if you do the GW stompa you can only have one with no void shields.
That is my beef and its whats for dinner.
I assume you mean the Klaw Stompa, and those are cheap because they really don't have anything except a really big scorcha or two and two close-combat D weapons. One on its own isn't as versatile as the GW standard Stompa.
Also the only reason the Klaw Stompa gets a power-field is because the only way to actually have a Klaw Stompa is to build it using the Kustom Stompa rules, which includes the option for power fields. GW won't update the Klaw Stompa's original profile so the FW variant is the one you have to go with if you want your close-combat ork stompa.
Okay so to clarify things I do not play pickup games.
As for my friends circle:
Given the open ended mess that 7th edition is, when wanting to play a battle we usually clarify things the following way:
1 FoC for main army (no need to tell what army youre bringing)
upto 1 allied detachment (no need to tell which allies youre bringing)
FW units only after telling the opponent what you'll be bringing and if he is ok with it
Formations: the amount of formations you will be bringing should be disclosed prior to the battle
I like bringing contemptor mortis dreads as anti-air for my DA, I really would rather not bring in flyers for anti-air and I just dont like putting in the aegis defense line. At about the same points as a land raider each not many people seem to have a problem with them.
zombiekila707 wrote: I think the point value for FW is broken and that is it. Really What makes me laugh is taking a FW stompa compared to a GW stompa. You can literally field two stompas with the FW and give them void shields. While if you do the GW stompa you can only have one with no void shields.
That is my beef and its whats for dinner.
I assume you mean the Klaw Stompa, and those are cheap because they really don't have anything except a really big scorcha or two and two close-combat D weapons. One on its own isn't as versatile as the GW standard Stompa.
Also the only reason the Klaw Stompa gets a power-field is because the only way to actually have a Klaw Stompa is to build it using the Kustom Stompa rules, which includes the option for power fields. GW won't update the Klaw Stompa's original profile so the FW variant is the one you have to go with if you want your close-combat ork stompa.
No man talking about just a normal FW stompa looking at it right now it has same HP, attacks, AV, EVERYTHING! You can get better weapons and other things with the FW stompa as well.
zombiekila707 wrote: I think the point value for FW is broken and that is it. Really What makes me laugh is taking a FW stompa compared to a GW stompa. You can literally field two stompas with the FW and give them void shields. While if you do the GW stompa you can only have one with no void shields.
That is my beef and its whats for dinner.
I assume you mean the Klaw Stompa, and those are cheap because they really don't have anything except a really big scorcha or two and two close-combat D weapons. One on its own isn't as versatile as the GW standard Stompa.
Also the only reason the Klaw Stompa gets a power-field is because the only way to actually have a Klaw Stompa is to build it using the Kustom Stompa rules, which includes the option for power fields. GW won't update the Klaw Stompa's original profile so the FW variant is the one you have to go with if you want your close-combat ork stompa.
No man talking about just a normal FW stompa looking at it right now it has same HP, attacks, AV, EVERYTHING! You can get better weapons and other things with the FW stompa as well.
The only Stompa forgeworld makes is the Bigmek Stompa. However Imperial Armor 8 has rules for building your own stompa which has a lot of weapons options.
hellpato wrote: Those who doesn't like FW are those guys who bring a knife in a gun fight.
Yep that described me! For 6 years I played without the aid of Forge World models. They have some powerful stuff and the analogy should be, "Those who doesn't like FW are those guys who bring a tooth pick in a battle tank fight." I used my GW only army and fought these other armies with 1 or 2 forge world units and they just wreck my army in 1 turn and I proceed to lose. The only way to fight this cheese is to spend more money to buy FW books and buy FW models. How are you going to argue that FW are on the same level as GW units? If you own a FW model its because a.) it looked better or b.) you wanted something that wins!
They write these rules for Forge World so much better because they want you buy these obscenely exorbitant plastic models over expensive GW models.
zilka86 wrote: My problem with fw is ever time i played them rules the had seemed wrong just some printed page the found on line if people got the really rules and not some sheet they typed up to look legal i be fine with fw..
The problem is that sometimes the most current rules are in FWFAQs or edition updates that don't come in big $100 bound hardcovers and don't have much in the way of fancy formatting. Could I ask what seemed wrong with the rules your opponent had?
The Imperial Answer wrote: I assume you mean the Klaw Stompa, and those are cheap because they really don't have anything except a really big scorcha or two and two close-combat D weapons. One on its own isn't as versatile as the GW standard Stompa.
No, it was a special character that was updated in one of the 6th edition pdfs to be able to take his personal Stompa as a "dedicated transport". There was a typo in the rules that made the cost way too cheap, but playing it by RAW is like playing by the RAW in 6th edition that models wearing helmets can't shoot (they have no eyes to draw LOS from).
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Filch wrote: The only way to fight this cheese is to spend more money to buy FW books and buy FW models.
This is just laughably wrong. FW units have their balance issues, but codex units are just as bad and very few FW rules can even compete with the cheesiest codex armies.
The Imperial Answer wrote: I assume you mean the Klaw Stompa, and those are cheap because they really don't have anything except a really big scorcha or two and two close-combat D weapons. One on its own isn't as versatile as the GW standard Stompa.
No, it was a special character that was updated in one of the 6th edition pdfs to be able to take his personal Stompa as a "dedicated transport". There was a typo in the rules that made the cost way too cheap, but playing it by RAW is like playing by the RAW in 6th edition that models wearing helmets can't shoot (they have no eyes to draw LOS from)..
You mean Buzzgob then. I thought the low points cost was because he could only be taken with the stompa in apoc games back then.
hellpato wrote: Those who doesn't like FW are those guys who bring a knife in a gun fight.
Yep that described me! For 6 years I played without the aid of Forge World models. They have some powerful stuff and the analogy should be, "Those who doesn't like FW are those guys who bring a tooth pick in a battle tank fight." I used my GW only army and fought these other armies with 1 or 2 forge world units and they just wreck my army in 1 turn and I proceed to lose.
Care to provide an example?
The only way to fight this cheese is to spend more money to buy FW books and buy FW models. How are you going to argue that FW are on the same level as GW units?
Because most are?
If you own a FW model its because a.) it looked better or b.) you wanted something that wins!
And your reasoning for this is...?
They write these rules for Forge World so much better because they want you buy these obscenely exorbitant plastic models over expensive GW models.
Except...usually they're pretty mediocre, and GW's models are commonly coming out at the exact same price as many FW models now...
Its all about $$$!
I'm not entirely sure you really have much of an idea of what you're talking about here...
The Imperial Answer wrote: You mean Buzzgob then. I thought the low points cost was because he could only be taken with the stompa in apoc games back then.
In the 6th edition update to IA8 it can be taken in normal games. IIRC the problem was that originally he got the custom Stompa rules that started really cheap but didn't include any weapons or upgrades, so once you finished building your Stompa you were paying full price for it. Then in the 6th edition update some unit names got changed around but point costs didn't change to match, and suddenly he gets a fully-equipped stompa for the price of an unarmed one.
FW adds more rules and more units, which are mostly imperial.
many of the units are ok, some are outright bad, and some are obviously much better than codex equivalents.
The main issues for me for FW are this:
1.) If your not imperial they add little to the game.
--- after imperial orks, tau, nids, eldar, necrons see the most from FW, with all of those factions combined having about 1/2 to 1/3rd of the amount of entries that imperial have, not even counting 30k stuff.
2.) Most people that want FW inclusive things don't want it for the mediocre or bad things, they want it for the things that are better than codex equivalents like the special riptides, hornets, special dreadnauts, stompa that costs 400pts less for no reason, big trakks, the gun battery things imperial players seem to love, etc. Its pretty much a list of about 1-4 things per faction that you will see over and over when FW is allowed, so it adds very little to the game for all the supposed variety it can give. **of course the FW specific army lists are different and have a lot of variety beyond the standard codexes**
3.) FW is worse than GW for rules. no faqs, little updates, and they are more of a model company than GW. ie they do not put out rules unless there is a model, whereas GW may put out rules for things that has no model which allows more variety because they can create rules for models they haven't/don't intend to make anytime soon to give options to players. FW has never done this, and probably never will. Their priority is making imperial walkers>imperial tanks>imperial dreadnaughts>imperial infantry>other races. If you play imperial theres so many units to pick from in FW that some are obviously going to be better than anything you can get in the codexes, for other races the pond is much smaller, and sometimes dry (here's looking at you dark eldar)
hellpato wrote: Those who doesn't like FW are those guys who bring a knife in a gun fight.
Or you know, don't have the kinds of money needed to field such models.
That being said, I don't really care much about the Forge World stuff. Some of it looks really nice, but it's so grossly overcosted to make me care. If people want to field their more expensive toys, sure. *shrug*
zombiekila707 wrote: I think the point value for FW is broken and that is it. Really What makes me laugh is taking a FW stompa compared to a GW stompa. You can literally field two stompas with the FW and give them void shields. While if you do the GW stompa you can only have one with no void shields.
That is my beef and its whats for dinner.
I assume you mean the Klaw Stompa, and those are cheap because they really don't have anything except a really big scorcha or two and two close-combat D weapons. One on its own isn't as versatile as the GW standard Stompa.
Also the only reason the Klaw Stompa gets a power-field is because the only way to actually have a Klaw Stompa is to build it using the Kustom Stompa rules, which includes the option for power fields. GW won't update the Klaw Stompa's original profile so the FW variant is the one you have to go with if you want your close-combat ork stompa.
No man talking about just a normal FW stompa looking at it right now it has same HP, attacks, AV, EVERYTHING! You can get better weapons and other things with the FW stompa as well.
See this sort of stomp foot, bury head mentally is half of what holds back Forgeworld. The other half is the combination of TFGs who use outdated rules and opponents who don't make people have rules in hand for them. Of course we just saw the whole issue at a GT where somehow no competitive players for a day knew that Loth couldn't be a WSHQ. Just come on people.
FW units are better balanced than Waveserpents or half our formations. Even the discount stompa being whined about is no worse than a "core rules" IK in an AL formation.
I'm just happy to see that FW is generally accepted. As one person said above, ultimately, it's toys vs toys. Absolutely nothing to get bent out of shape over in 40k tabletop, to include where the models come from.
blaktoof wrote: FW adds more rules and more units, which are mostly imperial.
many of the units are ok, some are outright bad, and some are obviously much better than codex equivalents.
The main issues for me for FW are this:
1.) If your not imperial they add little to the game.
--- after imperial orks, tau, nids, eldar, necrons see the most from FW, with all of those factions combined having about 1/2 to 1/3rd of the amount of entries that imperial have, not even counting 30k stuff.
Why is this an issue for FW but not for GW? GW has published *eleven* different Space Marine specific books over the past two years. Half the armies and most supplements are Space Marines. FW offers a lot for other armies, and whole new army lists for Necrons, Orks, and Eldar.
3.) FW is worse than GW for rules. no faqs, little updates, and they are more of a model company than GW. ie they do not put out rules unless there is a model, whereas GW may put out rules for things that has no model which allows more variety because they can create rules for models they haven't/don't intend to make anytime soon to give options to players. FW has never done this, and probably never will. Their priority is making imperial walkers>imperial tanks>imperial dreadnaughts>imperial infantry>other races. If you play imperial theres so many units to pick from in FW that some are obviously going to be better than anything you can get in the codexes, for other races the pond is much smaller, and sometimes dry (here's looking at you dark eldar)
They've been updating a lot of their rules, and they often do public playtest rules and change them based on feedback. Their updates are about as frequent as GW's, everything gets an update about once every other edition, some more, some less.
Also, GW no longer puts out rules for something that doesn't have a model. Haven't for a couple of years now. They axes a *HUGE* number of units from several books (most notably IG and Dark Eldar) specifically because they didn't have plastic line models. Hell, they dropped the Tyranid's drop pod from the codex because it didn't have a model, only to come out with new rules and a new name once they did.
hellpato wrote: Those who doesn't like FW are those guys who bring a knife in a gun fight.
Or you know, don't have the kinds of money needed to field such models.
That being said, I don't really care much about the Forge World stuff. Some of it looks really nice, but it's so grossly overcosted to make me care. If people want to field their more expensive toys, sure. *shrug*
Except, increasingly it isn't any more expensive. Sure the big impressive things like Titans are expensive, but GW's new plastic Terminator Librarian isn't any cheaper than most of FW's Terminator armored characters. LIkewise, the new plastic Scions are the same price per model as FW's Death Korps Grenadiers (which are functionally the same unit).
zombiekila707 wrote: I think the point value for FW is broken and that is it. Really What makes me laugh is taking a FW stompa compared to a GW stompa. You can literally field two stompas with the FW and give them void shields. While if you do the GW stompa you can only have one with no void shields.
That is my beef and its whats for dinner.
I assume you mean the Klaw Stompa, and those are cheap because they really don't have anything except a really big scorcha or two and two close-combat D weapons. One on its own isn't as versatile as the GW standard Stompa.
Also the only reason the Klaw Stompa gets a power-field is because the only way to actually have a Klaw Stompa is to build it using the Kustom Stompa rules, which includes the option for power fields. GW won't update the Klaw Stompa's original profile so the FW variant is the one you have to go with if you want your close-combat ork stompa.
No man talking about just a normal FW stompa looking at it right now it has same HP, attacks, AV, EVERYTHING! You can get better weapons and other things with the FW stompa as well.
See this sort of stomp foot, bury head mentally is half of what holds back Forgeworld. The other half is the combination of TFGs who use outdated rules and opponents who don't make people have rules in hand for them. Of course we just saw the whole issue at a GT where somehow no competitive players for a day knew that Loth couldn't be a WSHQ. Just come on people.
FW units are better balanced than Waveserpents or half our formations. Even the discount stompa being whined about is no worse than a "core rules" IK in an AL formation.
Most of what holds FW back is their prices. GW is already pricey, and FW adds to that cost. How much does a Primarch run?
blaktoof wrote: FW adds more rules and more units, which are mostly imperial.
many of the units are ok, some are outright bad, and some are obviously much better than codex equivalents.
The main issues for me for FW are this:
1.) If your not imperial they add little to the game.
--- after imperial orks, tau, nids, eldar, necrons see the most from FW, with all of those factions combined having about 1/2 to 1/3rd of the amount of entries that imperial have, not even counting 30k stuff.
Why is this an issue for FW but not for GW? GW has published *eleven* different Space Marine specific books over the past two years. Half the armies and most supplements are Space Marines. FW offers a lot for other armies, and whole new army lists for Necrons, Orks, and Eldar.
3.) FW is worse than GW for rules. no faqs, little updates, and they are more of a model company than GW. ie they do not put out rules unless there is a model, whereas GW may put out rules for things that has no model which allows more variety because they can create rules for models they haven't/don't intend to make anytime soon to give options to players. FW has never done this, and probably never will. Their priority is making imperial walkers>imperial tanks>imperial dreadnaughts>imperial infantry>other races. If you play imperial theres so many units to pick from in FW that some are obviously going to be better than anything you can get in the codexes, for other races the pond is much smaller, and sometimes dry (here's looking at you dark eldar)
They've been updating a lot of their rules, and they often do public playtest rules and change them based on feedback. Their updates are about as frequent as GW's, everything gets an update about once every other edition, some more, some less.
Also, GW no longer puts out rules for something that doesn't have a model. Haven't for a couple of years now. They axes a *HUGE* number of units from several books (most notably IG and Dark Eldar) specifically because they didn't have plastic line models. Hell, they dropped the Tyranid's drop pod from the codex because it didn't have a model, only to come out with new rules and a new name once they did.
hellpato wrote: Those who doesn't like FW are those guys who bring a knife in a gun fight.
Or you know, don't have the kinds of money needed to field such models.
That being said, I don't really care much about the Forge World stuff. Some of it looks really nice, but it's so grossly overcosted to make me care. If people want to field their more expensive toys, sure. *shrug*
Except, increasingly it isn't any more expensive. Sure the big impressive things like Titans are expensive, but GW's new plastic Terminator Librarian isn't any cheaper than most of FW's Terminator armored characters. LIkewise, the new plastic Scions are the same price per model as FW's Death Korps Grenadiers (which are functionally the same unit).
In most cases, the items are more expensive. even if it isn't by a large amount. And as an Ork player, the models are grossly costed. A biker boss is so easy to convert, but you want an actual model? 80 bucks. How about nooooooo. I'll suffer with a 'crappy' AOBR boss cut at the waist and glued onto a normal bike. Problem solved for quantify-ably less money.
I get that FW tries to make stuff that might not have a model or a very good model by GW, but the prices are silly on most of their items. A large Squiggoth (Don't get me started on the Gargantuan one) and their Stompa/Mega Dread for Orks are stupidly priced. But if people want to buy them, more power to them.
Commando CONVERSION kit is almost 30 fricken dollars! A CONVERSION KIT! I'd rather just buy the damn Kommando models from GW.
zombiekila707 wrote: I think the point value for FW is broken and that is it. Really What makes me laugh is taking a FW stompa compared to a GW stompa. You can literally field two stompas with the FW and give them void shields. While if you do the GW stompa you can only have one with no void shields.
That is my beef and its whats for dinner.
I assume you mean the Klaw Stompa, and those are cheap because they really don't have anything except a really big scorcha or two and two close-combat D weapons. One on its own isn't as versatile as the GW standard Stompa.
Also the only reason the Klaw Stompa gets a power-field is because the only way to actually have a Klaw Stompa is to build it using the Kustom Stompa rules, which includes the option for power fields. GW won't update the Klaw Stompa's original profile so the FW variant is the one you have to go with if you want your close-combat ork stompa.
No man talking about just a normal FW stompa looking at it right now it has same HP, attacks, AV, EVERYTHING! You can get better weapons and other things with the FW stompa as well.
See this sort of stomp foot, bury head mentally is half of what holds back Forgeworld. The other half is the combination of TFGs who use outdated rules and opponents who don't make people have rules in hand for them. Of course we just saw the whole issue at a GT where somehow no competitive players for a day knew that Loth couldn't be a WSHQ. Just come on people.
FW units are better balanced than Waveserpents or half our formations. Even the discount stompa being whined about is no worse than a "core rules" IK in an AL formation.
Most of what holds FW back is their prices. GW is already pricey, and FW adds to that cost. How much does a Primarch run?
All of them are mostly 57 quid, except for logar who is 52 quid, and Horus is who is 62 quid.
zombiekila707 wrote: I think the point value for FW is broken and that is it. Really What makes me laugh is taking a FW stompa compared to a GW stompa. You can literally field two stompas with the FW and give them void shields. While if you do the GW stompa you can only have one with no void shields.
