Well how did they do!?!??! I haven't had a chance to pick up the book yet as I worked all day.... do I dare buy it haha!

Whats everyone thoughts? Any big nerfs????

Nerfs to the stuff that needed it, buffs to the stuff that needed it with removal of a few things (less Cryptek variants for example) which I won't be surprised if it returns later if they get some kind of plastic kit.

Basically the book got what it needed, came out pretty balanced and even though it's tougher I don't think it's unstoppable.

Did minshackles really get nerfed ohhh I hope soo

 Mojo1jojo wrote:
Did minshackles really get nerfed ohhh I hope soo

I hope not lol

Yep, they got nerfed.
They now only activate in challenges, and are a 3D6 Fear Test.
Can't have them Necrons affecting Marine combat prowess

Objectivly, they are a lot stronger.

The change to RP alone is a major buff, compounded on Multi-wound models that have the rule.

We saw some (Warranted) Points increases on the Abarge, and Night scythe.

The nerfing of MSS, no more Weave, and the Phase Shifter is now a 4++...

That being said, everything else is a pretty huge buff. Even Wraiths got buffed, now being T5 for only 5 points more.

Nearly everything is Viable in the codex now, there really aren't a lot of bad options (Besides the new MSS and a few Special Characters)

A lot of Units got Point Decreases, buffs or a combination of the two.

Probably the most Solid codex released in a very long time.

 Sasori wrote:
Objectivly, they are a lot stronger.

The change to RP alone is a major buff, compounded on Multi-wound models that have the rule.

We saw some (Warranted) Points increases on the Abarge, and Night scythe.

The nerfing of MSS, no more Weave, and the Phase Shifter is now a 4++...

That being said, everything else is a pretty huge buff. Even Wraiths got buffed, now being T5 for only 5 points more.

Nearly everything is Viable in the codex now, there really aren't a lot of bad options (Besides the new MSS and a few Special Characters)

A lot of Units got Point Decreases, buffs or a combination of the two.

Probably the most Solid codex released in a very long time.

Sounds pretty darn good to me

The Deceiver giveth, and The Deceiver taketh.

Pretty much all the expected nerfs are there. Tesla got hit, as expected (and the Anni Barge also went up in points). Mindshackle Scarabs swung so far the other way to basically be a joke now. Overlords can only get a 4++ now, and the only 2+ armor save they can get now is from a relic. Scarab swarms lost their ability to munch on armor. The Gauntlet of Fire isn't even a close combat weapon anymore. The Res Orb is one use only. The different Crypteks are gone. The T-C'tan is a shadow of what it was, and C'tan powers are random for the sake of being random (maybe Necrons will eventually get something new to match up to the titans and such the other armies have).

Flayed Ones actually got useful. Deathmarks can now shoot stuff when they do their deepstrike during the opponent's turn. Wraiths actually got better. Tomb Blades and their options got cheaper, so may actually be worth taking. Destroyers got an extra wound. Triarch stalkers buff the shooting of everyone around them. Reanimation Protocols is rolled for as soon as you take a wound (so no more wiping the squad to stop them from getting back up). Crypteks buff Reanimation rolls.

For the most part, the Codex got a little bit better. There are a few head scratchers, though, like why did they get rid of Sempiternal Weave? How come Imhotek doesn't even have a close combat weapon now?

^ well now you make it sound not so great lol....

I personally think it's the most powerful book out of all the 7e books now. Back when unbound and battle forged became a thing, and army-specific detachments with their own battle forged bonuses were coming out, the decurion's bonus is the kind of bonus I was hoping every army would get. Something that would be a tragic loss if you went unbound.
I mean, most of them have been alright, but none of them compare to that monster of a detachment bonus with all the little sub-bonuses.

Lots of cheaper upgrades. Lots of price reductions in general.

Considering that RP works like FnP now, multiple wound models become significantly tougher, so the phase shifter nerf isn't all that bad. It's only 25pts now rather than 45pts.

A lot of cheese was removed but a lot of things were buffed. Entropic strike was nerfed and the Anh Barge and Night Scythe both went up 30pts. Tesla doesn't give bonus hits when snapfiring.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
The Deceiver giveth, and The Deceiver taketh.

Pretty much all the expected nerfs are there. Tesla got hit, as expected (and the Anni Barge also went up in points). Mindshackle Scarabs swung so far the other way to basically be a joke now. Overlords can only get a 4++ now, and the only 2+ armor save they can get now is from a relic. Scarab swarms lost their ability to munch on armor. The Gauntlet of Fire isn't even a close combat weapon anymore. The Res Orb is one use only. The different Crypteks are gone. The T-C'tan is a shadow of what it was, and C'tan powers are random for the sake of being random (maybe Necrons will eventually get something new to match up to the titans and such the other armies have).

Flayed Ones actually got useful. Deathmarks can now shoot stuff when they do their deepstrike during the opponent's turn. Wraiths actually got better. Tomb Blades and their options got cheaper, so may actually be worth taking. Destroyers got an extra wound. Triarch stalkers buff the shooting of everyone around them. Reanimation Protocols is rolled for as soon as you take a wound (so no more wiping the squad to stop them from getting back up). Crypteks buff Reanimation rolls.

For the most part, the Codex got a little bit better. There are a few head scratchers, though, like why did they get rid of Sempiternal Weave? How come Imhotek doesn't even have a close combat weapon now?

The Codex is a lot more than a little bit better, it is significantly better. The Decurion detachment is outright amazing for the buffs it give, and nearly every formation that you can take is good in it.

The Buff to RP alone is massive and affects nearly the entire Army.

You get a lot more for your points in the entire Army, since nearly everything got significantly cheaper.


I don't see how you an objectively say it got a "little bit" better.

I am seriously wondering if I am the New Power with this codex.

Can anyone tell me how Anrakyr the traveller changed?

I've read that his 'Mind in the machine' rule has been changed to 12" one use only.

Cheaper, better BS and WS like everyone, set Warlord Trait.
MitM is 12" indeed and takes over a random weapon, which is really crap.

Yeah, MitM got nerfed bad.

I am still going to use him, he can attack with a S8 Warscythe and that is quite awesome.

IMO I quite like the less cluttered wargear list. Kinda sad that the Crypteks don't have as many toys, but the Formations sort of balance it out with some rather cool abilities.
For all those of you crying about the lack of 2+ saves, fear not. The Nightmare Shroud(35pts) now gives you a 2+ save and causes fear. In addition to which, in your shooting phase you can pick an enemy unit within 18" and force them to take a morale check (obvy anyone with Fearless or ATSKNF passes this automatically)

I was really excited when I thought it was a balanced, solid dex. Now I've seen lots of people say it's too powerful, and it's kinda turned me off a bit.

A lot of stuff is really powerful and buffed.
But the Wraiths, Night Scythe and AB-spam is no longer possible, which destroyed the old tournament build.

We'll have to wait and see how it plays out.

 ImAGeek wrote:
I was really excited when I thought it was a balanced, solid dex. Now I've seen lots of people say it's too powerful, and it's kinda turned me off a bit.

Wait a couple of weeks. People will find counters.
The only problem I see are wraiths in the Decurion detachment, who could be ridiculously tough, with T5 2W 3++ / 4(?) + RP

But they also cost a lot of points and you need Spyders and Scarabs.
Killing the Spyder also removes that RP.

How much are they now? Back to 41 points?

We can't give exact point costs, but you are extremely close.

Hm, most likely 45-43 then. Which is fair, considering the T boost and decurion buffs.

Detachment buffs are never a reason to increase the price of a unit.
43 would also be weird, because for some reason they always tend to go for multiples of 5.
Also, you were wrong. When I said it was extremely close you were off by 1 point.

Aww.
Hm, I see. Went in a completely wrong direction then.

I think the multiple of fives thing is so that it's easier to calculate without the need of a calculator.
Makes list building faster.

Though that does appear to be a post-3rd ed practice; back then there was a wider range of points values.

I don't think I have seen it mentioned anywhere, but did Necron fluff change this go around? I know last codex saw a pretty drastic change for them.

Anybody else think Scarab Swarms are useless now? Went up by 5 points AND their entropic strike got nerfed hard....why take them?

I do not see it as a nerf.
They went from lowering AV to auto-glancing on a 6.

 Sasori wrote:
Objectivly, they are a lot stronger.

The change to RP alone is a major buff, compounded on Multi-wound models that have the rule.

We saw some (Warranted) Points increases on the Abarge, and Night scythe.

The nerfing of MSS, no more Weave, and the Phase Shifter is now a 4++...

That being said, everything else is a pretty huge buff. Even Wraiths got buffed, now being T5 for only 5 points more.

Nearly everything is Viable in the codex now, there really aren't a lot of bad options (Besides the new MSS and a few Special Characters)

A lot of Units got Point Decreases, buffs or a combination of the two.

Probably the most Solid codex released in a very long time.

Seconded.

Moreover, the Decursion detachment is really solid giving an RP bonus.

Wraithwing is viable as is Destroyerwing and even Tombbladewing.

Flayed ones... so good now.

Kangodo wrote:
I do not see it as a nerf.
They went from lowering AV to auto-glancing on a 6.

It is objectively a nerf, since the lowered AV was counted before armor pen rolls.

The Void Blades have rending... It is going to be VERY rare when it wouldn't already glance, thanks to rolling a rend.

DaPino wrote:
Can anyone tell me how Anrakyr the traveller changed?

I've read that his 'Mind in the machine' rule has been changed to 12" one use only.

Not one use only, but 12", only works on a 4+, doesn't ignore crew stunned/shaken and picks a random weapon. Crap, basically.

Wasnt Anrakyr on a CCB pretty OP before? I mean the generic CCB already is a tough sob, then put Anrakyr on top who takes control of enemy vehicles and you just cant go wrong. So yeah, he did deserve the nerf - he still works well on VIndicators and such though.

Oh and Portal of Exile got nerfed too.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Wasnt Anrakyr on a CCB pretty OP before? I mean the generic CCB already is a tough sob, then put Anrakyr on top who takes control of enemy vehicles and you just cant go wrong. So yeah, he did deserve the nerf - he still works well on VIndicators and such though.

Oh and Portal of Exile got nerfed too.

No, because you couldn't use his ability from the CCB, and then later couldn't use him on a CCB at all.

 Sasori wrote:

Kangodo wrote:
I do not see it as a nerf.
They went from lowering AV to auto-glancing on a 6.

It is objectively a nerf, since the lowered AV was counted before armor pen rolls.

The Void Blades have rending... It is going to be VERY rare when it wouldn't already glance, thanks to rolling a rend.

Scarabs couldn't do anything to Super Heavies before, now they can. They can also hurt Monstrous Creatures meaning they no longer have a bad match up with Nids if they're in your list.

As for Void Blades I think the idea is that you can still glance even if your Rend fails to roll high enough to glance or pen meaning there are less bad match ups for them as well.

Which nids are T7?

None are in the Dex, not sure about the more recent releases.

They nerfed everything that was above average good in the last codex, and then buffed pretty much everything else.

Necrons are now even harder to kill than they were before, but lost all the crazy good attacks they had.

The changes will drive sales for previously underperforming units. We will see more Tomb Blades, Destroyers, and Lychguard fielded than we ever have previously.

So necron armies will now spam destroyer lords and wraiths , or will the barge overlords still be used ?

The decurion givith and taketh. Just got the book, very restrictive but offers great benefits. I think though I will be sticking with the CAD or the mephrit dynasty force org.

Makumba wrote:
So necron armies will now spam destroyer lords and wraiths , or will the barge overlords still be used ?

Actually, you may see Flayed One spam more often than Wraith spam. Against anything T7 or less, Flayed Ones bring the pain.

 buddha wrote:
The decurion givith and taketh. Just got the book, very restrictive but offers great benefits. I think though I will be sticking with the CAD or the mephrit dynasty force org.

