You are an assassin of the Officio Assassinorum. By a miracle of technology, you have been teleported back in time and through space, and you are in the laboratory the Emperor is using to gestate the Primarchs. You have none of your gear, but all of your forum, RL knowledge of the Horus Heresy and within moments, you will be killed by the automated defenses of the lab. You have time to terminate the life support of exactly ONE Primarch tank before you are blown to atoms. For the might of the Imperium, which do you choose?
from a RP standpoint it'd proably be Horus due to the visceral gut reaction it'll bring. but if I could make the choice knowing what I know, definatly Lorgar.
BrianDavion wrote: from a RP standpoint it'd proably be Horus due to the visceral gut reaction it'll bring. but if I could make the choice knowing what I know, definatly Lorgar.
I fixed the question for you. I hope you voted for Lorgar.
BrianDavion wrote: from a RP standpoint it'd proably be Horus due to the visceral gut reaction it'll bring. but if I could make the choice knowing what I know, definatly Lorgar.
I fixed the question for you. I hope you voted for Lorgar.
heh I did, ther "horus if I knew nothing" was more of the obvious qualifier anyway
Lorgar would be the obvious choice, but I voted Leman Russ just because I think a world where the Space Wolves didn't exist and didn't try to murder the Thousand Sons would be cool.
I voted Horus because I feel that he is the key for Chaos and even without Lorgar, Erebus would probably still have a remote chance at getting his hands on Horus. A remote chance that chaos would have probably done anything to ensure it came to pass.
Erebus was definitely the true origin of the Heresy, Lorgar was merely a tool.
I think either Lorgar or Horus would work. Lorgar, because he wouldn't be able to corrupt others, and Horus, because that would drastically reduce the scale of the Heresy and prevent others from being swayed. I voted for Lorgar though.
And the last option is hilarious. Plus the one vote for Roboute Gilliman
King Pariah wrote: I voted Horus because I feel that he is the key for Chaos and even without Lorgar, Erebus would probably still have a remote chance at getting his hands on Horus. A remote chance that chaos would have probably done anything to ensure it came to pass.
Erebus was definitely the true origin of the Heresy, Lorgar was merely a tool.
Yea, on the second thought Horus was the key since he was the most powerful and a mirror to the Emperor. And the whole thing's named after him. The Chaos gods would have found some way to corrupt him, either through Erebus or some other agent.
EngulfedObject wrote: I think either Lorgar or Horus would work. Lorgar, because he wouldn't be able to corrupt others, and Horus, because that would drastically reduce the scale of the Heresy and prevent others from being swayed. I voted for Lorgar though.
And the last option is hilarious. Plus the one vote for Roboute Gilliman
I actually think there could be a point to that vote. Not likely, since the voter probably just doesn't like Rowboat Girlyman, but I'll probably discuss my ideas tomorrow, after sleep and some beer.
EmpNortonII wrote: I actually think there could be a point to that vote. Not likely, since the voter probably just doesn't like Rowboat Girlyman, but I'll probably discuss my ideas tomorrow, after sleep and some beer.
Well, after the Heresy the Legions wouldn't have split so that made be a strong point in favor of his abortion, depending on your view. But Lorgar would've been shamed by some other Legion so I don't think it makes a difference there.
jreilly89 wrote: Lorgar would be the obvious choice, but I voted Leman Russ just because I think a world where the Space Wolves didn't exist and didn't try to murder the Thousand Sons would be cool.
I voted Horus because the Chaos gods would have found a way to get to him, and with his death the Heresy wouldn't have had such success, or as cool a name.
But if I had time for 2 Rowboat would would have been a grease stain on the floor. Screw his codex
Horus. You can make the argument that absent Lorgar Horus wouldn't have fallen, but absent Horus there's no clear favoured son who would be able to rile up as much support as he did.
What if you aborted Magnus instead? Functional Golden Throne and Imperial Webway!
According to A Thousand Sons Magnus would likely have been needed on the Golden Throne. So without Magnus there won't be a Functional Golden Throne nor an Emperor free to walk around doing stuffs he liked, sooooo....
Logar maybe people are right about horus, but bearing in mind horus was the greatest in the crusade without him the emperor would have been killed by an ork warlord IIRC. Ererus never would have got near horus without Logar. Though I can see the argument for both horus and Robute gulliman
Without Lorgar, Erebus probably wouldn't be a chaplain/marine, just a religious zealot on a planet, who would not accept the Imperial Truth. Hence, he would have been taken diwn in order to obtain the compliance of said planet.
lcmiracle wrote: According to A Thousand Sons Magnus would likely have been needed on the Golden Throne. So without Magnus there won't be a Functional Golden Throne nor an Emperor free to walk around doing stuffs he liked, sooooo....
Anyways I picked Logar just cause.
True but the Human Webway would still be accessible and Malcador would still be around to act as the Emperor's agent (since the Golden Throne didn't need to be occupied at all times before Magnus's psychic breach). Actually, that would mean the Emperor could walk around without leaving anyone on the Throne if he wasn't crippled by Horus.
david choe wrote: I vote Horus, with out Horus I think Emperor will still be alive. Emperor is the key success for Imperium.
Yea, I think so too. I'm beginning to regret voting for Lorgar.
person67 wrote: Logar maybe people are right about horus, but bearing in mind horus was the greatest in the crusade without him the emperor would have been killed by an ork warlord IIRC. Ererus never would have got near horus without Logar. Though I can see the argument for both horus and Robute gulliman
Why can you see an argument for Guilliman?
I voted Lorgar, I think him or Horus could work, but it seems sensible to cut it off at the source. Erebus mightttt have still had some sway but I don't think he'd have been in the position to had it not been for Lorgar.
Wyzilla wrote: Were Horus removed, Chaos would have simply corrupted another Primarch in his place.
Erebus is the actual source of the Horus Heresy.
Yes but would this other Primarch be as powerful as Horus and would the Emperor hesitate when fighting him? The reason the Emperor was crippled was because he couldn't bring himself to strike down his favored son.
Wyzilla wrote: Were Horus removed, Chaos would have simply corrupted another Primarch in his place.
Erebus is the actual source of the Horus Heresy.
Yes but would this other Primarch be as powerful as Horus and would the Emperor hesitate when fighting him? The reason the Emperor was crippled was because he couldn't bring himself to strike down his favored son.
Considering that Horus is a wus compared to his Primarch brethren outside of tactical prowess? Yeah, the HH could have been a lot worse if somebody else fell, like Magnus or Vulkan becoming the champion of Chaos. Also, it should be noted that Horus wasn't even supposed to win. Chaos chose him as a sacrificial lamb to wound the Emperor badly enough that he could not continue to fight, but still hold on to enough strength to hold the Imperium together in a somewhat stable state. The Chaos Gods never wanted to fully destroy the Imperium, otherwise there would be no eternal war to amuse themselves with.
person67 wrote: Logar maybe people are right about horus, but bearing in mind horus was the greatest in the crusade without him the emperor would have been killed by an ork warlord IIRC. Ererus never would have got near horus without Logar. Though I can see the argument for both horus and Robute gulliman
Why can you see an argument for Guilliman?
I voted Lorgar, I think him or Horus could work, but it seems sensible to cut it off at the source. Erebus mightttt have still had some sway but I don't think he'd have been in the position to had it not been for Lorgar.
mostly codex astartes hate. people tend to forget Gulliman pretty much single handedly kept the IoM together during the post heresy years.
person67 wrote: Logar maybe people are right about horus, but bearing in mind horus was the greatest in the crusade without him the emperor would have been killed by an ork warlord IIRC. Ererus never would have got near horus without Logar. Though I can see the argument for both horus and Robute gulliman
Why can you see an argument for Guilliman?
I voted Lorgar, I think him or Horus could work, but it seems sensible to cut it off at the source. Erebus mightttt have still had some sway but I don't think he'd have been in the position to had it not been for Lorgar.
mostly codex astartes hate. people tend to forget Gulliman pretty much single handedly kept the IoM together during the post heresy years.
Yeah I thought it might be the standard UM hate...
Wyzilla wrote: Considering that Horus is a wus compared to his Primarch brethren outside of tactical prowess? Yeah, the HH could have been a lot worse if somebody else fell, like Magnus or Vulkan becoming the champion of Chaos. Also, it should be noted that Horus wasn't even supposed to win. Chaos chose him as a sacrificial lamb to wound the Emperor badly enough that he could not continue to fight, but still hold on to enough strength to hold the Imperium together in a somewhat stable state. The Chaos Gods never wanted to fully destroy the Imperium, otherwise there would be no eternal war to amuse themselves with.
I thought fluff repeatedly states how Horus was the greatest of them all, not just through his tactical prowess? And Vulkan as a champion of Chaos is a strange image, haha. I don't really think he'd be able to do nearly as much though. And Magnus was too much under Tzeentch's influence to be a champion of Chaos Undivided.
Wyzilla wrote: Considering that Horus is a wus compared to his Primarch brethren outside of tactical prowess? Yeah, the HH could have been a lot worse if somebody else fell, like Magnus or Vulkan becoming the champion of Chaos. Also, it should be noted that Horus wasn't even supposed to win. Chaos chose him as a sacrificial lamb to wound the Emperor badly enough that he could not continue to fight, but still hold on to enough strength to hold the Imperium together in a somewhat stable state. The Chaos Gods never wanted to fully destroy the Imperium, otherwise there would be no eternal war to amuse themselves with.
I thought fluff repeatedly states how Horus was the greatest of them all, not just through his tactical prowess? And Vulkan as a champion of Chaos is a strange image, haha. I don't really think he'd be able to do nearly as much though. And Magnus was too much under Tzeentch's influence to be a champion of Chaos Undivided.
Horus was a jack of all trades, but ace of none. His only real advantage over his brothers was his charisma- otherwise Sanguinius, Magnus, the Lion, Konrad Curze, and Angron were his physical superiors until his empowerment. And had say, Sangiunius been empowered by Chaos instead of Horus, he would most certainly be stronger then Chaos Horus.
Wyzilla wrote: Horus was a jack of all trades, but ace of none. His only real advantage over his brothers was his charisma- otherwise Sanguinius, Magnus, the Lion, Konrad Curze, and Angron were his physical superiors until his empowerment. And had say, Sangiunius been empowered by Chaos instead of Horus, he would most certainly be stronger then Chaos Horus.
Yes, but is there any fluff actually indicating he was inferior to them physically?
Wyzilla wrote: Horus was a jack of all trades, but ace of none. His only real advantage over his brothers was his charisma- otherwise Sanguinius, Magnus, the Lion, Konrad Curze, and Angron were his physical superiors until his empowerment. And had say, Sangiunius been empowered by Chaos instead of Horus, he would most certainly be stronger then Chaos Horus.
Yes, but is there any fluff actually indicating he was inferior to them physically?
There's nothing credible that points to him being superior. Horus gets ganked by a Nurgle Chosen, Corax meanwhile walks off lascannon shots and Sanguinius utterly demolished Greater Daemons as a hobby.
Wyzilla wrote: There's nothing credible that points to him being superior. Horus gets ganked by a Nurgle Chosen, Corax meanwhile walks off lascannon shots and Sanguinius utterly demolished Greater Daemons as a hobby.
Yea but that Nurgle dude had an anathame. The way it was written seems to indicate that it would have had the same effect on any other Primarch. And the differences in the Primarch's strengths and survivability depends on the authors writing them, no? I thought there were already plenty of discussions on this subject, as when Guilliman was nearly offed by random Alpha Legion marines.
I still can't think of any fluff indicating that the Primarchs you listed were superior to him physically. Can you give me some examples?
person67 wrote: Logar maybe people are right about horus, but bearing in mind horus was the greatest in the crusade without him the emperor would have been killed by an ork warlord IIRC. Ererus never would have got near horus without Logar. Though I can see the argument for both horus and Robute gulliman
Why can you see an argument for Guilliman?
I voted Lorgar, I think him or Horus could work, but it seems sensible to cut it off at the source. Erebus mightttt have still had some sway but I don't think he'd have been in the position to had it not been for Lorgar.
mostly codex astartes hate. people tend to forget Gulliman pretty much single handedly kept the IoM together during the post heresy years.
Yeah I thought it might be the standard UM hate...
Eh it's fair eneugh some people think, especially with regards to setting belivability, the worst thing to happen to space marines where being divided into teeny tiny chapters.
Honestly I'm really hoping that the HH series doesn't end with the seige of Terra. the "Codex debate" I think could potentially be very intreasting reading. particularly if it turns out there was a bit more nuance into the whole thing then expected. (Like perhaps the other high lords making it very clear that 'there could be no more Legions Astartes" and the codex numbers where actually gulliman's way of preserving Space Marines as best he could )
Wyzilla wrote: There's nothing credible that points to him being superior. Horus gets ganked by a Nurgle Chosen, Corax meanwhile walks off lascannon shots and Sanguinius utterly demolished Greater Daemons as a hobby.
Yea but that Nurgle dude had an anathame. The way it was written seems to indicate that it would have had the same effect on any other Primarch. And the differences in the Primarch's strengths and survivability depends on the authors writing them, no? I thought there were already plenty of discussions on this subject, as when Guilliman was nearly offed by random Alpha Legion marines.
I still can't think of any fluff indicating that the Primarchs you listed were superior to him physically. Can you give me some examples?
Only that most of his brothers think that he is the best man for the Job of being Warmaster and certain brothers commenting on his abilities, like Corax in Ravens Flight contemplating that only Horus or Sanguinius could beat Angron in a fight.
I vote for Horus as no one Primarch could have united the Traitors like he did. If Horus hadn't had fallen what other choice really would the Dark Gods have had? Magnus, Mortarion wouldn't have sided with him. Curze, I don't think anyone bar Horus really like him. Fulgrim the peacock? Horus was the chain that bound the rebellion together. Without him it would've been a disaster.
Pilau Rice wrote: Only that most of his brothers think that he is the best man for the Job of being Warmaster and certain brothers commenting on his abilities, like Corax in Ravens Flight contemplating that only Horus or Sanguinius could beat Angron in a fight.
Yea, that's what I thought about his abilities. Is there really any fluff to indicate the contrary? The Horus Heresy wouldn't really make sense if he wasn't the greatest of them all.
Considering that Horus is a wus compared to his Primarch brethren outside of tactical prowess? Yeah, the HH could have been a lot worse if somebody else fell, like Magnus or Vulkan becoming the champion of Chaos.
Nonsense. Personal ability is irrelevant when you have billions of troops fighting a galaxy-sized war. It's made explicitly clear that the reason Horus was chosen by Chaos was entirely due to the influence he held over the other legions and his talent for grand-strategy. No other Primarch was as universally loved as Horus, nor were any as charismatic. That's why the Emperor made him Warmaster, and that's why Chaos focused their efforts on him. People were willing to follow him, and he had the know-how to use them.
If Magnus or Vulkan had turned traitor, they would have done so alone. Very few (if any) of the other legions would have followed them into treachery, and neither of them had as much renown as a general as Horus.