That is my beef and its whats for dinner.
I assume you mean the Klaw Stompa, and those are cheap because they really don't have anything except a really big scorcha or two and two close-combat D weapons. One on its own isn't as versatile as the GW standard Stompa.
Also the only reason the Klaw Stompa gets a power-field is because the only way to actually have a Klaw Stompa is to build it using the Kustom Stompa rules, which includes the option for power fields. GW won't update the Klaw Stompa's original profile so the FW variant is the one you have to go with if you want your close-combat ork stompa.
No man talking about just a normal FW stompa looking at it right now it has same HP, attacks, AV, EVERYTHING! You can get better weapons and other things with the FW stompa as well.
See this sort of stomp foot, bury head mentally is half of what holds back Forgeworld. The other half is the combination of TFGs who use outdated rules and opponents who don't make people have rules in hand for them. Of course we just saw the whole issue at a GT where somehow no competitive players for a day knew that Loth couldn't be a WSHQ. Just come on people.
FW units are better balanced than Waveserpents or half our formations. Even the discount stompa being whined about is no worse than a "core rules" IK in an AL formation.
Most of what holds FW back is their prices. GW is already pricey, and FW adds to that cost. How much does a Primarch run?
All of them are mostly 57 quid, except for logar who is 52 quid, and Horus is who is 62 quid.
For a single model, albeit of good quality, that's about $60. A Primarch is one of the few models I would buy just because of their details, but its still expensive. A FW Land Raider is about $25 more than one from GW.
Because some things in ForgeWorld are broken, we shouldn't be able to take them. Lets follow that logic.
Goodbye Eldar. (Wave Serpents, entire Bound armies of T5+ models)
Goodbye Grey Knights.(Cheaper Dreadknights)
Goodbye Imperial Guard (Cheaper Russes, LRHQ's)
Goodbye Tyranids (So many Monsters)
Goodbye Tau (Riptide Spam, Broadsides)
Goodbye Orks (So so much awesome)
Goodbye Necrons (Do I even have to say?)
So in your hypothetical leagues, the only army allowed is Sisters of Battle. Good. Let's all buy in and maybe they'll make some plastics!
I have no issue with them, I'd say I'm somewhere between Good and Indifferent.
It's more the LoW stuff that bothers me in 40k these days than anything else.
As for FW itself, the only ones I'm wary of are units still under 'Experimental' rules, I wouldn't refuse to play against them etc, I'd just like to be clear on what they are before we start.
I met with one of the R'Varna (probably wrong spelling) Riptides while playing against a friends Tau, I spent the early stages of the game thinking it was a normal riptide until it came into range, then he revealed what it was and presented the experimental rules (at that time.). I wasn't annoyed with it being experimental per say but I was quite miffed he hadn't even explained that it wasn't a standard riptide (even though the model was a standard riptide.).
koooaei wrote: I don't mind FW itself. But 2 out of 2 people i've played using forgeworld have been rather TFG.
For example, 1 guy fielded a renegade artillery list with some super-heavy plasma-tank and a void-shield generator (stronghold assault, i guess) against my orks. I asked him to explain how his stuff works as i don't own neither stronghold assault, nor don't know the rules for renegades and he told me void-shields are av12 4 hp for units within 12' radius. I asked: "Any units?" And he told: "Yes, any units".
During deployment he placed a large fortress partially in ruins and partially in the woods even though it's against the rules - and deployed all his artillery behind it. I thought - no big deal, it's a friendly game after all.
Than the game went on and i rushed towards the void shields and happened to have a few units underneath it. Than he shot and i claimed av12 from void shields. He told me it ain't working like this. But i've asked him to read the rules for me 'out of the book' as i've come to a conclusion that void shields work on any unit underneath it based on what he had told me. He got pissed off and claimed it's complete nonscence and started bitching about it. In the meanwhile i've googled bout the void shields and found a discussion here on dakka where people also claimed void shields work on any model friend or foe. The guy went hulk and told me that everyone's stupid and that i should have my own books and so on. Got to end the game turn 2.
Another guy Fielded 2 riptides list in a 1250 casual match - i've specifically stated beforehand it's gona be an extremely casual fluffy game. 1 was a forgeworld riptide with experimental rules - the one with 2 blasts which he told were ap3. He backed them up with tetras, a buffmander he joined to a riptide (6-th edition) and got a crysis suit team + a min squad of firewarriors and a min squad of vespids (to go extremely casual, i guess). My list was: Tzeench Apostle with gift, Tzeench footslogging sorc with gift, 2 large units of cultists, 2 squads of 10 possessed with 2 gifts each and a squad of 1000 sons with gift in a rhino.
Apostle rolled crussader, possessed champ rolled shrowded, others rolled useless stuff. Sorc got endurance. So, i've joined up apostle, sorc and possessed with shrowded, buffed them with endurance and launched them on one flank. Second possessed squad rushed the other flank. He bunched up and poured fire. Eventually, he killed off everything but a squad of cultists that were hiding behind blos with a relic. And he started bitching about...basically everything. About how i roll invulnerable and fnp saves. About how daemon possessed are broken (!), about how sorc with force weapons and endurance is broken and so on, and so forth.
So, it's probably anecdotal evidence but i don't want to play against fw guyz anymore
Well that first bit I can certainly say that guy is definitely TFG.
But as far as the Tau part goes, the R'Varna was Actually AP3 at first but was made AP4 after being a complete rape train that lacked breaks.
Every novel(The Patient hunter details 3+ hunting lemon russes from the perspective of one, one of the stories in the Damocles Anthology features 2 or more ambushing White Scars)or background piece(R'Varnas FW description states 3 held off a hive fleet on their own) that involves the Riptide details how they travel in groups of two or more, or a cohort of crisis suits like the Apoc fortmation. So... Unfortunately for people who have a hard time with Riptides, R'Varnas, Y'vahras.
That's right, TripTide is fluffy.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That said, I actively encourage FW in my area. I love the models and it just adds to the fun. Just don't be a jerk about your list and I'm happy, but that could be without forgeworld too!
For a unit whose codex profile mentions production of it is slow due to scarcity of resources, the riptide and variants sure seem to show up a lot in the lore.
For a unit whose codex profile mentions production of it is slow due to scarcity of resources, the riptide and variants sure seem to show up a lot in the lore.
So do space marines. Whole chapters of them even though there's supposedly less of them than there are planets in the Imperium.
If you have a few elite units you don't spread them thin to the point each is a drop in the ocean. You concentrate them where they can make an impact. And it's these times and places most of the lore is about.
I own some FW stuff and IA13 for my CSM+IG. So Im ok with FW being used, it already was used way before I got some FW stuff. But my local GW is against its use and so are some/slight majority of players.
The amount of LoW's in the form of Knights used that are acceptable just boggles my mind if almost all FW is not.
I prefer not to pay 2-3x more for the same units and ship from the UK. Though I most certainly will be buying a forge world Avatar just because it's BA. However it's going to use the standard rules for an Avatar. I'm totally okay with people using FW in an Apocalypse game - or including 1 model as a super heavy or something in a friendly. When you start running predator variants and land raider variants that are obviously better than the ones I'm using from a legit codex it gets pretty annoying. I guess I should have answered indifferent because I'm not against their use in friendly games. I really think they should be excluded from all competitive environments.
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Sir Arun wrote: Okay so to clarify things I do not play pickup games.
As for my friends circle:
Given the open ended mess that 7th edition is, when wanting to play a battle we usually clarify things the following way:
1 FoC for main army (no need to tell what army youre bringing)
upto 1 allied detachment (no need to tell which allies youre bringing)
FW units only after telling the opponent what you'll be bringing and if he is ok with it
Formations: the amount of formations you will be bringing should be disclosed prior to the battle
These are pretty standard rules to go by and they work. They give people who make TAC list a chance to build appropriately and it makes the game more fun for everyone. Ahead of time if someone wants to use a titan or something OP I'll just mention that I have a war-hound titan and usually they say nah....lets just play a standard game.
I own a decent chunk of FW stuff, as the editions have moved forward and new books come out, a lot has balanced itself out. Some units are just not what they used to be, while others shine a bit more. None of them are auto take anymore though.
I runv an IA13 Renegades list, mostly with veterans and largely end up paying more points for a worse unit than my AM counterparts. The list is still considered to be OP due to some cheaper units (Heavy flamer sentinel), and I often have players refusing my list because "Its forgeworld, its broken". In such circumstances I switch to the same models in an AM list and typically find that my vets got cheapers, better shots, better LD and access to 3 specials rather than two. And yet that list is considered "Less OP" because it isn't forge world.
So to me that FW hate is largely an irrational fear of the unknown, and a few cheap units are used to build a huge arguement against what is often underpowered or just fluffy lists.
Melcavuk wrote: I runv an IA13 Renegades list, mostly with veterans and largely end up paying more points for a worse unit than my AM counterparts. The list is still considered to be OP due to some cheaper units (Heavy flamer sentinel), and I often have players refusing my list because "Its forgeworld, its broken". In such circumstances I switch to the same models in an AM list and typically find that my vets got cheapers, better shots, better LD and access to 3 specials rather than two. And yet that list is considered "Less OP" because it isn't forge world.
So to me that FW hate is largely an irrational fear of the unknown, and a few cheap units are used to build a huge arguement against what is often underpowered or just fluffy lists.
Well.
One thing is that some people do categorize all of FW as OP broken and that is of course not correct.
Another thing is that FW point costs are sometimes way off, in one direction or another.
Sicaran Battle Tank: who doesn't want one. Or ten really.
Eldar Hornet: same. The previous edition of the Eldar Hornet rules was ridiculously overcosted, it's now a bit undercosted, they'll get it right next time, in about five years I guess.
Some FW players do categorize all of FW as not OP broken and that is of course not correct.
Melcavuk wrote: I runv an IA13 Renegades list, mostly with veterans and largely end up paying more points for a worse unit than my AM counterparts. The list is still considered to be OP due to some cheaper units (Heavy flamer sentinel), and I often have players refusing my list because "Its forgeworld, its broken". In such circumstances I switch to the same models in an AM list and typically find that my vets got cheapers, better shots, better LD and access to 3 specials rather than two. And yet that list is considered "Less OP" because it isn't forge world.
So to me that FW hate is largely an irrational fear of the unknown, and a few cheap units are used to build a huge arguement against what is often underpowered or just fluffy lists.
Well.
One thing is that some people do categorize all of FW as OP broken and that is of course not correct.
Another thing is that FW point costs are sometimes way off, in one direction or another.
Sicaran Battle Tank: who doesn't want one. Or ten really.
Eldar Hornet: same. The previous edition of the Eldar Hornet rules was ridiculously overcosted, it's now a bit undercosted, they'll get it right next time, in about five years I guess.
Some FW players do categorize all of FW as not OP broken and that is of course not correct.
Absoutely true, but no more true for FW than it is for units in 40K codex's, in the much cited example of waveserpents, riptides, wraithknights etc.
Melcavuk wrote: Absoutely true, but no more true for FW than it is for units in 40K codex's, in the much cited example of waveserpents, riptides, wraithknights etc.
I had that too at the start.
Until people actually read the FW units for Necrons, which are funny but 'meh'.
The only thing they found really strong was the Sentry Pylon, until they heard how much points I had to pay for those.
Melcavuk wrote: I runv an IA13 Renegades list, mostly with veterans and largely end up paying more points for a worse unit than my AM counterparts. The list is still considered to be OP due to some cheaper units (Heavy flamer sentinel), and I often have players refusing my list because "Its forgeworld, its broken". In such circumstances I switch to the same models in an AM list and typically find that my vets got cheapers, better shots, better LD and access to 3 specials rather than two. And yet that list is considered "Less OP" because it isn't forge world.
So to me that FW hate is largely an irrational fear of the unknown, and a few cheap units are used to build a huge arguement against what is often underpowered or just fluffy lists.
Well.
One thing is that some people do categorize all of FW as OP broken and that is of course not correct.
Another thing is that FW point costs are sometimes way off, in one direction or another.
Sicaran Battle Tank: who doesn't want one. Or ten really.
Eldar Hornet: same. The previous edition of the Eldar Hornet rules was ridiculously overcosted, it's now a bit undercosted, they'll get it right next time, in about five years I guess.
Some FW players do categorize all of FW as not OP broken and that is of course not correct.
Absoutely true, but no more true for FW than it is for units in 40K codex's, in the much cited example of waveserpents, riptides, wraithknights etc.
Wrong. There's a thick line between the worst of 40K and the worst of FW. There is stuff in FW that makes WaveSerpents, Riptides and WraithKnights look like banshees.
Xenomancers wrote: If your argument is is FW is okay because wave serpents you have lost this argument.
The number of overcapable things from FW is far fewer than the number of overcapable stuff from GW, and by far the most abuseable things in the game are from GW, not FW. FW is not going to harm balance.
Besides, when you can take allies, multiple detachments, and formations (especially formations involving things like flying FMC's with objective secured jump infantry and recycling units), etc, Forgeworld is the least of your balance worries for any sort of competitive environment.
Wrong. There's a thick line between the worst of 40K and the worst of FW. There is stuff in FW that makes WaveSerpents, Riptides and WraithKnights look like banshees.
I ask for details first. If it doesn't seem like too much of a cornucopia of unkillable special rules and fire power, I'm all for it. A lot of forge world stuff is just new and different, but there are some nasty/annoying ones out there.
Void Shield Generator. For one hundred points, you get 3 void shields that shield anything within 12", can be hidden behind another (even wrecked) generator, etc.
Sicaran Battle Tank. The one tank to rule them all. It makes Wave Serpents look like a piece of crap.
Eldar Hornet. For 80 points you get AV11, Scout, Acute Senses, 24" flat out, dual pulse lasers and snap fire after flat out. It was wildly overcosted in the previous edition, and FW did the usual thing, they twisted the knobs a bit too hard.
In a previous edition: Eldar Lynx, for 320 points you could get a Pulsar and 6HP on Eldar Titan HoloFields.
Cerastus Knight Lancer: because IK aren't good enough yet despite their 62% win rate, here's a model you can't even dodge. Die already heretic scum. The emperor demands it.
Sicarian? 135 points, infernal relic so my chaos can only take one unless I take specific HQ's, not exactly world shattering with 6 rending shots that ignore Jink, hard counter to skimmers maybe but still.
Havent touched eldar FW nor have the books to hand to comment.
The lancer is a beast, but its a 400 point beast and can be countered.
Sicarian? 135 points, infernal relic so my chaos can only take one unless I take specific HQ's, not exactly world shattering with 6 rending shots that ignore Jink, hard counter to skimmers maybe but still.
Havent touched eldar FW nor have the books to hand to comment.
The lancer is a beast, but its a 400 point beast and can be countered.
Still way better than anything GW.
135 points to feth up any skimmer in the game ? come on, not even the Wave Serpent is that good.
And the Void Shield Gen is Stronghold/Apoc/FW territory tbh - even though that's now part of the standard GW line.
FW tends to give their army lists specific mechanics, which if built around can do well while also being fluffy. While I rarely win with my Korps, as my club has become uber-competitive, and standard guardsmen with tank and arty support simply can't compete, but I'm rarely stomped, and my victories are always narrow. No one bats an eye at them these days, and I use a superheavy as a standard part of my army, the Macharius battle tank.
FW makes some specifically powerful units, but their actual armies, played as a whole are rarely particularly strong versus GW prime offerings. Yes, the Sicaran is very good, as are Contemptor Dreadnoughts and Thudd Guns, but they all have codex equivalents which are equitable or better, and merely serve another niche and represent an unknown to players who, in my experience, thrive on knowing their opponent's list enough to play against it from memory, or will tailor against it. With casual or fluff players, no one has ever reacted poorly to even some of the more powerful FW units, like the Land Raider Achilles.
One thing that I think also helps is that people who fork over the cash for FW tend to lovingly paint them, and in my opinion, someone who clearly cares about their army beyond just smashing face, even if their list does smash face, I'm much less likely to be annoyed by them. Bare grey Eldar lists or 3 colour minimum/commission painted flavour of the month lists, now those get my ire up, FW or not.
FW is just one facet of GW, whom I'd say is on the whole better at producing reasonably balanced and fluffy rules within such a bloated mess as 40k's ruleset, but FW/GW is not the issue, in my opnion, that one should focus on, and rather if someone's a cheesy git abusing the best rules or combinations they can find.
Void Shield Generator. For one hundred points, you get 3 void shields that shield anything within 12", can be hidden behind another (even wrecked) generator, etc.
Not a Forgeworld unit.
Sicaran Battle Tank. The one tank to rule them all. It makes Wave Serpents look like a piece of crap.
The one that, before any upgrades, costs as much as a kitted wave serpent or a Trilas predator, is a tracked tank with no Jink capability, has a shorter range than a Wave Serpent with its S7 weapon, has no transport capacity, doesn't have a shield that downgrades Pen's to Glances on a 2+, and only ignores Jink saves with its S7 shots and not all cover? The one that needs specific, typically sub-optimal, HQ choices to be able to take more than 1 in an army?
Eldar Hornet. For 80 points you get AV11, Scout, Acute Senses, 24" flat out, dual pulse lasers and snap fire after flat out. It was wildly overcosted in the previous edition, and FW did the usual thing, they twisted the knobs a bit too hard.
AV11 and 2 hull points. It might be a little cheap, I'd have knocked Acute Senses off, but hardly a paragon of overpowered insanity. If it wants to live, it's only ever going to be snap-firing.
In a previous edition: Eldar Lynx, for 320 points you could get a Pulsar and 6HP on Eldar Titan HoloFields.
Back in 5th edition, 4 years ago, when it wasn't something you could take in a normal game but rather only Apocalypse, and was hardly anything near the paragon of broken Apocalypse things even then.
Cerastus Knight Lancer: because IK aren't good enough yet despite their 62% win rate, here's a model you can't even dodge. Die already heretic scum. The emperor demands it.
A variant that costs notably more than the others, is limited in the numbers you can take, and has far shorter ranged, and lower strength, firepower than the other variants?
135 points to feth up any skimmer in the game ? come on, not even the Wave Serpent is that good.
How is it *not*? Wave Serpent can put out similar strength firepower, at longer ranges, with a similar number of shots (sometimes less, sometimes more), and typically twin linked (with ubiquitous scatterlaser), and ignore *all* cover with the shield cannon (not just the Jink portion), and it's a dedicated transport, not a heavy support unit.
