So, going over the codex again and again, and talking with some friends of mine, I've realized that Necrons, while very well balanced internally, are crazy powerful compared to how they used to be. I've sat down and thought of all the issues I've had fighting against other armies, and no armies out there (save for an entire Imperial Knight army) really threatens me anymore. Necrons see to have an answer for everything, since all of their units are viable now. HQs aren't quite as killy, but more supportive, and arguable harder to kill. Troops are tough as nails. Elites are cheaper and everything has a viable use. Heavy Supports are worth it now. Fast Attack are still good, and even more became good. And the Decurion Detachment is ridiculous. Sure, I personally feel it gives the book it's own flavor, and is very fluffy in itself, but the benefits seem to be too good, when you think about it.
Necrons very well could be the next Eldar in terms of power level, though without a lot of cheese. I don't wanna become "that guy" that nobody wants to play because Necrons are too good.
Do you guys think the power level is in a good spot? Or is it too much to handle compared to other 7th edition codexes? And if it is too much, what can we expect to see from other 7th edition codexes when they start updating them. What are your guy's thoughts on this matter?
I also apologize ahead of time if there is a thread already about this and I missed it.
I think it is a good codex, but in competitive sphere I do not think that it can usurp the eldar. I think it would be middle of the pack with likes of SW. Necrons excel in being walls/tanks, though I think they will have issues with maelstrom missions.
oz of the north wrote: I think it is a good codex, but in competitive sphere I do not think that it can usurp the eldar. I think it would be middle of the pack with likes of SW.
Why can't it usurp the Eldar? Lets loot at Serpent spam. We now have our own ignores cover, on a durable unit, which when backed up by a bargelord, would start to destroy their serpents turn 2. Then, Deathmarks can still deal with Wraithknights easily, as well as everything in our army being able to wound it now.
oz of the north wrote: I think it is a good codex, but in competitive sphere I do not think that it can usurp the eldar. I think it would be middle of the pack with likes of SW.
Why can't it usurp the Eldar? Lets loot at Serpent spam. We now have our own ignores cover, on a durable unit, which when backed up by a bargelord, would start to destroy their serpents turn 2. Then, Deathmarks can still deal with Wraithknights easily, as well as everything in our army being able to wound it now.
The eldar have the benefit of mobility that Necrons do not have a lot of, the only really ignore cover is on tomb blades. Also deathmarks can deal with a wraithknight, but after first turn in from deepstrike, you still just wound on a 4+, when wraithknight can easily kill entire unit.
Also no psyker really sucks or good psychic defense, with the only thing being spyders.
oz of the north wrote: I think it is a good codex, but in competitive sphere I do not think that it can usurp the eldar. I think it would be middle of the pack with likes of SW.
Why can't it usurp the Eldar? Lets loot at Serpent spam. We now have our own ignores cover, on a durable unit, which when backed up by a bargelord, would start to destroy their serpents turn 2. Then, Deathmarks can still deal with Wraithknights easily, as well as everything in our army being able to wound it now.
The eldar have the benefit of mobility that Necrons do not have a lot of, the only really ignore cover is on tomb blades. Also deathmarks can deal with a wraithknight, but after first turn in from deepstrike, you still just wound on a 4+, when wraithknight can easily kill entire unit.
Also no psyker really sucks or good psychic defense, with the only thing being spyders.
I dunno, I feel as if you're not giving Necrons enough credit. Sure, in Maelstrom, Eldar have a huge advantage, but competitive games are hardly Maelstrom from what I've seen. And if Deathmarks don't kill a Wraithknight in one turn of shooting, they rolled really badly.
Oh the Tau codex sucks. The Eldar codex sucks. Oh wait this was when people were reading the books and didn't try it. Now look. OMG Tau is OP. OMG Eldar is OP.
Now it's Necrons are OP by reading but yet no games played. Why not play over 10 games with the new Necrons before crying Chicken Little or saying how OP is everything?
Funny nobody, NOBODY was saying that when Tau and Eldar came out. Look what happens when a few games are played and proves everyone wrong.
I say take the ants out of the pants, relax, play a few games first and then see what happens.
oz of the north wrote: I think it is a good codex, but in competitive sphere I do not think that it can usurp the eldar. I think it would be middle of the pack with likes of SW.
Why can't it usurp the Eldar? Lets loot at Serpent spam. We now have our own ignores cover, on a durable unit, which when backed up by a bargelord, would start to destroy their serpents turn 2. Then, Deathmarks can still deal with Wraithknights easily, as well as everything in our army being able to wound it now.
The eldar have the benefit of mobility that Necrons do not have a lot of, the only really ignore cover is on tomb blades. Also deathmarks can deal with a wraithknight, but after first turn in from deepstrike, you still just wound on a 4+, when wraithknight can easily kill entire unit.
Also no psyker really sucks or good psychic defense, with the only thing being spyders.
I dunno, I feel as if you're not giving Necrons enough credit. Sure, in Maelstrom, Eldar have a huge advantage, but competitive games are hardly Maelstrom from what I've seen. And if Deathmarks don't kill a Wraithknight in one turn of shooting, they rolled really badly.
To be honest I feel you, and many other but not all necron playerS, are giving it to much credit. It's too tier... I'd say probably 4th best. Under tau, eldar, and imperial knights. Not near the best. It's.. meh for top tier.
Davor wrote: Oh the Tau codex sucks. The Eldar codex sucks. Oh wait this was when people were reading the books and didn't try it. Now look. OMG Tau is OP. OMG Eldar is OP.
Now it's Necrons are OP by reading but yet no games played. Why not play over 10 games with the new Necrons before crying Chicken Little or saying how OP is everything?
Funny nobody, NOBODY was saying that when Tau and Eldar came out. Look what happens when a few games are played and proves everyone wrong.
I say take the ants out of the pants, relax, play a few games first and then see what happens.
Well, sir. Sorry to upset you.
I have played a game so far, and I played against Khorne and Tzeentch Daemons, using things that are considered sub-optimal in the old book (Monolith, Nightbringer, Imotehk). My warriors survived a charge from Bloodcrushers, that dealt 19 wounds. I lost 2 wounds, and proceeded to tie combat. And the Nightbringer beat the snot out of a buffed up Lord of Change in CC.
Davor wrote: Oh the Tau codex sucks. The Eldar codex sucks. Oh wait this was when people were reading the books and didn't try it. Now look. OMG Tau is OP. OMG Eldar is OP.
Now it's Necrons are OP by reading but yet no games played. Why not play over 10 games with the new Necrons before crying Chicken Little or saying how OP is everything?
Funny nobody, NOBODY was saying that when Tau and Eldar came out. Look what happens when a few games are played and proves everyone wrong.
I say take the ants out of the pants, relax, play a few games first and then see what happens.
Well, sir. Sorry to upset you.
I have played a game so far, and I played against Khorne and Tzzentch Daemons, using things that are considered sub-optimal in the old book (Monolith, Nightbringer, Imotehk). My warriors survived a charge from Bloodcrushers, that dealt 19 wounds. I lost 2 wounds, and proceeded to tie combat. And the Nightbringer beat the snot out of a buffed up Lord of Change in CC.
You are not upsetting me. What I was saying is reading something doesn't prove nothing. By playing multiple games then you can prove something. It's great you played a game. Now you are doing something that a lot of people are not doing. Playing the game with facts instead of Mathhammer.
Davor wrote: Oh the Tau codex sucks. The Eldar codex sucks. Oh wait this was when people were reading the books and didn't try it. Now look. OMG Tau is OP. OMG Eldar is OP.
Now it's Necrons are OP by reading but yet no games played. Why not play over 10 games with the new Necrons before crying Chicken Little or saying how OP is everything?
Funny nobody, NOBODY was saying that when Tau and Eldar came out. Look what happens when a few games are played and proves everyone wrong.
I say take the ants out of the pants, relax, play a few games first and then see what happens.
Well, sir. Sorry to upset you.
I have played a game so far, and I played against Khorne and Tzzentch Daemons, using things that are considered sub-optimal in the old book (Monolith, Nightbringer, Imotehk). My warriors survived a charge from Bloodcrushers, that dealt 19 wounds. I lost 2 wounds, and proceeded to tie combat. And the Nightbringer beat the snot out of a buffed up Lord of Change in CC.
You are not upsetting me. What I was saying is reading something doesn't prove nothing. By playing multiple games then you can prove something. It's great you played a game. Now you are doing something that a lot of people are not doing. Playing the game with facts instead of Mathhammer.
I hate mathhamering. I'm just saying after my first list, even with suboptimal units from the previous codex, I tabled a good Daemon player. Now, obviously I have to play more games, but all the units I'd love to use seem to be a whole lot better now. I was already doing well with Necrons before. Now, I don't even know. >.>
I don't think it will, it is basically just a ward save from fantasy. It is not that hard to get around just got to use overwhelming firepower.
"It's not broken, you just need to have an absurd amount of firepower to get around it!"
I don't think I've seen a sillier response to something in quite some time.
Honestly, the Necron codex is very strong. There's no doubting it's a major reversal in power level trend of the late 6E and earlier 7E books. The army has mobility (not exactly 48" movement-in-one-turn mobility, but it's always in motion), it's certainly got firepower and punch, and insane resiliency.
The book bearing out to be as strong as Eldar would not surprise me in the least, particularly in places that have no restrictions on formations.
I don't think it will, it is basically just a ward save from fantasy. It is not that hard to get around just got to use overwhelming firepower.
"It's not broken, you just need to have an absurd amount of firepower to get around it!"
I don't think I've seen a sillier response to something in quite some time.
Honestly, the Necron codex is very strong. There's no doubting it's a major reversal in power level trend of the late 6E and earlier 7E books. The army has mobility (not exactly 48" movement-in-one-turn mobility, but it's always in motion), it's certainly got firepower and punch, and insane resiliency.
The book bearing out to be as strong as Eldar would not surprise me in the least, particularly in places that have no restrictions on formations.
I should have probably worded that better,similar to last edition focus fire on units and they will go down easily, then move onto next. But, a better FNP is not going to make the Necrons top tier. They are lacking psykers, which with the advent of invisibility will really cripple them, along with multiple other psychic abilities. Necrons are resilient, but do not have super killing power. Wounding/glancing on a 6 on gauss is nice, but not being able to easily ignore saves is what is going to cause big issues.
Played 2 games last night vs wraith and destroyer spam and got housed. I run ork speed freaks and used to handle wraiths pretty easy, that T5 is a huge game changer. And the 4+ uber fnp on warriors and destroyers can be pretty frustrating. It was only two games but it feels like necrons are going to a beast in casual games and solid in tournys.
If it is a tournie that allows any LoW, then Necrons will have a tough time just based on they do not have access to regular Str. D blasts, where a revenant/phantom not sure which is which has multiple a turn.
I don't think it will, it is basically just a ward save from fantasy. It is not that hard to get around just got to use overwhelming firepower.
"It's not broken, you just need to have an absurd amount of firepower to get around it!"
I don't think I've seen a sillier response to something in quite some time.
Honestly, the Necron codex is very strong. There's no doubting it's a major reversal in power level trend of the late 6E and earlier 7E books. The army has mobility (not exactly 48" movement-in-one-turn mobility, but it's always in motion), it's certainly got firepower and punch, and insane resiliency.
The book bearing out to be as strong as Eldar would not surprise me in the least, particularly in places that have no restrictions on formations.
I should have probably worded that better,similar to last edition focus fire on units and they will go down easily, then move onto next. But, a better FNP is not going to make the Necrons top tier. They are lacking psykers, which with the advent of invisibility will really cripple them, along with multiple other psychic abilities. Necrons are resilient, but do not have super killing power. Wounding/glancing on a 6 on gauss is nice, but not being able to easily ignore saves is what is going to cause big issues.
To be fair, other armies without access to Psykers, or Invisibility, routinely do well in Tournaments, such as Tau. They do have a relatively cheap Artefact that gives them the benefit of Invisibility for a turn. It's hard to see where they lack super killing power, as aside from Tesla not working on Snapshots and a couple units going up in price a bit, they retain largely the same shooting capability (actually much better if you include Formations), but even better CC capabilities and much more resiliency to ensure that firepower sticks around for more turns.
oz of the north wrote: If it is a tournie that allows any LoW, then Necrons will have a tough time just based on they do not have access to regular Str. D blasts, where a revenant/phantom not sure which is which has multiple a turn.
Most events I believe exclude such from participating, I know you won't see any in the NOVA open for example, while the LVO has a heavily restricted list which I don't believe includes any D strength toting units, and while I think the Adepticon 40k championships will allow them, they're limited to those 615pts and under which limits D strength units considerably. That said, the Necrons do have access to the Forgeworld Gauss Pylon which, while lacking a Blast D strength weapon, does have 3 shots.
I don't think it will, it is basically just a ward save from fantasy. It is not that hard to get around just got to use overwhelming firepower.
"It's not broken, you just need to have an absurd amount of firepower to get around it!"
I don't think I've seen a sillier response to something in quite some time.
Honestly, the Necron codex is very strong. There's no doubting it's a major reversal in power level trend of the late 6E and earlier 7E books. The army has mobility (not exactly 48" movement-in-one-turn mobility, but it's always in motion), it's certainly got firepower and punch, and insane resiliency.
The book bearing out to be as strong as Eldar would not surprise me in the least, particularly in places that have no restrictions on formations.
I should have probably worded that better,similar to last edition focus fire on units and they will go down easily, then move onto next. But, a better FNP is not going to make the Necrons top tier. They are lacking psykers, which with the advent of invisibility will really cripple them, along with multiple other psychic abilities. Necrons are resilient, but do not have super killing power. Wounding/glancing on a 6 on gauss is nice, but not being able to easily ignore saves is what is going to cause big issues.
I mean, they have the same killing power they had before, plus the option of always charging into combat afterwards to finish off whatever it was that survived.
Davor wrote: Oh the Tau codex sucks. The Eldar codex sucks. Oh wait this was when people were reading the books and didn't try it. Now look. OMG Tau is OP. OMG Eldar is OP.
Now it's Necrons are OP by reading but yet no games played. Why not play over 10 games with the new Necrons before crying Chicken Little or saying how OP is everything?
Funny nobody, NOBODY was saying that when Tau and Eldar came out. Look what happens when a few games are played and proves everyone wrong.
I say take the ants out of the pants, relax, play a few games first and then see what happens.
Well, sir. Sorry to upset you.
I have played a game so far, and I played against Khorne and Tzzentch Daemons, using things that are considered sub-optimal in the old book (Monolith, Nightbringer, Imotehk). My warriors survived a charge from Bloodcrushers, that dealt 19 wounds. I lost 2 wounds, and proceeded to tie combat. And the Nightbringer beat the snot out of a buffed up Lord of Change in CC.
You are not upsetting me. What I was saying is reading something doesn't prove nothing. By playing multiple games then you can prove something. It's great you played a game. Now you are doing something that a lot of people are not doing. Playing the game with facts instead of Mathhammer.
I hate mathhamering. I'm just saying after my first list, even with suboptimal units from the previous codex, I tabled a good Daemon player. Now, obviously I have to play more games, but all the units I'd love to use seem to be a whole lot better now. I was already doing well with Necrons before. Now, I don't even know. >.>
Don't even know? I say be happy. It could have been worse. You could have had the Tyranid treatment or even worse the Dark Eldar treatment and loose the characters which was rumoured. Even worse you could be playing against Tau and Eldar with a worse codex. Now you are on equal footing with them.
As I said be happy. Hopefully this will be the new direction codices are going to go now. I am hoping Tyranids and Dark Angles will get the Necron treatment when it's their turn again.
Hope you're wrong. The most annoying player in our group plays crons. Either rage quits when losing or floats hardcore when winning. We've been talking about kinda avoiding him if their that good.
Pain4Pleasure wrote: Hope you're wrong. The most annoying player in our group plays crons. Either rage quits when losing or floats hardcore when winning. We've been talking about kinda avoiding him if their that good.
Sounds like you should be avoiding him not because Necrons are supposedly that good, but because he is an immature player. He will never change if you accept his behavior.
This new release has become a mess to my playgroup. I truly believe this codex is externally way above the rest, save Eldar due to the psychic phase.
Having RP become FNP is such a vast buff in my mind. Sure, many armies can give FNP to their units, but at a 4+ it becomes so hard to kill even their most basic units. Plus they have many units that can buff this, such as a stalker or technomancer. So now you have troops with a 4+ armor save, 4+ FNP, model regeneration, 5 BS with a weapon that can wound anything on a roll of 6, and with rapid fire.
What really makes this so crazy is with a 4+ FNP that simply means that all Necron's with this RP save half the wounds they would take in 5e. On top of all the other buffs (I do love flayed ones being good) this makes for an army that is insanely resilient.
I just don't find this fun at all to play against. I am all for Necron's being the resilient army, but dear god does this make them tough as nails. I am just going to start having a gunline of artillery constantly firing at their troops every game.
Davor wrote: Oh the Tau codex sucks. The Eldar codex sucks. Oh wait this was when people were reading the books and didn't try it. Now look. OMG Tau is OP. OMG Eldar is OP.
Now it's Necrons are OP by reading but yet no games played. Why not play over 10 games with the new Necrons before crying Chicken Little or saying how OP is everything?
Funny nobody, NOBODY was saying that when Tau and Eldar came out. Look what happens when a few games are played and proves everyone wrong.
I say take the ants out of the pants, relax, play a few games first and then see what happens.
That's some pretty intense history rewriting. I know for certain our group was floored within an hour of reading the books by tau and eldar power jump. I also know I had discussions online about how strong they were.
I don't know about you, but some of us are good enough at the game that we can read the rules, points, and stats and know the quality without play testing 100 times. Maybe it's just my long gaming background, or long time of playing 40k through several editions including designing several homebrew units and scenarios, but anything that feels off by more than like...5 points is glaringly obvious to me.
You wouldn't need to play test to know that terminators with str D storm bolters are OP, right?
On topic, I'm up to 4 wins as and 2 losses against, with only 1 ludicrously lucky maelstrom win against new necrons. The card gods handed me that game for reals, and I still almost got tabled and caught up to points wise. I should mention that my last win with them was an experiment to see if I could ROLL DICE to pick my army list, fill it out with options, and win with it. Even that game was pretty one sided.
And with that lucky win, I'm currently the only person in our group to win a game against 7crons, even though both our cron players are kinda newbieish. (I did at least help them make their decurion lists.)
The book is the most powerful 7th edition book period. When you add in decurion bonuses, it becomes over the top. We're thinking about banning using a decurion against other 7dexes just to give people a chance.
Vaktathi wrote: Most events I believe exclude such from participating, I know you won't see any in the NOVA open for example, while the LVO has a heavily restricted list which I don't believe includes any D strength toting units, and while I think the Adepticon 40k championships will allow them, they're limited to those 615pts and under which limits D strength units considerably. That said, the Necrons do have access to the Forgeworld Gauss Pylon which, while lacking a Blast D strength weapon, does have 3 shots.
LVO is allowing the Lynx, Scorpion, Cobra and Shadowsword actually.
niv-mizzet wrote: That's some pretty intense history rewriting. I know for certain our group was floored within an hour of reading the books by tau and eldar power jump. I also know I had discussions online about how strong they were.
Im pretty sure the "Codex sucking" was during the pre release, pre leaked pic sections before rules confirmations and when rumors where getting mixed in. i do remember a bit of that back then.
I think its a good idea to join the wait and sea tribe till we get some Tourny results (for tourny power levels)
In the casual realm it is pants on head op in the context of frustration.
I just don't find this fun at all to play against. I am all for Necron's being the resilient army, but dear god does this make them tough as nails. I am just going to start having a gunline of artillery constantly firing at their troops every game.
Agreed here. I get the theme of being the sturdiest dudes, but they already were. Then they went overboard buffing that aspect.
So now while my dudes used to worry about some of their s 10 shenanigans and their basic guns that can hurt anything, now we have that stuff AND we can't kill them. I used to cope by focusing single units down at a time to deny RP rolls. Now? I just cry.
So they are, I missed them (most are at the bottom of the list).
That said, most of those are relatively lightly armored (IIRC the Lynx is AV11 6HP, the Scorpion AV12 9HP) while the Shadowsword is far less mobile and has half the shots the Scorpion does IIRC.
Oh, I don't know about that. I don't bother with anything other than wish listing discussions before I've read the book. I can understand not needing to play test obvious imbalances, but I at least need to read them first.
krodarklorr wrote: So, going over the codex again and again, and talking with some friends of mine, I've realized that Necrons, while very well balanced internally, are crazy powerful compared to how they used to be. I've sat down and thought of all the issues I've had fighting against other armies, and no armies out there (save for an entire Imperial Knight army) really threatens me anymore. Necrons see to have an answer for everything, since all of their units are viable now. HQs aren't quite as killy, but more supportive, and arguable harder to kill. Troops are tough as nails. Elites are cheaper and everything has a viable use. Heavy Supports are worth it now. Fast Attack are still good, and even more became good. And the Decurion Detachment is ridiculous. Sure, I personally feel it gives the book it's own flavor, and is very fluffy in itself, but the benefits seem to be too good, when you think about it.
Necrons very well could be the next Eldar in terms of power level, though without a lot of cheese. I don't wanna become "that guy" that nobody wants to play because Necrons are too good.
Do you guys think the power level is in a good spot? Or is it too much to handle compared to other 7th edition codexes? And if it is too much, what can we expect to see from other 7th edition codexes when they start updating them. What are your guy's thoughts on this matter?
I also apologize ahead of time if there is a thread already about this and I missed it.
I really doubt it.
Let's go over things:
What got buffed? Things that were useless before are now decent to good.
And things that were 'overpowered' before got nerfed really hard.
No more CCB-spam, no Night Scythe-spam, no Annihilation Barge-spam and no 'Wraiths with D-Lord'-spam.
The old list now pays more for the NS, more for the mandatory troops that go in them, more for Barges, can no longer decently use the D-Lord with Wraiths and they pay more for the Wraiths.
Sure, Wraiths are better now.. But that is only their Toughness, you get a lot less attacks for the same amount of points.
The Decurion sounds really nice, but you are still paying a 479 price for it and you need an Auxiliary Formation with it.
This really limits you in your option and often forces you to take sub-optimal options.
So my thought is that the strength is really overrated at this point.
krodarklorr wrote: So, going over the codex again and again, and talking with some friends of mine, I've realized that Necrons, while very well balanced internally, are crazy powerful compared to how they used to be. I've sat down and thought of all the issues I've had fighting against other armies, and no armies out there (save for an entire Imperial Knight army) really threatens me anymore. Necrons see to have an answer for everything, since all of their units are viable now. HQs aren't quite as killy, but more supportive, and arguable harder to kill. Troops are tough as nails. Elites are cheaper and everything has a viable use. Heavy Supports are worth it now. Fast Attack are still good, and even more became good. And the Decurion Detachment is ridiculous. Sure, I personally feel it gives the book it's own flavor, and is very fluffy in itself, but the benefits seem to be too good, when you think about it.
Necrons very well could be the next Eldar in terms of power level, though without a lot of cheese. I don't wanna become "that guy" that nobody wants to play because Necrons are too good.
Do you guys think the power level is in a good spot? Or is it too much to handle compared to other 7th edition codexes? And if it is too much, what can we expect to see from other 7th edition codexes when they start updating them. What are your guy's thoughts on this matter?
I also apologize ahead of time if there is a thread already about this and I missed it.
I really doubt it.
Let's go over things:
What got buffed? Things that were useless before are now decent to good.
And things that were 'overpowered' before got nerfed really hard.
No more CCB-spam, no Night Scythe-spam, no Annihilation Barge-spam and no 'Wraiths with D-Lord'-spam.
The old list now pays more for the NS, more for the mandatory troops that go in them, more for Barges, can no longer decently use the D-Lord with Wraiths and they pay more for the Wraiths.
Sure, Wraiths are better now.. But that is only their Toughness, you get a lot less attacks for the same amount of points.
The Decurion sounds really nice, but you are still paying a 479 price for it and you need an Auxiliary Formation with it.
This really limits you in your option and often forces you to take sub-optimal options.
So my thought is that the strength is really overrated at this point.
I don't really see any unit in this book to be sub-optimal now. Almost everything is good imo.
Davor wrote: Oh the Tau codex sucks. The Eldar codex sucks. Oh wait this was when people were reading the books and didn't try it. Now look. OMG Tau is OP. OMG Eldar is OP.
Now it's Necrons are OP by reading but yet no games played. Why not play over 10 games with the new Necrons before crying Chicken Little or saying how OP is everything?
Funny nobody, NOBODY was saying that when Tau and Eldar came out. Look what happens when a few games are played and proves everyone wrong.
I say take the ants out of the pants, relax, play a few games first and then see what happens.
That's some pretty intense history rewriting. I know for certain our group was floored within an hour of reading the books by tau and eldar power jump. I also know I had discussions online about how strong they were.
I don't know about you, but some of us are good enough at the game that we can read the rules, points, and stats and know the quality without play testing 100 times. Maybe it's just my long gaming background, or long time of playing 40k through several editions including designing several homebrew units and scenarios, but anything that feels off by more than like...5 points is glaringly obvious to me.
Not rewriting history at all. Dakka, Bells of Lost Souls, Warseer, I clearly remember a lot of people complaining how boring and underpowered Tau and Eldar were when they were released. About 2 months later that all changed because people actually played them and they saw and tried what other people theoryhammered was saying was a very DA/CSM type codex.
Maybe your play group is really smart, but man Dakka had a lot of people crying thinking they had another DA/CSM type codex for Tau and Eldar.
Davor wrote: Oh the Tau codex sucks. The Eldar codex sucks. Oh wait this was when people were reading the books and didn't try it. Now look. OMG Tau is OP. OMG Eldar is OP.
Now it's Necrons are OP by reading but yet no games played. Why not play over 10 games with the new Necrons before crying Chicken Little or saying how OP is everything?
Funny nobody, NOBODY was saying that when Tau and Eldar came out. Look what happens when a few games are played and proves everyone wrong.
I say take the ants out of the pants, relax, play a few games first and then see what happens.
That's some pretty intense history rewriting. I know for certain our group was floored within an hour of reading the books by tau and eldar power jump. I also know I had discussions online about how strong they were.
I don't know about you, but some of us are good enough at the game that we can read the rules, points, and stats and know the quality without play testing 100 times. Maybe it's just my long gaming background, or long time of playing 40k through several editions including designing several homebrew units and scenarios, but anything that feels off by more than like...5 points is glaringly obvious to me.
Not rewriting history at all. Dakka, Bells of Lost Souls, Warseer, I clearly remember a lot of people complaining how boring and underpowered Tau and Eldar were when they were released. About 2 months later that all changed because people actually played them and they saw and tried what other people theoryhammered was saying was a very DA/CSM type codex.
