Best in 5 man units kept in cover on objectives, or stalking the battlefield with arc rifles. A ratio of 2 Vanguards for 1 Rangers is widely considered as the best ratio, with the Vanguards going in the open field more often. Using a squad of 5 with 2 Arc Rifles is effective, allowing you to shoot at vehicles from an elevated position and in the safety of a cover (a 4+ armour almost certainly won’t help you against tanks’ return fire.) Most effective with the Omnispex, due to lowering cover.
The Transuranic Arquebus in general is not a good gun. Spending 25 additional points to get a S4 AP3 Armorbane gun is not worth it, compared to getting two more S4 AP4 Rapid Fire bodies. Rangers also do not synergize with the Plasma Caliver very well, due to having such long-ranged weapons. Keep in an objective sitting role, or abuse move through cover to kill tanks with Arc Rifles. Bare bones squads are effective due to Precision Shots. Taking out special weapons is very useful. Omnispices are a better option on the rangers then the Vanguard, since your basic weapons have AP4, allowing you to take on entrenched stuff like Tau infantry and other Skitarii a lot better.
Skitarii Vanguard
Spoiler:
Hands down one of the best troops choices in the game. A full unit of ten, bare bones, pump out 30 shots that could wound twice on 6's any Toughness value. Running them bare bones is worthwhile, but when the Vanguard Alpha is my warlord (if you run mono-skitarii) taking Plasma Calivers is worthwhile, due to "preferred enemy (everything)" mitigating the gets hot well. They've proven vital to my games, but their flimsiness is still real. They'll always die in the end though, such is their tragic fate. The -1 Toughness debuff in CC is rarely useful, but it is free, so hardly a negative.
The debuff can open up to some Instant Death schemes when cooperating with other strong units from your army, such as Kastelans and Sydonian Dragoons. Situational, but the possibility exists.
Don’t even think about putting the Arquebii on Vanguard. Arc Rifles are slightly less valuable on Vanguard than on Rangers, due to lack of Move Through Cover. The Plasma Caliver is still a risky weapon to take because you'll be sad when your 30 pts weapons will get shot, but it's still nice to have when you're facing TEQs.
Their biggest problem is getting in range, but with the Skitarii Maniple's scout move you are pretty much guaranteed to have some enemies on turn 1 in range. Omnispex are a good option, but not necessary since your weapons are only AP5. Meaning that most people can rely on an armour save equal or better then common coversaves.
Only against something like a DA Ravenwing with rerollable cover saves you might want to take the Omnispex for sure.
Sydonian Dragoon
Spoiler:
Good harassment/skirmish unit. 45 pts is cheap enough that you don't really cry when he dies, and just enough that you'll be happy when he destroys a vehicle from behind or kills 6 guys in a single charge. He's resilient to light arms fire but will crumble against a dedicated anti-vehicle unit in one turn. Use Scout and his big movement to get him to cover to boost his 5+ and outflank your targets with them. As always, do not mix weapons. Radium Jezzail looks nice, but in my personal opinion, Dragoons are best used as melee units.
If a Dragoon kills pretty much anything, it’ll make its points back. Running them solo or in squads of two seems to be the best way to play them. Bigger units become a hassle to move around and will be less point efficient than one or two.
Ironstrider Balistarius
Spoiler:
Somewhat of a "Trap" unit. The Onager Dunecrawler is a better gun platform for only 35 more points base, and the speed advantage is somewhat useless due to the 48" range on the Balistarius' guns. Expensive for a 55 point Autocannon platform, fairly useless in CC, and far too expensive for a Lascannon platform.
Even with it's "anti-air advantage", the Onager is better, with the Icarus Array killing far more flyers than a TL Autocannon at BS2. Having no inbuild cover save really hurts them compared to the Dragoons. Most of the time, this unit is not worth taking. Taking a lascannon on them grants you some good anti-armour shots, but the 20pts price tag for a total of 75pts does not make up for it.
Sicaran Infiltrator
Spoiler:
Tricky to use well, I'm trying to infiltrate them in a manner to allow me to approach the shooty backfield units. Sadly, the lack of offensive grenades damages their ability to charge units in buildings. Absolutely devastating on the charge, especially when you combine Zealot with the CC Doctrinas to drown in the weight of attacks. The Flechette Pistols can be devastating with some nice rolls too, they are deadly against blobs of T3 grunts. I've also used them hidden near a problematic unit to diminish their performances, but wasting 185 pts just for that may be a bit much. Overall, really nice but you have to be wary of their manoeuvring, and the fact that they're T3 still exposes them to ID most of the time.
I cannot recommend taking the power sword/stubcarbines. Taser Goads are simply too good to miss out on, due to high strength and exploding attacks. I, personally, like to put Phosphoenix on the Princeps in a Convocation, due to it being free, and Infiltrators actually getting in range.
A single squad of these and some Dragoons really put some pressure on your opponents army. Fast, Infiltrating and stealth give these guys a much better survival chance then the Ruststalkers, hiding them inside some ruins at the start of the game is a great way to ensure some decent saves against armies without ignore cover options.
They really depend on attacking before the enemy. A squad of Infiltrators will fold horribly against anything with high initiative S6 AP1-4. Power Mauls are your bane here, as are high-initiative MCs.
Sicaran Ruststalkers
Spoiler:
Keep equipped with Transonic Razors, Chordclaws and Mindscrambler Grenades, they benefit from both Dunestrider and Furious Charge, which add to make them a fast attack force. They're also very fragile with T3, even if they have 2 wounds each. They can exchange all their weapons for two Transonic Blades for free, which can ensure more of a hurt, but at the cost of utility and the chance for ID, while the Princeps can gain a Prehensile Dataspike for the cost of a melta and/or buy back the Chordclaw he traded away if he has double Transonic Blades.
While the Transonic Blades seem tempting, it is better to stay away from them. One attack with Fleshbane and the uber-grenades are vastly superior to +1S on the other attacks, especially since Furious Charge already makes your attacks S5.
These guys are a ton of fun to use. Their grenades allow you to charge through cover without suffering the initiative penalty, meaning that they can take on pretty much any entrenched foe hiding in some ruins.
The fact that their Transonic weapons need one round of close combat to become AP2 is actually a great boon. Since it allows you to kill a decent amount of models on turn you charge without killing the enemy unit (if it is big enough) outright, keeping you safe in your opponents next turns shooting phase. After that you clean up the unit in your opponents turn with the AP2. Include the Prehensile Dataspike and you also got a unit that can reliably take out an enemy vehicle or walker in one turn.
Their biggest issue is that they are super flimsy with only T3 and a 4+/6++/5+++. Luckily, they are fast. Movement + Dunestriderr + run + Dunecstrider (+crusader and scout in the maniple) makes up for an average movement of 15"" ( or 23" in maniple) in your first turn, meaning that they are almost guaranteed to charge a unit on their second turn. Combine their charge with the charge of a Dragoon and they will be a smashing hit. Transonic Blades never really outperform their counterpart and removes your ability to charge through terrain without suffering the initiative penalty, so personally I would say that the +1 strength is not worth losing the mindscrambler grenades for.
Onager Dunecrawler
Spoiler:
Absolute garbage in assault, so they would need a CQC babysitter unit like Infiltrators or Ruststalkers. Solo or 2-in-a-squad Dunecrawlers would be great with the Icarus array. Taking a ton would be a possible counter to Flyrants.
Useful with the Neutron Laser, as the ability to make explode vehicles in one shot is quite savoury to have. If you're running him solo, consider buying him the Cognis Manipulator, it's 25 pts but gives you IWND, helping you heal up a little as your 6++ won't save you. Good combined with hiding him in a ruin to give him a 4+ cover save. If you intend on having a unit of Vanguards or something to bodyguard them, consider taking the 10 points Mindscanner Probe, it denies the bonus charge attack on any of your units getting charged within a 6" radius. Situational, but unless that 10 points would buy you something better, generally worth it.
With a Neutron Laser or Icarus Array they can absolutely dominate the battlefield. Three of these in one squad for that sweet 4++ save allows them to take a gakload of damage.
The Eradication Beamer seems good on paper, but it suffers from range-banding and being too generalist. Better to specialize your Onagers than have them be mediocre to bad at everything. The Heavy Phosphor Blaster is completely redundant, and I cannot recommend taking it.
A possible build is running 4 or 5 of these. 2x2 with the Neutron Laser or 3 with the Neutron laser + 2 with the Icarus Array. As always, do not mix weapons in a squad. In a Convocation, consider taking a single Icarus Onager, due to Cult Mechanicus and Knights providing plenty of AP2. Two Icarus Onagers are overkill unless you’re playing against something like Necrons.
ALTERNATE TAKE (Gameandwatch)
Spoiler:
After careful consideration, I have determined the following:
TROOPS:
Vanguard are the best troop:
I know I know, rangers have some pretty cool stuff, but when it comes to general versatility and use, I don't think they hold up as well. First, they are more expensive. Second, none of the special weapons synergize with the unit. The only exception would be the arquebus, but even then it would make more sense to use the extreme range to keep the unit out of danger, which would mean you are only firing a maximum of 3 shots against most targets(since they would be sitting in the way back)
The vanguard instead synergize very well with most special weapons, with arc rifles being the best option. AP2 plasma is nice, but paying tripple the cost of one model is way too high a tax to make it useful. Normally I would say that anti vehicle, mixed in with anti infantry is bad, but considering the arc rifle is also S6, it completes both tasks fairly well. Also OMNISPECS EVERYTIME!
The passive toughness lowering is very situational, but has hilariously helped against both centurions and thunderwolves, allowing my S8 dragoons on the charge to double them out. SILLY!
ELITES:
Unfortunately, neither of these doods are fantastic, this section will more come to taste and personal preference than anything else.
Both unfortunately suffer from the same problem, T3 and cost.
They are both relatively fast, can take on many different types of targets (the ruststalkers more than the infiltrators) but even with a 4+ 6++ 5+++ and 2 wounds, against anything but standard infantry weapons, they will crumble. The rustalkers taken stock are one of the best jacks of all trades I have seen, they are fast, have assault grenades, can wound anything at any toughness, access to AP2, haywire for vehicles, etc. A very well rounded close combat unit that has no real defense for avoiding getting blown off the able aside from speed. Any S6 or higher, high volume of fire weapons, ie scatterlasers, high yield missile pods, autocannons, multilasers, etc will just decimate these guys. How T4 would have dramatically changed their effectveness, and likely justify their 30 point cost. Granted though, if this unit does make it to combat, holy crap can they dish out the pain. Not only can they very reliably kill knights, but they can also engage infantry, heavy infantry, MC and GMC equally. As said, the only problem is getting there...
Infiltrators...now, I LOVE these guys, their design/ look, the fact that they can pack hilarious uzis, and the tesla goad is actually pretty devastating to light infantry. These guys LEVEL hordes and blobs with impunity, with massed machine pistol fire followed by mass S5-6 hits in CC. They do have both stealth and infiltrate to get them into the fight better, and can be an amusing harass unit with the dunstrider rule. And MAN is their passive ability so mean. Shoe in for me, but many I believe will get different mileage out of these guys.
FAST:
THe one and only choice, dragoons... yes they are a bit squishy, but you can take lots of them, are priced like a terminator and are incredible as both ranged and melee platforms. In fact, choosing which platform has been my biggest debacle with this army. Their melee is fantastic, threatens so many targets and is hilarious when paired with both vanguard and infiltrators.
But most have overlooked their ranged output. Ironically, their ranged capability with jezzails plugs a lot of the holes that things like infiltrators and russtalkers face. Things like broadsides, or riptides, or jetbikes with scatter, centurions, even things like wraithknights, and any normal monstrous creature. 6 of these guys skittering around the board sounds like a really fun harass unit that on good rolls will deal devestating damage to multiwound models/units. Think, first turn throw on BS5+, shoot any target(since basically anything is in range with their speed) and laugh when you get one or more 6's throwing 2+ ap2 wounds on targets. having them with jezzails also makes using the serpentias more justified, as not only does it increase the chance of other units in your army charging, but they can lower the potential cover saves used when 6s are rolled with the jezzails.
In fact the only real issue with the jezzail dragoons is the lack of fast attack slots. I would love to have 2 units of both, but the only way this is achievable is with multiple cads or using the sub par formation.
Heavy support:
I really don't like the ballistas, I don't know why, but 55 points for an autocannon platform seems like a lot to me. I won't go too much in depth with them, as I don't exactly understand their place in the army. I would definitely like to hear others experience/ feelings about them!
Dunecrawler: Man, I really REALLY want to use these guys, but I am really not sure on a loadout. The anti-air option is the most expensive and stuck shooting at skimmers and flyers/ FMC, but it handles with devastating effect one of the armies greatest weaknesses which is flyrants. They are also able to do some damage to things like wave serpents, which is never a bad thing. I will likely always have a unit of 1-3 equipped wiht this option. The neutron laser is another story. I really REALLY want to like this weapon, 48" S10 AP1 Concussive, Blast is really fantastic, but is 115 points for a single blast and a S4 stubber really worth it? Im not sure, and have been wracking my brain to figure it out. Surprisingly many have overlooked the TL heavy phosphur blaster, which 3 TL S6 ap3 shots isn't bad, and with the phosphur rule, S6 makes it much easier to wound/ glance, making this rule more effective when used alongside other units. It is an interesting option for only 15 points, though would likely have been a more interesting one if it was 5 points cheaper.
Not sure of the usefulness of the beamer, seems chancy, idk maybe it can be good?
Anyways, this is what my research has found me
CULT MECHANICUS
Belisarius Cawl
Spoiler:
Effectively invulnerable HQ. Theoretically good in a Cohort Cybernetica, although I haven't tested it. Good in combat, but really shines as a support HQ, healing himself and his unit, and buffing things around him with Canticles of the Archmagos. His gun is neat but really not that good, due to short range. You have better anti-vehicle, but the death ray is hilarious when it instagibs something. A superior Tech-Priest Dominus. I would definitely recommend replacing the Convocation Dominus with him, if you have the points.
Tech-Priest Dominus
Spoiler:
Takes a lot of punishment for whichever unit you place him into. Has decent weapons, but really shines as a support HQ. With the relics he has access to you can make him work for a few scenarios, the classic one is to give him the IWND staff when in a unit of Kataphrons (or better, in a Cohort Cybernetica). If you don’t have much Skyfire, giving him the Raiment of Technomartyrs works with a unit of Grav Destroyers, and helps with overwatch.
What I generally do is put him in front of a unit of Grav Destroyers, and use him as a tank. He can soak anything that isn’t S8+, and whenever he’s hit by a melta or something, I LoS it to a Kataphron, which I heal with Master of Machines. Watch out for Demolisher Cannons! Any S10 AP2+ is going to be a bad time for you, as it’s instant-killing Kataphrons and the Dominus.
Kataphron Destroyers
Spoiler:
The volume of fire they can pump out is devastating, I successfully crashed a flyer with the 3 man squad on lucky rolls. Keep them in cover though, 4+ armour is not really that great and most of all these guys don't have FNP. Your opponent will focus fire on them, so make sure they are safe. I would advise on taking the Cognis Flamers only when you intend on advancing on the board with them, best with a Techpriest. Otherwise the Phosphor Blaster is not the best weapon ever but if you can reduce the cover of your target that's that. Units with Grav-Cannons rule the Meta, so take them. They do not have the Grav-Amp special rule, but a longer range and more shots per volley balances that out quite decently.
Plasma Culverin is almost never worth taking, maybe against daemons, but otherwise Grav is still the superior option.
Kataphron Breachers
Spoiler:
These guys are actually pretty good when used with the Holy Requisitioner formation or when deployed in your backline.
The Heavy Arc rifles allows for some sure way vehicle removal, being 36" one squad with these can reliably stop most vehicles in one turn.
The Torsion Cannon is a fun weapon that has a really rough time dealing with the basic BS3 of the Kataphrons. Only good against armies with MC with a bad invul save or vehicles with 10 or 11 as armour value.
Sadly it is not as good as the Arc rifles in removing vehicles, nor is it as good as the grav-cannons of the Destroyers against MC.
Breachers are not melee units. Do not charge them into enemies, and do not let them get charged. Consider them your long range haywire support.
Corpuscarii Electro-Priests [/b
Spoiler:
Nope. Far too expensive for what they do, and have no durability whatsoever. Possibly good for anti-horde in a pure Cult Mech list, but that raises the question of why you would run a pure Cult Mech army.
[b]Fulgurite Electro-Priests
Spoiler:
See above. Basically only good against multi-wound 4+ save (or worse) models.
Kastelan Robot Maniple
Spoiler:
Essentially a premade deathstar. This unit will never, ever die, and puts out a ton of S6 AP3 shooting with TL phosphor and Shooty protocols. Equally good as a CC unit with Power Fists and Conqueror protocols. Has one severe drawback, and that is speed. This unit is extremely slow. Therefore, it is better in a semi-defensive role reactively charging enemy units that get close. Being able to shoot up to 12 S6 AP3 36" Luminagen shots for just two robots is wonderful, this unit will be the bane of MEQs. They are pretty tough, and the Datasmith can tank the AP3 thanks to his Artificer Armour. They come stock with two Power Fists (that hits at their Initiative, due to them being MCs) and Torrent Flamers. The flamers aren't particularly devastating but it can very well clean up the hordes facing you before finishing them off. I play them with the twin-linked Heavy Phosphor Blasters + the carapace-mounted one. Due to them being both Luminagen and fired from an MC, you can fire the carapace-mounted ones before to hope to reduce the cover by 1 BEFORE firing your twin-linked ones. The Datasmith is really good as well, with a better save than his robots, 2+ and 5++ in CC too, plus the FNP. His pistol is powerful, and can do nice damage on vehicles should you get in range with them. As of their protocols, I only run them in a single Maniple for now, so I never tried switching off the FNP to give them this extra durability. Be advised they are not invincible, they'll fall to lots of firepower, poisoned weaponry, psykers, or generally being charged with lots of AP3 weapons. A bit expensive on points, but most certainly worth taking.
This unit always attracts a lot of fire and is an absolute nightmare for armies without Grav. I almost never bother switching protocols, since having Feel no Pain on them is absolute boss.
FORMATIONS
Sicarian Killclade and Ironstrider Cavaliers- (gameandwatch)
Spoiler:
On a different topic, I have been eyeballing the formations (more to figure out how I want to field my ruststalkers and infiltrators) just to really dissect how usable they are.
Ignoring the maniple, lets start with the killclade:
Bad stuff first:
A 4 unit tax is definitely expensive and is a large board imprint, but worst of all, not being part of a skitarii detachment means they lose crusader and scout. This is very important and will reflect how we look at the good.
The good:
12" infiltrator bubble: This is a fantastic buff, considering the bubble affects models and not units, this can really alter the survivability of your army by blanketing the enemies line in -1WS, I and LD bust most importantly, -1BS which is what most of the skitarii army is vulnerable to, massed ranged S6-7. The rustalkers also gain the ability to run and charge once per game after turn 1. Once per game is kinda meh, but considering most of these guys will likely be left in the open after their first charge maybe it isn't such a big deal. What stinks is what is mentioned in Bad Stuff, losing crusader and scout stinks as this would make a turn 2 charge pretty much guaranteed, but even with the the worst rolls, dunestrider thankfully makes up for this putting them a minimum of 26" across the board before charge rolls are made.
Ironstrider Cavaliers:
The Bad:
One thing for sure that stinks is that the formation MUST be placed in reserve, hurting the formations flexibility as a whole. Second big issue coming from the same problem is one reserve roll for the entire formation. Now, you can mitigate this with a comms relay or something, but still gives the chance of the entire formation being delayed which especially hurts the dragoons. Dragoons have dunestrider, so if they are to deploy in a normal detachment, they would instead have a near guaranteed second turn charge with scout, crusader and dunstrider. Last bad thing is the size of the model and its base. This limits deployment options when they actually do enter and your opponent can then counter this formation by deploying blob units or infiltrators along the sides of their deployment zone. Now where some confusion comes in with the formation is where they all come in: do you roll for one side for the whole formation since you roll once for their reserve roll? Or do you roll individually to see what side they arrive from?
The Good: Now, to mitigate what was just labeled in the bad, thankfully this formation rolls to see if it enters starting turn 1. A turn 1 flank alphastrike is an endeering proposition, and really messes up your opponents deployment options. As well, if you were to arrive turn 1, this near guarantees a second turn charge with the dragoons. This formation also gives you access to more of either unit, especially dragoons considering a normal detachment only has 2 fast attack slots.
The Meh?
The formation's special rules beyond the outflank rule are somewhat situational and not necessarily going to be a benefit in every game. THe shooting through your own units bit, will only apply if you are intentionally screening your ballistari with your dragoons, and reroll wounds on a character and their unit may or may not be useful.
Overall, both seem applicable, I personally would not use the ironstrider one as it can be too chancy and I want my dragoons on the board for those tasty turn 2 charges. I like the killclade the more I look at it, even though they lose crusader and scout, man oh man can they cover a HUGE distance very quickly.
Cohort Cybernetica-
Spoiler:
Be very aggressive with this.This unit is nigh unstoppable; I only lost 1 robot the whole day, no other models, and only because I rolled a 1 when trying to give the injured robot a wound back... Otherwise, their output of fire is seriously damaging, and they are also very deadly in close combat. Stick them at the frontline in a very "come at me bro" style and just blast away. After I learned the ins and outs, I was actually rarely using the extra shots command, until my opponent realized their sustainability and ignored them. It is important to not forget that they are still at base, 4 monstrous creatures, 2 powerfist datasmiths and a power axe dominus, which means getting them into close combat is not a bad thing at all. As well, even though the iwnd relic is a given on this unit, the cognis relic as well made it very deadly against flyers and fmcs so keep that in mind. Grade A+
War Convocation-
Spoiler:
This is THE Adeptus Mechanicus formation. Absolutely amazing bonuses across the board, and easily one of the top-tier armies in the game. Probably shouldn't be run in a casual environment, as Skitarii getting Canticle bonuses and free upgrades is a bit too good for casual FLGS play. With this formation, upgrade selection is basically rendered as an auto-choice. Take every upgrade you can, as everything is free, including Relics.
The downside to this formation is easily avoided, as the Cult Mech and Knight detachments in the formation are easily expandable. Lack of anti-horde in the form of Skitarii Vanguard is my only complaint, as the formation is limited to just one of each Skitarii unit.
TACTICS
Infiltrator / Ruststalker Tactics (Whiskey144)
Spoiler:
The two seem designed to complement each other- Ruststalkers are far more dangerous in combat but will have a harder time actually getting there compared to Infiltrators- both units get Dunestrider and the Skitarii Maniple detachment gives Scout moves to everybody, but the Infiltrators can, well, infiltrate up the board.
Given that Infiltrators aren't as scary in combat, they seem intended to be used in concert- the Infiltrators start much further up the board and then get a Turn 2 charge off, and impose a -1 penalty to enemy Initiative, WS, and Leadership (and BS, but we'll ignore that), so since they have WS/I 4 themselves they have a good chance of sticking around in combat for long enough for the Ruststalkers to run up and then murder the piss out of all the things.
It's not entirely clear from the currently leaked images what the Infiltrators' options are, and Ruststalkers would appear to have no guns whatsoever. I'd say that for Ruststalkers though, you'll want to swap to dual Swords rather than the Knife+Chordclaw; the spare Fleshbane attack will really only help against MCs, and the weapons all auto-Wound on 6's anyways. Not only that, but the Swords offer +1S, so on the charge Ruststalkers can get a really beast S6- S4 base, +1S for FC, and +1S for the Swords.
Oh, and then they wreck any infantry with good armor since on the second round of combat- so presumably the first round of combat when they charge/are charged, and then the second round is the next assault phase- so potentially if they got charged by, say, some GKTs for example, on the Skitarii player's turn the Ruststalkers would suddenly have AP2 combat weapons, and probably slaughter the GKTs.
Praise the Omnissiah indeed.
Also, it's not clear if the Sicarian Infiltrator's Neurostatic Aura rule can stack or if it's just a straight -1 (Note: RAW it cannot stack.); if the former... then I can see some really interesting uses for that, such as locking two units of Infiltrators into combat with some particularly nasty deathstar (or MC) and then bring in some Dragoons or Ruststalkers (or allied choppy squad) to come and smash whatever is tied up.
Gameandwatch's Take-
Spoiler:
-Though skitarii infantry may look decent on paper, and vanguard are a decent unit, especially when put in pods, they are VERY fragile and their range really hurts them. Now having played in a tourny with the army, it makes me very sad neither skitarii nor cult mech has a transport or deep strike option for these units. They overall did okay, but everygame they were wiped out. I was using 2 5 man haywire squads and 1 full 10 man stock squad, decent output, but hard to keep around or get in range. Grade b+
-Rustalkers and infiltrators...Ill start off by saying models wise these are my favorite in the army, I will never be playing without them. That being said, the obvious is just too true. toughness 3 on these guys is a travesty, plain and simple. SO often their multiple wounds and FnP counted for nothing, as there is just sooooo much 6+ firepower in the game atm. THAT being said, these guys are some of the most destructive force I have ever witnessed. Even one, of either of these units cannot be allowed to exist. Rustalkers are a terror for both infantry and vehicles (didnt get to fight any MCs), they just mow through any target they get their hands on. Infiltrators' passive ability is game changing against so many armies, and the S6 goad hits gets out of hand so quickly it is silly. I am now completely rethinking the validity of the killclade formation. Grade A
-Dragoons...are...awesome! didn't get to use them much vs infantry but man are the nasty vehicle hunters. All the dunstriders' speed (including the above 2) is incredible and man all those S8 hits just murders vehicles. So fun, and not as fragile as I thought. Grade A+
-Onagers hit hard, but are a gamble. I have tried the icarrus array version in practice, and though great against flyers and skimmers, against any army that either has no abundance of said units, or they simply aren't on the field, makes the iccarus crawlers a fairly large point sink that just stands around and snap fires at some things. Thus, I decided to try the neutron laser variant. I love the look of this gun, and coming stock with the stubber is nice. The laser itself is very nasty, and crazy accurate with orders given...but suffers from the problem all single small blasts have. It is just one small blast. It can be really nasty if it gets through, but against single targets it can be shrugged off by one roll, which is very sad. Unsure if I will field these guys in the future. Great when they work, big terrain pieces when they don't. Grade B
5 Vanguard, 2 Arc Rifles (these are rapid fire guns with haywire), plus pod is 120 points.
5 Vanguard, 2 Plasma Caliver (Assault 3 plasma), plus pod is 150 points.
Oh and because of those doctrines, when the pods drop they will shoot at BS7!
5 Vanguard, 2 Arc Rifles (these are rapid fire guns with haywire), plus pod is 120 points.
5 Vanguard, 2 Plasma Caliver (Assault 3 plasma), plus pod is 150 points.
Oh and because of those doctrines, when the pods drop they will shoot at BS7!
BS7, 4 haywire shots
or
BS7, 6 plasma shots
Good to see I have a new and exciting way to forge the narrative of Logan Grimnar's Discount Used Pod Emporium (come on down!)
5 Vanguard, 2 Arc Rifles (these are rapid fire guns with haywire), plus pod is 120 points.
5 Vanguard, 2 Plasma Caliver (Assault 3 plasma), plus pod is 150 points.
Oh and because of those doctrines, when the pods drop they will shoot at BS7!
BS7, 4 haywire shots
or
BS7, 6 plasma shots
Good to see I have a new and exciting way to forge the narrative of Logan Grimnar's Discount Used Pod Emporium (come on down!)
That's incredibly good. Reminds me of stormtek/veiltek courts. But better. How many men do you need to take 3 specials?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also BS7 is excellent counter to the gets-hot rule.
5 Vanguard, 2 Arc Rifles (these are rapid fire guns with haywire), plus pod is 120 points.
5 Vanguard, 2 Plasma Caliver (Assault 3 plasma), plus pod is 150 points.
Oh and because of those doctrines, when the pods drop they will shoot at BS7!
