Unless the rules for the Shadowseer, Death Jester, Masque and Enigmas turn out to be some level of absolutely absurd, that is.

If you bring Harlequins, you need your opponent to have:

-No high toughness Death Star units (wraith guards, spawn, Bikers, Grotesques, whatever) and no Monstrous creatures (wraithknights, Riptides, Dreadknights) because everything's gotta be REALLY scared of S3/4 AP - melee attacks.

-NO Superheavies, because harlies rely on some incredibly piddly anti tank options in terms of volume of fire. A IK would probably take three turns to shoot down with a full 2000pt harlequin army

-No flyers, because anti-air options don't exist. Or flying MCs for that matter. That's okay those aren't common.

-No ignores cover. Because all the vehicles foot infantry and bikes rely pretty heavily on cover saves.

-No invisibility, because it makes your uber high WS pointless. But nobody takes that power anyway.

They just seem like an army of everything that is the absolute worst stuff to take in the game right now. I get that you're supposed to make up their weaknesses with Eldar and DE, but in what situation would I not just want Dire Avengers in a WS or Kabalites in a Raider over harlequins? The only armies I can think of that wouldn't have to specifically try to construct a list for the harlies to stand a chance against are guard and sisters.

Sometimes I wonder, when they come out with the Necron rules and the Harlequin rules back to back, does anyone at GW play test anything? Or even talk to each other?

You're missing the point of the Harlie dex. It's not to make a competent force, it's to force Eldar players to buy the Harlie dex if they want to field Harlequins in their army when the new Eldar codex hits.

Its a cool army, with nice wargear and quirky rules. Along with beautiful models. No it isnt uber competitive, but its cool.

- Dont the Kisses have rending?

- I'm pretty sure there's a lot of fusion pistols the Harlies can pack.

- true

- I'm pretty sure the flip belts give inv. saves, though crappy ones.

- invisibility is at most cast on 1 deathstar unit every 1500+ points army in general.

IMO harlies are no worse off than Codex: LotD or Codex: Militarum Tempestus

-They have one single decent strength AP2 attack. So you're going to charge your 20 point apiece models into an opponent that will absolutely slaughter them to land five attacks that have a 50% chance of wounding?

The trouble is, any time you take their "quirky" wargear, you're always going to be wasting A) your basic S3 attacks or B) your 1-2 super special awesome attacks.

Even the uber powerful super awesome death assassin model throws S4 AP- attacks unless he rolls sixes. The back cover of the magazine shows him leaping out at a Riptide-a model it would take him approximately five rounds in melee to kill.

-Fusion pistols make for a 25 pt T3 model with a 5++. They have half the range of a real melta gun for the same price.

Tiny bit of mathammer: a base harlequin and a space marine with a bolter are identical in points. On the charge, the space marine causes almost twice the amount of wounds on average than the harlequin causes to the space marine.

They don't even have the little things either. They can't take CAD formations: no HQs. We don't even know if they get objective secured. The only model halfway durable enough to be a decent warlord A) can't be joined by any other model and B) Gets NO warlord trait if he's chosen. So your opponent gets free slay the warlord to go with his first blood from any of your 10/10/10 open topped HP2 vehicles.

Not only did they not bother to give harlequins any anti air, anti MCs, anti high T, or anti horde options...they didn't bother to give them an HQ.

as others have said, they are meant to ally.

Play them alone in games of 1000 points or less and they will be a blast.

 Melcavuk wrote:
Its a cool army, with nice wargear and quirky rules. Along with beautiful models. No it isnt uber competitive, but its cool.

"Uber competitive"

Unless your opponent is walking power armored infantry down the field at you (drop pods would pretty much be a death sentence, a melta TAC squad with a Stormwind in the pod would blow away a Starweaver and the troupe inside with no trouble) you don't stand any chance.

It's not even like it can't handle the top tier armies. It can't handle basic armies that have been out of the competitive meta forever. It can't handle green tide. It can't handle wyches in venoms. It can't handle Tacs in drop pods OR rhinos. It can't handle any kind of daemons, hilariously, because army wide fearless and invuln saves leaves their special rules and weapons worthless (which I find hilarious, as they're supposed to be the anti-daemon Eldar).

Maybe they're for fun rather than winning?

Curious if you're fielding the army with only with harlequins on foot with no transports?

An actual Harlequin army, with what we know, has their bikes to deal with MC's, high toughness deathstars, and/or medium/heavy vehicles (depending on the equipment). The transport for harlies does a bang up job against any infantry of any toughness with any armor save(thanks Shuriken Cannons). The infantry itself is going to be able to pick it's combats. Generally speaking you throw 1-2 caress into a unit and maybe 1-2 pistols and call it a day. And then you gear the heavy support for what you're lacking.

Granted, it's a limited codex so it's going to have limited options. But it does have options and that's before you add in the two main character models that are likely a solid support for the army.

TL;DR - It's to early to tell but they have a lot of the tools they need. Also, it's really meant as an allied codex similar to LoTD and Militarum Tempestus and to a lesser extent Grey Knights.

I'm gonna hold off judgment until I've seen the codex, but so far they look laughably bad.

It will be interesting to see how the Death Jester comes out. I hope he has some sort of Skyfire option. I agree the army needs anti-air.

FYI - if you roll 1 6 on the to wound roll for a Harlequin's Kiss, you will insta-gib that Wraithknight/Riptide/Carnifex. And a unit of Harlequins packing 5 embraces will do 5D3 S6 auto-hitting HoW hits to an invisible unit. So some of these concerns are only concerns if you take the Harlequins stock with no wargear.

I agree the Fusion Pistols are... not good, but they could have some limited potential if Harlequins get access to a webway portal for no-scatter deep striking.

Also, keep in mind that it appears the Shadowseer can roll on Sanctic. Hopefully, she will suffer no extra perils a la Grey Knights. Sanctic includes a number of powers (gate of infinite, sanctuary, hammerhand) which are particularly useful to Harlequins. It remains to be seen if the Shadowseer will be any good, but it is probably not a good idea to write them off without seeing her stats.

Nah, I was thinking they'd be fielded with Overpriced Venoms (tm).

Their poor bikes and voidweavers have to handle every vehicle , MC, and any units with T > 4, while the harlies fight...

What can a unit of harlies with 1-2 special weapons and maybe a neuron pistol or two fight? Maybe a five man TAC squad? Ten might be pushing their combat capability. 10 man guardsman squad? They might be able to handle fire warriors but if they brough kroots, I wouldn't bet on them. You're going to lose 1-2 of your 6 models to overwatch against anything but gretchins, so you're left with roughly a dozen S3 attacks and 2 S6 attacks on the charge maybe? That'll cause around two unsaved wounds to a tactical squad.

I see it as the same as the Militarium Tempestus codex. It's not ment to be a stand alone army, but gives you the option to play it that way if you want to.

 SilverDevilfish wrote:
You're missing the point of the Harlie dex. It's not to make a competent force, it's to force Eldar players to buy the Harlie dex if they want to field Harlequins in their army when the new Eldar codex hits.

They didn't do it with Tempestus, I would be VERY surprised if they did it with Eldar/Harlequin.

It always has bugged me that the so called much more advanced technology of the eldar is never really show on table top. Armour is worse, fusion guns are worse, plasma weapons are worse, bright lance is 90% of the times worse than a las cannon, ccw are worse, flyesr are worse, and my personal favorite, SM can easily get 3++ inv and the best the "advanced" eldar are able to give to their wraith constructs is a 5++.

I think if you're equipping your Harlies with 1-2 special weapons you're doing it wrong. I can see the justification for 1-2 cheap Harlies to eat overwatch, but everything else should be packing upgraded CC weapons. Pistol upgrades can be skipped entirely.

 Thud wrote:
I'm gonna hold off judgment until I've seen the codex, but so far they look laughably bad.

Key word laughably, they are clowns.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 SilverDevilfish wrote:
You're missing the point of the Harlie dex. It's not to make a competent force, it's to force Eldar players to buy the Harlie dex if they want to field Harlequins in their army when the new Eldar codex hits.

They didn't do it with Tempestus, I would be VERY surprised if they did it with Eldar/Harlequin.

Yes but they did do it with Inquisition and Assassins. Also notice the lack of Harlequins in the new DE codex?

the_scotsman wrote:
Unless the rules for the Shadowseer, Death Jester, Masque and Enigmas turn out to be some level of absolutely absurd, that is.

If you bring Harlequins, you need your opponent to have:

-No high toughness Death Star units (wraith guards, spawn, Bikers, Grotesques, whatever) and no Monstrous creatures (wraithknights, Riptides, Dreadknights) because everything's gotta be REALLY scared of S3/4 AP - melee attacks. Str 3/4 attacks? Have you read there rules??? A unit of Harlequins puts out more strength 6 attacks then most things in the game! D3 HOW hits each at Str 6, or a single Str 6 AP 2 attack each, or simply hitting on 6's is an insta-kill. If your running your Harlquins naked, then I'm afraid your doing something very wrong

-NO Superheavies, because harlies rely on some incredibly piddly anti tank options in terms of volume of fire. A IK would probably take three turns to shoot down with a full 2000pt harlequin army. Dark Eldar have no supper heavies and handle Knights the best in the game. Also, considering Harlequins rely on Invulnerable Saves/Cover saves, I'd say they can survive a knight better then most. Then consider ALL their Anti-Tank is either Melta (And they WILL have access to Webway Portals), Haywire or Lance, your point is not very well thought out.

-No flyers, because anti-air options don't exist. Or flying MCs for that matter. That's okay those aren't common.

