The only way to get a message through to the big GW that this is completely unacceptable way to make a codex is to throw up a gak storm. The biggest way to do that? Well show them we won't even play with them. I know I intend to. Many of my players in my local FLGS intend to. Though I need to convince them to ban them from tournaments all together. The more the Eldar players complain and bitch about us complaining and bitching about their so obviously broken and favoritism codex the faster we can wrap this up. It's going to get messy before the end though. These half measures and trying to be "reasonable" with GW and even a certain subset of Eldar players is clearly not working. So it's time to kick things up a notch.
Can I at least get people who will agree to no games with them?
If there are any Eldar players out there with any remorse or guilt for the entire health of the game and 40k scene I implore you to do one of two things. Cheese the ever loving gak out of your codex and get yourself loathed and banned. Or don't play at all. Thanks.
As always the bigger we make this the quicker we'll get an answer.
Thanks. Remember cause mayhem. This Eldar Codex can't be allowed to stand.
I Gamgee swear to throw up a gak storm and use any method possible to get GW attention.
Edit
Since I started this thread and including myself there are four people who will no longer play against Eldar players. All it takes is a little team work. I'll continue to update this.
If I missed your name send me a PM or let me know in the thread and I'll add it.
No need for this. Just stop buying the OP models. GW isn't going to listen until we cause them a LOT of monetary loss. Boycott would-be a better course
raiden wrote: No need for this. Just stop buying the OP models. GW isn't going to listen until we cause them a LOT of monetary loss. Boycott would-be a better course
Statistically speaking boycotts almost never work. Only throwing a gak storm causes people to pay attention. There's been a few studies showing this. Although if we throw a gak storm AND boycott even better. Why bring a knife to a fight when you can bring a knife and a gun.
Was already planning on not playing them on pure principal. Feel bad for the longtime eldar players, but the bottom line is I just wouldn't have fun against this book, and fun is why you play a game.
Desubot wrote: I would figure best way is to make em lose investors until they ether change for the better or burn out and close up shop....
they seem to be doing a lot of that by them selves lol
Their shareholders are all hedge funds and...Mr.Kirby (hence why GW has a very odd history of doing things like *borrowing* money to pay dividends).
GW's investors therefore pretty much only see it as either a diversification fund or a cash-cow to milk dividends. Nobody really has a vested interest in the long term return, and unless there's a *massive* change in share price, it won't matter too much
Eldar have almost always been at the upper echelons of power in 40k (Yes I know they were briefly weak in 5th)
How anyone there thought this would be something you can release is beyond me. This is 7th Fantasy Daemons bad.
It's funny too because I just bought the 6th book a couple weeks ago to ally with Harlequins and was upset I bought it with a new one around the corner.
Who would have thought I bought the tame balanced one...
I started a whole thread under Tactics about how to play Eldar in a friendly manner with the new codex. The gist of it is that if you don't use the ridiculously unbalanced units, Eldar are much more manageable for the opponent, and the Eldar player will come away knowing that they were responsible for the outcome of the game, not the stupid rules some units now possess.
There's plenty of stuff in the book that seems reasonably balanced. As long as you avoid jebikes, wraithknights, wraithguard, and probably four or five other units, it's probably a pretty fun book.
DarkLink wrote: There's plenty of stuff in the book that seems reasonably balanced. As long as you avoid jebikes, wraithknights, wraithguard, and probably four or five other units, it's probably a pretty fun book.
Desubot wrote: I would figure best way is to make em lose investors until they ether change for the better or burn out and close up shop....
they seem to be doing a lot of that by them selves lol
Their shareholders are all hedge funds and...Mr.Kirby (hence why GW has a very odd history of doing things like *borrowing* money to pay dividends).
GW's investors therefore pretty much only see it as either a diversification fund or a cash-cow to milk dividends. Nobody really has a vested interest in the long term return, and unless there's a *massive* change in share price, it won't matter too much
If there was a boycott which actually had a customer majority committed to it and it lasted long enough (including hopefully going over a major release such as Space Marines) to impact their financials then it could work. But then again, GWs definition of a good year is one which ignores that years financial numbers, so we might need a boycott to last several years before they get the picture
Eldarain wrote: Eldar have almost always been at the upper echelons of power in 40k (Yes I know they were briefly weak in 5th)
How anyone there thought this would be something you can release is beyond me. This is 7th Fantasy Daemons bad.
It's funny too because I just bought the 6th book a couple weeks ago to ally with Harlequins and was upset I bought it with a new one around the corner.
Who would have thought I bought the tame balanced one...
What's worse is that this isn't even the first time they've done this with Eldar. The 3E reboot was in large part because of the 2E Eldar codex.
But I wouldn't want to play BA if I couldn't take Death Company, Sanguinary Gurad, Fragiosos and Assault Pod squads.
It seems completely harsh on Eldar players. But Orock is right about the fun aspect. I couldn't refuse to play against my good eldar mate, although he wouldn't be a douche with the new units. Other Eldar players though I can't necessarily count on, as I don't know other Eldar opponents well enough.
Mindstrike1 wrote: Wow, good job. Instead of getting better at the game you would rather just cry about it.
Well, thou who art the most skilled so as to judge the talents of those they have never met at but a glance of their postings on forums, how do you propose to counter troop choices who, point for point, outshoot Fire Warriors, are faster, tougher and have a longer range?
If there was a boycott which actually had a customer majority committed to it and it lasted long enough (including hopefully going over a major release such as Space Marines) to impact their financials then it could work. But then again, GWs definition of a good year is one which ignores that years financial numbers, so we might need a boycott to last several years before they get the picture
If there was a boycott which actually had a customer majority committed to it and it lasted long enough (including hopefully going over a major release such as Space Marines) to impact their financials then it could work. But then again, GWs definition of a good year is one which ignores that years financial numbers, so we might need a boycott to last several years before they get the picture
Don't like my Eldar? Stay off my tables then. If this is your stance on Eldar than I do not want to play against you using my Astral Claws, Tyranids or even my stupidly weak Chaos list. If you want to take steps to invalidate the army that I spent a few hundred dollars on because of a rule set that is 1) out of my control and 2) not the end of the world, then your group, area and whatever else you get to side with you is not a part of the hobby that I want to be a part of. Reimburse the time and money I put into the army or you can kindly stuff it. You damage the hobby more with this sort of thinking than anything else.