BS7, 4 haywire shots
or
BS7, 6 plasma shots
Good to see I have a new and exciting way to forge the narrative of Logan Grimnar's Discount Used Pod Emporium (come on down!)
That's incredibly good. Reminds me of stormtek/veiltek courts. But better. How many men do you need to take 3 specials?
10. Well for the guns I mentioned. Though the sarge can take an arc pistol or other wacky weapons i haven't looked into yet...
Arc pistol is 10 points so that'd be 5 haywire shots within 12 inches for 130 points total
one thing to note is that due to the lack of an HQ (as far as we know) you'll not be able to run a CAD thus getting objective secured on rangers isn't gonna happen
BrianDavion wrote: one thing to note is that due to the lack of an HQ (as far as we know) you'll not be able to run a CAD thus getting objective secured on rangers isn't gonna happen
It seems kind of silly that they omitted them. It's not like they don't make tech preist models.
There will be an AdMech codex later. This is Codex:Skitarii. Much in the same way the Militarum Tempestus codex came before the bigger guard codex, which did in fact have named HQs and stuff.
Good to see I have a new and exciting way to forge the narrative of Logan Grimnar's Discount Used Pod Emporium (come on down!)
I believe there's a Flesh Tearers detachments with 6 FA slots that can be used for pods, which requires a single troops choice. Sadly, Logan Grimnar has been undercut by his competition and their even deeper discounts!
5 Vanguard, 2 Arc Rifles (these are rapid fire guns with haywire), plus pod is 120 points.
5 Vanguard, 2 Plasma Caliver (Assault 3 plasma), plus pod is 150 points.
Oh and because of those doctrines, when the pods drop they will shoot at BS7!
BS7, 4 haywire shots
or
BS7, 6 plasma shots
Good to see I have a new and exciting way to forge the narrative of Logan Grimnar's Discount Used Pod Emporium (come on down!)
That's incredibly good. Reminds me of stormtek/veiltek courts. But better. How many men do you need to take 3 specials?
10. Well for the guns I mentioned. Though the sarge can take an arc pistol or other wacky weapons i haven't looked into yet...
Arc pistol is 10 points so that'd be 5 haywire shots within 12 inches for 130 points total
They look really good. From what I've seen written which is from what's been leaked 30pts for a 3 shot 18" plasma gun seems meh - but when you also get those doctrines you mentioned then it looks decent. 15 pts for 2 haywire shots is really good. How effective are their base weapons?
Good to see I have a new and exciting way to forge the narrative of Logan Grimnar's Discount Used Pod Emporium (come on down!)
In all fairness, who MAKES the Drop Pods in the first place? Logan's boys may repair, remake and even scratch build new pods, but the designs and most of the original manufacturing flows out from Mars (or other Forge Worlds). Complaining that Skitarii are coming down in Drop Pods is like complaining that Honda's corporate security guards drive Hondas. The only fluff reason the Skitarii wouldn't use Drop Pods is that they'd most likely have something even better.
Having said that, I do really like the idea of throwing in a couple of Drop Pods. Depending on what all the Formations look like, we might not have to pay ANY taxes for the Drop Pods. Remember that Formation benefits work just fine in an Unbound list. So, several Skitarii Formations plus a couple of Drop Pods is a perfectly legal list. Tournaments won't like it, but then my experience is that tournaments would prefer that Detachments and Formations in general weren't a thing and that 7th Edition had never happened.
Come someone please tell me how you are suppose to keep your warlord alive in a Skitarii force? I mean its any character, and from what I can tell there aren't any characters that can exactly hold up to a strong breeze.
the units all seem pretty great, cheap and can take in numbers. But if your "warlord" is in a 10 man ranger squad in the back... not exactly hard to get that slay the warlord if someone wants it...
Only thing I can think of is allying in some GK's for some extra staying power. Maybe a lvl 3 libby, 5 termies, and a dreadknight.
the_scotsman wrote: Good to see I have a new and exciting way to forge the narrative of Logan Grimnar's Discount Used Pod Emporium (come on down!)
Lulz.
The OP asked for competitive uses not stuff that makes sense fluff wise.
But who knows, maybe Logan is making a lot of money renting out his pods.
Believe me, he is I would at least paint my pods like AdMech stuff.
the Ad Mech make the drop pods, but then they have to use rentapods from space wolves..... The mercantilist nature of the IoM never ceases to amaze.
Rezyn wrote: Come someone please tell me how you are suppose to keep your warlord alive in a Skitarii force? I mean its any character, and from what I can tell there aren't any characters that can exactly hold up to a strong breeze.
the units all seem pretty great, cheap and can take in numbers. But if your "warlord" is in a 10 man ranger squad in the back... not exactly hard to get that slay the warlord if someone wants it...
Only thing I can think of is allying in some GK's for some extra staying power. Maybe a lvl 3 libby, 5 termies, and a dreadknight.
Your warlord is the guy who owns the drop pod sales lot. I'm thinking a blood angels dreadnought in a drop pod. Who's more likely to lead a mars force than a machine?
They look really good. From what I've seen written which is from what's been leaked 30pts for a 3 shot 18" plasma gun seems meh - but when you also get those doctrines you mentioned then it looks decent. 15 pts for 2 haywire shots is really good. How effective are their base weapons?
Vanguard, which are the slightly cheaper troops come stock with an 18 inch S3 / Ap 5 gun Assault 3 which isn't the greatest. It does however have a special rule that for every 6 you roll to wound it automatically causes 2 wounds regardless of toughness.
Rangers, which cost slightly more, have a 30 inch S4 / AP4 gun, rapid fire, with precision shots.
The Rangers gun is obviously much better. However if you're drop podding in dudes as a kinda suicide force with those haywire arc guns then Vanguard does it for cheaper.
They look really good. From what I've seen written which is from what's been leaked 30pts for a 3 shot 18" plasma gun seems meh - but when you also get those doctrines you mentioned then it looks decent. 15 pts for 2 haywire shots is really good. How effective are their base weapons?
Vanguard, which are the slightly cheaper troops come stock with an 18 inch S3 / Ap 5 gun Assault 3 which isn't the greatest. It does however have a special rule that for every 6 you roll to wound it automatically causes 2 wounds regardless of toughness.
Rangers, which cost slightly more, have a 30 inch S4 / AP4 gun, rapid fire, with precision shots.
The Rangers gun is obviously much better. However if you're drop podding in dudes as a kinda suicide force with those haywire arc guns then Vanguard does it for cheaper.
Not sure the Rangers are obviously better. They cost 20 points more and have a slightly longer range bolter with AP4. Precision shots are nice, but you have to have a target for them. A lot of armies dont run special weapons troopers. Other armies run MSU where essentially every trooper is a special weapon troopers.
The Vanguard's rad gun is awesomeness. Assault 3 and wound doubling. These guys will put a hurt on anything with a toughness value. They also give their enemy -1T in assault, which isnt great but helps a bit.
Not sure the Rangers are obviously better. They cost 20 points more and have a slightly longer range bolter with AP4. Precision shots are nice, but you have to have a target for them. A lot of armies dont run special weapons troopers. Other armies run MSU where essentially every trooper is a special weapon troopers.
The Vanguard's rad gun is awesomeness. Assault 3 and wound doubling. These guys will put a hurt on anything with a toughness value. They also give their enemy -1T in assault, which isnt great but helps a bit.
You make some good points. Rad gun is only S3 though, which yes is mitigated by their special rule with 6s counting as double wounds. But their range is also only 18. And it is AP5 rather than AP4.
Rangers make more sense for holding objectives or hanging back a bit as their regular gun hits things from 30 inches away. And yes precision shot isn't always useful, but in cases it can be pretty damn helpful. And AP4 of course negates armor saves that some armies have, whereas AP5 would not.
If Skitarii are in pods, I say Vanguard all the way because they are cheaper and in close range. But I definitely see a use for the Rangers elsewhere.
If I want to put Vanguard in Chimeras, do I have to start them outside of it turn one and then have them hop in and leave the AM soldiers on foot: sorry, noob question -- have never allied
Rezyn wrote: Come someone please tell me how you are suppose to keep your warlord alive in a Skitarii force? I mean its any character, and from what I can tell there aren't any characters that can exactly hold up to a strong breeze.
the units all seem pretty great, cheap and can take in numbers. But if your "warlord" is in a 10 man ranger squad in the back... not exactly hard to get that slay the warlord if someone wants it...
Only thing I can think of is allying in some GK's for some extra staying power. Maybe a lvl 3 libby, 5 termies, and a dreadknight.
10 man unit
60 fethin inch snipers
go hide in a ruin somewhere or a bunker
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jSewell wrote: If I want to put Vanguard in Chimeras, do I have to start them outside of it turn one and then have them hop in and leave the AM soldiers on foot: sorry, noob question -- have never allied
Yes as they are DT
they will probably move to FA by the time 7th ed IG get released
Not sure the Rangers are obviously better. They cost 20 points more and have a slightly longer range bolter with AP4. Precision shots are nice, but you have to have a target for them. A lot of armies dont run special weapons troopers. Other armies run MSU where essentially every trooper is a special weapon troopers.
The Vanguard's rad gun is awesomeness. Assault 3 and wound doubling. These guys will put a hurt on anything with a toughness value. They also give their enemy -1T in assault, which isnt great but helps a bit.
You make some good points. Rad gun is only S3 though, which yes is mitigated by their special rule with 6s counting as double wounds. But their range is also only 18. And it is AP5 rather than AP4.
Rangers make more sense for holding objectives or hanging back a bit as their regular gun hits things from 30 inches away. And yes precision shot isn't always useful, but in cases it can be pretty damn helpful. And AP4 of course negates armor saves that some armies have, whereas AP5 would not.
If Skitarii are in pods, I say Vanguard all the way because they are cheaper and in close range. But I definitely see a use for the Rangers elsewhere.
Vanguard 18" is the problem. Being str3 is completely mitigated by RoF and the wound doubling.
Against T3 T4 and T5 you are getting the same number of wounds as Str4
Against T6+ you are getting double the wounds of Str4
But it's assault 3! 50% more shots than a rapid fire weapon in rapid fire range, but out to 18" instead of 12.
Verviedi wrote: Thoughts on the Ruststalkers and Infiltrators?
The two seem designed to complement each other- Ruststalkers are far more dangerous in combat but will have a harder time actually getting there compared to Infiltrators- both units get Dunestrider and the Skitarii Maniple detachment gives Scout moves to everybody, but the Infiltrators can, well, infiltrate up the board.
Given that Infiltrators aren't as scary in combat, they seem intended to be used in concert- the Infiltrators start much further up the board and then get a Turn 2 charge off, and impose a -1 penalty to enemy Initiative, WS, and Leadership (and BS, but we'll ignore that), so since they have WS/I 4 themselves they have a good chance of sticking around in combat for long enough for the Ruststalkers to run up and then murder the piss out of all the things.
It's not entirely clear from the currently leaked images what the Infiltrators' options are, and Ruststalkers would appear to have no guns whatsoever. I'd say that for Ruststalkers though, you'll want to swap to dual Swords rather than the Knife+Chordclaw; the spare Fleshbane attack will really only help against MCs, and the weapons all auto-Wound on 6's anyways. Not only that, but the Swords offer +1S, so on the charge Ruststalkers can get a really beast S6- S4 base, +1S for FC, and +1S for the Swords.
Oh, and then they wreck any infantry with good armor since on the second round of combat- so presumably the first round of combat when they charge/are charged, and then the second round is the next assault phase- so potentially if they got charged by, say, some GKTs for example, on the Skitarii player's turn the Ruststalkers would suddenly have AP2 combat weapons, and probably slaughter the GKTs.
Praise the Omnissiah indeed.
Also, it's not clear if the Sicarian Infiltrator's Neurostatic Aura rule can stack or if it's just a straight -1; if the former... then I can see some really interesting uses for that, such as locking two units of Infiltrators into combat with some particularly nasty deathstar (or MC) and then bring in some Dragoons or Ruststalkers (or allied choppy squad) to come and smash whatever is tied up.
Also, am I the only one who thinks that the Ironstrider Ballistarii are now terrible because Onager Dunewalkers are amazing and going to probably be way more important?
As an anti-air platform, the Onager is just way better since it gets Skyfire with the Icarus array; given that Serpent spam is still a thing, said Icarus Array is also still pretty chill against Serpents, since Skyfire does permit full-BS against Skimmers and Jetbikes. The Neutron Laser is expensive- especially if you take a full squadron of Onagers equipped with it- but you'll pretty much crack open almost any armored vehicle in the game, and at a longer distance than the goofy Eradication Beamer.
Oh, and Onagers in 3-strong squadrons get a 4++, which vastly improves their survivability as AV12 walkers.
Verviedi wrote: Thoughts on the Ruststalkers and Infiltrators?
The two seem designed to complement each other- Ruststalkers are far more dangerous in combat but will have a harder time actually getting there compared to Infiltrators- both units get Dunestrider and the Skitarii Maniple detachment gives Scout moves to everybody, but the Infiltrators can, well, infiltrate up the board.
Given that Infiltrators aren't as scary in combat, they seem intended to be used in concert- the Infiltrators start much further up the board and then get a Turn 2 charge off, and impose a -1 penalty to enemy Initiative, WS, and Leadership (and BS, but we'll ignore that), so since they have WS/I 4 themselves they have a good chance of sticking around in combat for long enough for the Ruststalkers to run up and then murder the piss out of all the things.
It's not entirely clear from the currently leaked images what the Infiltrators' options are, and Ruststalkers would appear to have no guns whatsoever. I'd say that for Ruststalkers though, you'll want to swap to dual Swords rather than the Knife+Chordclaw; the spare Fleshbane attack will really only help against MCs, and the weapons all auto-Wound on 6's anyways. Not only that, but the Swords offer +1S, so on the charge Ruststalkers can get a really beast S6- S4 base, +1S for FC, and +1S for the Swords.
Oh, and then they wreck any infantry with good armor since on the second round of combat- so presumably the first round of combat when they charge/are charged, and then the second round is the next assault phase- so potentially if they got charged by, say, some GKTs for example, on the Skitarii player's turn the Ruststalkers would suddenly have AP2 combat weapons, and probably slaughter the GKTs.
Praise the Omnissiah indeed.
Also, it's not clear if the Sicarian Infiltrator's Neurostatic Aura rule can stack or if it's just a straight -1; if the former... then I can see some really interesting uses for that, such as locking two units of Infiltrators into combat with some particularly nasty deathstar (or MC) and then bring in some Dragoons or Ruststalkers (or allied choppy squad) to come and smash whatever is tied up.
I actually like the infiltrators in combat. With the taser + pistol the can run up and unload a ton of peppery shots and then charge in. Those extra hits from the tazer will mean they will likely hit almost as many times as they have attacks. Then all those hits are str6. So 5 of them get 15 attacks, 15 hits, 12 wounds. Yes they allow armor saves but that isn't a pathetic number of wounds for 5 charging models.
Also, am I the only one who thinks that the Ironstrider Ballistarii are now terrible because Onager Dunewalkers are amazing and going to probably be way more important?
As an anti-air platform, the Onager is just way better since it gets Skyfire with the Icarus array; given that Serpent spam is still a thing, said Icarus Array is also still pretty chill against Serpents, since Skyfire does permit full-BS against Skimmers and Jetbikes. The Neutron Laser is expensive- especially if you take a full squadron of Onagers equipped with it- but you'll pretty much crack open almost any armored vehicle in the game, and at a longer distance than the goofy Eradication Beamer.
Oh, and Onagers in 3-strong squadrons get a 4++, which vastly improves their survivability as AV12 walkers.
Do we know how much the Neutron Laser is? I thought we only knew the Icarus Array price
jSewell wrote: If I want to put Vanguard in Chimeras, do I have to start them outside of it turn one and then have them hop in and leave the AM soldiers on foot: sorry, noob question -- have never allied
Yes as they are DT
they will probably move to FA by the time 7th ed IG get released
Is there any downside to this other than they'd be vulnerable if you don't have first turn?
Exergy wrote: I actually like the infiltrators in combat. With the taser + pistol the can run up and unload a ton of peppery shots and then charge in. Those extra hits from the tazer will mean they will likely hit almost as many times as they have attacks. Then all those hits are str6. So 5 of them get 15 attacks, 15 hits, 12 wounds. Yes they allow armor saves but that isn't a pathetic number of wounds for 5 charging models.
I'm not trying to put down Infiltrators- however it just seems to me that they are really designed to function as a roundabout delivery system for the Ruststalkers- the Infiltrators can pin down and start thinning out an enemy, and then the Ruststalkers can come in and kill all the things. It comes off as being that Infiltrators are good in their own right- but they become an enormously useful force multiplier for the Ruststalkers.
Exergy wrote: Do we know how much the Neutron Laser is? I thought we only knew the Icarus Array price
In regards to the Neutron Laser pricing... there was something I saw that pegged it at 45 points, but it was also unsourced, so I don't know if its actually reliable or not. Given that that's the same price as the Icarus Array, there may have been a mixup on that front. Still, I would actually expect the Neutron Laser to be pretty pricey anyways.
It is interesting, however, that Onagers are basically best when field in a sort of anti-MSU setup; rather than taking several Onagers solo, you'll really want to group them up in full-strength squadrons, so as to really maximum the benefit of their invulnerable save rules that allow them to get a 4++ at full strength.
Also, Onagers are AV11 rear, which is somewhat unusual for a walker; on the flipside, they're absolutely terrible in combat. WS3 is okay-ish, but I2 and only one Attack really means that if they get caught in an assault they'll probably spend the rest of the game tied up. Probably want to keep some Flechette Blaster/Taser Goad Infiltrators nearby to rescue them.
That being said, if possible I'd probably want Neutron Lasers for anti-armor duty, since they get S10/AP1 throughout their entire range. In contrast, the Eradication Beamer basically has a reverse Conversion Beamer profile- instead of getting better at longer range, it actually loses raw power and gains AoE.
As an example, Conversion Beamers have the following profile:
Spoiler:
0-18" Heavy 1 S6 AP- 3" Blast
18-42" Heavy 1 S8 AP4 3" Blast
42-72" Heavy 1 S10 AP1 3" Blast
Which honestly, I'mt not super impressed with the Eradication Beamer. It's kind of neat and quirky, but I don't think it's a great option- AV12/4++ is better than AV12, but it's not something like an AV13/14 deathbawks with some kind of megadeath gun like a Demolisher Cannon; at short range it's very killy against vehicles while at short/mid range it's potentially nasty against MEQ and vehicles.
At it's longer ranges it's quite unpleasant for T3 or low-save infantry models, particularly with the pie-plate scale template... but considering the other weapons that the Onager can bring, I don't think that the Eradication Beamer is really a great option. If you're bringing it along at really low point levels- like 500-700 or so- then you're probably better off with Ballistarii if you leave the Onager stock.
At larger levels, the Onager comes into its own much better, particularly as a fairly nasty anti-air platform.
What does anyone else think about the Onager vs the Ironstriders?
jSewell wrote: If I want to put Vanguard in Chimeras, do I have to start them outside of it turn one and then have them hop in and leave the AM soldiers on foot: sorry, noob question -- have never allied
Yes as they are DT
they will probably move to FA by the time 7th ed IG get released
Is there any downside to this other than they'd be vulnerable if you don't have first turn?
Exergy wrote: Do we know how much the Neutron Laser is? I thought we only knew the Icarus Array price
In regards to the Neutron Laser pricing... there was something I saw that pegged it at 45 points, but it was also unsourced, so I don't know if its actually reliable or not. Given that that's the same price as the Icarus Array, there may have been a mixup on that front. Still, I would actually expect the Neutron Laser to be pretty pricey anyways.
It is interesting, however, that Onagers are basically best when field in a sort of anti-MSU setup; rather than taking several Onagers solo, you'll really want to group them up in full-strength squadrons, so as to really maximum the benefit of their invulnerable save rules that allow them to get a 4++ at full strength.
Also, Onagers are AV11 rear, which is somewhat unusual for a walker; on the flipside, they're absolutely terrible in combat. WS3 is okay-ish, but I2 and only one Attack really means that if they get caught in an assault they'll probably spend the rest of the game tied up. Probably want to keep some Flechette Blaster/Taser Goad Infiltrators nearby to rescue them.
That being said, if possible I'd probably want Neutron Lasers for anti-armor duty, since they get S10/AP1 throughout their entire range. In contrast, the Eradication Beamer basically has a reverse Conversion Beamer profile- instead of getting better at longer range, it actually loses raw power and gains AoE.
Which honestly, I'mt not super impressed with the Eradication Beamer. It's kind of neat and quirky, but I don't think it's a great option- AV12/4++ is better than AV12, but it's not something like an AV13/14 deathbawks with some kind of megadeath gun like a Demolisher Cannon; at short range it's very killy against vehicles while at short/mid range it's potentially nasty against MEQ and vehicles.
At it's longer ranges it's quite unpleasant for T3 or low-save infantry models, particularly with the pie-plate scale template... but considering the other weapons that the Onager can bring, I don't think that the Eradication Beamer is really a great option. If you're bringing it along at really low point levels- like 500-700 or so- then you're probably better off with Ballistarii if you leave the Onager stock.
At larger levels, the Onager comes into its own much better, particularly as a fairly nasty anti-air platform.
What does anyone else think about the Onager vs the Ironstriders?
Agreed they are terrible in CC. They might need some sort of CC babysitter. They kind of remind me of forgefiends, which are a little better in CC but still rather bad.
The Eradication beamer is wholly disapointing. You likely will never be at the correct range to get the shot you want. For the pieplate, it's an expensive whirlwind with no way to remove cover. For the small blast, it's like an expensive Noise Marine sonic blaster that doesnt ignore cover. For the single shot, dam you are close at 9" away. A multimelta is better at that range, except in ability to ID T5 things.
The Neutron Laser looks awesome, so yes probably expensive. Str10 Ap1 at range, with the doctrine imperitives they could hit a signifigant portion of the time.
The icarus array looks nice as you said for AA and for skimmers.
The safety in numbers thing will be interesting. 3 of them getting a 4++ doesnt sound bad, but once they start to lose one it starts going downhill.
If the shield extends to other units, they will be much better than if not. Particularly with those large bases, a 4" bubble is a lot of realestate
Exergy wrote: I actually like the infiltrators in combat. With the taser + pistol the can run up and unload a ton of peppery shots and then charge in. Those extra hits from the tazer will mean they will likely hit almost as many times as they have attacks. Then all those hits are str6. So 5 of them get 15 attacks, 15 hits, 12 wounds. Yes they allow armor saves but that isn't a pathetic number of wounds for 5 charging models.
I'm not trying to put down Infiltrators- however it just seems to me that they are really designed to function as a roundabout delivery system for the Ruststalkers- the Infiltrators can pin down and start thinning out an enemy, and then the Ruststalkers can come in and kill all the things. It comes off as being that Infiltrators are good in their own right- but they become an enormously useful force multiplier for the Ruststalkers.
The ruststalkers are a little nastier in CC, particularly against things with 2+ saves that you might be able to last against for a second round....(broadsides?) most other things are probably gonna wipe them before they get to round 2, unless you have another unit there to tank hits.
The rustalkers have grenades though. Really tasty grenades that are both assault grenades and haywire grenades. And they can be thrown for 4+ to wound blast. It's like the best grenade ever given to a squad(psycotrope).
I'm really liking the sound of a squadron of 3 Onagers with Neutron. First turn, turn on that BS7 and your S10AP1 blasts will very likely hit whatever they are trying to hit. You would literally have to roll a 9+ on your 2D6 scatter to not hit what you centered the blast on, vehicles are large too so there's that.
I would say the tactic with the Rust Stalkers is pretty self-explanatory. Get them to combat, and first round doesn't matter much. Turn on that +3 or +2 WS ability on the second round so your now AP2 attacks are hitting on 3s against the targets they are made to attack- WS 4 or below infantry. These guys aren't going to kill MCs or high WS stuff like Lictors I think. The Synergy mentioned with the Infiltrators is pretty interesting, I look forward to seeing the first battle reports on youtube.
You know, this is occurring to me really late, but the base Vanguard guns causing 2-auto-wounds ignoring toughness, on sixes is going to just decimate certain troublesome units. Wraithknights, and half of the Tyranid Codex are gonna be crying.
Not sure the Rangers are obviously better. They cost 20 points more and have a slightly longer range bolter with AP4. Precision shots are nice, but you have to have a target for them. A lot of armies dont run special weapons troopers. Other armies run MSU where essentially every trooper is a special weapon troopers.
The Vanguard's rad gun is awesomeness. Assault 3 and wound doubling. These guys will put a hurt on anything with a toughness value. They also give their enemy -1T in assault, which isnt great but helps a bit.
You make some good points. Rad gun is only S3 though, which yes is mitigated by their special rule with 6s counting as double wounds. But their range is also only 18. And it is AP5 rather than AP4.
Rangers make more sense for holding objectives or hanging back a bit as their regular gun hits things from 30 inches away. And yes precision shot isn't always useful, but in cases it can be pretty damn helpful. And AP4 of course negates armor saves that some armies have, whereas AP5 would not.
If Skitarii are in pods, I say Vanguard all the way because they are cheaper and in close range. But I definitely see a use for the Rangers elsewhere.
Vanguard 18" is the problem. Being str3 is completely mitigated by RoF and the wound doubling.
Against T3 T4 and T5 you are getting the same number of wounds as Str4
Against T6+ you are getting double the wounds of Str4
But it's assault 3! 50% more shots than a rapid fire weapon in rapid fire range, but out to 18" instead of 12.
Hmm, you actually crunched the numbers. The Rad Carbines are better than I thought!
Wait, did you crunch the numbers? The following is mostly for my own benefit lol.
12 hits, with generic S4 gun
S4 at T3: 8 wounds
S4 at T4: 6 wounds
S4 at T5: 4 wounds
S3 at T6: 2 wounds
12 hits, Rad carbine:
S3 at T3: I have no idea how to do the math on this. Let's see. On average two sixes will be rolled, so that's 4 wounds. Plus any 4 or 5s rolled, which would occur 1/3 of the time. 1/3 of 12 is another 4. 4+ 4 is 8.
S3 at T4: Again, 4 wounds from the 6s rolled. Plus any 5s rolled, which happens 1/6 of the time. So twice with 12 rolls. So that equals 6 total.
S3 at T5: 4 wounds from 6s. Since only 6 wounds it is 4 total.
S3 at T6-T9000: 4 wounds from the 6s
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: You know, this is occurring to me really late, but the base Vanguard guns causing 2-auto-wounds ignoring toughness, on sixes is going to just decimate certain troublesome units. Wraithknights, and half of the Tyranid Codex are gonna be crying.
yeah, but unless their save is 5+ or worse, they will be fearing Eldar Shurkiens more. Those also autowound on a 6 but also ignore saves. A 3+ save MC would much rather take 2 wounds they can save rather than 1 wound they cannot save.
Exergy wrote: Agreed they are terrible in CC. They might need some sort of CC babysitter. They kind of remind me of forgefiends, which are a little better in CC but still rather bad.
The Eradication beamer is wholly disapointing. You likely will never be at the correct range to get the shot you want. For the pieplate, it's an expensive whirlwind with no way to remove cover. For the small blast, it's like an expensive Noise Marine sonic blaster that doesnt ignore cover. For the single shot, dam you are close at 9" away. A multimelta is better at that range, except in ability to ID T5 things.
It's even worse when you consider that you can (still, AFAIK) bring a 5-man Legion of the Damned squad with a MM, Plasma Gun and combi-plas for 160 points, and they're all Relentless (SnP actually, which is pretty close). More importantly, if you want close range anti-armor, that MM+Plas+Combi-plas unit can do a Turn 1 DS, that re-rolls scatter, and at 12" can pump 4 S7/AP2 and one S8/AP1/Armorbane shot into rear armor, and all of those shots ignore cover. Suck on that, Serpent Spam!
