Ok, this is a little bit of a vent/rant for me. So apologies up front for that.

First for those that don't know me, a little background:

I've been painting for over 25 years, as a professional service for the last 6 (and a few times here and there before).
I've done competition (golden demon winning standard - by this I mean I came 2nd to the sword), studio (box and publicity work) as well as a large number of private commissions.
I'm pretty open about the techniques I use, the time I take, and I communicate prolifically.

So anyway, yesterday I get an email:

Client wrote:
Hi guys,
I am looking for a price on a army of tau empire in a high quality paint scheme worthy of a cabinet.

The models I'm looking to paint is...

1) tau ethereal
1) battle suit commander
2)fire warrior squads 24 models total
2) kroot squads 24 models total
1) unit of 10 path finders
6) battle suits 2 squads of 3
3) broadsides
1) riptide
11) drones
2) hammerheads
1) unit of 3 stealth suits

So, a big job then - near 60 infantry, a half-dozen character level jobs, plus a fair few battle suits, tanks etc. And to high standard. I crank the numbers and reckon it'll be sitting a way north of 500 hours on first estimates.

I used to get involved doing an item-by-item breakdown on enquiries like this. More often than not this led to no response from the client, so these days I throw out a quick estimate of turnaround time and total cost before putting out a firm quote (that I stick to regardless of if things slip).

In this case, we're looking between 500 and 650 working hours, depending on schemes, running in at north of £4,000 - £4,200 ($6000+). Making an approximate hourly rate of £6.95 / $10. So, dirt cheap really, but for what I do it seems to be close to the competitive mark. I spread this over 6-9 months to allow higher paying jobs to keep cash flowing.
If the client doesn't run off at that, I usually tweak up the hourly rate when preparing the firm quote to something more reasonable if they're wanting a specific timescale, or leave it low if it's a 'whenever' job that I can do other work around.

Ballpark figure goes out to the client - £4,000 - £4,200 not including model or shipping costs, 6month+ turnaround, lead time of at least 6 months, probably not until Christmas (I'm very busy right now).

And I get:

Client wrote:
Good god no!!! How did you workout that price? That's crazy... Thanks but no thanks.

So how did I work out the price? Experience and math. Not rocket science, not magic, and not by having a root round up my... it's left me annoyed to be honest, more so than the usual zero response. And it's probably a low estimate by the time people start talking about extra freehand or decal design work, oddball basing...

It seems that there's a common reckoning that commission studios should do intense, skilled work for far below what their workers could get painting a wall, or flipping burgers or possibly there's a misconception on the amount of work involved?

So seriously, if you're interested in hiring a professional painter, please don't be insulting about it. And if you can't afford to pay $25 per infantry figure don't ask for high level work.

I guess their cabinet had solid, opaque doors?

I guess that the majority of people have no real idea how long it takes to paint and then to a high enough standard to be considered presentation worthy.

Dude, I've always enjoyed your work and your input about painting. Don't ruin your rep for being a good professional by venting about a single idiot.

I feel you though, in my line of work I estimate jobs and present it to potential clients. Sometimes it's amazing how little people value a skilled professional doing the work for them. I always consider a job Idon't get as confirmation that some people just can't afford me. Not everybody wants Wal-mart quality work though so chin up!

Aye, probably shouldn't vent, but sometimes you have to just to keep sane. :-p I'll keep it rare.

From the service side, it's tricky to judge market values in this industry though - nobody really puts out fixed prices / hourly rates - every job is different, and every service will do something faster, some slower, and vary in style as well as standard. Far too many variables at play.

For a client, you just need to think about roughly how much time is involved- a good rule of thumb is around 3 hours per infantry model, 8 for characters, and multiply that for larger models based on surface area. Then figure on a painter wanting to get a half decent hourly rate on that.

I think it's because you do something others would love to do themselves if they had the talent, so even if they have thought about how long a given project would take (and they probably haven't) they assume you'll do it cheap because you enjoy it, and don't think about the fact it is your job, and you need to charge accordingly. That guy was probably thinking 'If I could do it, I'd charge a tenner each, so call it a grand tops ...'.

I don't think a quick rant on here will make those who know your work think any less of you either

You're not their mate painting their army for the love of it, but I think some people assume that commissions will be priced as such. If you go cheap you risk getting a BTP job.

I was once offered material costs + a bottle of beer for a scratch-build that took me from dawn to dusk to make. Good deal.

Apparently the client here has 2 companies offering to turn around (build and paint) the project in 3 months (not impossible, but would certainly require dedicating more studio space than I would be comfortable with), at 1/8 the cost (so about £500 / $750).

For over 80 models, including several large vehicles, battlesuits etc.

Good luck with that and I think you'll be disappointed, says I.

This here illustrates a point that's quite important - there are services that offer this sort of pricing; but from what I can tell they tend to be new, untested and very often poor quality.

There are a few that do great work at very low cost for what you get (SE Asia / Malaysia, Poland, Ukraine, Russia), but more and more these places look to charge living wage for where their client base is (generally US / Western Europe) rather than where they themselves are. Fair play, that's a free market economy for you.

Dangerosly, in many cases though, underquoting services are actually not services or companies at all - they're a single kid with a website. You can look forward to your booking competing with school, college, and parents telling the kid to go out and get a life. The usual sign of this is someone charging way under living wage - if you're looking at paying pocket money to someone, chances are they're actually just looking for pocket money, which begs the question how do they live?

I'm kind of left shaking my head that the client's seeming to refuse to think about what they're actually asking for.

i will say most people have no ideae what commision painting cost ... or even do not value it at the level it does cost.

I know someone who was quoted by a friend to paint a baneblade for $150 (for a very high quality job) and he said "dear god! no way I would pay that much" He later sai he thought it would be about $25 for a regular tank and maybe $50 for a baneblade.

I think a lot of it comes down to peoples perception of the value of time. You are fighting the price in the UK of course but no one can expect you to compete with price in China.

I think skilled labor is something not a lot of people understand. At the end of the day they are paying for your untold hours of practice and experience.

I can have a local band come play at my party for dirt cheap, but it would cost quite a bit more to have Prince come out for a night.

 tenebre wrote:
i will say most people have no ideae what commision painting cost ... or even do not value it at the level it does cost.

The artist Phil Foglio has a pricing matrix for his custom art with ..

1.Size
2. Detail
3. Price

The customer gets to pick two..

I know that I am guilty of one time or another thinking "wow, that is really expensive" when seeing a price list at a commission service.

But when I think of it, this is as it should be. As you say, I think most people who paint walls earn quite a bit more per hour than miniature painters :( This makes me really sad. Sure you can forget sometime, but when you actually go ask for a quote you need to think this through.

If I would ask for a quote on a commission I think I would start with something like "how long would it take me" x "how much would I like to charge per hour" giving you a ballpark. And I am pretty sure the quote you get will almost always be lower than the number you come up with yourself.

 tenebre wrote:
i will say most people have no ideae what commision painting cost ... or even do not value it at the level it does cost.

I know someone who was quoted by a friend to paint a baneblade for $150 (for a very high quality job) and he said "dear god! no way I would pay that much" He later sai he thought it would be about $25 for a regular tank and maybe $50 for a baneblade.

I think a lot of it comes down to peoples perception of the value of time. You are fighting the price in the UK of course but no one can expect you to compete with price in China.

For a high end tabletop quality Baneblade, I'd be looking at charging £450 / 3 week turnaround ballpark. It's a big beastie with a lot to do on it. Pushing to competition grade and £1000+ is easily reachable.

I had a j-hole once trying to get me to paint daemons, i gave him dirt cheap estimates, far below even you, cause its still a hobby for me and it was gonna be mostly drybrush and washes anyway. Once we'd worked out prices and logistics and all that, he drops that he wants to pay in unopened boxes of daemons, and that he figured itd be fair to just consider the box prices equivalent payment instead of cash.

Some people are morons.

There is one rule for the industrialist and that is: Make the best quality of goods possible at the lowest cost possible, paying the highest wages possible. Henry Ford said this and he meant it.

The sad part is that the vast majority of companies nowadays are at the opposite end of the spectrum. Most people do not understand that quality is something you pay for. I know the vast majority of people drop their jaws when I explain to them that in all actuality I get paid right around $50 an hour for what I do. Problem being that I bring so many certifications to the table that it is not even funny. Honestly I have about 50% of my certs in my wallet at all times (really only carry the ones most asked for) and I can not carry any money in said wallet.

If you do quality work, you can get paid for it. It sounds like you know how to paint much better than I and you should get paid better for it. I am not willing to do commissions because I feel that my work is not worthy of it, oddly enough I do get people that ask me to do work for them. To reiterate, if they understood what is actually involved with the work, they would be better prepared to pay a higher price for better quality.

 Genoside07 wrote:

 tenebre wrote:
i will say most people have no ideae what commision painting cost ... or even do not value it at the level it does cost.

The artist Phil Foglio has a pricing matrix for his custom art with ..

1.Size
2. Detail
3. Price

The customer gets to pick two..

Heh. This is a take on the construction adage: "We do 3 kinds of work here. You get to pick one. Good, Cheap, and Quick. "

Well, we all have grown up to China sweatshop prices.
Unreasonable expectations of low price are the norm.
Heck, at $10 an hour I would say it is a deal.
Showing an example cabinet grade model with 4 hours, assemble, file, prime and paint.
The person who ticked you off either wanted it almost free or envisioned their own "block painting" as your standard.
Having your skills devalued is infuriating, that is the risk when hobby becomes work and meets customers.
Feel good in knowing "that guy" will not get what he wants in the end.

I think it's just a matter of "sticker shock." In the original example, the army itself only costs, what, about 10-15% of the quoted painting price? That's probably what was going through the customer's mind.
I do think most people realize that a good paintjob costs more, but I don't think they realize how much time goes into it, and time is the real cost.

I'm going to try to play devils advocate here and, probably end up offending half the forum.

Could this then mean that there is a niche available for 'cheap' and 'quick' painting?

I've often had a look around the gallery or blogs etc and seen models that people have labelled as 'tabletop quality' and thought, "yeah, eff that, I'd only ever practically see one guy in a busy GW, or a 1 guy per games system at a club that'd paint even remotely near that 'tabletop standard.'

I've seen Winterdyne's work before and yeah, it's awesome, amazing, gorgeous, a work of art. But, I think, there's a lot of people out there who don't need works of art. Those that'd be really quite happy with a base painting marginally better than a typical overenthusiastic 12 year olds and then some Army Painter Dip to really set the models off.

I just think that not only is there a gulf between the Artist and the Masses like you're all saying, but that it actually works both ways.

I don't think you'll offend anyone, in fact, I'd go so far as to say as that's what the likes of BTP are already doing, and if they were honest and upfront about what they were offering, both with themselves and their customers, there would probably be a lot less ill feeling circulating about them right now.

There is nearly always a market for a budget version of anything that exists as a premium item, the potential for conflict is only present when there's a disconnect between expectations and results, either in this case, where the standard on offer was likely in reality far higher than the customer thought, or in the case of the recent CD BTP thread, where the results fell somewhat short of what the customer had been sold.

There might very well be a difference between what's being asked and what's offered. but then again, if you don't specify what you mean exactly by "high quality" then the painter will have to fill that blank in himself.

To be honest, when I first started looking into commission work I was a bit turned of by the prices aswell. Ofcourse then I started calculating the time it would take me to paint stuff and most seem pretty reasonable.

For what's in the top post, even BTP at bargin paint prices would be asking twice what the custermer said they have a quote for. 750$ gets what. 33 mins a mini max at minimum wage ? Not including paint, brushes, water cup.
At that price do they even want them Nicly prepared, taking it outside and spraying them all could take a hour or 2 at a rush pace :0

That price is cutting it real low, even lower than bargain prices.

I myself as others have had commission painting, and at $20 a mini my painter was pushed for spead over quality.