Desubot wrote: I would figure best way is to make em lose investors until they ether change for the better or burn out and close up shop....
they seem to be doing a lot of that by them selves lol
Their shareholders are all hedge funds and...Mr.Kirby (hence why GW has a very odd history of doing things like *borrowing* money to pay dividends).
GW's investors therefore pretty much only see it as either a diversification fund or a cash-cow to milk dividends. Nobody really has a vested interest in the long term return, and unless there's a *massive* change in share price, it won't matter too much
That explains a lot of the problem. Every time a dividend comes due, Kirby does absolutely everything he can to keep the other investors from bailing.
Sounds like they are ripe for a buyout.
ETA: Does anyone here have a list of the investors? Perhaps if we all send letters to them about how bad Kirby is, maybe they will do something.
Gamgee wrote: The only way to get a message through to the big GW that this is completely unacceptable way to make a codex is to throw up a gak storm. The biggest way to do that? Well show them we won't even play with them. I know I intend to. Many of my players in my local FLGS intend to. Though I need to convince them to ban them from tournaments all together. The more the Eldar players complain and bitch about us complaining and bitching about their so obviously broken and favoritism codex the faster we can wrap this up. It's going to get messy before the end though. These half measures and trying to be "reasonable" with GW and even a certain subset of Eldar players is clearly not working. So it's time to kick things up a notch.
Can I at least get people who will agree to no games with them?
If there are any Eldar players out there with any remorse or guilt for the entire health of the game and 40k scene I implore you to do one of two things. Cheese the ever loving gak out of your codex and get yourself loathed and banned. Or don't play at all. Thanks.
As always the bigger we make this the quicker we'll get an answer.
Thanks. Remember cause mayhem. This Eldar Codex can't be allowed to stand.
I Gamgee swear to throw up a gak storm and use any method possible to get GW attention.
Or how about this? You let us use the old hardback codex.
I save invalidating my 24 month old $50 codex for another $58 hardback, and you dont get to see scatbikes or ranged d-weapons. Win win.
SharkoutofWata wrote: Don't like my Eldar? Stay off my tables then. If this is your stance on Eldar than I do not want to play against you using my Astral Claws, Tyranids or even my stupidly weak Chaos list. If you want to take steps to invalidate the army that I spent a few hundred dollars on because of a rule set that is 1) out of my control and 2) not the end of the world, then your group, area and whatever else you get to side with you is not a part of the hobby that I want to be a part of. Reimburse the time and money I put into the army or you can kindly stuff it. You damage the hobby more with this sort of thinking than anything else.
This is exactly the problem with this approach. SharkoutofWata and other Eldar players would be completely screwed over. And they have invested as much into the hobby as the rest of us.
Gamgee wrote: The only way to get a message through to the big GW that this is completely unacceptable way to make a codex is to throw up a gak storm. The biggest way to do that? Well show them we won't even play with them. I know I intend to. Many of my players in my local FLGS intend to. Though I need to convince them to ban them from tournaments all together. The more the Eldar players complain and bitch about us complaining and bitching about their so obviously broken and favoritism codex the faster we can wrap this up. It's going to get messy before the end though. These half measures and trying to be "reasonable" with GW and even a certain subset of Eldar players is clearly not working. So it's time to kick things up a notch.
Can I at least get people who will agree to no games with them?
If there are any Eldar players out there with any remorse or guilt for the entire health of the game and 40k scene I implore you to do one of two things. Cheese the ever loving gak out of your codex and get yourself loathed and banned. Or don't play at all. Thanks.
As always the bigger we make this the quicker we'll get an answer.
Thanks. Remember cause mayhem. This Eldar Codex can't be allowed to stand.
I Gamgee swear to throw up a gak storm and use any method possible to get GW attention.
Or how about this? You let us use the old hardback codex.
I save invalidating my 24 month old $50 codex for another $58 hardback, and you dont get to see scatbikes or ranged d-weapons. Win win.
I would play serpent shields any day of the week over this monstrosity. Completely valid solution! Just ban the new dex, not eldar as a whole.
That is more or less the solution for any army -- or player -- that a player doesn't like. Play against something else.
It absolutely is. And I have no problems if someone looks at a list I make or if I look at someone else's list and says 'that does not look like fun for me' or 'that doesn't look like something my army can handle' and turning down a game. But this 'Operation Pitchfork' ridiculousness is taking it to a disgusting extreme and a player that blanket bans an army, any army, because of a new codex is simply not someone that I want to spend two hours of my life throwing dice with no matter what army I bring instead of Eldar.
SharkoutofWata wrote: Don't like my Eldar? Stay off my tables then. If this is your stance on Eldar than I do not want to play against you using my Astral Claws, Tyranids or even my stupidly weak Chaos list. If you want to take steps to invalidate the army that I spent a few hundred dollars on because of a rule set that is 1) out of my control and 2) not the end of the world, then your group, area and whatever else you get to side with you is not a part of the hobby that I want to be a part of. Reimburse the time and money I put into the army or you can kindly stuff it. You damage the hobby more with this sort of thinking than anything else.
I get where you are coming from. But asking other players to reimburse you before you'll play one of your other armies? That seems kind of odd. Eldar are broken. It is not our fault. Asking for money to keep your broken list off the table isn't really fair, is it?
If it's your table, then you can do what you like with it. At the FLGS? Not your table.
"Sorry all you Eldar players who paid 70 dollars for your codex and spent hundreds upon hundreds of dollars building your army over the course of a decade, you're not allowed to use it at our tournament because of factors entirely beyond your control."
Right. Because that isn't going to alienate huge swaths of the player-base just as much as Eldar sweeping the tables would.
Yeah at my local club they are doing a "narrative" based campaign and despite restrictions and pleas from the organisers its increasingly clear that most of the players are going to take their dirt armies anyway. Whilst one of my own friends is quite concerned about the perception of taking a cheesy list I ve been pretty frank that the other players are just dicks who are abusing the list building. We have three elder players at the club and I am rolling up with a non bashy tyranid list. Now I barely see the point of playing this new elder army. This army can quite easily kill all 100 of my gaunts in a single turn with jetbikes and then use d weapons to kill any monstrous creature I have. Considering I am putting a lot of painting time and money into getting my nid army ready for this campaign I am pretty miffed at the prospect of being tabled by turn 2 three times in a row by elder coz they get better units than me for less points.
So quite honestly I think they just ban elder outright. The codex is clearly incredibly out of balance with all the other codexes. They have basic troop units that can one shot titans and primarches people. That is broken. No two ways of looking at it.