That might actually be a good way to supplement an otherwise pure Skitarii force, to get some backfield shenanigans going.
Exergy wrote: The safety in numbers thing will be interesting. 3 of them getting a 4++ doesnt sound bad, but once they start to lose one it starts going downhill.
If the shield extends to other units, they will be much better than if not. Particularly with those large bases, a 4" bubble is a lot of realestate
Yeah, unfortunately there isn't much information about the shield... from the relevant rumor thread it seems like each Onager starts with a 6++ and gets a +1 invuln bonus for each other Onager within 4" of it- which also means that they'll want to be deployed in a triangular formation so as to make sure they get the +2 for a 4++- but there's nothing else about it.
I do agree, it would be positively awesome if the Onager's shield extended that 4++ to anybody within the bubble formed by the Onagers.
Exergy wrote: The ruststalkers are a little nastier in CC, particularly against things with 2+ saves that you might be able to last against for a second round....(broadsides?) most other things are probably gonna wipe them before they get to round 2, unless you have another unit there to tank hits.
The rustalkers have grenades though. Really tasty grenades that are both assault grenades and haywire grenades. And they can be thrown for 4+ to wound blast. It's like the best grenade ever given to a squad(psycotrope).
Ruststalkers are better in combat, certainly- the real bonus, IMO, is combining that with the debuff of the Infiltrator's Neurostatic Aura, as this means that common GEQ, for example, are reduced to WS/I 2 and Ld7 at best! Not only will you hit them on fours, but it's possible that the Ruststalkers will only be hit on 5s, which is really impressive.
That said... the Infiltrator+Ruststalker (or Infiltrator+Dragoon) shenanigans that are possible will really be heavily dependent on whether or not the Neurostatic Aura stacks- it's not entirely clear if it does or not. Also, I second that the Ruststalker's unique grenades are awesome- they'll basically end up being on the level of the old 5th-Ed DE book's Wyches with Haywire grenades.
ultimentra wrote: I'm really liking the sound of a squadron of 3 Onagers with Neutron. First turn, turn on that BS7 and your S10AP1 blasts will very likely hit whatever they are trying to hit. You would literally have to roll a 9+ on your 2D6 scatter to not hit what you centered the blast on, vehicles are large too so there's that.
I would say the tactic with the Rust Stalkers is pretty self-explanatory. Get them to combat, and first round doesn't matter much. Turn on that +3 or +2 WS ability on the second round so your now AP2 attacks are hitting on 3s against the targets they are made to attack- WS 4 or below infantry. These guys aren't going to kill MCs or high WS stuff like Lictors I think. The Synergy mentioned with the Infiltrators is pretty interesting, I look forward to seeing the first battle reports on youtube.
Against MCs you can combine the Infiltrator's Neurostatic Aura and a charge of Sydonian Dragoons to get WS4 S8/I6 attacks (4 apiece on the charge, IIRC), and most MCs will be reduced to WS3.
Against a WK, for example, you'll push it down to WS3/I4, and say 3 Dragoons charge it, you'll get 4x3=12 attacks, at S8, hitting on 3+, so 8 hits, 4 wounds due to S8 vs T8- unfortunately Taser Lances are AP-, so you'll have a little bit of a harder time getting through. Of course, you'll also average around, say, 2 6's doing so, so you'll actually push up to I think 4 extra hits, so a total of 6 wounds, going against 3+ armor for 2 wounds inflicted.
.....Which actually doesn't sound nearly as awesome as it started out in my head. Le sigh.
At least the Dragoons will wreck 90% of things with an AV- you'll probably crack open any AV12-front armor walker in the game, and you'd definitely kill any AV10-rear vehicle on the charge... come to think of it, Dragoons might actually be a better counter to Wave Serpents than a Haywire drop.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: You know, this is occurring to me really late, but the base Vanguard guns causing 2-auto-wounds ignoring toughness, on sixes is going to just decimate certain troublesome units. Wraithknights, and half of the Tyranid Codex are gonna be crying.
Statistically speaking, you'll put around 2 unsaved wounds onto a T6/3+ armor MC that way. Not super impressive, though it is nice. I'd say that most T6 MCs aren't going to much care about Radium Carbines- anything with Bladestorm is honestly a lot scarier to a Carnifex or something than Radium Carbines, since Bladestorm get to auto-wound with AP2.
Of course, statistically speaking, you'll also put around 2 unsaved wounds onto a T8 MC like the Wraithknight, which is much more impressive.
On the whole... I think that the Ironstrider Ballistarii- the HS variant- will be overshadowed by the Onager.
However, given that both the Ironstrider and the Dragoon are relatively cheap, the Skitarii Maniple detachment actually gets 4HS slots, and Onagers are going to want to be squadroned up to get that 4++ for themselves, they might be a viable way to get some heavy weapons on the field.
For anti-air duty AC Ironstriders look good... but they're really a "trap" unit for that role. Onagers can get a hugely awesome and shooty weapon system that's all about Skyfire, so Ironstriders- which only really get AA duty because they fire Snap Shots at BS2, and all their guns are twin-linked- are completely overshadowed in that regard.
LC Ironstriders might be one of the only practical ways to bring economic AP2/AP1, high-strength shooting to the army. OTOH, the basic AC Ironstrider is a capable platform, and given that mass S7 is generally better for killing... anything really... I feel like the LC Ironstrider will likely be left in the dust anyways.
For the Sydonian Dragoons... hot damn these things are badass! You end up with around 4 S8 Initiative 6 attacks on the charge, and in subsequent rounds you get- I think- 3 S7 attacks. Any kind of AV12 or poorer vehicle that they end up in combat with is absolutely screwed, and with the mass of S8 strikes- plus the benefits of Taser- you'll be putting an enormous pain on any T4 multi-wound infantry, and any T6 MCs.
Oh, and Dragoons get Phosphor Serpentas to more reliably charge things and reduce cover saves! You could trade your Taser Lance for a Radium Jezzail- a double tapping Sniper version of the Radium Carbine- but I rather doubt that that's going to be a generally practical trade. The Taser Lance's mass of S8 attacks on the charge is simply too awesome.
Combine that with the 3" movement bonus to any move it makes, and you have a fast cavalry walker. Season to taste with Sicarian Infiltrators to reduce the WS/I of anything you want them to charge; season with Ruststalkers to help them get out of combat (by murdering the piss out of whatever they charged) and then go charge something else!
The nice thing about the Sydonian Dragoons is really that they're the only FA unit- while you only get two FA slots, there is literally only one unit to stick in there, so there's no slot competition.
I mean, with the Skitarii Maniple Detachment there's not really any slot competition going on- a little bit in Elites if you want to try for MSU Infiltrators or Ruststalkers, but for everything else- Onagers want to be in big squads, 8 max Troop slots means that it has to get to ridiculous levels to wonder whether or not you should bring Vanguards or Rangers, while, as mentioned, Dragoons are the only thing in FA.
Overall, I'd say that for the most part, the Onager ends up being a better weapon platform- it's AV12/12/11, 3HPs, it's not open topped, and it gets a fancy shield rule for a 4++ if all three are within 4" coherency of each other.
Dragoons though... yeah, I'd say that they have some definite uses. They might be paper thin, but they're economical (point-wise) little buggers that'll wreck face once they get into combat.
TBH, I think Dragoons might be a fantastic Serpent killer- just two Dragoons will dump 8x S8 attacks on the charge, and even with a 50% hitrate, you'll generally strip around 3 HPs just from S8 vs AV10- most of those hits will actually be pens, but when you're punching hard enough to hull out a vehicle in a single round of combat, in no longer matters if you're getting pens.
Dragoons also get a fancy 5+ cover save built-in, so they're a little bit tougher while they close the gap.
For anti-air duty AC Ironstriders look good... but they're really a "trap" unit for that role. Onagers can get a hugely awesome and shooty weapon system that's all about Skyfire, so Ironstriders- which only really get AA duty because they fire Snap Shots at BS2, and all their guns are twin-linked- are completely overshadowed in that regard.
I don't see it as a trap so much as a "secondary role" you don't take an ironstrider as your anti-air. you can however if you have one, use it in that role. basicly I'd never take an ironstrider specificly for anti-air (skitarii have a dedicated platform) but I'd certinly shoot at a flier if I had one anyway
I was under the impression the "Orders" or doctrines affected your entire army. So boosting WS by 2 and dropping BS by 2 for a turn would need to be planned out. It's great if you nuke your opponents anti CC unit, or even deathstar in 1 turn, but if you gimp the rest of your army idk if it will be a valuable trade-off.
This army really feels like a great allied force as opposed to a viable standalone army. They will be able to fill in holes in other codices such as AA with that Icarus Missile Launcher, or AP2 fire with the Assault 3 plasma guns. I guess we just need an allies matrix for them to see how they will interact with Dedicated Transports.
Poly Ranger wrote: Im jealous. Where are you all getting these rules from? Google searches only give me german translations!
Automatically Appended Next Post: The dex isn't avaliable even for pre-order on the site yet...
Are these in WDs?
Check the relevant rumor thread on the appropriate board; the current Ruststalker/Infiltrator rules are on pages 92/93, along with some of the info for Onagers, but I don't really know where the rest are aside from "in that thread", unfortunately.
And yes, the rules are currently being either straight leaked or coming from WD leaks.
Wingeds wrote: I was under the impression the "Orders" or doctrines affected your entire army. So boosting WS by 2 and dropping BS by 2 for a turn would need to be planned out. It's great if you nuke your opponents anti CC unit, or even deathstar in 1 turn, but if you gimp the rest of your army idk if it will be a valuable trade-off.
This army really feels like a great allied force as opposed to a viable standalone army. They will be able to fill in holes in other codices such as AA with that Icarus Missile Launcher, or AP2 fire with the Assault 3 plasma guns. I guess we just need an allies matrix for them to see how they will interact with Dedicated Transports.
In regards to the "Doctrina Imperatives" rule, then yes, it's a one-use, one-turn effect across the entire army. So you would be correct- for the higher effects, it'll require a lot of planning out. However, it's not a straight "-2 WS and +2 BS" or vice versa; it's actually a graduated scale:
So comparing the two, the bonus is usually slightly better than the equivalent penalty.
Also, it's worth noting that Skitarii are almost certainly classified as "Imperium of Man", and thus will be Battle Brothers with all the Imperial armies. So yes, SW/BA Rent-A-Pods are a go.
Weird that I am saying that to a human rather than my drink lol. First time for everything.
PS - Still can't decide if it is better to field more Rangers or more Vanguard. The 30 inch range on the Rangers' gun (pun not intended) is nice but the most common pick for a special weapon will probably be the Arc Rifle. Which is 24 inches rather than 30. Yeah the plasma can be good, especially with the doctrines, and the sniper rifle can be good, but the arc rifles are so much cheaper, especially considering people will probably field 3 specials per ten man squad. So Rangers are going to want to be within 24. Vanguard wants to be within 18. Not a huge difference. And ten man Ranger squads are 20 points more per squad than Vanguard squads. Decisions, decisions...
I think that ultimately Rangers vs Vanguard will actually be a case of personal preference/playstyle, the meta of your group, or just striking a balance between them.
Rangers do have the advantage that they're probably a better pick for parking on a backfield objective, as with a 30" basic gun they're more likely to be able to contribute few potshots to the battle. The Galvanic Rifles also synergize a bit better with the Transuranic Arquebus (which has probably the coolest name of any gun in 40K).
Rangers do also get Move through Cover, so on boards with lots of area terrain they might end up being an overall better pick.
OTOH, if you face lots of 3+ armor MCs (like Wraithknights) then the 2 auto-wounds on a 6 that Radium Carbines give will probably be more valuable than 30" AP4 and Precision Shots.
A lot of people seem to be assuming that all Onager Dunestriders get the shield, but I thought it was part of one of the weapon-upgrades (the AA one, if I recall correctly).
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just noticed that a Ruststalker Princeps with two transonic blades can also get an extra chordclaw. That seems rather pointless; he doesn't get another bonus attack from a third weapon, does he?
Perfect Organism wrote: A lot of people seem to be assuming that all Onager Dunestriders get the shield, but I thought it was part of one of the weapon-upgrades (the AA one, if I recall correctly).
After looking at the rumor thread where the bit about the Onager was posted... it's not really clear. It seems like it might be part of the AA package- which actually wouldn't be that bad, because it'd be a good anti-WS platform that way- but it might be a separate option.
Truth be told, I think it would be perfectly reasonable for it to be a separate option.
Perfect Organism wrote: Just noticed that a Ruststalker Princeps with two transonic blades can also get an extra chordclaw. That seems rather pointless; he doesn't get another bonus attack from a third weapon, does he?
Chordclaws let you roll a separate attack that has Fleshbane. The wording of the rules for the Chordclaw is... not quite clear, IMO. It seems at first like you take one of the normal attacks of a model, and roll that attack separately, since it has the Fleshbane rule in addition to the Transonic rule. OTOH... it says specifically to "roll this attack separately", so does that mean you'll roll for attacks as normal- except deducting an attack to allow for the Chordclaw- and then roll for the Chordclaw's Fleshbane attack, OR, do you get a separate attack not included in the model's profile that is rolled for in the same sort of order?
Depending on the interpretation, it could mean that Chordclaws actually confer an entire extra attack that's not part of the model's profile. Which would actually be pretty nice for the Ruststalker Princeps if he gets into a challenge. However, if it's that you basically just get to split up your attacks, it's not quite as nice for a Princeps to take.
And then it gets really hairy, because how do the Chordclaws interact with Transonic Blades? The Blades give +1S, while Chordclaws confer the Molecular Dissonance rule to get the previously mentioned Fleshbane attack... but neither one is a Specialist Weapon, so presumably they're just two CCWs, relatively speaking. Adding to the complication, the Prehensile Dataspike wargear explicitly provides an additional attack (and at I10 with Haywire no less!)... but the Chordclaw isn't cut-and-dried that it does (or does not) do so.
Also, totally irrelevant, but I just read the description of the Mindscrambler Grenades.
It's a grenade that is actually (at least in part) the eggsac of a squid. I find the thought that my little machine men are throwing the equivalent of sushi at tanks and blowing them up to be... amusing, to say the least.
Doing the math I would rather take a 10 man unit of rangers with 3 arc rifles infiltrate and scout for like 10 more points than the 5 man with 5 arc shoots
I'm just glad that they have a 40mm base size unit so I can use my Thallax as a proxy. Will likely sub them in for Infiltrators, even though I really like the infiltrator heads.
Whiskey144 wrote: I think that ultimately Rangers vs Vanguard will actually be a case of personal preference/playstyle, the meta of your group, or just striking a balance between them.
Rangers do have the advantage that they're probably a better pick for parking on a backfield objective, as with a 30" basic gun they're more likely to be able to contribute few potshots to the battle. The Galvanic Rifles also synergize a bit better with the Transuranic Arquebus (which has probably the coolest name of any gun in 40K).
Rangers do also get Move through Cover, so on boards with lots of area terrain they might end up being an overall better pick.
Vanguard just to soo much more damage to things not in 4+ armor, and a lot of the game has armor other than 4+
I think you want enough Vanguard to scout up the field and press the enemy, but a few rangers to sit a little further back and try and snipe out a special weapons or two.
If I were taking 50, I would have 30 Vanguard easily, maybe 40.
And for Vanguard, there is not much reason to take anything but arc rifles. Plasma is nice, but too pricey and the Carbines should help you with anti infantry enough. TDA isnt that prevalent.
Perfect Organism wrote: A lot of people seem to be assuming that all Onager Dunestriders get the shield, but I thought it was part of one of the weapon-upgrades (the AA one, if I recall correctly).
After looking at the rumor thread where the bit about the Onager was posted... it's not really clear. It seems like it might be part of the AA package- which actually wouldn't be that bad, because it'd be a good anti-WS platform that way- but it might be a separate option.
Truth be told, I think it would be perfectly reasonable for it to be a separate option.
There is a whole lot we dont know about the Onager. The AA Array has a ton of weapons, but do the others have any other secondary weapons? Does it have any CC weapons(one looks like it has a taser)? How much does the Neutron Laser cost? Lots of questions. All we know is it's stat line
I just bought my first 2 squads of skiratii today, I'm thinking building em as rangers. then I'll have eneugh special weapons that my first squad of vanguard can easily have 3 arc rifles.
Exergy wrote: Vanguard just to soo much more damage to things not in 4+ armor, and a lot of the game has armor other than 4+
I think you want enough Vanguard to scout up the field and press the enemy, but a few rangers to sit a little further back and try and snipe out a special weapons or two.
If I were taking 50, I would have 30 Vanguard easily, maybe 40.
And for Vanguard, there is not much reason to take anything but arc rifles. Plasma is nice, but too pricey and the Carbines should help you with anti infantry enough. TDA isnt that prevalent.
TDA might not be prevalent, but 2+ armor MCsare, and Arc Rifles won't help against those. As an example, a full squad of Vanguard with Plasma Calivers will:
21 shots, 14 hits, ~2.34 auto-wound rolls for ~4.68 wounds from the special trait on the Radium Carbines
9 shots, 6 hits, 4 wounds from Plasma Calivers
The Carbines will put on average ~0.78 unsaved wounds on a T6/2+ MC, while the Plasma Calivers will contribute an extra 4 wounds; versus the common 5++ that the two "big players" of the T6/2+ statline have, this is then ~2.67 unsaved wounds. So on average, factoring saves, Vanguard with Plasma Calivers will put around 3.5 unsaved wounds onto a Riptide or a Dreadknight. Obviously this changes if a Riptide Nova Charges or the Dreadknight pops Sanctuary, but Plasma Calivers do have their uses.
OTOH, with 9 shots and Gets Hot! you'll average 1.5 Gets Hot! results, which will on average inflict ~0.62 unsaved wounds on your dudes. Of course, considering that you could ally in a cheap-as-chips Divination Psyker, I'm hard-pressed to find that to be overly problematic.
In fact, casting Prescience on the aforementioned squad will take the "killrate" up to:
21 shots, 14 hits native, ~4.7 extra hits from Prescience, ~3.12 total "6s", ~6.24 wounds from the Radium Carbine trait
9 shots, 6 hits, 2 extra hits from Prescience, ~5.34 wounds from Plasma Calivers
Radium Carbines then inflict ~1.04 unsaved wounds, plus the ~3.56 unsaved wounds from Plasma Calivers with Prescience, means you're inflicting somewhere between 4 and 5 unsaved wounds on a Riptide/Dreadknight. If a Riptide took FNP, then this does drop a bit- ~0.69 unsaved from the Carbines and ~2.37 unsaved from the Plasma, for a total of ~3.06 unsaved wounds off of a Riptide with T6/2+/5++/5+++.
Which, considering just how ridiculously tough Riptides generally are, that's pretty slick.
Exergy wrote: There is a whole lot we dont know about the Onager. The AA Array has a ton of weapons, but do the others have any other secondary weapons? Does it have any CC weapons(one looks like it has a taser)? How much does the Neutron Laser cost? Lots of questions. All we know is it's stat line
Yeah... unfortunately that's true. That said, I highly doubt that Onagers will have combat weapons- they've got average WS but more relevantly absolutely abysmal Attacks and poor Initiative. Additionally, for a CC walker it's not got very good base Strength- yes, most of the CC walkers also get powerfists or some other x2 StrCCW but they also all tend to be S6+ base.
Whiskey what is the calculation like for BS7 on that plasma squad? Because technically we don't really even need divination to avoid gets hot, the twin link is nice but you re-roll those 1s and can hit with those re-rolls on 5s. That's pretty sweet even for just one turn, and Doctrina Imperatives can't just be denied by the enemy and doesn't require a roll of 4+ on two dice.
I really, really want to like the infiltrators and rust stalkers. But I just can't really see them as worthy units... that T3 really bugs me, the thing is they are going to take a lot of wounds because of it. More than you're going to be able to save with 4+ armor and 5+ FNP. They may be two wounds each but 4+ and FNP just seems like such easy rolls to fail...
ultimentra wrote: I really, really want to like the infiltrators and rust stalkers. But I just can't really see them as worthy units... that T3 really bugs me, the thing is they are going to take a lot of wounds because of it. More than you're going to be able to save with 4+ armor and 5+ FNP. They may be two wounds each but 4+ and FNP just seems like such easy rolls to fail...
my gut feeling is that it won't be quite as bad as it seems because of the Skitarri's ability to spam light armor. yeah these guys will die in droves to autocanons. but there are a LOT of targets for autocanons in an admech list
ultimentra wrote: Whiskey what is the calculation like for BS7 on that plasma squad? Because technically we don't really even need divination to avoid gets hot, the twin link is nice but you re-roll those 1s and can hit with those re-rolls on 5s. That's pretty sweet even for just one turn, and Doctrina Imperatives can't just be denied by the enemy and doesn't require a roll of 4+ on two dice.
Bs7 is an 8/9 chance to hit. Same as tl bs4. Chance of getting a failed gets hit roll is 1/36.
ultimentra wrote: Whiskey what is the calculation like for BS7 on that plasma squad? Because technically we don't really even need divination to avoid gets hot, the twin link is nice but you re-roll those 1s and can hit with those re-rolls on 5s. That's pretty sweet even for just one turn, and Doctrina Imperatives can't just be denied by the enemy and doesn't require a roll of 4+ on two dice.
Derp, totally forgot about Doctrina Imperatives.
BS7 for 3x Plasma Calivers in a full Vanguard squad:
Spoiler:
Radium Carbines:
21 shots, 14 initial hits; ~2.33 extra hits from BS7 (BS7 is re-roll then hit on 5+, right?), ~2.73 auto-wounds from Rad-Poisoning
Plasma Calivers
9 shots, 6 initial hits, 1 extra hit from ~4.67 wounds
All told, that's ~7.4 wounds before saves, and most of them are AP2; against:
Heavy Support- Onager Dunecrawler (135)
-Icarus Array
Onager Dunecrawler (120)
-Neutron Laser
Total- 1,170
I'd heartily recommend taking the Prehensile Dataspike on the Ruststalker and Infiltrator Princeps- getting an Initiative 10 attack is pretty nice, especially if you decide to accept a challenge. Even nicer, it's also a Haywire attack, so they can get a little more anti-vehicle capability.
OTOH, I would also say that the Warlord's unit, being armed with a bunch of Transuranic Arquebuses, isn't likely to get any benefit out of that Arc Pistol, so he'd probably be better off just keeping his Galvanic Rifle- unlike the quartermasters for an IG force, the Skitarii can give all their officers/NCOs proper rifles.
Leth wrote: Your also missing the extra 15 points per weapon for the plasma guns over the haywire.
I am not saying all one or all the other. I think a solid mix would be good(across the army, not in any given unit).
After looking at the upgrades I am becoming a fan of the 10 man unit with -1 cover save. Seriously, precision shots is gonna come up.
Seriously so many wounds and it helps against a lot of the major offenders.
Also for the elite guys a iron priest with 4 cyber wolves makes them majority T5 for awhile.....just sayin.
In terms of Allies, there is the obvious Space Wolves Rent-a-Pod shenanigans; however, I think that allying in Skitarii will probably be a great option for GK players- it provides anti-vehicle with Arc Rifles (primarily*), and a counter to 2+ save anything with Plasma Calivers. Skitarii can also bring some good AA/anti-skimmer fire with Icarus Onagers, and some ranged anti-armor fire with Neutron Lasers- also on Onagers.
In terms of bringing allies for the Sktitarii... probably anything that's fast. So maybe some Biker Marines, or even Mech Marines- with Onagers you could get some passable armor saturation going. Inquisition, can, IIRC, bring FA Valkyries (I think it was a FW update that allowed that though...), while Tempestus on their own can bring either FA (IE, free rides for Skitarii) Taurox Primes or Valkyries.
The Tempestus can also bring better up-field presence, thanks to being able to DS in, while Inquisition... I think bringing an Inquisitor or two might actually be one of the best ways to get some cheap unit buffers in. Consider:
A Xenos Inquisitor can bring Rad and Psychotroke grenades, IE two out of three of the most awesome grenades in the game (the third, IMO, is Mindscramblers). This could allow Sicarians of either flavor to "up-engage" significantly, or even do bad things if you combo'd it with the rad effects of Vanguard and the Neurostatic Aura of the Infiltrators.
A Hereticus Inquisitor can bring a Psyocculum, which makes you BS10 (!), but only if shooting at whatever flavor of psyker you prefer. Upside is that there only has to be one psyker in the unit, it also works on vehicles with the "Psychic Pilot rule, and BS10 means that you you're basically twin-linked BS5. Which is actually really amazing for killing, say, a Dreadknight (which is considered a Psyker). Hereticus Inquisitors can also bring Null Rods, to make a unit of Skitarii infantry of your choice immune to all psychic powers... though this does unfortunately extend to any powers that you might want to put on them- like Prescience, for example.
Xenos Inquisitors can also bring Conversion Beamers, which are funky guns that can get an S10/AP1 shot from 42-72", which is pretty nice if you want him to sit in the backfield with, say, a unit of Rangers with Transuranic Arquebuses. Unfortunately Xenos Inquisitors can't get Relentless...
OTOH, you could also bring a Malleus Inquisitor to get a Relentless Psycannon, which combines well with the S7 of Plasma Calivers, and probably works pretty good with Arc Rifles if you're after light/medium armor. Malleus Inquisitors can also bring Incinerators for some template action- templates being rather absent from the Skitarii list.
You can also bring Servo-Skulls to get more accurate DS for yourself, more accurate scatter (if the shot is within 12" of the Servo Skull) and mess with enemy Infiltrators and Scout moves- very useful.
As an example, for a backfield objective holder squad of Rangers with Transuranic Arquebuses, you could take a Xenos Inquisitor with a Conversion Beamer, Power Armor, Servo Skulls, and ML1 is 107 points. ML1 is for Divination- or more specifically, Prescience. However, you could also skip ML1, at which point he's only a 77 point investment for what is really just a guy with a bigass gun. You could pay 15-35 points to take either the Tome of Vethric, Liber Heresius, or both so you can get Split Fire; Tome of Vethric only gives Split Fire against the Eldar, while the Liber Heresius can give you one of several USRs but you can't take the same one twice in a row... so for a Conversion Beamer Xenos Inquisitor, probably not a good idea.
OTOH, a Malleus Inquisitor that picks up TDA, a Psycannon, Empyrean Brain Mines and 3x Servo Skulls costs 99 points- here the Liber Heresius would probably be good pick, since you can also get Counter-Attack in addition to Split Fire. Also, for this one? Spend the 5 points to give him the "Grimoire of True Names", as this will, in a challenge only, put a -5 penalty on the WS/I/Ld characteristics of anything with the Daemon USR. Given that a Malleus Inquisitor with TDA also comes with a Daemonhammer, this is quite awesome- Psyker ML1 is optional, but also awesome since then you can gib stuff pretty easily... though be careful of sticking him with Vanguards, as he'll take that -1T penalty too.
A Hereticus Inquisitor with the Psyocculum, Combi-Weapon, PA, and 3x Servo Skulls is all of 77 points, and gives you BS10 when firing on anything that's even slightly Psyker-y, along with a handy-dandy combi weapon of your choice. You can also take a Null Rod for psychic immunity or take ML1 for Divination access.
However, if what you want is transports, then I'd say that Tempestus might be the best choice- they can bring either Taurox Primes or Valkyries in FA, as well as give you some early up-field presence with DS. The Tempestus Formations- or more accurately, the Taurox Prime oriented formation- might also be a good choice to bring in.
I think for bringing allies to the Skitarii... there's some limits, because the one thing that Skitarii kind of need is some sort of transport option- or at least something for them to grab objectives in Maelstrom missions. Something like Inquisition with some Acolytes in a Valkyrie (Henchmen Warbands are cheap, after all) or maybe some Scions in TXPs would be a good way to fill the gap of "fast transit".
*Also note that Neutron Laser Onagers can bring long-range AV for a number of Imperial armies, in particular Sisters and GKs. Incidentally, this makes Skitarii a somewhat better ally force than IG for that purpose, as Skitarii infantry are better equipped and probably a lower "tax", on top of the benefits of the Skitarii Maniple detachment. Oh, and Infiltrators, which both Sisters and GKs lack.
