Soldiers of the Imperium hear me!

So, I am wondering about the general consensus about the health of the Imperial Guard these days - it appears to me the overall health and viability of the Guard is, well, rather low. I'm drawing this conclusion from how most, if not all of the Imperial Guard's niches/specialties have been severely out-done by other codexes, coupled with cripplingly bad internal balance in the 'dex.

A few observations:

Footguard. Dead as a doornail. Increase in anti-infantry firepower through 6th and 7th edition means that even blob squads don't last long. Ignore cover AP5, templates and other super-high volume of fire is so commonplace as to make guardsmen on foot free kills for the opponent. Necrons do a similar playstyle much better with super-high durability which is easily buffed to obscene levels. Skitarii look to offer an Imperial alternative in much the same way, being less durable but much more mobile and with higher firepower.

This has been my preferred playstyle for some time, and it really is just an exercise of removing models.

Mechguard. Traditional powerhouse of the Guard, still most powerful option but acutely out-done by other codexes. Eldar mech is faster, more durable with more reliable, longer-range shooting. Tau are also much more mobile with comparable firepower-per-point (if Devilfish were cheaper, it wouldn't be much of a competition). Chimera suffer from strong rules bias towards skimmers. Still viable against certain armies, but only Marines offer an arguably worse mechanized build in terms of mobility, durability and firepower, aside from those few armies where it is actually impossible.

Armoured. A good gunline, but in an edition where gunlines aren't quite as good as in the past, with a crippling weakness to melee, high mobility armies and Necrons. Leman Russes are cheap AV14 firepower platforms with good guns, but again, the skimmer bias is strong, and the lack of good infantry support means anything which can close will kill a gunline of tanks, and the 6'' max movement means mobility is virtually nil.

No other army has access to as much AV14 as Guard, and could be considered the one real unique capacity, but will lose to objectives quite often, and to a proper competitive build almost every time.

Aircav. the "TFG" tactic of 6th. Guard still has good access to fliers, but as most armies have AA options these days, and with the Vendetta nerfed as a transport leaves the Valkyrie as the only viable transport option. The relative increase in anti-infantry firepower also means veterans when dropped are less likely to accomplish anything of note, and their airborne fire support is greatly reduced against hard targets and other fliers. Still, however, the most viable build for Guard these days, and by far the most mobile, but has a lot of weaknesses which armies are much more capable of defeating than during its heydey in the early stages of 6th.

Aside from the main "builds" being less effective across the board, some have been completely removed or remain non-viable due to horrid internal balance. Stormtroopers, Ogryns/Bullgryns, all the SC's getting axed/nerfed, Ratlings (I actually liked them in 5th, but the heavy sniper nerfs? not anymore), Taurox, Hydra, Platoons, Commissar Lords, Commisars vs Priests. The book's a mess, awash with useless units and only a handful of decent ones; Pask Punisher, Vets in transports, non-ordnance Russes, Wyverns and...well that's kind of it.

What I would like to hear is what people have found to "work" with the Imperial Guard these days? With so few buffs, plenty of nerfs and no formation love from GW, the Guard barely function in a friendly environment anymore, nevermind against more competitive players. Almost everything they can do is done better by someone else, leaving only semi-effective, but exceptionally boring gunlines with will be out-gunlined by most other armies.

The combo of exceptionally bad fluff-builds, and only one, maybe two viable strong builds with huge weaknesses just makes it exceptionally disheartening to play the Imperial Guard these days, and considering the complete vanishing of Guard armies locally, I know I'm not alone.

I think the book was a real dud. The main problem being it failed to fix any of the crappy units and actively made several of them worse for no reason. And as you mentioned some of the direct comparison units make so little sense. That is the hallmark of bad design. A lot of our stuff is a tad over priced still and our mobility was hamstrung.


I kind of think the intention was to nerf IG to go with the Battle Brother ally advantage. Too many people were using them to turn blobs into monsters with powerfield generators and divination. The idea being imperial armies should be taking allies. It is lame if you want to go IG pure, but there are a lot of great combos.

The plus side is Wyverns, Tank Commanders, and orders are pretty neat. Also Yarrick is pretty boss.

Truthfully though, what worked before still kind of works. There is still a lot of ways to go, but the hybrid mech gun line that does the job. A strong line with artillery and heavy weapons in platoons supporting a tank and mech advance still gets work done. Casualties are high, but it can still be pretty vicious. Air Cav is still pretty good as well.

I actually stopped playing IG after the new dex came out. The new book killed every build that I thought was fun, and I had been playing IG for about 6 or 7 years...

I have heard people are not happy with the guard codex but honestly have not experienced this myself. I have had a ton of success playing a mix of tanks and infantry. AV 14 tanks with camo nets behind an ageis gives a 3 plus cover save. Las canon teams with ignore cover orders and throw in a couple wyverns. I honestly feel that this dex has been good to me.

My one friend still plays blob guard with quite a bit of success. He has the highest win ratio out of our group.

My other friend plays mechguard and loses quite severely to most our lists.

I still think Guard is in a good place, I don't think they are OP or UP as a whole, and really depends on how you build each list and the tactics you use.

I use a Footguard variant which is more of an Imperial Guard Fortress Defence Force.

Void Shields and base 4+ cover save for anyone on the battlements is super-nice. If you garrison vets, you can buff that cover save to 3+ with 'Forward Sentries'. I switch between garrisoning Veterans or Heavy-Weapon-Teams depending on what the mission is. Also, yes there's a lot of ignore cover and that's why I take the 'Grenadier' doctrine for my vets too, 4+ armour helps against that AP5 Ignore Cover weaponry and also helps to negate the odd Plasma wound as well. Then again, all guardsmen are expendable... it doesn't matter if they get slaughtered as long as they take a few enemies with them and buy time for the Fortress weapons and artillery, etc. to smash the rest.

The only vehicles I have are artillery and they hide behind the Fortress out of line-of-sight for increased protection. I also have three tarantula sentry guns because they're fluffy, quite tough and actually good at what they do.

Rough Riders are much maligned because people try to use them as dedicated close-quarters-combat squads or counter-assault squads and really I see that as a last ditch option. I use my Rough Riders like Dragoons really; mobile infantry squads but equipped with flamers to bring templates to where they're needed most. Of course in a pinch, I can throw them in the way of an assault unit to act as a speed-bump.

Against most armies, this has around a 50/50 chance of pulling through, it's not really competitive but it can give them a run for their money. The armies I struggle with most are ones that stay at range and grind me down or ones that drop-pod spam. Drop-pod spam ones are fun though because it's fast, brutal and exceedingly awesome.

 Otto Weston wrote:
I use a Footguard variant which is more of an Imperial Guard Fortress Defence Force.

Void Shields and base 4+ cover save for anyone on the battlements is super-nice. If you garrison vets, you can buff that cover save to 3+ with 'Forward Sentries'. I switch between garrisoning Veterans or Heavy-Weapon-Teams depending on what the mission is. Also, yes there's a lot of ignore cover and that's why I take the 'Grenadier' doctrine for my vets too, 4+ armour helps against that AP5 Ignore Cover weaponry and also helps to negate the odd Plasma wound as well. Then again, all guardsmen are expendable... it doesn't matter if they get slaughtered as long as they take a few enemies with them and buy time for the Fortress weapons and artillery, etc. to smash the rest.

The only vehicles I have are artillery and they hide behind the Fortress out of line-of-sight for increased protection. I also have three tarantula sentry guns because they're fluffy, quite tough and actually good at what they do.

Rough Riders are much maligned because people try to use them as dedicated close-quarters-combat squads or counter-assault squads and really I see that as a last ditch option. I use my Rough Riders like Dragoons really; mobile infantry squads but equipped with flamers to bring templates to where they're needed most. Of course in a pinch, I can throw them in the way of an assault unit to act as a speed-bump.

Against most armies, this has around a 50/50 chance of pulling through, it's not really competitive but it can give them a run for their money. The armies I struggle with most are ones that stay at range and grind me down or ones that drop-pod spam. Drop-pod spam ones are fun though because it's fast, brutal and exceedingly awesome.

That's kind of the crux though? You can make a gunline with Guard, and its certainly the most viable way to go, but the problem is so many other armies gunline better. Tau, Eldar, Orks, even Marines have some excellent gunline options which can challenge Guard, if not beat them with contemptous ease (Tau mostly on that front). The problem really is as Guard we don't have any alternative which works well. Against specific matchups you have more options; blob guard can fight melee focused armies, for instance, but broadly speaking the codex is extremely monobuild, and said monobuild isn't even especially good.

Yes, guard are weak compared to most of the other codeces . Not much we can do but wait it out But hey, if we were all THAT worried about winning, we wouldnt have chosen guard to begin with right?

A good player can still put up a decent show against most players andeven get a few wins. The only time we really get outclasses is when we go up against someone using one of the new power codices that maxes out the super spam lists.

 EVIL INC wrote:
Yes, guard are weak compared to most of the other codeces . Not much we can do but wait it out But hey, if we were all THAT worried about winning, we wouldnt have chosen guard to begin with right?

A good player can still put up a decent show against most players andeven get a few wins. The only time we really get outclasses is when we go up against someone using one of the new power codices that maxes out the super spam lists.

Aye, and remembering that particular, shall we say doctrine, keeps me playing my Guard, but certainly doesn't encourage me to spend much money on them.

The one really good thing which I do love about the Imperial Guard is our ability to fight Eldar.Still won't win very often, as Eldar super-mobility will trump on objectives, but boy can an Imperial Guard army hammer even the power Eldar lists. We'll make the pointy-eared bastards bleed if nothing else.

I guess that's kind of the thing to hold on to; Guard are kind of in a weird spot where they've become quite weak, but are difficult to simply sweep from the table. Being tabled is certainly possible, even probably against many armies, but you'll never be tabled without hurting the other guy first.

Can't say the same about my Marines versus Eldar or Tau.

Very true. Lucky for me, my guard are built up enough that i dont really need to buy anything else for themI only pick up super deals or something on rare ocasions (other month I got a russ, 2 chimeras and a hellhound with all optionsfor $80)
Now I only pick up stuff that catches my eye in terms of what I can ally with them or use to ally my guard with. Thats a spot where the guard excel I think Allies. They go very well with just about anyone in terms of teamwork.

 EVIL INC wrote:
Very true. Lucky for me, my guard are built up enough that i dont really need to buy anything else for themI only pick up super deals or something on rare ocasions (other month I got a russ, 2 chimeras and a hellhound with all optionsfor $80)
Now I only pick up stuff that catches my eye in terms of what I can ally with them or use to ally my guard with. Thats a spot where the guard excel I think Allies. They go very well with just about anyone in terms of teamwork.

Unfortunately, "Deals" aren't something often used in the same sentence with the Death Korps of Krieg.

Allies do help fill gaps in the IG's capacities; the Skitarii in particular look like a good match for anyone trying to run footguard, providing the firepower guardsmen utterly lack while the men can provide a good ablative, and as much as I dislike them, Knights add considerable capacity to a Guard army and for some insane reason don't attract half as much ire as "conventional" superheavies. The problem is I'm committed quite strongly to particular themes, so the ally solution is not something I am as ready to jump on outside of Apocalypse and big games, which remains an arena where Guard is still very potent by virtue of mountains of tanks and excellent superheavies.

I'm sorry but I am with the GW legal department and I demand everyone in this thread use the proper copyrighted nomenclature for this army: Astroboy Militeruriopyrightgamesworkshopltd and militurdium testosteroni.

the_scotsman wrote:
I'm sorry but I am with the GW legal department and I demand everyone in this thread use the proper copyrighted nomenclature for this army: Astroboy Militeruriopyrightgamesworkshopltd and militurdium testosteroni.

The name changes are just a slap on the face which make me scowl slightly every time I pick up my codex.

Thankfully such thing is not present in Imperial Armour 12, where most of my rules are.

GW can tell me whatever they damned well please, the Imperial Guard is the Imperial Guard. Apparently, even FW fell for that crap in the Vraks re-write, which is one more reason why I won't buy it. Screw with the rules, I shall endure, screw with the setting in the most asinine ways imaginable, and that very strongly threatens my desire to remain invested.

Guard shine with IA content. The powerhouse builds in this day and age seem to be Krieger.

 MajorStoffer wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I'm sorry but I am with the GW legal department and I demand everyone in this thread use the proper copyrighted nomenclature for this army: Astroboy Militeruriopyrightgamesworkshopltd and militurdium testosteroni.

The name changes are just a slap on the face which make me scowl slightly every time I pick up my codex.

Thankfully such thing is not present in Imperial Armour 12, where most of my rules are.

GW can tell me whatever they damned well please, the Imperial Guard is the Imperial Guard. Apparently, even FW fell for that crap in the Vraks re-write, which is one more reason why I won't buy it. Screw with the rules, I shall endure, screw with the setting in the most asinine ways imaginable, and that very strongly threatens my desire to remain invested.

I'd have been okay (I still probably wouldn't have used the new name, but I'd have been okay) with the name change IF the damned Space Marine codex had been named, "Adeptus Astartes"...... that way there'd be some continuity but they aren't so I'm not. It's the Guard son!

 Otto Weston wrote:

 MajorStoffer wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I'm sorry but I am with the GW legal department and I demand everyone in this thread use the proper copyrighted nomenclature for this army: Astroboy Militeruriopyrightgamesworkshopltd and militurdium testosteroni.

The name changes are just a slap on the face which make me scowl slightly every time I pick up my codex.

Thankfully such thing is not present in Imperial Armour 12, where most of my rules are.

GW can tell me whatever they damned well please, the Imperial Guard is the Imperial Guard. Apparently, even FW fell for that crap in the Vraks re-write, which is one more reason why I won't buy it. Screw with the rules, I shall endure, screw with the setting in the most asinine ways imaginable, and that very strongly threatens my desire to remain invested.

I'd have been okay (I still probably wouldn't have used the new name, but I'd have been okay) with the name change IF the damned Space Marine codex had been named, "Adeptus Astartes"...... that way there'd be some continuity but they aren't so I'm not. It's the Guard son!

And the Marines have always been, officially, in-universe, "Adeptus Astartes," it's established in the universe, has been for decades. The Imperial Guard has always, and alwyas will be The Imperial Guard, Hammer of the Emperor.

Their fancy pseudo-latin "title" isn't even for them, but for their bureaucratic masters; the Departmento Munitorum. But no, they had to invent another title for them on the spot, and not stop there, but rename the Storm Troopers to something even worse and confusing in-universe (there being a Segmentum Tempestus; "Sector of Storms," long since established), and not just rename the organization, but the standard troops to Scions and sgts to Tempestors? Seriously? And still not feeling content, they renamed the Commissariat into the Officio Praefectus, and wrote what is basically bad torture porn based on Harry Potter for background for the Commissariat and Storm troopers.

Their whole handling of the Guard has been atrocious on so many levels, were it not for Forgeworld I would have shelved the army.

I never understood the appeal of Pask punisher. If you're within 24", you're within assault range and few things actually die from his barrage of bullets, save for some MC's.

Guard are much better off in eternal war missions and I honestly think dakkadakka undersells the Leman Russ to a laughable level, even though I agree that some variants are terrible.

Overall though, I think the IG dex is the red haired middle child between the 6th to 7th FOC mentality and balancing/streamlining. It looks like any original thought process was lost when it came to designing the codex and a lot of miscommunication between the rule designers and models designers, which left us with terrible rules for Ogryns/Bullgryns, "tempestus bs name" and that terrible looking truck that was the least necessary addition to an army, only superseded by the "new" dark lance weapon with a blast profile that got introduced in the DE dex.
It left IG players with a book that added nearly nothing worthy of note, save for Tank Commanders.
I honestly don't feel that handicapped as an IG player though, we still have our decent stuff like: manticores, flyers, eradicator/exterminator/executioner/punisher LRBT's, wyverns and veterans. Sure, it's not tournament crushing but let's not set the tone as if we're anything near pre 6th edition Tau.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MajorStoffer wrote:

And the Marines have always been, officially, in-universe, "Adeptus Astartes," it's established in the universe, has been for decades. The Imperial Guard has always, and alwyas will be The Imperial Guard, Hammer of the Emperor.

Their fancy pseudo-latin "title" isn't even for them, but for their bureaucratic masters; the Departmento Munitorum. But no, they had to invent another title for them on the spot, and not stop there, but rename the Storm Troopers to something even worse and confusing in-universe (there being a Segmentum Tempestus; "Sector of Storms," long since established), and not just rename the organization, but the standard troops to Scions and sgts to Tempestors? Seriously? And still not feeling content, they renamed the Commissariat into the Officio Praefectus, and wrote what is basically bad torture porn based on Harry Potter for background for the Commissariat and Storm troopers.

Their whole handling of the Guard has been atrocious on so many levels, were it not for Forgeworld I would have shelved the army.

Oh... And this part made me feel sad that I'm only able to exalt once! :(

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The powerhouse builds in this day and age seem to be Krieger.

What.

I've only heard complaints about the sorry state of this bloody army.

 Aenarian wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The powerhouse builds in this day and age seem to be Krieger.

What.

I've only heard complaints about the sorry state of this bloody army.

Krieg can artillery spam quite aggressively, so if you're going that route they make an effective gunline, but given the prohibitive cost of their basic infantry, no veterans, no psykers, fliers or buff support that's kind of the only thing they're genuinely good at.

Yes, Imperial Guard more or less no longer have a niche. Other armies can do hordes better than IG can, other armies can gunline better than the IG can, other armies can do mech-infantry better than IG can.

Pretty much the only thing that IG can do better then any other faction is parking-lot lists, with tons of tanks and artillery. The problem is that 6th edition's vehicle rules utterly gutted armor-spam, maelstrom made it even worse, and to add to that general power creep has made most IG armor overpriced for the amount of damage they can put out.

 Zewrath wrote:
I never understood the appeal of Pask punisher. If you're within 24", you're within assault range

What units are you aware of that can reliably assault 24''? And... why are you sending Pask out there alone and unaided so that he's trying to kill entire units by himself? Paskisher is an anchor for your army, not a lone-wolf.

Honestly the Guard are, in my opinion, a "love it or leave it" army.

Either you love everything about them and just have fun playing...or you hate it all and get frustrated.

I like to think I'm in the first camp. It's why I am considering buying a Deathstrike soon. Because why not?

I wish there were more synergy options with guard to make powerful combinations. Everyone rules that you can't fire a second missile with Manticore by using the techpriest ability, same with over-riding the Ordnance rule for LRBT's. Why shouldn't we be able to do that? They nerfed the LC's leadership bubble, who's going to buff our heavy weapon squads for orders now? The LC barely even has a role anymore thanks to the priest buff.

IG artillery is way too expensive, the basilisk and manticore are barely worth their points, while the new hotness the Wyvern is so cheap other options become non-choices, making the codex have horrid internal balance.

We need better internal balance and more synergy options.

