Yeah, hats off for stalling a rich background with incredible potential for 30 years behore annihilating everything in six months. Development? What's the meaning of that?
That is actually pretty cool. It has a bit of a 'not a bang but a whimper' about it being done so quickly (although I guess the rest of the book expands on it more), but it's refreshing to see an End of the World situation where
Spoiler:
the World actually Ends!
And stays ended, at least in its current form. Perhaps I've just watched too much Dr Who, but I've grown tired of the "just reboot the universe' button cop-out So while we all know it's coming back in some form, the settting will be completely different, which is cool. You can still play 'historicals' with your current armies and rules, and now there's a whole new setting opening up!
What if the old world is destroyed, but this mysterious figure, Sigmar Ascended likely, has managed to create a new world out of the shattered remains of the old. Every faction's survivors find themselves dropped on a new world. Here and there, pockets of the old world have been plopped down.
Every faction survives in one form or another. All scattered in different locations across the world. Cities of humans and Dwarf holds in many different places, but being unaware anyone else survived as they rebuild in this new world. Athel Loren and chunks of Ulthuan and Naggaroth have survived as well. Cathey may also make an appearance. The lizard floating temples reappear in the skies and set down in unfamiliar jungles.
Chaos is much diminished, although daemonic incursions still occur occasionally and the favor of the gods still is bestowed on mortal followers.
As the years pass, new tales and heroes arise to stand aside the legends of heroes of old. The new world is explored, maybe some new races are discovered, occasionally explorers find ruins of the old world and pockets of other survivors.
Oh good, I just get into the game to find out that it ends, haha. I am sure plenty of people are going to keep on playing 8th whatever new form of WFB pops out. I keep hearing rumors that it's going to be a skirmish style game......they just need to bring Mordheim back to life again.
Oh good, I just get into the game to find out that it ends, haha.
LOL Ouch!
Spoiler:
Could the guy falling through space be the Elf that went through the portal the elf girl created in Book 3? didnt she state that he was the only chance to recreate the cycle of the old world again?
It says that there is A new beginning that does not mean were going to get warhammer back, just that something is coming dragged from the corpse of warhammer.
It may be warhammermachine, it may be boltaction fantasy edition or it could just be a horrible mishmash of ideas that gw think will make them money stitched together like frakensteins monster.
Who knows at this point, but I think it is safe to say warhammer as it was know from a fluff perspective is dead.
What if the old world is destroyed, but this mysterious figure, Sigmar Ascended likely, has managed to create a new world out of the shattered remains of the old. Every faction's survivors find themselves dropped on a new world. Here and there, pockets of the old world have been plopped down.
Every faction survives in one form or another. All scattered in different locations across the world. Cities of humans and Dwarf holds in many different places, but being unaware anyone else survived as they rebuild in this new world. Athel Loren and chunks of Ulthuan and Naggaroth have survived as well. Cathey may also make an appearance. The lizard floating temples reappear in the skies and set down in unfamiliar jungles.
Chaos is much diminished, although daemonic incursions still occur occasionally and the favor of the gods still is bestowed on mortal followers.
As the years pass, new tales and heroes arise to stand aside the legends of heroes of old. The new world is explored, maybe some new races are discovered, occasionally explorers find ruins of the old world and pockets of other survivors.
See, this I would like. I'm not expecting something like this, but it's filled with potential for expansion and storytelling! That would be fun.
Hyper venomous Sea Snakes are too OP!
You know who really will be the most OP? Spitting cobras. They got the only ranged weapons in Snakehammer!
Oh good, I just get into the game to find out that it ends, haha.
LOL Ouch!
Spoiler:
Could the guy falling through space be the Elf that went through the portal the elf girl created in Book 3? didnt she state that he was the only chance to recreate the cycle of the old world again?
Sorry my WHFB fluff history is weak.
I'm spitballing here that "the man"(an Elf would have been referred to as "the mortal") who essentially stopped the destruction is Sigmar Ascendant(we've seen what the power of faith does in the Warhammer universe after all), and Araloth(who is supposed to play the role of Asuryan, the Creator hence why Lileath saved him) will somehow "rebuild" the world from the wreckage that Sigmar saved.
Well. I'm done. I've been part of this game since I was a young boy. Been into warhammer as a concept since I was 6 and sat with my brother and his friends as they ran their WFRP campaigns. But, now, it's time to call it quits. I'm shelving all my warhammer as I don't want to be part of the community that supports any of the End Times releases.
Warhammer FB ending or entire armies getting completely squatted are just rumours and based on nothing. I don't think the radical stuff people are clamoring about is going to happen even by a longshot. Dwarves completely removed? Give me a break, not gonna happen. Just your usual rumour mill.
Eh I'm just going to wait for it to get retconned in a couple of months with Grimgor kicking the Chaos Gods in the back of the head then deciding to not kill them for some reason.
Awesome. Fluff reboot. Out with the old, in with the new.
Note that there is NOTHING on that page that need affect the game itself. Considering how much they've farmed out their IP of late (Warhammer Tactics, Bloodbowl 2, Warhammer: Total War, Vermintide) there is no chance that they're scrapping the IP altogether. Just rebooting it to give them some more leeway to create novel and interesting IP that isn't the generic tolkien ripoff that the old world comes across as to newcomers.
RunicFIN wrote:Warhammer FB ending or entire armies getting completely squatted are just rumours and based on nothing. I don't think the radical stuff people are clamoring about is going to happen even by a longshot. Dwarves completely removed? Give me a break, not gonna happen. Just your usual rumour mill.
Why? Because it's something you don't like? Because you can't imagine GW doing something that could possibly alienate it's customers? That could possibly alienate you? I imagine GW alienating Dakka's arch-apologist could be difficult; but some of us have already been through that process, and don't find it as incomprehensible. Dumping capricious, disruptive changes and dumping on existing fans is what GWdoes. This 'un, backed up by a couple of the most reliable rumour sources, just might be a wee bit bigger than the others.
Sigvatr wrote:Really? That is the worst writing I have seen in a LONG time. What the heck?
"He stared into the void and the void looked back."
Was this written by an angsty teenager?
Vermis wrote:Cribbing Nietzsche doesn't improve it.
SilverDevilfish wrote:Eh I'm just going to wait for it to get retconned in a couple of months with Grimgor kicking the Chaos Gods in the back of the head then deciding to not kill them for some reason.
Best reason I've heard why GWwon't make the changes, so far.
Vermis wrote: Why? Because it's something you don't like? Because you can't imagine GW doing something that could possibly alienate it's customers? That could possibly alienate you? I imagine GW alienating Dakka's arch-apologist could be difficult; but some of us have already been through that process, and don't find it as incomprehensible. Dumping capricious, disruptive changes and dumping on existing fans is what GWdoes. This 'un, backed up by a couple of the most reliable rumour sources, just might be a wee bit bigger than the others.
I guess apologist and realist are synonyms to you. Most of my views are based on how things are in reality. If that seems like apologist action to you, it means your view on reality is skewed, as you perceive reality as something else. You could be one of those who thinks GW doesn't actually do any market research whatsoever ( in essence on a concretical level meaning that their whole organization, made of people, is completely oblivious to competitors and their products while majority of their designers are wargamers themselves, making the whole idea ridiculous at best ) just because one person has written so in a document which is, infact, basically a propaganda letter for investors in the world of business.
As an example, for you it might seem apologetic for someone to not blindly believe said meaningless propaganda letter directed at investors, written by one person for the sole purpose of enforcing the investors belief in the companys supposed overwhelming success. To anyone with common sense, it's just that and nothing more: just an official statement written in order to achieve the trust of said investors, not even remotely meaning that in reality the company chooses to be oblivious about it's competition. That, is reality. Read more chairmans preambles from companies across the world if you doubt the nature of said document. Read atleast 50 ( which is easily how many I have read over the years ) and you -will- realize what I said is true unless you are in denial, inwhich case discussing the matter with you is moot to beginwith.
In any case, we shall see, won't we. If they completely remove armies from the game you were right. I'll see you in 8 months when dwarves are still around, ready with some humble pie, I'm fairly certain. Not 100%, I'd say 98%.
Has nothing to do with what I like, it's just too ridicilous a thing for a publicly traded company to do to one of their main product lines at this scale ( and with this I mean exactly that, Squats were squatted back when GW was but a fraction of what it is now in size. ) Next to that, I can easily imagine GW doing things that alienate their customers, but I can't imagine armies/races like dwarves being removed, as in deleted.