Neurostatic aura: All enemy models within 6" of one or more models with this special rule subtract 1 from their WS, BS, I and Ld.
--This means that A) it does not stack and B) it affects models. If you get into assault and not all of the models are within 6 inches (rare, I know) it means that they may still be able to use higher leadership of models farther than 6" away when rolling for leadership checks after assault. It also means that if other units are close, you're going to want to keep track of who gets hit by the -1 BS when your opponent's shooting phase comes around. Logically, your opponent would move unenganged units away from the Infiltrators, which could open up some opportunities for map-control when your opponent wants to get their full BS back.
Another thing to note is that Ruststalkers do NOT have grenades with the dual Transonic blades. Only by getting the Chordclaw and razors do they get grenades. This is nice, since it gives them a haywire weapon in close combat, and a grenade to chuck in the shooting phase, but they lose the +1 strength. Not having grenades means any initiative bonus is totally lost on that first turn of combat if they charge something in terrain. Infiltrators cannot get grenades at all. :I
Inquisition land raiders with assault grenade launchers! Ya, I saw that grenade thing too but was not a big deal since I have been dealing with this problem for years as inquisiton. I am defiantly going for some sort of inquisition skitarii build.
Ultimately I want to drown my opponents in MSU and block lanes with the corpses of my wrecked vehicles. The mass of spider tanks rolling on reminds me of my kan wall list alot actually now that I think about it. The big difference is that instead of boys in trucks I'll have more AV12 than most people know what to do with and quite alot more shooty to boot.
Biggest threats I face locally is the penta flyrants/adamantium lance/wraith decurion reclamation/ and the usual WS/ riptide/ bikestar /centstar/ screamerstars Weirdly enough I haven't seen a dreadknight in a while. All the GK seem to have stopped playing locally cept for me.
I'm curious if you guys have anything particular in mind for the above generic threats above with mechanicus?
Neurostatic aura: All enemy models within 6" of one or more models with this special rule subtract 1 from their WS, BS, I and Ld.
--This means that A) it does not stack and B) it affects models. If you get into assault and not all of the models are within 6 inches (rare, I know) it means that they may still be able to use higher leadership of models farther than 6" away when rolling for leadership checks after assault. It also means that if other units are close, you're going to want to keep track of who gets hit by the -1 BS when your opponent's shooting phase comes around. Logically, your opponent would move unenganged units away from the Infiltrators, which could open up some opportunities for map-control when your opponent wants to get their full BS back.
There is a Sicarian formation which upgrades the Neurostatic Aura to 12" apparently, sooo...
Another thing to note is that Ruststalkers do NOT have grenades with the dual Transonic blades. Only by getting the Chordclaw and razors do they get grenades. This is nice, since it gives them a haywire weapon in close combat, and a grenade to chuck in the shooting phase, but they lose the +1 strength. Not having grenades means any initiative bonus is totally lost on that first turn of combat if they charge something in terrain. Infiltrators cannot get grenades at all. :I
The Transonic Blades are the free upgrade.
So they come base with the Mindscrambler Grenade, Chordclaw, and Transonic Razor.
In regards to the overall performance of the Infiltrators/Ruststalkers it does seem to have a bit to do with what you upgrade the unit leader with. Conversion Fields really come into their own in combat for Infiltrators.
Neurostatic aura: All enemy models within 6" of one or more models with this special rule subtract 1 from their WS, BS, I and Ld.
--This means that A) it does not stack and B) it affects models. If you get into assault and not all of the models are within 6 inches (rare, I know) it means that they may still be able to use higher leadership of models farther than 6" away when rolling for leadership checks after assault. It also means that if other units are close, you're going to want to keep track of who gets hit by the -1 BS when your opponent's shooting phase comes around. Logically, your opponent would move unenganged units away from the Infiltrators, which could open up some opportunities for map-control when your opponent wants to get their full BS back.
There is a Sicarian formation which upgrades the Neurostatic Aura to 12" apparently, sooo...
Another thing to note is that Ruststalkers do NOT have grenades with the dual Transonic blades. Only by getting the Chordclaw and razors do they get grenades. This is nice, since it gives them a haywire weapon in close combat, and a grenade to chuck in the shooting phase, but they lose the +1 strength. Not having grenades means any initiative bonus is totally lost on that first turn of combat if they charge something in terrain. Infiltrators cannot get grenades at all. :I
The Transonic Blades are the free upgrade.
So they come base with the Mindscrambler Grenade, Chordclaw, and Transonic Razor.
In regards to the overall performance of the Infiltrators/Ruststalkers it does seem to have a bit to do with what you upgrade the unit leader with. Conversion Fields really come into their own in combat for Infiltrators.
Yes, but in order to get the Transonic Blades, you must replace the chordclaw, razor, AND mindscramble grenades. It's one set or the other for the entire squad, no mixing and matching.
I can appreciate the balance attempt of offering +1S or the grenades, but given the tradeoff I would almost never take double swords. A squad of haywire grenades is too valuable, as is initiative retention through terrain. And they ALREADY have furious charge. It'd be nice to wound MEQ on 2+, but not that nice - and locking them down with a group of Vanguards achieves this anyway.
On the note of the elites however - what are people's thoughts for the Infiltrators between Flechette/Taser and Stubcarbine/Sword? I can't come to a definitive conclusion myself but want to lean towards the Carbine/Sword. Not being able to wound above T4 concerns me.
Neurostatic aura: All enemy models within 6" of one or more models with this special rule subtract 1 from their WS, BS, I and Ld.
--This means that A) it does not stack and B) it affects models. If you get into assault and not all of the models are within 6 inches (rare, I know) it means that they may still be able to use higher leadership of models farther than 6" away when rolling for leadership checks after assault. It also means that if other units are close, you're going to want to keep track of who gets hit by the -1 BS when your opponent's shooting phase comes around. Logically, your opponent would move unenganged units away from the Infiltrators, which could open up some opportunities for map-control when your opponent wants to get their full BS back.
Ah well, I suppose it was too much to hope that it stacked. Still, that's pretty slick for knocking things down a bit for something like Ruststalkers or allied assault units.
drbored wrote: Another thing to note is that Ruststalkers do NOT have grenades with the dual Transonic blades. Only by getting the Chordclaw and razors do they get grenades. This is nice, since it gives them a haywire weapon in close combat, and a grenade to chuck in the shooting phase, but they lose the +1 strength. Not having grenades means any initiative bonus is totally lost on that first turn of combat if they charge something in terrain. Infiltrators cannot get grenades at all. :I
Yeah... I'm seeing them either with Blades+an Inquisitor buddy with Rad/Psychotroke and the default Frag grenades so that they can still assault at Initiative through cover, or keeping the Razors and Chordclaws. This does bring up an interesting issue, however- the Ruststalker Princeps can end up with two Chordclaws... so does that mean he gets two Fleshbane attacks?
With Infiltrators not having grenades, I see them using their AoE rule to debuff an enemy squad, shoot said squad up a bit, and then wait for some Ruststalkers to bring the pain, at which point the Infiltrators might join the party. OTOH, they could also take advantage of an allied character with assault grenades.
Unless, of course, a character with assault grenades doesn't confer that benefit to their entire unit, which would suck immensely.
sudojoe wrote: Inquisition land raiders with assault grenade launchers! Ya, I saw that grenade thing too but was not a big deal since I have been dealing with this problem for years as inquisiton. I am defiantly going for some sort of inquisition skitarii build.
Ultimately I want to drown my opponents in MSU and block lanes with the corpses of my wrecked vehicles. The mass of spider tanks rolling on reminds me of my kan wall list alot actually now that I think about it. The big difference is that instead of boys in trucks I'll have more AV12 than most people know what to do with and quite alot more shooty to boot.
Biggest threats I face locally is the penta flyrants/adamantium lance/wraith decurion reclamation/ and the usual WS/ riptide/ bikestar /centstar/ screamerstars Weirdly enough I haven't seen a dreadknight in a while. All the GK seem to have stopped playing locally cept for me.
I'm curious if you guys have anything particular in mind for the above generic threats above with mechanicus?
Sudojoe makes an excellent point- Inquisition can bring very "low-tax" assault ransports. You'll be needing a LR Crusader, however, as both Infiltrators and Ruststalkers have the Bulky rule.
Also, insofar as T6/2+ armor MCs, Vanguard with Plasma Calivers will be a good solution to solving that problem. Serpent Spam, I'm thinking Icarus Onagers, Arc Rifle Vanguards, and Sydonian Dragoons on the charge- a single Dragoon with a Taser Lance can pump out a whopping 4 S8 attacks and at Initiative 6!
Plus Dragoons are quite mobile- you'll have a guaranteed 9" move+5" charge, for a minimum threat range of 14"- if you roll a pretty average charge length of 5-6", then that goes up to 17-18" threat range- that's really good.
Ruststalkers with their Haywire grenades are also a good option, because there seems to be a fancy formation that allows them to Run+Charge, which would give them a minimum 9+4+5=18" threat range, and if you roll at least 3 for the run move and 6 for the charge, that gets you a whopping 24" threat range.
Poly Ranger wrote: Actually bs7 on 7 rad carbines gives 6.22 wounds against a t6 mc:
21 x 8/9 x 1/6 x 2 = 6.22
Automatically Appended Next Post: The plasma will cause 9x8/9x2/3 = 5.3333 wounds against T6
...Hmm. Oh wait, I derped- I think I forgot that BS7 gives a 2+ To-Hit for the initial roll.
Spoiler:
Vanguard, 10 men, 3 Plasma Calivers
21 Radium Carbine shots, ~17.5 hits, ~1.17 bonus from BS7, ~3.12 rolled for wounding, so ~6.24 auto-wounds from Rad-Poisoning (I think I forgot that it was also 2 wounds per To-Wound of 6)
9 Plasma Caliver shots, ~7.5 hits, ~0.5 bonus from BS7, ~5.34 wounds from Plasma Calivers
Which then turns into:
Spoiler:
T6/3+: ~2.08 unsaved from Radium Carbines, ~5.34 unsaved from Plasma Calivers; ~7.42 unsaved wounds total... you'll kill almost half of a Carnifex brood /whistles
T6/2+/5++: ~1.04 from Carbines, ~3.56 from Calivers, ~4.6 unsaved wounds- that's a gibbed Dreadknight, pretty much- not quite a Riptide, particularly when factoring in:
T6/2+/5++/5+++: ~0.69 from Carbines, ~2.37 from Calivers; ~3.06 unsaved wounds on a Riptide with FNP- so it's mostly dead, which is nice
T6/2+/3++/5+++: ~0.69 from Carbines, ~1.19 from Calivers; ~1.88 unsaved wounds if a 'Tide has both FNP and Nova Charges his shield
A full squad of Vanguard with triple Calivers will definitely be murderlicious against almost anything except a Riptide- and that really only comes from the fact that Riptides can buy FNP and even Nova Charge up to a 3++.
Dramagod2 wrote: Does anyone know the exact wording for the Onager shield yet?
Unfortunately no- but so far every source that I've seen seems to say "they start with a 6++, additional walkers that remain in 4" coherency give +1 to the save", with no mentions of it being tied to the Icarus Array. It's also worth noting that in order to claim the 4++, they'll need to be arranged in a triangular formation so that all members are within 4" of each other.
obsidiankatana wrote: On the note of the elites however - what are people's thoughts for the Infiltrators between Flechette/Taser and Stubcarbine/Sword? I can't come to a definitive conclusion myself but want to lean towards the Carbine/Sword. Not being able to wound above T4 concerns me.
Taser Goads and Flechette Blasters all day; Flechette Blasters may not be able to really contribute against anything much above T4, but Taser Goads make them S6 in combat. Incidentally, a unit of Infiltrators in the Sicarian formation could potentially offer an almost immediate Turn 2 charge, since they can Infiltrate up the board, then make a Scout move, and then get a 9" move plus a D6+3" run, and then Turn 2 you could get a 9" move, D6+3" run, 2D6+3" charge.
Say you Infiltrate to 12" into the middle of the board- 12" outside of the enemy deployment. Scout move 9", move 9", say a 6" run, you've literally sitting on your opponents board edge. Season with the 9" move, say another 6" run and a typical 5" (plus the 3" of Dunestrider) and you're looking at a 23" charge into something that's tried to move up the field to get away from them.
...Damn Sicarian infantry are fast little buggers aren't they?
Neurostatic aura: All enemy models within 6" of one or more models with this special rule subtract 1 from their WS, BS, I and Ld.
--This means that A) it does not stack and B) it affects models. If you get into assault and not all of the models are within 6 inches (rare, I know) it means that they may still be able to use higher leadership of models farther than 6" away when rolling for leadership checks after assault. It also means that if other units are close, you're going to want to keep track of who gets hit by the -1 BS when your opponent's shooting phase comes around. Logically, your opponent would move unenganged units away from the Infiltrators, which could open up some opportunities for map-control when your opponent wants to get their full BS back.
There is a Sicarian formation which upgrades the Neurostatic Aura to 12" apparently, sooo...
Another thing to note is that Ruststalkers do NOT have grenades with the dual Transonic blades. Only by getting the Chordclaw and razors do they get grenades. This is nice, since it gives them a haywire weapon in close combat, and a grenade to chuck in the shooting phase, but they lose the +1 strength. Not having grenades means any initiative bonus is totally lost on that first turn of combat if they charge something in terrain. Infiltrators cannot get grenades at all. :I
The Transonic Blades are the free upgrade.
So they come base with the Mindscrambler Grenade, Chordclaw, and Transonic Razor.
In regards to the overall performance of the Infiltrators/Ruststalkers it does seem to have a bit to do with what you upgrade the unit leader with. Conversion Fields really come into their own in combat for Infiltrators.
Yes, but in order to get the Transonic Blades, you must replace the chordclaw, razor, AND mindscramble grenades. It's one set or the other for the entire squad, no mixing and matching.
Right, and my point was that you start off base with the Chordclaw, Razor, and Grenades.
obsidiankatana wrote: I can appreciate the balance attempt of offering +1S or the grenades, but given the tradeoff I would almost never take double swords. A squad of haywire grenades is too valuable, as is initiative retention through terrain. And they ALREADY have furious charge. It'd be nice to wound MEQ on 2+, but not that nice - and locking them down with a group of Vanguards achieves this anyway.
On the note of the elites however - what are people's thoughts for the Infiltrators between Flechette/Taser and Stubcarbine/Sword? I can't come to a definitive conclusion myself but want to lean towards the Carbine/Sword. Not being able to wound above T4 concerns me.
The Flechette Taser does more damage to almost everything, but you dont have the 18" range.
Str2 can wound T5, it is unable to wound T6(nurgle bikers and tough MCs)
So the Mechanicus have lots of AT through haywire, this is great and all but what now what do we have for armies without any tanks? If a mechanicus player knows he is about to fight Tyranids, what does he/she bring?
Also to a lot of the people complaining about the lack of weapons in the kit, the Plasma Caliver and the haywire gun look almost the same. They will look exactly the same from 10ft away. Really if you want to get nit-picky you can cut a plasma caliver up and easily make it look like a haywire rifle.
ultimentra wrote: So the Mechanicus have lots of AT through haywire, this is great and all but what now what do we have for armies without any tanks? If a mechanicus player knows he is about to fight Tyranids, what does he/she bring?
Also to a lot of the people complaining about the lack of weapons in the kit, the Plasma Caliver and the haywire gun look almost the same. They will look exactly the same from 10ft away. Really if you want to get nit-picky you can cut a plasma caliver up and easily make it look like a haywire rifle.
Vanguard do a pretty good job at taking down MC's through weight of wounds. Triple Caliver and they'll drop even faster. Using one of the +WS Imperatives and getting them stuck in, you'll be fighting T2/3 enemies that might hit you on 5's. Rangers put down Warriors for days with AP4 stock while being able to single out any concerning special weapons.
A single Ballistarii / Dragoon holds up an infinite number of gaunts/gants/warriors. Icarus Array Dunecrawlers and/or Cognis AC Ballistarii put down most Nid FMCs. Dragoon squadrons might be able to brute force wounds through on the charge.
Ruststalkers in combination with Infiltrators are also a good way to take down MCs - if expensive. Reducing enemy initiative means your Ruststalkers likely swing first and sneak some AP2 goodness through - also, suddenly, their fleshbane attacks matter. Nids being by-and-large WS3/4, the Infiltrator reduction brings it to WS2/3 and you're hitting on 2's all around. Taser Goads on the Infiltrators brute force wounds through for the finisher.
ultimentra wrote: Also to a lot of the people complaining about the lack of weapons in the kit, the Plasma Caliver and the haywire gun look almost the same. They will look exactly the same from 10ft away. Really if you want to get nit-picky you can cut a plasma caliver up and easily make it look like a haywire rifle.
I look forward to your step by step guide for this. With pics. Thanks!
Oh and lets make the standard from 3 feet away, I don't play games on 10 foot tables. I am leaning over 6 foot tables at most.
I'm waiting for the super-fluffy Skitarii-Imperial Knights list we all know is coming. A couple of Ranger squads as objective holders, Dragoons and Ironstriders for armor saturation, Sicarians for general mayhem-causing, and the Knight(s) as the centerpiece.
EDIT: Okay, it can only be done well at around 2500 pts, but I figured out an at least semi-decent list.
Exergy wrote: The Flechette Taser does more damage to almost everything, but you dont have the 18" range.
Str2 can wound T5, it is unable to wound T6(nurgle bikers and tough MCs)
I don't think that having the range limitation of the Flechette Blaster is going to be a big deal for Infiltrators though- not only can they infiltrate up the board (pun partially unintended), but they get a 9" Movement/Scout moves, so distance isn't likely to be a problem for getting them into range.
To put this into perspective: Flechette Blasters have, IIRC, a 12" range, as befitting the majority of pistols in the game. Infiltrators have a 9" move, which means they have a 21" threat range for their pistols- if you want to guarantee that you'll not suddenly be out of range due to casualties, call it about 18-19" threat range.
To compare, Vanguards have a 24" threat range (6" move+18" Radium Carbines), likely around 20-21" to guarantee you'll be in range and won't lose any shots due to suddenly being out of range. In other words, they've got the same shooting threat ranges.
Whiskey144 wrote: Unless, of course, a character with assault grenades doesn't confer that benefit to their entire unit, which would suck immensely.
Which is the way it works. Assault grenades let the Model charging strike at normal init. Not the whole unit.
Damn, I'd been hoping that it was applied to the entire unit. Infiltrators do however have the mobility to probably maneuver around most kinds of cover so that they can attack at initiative, unless the enemy is in area terrain.
ultimentra wrote: So the Mechanicus have lots of AT through haywire, this is great and all but what now what do we have for armies without any tanks? If a mechanicus player knows he is about to fight Tyranids, what does he/she bring?
Also to a lot of the people complaining about the lack of weapons in the kit, the Plasma Caliver and the haywire gun look almost the same. They will look exactly the same from 10ft away. Really if you want to get nit-picky you can cut a plasma caliver up and easily make it look like a haywire rifle.
Pretty much, what this guy says:
obsidiankatana wrote: Vanguard do a pretty good job at taking down MC's through weight of wounds. Triple Caliver and they'll drop even faster. Using one of the +WS Imperatives and getting them stuck in, you'll be fighting T2/3 enemies that might hit you on 5's. Rangers put down Warriors for days with AP4 stock while being able to single out any concerning special weapons.
A single Ballistarii / Dragoon holds up an infinite number of gaunts/gants/warriors. Icarus Array Dunecrawlers and/or Cognis AC Ballistarii put down most Nid FMCs. Dragoon squadrons might be able to brute force wounds through on the charge.
Ruststalkers in combination with Infiltrators are also a good way to take down MCs - if expensive. Reducing enemy initiative means your Ruststalkers likely swing first and sneak some AP2 goodness through - also, suddenly, their fleshbane attacks matter. Nids being by-and-large WS3/4, the Infiltrator reduction brings it to WS2/3 and you're hitting on 2's all around. Taser Goads on the Infiltrators brute force wounds through for the finisher.
Triple Caliver Vanguards can actually kill 1-2 Carnifexes per turn due to Rad Poisoning on the carbines and the S7/AP2 mass fire from the Plasma Calivers. In order to guarantee that though, you'll likely want to bring some Inquisition to get a Divination bot and some WC batteries by taking a few Mystics.
Also, other thoughts on Dragoons:
Dragoons have the Dunestrider rule, so they add 3" to every move that they make. The Skitarii Maniple detachment gives everybody a pre-game Scout move.
Which means that Turn 1 a Dragoon squadron could Scout Move 9", regular move 9", and then run D6+3" and end up a minimum of 22" from wherever they started. Next turn they move 9" and charge 2D6+3", for a minimum 14" charge range, more likely to be around 17".
You could be looking at a Turn 2 charge against things in the enemy deployment zone. Ruststalkers can pull off the same thing, so you could potentially use a squad of Ruststalkers with their Mindscrambler Grenades, and a unit of 2 Dragoons to charge two Wave Serpents and kill them.
On Turn 2.
For what initially seems like a shooty gunline army, they've got some fantastic fast combat units. For the record, 2 Dragoons will dump eight S8 attacks on the charge, while 5 Ruststalkers can attack with a Haywire strike apiece against vehicles.
drbored wrote: Another thing to note is that Ruststalkers do NOT have grenades with the dual Transonic blades. Only by getting the Chordclaw and razors do they get grenades. This is nice, since it gives them a haywire weapon in close combat, and a grenade to chuck in the shooting phase, but they lose the +1 strength. Not having grenades means any initiative bonus is totally lost on that first turn of combat if they charge something in terrain. Infiltrators cannot get grenades at all. :I
Yeah... I'm seeing them either with Blades+an Inquisitor buddy with Rad/Psychotroke and the default Frag grenades so that they can still assault at Initiative through cover, or keeping the Razors and Chordclaws. This does bring up an interesting issue, however- the Ruststalker Princeps can end up with two Chordclaws... so does that mean he gets two Fleshbane attacks?
Until we get the exact wording on the chordclaws (maybe I missed it?) its hard to answer that.
Also - adding IC with frag does nothing to help the unit assault through terrain - grenades for assault are done on a per model basis
Which means that Turn 1 a Dragoon squadron could Scout Move 9", regular move 9", and then run D6+3" and end up a minimum of 22" from wherever they started. Next turn they move 9" and charge 2D6+3", for a minimum 14" charge range, more likely to be around 17".
Correction: Dunestrider adds 3'' when moving in the Movement Phase, Shooting Phase, or Assault Phase. Scout happens before any of these. It's also 12'', not 6''.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: How can a Ruststalker Princeps get 2 claws? He has to have replaced the first one with Transonic Blades to get access to the upgrade.
Man, I just keep getting derpy in this thread. That's a good catch though- since the Princeps can't get 2 Chordclaws, then the rules interaction caused by having two of them doesn't matter.
Which means that Turn 1 a Dragoon squadron could Scout Move 9", regular move 9", and then run D6+3" and end up a minimum of 22" from wherever they started. Next turn they move 9" and charge 2D6+3", for a minimum 14" charge range, more likely to be around 17".
Correction: Dunestrider adds 3'' when moving in the Movement Phase, Shooting Phase, or Assault Phase. Scout happens before any of these. It's also 12'', not 6''.
The derp is strong with me I suppose- I had to go and check the BRB to get re-read the Scout USR section.
So a Dragoon (or Ruststalkers, or Infiltrators) can Scout 6", Move 9", run D6+3", and ends up with a minimum of 19" from wherever they were. Still, I'd say that that is pretty stellar movement anyways.
Also, Phosphor Serpentas look like they'll be a good way for Dragoons to provide some army support, since they can give a -1 penalty to the cover save of any unit that takes unsaved wounds/glancing or penetrating hits from hits. They also have the advantage that they're more mobile than the Vanguard/Rangers, and get 18" of range instead of 12".
It unfortunately does seem however, that the Sicarian infantry have no access to the Ranged/Melee Wargear lists that the Vanguard/Ranger leaders get. So no fancy pistols for them- and Phosphor Blast Pistols would have been potentially very useful for Ruststalkers and Infiltrators both.
Well, the only reason I didn't consider that was because I was thinking about how Phosphor Serpentas synergize with the rest of the army, and not just the Dragoons that can carry them around.
Also, who else is thinking that the Radium Jezzails don't really offer enough to be as useful as the Taser Lances? A buttload of S8 attacks on the charge (and then a slightly small buttload of S7 attacks afterwards) seems a lot more useful on something as mobile as the Dragoons than a Sniper gun, when the Transuranic Arquebus is probably a better option for bringing Sniper weapons.
I question even paying the points for an Arquebus. Given that making full use of its range damn near guarantees cover saves, I'd rather just use the stock Galvanic Rifles (which have precision anyway).
I mean... I like the Jezzails simply as they cause 2 AP2 wounds on a To Wound of a 6... but yeah probably not as good of an upgrade as the trade Anti-V for nowhere-near-as-efficient Anti-MC.
And if I really needed tough, walking MCs dead, Las-Ballistari or Plas-Vanguard could do the job better.
Nah, I think I would rather keep them cheap and small(more MSU) than otherwise. To make it worth investing in unit buffs means that you want the unit to be bigger. At which point it kinda becomes unwieldy.
I think keep the ironstriders stock with autocannon. Not worth the extra 20 points each.
I would make the dunewalkers the main ranged strong shooting. they have the durability to make it happen.
The big meta changer will probably be the mass haywire in a pod wrecking knights. What exactly are the haywire guns and squads?
The assault units are fast and are hitting the meta at the same time as khorne daemonkin. Compared to masses of fearless khorne dogs the skitarii hit harder, but seem more fragile.
The big meta changer will probably be the mass haywire in a pod wrecking knights. What exactly are the haywire guns and squads?
Arc Rifles can be taken in either Rangers or Vanguard. 2 per 5 or 3 per 10.
Then you also have the Mindscrambler Grenades(which are Haywire) on the Sicarian Ruststalkers and the ability to take a Relic which is one use per game and makes you roll a number of D6 equivalent to the turn number. The resulting roll is the range of a special attack which hits all enemy vehicles within range with a Haywire attack.
The assault units are fast and are hitting the meta at the same time as khorne daemonkin. Compared to masses of fearless khorne dogs the skitarii hit harder, but seem more fragile.
Hounds reward synergy, they go well with more hounds, and can also work well with even more hounds. At least until they run up against knights, then they need someone else to knock the knights out of a tournament.
Guessing the arc rifles are rapid fire.
The relic us cool but it's more important to focus on 1 knight until it's dead.
schadenfreude wrote: Hounds reward synergy, they go well with more hounds, and can also work well with even more hounds. At least until they run up against knights, then they need someone else to knock the knights out of a tournament.
Guessing the arc rifles are rapid fire.
They are.
The relic us cool but it's more important to focus on 1 knight until it's dead.
Certainly, but that doesn't mean there aren't more vehicles in the list.
So is there any reason to take Calivers or Arc Rifles on Rangers as opposed to Vanguard? I'm building out my infantry right now and trying to decide how I want to build out my first 2 boxes. Right now i'm thinking-
5 Rangers, 2 TA (transarque), omnispex
10 Vanguard, 2 Arc Rifles (for an additional one in the future), omnispex
5 Vanguard, 2 PlasCal
ultimentra wrote: So is there any reason to take Calivers or Arc Rifles on Rangers as opposed to Vanguard? I'm building out my infantry right now and trying to decide how I want to build out my first 2 boxes
Calivers probably not as their range is only 18. But Arc Rifles sure. They are range 24 and the Rangers stock gun is 30. Which means if the Rangers are on an objective they can threaten stuff from 24 inches away with all their guns. Definitely pricer to use the Rangers, but they do have 6 inches more range on their stock guns plus precision shot which can help get rid of enemy special weapons.
