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Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/10 02:03:33


Post by: streamdragon


Just hoping to see what other Dakkanauts are running in their scum lists. Scum got me into the game, so I've been pouring over ideas. I've come up with a few (mostly terrible but fun sounding) lists, but I'm sort of stuck on what I see as my more realistic build:

Dace Bonearm [Wingman, Ion Cannon Turret, Greedo] (31)
N’Dru Suhlak [Cluster Missiles, Lone Wolf] (23)
Drea Renthal [Ion Cannon Turret, Unhinged Astromech, BTL-A4 Y-Wing] (28)

82 points, so I have 18 left. Binayre with Assault Missiles? Swap Wingman for something more useful? (Drea can deal with her own Stress?) Binayre with Deadman's and Ion Missiles for Dace?

N'Dru Suhlak does his thing, off on his own. He's a pretty standard fixture I guess.

Drea gets to double tap targets at range 1-2, even if the second shot is Ion. I went with Unhinged over the R4-B11 droid to keep Stress manageable. I threw Wingman onto Dace for this reason also, as I figure the two will be flying close to each other. Greedo is probably much better on a Firespray or something that has more shields than an HWK, but for this build I didn't have the points.

Any thoughts?

I also leave you with a just-for-fun fleet I call "Deadman's Wonderland".

DEADMAN'S WONDERLAND
Z-95 Surprise Swarm! 99 points
PILOTS
N’Dru Suhlak [Cluster Missiles, Lone Wolf] (23)
Kaa’to Leeachos [Concussion Missiles, Veteran Instincts] (20)
Binayre Pirate [Dead Man's Switch] (14) x 4

It's not remotely competitive, but 4 Z-95s packed with Dead Man's Switches? What's not to love?


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/10 02:38:12


Post by: derek


I've been practicing with variations of this list lately:

IG88-C [Predator, Advanced Sensors, “Hot Shot” Blaster, Autothrusters] (47)

Binayre Pirate [Feedback Array] (14) x 2

Syndicate Thug [Ion Cannon Turret, Unhinged Astromech] (24)

It has wins against Decimator+Soontir, and 2Y4Z Scum, and it got Han/Corran down to 2HP left on Han at time with the Y-Wing still at near full (had only lost 1 shield I believe). It's part of my attempt to play lists with just a single Aggressor. I really wish I could get Kavil in as the Y-Wing, but the Feedback Array is so good I'm not sure I would want to drop it. Toyed with the idea of running 2 Y-Wings as well, but I don't think they pack enough offensive punch.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/10 04:14:21


Post by: Crazy_Carnifex


I've been having some success with:

Boba Fett
Vet Instincts
Engine Upgrade
Gunner
Inertial dampeners

N'dru Suhlak
Lone Wolf
Inertial Dampeners
Cluster Missiles

Syndicate Thug
BTL-A4
Ion Cannon
Unhinged Astromech

By which I mean that I had one win, and one very narrow loss (We ran out of time the turn after Boba died, with me having N'dru, and my opponent having 2 damaged pirate Z-95's). One more turn and I could have killed one of the Z-95's and won. (Grumble).

I find that Scum Boba is an absolute beast at range one, and he has a nice high PS with Vet instincts to hunt down stuff like phantoms. N'dru is a little tricky, but he can be insane if you use him right.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/10 05:25:59


Post by: Peregrine


Honestly, I'm not really sure what to do with scum. Every time I've seen the starviper and scyk they've been disappointing, and it doesn't look like they're going to be viable competitive options. And lists built around the "shared" rebel ships seem to either end up being clones of existing rebel lists or wishing they had the other rebel options. Meanwhile the firespray pilots are good, but scum firespray-focused lists don't really seem all that different from the imperial versions of those lists. Change TIE fighters into z-95s and it's still essentially the same thing. So that leaves dual IG-88 as the only distinctly scum list I've seen that's even potentially viable, and that list still has major weaknesses with awkward maneuvering and extreme vulnerability to stress.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/10 08:29:10


Post by: bocatt


Well I like thematically plausible lists. I've come up with quite a few but haven't run all that many due to only having 1 night a week to play X wing for 3-4 hours.

Last week I ran Kath Scarlet with Expose and her Binyare Pirates (tested the Y-wing title with blaster turret too which was a mess) and I was not impressed. My flying is not that good, but I never once got the 6 dice off and without experimental interface for a target lock or focus, it sucks.

I did fly Serissu with a HLC in another list and let me be the first to say that it is awesome.

I plan on building a list more centered around her (she's probably my favorite scum pilot for her ability and her role in-universe as I was a long time SWG player before it shut down)

Now it would make more sense to bring Palob Godalhi and N'dru Suhlak as they're the least villainous of the Scum and Villainy but the Star viper and Z95s make much better use of her ability than a HWK and a Lone Wolf-er.

So, I've decided that this week (tonight) I'm going to bring the Underlord of the Black Sun (even though I prefer Guri in-universe and for her pilot ability, that PS is just... atrocious) Prince Xizor and some of his goons in Zs. The list will look like this:

Xizor (Star Viper) 38 points
Veteran Instincts
Autothrusters
Virago
(proxied) Advanced Sensors

Serissu (Scyk) 36 points
Push the Limit
Engine Upgrade
"Heavy Scyk"
Heavy Laser Cannon

Black Sun Soldier (Z95) 13 points x2

normally Serissu flys *against* the Black Sun, not for them, but here I can write it off as mercenary work either because this operation (that the Prince is so invested in that he brings on outside help) takes place pre-Tansarii Point or because Xizor simply has stupid amounts of money that he could buy the galaxy with and could convince anyone to join his side. Money talks.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/10 14:09:55


Post by: Crazy_Carnifex


 Peregrine wrote:
Honestly, I'm not really sure what to do with scum. Every time I've seen the starviper and scyk they've been disappointing, and it doesn't look like they're going to be viable competitive options. And lists built around the "shared" rebel ships seem to either end up being clones of existing rebel lists or wishing they had the other rebel options. Meanwhile the firespray pilots are good, but scum firespray-focused lists don't really seem all that different from the imperial versions of those lists. Change TIE fighters into z-95s and it's still essentially the same thing. So that leaves dual IG-88 as the only distinctly scum list I've seen that's even potentially viable, and that list still has major weaknesses with awkward maneuvering and extreme vulnerability to stress.


Yeah, I'm kinda disappointed with Scums unique ships as well from what I've seen. The Starviper wants to be a bulky arc dodger, but its pilot skill is so low, and its maneuver dial so average, it doesn't look like it would be able to do that. Plus, Prince Xixor wants to fly in formation and let some chump take the hits. The Scyk costs 2 points more than a TIE-Fighter, and has a worse maneuver dial. If "Heavy" Scyk was free, it may have been usable. But as-is, I've got to agree with you on them.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/10 16:02:30


Post by: bocatt


 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
Honestly, I'm not really sure what to do with scum. Every time I've seen the starviper and scyk they've been disappointing, and it doesn't look like they're going to be viable competitive options. And lists built around the "shared" rebel ships seem to either end up being clones of existing rebel lists or wishing they had the other rebel options. Meanwhile the firespray pilots are good, but scum firespray-focused lists don't really seem all that different from the imperial versions of those lists. Change TIE fighters into z-95s and it's still essentially the same thing. So that leaves dual IG-88 as the only distinctly scum list I've seen that's even potentially viable, and that list still has major weaknesses with awkward maneuvering and extreme vulnerability to stress.


Yeah, I'm kinda disappointed with Scums unique ships as well from what I've seen. The Starviper wants to be a bulky arc dodger, but its pilot skill is so low, and its maneuver dial so average, it doesn't look like it would be able to do that. Plus, Prince Xixor wants to fly in formation and let some chump take the hits. The Scyk costs 2 points more than a TIE-Fighter, and has a worse maneuver dial. If "Heavy" Scyk was free, it may have been usable. But as-is, I've got to agree with you on them.


You know a TIE fighter doesn't have target lock right. and a targeting computer is 2 points.. and you get a point of PS. And a point of shield instead of a point of hull, which from modifications we know is worth at least one point. So no. It's not "a 2 points more expensive TIE fighter" it's an appropriately costed fighter with a different role. I would prefer the title was free but sadly it's not.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/10 16:27:30


Post by: Crazy_Carnifex


 bocatt wrote:
 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
Honestly, I'm not really sure what to do with scum. Every time I've seen the starviper and scyk they've been disappointing, and it doesn't look like they're going to be viable competitive options. And lists built around the "shared" rebel ships seem to either end up being clones of existing rebel lists or wishing they had the other rebel options. Meanwhile the firespray pilots are good, but scum firespray-focused lists don't really seem all that different from the imperial versions of those lists. Change TIE fighters into z-95s and it's still essentially the same thing. So that leaves dual IG-88 as the only distinctly scum list I've seen that's even potentially viable, and that list still has major weaknesses with awkward maneuvering and extreme vulnerability to stress.


Yeah, I'm kinda disappointed with Scums unique ships as well from what I've seen. The Starviper wants to be a bulky arc dodger, but its pilot skill is so low, and its maneuver dial so average, it doesn't look like it would be able to do that. Plus, Prince Xixor wants to fly in formation and let some chump take the hits. The Scyk costs 2 points more than a TIE-Fighter, and has a worse maneuver dial. If "Heavy" Scyk was free, it may have been usable. But as-is, I've got to agree with you on them.


You know a TIE fighter doesn't have target lock right. and a targeting computer is 2 points.. and you get a point of PS. And a point of shield instead of a point of hull, which from modifications we know is worth at least one point. So no. It's not "a 2 points more expensive TIE fighter" it's an appropriately costed fighter with a different role. I would prefer the title was free but sadly it's not.


Mathematically, a focus token is as good offensively as a target lock. The trade-off is that you can use it defensively, but you can't bank it for later. You are also assuming that a targeting computer is worth 2 points. I would argue that, because of the mathmatical similarity of the two actions offensively, and the superior defensive use of the focus, the Scyk doesn't need to ever take a target lock unless it has no other action. So, I disagree with you that gaining the target-lock action (which it will likely never use) is worth 2 points. I will, however, concede that gaining a shield is worth a point, but wish to deduct some points for the worse maneuver dial.

Also, how does the Scyk fulfill a different role than a TIE Fighter? Both have:
1) Attack 2
2) Agility 3
3) 3 Hits total
4) The barrel role and evade actions.
5) Low point bracket.

So, their main role seems to be cheap, maneuverable fodder. However, the TIE fighter is better at the "Maneuver" and "Cheap" things- it has a higher top speed, it can make a hard 3 turn, and it is 2 points cheaper. PS1 is also an advantage in this role, as it means that you can block your opponents blocker. The Scyk does have a 1-bank maneuver, but this is very similar to the areas already occupied by the 1-turn and 2-all maneuvers, where as the 3-turn puts you in an area with relatively little overlap with other maneuver options.

I could have bought a 13-point fighter, but 14 points is excessive, especially since scum also have the Z-95.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/10 19:27:38


Post by: Peregrine


 bocatt wrote:
You know a TIE fighter doesn't have target lock right. and a targeting computer is 2 points..


So? Since it doesn't get multiple actions a TIE fighter would very rarely use a target lock even if it had one in its action bar. You should never be willing to pay 2 points to add a targeting computer to a TIE fighter (outside of weird situations like supporting Vessery), so the fact that a upgrade costs the same as a different upgrade doesn't mean very much.

and you get a point of PS.


Which is both good and bad. TIE fighters actually benefit quite a bit from being PS 1 because of their role as blockers. Moving first lets them get into position before the target ship can move, and that makes it a lot easier to cut off maneuvering options.

And a point of shield instead of a point of hull, which from modifications we know is worth at least one point.


This assumes that the modifications use the same cost system as the basic stat line, something we know isn't true. A TIE fighter with a shield upgrade is not worth 16 points.

So no. It's not "a 2 points more expensive TIE fighter" it's an appropriately costed fighter with a different role.


The math disagrees with you. The naked scyk is significantly overpriced and not a viable option.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/11 01:14:32


Post by: AegisGrimm


For fun games, I have a pair of conversions of Twi'lek "Deathseeds" that I made out of TIE balls and X-Wing s-foils. I thought about fielding them as "counts as" Scyks, but I realized I would really rather use the profiles of TIE interceptors, even with the possibilities of the Heavy Scyk" card. Seems like I would get more use of upgrades like the Royal Guard titles, as well as great squint pilots.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/11 14:04:40


Post by: locarno24


The 'shared' ships definitely don't end up as clones of rebel fleets. The R4 Agromech, for example, goes a long way to taking the blaster turret from useless to lethal, especially in Kavil's hands.

The Y-wing is a very good ship in scum hands in a way it just isn't - even allowing for the new toys - for Rebels. Kavil's access to an Innate elite pilot talent, and Drea's ability to make torpedoes actually work, are good examples.

The Zs are equally good. I think they're better point for point than the scyk, just given the advantages of the Illicit slot.

And the starviper is good. It's just that you can only really field one effectively, because the Virago title is just that damn good compared to the generic one. And it's not Xisor so much as Guri that I find scary. Combine her ability with fire control system and advanced proton torpedoes, and you have the ability to fire one of the most lethal weapons in the game without needing to use your action to do so - leaving it free to use boost or barrel roll to get the range right.



Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/11 20:49:20


Post by: Crazy_Carnifex


locarno24 wrote:
The 'shared' ships definitely don't end up as clones of rebel fleets. The R4 Agromech, for example, goes a long way to taking the blaster turret from useless to lethal, especially in Kavil's hands.

The Y-wing is a very good ship in scum hands in a way it just isn't - even allowing for the new toys - for Rebels. Kavil's access to an Innate elite pilot talent, and Drea's ability to make torpedoes actually work, are good examples.

The Zs are equally good. I think they're better point for point than the scyk, just given the advantages of the Illicit slot.

And the starviper is good. It's just that you can only really field one effectively, because the Virago title is just that damn good compared to the generic one. And it's not Xisor so much as Guri that I find scary. Combine her ability with fire control system and advanced proton torpedoes, and you have the ability to fire one of the most lethal weapons in the game without needing to use your action to do so - leaving it free to use boost or barrel roll to get the range right.



Yeah, running the old ships with Scum is fun, it's just that the new ships feel underwhelming.

Edit: Problem with Guri is that her pilot skill is so low, a lot of targets worth shooting with APT will just fly away from her after she moves.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/11 21:17:25


Post by: Peregrine


locarno24 wrote:
The 'shared' ships definitely don't end up as clones of rebel fleets. The R4 Agromech, for example, goes a long way to taking the blaster turret from useless to lethal, especially in Kavil's hands.

The Y-wing is a very good ship in scum hands in a way it just isn't - even allowing for the new toys - for Rebels. Kavil's access to an Innate elite pilot talent, and Drea's ability to make torpedoes actually work, are good examples.


Sure, they're not identical in every way, but they feel like rebel ships. Kavil would have worked just fine as a rebel pilot without any modifications. The salvaged droids would have worked just fine as "normal" droids (well, except for giving the e-wing a green k-turn, but that's easy to fix). Scum y-wing lists feel less like a new faction and more like a "rebel aces" expansion with a y-wing buff.