Maybe your play group is really smart, but man Dakka had a lot of people crying thinking they had another DA/CSM type codex for Tau and Eldar.
I don't recall this at all, these books were widely predicted to be very powerful immediately.
An example of some people saying the new Tau codex was no good or Underwhelming.
So yes people were saying the Tau codex was no good before actually playing it.
There are always going to be THOSE people. They're usually the same ones that want a custom character with str D melee and a 2++ for 100 points.
I never said that NOBODY was wrong about tau, but YOU did say that "NOBODY" was right about them. You even capitalized NOBODY and all that. If you walk into a bar at night and ask what color the sky is, you're not gonna get the same answer all 10 times either.
Humorously enough, there's a post in one of those where a guy hypothesizes the "new things will be OP" theory, with tau and the upcoming eldar. He should've tried to sound more serious, because he accidentally hit a bullseye.
Automatically Appended Next Post: (It is kind of hilarious to rummage through those old posts and see people talking completely clueless. Like one of those time warp premise shows that says "ah this internet thing will never take off" or some junk like that.)
Davor wrote: Oh the Tau codex sucks. The Eldar codex sucks. Oh wait this was when people were reading the books and didn't try it. Now look. OMG Tau is OP. OMG Eldar is OP.
Now it's Necrons are OP by reading but yet no games played. Why not play over 10 games with the new Necrons before crying Chicken Little or saying how OP is everything?
Funny nobody, NOBODY was saying that when Tau and Eldar came out. Look what happens when a few games are played and proves everyone wrong.
I say take the ants out of the pants, relax, play a few games first and then see what happens.
That's some pretty intense history rewriting. I know for certain our group was floored within an hour of reading the books by tau and eldar power jump. I also know I had discussions online about how strong they were.
I don't know about you, but some of us are good enough at the game that we can read the rules, points, and stats and know the quality without play testing 100 times. Maybe it's just my long gaming background, or long time of playing 40k through several editions including designing several homebrew units and scenarios, but anything that feels off by more than like...5 points is glaringly obvious to me.
Not rewriting history at all. Dakka, Bells of Lost Souls, Warseer, I clearly remember a lot of people complaining how boring and underpowered Tau and Eldar were when they were released. About 2 months later that all changed because people actually played them and they saw and tried what other people theoryhammered was saying was a very DA/CSM type codex.
Maybe your play group is really smart, but man Dakka had a lot of people crying thinking they had another DA/CSM type codex for Tau and Eldar.
I don't recall this at all, these books were widely predicted to be very powerful immediately.
I absolutely remember folks online crying that Tau had been given a poor book due to nerfs to broadsides and what was perceived as a dead on arrival flyer. I'm not sure what initial thoughts were on the Riptide, but I do recall the Wraithknight being discussed online as possibly an overcosted, inefficient unit. Some things are obvious from the get-go, but to argue that the fractured 40k player base nails it every time is a stretch.
Davor wrote: Oh the Tau codex sucks. The Eldar codex sucks. Oh wait this was when people were reading the books and didn't try it. Now look. OMG Tau is OP. OMG Eldar is OP.
Now it's Necrons are OP by reading but yet no games played. Why not play over 10 games with the new Necrons before crying Chicken Little or saying how OP is everything?
Funny nobody, NOBODY was saying that when Tau and Eldar came out. Look what happens when a few games are played and proves everyone wrong.
I say take the ants out of the pants, relax, play a few games first and then see what happens.
That's some pretty intense history rewriting. I know for certain our group was floored within an hour of reading the books by tau and eldar power jump. I also know I had discussions online about how strong they were.
I don't know about you, but some of us are good enough at the game that we can read the rules, points, and stats and know the quality without play testing 100 times. Maybe it's just my long gaming background, or long time of playing 40k through several editions including designing several homebrew units and scenarios, but anything that feels off by more than like...5 points is glaringly obvious to me.
Not rewriting history at all. Dakka, Bells of Lost Souls, Warseer, I clearly remember a lot of people complaining how boring and underpowered Tau and Eldar were when they were released. About 2 months later that all changed because people actually played them and they saw and tried what other people theoryhammered was saying was a very DA/CSM type codex.
Maybe your play group is really smart, but man Dakka had a lot of people crying thinking they had another DA/CSM type codex for Tau and Eldar.
Dammit, I can't find the exact thread, but there was one made a while ago because this discussion comes up every time a new book comes out. Anyway, someone did a thread where they went through the main Daemons/Tau/Eldar discussion threads and counted every posters' analysis. Tau and Eldar were both overwhelmingly positive. The only real surprise Codex was Daemons, but that's because it took about a month to figure out Screamerstar.
Davor wrote: Oh the Tau codex sucks. The Eldar codex sucks. Oh wait this was when people were reading the books and didn't try it. Now look. OMG Tau is OP. OMG Eldar is OP.
Now it's Necrons are OP by reading but yet no games played. Why not play over 10 games with the new Necrons before crying Chicken Little or saying how OP is everything?
Funny nobody, NOBODY was saying that when Tau and Eldar came out. Look what happens when a few games are played and proves everyone wrong.
I say take the ants out of the pants, relax, play a few games first and then see what happens.
That's some pretty intense history rewriting. I know for certain our group was floored within an hour of reading the books by tau and eldar power jump. I also know I had discussions online about how strong they were.
I don't know about you, but some of us are good enough at the game that we can read the rules, points, and stats and know the quality without play testing 100 times. Maybe it's just my long gaming background, or long time of playing 40k through several editions including designing several homebrew units and scenarios, but anything that feels off by more than like...5 points is glaringly obvious to me.
Not rewriting history at all. Dakka, Bells of Lost Souls, Warseer, I clearly remember a lot of people complaining how boring and underpowered Tau and Eldar were when they were released. About 2 months later that all changed because people actually played them and they saw and tried what other people theoryhammered was saying was a very DA/CSM type codex.
Maybe your play group is really smart, but man Dakka had a lot of people crying thinking they had another DA/CSM type codex for Tau and Eldar.
I don't recall this at all, these books were widely predicted to be very powerful immediately.
I absolutely remember folks online crying that Tau had been given a poor book due to nerfs to broadsides and what was perceived as a dead on arrival flyer. I'm not sure what initial thoughts were on the Riptide, but I do recall the Wraithknight being discussed online as possibly an overcosted, inefficient unit. Some things are obvious from the get-go, but to argue that the fractured 40k player base nails it every time is a stretch.
Well, in fairness to those people, they were right about the flyers, and the changes to the Broadsides were nerfs if you look at the rail version. It just turned out that a few other units turned out to be quite impressive, and that they had an amazing synergy with Eldar in sixth.
An example of some people saying the new Tau codex was no good or Underwhelming.
So yes people were saying the Tau codex was no good before actually playing it.
There are always going to be THOSE people. They're usually the same ones that want a custom character with str D melee and a 2++ for 100 points.
I never said that NOBODY was wrong about tau, but YOU did say that "NOBODY" was right about them. You even capitalized NOBODY and all that. If you walk into a bar at night and ask what color the sky is, you're not gonna get the same answer all 10 times either.
Humorously enough, there's a post in one of those where a guy hypothesizes the "new things will be OP" theory, with tau and the upcoming eldar. He should've tried to sound more serious, because he accidentally hit a bullseye.
Automatically Appended Next Post: (It is kind of hilarious to rummage through those old posts and see people talking completely clueless. Like one of those time warp premise shows that says "ah this internet thing will never take off" or some junk like that.)
Yeah you are right. I see I made the mistake of saying Nobody. Should have said a lot of people. Then again back then it seemed it was like nobody .
An example of some people saying the new Tau codex was no good or Underwhelming.
So yes people were saying the Tau codex was no good before actually playing it.
There are always going to be THOSE people. They're usually the same ones that want a custom character with str D melee and a 2++ for 100 points.
I never said that NOBODY was wrong about tau, but YOU did say that "NOBODY" was right about them. You even capitalized NOBODY and all that. If you walk into a bar at night and ask what color the sky is, you're not gonna get the same answer all 10 times either.
Humorously enough, there's a post in one of those where a guy hypothesizes the "new things will be OP" theory, with tau and the upcoming eldar. He should've tried to sound more serious, because he accidentally hit a bullseye.
Automatically Appended Next Post: (It is kind of hilarious to rummage through those old posts and see people talking completely clueless. Like one of those time warp premise shows that says "ah this internet thing will never take off" or some junk like that.)
Yeah you are right. I see I made the mistake of saying Nobody. Should have said a lot of people. Then again back then it seemed it was like nobody .
regardless if your argument was they were thought to be bad books that turned out to be OP at the time they came out, shouldn't we be more worried that there are a fair amount of people (including Necron players) who are already looking at this book and saying it could very well be OP? lol
The battle results of people who have played are seeming to back it up as well, including many Necron players now openly saying the Decurion formations everliving bonus is OP after playing games with it.
Sometimes it takes a while to notice something's power. Sometimes this is weird builds or combos that aren't immediately evident (screamer star, even the siren bomb took a bit to get going back in the day. Iron warriors were a lot easier to see, though weaker). Sometimes it involves clunky mechanics that are not clearly understood (That daemon summoning thing, it seems needlessly complicated).
Usually though, it seems most people aren't wrong the opposite way. By that I mean, although many gamers are surprised when something is overpowered but was considered weak, its much rarer to see us blindsided by something considered op turning out weak.
That's just my experience. I haven't been keeping track of a trend or anything similar, just my personal instinct on the subject in the various games I play
(DnD, WoD, WMH, 40k, Fantasy, Necromunda, Gorka, Morden)
Indeed, history tells that we should wait two months to rate the new Necrons.
But I think everybody can see the value of the book and the units and formations in it.
I'm going to play Necrons in an apoc battle today. Happy hunting.
krodarklorr wrote: I don't wanna become "that guy" that nobody wants to play because Necrons are too good.
Too late.
Pretty sure decursion is gona get banned from tournaments that don't allow stuff with S: D blasts.
Wait, what has S: D blast in the Necron Codex?
edit: god damn Orkmoticon
You got me wrong.
I was saying that it's gona be quite hard to kill even regular necrons for a common tac army (not mellee-heavy) without S: D blasts and stomps.
krodarklorr wrote: I don't really see any unit in this book to be sub-optimal now. Almost everything is good imo.
That is not what I said, everything in the book is good.
But the best performing armies on tournaments don't perform well because everything in the book is good, they win those tournaments because one unit is overpowered, can be spammed and they have great combo's.
The most 'overpowered' thing we seem to have are Wraiths with RP4+, which requires over 800 points for 6 Wraiths with all the 'tax' you need to take.
If we could take RP-Wraiths without all the Decurion stuff than we'd have a chance at being overpowered in competitive play.
At the moment it just seems like we have a strong army, but nothing that screams 'overpowered!'.
Wraiths can however get RP 5+ for *wayyyy* cheaper, and that 800pts is going to more than just the Wraiths, the rest of those points aren't dead weight.
Either way, even naked Wraiths are still absurdly overcapable and undercosted. The RP buffs are just gravy.
I thought Necrons were good before but didn't see as many players using them at tourney (though we actually have several who play them to one extent or another here locally so I am very familiar with their power level).
The new codex changed them a lot. Some of it makes way more sense in how it works now. Internal balance as was said already seems quite good.
My one concern with the Necrons is that I recall two things historically. First was my Eldar Warlock army in 3rd/4th Edition. 4+ re-rollable saves on large units made those units GREAT and scary. The other thing i remember is the 3+/4+ FnP Blood Angels. That was equally no fun.
I dont QUITE think the Necrons approach that power level because in both cases there were a couple other contributing factors, but they sure skirt the edge. I forsee good Generals being able to do really well with this force. I also think its going to be a really fun challenge to face and should elevate what was and seemingly always has been a little behind the curve codex into a much more fair chance of winning without the expedient of Croissants.
I dont QUITE think the Necrons approach that power level because in both cases there were a couple other contributing factors, but they sure skirt the edge. I forsee good Generals being able to do really well with this force. I also think its going to be a really fun challenge to face and should elevate what was and seemingly always has been a little behind the curve codex into a much more fair chance of winning without the expedient of Croissants.
I second this. Necron were technically powerful before because of cheese (MSS, Scythe Spam, Wraith spam) but thats sadly because most of their old codex wasn't even worth fielding in a fun game. Now, they've nerfed the cheese, yet giving players a slew of new options, which imo are all excellent choices, to do well with.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Crazyterran wrote: I think, barring wraiths and mephrit being made separate, they are pretty balanced.
But since wraiths are a thing and people can have silly barge lords still...
Silly barge lords die when the vehicle dies now, so bye bye. Also, no 2+/3++ anymore. Plus, they're not as killy, yet more of a support HQ. So, still good, but people won't be bring 2+ of them.
4+ RP is wrong, utterly wrong.
The Decurion detachment is practically a no-brainer: why shouldn't I use it, when I was already going to pick the units listed it? Free 4+ RP not just to the Reclamation Legion models, but ALL FORMATIONS is a terrible design choice since it provides no real counter to it, and being unable to counter it at all in a tactical game provides no real enjoyment but pure tears of frustation
I must say, the new RP rules are more streamlined, but horrible design.
There is literally NO counter to that. at all. not a thing you could do. and it makes everything so much harder to kill.
The decurion just makes it worse, it makes the RP to be as if the entire codex has double the wounds, and pesudo eternal warrior.
and the capoptek formation piles on the final point of "what were they thinking" with giving units who were already absurdly tough for the cost (wraiths and spiders) acsess to the biggest shield USR in the game, for practically free.
Somewhere along the lines a huge ball was dropped, and nobody noticed.
(And for the dude that said tau and eldar were called underpowered at first-donno about eldar, but tau was precived as good from the first moment. the thing we complained about is the pisspoor internal balance and the fact some choices are clearly OP such as the riptide's IA or the broadside HYMP, while others were pointless, like rail broadsides, vespids and stealth suits)
They are incredibly durable, but where is their punch? Wraiths? Weight of Gauss fire? Destroyers? Maybe I'm missing something but their damage output doesn't seem to be massive.
Their Tesla got weaker, their main source of mobility (Scythes) got more expensive, A lot of cool units that you never saw can now be useful (Flayed Ones, those elite infantry guys etc.) which is cool. Wraiths did get pretty silly and they're really the only thing I worry about facing, as my army really doesn't have many answers to kill them.
I'm looking forward to playing against them and to see what sort of combinations will become popular. I'm really inspired to build my own Dark Mechanicum count-as-Necrons force too, but I'll have to see how much time and money I have available in the future.
GrafWattenburg wrote: They are incredibly durable, but where is their punch? Wraiths? Weight of Gauss fire? Destroyers? Maybe I'm missing something but their damage output doesn't seem to be massive.
Their Tesla got weaker, their main source of mobility (Scythes) got more expensive, A lot of cool units that you never saw can now be useful (Flayed Ones, those elite infantry guys etc.) which is cool. Wraiths did get pretty silly and they're really the only thing I worry about facing, as my army really doesn't have many answers to kill them.
I'm looking forward to playing against them and to see what sort of combinations will become popular. I'm really inspired to build my own Dark Mechanicum count-as-Necrons force too, but I'll have to see how much time and money I have available in the future.
Their CC punch got massively increased, Gauss platforms in general are either cheaper, more resilient, or both, and Tesla remains just as effective aside from when Snapshooting, and their Tesla heavy units still aren't exactly outrageously expensive.
Between Wraiths, JSJ Destroyers, unbelievably resilient Immortals & Warriors, Flayed Ones putting out 5 "Shred" attacks each on a charge, Ghost Arks putting out double the number of shots at 12-24" they used to (up to 20 shots at two different targets at 24" now), Nightscythes still being amongst the cheapest and most effective flyers in the game, synergistic abilities like Stalkers, and of course Formations, they put still put out phenomenal damage.
GrafWattenburg wrote: They are incredibly durable, but where is their punch? Wraiths? Weight of Gauss fire? Destroyers? Maybe I'm missing something but their damage output doesn't seem to be massive.
Their Tesla got weaker, their main source of mobility (Scythes) got more expensive, A lot of cool units that you never saw can now be useful (Flayed Ones, those elite infantry guys etc.) which is cool. Wraiths did get pretty silly and they're really the only thing I worry about facing, as my army really doesn't have many answers to kill them.
I'm looking forward to playing against them and to see what sort of combinations will become popular. I'm really inspired to build my own Dark Mechanicum count-as-Necrons force too, but I'll have to see how much time and money I have available in the future.
Weight of fire has always been their thing, its just now Gauss is the autotake instead of tesla because the snapshot shenanigans got corrected. Hurting everything and anything on 6s is awesome; it means they can almost always do something which is great for the player because it doesn't make it feel like you have dead-weight in your army. I expect to see foot-slogging massed warriors at my FLGS soon, it will be a fun fight but I do expect to lose in the end.
Jancoran wrote: D Weapons and instant Death Weapons weaken it. So there's that. Grotesques would be a decent answer.
Something everyone has, right?
Oh, and you can still make it on a 4+ with a Single 65 pts Crypter even in case of ID weapons, so not a good answer
So snipe the dude. Got snipers? if you think that every necron army will be built invincibly, i have some excellent ocean front property I can sell you in South Dakota and the weather is STUNNING this time of year.
Let's not overblow this. Lets think through it. So the dude has a Cryptek eh? How do you remove it?
So the guy has a Resurrection orb eh? How can we remove it...
So the Necron dude has Wraiths eh? how do you mire it?
I think asking those questions is probably worthwhile eh? Maybe moreso than spewing what the necrons CAAAAAN do, how about we talk about what we should do in response?
One response is Grotesques and Dark Eldar players will have them. Unless they don't want them. But that's a choice, isn't it?
So there's these really annoying characters eh? How about 120 Precision hots from the IG blob? or perhaps the precision shots from Tau Stealthsuits and/or Crisis teams with Burst Cannons? 24 STR 5 precision shots per unit might give you some help and its dirt cheap to give them precision shot. Costs IG nothing. Land one of those lascannons on him and let him make his save. Maybe he makes it. Maybe he gives the wound away. Who knows but its one MORE way to think about it.
Im just kinda tired of the doom and gloom. I play a ton of armies and I could get all upset about it or I can figure it out.
GrafWattenburg wrote: They are incredibly durable, but where is their punch? Wraiths? Weight of Gauss fire? Destroyers? Maybe I'm missing something but their damage output doesn't seem to be massive.
Their Tesla got weaker, their main source of mobility (Scythes) got more expensive, A lot of cool units that you never saw can now be useful (Flayed Ones, those elite infantry guys etc.) which is cool. Wraiths did get pretty silly and they're really the only thing I worry about facing, as my army really doesn't have many answers to kill them.
I'm looking forward to playing against them and to see what sort of combinations will become popular. I'm really inspired to build my own Dark Mechanicum count-as-Necrons force too, but I'll have to see how much time and money I have available in the future.
I mean, weight of fire sure, but most of our units are viable now, and a lot of them have synergy. We have plenty of punch now, just as much as we did, and it takes you even longer to kill us, so we're shooting at you longer.
Jancoran wrote: D Weapons and instant Death Weapons weaken it. So there's that. Grotesques would be a decent answer.
Something everyone has, right?
Oh, and you can still make it on a 4+ with a Single 65 pts Crypter even in case of ID weapons, so not a good answer
So snipe the dude. Got snipers? if you think that every necron army will be built invincibly, i have some excellent oceanfront property I can sell you South Dakota and the weathr is STUNNING tis time of year.
This is a kind of absurd response. "sniping" anything is exceedingly luck based and usually dependent on typically notably sub-optimal units, Wyverns and Thunderfire cannons being the primary exceptions through the abuse of Barrage wound-allocation. And that's not even taking "Look out sir!" into account.
Not feasible short of a Vindicare Assassin.
Either that or trying to kill him through a challenge in combat, but he can probably decline without much hazard or have something with a Warscythe step up.
People bitch about wraiths, but seriously people are going to lose their gak over Flayed Ones, once everyone get's on board with the 2 DLord Deepstriking Flayed ones with Wraiths lists.
adamsouza wrote: The answer to 4+RP is volume of fire, plain and simple.
Does MSU suck at that ? Yes.
Does GW want you to buy and field more models ? Yes.
Insane volumes of fire for a 4++ re-rolling ones or possible total re-rolls and multi wound wound models getting the save on each wound.
Please stop kidding yourself, the other 7th books would struggle hard to put out the kind of firepower needed to drowned it in fire And let me be clear the other 7th books ARE the standard, not tau, not eldar, not any pre 7th book. Why? Because its a 7th book and the 7th books were written to be somewhat balanced against each other.
The hope shouldve been that GW had finally seen the light and that would continue not that they would pull a classic GW and go overboard with no real answer as to why.
adamsouza wrote: The answer to 4+RP is volume of fire, plain and simple.
Does MSU suck at that ? Yes.
Does GW want you to buy and field more models ? Yes.
Insane volumes of fire for a 4++ re-rolling ones or possible total re-rolls and multi wound wound models getting the save on each wound.
Please stop kidding yourself, the other 7th books would struggle hard to put out the kind of firepower needed to drowned it in fire And let me be clear the other 7th books ARE the standard, not tau, not eldar, not any pre 7th book. Why? Because its a 7th book and the 7th books were written to be somewhat balanced against each other.
The hope shouldve been that GW had finally seen the light and that would continue not that they would pull a classic GW and go overboard with no real answer as to why.
Wait, how are they getting re-rolling ones??
Please tell me that's a formation, and I didn't skip over some wargear...
adamsouza wrote: The answer to 4+RP is volume of fire, plain and simple.
Does MSU suck at that ? Yes.
Does GW want you to buy and field more models ? Yes.
Insane volumes of fire for a 4++ re-rolling ones or possible total re-rolls and multi wound wound models getting the save on each wound.
Please stop kidding yourself, the other 7th books would struggle hard to put out the kind of firepower needed to drowned it in fire .
I've math hammered it all out in the other tactics thread. 4+ with 4+RP is better than a 3+ save and worse than a 2+ save (kinda like any MEQ with FNP).
All those foot sloggin Astra Militarum lists are looking pretty good right now.
All those foot sloggin Astra Militarum lists are looking pretty good right now.
O_o how so?
If we're referring to massed lasgun fire, a full 300pt blob (before any upgrades or character inclusions) of 50 dudes with FRFSRF (not including cost of officer unit or chance of failing Ld test) getting off 150 shots at 12" or less is killing a grand total of six 13pt Necron Warriors with 4+ RP.
For a 13pt model, that's a pretty insane amount of resiliency.
One will also notice Imperial Guard aren't exactly matching top-notch against anything else right now either.
adamsouza wrote: The answer to 4+RP is volume of fire, plain and simple.
Does MSU suck at that ? Yes.
Does GW want you to buy and field more models ? Yes.
Insane volumes of fire for a 4++ re-rolling ones or possible total re-rolls and multi wound wound models getting the save on each wound.
Please stop kidding yourself, the other 7th books would struggle hard to put out the kind of firepower needed to drowned it in fire .
I've math hammered it all out in the other tactics thread. 4+ with 4+RP is better than a 3+ save and worse than a 2+ save (kinda like any MEQ with FNP).
All those foot sloggin Astra Militarum lists are looking pretty good right now.
Leaving out that fact your math hammer appears to fail to account for re-rolling 1s or total re-rolls or anything with better than a 4+ save (immortals, wraiths etc)
Thats 1 codex, that btw most necron players will likely have a CC that cn deep strike and pop an invisibilty like power and then proceed to destroy any gun lines. So no.... They dont look good.
adamsouza wrote: The answer to 4+RP is volume of fire, plain and simple.
Does MSU suck at that ? Yes.
Does GW want you to buy and field more models ? Yes.
Insane volumes of fire for a 4++ re-rolling ones or possible total re-rolls and multi wound wound models getting the save on each wound.
Please stop kidding yourself, the other 7th books would struggle hard to put out the kind of firepower needed to drowned it in fire And let me be clear the other 7th books ARE the standard, not tau, not eldar, not any pre 7th book. Why? Because its a 7th book and the 7th books were written to be somewhat balanced against each other.
The hope shouldve been that GW had finally seen the light and that would continue not that they would pull a classic GW and go overboard with no real answer as to why.
Wait, how are they getting re-rolling ones??
Please tell me that's a formation, and I didn't skip over some wargear...
And also the reclamation legion of the decurion detachment.
EDIT: SP
Beat me to it. lol
Yeah, the standard formation of their personal "force org" equivalent gives a 12" bubble of rerolling ones from your warlord.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, a random fact I happened upon a little while ago, Spyders and their spawning ability, can now be used locked or unlocked in combat, and at any time during the movement phase. Also, if they roll a 1 and take an unsaved wound, you're allowed a RP roll if you have it from the formation. =P
Jancoran wrote: D Weapons and instant Death Weapons weaken it. So there's that. Grotesques would be a decent answer.
Something everyone has, right?
Oh, and you can still make it on a 4+ with a Single 65 pts Crypter even in case of ID weapons, so not a good answer
So snipe the dude. Got snipers? if you think that every necron army will be built invincibly, i have some excellent oceanfront property I can sell you South Dakota and the weathr is STUNNING tis time of year.
This is a kind of absurd response. "sniping" anything is exceedingly luck based and usually dependent on typically notably sub-optimal units, Wyverns and Thunderfire cannons being the primary exceptions through the abuse of Barrage wound-allocation. And that's not even taking "Look out sir!" into account.
Not feasible short of a Vindicare Assassin.
Either that or trying to kill him through a challenge in combat, but he can probably decline without much hazard or have something with a Warscythe step up.
Well here's your alternative: Swoon or change what you're doing I guess. A Vindicare works. Get one.
I've named no less than three different forces that can employ means to get at characters that are problematic and you've named a dataslate anyone can use. ANYONE. I can name more. Even if you CANT snipe them, you may kill them anyways.
Don't lose hope so early in the game. I doubt ANYONE has enough games in againt them to have claimed to have adjusted to it. So I'll wait until people have played more before going all crazy about it.
Well here's your alternative: Swoon or change what you're doing I guess. A Vindicare works. Get one.
That's a 150pt model to deal with a 65pt character who's going to take an average of 3-4 turns to get the job done. Additionally, it has no fluff place being in many armies (which is important to some people, this game wouldn't exist without it). If that's the solution to the problem, then there's a game design issue on two separate levels.
I've named no less than three different forces that can employ means to get at characters that are problematic and you've named a dataslate anyone can use. ANYONE. I can name more. Even if you CANT snipe them, you may kill them anyways.
Yes, there have been some things put forward. Most of which aren't really as effective as they'd seem to otherwise be.
IG blob? Well, for something like you're talking about (not sure how to get 120 shots without using FRFSRF instead) we're talking about a 300pt blob minimum before characters or upgrade weapons, Lets assume 120 shots though anyway even though I think that's not possible.