Perhaps it would be good to include some samples of your idea of "display cabinet quality" with your response.

As others have said, the client's idea and your idea of high quality may be miles apart.

Just out of curiosity, did you reply to his second email?

I had my army commissioned because I am a teacher - and rarely have time (if any at all) to paint any of my minis. He is a friend, so for about 33 bikes, some vehicles, and some other things, he just charged me model price.

Paid him, absolutely happy with the project - but of course got slightly irritated when a kid asked me how much did that cost you, and then gave a me a number so far below what I paid it actually upset me.

There is a huge misconception between time and money - I guess that as you get older that misconception disappears. I know that I get paid as a teacher roughly 100 a day (making it easy), so that is about $14 an hour...... it would make sense that some one putting in a lot of work into painting gets paid that much.

But again, that is our reality, vs. those who have had people pay things for them :/

Now that being said - one more thing that pisses me off about what that person told winterdyne is the time limit. I had ample amounts of time to put away money for the commission he painted (for easy maths, lets say it was $1000, and it was a 5 month long commission, thats $200 a month to put away... really not that much).

Sorry for the rant... its just annoying to hear this

fidel wrote:


There is a huge misconception between time and money - I guess that as you get older that misconception disappears. I know that I get paid as a teacher roughly 100 a day (making it easy), so that is about $14 an hour...... it would make sense that some one putting in a lot of work into painting gets paid that much.

Hits in on the head for me, right here.

I'm a decent painter, so I wouldn't ever commission someone that paints below my 'normal' standard. Just wouldn't do it. But I also know high quality painters are expensive because they're A) talented, and B) have the time to dedicated to doing high level painting that I, quite frankly, don't have the time or ability at present to do (because, as we all know, to increase ability it requires time!).

I expect to pay $40+ for a single character mini if I'm going to get something commissioned, and the $40 is probably low.

Based on what I've seen of your work, Winterdyne, I certainly think your time is more valuable than $10 an hour. Please don't let idiots like that discourage you.

I can't speak from a painting perspective, since I'm a sculptor, but I've noticed in the last year a lot of people I talk to about prospective commissions seem to have a lower and lower expectation of what it will cost.

Digital sculpting and 3D printing has had an obvious effect, most digital sculptors I know don't charge nearly as much as traditional sculptors.

I once had someone contact me to sculpt a custom Terminator Marine Captain for his army, sent me all the artwork to use as reference and wanted a "Forge World Level of quality" and then balked when I quoted him $700 for it. I should have charged him $1000 but I liked his ideas and thought it was a cool project. Oh, and he wanted it in 2 weeks so he could get it pro-painted for a tournament.

That isn't an isolated case. I get that 2-3 times a month.

There was an interesting post by Tom Meier about cost and supply&demand, if I can find it I'll update this post with a link.

Maybe the commission painting aspect of the hobby is now being affected in the same manner? There are now so many commission painters offering services that clients have more choice so from their perspective costs should be lower.

There needs to be more research by clients and more understanding that though commission painting looks like it's just an extension of your hobby, it's a job.

"Speed, quality, cost: pick two" applies to any kind of skilled labor. I've seen it on this board in comission painting discussions, I've seen it on an armouring board I frequented for many years, and I have to actively restrain myself from hammering it into potential customers that come to my counter looking to frame their artwork. I fully believe that a large part of the issue is simple ignorance on the client's end. This isn't comparison shopping for identical items from an established brand - there's no simple baseline estimate for cost. I could try to explain that what they think is a fair price barely covers the material costs. I could send them to any competitor with a detailed description of their desired design and tell them to ask for a quote. In the end, though, they have a set value in their mind and there's little changing that, regardless of how unrealistic it may be.

I explain to them what they're getting and what it costs - they can take it or leave it (in a somewhat less brusque manner, of course - I'd like to keep my job ). If they need to lower costs, we need to pare back the design. If they need it faster, they either have to pay for expedited shipping of materials or buy something off the shelf. Oh, you'll just go somewhere else? Be my guest - our main competitor farms out their framing and takes even longer and the local galleries charge even more (as expected - they have more of the 'fine arts' mystique and don't benefit as much from the economy of scale). Sometimes, you just have to shake your head and wait for those gems that have been around the block and know that what you're charging is fair, whether your quote is for construction, custom framing, or a model painting comission. Being that you (and others like you) have done business before, I'd say those customers exist.

TLDR: I feel for you.

This is one of the reasons I stopped trying to offer higher quality painting. I rather spend 40 hours assembling and painting 80 miniatures for $600 then 10 in the same amount of time $200. Those 80 miniatures are not going to showcase level and my clients understand that. Once the price per miniature goes over $10 for a standard infantry model expectations skyrocket. I go for a basic clean tabletop standard, something that will look like good at about 4' away. If someone wants better I direct them elsewhere.

Being able to balance time and quality is really what makes a successful commission painter. Aaron Lovejoy of Guild painting service held a seminar on Commission painting at LVO. He brought up a really good point that you are only getting paid when you are putting paint on a model everything else is not making the painter money. All the other things need to be factored into the painting cost like packing and shipping, Photography,communication, etc.

 Compel wrote:
I'm going to try to play devils advocate here and, probably end up offending half the forum.

Could this then mean that there is a niche available for 'cheap' and 'quick' painting?

I've often had a look around the gallery or blogs etc and seen models that people have labelled as 'tabletop quality' and thought, "yeah, eff that, I'd only ever practically see one guy in a busy GW, or a 1 guy per games system at a club that'd paint even remotely near that 'tabletop standard.'

I've seen Winterdyne's work before and yeah, it's awesome, amazing, gorgeous, a work of art. But, I think, there's a lot of people out there who don't need works of art. Those that'd be really quite happy with a base painting marginally better than a typical overenthusiastic 12 year olds and then some Army Painter Dip to really set the models off.

I just think that not only is there a gulf between the Artist and the Masses like you're all saying, but that it actually works both ways.

You won't offend anyone. There's a service that advertises here for quick and cheap "table top" quality minis.

And there's zero wrong with that at all if you're up front about it. THe problem becomes when you charge premium rates for ever so slightly better than table-top with lots of inconsistencies (different shades of red, details done on one mini in a unit, but not others, etc).

Honestly, i've thought about using the table top service myself, as i paint well, but very slowly. If i used that service i could get all my basecoating done delivered to me, and i could spend my time doing the detail work.

There definitely is a niche for neat, basic (and I don't mean this in a derogatory sense) work.

It is however very difficult to hit - I reckon probably 25% of my time is taken purely in cleanup and assembly through to priming, then another 40-50% in hitting a neat basic level (block colours, up to first washes) - basically where you'd normally dip a model if going that route.
So you're still doing close to 75% of the work, for a fraction of the money.

There's also a distinct problem in 'dialling back' the standard of work - and this is the main reason I only work the higher end stuff. It takes a phenomenal amount of discipline to actually stop at a flat base colour and single, not necessarily fine line highlight; the natural instinct of the painter is to neaten up and make it look nice. 'Good enough' is a concept more easily seen on the gaming tabletop from 3' away, not on the painting desk.

But if you can get that process fast and efficient, there's certainly profit to be made there; I think a dipped army production line could do extremely well - and to some extent they do in historical miniatures circles.

Maz I love your work and given the time and commitment you put into it I think your rates are very reasonable. I certainly understand where you're coming from, I've shopped around my services as a sculptor and also for casting and people constantly freak out about the prices.

For a sculpt I typically quote $500-$600, but that's based on an average of 40-50 hours of work. Typically they reply that they are expecting to pay in the $200-$300ish range. I think if people were aware of the time it takes they might start to realize that the pricing most artists charge is actually very low.

Artists also put extensive amounts of time into developing their skills and very few people consider that, you're supposed to work for $5-$10 an hour with a skill that took years to develop and potentially tens of thousands of dollars to study at school. The average art school costs 30k a year, putting a 4 year degree at $120k+ without any living expenses.Yet artist are expected to magically balance living and paying down their student loans on wages less than what they'd make flipping burgers at Mc Donalds.

You rates are realistic and set by your needs, not somebody's whim. If the quoted price horrifies the masses they likely have no sense in buying art to begin with.

The best counterpoint you can make is ask them how much they expect to make in a week working full time, and try not to laugh when it's 2-3 times what you are asking for the same amount of time. Especially when most artist's work is only done on a temporary basis and there's lots of time where you don't have regular income. Artists need to value their time accordingly and not listen to the crowd droning "I want it as cheap as possible".




There was a really good story that I saw making the rounds not too long ago, don't remember it word for word but here's the overall

An artist is attending a local art fair and a customer spots a really nice bracelet that's priced at $250. The customer scoffs and pulls out her iphone and after several minutes of online searching she approaches the artists. Excuse me sir your bracelet is absolutely beautiful, but it's priced at $250. The artists says yes that's what I'm charging. The customer says that seems like a lot, I did some checking on the price and I can buy all the materials for $83. It seems a bit unfair that you would be charging $250 when it only costs $83 to buy all the parts online. Would you sell me it for $83 instead?

The artist says sure I'll sell you everything the same as what it's listed for online, but it'll take a week. The customer is delighted and scribbles down her address for him.

A week later a box arrives at the customers house and it has the copper wire, gem stones and clasps to make the bracelet with a note saying "here are the items you wanted at the internet pricing. However the artistry, workmanship, and years of experience all cost extra".



.

Rankling, but naturally a lot of the people seeking your services will be bad or inexperienced painters, and having not done so themselves, will be unappreciative or even wholly ignorant of the amount of time and effort required to paint a mini to a high standard. Wouldn't let it bother you.

winterdyne wrote:
There definitely is a niche for neat, basic (and I don't mean this in a derogatory sense) work.

There's also a distinct problem in 'dialling back' the standard of work - and this is the main reason I only work the higher end stuff. It takes a phenomenal amount of discipline to actually stop at a flat base colour and single, not necessarily fine line highlight; the natural instinct of the painter is to neaten up and make it look nice. 'Good enough' is a concept more easily seen on the gaming tabletop from 3' away, not on the painting desk.

But if you can get that process fast and efficient, there's certainly profit to be made there; I think a dipped army production line could do extremely well - and to some extent they do in historical miniatures circles.

Most of what I currently do is historicals. There is plenty of reference material for the paint schemes and normally there is no deviations from the schemes. Most historical players are looking to get their armies on the table painted and be able to identify what units they are in a glance (they tend to be a bit anal about that). Historical units tend to be fairly large and if the front rank is done a bit better then the rest the client will be happy. There are actually very few (at least in the States) painting service that actually do affordable basic painting any more. Check out the Painting service list on TMP and about 2/3 of the listings are dead links.

 Compel wrote:

Could this then mean that there is a niche available for 'cheap' and 'quick' painting?

Of course but that argument doesn't work in this case, the client wanted a high quality army and probably has seen winterdyne's work (why else ask for a quote?). That's like seeing a nice upscale Audi/BMW, wanting one, and then being surprised that it costs more than a Toyota Yaris.

I think about the most important lesson I learnt while doing commission work was that if you don't at least occasionally get a prospective client say 'Dear God, that's ridiculous!' you're probably not charging enough.


The thing is, a lot of people who pay others to do this work don't see the 'artistic' side of it. It's just putting paint on toys. And they don't really have an idea of how much work is involved, because they don't do it themselves.

So it's not (I think) so much that people want the world for nothing... it's simply that they don't see the same value in it that the artist does, and so expect it to be much cheaper to do.

So long as you're still getting steady work, it doesn't pay to dwell on those who undervalue what you do. If they don't understand it, that's their loss rather than yours. There's always another client out there who thinks he's getting a bargain.

Could this also be a symptom of the number of commission services now that primarily rely on airbrush work? I'm a decent enough painter and enjoy the hobby, but if I were to commission an army, I can count on one hand the number of people I would even consider for the job, and only a single one--Brandon at GMM--uses an airbrush for the majority of his work.