Huh, this is kinda all news to me. Sure Astro Millivanilli haven't gotten any of the crazy formations, but " the Guard barely function in a friendly environment anymore"?
I hadn't heard any power complaints after their 6th ed. book came out, people just kinda stopped talking aboot it

 BlaxicanX wrote:
What units are you aware of that can reliably assault 24''? And... why are you sending Pask out there alone and unaided so that he's trying to kill entire units by himself? Paskisher is an anchor for your army, not a lone-wolf.

You're rarely ever skirting just beyond the 24" mark and since there's another tank in front of Pask (unless you're willing to let him eat the lascanon shots first) then any unit that's capable of moving 12" in the moving phase, which is the vast majority of any capable assault unit and some are even fleet.
Why are you assuming he's alone and unaided? triple shunting dread knights is not uncommon for me to face, so if you have some magic trick to how to eliminate 3 shunting MC's before they charge and instagibs your Pask tank then I'm all ears. They burn my bubble wrap with contemptuous ease and proceed to assault right afterwards, if the bubble wrap is mixed with infantry fodder and vehicles, then his pathetic 24" gun is barely able to reach anything, which defeats his purpose.

 ultimentra wrote:

IG artillery is way too expensive, the basilisk and manticore are barely worth their points, while the new hotness the Wyvern is so cheap other options become non-choices, making the codex have horrid internal balance.

We need better internal balance and more synergy options.

Thanks Cruddace!

 Zewrath wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
What units are you aware of that can reliably assault 24''? And... why are you sending Pask out there alone and unaided so that he's trying to kill entire units by himself? Paskisher is an anchor for your army, not a lone-wolf.

You're rarely ever skirting just beyond the 24" mark and since there's another tank in front of Pask (unless you're willing to let him eat the lascanon shots first) then any unit that's capable of moving 12" in the moving phase, which is the vast majority of any capable assault unit and some are even fleet.
Why are you assuming he's alone and unaided? triple shunting dread knights is not uncommon for me to face, so if you have some magic trick to how to eliminate 3 shunting MC's before they charge and instagibs your Pask tank then I'm all ears. They burn my bubble wrap with contemptuous ease and proceed to assault right afterwards, if the bubble wrap is mixed with infantry fodder and vehicles, then his pathetic 24" gun is barely able to reach anything, which defeats his purpose.

So, I'm going to sound a bit like an ass here, but are you sure that these triple-shunting DKs are shunting and then assaulting right after that? Because if that is the case, then your opponent is actually cheating- the rules for the Personal Teleporter and the shunt move specifically prohibit charging after making a shunt move.

Whiskey144 wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
What units are you aware of that can reliably assault 24''? And... why are you sending Pask out there alone and unaided so that he's trying to kill entire units by himself? Paskisher is an anchor for your army, not a lone-wolf.

You're rarely ever skirting just beyond the 24" mark and since there's another tank in front of Pask (unless you're willing to let him eat the lascanon shots first) then any unit that's capable of moving 12" in the moving phase, which is the vast majority of any capable assault unit and some are even fleet.
Why are you assuming he's alone and unaided? triple shunting dread knights is not uncommon for me to face, so if you have some magic trick to how to eliminate 3 shunting MC's before they charge and instagibs your Pask tank then I'm all ears. They burn my bubble wrap with contemptuous ease and proceed to assault right afterwards, if the bubble wrap is mixed with infantry fodder and vehicles, then his pathetic 24" gun is barely able to reach anything, which defeats his purpose.

So, I'm going to sound a bit like an ass here, but are you sure that these triple-shunting DKs are shunting and then assaulting right after that? Because if that is the case, then your opponent is actually cheating- the rules for the Personal Teleporter and the shunt move specifically prohibit charging after making a shunt move.

No, sorry if that's not clear. What he does is shunt all 3 of them near Pask&friends, cast sanctuary, roast my conscripts/guardsmen/whatever with his torrent flamers. If I'm VERY lucky I kill 1 and every 3rd month or so, I kill 2, then he charges and the tanks just dies by default. After that, he's just cleaning up the rest because the rest of my army is also very busy with everything else that either shunts or deep strikes from turn 1 and afterwards.

 Zewrath wrote:
You're rarely ever skirting just beyond the 24" mark and since there's another tank in front of Pask (unless you're willing to let him eat the lascanon shots first) then any unit that's capable of moving 12" in the moving phase, which is the vast majority of any capable assault unit and some are even fleet.

Even if you're at, say, 22'', that's still a 10'' charge, which has a very small statistical chance of happening even with fleet. If those are the kinds of odds you're basing your argument on then I guess you must hate all vehicles, since a 5 point BS3 guardsmen with a lascannon can always roll a 4 to hit, 6 to pen and 6 to explode any vehicle, amirite?

Why are you assuming he's alone and unaided? triple shunting dread knights is not uncommon for me to face, so if you have some magic trick to how to eliminate 3 shunting MC's before they charge and instagibs your Pask tank then I'm all ears. They burn my bubble wrap with contemptuous ease and proceed to assault right afterwards, if the bubble wrap is mixed with infantry fodder and vehicles, then his pathetic 24" gun is barely able to reach anything, which defeats his purpose.

The purpose of Pask and his unit isn't to kill three 2+sv monstrous creatures in a single turn. That's a terrible metric to use when gauging his viability. It's like saying Dreadknights are a "pathetic" unit because they'll get owned fighting an invisible Imperial Knight.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:
You're rarely ever skirting just beyond the 24" mark and since there's another tank in front of Pask (unless you're willing to let him eat the lascanon shots first) then any unit that's capable of moving 12" in the moving phase, which is the vast majority of any capable assault unit and some are even fleet.

Even if you're at, say, 22'', that's still a 10'' charge, which has a very small statistical chance of happening even with fleet. If those are the kinds of odds you're basing your argument on then I guess you must hate all vehicles, since a 5 point BS3 guardsmen with a lascannon can always roll a 4 to hit, 6 to pen and 6 to explode any vehicle, amirite?

Ignoring the point that there's a squadron mate in front on him and my point about creatures/mechanics that instantly closes the gap. *golfclaps*

Pask's purpose isn't to kill three 2+sv monstrous creatures in a single turn. That's a terrible metric to use when gauging his viability. Dreadknights get owned by invisible Imperial Knights- I guess they're pathetic, amirite?

Yawn! What kind of pathetic grasping straw man bs is this? So divine me, oh great wiseman, then what is his purpose? Kill low armored infantry? In an army that has access to so much anti GEQ, in an edition/meta filled with options that already slaughters hordes/GEQ? Gee willy. Batman, what a fantastic role to sink all my points in! Oh wait what, his role is to hunt fast MC's like Riptides/WK? Oh wait, he can't. How about dem MEQ's then? What? Kill fething tactical squads? Are you kidding me?
Of course there're situations where he's forced to stand his ground and shoot an incoming unit, he's pathetically slow to avoid shunting/deep strike/12" move units. Oh wait, you're telling me his not made for that? His purpose is to do what exactly? Chip away minor wounds and and let your strategically awesomely "supporting" unit finish the job for him?
You know what, you sound like the kind of person who thinks tactical squads are awesome. Emperor fething Christ!

The problem with the Pask Punisher is it is only truly effective at 20-21 inches, as if you're at a greater range you can fire the main gun, but probably do only heavily limited damage due to the way wounds evaporate if models in a unit are out of range.

And yeah, these people are right. At 24'' range, you're in the sweet spot for your opponent's army to destroy your tanks. Sure, it might take more than one turn to intercept Pask, but in the second turn the intercept course is on, a lot of the time Pask is screwed unless you pull off the flat out order, roll well and sacrifice 400~ points of your firepower for what would probably be an extremely important turn; and still, this issue is going to be cyclical throughout each following turn with no to little chance to fire if you want him to live. That's because the Russ is ridiculously slow and these sorts of units are absurdly fast.

The Executioner, with its 36'' range, means that your opponent has far less easy tricks up his sleeve to neutralise it, and it can do a lot of damage with Pask. Without double PC sponsons on him, the investment is underwhelming, though. I took a 440 pt double Pask Executioner squadron before because of the range reasons I've discussed, because in the right circumstances it annihilates things, and because its a reasonable counter to MCs.

Its just not a reliable anchor for your entire army, though. Pask and his tank buddy are the best choice in the book, no doubt about it, but they can't carry the entire book because they're inherently flawed with their exorbitant price and tendency to make games either go really well or really poorly with their early death or complete failure to accomplish anything.

The book is ultimately, awful. Its barebones at best. If you close your eyes, pretend the meta doesn't exist, and just focus on building up your IG company, you can look past its uselessness and get some enjoyment out of it, but the fact remains that you're going to get a sobering realisation of how crappy the army is when your opponent fields Necrons, Tau, Eldar and any of the latest competitive builds. The OP lays out the failure of each build very well. I suspect that the surprise factor of an airborne army could be effective but its not clear cut enough that I'd dare to invest in one; S4 AP5 pie plates as the main ordnance does not inspire faith in that idea honestly.

 Zewrath wrote:
Ignoring the point that there's a squadron mate in front on him and my point about creatures/mechanics that instantly closes the gap. *golfclaps*

His tank buddy shouldn't be more than one or two inches in front of him to absorb hits due to wound allocation rules, so again that's likely a ~22'' move. You've yet to provide an example of this mystical unit that can "instantly close the gap". DK's can't charge after shunting.

Yawn! What kind of pathetic grasping straw man bs is this?

You brought up the Dreadknights, not me. Do you know what a strawman is?

So divine me, oh great wiseman, then what is his purpose?

Pask's purpose is to kill hordes, MEQ, TEQ, vehicles and monstrous creatures while having the durability to require concentrated fire to take down. He does more damage to vehicles at every AV level then any other vehicle in the codex point for point and is only bested by melta-gun vets (who are less durable and need to be even closer to do any damage). He does more damage to MC's then any other unit in the codex, point for point (and will on average kill a Dreadknight a turn). He decimates hordes and will cripple TEQ in a single volley. And because of his threat-level he can't be ignored, which forces your opponent to deal with him. He's a very competent swiss army knife in a codex where the vast majority of units are highly specialized (and, these days, aren't even particularly good at that specific role). That Pask can't wipe out your opponent's entire heavy support slot by himself in a turn or magically fix all the short-comings of the Guard codex doesn't really change that.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
Pask and his tank buddy are the best choice in the book, no doubt about it, but they can't carry the entire book because they're inherently flawed with their exorbitant price and tendency to make games either go really well or really poorly with their early death or complete failure to accomplish anything.

That's pretty much the gist of it. Pask suffers from a lot of the problems that are inherent to all of the Russes (and vehicles in general), which means he certainly has weaknesses. At the end of the day he's still pretty much the best unit in the 'dex though.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:
Ignoring the point that there's a squadron mate in front on him and my point about creatures/mechanics that instantly closes the gap. *golfclaps*

His tank buddy shouldn't be more than one or two inches in front of him to absorb hits due to wound allocation rules, so again that's likely a ~22'' move. You've yet to provide an example of this mystical unit that can "instantly close the gap". DK's can't charge after shunting.

Read post above, regarding the realistic range of Paskisher. "Within 24"" range is not meant as a literal term in the given context but as a rule of thumb for most IG players who observe incoming enemy units towards their tanks. You're starting an argument based on, what you think is, a statement meant literally. When the actual feth did I claim that DK's could charge after shunt? They charge as soon as the are able, because there is not enough firepower to kill 3 separate DK's after they shunted and used their torrent weapons (how is this hard to figure out?).
DK's instantly closes the gap, FMC can close the gap, hell with overcharge the Riptide could close the gap if it wanted to ditto with the WK. Seriously you're asking for examples that are commonplace in the game?

You brought up the Dreadknights, not me. Do you know what a strawman is?

Because it's an example to support my argument, apparently you don't know the word.

Pask's purpose is to kill hordes, MEQ, TEQ, vehicles and monstrous creatures while having the durability to require concentrated fire to take down. He does more damage to vehicles at every AV level then any other vehicle in the codex point for point and is only bested by melta-gun vets (who are less durable and need to be even closer to do any damage). He does more damage to MC's then any other unit in the codex, point for point (and will on average kill a Dreadknight a turn). He decimates hordes and will cripple TEQ in a single volley. And because of his threat-level he can't be ignored, which forces your opponent to deal with him. He's a very competent swiss army knife in a codex where the vast majority of units are highly specialized (and, these days, aren't even particularly good at that specific role). That Pask can't wipe out your opponent's entire heavy support slot by himself in a turn or magically fix all the short-comings of the Guard codex doesn't really change that.

Yawn, horde killing is useless as explained. What MC's? The only monster I shoot are DK's and carnifexes. The rest are commandeered by people who don't have gaks for brains and keeps them well out of reach from Paskisher, which is a pathetically easy thing to accomplish. I could throw you a bone and say that he's good against AV but since the book is full of AT choices, it's not really that impressive and certainly not something that could carry the game.

just because the IG has other hoard killing options doesn't mean the LR punisher (Pask exists to enhance a single LR of any type. rememebr you can put him on other LR varients) is crap and useless. having multiple tools in your toolbox isn't a bad thing.

Read post above, regarding the realistic range of Paskisher. "Within 24"" range is not meant as a literal term in the given context but as a rule of thumb for most IG players who observe incoming enemy units towards their tanks. You're starting an argument based on, what you think is, a statement meant literally. When the actual feth did I claim that DK's could charge after shunt? They charge as soon as the are able, because there is not enough firepower to kill 3 separate DK's after they shunted and used their torrent weapons (how is this hard to figure out?).
DK's instantly closes the gap, FMC can close the gap, hell with overcharge the Riptide could close the gap if it wanted to ditto with the WK. Seriously you're asking for examples that are commonplace in the game?

Your complaint was that the range of the Punisher made it too susceptible to assaults. Every unit you've referenced so far would need multiple turns to get into assault with it.

Because it's an example to support my argument, apparently you don't know the word.

Pointing out that your cited example fails to support your argument (Paskisher is bad because he can't kill three Dreadknights before they kill him in assault) isn't a strawman.

Yawn, horde killing is useless as explained. What MC's? The only monster I shoot are DK's and carnifexes.

Paskisher shreds them both. And him killing hordes (and MEQ, and TEQ, and vehicles, and MC's) isn't a useless point because your assertion was that, and I quote: "few things actually die from his barrage of bullets, save for some MC's", which is objectively false.

I could throw you a bone and say that he's good against AV but since the book is full of AT choices, it's not really that impressive and certainly not something that could carry the game.

He does more damage against vehicles then any other unit in the codex, point for point. He isn't going to "carry the game", but I never asserted that he would, and the idea that a unit has to single-handily carry your list in order to be good is stupid.

So basically, your complaint is that he doesn't accomplish what you want him to accomplish, which categorically is not the same thing as being sub-par. Paskisher does good damage to just about every unit type in the game, but you don't care. Which is fine, but is hardly an issue with Paskisher itself.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Read post above, regarding the realistic range of Paskisher. "Within 24"" range is not meant as a literal term in the given context but as a rule of thumb for most IG players who observe incoming enemy units towards their tanks. You're starting an argument based on, what you think is, a statement meant literally. When the actual feth did I claim that DK's could charge after shunt? They charge as soon as the are able, because there is not enough firepower to kill 3 separate DK's after they shunted and used their torrent weapons (how is this hard to figure out?).
DK's instantly closes the gap, FMC can close the gap, hell with overcharge the Riptide could close the gap if it wanted to ditto with the WK. Seriously you're asking for examples that are commonplace in the game?

Your complaint was that the range of the Punisher made it too susceptible to assaults. Every unit you've referenced so far would need multiple turns to get into assault with it.

Except that all units need multiple turns to get into assault, given the disallowance of Turn 1 assaults. Requiring a unit to close to that short of a distance does make it susceptible to a Turn 2 assault of the particularly fast assault units in the game.

 MajorStoffer wrote:

 Aenarian wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The powerhouse builds in this day and age seem to be Krieger.

What.

I've only heard complaints about the sorry state of this bloody army.

Krieg can artillery spam quite aggressively, so if you're going that route they make an effective gunline, but given the prohibitive cost of their basic infantry, no veterans, no psykers, fliers or buff support that's kind of the only thing they're genuinely good at.

Between their command squad's toys and an Inquisition detachment they can do just fine at sitting back and carpet-bombing the table.

the_scotsman wrote:
I'm sorry but I am with the GW legal department and I demand everyone in this thread use the proper copyrighted nomenclature for this army: Astroboy Militeruriopyrightgamesworkshopltd and militurdium testosteroni.

Turn the codex over, it says "more commonly known as the Imperial guard"

It's a high gothic name, did you gak the bed with adeptus astartes too?

 Robisagg wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
I'm sorry but I am with the GW legal department and I demand everyone in this thread use the proper copyrighted nomenclature for this army: Astroboy Militeruriopyrightgamesworkshopltd and militurdium testosteroni.

Turn the codex over, it says "more commonly known as the Imperial guard"

It's a high gothic name, did you gak the bed with adeptus astartes too?

You missed the point.

Adeptus Astartes has been the "official" in-universe name for Space Marines for.. -ages-. Yet their codex is still "Codex: Space Marines"

Imperial Guard were never "Astra Militarum" until the codex was released. That name never showed up. Ever. Until this codex. And hilariously enough, it's barely present in the codex outside of the title.

Well, if the trend continues a la blood angels (Codex: Adeptus Astartes Blood Angels), I'd venture a guess that it'll be C:AA next time around.

Whiskey144 wrote:
Except that all units need multiple turns to get into assault, given the disallowance of Turn 1 assaults. Requiring a unit to close to that short of a distance does make it susceptible to a Turn 2 assault of the particularly fast assault units in the game.

What units are you aware of that can close a 24'' gap and then assault in the same turn?

There are quite a few units that can travel across the board very quickly turn 1 and be in position turn 2, but that has nothing to do with Punisher's 24'' range. When units like seekers have an average move of ~21'' a turn, it doesn't matter whether your weapon range is 24'' or 48'', they're probably going to be in assault range in a couple of turns regardless because the board itself is only so big.

I've found that 7th edition is a game that favours mobility over all else. Being fast, shooty, then tough, then choppy is the order of the day.

Guard suffer from an "insidious" change. High-end Mobility has increased by a factor of 2.5 . A fast skimmer used to move 24", and that was it. That wass your speed limit. Now, a Flyer can move 60" in one turn, if they're so inclined. Other models can easily move 36". Eldar / Dark Eldar Jetbikes can move 48" in a turn.

And our guns remain the same. No longer range, no increased power... the other not-so-subtle change in an increase in Ignores Cover weaponry, and we rely pretty heavily upon cover saves to increase our survivability.

So our lower mobility on say, Infantry or a Leman Russ, used to be a factor of about 25% of the high-end speed. Now it's 10% of the high-end speed. Sitting and shooting used to give you several turns before your enemies were upon you. Now you don't have that luxury. We can't pick targets, even with decent LOS, because our opposition is so fast they don't need to ever expose themselves.