-No ignores cover. Because all the vehicles foot infantry and bikes rely pretty heavily on cover saves. GASP! No ignores cover in a close range/assault orientated force? Whatever will you do??? Oh, i forgot, assault the fethers!

-No invisibility, because it makes your uber high WS pointless. But nobody takes that power anyway. Shadowseers can take Telepathy. So yeah...You can have it to. Also, due to HOW Harlequins handle this better then most.

They just seem like an army of everything that is the absolute worst stuff to take in the game right now. I get that you're supposed to make up their weaknesses with Eldar and DE, but in what situation would I not just want Dire Avengers in a WS or Kabalites in a Raider over harlequins? When you don't want to be a meta-gaming douche and spam Wave Serpents and Splinterboats? The only armies I can think of that wouldn't have to specifically try to construct a list for the harlies to stand a chance against are guard and sisters.

Sometimes I wonder, when they come out with the Necron rules and the Harlequin rules back to back, does anyone at GW play test anything? Or even talk to each other?

I think you'll find many of your points aren't all that well considered.

Really need to see the codex before we can make some solid judgments.

 Sasori wrote:
Really need to see the codex before we can make some solid judgments.

When has the lack of evidence and testing ever gotten in the way of a whiny conclusion here at Dakka?

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Unless the rules for the Shadowseer, Death Jester, Masque and Enigmas turn out to be some level of absolutely absurd, that is.

If you bring Harlequins, you need your opponent to have:

-No high toughness Death Star units (wraith guards, spawn, Bikers, Grotesques, whatever) and no Monstrous creatures (wraithknights, Riptides, Dreadknights) because everything's gotta be REALLY scared of S3/4 AP - melee attacks. Str 3/4 attacks? Have you read there rules??? A unit of Harlequins puts out more strength 6 attacks then most things in the game! D3 HOW hits each at Str 6, or a single Str 6 AP 2 attack each, or simply hitting on 6's is an insta-kill. If your running your Harlquins naked, then I'm afraid your doing something very wrong

-NO Superheavies, because harlies rely on some incredibly piddly anti tank options in terms of volume of fire. A IK would probably take three turns to shoot down with a full 2000pt harlequin army. Dark Eldar have no supper heavies and handle Knights the best in the game. Also, considering Harlequins rely on Invulnerable Saves/Cover saves, I'd say they can survive a knight better then most. Then consider ALL their Anti-Tank is either Melta (And they WILL have access to Webway Portals), Haywire or Lance, your point is not very well thought out.

-No flyers, because anti-air options don't exist. Or flying MCs for that matter. That's okay those aren't common.

-No ignores cover. Because all the vehicles foot infantry and bikes rely pretty heavily on cover saves. GASP! No ignores cover in a close range/assault orientated force? Whatever will you do??? Oh, i forgot, assault the fethers!

-No invisibility, because it makes your uber high WS pointless. But nobody takes that power anyway. Shadowseers can take Telepathy. So yeah...

They just seem like an army of everything that is the absolute worst stuff to take in the game right now. I get that you're supposed to make up their weaknesses with Eldar and DE, but in what situation would I not just want Dire Avengers in a WS or Kabalites in a Raider over harlequins? When you don't want to be a meta-gaming douche and spam Wave Serpents and Splinterboats? The only armies I can think of that wouldn't have to specifically try to construct a list for the harlies to stand a chance against are guard and sisters.

Sometimes I wonder, when they come out with the Necron rules and the Harlequin rules back to back, does anyone at GW play test anything? Or even talk to each other?

I think you'll find many of your points aren't all that well considered.

Exalted

 SilverDevilfish wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 SilverDevilfish wrote:
You're missing the point of the Harlie dex. It's not to make a competent force, it's to force Eldar players to buy the Harlie dex if they want to field Harlequins in their army when the new Eldar codex hits.

They didn't do it with Tempestus, I would be VERY surprised if they did it with Eldar/Harlequin.

Yes but they did do it with Inquisition and Assassins. Also notice the lack of Harlequins in the new DE codex?

Notice the inclusion of Tempestus in the Guard codex?

And really, Assassins and Inquisition shouldn't have been part of Codex: Grey Knights to begin with. They should have been parted out long before.

After their removal from the Dark Eldar book, I wouldnt expect to see harlies in the craftworld book.

Regardlessx this thread is all about needless doom and gloom. Harlies arent supposed to be competitive, this is a fluff product to help us forge the narrative or whatever. It amazes me how many people clamored for these sorts of minibooks, and now that GW is finally producing them you bitch and moan about them. Deal with it, the Harlequins afent an army, theyre a band of circus performers that have the means to kick some ass.

Not sure if serious or OP started this as a joke? Now don't take this the wrong way but, I mean no offense by it, but did you actually read the rules for them? Firstly I think it's important to see them for what they are intended to be, an allied force to bring along with your primary detachment. Think similar to the militarum tempestus dex. I wouldn't expect them to be able to do everything amazingly well but I would expect them to do some things good. Secondly, remember they are an elite glass cannon force, play them smart and you'll make your points back. I'm sorry you cant just throw these guys face first at the enemy, have them soak up withering amounts of fire that would normally destroy a titan then have them smash everything your opponent has to bits, infantry and vehicles alike. So on to what I know:

Melee is their focus it seems. for their points cost you are getting 2 attacks base, 1 for dual ccw, and 3 base attacks on the master, ld 9/10 on the master. Ignores initiative penalty for charging through difficult terrain, initiative 6/7 and ws 5/6. They come stock with fleet, furious charge, hit and run and fear. 5++ save is situational at best but it's better than the standard elder 5+. For the cost of three melta bombs a model? that's very respectable, the weapons are where it's at though.

Harlequin's kiss: One attack from each model equipped is a kiss attack, s6 ap2 and ID on a 6 to wound. Not super reliable but will be quite deadly against elite infantry and has a 50/50 chance to hurt most MC, it's not terribly expensive either. Use them as elite infantry killers with this or tie up that riptide and tear him down with it.

Harlequin's embrace: D3 HoW hits resolved at s6. On a troupe of 5 that's 5-15 guaranteed strength 6 hits over and above your normal attacks that will likely be going before your opponent anyways. This is good for horde or forcing saves on MC, keep in mind s6 (if you charge the rear, because HoW ruling) is still a decent strength to bring against vehicles, short of monoliths and LR most vehicles don't have great rear armour so massed s6 attacks stand a fair chance of hurting them. Hit and Run jives nicely with this weapon.

Harlequin's Caress: Any TO HIT roll of 6 is an automatic wound at ap2 or glancing hit on a vehicle. From a troupe of 5 that's like 21 attacks on the charge isn't it? How many sixes you think you can roll on that? Someone else can do the mathahmmer.

Now ranged weapons:

Shuriken pistol: it's what we've seen before on eldar. Bladestorm is the big thing here, its not bad for a free weapon.

Fusion pistol: s8 ap1 6" melta, its decent anti tank but super short ranged, not terrible on a unit that thrives in assault anyways though.

Neuro-disruptor: s1 ap2 fleshbane. Umm yeah another MC killer or elite infantry.

All this on just the troop choice. I'd say that's a respectable entry. I've seen the transport rules too and it looks pretty solid so I'm not worried about getting these guys into the fight. The jetibikes can have haywire cannons and coupled with the fact they are elder jetbikes so they can move in the assault phase means they can move/shoot/move back into cover or behind LoS blocking terrain. Only bad part is that they are blast weapons so they cant fire when they jink but really how reliable is that anyways?

I really think the solitaire is fairly priced for what he brings to the table as well. And he doesn't have to be your warlord either so that's not a big deal, even if he was he can always roll on the BRB traits and some of them are quite nice.

Things we haven't seen yet are: The enigmas, these relics could be pretty sweet,largely disappointing or (gasp) fairly priced and solid pieces of gear let's reserve our opinions on them until after we've seen them eh? Same goes for the death jester and shadowseer, though I did see a leak of one of the shadowseer powers and its the primaris I think that grants stealth and shrouded. As for the FoC GW seems to be in love with formations and Detachments right now so based on that I'm going to say they will probably get their own formations/detachments/allied rules that for all intents and purposes you'll count as battle forged but you'll gain a different special rule instead of obsec, they will likely get their own warlord traits table too. Without seeing the rules I think we can just wait patiently and reserve judgement on that too eh?

In conclusion I feel your judgement on them is far too critical with far too little knowledge available at the moment. I concede they don't seem to have much AA but really they wouldn't be the first (SoB). They seem like an army to be played with mobility, positioning and applying the right units/gear to it's designated task. You know... tactics? As a force designed to be used as allies I think it's quite forgivable to be lacking some areas of expertise as long as they make up for it in other areas. I'm also not convinced on your comparison of 1 naked harlie vs one bolter marine. Ignoring shooting attacks and overwatch I don't think the odds are as skewed in the marines favor as you would have us believe. I'd say they'd be even at worst.

At the end of the day however if you still think they are garbage, no one is forcing you to buy and field them.

3 units and an hq is not an army, regardless of what GW wants to call it.

Not everyone who plays this game is a hyper-competitive Power Gamer OP

Some people do enjoy playing fluffy armies

xxvaderxx wrote:
3 units and an hq is not an army, regardless of what GW wants to call it.

We're actually at 6 units at the moment:

Death Jester
Shadowseer
Voidweaver
Skyweaver
Troupe
Solitaire


Excluding Forge World, Imperial Knights is an army of 1 unit, with a codex that has a whole 6 pages of non-fluff.