We get 20 that get Precision Shots and can be allocated to the Cryptek. He can still Look Out Sir these, so 3.33 stick, 1.11 wound, 0.55 fail the armor save, and 0.277 shots make it through RP. So, about the time you made it through 20 Warriors through raw volume of firepower with Lasguns, you'd stick enough Precision Shots on to kill their Cryptek.
Don't lose hope so early in the game. I doubt ANYONE has enough games in againt them to have claimed to have adjusted to it. So I'll wait until people have played more before going all crazy about it.
I'm pointing out that the solutions being offered either aren't as effective as they may immediately seem, or have other caveats that are barriers to use.
They are good! My mono fluffy 2k Khorne list got humiliated by 20 flayed ones, 5 tomb blades and a barge lord. The rest of his army played little part in the game. Those with low attack heavy hitters are crippled by that 4+ RP rerole 1’s, because it’s a cheap save that can’t be bypassed.
You can build an army to get a +4 RP with a rerole even if you’re getting ID’ed. so a five man squad of warriors can survive against a bloodthirster.
Well here's your alternative: Swoon or change what you're doing I guess. A Vindicare works. Get one.
That's a 150pt model to deal with a 65pt character who's going to take an average of 3-4 turns to get the job done. Additionally, it has no fluff place being in many armies (which is important to some people, this game wouldn't exist without it). If that's the solution to the problem, then there's a game design issue on two separate levels.
I've named no less than three different forces that can employ means to get at characters that are problematic and you've named a dataslate anyone can use. ANYONE. I can name more. Even if you CANT snipe them, you may kill them anyways.
Yes, there have been some things put forward. Most of which aren't really as effective as they'd seem to otherwise be.
IG blob? Well, for something like you're talking about (not sure how to get 120 shots without using FRFSRF instead) we're talking about a 300pt blob minimum before characters or upgrade weapons, Lets assume 120 shots though anyway even though I think that's not possible.
We get 20 that get Precision Shots and can be allocated to the Cryptek. He can still Look Out Sir these, so 3.33 stick, 1.11 wound, 0.55 fail the armor save, and 0.277 shots make it through RP. So, about the time you made it through 20 Warriors through raw volume of firepower with Lasguns, you'd stick enough Precision Shots on to kill their Cryptek.
Don't lose hope so early in the game. I doubt ANYONE has enough games in againt them to have claimed to have adjusted to it. So I'll wait until people have played more before going all crazy about it.
I'm pointing out that the solutions being offered either aren't as effective as they may immediately seem, or have other caveats that are barriers to use.
120 shots in rtwo rounds si entirely possible. You're closing your mind off ot the possibilities. You keep saying "yeah but" instead of "Yeah, correct". Why?
120 shots in two rounds is TECHINCALLY possible, but not PRACTICALLY possible.
To shoot this much you'll need 30 guys in RF range, and the wraiths to somehow fail to charge at them. given how absurdly faster wraiths are, even a single turn of RF is doubtful.
It's a good Codex and the only slightly overpowered unit I see are the Wraiths. I disagree about the new Codex being more powerful than the old one, by a far margin. On a general level units got buffs across the board, but they nerfed the overpowered builds ( albeit allowing a new one, but I'm fairly certain Wraith spam will start to get countered quite quickly as the meta develops. )
I just played against the new Necrons in a tournament but it doesn't really tell anyone anything as he wasn't playing a cheesy list even by a long shot.
Well here's your alternative: Swoon or change what you're doing I guess. A Vindicare works. Get one.
That's a 150pt model to deal with a 65pt character who's going to take an average of 3-4 turns to get the job done. Additionally, it has no fluff place being in many armies (which is important to some people, this game wouldn't exist without it). If that's the solution to the problem, then there's a game design issue on two separate levels.
I've named no less than three different forces that can employ means to get at characters that are problematic and you've named a dataslate anyone can use. ANYONE. I can name more. Even if you CANT snipe them, you may kill them anyways.
Yes, there have been some things put forward. Most of which aren't really as effective as they'd seem to otherwise be.
IG blob? Well, for something like you're talking about (not sure how to get 120 shots without using FRFSRF instead) we're talking about a 300pt blob minimum before characters or upgrade weapons, Lets assume 120 shots though anyway even though I think that's not possible.
We get 20 that get Precision Shots and can be allocated to the Cryptek. He can still Look Out Sir these, so 3.33 stick, 1.11 wound, 0.55 fail the armor save, and 0.277 shots make it through RP. So, about the time you made it through 20 Warriors through raw volume of firepower with Lasguns, you'd stick enough Precision Shots on to kill their Cryptek.
Don't lose hope so early in the game. I doubt ANYONE has enough games in againt them to have claimed to have adjusted to it. So I'll wait until people have played more before going all crazy about it.
I'm pointing out that the solutions being offered either aren't as effective as they may immediately seem, or have other caveats that are barriers to use.
120 shots in rtwo rounds si entirely possible. You're closing your mind off ot the possibilities. You keep saying "yeah but" instead of "Yeah, correct". Why?
I guess its just a difference in how we think.
If we're going with two rounds, sure, but again, as shown, it's not an effective method of doing what you described, given the weak S, the ability to Look Out Sir the Precision Shots, and the 4+sv on top of 4+ RP. So yeah, in that sense you can do it, but again "yeah but", it's not an effective method at all of picking out the character. Again, primarily due to the ability to "look out sir" the wounds, you'll kill the rest of the unit through brute force by the time enough wounds stick on the character to matter, making the tactic rather pointless.
The Leman Russ Eradicator works wonders against the Warrior blob. So did the double Executioner Pask squadron, as well as hurting wraiths. Although TBH, I think screening conscripts blobs are more necessary now, than they ever.
PS. The Manticore was also a good performer against Wraiths.
RunicFIN wrote: It's a good Codex and the only slightly overpowered unit I see are the Wraiths. I disagree about the new Codex being more powerful than the old one, by a far margin. On a general level units got buffs across the board, but they nerfed the overpowered builds ( albeit allowing a new one, but I'm fairly certain Wraith spam will start to get countered quite quickly as the meta develops.)
I don't think there is a counter against Wraith-spam.
But I also think that Wraith-spam isn't enough to make an overpowered list, they would need overpowered backup to really dominate tournaments and I just don't see that back-up in the Codex.
There is a lot of strong back-up, but no longer the 100-point NS's and 90-point AB's that the old Wraith-spam could get.
And for their RP4+ they need quite a big amount of tax. These tax-units are good, but not something that would control the meta.
PS. 4 Flyers and 3 AB's alone is increased by 290 points compared to the old Codex.
BoomWolf wrote: 120 shots in two rounds is TECHINCALLY possible, but not PRACTICALLY possible.
To shoot this much you'll need 30 guys in RF range, and the wraiths to somehow fail to charge at them. given how absurdly faster wraiths are, even a single turn of RF is doubtful.
It is entirely possible and probable. Round 1 you fire 50. Round two you are firing at rapid fire range if they are anywhere near you enough to worry about. So you move and shoot move and shoot. If the enemy is still there...do it again. and with powers like Forewarning over my blob, Im not going anywhere.
KurtAngle2 wrote: 4+ RP is wrong, utterly wrong.
The Decurion detachment is practically a no-brainer: why shouldn't I use it, when I was already going to pick the units listed it? Free 4+ RP not just to the Reclamation Legion models, but ALL FORMATIONS is a terrible design choice since it provides no real counter to it, and being unable to counter it at all in a tactical game provides no real enjoyment but pure tears of frustation
Why should I use it in objective based games?
There are objective secured units.
KurtAngle2 wrote: 4+ RP is wrong, utterly wrong.
The Decurion detachment is practically a no-brainer: why shouldn't I use it, when I was already going to pick the units listed it? Free 4+ RP not just to the Reclamation Legion models, but ALL FORMATIONS is a terrible design choice since it provides no real counter to it, and being unable to counter it at all in a tactical game provides no real enjoyment but pure tears of frustation
Why should I use it in objective based games?
There are objective secured units.
This is a huge downside to Necrons, which can be exploited.
BoomWolf wrote: 120 shots in two rounds is TECHINCALLY possible, but not PRACTICALLY possible.
To shoot this much you'll need 30 guys in RF range, and the wraiths to somehow fail to charge at them. given how absurdly faster wraiths are, even a single turn of RF is doubtful.
It is entirely possible and probable. Round 1 you fire 50. Round two you are firing at rapid fire range if they are anywhere near you enough to worry about. So you move and shoot move and shoot. If the enemy is still there...do it again. and with powers like Forewarning over my blob, Im not going anywhere.
50 shots, 25 hits, 4 wounds, 1.33 wound goes through. You can give them a 4+ RP if you stack some buffs, so that is less then 1 wound on average.
You need heavier weapons then lasguns to bring down wraiths sadly. That's a horrible strategy.
Obviously plasma guns do a lot better, but crap guns got thrown out the window with T5. Not to mention the disgusting Flayed Ones wiping blobs out in a turn or 2.
Jancoran wrote: I wasnt responding to the wraith issue. i was responding tothe sniping issue of characters,.
Ah.
Then that doesn't work for the reasons mentioned earlier in the thread. Apologize, I thought you had dropped it after mentioning the sniper.
On topic;
Can any unit in the game out melee wraiths and flayed ones? I'm looking at my TWC and it looks very depressing. I thought Str 10 might swing the lead in my favor, but as mentioned in the Da+Ba vs Wraiths thread, the I1 striking is just awful.
What about
5x2 plague marines with plasma
So,
4 plasma guns, 8 shots, ~6 hits, 5 wounds, 2 go through?
8 bolters, 16 shots, 12 hits, 4 wounds, 1.33 go through.
With RP it becomes sad...
In melee, 30 attacks, 15 hits, 7.5 wounds, 2.5 go through.
Without RP it's not terrible, though hardly point effective. I assume I charge for lol reasons.
Maybe I could deep strike and combi flamer with termies?
I might just launch a vindicator shell on them and try to wrap the vindicator with a unit that they can wipe out in combat. Two rounds of firing and I might achieve something.
krodarklorr wrote: Wraiths aren't that hard to kill. And you aren't striking at Init 1 against them anymore.
T5 W2 3++ on a 12" move unit that can Fleet and potentially benefit from RP and even 4+ RP?
That's pretty insanely hard to kill for a 40pt model, especially to do so before they get where they want to go.
The new Whip Coils are also much better against most units, the difference between the enemy being I1 and you being I5 is often irrelevant, the result is usually the same, especially when that Init 1 only applied to models in direct base contact, and they're cheaper than they were before either way.
krodarklorr wrote: Wraiths aren't that hard to kill. And you aren't striking at Init 1 against them anymore.
They are harder to kill than in the previous incarnation of the codex.
I'd use them to clear objectives and units occupying objectives are usually I4 or less.
There are tons of options that can beat Wraiths in melee. Personally I did well with Be'lakor and Flesh Hounds who had a Grimoire + Hatred Locus Herald with them.
The dogs did most of the work on the charge really, and they only cost a fraction of the Wraiths.
RunicFIN wrote: There are tons of options that can beat Wraiths in melee. Personally I did well with Be'lakor and Flesh Hounds who had a Grimoire + Hatred Locus Herald with them.
The dogs did most of the work on the charge really, and they only cost a fraction of the Wraiths.
And how much is that combined unit together? Far more than any Wraight unit would have costed.
The Flesh Hounds can put a lot of hurt on the Wraiths potentially, no doubt, but they're also a lot easier to cut down before combat, require more support, and if the Wraiths have Whipcoils, the Hounds are striking last.
RunicFIN wrote: There are tons of options that can beat Wraiths in melee. Personally I did well with Be'lakor and Flesh Hounds who had a Grimoire + Hatred Locus Herald with them.
The dogs did most of the work on the charge really, and they only cost a fraction of the Wraiths.
And how much is that combined unit together? Far more than any Wraight unit would have costed.
The Flesh Hounds can put a lot of hurt on the Wraiths potentially, no doubt, but they're also a lot easier to cut down before combat, require more support, and if the Wraiths have Whipcoils, the Hounds are striking last.
Which is why I said the Flesh Hounds did most of the work, regarding the cost of the combatants. The original question was if there are things that can beat Wraiths in combat, and I answered that.
Seems like you somehow -want- the Wraiths to beat pretty much anything. Luckily in reality this isn't the case, for they can be beaten with a ton of different units.
In any case, is anyone able to calculate say, 2 full units of Wraiths with Whip Coils going against the same point cost worth of Flesh Hounds with Grimoire, Hatred Locus and the Herald included in the points cost? Would be interesting. If the Wraiths cost so much the Flesh Hound unit reaches it's maximum amount of models, then add a separate unit without the Grimoire into the mix to make the point costs even.
I don't see why it matters that a unit needs more support to beat the Wraiths on their own. It certainly doesn't on the tabletop - support or no, the Wraiths end up dead.
RunicFIN wrote: There are tons of options that can beat Wraiths in melee. Personally I did well with Be'lakor and Flesh Hounds who had a Grimoire + Hatred Locus Herald with them.
The dogs did most of the work on the charge really, and they only cost a fraction of the Wraiths.
And how much is that combined unit together? Far more than any Wraight unit would have costed.
The Flesh Hounds can put a lot of hurt on the Wraiths potentially, no doubt, but they're also a lot easier to cut down before combat, require more support, and if the Wraiths have Whipcoils, the Hounds are striking last.
Which is why I said the Flesh Hounds did most of the work, regarding the cost of the combatants. The original question was if there are things that can beat Wraiths in combat, and I answered that.
Seems like you somehow -want- the Wraiths to beat pretty much anything. Luckily in reality this isn't the case, for they can be beaten with a ton of different units.
In any case, is anyone able to calculate say, 2 full units of Wraiths with Whip Coils going against the same point cost worth of Flesh Hounds with Grimoire, Hatred Locus and the Herald included in the points cost? Would be interesting. If the Wraiths cost so much the Flesh Hound unit reaches it's maximum amount of models, then add a separate unit without the Grimoire into the mix to make the point costs even.
I don't see why it matters that a unit needs more support to beat the Wraiths on their own. It certainly doesn't on the tabletop - support or no, the Wraiths end up dead.
I don't "want" the Wraiths to beat pretty much everything, just pointing out the large mismatch with the example you gave and the contingencies involved.
Now, two full units of Wraiths with whip coils is going to be worth 26 hounds with herald with grimoire and hatred locus.
Now, if we're assuming the Herald is accompanying the Flesh Hounds, that means the Flesh Hounds mobility is significantly impaired, moving and charging as Infantry instead of Beasts.
This presents an issue as it would indicate that the Wraiths would have the choice of when, how, and where to engage. The smaller unit will not be similarly impaired, but will almost certainly be wiped out if it attempts to charge first on its own. So we'll assume the Wraiths get the charge, and as such engage just the large Grimoire unit. Now, we'll average the chance of Grimoire working vs failing in our comparison here, and equate that 3++ 2/3rds of the time and 6++ 1/3rd of the time to a 4++ on average here. we get 7.5 wounds, round off to 8 ,from the Wraiths against the Hounds. and ~3.75 (round to 4) from the Hounds+Herald against the Wraiths. In this instance, the Hounds lose combat by 4, lets say on average they lose 3 wounds from Daemonic Instability.
From there, even if the other unit of 6 is able to get in a charge in the next turn, the Wraiths should eventually end up victorious once all is said and done. If we want to just assume Grimoir works, and simply assume a 3++, then that evens things up a lot more, but by the same token, even one round of it failing will result in a massacre of the Hounds.
*IF* the Flesh Hounds get off the charge, then the odds shift in their favor, but that Herald impairing their mobility makes it far more likely the Wraiths will initiate combat as opposed to either side having a roughly equal chance, shifting the favor over to the Wraiths.
RunicFIN wrote: There are tons of options that can beat Wraiths in melee. Personally I did well with Be'lakor and Flesh Hounds who had a Grimoire + Hatred Locus Herald with them.
The dogs did most of the work on the charge really, and they only cost a fraction of the Wraiths.
And how much is that combined unit together? Far more than any Wraight unit would have costed.
The Flesh Hounds can put a lot of hurt on the Wraiths potentially, no doubt, but they're also a lot easier to cut down before combat, require more support, and if the Wraiths have Whipcoils, the Hounds are striking last.
Which is why I said the Flesh Hounds did most of the work, regarding the cost of the combatants. The original question was if there are things that can beat Wraiths in combat, and I answered that.
Seems like you somehow -want- the Wraiths to beat pretty much anything. Luckily in reality this isn't the case, for they can be beaten with a ton of different units.
In any case, is anyone able to calculate say, 2 full units of Wraiths with Whip Coils going against the same point cost worth of Flesh Hounds with Grimoire, Hatred Locus and the Herald included in the points cost? Would be interesting. If the Wraiths cost so much the Flesh Hound unit reaches it's maximum amount of models, then add a separate unit without the Grimoire into the mix to make the point costs even.
I don't see why it matters that a unit needs more support to beat the Wraiths on their own. It certainly doesn't on the tabletop - support or no, the Wraiths end up dead.
I don't "want" the Wraiths to beat pretty much everything, just pointing out the large mismatch with the example you gave and the contingencies involved.
Now, two full units of Wraiths with whip coils is going to be worth 26 hounds with herald with grimoire and hatred locus.
Now, if we're assuming the Herald is accompanying the Flesh Hounds, that means the Flesh Hounds mobility is significantly impaired, moving and charging as Infantry instead of Beasts.
This presents an issue as it would indicate that the Wraiths would have the choice of when, how, and where to engage. The smaller unit will not be similarly impaired, but will almost certainly be wiped out if it attempts to charge first on its own. So we'll assume the Wraiths get the charge, and as such engage just the large Grimoire unit. Now, we'll average the chance of Grimoire working vs failing in our comparison here, and equate that 3++ 2/3rds of the time and 6++ 1/3rd of the time to a 4++ on average here. we get 7.5 wounds, round off to 8 ,from the Wraiths against the Hounds. and ~3.75 (round to 4) from the Hounds+Herald against the Wraiths. In this instance, the Hounds lose combat by 4, lets say on average they lose 3 wounds from Daemonic Instability.
From there, even if the other unit of 6 is able to get in a charge in the next turn, the Wraiths should eventually end up victorious once all is said and done. If we want to just assume Grimoir works, and simply assume a 3++, then that evens things up a lot more, but by the same token, even one round of it failing will result in a massacre of the Hounds.
*IF* the Flesh Hounds get off the charge, then the odds shift in their favor, but that Herald impairing their mobility makes it far more likely the Wraiths will initiate combat as opposed to either side having a roughly equal chance, shifting the favor over to the Wraiths.
IDK, the mobility of a large unit of Beasts with a single IC attached isn't so bad; the front beasts can still move 12", then the next rank 11", etc until you string a couple out to let the character stay attached.
I've never seen a whole unit move 6" just to allow one character to stay attached - usually, they are roughly the same speed but just more spread out.
So here's a curious question. Why did they make the necron Monolith an Ordinance Weapon?
AP 3 ordinance is... i mean it literally can't destroy a vehicle without help. So why make it ordinance? I mean if it had been made AP 2, or just NOT ORDINANCE, it would have been fine. But they didn't.
Jancoran wrote: So here's a curious question. Why did they make the necron Monolith an Ordinance Weapon?
AP 3 ordinance is... i mean it literally can't destroy a vehicle without help. So why make it ordinance? I mean if it had been made AP 2, or just NOT ORDINANCE, it would have been fine. But they didn't.
So odd.
It was Ordnance in the 3E and 5E books too. Always has been.
The Leman Russ Battle Tank's main cannon is Ordnance, and it's AP3, it's not like it's going to be doing much other than lamely stripping HP's either.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Yeah. Ordnance is silly. It's basically a "Snap-fire everything else keyword" for little benefit.
Which they cleverly worked around for the Doomsday ark by giving it the formerly "superheavy-only" rule "Primary Weapon", which gives the armor pen bonus but none of the downsides...
Unit1126PLL wrote: Yeah. Ordnance is silly. It's basically a "Snap-fire everything else keyword" for little benefit.
Which they cleverly worked around for the Doomsday ark by giving it the formerly "superheavy-only" rule "Primary Weapon", which gives the armor pen bonus but none of the downsides...
Yeah, dunno why that gained Primary Weapon, and the monolith is still meh.
The general assumption has been that every ch formation is spyder, 3 scarabs, 6 wraith with coils.
But what about just getting in the minimum to fit in more formations? Even a single wraith with RP is still a pain and a half to kill, and can still tie up units or smack rear armor on tanks for some damage. So I went for a more msu approach to the harvest to maximize the amount of disruption caused on the board by unanswered wraiths roaming about and doing as they please.
(Halfway shameless plug to get a conversation started on the list since it seems like 40k lists is an almost dead forum anytime I go there.)
The general assumption has been that every ch formation is spyder, 3 scarabs, 6 wraith with coils.
But what about just getting in the minimum to fit in more formations? Even a single wraith with RP is still a pain and a half to kill, and can still tie up units or smack rear armor on tanks for some damage. So I went for a more msu approach to the harvest to maximize the amount of disruption caused on the board by unanswered wraiths roaming about and doing as they please.
(Halfway shameless plug to get a conversation started on the list since it seems like 40k lists is an almost dead forum anytime I go there.)
Also, just to get this out there, I will never play that formation as only one spyder allowed. I've cleared it up with my friends, and while the wording is weird, there is no restriction on the formation itself. Plus, saying you can't add more to the unit would also mean you can't add options to the spyder either.
Jancoran wrote: So here's a curious question. Why did they make the necron Monolith an Ordinance Weapon?
AP 3 ordinance is... i mean it literally can't destroy a vehicle without help. So why make it ordinance? I mean if it had been made AP 2, or just NOT ORDINANCE, it would have been fine. But they didn't.
So odd.
It was Ordnance in the 3E and 5E books too. Always has been.
The Leman Russ Battle Tank's main cannon is Ordnance, and it's AP3, it's not like it's going to be doing much other than lamely stripping HP's either.
I got all that already. What I want to know is, why? Lost the Door attack also. Same points. I mean maybe Im missing an important reason or balance they were trying to strike but it just seems like the Monolith which is iconic, kinda just isn't.
Jancoran wrote: So here's a curious question. Why did they make the necron Monolith an Ordinance Weapon?
AP 3 ordinance is... i mean it literally can't destroy a vehicle without help. So why make it ordinance? I mean if it had been made AP 2, or just NOT ORDINANCE, it would have been fine. But they didn't.
So odd.
It was Ordnance in the 3E and 5E books too. Always has been.
The Leman Russ Battle Tank's main cannon is Ordnance, and it's AP3, it's not like it's going to be doing much other than lamely stripping HP's either.
I got all that already. What I want to know is, why? Lost the Door attack also. Same points. I mean maybe Im missing an important reason or balance they were trying to strike but it just seems like the Monolith which is iconic, kinda just isn't.
Same thing happened to the Russ. They realized that the Ordnance rule affecting it's other weaponry was dumb, gave it a rule to bypass that, then made a generic core rule that didn't really do quite the same thing and applied that instead, and thus the ordnance bearing Leman Russ tanks see relatively little use. Nobody here is a mind reader, but, much like with the Leman Russ, they probably just copy-pasted the old version without really caring to give it any thought.
I played a game last night against the new necrons at 1500 pts. My opponent took a royal court with a cryptek, nemsor zahdrik ,and one other character and put them with 20 flayed ones. he was able to deepstrike right in front of me and everybody in the squad had a 5+ invul against shooting, with a 4+ reanimation protocol. He ran is nemsor out in front with a 2+ save and absored wound after wound due to the invul and reanimations. You cant get near them because he took an artefect that was Strength 7 ap 2 flamer, and when you assault them if you dont kill atleast 10 (which is impossible due to reanimation protocol) you're going to die because they have 4 attacks each ontop of the independent characters with warsycthes and crap. And that was just one unit. I got murdered. Necrons seem ridiculously overpowered at first glance.
fixxxer76 wrote: I played a game last night against the new necrons at 1500 pts. My opponent took a royal court with a cryptek, nemsor zahdrik ,and one other character and put them with 20 flayed ones. he was able to deepstrike right in front of me and everybody in the squad had a 5+ invul against shooting, with a 4+ reanimation protocol. He ran is nemsor out in front with a 2+ save and absored wound after wound due to the invul and reanimations. You cant get near them because he took an artefect that was Strength 7 ap 2 flamer, and when you assault them if you dont kill atleast 10 (which is impossible due to reanimation protocol) you're going to die because they have 4 attacks each ontop of the independent characters with warsycthes and crap. And that was just one unit. I got murdered. Necrons seem ridiculously overpowered at first glance.
That Deathstar unit was about half the points of his 1500 point army.
Lord with Flamer and Deepstrike artifacts (100+), Cryptek with Chronometron (95+), Nemesor Zandrek (170?), Flayed Ones (260)
The flamer artifact is a single shot item. I don't see how it held off your entire army.
Also, shooting targets the nearest enemy model. Was his manuvering so masterful that your entire army could only shoot Nemsor Zandrek ?
fixxxer76 wrote: I played a game last night against the new necrons at 1500 pts. My opponent took a royal court with a cryptek, nemsor zahdrik ,and one other character and put them with 20 flayed ones. he was able to deepstrike right in front of me and everybody in the squad had a 5+ invul against shooting, with a 4+ reanimation protocol. He ran is nemsor out in front with a 2+ save and absored wound after wound due to the invul and reanimations. You cant get near them because he took an artefect that was Strength 7 ap 2 flamer, and when you assault them if you dont kill atleast 10 (which is impossible due to reanimation protocol) you're going to die because they have 4 attacks each ontop of the independent characters with warsycthes and crap. And that was just one unit. I got murdered. Necrons seem ridiculously overpowered at first glance.
That Deathstar unit was about half the points of his 1500 point army.
Lord with Flamer and Deepstrike artifacts (100+), Cryptek with Chronometron (95+), Nemesor Zandrek (170?), Flayed Ones (260)
The flamer artifact is a single shot item. I don't see how it held off your entire army.
Also, shooting targets the nearest enemy model. Was his manuvering so masterful that your entire army could only shoot Nemsor Zandrek ?
Deathstars generally are a large portion of your points.
BlackArmour wrote: Deathstars generally are a large portion of your points.
True. My point was that when 750'ish point unit attacks a squad on your side of the board, which probably doesn't cost nearly as much. it's probably going to die, and has more to do with the points involved than army balance.
Somewhere in the deepths of GW secret underground development studio in hell:
- Here, let me present you The Monolith! It's supposed to be the centerpiece of any necron army. It's a canonical pyramid that shoots in all directions, synergises well with the rest of the army and has a fearful s8 ap3 large blast!
- Large, you say? Why not make it Ordnance!