The Zs are equally good. I think they're better point for point than the scyk, just given the advantages of the Illicit slot.


Which is exactly correct, the problem is that we already have a faction with z-95s. The "just like the ships you've already been using" ship crowds out the "new and different" ship, and scum loses a lot of their appeal.

And the starviper is good.


It really isn't. It's an expensive elite ship like the e-wing, but it doesn't have the Corran-type elite pilot that makes a ship like that work. PS 5 is too low to be effective, while the "best" pilot is still only PS 7 and has to fly in formation instead of exploiting his ship's full maneuvering options. And without an evade option or any real tank beyond its three green dice it doesn't have the "WTF WHY WONT YOU DIE" factor of other expensive elite ships.

And it's not Xisor so much as Guri that I find scary. Combine her ability with fire control system and advanced proton torpedoes, and you have the ability to fire one of the most lethal weapons in the game without needing to use your action to do so - leaving it free to use boost or barrel roll to get the range right.


Ok, and now you've spent a ton of points on a PS 5 ship that has to set up a perfect shot. Yeah, you can kill a random rookie x-wing or whatever in one shot, but you're going to have a hard time delivering that APT to any equivalent-price targets.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/11 21:25:22


Post by: Crazy_Carnifex


 Peregrine wrote:
The salvaged droids would have worked just fine as "normal" droids (well, except for giving the e-wing a green k-turn, but that's easy to fix). Scum y-wing lists feel less like a new faction and more like a "rebel aces" expansion with a y-wing buff.


I dunno, A green K-turn would mean that the E-wing would be worth taking asides from Corran.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/12 12:28:31


Post by: ScootyPuffJunior


 Peregrine wrote:
And the starviper is good.

It really isn't. It's an expensive elite ship like the e-wing, but it doesn't have the Corran-type elite pilot that makes a ship like that work. PS 5 is too low to be effective, while the "best" pilot is still only PS 7 and has to fly in formation instead of exploiting his ship's full maneuvering options. And without an evade option or any real tank beyond its three green dice it doesn't have the "WTF WHY WONT YOU DIE" factor of other expensive elite ships.

And yet, it is still possible to win with it.

The player who won with a dual StarViper/M-3A list is a talented player for sure, but he decided to go against what was being said about these Scum ships and went 5-0 in a store championship, beating current meta lists. Just because the internet says "this ship sucks" doesn't mean it can't be used to succeed.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/13 03:28:50


Post by: Peregrine


 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
And yet, it is still possible to win with it.

The player who won with a dual StarViper/M-3A list is a talented player for sure, but he decided to go against what was being said about these Scum ships and went 5-0 in a store championship, beating current meta lists. Just because the internet says "this ship sucks" doesn't mean it can't be used to succeed.


And just because one person wins a local tournament with a ship doesn't mean that it's a good ship, especially since store championships are often fairly casual events and there were (presumably) a lot of people rushing to try all the new scum stuff instead of their perfectly optimized lists. Also, the player who won is a top player in the region who had already won plenty of store championships, which means that he had both little incentive to play a perfectly optimized list and the skill to win despite having a weak list. I'll believe the argument that the math is wrong and those ships are actually good when I see them consistently winning tournaments, preferably in the hands of lower-skill players who wouldn't be expected to win without a list advantage.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/13 11:18:56


Post by: ScootyPuffJunior


 Peregrine wrote:
And just because one person wins a local tournament with a ship doesn't mean that it's a good ship, especially since store championships are often fairly casual events and there were (presumably) a lot of people rushing to try all the new scum stuff instead of their perfectly optimized lists. Also, the player who won is a top player in the region who had already won plenty of store championships, which means that he had both little incentive to play a perfectly optimized list and the skill to win despite having a weak list. I'll believe the argument that the math is wrong and those ships are actually good when I see them consistently winning tournaments, preferably in the hands of lower-skill players who wouldn't be expected to win without a list advantage.
And none of those things disproves my point that if you know what you are doing, it is possible to win with what the internet decides are "suboptimal" ships/lists. I've played against people that have lost terribly but then said, "I don't understand... I used Paul Heavers World's list!" Having a "strong" list doesn't make you better at actually playing the game.

Again, instead of hammering people with "this list sucks" or "that ship sucks," let's talk about using those ships and getting better at the game instead of only sticking to what the internet decides is worth playing. X-Wing is a fun game and lots of people play it that way.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/13 11:49:09


Post by: House Griffith


Hey all, recently played in a small store tournament at 150 points.

I ran 3x Aggressors: IG88B, C, and D, all with PTL, Inertial Dampeners, HLC, Advanced Sensors, and IG2000.

Disclaimer: I am by no means a very good player. I don't get to play very often since I split my time between working, family, 40k, and many other hobbies/interests. That said, I found this list quite fun, but quite challenging to pilot; 3 larges base ships can be a pain to maneuver. I did not get to playtest at all, so I was flying blind.

We only played 3 rounds, and I went 2-1.

First round was against Rebels: List was (roughly): Wes Janson, Keyan Farlander, Dutch Vander, and Kyle Katarn.
So, not a very "good" build, but it had a couple of ion turrets and a lot of weird upgrades - I don't remember them all.
It was a close game; the guy was piloting the list well, but midway through the game, his dice went from very hot to ice cold. It was really kind of impressive.
I was still working on piloting my list, so I had a few mistakes, but overall my weight of firepower carried me.

Second round was against Imperials: List was Chiraneau with the usual upgrades, Howlrunner, 2x Black Squadron Ties, and Soontir Fel. He had 2x Swarm Tactics, so his PS was above mine early on.
Another close game, but I was able to position my ships well to pick off all the TIEs, even Soontir went down quickly due to weight of firepower early in the game.
Inertial dampeners really paid off in this game; my opponent didn't really know what they did, so in the turn I used them (with all 3 IGs) all his TIEs were in my arcs, which he didn't expect.
The agility of the IGs was really important in this game, and my evade dice rolls were on fire; my opponent was in disbelief at the rolls I was making. Things like him firing every ship he had in the 2nd turn at one IG and causing 1x shield carried throughout.

Third round against Imperials: Chiraneau w/ usual upgrades, Soontir w/ upgrades, and Whisper w/ usual Phantom upgrades.
And....here's the game where I got absolutely rolled.
I was kind of annoyed at the guy I was playing, since he basically made his list at the tourney while everyone was getting their stuff out; but the TO didn't really do anything about it.
That said, he piloted it extremely well, and since all his PSs were higher than mine, he was arc dodging like a champ and really pouring on the pain with whisper at close range.

Overall, I learned a few things about these ships and this particular list.
1. I probably didn't utilize PTL as effectively as I could have, and the same for advanced sensors. Because of this, I wish I had gone with the build using VI, FCS, and Autothrusters. Survivability would've been much higher and still able to get a fair amount of actions to do what was needed. The strenghts of the shared abilities of the ships would have made up for the reduced action abilities of PTL.
2. You've gotta practice. Lesson learned - moving around 3 big base ships got to be a challenge, and I would've done better with some games under my belt, but I do what I can.
3. PS6 made things difficult. VI would've helped out here; being able to react with the decent maneuverability would've been huge. As you can see, I was out-PS'd most of the tourney, but managed to overcome some of it through mistakes by opponents.
4. The Segnor's Loop is really good, and even better with the IG88D ability to use the hard-3 turn.
5. Inertial Dampeners seem like an auto-include with this ship going forward; it's cheap, and the utility it provides against lesser PS ships is awesome.
6. The built-in gunner ability provided by IG88B is awesome; it's basically how I killed dudes like soontir and howlrunner.

Overall, the list was fun. I know, most tourneys aren't run at 150. I speculate at 100 points using B + C would be even more challenging.
That said, I think this ship is the best of the bunch from Scum so far; the high evasion and firepower is really great, and feels almost undercosted. The dedicated firing arc is a liability, but if you can fly these right, you'll be fine.
Thanks!


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/13 15:38:12


Post by: Crazy_Carnifex


Got in another two games with my list- and another win and narrow loss.

Win was against a Kath Scarlet/Palob Godalhi/N'dru Suhlak list (I forget the loadout details). Basically, out firesprays and turret ship ran at each other and immediately mixed it up at range 1, resulting in the loss of the HWK and Boba, as well as severe damage to Kath. Y-wing was able to finish off Kath. Our Z-95's meanwhile duked it out on the other side of the borad (I claimed victory due to cluster missiles).

Second game was Against Soontir Fel, Carnor Jax, and a bounty hunter, narrowly lost due to a couple miscalculated moves on my part, plus a couple bad rolls. Twice I managed to just clip a rock with Boba, and couldn't shoot (and I had some good shots if the rocks were 2mm to my left ). Then on the last turn, I ended up just in a damaged Soontirs firing arc, and just failed to get him in my arc. Why didn't I boost? Because I took a damaged sensor array three turns ago, and failed to fix it in time. Had another bit of bad luck where N'dru missed both shots with his cluster missiles, against a defenseless Soontir (who had spent focus trying to kill him). My list now includes munitions failsafe. In the end, my opponent had Soontir left at 2 Hull.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/13 19:43:06


Post by: Peregrine


 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
And none of those things disproves my point that if you know what you are doing, it is possible to win with what the internet decides are "suboptimal" ships/lists.


No, but that's not the point. The person I was responding to with the "the starviper sucks" comment wasn't claiming that it's a bad ship but you can still win games if you have enough of a skill advantage, they were claiming that it's a good ship. There's a huge difference between those two things.

Again, instead of hammering people with "this list sucks" or "that ship sucks," let's talk about using those ships and getting better at the game instead of only sticking to what the internet decides is worth playing.


Why? If the discussion is "how good is {ship}" then why should we lie to people and tell them it's good? Why shouldn't we instead give them an accurate evaluation of the ship, even if that evaluation is "it sucks", and let them decide whether or not they want to use a bad ship in their list?

X-Wing is a fun game and lots of people play it that way.


Yes, lots of people, including most/all of the people who play competitively with only the best ships that the internet approves of. Please keep the "if you netlist you aren't having fun" attitude in GW games where it belongs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 House Griffith wrote:
I know, most tourneys aren't run at 150. I speculate at 100 points using B + C would be even more challenging.


This is an important factor, and why you shouldn't draw too many conclusions from that one event. Playing at 150 points makes your list stronger by giving you three pilot abilities per ship instead of two, and three ships to set up overlapping HLC arcs against high-PS arc dodgers. On the other hand, unless you increase the size of the table, you run out of maneuvering room a lot faster for things like boost + s-loop combinations because there are more ships on the table and more opportunities for them to block you.

And I'll note one other important thing about your experience: you never faced a stress ship. Tacticians and/or R3-A2 will hurt you badly because they shut off your best maneuvering tricks and make you very predictable. And if you get multi-stressed you lose your defensive actions and your stat line isn't good enough without them. That's bad at 150 points where it's only a third of your list, but absolutely crippling at 100 points where half your list is turned into a useless paperweight.

That said, I think this ship is the best of the bunch from Scum so far; the high evasion and firepower is really great, and feels almost undercosted.


Not even close. The scyk and starviper suck (making the aggressor the best of the new ships by virtue of having no competition), but the firespray, y-wing and z-95 are all great. Yeah, it can have its good moments when everything is working right, but it's very easy for your house of cards to fall apart. And, unlike the other three ships, there's only one way to use them. I don't think you can really call a ship "the best of the bunch" when it's completely useless outside of a single specific list.

The dedicated firing arc is a liability, but if you can fly these right, you'll be fine.


The problem is some of the drawbacks can't be countered with skill. You can't take R3-A2 or rebel captive out of your opponent's list, you can't make the table 4'x4' so you have more room to maneuver, you can't keep academy pilots from getting in your way, etc. If you're a good player you're going to have some amazing moments with this ship, but there are just so many ways for your opponent to ruin that perfect world and bring you back to reality.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/14 01:51:55


Post by: ScootyPuffJunior


 Peregrine wrote:
No, but that's not the point. The person I was responding to with the "the starviper sucks" comment wasn't claiming that it's a bad ship but you can still win games if you have enough of a skill advantage, they were claiming that it's a good ship. There's a huge difference between those two things.
It can be a good ship in the hands of a capable player, regardless of what you say. That was my point.

Why? If the discussion is "how good is {ship}" then why should we lie to people and tell them it's good? Why shouldn't we instead give them an accurate evaluation of the ship, even if that evaluation is "it sucks", and let them decide whether or not they want to use a bad ship in their list?
I'm not saying you can't, but your opinion isn't they only valid one.

Yes, lots of people, including most/all of the people who play competitively with only the best ships that the internet approves of. Please keep the "if you netlist you aren't having fun" attitude in GW games where it belongs.
I've never once made that claim nor will I, because it's ludicrous.

As far as playing competitively, people are going to tend to take ships that are considered "good" and for obvious reason (again, I never claimed they wouldn't). The point is, ships you consider to be "bad" can still be played effectively and when I proved that, you're only response was, "Yeah, but..." and, "I think the math..." So you can parrot all of MajorJuggler's "Math Wing?" Good for you, but the lead designer himself said, while useful, it's an incomplete picture of a ship and how it interacts with other ships in your squad. So I'll favor his opinion yours any day of the week.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/14 02:20:44


Post by: Peregrine


 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
It can be a good ship in the hands of a capable player, regardless of what you say. That was my point.


And it's a bad point. A good ship is good independent of who is using it, and a single win by a player who was probably going to win no matter what they used is not proof that a ship is good.

I'm not saying you can't, but your opinion isn't they only valid one.


Well ok, let's hear your opinion then. Why is the starviper a good ship? Don't just post an anecdote about one player winning with it, let's see an explanation of exactly what advantages it has.

The point is, ships you consider to be "bad" can still be played effectively and when I proved that, you're only response was, "Yeah, but..." and, "I think the math..."


You didn't prove anything, and that wasn't my only response. Perhaps you should take another look at my earlier post in this thread, where I explained why the starviper sucks? You even quoted and responded to it, so I know you read it. Or I'll just state its problems again: low PS, no game-changing pilot like Corran, and poor durability.

So you can parrot all of MajorJuggler's "Math Wing?" Good for you, but the lead designer himself said, while useful, it's an incomplete picture of a ship and how it interacts with other ships in your squad. So I'll favor his opinion yours any day of the week.


So what if the lead designer said that? Let's not resort to appeals to authority, especially since it would hardly be the first time that a lead designer was wrong about something (evidence: pretty much every time a GW rule author speaks). If you can't explain WHY things are true instead of trying to cite a higher authority then please don't participate in this discussion.