Agreed, the Decurion brings a lot of cool things, but there are a lot of taxes built into it.

Flayed Ones rise...

a scarab swarm of 6 bases stil rapes a land raider in a single turn. They got nerfed, but not hard.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

Makumba wrote:
So necron armies will now spam destroyer lords and wraiths , or will the barge overlords still be used ?

Actually, you may see Flayed One spam more often than Wraith spam. Against anything T7 or less, Flayed Ones bring the pain.

 buddha wrote:
The decurion givith and taketh. Just got the book, very restrictive but offers great benefits. I think though I will be sticking with the CAD or the mephrit dynasty force org.

Agreed, the Decurion brings a lot of cool things, but there are a lot of taxes built into it.

The Wraith formation has a lot of subtle balances built in too:
1. There is only one Spyder
2. You can't use all the powers at once meaning either the Wraiths have to move slower, or the Spyder needs to Fleet to keep up instead
3. Scarab tax with more expensive bases

So yeah, despite how strong it can be, it's not a bad formation.

 Byte wrote:
Flayed Ones rise...

Yes. After 2 editions, Flayed Ones are finally usable.
I just need to get more of the 3rd ed metal ones.

Did anyone check the fluff in both the old and new Necron books? Did they copy-paste paragraph after paragraph or is it all a new re-write?

I remember the Eldar codex e.g. being a lot of copy pasta

DaPino wrote:
a scarab swarm of 6 bases stil rapes a land raider in a single turn. They got nerfed, but not hard.

That is not correct.

Current rules 6 bases, 5 attacks each on the charge, for a total of 30 atacks, 20 hit (67% hit), 3 Glance (16%)
Old rules 6 bases, 5 attacks each on the charge, for a total of 30 atacks, 20 hit (67% hit), 10 Glance (50%)

Charging Scarab has 5 attacks, 3.35 (67%) will hit, .536 (16%) will glance
Land Raider has 4 hull points (4 divided by .536 = 7.46), so you need 8 scarab bases to take out a Landraider, on the charge, 50% of the time.

Old Scarabs has 5 attacks, 3.35 (67%) will hit, 1.675 (50%) will glance.
3 Old School Scarabs could take down a landraider 50% of the time, on the charge.

* Fixed Mathammer Error

So what your math is saying Adam is that they're more balanced points wise than they used to be?

 ClockworkZion wrote:
So what your math is saying Adam is that they're more balanced points wise than they used to be?

Yes. They are defintiely more balanced now for their points.

While this is an appropriate change, it is still a considerable nerf in their effectiveness against armor.

6 bases of scarabs would have to not miss at all, or be very lucky and roll twice as many 6's than average to damage to take out a land raider in a single round.
If we are willing to embrace statistical improbabilities like that, a single scarab base is capable of destroying a landraider, if all it's attacks hit and glance.

One little disappointment it's not huge is that necron warriors have to be in a minimum squad of 10.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Did anyone check the fluff in both the old and new Necron books? Did they copy-paste paragraph after paragraph or is it all a new re-write?

I remember the Eldar codex e.g. being a lot of copy pasta

There is alot of new artwrok which is nice - a few bits and pieces which are new to me at least:

eg: Architects of theri own outcast status, the Nekthyst Dynasty are widely regarded as traitors by the other dynasties for acts of betrayal during the Wars of Succession. They have, however, found unlikely allies in he younger races, much to the disdain of their kin.

Previously it was a subject of "discussion" if Necrons could be corrupted by Chaos - now its certain they are not immune:
919.M41 The Daemons Tomb - The Daemon Prince Shukketh Voidmaw infects the tomb world of Vorketh with the taint of Chaos. Vorketh's regent awakens to find his crypts transformed and his legions aleady locked in battle.

Shield fo Baal campaign mentioned

Quite a few mentions of the issues of their long sleep - inlcuding the madness that many (most) lords have succumbed to in greater or lesser degrees.

Nice map of the Necron empire which spreads ut even beyond "known space"

No mention I could see of Imotekh's "issues" with Orks or the Black Templars

 adamsouza wrote:

DaPino wrote:
a scarab swarm of 6 bases stil rapes a land raider in a single turn. They got nerfed, but not hard.

That is not correct.

Current rules 6 bases, 5 attacks each on the charge, for a total of 30 atacks, 15 hit (50% miss), 2 Glance (16%)
Old rules 6 bases, 5 attacks each on the charge, for a total of 30 atacks, 15 hit (50% miss), 7 Glance (50%)

You need 10 bases of the new scarabs (200 pts), to take out a Land Raider (250pts), on the charge.
10 bases, 5 attacks each on the charge, for a total of 50 attacks, 25 hit (50% miss), 4 Glance (16%)

Wouldn't 67% of their attacks hit instead of only 50%?

Smeg, your right.

I'll edit the original post.

 Tyran wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:

DaPino wrote:
a scarab swarm of 6 bases stil rapes a land raider in a single turn. They got nerfed, but not hard.

That is not correct.

Current rules 6 bases, 5 attacks each on the charge, for a total of 30 atacks, 15 hit (50% miss), 2 Glance (16%)
Old rules 6 bases, 5 attacks each on the charge, for a total of 30 atacks, 15 hit (50% miss), 7 Glance (50%)

You need 10 bases of the new scarabs (200 pts), to take out a Land Raider (250pts), on the charge.
10 bases, 5 attacks each on the charge, for a total of 50 attacks, 25 hit (50% miss), 4 Glance (16%)

Wouldn't 67% of their attacks hit instead of only 50%?

Either way, you still need a lot more scarabs to do the job now than you needed before. And they still die hard to high strength weapons.

Definitely nerfed the Scarabs against armor, but in return we got a 33% price hike and a 16% chance to wound MCs.

Scarabs will do worse against high toughness monstrous creatures than they do against AV because of the MC's armro saves will negate some of wounds.

Personally, I feel the nerf to entropic touch was enough, and the points bump unwarrented.

 adamsouza wrote:
They nerfed everything that was above average good in the last codex, and then buffed pretty much everything else.

Necrons are now even harder to kill than they were before, but lost all the crazy good attacks they had.

The changes will drive sales for previously underperforming units. We will see more Tomb Blades, Destroyers, and Lychguard fielded than we ever have previously.

I think the same holds for a C'Tan.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

 adamsouza wrote:

DaPino wrote:
a scarab swarm of 6 bases stil rapes a land raider in a single turn. They got nerfed, but not hard.

That is not correct.

Current rules 6 bases, 5 attacks each on the charge, for a total of 30 atacks, 15 hit (50% miss), 2 Glance (16%)
Old rules 6 bases, 5 attacks each on the charge, for a total of 30 atacks, 15 hit (50% miss), 7 Glance (50%)

You need 10 bases of the new scarabs (200 pts), to take out a Land Raider (250pts), on the charge.
10 bases, 5 attacks each on the charge, for a total of 50 attacks, 25 hit (50% miss), 4 Glance (16%)

Wouldn't 67% of their attacks hit instead of only 50%?

Either way, you still need a lot more scarabs to do the job now than you needed before. And they still die hard to high strength weapons.

Although now they are useful against superheavies.

Scarabs are the one sore point I have with codex. I fully expected entropic strike to go away and the "on roll of 6" trigger is also standard procedure.
If that was the only change, I would be "ok" with it. However, a 33% increase in cost makes zero sense. They are incredibly easy to kill and will, unless taken in larger groups then before, not be able to kill anything of note. They were always a sacrificial unit that might, if you got really lucky, tie up a more expensive unit for a turn.
They didn't gain any new bonus against T1-6, being able to strip a wound or hull point off the tougher guys will only rarely come up, and they made them less effective against ap - by giving the a 6+ armor.
They really are objectively worse and are a terrible deal for their points. I consider them such a staple of the Necron army (both fluff and tactics wise) that it's a real shame their only use will be to unlock a formation now.

Gotta be a 100% honest here - When I hear that a codex is almost univeraslly good from most people, I fear that the codex in question is too powerful, whereas, when the community is either lukewarm or simply disliking a new book, I believe it must be a great book, because many people are angry that their usual, powerful cheese-lists are invalidated. Call me a cynic and I wouldn't stop you.

I guess we'll see. Games weren't won on Sempiternal Weave alone.

Unless...unless you attach an IC to the scarabs and have him soak up wounds and pass low AP ones on to the scarabs.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Byte wrote:
Flayed Ones rise...

Yes. After 2 editions, Flayed Ones are finally usable.
I just need to get more of the 3rd ed metal ones.

Fortunately I have 30 metal Ones. Need 10 more I guess.

I think 30 are more than enough.
It would be hard to come up with a list where I need 40.

You can fill those 30 with Lychguard, C'tans, Wraiths and Praetorians if you want a melee list.

Are meleecrons good?

I'm beginning to like the Triarch Praetorians - 2 attacks base now, 3 on charge, all S5 AP2 I2 (so strike before powerfists), so a small 5 man unit will do upto 15 attacks on the charge, 7.5 hits, 5 AP2 wounds. They can also get a S5 AP2 volley off at 6" or less (which is doable, given that they are jump troops), so add another 3.33 hits and 2.22 AP2 wounds to the list, making it 7.22 AP2 wounds coming from a single 5 man unit. Pretty sweet, I'd say.

Their range is actually 12", which makes it a lot better!
That means you can use the JP for a more reliable Charge and HoW-attacks of S5.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

Kangodo wrote:
I do not see it as a nerf.
They went from lowering AV to auto-glancing on a 6.

It is objectively a nerf, since the lowered AV was counted before armor pen rolls.

The Void Blades have rending... It is going to be VERY rare when it wouldn't already glance, thanks to rolling a rend.

Scarabs couldn't do anything to Super Heavies before, now they can. They can also hurt Monstrous Creatures meaning they no longer have a bad match up with Nids if they're in your list.

As for Void Blades I think the idea is that you can still glance even if your Rend fails to roll high enough to glance or pen meaning there are less bad match ups for them as well.

Entropic Strike still went off on a six against super heavies, so it was still good against them. So it is slightly better against super heavies now. Wooo.

Scarabs are still awful against Monstrous creatures, considering the MC will 99% of the time go first, and ID several bases... then the scarabs may score a wound or two, which the MC will likely save. So, I don't see how they are no longer a "Bad Match up" they are still just as terrible, they just now have a small chance to score a wound which they could if they had rolled a six on T6 anyway... in what way is that better than them having the ability to strip an armor save from the MC?

Voidblades on Pretorains never failed to wreck any sort of vehicle they went up against before, so it is a lot worse for them as well. The only time the auto-glance will ever come into play is on AV 13-14.. There is a pretty short list of how many vehicles are AV13-14 in the rear.

Once again, Entropic strike is objectively a huge nerf...

No, SHV's got some changes and their AV couldn't be reduced in any way.
So Scarabs went from useless against SHV's to 'okayish'.

Kangodo wrote:
No, SHV's got some changes and their AV couldn't be reduced in any way.
So Scarabs went from useless against SHV's to 'okayish'.

Ok, that's fair then. The last update I remember was that it required a roll to six to work.

I'll concede that then, but I'd take the old entropic strike back easily, even if it didn't do anything to SHVs.

You won't hear me complaining about the old Entropic Strike.
It's almost as if they don't even know their own armies and just browse random games to determine what needs to be nerfed or buffed.
I cannot believe they thought Wraiths need a buff while Scarabs needed to be nerfed even lower to the ground.

arent nurglings pretty much the only useful swarm in the meta now? scarabs, rippers and sky slashers are all terribad

 The Wise Dane wrote:
Gotta be a 100% honest here - When I hear that a codex is almost univeraslly good from most people, I fear that the codex in question is too powerful, whereas, when the community is either lukewarm or simply disliking a new book, I believe it must be a great book, because many people are angry that their usual, powerful cheese-lists are invalidated. Call me a cynic and I wouldn't stop you.