Everyone: Yeah, sounds Cool! I've always loved ordnance! The more special rules - the better!
- ...but than it won't be able to effectively use it's massive armament...
Everyone: Ordnance sounds cool! I love the name! The more special rules - the better!
yeah Ordinance was a real bad call. And think about it: AP 3 doesnt even kill a vehicle anymore. A Hullpoint is the most you can hope for and thats REAL disappointing given its supposed to be a cool weapon. Open topped vehicles might fear it I guess but psh... They already did and they jink 90% of the time. Either make it aP2 if youre going to make it ordinance OR make it not ordinance
Easy fix: GW says "oops, remove the Ordinance rule, we meant it not to be". And EVERYONE rejoices The Monolith should be freaking COOL in some way.
Having played a 1.5K game today against them with my Sisters and scratching out a win I've pretty much confirmed my previous opinion: they are VERY durable (more so when my opponent won't stop rolling RP saves in large numbers) but they really need to focus fire to effectively kill things. More than once I saw 2-3 units targeting a single unit or vehicle to take care of it. Even when the rolls were above average it just wasn't enough to be 100% effective.
They have a lot of durability and that was more of a problem for me than their ability to actually wound me as they took fewer wounds in return than saves.
Basically it was kind of like playing against an army like Blood Angels where everything had a constant FnP save.
I'm reevaluating some parts of my list to solve the issue I found where my army just wasn't quite handling it effectively.
Also I killed a unit of Wraiths in the game (1 dead Wraith from Exorcist shooting before they got RP since I went first, 2 died in melee locked with a Battle Conclave (3 Crusaders, 4 DCA and an Arco-Flagellant) with Jacobus and a Priest) and it took an Overlord on a Command Barge (Warscythe, Phase Shifter, Tesla Cannon) to finally break the unit.
So yeah, not really fearing Necrons, just thinking that I need to look at playing the game a touch differently to beat them by a larger margin (also maybe getting my dice blessed so I don't waste my second turn shooting by not hitting or wounding anything).
Hollismason wrote: I'm pretty sure GWs design proccess is a series of D6 flow charts seriously they love random gak. This is basically GWs design Process
1- Increase Cost of Unit
2-5 Cost Remain the same but roll twice on special abilities
6 Reduce cost by half Reroll
Abilities
1- Fear
2-3 Ability that has no use
3-5 Ability that has situational use
6- Ability that actually matches unit
The Necron codex rolled really well on it's create a codex chart and we got a lot of rerolls, meanwhiles Orks rolled 1s across the board.
Yeah, I played against an Ork friend last night, and he got a lucky shot against my Ghost Ark and exploded it. That was it. Stormboyz charged 3 Tomb Blades, and I won combat. A ton of Nobz with Klaws and a Warboss charged my warriors with an overlord. He killed 2 warriors. I ended up tabling him before the end of turn 5. I feel bad for Orks, honestly. Their book isn't bad, but they just seem to not have as good stuff as they should.
Holy crap, stormboyz losing to tomb blades and nobz + warboss losing to warriors sounds terrifying - orks charging, no less. What sort of numbers were you talking? If, like, 5 stormboyz charged 5 TB, I could see it, but any sort of decently sized squad should have been good enough.
I mean, I'm sitting here concerned about wraiths and flayed ones, but if nobz are losing to warriors.......that's either outrageously bad luck, mismatched/poorly equipped nobz, or a really bad time to be orks.
But, it's kind of been a bad time to be orks since June 2014, so I'm kind of afraid of what the answer will be.
Do you recall the approx. numbers and wargear of the orks and their targets? Just curious. Because I'd REALLY like to know under what circumstances nobs would lose to necron warriors in CC.
Kap'n Krump wrote: Holy crap, stormboyz losing to tomb blades and nobz + warboss losing to warriors sounds terrifying - orks charging, no less. What sort of numbers were you talking? If, like, 5 stormboyz charged 5 TB, I could see it, but any sort of decently sized squad should have been good enough.
I mean, I'm sitting here concerned about wraiths and flayed ones, but if nobz are losing to warriors.......that's either outrageously bad luck, mismatched/poorly equipped nobz, or a really bad time to be orks.
But, it's kind of been a bad time to be orks since June 2014, so I'm kind of afraid of what the answer will be.
Do you recall the approx. numbers and wargear of the orks and their targets? Just curious.
It was about 8-9 Stormboyz that charged 3 Tomb Blades. They managed to kill one that turn of combat, and the tomb blades killed one, so it was a draw. Next combat phase, since they didn't charge, they did nothing to the Blades, and proceeded to lose combat.
Then, the Warboss's unit. He had Headwoppa's Killchoppa, a couple Nobz (I think there was like, 9 total nobz) had just CC weapons and pistols, and about 5 nobz had Power Klaws. I had about 15 or so warriors, a Cryptek, and an Overlord with nothing but a Voidblade. Warboss did a wound in the challenge, and I did none. But, between all of his wounds dealt to my warriors, I had a 4+ RP (reduced to 5+ for Klaws because of ID, but the cryptek kept it at a 4+), and I popped my Res Orb. I lost a total of 2 warriors, then dealt I believe two wounds back. I lost combat by 1, passed my leadership. Next two phases, they did even less damage, and the next phase after that, my Lychguard and my Warlord (Voidreaper, MSS, Phase shifter, ext) charged in and killed probably 4+ nobz on their own. It was butal.
Kap'n Krump wrote: I can see how that happened (especially with the stormboyz), and burning a rez orb to absorb the nob charge was a good play, but......damn.
Warriors shrugging of a full unit of charging nobz like that is pretty terrifying.
Well yeah, but that way I look at it is this. People complain that Necrons shrug off charging units (I had a single warrior tank 12 AP3 wounds from Bloodcrushers in my first game), but think about it. Necrons don't have any defense against being Over run. They're not Stubborn, their Init 2, ext. So, absorbing a charge with a one-time use item isn't that obnoxious, in the grand scheme of things. Otherwise, I would've lost Imotekh and my Royal court with ease.
Overrunning Necrons works great. Celestine nuked two units in two turns that way by herself. If the Seraphim were alive to make combat it would have probably been even faster.
The thing is putting the right units in the right places to deal with appropriate threats.
ClockworkZion wrote: Overrunning Necrons works great. Celestine nuked two units in two turns that way by herself. If the Seraphim were alive to make combat it would have probably been even faster.
The thing is putting the right units in the right places to deal with appropriate threats.
I'm just glad we have defenses against it now. Bubbles of rerolling morale checks, Res Orbs, better RP, ext. Makes me happy.
ClockworkZion wrote: Overrunning Necrons works great. Celestine nuked two units in two turns that way by herself. If the Seraphim were alive to make combat it would have probably been even faster.
The thing is putting the right units in the right places to deal with appropriate threats.
I'm just glad we have defenses against it now. Bubbles of rerolling morale checks, Res Orbs, better RP, ext. Makes me happy.
Oh no, I'm talking about this happening yesterday. Celestine killed a couple of models, dropped the LD, and the unit broke. At I7 she can't roll low enough to not catch them and she wiped 2 units.
That game sounded great.
It looks like you have to play really tactical and win on VP's to beat Necrons.
Just rushing in and wiping them out does not seem to be a viable "tactic" any more.
Getting 'Purge the Alien' against us would be a terrible mission though
krodarklorr wrote: Yeah, dunno why that gained Primary Weapon, and the monolith is still meh.
So it can use its Gauss Flayers.
And because Relentless affects Ordnance, but not Primary Weapon.
What does Relentless affecting Ordnance have to do with anything?
Because if it had Ordnance, one could argue that it counts as stationary and thus could move and use it's high power-profile.
Now whenever such a thread arises we can simply point out that Primary Weapon isn't affected by Relentless and be done with it
ClockworkZion wrote: Overrunning Necrons works great. Celestine nuked two units in two turns that way by herself. If the Seraphim were alive to make combat it would have probably been even faster.
The thing is putting the right units in the right places to deal with appropriate threats.
I'm just glad we have defenses against it now. Bubbles of rerolling morale checks, Res Orbs, better RP, ext. Makes me happy.
Oh no, I'm talking about this happening yesterday. Celestine killed a couple of models, dropped the LD, and the unit broke. At I7 she can't roll low enough to not catch them and she wiped 2 units.
Sounds about right. Only time I've lost a unit now to Sweeping (I've played 2 games only, and both against assaulting armies) was a group of Immortals that got charged by a Skull Cannon, and couldn't hurt it. Other than that, it would appear getting swept is a distant memory for me.
Kangodo wrote: That game sounded great.
It looks like you have to play really tactical and win on VP's to beat Necrons.
Just rushing in and wiping them out does not seem to be a viable "tactic" any more.
Getting 'Purge the Alien' against us would be a terrible mission though
Playing tactically helps in general but your dice not turning traitor on you (my second turn's shooting was 100% useless and the scatter die I loaned my opponent twice roll hits both times despite his really high scatter rolls with the Blast/Lance on his Doom Scythe) helps a lot too. When I was rolling at least average I did fine, but when my dice stopped my whole army would grind to a halt.
Not much I can do fix that without something like a handful of Divination Inquisitors or something.
ClockworkZion wrote: Overrunning Necrons works great. Celestine nuked two units in two turns that way by herself. If the Seraphim were alive to make combat it would have probably been even faster.
The thing is putting the right units in the right places to deal with appropriate threats.
I'm just glad we have defenses against it now. Bubbles of rerolling morale checks, Res Orbs, better RP, ext. Makes me happy.
Oh no, I'm talking about this happening yesterday. Celestine killed a couple of models, dropped the LD, and the unit broke. At I7 she can't roll low enough to not catch them and she wiped 2 units.
Sounds about right. Only time I've lost a unit now to Sweeping (I've played 2 games only, and both against assaulting armies) was a group of Immortals that got charged by a Skull Cannon, and couldn't hurt it. Other than that, it would appear getting swept is a distant memory for me.
In theory they can hurt Celestine (hit on 4s, wound on 3s) but they only did 1 wound to her between the 2 sets of Overwatch and collectively 4 rounds of combat.
In theory they can hurt Celestine (hit on 4s, wound on 3s) but they only did 1 wound to her between the 2 sets of Overwatch and collectively 4 rounds of combat.
Did he have an Overlord in either squad? I'm pretty sure he would've done well, especially if he's kitted for CC.
In theory they can hurt Celestine (hit on 4s, wound on 3s) but they only did 1 wound to her between the 2 sets of Overwatch and collectively 4 rounds of combat.
Did he have an Overlord in either squad? I'm pretty sure he would've done well, especially if he's kitted for CC.
His Overlord was on a CCB who was on the other side of the board killing my Battle Conclave (over 3 combats to break them) and then went after my unit on my objective. It was seriously the most effective thing in his army close combat wise, even more so than the Wraiths (D6 Impact hits when he keeps rolling high don't help either).
In theory they can hurt Celestine (hit on 4s, wound on 3s) but they only did 1 wound to her between the 2 sets of Overwatch and collectively 4 rounds of combat.
Did he have an Overlord in either squad? I'm pretty sure he would've done well, especially if he's kitted for CC.
His Overlord was on a CCB who was on the other side of the board killing my Battle Conclave (over 3 combats to break them) and then went after my unit on my objective. It was seriously the most effective thing in his army close combat wise, even more so than the Wraiths (D6 Impact hits when he keeps rolling high don't help either).
Well, that was his first mistake in my opinion. The command barge really isn't usable as a killing machine like it used to be. It's more of a support option, especially since and Overlord has some decent shooting skills now.
In theory they can hurt Celestine (hit on 4s, wound on 3s) but they only did 1 wound to her between the 2 sets of Overwatch and collectively 4 rounds of combat.
Did he have an Overlord in either squad? I'm pretty sure he would've done well, especially if he's kitted for CC.
His Overlord was on a CCB who was on the other side of the board killing my Battle Conclave (over 3 combats to break them) and then went after my unit on my objective. It was seriously the most effective thing in his army close combat wise, even more so than the Wraiths (D6 Impact hits when he keeps rolling high don't help either).
Well, that was his first mistake in my opinion. The command barge really isn't usable as a killing machine like it used to be. It's more of a support option, especially since and Overlord has some decent shooting skills now.
The bargeLord has an achilles heel but if you protect that heel he is still beastly and crazy fast. Don't send him after Dreadknights!
In theory they can hurt Celestine (hit on 4s, wound on 3s) but they only did 1 wound to her between the 2 sets of Overwatch and collectively 4 rounds of combat.
Did he have an Overlord in either squad? I'm pretty sure he would've done well, especially if he's kitted for CC.
His Overlord was on a CCB who was on the other side of the board killing my Battle Conclave (over 3 combats to break them) and then went after my unit on my objective. It was seriously the most effective thing in his army close combat wise, even more so than the Wraiths (D6 Impact hits when he keeps rolling high don't help either).
Well, that was his first mistake in my opinion. The command barge really isn't usable as a killing machine like it used to be. It's more of a support option, especially since and Overlord has some decent shooting skills now.
It gives the Lord mobility and with a Phase Shifter and Warscythe it was more than good enough to do the job. Plus it killed my unit that managed to kill his Wraiths while taking 0 wounds over 4 combats with 2 Wraiths and a stack of Scarabs.
Last week I had a bloodthirsrer get locked up by 5 tomb blades for 3 turns till some flayed ones came in for the rescue.
Today 2 Nurgle Daemon Princes with baleswords killed 1 of 10man unit of warriors on the charge. Damn that 4+ rerole 1 Rp. It may not be broken but it' can seem pretty unfun. I'm getting a little shy about trying to cc them with MC's.
oftenwrong wrote: Last week I had a bloodthirsrer get locked up by 5 tomb blades for 3 turns till some flayed ones came in for the rescue.
Today 2 Nurgle Daemon Princes with baleswords killed 1 of 10man unit of warriors on the charge. Damn that 4+ rerole 1 Rp. It may not be broken but it' can seem pretty unfun. I'm getting a little shy about trying to cc them with MC's.
ID is your friend vs Necrons. ID and AP (and a Bloodthirster should be APing those bikes meaning all they would get is the RP).
oftenwrong wrote: Yeah, I would have thought that too but crons can be buffed to get a 4+RP even when taking a ID hits.
So 2 Nurgle Daemon are going to kill something like 3 warriors and a thirster is going to kill maybe 2 blades?
Them taking a 4+ save is better than a 4+/4+ or a 3+/4+. And they can be buffed, but unless they put a Cryptek in each unit and took the Decurion (which means they had to take a Royal Court) they won't get better than a 5+ RP.
Commissar41.0 wrote: ...no more Mindschake Scarab BS? Imma happy man...and no more 3+ invuln....somebody stop me im going to sing on the rooftop
Sing all you want. Yet, why is no one complaining about 245 pt space marines with a 2+/3++ 4 wounds that are better in CC? Unless, of course, you play space marines. Right, forgot which game we're playing here.
Commissar41.0 wrote: ...no more Mindschake Scarab BS? Imma happy man...and no more 3+ invuln....somebody stop me im going to sing on the rooftop
Sing all you want. Yet, why is no one complaining about 245 pt space marines with a 2+/3++ 4 wounds that are better in CC? Unless, of course, you play space marines. Right, forgot which game we're playing here.
Well, some of us do complain about the insane proliferation of extremely powerful invul saves.
That said, said 245pt Space Marines weren't able to play allocation gimmicks with an AV13 shielded skimmer and/or have a relatively cheap wargear item which would, more often than not, even against the highest Ld possible in the game, result in an enemy model (particularly in a challenge) attacking its own side or doing nothing.
Commissar41.0 wrote: ...no more Mindschake Scarab BS? Imma happy man...and no more 3+ invuln....somebody stop me im going to sing on the rooftop
Sing all you want. Yet, why is no one complaining about 245 pt space marines with a 2+/3++ 4 wounds that are better in CC? Unless, of course, you play space marines. Right, forgot which game we're playing here.
Well, some of us do complain about the insane proliferation of extremely powerful invul saves.
That said, said 245pt Space Marines weren't able to play allocation gimmicks with an AV13 shielded skimmer and/or have a relatively cheap wargear item which would, more often than not, even against the highest Ld possible in the game, result in an enemy model (particularly in a challenge) attacking its own side or doing nothing.
He also has no secondary save (FNP/RP) unless Iron Hands, and statistically, secondary saves make enormous differences in unit survivability. He's also in an army with Tactical marines, which are an expensive, useless unit outperformed by everything in all roles, whereas Necrons currently don't have bad units, nevermind ones they *have* to take.
Regardless, I do agree the proliferation of invulns, both high and low is irritating, but is a naturally byproduct in the creep of AP3/2/1 weapons in the game. In 5th, Guard mechvets toting plasma/melta by the threes was considered kind of the epitome of low AP spam, but now you've got things like Eldar where the worst AP in their entire army is 3! (roll dependent, mind you) and everyone but Orks can cram in enormous volumes of low AP firepower; rather than reign in the number of toys, GW has opted to hand out invulns, and re-rollable invulns to counteract that. One of the things that makes Newnewcrons so durable is their army-wide secondary saves aren't affected by the massive AP creep, especially as the army has good access to invulns.
The old necron codex was a horribly atrociously internally balanced codex that was effective because of silly gimmic builds that have little to do with the necron fluff and were partly the result of edition changes.
The Decurion is awesome because it allows a "fluffy" (I'm almost tempted to say "realistic") army to be viable, and I hope they do something similar with all the other factions so we get away from endless, tedious processions of flying hive tyrants with twin-liked devourers and riptides upon riptides.
So, are Decurion Necrons as broken as they seem? Is it possible to beat them on objectives in Maelstrom/Eternal War?
So far based on having read through the Codex and one game vs them (loose on wipe) my early opinion is that a) Decurion thiny is OP/Broken b) Wraiths are OP
I don't see how you beat them on point for point killing without using the cheesiest OP combos out there? In friendly games it sure does not seem possible, which means it's no fun playing either with or against them. Unless I am wrong and you can win on objectives. Usually however, if you can't kill anything you are still going to loose.
The old Codex was already strong, this new one takes them to at least Eldar levels IMHO.
Alcibiades wrote: The old necron codex was a horribly atrociously internally balanced codex that was effective because of silly gimmic builds that have little to do with the necron fluff and were partly the result of edition changes.
The Decurion is awesome because it allows a "fluffy" (I'm almost tempted to say "realistic") army to be viable, and I hope they do something similar with all the other factions so we get away from endless, tedious processions of flying hive tyrants with twin-liked devourers and riptides upon riptides.
This sounds good, only problem is that it's going to take 3 years to replace all other Codexes and in the mean time everyone else will loose (out).
Alcibiades wrote: The old necron codex was a horribly atrociously internally balanced codex that was effective because of silly gimmic builds that have little to do with the necron fluff and were partly the result of edition changes.
The Decurion is awesome because it allows a "fluffy" (I'm almost tempted to say "realistic") army to be viable, and I hope they do something similar with all the other factions so we get away from endless, tedious processions of flying hive tyrants with twin-liked devourers and riptides upon riptides.
This sounds good, only problem is that it's going to take 3 years to replace all other Codexes and in the mean time everyone else will loose (out).
It could be done with dataslate formations I think. In fact the Decurion is kind of a dataslate within the codex (as is realspace raiders).
Is it possible to beat them on objectives in Maelstrom/Eternal War?
Yes. Decurion lacks ObSec, which will be it's downfall.
So far based on having read through the Codex and one game vs them (loose on wipe) my early opinion is that
a) Decurion thiny is OP/Broken
b) Wraiths are OP
So after a single game, against a new codex, you never played against before, that you were obviuosly unprepared for, you lost, and therefore it must obviously be OP ?
I don't see how you beat them on point for point killing without using the cheesiest OP combos out there?
Necrons lost killing power for increased survivbility. People used to defeat them with the same armies and tactics that work against Space Marines, that approach no longer works. S and AP are not as important as Volume Of Fire. Instead of trying to deny them saves, you have to force them to make lots of saves.
In friendly games it sure does not seem possible, which means it's no fun playing either with or against them. Unless I am wrong and you can win on objectives. Usually however, if you can't kill anything you are still going to loose.
Since the Decurion lacks ObSec, you can steal and deny them objectives with CAD troops. You can still can still kill, it just takes twice as many shots as it used to.
The old Codex was already strong, this new one takes them to at least Eldar levels IMHO.
Give it a month, and people will figure out how to deal with them, and adjust their playstyle accordingly.
Our necron players have very quickly figured out that after you kill the 3 or mabye 4 things with obsec its game over. That is literally all you have to do to faceroll to victory with necrons now, because nobody plays them without the 4+.
In a month, it wont have died down. In a month, you will get the same looks the taudar player got in 6th.
Thus far, a lack of Objective Securedd has indeed been why the Necrons arent beating me yet. That can bwe overcome by throwing a Combined Arms Detachment in just for that purpose though. I think a more balanced army is the one that's going to have success based on my few games thus far.
Nothing is unbeatable. The way to beat necrons is to have a few anti tank weapons for barges and then volume of fire for everything else. Force the saves. They can't win them all. I took double scatter laser war walkers and ate squads of warriors and immortals from a distance.
westiebestie wrote: So, are Decurion Necrons as broken as they seem? Is it possible to beat them on objectives in Maelstrom/Eternal War?
So far based on having read through the Codex and one game vs them (loose on wipe) my early opinion is that
a) Decurion thiny is OP/Broken
b) Wraiths are OP
I don't see how you beat them on point for point killing without using the cheesiest OP combos out there? In friendly games it sure does not seem possible, which means it's no fun playing either with or against them. Unless I am wrong and you can win on objectives. Usually however, if you can't kill anything you are still going to loose.
The old Codex was already strong, this new one takes them to at least Eldar levels IMHO.
Alcibiades wrote: The old necron codex was a horribly atrociously internally balanced codex that was effective because of silly gimmic builds that have little to do with the necron fluff and were partly the result of edition changes.
The Decurion is awesome because it allows a "fluffy" (I'm almost tempted to say "realistic") army to be viable, and I hope they do something similar with all the other factions so we get away from endless, tedious processions of flying hive tyrants with twin-liked devourers and riptides upon riptides.
This sounds good, only problem is that it's going to take 3 years to replace all other Codexes and in the mean time everyone else will loose (out).
The Decurion is beatable. I've done it with Sisters. And if I can do it with my monobuild codex anyone can do it if they play smart enough.
What I want to see is how hard a Necron Apocalypse sized army would be to defeat. With so many new formations that they got in their book and the Infinite Phalanx giving them even better reanimation protocols. There is just nobody around here who has enough necrons to match my Eldar points :(
adamsouza wrote: Give it a month, and people will figure out how to deal with them, and adjust their playstyle accordingly.
Honestly, we only need to wait one more week. After the Las Vegas Open this coming weekend, we should have a pretty good idea about just what the Necrons are capable of.
Alcibiades wrote: The old necron codex was a horribly atrociously internally balanced codex that was effective because of silly gimmic builds that have little to do with the necron fluff and were partly the result of edition changes.
The Decurion is awesome because it allows a "fluffy" (I'm almost tempted to say "realistic") army to be viable.
Is it possible to beat them on objectives in Maelstrom/Eternal War?
Yes. Decurion lacks ObSec, which will be it's downfall.
People seem to make a lot out of ObSec...yet this only matters if an objective is in fact contested in the first place with one of your own ObSec units. Since 7E's been out, I think I've seen this actually kick in for three whole objectves and only swing a game once...against another army with ObSec.
It's certainly not going to be any sort of "downfall" for them. Is it nice? Sure. Does it in any way match the utility and army-wide versatility of the Decurion bonuses? Absolutely not, doesn't even come close.
So after a single game, against a new codex, you never played against before, that you were obviuosly unprepared for, you lost, and therefore it must obviously be OP ?
Lets not kid ourselves here, there are some things that you can largely just look at and tell they're overdone. Same thing with say, 130pt IG Vendettas in 5E. From the games I've seen/played so far, the first impressions appear to be largely accurate, these things are pretty insanely hard to stop.
Xerics wrote: Nothing is unbeatable. The way to beat necrons is to have a few anti tank weapons for barges and then volume of fire for everything else. Force the saves. They can't win them all. I took double scatter laser war walkers and ate squads of warriors and immortals from a distance.
The only downside, at least from my experience so far in two games, is that even weight of fire, and low AP attacks, Necrons are still hard to kill. Bloodcrushers dealing 19 AP3 wounds in CC, I lost 2 wounds. 9 Nobz and a Warboss charging in, most of them with Power Klawz, I lost 2 wounds.
I'm even less afraid of a Vehicle, such as War Walkers.
Vaktathi wrote: People seem to make a lot out of ObSec...yet this only matters if an objective is in fact contested in the first place with one of your own ObSec units.
Just because It may be a meta thing that people don't play up in your local meta, doesn't mean it's not valuable.
In my personal gaming experience, objectives get contested almost every game. I've won games by contesting my enemies objectives, while holding my own. Obsec is a valuable tool for that.
There was one game where a central objective was held for 5 rounds by a lone Space Marine scout with Obsec, while my Necron army fruitlessly tried to route him out of cover and take control of it.
Vaktathi wrote: People seem to make a lot out of ObSec...yet this only matters if an objective is in fact contested in the first place with one of your own ObSec units.
Just because It may be a meta thing that people don't play up in your local meta, doesn't mean it's not valuable.
In my personal gaming experience, objectives get contested almost every game. I've won games by contesting my enemies objectives, while holding my own. Obsec is a valuable tool for that.
There was one game where a central objective was held for 5 rounds by a lone Space Marine scout with Obsec, while my Necron army fruitlessly tried to route him out of cover and take control of it.
I was actually trying to kill him with a Monolith, and failed terribly. Then the Monolith got destroyed, blocking the main entrance, and any real line of sight, to the ruins he was hiding in.
On the other side of the table I had a second Monolith contest an objective that was previsouly held by his HQ.
I was actually trying to kill him with a Monolith, and failed terribly. Then the Monolith got destroyed, blocking the main entrance, and any real line of sight, to the ruins he was hiding in.
On the other side of the table I had a second Monolith contest an objective that was previsouly held by his HQ.
To be honest, I started fielding Monoliths out of a sense of novelty. They have proven to have been worth their points, as my opponents will throw EVERY heavy weapon they can at them, until they are destroyed. This frees up the rest of my army to move about, mostly, unmolested until they do.
I actually just ordered an Obelisk, earlier this week, to go with the pair of Monoliths, for added shock and awe value in big games.
adamsouza wrote: To be honest, I started fielding Monoliths out of a sense of novelty. They have proven to have been worth their points, as my opponents will throw EVERY heavy weapon they can at them, until they are destroyed. This frees up the rest of my army to move about, mostly, unmolested until they do.