Having seen the rules leaked for Archaon, it's clear that GW don't know jack about running a game.
Removing ALL restrictions on points and duplications so that an army of pure steam tanks is legal.
Or 2400 points of Dark Elf peg heroes.
Or a 2400 point army of BoTWD Dragon Princes with characters.
Let's not forget the multiple BSBs. So now we can get the Rampager's Standard, BoTWD, Ranger Standard and Wailing Banner into a unit of Dragon Princes.
RunicFIN wrote: I guess apologist and realist are synonyms to you. Most of my views are based on how things are in reality. If that seems like apologist action to you, it means your view on reality is skewed, as you perceive reality as something else.
Seven months ago, the "realists" were saying all the End Times stuff was a load of ridiculous gak made up by a spanish blogger who just wanted some attention.
Kind of shocked..Everything we know gone. All those characters from all of BL novels are dead..And likely we'll never know just how they met their fate.
ToxicBox wrote: Kind of shocked..Everything we know gone. All those characters from all of BL novels are dead..And likely we'll never know just how they met their fate.
THAT'S what gets me. 30 years of work and building and layers and.... At least with 40k they're just ignoring everything in favour of 30k. Oh how I loathe the era of reboots. Welp at least I haven't spent any money on this game in over a decade. I'd be VERY pissed, then. Back to Dark Future and converting Hot Wheels I go!
thedarkavenger wrote: Well. I'm done. I've been part of this game since I was a young boy. Been into warhammer as a concept since I was 6 and sat with my brother and his friends as they ran their WFRP campaigns. But, now, it's time to call it quits. I'm shelving all my warhammer as I don't want to be part of the community that supports any of the End Times releases.
Yep. I have about the same timeline with ya - brothers got me interesting at about the same age, and it bloomed from there. WFRP 1st edition sticks out in my mind as the real mood of warhammer fantasy.
Sad to see warhammer evolve the way it has recently. I have 6 FB (3k to 5k each) armies that I'm now more than tempted to sell.
RunicFIN wrote: I guess apologist and realist are synonyms to you. Most of my views are based on how things are in reality. If that seems like apologist action to you, it means your view on reality is skewed, as you perceive reality as something else.
Seven months ago, the "realists" were saying all the End Times stuff was a load of ridiculous gak made up by a spanish blogger who just wanted some attention.
Because why would GW ever do such a thing.
And that has nothing to do with my views which have never been such.
Everyone who's ever given any sort of support, especially financial support by purchasing their products, to GW.
I should have expected no less. The ultimate 'F-U' from them: the game that put us on the map? Yeah, we're throwing it away like yesterday's newspaper.
Well they didn't say they'd discontinue fantasy entirely. I mean even in the game before the end times there were dead characters that we played just because we could. Certainly the editions as one person said before could happen 2 minutes till destruction. We just have the ending out of the way now.
Also who knows maybe this will help to launch some new fantasy setting and maybe freshen things up. The rumor of armored 'space marine' good guys kind of bummed me out (space marines helped kill 40k for me) but who knows. Let's wait and see.
I know it's looking kind of bad but all the details don't seem to be mentioned yet. I mean i personally haven't bought any of the end times books so all i've seen so far are excerpts.
flamingkillamajig wrote: Well they didn't say they'd discontinue fantasy entirely. I mean even in the game before the end times there were dead characters that we played just because we could. Certainly the editions as one person said before could happen 2 minutes till destruction. We just have the ending out of the way now.
Also who knows maybe this will help to launch some new fantasy setting and maybe freshen things up. The rumor of armored 'space marine' good guys kind of bummed me out (space marines helped kill 40k for me) but who knows. Let's wait and see.
I know it's looking kind of bad but all the details don't seem to be mentioned yet. I mean i personally haven't bought any of the end times books so all i've seen so far are excerpts.
The rules have consistently been abortions. Khaine broke an entire aspect of a game, rendering elves capable of tabling armies in a phase.
Thanquol introduced stupid battles rolls and bent units.
This is the best thing they could have done to be honest. There is so much bathwater in with the fantasy baby they had to rationalise some of it. I don't believe for a minute that they are chucking the whole thing out, but are definitely giving themselves carte blanche to restructure the fluff to suit the game as they see fit.
One thing they must know is that 9th, and whatever supplement follows it, have to be showstoppers. They now have massive pressure to draw us all in again.
Deportivodeej wrote: This is the best thing they could have done to be honest. There is so much bathwater in with the fantasy baby they had to rationalise some of it. I don't believe for a minute that they are chucking the whole thing out, but are definitely giving themselves carte blanche to restructure the fluff to suit the game as they see fit.
One thing they must know is that 9th, and whatever supplement follows it, have to be showstoppers. They now have massive pressure to draw us all in again.
The edition could be perfect and it wouldn't be enough. GW have a precedent of wiping the slate thanks to the 5-6e transition.
I thought the ending is just as expected: If I'm not mistaken, that's what Lileath implied in End Times: Khaine. Good, so now they can completely revamp the WHFB rules and such to make it more fluffy and crunchy... Here's hoping GW doesn't up
RunicFIN wrote: I guess apologist and realist are synonyms to you. Most of my views are based on how things are in reality. If that seems like apologist action to you, it means your view on reality is skewed, as you perceive reality as something else.
Seven months ago, the "realists" were saying all the End Times stuff was a load of ridiculous gak made up by a spanish blogger who just wanted some attention.
Because why would GW ever do such a thing.
When I say apologist I mean apologist. The only skew I'd put on it is that I mean something a bit more zealous than it's more neutral original meaning. We could argue back and forth about who's the biggest realist here, and it'd only be solved by what actually happens in 9th ed. We've both got precedent on our side: both GW's penchant for - as I say - ignoring vets, discarding games and editions, shaking up WH's minor rules and mechanics (note, not improving, just shaking up); and GW's penchant for stalling and retconning background, and reluctance to shake up major rules and mechanics. But if there's a shakeup coming because of WFB's selling slump, I'm willing to bet on GW's willingness to utterly disregard their own mishandling and their existing fans (indeed, even blame their existing fans. After all, the GW Hobby™ is buying GW products, regardless of price, quality of minis or especially quality of rules, 'cos the 'collector' fanbase doesn't care about those ) and throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Although on that note...
Deportivodeej wrote: This is the best thing they could have done to be honest. There is so much bathwater in with the fantasy baby they had to rationalise some of it.
Wha... um... 'bathwater'? You mean all that rich background that people are mourning, or something else?
Sigvatr: ah, okay. Sorry.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
lcmiracle wrote: Good, so now they can completely revamp the WHFB rules and such to make it more fluffy and crunchy...
Arguably, making it more 'fluffy' and 'crunchy' with gazillions of special rules is what helped kill WFB in the first place. Maybe that kind of thing will be more appropriate in a skirmish game (depending on what's meant by 'skirmish game' - a gang, or a modern platoon's-worth or two?) rather than the titanic battle game they wanted WFB to be, but I still think they need to focus on a bit more elegance rather than speed bumps. In rules terms, to me 'crunchy' and 'gritty' means a lot of little sharp points that stab your feet and slow you down when you try to stroll over them. (and you don't see them because of all that claggy fluff you have to wade through. )
Just dragging these over from the WHFB Khorne new releases thread as I haven't seen them on here
This is from Warseer
adicto wrote:
Spoiler:
Ungrim and the dwarfs defend Avenheim thanks to Gelt’s Crucible but, in the end, they sacrifice themselves while imperials and bretonnians flee. Ungrim’s slayers fight against Zhufbar’s hosts.
Nagash offers Mannfred to the elves as a sing of good will, snaring him in a prison made of death magic.
Be’lakor frees Mannfred and tells him the truth about Lileath. He is later found by Jerrod (Be’lakor’s plan all the time) and tells him the truth about Lileath. Jerrod lets Mannfred live, who then flees and calls her. She admits the truth, saying that she is the Lady of the Lake, and also that she pushed Bretonnia out of the Stone Age and saved them from the greenskins and themselves. She says that she won’t ask for forgiveness, because the sacrifice of Bretonnia was needed to create the Haven. Then Be’lakor appears when Jerrod is about to kill her. They both fight and the demon defeats Jerrod (but does not kill him), and turns to kill Lileath, but Malekith and Tyrion pop out and trap Be’lakor.