Still whoever said they would field more Vanguard than Rangers is probably correct. The points savings add up and the radium carbine is very nice as a stock gun once the squad gets in range to use it
ultimentra wrote: So is there any reason to take Calivers or Arc Rifles on Rangers as opposed to Vanguard? I'm building out my infantry right now and trying to decide how I want to build out my first 2 boxes
Calivers probably not as their range is only 18. But Arc Rifles sure. They are range 24 and the Rangers stock gun is 30. Which means if the Rangers are on an objective they can threaten stuff from 24 inches away with all their guns. Definitely pricer to use the Rangers, but they do have 6 inches more range on their stock guns plus precision shot which can help get rid of enemy special weapons.
Still whoever said they would field more Vanguard than Rangers is probably correct. The points savings add up and the radium carbine is very nice as a stock gun once the squad gets in range to use it
Calivers are a very expensive investment. You need to get them near heavy infantry or MCs and unload or you are really wasting the squad. Putting them on already expensive rangers, makes a very tempting target that wants to hang back but at the same time close with the enemies nasties.
Arc Rifles on the other hand are half the price, have a little more range, and are nice to have around for Armor. I can see putting some ArcRifles on rangers, as you arent really investing too too much there. Also str6 AP4 isnt terrible at killing infantry at range.
I think im going to build 30 skitarii, 10 rangers with arquebuses(but maybe not use them) 10 vanguard with 3 Arc Rifles(the optimal choice) and 10 vanguard with 3 plasma Calivers. I think it's the best way to optimize what you get in the kits.
ultimentra wrote: So is there any reason to take Calivers or Arc Rifles on Rangers as opposed to Vanguard? I'm building out my infantry right now and trying to decide how I want to build out my first 2 boxes
Calivers probably not as their range is only 18. But Arc Rifles sure. They are range 24 and the Rangers stock gun is 30. Which means if the Rangers are on an objective they can threaten stuff from 24 inches away with all their guns. Definitely pricer to use the Rangers, but they do have 6 inches more range on their stock guns plus precision shot which can help get rid of enemy special weapons.
Still whoever said they would field more Vanguard than Rangers is probably correct. The points savings add up and the radium carbine is very nice as a stock gun once the squad gets in range to use it
Calivers are a very expensive investment. You need to get them near heavy infantry or MCs and unload or you are really wasting the squad. Putting them on already expensive rangers, makes a very tempting target that wants to hang back but at the same time close with the enemies nasties.
Arc Rifles on the other hand are half the price, have a little more range, and are nice to have around for Armor. I can see putting some ArcRifles on rangers, as you arent really investing too too much there. Also str6 AP4 isnt terrible at killing infantry at range.
I think im going to build 30 skitarii, 10 rangers with arquebuses(but maybe not use them) 10 vanguard with 3 Arc Rifles(the optimal choice) and 10 vanguard with 3 plasma Calivers. I think it's the best way to optimize what you get in the kits.
I will most likely do the same. My most recent sale should just cover it.
Currently I'm just theory crafting until the rest comes out. I have been running some tests, however.
I am planning on 5 man units of vanguard in pods with calivers since they will all be in general targetting MC's. I am then thinking rangers with arc rifles since they can infiltrate and scout, so guaranteed rapidfire range if I want them on the table turn one. Probably going to go 10 man with them and the -1 cover upgrade.
Leth wrote: I am planning on 5 man units of vanguard in pods with calivers since they will all be in general targetting MC's. I am then thinking rangers with arc rifles since they can infiltrate and scout, so guaranteed rapidfire range if I want them on the table turn one. Probably going to go 10 man with them and the -1 cover upgrade.
Where are you getting that Rangers can Infiltrate from?
As far as I'm aware only the Sicarian Infiltrators have the Infiltrate special rule. Scout is bestowed upon all Skitarii units taken as part of the Maniple formation.
dan2026 wrote: Rangers and Vanguard. 10 man squads or 5 man?
Arquebus worth it with Rangers?
Also they dont have Infiltrate they have Move Through Cover.
10 for maximizing Stock Loadout or 5 for maximizing Special Weapons. The correct choice is whichever fills a hole in your army design. If you're lacking AP4 at range and your heavy slots are full, you want 10man Rangers with Galvanic Rifles. If you're facing universally high T enemies, 10man Vanguard, etc.
I'm not sure what to think of the Arquebus. I want to like it. It looks real cool. But 25pts for one shot that wounds on a 4+ makes me nervous. 36points with cost of model.
ultimentra wrote: So is there any reason to take Calivers or Arc Rifles on Rangers as opposed to Vanguard? I'm building out my infantry right now and trying to decide how I want to build out my first 2 boxes
Calivers probably not as their range is only 18. But Arc Rifles sure. They are range 24 and the Rangers stock gun is 30. Which means if the Rangers are on an objective they can threaten stuff from 24 inches away with all their guns. Definitely pricer to use the Rangers, but they do have 6 inches more range on their stock guns plus precision shot which can help get rid of enemy special weapons.
Still whoever said they would field more Vanguard than Rangers is probably correct. The points savings add up and the radium carbine is very nice as a stock gun once the squad gets in range to use it
Calivers are a very expensive investment. You need to get them near heavy infantry or MCs and unload or you are really wasting the squad. Putting them on already expensive rangers, makes a very tempting target that wants to hang back but at the same time close with the enemies nasties.
Arc Rifles on the other hand are half the price, have a little more range, and are nice to have around for Armor. I can see putting some ArcRifles on rangers, as you arent really investing too too much there. Also str6 AP4 isnt terrible at killing infantry at range.
I think im going to build 30 skitarii, 10 rangers with arquebuses(but maybe not use them) 10 vanguard with 3 Arc Rifles(the optimal choice) and 10 vanguard with 3 plasma Calivers. I think it's the best way to optimize what you get in the kits.
dan2026 wrote: [size=12]Rangers and Vanguard. 10 man squads or 5 man?
Arquebus worth it with Rangers?
10 for maximizing Stock Loadout or 5 for maximizing Special Weapons. The correct choice is whichever fills a hole in your army design. If you're lacking AP4 at range and your heavy slots are full, you want 10man Rangers with Galvanic Rifles. If you're facing universally high T enemies, 10man Vanguard, etc.
I'm not sure what to think of the Arquebus. I want to like it. It looks real cool. But 25pts for one shot that wounds on a 4+ makes me nervous. 36points with cost of model.
Defenitely need one 10 man squad if making an army out of it, to have your warlord in. If you are buying the -1 cover save upgrade I think the 10 man also makes sense. If investing in the Cantilvers you might want more than 5 bodies as wound catchers(just 2 stock guys). 5 man Vanguard with 2 plasma end up costing 115 on their own and you probably want the -1 cover so that makes them 125.
The arquebuses look cool, but I doubt they are worth it. A 5 man ranger squad is 65pts. A 5 man with 2 Aquebuses is 115. A 10 man Ranger squad is only 120. 3 galvonic rifers and 2 Aquebuses or 10 galvonic rifles? In other words, 7 Str4 AP4 or 2 StrX AP3? The 7 str4 also come with 5 more wounds.
Super Newb wrote: Exergy, don't you mean 10 S4 AP4 versus 3 S4 AP4 and 2 StrX AP3?
He's making the comparison based on the difference between 5 man w/ 2 Arquebuses, and 10-man with no weapons.
In any case, here's my take on:
-Special Weapons in Vanguard and Ranger squads
Transuranic Arquebuses should never be used by Vanguard- the main advantage the Arquebus has is AP3+60" range, most of which is wasted on Vanguards (as in, the 60" range is the main benefit) who want to be at 18". Arquebuses do, however, suit 5-man Ranger squads that camp an objective all game long because they're much more likely to be able to shoot nearly anywhere on the board (LOS blocking obviously does hamper the Arquebus). Moreover, you're likely to get moderately reliable anti-transport/-light armor with the Arquebus, given that it's Armorbane and IIRC is what, S4 against vehicles? Or is it S3 now- I can't remember offhand.
Oh, and Transuranic Arquebuses can be used to troll the piss out of 90% of the other sniper units in the game, possibly all of them.
For Arc Rifles... I'm skeptical of their use in Ranger squads. Rangers want to be at one of two positions- around 30", at the edge of Galvanic Rifle range, to avoid return fire from comparable infantry, or at around 15" so that they can Rapid Fire. Arc Rifles have shorter overall and Rapid Fire ranges, that aren't particularly well synced with the Galvanic Rifles. Arc Rifles are also only AP5, as opposed to AP4 like the Galvanics are. Plasma Calivers in Ranger squads are actually not as bad, IMO- Rangers do get Move Through Cover, so they can maneuver close. Plasma Calivers are also, IMO, more suited to the shorter range at which Rangers would want to be at (15" Rapid Fire), and also synergize better with AP4 on the Galvanic Rifles. The main flaw I see with Caliver-Ranger squads is that Vanguard are much more capable at shorter ranges, due to having more weight of fire and the Rad Poisoning from the Radium Carbines.
I dunno, I feel like Rangers aren't as good with Arc Rifles as Vanguards are, and that really the only weapon option that synergizes well with the armaments of the Rangers is the Arquebus, which is also a very expensive sniper rifle. A pretty slick number, to be sure- but still an expensive one.
-Inquisitorial Support
Adding Inquisitors is a great way to get more mileage out of Skitarii- Hereticus Inquisitors can bring Psyocculums to make your mans BS10 against anything that's even remotely Psyker-y, and Null Rods to make a squad immune to psychic powers. Xenos and Malleus Inquisitors do bring a bit more- a Conversion Beamer Xenos can be a way to get a complementary weapon in your objective squatting Ranger+Arquebus squad, along with access to Divination, and some Servo Skulls. A Xenos Inquisitor can alternately be a grenade caddy, with Rad+Psychotrokes, and that's actually a cheaper build; he doesn't really benefit as much from being a Psyker (though Hammerhand can be quite handy on Ruststalkers, potentially making them S6 on the charge without Blades (and thus S6 at Initiative).
A Malleus Inquisitor should always be a Psyker, because they should really be equipped with TDA no matter what- being able to bring a Relentless Psycannon to tag along with, say, a squad of Vanguard, is a great way to get more firepower in. It's also the case that a Malleus Inquisitor with TDA comes with a Daemonhammer. Potentially, he could in fact instagib a MC, especially if you just take him with Hammerhand, and then pop both Hammerhand and Force- the latter of which also buffs whatever squad he's in.
Henchmen Warbands can also be thrown into Valkyries for use in Maelstrom missions (or any kind of transport really), and can bring more Plasma or some Melta along for the ride. Also, Warbands can be used to get assault vehicles into the list- though remember that the Sicarian Infiltrators and Ruststalkers are both Bulky, so you'll be throwing a unit of 8 at most into a Crusader, the roomiest of Land Raiders.
-MSU or no MSU
I actually feel like MSU might hurt the Skitarii list; one of the things that helps them is that their infantry are actually fairly cheap- Vanguard in particular. Moreover, given their lack of transport options, larger squads are pretty much the only way that they can really get good survivability against the more capable long-range guns, particularly artillery.
The exception to this, however, would be Rangers and Dragoons; Rangers can do passably well as an objective babysitter with all of two Arquebuses in a 5-man squad; it's a little pricey I know, but it can still contribute a little bit. Dragoons as MSU is actually a fair idea- they've got enough S8 attacks on the charge to pretty reliably kill almost any vehicle in the game in a single turn. The main issue with Dragoon MSU is that the Skitarii Maniple detachment only gets two FA slots, and as yet I'm not sure if there are any special Formations that have Dragoons in them.
Super Newb wrote: Exergy, don't you mean 10 S4 AP4 versus 3 S4 AP4 and 2 StrX AP3?
Or if you meant the additional guns it would be
5 S4 AP4 (and 5 more wounds) versus 2 SX AP3 shots. For almost the same price.
Im saying 10 rifles vs 3 rifles and 2 arquebuses. Subtract 3 rifles to get a straight up comparison.
Same for wounds, it's 11 wounds vs 6 wounds(number of models +1 for the champion)
Super Newb wrote: Exergy, don't you mean 10 S4 AP4 versus 3 S4 AP4 and 2 StrX AP3?
Or if you meant the additional guns it would be
5 S4 AP4 (and 5 more wounds) versus 2 SX AP3 shots. For almost the same price.
Im saying 10 rifles vs 3 rifles and 2 arquebuses. Subtract 3 rifles to get a straight up comparison. Same for wounds, it's 11 wounds vs 6 wounds(number of models +1 for the champion)
So 7 rifles(and 5 extra wounds) vs 2 Aquebuses.
Derp derp de derp derp. Lol. Next time I should read and think a little harder. Whoops.
I like the idea of 10 man stock Ranger squads. Especially because that means it frees up the arc rifle and the plasma caliver in the box for use in my other squads. Special weapons are in short supply yo. lol.
Napkin math tells me that at T4 3+ (MEQ), 10 stock rangers and 5 w/ 2 Arquebus evens out in marines killed. Edge goes to 10 stock with cover. T5+ starts to favor the Arquebus, T3- favors rifles. 3+ is the sweet spot for Arquebus, 2+/4+/5+/6+ all favor rifles. If it were AP2 or Str5, maybe I'd take it. As it is - I can't justify it.
obsidiankatana wrote: Napkin math tells me that at T4 3+ (MEQ), 10 stock rangers and 5 w/ 2 Arquebus evens out in marines killed. Edge goes to 10 stock with cover. T5+ starts to favor the Arquebus, T3- favors rifles. 3+ is the sweet spot for Arquebus, 2+/4+/5+/6+ all favor rifles. If it were AP2 or Str5, maybe I'd take it. As it is - I can't justify it.
It's worse than you think. Even against T4 3+ out of cover, 10 rifles do 1.111 wounds. 3 rifles and 2 aquebuses do 1.00 wound.
As you say against anything but 3+ saves, the rifles get MUCH better.
Against T5 the aquebuses get better and it keeps getting better the higher the toughness.
The aquebuses can threaten vehicles.
The aquebuses have an extra 30" of range
The aquebuses are better against T5+
The rifles are do double damage inside 15" and for overwatch
The rifles are much better against T3 and slightly better against T4
The rifles are better when cover becomes a factor
The rifles have 5 additional bodies(5 attacks and 5 wounds).
The aquebuses have the rule of cool.
The aquebuses mean less models to carry.
ronin_cse wrote: So which is the better option for running a squad of 3 arc rifles, Rangers or Vanguard? This is my main conundrum right now.
Vanguard every time.
Cheaper, more damage potential, and better in CC should it happen.
But rangers can deal more damage further away...plus they look cooler
I was thinking rangers can at least get shots off at other targets on their way to their main target, vanguard are so short range they may not get the chance...not saying you're wrong just playing devil's advocate
ronin_cse wrote: So which is the better option for running a squad of 3 arc rifles, Rangers or Vanguard? This is my main conundrum right now.
Vanguard every time.
Cheaper, more damage potential, and better in CC should it happen.
But rangers can deal more damage further away...plus they look cooler
I was thinking rangers can at least get shots off at other targets on their way to their main target, vanguard are so short range they may not get the chance...not saying you're wrong just playing devil's advocate
So they can take some pot shots. 10 rangers arent gonna do much damage at long range. Surviving till the end of the game is no feat unless you are scoring on an objective. What you want to do is do damage.
at 18", which isnt a terribly close range
Vanguard do 3 times as much damage as Rangers and cost 20 points less
at 15" which is where rangers enter rapid fire, and more fair comparison
Vanguard do 50% more damage and still cost 20 points less
I would rather have -1T in combat than move through cover.
Vanguard also do an additional double damage against T6 and T7.
Vangaurd are also able to wound T8, where rangers cannot.
Now that is stock. If you are giving them arc rifles, you are gonna be splitting duty AI and AT. But Arc rifles are only effective inside 24" and most effective inside 12"
what do you dakkalites think would be a very bad matchup for the Skitarii?
Right now im thinking old GK, all those psybacks and psycannons would just wreck them. Anything Skitarii have that deals with heavy infantry has an 18" range, so anything that can spit out Str6 AP4 at 24" or better would really neuter them.
Eldar and Tau can pretty easily dakka them out, although the dragoons do present an challenge for serpents and Rangers will do a number on Firewarriors, I dont think skitarii have anything that can chase wave serpentS or anythign that can deal with missilesides.(which will just delete anything Skitarii have)
Necrons will also probably wreck them. At least tesla got nerfed.
what do you dakkalites think would be a very bad matchup for the Skitarii?
I'm not even sure what a good Skitarii list would be so it is hard to say! Lots and lots of their cheap troops? Their troops (and elites) are T3. High volume of fire shots will run their day. And S6 will obviously get rid of those 2W elites quite quickly.
Tau and Eldar are a problem for us, as they are for most codices.
The biggest thing to consider with Skitarii is allies. You can go pure and lose out on mobility to get your low toughness units where they need to be. You can take BA/SW for drop pods to carry vanguard. You can take Inquisition to get some LRCs to carry your scary CC units. You can take a knight (or two) or 3) to give a bigger threat for your opponent to face.
I see Skitarii coming into their own at about the 2K+ margin, where you have enough points to take kitted up units and ally in ways to get them where you need them.
Idea- Skitarii Vanguard in BA Rent-a-Rhino with the added benefit of being fast. Yes/No? I realize Drop Pods are awesome, but running a Mech list with a bunch of Skitarii vanguard in Rhinos could be awesome as well. They do get to take 2 specials per 5 men, and the Rhino has 2 fire ports after all.
I was referencing the skitarii in rhinos. Razorbacks have not been worth it for awhile anyway, for the points you could get something more durable with more firepower in a different slot. Even with OS I would rather just get a rhino that runs around trying to stay alive
One thing I don't see people talking about enough with the Rangers is precision shot. Have we already forgot how powerful it combined with focus fire was in 6th? Now we have a unit with rapid fire guns that has it always. Make em bs 6 and now on the re roll of it hits, it's precision shots
Leth wrote: One thing I don't see people talking about enough with the Rangers is precision shot. Have we already forgot how powerful it combined with focus fire was in 6th? Now we have a unit with rapid fire guns that has it always. Make em bs 6 and now on the re roll of it hits, it's precision shots
Precision shots are powerful but situational. Particularly with Tau, Eldar, and Necrons being top teir they dont have many special weapons.
Still 10 rangers will only give you 2 precision hits at long range, 4 at close range. Maybe half those wound and then you have armor saves.
Focus Fire was so powerful because ALL the shots went on that one guy, not just 1/4 (or 1/5 with upped BS)
So people are saying that Arc Rifles are better on Vanguard than Rangers, but from how I see it you will want to be shooting Arc Rifles at vehicles 90% of the time right? And Vanguard's weapons are only str 3, so they can literally never even scratch a vehicle.
I'm leaning towards Arc Rifles on Rangers since they have str 4 guns, so can have a chance at glancing armor 10 at least.
Leth wrote: One thing I don't see people talking about enough with the Rangers is precision shot. Have we already forgot how powerful it combined with focus fire was in 6th? Now we have a unit with rapid fire guns that has it always. Make em bs 6 and now on the re roll of it hits, it's precision shots
Precision shots are powerful but situational. Particularly with Tau, Eldar, and Necrons being top teir they dont have many special weapons.
Still 10 rangers will only give you 2 precision hits at long range, 4 at close range. Maybe half those wound and then you have armor saves.
Focus Fire was so powerful because ALL the shots went on that one guy, not just 1/4 (or 1/5 with upped BS)
Sometimes its not about the special weapons guy. Sometimes you want to kill a guy that is barely maintaining coherency. Sometimes you want to remove specific models so now they have to take a longer path around. Sometimes you want to kill the guy at the tail end of the buff aura. I mean imagine it on overwatch and now you kill the guy that makes it so they don't have to go through cover? Or get some wounds around the tank commander to the drones that are easy kills. Or around the broadsides so that they cant LOS to drones when your plasma hits.
When you get down to the nitty gritty tactics of casualty removal it becomes pretty significant.
Playing with lists, I am increasingly liking the look of my Grey Knights and Skitarii together. GK need cheap bodies and more threat vectors, and boy do Skitarii fit the bill.
I'd say Skitarii elites are a no-no in such a list since the Knights bring all the CC/anti-Elite you could want, but around 1500pts, GK/Skitarii start looking MEAN with room for two Dreadknights, a couple small squads of Deepstriking Termies, and a Libby who could potential Gate Vanguards around like a baby Cent-Star.
At 1850pts, you start being able to consider a mini Draigo-star with him synergizing incredibly well with Vanguard.
Leth wrote: I mean imagine it on overwatch and now you kill the guy that makes it so they don't have to go through cover?
Im confused on this. In what situation could one guy prevent a squad from having to charge through cover? Isnt the rule that the whole unit fights at I1 if at least one model charges through difficult terrain? In that scenario it would seem the best you could do is help the opponent by taking out the guy who IS charging through difficult terrain thus allowing the unit to fight at their normal initiative, though I dont see why anyone would want to do that.
Leth wrote: I mean imagine it on overwatch and now you kill the guy that makes it so they don't have to go through cover?
Im confused on this. In what situation could one guy prevent a squad from having to charge through cover? Isnt the rule that the whole unit fights at I1 if at least one model charges through difficult terrain? In that scenario it would seem the best you could do is help the opponent by taking out the guy who IS charging through difficult terrain thus allowing the unit to fight at their normal initiative, though I dont see why anyone would want to do that.
you have to charge closest to closest and then move models to engage. If any of those models cross through cover then you have to roll through difficult terrain and end up striking at init1. If you see a set up where killing 1-2 models means that going closest to closest no longer takes your through cover, then you gain a great tactical advantage knocking them off.
Of course you have to have models that want to get into combat in the first place.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Playing with lists, I am increasingly liking the look of my Grey Knights and Skitarii together. GK need cheap bodies and more threat vectors, and boy do Skitarii fit the bill.
I'd say Skitarii elites are a no-no in such a list since the Knights bring all the CC/anti-Elite you could want, but around 1500pts, GK/Skitarii start looking MEAN with room for two Dreadknights, a couple small squads of Deepstriking Termies, and a Libby who could potential Gate Vanguards around like a baby Cent-Star.
At 1850pts, you start being able to consider a mini Draigo-star with him synergizing incredibly well with Vanguard.
I somewhat disagree regarding Skitarii elites- the Infiltrators bring a slick debuff aura that provides -1 WS/BS/I/Ld, which might make all the difference to some GK facepunchers that are in combat. Also, the default wargear for Ruststalkers includes Haywire Grenades, which helps kill vehicles very dead.
This being said, for anti-vehicle duties as a complement to GKs, you'll more likely want Onagers with either Neutron Lasers or Icarus Arrays, or Dragoons with Taser Lances; a pair of the latter can reliably kill most vehicles in a single charge.
Something I am wondering is how the Onager with Neutron Laser will compete with the Leman Russ Vanquisher. They seem to occupy a similar role, the difference being that the Vanquisher is a single shot with 2D6 pen, the Onager being blast at S10Ap1. I am somewhat leaning toward the Onager being the better choice with the single turn BS7 and an invuln save.
Arguably the Russ is actually more durable, given that it's AV14/13/10, rather than 12/12/11.
The Onager can also be tied up in combat, where it will most likely spend the rest of the game, much like DevCents are one of the most tarpit-able units in the game (if you can get to combat, at least).
Also, the Onager's gun is 48", rather than 72" like the Vanquisher... on most boards this isn't likely to be a big deal, but it is worth noting.
What makes Onagers worth it, IMO, is that they're not that expensive to work into a squadron that can get a 4++. They arguably have a more generally accurate weapon, since it's a blast, and they ignore terrain penalties.
Whiskey144 wrote: Arguably the Russ is actually more durable, given that it's AV14/13/10, rather than 12/12/11.
The Onager can also be tied up in combat, where it will most likely spend the rest of the game, much like DevCents are one of the most tarpit-able units in the game (if you can get to combat, at least).
Also, the Onager's gun is 48", rather than 72" like the Vanquisher... on most boards this isn't likely to be a big deal, but it is worth noting.
What makes Onagers worth it, IMO, is that they're not that expensive to work into a squadron that can get a 4++. They arguably have a more generally accurate weapon, since it's a blast, and they ignore terrain penalties.
While the Onager can get tied up in combat, the LR are likely to get wrecked in combat.
AV12 with a 4++(if the sheild works in combat) hitting on WS is a lot better than AV11, no save autohitting(do they still auto hit if they dont move?)
Whiskey144 wrote: Arguably the Russ is actually more durable, given that it's AV14/13/10, rather than 12/12/11.
The Onager can also be tied up in combat, where it will most likely spend the rest of the game, much like DevCents are one of the most tarpit-able units in the game (if you can get to combat, at least).
Also, the Onager's gun is 48", rather than 72" like the Vanquisher... on most boards this isn't likely to be a big deal, but it is worth noting.
What makes Onagers worth it, IMO, is that they're not that expensive to work into a squadron that can get a 4++. They arguably have a more generally accurate weapon, since it's a blast, and they ignore terrain penalties.
While the Onager can get tied up in combat, the LR are likely to get wrecked in combat.
AV12 with a 4++(if the sheild works in combat) hitting on WS is a lot better than AV11, no save autohitting(do they still auto hit if they dont move?)
I believe that it is still auto-hit in combat if a non-Walker vehicle sits there, but the Russes have very little incentive to sit still- even if they just move back and forth every turn, because they're a Heavy vehicle, they're always considered to be stationary for the purposes of shooting.
I don't disagree that the Russ would get destroyed if caught up in a charge, but the thing is that a Russ could potentially camp the absolute back edge of a typical 6x4' board, even deploying on the short edges, and it's not likely to actually be charged. OTOH, a single Vanquisher is also not that big a deal- it'll get three hits in the course of a game.
It's a real shame, IMO, that GW hasn't included coaxial guns for the Russes, particularly the Vanquisher- the FW-only option to give it a Coaxial Heavy Stubber is amazing because all you have to do is land one hit on something with the Stubber and the Vanquisher Cannon becomes twin-linked. The only downside is that you have to be in Heavy Stubber range- 36"- in order to benefit from the Coaxial rule.
OTOH, there is also the fancy Conqueror, which in its current iteration is actually a Fast vehicle. Yes, there is now a vehicle with AV14/13/10 armor and Fast status.
In any case, an Onager battery could potentially mix primary weapons around, as there's some new information which suggests that the Icarus Array may always fire all three weapons that compose the array, and that:
1) the Autocannon component of the Icarus Array has Interceptor (!)
2) the "separate" weapons of the Array may fire on different targets (!)
Presumably this could allow for squadrons of 2/1 or 1/2 mixings of Neutron Laser/Icarus Array. There's also tell of a new Phosphor weapon for the Onager, that's AP3. I'm thinking though, that you're generally going to want Neutron Lasers or Icarus Arrays, possibly mixing them together.
TBH Onagers might be the best Imperial AA solution- the other options generally have slight advantages*, mostly that they're cheaper than an Icarus Onager, but there's nothing that has a weapon that can fire in Interceptor "mode", and two more in reserve for the controlling player's shooting phase, one of which Ignores Cover, and therefore ignores Jink!
The more I look at Onagers the more I like them; at this point the only thing I dislike is that the HH armies can't ally with the 40K armies!
*For the record, an Icarus Onager is a 12/12/11 3HP Walker with BS4, and costs 90 pts base plus, IIRC, 45 for the Icarus; 135 points for 12/12/11 3HP BS4 with a twin-linked, Skyfire, Interceptor Autocannon, Skyfire Plasma Gun shot, and a 5-shot S6/AP4 Ignores Cover missile doohickey.