I actually just ordered an Obelisk, earlier this week, to go with the pair of Monoliths, for added shock and awe value in big games.
Oh yeah, the Obelisk is pretty good now, and the formation is rather useful. It lessened the sting of how "bad" monoliths are when you don't think of them as weapon platforms, but more-so as a transportation method for your entire army, which in fluff is really what they are.
Vaktathi wrote: People seem to make a lot out of ObSec...yet this only matters if an objective is in fact contested in the first place with one of your own ObSec units.
Just because It may be a meta thing that people don't play up in your local meta, doesn't mean it's not valuable.
Not saying it doesn't have value, but it's far from a "downfall", and is highly situational. It only matters if objectives are being contested in the first place, and if either unit would even have the ability to get ObSec in a CAD. If you're contesting an objective with a Leman Russ to your opponent's Flayed One's, well, ObSec isn't going to do much for either party in that instance.
In my personal gaming experience, objectives get contested almost every game. I've won games by contesting my enemies objectives, while holding my own. Obsec is a valuable tool for that.
Absolutely objectives get contested, but for ObSec to do any good it has to specifically be a Troops unit (typically), and if we're talking anything but Troops units involved on the objective, then it's irrelevant.
Is it nice? yes. Is it a critical capability that's going to be a glaring vulnerability? No. Are the Decurion Detachment capabilities a lot more useful? Yes.
There was one game where a central objective was held for 5 rounds by a lone Space Marine scout with Obsec, while my Necron army fruitlessly tried to route him out of cover and take control of it.
That doesn't really sound like a situation where ObSec saved the day, as opposed to him just not dying. If you didn't get anything in there to contest it, he'd have held it either way if for some reason you just couldn't shoot at him, ObSec or no, so ObSec would be rather irrelevant.
If you got something in there to contest it and made ObSec kick in...what did you send in that couldn't kill a single marine in 5 rounds?
Objective Secured is minimized in power gamers minds because they like what the more elite units can do. It has everything to do with the pre-occupation certain competitive players have with "kill Ratios" and the like and nothing to do with logic because heres an inescapable reality, one that no amount of minimizing can delete:
If I keep a mobile unit off the board to start and alive to the end that is Objective Secured, then I only ever have to tie the rest of the objectives...which I can do later also.
So a General who understands the timing of his game better than he does kill ratios will constantly confound the elite players who are trying to out-muscle you.
Jancoran wrote: Objective Secured is minimized in power gamers minds because they like what the more elite units can do. It has everything to do with the pre-occupation certain competitive players have with "kill Ratios" and the like and nothing to do with logic because heres an inescapable reality, one that no amount of minimizing can delete:
If I keep a mobile unit off the board to start and alive to the end that is Objective Secured, then I only ever have to tie the rest of the objectives...which I can do later also.
So a General who understands the timing of his game better than he does kill ratios will constantly confound the elite players who are trying to out-muscle you.
Again, nobody is denying ObSec can have it's uses, but what you describe is relatively easy to counter with a variety of methods, and is highly variable in effectiveness, particularly with Random Game Length (and is precisely why RGL exists) and the way Maelstrom Missions only require you to hold to the end of your own turn. The game generally does a good job of making this tactic more a situational event than an opening plan. Can it work? Sure. Will it work against someone who's seen it before? Often no.
ObSec also isn't always necessarily needed for this to work either, especially if you only need to contest rather than hold.
Jancoran wrote: Objective Secured is minimized in power gamers minds because they like what the more elite units can do. It has everything to do with the pre-occupation certain competitive players have with "kill Ratios" and the like and nothing to do with logic because heres an inescapable reality, one that no amount of minimizing can delete:
If I keep a mobile unit off the board to start and alive to the end that is Objective Secured, then I only ever have to tie the rest of the objectives...which I can do later also.
So a General who understands the timing of his game better than he does kill ratios will constantly confound the elite players who are trying to out-muscle you.
Again, nobody is denying ObSec can have it's uses, but what you describe is relatively easy to counter with a variety of methods, and is highly variable in effectiveness, particularly with Random Game Length (and is precisely why RGL exists) and the way Maelstrom Missions only require you to hold to the end of your own turn. The game generally does a good job of making this tactic more a situational event than an opening plan. Can it work? Sure. Will it work against someone who's seen it before? Often no.
ObSec also isn't always necessarily needed for this to work either, especially if you only need to contest rather than hold.
There are methods of denying objSec which center around area-wise denying access to the objective.
Parking an obelisk or monolith or ghost ark or scarab swarm or warrior blob on top of an objective such that the opponents objsec can't get to the objective at end of game.
There aren't that many OS units which are super durable. If they start giving decurion players problems, they will just get targeted sooner. The decurions survivability does allow it to take extra punishment while it focuses on blowing away troops.
Hey, been playing necrons for about 3-4 years now. Hardcore Necron fanboy most likely always will be and I am the only person at my store that plays them. I have gotten many glares and angered looks even so far as having one of my friends cuss me out about how utterly broken my codex has been in the past, but i digress. Back in 5th-6th edition i scarcely lost, but I did not even spam cheesy tactics, i never fielded more then one night scythe or annihilation barge per game (Because i lacked the models and wanted to simply play fluffy armies) that being said I still rarely ever lost.
When 7th edition was announced i instantly put down 200 bucks got the data cards and special edition. While I waited though i hungrily trolled through rumor forums and threads desperately seeking any new leaks for rules that i might start developing new strategies early, but my biggest fear at the time is that my army would be nerfed to unplayable levels, but i simply smiled and told myself even if they were made useless they would still be my golden army. Then I began to read through the book, annihilation barge increases, tesla nerf, point hike on night scythe, and when i first read reanimation protocol i was devastated in my mind they had taken such a mainstream nerf at first, now being affected by removed from play, instant death, and destroyer D. No more 2 up armor saves or 3 up invulnerable saves on my overlord.
Then I saw the codex for what it was it did change and as i play tested it (going through 5 matches since its release) my worst fears actually came to life. I started to feel like they made my army even stronger! I have been desperately looking for forums for other peoples opinions. So perhaps some of my experiences will help this out. For starters 2 weeks ago i fought some nids and marveled at my 10 lychguard with 1 overlord being deepstruck behind enemy lines. I boldly held my ground when the swarm lord charged me confident my new CC masters could defeat, combat had lasted a stunning 4 rounds before a victor was called. I had bested the swarm lord 3 times only causing him a total of 4 wounds (he also regained 2 from IWND) getting one lucky round off he downed 3 lychguard. my eyes quickly turned to horror as i now had to make a leadership test of 5 (negative 2 to leadership due to tyranidness...) he over ran me and did some had effectively finished off a very expensive unit. My other encounter of note was trying the canoptek harvest formation, fighting gray knights i could not believe how well things were working with 3++ and a 4 up RP on my wraiths. He had brought 2 dreadknights though and insta gibbed my spyders after teleporting in. Gauss was useful as always but couldn't really pack the punch I needed to bring him down.
So my thoughts are yes Necrons do have incredibly high survivability, but MC's are still incredibly hard to kill. The one group i play with screams gauss is OP at me daily because i can glance or wound anything on 6's (which i don't deny is good) but unless its toughness 8 or higher for creatures its roughly the same as a bolter (in terms of creatures). So does anyone else think that Gauss is broken as a whole? Secondly CC we are better at it for sure, but many units still lack fearless and we can be over run pretty easily in combat. However we now always reanimate on a 5+ no matter what unless its instant death, I do not play in tournaments, period being a strictly casual player I looked to have fun with people so given the new codex should i field a different army? Or would anyone agree that the new codex is balanced? Our codex still lacks a good sum of low AP weapons and we still lack psychic powers, thoughts?
If you didn't spam ABs before then unless you had MSS all over the place the Necrons only got better. RP got a big effective buff, NS point increase can easily be made up by the decreases elsewhere. There are far more viable units in the codex now. Most of the problems with offence people are having is the lack of AB spam, because nothing else really lost offensive power.
The codex is a lot more fun and internally balanced now in my experience.
Sabor wrote: Hey, been playing necrons for about 3-4 years now. Hardcore Necron fanboy most likely always will be and I am the only person at my store that plays them. I have gotten many glares and angered looks even so far as having one of my friends cuss me out about how utterly broken my codex has been in the past, but i digress. Back in 5th-6th edition i scarcely lost, but I did not even spam cheesy tactics, i never fielded more then one night scythe or annihilation barge per game (Because i lacked the models and wanted to simply play fluffy armies) that being said I still rarely ever lost.
When 7th edition was announced i instantly put down 200 bucks got the data cards and special edition. While I waited though i hungrily trolled through rumor forums and threads desperately seeking any new leaks for rules that i might start developing new strategies early, but my biggest fear at the time is that my army would be nerfed to unplayable levels, but i simply smiled and told myself even if they were made useless they would still be my golden army. Then I began to read through the book, annihilation barge increases, tesla nerf, point hike on night scythe, and when i first read reanimation protocol i was devastated in my mind they had taken such a mainstream nerf at first, now being affected by removed from play, instant death, and destroyer D. No more 2 up armor saves or 3 up invulnerable saves on my overlord.
Then I saw the codex for what it was it did change and as i play tested it (going through 5 matches since its release) my worst fears actually came to life. I started to feel like they made my army even stronger! I have been desperately looking for forums for other peoples opinions. So perhaps some of my experiences will help this out. For starters 2 weeks ago i fought some nids and marveled at my 10 lychguard with 1 overlord being deepstruck behind enemy lines. I boldly held my ground when the swarm lord charged me confident my new CC masters could defeat, combat had lasted a stunning 4 rounds before a victor was called. I had bested the swarm lord 3 times only causing him a total of 4 wounds (he also regained 2 from IWND) getting one lucky round off he downed 3 lychguard. my eyes quickly turned to horror as i now had to make a leadership test of 5 (negative 2 to leadership due to tyranidness...) he over ran me and did some had effectively finished off a very expensive unit. My other encounter of note was trying the canoptek harvest formation, fighting gray knights i could not believe how well things were working with 3++ and a 4 up RP on my wraiths. He had brought 2 dreadknights though and insta gibbed my spyders after teleporting in. Gauss was useful as always but couldn't really pack the punch I needed to bring him down.
So my thoughts are yes Necrons do have incredibly high survivability, but MC's are still incredibly hard to kill. The one group i play with screams gauss is OP at me daily because i can glance or wound anything on 6's (which i don't deny is good) but unless its toughness 8 or higher for creatures its roughly the same as a bolter (in terms of creatures). So does anyone else think that Gauss is broken as a whole? Secondly CC we are better at it for sure, but many units still lack fearless and we can be over run pretty easily in combat. However we now always reanimate on a 5+ no matter what unless its instant death, I do not play in tournaments, period being a strictly casual player I looked to have fun with people so given the new codex should i field a different army? Or would anyone agree that the new codex is balanced? Our codex still lacks a good sum of low AP weapons and we still lack psychic powers, thoughts?
Try out decursion. It's a free +1 to RP upping it to 4+. The most gripe is actually about how unkillable crons are with decursion and rerolls to RP.
adamsouza wrote: Just because It may be a meta thing that people don't play up in your local meta, doesn't mean it's not valuable.
In my personal gaming experience, objectives get contested almost every game. I've won games by contesting my enemies objectives, while holding my own. Obsec is a valuable tool for that.
There was one game where a central objective was held for 5 rounds by a lone Space Marine scout with Obsec, while my Necron army fruitlessly tried to route him out of cover and take control of it.
We generally tend to play with quite a big punch in CC, that is why I always valued Objective Secured really low.
You either lost your unit or you killed the enemy, either way there will be only one unit alive after combat.
Necrons are now extremely durable and don't have a high punch.
That means you will probably have more situations where Objective Secured will become relevant.
Don't forget that anything which is a Troops selection in a CAD can have Obsec, from fast transports to Land Raiders to Leman Russ tanks depending on what list you are running.
After running a few games I am convinced that the Necrons are the beast army right now. Started small with a several 750 point games and got up to 1250 points. I just started Necrons so all I have is two battle force boxes, a box of tomb blades, a night scythe, and a command barge. I actually was only able to run 1184 points but my opponents were running 1250. 1250 is the next tournament coming up.
(sorry about my lists, this is off the top of my head as I do not have access to them right now.)
Command barge 170
Warriors x 10 in Ghost Ark 235
Warriors x 10 in Ghost ark 235
Warriors x 10 130
Warriors x 10 130
Immortals x 10 in Night Scythe 215
Tomb Blades x 3 Shield Vanes, Nebuloscope, Particle Beamer 69
1184
My 750 list was minus a unit of 10 warriors, a ghost ark, 5 immortals and the scythe. (did not have it yet)
So my 750 list was only 662. I only lost the Immortals in all the 750 games I played. I always ran them towards an objective and they got overrun. That was my only unit I lost in probably four games. I always lost a tomb blade or two, but never the whole unit. I board wiped IG, Dark Eldar, Eldar and Chaos in those four games. The Eldar player and Dark Eldar player won the last two tournaments.
When we moved up to 1250 points it got much easier for me. I decided to not run my immortals separate and just charged with my whole army towards my opponent. I always went for the board wipe. Move flat out with my Ghost arks and send the scythe right at my enemy. Try to keep my lord close to reroll 1's or charge his HQ and the ghost arks behind to bring the warriors back. My other two units of ten warriors each would just foot slog up the field. Nobody made it to turn five. I have yet to face a CC army. My only concern is from someone who can tie me up in CC or massive horde armies. I played the same four people in 1250 games as I played in 750 and they all knew what I was bringing and tailored their armies to beat me, as the Necrons are seen as the best chance of winning the next tournament.
I quit playing Tau as most people do not want to play against them anymore. Two Riptides and three - six misslesides win almost every time. I guess I have a knack for picking cheese. I run Blood Angels, Tau and Necrons. I have been playing for twenty years and just like the fluff of the Blood Angels and Tau. I still run my destroyers as the old school necron warriors sitting on the hover bike looking things.
Ok, so Necrons pretty much wiping every other army off the board seems to be the story globally, not just here. Getting beaten by a new army before you figure out how to take them on is fine. However, getting wiped tells you that something is significantly stronger, and the amount of global wiping that seems to be going now seems to be a pretty good base to call them OP based on.
Sure, I can maybe tailor my army (and playing style) to have a better chance against them, but in a take all comers setting I don't think that's a fair comparison. How will I fair against all other armies by going MSU and spamming ObSec? Not too well I'll tell you. And I still will only have a very minor chance of winning/tieing against Decurion Crons.
If an army requires specific builds to even stand a fighting chance instead of being wiped when facing them then they are not very balanced.
I'll play some more until I speak further, but I think they are very OP.
Jancoran wrote: Objective Secured is minimized in power gamers minds because they like what the more elite units can do. It has everything to do with the pre-occupation certain competitive players have with "kill Ratios" and the like and nothing to do with logic because heres an inescapable reality, one that no amount of minimizing can delete:
If I keep a mobile unit off the board to start and alive to the end that is Objective Secured, then I only ever have to tie the rest of the objectives...which I can do later also.
So a General who understands the timing of his game better than he does kill ratios will constantly confound the elite players who are trying to out-muscle you.
Again, nobody is denying ObSec can have it's uses, but what you describe is relatively easy to counter with a variety of methods, and is highly variable in effectiveness, particularly with Random Game Length (and is precisely why RGL exists) and the way Maelstrom Missions only require you to hold to the end of your own turn. The game generally does a good job of making this tactic more a situational event than an opening plan. Can it work? Sure. Will it work against someone who's seen it before? Often no.
ObSec also isn't always necessarily needed for this to work either, especially if you only need to contest rather than hold.
That was a lot of words that didn't say anything. "relatively easy" and "variety of methods"? "Situational"? All minimizing vague words. Suggesting that it will "only work" once on someone is also confusing to me, because the opponent simply has no choice. if they have no obsec, they wont be contesting anything in Maelstrom either if my army is fast enough.
Look I get it if you want to have more "cool toys" on the table, but I assure you I burn people over and over that don't respect the importance of Objective Secured units. They're busy trying to kill me all game and I'm busy stealing their lunch. Lol.
Not that this has much to do with the Necron Codex except for in this aspect: A Living Tomb can eject TWO units of Warriors out of its bowels when it arrives. Lots of Obsec warriors sling shotting from one side of the board to the entirely other side of the board is pretty awesome. As a segue, I ask you to consider how good that is when the enemy doesn't have any Obsec and the necrons have it anywhere they want it.
Jancoran wrote: Objective Secured is minimized in power gamers minds because they like what the more elite units can do. It has everything to do with the pre-occupation certain competitive players have with "kill Ratios" and the like and nothing to do with logic because heres an inescapable reality, one that no amount of minimizing can delete:
If I keep a mobile unit off the board to start and alive to the end that is Objective Secured, then I only ever have to tie the rest of the objectives...which I can do later also.
So a General who understands the timing of his game better than he does kill ratios will constantly confound the elite players who are trying to out-muscle you.
Again, nobody is denying ObSec can have it's uses, but what you describe is relatively easy to counter with a variety of methods, and is highly variable in effectiveness, particularly with Random Game Length (and is precisely why RGL exists) and the way Maelstrom Missions only require you to hold to the end of your own turn. The game generally does a good job of making this tactic more a situational event than an opening plan. Can it work? Sure. Will it work against someone who's seen it before? Often no.
ObSec also isn't always necessarily needed for this to work either, especially if you only need to contest rather than hold.
There are methods of denying objSec which center around area-wise denying access to the objective.
Parking an obelisk or monolith or ghost ark or scarab swarm or warrior blob on top of an objective such that the opponents objsec can't get to the objective at end of game.
We treat objectives as impassible. So there's that. Rolling a million ton tank over something and hiding it makes no sense whatsoever but sure. if you have enough of them and can keep them alive then you can try. But its a non sequitor becaus doing that "effectively" has no bearing on whether the unit was obsec or not.
westiebestie wrote: Ok, so Necrons pretty much wiping every other army off the board seems to be the story globally, not just here. Getting beaten by a new army before you figure out how to take them on is fine. However, getting wiped tells you that something is significantly stronger, and the amount of global wiping that seems to be going now seems to be a pretty good base to call them OP based on.
Sure, I can maybe tailor my army (and playing style) to have a better chance against them, but in a take all comers setting I don't think that's a fair comparison. How will I fair against all other armies by going MSU and spamming ObSec? Not too well I'll tell you. And I still will only have a very minor chance of winning/tieing against Decurion Crons.
If an army requires specific builds to even stand a fighting chance instead of being wiped when facing them then they are not very balanced.
I'll play some more until I speak further, but I think they are very OP.
My Space Marine player doesn't know how to deal with my army now, and may resort to cheese just have a chance. My Dark Eldar friend has had a rough time with my AV 13 goodness before the codex dropped, so now he doesn't even know either. My girlfriend doesn't wanna play me. And my Daemons/CSM/Eldar player is feeling some of the pain as well, after I tabled his daemons.
That being said, I both love and hate this codex for that. I like to win, mind you. I don't resort to spamming or cheese combos or whatnot, but I enjoy having a strong army thats challenging for people to face. Now, good God. It might get to the point where I have to play Nids because people don't wanna fight Crons.
Give it time. adjusting to new things takes time. The Reanimation protocol going to 4+ is really beefy, but morale is their weakness. Attack them in close combat and force them to roll or use LD based attacks to conquer the unconquerable Necrons.
It has taken a REALLY long time for people to accept that to defeat Wave Spam you have to smash their hulls into the dirt in turn 2 with your fists. The same can be said of necrons. They arent terrible in melee but dedicated melee units should win against Necron Warriors. So have more dedicated melee would be my advice to the girlfriend.
...
Then I saw the codex for what it was it did change and as i play tested it (going through 5 matches since its release) my worst fears actually came to life. I started to feel like they made my army even stronger! I have been desperately looking for forums for other peoples opinions. So perhaps some of my experiences will help this out. For starters 2 weeks ago i fought some nids and marveled at my 10 lychguard with 1 overlord being deepstruck behind enemy lines. I boldly held my ground when the swarm lord charged me confident my new CC masters could defeat, combat had lasted a stunning 4 rounds before a victor was called. I had bested the swarm lord 3 times only causing him a total of 4 wounds (he also regained 2 from IWND) getting one lucky round off he downed 3 lychguard. my eyes quickly turned to horror as i now had to make a leadership test of 5 (negative 2 to leadership due to tyranidness...) he over ran me and did some had effectively finished off a very expensive unit. My other encounter of note was trying the canoptek harvest formation, fighting gray knights i could not believe how well things were working with 3++ and a 4 up RP on my wraiths. He had brought 2 dreadknights though and insta gibbed my spyders after teleporting in. Gauss was useful as always but couldn't really pack the punch I needed to bring him down^
...
The shadow in the warp rule (the -2 Ld) only applies to psykers, so there is no way to make it work on Necrons. Unless I'm missing some special rule the Swarmlord has.
Jancoran wrote: well I hear this stuff with every codex drop.
Give it time. adjusting to new things takes time. The Reanimation protocol going to 4+ is really beefy, but morale is their weakness. Attack them in close combat and force them to roll or use LD based attacks to conquer the unconquerable Necrons.
It has taken a REALLY long time for people to accept that to defeat Wave Spam you have to smash their hulls into the dirt in turn 2 with your fists. The same can be said of necrons. They arent terrible in melee but dedicated melee units should win against Necron Warriors. So have more dedicated melee would be my advice to the girlfriend.
You realize they got Ld 10 across the board right? There's litterally no army that's got better Ld than Necrons.
I mean, sure you could sweep them but since Necron warriors got the same cc power as tactical marines (bare the initiative), I really don't see how you're going to force Ld checks on them with significant negative modifiers.
Jancoran wrote: well I hear this stuff with every codex drop.
Give it time. adjusting to new things takes time. The Reanimation protocol going to 4+ is really beefy, but morale is their weakness. Attack them in close combat and force them to roll or use LD based attacks to conquer the unconquerable Necrons.
It has taken a REALLY long time for people to accept that to defeat Wave Spam you have to smash their hulls into the dirt in turn 2 with your fists. The same can be said of necrons. They arent terrible in melee but dedicated melee units should win against Necron Warriors. So have more dedicated melee would be my advice to the girlfriend.
There LD10 moral is a weakness?
At best the near only option for that would be the silly Eldar/DEldar Spook factory, trying to drop em down to ld6 and scare em off the board. and a few of there stronger options is straight fearless.
Jancoran wrote: Objective Secured is minimized in power gamers minds because they like what the more elite units can do. It has everything to do with the pre-occupation certain competitive players have with "kill Ratios" and the like and nothing to do with logic because heres an inescapable reality, one that no amount of minimizing can delete:
If I keep a mobile unit off the board to start and alive to the end that is Objective Secured, then I only ever have to tie the rest of the objectives...which I can do later also.
So a General who understands the timing of his game better than he does kill ratios will constantly confound the elite players who are trying to out-muscle you.
Again, nobody is denying ObSec can have it's uses, but what you describe is relatively easy to counter with a variety of methods, and is highly variable in effectiveness, particularly with Random Game Length (and is precisely why RGL exists) and the way Maelstrom Missions only require you to hold to the end of your own turn. The game generally does a good job of making this tactic more a situational event than an opening plan. Can it work? Sure. Will it work against someone who's seen it before? Often no.
ObSec also isn't always necessarily needed for this to work either, especially if you only need to contest rather than hold.
That was a lot of words that didn't say anything. "relatively easy" and "variety of methods"? "Situational"? All minimizing vague words. Suggesting that it will "only work" once on someone is also confusing to me, because the opponent simply has no choice. if they have no obsec, they wont be contesting anything in Maelstrom either if my army is fast enough.
Ok, lets go through this then.
Lets talk about the "variety of methods" of dealing with such a tactics.
The easiest is often simply putting enough of something on an objective that said unit can't get within 3" of that objective. Most infantry squads can do this, as can many tanks. This then means that you can't just swoop in and land near the objective freely to contest or take it, and have to dedicate resources to clearing it, often making that tactic far less effective.
Another is that such ObSec units usually tend to not be the hardiest or largest of units when fielded in this capacity. They'll be things like minimum sized Jetbike squads. The first time they come out, they can often be engaged and destroyed relatively easily. Likewise, Barrage weapons, something like a TFC or a Wyvern battery or Nightspinner, are typically pretty good at dealing with these guys while they're hiding. Often, it may not be possible to hide them for more than a turn or two, particularly on many tournament tables.
The situational part I thought I covered pretty well in my posts, but I guess i'll re-iterate. The usefulness depends highly on whether you're playing Eternal or Maesltrom missions, and on the way the objectives are being held. In Eternal War missions, ObSec only matters on the last turn, which is random. In either mission type, ObSec only matters if an objective is contested in the first place (many opponents may never try to contest or hold certain objectives), and will only swing the game occasionally (e.g. if an opponent is holding three objectives and you'd got none, having an ObSec jetbike unit take one on the last turn isn't going to change the outcome, you still only control 1 to their 2).
Hence why the Decurion and sub-formation bonuses, being "always on", are of far more consistent and notable value.
Since 7th's come out, I've only had ObSec win me 1 game, which otherwise would have been a tie, and I don't recall it losing me any over probably ~40 or so pickup games and four tournaments.
Look I get it if you want to have more "cool toys" on the table, but I assure you I burn people over and over that don't respect the importance of Objective Secured units. They're busy trying to kill me all game and I'm busy stealing their lunch. Lol.
Oh man, an ad-hominem attack and a veiled "L2P" comment, what a zinger!
Also, for the billionth time, not saying it doesn't have any utility, obviously it does and it's nice when it kicks in, but it's not as hugely critical as its made out to be.
Not that this has much to do with the Necron Codex except for in this aspect: A Living Tomb can eject TWO units of Warriors out of its bowels when it arrives. Lots of Obsec warriors sling shotting from one side of the board to the entirely other side of the board is pretty awesome. As a segue, I ask you to consider how good that is when the enemy doesn't have any Obsec and the necrons have it anywhere they want it.
If they're dumping that many Warriors *and* a gigantic Monolith onto an objective, I probably can't get within 3" to contest it anyway, particularly not without immediately losing whatever it was I sent there the next turn. Even if I had Obsec units, I could only contest, and unless that one objective is going to decide the game, my resources may be better put elsewhere.
Jancoran wrote: well I hear this stuff with every codex drop.
Give it time. adjusting to new things takes time. The Reanimation protocol going to 4+ is really beefy, but morale is their weakness. Attack them in close combat and force them to roll or use LD based attacks to conquer the unconquerable Necrons.
It has taken a REALLY long time for people to accept that to defeat Wave Spam you have to smash their hulls into the dirt in turn 2 with your fists. The same can be said of necrons. They arent terrible in melee but dedicated melee units should win against Necron Warriors. So have more dedicated melee would be my advice to the girlfriend.