I guess we'll see. Games weren't won on Sempiternal Weave alone.

This is generally true.....

The fact that you're getting a ton of smiles from Necron players should in fact worry everyone.

I'm thinking this book just broke the 7th edition "balance" trend and is the first in 7th with some codex creep ( Yes even with the nerfs).

guess we will see what the next codex brings.

Why should that worry people?
Unlike popular believe, not every Necron-player used Wraiths, Night Scythes and Barges.
Not just because they don't have the models, but often because they don't like it.

I am personally smiling because 8 out of 14.000 points worth of Necrons stopped being bad.

 Sir Arun wrote:
arent nurglings pretty much the only useful swarm in the meta now? scarabs, rippers and sky slashers are all terribad

Actually no, rippers are the most useful of the swarms, although only as objective grabbers.

 BlackArmour wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:
Gotta be a 100% honest here - When I hear that a codex is almost univeraslly good from most people, I fear that the codex in question is too powerful, whereas, when the community is either lukewarm or simply disliking a new book, I believe it must be a great book, because many people are angry that their usual, powerful cheese-lists are invalidated. Call me a cynic and I wouldn't stop you.

I guess we'll see. Games weren't won on Sempiternal Weave alone.

This is generally true.....

The fact that you're getting a ton of smiles from Necron players should in fact worry everyone.

I'm thinking this book just broke the 7th edition "balance" trend and is the first in 7th with some codex creep ( Yes even with the nerfs).

guess we will see what the next codex brings.

Remove the decurian formations and they are much more in line with the other 7th edition books, probably still top tier but not horrible out of sync. With the decurian detachment and formations, they are likely broken. Time will tell, I get to play my first game against new necrons tomorrow.

Not broken, "Invisibility" and resultant invisible Imperial Knights and Centstars are broken.

Nothing Necron will be Invisible.

I'm really confused as to why people think Flayed Ones are good all of a sudden. Yes, they have more, better attacks, but they are still WS4, Init 2, 4+ As Elite duders. Wraiths and Praetorians are just so much better for the points, I just don't see why someone would bother with FOs, aside from Rule of Cool reasons.

Deschenus Maximus wrote:
I'm really confused as to why people think Flayed Ones are good all of a sudden. Yes, they have more, better attacks, but they are still WS4, Init 2, 4+ As Elite duders. Wraiths and Praetorians are just so much better for the points, I just don't see why someone would bother with FOs, aside from Rule of Cool reasons.

For a melee troop choice they're pretty good. Also they have RP, so don't discount that.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
For a melee troop choice they're pretty good. Also they have RP, so don't discount that.

They're Elite, not Troops.

The 300 point Obelisk is a really interesting anti-air solution. It causes flyers and FMC's etc... to take a Dangerous terrain test even though their rules would normally not.

Well obviously, being immobilized is real bad for flyers/FMC's.

Also, the guns are Tesla. 20 Tesla shots. wow.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deschenus Maximus wrote:
I'm really confused as to why people think Flayed Ones are good all of a sudden. Yes, they have more, better attacks, but they are still WS4, Init 2, 4+ As Elite duders. Wraiths and Praetorians are just so much better for the points, I just don't see why someone would bother with FOs, aside from Rule of Cool reasons.

Come now. that volume of attacks WILL in fact wreck almost anyones day. AP 5 is also very good.

20 tesla shots seems to be a lot.
But you have to factor in that the four tesla spheres are hull mounted.

Doesn't matter, they are on ball joints.

Deschenus Maximus wrote:
I'm really confused as to why people think Flayed Ones are good all of a sudden. Yes, they have more, better attacks, but they are still WS4, Init 2, 4+ As Elite duders. Wraiths and Praetorians are just so much better for the points, I just don't see why someone would bother with FOs, aside from Rule of Cool reasons.

4 Attacks base, with shred and AP 5 with a 4+/ 5-4+ RP, with infiltrate and deepstrike for 13 ppm is pretty good....

Mathwise, they've shown to beat out anything, as long as they can hurt it. Everything from Bloodthristers to TH/SS Termies.

RE: The Obelisk, ball-mounted the tesla spheres may be, each gun still needs LoS to fire, so at best you'll only be able to get 3 of the spheres on a single unit.

Still though, mathematically an Obelisk firing just three of its spheres will generate more hits than the combined firepower of three Anni Barges, despite costing 60 points less. That's pretty decent.

 Jancoran wrote:
Doesn't matter, they are on ball joints.

Are you thinking of the monolith? The obelisk model-wise isn't a ball in socket joint none of the tesla spheres physically move.

Deschenus Maximus wrote:
I'm really confused as to why people think Flayed Ones are good all of a sudden. Yes, they have more, better attacks, but they are still WS4, Init 2, 4+ As Elite duders. Wraiths and Praetorians are just so much better for the points, I just don't see why someone would bother with FOs, aside from Rule of Cool reasons.

Because they went from 4 attacks on the charge to 5 attacks.
And they gained Rending.
And RP changed to become better in CC.
Let's not forget the AP5.

People did the math.
If you charge with an equal amount in points of, let's say, Death Company (Yes, one of the nastiest assault units in the game).
The Death Company would lose.

 Sasori wrote:

Deschenus Maximus wrote:
I'm really confused as to why people think Flayed Ones are good all of a sudden. Yes, they have more, better attacks, but they are still WS4, Init 2, 4+ As Elite duders. Wraiths and Praetorians are just so much better for the points, I just don't see why someone would bother with FOs, aside from Rule of Cool reasons.

4 Attacks base, with shred and AP 5 with a 4+/ 5-4+ RP, with infiltrate and deepstrike for 13 ppm is pretty good....

Mathwise, they've shown to beat out anything, as long as they can hurt it. Everything from Bloodthristers to TH/SS Termies.

Indeed, they became an amazing unit to field.
I think you need a unit of 10 to 15 to be effective. The larger the better.

 Byte wrote:
Not broken, "Invisibility" and resultant invisible Imperial Knights and Centstars are broken.

Nothing Necron will be Invisible.

Invisibility isn't the one sole broken thing in the game. Things can be broken without it.

Maybe I'm just being stupid, but in my codex I'm only seeing Flayed Ones with 3 attacks. Where is everyone getting the 4 attacks from?

Tomin0us wrote:
Maybe I'm just being stupid, but in my codex I'm only seeing Flayed Ones with 3 attacks. Where is everyone getting the 4 attacks from?

They have 2 claws.

They have 2 claws.

They have three attacks on their profile, and an extra attack because they have 2 claws.

You get an additional attack if you have two close combat weapons.
And you get an attack when you charge.

In the old Codex a Flayed One would deal 1 wound against T4.
Now that same Flayed One will deal 1.875 wound against the same T4 at AP5.
They deal nearly two times the amount of damage but they stayed the same price.

I find it funny that GW seemingly went out of their way to avoid mentioning Forgeworld's Maynarkh dyansty at all. They've incorporated references to Forgeworld's stuff in all the previous books; Vraks, Mymeara, Death Korps/Elysians, pretty much all their stuff at least gets a timeline mention.

For the 'Crons, not a word. In fact, the Mephrit dynasty uses a very similar colour scheme and is of a similar fluff niche "favoured executioners of the Silent King, distrusted by other dynasties."

Can't have little Timmy realize there's stuff he can't buy from the GW website or local GW.

Rulewise, the book worries me somewhat. It's got great internal balance, excellent formation bonuses and a good mix of melee, ranged and durable units where most 7th edition books have been very 1-dimensional and have awful internal balance, but alright external balance. The Necron codex looks like it can do just about anything, and most of their units, especially with the formation buffs are not just generalists, but better than any other "generalist" out there, with good specialists as well. They've now got the most durable and flexible troops in the game when in a Decurion, good shooty jetbikes, excellent anti-horde fire support, super-cost effective melee blockers (Lychguard with sword and board are 15 points less than TH/SS termies with one less armour save, higher toughness, reanimation, extra wound, higher effective initiative but are "only" St5 Ap3) and so on and so forth.

The only bad things in there are C'tan being too random to use in any way effectively and scarabs are thuroughly mediocre.

When many armies struggle to field a legal CAD without "tax" units which are otherwise useless or horribly cost-ineffecient, I suspect Necrons will be right up there with Eldar/Daemons/Tau in power; not as reliant on cheesy broken combinations as Daemons/Eldar, but more by just being better and more cost effective at most things. They certainly aren't a deathstar codex (thank god, I find deathstars incredibly tiresome to play so consistently against) but that might actually make them better; deathstars usually have weaknesses which can be exploited, a straight up powerful codex, like the Eldar, will allow people to win against some armies by codex choice alone.

Does anybody know if Trazyn and Illuminor Szeras got buffed or nerfed?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MajorStoffer wrote:
super-cost effective melee blockers (Lychguard with sword and board are 15 points less than TH/SS termies with one less armour save, higher toughness, reanimation, extra wound, higher effective initiative but are "only" St5 Ap3) and so on and so forth.

Arent Lychguard 1 wound?

Illuminor is roughly the same price and Eldritch Lance is better.
I still think he brings too little and costs too much.

Trazyn I am not sure on.
+A lot cheaper
+Stronger attacks
+/-Hits all models within 6" of the faction when he kills.
-His ability only works in a challenge when you slay the character.
-He can only replace non-Unique characters when he dies.

I would say he is buffed and for this reason: In the old Codex I would not take him, now I would actually think about it for a second.

 BlackArmour wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:
Gotta be a 100% honest here - When I hear that a codex is almost univeraslly good from most people, I fear that the codex in question is too powerful, whereas, when the community is either lukewarm or simply disliking a new book, I believe it must be a great book, because many people are angry that their usual, powerful cheese-lists are invalidated. Call me a cynic and I wouldn't stop you.

I guess we'll see. Games weren't won on Sempiternal Weave alone.

This is generally true.....

The fact that you're getting a ton of smiles from Necron players should in fact worry everyone.

I'm thinking this book just broke the 7th edition "balance" trend and is the first in 7th with some codex creep ( Yes even with the nerfs).

guess we will see what the next codex brings.

I was not happy to learn that Wraiths gained 1T and kept their 3++ without a larger point increase. They were too hard to kill already and now are even more of a hassle. There was one thing I wanted with this codex and we got the opposite. Something that moves that fast with that many attacks should not be that hard to kill.

At least the first Waaaagh! with my new army (green tide) took out 4 of them on the charge . Although I had to bring 38 choppa boys and two Nobz to do that...

ImAGeek wrote:

 Byte wrote:
Not broken, "Invisibility" and resultant invisible Imperial Knights and Centstars are broken.

Nothing Necron will be Invisible.

Invisibility isn't the one sole broken thing in the game. Things can be broken without it.

Of course. I was providing an example of broken in response to an earlier post. You took my post out of context.

 MajorStoffer wrote:
They certainly aren't a deathstar codex (thank god, I find deathstars incredibly tiresome to play so consistently against) but that might actually make them better; deathstars usually have weaknesses which can be exploited, a straight up powerful codex, like the Eldar, will allow people to win against some armies by codex choice alone.

Is there a weakness to Wraithstar? Aside from no ObjSec since they can probably kill any troop off an objective easily.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Does anybody know if Trazyn and Illuminor Szeras got buffed or nerfed?

Trazyn is cheaper, but absolute garbage.

His weapon is still worthless, and it's all he has. He no longer has MSS (old or new), nor any replacement to make him useful against MCs or in challenges. Nor does he have any scoring ability, any replacement ability or any buffs for his squad.

Furthermore, his revival ability can no longer target Lychguard, and was made even worse with the loss of cheap crypteks and lords.

So, what we end up with is a useless sack of crap who can revive himself by killing off your other, more useful characters. It would be like if IG players could revive Nork Deddog by shelling their own units with a Manticore barrage.