Let's be honest: airbrushing requires practice, but the learning curve to become good enough at it to impress most tabletop gamers is nowhere near the amount of time invested in learning how to use a brush well. Airbrushes save time, saving the customer money, and a well-airbrushed models hits enough buttons to make people believe they're getting a much higher quality job than may actually be the case.

You could always outsource it to China?

http://www.nekomagic.com/?p=19528

 the_Armyman wrote:
Could this also be a symptom of the number of commission services now that primarily rely on airbrush work? I'm a decent enough painter and enjoy the hobby, but if I were to commission an army, I can count on one hand the number of people I would even consider for the job, and only a single one--Brandon at GMM--uses an airbrush for the majority of his work.

Let's be honest: airbrushing requires practice, but the learning curve to become good enough at it to impress most tabletop gamers is nowhere near the amount of time invested in learning how to use a brush well. Airbrushes save time, saving the customer money, and a well-airbrushed models hits enough buttons to make people believe they're getting a much higher quality job than may actually be the case.

Hmm, not really true I think. You're talking about a difference in style that a lot of painters can switch between. Airbrushing is actually a lot trickier in many ways too.

 insaniak wrote:
I think about the most important lesson I learnt while doing commission work was that if you don't at least occasionally get a prospective client say 'Dear God, that's ridiculous!' you're probably not charging enough.

That's a really good point, and also true of nearly any skilled work.

When I was in Law School, I took a class on Law Practice Management, which focused on the business side of running your own legal practice. The section on setting and explaining fees was incredibly interesting, because it stressed that the clients that give you the most hassle about fees upfront will be problems the whole way through. The professor also agreed with "Foonberg's Rule:" Cash up front, as much as possible. Although I did have an opposing attorney tell me the story of when he represented an "earthy" gentleman who eventually admitted he could not pay even the small bill he had accrued in cash, but that he had a pig farm and could set up the lawyer with a full pig roast...

The world is full of people that want something for nothing, and every free lancer and professional has encountered the "shock" when people realize how much quality work costs. Its part of being in business.

You need to be fair to people and realise they probably have little concept of how long things take. Even gamers who aren't looking for commission painters, how many gamers embark on collecting an army and after 1 unit realise they've bitten off more than they can chew. I would say most gamers don't know how long it takes them from opening a box to producing a finished squad/regiment/tank.whatever.

I think the best you can do is say "to paint these models to that standard will probably take me around about that many hours, so it will cost around this much. It may sound like a lot, but you'll find that people charging less are spending less time on it and probably won't produce as good results".

People understand that time costs money, they probably just don't have a realistic concept of how much time it takes to do something.

Even though I work with professionals, they still sometimes get shocked when I tell them how much it'll cost them if they want me to do a project for them. When it comes to your average joe it's even worse because they usually have no concept of how long a project will take nor how much I'd expect to be paid per hour.

There is a reason why I only ever paint commissions for friends anymore.

Not just on miniatures that people are like this - I have friends that are professional artists - and people are always shocked by how much paintings cost and how long the commission will take. (One was painting ACW scenes for quite a while - because the Civil War enthusiasts were always polite, and paid promptly and without complaint. For all I know Claus could still be painting them, I haven't seen him in about a decade.)

The Auld Grump

Funny, I was thinking of other problems as well or "risks" of the business.
The weather or the can of primer I had was a bit off and I got paint "cracking" on some models but not others (suspecting not good enough cleaning of mold release off sprue contributed, it was spraying on kinda strange).
Any number of things can set-back a project so expecting a rock-bottom price is looking more foolish as risks mount.
Packaging and shipping insurance alone is looking prohibitive depending on where finished product needs to go.

Air-brush is a good thing to bring up, I just got into it for the last two years and nothing does block painting faster and saves paint.
I do not even want to think how long my 100 IG/AM foot sloggers would have taken by my traditional brush method.

Somewhere in one of my threads I had talked to some fellow who painted a FANTASTIC looking FW dreadnaught and said it took 1/2 an hour, I could not believe it.
He was kind enough to put a watch in the frame and show step by step how he did it in 20 minutes, utterly disgusting (10 minutes of small detail with brush to go after).
Needless to say, that is when I decided I wanted an air-brush.

So great skill can save time AND get good results so I am curious if some competitive painting groups may be mainly airbrush?
I checked out some sites and pricing is laid-out quite well with a few:
http://www.centerpieceminiatures.com/commission-work/

Dave here at Dakka is rather prolific: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/514200.page

http://www.golempaintingstudio.co.uk/pricing.htm
http://www.the-vanus-temple.com/warhammer-commission-painting-service/
http://bluetablepainting.com/painting/ Good for block painting??? hehe

Anyway, I liked centerpiece miniatures the most for how it was all defined.
There would be no confusion on the level of painting and cost groupings to suit.

Good luck OP, just do not burn out your love for the hobby OK?

winterdyne wrote:

So how did I work out the price? Experience and math. Not rocket science, not magic, and not by having a root round up my... it's left me annoyed to be honest, more so than the usual zero response. And it's probably a low estimate by the time people start talking about extra freehand or decal design work, oddball basing...

It seems that there's a common reckoning that commission studios should do intense, skilled work for far below what their workers could get painting a wall, or flipping burgers or possibly there's a misconception on the amount of work involved?

So seriously, if you're interested in hiring a professional painter, please don't be insulting about it. And if you can't afford to pay $25 per infantry figure don't ask for high level work.

I suspect that guy might have been coming into the search with a frame of mind relating the cost of painting to the cost of the model. Also, someone looking at painted armies sale prices on ebay might naively and incorrectly think that is the same price as commisioning the army of his dreams from a reputable painter. Obviously that isn't the case but I could see someone looking into it for the first time thinking that.

When I approached a local painter many years ago (15+) about getting some figs painted, I thought up the price of the paint job in terms of the cost of the models (a $30 tactical marine box shouldn't cost me more than $30 maximum to get painted up to decent tabletop level) even though at a tabletop quality that wouldn't pay minimum wage to assemble/clean/paint/base those 10 figs. Heck, I even thought that 50% over the model price was fair and tried to start negotiation there. I simply didn't think of it from an hourly pay perspective which meant that for those 10 figs that I was expecting a half hour's pay at minimum wage for each fig to go from new on sprue to painted tabletop brushwork quality (the guy didn't own an airbrush). From the correct perspective, that is a ridiculous starting and ending point that I walked into the discussion with. The painter was just as naive at the time and was doing it for pocket money as well so his starting counter offer was actually below my maximum ceilling as well. Neither of us were thinking of how much time it actually took to do the work.

Most buyers generally don't think (or usually care) about actual cost of putting a roof over the painter's head (unless your figs get damaged in the rain!) or food on his table... and, frankly, they don't have to. That is your priority/problem/job as a professional. You quote what you think meets your goals (financial, time, etc) and see if he bites. You do nice work so you will attract folks willing to pay a fair wage for that work. Having your time wasted by lookie-loos is just an unfortunate fact of life in any business where you sell something whether products or services. If he decides to go with the 3rd world international bargain basement offer, he'll at best get what he actually paid for (as opposed to what he expected) and at worst get nothing but a headache and an empty wallet. It's his risk to take.

I have friends who are professional musicians who people also freak out when they hear the actual cost to have a brass quartet play at a wedding.

Usually rule of thumb they have begun using. They say "Call up a plumber or electrician and get an estimate for 5 hours of work. Now take that estimate for 5 hours of work and times it by the 4 people in the quartet. That is what it will cost."

I think one of the problems with commission painting and having 'levels' is once people see your top work, they will never be happy with tier 1. And photos show flaws way more than the human eye. I am a casual painter and would do commisions a long time ago when I was broke so I could keep my hobby fed. I did table-top work. It involved inks and drybrushes but no highlighting. It looks great from a 3-foot distance and pretty good up close.

I dare say in todays world of phtographs on the internet, many would call my stuff not even tier 1 or tabletop quality.

I think a lot of people have really crazy expectations for commission painting. I bet it hurts every day when someone devalues your talent and work as basically being worthless by expecting you to work for basically 1$ an hour.

No one would expect a portrait painter to give a price based on the cost of the canvas.

 warboss wrote:

I suspect that guy might have been coming into the search with a frame of mind relating the cost of painting to the cost of the model. Also, someone looking at painted armies sale prices on ebay might naively and incorrectly think that is the same price as commisioning the army of his dreams from a reputable painter. Obviously that isn't the case but I could see someone looking into it for the first time thinking that.

When I approached a local painter many years ago (15+) about getting some figs painted, I thought up the price of the paint job in terms of the cost of the models (a $30 tactical marine box shouldn't cost me more than $30 maximum to get painted up to decent tabletop level) even though at a tabletop quality that wouldn't pay minimum wage to assemble/clean/paint/base those 10 figs. Heck, I even thought that 50% over the model price was fair and tried to start negotiation there. I simply didn't think of it from an hourly pay perspective which meant that for those 10 figs that I was expecting a half hour's pay at minimum wage for each fig to go from new on sprue to painted tabletop brushwork quality (the guy didn't own an airbrush). From the correct perspective, that is a ridiculous starting and ending point that I walked into the discussion with. The painter was just as naive at the time and was doing it for pocket money as well so his starting counter offer was actually below my maximum ceilling as well. Neither of us were thinking of how much time it actually took to do the work.

There's a few of these sorts of 'services' starting up regularly. The problem is that working at those rates is sustainable only while you have time and support. Usually this means the painter is a schoolkid. As soon as exams / parent interventions / something new and shiny happen, your service disappears. Particularly a problem if the project in hand is a large one (like the one the client in my OP put forward). It's in my interest as a commission painter to ensure that people's interaction with my industry is painless on the whole. A bad rep for the industry means I get fewer enquiries, and fewer enquiries make fewer pennies for feeding my kids.

 warboss wrote:

Most buyers generally don't think (or usually care) about actual cost of putting a roof over the painter's head (unless your figs get damaged in the rain!) or food on his table... and, frankly, they don't have to. That is your priority/problem/job as a professional. You quote what you think meets your goals (financial, time, etc) and see if he bites. You do nice work so you will attract folks willing to pay a fair wage for that work. Having your time wasted by lookie-loos is just an unfortunate fact of life in any business where you sell something whether products or services. If he decides to go with the 3rd world international bargain basement offer, he'll at best get what he actually paid for (as opposed to what he expected) and at worst get nothing but a headache and an empty wallet. It's his risk to take.

Again, yeah, I'm sure he will. It's no skin off my nose - I normally have a waiting list of 6 months to a year, so I'm pretty secure in my own position. The downside is that people running face first into a wall tend to blame the wall, and posts complaining about the commission industry in general hurt the industry. I'm sure all the pro painters agree that that can only be a bad thing for business.

Which is pretty much the core of why I started the thread - part venting, part putting out the advice to potential clients that they should really be realistic in their expectations of a service.

Winter... no offense... but you paint better then 99.9% of other commission painters. Hell, you should charge more. There are a 100~people in the world that can match the quality and only a dozen who paint for money out of those. You have a valid rant.

I know a few local commission painters who may charge 300-400$ for that batch of models - but built and painted quickly within 30-40 hours (If not 100). I myself have taken a 200-300 hour project to get paid in the 500-600 area. Months of painting 200+ model count armies for a small paycheck. Then again, I'm not as skilled as you

Also:

I understand GMM studios prices - and he's an absurdly fast painter. I also looka t yours and see that as "Average" for GD Quality

 Compel wrote:
I'm going to try to play devils advocate here and, probably end up offending half the forum.

Could this then mean that there is a niche available for 'cheap' and 'quick' painting?

I've often had a look around the gallery or blogs etc and seen models that people have labelled as 'tabletop quality' and thought, "yeah, eff that, I'd only ever practically see one guy in a busy GW, or a 1 guy per games system at a club that'd paint even remotely near that 'tabletop standard.'

