Well, given the quality of the X-men films, we can be sure the production values are there. However, I must admit that the F4 have never really appealed to me, and really, all they are doing at the moment is stopping Dr Doom from being used in the MCU (which is annoying, because they need to top Thanos for Avengers 5+ somehow). I may get this when it hits DVD if the reviews are good, but I shan't be rushing out to see it.
It all hinges for me on how they do Doom, he's the only character in it that interests me.
Laemos wrote: Why so negative? It is better than Jessica alba version. I think having thing as black guy would make more sense than torch.
People already whined that having a black Thing is racist, despite him being the favorite FF member. The brother and sister should not be different races: make them the same damn race, I don't care which one! But this separate race bs is offensive, as it's basically saying "we need a black guy," and putting him in the worst character choice possible. Good job, idiots at Fox. Like Ghost Rider 2, I'll be avoiding this hunk of gak.
hotsauceman1 wrote: The narration sounded like one from outer limits episodes
Also, why is the human torch black?
I don't care if he's black, my problem is why am I going to see how they became what they are AGAIN?!?! I mean the other movies are only a few years old.... why have another origin story? That was my biggest problem with the last Spider Man movie. Uhg.
hotsauceman1 wrote: The narration sounded like one from outer limits episodes
Also, why is the human torch black?
Kate Mara as Susan Storm is adopted by a black family, so the question she probably got her entire (fictional) life is, "why are you white?"
I've never really cared about the Fantastic Four and this trailer hasn't changed that. They kicked off Marvel Zombies and that was kind of cool until they beat it to death like a 9 minute long SNL skit but outside of that I truly cannot think of a single storyline I remember enjoying with the Fantastic Four. Maybe the FF vs X-men back in the day.
Overly dark? Check.
Overblown gritty/Dark Knight-ish-ness that all the kids (apparently) love? Check.
Virtually no shots of the heroes doing anything with their powers? Check?
Inception BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHS throughout? Check.
The Ant-Man teaser was more lighthearted than this FFS. And the worst part? This was made just to stop Marvel from gettnig the rights back. So it looks dull and it's made for craven reasons.
Well, given the quality of the X-men films, we can be sure the production values are there. However, I must admit that the F4 have never really appealed to me, and really, all they are doing at the moment is stopping Dr Doom from being used in the MCU (which is annoying, because they need to top Thanos for Avengers 5+ somehow). I may get this when it hits DVD if the reviews are good, but I shan't be rushing out to see it.
It all hinges for me on how they do Doom, he's the only character in it that interests me.
I have Not heard good things about the portrayal of Doom in this movie.
Well, given the quality of the X-men films, we can be sure the production values are there. However, I must admit that the F4 have never really appealed to me, and really, all they are doing at the moment is stopping Dr Doom from being used in the MCU (which is annoying, because they need to top Thanos for Avengers 5+ somehow). I may get this when it hits DVD if the reviews are good, but I shan't be rushing out to see it.
It all hinges for me on how they do Doom, he's the only character in it that interests me.
I have Not heard good things about the portrayal of Doom in this movie.
Doom is a hacker. And he's not called Dr. Doom. He's "Victor Domashev", aka Doom when he's on the internet.
curran12 wrote:Also, is it petty of me to say that just the "Fan4stic" thing makes the movie stupid and I'd not watch it because of it?
The comics have been using the Fant4stic banner for a fair while now, at least since the most recent volume started, though I will agree that it looks a bit silly.
timetowaste85 wrote:People already whined that having a black Thing is racist, despite him being the favorite FF member.
Got some evidence for either of those claims?
The brother and sister should not be different races: make them the same damn race, I don't care which one! But this separate race bs is offensive, as it's basically saying "we need a black guy," and putting him in the worst character choice possible.
It's actually almost funny how wrong you are. Michael B Jordan was rumoured to be the human torch for months before other casting occured, specifically due to him having worked with Josh Trank on Chronicle. It's not a case of going 'we need a black character' and choosing the worst person for the job, it's a case of the director going 'I know the best person for the job of Johnny Storm', and that person happened to be black. Having seen Chronicle, and having seen Michael B Jordan in it, I think he'll be able to play an excellent Johnny Storm.
For another thing, how is two siblings being a different race offensive? You do realise that adoption is a thing, right? It's been a thing for a while, like, at least five or so years.
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thedarkavenger wrote: Doom is a hacker. And he's not called Dr. Doom. He's "Victor Domashev", aka Doom when he's on the internet.
This is the bit that might ruin the film for me. To be fair, that information came from a 'leaked script' so it's suspect at best,straight from the horses mouth it would seem. but the portrayal of DOOOOOOOOM will be what makes or breaks this for me.
I do, yeah: go look back at the last F4 thread we had. I'll wait. You and I argued in that one too. We see things differently in the matter, and neither of us will accept the other's point of view. But people on here were saying "oh, if you make the Thing be black, it'll be racist because he looks like a monster". I don't care if HT is black; provided Sue is as well. You might think this is completely natural and not at all odd, Goliath, but it feels forced to me. Again, I won't be able to change your mind, and I haven't agreed with about 90% of what you've had to say about any marvel movie. So we're just gonna have to let it go.
Doom is a hacker. And he's not called Dr. Doom. He's "Victor Domashev", aka Doom when he's on the internet.
So basically, they've killed it... Great, I no longer need to worry about spending precious seconds of my life watching this film. My biggest issue (among many) of the old F4 films was how Doom was largely wasted, and this sounds like it will do the same.
I've been concerned about the way this version was going ever since it was mentioned it was going to take very little from the comics and be a more 'down to earth' super-hero film (whatever that means). But if they aren't even going to Doom properly, then concern over; hopefully, the film will bomb, and Marvel will get the rights back in time to do something good with it.
Directed by Josh Trank, who also did Chronicle. I'm not sure why they picked Jamie Bell for The Thing. Nowhere near big enough for Ben Grimm. Michael Chiklis played a pretty convincing Thing to be fair. Not sure about Dr Doom or Human Torch either.
I think they made him black (Torch) simply to cover their butts from the PC crowd.
Also- why are we going back to ANOTHER fething origins film again?
angelofvengeance wrote: Directed by Josh Trank, who also did Chronicle. I'm not sure why they picked Jamie Bell for The Thing. Nowhere near big enough for Ben Grimm. Michael Chiklis played a pretty convincing Thing to be fair. Not sure about Dr Doom or Human Torch either.
I think they made him black (Torch) simply to cover their butts from the PC crowd.
Also- why are we going back to ANOTHER fething origins film again?
See the only problem that the human torch being black is... What about his sister? She's white correct? Are they going to say he is adopted or that he was born from the same mother?
I mean I would of found it more interesting that the Dr. Fantastic was black and johnny still white. That would mean that the black guy is in a more favorable position, instead of the handsome looking jock, who barely knows anything. Its more telling of how stupidly handled this movie is going to be.
I personally think it is going to take a big stinker like super man returns!
See the only problem that the human torch being black is... What about his sister? She's white correct? Are they going to say he is adopted or that he was born from the same mother? !
If only someone had answered this question like right on this page.
Should have taken a leaf out of Batman Begins/Amazing Spiderman/Man of Steel and not rolled out the obvious/classic/same villain for the origin story as the last movies. That alone pretty much kills the idea of doing anything other than waiting for it to be on TV.
Should have taken a leaf out of Batman Begins/Amazing Spiderman/Man of Steel and not rolled out the obvious/classic/same villain for the origin story as the last movies. That alone pretty much kills the idea of doing anything other than waiting for it to be on TV.
The issue is that the Fantastic 4 have all of 3 supporting characters that non-comic fans know(maybe 4 if you count Namor) and only one of them is actually a villain.
We have Annihilus, Doom, Galactus, Namor (like you mentioned), and...what, Mole Man? The Puppetmaster? Seriously, that's all I got. Galactus, of course, comes with his multiple heralds. I don't think they need individual recognition.
Honestly, their best bet would have been to go with Annihilus or Blaastar, one of the Negative Zone baddies. If they're supposed to be explorers, let them explore the new zone: let them find this tyrant and let them be the screw ups who show him all that the world has to offer, then save it from him!
Doom is a hacker? Lolwhut? Seriously...who actually greenlit this project? Just kill the movie and give it back to Marvel. If you don't support Fox studios being a bunch of asshats, please avoid it (at least until RedBox/Netflix) If it flops, Fox'll give up (like Daredevil) and it'll go back to Marvel.
I have a feeling that Marvel kept the rights to Annihilus just like they did the Inhumans. I honestly wouldn't be surprised to see him show up in a future Guardians movie, especially since the team they used in the movie premiered in the Annihilation event.
Also, Doom as a hacker kind of fits with Ultimate Doom's origins. Wonder if they're going with the Storms running a super genius school in this as well.
See the only problem that the human torch being black is... What about his sister? She's white correct? Are they going to say he is adopted or that he was born from the same mother? !
If only someone had answered this question like right on this page.
Should have taken a leaf out of Batman Begins/Amazing Spiderman/Man of Steel and not rolled out the obvious/classic/same villain for the origin story as the last movies. That alone pretty much kills the idea of doing anything other than waiting for it to be on TV.
Doom is one of the biggest if not the biggest villain in all of Marvel. I hope that one day someone makes a movie where that is apparent, cause this one sure as hell won't be it.
People more interested in keeping the rights from Marvel than actually making a FF movie.
squidhills wrote: Fox can't use Namor as a villain; Universal has the rights to him.
Not quite. Namor's rights are... complicated. Suffice to say it, Marvel could do a movie about Namor if they wanted to, but it'd require a little wrangling.
@H's response to me: I realize that, but it still makes it as stupid as all feth. Fox should make a movie that will generate money, rather than lose money on a pile of crap to keep it from somebody else. I get that it's corporate policy and planning, but it's still stupid.
I actually like the original version of Ultimate Doom(goat legs!) and his powers. I was disappointed when they later changed his design and abilities to just being 616 all over again. I was also disappointed when they did much the same to the Ultimates themselves in Volume 3.
But then, I'm one of the few who actually liked Ultimate-verse being similar but different.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Doom is one of the biggest if not the biggest villain in all of Marvel. I hope that one day someone makes a movie where that is apparent, cause this one sure as hell won't be it.