Also, with the removal of 'Another piece for the collection', Trazyn now has no reason to ever join battle.

lustigjh wrote:

 MajorStoffer wrote:
They certainly aren't a deathstar codex (thank god, I find deathstars incredibly tiresome to play so consistently against) but that might actually make them better; deathstars usually have weaknesses which can be exploited, a straight up powerful codex, like the Eldar, will allow people to win against some armies by codex choice alone.

Is there a weakness to Wraithstar? Aside from no ObjSec since they can probably kill any troop off an objective easily.

Indeed, Wraithstar is very strong even if not taken in a decursion detachment.

lustigjh wrote:

 MajorStoffer wrote:
They certainly aren't a deathstar codex (thank god, I find deathstars incredibly tiresome to play so consistently against) but that might actually make them better; deathstars usually have weaknesses which can be exploited, a straight up powerful codex, like the Eldar, will allow people to win against some armies by codex choice alone.

Is there a weakness to Wraithstar? Aside from no ObjSec since they can probably kill any troop off an objective easily.

No psychic support.

No IC support without jumping through hoops in the movement and assault phase.

Formation requires being within 12" of the Spyder which more or less removes the possibility of running with Wraiths (who have fleet so that's a much larger slow down then most people give it credit for).

Can't do gak to flyers.

 SilverDevilfish wrote:

lustigjh wrote:

 MajorStoffer wrote:
They certainly aren't a deathstar codex (thank god, I find deathstars incredibly tiresome to play so consistently against) but that might actually make them better; deathstars usually have weaknesses which can be exploited, a straight up powerful codex, like the Eldar, will allow people to win against some armies by codex choice alone.

Is there a weakness to Wraithstar? Aside from no ObjSec since they can probably kill any troop off an objective easily.

No psychic support.

No IC support without jumping through hoops in the movement and assault phase.

Formation requires being within 12" of the Spyder which more or less removes the possibility of running with Wraiths (who have fleet so that's a much larger slow down then most people give it credit for).

Can't do gak to flyers.

Indeed,

I didn't imply that the weaknesses in deathstars are easily exploited; invisible centstar relies on throwing a billion deny dice and hitting them with St10 Ap2 large blasts, Seer Councils require catching them in melee, etc, but there are usually some weaknesses of some kind to a deathstar, especially as they usually take a king's ransom in points.

A flat-out overpowered codex like Eldar has the issue of everything simply being better than yours, which doesn't leave angles to exploit, which is a risk I can see with Necrons (though by no means to the same extent).

Kangodo wrote:
I do not see it as a nerf.
They went from lowering AV to auto-glancing on a 6.

Its actually a pretty big nerf.

Say 5 scarabs assault a land raider

Before they would cause 18 hits, knock of 9 armour value points and do 3 glances and 12 pens. Now they get 18 hits and cause 3 hull points, but cost 25pts more. The points to damage ratios are much higher now. Still works just not auto win.

Yeah, I forgot that they lowered AV on a 4+ and not on a 6+

nerfs are only nerfs if they arent still good. they are still good

 Jancoran wrote:
nerfs are only nerfs if they arent still good. they are still good

Not really. A nerf is just if something is reduced from its former power. It's effectiveness is irrelevant.

Kangodo wrote:
Illuminor is roughly the same price and Eldritch Lance is better.
I still think he brings too little and costs too much.

Trazyn I am not sure on.
+A lot cheaper
+Stronger attacks
+/-Hits all models within 6" of the faction when he kills.
-His ability only works in a challenge when you slay the character.
-He can only replace non-Unique characters when he dies.

I would say he is buffed and for this reason: In the old Codex I would not take him, now I would actually think about it for a second.

Illuminor looks really good to me. He is basically an extremely powerful Cryptek with a nice gun and a cool buffing ability. I can definitely see myself using him.

Trazyn looks like he's overpriced by about 30 points, and is really niche. Against Orks he is golden, as he can kill a Nob in a challenge and then explode the rest of the unit. Same goes if he's against guardsmen. His biggest problem is an AP4 weapon, so he lacks effectiveness killing MEQ. He also lacks flavor, now I'm curious what, "another piece for the collection" used to do. I'd say he's good against any army of primarily 4+ saves (on characters), but is lacking against everything else. He's only really useable if you know who you're playing beforehand. Also, his Surrogate Host rule is really ineffective as you are essentially paying 50 more points for Trazyn if you take a Lord as a backup for him.

 Jancoran wrote:
nerfs are only nerfs if they arent still good. they are still good

Current rules 6 bases, 5 attacks each on the charge, for a total of 30 atacks, 20 hit (67% hit), 3 Glance (16%)
Old rules 6 bases, 5 attacks each on the charge, for a total of 30 atacks, 20 hit (67% hit), 10 Glance (50%)

They are are 33% more expensive and only 33% as effective as they were against armor.

Scarabs are no longer completely useless against monster creatures, but only barely. They only inflict wounds on MCs, as often as they glance now, with AP -, so MCs get thier full saves.

Scarabs were cheap, excellent tar pits, who were amazing amazing against armor.
Scarabs are now mediocre for their points, good tar pits, who rely on rolling 6's to damage to be usefull.

In the Canoptek Formation fielded in a Decurion, they are much better, but it's a pretty significant amount of points to get a singe swarm of scarabs back to being scary.

 Waaagh 18 wrote:
Illuminor looks really good to me. He is basically an extremely powerful Cryptek with a nice gun and a cool buffing ability. I can definitely see myself using him.

My issue with Illuminor is that he comes with a mandatory - arguably worse - Technomancy.
I am probably going to field a Decurion, that means I am paying 30 or so points for an ability that I don't want.
Which is btw my biggest issue with Crypteks!
They give a buff (nice) which I already get from the Detachment (okay..) and it doesn't stack (crap).

A Cryptek with an Eldritch Lance used to be 35 point.
You are now paying 75 points more for the random buff and Technomancy.

Illuminor was bad and he is probably the only special character that hasn't been buffed.

Trazyn looks like he's overpriced by about 30 points, and is really niche. Against Orks he is golden, as he can kill a Nob in a challenge and then explode the rest of the unit. Same goes if he's against guardsmen. His biggest problem is an AP4 weapon, so he lacks effectiveness killing MEQ. He also lacks flavor, now I'm curious what, "another piece for the collection" used to do. I'd say he's good against any army of primarily 4+ saves (on characters), but is lacking against everything else. He's only really useable if you know who you're playing beforehand. Also, his Surrogate Host rule is really ineffective as you are essentially paying 50 more points for Trazyn if you take a Lord as a backup for him.

I agree, but he was always useless like that.
"Another piece" made him and his unit Scoring.
Yes, his replacement sucks now.
Do you believe he used to be 175 points?

 Waaagh 18 wrote:

Trazyn looks like he's overpriced by about 30 points, and is really niche. Against Orks he is golden, as he can kill a Nob in a challenge and then explode the rest of the unit. Same goes if he's against guardsmen.

But, why would either of those accept his challenge?

 Waaagh 18 wrote:
He also lacks flavor, now I'm curious what, "another piece for the collection" used to do.

It used to make him scoring.

Fluffwise, it represented the fact that he only ever does battle because he's looking for some artefact or other. Without that rule (and hence that fluff), there's no reason why he would ever engage in battle - let alone lead any sort of army.

 Waaagh 18 wrote:
Also, his Surrogate Host rule is really ineffective as you are essentially paying 50 more points for Trazyn if you take a Lord as a backup for him.

Yep.

Though, even without that tax, I struggle to see what we're supposedly paying for. His weapon is awful, Surrogate Hosts is basically an additional tax anyway... and that's it. He doesn't have anything else and he doesn't do anything else.

Looking through my codex, noticed it says OL and Lords can take weapons from the Ranged and Melee weapons. All of the weapons are listed here (no distinction between Vehicle Weapons and troop weapons and vehicle equipment only lists eternity gate and quantum shielding) you could, technically, give them things like the Transdimensional Beamer; any gauss/tesla/particle weapons; Flayer claws; whip coils (which would be a sweet combo for a flayer lord).

Not that I would ever take anything over a warsythe or variant thereof, just found it interesting there's nothing keeping you from putting a Gauss Flayer Array on your OL.

Also first post cause why not

 vipoid wrote:
But, why would either of those accept his challenge?

Because in this pace in a year every single character must always issue and accept challenges.

The focus on challenges in this Codex is ridiculous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BomBomHotdog wrote:
Looking through my codex, noticed it says OL and Lords can take weapons from the Ranged and Melee weapons. All of the weapons are listed here (no distinction between Vehicle Weapons and troop weapons and vehicle equipment only lists eternity gate and quantum shielding) you could, technically, give them things like the Transdimensional Beamer; any gauss/tesla/particle weapons; Flayer claws; whip coils (which would be a sweet combo for a flayer lord).

Not that I would ever take anything over a warsythe or variant thereof, just found it interesting there's nothing keeping you from putting a Gauss Flayer Array on your OL.

Also first post cause why not

No, on the page before the Overlord it has a list that tells you which is what.

Trazyn lost his rule because EVERYTHING is scoring. Though I'm surprised they didn't give him Objective Secured to replace it.

Kangodo wrote:

No, on the page before the Overlord it has a list that tells you which is what.

Ha dont know how I missed that. Really should be been placed right before the actual equipment lists and after the unit profiles.

silly wonky 7th ed layouts

BomBomHotdog wrote:

Kangodo wrote:

No, on the page before the Overlord it has a list that tells you which is what.

Ha dont know how I missed that. Really should be been placed right before the actual equipment lists and after the unit profiles.

silly wonky 7th ed layouts

7th Edition? Welcome to 3rd Edition son.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Trazyn lost his rule because EVERYTHING is scoring. Though I'm surprised they didn't give him Objective Secured to replace it.

That's what I meant.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

7th Edition? Welcome to 3rd Edition son.

Flayed Ones may not of gotten back their awesome "take a LD check, if you fail you don't get to attack this turn" but at least they got 2 close combat weapons with shred

Also nice to see that Nightbringer and Deceiver got their own profiles and special rules again

BomBomHotdog wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

7th Edition? Welcome to 3rd Edition son.

Flayed Ones may not of gotten back their awesome "take a LD check, if you fail you don't get to attack this turn" but at least they got 2 close combat weapons with shred

Also nice to see that Nightbringer and Deceiver got their own profiles and special rules again

I was referencing the wargear list thing actually.

Just a quick question that I haven't seen brought up. Wraith's with whipcoils. 3 point upgrade as appossed to 10? Feels like Wraiths really need to take them. Makes them I5 which is striking before most things that they will be attacking anyway. Now, do you feel this is improved? Before was 45 Points a coil wraith and is now 43 with an extra toughness and potential RP. What do you guys think?

Obviously an enormous upgrade
I still don't get why they did this.. Or why they nerfed Scarabs.

Could it be that the intern overlooking our codex confused the two?
I can see him sitting there, reading the comments: "Oooh, Canoptek WRAITHS were used in nearly every tournament list!?"

I think the Living Metal rule is a cool upgrade.

Living Tomb looks good to me. Precision entry of 2 units of 20 rapid fire Gauss shots is no joke.

Kangodo wrote:

 Waaagh 18 wrote:
Illuminor looks really good to me. He is basically an extremely powerful Cryptek with a nice gun and a cool buffing ability. I can definitely see myself using him.

My issue with Illuminor is that he comes with a mandatory - arguably worse - Technomancy.
I am probably going to field a Decurion, that means I am paying 30 or so points for an ability that I don't want.
Which is btw my biggest issue with Crypteks!
They give a buff (nice) which I already get from the Detachment (okay..) and it doesn't stack (crap).

A Cryptek with an Eldritch Lance used to be 35 point.
You are now paying 75 points more for the random buff and Technomancy.

Illuminor was bad and he is probably the only special character that hasn't been buffed.