As to competitiveness, everyone seems to judge armies as weak if they aren't powerful long range shooty types -- but that assumes a board that is sparse on meaningful terrain. Play a board like Sector Imperialis and put a couple of buildings on every piece (the 3-4 story ones, or add in heavy forest/mountain/hills that obscure LOS, and suddenly 72" range firing is no longer a factor. Add alleyways that are only 35cm wide, and suddenly, assassin-type units are extremely dangerous. Instead of making the whole a shooting range, put some thought into map design and create interesting choke points and locations worth controlling. It all makes for better, more interesting games.

I feel sad when I go into FLGS and see people playing on maps with just a few pieces of felt and a couple of hills

Isn't really meant to be more of a Ally than a stand alone?

pm713 wrote:
Maybe they're for fun rather than winning?

I question the fun to be had from watching your army get kerbstomped as it fails to live up to its background fluff.

In general, I'd be inclined to withhold judgement until the rules are all out there, but the immediate prognosis is that there's no point pretending that Harlequins by themselves will be able to provide a worthwhile match to 'proper' 40k armies; they're just a dataslate for Eldar and Deldar.

Yes! They are supposed to be a supplementary allied force.

Oh, but if you want to field anyone you NEED to have:

Exactly 3 troupes
Exactly 1 unit of Voidweavers
Exactly 2 units of Starweavers

Bare minimum with DTs for each troupe, (since you aren't footslogging 3 min troupes across the board) is around 800 points. You want special weapons in the troupes? 850. You want units of 3 Skyweavers with haywire? Almost 1000. You want a Solitaire, any elite attachments?

To even play Harlequins, you need to dedicate nearly half your army to them. They can't run CAD or Allied detachments-they can't bring an HQ because they don't have one. Harlequins are shaping up to be awful because Harlequins are insanely inflexible.

Is a unit of harlies chock-full of special weaponry good? Probably. Are they points efficient? At 19 points a model, T3 5++, even if they did manage to totally wipe some unit before getting wasted by the nearest 10 man squad of lasgun guardsmen, you've lost points. They have lots of options but no matter how you equip them there's a different unit in the DE or Eldar codex who does it better for fewer points.

The tired old 40k argument of "these units are for FLUFF gaming, these units are for COMPETITIVE gaming" is a lazy excuse for allowing a lazy company to get away with lazy balance. I can pick up Malifaux, create a fluffy flavorful army with a theme and a personality and make it all my own, and be able to play it against most any other army and stand a chance. If GW wants Superheavies and Death Stars and flyers and crazy psychic powers to be part of their game, they need to keep them in mind when creating new armies. You can't just write an army that would have worked in 5th but is woefully unprepared for 7th and wonder why your opponents aren't carefully not choosing any of the options they have that you can't deal with.

 Vash108 wrote:
Isn't really meant to be more of a Ally than a stand alone?

You can use it either way.
I played the Harlie codex made by Gav Thorpe several times a few years ago.
All my Marine opponents lost.
Today, the game is different with overwatch, flyers, and whatnot.
A stand alone Harlie army will have a hard time at the comp level.
However, I think particularly Marine players should try Harlies or DE.
It will give them a different feeling and experience playing 40k.

I do think they're rather... underwhelming.

I mean, they don't have to be as well-rounded and competitive as a full-fledged faction codex. But they should at least "plug the gaps" in the Eldar and DE codex. Everything they can do, you can do with the regular codex - the Solitaire is the only thing that stands out to me. This is dataslate material.

Pure Harlies will always win against pure LotD...

 Kanluwen wrote:

 SilverDevilfish wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 SilverDevilfish wrote:
You're missing the point of the Harlie dex. It's not to make a competent force, it's to force Eldar players to buy the Harlie dex if they want to field Harlequins in their army when the new Eldar codex hits.

They didn't do it with Tempestus, I would be VERY surprised if they did it with Eldar/Harlequin.

Yes but they did do it with Inquisition and Assassins. Also notice the lack of Harlequins in the new DE codex?

Notice the inclusion of Tempestus in the Guard codex?

And really, Assassins and Inquisition shouldn't have been part of Codex: Grey Knights to begin with. They should have been parted out long before.

Nice, now explain why Harlies weren't in DE, I notice you glossed over that. I don't see why you brought up Tempestus again either, I already answered with an affirmative.

the_scotsman wrote:
Yes! They are supposed to be a supplementary allied force.

Oh, but if you want to field anyone you NEED to have:

Exactly 3 troupes
Exactly 1 unit of Voidweavers
Exactly 2 units of Starweavers

Bare minimum with DTs for each troupe, (since you aren't footslogging 3 min troupes across the board) is around 800 points. You want special weapons in the troupes? 850. You want units of 3 Skyweavers with haywire? Almost 1000. You want a Solitaire, any elite attachments?

To even play Harlequins, you need to dedicate nearly half your army to them. They can't run CAD or Allied detachments-they can't bring an HQ because they don't have one. Harlequins are shaping up to be awful because Harlequins are insanely inflexible.

Is a unit of harlies chock-full of special weaponry good? Probably. Are they points efficient? At 19 points a model, T3 5++, even if they did manage to totally wipe some unit before getting wasted by the nearest 10 man squad of lasgun guardsmen, you've lost points. They have lots of options but no matter how you equip them there's a different unit in the DE or Eldar codex who does it better for fewer points.

The tired old 40k argument of "these units are for FLUFF gaming, these units are for COMPETITIVE gaming" is a lazy excuse for allowing a lazy company to get away with lazy balance. I can pick up Malifaux, create a fluffy flavorful army with a theme and a personality and make it all my own, and be able to play it against most any other army and stand a chance. If GW wants Superheavies and Death Stars and flyers and crazy psychic powers to be part of their game, they need to keep them in mind when creating new armies. You can't just write an army that would have worked in 5th but is woefully unprepared for 7th and wonder why your opponents aren't carefully not choosing any of the options they have that you can't deal with.

You don't need to take 5 Starweavers "minimum" to run Harlequins. You can take 2 as Fast Attack and then put two of your squads in them. Maybe the third squad will go in another Starweaver, or maybe it will deep strike in with a Webway Portal - we don't know yet whether they will have access to that piece of wargear. The minimum investment to run a Masque is 500 points on the nose. Also, it is reasonably safe to assume the Codex will have formations that will not require you to take a full Masque. I will be running them alongside CWE, and will have 2 Wave Serpents and a Crimson Hunter for anti-air. Also, Harlies are 15 ppm, not 19. I assume you just divided the cost of Troupe by 5, but keep in mind the Troupe Master has two wounds and an extra attack, so you are paying a bit more than 15 for him.

"They're just meant to be a supplement Dex, not supposed to be a full competitive codex!"

So...why am I paying for a full 50$ codex instead of a supplement? Why is there a two HUNDRED DOLLAR special edition for 7 units? I think GW will have to include a coloring book at the end to be able to bind it in hardcover.

 Sir Arun wrote:
- Dont the Kisses have rending?

- I'm pretty sure there's a lot of fusion pistols the Harlies can pack.

- true

- I'm pretty sure the flip belts give inv. saves, though crappy ones.

- invisibility is at most cast on 1 deathstar unit every 1500+ points army in general.

IMO harlies are no worse off than Codex: LotD or Codex: Militarum Tempestus

Those things are supplement. They are meant to be terrible if you use them alone. Which is why you normally play Legion of the Damn with Space Marines and Tempestus with Astra Militarum.

the_scotsman wrote:
"They're just meant to be a supplement Dex, not supposed to be a full competitive codex!"

So...why am I paying for a full 50$ codex instead of a supplement? Why is there a two HUNDRED DOLLAR special edition for 7 units? I think GW will have to include a coloring book at the end to be able to bind it in hardcover.

Then dont buy it? Or are you physically being forced to spend money by GW representatives?

Bharring wrote:
Pure Harlies will always win against pure LotD...

Enjoy that exalt, sir. You earned it

the_scotsman wrote:
Unless the rules for the Shadowseer, Death Jester, Masque and Enigmas turn out to be some level of absolutely absurd, that is.

If you bring Harlequins, you need your opponent to have:

-No high toughness Death Star units (wraith guards, spawn, Bikers, Grotesques, whatever) and no Monstrous creatures (wraithknights, Riptides, Dreadknights) because everything's gotta be REALLY scared of S3/4 AP - melee attacks.

-NO Superheavies, because harlies rely on some incredibly piddly anti tank options in terms of volume of fire. A IK would probably take three turns to shoot down with a full 2000pt harlequin army

-No flyers, because anti-air options don't exist. Or flying MCs for that matter. That's okay those aren't common.

-No ignores cover. Because all the vehicles foot infantry and bikes rely pretty heavily on cover saves.

-No invisibility, because it makes your uber high WS pointless. But nobody takes that power anyway.

They just seem like an army of everything that is the absolute worst stuff to take in the game right now. I get that you're supposed to make up their weaknesses with Eldar and DE, but in what situation would I not just want Dire Avengers in a WS or Kabalites in a Raider over harlequins? The only armies I can think of that wouldn't have to specifically try to construct a list for the harlies to stand a chance against are guard and sisters.

Sometimes I wonder, when they come out with the Necron rules and the Harlequin rules back to back, does anyone at GW play test anything? Or even talk to each other?

It's almost as if you've never heard of the Scion codex or the Legion of the Damned codex.

the_scotsman wrote:
Yes! They are supposed to be a supplementary allied force.

Oh, but if you want to field anyone you NEED to have:

Exactly 3 troupes
Exactly 1 unit of Voidweavers
Exactly 2 units of Starweavers

Bare minimum with DTs for each troupe, (since you aren't footslogging 3 min troupes across the board) is around 800 points. You want special weapons in the troupes? 850. You want units of 3 Skyweavers with haywire? Almost 1000. You want a Solitaire, any elite attachments?