I was of the understanding that the void shield generator appeared in Stronghold Assault (GW) and was made by GW, without any forgeworld interference there?
Sicarian is 6 Str 7 shots (twinlinked) with rending that ignore jink, so yeah they hit on average with 5 but lets assume all 6, I dont know what the front armour of a waveserpent is but I'd assume 12, so one pen and one glance. The pen cant blow it up because of the mighty AP of 4. 3 Hull points so on average 2 turns of solid shooting the wave serpent to kill it. I'm really struggling to see how this 135 point non-transport tank taking 1/3 the game to destroy a 130 point dedicated transport is OP.
NauticalKendall wrote:
But as far as the Tau part goes, the R'Varna was Actually AP3 at first but was made AP4 after being a complete rape train that lacked breaks.
Rape is not a joke and the R'varna is not in any way involved with it. Have you been spending too much time in the cesspit that is 1d4chan?
morgoth wrote:
135 points to feth up any skimmer in the game ? come on, not even the Wave Serpent is that good.
Actually, it is. Meanwhile, "ignores jink" does not mean all skimmers immediately explode if they take a turn on the same table as the Sicarian.
morgoth wrote:And the Void Shield Gen is Stronghold/Apoc/FW territory tbh - even though that's now part of the standard GW line.
Stronghold Assault, and consequently the Void Shield Generator, was GW from the beginning. It's also not really that impressive.
NauticalKendall wrote:
But as far as the Tau part goes, the R'Varna was Actually AP3 at first but was made AP4 after being a complete rape train that lacked breaks.
Rape is not a joke and the R'varna is not in any way involved with it. Have you been spending too much time in the cesspit that is 1d4chan?
"Rape train" is a piece of crudity that exists for the sake of hyperbole, it's not there to laugh at or belittle the idea of rape. Insensitive, certainly, but also not without precedent and contextually fitting. 1d4chan is a fair source of tactics advice even if their language is somewhat less refined than it might be.
morgoth wrote:
135 points to feth up any skimmer in the game ? come on, not even the Wave Serpent is that good.
Actually, it is. Meanwhile, "ignores jink" does not mean all skimmers immediately explode if they take a turn on the same table as the Sicarian.
The expected value of a round of shooting from a Sicarian against an AV12 vehicle is about 1.75 hull points. Good, particularly brutal against AV10 skimmers (averaging 3.5 hull points there), but it doesn't invalidate anything.
Mostly. They're okay on hyper-terrain-heavy boards where you don't get sniped down turn one for getting suicide multi-meltas and heavy flamers places quickly (but it's an aggressive defense strategy and it doesn't work well if the other guy is going to hang back and not run at you).
Funnily enough the Forge World Land Speeder Tempest is actually not too bad if you're fighting people that have rear AV 10 vehicles and/or support models.
NauticalKendall wrote:
But as far as the Tau part goes, the R'Varna was Actually AP3 at first but was made AP4 after being a complete rape train that lacked breaks.
Rape is not a joke and the R'varna is not in any way involved with it. Have you been spending too much time in the cesspit that is 1d4chan?
"Rape train" is a piece of crudity that exists for the sake of hyperbole, it's not there to laugh at or belittle the idea of rape. Insensitive, certainly, but also not without precedent and contextually fitting. 1d4chan is a fair source of tactics advice even if their language is somewhat less refined than it might be.
Except that it does. Such language is never contextually fitting, and any precedent it has is incredibly stupid.
It's relatively inexpensive, the model is very accessible, it's easy to hide on the table (behind a Monolith, for instance) because it's small, it doesn't have the vulnerability to one melta shot up the behind the way super-heavy vehicles sort of do, and it can brutalize any target very easily in contrast to most units' single optimal target.
If you've got lots of guns that can engage Gargantuan Creatures effectively and don't mind this glowy naked guy shredding a thousand points of models at a time you're fine, but most regular-scale armies will have trouble with him.
AnomanderRake wrote: It's relatively inexpensive, the model is very accessible, it's easy to hide on the table (behind a Monolith, for instance) because it's small, it doesn't have the vulnerability to one melta shot up the behind the way super-heavy vehicles sort of do, and it can brutalize any target very easily in contrast to most units' single optimal target.
If you've got lots of guns that can engage Gargantuan Creatures effectively and don't mind this glowy naked guy shredding a thousand points of models at a time you're fine, but most regular-scale armies will have trouble with him.
I know I would never play the T-C'tan in a regular game unless I my opponent asked me to play it.
But hey, since this model is not FW I don't think it's on topic!
We're still looking for overpowered models that are actually from Forgeworld.
Really comparing a dedicated transport to a dedicated main battle tank and complaining that the battle tank can kill a transport? It should, and should do so easily, but it doesn't. Front armor on a serpent is av 12, you need 5s to even glance it. So you don't get a jink save, boo frikken hoo, its a transport, you have more.
7th edition made speeders useless, not the dreaded Sicaran.
Mine rarely lives through a game. I play both elder and HH so I see both sides of it. There is very little I would call cheese in current FW. It all has its negatives. "Oh you have 5 marines with melta guns in a drop pod, that's cheesy." Yeah that squad also cost over 200 points and still only rarely can kill a knight in a volley. And of course its supposed to take out a land raider in a volley, they are a dedicated anti-tank unit that's going to die next turn from the guys who get out. 20 assault marines? Cheese- Really? 450 points hello?
Sorry, what it comes down to is the anti-FW people just like to complain. Pick better people to play against. You are going to find TFG in every group, but you find the one TFG who happens to play FW and now all of FW is bad? Grow up. FW is what GW should be a much more balanced game rules with better models.
Oh and the Lynx is AV11 and is still 300+ points. You can kill it with heavy bolters or anything str5 or better.
NauticalKendall wrote:
But as far as the Tau part goes, the R'Varna was Actually AP3 at first but was made AP4 after being a complete rape train that lacked breaks.
Rape is not a joke and the R'varna is not in any way involved with it. Have you been spending too much time in the cesspit that is 1d4chan?
"Rape train" is a piece of crudity that exists for the sake of hyperbole, it's not there to laugh at or belittle the idea of rape. Insensitive, certainly, but also not without precedent and contextually fitting. 1d4chan is a fair source of tactics advice even if their language is somewhat less refined than it might be.
Except that it does. Such language is never contextually fitting, and any precedent it has is incredibly stupid.
Since I hate to see arguments about semantics take over discussions this is the last I'm going to say on the subject; you may have the last word if you so choose. The phrase "rape train" is a meme derived from hyperbole and its current useage has about as much to do with rape as "hooligan" has with hating the Irish. Its usage in NauticalKendall's sentence was correct based on the common definition of the term. You may find the etymology of the phrase offensive but that doesn't change the phrase itself.
(To the audience: it could be worse, we could be arguing over false etymology for "picnic" or "niggardly", this is an argument that actually has two sides with a leg to stand on)
AnomanderRake wrote: It's relatively inexpensive, the model is very accessible, it's easy to hide on the table (behind a Monolith, for instance) because it's small, it doesn't have the vulnerability to one melta shot up the behind the way super-heavy vehicles sort of do, and it can brutalize any target very easily in contrast to most units' single optimal target.
If you've got lots of guns that can engage Gargantuan Creatures effectively and don't mind this glowy naked guy shredding a thousand points of models at a time you're fine, but most regular-scale armies will have trouble with him.
I know I would never play the T-C'tan in a regular game unless I my opponent asked me to play it.
But hey, since this model is not FW I don't think it's on topic!
We're still looking for overpowered models that are actually from Forgeworld.
Lynx before the nerf (doesn't really count since the nerf made it a lot more reasonable), Land Raider Achilles (which remains badly designed), Revenant (which has been pumped a hundred points since it was really silly). Those are the ones that I can think of off the top of my head, any other examples are internal balance rather than external OP-ness (the Forge World Predators are up and better than their standard counterparts even if they're not broken per se, the Vampire is literally a Thunderhawk only better...)
I think the point being made with the example of the Transcendent C'tan is that Games Workshop main are far worse at doing what people accuse of Forge World, that being the creation of overpowered superheavies/gargantuans.
NauticalKendall wrote:
But as far as the Tau part goes, the R'Varna was Actually AP3 at first but was made AP4 after being a complete rape train that lacked breaks.
Rape is not a joke and the R'varna is not in any way involved with it. Have you been spending too much time in the cesspit that is 1d4chan?
"Rape train" is a piece of crudity that exists for the sake of hyperbole, it's not there to laugh at or belittle the idea of rape. Insensitive, certainly, but also not without precedent and contextually fitting. 1d4chan is a fair source of tactics advice even if their language is somewhat less refined than it might be.
Except that it does. Such language is never contextually fitting, and any precedent it has is incredibly stupid.
Since I hate to see arguments about semantics take over discussions this is the last I'm going to say on the subject; you may have the last word if you so choose. The phrase "rape train" is a meme derived from hyperbole and its current useage has about as much to do with rape as "hooligan" has with hating the Irish. Its usage in NauticalKendall's sentence was correct based on the common definition of the term. You may find the etymology of the phrase offensive but that doesn't change the phrase itself.
(To the audience: it could be worse, we could be arguing over false etymology for "picnic" or "niggardly", this is an argument that actually has two sides with a leg to stand on)
If I'm to have the last word on the subject, let it be to say that you have, for some reason, chosen to actively defend rape culture as a form of legitimate humour. Also, "it's okay to say it because other people have said it a lot" is really not a "a leg to stand on".
If I'm to have the last word on the subject, let it be to say that you have, for some reason, chosen to actively defend rape culture as a form of legitimate humour. Also, "it's okay to say it because other people have said it a lot" is really not a "a leg to stand on".
(I suddenly see the problem with declaring the end of the argument where I did...)
If I'm to have the last word on the subject, let it be to say that you have, for some reason, chosen to actively defend rape culture as a form of legitimate humour. Also, "it's okay to say it because other people have said it a lot" is really not a "a leg to stand on".
Now I am going to jump in, people can and will say what they what, its a fact of life. Ignore it, if it bothers you this much send the person a PM and kindly ask them to not use. Also remember that Rape Culture is a thinly defined and often disagreed upon theoretical concept. There is little in this world that isn't trivialized, and rape shouldn't get any special treatment. Welcome to humanity enjoy your stay.
On topic, I have to agree with the majority of posters about this topic. I see little wrong with using FW rules in standard games, though I do believe you should inform you opponents before hand if you intend to play such an army. LoW such as Primarchs and Super Heavies I always believe in asking an opponents permission even if with new rules you are allowed to have them regardless.
hellpato wrote: Those who doesn't like FW are those guys who bring a knife in a gun fight.
Yep that described me! For 6 years I played without the aid of Forge World models. They have some powerful stuff and the analogy should be, "Those who doesn't like FW are those guys who bring a tooth pick in a battle tank fight." I used my GW only army and fought these other armies with 1 or 2 forge world units and they just wreck my army in 1 turn and I proceed to lose.
Care to provide an example?
Why Yes, Are there LORDS OF WAR models in the Chaos Space Marine Codex? I am talking about Fellblades, Typhon, Thunderhawk Gunship, Warhound Titans, Reaver titans, Brass Scorpions 666 pt Daemons! All of these are not in the core CSM codex! If you only limit yourself to CSM core codex and fight some one with IA13 then you are seriously handicapping yourself as you are just bringing lascannons oh vehicles and meltas on marines while trying to fight Strength D weaponry! What am I to do? Ally Imperial Knights? That would be the go to answer to fight super heavies if the codex lacked super heavies.
Filch wrote:The only way to fight this cheese is to spend more money to buy FW books and buy FW models. How are you going to argue that FW are on the same level as GW units?
Vaktathi wrote:Because most are?
You can have regular helbrutes from CSM codex and the data slates, or you can go forge world and get the better av13 dreadnaughts in IA13. You can have regular predators and the lame land raider from the CSM codex or you can get relic predators and Landraiders with much better options. You can field Heldrake from the regular codex or you can choose from among the many choices of flyers in IA13.
Filch wrote: If you own a FW model its because a.) it looked better or b.) you wanted something that wins!
Vaktathi wrote:And your reasoning for this is...?
Do you own any FW models? If so, why did you buy it over GW equivalent models? You going to tell me you chose FW models because it looked unsatisfactory than GW equivalent? You going to tell me you like to waste money on units that lose? I would buy FW if it looked better and or help me win better.
Filch wrote:
They write these rules for Forge World so much better because they want you buy these obscenely exorbitant plastic models over expensive GW models.
Vaktathi wrote:Except...usually they're pretty mediocre, and GW's models are commonly coming out at the exact same price as many FW models now...
Filch wrote:Its all about $$$!
I'm not entirely sure you really have much of an idea of what you're talking about here...
Sure some FW are mediocre but who cares about those models. What I am talking about is the cream of the crop that everyone wants because it wins. From the IA13, I am raving about the impressive Sicaran, Typhon, Relic Predator, Fire Raptor Gunships etc.. that people love to take, not the Blood Slaughterer, Ferrum Infernus Dread, Hell Talon what ever what ever never sees the light of day.
So you telling me Forge World is not in the business to sell models and make more money? GW sells only 1 type of Imperial Knight on their website for $140. FW sell 3 variants for 170 euros or $200. I guess 40% more is exactly the same price. When you say GW models are commonly coming out at the exact same price as many FW now, does that mean their prices have increased to match FW? Or did FW drop down to GW? If the price hike of GW has matched FW then that is a shame.
Why Yes, Are there LORDS OF WAR models in the Chaos Space Marine Codex? I am talking about Fellblades, Typhon, Thunderhawk Gunship, Warhound Titans, Reaver titans, Brass Scorpions 666 pt Daemons! All of these are not in the core CSM codex! If you only limit yourself to CSM core codex and fight some one with IA13 then you are seriously handicapping yourself as you are just bringing lascannons oh vehicles and meltas on marines while trying to fight Strength D weaponry! What am I to do? Ally Imperial Knights? That would be the go to answer to fight super heavies if the codex lacked super heavies.
You do realize that the rules for the Thunderhawk, Reaver, and Warhound are all written by GW, as well as the rules allowing them in normal games came from GW right? All FW did to the Reaver and Warhound is add some god specific daemonic gifts. Otherwise FW just casts the resin.
When FW alone wrote rules for superheavies, they weren't allowed in normal games, GW allowed those. That said, a Fellblade or Baneblade isn't going to dominate a game much more than say, a trio of Leman Russ tanks will.
Filch wrote:
You can have regular helbrutes from CSM codex and the data slates, or you can go forge world and get the better av13 dreadnaughts in IA13.
I have IA13, are you referring to Contemptor dreads that cost almost *twice* as much as basic dreads before any upgrades? Because...I hate to tell you, but they're not exactly great for their cost either. If you give them a ranged weapon and a Dedication, they cost as much as a Land Raider.
You can have regular predators and the lame land raider from the CSM codex or you can get relic predators and Landraiders with much better options.
The Relic Predators have limits and restrictions on how and how many can be taken, and are all more expensive than basic predators. What weapons options exactly are so much better for their cost than the basic Predator? A short ranged meltacannon on a slow tank for the price of a Wave Serpent before any other upgrades? A naked Conversion Beamer predator for the price of most Leman Russ tanks? These are the "way" better options? Nobody is rushing out to buy these units and kits for their wtfpwniwin lists really...
Neither Land Raider variant in IA13 is going to make anyone want to run out and buy them, they're both pretty bad. The Spartan is pretty solid and better than the basic Land Raider in an absolute sense, but also costs way more points and cannot be taken as a dedicated transport for Terminators the way a Land Raider can, it can only be taken as a Heavy Support option.
You can field Heldrake from the regular codex or you can choose from among the many choices of flyers in IA13.
And the Heldrake is still either outright superior, or more cost effective, than the IA13 flyers, the Fire Raptor being the only potential exception (but is also more expensive with no daemonic save and has to pay for possession and doesn't get its daemonforge rule, and isn't going to remove squads of marines from the table with no armor or cover saves).
Filch wrote:
Do you own any FW models? If so, why did you buy it over GW equivalent models? You going to tell me you chose FW models because it looked unsatisfactory than GW equivalent? You going to tell me you like to waste money on units that lose? I would buy FW if it looked better and or help me win better.
My point was that they're far from the only reasons to buy FW. I do own better looking FW alternatives to normal GW models. I also however have a Death Korps assault brigade, if you've read IA12, this army isn't particularly good, it just looks cool, but it's not simply a "better looking" version of an IG army, it's a relatively uniquely functioning IG army (but not really a particularly competitive one) that doesn't simply overlay directly with the basic IG codex. I also own units like Decimators for my CSM's. I didn't buy them to use as "prettier" dreadnoughts, and I certainly didn't buy them for their ability to help me win (because they won't).
Filch wrote:
Sure some FW are mediocre but who cares about those models.
I own tons of them. I've got dozens of DKoK Grenadiers and Engineers, DKoK heavy weapons squads, IG Heavy Mortars, DKoK Death Riders, Hades Breaching Drills, Autocannon turret chimeras, Chaos Decimators, Nightwing Interceptor, etc. None of these are exactly going to overpower most opponents.
What I am talking about is the cream of the crop that everyone wants because it wins.
How's that any different from Codex books? I mean...really?
From the IA13, I am raving about the impressive Sicaran, Typhon, Relic Predator, Fire Raptor Gunships etc.. that people love to take, not the Blood Slaughterer, Ferrum Infernus Dread, Hell Talon what ever what ever never sees the light of day.
Sicaran's are good, but hardly amazingly overpowered. You're the only person I think ever think the Relic Predators are particularly great. Typhons are solid Lords of War, but also aren't exactly the hardest to kill either and most people would consider a basic Knight to be a much greater threat. Fire Raptors can be pretty brutal against certain armies, but they'll often end up being pointless against others.
So you telling me Forge World is not in the business to sell models and make more money?
No, I'm saying that they're not in the business of making stuff overpowered just to make money. FW stuff costs more not just because "it's all about $$$", but because they have higher costs themselves and lower production volumes, and generally increase their prices largely in line with inflation, unlike GW.
GW sells only 1 type of Imperial Knight on their website for $140. FW sell 3 variants for 170 euros or $200. I guess 40% more is exactly the same price. When you say GW models are commonly coming out at the exact same price as many FW now, does that mean their prices have increased to match FW? Or did FW drop down to GW? If the price hike of GW has matched FW then that is a shame.