Trazyn looks like he's overpriced by about 30 points, and is really niche. Against Orks he is golden, as he can kill a Nob in a challenge and then explode the rest of the unit. Same goes if he's against guardsmen. His biggest problem is an AP4 weapon, so he lacks effectiveness killing MEQ. He also lacks flavor, now I'm curious what, "another piece for the collection" used to do. I'd say he's good against any army of primarily 4+ saves (on characters), but is lacking against everything else. He's only really useable if you know who you're playing beforehand. Also, his Surrogate Host rule is really ineffective as you are essentially paying 50 more points for Trazyn if you take a Lord as a backup for him.

I agree, but he was always useless like that.
"Another piece" made him and his unit Scoring.
Yes, his replacement sucks now.
Do you believe he used to be 175 points?

If Trazyn was objective secured he would be infinitely more useful, especially since the decurion doesn't have OS. Then he might have a little place, bouncing around claiming objectives. It's hard to believe he used to be 175, I think if he'd kept OS, he would have actually been fairly priced. I think Illuminor is good if you were taking a Cryptek anyway. For 55 points more you get a cool lance thing, buffing units within 6", his buff of a unit, and a better profile. I think that especially in a CAD, he is quite good.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
nerfs are only nerfs if they arent still good. they are still good

Not really. A nerf is just if something is reduced from its former power. It's effectiveness is irrelevant.

We disagree. this term is so over used and misused. if someone wants to evaluate the codex AS objectively as that's EVEN posible, you gotta' leave yesterday alone and look at it on its own COSt and merits now. That it's NOT as powerful hardly matters because MANY things were simply too much and were FIXED. So why not call it fixed insted of "Nerf'd". Nerf'd seems to indicate to me that someone just LIKED having something broken to use. Lol. That doesnt speak well of the guy saying it. Im not attacking you but I'm jut making the point.

Kangodo wrote:

 Waaagh 18 wrote:
Illuminor looks really good to me. He is basically an extremely powerful Cryptek with a nice gun and a cool buffing ability. I can definitely see myself using him.

My issue with Illuminor is that he comes with a mandatory - arguably worse - Technomancy.
I am probably going to field a Decurion, that means I am paying 30 or so points for an ability that I don't want.
Which is btw my biggest issue with Crypteks!
They give a buff (nice) which I already get from the Detachment (okay..) and it doesn't stack (crap).

A Cryptek with an Eldritch Lance used to be 35 point.
You are now paying 75 points more for the random buff and Technomancy.

Illuminor was bad and he is probably the only special character that hasn't been buffed.

Um, the random buff is awesome. Also, Instant Death? Put a Cryptek, or Illuminor in a unit, even against Instant Death they have a 4+.... Also, Lance on his weapon now....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jasper76 wrote:
I think the Living Metal rule is a cool upgrade.

Living Tomb looks good to me. Precision entry of 2 units of 20 rapid fire Gauss shots is no joke.

Actually got me my hull point back on my Monolith yesterday. Pretty Sweet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deraiderspam wrote:
Just a quick question that I haven't seen brought up. Wraith's with whipcoils. 3 point upgrade as appossed to 10? Feels like Wraiths really need to take them. Makes them I5 which is striking before most things that they will be attacking anyway. Now, do you feel this is improved? Before was 45 Points a coil wraith and is now 43 with an extra toughness and potential RP. What do you guys think?

They are cheaper, and better against most targets, except some MCs. But, I'll be honest with you guys. I'll be running some with Particle Caster and at least 1 with a Transdimensional Beamer. Maybe a whole squad, to hell with it.

 Jancoran wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
nerfs are only nerfs if they arent still good. they are still good

Not really. A nerf is just if something is reduced from its former power. It's effectiveness is irrelevant.

We disagree. this term is so over used and misused. if someone wants to evaluate the codex AS objectively as that's EVEN posible, you gotta' leave yesterday alone and look at it on its own COSt and merits now. That it's NOT as powerful hardly matters because MANY things were simply too much and were FIXED. So why not call it fixed insted of "Nerf'd". Nerf'd seems to indicate to me that someone just LIKED having something broken to use. Lol. That doesnt speak well of the guy saying it. Im not attacking you but I'm jut making the point.

That logic would only apply if the game was symmetrical and the new Necron codex was playing only itself... which we all know this game is not. You have to compare it to the other choices because of that.

 Jancoran wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
nerfs are only nerfs if they arent still good. they are still good

Not really. A nerf is just if something is reduced from its former power. It's effectiveness is irrelevant.

We disagree. this term is so over used and misused. if someone wants to evaluate the codex AS objectively as that's EVEN posible, you gotta' leave yesterday alone and look at it on its own COSt and merits now. That it's NOT as powerful hardly matters because MANY things were simply too much and were FIXED. So why not call it fixed insted of "Nerf'd". Nerf'd seems to indicate to me that someone just LIKED having something broken to use. Lol. That doesnt speak well of the guy saying it. Im not attacking you but I'm jut making the point.

I'm not even getting into game mechanics, I'm going off basic language. To nerf something literally means to reduce it's power or effectiveness. Whether that's fixed or justified or however you want to spin it is fine, but don't try to redefine the term.

JReilly89 is correct. To "nerf" something is to reduce it's effectiveness, especially when discussing damage potential.

The term comes from the MMORPG community. It refered to the developers reducing the damage of particular items or combos and the new versions being compared to NERF toys by the payers.

It basically became known that any reduction in damage output is refered to as a nerf.

 MajorStoffer wrote:

Indeed,

I didn't imply that the weaknesses in deathstars are easily exploited; invisible centstar relies on throwing a billion deny dice and hitting them with St10 Ap2 large blasts, Seer Councils require catching them in melee, etc, but there are usually some weaknesses of some kind to a deathstar, especially as they usually take a king's ransom in points.

A flat-out overpowered codex like Eldar has the issue of everything simply being better than yours, which doesn't leave angles to exploit, which is a risk I can see with Necrons (though by no means to the same extent).

Did you know that in the English Speaking world, Eldar aren't as dominant as in France ?

I mean, you French have this impression that Eldar have 70+% win rates when the ToF statistics are at 55% or something.

Necrons were very powerful before this new codex (50+% win rate), if the codex happens to be an overall buff, they will be just as problematic as Eldar.

ToF had them at 70%, not sure what you are aiming at?

Kangodo wrote:
ToF had them at 70%, not sure what you are aiming at?

Get your facts up to date...

ToF had the Eldar at 66% during the end of sixth edition, thanks to BeastStars and SeerStars.

Since 7th, they've been at 55% or something, and recently Necrons rank even higher (read the post about the meta for 2015).

Who cares if the Eldar used to be crazy good six months ago.

You seem to be implying Eldar are no longer a good army...
If that was the case, why are the the 2nd highest ranked?

may be second highest, but even with necrons being the highest they are still not as widely played as other top tier armies. idk, regardless of stats I feel necrons are very lackluster.. they just don't bring that scare factor tau or eldar or marines do.

Look at threads like "How to counter Wraiths" and you'll find out lots of scared people. Including me

On the sidenote, newcrons are super durable and the rules have lots of loopholes. I think it's gona be a top-tier hated army like eldar used to be.

Eh. I play orks. We aren't scared of anything :/ you always win when you play orks.

Yeah I predict that Wraiths, Canoptek Harvest, Destroyer Cults and Tomb Blades (and possibly Flayed Ones... I'm surprised I'm actually saying that) will receive the most hate.

So the AnniBarge/Night Scythe hate is replaced with 1 (maybe 2) units and two fairly expensive formations.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
You seem to be implying Eldar are no longer a good army...
If that was the case, why are the the 2nd highest ranked?

I am implying that they're a good army, like many others.

When you have IK at 62%, Eldar at 56%, Tau at 54% and Necrons at 52%, it doesn't make sense to consider any of these separately and to give them special treatment (like "Eldar is a crazy overpowered codex").

They're much weaker than they've been for sure, and if (IF) the Necron Codex ends up being stronger than the previous one, they'll be at 56+% and Eldar are going to go down for it.

That's what i'm talking about.

It remains to be seen whether Wraiths and other buffs will be enough to compensate for the nerf of the Scythes, AB, Tesla and MSS.

One thing thats wierd about this codex. There are all these doodads that improve RP by 1 conditionally. Or you can add 1 unit of Immortals and 1 unit of Tomb Blades, and you improve RP by 1 army-wide, unconditionally. I don't mind...but why? What is it about those Immortals and Tomb Blades that's supposed to work this kind of magic army-wide? I guess this amounts to an aesthetic complaint, but the Decurion seems to good to pass up, when compared to buying all these expensive doodads for each unit to get the improved RP. I suppose if you run vehicle-heavy, it might be worth not going the Decurion-route.

Unrelated, I bet people who run Necrons as Allies will be please by the availability of a low cost HQ.

Overall, this codex indeed seems more powerful, but mostly due to the formation benefits. This makes the army much more restrictive, because some of these formation benefits are too good to pass up.

Losing Cryptek variety IMO is my biggest gripe. If you run Decurion (which I plan on doing), I really can't think of a good reason to bring Crypteks (or a Royal Court for that matter). The only real reason I could think to do so is to spread a little daemon-style invul around, but it seems very expensive points-wise to do that, considering you'd also need to buy another Overlord and one Lord just to do so. I suppose outside of Decurion, the Crypteks will be quite valuable because of their RP buff and availability of 5++, but I'm just not seeing any added value within a Decurion.
I really liked Crypteks. They were our "psykers"...now that falls to CTans with decent powers but randomized to make them unpredictable and unreliable.

Oh well, overall I think my army is stronger. There's really not much outside of certain HQ choices I wouldn't consider taking at this point.

Hell, even the Doomsday Ark looks pretty good to me know.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I think the Decurion's 4+ RP army-wide (and conditionally rereollable) will be the most hated element of the new codex.

Things I won't miss: arguing about the old "Ever Living". Dealing with RP counters. Figuring out who's in base contact with Whip Coil Wraiths (unwieldy, model-wise). Arguing about Death Ray.

Also, is it just me, or does NZ seem even better than he was before? Picking a new Warlord Trait every turn, from either the codex or BRB, seems pretty damn powerful to me, and he's cheaper too! And still 2+!!!

Necrons lost offensive punch for better internal balance and stronger defense.

What I predict Necrons will do to competitive scene is force other armies away from fielding Multiple Small Units, if they want to remain competitive.

Duricon is good for vehicales if in one of the formations as they then ignore stunned and shaken (still lose hull points). As said the duricon is just good. But to get any crypteks you need to get the royal court and all that comes with it, and the formations arnt cheap (minimum 230 for harvest with no upgrades or 405 for basic judacare) plus there quite restrictive and you lose obsec.
Saying all that i'll still run it. The new crons are insanly durable and could if you get the mix right hit like a brick.

 adamsouza wrote:
Necrons lost offensive punch for better internal balance and stronger defense.

What I predict Necrons will do to competitive scene is force other armies away from fielding Multiple Small Units, if they want to remain competitive.

Do you really feel that they really lost that much offensive punch?

To me, it feels like Abarges and Nightscythes got taken down a notch. However, now we have stuff like the Obelisk, useful Flayed ones, Praetorians, better destroyers etc, that will fill that void.

Only punch I feel I've lost is the T CTan but everybody whined about him anyway.

I'll miss Destruktek "sniper" squads too.

And Haywire.

This codex was my starting point for Necrons. I flipped through the previous codex for fluff purposes awhile back and had heard whispers of a new codex around the corner, so i waited. Now looking through this book, I feel like its possibly too strong. I didn't want to be that guy who started a new army with the new shiny possibly OP dex, but o well.