Ideally, Marvel get the rights in time to have Doom be the Plot Arc for Avengers 5+. Since they opened with Thanos, and have already used Ultron,, Loki and the Red Skull, that leaves the following major players as I see it:
Norman Osborn (Sony have the rights)
Kang (possibly too complicated with time travel and all that)
Galactus (Fox have the rights)
Doom (Fox have the rights)
Mephisto (so far they have stayed away from interdimensionals)
Annihilus (Fox have the rights)
Of those, I reckon Doom would be the easiest to introduce and the most effective character to use, so hopefully they can sort something else after this movie self-destructs.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Doom is one of the biggest if not the biggest villain in all of Marvel. I hope that one day someone makes a movie where that is apparent, cause this one sure as hell won't be it.
Ideally, Marvel get the rights in time to have Doom be the Plot Arc for Avengers 5+. Since they opened with Thanos, and have already used Ultron,, Loki and the Red Skull, that leaves the following major players as I see it:
Norman Osborn (Sony have the rights)
Kang (possibly too complicated with time travel and all that)
Galactus (Fox have the rights)
Doom (Fox have the rights)
Mephisto (so far they have stayed away from interdimensionals)
Annihilus (Fox have the rights)
Of those, I reckon Doom would be the easiest to introduce and the most effective character to use, so hopefully they can sort something else after this movie self-destructs.
I seem to remember hearing about a Dr. Strange movie. Mephisto is probably there.
Indeed. I do hope they go the full honest-to-goodness actual real magic route with Strange, rather than the tech-magic of Thor, in which case we might see Mephisto. My money is on Dormannu, though, with Mordo doing a reverse-Loki from sort-of-ally to outright enemy.
If I thought they were going to have something to say about adoption I wouldn't care that Sue and Johnny Storm were adopted siblings. Instead I feel more like they made the choice based on wanting one black person in the group, but that two would have been to many, so that I am more annoyed by. That is strike one, I suppose.
Changing one of the baddest melon-fethers in the universe (Dr. Doom) into Victor Domashev, programmer and hactivist with the online name Doom, is strikes two through twenty one.
I'll have to hear from reliable sources that it isn't all that bad before even considering seeing this in the theater.
And again, I'm not saying that this will be as bad as the 'legendary' Corman one, but I still think that this one is more about Studio Maneuvering and Rights Maintenance than...anything else?
Ahtman wrote: I'll have to hear from reliable sources that it isn't all that bad before even considering seeing this in the theater.
There's really nothing that could convince me to see it in theaters. This is more of a "wait until Netflix".
Yeah, I should have said "theater or Netflix".
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Alpharius wrote: Especially with that awful re-imagining of Doom.
Honestly I am hoping they are just screwing with us and keeping the truth secret; I would be fine with a Ultimate's Dr. Doom even. I don't really mind the Four done as reimagined elementals either (Air, Water, Fire, and Earth), but I don't have a lot of hope really.
Honestly I am hoping they are just screwing with us and keeping the truth secret; I would be fine with a Ultimate's Dr. Doom even. I don't really mind the Four done as reimagined elementals either (Air, Water, Fire, and Earth), but I don't have a lot of hope really.
Yes!
The Ultimate FF as 'elementals' was one of the best things for me - and the fact that it fit so well was...fantastic!
Almost like Stan meant it, just didn't realize it!
Saying that though, Quicksilver has been in the X-men series AND now the Avengers series of movies.. So technically they could use Doom in the Avenger-verse too.
angelofvengeance wrote:Saying that though, Quicksilver has been in the X-men series AND now the Avengers series of movies.. So technically they could use Doom in the Avenger-verse too.
Quicksilver was a unique case as he has been a member of both the Avengers and the Brotherhood of Mutants, both fairly prominently, so fell under both licences. Doom is one of those ones explicitly tied to the FF liscence, despite having gone up against almost anyone who is anyone in the Marvel universe.
timetowaste85 wrote: Mephisto was covered in Ghost Rider, along with Blackheart (his son). Kang would totally work, it's not THAT hard to deal with, as X-men proved.
Strange should be Mordo and/or Dormmammu.
And while Marvel has already done up Loki, they still have Enchantress/Scourge, Zemo, Baron Wolfgang Von Strucker, and a slew of others.
Pretty sure he already appeared in the Winter Soldier credits scene.
timetowaste85 wrote: Mephisto was covered in Ghost Rider, along with Blackheart (his son).
If I'm not mistaken, Marvel now have the GR rights, so they could do Mephisto easily enough (hell, even a decent GR film!)
And while Marvel has already done up Loki, they still have Enchantress/Scourge, Zemo, Baron Wolfgang Von Strucker, and a slew of others.
Of that Iist, I'd only consider Zemo and Strucker as A-list Avengers villains, rather than backup or solo film material. Strucker is in for Avengers 2, whether or not he survives that we shall see.
As for Zemo, I do hope we get Thunderbolts as a film at some point. I guess it depends on whether Sinister Six and DC's Suicide Squad go as to whether Marvel take an all-villain film route.
angelofvengeance wrote: Saying that though, Quicksilver has been in the X-men series AND now the Avengers series of movies.. So technically they could use Doom in the Avenger-verse too.
That's not the way rights work.
timetowaste85 wrote: And while Marvel has already done up Loki, they still have Enchantress/Scourge, Zemo, Baron Wolfgang Von Strucker, and a slew of others.
Strucker has a minor role in Age of Ultron. Zemo will be in Civil War.
The Thing is always the hardest one to 'get right' - looks OK to me, but we'll have to see how he looks on the screen, moving around and interacting with the other characters.
Agreed. I expect it to be far worse than the last one with Chicklis (spelling), Alba, Evans and Iain (whatever his last name is). I expect it to be on a similar level to Daredevil. Not quite as bad as Elektra or the Ang Lee POS Hulk movie. God, those two were bad. Like shoot-myself-in-the-face bad.
Still not convinced. Visually it looks fine, but that's a given these days. The film will ride on how they do Doom, and so far, I don't like what I see/hear on that front.
They could do a whole movie on Graviton and the other occupants of The Raft (they already set up Graviton in Agents of SHIELD), especially if Ant-Man gets some shrinking action added to the MCU.
Egregious wrote: They could do a whole movie on Graviton and the other occupants of The Raft (they already set up Graviton in Agents of SHIELD), especially if Ant-Man gets some shrinking action added to the MCU.
Not sure you're in the right thread!
Trailer #2 makes me more optimistic, but I'll agree a lot hinges on how Doom looks/acts.
I'm also an admitted FF fanboy for...a long time now!
Was into the FF as a kid. This movie is not about the FF. It is about some group of twilight rejects getting FF like powers.
Reed Richards is supposed to be 35-40 years old. Not some just out of college research assistant.
Ben Grimm is supposed to have a thick Bronx accent....not an englishman doing a generic american accent.
Johnny Storm, hmmm....corporate "pc" decision to show that they are not racist, nor do they promote racist stereo-types, by having a black man portray an angry impulsive jock. Oh, the delicious irony.
A better choice would have been to cast him as Reed Richards, as he is the only one that looks the right age to play Mr. Fantastic.
Sue Storm, This is the only non-cgi improvement over the previous alba-ortions. The casting for Susan Storm is dead on from the looks of it.
Question, Why is the older scientist dude using what should be The Things voice?
The whole movie is a giant middle finger to the FF franchise and to Marvel.
Some here have suggested that this movie was about keeping the rights to the characters and I agree. Fox should have been thinking farther ahead in that they should be setting up the FF Spidey team-ups. Aside from the Doom, Galactus and possibly the Harkness/Franklin Richards story arcs the Spidey cross overs were the most entertaining and likely the best choice for cinematic adaptation.
All said...I will not be rewarding Fox movie corps poor choices with any of my money. I can wait the 1&1/2 years for it to be on network tv....at which point I'll probably change the channel.
The thing that makes me hopeful about this film is Fox has clearly decided to get away from the source material to some extent. But at the same time, that really worries me about Doom. The guy playing has already said he is nothing like the comic book version. He's some kind of computer hacker instead. The traditional version, however, is the compelling one. Doctor Doom is the crazy comic book villain par excellence. So it is a bit worrisome.
Meh, looks more entertaining to me than Supes vs. Bats and I like the people they have cast in the stuff I've seen them in so I'm good with it. I'm more likely to plunk down for this than for SvB....
The thing that makes me hopeful about this film is Fox has clearly decided to get away from the source material to some extent. But at the same time, that really worries me about Doom. The guy playing has already said he is nothing like the comic book version. He's some kind of computer hacker instead. The traditional version, however, is the compelling one. Doctor Doom is the crazy comic book villain par excellence. So it is a bit worrisome.
Well, this version is basically taking the ULTIMATE FANTASTIC FOUR origin and going with that - so yes, they're getting away from the Classic Origin, but almost going note for note with the Ultimate one.
And in that one, yeah, it isn't as cool as Classic Doom, but it can still be pretty good!
Well, perhaps I exaggerate somewhat, but they're seriously young compared to what they appear to be in the comics, as you say.
I guess if you need a blanket appeal to the kids, but the other comic moves I don't feel really do that. At least not to such an extreme. Cumberbach as Strange will be interesting, but I could see him being someone who could look much older than he appears to.
And the actor who plays Johnny doesn't even have a Johnny feel to him from the trailer. At all. Evans NAILED the HT persona, dead on. This trailer did nothing to convince me the movie won't be garbage. Thing looks good. I'll definitely give them that. Ben Grimm is garbage, but Thing is fine. Slow clap, Fox, for being asshats.
Sounds like a typical Fantastic Four experience to me.
Seriously. the last time I enjoyed anything fantastic four, it was when X23 was babysitting the Reed babies, and that was almost ruined by Hellion being a total creeper.
Seriously. the last time I enjoyed anything fantastic four, it was when X23 was babysitting the Reed babies, and that was almost ruined by Hellion being a total creeper.
The last time I enjoyed anything Fantastic Four, it was a strip in Twisted Toyfair Theater. And that was satire.
This has a looks to have a lot of potential - and looks to be better than the last 2 efforts.
Of course, having said that, if you're not a fan of the Fantastic Four, well...
No. No it does not. It looks like a steaming pile. Take off your beer goggles, Alph!! Seriously, you're about to take home the ugliest dog at the bar!! That coquettish laugh? It was really a belch and pit-scratch. Run!!