FW's prices have stayed largely stagnant, while GW's have gone through the roof. As an example, when DKoK Grenadiers first came out in 2006, they were 32 UKP, now they're 39 UKP, about 22% more, roughly in line with general inflation for the same time period. GW Kasrkin were $40 for 10 models in 2006, they've been removed from sale along with the old Stormtroopers (never available as a 10man box), and replaced with the Scions for $35 for 5 models, a 75% price increase in effectively the same unit over the same time period. Basic Cadian infantry were $35 for 20 models in early 2009, now they're $30 for 10 models, a ~72% price increase in just a few years. To go back to the Knights, when the Baneblade kit came out in 2007, it cost $90, the Knight that came out 6 years later, $140.
Filch wrote: Sure some FW are mediocre but who cares about those models. What I am talking about is the cream of the crop that everyone wants because it wins. From the IA13, I am raving about the impressive Sicaran, Typhon, Relic Predator, Fire Raptor Gunships etc.. that people love to take, not the Blood Slaughterer, Ferrum Infernus Dread, Hell Talon what ever what ever never sees the light of day.
If this is a reason to ban FW rules then it's also a reason to ban codex rules. Have fun playing your special version of 40k on an empty table because every source of unbalanced rules has been banned.
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Vaktathi wrote: Typhons are solid Lords of War, but also aren't exactly the hardest to kill either and most people would consider a basic Knight to be a much greater threat.
Yeah, I don't get the love for the Typhon. It's just an IG Stormsword (a "main GW" unit) with a weaker gun, fewer HP, and a lower price tag to make up for it. Competitive players would never even consider using it if GW hadn't completely screwed up the original escalation book (where imperial armies and necrons get all of the good stuff and everyone else might as well have blank pages).
Why Yes, Are there LORDS OF WAR models in the Chaos Space Marine Codex? I am talking about Fellblades, Typhon, Thunderhawk Gunship, Warhound Titans, Reaver titans, Brass Scorpions 666 pt Daemons! All of these are not in the core CSM codex! If you only limit yourself to CSM core codex and fight some one with IA13 then you are seriously handicapping yourself as you are just bringing lascannons oh vehicles and meltas on marines while trying to fight Strength D weaponry! What am I to do? Ally Imperial Knights? That would be the go to answer to fight super heavies if the codex lacked super heavies.
Vaktathi wrote:You do realize that the rules for the Thunderhawk, Reaver, and Warhound are all written by GW, as well as the rules allowing them in normal games came from GW right? All FW did to the Reaver and Warhound is add some god specific daemonic gifts. Otherwise FW just casts the resin.
When FW alone wrote rules for superheavies, they weren't allowed in normal games, GW allowed those. That said, a Fellblade or Baneblade isn't going to dominate a game much more than say, a trio of Leman Russ tanks will.
You do realize that when GW wrote the CSM codex, it had no thunderhawk, reaver, and warhounds right? I had to go and buy Imperial Armor volume 13 book at the forgeworld website so I can also buy some of these models from FW because GW doesnt make it.
filch wrote: You can have regular predators and the lame land raider from the CSM codex or you can get relic predators and Landraiders with much better options.
vaktathi wrote:The Relic Predators have limits and restrictions on how and how many can be taken, and are all more expensive than basic predators. What weapons options exactly are so much better for their cost than the basic Predator? A short ranged meltacannon on a slow tank for the price of a Wave Serpent before any other upgrades? A naked Conversion Beamer predator for the price of most Leman Russ tanks? These are the "way" better options? Nobody is rushing out to buy these units and kits for their wtfpwniwin lists really...
Neither Land Raider variant in IA13 is going to make anyone want to run out and buy them, they're both pretty bad. The Spartan is pretty solid and better than the basic Land Raider in an absolute sense, but also costs way more points and cannot be taken as a dedicated transport for Terminators the way a Land Raider can, it can only be taken as a Heavy Support option.
Malefic ammunition on predator heavy bolter, 20 seats on a forge world lr vs the 10 on CSM one, other weapons besides the conflicting twinlinked lascannons on a lr.
filch wrote:You can field Heldrake from the regular codex or you can choose from among the many choices of flyers in IA13.
Vaktathi wrote:And the Heldrake is still either outright superior, or more cost effective, than the IA13 flyers, the Fire Raptor being the only potential exception (but is also more expensive with no daemonic save and has to pay for possession and doesn't get its daemonforge rule, and isn't going to remove squads of marines from the table with no armor or cover saves).
So there is absolutely no reason for anyone to use Hell Blades and Plague Drones because Heldrake is still king? You better warn all the people planning to buy some in the Army List forum.
Filch wrote:
Do you own any FW models? If so, why did you buy it over GW equivalent models? You going to tell me you chose FW models because it looked unsatisfactory than GW equivalent? You going to tell me you like to waste money on units that lose? I would buy FW if it looked better and or help me win better.
Vaktathi wrote:My point was that they're far from the only reasons to buy FW. I do own better looking FW alternatives to normal GW models. I also however have a Death Korps assault brigade, if you've read IA12, this army isn't particularly good, it just looks cool, but it's not simply a "better looking" version of an IG army, it's a relatively uniquely functioning IG army (but not really a particularly competitive one) that doesn't simply overlay directly with the basic IG codex. I also own units like Decimators for my CSM's. I didn't buy them to use as "prettier" dreadnoughts, and I certainly didn't buy them for their ability to help me win (because they won't).
Great for you, you have much more disposable income than me to collect FW models frivolously for thematic armies.
Filch wrote:
Sure some FW are mediocre but who cares about those models.
Vaktahi wrote: I own tons of them. I've got dozens of DKoK Grenadiers and Engineers, DKoK heavy weapons squads, IG Heavy Mortars, DKoK Death Riders, Hades Breaching Drills, Autocannon turret chimeras, Chaos Decimators, Nightwing Interceptor, etc. None of these are exactly going to overpower most opponents.
Like I said, I do not care about the models collecting dust.
Filch wrote:What I am talking about is the cream of the crop that everyone wants because it wins.
Vaktahi wrote: How's that any different from Codex books? I mean...really?
Because you take the best of the best from the Core Codex army and then add the best of the best from a FW supplement and you fight an army that only uses the Core Codex army with out anything else, which is more likely to win?
Filch wrote:From the IA13, I am raving about the impressive Sicaran, Typhon, Relic Predator, Fire Raptor Gunships etc.. that people love to take, not the Blood Slaughterer, Ferrum Infernus Dread, Hell Talon what ever what ever never sees the light of day.
Vaktathi wrote:Sicaran's are good, but hardly amazingly overpowered. You're the only person I think ever think the Relic Predators are particularly great. Typhons are solid Lords of War, but also aren't exactly the hardest to kill either and most people would consider a basic Knight to be a much greater threat. Fire Raptors can be pretty brutal against certain armies, but they'll often end up being pointless against others.
Sicaran rapid tracking stops targets from taking jink saves which really helps a CSM army kill Wave Serpents or what ever zooms around with jink saves. Malefic Ammunition gives hb some teeth. Typhons have a large blast Str 10 Ap1 Cannon that ignores cover even if you do not roll a 6 like Str D weapons.
Filch wrote:So you telling me Forge World is not in the business to sell models and make more money?
Vaktathi wrote: No, I'm saying that they're not in the business of making stuff overpowered just to make money. FW stuff costs more not just because "it's all about $$$", but because they have higher costs themselves and lower production volumes, and generally increase their prices largely in line with inflation, unlike GW.
Oh but did you not say the price for models from GW are equal to FW? Now you are trying to tell me FW maybe a bit more expensive because they have a smaller supply than GW?
Vaktathi wrote: GW sells only 1 type of Imperial Knight on their website for $140. FW sell 3 variants for 170 euros or $200. I guess 40% more is exactly the same price. When you say GW models are commonly coming out at the exact same price as many FW now, does that mean their prices have increased to match FW? Or did FW drop down to GW? If the price hike of GW has matched FW then that is a shame.
Vaktathi wrote:FW's prices have stayed largely stagnant, while GW's have gone through the roof. As an example, when DKoK Grenadiers first came out in 2006, they were 32 UKP, now they're 39 UKP, about 22% more, roughly in line with general inflation for the same time period. GW Kasrkin were $40 for 10 models in 2006, they've been removed from sale along with the old Stormtroopers (never available as a 10man box), and replaced with the Scions for $35 for 5 models, a 75% price increase in effectively the same unit over the same time period. Basic Cadian infantry were $35 for 20 models in early 2009, now they're $30 for 10 models, a ~72% price increase in just a few years. To go back to the Knights, when the Baneblade kit came out in 2007, it cost $90, the Knight that came out 6 years later, $140.
Like I said, that is a shame that GW prices have caught up with FW.
Peregrine wrote:
Filch wrote: Sure some FW are mediocre but who cares about those models. What I am talking about is the cream of the crop that everyone wants because it wins. From the IA13, I am raving about the impressive Sicaran, Typhon, Relic Predator, Fire Raptor Gunships etc.. that people love to take, not the Blood Slaughterer, Ferrum Infernus Dread, Hell Talon what ever what ever never sees the light of day.
Peregrine wrote:
If this is a reason to ban FW rules then it's also a reason to ban codex rules. Have fun playing your special version of 40k on an empty table because every source of unbalanced rules has been banned.
Let me fill you in, I have been fighting other armies without the aid of using any Forge World units myself well before GW made them official in escalation or 6th ed. Some times I get lucky and destroy their FW model and I scrape out a small victory grabbing just 1 point after they delete 80% of my army. Or I lose horribly when I fail to hurt that FW unit as the rest of his army blast mine away.
Peregrine wrote:
Vaktathi wrote: Typhons are solid Lords of War, but also aren't exactly the hardest to kill either and most people would consider a basic Knight to be a much greater threat.
Yeah, I don't get the love for the Typhon. It's just an IG Stormsword (a "main GW" unit) with a weaker gun, fewer HP, and a lower price tag to make up for it. Competitive players would never even consider using it if GW hadn't completely screwed up the original escalation book (where imperial armies and necrons get all of the good stuff and everyone else might as well have blank pages).
Because CSM doesn't get a stormsword? CSM armies have to ally IG to get a Stormsword. The Typhon gives us CSM players a S 10 AP1 Large blast that ignores cover which is something CSM needs in the fire power department.
Filch wrote: You do realize that when GW wrote the CSM codex, it had no thunderhawk, reaver, and warhounds right? I had to go and buy Imperial Armor volume 13 book at the forgeworld website so I can also buy some of these models from FW because GW doesnt make it.
Yeah, it's unbelievable how broken FW is. If you allow those superheavies you might actually give chaos armies an option that can compete with the imperial superheavies (including the utterly broken Warhound titan) get in "main GW" books. And that would just ruin the game.
Malefic ammunition on predator heavy bolter, 20 seats on a forge world lr vs the 10 on CSM one, other weapons besides the conflicting twinlinked lascannons on a lr.
All of which cost points. And the Spartan is especially hilarious because it's incredibly expensive and only gets even more expensive once you put 20 models into it. Yeah, you can build some ridiculous 1000 point terminator death star with one, but have fun winning the game when I just feed it a 50-point squad of guardsmen every turn.
Let me fill you in, I have been fighting other armies without the aid of using any Forge World units myself well before GW made them official in escalation or 6th ed. Some times I get lucky and destroy their FW model and I scrape out a small victory grabbing just 1 point after they delete 80% of my army. Or I lose horribly when I fail to hurt that FW unit as the rest of his army blast mine away.
Either you're lying about losing horribly because of a single FW model, your opponents are cheating, or you just suck at 40k. Nothing FW publishes is so powerful that a single model is going to delete 80% of your army, unless there are "main GW" lists that would do the exact same thing to you.
Because CSM doesn't get a stormsword? CSM armies have to ally IG to get a Stormsword. The Typhon gives us CSM players a S 10 AP1 Large blast that ignores cover which is something CSM needs in the fire power department.
So your argument that FW is overpowered is that it gives pure CSM a unit that is almost as good as the "main GW" equivalent IG get to take?
Malefic ammunition on predator heavy bolter, 20 seats on a forge world lr vs the 10 on CSM one, other weapons besides the conflicting twinlinked lascannons on a lr.
All of which cost points. And the Spartan is especially hilarious because it's incredibly expensive and only gets even more expensive once you put 20 models into it. Yeah, you can build some ridiculous 1000 point terminator death star with one, but have fun winning the game when I just feed it a 50-point squad of guardsmen every turn.
Further absurdity on the same subject: The Chaos Land Raider and the Spartan are there as assault transports primarily, there isn't another good reason to take them.
The Storm Eagle (also a FW unit, I will concede) is better at it than either of them for fewer points.
Let me fill you in, I have been fighting other armies without the aid of using any Forge World units myself well before GW made them official in escalation or 6th ed. Some times I get lucky and destroy their FW model and I scrape out a small victory grabbing just 1 point after they delete 80% of my army. Or I lose horribly when I fail to hurt that FW unit as the rest of his army blast mine away.
Either you're lying about losing horribly because of a single FW model, your opponents are cheating, or you just suck at 40k. Nothing FW publishes is so powerful that a single model is going to delete 80% of your army, unless there are "main GW" lists that would do the exact same thing to you.
A Revenant in a 1,500pt game might, but if there's a Revenant in a 1,500pt game you've got bigger problems. (Also the most current rules are from GW, not FW)
AnomanderRake wrote: A Revenant in a 1,500pt game might, but if there's a Revenant in a 1,500pt game you've got bigger problems. (Also the most current rules are from GW, not FW)
Well, by "FW model" I mean a model with rules published by FW, which the Revenant isn't.
AnomanderRake wrote: A Revenant in a 1,500pt game might, but if there's a Revenant in a 1,500pt game you've got bigger problems. (Also the most current rules are from GW, not FW)
Well, by "FW model" I mean a model with rules published by FW, which the Revenant isn't.
The most current rules for all the big stuff are in Apocalypse now.
Except the Daemon Lords, which keep getting hit by the nerfbat every time I see them.
Yes they're the same company, but there are two different studios.
You do realize that the CSM codex had no thunderhawk, reaver, and warhounds right?
What's you're point? Rules for Thunderhawks, Reavers, and Warhounds aren't in C:SM or C:IG either. They are however in the Apocalypse and Escalation books, written by GW's core studio. FW just slapped them in IA13 with a couple extra widgets to make them accessible to CSM's.
I had to go and buy Imperial Armor volume 13 book at the forgeworld website so I can also buy some of these models from FW because GW doesnt make it.
For CSM's yes, because GW's bad at organizing their rules and these units exist alongside the forces of the CSM in the fluff and in other game iterations (i.e. Epic).
Malefic ammunition on predator heavy bolter, 20 seats on a forge world lr vs the 10 on CSM one, other weapons besides the conflicting twinlinked lascannons on a lr.
Malefic ammunition is absurdly, hilarious overpriced, nobody considers it a particularly good or even mediocre option.
Only the Spartan has increased transport capacity and has the same conflicting weapons loadout of lascannons and heavy bolters (and again, costs *way* more than a normal Land Raider), the other Land Raiders do not have an increased transport capacity, in fact one only has a transport capacity of 6 and neither have the Assault Vehicle rule. One has the same weapons as a basic LR and the other has the even more conflicting loadout of multimeltas and a thudd gun.
So there is absolutely no reason for anyone to use Hell Blades and Plague Drones because Heldrake is still king? You better warn all the people planning to buy some in the Army List forum.
Which has what to do with the Heldrake being better? Sometimes people want to run something different or just like the model, it also doesn't necessarily mean the other units are *bad*, but with the Heldrake there as it currently stands, they're not taking them just for power. The Blight Drones are a bit different, they're available to Daemons, not just CSM's, but again, they're less well armored than a Heldrake, and have fewer HP's, don't get Vector strikes, don't have the Daemonforge ability, and aren't ignoring cover saves on Marines, and they cost almost as much as a Heldrake.
You see people run Falcons or IG heavy weapons squads or CC dreads or Vypers sometime too, even though there are better options. Not everyone takes things just for their power.
Filch wrote:
Great for you, you have much more disposable income than me to collect FW models frivolously for thematic armies.
Ok, so instead of actually accepting the argument that people take FW units for something other than raw power or just better looking replacements for existing units, you just resort to a personal attack. Sweet.
That collection is also something built up over many years, and if you're paying retail prices for GW now, you can afford most of those units I mentioned. Not everyone just builds razor edged competitive armies. Otherwise all we'd be seeing are Centstars, Wave Serpent fleets, Flyrant spam, and the like.
But I guess having income over 8 years to build a DKoK army over time is bad
Filch wrote: Like I said, I do not care about the models collecting dust.
I've used everything but the Nightwing and Hades drills within the last month.
But sure, go ahead, keep deflecting...
Because you take the best of the best from the Core Codex army and then add the best of the best from a FW supplement and you fight an army that only uses the Core Codex army with out anything else, which is more likely to win?
For most armies, probably a tossup. CSM's are a bit different, their codex has a multitude of gaps which FW helps cover some (and is more an issue with the CSM book being painfully underwhelming and largely having been so since 2007), but for say, Eldar or Space Marines? Most power builds aren't going to bother with FW.
That said, I'm assuming you're ignoring multiple detachments, dataslates, formations, and allies for a reason? These are all going to result in far more abuse and shennanigans than anything from FW.
Sicaran rapid tracking stops targets from taking jink saves which really helps a CSM army kill Wave Serpents or what ever zooms around with jink saves.
And they cost a lot more than the pure codex alternative, Predators, and cost as much as a kitted Wave Serpent before giving the Sicaran any upgrades.
Malefic Ammunition gives hb some teeth.
For an absolutely ridiculous price premium, sure. Again, nobody considers these anything even remotely resembling a competitive option. They're quite possibly the most hilariously overcosted upgrade in the game.
Typhons have a large blast Str 10 Ap1 Cannon that ignores cover even if you do not roll a 6 like Str D weapons.
And yet they don't inflict multiple wounds, don't auto-pen, can't potentially ignore Invul saves, etc. It gets to throw out one shot per turn, with a not inconsiderable chance of a whiff. Other superheavies available via other books like Escalation do much the same thing. An Imperial Guard Hellhammer for example has an almost identical main gun (shorter stationary range, longer mobile range) and nobody is running out and buying those hand-over-fist.
Oh but did you not say the price for models from GW are equal to FW? Now you are trying to tell me FW maybe a bit more expensive because they have a smaller supply than GW?
They're equalizing and many units overlap currently (particularly infantry), but when there is a difference, the explanation I gave is why. I'm not sure why that was particularly hard to get.