I've seen Winterdyne's work before and yeah, it's awesome, amazing, gorgeous, a work of art. But, I think, there's a lot of people out there who don't need works of art. Those that'd be really quite happy with a base painting marginally better than a typical overenthusiastic 12 year olds and then some Army Painter Dip to really set the models off.

I just think that not only is there a gulf between the Artist and the Masses like you're all saying, but that it actually works both ways.

I don't want to get too far off topic, as this thread isn't about "quick & cheap" painting... but there's DEFINITELY a market for that.
I'm the Admin in charge of advertisers on Bartertown, and I know from first hand experience that one of our most successful painters there was someone who started out offering exactly that service. His painting levels were "tabletop." Nothing you're going to show off, but it's not going to look like a child dipped it in a bucket of Testors, either. We're talking $3 to $4 US per Infantry model, nothing fancy; base colors, maybe some drybrushing and wash.. His business skyrocketed so fast he actually had to take on a few local guys to him to paint with/for him.
He started to get too busy and had some personal things he needed to take care of, so he did things the right way (stopped taking commissions, finished what was on the plate and closed doors temporarily), but he's talking about reopening the commission business.

There is DEFINITELY a "Q&C market out there.

Eric

winterdyne wrote:
Ok, this is a little bit of a vent/rant for me. So apologies up front for that.

First for those that don't know me, a little background:

I've been painting for over 25 years, as a professional service for the last 6 (and a few times here and there before).
I've done competition (golden demon winning standard - by this I mean I came 2nd to the sword), studio (box and publicity work) as well as a large number of private commissions.
I'm pretty open about the techniques I use, the time I take, and I communicate prolifically.

So anyway, yesterday I get an email:

Client wrote:
Hi guys,
I am looking for a price on a army of tau empire in a high quality paint scheme worthy of a cabinet.

The models I'm looking to paint is...

1) tau ethereal
1) battle suit commander
2)fire warrior squads 24 models total
2) kroot squads 24 models total
1) unit of 10 path finders
6) battle suits 2 squads of 3
3) broadsides
1) riptide
11) drones
2) hammerheads
1) unit of 3 stealth suits

So, a big job then - near 60 infantry, a half-dozen character level jobs, plus a fair few battle suits, tanks etc. And to high standard. I crank the numbers and reckon it'll be sitting a way north of 500 hours on first estimates.

I used to get involved doing an item-by-item breakdown on enquiries like this. More often than not this led to no response from the client, so these days I throw out a quick estimate of turnaround time and total cost before putting out a firm quote (that I stick to regardless of if things slip).

In this case, we're looking between 500 and 650 working hours, depending on schemes, running in at north of £4,000 - £4,200 ($6000+). Making an approximate hourly rate of £6.95 / $10. So, dirt cheap really, but for what I do it seems to be close to the competitive mark. I spread this over 6-9 months to allow higher paying jobs to keep cash flowing.
If the client doesn't run off at that, I usually tweak up the hourly rate when preparing the firm quote to something more reasonable if they're wanting a specific timescale, or leave it low if it's a 'whenever' job that I can do other work around.

Ballpark figure goes out to the client - £4,000 - £4,200 not including model or shipping costs, 6month+ turnaround, lead time of at least 6 months, probably not until Christmas (I'm very busy right now).

And I get:

Client wrote:
Good god no!!! How did you workout that price? That's crazy... Thanks but no thanks.

So how did I work out the price? Experience and math. Not rocket science, not magic, and not by having a root round up my... it's left me annoyed to be honest, more so than the usual zero response. And it's probably a low estimate by the time people start talking about extra freehand or decal design work, oddball basing...

It seems that there's a common reckoning that commission studios should do intense, skilled work for far below what their workers could get painting a wall, or flipping burgers or possibly there's a misconception on the amount of work involved?

So seriously, if you're interested in hiring a professional painter, please don't be insulting about it. And if you can't afford to pay $25 per infantry figure don't ask for high level work.

This is why I stopped doing commissions for the most part and only take on my serious clients. My worst request was 200 dwarves and 30 warmachines, he felt $200 was acceptable for tournament award winning quality and wanted it in 4 weeks. He felt that because it was bulk it lowered the price. When I told him he is short a minimum of $6800 and 5 months (a whopping $300 a week for 34 hours a week painting) he sent all sorts of nasty messages and crapped on my work over a few forums. Its a weird entitlement that people have that think if you can do art easily then you are a human printer that can slave endlessly because its "fun". I have a video that goes on about this but cant post it due to swears, its called " F*** you pay me" its worth looking up and concerns contracts with clients.

I do airbrushing as well and have done everything from the human body to cars. I can put 40 hours into a helmet and get $1500, so when some cheap goob wants me to paint an army for pennies I just pass. Let some one else kill themselves doing a bad job.

Actually that reminds me of another story. Had a guy want me to paint his manta. I put it at 40 hours and $800, and the guy passed, he went to someone else and they just dry brushed it, and he posted it on the forums. Its horrid, and to spend $2000 on a model then cheaping out on paint is just a travesty.

Anyway. Point I'm making is charge whatever you feel your skills are worth, eventually you'll find the people that will pay what you ask and you'll gain a solid clientele of reliable people. Always do your best work or you'll get swamped by these cheapstakes that will constantly try and get you to lower your prices.

I've only dabbled in commissions but am trying to take care to make sure I charge a price I can accept and I feel reflects my efforts and abilities. It is tough sometimes though, as I want people to be satisfied with the quality versus the price they pay, so there is always that little bit of pressure to charge less. Most models I paint take me in the 10-15 hour range, so my quotes usually start at $100 and go up from there (and I'm thinking of increasing that). While this will stun some potential customers it will filter out those who aren't serious, or who believe you should work for peanuts. And my prices aren't even that high as far as display level work goes, compared to some of the top people in the business (which I certainly am not).

 the_Armyman wrote:
Could this also be a symptom of the number of commission services now that primarily rely on airbrush work? I'm a decent enough painter and enjoy the hobby, but if I were to commission an army, I can count on one hand the number of people I would even consider for the job, and only a single one--Brandon at GMM--uses an airbrush for the majority of his work.

Mathieu Fontaine and Tom Schadel both use airbrush for a good portion of their work.

I have a lot of respect for long-term commission guys that have kept up with the demands of their clients, year after year.

Charge what you feel is fair for your quality of work and don't back down from it.

I am a slow painter. It can take me 2-3 hours to paint one bolter marine, much less a rhino or larger tank. A unit of 10 Space Marines is probably 25 hours of work, plus another 15 for their Rhino. That's weekend or afternoon time I'm not spending with my wife. That's time I'm not walking my dog. That's alone time, at a desk, spent on one of my various hobbies. There is no way I could put a $$$ on that time. If I compared it to vacation pay from work, I know I would get laughed at. But so what. If I were to take 40 hours of my weekend or vacation time away from time with my wife to paint something for Joe Customer, you can bet I'd want to be paid for it.

However, I don't think I could do it anyway. I enjoy painting at my own slow speed, when I feel like it. So don't ask.

Assuming the quantities of the army are typed correctly (2 x 24 fire warriors) + (2 x 24 kroot) puts the infantry well over 100 models not 60, and the total model count to 134. Which works in your favor, making the offer seem more reasonable.

However, again assuming that there wasnt a hasty dollar sign typed instead of a pound, even 134 x $25 only equals $3350. Which is about half the $6000 you quoted him, and roughly 4 times the retail cost of the lot. OP probably factors in a markup for the larger models, but i doubt it would be enough to reconcile those totals. Perhaps, even by OP's standards, the customer had a reason to question the calculations.

The "Starving Artist" trope isnt a new one; and the miniatures market seems like the worst medium to try to sustain yourself on. Limiting your customers to the high-end of a niche market which already struggles with prohibitive pricing seems like a nightmare, i wouldnt take it personally that most people misjudge the cost involved, or just arnt interested in your services.

If it helps any, you will get people who will respond that way to any type of service; car repair, home improvement, tailoring, - even important stuff like childcare, etc.

There will always be people who will complain that "they or their brother, cousin, etc. can do it cheaper, etc.". Which doesn't make sense because if they could, then they should just have them do it.

Kiwidru wrote:

However, again assuming that there wasnt a hasty dollar sign typed instead of a pound, even 134 x $25 only equals $3350. Which is about half the $6000 you quoted him, and roughly 4 times the retail cost of the lot. OP probably factors in a markup for the larger models, but i doubt it would be enough to reconcile those totals. Perhaps, even by OP's standards, the customer had a reason to question the calculations.

Are you pulling $25 as some sort of average?

Because If I wanted a quality painted hero/character, I'd expect to be paying at least $50. At least.

Based on the OP's list, here's what I'd expect to pay for something "cabinet quality", with variances per artist, of course.

1) tau ethereal - $100-$300, depending on the artist
1) battle suit commander - $150-$400, depending on the artist
2)fire warrior squads 24 models total - For "cabinet quality", $20-40 per model or $400-950 for the squad
2) kroot squads 24 models total - For "cabinet quality", $20-40 per model or $400-950 for the squad
1) unit of 10 path finders - For "cabinet quality", $20-40 per model $200-$400 for the squad
6) battle suits 2 squads of 3 - $100 -250 per model, or $300- 750 per squad
3) broadsides $150-$300 per model, or $450 - 900 total
1) riptide - $200 - 500
11) drones $10-20 per model, or $100-$200
2) hammerheads - $200 - 500 per model, or $400 - $1000 total
1) unit of 3 stealth suits - $75-$200 per model - $225 - $600 total

Which brings us to a range of about $3500 to $7000. And to be honest, if you wanted something painted by someone like Fontaine or Jen Haley or Schadle or Lovejoy Or Wappel, you can probably even up those prices. A Fontaine primarch is going to run you between $400 - $800 because he's one of the premier artists in the industry.

And based on what I've seen, Winterdyne absolutely should be commanding on the high end of that spectrum.

winterdyne wrote:

So seriously, if you're interested in hiring a professional painter, please don't be insulting about it. And if you can't afford to pay $25 per infantry figure don't ask for high level work.

 the_Armyman wrote:
Could this also be a symptom of the number of commission services now that primarily rely on airbrush work? I'm a decent enough painter and enjoy the hobby, but if I were to commission an army, I can count on one hand the number of people I would even consider for the job, and only a single one--Brandon at GMM--uses an airbrush for the majority of his work.

Let's be honest: airbrushing requires practice, but the learning curve to become good enough at it to impress most tabletop gamers is nowhere near the amount of time invested in learning how to use a brush well. Airbrushes save time, saving the customer money, and a well-airbrushed models hits enough buttons to make people believe they're getting a much higher quality job than may actually be the case.

Proper airbrushing takes longer than wet blending, because you have to tape things off and do tons of angling and airbrush control. A friend of mine wet blends like its second nature, does it faster then kids base coating with a tank brush. Airbrushing is just an easy to blend for people that cant do it, and unfortunately airbrushing is getting ragged on in every level of the hobby. Certain tournaments will actually dock you points if they notice the airbrushing, which is insane because it should matter what you do to paint the model but the final outcome. When I worked for GW I did a fully blended chaos warrior (10 hours) and a termagaunt that I used my speedy water colour technique (15 minutes) and we would constantly ask customers which is better, 9 times out of 10 people went with the gaunt for whatever reason. People get upset when you don't do things the long way, they feel like its cheating.

 Ravenous D wrote:


Proper airbrushing takes longer than wet blending, because you have to tape things off and do tons of angling and airbrush control. A friend of mine wet blends like its second nature, does it faster then kids base coating with a tank brush. Airbrushing is just an easy to blend for people that cant do it, and unfortunately airbrushing is getting ragged on in every level of the hobby. Certain tournaments will actually dock you points if they notice the airbrushing, which is insane because it should matter what you do to paint the model but the final outcome.