There LD10 moral is a weakness?
At best the near only option for that would be the silly Eldar/DEldar Spook factory, trying to drop em down to ld6 and scare em off the board.
and a few of there stronger options is straight fearless.
DE alone can get it down pretty far, ld 7 i think and then the nova is a further -2. Throw in iyanden and harlies and you could get one unit down to ld 3. Too bad leadership negging armies cant work with space marines existing.
Jancoran wrote: well I hear this stuff with every codex drop.
Give it time. adjusting to new things takes time. The Reanimation protocol going to 4+ is really beefy, but morale is their weakness. Attack them in close combat and force them to roll or use LD based attacks to conquer the unconquerable Necrons.
Wait, you heard talk of OP-ness from the blood angels new codex? Or virtually any other 7e dex? Where? From who?
Also saying an army has a weakness to cc in this edition is like saying they have a 2m wide thermal exhaust port somewhere on something the size of a moon. From several games I've already recognized that actually getting a lot of cron models to leave the table essentially requires sweeping advances.
But if you play a decently balanced decurion with a couple minimum harvests to intercept quick cc bullies like I taught our local cron players to do, than that weakness is pretty much a non-issue.
The 7crons is the first book in a long time that I've been taken aback by just how beast they decided to make a book. It's been what? A couple years since eldar?
I think Trazyn the infinite is in disguise on the GW design team.
Jancoran wrote: well I hear this stuff with every codex drop.
Give it time. adjusting to new things takes time. The Reanimation protocol going to 4+ is really beefy, but morale is their weakness. Attack them in close combat and force them to roll or use LD based attacks to conquer the unconquerable Necrons.
It has taken a REALLY long time for people to accept that to defeat Wave Spam you have to smash their hulls into the dirt in turn 2 with your fists. The same can be said of necrons. They arent terrible in melee but dedicated melee units should win against Necron Warriors. So have more dedicated melee would be my advice to the girlfriend.
There LD10 moral is a weakness?
At best the near only option for that would be the silly Eldar/DEldar Spook factory, trying to drop em down to ld6 and scare em off the board.
and a few of there stronger options is straight fearless.
DE alone can get it down pretty far, ld 7 i think and then the nova is a further -2. Throw in iyanden and harlies and you could get one unit down to ld 3. Too bad leadership negging armies cant work with space marines existing.
Meh just PS them already
The negatives do work (most of em) its the secondary effects that dont. so you can totally tank shock some SM off the table.
One Daemon Prince to another, "They tell me these Necrons are OP, but I'm not seeing it"
thats cute, want me to make the same Pic with wraiths and every 7th edition codex? you know the ones that are actually written to be balanced?
that is until some bumbling idiot hiding behind the "GW development team" wrote this wonderfully screwed up mess.
Don't get me wrong its well written in the Internal Balance sense that nothing is really "useless" (this is truly why some Necron player don't want to admit it could be OP) however who ever wrote this went way overboard with the formation bonuses.
and now we're stuck in one situation in which either the books coming in the future are written to be like the other 7th books making the Necrons even more OP , or they write them like the Necron book and make the first 7th books worthless again for years to come.
I'm sorry I'm sick of hearing they're resilient but beatable. By who, the other poorly written armies that can and will spam a few good units? (Yes that Means things like Daemon Princes) or by someone who has to throw down a cheesy super friends list with St-D and Stompy Knights? just to have a chance to beat your normal lists.
FWIW I do feel bad for some Necron players because you all know the snubs will start coming soon and people will start turning games against you down or Bust out their Super Friends lists one of the 2.
Ugh...as this forum continues i draw further into the grimace I wont be able to play Necrons in a friendly manner anymore.
As a side note I will throw out everything that is a weakness in the Necron army that might help maybe give some hope that they are not horribly broken beyond all repair...
-Almost all vehicles are open topped and become very dead after a penetrating hit.
-Lack of 2 up armor saves for most units (Aside from HQs)(kind of mitigated by the fact they get RP).
-Lack of unit weapon diversity (I.E. no infantry melta options and almost no infantry flamer templates).
-No reliable ignores cover weapons. (Except things that have ordinance or flamer quality.)
-Lack of high strength low AP (Better with destroyers now, but still hard to kill MC's)
-No psyker powers what so ever (No summoning daemons, no invisibility, no biomancy)
-Very few fearless units (CCB lets you reroll failed morale test though within 12 inches).
-No eternal warrior (Thank the God Emperor)
-Poor initiative.
-Lack of reliable S: D (For those days that you really really hate the guy that brought 3 wraithknights.)
Now a list of pluses
-RP for almost all infantry in the army.
-Ignore crew shaken and stunned results (Not that these rolls come up often with open topped vehicles anyway)
-Almost every vehicle gets a jink save.
-Still very cheap reliable flyers for anti air.
-Wraiths are now sadly an auto take for how good they are....
-Gauss hurts everything from your toughest baneblade to your strongest Hierophant (Swiss army knife of 40k)
-Very cheap lords of war.
-Minimum of AV13 on front and side armor until a penetrating hit is suffered.
Feel free to give constructive criticism or add to anything i may have missed. (This is meant to be a helpful list of observations)
Meh.. There is no point in me discussing this further. Some of you have decided it's OP and nothing I am going to say is going to change that. Since I don't actually play against any of you, I'm going to quit wasting my time with this thread.
Dont forget the av13 that essentially make it nearly impossible pen at range.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
adamsouza wrote: Meh.. There is no point in me discussing this further. Some of you have decided it's OP and nothing I am going to say is going to change that. Since I don't actually play against any of you, I'm going to quit wasting my time with this thread.
So you really do not have an answer besides spend 5x more points to take out basic troops?
Jancoran wrote: well I hear this stuff with every codex drop.
Give it time. adjusting to new things takes time. The Reanimation protocol going to 4+ is really beefy, but morale is their weakness. Attack them in close combat and force them to roll or use LD based attacks to conquer the unconquerable Necrons.
It has taken a REALLY long time for people to accept that to defeat Wave Spam you have to smash their hulls into the dirt in turn 2 with your fists. The same can be said of necrons. They arent terrible in melee but dedicated melee units should win against Necron Warriors. So have more dedicated melee would be my advice to the girlfriend.
What are you talking about? We didn't hear it with Imperial Guard, we DEFINITELY didn't hear it with BA, SW was the only one where people felt a little overwhelmed with the TWC. Right now the actual concern with Necrons is that they are damn durable and their weakest units have the chance to hurt, this means they are effectively a chunk of steel you can slowly bludgeon an opponents list with.
Desubot wrote: Dont forget the av13 that essentially make it nearly impossible pen at range.
Ah thank you do not know how I missed that.
Also side note I LOVE NECRONS I really do hence why I am trying to find a way I can run them where it would still be fun for my opponent and give them a chance without completing steam rushing them off the table. I do not necessarily believe they are broken as a Football players knee on game day, but I do think they are pretty damn good.
If you want to handicap yourself just bring some C'Tan, they are shaping up to be complete garbage. The only part of the codex that is not internally balanced.
Tekron wrote: If you want to handicap yourself just bring some C'Tan, they are shaping up to be complete garbage. The only part of the codex that is not internally balanced.
Umm, they're not good when you waste 480 points on them. The Transcendant Ctan and nightbringer are still pretty killy IMO. I'm used Nightbringer in both games I've played, and he's performed well.
Anyone knows how to down them with IG, because we can't melee them, lack of low AP necron weapons doesn't matter much against our dudes and the no cover jetbikes scare me as much as NDKS with their flamers?
Makumba wrote: Anyone knows how to down them with IG, because we can't melee them, lack of low AP necron weapons doesn't matter much against our dudes and the no cover jetbikes scare me as much as NDKS with their flamers?
Shoot them accross the map with manticores
get locked into combat with big fearless bobs on objectives Wombo combo with other codexces
Auto cannons
Moo
Edit: Psyker support your blob (forwarning comes to mind)
Conscripts are a doom of crons. Unless they run flayed ones. But than you just concentrate your artillery on flayed ones and drown everything else in bodies.
Unkillable robots? They obliterate everything and just don't die? Send in the next wave, i say!
After 10 games with my Crons against DE, Nids and Orks I think it's safe to say this is the most fun I have had with the crons in a long time. While they are more resilient and all my opponents needed to rework their armies to eventually tie the game (Only the Nids beat me), the new book is not unstoppable. If anyone is having troubles I would be more than willing to give advice.
TheUnyielding wrote: After 10 games with my Crons against DE, Nids and Orks I think it's safe to say this is the most fun I have had with the crons in a long time. While they are more resilient and all my opponents needed to rework their armies to eventually tie the game (Only the Nids beat me), the new book is not unstoppable. If anyone is having troubles I would be more than willing to give advice.
As long as dice are in the game, no book is unstoppable. But the fact that one of our newbie players who started crons about 4 months ago and barely ever won is now on a 10 win streak (I built his decurion list for him) speaks volumes. In the games I've seen, he's still unfamiliar with some rules, and makes some pretty grievous tactical errors, but is still winning thanks to his army just being nigh immortal.
Thought about running a scatter laser spam list vs a double harvest decurion list in 1250 point game. My list ran 18 scatter lasers in it. So that 64 shots that hit on 3s (Averaging about 42 hits) and wounds on 3s (Average 28 wounds) Well with failed invul saves that would deal about 9 wounds before RP then only 4.5 after. So with that large volume of fire grand total of 2 dead and maybe 1 wound on the rest. So yeah thats not going to work.
Though about running a Triple Dreadknight spam list with Gatling Psilencers.
36 shots, 24 hits, 8 wounds. Meaning with instant death likely 2 dead after Invul and RP. So slightly better given that the Heavy Psycannons or Incinerators might do a wound.
In melee 6 wraiths vs 2 dread knights. Wraiths go first 18 attacks. 9 hits 4 normal wounds 1 rend. Likely 1-2 wounds on the dreads. Dreads Attack back 8 attacks. Roughly 6 hits. 5 wounds. Likely 1 dead wraith maybe 2 if lucky. This seems to be the most effective option near I can tell. Still you will likely lose 1 dread in a cc where you have a nearly 200 point advantage to break even on points.
Imperial Knight Castigator vs 6 wraiths. Wraiths go first. 18 attacks 9 hits 1.5 rend likely 1 pen but only a hullpoint. Assume that after pile in at I5 all wraiths are in base contact with with Castigator 6 automatic hits. 5 wounds. 1.66 failed invul saves. So likely 2 more deflag wounds. Looking again at 2 dead wraiths. Stomps well be more random in removing them but with a bit of luck is the most likely option.
30 man squad of sluga Boyz with a power claw nob. 87 attacks 43.5 hits. 7.25 wounds. After invul and RP 1.2 wounds so maybe 1 dead. Nob will add a little to that but to be perfectly honest you wont have all 30 boyz swinging back.
All in all. Wraiths by themselves while upper levels of good are certainly manageable and "fair".
Harvest formation should be banned period.
Decurion is Good no doubt about that but aside from Harvest is just in the Really strong realm of things rather then the can't be beat side.
Eh, the destroyer cult is pretty intensely good, and even just having a rec legion with 4+ RP reroll 1's near the overlord...the bonuses are just over the top.
Our group is considering banning decurions in standard pick up games until several more codices come out with their own version of it, at which point we'll take another look.
Makumba wrote: Anyone knows how to down them with IG, because we can't melee them, lack of low AP necron weapons doesn't matter much against our dudes and the no cover jetbikes scare me as much as NDKS with their flamers?
Shoot them accross the map with manticores
get locked into combat with big fearless bobs on objectives
Wombo combo with other codexces
Auto cannons
Moo
Edit: Psyker support your blob (forwarning comes to mind)
yeah I kind of stoped using psykers, because they were dieing too fast and stoped by oppossing armies having more power dice then me. I doubt I could cross the mid field alive with enough models to get stuck with necron in melee and that is after I got disembarked somehow.
Manticores don't realy work for me as my other 2 opponents are eldar and GK , ap does nothing to them.
I have 10 Grey Hunters, a RP and 3 long fangs, would does help anyway?
Intuitively, IG's answer to Necrons is massed artillery. Baslisks will ID Warriors and Immortals -- so will battle cannons for that matter. Sweet, sweet Manticores.
I feel sorry for people who want to play all-infantry armies though. I don't know how they can deal with this.
adamsouza wrote: LD is this stat that Space Marines essentially ignore, but it bites Necrons in the butt in the assault phase.
But when does that matter anymore? When you basically dont lose any models in CC.
Yes you do, you just need to be using the right models to assault with. Power weapons work wonders for taking away armor saves reducing them to only the RP save which makes them more likely to lose models, thus lose combat, thus break.
adamsouza wrote: LD is this stat that Space Marines essentially ignore, but it bites Necrons in the butt in the assault phase.
But when does that matter anymore? When you basically dont lose any models in CC.
Yes you do, you just need to be using the right models to assault with. Power weapons work wonders for taking away armor saves reducing them to only the RP save which makes them more likely to lose models, thus lose combat, thus break.
Well sure if you are sending in a unit that cost probably double what the necron unit would be. You are basically competing with a 4+ invul save. against WS4 so only half your attacks will most likely go through. then T4 which besides mauls (if you are kinda list tailoring) will take another half off that.
You basically need to deal 4 wounds and take non of your own to have a better than 50% chance for a sweep attempt.(GK Force weapons might have the best chance)
Alcibiades wrote: Intuitively, IG's answer to Necrons is massed artillery. Baslisks will ID Warriors and Immortals -- so will battle cannons for that matter. Sweet, sweet Manticores.
I feel sorry for people who want to play all-infantry armies though. I don't know how they can deal with this.
Sit on objectives and win hard. bonus points for cover, forewarning, invisibility
You realize they got Ld 10 across the board right? There's litterally no army that's got better Ld than Necrons.
I mean, sure you could sweep them but since Necron warriors got the same cc power as tactical marines (bare the initiative), I really don't see how you're going to force Ld checks on them with significant negative modifiers.
You answered your own question.
Sweeping them is exactly the answer. DEDICATED melee units, which is what I said to use more of, will sweep them. Psychic Shriek and other powers can work and of course the Hemlock Jetfighter for Eldar is an exceptionally good tool against them. The list of Dark Eldar nerfs you can get on someones ld is very good. And this is just one element you can use to tip the scales back in your favor.
Sometimes as in the Wave Serpents case, the answer just isn't shooting them.
Lets talk about the "variety of methods" of dealing with such a tactics.
The easiest is often simply putting enough of something on an objective that said unit can't get within 3" of that objective. Most infantry squads can do this, as can many tanks. This then means that you can't just swoop in and land near the objective freely to contest or take it, and have to dedicate resources to clearing it, often making that tactic far less effective.
Another is that such ObSec units usually tend to not be the hardiest or largest of units when fielded in this capacity. They'll be things like minimum sized Jetbike squads. The first time they come out, they can often be engaged and destroyed relatively easily. Likewise, Barrage weapons, something like a TFC or a Wyvern battery or Nightspinner, are typically pretty good at dealing with these guys while they're hiding. Often, it may not be possible to hide them for more than a turn or two, particularly on many tournament tables.
The situational part I thought I covered pretty well in my posts, but I guess i'll re-iterate. The usefulness depends highly on whether you're playing Eternal or Maesltrom missions, and on the way the objectives are being held. In Eternal War missions, ObSec only matters on the last turn, which is random. In either mission type, ObSec only matters if an objective is contested in the first place (many opponents may never try to contest or hold certain objectives), and will only swing the game occasionally (e.g. if an opponent is holding three objectives and you'd got none, having an ObSec jetbike unit take one on the last turn isn't going to change the outcome, you still only control 1 to their 2).
Hence why the Decurion and sub-formation bonuses, being "always on", are of far more consistent and notable value.
Since 7th's come out, I've only had ObSec win me 1 game, which otherwise would have been a tie, and I don't recall it losing me any over probably ~40 or so pickup games and four tournaments.
Also, for the billionth time, not saying it doesn't have any utility, obviously it does and it's nice when it kicks in, but it's not as hugely critical as its made out to be.
Now we're getting somewhere.
"Enough of something": So your idea is to block off the objective in a 360 degree arc, that no amount of shooting can penetrate on any side to allow a charge to within 3" iof the objective? May I humbly suggest that while this is certainly wise to do, it is also very unlikely to work unless the enemy is substantially weakened by this time in the game. Moreover, this also assumes that you are NOT weakeend to the point of not being able to cover it in 360 degrees. You see the problem right? Both of those assumptions is a LOT of assumption. Ironically you then point out the answer to this tactic yourself: Wyverns, Night Spinners, Shadow Weavers, and the miriad of barrage weaponry that can clear the way for units to get there with run moves, jetbike moves, Flat out moves and the list goes on. I really dont feel like this strategy, while its not a bad strategy at all, is an answer to my assertions. It doesnt address them well. I have a recnt batrep on my blog that kind of illustrates how ancillary units are used to clear paths for this exact purpose. So the Enough of Something idea is fine, but it still has to get lucky, because it doesn't take very many dead soldiers to clear a path especially with the "closest models dies first" mechanic, assuming you even have that many by the time it matters, usually at games end.
You assert that Obsec can be minimized by the fact that it often comes on "not he heartiest of chassis" so to speak. Yet I would point out to you that even a Tactical marine is a 3+ save and standing ones ground is the only prerequisite for taking the objecive. Assuming it will always be a 3 man Jetbike squad isn't really a fair assumption at all. Now if that happens to BE the case then you have something. But as a general concept, I dont think you can take away from Objective secured solely on the basis that they MIGHT be non-fearless three man quads. Come now. The Shard of Anaris can make just ONE such biker unit quite annoying and any fearless troop choice OR any troop choice with zealot, ATSKNF and so on is going to be more than up to the task if they can just hold out at games end.
In Maelstrom i disagree. Maelstrom missions are VERY loody affairs as a rule because you expose yourself to anger in ways and in turns you dont in Eternal War missions. An Objective secured force can pe-emptively move to positions (again as i mentioned in my previous post, if it is fast enough) and deny the opponent any chance at the objective point. Just by scattering they can rob the eenmy of precious points and the Maelstrom game really does hurt you if you have to wait a turn or two to get those objective points while the opponent freely scores them.
This isnt news. I think you are not accounting for someone who will pre-emptively take objective points. Aggression is rewarded big trime because its not just a killing game. dying doesnt mean as much in Maelstrom. ONE MAN in a units leftovers can score on you AND deny you again! Just one. Really consider the import of that truth. So the danger of losing 9 out of ten dudes is still worth it to score something and deny the enemy for a whole other round. It's a great trade off. Even when exposed by your position, only some of the enemy can get at you. Will it be enough? Well thats why we play the game isnt it?
You've won one game, you said, because of obsec. ive won many. null game.
Fun Fact: Being in melee does NOT prevent you from holding an objective. If an Objective Secured unit charges a non-Objective Sercured unit and manages to get within 3" of the objective they count as holding it as they can only be contested by another Objective Secured unit.
So bubble wrapping isn't a sure thing. Besides, it's always possible to pull your horde off the objective with a protracted assault and take the objective while you're busy.
Anything you think of can be countered. There is no "sure thing" to keep people from holding an Objective other than tabling.
adamsouza wrote: LD is this stat that Space Marines essentially ignore, but it bites Necrons in the butt in the assault phase.
But when does that matter anymore? When you basically dont lose any models in CC.
Yes you do, you just need to be using the right models to assault with. Power weapons work wonders for taking away armor saves reducing them to only the RP save which makes them more likely to lose models, thus lose combat, thus break.
Except that one of there best melee formations Canoptek harvest has 3++ saves....with T5.... and 2 Wounds each with a maximum size of 6 per squad.
adamsouza wrote: LD is this stat that Space Marines essentially ignore, but it bites Necrons in the butt in the assault phase.
But when does that matter anymore? When you basically dont lose any models in CC.
Yes you do, you just need to be using the right models to assault with. Power weapons work wonders for taking away armor saves reducing them to only the RP save which makes them more likely to lose models, thus lose combat, thus break.
Except that one of there best melee formations Canoptek harvest has 3++ saves....with T5.... and 2 Wounds each with a maximum size of 6 per squad.
The discussion wasn't how to beat Wraiths, it was beating (and then sweeping) other units.
And yes, beating Wraiths in hand is possible, if a slow slog.
You know how you kill durable units like Wraiths the fastest? Pour as many dice into them as possible all at once. They WILL fail saves.
ClockworkZion wrote: Fun Fact: Being in melee does NOT prevent you from holding an objective. If an Objective Secured unit charges a non-Objective Sercured unit and manages to get within 3" of the objective they count as holding it as they can only be contested by another Objective Secured unit.
So bubble wrapping isn't a sure thing. Besides, it's always possible to pull your horde off the objective with a protracted assault and take the objective while you're busy.
Anything you think of can be countered. There is no "sure thing" to keep people from holding an Objective other than tabling.
Scarab swarms can grow to a size where you cannot clear the area.
Monolith, Obelisk parking is a sure thing in many matchups.
Also, the Necron player can focus on killing the objSec units as top priority all game. Of course a list with tons of MSU can get around, which is why I think a heavy MSU list is a possible hard counter.
You know how you kill durable units like Wraiths the fastest? Pour as many dice into them as possible all at once. They WILL fail saves.
Well, that could be said about anything in the game. >.>
It's the same advice used to kill Hammernators, Plague Marines and everything else that has a high toughness low save going on (like many of the new Nid MCs). Just because it's durable doesn't mean you can't kill it, it just means you need to use target priority and approach the game in a manner beyond "I shot it with one unit, it didn't work, I quit."
You know how you kill durable units like Wraiths the fastest? Pour as many dice into them as possible all at once. They WILL fail saves.
Well, that could be said about anything in the game. >.>
It's the same advice used to kill Hammernators, Plague Marines and everything else that has a high toughness low save going on (like many of the new Nid MCs). Just because it's durable doesn't mean you can't kill it, it just means you need to use target priority and approach the game in a manner beyond "I shot it with one unit, it didn't work, I quit."
Agreed. Though, I feel bad for my friend. Most of his shooting was poured into my Warriors, and he managed only to kill a few, having some of them come back with a Ghost Ark on my turn. >.>
"Enough of something": So your idea is to block off the objective in a 360 degree arc, that no amount of shooting can penetrate on any side to allow a charge to within 3" iof the objective? May I humbly suggest that while this is certainly wise to do, it is also very unlikely to work unless the enemy is substantially weakened by this time in the game. Moreover, this also assumes that you are NOT weakeend to the point of not being able to cover it in 360 degrees.
It's one of several options you have, not the only one. That said, I did not say that it was immune to being penetrated, only that it requires an opponent to devote resources to doing so as opposed to being able to freely skip in and take it, which weakens the strength of the tactic that so often relies on being able to run in and take/contest things without devoting much in the way of effort to it.
Likewise, again, lots of vehicle & monstrous Creature units can "body block" rather well, preventing an opponent from getting within 3" simply through their physical size (or making it really awkward to try and find the sliver that's within 3" and not within an inch of the enemy) once you sit them on an objective.
You see the problem right? Both of those assumptions is a LOT of assumption. Ironically you then point out the answer to this tactic yourself: Wyverns, Night Spinners, Shadow Weavers, and the miriad of barrage weaponry that can clear the way for units to get there with run moves, jetbike moves, Flat out moves and the list goes on.
Absolutely you can, but again, this then removes much of the value of the "cheap mobile objective spoiler" in the first place, because again, it work best when you don't have to devote effort (or much effort) to supporting it. Otherwise often a more conventional unit if often of greater value as it can assist in clearing the objective.
You assert that Obsec can be minimized by the fact that it often comes on "not he heartiest of chassis" so to speak. Yet I would point out to you that even a Tactical marine is a 3+ save and standing ones ground is the only prerequisite for taking the objecive. Assuming it will always be a 3 man Jetbike squad isn't really a fair assumption at all.
it's the most common that I can recall encountering and reading about in the "cheap, mobile, kept in reserve/hiding" role, and usually the most effective given the tremendous speed. Hence why I went with that.
Now if that happens to BE the case then you have something. But as a general concept, I dont think you can take away from Objective secured solely on the basis that they MIGHT be non-fearless three man quads.
I'm not, but I was addressing the idea of the "cheap, mobile, kept in reserve/hiding" ObSec unit, which is exactly what these often are. Fearless is nice, but again, if the unit doesn't have a lot of "meat", it may be moot and dead in one round once it comes into view.
If we're talking heavier, beefier units, and Marines, they won't have quite the same ability to dash across the board to objectives the way the Jetbikes do, and because of their investment, often will have to spend game time contributing to fighting instead of just sitting on an objective. SM bikers are fast, but not always Troops, and are often employed in a front line role that sees them priority targeted anyway, while Jump Marines and Tac squads lack the same sort of speed (well, they lack everything compared to Bikes, but we'll that the overbuffed-bikers topic to another thread).
In Maelstrom i disagree. Maelstrom missions are VERY loody affairs as a rule because you expose yourself to anger in ways and in turns you dont in Eternal War missions. An Objective secured force can pe-emptively move to positions (again as i mentioned in my previous post, if it is fast enough) and deny the opponent any chance at the objective point. Just by scattering they can rob the eenmy of precious points and the Maelstrom game really does hurt you if you have to wait a turn or two to get those objective points while the opponent freely scores them.
They absolutely can, but this usually relies on speedy MSU, and that's not something Necrons do well with their units that could possibly gain Objective Secured.
This isnt news. I think you are not accounting for someone who will pre-emptively take objective points. Aggression is rewarded big trime because its not just a killing game. dying doesnt mean as much in Maelstrom. ONE MAN in a units leftovers can score on you AND deny you again! Just one. Really consider the import of that truth. So the danger of losing 9 out of ten dudes is still worth it to score something and deny the enemy for a whole other round. It's a great trade off. Even when exposed by your position, only some of the enemy can get at you. Will it be enough? Well thats why we play the game isnt it?
Yes, one guy left can make the difference. But that's a highly situational example, most of the time an opponent is going to do their damndest to kill off that one last guy and is usually successful. Can that pull through? Sure. I've had a few games where that has pulled through or worked against me in my 40k experiences. But they're memorable exceptions or games where both sides have been so savaged as to have almost nothing left anyway, or, more usually when we're talking about a lone survivor on an objective, the objectives in question weren't contested in the first place (as otherwise it's far less likely that that one model would be left alive), and thus ObSec would play no role.
Again, not saying that ObSec is useless, but that it's not the must-have ability it's sometimes made out to be, and it's not going to be the "downfall" of Decurion armies as was earlier asserted.
adamsouza wrote: LD is this stat that Space Marines essentially ignore, but it bites Necrons in the butt in the assault phase.
But when does that matter anymore? When you basically dont lose any models in CC.