This is untrue. The Codex will have 6 formations:

Rules for fielding your collection of Harlequins in games of Warhammer 40,000 including army special rules and 6 formations
http://www.games-workshop.com/en-CA/Codex-Harlequins-English-NAS

At least wait for the Codex to come out bash the Harlequins :\

I have a feeling OP will regret "bopping" the clowns.
These clowns "bop" back.

If they were the worst army, who could blame them? They're a bunch of interstellar space elf murder clowns who DANCE stories to entertain a stiff crowd Eldar craftworld (which have probably heard the story a million times) first, and are ultra freak out psychedelic breakdance karate clown ninjas when they feel like stepping in and serving game.

They're not an army, they're an ally book. It's like the GK, you don't field them alone, you field them to get stuff for Eldar/DE.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
They're not an army, they're an ally book. It's like the GK, you don't field them alone, you field them to get stuff for Eldar/DE.

Yeah, they sound like a solid add to break up serpent spam

I haven't seen anything g yet they couldn't take down. 2x5 man units with harlequins caress could drop an imlerial knight in one turn, without rolling an armor penetration check. Their primaris power won't let you hit them at all from more than 24" away, and I used the solitaire in a game against grey knights, he wipped out 5 terminators in two turns by himself. They have answers, and I am gladly fielding g them stand alone

I think they look like a complete blast to play. Looks like a finesse army with unique answers to many popular builds.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
I haven't seen anything g yet they couldn't take down. 2x5 man units with harlequins caress could drop an imlerial knight in one turn, without rolling an armor penetration check. Their primaris power won't let you hit them at all from more than 24" away, and I used the solitaire in a game against grey knights, he wipped out 5 terminators in two turns by himself. They have answers, and I am gladly fielding g them stand alone

The Solitaire looks like a rockin' beast on the field. The whole army looks phenomenal on terrain heavy, urban maps, especially versus high cost/low model count armies.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
They're not an army, they're an ally book. It's like the GK, you don't field them alone, you field them to get stuff for Eldar/DE.

Eldar or DE don't need Harlie allies.
There is nothing Harlies could give them in a world of shootyness.

Talys wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
They're not an army, they're an ally book. It's like the GK, you don't field them alone, you field them to get stuff for Eldar/DE.

Yeah, they sound like a solid add to break up serpent spam

I mean, the super-duper-ultra-special-edition-Codex-of-awesome comes with Sanctic cards. I'm bracing myself for people screaming when they realize there's going to be a rerollable 2+/3++ Wraithblade deathstar (Fortune, Sanctuary, and Protect, before you ask) Gating into their face.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
They're not an army, they're an ally book. It's like the GK, you don't field them alone, you field them to get stuff for Eldar/DE.

Eldar or DE don't need Harlie allies.
There is nothing Harlies could give them in a world of shootyness.

They might not need them per say but that doesn't mean people won't want to play them. I think it's fairly obvious that the intent of the codex is to use Eldar or DE as the base list and ally the Harlequins, with the option to use them as a stand alone if you want to. Pretty much like Tempestus Scions but at least this time the units in the codex are unique and not literally in the main codex, exactly the same...

 wuestenfux wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
They're not an army, they're an ally book. It's like the GK, you don't field them alone, you field them to get stuff for Eldar/DE.

Eldar or DE don't need Harlie allies.
There is nothing Harlies could give them in a world of shootyness.

Sanctic for the deathstar and a decent melee unit to pop out of Raiders if you're playing casually enough that your Raider lasts longer than a kite made of tissue paper in a Dragonlance fight.

Aren't the Harlequins supposed to be, basically, librarians (and not in the Space Marine way)? A little soft-shoe, some acapella numbers and a bunch of interpretive dance routines in a library that almost no one ever gets to visit?

Why the hell would you expect them to be war-gods as well?

Well, they're Eldar, so they fight at least as well as any other Eldar (which is pretty damn good, quick, strong, insane reactions etc) and their dance is probably more like a martial art than a dance.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
They're not an army, they're an ally book. It's like the GK, you don't field them alone, you field them to get stuff for Eldar/DE.

Eldar or DE don't need Harlie allies.
There is nothing Harlies could give them in a world of shootyness.

Sanctic for the deathstar and a decent melee unit to pop out of Raiders if you're playing casually enough that your Raider lasts longer than a kite made of tissue paper in a Dragonlance fight.

Agreed, also overlooking the fact that they cover more niches than the base armies (Eldar/DE). The Jetbikes would be great in tandem with Reavers, the Solitaire is probably a better fighter than most of the DE HQ's, and Harlequins are basically Wyches that can actually do their damn job.

Like others have said, Harlies are likely intended to be allied with DE/CWE. If there was any doubt before, the new Harlie psychic powers seem to clear this up as they work incredibly well with DE and CWE leadership debuffing/Psychic Scream abilities. A Shadowseer with Mask/Armor of Misery wielding Succubus w/WWP in a Grotesquerie is a -5 to any enemy unit's Leadership. Combined with Harlie psychic powers 5 or 6, this combo can do some serious damage to a unit before they even charge in. It looks like the evil space clowns synergize really well with the evil space elves.

Arnais wrote:
It always has bugged me that the so called much more advanced technology of the eldar is never really show on table top. Armour is worse, fusion guns are worse, plasma weapons are worse, bright lance is 90% of the times worse than a las cannon, ccw are worse, flyesr are worse, and my personal favorite, SM can easily get 3++ inv and the best the "advanced" eldar are able to give to their wraith constructs is a 5++.

From a "realistic" point of view, eldar plasma weapons are much better, because they don't kill their user. Shurken weapons are much better than bolters. Armor is the same, actually, with eldar having equivalents for flak, carapace, and power armor. (Lumbering terminators are not really Eldar style.). The bright lance is paying for its superiority against AV14. (Arent't fusion guns identical to meltas?)

Bikes are much better. Las weapons are much much better. Jump troops that can teleport are much better. Pretty much everything seems to be much better.

8th Ed will see Pistols used as CCWs with their S and AP, not the models. This will be one of the fundamental changes to the game that encourages Assaults, making the new Harliquins viable. This new codex was written for 8th, not 7th.

Just say'n.

SJ

Intriguing. Is this based on any inside information or is this a guess?

Does it really matter how they perform in game? The models are beautiful.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
8th Ed will see Pistols used as CCWs with their S and AP, not the models. This will be one of the fundamental changes to the game that encourages Assaults, making the new Harliquins viable. This new codex was written for 8th, not 7th.

Just say'n.

SJ

We can only hope.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Well, they're Eldar, so they fight at least as well as any other Eldar (which is pretty damn good, quick, strong, insane reactions etc) and their dance is probably more like a martial art than a dance.

Why is it after reading this and saying it's not a dance, people think it's an actual dance? Now I can't get it out of my head the Harlequins are doing Gangum Style dance now.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
They're not an army, they're an ally book. It's like the GK, you don't field them alone, you field them to get stuff for Eldar/DE.

Eldar or DE don't need Harlie allies.
There is nothing Harlies could give them in a world of shootyness.

Sanctic for the deathstar and a decent melee unit to pop out of Raiders if you're playing casually enough that your Raider lasts longer than a kite made of tissue paper in a Dragonlance fight.

I'm not familiar with this.
Please elaborate.

A summary of this thread so far.

"it's not really an army"

"then why does it have a codex>?"

"you don't need to win every game you know!"

Also, to all those people saying "it's meant for allies ya silly gooses" then how can that be possible without an HQ choice?

 Lord of Misrule wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Maybe they're for fun rather than winning?

I question the fun to be had from watching your army get kerbstomped as it fails to live up to its background fluff.

In general, I'd be inclined to withhold judgement until the rules are all out there, but the immediate prognosis is that there's no point pretending that Harlequins by themselves will be able to provide a worthwhile match to 'proper' 40k armies; they're just a dataslate for Eldar and Deldar.

We just need to find out if that detachment is the only way to take them or if you can take the individual units on their own. If its just the detachment then its a minimum of 500pts of models that don't have much punch or defense, then more points invested with the meager defense of the shadowseers.

Then you play against drop pod marines and lose a majority of your army in a single turn. T3 and 5++ doesn't go very far.

 Crablezworth wrote:
A summary of this thread so far.

"it's not really an army"

"then why does it have a codex>?"

"you don't need to win every game you know!"

Also, to all those people saying "it's meant for allies ya silly gooses" then how can that be possible without an HQ choice?

Unless I'm mistaken, isnt this an HQ?

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-CA/Solitaire

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
A summary of this thread so far.

"it's not really an army"

"then why does it have a codex>?"

"you don't need to win every game you know!"

Also, to all those people saying "it's meant for allies ya silly gooses" then how can that be possible without an HQ choice?

Unless I'm mistaken, isnt this an HQ?

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-CA/Solitaire

Pretty sure it's an elite.

Arnais wrote:
It always has bugged me that the so called much more advanced technology of the eldar is never really show on table top. Armour is worse, fusion guns are worse, plasma weapons are worse, bright lance is 90% of the times worse than a las cannon, ccw are worse, flyesr are worse, and my personal favorite, SM can easily get 3++ inv and the best the "advanced" eldar are able to give to their wraith constructs is a 5++.

I mean that is just the marine bios the game is built on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
They're not an army, they're an ally book. It's like the GK, you don't field them alone, you field them to get stuff for Eldar/DE.

Eldar or DE don't need Harlie allies.
There is nothing Harlies could give them in a world of shootyness.

Cheap way to field 2 shuirken cannons on a mobile platform. They aren't waveserpents, but for DE spamming venoms, having some str6 ap 2 in there adds a lot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SweaterKittens wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
They're not an army, they're an ally book. It's like the GK, you don't field them alone, you field them to get stuff for Eldar/DE.