Let me fill you in, I have been fighting other armies without the aid of using any Forge World units myself. Some times I get lucky and destroy their FW model and I scrape out a small victory grabbing just 1 point after they delete 80% of my army. Or I lose horribly when I fail to hurt that FW unit as the rest of his army blast mine away.
And exactly which FW units are *so* much more amazingly powerful than the most powerful Codex units that do this?
So there is absolutely no reason for anyone to use Hell Blades and Plague Drones because Heldrake is still king? You better warn all the people planning to buy some in the Army List forum.
Which has what to do with the Heldrake being better? Sometimes people want to run something different or just like the model, it also doesn't necessarily mean the other units are *bad*, but with the Heldrake there as it currently stands, they're not taking them just for power. The Blight Drones are a bit different, they're available to Daemons, not just CSM's, but again, they're less well armored than a Heldrake, and have fewer HP's, don't get Vector strikes, don't have the Daemonforge ability, and aren't ignoring cover saves on Marines, and they cost almost as much as a Heldrake.
You see people run Falcons or IG heavy weapons squads or CC dreads or Vypers sometime too, even though there are better options. Not everyone takes things just for their power.
I'm still confused at the folks that don't like the Hell Blade. Six twin-linked autocannon shots on an outflanking Flyer for the cost of a Wave Serpent. Fragile, doomed if the other guy's got much AA, but it'll wreck a lot of stuff when it hits.
It's not a bad unit, I like it, it's powerful but fragile and looks cool, it's reasonably balanced and functional. The Heldrake just offers such a powerful capability that can't be replicated even by FW units effectively, and is still super solid even when kitted with the autocannon, and has so much more survivability that it's likely to make far more attack runs.
AnomanderRake wrote: I'm still confused at the folks that don't like the Hell Blade. Six twin-linked autocannon shots on an outflanking Flyer for the cost of a Wave Serpent. Fragile, doomed if the other guy's got much AA, but it'll wreck a lot of stuff when it hits.
Bolded the answer to your question. The Hell Blade isn't as terrible as it used to be, but it's incredibly fragile and dies almost instantly against any AA that gets a chance to shoot at it. And if your opponent brought any AA fortifications with interceptor guns they have a pretty good chance of killing it as soon as it arrives. That's just not consistent enough to justify spending 130 points.
Lynx before the nerf (doesn't really count since the nerf made it a lot more reasonable), Land Raider Achilles (which remains badly designed), Revenant (which has been pumped a hundred points since it was really silly). Those are the ones that I can think of off the top of my head, any other examples are internal balance rather than external OP-ness (the Forge World Predators are up and better than their standard counterparts even if they're not broken per se, the Vampire is literally a Thunderhawk only better...)
Revenant doesn't count anymore tbh. Since the strength D nerf it's nothing like the monster it was in v6 at 800 points.
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Frozen Ocean wrote: I think the point being made with the example of the Transcendent C'tan is that Games Workshop main are far worse at doing what people accuse of Forge World, that being the creation of overpowered superheavies/gargantuans.
To me, tCtan is FW. As is anything apocalypse or stronghold assault.
To some people, even IK are FW.
Why ? because only a few years ago, that was called FW territory.
morgoth wrote: To me, tCtan is FW. As is anything apocalypse or stronghold assault.
To some people, even IK are FW.
Why ? because only a few years ago, that was called FW territory.
So your definition of FW rules is "anything I decide to call FW, regardless of whether anyone working under the FW brand had anything to do with it"? I understand that your bizarre definition makes it easier to "justify" your complaints about FW rules, but it's not really a constructive one when you're discussing the subject with other people.
Why Yes, Are there LORDS OF WAR models in the Chaos Space Marine Codex? I am talking about Fellblades, Typhon, Thunderhawk Gunship, Warhound Titans, Reaver titans, Brass Scorpions 666 pt Daemons! All of these are not in the core CSM codex! If you only limit yourself to CSM core codex and fight some one with IA13 then you are seriously handicapping yourself as you are just bringing lascannons oh vehicles and meltas on marines while trying to fight Strength D weaponry! What am I to do? Ally Imperial Knights? That would be the go to answer to fight super heavies if the codex lacked super heavies.
You do realize that the rules for the Thunderhawk, Reaver, and Warhound are all written by GW, as well as the rules allowing them in normal games came from GW right? All FW did to the Reaver and Warhound is add some god specific daemonic gifts. Otherwise FW just casts the resin.
When FW alone wrote rules for superheavies, they weren't allowed in normal games, GW allowed those. That said, a Fellblade or Baneblade isn't going to dominate a game much more than say, a trio of Leman Russ tanks will.
You're playing with semantics.
Besides, when FW alone wrote rules, many of them were completely fethed up for at least one round or two, because FW aims worse than GW for point costing.
Mozzyfuzzy wrote: I'm still waiting for the 5man mk4 tactical squad I bought to wipe out 80% of my opponents army.
LOLZ! Welcome to the plot of Space Marine, the game!
I dont think i was too clear when I wrote my message hastily. Nowadays you can have many Imperial Knights. Back 5 years ago, I had to fight real super heavies with just melta guns and lascannons and maybe a powerfist with my starting army as I had no super heavies of my own. The super heavies was the wedge that drove into my army while the rest of the enemy army chewed through everything else. Because that baneblade or that titan or revenant or what ever was at the very front coming at me, I had no choice but to shoot all my powerful guns at it. The rest of the enemy army was free to shoot or charge what ever was left over. Thats all the game was because objectives mattered little when you get tabled. Also charging units get their full charging distance back then.
After several of these games where they bum rush me with a super heavy I come to realize, I am not going to win unless I have one of my own. So I checked my CSM codex. Why isn't there a super heavy in there? They told me i have to buy a FW book and that FW sells the unit. I said forget that after seeing their prices and I put wh40k on hold. I come back to the game in 6th ed with the release of the new CSM codex. I thought this time it will be different. NOPE its the same thing! Now you dont have to use super heavies as the wedge to drive into the enemy catching all the fire.
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The Imperial Answer wrote: Weren't most of the Super-Heavy rules and point costs meant for apoc games originally ?
I think so but I did not know that when I first started out and my opponents kindly asking me, "You dont mind me using this forgeworld model do you?"
"OMG its so big and awesome! Will it fit on the table?"
Filch wrote: Back 5 years ago, I had to fight real super heavies with just melta guns and lascannons and maybe a powerfist with my starting army as I had no super heavies of my own.
So because 5 years ago your opponents cheated (you couldn't use superheavies in "normal" games, they were Apocalypse-only) FW rules are bad?
Why Yes, Are there LORDS OF WAR models in the Chaos Space Marine Codex? I am talking about Fellblades, Typhon, Thunderhawk Gunship, Warhound Titans, Reaver titans, Brass Scorpions 666 pt Daemons! All of these are not in the core CSM codex! If you only limit yourself to CSM core codex and fight some one with IA13 then you are seriously handicapping yourself as you are just bringing lascannons oh vehicles and meltas on marines while trying to fight Strength D weaponry! What am I to do? Ally Imperial Knights? That would be the go to answer to fight super heavies if the codex lacked super heavies.
You do realize that the rules for the Thunderhawk, Reaver, and Warhound are all written by GW, as well as the rules allowing them in normal games came from GW right? All FW did to the Reaver and Warhound is add some god specific daemonic gifts. Otherwise FW just casts the resin.
When FW alone wrote rules for superheavies, they weren't allowed in normal games, GW allowed those. That said, a Fellblade or Baneblade isn't going to dominate a game much more than say, a trio of Leman Russ tanks will.
You're playing with semantics.
Says the poster who just stated they consider Stronghold Assault, Apocalypse, and Escalation to be Forgeworld publications, despite Forgeworld not having a single thing to do with them and being released by GW's core design studio and sold through GW's core sales channel and not available for purchase through FW's website.
And it's not semantics, when all FW does is cast the models, having nothing to do with the rules, blaming them for any rules issues is rather silly.
Besides, when FW alone wrote rules, many of them were completely fethed up for at least one round or two, because FW aims worse than GW for point costing.
FW's original costing for the Reaver was higher than it is now, as it was for just about everything like Baneblades and Warhounds and...everything I can think of off the top of my head. As noted earlier, the Turbolaser that makes the Warhound so hated was originally S9 AP2 small blast, not a 5" D strength template, and the Warhound with any configuration of weapons was more expensive than it is now.
Hell, we can even look at non-superheavy units. The Valkyrie had lower armor and a far higher pricetag when it was an FW unit (and there was no Vendetta), the Hydra was 200pts (and not squadronable), the Medusa (before GW removed it again for not having a plastic kit) got access to a very powerful AT shell under GW's rules, etc.
Mozzyfuzzy wrote: I'm still waiting for the 5man mk4 tactical squad I bought to wipe out 80% of my opponents army.
LOLZ! Welcome to the plot of Space Marine, the game!
I dont think i was too clear when I wrote my message hastily. Nowadays you can have many Imperial Knights. Back 5 years ago, I had to fight real super heavies with just melta guns and lascannons and maybe a powerfist with my starting army as I had no super heavies of my own. The super heavies was the wedge that drove into my army while the rest of the enemy army chewed through everything else. Because that baneblade or that titan or revenant or what ever was at the very front coming at me, I had no choice but to shoot all my powerful guns at it. The rest of the enemy army was free to shoot or charge what ever was left over. Thats all the game was because objectives mattered little when you get tabled. Also charging units get their full charging distance back then.
After several of these games where they bum rush me with a super heavy I come to realize, I am not going to win unless I have one of my own. So I checked my CSM codex. Why isn't there a super heavy in there? They told me i have to buy a FW book and that FW sells the unit. I said forget that after seeing their prices and I put wh40k on hold. I come back to the game in 6th ed with the release of the new CSM codex. I thought this time it will be different. NOPE its the same thing! Now you dont have to use super heavies as the wedge to drive into the enemy catching all the fire.
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The Imperial Answer wrote: Weren't most of the Super-Heavy rules and point costs meant for apoc games originally ?
I think so but I did not know that when I first started out and my opponents kindly asking me, "You dont mind me using this forgeworld model do you?"
"OMG its so big and awesome! Will it fit on the table?"
Mozzyfuzzy wrote: I'm still waiting for the 5man mk4 tactical squad I bought to wipe out 80% of my opponents army.
LOLZ! Welcome to the plot of Space Marine, the game!
I dont think i was too clear when I wrote my message hastily. Nowadays you can have many Imperial Knights. Back 5 years ago, I had to fight real super heavies with just melta guns and lascannons and maybe a powerfist with my starting army as I had no super heavies of my own. The super heavies was the wedge that drove into my army while the rest of the enemy army chewed through everything else. Because that baneblade or that titan or revenant or what ever was at the very front coming at me, I had no choice but to shoot all my powerful guns at it. The rest of the enemy army was free to shoot or charge what ever was left over. Thats all the game was because objectives mattered little when you get tabled. Also charging units get their full charging distance back then.
After several of these games where they bum rush me with a super heavy I come to realize, I am not going to win unless I have one of my own. So I checked my CSM codex. Why isn't there a super heavy in there? They told me i have to buy a FW book and that FW sells the unit. I said forget that after seeing their prices and I put wh40k on hold. I come back to the game in 6th ed with the release of the new CSM codex. I thought this time it will be different. NOPE its the same thing! Now you dont have to use super heavies as the wedge to drive into the enemy catching all the fire.
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The Imperial Answer wrote: Weren't most of the Super-Heavy rules and point costs meant for apoc games originally ?
I think so but I did not know that when I first started out and my opponents kindly asking me, "You dont mind me using this forgeworld model do you?"
"OMG its so big and awesome! Will it fit on the table?"
So if I am picking up what you are putting down, your issue with FW is that you told people it was alright for them to use their Super Heavies in a standard game and then were surprised when you couldn't take them down? You were playing in the days when you could only get that stuff in Apoc games, of course you'd have issues bringing them down. It should have been no reason to put the hobby on hold, you just tell the opponents that it was fun the first couple of times but now you'd like to go back to regular games. Of course these days Super Heavies are allowed in normal games.
Tell you what, that's what my issue with the game is these days, Vehicle Squadrons and (the concept of, since I only really play with friends these days) Super Heavies in normal games. I had more fun personally when regular games didn't feel like Apoc. Not to say I had no fun with Apoc, it was a blast when that was what I set out to play.
Back to Super Heavies, and the in ability to pop them. I had a single MoT Power Fist Terminator kill a Shadow Sword 2k 2v2 game. Course that Terminator got the most freaking ridiculously lucky rolls that whole game, which always seemed to happen for him in games, he's just That Model.
To me, tCtan is FW. As is anything apocalypse or stronghold assault.
To some people, even IK are FW.
Why ? because only a few years ago, that was called FW territory.
Im pretty sure a few years ago there was no such thing as a tCtan from FW, that was a GW original, and as for the IK, the only ones I remember ever seeing were ones with home rules based on the fluff that some GW Employees allowed into a couple Apoc Games because everyone playing thought it would be cool to have on the field.
morgoth wrote: To me, tCtan is FW. As is anything apocalypse or stronghold assault.
To some people, even IK are FW.
Why ? because only a few years ago, that was called FW territory.
Why am I not surprised?
You can't complain about FW and in the same thread tell us you consider GW-models to be from Forgeworld.
That is just.. sigh!
Most people I've met consider everything that's beyond the BRB to be FW / Apoc / Whatnot Territory.
Many even believe that IK have no place in a normal 40K game.
Why do you refuse to acknowledge that such an opinion represents a large share of the gaming community ?
Once you realize that, you'll be able to see why they have an issue with FW and anything obscure really, even though it's not related to FW per se.
HH is FW for example, and there are things in HH that are just ridiculously overpowered compared to regular 40K, when a 40K player hears of those things he thinks "WTF is FW thinking ?", and he's right.
And yes, it's not the same as 40K intended FW stuff, etc. but basically, that's how most people who refuse FW think, so you might as well try and understand them.
Then, you will be able to think of a good way to help them see the light, instead of continuing this pointless argument every time it comes up.
Most people I've met consider everything that's beyond the BRB to be FW / Apoc / Whatnot Territory.
Many even believe that IK have no place in a normal 40K game.
Why do you refuse to acknowledge that such an opinion represents a large share of the gaming community ?
Once you realize that, you'll be able to see why they have an issue with FW and anything obscure really, even though it's not related to FW per se.
HH is FW for example, and there are things in HH that are just ridiculously overpowered compared to regular 40K, when a 40K player hears of those things he thinks "WTF is FW thinking ?", and he's right.
And yes, it's not the same as 40K intended FW stuff, etc. but basically, that's how most people who refuse FW think, so you might as well try and understand them.
First off that opinion is being acknowledged, we are just pointing out that it is objectively wrong. Apoc, Escalation they are all stamped with the GW logo and only the GW logo, the FW logo is no where to be seen on those things. So no, we don't see why they would have an issue with FW and they are wrong to have one for things GW publishes.
What in the HH is over powered? The two Plasma Pistol Moritat? Cause they nerfed that. The expensive but fun and fluffy legion specific units? As I said they are expensive and several aren't really that great. 3 Sicarans in an army? I can see that, they are pretty good but still expensive. The Primarchs? Well when they started getting rules LoW were something you needed permission to use, you can again thank GW for allowing that.
Ok..people, just think for a moment..this is a game..not high stakes Vegas poker..the only thing you are gambling in gaming with something you have never played against before is your time..but thats a gamble anytime you play anyone new..regardless of what forces or toys..or models or what ever you want to call them they bring. The person could be TFG..or a WAACTFG...or he could be a fun person and joy to be around..and enjoy their scent...lol.
Forgeworld is the same..so long as they have rules with them for the models its game on as far as I am concerned..and the worst that could happen is..OMG..that unit is kinda crazy/powerful/crappy etc..and you can remember that for a future game...if there are current rules..for me its no different then a codex I don't know by rote or the next iteration of a codex I did.
If someone shows up with a new bit of resin happiness and they want to try it out..I am more than happy to let them...its a game..you don't have to always win, and sometimes new stuff is fun..its not the toys..and the dice that make a good game..its who you play against.
And since everyone likes to cite their negative experiences with the forgeworld mob..I will put my positive ones.
Before I indulged in FW cool stuff..I played all manner of players and for the majority..anyone that plonked a FW model on the table and had the rules for it was a fun opponent..with fluffy bunny army lists..etc.
See my positive is just as valid as anyone's negatives..it just seems people don't like to try new stuff..or listen to horror stories with out sprinkling any salt on it.
Some legions just get Infiltrate for the whole army. Plus other crazy stuff. Plus glory whatever thingy. Plus crazy reroll everything (go first, side, seize).
That makes even WTFstar Coteaz look not that good.
Before I indulged in FW cool stuff..I played all manner of players and for the majority..anyone that plonked a FW model on the table and had the rules for it was a fun opponent..with fluffy bunny army lists..etc.
See my positive is just as valid as anyone's negatives..it just seems people don't like to try new stuff..or listen to horror stories with out sprinkling any salt on it.
I love seeing new stuff tbh. And FW models are awesome. And I don't mind playing HH armies either.
I'm just here to help the blind FW defenders see why their opponents have a point
Forgeworld even advises that 30k is not balanced/designed to be played against 40k.
Q: Are the armies and units in the Horus Heresy books by Forge World meant to be used in
games against regular Codex armies, such as say Grey Knights or Orks?
A: While Forge World’s on-going range of Horus Heresy books and their game content are all
designed to use and be compatible with the Warhammer 40,000 rules, they have been fine-tuned and
focused on playing battles in the milieu of the Horus Heresy rather than in conjunction with the
Codexes representing warfare in the 41st Millennium, and this will remain the case.
Some legions just get Infiltrate for the whole army.
Raven Guard get Infiltrate on basic Infantry Models, no Jump Packs or Termintors. Alpha Legion have other things that they can take as well. Infiltrate can be a double edged sword, sure you can get closer, but then you know what you are closer and can get killed easier. Infiltrate into the objective yeah thats good, but so many things can dislodge you.
morgoth wrote: Plus crazy reroll everything (go first, side, seize).
You realize that lots of things out side of the HH Armies get that.
And like
TheAvengingKnee wrote: Forgeworld even advises that 30k is not balanced/designed to be played against 40k.
Q: Are the armies and units in the Horus Heresy books by Forge World meant to be used in
games against regular Codex armies, such as say Grey Knights or Orks?