Jerrod returns to his people and tells them about the Lady. They decide not to fight alongside the treacherous elves, returning to Bretonnia. No more is known of them.
After the fall of Averheim, the Incarnates face the daemonic host. The battle is hopeless, so Lileath sacrifices willingly to Teclis in order to give him the needed power to move them to Middenheim. A titanic battle takes place there, and the incarnates travel to the caverns located beneath the city, where Archaon, the Swords of Chaos, and the 4 greater daemons with their respective hosts are waiting. Grimgor fights Arachaon and almost defeats him, but Archaon manages to kill the orc. Then Archaon faces Sigmar, the Emperor, who after a long battle defeats him, throwing him inside a rift created by the Old Ones’ artifact that the chaos guys activated to destroy the world. The surviving Incarnates, aided by Teclis (who now holds the winds of Fire and Beasts), try to close the rift. They could have succeeded, but Mannfred betrays his master (Nagash) killing Gelt. Teclis tries to absorb the wind of Metal, but fails and dies, so the rift feeds on them and sucks out all the Incarnate’s powers. Archaon appears again, climbing out of the rift, and faces SIgmar one more time. They both are last seen fighting against each other, with Ghal-Maraz being held by Archaon as Sigmar tried to smash him. Meanwhile, Malekith saves Alarielle from being crushed by debris, and then she and Tyrion turn their backs and walk away while the Eternity King dies in pain, with his legs crushed. They both look back at the growing rift while the darkness swallows them.
Game Over.
Here is the new and "improved" Army comp we shall be getting
Spoiler:
Thanks ClockworkZion for posting these in the other thread, props to you man
I was so tempted to start fantasy, I mean so tempted that I have 300 quid sitting aside specifically for that purpose, but with these radical overhauling of the game and the 30 odd years of back story I just don't want to now, I wouldn't even know where to begin because people can now bring anything to the game that they like. Hell they are going to have to change the categories of units now, how can a rare unit be considered rare when you can have an army of them!?!
I'm gone, so closely joined in, but nah, I'm gone.
Not to be rude, but there have been rules within these books which have only applied to campaign play.
It remains to be seen whether these are intended for "normal play" or not, but given that there is very clearly a "Designer's Note" set off to the side in that top photo? It might be that it talks about certain ideas that would offset the craziness.
jreilly89 wrote: Wait, so GW did End Times and delivered by ending it, abd people are mad? What?
We're upset at the fact that they did what we all wanted; refresh the game's setting. They then ruined it with abortions dressed as rules and coat hangers in the form of pretty models, for those more inclined to decline the abortions at face value.
jreilly89 wrote: Wait, so GW did End Times and delivered by ending it, abd people are mad? What?
We're upset at the fact that they did what we all wanted; refresh the game's setting. They then ruined it with abortions dressed as rules and coat hangers in the form of pretty models, for those more inclined to decline the abortions at face value.
Is it the Unbound part? I know most just house rule that out of 40k.
jreilly89 wrote: Wait, so GW did End Times and delivered by ending it, abd people are mad? What?
We're upset at the fact that they did what we all wanted; refresh the game's setting. They then ruined it with abortions dressed as rules and coat hangers in the form of pretty models, for those more inclined to decline the abortions at face value.
I honestly ignore most of what you say but this, bravo sir bravo.
In 40k, though, Unfun and Normal games are seperated by name. Reading the leak as of now just says that all armies must use the crappy new system, thus you have to indeed house-rule army selection to 8th.
Yeah, 9th is dead. Unbound ruined 40k and now ruins WHFB. Awesome.
Ward left the company in May 2014.
Wood Elves was his last project; and even that was likely he had very little involvement as the book is pretty inconsistent with his design work.
The Wild Rider/Sisters of the Thorn and Eternal Guard/Wildwood Ranger kits have 2013 as their copyright date on the frames.
The new Wild Rider mount made its first appearance in "Orion: Tears of Isha", which released August 2013--so you're looking at least for late 2012/early 2013 for the finalized design work to be done.
Sigvatr wrote: In 40k, though, Unfun and Normal games are seperated by name. Reading the leak as of now just says that all armies must use the crappy new system, thus you have to indeed house-rule army selection to 8th.
How so? In 40k, Unbound is legal for any game, tournies house rule it out.
jreilly89 wrote: Wait, so GW did End Times and delivered by ending it, abd people are mad? What?
We're upset at the fact that they did what we all wanted; refresh the game's setting. They then ruined it with abortions dressed as rules and coat hangers in the form of pretty models, for those more inclined to decline the abortions at face value.
Is it the Unbound part? I know most just house rule that out of 40k.
No. It's the stuff like uniting three of the top tier armies so that you can get a combined army with every strength and zero downsides.
Releasing units and formations that are clearly inbalanced when compared to the rest of warhammer.
The entire End Times has been a slew of bad rules, released one book at a time.
tomball0706 wrote: Just dragging these over from the WHFB Khorne new releases thread as I haven't seen them on here
This is from Warseer
adicto wrote:
Spoiler:
Ungrim and the dwarfs defend Avenheim thanks to Gelt’s Crucible but, in the end, they sacrifice themselves while imperials and bretonnians flee. Ungrim’s slayers fight against Zhufbar’s hosts.
Nagash offers Mannfred to the elves as a sing of good will, snaring him in a prison made of death magic.
Be’lakor frees Mannfred and tells him the truth about Lileath. He is later found by Jerrod (Be’lakor’s plan all the time) and tells him the truth about Lileath. Jerrod lets Mannfred live, who then flees and calls her. She admits the truth, saying that she is the Lady of the Lake, and also that she pushed Bretonnia out of the Stone Age and saved them from the greenskins and themselves. She says that she won’t ask for forgiveness, because the sacrifice of Bretonnia was needed to create the Haven. Then Be’lakor appears when Jerrod is about to kill her. They both fight and the demon defeats Jerrod (but does not kill him), and turns to kill Lileath, but Malekith and Tyrion pop out and trap Be’lakor.
Jerrod returns to his people and tells them about the Lady. They decide not to fight alongside the treacherous elves, returning to Bretonnia. No more is known of them.
After the fall of Averheim, the Incarnates face the daemonic host. The battle is hopeless, so Lileath sacrifices willingly to Teclis in order to give him the needed power to move them to Middenheim. A titanic battle takes place there, and the incarnates travel to the caverns located beneath the city, where Archaon, the Swords of Chaos, and the 4 greater daemons with their respective hosts are waiting. Grimgor fights Arachaon and almost defeats him, but Archaon manages to kill the orc. Then Archaon faces Sigmar, the Emperor, who after a long battle defeats him, throwing him inside a rift created by the Old Ones’ artifact that the chaos guys activated to destroy the world. The surviving Incarnates, aided by Teclis (who now holds the winds of Fire and Beasts), try to close the rift. They could have succeeded, but Mannfred betrays his master (Nagash) killing Gelt. Teclis tries to absorb the wind of Metal, but fails and dies, so the rift feeds on them and sucks out all the Incarnate’s powers. Archaon appears again, climbing out of the rift, and faces SIgmar one more time. They both are last seen fighting against each other, with Ghal-Maraz being held by Archaon as Sigmar tried to smash him. Meanwhile, Malekith saves Alarielle from being crushed by debris, and then she and Tyrion turn their backs and walk away while the Eternity King dies in pain, with his legs crushed. They both look back at the growing rift while the darkness swallows them.
Game Over.
I feel like I just watched that South Park episode about the Wrestling Takedown Federation.
Wha... um... 'bathwater'? You mean all that rich background that people are mourning, or something else?
Yep, a lot of it can be rehashed for my money. There's just too much, it's too old, I'm sure the weight of it must be a burden that actually stops new fluff being as good as it could be.
Wha... um... 'bathwater'? You mean all that rich background that people are mourning, or something else?
Yep, a lot of it can be rehashed for my money. There's just too much, it's too old, I'm sure the weight of it must be a burden that actually stops new fluff being as good as it could be.
...how so? I'm genuinely curious, the background was always my favorite part and I tended to like the older stuff more. What would you have changed?
Wha... um... 'bathwater'? You mean all that rich background that people are mourning, or something else?
Yep, a lot of it can be rehashed for my money. There's just too much, it's too old, I'm sure the weight of it must be a burden that actually stops new fluff being as good as it could be.