Eldar or DE don't need Harlie allies.
There is nothing Harlies could give them in a world of shootyness.

Sanctic for the deathstar and a decent melee unit to pop out of Raiders if you're playing casually enough that your Raider lasts longer than a kite made of tissue paper in a Dragonlance fight.

Agreed, also overlooking the fact that they cover more niches than the base armies (Eldar/DE). The Jetbikes would be great in tandem with Reavers, the Solitaire is probably a better fighter than most of the DE HQ's, and Harlequins are basically Wyches that can actually do their damn job.

DE combat HQs suck, GW dropped the ball on that. So yes, Harlies add a lot to DE.

metaphorical thread summary:

"this pizza tastes horrible"

"it's meant to be a taco"

"yeah but taco or pizza, it still tastes bad"

"people who care if things taste good are whiners, no ones forcing you to eat ya know!"

 Exergy wrote:

Arnais wrote:
It always has bugged me that the so called much more advanced technology of the eldar is never really show on table top. Armour is worse, fusion guns are worse, plasma weapons are worse, bright lance is 90% of the times worse than a las cannon, ccw are worse, flyesr are worse, and my personal favorite, SM can easily get 3++ inv and the best the "advanced" eldar are able to give to their wraith constructs is a 5++.

I mean that is just the marine bios the game is built on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
They're not an army, they're an ally book. It's like the GK, you don't field them alone, you field them to get stuff for Eldar/DE.

Eldar or DE don't need Harlie allies.
There is nothing Harlies could give them in a world of shootyness.

Cheap way to field 2 shuirken cannons on a mobile platform. They aren't waveserpents, but for DE spamming venoms, having some str6 ap 2 in there adds a lot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SweaterKittens wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
They're not an army, they're an ally book. It's like the GK, you don't field them alone, you field them to get stuff for Eldar/DE.

Eldar or DE don't need Harlie allies.
There is nothing Harlies could give them in a world of shootyness.

Sanctic for the deathstar and a decent melee unit to pop out of Raiders if you're playing casually enough that your Raider lasts longer than a kite made of tissue paper in a Dragonlance fight.

Agreed, also overlooking the fact that they cover more niches than the base armies (Eldar/DE). The Jetbikes would be great in tandem with Reavers, the Solitaire is probably a better fighter than most of the DE HQ's, and Harlequins are basically Wyches that can actually do their damn job.

DE combat HQs suck, GW dropped the ball on that. So yes, Harlies add a lot to DE.

Exergy, are you serious about Harlie allies for DE?

 wuestenfux wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
They're not an army, they're an ally book. It's like the GK, you don't field them alone, you field them to get stuff for Eldar/DE.

Eldar or DE don't need Harlie allies.
There is nothing Harlies could give them in a world of shootyness.

Sanctic for the deathstar and a decent melee unit to pop out of Raiders if you're playing casually enough that your Raider lasts longer than a kite made of tissue paper in a Dragonlance fight.

I'm not familiar with this.
Please elaborate.

What, Sanctic? I'm not supposed to give out complete rules but the table you roll on includes remove psyker and unit from play and Deep Strike them back in, +2S to psyker and unit, +1 Inv to psyker and unit, 4e-Codex Mind War, a nova that hits every enemy unit within 9" of the psyker with 2d6 Ignores Cover heavy bolter hits, and a vortex grenade.

As for "kite made of tissue paper in a Dragonlance fight" that was whimsical hyperbole referring to the fact that a kite made of tissue paper isn't going to last all that long in the middle of an aerial battle between armies of dragons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(For those that don't see if if you have Hammerhand, Sanctuary, Protect, and Fortune up all at once your Ghost Axe Wraithblade unit is S10 and comes with a 2+/3++ rerollable)

pm713 wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
A summary of this thread so far.

"it's not really an army"

"then why does it have a codex>?"

"you don't need to win every game you know!"

Also, to all those people saying "it's meant for allies ya silly gooses" then how can that be possible without an HQ choice?

Unless I'm mistaken, isnt this an HQ?

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-CA/Solitaire

Pretty sure it's an elite.

Yeah the Solitaire is an elite.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
They're not an army, they're an ally book. It's like the GK, you don't field them alone, you field them to get stuff for Eldar/DE.

Eldar or DE don't need Harlie allies.
There is nothing Harlies could give them in a world of shootyness.

Sanctic for the deathstar and a decent melee unit to pop out of Raiders if you're playing casually enough that your Raider lasts longer than a kite made of tissue paper in a Dragonlance fight.

I'm not familiar with this.
Please elaborate.

What, Sanctic? I'm not supposed to give out complete rules but the table you roll on includes remove psyker and unit from play and Deep Strike them back in, +2S to psyker and unit, +1 Inv to psyker and unit, 4e-Codex Mind War, a nova that hits every enemy unit within 9" of the psyker with 2d6 Ignores Cover heavy bolter hits, and a vortex grenade.

As for "kite made of tissue paper in a Dragonlance fight" that was whimsical hyperbole referring to the fact that a kite made of tissue paper isn't going to last all that long in the middle of an aerial battle between armies of dragons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(For those that don't see if if you have Hammerhand, Sanctuary, Protect, and Fortune up all at once your Ghost Axe Wraithblade unit is S10 and comes with a 2+/3++ rerollable)

Thanks for pointing out. Sanctic. Yes please.

 Crablezworth wrote:
A summary of this thread so far.

"it's not really an army"

"then why does it have a codex>?"

"you don't need to win every game you know!"

Also, to all those people saying "it's meant for allies ya silly gooses" then how can that be possible without an HQ choice?

Because allies don't necessarily need an HQ?

An Allied Detachment needs an HQ, however, so your Harlies cannot get ObSec, unless one of the faction specific formations/detachments gives it,

there not ment to be a stand alone army, they don't need a full range in weaponry and equipment.

there to add support and flavour to another army.

 jhe90 wrote:
there not ment to be a stand alone army, they don't need a full range in weaponry and equipment.

there to add support and flavour to another army.

No, they don't.
They give Marine players an opportunity to play an army with a very different play style.

 calamarialldayerrday wrote:
Does it really matter how they perform in game? The models are beautiful.

Rule of Cool clearly states that how well a model performs in game is directly proportional to how pleasing it is to the eye. Fact.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
there not ment to be a stand alone army, they don't need a full range in weaponry and equipment.

there to add support and flavour to another army.

No, they don't.
They give Marine players an opportunity to play an army with a very different play style.

True as well as somthing that's abit more varied to paint.
Power armour can be samey at times.

After checking out the rumored formations in the news and rumor thread, these beasties will not need to ally with ANYBODY! Most of the formations allow run and charge starting turn two, their psycker powers are rediculous, and the death jester has to be the most manipulative character in the game. Also, for competitive minded individuals, the death jester and shadowseer may only roll a d3 for warlord traits. That gives you a much better chance to have a cherry warlord trait to plan around. Gonna be fun

I get that their vehicles will die in a stiff breeze and are very pricy but they hit like a truck and have Shadowseers to keep them relatively safe via the huge amount of psychic tinkerery they have.

Now that pretty much all the rules have been released I think we will see some people starting to play test them and I'm expecting to be pleasantly surprised by the results.

A Masque allied with DE looks amazing on paper.

 jhe90 wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
there not ment to be a stand alone army, they don't need a full range in weaponry and equipment.

there to add support and flavour to another army.

No, they don't.
They give Marine players an opportunity to play an army with a very different play style.

True as well as somthing that's abit more varied to paint.
Power armour can be samey at times.

Painting a checkered board is an issue.
Only doable by an advanced painter.

sweetbacon wrote:
Intriguing. Is this based on any inside information or is this a guess?

Based on the leaked "heretic" BRB rules lining up with the rumored 8th Ed BRB, as well as GW's history of codex releases. Example: the Grey Knight 5th Ed codex was released in 5th with unique rules that were standard for 6th Ed. We saw the same thing with dataslate releases in 6th that were formated for 7th. The recent Necron and Harliquin codexes seem to be slanted away from 7th, indicating an upcoming 8th Ed BRB release, which might coincide with the 9th Ed WHFB release rumored to bring Fantasy more in-line with 40k, which again matches up with the leaked "heretic" BRB.

Which is to say, I'm just paying attention.

SJ

Seriously, less than a year after 7th, if they're releasing 8th they're really gonna shoot themselves in the foot.

How have Necrons and Harlies slanted away from 7th? And what's the Heretic rulebook?

A bunch of poorly wirtten fan rules who never made any sense basically, even when compared to GWs worst fails it looked bad.

And I've never seen anyone except jeffersonian000 saying any "rumors" on 8th edition. the heretic was a supposed "leaked" 7th edition rulebook.
And nothing in necrons and harlies shows a drift away from 7th. just a drift from sanity and reasonable balance (in decurion formations)


In any case, I am amazed how these topics keep coming up for every other new army, before the actual rules are even known.

We don't know all formations or their rule, we only recently seen the artifacts (and they are AMAZING), and the psyker powers (maybe the best disciple in the game) and we have yet to see the rules for at least 2 units (death jesters and shadowseers), and there are mentions of "trope master", yet we got no referance so far to what IS a trope master, what does it do, and if its even a unit or a designation (and if a designation, what are its effects)

Plus we have JUST seen the warlord traits, and they seem to be insane as well, effecting things that we have seen nothing in the game so far that can influence (changing the roll to end the game?! making a mini-turn after the game ends?! WTF?!)


FFS people, at least wait to have a general clue on a new ruleset before you decide its "the weakest codex evaaaaa"

 BoomWolf wrote:
... and there are mentions of "trope master", yet we got no referance so far to what IS a trope master, what does it do, and if its even a unit or a designation (and if a designation, what are its effects)

If you mean 'Troupe Master', then we do know what he is. He's basically the sergeant of the Harlequin Troupe.