A: While Forge World’s on-going range of Horus Heresy books and their game content are all
designed to use and be compatible with the Warhammer 40,000 rules, they have been fine-tuned and
focused on playing battles in the milieu of the Horus Heresy rather than in conjunction with the
Codexes representing warfare in the 41st Millennium, and this will remain the case.
Says, HH isn't really geared for fighting 40k Armies. Though I'm sure Eldar can still hold their own against them.
There are three basic lines of argument against Forge World
1) I don't know what the rules are.
This falls apart because players play against rules they haven't seen all the time. It happens every time a new codex is released, it happens whenever a new player with an army that hasn't been in your meta shows up, etc...
2) The rules are broken.
Yes, there are some individual models which are broken. But no more than models in codices are, even the most OP forge world model rarely compares to the latest codex cheese.
On top of this, the vast majority of Forge World rules are the opposite of broken. They're sub-par or just average. But they do add variety to many codices that are otherwise lacking. Forge World actually does a better job of balancing things than the main rule writers. Especially since they go through several iterations of rules before they get published(their experimental rules are available for free download. Free? From GW? Madness!)
3) Forge World isn't GW.
Just flat out wrong. Look at the little copyright declarations on any of their products, particularly the little baggies. It says "Copyright Games Workship Limited... ...Forge World, the Forge World logo are either registered, TM, and/or Copyright of Games Workshop Limited"
morgoth wrote: Most people I've met consider everything that's beyond the BRB to be FW / Apoc / Whatnot Territory.
Many even believe that IK have no place in a normal 40K game.
Why do you refuse to acknowledge that such an opinion represents a large share of the gaming community ?
Once you realize that, you'll be able to see why they have an issue with FW and anything obscure really, even though it's not related to FW per se.
Saying the Transcendent C'tan is from Forgeworld is just stupid.
Sorry, there is no other way to say it.
HH is FW for example, and there are things in HH that are just ridiculously overpowered compared to regular 40K, when a 40K player hears of those things he thinks "WTF is FW thinking ?", and he's right.
And there are things in WHFB that is overpowered compared to regular 40K.
Why compare a game that is not 40k with 40k?
And yes, it's not the same as 40K intended FW stuff, etc. but basically, that's how most people who refuse FW think, so you might as well try and understand them.
Or we could educate them when they say dumb things like: "Void Shield Generators are from Forgeworld!".
Then, you will be able to think of a good way to help them see the light, instead of continuing this pointless argument every time it comes up.
There is an easy way to help them see the light: Let them read the rules of the thing you are going to field.
There is only a single overpowered thing from Necron-Forgeworld and that requires like half your army in a Pylon-deathstar.
It takes people a minute to compare a Tomb Stalker to any other MC in the game and realise how mediocre to bad it is.
Unfortunately some people managed to convince those people that "FW is pay to play".
As of 7th edition most FW rules have been officially sanctioned for use in their respective games by GW. No need for opponent permission or a ruling from a game organizer.
Personally I'm a fan of Forgeworld. I don't utilize them on as broad a scale as I used to but I still have a few units on hand to spice things up which is what I think FW does swimmingly. Contemptor Dreadnoughts, a Land Raider Prometheus, some Siege Assault Squads… nothing extreme but they help me achieve the themes and concepts that I'm aiming for in my various armies.
Yes, there are some individual models which are broken. But no more than models in codices are, even the most OP forge world model rarely compares to the latest codex cheese.
That's just wrong. Yes, tons of FW stuff is just way overcosted, but it also has the most undercosted things.
Way more than any model in any codex.
Even the most OPGW model cannot compare to a FW miscost, there have been several mentions, and miscosting is a mistake to be expected from a branch that has less time and money invested in rules as well as less play testing.
And non-standard models, which most people except FW fans associate with FW, like the tCtan, also tend to be more broken than any model in any codex.
And that's normal, because those units don't get more than 1% of the playtime of the other units, so any mistake in costing will be less obvious, last longer (as release cycles are longer on niche products...), etc.
Yes, there are some individual models which are broken. But no more than models in codices are, even the most OP forge world model rarely compares to the latest codex cheese.
That's just wrong. Yes, tons of FW stuff is just way overcosted, but it also has the most undercosted things.
Way more than any model in any codex.
Even the most OPGW model cannot compare to a FW miscost, there have been several mentions, and miscosting is a mistake to be expected from a branch that has less time and money invested in rules as well as less play testing.
And non-standard models, which most people except FW fans associate with FW, like the tCtan, also tend to be more broken than any model in any codex.
And that's normal, because those units don't get more than 1% of the playtime of the other units, so any mistake in costing will be less obvious, last longer (as release cycles are longer on niche products...), etc.
Most people?
So far you seem to be the only person uneducated enough to still associate the T-C'tan with Forgeworld, despite people telling him it's from Games Workshop itself.
People already proved that FW is nothing compared to the overpoweredness of GW.
Which by the way I am still waiting on an example.
morgoth wrote: Name one thing outside of the HH armies that gives you army wide infiltration.
Did I say that all Armies can get that? No, I said that two specific Armies can get them in the HH and its not a 'be all, end all'. Besides, Genestealers. Do you also have an issue with Army wide Scout and Deepstrike?
morgoth wrote: And non-standard models, which most people except FW fans associate with FW, like the tCtan, also tend to be more broken than any model in any codex.
And that's normal, because those units don't get more than 1% of the playtime of the other units, so any mistake in costing will be less obvious, last longer (as release cycles are longer on niche products...), etc.
If by most people you mean YOU, then yes I suppose you are right most people do associate a GW Model with GW rules sold by GW on the GW site and in GW Stores as a FW model.
It doesn't matter the details of what some FW things are overpowered, because for anything that may be in that territory, another one exists in a core codex.
The argument that FW is bad because of a few bad apples is a terrible one because the same logic could be applied to nearly any codex.
Further, using the HH stuff is really digging deep for any shred of support for a terrible argument; the writers have even clearly stated that 30k stuff is designed and balanced around other 30k stuff. While its quite possible and indeed mostly fine to pit 30k armies vs. 40k ones, the balance issues that crop up are a non-issue because the writers have expressly stated their intent was not to provide balanced 30k vs. 40k matchups.
I should also remind you that Morgoth also firmly believes the Wave Serpent is fine, and only earlier in this thread made the absurd statement that the T C'tan is a FW product, because Morgoth said so.
Name one thing outside of the HH armies that gives you army wide infiltration.
My Tyranid Genestealer army.
Oh, and my Ravenwing army pretty much has Scout on everything, does that count, too?
Pretty much and all is not the same thing, besides the Genestealer army is a bad joke, and the Ravenwing is "pretty much"
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Kangodo wrote: Most people?
So far you seem to be the only person uneducated enough to still associate the T-C'tan with Forgeworld, despite people telling him it's from Games Workshop itself.
People already proved that FW is nothing compared to the overpoweredness of GW.
T Ctan used to be Apocalypse only.
Apocalypse used to be FW only.
That was not so long ago, many people are still in that mindset.
People proved nothing, I gave examples of FW crazy that nobody could disprove.
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Blacksails wrote: The argument that FW is bad because of a few bad apples is a terrible one because the same logic could be applied to nearly any codex.
It's a terrible one, but it's still commonplace, because FW and anything non-standard 40K has always been part of the big unknown for some players.
FW is great, I own some, love it, play it - just trying to make the blind FW fanatics realize that some 40K players are against FW for tangible reasons.
If by most people you mean YOU, then yes I suppose you are right most people do associate a GW Model with GW rules sold by GW on the GW site and in GW Stores as a FW model.
I know it's hard to grasp, but can you try to realize that for many people, anything that is not part of codexes is one big pile of unknown stuff ?
Can you try to understand that anything beyond that is unknown / FW / Apoc territory and that they would toss it all together as the big unknown pile of FWWTF because they were in contact with some of it and it was truly fethed up ?
There is NOTHING wrong with Forgeworld units, especially with the recent books doing their best to balanced them as much as possible (for example the Experimental Rules and changes to several models). Its just another misconception that Forgeworld is "all powerful" when in fact it is underpowered in most situations as the books are starting to be geared more towards fluff, people just need to stop being scared to play something they haven't yet which is what I feel a lot of this hate stems from.
because they were in contact with some of it and it was truly fethed up ?
Like wave serpents and 2++ re-rollable saves?
I agree with you that some people (less and less now, but more so before) are afraid of the unknown and therefore do not try to include FW.
However if they actually looked at the FW rules, they would realise there is nothing in them that most codices can't do already.
That's just plain wrong, I've given several examples of things from FW that are just way worse than a Wave Serpent.
2++ Rerollable is an effect of combos and due to minimal table time, most FW combos are still undiscovered.
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gmaleron wrote: There is NOTHING wrong with Forgeworld units, especially with the recent books doing their best to balanced them as much as possible (for example the Experimental Rules and changes to several models). Its just another misconception that Forgeworld is "all powerful" when in fact it is underpowered in most situations as the books are starting to be geared more towards fluff, people just need to stop being scared to play something they haven't yet which is what I feel a lot of this hate stems from.
Except that the few costing mistakes that FW made were rather big and those are the models that were played and sold the most, and that's why people are afraid of it.
Sure, nowadays, the vast majority of FW is (way) overcosted and there are very few wildly undercosted things, but it's ridiculous to pretend that those don't exist.
I never said they do not exist, however there are just as many if not more in the standard 40k Codexs and to complain about the few that are now in the FW books with those in mind is redundant.
So wait, broken combos with legitimate codex units is ok, but imaginary undiscovered combos with FW is bad thus ban FW? Do you listen to yourself Morgoth?
Col. Dash wrote: So wait, broken combos with legitimate codex units is ok, but imaginary undiscovered combos with FW is bad thus ban FW? Do you listen to yourself Morgoth?
Broken combos or do you just mean invisibility? WS WK and Riptides? Really? What else is broken? Also who is saying that these things are okay? They aren't okay!
Col. Dash wrote: So wait, broken combos with legitimate codex units is ok, but imaginary undiscovered combos with FW is bad thus ban FW? Do you listen to yourself Morgoth?
Do you even read what I write ?
I said that first of all, FW had models more broken than GW on a per model basis.
And that second, FW combos as absurd as "2++ rerollable" are not talked about because FW is not being used.
In all likelihood, there are combos much more ridiculous available but you wouldn't know because there's like 5% of all 40K players who play forgeworld and there is almost no FW included competition, so no players to look actively for those combos.
Off-hand I can't think of any FW unit more unbalanced than the waveserpent (or riptides, or 2++ rerollable etc etc) except for perhaps necron pylon shenanigans (but you need to use codex stuff to make that work).
Your examples listed earlier were already debunked.
If FW are bad at pricing as you say, then I believe it would be in opposite direction: many of their rules seem too conservative with points and could use a reduction.
Let's use IA: Vol 2 as an example. Let's consider how many of the units people would want in a competitive list (some are obvious, others are open to debate, these are my opinions).
IA: Vol 2 has 38 different vehicles. Of these I would say only 2 are very competitive:
The sicaran and the fireraptor.
(And btw I disagree with you that the sicaran is more unbalanced than the waveserpent. Perhaps when it was 13/13/13 it might have been, but now it is 13/12/12 it is certainly less powerful.
Besides these two there are some good choices:
Achilles, Scorpius, Caestus, Repressor, Mk V Mortis, mortis contemptor.
So imo that's a total of 8/38 units that might find themselves in a competitive list.
Around three quarters of the book could do with a points reduction to improve balance and make them more viable picks.
In all likelihood, there are combos much more ridiculous available but you wouldn't know because there's like 5% of all 40K players who play forgeworld and there is almost no FW included competition, so no players to look actively for those combos.
This appears to be entirely speculation on your part. We use FW almost everygame, including FW army lists, and I can tell you that this is not true.
That's just plain wrong, I've given several examples of things from FW that are just way worse than a Wave Serpent.
And by several, you mean four, right? One of which wasn't actually a FW product, either in rules or model? The other three could hardly be called better than the Wave Serpent either.
Keep trying.
2++ Rerollable is an effect of combos and due to minimal table time, most FW combos are still undiscovered.
Hahaha, no.
Combos don't remain undiscovered for months or years. People figure this out in weeks, if not days. When you have the internet and forums and other boards, coupled with frequent tournaments across the globe, any new release is very quickly analyzed by hundreds, if not thousands of knowledgeable people. That information comes here, where more people pick at it, and before you know it, the combos are figured out.
The broken combos in FW that don't exist are because they just don't exist, not because they haven't been discovered.
Regardless, I don't know why you're even arguing this, seeing as you admitted earlier you like FW.
Pretty much and all is not the same thing, besides the Genestealer army is a bad joke, and the Ravenwing is "pretty much"
It being a joke doesn't matter, you asked for an example, he provided one.
morgoth wrote: T Ctan used to be Apocalypse only. Apocalypse used to be FW only.
That was not so long ago, many people are still in that mindset.
People proved nothing, I gave examples of FW crazy that nobody could disprove.
You realize that the T Ctan came out well after Apoc became a GW thing right? And lets not forget that Apoc hasn't been a FW thing in a long time, since 2007, which by the way was 4th Edition. If these 'people' want to cling to an outdated near eight year old thought process I'm not gonna give them any leeway.
morgoth wrote: It's a terrible one, but it's still commonplace, because FW and anything non-standard 40K has always been part of the big unknown for some players.
FW is great, I own some, love it, play it - just trying to make the blind FW fanatics realize that some 40K players are against FW for tangible reasons.
I fail to see how anything sold by GW is unknown for players when evertime they go to the store or the website they will be getting slapped in the face by it. Its GW, they market. Alot.
Secondly I don't think tangible is the word you are looking for. Maybe logical, but the reasons people don't want it are hardly logical. And if anything your defense has been more blind that the so called "FW Fanatics".
I know it's hard to grasp, but can you try to realize that for many people, anything that is not part of codexes is one big pile of unknown stuff ?
Can you try to understand that anything beyond that is unknown / FW / Apoc territory and that they would toss it all together as the big unknown pile of FWWTF because they were in contact with some of it and it was truly fethed up ?
Im not saying its not unknown, I am saying that your excuse that "if its unknown it's FW is wrong". I have never met anyone in my years of gaming where if I went up to them and had a conversation about the game, and we starting talking about this cool new model and its rules, and how it's in one of the GW books, none of them would go "No that's FW its not in the Codex." They would ask what Apoc Datasheet it was or what Apoc book its in.
So I will understand that things can be unknown, that fact I wont dispute. I have and will continue to dispute people lumping everything outside of the Codex into FW.
There are way more broken and "OP" units and rules in the default 40k ruleset than there is in the Forgeworld catalogue.
In fact offhand I dont know of any units from forgeworld that are considered overpowered... FW have a habit of erring on the high side when they put out their points costs. Playing with FW units is more often a disadvantage, but you get the benefit of using cool different models and some fun combinations (eg. Dread Mob).
At this point Morgoth you need to pick an arguement, you can't justify "FW is Bad" and then use core GW lords of war, fortifications and codex's to justify it. It's like saying "I hate apples because oranges suck", if you want to strip out Lord of War, Fortifications, IK Codex's and so on and so forth there is absolutely nothing wrong with doing so, it's called playing 5th ed.
However your arguements against forgeworld units seem to be based on very poorly informed facts, or reviewing the power of an item without the assosiated points cost.
Not everyone knows every GW codex, similary not everyone knows every FW rules, however a decent opponent brings their dex and FW book to a game so that their oppponent can review the items in use pre-game.
People proved nothing, I gave examples of FW crazy that nobody could disprove.
What were those things? The Special Ammo for CSM Predators repeatedly stated to be over Costed? The Sicarian Battle Tank, which is expensive, both money and points wise and also lacks the Transport Abilities of the Wave Serpent. The TCtan, which isn't FW all together? The Klaw Stompa?
koooaei wrote: I don't mind FW itself. But 2 out of 2 people i've played using forgeworld have been rather TFG.
For example, 1 guy fielded a renegade artillery list with some super-heavy plasma-tank and a void-shield generator (stronghold assault, i guess) against my orks. I asked him to explain how his stuff works as i don't own neither stronghold assault, nor don't know the rules for renegades and he told me void-shields are av12 4 hp for units within 12' radius. I asked: "Any units?" And he told: "Yes, any units".
During deployment he placed a large fortress partially in ruins and partially in the woods even though it's against the rules - and deployed all his artillery behind it. I thought - no big deal, it's a friendly game after all.
Than the game went on and i rushed towards the void shields and happened to have a few units underneath it. Than he shot and i claimed av12 from void shields. He told me it ain't working like this. But i've asked him to read the rules for me 'out of the book' as i've come to a conclusion that void shields work on any unit underneath it based on what he had told me. He got pissed off and claimed it's complete nonscence and started bitching about it. In the meanwhile i've googled bout the void shields and found a discussion here on dakka where people also claimed void shields work on any model friend or foe. The guy went hulk and told me that everyone's stupid and that i should have my own books and so on. Got to end the game turn 2.
Another guy Fielded 2 riptides list in a 1250 casual match - i've specifically stated beforehand it's gona be an extremely casual fluffy game. 1 was a forgeworld riptide with experimental rules - the one with 2 blasts which he told were ap3. He backed them up with tetras, a buffmander he joined to a riptide (6-th edition) and got a crysis suit team + a min squad of firewarriors and a min squad of vespids (to go extremely casual, i guess). My list was: Tzeench Apostle with gift, Tzeench footslogging sorc with gift, 2 large units of cultists, 2 squads of 10 possessed with 2 gifts each and a squad of 1000 sons with gift in a rhino.
Apostle rolled crussader, possessed champ rolled shrowded, others rolled useless stuff. Sorc got endurance. So, i've joined up apostle, sorc and possessed with shrowded, buffed them with endurance and launched them on one flank. Second possessed squad rushed the other flank. He bunched up and poured fire. Eventually, he killed off everything but a squad of cultists that were hiding behind blos with a relic. And he started bitching about...basically everything. About how i roll invulnerable and fnp saves. About how daemon possessed are broken (!), about how sorc with force weapons and endurance is broken and so on, and so forth.