Also, it's not just about the math, it's about comparing the starviper to other similar ships. The starviper is an expensive "supership" like the e-wing and TIE defender, and has a similar problem with a poor basic stat line that has to be overcome by its fancy tricks and high-end pilots. And let's look at how those ships perform in competitive play: the TIE defender is generally considered to be too expensive and sees limited use, while the non-Corran e-wing pilots are almost nonexistent. So what does Corran have that makes him the single competitive "supership" option? High PS, the ability to sacrifice poor shots on future turns for immediate damage when you have a good opportunity, and powerful synergy between high defense (often with focus + evade stacks) and R2-D2 that keeps him alive long after similar ships would have died. That all comes together to create a ship that is much more powerful than the sum of its parts and give you a good chance of meeting that very high "required performance" number.

So let's look at the starviper and see if it can be like Corran and overcome its poor stat line. High PS? Nope, you're limited to PS 7 at best and the most powerful pilot ability is on the PS 5 version. Good offense? Not really, it's just another 3-dice ship with a FCS at best (and advanced sensors is almost mandatory). Good defense? Not really, it has a poor shield/hull ratio, no HP regeneration, and no evade action. The PS 7 pilot's defensive ability looks good on paper, but in reality it requires you to sacrifice a lot of your maneuvering options to stay in formation and become worthless if your opponent just kills the meatshields first. Good maneuvering? Yeah, lots of tricks with s-loops and advanced sensors, but low PS is a huge problem in a metagame where everything is either PS 1-2 or PS 8+.

In short: the starviper looks like the scum version of the TIE defender. It starts with a poor stat line for its point cost, and doesn't seem to have any of the advantages required to out-perform its stat line like Corran does. And every game I've seen it in confirms this impression. It dies way too easily, and doesn't do enough to justify its point cost before it dies. If you're prepared for Corran/Whisper/Fel/etc then a starviper on the other side of the table isn't all that scary.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/14 04:59:31


Post by: martin74


Ran this tonight.

IG88 B&C. Both with the following upgrades:

Veteran instincts
Advanced sensors
Heavy Laser cannon
Auto thrusters
Inertial dampers
IG-2000.

Went 3-1. The less was to a 4 x-wing list (luke/r2d2, shield upgrade, VI, and three rookie piolots. Astroids did some damage to me too.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/14 09:32:34


Post by: Peregrine


 martin74 wrote:
Went 3-1. The less was to a 4 x-wing list (luke/r2d2, shield upgrade, VI, and three rookie piolots. Astroids did some damage to me too.


What were the lists/players that you beat? It seems a bit odd to me that the only list you had trouble with was the kind of list I'd expect dual aggressors to be best against: not too many ships, no high-PS maneuvering actions, and no stress/ion threats. Was the loss the result of an opponent with a skill and/or luck advantage, or did you have list design problems? And did you win with skill/luck or because your list was good?


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/14 11:38:46


Post by: David Clarke


Since Scum and Villainy has been released my list building has been focused around Firespray's and Y-Wing's, 2 ships that I picked up when I starting out in X-Wing last year but have never found a place in my regular lists.

All the scum Firespray's have something to offer from the very welcome Elite Pilot Talent slot on the generic Mandalorian Mercenary to the heart of the storm madness of scum Boba Fett's pilot ability. So far I've exclusively been running Boba Fett with Stay on Target,Outlaw Tech & Ion Cannon with pretty mixed results. His offensive/defensive re-roll's from his pilot talent are great and deeply frustrating to my opponents but I'm not sure if they are quite enough to counter his need to operate in the range one "danger zone" of enemy ships. Stay on Target & Outlaw Tech are a fun combination that turn any crew slot owning scum ship into a poor man's Keyan Farlander, I've found myself very rarely using the Stay on Target but instead being much more relaxed about k-turning the Firespray to jockey for position as I end up with a focus anyways. The Ion Cannon has just been so Boba can chip in on the control side of the list when firing at range band 3, and is truthfully only in the list as I normally have 3 points spare. Over the next few weeks I am going to be trying the Mandalorian Mercenary, and maybe Kath Scarlet if I can come up with a build for her that appeals to me.

The BTL-A4 title for the Y-Wing is the first thing I remember being genuinely excited about when the Scum & Villainy reveal articles first went up on the FFG site, so I've naturally been trying to put it to best use now that I have ships and cards in hand. For me the only worthwhile turret on the BTL-A4 Y-Wing is the Ion Cannon Turret I like the control element and am not interested in an extremely limited range(autoblaster) or an easily shut down(blaster) turret. No Y-wing is complete without its Astromech and I've mainly been going with the Unhinged Astromech to help open up the Y-Wings dial with some extra green, its a nice idea and actually works beautifully on a non-A4 Y-wing but I regularly found myself overshooting my opponents[especially Ion'd one's] with speed 3 moves and not getting them in arc. I'm now planning on moving over to the R4 agromech which I'd mentally written off as a Blaster turret enabler card, but actually offers scum A4-Y-Wing's incredible action economy on the attack for only 2 points. I'm also a big fan of R4-B11 when paired with Drea Renthal. 3 points for the ability to spend a target lock to make an opponent re-roll defence dice of your choosing is a bit too situational for my liking, but when paired with the ability to renew spent target locks and make multiple attacks it suddenly turns very nasty and a Y-Wing can become a much more significant threat to high agility ships.

Putting it all together my list since Scum and Villainy has looked like this-
Drea Renthal (22)
Ion Cannon Turret (5)
R4-B11 (3)
BTL-A4 Y-Wing (0)

Syndicate Thug (18)
Ion Cannon Turret (5)
Unhinged Astromech (1)
BTL-A4 Y-Wing (0)

Boba Fett (Scum) (39)
Stay On Target (2)
Ion Cannon (3)
Outlaw Tech (2)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

And I've also experimented with-
Boba Fett (Scum) (39)
Stay On Target (2)
Ion Cannon (3)
Outlaw Tech (2)

Kavil (24)
Veteran Instincts (1)
Ion Cannon Turret (5)
Unhinged Astromech (1)

Syndicate Thug (18)
Ion Cannon Turret (5)
BTL-A4 Y-Wing (0)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

Those two lists have won me 4 out of my last 5 games, admittedly in a very friendly relaxed club night atmosphere. I doubt they'd be amazing in a tournament environment but they've been incredibly useful for me getting my head around the dials and capabilities of 2 ships that I just haven't spent the time with before. The list I want to try for the next half-dozen games or so looks like this-
Mandalorian Mercenary (35)
Push the Limit (3)
K4 Security Droid (3)
Engine Upgrade (4)

Drea Renthal (22)
Ion Cannon Turret (5)
R4-B11 (3)
BTL-A4 Y-Wing (0)

Syndicate Thug (18)
Ion Cannon Turret (5)
R4 Agromech (2)
BTL-A4 Y-Wing (0)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

It keeps the Y-Wings that have put in solid service for me, and looses the sheer nuts potential of Boba for a much more versatile triple action, boost capable Mandalorian Mercenary.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/14 12:12:55


Post by: martin74


List one was Han Solo (gunner, expose), Jan Ors, and the cheap Awing. Not sure all the upgrades. His strategy was to give Solo a lot of attack dice. Playing against other builds with the HWK in them taught me to go after it first.

List two had Sontir Fel (PTL, hull upgrade), Kath Scarlet (tactician) and another inteceptor. Once again, not sure of all the upgrades.

List three was had the Bowing elite pilots with a lot of upgrades.

Seems that the IG88 list works well against elite pilots, yet will have trouble against swarms, even though four wings are not a true swarm. The player ran the four swing list well, running Luke Skywalker in getting the shots off, running out and regaining shields in the process. As mentioned, the x-wings took good advantage of the asteroids (using them to get extra defense dice, and I didn't pilot as well, easily losing 4 shields to them).


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/14 17:19:37


Post by: ScootyPuffJunior


 Peregrine wrote:
And it's a bad point. A good ship is good independent of who is using it, and a single win by a player who was probably going to win no matter what they used is not proof that a ship is good.
That couldn't be further from the truth. But I'm sure your vast tournament experience says otherwise, right?

Well ok, let's hear your opinion then. Why is the starviper a good ship? Don't just post an anecdote about one player winning with it, let's see an explanation of exactly what advantages it has.
I know, hearing something that isn't what you think is hard for you, but it will okay.

You didn't prove anything, and that wasn't my only response. Perhaps you should take another look at my earlier post in this thread, where I explained why the starviper sucks? You even quoted and responded to it, so I know you read it. Or I'll just state its problems again: low PS, no game-changing pilot like Corran, and poor durability.
No, I read it... I just don't care that you said it. The ship can win and I don't use math to decide solely on whether a ship is worth playing or not, regardless of why you think it sucks.

So what if the lead designer said that? Let's not resort to appeals to authority, especially since it would hardly be the first time that a lead designer was wrong about something (evidence: pretty much every time a GW rule author speaks). If you can't explain WHY things are true instead of trying to cite a higher authority then please don't participate in this discussion.
I'm not appealing to authority any more you're committing the fallacy fallacy. You're assuming that because you think I'm committing a fallacy, my argument is incorrect, which it isn't. Math Wing isn't the only metric of whether a ship is good or not, period. You can sit there and parrot what other people have decided with, "Well the math says..." and "I think the math will prove..." all you want while thinking your the sole X-Wing genius on Dakka, but you can spare all your copy/paste explanations.

And imagine that, another StarViper list that has performed well in two other tournaments (beating just about every variation of popular meta builds), something that I have no doubt will start happening more and more: http://teamcovenant.com/betes/2015/03/12/double-store-championship-report-with-xizzzzzor/


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/14 18:36:44


Post by: Peregrine


 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
That couldn't be further from the truth.


Which part can't, the fact that good ships are good regardless of who is flying them, or that the tournament winner was a dominant local player who had already won several other store championships and was favored to win (or at least finish in the top few) no matter what ships they decided to experiment with?

I know, hearing something that isn't what you think is hard for you, but it will okay.


Oh, I get it, you aren't refusing to offer any constructive discussion because you have nothing to offer, you're just trying to spare my delicate feelings. It's ok, I'm an adult and I can handle disagreement. So tell us WHY the starviper is good.

No, I read it... I just don't care that you said it.


So you have an explanation for why I think it sucks, yet you still demand an explanation. Ok, makes sense to me.

I'm not appealing to authority any more you're committing the fallacy fallacy. You're assuming that because you think I'm committing a fallacy, my argument is incorrect, which it isn't. Math Wing isn't the only metric of whether a ship is good or not, period.


Like it or not, it was a textbook appeal to authority and the argument sucks. I don't care if the designer says that a certain person's math is limited if you can't tell me why the math is limited. Do you understand the difference between "the math is wrong because X said so" and "the math is wrong because it doesn't account for X"?

You can sit there and parrot what other people have decided with, "Well the math says..." and "I think the math will prove..." all you want while thinking your the sole X-Wing genius on Dakka, but you can spare all your copy/paste explanations.


Oh FFS, can you stop pretending that all I posted was a link to someone else's math? You know perfectly well that I've explained the problem with more than just one particular bit of math, and I haven't copy/pasted anything.

(And it's funny how you complain so much about me supposedly doing nothing but parroting what other people have said when all you've done here is claim that other people prove me wrong without offering anything of your own.)

And imagine that, another StarViper list that has performed well in two other tournaments (beating just about every variation of popular meta builds), something that I have no doubt will start happening more and more: http://teamcovenant.com/betes/2015/03/12/double-store-championship-report-with-xizzzzzor/


The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data'. How about instead of linking to random tournaments where a starviper did well (and of course ignoring all the ones where it didn't) you explain why the ship is good?


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/14 21:17:26


Post by: Azreal13


Oh for the love of...

Peregrine, do you ever get tired of having the same fething conversation in every thread you participate in?

The topic is "what SnV has worked for you" not "tear apart other people's suggestions without offering anything of your own" which is pretty much all you ever do, increasingly, it seems to me, with second hand information you've plagiarised from elsewhere on the web rather than your own experience.

Put forward your own suggestions or clear off.

As to topic.

I'm looking at doing something with Bob, Stay On Target and Navigator, but I can't quite decide on other options to flesh it out. Constructive input (which excludes Peregrine I'm afraid) gratefully accepted.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/14 21:43:51


Post by: David Clarke


I'm not sure that Boba Fett with Stay on Target/Navigator needs any of the other options. As his trick is often going to result in him losing his action I can't see any virtue in engine upgrade which is arguably the most useful modification, bombs are still questionable choices, missiles & torps need target locks that may not happen, cannons are expensive and limited to the forwards arc. On the Other hand a 44 PS8 Firespray which can go anywhere on its dial sounds pretty worthwhile to me and leaves a good number of points left over to fill out with smaller scum ships.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/14 22:02:35


Post by: Azreal13


 David Clarke wrote:
I'm not sure that Boba Fett with Stay on Target/Navigator needs any of the other options. As his trick is often going to result in him losing his action I can't see any virtue in engine upgrade which is arguably the most useful modification, bombs are still questionable choices, missiles & torps need target locks that may not happen, cannons are expensive and limited to the forwards arc. On the Other hand a 44 PS8 Firespray which can go anywhere on its dial sounds pretty worthwhile to me and leaves a good number of points left over to fill out with smaller scum ships.



Yeah, that's one of the options I'm considering.

Inertial Dampers seems like a nice ace-in-the-hole, then up until I used it, I genuinely could perform any manoeuvre I needed. I'm also toying with a defensive upgrade, most likely Stealth Device.

I agree that, currently at least, there's not really any offensive upgrades that will provide a decent return on points, although I'm becoming a big fan of Proton Rockets in general, I'm not sure they add much here.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/14 23:58:31


Post by: Peregrine


 Azreal13 wrote:
The topic is "what SnV has worked for you" not "tear apart other people's suggestions without offering anything of your own" which is pretty much all you ever do, increasingly, it seems to me, with second hand information you've plagiarised from elsewhere on the web rather than your own experience.


I could ask you the same question: do you ever get tired of complaining about how you don't like what I have to say? And I just have to laugh at your bizarre assumption that I'm just plagiarizing information from elsewhere. Obviously I've read the same math analysis as everyone else, but most of my opinions come from playing with ships, playing against them, or watching games with other people using them.

Put forward your own suggestions or clear off.


Sorry, I didn't realize you were a moderator and had the ability to decide that "scum are a disappointment" isn't a valid opinion here.

Constructive input (which excludes Peregrine I'm afraid) gratefully accepted.


And of course, why miss an opportunity to continue your little anti-Peregrine vendetta instead of just proposing ideas? It's funny how someone who gets so upset about seeing other people post negative comments is so eager to post zero-substance whining like that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 David Clarke wrote:
bombs are still questionable choices


Strongly disagree with this. Bombs are incredibly useful, especially now that the firespray has a title card that lets you drop a bomb for damage and still have the threat of a future bomb to limit your opponent's movement options. The mere threat of a seismic charge is often enough to get an opponent to fly around it and do everything they can to avoid that damage. Very few 2-point upgrades give you that kind of control, so unless you're doing something really amazing with those points I'd suggest taking at least 1-2 seismic charges on every firespray.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/15 00:23:46


Post by: Azreal13


 Peregrine wrote:
 Azreal13 wrote:
The topic is "what SnV has worked for you" not "tear apart other people's suggestions without offering anything of your own" which is pretty much all you ever do, increasingly, it seems to me, with second hand information you've plagiarised from elsewhere on the web rather than your own experience.