 BoomWolf wrote:
A bunch of poorly wirtten fan rules who never made any sense basically, even when compared to GWs worst fails it looked bad.

And I've never seen anyone except jeffersonian000 saying any "rumors" on 8th edition. the heretic was a supposed "leaked" 7th edition rulebook.
And nothing in necrons and harlies shows a drift away from 7th. just a drift from sanity and reasonable balance (in decurion formations)


In any case, I am amazed how these topics keep coming up for every other new army, before the actual rules are even known.

We don't know all formations or their rule, we only recently seen the artifacts (and they are AMAZING), and the psyker powers (maybe the best disciple in the game) and we have yet to see the rules for at least 2 units (death jesters and shadowseers), and there are mentions of "trope master", yet we got no referance so far to what IS a trope master, what does it do, and if its even a unit or a designation (and if a designation, what are its effects)

Plus we have JUST seen the warlord traits, and they seem to be insane as well, effecting things that we have seen nothing in the game so far that can influence (changing the roll to end the game?! making a mini-turn after the game ends?! WTF?!)


FFS people, at least wait to have a general clue on a new ruleset before you decide its "the weakest codex evaaaaa"

Considering that a T3 2W non-EW squad sergeant has to be the warlord to have a chance to get any of the Harlequin Warlord Traits, meh.

Your opponent has to tell you which one the warlord is, so, shoot it in the face until it dies.

 BoomWolf wrote:
A bunch of poorly wirtten fan rules who never made any sense basically, even when compared to GWs worst fails it looked bad.

And I've never seen anyone except jeffersonian000 saying any "rumors" on 8th edition. the heretic was a supposed "leaked" 7th edition rulebook.
And nothing in necrons and harlies shows a drift away from 7th. just a drift from sanity and reasonable balance (in decurion formations)

So it's like the 'pancake edition' or whatever that was a fan made leak around 5th/6ths release? I thought as much, seriously 7th came out last year, we aren't going to see 8th this year. And I didn't think anything was pointing to a new edition in terms of codex content either, but seeing as I don't own any 7th ed Codexes (Necrons was gonna be the first but if they're overpowered I don't think I want to play them), I wasn't sure.

 BoomWolf wrote:
In any case, I am amazed how these topics keep coming up for every other new army, before the actual rules are even known.

We don't know all formations or their rule, we only recently seen the artifacts (and they are AMAZING), and the psyker powers (maybe the best disciple in the game) and we have yet to see the rules for at least 2 units (death jesters and shadowseers), and there are mentions of "trope master", yet we got no referance so far to what IS a trope master, what does it do, and if its even a unit or a designation (and if a designation, what are its effects)

Plus we have JUST seen the warlord traits, and they seem to be insane as well, effecting things that we have seen nothing in the game so far that can influence (changing the roll to end the game?! making a mini-turn after the game ends?! WTF?!)


FFS people, at least wait to have a general clue on a new ruleset before you decide its "the weakest codex evaaaaa"

Uhm, everything has leaked. Formations, Shadowseers, Deathjesters, etc.

And please elaborate on what's so amazing about the artifacts, or the Warlord traits for that matter.

Warlord traits are super trollish. They are really good. Additionally the artifact that drops ld by 2 is insanely good in combination with the Harlequin powers and telepathy.

Overall this book will be low-medium as a stand alone competitively. Though very, very fun to play. However it'll jump solidly once combined properly with Eldar or Dark Eldar to fill it's holes.

I have yet to see the shaodwseers or deathjesters rules leaked anywhere.

As for the traits, what is NOT amazing on a +4 to initiative stealing (steal on 2+ effectifly), NDK style shunt move, +1" to every movement (move, run, charge, HnR, consolidation, whatever), reroll all 1s to attack (both shooting and CC), instant death on all attacks, CONTROLLING GAME LENGTH and moving things from the table into reserves while deploying to counter-deploy even when you went first?

The only traits that are as good are tau, and strategic is close because of the chance for the OP "master of ambush"

Shadowseer and DJ rules are in the Harlequin rumours thread.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Shadowseer and DJ rules are in the Harlequin rumours thread.

The death jester is a monster! WS/bs5 if he causes a fatality with his shrieker cannon, the unit makes a LD test at -2, if they fail, they fall back in a directionf of HIS choosing. Setting up charges, or forcing you to move off any table edge.
I am going to be running codex eldar: trolloquines for the foreseeable future

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Shadowseer and DJ rules are in the Harlequin rumours thread.

The death jester is a monster! WS/bs5 if he causes a fatality with his shrieker cannon, the unit makes a LD test at -2, if they fail, they fall back in a directionf of HIS choosing. Setting up charges, or forcing you to move off any table edge.
I am going to be running codex eldar: trolloquines for the foreseeable future

Even better than setting up charges, if I recall a Fleeing unit that is charged is immediately removed. So one hit and some lucky rolls can essentially one-shot an entire unit!

 Paradigm wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Shadowseer and DJ rules are in the Harlequin rumours thread.

The death jester is a monster! WS/bs5 if he causes a fatality with his shrieker cannon, the unit makes a LD test at -2, if they fail, they fall back in a directionf of HIS choosing. Setting up charges, or forcing you to move off any table edge.
I am going to be running codex eldar: trolloquines for the foreseeable future

Even better than setting up charges, if I recall a Fleeing unit that is charged is immediately removed. So one hit and some lucky rolls can essentially one-shot an entire unit!

This makes no sense.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Shadowseer and DJ rules are in the Harlequin rumours thread.

The death jester is a monster! WS/bs5 if he causes a fatality with his shrieker cannon, the unit makes a LD test at -2, if they fail, they fall back in a directionf of HIS choosing. Setting up charges, or forcing you to move off any table edge.
I am going to be running codex eldar: trolloquines for the foreseeable future

Even better than setting up charges, if I recall a Fleeing unit that is charged is immediately removed. So one hit and some lucky rolls can essentially one-shot an entire unit!

This makes no sense.

The explanation, or the tactic? In theory, it works like this:

DJ shoots a unit, causes a casualty
The unit fails LD on -2, and 'falls back' 2d6 towards the nearest Troupe
The Troupe then charges, and as the target is already fleeing, it is removed.

Unless that last rule has been removed in 7th, it should work.

You test to regroup if you are falling back and charged. If you fail to regroup then you die.

 Hulksmash wrote:
You test to regroup if you are falling back and charged. If you fail to regroup then you die.

Ah, it comes up so rarely I'd forgotten the exact wording. But still, combine it with the various Ld-debuffs available and it's still pretty viable, either you run down the unit entirely or your Harlies can go to work.

Monstrous Creatures are not an issue to an army that can field three characters with a version of Mind War that keeps going until the target dies.

Whats interesting is the stacking of the death jester rule. One failed wound is a morale test at -2. If you break and have other death jesters you could very well chase a unit off the table since you auto fail morale when you're already broken.


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 Furyou Miko wrote:
Monstrous Creatures are not an issue to an army that can field three characters with a version of Mind War that keeps going until the target dies.

Its unlikely, with ML2 you might get 1 or 2 with it.

Deny the Witch is pathetic, powers are super-easy to cast these days, I fail to see how this is... wait, standard Harlie squads don't provide warp charges, do they? >>

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Deny the Witch is pathetic, powers are super-easy to cast these days, I fail to see how this is... wait, standard Harlie squads don't provide warp charges, do they? >>

No, and what Im saying is that you'd have to spam shadowseers for the CHANCE to get a roll of a 6 on the phatasmancy table. Then manage to cast it, then manage not to have your opponent tie or beat you in the roll considering all MCs are Ld10.

First turn, flat out Raider with Grotesquerie and AoM Succubus next to problem unit. Shoot DJ(s) at it until you kill one model. Unit takes fall back test at -5 Ld. If they break, you decide which direction they fall back. This could be bad news for bikes, beasts, cavalry if they are near a side table edge. I'm now super excited about Codex: Troll.

 Ravenous D wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Deny the Witch is pathetic, powers are super-easy to cast these days, I fail to see how this is... wait, standard Harlie squads don't provide warp charges, do they? >>

No, and what Im saying is that you'd have to spam shadowseers for the CHANCE to get a roll of a 6 on the phatasmancy table. Then manage to cast it, then manage not to have your opponent tie or beat you in the roll considering all MCs are Ld10.

Not all MCs are Ld10. riptide for example is Ld9.

And with ungodly number of LD debuffs between quinns and DE, you can easily drop even an LD10 dude to 6, or even lower.

Quinns are good at the mental war.



As for the "chain DJ off the board" idea-the main issue there is range. but with DJ having assault type guns you can run them around in the transports, or heck even run them in the squads in order to make him draw your target of choice towards his very own squad for the assault-he needs not be stand-alone.

The main reason the quinn transport is 6" in my mind, is that a big squad with both DJ and SS could become a small madhouse quite quickly.

Can't units make only one fall back move per turn?

Makumba wrote:
Can't units make only one fall back move per turn?

Everytime they fail a Morale test, which I just looked up.

However, Death Jesters in the same squad would all have to roll at the same time due to firing the same weapon, so you'd have to shoot three (assuming they are in troupes) seperate units at one squad to make them run that much... 7 Death Jesters cost what? Just over 400 points? And that's to get 21 shots a turn.

We aint saying its the most effective tool ever, just that its trolltastic.

But even if you have 2-3 jesters running around, the mere potential to make multi-fallbacks is there.