I'm on the fence. On the one hand, I think it looks kinda crap. I think the Thing looks pretty terrible. Mind you, I never really liked FF even in the comics, going back to the X-Men vs the FF way back when.
On the other hand, it's a new franchise, and part of the MCU, right? I feel like I sort of have to watch it. I like Kate Mara pretty well, also, and Michael B. Jordan was the guy from Chronicle, right? He was great in that.
I think I'd enjoy them as a subset of a larger force fighting Thanos, anyway.
And yeah, better than Chiklis, but still bad. Ultimately IMO. I think the Thing is impossible to look good outside of comics. I think maybe what they have is the best possible of a design that is not going to translate to the screen.
I think that's clearly and easily the best he's ever looked on film - but maybe for some, as you note, he'll never look good enough outside of the comics?
I honestly can't see the Fantastic 4 franchise continuing to exist away from Marvel. The Marvel release schedule by itself makes for a very crowded market, but then on top of that you've got DC trying to build their own franchise in movies, and the X-Men franchise.
The pressure to release or lose the rights already caught up with Spiderman, and that's after Sony had a lot of success with the property, before eventually deciding it wasn't a good continued investment given the saturation of the market.
Now the X-Men franchise is in the same position as Fantastic 4 - keep releasing films or the rights revert to Marvel. But the X-Men has a solid record of performance at that box office, while the Fantastic 4 have really, really do not. And this time they're rebooting it with no a-listers among the cast.
I can't see Fantastic 4 franchise continuing outside of Marvel, to be honest.
Goliath wrote: It's actually almost funny how wrong you are. Michael B Jordan was rumoured to be the human torch for months before other casting occured, specifically due to him having worked with Josh Trank on Chronicle. It's not a case of going 'we need a black character' and choosing the worst person for the job, it's a case of the director going 'I know the best person for the job of Johnny Storm', and that person happened to be black. Having seen Chronicle, and having seen Michael B Jordan in it, I think he'll be able to play an excellent Johnny Storm.
There was a film released maybe 10 or 15 years ago, called Room for Romeo Brass. It features a black kid living in a white family, and it's never explained how or why. What had actually happened was that during casting the director had picked the actor, and he just happened to be black, same as what happened here from what you've said.
Thing is, in Room for Romeo Brass it worked great, because it suited the family theme explored in the movie. And maybe that will be the case here - adoption will be part of a greater theme of finding family where you can (which makes sense given the team nature of the Fantastic 4), and if that's the case the inter-racial brother & sister could be brilliant. But honestly, seeing that preview I doubt it. I suspect the director had the actor he wanted, and just reworked the backstory to make it fit. If that's the case then it isn't promising at all.
I like the way Thing looks in this one. As someone else mentioned, Sue Storm's casting is far better -- I mean WORLDS better -- in this movie than in the others. I don't think either movie got the right guy for Reed. Conversely, both seem to nail Johnny but he's not the most complex character.
So it's down to Doom. And Russian hacker Doom, possibly with goat legs, is NOT NOT NOT the one I love.
I think there is, but I think it'd require a massive tone shift to something more Silver Age. Unfortunately Hollywood only understand that in terms of camp, when what they should be going for is breathless storytelling - don't worry about background explanations, just tell a shamelessly fun story. The original Galactus two parter is just a cracking good story, and if well handled would make for a great movie.
Now the X-Men franchise is in the same position as Fantastic 4 - keep releasing films or the rights revert to Marvel. But the X-Men has a solid record of performance at that box office, while the Fantastic 4 have really, really do not. And this time they're rebooting it with no a-listers among the cast.
X-Men vs. Fantastic Four might also be down to which is the more popular franchise and/or has the biggest fan base?
Because the first two FF movies did OK - possibly even solid - at the box office at (2005) $330M and (2005) $289M respectively - and this even with neither of them being particularly great movies.
X-Men (2000) $296M
X2 (2003) $407M
X-Men Last Stand (2006) $459M
(2008 --> Iron Man is released)
X-Men First Class (2011) $353M
X-Men Days of Future Past (2014) $748M
We're now in the post-Iron Man age, where Superhero movies, if done well, make a lot more money.
Of course the Fantastic Four still has to actually be a good movie, with a good story, with good effects, etc. - but if it is, I think it can do quite well.
Certainly well enough for Fox to continue to want to develop films using these characters.
I do wish it would revert back to Marvel though, as I don't think we're going to see the 'real' Dr. Doom until it does...
The problem they have with the Fantastic Four is they seem to be going to a new story, which is an origin, and basically just a 'super hero' movie.
Fox has been having success with the X-Men lately because they've been adapting (however loosely) fan favorite stories from the comics, rather than trying to homebrew their own stories.
Marvel has been finding success post-Avengers by making genre films that happen to have a super (or not) hero as the main character/s. IM 3 was the snarky revenge/redemption action movie, Winter Soldier was a spy/intrigue movie, Dark World was pure science fantasy adventure, Guardians was a big space opera, and Ant Man (though unlreleased so we don't know if it will have any succes) is a heist movie.
Fantastic Four seems like it's harking back to the pre-Iron Man days, where they're not only still making an origin reboot, but they're making a generic superhero movie with a name tacked on.
Thing is, though, X-men is now on its 8th film next year, as has consistently got better with each one, standing equal with or even ahead of its contemporary competitors.
In the early 00s, you have X1-3, Daredevil, the first F4s and the Maguire Spidey, and X-men comes out light years ahead of any of those in just about every way. Then, in the solo pre-Avengers MCU years, Wolverine Origins and First Class were as good as anything in the MCU. Now, in the Teamup-years, DOFP is every bit as good as Avengers Assemble, and Apocalypse should go the same way. In terms of consistency, X-men has a better track record than any other Marvel property. Say what you like about Origins or X3, neither are anywhere near as unwatchable as Spiderman 3, F4 or Iron Man 2/3.
X-men has momentum, consistency, variety and a stellar cast in every version. Fanastic 4 has none of that.
I will admits bias here, I have never really been a fan of F4 even before the films, but I see this film as the weakest link in the chain of upcoming superhero movies. Up against the guaranteed hit of Avengers 2 it won't stand a chance, and over the next year, I'm pretty sure Deadpool, Ant Man, SuperBat, Cap3, Thor3, Apocalypse and maybe even Suicide Squad are going to leave F4 as the poor kid standing in the corner crying, both in terms of money made and quality of film. Not to mention the fact that to most MCU fans, all this film does is stop Marvel using one of their best villains. Proper Doom vs The Avengers would be so much more awesome than hacker-Doom vs F4.
So, serious missteps there, but it worked out OK, eventually.
And since the past FF movies are possibly seen as 'unsuccessful' in terms of establishing whatever it is that Fox wanted to establish, it is no surprise that they're going with the ULTIMATE FF version - which would 'necessitate' a reboot - and new origin story.
Will it be enough to bring in people who don't like the FF already?
Probably not?
But will it be enough to start a successful franchise?
That remains to be seen - and I'll be seeing for myself in theaters on or around August 7!
One problem is, Reed Richards is pretty unrelateable.
Let me qualify that: Reed was very relateable for geeky boys reading comics hanging onto that old chestnut about the jocks (Johnny, Ben) working for them one day and the girl next door (Sue) seeing them for the noble genius they really are. But the moviegoing audience is not as sympathetic to that sort of line.
Ultimate FF is an attempt to help in that regard - but yeah, he's still 'the smartest guy in the room' - maybe he'll be an all around good/nice guy too?
ULTIMATE Reed goes off the rails pretty hard eventually though - horribly so too.
I don't imagine that they'll ever get there or really even go there if they make another 1 or 2 FF movies with this cast though.
I'd be more interested in a proper Galactus/Silver Surfer movie - but FF2 already hosed us in that regard, probably.
-Loki- wrote: Have to disagree with what you said about Origins and X3.
Iron Man 2 and 3 have their problems, no doubt. But I was literally cringing in parts of X3 and Origins due to how bad they were.
Disagree with your disagreement. X-3 was perfectly watchable. I almost didn't finish IM-2. I started watching IM-3 on an 8 hour flight with garbage options. Did. not finish.
And I loved IM 1 and Tony Stark is my favorite guy on screen in Avengers.
Techno-organic Doom is still fail. With all the Alexandre Dumas literary references available, why don't they just incorporate that into Doom's background instead?
Each time I see new stuff about this film I can't help but wonder how much better things would be if the Fantastic Four were still with Marvel. I don't give a damn about the Fantastic Four themselves (other than the Human Torch's power set is amazingly awesome), but the stuff that comes with the FF (Doom, Galactus, Silver Surfer, etc.) would be a real boon to later 'Phases' of the MCU.
WrentheFaceless wrote: Still crossing my fingers this does so bad that Fox actually sells it back to Marvel
Wha...?!?
What's with the schadenfreude?!?
I love the Fantastic Four - so how about we compromise?
How about the movie be really good, but for some reason it doesn't make a lot of money?
That way it still goes back to Marvel, and Namor, Galactus, the Silver Surfer, the Negative Zone, etc. can end up in the same universe as the Avengers, etc. - and I still get to enjoy a good movie!
WrentheFaceless wrote: Still crossing my fingers this does so bad that Fox actually sells it back to Marvel
Wha...?!?
What's with the schadenfreude?!?
I love the Fantastic Four - so how about we compromise?
How about the movie be really good, but for some reason it doesn't make a lot of money?
That way it still goes back to Marvel, and Namor, Galactus, the Silver Surfer, the Negative Zone, etc. can end up in the same universe as the Avengers, etc. - and I still get to enjoy a good movie!
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Actually...doesn't some OTHER studio own Namor?!?
I'm meh about the FF itself, more wanting its supporting cast to go to Marvel (Doom, Galactus, Surfer etc)
Though I think thus far after now 3 movies, Fox has proven they cant make a FF movie, which is why I would think you would hope as well that it does poorly enough for marvel to get the rights back and do them right.
Paradigm wrote: Saying that though, Quicksilver has been in the X-men series AND now the Avengers series of movies.. So technically they could use Doom in the Avenger-verse too.
My dream superhero movie is a Heroes For Hire film, which is set in the 1970's, and the pre-credits bit is Dr Doom in his sinister fortress, hard at work on some devious and pointlessly complicated apocalyptic scheme....and then Luke Cage kicks in Doom's front door and demands his two hundred bucks.