SharkoutofWata wrote: Don't like my Eldar? Stay off my tables then. If this is your stance on Eldar than I do not want to play against you using my Astral Claws, Tyranids or even my stupidly weak Chaos list. If you want to take steps to invalidate the army that I spent a few hundred dollars on because of a rule set that is 1) out of my control and 2) not the end of the world, then your group, area and whatever else you get to side with you is not a part of the hobby that I want to be a part of. Reimburse the time and money I put into the army or you can kindly stuff it. You damage the hobby more with this sort of thinking than anything else.
Not nearly as much damage as GW does by being the owners.
I get where you are coming from. But asking other players to reimburse you before you'll play one of your other armies? That seems kind of odd. Eldar are broken. It is not our fault. Asking for money to keep your broken list off the table isn't really fair, is it?
If it's your table, then you can do what you like with it. At the FLGS? Not your table.
I also wouldn't play at or give money to a place that bans Forge World, even though I own a single model from it that cost me all of $20. My list is and always has been Illic, Pathfinder Rangers, Guardians, a Falcon and some Dark Eldar for Reavers and a Raider. No Wraithknight, no Jetbikes yet, no more than one Wave Serpent and most of the time that had a Bright Lance turret. But this thread isn't asking about what list do you being, it is about banning Eldar. So you are explicitly saying that the list above that has zero cheese in it, no overpowered units, no spam, the hardest thing being a Dark Eldar squad with Farseer support, should be banned for the sole reason that it is Eldar. You didn't ask if my list was broken. You just want to ban it for the Faction on the Dataslate.
The only thing I can say is that Eldar players have to know by now that they are the darlings of GW, not the Astartes. They've gotten broken codex after broken codex since 2nd.
Martel732 wrote: The only thing I can say is that Eldar players have to know by now that they are the darlings of GW, not the Astartes. They've gotten broken codex after broken codex since 2nd.
I didn't play before 6th edition, so I can't say anything about them being overpowered for too long. But the only things wrong with the 6th edition codex were the Serpent Shield and the Wraithknight being undercosted.
Besides, your point is moot. Spess Muhreens have always been the top sellers.
Vaktathi wrote: What's worse is that this isn't even the first time they've done this with Eldar. The 3E reboot was in large part because of the 2E Eldar codex.
All second edition codices were invalidated by the release of third. The power level of the codex had nothing to do with it. Furthermore the third edition book (AKA Starcannons/Bright Lances) was one of the strongest Eldar books.
All the armies were nasty in second edition, at least the ones that had a codex. Second was a whole different game, made by people who cared about the game and not the current " new models are AWESOMETASTIC BUYBUYBUY!!!!" Set of designers.
This will never work, you're fooling yourself if you think you can stop people from feeding into GWs gak. Hurt them by playing something else entirely.
That is more or less the solution for any army -- or player -- that a player doesn't like. Play against something else.
It absolutely is. And I have no problems if someone looks at a list I make or if I look at someone else's list and says 'that does not look like fun for me' or 'that doesn't look like something my army can handle' and turning down a game. But this 'Operation Pitchfork' ridiculousness is taking it to a disgusting extreme and a player that blanket bans an army, any army, because of a new codex is simply not someone that I want to spend two hours of my life throwing dice with no matter what army I bring instead of Eldar.
Yes, I agree.
Unlike the majority on Dakka, I don't really have a problem with the new Eldar codex. I think the new Eldar dex is a buff -- like the Necron dex was -- but it's not game breaking or fun-breaking. If certain units end up being unbalanced and cause a lot of problems, I'm sure my friends in casual play will not have an issue making minor adjustments; and in competitive play, I'm sure that the tournament will put limits on things that are abusive.
The only people that "Operation Pitchfork" makes sense to is the nonexistent gaming population which demands the game be played RAW, is hypercompetitive, owns all the right models, AND has people who are willing to play against them.
I think a lot of people on the interwebs simply wanted an Eldar nerf -- just like they wanted a Necron nerf, and that didn't happen. GW simply wrote rules that encourage people to buy miniatures for an army that has 80% out of date models, and undercosted rules for a brand new box they put out.
To me, it hardly matters, because just like D&D rules we didn't like... we just changed them. HIGH MAJIKK!! At least it isn't like a Blizzard game, where a round of nerfs or buffs could render your 3,000 hour investment into a character totally useless.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote: The only thing I can say is that Eldar players have to know by now that they are the darlings of GW, not the Astartes. They've gotten broken codex after broken codex since 2nd.
I would actually disagree. Out of every playable faction other than Sisters.. they have the most outdated models, with no replacement in sight. Imperium get fresh models, like every third month lol.
The overpowered codices are just a way of making people buy models that they otherwise would never purchase, hehehe.
That is more or less the solution for any army -- or player -- that a player doesn't like. Play against something else.
It absolutely is. And I have no problems if someone looks at a list I make or if I look at someone else's list and says 'that does not look like fun for me' or 'that doesn't look like something my army can handle' and turning down a game. But this 'Operation Pitchfork' ridiculousness is taking it to a disgusting extreme and a player that blanket bans an army, any army, because of a new codex is simply not someone that I want to spend two hours of my life throwing dice with no matter what army I bring instead of Eldar.
Yes, I agree.
Unlike the majority on Dakka, I don't really have a problem with the new Eldar codex. I think the new Eldar dex is a buff -- like the Necron dex was -- but it's not game breaking or fun-breaking. If certain units end up being unbalanced and cause a lot of problems, I'm sure my friends in casual play will not have an issue making minor adjustments; and in competitive play, I'm sure that the tournament will put limits on things that are abusive.
The only people that "Operation Pitchfork" makes sense to is the nonexistent gaming population which demands the game be played RAW, is hypercompetitive, owns all the right models, AND has people who are willing to play against them.
I think a lot of people on the interwebs simply wanted an Eldar nerf -- just like they wanted a Necron nerf, and that didn't happen. GW simply wrote rules that encourage people to buy miniatures for an army that has 80% out of date models, and undercosted rules for a brand new box they put out.
How are 80% of the Eldar models "out of date"?
The overwhelmingly vast majority of models are only like 8 years old (not much older than most staple Imperial kits and *way* newer than most IG infantry) and many are only a couple of years old. Meanwhile, their only remaining truly "old" units were Jetbikes and the tanks, the Jetbikes are now new and the tanks still look fine.
The only issue Eldar have is just lots of Aspect Warriors still being Finecast. Their overall range isn't particularly old.
You don't need to rub Eldar out entirely for the tournament scene, which GW doesn't give a damn about in the first place.