And additionally, being able to develop the kind of control and precision it takes to make an airbrushed paintjob look better than your average joe spraycan job, like what Giraldez or Fontaine or GMM would do, takes considerable time and effort.

$25 is pretty much bottom end of what I do. Below that is 'don't even bother asking'. That rate has little to do with the estimate in the OP.

This job was requested as 'high standard, cabinet worthy'. Make of that what you will. And yes, I charge significantly more for large vehicles as they take significantly more time than a standard infantry model as part of a batch.

As for 'starving artist' as a trope, no I'm not starving. Not getting rich either, but if I wanted to do that I'd go back into IT. Right now I prefer work and a lifestyle I actually enjoy. I don't think there are any commission artists anywhere that get particularly rich off their work. It's too time intensive.

 cincydooley wrote:

Kiwidru wrote:

However, again assuming that there wasnt a hasty dollar sign typed instead of a pound, even 134 x $25 only equals $3350. Which is about half the $6000 you quoted him, and roughly 4 times the retail cost of the lot. OP probably factors in a markup for the larger models, but i doubt it would be enough to reconcile those totals. Perhaps, even by OP's standards, the customer had a reason to question the calculations.

Are you pulling $25 as some sort of average?

Because If I wanted a quality painted hero/character, I'd expect to be paying at least $50. At least.

Anything less then $20/hour isn't worth the time, so a stand infantry model should be $50-$60 if you want high quality painting. A 10 man unit should be $500 and about 3 weeks or less.

The other problem is the all the tools that kill themselves doing $4/hour devaluing commission painting in general. When I did body painting my crew were the only ones doing it in the city, I was making $500/week + free alcohol for the stage shows I'd do at bars, for 4 hours of work, it was awesome. But then a bunch of tools started coming in and low balling the numbers to get the jobs, last I heard these losers were making $60 in a night. Desperate and bad artists ruin it for the real artists because people (for the most part) cannot tell the difference in quality of art.

winterdyne wrote:

As for 'starving artist' as a trope, no I'm not starving. Not getting rich either, but if I wanted to do that I'd go back into IT. Right now I prefer work and a lifestyle I actually enjoy. I don't think there are any commission artists anywhere that get particularly rich off their work. It's too time intensive.

It peeves me when people bring it up, too. Talented people deserve to be compensated for that talent and all the work that's gone into developing that talent.

Like I said, your work, IMO, is near the top end of that spectrum. You deserve to be compensated for it.

Maybe you should just go work at McD's in Seattle. Get that $15/hour. /sarcasm

 Col. Tartleton wrote:
No one would expect a portrait painter to give a price based on the cost of the canvas.

Wanna bet on that?

No one should - but, trust me, there are folks out there that just want to leave the actual work involved with painting out of the equation.

The Auld Grump

Did you break the price down for the customer? $6,000 does sound like a lot but when you break it down to $10/hr it isn't jack.

Sales 101, you can't just hit a customer with a price, you need to break it down and let them know what value they are getting for their money. How much time it will take, how your work is so much better than everyone else's, all the awards you have one etc.

When I give people my consulting prices I don't just hit them with the final cost, I have to break it down as to the time and effort etc.

Sticker shock is most likely the culprit here. I definitely want to get some guys commissioned, but the price is a little out of my range at the moment. I totally value their time, I just can't justify a purchase like this right now.

We wrote:
Did you break the price down for the customer? $6,000 does sound like a lot but when you break it down to $10/hr it isn't jack.

Sales 101, you can't just hit a customer with a price, you need to break it down and let them know what value they are getting for their money. How much time it will take, how your work is so much better than everyone else's, all the awards you have one etc.

When I give people my consulting prices I don't just hit them with the final cost, I have to break it down as to the time and effort etc.

No, I do a full breakdown later in the process, first is a ballpark total and turnaround time as those are the main deal killers.

I used to got through the full quote, getting all the details and talking it all through, but I found this quote often was wasted time- several hours of drafting emails and making notes is pointless if the client hasn't got the readies to pay for the job. I now do this second, so that I know the client is at least semi serious before I spend an age picking their brains to get a handle on what they actually want.

So now I go through 3 stages before I pick up a brush, first the ballpark, then the quote / discussion, then the deposit (usually I take 10-20% of the fee plus any purchase costs). The rest of the financing is pretty flexible; nothing is due till completion, but I can take payments up during the job for larger projects, or split them up for part dispatch (useful for big armies).

The quality of work is great, superb talent for sure.

All im saying is, 1. "A thing's worth is a negotiation between the sellers value and the buyers value; if you have a product that the vast majority of the population doesnt value as much as you do, there's gonna be a lot of failed connections as one side or the other backs out of negotiations." and 2. "If i see a price advertised and then get a vastly different quote when i ask about it, it's gonna raise some red flags and probably deter me away from that purchase."

PRICING GUIDE FROM WEBSITE (based on 28-35mm Miniatures)
Single Character Model on Foot - from £75
10 basic infantry - from £125
5 heavy infantry type / complex schemes - from £100
Monster - from £100
5 Cavalry / Bike - from £150
Small Vehicle - from £70
Medium Vehicle - from £95
Large Vehicle or Large Monster - from £150

INCLUDED as standard:
Cleanup
Assembly including pinning as required
Paintwork to 'premium tabletop standard'
Decal or freehand work for basic markings
Standard Basing (gravel, sand, static grass, slate)
Detailing with spare parts, accessories
Drilling of weapon barrels

ARMY IN QUESTION.
1) tau ethereal (Single Character Model on Foot - from £75)
1) battle suit commander (Monster - from £100)
2)fire warrior squads 24 models total (20 basic infantry - from £250)
2) kroot squads 24 models total (30 basic infantry - from £375)
1) unit of 10 path finders (10 basic infantry - from £125)
6) battle suits 2 squads of 3 (10 heavy infantry type / complex schemes - from £200)
3) broadsides (3 Large Vehicle or Large Monster - from £450)
1) riptide (Large Vehicle or Large Monster - from £150)
11) drones (10 basic infantry - from £125)
2) hammerheads (2 Large Vehicle or Large Monster - from £300)
1) unit of 3 stealth suits (5 heavy infantry type / complex schemes - from £100)

(That is charging a bit more for the infantry for the sake of calculating ease, assuming the stealth and battle suits are comparable to 2 heavy infantry, and calling broadsides large monsters.)

TOTAL: £2250. Quoted price: £4,000 - £4,200

Again, the math just doesn't work out. Even when up-charging certain items, there is a discrepancy of almost 100% compared to the 'menu price'. What kind of Yutz would volunteer to get ripped off by that much? Perhaps remove/update the pricing on the webpage, that might be confusing/irritating potential customers.

The pricing on my blog is bare minimum, and you're assigning the wrong prices for some items. For example the riptide is £250 to assemble and paint (extremely complex large vehicle) battle suits are £70 each and so on. It is not, and doesn't pretend to be a menu price. It is a guideline, nothing more. I'm fairly certain I explicity say so. Oh wait, yes I do. In the first fething sentence on that page. Right before 'email for a more accurate idea'.

It does however need an update, as Ive not updated it since 2013, probably in the regions of 5-10% hike on the guide prices on everything except the single character on foot.

And again, the quote was to higher than normal standard- cabinet worthy. You again seem to be under the impression that I'm worried about a loss of business. Not the case, I have more work than I can physically do most of the time. The issue I have is that occasional idiots seem to be under the impression that I pull quotes out of the air, or that I'll do work below certain rates. The client base needs to be discouraged from unrealistic expectations for the good of not only myself, but other painters, and at the end of the day, the clients themselves.

The client claims he can get that lot painted for £500. That is unrealistic in the extreme.

The difference is that those prices are "premium tabletop standard", whereas the guy asked for "a high quality paint scheme worthy of a cabinet".

It's really a matter of perspective, because the stuff I'm really proud of and spent hours and hours on is maybe similar but more likely not even close to Winterdyne's most basic level that he's willing to do.

Kiwidru wrote:


Again, the math just doesn't work out. Even when up-charging certain items, there is a discrepancy of almost 100% compared to the 'menu price'. What kind of Yutz would volunteer to get ripped off by that much? Perhaps remove/update the pricing on the webpage, that might be confusing/irritating potential customers.

Premium Tabletop Standard vs. "Cabinet Worthy"

Additionally, it pretty clearly says "from...$$," which, to me indicates a starting point.

A starting point that would not include "Cabinet Worthy."

To be fair, thinking about it from a buyer's perspective, getting a quote that far above what the webpage suggested would be jarring. I think he overreacted, and didn't really make an effort to think about why the price was so high, but an out of context number suitable to buy a decent used car is going to trigger some reactions.

 Polonius wrote:
To be fair, thinking about it from a buyer's perspective, getting a quote that far above what the webpage suggested would be jarring. I think he overreacted, and didn't really make an effort to think about why the price was so high, but an out of context number suitable to buy a decent used car is going to trigger some reactions.

I'm definitely on Winterdyne's side of this, but I also agree with that notion. It's a big reason why I don't put prices on my commission page, just that prices are case-by-case.

I also do a similar method as Winter when I get a request: I respond with a ballpark figure to see what their response is and a lot of times I either won't hear back or I get a "Thanks, but no thanks." Once it seems like we have a tentative agreement, I deliver a price breakdown and we go from there.

Honestly, I look at painting and assembling as the fun part of the hobby for me. So when I saw your price I choked a bit. But I'm definitely not your target audience. What it has shown though is that I'm gonna stick with doing it myself, because prices to have it professionally done are not something I'd feel are of value to me, when I'm capable of painting to a level I appreciate, and it's still the driving part of the hobby for me. But if people truly want to get commission work, they should do their homework of what prices are involved.

I didn't mean any offense, and no, I have no investment or interest in you get more/fewer commissions. I'm just a proletariat that would proudly display anything from the website gallery in my cabinite, if I had such a thing. And personally I didn't know their was a difference in grade between the "premium table top standard" and the "cabinite worthy". From the way yall are talking about it I assume it's analogous to Mint and Near-Mint in cards?

I don't care at all what you charge, and judging by the gallery, I'm positive it would be the highest caliber. However, If I walked into a car dealership and saw a listed price on it, When I further inquired, i would expect that to be a baseline, and not be told that technically what I ordered was some other, more expensive model, or that it was common practice for the merchant to add 10% once I got the bill, it would irk me much more than just knowing what I was getting into from the beginning.. For instance you said the riptide would be 250? That, to me, would be classified under the large monster. Especially, since there is no "extremely complex large vehicle" option publically visible. So immediately the customer is gonna be like, "Wtf bro, where did you get that price?" Thats a natural reaction to that situation. I'm just trying to help, but my insinuations indicating, "if your problem is idiot customers expecting prices that are below what you charge, address the idiot that is misinforming them about your prices." Are reluctantly getting more blatant. Alternatively, you could just be like the really fancy restaurant of painters; remove the prices and it'll be one of those, "if you need to ask the price, you can't afford it." situations.

I tease of course, and although I don't know any of those other painters, if I won the lottery Id totally pony up and commission something from you, so let's end this on a good note, just in case

The Aztec army is a work of art, and have been following it in the P&M forum. The decals, color mix, and cultural reference work really well, and have been fairly unexplored within the community, which is also impressive. Have a great day, shake us haters off, I'm out!

Kiwidru wrote:
From the way yall are talking about it I assume it's analogous to Mint and Near-Mint in cards?

Assuming PSA grading, it'd be more akin to Mint (cabinet quality) and "Very Good-Excellent" (what tabletop standard for winter's work would end up being). So there's actually a few grades in-between what would commonly be the definition of the two, especially when discussing armies versus single models where unifying theme and details become a concern. In the sports world when dealing with a rare product (e.g. - a rookie card of a hall of famer), such grade differences can be thousands of dollars difference in value. That's pretty much the same here.