- - - - -
RE the topic: Lorgar is the best choice, I think. People are asserting that Horus was the lynch-pin of the Heresy, which is true, but on the other hand erasing him at birth would also mean erasing all of the good he had done for mankind as well. Don't forget that prior to the Heresy, Horus was competing with Guilliman for most accomplished Primarch out of all the legions, with one of the highest records of compliances. He was also personally responsible for tutoring several of the other Primarchs, and had a variety of exploits such as saving the Emperor's life, etc.
By comparison, Lorgar was the catalyst for the Heresy, yet if he had never existed not much of value would have been lost. He was inefficient, had little accolades to his name, was despised by most of the other primarchs, and his record for compliances was so low that the Emperor had to step in and smack him around. Erasing Lorgar would have a lot of gains for the Imperium with little loss.
Remove horus : Sanguinius would probably been warmaster, He would fall and things would go bad for the imperium. Also Emps would have been choked to death by an ork..
Remove Lorgar: Word bearers would be working with the other primarchs putting Erabus in a perfect position to corrupt themm.
Remove Fullgrim: Another would have gotten send to Laer for the same result. The Children where also working under Horus before so would have fallen regardless.
Horus would probaly gain a lot of control of anny legion without a primach, especialy after becoming warmaster making themm fall to chaos regardless of wo you would pick.
I'd yust kill Angron, Spare him from his horible life would be a kindness and it would be intersting to see the warhounds without the nails.
Amoras wrote: Remove horus : Sanguinius would probably been warmaster, He would fall and things would go bad for the imperium. Also Emps would have been choked to death by an ork..
Remove Lorgar: Word bearers would be working with the other primarchs putting Erabus in a perfect position to corrupt themm.
Remove Fullgrim: Another would have gotten send to Laer for the same result. The Children where also working under Horus before so would have fallen regardless.
Horus would probaly gain a lot of control of anny legion without a primach, especialy after becoming warmaster making themm fall to chaos regardless of wo you would pick.
I'd yust kill Angron, Spare him from his horible life would be a kindness and it would be intersting to see the warhounds without the nails.
If you killed Lorgar, I really don't think Erebus would've been in the position to corrupt anyone else. It was pretty much literally only Lorgar who liked Erebus. Had Lorgar not had him in such a high position I doubt he'd have had any kind of sway at all.
Amoras wrote: Remove horus : Sanguinius would probably been warmaster, He would fall and things would go bad for the imperium. Also Emps would have been choked to death by an ork..
Remove Lorgar: Word bearers would be working with the other primarchs putting Erabus in a perfect position to corrupt themm.
Remove Fullgrim: Another would have gotten send to Laer for the same result. The Children where also working under Horus before so would have fallen regardless.
Horus would probaly gain a lot of control of anny legion without a primach, especialy after becoming warmaster making themm fall to chaos regardless of wo you would pick.
I'd yust kill Angron, Spare him from his horible life would be a kindness and it would be intersting to see the warhounds without the nails.
If Lorgar never had Emporer worship, they never would have been shamed by UM + Emp, so would have never searched for a new god to worship ala Erebus wouldn't have found Chaos, as he never would have searched for it.
RE the topic: Lorgar is the best choice, I think. People are asserting that Horus was the lynch-pin of the Heresy, which is true, but on the other hand erasing him at birth would also mean erasing all of the good he had done for mankind as well. Don't forget that prior to the Heresy, Horus was competing with Guilliman for most accomplished Primarch out of all the legions, with one of the highest records of compliances. He was also personally responsible for tutoring several of the other Primarchs, and had a variety of exploits such as saving the Emperor's life, etc.
By comparison, Lorgar was the catalyst for the Heresy, yet if he had never existed not much of value would have been lost. He was inefficient, had little accolades to his name, was despised by most of the other primarchs, and his record for compliances was so low that the Emperor had to step in and smack him around. Erasing Lorgar would have a lot of gains for the Imperium with little loss.
I still believe Horus would be the better choice. True Lorgar started it all, but if Horus fell through the machinations of Lorgar, then whose to say that he wouldn't have fallen through someone else, perhaps later on when the Crusade was nearly complete, causing more destruction? The Emperor would still have gone back to Terra to work on the Webway Project. Horus would have still felt the same way when the Emperor left him. Certain Primarchs were already doomed to fall to Chaos. Perhaps Magnus would have been able to convince Horus the same way but through subtler means.
But I do agree with your point BlaxicanX, very well made. If Lorgar wouldn't have existed, neither would his Legion, therefore Kor Phaeron and Erebus, the true catalysts of the Heresy, would have remained mere people and left insignificant in every way, never mentioned, never to become the architects.
Amoras wrote: Remove horus : Sanguinius would probably been warmaster, He would fall and things would go bad for the imperium. Also Emps would have been choked to death by an ork..
Remove Lorgar: Word bearers would be working with the other primarchs putting Erabus in a perfect position to corrupt themm.
Remove Fullgrim: Another would have gotten send to Laer for the same result. The Children where also working under Horus before so would have fallen regardless.
Horus would probaly gain a lot of control of anny legion without a primach, especialy after becoming warmaster making themm fall to chaos regardless of wo you would pick.
I'd yust kill Angron, Spare him from his horible life would be a kindness and it would be intersting to see the warhounds without the nails.
If Lorgar never had Emporer worship, they never would have been shamed by UM + Emp, so would have never searched for a new god to worship ala Erebus wouldn't have found Chaos, as he never would have searched for it.
Erebus and Kor Phaeron followed Chaos from before Lorgar I believe. But They wouldn't have had any sway if not for Lorgar.
Amoras wrote: Remove horus : Sanguinius would probably been warmaster, He would fall and things would go bad for the imperium. Also Emps would have been choked to death by an ork..
Remove Lorgar: Word bearers would be working with the other primarchs putting Erabus in a perfect position to corrupt themm.
Remove Fullgrim: Another would have gotten send to Laer for the same result. The Children where also working under Horus before so would have fallen regardless.
Horus would probaly gain a lot of control of anny legion without a primach, especialy after becoming warmaster making themm fall to chaos regardless of wo you would pick.
I'd yust kill Angron, Spare him from his horible life would be a kindness and it would be intersting to see the warhounds without the nails.
If Lorgar never had Emporer worship, they never would have been shamed by UM + Emp, so would have never searched for a new god to worship ala Erebus wouldn't have found Chaos, as he never would have searched for it.
Erebus and Kor Phaeron followed Chaos from before Lorgar I believe.
I think they followed Chaos before Lorgar did yes, but only after the Emporer's shaming. Correct me if I have this fluff wrong.
If Lorgar never had Emporer worship, they never would have been shamed by UM + Emp, so would have never searched for a new god to worship ala Erebus wouldn't have found Chaos, as he never would have searched for it.
Erebus and Kor Phaeron followed Chaos from before Lorgar I believe. But They wouldn't have had any sway if not for Lorgar.
Amoras wrote: Remove horus : Sanguinius would probably been warmaster, He would fall and things would go bad for the imperium. Also Emps would have been choked to death by an ork..
Remove Lorgar: Word bearers would be working with the other primarchs putting Erabus in a perfect position to corrupt themm.
Remove Fullgrim: Another would have gotten send to Laer for the same result. The Children where also working under Horus before so would have fallen regardless.
Horus would probaly gain a lot of control of anny legion without a primach, especialy after becoming warmaster making themm fall to chaos regardless of wo you would pick.
I'd yust kill Angron, Spare him from his horible life would be a kindness and it would be intersting to see the warhounds without the nails.
If Lorgar never had Emporer worship, they never would have been shamed by UM + Emp, so would have never searched for a new god to worship ala Erebus wouldn't have found Chaos, as he never would have searched for it.
Erebus and Kor Phaeron followed Chaos from before Lorgar I believe.
I think they followed Chaos before Lorgar did yes, but only after the Emporer's shaming. Correct me if I have this fluff wrong.
No I mean, from before Lorgar landed on Colchis. Or at least before the Emperor got to Colchis. All the worlds that the Word Bearers brought into compliance, Erebus and Kor Phaeron would leave little cults of Chaos smouldering away, ready for when they managed to turn Lorgar.
What we need to remember with this kind of hypothetical question is the nature of causality and the flow of time and events. A single event does not fix an entire timeline, and in modern viewpoints of physics would quite likely spawn a secondary timeline alongside the main one, with the key forking point being when you appear in the past.
So, it could entirely transpire that regardless of which Primarch you killed in the past, the timeline you have created could still follow a similar or entirely worse path through causality.
Example One: Slay Lorgar!
Many of you have voted to kill Lorgar, as without him then Horus could not be tempted over to Chaos. Causally this might not be correct.
If Lorgar had been slain at youth, then he never would have descended upon Colchis. He never would have founded a belief in a single God on that planet and lead to its Holy Wars, and it is quite likely the outcome may have formed differently. Erebus and Kor Phaeron may have still existed in this world as regular humans alongside other would-have-been Word Bearers, and these would maintain their ancient beliefs in a Godly Pantheon (the Chaos Gods for those unaware)
It’s quite likely the Crusade would still have happened upon Colchis, and the population would be pacified and integrated into the Imperium. The youth of Colchis would likely be swallowed into a different Legion, taking some dark beliefs with them. It’s entirely possible for Erebus or some other dark-hearted Astartes to be created and find their way to the ears of their Brothers or Primarch. By removing the perceived evil of the Word Bearers, you potentially create a new monster from another Legion.
The Imperial Heralds would also still be in existence, and would never find their Primarch. They would remain in all aspects a loyal and normal functioning legion. They could potentially fill a niche they did not in the normal timeline, which could lead to conflict with existing legions. I could easily imagine the Heralds attempting to make up for their lack of a Primarch with zeal and dedication to the cause, which in turn would earn the ire of certain brother legions.
Another likely scenario would be that without a Primarch, the Emperor may see fit to merge the Heralds with another Legion, possibly the Ultramarines. Any faults with the original Heralds in terms of spirit or mind would be integrated into another Legion, spreading like a tumour amongst its new hosts.
Plus, we are assuming that the Chaos Gods would simply abandon their designs if Lorgar was gone. Remember, all the Primarchs were flawed in various aspects, and the Gods are infinitely devious. A potential Lorgar could be found in any one of his remaining brothers. Integral relationships that Lorgar developed with his Father and Brothers would never happen, and you’d have an entirely different dynamic between them.
Example Two: Slay Horus!
Another popular choice appears to be the slaying of the Arch-Traitor himself, Horus Lupercal. Again, causality is an unkind mistress and several things could occur upon this new timeline.
Horus’ Legion would remain the Luna Wolves, and Horus would never be crowned Warmaster. At the Triumph of Ullanor (if it even happened on this timeline, Horus was a massively integral part of the campaign) the Emperor would likely have chosen another son to be Warmaster. Horus himself always stated that Sanguinius should have been Warmaster and the Emperor could likely name the Lord of the Blood Angels as the Warmaster.
So the pressures and stress of the title would belong to another brother, opening the path again for Chaos to seep through. Although brilliant, Sanguinius may have lacked in Horus’ abilities and the unified Crusade may have suffered, bringing a whole new schism to bear. Plus, having the pre-eminent Legion of the Crusade as the Blood Angels opens a whole new can of worms in terms of The Flaw and their dark character. A new Arc-Traitor could believable be found in Sanguinius, or any one of his Brothers.
It’s an interesting question, and everything here is just speculation as time-travel and causality are maddeningly complex to have one simple “I change this and this happens”
The Imperial Heralds would also still be in existence, and would never find their Primarch. They would remain in all aspects a loyal and normal functioning legion. They could potentially fill a niche they did not in the normal timeline, which could lead to conflict with existing legions. I could easily imagine the Heralds attempting to make up for their lack of a Primarch with zeal and dedication to the cause, which in turn would earn the ire of certain brother legions.
I don't know, perhaps without a Primarch to lead them the Emperor does not create the Imperial Heralds at all. Perhaps, depending on when the Primarch is slain, the Emperor has not gathered enough information to create the Legion. Or perhaps slaying the Primarch doesn't matter as the Emperor has enough information to just grow it anew.
What we need to remember with this kind of hypothetical question is the nature of causality and the flow of time and events. A single event does not fix an entire timeline, and in modern viewpoints of physics would quite likely spawn a secondary timeline alongside the main one, with the key forking point being when you appear in the past.
So, it could entirely transpire that regardless of which Primarch you killed in the past, the timeline you have created could still follow a similar or entirely worse path through causality.
Example One: Slay Lorgar!
Many of you have voted to kill Lorgar, as without him then Horus could not be tempted over to Chaos. Causally this might not be correct.
If Lorgar had been slain at youth, then he never would have descended upon Colchis. He never would have founded a belief in a single God on that planet and lead to its Holy Wars, and it is quite likely the outcome may have formed differently. Erebus and Kor Phaeron may have still existed in this world as regular humans alongside other would-have-been Word Bearers, and these would maintain their ancient beliefs in a Godly Pantheon (the Chaos Gods for those unaware)
It’s quite likely the Crusade would still have happened upon Colchis, and the population would be pacified and integrated into the Imperium. The youth of Colchis would likely be swallowed into a different Legion, taking some dark beliefs with them. It’s entirely possible for Erebus or some other dark-hearted Astartes to be created and find their way to the ears of their Brothers or Primarch. By removing the perceived evil of the Word Bearers, you potentially create a new monster from another Legion.
The Imperial Heralds would also still be in existence, and would never find their Primarch. They would remain in all aspects a loyal and normal functioning legion. They could potentially fill a niche they did not in the normal timeline, which could lead to conflict with existing legions. I could easily imagine the Heralds attempting to make up for their lack of a Primarch with zeal and dedication to the cause, which in turn would earn the ire of certain brother legions.
Another likely scenario would be that without a Primarch, the Emperor may see fit to merge the Heralds with another Legion, possibly the Ultramarines. Any faults with the original Heralds in terms of spirit or mind would be integrated into another Legion, spreading like a tumour amongst its new hosts.
Plus, we are assuming that the Chaos Gods would simply abandon their designs if Lorgar was gone. Remember, all the Primarchs were flawed in various aspects, and the Gods are infinitely devious. A potential Lorgar could be found in any one of his remaining brothers. Integral relationships that Lorgar developed with his Father and Brothers would never happen, and you’d have an entirely different dynamic between them.
Example Two: Slay Horus!
Another popular choice appears to be the slaying of the Arch-Traitor himself, Horus Lupercal. Again, causality is an unkind mistress and several things could occur upon this new timeline.
Horus’ Legion would remain the Luna Wolves, and Horus would never be crowned Warmaster. At the Triumph of Ullanor (if it even happened on this timeline, Horus was a massively integral part of the campaign) the Emperor would likely have chosen another son to be Warmaster. Horus himself always stated that Sanguinius should have been Warmaster and the Emperor could likely name the Lord of the Blood Angels as the Warmaster.
So the pressures and stress of the title would belong to another brother, opening the path again for Chaos to seep through. Although brilliant, Sanguinius may have lacked in Horus’ abilities and the unified Crusade may have suffered, bringing a whole new schism to bear. Plus, having the pre-eminent Legion of the Crusade as the Blood Angels opens a whole new can of worms in terms of The Flaw and their dark character. A new Arc-Traitor could believable be found in Sanguinius, or any one of his Brothers.