Weapons have grown more powerful. I mean, "D" weapons that just annihilate things without any real chance to defend and retaliate. The game has become almost strike and counter-strike, at the highest levels. Either you wipe something out in one turn, or you get wiped out in a turn. There's no back and forth, it's just units disappearing when they are in range. Being tough doesn't matter, a Land Raider is killed just as easily as a Rhino. D Weapons, Mega-Haywire, Multi-Meltaguns in units... not that they're that great anymore... but the point is you used to get something out of AV 14.

Torrent weapons have become the utter bane of our infantry. The weak side armour of Chimerae allows those fast moving units to shred the meagre defences that our troops have.

Without hard mobility counters, our guns haven't kept up with opposing armies' ability to glass cannon us to a degree that the glass doesn't matter. We're wiped out before a reprisal can be made. And if that reprisal doesn't wipe a target in one turn? They're on the other side of the board, out of LOS. :(

 BlaxicanX wrote:

Whiskey144 wrote:
Except that all units need multiple turns to get into assault, given the disallowance of Turn 1 assaults. Requiring a unit to close to that short of a distance does make it susceptible to a Turn 2 assault of the particularly fast assault units in the game.

What units are you aware of that can close a 24'' gap and then assault in the same turn?

There are quite a few units that can travel across the board very quickly turn 1 and be in position turn 2, but that has nothing to do with Punisher's 24'' range. When units like seekers have an average move of ~21'' a turn, it doesn't matter whether your weapon range is 24'' or 48'', they're probably going to be in assault range in a couple of turns regardless because the board itself is only so big.

Rumor is that the Skitarii will get a formation for the Sicarian infantry units that allows them to make a Run move and then charge; given that all of them have Dunestrider- getting +3" on all moves, it's not hard to imagine that the formation would allow for Ruststalkers to cross 24" and then get into combat pretty easily.

Consider: 9" Movement Phase, D6+3" Run move, 2D6+3" assault move; being semi-conservative, say a 9" Movement+6" Run+9" Charge and you've just covered 24" in one turn.

That sounds pretty spooky.

I'm very interested in the Skitarii. Pretty much everything we've heard about them makes them sound like meta-smashers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 greatbigtree wrote:
I've found that 7th edition is a game that favours mobility over all else. Being fast, shooty, then tough, then choppy is the order of the day.

Guard suffer from an "insidious" change. High-end Mobility has increased by a factor of 2.5 . A fast skimmer used to move 24", and that was it. That wass your speed limit. Now, a Flyer can move 60" in one turn, if they're so inclined. Other models can easily move 36". Eldar / Dark Eldar Jetbikes can move 48" in a turn.

And our guns remain the same. No longer range, no increased power... the other not-so-subtle change in an increase in Ignores Cover weaponry, and we rely pretty heavily upon cover saves to increase our survivability.

So our lower mobility on say, Infantry or a Leman Russ, used to be a factor of about 25% of the high-end speed. Now it's 10% of the high-end speed. Sitting and shooting used to give you several turns before your enemies were upon you. Now you don't have that luxury. We can't pick targets, even with decent LOS, because our opposition is so fast they don't need to ever expose themselves.

Weapons have grown more powerful. I mean, "D" weapons that just annihilate things without any real chance to defend and retaliate. The game has become almost strike and counter-strike, at the highest levels. Either you wipe something out in one turn, or you get wiped out in a turn. There's no back and forth, it's just units disappearing when they are in range. Being tough doesn't matter, a Land Raider is killed just as easily as a Rhino. D Weapons, Mega-Haywire, Multi-Meltaguns in units... not that they're that great anymore... but the point is you used to get something out of AV 14.

Torrent weapons have become the utter bane of our infantry. The weak side armour of Chimerae allows those fast moving units to shred the meagre defences that our troops have.

Without hard mobility counters, our guns haven't kept up with opposing armies' ability to glass cannon us to a degree that the glass doesn't matter. We're wiped out before a reprisal can be made. And if that reprisal doesn't wipe a target in one turn? They're on the other side of the board, out of LOS. :(

Yeah. I think the Guard are comparable to Space Marines in that they created with mechanics for a different edition, and haven't received the type of overhaul needed to match the current state of the game. Like, there are units in the marine codices that have had the same stat-line for a decade, with just reduced cost. Points reductions are nice, but are a bandage over the problem rather then actually addressing it.

Guard have a lot of units that don't really have a role anymore and need to be re-evaluated by the design team. Stuff like the sentinels, Hellhound varients, Russes etc.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
What ever bla bla stuff

Totally don't care. You're pathetically trying to come across with a point based on the assumption that Paskisher skirts on exactly 24" and is thus golden, because due to magic and science combined, nothing can assault him afterwards.
Here's what fast assault units do: use turn 1 to shunt or deploy on edge of their deployment and use full movement + run. Turn 2 (3 if you're really holding him back), declare assault. This isn't science, bud.
Now, scram and take comfort in how you "totally proved a point because NOTHING can assault on 24"" with bad wannabe 4chan lingo. Let the adults handle the fact that assault is a frustratingly easy way to obliterate Paskisher&friends.
Can't be arsed to argue with people who translate the phrase "within 24"" to "exactly 24" away", amirite, lulz, -insert bad taste 4chan lingo here-.

 Zewrath wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
What ever bla bla stuff

Totally don't care.

And yet here you are ranting about it. If you're not going to continue the discussion then take your tears elsewhere.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
What ever bla bla stuff

Totally don't care.

And yet here you are ranting about it. If you're not going to continue the discussion then take your tears elsewhere.

There's no discussion, I just stated that. Read. Thanks.

'kay.

What bugs me, is how all the other codices have special rules for almost every single weapon. Every unit seems to be loaded with special rules, every gun and every thing else. My Harlequins have a ton of rules for example, as does the necrons. Formations only give them more.

Then the lasgun (and the guard) have next to nothing except orders and maybe a buff here and there from commissars or priests.

While this is a flaw with the game, its a bit annoying when the enemy have a host of useful rules on already better items that further increase the gap of power.

Im happy that we have orders for example, it makes Guard Commanders the only commanders who are better prized for their command than their killing ability, but its nothing compared to near fearless, tough warriors with auto-glancing weapons and an invulnerable save for example.

I have never been happy with our latest book. Both the fluff and the rules are by far the most bland I have ever got and the rules have always felt meh.

 Swastakowey wrote:
What bugs me, is how all the other codices have special rules for almost every single weapon. Every unit seems to be loaded with special rules, every gun and every thing else. My Harlequins have a ton of rules for example, as does the necrons. Formations only give them more.

Then the lasgun (and the guard) have next to nothing except orders and maybe a buff here and there from commissars or priests.

While this is a flaw with the game, its a bit annoying when the enemy have a host of useful rules on already better items that further increase the gap of power.

Im happy that we have orders for example, it makes Guard Commanders the only commanders who are better prized for their command than their killing ability, but its nothing compared to near fearless, tough warriors with auto-glancing weapons and an invulnerable save for example.

I have never been happy with our latest book. Both the fluff and the rules are by far the most bland I have ever got and the rules have always felt meh.

That's kind of the point of the Guard though. They're not the elite soldiers, they're poor bastards who got drafted. The bloody dog-faced infantry that get sent into the meat-grinder just to run the enemy ammo dry, and the mass-produced vehicles which depend more on weight of numbers than superior equipment / pilots to win. I actually really like how guard operate with their orders and such, I don't really think they'd need the whole "EVERYONE GETS ALL THE SPECIAL RULES!" treatment if the codex was designed for this day-and-age.

I don't mind the idea of troops and their generic small-arms being generic- orks are very similar in that way- I do think that the Guard should have more flavor on an army-wide level though, which is why removing the special characters like Al'Raheim and Chenkov sucked so much.

Space Marines have a similar issue- regular marines are just incredibly dull mechanically in how they function on the table-top- but they kind of get around it by having things like chapter tactics.

Even if the Guardsmen just remained a simple guardsmen, at least being able to change the way the army plays beyond just the generic horde OR mech dynamic would be welcome.

I like it too, but on the table it doesnt turn out too well. I mean, if necrons are meant to be elite, why are there 50+ models on the field all with crazy rules, yet I have almost 100 with nearly nothing. I don't want hundreds of models, but we are being left behind rules wise with little compensation. Look at the new Skittarii codex. EVERY GUN, EVERY MODEL and also formations has special rules.

How can we compete? Numbers can work yes, but even then I havent had too much luck with numbers.

If it were my way ALL the factions would have less special rules. But as it is, we are being left behind in the rules race.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I don't mind the idea of troops and their generic small-arms being generic- orks are very similar in that way- I do think that the Guard should have more flavor on an army-wide level though, which is why removing the special characters like Al'Raheim and Chenkov sucked so much.

Space Marines have a similar issue- regular marines are just incredibly dull mechanically in how they function on the table-top- but they kind of get around it by having things like chapter tactics.

Even if the Guardsmen just remained a simple guardsmen, at least being able to change the way the army plays beyond just the generic horde OR mech dynamic would be welcome.

Oh, I very much agree with you. The guard having some army wide tactics / options / what have you (something like chapter tactics, or maybe something akin to making formations of their own?) would most certainly help guard and give them more flavor. I'm just saying that special rule bloat is something I'm glad IG don't have, as it would pretty much undermine what they're supposed to be otherwise.

 Swastakowey wrote:
I like it too, but on the table it doesnt turn out too well. I mean, if necrons are meant to be elite, why are there 50+ models on the field all with crazy rules, yet I have almost 100 with nearly nothing. e.

Well... To be fair, you can get two veterans for 1 point less than 1 necron warrior. And you can almost get three regular guard for the price of 1 warrior! Wow! Such value!

That said, necrons are bat-gak crazy with the new codex. Decurian is stupidity unchained, and guard sadly suffer from a somewhat older design view.

 morganfreeman wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I don't mind the idea of troops and their generic small-arms being generic- orks are very similar in that way- I do think that the Guard should have more flavor on an army-wide level though, which is why removing the special characters like Al'Raheim and Chenkov sucked so much.

Space Marines have a similar issue- regular marines are just incredibly dull mechanically in how they function on the table-top- but they kind of get around it by having things like chapter tactics.

Even if the Guardsmen just remained a simple guardsmen, at least being able to change the way the army plays beyond just the generic horde OR mech dynamic would be welcome.

Oh, I very much agree with you. The guard having some army wide tactics / options / what have you (something like chapter tactics, or maybe something akin to making formations of their own?) would most certainly help guard and give them more flavor. I'm just saying that special rule bloat is something I'm glad IG don't have, as it would pretty much undermine what they're supposed to be otherwise.

 Swastakowey wrote:
I like it too, but on the table it doesnt turn out too well. I mean, if necrons are meant to be elite, why are there 50+ models on the field all with crazy rules, yet I have almost 100 with nearly nothing. e.

Well... To be fair, you can get two veterans for 1 point less than 1 necron warrior. And you can almost get three regular guard for the price of 1 warrior! Wow! Such value!

That said, necrons are bat-gak crazy with the new codex. Decurian is stupidity unchained, and guard sadly suffer from a somewhat older design view.

And two veterans will die to one warrior without fail, as will three guardsmen.

Guard has cheap infantry, but the power level of the game means that they're basically useless in combat scenarios outside of dumb luck. Orks and Tyranids, the other "hordy" armies (though Necrons now do it best....) rely on buffing their fodder or having them replaceable to work; Painboyz, Tervigons, the formation which allows endless horma/termagants. Just having bodies doesn't get you anywhere when Knights, Wraithknights, Missilecides, Farsight Bomb, Decurion, Wave Serpents and so on exist, you need bodies with some other abilities. Having rules for specific Guard regiments to give infantry a chance would be nice; Valhallans with "Send in the next wave!," Vostroyans with army-wide carapace and mastercrafted weapons, but more expensive, Tallarans with scout/move through cover (technically available through Forgeworld, Taros 2.0), Cadians with extra orders and re-roll 1s to hit with lasguns, Krieg not being 20 points more per squad, and 50 points more per PCS/CCS for WS4 and not taking 25% tests, etc.

Even if the codex was still gak, having some actual thematic options and respect for the fluff would make me happy. Basically how it was in 4th; Guard only had one really good list, but you could build any kind of Guard army imagineable. Might be rather tough to eek out a win, but at the end of the day it was the Guard force you wanted to run with all sorts of different approaches to lists.

 MajorStoffer wrote:

 Aenarian wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The powerhouse builds in this day and age seem to be Krieger.

What.

I've only heard complaints about the sorry state of this bloody army.

Krieg can artillery spam quite aggressively, so if you're going that route they make an effective gunline, but given the prohibitive cost of their basic infantry, no veterans, no psykers, fliers or buff support that's kind of the only thing they're genuinely good at.

The Siege Regiment army list is a one tricky pony. The list would fare poorly against twin shunting Dreadknights with incinerators, for example.

 God In Action wrote:

 MajorStoffer wrote:

 Aenarian wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The powerhouse builds in this day and age seem to be Krieger.

What.

I've only heard complaints about the sorry state of this bloody army.

Krieg can artillery spam quite aggressively, so if you're going that route they make an effective gunline, but given the prohibitive cost of their basic infantry, no veterans, no psykers, fliers or buff support that's kind of the only thing they're genuinely good at.

The Siege Regiment army list is a one tricky pony. The list would fare poorly against twin shunting Dreadknights with incinerators, for example.

Aye, they have something they can do reasonably well, but that thing isn't especially competitive. Drop pods, Dreadknights, MC spam in general, fliers, lots of things are very hard counters to an artillery list. That's why in the real world artillery is kilometers behind the frontline....

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Between their command squad's toys and an Inquisition detachment they can do just fine at sitting back and carpet-bombing the table.

 MajorStoffer wrote:

Krieg can artillery spam quite aggressively, so if you're going that route they make an effective gunline, but given the prohibitive cost of their basic infantry, no veterans, no psykers, fliers or buff support that's kind of the only thing they're genuinely good at.

The thing is... so can Astra Militarum. Heavy Artillery Batteries are not exclusive to Krieg, nor are Field Artillery. The sole advantage is that the Siege Regiment can take the latter as elites. Their command squads (in the Siege Regiment) has access to almost exactly the same toys as a normal CCS, except that it has worse orders and costs 40 points more and comes with a banner. Their infantry is at least 10 points overpriced, considering that Veterans are cheaper, they have worse options for allies, they have one semi-useful build in Death Rider Detachment, as they otherwise have to take infantry squads.

I can go on, but the thing is that other armies can go the same build better and cheaper. Normal AM can comfortably play the same style with few of the drawbacks, and Renegades and Heretics are arguably superior in most departments. RoH can even take Artillery as troops if they want to!

 Aenarian wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Between their command squad's toys and an Inquisition detachment they can do just fine at sitting back and carpet-bombing the table.

 MajorStoffer wrote:

Krieg can artillery spam quite aggressively, so if you're going that route they make an effective gunline, but given the prohibitive cost of their basic infantry, no veterans, no psykers, fliers or buff support that's kind of the only thing they're genuinely good at.

The thing is... so can Astra Militarum. Heavy Artillery Batteries are not exclusive to Krieg, nor are Field Artillery. The sole advantage is that the Siege Regiment can take the latter as elites. Their command squads (in the Siege Regiment) has access to almost exactly the same toys as a normal CCS, except that it has worse orders and costs 40 points more and comes with a banner. Their infantry is at least 10 points overpriced, considering that Veterans are cheaper, they have worse options for allies, they have one semi-useful build in Death Rider Detachment, as they otherwise have to take infantry squads.

I can go on, but the thing is that other armies can go the same build better and cheaper. Normal AM can comfortably play the same style with few of the drawbacks, and Renegades and Heretics are arguably superior in most departments. RoH can even take Artillery as troops if they want to!

Well that's kind of the whole point of this thread, isn't it? The "theme" of the Guard and its variants is that they have a few builds they can do alright, but someone else can do better.

On the artillery front, Orks can pie plate almost as much as Guard and be better in every other category, Thunderfire cannons remain very good for Marines, the only thing Guard has is volume of artillery, but everything else they bring is objectively inferior to what other armies can do.

The artillery units (I mean Artillery type unit, not the artillery tanks) do give the Krieg a huge advantage over other artillery themed lists because of how durable an artillery unit is. I cannot remember ever losing an artillery unit to shooting. This does mean that compared to Orks and all others (apart from Renegade and Heretics), at least one variant of Imperial Guard does have an advantage.

The trick is to deploy artillery on the extreme flanks. If need be, put about 2/3rds on the best defended flank and 1/3rd on the least defended flank (as the sacrificial flank). Hug cover, and place all but one crewman to the front of the artillery piece. This minimises how much damage the enemy can do to them and gives the artillery the maximum number of turns to shoot.

MajorStoffer wrote:Text

Well, it was claimed that DKoK was the go-to build, which it certainly is not. Especially since it has one decent build, which is overshadowed by IG or RoH doing the same one even better, and they have other builds.

But yes, I agree that the Guard (and most of its variants, Elysians are still one-of-a-kind) lacks unique builds and that many units are overpriced or simply unnecessary.

If you are not in a tournament and are playing against an opponent who believes its Ok to use triple shunting dreadknights, re-evaluate your choice of opponents not your army list.

 morganfreeman wrote:

Imperial Guard were never "Astra Militarum" until the codex was released. That name never showed up. Ever. Until this codex. And hilariously enough, it's barely present in the codex outside of the title.

It's there because they got their assess handed to them in the Chapterhouse Case. Seems that 'Imperial Guard' is too generic to copyright. So they're renaming everything to try and create copyrightable material.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 morganfreeman wrote:

Imperial Guard were never "Astra Militarum" until the codex was released. That name never showed up. Ever. Until this codex. And hilariously enough, it's barely present in the codex outside of the title.

It's there because they got their assess handed to them in the Chapterhouse Case. Seems that 'Imperial Guard' is too generic to copyright. So they're renaming everything to try and create copyrightable material.

Which is itself an asinine decision. Imperial Guard isn't something you can copyright, but GW had brand recognition. If you google "Imperial Guard," you're going to get Cadians, Napoleon's Old Guard Grenadiers and a few references to Imperial Japan.

Sure, Astra Militarum will only get one result, but GW had recognition in common parlance, especially within the "nerd" community. Mention Imperial Guard in a sci-fi conversations, and you stand more than even chances of the other person thinking of 40k Imperial Guard, mention Astra Militarum and they'll say "bless you."

It's annoyed the veterans, confused people on the fringe and added nothing. Especially since even with renames, the CH case spelled it out that other companies can say what GW kit things are compatible with, designed in equal scale with or are equivalent to in wargear/aesthetic, etc. Renames really do nothing for them.

When you add forge world to imperial guard they become ungodly good. And all you need really is a single blob squad onot a skyshield landing pad.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
When you add forge world to imperial guard they become ungodly good. And all you need really is a single blob squad onot a skyshield landing pad.

Stormblade. a wide variety of good fliers. maybe a macharius. An allied Castigator. more stormblade.