...how so? I'm genuinely curious, the background was always my favorite part and I tended to like the older stuff more. What would you have changed?
The background has been exactly the fething same for decades now. It's not as though an end of new content for that world invalidates your enjoyment of it. You can continue to love it in exactly the same static, unchanging state it's been in since the beginning. Just now that story has a nice, clean (and comparably well-written) ending to it, and the rest of us can go about enjoying NEW fluff. I for one am excited to see a world where the conflict isn't entirely driven by the clock being stuck at 2 minutes to midnight for all of eternity.
30 years of fluff straight in the bin with a total anticlimax. Once upon a time the forces of Chaos were about to devour the world. So they did. The end.
I think we might disagree on the "well-written" part.
And don't mistake me, I would have liked to see things change, but...y'know. Not wiped away. Add to the story, don't end it. I never saw the Warhammer world as stuck at two minutes to midnight, unlike 40k - the apocalypse happened in sixth and seventh edition, Archaon turned up and wrecked most of the northern empire, and the cool part was that people picked up their lives afterward and got on with them. Things were more dangerous, cities were in ruin, warbands of beastmen and greenskins were lurking in the forests, and the Empire nearly underwent a religious schism, but it was still recognizable as the same world. More of that, please!
I know that I'm not changing anything by grumbling over the internet, just getting my opinion out there. I fully intend to still appreciate the setting I love, but it's disappointing that it isn't the official one any more and I won't be getting excited over...I don't know, a campaign focused on the Dark Lands or miniature releases specifically for the Border Princes. Glad you're enjoying the direction they've taken!
Wha... um... 'bathwater'? You mean all that rich background that people are mourning, or something else?
Yep, a lot of it can be rehashed for my money. There's just too much, it's too old, I'm sure the weight of it must be a burden that actually stops new fluff being as good as it could be.
...how so? I'm genuinely curious, the background was always my favorite part and I tended to like the older stuff more. What would you have changed?
The background has been exactly the fething same for decades now. It's not as though an end of new content for that world invalidates your enjoyment of it. You can continue to love it in exactly the same static, unchanging state it's been in since the beginning. Just now that story has a nice, clean (and comparably well-written) ending to it, and the rest of us can go about enjoying NEW fluff. I for one am excited to see a world where the conflict isn't entirely driven by the clock being stuck at 2 minutes to midnight for all of eternity.
Not sure if serious then I saw you write well written and I knew you were trolling/blindly defending the faith.
Also there's a 99% chance the new setting starts at some grim dark 2 minutes till the end again situation, it's all GW are able to write.
Wha... um... 'bathwater'? You mean all that rich background that people are mourning, or something else?
Yep, a lot of it can be rehashed for my money. There's just too much, it's too old, I'm sure the weight of it must be a burden that actually stops new fluff being as good as it could be.
...how so? I'm genuinely curious, the background was always my favorite part and I tended to like the older stuff more. What would you have changed?
The background has been exactly the fething same for decades now. It's not as though an end of new content for that world invalidates your enjoyment of it. You can continue to love it in exactly the same static, unchanging state it's been in since the beginning. Just now that story has a nice, clean (and comparably well-written) ending to it, and the rest of us can go about enjoying NEW fluff. I for one am excited to see a world where the conflict isn't entirely driven by the clock being stuck at 2 minutes to midnight for all of eternity.
Not sure if serious then I saw you write well written and I knew you were trolling/blindly defending the faith.
Also there's a 99% chance the new setting starts at some grim dark 2 minutes till the end again situation, it's all GW are able to write.
I pretty much agree with PRN-o'-Death on this one. I have loved the theme, the flavour and everything but the world has been fundamentally unchanged for so long. I don't begrudge the story an ending if it means we can get a fresh start. I feel like something new isn't going to harm what has already been established. The Warhammer world has been a fixed point of reference in my mind since I was sixteen; the creation of something new doesn't threaten that.
In terms of the literary quality of the ending, what I've seen of End Times is, in general, no better or worse than GW average - which means I've pretty much enjoyed it. That's cos I'm into the game, not because anyone thinks it's Shakespeare.
I still don't get why some people wanted the story to advance. I've been into the fluff of 40K and WHFB for almost 20 years now and never once felt the need for the stories to advance.
Spinner wrote:I think we might disagree on the "well-written" part.
And don't mistake me, I would have liked to see things change, but...y'know. Not wiped away. Add to the story, don't end it. I never saw the Warhammer world as stuck at two minutes to midnight, unlike 40k - the apocalypse happened in sixth and seventh edition, Archaon turned up and wrecked most of the northern empire, and the cool part was that people picked up their lives afterward and got on with them. Things were more dangerous, cities were in ruin, warbands of beastmen and greenskins were lurking in the forests, and the Empire nearly underwent a religious schism, but it was still recognizable as the same world. More of that, please!
I know that I'm not changing anything by grumbling over the internet, just getting my opinion out there. I fully intend to still appreciate the setting I love, but it's disappointing that it isn't the official one any more and I won't be getting excited over...I don't know, a campaign focused on the Dark Lands or miniature releases specifically for the Border Princes. Glad you're enjoying the direction they've taken!
"Comparatively" well-written. It's corporate fantasy...let's be realistic about what our standards are here.
As for WHFB prior to this, the plot has progressed basically not at all since the beginning. Archaon got a fancy hat. We got more detail on how Beastmen smear gak onto things. Undead were split and their fluff retconned. That's...about it.
I know a lot of dedicated fluff players who stopped reading the fluff in new books. It was just the same stuff, rehashed. Again. And Again. And Again.
If you like the old setting then there's 30 years of lore for you to enjoy. As I said before, it's not going anywhere and it's exactly the way you like it. But the rest of us were bored, and we appreciate seeing something new. How is this not a win-win?
Fezman wrote:30 years of fluff straight in the bin with a total anticlimax. Once upon a time the forces of Chaos were about to devour the world. So they did. The end.
You haven't even read the book yet! How can you say that 5 voluminous fluff books are an "anticlimax"? They're ending the world. It was written on the tin. Story is over. Now go back and enjoy it all again if you want, or wait to see whatever new stuff they cook up. If you want to keep the old world then just keep going in that setting. Or do an army in an old setting.
Wha... um... 'bathwater'? You mean all that rich background that people are mourning, or something else?
Yep, a lot of it can be rehashed for my money. There's just too much, it's too old, I'm sure the weight of it must be a burden that actually stops new fluff being as good as it could be.
...how so? I'm genuinely curious, the background was always my favorite part and I tended to like the older stuff more. What would you have changed?
The background has been exactly the fething same for decades now. It's not as though an end of new content for that world invalidates your enjoyment of it. You can continue to love it in exactly the same static, unchanging state it's been in since the beginning. Just now that story has a nice, clean (and comparably well-written) ending to it, and the rest of us can go about enjoying NEW fluff. I for one am excited to see a world where the conflict isn't entirely driven by the clock being stuck at 2 minutes to midnight for all of eternity.
Not sure if serious then I saw you write well written and I knew you were trolling/blindly defending the faith.
Also there's a 99% chance the new setting starts at some grim dark 2 minutes till the end again situation, it's all GW are able to write.
I said "comparatively well-written." It's not winning any Hugo awards, but it's on the level of the Horus Heresy books, the Forgotten Realms fluff, and well above all the stuff previously written for WHFB. Gotta be real about what we're expecting, here.
Spinner wrote:I think we might disagree on the "well-written" part.
And don't mistake me, I would have liked to see things change, but...y'know. Not wiped away. Add to the story, don't end it. I never saw the Warhammer world as stuck at two minutes to midnight, unlike 40k - the apocalypse happened in sixth and seventh edition, Archaon turned up and wrecked most of the northern empire, and the cool part was that people picked up their lives afterward and got on with them. Things were more dangerous, cities were in ruin, warbands of beastmen and greenskins were lurking in the forests, and the Empire nearly underwent a religious schism, but it was still recognizable as the same world. More of that, please!
I know that I'm not changing anything by grumbling over the internet, just getting my opinion out there. I fully intend to still appreciate the setting I love, but it's disappointing that it isn't the official one any more and I won't be getting excited over...I don't know, a campaign focused on the Dark Lands or miniature releases specifically for the Border Princes. Glad you're enjoying the direction they've taken!