I could ask you the same question: do you ever get tired of complaining about how you don't like what I have to say? And I just have to laugh at your bizarre assumption that I'm just plagiarizing information from elsewhere. Obviously I've read the same math analysis as everyone else, but most of my opinions come from playing with ships, playing against them, or watching games with other people using them.


I'm not complaining about what you say, as much as the relentlessly aggressive way you choose to express it. It is of course, completely feasible that your opinions and those other people blogged about sometime in the 48 hours before you had them is coincidence, but just remember other people read stuff on the Internet too. I still remember you relentlessly slating Maelstrom in 40K despite never having played a game, which would have been fine in and of itself, if you hadn't jumped down the throat of those who had and said that they liked them.

To answer your question, no, while you continue to post in the manner you do I will not get tired of pulling you up on it.


Put forward your own suggestions or clear off.


Sorry, I didn't realize you were a moderator and had the ability to decide that "scum are a disappointment" isn't a valid opinion here.


I don't have to be a moderator to ask you to stick to one of the main rules of this site (stay on topic,) I would just need to be one to enforce it. The title isn't "what do you think of SnV?" it is "what's worked for you" so in that context "scum are a disappointment" isn't responding to the original premise. If that's how you feel, then perhaps you shouldn't have posted in a thread asking for suggestions on what people had found good?



Constructive input (which excludes Peregrine I'm afraid) gratefully accepted.


And of course, why miss an opportunity to continue your little anti-Peregrine vendetta instead of just proposing ideas? It's funny how someone who gets so upset about seeing other people post negative comments is so eager to post zero-substance whining like that.



You'll notice that my final paragraph in the post you've so meticulously dissected to respond to point by point, was, in actual fact, the very thing you're accusing me of not doing, in fact, somebody responded to that and I replied to their response.

I have no issue with negative comments, I have an issue with unconstructive comments, and if that's making you feel like I have some vendetta against you, maybe that could tell you something about the content of what you choose to post?

EDIT
I won't be responding further on the matter, as I know you essentially log on to fight with people and I won't enable you, just so you know before wasting time on some lengthy response.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/15 00:28:49


Post by: David Clarke


Let me clarify a bit on the bomb's issue. Bomb's suffer from two big problems, firstly they have the ordnance issue where you are investing a portion of your points in a one use effect and secondly versus just about any ship with a good dial and barrel roll/boost they won't hit a thing. High Pilot Skill for the bomb carrier helps mitigate the second problem but it doesn't make bomb's a good option, just as it doesn't make torpedoes or missiles a good choice. If someone has a high concept list based around ordnance then more power to them, but I think we are kidding ourselves if anyone thinks it's good general advice to load up on bombs.

I even agree about the control effect's that having bombs equipped gives a player, but with the caveat that players who rarely see bombs may become quite intimidated by undodgeable area of effect damage. Meanwhile players who've flown against bombs before will just suck it up as part of the price of getting into the best position and the best you can hope for is they end up in a slightly loser formation.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/15 00:31:02


Post by: Peregrine


 Azreal13 wrote:
It is of course, completely feasible that your opinions and those other people blogged about sometime in the 48 hours before you had them is coincidence, but just remember other people read stuff on the Internet too.


I really have no idea what you're talking about. Which person that blogged about "starvipers suck" do you think I'm quoting? I honestly can't remember reading any such post, and my opinions are based on a combination of my own analysis of the ship and watching/playing offline games involving it and talking about it offline with those players.

The title isn't "what do you think of SnV?" it is "what's worked for you" so in that context "scum are a disappointment" isn't responding to the original premise.


Sorry, but "not much" is a valid answer to "what has worked for you". And I will continue to criticize ideas that I disagree with, regardless of your bizarre need to enforce some kind of "positive comments only" policy in a thread that you didn't create or even post in until you decided to continue your anti-Peregrine vendetta.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 David Clarke wrote:
firstly they have the ordnance issue where you are investing a portion of your points in a one use effect


This isn't a huge problem for two reasons:

1) The cost is a lot less. A seismic charge is only 2 points, compared to at least 4 points for a decent missile/torpedo.

2) It's not a one-use effect. The damage a bomb causes is only a small part of its value. The real benefit it gives you is controlling where your opponent can maneuver. If you have a seismic charge on even a PS 2 y-wing or TIE bomber your opponent will very often set up their maneuvers to avoid the spot where your bomb will land just in case you decide to drop it that turn. Even if you don't drop it you've still forced them to make a choice they might not be happy with, and you still have your bomb to force that choice next turn.

and secondly versus just about any ship with a good dial and barrel roll/boost they won't hit a thing.


But maneuver control is still valuable. So what if Fel or Whisper can dodge the bomb at PS 9, that's why you make sure that you set up your ships in a position were dodging the bomb means landing in the arc of at least one of your ships, and having to spend actions on maneuvering instead of defense against that ship.

And of course if you're really worried about missing your target you can always take proximity mines and drop them on top of your target before they can move. An unavoidable three dice worth of damage to Fel/Whisper/etc is pretty nice.

Meanwhile players who've flown against bombs before will just suck it up as part of the price of getting into the best position and the best you can hope for is they end up in a slightly loser formation.


Ok, and now you've paid 2 points for at least one unavoidable damage, potentially more. That's still a good deal.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/15 01:00:52


Post by: Matt1785


Well, the only thing I have considered is a C & D IG-88 combo for the hard turn loop after a boost option... but then again all I can think of is how many other ships have an 8+ PS which makes all the shenanigans in the world pretty meaningless. At best I'm getting to a PS of 8 and then I'm losing out on my elite slot for pushing my PS to only a moderate level, still not top. So I'm losing a point and an upgrade slot.

I agree with Peregrine on the pilot abilities for the Starvipers... Guri's pilot ability is so much better on a higher PS... it's crazy that she has that skill with such low PS. Even with VI she falls into the same problem with Aggressors. Really is a shame though, the Starviper is a really cool ship, and I'd like to think of a way to use it.

Honestly nothing in scum intrigued me more then the Elite Talent on the Mandalorian Mercenary. PS 5 with an elite slot could see an interesting combo with Boba, but meh... In all honesty nothing from scum makes me want to abandon my Decimator / Defender combo... I struggle to leave my Defender off the table...


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/15 01:01:42


Post by: Azreal13


 David Clarke wrote:
Let me clarify a bit on the bomb's issue. Bomb's suffer from two big problems, firstly they have the ordnance issue where you are investing a portion of your points in a one use effect and secondly versus just about any ship with a good dial and barrel roll/boost they won't hit a thing. High Pilot Skill for the bomb carrier helps mitigate the second problem but it doesn't make bomb's a good option, just as it doesn't make torpedoes or missiles a good choice. If someone has a high concept list based around ordnance then more power to them, but I think we are kidding ourselves if anyone thinks it's good general advice to load up on bombs.

I even agree about the control effect's that having bombs equipped gives a player, but with the caveat that players who rarely see bombs may become quite intimidated by undodgeable area of effect damage. Meanwhile players who've flown against bombs before will just suck it up as part of the price of getting into the best position and the best you can hope for is they end up in a slightly loser formation.


I'm inclined to agree.

The first time I encountered a ship packing bombs I was waay too cautious with it, nowadays, as you say, I just accept it as a consequence of being where I want to be. Assuming I encounter anyone running them of course, which is relatively rare in itself.

I would also add a further point to your list of issues, which is that in order to be reliable, they need to be on high PS pilots. The issue I've found when considering bombs is that a) high PS pilots are already expensive and b) you normally want to spend points on upgrades which either enhance the survivability or efficacy of your already pricey pilot, so justifying more points on an upgrade which may or may not be any good is difficult.

For instance, I decided to run Azzameen (sp?) this week in a friendly game, and loaded a couple of Proton bombs on for fun. My opponent decided to bring an equally silly list consisting of precisely two ships, both of which had a higher PS. 10 points wasted. Had he run a low PS swarm, I'd have been laughing, but unless you know what you'll be facing, bombs will always be a bit of a gamble.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Matt1785 wrote:

Honestly nothing in scum intrigued me more then the Elite Talent on the Mandalorian Mercenary. PS 5 with an elite slot could see an interesting combo with Boba, but meh... In all honesty nothing from scum makes me want to abandon my Decimator / Defender combo... I struggle to leave my Defender off the table...


Now, see, the Defender is one of the few ships I don't own yet, but, after the first occasion where the white K turn gave me a headache, I have little difficulty blowing them away because their dial is relatively limited.

How do you run it? My instinct says they need engine upgrade to be sufficiently slippery, and none of the guys I've played using them have equipped them.

I'm working on the Bob I've already mentioned, and, initially, I'm going to pair it with the IG2000, but I've only played one proper game with Scum so far, so I'm still auditioning ships, rather than entire coherent lists.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/15 01:18:24


Post by: Peregrine


 Azreal13 wrote:
For instance, I decided to run Azzameen (sp?) this week in a friendly game, and loaded a couple of Proton bombs on for fun.


Well there's your problem. Proton bombs are weak because they're so expensive. Against higher-PS ships you're essentially paying an extra three points for the same area denial effect of a seismic charge, so it's easy for them to be wasted points. Instead either use seismic charges (cheap area denial and occasional damage) or proximity mines (negate defense dice). And IMO proximity mines are really nice with the bomb firespray. Remember that if you drop a proximity mine on top of a ship it immediately explodes before that ship can move away. You don't have to predict where Whisper/Fel/etc is going to end their maneuvering, you just have to set up your own maneuver to drop the bomb on the place they ended at last turn. And with the 3-length templates to drop your proximity mines it's very hard to hide from them.


PS: I'm still waiting for a link to that author you accused me of plagiarizing. Or are you going to admit you were wrong and apologize?


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/15 01:29:50


Post by: Azreal13


Now, see, that's a constructive post, ignoring the last little remark, you can do it, and thank you.

I won't be linking to any authors because it's a waste of everyone's time. I point to a blog that discusses something you've talked about in your posts, and you deny it, assuming you've not been dumb enough to lift it word for word, we have a your word against mine situation that nobody can win.

Just know that speaking from experience and sharing those is infinitely more useful to a discussion than acting less like a Peregrine and more like a Macaw.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/15 01:53:02


Post by: Matt1785


The last list I ran was..

Rexler Brath:
Veteran Instincts
Heavy Laser Canon

Chiraneau:
Veteran Instincts
Jerjerrod
Fleet Officer
Vader

Ended up finishing 2nd overall. I love the Defender DESPITE the fact it is fairly bad (Really high price for that White K everyone reads a mile away). I have been dabbling with Scum lists... I just haven't been convinced to drop my list yet... although that list will change for the next tournament... slightly I'd imagine.

PS 10 helps me avoid the necessity for boosting, I move last, and while my opponent can block me... I tend to give a wider berth when I have the HLC.

I am still dabbling with Scum.. have been thinking of a Scyk / Fett build that could be interesting... but I haven't fine tuned it yet.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/15 13:07:29


Post by: martin74


I agree that the defender is high priced, However having a stat-line of all 3s isn't too bad. I enjoy running him with the Engine upgrade. The 4k-turn that everyone sees coming then boost is just fun to me.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/15 23:04:23


Post by: SeanDrake


Ran a S&V list for my first ever store tournament and came 6 out of 26 with 2w & 1L and the loss on points.

I threw the list together with minimal planning and while I would not run the exact list again, I would certainly consider using any of the ships in other lists.

So I ran Kath Scarlett w/ PTL,Engine Upgrade,Security Droid.
Kavil w/ PTL,Engine Upgrade,Autoblaster Turret,Unhinged Astromech.
BlackSun Soldier w/ hotshot blaster, Munitions failsafe.

1st games was against an in experienced player with Whisper,Echo and a Tie Defender.
Kavil was a monster in this match dispatching whisper due to being able to ignore defence dice.
Echo found himself at range 1 in Kath's rear arc uncloaked and got vaporised with a 6 die 6 dmg roll.
Leaving the defender to get focused down by everything.

2nd game was against a solid regional player but running a 2 Aggressor b-d list as a test for the next regional.

Kavil stripped the shields of an aggressor but got focused down.
I stripped the shields off the other aggressor with the hot shot blaster and Kath but things were looking grim, when he misjudged and ended up landing the B on an astroid. This caused him to take 1 dmg and left him at range 1 in kaths rear arc, resulting in a dead aggressor this put me about 10pts in the lead. we chased each other for a few turns and time got called, we played the last round and I got another 6 die 6 dmg shot off, but he burned his tokens and defended 4, I shot with the z95 for 2 hits and he fluffed his defense rolls getting 0 and lost the other Aggresor.

Last round was against a 2 time regional winner running
Leebo w/ Mangler Cannon,Determination and somthing else (apparently it's a normal loadout with the HLC swapped for the mangler)
y-wing Gold sq pilot w/ Ion Turret
Y- wing Dutch w/ Ion Turret

This match was basically like fighting the borg in attack wing in that it was like the opposite of fun.

I killed the gold sq pilot and he killed keevil.
Leebo basically would not die and for reasons I am still not entirely sure of he was after various modifications rolling 3 hist with every shot with him .

However nothing else died so I lost on points.

Overall Kath is a monster I will be using her again.

Kavil is makes the autoblaster-turret a real option and with the unhinged mech and engine can actually chase phantoms/slippery buggers down.

The BlackSun Soldier with hotshot blaster is a perfect low point build, you can use him as a blocker and then shoot something else with the turret.

The main thing i have taken away is that S&V are solid but so far lack some of the cheesefest builds imps/rebs have due to synergy. Hopefully this will change once they get some more ships.

I should also say I am by no means a great player and there was some very good players there on the nite, as this venue holds our local regional's. So overall I think S&V have the potential to be very good.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/15 23:28:25


Post by: Peregrine


SeanDrake wrote:
Kavil is makes the autoblaster-turret a real option and with the unhinged mech and engine can actually chase phantoms/slippery buggers down.


I think if you're going to do this you really need VI to at least tie with the phantom's PS. At PS 7 it's way too easy for a phantom or similar ship to get outside the range-1 bubble. Remember that a decloak move covers a range increment worth of distance, on top of the phantom's maneuver and possible barrel roll. So even if you land right on top of the phantom it can usually move away and out of autoblaster range. IMO this kind of makes the ion turret a better option since a 4-dice shot is almost as good as ignoring defense dice and an ionized phantom/interceptor/etc is probably dead next turn since it can't maneuver away. And the range-2 bubble is much harder to avoid entirely.

The main thing i have taken away is that S&V are solid but so far lack some of the cheesefest builds imps/rebs have due to synergy. Hopefully this will change once they get some more ships.