Armored company list....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MajorStoffer wrote:

It's annoyed the veterans, confused people on the fringe and added nothing. Especially since even with renames, the CH case spelled it out that other companies can say what GW kit things are compatible with, designed in equal scale with or are equivalent to in wargear/aesthetic, etc. Renames really do nothing for them.

But, as you may know, GW is all about trying to claim ownership of all of history and all of the future as their exclusive intellectual property. So they asked a lawyer if there was anything they could do at all when told they could not do that, and he said to rename gak.

Heavy mortars, artillery carriages, vultures, avdngers, sabres, hades, tons of great stuff for ig.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
When you add forge world to imperial guard they become ungodly good. And all you need really is a single blob squad onot a skyshield landing pad.

As a player of the Siege Army DKoK list, I haven't got a clue what you base 'ungodly good' on. All the individually good units, Avenger, artillery batteries, etc., are good and effective for the points, but entirely comparable in power to the good units of standard codex units.

And Hades, good? It was god awful in the old rules, and the updated rules make it passable. Not used Sabres, but sure, my understanding is that they are amazing.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Heavy mortars, artillery carriages, vultures, avdngers, sabres, hades, tons of great stuff for ig.

FW keeps my love for the Guard alive, but what they produce is ultimately limited to support units; even their alternate lists are predicated upon the core rules and GW conception of Guard, and that FW doesn't want to offer a flatly superior choice, hence the Korps, Elysians and D-99 being very, very specific armies, good at one thing and that's about it with lots of weaknesses built-in.

Ultimately, you can build a better guard list by relying to a heavier degree on Forgeworld, but with so many support units and the extreme weakness of your core "line" units, anything which can close will annihilate you all the same, and still leaves you totally unable to compete on objectives in Maelstrom.

well, let's see, str 10 ap1 with ignores cover is pretty good if you ask me, 5 more points and armourbane.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
well, let's see, str 10 ap1 with ignores cover is pretty good if you ask me, 5 more points and armourbane.

Oh yes there is that, I must have deliberately repressed that thought, because with the changes to new Krieg orders I lost use of Fire on My Target my anti-tank was based on this exact trick.

 MajorStoffer wrote:
FW keeps my love for the Guard alive, but what they produce is ultimately limited to support units; even their alternate lists are predicated upon the core rules and GW conception of Guard, and that FW doesn't want to offer a flatly superior choice, hence the Korps, Elysians and D-99 being very, very specific armies, good at one thing and that's about it with lots of weaknesses built-in.

I'll see your Kreig and raise you an AC list. Cheap Russess as a troops choice, armored IG Orders, and vets all get tank hunter with cheap vendettas.

And did I mention STORMBLADE?


I love me a 96" no minimum distance str 10 AP 2 ten inch blast that for fairly cheap gives itself 4bs. With 9Hp. That can also switch firing modes as needed. Not quite shadowsword, but will make a mess of ye enemy units each turn.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 MajorStoffer wrote:
FW keeps my love for the Guard alive, but what they produce is ultimately limited to support units; even their alternate lists are predicated upon the core rules and GW conception of Guard, and that FW doesn't want to offer a flatly superior choice, hence the Korps, Elysians and D-99 being very, very specific armies, good at one thing and that's about it with lots of weaknesses built-in.

I'll see your Kreig and raise you an AC list. Cheap Russess as a troops choice, armored IG Orders, and vets all get tank hunter with cheap vendettas.

And did I mention STORMBLADE?


I love me a 96" no minimum distance str 10 AP 2 ten inch blast that for fairly cheap gives itself 4bs. With 9Hp. That can also switch firing modes as needed. Not quite shadowsword, but will make a mess of ye enemy units each turn.

I ordered IA1 2nd Edition within 3 hours of it being available on the FW webstore. I'm intimately familiar with the Armoured Battlegroup, but the problem with that one is it either wins big or loses big, and isn't fun for a lot of people's armies to fight against. It's the one genuine cheesy thing the Guard can do while still being fluffy, but I only use it when someone is getting a little too full of themselves, and again, will almost auto-lose maelstrom due to no mobility.

While I was gutted about the latest codex I still have a lot of fun and success playing guard

I feel all the imperial armies almost need allies to bring balance to an army these days where as crons, eldar and tau don't really need allies.

My main points of success with guard these days.
Blobs are crap, lots will disagree but imo they slow games down and don't do what much I can't achieve with other units

Mech vets work well in numbers if supported by a ccs and vets in cover with some ignore cover lascanons

Vultures are awsome

Agis with quad for some ignore cover abuse vs flyers

Wyverns, cheap and effective. Now with a fearsome rep so excellent for a cheap unit to pull drop pods away from other units.

Priests with allies can be borderline broken, dragio buffed to a 2++ that rerolls saves and hits on the charge for example

Vets in drop pods are funny

Scion cs with hotshot volley guns and coatez for awsome pod protection of vital assets. Potentially with ignores cover and prescience if powers and orders work out.

Also being smart with reserves, I see so many guard players just load the table vs pod armies and I never know why, limit there options, make them go for the target you want then crush them

Also night fighting can be very effective, we have ignore cover lascanons but that +1 save vs pods can be excellent when twinned with a well placed Agis

 MajorStoffer wrote:

I ordered IA1 2nd Edition within 3 hours of it being available on the FW webstore. I'm intimately familiar with the Armoured Battlegroup, but the problem with that one is it either wins big or loses big, and isn't fun for a lot of people's armies to fight against. It's the one genuine cheesy thing the Guard can do while still being fluffy, but I only use it when someone is getting a little too full of themselves, and again, will almost auto-lose maelstrom due to no mobility.

I usually take some valks/vendettas and vets for that.

 MajorStoffer wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 MajorStoffer wrote:
FW keeps my love for the Guard alive, but what they produce is ultimately limited to support units; even their alternate lists are predicated upon the core rules and GW conception of Guard, and that FW doesn't want to offer a flatly superior choice, hence the Korps, Elysians and D-99 being very, very specific armies, good at one thing and that's about it with lots of weaknesses built-in.

I'll see your Kreig and raise you an AC list. Cheap Russess as a troops choice, armored IG Orders, and vets all get tank hunter with cheap vendettas.

And did I mention STORMBLADE?


I love me a 96" no minimum distance str 10 AP 2 ten inch blast that for fairly cheap gives itself 4bs. With 9Hp. That can also switch firing modes as needed. Not quite shadowsword, but will make a mess of ye enemy units each turn.

I ordered IA1 2nd Edition within 3 hours of it being available on the FW webstore. I'm intimately familiar with the Armoured Battlegroup, but the problem with that one is it either wins big or loses big, and isn't fun for a lot of people's armies to fight against. It's the one genuine cheesy thing the Guard can do while still being fluffy, but I only use it when someone is getting a little too full of themselves, and again, will almost auto-lose maelstrom due to no mobility.

On the mobility note: the latest incarnation of Conqueror variants sees them as Fast type Leman Russes, for 5 points cheaper even than an Eradicator. Can't a Fast AV14/13 vehicle solve some mobility problems? I'm thinking to give one Camo-netting, extra armour and a dozer blade, maybe Lascannon, and use one or two for racing between objectives taking pot shots in the meantime.

 MajorStoffer wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 morganfreeman wrote:

Imperial Guard were never "Astra Militarum" until the codex was released. That name never showed up. Ever. Until this codex. And hilariously enough, it's barely present in the codex outside of the title.

It's there because they got their assess handed to them in the Chapterhouse Case. Seems that 'Imperial Guard' is too generic to copyright. So they're renaming everything to try and create copyrightable material.

Which is itself an asinine decision. Imperial Guard isn't something you can copyright, but GW had brand recognition. If you google "Imperial Guard," you're going to get Cadians, Napoleon's Old Guard Grenadiers and a few references to Imperial Japan.

Sure, Astra Militarum will only get one result, but GW had recognition in common parlance, especially within the "nerd" community. Mention Imperial Guard in a sci-fi conversations, and you stand more than even chances of the other person thinking of 40k Imperial Guard, mention Astra Militarum and they'll say "bless you."

Maybe in the context of mini wargaming. but a lotta people are gonna think the Imperial guard from star wars too

 MajorStoffer wrote:
Soldiers of the Imperium hear me!

So, I am wondering about the general consensus about the health of the Imperial Guard these days - it appears to me the overall health and viability of the Guard is, well, rather low. I'm drawing this conclusion from how most, if not all of the Imperial Guard's niches/specialties have been severely out-done by other codexes, coupled with cripplingly bad internal balance in the 'dex.

A few observations:

Footguard. Dead as a doornail. Increase in anti-infantry firepower through 6th and 7th edition means that even blob squads don't last long. Ignore cover AP5, templates and other super-high volume of fire is so commonplace as to make guardsmen on foot free kills for the opponent. Necrons do a similar playstyle much better with super-high durability which is easily buffed to obscene levels. Skitarii look to offer an Imperial alternative in much the same way, being less durable but much more mobile and with higher firepower.

This has been my preferred playstyle for some time, and it really is just an exercise of removing models.

Mechguard. Traditional powerhouse of the Guard, still most powerful option but acutely out-done by other codexes. Eldar mech is faster, more durable with more reliable, longer-range shooting. Tau are also much more mobile with comparable firepower-per-point (if Devilfish were cheaper, it wouldn't be much of a competition). Chimera suffer from strong rules bias towards skimmers. Still viable against certain armies, but only Marines offer an arguably worse mechanized build in terms of mobility, durability and firepower, aside from those few armies where it is actually impossible.

Armoured. A good gunline, but in an edition where gunlines aren't quite as good as in the past, with a crippling weakness to melee, high mobility armies and Necrons. Leman Russes are cheap AV14 firepower platforms with good guns, but again, the skimmer bias is strong, and the lack of good infantry support means anything which can close will kill a gunline of tanks, and the 6'' max movement means mobility is virtually nil.

No other army has access to as much AV14 as Guard, and could be considered the one real unique capacity, but will lose to objectives quite often, and to a proper competitive build almost every time.

Aircav. the "TFG" tactic of 6th. Guard still has good access to fliers, but as most armies have AA options these days, and with the Vendetta nerfed as a transport leaves the Valkyrie as the only viable transport option. The relative increase in anti-infantry firepower also means veterans when dropped are less likely to accomplish anything of note, and their airborne fire support is greatly reduced against hard targets and other fliers. Still, however, the most viable build for Guard these days, and by far the most mobile, but has a lot of weaknesses which armies are much more capable of defeating than during its heydey in the early stages of 6th.

Aside from the main "builds" being less effective across the board, some have been completely removed or remain non-viable due to horrid internal balance. Stormtroopers, Ogryns/Bullgryns, all the SC's getting axed/nerfed, Ratlings (I actually liked them in 5th, but the heavy sniper nerfs? not anymore), Taurox, Hydra, Platoons, Commissar Lords, Commisars vs Priests. The book's a mess, awash with useless units and only a handful of decent ones; Pask Punisher, Vets in transports, non-ordnance Russes, Wyverns and...well that's kind of it.

What I would like to hear is what people have found to "work" with the Imperial Guard these days? With so few buffs, plenty of nerfs and no formation love from GW, the Guard barely function in a friendly environment anymore, nevermind against more competitive players. Almost everything they can do is done better by someone else, leaving only semi-effective, but exceptionally boring gunlines with will be out-gunlined by most other armies.

The combo of exceptionally bad fluff-builds, and only one, maybe two viable strong builds with huge weaknesses just makes it exceptionally disheartening to play the Imperial Guard these days, and considering the complete vanishing of Guard armies locally, I know I'm not alone.

I've been trying to run IG in 7th, but they're really not very good.

Tournament results bear this out fairly well. They make good "niche fillers" as allies for other armies, but as an army of their own they simply don't function very well.

The core game mechanics heavily favor skimmers over non-skimmer vehicles, and IG are largely reliant on exactly the type of vehicle that the core game rules make easiest to remove, medium AV11/12 non-skimmer vehicles. Meanwhile, the basic Guardsmen is only useful on a table if blobbed in a unit of 30-50 with a Fearless priest and a ton of upgrades. IG heavy weapons units largely remain as bad as they've ever been since the 3E reboot, being amongst the most expensive and least cost effective heavy weapons units in the game, while also largely being the easiest to kill and remove, especially with the increasing amount of Ignores Cover weaponry and multi-shot high BS and twin linked S6/7 guns (or, in the case of Eldar, all of these with the Wave Serpent).

IG have very little in the way of speed to deal with Maelstrom missions or some of the more absurdly fast units like Flyers, FMC's and Eldar Jetbikes.

Meanwhile, damage reduction in many other armies has dramatically increased (Jink, RP, Shrouded, increased T, etc) and IG firepower hasn't changed since 2009.

The AM book wasn't really much of an update. it just took out a grip of character and artillery, lowered costs on some Leman Russ tanks and upped costs on other units (Chimeras, Hellhound variants, flyers, infantry platoons and command squads) and largely left the big holes right where they were.

Really, the only thing IG have going for them is Wyverns, and even those usually only shine in dual-CAD lists.

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 MajorStoffer wrote:
FW keeps my love for the Guard alive, but what they produce is ultimately limited to support units; even their alternate lists are predicated upon the core rules and GW conception of Guard, and that FW doesn't want to offer a flatly superior choice, hence the Korps, Elysians and D-99 being very, very specific armies, good at one thing and that's about it with lots of weaknesses built-in.

I'll see your Kreig and raise you an AC list. Cheap Russess as a troops choice, armored IG Orders, and vets all get tank hunter with cheap vendettas.

The Armoured Battlegroup lists still uses the old 2009 points costs for all the Leman Russ tanks. I've run the army several times, but it's honestly not really all that good, particularly with just how vulnerable the army as a whole is to some of the very common CC units the game has now that can make base contact reliably turn 2 and effectively auto-kill anything they make base contact with, like Wraiths, TWC's, Bikers, etc.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
When you add forge world to imperial guard they become ungodly good. And all you need really is a single blob squad onot a skyshield landing pad.

There's some good stuff, but nothing that puts them on par with anything like Necrons, Daemons, or Eldar.

The name of the game in 7th is Skimmers, T5, FMC's, and Speed, of which IG largely has none.

BrianDavion wrote:



Maybe in the context of mini wargaming. but a lotta people are gonna think the Imperial guard from star wars too

Honestly, as something of an avid nerd, I've never ever equated imperial guard to Starwars. Stormtroopers? Absolutely, but Imperial Guard? Never.

I mean I know there are guys with that name in the Starwards franchise.. But I actually had forgotten about them until you just mentioned them (at which point it came swimming back to me).

Yeah, I don't think the Empire's forces in Star Wars are ever called Imperial Guard. Overall, GW's obsession with changing the easily recognized names for awkward sounding psuedo-latin, purely so they can copyright it, is just really dumb and makes the game seem more inaccessible to newcomers. I think the fact that everyone still calls stuff Imperial Guard almost nobody uses the new names is a pretty good indicator of how dumb it is.

In regards to guard and maelstrom, place one of your objectives close to two long edges in opposite corners, one in the center outside of any area terrain. This will give you at least one home objective, one to unload on if someone claims it, and one to lob long range ordinance at. From there, board control. Move forward as fast as possible (mech vets, and blobs with "move, move, move!" Or "Forward, for the emperor!")

The enemy will only be able to place their objectives in similar places, giving you the opportunity to hold multiple objectives in your deployment zone. The guard should be able to utilize the vastly disparate ranges available to them, and if you are holding 3-4, objectives with 10- 20 man fearless objective secured units, statistically you should win the game.

The main thing going against the guard is the amount of str7 multi shot weapons on the competitive scene right now, with the eldar on the horizon, we can all hope the serpent shield gets a kick in the teeth.

 fallinq wrote:
Yeah, I don't think the Empire's forces in Star Wars are ever called Imperial Guard. Overall, GW's obsession with changing the easily recognized names for awkward sounding psuedo-latin, purely so they can copyright it, is just really dumb and makes the game seem more inaccessible to newcomers. I think the fact that everyone still calls stuff Imperial Guard almost nobody uses the new names is a pretty good indicator of how dumb it is.

It's not their forces at large. You know those kind-of-but-not-really Stormtroopers you only ever see near the emperor? The ones who are in red and have those robes?

Pretty sure those guys are called Imperial Guard in the SW universe.

 morganfreeman wrote:

 fallinq wrote:
Yeah, I don't think the Empire's forces in Star Wars are ever called Imperial Guard. Overall, GW's obsession with changing the easily recognized names for awkward sounding psuedo-latin, purely so they can copyright it, is just really dumb and makes the game seem more inaccessible to newcomers. I think the fact that everyone still calls stuff Imperial Guard almost nobody uses the new names is a pretty good indicator of how dumb it is.

It's not their forces at large. You know those kind-of-but-not-really Stormtroopers you only ever see near the emperor? The ones who are in red and have those robes?

Pretty sure those guys are called Imperial Guard in the SW universe.

Oh yeah, those guys. I actually forgot about them. Given that they're a rather minor part of the Star Wars universe, I wouldn't say they have more name recognition that 40k IG.

 fallinq wrote:

Oh yeah, those guys. I actually forgot about them. Given that they're a rather minor part of the Star Wars universe, I wouldn't say they have more name recognition that 40k IG.

Not a fan of the EU are you?

I've read/watched/played at least 95% of the EU, and I can comfortably say that the Imperial Guard are an extremely small and niche part of the universe. There's like, one single comic line and a Timothy Zahn duology focused on them.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I've read/watched/played at least 95% of the EU, and I can comfortably say that the Imperial Guard are an extremely small and niche part of the universe. There's like, one single comic line and a Timothy Zahn duology focused on them.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Emperor%27s_Royal_Guard

Might want to read up then, there's a bit more about them then that.

Either way it seems IG is pretty much in the case with CSM, everyone else is getting special rules.

Yep, lots more new special rules/abilities, while at the same time the units and weapon types that the IG are really built around are the type of thing that the current set of core rules do not reward.

Sadly for IG's various style's quite a bit would need to be changed to make it in line with others I mean even the basic and the elite are kinda poor and would need various things.

You've got a cruddence codex, you've got poor abhumans (ratlings, what are those again?), poor elites (Stormtroopers! Wait no), Poor fast attack (Pfft Horses!), and your various things are pretty much your old staples of 5th but worse. (Tanks tanks chimera's hope for the best).

They are supposed to represent the "base" medium of the setting, but the problem is they aren't cheap enough for it, and overall aren't really worth it. It's like the CSM codex except they were released two years after the fact.

At least kick hot-shot lasguns up to S4

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I've read/watched/played at least 95% of the EU, and I can comfortably say that the Imperial Guard are an extremely small and niche part of the universe. There's like, one single comic line and a Timothy Zahn duology focused on them.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Emperor%27s_Royal_Guard

Might want to read up then, there's a bit more about them then that.

Either way it seems IG is pretty much in the case with CSM, everyone else is getting special rules.

Nothing in that article clashes with what I said. And for the record, I own every game, comic and novel listed in the source section of it.