This is what I'm curious about. According to the BRB, "Units that are Falling Back automatically fail all Morale checks..." Would this mean that if the squad loses 25% of the unit after the DJ shoots at it, OR, another DJ causes a casualty to the same unit during the shooting phase, that the unit would auto-fail the second morale test and keep falling back?

Yes, I think so. Subsequent DJ Wounds would prompt automatically failed Morale tests, and cause a Fall Back in whatever direction you choose. I guess you have to make sure you keep them in separate units, as otherwise I'd imagine you just cause one test.

Has anyone seen what the weapons are for the Voidweaver?

Cant find any rumours on the prismatic cannon or the haywaire cannon.

Thanks for the help!!!

I've got a feeling that many people in this thread were expecting to get Supplement: Wave serpents.

 BoomWolf wrote:
I have yet to see the shaodwseers or deathjesters rules leaked anywhere.

As for the traits, what is NOT amazing on a +4 to initiative stealing (steal on 2+ effectifly), NDK style shunt move, +1" to every movement (move, run, charge, HnR, consolidation, whatever), reroll all 1s to attack (both shooting and CC), instant death on all attacks, CONTROLLING GAME LENGTH and moving things from the table into reserves while deploying to counter-deploy even when you went first?

The only traits that are as good are tau, and strategic is close because of the chance for the OP "master of ambush"

Going first has its pros and cons. On one hand it would be nice to get off some of those psychic powers before you get tabled, but on the other it's nice to have the last turn for grabbing objectives, especially with super fragile units.

Shunt on a Dreadknight and shunt on a unit of Harlequins are two different things. One of those units can survive a little bit of fire power and be joined by several other shunting units, and the other, well... Not so much.

+1" to movement is a neat bonus, but hardly game-breaking. Your fragile, expensive unit that already had a target on it from including your warlord now has another.

CC buffs for a Troupe Master. Yay!

You can't get the extra turn if your warlord is dead. Which he will be.

Deployment shenanigans is cool. If only you could be sure to get that one.


It's not that the traits are bad compared to other tables, it's just that they don't really help the Harlequins with stuff they desperately need (i.e., staying alive for more than three turns).

As for the relics; the -2ld is an autotake on one of your Shadowseers (especially since they get Telepathy), your Troupe Master warlord (if he's in a detachment/formation that gets the run+charge power) needs the 3++, but it's nothing to write home about, and that's about it. The ap3 sword is okay, but in the end only gives you a damage output similar to a SM Captain with a power sword. Not awful, but by no means amazing.

Ever play Orks?

 Sick Bag wrote:
Ever play Orks?

I know exactly how you feel. My greatest fear is that this new space clown codex will be better than my beloved orks!

Incognito15 wrote:
Has anyone seen what the weapons are for the Voidweaver?

Cant find any rumours on the prismatic cannon or the haywaire cannon.

Thanks for the help!!!

The haywire cannon is S4 AP4 haywire small blast, range 24"

The prismatic cannon (going from memory) has three firing modes, dispersed, something else and focused. Dispersed is S3 AP 5 large blast, the middle one is S4 AP3 small blast, and the focused one is S7 AP 2 Lance. I believe all three firing modes have 24" range.

Prismatic cannon looks to be worth the points for the upgrade on the Voidweaver.


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 Ravenous D wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Deny the Witch is pathetic, powers are super-easy to cast these days, I fail to see how this is... wait, standard Harlie squads don't provide warp charges, do they? >>

No, and what Im saying is that you'd have to spam shadowseers for the CHANCE to get a roll of a 6 on the phatasmancy table. Then manage to cast it, then manage not to have your opponent tie or beat you in the roll considering all MCs are Ld10.

Apparently, you have not read the Tyranid codex, as almost none of their MCs are Ld 10. Carnifexes of all varieties (T-fex, Haruspex, Stone Crusher), for example, are Ld 7.

 curran12 wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
Really need to see the codex before we can make some solid judgments.

When has the lack of evidence and testing ever gotten in the way of a whiny conclusion here at Dakka?

Well, you Sr. had just describe a great chunk of post in the general section of dakkadakka, you earn it a beer if ever we met



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 koooaei wrote:
I've got a feeling that many people in this thread were expecting to get Supplement: Wave serpents.

Nah, a lot of poeple were expecting 10pts eldars with 10 pts 14av Wave searpents, with an inv of 2++ and fusions guns that are s10 ap1 assault 10 rending... yeah i know, but its what people want these days in an army to even consider it a good army

In more serious tone, the solitare is a beast on cc, in a single turn he is capable of take down a whole unit of whatever you want (excepting broken things, you now, blob guard with priest and invisibility, that kind of stuff) the death jester is a hell of fun to play and troll the opponent, and the shadowseer and the psyquic powers look so great, in others words i see codex: Harlenquin as a solid realese and a fun army, with a great sinergy in between the units and many fun builds.
I keep thinking they did make a really good job with the DJ, he is the new troll as how he should be

 Waaagh 18 wrote:

 Sick Bag wrote:
Ever play Orks?

I know exactly how you feel. My greatest fear is that this new space clown codex will be better than my beloved orks!

I only play orks. I think all the 7th books after orks have been better =(

Harlequins are already looking sstronger than orks rules wise.

We could convert up some"mad boyz" and use them as harlequins. Crazy ork clowns would be amusing lol

did not read what everyone else said but yes they are not a stand alone army. But the old rules they were killing machines. I think they should have made them the killing machines the stories make them out to be but that doesnt sell as well

 Doonan wrote:
did not read what everyone else said but yes they are not a stand alone army. But the old rules they were killing machines. I think they should have made them the killing machines the stories make them out to be but that doesnt sell as well

Maybe you SHOULD read the previous comments. (as well as the leaked rules)
They're looking more and more like a standalone force. As for "killing machines"; I have a feeling that if you can get them there, in close combat they will be.

A stand alone force that lacks an HQ choice...

 Crablezworth wrote:
A stand alone force that lacks an HQ choice...

A force who's detachment doesn't have any HQ slots to fill.

Codex: Harlequins overview.
Space clowns. Not wave serpents.

I bought the Codex this weekend. I like it.
A local independant shop had it to my surprise, i kind of expected it a week later...

The units are not OP, but they are allright.
And the formations make it complete.
And in the current meta one thing is of utmost importance: speed.
And Harlequins really do have speed.

If you field a complete Harlequin army (masque) you can re-roll invulnerable saves of 1 with the whole army.
An army with what effectively is a 4+ save (including vehicles and 3+ solitaire) , that is not a bad thing at all.
Also all models may run and charge in the same turn and the warlord (if a troupe master) may re-roll warlord trait.

There are also smaller formations that give run+fleet for an infantry formation or re-roll jink saves for a jetbike/skimmer formation.

Ik have been waiting for this codex for a long time.
I have unpainted Harlequins from 1st to current edition and both eldar and dark eldar models (lots of (harlequin) jetbikes, transports, infantry) to work on a big Harlequin project.
But there never was a good reason to start this project.

Now there is a good reason.
The Codex is not what i hoped it to be, too few units, still no mimes, no great harlequin (the lord and the opposing player of the solitaire), but it is enough to make something i like.
I plan to build a Harlequin army with Eldar and/or Dark Eldar as allies (not the other way around).
Eldar will be on jetbikes, Dark eldar on raiders or jetbikes.

Are they intended to be an army? I thought they were like assassins, designed as a bolt on detachment for Eldar and Dark Eldar armies? Never considered using them as a stand-alone force tbh.

Yes, they're a standalone army. That's why they have their own codex instead of a codex supplement or a dataslate.

 Crablezworth wrote:
A stand alone force that lacks an HQ choice...

An HQ choice isnt necessary.

f you field a complete Harlequin army (masque) you can re-roll invulnerable saves of 1 with the whole army.

I assume that just Harlequins in the specific formation /detachment whatever and not anything that is in your army ?

Anything being from any Codex - like say Dark Eldar Shadowfields

 Mr Morden wrote:

f you field a complete Harlequin army (masque) you can re-roll invulnerable saves of 1 with the whole army.

I assume that just Harlequins in the specific formation /detachment whatever and not anything that is in your army ?

Anything being from any Codex - like say Dark Eldar Shadowfields

Yeah, you're right, it only applies to members of that specific detachment.

 Ghaz wrote:
Yes, they're a standalone army. That's why they have their own codex instead of a codex supplement or a dataslate.

In the proud tradition of other stand alone codex's like inquisition, legion of the damned and assassins...

*edit oh and militarum tempestus and imperial knights

 Crablezworth wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
Yes, they're a standalone army. That's why they have their own codex instead of a codex supplement or a dataslate.

In the proud tradition of other stand alone codex's like inquisition, legion of the damned and assassins...

I like how you only name the digital ones, but leave out Imperial Knights and Militarum Tempestus.

Wait, did that guy just say he has the codex? You magnificent bastard! I'm not going to be able to get mine for weeks, you say the masque detachment gives rerolls of 1 on saves? I hadn't heard that benefit listed anywhere. How did I miss that? It make me exceptionally happy

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
Yes, they're a standalone army. That's why they have their own codex instead of a codex supplement or a dataslate.

In the proud tradition of other stand alone codex's like inquisition, legion of the damned and assassins...

I like how you only name the digital ones, but leave out Imperial Knights and Militarum Tempestus.

Sorry, forgot about those, I'll add those two.

The codex (from what I've read of it mind you) seem like a fairly fun deal along the lines of assasins, inquisition, etc.