It’s an interesting question, and everything here is just speculation as time-travel and causality are maddeningly complex to have one simple “I change this and this happens”
Cool thread though!
Well I guess the Imperium was grimdark enough for the Emperor to "abort" a teenage primarch "fetus" (2-11, amirite?), but assuming the topic asks what if a Primarch is aborted in its infancy, it's highly unlikely their gene-material would have been used for a legion. This simply means whoever got aborted will not have a Legion corresponding to his number. So aborting Lorgar means no Word Bearers, and Erebus would never have gotten out of that piece of over-zealous rock, lodges would be far rarer amongst the Legions and far less uniform; had Horus been aborted, there would have never been a Lunar Wolves, and all the assorted drama associated with it would have been gone.
On the odd chance that the Primarchs are "aborted" after they were scattered, then no one else would have known of the aborted primarch, and all things associated to his name would have gone unrecorded. Say, if Lorgar was killed by the Colchisians, when the Emperor's exploration fleets arrived above Colchis, the tainted rock would still have been in its old polytheistic ways and would have likely gotten into open conflict with the Imperium, and consequentially destroyed, Erebus would have never make a Legionnaire and Horus would not have been turned to Chaos by him.
I'd kill Leman Russ for the following reasons:
1. I don't like the space wolves.
2. Without Leman Russ, the space wolves wouldn't have 'disciplined' the Thousand Sons during the heresy and they likely would have remained loyal, instead of slugging it out and crippling each other to the point they couldn't meaningfully contribute in anyway to the fight, they would have brought 2, full strength legions to the emperor's side, causing quite the shift in the balance of power against Horus and the traitors. They would still have weakened the Imperium that's for certain, but it would have been nowhere near as catastrophic as it could have been imo.
Huh I see that Dark Lord Seanron is back, when did this happen?
Krellnus wrote: I'd kill Leman Russ for the following reasons:
1. I don't like the space wolves.
2. Without Leman Russ, the space wolves wouldn't have 'disciplined' the Thousand Sons during the heresy and they likely would have remained loyal, instead of slugging it out and crippling each other to the point they couldn't meaningfully contribute in anyway to the fight, they would have brought 2, full strength legions to the emperor's side, causing quite the shift in the balance of power against Horus and the traitors. They would still have weakened the Imperium that's for certain, but it would have been nowhere near as catastrophic as it could have been imo.
But then how would not having the 'Executioner' affect the Imperium. If what is implied in the series is true, and Russ isn't there to take out two Lost Primarchs and their Legions, what could happen to the Imperium? Perhaps a Heresy is carried out sooner by one of the missing ones and the fledgling Imperium is torn asunder.
Magnus is already a thrall of Tzeentch at this time, he just hasn't accepted it.
I chose none, I would just sit around in their until the @sshole thousand sons came along to throw the babies into the warp and kill them instead. That way each of the primarchs would have grown up around their father the emperor and would never have been exposed to the follies of their parent worlds that changed them, for the most part, in bad ways.
So how about an imperium where all 20 sons did what the emperor intended for them to do? how crazy would that have been? Chaos loses forever.
Ghazkuul wrote: I chose none, I would just sit around in their until the @sshole thousand sons came along to throw the babies into the warp and kill them instead. That way each of the primarchs would have grown up around their father the emperor and would never have been exposed to the follies of their parent worlds that changed them, for the most part, in bad ways.
So how about an imperium where all 20 sons did what the emperor intended for them to do? how crazy would that have been? Chaos loses forever.
I'm confused, what do the Thousand Sons have to do with any of this?
Krellnus wrote: I'd kill Leman Russ for the following reasons:
1. I don't like the space wolves.
2. Without Leman Russ, the space wolves wouldn't have 'disciplined' the Thousand Sons during the heresy and they likely would have remained loyal, instead of slugging it out and crippling each other to the point they couldn't meaningfully contribute in anyway to the fight, they would have brought 2, full strength legions to the emperor's side, causing quite the shift in the balance of power against Horus and the traitors. They would still have weakened the Imperium that's for certain, but it would have been nowhere near as catastrophic as it could have been imo.
But then how would not having the 'Executioner' affect the Imperium. If what is implied in the series is true, and Russ isn't there to take out two Lost Primarchs and their Legions, what could happen to the Imperium? Perhaps a Heresy is carried out sooner by one of the missing ones and the fledgling Imperium is torn asunder.
Magnus is already a thrall of Tzeentch at this time, he just hasn't accepted it.
RAMIFICATIONS!!!!!!
But what specifically made Russ so good at being an executioner of astartes? Why would the Lion, Guilliman or Horus, all far more accomplished generals have trouble with the other legions if Russ apparently didn't?
Krellnus wrote: I'd kill Leman Russ for the following reasons:
1. I don't like the space wolves.
2. Without Leman Russ, the space wolves wouldn't have 'disciplined' the Thousand Sons during the heresy and they likely would have remained loyal, instead of slugging it out and crippling each other to the point they couldn't meaningfully contribute in anyway to the fight, they would have brought 2, full strength legions to the emperor's side, causing quite the shift in the balance of power against Horus and the traitors. They would still have weakened the Imperium that's for certain, but it would have been nowhere near as catastrophic as it could have been imo.
But then how would not having the 'Executioner' affect the Imperium. If what is implied in the series is true, and Russ isn't there to take out two Lost Primarchs and their Legions, what could happen to the Imperium? Perhaps a Heresy is carried out sooner by one of the missing ones and the fledgling Imperium is torn asunder.
Magnus is already a thrall of Tzeentch at this time, he just hasn't accepted it.
RAMIFICATIONS!!!!!!
But what specifically made Russ so good at being an executioner of astartes? Why would the Lion, Guilliman or Horus, all far more accomplished generals have trouble with the other legions if Russ apparently didn't?
Depends on whether you subscribe to the whole 'the wolves are the executioners' thing (I'm of the opinion that if they were, that's just how they saw themselves/it was self appointed) but I could see it being as simple as the Wolves will do absolutely anything the Emperor ordered, and wouldn't hesitate to destroy another legion If they were ordered to.
But what specifically made Russ so good at being an executioner of astartes? Why would the Lion, Guilliman or Horus, all far more accomplished generals have trouble with the other legions if Russ apparently didn't?
Nothing to my knowledge but its all what ifs isn't it. The Emperor must have had some hand in the matter and made the choice to select Russ for the task.
Perhaps it was his loyalty to the Emperor above all else. Lion is a bit of a shifty character in some regards and very secretive, perhaps the Emperor couldn't trust him to carry out the task, Guilliman doesn't seem the type, Horus is there to unite the Primarchs and not to kill them.
But what specifically made Russ so good at being an executioner of astartes? Why would the Lion, Guilliman or Horus, all far more accomplished generals have trouble with the other legions if Russ apparently didn't?
Nothing to my knowledge but its all what ifs isn't it. The Emperor must have had some hand in the matter and made the choice to select Russ for the task.
Perhaps it was his loyalty to the Emperor above all else. Lion is a bit of a shifty character in some regards and very secretive, perhaps the Emperor couldn't trust him to carry out the task, Guilliman doesn't seem the type, Horus is there to unite the Primarchs and not to kill them.
But I agree with Krellnus in the sense that if a legion needed to be culled and the Space Wolves weren't available, I'm sure there were other legions capable of doing it.
Kerrathyr wrote: Without Lorgar, Erebus probably wouldn't be a chaplain/marine, just a religious zealot on a planet, who would not accept the Imperial Truth. Hence, he would have been taken diwn in order to obtain the compliance of said planet.
More important than that - without Lorgar, there would have been no 'church of the emperor' on Colchis - which means that at the point the Emperor arrived, it would have been ruled by Kor Phaeron and the Old Faith, i.e. open worship of the Chaos Gods.
I'd imagine that would have been a pretty terminal experience for the entire planet.
Of course, the counter-argument is that if there wasn't a primarch there, the Emperor wouldn't have come in person, so you might just have had an 'ordinary' expeditionary fleet, who wouldn't know what chaos was....allowing Kor Phaeron et al to still infiltrate the imperium....but with much more difficulty getting into the legions.
If you accept the heresy is going to happen, getting rid of Magnus the Red is probably a tactically superior move for three reasons;
a) Without Magnus' message the Golden Throne isn't damaged, so it can be deactivated and the Emperor - and the Custodes - are not locked in the basement for the duration of the campaign.
b) Without Magnus, the Thousand Sons Legion is destroyed in the early crusade - so Nikea never happens. therefore:
b1) There is no need to prosecute Prospero and hence the Space Wolves are available earlier in the Heresy
b2) The Legion Librarius remain intact, which makes some legions likely to come out of Horus' opening gambits in a better state.
ImAGeek wrote:
But what specifically made Russ so good at being an executioner of astartes? Why would the Lion, Guilliman or Horus, all far more accomplished generals have trouble with the other legions if Russ apparently didn't?
Depends on whether you subscribe to the whole 'the wolves are the executioners' thing (I'm of the opinion that if they were, that's just how they saw themselves/it was self appointed) but I could see it being as simple as the Wolves will do absolutely anything the Emperor ordered, and wouldn't hesitate to destroy another legion If they were ordered to.
I also happen to be of that opinion myself, although I don't get their undying loyalty thing, they're space wolves, not space hounds.
Pilau Rice wrote:
Nothing to my knowledge but its all what ifs isn't it. The Emperor must have had some hand in the matter and made the choice to select Russ for the task.
Perhaps it was his loyalty to the Emperor above all else. Lion is a bit of a shifty character in some regards and very secretive, perhaps the Emperor couldn't trust him to carry out the task, Guilliman doesn't seem the type, Horus is there to unite the Primarchs and not to kill them.
If I had to guess, maybe the emperor saw the wolves as an opportunity that presented itself to keep all the other legions/primarchs in check. By having the (at least seemingly) super duper loyal wolves destroy another legion/or legions, he sends a message to all the others that he won't feth around and will get right down to business, whilst simultaneously ensuring that the wolves disgusted every other legion enough that if they turned out to be not so loyal, the other legions would be more than eager to step up to the plate, regardless of any favour it curried with the emperor.
But I agree with Krellnus in the sense that if a legion needed to be culled and the Space Wolves weren't available, I'm sure there were other legions capable of doing it.
HOW DARE YOU AGREE WITH SOMEONE ELSE!
Of course, Krellnus is right, i'm right, it's all hypothetical so we're all right. I was just putting forward a reason why cutting Russ out of the picture might not have been a good idea. Another Primarch might have taken up the mantle.
Krellnus wrote: I'd kill Leman Russ for the following reasons:
1. I don't like the space wolves.
2. Without Leman Russ, the space wolves wouldn't have 'disciplined' the Thousand Sons during the heresy and they likely would have remained loyal, instead of slugging it out and crippling each other to the point they couldn't meaningfully contribute in anyway to the fight, they would have brought 2, full strength legions to the emperor's side, causing quite the shift in the balance of power against Horus and the traitors. They would still have weakened the Imperium that's for certain, but it would have been nowhere near as catastrophic as it could have been imo.
But then how would not having the 'Executioner' affect the Imperium. If what is implied in the series is true, and Russ isn't there to take out two Lost Primarchs and their Legions, what could happen to the Imperium? Perhaps a Heresy is carried out sooner by one of the missing ones and the fledgling Imperium is torn asunder.
Magnus is already a thrall of Tzeentch at this time, he just hasn't accepted it.
In terms of the 'they're Space Wolves, not Space Hounds' thing, that's actually addressed a bit in Betrayer, where Angron says that the Space Wolves aren't like wolves at all, more like lapdogs.
Krellnus wrote: I'd kill Leman Russ for the following reasons:
1. I don't like the space wolves.
2. Without Leman Russ, the space wolves wouldn't have 'disciplined' the Thousand Sons during the heresy and they likely would have remained loyal, instead of slugging it out and crippling each other to the point they couldn't meaningfully contribute in anyway to the fight, they would have brought 2, full strength legions to the emperor's side, causing quite the shift in the balance of power against Horus and the traitors. They would still have weakened the Imperium that's for certain, but it would have been nowhere near as catastrophic as it could have been imo.
But then how would not having the 'Executioner' affect the Imperium. If what is implied in the series is true, and Russ isn't there to take out two Lost Primarchs and their Legions, what could happen to the Imperium? Perhaps a Heresy is carried out sooner by one of the missing ones and the fledgling Imperium is torn asunder.
Magnus is already a thrall of Tzeentch at this time, he just hasn't accepted it.
ImAGeek wrote: In terms of the 'they're Space Wolves, not Space Hounds' thing, that's actually addressed a bit in Betrayer, where Angron says that the Space Wolves aren't like wolves at all, more like lapdogs.
Thanks, I haven't really had a chance to read many of the Heresy novels so I didn't know if it was addressed or not.
ImAGeek wrote: In terms of the 'they're Space Wolves, not Space Hounds' thing, that's actually addressed a bit in Betrayer, where Angron says that the Space Wolves aren't like wolves at all, more like lapdogs.
Thanks, I haven't really had a chance to read many of the Heresy novels so I didn't know if it was addressed or not.
Been trying to find the exact quote and I can't so I'm hoping I didn't imagine it haha. Maybe someone else knows it..?
Shidank wrote: I voted Fulgrim. Maybe I wanted the Heresy to happen?
Without Fulgrim, a number of key events would change and the tide would shift dramatically in the Imperium's favor.
Hmm, the Eldar did try to approach him to warn him about Chaos and it ended miserably with him virus bombing their maiden worlds. Not sure if they would have tried to approach someone more reasonable
Spoiler:
I like the utter shock Eldrad experiences when he realizes the humans aren't aware of Chaos
Fulgrim's reaction following a minor upset wherein he scorches the Exodite worlds he had just guaranteed safe showed he may not have been the right Primarch for the Eldar to approach.
The shock actually made me laugh at the old "just as planned" Eldar lametard. I wondered, "Why Fulgrim?" and just brought it down to the fact he was likely the closest one.
Shidank wrote: Fulgrim's reaction following a minor upset wherein he scorches the Exodite worlds he had just guaranteed safe showed he may not have been the right Primarch for the Eldar to approach.
The shock actually made me laugh at the old "just as planned" Eldar lametard. I wondered, "Why Fulgrim?" and just brought it down to the fact he was likely the closest one.
Eldrad actually says he approached Fulgrim because he acted differently from the other humans they'd encountered in that he admired the maiden worlds without attempting to settle them. When asked why by Eldrad, Fulgrim says it was because they were too beautiful to spoil. (and then he virus bombs them )
And yea, Eldrad seriously misjudged them. And he didn't know about the magic blade!
Eight years does a lot to erode the memory of a Primarch meeting an a**hat Eldar.
I would have to think that since that meeting did little to actually help anything, this would reinforce the point that Fulgrim was a poisonous presence.