Namor's rights are a little more complicated than just being owned by someone else. It's a bit like a standalone Hulk film. Can Marvel make one? Yes. But will they? No, because Disney wouldn't be distributing it. Universal would be, and Disney wouldn't allow that.
AdeptSister wrote: I was hesitant about the movie but a friend just reminded me that it has a murderer‘s row of great young actors. It could be pretty good.
AdeptSister wrote: Fair. I will agree that it is a stretch and I am embellishing. But the leads are stronger than the earlier versions. That gives me some hope.
Of course, hope could be the first step to disappointment.
Bigger than Chris Evans and Jessica Alba? Or stronger than Chicklis (however you spell Thing-actor's last name)?
Please, tell me another one. Sure, Evans had mostly done teen geek movies so far and nothing major until HT and later Cap. But Alba?! Sure, she can't act her way out of a bag. But she's a helluva lot more recognize able than this new girl. Even Ian and Michael have both done some serious onscreen stuff before and after FF. None of these new players have any feel to them, and the movie feels forced and contrived from the get go. I expect this to be a bigger turd than the Ang Lee Hulk (which was an abortion of a film) and Daredevil. Elektra will still likely be the worst marvel movie ever created though.
I'd love to see a fantastic Four where Nic Cage plays one of the characters- preferably Dr. Doom, or the Thing. Or even more ideally, both. In a scheme to improve his physical might, Dr. Doom steals and implants the Thing's DNA within himself- but without the catalyst of Gamma Radiation he simply ends up looking like the pre-accident Thing.
Doom is nonplussed, and goes around freaking out at mirrors and his surprised servants, as only Cage can. Then they encounter each other, and there's a hilarious scuffle culminating in the Thing yelling- 'Ok face- it's clobbering time!'hoooaaauuuhhooooeeouh!
And headbutting Doom. Reed reverses it, and Doom quietly returns to his base intent on eradicating all pictures of the event.
Gitzbitah wrote: I'd love to see a fantastic Four where Nic Cage plays one of the characters- preferably Dr. Doom, or the Thing. Or even more ideally, both. In a scheme to improve his physical might, Dr. Doom steals and implants the Thing's DNA within himself- but without the catalyst of Gamma Radiation he simply ends up looking like the pre-accident Thing.
Doom is nonplussed, and goes around freaking out at mirrors and his surprised servants, as only Cage can. Then they encounter each other, and there's a hilarious scuffle culminating in the Thing yelling- 'Ok face- it's clobbering time!'hoooaaauuuhhooooeeouh!
And headbutting Doom. Reed reverses it, and Doom quietly returns to his base intent on eradicating all pictures of the event.
I'm with you here but.... what if..... we switch things up and have Nick Cage play ALL the characters as well. Just think of THAT!
Alpharius wrote: there's still a chance that Doom will be portrayed well here, right?
I'm not convinced. But then my idea of Doom done well requires him to:
- have proper armour, not some flesh-metal rubbish
- have an army of DOOMBOTS!
- be the ruler of Latveria
- be able to threaten war against the USA because he knows he'll win!
- preferably be a powerful sorcerer as per the comics
So perhaps I'm never going to be happy with movie-Doom. Although I think they could pull it off in the MCU where there's a wider context, rather than a smaller setting focused just on the F4.
So, back on topic here - there's still a chance that Doom will be portrayed well here, right?
Honestly, the guy who did Doom in the Alba/Evans/Glenn/Chiklis FF was alright. Just laughably awful script.
Also Para: I thought he wasn't really a magic user- just a guy with awesome tech? I mean sure he does make use of magical items etc but I wouldn't class him as a sorcerer.
I'm pretty sure there have been times he's been considered a significantly powerful sorcerer. Either through stolen powers, teaching by other villains or his magical heritage (his mother was a witch).
From Wikipedia:
Doctor Doom also possesses originally minor mystical capabilities due to teachings from Tibetan monks, but later increased them to a considerable extent due to tutoring from his lover Morgan Le Fay. He is capable of energy projection, creating protective shields, and summoning hordes of demonic creatures. Even at a time his abilities were consistently referred to as minor, with assistance from his technology and by tag-teaming with Doctor Strange, Doctor Doom managed to come second in a magic tournament held by the ancient sorcerer the Aged Genghis
But I can't see that coming into play in what's been repeatedly called a 'hard sci-fi' F4, though. In the MCU they could certainly fit it in. Tech from Stark, magic from Thor and Strange, powers from Erskine's/Banner's work, they could easily set up a 'proper' Doom without drastically changing the tone of the setting.
*looks mournfully into the middle distance and considers how awesome Doom could be in the MCU Phase 4*
Evans and the dude playing Doom were all that made the last two FF movies watchable.
For this film while no one in the main cast is a ""household" name you've got Kate Mara (Invisible Woman) who's done a ton of good to excellent TV and movies. Teller (Mr. Fantastic) who has done some solid work and who had excellent chemistry with Jordan in a previous film. And Jordan (Human Torch) has been good in everything I've seen him in. Belle (Thing) is the only one I didn't recognize as someone I like watching and then I looked up his IMDB and realized that he's been in quite a bit I enjoy. I didn't recognize him from Turn in the previews.
Overall I actually think this group is better on the acting level than the previous group (which was massively hampered by the script). But we'll see. I'm more excited for this than Bat v Supe.
Alpharius wrote: there's still a chance that Doom will be portrayed well here, right?
I'm not convinced. But then my idea of Doom done well requires him to:
- have proper armour, not some flesh-metal rubbish
- have an army of DOOMBOTS!
- be the ruler of Latveria
- be able to threaten war against the USA because he knows he'll win!
- preferably be a powerful sorcerer as per the comics
So perhaps I'm never going to be happy with movie-Doom. Although I think they could pull it off in the MCU where there's a wider context, rather than a smaller setting focused just on the F4.
Jordan, from the previews, doesn't make me imagine Johnny Storm in ANY way, shape, or form. Ok, so the director likes him. Great. But that doesn't make him fit the role. Evans made the role. Evans was a perfect Johnny Storm. Say what you will about the old FF movie, but he was perfectly cast. This? This movie is going to bomb. Horribly. Best thing about this is the CGI for Thing. That's good. Everything else looks like crap.
timetowaste85 wrote: Jordan, from the previews, doesn't make me imagine Johnny Storm in ANY way, shape, or form. Ok, so the director likes him. Great. But that doesn't make him fit the role. Evans made the role. Evans was a perfect Johnny Storm. Say what you will about the old FF movie, but he was perfectly cast. This? This movie is going to bomb. Horribly. Best thing about this is the CGI for Thing. That's good. Everything else looks like crap.
While I agree that Jordan isn't going to be able to be better than Evans that's because Evans is the PERFECT fit for that role (as he is for any cocky and smart ass role, similar to Ryan Renolds(sp?)). Period, end of story. But I feel like the overall group is much stronger than the first group. I think this will do fine. I don't think it's going to put up amazing numbers but I can see it going well for them.
timetowaste85 wrote: Jordan, from the previews, doesn't make me imagine Johnny Storm in ANY way, shape, or form. Ok, so the director likes him. Great. But that doesn't make him fit the role. Evans made the role. Evans was a perfect Johnny Storm. Say what you will about the old FF movie, but he was perfectly cast. This? This movie is going to bomb. Horribly. Best thing about this is the CGI for Thing. That's good. Everything else looks like crap.
Looking back, I have to agree with you about Johnny. Mr. Fantastic and Susan Storm were okay to meh, but I actually liked the non-CGI thing. That was genuinely impressive makeup. The only downside was that he looked pretty restrained at times.
cincydooley wrote: Is it going head to head with anything more exciting?
According to the NYT:
August 7
Cop Car
Kevin Bacon stars as a sheriff who is not pleased when two boys steal an abandoned police car and take it for a joy ride. A thriller directed by Jon Watts.
The Cut
This Turkish drama, set a century ago, travels from Mesopotamia to Cuba to North Dakota. A young blacksmith (Tahar Rahim) survives the 1915 Armenian genocide, becomes a forced laborer and tries to track down his daughters. Fatih Akin wrote the screenplay, with Mardik Martin (“Raging Bull,” “Mean Streets”), and directed.
The Diary of a Teenage Girl
In 1976 San Francisco, every teenager finds herself in her own way. Minnie (Bel Powley) doesn’t rebel against her party-loving mother (Kristen Wiig) directly; she just has an affair with Mom’s handsome boyfriend (Alexander Skarsgard). Based on Phoebe Gloeckner’s graphic novel and directed by Marielle Heller.
Fantastic Four
Marvel’s longest-running, most dysfunctional group of superheroes. This reboot stars Miles Teller as Mr. Fantastic, Kate Mara as the Invisible Woman, Michael B. Jordan as the Human Torch and Jamie Bell as the Thing, all of whom got their superpowers during a teleportation experiment gone wrong. Now they must team up to save the world from Dr. Doom (Toby Kebbell). Josh Trank directed.
Photo
Kate Mara as Sue Storm in “Fantastic Four.” Credit Ben Rothstein
The Great Man (“Le Grand Homme”)
From France, a tale of the Foreign Legion and the urge to do the right thing. Jérémie Renier and Surho Sugaipov star as 21st-century Legionnaires in Afghanistan. Sarah Leonor directed.
Kahlil Gibran’s The Prophet
Salma Hayek produced and stars in this animated feature that combines the poetry of “The Prophet,” first published in 1923, with sequences directed by nine animators, including Bill Plympton.
Masterminds
A heist comedy starring Zach Galifianakis, Kristen Wiig and Owen Wilson. It’s the tale of a bored armored-car driver (Mr. Galifianakis) who is lured into a scheme and manages to steal $17 million in cash before things fall apart in ridiculous ways. Jared Hess (“Napoleon Dynamite”) directed. Jason Sudeikis is the strange hit man.
Meru
It’s a peak in the Himalayas, almost 22,000 feet tall, and this documentary follows the three climbers who first conquered it. Directed by Jimmy Chin and Elizabeth Chai Vasarhelyi.
The New Girlfriend
It’s bad enough for Claire (Anaïs Demoustier) when her best friend dies. It’s stressful enough when she tries to live up to her promise to watch over the friend’s husband and baby for the rest of their lives. It’s awkward when she finds the handsome husband (Romain Duris, from “Chinese Puzzle” and “Heartbreaker”) looking lovely in women’s clothes, which his wife was fine with — as long as it was in the privacy of their own home. This is the latest from François Ozon, and its genre is a matter of opinion. (Farce-drama hybrid is one suggestion.) Mr. Duris was nominated for a César for the role.