So, it's probably anecdotal evidence but i don't want to play against fw guyz anymore
First let me say I own a complete death korps of krieg guard army that I use with the main rulebook for rules. The models are lovely, but I have rarely ever seen anyone who wants to play forgeworld lists and rules play anything fluffy or cool just to play it. Everyone I see playing forgeworld is just like the example above that tau guy who plays ravr'na, the sm cheese lists playing the red scorpion guy with a 2+ save for his army, etc etc. most people don't play forgeworld cause it's fluffy they play it for advantage. Back in the day every krieg list use to have multiple engineers with the drill transport. It's still just as fluffy and NO ONE plays it because it's no longer broken regarding the rules. And just like the above poster that's the experience I have playing against players who play using forgeworld rules. It's not the models that bother me it's the rules. And for those that claim well 40k is just as broken without forgeworld. No it isn't. Right now barring unbound which no one plays or some lord of war options which tend to be agreed upon before hand and even less people own cause they are usually like $500 dollar forgeworld models and if you use the victory point rules regarding them makes them less winnable but still not really fun to play against the rules are getting much better in basic 40k. Every army after necrons will be updated to 6th/7th. No armies are arguably complete rubbish. And the only widely considered overpowered armies are eldar spam and space marine centurion Death Stars.
Saying all the above I still have no issues with forgeworld. They just need to update thier rules quicker. They are woefully behind right now. And in tournament formats they can be played competitively with enough rules and model limitations to make it fair without the cheese. Look to the Las Vegas open as an example of how the abuse can be limited and forgeworld is fun and playable. I honestly think if necrons receive thier update at the end of January and is usable in LVO that tournament and this year will a a fairly decent year for multiple armies to be competitive. I cant really say right now which army will win LVO. Tyranids? Elder? Centurion star? Bike star? And really other then that red scorpion character non of these are heavily influenced by forgeworld.
Tannhauser42 wrote: I don't think Peregrine has posted in awhile, and if Peregrine has given up on someone in a Forgeworld thread, that is very telling.
You haven't said Peregrine's name three times, which is necessary to summon our feathered friend.
Let's be honest, just saying "forgeworld" is waaaaay too wide of a net, there's tons of FW models, some are absolutely trash in terms of rules, and some are great. But.... so are normal tabletop units? Riptides, Wave Serpents, perma-invisible be'lakor. Copious amounts of "Eh" on this whole thing.
Also, painful amounts of anecdotal evidence condemning "that guy with fw models". There's probably at least as many "that guy"s with GW models.
The opinion I'm trying to present and make the FW fanatic camp understand is that anti-FW people have decent reasons to be against the approach of automatically allowing FW units in standard games.
The problem is you haven't shown anything that's actually from FW that's anything like the crazy imbalanced stuff you can do without FW, and have tried to use things like Void Shield Generators that FW has nothing to do with to justify that.
Yes we know people think FW is abuseable and crazy, but there's relatitvely little to actually justify that.
Even when there possibly is, GW seems determined to top it. Nobody cared about IG Thudd Guns for instance until mid 6th edition, then people realized that with allies and lots of HQ support, they could make them very scary. Well, GW said "to hell with that" and just came out with the Wyvern that did the same thing, but on a mobile tank chassis and without the need for allied psyker support because it got Twin Linked and Ignores Cover as a freebie.
The opinion I'm trying to present and make the FW fanatic camp understand is that anti-FW people have decent reasons to be against the approach of automatically allowing FW units in standard games.
I personally, love Forge World models on the tabletop. Expands the 40k universe a great deal IMO. Plus there's also this.. (pics by bladeiai ok there's some 3rd party stuff on too, but whatever)
morgoth wrote: The opinion I'm trying to present and make the FW fanatic camp understand is that anti-FW people have decent reasons to be against the approach of automatically allowing FW units in standard games.
If your "decent reasons" include things like units FW had nothing to do with then no, you aren't doing a very good job of providing decent reasons. All that does is portray the anti-FW crowd as the kind of rabid zealots who would scream about how overpowered the new space marine codex is because FFG made the TIE phantom too powerful in X-Wing.
morgoth wrote: The opinion I'm trying to present and make the FW fanatic camp understand is that anti-FW people have decent reasons to be against the approach of automatically allowing FW units in standard games.
If your "decent reasons" include things like units FW had nothing to do with then no, you aren't doing a very good job of providing decent reasons. All that does is portray the anti-FW crowd as the kind of rabid zealots who would scream about how overpowered the new space marine codex is because FFG made the TIE phantom too powerful in X-Wing.
morgoth wrote: The opinion I'm trying to present and make the FW fanatic camp understand is that anti-FW people have decent reasons to be against the approach of automatically allowing FW units in standard games.
If your "decent reasons" include things like units FW had nothing to do with then no, you aren't doing a very good job of providing decent reasons. All that does is portray the anti-FW crowd as the kind of rabid zealots who would scream about how overpowered the new space marine codex is because FFG made the TIE phantom too powerful in X-Wing.
People aren't actually doing that are they?
One person is:
morgoth wrote: To me, tCtan is FW. As is anything apocalypse or stronghold assault.
morgoth wrote: Void Shield Generator. For one hundred points, you get 3 void shields that shield anything within 12", can be hidden behind another (even wrecked) generator, etc.
AP2 large/massive blast weapons which ignore cover
and the fact that it's nigh on impossible to keep up to date with the most current rules.
If FW kept a record of where to find the most current rules for each unit on their site, AND did 7th Ed FAQs for all their stuff I would be all for them, everywhere. Minus the units that shoot weapons as above.
AP2 large/massive blast weapons which ignore cover
If the blast is that powerful its supposed to make a mockery of cover most of the time. I thought the blast simulated it exploding in mid-air over said cover and sweeping down on the target.
Also since forgeworld makes most of the Lords of War which are powerful units it makes sense for them to have a lot of large blasts associated with their units. You can expect nothing less from a Titan's main weapons or a Kill-Bursta's belly cannon.
Well, IA13 and I think the other IA books expressly state that they are an "expansion" for WH40k so I personally don't see the issue. Juts to be treated like any other expansion.
Back in the day every krieg list use to have multiple engineers with the drill transport. It's still just as fluffy and NO ONE plays it because it's no longer broken regarding the rules.
People aren't playing the Hades Drill because it's not broken. People aren't using it because it's one of the worst transports in the game. You deepstrike it, it gets one chance to melta-something off the table (if you hit another unit) which most likely won't outright destroy whatever it's hitting, and then it takes a mishap test on -2, which means that it has a 50% of destroying itself and every attached Combat Engineer unit. Make it a bit more like the Mawloc or simply state that it moves other unit out of the way and I'd play it.
OnT: I love playing against most Forgeworld units, as I personally collect DKoK and Minotaurs. However, as the former army is quite bad, I tend to find that I have to rely in some "broken" units in order to be competitive with my friends. But then again, if I find a list that wins 75%+ of all games I stop playing it, so I guess I can't be counted as a WAAC-player.
AlexRae wrote: AP2 large/massive blast weapons which ignore cover
Kind of like the "main GW" units with those weapons?
Yeh I disagree with that in general in a sub 2000pt game. Units which are designed to remove large swathes of the enemy off the table from afar only fit in Apocalypse sized games because they speed up proceedings.
So when it comes to units in 40k that have those sort of weapons, I would generally avoid events that allow them on Super Heavy platforms.
Other than that Forgeworld is super cool. Even if it does make Eldar even more broken than they are already with their Hornets
AlexRae wrote: AP2 large/massive blast weapons which ignore cover
Kind of like the "main GW" units with those weapons?
Yeh I disagree with that in general in a sub 2000pt game. Units which are designed to remove large swathes of the enemy off the table from afar only fit in Apocalypse sized games because they speed up proceedings.
So when it comes to units in 40k that have those sort of weapons, I would generally avoid events that allow them on Super Heavy platforms.
Other than that Forgeworld is super cool. Even if it does make Eldar even more broken than they are already with their Hornets
As disclosure, I have a bit of FW stuff as well as a couple superheavies (Lynx, etc.).
Yes, there are some FW units that should only be in Apoc. The Typhon is a good example. A S10 AP1 large blast that ignores cover is balanced by its short range of 24" (if it moves) and 48" (if it doesn't). That is short range for Apoc game where there are units that have ranges of 72" up to 120" and then unlimited (IIRC). In a regular tabletop game, a Typhon can pretty much hit the entire table since it should only need to pivot. Many other superheavies have AP7/8/9 AP1/2/3 large blast weapons that may or may not also have ignore cover. Again removing entire squads fits in an Apoc game. It does not need to be in a tabletop game.
The biggest problem with FW is the hideously bad reputation that FW players have that has been all but self-inflicted. Players that ask, "Can I use a couple of FW units?" and then proceed to drop superheavies on the table and then pie plate their opponent off the table makes it so much difficult for the rest of us to use even the non-superheavy FW stuff. And telling people "l2p fething n00b" isn't helping any.
(I have three Hornets and yes they are kind of nasty. I usually don't use them all in one squadron. I don't think I have seen people spamming nine of yet. When Eldar lists start always including nine of them by default, then we have a problem.)
The biggest problem with FW is the hideously bad reputation that FW players have that has been all but self-inflicted. Players that ask, "Can I use a couple of FW units?" and then proceed to drop superheavies on the table and then pie plate their opponent off the table makes it so much difficult for the rest of us to use even the non-superheavy FW stuff. And telling people "l2p fething n00b" isn't helping any.
Honest question though, how many people have actually met the player who does this rather than read about it on the internet? My experience may be largely anecdotal due to having only ever played with friends in my/their homes, and regularly at 2 GW stores but whenever someone has asked to play FW it has either been IA13, Corsairs or a token model (either a Riptide variant, or Russ Variant) which have been utterly stunning models but not overly potent in the game. The only FW Lord of War I have placed is my Malcador Defender for my Renegades (anyone who hasnt seen the rules, its a demolisher cannon and a tonne of heavy bolters, mounted on worse armour than a Russ, fueled by a variable distance engine), which again has drawn a ridiculous amount of enemy fire but largely its cutting down swathes of incredibly cheap infantry with its heavy bolters and rarely makes back its cost.
The malcador is awesome... Rules are meh, but the tank is cool.
That's something people miss with the fw stuff in debates like this, the models are cool and to hell with the rules, the sicarion is arguably what all marine tanks should be anyway, fast and medium toughness.
And the cardinal rule : Bring the rules for anything you plan on fielding...before actually using it..allow your opponent a bit of time to read it and get a idea what it is and does.
Don't use memory or crib notes..have the most up to date stats and use those, the same as for any other codex unit in the game..alot..and I mean alot of this misunderstanding is due to players not using the actual stats and limitations of FW units, and getting things wrong..then it becomes a blown out of proportion issue..with people making all kinds of claims.
I love FW stuff..i love their books and lists, and actively support the use..but used correctly and by the rules..just like anything else in the game.
I dont really care one way or the other. The models look cool and I enjoy seeing the painted up just as much as I do normal models.
If they are actual FW units instead of FW models representing "normal" units, I would hope that the actual rules are brought along (not hand written ones but the REAL rules so I can know exactly what they can/cant do/ stats/ect before the game starts.
Formosa wrote: The malcador is awesome... Rules are meh, but the tank is cool.
That's something people miss with the fw stuff in debates like this, the models are cool and to hell with the rules, the sicarion is arguably what all marine tanks should be anyway, fast and medium toughness.
Definately this, the Malcador Defender model is beautiful, its a clearly outdated tank that the imperium has just about got enough working knowledge of the get it going but never reliably, and for renegades it is a fantastic concept of many guns firing (albeit poorly) from a relic that likely belongs more in a museum than on the field of battle.
I have just picked up the newest Forgeworld riptide, which yeah is good in ruleswise but it is a fantastic looking model, posed in a running stance he stands far taller than either of my other riptides and just looks fantastic, well worth the money paid and I'm really going to enjoy painting it up. Which is why i have forgeworld units, not because they're OP but because they are almost always centrepieces in my army, the best looking models amongst those in my collection are forgeworld models (Solar Auxilia as carapace vets, Malcador Defender, Hazard Suit as iridium armoured Commander, Big old Riptide)
Yes, there are some FW units that should only be in Apoc. The Typhon is a good example. A S10 AP1 large blast that ignores cover is balanced by its short range of 24" (if it moves) and 48" (if it doesn't). That is short range for Apoc game where there are units that have ranges of 72" up to 120" and then unlimited (IIRC). In a regular tabletop game, a Typhon can pretty much hit the entire table since it should only need to pivot. Many other superheavies have AP7/8/9 AP1/2/3 large blast weapons that may or may not also have ignore cover. Again removing entire squads fits in an Apoc game. It does not need to be in a tabletop game.
The Typhon has more issues with dying to anything that can efficiently disable a Land Raider than anything else. 350pts, 14 all round, and six hull points means it's on average eight melta shots to kill it, potentially as few as two if you're lucky.
That or charge it with ten models with Haywire and it's dead.
(If I were the complaining sort and I were to take issue with any FW superheavies the Brass Scorpion would be a better choice than the Typhon, it's got a similar gun that's not shorter range if it moves, moves 12" and charges 3d6", stomps more times, and has an Invulnerable save that can be boosted with Cursed Earth)
The problem that I have with Forgeworld is that it creates imbalance. Not rules wise, but with availability.
Space Marines, Astra Militarium, Tau, all have dozens of models available from each section. Tau have 5, space marines have 10... Ect.
Eldar have about 2 pages.
Necrons have 12 items.
Dark Eldar have 3.
If I was using my Eldar I probably wouldn't have a problem with forge world because I have access to a couple of decent selections.
If I was using my Dark Eldar I would prefer that you didn't use Forge world just because Dark Eldar haven't got much of a selection at all and that puts them at a disadvantage.
Also my first forge world experience was sour... A tau player with a special commander who did a hell of a lot of damage on his own, a lot more than the points that the guy must have paid for him. (Having said that I have since found out that this guy cheats/cannot read his codex. As do several of his other friends at the local club so I'm keeping an open mind for now)
On the subject of Morgoth, I don't know if I'm stepping into an ages-old feud or am going to get shot down for defending someone who has said/done horrible things on other threads but speaking as someone who's had very little contact with him outside this thread it sounds like he's taking a lot more flak than is warranted for making a legitimate point badly.
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TWilkins wrote: The problem that I have with Forgeworld is that it creates imbalance. Not rules wise, but with availability.
Space Marines, Astra Militarium, Tau, all have dozens of models available from each section. Tau have 5, space marines have 10... Ect.
Eldar have about 2 pages.
Necrons have 12 items.
Dark Eldar have 3.
If I was using my Eldar I probably wouldn't have a problem with forge world because I have access to a couple of decent selections.
If I was using my Dark Eldar I would prefer that you didn't use Forge world just because Dark Eldar haven't got much of a selection at all and that puts them at a disadvantage.
Also my first forge world experience was sour... A tau player with a special commander who did a hell of a lot of damage on his own, a lot more than the points that the guy must have paid for him. (Having said that I have since found out that this guy cheats/cannot read his codex. As do several of his other friends at the local club so I'm keeping an open mind for now)
Some armies are shafted/need Allies to get Forge World to work properly. On the bright side the rules as to who can take what superheavy are really, really fuzzy so there's theoretically no reason you couldn't take an evil Revenant or make a big Raider and call it a Lynx. Or run a Sororitas Baneblade.
TWilkins wrote: The problem that I have with Forgeworld is that it creates imbalance. Not rules wise, but with availability.
Space Marines, Astra Militarium, Tau, all have dozens of models available from each section. Tau have 5, space marines have 10... Ect.
Eldar have about 2 pages.
Necrons have 12 items.
Dark Eldar have 3.
If I was using my Eldar I probably wouldn't have a problem with forge world because I have access to a couple of decent selections.
If I was using my Dark Eldar I would prefer that you didn't use Forge world just because Dark Eldar haven't got much of a selection at all and that puts them at a disadvantage.
Also my first forge world experience was sour... A tau player with a special commander who did a hell of a lot of damage on his own, a lot more than the points that the guy must have paid for him. (Having said that I have since found out that this guy cheats/cannot read his codex. As do several of his other friends at the local club so I'm keeping an open mind for now)
The lack of variety for certain armies is a shame, not just for sake of rules variety but for lack of modelling, DE definately need their fair share of FW lovin sometime soon.
The Tau Commander... this could potentially be as much as issue with Special Characters as it is with Forgeworld (don't get me wrong, characters like Sevrin Loth are a beast), in specific reference to R'alai he is a field combination of battlesuit and vindicare like ammo but comes like to 200ish points, definately potent but can never join units and is only packing a 3+ (4++ upping to 3++ within 12 inches) and at T5 he can still be ID'd
AnomanderRake wrote: On the subject of Morgoth, I don't know if I'm stepping into an ages-old feud or am going to get shot down for defending someone who has said/done horrible things on other threads but speaking as someone who's had very little contact with him outside this thread it sounds like he's taking a lot more flak than is warranted for making a legitimate point badly.
That happens a lot around here. Usually it stems from simply disagreeing with someone on a point that is purely opinion based. This is when "buddies" end up ganging up on the persona and harrassing them forever because its fun for them and it is allowed. Sad really.
Selection does seem to be an issue in terms of how many different armies have. I honestly neve thought of that being a reason why someone would not want to face FW units.
Before doing my own research and reading rules for some units, I had considered ALL FW to be OP. Then I found it was only some and we had issues with people bringing superheavies and titans to normal games. This BEFORE such units were mainstream. Now that they are mainstream, most players gear up for them anyway so seeing a FW one is no big deal.
AnomanderRake wrote: If I were the complaining sort and I were to take issue with any FW superheavies the Brass Scorpion would be a better choice than the Typhon, it's got a similar gun that's not shorter range if it moves, moves 12" and charges 3d6", stomps more times, and has an Invulnerable save that can be boosted with Cursed Earth)
I thought the balancing factor to that was that the Greater Brass Scorpion can't fight back against another super-heavy ?
Yes, there are some FW units that should only be in Apoc. The Typhon is a good example. A S10 AP1 large blast that ignores cover is balanced by its short range of 24" (if it moves) and 48" (if it doesn't). That is short range for Apoc game where there are units that have ranges of 72" up to 120" and then unlimited (IIRC). In a regular tabletop game, a Typhon can pretty much hit the entire table since it should only need to pivot. Many other superheavies have AP7/8/9 AP1/2/3 large blast weapons that may or may not also have ignore cover. Again removing entire squads fits in an Apoc game. It does not need to be in a tabletop game.
The Typhon has more issues with dying to anything that can efficiently disable a Land Raider than anything else. 350pts, 14 all round, and six hull points means it's on average eight melta shots to kill it, potentially as few as two if you're lucky.
That or charge it with ten models with Haywire and it's dead.