I don't think this is really true. Scum have their share of good ships and builds, they just suffer from poor distribution of their power. Their unique ships are mediocre at best, while their good ships are all copies of existing rebel or imperial stuff. For example, a scum firespray with z-95 escorts is probably a good list, but is it really better than an imperial firespray with a Howlrunner mini-swarm? And then it's easy to look at all the other options the non-scum faction has to go with that "core" of your list and feel like scum is just a weaker version of the existing factions. But I think once you accept that you're limited to the scum variants of rebel/imperial ships you can find some good "cheese" to win with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Azreal13 wrote:
I won't be linking to any authors because it's a waste of everyone's time. I point to a blog that discusses something you've talked about in your posts, and you deny it, assuming you've not been dumb enough to lift it word for word, we have a your word against mine situation that nobody can win.


And yet somehow this "your word against mine" situation that "nobody can win" didn't stop you from posting the accusation in the first place. Nice job destroying all respect I might have ever had for you.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/16 00:07:25


Post by: guardpiper


What has worked for me?

While I have some themed lists I want to run, a Kath themed list, a Black Sun themed list, and an Emon Azzameen with a full load of bombs for the lolz list , I have not had the chance to do it yet, I have played around with the M3-A a bit.

My list was

Serissu with swarm tactics

Palob with VI, Ion Cannon Turret and outlaw tech

N'Dru Sulhak with Lone Wolf

2 cartel spacers

For 97 points.

Overall I like, while the dial is not as good as my beloved A wing they still get around and with Serissu at range one they can be hard to kill when they focus and get that reroll. The lack of firepower while a little sad is not the end of the world.

Palob has been fun, especially when he makes my opponents do an action that he can not steal and it hurts their offense or defense. I still need to figure out what I want to give him crew wise and EPT wise however I liked VI and outlaw tech, but I am want to play around with it and give him the crow title.

I also tried out Torkil with the same basic setup minus VI, getting high level pilots to skill 0 was fun to do.

Finally N'Dru. Poor guy ethier I left him to alone and he got isolated and killed or he was in the mix of things and never got to befit from his abilities. I do not think this was the right list for him, so I want to try Kaa next so he can benfit from Palob.

Final thoughts M3-As are fun to fly and Serissu is definitely a good pilot, I have yet to fly against cluster missiles so i will deal with that when I get to it. Both Torkil and Pabol are annoying ships and need that mini swarm to help bring the heat off of them. And N'Dru I need to learn how to fly him better and get him in a list with less ships, to me at least it seems hard to get the range 2 buffer with him.

These are my experiences at any rate.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/16 00:55:03


Post by: KellyJ


Thug Life.
100 pts.
5x Syndicate Thug + AutoBlaster Turret.
Its not for the timid. If you don't charge in and pin your target down you will get focused down with your 1 evade.
It works well against high Agility guys (Interceptors with Auto-Thrusters, E-Wings, Phantoms) since those ships have few damage points. 3-4 blaster turrets "should" take care of that pest (though in an event last night I had 2 rounds of shooting with 3 turrets (12 shots total) and did zero damage on wedge (I rolled 11 blanks and 1 Focus...which Wes Jansen had just stripped off that ship).
But when you dice go cold for the day, it is irrelevant what your flying.
Against low Agility Targets (Falcons, B-Wings, Decimators) your 3 dice from the main gun can quickly strip tokens and shields so the Crits can start to add up.
This list was especially effective against the 2 ship power build (58 Dash+Corran, Dual Falcon, Dual IG88, etc) Since you have the meat (40 points of damage) to stay alive until you can kill off the sniper ship, then turn around and start mauling the big ship.
Swarms have fallen quickly, being able to kill the linchpin (Howlrunner) without him even touching a green dice (again, you have to get to him and pin him at R1). Then bumpstop the swarm so it gets broken up...half the swarm just behind your Ys (but still in R1 of the rear ships) and the other half bumped against your front line ships (where your turrets can crossfire on the ships they are not touching...again, denying
those TIEs of their 3 Green dice).
Variations that have had success include either 2 or 3 ships having the BTL Title (turrets up front bump the enemy and pin him, crossfiring on other ships, while the BTLs in the rear dump shots on the primary) and a 4 ship list with Kavil and 3 Hired Guns all with Unhinged Mech (leaving a few points to give Kavil a Hull or something).
It is quite a site looking at your opponent when you get in a K-Turn joust and your opponent expects the Y-Wing to move up slow, clearing stress, and instead you charge right back in with a 3-something...clearing stress.

That, and 5 Y-Wings just look intimidating as h3ll as your opponent tries to figure out how he's going to work through 40 points of Damage.
The weakness...if your opponent slow-plays (or takes whatever maximum time limit he is allowed setting dials and moving ships). While your assured up to 2 damage per ship per turn, you're not going to max out. It may take you 2-3 turns to kill the sniper (Corran, Soontir, Phantoms, etc) with the big ship snipping out a Y in 3-4 turns of shooting. After that you need another 2 turns to pin down the big ship and 3 more to get enough damage on him to kill him. Slow-playing kills too much clock-time.
The other weakness is dice. But that's pretty much the same for every squad. If their cold, all you can do is laugh and enjoy the absurdity of life.

The Fat Han + 3 Zs is probably the worst list to face. If you go after Han, between him and the Zs you WILL loose 3 Ys. You killed 50-some points and he killed 60. You lose. If you go after the Zs he kills 2 Y and your at 39-40 points. You lose by 1.
Waiting to playtest the BTL mixes against this setup.

So, here you go X-Wingers. Call out the Rebels as the efite whiners you know them to be. Give the Empire the bird as you seek out riches and fame in the Outer Rim.
It's a THUG LIFE!!!


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/16 00:57:54


Post by: Peregrine


KellyJ wrote:
Call out the Rebels as the efite whiners you know them to be.


Or just take 5x gold squadron y-wings with autoblaster turrets and have the exact same list.

/troll


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/16 02:06:44


Post by: SeanDrake


 Peregrine wrote:
SeanDrake wrote:
Kavil is makes the autoblaster-turret a real option and with the unhinged mech and engine can actually chase phantoms/slippery buggers down.


I think if you're going to do this you really need VI to at least tie with the phantom's PS. At PS 7 it's way too easy for a phantom or similar ship to get outside the range-1 bubble. Remember that a decloak move covers a range increment worth of distance, on top of the phantom's maneuver and possible barrel roll. So even if you land right on top of the phantom it can usually move away and out of autoblaster range. IMO this kind of makes the ion turret a better option since a 4-dice shot is almost as good as ignoring defense dice and an ionized phantom/interceptor/etc is probably dead next turn since it can't maneuver away. And the range-2 bubble is much harder to avoid entirely.


Kavil is already ps7 which ties him with a base level whisper and puts him 1 ahead of echo it worked out ok so far, while it is only temporary i'm sure people really have a hard time getting used to an agile y-wing with set of green 3 manuvers.

On reflection I really want to try a 2 firespray scum list with Kath and Azzerman somthing like this

100 points

Pilots
------

Kath Scarlet (48)
Firespray-31 (38), Stay on Target (2), K4 Security Droid (3), Inertial Dampeners (1), Engine Upgrade (4)

Emon Azzameen (52)
Firespray-31 (36), Proximity Mines (3), Recon Specialist (3), Andrasta (0), Engine Upgrade (4), Proximity Mines (3), Proximity Mines (3)


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/16 02:17:40


Post by: Crazy_Carnifex


SeanDrake wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
SeanDrake wrote:
Kavil is makes the autoblaster-turret a real option and with the unhinged mech and engine can actually chase phantoms/slippery buggers down.


I think if you're going to do this you really need VI to at least tie with the phantom's PS. At PS 7 it's way too easy for a phantom or similar ship to get outside the range-1 bubble. Remember that a decloak move covers a range increment worth of distance, on top of the phantom's maneuver and possible barrel roll. So even if you land right on top of the phantom it can usually move away and out of autoblaster range. IMO this kind of makes the ion turret a better option since a 4-dice shot is almost as good as ignoring defense dice and an ionized phantom/interceptor/etc is probably dead next turn since it can't maneuver away. And the range-2 bubble is much harder to avoid entirely.


Kavil is already ps7 which ties him with a base level whisper and puts him 1 ahead of echo it worked out ok so far, while it is only temporary i'm sure people really have a hard time getting used to an agile y-wing with set of green 3 manuvers.

On reflection I really want to try a 2 firespray scum list with Kath and Azzerman somthing like this

100 points

Pilots
------

Kath Scarlet (48)
Firespray-31 (38), Stay on Target (2), K4 Security Droid (3), Inertial Dampeners (1), Engine Upgrade (4)

Emon Azzameen (52)
Firespray-31 (36), Proximity Mines (3), Recon Specialist (3), Andrasta (0), Engine Upgrade (4), Proximity Mines (3), Proximity Mines (3)


Because no-one ever takes Veteran instincts on a Phantom [/sarcasm]


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/16 03:22:07


Post by: KellyJ


 Peregrine wrote:
KellyJ wrote:
Call out the Rebels as the efite whiners you know them to be.


Or just take 5x gold squadron y-wings with autoblaster turrets and have the exact same list.

/troll


Some one needs a "Sense of Humor" upgrade card. They are zero points afterall.
Yes, the Thug Life can be mirrored with Rebel Y-Wings, though in the 4 ship variations the R2s give green to 1 and 2s while Unhinged gives it to 3s (which is a much better adjustment to the Y dial, IMHO). Kavil has EPT while Salm and Vander don't, though Vander's free TL to another ship can be most useful.
The key component though is the Auto Blaster Turret, which is S&V.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/16 03:26:39


Post by: Peregrine


 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:
Because no-one ever takes Veteran instincts on a Phantom [/sarcasm]


Exactly. VI is almost mandatory on Whisper/Echo. They aren't PS 6/7, they're PS 8/9 with no EPT slot. If you're counting on PS 7 being enough to beat them then you're making a huge mistake.

KellyJ wrote:
Some one needs a "Sense of Humor" upgrade card. They are zero points afterall.


...

You do realize that was a joke, right?


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/16 06:49:09


Post by: KellyJ


Nope. Most net joking has (jk) or some such.
Apologies if I offended.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/16 15:54:34


Post by: House Griffith


Hey Peregrine, this isn't a call-out, but I'm genuinely interested to hear what your thoughts are for an optimized/competitive Scum list.
You mentioned earlier that the faction has it's share of good ships and builds, so what are they?
Thanks!





Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/16 19:37:08


Post by: Zond


I've been enjoying 4 BTL Y Wings with Ion and the Agromech. Not saying it's good mind. :-P


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/16 20:26:36


Post by: Azreal13


Fun > Good, all day every day.

Except maybe tournaments with good prizes.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/17 00:24:59


Post by: Crazy_Carnifex


Take a look at the Starviper, and here's the thing: I think that it's a bad ship compared to the Normal E-wing. Both of them have PS1, Firepower 3, Agility 3, and 5 Total Hit Points. Both have Focus, Target Lock and Barrel Roll.

The differences:

Generic E-wings cost 2 points more. Edge: Starviper

E-wing is much more durable, splitting its HP to favor shields, and having the evade action. While it is more vulnerable to proton bombs, it is less vulnerable to crits, and is capable of boosting its defenses with evade. Starviper puts it's HP in hull, leaving it more susceptible to crits.

E-wing has more options, with sensors and astromechs. Character Starvipers can take the Virago title to gain more options, but then only cost one point less. Edge: E-wing or Draw.

The E-wing has two K-turn options, hard-3's, and a 5-speed maneuver. The Starviper has Seignors loop, hard-1's, and the boost action. So, total number of maneuvers is a Draw, as is number of green maneuvers. However, if the starviper decides to boost, it takes the edge in terms of speed and maneuverability- at the expense of the E-wing gaining an edge in terms of firepower.

So in summary:
Starviper: Edges in cost, Speed.
E-Wing: Edges in Durability, Options, and Firepower.

Keeping in mind that the Generic E-wing is not considered a good ship.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/17 07:15:16


Post by: Peregrine


 House Griffith wrote:
Hey Peregrine, this isn't a call-out, but I'm genuinely interested to hear what your thoughts are for an optimized/competitive Scum list.
You mentioned earlier that the faction has it's share of good ships and builds, so what are they?


I'm not sure about final lists yet, but I'm coming to some conclusions about which ships will be good enough to be pieces of those lists. In order from most useful to least:

Y-wing: "warthogs" with R4s are amazing, both named pilots are at least decent, and the 20-point thug with an autoblaster turret nicely fills the "mid-price ship" hole where you can't buy a high-end ship but don't want to over-invest in a z-95. I'm still unsure about bombs, seismic charges or proximity mines are good options, but it seems like most of the time I run out of points and can't afford them.

Firespray: it's the same ship we know and love, but with (IMO) better pilots than the imperial version. I think all four pilots have the potential to be useful, depending your preferences, but such an expensive ship does put some major constraints on the rest of your list. I think firespray with meatshield escorts (either feedback z-95s or "warthog" y-wings) is going to be a good list, I'm less convinced about the dual firespray option.

Z-95: again, same ship we know and love. Not much to get excited about, but it has good math and drops neatly into pretty much any list that needs some cheap meatshields. Feedback arrays are an interesting option to make the z-95 a much bigger threat against targets it usually struggles to hurt, and N'dru Suhlak is a really efficient flanker. But overall the z-95 is probably going to fall into the "meatshield that supports my more important ships" or "I have 12-15 points left" roles it has in rebel lists rather than being something you build your list around.

HWK: honestly, I'm not sold on the HWK yet. It looks good on paper, but every time I try to put one into a list I feel like I'd rather have a conventional ship instead. I guess the scum HWK will see some use in the same "phantom counter I wish I didn't have to take" role that Roark has. Or maybe someone will figure out how to use Palob Godalhi as more than just a scum equivalent of Biggs. Dace Bonearm and the generic are garbage though, and I doubt they'll ever see any significant use.

Aggressor: I want to love it, but I can't. The dual aggressor list has so much potential on paper, and it's awesome fun when it's working well. But there are just so many ways for it to stop working (R3-A2, blocking academy pilots, etc), and when it fails you want to throw the ship across the room in frustration. I think this will be a fun ship for casual games, but it's probably too inconsistent for competitive tournaments.

Starviper: mediocre at best. It wants to be a Corran-style "supership", but it fails badly. Sure, it's going to be a nightmare for low-PS lists like BBBBZ if you can keep it alive through the initial exchange of fire, but it has so many endgame situations (Corran, Fel, etc) where you have little hope of winning. Maybe it could see some use if something completely unpredictable happens in the future and the current high-PS metagame goes away, but there's no reason to believe that's going to happen any time soon.

Scyk: terrible ship. It's an expensive glass canon that isn't efficient in any realistic situation. Every time I've seen these on the table the player that brought them has regretted it, and I have yet to see any compelling argument that this is just some weird local thing. At most I might be able to see Serissu as a "Biggs" equivalent that draws early fire away from something more important, but I don't know if that's enough to justify spending the points. At least Biggs has 5 HP and a three-dice primary gun.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/17 12:57:23


Post by: streamdragon


I feel like the Scyk should have been 2 points cheaper, to offset the cost of adding the title. Then you can have a cheap space filler, or you can drop points on the not-unique title to go for a deadlier ship. Making the title free doesn't make any sense as the title isn't unique, and has no drawback. But paying 2 points to ... pay points for something else doesn't really make any sense to me for a ship that's already 14 points and fragile.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/17 13:40:55


Post by: Azreal13


Agreed on the Scyks, I think they're another A Wing/Advanced and they've got them wrong, but I wouldn't be surprised to see an adjustment in future waves.