I like Fulgrim, but the man made bad choices. His portrayal early in his novel was far better than any since, but we have what we have.
Without him, the EC would likely be on Terra or at least close. Manus wouldn't have lost his mind and Horus would have had a rival in the 'Master of War' department. Perturabo and his legion would not have been corrupted by their swim in a black hole in the Eye of Terror. Guilliman would still be correcting decimal points on import/export logs. Molech wouldn't have fallen.
I'm sure there's more, but I'm pretending to work at present.
ImAGeek wrote: To be fair I think Fulgrim might have been more reasonable had he 1. Not had that bloody sword, and 2. Been written atleast somewhat decently.
Having recently read Fulgrim, I have to say number 2 is the main reason. The story is still interesting but it's really terribly written. I mean seriously.
Fulgrim himself is so utterly unsympathetic and just goes along with whatever the sword says (takes like one whisper in his head to completely sway him). Even before that the only thing he has going for him is that he looks magnificent, even if he does need to apply makeup (yea he actually paints his face). He's also unable to take even the slightest criticism from anybody. It really makes him look like he has the mentality of a child.
Not sure why the story was half from the PoV of remembrancers either (and it seems that aside from the sword, they did the most to corrupt the EC. In one scene Lucius just goes along with whatever the remembrancer says - "oh, I know how you feel. Carve up your face, you'll feel better" and Lucius goes, "okay!"). The EC really are depicted as puppets just going along with everyone's whims.
ImAGeek wrote: To be fair I think Fulgrim might have been more reasonable had he 1. Not had that bloody sword, and 2. Been written atleast somewhat decently.
Having recently read Fulgrim, I have to say number 2 is the main reason. The story is still interesting but it's really terribly written. I mean seriously.
Fulgrim himself is so utterly unsympathetic and just goes along with whatever the sword says (takes like one whisper in his head to completely sway him). Even before that the only thing he has going for him is that he looks magnificent, even if he does need to apply makeup (yea he actually paints his face). He's also unable to take even the slightest criticism from anybody. It really makes him look like he has the mentality of a child.
Not sure why the story was half from the PoV of remembrancers either (and it seems that aside from the sword, they did the most to corrupt the EC. In one scene Lucius just goes along with whatever the remembrancer says - "oh, I know how you feel. Carve up your face, you'll feel better" and Lucius goes, "okay!"). The EC really are depicted as puppets just going along with everyone's whims.
Yup, I agree. The first time I read it, it was ok, but I read it again and pretty much hated it. There was no sense of tragedy to his fall, he started out as a dick anyway, there's no gravitas to his corruption at all.
ImAGeek wrote: To be fair I think Fulgrim might have been more reasonable had he 1. Not had that bloody sword, and 2. Been written atleast somewhat decently.
Having recently read Fulgrim, I have to say number 2 is the main reason. The story is still interesting but it's really terribly written. I mean seriously.
Fulgrim himself is so utterly unsympathetic and just goes along with whatever the sword says (takes like one whisper in his head to completely sway him). Even before that the only thing he has going for him is that he looks magnificent, even if he does need to apply makeup (yea he actually paints his face). He's also unable to take even the slightest criticism from anybody. It really makes him look like he has the mentality of a child.
Not sure why the story was half from the PoV of remembrancers either (and it seems that aside from the sword, they did the most to corrupt the EC. In one scene Lucius just goes along with whatever the remembrancer says - "oh, I know how you feel. Carve up your face, you'll feel better" and Lucius goes, "okay!"). The EC really are depicted as puppets just going along with everyone's whims.
Yup, I agree. The first time I read it, it was ok, but I read it again and pretty much hated it. There was no sense of tragedy to his fall, he started out as a dick anyway, there's no gravitas to his corruption at all.
If you want a good fall, read Eisenhorn again.
If I'm being fair, none of the traitor primarch falls are that great. All of them seem too simple, unmotivated, and evil for the sake of it. It's a tired sort of writing that eventually just leaves you unsatisfied.
ImAGeek wrote: To be fair I think Fulgrim might have been more reasonable had he 1. Not had that bloody sword, and 2. Been written atleast somewhat decently.
Having recently read Fulgrim, I have to say number 2 is the main reason. The story is still interesting but it's really terribly written. I mean seriously.
Fulgrim himself is so utterly unsympathetic and just goes along with whatever the sword says (takes like one whisper in his head to completely sway him). Even before that the only thing he has going for him is that he looks magnificent, even if he does need to apply makeup (yea he actually paints his face). He's also unable to take even the slightest criticism from anybody. It really makes him look like he has the mentality of a child.
Not sure why the story was half from the PoV of remembrancers either (and it seems that aside from the sword, they did the most to corrupt the EC. In one scene Lucius just goes along with whatever the remembrancer says - "oh, I know how you feel. Carve up your face, you'll feel better" and Lucius goes, "okay!"). The EC really are depicted as puppets just going along with everyone's whims.
Yup, I agree. The first time I read it, it was ok, but I read it again and pretty much hated it. There was no sense of tragedy to his fall, he started out as a dick anyway, there's no gravitas to his corruption at all.
If you want a good fall, read Eisenhorn again.
If I'm being fair, none of the traitor primarch falls are that great. All of them seem too simple, unmotivated, and evil for the sake of it. It's a tired sort of writing that eventually just leaves you unsatisfied.
I liked First Heretic, you could argue that Lorgar turned a bit quick but you can actually see why he turns, whether you agree or not, and I like Angron after Betrayer, you can empathise a bit with him. But yeah, Horus' fall was very rushed, Fulgrim was... Yeah, Alpharius was weird and is still up in the air, we don't really know much about Mortarions (although there's a little bit about it in Scars, which I really liked), Curze was basically there anyway, I don't mind Perturabos, I can see why he fell, and Magnus you can see why too but he hasn't officially joined the traitors yet.
Pert was one of the ones who made sense, but in a constructed way. The character himself doesn't seem to drive the change so much as the obvious mistreatment in his past.
Shidank wrote: Pert was one of the ones who made sense, but in a constructed way. The character himself doesn't seem to drive the change so much as the obvious mistreatment in his past.
Do you mean, as opposed to Angron and Curze who were so obvious, Perturabo could've been loyal had he been treated with the respect he deserved during the Great Crusade? Because if so I agree haha.
Absolutely. Curze and Angron got the crap end of the stick, but Pert was a fairly well-developed character. His turn makes the least sense as a character, but the most sense given the contrived context.
The Heresy may have occurred without Horus and Lorgar, Chaos could use other Primarchs. However, it's thought that the Isstvan massacre was Alpharius' plan, which wrecked 3 Legions for the entirety of the Heresy (RG came back in small numbers near the end).
Though maybe Perturabo. Without Perturabo the Siege of Terra wouldn't have lasted very long.
Lorgar, though not for the same reasons others have stated.
Without him, the Heresy would no doubt have taken a different turn; sooner or later Chaos would force a reckoning with mankind, though without Lorgar the chances of that being via Horus are significantly reduced, it may have taken longer and relied more on the Daemonic/common human, but we can largely assume that the Big E's plan to keep everyone ignorant would have backfired somehow, sometime.
Instead, going with the question of changing history to favour of the Imperium, without Lorgar, there is no foundation for the Cult Imperialis.
No matter what happens otherwise, not having the Imperium turn into an insane theocracy in the Emperor's absence due to Lorgar and Co would be immensely benefiecial to the Imperium post-heresy. A civilization not dominated by extremely reactionary dogma could instead continue to innovate, develop and move forwards.
It would then mean I could have hover-Leman Russes. Suck it Tau!
person67 wrote: Logar maybe people are right about horus, but bearing in mind horus was the greatest in the crusade without him the emperor would have been killed by an ork warlord IIRC. Ererus never would have got near horus without Logar. Though I can see the argument for both horus and Robute gulliman
Why can you see an argument for Guilliman?
I voted Lorgar, I think him or Horus could work, but it seems sensible to cut it off at the source. Erebus mightttt have still had some sway but I don't think he'd have been in the position to had it not been for Lorgar.
mostly codex astartes hate. people tend to forget Gulliman pretty much single handedly kept the IoM together during the post heresy years.
yeah Codex astartes is the reason for hate. honestly the only primarch I would choose would be logar
The danger from Chaos to the Primarchs comes mostly from them knowing so little about it. Two of the three individuals most commonly selected (Magnus and Lorgar) were selected because of actions they might not have made if they knew what was going on. Unfortunately, since the Emperor was one that was concealing that knowledge, I don't think that stopping the Heresy from happening would have been what made the difference. Another Primarch could have fallen- Magnus being an excellent first candidate, if his sorcerous experiments after Nikea were discovered. I don't think finishing the Golden Throne would have stopped it, either. Post-fall, the Webway could be invaded by daemons anyway.
I also think another leader for the Heresy would have risen without Horus.
As such, I think the goal isn't to prevent the Heresy, but to make it as one-sided as possible. As such, the tank I'd kill would contain the twins, Alpharius and Omegon. Why?
1) The Alpha Legion is the one Legion that would have ended up on the Traitor side no matter what else happened. Killing another primarch would not have prevented the Cabal from convincing them to side with Chaos. Alpharius joined the traitors for purely rational reasons- he was not corrupted, betrayed, or made a mistake that led to his fall. Alpharius didn't fall- he jumped. Without him, the members of the Legion might have ended in a Loyalist Legion's forces. If not, they at least wouldn't have been led by the twins, who were the best of the Primarchs at guerilla warfare (including holding actions, leading to point three)
2) The Drop Site Massacre fit precisely with the tactics of one set of traitor Primarchs. Its success probably had something to do with the practice the twins had at this sort of warfare.
3) Without the twins to hold them up as long as they did, the Legion with the most experience at killing Space Marines- the Space Wolves- would have landed on Terra in time enough to change the course of the battle. The Emperor survives as the Wolves land en masse and butcher the traitors. Even better, maybe the traitors never made it to Terra, since the Raven Guard, Iron Hands, and Salamanders might have not been butchered wholesale at Istvaan V
If they had succeeded in decimating the Raven Guard, without the corruption of the Raptor program, the state of the Adeptus Astartes would be much, MUCH better than it is now.
4) Without Alpharius to troll the Ultramarines after the Heresy, the destruction of traitor forces after would have been much greater.
The danger from Chaos to the Primarchs comes mostly from them knowing so little about it. Two of the three individuals most commonly selected (Magnus and Lorgar) were selected because of actions they might not have made if they knew what was going on. Unfortunately, since the Emperor was one that was concealing that knowledge, I don't think that stopping the Heresy from happening would have been what made the difference. Another Primarch could have fallen- Magnus being an excellent first candidate, if his sorcerous experiments after Nikea were discovered. I don't think finishing the Golden Throne would have stopped it, either. Post-fall, the Webway could be invaded by daemons anyway.
I also think another leader for the Heresy would have risen without Horus.
As such, I think the goal isn't to prevent the Heresy, but to make it as one-sided as possible. As such, the tank I'd kill would contain the twins, Alpharius and Omegon. Why?
1) The Alpha Legion is the one Legion that would have ended up on the Traitor side no matter what else happened. Killing another primarch would not have prevented the Cabal from convincing them to side with Chaos. Alpharius joined the traitors for purely rational reasons- he was not corrupted, betrayed, or made a mistake that led to his fall. Alpharius didn't fall- he jumped. Without him, the members of the Legion might have ended in a Loyalist Legion's forces. If not, they at least wouldn't have been led by the twins, who were the best of the Primarchs at guerilla warfare (including holding actions, leading to point three)
2) The Drop Site Massacre fit precisely with the tactics of one set of traitor Primarchs. Its success probably had something to do with the practice the twins had at this sort of warfare.
3) Without the twins to hold them up as long as they did, the Legion with the most experience at killing Space Marines- the Space Wolves- would have landed on Terra in time enough to change the course of the battle. The Emperor survives as the Wolves land en masse and butcher the traitors. Even better, maybe the traitors never made it to Terra, since the Raven Guard, Iron Hands, and Salamanders might have not been butchered wholesale at Istvaan V
If they had succeeded in decimating the Raven Guard, without the corruption of the Raptor program, the state of the Adeptus Astartes would be much, MUCH better than it is now.
4) Without Alpharius to troll the Ultramarines after the Heresy, the destruction of traitor forces after would have been much greater.
ImAGeek wrote: Yup, I agree. The first time I read it, it was ok, but I read it again and pretty much hated it. There was no sense of tragedy to his fall, he started out as a dick anyway, there's no gravitas to his corruption at all.
Yea, I went off on a bit of rant there
But yea, I just felt no connection or sense of tragedy at all. I'm excited about The First Heretic. Lorgar's fall always made the most sense and at least they know what it really means to turn to Chaos. It's a concious decision, unlike with almost every other legion and Primarch out there.
And yea, aborting the Twins would make sense but I think the Dropsite Massacre would still have been a success. The loyalists were completely outnumbered.
As much as the Horus Heresy was largely caused/ could be prevented without Lorgar or Horus. I personally would go for either Konrad Kurze or Fulgrim.
Without Konrad Lorgar would have most likely died in the Dropsite Masacre at the hands of Corvus because Konrad wouldn't have been able to intervene, also he wouldn't have captured and tortured Vulkan so Vulkan wouldn't go bat crap crazy and have to be put down (pun intended).
On the other hand without Fulgrim Ferrus Mans would still be alive along with Roboute Gulliman (do I really want this though... Idk?)
Overall I vote Konrad.
Without him the loyalists would have one more primarch and the traitors would be down their guide into the world that is chaos and have a hard time gaining any real momentum early in the war.
Not to mention the planet he lived on which had an insane ammount of raw adamantium might have been better brought into the imperial fold making better use of its supplies instead of staying a corrupt piece of crap like it did. Basically since it wouldn't be a recruiting world, odds are it would have been more effectively cleansed of the immoral populace it housed.
In all this I forgot to mention that he wouldn't have been distracting the crap out of the Dark Angels who would have gotten to Terra on time and made it possible for the Loyalists to mop the floor with the Traitors
On another nother side note Konrad kind of invented exterminatus so if you are against the whole abortion thing then I can't see what's worse than aborting an entire planet.
Yaavaragefinkinman wrote: As much as the Horus Heresy was largely caused/ could be prevented without Lorgar or Horus. I personally would go for either Konrad Kurze or Fulgrim.
Without Konrad Lorgar would have most likely died in the Dropsite Masacre at the hands of Corvus because Konrad wouldn't have been able to intervene, also he wouldn't have captured and tortured Vulkan so Vulkan wouldn't go bat crap crazy and have to be put down (pun intended).
On the other hand without Fulgrim Ferrus Mans would still be alive along with Roboute Gulliman (do I really want this though... Idk?)
Overall I vote Konrad.
Without him the loyalists would have one more primarch and the traitors would be down their guide into the world that is chaos and have a hard time gaining any real momentum early in the war.
Not to mention the planet he lived on which had an insane ammount of raw adamantium might have been better brought into the imperial fold making better use of its supplies instead of staying a corrupt piece of crap like it did. Basically since it wouldn't be a recruiting world, odds are it would have been more effectively cleansed of the immoral populace it housed.