I'll admit that the first time someone told me 'Imperial Guard' I pictured these guys, as opposed to Star Wars.

Also, if have a new good list. The horse list. Observatory death riders back by allied ig. They had and take objectives, and are pretty cheap.

Eh, DKoK Death Riders aren't really good at holding anything, they're really "fire and forget" units more than anything else. Good against some things, but very easily removed and worthless after their initial charge. They are better than codex Rough Riders though.

If you play smart with them they can be difficult to remove.

Do you have a particular formula for keeping them alive? I mean, really, they're W2 Carapace vets for twice the points of a Carapace vet. There's nothing about them that's extremely inherently survivable on a 7E table. I've been using them for almost two years with the Assault Brigade list, and I'm happy if they even just live to get off a charge..

Ruins typically with the officer giving the dig in order.
but their point isn't to get a charge off, it's to hold ogjectives.you use artillery to kill of their main threats. Lots of los terrain too, like any good tournament table should have.

That'll give them a 3+ cover save, sure, which under some circumstances isn't bad, I'll grant, but relies a whole lot on having ruins where you need it to be, having an officer unit nearby, and getting off the order on Ld8. That's very situational and not at all impossible to work around, and if anything gets into combat with them, they're probably going to fold quickly.

There's also a grip of relatively common weapons/methods that will still wound them on 2's, inflict ID on them, and ignore their armor, cover, and FNP.

True, buts it's also msu spam, you cantake just one them with a single unit. Take like four and just run them around.
it's difficult, but I kinda made it work for an itc game

The Death Riders are better than Carapace Veterans for holding objectives and equivalent in points. 85 points for 10 wounds with 4+/6++, versus 75 points for 10 wounds with 4+. You get a lot for that extra 10 points, in fact about the only advantage footslogging Vets have over Death Riders is that Vets can take 3 special weapons. Don't forget the Death Rider Command Squad, which for an extra 15 points becomes a Junior Officers (for that Dig In! +1 cover save order). Of course as I allude to by specifying 'footslogging' Vets, the Vets are in my opinion worse in themselves, but can play in different ways which can make them usefully adaptable between games.

The good thing is that the Death Rider Squadron detachment which gives them Objective Secured has no compulsory Troops tax.

Keep in mind that the Carapace Vets aren't losing 2 wounds to every failed save against an S6+ weapon (what the DR's also don't get their 6+FNP against). Honestly, the biggest thing is the DKoK morale special rules, far more than anything else.

That said, neither unit is exactly particularly spectacular at holding objectives

So, as it is with most great thoughts, I remembered something while in the shower as a good comparison between standard guardsmen and a guard-equivalent: The Solar Auxilia; the semi-elite equivalent in the Horus Heresy spinoff by Forgeworld. Veterans have their uses, and the problem lies less in themselves than the army around them, but few can argue standard guardsmen really aren't worth it anymore, especially "improved" variants from FW which are more expensive.

The Solar Auxilia, however, in particular the standard Lasrifle Section is excellent fodder for comparison, as they are the same ppm and fill a similar niche; basic line troops who form the "base" of your army, whether mechanised, gunline or whatever.

So, what do these dudes do to the uninitiated?

BS/WS3 S3 T3 W1 Sv 4+ Ld 8. Carapace armoured guardsmen, in effect.

BUT, unlike guardsmen they have rules and wargear which reflect their role, but DO NOT have orders.

BS2 Snapshots, WS4 when in base-to-base, can re-roll failed leadership when within 6'' of members of the same "Tercio" (platoons with three different unit types; the lasrifles, a 10-man flamer unit and pseudo-veterans, no "PCS" equivalent, single sergeant upgraded to Troop Master with better stats, extra wound). Their "Lasrifles" have two fire modes by default: Rapid Fire 30'', Heavy 2 36'', can not buy special weapons of any kind, but can for 25 points for the squad gain an extra firemode which is basically a single-shot 18'' multilaser shot with a small chance of "burning out" and being unusable, and can not be fired every turn.

So, then, what do these guys offer? Slightly more durable guardsmen with better leadership, especially when deployed as full tercios who offer long-range but individually weak firepower, with an "oh gak" firemode for MCs and big nasties for a notable price (the upgrade is 25% of the unit's original price), with their other platoon options offering real, viable choices (unlike HWTs, for instance, and SWS are a pale shadow of Veterans). Oh, and their dedicated transport is a Malcador-chassis vehicle which can be almost as hard to kill as a wave serpent, and can opt to half its capacity to 10 for a demolisher cannon (!) as its primary armament, or instead buy an Aegis Defense Line as its "dedicated transport"

Now these guys are clearly balanced around the HH environment, but they offer a clear example how with a few tweaks you could make an attractive basic infantry. The Skitarii "Everything has its own special rule" approach isn't what I'm angling for here, but a few examples of mechanical "uniqueness" would go a long way to making Guardsmen a lot more viable.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Keep in mind that the Carapace Vets aren't losing 2 wounds to every failed save against an S6+ weapon (what the DR's also don't get their 6+FNP against). Honestly, the biggest thing is the DKoK morale special rules, far more than anything else.

That said, neither unit is exactly particularly spectacular at holding objectives

Yeah, I'm certainly not claiming that Death Riders are excellent objective holders over multiple turns, but I think that with their frag grenades, lances, ObjSec and 12" movement you can certainly expect a couple of turns of objective scoring with them. Where they shine most is steal an objective from an enemy unit already holding it. Then they get targeted and die. I don't use mine with the expectation of lasting the whole game (although you might be surprised by the number of times they do), but I expect them to grab a couple of objectives early on, counter charge to buy my artillery an extra turn of shooting, and neuter any units like drop-podding Sternguard or 3+ save monstrous creatures which thought it would be a good idea to get close.

 God In Action wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Keep in mind that the Carapace Vets aren't losing 2 wounds to every failed save against an S6+ weapon (what the DR's also don't get their 6+FNP against). Honestly, the biggest thing is the DKoK morale special rules, far more than anything else.

That said, neither unit is exactly particularly spectacular at holding objectives

Yeah, I'm certainly not claiming that Death Riders are excellent objective holders over multiple turns, but I think that with their frag grenades, lances, ObjSec and 12" movement you can certainly expect a couple of turns of objective scoring with them. Where they shine most is steal an objective from an enemy unit already holding it. Then they get targeted and die. I don't use mine with the expectation of lasting the whole game (although you might be surprised by the number of times they do), but I expect them to grab a couple of objectives early on, counter charge to buy my artillery an extra turn of shooting, and neuter any units like drop-podding Sternguard or 3+ save monstrous creatures which thought it would be a good idea to get close.

I think they are just too expensive for their utility. They aren't bad, but they aren't particularly good either. The issue is anyone who knows what Death Riders are knows that they should just neuter them at a distance. And it isn't hard to do so.

They should really get Scout and a point or two off their price. Like 75 base 90 command. We are the only guys who doesn't get a bonus T for being mounted and it is BS, but if we were cheaper I would be okay with just the two wound thing. Scout would really help them not only get into position, but also get to cover to avoid a first turn alpha strike. They could also utilize outflank as well.

Regular Rough Riders should get 2W and the same. Turning them into a platoon with a command squad would be nice as well. It would really turn the unit around into something useful instead of being a joke.

I played an 1850 point list recently, with the strategy of using many vehicles, surrounded by infantry to provide cover saves to the tanks, prevent them from being assaulted, but also able to roll as one big blob towards the centre before splitting apart to chase down other objectives. Admittedly, my infantry were exposed and apt to die in droves, but because my opponent was using such an elite list, he didn't want to focus his units' firepower on the infantry that had such little damage output. Their very crappiness kept them alive!

I actively placed my objectives near the centre of the board and ground forward for 3 turns until I was on top. Since all of the Vehicles had intervening models for cover saves, and I lead with a pair of Russ, things survived pretty well. I focused on trying to have as many High Strength weapons with 36" + range as I could, so that once I got to the middle, I could reach out and touch anything that I needed to.

It worked very well! I had my first victory against "White Scars with a Knight", which was pretty exciting. It's a departure from the way I used to play, and runs contrary to the traditional wisdom of keeping as much distance between yourself and your opponent as possible... but with all of your firepower able to support each other, my opponent remarked that he was afraid to approach! With the space of my infantry surrounding my tanks, the bikes weren't able to get close enough for melta shots to be as effective as he'd like, and assaulting an infantry squad simply led to my "netting" them by surrounding them with a different infantry squad, pinning them in place and allowing me to gain LOS with many units.

Once I reached the centre, I had a unit of Vets in Chimera continue forward to support some Scions I had dropped in, as well as a Vendetta with PCS to secure a "deep" objective. The central bulk held an objective, and provided fire support.

The infantry continued to "net" a SM Biker Librarian [Invisibility] with a Biker Chapter Master Smash-face, preventing them from making meaningful progress towards the central objective.

On the whole, it worked very well. Keep your eyes open for an updated list in the forum!

I'm still quite fond of foot guard, I run a blob of 50 guardsmen with 5 power axes on the seargents, a priest and an inquisitor with servo skulls and rad grenades. It's pretty tough and only rocks in around 400 or so points. The obligatory PCS can be given flamers and ride in a vendetta.

I like to take a couple of eradicators (sooo cheap) to ride with pask for cleaning out lines of fire warriors etc.

My group is neither power-game central nor fluff all-stars, and my IG seem to do just fine, except against Eldar.

Same here, I haven't been having many problems w/ my IG. We're probably middle of the road as far as competitiveness goes. I usually have pask pun w/ exec, 2 chimeras of vets, 2 vendettas, and a wyvern (buying a second soon, I've been loving this thing) as my go to units, when I run my guard lists.

I just wish they didn't cut so many special characters.

 Ol'Dirty wrote:
Same here, I haven't been having many problems w/ my IG. We're probably middle of the road as far as competitiveness goes. I usually have pask pun w/ exec, 2 chimeras of vets, 2 vendettas, and a wyvern (buying a second soon, I've been loving this thing) as my go to units, when I run my guard lists.

I just wish they didn't cut so many special characters.

Guard very much were in the 5th edition mold of "variation through emblamatic characters." Al-Rahem and Creed had unique orders and means of getting troops up the field, Chenkov had "Men, I need more men!" Harker made for one expensive but powerful veteran squad and so on. Several of these characters still exist, but have lost their trademark abilities (Harker is now a 55 point heavy bolter, for instance). While other codexes have lost the dependence on characters, they have gained some other means of customization or flexibility. Chaos can use marked generic HQs for Cult troops, Marines have chapter tactics, BA, Tyranids, Necrons, Space Wolves and, to a lesser extent, Orks, have formations or alternate FOC to build in different ways.

Guard? Nothing. Horrid internal balance, no real strategy-altering capacity, no alternate FOC, 2 mostly worthless formations and no promise of any sort of shakeup in the forseeable future. Tyranids got a gak book, but at least they got plenty of post-release support (ignoring the cost of said post release support.....).

By the way a lot of the codex got formations or supplements is there a plan for an IG one ?

http://bloodofkittens.com/formation-compendium/

The reality is that the IG/AM codex got hit by the legal bat. Everything uncopyrightable was removed.

It is a codex designed to be taken as Allies to another codex.

No dataslates, two pathetic formations.

Acres and acres of history ignored.

We lost so much, and gained so little.

Don't forget that they neglected to fix almost any of the poor internal balance issues, nerfed a grip of stuff just weeks before 7th because of performance in 5th, and pretty much all the new stuff was superfluous and not what anyone was really looking for

I'm not sure that all o this is fair. Sure, we may not have the most OP codex out tere, but that doesn't mean you are doomed to boring games where your opponent wipes the floor with you. The blobs are still very good at outlasting your opponent's troops, ad if you give a first rank fore order to a blob of fifty, you that's at least 100 shots, of which on average 50 will hit. A unit of 12 fire warriors (I'm using that example as everyone seems to think tau are a big competitor) will than have to make 25 saves. At 4 up saves, that's 12.5 failed saves, and one dead unit. And if you want a more long lasting unit, with increased firepower and mobility, go for vets in chimeras. One build you coukd use is having a HB on the vets, and two HBs on the chimera. That will shred eldar or tau infantry. Or take plasma or melta vets. Yes its more expensive, but very effective. Onky a week ago, the one melta I took in a unit of vets blew up a land raide on its first shot. The unit died to the assault terminators who got out, but they were stranded in the middle of the board at turn four. With no ranged capability and most of my army on the far side of the board, they were then useless. And tahts just two things you could do. There is still the artillery, Wyverns and Basilisks are both amazing at killing light infanty and MEQs respectiveley. Then there are the tanks, the eradicator being ridiculously cheap and having the ultimate light infantry killing gun. Then there is the basic russ for MEQs or just the executioner, which will kill almost anything out there. The elites section is, ill admit, pretty bad except for the slabshield bullgryns that can be combined with an ADL to give super cover saves. Or just as a extra cover save for an an avancing horde of infantry and tanks, with the tanks getting the most out of it. The vendetta is very good at killing tanks, and can drop a PCS that has been decked out with 4 flamers, meltas or some other alternative taht works well at killing things. Then there are all the cool extra HQ choices that aren't actually HQ slot fillers. And dont forget the power of orders that the CCS brings.
Basically, what im trying to say is that we may not have OP lists or cool formations and FOCs, but we arent bad, not by a long shot.

(Sorry if this is horribly spelled)

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
I'm not sure that all o this is fair.

Is pretending that "overpowered cheese" and "dog gak weak" are the only metrics on the scale any more fair?

A bunch of russes with preferred enemy is a good formation imo.

Creeeeed has a point, my vets with the right orders have taken out some big targets. Massed firepower from two squads of veterans combined with bring it down and first rank fire still can do wonders.

Honestly, Sergeants in Veteran Squads need to be able to issue the basic orders.

Aside from Vendettas and Valks, what kind of air power can Guard muster?
Vultures- what are people finding works this edition? Quad MRPs? Twin punishers? Gearing it up for AT?

Avengers- Decent?

What Lightning chassis are available? I know the HH Voss pattern is deadly for both AT and AA work.

How are Hydras?

I never had problems with playing Guard. I think combined arms is the key.
I usually run a list composed mostly of LR Tanks, protected by a small screening force of infantry and backed up by plenty of air support from Vultures and Vendettas. When I have the points to spare, I also add a few assault squads in Valkyries, they can really be amazing as they are sometimes able to easily take out the most powerful units of the enemy.

Also, Deathstrike missiles make for awesome distractions, and if they get to fire they are even more awesome.

Overall, I think that IG infantry sucks, but their weakness is made up for by the amount of heavy armour and powerful flyers you can bring to the battlefield. IG don't have it so bad compared to some other factions *cough*Orks*cough*

 Iron_Captain wrote:
I never had problems with playing Guard. I think combined arms is the key.
I usually run a list composed mostly of LR Tanks, protected by a small screening force of infantry and backed up by plenty of air support from Vultures and Vendettas. When I have the points to spare, I also add a few assault squads in Valkyries, they can really be amazing as they are sometimes able to easily take out the most powerful units of the enemy.

Also, Deathstrike missiles make for awesome distractions, and if they get to fire they are even more awesome.

Overall, I think that IG infantry sucks, but their weakness is made up for by the amount of heavy armour and powerful flyers you can bring to the battlefield. IG don't have it so bad compared to some other factions *cough*Orks*cough*

Honestly, I feel Orks got by better with the new dex more than IG. Ork infantry is still pretty good for the most part. People may rag on Mob Rule but it does its job well, short of Fear tests. Plus we got a whole bunch of formations that help us either blob up even better than guard (Green Tide) or go zoom zoom in your face by T2 (Battlewagon Blitz Brigade). Plus with Painboyz in our units we're even more resilient as a whole than our last book. Internal balance isn't that bad either comparatively, since the only few duds we have are Nobz and Killa Kanz (and even in the case of Killa Kanz its mitigated by Dread Mob) compared to the entire elites slot and the fast attack slot only having the flyers and maybe Armoured Sentinels being the decent choices.

My IG are comfy lately, and I feel like we have way too many options to really complain about them. I can run mech vet lists, a blob lists, several different MSU platoon lists, air cav lists, leman russ heavy lists, reserve heavy lists, superheavy centric lists, and more. Add in IG orders and maybe also MT orders and you can almost never get bored with them. Well, at least I can't. But I'll admit, I'm quite the IG fanboy.

How are Hydras?

Horrible. They got nerfed and no one knows why.

Interestingly, despite people saying the infantry sucks, it's the infantry that kill things in my lists. I can bring russes, but then the good ol serpents just jink and that's that. The fearless lascannon blobs drop a serpent a turn. The vets pressuring elite infantry. I have tried every russ, and they offer more of a support firepower compared to my direct damage from guard blobs/vets. Pask is pretty good, but my main opponent is eldar/de, and webway fire dragons have made me realize how expensive pask really is. But it goes both ways. He barely uses hornets any more since they are one ignores cover order away from death. Add an inquisitor and a priest to a 40 man blob and suddenly wraiths have to consider if it's worth the charge.

Mobility is somewhat an issue. I do use valks and vendettas to drop in units along with scions. I can usually start fights all over the board if I want however.

The only thing I feel guard lack, is support from GW. They took many of the characters, and there is a lack of formations. No new supporting material, just stuff we can ally.

In hindsight, I'm glad they took out some of the characters. I used to use Al'Rahem. Since then I've sold my yucky metal tallarn and now I have all plastic catachans and scions, which let me actually customize things. At the time though, I was a little miffed by it, but It all kinda worked out for me. I'm also glad marbo is gone, he used to show up in every single army (most of which are not catachans btw) and had a really lazy gimmick.

About the formations, I agree that it is a bit lacking. The 10 ogryn formation is dumb, especially since they come in boxes of 3. Though interestingly enough, I never really started hearing complaints about not having formations until the necrons reared their ugly heads.

cnpopo wrote:
I have heard people are not happy with the guard codex but honestly have not experienced this myself. I have had a ton of success playing a mix of tanks and infantry. AV 14 tanks with camo nets behind an ageis gives a 3 plus cover save. Las canon teams with ignore cover orders and throw in a couple wyverns. I honestly feel that this dex has been good to me.

precisely, you are a god.

I usually find that what's killing my AV14 tanks isn't shots coming from across the board where that cover save would matter, its close range melta attacks that often can bypass that cover save, and units like bikers, wraiths, TWC's, etc getting stuck in on turn 2.