As it stands, it is tough to make a compelling case for them over the Zs at the lower end of their cost or the Ys at the higher.

I guess it is that flexibility we're expected to pay for, but flexibility seems to be a thing that games developers consistently over price.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/17 16:44:10


Post by: derek


 streamdragon wrote:
Making the title free doesn't make any sense as the title isn't unique, and has no drawback.


They did that for the Tie Interceptor, and A-Wing titles though. They're both non-unique, free, and allow you to take an additional upgrade with no drawback other than paying the cost for the 2nd Modification or EPT.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/17 17:14:48


Post by: Crazy_Carnifex


I think that what they may have been thinking with the Scyk is that they did not want it to be possible to swarm with cannons- You could run 4 Ion Cannons and 2 Flechette cannons if there was no cost to the title. Problem is, it also kinda wrecks any other use of the Scyk.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/17 19:14:49


Post by: Peregrine


 streamdragon wrote:
But paying 2 points to ... pay points for something else doesn't really make any sense to me for a ship that's already 14 points and fragile.


I think the idea was that they didn't want to have the same problem that the a-wing did, where you pay for the missile slot by default but when you don't use it the ship is too expensive. The title is the inverse of the a-wing refit: the ship starts cheap, but you pay to add the upgrade slot. Which would have been great if the basic ship was worth using, but it doesn't seem to have much value. And I don't think making them start at 12 points with a 2-point title was the answer, because then you've got a ship that is just plain better than the TIE fighter (a ship that already sets the standard for jousting efficiency) for the same cost.

 derek wrote:
They did that for the Tie Interceptor, and A-Wing titles though. They're both non-unique, free, and allow you to take an additional upgrade with no drawback other than paying the cost for the 2nd Modification or EPT.


Only because those ships had already been printed and it was impossible to go back and edit the upgrade options for the old pilots. If FFG had decided to add those upgrade slots back when the ships were originally designed then they would have been built into the upgrade bar and there wouldn't have been any title cards for the a-wing or TIE advanced (maybe the interceptor one would needed a title since modifications aren't shown in the upgrade bar and there's no room for extra rules text on the ship card).


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/17 21:35:40


Post by: derek


 Peregrine wrote:

 derek wrote:
They did that for the Tie Interceptor, and A-Wing titles though. They're both non-unique, free, and allow you to take an additional upgrade with no drawback other than paying the cost for the 2nd Modification or EPT.


Only because those ships had already been printed and it was impossible to go back and edit the upgrade options for the old pilots. If FFG had decided to add those upgrade slots back when the ships were originally designed then they would have been built into the upgrade bar and there wouldn't have been any title cards for the a-wing or TIE advanced (maybe the interceptor one would needed a title since modifications aren't shown in the upgrade bar and there's no room for extra rules text on the ship card).


That explanation doesn't make a lot of sense for the A-Wing. Are you arguing that Tycho and Green Squadron Pilots should have had 2 EPT slots from the start?


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/18 06:45:13


Post by: Peregrine


 derek wrote:
That explanation doesn't make a lot of sense for the A-Wing. Are you arguing that Tycho and Green Squadron Pilots should have had 2 EPT slots from the start?


That's exactly what I'm saying: by publishing a zero-cost title that adds a second EPT to those two ships FFG is saying "these should have been included". You are always going to add the title unless you're too poor to afford a copy of the card. Therefore there is no functional difference between adding the a-wing title and adding a second EPT directly to Tycho's card. The only reason to do it as a title is so that FFG could go back and include previously-printed pilots (instead of just the new ones in rebel aces) without violating their "no changes to existing cards" policy. This principle wouldn't apply to the scyk because it's an entirely new ship with no previously-published ships to update.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/18 12:27:15


Post by: streamdragon


derek wrote:
They did that for the Tie Interceptor, and A-Wing titles though. They're both non-unique, free, and allow you to take an additional upgrade with no drawback other than paying the cost for the 2nd Modification or EPT.

Ah, fair enough. I don't have either of those ships so I was unaware of the title.

Peregrine wrote:I think the idea was that they didn't want to have the same problem that the a-wing did, where you pay for the missile slot by default but when you don't use it the ship is too expensive. The title is the inverse of the a-wing refit: the ship starts cheap, but you pay to add the upgrade slot. Which would have been great if the basic ship was worth using, but it doesn't seem to have much value. And I don't think making them start at 12 points with a 2-point title was the answer, because then you've got a ship that is just plain better than the TIE fighter (a ship that already sets the standard for jousting efficiency) for the same cost.

So... 13 points then? Would a 1 point drop make the Scyk go from "Why would you take this" to "this is a workable option"? Or is that the Scyk would still have no role to fill in a Scum list? I'm fairly new to X-Wing, so I'm probably missing something. Is it just that the Scyk competes with a Z for a chaff role, and the Z does everything better?


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/18 23:31:08


Post by: Powerguy


 streamdragon wrote:
derek wrote:
They did that for the Tie Interceptor, and A-Wing titles though. They're both non-unique, free, and allow you to take an additional upgrade with no drawback other than paying the cost for the 2nd Modification or EPT.

Ah, fair enough. I don't have either of those ships so I was unaware of the title.

Peregrine wrote:I think the idea was that they didn't want to have the same problem that the a-wing did, where you pay for the missile slot by default but when you don't use it the ship is too expensive. The title is the inverse of the a-wing refit: the ship starts cheap, but you pay to add the upgrade slot. Which would have been great if the basic ship was worth using, but it doesn't seem to have much value. And I don't think making them start at 12 points with a 2-point title was the answer, because then you've got a ship that is just plain better than the TIE fighter (a ship that already sets the standard for jousting efficiency) for the same cost.

So... 13 points then? Would a 1 point drop make the Scyk go from "Why would you take this" to "this is a workable option"? Or is that the Scyk would still have no role to fill in a Scum list? I'm fairly new to X-Wing, so I'm probably missing something. Is it just that the Scyk competes with a Z for a chaff role, and the Z does everything better?

Yeah the overlap with the Z-95 is the main issue I think and is why this is so hard to balance. The Z and the standard Tie have similar roles, cost and stats and the Scyk is very close to them as well, as soon as you have two of the three in the same faction its going to be very hard to give them both a place. If a Scyk was 12pts its basically a slightly better Tie and it would be rare to take it over a Z, but at 13pts I'm not sure you take it over the Z. Imo its paying a 1-2pt tax to allow for the fact that it can take a 2pt upgrade which gives it a significant increase in options, but it means that the basic ship is slightly overcosted.

Anyway, the scum ship that has impressed me the most has been the Y-Wing - firing both weapons gives it incredible damage output and they take quite a bit of work to remove (it seems like they last longer than B-Wings for some reason). The Autoblaster version seems fun, but I think the Ion version is going to be the strongest as it helps counter some of your manuevering issues - if you set it up right you get a range 3 shot with focus to maybe chip a few HP, and then get a range 1 shot with TL+Focus + TL. Z-95s are just as good as they are with Rebels, although the fact that they start with an Illicit slot means I have seen people spaming Hot Shots with them (the idea being that you can block most decloak positions for a Phantom and still get shots off). The only HWK that seems interesting is Torkil, aside from the obvious Phantom counter I think he has one of the most powerful pilot abilities in the game - dropping Han or Soontir down to PS0 so that all your ships can blast them to strip tokens and allow for game changing crits is huge. Double Aggressor seems cool, but is going to have huge issues against control builds and your options are very limited as soon as you take two of them. The Starviper I am actually really enjoying, Xizor is an anti Biggs in the first pass and once formations break up it can do a heap of work and close out games. The trick is to think of it as a maneuverable B-Wing rather than an Interceptor. Even once you break formation its amazing how often you end up at range 1 of another ship and can spread damage around - Autothrusters + arc dodging + Xizors ability means I have never been close to losing him. I actually feel like I should be flying him more aggressively to try and get people to shoot him on the first pass.

The list I have been running is:
Xizor, VI, Virago, Fire Control, Autothrusters and Inertial Dampeners
2 Thugs with Ion Turret, BTL-A4 and R4 Agromech
Binaye Pirate


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/19 01:32:16


Post by: martin74


Today played three games with my IG88 B&C list. Look at earlier post for full list.

Game 1: won against a 5 tie fighter/interceptor list. Anchored by Carnor Jax. Didn't have a lot of problems until he clogged up my flight lanes. After some time I just wore that fleet down.

Game 2: Lost to a BBXX rebel list. Red squadron x2, Dagger Squadron w/ advanced sensors x2. He played well, concentrating on a single ship at a time. This seems to prove that lower PS rebels seem to be a problem.

Game 3: Han Solo, expose. Jan Ors, and a cheap A-Wing. Took down Jan first, then the poor A wing. I realized how good auto thruster were this game. First time I have seen Han (or any other Yt-1300) do a K-turn. Man use red and concentrated fire.

Have a tournament this Saturday, thinking of running the double IG list. Will post results.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/19 02:13:22


Post by: Peregrine


Powerguy wrote:
Xizor is an anti Biggs in the first pass and once formations break up it can do a heap of work and close out games.


The problem with this theory is that it only works against certain lists. Against an opponent with nothing but low-PS jousting ships Xizor is going to be amazing. You can't shoot at him effectively while his meatshields are on the table, but once he gets into endgame you probably won't have enough ships left to catch him in arc. So you have the rare ability to bring a powerful endgame ship that has its own inherent ability to reach the end of the game without getting focused on and killed. The problem is that this plan falls apart entirely when your opponent brings their own endgame ship. Corran, Fel, etc will consistently beat Xizor, so now your plan of "let my ace win the game" is no longer valid and your focus on setting up Xizor endgames just hands easy wins to your opponent.

The trick is to think of it as a maneuverable B-Wing rather than an Interceptor.


I disagree with this. The b-wing is good because it's a very cost-effective ship. At 22-25 points you have good firepower, good durability, and HP-focused defense that doesn't fall apart instantly once the green dice betray you. But the starviper isn't a 25-point "jousting efficiency" ship, it's a 40+ point "supership". If you treat it like a b-wing you're just throwing away tons of points on upgrades that aren't helping you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 streamdragon wrote:
So... 13 points then? Would a 1 point drop make the Scyk go from "Why would you take this" to "this is a workable option"?


Maybe. One point might not seem like much, but it's a 7% drop in price.

Or is that the Scyk would still have no role to fill in a Scum list? I'm fairly new to X-Wing, so I'm probably missing something. Is it just that the Scyk competes with a Z for a chaff role, and the Z does everything better?


I think this is more likely though. Even if the scyk is in some abstract sense "worth 13 points" the naked scyk is trying to fill the same cheap meatshield/blocker role as the z-95. And that's a role where getting the cheapest possible ship is the top priority, and it isn't usually worth spending points on upgrading them. So the naked scyk can't just be equal to the z-95, it has to be better by a large enough margin that you feel justified in spending points on upgrading your meatshields at all.

The role where the scyk could in theory work is with the title, but the execution of the concept didn't work. Missile/torpedo versions are bad because the weapons are bad, and cannon versions are way too fragile for their high point cost. Maybe if/when we get a missile/torpedo fix the scyk will improve in value, but right now it's just a disappointment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 martin74 wrote:
Game 3: Han Solo, expose. Jan Ors, and a cheap A-Wing. Took down Jan first, then the poor A wing. I realized how good auto thruster were this game. First time I have seen Han (or any other Yt-1300) do a K-turn. Man use red and concentrated fire.


I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from this game. That's a really bad list, especially against autothrusters.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/19 07:53:34


Post by: David Clarke


One of the things I get about the Scyk or the Starviper for that matter is why they bothered with putting titles in at all. A 16 point ship with cannon/missile/torp or 26 point ship with sensor slot & illicit would have changed my initial evaluations of those ships greatly.

After my last two games last night I have nothing but love for the K4 security droid. In my first game combo'd with Push the Limit I was reliably getting 3 actions every turn I was engaged with the enemy, but it was in my second where my opponent gave me the theoretical nightmare of repeated blocking and flechette cannon stress infliction being able to reliably get a target lock every turn turned the K4 into a firespray advanced sensors equivalent.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/19 08:09:46


Post by: Peregrine


 David Clarke wrote:
One of the things I get about the Scyk or the Starviper for that matter is why they bothered with putting titles in at all. A 16 point ship with cannon/missile/torp or 26 point ship with sensor slot & illicit would have changed my initial evaluations of those ships greatly.


Because of the history with the a-wing would be my guess. They released it initially with a missile slot included by default, but few people thought it was worth paying for that missile slot. So, to fix the cost issue, FFG published the refit upgrade that spends the missile slot for -2 points. With the scyk they did it the right way and made the cheap no-upgrades ship the default and gave you a choice of which upgrade slot, if any, to add. Otherwise if you weren't going to use the secondary weapon upgrade the 16-point scyk would pretty clearly be the worst ship in the game. And with the starviper they accomplished the same goal, but with the added bonus of limiting the upgrade slots to the unique pilots (and only one of them if you use two starvipers for some odd reason) without having to print different upgrade bars for the generics and have people wonder if it was a mistake.

After my last two games last night I have nothing but love for the K4 security droid. In my first game combo'd with Push the Limit I was reliably getting 3 actions every turn I was engaged with the enemy, but it was in my second where my opponent gave me the theoretical nightmare of repeated blocking and flechette cannon stress infliction being able to reliably get a target lock every turn turned the K4 into a firespray advanced sensors equivalent.


The K4 is good on PTL ships (or any other ship that expects to have to do greens anyway), as long as you're willing to have a target lock as your bonus action. But it does have some tough competition. Gunner gives you an alternative form of no-action firepower, recon specialist gives you an extra focus for defense, etc.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/22 08:27:56


Post by: David Clarke


The K4 is good on PTL ships (or any other ship that expects to have to do greens anyway), as long as you're willing to have a target lock as your bonus action. But it does have some tough competition. Gunner gives you an alternative form of no-action firepower, recon specialist gives you an extra focus for defense, etc.


I definitely agree that the crew slot competition is pretty fierce. Having an Elite Pilot Talent slot and Crew as standard is a really big selling point on the scum firespray for me at the moment. Odds are the ship can be customised to the role you need it for provided you have the points.