I guess i can truly play with what i want now, and not be forced to play a cookie cutter list to be competitive

I'm going to research and test the use of a D-Lord with the Relic as our new AP2-Flamer that wounds on a 2+

Kangodo wrote:
I'm going to research and test the use of a D-Lord with the Relic as our new AP2-Flamer that wounds on a 2+

Wouldn't that be a really good swiss knife type of upgrade to one of your wraith packs ?

 Sasori wrote:


Do you really feel that they really lost that much offensive punch?

Tesla Nerf weakened Anti Air and combined with the points increase makes Annhilation barges much less competitive.

Entropic Touch nerfed down to Gauss. It's not useless, but nowhere near as good.

Cryptek offensive Nerf cost us ranged haywire and the ability to repeatedly deep strike around the board.

The net effect is we need to attack many more times to achieve the same results.

To be honest, I feel it was probably a fair trade, and most likely warrented.

To get back to your original question, yeah we definitely lost some punch.

My old Royal Court would bring Imperial Knights to tears in a single shooting phase, and scarabs would munch any vehicle in a single assault. Now the answer to those threats is tons of attacks hoping for 6s on damage rolls.

 adamsouza wrote:

 Sasori wrote:


Do you really feel that they really lost that much offensive punch?

Tesla Nerf weakened Anti Air and combined with the points increase makes Annhilation barges much less competitive.

Entropic Touch nerfed down to Gauss. It's not useless, but nowhere near as good.

Cryptek offensive Nerf cost us ranged haywire and the ability to repeatedly deep strike around the board.

The net effect is we need to attack many more times to achieve the same results.

To be honest, I feel it was probably a fair trade, and most likely warrented.

To get back to your original question, yeah we definitely lost some punch.

My old Royal Court would bring Imperial Knights to tears in a single shooting phase, and scarabs would munch any vehicle in a single assault. Now the answer to those threats is tons of attacks hoping for 6s on damage rolls.

These are some fair points.

The Haywire nerf is probably the worst. I feel we really lost our main way to deal with IK. That's still the biggest issue I'm having trouble with in my lists is dealing with them.

I feel a lot of the other stuff we just traded. for instance, instead of 3 abarges, we can just take an Obelisk now.

 Quickjager wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
nerfs are only nerfs if they arent still good. they are still good

Not really. A nerf is just if something is reduced from its former power. It's effectiveness is irrelevant.

We disagree. this term is so over used and misused. if someone wants to evaluate the codex AS objectively as that's EVEN posible, you gotta' leave yesterday alone and look at it on its own COSt and merits now. That it's NOT as powerful hardly matters because MANY things were simply too much and were FIXED. So why not call it fixed insted of "Nerf'd". Nerf'd seems to indicate to me that someone just LIKED having something broken to use. Lol. That doesnt speak well of the guy saying it. Im not attacking you but I'm jut making the point.

That logic would only apply if the game was symmetrical and the new Necron codex was playing only itself... which we all know this game is not. You have to compare it to the other choices because of that.

Not really. You are either fixing something thats not right or you are buffing it. A nerf is a very bad way to put this.

and symmetrical means zilch. Not even sure why that would enter this conversation. but whatevs. My point is solid. "NERF'ing something has been used to mean more than it should,. But hey its YMMV

 Mojo1jojo wrote:
Did minshackles really get nerfed ohhh I hope soo

It did!!

Played new necrons yesterday and it was lots of fun they got a awesome formation where they can reanimate on a 4+

It was a hard fought game and alot of new rules make it less complicated then the last time I played them. Only complaint was the lack of new units for the codex.

Mindshackle got nerfed to extinction, IMO.

 jasper76 wrote:
Mindshackle got nerfed to extinction, IMO.

Fear on 3D6 is pretty darn helpful against super units that normally can outclass the necrons. Necron Warriors and Immortals are ADEQUATE combatants but you cant say much more about them. making them relentless is pretty awesome though and if they can get the jump on a unit, it can be a painful experience. The Mindshackle scarabs really help in those fights where the tables are pretty much against them but at least with Fear, the enemy will not be striking nearly so well and it allows the Warriors or Immortals to hang in there until the Cavalry can do their thing instead of getting rejected and outclassed immediately.

So there's value there.

 Jancoran wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
Mindshackle got nerfed to extinction, IMO.

Fear on 3D6 is pretty darn helpful against super units that normally can outclass the necrons. Necron Warriors and Immortals are ADEQUATE combatants but you cant say much more about them. making them relentless is pretty awesome though and if they can get the jump on a unit, it can be a painful experience. The Mindshackle scarabs really help in those fights where the tables are pretty much against them but at least with Fear, the enemy will not be striking nearly so well and it allows the Warriors or Immortals to hang in there until the Cavalry can do their thing instead of getting rejected and outclassed immediately.

So there's value there.

Except it only works in challenges and half the good assault units in this game are fearless or ATSKNF. I'm not worried about losing Mind Shackle Scarabs, but they are a waste of points now, imo.

Love it 100%

 docdoom77 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
Mindshackle got nerfed to extinction, IMO.

Fear on 3D6 is pretty darn helpful against super units that normally can outclass the necrons. Necron Warriors and Immortals are ADEQUATE combatants but you cant say much more about them. making them relentless is pretty awesome though and if they can get the jump on a unit, it can be a painful experience. The Mindshackle scarabs really help in those fights where the tables are pretty much against them but at least with Fear, the enemy will not be striking nearly so well and it allows the Warriors or Immortals to hang in there until the Cavalry can do their thing instead of getting rejected and outclassed immediately.

So there's value there.

Except it only works in challenges and half the good assault units in this game are fearless or ATSKNF. I'm not worried about losing Mind Shackle Scarabs, but they are a waste of points now, imo.

You say "only" as if challenges don't happen with those that are not fearless!

In any event, I'm definitely not saying it needs to be a priority buy. I think I can live without them as well. But that wasn't really the discussion I was having. I was referring to the fact that the term Nerf'd is just way too misused to be of any value. Mindshackles are just one of a hundred examples.

I think in the context of what Necrons already do, which is go on init 2, you really need to value things that can even that playing field. because Init 2 on MOST of the characters means if you've not even TRIED to cause some kind of slow down in the enemies assault, you COULD quickly find yourself with one less character. And it matters, especially in Emperors Will missions but also on some Maelstrom cards and just in the general sense.

NOT taking them feels a bit like conceding their life. Haemonculi aren't fearless, and he's a dude you WANT to fear you, for example. Same for the Imperial Guard who can throw power axe's endlessly at you. And so on.

Anybody tried the new Doomsday Ark yet?

S10 instead of S9 is huge, as this means you can insta-kill T5 now.

Secondary fire is also better now, instead of a stupid flamer it is a S8 AP3 blast - I know 170 points for that is a waste, but say youre forced to reposition, then at least you can still threaten to insta-kill T4 3+ or worse units if they fail but one cover or inv. save.

Primary Weapon on the main firing mode means S10 AP1 and 2D6 armor pen picking the highest; with large blast and BS4 you'll rarely completely scatter off tanks and are almost guaranteed a pen where the AP1 comes in very handy.

 Jancoran wrote:

 docdoom77 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
Mindshackle got nerfed to extinction, IMO.

Fear on 3D6 is pretty darn helpful against super units that normally can outclass the necrons. Necron Warriors and Immortals are ADEQUATE combatants but you cant say much more about them. making them relentless is pretty awesome though and if they can get the jump on a unit, it can be a painful experience. The Mindshackle scarabs really help in those fights where the tables are pretty much against them but at least with Fear, the enemy will not be striking nearly so well and it allows the Warriors or Immortals to hang in there until the Cavalry can do their thing instead of getting rejected and outclassed immediately.

So there's value there.

Except it only works in challenges and half the good assault units in this game are fearless or ATSKNF. I'm not worried about losing Mind Shackle Scarabs, but they are a waste of points now, imo.

You say "only" as if challenges don't happen with those that are not fearless!

In any event, I'm definitely not saying it needs to be a priority buy. I think I can live without them as well. But that wasn't really the discussion I was having. I was referring to the fact that the term Nerf'd is just way too misused to be of any value. Mindshackles are just one of a hundred examples.

I think in the context of what Necrons already do, which is go on init 2, you really need to value things that can even that playing field. because Init 2 on MOST of the characters means if you've not even TRIED to cause some kind of slow down in the enemies assault, you COULD quickly find yourself with one less character. And it matters, especially in Emperors Will missions but also on some Maelstrom cards and just in the general sense.

NOT taking them feels a bit like conceding their life. Haemonculi aren't fearless, and he's a dude you WANT to fear you, for example. Same for the Imperial Guard who can throw power axe's endlessly at you. And so on.

To each their own. I'll never shell out 10 points for that thing. Far too situational. I'd rather have the gauntlet of fire if I have an extra 10 points.

 Sir Arun wrote:
Anybody tried the new Doomsday Ark yet?

S10 instead of S9 is huge, as this means you can insta-kill T5 now.

Secondary fire is also better now, instead of a stupid flamer it is a S8 AP3 blast - I know 170 points for that is a waste, but say youre forced to reposition, then at least you can still threaten to insta-kill T4 3+ or worse units if they fail but one cover or inv. save.

Primary Weapon on the main firing mode means S10 AP1 and 2D6 armor pen picking the highest; with large blast and BS4 you'll rarely completely scatter off tanks and are almost guaranteed a pen where the AP1 comes in very handy.

My buddy used one against me yesterday....it one-shotted an AV14 Vengence Battery from across the board on turn 2. The rest of his shots went wide before I blew it up with a Hunter missile, but I have to say, S10, AP1 large blast at 72' range is pretty dang effective, even at 170 points.

Reanimation Protocols is much more potent than it used to be. He only took a standard CAD and didn't use any crypteks (didn't have the points for it), but even at 5+, it saved alot of models. Destroyers are particularly obnoxious to get rid of, and being able to take a unit of Heavy Destroyers makes their anti-armour capabilities even more deadly. I wasn't impressed with the C'Tan's random power (he rarely got an appropriate power for the target), but Nightbringer's combat ability should not be overlooked. Had my buddy been more aggressive with the C'Tan as an assault monster, he probably would have beat me with ease, because I had nothing that could really stand up to it in assault.

Yeah Destroyers are aces.

Destroyers with 2 wounds is pretty fun. I like that they are tough now

Destroyers are meh. Pay 10 more points and you can get Heavy Destroyers who can feth up enemy tanks and still have half as much firepower as normal destroyers against MEQ with the added bonus of ignoring TEQ armor as well.

3 S9 Ap2 shots for 150 points might remind you of a Predator Annihilator with 12" less range and no twin-link on one of the weapons, which is a meh choice in the SM army to begin with, but in this case those 3 S9 AP2 shots can move and shoot at full BS, have a 360° fire arc, re-roll 1s to hit, regain lost wounds on a 5+ (handy if you have 2 wounds each), can jump-shoot-jump, and are comprised of a unit that has T5, 3+ saves and 6 wounds.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 BlackArmour wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:
Gotta be a 100% honest here - When I hear that a codex is almost univeraslly good from most people, I fear that the codex in question is too powerful, whereas, when the community is either lukewarm or simply disliking a new book, I believe it must be a great book, because many people are angry that their usual, powerful cheese-lists are invalidated. Call me a cynic and I wouldn't stop you.

I guess we'll see. Games weren't won on Sempiternal Weave alone.

This is generally true.....

The fact that you're getting a ton of smiles from Necron players should in fact worry everyone.

I'm thinking this book just broke the 7th edition "balance" trend and is the first in 7th with some codex creep ( Yes even with the nerfs).

guess we will see what the next codex brings.