A few sensible restrictions would make them playable. 1 heavy weapon (SL or Shuriken Cannon) per 3 bikes, Range Str. D weapons --> S10, things like that.
Standout Buffs (not including formations):
-Scorpions get stealth and shrouded on a unit which can contain karendras and another Initiative hitting powerfist.
-Hawks which can haywire a flyer.
-Wraithguard get st D
-Wraithblades are cheaper and get rage
-Wraithknights are guargantuan with stD
-Crimson Hunter cheaper
-Dire Avengers overwatch at bs2
-Jetbikes get scatterlasers for 10pts
-Hemlock got a ton of upgrades
Standout nerfs:
-Serpshield is 24" one use 2d6 st6 ignores cover
-Wraithguard and Blades cannot be taken as troops with a spirit seer.
This is on a dex which was already statistically the best dex in the game in terms of results.
How on earth Talys can you not see that this is more than just a slight buff?
Martel732 wrote: The only thing I can say is that Eldar players have to know by now that they are the darlings of GW, not the Astartes. They've gotten broken codex after broken codex since 2nd.
I didn't play before 6th edition, so I can't say anything about them being overpowered for too long. But the only things wrong with the 6th edition codex were the Serpent Shield and the Wraithknight being undercosted.
Besides, your point is moot. Spess Muhreens have always been the top sellers.
Played against them yesterday morning... Hurt my grey knights a lot, and grey knights aren't weak.
If people choose to play Eldar because they like Eldar you shouldn't stop them... But they are frustrating and no matter how hard I tried it always seems to be a losing battle from turn 1 onwards, they have more kit, special rules and other toys.
They are an army that adds a lot of flavour though and maybe a toned down version of them would be better for everyone? If everyone played IOM armies 40k would be a very dull place.
That is more or less the solution for any army -- or player -- that a player doesn't like. Play against something else.
It absolutely is. And I have no problems if someone looks at a list I make or if I look at someone else's list and says 'that does not look like fun for me' or 'that doesn't look like something my army can handle' and turning down a game. But this 'Operation Pitchfork' ridiculousness is taking it to a disgusting extreme and a player that blanket bans an army, any army, because of a new codex is simply not someone that I want to spend two hours of my life throwing dice with no matter what army I bring instead of Eldar.
Yes, I agree.
Unlike the majority on Dakka, I don't really have a problem with the new Eldar codex. I think the new Eldar dex is a buff -- like the Necron dex was -- but it's not game breaking or fun-breaking. If certain units end up being unbalanced and cause a lot of problems, I'm sure my friends in casual play will not have an issue making minor adjustments; and in competitive play, I'm sure that the tournament will put limits on things that are abusive.
The only people that "Operation Pitchfork" makes sense to is the nonexistent gaming population which demands the game be played RAW, is hypercompetitive, owns all the right models, AND has people who are willing to play against them.
I think a lot of people on the interwebs simply wanted an Eldar nerf -- just like they wanted a Necron nerf, and that didn't happen. GW simply wrote rules that encourage people to buy miniatures for an army that has 80% out of date models, and undercosted rules for a brand new box they put out.
To me, it hardly matters, because just like D&D rules we didn't like... we just changed them. HIGH MAJIKK!! At least it isn't like a Blizzard game, where a round of nerfs or buffs could render your 3,000 hour investment into a character totally useless.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote: The only thing I can say is that Eldar players have to know by now that they are the darlings of GW, not the Astartes. They've gotten broken codex after broken codex since 2nd.
I would actually disagree. Out of every playable faction other than Sisters.. they have the most outdated models, with no replacement in sight. Imperium get fresh models, like every third month lol.
The overpowered codices are just a way of making people buy models that they otherwise would never purchase, hehehe.
What I personally find most hilarious & sad about this whole, "OMG! Ban Eldar 'cause they'z brokenzzz!11!" mentality is that I experience the exact opposite when Grey Knights in 5th utterly bent every single Daemon army in existence over backwards, and fed it to us strait up the poop-shute...
Everywhere I went, GK's were in abundance, and with a single 10 man unit, they could make the game 0 fun and near 0 odds of me even getting close to them. With 30 Warp Quake models, I couldn't even legally deploy a single model on the gakking table.
Yet for almost 2 years, all I and every other Daemon player got was a veritable litany of either "suck it up and learn to play noob!" up to "they're daemonhunters, so it's 100% balanced & fluffy that they auto-win against Daemons"
How hypocritical players are... It's fine and super fluffy for an Imperial force to be utterly bonkers and fully invalidate my entire collection to the point I can't even play a game, but when a Xenos force gets a strong book with a handful of bonkers unit combos, suddenly we should be burning GW to the ground?
How about, "here kettle, meet pot, I hear you two have a lot in common"
I'll more than readily give these new Eldar a shot with my Daemons... If someone's a complete tool and insists only abusing the crap out the book to table me within 1-2 turns, I likely just won't play that specific individual again, because I don't enjoy donkeycavehammer.
I'm sure the majority of Eldar players though are reasonable people who would perhaps dial back their 'Tournament' list to be a slight bit friendlier to my non-tournament list. (unlike the vast majority of GK players I dealt with throughout 5th & early 6th...)
Eldar are a strong dex with just the aspect warriors (buffs all around for them. Scorpions especially) I'd be fine playing an aspect warrior theme list with 5-15 bikes and even a WK.
the biggest effect on the meta will be that wraith knights can't be tar pitted and will completely wreck Imperial knights, but they will still be hard countered by cent-star so don't expect to see mass wraith knights wining tournaments.
bikes and access to mass farseers could make hyper mobile seer council bike lists successful at gt's.
the D on wraith guard not a big deal the range and speed will make them a suicide unit no easy access to hit and run stops invisible wraith stars being viable. their really just a hard counter to super super heavy vehicles and gmc.
I think It will be top tier but not the game wrecking army that some are making out.
I do think that casual players are going to struggle though just like they do against imperial knights.
Vaktathi wrote: How are 80% of the Eldar models "out of date"?
The overwhelmingly vast majority of models are only like 8 years old (not much older than most staple Imperial kits and *way* newer than most IG infantry) and many are only a couple of years old. Meanwhile, their only remaining truly "old" units were Jetbikes and the tanks, the Jetbikes are now new and the tanks still look fine.
The only issue Eldar have is just lots of Aspect Warriors still being Finecast. Their overall range isn't particularly old.
Just compare the Eldar models to Dark Eldar. But let's do it --
- Guardians and Vaul are junk; the level of detail with them compared to any modern kit is awful.