Got another couple of games in now and have changed my list around to-
Kath Scarlet (Scum) (38)
Push the Limit (3)
Seismic Charges (2)
K4 Security Droid (3)
Engine Upgrade (4)

Syndicate Thug (18)
Ion Cannon Turret (5)
R4 Agromech (2)
BTL-A4 Y-Wing (0)

Syndicate Thug (18)
Ion Cannon Turret (5)
R4 Agromech (2)
BTL-A4 Y-Wing (0)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

The action efficiency from R4 Agromech is pure joy, especially when they can find a big ship to chew up. Kath is a massive improvement over the already quite respectable Mandalorian mercenary, the disruptive effect of people trying not be in that rear arc has been worth those 3 extra points for me. Never got round to using the seismic charge in either of my games, my opponents were too scared of the rear arc and my control game just isn't up to keeping them there. Thinking about swapping it out for a flechette torpedo and the Slave 1 title on Kath to give her opening shots a bit more of a control effect/limit opponents manoeuvre options. Anyone got any ideas about how to spend those last 2 points?


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/22 23:48:57


Post by: buckero0




Syndicate Thug (18)
Ion Cannon Turret (5)
R4 Agromech (2)
BTL-A4 Y-Wing (0)

I like the R4B11 on one of them
Because of the 1-2 pass of the BTL-A4, I'd probably rather just get the target lock up front instead of the focus and then hope they're still in your arc to shoot next turn. I've never read that you can use the target lock immediately ( I guess you could use it on your secondary weapon but I'd rather have it for the entire combat phase as your two primary attacks don't always have a great chance of damaging middle to high defense ships


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Instead of the seismic charge ( and I love all bombs) you could do inertial dampeners and give you're opponents nightmares as to which way you're going ~ are you stopping or starting? I really love predator on the fire spray BC I can't roll dice well.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/23 00:18:02


Post by: Peregrine


buckero0 wrote:
I've never read that you can use the target lock immediately


That's because it's so obvious that it doesn't need to be stated explicitly. If you have a target lock you can spend it. As soon as you spend the focus token (even if you don't modify any {eye} results) you immediately get the target lock before you leave the "modify dice" step. You can spend it immediately to modify the current dice, or you can save it to spend it on the second attack from the A4 title (as well as hypothetical other attacks from gunner/cluster missiles/etc if there's ever a way to combine them with an R4).

The only exception to "you can spend it immediately" is cards that explicitly state that you can't. For example, R5-K6 explicitly says that you can not spend the new target lock on the current attack. You can, of course, spend it on another attack that turn (A4 title, Corran's double-tap, etc).


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/23 01:10:19


Post by: Compel


I did alright with this list.

Black Sun Soldier (13) x 3

Kaa’to Leeachos (17)
Z-95 Headhunter (15), Bodyguard (2)

Guri (43)
StarViper (30), Veteran Instincts (1), Advanced Proton Torpedoes (6), Virago (1), Autothrusters (2), Fire-Control System (2), Inertial Dampeners (1)

---------------------------------------------------

Admittedly, several elements of it were because I was trying to make up the points from my lack of general scum ships/upgrades and I never did get to fire my Advanced Proton Torpedoes (next time, Gadget, next time! *Shakes fist*)

However, the general concept of it all seemed to work quite well together. Leeachos stealing a Focus from a Z-95 that was out of arc-ish, or not going to get shot at, then converting it to the +1 agility for the Virago worked rather well.

And the Virago's turns (including the S-Turn), made it a pretty good flanker for the Z-95 squad.

I'm not going to claim it's the be-all-and-end-all or anything, but there was elements of it, I was pretty darn pleased with.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/23 01:12:49


Post by: buckero0


I guess (from my inexperience) then, wouldn't the target lock still be better? For some reason I thought the target lock worked for the whole turn (both shots primary and secondary turret) and the focus only worked on the first round. Please correct me if I'm wrong


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/23 01:17:57


Post by: Compel


Basically, whenever you receive the Target Lock, or Focus tokens (or evade, for that matter), you put them beside your ship and they're effectively "banked."

Whenever you use one of these tokens, you're actually 'spending' it and so, removing it from your ship and the game (or, depending on the ships special rules, possibly 'trading' to someone else.)

Generally speaking, once you've used the token, it's removed from the game.

Also, at the end of a round, basically, all green tokens, are removed from the board - Generally speaking, that's all of them except for target locks and Cloaks. (Generally speaking).

Try to have a watch of these, to see if there's anything else you've missed.




Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/24 14:41:31


Post by: GrimDork


Huh, looks like something to check out, just in case.

So, I may try to get out for a small gamestore tournament and I want to bring Scum just because, thinking of bringing something like:

Kavil, r4 agromech,blaster turret, VI (31)

Syndicate Thug, title/warthog r4 agromeh, ion turret (25)

Suhlak, lone wolf (19)

2x pirates (24)

I figure it's got quite a few ships, a couple of which are kind of tough, Kavil can try to blow up arc dodgers with his (probably) 4 dice turret and can probably keep the focus up since he doesn't need to turn around and stay in arc as much. I can send Suhlak down the flank to either cause trouble or be a distraction and let the others get off a nasty round of flank shots.

Or I could be going in the wrong direction. I figure it's a pretty straightforward plan with simple ships that don't have a lot of fancy maneuver tricks, which should be easy on me since I'm still a n00b.

Would I be better served with something along the lines of firespray/Boba+warthogs?


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/24 22:05:01


Post by: David Clarke


I don't think there's anything wrong with that list. My personal preference would be changing out Kavil's Blaster turret for an Ion Cannon Turret, which you have a spare point to play with so could try.

I just find 3 ships a lot easier to fly than 5 so prefer 2 Warthogs and a Firespray over a swarm build. If you're comfortable flying that many ships then go with it. Non-Phantom based opponents are probably going to struggle when you bring numbers to the table. At the end of the day the list you take to a tournament needs to be something you're comfortable playing multiple practice games with and then playing games for most of a day at a tournament, so the more you like it the less bored you'll probably get with it.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/25 00:03:10


Post by: GrimDork


^Good advice, I need to try the Firespray variation a bit more, I just recently managed to get 'hold of one so it hadn't been included in my plans until very recently.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/25 04:34:30


Post by: bocatt


Just wanted to add "something" that worked for me to this thread:

Phantom Counter Kavil (32 points)
VI
Unhinged Astromech
Autoblaster Turret
Engine Upgrade

I just tested this in 3 games against a regular Imperial player that brought a regular Imperial List with Whisper and all the fixins. as long as he was moving first and shooting first, this Kavil did work. Dodging arcs and almost always being at range 1 of Whisper. I never once worried about not having the right maneuver or hitting an Asteroid. Against Echo, your strengths are exaggerated even more.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/25 19:57:12


Post by: EmpNortonII


SeanDrake wrote:


1st games was against an in experienced player with Whisper,Echo and a Tie Defender.
Kavil was a monster in this match dispatching whisper due to being able to ignore defence dice.
Echo found himself at range 1 in Kath's rear arc uncloaked and got vaporised with a 6 die 6 dmg roll.
Leaving the defender to get focused down by everything.


OK. I missed something here.

Kath is attack 3. Rear arc +1 to 4. Range 1 +1 to 5.

How did you get six dice? What am I missing here, Dakkanaughts?


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/25 20:11:57


Post by: Peregrine


 EmpNortonII wrote:
OK. I missed something here.

Kath is attack 3. Rear arc +1 to 4. Range 1 +1 to 5.

How did you get six dice? What am I missing here, Dakkanaughts?


You aren't missing anything. The maximum is five dice, not six, and the player you quoted made a game-changing mistake.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/25 20:13:57


Post by: Compel


 EmpNortonII wrote:

OK. I missed something here.

Kath is attack 3. Rear arc +1 to 4. Range 1 +1 to 5.

How did you get six dice? What am I missing here, Dakkanaughts?


Opportunist, maybe? That'd do it.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/25 21:23:52


Post by: Crazy_Carnifex


 Compel wrote:
 EmpNortonII wrote:

OK. I missed something here.

Kath is attack 3. Rear arc +1 to 4. Range 1 +1 to 5.

How did you get six dice? What am I missing here, Dakkanaughts?


Opportunist, maybe? That'd do it.


Or expose.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/25 22:49:35


Post by: Peregrine


 Compel wrote:
Opportunist, maybe? That'd do it.




It would, but the ship in question didn't have either. If you look at the post with the story about the six-dice firespray you'll see that it had PTL and therefore no way to get six dice legally.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/26 00:29:14


Post by: Haight


I haven't really hit on a fleet i like yet (other than mobs of Binyare's ... but that's kind of boring, even if it is effective), but i'm absolutely loving a Y-wing with the YTL title card, an ion cannon secondary weapon, and then the new scum droid that makes "3" maneuvers green (though the "spend a focus token, get a target lock" droid is hot too).

Good googly moogly can that combination make for a scarily maneuverable Y-wing that can really ruin an opponent's plan and put some heat on a target. A bit pricey, but i think worth it for a fairly maneuverable tank ship that can throw two attacks a turn on a target, one of them with hideous consequences.

I've also been enjoying Kath Scarlett's scum pilot in larger games where i have some points to kit her up decently.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/29 04:47:05


Post by: GrimDork


Played that list I posted three times today, didn't win the tournament but I did win 2 of my 3 games, so that's pretty cool.

My takeaway is that Kavil is a beast. I *really* liked VI on him in combination with the Initiative bid, he pretty much always got to shoot first all day. It's proving a bit tricky to fly him as I'm not as used to the y-wing dial as I am some ships, and he flies a bit differently than others as he wants to NOT have people in his main arc. Also range 2 is not range 3, and with limited maneuvers that won't stress him and remove his ability to focus, just gonna take some getting used to flying. But damn, that 4 dice blaster turret with the target lock is a monster. I realize it's anecdotal as it was just three games, but that gun can just smoke ships off the board.

The warthog y-wing with agromech and ion turret was also brutal. He managed to Ionize both Kath Scarlet over two rounds, and nearly chase Abaht off the board as the first shot tended to eat up defensive tokens leaving the Ion to barely sail past the defense dice. This thing is a scary ship for the price, wondering if I wouldn't want more than one somehow...

The pirates did their job as expected, the only ship I'm not sure about was Suhlak. While he did manage to bait some fire to come his way, I almost always ended up losing him or having him end up too close to allies in order to engage the best targets. Distraction is good but I'm just wondering...

Maybe take my spare point and swith Suhlak to Serissu and basically just fly them around in a squad? Kavil would obviously start veering off eventually but the Scyk could easily keep up. No room for upgrades as the list stands though, but such a killable target may draw just as much fire as Suhlak while also providing a benefit.


I'm also thinking of looking into a 50 point Firespray with a couple of Ion Warthogs as escort, still a reasonable amount of hull and shields... I would assume to build around the Y-wings ionizing things with their second shot and the Firespray using whatever gimmick it's pilot or elite pilot talent (in the case of the mandalorian) offered up.. haven't had a chance to play around with it yet.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/29 12:16:22


Post by: Compel


Remember you need 2 ion tokens on a large ship like a firespray in the same round to actually ion them.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/29 12:29:40


Post by: GrimDork


Yeah, my opponent didn't remember that, but I did. I got two rounds of fire off before the ships passed each other.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/29 13:26:09


Post by: bocatt


 Compel wrote:
Remember you need 2 ion tokens on a large ship like a firespray in the same round to actually ion them.


It's not in the same round. A large based ship with one ion token is RAW "ionized" for any such rules interactions that call for a target that is ionized but does not remove the ion token(s) at the end of the round unless the maneuver effect has taken place. At which point the ship can then remove all ion tokens from itself.

I checked the reference card just to be sure.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/29 13:38:49


Post by: GrimDork


It's in the little extra booklet for any large ship.

"Blah blah receive token.... Large ship unaffected by one token; token simply remains assigned to the ship. When a large ship has two or more ion tokens assigned to it, it suffers the ion token effect as normal. Then remove all ion tokens from the ship."

I don't think we were misinterpreting that any.

Then in the end phase, the only tokens specifically removed are focus and evade.. so yeah, think we were correct.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/03/30 01:07:17


Post by: buckero0


I played a list that was fun if not slightly competitive.

Guri virago stealth device sensor jammer predator

Mand Merc predator ( I find getting in shots that count matters more than shooting first for me)

Scyk with Mangler

The scyk is so disappointing- not that he did poorly, just that he costs so much. I may drop the stealth device and get two pirates

I used Emon Azzy and was disgusted with him, I really like the plain mercs, although I see potential with Boba N Kath they just get really expensive.

What crew do you guys suggest with a Merc and predator? I like the hot shot blaster but can't always justify the cost


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/04/02 09:22:41


Post by: Peregrine


buckero0 wrote:
Guri virago stealth device sensor jammer predator


This is a bad idea. Stealth is worth much less than autothrusters, and the sensor jammer is a marginal upgrade at best in a list that doesn't have any action denial. You really want advanced sensors on the starviper if you're going to use it at all, the ability to get actions before s-looping or boost/br to change your angle is really valuable. Not that I'd use a starviper at all though, as it's just not a good ship for the point cost.

I used Emon Azzy and was disgusted with him


You might want to take a look at this article then: http://teamcovenant.com/hothie/2015/03/08/the-slingshot/

What crew do you guys suggest with a Merc and predator?


Recon specialist. The K4 droid is good with PTL, but you've already got a re-roll on attack dice from predator. So that leaves recon specialist as the only way to get extra "actions" out of your crew slot. The only other option I'd consider is gunner, but that's more points for an upgrade that IMO isn't as consistently useful as the extra focus tokens.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/04/02 11:59:51


Post by: GrimDork


That bomb thing looks fun.

So does 6 Z's and maybe Serrisu work *kind of* like a 7 tie swarm or are the things that make a tie swarm work not in place for Z's?



Could squeeze Suh'lak with clusters into the list but probably better to use something like a stealth device on serrisu I would think.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/04/02 19:48:33


Post by: Turnip Jedi


Considering flying the following as my first Scum list

Torkhil Mux with Blaster Turret and Recon Specialist
2 x Syndicate Thug Y-Wing with BTL title, Ion Turrets and R4 Agromech
2 x Binayre Pirates

Not too sure about Mux, the ability seems quite strong but its quite a few points tied up in a very squishy and weak dialled ship

Any thoughts welcome


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/04/05 14:05:20


Post by: BloodWulf


I have just played my first game ever. Have had a core set and Firespray (Boba Fett is my favorite character) but ever played until S&V came out. My friend offered to teach me to play. He's not much of a miniature gamer or an army builder so I thought I might not get totally owned and was right.

Since I could only use the upgrades from core, Firespray, and most wanted my choices were limited but that's ok when learning
I ran Boba Fett with Greedo, ion cannon, marksmanship, unhinged astromech ( I now realize this was illegal) and stealth device

Hired Thug with autoblaster cannon, Agro mech and VI

2x black sun soldiers

He ran a Decimator and two imperial aces. I know the Decimator had Chirneau but don't remember the aces, one was PS 7 and one was PS 5.

I did well enough but still have much to learn. I had the Decimator to half bull points and one interceptor dead and one almost when Boba K turned off the board, again learning to move.

I liked the Firespray obviously, now I just need to narrow down upgrades. The Y wing was a surprise to both of us. Since I pretty much just opened the box for this game I didnt know the ship stats, it's pretty solid! I think I will run it as a warthog and adding Kavil when I can.