Kiwidru wrote:
I don't care at all what you charge, and judging by the gallery, I'm positive it would be the highest caliber. However, If I walked into a car dealership and saw a listed price on it, When I further inquired, i would expect that to be a baseline, and not be told that technically what I ordered was some other, more expensive model, or that it was common practice for the merchant to add 10% once I got the bill, it would irk me much more than just knowing what I was getting into from the beginning.. For instance you said the riptide would be 250? That, to me, would be classified under the large monster. Especially, since there is no "extremely complex large vehicle" option publically visible. So immediately the customer is gonna be like, "Wtf bro, where did you get that price?" Thats a natural reaction to that situation. I'm just trying to help, but my insinuations indicating, "if your problem is idiot customers expecting prices that are below what you charge, address the idiot that is misinforming them about your prices." Are reluctantly getting more blatant. Alternatively, you could just be like the really fancy restaurant of painters; remove the prices and it'll be one of those, "if you need to ask the price, you can't afford it." situations.

A stronger analogy would be going to the dealership to say "I saw on TV that you have Jaguars starting at $29K" and then finding out that the Jaguar you wanted with the options you wanted would have to special-ordered and would come to a total of $86K plus shipping from the factory. Yes, the baseline "starts at" amount X, but when you want to jump 3-4 grades above the baseline the price makes a similar jump in most situations.

Not that I disagree that there's a bit of sticker shock at play, but I think that's something of the point too. It's a test of commitment to the project; if you're frightened off by money, then the time and periodic nature of progress will get to you as well and cause you create more problems than your hypothetical project is worth. Remember, the time spent creating a quote, preparing update pictures and emails are all (rightfully) expected to be included, but that administrative time is not free. Time is a zero-sum game wherein the time spent creating a detailed and explained quote is time not spent on another project or...horror of horrors...actually doing something for himself and those he cares about. If the price scares them off, not worth the time to go much futher than that initial eyeballing. Also a pretty standard practice with skilled labor in my experience.

Overall I have to agree with winterdyne. If you're paying a commissioned painter, you're getting them to do something that you are unable (for any number of reasons such as time, ability, experience, etc.) to do yourself. I know that when I do my (terribly painted) models, that it will take me roughly 3-5 hours of time per model. Measured against how I would value my free time, that's about $60-100 per model. Yes, that just gets too pricey for me because I like having my badly painted models (Yes, they're bad, but they're MINE. ). If I was to employ someone though, that's the premium I'd expect to be paying to get my free time back AND get the models that I would have been painting in said recovered free time.

Something about eating your cake and having it too springs to mind here. I can have my free time, or I can have my money; trying to have both at once is really not going to end well.

The main issue is always perception. What one person views as "high quality paint scheme worthy of a cabinet" may really just be what others think is Premium Tabletop Standard. This is often where people start complaining about "Levels" and why one commissioned Level 3 could be completely different than another persons Level 3. There isn't a standard to judge these by, there isn't even really a tabletop standard per say... because what looks good to one person, may not to others.

Premium "of exceptional quality or greater value than others of its kind; superior:" could imply that it is better than tabletop standard. There are a lot of really good tabletop standards out there that photograph well and look higher quality, until you take a closer look at the miniatures. I believe the term used is that it passes the 3ft test, looking good on the table from the distance. Most people wouldn't put their Tabletop in a cabinet but we also don't know how the person asking stores their miniatures. We have all made the assumptions that cabinet means a display cabinet but since we don't know what that person deems high quality, it may be filled with what others just call tabletop.

It makes it harder when people look at a someone's gallery and there is not reference as to what the painter deems that quality as. When you look at a gallery and see a price list, people can make an assumption that is what you would get. Some people will put prices at a different levels and show pictures of the levels, which does help. Some will go into more detail outlining that the quality is X amount of base colors, tint/feathering, highlight color and wash. But even with a more detailed description the quality will vary.

There is also a misconception on how much time it takes to paint something. People can watch a 30 minute video of a paint job with a Marine and assumes it only takes 30 minutes. They are forgetting the assembly, primering and drying time which usually isn't in the video. Some videos fast forward and others show the painting real time, but may cut some of the frames out for the video length portraying a fast time. There are others who air brush and so people think if you air brush, you can paint twice as fast.. that isn't necessarily the case.

In terms of the subjective nature of quality of "levels", I understand that it's a valid argument in reality because all of this stems from a lack of consumer information. In an ideal world though, if you were going to hire someone to do most any kind of work you've vetted them by examining their work and thus have a reasonable working knowledge of what their performance is like (adjusting that things THEY present are of course in the best light possible). Thus when you contact them to engage their services you know if they're 1) capable of the work you require and 2) have a decent-ish idea of how your project compares against the levels they exhibit.

Now, in the world we actually live in, few people put in that amount of effort I suspect because many don't know how to value the work as illustrated by the OP. If you told someone they would be spending thousands of dollars/pounds, they'd likely launch into due diligence quite readily (though as tenebre showed, sometimes that doesn't pan out). Since they think the cost of the models should be the most expensive part, they don't look into it much more than a cursory glance. Reality becomes a bucket of cold water to the face at that point.

Still, if I ever win the lottery I'll have winterdyne paint all my stuff; I should only need to toss in a second mortgage to afford it (that's not a knock on price; I just have a lot of stuff...GW alone is in excess of 3K models).

This sort of thing happens in any sort of skilled trade. I have paid for 2 collisions of single foot sloggers/basic infantry. One was the collisions middle level and the other was of its highest quality. Together they cost me something like £60. Don't get me wrong I was happy with the work but I did it to see what my models would look like. Photos do look different to the model in your hand.

If I was to have bought a squads worth then I personally would have gone for the middle of the range option. Yes the top level with its 4 highlights and crazy good blending looked amaze halls. The mid range also looked much better than what I could produce at the time. I never did go through with it. I had to weigh up having a nice painted squad or purchase a bunch of stuff and badly paint it myself.

The top level gd winning comission isn't the only option. It baffles me when people ask for the best and then get shocked by the premium price. I personally would have messaged back saying something akin to "well that price is for top level work. If U want something cheaper I could paint them at "x" level which would look like [insert image]

I'm a mobile mechanic by trade for the last 4 years. I'm vat registered and all my work has a warranty. I have 2 vans, both sign written and 1 paid staff member for bigger jobs with uniforms for both of us. I have a standard hourly labour rate and I now have enough experience to give a figure on the spot of how long it will take regardless of if the job runs over. I used to have a heavy presence on Facebook as there's a lot of potential clients on there. I now stay mostly quiet because people would be asking for a 4 hour job and were insulted by my pricing. They would rather some random hobbyist come and do the job for pittence who will turn up with an assortment of basic tools, will only be paid in cas without providing receipt or invoice. I eventually just stopped and post an advert for myself every now and then.

I have ended up going to customers and fixing/finishing the jobs from cowboys. I can't understand it. If you want quality work, you're going to have to pay quality prices. You want it done cheap by a non professional then don't come crying to me asking for help when not 1 week earlier i was called out as a rip off merchant.

The internet has turned a lot of skilled professions into a place for hobbyists to thrive. A lot of people these days only see the price in front of them. feth everything else

In terms of levels, it's almost impossible to break it down by technique. A 5 or 6 layer feathering job may not look as smooth as a fast wet blend. It may be better for the effect desired. So I basically just offer 'what I put on the table', 'show off a bit / push it' and 'balls out competitive'. Most of what I do is what I put on the table. I don't work below that as I find it difficult to not do something that I like the look of. Other than time (and lots of it) often there's actually little visible difference. Blends a bit smoother, edges a bit neater, but all in all unless you're really looking, or aiming to take photos (I do a bit of studio work now and then) there's not much in it. I advise against the higher end of stuff if my opinion is asked.

That is to say, the quote I gave was middle range; I have scored a few GD finalists in squad at that sort of level, but its not really competitive.

A full on golden demon attempt would be significantly more- Taking the riptide as example, that probably work out close to £1,200 on its own. It'd be bloody nice though. You have to be a bit mad to commission competitive level stuff. There are folks that do it though.

Johnson & The Juice Crew wrote:


The top level gd winning comission isn't the only option. It baffles me when people ask for the best and then get shocked by the premium price. I personally would have messaged back saying something akin to "well that price is for top level work. If U want something cheaper I could paint them at "x" level which would look like [insert image]

I think some people don't seem to understand the meaning of the phrase "You get what you pay for" and it seems to be most prevalent in the art world. You'll get people who ask for really big things and they are shocked when they get a quote i think they judge it on how long it would take them or how long they think it takes over any realistic expectations. When you are asking for top class work you are asking a lot and a person will quote accordingly. It's like if i get a tattoo maybe three shops will quote much less than the guy that came recommended and has a reputation for high quality work but will they do it as well? I might pay more but the work will be bloody good.

If i was going to get model commissions done I'd want it to be good to be worth it so I'm unlikely to take a chance on unproven cheap options much like i won't get a tattoo someplace who quoted it cheapest. Customers naturally look for a bargain and the best deal but there are things in life you shouldn't settle for less on and i think art is one of them. If you want an art commission look for a pro it might cost more than you expect but they will take care of you and you are most likely going to be happy with the results. But yeah I'm sure there are better ways to handle it than asking for the best possible quality and then scoffing at the price quoted.

I guess it really comes down to: are you getting work?
If so, the prices are right if it is keeping you busy (too busy you may want to look at raising them).

I have seen / met too many people who would complain if the service is free and want you to pay them for the honor of painting their models.
I would think your pricing could be used to "thwart the barbarians at the moat" to keep the people looking for an outrageous deal at bay.
The less haggle-room you give can allow you to spend more time with the clients you want.

This will help reduce the rage inducing exposure of these fun individuals.
Comments of this nature translate into "I cannot afford your service and am angry for you making me feel this way... YOU MUST PAY!".

Keep calm carry on.

If you want high end, high end costs high end money.

If I wanted a high quality character model done for me, I'm under no illusion that your easy looking at 100% of the kit price on top at a min cost for basic levels, yet alone top level.

The kit price is irrelevant; especially if you work on a range of manufacturers. The only thing that matters is time.

These units are a good example of my bottom end tabletop level:



The kit price on that is under £10 per unit, including the bases and movement tray. And the metal models in the men at arms.
Probably about 15 hours per unit average from sprue to photo table - those are what I charge at about £125 - £140 each.

It's interesting that you commented with the kit price - I do sometimes see new painters saying they charge kit price on top and it really is a recipe for disaster in my opinion.

In the grand scheme of things i imagine the kit price is pretty pointless to charge for especially when they are such minor cost against the labour cost or people would start charging per cost of paint and glue used plus materials and you'd have a cost breakdown a mile long XD. That kind of looks funny in my head,

Even that basic tabletop standard work puts any of my best efforts to shame. Just started back with the Hobby after many years so I'm way out of practice but even when i used to paint an army i couldn't even manage something which looks as good as that.

I can't imagine what kit price would have to do with painting price. I mean, look at DE Grotesques in comparison with Warriors. The Warriors are going to be vastly cheaper per unit, but $100 of Warriors is going to be WAY mor work intensive to paint than $100 of Grotesques.

Just from the list, the price did seem really high. (It's also the first full quote I've ever seen from a commission painter.) I could definitely understand some jaw-dropping shock at the number. (I reread the post a few times because I was sure I was missing some units or misreading the number.) But the client's response is unbelievably rude. I've encountered similar people on pretty much every auction/trade site; they actually seem to make up the majority of people. I can even understand contacting a seller/trader and politely asking for an explanation as to their reasoning on their asking price (and unsurprisingly enough, usually get an unbelievably rude response when I do so), but there is no call to be uncivil.

If you don't like the price, walk away. If the is a huge gap between your expected prices, ask one another how you're arriving at your mental prices. There is ZERO reason to act like a knob.