- Every HQ is either Metal or Finecast, except except the new Autarch and 1 Farseer model
- Finecast: Fire Dragons, Howling Banshees, Warp Spiders, Swooping Hawks, every Farseer but one, Warlocks, Rangers. These are monopose models to boot.
- Vypers compared to Harlequin and Dark Eldar versions look dinky
- They have essentially 1 tank; Fire Prism, Night Spinners and Falcons are the same model. Wave Serpents are almost the same chassis.
- War Walkers are ok-ish, but nothing exciting
- 2 nice jets that are similar
- 3 nice wraith models - Wraithguard, Wraithlords, Wraithknights
To given an example of moderness of plastic, Assault Marines are old crap. Death Company are sweet new plastic. Of all the factions, Eldar have the least sweet new plastic.
Just compare proportions to: Necron, Tyranid, Harlequins, Dark Eldar, Tau, Orks, Guard, CSM and of course, the gold standard, Space Marines. Out of all the playable factions, only Chaos Demons and Sisters have a higher percentage of dated models (nobody can beat them, since it's 100%).
What did the majority of eldar players ask for? New aspect warrior models.
What did the majority of the gamer base ask for? A slight nerf to the eldar dex.
What did GW do? Release no new aspect warrior models and buff eldar to new heights.
Poly Ranger wrote: What did the majority of eldar players ask for? New aspect warrior models.
What did the majority of the gamer base ask for? A slight nerf to the eldar dex.
What did GW do? Release no new aspect warrior models and buff eldar to new heights.
Just crazy PR.
I concur: I wish there had been new aspect warrior models. I would have gone nuts in an Eldar revival, lol.
Martel732 wrote: The only thing I can say is that Eldar players have to know by now that they are the darlings of GW, not the Astartes. They've gotten broken codex after broken codex since 2nd.
I didn't play before 6th edition, so I can't say anything about them being overpowered for too long. But the only things wrong with the 6th edition codex were the Serpent Shield and the Wraithknight being undercosted.
Besides, your point is moot. Spess Muhreens have always been the top sellers.
No he is actually correct, you've been on a bad streak haven't you? To the public Space Marines are iconic and therefore sell as the standard. But when it comes to Eldar, GW obviously has an odd interest in keeping Eldar strong.
Vaktathi wrote: How are 80% of the Eldar models "out of date"?
The overwhelmingly vast majority of models are only like 8 years old (not much older than most staple Imperial kits and *way* newer than most IG infantry) and many are only a couple of years old. Meanwhile, their only remaining truly "old" units were Jetbikes and the tanks, the Jetbikes are now new and the tanks still look fine.
The only issue Eldar have is just lots of Aspect Warriors still being Finecast. Their overall range isn't particularly old.
Just compare the Eldar models to Dark Eldar. But let's do it --
- Guardians and Vaul are junk; the level of detail with them compared to any modern kit is awful.
- Every HQ is either Metal or Finecast, except except the new Autarch and 1 Farseer model
- Finecast: Fire Dragons, Howling Banshees, Warp Spiders, Swooping Hawks, every Farseer but one, Warlocks, Rangers. These are monopose models to boot.
- Vypers compared to Harlequin and Dark Eldar versions look dinky
- They have essentially 1 tank; Fire Prism, Night Spinners and Falcons are the same model. Wave Serpents are almost the same chassis.
- War Walkers are ok-ish, but nothing exciting
- 2 nice jets that are similar
- 3 nice wraith models - Wraithguard, Wraithlords, Wraithknights
To given an example of moderness of plastic, Assault Marines are old crap. Death Company are sweet new plastic. Of all the factions, Eldar have the least sweet new plastic.
Just compare proportions to: Necron, Tyranid, Harlequins, Dark Eldar, Tau, Orks, Guard, CSM and of course, the gold standard, Space Marines. Out of all the playable factions, only Chaos Demons and Sisters have a higher percentage of dated models (nobody can beat them, since it's 100%).
To be fair, Chaos Marines look like absolute wet rodent gak compared to the Eldar range... Sure they've got the most mono-pose models next to Sisters, but at those models look damn pretty!
Chaos Marines have the most hideous model line, and not in the good way either, as well as almost as much Finecrap as Eldar...
You know, it's stuff like this that stops me from actually wanting to play Eldar. I really want to make an Aspects of khaine, I love the idea of the Aspect Warriors and I like some of the modls. But stuff like Serpents, and now these jetbikes and wraith stuff, I have a feeling if I ever show up to a club with Eldar, people won't want to play with me because of this stuff.
FakeBritishPerson wrote: You know, it's stuff like this that stops me from actually wanting to play Eldar. I really want to make an Aspects of khaine, I love the idea of the Aspect Warriors and I like some of the modls. But stuff like Serpents, and now these jetbikes and wraith stuff, I have a feeling if I ever show up to a club with Eldar, people won't want to play with me because of this stuff.
Your conscience seems to be fully functional. We thank you for having a soul.
Just let people proxy their stuff as Eldar units at this point. It will be more fun. Ork nobs as aspect warriors, Kommandos as scorpions, Superoverpriced Gorkanaughts as WraithKnights.
EDIT: Yes actually thank you FBP for having a soul, do you need a soulstone for it? I hear Slaneesh is fickle. Wait what does Ancient Doom do now?
Vaktathi wrote: How are 80% of the Eldar models "out of date"?
The overwhelmingly vast majority of models are only like 8 years old (not much older than most staple Imperial kits and *way* newer than most IG infantry) and many are only a couple of years old. Meanwhile, their only remaining truly "old" units were Jetbikes and the tanks, the Jetbikes are now new and the tanks still look fine.
The only issue Eldar have is just lots of Aspect Warriors still being Finecast. Their overall range isn't particularly old.
Just compare the Eldar models to Dark Eldar. But let's do it --
- Guardians and Vaul are junk; the level of detail with them compared to any modern kit is awful.
- Every HQ is either Metal or Finecast, except except the new Autarch and 1 Farseer model
- Finecast: Fire Dragons, Howling Banshees, Warp Spiders, Swooping Hawks, every Farseer but one, Warlocks, Rangers. These are monopose models to boot.
- Vypers compared to Harlequin and Dark Eldar versions look dinky
- They have essentially 1 tank; Fire Prism, Night Spinners and Falcons are the same model. Wave Serpents are almost the same chassis.