For comparison:
Hydras cost 70 points, are 12/10/10 3HP Open-Topped BS3, with two twin-linked Hydra Autocannons (AC w/ Skyfire & 72" range); alas Hydras lost their anti-jink rule
Stalkers cost 75 pts, for 12/12/10**, 3HP, BS4, with the Icarus Stormcannon Array (that'll be confusing shortly), which is basically two ACs with Skyfire and Twin-Link, plus a funky rule to split fire at BS2
Hunters are 70 pts for 12/12/10 3HP BS4 with a single S7/AP2 Armorbane shot with 60" of range and a funky-but-also-cool rule that can make misses turn into tailing missiles
Hyperios Whirlwinds are 110 pts for 11/11/10 3HP BS4 with a Interceptor/Skyfire Krak Missile (worst AA ever)
Tarantula Sentry Guns with Hyperios Launchers, which is 35 ppm, for a BS3 T6/2W/3+ artillery unit with no crew requirement (this is actually not bad, since it's so cheap)
Onagers are basically the best surface-based AA option for Imperial armies in the game. They've got a price to match, costing around twice as much, but they're also one of few options for Interceptor-capable AA, and they can ignore Jink saves with one of their weapons, and they can split fire between their weapons to fire at multiple targets!
**I'll never understand how SM ground AA vehicles have better side armor than the SM battle tank. Or why the AA got better armor than the Whirlwinds or Razorback. If I had my way, then Predators and Vindicators would be side armor 12, while Razors, Whirlwinds, and the Hunter/Stalker would be AV12 front and AV11 side- a slight "nerf" to the protection of the Stalker and Hunter, but a nice buff to the Razor and WW, and better suiting their frontline support role.
Well, honestly my favorite part of the Icarus-Onager is that the Icarus Array has a weapon with Interceptor- but it can then fire the other two during its own Shooting Phase.
The only real downside is that it'll be an upward struggle against AV12 flyers, and a lot of the "better" ones tend to be AV12 on most of their facings.
Leth wrote: Vehicles regardless of movement speed are WS1 for combat unless immobilized then ws0 and auto hit. Walkers use their own weaponskill
So the ironic thing about Ruststalkers is now that they need to be in a bigger squad to Haywire things to death with their grenades, while Infiltrators can just take Taser Goads and glance things down with a mass of S6 attacks. About the only thing going in the favor of Ruststalkers is that the Mindscrambler Grenades make them a lot more dangerous to Walkers in combat as well as able to wreck anything with AV12+ rear armor.
TheMisterBold wrote: Does anyone have the weapons for the Onagers? I need to find out. A link is also acceptable.
I believe that they're more-or-less as follows:
Icarus Array
Spoiler:
Consists of 3 weapons; the wording from the Faeit 212 leak suggests that the Twin Icarus ACs have to be fired with Interceptor before you can fire the other two weapons at separate targets. Note that the Twin Icarus AC firing as Interceptor doesn't prevent the Daedalus and the Gatling Rockets from being fired, and it's also likely that you can use it as a sort of split fire if you take a full battery of Onagers and arm one of them with the Icarus Array and the others with a different weapon.
Daedalus Missile Launcher: 48" Heavy 1 S7 AP2 Skyfire
Twin Icarus Autocannon: 48" Heavy 2 S7 AP4 Skyfire, Interceptor
Gatling Rocket Launcher: 48" Heavy 5 S6 AP4 Skyfire, Ignores Cover
Neutron Laser
Spoiler:
48" Heavy 1 S10 AP1 Small (3") Blast, Concussive
Eradication Beamer
Spoiler:
0-9" Heavy 1 S10 AP1
9-18" Heavy 1 S8 AP3 Small (3") Blast
18-36" Heavy 1 S6 AP5 Large (5") Blast
Heavy Phosphor Blaster
Spoiler:
36" Heavy 3 S6 AP3 Luminagen
This particular gun is used in a Twin-Linked mount on the Onager
This last one is the same as the other Phosphor weapons, where if you inflict unsaved wounds/glances/pens the target unit takes a -1 penalty to its cover saves. Since it's S6/AP3 it's a bit more likely to push wounds through, making it a potentially handy army support unit... though hopefully it'll be a cheap option, as the opportunity cost of taking the Heavy Phosphor compared to getting Neutron Lasers or the Icarus Array is pretty hard to swallow, IMO.
Also, Onagers can take something called a "Cognis Heavy Stubber", which is just a fancy Heavy Stubber that can Snap Shoot at BS2 instead of BS1.
On the whole, Eradication Beamers are pretty bad, while Neutron Lasers and Icarus Arrays are the best options, IMO. The Heavy Phosphor Blaster has some great potential synergy, as you can combine it with the Omnispex for a total -2 to cover saves; I can't remember offhand, but does the wording of the Luminagen rule sound like it stacks? Because if that's the case, then you have some... interesting... potential for combing Phosphor-Onagers, Dragoons with Phosphor Serpentas, and Omnispexes (as well as Phosphor pistols) to get a potential -4 to cover.
Oh, and the Cognis Stubber is an extra weapon; I'd say that it'll likely be very important for Neutron Laser/Phosphor Blaster Onagers so that they aren't rendered 99% useless from taking a Weapon Destroyed result, while Icarus Onagers will depend on whether the Icarus Array is treated as one or three weapons for the purposes of damage results.
Whiskey144 wrote: Oh, and the Cognis Stubber is an extra weapon; I'd say that it'll likely be very important for Neutron Laser/Phosphor Blaster Onagers so that they aren't rendered 99% useless from taking a Weapon Destroyed result, while Icarus Onagers will depend on whether the Icarus Array is treated as one or three weapons for the purposes of damage results.
Stubber only goes with the Neutron Laser. Which means the stock Onager has only one weapon and the Phophor Blaster upgraded version also only has one weapon (since the beamer gets replaced).
I would sure as heck hope the array counts as three weapons because it is three weapons with different profiles. But who knows.
Super Newb wrote: Stubber only goes with the Neutron Laser. Which means the stock Onager has only one weapon and the Phophor Blaster upgraded version also only has one weapon (since the beamer gets replaced).
I would sure as heck hope the array counts as three weapons because it is three weapons with different profiles. But who knows.
Are you sure? That doesn't seem like it would make sense for the Stubber to only go with one weapon option. OTOH, this is GeeDubs, so...
Also, the way that the Icarus Array is worded isn't clear as to whether or not the idea is that it's a unified mount for several weapon systems- in which case one weapon being damaged/destroyed would affect all of them- or if it's an "Array" because it's simply purchased/organized as a single wargear option.
The former isn't necessarily without precedence either; for those vehicles which can take Coaxial weapons the coax gun is considered to be part of the weapon that it's attached to; IE, the coax AC of a Baneblade is considered to be part of the Baneblade Cannon for damage purposes. Another example would be the FWLR Conqueror and LR Vanquisher; the former has a coax Stormbolter that is considered to be part of the Conqueror Cannon, so if the Cannon goes so does the coax, while the LR Vanquisher in FW armies/options can take a coax Stormbolter or Heavy Stubber (obviously the Stubber is the superior option*), and using a coax on the Vanquisher Cannon means that the coax gun is considered, once again, to be part of the Vanquisher Cannon for the purposes of damage results.
*The whole point of Coax guns is to twin-link whatever they're attached to. To do this you'll need to get at least one successful To-Hit roll with the Coax gun. Since this is the case, the Heavy Stubber is superior since it offers more shots to twin-link the main gun with, as well as a longer range (36 vs 24) that the main gun can gain twin-link via Coax.
Leth wrote: You can fire any or all of the weapons on the array in any turn.
Not quite; only the Icarus AC has Interceptor, so it's the only thing that can fire during the enemy's turn.
Oh, and who else thinks that the Daedalus ML is pretty terrible? It's a single S7/AP2 shot, and it doesn't really have any extra benefit beyond being AP2; in order to get weight of fire with S7 you'll need to hold the Icarus ACs until your own Shooting Phase since the Daedalus doesn't get Interceptor.
It's not like the Hunter, where even though it's a single shot it has the redeeming qualities in that it can actually turn a miss into a potential rear armor hit (very nice against Valkyrie style fliers that have stellar front/side armor but poor rear armor), plus the Hunter's weapon has Armorbane.
But the Daedalus ML? It's just a single S7/AP2 shot.
Super Newb wrote: Stubber only goes with the Neutron Laser. Which means the stock Onager has only one weapon and the Phophor Blaster upgraded version also only has one weapon (since the beamer gets replaced).
I would sure as heck hope the array counts as three weapons because it is three weapons with different profiles. But who knows.
Are you sure? That doesn't seem like it would make sense for the Stubber to only go with one weapon option. OTOH, this is GeeDubs, so...
I am as sure as can be without having the book in my hands lol. The rules have been leaked, the images are in the rumor thread. So unless someone did some fancy image manipulation that's how it is.
Oh, and who else thinks that the Daedalus ML is pretty terrible? It's a single S7/AP2 shot, and it doesn't really have any extra benefit beyond being AP2; in order to get weight of fire with S7 you'll need to hold the Icarus ACs until your own Shooting Phase since the Daedalus doesn't get Interceptor.
It's not like the Hunter, where even though it's a single shot it has the redeeming qualities in that it can actually turn a miss into a potential rear armor hit (very nice against Valkyrie style fliers that have stellar front/side armor but poor rear armor), plus the Hunter's weapon has Armorbane.
But the Daedalus ML? It's just a single S7/AP2 shot.
It's an option that only comes with the Icarus array. it cant be taken without it, and with it it's free. Hard to say something sucks when it has not price or counter option.
Remember GW designs models and then designs rules for them. We are lucky we the two types of missiles modeled didnt end up being just a regular missile launcher with Krak and Frag.
Oh, and who else thinks that the Daedalus ML is pretty terrible? It's a single S7/AP2 shot, and it doesn't really have any extra benefit beyond being AP2; in order to get weight of fire with S7 you'll need to hold the Icarus ACs until your own Shooting Phase since the Daedalus doesn't get Interceptor.
It's not like the Hunter, where even though it's a single shot it has the redeeming qualities in that it can actually turn a miss into a potential rear armor hit (very nice against Valkyrie style fliers that have stellar front/side armor but poor rear armor), plus the Hunter's weapon has Armorbane.
But the Daedalus ML? It's just a single S7/AP2 shot.
Remember GW designs models and then designs rules for them. We are lucky we the two types of missiles modeled didnt end up being just a regular missile launcher with Flakk only.
Oh, and who else thinks that the Daedalus ML is pretty terrible? It's a single S7/AP2 shot, and it doesn't really have any extra benefit beyond being AP2; in order to get weight of fire with S7 you'll need to hold the Icarus ACs until your own Shooting Phase since the Daedalus doesn't get Interceptor.
It's not like the Hunter, where even though it's a single shot it has the redeeming qualities in that it can actually turn a miss into a potential rear armor hit (very nice against Valkyrie style fliers that have stellar front/side armor but poor rear armor), plus the Hunter's weapon has Armorbane.
But the Daedalus ML? It's just a single S7/AP2 shot.
Remember GW designs models and then designs rules for them. We are lucky we the two types of missiles modeled didnt end up being just a regular missile launcher with Flakk only.
Daedalus Missile Launcher: 48" Heavy 1 S7 AP2 Skyfire
Twin Icarus Autocannon: 48" Heavy 2 S7 AP4 Skyfire, Interceptor
Gatling Rocket Launcher: 48" Heavy 5 S6 AP4 Skyfire, Ignores Cover.
There is way too much thought going into 1/3rd of the s7 shots.
Bottom line is it's 8 shots at s6 and s7. It's going to be really good against fmc, jet bikes, and av10 or 11 skimmers aND flyers. It's not going to be good against AV 12 and 13 Unless a misfortune is involved.
My point was mainly that the Daedalus is a single S7/AP2 shot, since you'll probably fire the Icarus AC as Interceptor if you get the chance.
Which means you'll then have 5 S6/Ignore Cover shots and a single S7/AP2 shot on your turn. The S6/Ignore Cover is badass, and will shred a whole lot of things, particularly since Ignore Cover means that it bypasses Jink.
But that single S7/AP2 shot isn't going to have very much that it can do in terms of being useful. Maybe a potshot at an FMC, but there's a lot more armies without FMCs than those that have them.
Whiskey144 wrote: My point was mainly that the Daedalus is a single S7/AP2 shot, since you'll probably fire the Icarus AC as Interceptor if you get the chance.
Which means you'll then have 5 S6/Ignore Cover shots and a single S7/AP2 shot on your turn. The S6/Ignore Cover is badass, and will shred a whole lot of things, particularly since Ignore Cover means that it bypasses Jink.
But that single S7/AP2 shot isn't going to have very much that it can do in terms of being useful. Maybe a potshot at an FMC, but there's a lot more armies without FMCs than those that have them.
Sure
it isnt reliable
it isnt specialized
it isnt the things powergamers really like
but it's effective. You get a lot of shots, this gives you another shot that ignores armor but doesnt ignore cover.
Ignoring cover is boss, but on an AP5 weapon how many FMC are going to jink? Most have better than 5+ armor or at least have a 5++. I think ignores cover is going to be better when going after vehicles.
Str7 AP2 doesnt synergize perfectly with Str6 AP5 ignores cover, but in the realm of skyfire, how often do you have 2 different types of skyfire targets? All dakka goes on the same thing till you bring it down.
Also it's cinematic. It wont blow up too many vehicles, but it will blow up more than none.
I wonder if is better to use the big giant crab to shoot ground targets with the s10 gun option it has.
People could take several of those chicken looking models I mean the Ironstrider and have a bunch of those twin-linked BS2 instead of BS1 autocannons when firing at flyers. And if there are no flyers they can actually shoot ground targets.
Super Newb wrote: Stubber only goes with the Neutron Laser. Which means the stock Onager has only one weapon and the Phophor Blaster upgraded version also only has one weapon (since the beamer gets replaced).
I would sure as heck hope the array counts as three weapons because it is three weapons with different profiles. But who knows.
Are you sure? That doesn't seem like it would make sense for the Stubber to only go with one weapon option. OTOH, this is GeeDubs, so...
I am as sure as can be without having the book in my hands lol. The rules have been leaked, the images are in the rumor thread. So unless someone did some fancy image manipulation that's how it is.
Disregard. I am seeing multiple people saying that the stubber can be purchased separately. It comes with the neutron laser, yes, but the stubber is also one of the things that the Onager can purchase separately from the vehicle equipment list.
Whiskey144 wrote: My point was mainly that the Daedalus is a single S7/AP2 shot, since you'll probably fire the Icarus AC as Interceptor if you get the chance.
Which means you'll then have 5 S6/Ignore Cover shots and a single S7/AP2 shot on your turn. The S6/Ignore Cover is badass, and will shred a whole lot of things, particularly since Ignore Cover means that it bypasses Jink.
But that single S7/AP2 shot isn't going to have very much that it can do in terms of being useful. Maybe a potshot at an FMC, but there's a lot more armies without FMCs than those that have them.
You might be missing something here. If everything ignores cover, then there is no reason to jink as it does you no good. Completely irrelevant if you kill the target outright, but annoying if you don't. Not ignoring cover with the most likely shot to wound may work in your favor by forcing the jink and hedging against not outright killing the target.
Example. 5 S6 shots at BS 4 Vs. Flyrant (one of if not most common FMC's):
So, you're not exactly swatting bugs out of the air with these guys. That single S7 AP2 shot OtOH does another .43 wounds if they don't jink. It nearly doubles the damage output on a non-jinking FMC. So your opponent needs to decide if he can roll the dice and assume you roll avg or below with the missles and just take the Ap2 shot, or play it safe and Jink. In short, the AP2 is a hedge against FMC's that at leasts gives you the opportunity to reduce their dmg output should you not kill them.
Super Newb wrote: I wonder if is better to use the big giant crab to shoot ground targets with the s10 gun option it has.
People could take several of those chicken looking models I mean the Ironstrider and have a bunch of those twin-linked BS2 instead of BS1 autocannons when firing at flyers. And if there are no flyers they can actually shoot ground targets.
Guess it depends on the meta...
And on how much things cost. We still dont know how much the crab costs with the Neutron Laser
Super Newb wrote: I wonder if is better to use the big giant crab to shoot ground targets with the s10 gun option it has.
People could take several of those chicken looking models I mean the Ironstrider and have a bunch of those twin-linked BS2 instead of BS1 autocannons when firing at flyers. And if there are no flyers they can actually shoot ground targets.
Guess it depends on the meta...
And on how much things cost. We still dont know how much the crab costs with the Neutron Laser
Yes we do. The Laser (which includes a free stubber lol) is a 25 point upgrade. Onager is 90 points base.
The Phoso whatever gun is 15, the Laser is 25, the Array is 35.
One of the nice things is that skyfire can still shoot certain targets on the ground without snap firing.
The problem is that I have no idea what will happen to the meta with the (hopefully) upcoming wave serpent nerf. I mean that unit single handedly prevents entire builds from working. It will be interesting to see what happens.
Super Newb wrote: I wonder if is better to use the big giant crab to shoot ground targets with the s10 gun option it has.
People could take several of those chicken looking models I mean the Ironstrider and have a bunch of those twin-linked BS2 instead of BS1 autocannons when firing at flyers. And if there are no flyers they can actually shoot ground targets.
Guess it depends on the meta...
And on how much things cost. We still dont know how much the crab costs with the Neutron Laser
Yes we do. The Laser (which includes a free stubber lol) is a 25 point upgrade. Onager is 90 points base.
The Phoso whatever gun is 15, the Laser is 25, the Array is 35.
Where, I haven't seen any scans of anything but the base cost and armor.
Where, I haven't seen any scans of anything but the base cost and armor.
In the rumor thread. Here and on 3 other sites I also happen to look at. They are out there for you to find...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Lol, I even linked to it earlier in this thread... though it wasn't explicit that all the points costs were there. (Well almost all, the vehicle equipment list I still haven't seen with my own eyes though it supposedly is out there too)
Sorry my mistake it was two screamers 1 did 1 hullpoint, the other did an explode result for 4. Total of 5....from two screamers.....after they saved the HOW
Also something to consider is that the dunestalker rule says a "unit" with this special rule moves faster. That means that attached characters should still move faster unless I am missing something. So now you can attach IC's without being slowed down. Think it also will apply if they disembark from a transport as well. So move 6, disembark 9, charge 2d6 +3.....thats some scary movement.
I highly doubt people would just allow you to move your IC nine inches that would normally move 6 just because you attached them to a unit of Sicarians. Great. Another RAI vs. RAW argument. GW do you not fething speak english? You would think they would have people proofread these things. They're from the country that invented the damn language for grots sake.
One of the things I have heard is that British English, grammar, and interpretation can be very different from ours. A lot of these issues dont even register from the british interpretation. By strict american interpretation there is some ambiguity.
For example in american english we assume we can do something unless we are told we cant, where as in british interpretation you cant do it unless it explicitly says you can. When coming at rules from this perspective it is quite easy to see where the rules issues could come up in interpretation.
Once again I am not saying this is fact, just one of the things I have heard over the years.
Leth wrote: One of the things I have heard is that British English, grammar, and interpretation can be very different from ours. A lot of these issues dont even register from the british interpretation. By strict american interpretation there is some ambiguity.
That statement seems to have absolutely nothing to do with the reality of the 'You Make Da Call" section. Lol.
Anyway, back to Tactics
Three big crabs is nice and all to get the 4++, but they all have to stay within 4 inches of each other for that! And those Onager crabs are huge! Three 100mm bases in a triangle. I feel like staying in that triangle formation would be a huge headache on the field, especially assuming if one plays with the proper amount of terrain. I'm thinking of maybe only running two Onagers to keep myself a little more sane...
Three big crabs is nice and all to get the 4++, but they all have to stay within 4 inches of each other for that! And those Onager crabs are huge! Three 100mm bases in a triangle. I feel like staying in that triangle formation would be a huge headache on the field, especially assuming if one plays with the proper amount of terrain. I'm thinking of maybe only running two Onagers to keep myself a little more sane...
At least with the seemingly popular options of Neutron Laser and Icarus Array you have the range to stay put mostly.
For list building, the Battlescribe Skitarii file is complete now. I've got the English Codex.
The Dunecrawler can always take an extra Cognis Heavy Stubber for 5 points, even if it already has one with the Neutron Laser. But a Dunecrawler with an Icarus Array cannot take 5pt Smoke Launchers.
axisofentropy wrote: For list building, the Battlescribe Skitarii file is complete now. I've got the English Codex.
The Dunecrawler can always take an extra Cognis Heavy Stubber for 5 points, even if it already has one with the Neutron Laser. But a Dunecrawler with an Icarus Array cannot take 5pt Smoke Launchers.
So odd. To both statements. I doubt Gee Dubs intended the Onager to have two stubbers and a laser.
Smoke Launchers seem pointless anyway provided you at least have two Onagers in a squad.
Leth wrote: One of the things I have heard is that British English, grammar, and interpretation can be very different from ours. A lot of these issues dont even register from the british interpretation. By strict american interpretation there is some ambiguity.
That statement seems to have absolutely nothing to do with the reality of the 'You Make Da Call" section. Lol.
Anyway, back to Tactics
Three big crabs is nice and all to get the 4++, but they all have to stay within 4 inches of each other for that! And those Onager crabs are huge! Three 100mm bases in a triangle. I feel like staying in that triangle formation would be a huge headache on the field, especially assuming if one plays with the proper amount of terrain. I'm thinking of maybe only running two Onagers to keep myself a little more sane...
I was referencing the statement that they are incapable of writing good english with their rules, and it lends towards an interpretation that is closer to RAI instead of RAW. But that is neither here nor there.
I am excited by the possibilities that come from the assault units combined with allied inq or marines. Many possibilities there, especially with FW vehicles
So if I only had money for one, which would work better. 5x Ruststalkers or 5x infiltrators? Mostly going to be supported by roughly 3 vanguard, 20 rangers, and probably 3 spider tanks of indeterminate loadout yet.
Orock wrote: So if I only had money for one, which would work better. 5x Ruststalkers or 5x infiltrators? Mostly going to be supported by roughly 3 vanguard, 20 rangers, and probably 3 spider tanks of indeterminate loadout yet.
Im leaning towards 30 vanguard, 5 infiltrators, 10 rangers, and 3 tanks. I think the infiltrators are better than the ruststalkers. Got some proxies I will try for ruststalkers, but i think the infiltrators are better.
I've allied my Ad mech with my Armored Battle Company. It was a pretty nice blend of units. Vangaurd in a Vendetta very effective at dealing with infantry.
Verv I would make at the very least your Ranger squad into 2 5man squads to allow for more versatility in objective grabbing. I also am of the opinion that 2 Arc rifles + Arc Pistol is more than enough haywire to get the job done. So you could save some points there.
A unit of infiltrators with a Xenos Inquisitor, where the inquisitor has rad grenades and the princeps has the Pater Radium.
They'd do a fair amount of damage solo, but then at Initiative step 1 they cause a toughness test at -2 toughness. Inflicting D6 wounds if the test is failed.
Am I missing something? The Onager equipped with Icarus Array seems awesome as an allied force for so many Imperium armies, no?
To take a Maniple, the tax is tiny. Plus the Rangers/Vanguard are useful anyhow. You get 4 heavy support slot, each of which can take 3 Onagers -- so any number up to 12.
The Onager with an Icarus Array is 125 points, and gives you: - Tanky: AV12 3HP Invulnerable save that you can arrange your dunecrawlers easily to give 2+ (4 units in a diamond within 4" of each other). - 3 great weapons that give you a total of 8 rolls at 48" with amazing specials like Skyfire on all of them, and Ignores Cover on five S6AP4 rolls. It's just so flexible. - The Doctrina Imperatives, giving you good Ballistics Skill for 3 rounds. - You have great flexibility in whether you want your Onagers in a small number of units (to benefit from buffs, for example), or individual units (to spread out targeting).
It just seems perfect to ally if you need some skyfire, or ranged support. And invisibility to it, and that looks like a pretty dangerous threat. Point for point, it looks great against Flyrant spam, plus, it gives you enough rolls and durability to more than pull its weight in points.
This is something I was brainstorming today when I was reading the Codex and assembling some newly bought Skitarii.
The idea here is a strategy that got loosely inspired by a mixture of the Roman Triplex Acies (I know, I know, Sun Tzu fallacy/ancient warfare anachronism fallacy, but hear me out), trying to think of ways to counter Necron Wraith abuse, and the Astra Militarum list with a tank wall and mech infantry I've run in the past.
The Skitarii Vanguard are 10 man units and have triple Arc Rifles to lay down haywire fire onto vehicles as they advance and absorb charges or advance and enact charges against enemy infantry. The Sydonian Dragoons then flank around and charge the melee infantry reactively and try to blitz them with a combination of S8 attacks and the -1T nerf that Skitarii Vanguard give to units locked in melee with them.
Doing the math (by which I mean lazily plugging things into Battlescribe's dice tools) 24 attacks with one of the melee Doctrina Imperative protocols in effect (hence giving 3's to hit) will kill exactly 4.4 Wraiths alone in the first round from the Dragoons alone. Complications and losses are obviously possible to reduce your attack volume but you're still looking at a pretty strong defence against Wraiths once you factor in the Vanguard's attacks as well, providing you've taken something like a maul in there. I guess you could also take Sicaran Rust Stalkers in place of the Sydonian Dragoons, but at the moment I think the Dragoons are more cost effective.
The Onagers with Neutron Lasers can multi-role anti-tank/anti-MC fire/anti-infantry fire, most interesting the latter since with two BS4 Cognis Heavy Stubbers and a S10 AP1 small blast per Onager you should be able to pile on some hurt. For extra firepower, two full Skitarii Ranger squads provide support from the rear with 2 plasma calivers per unit and a transuranic arquebus.
The Onager AA obviously doesn't really have to be anywhere near the formation, but they can do a fairly capable job of shooting at flyers and skimmers. After, I have 2 squads of 5 Rangers with a transuranic arquebus in each for home objective holding and guarding the Warlord.
I can't say for certain whether or not this is a sound idea but this is something I think I'm definitely going to try once I build up a reasonably sized force. What are your thoughts, people?
- Tanky: AV12 3HP Invulnerable save that you can arrange your dunecrawlers easily to give 2+ (4 units in a diamond within 4" of each other)
You can't get a 2++ as the field bonus only affects vehicles in the same squadron - max is 4++ due to the max of 3 per squad
yeah 4++ is the best you're gonna get. although you can also for an additional 25 points per model get IWND so yeah pretty damned durable if you're willing to sink the points into it
TranSpyre wrote: A unit of infiltrators with a Xenos Inquisitor, where the inquisitor has rad grenades and the princeps has the Pater Radium.
They'd do a fair amount of damage solo, but then at Initiative step 1 they cause a toughness test at -2 toughness. Inflicting D6 wounds if the test is failed.
I don't think that an Inquisitor can join the Sicarian Infiltrators, given that they have the Infiltrate rule and the Inquisitor doesn't. Also, where are you getting the -2 Toughness? Rad Grenades are -1T; does the relic you mentioned also inflict a -1T penalty?
Talys wrote: Am I missing something? The Onager equipped with Icarus Array seems awesome as an allied force for so many Imperium armies, no?
To take a Maniple, the tax is tiny. Plus the Rangers/Vanguard are useful anyhow. You get 4 heavy support slot, each of which can take 3 Onagers -- so any number up to 12.
The Onager with an Icarus Array is 125 points, and gives you:
- Tanky: AV12 3HP Invulnerable save that you can arrange your dunecrawlers easily to give 2+ (4 units in a diamond within 4" of each other).
- 3 great weapons that give you a total of 8 rolls at 48" with amazing specials like Skyfire on all of them, and Ignores Cover on five S6AP4 rolls. It's just so flexible.
- The Doctrina Imperatives, giving you good Ballistics Skill for 3 rounds.
- You have great flexibility in whether you want your Onagers in a small number of units (to benefit from buffs, for example), or individual units (to spread out targeting).
It just seems perfect to ally if you need some skyfire, or ranged support. And invisibility to it, and that looks like a pretty dangerous threat. Point for point, it looks great against Flyrant spam, plus, it gives you enough rolls and durability to more than pull its weight in points.