Or teleprorting dreadknights that walk up and shove massive swords into yourRusses. But I tabled that army. It had two bloody dreadknights, 2 librarians in terminator armour and 20 terminators. Luckily I had an executioner, plasmas on my vets, an ADL and Tau allies with plasma toting crisis suits. they won me the game by turn 4. Yes it was an allies arrangement, but once again, and I cannot stress this enough, while Guard aren't the best, they most certainly aren't the worst.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Or teleprorting dreadknights that walk up and shove massive swords into yourRusses. But I tabled that army. It had two bloody dreadknights, 2 librarians in terminator armour and 20 terminators. Luckily I had an executioner, plasmas on my vets, an ADL and Tau allies with plasma toting crisis suits. they won me the game by turn 4. Yes it was an allies arrangement, but once again, and I cannot stress this enough, while Guard aren't the best, they most certainly aren't the worst.

wait you killed a Dreadknight? damnit! you're supposed to immediatly conceed the game and complain for the next 2 months on the internet how broken GKs are! don't you know anything sir

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Or teleprorting dreadknights that walk up and shove massive swords into yourRusses. But I tabled that army. It had two bloody dreadknights, 2 librarians in terminator armour and 20 terminators. Luckily I had an executioner, plasmas on my vets, an ADL and Tau allies with plasma toting crisis suits. they won me the game by turn 4. Yes it was an allies arrangement, but once again, and I cannot stress this enough, while Guard aren't the best, they most certainly aren't the worst.

To be fair, that sounds like an army perfectly tailored to defeat that sort of GK army

I like dread knights. I typically feed them guardsmen and then vets can plasma them to death. That's if they waded through monster hunting heavy weapons anyway.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
I cannot stress this enough, while Guard aren't the best, they most certainly aren't the worst.

You are right, you can still win as IG. A lot of people are saying that they are doing fine with their IG. I actually still am doing quite well in my own circle. However, I know I would struggle in a tournament or anything super competitive especially without allies. The how does this unit compare to theirs argument comes to mind. A lot of books have units that do things flat out better than ours. That is okay, but our units aren't really comparatively cheaper to compensate for this. That is not always the best way to measure your codex I know, but it is kind of plain to see that lots of builds are not viable now outside of the friendly setting.

However, the biggest problem with the book is still the terrible terrible internal balance. There are plenty of completely pointless units that were still unchanged last edition or humorously made worse. That is the most frustrating part. And also the watering down of fluff and removal of units was lame. We really kind of ate it in the face like the nids did in that respect.

Haha!

Like Rough Riders. Because having Hunting Lances as "not-specialist" was a problem. That's why they were winning tournaments left right and centre. And that Hydra nobody takes? Take away that jink prevention! It's OP! Captain Al let you get models into the enemy's deployment zone? Pull him! IG will sit in their deployment zone while EVERY other faction can zip around claiming objectives. Make sure their Flyers are very expensive, so they can't play with reasonably priced mobility. And reduce the Transport Capacity on that Vendetta. If they want to fly, they can't be able to hurt things! They'll need to buy Allies, and then realize that their allies are better at winning the game... and then buy a whole army that isn't IG!

I've won a few games with IG in 7th. Very few. I went unbeaten in 6th except for 2 games. The whole system changed, there's no option for defensive play. It's all, "Move forward to claim objectives, since you didn't know what deployment type you'd have, much less which zone is yours, so you couldn't place an objective in your known deployment zone to defend." If you play with a defensive mindset, holding the fort with a gunline so to speak, you wind up with a portion of your army that has to sit and shoot, without an objective to hold. Why would your opponent focus on them, when they can wipe out your slowly advancing units one at a time, until you can't claim objectives? I've had to switch to an entire "slow roll" setup, with infantry screening tanks that are designed to move forwards 6" a turn, towards the board centre. From there, if I have enough left alive to do so, I can split a couple of units off, only because I've actively placed objectives in the middle, and built a force that can move towards them by end-of-game.

Forget Maelstrom. It's a mean joke for Guard. They're soooo slow in an edition that [for once] focusses on mobility. They aren't priced according to how they move, but how they can deal damage. If that won the game, we'd be ok, but it's moving to these objectives that wins, and we're too slow.

So, with the upcoming Eldar rumors (where it looks like they'll be able to outshoot, outmaneuver, and outlast anything an IG army can bring), it'll certainly be interesting to see how things turn out with IG. I think we're going to have a couple more years at least where IG will increasingly resemble their 3E/4E incarnation of "well they're fun for friendly games and that's about it".

So far with the new Eldar rules that we do know of (the insane amount of S6 shots they can put out from their Jetbikes for example) more and more I am happy I am running a Heavy Armor list with x8 Leman Russes at 2000pts. I also plan to run this army out of Imperial Armor Volum #1 Second Edition's Armored Battlegroup to take even more tanks. Really when breaking it down it seems that it will be one of if not the best ways to play IG at least until the new book comes out, our tanks are durable and can put out a good amount of firepower. Tanks like the Exterminator I think especially will be key, S7 TL and with a good volume of shots could do some serious hurt to Eldar Jetbikes, that and Punishers with their high rate of fire.

 Vaktathi wrote:
So, with the upcoming Eldar rumors (where it looks like they'll be able to outshoot, outmaneuver, and outlast anything an IG army can bring), it'll certainly be interesting to see how things turn out with IG. I think we're going to have a couple more years at least where IG will increasingly resemble their 3E/4E incarnation of "well they're fun for friendly games and that's about it".

A shame. I think Guard has the nicest vehicle models in the game. Ah, well, I guess it's time to put on my cone hat and go paint up my Eldar crap.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
So, with the upcoming Eldar rumors (where it looks like they'll be able to outshoot, outmaneuver, and outlast anything an IG army can bring), it'll certainly be interesting to see how things turn out with IG. I think we're going to have a couple more years at least where IG will increasingly resemble their 3E/4E incarnation of "well they're fun for friendly games and that's about it".

A shame. I think Guard has the nicest vehicle models in the game. Ah, well, I guess it's time to put on my cone hat and go paint up my Eldar crap.

Screw That!! This ain't time for some Pansy Ass Eldar Armor son!!!! Get in your tanks and take the FIGHT to the ENEMY!!!

 gmaleron wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
So, with the upcoming Eldar rumors (where it looks like they'll be able to outshoot, outmaneuver, and outlast anything an IG army can bring), it'll certainly be interesting to see how things turn out with IG. I think we're going to have a couple more years at least where IG will increasingly resemble their 3E/4E incarnation of "well they're fun for friendly games and that's about it".

A shame. I think Guard has the nicest vehicle models in the game. Ah, well, I guess it's time to put on my cone hat and go paint up my Eldar crap.

Screw That!! This ain't time for some Pansy Ass Eldar Armor son!!!! Get in your tanks and take the FIGHT to the ENEMY!!!

What was I thinking? Wave Serpents, Scatterbikes and D-Guard are for sissies! Real men drive in Leman Russes!

And this does segway a bit into the topic. I think with moar tanks Guard can work. 40k seems to emphasize mid strength firepower these days and AV14 throws a wrench into that. If not, you will go down with a sweet looking armor of TANKS!

Makes me sad, I just got done with a lot of ig.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Makes me sad, I just got done with a lot of ig.

Don't fret man, trust me taking a lot of tanks does work out pretty well. At 2000pts. I run x8 Leman Russes using Codex Astra Militarium, x2 Tank Commander Squadrons of x3 (one with Punisher Pask and x2 Vanquishers with Lascannons and the other with Vanquisher Tank Commander and x2 Punishrs/Exterminators with Heavy Bolters) with a Primaris Psyker hidden behind each. I then take x2 Independent Demolishers and spam as many Veterans with Grenadiers as possible and add a Vendetta. With this list I have trounced Wave Serpent Spam Eldar, Tau Gunlines, Grey Knight Alpha Strike lists, Ork Hordes and Necron Phalanxes. Lets not give up on IG just yet, instead lets try and find a way to bring the Hammer of the Emperor down on our foes!

Short of edition change, seeing what I've seen of Necrons and a Single Unit from Eldar... IG have tanked till Codex change. Your Russ still have AV 10 / 11 on the rear, and the bikes have mobility to get there. And Jink to shrug off the worst of your shooting. And if they have Witchblades on board, they can Jink and still carve your tanks open.

*soft music, fade to black*

Melodramatic, but for realises. They're getting shelved [competitively] till stupid is over.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Short of edition change, seeing what I've seen of Necrons and a Single Unit from Eldar... IG have tanked till Codex change. Your Russ still have AV 10 / 11 on the rear, and the bikes have mobility to get there. And Jink to shrug off the worst of your shooting. And if they have Witchblades on board, they can Jink and still carve your tanks open.

*soft music, fade to black*

Melodramatic, but for realises. They're getting shelved [competitively] till stupid is over.

Soft music fade to black...meet IRON MAIDENS THE TROOPER!!! I refuse to believe that IG are so bad that they need to be shelved, however I do agree that our options are limited. Taking as many tanks as possible has been the best way so far that I have seen outside of Elysian Drop Troops flyer spam (I had that army and had to sell it because of a surgery). Its not impossible to win, and your lucky a Commissar isn't around to hear you say that!

Buy an ADL and some camo netting? 3+ cover saves will go a long way of stopping all of that rending.

 gmaleron wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Makes me sad, I just got done with a lot of ig.

Don't fret man, trust me taking a lot of tanks does work out pretty well. At 2000pts. I run x8 Leman Russes using Codex Astra Militarium, x2 Tank Commander Squadrons of x3 (one with Punisher Pask and x2 Vanquishers with Lascannons and the other with Vanquisher Tank Commander and x2 Punishrs/Exterminators with Heavy Bolters) with a Primaris Psyker hidden behind each. I then take x2 Independent Demolishers and spam as many Veterans with Grenadiers as possible and add a Vendetta. With this list I have trounced Wave Serpent Spam Eldar, Tau Gunlines, Grey Knight Alpha Strike lists, Ork Hordes and Necron Phalanxes. Lets not give up on IG just yet, instead lets try and find a way to bring the Hammer of the Emperor down on our foes!

I only have infantry, heavy mortars, chimera, and a single russ. And a vendetta.
oh well. Time for ebay.

Eldar haaaate FOMT. Our infantry is our best bet against them honestly, we can put so many heavy and special weapons on the table. Plus we can tailor to many situations with orders, which tanks don't have. IMO, the best thing about russes is that they draw fire off chimeras carrying vets, which are the real damage dealers in my experience.

 ghastli wrote:
Eldar haaaate FOMT. Our infantry is our best bet against them honestly, we can put so many heavy and special weapons on the table. Plus we can tailor to many situations with orders, which tanks don't have. IMO, the best thing about russes is that they draw fire off chimeras carrying vets, which are the real damage dealers in my experience.

Lol, if the rumor is they are going to 4+ it may be good. Heavt bolters and Autocannons.

Honestly, the Eldar crap makes it very clear GW has given up trying to make a sensible game, and so I have given up patronizing them.

However, Forgeworld's head remains firmly located in an area which is not their colon, so I'm cautiously optimistic my Death Korps models and Leman Russ fleet will have a role in the Imperial Army.

When the game is this dysfunctional, having an especially dysfunctional codex is not especially pleasent - it's depressing to the extreme. The power curve keeps going up, the cheese becomes more firmly entrenched, and I'm left with two armies built around a framework which doesn't exist anymore - build a theme, make it reasonably efficient and have fun.

I'm just doing it wrong apparently for GW.

My light infantry regiment sure is viable, except that I am implicitly required to take tanks, blobs, or chimeras all of which go against the playstyle of light infantry.
I might as well start fielding more than the 4 valkyries I already take just to fill in for a lack of firepower.

I hate to be the big'ole downer on the Orders are going to save us parade... but how are you going to hit them? They can dance at 36", and then move out of LOS during the Assaut Phase, like Tau Suits can.

We can fire back with a single heavy weapon, whoopee! I take 5 Scatter Lasers to the Face and, if my opponent rolls poorly, I get to fire back with an Autocannon that doesn't even punch through their armour! Huzzah!

There shouldn't be any JB left in LOS for a Russ to shoot at. If there are, there will probably be only a couple per unit. If we manage to "hit" them they can still jink away half the damage. If you've played vs White Scars, Scars at least have to get up in your range to hurt you. These don't.

If we hide behind an ADL, there's no guarantee that we'll have an objective in our deployment zone, much less two, that we can try to win the game with. If we advance "just a few" units, they'll be picked off by the bikes. Just a depressing exercise in removing models.

 greatbigtree wrote:
I hate to be the big'ole downer on the Orders are going to save us parade... but how are you going to hit them? They can dance at 36", and then move out of LOS during the Assaut Phase, like Tau Suits can.

We can fire back with a single heavy weapon, whoopee! I take 5 Scatter Lasers to the Face and, if my opponent rolls poorly, I get to fire back with an Autocannon that doesn't even punch through their armour! Huzzah!

There shouldn't be any JB left in LOS for a Russ to shoot at. If there are, there will probably be only a couple per unit. If we manage to "hit" them they can still jink away half the damage. If you've played vs White Scars, Scars at least have to get up in your range to hurt you. These don't.

If we hide behind an ADL, there's no guarantee that we'll have an objective in our deployment zone, much less two, that we can try to win the game with. If we advance "just a few" units, they'll be picked off by the bikes. Just a depressing exercise in removing models.

If the eldar filth is as op as it seems, we can just take the sensible option, and not play the cheese mongerers who play an op, anti fun list. We have to remember that this is a social hobby, and the guy who plays the op eldar jetbikes spam will soon find himself lacking opponents.

We are men of the guard damnit! Never lose hope, stand our bloody ground and drive the broken edge of our bayonets up the pansy's filthy
arses! For the emperor!

Not too worried about the new elder. The hard core guys are going to be spamming knights and bikes. We have pretty cheap answers for both. Wyverns should tear up bike units, as should Eradicators since bikes are dependent on that cover save. If memory serves, Jink is a cover save.

For knights we have more heavy and special weapons than they have wounds along with the means to get them there, plus you can equip tanks to take them on as well. Hydras are fairly decent about glancing serpents to death, which funny enough, is about the only thing they are good at.

It is definitely a game of target saturation. He doesn't have the numbers to deal with everything and every unit he loses is a lot of points lost. They have the mobility to hit objectives better than us sure, but cant they survive on the board long enough to win.

Col. Dash wrote:
Not too worried about the new elder. The hard core guys are going to be spamming knights and bikes. We have pretty cheap answers for both. Wyverns should tear up bike units, as should Eradicators since bikes are dependent on that cover save. If memory serves, Jink is a cover save.

For knights we have more heavy and special weapons than they have wounds along with the means to get them there, plus you can equip tanks to take them on as well. Hydras are fairly decent about glancing serpents to death, which funny enough, is about the only thing they are good at.

It is definitely a game of target saturation. He doesn't have the numbers to deal with everything and every unit he loses is a lot of points lost. They have the mobility to hit objectives better than us sure, but cant they survive on the board long enough to win.

Bikes have a 3+ armor save for reasons. Just like Dark Eldar bikes and their 5+ for the low low price of one point less that the Eldar ones.

In all seriousness, this cheesey scatter bike spam isn't really going to be that bad for us as most of our shooting out ranges it. If you drop an earthshaker or a BT plate on them the whole scatter bike unit has to jink which is an expensive unit that is forced to snap shot. It is just dumb because GW has this huge hard on for bikes and keeps making them better and better. And they are not priced comparatively to other armies bikes (SM, DE, Ork are all vastly inferior in terms of price and utility). This is just icing on the poo cake.

The D weapon BS is what you should be worried about. Expensive units are already bad calls unless they have a save (guess who has all of those jinks on all this crap). Right now it looks as if basic infantry will be able to instant kill AV14 Russes and Land Raiders. Turn one 3 Wave Serpents flat out into your lines. Turn 2 drop off 3 units of Wraith guard with template D and eat a 3 vehicles a turn. Climb back in and repeat.

I think that's exactly the point though...

How long will a Wyvern last, when being side-shot by even 5 bikes? Those bikes have 3+ saves, and can typically be spread out such that you only get one hit per blast. So you get 3 hits, and wound 3 times... and two are saved, so you bite a single bike per turn with a Wyvern.

In return, lets imagine that 5 bikes can scoot up and tag you with their Scatter Lasers in the FRONT armour. They'll do 2 HP, most of the time. Now, let's say they get to side armour. That's 6+ HP, enough to off a pair of Wyverns in a squadron, or get one with a 4+ cover save.

Those 5 bikes cost 135 points, and you'll probably see at least 4 units at 1500 points. 540 points is 1/3 of their army. Each unit can easily wipe out an AV 11 vehicle or less EACH TURN so there goes all your transports turn 1. Maybe turn 2, if you're lucky, or took 6 transports. And then your infantry get to eat those shots for the rest of the game. And that's 1/3 of their army. That doesn't even bring the remaining 960 points into the equation.

And there's no competition for slot. These are TROOPS. You could take 30 of them [6x 5-Man] 810 pts, or 54% of your points at 1500. What would you seriously do to handle 6 units of them, when our Wyverns peg 1 model per turn? A Bassie gets 1 or 2 per turn. You run out of HS slots damned fast, and those targets can each be eliminated in a single round of shooting, with next to no threat of retaliation. And then there's the other half of their army to deal with!

Anything that shrugs off 20 S:6 shots per turn is going to need to deal with a Wraith Knight [Gargantuan Creature, no Instant Death] that's going to be rocking "D" weapons. Wraithguard in Serps are rumoured to be getting "D" weapons. If not, Fire Dragons. So what good is your Russ, again? They have everything now. Speed, overwhelming firepower, the ability to simply avoid damage. Ready access to units that will simply dominate the board.

 greatbigtree wrote:
I think that's exactly the point though...

How long will a Wyvern last, when being side-shot by even 5 bikes? Those bikes have 3+ saves, and can typically be spread out such that you only get one hit per blast. So you get 3 hits, and wound 3 times... and two are saved, so you bite a single bike per turn with a Wyvern.

In return, lets imagine that 5 bikes can scoot up and tag you with their Scatter Lasers in the FRONT armour. They'll do 2 HP, most of the time. Now, let's say they get to side armour. That's 6+ HP, enough to off a pair of Wyverns in a squadron, or get one with a 4+ cover save.

Those 5 bikes cost 135 points, and you'll probably see at least 4 units at 1500 points. 540 points is 1/3 of their army. Each unit can easily wipe out an AV 11 vehicle or less EACH TURN so there goes all your transports turn 1. Maybe turn 2, if you're lucky, or took 6 transports. And then your infantry get to eat those shots for the rest of the game. And that's 1/3 of their army. That doesn't even bring the remaining 960 points into the equation.

And there's no competition for slot. These are TROOPS. You could take 30 of them [6x 5-Man] 810 pts, or 54% of your points at 1500. What would you seriously do to handle 6 units of them, when our Wyverns peg 1 model per turn? A Bassie gets 1 or 2 per turn. You run out of HS slots damned fast, and those targets can each be eliminated in a single round of shooting, with next to no threat of retaliation. And then there's the other half of their army to deal with!

Anything that shrugs off 20 S:6 shots per turn is going to need to deal with a Wraith Knight [Gargantuan Creature, no Instant Death] that's going to be rocking "D" weapons. Wraithguard in Serps are rumoured to be getting "D" weapons. If not, Fire Dragons. So what good is your Russ, again? They have everything now. Speed, overwhelming firepower, the ability to simply avoid damage. Ready access to units that will simply dominate the board.