The Zs did just fine for this game. I liked having 4 ships. I kept the three close together and used Boba Fett on the edges.

I have since added a second Y wing and HWK 290 and 2 Scyks.

I would try a Firespray and 2 y wings for sure. Still learning to use what few upgrades I have, if anyone is willing to give me ideas they would be appreciated!


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/04/05 15:10:10


Post by: Azreal13


Ok, in broad strokes, the best upgrades and pilot abilities are those that..

-allow a reroll, the dice will offer you a positive result roughly 50% of the time (slightly more with the red dice) so a reroll ups the chances of a positive result massively.

-increase efficiency of actions. Normally you'll only get one action a turn, so anything that confers extra actions or allows some sort of two for one deal likely has merit.

- adds dice (or removes them from your opponent.) The way the maths works with the dice, every extra dice rolled has a significant impact on the odds of a successful roll (don't ask me how, but I've seen enough people with a better grasp of probability state this to accept it as read) so adding/removing dice can have a significant impact on outcomes.

- allows a manoeuvre after dials have been revealed. Pretty self evident really, being able to correct your flight path in response to your opponent's actions can be hugely beneficial.

Any upgrades that allow any of these are generally always useful, different ones can vary in efficiency, either from card to card or in conjunction with which pilots/ships you're using.

One use secondary weapons are, broadly, considered not worth it, but most cannons and turrets have utility, bombs increasingly so as well.

Otherwise, most things can be useful in the right list in casual games, and the balance is sufficiently good that many inefficiencies in list building can be compensated for by good flying, so feel free to experiment!


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/04/07 15:16:20


Post by: streamdragon


So I had my most successful game yet over the weekend. My list was:

Drea Renthal [Ion Cannon Turret, Unhinged Astromech, BTL-A4 Y-Wing] (28)

Syndicate Thug [Ion Cannon Turret, Unhinged Astromech, BTL-A4 Y-Wing] (24) x 2

N’Dru Suhlak [Cluster Missiles, Lone Wolf] (23)


I was up against Jonus and 2 Onyx Defenders with HLCs.

In the end I lost, a surprise K turn from "1 hull left" Jonus got him beside Drea and blew her up. Still, there were multiple swing moments in the fight (including a complete and utter WHIFF from N'Dru's cluster missiles ) that could have easily swayed the game either way.

Drea is a complete beast, and for only 4 points over an equivalent Syndicate the constant availability of Target Locks is amazing. The Unhinged on a Y-Wing is so wonderful. Being able to zip around the field shedding stress all the while really saved her butt multiple times. I know most people don't run Unhinged on the Thugs, but I couldn't get R4s for both of them anyway. Having all those green options after a K turn (which I see as practically an inevitability) is nice for the Y-Wing.

Anyway, it was a great game. I made a few flubs like landing N'Dru right on an asteroid, which prevented me from Cluster Missiling much earlier than I did, but overall I think my ability to tell where my ships will end up with the templates is getting better.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/04/07 15:28:23


Post by: GrimDork


I'm pretty poor at predicting that too. Sometimes I'll have a few turns of preternatural ability and everywhere I move my guys is smooth and right where they should be, but most turns I'm lucky if I"m not bumping into myself and seeing enemies K-turn behind me at range 1 when I didn't think they'd fit or make the gap etc.

Really gonna have to try unhinged, people keep raving about it. On Kavil, R4 is a necessity, but it seems like you could go either way on the thugs. You don't always get the chance to spend a focus on either of your attacks and if you don't, then you can't trigger the R4 for a target lock.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/04/07 17:03:28


Post by: ajburgoni


You can spend a focus token on an attack even if there are no focus results on the dice. Same as Garven Dreis's ability. Spend the token on the first attack, regardless of the dice result, to allow a TL on the more important turret attack.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/04/07 17:32:42


Post by: GrimDork


Ah. Well there I go showing my novice-ness. Thanks for clearing that up, puts me a bit more back into the R4 where possible camp.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/04/07 18:33:42


Post by: EmpNortonII


ajburgoni wrote:
You can spend a focus token on an attack even if there are no focus results on the dice. Same as Garven Dreis's ability. Spend the token on the first attack, regardless of the dice result, to allow a TL on the more important turret attack.


My reading of the most recent FAQ led me to believe you can spend the TL (if you want) on the same attack as the focus.

Looks like ajburgoni beat me to pointing that out.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/04/08 22:54:24


Post by: BloodWulf


Hey fellow Scum,

I just learned of the fun to be had with a HWK with Palob + title+ opportunist + recon spec + blaster turret.
Do any of you run this rig and if so, what do you include with it in your squadrons?


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/04/09 04:30:58


Post by: Powerguy


 BloodWulf wrote:
Hey fellow Scum,

I just learned of the fun to be had with a HWK with Palob + title+ opportunist + recon spec + blaster turret.
Do any of you run this rig and if so, what do you include with it in your squadrons?

I would suggest the K4 Security Droid over Recon Specialist tbh, you can build up a good supply of tokens early on and Opportunist means you want to do greens to clear your stress every turn anyway (since you can't be stressed already). That means you can do a green, take a TL and a focus and only be losing 1 focus per turn (assuming you spend 1 every turn, sometimes you will roll 4 hits clean and have the TL to spend as well).

@EmpNortonII. You can spend the TL on the same attack as you obtained it. So for example you could roll 3 blanks, spend the focus to modify no results, immediately obtain a TL from the R4 and then spend it to re-roll all 3 dice. The only limitation is that you cannot re-roll a dice that has already been re-rolled, so if you ever ended up with TL + Focus (i.e. you didn't spend the TL last turn) you could roll 3 blanks, re-roll them with the TL and spend the focus to acquire a TL again but could not do anything else from that point.

I have gone back to flying Rebels again for a bit after winning several small events with my Scum build, but the general concensus from everyone playing Scum (including myself) is that Ion Warthog Y-Wings are incredibly strong. They are significantly stronger than the Blue Squadron with Ion for the same cost. You lose barrel roll but gain incredible action effeciency and imo have a better dial (the 4K is far stronger than a 2K when you have Ion, because you can easily get behind people) - they feel at least 2-3 points cheaper than they should be (you almost have a free FCS, and the double shot is hard to quantify). You can't run nothing but Y's because they do still have weaknesses but if you cover that with your other ships they seem to do pretty well. If you aren't running IGs or a Firespray it seems like at least one Y is going to show up in a Scum list.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/04/10 03:51:47


Post by: MrMoustaffa


Question, but what is a "warthog" Y exactly? I see that get thrown around a lot but nobody explains it.

I do however love the look of Y Wings for Scum. They're nasty for what you get. Just trying to figure out how to augment them.

I usually end up coming back to either a horde of Z95's, or the flanker Z95 with maybe the hawk that lets you drop an enemy ship to PS0 or just more Z's.

I really want to love the M3a and Starviper, but I'm having a hard time finding a use for them with my Z95's and y wings that make up the bulk of my scum force.

I feel like to get the most use out of them you'd need to build a list from the ground up with them in mind, whereas my Z95's and Y Wings can get thrown in anywhere and do well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, what's everyone's take on inertial dampeners? I feel like on Z95's they could make for an excellent blocker/sneaky shenanigans type of thing. You could really trip people up, block movement routes, stay behind ships, etc. Although those 4pts could also go to bombs on the Y Wings, I feel that's too much of all my eggs in one basket. Only other choice I see is a couple of dead man switches on two Z's, throw them into the enemy squad to raise chaos, and then bring up the Y's with a Z escort each after the dead man Z's break up the enemy line.

100 points

Pilots
------

Binayre Pirate (13) x 4
Z-95 Headhunter (12), Inertial Dampeners (1)

Syndicate Thug (24) x 2
Y-Wing (18), Ion Cannon Turret (5), Unhinged Astromech (1), BTL-A4 Y-Wing (0)


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/04/10 03:59:27


Post by: Peregrine


 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Question, but what is a "warthog" Y exactly?


Y-wing (usually the PS 2 version) with an ion turret and the A4 title card. The combination of the primary + ion shot is very effective for the point cost, especially against low-agility targets where the ion turret's damage cap used to be the biggest penalty. The warthog also benefits from two very good droid options: the R4 (scum) giving a free target lock or R3-A2 (rebel) allowing you to put two stress per turn on a target.

I feel like to get the most use out of them you'd need to build a list from the ground up with them in mind


To get the most use out of them you need to leave them in their boxes. Neither ship is effective in a competitive context.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/04/10 04:16:53


Post by: MrMoustaffa


 Peregrine wrote:
 MrMoustaffa wrote:
I feel like to get the most use out of them you'd need to build a list from the ground up with them in mind


To get the most use out of them you need to leave them in their boxes. Neither ship is effective in a competitive context.

I wouldn't go that far. I remember when the Lambda came out, people said the same thing, and then a few months later they were all over. Of course, you don't see them a lot anymore, but it was a thing.

I have a feeling that the Starviper will see use in some context, it just will take a while to find its niche. Its not like the Y Wing where the best option is obvious, but I have a feeling we'll see it be like the E wing where people find one way to run it that works well enough. I'm curious to see how 4 of the generics do for example. I highly doubt it would do anything jaw dropping, but you never know.

As for the M3A, only idea I have is a swarm of Z's using some sort of sneaky ability with the PS 8 pilot. The PS5 pilot seems like a better deal point for point at the moment, but that 2 pt title upgrade hurts a lot.

My big thing is Scum is still young. Almost every release people bemoan the new ships and then next thing you know they've found a good build and people change their minds.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/04/10 04:58:41


Post by: Crazy_Carnifex


 MrMoustaffa wrote:
 Peregrine wrote:
 MrMoustaffa wrote:
I feel like to get the most use out of them you'd need to build a list from the ground up with them in mind


To get the most use out of them you need to leave them in their boxes. Neither ship is effective in a competitive context.

I wouldn't go that far. I remember when the Lambda came out, people said the same thing, and then a few months later they were all over. Of course, you don't see them a lot anymore, but it was a thing.

I have a feeling that the Starviper will see use in some context, it just will take a while to find its niche. Its not like the Y Wing where the best option is obvious, but I have a feeling we'll see it be like the E wing where people find one way to run it that works well enough. I'm curious to see how 4 of the generics do for example. I highly doubt it would do anything jaw dropping, but you never know.

As for the M3A, only idea I have is a swarm of Z's using some sort of sneaky ability with the PS 8 pilot. The PS5 pilot seems like a better deal point for point at the moment, but that 2 pt title upgrade hurts a lot.

My big thing is Scum is still young. Almost every release people bemoan the new ships and then next thing you know they've found a good build and people change their minds.


I seem to recall that the shuttles popularity stemmed from "Doomshuttles" excellent damage output and durability to points ratio. As such you could afford to have it do nothing on a couple turns when it got outmaneuvered. The Starviper and Scyk don't have any real tricks like that.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/04/10 05:01:41


Post by: Peregrine


 MrMoustaffa wrote:
I have a feeling that the Starviper will see use in some context, it just will take a while to find its niche. Its not like the Y Wing where the best option is obvious, but I have a feeling we'll see it be like the E wing where people find one way to run it that works well enough.


I think the difference here is that the e-wing (along with the phantom and defender) was the first "supership" to be released. Previously even high-end pilots with reasonable upgrades didn't really go above the 30-35 point level, and now suddenly there are ships that push it up to the 40-50 point level. So it took a while to figure out what worked (Corran + R2-D2, Whisper) and what didn't (the generics and the defender), and what a "supership" needs to be effective (powerful defense and good maneuvering options). But now we can compare the starviper to the existing options in its price range and see that seems to be pretty underwhelming for the cost. It doesn't have much defensive ability (no evade action, poor shield/hull ratio), it has limited ability to get extra actions or action-like abilities (too few greens for PTL and its best tricks are red maneuvers), and it doesn't have a high-end pilot to be a Corran/Whisper/Fel equivalent endgame threat.

And it might actually be able to salvage some kind of supporting role if scum had meaningful support options that Corran and Fel don't, but the best scum ships are the y-wing and z-95. Once you start looking at list options you can't help thinking "if I just switch factions I could replace the starviper with Corran and my list would be even better".

I'm curious to see how 4 of the generics do for example.


Probably very poorly. You have no room for upgrades and PS 1 really limits the effectiveness of their maneuvering options. So you're left with a ship that has a pretty bad jousting value and no other abilities to make up for it.

As for the M3A, only idea I have is a swarm of Z's using some sort of sneaky ability with the PS 8 pilot.


Probably not a good idea. The defensive re-roll is much weaker than Howlrunner's offensive re-roll, so you're essentially making a weaker version of a Howlrunner swarm (the TIE fighter and z-95 are roughly equivalent in performance). Plus scum have the very effective feedback swarm available if you want to take lots of z-95s, and I doubt a weaker Howlrunner effect is going to compete with that.


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/04/10 16:28:44


Post by: DanielBeaver


I tried a 7 Z-95 swarm with feedback array the other day against a Chiarneu+Whisper list, and it worked out okay. Chiraneu melts if you can maneuver your swarm right (he didn't have engine upgrade, and so he couldn't really maneuver away from the swarm), and I was able to use feedback array to bypass Isard's evade token and knock off his last hitpoint. The Phantom was predictably nightmarish for my swarm to deal with, and killed four ships by end of the game (Chiraneu one-shotted another one on turn 2). Z-95's can't really force themselves into range 1 of a phantom to use their feedback arrays. But I do feel like it helped to corral the phantom - he couldn't merely decloak/barrel roll out of my firing arcs, he actually had to make sure he was outside of range 1 of all the Z-95's (which hindered his ability to focus down damaged ships). Spreading them out so that they're ~range 2 from each other turns the swarm into sort of a pseudo mobile proximity mine field. We were using the old Phantom Decloak rules, so I would imagine that it would work better with the FAQ (since the phantom will have to guess where the swarm ships will be after he decloaks, rather than just having perfect information and always being able to choose the ideal decloak maneuver).

I'm curious to see experienced players play this matchup, it could be that a good phantom player can just dance around and ignore the feedback bubble. They want to be at range 2-3 anyhow. Might try this again with hot shot blasters instead (since I never actually used feedback array more than once per ship).


Scum fleets: what's worked for you dakka? @ 2015/04/11 06:04:11


Post by: martin74


I have played a little with the z-95 in scum lists. As I only own three of the ships, not a true swarm. Usually support boba fett. I like the dead man switch with them. Great against other swarms when you close the gap and they get blown up. Not sure against the list you mentioned.

I re-tooled my IG88 list. Running both B&C. With the following upgrades:

Adrenaline rush
Ion cannon
Flachette cannon
Fire control system
Proximity mines
Auto thrusters
Inertial dampers
IG-2000

Did better. The FCS helps quality shot production. Auto thrusters helped out enough too. I like the two cannon upgrades, being able to ion or stress helps. The bomb slot is a wild card. Not sure if proximity mines are what to run there, maybe seismic charges, but not sure.