"Comparatively" well-written. It's corporate fantasy...let's be realistic about what our standards are here.
As for WHFB prior to this, the plot has progressed basically not at all since the beginning. Archaon got a fancy hat. We got more detail on how Beastmen smear gak onto things. Undead were split and their fluff retconned. That's...about it.
I know a lot of dedicated fluff players who stopped reading the fluff in new books. It was just the same stuff, rehashed. Again. And Again. And Again.
If you like the old setting then there's 30 years of lore for you to enjoy. As I said before, it's not going anywhere and it's exactly the way you like it. But the rest of us were bored, and we appreciate seeing something new. How is this not a win-win?
Fezman wrote:30 years of fluff straight in the bin with a total anticlimax. Once upon a time the forces of Chaos were about to devour the world. So they did. The end.
You haven't even read the book yet! How can you say that 5 voluminous fluff books are an "anticlimax"? They're ending the world. It was written on the tin. Story is over. Now go back and enjoy it all again if you want, or wait to see whatever new stuff they cook up. If you want to keep the old world then just keep going in that setting. Or do an army in an old setting.
Wha... um... 'bathwater'? You mean all that rich background that people are mourning, or something else?
Yep, a lot of it can be rehashed for my money. There's just too much, it's too old, I'm sure the weight of it must be a burden that actually stops new fluff being as good as it could be.
...how so? I'm genuinely curious, the background was always my favorite part and I tended to like the older stuff more. What would you have changed?
The background has been exactly the fething same for decades now. It's not as though an end of new content for that world invalidates your enjoyment of it. You can continue to love it in exactly the same static, unchanging state it's been in since the beginning. Just now that story has a nice, clean (and comparably well-written) ending to it, and the rest of us can go about enjoying NEW fluff. I for one am excited to see a world where the conflict isn't entirely driven by the clock being stuck at 2 minutes to midnight for all of eternity.
Not sure if serious then I saw you write well written and I knew you were trolling/blindly defending the faith.
Also there's a 99% chance the new setting starts at some grim dark 2 minutes till the end again situation, it's all GW are able to write.
I said "comparatively well-written." It's not winning any Hugo awards, but it's on the level of the Horus Heresy books, the Forgotten Realms fluff, and well above all the stuff previously written for WHFB. Gotta be real about what we're expecting, here.
Because the ending is "Chaos wins. World Ends. Kthxbai." It's what we all knew would happen, but instead of them ending it with a bang, they did it with a whimper.
As for WHFB prior to this, the plot has progressed basically not at all since the beginning. Archaon got a fancy hat. We got more detail on how Beastmen smear gak onto things. Undead were split and their fluff retconned. That's...about it.
I know a lot of dedicated fluff players who stopped reading the fluff in new books. It was just the same stuff, rehashed. Again. And Again. And Again.
If you like the old setting then there's 30 years of lore for you to enjoy. As I said before, it's not going anywhere and it's exactly the way you like it. But the rest of us were bored, and we appreciate seeing something new. How is this not a win-win?
Like I said, I plan on doing exactly that, but it's kinda sad that they aren't going to be exploring some of the less-covered areas of the map. Sure, if you just read the army books, it's all the same stuff with some new bits thrown in. Some of the new bits were pretty good, but there's no denying that's what they did. That's what fit their 're-release and update' business model. But what about, say, some of the stuff in the RPGs? There's some absolute gold in there, much more than beastmen pooping on stuff or rehash after rehash. What about some of the better Black Library stuff? Skarsnik was pretty fantastic, you can't tell me the final page of the End Times fluff that keeps cropping up is on par with that.
I would have loved for things to have been expanded, not rebooted. There's this great map of a chunk of the Warhammer world...spoilered for size!
Spoiler:
They had this giant sandbox of a world to play in - setting-wise, it's so much smaller than, say, 40k, but all of the 'here be dragons' bits made it feel larger, at least to me. Wouldn't it have been cool to see what they could have come up with for some of those places? And now they won't. THAT'S why it isn't a win-win. Maybe they'll think up something just as cool, but I'm not optimistic. All the rumors point to trimming off the edges of the map so they can focus on their top selling-stuff. And, y'know, fair play to them. I can't force them to make a product I'm interested in, just like they can't force me to put up with all of their associated crap to buy one I don't like.
I really am happy for you, though! Glad they're selling what you want. Although I have to ask - if you were so bored with it...wouldn't a more win-win sort of situation be you picking up a different setting, rather than this one getting exploded?
As for WHFB prior to this, the plot has progressed basically not at all since the beginning. Archaon got a fancy hat. We got more detail on how Beastmen smear gak onto things. Undead were split and their fluff retconned. That's...about it.
I know a lot of dedicated fluff players who stopped reading the fluff in new books. It was just the same stuff, rehashed. Again. And Again. And Again.
If you like the old setting then there's 30 years of lore for you to enjoy. As I said before, it's not going anywhere and it's exactly the way you like it. But the rest of us were bored, and we appreciate seeing something new. How is this not a win-win?
Like I said, I plan on doing exactly that, but it's kinda sad that they aren't going to be exploring some of the less-covered areas of the map. Sure, if you just read the army books, it's all the same stuff with some new bits thrown in. Some of the new bits were pretty good, but there's no denying that's what they did. That's what fit their 're-release and update' business model. But what about, say, some of the stuff in the RPGs? There's some absolute gold in there, much more than beastmen pooping on stuff or rehash after rehash. What about some of the better Black Library stuff? Skarsnik was pretty fantastic, you can't tell me the final page of the End Times fluff that keeps cropping up is on par with that.
I would have loved for things to have been expanded, not rebooted. There's this great map of a chunk of the Warhammer world...spoilered for size!
Spoiler:
They had this giant sandbox of a world to play in - setting-wise, it's so much smaller than, say, 40k, but all of the 'here be dragons' bits made it feel larger, at least to me. Wouldn't it have been cool to see what they could have come up with for some of those places? And now they won't. THAT'S why it isn't a win-win. Maybe they'll think up something just as cool, but I'm not optimistic. All the rumors point to trimming off the edges of the map so they can focus on their top selling-stuff. And, y'know, fair play to them. I can't force them to make a product I'm interested in, just like they can't force me to put up with all of their associated crap to buy one I don't like.
I really am happy for you, though! Glad they're selling what you want. Although I have to ask - if you were so bored with it...wouldn't a more win-win sort of situation be you picking up a different setting, rather than this one getting exploded?
The issue is that there's only so much that is appropriate for insertion into a tabletop wargame.
Fact of the matter is that most people don't read fluff, and the majority of the ones that do only read what's in their particular army book. That places strict bounds on what you can do that most people will enjoy. The more fleshed out a world gets too, the more rigid it becomes. Giving dwarfs a more dynamic playstyle means fundamentally altering their fluff. Ditto to lots of the other races. How do you justify Khemri invading into the Chaos Wastes when the fluff justification isn't there at all?
There's no denying that WHFB isn't a great setting...but its utility as a setting for a tabletop wargame was largely worn out. It would be a great setting for an RPG, or a series of video games / MMO <cough>, etc., but for a tabletop wargame it needed a refresh.
Also people keep pointing to the final page of the book as the "whimper," but there are 5 voluminous tomes that led up to that one single page which have been - in the words of every person I know who has actually read the whole thing cover-to-cover - pretty awesome.
The TL;DR is that any "expansion" they could do onto the world wouldn't be of much benefit to the tabletop game, and few would appreciate it save fluff die hards like yourself. The rest of us want better fluff in our armybooks, and the current world wrote them into a corner.
As for the win-win, your setting is still there. It's just not getting anything new. Which is unfortunate, but you can still continue to craft stories in it. I would have rathered seeing an alternative setting instead, kind of like Eberron vs. Forgotten Realms, but such is life. I once heard a wise man say that "Art is never finished, it is merely abandoned." At some point the authors need to call it "good enough" and move on, and I think WHFB reached that point. End Times was a great send-off, but I look forward to the new setting whatever it may be.
Again, I dunno. I don't disagree about GW needing to do things differently...but I don't think fundamentally changing the setting is the answer. They have the same problems in 40k - rehashed fluff, isolated factions (okay, mostly the Tau, but most of the Warhammer factions had a pretty decent reason to turn up wherever - some dumb Norscan raider walked off with a longship full of artifacts and now there's tomb barques rowing up the fjords, for example - there ya go, narrative forged), and a lot of concepts that they aren't willing to discard. That's not going to change because they burned down the setting. It's a consistent business style for them. They'll just keep running into the same problems further down the road. They're not going to stop the 're-release books over and over' model, so they're either going to have to keep repeating fluff or change each faction every time the next edition comes out.