Hellhammer plus Vendettas with drop Vets for Wraithknight now standard IG build.

On a serious note though your, example is a little extreme. We still have cover and range to do the damage we need to neuter a standard army. It still sounds up hill though.

 greatbigtree wrote:
I think that's exactly the point though...

How long will a Wyvern last, when being side-shot by even 5 bikes? Those bikes have 3+ saves, and can typically be spread out such that you only get one hit per blast. So you get 3 hits, and wound 3 times... and two are saved, so you bite a single bike per turn with a Wyvern.

In return, lets imagine that 5 bikes can scoot up and tag you with their Scatter Lasers in the FRONT armour. They'll do 2 HP, most of the time. Now, let's say they get to side armour. That's 6+ HP, enough to off a pair of Wyverns in a squadron, or get one with a 4+ cover save.

Those 5 bikes cost 135 points, and you'll probably see at least 4 units at 1500 points. 540 points is 1/3 of their army. Each unit can easily wipe out an AV 11 vehicle or less EACH TURN so there goes all your transports turn 1. Maybe turn 2, if you're lucky, or took 6 transports. And then your infantry get to eat those shots for the rest of the game. And that's 1/3 of their army. That doesn't even bring the remaining 960 points into the equation.

And there's no competition for slot. These are TROOPS. You could take 30 of them [6x 5-Man] 810 pts, or 54% of your points at 1500. What would you seriously do to handle 6 units of them, when our Wyverns peg 1 model per turn? A Bassie gets 1 or 2 per turn. You run out of HS slots damned fast, and those targets can each be eliminated in a single round of shooting, with next to no threat of retaliation. And then there's the other half of their army to deal with!

Anything that shrugs off 20 S:6 shots per turn is going to need to deal with a Wraith Knight [Gargantuan Creature, no Instant Death] that's going to be rocking "D" weapons. Wraithguard in Serps are rumoured to be getting "D" weapons. If not, Fire Dragons. So what good is your Russ, again? They have everything now. Speed, overwhelming firepower, the ability to simply avoid damage. Ready access to units that will simply dominate the board.

Veterans + chimera + 3 plasma guns + FOMT/BID = profit
That unit is 150 points a pop minimum and you could do camo nets (now it's 165) and use your smoke launchers for a ghetto jink for a turn, until you get into rapid fire range. Seriously, if you take 4 of those guys as troops (600-660) you have a good shot at killing bikes, wraithknights, etc. and you get 8 obsec units in the process. I don't spam that unit, but I always have 1-2 in a list. Plus if you looked into scions, they can deep strike and get to where they can see the outside LOS stuff and as long as they are 24" away from a chimera CCS, they can use FOMT as well.

Guard is very much alive imo, because we have tools for anything with the exception of maybe massed FMCs.

 ghastli wrote:

Veterans + chimera + 3 plasma guns + FOMT/BID = profit
That unit is 150 points a pop minimum and you could do camo nets (now it's 165) and use your smoke launchers for a ghetto jink for a turn, until you get into rapid fire range. Seriously, if you take 4 of those guys as troops (600-660) you have a good shot at killing bikes, wraithknights, etc. and you get 8 obsec units in the process. I don't spam that unit, but I always have 1-2 in a list. Plus if you looked into scions, they can deep strike and get to where they can see the outside LOS stuff and as long as they are 24" away from a chimera CCS, they can use FOMT as well.

Guard is very much alive imo, because we have tools for anything with the exception of maybe massed FMCs.

How are you getting 24" range guns, in a vehicle which can only move 6" if they intend to fire with any accuracy, in range of bikes which can move between 12 and 48 inches and have a gun with a full 12 inches of extra range on yours?

And into rapid fire range? No chance.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 ghastli wrote:

Veterans + chimera + 3 plasma guns + FOMT/BID = profit
That unit is 150 points a pop minimum and you could do camo nets (now it's 165) and use your smoke launchers for a ghetto jink for a turn, until you get into rapid fire range. Seriously, if you take 4 of those guys as troops (600-660) you have a good shot at killing bikes, wraithknights, etc. and you get 8 obsec units in the process. I don't spam that unit, but I always have 1-2 in a list. Plus if you looked into scions, they can deep strike and get to where they can see the outside LOS stuff and as long as they are 24" away from a chimera CCS, they can use FOMT as well.

Guard is very much alive imo, because we have tools for anything with the exception of maybe massed FMCs.

How are you getting 24" range guns, in a vehicle which can only move 6" if they intend to fire with any accuracy, in range of bikes which can move between 12 and 48 inches and have a gun with a full 12 inches of extra range on yours?

And into rapid fire range? No chance.

The board is only but so big. Spending a turn moving 12" and popping smoke will get you into a place where you can probably react to them on the next turn. Kinda how controlling the middle of the chess board lets you react around the rest of it. If they go hide near their board edge, they run the risk (albeit not a huge one, but that's the way I've killed the most necrons so far) of losing 2 guys and running 3d6" off the table. Plus scions deep strike, and our artillery can cover the whole table, so try and hide from that.

You box them into a corner? 48" in one turn to the other side of the board. Honestly, you're not considering the mobility. You're not considering that they can move in the Assault Phase after they shoot, denying return fire.

Chimera Vets aren't going to interact with them. At all. One 5 man squad can do an average of 6 hp to the side armour of a Chimera. So even with a 4+ cover save, you're going to be Wrecked most turns. If the infantry wind up in 4+ cover, they're going to take 5 or 6 wounds from a second squad. There are probably going to be 6 such squads at 1500 points, played at top tier. So a third squad could then wipe the Vets out, typically. So you lose 2 Chimera-Vet units per turn to 810 points. Admittedly, you're only loosing 300 points per turn in such a scenario... but you have no retaliation to that. And at 1500 points, that's 20% of your army.

So that's turn 1... 'cause you're probably in range. Maybe turn 2? Turn 2/3 you lose any other tanks that have side AV of 10, like Manticores, Bassilisks, WYVERNS. Which, for the giggles, a Wyvern is only going to peg an average of 1 Bike per turn, if they aren't in base to base with each other. The flying stand is nearly the size of the small blast, with 2" between them. 5 Bikes do an average of 6 HP to AV 10. They can get to your side arc, don't kid yourself.

And any solution that involves Scions? 5, with 2 Plasmaguns, in RAPID FIRE RANGE can do an average of 3.33 wounds. Jink / other cover saves drop that to a typical 1-2 wounds... if you drop within 9" of them. And then what? Everything moves 12" away, and a Single JB squad wipes the scions in a single round of fire.

And the other half of their army can be dedicated AT, like Wraith Guard or Fire Dragons in Serps. Good luck catching them too!

 greatbigtree wrote:
You box them into a corner? 48" in one turn to the other side of the board. Honestly, you're not considering the mobility. You're not considering that they can move in the Assault Phase after they shoot, denying return fire.

I think geometry is going to disagree with you on that one. If you box them in, they'll have to fly over you to get away, which means 1) they didn't shoot you and 2) they likely landed in range of you anyway. Another thing we have is the outflank d3 units warlord trait, and many units that come with outflank to begin with. If they are within 20" of a board edge, then a banewolf can come toast some of them, or 32" if their armor save drops to 4+ and it's a hellhound instead. Plus with maelstrom missions, they have to come get objective points at some point during the course of the game. I'm not saying it would be easy to deal with them, just that it can be done and it isn't a totally hopeless endeavor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, we could drop CCSs out of vendettas with 4 plasma guns ignoring cover. That's a dead bike squad fosho.

I don't believe that geometry will disagree with me.

If you box them in, you're probably within 12" of them to prevent them being able to move somewhere that LOS isn't blocked. So from there, they have FOURTY-EIGHT inches of movement to find someplace new that is outside of your LoS. And in which the local forces aren't preoccupied with something more immediately threatening. Assuming you made it far enough onto the board to do so... which is pretty impressive.

Outflank is, at best, a 56% chance of being rolled IF you take a Tank Commander AND your list is CAD to gain reroll on the Warlord Trait Table. [2/3 no-outflank on first roll, 2/3 no-outflank on second roll = 44.4% to NOT get Outflank. 100% - 44.4 = 55.6% to get Outflank Trait] Which requires that your Warlord be a Tank Squad.

A near coin-flip to hope for a Warlord trait does not make for sound strategy.

Dropping a CCS from a Vendetta requires that you land within 12" of your intended target. So on a "Hit" that would happen, and maybe half of scatter results? So 67% seems like reasonable odds of landing in range? Now a Ld test [no reroll, no vox] at 83%. We are needing to assume that no one dies to dangerous terrain [2/3 scatter, odds of 5 passed DT tests are 40%, so only happens 33% [Hit] + 27% = 60%] soooo....

0.67 to land in range x 0.60 for everyone to survive x 0.83 for order to be successful = 33% of the time, a drop will work as you desire. You'll be dropping, since a 6" move plus deployment would allow anyone outside of 12" before you started to move away, out of Rapid Fire range. Also, that's 290 points to try to kill 135 points of Bikes... and you can't redo if you fail. You just get shot to death by 5 more JB, since they'll put 5-6 wounds on a squad with a 4+ save most of the time. You don't remain mobile to do so again, so it's a one-way attempt. SO yeah, if you drop and land in range and nobody dies and you pass your order, you've spent more than double your target's value to destroy it. And will likely be annihilated in return, success or failure.

Though, to be fair, the Vendetta will likely survive a pair of 5-man squads shooting at it, if it jinks.

So rather than continually theoryhammering the latest Eldar nonsense...

Who wants to start coming up with ideas for how an "Astra Militarum Crusade" force organization chart could look?

Well, that's more of a proposed rule thing, so probably a different thread?

I don't think anyone bought Ogryns / Bullgryns... they'll need to be part of the core-mation. I mean, Rough Riders could be an alternate, but since I have those I assume it will be Ogryns. Or maybe Psyker Battle Squads? But they were actually popular for a while, so doubtful. What else is gakky in the codex that no-one would buy otherwise...?

 greatbigtree wrote:
Well, that's more of a proposed rule thing, so probably a different thread?

I don't think anyone bought Ogryns / Bullgryns... they'll need to be part of the core-mation. I mean, Rough Riders could be an alternate, but since I have those I assume it will be Ogryns. Or maybe Psyker Battle Squads? But they were actually popular for a while, so doubtful. What else is gakky in the codex that no-one would buy otherwise...?

Ratlings
Stormtroopers
Ogryn
Rough Riders
Heavy Weapon Teams
Bane Wolfs
Basilisks
Hydras
Commissars
Commissar Lords

Take your pick, really.

though, thinking back, Guard really had the whole "formation" thing before anyone else with the platoon structure first really conceptualized in 4th where certain units are bought as company-level support with your command squad - fire support, sentinels, and so on.

There is way to much overreacting going on about the new Eldar Jetbikes and it needs to stop. I have no trouble killing them in this current format and I won't in the next one. I always find it a load of bull when people say that they are always out of range, either you play on the biggest boards in existence or you are not moving properly and accordingly during the movement phase. Let's end all of this lamenting and all the "WERE ALL GOING TO DIE" talk and let's see what we can do to counter it. Time to Nut Up gentlemen and if its an uphill fight I look forward to it!

Now as mentioned the Bikes have a 3+ cover save and a Jink save, so currently what they have now. What I have found that works best against Jetbike Spam is the following:

-Leman Russ Variants: A buddy of mind runs a Saim Hann themed list and he absolutely hates fighting the Leman Russ Exterminators and Punishers that I often field. Accuracy by volume is the key here antiquing two or even three types of these tanks will do a lot of good in handling Eldar Jetbikes especially backed up by Primaris Psykers TL them. People have to remember 270 points for 10 guys is a pretty big investment and will hurt him pretty badly if he loses them. Also against Armor 14 those Scatter Lasers won't be able to do anything.

Wyvern Artillery Tanks: Already mentioned but these guys will do horrible damage to any Jetbike list. with a high volume of shots, insanely cheap points cost and the fact that you could take squadrons of them on top of Shred make it a bad day for them.

Bottom line the Eldar book really has not changed when it comes to issues for Imperial Guard. if you are running infantry swarms order online then you are going to have issues it's just that simple. Time to start investing in armored vehicles to support you and that alone will go a long way in helping deal with the new scatter laser direct.

how do wyverns hurt bikes if the blast template hits 1 dude ?

 greatbigtree wrote:
Well, that's more of a proposed rule thing, so probably a different thread?

I don't think anyone bought Ogryns / Bullgryns... they'll need to be part of the core-mation. I mean, Rough Riders could be an alternate, but since I have those I assume it will be Ogryns. Or maybe Psyker Battle Squads? But they were actually popular for a while, so doubtful. What else is gakky in the codex that no-one would buy otherwise...?

I have two boxes worth of Bullgryn and plan to get more, so watch your tongue!

They're really nice if you take them as part of the "Rampart Detachment" from The Red Waagh! book. +2 to cover saves for friendly models rather than +1.

Wyverns aren't terribly effective against Jetbikes. The Bikes get their 3+ armor save, and have a large enough base and are able to spread out very easily such that Wyverns aren't going to get huge numbers of hits on them.

Leman Russ variants *can* do some things against them, and honestly Exterminators and Punishers will probably be the most effective units against them, but even a Punisher is only killing ~3 a turn with 29 S5 shots, and the Jetbikes outrange it and thus can have at least a couple of turns most likely of engaging and destroying targets before the Punisher can respond.

Yes, there are things that *can* kill the jetbikes, the problem is that they're nowhere near as hard as the Eldar hardcounters to them, which look like they'll be able to be fielded right alongside tons of jetbikes.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 greatbigtree wrote:
Well, that's more of a proposed rule thing, so probably a different thread?

I don't think anyone bought Ogryns / Bullgryns... they'll need to be part of the core-mation. I mean, Rough Riders could be an alternate, but since I have those I assume it will be Ogryns. Or maybe Psyker Battle Squads? But they were actually popular for a while, so doubtful. What else is gakky in the codex that no-one would buy otherwise...?

I have two boxes worth of Bullgryn and plan to get more, so watch your tongue!

They're really nice if you take them as part of the "Rampart Detachment" from The Red Waagh! book. +2 to cover saves for friendly models rather than +1.

Rampart is okay. The problem is though that bullgryns base cost too much per mode and their upgrades are even worse. Rampart is a 500 point formation, which basically just leaves them for high point games. They are only really only good at providing cover saves, which they do nice. In close combat the Bulls are not that effective kill they basically just sit there and take hits, which they don't do quite as well as terminators with shields. Your results vary. They will do well against standard units, but will fold to most of the strong CC units.

In addition, like most things that are expensive the higher the point level of the game the easier they are to get rid of. While 3W and T5 is nice it is easily removed with the right weapons. All you have to do is leverage the right amount of firepower since unlike terminators they don't get a natural invulnerable save or a decent one with the storm shield. Ogryns really need FNP and rending to be competative at their price.

Not to mention that the Ogryns need major Ld crutches or they'll just lose a couple of guys to shooting and run away

 Vaktathi wrote:
Wyverns aren't terribly effective against Jetbikes. The Bikes get their 3+ armor save, and have a large enough base and are able to spread out very easily such that Wyverns aren't going to get huge numbers of hits on them.

Leman Russ variants *can* do some things against them, and honestly Exterminators and Punishers will probably be the most effective units against them, but even a Punisher is only killing ~3 a turn with 29 S5 shots, and the Jetbikes outrange it and thus can have at least a couple of turns most likely of engaging and destroying targets before the Punisher can respond.

Yes, there are things that *can* kill the jetbikes, the problem is that they're nowhere near as hard as the Eldar hardcounters to them, which look like they'll be able to be fielded right alongside tons of jetbikes.

-Why I mentioned a battery of Wyverns because no only is it cheap points cost wise but that puts out 12 small blast templates which cold do a decent amount of damage especially if you can get the Eldar player to clump up accidently by either using terrain or tank shocking them (have done this its pretty hilarious ).

-Yes the Jetbikes outrange the Punishers but if your army is behind a moving wall of armor 14 what are they going to be able to shoot? That is where deploying smartly comes into play and the fact we can field large numbers of tanks easily in our lists can help in keeping our other units alive.

-I understand that the Strength D weapons that the Eldar can bring are intimidating but remember the Wraithknights and Wraithguard already have nasty weapons that can deal with are armor, and similar to how D weapons are now they need a 6 to instant kill whatever they are shooting at. If that is the case then target priority comes into play or even different tank variants to handle the problem. Im not saying that the new Eldar are not strong and that they wont be a difficult army to face, I just am constructively trying to find ways to deal with the upcoming release with the information available.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Not to mention that the Ogryns need major Ld crutches or they'll just lose a couple of guys to shooting and run away

This is true. I didn't mention it because they are fearless with Rampart, but with regular 'Ryns it is another reason their cost is absurd.

gmaleron wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Wyverns aren't terribly effective against Jetbikes. The Bikes get their 3+ armor save, and have a large enough base and are able to spread out very easily such that Wyverns aren't going to get huge numbers of hits on them.

Leman Russ variants *can* do some things against them, and honestly Exterminators and Punishers will probably be the most effective units against them, but even a Punisher is only killing ~3 a turn with 29 S5 shots, and the Jetbikes outrange it and thus can have at least a couple of turns most likely of engaging and destroying targets before the Punisher can respond.

Yes, there are things that *can* kill the jetbikes, the problem is that they're nowhere near as hard as the Eldar hardcounters to them, which look like they'll be able to be fielded right alongside tons of jetbikes.

-Why I mentioned a battery of Wyverns because no only is it cheap points cost wise but that puts out 12 small blast templates which cold do a decent amount of damage especially if you can get the Eldar player to clump up accidently by either using terrain or tank shocking them (have done this its pretty hilarious ).

I mean, you always bring a battery of them

But even then, unless they're really clumped up tight, getting lots of hits can be difficult, and if they can get any sort of LoS to the Wyverns, you're going to lose them very quickly.

-Yes the Jetbikes outrange the Punishers but if your army is behind a moving wall of armor 14 what are they going to be able to shoot? That is where deploying smartly comes into play and the fact we can field large numbers of tanks easily in our lists can help in keeping our other units alive.

That depends a lot on deployment, and if you're having to hide behind your AV14 with everything, that makes it easier for CC units and short range weapons to engage them, and makes them the priority target for AT, meaning you're likely to lose those AV14 tanks faster. This also limits mobility and cedes board control to the opponent, allowing them to use their mobility to the fullest if you're castling up behind the Russ tanks.

-I understand that the Strength D weapons that the Eldar can bring are intimidating but remember the Wraithknights and Wraithguard already have nasty weapons that can deal with are armor, and similar to how D weapons are now they need a 6 to instant kill whatever they are shooting at. If that is the case then target priority comes into play or even different tank variants to handle the problem.