Yes you do, you just need to be using the right models to assault with. Power weapons work wonders for taking away armor saves reducing them to only the RP save which makes them more likely to lose models, thus lose combat, thus break.
Except that one of there best melee formations Canoptek harvest has 3++ saves....with T5.... and 2 Wounds each with a maximum size of 6 per squad.
The discussion wasn't how to beat Wraiths, it was beating (and then sweeping) other units.
And yes, beating Wraiths in hand is possible, if a slow slog.
You know how you kill durable units like Wraiths the fastest? Pour as many dice into them as possible all at once. They WILL fail saves.
Those numbers are nearly impossible. well over 200 hits alone (not shots) over the course of a game sure. but when is anyone gona let you shoot at them for over 5 turns in a game?
You know how you kill durable units like Wraiths the fastest? Pour as many dice into them as possible all at once. They WILL fail saves.
Well, that could be said about anything in the game. >.>
It's the same advice used to kill Hammernators, Plague Marines and everything else that has a high toughness low save going on (like many of the new Nid MCs). Just because it's durable doesn't mean you can't kill it, it just means you need to use target priority and approach the game in a manner beyond "I shot it with one unit, it didn't work, I quit."
Agreed. Though, I feel bad for my friend. Most of his shooting was poured into my Warriors, and he managed only to kill a few, having some of them come back with a Ghost Ark on my turn. >.>
Templates and pie plates are a better weapon to use on Warriors. Most of those are AP4 or better and will help drop them quicker which means less saves.
Against Wraiths the answer just comes down to dice. Lots and lots of dice. That and lots and lots of dice into the Spyder.
I almost thing Necrons make Psilencers worth looking at because of the ID. Sure it's not much, but if even one wound gets through that's a model dropped immediately. Same for Force Weapons.
Deathwing Knights also look like a decent choice to smash Wraiths since you can huddle for T5 and boost your strength 1x a game.
You know how you kill durable units like Wraiths the fastest? Pour as many dice into them as possible all at once. They WILL fail saves.
Those numbers are nearly impossible. well over 200 hits alone (not shots) over the course of a game sure. but when is anyone gona let you shoot at them for over 5 turns in a game?
200 hits from what kind of unit and what weapons? Citation needed for your math there.
TheUnyielding wrote: After 10 games with my Crons against DE, Nids and Orks I think it's safe to say this is the most fun I have had with the crons in a long time. While they are more resilient and all my opponents needed to rework their armies to eventually tie the game (Only the Nids beat me), the new book is not unstoppable. If anyone is having troubles I would be more than willing to give advice.
Ok..... So ... Your defenition of not unstoppable is that after 10 games the best all but ONE of your opponents (who were "adjusting their lists" aka list tailoring for your army) could hope to muster was a tie.......boy that sounds like a lot of fun to play against.
You know how you kill durable units like Wraiths the fastest? Pour as many dice into them as possible all at once. They WILL fail saves.
Those numbers are nearly impossible. well over 200 hits alone (not shots) over the course of a game sure. but when is anyone gona let you shoot at them for over 5 turns in a game?
200 hits from what kind of unit and what weapons? Citation needed for your math there.
Sorry Clarification, im talking about a unit of 6 with Harvest (which is what i face quite a bit and if you are already in a decrion you will at least have one unit of 3 in that formation more than likely.) But math, st3 1 0.166666667 0.166666667 0.333333333 0.055555556 36 0.5 0.027777778 72 st4 1 0.333333333 0.333333333 0.333333333 0.111111111 18 0.5 0.055555556 36 st5 1 0.5 0.5 0.333333333 0.166666667 12 0.5 0.083333333 24 st6 1 0.666666667 0.666666667 0.333333333 0.222222222 9 0.5 0.111111111 18 st7 1 0.833333333 0.833333333 0.333333333 0.277777778 7.2 0.5 0.138888889 14.4 st8 1 0.833333333 0.833333333 0.333333333 0.277777778 7.2 0.5 0.138888889 14.4 st9 1 0.833333333 0.833333333 0.333333333 0.277777778 7.2 0.5 0.138888889 14.4 st10 1 0.833333333 0.833333333 0.333333333 0.277777778 3.6 0.666666667 0.185185185 5.4
Bolds are numbers need to kill 1 the second bold is with decirions
Times that by whatever the unit size would be normally. im seeing a lot of full squads. others might see min 3 Edit: So not really 200 but still a dumb amount of hits alone.
TheUnyielding wrote: After 10 games with my Crons against DE, Nids and Orks I think it's safe to say this is the most fun I have had with the crons in a long time. While they are more resilient and all my opponents needed to rework their armies to eventually tie the game (Only the Nids beat me), the new book is not unstoppable. If anyone is having troubles I would be more than willing to give advice.
Ok..... So ... Your defenition of not unstoppable is that after 10 games the best all but ONE of your opponents (who were "adjusting their lists" aka list tailoring for your army) could hope to muster was a tie.......boy that sounds like a lot of fun to play against.
This was my thoughts exactly. This would make it sound like there's a major balance issue.
adamsouza wrote: LD is this stat that Space Marines essentially ignore, but it bites Necrons in the butt in the assault phase.
But when does that matter anymore? When you basically dont lose any models in CC.
Yes you do, you just need to be using the right models to assault with. Power weapons work wonders for taking away armor saves reducing them to only the RP save which makes them more likely to lose models, thus lose combat, thus break.
Except that one of there best melee formations Canoptek harvest has 3++ saves....with T5.... and 2 Wounds each with a maximum size of 6 per squad.
The discussion wasn't how to beat Wraiths, it was beating (and then sweeping) other units.
And yes, beating Wraiths in hand is possible, if a slow slog.
You know how you kill durable units like Wraiths the fastest? Pour as many dice into them as possible all at once. They WILL fail saves.
The Harvest formation is just so exceptional its mind boggling. The whole formation clocks in at nearly 370 points so about the same cost as a Imperial Knight. However the volume of fire it can absorb is substantially more. Ex. To kill a full squad of Wraiths you need to inflict 12 wounds that are unsaved by the Inv save or RP save. On average Using a STR 10 weapon hitting on 4s. (Insta death/Double Toughness lowers the RP to a 5+ and you only have to deal 1 w per wraith) you would have to fire on average of about 72 shots to kill that unit with str 10 weapons.
With STR 9-7(Ap doesn't matter vs these things at all) You will need on average 180 shots to kill a 6-man unit.
WIth STR 6 you will need 216 shots.
With STR 5 you will need 288 shots
With STR 4 you will need 432 shots.
With STR 2-3 you will need 864 Shots
Sorry but I don't think even massed gunline with guard can deal with these things.
Generally wont be at low AP under st7 so this be it without armor saves, this is assuming no cover because raisins.
Number of hits, second number with 4+++
Still a lot better as even with a 5+ cover the Spyder isn't nearly as durable and in some cases (marker lights, orders, Vindicare Assassins) ignore cover leaving it with only the 4+.
And that's not looking into D weapons and void templates.
Generally wont be at low AP under st7 so this be it without armor saves, this is assuming no cover because raisins.
Number of hits, second number with 4+++
Still a lot better as even with a 5+ cover the Spyder isn't nearly as durable and in some cases (marker lights, orders, Vindicare Assassins) ignore cover leaving it with only the 4+.
And that's not looking into D weapons and void templates.
Quite true though these are "Hits" not humber of shots. you will need to multiple them by your BS calculations. but with the decrion 4+++ it still very very hard unless you really tailor.
Generally wont be at low AP under st7 so this be it without armor saves, this is assuming no cover because raisins.
Number of hits, second number with 4+++
Still a lot better as even with a 5+ cover the Spyder isn't nearly as durable and in some cases (marker lights, orders, Vindicare Assassins) ignore cover leaving it with only the 4+.
And that's not looking into D weapons and void templates.
Quite true though these are "Hits" not humber of shots. you will need to multiple them by your BS calculations. but with the decrion 4+++ it still very very hard unless you really tailor.
I see it less as tailoring and more as adapting to your meta. We have answers to these in codexes we just need to look at changing our armies a little to include those safety nets.
So basically we are still talking about needing to fire your entire army of points or dang near it to hurt a few hundred points. Mean while the rest of the necron army is killing you untouched? Lol that sure isnt my plan.
BlackArmour wrote: So basically we are still talking about needing to fire your entire army of points or dang near it to hurt a few hundred points. Mean while the rest of the necron army is killing you untouched? Lol that sure isnt my plan.
Yeah, its not that bad. But what is your plan to deal with them?
Kangodo wrote: With a low BS/WS and a low # of attacks to balance it out.
I've never heard anyone complain that Spyders are too strong.
Tervigon and other Tyranid's crap MCs cost 170+ points for those WS/BS of 3.
150 points nets you 9 T6 3+ wounds on a MC unit
With 1 shooting attack, which is an additional 10 points, otherwise they poop scarabs. And they suck in melee compared to other MCs. They have additional options in wargear which are useful, but again, costs more points.
KurtAngle2 wrote: Tervigon and other Tyranid's crap MCs cost 170+ points for those WS/BS of 3.
150 points nets you 9 T6 3+ wounds on a MC unit
And for those 120+ points you get:
-Shooting Attack
-Double the wounds and attacks
-Counter Attack-aura
-Psyker
-Termagant-spawn-spam
-Synapse
-Way better upgrades.
It's not a good thing to compare two specific models, there is a lot of context involved that you shouldn't ignore.
Kangodo wrote: With a low BS/WS and a low # of attacks to balance it out.
I've never heard anyone complain that Spyders are too strong.
Tervigon and other Tyranid's crap MCs cost 170+ points for those WS/BS of 3.
150 points nets you 9 T6 3+ wounds on a MC unit
But the Harvest can only take a single Spyder.
Very debatable. Popular opinion is that is how to play it, but RAW supports adding additional spyders via the options on the army entry list. Check YMDC for rules debate.
Kangodo wrote: With a low BS/WS and a low # of attacks to balance it out.
I've never heard anyone complain that Spyders are too strong.
Tervigon and other Tyranid's crap MCs cost 170+ points for those WS/BS of 3.
150 points nets you 9 T6 3+ wounds on a MC unit
But the Harvest can only take a single Spyder.
Very debatable. Popular opinion is that is how to play it, but RAW supports adding additional spyders via the options on the army entry list. Check YMDC for rules debate.
Scarabs says "1 unit of Scarabs", Wraiths say "1 unit of Wraiths" but the Spyder says "1 Spyder".
So unless GW erratas it so we can take a unit of Spyders, right now I don't know anyone who'd argue that it'd "1 unit of Spyders".
ClockworkZion wrote: Fun Fact: Being in melee does NOT prevent you from holding an objective. If an Objective Secured unit charges a non-Objective Sercured unit and manages to get within 3" of the objective they count as holding it as they can only be contested by another Objective Secured unit..
KurtAngle2 wrote: Tervigon and other Tyranid's crap MCs cost 170+ points for those WS/BS of 3.
150 points nets you 9 T6 3+ wounds on a MC unit
And for those 120+ points you get:
-Shooting Attack
-Double the wounds and attacks
-Counter Attack-aura
-Psyker
-Termagant-spawn-spam
-Synapse
-Way better upgrades.
It's not a good thing to compare two specific models, there is a lot of context involved that you shouldn't ignore.
- S5 AP 4 Assault 4 18" with AB 3 is not that good, especially when half of those hit
- 1 Extra Attack and 3 extra Wounds for 145 extra points, not really comparable
- Only works for Termagants, next
- Lv.1 Psyker with a single roll on Tyranids table, hope you get Catalyst or Paroxysm otherwise sucks
- Termagants spawn that stops on any double. Oh, and every termagant spawned is worth 4 points whereas each scarab base is 20 points
- Synapse and if you die, EACH TERMAGANT UNIT withing 12" takes 3D6 HITS, wounding on 4+ with no Cover Saves allowed (only the 6+ t-shirt save).
- COSTLY Upgrades. Each Bio-Artefact is HORRENDOUSLY overcosted and nobody would EVER take one of those (seriously, 40 point for +6" Synapse? YA KIDDING!?)
Shift the numbers up, though easier, its hardly a sure thing.
Edit: It IS 1 spider.
Ultimately speaking the Wraiths dont really need the spider to be super functional. they will still be able to nullify your biggest threats (besides Knights and GoI stars) and still take a substantial amount of good shooting to deal with outside of CC. and in CC only the most dedicated unit will be able to deal with them.
"Enough of something": So your idea is to block off the objective in a 360 degree arc, that no amount of shooting can penetrate on any side to allow a charge to within 3" iof the objective? May I humbly suggest that while this is certainly wise to do, it is also very unlikely to work unless the enemy is substantially weakened by this time in the game. Moreover, this also assumes that you are NOT weakeend to the point of not being able to cover it in 360 degrees.
It's one of several options you have, not the only one. That said, I did not say that it was immune to being penetrated, only that it requires an opponent to devote resources to doing so as opposed to being able to freely skip in and take it, which weakens the strength of the tactic that so often relies on being able to run in and take/contest things without devoting much in the way of effort to it.
Likewise, again, lots of vehicle & monstrous Creature units can "body block" rather well, preventing an opponent from getting within 3" simply through their physical size (or making it really awkward to try and find the sliver that's within 3" and not within an inch of the enemy) once you sit them on an objective.
You see the problem right? Both of those assumptions is a LOT of assumption. Ironically you then point out the answer to this tactic yourself: Wyverns, Night Spinners, Shadow Weavers, and the miriad of barrage weaponry that can clear the way for units to get there with run moves, jetbike moves, Flat out moves and the list goes on.
Absolutely you can, but again, this then removes much of the value of the "cheap mobile objective spoiler" in the first place, because again, it work best when you don't have to devote effort (or much effort) to supporting it. Otherwise often a more conventional unit if often of greater value as it can assist in clearing the objective.
You assert that Obsec can be minimized by the fact that it often comes on "not he heartiest of chassis" so to speak. Yet I would point out to you that even a Tactical marine is a 3+ save and standing ones ground is the only prerequisite for taking the objecive. Assuming it will always be a 3 man Jetbike squad isn't really a fair assumption at all.
it's the most common that I can recall encountering and reading about in the "cheap, mobile, kept in reserve/hiding" role, and usually the most effective given the tremendous speed. Hence why I went with that.
Now if that happens to BE the case then you have something. But as a general concept, I dont think you can take away from Objective secured solely on the basis that they MIGHT be non-fearless three man quads.
I'm not, but I was addressing the idea of the "cheap, mobile, kept in reserve/hiding" ObSec unit, which is exactly what these often are. Fearless is nice, but again, if the unit doesn't have a lot of "meat", it may be moot and dead in one round once it comes into view.
If we're talking heavier, beefier units, and Marines, they won't have quite the same ability to dash across the board to objectives the way the Jetbikes do, and because of their investment, often will have to spend game time contributing to fighting instead of just sitting on an objective. SM bikers are fast, but not always Troops, and are often employed in a front line role that sees them priority targeted anyway, while Jump Marines and Tac squads lack the same sort of speed (well, they lack everything compared to Bikes, but we'll that the overbuffed-bikers topic to another thread).
In Maelstrom i disagree. Maelstrom missions are VERY loody affairs as a rule because you expose yourself to anger in ways and in turns you dont in Eternal War missions. An Objective secured force can pe-emptively move to positions (again as i mentioned in my previous post, if it is fast enough) and deny the opponent any chance at the objective point. Just by scattering they can rob the eenmy of precious points and the Maelstrom game really does hurt you if you have to wait a turn or two to get those objective points while the opponent freely scores them.
They absolutely can, but this usually relies on speedy MSU, and that's not something Necrons do well with their units that could possibly gain Objective Secured.
This isnt news. I think you are not accounting for someone who will pre-emptively take objective points. Aggression is rewarded big trime because its not just a killing game. dying doesnt mean as much in Maelstrom. ONE MAN in a units leftovers can score on you AND deny you again! Just one. Really consider the import of that truth. So the danger of losing 9 out of ten dudes is still worth it to score something and deny the enemy for a whole other round. It's a great trade off. Even when exposed by your position, only some of the enemy can get at you. Will it be enough? Well thats why we play the game isnt it?
Yes, one guy left can make the difference. But that's a highly situational example, most of the time an opponent is going to do their damndest to kill off that one last guy and is usually successful. Can that pull through? Sure. I've had a few games where that has pulled through or worked against me in my 40k experiences. But they're memorable exceptions or games where both sides have been so savaged as to have almost nothing left anyway, or, more usually when we're talking about a lone survivor on an objective, the objectives in question weren't contested in the first place (as otherwise it's far less likely that that one model would be left alive), and thus ObSec would play no role.
Again, not saying that ObSec is useless, but that it's not the must-have ability it's sometimes made out to be, and it's not going to be the "downfall" of Decurion armies as was earlier asserted.
Well it appears here that you have conceded to me on most of these points, followed by a statement such as "but...". I think it doesn't matter. The point is that Objective secured handles all the concerns you mentioned. Even if you body block, consolidation moves happen. Even though this or that "reduces the value" of this or that: so what? Thats called a meta change. Adjust and be on with it.
Also, i never made a statement that having no objective secured was THE downfall. I said I will absolutely make you pay for it. You will absolutely feel the lack of it against me. I don't see any way that this wouldn't happen. I don't mind someone going without. in fact i encourage it...in my enemies. But in Eternal War and Maelstrom both, those who have objective secured units and who apply them at games end are going to make your journey an uphill one. maybe you still win but it will be in spite of the lack, not because of it.
Shift the numbers up, though easier, its hardly a sure thing.
Edit: It IS 1 spider.
Ultimately speaking the Wraiths dont really need the spider to be super functional. they will still be able to nullify your biggest threats (besides Knights and GoI stars) and still take a substantial amount of good shooting to deal with outside of CC. and in CC only the most dedicated unit will be able to deal with them.
Too true regarding the Spyder, but the point I've been trying to make is that the army is hardly "unbeatable" just because of the formation and even the formation has weakpoints. Heck even if you can't beat the Wraiths in melee tarpitting them for a long time decreases their effectiveness and allows the rest of your army to function.
Kangodo wrote: With a low BS/WS and a low # of attacks to balance it out.
I've never heard anyone complain that Spyders are too strong.
Tervigon and other Tyranid's crap MCs cost 170+ points for those WS/BS of 3.
150 points nets you 9 T6 3+ wounds on a MC unit
But the Harvest can only take a single Spyder.
Very debatable. Popular opinion is that is how to play it, but RAW supports adding additional spyders via the options on the army entry list. Check YMDC for rules debate.
Said thread was closed with no side actually winning that debate. RAW support is debatable, not a sure-thing.
Shift the numbers up, though easier, its hardly a sure thing.
Edit: It IS 1 spider.
Ultimately speaking the Wraiths dont really need the spider to be super functional. they will still be able to nullify your biggest threats (besides Knights and GoI stars) and still take a substantial amount of good shooting to deal with outside of CC. and in CC only the most dedicated unit will be able to deal with them.
Too true regarding the Spyder, but the point I've been trying to make is that the army is hardly "unbeatable" just because of the formation and even the formation has weakpoints. Heck even if you can't beat the Wraiths in melee tarpitting them for a long time decreases their effectiveness and allows the rest of your army to function.
While true you can "win games" against them, it is Nearly impossible to kill them (table them) in the majority of there lists. (asides from obvious troll lists like all air or whatnot) the amount of damage needed to get rid of the ENTIRE army is insane. no army is this durable through there entire book.
and ether way they have become incredibly boring to play. (My turn, i shoot all da things, you only remove 3 models....sigh your turn)
BlackArmour wrote: So basically we are still talking about needing to fire your entire army of points or dang near it to hurt a few hundred points. Mean while the rest of the necron army is killing you untouched? Lol that sure isnt my plan.
Yeah, its not that bad. But what is your plan to deal with them?
Die quickly and move on to the next game :-D. In all seriousness i rarely play games under 2000 points and normally more, with that in mind my BAs have a chance to alpha strike before necrons can kill me then spend my time playing hit n run on wraiths. My plans below 2000 points have yet to be tested so cant say theyll work. Ill figure that out soon enough.
Well it appears here that you have conceded to me on most of these points, followed by a statement such as "but...". I think it doesn't matter.
You seem to be seeking validation from any sort of concession, rather than looking at the actual points I'm trying to make. I noted the issues in my earlier post and simply reiterated many of them again. For instance, in my earlier post I did note that you can clear enough of a unit to get in within 3" if it's body blocking, but that said effort removed a lot of the utility of the MSU ObSec unit since they're often meant to be somewhat unsupported spoiler units.
The point is that Objective secured handles all the concerns you mentioned. Even if you body block, consolidation moves happen. Even though this or that "reduces the value" of this or that: so what?
The point was simply that ObSec isn't the mighty strategic weakness some were making it out to be and there's a number of ways to mitigate it. Many, if not most players, will not have huge numbers of speedy MSU ObSec units. If you build an army specifically around exploiting ObSec, it's much more powerful sure, but for most armies, they're not built around utilizing ObSec like that, and thus it's doesn't play the gigantic role some think it does.
Thats called a meta change. Adjust and be on with it.
Oh look, another unnecessary L2P comment...you seem to keep thinking I'm trying to argue that ObSec is worthless, and I'm not saying that.
Also, i never made a statement that having no objective secured was THE downfall.
And my original post on the entire matter was in response to another poster directly calling it such, which is primarily all I've been arguing against.
You will absolutely feel the lack of it against me. I don't see any way that this wouldn't happen. I don't mind someone going without. in fact i encourage it...in my enemies. But in Eternal War and Maelstrom both, those who have objective secured units and who apply them at games end are going to make your journey an uphill one. maybe you still win but it will be in spite of the lack, not because of it.
Well I guess here is where we differ. I've never found it to be a consistently reliable mechanic that routinely makes or breaks games, and looking at a number of Battle Reports, far more often than not, it doesn't play a dominant role in determining the victor in the majority of games. It can, but isn't indispensable.
I'll leave off on this particular discussion point here.
Shift the numbers up, though easier, its hardly a sure thing.
Edit: It IS 1 spider.
Ultimately speaking the Wraiths dont really need the spider to be super functional. they will still be able to nullify your biggest threats (besides Knights and GoI stars) and still take a substantial amount of good shooting to deal with outside of CC. and in CC only the most dedicated unit will be able to deal with them.
Too true regarding the Spyder, but the point I've been trying to make is that the army is hardly "unbeatable" just because of the formation and even the formation has weakpoints. Heck even if you can't beat the Wraiths in melee tarpitting them for a long time decreases their effectiveness and allows the rest of your army to function.
While true you can "win games" against them, it is Nearly impossible to kill them (table them) in the majority of there lists. (asides from obvious troll lists like all air or whatnot) the amount of damage needed to get rid of the ENTIRE army is insane. no army is this durable through there entire book.
and ether way they have become incredibly boring to play. (My turn, i shoot all da things, you only remove 3 models....sigh your turn)
Yes, Crons ARE durable, but they don't have many teeth. Keep those they have (in their list because the Reclamation Legion pulls a fair amount of points to start and fills their army pretty quick) tied up (or manage to kill them) and the rest of the army isn't that threatening.
Also make sure you know their rules, like the fact that only the Reclamation Legion gets the re-roll 1's on RP if 12" of the Overlord.
Shift the numbers up, though easier, its hardly a sure thing.
Edit: It IS 1 spider.
Ultimately speaking the Wraiths dont really need the spider to be super functional. they will still be able to nullify your biggest threats (besides Knights and GoI stars) and still take a substantial amount of good shooting to deal with outside of CC. and in CC only the most dedicated unit will be able to deal with them.
Too true regarding the Spyder, but the point I've been trying to make is that the army is hardly "unbeatable" just because of the formation and even the formation has weakpoints. Heck even if you can't beat the Wraiths in melee tarpitting them for a long time decreases their effectiveness and allows the rest of your army to function.
While true you can "win games" against them, it is Nearly impossible to kill them (table them) in the majority of there lists. (asides from obvious troll lists like all air or whatnot) the amount of damage needed to get rid of the ENTIRE army is insane. no army is this durable through there entire book.
and ether way they have become incredibly boring to play. (My turn, i shoot all da things, you only remove 3 models....sigh your turn)
Yes, Crons ARE durable, but they don't have many teeth. Keep those they have (in their list because the Reclamation Legion pulls a fair amount of points to start and fills their army pretty quick) tied up (or manage to kill them) and the rest of the army isn't that threatening.
Also make sure you know their rules, like the fact that only the Reclamation Legion gets the re-roll 1's on RP if 12" of the Overlord.
...... Im not sure if the teeth thing is serious or not, heavy desroyers, st10 large blasts, gauss weapons that can hurt the toughest vehicle or MC, tesla guns that can cause tons of hits and well wraiths just laugh at the no teeth thing.
Shift the numbers up, though easier, its hardly a sure thing.
Edit: It IS 1 spider.
Ultimately speaking the Wraiths dont really need the spider to be super functional. they will still be able to nullify your biggest threats (besides Knights and GoI stars) and still take a substantial amount of good shooting to deal with outside of CC. and in CC only the most dedicated unit will be able to deal with them.
Too true regarding the Spyder, but the point I've been trying to make is that the army is hardly "unbeatable" just because of the formation and even the formation has weakpoints. Heck even if you can't beat the Wraiths in melee tarpitting them for a long time decreases their effectiveness and allows the rest of your army to function.
While true you can "win games" against them, it is Nearly impossible to kill them (table them) in the majority of there lists. (asides from obvious troll lists like all air or whatnot) the amount of damage needed to get rid of the ENTIRE army is insane. no army is this durable through there entire book.
and ether way they have become incredibly boring to play. (My turn, i shoot all da things, you only remove 3 models....sigh your turn)
Yes, Crons ARE durable, but they don't have many teeth. Keep those they have (in their list because the Reclamation Legion pulls a fair amount of points to start and fills their army pretty quick) tied up (or manage to kill them) and the rest of the army isn't that threatening.
Also make sure you know their rules, like the fact that only the Reclamation Legion gets the re-roll 1's on RP if 12" of the Overlord.
...... Im not sure if the teeth thing is serious or not, heavy desroyers, st10 large blasts, gauss weapons that can hurt the toughest vehicle or MC, tesla guns that can cause tons of hits and well wraiths just laugh at the no teeth thing.
Yes you can list everything in the book but how much can you actually put into a list 1.5k list? 1850? 2000?
Just because you can name it doesn't mean it'll all be there at the same time.
Well to be fair they are basiclly better marines than marines.
a Butt load of bolters that can wound past 8, and strip HPs like no ones business,
I forget what those tomb blade speeders things have but it ignores cover which is excellent for anti pathfinders and troops.
The Wraiths are basically in close combat assault cannons which are nothing to laugh at.