An alternative setting WOULD have been a win-win. Y'know what? I would have loved a skirmish-based game set in the Chaos Wastes with all the weird stuff people are talking about ninth having. Okay, maybe not all the limited edition models, but patches of reality and so forth...they already had that setting raring to go. Chaos warbands and foolhardy expeditions from further south clashing...I'd have played that in a shot, and they didn't have to break the world to do it.
With regards to why everyone's focused on the last page...honestly, from my point of view, it's pretty terrible. "These truly were the End Times. But they were also the beginning." I mean...really? Sorry if you like it, it just sounds...yeah. That's not a great way to finish off an apocalypse - and one that, in my mind, really didn't fit the tone of the world. Morrsleib was blown up, the Lizardmen took off in magic spaceships, heroes got the essence of magic itself bound into them for a power-up...these are concepts I can see working in someones D&D campaign, they're not necessarily bad, but they just don't fit the Grim World of Perilous Adventure aesthetic that I've always associated with Warhammer. Maybe we both got different things out of the setting, I don't know.
And I could see expansions doing pretty well! Release them like the supplement things they have in 40k. You get a Kurgan or Hung cavalry army for Chaos, a Cathay army you can use with your Empire book...Southlands Lizardmen...that kind of stuff.
I actually wanted them to go micro on the fluff. I love my empire, but I could care less reading about all the super exploits of Ludwig Schwarzhelm and his oiled mustachio...
I wanted fluff on the different districts in Altdorf, stories of what it's like to be a beggar or thief there. I wanted maps of towns. Explanations of how villages defend themselves against raids. Structures of Empire regiments and standing armies etc etc etc
I'm sure lots of people would have liked that for their respective armies too. Most of the fluff in the armybooks is either historic or about special characters, which are the parts that bore me the most. There was SO much scope for fleshing out each faction and keeping the army book fluff fresh in my opinion.
I can only hope in 9th they focus more on that sorta stuff now that the superhero convention got all the special characters killed off...
Spinner wrote:I would have loved for things to have been expanded, not rebooted. There's this great map of a chunk of the Warhammer world...
They had this giant sandbox of a world to play in - setting-wise, it's so much smaller than, say, 40k, but all of the 'here be dragons' bits made it feel larger, at least to me. Wouldn't it have been cool to see what they could have come up with for some of those places? And now they won't.
I know just what you mean. I love fantasy maps. They show you all these mysterious exotic places, as you say, but also 'solidify' the setting in a way. Warhammer maps are no different. I still have the big world map that came with WD #300, and I won't get rid of that no matter how rubbish or how unrecognisable WFB becomes. But now all the blank bits, for all intents and purposes, aren't even blank bits anymore.
Spinner wrote:(...some dumb Norscan raider walked off with a longship full of artifacts and now there's tomb barques rowing up the fjords, for example - there ya go, narrative forged)
They'll just keep running into the same problems further down the road. They're not going to stop the 're-release books over and over' model, so they're either going to have to keep repeating fluff or change each faction every time the next edition comes out.
Well said. I'd suggest that repeated fluff isn't the real problem there, so much as the culture of rules churn that GW built up and that GW fans now expect. Yeah, it'd be nice if they prodded the fluff on a wee bit every time, but it's not entirely necessary when the actual purpose is to switch around how cavalry acts yet again or to prompt you to buy more minis for a horde or three.
Y'know what? I would have loved a skirmish-based game set in the Chaos Wastes with all the weird stuff people are talking about ninth having. Okay, maybe not all the limited edition models, but patches of reality and so forth...they already had that setting raring to go. Chaos warbands and foolhardy expeditions from further south clashing...I'd have played that in a shot, and they didn't have to break the world to do it.
They made that! I mean, besides ye olde 3rd ed Realms of Chaos stuff. There were WD rules about the time of Storm of Chaos, for building up a Chaos warband and levelling them up through a campaign system. After a quick google, it looks like they were updated from RoC's Path to Glory subgame. See here. Looks like the full PDF of WD rules is online, though as I'm not sure about Dakka's policy I won't link them. Not difficult to find, though.
With regards to why everyone's focused on the last page...honestly, from my point of view, it's pretty terrible. "These truly were the End Times. But they were also the beginning." I mean...really? Sorry if you like it, it just sounds...yeah.
It screams 'rushed afterthought'. "Hey, we've got to finish up that old crap before we schill the new stuff to them. Can you sort it?" "Oh yeah. Give me, like, three seconds. Two tops," *Clickyclickettyclick* "There. Shakespeare eat your heart out."
And I could see expansions doing pretty well! Release them like the supplement things they have in 40k. You get a Kurgan or Hung cavalry army for Chaos, a Cathay army you can use with your Empire book...Southlands Lizardmen...that kind of stuff.
Again, a lot of the kind of stuff that used to appear in WD. Last time I ever bothered to start building a WFB army was for the Skaven Hell Pit list from... how many years ago now?
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Bottle wrote: I actually wanted them to go micro on the fluff. I love my empire, but I could care less reading about all the super exploits of Ludwig Schwarzhelm and his oiled mustachio...
I wanted fluff on the different districts in Altdorf, stories of what it's like to be a beggar or thief there. I wanted maps of towns. Explanations of how villages defend themselves against raids. Structures of Empire regiments and standing armies etc etc etc
That too! I got laughed at for buying the Empire uniforms and heraldry book, and the Skaven one, but they fire off the imagination in a bunch of small, interesting ways. And some of the most engrossing Warhammer fluff I found online was a map of Marienburg and a description of it's districts, from old WFRP books I suppose. I imagine you'd still find a lot of that in more recent WFRP books, but, well, I'd have to go see if they're still in print, and if they do have the same kind of 'mundane' details.
Thanks much, Vermis! And yeah, I had seen the old Path to Glory stuff - which is why I was so surprised that they didn't reboot it for a skirmish game. I mean, it's absolutely perfect for it! And wasn't the Hell Pit list one of those back-of-the-book armies? Those were a cool idea.
I actually wanted them to go micro on the fluff. I love my empire, but I could care less reading about all the super exploits of Ludwig Schwarzhelm and his oiled mustachio...
I wanted fluff on the different districts in Altdorf, stories of what it's like to be a beggar or thief there. I wanted maps of towns. Explanations of how villages defend themselves against raids. Structures of Empire regiments and standing armies etc etc etc
I'm sure lots of people would have liked that for their respective armies too. Most of the fluff in the armybooks is either historic or about special characters, which are the parts that bore me the most. There was SO much scope for fleshing out each faction and keeping the army book fluff fresh in my opinion.
That is exactly the kind of stuff I want too! There's only so much you can say about Karl Franz or Grimgor, but there's a ton of things to talk about when you get down to how Marienburg and the Empire proper handle each other, or what everyday life is like when you live in a mountain and come under siege every couple of years. It's why I liked Skarsnik so much; the book wasn't about armies beating the hell out of each other, it was about a goblin's rise to power, and in telling that story it really let you in on how your average gobbo lives his (nasty, brutish, and usually very short) life.
This kind of reminds me of some big Event in comics where they decide they need to reinvent a character, blow up part of the setting, and massacre a bunch of B-listers. There's usually a spike of interest, but the property is less interesting in the long term, because they've eliminated things that people really liked, and have no real idea how to follow up on the changes apart from clumsy retcons, or "Now things are grimmer and grittier!"
thedarkavenger wrote: Because the ending is "Chaos wins. World Ends. Kthxbai." It's what we all knew would happen, but instead of them ending it with a bang, they did it with a whimper.
Being fair, if you go read the very last page of any novel (or series of novels) and that's it, it'd be an anticlimax. The entire 5 book arc taken as a whole certainly isn't just "Chaos wins Kthxbai".
All reminds me a little of the 'heroes of might and magic' games way back when- cataclysmic fight brought the end of the world, everyone jumped through portals to a new one
Because the ending is "Chaos wins. World Ends. Kthxbai." It's what we all knew would happen, but instead of them ending it with a bang, they did it with a whimper.
Not really.