Ricki and the Flash
Meryl Streep picks up a guitar and the title role in this musical comic drama about a woman who sought rock-star fame and now must face her family. Kevin Kline is the husband she left behind; Audra McDonald is his new wife; Ms. Streep’s daughter Mamie Gummer plays her daughter; and Rick Springfield is a band mate. Directed by Jonathan Demme (“The Silence of the Lambs”) from a screenplay by Diablo Cody (“Juno”).
Rosenwald
Julius Rosenwald (1862-1932) was a high school dropout who became chief executive of Sears, Roebuck. He also directed an enormous amount of philanthropy toward African-American causes. This documentary, from Aviva Kempner, includes interviews with Maya Angelou, Julian Bond and George C. Wolfe.
Tom at the Farm (“Tom à la Ferme”)
From Canada, a psychological thriller about being the gay lover your boyfriend’s family didn’t know about. At the funeral, he meets his dead boyfriend’s extremely crazy brother (Pierre-Yves Cardinal). Xavier Dolan wrote (with Michel Marc Bouchard), directed and stars as Tom.
So, back on topic here - there's still a chance that Doom will be portrayed well here, right?
Honestly, the guy who did Doom in the Alba/Evans/Glenn/Chiklis FF was alright. Just laughably awful script.
Also Para: I thought he wasn't really a magic user- just a guy with awesome tech? I mean sure he does make use of magical items etc but I wouldn't class him as a sorcerer.
I agree with the Doom actor as well. It was the only really good thing in that movie and I mean really good compared to how crap the script was. Bad scripts will make anyone/anything look bad. Just look at the Star Wars Episodes 1-3 there were some really talented actors in those movies but the movies were very flat and dull due to bad scripts and terrible directing.
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Flashman wrote: No. of trailer views on Youtube is a good indication of potential film box office.
Jurassic World = 73 million views
Pitch Perfect 2 = 35 million views (remember this out performed Mad Max: Fury Road in it's opening weekend)
Suicide Squad (trailer only out for a week, film a year away from release) = 6 million views
Fantastic Four = 4 million views
My prediction is that it won't exactly set the world on fire. The interest doesn't appear to be there.
That's because the last two crap fests were only a few years ago. People remember
Since this thread has only been inactive for about 2 and a bit weeks I'm guessing it's fine to discuss the movie in it rather than clutter the forum by making a separate thread?
Anyway, just came back from a pre-screening (not sure it's really worthy of being called a pre-screening consider the movie is released here in about 12 hours but anyway) and my though are that this movie exists, and that's about it really.
Disclaimer: I don't know much about the Fantastic 4 outside of the two terrible movies from the early 2000s, so take that as you will.
Without spoiling it...
Really, not much happens. The first hour is basically just introducing the characters (Von Doom and the F4) and showing how they got their powers (in a way I felt wasn't as bad as the bizarre gas cloud).
Then we get to the ending... Doom basically shows up as a villain and is defeated in about 10 minutes. And not even just 10 minutes in viewing time, but in 10 minutes movie-time, too. The whole fight felt a bit rushed and yet again amazingly powerful villain doesn't use their full power against the heroes because reasons (the movie didn't even try to explain it). Also they wasted a big villain... again.
Also that ending scene before the credits... maybe it's just me but it felt flat and cheesy and the acting wasn't as good as in the rest of the movie.
Aside from that, it was a visually beautiful movie.
Potential spoilery-spoiler stuff:
Spoiler:
I don't entirely understand why Ben/Thing was there when the F4 and Doom got their powers... Sure they introduced him as Reed's best friend and showed him helping him with his school science fair stuff, but then he disappears from the rest of the film until Doom/Torch/Reed get drunk and decide to use their sciency inter-dimensional transport machine. Reed calls him in the middle of the night and he seems to just show up in a few minutes... which considering the machine is in the inner city and Ben/Thing lives in the outer suburbs is a bit short... I doubt even a drunk Doom/Torch would wait 30-60 min for some guy Reed knows that they've never met to turn up to do some drunk science.
Also to expand on the Doom fight scene, he was shown to have the power to boil blood, makes heads explode, cause people to smash their heads against walls and make people lose consciousness just by looking at them and then not a minute later opts to just throw rocks at the F4 instead... he also decides not to restrain Reed and instead just causse him to lose control of his powers (somehow... it just kinda happens) and then Reed through the power of not-wanting-my-friends-to-die regains his powers and punches Doom. Then the F4 work together and kill Doom as if it was nothing...
Really the whole fight wasn't that well thought out...
So...Doom gets drunk with Reed and Johnny. Doom. Gets. Drunk. Right...and then he "slums it" with two people beneath him. Then let's go ahead and imagine Reed actually drinks, and Johnny is a scientist and not just some hotshot brother tagging along with his sister and father who are the real scientists.
As expected from the trailers and film discussion, pretty pictures and an awful story and premise. If you want Marvel to get back the rights, please skip this movie in theaters and wait until you can rent it if you HAVE to see it. Maybe we'll get a better one in 2020 from Marvel.
Sadly, that's almost required knowledge up front in terms of 'trusting' reviews these days.
Oh like I remember. Instead I'll give you a link to Rotten Tomatoes collection of "Top Critics" reviews, all of which are bad. I'm sure the two I saw were one of those four.
Sadly, that's almost required knowledge up front in terms of 'trusting' reviews these days.
Oh like I remember. Instead I'll give you a link to Rotten Tomatoes collection of "Top Critics" reviews, all of which are bad. I'm sure the two I saw were one of those four.
Honestly, I want to point and laugh at anyone who goes to the theater and sees this. The reviews are bad, the discussion from someone on here who saw it, and the trailer did a grand job of two things: showing they didn't have a clue about the characters personas, and making Thing look good. That's it. I feel sorry for anyone who wasted time on this piece of garbage. Sounds like it'll make the Iain, Alba, Evans and Chicklis version rock by comparison. Pun intended.
timetowaste85 wrote: Honestly, I want to point and laugh at anyone who goes to the theater and sees this. The reviews are bad, the discussion from someone on here who saw it, and the trailer did a grand job of two things: showing they didn't have a clue about the characters personas, and making Thing look good. That's it. I feel sorry for anyone who wasted time on this piece of garbage. Sounds like it'll make the Iain, Alba, Evans and Chicklis version rock by comparison. Pun intended.
Schadenfreude - the Uncoolest of Allegedly Cool Things.
As a big Fantastic Four fan, I'm not happy that this is, apparently, not a very good movie at all.
Given they seem hell bent on holding onto the license I was hoping this would be good.
I guess it's back to hoping this does so badly they just let it go back to Marvel. As the MCU is moving into a more galactic arena it would be nice to have them available.
timetowaste85 wrote: Honestly, I want to point and laugh at anyone who goes to the theater and sees this. The reviews are bad, the discussion from someone on here who saw it, and the trailer did a grand job of two things: showing they didn't have a clue about the characters personas, and making Thing look good. That's it. I feel sorry for anyone who wasted time on this piece of garbage. Sounds like it'll make the Iain, Alba, Evans and Chicklis version rock by comparison. Pun intended.
Schadenfreude - the Uncoolest of Allegedly Cool Things.
As a big Fantastic Four fan, I'm not happy that this is, apparently, not a very good movie at all.
I would LIKE to see a good Fantastic Four movie. But after everything I've seen, this certainly won't be it. Your best hope for a good one was to appreciate the last one or wait for Marvel to get it back.
Told my friend I'm going to go see Ant Man this weekend out of spite to give Disney/Marvel more money towards their acquisition of the FF rights when this movie tanks
timetowaste85 wrote: So...Doom gets drunk with Reed and Johnny. Doom. Gets. Drunk. Right...and then he "slums it" with two people beneath him. Then let's go ahead and imagine Reed actually drinks, and Johnny is a scientist and not just some hotshot brother tagging along with his sister and father who are the real scientists.
As expected from the trailers and film discussion, pretty pictures and an awful story and premise. If you want Marvel to get back the rights, please skip this movie in theaters and wait until you can rent it if you HAVE to see it. Maybe we'll get a better one in 2020 from Marvel.
Yep, though at this point Doom isn't evil and is friends with them...
Also this is apparently the first time Reed has ever drunk before, which makes it remarkable that he's holding his drink as well as Johnny and Doom...
At least you can be happy the Johnny isn't a scientist, he's there because his Dad told him he won't get his car back after he trashes it unless he works for him on the big project Doom, Susan and Reed are working on. How making a car makes him certified to science and not blow something up beats me though.
In that case as a character you'll be majorly disappointed with movie-Doom. He doesn't really act like he's better than anyone at all, except maybe the first scene he's in (and even that that's more of a "Eh those kids you've got working with you aren't as good as me *shrug*")
Matt.Kingsley wrote: In that case as a character you'll be majorly disappointed with movie-Doom. He doesn't really act like he's better than anyone at all, except maybe the first scene he's in (and even that that's more of a "Eh those kids you've got working with you aren't as good as me *shrug*")
Another misstep in the name of being 'edgy' and 'relevant'.
I guess I'm really bummed by the fact that this train wreck will equal yet another 'disappointing' Fantastic Four Movie and Box Office and this time, it will probably also mean a good 10 to 20 years before they get another shot.
By then, the rights will have hopefully reverted back to Marvel.
And then all those awesome characters will be available to be showcased in actual good, fun movies.
Signed,
A Bitter and Disappointed (again) Fantastic Four Fan
Ouze wrote: Whatever happens, Doctor Doom is one of the greatest villains ever. Bro punkd the Beyonder.
If you only saw movies/TV stuff one would have no idea of what you are talking about.
I know man... I know.
Ghost Rider has the same problem. One of the most powerful characters in the Marvel Universe, with some of the best limited series ever, and all most people know of him is the two godawful movies.
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Alpharius wrote: A Bitter and Disappointed (again) Fantastic Four Fan
I'm sorry that this is the way it looks like it is. :/
Down to 8% as of now. This may actually qualify as the worst marvel movie made to date. I do feel bad for everyone who got their hopes up...this movie really took the piss. Still hoping we get a Marvel studios version soon. I pray to God Fox doesn't make a sequel.