In all this I forgot to mention that he wouldn't have been distracting the crap out of the Dark Angels who would have gotten to Terra on time and made it possible for the Loyalists to mop the floor with the Traitors
On another nother side note Konrad kind of invented exterminatus so if you are against the whole abortion thing then I can't see what's worse than aborting an entire planet.
At this I end my rant
The adamantium from Nocturne wasn't destroyed. The metal is so durable it was merely scattered across space in gigantic asteroid chunks.
Wyzilla wrote: The adamantium from Nocturne wasn't destroyed. The metal is so durable it was merely scattered across space in gigantic asteroid chunks.
Wyzilla wrote: The adamantium from Nocturne wasn't destroyed. The metal is so durable it was merely scattered across space in gigantic asteroid chunks.
Well my 2 cents is Sang(assume they were in same pod). I'm basing this more off the star child prophecy.
The legions that all went chaos in theory have "replacements" to keep them all balanced. I kill Lorgar and maybe the heresy is later but Typhus was already pledged to nurgle. He probably could've replaced Erabus (spelling?). Theirs is Horus the master of assault but I kill him maybe Perturabo take the mantle of chaos and leads the attack. Does it work as well. Probably not. The "main" issue horus caused was jealously among everyone. I think the Emperor still has a "favored" son and he is chosen. Magnus is the other big player on chaos to kill. Honestly killing him can range from minimum effect to honestly changing everything. Maybe no golden throne at all. My assumption though is that all the same however Horus gets smashed because space wolves don't get stuck with killing them and fight at Terra. Everyone else is completely replaceable.
Now killing the good guys. Guillman means that there is no "large" legion so World Eaters and Word Bearers at Terra. Horus never lowers the shields. Dorn is self explanatory. Dorn dead emperor doesn't even get the chance to kill Horus because the seige of Terra takes maybe 5 minutes. Dorn literally saved Terra. Russ forced Mangus hand to go chaos but i think he still turns. Khan, El'jonson, Ferrus, Corax, Vulkan.
Now why I think Sang. If he dies 2 possible prophecies could kick into effect. The first that I don't think happens in the cabal prophecy were horus so devastated kills everything in the universe so the warp loses all its power.
The second one I think is more relevant is the star child prophecy. Aka Big E becomes a god in the warp and pushes back the chaos gods.
If Lorgar never had Emporer worship, they never would have been shamed by UM + Emp, so would have never searched for a new god to worship ala Erebus wouldn't have found Chaos, as he never would have searched for it.
Erebus and Kor Phaeron followed Chaos from before Lorgar I believe. But They wouldn't have had any sway if not for Lorgar.
Correctamundo
Without Lorgar, Erebus and Kor Phaeron would have been two random zealots brutally slain by the Emperor's Heralds when the legion made planetfall on a non-compliant Colchis. Everything that defines the Word Bearers as we know them would have been wiped away by Imperial Iterators or brutally dismembered by the 17th Legion.
EmpNortonII wrote: So, here's my thought on the matter.
...
1) The Alpha Legion is the one Legion that would have ended up on the Traitor side no matter what else happened. Killing another primarch would not have prevented the Cabal from convincing them to side with Chaos. Alpharius joined the traitors for purely rational reasons- he was not corrupted, betrayed, or made a mistake that led to his fall. Alpharius didn't fall- he jumped. Without him, the members of the Legion might have ended in a Loyalist Legion's forces. If not, they at least wouldn't have been led by the twins, who were the best of the Primarchs at guerilla warfare (including holding actions, leading to point three)
2) The Drop Site Massacre fit precisely with the tactics of one set of traitor Primarchs. Its success probably had something to do with the practice the twins had at this sort of warfare.
3) Without the twins to hold them up as long as they did, the Legion with the most experience at killing Space Marines- the Space Wolves- would have landed on Terra in time enough to change the course of the battle. The Emperor survives as the Wolves land en masse and butcher the traitors. Even better, maybe the traitors never made it to Terra, since the Raven Guard, Iron Hands, and Salamanders might have not been butchered wholesale at Istvaan V
If they had succeeded in decimating the Raven Guard, without the corruption of the Raptor program, the state of the Adeptus Astartes would be much, MUCH better than it is now.
4) Without Alpharius to troll the Ultramarines after the Heresy, the destruction of traitor forces after would have been much greater.
Imo the Drop Site Massacre is influenced by Horus first and foremost - it has some elements that the Alpha Legion are known for - notably the complex multi stage approach it took to destroying the Loyalist Legions but it doesn't have any of the infiltration tactics they usually used. The Drop Site Massacre was complex, but only as complex as it needed to be. More than anything it was bold and designed to be a decisive strike, at its core it has a very simple concept - apply overwhelming force and destroy the command structure of the enemy to remove their ability to function and crush morale. This is Horus through and through, he is a master of grand strategy but generally favoured very direct 'cut off the head' type tactics when he was personally involved.
I think Lorgar is the best choice here but it is very hard to know. I definitely don't think removing Horus from the equation would have a major impact - that would mean that Russ is the first Primarch to be found and possibly improved his status with the Emperor but his personality and in particular his loyalty and sense of duty would still be the deciding factor in that relationship (i.e. I don't think Russ becomes Horus, he would still be the Executioner who takes the dirty jobs does whatever it takes to get them done). It could lead to an interesting scenario where he becomes the Warmaster (which I actually think he would be great at because there is no way he flips to Chaos), but more likely I think Sanguinius would get it. That would imo lead to a far worse Heresy because Sanguinius was probably stronger than Horus, was still widely (if not more widely) liked but had a much deeper 'dark side' and had further to fall. I actually think the Emperor recognised this, he picked Horus to make sure Sanguinius didn't get loaded with more pressure and made sure the Warmaster was a more grounded 'human' figure. Even moreso than any of this other brothers Sanguinius was clearly an angelic superhuman (an not just because of his wings) and I think he was worried about the divide that might cause between Astartes and regular humans.
Really I think the desired outcome here (assuming you are going for 'good side' win) is to kill whoever sets back the Emperor's work the most and/or reduces his trust in his sons - with the goal being that the Emperor reveals the existence of Chaos to the Primarchs and manages to progress past the 'unify humanity' stage of his plans and gets to the 'deal with Chaos' part that was almost certainly coming next (with the Webway projects etc). If that happens then Fulgrim doesn't fall, Magnus understands the boundaries and Alpharius doesn't jump in with the Cabal because he already knows about their end game. This means primarchs who had a larger degree of personal interaction with him so I feel Horus (first/favoured son, maybe Russ would have inspired more confidence and trust with the Emperor if he was found first?), Lorgar (ethos was the direct opposite of what the Emperor was trying to build, also brought Erebus into the mix and he would almost certainly have been dead if Lorgar didn't unite Colchis before the Imperium showed up) or possibly Magnus (pushed the boundaries the most) are the best choices imo.
Yeah, most of that was wishful thinking. There's no tie to the Alpha Legion and the planning and execution of Istvaan V. Heck, if anything, it's actually a pretty simple strategy based entirely on treachery. I mean, it wasn't like it took Creed-level genius for the Word Bearers to attack Calth (well, nobody would accuse the Word Bearers of tactical genius, given the fact that they had complete surprise and establed space supremacy and still lost, lol). They attacked a foe that believed them to be an ally and thus had no reason to believe they would be attacked.
The only thing that makes it potentially Alpharius's brainchild is that it was executed inefficiently by allowing the first wave of loyalists to fully engage with the five known traitors, thus needlessly costing them extra casualties. An attack on the loyal legions as they struck would sow confusion and... chaos, and leave them sitting ducks for the combined firepower of both sets of traitors. But, then again, Guilliman had correctly identified Alpharius's penchant for poor battle planning, so maybe she is on to something after all.
If Lorgar never had Emporer worship, they never would have been shamed by UM + Emp, so would have never searched for a new god to worship ala Erebus wouldn't have found Chaos, as he never would have searched for it.
Erebus and Kor Phaeron followed Chaos from before Lorgar I believe. But They wouldn't have had any sway if not for Lorgar.
Correctamundo
Without Lorgar, Erebus and Kor Phaeron would have been two random zealots brutally slain by the Emperor's Heralds when the legion made planetfall on a non-compliant Colchis. Everything that defines the Word Bearers as we know them would have been wiped away by Imperial Iterators or brutally dismembered by the 17th Legion.
But, let's have a mental exercise. Lorgar is aborted. No primarchs are sent to the religious planet. The crusade arrives there when they would have discovered Lorgar (DEBATABLE on the fact that the Emperor was 'drawn' to the Primarchs, so without a primarch, wouldn't have been there for a while). They don't like imperial truth, so they get virus-bombed. G'bye Erebus.
Continuing with this universe, Angron would have eventually either rebelled himself when he saw an opening, or learned a moral lesson and came to begrudgingly love the Emperor in 30 minutes with commercial breaks, awwwweee...
Curze, who blew up his own planet, would have likely joined due to a corrupted heart. Fulgrims creepy whispering sword would have led him over also. Not to mention Mortarion.
The important thing is that without Lorgoar, and by extention Erubus and Kol Phaerun, Horus would not have fallen. Without Horus the traitors, if there were any, would be fragmented and uncoordinated. I am not sure that Motorian or Curze would have fallen without Horus. Curze could have gotten help from Sangunius or Magnus with his visons. Mortorian I don't know enough ebout to be sure.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: I mean, it wasn't like it took Creed-level genius for the Word Bearers to attack Calth (well, nobody would accuse the Word Bearers of tactical genius, given the fact that they had complete surprise and establed space supremacy and still lost, lol). They attacked a foe that believed them to be an ally and thus had no reason to believe they would be attacked.
Is it just me, or are Word Bearers as a whole pesented as the most incompetent Legion by far?
No matter how hard they try to stack the deck in their favor they always seem to fail.
Wyzilla wrote: There's nothing credible that points to him being superior. Horus gets ganked by a Nurgle Chosen, Corax meanwhile walks off lascannon shots and Sanguinius utterly demolished Greater Daemons as a hobby.
Yea but that Nurgle dude had an anathame. The way it was written seems to indicate that it would have had the same effect on any other Primarch. And the differences in the Primarch's strengths and survivability depends on the authors writing them, no? I thought there were already plenty of discussions on this subject, as when Guilliman was nearly offed by random Alpha Legion marines.
I still can't think of any fluff indicating that the Primarchs you listed were superior to him physically. Can you give me some examples?
I hate it when this comes up. I understand that it was like a week ago, but still. Rowboat Girlyman was hit by at least three dozen torso shots from explosive bolts, and he was stuck TWICE in the head. AND AND AND he was stabbed in the back by a Gladius that went all the way in up to the hilt. It's a testament to his toughness and strength, not his weakness.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: I mean, it wasn't like it took Creed-level genius for the Word Bearers to attack Calth (well, nobody would accuse the Word Bearers of tactical genius, given the fact that they had complete surprise and establed space supremacy and still lost, lol). They attacked a foe that believed them to be an ally and thus had no reason to believe they would be attacked.
Is it just me, or are Word Bearers as a whole pesented as the most incompetent Legion by far?
No matter how hard they try to stack the deck in their favor they always seem to fail.
The Attack on Calth was a success though. They took the UM out of the heresy, they created the warpstorm around Ultramar, and they purged the legion of the legionnaires who were just focussed on petty revenge. They also could've easily killed Guilliman but Kor Phaeron is an absolute idiot and tried to turn him instead. The only real failure of theirs is the whole Furious Abyss debacle.
Wyzilla wrote: There's nothing credible that points to him being superior. Horus gets ganked by a Nurgle Chosen, Corax meanwhile walks off lascannon shots and Sanguinius utterly demolished Greater Daemons as a hobby.
Yea but that Nurgle dude had an anathame. The way it was written seems to indicate that it would have had the same effect on any other Primarch. And the differences in the Primarch's strengths and survivability depends on the authors writing them, no? I thought there were already plenty of discussions on this subject, as when Guilliman was nearly offed by random Alpha Legion marines.
I still can't think of any fluff indicating that the Primarchs you listed were superior to him physically. Can you give me some examples?
I hate it when this comes up. I understand that it was like a week ago, but still. Rowboat Girlyman was hit by at least three dozen torso shots from explosive bolts, and he was stuck TWICE in the head. AND AND AND he was stabbed in the back by a Gladius that went all the way in up to the hilt. It's a testament to his toughness and strength, not his weakness.
We had an entire thread about how tough Primarchs are and the Guilliman discussion went on for several pages. Why didn't you bring up then? And alright, maybe he was really tough. That wasn't really my point though. I was asking if there was any fluff indicating that Horus was physically inferior to the Primarchs listed.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: I mean, it wasn't like it took Creed-level genius for the Word Bearers to attack Calth (well, nobody would accuse the Word Bearers of tactical genius, given the fact that they had complete surprise and establed space supremacy and still lost, lol). They attacked a foe that believed them to be an ally and thus had no reason to believe they would be attacked.
Is it just me, or are Word Bearers as a whole pesented as the most incompetent Legion by far?
No matter how hard they try to stack the deck in their favor they always seem to fail.
Yes, but that's their place in the story. If they were competent, they'd never have fallen to Chaos.
Lorgar wanted, more than anything, validation and love from his father. He became insanely jealous of his brothers who were more successful, militarily, than him, like Guilliman. He knew he was the least strategically minded of his brothers, and knew his father values martial virtues over all others. The rejection at Monarchia destroyed Lorgar. While he rationalized his quest as looking for answers, what Lorgar actually wanted was validation. The one thing he loved more than anything rejected him, so he went searching for someone who would value him. Which, of course, led him to Chaos. Lorgar was so desperate for validation that he trusted a greater daemon who told him that he would tell him one lie for every truth, and Lorgar took everything at face value, lol.
The Word Bearers are as much a parable of the dangers of organized religion as the Ecclesiarchy is. The Ecclesiarchy just represents the grimdark version of the Institution, and Word Bearers the grimdark version of the Faithful.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: I mean, it wasn't like it took Creed-level genius for the Word Bearers to attack Calth (well, nobody would accuse the Word Bearers of tactical genius, given the fact that they had complete surprise and establed space supremacy and still lost, lol). They attacked a foe that believed them to be an ally and thus had no reason to believe they would be attacked.
Is it just me, or are Word Bearers as a whole pesented as the most incompetent Legion by far?
No matter how hard they try to stack the deck in their favor they always seem to fail.
The Attack on Calth was a success though. They took the UM out of the heresy,
Calth was a success in some senses, but not a Word Bearers success by any means. They were pawns that Horus sacrificed. The Word Bearers were his least valuable troops, so he expended them to do as much damage to the Ultramarines as possible. Horus had no intention of getting back any of the Word Bearers he sent to Calth. He expected them all to die. And, well, they did, lol.