The whimper-ending I was expecting, was the game one day simply disappearing from the website like Necromunda & Co.
Instead there's a fun, if possibly flawed 5-book campaign to say goodbye to 30 years of Warhammer.
I wish Necromunda, Gorkamorka, Epic 40.000, etc.. would've only gotten a single-book campaign to put them to sleep, instead GW just pulling the plug some random day.
I don't think saying that the EoT ending sucks because everyone dies and the world is destroyed is a thoughtful critique.
It's like saying - with the needed grain of salt - that Romeo and Juliet sucks because both die instead of living happily ever after.
Neither is the objection that they should have built upon the EoT instead of wrapping it up. I mean, at some point you reach the end of the narrative. Reading about the world crumbling under Chaos' grip is actually interesting - and it doesn't invalidate any of the previous lore and rules. Moorcock has written a very similar ending to the Elric saga, and Warhammer has always taken a lot of concepts from his books.
The difference is that EoT is not written by Moorcock, Martin, Zimmer Bradley, Gaiman or (God help us) Tolkien; this means that there are indeed cheesy parts bordering on fanfiction, but the good ideas that provide the overall structure are there.
Personally, I love the idea that the warhammer universe is framed within a cycle of destruction and rebirth.
I also like the idea that the world went down without a big bang - it underlines the inevitability of destruction and the sheer horror of the scale.
The idea that Chaos destroys everything but a single man and some mystical ball is just brilliant: if you think about it, it's so random and irrational that it perfectly fits the concept of Chaos as disorder.
Furthermore, I can appreciate the fact that Warhammer - the setting that created the "grimdark" trope - ends on a note of hope, with the promise of the birth of a new world. It's like saying "we've gone through the grim darkness for 30 years, but there's always hope". Which is a message that will resonate in a lot of people out there.
Some of these concepts are most probably involuntary, but that doesn't mean they should be ignored: nice things can come from oversights or mistakes, after all.
Bottom line, I am looking forward to see what GW is going to do with the WHFB IP now.
Because the ending is "Chaos wins. World Ends. Kthxbai." It's what we all knew would happen, but instead of them ending it with a bang, they did it with a whimper.
Not really.
The whimper-ending I was expecting, was the game one day simply disappearing from the website like Necromunda & Co.
Instead there's a fun, if possibly flawed 5-book campaign to say goodbye to 30 years of Warhammer.
I wish Necromunda, Gorkamorka, Epic 40.000, etc.. would've only gotten a single-book campaign to put them to sleep, instead GW just pulling the plug some random day.
So having the role end in a way that doesn't pay any expect to the entire world they've built isn't a whimper?
It's certainly not a bang, or a good ending. It's just another book that we have to ignore.
Vetril wrote: I don't think saying that the EoT ending sucks because everyone dies and the world is destroyed is a thoughtful critique.
It's like saying - with the needed grain of salt - that Romeo and Juliet sucks because both die instead of living happily ever after.
Neither is the objection that they should have built upon the EoT instead of wrapping it up. I mean, at some point you reach the end of the narrative. Reading about the world crumbling under Chaos' grip is actually interesting - and it doesn't invalidate any of the previous lore and rules. Moorcock has written a very similar ending to the Elric saga, and Warhammer has always taken a lot of concepts from his books.
The difference is that EoT is not written by Moorcock, Martin, Zimmer Bradley, Gaiman or (God help us) Tolkien; this means that there are indeed cheesy parts bordering on fanfiction, but the good ideas that provide the overall structure are there.
Personally, I love the idea that the warhammer universe is framed within a cycle of destruction and rebirth.
I also like the idea that the world went down without a big bang - it underlines the inevitability of destruction and the sheer horror of the scale.
The idea that Chaos destroys everything but a single man and some mystical ball is just brilliant: if you think about it, it's so random and irrational that it perfectly fits the concept of Chaos as disorder.
Furthermore, I can appreciate the fact that Warhammer - the setting that created the "grimdark" trope - ends on a note of hope, with the promise of the birth of a new world. It's like saying "we've gone through the grim darkness for 30 years, but there's always hope". Which is a message that will resonate in a lot of people out there.
Some of these concepts are most probably involuntary, but that doesn't mean they should be ignored: nice things can come from oversights or mistakes, after all.
Bottom line, I am looking forward to see what GW is going to do with the WHFB IP now.
I'm not saying that the EoT sucked because everyone dies and the world is destroyed.
I'm saying that the EoT sucks period. It should never have been made, it goes against almost all the fluff that came before it and most of it was pretty badly written to boot.
And all that that crappy "cycle of rebirth" nonsense reminded me was of the ending of the Paddle Pop Dinoterra movie where the bad guy gets trapped in a endless time loop. That is how bad GW's writings have got, they are using the same plot devices as a movie for 6 year olds.
Vetril wrote: I don't think saying that the EoT ending sucks because everyone dies and the world is destroyed is a thoughtful critique.
It's like saying - with the needed grain of salt - that Romeo and Juliet sucks because both die instead of living happily ever after.
Neither is the objection that they should have built upon the EoT instead of wrapping it up. I mean, at some point you reach the end of the narrative. Reading about the world crumbling under Chaos' grip is actually interesting - and it doesn't invalidate any of the previous lore and rules. Moorcock has written a very similar ending to the Elric saga, and Warhammer has always taken a lot of concepts from his books.
The difference is that EoT is not written by Moorcock, Martin, Zimmer Bradley, Gaiman or (God help us) Tolkien; this means that there are indeed cheesy parts bordering on fanfiction, but the good ideas that provide the overall structure are there.
Personally, I love the idea that the warhammer universe is framed within a cycle of destruction and rebirth.
I also like the idea that the world went down without a big bang - it underlines the inevitability of destruction and the sheer horror of the scale.
The idea that Chaos destroys everything but a single man and some mystical ball is just brilliant: if you think about it, it's so random and irrational that it perfectly fits the concept of Chaos as disorder.
Furthermore, I can appreciate the fact that Warhammer - the setting that created the "grimdark" trope - ends on a note of hope, with the promise of the birth of a new world. It's like saying "we've gone through the grim darkness for 30 years, but there's always hope". Which is a message that will resonate in a lot of people out there.
Some of these concepts are most probably involuntary, but that doesn't mean they should be ignored: nice things can come from oversights or mistakes, after all.
Bottom line, I am looking forward to see what GW is going to do with the WHFB IP now.
I'm not saying that the EoT sucked because everyone dies and the world is destroyed.
I'm saying that the EoT sucks period. It should never have been made, it goes against almost all the fluff that came before it and most of it was pretty badly written to boot.
And all that that crappy "cycle of rebirth" nonsense reminded me was of the ending of the Paddle Pop Dinoterra movie where the bad guy gets trapped in a endless time loop. That is how bad GW's writings have got, they are using the same plot devices as a movie for 6 year olds.
The End Times books were fantastically well written, up until Thanquol. Glottkin is debatable.
I agree, the End Times was fantastically written. I even enjoyed Thanquol, although i must admit i enjoyed it from every perspective apart from the Skaven themselves. End Times made some gutsy decisions such as the Lizardman exodus and the reunification of the Elves but it was all explained plausibly.
I do not doubt Archaon will be well written, it should be the best piece of fluff to come out of GW for a LONG time. What concerns me is how fantasy will evolve from it into 9th Ed.
And for those of you worrying about unbound fantasy, remember that Archaon is not 9th Ed. If people don't like unbound, there is no point selling your armies in a huff, just wait it out until 9th. If the backlash to unbound is enough (Despite what people say, GW staff do notice a disgruntled customer and pass it forward) it will certainly be dropped for whatever 9th brings.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: I agree, the End Times was fantastically written. I even enjoyed Thanquol, although i must admit i enjoyed it from every perspective apart from the Skaven themselves. End Times made some gutsy decisions such as the Lizardman exodus and the reunification of the Elves but it was all explained plausibly.
I do not doubt Archaon will be well written, it should be the best piece of fluff to come out of GW for a LONG time. What concerns me is how fantasy will evolve from it into 9th Ed.
And for those of you worrying about unbound fantasy, remember that Archaon is not 9th Ed. If people don't like unbound, there is no point selling your armies in a huff, just wait it out until 9th. If the backlash to unbound is enough (Despite what people say, GW staff do notice a disgruntled customer and pass it forward) it will certainly be dropped for whatever 9th brings.