- War Walkers are ok-ish, but nothing exciting
- 2 nice jets that are similar
- 3 nice wraith models - Wraithguard, Wraithlords, Wraithknights
To given an example of moderness of plastic, Assault Marines are old crap. Death Company are sweet new plastic. Of all the factions, Eldar have the least sweet new plastic.
Just compare proportions to: Necron, Tyranid, Harlequins, Dark Eldar, Tau, Orks, Guard, CSM and of course, the gold standard, Space Marines. Out of all the playable factions, only Chaos Demons and Sisters have a higher percentage of dated models (nobody can beat them, since it's 100%).
Exalted. Though I still do like the look of the Vyper, no matter how outdated the kit is.
Also, I wouldn't be surprised if all the finecast Aspect Warriors (read: everything that isn't Dire Avengers) go direct-order only, if they weren't already.
Who knows what will happen when they eventually phase out finecast?
FakeBritishPerson wrote: You know, it's stuff like this that stops me from actually wanting to play Eldar. I really want to make an Aspects of khaine, I love the idea of the Aspect Warriors and I like some of the modls. But stuff like Serpents, and now these jetbikes and wraith stuff, I have a feeling if I ever show up to a club with Eldar, people won't want to play with me because of this stuff.
I made a thread over in the Tactics section about this. You can still make that army, and even be effective on the tabletop. Plus your opponent won't get to complain, because you didn't bring the ludicrously OP units.
Vaktathi wrote: How are 80% of the Eldar models "out of date"?
The overwhelmingly vast majority of models are only like 8 years old (not much older than most staple Imperial kits and *way* newer than most IG infantry) and many are only a couple of years old. Meanwhile, their only remaining truly "old" units were Jetbikes and the tanks, the Jetbikes are now new and the tanks still look fine.
The only issue Eldar have is just lots of Aspect Warriors still being Finecast. Their overall range isn't particularly old.
Just compare the Eldar models to Dark Eldar. But let's do it --
- Guardians and Vaul are junk; the level of detail with them compared to any modern kit is awful.
The Guardians themselves aren't any older (or at least not much older) than the basic sculpts for marines, or Fire Warriors, or any of the IG infantry except the command sets and Scions & Ogryn, or basic Ork Boyz, and they certainly aren't any worse than any of those sets.
The big Vaul weapons aren't even 5 years old yet, those are rather new.
- Every HQ is either Metal or Finecast, except except the new Autarch and 1 Farseer model
Plastic HQ's are a relatively recent thing, within the last 5 years. Given that a lot of the plastic models are absurdly expensive and aren't really any better than the finecast/metal ones, I'm not seeing a huge downside there. A lot of factions don't have plastic HQ's, especially not for their complete HQ assortment. Eldar aren't really unique in that regard.
- Finecast: Fire Dragons, Howling Banshees, Warp Spiders, Swooping Hawks, every Farseer but one, Warlocks, Rangers. These are monopose models to boot.
Yes, they're Finecast and monopose, I'll grant that, but most of them aren't spectacularly old however, only a year or two older than many SM equivalents like any of the three SM Veterans sets, Legion of the Damned, and the like. Or Chaos Marines where many of the Cult troops remain Metal/Resin or Plastic/Metal hybrids that date back to 2001/2002. Many factions have lots of monopose metal/finecast Elites units.
Again, nothing unique to Eldar there, though yes, getting Aspect Warriors in plastic would have been great.
Speaking of which, GW's had the new Jetbike models sitting around since 2007, strange that it took them so long to release them.
- Vypers compared to Harlequin and Dark Eldar versions look dinky
The crew look a bit weird, the vehicles themselves look allright, I don't have any on hand right now but IIRC they aren't much different dimensionally or in terms of detail. I could be wrong on that one though I'll admit.
- They have essentially 1 tank; Fire Prism, Night Spinners and Falcons are the same model. Wave Serpents are almost the same chassis.
Same with IG, DE, Tau and SM's. They've got like 1 or 2 chassis that serve as the basis for everything, and the Fire Prism/Night Spinner kit isn't even 5 years old yet, the Wave Serpent only a bit older. The Falcon is relatively old but you couldn't tell that looking at the other variants.
- War Walkers are ok-ish, but nothing exciting
But not out-dated. They may not be the most great looking models to you, but they're relatively new next to many equivalents. Certainly newer than the designs for many equivalents like Sentinels, Pirhanas, Land Speeders, etc (a couple of those have gotten some re-cuts, largely to consolidate kits or fix assembly issues, but the designs haven't changed in over a decade)
To given an example of moderness of plastic, Assault Marines are old crap. Death Company are sweet new plastic. Of all the factions, Eldar have the least sweet new plastic
They don't have sweet new plastic like some of the Space Marine stuff. They're not however by any means anywhere near last place in this regard, nor is their range as a whole spectacularly old.
Just compare proportions to: Necron, Tyranid, Harlequins, Dark Eldar, Tau, Orks, Guard, CSM and of course, the gold standard, Space Marines. Out of all the playable factions, only Chaos Demons and Sisters have a higher percentage of dated models (nobody can beat them, since it's 100%).
DE got a complete revamp and ditched everything from before 2010 after going a decade without any attention. Most of the IG infantry are 13-14 years old except the command squads and a couple Elites units. Most IG vehicles are extremely slight redesigns of 20 year old models, most people can't tell a new-kit Basilisk from a 2E Basilisk for instance. Orks have only very recently gotten a bunch of new plastic to replace a slew of 20 year old plastics, and many of those new kits are absurdly highly priced. Tau Crisis Suits, Fire Warriors and Vehicles are all older than most of the current Eldar line, with only Broadsides and RIptides and a couple HQ models being newer IIRC.
Yeah, Harlequins are new and in all plastic greatness, but they're also Eldar . Tyranids are in a pretty good spot, but also a very recent development. Necrons are probably the best in terms of what you're going for, having plastic that's less than 4 years old for everything I think at this point except C'tan.
But ultimately, Eldar's model range isn't that spectacularly outdated when we look at these things. They're pretty middle of the road. I'd certainly say they have more "sweet plastic" than something like IG, who really only have Scions and Valkyries (maybe Tauroxes if that's you're thing? Not mine) as "sweet plastic".
Quickjager wrote: Just let people proxy their stuff as Eldar units at this point. It will be more fun. Ork nobs as aspect warriors, Kommandos as scorpions, Superoverpriced Gorkanaughts as WraithKnights.
EDIT: Yes actually thank you FBP for having a soul, do you need a soulstone for it? I hear Slaneesh is fickle. Wait what does Ancient Doom do now?