To be fair, the Black Library's version of Horus's strategy makes about as much sense as you could expect from a bunch of writers who don't know much about military strategy, but I guess that's neither here nor there. In the older versions of the story, Horus went straight to Terra, taking advantage of the surprise and confusion after Istvaan V. He had 8 Legions, and the Loyalists had 6, only 3 of which could make it to Terra in time to oppose him. His forces were also depleted (having had to kill off their own loyalists), making speed all that much more important. He sacrificed the Word Bearers to slow down the Ultramarines, and already depleted the Space Wolves by throwing them in a frontal assault on Prospero. So really, Horus was taking maybe 5 Legions worth of Marines to Terra to fight three Legions who were entrenched in one of the most heavily defended targets possible. This is why I kinda laugh when people who don't really grasp the scope of the Heresy think there are still a ton of Traitor Marines from the Heresy kicking around in 40K. The Traitor Legions fought three consecutive huge battles, first against themselves, then in an assault on a defended position, and finally were chased across the galaxy in a disorganized rout (which is where the most casualties tend to occur in battles). There's a reason in the fluff the Loyal Legions didn't get divvied up very many times. Most of them were dead. And they won. Why people think that the same, and worse, wasn't true of the Traitors is just apparently a willful suspension of disblief, heh.
Though now, nobody could honestly give me a coherent picture of what Horus's strategy is, other than to apparently send his armies all across the galaxy doing Chaos Gods knows what and allowing the Loyalists to regroup, accomplishing some objectives of questionable value, then eventually going to Terra. Why are the Blood Angels on the other side of the galaxy at Macragge and how are they going to get to Terra in time to help save it? Or for that matter, how do the Blood Angels get from Macragge to Terra, but the Ultramarines don't? "Who knows? Why's this gotta make sense? Shut up and write more books."
The Attack on Calth was a success though. They took the UM out of the heresy,
Calth was a success in some senses, but not a Word Bearers success by any means. They were pawns that Horus sacrificed. The Word Bearers were his least valuable troops, so he expended them to do as much damage to the Ultramarines as possible. Horus had no intention of getting back any of the Word Bearers he sent to Calth. He expected them all to die. And, well, they did, lol.
***
Someone get this man a cookie or at least a hug for being the first to say this out loud.
To be fair, I've said this many times in the past.
Though, originally (IA:WB), Calth was Lorgar's idea and the battle much different (it wasn't a surprise attack and there was no mustering for some campaign). It wasn't until Collected Visions that the "current" version appeared.
But, let's have a mental exercise. Lorgar is aborted. No primarchs are sent to the religious planet. The crusade arrives there when they would have discovered Lorgar (DEBATABLE on the fact that the Emperor was 'drawn' to the Primarchs, so without a primarch, wouldn't have been there for a while). They don't like imperial truth, so they get virus-bombed. G'bye Erebus.
Continuing with this universe, Angron would have eventually either rebelled himself when he saw an opening, or learned a moral lesson and came to begrudgingly love the Emperor in 30 minutes with commercial breaks, awwwweee...
Curze, who blew up his own planet, would have likely joined due to a corrupted heart. Fulgrims creepy whispering sword would have led him over also. Not to mention Mortarion.
Magnus would probably have been tossed out when someone discovered he was still doing sorcery, Alpharius would have made the same decision.
Fulgrim might have led a rebellion, and he might have brought Ferrus along for the ride.
... someone else could have gotten the Anatheme, though, and done the same thing after their Legion suffered an embarrassment similar to Lorgar's, and Magnus, Angron, and Curze are all primarchs that could have easily been in Lorgar's place.
Given how many other options Chaos had, I think taking Lorgar out of the picture changes little.
But, let's have a mental exercise. Lorgar is aborted. No primarchs are sent to the religious planet. The crusade arrives there when they would have discovered Lorgar (DEBATABLE on the fact that the Emperor was 'drawn' to the Primarchs, so without a primarch, wouldn't have been there for a while). They don't like imperial truth, so they get virus-bombed. G'bye Erebus.
Continuing with this universe, Angron would have eventually either rebelled himself when he saw an opening, or learned a moral lesson and came to begrudgingly love the Emperor in 30 minutes with commercial breaks, awwwweee...
Curze, who blew up his own planet, would have likely joined due to a corrupted heart. Fulgrims creepy whispering sword would have led him over also. Not to mention Mortarion.
Magnus would probably have been tossed out when someone discovered he was still doing sorcery, Alpharius would have made the same decision.
Fulgrim might have led a rebellion, and he might have brought Ferrus along for the ride.
... someone else could have gotten the Anatheme, though, and done the same thing after their Legion suffered an embarrassment similar to Lorgar's, and Magnus, Angron, and Curze are all primarchs that could have easily been in Lorgar's place.
Given how many other options Chaos had, I think taking Lorgar out of the picture changes little.
I don't think the others you suggested would've reacted like Lorgar did if they were rebuked though. Lorgar needed faith, that's why when the object of his faith rebuked him like that, he immediately went looking for something else to believe in. Magnus, Curze and Angron wouldn't have worshipped the Emperor to start with, let alone then felt the need to search out the Chaos gods.
But, let's have a mental exercise. Lorgar is aborted. No primarchs are sent to the religious planet. The crusade arrives there when they would have discovered Lorgar (DEBATABLE on the fact that the Emperor was 'drawn' to the Primarchs, so without a primarch, wouldn't have been there for a while). They don't like imperial truth, so they get virus-bombed. G'bye Erebus.
Continuing with this universe, Angron would have eventually either rebelled himself when he saw an opening, or learned a moral lesson and came to begrudgingly love the Emperor in 30 minutes with commercial breaks, awwwweee...
Curze, who blew up his own planet, would have likely joined due to a corrupted heart. Fulgrims creepy whispering sword would have led him over also. Not to mention Mortarion.
Magnus would probably have been tossed out when someone discovered he was still doing sorcery, Alpharius would have made the same decision.
Fulgrim might have led a rebellion, and he might have brought Ferrus along for the ride.
... someone else could have gotten the Anatheme, though, and done the same thing after their Legion suffered an embarrassment similar to Lorgar's, and Magnus, Angron, and Curze are all primarchs that could have easily been in Lorgar's place.
Given how many other options Chaos had, I think taking Lorgar out of the picture changes little.
I don't think the others you suggested would've reacted like Lorgar did if they were rebuked though. Lorgar needed faith, that's why when the object of his faith rebuked him like that, he immediately went looking for something else to believe in. Magnus, Curze and Angron wouldn't have worshipped the Emperor to start with, let alone then felt the need to search out the Chaos gods.
It is hinted that Curze was already being influenced by Chaos when the massacre at Istvaan III happened. He'd already started to hate the Emperor by this point. It's a very short jump from where he was when the Heresy broke out to where Lorgar was when he turned.
This got me thinking. What if a radical inquisitor or whatnot, came to the conclusion that the best thing for humanity was if none of the primarchs lived? Then went back in time with a void bomb but instead of killing the primarchs, the void bomb sucked them into the warp from which the chaos gods delightfully flung them hither and thither thus setting off the chain of events that would lead to the Heresy?
Lorgar was a passive-aggressive though. He let his hate stew for years and years while he looked for other answers. Then he plotted to drag others into his heresy.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Lorgar was a passive-aggressive though. He let his hate stew for years and years while he looked for other answers. Then he plotted to drag others into his heresy.
Neither Angron nor Curze were that subtle.
Did they need to be? Alpharius made a rational choice. Horus was corrupted after being struck by a blade and "healed," a feat that could be repeated. Fulgrim was going slowly crazy because of a sword. Angron was going crazy... i mean, most of the heretics seem to fall into place on their own. All that was missing was a knowledge of Chaos- something that could have come from elsewhere.
Konrad was already in Deep gak because of how he and his Legion fought during the Crusade. What was going to happen when he was recalled to Earth?
Ya know, I just had the best idea for an alternative-history fiction... Konrad Curze, Rogue Trader.
The tale exists in an Imperium where there was no Horus Heresy. Expelled from the Imperium, Conrad would adventure on his starship, having wacky hijinks while finding work, illegal or not, barely making ends meet as he tries to stay one step of the encroaching imperium... and occasionally slaughtering the entire population of a planet when one person takes candy from a baby or kicks a puppy. He'd have his war-buddy and second-in-command Sevatar, Sevatar's wife that happens to be the ship's pilot, an Ecclesiarch that is naive despite having a mysterious and bloody past as part of the Imperium that will die before you know anything about him, an Ork mercenary, an Eldar prostitute, and an engineer that was supposed to be Chinese like half of the universe (spoiler- you will be more likely to find Waldo than a Chinese person in this series). Their lives will become complicated after meeting a crazy psyker and her brother that are fleeing the imperium.
It will be more original than half of the stuff produced by the Black Library.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Lorgar was a passive-aggressive though. He let his hate stew for years and years while he looked for other answers. Then he plotted to drag others into his heresy.
Neither Angron nor Curze were that subtle.
Did they need to be? Alpharius made a rational choice. Horus was corrupted after being struck by a blade and "healed," a feat that could be repeated. Fulgrim was going slowly crazy because of a sword. Angron was going crazy... i mean, most of the heretics seem to fall into place on their own. All that was missing was a knowledge of Chaos- something that could have come from elsewhere.
Konrad was already in Deep gak because of how he and his Legion fought during the Crusade. What was going to happen when he was recalled to Earth?
Ya know, I just had the best idea for an alternative-history fiction... Konrad Curze, Rogue Trader.
The tale exists in an Imperium where there was no Horus Heresy. Expelled from the Imperium, Conrad would adventure on his starship, having wacky hijinks while finding work, illegal or not, barely making ends meet as he tries to stay one step of the encroaching imperium... and occasionally slaughtering the entire population of a planet when one person takes candy from a baby or kicks a puppy. He'd have his war-buddy and second-ion-command Sevatar, Sevatar's wife that happens to be the ship's pilot, an Ecclesiarch that is naive despite having a mysterious and bloody past as part of the Imperium that will die before you know anything about him, an Ork mercenary, an Eldar prostitute, and an engineer that was supposed to be Chinese like half of the universe (spoiler- you will be more likely to find Waldo than a Chinese person in this series). Their lives will become complicated after meeting a crazy psyker and her brother that are fleeing the imperium.
It will be more original than half of the stuff produced by the Black Library.
EmpNortonII wrote: The tale exists in an Imperium where there was no Horus Heresy. Expelled from the Imperium, Conrad would adventure on his starship, having wacky hijinks while finding work, illegal or not, barely making ends meet as he tries to stay one step of the encroaching imperium... and occasionally slaughtering the entire population of a planet when one person takes candy from a baby or kicks a puppy. He'd have his war-buddy and second-in-command Sevatar, Sevatar's wife that happens to be the ship's pilot, an Ecclesiarch that is naive despite having a mysterious and bloody past as part of the Imperium that will die before you know anything about him, an Ork mercenary, an Eldar prostitute, and an engineer that was supposed to be Chinese like half of the universe (spoiler- you will be more likely to find Waldo than a Chinese person in this series). Their lives will become complicated after meeting a crazy psyker and her brother that are fleeing the imperium.
EmpNortonII wrote: You are an assassin of the Officio Assassinorum. By a miracle of technology, you have been teleported back in time and through space, and you are in the laboratory the Emperor is using to gestate the Primarchs. You have none of your gear, but all of your forum, RL knowledge of the Horus Heresy and within moments, you will be killed by the automated defenses of the lab. You have time to terminate the life support of exactly ONE Primarch tank before you are blown to atoms. For the might of the Imperium, which do you choose?
EmpNortonII wrote: Ya know, I just had the best idea for an alternative-history fiction... Konrad Curze, Rogue Trader.
The tale exists in an Imperium where there was no Horus Heresy. Expelled from the Imperium, Conrad would adventure on his starship, having wacky hijinks while finding work, illegal or not, barely making ends meet as he tries to stay one step of the encroaching imperium... and occasionally slaughtering the entire population of a planet when one person takes candy from a baby or kicks a puppy. He'd have his war-buddy and second-in-command Sevatar, Sevatar's wife that happens to be the ship's pilot, an Ecclesiarch that is naive despite having a mysterious and bloody past as part of the Imperium that will die before you know anything about him, an Ork mercenary, an Eldar prostitute, and an engineer that was supposed to be Chinese like half of the universe (spoiler- you will be more likely to find Waldo than a Chinese person in this series). Their lives will become complicated after meeting a crazy psyker and her brother that are fleeing the imperium.
It will be more original than half of the stuff produced by the Black Library.
So...when would be the chapter about a pretty little bonnet and Ms.Curze...? Will there also be a graphic novel where everything gets real as they unravel the dark truth of the Imperium which may lead to the deaths of some major characters while another of the main cast unlocks crazy skills and a long awaited romance finally blossoms?
Also regarding the topic: I'm with everyone on Lorgar. His home world gets purged. One less temptation from chaos. Fulgrim will probably go nuts eventually along Angron & some of the other obvious traitors except this time Horus isn't corrupted and is actually on the Imperium's side. The decree of Nekia(spelt it wrong) is done but Magnus & his Sons are actually brought in by the Wolves instead of fought since really the only real reason the fighting took place was because Horus(whom at the time Russ didn't know had turned traitor) wouldn't have told Russ that the order was changed to an extermination one instead of the arrest. What happens after that is anyone's guess really but is still all according to Tszeech's plan because "My pwan iz so gwait!" which by the wait read that in Mandark from Dexter's Lab's voice, so really who knows. Space Wolves are at Terra, the siege of Terra probably won't go over too well if at all, Rob doesn't have to deal with Word Bearers and only has to deal with World Eaters really. Drop Se Massacre was a plan by Horus but could be devised by Alpha but would have been more complex and all that fun jazz. All in all Chaos would have their normal traitors just they wouldn't have Horus and his sons which means no Abbadon but hey Abby could turn traitor later if not during. Who knows really in that regard. The traitors probably would have taken a different overall tactic to their respected rebellions. Probably not full blown war with Terra but more of what we see currently in 40K. Ferrus' fate is arguable about everything because he may or may not go traitors because of Fulgrim. I mean I don't really peg Ferrus as the traitorous type.
Also I really don't think things would have it be as Chaos always wins and gets what they want. Sorry but gods or not when you're that cocky about things...You're gonna mess up. Especially if you underestimate humans, Primarchs & space marines or not. Big E would have been able to safe guard his sons and probably address a lot more issues and resolved things with Magnus who probably, as atonement, would have had him and his sons power the Golden Throne since he and his sons wouldn't have had to fight the Space Wolves. Though hey during the trip maybe Magnus & Russ could have found some common ground to bond, who knows really. The biggest governing factor in addition to all this is the fact Horus & Rob would be working on the same side the Imperium would have been in amazing shape, more clear heads all around along with allowing Big E to work on the Golden Throne & the human web way portal but also bringing the Grey Knights into existence sooner rather then later since he wouldn't have needed to make them hide and lay dormant until the Heresy was over. So really taking out that Prophet Lorgar would result in far more benefits and good. Because anyone else...would just hinder things slightly not only during the Heresy but post heresy as well.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Lorgar was a passive-aggressive though. He let his hate stew for years and years while he looked for other answers. Then he plotted to drag others into his heresy.