Oh that wasn't a full quote, just the ballpark estimate. And it's a huge job - I'd guess easily 4 months full time on it.

A full quote comes later in the process, after discussion of the project, what's involved, and covers everything from the base fees, any special conversion budget (minor conversions are included in my basic fee), model costs (if I'm buying them) and what's due when. For example, if the client here wanted NMM chrome effect on everything that'd put the price up hugely. If he wanted digital camo, that'd have put it up a bit. The specifics of a job can change the fee a bit.

The usual thing I get asked for that costs extra is brass etch foliage on bases, and that's just a materials cost (I don't charge for using it).

Not surprisingly - your bottom end starts where my top end ends. Lol.

 KiloFiX wrote:
Not surprisingly - your bottom end starts where my top end ends. Lol.

Yeah, no kidding. I've seen worse looking models win best painted awards.

winterdyne wrote:


It's interesting that you commented with the kit price - I do sometimes see new painters saying they charge kit price on top and it really is a recipe for disaster in my opinion.

I think that is because it is often what customers offer, and if you don't know any better, you accept it and then eventually wise up.

I know when I started, I charged the set of the kit to paint. At the time, my time was 'worthless' and it kept me growing my collection and stocking my paints for minimal cost. But I was probably working for like 2$ an hour. It is fine when you are 19 and just having fun as a hobby.

Having seen Winterdyne's He is getting a bargin! But I say that after seeing the breakdown and all, if he hadnt broke it down I would have been flabbergasted! Did the customer know how long you would roughly take? if so his rudeness seems less understandable.
Seriously though as a bad paniter who cranks out a shoddy model very quickly I used to have the assumption that a skilled painter took the same time for better results, i.e I would spend X hours on a model and expect winterdynes amazing work to also take the same time where in reality it would take like twice that.
Its all ignorance, people who havent seen the breakdown and/or explanation of a skilled commision painter expect the work to take half the time it does and half the skill so like a quater of the price

winterdyne wrote:
The kit price is irrelevant; especially if you work on a range of manufacturers. The only thing that matters is time.

These units are a good example of my bottom end tabletop level:



The kit price on that is under £10 per unit, including the bases and movement tray. And the metal models in the men at arms.
Probably about 15 hours per unit average from sprue to photo table - those are what I charge at about £125 - £140 each.

It's interesting that you commented with the kit price - I do sometimes see new painters saying they charge kit price on top and it really is a recipe for disaster in my opinion.

TO ME, or maybe a buyer who has never used commision painters. This is really top notch work. I wouldnt expect this to be "tapletop" but after being on here for a year or so the phrase "tabletop quality" has lost all meaning

Yeah, I get that a lot, but I don't like numeric grading. At the end of the day I paint stuff to game with (the above), stuff to display or push things a bit, and stuff pulling out all the stops.

It really is a very subjective thing, which is why I have many, many photos online. :-)

text removed.

Reds8n

You might have missed the bit where I said I've been doing this full time for around 6 years now?

It suits me pretty well and although the money is relatively poor it allows me to pursue other businesses and work my own schedule. Certainly considering the near-breakdown that I ran into doing IT consultancy and the cesspool that the games coding industry is, I'm happier where I am.

Mate, I'm a plumbing and heating engineer and I get the same thing all the time.

Some people just have unrealistic expectations, don't let it bother you. My price is reasonable and yours seems that way too, so if someone is willing to do it cheaper then let them.

They'll either go out of business or else they're just stating up and are not confident in their own abilities. If the customer wants a cheaper price then they can take the risk of a potential cowboy and that's up to them. My price comes with the guarantee of experience, a proven track record, professionalism and aftercare, as I'm sure yours does, and there are plenty of people out there willing to pay for that.

He'll be back, or he won't *shrugs*. In the meantime I'm not willing to exchange my labour for slave wages and I don't have to.

kb305 wrote:

maybe stop playing with toys and try getting a real job. im just sayin. commission painting is best left as something to do for fun on the side and try not to get too caught up in it. and if people dont want to pay your price, feth them, it's for the best because thank god you dont have to glue and paint their junk for little money. leave that to the sweatshop studios.

Ok, take a chill pill dude. That's condescending to the max.

winterdyne, you deserve to rant and vent some steam, that situation looked incredibly frustrating and considering how you said no names, no nothing, it was not something of poor taste to do.

Your work is nothing short of amazing and like you already showed, your "bottom" is what the "top" is for others. I can't really add much to what has been said already but agreeing about how right you are, that level of perfection DESERVES to be properly paid.

Oh, and I find it lovely you too "escaped" from the IT consultancy life. I can relate

Ok I think this thread has somewhat reached the limit. I believe we all somewhat agree with winterdyne, and at the end of the day he deserved not only to rant but to inform maybe those of us in the community that do not realize the time and patience that go into commission.

As a rule of thumb folks, and this cannot be stressed enough, expect to pay for your goddamn commission. If you need to refer back to my earlier post about how teachers get paid do so, but at the end of the day these guys are quite literally assembling (to perfection, meaning sanding/taking off the nubs/flash) and painting these models. If anything think about how much you would want to get paid per hour on the same project. even if its $10 an hour, a commission that takes month is going to go into the thousands of dollars. Now that being said - start saving money!!!! Just put away $200 a month and WABAMM you got yourself your commission.

fidel wrote:
Now that being said - start saving money!!!! Just put away $200 a month and WABAMM you got yourself your commission.

Or, instead of whining about how much professional work costs, get a better job and be able to afford it!

 Polonius wrote:

fidel wrote:
Now that being said - start saving money!!!! Just put away $200 a month and WABAMM you got yourself your commission.

Or, instead of whining about how much professional work costs, get a better job and be able to afford it!

Or lease your mineral rights like I did on my property get payed 3k a acre and hope they hit Utica gas.. I enjoy the 17% royal laity check coming in every month. Nothing like a gas/oil boom in your small village

Johnson & The Juice Crew wrote:

winterdyne wrote:
The kit price is irrelevant; especially if you work on a range of manufacturers. The only thing that matters is time.

These units are a good example of my bottom end tabletop level:



The kit price on that is under £10 per unit, including the bases and movement tray. And the metal models in the men at arms.
Probably about 15 hours per unit average from sprue to photo table - those are what I charge at about £125 - £140 each.

It's interesting that you commented with the kit price - I do sometimes see new painters saying they charge kit price on top and it really is a recipe for disaster in my opinion.

TO ME, or maybe a buyer who has never used commision painters. This is really top notch work. I wouldnt expect this to be "tapletop" but after being on here for a year or so the phrase "tabletop quality" has lost all meaning

True, I was more thinking gw who charge upwards of 20 for one HQ in foot in roughly standard size.

Ie so absolutely no less than that, for very basic, and more for anything but a base coat and a clean up. No I've never used them as yet,

For example, I'd say anything under 100 for a primarch or HH character, is stupid cheap and your asking for trouble, 200 + probbly for a real nice neat and tidy job ie low high lights, and gradients but neat and clean. and even higher for showcase, show off levels

Johnson & The Juice Crew wrote:


I'm a mobile mechanic by trade for the last 4 years. I'm vat registered and all my work has a warranty. I have 2 vans, both sign written and 1 paid staff member for bigger jobs with uniforms for both of us. I have a standard hourly labour rate and I now have enough experience to give a figure on the spot of how long it will take regardless of if the job runs over. I used to have a heavy presence on Facebook as there's a lot of potential clients on there. I now stay mostly quiet because people would be asking for a 4 hour job and were insulted by my pricing. They would rather some random hobbyist come and do the job for pittence who will turn up with an assortment of basic tools, will only be paid in cas without providing receipt or invoice. I eventually just stopped and post an advert for myself every now and then.

I have ended up going to customers and fixing/finishing the jobs from cowboys. I can't understand it. If you want quality work, you're going to have to pay quality prices. You want it done cheap by a non professional then don't come crying to me asking for help when not 1 week earlier i was called out as a rip off merchant.

I have a friend who makes his living off of doing custom cabinetry and furniture, and the expectations that people have are just bizzarre. "I want a beautiful table, and since I can get A table at Ikea for $100, this should cost me $50, because you're not a big company."

And then exploding in wrath because reality doesn't remotely fit what's in their head.

I swear, other peoples' children...

kb305 wrote:
text removed.

Reds8n

Like I said...

Winterdyne, just out of curiosity how much would that list of models have cost if done to your lowest level and do U have any pics of Tau at that level?

I'm curious because your bottom end tabletop looks like the sort of thing I would pay for and put on display

Johnson & The Juice Crew wrote:
Winterdyne, just out of curiosity how much would that list of models have cost if done to your lowest level and do U have any pics of Tau at that level?

I'm curious because your bottom end tabletop looks like the sort of thing I would pay for and put on display

I wanted to ask that too - I was browsing and said... damn.... thats his low stuff...... I wonder what his shigh stuff looks like

But to quote the words of a famous philosopher Winterdyne, and I HOPE you head this message:

"Because the players are going to play, play, play
And the haters are going to hate, hate, hate
Baby, I believe I am going shake, shake, shake
Shake it off, Shake it off"

If you love what you do keep doing it.

Right now I make about as much as a P/T job would pay, but I don't have to put up with management and coworkers.

It would be very easy to get a F/T job, but I know that unless it involved sculpting I would hate it.

As for prices, everyone wants something for next to nothing. That won't ever change.

There might be longer periods between commissions, but if people like your work word gets around and they'll come to you to have it done.

At my 'basic' level I reckon about £3,500. No pics as I've never painted a Tau.

my other post was mostly in jest, you said it was a rant thread so i gave a mini rant of my own.
it is impressive that you've made it six years. Trying to do it as a full time job really is brutal, people are cheap. Ive seen beautifully painted minis sell for 30 bucks on ebay.
Ive seen stuff from polish masters sell for only 100 bucks, a mini that probably took them 20 hours or more. I think you do have to take on the starving artist mentality.

Atleast you're in the UK where people pay more for it. I suspect it is even worse in North America.
Your price is accurate for how long it takes but that does not mean very many people will actually pay that much.
Including the minis, all in, that guy is looking at what? my guess is $6 - 7k US. That's enough to rent a room somewhere for a full year or buy a nice used car. yes, people do take it seriously but at the end of the day it is still just toys.

the average GW gamer seems to only care about how much over the top "detail" something has. for people like you that have standards and actually paint those details, it means that your painting time will keep going up. and gw appears to be losing more and more customers, the company is not growing. so im guessing less and less people will be interested in commission as time goes on. maybe it is time to take a step back and reevaluate it if this is actually frustrating you.

It's a global market; I'd say 90% of my private commissions go abroad. Plenty of customers, plenty of work.

Luckily, I do commercial work for companies other than GW, so their demise should it come, won't hit me as bad as all that, in fact it may even be beneficial. Given that 99% of my private work was GW, and 99% of that a space marine of some sort, if I wasn't actively putting myself out in other sectors, it'd be brutal, and I'd have to spend some time and money putting forward my work in another field; railroad modelling (especially engineering) for example is lucrative, if you have the contacts and reputation.

The summat for little mentality is something I come up against in my job almost daily. I can sympathise thoroughly.

Not painting, but as part of my work I make custom embroidered stuffed animals - prototypes and original works. These can take 20 to 45 hours. Sometimes longer. I get parents emailing me about the photographs on my site, asking me to make a toy for their child. I charge a flat £7/hr plus fabric...
"How much?? I could go to [store] and buy a teddy for £10!!!"
Feth off and do that, then. £10 wouldn't cover postage.

There's a lack of understanding, and I can tolerate that. But week in, week out, it wears me down.
Nowadays I tend to answer the commissions from people who don't ask price in the initial inquiry, but ask timescale. I stack the rest up and reply at the end of the week, knowing full well I'll get a slew of "omg!!!" replies. I always make sure to do so when I'm relaxed, as being an ass to someone's mother doesn't exactly help anything.