Doesn't need to be a 6 to instakill something. A 2-5 result on the D table can still strip 3 HP's off, and that'll kill any vehicle the IG have. If they have multiple D shots (say, from a unit of Wraithguard), then they're deleting a tank (or a squadron) a turn easily. 5 Wraithguard shooting at a tank will average 9.72 HP's a turn, no matter the AV.

nedTCM wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Not to mention that the Ogryns need major Ld crutches or they'll just lose a couple of guys to shooting and run away

This is true. I didn't mention it because they are fearless with Rampart, but with regular 'Ryns it is another reason their cost is absurd.

Yeah, they really need to go back to being Ld9

Trust me it isn't perfect I know this I just am confident what works against Bike lists now can be utilized against the growing threat of the Eldar Jetbikes and the Eldar themselves that are coming out. . Better IMO then throwing away my favorite army in favor of something else that may do it better, just not in my mentality to give in regardless of the odds.

I'm not saying anyone should just throw out their army and whatnot, just that it has to be recognized that there's likely to be a very real, and very powerful gameplay imbalance that's likely to result in a lot of one-sided unfun games, much like IG in 3E and 4E didn't stand much of a chance against Eldar.

 Vaktathi wrote:
I'm not saying anyone should just throw out their army and whatnot, just that it has to be recognized that there's likely to be a very real, and very powerful gameplay imbalance that's likely to result in a lot of one-sided unfun games, much like IG in 3E and 4E didn't stand much of a chance against Eldar.

So you mean like it is right now?

 Vaktathi wrote:
I'm not saying anyone should just throw out their army and whatnot, just that it has to be recognized that there's likely to be a very real, and very powerful gameplay imbalance that's likely to result in a lot of one-sided unfun games, much like IG in 3E and 4E didn't stand much of a chance against Eldar.

I understand that I just don't think there wont be a counter to the Eldar in this current book or when we get a new one of our own since it seems that GW will be redoing all the books that came out and were made for 6th edition. If not with the Astra Militarium book then I will turn to FW, something tells me an Elysian army with x7 fliers might do the trick...

I think you've misinterpreted my remarks as "quitting". It is simply observing a likely scenario, probable outcomes, that sort of thing. It isn't quitting to realize you probably aren't going to win the lottery. But planning on winning the lottery is not appreciating the odds.

That's my input. I honestly believe this is going to be some utterly imbalanced play until all codices are brought into line with the Necron / Eldar 'dexes. Or an edition change that limits their awesomeness.... though I don't see that happening. I remember at the end of 5th, how utterly powerful BA and GK were. Then 6th rolled out and BA went to the bottom of the heap overnight, and GK became mid-tier.

I don't see the Guard as having a 50/50 chance in a typical game, in which a large chunk of EJB w/ ScLa are involved. They are a hard counter to any strategy we have. That's what I'm saying. Playing against them is going to amount to an exercise in binning models, while being frustratingly incapable of applying much damage in return.

Nobody needs to agree with me. I'm not "giving up". But I don't expect any battle to be "fair". It's going to be more than an "uphill battle". This is going to be an up-mountain battle, sans safety gear. Glory be to the man that makes it to the top, but for the 20 that fail in the same timeframe, don't feel too bad, it's a doomed effort.

 greatbigtree wrote:
I think you've misinterpreted my remarks as "quitting". It is simply observing a likely scenario, probable outcomes, that sort of thing. It isn't quitting to realize you probably aren't going to win the lottery. But planning on winning the lottery is not appreciating the odds.
That's my input. I honestly believe this is going to be some utterly imbalanced play until all codices are brought into line with the Necron / Eldar 'dexes. Or an edition change that limits their awesomeness.... though I don't see that happening. I remember at the end of 5th, how utterly powerful BA and GK were. Then 6th rolled out and BA went to the bottom of the heap overnight, and GK became mid-tier.
I don't see the Guard as having a 50/50 chance in a typical game, in which a large chunk of EJB w/ ScLa are involved. They are a hard counter to any strategy we have. That's what I'm saying. Playing against them is going to amount to an exercise in binning models, while being frustratingly incapable of applying much damage in return.
Nobody needs to agree with me. I'm not "giving up". But I don't expect any battle to be "fair". It's going to be more than an "uphill battle". This is going to be an up-mountain battle, sans safety gear. Glory be to the man that makes it to the top, but for the 20 that fail in the same timeframe, don't feel too bad, it's a doomed effort.

I get that completely man and I ive approached peoples comments with the wrong mentality then that is all on me and my bad. . However as ive mentioned in other threads until we have a full and clear picture of what the entire Eldar book is going to bring we shouldn't be fretting as much over it and instead think of ways to deal with what we do know. That and other armies since Eldar is just one of many opponents!

nedTCM wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
I'm not saying anyone should just throw out their army and whatnot, just that it has to be recognized that there's likely to be a very real, and very powerful gameplay imbalance that's likely to result in a lot of one-sided unfun games, much like IG in 3E and 4E didn't stand much of a chance against Eldar.

So you mean like it is right now?

Well, it's pretty bad, but not quite as bad as 4E

gmaleron wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
I'm not saying anyone should just throw out their army and whatnot, just that it has to be recognized that there's likely to be a very real, and very powerful gameplay imbalance that's likely to result in a lot of one-sided unfun games, much like IG in 3E and 4E didn't stand much of a chance against Eldar.

I understand that I just don't think there wont be a counter to the Eldar in this current book or when we get a new one of our own since it seems that GW will be redoing all the books that came out and were made for 6th edition. If not with the Astra Militarium book then I will turn to FW, something tells me an Elysian army with x7 fliers might do the trick...

That might be, but the problem is that historically IG never really get very good updates, and that's still likely to be quite a while off given that the last IG codex is less than a year old. We're still probably looking at over a year away if not more.

 Vaktathi wrote:


That might be, but the problem is that historically IG never really get very good updates, and that's still likely to be quite a while off given that the last IG codex is less than a year old. We're still probably looking at over a year away if not more.

Yea that is the annoying part. There are just some units you know are going to remain on the shelf for a while because of it. I have a bunch of Ogryns, Bullgryns, some custom RRs, and a hellhound that have spent the majority of their life in a box.

Also Marbo is gone and that is BS.

I was deeply saddened with the passing of our last codex. I loved that book. More than the Doctrines book, even. That book let me play Guard the way I enjoyed. Sigh.

I'd take expensive Russes with cheaper, better Chimera any day.

nedTCM wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:


That might be, but the problem is that historically IG never really get very good updates, and that's still likely to be quite a while off given that the last IG codex is less than a year old. We're still probably looking at over a year away if not more.

Yea that is the annoying part. There are just some units you know are going to remain on the shelf for a while because of it. I have a bunch of Ogryns, Bullgryns, some custom RRs, and a hellhound that have spent the majority of their life in a box.

Also Marbo is gone and that is BS.

Yeah, there's so much that GW has just let pass as terrible for years.

greatbigtree wrote:I was deeply saddened with the passing of our last codex. I loved that book. More than the Doctrines book, even. That book let me play Guard the way I enjoyed. Sigh.

I'd take expensive Russes with cheaper, better Chimera any day.

Oh I'd do the same in a heartbeat. I'd take that old book, with functional hydras, useful Chimeras, cheaper Hellhound variants, etc instead of some cheaper Russ tanks and the Taurox.

I've had great luck with colossus batteries. 240" str6 ap3 ignores cover. I would have a DA librarian with powerfield generator cast prescience on them first turn and blast away. Though even with a 4+ invul save I don't think they will last more than 2 shooting phases against scatterbikes and wraith knights. It's worth a try for us poor IG generals that can't afford 6 vendettas. (Building a tube and putting it on a chimera is pretty easy)

 portugus wrote:
I've had great luck with colossus batteries. 240" str6 ap3 ignores cover. I would have a DA librarian with powerfield generator cast prescience on them first turn and blast away. Though even with a 4+ invul save I don't think they will last more than 2 shooting phases against scatterbikes and wraith knights. It's worth a try for us poor IG generals that can't afford 6 vendettas. (Building a tube and putting it on a chimera is pretty easy)

I am putting together some Earthshaker carriages for a forge world tourney. Basically they are artillery unit types instead of vehicles. The advantage is the gun is T7 4W. It is cheaper. And it is crewed by guardsmen so you can give them orders. Those should be pretty good against JB.

The thing I find interesting about all of this is that if the eldar loose ignore cover serpent shields then the old strategy of GtG behind an ADL and then give your units Get back into the fight orders so you can shoot will become brutal again. Really little to nothing changes as you go from having 2 effective shooting units/senior officer a turn against waveserpents (ignore cover) to having 2 effective units due to GtG/get back into the fight. There is some degree of gain as jetbike units are easier to reduce the firepower of by killing or making them jink.

The real question will still be the same before and after. How do we effectively score. Still not a lot of good answers in the IG codex but at least there are some good allied options.

The problem is they have like 36 min range

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
The problem is they have like 36 min range

Doesn't that mean they just can't subtract their BS from the shot? Or are you talking about the jetbikes?

NedTCM, I like the idea of using carriages with orders.. I mean fire on my target. Actually better than my idea since it would be str9 ap3 so you could hurt vehicles if you wanted.

I just miss doctrines from fourth edition. My entire infantry platoons would infiltrate and it was awesome. Was getting troops closer to the enemy always a good thing? Of course not, but it was fun. I wish doctrines would come back, it would really allow you to customize your army.

Also I was able to give my entire army camo cloaks. Which I made out of green stuff, it was awesome and I cried when the new codex made me rip them all off.

 portugus wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
The problem is they have like 36 min range

Doesn't that mean they just can't subtract their BS from the shot? Or are you talking about the jetbikes?

NedTCM, I like the idea of using carriages with orders.. I mean fire on my target. Actually better than my idea since it would be str9 ap3 so you could hurt vehicles if you wanted.

Yes and no. It means you can't fire indirect, so if the unit is out of LOS and within 36" then you can't shoot at the unit. Given the nature of EJB and their JSJ shenanigans, then maneuvering out of LOS isn't that hard to do for them.

Be sure to use at least two units of earthshaker carriages, deployed on the extreme flanking corners of the board so that their arcs of fire cover one another.

Yeah that is probably the time where eldar drop WG with DE teleport and kill the carriges in one turn, because of D weapons.

Also considering that craftworld eldar is a supplement codex, what will stop the eldar players from taking one seer and some DA in serpents from the main book and another seer and some jetbikes from the new one?

Makumba wrote:
Yeah that is probably the time where eldar drop WG with DE teleport and kill the carriges in one turn, because of D weapons.

Also considering that craftworld eldar is a supplement codex, what will stop the eldar players from taking one seer and some DA in serpents from the main book and another seer and some jetbikes from the new one?

Its not a Supplemental Codex, apparently this book because of the change to rules and such it makes the standard Eldar book and the Iyanden one null and void.

Had anyone considered the use of a Deathstrike missile battery as a somewhat 'soft' counter to jetbike spam? Granted, it may not matter if there are 4 to 6 squads of jetbikes zipping around, but the 10" Blast at ST:10 AP:1 that ignores cover will likely clear a flank at least. Throw camo netting on the Deathstrike and hide it/keep it in cover to help it survive and hopefully fire the missile early.

Just thinking out loud here. Anyone have any additional thoughts regarding the Deathstrike use to slow jet bikes down?

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

 Red__Thirst wrote:
Had anyone considered the use of a Deathstrike missile battery as a somewhat 'soft' counter to jetbike spam? Granted, it may not matter if there are 4 to 6 squads of jetbikes zipping around, but the 10" Blast at ST:10 AP:1 that ignores cover will likely clear a flank at least. Throw camo netting on the Deathstrike and hide it/keep it in cover to help it survive and hopefully fire the missile early.

Just thinking out loud here. Anyone have any additional thoughts regarding the Deathstrike use to slow jet bikes down?

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Deathstrikes are a risky choice, not particularly reliable, usually vulnerable. I probably wouldn't use one against bikedar.

One thing that would work really well I think is an Elysian Drop Troops Air Cav list, you can easily fit x5 Valkyries with Veterans, x2 Vendettas and a Vulture Gunship in the 1850-2000 points range. Trying to handle that many Fliers would be an issue, especially since Scatter Lasers no longer have their TL ability.

 Squidmanlolz wrote:


Deathstrikes are a risky choice, not particularly reliable, usually vulnerable. I probably wouldn't use one against bikedar.

Risky, yes, but does prescience allow for a re-roll on the dice to fire the missile?

Turn one, pop smoke with camo netting on the tank and that confers it a 4+ cover save, keep it in cover/out of LOS to help with vulnerability. Turn two, cast prescience from a Sanctioned psyker and go for the 4+ to fire.

Place template and hopefully wipe out an entire squad of jetbikes on a flank. It's not super reliable, but what in the Guard codex is versus jetbikes, really?

It's the best option I can think of here. Also bonus points for comedic value on top of being moderately effective.

Take it easy for now.

-Red__Thirst-

Don't forget to put a bunch of Bullgryn Bubble Wrap around the Deathstrike!

I suggested as much and was promptly told that it would die turn one. I don't care. I got a Deathstrike today just for the sheer fact of wanting to try this.

Well being that it's the bikes biggest threat it makes sense they would try to take it out turn 1. But it's keeping fire off your other stuff for a little bit.

I was about to suggest scions with volley guns using an ignores cover order but they are only range 24".

Don't feel bad about the death strike, the scatter bikes will take out anything thats a threat to them quick.

 Red__Thirst wrote:

Risky, yes, but does prescience allow for a re-roll on the dice to fire the missile?

Prescience lets you reroll to-hit dice, it has no special rules about deathstrike missiles (unsurprisingly). The only way to reroll the deathstrike launch missile dice is to include fateweaver and use the staff of tomorrow.

 gmaleron wrote:
One thing that would work really well I think is an Elysian Drop Troops Air Cav list, you can easily fit x5 Valkyries with Veterans, x2 Vendettas and a Vulture Gunship in the 1850-2000 points range. Trying to handle that many Fliers would be an issue, especially since Scatter Lasers no longer have their TL ability.

The problem is you're relying on trying to fight half the Eldar army with half your army stuck in reserve, and they can certainly put a huge dent in those forces and maul the rest as they come in, especially if they focus primarily on the infantry and the Vendettas, ignoring the otherwise relatively low threat Valkyries while they can delete the infantry units withe ease and can probably relatively easily deal with the two Vendettas, particularly when there will be more than just Jetbikes in an Eldar list.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
One thing that would work really well I think is an Elysian Drop Troops Air Cav list, you can easily fit x5 Valkyries with Veterans, x2 Vendettas and a Vulture Gunship in the 1850-2000 points range. Trying to handle that many Fliers would be an issue, especially since Scatter Lasers no longer have their TL ability.

The problem is you're relying on trying to fight half the Eldar army with half your army stuck in reserve, and they can certainly put a huge dent in those forces and maul the rest as they come in, especially if they focus primarily on the infantry and the Vendettas, ignoring the otherwise relatively low threat Valkyries while they can delete the infantry units withe ease and can probably relatively easily deal with the two Vendettas, particularly when there will be more than just Jetbikes in an Eldar list.

Its not perfect for sure but back when Eldar Wave Serpent lists were big my Elysians did very well against them thanks to the fact that all my Flyers were zooming and if I ever won the roll off I would go second to make them waste an entire turn of shooting. Coming in from Reserves is helped as well by tossing in an Officer of the fleet and if you want to bring more stuff in on the first turn just take Drop Sentinels or Sentry Gun squads, they are much cheaper and all count toward the "Drop Assault" rule they get. If anything this list got stronger against Eldar on the fact that the Scatter Laser no longer gets Laser Lock, will go a long way and helping me survive until everyone comes onto the table.

 gmaleron wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
One thing that would work really well I think is an Elysian Drop Troops Air Cav list, you can easily fit x5 Valkyries with Veterans, x2 Vendettas and a Vulture Gunship in the 1850-2000 points range. Trying to handle that many Fliers would be an issue, especially since Scatter Lasers no longer have their TL ability.

The problem is you're relying on trying to fight half the Eldar army with half your army stuck in reserve, and they can certainly put a huge dent in those forces and maul the rest as they come in, especially if they focus primarily on the infantry and the Vendettas, ignoring the otherwise relatively low threat Valkyries while they can delete the infantry units withe ease and can probably relatively easily deal with the two Vendettas, particularly when there will be more than just Jetbikes in an Eldar list.

Its not perfect for sure but back when Eldar Wave Serpent lists were big my Elysians did very well against them thanks to the fact that all my Flyers were zooming and if I ever won the roll off I would go second to make them waste an entire turn of shooting. Coming in from Reserves is helped as well by tossing in an Officer of the fleet and if you want to bring more stuff in on the first turn just take Drop Sentinels or Sentry Gun squads, they are much cheaper and all count toward the "Drop Assault" rule they get. If anything this list got stronger against Eldar on the fact that the Scatter Laser no longer gets Laser Lock, will go a long way and helping me survive until everyone comes onto the table.

I didn't think D-99 had access to any Advisors like Officers of the Fleet? I don't see it as an option under the D-99 Command Squad.

I think the loss of Laserlock will be minimal now that the Wave Serpent has been nerfed, most of the other Scatterlaser platforms are either single-weapon, or will be running double-scatter lasers, probably primarily only the Falcon will feel its loss.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
One thing that would work really well I think is an Elysian Drop Troops Air Cav list, you can easily fit x5 Valkyries with Veterans, x2 Vendettas and a Vulture Gunship in the 1850-2000 points range. Trying to handle that many Fliers would be an issue, especially since Scatter Lasers no longer have their TL ability.

The problem is you're relying on trying to fight half the Eldar army with half your army stuck in reserve, and they can certainly put a huge dent in those forces and maul the rest as they come in, especially if they focus primarily on the infantry and the Vendettas, ignoring the otherwise relatively low threat Valkyries while they can delete the infantry units withe ease and can probably relatively easily deal with the two Vendettas, particularly when there will be more than just Jetbikes in an Eldar list.

Its not perfect for sure but back when Eldar Wave Serpent lists were big my Elysians did very well against them thanks to the fact that all my Flyers were zooming and if I ever won the roll off I would go second to make them waste an entire turn of shooting. Coming in from Reserves is helped as well by tossing in an Officer of the fleet and if you want to bring more stuff in on the first turn just take Drop Sentinels or Sentry Gun squads, they are much cheaper and all count toward the "Drop Assault" rule they get. If anything this list got stronger against Eldar on the fact that the Scatter Laser no longer gets Laser Lock, will go a long way and helping me survive until everyone comes onto the table.

I didn't think D-99 had access to any Advisors like Officers of the Fleet? I don't see it as an option under the D-99 Command Squad.

I think the loss of Laserlock will be minimal now that the Wave Serpent has been nerfed, most of the other Scatterlaser platforms are either single-weapon, or will be running double-scatter lasers, probably primarily only the Falcon will feel its loss.

I run my Elysians out of IA3 2nd Edition they have access to Advisors, Vendettas and can actually get Carapace armor (its expensive but it fits my fluff).