Neither Angron nor Curze were that subtle.
Did they need to be? Alpharius made a rational choice.
Debatable.
Horus was corrupted after being struck by a blade and "healed," a feat that could be repeated.
Without Erebus?
Fulgrim was going slowly crazy because of a sword.
One guy.
Angron was going crazy
Who's going to follow Angron?
Konrad was already in Deep gak because of how he and his Legion fought during the Crusade. What was going to happen when he was recalled to Earth?
Horus was corrupted after being struck by a blade and "healed," a feat that could be repeated.
Without Erebus?
]Konrad was already in Deep gak because of how he and his Legion fought during the Crusade. What was going to happen when he was recalled to Earth?
Who's going to follow Curze?
Curze is rebuked by the Emperor. Kurze, pissed off over the hypocrisy of the Emperor, gets the same treatment the Raven Guard gave to the Sharks, and is sent into the outer night to kill xenos. Curze finds out about Chaos and comes back to steal the same knife, jabs Horus (or Sanguinius, or Rowboat, any of the three would have had spectacular results for different reasons) who gets "healed" and Heresy repeats.
I'm just saying the idea of Curze being the impetus for a Heresy is unlikely. He lacks the subtlety for it that Lorgar did, and nobody would have followed him because he lacked the respect of the other Primarchs. The setup for the Heresy was a lot more involved than "Stab Horus, wait for lolz".
I mean, the very fact that you believe Guilliman or Sanguinius were corruptible exposes a flaw in your thinking. Both of those characters lack the specific character flaws Horus did that made him vulnerable. We know because Horus tried to convert Sanguinius and failed, and Horus acknowledged right off the bat he wouldn't be able to convince Guilliman.
The primarchs who fell embodied many of the Eight Evil Thoughts/Seven Deadly Sins, whereas the Loyalists were more often patterned off the classic Roman Virtues. The things that brought down Horus (Hubris, Jealousy) aren't really present in Sanguinius and Guilliman who embodied traits like Courage, Dutifulness and Gravity. Sanguinius's entire purpose in the 40K story is to embody the "perfect" warrior for humanity, and thus his death provides the contrast to Horus. Guilliman, equally, exists in the story to provide that balance to Horus. To highlight the difference between a warrior motivated by pride and one motivated by duty. Horus was interested in his own advancement and accomplishments, whereas Guilliman saw his advancements and accomplishments in terms of what they could do for Humanity and the Emperor. Guilliman lacked that internal self-doubt that made Horus vulnerable.
Lorgar, without Lorgar no Erebus, no intervention that spread the primarchs, no crazy Angron, no crazy Kurze, no moody Mortarion , just one big happy bunch and probably the 2th and 11th primarch would be alive.
Magnus on the throne, Empi and Hori going through the warp slaughtering all alien life and then the Necron Heresy starts with all eldar exterminated or passed into unknown parts, even the Empi doesn't know how to activate the ancient weapons left behind to fight the necrons, also depleted from a costly war against the Necrons, the Tyranid invasion hits fully as the orks that delayed the tyranid invasion in the current timeline are all dead.
Happyjew wrote: I voted for Rogal Dorn. Without Dorn, I think the final battle might have gone much different, leading to a possible victory for Horus.
I voted for Dorn as well. He's a totally redundant ass-kisser with no tactical or strategic sense - worthless.
... someone else could have gotten the Anatheme, though, and done the same thing after their Legion suffered an embarrassment similar to Lorgar's, and Magnus, Angron, and Curze are all primarchs that could have easily been in Lorgar's place.
Given how many other options Chaos had, I think taking Lorgar out of the picture changes little.
I highly doubt Curse would ever be in Lorgar's place, seeing as how most of his legion still dispises those who are a little to "in" with the chaos gods.
... someone else could have gotten the Anatheme, though, and done the same thing after their Legion suffered an embarrassment similar to Lorgar's, and Magnus, Angron, and Curze are all primarchs that could have easily been in Lorgar's place.Given how many other options Chaos had, I think taking Lorgar out of the picture changes little.
I highly doubt Curse would ever be in Lorgar's place, seeing as how most of his legion still dispises those who are a little to "in" with the chaos gods.
The Night Lords can despise chaos all they want, but it will not change the fact that the gratest concentration of Night Lords at the time of 40K swear fealty to Krieg Acerbus, a powerfull NL daemon prince.
NL are just as "tainted" as the other traitor legions.
I'm just saying the idea of Curze being the impetus for a Heresy is unlikely. He lacks the subtlety for it that Lorgar did, and nobody would have followed him because he lacked the respect of the other Primarchs. The setup for the Heresy was a lot more involved than "Stab Horus, wait for lolz".
I mean, the very fact that you believe Guilliman or Sanguinius were corruptible exposes a flaw in your thinking. Both of those characters lack the specific character flaws Horus did that made him vulnerable. We know because Horus tried to convert Sanguinius and failed, and Horus acknowledged right off the bat he wouldn't be able to convince Guilliman.
The primarchs who fell embodied many of the Eight Evil Thoughts/Seven Deadly Sins, whereas the Loyalists were more often patterned off the classic Roman Virtues. The things that brought down Horus (Hubris, Jealousy) aren't really present in Sanguinius and Guilliman who embodied traits like Courage, Dutifulness and Gravity. Sanguinius's entire purpose in the 40K story is to embody the "perfect" warrior for humanity, and thus his death provides the contrast to Horus. Guilliman, equally, exists in the story to provide that balance to Horus. To highlight the difference between a warrior motivated by pride and one motivated by duty. Horus was interested in his own advancement and accomplishments, whereas Guilliman saw his advancements and accomplishments in terms of what they could do for Humanity and the Emperor. Guilliman lacked that internal self-doubt that made Horus vulnerable.
Horus was corrupted as a result of a ritual, not simply because he was magically corruptible. The same could have happened to Sang or Girlyman.
I'm just saying the idea of Curze being the impetus for a Heresy is unlikely. He lacks the subtlety for it that Lorgar did, and nobody would have followed him because he lacked the respect of the other Primarchs. The setup for the Heresy was a lot more involved than "Stab Horus, wait for lolz".
I mean, the very fact that you believe Guilliman or Sanguinius were corruptible exposes a flaw in your thinking. Both of those characters lack the specific character flaws Horus did that made him vulnerable. We know because Horus tried to convert Sanguinius and failed, and Horus acknowledged right off the bat he wouldn't be able to convince Guilliman.
The primarchs who fell embodied many of the Eight Evil Thoughts/Seven Deadly Sins, whereas the Loyalists were more often patterned off the classic Roman Virtues. The things that brought down Horus (Hubris, Jealousy) aren't really present in Sanguinius and Guilliman who embodied traits like Courage, Dutifulness and Gravity. Sanguinius's entire purpose in the 40K story is to embody the "perfect" warrior for humanity, and thus his death provides the contrast to Horus. Guilliman, equally, exists in the story to provide that balance to Horus. To highlight the difference between a warrior motivated by pride and one motivated by duty. Horus was interested in his own advancement and accomplishments, whereas Guilliman saw his advancements and accomplishments in terms of what they could do for Humanity and the Emperor. Guilliman lacked that internal self-doubt that made Horus vulnerable.
Horus was corrupted as a result of a ritual, not simply because he was magically corruptible. The same could have happened to Sang or Girlyman.
No. He made a choice to listen to Erebus (even though he'd been lied to the entire time about who was talking to him, he still went ahead and trusted him...) it was entirely because he was corruptible. He was ambitious and jealous. I cannot see Guilliman or Sanguinius trusting someone who they know was lying to them about something like their father being evil, let alone Erebus.
I'm just saying the idea of Curze being the impetus for a Heresy is unlikely. He lacks the subtlety for it that Lorgar did, and nobody would have followed him because he lacked the respect of the other Primarchs. The setup for the Heresy was a lot more involved than "Stab Horus, wait for lolz".
I mean, the very fact that you believe Guilliman or Sanguinius were corruptible exposes a flaw in your thinking. Both of those characters lack the specific character flaws Horus did that made him vulnerable. We know because Horus tried to convert Sanguinius and failed, and Horus acknowledged right off the bat he wouldn't be able to convince Guilliman.
The primarchs who fell embodied many of the Eight Evil Thoughts/Seven Deadly Sins, whereas the Loyalists were more often patterned off the classic Roman Virtues. The things that brought down Horus (Hubris, Jealousy) aren't really present in Sanguinius and Guilliman who embodied traits like Courage, Dutifulness and Gravity. Sanguinius's entire purpose in the 40K story is to embody the "perfect" warrior for humanity, and thus his death provides the contrast to Horus. Guilliman, equally, exists in the story to provide that balance to Horus. To highlight the difference between a warrior motivated by pride and one motivated by duty. Horus was interested in his own advancement and accomplishments, whereas Guilliman saw his advancements and accomplishments in terms of what they could do for Humanity and the Emperor. Guilliman lacked that internal self-doubt that made Horus vulnerable.
Horus was corrupted as a result of a ritual, not simply because he was magically corruptible. The same could have happened to Sang or Girlyman.
No. He made a choice to listen to Erebus (even though he'd been lied to the entire time about who was talking to him, he still went ahead and trusted him...) it was entirely because he was corruptible. He was ambitious and jealous. I cannot see Guilliman or Sanguinius trusting someone who they know was lying to them about something like their father being evil, let alone Erebus.
Gulliman has a lot of faith in the Emperor, to a point where he actually belives the primarchs being scattered was intentional
... someone else could have gotten the Anatheme, though, and done the same thing after their Legion suffered an embarrassment similar to Lorgar's, and Magnus, Angron, and Curze are all primarchs that could have easily been in Lorgar's place.Given how many other options Chaos had, I think taking Lorgar out of the picture changes little.
I highly doubt Curse would ever be in Lorgar's place, seeing as how most of his legion still dispises those who are a little to "in" with the chaos gods.
The Night Lords can despise chaos all they want, but it will not change the fact that the gratest concentration of Night Lords at the time of 40K swear fealty to Krieg Acerbus, a powerfull NL daemon prince.
NL are just as "tainted" as the other traitor legions.
FINALLY, somebody else notices that the Night Lords are about as non-chaotic as the Iron Warriors. The only difference between the Night Lords and the rest of the Legions is that the Night Lords don't really worship the Chaos Gods, and instead take the Black Legion route.
But Night Lords were corrupted even during their Horus Heresy. Their palace was made of living humans stitched together Dark Eldar style, sustained through some combination of technology and chaos magicks. Plus then there's the Raptor Cults, which eventually mutate into actual daemons (Warp Talons).
Well, I for one never claimed they are not or were not already corrupted. Just that they do not worship or condone worship of the big 4. I, and every other Night Lords fan with any sense, know that they are as chaos as the next legion, but unlike the Word Bearers they did not actively seek out the chaos gods, nor do they try to please them. Also, I don't think you need to directly worship any of them to become a demon prince. And serving one does not make you a chaos worshiper. It seems like some people out there want every chaos legion to be Word Bearers or Death Guard. You can be Chaos-ish and not be a worshiper or follower of the chaos gods. All I said is that Curze would not be in Lorgar's place. I don't think anyone but Lorgar would be.
I'm just saying the idea of Curze being the impetus for a Heresy is unlikely. He lacks the subtlety for it that Lorgar did, and nobody would have followed him because he lacked the respect of the other Primarchs. The setup for the Heresy was a lot more involved than "Stab Horus, wait for lolz".
I mean, the very fact that you believe Guilliman or Sanguinius were corruptible exposes a flaw in your thinking. Both of those characters lack the specific character flaws Horus did that made him vulnerable. We know because Horus tried to convert Sanguinius and failed, and Horus acknowledged right off the bat he wouldn't be able to convince Guilliman.
The primarchs who fell embodied many of the Eight Evil Thoughts/Seven Deadly Sins, whereas the Loyalists were more often patterned off the classic Roman Virtues. The things that brought down Horus (Hubris, Jealousy) aren't really present in Sanguinius and Guilliman who embodied traits like Courage, Dutifulness and Gravity. Sanguinius's entire purpose in the 40K story is to embody the "perfect" warrior for humanity, and thus his death provides the contrast to Horus. Guilliman, equally, exists in the story to provide that balance to Horus. To highlight the difference between a warrior motivated by pride and one motivated by duty. Horus was interested in his own advancement and accomplishments, whereas Guilliman saw his advancements and accomplishments in terms of what they could do for Humanity and the Emperor. Guilliman lacked that internal self-doubt that made Horus vulnerable.
Horus was corrupted as a result of a ritual, not simply because he was magically corruptible. The same could have happened to Sang or Girlyman.
No. He made a choice to listen to Erebus (even though he'd been lied to the entire time about who was talking to him, he still went ahead and trusted him...) it was entirely because he was corruptible. He was ambitious and jealous. I cannot see Guilliman or Sanguinius trusting someone who they know was lying to them about something like their father being evil, let alone Erebus.
Gulliman has a lot of faith in the Emperor, to a point where he actually belives the primarchs being scattered was intentional
All Primarchs had their weaknesses and/or fears. The ritual that corrupted Horus was tailor-made to play on his. It wouldn't have corrupted most others, but that doesn't mean others were incorruptible.
For example, how do you think the honorable Guilliman would have reacted when, in Horus' situation he was exposed to a vision like this:
- The whole story of the Thunder Warriors, including them being exterminated when their usefulness came to an end.
- Pointing out that the Emperor has secluded himself to do work he hides from the Primarchs and how the Empire is now being led by civilians, then hinting that he was preparing for the next generation of soldiers and that marines were soon to suffer the Thunder Warriors' fate.
-Hint that the Emperor was deliberately fostering enimity among the Lwgions (stuff like allowing Lorgar tens of ywars off the leash until he reached the point where he 'had to' hqve his whole legion publicly humiliated, constantly preferring Dorn over Perturabo etc.) so that they could destroy each other when the time was right.
- End with some possible future Marine-on-Marine action, like the scouring of Prospero or Istvaan V.
LordBlades wrote: All Primarchs had their weaknesses and/or fears. The ritual that corrupted Horus was tailor-made to play on his. It wouldn't have corrupted most others, but that doesn't mean others were incorruptible.
For example, how do you think the honorable Guilliman would have reacted when, in Horus' situation he was exposed to a vision like this:
- The whole story of the Thunder Warriors, including them being exterminated when their usefulness came to an end.
- Pointing out that the Emperor has secluded himself to do work he hides from the Primarchs and how the Empire is now being led by civilians, then hinting that he was preparing for the next generation of soldiers and that marines were soon to suffer the Thunder Warriors' fate.
-Hint that the Emperor was deliberately fostering enimity among the Lwgions (stuff like allowing Lorgar tens of ywars off the leash until he reached the point where he 'had to' hqve his whole legion publicly humiliated, constantly preferring Dorn over Perturabo etc.) so that they could destroy each other when the time was right.
- End with some possible future Marine-on-Marine action, like the scouring of Prospero or Istvaan V.