Remove the decurian formations and they are much more in line with the other 7th edition books, probably still top tier but not horrible out of sync. With the decurian detachment and formations, they are likely broken. Time will tell, I get to play my first game against new necrons tomorrow.

lol no.....no they're not. The 7th codexs got balance and a few fun formations that not too many look even remotely broken, strong but not broken. The Necrons got unneeded buffs to units that were already good. a MASSIVE Buff to a function (RP) that was already good and useful and OH YES fluffy (Why the hell was this changed again?). I'm sorry an army that can have a 4+ FNP that can be used against Instant death with possible re-rolls of 1 and possible total re-roll to RP saves 1 time a game, makes a unit just insanely survivable. If SM got this kinda buff to FNP and easy access to it for their entire army this site would break down from the crying.

Also Saying that if you don't use the rules provided to you then they aren't that strong is sorta laughable , since you know everyone will be doing it.

this book needed some nerfs to the insanely good things (Trans Ctan, MSS) and buffs to units that were laughably bad ( Flayed ones, tomb blades, lynch guard etc.) a re-balancing just like the other 7th codexs. what it didn't need was buffs to every thing that was already good. (Yes I'm aware it got some nerfs to the insane things but its buffs out weight those nerfs)

This book is Eldar levels of power on its own and thats pretty sad considering it was looking like GW was finally getting rid of this kinda power creep. (looking sooooo hard at you wraiths)

also as a final point the wraith nonsense just proves how GW doesnt properly know how to point cost rules. That tiny raise in points for what it got in return it just stupid.

I'm hearing the same people who thought Necrons were broken good before are still complaining that Necrons are broken good now. Even though everything that was above average good before was nerfed.

5+/4+ RP is sweet, but you handle it the same way Xeno players face Space marines 2+/5++ Terminators, 3+/3++ Stormshields, 2+ Centurions, etc... with volumes of fire.

Just like you handle Death Company.
Just like you handle Blood Angels with a Sanguinary Priest.
Just like you handle Space Marines with an Apothacary.
Just like you handle Orks with a Painboy

Those seem like false equivalences.

All those units are either specific units or units with an attached IC.

Having FNP+1 on *every* unit in an army is a different matter.

 Jancoran wrote:
Destroyers with 2 wounds is pretty fun. I like that they are tough now

I'm liking this new Detsoyer Cult too. Looks friggin brutal. Only S10 will ID them to force the negative RP modifier, so they are so friggin durable now. Throw that special formation rule in the mix on a bunch of S5 AP3 Gauss and S9 AP2 Gauss which are already rerolling 1s to hit, and the 24" stuff can pop into and out of range with jetpacks. Seems pretty vicious to me. Decurion Reclamation Legion-Warrior Spam and Destroyer Cult is where I'm headed for a core army with this codex for the first game.

This codex is a big lift for those of us that like to play Warrior Spam. 4+/5++/4+++(with plenty of reroll shennigans) 20 Warrior blobs? Yes please!

 adamsouza wrote:
I'm hearing the same people who thought Necrons were broken good before are still complaining that Necrons are broken good now. Even though everything that was above average good before was nerfed.

5+/4+ RP is sweet, but you handle it the same way Xeno players face Space marines 2+/5++ Terminators, 3+/3++ Stormshields, 2+ Centurions, etc... with volumes of fire.

Just like you handle Death Company.
Just like you handle Blood Angels with a Sanguinary Priest.
Just like you handle Space Marines with an Apothacary.
Just like you handle Orks with a Painboy

That's great news for Tau, IG, and Green Tide. Not entirely sure my daemons or CSM are going to enjoy getting rolled through by underpriced Wraiths every game.

My feelings are about the new codex? If you're in the San Jose Ca area and want my Necrons, I'll sell my approximately 5000 points worth to you. Of course that was opinion before the codex dropped and didn't change with the new book.

 BlackArmour wrote:

Also Saying that if you don't use the rules provided to you then they aren't that strong is sorta laughable , since you know everyone will be doing it.

Sort of like how every Imperial player runs a Frankenstein army with Knights and Inquisitors stuffed into it regardless of the faction?

 BlackArmour wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 BlackArmour wrote:

 The Wise Dane wrote:
Gotta be a 100% honest here - When I hear that a codex is almost univeraslly good from most people, I fear that the codex in question is too powerful, whereas, when the community is either lukewarm or simply disliking a new book, I believe it must be a great book, because many people are angry that their usual, powerful cheese-lists are invalidated. Call me a cynic and I wouldn't stop you.

I guess we'll see. Games weren't won on Sempiternal Weave alone.

This is generally true.....

The fact that you're getting a ton of smiles from Necron players should in fact worry everyone.

I'm thinking this book just broke the 7th edition "balance" trend and is the first in 7th with some codex creep ( Yes even with the nerfs).

guess we will see what the next codex brings.

Remove the decurian formations and they are much more in line with the other 7th edition books, probably still top tier but not horrible out of sync. With the decurian detachment and formations, they are likely broken. Time will tell, I get to play my first game against new necrons tomorrow.

lol no.....no they're not. The 7th codexs got balance and a few fun formations that not too many look even remotely broken, strong but not broken. The Necrons got unneeded buffs to units that were already good. a MASSIVE Buff to a function (RP) that was already good and useful and OH YES fluffy (Why the hell was this changed again?). I'm sorry an army that can have a 4+ FNP that can be used against Instant death with possible re-rolls of 1 and possible total re-roll to RP saves 1 time a game, makes a unit just insanely survivable. If SM got this kinda buff to FNP and easy access to it for their entire army this site would break down from the crying.

Also Saying that if you don't use the rules provided to you then they aren't that strong is sorta laughable , since you know everyone will be doing it.

this book needed some nerfs to the insanely good things (Trans Ctan, MSS) and buffs to units that were laughably bad ( Flayed ones, tomb blades, lynch guard etc.) a re-balancing just like the other 7th codexs. what it didn't need was buffs to every thing that was already good. (Yes I'm aware it got some nerfs to the insane things but its buffs out weight those nerfs)

This book is Eldar levels of power on its own and thats pretty sad considering it was looking like GW was finally getting rid of this kinda power creep. (looking sooooo hard at you wraiths)

also as a final point the wraith nonsense just proves how GW doesnt properly know how to point cost rules. That tiny raise in points for what it got in return it just stupid.

I'm confused, you refute my claim that WITH the formations, the new Necrons are likely broken, but then go on an support the notion that Necrons might be broken....

Honestly, the blanket 4+ RP, which is then carried over to Canoptek units, is scary good. At 1500 points, a Decurian can have the reclamation legion and two Canoptek formations. That's an insanely hard army to counter for anybody at 1500 points, because its nigh invulnerable, is speedy enough to snag objectives every turn, and hits like a ton of bricks. The Decurian ramps up the arms race hard....which is likely GW's intent. My Crimson Fists are already visiting the lots and kicking the tires on some Imperial Knights, but my Chaos Daemons are likely just screwed :(

 Zathras wrote:
My feelings are about the new codex? If you're in the San Jose Ca area and want my Necrons, I'll sell my approximately 5000 points worth to you. Of course that was opinion before the codex dropped and didn't change with the new book.

So you have issues with the buffs to gak units and appropriate nerfs elsewhere. Got it.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Honestly, the blanket 4+ RP, which is then carried over to Canoptek units, is scary good. At 1500 points, a Decurian can have the reclamation legion and two Canoptek formations. That's an insanely hard army to counter for anybody at 1500 points, because its nigh invulnerable, is speedy enough to snag objectives every turn, and hits like a ton of bricks. The Decurian ramps up the arms race hard....which is likely GW's intent. My Crimson Fists are already visiting the lots and kicking the tires on some Imperial Knights, but my Chaos Daemons are likely just screwed :(

Sorry Miscommunication , my refute is that without the formations they are in line with other 7th codexs. which they are not even inline with them if you take out the formations ( which me and you agree send them way over the edge)

My proof is in other 7th codexs seeing debuffs to rules like Orks Mob rule or BA FNP bubble being reduced to on squad only and reduction on the number of guys you could bring that could hand it out. while RP got a Buff!?!? I can keep going on but its been said and everyone who has a 7th codex and is looking at the Necron one knows what I'm talking about.

Warriors cant be toughness 5 but wraiths can be toughness 5 with beast for 5ppm!?

I'm mad because every codex since eldar has been pretty dang balanced against one another , yet in one move the writer of this codex invalidated all of that. which mean we are back to square one again and like you said its an arms race again.

 BlackArmour wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Honestly, the blanket 4+ RP, which is then carried over to Canoptek units, is scary good. At 1500 points, a Decurian can have the reclamation legion and two Canoptek formations. That's an insanely hard army to counter for anybody at 1500 points, because its nigh invulnerable, is speedy enough to snag objectives every turn, and hits like a ton of bricks. The Decurian ramps up the arms race hard....which is likely GW's intent. My Crimson Fists are already visiting the lots and kicking the tires on some Imperial Knights, but my Chaos Daemons are likely just screwed :(

Sorry Miscommunication , my refute is that without the formations they are in line with other 7th codexs. which they are not even inline with them if you take out the formations ( which me and you agree send them way over the edge)
I'm mad because every codex since eldar has been pretty dang balanced against one another , yet in one move the writer of this codex invalidated all of that. which mean we are back to square one again and like you said its an arms race again.

I don't think so.

Take Space Wolves for instance, their best unit is TWC. What is Wraith compared to TWC ?

And Necrons have a lot more.


Lastly, quit pretending that Eldar was the only bad apple, that's just the kind of bs we've all heard far too much of.

Daemons are horrible, so is Tau, Eldar and Necrons which should have been nerfed (and I still hope they have been, time will tell)



I sure hope Necrons have indeed been nerfed and the rest of the codex updates will make Eldar, Daemons and Tau more internally and externally balanced

Has anyone else though of my Lychguard Deathstar Idea?

Orikan + Lord with Solar Staff/Res orb + Overlord with Voidreaper/res orb + 10 Sword and Board Lychguard?

3+/3++ rerolling 1s on saves, 4+ RP rerolling 1s, T5, drop them out a night scythe, pop the solar staff so their invisible. Go to town next turn.

Or use Warsythe Lychguard and bring a Cryptek with a Chronometron instead of the Lord.

Fun things to think about.

Lynchguard is too slow. Once they are deployed they are grounded.
I'd opt for Praetorians.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Lynchguard is too slow. Once they are deployed they are grounded.
I'd opt for Praetorians.

Or, night Scythe, with a VoD cryptek.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Lynchguard is too slow. Once they are deployed they are grounded.
I'd opt for Praetorians.

Or, night Scythe, with a VoD cryptek.

However, the NS might come in at turn two and so the Lynchguard can charge at round three, veil at round four, and the charge again at round five.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Lynchguard is too slow. Once they are deployed they are grounded.
I'd opt for Praetorians.

The problem there is, Praetorians can't really have a Cryptek or Lord join them so their durability suffers. Lychguard w/full complement of ICs with the solar staff in a Nightscythe shouldn't have any trouble reaching combat largely intact, and as long as its not against TEQ, they would likely win said combat.

Not that Praetorians aren't freakin' amazing in their own right, just not as durable.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Zathras wrote:
My feelings are about the new codex? If you're in the San Jose Ca area and want my Necrons, I'll sell my approximately 5000 points worth to you. Of course that was opinion before the codex dropped and didn't change with the new book.

So you have issues with the buffs to gak units and appropriate nerfs elsewhere. Got it.

And the survey says.....BZZZZZT...wrong. Nothing wrong with the new codex that I could see with the quick look I took. I haven't played 40k since the begining of 6th ed and the new codex will not change this. My issue is with GW and their business practices and my refusal to spend anymore money on their overpriced merchandise, not the new codex. It's also an offer to anyone that live in my area who might like to get a Necron army on the cheap and to get some cash for a new(er) car.

 jasper76 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Destroyers with 2 wounds is pretty fun. I like that they are tough now

I'm liking this new Detsoyer Cult too. Looks friggin brutal. Only S10 will ID them to force the negative RP modifier, so they are so friggin durable now. Throw that special formation rule in the mix on a bunch of S5 AP3 Gauss and S9 AP2 Gauss which are already rerolling 1s to hit, and the 24" stuff can pop into and out of range with jetpacks. Seems pretty vicious to me. Decurion Reclamation Legion-Warrior Spam and Destroyer Cult is where I'm headed for a core army with this codex for the first game.