Winterdyne, I thought GW had in-house painters?

In reading the post, I believe he means that he paints GW & non-GW models and not that he paints FOR GW, specifically.

Eric

More precisely, that the majority of the work I do is on gw models, but that I do work specifically for other manufacturers and as they grow I'm likely to get more work from them. So what I lose in one hand I'll hopefully gain in the other.

All I can say really is, you get what you pay for. You pay peanuts, you're going to get monkeys.
Your work is amazing and I'm very jealous of it. There will be plenty other people who admire your work and are willing to pay for it, so don't let one or 2 idiots get you down!

.mispost

winterdyne wrote:
It's a global market; I'd say 90% of my private commissions go abroad. Plenty of customers, plenty of work.

Luckily, I do commercial work for companies other than GW

I apologize, this part of your post made me think GW had been using freelance painters. They do have a job opening for freelance artists, so I didn't think GW using freelance painters sounded unusual.



Maybe people think commission work is too expensive because of the impression that it isn't a real job and painting/sculpting is something that's done in the freetime you have when you aren't at your real job.

I can't say for painters, but most of the sculptors I know don't have other jobs. Sculpting is their job and they need to make a living wage.

The closest gw have come to using freelance painters is a one-month rolling contract for warhammer world displays. They seem to like to keep things in house and their standard employment contract includes an nda iirc. Most other places just use an nda. Actually I don't even have an nda with mantic, just an informal agreement.

winterdyne wrote:
In this case, we're looking between 500 and 650 working hours, depending on schemes, running in at north of £4,000 - £4,200 ($6000+).

500-650 hours is 1/3 to 1/4 of a year. Your annual equivalent pay is $20-25k USD annually?

You're obviously not doing this for the money.

Or rather, you're not trying to get rich off someone else's dime.

Minis painting doesn't pay well for the skill and time required.

 mechanicalhorizon wrote:

winterdyne wrote:
It's a global market; I'd say 90% of my private commissions go abroad. Plenty of customers, plenty of work.

Luckily, I do commercial work for companies other than GW

I apologize, this part of your post made me think GW had been using freelance painters. They do have a job opening for freelance artists, so I didn't think GW using freelance painters sounded unusual.



Maybe people think commission work is too expensive because of the impression that it isn't a real job and painting/sculpting is something that's done in the freetime you have when you aren't at your real job.

I can't say for painters, but most of the sculptors I know don't have other jobs. Sculpting is their job and they need to make a living wage.

For any artist in whatever field it's pretty much going to be their job it's a skilled trade. The only ones i know of doing private commissions only are students who are doing some work on the side to fund their studies. Anyone with that sort of opinion probably doesn't know many artists it's like thinking a plumber does another job and does plumbing for fun. Most of an artists jobs will be professional contracts for companies but since delivery of said work takes time there are gaps in cash flow. Private commissions can be a great way to plug some financial holes since you can take on a bunch of smaller jobs and finish them between delivering a big contract job. Except that it's pretty much going to be a handshake agreement which leads to all kinds of mess with private clients. Also on the other end when you get these cowboys messing things up vanishing then using the lack of any legally binding agreement to get out of it.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

winterdyne wrote:
In this case, we're looking between 500 and 650 working hours, depending on schemes, running in at north of £4,000 - £4,200 ($6000+).

500-650 hours is 1/3 to 1/4 of a year. Your annual equivalent pay is $20-25k USD annually?

You're obviously not doing this for the money.

Or rather, you're not trying to get rich off someone else's dime.

Minis painting doesn't pay well for the skill and time required.

Not, but from the very limited sampling of people I know who pretty much do this as their full time thing, while their never going to have their own private island, they're getting paid for something they enjoy doing, and it's a nice supplementary income to what their spouse is bringing in. Also, getting to work from home, and not have to wear shoes if you don't want to.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

winterdyne wrote:
In this case, we're looking between 500 and 650 working hours, depending on schemes, running in at north of £4,000 - £4,200 ($6000+).

500-650 hours is 1/3 to 1/4 of a year. Your annual equivalent pay is $20-25k USD annually?

You're obviously not doing this for the money.

Or rather, you're not trying to get rich off someone else's dime.

Minis painting doesn't pay well for the skill and time required.

If I press myself, I get more than that, if I coast, yeah about that before expenses. The trick with self employment is to know your entitlements and how to file your taxes properly (so you pay as little as possible if any to the tax man). After that it's a case of getting paid for work done; work hard and you get more money. Ease off the work and you get more family time. Good scheduling of deadline jobs is important there. I get crunches in March/April and September with salute and golden demon stuff. That said, I did nothing for golden demon last year and didn't really miss it.

But no, I don't do this for the money, I do it because it's a lot more personally rewarding than IT work.

winterdyne, I was self employed for awhile not painting but tying fishing flies. I tied for several fly shops in my home state of PA as well for a couple in outfitters in Florida and Alaska. Was living the dream after college traveling around the States fly fishing, teaching tying classes at a University, taking clients fishing. Money was alright had to bust my butt during the year, then I realized I need Heath care and a pension to fall back on. Got a horrible job at a state prison as a guard but it had some benefits. Would teach the inmates how to fly tie and if they had a off grounds pass I would take them steelhead/trout fishing. About 4 years ago I was hurt bad at work an inmate attacked me with a weapon. Suffered a bad brain injury but doing much better now. Decided this year Iam going back to following my dream, have a fly tying seminar scheduled this June. I applaud you for following yours.

Sucks dude, i hope you do well with it. Gotta say I love the NHS.

yeah, i don't see myself getting rich off of private commissions and freelance studio work...
that is why i live in the Third World...
i live two blocks from the beach, surf in the morning, hangout with a girl in the afternoon, and paint all night...
it's a good life...
there is no way i could afford to live in Redondo Beach (where i am from) on what people and companies pay for commissions, and my rates are on par with Winterdyne's...

like him, i am also booked about six months in advance, so the clients are out there, but pretty much everyone wants a lower price than the initial quote...
it is sad that people don't see the hard work that goes into developing the skills to do high-end mini painting...
thousands of hours of thought, research, and pushing beyond the comfort zone are where the results come from, not some magic bean...
when people want to hire a Golden Demon winner for competition quality work, and expect to pay rates at the lower end of the spectrum, it does get exasperating, but it is a normal part of the business...

cheers
jah

Commission painting is frustrating. Often for both sides.

I've only experienced it from the other side, but the underlying problem just seems to be people only taking themselves into account in a given situation. Which just isn't something that is ever going to work in a professional context. The client isn't buying some mass produced item off the shelf from a Walmart, and the painter isn't working retail where they can be a flake and have a 'whatever man' attitude.

I saw a painter who did good work and said they did commissions. I asked them how soon they could start, how long they think it would take, how much they would charge to paint a model like the models they had taken pictures of. I tell them what the general range of my budget is so they understand what kind of money is on the table.

They quote 25-30 euro a model. I say fine. They indicate that there will be a price break if I want numerous models painted. Fine by me, steady work can be worth more and them offering a bit of a break means they want the money.

They ask what color scheme, I say I want them to paint them exactly like they painted the models in the pictures.

My only real nit-picky demand was that I get a test figure painted first, and project is approved based on that, then project will be done in batches with payment being broken down per batch. The extra shipping is obviously on my head. This way the size of the bag either side might be left holding is much smaller. They say they have no problem with it.

I get the test figure. Color scheme is not the same. They post a picture of the mini on a forum, and people post that the color isn't the same as their other models. They say the client requested it. Which I did not. I explicitly requested that it be the same. Paint job was good though, so I kept my mouth shut. The only thing I complained about was that the model wasn't glued into the base in a perpendicular manner (i.e. they glued it in and then didn't prop it up so it is looking at the ground), and the complaint was just asking them to make sure they took care to make sure the models were glued in perpendicular to the ground on future models so people could more easily see their good paint jobs. I also indicated the sword on the model was bent in transit, but I bent it back without issue. Not a complaint, just a data point for them related to how their packaging worked out.

I submit the batch details to the painter, trying to group like minis with like to make their job easier, asking if they agreed or wanted to change.

They then send me an email saying that they usually make 30 to 35 euro a model, so will paint them at 30 per model as a price break. Which is NOT what they said at the start. While I did not ask for a price break... they are now playing reindeer games in relation to what they've said previously. Oh, and it turns out that faces also cost 3 euro extra. If they had asked for 40+ euro a model at the start, they would have gotten 40+ euro a model. Commission canceled: I don't trust you. I am not about to find out what sort of horror story of reindeer games I'm in for once this commission gets partially finished.

That's why I and most other places will maintain an email chain for the job, so both sides have records, and honour whatever firm quote is given for the job. If the job is broken into multiple quoted then I can do what I like with pricing between those quotes. Sounds like you did all the right things as a client. For my part I'm sometimes asked to match older work, it's easier if I have the older model in hand otherwise, consistency can only really be guaranteed within a batch- variances of mixes, lighting, application, heck, even mood can impact the result slightly but occasionally perceptibly.

Always best to pull out of the deal in those cases sounds like one of the cowboy types who start work then start adding on prices and messing you around then they deliver a bodge job. For the business side as a client i want to get all that out the way before any work even starts so i understand exactly what it will cost me and any deposit i need to pay up front and that shouldn't change unless the client starts requesting more. Though in that case it feels like trouble when work begins and the client starts wanting major changes to their original idea like they requested a character model painted and then they start asking for an uber custom base job with all these extra bells and whistles like at first it was the regular base with some gravel on it and then they come back with "Actually i want him standing on the ledge of a mountain surrounded by severed heads and skulls with eagles flying around him!".

Think personally I'd avoid asking for somebody to match their own work mostly because that photos tend to look different to models so it's not actually going to look the same when i see it in person and because for me i feel like I'd rather have something created from my own vision i can understand why people would want something that looks like some of your own work those example photos are awesome but i see it more as examples of techniques you can do.

everyone wants that top notch paint job or any art really then you hit them with a realistic number for your work and people get bent on the price i am an artist myself not just mini painting and every time i quote someone for any of my work i get the same thing people think because its a "fun" job or the fact it comes easier too you or your a buddy that you don't deserve a reasonable amount for your work .. quality dose come with a price ..anyone who has painted a full army knows what kinda of work is involved in it now you want a higher quality paint job triple that time frame and that's where the money is i guess my point is if you want quality art pay for it because the alternative too that is probably not going to be what you wanted

So.. this all sums up to this?

 flabluker wrote:
everyone wants that top notch paint job or any art really then you hit them with a realistic number for your work and people get bent on the price i am an artist myself not just mini painting and every time i quote someone for any of my work i get the same thing people think because its a "fun" job or the fact it comes easier too you or your a buddy that you don't deserve a reasonable amount for your work .. quality dose come with a price ..anyone who has painted a full army knows what kinda of work is involved in it now you want a higher quality paint job triple that time frame and that's where the money is i guess my point is if you want quality art pay for it because the alternative too that is probably not going to be what you wanted

Well most artists do get paid less largely because they are doing it because of a personal interest and they find it fun.

winterdyne is a world class painter and doing freelance commissions gets paid less than your average unskilled to semi-skilled factory worker.

I tend to think it's not the fact that people want a lot for nothing, I think it's more that they don't realise they are asking for a lot and thus aren't expecting the high price. They either don't realise the effort that goes in to putting together a whole army (or even a single unit) and even on the off chance they do realise how long it would take themselves to do it, they probably think a pro could do it significantly faster when really it's only moderately faster (barring the few freaks who churn out entire good looking units in a few hours ).

I think as long as you present yourself as "well it's going to take me about this long and thus it will cost about that much". Anyone who doesn't understand that is just a moron or someone who hasn't worked a day in their life. If someone asks me how much something will cost, I'll only lead with the dollar amount if I'm trying to scare them away from hiring me

 Thairne wrote:
So.. this all sums up to this?

Have an exalt sir