I was thinking about this earlier. Are wraithguard on terminator bases? I could actually dust off my terminators!
Quickjager wrote: Just let people proxy their stuff as Eldar units at this point. It will be more fun. Ork nobs as aspect warriors, Kommandos as scorpions, Superoverpriced Gorkanaughts as WraithKnights.
EDIT: Yes actually thank you FBP for having a soul, do you need a soulstone for it? I hear Slaneesh is fickle. Wait what does Ancient Doom do now?
I was thinking about this earlier. Are wraithguard on terminator bases? I could actually dust off my terminators!
I think they are TERMINATORS ARE BACK BABY! Assault marines finally can attack fliers as well!
FakeBritishPerson wrote: You know, it's stuff like this that stops me from actually wanting to play Eldar. I really want to make an Aspects of khaine, I love the idea of the Aspect Warriors and I like some of the modls. But stuff like Serpents, and now these jetbikes and wraith stuff, I have a feeling if I ever show up to a club with Eldar, people won't want to play with me because of this stuff.
Your conscience seems to be fully functional. We thank you for having a soul.
That's a bit excessive. He's talking about not running a list with Aspect Warriors who received some minor sorely needed buffs. But since its Eldar, he's concerned that people would be all PITCHFORK! (Which is now my name for anyone refusing to play against anything in any game). I admit that I was swept up in the bandwagon, but ultimately, you have to trust the guys you play with in the flgs or club to keep it light. At my FLGS everyone is pretty cool about stuff provided it is approached in a mature and adult manner.
I enjoy this game and would prefer if others found a way to enjoy it themselves or find a different game rather than act in ways to destroy the company.
@Vaktathi - I don't have time to reply to your response point by point, and I'm on a tablet watching TV, so I'll just ooint out a couple of things.
If you compare equivalent models between Dark Eldar and Eldar, the DE models are simply more sophisticated. Kabalites vs. Guardians. Wyches vs. DA. Scourges vs Swooping Hawks. Et cetera. I doubt you want to defend Finecast as being as good as HIPS.
How is it that you figure that IG and space marines have one tank chassis (each)? IG have lrmbt, wyvern, taurox, and baneblade off the top of my head. SM have at least land raider and rhino chassis, plus drop pods.
The eldar have one kit for tank and one for DT; you can practically build all the variants with it, and two of the variants are almost identical.
You pretty much make my point for me when you talk about when DE, Orks, etc. got new models. Heck, BA, a minor faction, got tacticals.
Anyhow, as someone who loves modeling GW stuff, I can only say that a lot of Eldar models feel very dated.
Oh and Harlequins can't be taken as a part of the new Eldar (any more than De).
FakeBritishPerson wrote: You know, it's stuff like this that stops me from actually wanting to play Eldar. I really want to make an Aspects of khaine, I love the idea of the Aspect Warriors and I like some of the modls. But stuff like Serpents, and now these jetbikes and wraith stuff, I have a feeling if I ever show up to a club with Eldar, people won't want to play with me because of this stuff.
Your conscience seems to be fully functional. We thank you for having a soul.
That's a bit excessive. He's talking about not running a list with Aspect Warriors who received some minor sorely needed buffs. But since its Eldar, he's concerned that people would be all PITCHFORK! (Which is now my name for anyone refusing to play against anything in any game). I admit that I was swept up in the bandwagon, but ultimately, you have to trust the guys you play with in the flgs or club to keep it light. At my FLGS everyone is pretty cool about stuff provided it is approached in a mature and adult manner.
You call it pitchforking like its a derogatory term, but seriously, if you played a game that took about 3 hours, and there was some faction/unit type that literally made the game not only unwinnable* but completely not fun for you, would you want to keep spending 3 hour chunks playing them, or just play someone else... Or go do laundry or something else productive?
Really I'm hearing "if you're not having fun watching your army get slaughtered by this awesome one with no real opportunity to do anything back, you must be a jerk!" from people on here.
*unwinnable is a slight exaggeration. Gretchin can kill terminators, krak grenades can kill flyers, and a lone ork boy can sweeping advance a 20 man dark eldar warrior unit. That doesn't make it bloody likely!
The codex really needs to be pulped and replaced with a nerfed, not buffed, codex.
This would cost Games Workshop many thousands of dollars. The only way this kind of chump change is going to be spent is if it comes directly from the shareholders. This is the only course of action we have, IMHO, that will be effective.
SharkoutofWata wrote: Don't like my Eldar? Stay off my tables then. If this is your stance on Eldar than I do not want to play against you using my Astral Claws, Tyranids or even my stupidly weak Chaos list. If you want to take steps to invalidate the army that I spent a few hundred dollars on because of a rule set that is 1) out of my control and 2) not the end of the world, then your group, area and whatever else you get to side with you is not a part of the hobby that I want to be a part of. Reimburse the time and money I put into the army or you can kindly stuff it. You damage the hobby more with this sort of thinking than anything else.
If your response to "No thanks, I wouldn't have fun against that list" is "Fine, I won't play you with any list!", you might be unreasonable.
FakeBritishPerson wrote: You know, it's stuff like this that stops me from actually wanting to play Eldar. I really want to make an Aspects of khaine, I love the idea of the Aspect Warriors and I like some of the modls. But stuff like Serpents, and now these jetbikes and wraith stuff, I have a feeling if I ever show up to a club with Eldar, people won't want to play with me because of this stuff.
Your conscience seems to be fully functional. We thank you for having a soul.
Spoiler:
That's a bit excessive. He's talking about not running a list with Aspect Warriors who received some minor sorely needed buffs. But since its Eldar, he's concerned that people would be all PITCHFORK! (Which is now my name for anyone refusing to play against anything in any game). I admit that I was swept up in the bandwagon, but ultimately, you have to trust the guys you play with in the flgs or club to keep it light. At my FLGS everyone is pretty cool about stuff provided it is approached in a mature and adult manner.
Spoiler:
You call it pitchforking like its a derogatory term, but seriously, if you played a game that took about 3 hours, and there was some faction/unit type that literally made the game not only unwinnable* but completely not fun for you, would you want to keep spending 3 hour chunks playing them, or just play someone else... Or go do laundry or something else productive?
Really I'm hearing "if you're not having fun watching your army get slaughtered by this awesome one with no real opportunity to do anything back, you must be a jerk!" from people on here.
*unwinnable is a slight exaggeration. Gretchin can kill terminators, krak grenades can kill flyers, and a lone ork boy can sweeping advance a 20 man dark eldar warrior unit. That doesn't make it bloody likely!