As has been pointed out, you can only get up to a 4++ due to the rule only affecting vehicles that are squadroned together. Also, even if you could extend it to non-squadron members, it would cap at 3++ with 4 members; remember, they start at 6++, and gain +1 per member, for a total of 4++ in a squadron.
This being said, you are correct. Skitarii seem like a fantastic way to fill the gaps that exist in many Imperial books. Perhaps the greatest benefactors, IMO, will be GKs and Sisters. GKs will be getting better on-field presence if you go DS heavy with the Knights, as well as much need long range firepower. Sisters gain much the same thing, but most critically they gain an anti-air/-skimmer asset, in addition to long-range anti-armor and some nasty fast assault units.
This is something I was brainstorming today when I was reading the Codex and assembling some newly bought Skitarii.
The idea here is a strategy that got loosely inspired by a mixture of the Roman Triplex Acies (I know, I know, Sun Tzu fallacy/ancient warfare anachronism fallacy, but hear me out), trying to think of ways to counter Necron Wraith abuse, and the Astra Militarum list with a tank wall and mech infantry I've run in the past.
The Skitarii Vanguard are 10 man units and have triple Arc Rifles to lay down haywire fire onto vehicles as they advance and absorb charges or advance and enact charges against enemy infantry. The Sydonian Dragoons then flank around and charge the melee infantry reactively and try to blitz them with a combination of S8 attacks and the -1T nerf that Skitarii Vanguard give to units locked in melee with them.
Doing the math (by which I mean lazily plugging things into Battlescribe's dice tools) 24 attacks with one of the melee Doctrina Imperative protocols in effect (hence giving 3's to hit) will kill exactly 4.4 Wraiths alone in the first round from the Dragoons alone. Complications and losses are obviously possible to reduce your attack volume but you're still looking at a pretty strong defence against Wraiths once you factor in the Vanguard's attacks as well, providing you've taken something like a maul in there. I guess you could also take Sicaran Rust Stalkers in place of the Sydonian Dragoons, but at the moment I think the Dragoons are more cost effective.
The Onagers with Neutron Lasers can multi-role anti-tank/anti-MC fire/anti-infantry fire, most interesting the latter since with two BS4 Cognis Heavy Stubbers and a S10 AP1 small blast per Onager you should be able to pile on some hurt. For extra firepower, two full Skitarii Ranger squads provide support from the rear with 2 plasma calivers per unit and a transuranic arquebus.
The Onager AA obviously doesn't really have to be anywhere near the formation, but they can do a fairly capable job of shooting at flyers and skimmers. After, I have 2 squads of 5 Rangers with a transuranic arquebus in each for home objective holding and guarding the Warlord.
I can't say for certain whether or not this is a sound idea but this is something I think I'm definitely going to try once I build up a reasonably sized force. What are your thoughts, people?
I think that your approximation of dead Wraiths may be pessimistic. If you can charge the Wraiths with the Vanguard first, then the Wraiths will have to endure -1T... and then you charge in with the Dragoons, who are S8/I6 on the charge... and any Wraiths that fail their saves will be gibbed, on account of multi-wound T4 vs S8. If course, I haven't run any numbers in any way, so I may actually be overly optimistic in my prediction.
Also, if expecting to deal with Wraiths, I'd give the Vanguards Taser Goads rather than Arc Mauls- the AP4+Haywire of the Arc Maul isn't going to be helpful against the Wraiths, while the extra potential hits from the Goad probably will.
Anyone else here loving the sound of taking a minimum Vanguard squad armed with 2 Plasma Calivers, then giving the Alpha the Phosphoenix relic pistol? It actually costs less than another Caliver, and will auto-wound anything on 3+ (poison), Str 5 AP2. So yea it may not do as well against light/medium vehicles, but I feel like Plasma Caliver squad targets should be MEQ, TEQ, and MCs anyway. So its kind of like having another Caliver, just cheaper, slightly less range.
The Phosphoenix unfortunately suffers from being a gun with 6'' range that costs a lot.
there's only really one time that you're going to be in that sort of range, and that's if you're about to charge the unit, which you're particularly going to do anyway since you've got relentless on every skitarii. And if its worth being in charge range to shoot, its either guaranteed to die anyway most likely or so weak that the Phosphoenix is massive overkill.
- Tanky: AV12 3HP Invulnerable save that you can arrange your dunecrawlers easily to give 2+ (4 units in a diamond within 4" of each other)
You can't get a 2++ as the field bonus only affects vehicles in the same squadron - max is 4++ due to the max of 3 per squad
yeah 4++ is the best you're gonna get. although you can also for an additional 25 points per model get IWND so yeah pretty damned durable if you're willing to sink the points into it
Yeah, you guys are right. When I was reading it, "squadron" turned into "detachment" instead of "unit" mentally. Brain fart
Still, as you and others have said, 4++ is pretty good.
Still trying to find a use for some of the relics, is Omniscient Mask or Phase Taser worth taking on a Ruststalker or Infiltrator Princep? I really want to like the Phase Taser, it just seems really powerful for 15 points.
I think relics make sense in 10 man units that are otherwise maxed or also contain your warlord. I think the phase taser may help protect a warlord, and the mask may be worth giving a 10 Sicarian assault squad with a buffed Princeps.
Lack of ability to survive artillery or an Alpha strike. Skitarii as a standalone army is squishy. Their best armor save is 4+, and their highest AV is 12. Most wounds on a model is 2. Skitarii are very obviously not meant to fight alone, they are a glass cannon, they need some kind of toughness to take the damage. Imperial Knights, Leman Russ tanks from a Steel Host, Chapter Master Smashfether and grav bikers, Centurions with an invuln, units like these are needed to survive fire from the enemy.
ultimentra wrote: Lack of ability to survive artillery or an Alpha strike. Skitarii as a standalone army is squishy. Their best armor save is 4+, and their highest AV is 12. Most wounds on a model is 2. Skitarii are very obviously not meant to fight alone, they are a glass cannon, they need some kind of toughness to take the damage. Imperial Knights, Leman Russ tanks from a Steel Host, Chapter Master Smashfether and grav bikers, Centurions with an invuln, units like these are needed to survive fire from the enemy.
Very good points, I suppose they are quite squishy overall. What about running them with Knights and Inquisition?
Knights are gonna soak up a good amount of aggro, while moving up the board and will provide the survivability the Skitarii lack.
At the same time Inquisitors can provide buffs, shoot long range (Ordo Xenos) and give access to Valkyries to transport Skitarii up the board.
I'm thinking something like:
HQ:
Ordo Xenos Inquisitor with conversion beamer. (Put him in a squad of Rangers in the backfield) Add a band of henchmen to protect warlord and unlock Valkyries.
Troops:
Vanguard (Arch Rifles)
Rangers camping objectives
Elites:
Ruststalkers in Valkyries getting dropped off on top of the enemy.
FA:
Valkyries for transport and air support
Dragoons formation with taser lances coming in to flank enemy vehicles.
HS:
formation of Onagers with neutron laser/Icarus array mix
So the Pater Radium is probably better against larger squads, but I would say that the Phase Taser is the better relic for use against MC's and other big nasty fellows. It's really one of the only "remove from plays" left in the game now. Sure it's AP - but still, that chance of a remove from play could really be worth it. Alot of the big nasties have low initiative as well, so really its-
Pater Radium- Toughness test (better on things that T3)
Phase Taser- Initiative test (better on things that are slow)
Looking at unit builds I was thinking of the following. Vanguard are probably not worth the extra two points. It was a crap shoot at around the same but at a 2 point difference, not worth it IMO(unless running all skitarii)
So I am thinking, 5 mans with arc kit out and -1 cover.
Onagers I was thinking 3 mans, 2 with neutron laser and 1 with lumen gun and cognis and defensive aura. He is there to fire first, hopefully reduce cover before the big guys open up. He also will help the assaulty elements i got get where they need to be.
Leth wrote: Looking at unit builds I was thinking of the following. Vanguard are probably not worth the extra two points. It was a crap shoot at around the same but at a 2 point difference, not worth it IMO(unless running all skitarii)
Rangers cost 2 points more than Vanguard. Thus if you think they are equal you would be taking Vanguard, not rangers.
Onagers I was thinking 3 mans, 2 with neutron laser and 1 with lumen gun and cognis and defensive aura. He is there to fire first, hopefully reduce cover before the big guys open up. He also will help the assaulty elements i got get where they need to be.
Interesting idea. I was really trying to figure out why anyone would take anything but 2 Neutron and 1 Icarus, but the lumen gun might be helpful for the Neutrons.
Leth wrote: Looking at unit builds I was thinking of the following. Vanguard are probably not worth the extra two points. It was a crap shoot at around the same but at a 2 point difference, not worth it IMO(unless running all skitarii)
Rangers cost 2 points more than Vanguard. Thus if you think they are equal you would be taking Vanguard, not rangers.
Onagers I was thinking 3 mans, 2 with neutron laser and 1 with lumen gun and cognis and defensive aura. He is there to fire first, hopefully reduce cover before the big guys open up. He also will help the assaulty elements i got get where they need to be.
Interesting idea. I was really trying to figure out why anyone would take anything but 2 Neutron and 1 Icarus, but the lumen gun might be helpful for the Neutrons.
Yea, I meant Rangers are probably not worth taking. One of the issues i run into is that they seem designed to work well with the sniper rifle option, however the sniper rifle is just too many points...
Also the lumen gun can be the front of the triangle so it dies first, throw a cognis on it to avoid Weapon destroyed taking out the main gun and you are good to go.
I don't really understand the weapon mixing, seems like if you take Neutrons its going to be all or nothing if you want that 4+, because 10AP1 blast is an AT or Anti MC weapon. The Phos weapon and Icarus array don't really synergize well with the Neutron laser unless taken in separate squadrons IMO.
ultimentra wrote: I don't really understand the weapon mixing, seems like if you take Neutrons its going to be all or nothing if you want that 4+, because 10AP1 blast is an AT or Anti MC weapon. The Phos weapon and Icarus array don't really synergize well with the Neutron laser unless taken in separate squadrons IMO.
My thinking as well. I'd rather take a two-man squadron of Icarus Onagers, or 2x one-man (variable upon # of flyers I expect to face). Losing out on the weaponry of the other two seems mighty wasteful, even if they grant the third a 4++. Almost makes me want to take Ballistarius (Ballastiarii?) for AA duty as they're better shooting at the ground. Almost. Icarus Onagers are simply WAY more effective shooting up.
ultimentra wrote: I don't really understand the weapon mixing, seems like if you take Neutrons its going to be all or nothing if you want that 4+, because 10AP1 blast is an AT or Anti MC weapon. The Phos weapon and Icarus array don't really synergize well with the Neutron laser unless taken in separate squadrons IMO.
Squadron members do not have to all fire at the same target. So if you want to use the neutrons for AT you can use the Phos weapon for buff your AI elsewhere. If you want to neuter multiwounded heavy infantry, you can use the phos before the Neutrons.
ultimentra wrote: I don't really understand the weapon mixing, seems like if you take Neutrons its going to be all or nothing if you want that 4+, because 10AP1 blast is an AT or Anti MC weapon. The Phos weapon and Icarus array don't really synergize well with the Neutron laser unless taken in separate squadrons IMO.
Squadron members do not have to all fire at the same target. So if you want to use the neutrons for AT you can use the Phos weapon for buff your AI elsewhere. If you want to neuter multiwounded heavy infantry, you can use the phos before the Neutrons.
considering the rules specifically say that they do I think you might be wrong on that one.
Personally I was looking at it because I would like the ability to re-roll charges and that is a reliable way to get it.
Also because it will fire first, if I can put a hit on it then fire the other weapons they will be at -1 cover save. If something has a 2+ or 3+ cover save you just upped the odds of your other two shots putting the hurt on by a significant margin.
ultimentra wrote: I don't really understand the weapon mixing, seems like if you take Neutrons its going to be all or nothing if you want that 4+, because 10AP1 blast is an AT or Anti MC weapon. The Phos weapon and Icarus array don't really synergize well with the Neutron laser unless taken in separate squadrons IMO.
Squadron members do not have to all fire at the same target. So if you want to use the neutrons for AT you can use the Phos weapon for buff your AI elsewhere. If you want to neuter multiwounded heavy infantry, you can use the phos before the Neutrons.
considering the rules specifically say that they do I think you might be wrong on that one.
Personally I was looking at it because I would like the ability to re-roll charges and that is a reliable way to get it.
Also because it will fire first, if I can put a hit on it then fire the other weapons they will be at -1 cover save. If something has a 2+ or 3+ cover save you just upped the odds of your other two shots putting the hurt on by a significant margin.
did that change? I remember back in the day they didnt.
the_scotsman wrote: Good to see I have a new and exciting way to forge the narrative of Logan Grimnar's Discount Used Pod Emporium (come on down!)
Lulz.
The OP asked for competitive uses not stuff that makes sense fluff wise.
But who knows, maybe Logan is making a lot of money renting out his pods.
You could only use one pod. You can't say its a competitive list when you depend on unbound listing. Most tournaments don't allow unbound.
If you're going to be playing a friendly game why would you want to play a competitive list? Unless you're that guy.
WrentheFaceless wrote: Yea the fact the squad has to fire at the same target makes me kinda meh now about that.
Not quite; you can actually use the rules for the Icarus Array to fire it at a separate target; RAW you could conceivably say that the Icarus can pick entirely separate targets from the rest of the squadron. Remember, you can actually split fire with the Icarus against up to 3 different targets- an Interceptor shot with the Icarus AC, plus two others with the Daedalus and the GRL.
Poly Ranger wrote: 9 vanguard with 2 plasma cavaliers
Inquisitor with tome of vetheric and combi plasma
Pod
Bs7 on drop
= 9.7 wounds average against tyranid t6 3+ mcs. Nice against a fex brood.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That is after saves against the rad.
What's with 9 Vanguard+2 Calivers and the Inquisitor? It's probably more efficient to roll 10 Vanguard with triple Calivers, as the Inquisitor can't benefit from Doctrina Imperatives.
Leth wrote: Looking at unit builds I was thinking of the following. Vanguard are probably not worth the extra two points. It was a crap shoot at around the same but at a 2 point difference, not worth it IMO(unless running all skitarii)
Rangers cost 2 points more than Vanguard. Thus if you think they are equal you would be taking Vanguard, not rangers.
Onagers I was thinking 3 mans, 2 with neutron laser and 1 with lumen gun and cognis and defensive aura. He is there to fire first, hopefully reduce cover before the big guys open up. He also will help the assaulty elements i got get where they need to be.
Interesting idea. I was really trying to figure out why anyone would take anything but 2 Neutron and 1 Icarus, but the lumen gun might be helpful for the Neutrons.
Yea, I meant Rangers are probably not worth taking. One of the issues i run into is that they seem designed to work well with the sniper rifle option, however the sniper rifle is just too many points...
Also the lumen gun can be the front of the triangle so it dies first, throw a cognis on it to avoid Weapon destroyed taking out the main gun and you are good to go.
Rangers are great against infantry that shoot from cover/hold position out of range of most units because of their 30'' weapon reach. Things like Firewarriors, Guardsmen, mini-Immortals, Devastator archetypes, even Broadsides at a stretch with some blind luck and 2 units will take some fire they'd unappreciative of from them. When you need them to take objectives, they can get there quicker than Vanguards because of their MTC rule
Except that it requires that those types be out of cover to get the most benefits, which is not likely to happen. However if you are planning on walking across the table I think they are much better.
Like I said, in Skitarii only they have a place, nor do I think they are strictly worse. But I think the issue is that the vanguard are cheaper, are a better special weapon delivery platform, and when you want to go MSU builds that is what you want. In addition they have rules that help as you get closer.
WrentheFaceless wrote: Yea the fact the squad has to fire at the same target makes me kinda meh now about that.
Not quite; you can actually use the rules for the Icarus Array to fire it at a separate target; RAW you could conceivably say that the Icarus can pick entirely separate targets from the rest of the squadron. Remember, you can actually split fire with the Icarus against up to 3 different targets- an Interceptor shot with the Icarus AC, plus two others with the Daedalus and the GRL.
Yea was wondering that, it said even if you use the autocannon to intercept at target, you can fire the 2 other weapons at different targets. So it has a built in splitfire?
WrentheFaceless wrote: Yea the fact the squad has to fire at the same target makes me kinda meh now about that.
Not quite; you can actually use the rules for the Icarus Array to fire it at a separate target; RAW you could conceivably say that the Icarus can pick entirely separate targets from the rest of the squadron. Remember, you can actually split fire with the Icarus against up to 3 different targets- an Interceptor shot with the Icarus AC, plus two others with the Daedalus and the GRL.
Yea was wondering that, it said even if you use the autocannon to intercept at target, you can fire the 2 other weapons at different targets. So it has a built in splitfire?
No. You can fire it at one target using interceptor during the movement phase the deep striking unit comes in, and then during your shooting phase you don't have to continue firing at whatever you intercepted, that's all it's saying. No split fire anywhere in there.
the_scotsman wrote: Good to see I have a new and exciting way to forge the narrative of Logan Grimnar's Discount Used Pod Emporium (come on down!)
Lulz.
The OP asked for competitive uses not stuff that makes sense fluff wise.
But who knows, maybe Logan is making a lot of money renting out his pods.
You could only use one pod. You can't say its a competitive list when you depend on unbound listing. Most tournaments don't allow unbound.
If you're going to be playing a friendly game why would you want to play a competitive list? Unless you're that guy.
What in the heck are you talking about? Lol. Space Wolves have Drop Pods in the Fast Attack section. Space Wolves can take 3 Fast Attack choices in their normal detachment. Therefore, 3 pods can be taken that aren't dedicated transports. That can be filled with units from whatever non-SW force you are also taking. Like Skitarii for example.... It's bound. I'm new to 7th edition and even I know this.
WrentheFaceless wrote: Yea the fact the squad has to fire at the same target makes me kinda meh now about that.
Not quite; you can actually use the rules for the Icarus Array to fire it at a separate target; RAW you could conceivably say that the Icarus can pick entirely separate targets from the rest of the squadron. Remember, you can actually split fire with the Icarus against up to 3 different targets- an Interceptor shot with the Icarus AC, plus two others with the Daedalus and the GRL.
Poly Ranger wrote: 9 vanguard with 2 plasma cavaliers
Inquisitor with tome of vetheric and combi plasma
Pod
Bs7 on drop
= 9.7 wounds average against tyranid t6 3+ mcs. Nice against a fex brood.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That is after saves against the rad.
What's with 9 Vanguard+2 Calivers and the Inquisitor? It's probably more efficient to roll 10 Vanguard with triple Calivers, as the Inquisitor can't benefit from Doctrina Imperatives.
The tome of vetheric gives them monster hunter against nids though. That's why it is more effective.
Another good transport option for vanguard would be the adeptus astartes storm wing dataslate: a stormraven with strafing run accompanied by 2 stormtalons, no strings attached.
or the chimaera from your inquisitorial retinue (coteaz with plasma servitors in a bastion)
the_scotsman wrote: Good to see I have a new and exciting way to forge the narrative of Logan Grimnar's Discount Used Pod Emporium (come on down!)
Lulz.
The OP asked for competitive uses not stuff that makes sense fluff wise.
But who knows, maybe Logan is making a lot of money renting out his pods.
You could only use one pod. You can't say its a competitive list when you depend on unbound listing. Most tournaments don't allow unbound.
If you're going to be playing a friendly game why would you want to play a competitive list? Unless you're that guy.
What in the heck are you talking about? Lol. Space Wolves have Drop Pods in the Fast Attack section. Space Wolves can take 3 Fast Attack choices in their normal detachment. Therefore, 3 pods can be taken that aren't dedicated transports. That can be filled with units from whatever non-SW force you are also taking. Like Skitarii for example.... It's bound. I'm new to 7th edition and even I know this.
Blood Angels do it better...
Flesh Tearers detachment from exterminates gives up to 6 FA pods, with small price of (most likely) a scout squad and a Librarian
the_scotsman wrote: Good to see I have a new and exciting way to forge the narrative of Logan Grimnar's Discount Used Pod Emporium (come on down!)
Lulz.
The OP asked for competitive uses not stuff that makes sense fluff wise.
But who knows, maybe Logan is making a lot of money renting out his pods.
You could only use one pod. You can't say its a competitive list when you depend on unbound listing. Most tournaments don't allow unbound.
If you're going to be playing a friendly game why would you want to play a competitive list? Unless you're that guy.
What in the heck are you talking about? Lol. Space Wolves have Drop Pods in the Fast Attack section. Space Wolves can take 3 Fast Attack choices in their normal detachment. Therefore, 3 pods can be taken that aren't dedicated transports. That can be filled with units from whatever non-SW force you are also taking. Like Skitarii for example.... It's bound. I'm new to 7th edition and even I know this.
Blood Angels do it better...
Flesh Tearers detachment from exterminates gives up to 6 FA pods, with small price of (most likely) a scout squad and a Librarian
True enough, dont really need FNP for the skitarii units.
the_scotsman wrote: Good to see I have a new and exciting way to forge the narrative of Logan Grimnar's Discount Used Pod Emporium (come on down!)
Lulz.
The OP asked for competitive uses not stuff that makes sense fluff wise.
But who knows, maybe Logan is making a lot of money renting out his pods.
You could only use one pod. You can't say its a competitive list when you depend on unbound listing. Most tournaments don't allow unbound.
If you're going to be playing a friendly game why would you want to play a competitive list? Unless you're that guy.
What in the heck are you talking about? Lol. Space Wolves have Drop Pods in the Fast Attack section. Space Wolves can take 3 Fast Attack choices in their normal detachment. Therefore, 3 pods can be taken that aren't dedicated transports. That can be filled with units from whatever non-SW force you are also taking. Like Skitarii for example.... It's bound. I'm new to 7th edition and even I know this.
Blood Angels do it better...
Flesh Tearers detachment from exterminates gives up to 6 FA pods, with small price of (most likely) a scout squad and a Librarian
Yup. I wasn't familiar with the new Blood Angels codex at all until a day ago. So yeah, they give out even more pods. Not sure why Johnny thought only one pod was allowed.
Is anyone thinking that a full ten man squad with 3 plasma calivers is not the most points efficient option? Mostly because the calivers are so darn expensive. That's 190 points spent on 10 T3 models with a 4+ save.
At that point cost for a squad we are in marine territory. 10 marines and two plasma guns is cheaper. 10 SW with 2 plasmas and one combi plasma is also 190. Sure the "alpha strike" is reduced some, but the marines won't die from a stiff breeze the turn after they come down which mean they are much more likely to be of use in later turns.
If people are going with pods to deliver their skitarii it seems like a 5 man vanguard squad with 2 plasma calivers makes more sense. That's only 115 points for 6 plasma shots. No marines can do something like that at that price point...
Super Newb wrote: Is anyone thinking that a full ten man squad with 3 plasma calivers is not the most points efficient option? Mostly because the calivers are so darn expensive. That's 190 points spent on 10 T3 models with a 4+ save.
At that point cost for a squad we are in marine territory. 10 marines and two plasma guns is cheaper. 10 SW with 2 plasmas and one combi plasma is also 190. Sure the "alpha strike" is reduced some, but the marines won't die from a stiff breeze the turn after they come down which mean they are much more likely to be of use in later turns.
If people are going with pods to deliver their skitarii it seems like a 5 man vanguard squad with 2 plasma calivers makes more sense. That's only 115 points for 6 plasma shots. No marines can do something like that at that price point...
The firepower is totally different. 2 plasma calivers is = 3 plasmaguns, but with greater range. 3 calivers is more than 4 plasmaguns again with more range. Of course 2 calivers cost the same as 4 plasmaguns and 3 is 6 plasmaguns.
Think about CSM havocs or chosen. Units that can field 4-5 plasmaguns. Huge strike potential but also going to get gunned down immidiately. Comapritavely Vanguard are better off, with more abblative wounds and a few extra wounds from the rad guns.
That may be true super newb, but Space marines and Space wolves can't be BS7, 6, or 5 for a turn, and that combi-plasma is a one use weapon. Sure the Armor save is better, but we get more shots and they are more accurate for at least 3 turns. That's the tradeoff. Skitarii are a glass cannon army.
Super Newb wrote: Is anyone thinking that a full ten man squad with 3 plasma calivers is not the most points efficient option? Mostly because the calivers are so darn expensive. That's 190 points spent on 10 T3 models with a 4+ save.
At that point cost for a squad we are in marine territory. 10 marines and two plasma guns is cheaper. 10 SW with 2 plasmas and one combi plasma is also 190. Sure the "alpha strike" is reduced some, but the marines won't die from a stiff breeze the turn after they come down which mean they are much more likely to be of use in later turns.
If people are going with pods to deliver their skitarii it seems like a 5 man vanguard squad with 2 plasma calivers makes more sense. That's only 115 points for 6 plasma shots. No marines can do something like that at that price point...
The firepower is totally different. 2 plasma calivers is = 3 plasmaguns, but with greater range. 3 calivers is more than 4 plasmaguns again with more range. Of course 2 calivers cost the same as 4 plasmaguns and 3 is 6 plasmaguns.
Lol no, not totally different. They are S7 AP2 Gets Hot. The only real difference is the range. 18 inches. And yes they are 3 shot. But they also cost twice as much as a plasma gun.* My point is plasma calivers are very expensive. 10 Vanguard are 100 points. 3 Plasma Calivers are 90 points. Squad cost is almost doubled with them.
Obviously my marine example has less of an alpha strike, which I noted. But I also noted they'd hang around longer (or take more firepower to kill) - so that's the trade off. Just something to think about if people take these guys in a rent-a-pod list...
*Remember, they cost twice as much but they don't shoot twice as much as plasma guns at 0-12 inches and at 18.001-24 inches.
Super Newb wrote: Is anyone thinking that a full ten man squad with 3 plasma calivers is not the most points efficient option? Mostly because the calivers are so darn expensive. That's 190 points spent on 10 T3 models with a 4+ save.
At that point cost for a squad we are in marine territory. 10 marines and two plasma guns is cheaper. 10 SW with 2 plasmas and one combi plasma is also 190. Sure the "alpha strike" is reduced some, but the marines won't die from a stiff breeze the turn after they come down which mean they are much more likely to be of use in later turns.
If people are going with pods to deliver their skitarii it seems like a 5 man vanguard squad with 2 plasma calivers makes more sense. That's only 115 points for 6 plasma shots. No marines can do something like that at that price point...
The firepower is totally different. 2 plasma calivers is = 3 plasmaguns, but with greater range. 3 calivers is more than 4 plasmaguns again with more range. Of course 2 calivers cost the same as 4 plasmaguns and 3 is 6 plasmaguns.
Lol no, not totally different. They are S7 AP2 Gets Hot. The only real difference is the range. 18 inches. And yes they are 3 shot. But they also cost twice as much as a plasma gun. My point is plasma calivers are very expensive. 10 Vanguard are 100 points. 3 Plasma Calivers are 90 points. Squad cost is almost doubled with them.
Obviously my marine example has less of an alpha strike, which I noted. But I also noted they'd hang around longer (or take more firepower to kill) - so that's the trade off. Just something to think about if people take these guys in a rent-a-pod list...
yes but 5 havocs with 4 plasma is 135. 6 chosen with 5 plasma is 165. Much more similar to the Vanguard in terms of price to firepower. Of course those CSM have to drive up in a rhino to unload.
10 marines with 2 plasma offers MUCH less firepower but also much more surviablity. You are landing a tactical squad that might kill 2-3 models when it lands. This vs a 3 Caliver unit where your goal is to delete a unit.
Perhaps better to compare IG vets with plasmaguns. More similar than SM 10 man squads.
Super Newb wrote: Is anyone thinking that a full ten man squad with 3 plasma calivers is not the most points efficient option? Mostly because the calivers are so darn expensive. That's 190 points spent on 10 T3 models with a 4+ save.
At that point cost for a squad we are in marine territory. 10 marines and two plasma guns is cheaper. 10 SW with 2 plasmas and one combi plasma is also 190. Sure the "alpha strike" is reduced some, but the marines won't die from a stiff breeze the turn after they come down which mean they are much more likely to be of use in later turns.