(If I were the complaining sort and I were to take issue with any FW superheavies the Brass Scorpion would be a better choice than the Typhon, it's got a similar gun that's not shorter range if it moves, moves 12" and charges 3d6", stomps more times, and has an Invulnerable save that can be boosted with Cursed Earth)
If you are going to spend 350 points on a model, you might as well spend the extra 20 for ceramite armor and laugh off the melta attacks. As a superheavy, it can also laugh off a lot of things that tend to cripple a Land Raider. So, that really isn't a good comparison. Not to mention a local techmarine with harness and/or using the Iron Hand chapter tactics can make it even more durable to the point of, "No, just no." Like I said, it's offense is balanced in Apoc.
I know wyches lost their haywire grenades. Swooping Hawks still have theirs, but they may lose them in their new codex. There are Scourges and you are likely to see four of them in 1850 game with Haywire Blasters but eight would be unusual unless we are talking about list tailoring or your local meta is really vehicle heavy.
I won't deny that the Brass Scorpion is nasty, but it is also 700 points. There are some superheavies that wouldn't be that bad in a regular game and there are others that are just too much with no real good dividing line between them. Unfortunately people that like to push FW tend to take the latter.
zend0g wrote: Unfortunately people that like to push FW tend to take the latter.
Again there is this assertion that the people advocating Forgeworld "tend to" take the most ridiculous OP stuff. This has if anything been the opposite of my experience with those taking Forgeworld who often trend toward the modelling aspects of the hobbies (if you're spending 72 instead of 50 for your riptide, you ought to enjoy painting it for that money) rather than just slapping down OP stuff on the table. Whilst again my experience is annecdotal is there anything supporting the assertion that people like me (Forgeworld Enthusiasts) do, as stated, trend toward the more powerful units?
They're a very positive thing from an aesthetic point of view -being able to field a tank or squad with a different look to the original it a great thing . Can't speak as to how powerful they are relative to "mainstream" 40k units as have never played against any.
(I have three Hornets and yes they are kind of nasty. I usually don't use them all in one squadron. I don't think I have seen people spamming nine of yet. When Eldar lists start always including nine of them by default, then we have a problem.)
Except fielding them in vehicle squadrons is a severe nerf to their durability, so unless it's unbound with FW included, you'll never see 9 Hornets being competitive.
Yes, there are some FW units that should only be in Apoc. The Typhon is a good example. A S10 AP1 large blast that ignores cover is balanced by its short range of 24" (if it moves) and 48" (if it doesn't). That is short range for Apoc game where there are units that have ranges of 72" up to 120" and then unlimited (IIRC). In a regular tabletop game, a Typhon can pretty much hit the entire table since it should only need to pivot. Many other superheavies have AP7/8/9 AP1/2/3 large blast weapons that may or may not also have ignore cover. Again removing entire squads fits in an Apoc game. It does not need to be in a tabletop game.
The Typhon has more issues with dying to anything that can efficiently disable a Land Raider than anything else. 350pts, 14 all round, and six hull points means it's on average eight melta shots to kill it, potentially as few as two if you're lucky.
That or charge it with ten models with Haywire and it's dead.
(If I were the complaining sort and I were to take issue with any FW superheavies the Brass Scorpion would be a better choice than the Typhon, it's got a similar gun that's not shorter range if it moves, moves 12" and charges 3d6", stomps more times, and has an Invulnerable save that can be boosted with Cursed Earth)
Superheavy, armor options, 350 points, 14/14/14 and six hull points and you think it's not durable enough ???
You might want to take a look at all the other tanks in the game, Wave Serpent included. Nothing is that tough per point afaik.
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AnomanderRake wrote: On the subject of Morgoth, I don't know if I'm stepping into an ages-old feud or am going to get shot down for defending someone who has said/done horrible things on other threads but speaking as someone who's had very little contact with him outside this thread it sounds like he's taking a lot more flak than is warranted for making a legitimate point badly.
I like to present valid opinions that go against received thoughts, that tends to create a lot of friction with people who enjoy not thinking for themselves.
In this case, as a FW lover, I thought it made sense to point out that there are very valid reasons for people to fear FW.
TWilkins wrote: The problem that I have with Forgeworld is that it creates imbalance. Not rules wise, but with availability.
Space Marines, Astra Militarium, Tau, all have dozens of models available from each section. Tau have 5, space marines have 10... Ect.
Eldar have about 2 pages.
Necrons have 12 items.
Dark Eldar have 3.
If I was using my Eldar I probably wouldn't have a problem with forge world because I have access to a couple of decent selections.
If I was using my Dark Eldar I would prefer that you didn't use Forge world just because Dark Eldar haven't got much of a selection at all and that puts them at a disadvantage.
Also my first forge world experience was sour... A tau player with a special commander who did a hell of a lot of damage on his own, a lot more than the points that the guy must have paid for him. (Having said that I have since found out that this guy cheats/cannot read his codex. As do several of his other friends at the local club so I'm keeping an open mind for now)
Ralai.
I field him every game. I LOVE him. he's the definition of awesome.
And he hight impractical and nearly never actually gets his points back XD
Sorry to say mate, but if his Ralai did make up far more then his (190) points, than either he had incredible luck or got some rules wrong. (and if he has a cheater reputation, even more likely. being less known FW are actually easier to cheat with)
He has some relevant flaws, like the lack of ability to hide in a squad (he is not in fact an IC, many miss that) is the biggest, unimpressive warlord trait (PE: IC. what the hell?) makes him slightly worse as a solo HQ, and nearly everything getting hot means sometimes something will go wrong.
Yes, his firepower is divine. but his endurance is laughable.
Once again, I don't have the Dark Eldar codex, so therefor, you can't play the Dark Eldar. I also don't have CSM or Chaos Daemon codex, you can't play those.
Pyeatt wrote: Once again, I don't have the Dark Eldar codex, so therefor, you can't play the Dark Eldar. I also don't have CSM or Chaos Daemon codex, you can't play those.
Please. Most Games Workshop stores will have store copies of each of the codexes to resolve disputes where someone doesn't have a codex. (Even though players are supposed own a copy of the codex they are using.) Do Games Workshop stores carry the FW books? I don't think so as they are not allowed to sell them in the same way they cannot sell FW miniatures. Most small independent game stores don't have the books and even if they did they would probably not let someone break the cellophane wrapping and paw through an expensive book without buying it. If you don't play with FW, you probably have not seen the FW books in depth.
As A FW player, I understand someone that has reservations about playing against FW because they have not seen the books that I am using (IA:A 2ed and IA:v2 2ed). I would let them carefully look over the entries that I am using (as I like my books to stay in good shape). Go over the units that I am using along with their pros and cons. Compare them to units that already exist. (Saying, "But Wave Serpents are much worse!" almost never helps.) Make them feel comfortable and have a fun game. You want to bring players into the FW fold, not act like a fething git and drive them away. After reflecting upon it, I am going to agree with the person that you were replying to. If you are using stuff from a book that I have not seen, I want to see it or I want the option to see it. If you want to use some of the new Chaos units in IA:v13, then just have the book with you. If you have that book on you, it is a good disincentive for you to cheat.
Speaking of cheating, what about the most common ways players cheat with FW? Since not many people have the FW books aside from the player using the FW units and even fewer people have all of the books, it can be difficult to defend against.
Edition Hopping - If you think the new price for Hornets is awesome, but it stinks that the Warp Hunters were nerfed and you remember that you still have IA:v11 where they were better and you decide to use that profile instead without telling your opponent, then you are an fething git. For some units like Tarantulas, this can be somewhat excusable as they have like three to four current set of profiles and probably a similar number of 1ed profiles with some being nice and others being terrible. (It's so tempting to use the nicer profiles.)
Forgetitis - A player want to use his FW units but left his IA books are home as he doesn't want to scuff them up. So, all you have is his chicken scratch handwriting of what his units do. Yeah. Unless you really know the units and/or trust the player, you may want to be really cautious here. Another form of forgetitis is a player conveniently forgetting errata and updates that have nerfed some of their FW units. (*shakes fist at the Sicaran update*)
Pyeatt wrote: Once again, I don't have the Dark Eldar codex, so therefor, you can't play the Dark Eldar. I also don't have CSM or Chaos Daemon codex, you can't play those.
Please. Most Games Workshop stores will have store copies of each of the codexes to resolve disputes where someone doesn't have a codex. (Even though players are supposed own a copy of the codex they are using.) Do Games Workshop stores carry the FW books? I don't think so as they are not allowed to sell them in the same way they cannot sell FW miniatures. Most small independent game stores don't have the books and even if they did they would probably not let someone break the cellophane wrapping and paw through an expensive book without buying it. If you don't play with FW, you probably have not seen the FW books in depth.
That's only GW stores, which usually aren't where most people play anyway (especially in the US, particularly as most only have one or two tables), and even those don't always have store copies. Independents certainly won't have store copies of codex books (much less supplements, data slates, etc) in most cases.
My buddy plays CSM. I have no Chaos. And every time he does something or says something that seems uber, he shrugs and says "noise marines", or "contemptor dread" like that explains everything. He does keep the printed out page copies nearby, but since all the copies of CSM codex are wrapped, I think we should just ban CSM from my flgs entirely.
Don't play against me with forge world. I don't want to have to learn a bunch of other s@#$y rules that don't make sense for your amusement or win at all costs attitude. Forge world is a stupid addition to games workshop that they should denounce as not officially part of 40k. There are already enough bad rules in 40k, keep forge world separate from it please.
TheCadreofFi'rios wrote: Don't play against me with forge world. I don't want to have to learn a bunch of other s@#$y rules that don't make sense for your amusement or win at all costs attitude. Forge world is a stupid addition to games workshop that they should denounce as not officially part of 40k. There are already enough bad rules in 40k, keep forge world separate from it please.
Don't play against me with Tau. I don't want to learn a bunch of other gakky rules don't make sense for your amusement or win at all cost attitude. Tau is a stupid addition to games workshop that they should denounce as not officially part of 40k. There are already enough bad rules in 40k, keep Tau separate from it please.
AnomanderRake wrote: If I were the complaining sort and I were to take issue with any FW superheavies the Brass Scorpion would be a better choice than the Typhon, it's got a similar gun that's not shorter range if it moves, moves 12" and charges 3d6", stomps more times, and has an Invulnerable save that can be boosted with Cursed Earth)
I thought the balancing factor to that was that the Greater Brass Scorpion can't fight back against another super-heavy ?
It can fight most superheavies once you've Cursed Earthed it up to 2++ Inv.
TheCadreofFi'rios wrote: Don't play against me with forge world. I don't want to have to learn a bunch of other s@#$y rules that don't make sense for your amusement or win at all costs attitude. Forge world is a stupid addition to games workshop that they should denounce as not officially part of 40k. There are already enough bad rules in 40k, keep forge world separate from it please.
Don't play against me with Tau. I don't want to learn a bunch of other gakky rules don't make sense for your amusement or win at all cost attitude. Tau is a stupid addition to games workshop that they should denounce as not officially part of 40k. There are already enough bad rules in 40k, keep Tau separate from it please.
Honestly the Necrons are more deserving of this complaint than the Tau. The gakky rules are much, much gakkier, even if the result isn't as shenanigansy.
TheCadreofFi'rios wrote: Don't play against me with forge world. I don't want to have to learn a bunch of other s@#$y rules that don't make sense for your amusement or win at all costs attitude. Forge world is a stupid addition to games workshop that they should denounce as not officially part of 40k. There are already enough bad rules in 40k, keep forge world separate from it please.
This is the most amusingly ignorant and butthurt statement I've seen all day.
And you can literally apply this exact same phrase to *EVERYTHING* GW makes.
Honestly the Necrons are more deserving of this complaint than the Tau. The gakky rules are much, much gakkier, even if the result isn't as shenanigansy.
Its largely irrelevant what faction I used to make the point I'm making.
However, I chose Tau for two reasons; the first being the person's avatar and name suggests a Tau player and would likely hit a nerve, and the second being that Tau have many special rules and wargear that either ignore aspects of the rules entirely, or modify them to be not a little confusing for those not fully invested in keeping up to date with every codex.
Regardless, point is our friend TheCadreofFi'rios has made a terrible argument, and simply replacing FW with literally any other core codex serves enough to illustrate how comically bad the argument is.
AnomanderRake wrote: If I were the complaining sort and I were to take issue with any FW superheavies the Brass Scorpion would be a better choice than the Typhon, it's got a similar gun that's not shorter range if it moves, moves 12" and charges 3d6", stomps more times, and has an Invulnerable save that can be boosted with Cursed Earth)
I thought the balancing factor to that was that the Greater Brass Scorpion can't fight back against another super-heavy ?
It can fight most superheavies once you've Cursed Earthed it up to 2++ Inv.
I'm not seeing how. It has no D-Strength or any melee attack capable of effecting a super-heavy outside of HoW. I guess it could fight back with that but I'm not seeing any melee weapons in its profile.
TheCadreofFi'rios wrote: Don't play against me with forge world. I don't want to have to learn a bunch of other s@#$y rules that don't make sense for your amusement or win at all costs attitude. Forge world is a stupid addition to games workshop that they should denounce as not officially part of 40k. There are already enough bad rules in 40k, keep forge world separate from it please.
The Imperial Answer wrote: I'm not seeing how. It has no D-Strength or any melee attack capable of effecting a super-heavy outside of HoW. I guess it could fight back with that but I'm not seeing any melee weapons in its profile.
You don't need a melee weapon to attack in melee. It still has its STR 10 attacks, and lots of them.
The Imperial Answer wrote: I'm not seeing how. It has no D-Strength or any melee attack capable of effecting a super-heavy outside of HoW. I guess it could fight back with that but I'm not seeing any melee weapons in its profile.
You don't need a melee weapon to attack in melee. It still has its STR 10 attacks, and lots of them.
The only attacks I see it gets are Stomps and HoW.
The Greater Brass Scorpion has a very strong "A" stat, on top of having S10 and Smash, it's got double the number of attacks an SM Captain has in its basic profile.
I can understand concerns over the difficulty of finding the correct rules for FW products.
At their rate of release, on online version really is needed.
I don't know how many people would purposely use the wrong FW rules for their advantage, but I'm sure there are many people who are using outdated rules without knowing about it.
Big Blind Bill wrote: I can understand concerns over the difficulty of finding the correct rules for FW products.
At their rate of release, on online version really is needed.
I don't know how many people would purposely use the wrong FW rules for their advantage, but I'm sure there are many people who are using outdated rules without knowing about it.
Well for some things you have to use outdated rules. The rules have not been updated for it yet. Case in point, the Ork Heavy Bommers.
Big Blind Bill wrote: I can understand concerns over the difficulty of finding the correct rules for FW products.
At their rate of release, on online version really is needed.
I don't know how many people would purposely use the wrong FW rules for their advantage, but I'm sure there are many people who are using outdated rules without knowing about it.
Well for some things you have to use outdated rules. The rules have not been updated for it yet. Case in point, the Ork Heavy Bommers.
By outdated I mean rules which have newer versions.
For example, someone could buy Aeronautica because they want to use contemptor motis dreads, only to find that there is another FW book (IA Vol 2) which is newer, and has rules for the exact same model, meaning they wasted £30 on a book which is still on sale, but with outdated rules.
The Imperial Answer wrote: I'm not seeing how. It has no D-Strength or any melee attack capable of effecting a super-heavy outside of HoW. I guess it could fight back with that but I'm not seeing any melee weapons in its profile.
You don't need a melee weapon to attack in melee. It still has its STR 10 attacks, and lots of them.
The only attacks I see it gets are Stomps and HoW.
Its still a Super Heavy Walker, you don't need a special weapon to make melee attacks. It just makes a bunch of Str10 attacks.
Big Blind Bill wrote: I can understand concerns over the difficulty of finding the correct rules for FW products.
At their rate of release, on online version really is needed.
I don't know how many people would purposely use the wrong FW rules for their advantage, but I'm sure there are many people who are using outdated rules without knowing about it.
Well for some things you have to use outdated rules. The rules have not been updated for it yet. Case in point, the Ork Heavy Bommers.
By outdated I mean rules which have newer versions.
For example, someone could buy Aeronautica because they want to use contemptor motis dreads, only to find that there is another FW book (IA Vol 2) which is newer, and has rules for the exact same model, meaning they wasted £30 on a book which is still on sale, but with outdated rules.
The new path seems to go away from that though.
All tau are in IA3 2ed, all chaos in IA13, all necrons in IA12, all nids in IA4 If we get a book that rounds up everything a given faction has, it becomes much more manageable.
Not sure how new things like the new riptides will fit in (its way too early for a new IA3 book), but at least lately it became quite simple.
Though I hope they will give us a godamn list of "what rules are in what book", so we can finally do away with the "I can't know where the current rules are" argument.
I am pro FW. I would only field something that I like fluff wise. A Typhon or a Contempor. I don't mind playing it as long as the man or woman fielding it has the current rules.
Some stuff is a bit too strong. But, so are nornal units from the game. What is a (insert FW product,) to a ton of Riptides/Serpents, etc.
Big Blind Bill wrote: I can understand concerns over the difficulty of finding the correct rules for FW products.
At their rate of release, on online version really is needed.
I don't know how many people would purposely use the wrong FW rules for their advantage, but I'm sure there are many people who are using outdated rules without knowing about it.
Well for some things you have to use outdated rules. The rules have not been updated for it yet. Case in point, the Ork Heavy Bommers.
By outdated I mean rules which have newer versions.
For example, someone could buy Aeronautica because they want to use contemptor motis dreads, only to find that there is another FW book (IA Vol 2) which is newer, and has rules for the exact same model, meaning they wasted £30 on a book which is still on sale, but with outdated rules.
The new path seems to go away from that though.
All tau are in IA3 2ed, all chaos in IA13, all necrons in IA12, all nids in IA4 If we get a book that rounds up everything a given faction has, it becomes much more manageable.
Not sure how new things like the new riptides will fit in (its way too early for a new IA3 book), but at least lately it became quite simple.
Though I hope they will give us a godamn list of "what rules are in what book", so we can finally do away with the "I can't know where the current rules are" argument.
At least, things should be in one book and one book only.
Otherwise, how do you reconcile IA11 with IA:Apoc and IA:Apoc v2 and ... I mean that's such a friggin mess it took me a while to finally be 100% sure where the latest rules were.
Codex:Eldar Apoc would be something I would probably buy. I don't mind it being called Doom of Mymeara, but I mind Doom having outdated rules compared to other books.
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Great for you, you have much more disposable income than me to collect 