However, what's getting my goat lately is the tournament scene basically not supporting these as stand alone products due to their restrictions on detatchments and the like. Limiting formations I think is needed but not giving any allowances to these stand alone forces means that you can almost never field them except as a 1-2 trick pony i.e. forget the inquistion codex in a competitive setting by itself, roll a standard dex and just use 1-2 buffers from the inquisition if you really need them. Gone are the days of a full inquisition force. You just don't have enough stuff to deal with all the things out there. (i.e. lack enough FoC's like fortifications or low box not to mention any fliers or mc's)

Heck, even GK suffer from this as that dex has so few unit selections that you almost always end up taking allies to make it competiive (major tournament competitve, not talking about local fluff games)

Long rant aside, I think the major tournaments need to start making allowances for some of these stand alone dex's to be allowed greater ability to ally with itself at the very least or have expanded FoC slots as what GW is doing vs what the major tournaments are doing is clashing more and more.

 sudojoe wrote:
The codex (from what I've read of it mind you) seem like a fairly fun deal along the lines of assasins, inquisition, etc.

However, what's getting my goat lately is the tournament scene basically not supporting these as stand alone products due to their restrictions on detatchments and the like. Limiting formations I think is needed but not giving any allowances to these stand alone forces means that you can almost never field them except as a 1-2 trick pony i.e. forget the inquistion codex in a competitive setting by itself, roll a standard dex and just use 1-2 buffers from the inquisition if you really need them. Gone are the days of a full inquisition force. You just don't have enough stuff to deal with all the things out there. (i.e. lack enough FoC's like fortifications or low box not to mention any fliers or mc's)

Heck, even GK suffer from this as that dex has so few unit selections that you almost always end up taking allies to make it competiive (major tournament competitve, not talking about local fluff games)

Long rant aside, I think the major tournaments need to start making allowances for some of these stand alone dex's to be allowed greater ability to ally with itself at the very least or have expanded FoC slots as what GW is doing vs what the major tournaments are doing is clashing more and more.

What gets my goat is calling long dataslates codex's. Codex should be synonymous with faction in my opinon for the simple reason that allies exist as an option anyway. My preferences is still always going to be one codex vs another codex (codex = faction) outside of casual/fluff games.

Is the lack of an HQ really that much of a deal breaker for people? Calling Harlequins "not a codex" just doesn't make sense to me. They got 4 new units, warlord traits, unique command benefits and a unique psychic discipline. The level of customization on the basic troupe is such that you can field dozens of different weapons configurations that will allow you to specialize them against different targets. It seems like a codex to me.

By that same logic, Blood Angels and Space Wolves shouldn't be considered codexes either, because they are just basically Marines with a couple unique characters and special units bolted on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 sudojoe wrote:
The codex (from what I've read of it mind you) seem like a fairly fun deal along the lines of assasins, inquisition, etc.

However, what's getting my goat lately is the tournament scene basically not supporting these as stand alone products due to their restrictions on detatchments and the like. Limiting formations I think is needed but not giving any allowances to these stand alone forces means that you can almost never field them except as a 1-2 trick pony i.e. forget the inquistion codex in a competitive setting by itself, roll a standard dex and just use 1-2 buffers from the inquisition if you really need them. Gone are the days of a full inquisition force. You just don't have enough stuff to deal with all the things out there. (i.e. lack enough FoC's like fortifications or low box not to mention any fliers or mc's)

Heck, even GK suffer from this as that dex has so few unit selections that you almost always end up taking allies to make it competiive (major tournament competitve, not talking about local fluff games)

Long rant aside, I think the major tournaments need to start making allowances for some of these stand alone dex's to be allowed greater ability to ally with itself at the very least or have expanded FoC slots as what GW is doing vs what the major tournaments are doing is clashing more and more.

Exalted.

and yes, i AM very lucky to have the Codex.

I went to a local shop for an x-wing tournament and to my surprise i saw the Harlequin Codex and all the new models standing (the Troupe, the Skyweavers and the Starweaver/Voidweaver), so i just bought it all :-)

Had a bad dice-day of x-wing, but a good battle due to the Harlequin stuff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And in regard to it being a complete codex:

Most of the artwork is new (other than in most codexes)

There are several complete masques different painted differently in the coxex (other than in most codexes, where it is mostly one colour for all and a few models painted differently)

The warlord traits are very Harlequin and the units are new and they will do.

The codex is quite complete, but it is rather minimal.

In the background i would have liked more details regarding the different dances they perform.
In the rules i would have liked regular jetbikes and, as i mentioned before, the mimes and the troupe master (great harlequin, the laughing god), especially because the last one is so important in the background.
The complete focus in regard to the most powerfull model is on the solitaire now, but IMO that is not right.

I really wish GW would go back to pushing out rulesets that push options and niche things. Since Chapterhouse, they've been nuking all units without kits which sucks. But then they seem to be going further and nuking options not on the standard sprue. I can't give an Archon a Power Lance because its not on sprue? Wtf? I could understand no axe, maybe. I don't even need it to be cost-effective (Power Lance on an Avenger Exarch? Probably the worst option, but looks badass. Glad I can - and do). But I want the options.

I could see the Troop Master being unlikely to carry an axe, but a Lance would look sweet. Heck, the Skyweaver lance on a Troop Master might look freaking awesome (may do anyways). But its not on the sprue. So its not in the rules. And with GW moving more to clampacks, this could get much, much worse. Just look at the trends and rumors in WHFB.

That said, its still a lot more customizable than my Warmahordes or Infinity.

And they released an Harlie codex. I'm fine if it can never win a battle. It means I can take that unit of Harlies that my Craftworlders/Exodites/Corsairs/someday Dark Citiers keep being seen with, and give them a fitting transport in a bound list!

... Or so we thought. The options for bound, apparently are:
-Minimum 7 in one troupe, too big for their DT
-Minimum 3 units, but each can be in its own DT
-Unbound

So my options remain what they've always been since 7th came out: unbound, or ally DE for a Raider or WWP.

And converting some DE to be Harlies - in -training is a lot less reasonable now that Harlies have their own codex.

(Preferred difference - Troup formation require DJ *or* Shadowseer)

So the TLR is:
I'm very happy that Harlies got a codex! That said, the progression of limiting choices, even while adding units, is distasteful. And the codex was so close to being exactly what I wanted.

7/10 GW imo.

It seems like you missed a few formations that expand on said options, and make the list more flexible.

And I for one like that whole "formations, not units" styling. it reduces minmaxing and enforces that at the very least armies will be slightly varied, unlike the horribly outdated FoC charts. (though the new army-spesific charts are interesting at times)

If 'Expands', you mean gives me the option to take things I didn't want, but no troups, yeah, I missed a bunch.

Of the other 2 that allow a Troup, one requres 3 Troups (two formations have that requirement), and the other requires bikes, but doesn't allow a Shadowseer or Death Jester.

Figured I didn't need to list all 6.

I'm glad you enjoy the formation-style army building. Different strokes for different folks.

"It's a complete army!"
"It can't compete on it's own."

Then it's not a complete army. It's a supplement.

It can compete on its own, this army has more haywire options per capita than anyone besides tau with fire warriors! They have weapons that wound or glance without needing to wound or attempt armor pen, they have invulnerable saves all over the place, their psyckers have a primaries that makes it impossible to shoot them from more than 24" away! Fast open topped transports, dedicated mobile long range firepower, the ability to completely destroy enemy moral( better than the dark eldar even) what is out there they cannot answer? In order for wave serpents to even shoot at them, they need to get within charge range. Boggles the mind.

This may become my next army. I'm absolutely inlove and will gladly run these as their own. Don't mess up and they can easily take out a Grey Knight Army. You need only to stay away from their shots and get the upper hand and they'll easily crumble behind the Quins in combat/DJ shots. And above all that, they look awesome as hell!

I will build a Harlequin army.
I will build a complete army (1 solitaire, 3 death jester, 3 shadowseer, 3 troupe, 2 skyweaver units, 1 voidweaver).

Eldar jetbikes as allies, instead of the rules for Harlequin jetbikes i hoped for. But this will do fine.

I will paint Eldar and Dark Eldar as allies, but will build those so i could take them as primary detachment if i wanted to (and take Harlequins as allies).

the_scotsman wrote:
Unless the rules for the Shadowseer, Death Jester, Masque and Enigmas turn out to be some level of absolutely absurd, that is.

If you bring Harlequins, you need your opponent to have:

-No high toughness Death Star units (wraith guards, spawn, Bikers, Grotesques, whatever) and no Monstrous creatures (wraithknights, Riptides, Dreadknights) because everything's gotta be REALLY scared of S3/4 AP - melee attacks.

-NO Superheavies, because harlies rely on some incredibly piddly anti tank options in terms of volume of fire. A IK would probably take three turns to shoot down with a full 2000pt harlequin army

-No flyers, because anti-air options don't exist. Or flying MCs for that matter. That's okay those aren't common.

-No ignores cover. Because all the vehicles foot infantry and bikes rely pretty heavily on cover saves.

-No invisibility, because it makes your uber high WS pointless. But nobody takes that power anyway.

They just seem like an army of everything that is the absolute worst stuff to take in the game right now. I get that you're supposed to make up their weaknesses with Eldar and DE, but in what situation would I not just want Dire Avengers in a WS or Kabalites in a Raider over harlequins? The only armies I can think of that wouldn't have to specifically try to construct a list for the harlies to stand a chance against are guard and sisters.

Sometimes I wonder, when they come out with the Necron rules and the Harlequin rules back to back, does anyone at GW play test anything? Or even talk to each other?

My son runs Eldar, so I grabbed a few White Dwarfs. And the Harlies look like a perfectly viable force. I think you will want to Batttle Brother in some DE or Craftworlders though. As far as AT, Harlies look to have "Haywire, and plenty of it!" as their best, first answer.

My strongest objection, is they will be a royal Pain to paint!