All the previous FF movies were rated higher, as well as the general consensus "stinkers" that were daredevil, Elektra, wolverine origins and X3. Ouch. This IS the worst marvel movie yet. Wait, let me check Howard the Duck.
Yup. HtD got a 14%. This is the worst yet. Sorry Alph.
I did too. But the general opinion was that it stunk. I also liked the Evans/Alba FF movies. I thought they were fine: the actors NAILED the roles they were cast for. Well, except Alba. She was a bit OTT-Sue is usually calmer. But the Johnny/Ben interactions were flawless. I'm sure if I went back and rewatched I could pick out plenty of issues. But all minor stuff. I can forgive a crap story if the characters are at least believable. And visuals...imagine if we had Chicklis in this new Thing costume/CGI thing. That's the only thing I feel it really fell short on the visuals with.
At first I was not very enthused for this Movie after seeing a poster. I'm sorry but Johnny Storm just looked like unnecessary tokenism and it just seemed like a bad sign. Then I saw the trailer...and it got my hope up a bit. It looked like maybe they might surprise everyone. But now Rotten Tomatoes has the film at 10%....I don't agree with Rotten Tomatoes 100% of the time but ya....90% chance this movie is bad. :(
I mean this movie was mediocre and bad, but I don't think it's 10% bad,
I at least think it was marginally better than the previous 2 FF movies. Then again I haven't watch those since they came out in cinemas, so perhaps I'm just not remembering the redeeming parts of those movies.
I think I'm gonna watch the first of the two best FF movies tonight. You know, the first one that featured Captain America as one of the FF. The obnoxious one. Johnny, I think his name was. Where the team feels like a family. Not an abomination.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Currently watching the Evans/Alba/Chicklas/Iain movie. Gotten to the point they return to the Baxter building. It still has the heart of the FF comics, and has EVERYTHING the new one is said to lack. Reeds science talk. Johnny's arrogance and childish delight at his (mis)fortune, the family ties, reasons for Doom hating Reed and eventually the rest of the team...only issue I've seen so far is the long lasting antagonism of the lost love story between Reed and Sue. That's about it.
DarthDiggler wrote: When I want to watch a good FF film I watch the Incredibles.
True!
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Alpharius wrote: Most reviews seem to be saying that a lot of what is good and fun about the FF, and superhero movies in general, just isn't in the movie.
Apparently 'grim and gritty' got all over everything here and ended up resulting in...boring.
Because, at the end of the day, the Fantastic Four are NOT all about grim and gritty.
KamikazeCanuck wrote: I actually didn't mind the second one. They made Silver Surfer pretty cool.
The 2nd FF movie was pretty good - until Galactus showed up in 'cloud form' only!
You mean Ultimate Galactus? They pulled him straight from the Ultimate comic line. The movies together were a mashup of regular FF and Ultimate FF. Basically, the team/family was regular comics, villains were more out of the Ultimate lineup. The cloud form of Galactus and Doom's metal body instead of a suit of armor are straight out of Ultimate FF. It's not the version of Galactus I wanted...but it's accurate. In an alternate version.
KamikazeCanuck wrote: I actually didn't mind the second one. They made Silver Surfer pretty cool.
The 2nd FF movie was pretty good - until Galactus showed up in 'cloud form' only!
Actually I don't have a problem with that. Although we are used to him...he's pretty silly looking. I don't think a giant man in purple tights would have gone over well in movie form.
Alpharius wrote: It wouldn't have been hard at all to just have the 'classic' Galactus in silhouette in the cloud, and it would have played a lot better.
At one point they show the helmet in silhouette inside the cloud when Surfer is getting closer to the core.
I saw this last night. I posted my thoughts on Facebook immediately after getting home, which ran as follows:
"Fantastic Four is a most odd movie. It wasn't bad; it didn't insult me with its stupid writing. The main characters were well written and acted. It just wasn't a complete movie. They forgot to add the third act, where, you know, stuff happens that makes you feel excited. The feeling that I had upon leaving the movie theatre was a kind of dull surprise, a boredom that wasn't quite acute enough to turn into anger. For a movie with four superheroes in it, it seemed determined to avoid exciting action sequences and instead pretend to be some kind of science fiction horror effort, but without any real scares. The main bad guy has about five minutes of screen time, and that consists of two conversations and a single fight scene with the heroes, to whom he barely spoke. But this movie had enough well acted and entertaining moments to hold my early interest... until slowly I realised that there was no actual plot, just a bunch of well-acted scenes playing out until an abrupt ending.
Very odd. Most confusing film I've seen for a while. It kind of reminds me of an episode of Star Trek."
Not much. When the Surfer goes into the core of the storm and tells Galactus he doesn't want to do this anymore they show that briefly, but it isn't for very long.
DarthDiggler wrote: When I want to watch a good FF film I watch the Incredibles.
NOW thats true. I'd love to see a new one of those or Monsters vs. Aliens. May have to rewatch MvA this weekend, with some nice SoCo on the rocks and popcorn.
Galactus's silhouette shows up in the cloud when it passes Saturn too. But, I think Fox decided their take on a big planet eating god in pink and purple would have looked hokey and campy, and chose the alternate version that was still comic accurate. Otherwise you might have gotten the Tick version of Galactus. Which was just silly. So, I think you got the Ultimate cloud form to avoid looking pants on head. Not everything can translate well from comic to screen. I'm sure they CGI tested both ways and went with the more mature looking option. Yes, I'm currently defending the studio that gave us X3 and Wolverine Origins. But I understand why they went cloud form.
timetowaste85 wrote: Galactus's silhouette shows up in the cloud when it passes Saturn too. But, I think Fox decided their take on a big planet eating god in pink and purple would have looked hokey and campy, and chose the alternate version that was still comic accurate. Otherwise you might have gotten the Tick version of Galactus. Which was just silly. So, I think you got the Ultimate cloud form to avoid looking pants on head. Not everything can translate well from comic to screen. I'm sure they CGI tested both ways and went with the more mature looking option. Yes, I'm currently defending the studio that gave us X3 and Wolverine Origins. But I understand why they went cloud form.
Exactly. Though Tick version of Galactus was pretty awesome in its own way too....
Charles Rampant wrote: I saw this last night. I posted my thoughts on Facebook immediately after getting home, which ran as follows:
"Fantastic Four is a most odd movie. It wasn't bad; it didn't insult me with its stupid writing. The main characters were well written and acted. It just wasn't a complete movie. They forgot to add the third act, where, you know, stuff happens that makes you feel excited. The feeling that I had upon leaving the movie theatre was a kind of dull surprise, a boredom that wasn't quite acute enough to turn into anger. For a movie with four superheroes in it, it seemed determined to avoid exciting action sequences and instead pretend to be some kind of science fiction horror effort, but without any real scares. The main bad guy has about five minutes of screen time, and that consists of two conversations and a single fight scene with the heroes, to whom he barely spoke. But this movie had enough well acted and entertaining moments to hold my early interest... until slowly I realised that there was no actual plot, just a bunch of well-acted scenes playing out until an abrupt ending.
Very odd. Most confusing film I've seen for a while. It kind of reminds me of an episode of Star Trek."
This is very similar to my experience seeing the movie. I took my brother, who is 11, and even he came out of the movie a little bored and confused.
I wouldn't have seen this in theaters, except the wife really, REALLY wanted to see a movie, and Ant Man didn't have a show time we could go to and still make day care pick up times.
Anyhow... I personally think it was better than the Alba movies, but that's not really saying much. There are thematic and plot elements that I would have done much, much more different from the way they did.
Best part of the movie, at least for me, was that there was an Ep. 7 trailer, and the Deadpool "green band" trailer played
I'm disappointed by all of you who saw this in theaters and let Fox think this movie might be worthy of a sequel. You need to self flagellate yourselves for a week or two.
Also, the viewers have torn it apart too. It got a 30% from audiences. That's really bad. The audience is usually much nicer than the critics.
timetowaste85 wrote: I'm disappointed by all of you who saw this in theaters and let Fox think this movie might be worthy of a sequel. You need to self flagellate yourselves for a week or two.
I think the thing is.... for all the negative press it's gotten, and how "spoiled" we've all become with MCU movies being so awesome, yeah, it makes sense to hate on this.
The biggest sticking points, pre-release were having a black johnny storm.... After watching the movie, while it may not fit the best with the original, outdated, source materials, they actually made him work pretty damn well in this movie.
It isn't really a bad movie per se, but it definitely isn't a good/great movie. It is, IMHO, decidedly mediocre.
Honestly I wouldn't mind it if Fox attempted to make a sequel, as long as they realise what they did wrong (introducing and killing the villain way too quickly, 0 action for most the movie, too much time spent on the characters doing nothing at all) and fix it.
F4 showed promise, it just lacked all the action one expects from a superhero movie.
timetowaste85 wrote: I'm disappointed by all of you who saw this in theaters and let Fox think this movie might be worthy of a sequel. You need to self flagellate yourselves for a week or two.
The biggest sticking points, pre-release were having a black johnny storm.... After watching the movie, while it may not fit the best with the original, outdated, source materials, they actually made him work pretty damn well in this movie.
The audience reviews suggested there was no familial chemistry between Sue and Johnny. Reports that they did not work as brother and sister. I hate to belabor a point, but...I told you guys it was a terrible idea. And according to audience review at least, I was right.
Oh, remember when I suggested any of the other three males being black instead of Johnny? And everyone said "it can't be the Thing, it would be calling all black people monsters" and "it can't be Doom, because that'll be saying black people are evil!" Well...let's not forget that nobody batted an eye when Kingpin was portrayed by a black guy. One of the awesomest guys to ever grace Hollywood, Michael Clark Duncan. So that argument should have been stuffed where the sun don't shine. And Thing/Ben Grimm is the soul of the team. Johnny may be fun, and Reed and Sue are the main protagonists, but Thing is the most human and important member on the team. I find it hard to believe in 2015 we're worried about offending an entire ethnicity by giving a movie role to someone where they can fit properly, not by shoehorning someone into a role that makes no sense.
Anyway, I'll let that go, at this point. The reviews are in, and it seems enough people agree with my assessment to suggest the idiot director screwed up. There is no sense of family, no sense of bonding, and a black dude was put in a role "just because we need a black guy".
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Honestly I wouldn't mind it if Fox attempted to make a sequel, as long as they realise what they did wrong (introducing and killing the villain way too quickly, 0 action for most the movie, too much time spent on the characters doing nothing at all) and fix it.