Oooh, that would actually be really interesting to see! It's too bad that most of traitor Primarchs were too corruptible or were already messed up before being exposed to Chaos, it makes the whole thing much less tragic and interesting (Fulgrim, Angron, and Curze, unlike Magnus and Lorgar, whose falls are more tragic and gradual)
All Primarchs had their weaknesses and/or fears. The ritual that corrupted Horus was tailor-made to play on his. It wouldn't have corrupted most others, but that doesn't mean others were incorruptible.
For example, how do you think the honorable Guilliman would have reacted when, in Horus' situation he was exposed to a vision like this:
- The whole story of the Thunder Warriors, including them being exterminated when their usefulness came to an end.
- Pointing out that the Emperor has secluded himself to do work he hides from the Primarchs and how the Empire is now being led by civilians, then hinting that he was preparing for the next generation of soldiers and that marines were soon to suffer the Thunder Warriors' fate.
-Hint that the Emperor was deliberately fostering enimity among the Lwgions (stuff like allowing Lorgar tens of ywars off the leash until he reached the point where he 'had to' hqve his whole legion publicly humiliated, constantly preferring Dorn over Perturabo etc.) so that they could destroy each other when the time was right.
- End with some possible future Marine-on-Marine action, like the scouring of Prospero or Istvaan V.
Guilliman probably would have been less believing of what Erebus (or whoever) was saying. I mean no proof is actually provided.
"What I am showing you is the future!"
"How do I know you're telling the truth?"
"Because I, a Space Marine from one of the least respected Legions, am more trustworthy than your creator who you view as a father!
Doesn't Magnus even contradict Erebus? Who would you trust more? Your brother or some random Marine from another Legion? Besides that, Guilliman would be far more likely to talk to the Emperor (or other Primarchs) about it before tearing the Imperium apart in a civil war. The manner in which Horus was corrupted doesn't make much sense.
If time-travel is possible then the future is presumably pre-destined. I.e. if you go back in time and do nothing events will unfold in exactly the same way as before. So I could possibly justify killing Lorgar (which would probably have had the greatest effect on preventing a widespread Heresy).
Erebus did show him the actual future, though. The statues of Horus, Perturabo, Mortarion, Fulgrim, Magnus, Cruze, Angron, Alpharius, and Lorgar were all missing from the Palace of Terra, and the Emperor is worshiped as a god. The vision just didn't explain why.
MasterSlowPoke wrote: Erebus did show him the actual future, though. The statues of Horus, Perturabo, Mortarion, Fulgrim, Magnus, Cruze, Angron, Alpharius, and Lorgar were all missing from the Palace of Terra, and the Emperor is worshiped as a god. The vision just didn't explain why.
Yes, he did. But Horus was entirely too trusting that it was the truth, with no evidence, after he'd already been lied to. Just because it happened to be the truth doesn't make Horus' blind following of it any more reasonable. Least of all from Erebus.
I believe chaos would very likely seduce Horus no matter which primarch theoretically gets killed on Terra. When you are in such a high position with that much doubt of everything around you, it won't be hard at all.
That being said, I voted for Lorgar. He had early influence over the chaos cults before the Dropsite Massacre happened. Without him, the cults would have probably had a weak start. And the Ultramarines might not have been tied down at the Five Hundred Worlds by two traitor legions and a warpstorm.
Lord Blackscale wrote: Well, I for one never claimed they are not or were not already corrupted. Just that they do not worship or condone worship of the big 4. I, and every other Night Lords fan with any sense, know that they are as chaos as the next legion, but unlike the Word Bearers they did not actively seek out the chaos gods, nor do they try to please them. Also, I don't think you need to directly worship any of them to become a demon prince. And serving one does not make you a chaos worshiper. It seems like some people out there want every chaos legion to be Word Bearers or Death Guard. You can be Chaos-ish and not be a worshiper or follower of the chaos gods. All I said is that Curze would not be in Lorgar's place. I don't think anyone but Lorgar would be.
The Emperor was PISSED about how the Night Lords acted during the Great Crusade. Curze was about to be reprimanded when Istvaan III broke out.
So... insane Curze, convinced the Emperor is a hypocrite, is chewed out and smacked down by the Emperor in person and he... takes it and changes his ways? Are you kidding me?
If time-travel is possible then the future is presumably pre-destined. I.e. if you go back in time and do nothing events will unfold in exactly the same way as before. So I could possibly justify killing Lorgar (which would probably have had the greatest effect on preventing a widespread Heresy).
Just throwing this out there... the Heresy that eventually happens could succeed. The Chaos Gods aren't going to roll over and do nothing. They're going to look for openings, which will come from the other Primarchs eventually. Magnus has been shown to take candy from strangers when he smashed his way to tell the Emperor about the heresy. Russ was manipulated by Horus easily enough. Angron was crazy. Curze thought the Emperor was a hypocrite. There's no lack of Primarchs that *could* be corrupted in the right circumstances. The vision proposed to turn Girlyman could have easily worked on Russ as well.
Lord Blackscale wrote: Well, I for one never claimed they are not or were not already corrupted. Just that they do not worship or condone worship of the big 4. I, and every other Night Lords fan with any sense, know that they are as chaos as the next legion, but unlike the Word Bearers they did not actively seek out the chaos gods, nor do they try to please them. Also, I don't think you need to directly worship any of them to become a demon prince. And serving one does not make you a chaos worshiper. It seems like some people out there want every chaos legion to be Word Bearers or Death Guard. You can be Chaos-ish and not be a worshiper or follower of the chaos gods. All I said is that Curze would not be in Lorgar's place. I don't think anyone but Lorgar would be.
The Emperor was PISSED about how the Night Lords acted during the Great Crusade. Curze was about to be reprimanded when Istvaan III broke out.
So... insane Curze, convinced the Emperor is a hypocrite, is chewed out and smacked down by the Emperor in person and he... takes it and changes his ways? Are you kidding me?
No ones saying that Curze would change his ways. Just that Curze wouldn't have the subtlety to turn the other Primarchs, and who the hell would follow Curze anyway?
Also isn't it Angron who's whole thing is the Emperor is a hypocrite? And Mortarion. I've never got the impression that Cirze and Empy get on but I dunno where he says about the Emperor being a hypocrite. Could've missed it though.
Kerrathyr wrote: Without Lorgar, Erebus probably wouldn't be a chaplain/marine, just a religious zealot on a planet, who would not accept the Imperial Truth. Hence, he would have been taken diwn in order to obtain the compliance of said planet.
That's my thinking too. Plus with a loyal Word Bearer legion that means that the rebels;
a) Do not have access to the second most numerous of the Legions
b) Monarchia's devastation never takes place. Because of that the emnity between the Ultramarines and the Word Bearers never develops. This means that the most numerous Legion, Ultramarines, are not tied up during the events of the Shadow Crusade
c) The Lodges would not exist as they did, thus making it harder for any rebels to meet clandestinely
d) The Blood Angels would not be diverted to Signus Prime and distracted from the unfolding events
e) No deamon Angron
f) Significantly weaker rebels mean that the Cabal do not have a way in with the Alpha Legion
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EmpNortonII wrote: So... insane Curze, convinced the Emperor is a hypocrite, is chewed out and smacked down by the Emperor in person and he... takes it and changes his ways? Are you kidding me?
He does change his ways; he goes from Primarch of the VIII Legion to joining the Lost Primarchs
Lord Blackscale wrote: Well, I for one never claimed they are not or were not already corrupted. Just that they do not worship or condone worship of the big 4. I, and every other Night Lords fan with any sense, know that they are as chaos as the next legion, but unlike the Word Bearers they did not actively seek out the chaos gods, nor do they try to please them. Also, I don't think you need to directly worship any of them to become a demon prince. And serving one does not make you a chaos worshiper. It seems like some people out there want every chaos legion to be Word Bearers or Death Guard. You can be Chaos-ish and not be a worshiper or follower of the chaos gods. All I said is that Curze would not be in Lorgar's place. I don't think anyone but Lorgar would be.
The Emperor was PISSED about how the Night Lords acted during the Great Crusade. Curze was about to be reprimanded when Istvaan III broke out.
So... insane Curze, convinced the Emperor is a hypocrite, is chewed out and smacked down by the Emperor in person and he... takes it and changes his ways? Are you kidding me?
No ones saying that Curze would change his ways. Just that Curze wouldn't have the subtlety to turn the other Primarchs, and who the hell would follow Curze anyway?
Also isn't it Angron who's whole thing is the Emperor is a hypocrite? And Mortarion. I've never got the impression that Cirze and Empy get on but I dunno where he says about the Emperor being a hypocrite. Could've missed it though.
The way I see it, the worst that would happen is Curze would ignore Daddy's summons and force a confrontation, probably with the still loyal Sons of Horus. Curze would die, still feeling vindicated, and his legion would be absorbed by Horus. Not really getting the Curze hatred, and not sure how you interpreted my words the way you did, but take a chill pill dude. And Curze proved twice that he didn't have the ability to turn other Primarchs to his cause, just ask Lion-o and Vulkan.
Lord Blackscale wrote: Well, I for one never claimed they are not or were not already corrupted. Just that they do not worship or condone worship of the big 4. I, and every other Night Lords fan with any sense, know that they are as chaos as the next legion, but unlike the Word Bearers they did not actively seek out the chaos gods, nor do they try to please them. Also, I don't think you need to directly worship any of them to become a demon prince. And serving one does not make you a chaos worshiper. It seems like some people out there want every chaos legion to be Word Bearers or Death Guard. You can be Chaos-ish and not be a worshiper or follower of the chaos gods. All I said is that Curze would not be in Lorgar's place. I don't think anyone but Lorgar would be.
The Emperor was PISSED about how the Night Lords acted during the Great Crusade. Curze was about to be reprimanded when Istvaan III broke out.
So... insane Curze, convinced the Emperor is a hypocrite, is chewed out and smacked down by the Emperor in person and he... takes it and changes his ways? Are you kidding me?
No ones saying that Curze would change his ways. Just that Curze wouldn't have the subtlety to turn the other Primarchs, and who the hell would follow Curze anyway?
Exactly. It is irrelevant what happens to Curze when taken into custody. He either changes his ways, or he's put down like Primarcsh 2 and 11.
The Curzus Heresy would be a one man show, and very short, lol.
We actually already know what happens. Curze already told us.... but mostly he told Fulgrim.
Without Lorgar's intervention (by starting the Horus Heresy), Curze would be taken before the Emperor and killed. AFTER that, Primarchs would die and Astartes would kill each other.
So, let me paint a picture, if you will. Curze is taken before the Emperor to account for his actions in the Great Crusade. Konrad calls the Emperor a coward... and by virtue of his prophetic visions, recounts to his brothers the tale of what happened to the Thunder Warriors. The Emperor then judges Curze guilty and kills him, as forseen.
Some Primarchs have faith in the Emperor, and some dig for information. The most likely to find information is obviously Magnus, because Magnus is fething brilliant and willing to listen to the Lord of Change that conveniently showed up to tempt him in the alternate universe when he broke the Emperor's path to the Webway.
Some Primarchs, like Dorn, would be dumb enough and trusting enough to go along with the Emperor, even though the fate of the Space Marines would likely be the same as the Thunder Warriors. Mortarion, Horus, Angron, Alpharius, and Perturabo would not. Fulgrim's lost to the daemon blade, and serves as Chaos's chance to infect the Heresy, rather than having a secular rebellion.
To his credit, I think Guilliman would side with the rebels. I think learning the fate of the Thunder Warriors would destroy his faith in the Emperor. THAT is what would make the Curze Heresy victorious when the Horus Heresy failed.
Logar is the obvious choice, without him the Horus Heresy would have never happened. Horus and Erebus are sort of meh, Erebus probably wouldn't have had enough sway without Logar and Horus would have never fallen to Chaos. Horus is definitely a good choice too though, because if Horus was dead then the Emperor wouldn't hesitate because he wouldn't have fought his favored son and would have survived.
Killing Lorgar would only delay the Ruinous Power's plans to corrupt another Primarch to their ends, and though they may concoct another plan- the lack of Horus as the Warmaster greatly changes the way things would turn out.
And Lorgar's corruption is easily dealt with if events with Erebus play out the same way- Loose the Wolves upon him.
Mecha-Streisand wrote: Horus is definitely a good choice too though, because if Horus was dead then the Emperor wouldn't hesitate because he wouldn't have fought his favored son and would have survived.
It's worth noting that Horus' confrontation with the Emperor was a desperate act, one last attempt to win before the arrival of the rest of the loyalists spelled unavoidable defeat.
Another leader of the Heresy might have very well won or lost before it came to that moment.
If not Lorgar and Erebus, it would have been someone else. Same with Horus. Chaos would have found a way.
I vote for the Fulgrim Heresy: bewbs and loud music for all!
Actual vote for aborting goes to Logan. The scruffy mutt didn't need much convincing to take down Magnus, and helped the Heresy quite a bit. Plus I hate him and his furries.
Mecha-Streisand wrote: Horus is definitely a good choice too though, because if Horus was dead then the Emperor wouldn't hesitate because he wouldn't have fought his favored son and would have survived.
It's worth noting that Horus' confrontation with the Emperor was a desperate act, one last attempt to win before the arrival of the rest of the loyalists spelled unavoidable defeat.
Another leader of the Heresy might have very well won or lost before it came to that moment.
I guess.
Depends on which version of the Heresy we go with, lol.
The "ending" to the Heresy has been alternately described as "We don't know why" to "Space Wolves and Dark Angels were coming" to "Horus was drawing the Emprah into a trap" to explain why/how the Emperor got aboard Horus's ship.
So until The Black Library ends this series sometime in 2022 with the Battle of Terra novel, we won't know what the current timeline suggests.
Happyjew wrote: I voted for Rogal Dorn. Without Dorn, I think the final battle might have gone much different, leading to a possible victory for Horus.
I voted for Dorn as well. He's a totally redundant ass-kisser with no tactical or strategic sense - worthless.
Funnily enough, I'd do it too. Dorn is utterly worthless, he managed to lose every single battle of Heresy he touched, even one he wasn't present in (Phall) after Pollux nearly won it. He couldn't retake Mars despite besieging it for years and also nearly started second Heresy as HH ended. Kill Dorn, and Perturabo is chosen to do the Palace instead, keeping him loyal (and Imperium needs scientist legion much more than masochist bootlickers). Horus won't even get close to Terra without a guy who did most of the work and breached all fortresses in the way to it. You also get rid of annoying Black Templars, win-win
Yay! We just revived a dead thread from 6 years ago!
Anyways, the obvious choices are Lorgar and Magnus. Lorgar is a good choice because he is so instrumental in bringing about the Horus Heresy (though without Lorgar, Chaos may have found other ways).
But Magnus is the best choice because he did more damage to the Emperor's plans than all other traitor Primarchs combined. Without Magnus, the Emperor's Webway Project would have succeeded and the Emperor and the Adeptus Custodes would have been available to put a swift end to Horus' little insurrection instead of trying to prevent the end of times in the Webway.
Killing Magnus before he ruins the Webway project is the only certain way to prevent the Emperor from ending up on the Golden Throne.