Im not sure what else we will see but in generally besides from Grav weapons they do seem to have plenty of painful basic weapons. (above we will probably see quite a lot of at least)
I dont know how to feel about the tesla yet. i dont feel the jinking nerf will hurt it as bad as people thing, though the price point change might be otherwise (Abarge)
Then you could say that about everybook. Most lists will put wraiths in and they have pleanty of teeth. So do their basic troops, who are durable enough to keep dishing it out While most armies that arent fast have to worry about the wraiths
BlackArmour wrote: So basically we are still talking about needing to fire your entire army of points or dang near it to hurt a few hundred points. Mean while the rest of the necron army is killing you untouched? Lol that sure isnt my plan.
Yeah, its not that bad. But what is your plan to deal with them?
Die quickly and move on to the next game :-D. In all seriousness i rarely play games under 2000 points and normally more, with that in mind my BAs have a chance to alpha strike before necrons can kill me then spend my time playing hit n run on wraiths. My plans below 2000 points have yet to be tested so cant say theyll work. Ill figure that out soon enough.
Blood Angels are pretty strong from what I've seen. You shouldn't have too much of an issue.
BlackArmour wrote: Then you could say that about everybook. Most lists will put wraiths in and they have pleanty of teeth. So do their basic troops, who are durable enough to keep dishing it out While most armies that arent fast have to worry about the wraiths
Exactly. The Decurion really doesn't do much except give the Necrons the staying power and feel that they've always had in the lore but never had on the table. They aren't unstoppable and they have weaknesses and crying about how good they are at beating your current list is silly.
I mean seriously what happened to the mentality of trying to keep a generally balanced list and learning to take an opponent apart by leveraging your strengths against that codex's weaknesses?
Or did we just outright give that up when 6th hit?
Kangodo wrote: With a low BS/WS and a low # of attacks to balance it out.
I've never heard anyone complain that Spyders are too strong.
Tervigon and other Tyranid's crap MCs cost 170+ points for those WS/BS of 3.
150 points nets you 9 T6 3+ wounds on a MC unit
But the Harvest can only take a single Spyder.
Very debatable. Popular opinion is that is how to play it, but RAW supports adding additional spyders via the options on the army entry list. Check YMDC for rules debate.
Scarabs says "1 unit of Scarabs", Wraiths say "1 unit of Wraiths" but the Spyder says "1 Spyder".
So unless GW erratas it so we can take a unit of Spyders, right now I don't know anyone who'd argue that it'd "1 unit of Spyders".
To briefly sum up the issues involved . . .
The core problem is neither side can prove that it is "1 [unit of canoptek spyders of unit composition] canoptek spyder " or "1 canoptek spyder [model]." The formation rules are very specific in that they always refer to units and army entry lists and the hardcopy BRB even specifies the page of the army entry list.
So, basically strict RAW is that it is a unit of spyders we are talking about since the formation rules specify that and there is nothing solid overriding that specification.
People want to see the popular RAI (that it is 1 canoptek spyder model) as RAW because the new necrons are strong and both necron players and non-necron players are welcoming the nerf.
However, those who want to call that RAW are being wholly inconsistent and applying a RAW approach falsely. They can no more prove that it is "1 canoptek spyder [model]" than the other side can prove "1 [unit of canoptek] spyders" and in the case of nothing able to be advanced logically of substance, the specificity that we are always dealing with units when we are dealing with formations that is found quite conclusively and unequivocally in the formation rules wins out.
Exactly. The Decurion really doesn't do much except give the Necrons the staying power and feel that they've always had in the lore but never had on the table. ?
BlackArmour wrote: So basically we are still talking about needing to fire your entire army of points or dang near it to hurt a few hundred points. Mean while the rest of the necron army is killing you untouched? Lol that sure isnt my plan.
Yeah, its not that bad. But what is your plan to deal with them?
Die quickly and move on to the next game :-D. In all seriousness i rarely play games under 2000 points and normally more, with that in mind my BAs have a chance to alpha strike before necrons can kill me then spend my time playing hit n run on wraiths. My plans below 2000 points have yet to be tested so cant say theyll work. Ill figure that out soon enough.
Blood Angels are pretty strong from what I've seen. You shouldn't have too much of an issue.
In large point games i agree, alpha striking units combined with pod dropping 2x or 4x melta per 5 man ASM squad to kill vevehicles. Also with the angels fury also being obj sec. Yea i agree. The problem is that tactic doesnt work really in sub 2000 point games Due to it being too much of a tax.
I will agree with clockwork in regards to they do not have that many teeth consider this....To field a reclamation legion with no upgrades using the bare minimum model requirement cost 479 points that is with literal no upgrades no war scythes or ignore cover or even a resurrection orb. Now in order to field that Strength 10 AP 1 weapon you mentioned as in the Doomsday ark using the Decurian detachment you require a bare minimum of of 410 points If you are playing a 1000 point game that is almost your entire army right there. Is there survivability annoying? Absolutely and me being a necron player I even find it annoying, but the fact remains you are paying a little bit to field units using the Decurian detachment. Granted the canoptek harvest formation only requires 230 for no upgrades and that is 3 T6 S6 3++ and 4+++ models still pretty damn good I will admit.
If we really want to talk about Necron cheese that tomb citadel is still a thing from forgeworld....Throw your decurian detachment on there and now every model on the formation gains a 3++ against shooting attacks re rolls reanimation protocols of 1 as long as they are on the tomb citadel all for the low low low price of 300 points. That being said this is shenanigans no doubt about it and flipping the table here would probably be the only way to make sure you don't ever lose to this monstrosity ever again.
Sabor wrote: I will agree with clockwork in regards to they do not have that many teeth consider this....To field a reclamation legion with no upgrades using the bare minimum model requirement cost 479 points that is with literal no upgrades no war scythes or ignore cover or even a resurrection orb. Now in order to field that Strength 10 AP 1 weapon you mentioned as in the Doomsday ark using the Decurian detachment you require a bare minimum of of 410 points If you are playing a 1000 point game that is almost your entire army right there. Is there survivability annoying? Absolutely and me being a necron player I even find it annoying, but the fact remains you are paying a little bit to field units using the Decurian detachment. Granted the canoptek harvest formation only requires 230 for no upgrades and that is 3 T6 S6 3++ and 4+++ models still pretty damn good I will admit.
Im pretty sure the Doom ark isnt really all that and a bag of chips considering Vindicators are not seen too special ether (though i personally like em (both of them))
What about the destroyer cult? i remember them being decent now.
As well as the stalker one being able to buff around quite a bit for everyone.
Edit: It seems worth it run the duran duran formation with two douche canoes for the warriors to make a strong base of objective holders, two min Harvests for Anti threat threat and general annoyance, and a D cult for the hammer.
BlackArmour wrote: Then you could say that about everybook. Most lists will put wraiths in and they have pleanty of teeth. So do their basic troops, who are durable enough to keep dishing it out While most armies that arent fast have to worry about the wraiths
Exactly. The Decurion really doesn't do much except give the Necrons the staying power and feel that they've always had in the lore but never had on the table. They aren't unstoppable and they have weaknesses and crying about how good they are at beating your current list is silly.
I mean seriously what happened to the mentality of trying to keep a generally balanced list and learning to take an opponent apart by leveraging your strengths against that codex's weaknesses?
Or did we just outright give that up when 6th hit?
The problem is that they really don't have a defined weakness. Previous editions they lacked a truly capable CC unit that was reasonably priced. They now have a pretty severely under costed one that can easily stand up to double its points cost. Before you could deny them there RP by focus firing there units until there were all gone. Pretty much all their downsides are gone now.
Now if you think they have weaknesses then please explain to the rest of the class how you would counter them? Cause right now they are an army that is just a bit too durrable.
Im pretty sure the Doom ark isnt really all that and a bag of chips considering Vindicators are not seen too special ether (though i personally like em (both of them))
What about the destroyer cult? i remember them being decent now.
As well as the stalker one being able to buff around quite a bit for everyone.
I agree doomsday ark is not really all that special (though i love fielding it) but sure let me crunch some numbers. The destroyer cult requires a minimum of 470 points to use (you have to take destroyers in units of 3 to field this). The Judicator battalion being slightly better requiring a minimum of 405 points to field (keep in mind this is with no upgrades). So if you wish to field 1 triarch stalker using the decurian detachment you have to take the reclamation legion which was 479 then another 405. I like how GW made it so we can't take a single squad of one unit without taking another squad of something else however it puts a more real restriction on the army without actually forcing it.
Im pretty sure the Doom ark isnt really all that and a bag of chips considering Vindicators are not seen too special ether (though i personally like em (both of them))
What about the destroyer cult? i remember them being decent now.
As well as the stalker one being able to buff around quite a bit for everyone.
I agree doomsday ark is not really all that special (though i love fielding it) but sure let me crunch some numbers. The destroyer cult requires a minimum of 470 points to use (you have to take destroyers in units of 3 to field this). The Judicator battalion being slightly better requiring a minimum of 405 points to field (keep in mind this is with no upgrades). So if you wish to field 1 triarch stalker using the decurian detachment you have to take the reclamation legion which was 479 then another 405. I like how GW made it so we can't take a single squad of one unit without taking another squad of something else however it puts a more real restriction on the army without actually forcing it.
I am completely okay with having to bring other things, because it gives my army a more fluffy feel, and the benefits are pretty cool as well. Like, I only have 3 Destroyers currently, but I want 6 more so I can run a Destroyer Cult. Seems pretty legit to me.
BlackArmour wrote: Then you could say that about everybook. Most lists will put wraiths in and they have pleanty of teeth. So do their basic troops, who are durable enough to keep dishing it out While most armies that arent fast have to worry about the wraiths
Exactly. The Decurion really doesn't do much except give the Necrons the staying power and feel that they've always had in the lore but never had on the table. They aren't unstoppable and they have weaknesses and crying about how good they are at beating your current list is silly.
I mean seriously what happened to the mentality of trying to keep a generally balanced list and learning to take an opponent apart by leveraging your strengths against that codex's weaknesses?
Or did we just outright give that up when 6th hit?
The problem is that they really don't have a defined weakness. Previous editions they lacked a truly capable CC unit that was reasonably priced. They now have a pretty severely under costed one that can easily stand up to double its points cost. Before you could deny them there RP by focus firing there units until there were all gone. Pretty much all their downsides are gone now.
Now if you think they have weaknesses then please explain to the rest of the class how you would counter them? Cause right now they are an army that is just a bit too durrable.
You can still beat them in CC, you just need to dedicate either an actually CC unit or work at it longer to make sure it happens. Just because they don't fold like Tau do (who can be much better at shooting than Necrons) when you go to punch them doesn't mean that it isn't still a weakness.
The army can be beaten, we just need to stop assuming that when the meta shifts we shouldn't have to.
BlackArmour wrote: Then you could say that about everybook. Most lists will put wraiths in and they have pleanty of teeth. So do their basic troops, who are durable enough to keep dishing it out While most armies that arent fast have to worry about the wraiths
Exactly. The Decurion really doesn't do much except give the Necrons the staying power and feel that they've always had in the lore but never had on the table. They aren't unstoppable and they have weaknesses and crying about how good they are at beating your current list is silly.
I mean seriously what happened to the mentality of trying to keep a generally balanced list and learning to take an opponent apart by leveraging your strengths against that codex's weaknesses?
Or did we just outright give that up when 6th hit?
The problem is that they really don't have a defined weakness. Previous editions they lacked a truly capable CC unit that was reasonably priced. They now have a pretty severely under costed one that can easily stand up to double its points cost. Before you could deny them there RP by focus firing there units until there were all gone. Pretty much all their downsides are gone now.
Now if you think they have weaknesses then please explain to the rest of the class how you would counter them? Cause right now they are an army that is just a bit too durrable.
You can still beat them in CC, you just need to dedicate either an actually CC unit or work at it longer to make sure it happens. Just because they don't fold like Tau do (who can be much better at shooting than Necrons) when you go to punch them doesn't mean that it isn't still a weakness.
The army can be beaten, we just need to stop assuming that when the meta shifts we shouldn't have to.
Do you want me to show you the number of how a 500+ point Bike command squad fairs vs Wraiths. Or better yet you pick the cc unit.
Im pretty sure the Doom ark isnt really all that and a bag of chips considering Vindicators are not seen too special ether (though i personally like em (both of them))
What about the destroyer cult? i remember them being decent now.
As well as the stalker one being able to buff around quite a bit for everyone.
I agree doomsday ark is not really all that special (though i love fielding it) but sure let me crunch some numbers. The destroyer cult requires a minimum of 470 points to use (you have to take destroyers in units of 3 to field this). The Judicator battalion being slightly better requiring a minimum of 405 points to field (keep in mind this is with no upgrades). So if you wish to field 1 triarch stalker using the decurian detachment you have to take the reclamation legion which was 479 then another 405. I like how GW made it so we can't take a single squad of one unit without taking another squad of something else however it puts a more real restriction on the army without actually forcing it.
So if its similar to the last edition (i dont have the new book) then its about 540 to get 9 Heavy Gauss cannons in a JSJ unit with multi wounds and Res protection Sounds Very promising as a hammer units
As well at sub 1000 points there is always the option to play as a normal Cad and they are still fairly strong over all.
BlackArmour wrote: Then you could say that about everybook. Most lists will put wraiths in and they have pleanty of teeth. So do their basic troops, who are durable enough to keep dishing it out While most armies that arent fast have to worry about the wraiths
Exactly. The Decurion really doesn't do much except give the Necrons the staying power and feel that they've always had in the lore but never had on the table. They aren't unstoppable and they have weaknesses and crying about how good they are at beating your current list is silly.
I mean seriously what happened to the mentality of trying to keep a generally balanced list and learning to take an opponent apart by leveraging your strengths against that codex's weaknesses?
Or did we just outright give that up when 6th hit?
The problem is that they really don't have a defined weakness. Previous editions they lacked a truly capable CC unit that was reasonably priced. They now have a pretty severely under costed one that can easily stand up to double its points cost. Before you could deny them there RP by focus firing there units until there were all gone. Pretty much all their downsides are gone now.
Now if you think they have weaknesses then please explain to the rest of the class how you would counter them? Cause right now they are an army that is just a bit too durrable.
You can still beat them in CC, you just need to dedicate either an actually CC unit or work at it longer to make sure it happens. Just because they don't fold like Tau do (who can be much better at shooting than Necrons) when you go to punch them doesn't mean that it isn't still a weakness.
The army can be beaten, we just need to stop assuming that when the meta shifts we shouldn't have to.
Do you want me to show you the number of how a 500+ point Bike command squad fairs vs Wraiths. Or better yet you pick the cc unit.
Everyone seems to be missing the point, we're already at the cost of a DEDICATED CLOSE COMBAT still struggling with killing a TROOP.
You can still beat them in CC, you just need to dedicate either an actually CC unit or work at it longer to make sure it happens. Just because they don't fold like Tau do (who can be much better at shooting than Necrons) when you go to punch them doesn't mean that it isn't still a weakness.
The army can be beaten, we just need to stop assuming that when the meta shifts we shouldn't have to.
Unfortunately for me i dont really want to have to buy GK just to get mass force weapons to deal with wraiths or warriors.
As well what General purpose CC units do regular Marine players have?
Im pretty sure the Doom ark isnt really all that and a bag of chips considering Vindicators are not seen too special ether (though i personally like em (both of them))
What about the destroyer cult? i remember them being decent now.
As well as the stalker one being able to buff around quite a bit for everyone.
I agree doomsday ark is not really all that special (though i love fielding it) but sure let me crunch some numbers. The destroyer cult requires a minimum of 470 points to use (you have to take destroyers in units of 3 to field this). The Judicator battalion being slightly better requiring a minimum of 405 points to field (keep in mind this is with no upgrades). So if you wish to field 1 triarch stalker using the decurian detachment you have to take the reclamation legion which was 479 then another 405. I like how GW made it so we can't take a single squad of one unit without taking another squad of something else however it puts a more real restriction on the army without actually forcing it.
So if its similar to the last edition (i dont have the new book) then its about 540 to get 9 Heavy Gauss cannons in a JSJ unit with multi wounds and Res protection Sounds Very promising as a hammer units
As well at sub 1000 points there is always the option to play as a normal Cad and they are still fairly strong over all.
They actually got slightly changed, heavy destroyers are now only 50 points, but you can only field one per destroyer squad. However you can take a single unit of them as a separate unit in addition to the base 3 destroyers and destroyer lord. So that equates to an additional 30 points for the base 3 units to get 3 strength 9 Ap2 shots or an extra 150 to field 3 of them as there own squad.
If anyone else has any other questions keep them coming!
BlackArmour wrote: Then you could say that about everybook. Most lists will put wraiths in and they have pleanty of teeth. So do their basic troops, who are durable enough to keep dishing it out While most armies that arent fast have to worry about the wraiths
Exactly. The Decurion really doesn't do much except give the Necrons the staying power and feel that they've always had in the lore but never had on the table. They aren't unstoppable and they have weaknesses and crying about how good they are at beating your current list is silly.
I mean seriously what happened to the mentality of trying to keep a generally balanced list and learning to take an opponent apart by leveraging your strengths against that codex's weaknesses?
Or did we just outright give that up when 6th hit?
The problem is that they really don't have a defined weakness. Previous editions they lacked a truly capable CC unit that was reasonably priced. They now have a pretty severely under costed one that can easily stand up to double its points cost. Before you could deny them there RP by focus firing there units until there were all gone. Pretty much all their downsides are gone now.
Now if you think they have weaknesses then please explain to the rest of the class how you would counter them? Cause right now they are an army that is just a bit too durrable.
You can still beat them in CC, you just need to dedicate either an actually CC unit or work at it longer to make sure it happens. Just because they don't fold like Tau do (who can be much better at shooting than Necrons) when you go to punch them doesn't mean that it isn't still a weakness.
The army can be beaten, we just need to stop assuming that when the meta shifts we shouldn't have to.
Do you want me to show you the number of how a 500+ point Bike command squad fairs vs Wraiths. Or better yet you pick the cc unit.
I've killed Wraiths in CC last week. I can even tell you what I was using:
Jacobus
Priest (Power Maul, Litanies of Faith)
3 Crusaders
4 Death Cult Assassins
1 Arco-Flagellant
1 Rhino
Total 310
But I can do you one better, I can make it even cheaper by replacing Jacobus (whose biggest benefit for the squad is that he gives it Counter-Attack) with a cheaper Priest
Priest (Power Maul, Litanies of Faith)
Priest (Power Maul, Melta Bomb)
3 Crusaders
4 Death Cult Assassins
1 Arco-Flagellant
1 Rhino
Total 255
Squad re-rolls all hits during the first round of combat (Hatred from Zealot), and gets to re-roll all to-wound rolls and saves (War Hymns). Durability comes from the squad being majority WS5 (Arco-Flagellant and Death Cults) and the majority of wounds get pushed to the Crusaders (Look Out Sir on a 2+ helps) who get a re-rollable 3++.
So that squad I took killed 2 Wraiths (the first died to my Exorcist's shooting on Turn 1 before he got RP) and 120 points of Scarabs over 4 player turns of combat (with my opponent charging me) before the Necron Overlord on a command barge finally showed and broke the squad.
So yeah, it can be done. If you're done crying about how it's impossible we can move on and be productive with our lives.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Quickjager wrote: Everyone seems to be missing the point, we're already at the cost of a DEDICATED CLOSE COMBAT still struggling with killing a TROOP.
You can sweep them with less. Any wounds that you get in there brings them below Ld10 increases your chances of sweeping. You only really need 2-3 to die in the melee to sweep. Basically Terminators wouldn't be the best options to engage Warriors (since they can't sweep) but it can be done fairly easily.
Also I'm thinking that Thousand Sons might have a place in a CSM army finally because that AP3 means the models only getting a RP save.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Desubot wrote: As well what General purpose CC units do regular Marine players have?
BlackArmour wrote: Then you could say that about everybook. Most lists will put wraiths in and they have pleanty of teeth. So do their basic troops, who are durable enough to keep dishing it out While most armies that arent fast have to worry about the wraiths
Exactly. The Decurion really doesn't do much except give the Necrons the staying power and feel that they've always had in the lore but never had on the table. They aren't unstoppable and they have weaknesses and crying about how good they are at beating your current list is silly.
I mean seriously what happened to the mentality of trying to keep a generally balanced list and learning to take an opponent apart by leveraging your strengths against that codex's weaknesses?
Or did we just outright give that up when 6th hit?
The problem is that they really don't have a defined weakness. Previous editions they lacked a truly capable CC unit that was reasonably priced. They now have a pretty severely under costed one that can easily stand up to double its points cost. Before you could deny them there RP by focus firing there units until there were all gone. Pretty much all their downsides are gone now.
Now if you think they have weaknesses then please explain to the rest of the class how you would counter them? Cause right now they are an army that is just a bit too durrable.
You can still beat them in CC, you just need to dedicate either an actually CC unit or work at it longer to make sure it happens. Just because they don't fold like Tau do (who can be much better at shooting than Necrons) when you go to punch them doesn't mean that it isn't still a weakness.
The army can be beaten, we just need to stop assuming that when the meta shifts we shouldn't have to.
Do you want me to show you the number of how a 500+ point Bike command squad fairs vs Wraiths. Or better yet you pick the cc unit.
I've killed Wraiths in CC last week. I can even tell you what I was using:
Jacobus
Priest (Power Maul, Litanies of Faith)
3 Crusaders
4 Death Cult Assassins
1 Arco-Flagellant
1 Rhino
Total 310
But I can do you one better, I can make it even cheaper by replacing Jacobus (whose biggest benefit for the squad is that he gives it Counter-Attack) with a cheaper Priest
Priest (Power Maul, Litanies of Faith)
Priest (Power Maul, Melta Bomb)
3 Crusaders
4 Death Cult Assassins
1 Arco-Flagellant
1 Rhino
Total 255
Squad re-rolls all hits during the first round of combat (Hatred from Zealot), and gets to re-roll all to-wound rolls and saves (War Hymns). Durability comes from the squad being majority WS5 (Arco-Flagellant and Death Cults) and the majority of wounds get pushed to the Crusaders (Look Out Sir on a 2+ helps) who get a re-rollable 3++.
So that squad I took killed 2 Wraiths (the first died to my Exorcist's shooting on Turn 1 before he got RP) and 120 points of Scarabs over 4 player turns of combat (with my opponent charging me) before the Necron Overlord on a command barge finally showed and broke the squad.
So yeah, it can be done. If you're done crying about how it's impossible we can move on and be productive with our lives.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Quickjager wrote: Everyone seems to be missing the point, we're already at the cost of a DEDICATED CLOSE COMBAT still struggling with killing a TROOP.
You can sweep them with less. Any wounds that you get in there brings them below Ld10 increases your chances of sweeping. You only really need 2-3 to die in the melee to sweep. Basically Terminators wouldn't be the best options to engage Warriors (since they can't sweep) but it can be done fairly easily.
Also I'm thinking that Thousand Sons might have a place in a CSM army finally because that AP3 means the models only getting a RP save.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Desubot wrote: As well what General purpose CC units do regular Marine players have?
Hammernators.
Lets break those odds down why don't we.
1st Round of combat:
Init 5
Wraiths:
18 STR 6 attacks
9 hits
8.5 Wounds:
You will dump the wound on your crusders and likely lose all 3.
4 Death Cult assassins.
16 attacks
Round up and say 15 hits:
Round up and say 8 wounds:
1.3 wounds after saves
Priest
3 attacks
2.25 Hits
1.875 Wounds
.3 wounds after saves
Arco-Flagellant
5 attacks
4.4 hits
3.3 Wounds
.55 wounds after saves
Jacobus
5 Attacks:
3.75 hit
2 wounds
.33 wounds
Grand total: wounds after saves 2.48
Congrats on the first round of combat you got close to a stalemate. Unfotunately in the next round you don't have all your rerolls. And your still using a more expensive unit to ultimately lose.
ClockworkZion wrote: It also fails to account for Death Cults being Initiative 6.
FFS, if you're going to try to lie to me do it right.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Desubot wrote: Dont forget the priests ability to allow rerolls to wounds or reroll saves.
With 2 Priests you get both as the War Hymns are per Priest. It's fecking magic.
And re-rolling all hits during the first round of combat too.
Ok I missed the re-roll Saves as well as thought the DCA where Init 5 not 6. My mistake
However I did calculate the rerolls to hit and wound in.
Hmm was going to say your odds are only 58% chance of success for a war hymn but litanies makes it moot. Hmm
Definitely a solid CC unit. The rerollable 3++ is very nice. Yeah that could do it.
Only issue I see is that I will stop 1 squad of wraiths not multiple as it needs special characters and relics but deffinately a good start to counters.
ClockworkZion wrote: It also fails to account for Death Cults being Initiative 6.
FFS, if you're going to try to lie to me do it right.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Desubot wrote: Dont forget the priests ability to allow rerolls to wounds or reroll saves.
With 2 Priests you get both as the War Hymns are per Priest. It's fecking magic.
And re-rolling all hits during the first round of combat too.
Ok I missed the re-roll Saves as well as thought the DCA where Init 5 not 6. My mistake
However I did calculate the rerolls to hit and wound in.
Hmm was going to say your odds are only 58% chance of success for a war hymn but litanies makes it moot. Hmm
Definitely a solid CC unit. The rerollable 3++ is very nice. Yeah that could do it.
Only issue I see is that I will stop 1 squad of wraiths not multiple as it needs special characters and relics but deffinately a good start to counters.
Thanks for pointing it out.
Considering we pointed out the problem with running large numbers of Wraiths in the Decurion: namely how many points it runs. And the Battle Conclave runs less than you have to pay to run Wraiths.
And you can easily take two of these squads (one with Jacobus the other with Litanies and both with a generic priest as backup) for still less than the Harvest formations will run.
And I know it'll do it, because I did it.
It's a very strong CC unit despite being T3/S3 (which is it's biggest setback) and if it couldn't handle Wraiths I'd be pointing out why Wraiths are "totes bs". But they aren't. They're a good CC unit, but they're on part with other CC units in my book and their biggest boon is they're more durable to shooting than we're used to. I honestly feel that if people sat down with their books and their armies they could figure out something to counter, or at minimum, tarpit Wraiths enough to allow the rest of the army effective handle other threats appropriately.
Basically if you're having problems with Wraiths there are a few possibilities:
1. You're being cheated. Make sure you know how the Harvest is supposed to work.
2. Reevaluate what you're using to deal with the unit and consider other alternatives and how you can deal with them. You may have the right tools but not employing them properly.
3. Considering going back to the drawing board on your army or your tactics because you're doing something wrong.
Also, unless GW says otherwise, Wraiths go at I1 when charging into terrain (just like all the other beasts). Use that to your advantage.
.
situation in which either the books coming in the future are written to be like the other 7th books making the Necrons even more 