F4 showed promise, it just lacked all the action one expects from a superhero movie.
I agree:
Spoiler:
While it is entirely possible that Doom somehow didn't die, despite all onscreen cues that he did... I agree that it's way too fast for what is ultimately, the FF's version of the Joker. Doom is literally the MOST iconic villain that they have, maybe the most iconic of nearly all Marvel IPs, I dunno.
I think that if they had, instead used the douchey "corporate" guy as the main badguy things could have worked much better... End of movie 1, the Corporate suit is killed/destroyed/in jail, but in the process, the heroes (including Doom) accidentally destroy the shuttle. Movie 2, at the beginning of the movie, there's some big tiff, and Doom and the gang have a falling out, the Fantastics become the Fantastic Four that we know, Doom takes over some eastern European country, and calls it Latveria, but in reality he is attempting to rebuild a shuttle by himself., cliffhanger ending. Movie 3, the fantastic four spend most of the movie hopelessly lost, until Reed gives his famous "none of us can defeat him by ourselves, but together we're all stronger than he is" speech, and Doom dies. Or perhaps the big fight is interrupted by a super fast silvery dude that is riding what appears to be a surf board.
timetowaste85 wrote: I'm disappointed by all of you who saw this in theaters and let Fox think this movie might be worthy of a sequel. You need to self flagellate yourselves for a week or two.
I think the thing is.... for all the negative press it's gotten, and how "spoiled" we've all become with MCU movies being so awesome, yeah, it makes sense to hate on this.
The biggest sticking points, pre-release were having a black johnny storm.... After watching the movie, while it may not fit the best with the original, outdated, source materials, they actually made him work pretty damn well in this movie.
It isn't really a bad movie per se, but it definitely isn't a good/great movie. It is, IMHO, decidedly mediocre.
I thought it was bat man and robin bad. Infact this movie tried to be too serious and It lost me half the time. Man this movie wasn't that good.
timetowaste85 wrote: I'm disappointed by all of you who saw this in theaters and let Fox think this movie might be worthy of a sequel. You need to self flagellate yourselves for a week or two.
The biggest sticking points, pre-release were having a black johnny storm.... After watching the movie, while it may not fit the best with the original, outdated, source materials, they actually made him work pretty damn well in this movie.
The audience reviews suggested there was no familial chemistry between Sue and Johnny. Reports that they did not work as brother and sister. I hate to belabor a point, but...I told you guys it was a terrible idea. And according to audience review at least, I was right.
Oh, remember when I suggested any of the other three males being black instead of Johnny? And everyone said "it can't be the Thing, it would be calling all black people monsters" and "it can't be Doom, because that'll be saying black people are evil!" Well...let's not forget that nobody batted an eye when Kingpin was portrayed by a black guy. One of the awesomest guys to ever grace Hollywood, Michael Clark Duncan. So that argument should have been stuffed where the sun don't shine. And Thing/Ben Grimm is the soul of the team. Johnny may be fun, and Reed and Sue are the main protagonists, but Thing is the most human and important member on the team. I find it hard to believe in 2015 we're worried about offending an entire ethnicity by giving a movie role to someone where they can fit properly, not by shoehorning someone into a role that makes no sense.
Anyway, I'll let that go, at this point. The reviews are in, and it seems enough people agree with my assessment to suggest the idiot director screwed up. There is no sense of family, no sense of bonding, and a black dude was put in a role "just because we need a black guy".
The whole Johnny Storm thing has really brought out the worst in a lot of interest commentators. As someone in a mixed race marriage, I found it all quite disappointing.
I would say that the Storm siblings never had chemistry because they never had any actual scenes together. Really, an enormous amount of this film was people looking at computer screens and walking around a lab. Kate Mara was criminally underused; not only did the film fail the Beschdale test, it also contrived to leave her character behind when they all went to another dimension, and made sure to use her as an object of desire for Reed Richards and Victor von Doom to fight over. (A love triangle that, perhaps mercifully, the film didn't bother developing.) She basically served as a token women for dialogue scenes, and with superpowers as a taxi for the rest of the cast. So yeah, the siblings might not have looked like they had a brother and sister relationship, but that is more to do with the choices of scenes than with anything to do with the actors and their chemistry.
Spoiler:
What was up with the whole Reed Richards runs away thing, anyway? It didn't advance the plot any; it didn't give any more depth to the characters than the original accident did. The chekov's shuttle that Richards was building got resolutely left on the wall. Did that somehow tie into a missing third act element where they use that to get to the other world and fight Doom? I just don't understand.
My current theory is that they didn't actually finish making the film. They got halfway through and went, "Shall we go for lunch?" And then they forgot to come back and finish filming. Jokes aside, they actually did reshoots after main filming wrapped; how bad did it look before they did that?!
I'm most sad that Dr Doom has been messed up again considering he's one of my favourite comic book characters
I do wonder if there's going to be loads more scene on the blue ray which got dropped for theatrical release to cut it down to it's current length, and they decided to drop the plot rather than the origin stuff?
When I checked Rotten Tomatoes before, I forgot to rank it against Ghost Rider 1&2. Both of those were rated higher. This is officially the worst rated Marvel themed comic book movie made. If you gave money to it, may God have mercy upon your soul. I honestly feel Josh Trank should be held on charges for attempted murder: he has actively tried to kill the marvel cinematic universe.
I don't even feel that counts as an opinion. Pretty sure it's actually a fact at this point. I hope the cast has the decency to be embarrassed at the absolute steaming pile they helped create in order to keep the rights away from Marvel. They should all make a public apology and refuse to return for a sequel, if such trash is permitted to come to fruition.
timetowaste85 wrote: he has actively tried to kill the marvel cinematic universe.
Nah. Unless there's some dramatic turnaround on the profit front for this film (unlikely!), he just handed the MCU rights to Doom, Galactus, Annihilus, the Silver Surfer... Oh, and the F4, but really the villains are the main asset to Marvel. They need someone to top Thanos in Phase 4+, and if they get the F4 rights back that opens up all the above. Throw in Osborn from the Spidey licence and Magneto remains the only A-list villain the MCU can't use!
I don't even feel that counts as an opinion. Pretty sure it's actually a fact at this point. I hope the cast has the decency to be embarrassed at the absolute steaming pile they helped create in order to keep the rights away from Marvel. They should all make a public apology and refuse to return for a sequel, if such trash is permitted to come to fruition.
The same cast that, until the premier, hadn't actually seen a finished cut of the film? They all seemed rather unenthusiastic in an interview I saw the other day, I'm not sure they really realised/cared/knew just how bad this would turn out to be.
Interestingly, the director tweeted (and then deleted) something of an 'apology' earlier. I can't recall the exact wording, but it was something about how this version of the film was actually not one he liked, and that a few months ago (before reshoots?) he actually had a version that he considered much better... Make of that what you will...
I also read he got kicked off set and other people finished slapping the film together because he(Trank) is such an asshat. Glad he got booted from Star Wars.
Common Sense Translation: "my movie bombed, but it's everyone else's fault cuz they fired me. I had better ideas, but you'll never know!"
TTW's translation: "I'm an asshat that expects people to see my trashy film because I borrowed some well known names. It flopped and I choose to blame everyone else".
timetowaste85 wrote: Common Sense Translation: "my movie bombed, but it's everyone else's fault cuz they fired me. I had better ideas, but you'll never know!"
TTW's translation: "I'm an asshat that expects people to see my trashy film because I borrowed some well known names. It flopped and I choose to blame everyone else".
Also he showed up to work high and drunk sometimes. I am pretty sure he is just bitter it didn't do well.
It's interesting to watch this film get lower ratings than other Marvel films (like Elektra, which was awful!).
Hopefully Marvel will allow Fox to make an X-Men TV show... in exchange for the Fantastic Four 4. The MCU needs someone after Thanos is dealt with, I don't think Dormmamu will cut it, and Doom/Galactus/Kang are tied up with the F4 rites, so Marvel need 'em back.
That test is not only meaningless, but was never meant to be taken seriously. Furthermore there are some terrible exploitative films that pass that test, and a number of what some would call 'cinematic art' films that fail it hard.
I am shocked, shocked I tell you that this tanked. They had in their hot little hands a property that was known to most of the movie going population by the two gakky movies they’d already released. And to lead their reboot they’d manage to secure an actress we all knew as a secondary character on a well received tv show. And also three other guys!
H.B.M.C. wrote: Marvel made a movie about a Treeman and a talking Raccoon led by some random TV actor.
“Made by the producers who brought you…” actually matters when they can follow with a list including The Avengers, Iron Man etc… Marvel have got to a point where they can make whatever they want and know there's trust there that fans will line up no matter how silly the concept, or who is starring.
If this had come through the Marvel banner then the casting wouldn’t have mattered. But Fantastic Four doesn’t have that, and instead it’s got to rely on it’s own brand and star power. It’s own brand is shot to pieces, because holy crap those previous two movies were terrible, so that leaves star power. And uh, yeah, the biggest name was a secondary character on a tv show.
Even if this film was good it would have struggled.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
timetowaste85 wrote: This. It's the difference between a good director/studio and a walking pile of rabid bear feces.*
Thing is, you can’t really know if a film is good before you see it. Reviews matter, but plenty of films do very well despite good reviews, and plenty of others do very poor business despite great reviews. Word of mouth is nice but very few films actually sustain their box office – most films get almost all their business long before word of mouth has had a significant effect. So the actual quality of the film matters, but at least as important is people’s belief of whether it will be good.
That perception is shaped by a whole lot of things, and typically the biggest has been star power – people go to see a film because the lead actors are liked and known for good movies. Another factor that’s growing in importance is franchise power, either in terms of sequels, or shared universes like Marvel.
And on those two key factors, this new Fantastic Four movie was always in a whole lot of trouble. Even if it had been good, or somehow even really good, it was never going to do business close to any of the weaker Marvel releases.
“Made by the producers who brought you…” actually matters when they can follow with a list including The Avengers, Iron Man etc… Marvel have got to a point where they can make whatever they want and know there's trust there that fans will line up no matter how silly the concept, or who is starring.
Cue Ant-Man as "exhibit A" for that latter bit. I think it was probably helped a deal by having Paul Rudd and Michael Douglas in it. But the fact still remains that there's really not too many people outside of the comic book fandom who had actually heard of Ant-Man until this movie.