If people are going with pods to deliver their skitarii it seems like a 5 man vanguard squad with 2 plasma calivers makes more sense. That's only 115 points for 6 plasma shots. No marines can do something like that at that price point...
The firepower is totally different. 2 plasma calivers is = 3 plasmaguns, but with greater range. 3 calivers is more than 4 plasmaguns again with more range. Of course 2 calivers cost the same as 4 plasmaguns and 3 is 6 plasmaguns.
Lol no, not totally different. They are S7 AP2 Gets Hot. The only real difference is the range. 18 inches. And yes they are 3 shot. But they also cost twice as much as a plasma gun.* My point is plasma calivers are very expensive. 10 Vanguard are 100 points. 3 Plasma Calivers are 90 points. Squad cost is almost doubled with them.
Obviously my marine example has less of an alpha strike, which I noted. But I also noted they'd hang around longer (or take more firepower to kill) - so that's the trade off. Just something to think about if people take these guys in a rent-a-pod list...
*Remember, they cost twice as much but they don't shoot twice as much as plasma guns at 0-12 inches and at 18.001-24 inches.
Calivers are going to be expensive no matter what, so distributing them around in a more piecemeal fashion isn't going to change much. Moreover, the sheer firepower of a Triple Caliver Vanguard squad is insane. Between Radium Carbines and the Calivers, you can drop most of a Carnifex Brood in a single turn. Or kill a Dreadknight in one go.
You can almost kill a Riptide in one round if it has FNP, but you're pretty much fethed if the Riptide manages to Nova its shield... but Riptides are damn near unkillable for everyone, so what else is new.
Also note that Vanguard can up-engage quite significantly- due to the special trait of the Radium Carbines, they can potentially put wounds onto a Wraithknight- something a GH squad would struggle with.
Exergy wrote: Perhaps better to compare IG vets with plasmaguns. More similar than SM 10 man squads.
You know what, you are right. I just don't know what anything costs in the IG codex lol.
Factoring the Doctrines in the "alpha strike-yness" of a full Plasma Caliver Vanguard Squad probably does make up for the points cost and lack of durability of the unit. Provided you can find something worth 225 points to shoot at! (squad, calivers and pod cost). Or drop down in a way so your plasma dudes don't get wiped off the board on turn 2...
Exergy wrote: Perhaps better to compare IG vets with plasmaguns. More similar than SM 10 man squads.
You know what, you are right. I just don't know what anything costs in the IG codex lol.
Factoring the Doctrines in the "alpha strike-yness" of a full Plasma Caliver Vanguard Squad probably does make up for the points cost and lack of durability of the unit. Provided you can find something worth 225 points to shoot at! (squad, calivers and pod cost). Or drop down in a way so your plasma dudes don't get wiped off the board on turn 2...
IG vets are 70 points, so 10 with 3 plasma guns is 115. About the same as your 2 caliver unit.
Maths of eight Ruststalkers charging things:
(because eight fit within a Land Raider Crusader)
Wraithknight Mindscrambler grenade almost certainly hits, 4+ wound, 3+ save, 0.167 wounds
No overwatch
Both swing simultaneously
Wraithknight swings 4 times and splats two Ruststalkers.
Rustalkers swing 33 times and 8 of those are Chordclaw Fleshbane attacks.
4 Fleshbane hits, nearly all Wound, and some may be AP2 so maybe 1.5 Wounds unsaved
12.5 Transonic Razor hits, average of two Furious Charge sixes which become AP2 so 3.5 Wounds total. A Doctrina that increases WS makes this roughly 4.0 wounds.
Note that adding The Omnicient Mask for 20 points brings the average Wounds closer to the six needed and prevents fleeing after failing Leadership 7. A great buy if your Ruststalkers will attack big targets like this. Or pair with an IC like a Chaplain.
Next round the Wraithknight splats two more. Ruststalkers can only hurt T8 with Chordclaws. 6 swings, three AP2 hits, enough to finish off the Wraithknight after losing half the squad, 125 points. The rest of the unit dies during your opponent's shooting phase.
Imperial Knight Haywire grenade probably removes a hull point. No overwatch. Everyone swings at I4.
Knight splats 1.5 Ruststalkers.
4 Haywire hits but Knight still has 1 remaining unless you shot it with something else right?
If it's still alive, the Knight's stomps remove several more Ruststalkers, but they kill it next round. Expect to lose 25% - 75% of the squad. Still a good trade if you lose them all. Again, rules like Zealot greatly increase your odds, as does even +1 WS Doctrina Imperative.
Six Canoptek Wraiths If the mindscrambler grenade gets three hits, it could cause half a wound on average, but don't count on it.
The Wraiths with Whip Coils swing first and probably Instant Death half of the Ruststalkers. welp nevermind.
The remaining Ruststalkers swing first 19 times. Half of the four Chordclaw attacks hit, yielding roughly half an unsaved wound. The remaining razor attacks may finish off a single Wraith unless they have those Reanimation Protocols.
This is a very bad matchup for the Ruststalkers. This is one matchup where the Infiltrators might have the advantage since they'd swing at the same time and could even make the Wraiths hit on 5+. Those flachette blasters would even add some wounds when charging.
harkequin wrote: You could probably add an inch or 2 by starting the raider perpendicular to the line, then pivoting before moving, so 24" average, 29 max.
That has been erata'd, distance moved is measured from the starting position hull edge.
That has been erata'd, distance moved is measured from the starting position hull edge
could you link me that? It's not in the most recent errata.
IIRC Pivots do not count toward movement totals for vehicles.
I know you're correct for things like bikes pivoting but not sure about vehicles.
I think it is even in the BRB; says something like "no part of the vehicle my be further from its starting point than it's movement allows".
So you are not allowed to pivot at the end to gain that inch since that would break that rule.
Nothing about it in the BRB or in the FAQ.
The closest relevant section is
Vehicles can turn any number of times as they move, just like any other model. Vehicles turn by pivoting on the spot about their centre-point, rather than wheeling round. Pivoting on the spot alone does not count as moving, so a vehicle that only pivots in the Movement phase counts as Stationary (however, Immobilised vehicles cannot even pivot on the spot). Pivoting is always done from the centre of a vehicle to prevent it from accidentally moving further than intended or allowed. Just like other units, vehicles cannot move over friendly models.
As long as you pivot around the centre you are fine, for a lnadraider it might result in your hull being 1" further before you move, whereas in a Ghost ark, it would be 2-3" further.
I think you may be thinking of the part for non vehicle models moving, no part of their base may end the move further than their move away, so it effectively stops bike bases and oval ones, from pivoting
Depends on the house :p . I wouldnt have an issue if it was one, but in case you're trying to get the most bang for your buck (eg.tourney scene) might be worth noting that it is possible.
I cannot find a way to counter the new Jetbikes and Wraithknight. The WK is now essentially immune to Chordclaws, so Transonic Swords are probably more useful against it.
I cannot find a way to counter the new Jetbikes and Wraithknight. The WK is now essentially immune to Chordclaws, so Transonic Swords are probably more useful against it.
Vanguards and Jezzail Dragoons out of AdMech. Fish for 6's. Doubly good on the Jezzail (reducing sniper to wounding on 6's doesn't matter, you wanted 6's anyway). Monster Hunter Calivers may also be good, but difficult to get.
I cannot find a way to counter the new Jetbikes and Wraithknight. The WK is now essentially immune to Chordclaws, so Transonic Swords are probably more useful against it.
Vanguards and Jezzail Dragoons out of AdMech. Fish for 6's. Doubly good on the Jezzail (reducing sniper to wounding on 6's doesn't matter, you wanted 6's anyway). Monster Hunter Calivers may also be good, but difficult to get.
In addition to what you said, the above math leaves out the doctrines.
If the Jetbikes are still as gak in assault as they used to be (which knowing GW, they probably got buffed there too) the dragoons are fast enough to catch up to them and charge if the Eldar player's hubris allows you to surprise them with the dunestrider mobility.
I cannot find a way to counter the new Jetbikes and Wraithknight. The WK is now essentially immune to Chordclaws, so Transonic Swords are probably more useful against it.
if they way it is written in the white dwarf is what ends up in the codex I dont think this is a Skitarii problem its a 40k problem. unlimited scatterlaser jetbikes for 27 points cannot be beat when backed up by long ranged StrD.
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ultimentra wrote: If the Jetbikes are still as gak in assault as they used to be (which knowing GW, they probably got buffed there too) the dragoons are fast enough to catch up to them and charge if the Eldar player's hubris allows you to surprise them with the dunestrider mobility.
Jetbikes are just too mobile. With 12" move 36" range followed by 2d6" assault move you will never get in range. Not on a AV11 walker.
harkequin wrote: Nothing about it in the BRB or in the FAQ.
The closest relevant section is
Vehicles can turn any number of times as they move, just like any other model. Vehicles turn by pivoting on the spot about their centre-point, rather than wheeling round. Pivoting on the spot alone does not count as moving, so a vehicle that only pivots in the Movement phase counts as Stationary (however, Immobilised vehicles cannot even pivot on the spot). Pivoting is always done from the centre of a vehicle to prevent it from accidentally moving further than intended or allowed. Just like other units, vehicles cannot move over friendly models.
You only get a free pivot if that's all you do in the movement phase. Otherwise you measure as normal the distance moved. Nothing in the text above gives you license to move additional free distance.
As I sit here waiting for the glue to dry on my giant crabs of doom with magnets!
And without getting into the potential new eldar, I've been daydreaming of the gunline army again with these crabs.
Thinking of going with something like:
2 units of 3x onagers with icarus
Deredeo pattern Dreadnought
Sciaran battle tank
Fire raptor gunship with 2 storm talons
*mandantory master of the forge
all in the same list. It's a literal truckton of firepower but of course leaves the list kind of light on other things. What should I fill the rest of the army out with for 1850?
And should I drop something or other in that madness?
I think I'd feel like an ork with all that dakka lolol
Onager. They jink? Have that coveEred.ered. if not you're throwing quote a few dIce. Through in three for a 4++ and don't forgot the eradication laser. Yes it'll pop but you should get at least one solid round of spring shooting in and completely decimate whatever you want.
Alternatively, as many radium weapons as you deem possible. P Either you'll force them to jink and hamstring their damage output or evaporate.
axisofentropy wrote: I don't think three walkers are as good as a single imperial knight. Run them in smaller units of one or two.
In my opinion, Onagers should be ran in 3's to maximize the invulnerable save...otherwise their usefulness takes a hit. Also, don't forget the doctrines and the fact that they boost the leadership of nearby Skitarii (though only at 6 inches which may not come up often). Knights do have some impressive killing power, but Onagers shouldn't be discounted entirely. Plus, they are cool and my list already has a knight. If I took multiple knights my friends would be none too appreciative.
Verviedi wrote: The WK is now essentially immune to Chordclaws...
I thought Chordclaws gave you Fleshbane and Unstoppable doesn't do anything against Fleshbane?
Rad carbines should work too. Rad poisoning always wounds on a six and causes extra wounds, right?
You're right. Fleshbane still works against GMC's , it's amazing. My Tyranids player hates my Talos's because of how they tear apart his Heirodule better than the Heirodule hurts it.
axisofentropy wrote: I don't think three walkers are as good as a single imperial knight. Run them in smaller units of one or two.
In my opinion, Onagers should be ran in 3's to maximize the invulnerable save...otherwise their usefulness takes a hit. Also, don't forget the doctrines and the fact that they boost the leadership of nearby Skitarii (though only at 6 inches which may not come up often). Knights do have some impressive killing power, but Onagers shouldn't be discounted entirely. Plus, they are cool and my list already has a knight. If I took multiple knights my friends would be none too appreciative.
Then they all have to shoot at the same target, and penetrating hits can roll through the squad. And their huge bases will have a hard time staying both in coherency and in line of sight.
You should try it tho, we're all just speculating.
axisofentropy wrote: I don't think three walkers are as good as a single imperial knight. Run them in smaller units of one or two.
In my opinion, Onagers should be ran in 3's to maximize the invulnerable save...otherwise their usefulness takes a hit. Also, don't forget the doctrines and the fact that they boost the leadership of nearby Skitarii (though only at 6 inches which may not come up often). Knights do have some impressive killing power, but Onagers shouldn't be discounted entirely. Plus, they are cool and my list already has a knight. If I took multiple knights my friends would be none too appreciative.
Then they all have to shoot at the same target, and penetrating hits can roll through the squad. And their huge bases will have a hard time staying both in coherency and in line of sight.
You should try it tho, we're all just speculating.
They can also increase their survivability by rotating members, take advantage of their large foot print. With 4 inch coherency I have never seen squadrons have a hard time maintaining coherency. In a larger group you are nearly doubling/tripling how long they will live. Sure penetrating shots will go through the squad, luckily you are cutting the number of shots by a 1/3
axisofentropy wrote: I don't think three walkers are as good as a single imperial knight. Run them in smaller units of one or two.
In my opinion, Onagers should be ran in 3's to maximize the invulnerable save...otherwise their usefulness takes a hit. Also, don't forget the doctrines and the fact that they boost the leadership of nearby Skitarii (though only at 6 inches which may not come up often). Knights do have some impressive killing power, but Onagers shouldn't be discounted entirely. Plus, they are cool and my list already has a knight. If I took multiple knights my friends would be none too appreciative.
Then they all have to shoot at the same target, and penetrating hits can roll through the squad. And their huge bases will have a hard time staying both in coherency and in line of sight.
You should try it tho, we're all just speculating.
They can also increase their survivability by rotating members, take advantage of their large foot print. With 4 inch coherency I have never seen squadrons have a hard time maintaining coherency. In a larger group you are nearly doubling/tripling how long they will live. Sure penetrating shots will go through the squad, luckily you are cutting the number of shots by a 1/3
The only problem like this is the inherent problem with squadding vehicles. To quote my opponent, the reason he runs all of his Piranhas as seperate units is so a high-ROFAV weapon, instead of killing multiple vehicles, does massive overkill to one due to only targetting one vehicle.
Now, the Onagers, they seem durable enough to squad in 3s.
axisofentropy wrote: I don't think three walkers are as good as a single imperial knight. Run them in smaller units of one or two.
In my opinion, Onagers should be ran in 3's to maximize the invulnerable save...otherwise their usefulness takes a hit. Also, don't forget the doctrines and the fact that they boost the leadership of nearby Skitarii (though only at 6 inches which may not come up often). Knights do have some impressive killing power, but Onagers shouldn't be discounted entirely. Plus, they are cool and my list already has a knight. If I took multiple knights my friends would be none too appreciative.
Then they all have to shoot at the same target, and penetrating hits can roll through the squad. And their huge bases will have a hard time staying both in coherency and in line of sight.
You should try it tho, we're all just speculating.
They can also increase their survivability by rotating members, take advantage of their large foot print. With 4 inch coherency I have never seen squadrons have a hard time maintaining coherency. In a larger group you are nearly doubling/tripling how long they will live. Sure penetrating shots will go through the squad, luckily you are cutting the number of shots by a 1/3
Onagers are tough but i've squaded lleman russes and had them run through as well. As you said its simply an inherent danger and with the amount of scatter laser shots that one may be facing soon it's definitely worth taking into account.
It's important also to consider assaults. Now obviously you never want most vehicles in assault but it is something that happens. An assault squad geared for vehicles can rip through a squad like a tin can. Its not something you want to happen and you can do a lot to prevent it but it happens and when it does, the question is are you ready to see a 500 pt. unit go up in smoke in one assault phase? Cause when it happens it sucks. It's only happened to me twice but it was enough to make me seriously question using them in the future. Use with caution.
The difference is that unlike most other squadrons the onager increases in survivability as there are more of them. Without Ap1/2 I am not as worried about spill over to the rest of the squad. Harder to kill in assault as well, and can lock a unit down in a pinch.
Also with the amount of assault available to the skitarii it should not happen
Edit: Getting two out of three crabs tomorrow, so excited. Have the 20 troopers that I would ever use. Just got to find some alternate weapons for the special ones......
Here is the skitarii detachment I am thinking of running, however with the release of the bikes I am seriously considering switching to plasma calivers. Since I will be podding mine in, the cost is not as big of a deal and they should kill enough to make their points back.
2x 5 vanguard with arc rifle, arc pistol, and omnispex(pods)
Brings some serious anti tank/elite infantry to my list. Also once again thinking about bikes the phosphor blaster is going to be money. Should be able to get one wound through (while also making them jink) and then everything else just lights them up(see previously mentioned calivers). Also there is something nice about a guaranteed 6 inch move, no dangerous, no difficult terrain tests, just move 6.
I welcome someone to charge an Onager Squadron. They can enjoy trying to brute force through 9 HP @ AV12 with WS3 and a 4++. If you've taken Cognis Manipulators, crunch a few enemy units along the way.
Onagers are a world apart from Russ Squadrons - with a WS to speak of, the ability to fight back (albeit not too effectively) and a saving throw.
Poly Ranger wrote: 9 vanguard with 2 plasma cavaliers
Inquisitor with tome of vetheric and combi plasma
Pod
Bs7 on drop
= 9.7 wounds average against tyranid t6 3+ mcs. Nice against a fex brood.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That is after saves against the rad.
the problem with this is you have to use your docturna imperatives at the beginning of the movement phase, before deep strike. They will not be on the board at the time, and will not benefit from them.
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sudojoe wrote: As I sit here waiting for the glue to dry on my giant crabs of doom with magnets!
And without getting into the potential new eldar, I've been daydreaming of the gunline army again with these crabs.
Thinking of going with something like:
2 units of 3x onagers with icarus
Deredeo pattern Dreadnought
Sciaran battle tank
Fire raptor gunship with 2 storm talons
*mandantory master of the forge
all in the same list. It's a literal truckton of firepower but of course leaves the list kind of light on other things. What should I fill the rest of the army out with for 1850?
And should I drop something or other in that madness?
I think I'd feel like an ork with all that dakka lolol
I think master of the forge only allows one relic no? Can you take a fire raptor, sciaran, and a dreedeo?
Except doctrines just say units in your army with this rule, it has nothing to do with when they arrive or even if they are on the table, it is just a flat modifier until the start of your next turn
Yeah, it says, Eg. "all units in your army with the Doctrina imperatives special rule, add +1 to their balistic skill until the start of your next turn."
So it will apply to anyone of them. They deep strike on, and whatever their BS is, they add 1 to it.
2x 5 vanguard with arc rifle, arc pistol, and omnispex(pods)
Nice. I like that you have the specials in order of importance too. If a person only has points for the pistol or the omni the pistol beats the omnispex in a pod list. An extra haywire shot is better than the cover modifier, if you had to pick one.
harkequin wrote: Yeah, it says, Eg. "all units in your army with the Doctrina imperatives special rule, add +1 to their balistic skill until the start of your next turn."
So it will apply to anyone of them. They deep strike on, and whatever their BS is, they add 1 to it.
even if they are in reserve, they should still be in your army.
2x 5 vanguard with arc rifle, arc pistol, and omnispex(pods)
Nice. I like that you have the specials in order of importance too. If a person only has points for the pistol or the omni the pistol beats the omnispex in a pod list. An extra haywire shot is better than the cover modifier, if you had to pick one.
Honestly I would take the omnispex before I would take the pistol. The main reason is that statistically IF they are getting a cover save the omnispex is better all around against all targets. In addition the better their cover save the more impact it has.
Someone has a 2+ cover, it now goes to a 3+ cover. That is DOUBLING the amount of damage that gets through. 3+ to 4+ 50% increase in number of wounds taken. So on and so forth. Its only at the worse cover saves where it becomes not worth it. a 5 to a 6 is only a 20% increase in wounds caused, same with haywire hits. Now as a per unit upgrade the omnispex gets better the more models you have, however with the high volume of fire from the skitarii guns unless you are on foot(in which case I would be 10 mans and take it anyway) you are gonna need the extra bodies.
While the extra shoot is nice and really will help get that third hull point, dont forget you still have the str 6 hit in addition to the haywire hit. Dont discount or forget that. I am seriously considering adding a few guys to each unit for the extra bodies, have to see if they are dying or not since I will have thunderwolves running up the gut.
Wait what? Going from four shots to five is a 25% increase in firepower. I'd take that before a cover save modifier. If the vehicle has no cover, a 6+ cover, a 5+ cover, that extra shot beats out the omnispex.
Shouldn't we go with what is the most common? That being no cover or limited cover saves.
You're right that most vehicles won't be in cover, so a haywire squad may not benefit so much from an omnispex unless they're shooting at jinkers (e.g. wave serpents)
A plasma squad on the other hand will often shoot at elite infantry to take advantage of AP2, so an omnispex seems mandatory there.
Super Newb wrote: Wait what? Going from four shots to five is a 25% increase in firepower. I'd take that before a cover save modifier. If the vehicle has no cover, a 6+ cover, a 5+ cover, that extra shot beats out the omnispex.
Shouldn't we go with what is the most common? That being no cover or limited cover saves.
Its not a 25% increase in fire power, it is a % increase in amount of damage going through.
Lets say you fire 4 haywire shots, all 4 hit and cause a glance.
With a 2+ cover save 2/3 of a shot will get through
With a 3+ cover save 4/3 shots will get through
With a 4+ cover save 6/3 shots will get through
with a 5+ cover save 8/3 shots get through
with a 6+ Cover save 10/3 shots will get through.
So while the change between amounts getting through is consistent, the actual IMPACT of changing the saves is what changes. By reducing a 2+ to a 3+ you are causing twice as many wounds as you were before.
So most of us see the Synergy between taking a unit of Infiltrators and Rust Stalkers, but if points or models only allowed for taking a unit of one or the other, which one's do you take? I can see the argument for Rust stalkers because you get more haywire stuff, but I can also see the argument for Infiltrators due to the debuff. Thoughts on taking one or the other? Or is it one of each or nothing?
ultimentra wrote: So most of us see the Synergy between taking a unit of Infiltrators and Rust Stalkers, but if points or models only allowed for taking a unit of one or the other, which one's do you take? I can see the argument for Rust stalkers because you get more haywire stuff, but I can also see the argument for Infiltrators due to the debuff. Thoughts on taking one or the other? Or is it one of each or nothing?
Infiltrators. Better shooting weapon, better against Rear AV10 vehicles, still decent in combat, debuff aura.
If I just had one unit of Sicarians, though (as I do in this list), I'd be worried about dumping a single squad of Infiltrators in the enemy backfield unsupported. A single squad of Ruststalkers can hang out behind your main line of Skitarii or next to your Onagers as a counter-charge unit.
With some of the confirmations from eldar lluminogen got more important IMO.
We need stuff to be killed when we shoot, not to be able to jink and live to fight another day. By lowering cover saves it makes the shots count or forces them to stay in cover.
We need stuff to be killed when we shoot, not to be able to jink and live to fight another day. By lowering cover saves it makes the shots count or forces them to stay in cover.
True but we were talking about arc pistol versus omnispex if points are tight and you could only pick one. Let's see some math. Real math, not the only slightly helpful stuff you wrote a few posts back. 4 shots with -1 to cover save versus 5 shots with no cover modifier. Let's see that with no cover, 6+ cover, 5+ cover and then we can talk some more.
With a 3+ cover save 4/3 shots will get through
With a 4+ cover save 6/3 shots will get through
with a 5+ cover save 8/3 shots get through
with a 6+ Cover save 10/3 shots will get through.
With No save 12/3 shots will get through
Lets say you fire 5 haywire shots, all 5 hit and cause a glance.
With a 2+ cover save 5/6 of a shot will get through vrs 4/3
With a 3+ cover save 5/3 shots will get through vrs 6/3
With a 4+ cover save 5/2 shots will get through vrs 8/3
with a 5+ cover save 10/3 shots get through vrs 10/3
with a 6+ Cover save 25/6 shots will get through. vrs 12/3
So at a 5+ base cover save they become even, however at lower cover saves the 4 shots -cover wins out
I think the dragoons are probably a good option. Problem with taking the illuminogen weapons is that you can take those cover saves and jink saves against them, and even then you have to WOUND.
Can't take cover from Tau markerlights though, bsIMO. The points invested to take enough luminogen will take up points that could be units.
My strategy- decline games against Eldar. Hide all Eldar threads, do not reply to Eldar posts, etc. etc. however the hell that meme goes.
It honestly depends on the list, and what ally (if any) are being used.
If I'm taking SW or BA, I'd grab Infiltrators to debuff units for my melee deathstars to pummel. If I'm allying with a Shooty army, I'd take ruststalkers to add a melee element.
So I have purchased quite a lot of Skitarii miniatures recently and in my gaming circle there is a great variety of armies to face with no real WAAC or TFG gamers... so my question is with 2 Onagers and 4 Ironstriders what is best for all comers?
Onagers I am thinking 1 Neutron Laser and 1 Icarus Array, but do the other 2 options perhaps have a place?
And as for the Ironstriders do I just go all out Dragoons as the Ballistarii does seem like a far weaker (and more expensive) choice. Anti armour seems far more suited to the Onager and troops rather than the limited Cognis weapons that the Ballistarii can bring to bear.
I wouldn't dismiss Ballistarii: 55 points for twin-linked Autocannon that Snap Shot at BS:2 is a fair number of rounds on target, even against fliers. The Icarus Array is awesome but arguably overkill unless your opponent brings a lot of fliers or is Eldar (because Skimmers). And remember that Onagers want to be in squadrons to maximize their force field saves, and a squadron must all fire at the same target, so you probably want all your Onagers to have the same gun.
Very fair points there. I may well go 2 Balistarii and 2 Dragoons, but for the extra 20 points are Lascannons a step too far?
Good point on the Onagers too, so maybe the vanilla Eradication Beamer does have a place but that is dependent upon whether you want to sit back with them or not. Thanks for the advice, I look forward to seeing more general tactics pop up on this thread.
I disagree the Icarus is overkill. A single storm raven largely won't care about it for starters. 3 on the other hand will give it pause. AV 10 or 11 yes, it's a solid weapon array alone as well as against T5. T6 or AV12+? You need 2 or 3 to make a serious dent
Picked up my first squad of Skitarii today.
Allied them with my Tau and played a game against GK. My Ranger squad's Arquebus got a kill a turn, and my Vanguard took 2 hull points off a Land Raider before being AssCanned.
Overkill in the sense that it's 125 points that can only shoot fliers and skimmers. Depends on your meta, but I'd rather spend the points on a larger number of weapons that can hit ground targets and take snapshots (especially BS:2 Cognis snapshots) at fliers as needed.
I played a proxy game recently against a local ultra-marine player, and it went kinda pearshaped for me. The slowness of skitarii really hurts for footslogging units, and a single ironclad dread was the worst unit to fight against. Dropped down and roasted my warlord squad!
Tiger9gamer wrote: I played a proxy game recently against a local ultra-marine player, and it went kinda pearshaped for me. The slowness of skitarii really hurts for footslogging units, and a single ironclad dread was the worst unit to fight against. Dropped down and roasted my warlord squad!
I do think that skitarii need some transports.
You do know Infiltrators, Ruststalkers, Dragoons, Balistarii and Onagers add 3" to their move, run and charge, right?
The only unit that suffers from being slow are vanguards.
I didn't know onagers did, but from what I played I used mostly 3 squads of vanguard. They shot a lot but still got wrecked by heavy flamers and a storm talon.
Verviedi wrote: Picked up my first squad of Skitarii today.
Allied them with my Tau and played a game against GK. My Ranger squad's Arquebus got a kill a turn, and my Vanguard took 2 hull points off a Land Raider before being AssCanned.
How many Arquebus's and were the precision kills?
I would expect 3 of them to kill a meq a turn, but that isnt terribly point efficient and if you dont get to pick the model removed it's very lackluster.
Also, even if you could extend it to non-squadron members, it would cap at 3++ with 4 members; remember, they start at 6++, and gain +1 per member, for a total of 4++ in a squadron.