This codex is a big lift for those of us that like to play Warrior Spam. 4+/5++/4+++(with plenty of reroll shennigans) 20 Warrior blobs? Yes please!

Dont even need the Decurion bonus. Just use the Cult on its own for that matter.

 krodarklorr wrote:
Has anyone else though of my Lychguard Deathstar Idea?

Orikan + Lord with Solar Staff/Res orb + Overlord with Voidreaper/res orb + 10 Sword and Board Lychguard?

3+/3++ rerolling 1s on saves, 4+ RP rerolling 1s, T5, drop them out a night scythe, pop the solar staff so their invisible. Go to town next turn.

Or use Warsythe Lychguard and bring a Cryptek with a Chronometron instead of the Lord.

Fun things to think about.

I saw the synergy of rerolling a 2+ armor save with Orikan

D-Lord w/ Warscythe, Phase Shifter, Shroud, and whatever else you want to flavor him with
Orikan
Lychgard with scythes

Throw em all in a Night Scythe and hope it hits the board. Otherwise, add a lord with Veil and Solar Staff and Deep Strike them where you want, when you want. Once they deploy, put the D-Lord in front or most likely spot where you will take fire from, Orikan in a safe spot, and enjoy your rerollable 2+ armor save and 4++ RP. If you have the points, give the D-Lord an orb if you think you're going to take a ton of heat. Such a beast assault unit.

Yeah, and slow, CC units need to be fast.

morgoth wrote:
I don't think so.

Take Space Wolves for instance, their best unit is TWC. What is Wraith compared to TWC ?

And Necrons have a lot more.


Lastly, quit pretending that Eldar was the only bad apple, that's just the kind of bs we've all heard far too much of.

Daemons are horrible, so is Tau, Eldar and Necrons which should have been nerfed (and I still hope they have been, time will tell)



I sure hope Necrons have indeed been nerfed and the rest of the codex updates will make Eldar, Daemons and Tau more internally and externally balanced

Tau came before eldar and I said after eldar and I 100% mean all of the 7th codexs have been mostly balanced against each other. That doesn't mean great internal balance mind you.

Also with the TWC vs Wraith thing are we arguing the same thing? because for their points wraiths are insanely good and add in the formation with RP and they go to near unstoppable.

TWC are good but not unstoppable but thats the bright spot in the SW book and I think you and I agree that the Necrons have a lot of bright spots in this book.

The Necron book is above the other 7th books on its own and with the Formations is very likely stronger than Eldar. If you think the Necrons got nerfed overall then I ask you to go read it and show me where on the whole the Necrons didn't get buffed. I'm not talking about individual nerfs, It did get some of those but was far more buffed than nerfed. Often on units or rules that didn't need it and worked well as is.

I'm not trying to rain on Necron players parade, that book clearly needed some re-balancing, internally it was awful and there were units that needed some pretty big buffs.

I'm just disheartened that this one book comes along and kills what the 7th edition codexs were doing.

The only thing that is broken is the Wraiths with RP, everything else is strong but fine.

 Tyran wrote:
The only thing that is broken is the Wraiths with RP, everything else is strong but fine.

A lot of the formations are really silly, Tomb Blades are a bit cheap base but have absurdly underpriced upgraded (5ppm to go from a 4+ armor 4+ jink to 3+ armor/3+ jink and gain Ignores Cover), RP applying against every single wound (and not just the final wound) on top of units like Destroyers getting additional wounds is pretty huge, etc

 Tyran wrote:
The only thing that is broken is the Wraiths with RP, everything else is strong but fine.

lmao many of their formations are insane. RP buff was vastly un-needed and now yes borders on making Necrons broken.

This book vs all the other 7th books is broken and that is the current measure since you know its a 7th codex.

but arguing this will get me no where because people want to cry about broken until they get the broken item, then they just argue/pretend its not.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
The only thing that is broken is the Wraiths with RP, everything else is strong but fine.

A lot of the formations are really silly, Tomb Blades are a bit cheap base but have absurdly underpriced upgraded (5ppm to go from a 4+ armor 4+ jink to 3+ armor/3+ jink and gain Ignores Cover), RP applying against every single wound (and not just the final wound) on top of units like Destroyers getting additional wounds is pretty huge, etc

You cant have n-scoop and s-loom on the same model.

 Byte wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
The only thing that is broken is the Wraiths with RP, everything else is strong but fine.

A lot of the formations are really silly, Tomb Blades are a bit cheap base but have absurdly underpriced upgraded (5ppm to go from a 4+ armor 4+ jink to 3+ armor/3+ jink and gain Ignores Cover), RP applying against every single wound (and not just the final wound) on top of units like Destroyers getting additional wounds is pretty huge, etc

You cant have n-scoop and s-loom on the same model.

Ah, thanks for pointing that out, initially read it as "any model may take". Still however, potent upgrades for very low prices on fast and tough units.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Byte wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
The only thing that is broken is the Wraiths with RP, everything else is strong but fine.

A lot of the formations are really silly, Tomb Blades are a bit cheap base but have absurdly underpriced upgraded (5ppm to go from a 4+ armor 4+ jink to 3+ armor/3+ jink and gain Ignores Cover), RP applying against every single wound (and not just the final wound) on top of units like Destroyers getting additional wounds is pretty huge, etc

You cant have n-scoop and s-loom on the same model.

Ah, thanks for pointing that out, initially read it as "any model may take". Still however, potent upgrades for very low prices on fast and tough units.

Agreed, your point is still valid.

Necrons. So much death... So much DEATH...

Its Robot Zombies from the Astral Plane or something. Very cool right? I am collecting and amassing so many of them...

I am really glad lychguard got a point drop 200 for them was way to high.

I find it a little funny that assault based armies are finally coming back to 40k, nonetheless with the Necron codex. But yea the Lychguard did need that discount.

 Quickjager wrote:
I find it a little funny that assault based armies are finally coming back to 40k, nonetheless with the Necron codex. But yea the Lychguard did need that discount.

I have 10 who never see the board because they were way to expensive, now though, that will change.

 Quickjager wrote:
I find it a little funny that assault based armies are finally coming back to 40k, nonetheless with the Necron codex. But yea the Lychguard did need that discount.

Ive been running SW TWC with great success for some time now. Just saying.

 BlackArmour wrote:


I'm just disheartened that this one book comes along and kills what the 7th edition codexs were doing.

In 8th Fantasy people thought the armybooks were going to be toned down for a while, then bam Phil Kelly.

Never try to predict GWs dev team, they don't even know what they're going to do next.

 SilverDevilfish wrote:

 BlackArmour wrote:


I'm just disheartened that this one book comes along and kills what the 7th edition codexs were doing.

In 8th Fantasy people thought the armybooks were going to be toned down for a while, then bam Phil Kelly.

Never try to predict GWs dev team, they don't even know what they're going to do next.

Trust me, I would be less than shocked to find out this is his doing.

However I agree and wont soon make the same mistake again.

 BlackArmour wrote:

morgoth wrote:
I don't think so.

Take Space Wolves for instance, their best unit is TWC. What is Wraith compared to TWC ?

And Necrons have a lot more.


Lastly, quit pretending that Eldar was the only bad apple, that's just the kind of bs we've all heard far too much of.

Daemons are horrible, so is Tau, Eldar and Necrons which should have been nerfed (and I still hope they have been, time will tell)



I sure hope Necrons have indeed been nerfed and the rest of the codex updates will make Eldar, Daemons and Tau more internally and externally balanced

Tau came before eldar and I said after eldar and I 100% mean all of the 7th codexs have been mostly balanced against each other. That doesn't mean great internal balance mind you.

Also with the TWC vs Wraith thing are we arguing the same thing? because for their points wraiths are insanely good and add in the formation with RP and they go to near unstoppable.

TWC are good but not unstoppable but thats the bright spot in the SW book and I think you and I agree that the Necrons have a lot of bright spots in this book.

The Necron book is above the other 7th books on its own and with the Formations is very likely stronger than Eldar. If you think the Necrons got nerfed overall then I ask you to go read it and show me where on the whole the Necrons didn't get buffed. I'm not talking about individual nerfs, It did get some of those but was far more buffed than nerfed. Often on units or rules that didn't need it and worked well as is.

I'm not trying to rain on Necron players parade, that book clearly needed some re-balancing, internally it was awful and there were units that needed some pretty big buffs.

I'm just disheartened that this one book comes along and kills what the 7th edition codexs were doing.

I have no idea how it came to this, but we totally agree on Necrons that's for sure.

I'm still hesitant to call it though, because there may be unforeseen complications to the apparent improvement to the Necron Codex.

I think my point of view is more: I hope GW didn't feth up (i.e. buff or keep at same level) Necrons as it seems they did, I would have very much liked to see a full string of relatively balanced 7th ed type codexes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tyran wrote:
The only thing that is broken is the Wraiths with RP, everything else is strong but fine.

Said Wraiths were competitive for a while, before they got fleet, before they got +1 T (that is a HUGE buff right there), and before their upgrade was down costed.

Wraiths were competitive before those buffs, and that's not including RP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Byte wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
I find it a little funny that assault based armies are finally coming back to 40k, nonetheless with the Necron codex. But yea the Lychguard did need that discount.

Ive been running SW TWC with great success for some time now. Just saying.

You mean, for a few months.

I think he was more talking about a timescale of half a dozen years you know

 Tyran wrote:
The only thing that is broken is the Wraiths with RP, everything else is strong but fine.

Indeed, this is a big buff to Wraiths.

With the formation comes a tax in form of Scarabs and a Spyder.
This means less Wraiths as in armies of the former incarnation of the codex.
But inside Decursion less Wraiths, say 10 to 12, is not really a downside since they are much more durable.

So basically we trade 5 to 6 Wraiths for a 4+ RP.

Is it feasible to run NewCrons as a Terminator style army, tonnes of basic troops, a few monoliths/Heavies and a Lord here or there?
Im tempted to get into them but am very much of the old style mindset. Waves of mindless autonatoms crunching across the field.

I would be tempted to do a Cylon armie with the 'Crons; it doesn't take much work to turn a Croissant into a Raider, and the standard Necron infantry work well enough as they are.

Problem is, that idea, alongside many others is currently sitting on ice until I see reason to invest large-scale in more GW product. Category of: I'd love to, but can't justify it. If anything, having a concerningly powerful looking ruleset makes me less likely to want to do it; curbstomping people by codex choice isn't exactly fun, it's why I reserve my beloved Armoured Company for people who really irritate me.

 Ratius wrote:
Is it feasible to run NewCrons as a Terminator style army, tonnes of basic troops, a few monoliths/Heavies and a Lord here or there?
Im tempted to get into them but am very much of the old style mindset. Waves of mindless autonatoms crunching across the field.

I own six monoliths. About to find out. I have already tracked down Space invader sound effects to use during my games

 Ratius wrote:
Is it feasible to run NewCrons as a Terminator style army, tonnes of basic troops, a few monoliths/Heavies and a Lord here or there?
Im tempted to get into them but am very much of the old style mindset. Waves of mindless autonatoms crunching across the field.

Certainly feasible. This is Warrior Spam. It was debateably good with the last codex (I certainly had alot of success with it, with appopriate support units), and it just got a whole lot better with the new Codex.

yeah the Reanimation protocols being able to be boosted so much REALLY changes the complexion of the Necron Warriors.

@Ratius: There's even a new Obelisk/Monolith formation that provides scatter protection for Deep Striking Monoliths, and allows a reserve unit to exit the Monolith the very turn that it arrives with no need to roll for those reserves.

Great, thanks!