If 9th edition is due out in July then the book has already been written and sent off to the printers. There is no chance it will be changed in time for release.
That said, I agree with everything else you say. ET: Archaon isn't 9th edition, and there's no reason to beleive that this isn't just something they're doing in the spirit of the End Times.
Let's wait and see. There's really no point freaking out just yet. People are being incredibly silly.
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: I agree, the End Times was fantastically written. I even enjoyed Thanquol, although i must admit i enjoyed it from every perspective apart from the Skaven themselves. End Times made some gutsy decisions such as the Lizardman exodus and the reunification of the Elves but it was all explained plausibly.
I do not doubt Archaon will be well written, it should be the best piece of fluff to come out of GW for a LONG time. What concerns me is how fantasy will evolve from it into 9th Ed.
And for those of you worrying about unbound fantasy, remember that Archaon is not 9th Ed. If people don't like unbound, there is no point selling your armies in a huff, just wait it out until 9th. If the backlash to unbound is enough (Despite what people say, GW staff do notice a disgruntled customer and pass it forward) it will certainly be dropped for whatever 9th brings.
If 9th edition is due out in July then the book has already been written and sent off to the printers. There is no chance it will be changed in time for release.
That said, I agree with everything else you say. ET: Archaon isn't 9th edition, and there's no reason to beleive that this isn't just something they're doing in the spirit of the End Times.
Let's wait and see. There's really no point freaking out just yet. People are being incredibly silly.
All 9th needs to be is a reworked 8th. That way, they can just release primed versions of the rules as and when queries come up. AND ACTUAL FAQS. But I digress. And yes, I did say that I'm putting my armies on the shelf. That has been something I've been considering for a while. All fantasy has become recently is an arms race. First it was UL, when people took Nagash and VC armies with no downsides. Then it was Glottkin with the stupid herdstone lists. Then came Khaine with the HotEK lists. Then Thanquol with Rattling Cannons. Now we've got Archaon which just, urgh. I'm so burnt out with warhammer that unless 9th is the golden goose, I'm not likely to reinvest.
GW have a precedent of randomly changing the ruleset so drastically, no book will be valid. I'm not confident that this isn't the case.
I like the End Times writing. The only sucky thing is the "use whatever you want, we give up" ruling. That's just poor and shouldn't have happened. I get it: the end is here, all that's left is being thrown against Archaon, no holding back. But it doesn't work from a rules perspective.
I'm not sure what was so bad at leaving the end of times perpetual? I don't think they even needed an official end of times series to push that agenda.
kveldulf wrote: I'm not sure what was so bad at leaving the end of times perpetual? I don't think they even needed an official end of times series to push that agenda.
Yes me too.
I like my background setting as just that, a background setting.
I think GW is just using End Times to bridge a gap between one background setting and the next, while at the same time pleasing fans who wanted to see a resolution to their background/ releasing loads of cool new models outside of armybooks/ milking fans with limited edition books.
I have no doubt that the new background will be another dark, compelling setting also frozen in time to act as a frame for our own stories and armies. The reason for the mix-up is largely miniature based in my opinion as every single faction is likely to see the more generic parts dropped and more unique stuff added in (similar to the End Times models).
I swing like a pendulum between feeling sad and happy for the transition. Right now I am feeling positive. I look forward to the 'Empire' (or whatever the humans will be called) embracing even more grim steampunk wackiness as long as they retain some elements of the 16th Germanic style they have too.
Why is Eldyra in the book? Wasn't she turned into a goddess?
Ah. I've been waiting on this one. Eldyra's presence in The Lord of the End Times is what we, in the biz, like to call a 'f*ck up.' Mostly on my part, I think.
See, what happened was, I included her in the book because I thought her final fate hadn't been covered by anyone else, and I thought it wasn't exactly fair to turn her into a vampire in the first book and then never mention her again. Too, the fifth ET book was pretty light on female characters. So, I put her in, and decided to give her and Tyrion a last moment for some (probably unnecessary) pathos. Just to twist the knife a bit before the end.
What I didn't *know* at the time, was that she'd been turned into a goddess in ET: Khaine. I didn't find that out until after this book was already at the printers. By the time I learned about it, it was too late to hack those bits out.
Frankly, it was my fault for not triple-checking. Just like leaving out Alith Anar and Skarsnik. It's filed under 'Things I Could Have Done Better If I'd Had The Time'.
That said, you can always make the case that she's not really Eldyra, but rather what's left of Eldyra after Lileath snatches her soul and deposits it in the Haven. An undead husk of the last princess of Tiranoc, desperately seeking absolution from the one person she trusts to give it to her.
This one stood out to me. Now I haven't read any End Times (and don't plan to), but this seems to suggest that all the books were independently commissioned and none of the writers bothered to read each other's work? ...
Now that they have actually ended it I feel much more apathetic then I originally expected. It's probably because I reached a point about 2 years ago when I decided I wasn't buying anything else. The only thing I have bought from a GW in the past 5 yeas has been 2 rule books everything else has been ebay. I don't care for the current model range so new figs don't interest me any. I have multiple armies at 10K +, so I don't need anything else. I prefer big games and the 8th rules support that pretty well. I only play WH with a small crowd of 8 others and most of us feel the same way.
At first I thought I would be annoyed if the rumors of the end were true, but after I thought about it I really feel like I don't care. I have been playing since 3rd and never cared for GWs fluff in the first place. I always found it bland with very 2 dimensional characters. I also detest the entire chaos background I also never liked how GW gave them more attention than any other faction. So for the past 20 years I have just been using GW models and rules for my own setting.
Now that said I do have a few friends that are really into the fluff for their armies so I sympathize with them, but personally I left the old world behind a long time ago.
So as for the story i could care less, but for the rules and declining sales GW made this mess themselves.
I like 8th ed but it was written with the sole purpose of selling more models than any past editions. Step up ment more models were goine to die, steadfast ment people needed bigger units, model point cost was cut so more models would fit in the same point games. Even veterans had to buy some more models to accommodate this, not many people had the models to field 50 man units of halberdiers or 100 man units of night goblins. At first glance I'm sure GW thought this was a great idea given their huge profit point. But unfortunately GW never responded to the world recession. Before 8th a person could get into the game for $100-200. Once the economy tanked and game cost went up fewer people hadd the funds to buy in. GW could have saved themselves by limiting unit sizes, adjusting rules, or heaven forbid cut prices. However GW did none of these things and fantasy sales suffered to its current state. So now when faced with declining sales and rising competition they are stuck with making the drastic decision that is End Times.
At the end of the day it is a shame for a system that has been going for so long because GW couldn't think of a better way to turn things around outside of destroying the world. A good DM always finds s way to keep the story alive, GW just hasn't had any of those for over a decade.
I just read of Gork causing some kind of earthquake, Gobbla being killed and Skarsnik going full emo on it (oh man...) and his army then disappearing somewhere (after kicking the Dwarf's ass) and G&O suddenly teaming up with Ogres or Beastmen or something...but not seeing Gork and Mork...or Mork and Gork...having any saying on what happens despite them being portrayed as extremely powerful with them having an endless amount of believers and such is...disappointing.
They are MORE POWERFUL than the Chaos Gods and then do..nothing? What?
So, having not read the End Times (just started the books) but not caring about spoilers...What happened to Gotrek? Wasn't he destined to kill some big baddie?
Shouldnt warhammer world end more like 'after the gods died, it took plagues, famine and primal violence a thousand years to kill the remnants of the once great races of the old world. The thriving worms went last, a silent farewell dance on bones picked clean weaks before. The final screams of the gods or Gork's burp shaken the very foundation of the planet and when cracks and crevices swallowing whole cities, lands and seas finaly met, there was noone and nothing left that could witness it. How thankful would the heroes of old be seeing the bare rocks floating into dark space carrying no memory of their humiliation, none can say as there's no solace anymore for devoured souls that vanished together with their gods.' or sth.
The End Times ending sounds quick and painless, which is wrong imo.
So, having not read the End Times (just started the books) but not caring about spoilers...What happened to Gotrek? Wasn't he destined to kill some big baddie?
The final book in the Gotrek & Felix series doesnt come out till the 20th but you do get a glimpse of him in Middenheim at the end of Archaon
I'd play that.
up
Last time I ever bothered to start building a WFB army was for the Skaven Hell Pit list from... how many years ago now?