Ensis Ferrae wrote: Cue Ant-Man as "exhibit A" for that latter bit. I think it was probably helped a deal by having Paul Rudd and Michael Douglas in it. But the fact still remains that there's really not too many people outside of the comic book fandom who had actually heard of Ant-Man until this movie.
Yeah, Marvel got people to turn in large numbers to see Ant Man and Guardians of the Galaxy. They've got something kind of incredible going on.
It helps them that their brand is consistently high quality as well. The audiences feel that 'Marvel' is a brand that they can trust. I think that they will keep that brand alive through some bad films, but not through very many bad films.
That test is not only meaningless, but was never meant to be taken seriously. Furthermore there are some terrible exploitative films that pass that test, and a number of what some would call 'cinematic art' films that fail it hard.
Sure, some solidly inclusive films fail it. But really, it is painfully easy to pass that test if you want to, and I cited it along with several other factors relating to the misuse of the character and actress. The point is not that it failed the test, and thus it was bad; the point is that, with the way that the script worked, Kate Mara's character was mostly pointless and could have been removed without actually changing the plot much. This includes her barely existent dialogue with either her brother, or any of the other women in the film (all... one of them). Which is sad.
Marvel have done a good job and earned their reputation, but it'd be foolish to think that some of their movies aren't risks. Guardians was a risk. It paid off (in a big way). Ant-Man was a risk. It paid off (pretty well).
Not everything with Marvel is a sure thing though.
I actually REALLY liked the last two FF movies. Despite being the biggest name in it, I felt Jessica Alba was the weak link (only in for eye-candy), but Reed/Ioan felt like the oblivious genius, Johnny/Chris/Captain America felt like the cocky hotshot who always got under Ben's gravelly skin, Chiklis/Thing felt like a real tortured soul who couldn't come to grips with what he became until the beautiful blind Alicia Masters saw him for who he was inside, and Julian/Doom felt like an arrogant guy who had everything and lost it due to Reed. They went into space. They came back with powers. Took them over half the movie to come to grips with them, some taking longer/shorter than the others. And Doom going completely power-hungry mad.
Hmmm...yeah, now that I go back through...I stand by saying it was a good set. Middle of the bunch. In Fox's movies it fell under X1&2, FC and DoFP, and above all the rest.
I find myself agreeing with this essay despite not having seen the latest movie. I never much cared for the Fantastic 4 in the comics, and the movies over the last 10-15 years just left me cold. I just could never identify with the heroes or feel the need to care about them. Having never read the origins story of the Fantastic 4 I didn't realize the number and level of poor decisions Reed Richards makes. Told from another perspective I do think the Fantastic 4 could be great villains.
So, what do you fine folks think? Are the Fantastic 4 a bunch of dicks? Or are they just misunderstood?
Pasted for the work blocked.
Spoiler:
Mere minutes into the disastrous new Fantastic Four movie, a young Reed Richards—who will later become an elastic-limbed superhero—borrows a child’s model airplane. Eager to demonstrate his brilliance, he inserts it into a machine that temporarily teleports it into another dimension. When the toy returns, it has been damaged beyond repair, one wing partially broken off and the chassis pitted with mysterious scars. Oblivious, he hands it back to its owner, who barely hesitates before blurting out what everyone must be thinking. “You’re a dick,” the child tells Reed. And he is not wrong.
Perhaps that child can take some comfort in the weekend box office: Fantastic Four brought in a mere $26.2 million from its domestic screenings, ceding first place to the fifth film in a 19-year-old franchise. This dismal showing comes as little surprise, given the film’s poor reviews and its similarly poor reception from the few viewers who made it to the theater.
Some suggest the film floundered thanks to those reviews, to its lack of real movie stars, or just to audience fatigue after years of superhero films. But that throwaway line in this latest fantastic flop speaks to a weakness running deep through the franchise’s history, one that will trouble any future adaptation as it’s troubled them all up till now: The Fantastic Four themselves really are elitist, reckless, privileged dicks.
It’s not just Reed Richards, though it starts with him. Our supposed hero is the kind of person who’s willing to experiment on his fellow humans in the pursuit of scientific knowledge. In his debut in 1961’s Fantastic Four #1, Richards and three friends—none of them scientists—steal a military rocket and launch themselves into the heavens, despite his failure to research “the effects of cosmic rays.” As Ben Grimm, who will pilot the craft, puts it, those rays “might kill us all out in space.” Undeterred, Richards plots a course directly into the “cosmic storm area,” subjecting his fellow travelers to an astral bombardment that sends the ship plummeting back to Earth.
While they survive, the rays profoundly transform them, turning them all into victims of Richards’ profound lack of scientific ethics—and somehow making them into superheroes entirely by accident. Faced with the abject failure of his work, he is not humble. “I’ll call myself … Mr. Fantastic,” he exclaims to the friends he has just permanently mutilated. Presumably still addled by translunar radiation, they do not object to his unearned, self-congratulatory hubris. In another sort of story, he would be the villain. Here, for some reason, he is a hero.
The new film has Reed launching his friends not into the stratosphere, but another dimension. Though it changes this detail, director Josh Trank’s take preserves a critical element of the original: Reed is still a dick. Though he is egged on by his lab mate, Victor Von Doom, it’s ultimately Reed’s own inexplicable charisma (he’s played by Miles Teller, who is also a bit of a dick, apparently) that impels his friends into the dimensional breach. As in every prior incarnation, they suffer for his arrogance.
(Continued from Page 1)
In the comics, other members of the team are little better than Richards. After becoming the Thing, Ben Grimm openly complains that Reed’s girlfriend, Sue Storm, “love[s] the wrong man,” and starts a physical fight to prove the point. In another scene in the first issue, Johnny Storm, the Human Torch, carelessly melts a pair of Air Force jets, just one example of the havoc the Four wreak in the name of heroism.
In their earliest days, the Fantastic Four’s douchebaggery was part of what made them stand out. Querulous and clumsy, they were somehow human, in spite of their great gifts. And yet, in retrospect, they were also models of uncommon superheroic privilege. Possessed of seemingly unlimited resources, they owned an entire Manhattan skyscraper, the top floors of which were—according to a diagram in the third issue—tricked out with a hangar for their “orbit plane,” a private projection room, and a launch pad for long-range passenger missiles.
Unlike many other superhero teams, the Fantastic Four were also a surprisingly exclusive clique. In one of his first stories, the well-meaning but perennially broke Spider-Man attempts to join the group, explaining that he thinks he deserves their “top salary.” Despite their apparent wealth, they laugh him off, explaining that they are “a non-profit organization” that pays “no salaries or bonuses.” (A dejected Spider-Man never asks how they manage to live in a luxury high-rise if they “just keep enough money to pay [their] expenses.”) What’s more, unlike virtually every superhero, they also live openly under their own names, seemingly unconcerned that anyone would try to harm them or those they love. Seen in this light, the Fantastic Four aren’t just dicks, they’re entitled dicks.
Other artists and storytellers have known this for years. In Warren Ellis and John Cassady’s terrific series Planetary, for example, members of a thinly masked version of the Fantastic Four are the villains. Known simply as the Four, they greedily hoard the world’s secrets in selfish pursuit of their own transcendence, sacrificing countless lives in the process. The animated Venture Bros. offers a more self-consciously comic parody of the characters, reimagining them as a dysfunctional band of squabbling, if mostly harmless, losers. Both versions capture what the new film can only tacitly acknowledge: The Fantastic Four have always basically been the worst.
In this, our heroes mirror their creators. According to Sean Howe’s history of Marvel, Stan Lee claimed that he was responsible for “the new characters and the somewhat offbeat storyline” of the Fantastic Four’s first appearance, even though the Four, like virtually every Marvel product, emerged from a collaboration. (Unsurprisingly, Lee sometimes identified himself with Mr. Fantastic, the group’s de facto leader and its most intelligent member.) Decades later, fans would argue that Lee denied due credit to the artists he worked with, especially the prodigiously talented Jack Kirby. Of course, Kirby—who sometimes depicted himself as the cantankerous Thing—arguably wasn’t that much nicer. Howe reports that Kirby claimed more or less total credit for the Fantastic Four. Before he intervened, he said, “Marvel was on its ass, literally… and Stan Lee was sitting there crying.”
The earliest comics found a generative frisson in the struggles between the members of its creative team. By contrast, the film’s more technical failings were likely a product of conflict in and around its production process. Director Trank blames Fox, claiming that he had “a fantastic version” that the studio rejected. Some reports suggest Trank was a dick. Others suggest that Fox only filmed the movie because it would have lost the rights to the characters if it failed to do so. If they’re truly more interested in maintaining control of a valuable property than in making something valuable from it, Fox’s executives are no better than Reed Richards and his pals. They’re not alone in this: The Fantastic Four seems to bring out the worst in film executives. In the early ’90s, a German producer hired Roger Corman to make a movie about the characters for a mere $1 million, once again to maintain rights. He never finished the film, leaving the young actors who’d thrown themselves into the project with next to nothing.
In the end, “dick” may not be an idly chosen insult in this film. In fact, Fantastic Four is almost literally a film about dicks, given how few women have speaking parts. I counted two, and one of them is invisible: Sue Storm, who has traditionally been the least dickish of the Four, though she’s also sometimes been the silliest. Brought to life by Kate Mara, she’s not unpleasant—especially relative to the men around her—but she mostly confines herself to the background, even when she’s visible. It’s tempting to tie this to the long history of comic book sexism, but maybe there’s a simpler reason. Maybe she knows it’s best not to be seen in such company.
Jacob Brogan is a Future Tense research associate. He is writing a book about the cultural history of lovesickness. Follow him on Twitter.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You can view almost any of the early super-heroes (or maybe all super-heroes) through the same cynical, post-modern lens and come to similar conclusions.
I'm not sure it is necessarily 'fair' or 'smart' to look back 50 years and say "Wow, what a bunch of evil douches!".
That article is yet ANOTHER thing to blame on this new, horrible Fantastic Four movie!
Reposting what I said in the other thread, since it's relevant:
Reed Richards is also a total dick in alternate dimensions: in Marvel Zombies, he PURPOSEFULLY turns all the FF into the zombies, without asking them, instead of trying to save everyone. Doom ends up saving people. In Ultimate FF, Reed kills his own family and I believe he kills one of the other FF. Don't remember who.