I don't think anybody in this thread has been defending the state of the new Eldar codex. That it is game-breakingly overpowered is obvious to all. But refusing to play an entire army because of the rules and points costs for certain units is just as ridiculous.
Talys wrote: @Vaktathi - I don't have time to reply to your response point by point, and I'm on a tablet watching TV, so I'll just ooint out a couple of things.
If you compare equivalent models between Dark Eldar and Eldar, the DE models are simply more sophisticated. Kabalites vs. Guardians. Wyches vs. DA. Scourges vs Swooping Hawks. Et cetera. I doubt you want to defend Finecast as being as good as HIPS
The material is not as good no, Finecast resin is terrible, but if we look at the actual models themselves (or metal versions), the models aren't all that bad.
That said, I don't think a lot of these comparisons are great. Why are we comparing Wyches and Dire Avengers? Wyches are a close combat unit, with a background heavily involving appearance and showmanship, with armored, clothed, and bare flesh segments that are simply more inherently complex, relative to Dire Avengers which are a fully armored strictly combat unit. The DA sculpts are also only like 3 years older than the Wyches, and I don't see anything wrong with them in terms of detail.
Likewise, Kabalite Warriors vs Guardians, the Guardians are more plain, with less segmented armor and no spiky bits/blades, but I don't think that makes them worse sculpts or less detailed, they're just inherently less flashy units, as to be expected from the disciplined and studious Eldar as oppose to their wild and individualistic Dark Eldar kin.
The Swooping Hawks are a fair point, I forgot about them, they are a bit older. The other Aspects IIRC however were all redone in 2006/7, making them about a year older than stuff like SM Sternguard/Vanguard vets and Legion of the Damned IIRC.
How is it that you figure that IG and space marines have one tank chassis (each)? IG have lrmbt, wyvern, taurox, and baneblade off the top of my head. SM have at least land raider and rhino chassis, plus drop pods.
I didn't think we were counting Superheavies, so didn't bother with the Baneblade (which also isn't included in the IG codex, only the Escalation book).
That said, almost everything is built on either the Chimera or LRBT chassis, mosly the Chimera chassis. I guess you can include the Taurox but I can't stand the thing, I don't think I've seen anyone buy one and only saw a couple of them in the immediate aftermath of the codex release and then never saw them again, and largely consider it an unwanted superfluous outlier.
Really they've got the Chimera Chassis and Leman Russ chassis. IG are also really marketed as the "Tank" army.
I don't think its really fair to include the Drop Pod in there with the SM as that's a relatively unique vehicle. Aside from that, they've got two chassis.
The eldar have one kit for tank and one for DT; you can practically build all the variants with it, and two of the variants are almost identical.
Sure they're all built on the same hull, but is there really a problem here, or are just looking "they don't have 2-3 different hulls" as being innately unequal?
I mean, Tau have one hull for everything too except Pirhanas. SM's have one hull for everything except their "just-shy-of-superheavy" Land Raider (which is just a class of unit Eldar don't have, much like SM's don't have Jetbikes). SM MBT's, Artillery, and DT's all use the same hull chassis *just* like Eldar.
You pretty much make my point for me when you talk about when DE, Orks, etc. got new models. Heck, BA, a minor faction, got tacticals.
Orks had an even older model range than Eldar, and have now ended up being *way* more expensive to play with their updated models than they used to be. DE were practically an extinct army for years and effectively re-released as a whole new army.
Eldar have gotten a good clutch of releases with every codex. Aside from Aspect Warriors and some HQ's, are now all plastic, and even those finecast/metal models aren't significantly older than many of their equivalents in other armies. They're not the newest and plasticiest, but they're not lagging spectacularly far behind either. Certainly nothing like the 80% number quoted earlier.
Anyhow, as someone who loves modeling GW stuff, I can only say that a lot of Eldar models feel very dated.
All I can say is that they're really not that dated however given the pace of releases relative to many other armies. They're not all super-duper new plastics, but neither is IG, SM's, Tau, etc. Eldar aren't spectacularly far behind these armies.
Oh and Harlequins can't be taken as a part of the new Eldar (any more than De).
Are they not in the book at all? I guess that might make a sort of sense, though with the way BB's and detachments work it's probably not much more than semantics I guess the way this game is heading.
I just can't understand why as a community we can just send a message that enough is enough. Easy enough just don't buy the new book or new models.
Take one for team Eldar guys. Play the 6th ed book. People at this point people will gladly let you play it. Its not like you lose anything this way. No money lost (but saved) or time lost.
The message gets sent. The community rejoices and Eldar players are hailed as the heroes that saved 40k.
Or you know we could argue. Let the game continue to just get worse and worse. Let the community shrink ever more as people bail before its too late to get some money back. And when it finally fails completely you guys can be secure in your awesome skillz, ability to "adapt" and spend money compulsively better then any one else.
I remember being bombed completely off the table in 4th and 5th by IG artillery lines. Deploy , deploy shovel, go home turn 1.
I remember not even being allowed to get that far by GK quakes hunt preventing me from even deploying,
I remember all sorts of broken codex stuff from all 7 editions of 40k I have played. Virus outbreak ring a bell, if you weren't playing Marines...? Asscan/cyclone SW.. Cron Air, assassins popping up in your own units with vortex grenades?
Etc etc...
This isn't the worst power imbalance 40k has ever seen. It won't be the last either.
I will play Eldar players just as I played against all those other dirty-broken lists from other codexes.
Odds are I'll have fun sometimes too, despite the power disparity,
Ascalam wrote: I remember being bombed completely off the table in 4th and 5th by IG artillery lines. Deploy , deploy shovel, go home turn 1.
This really only worked when the IG army went first, terrain was light, and the opponent deployed really stupidly (this was also the edition you could *very* effectively play reserve-denial games, that's how I played my Eldar then), and even then wouldn't blast you off the board in anything like one turn, and they certainly weren't throwing the quantity of firepower around that's commonplace now. That also only worked in 5E, IG in 4E were a horrendous joke of an uncompetitive army.
An Eldar player said he was glad my GK don't have psybolt ammo anymore because they do silly things; and I just looked at him as he put 4 serpents down...
aronthomas17 wrote: An Eldar player said he was glad my GK don't have psybolt ammo anymore because they do silly things; and I just looked at him as he put 4 serpents down...
Have you considered the Sicaran or Icarus Array Onager Dune Crawler (both of which ignore Jink) ?
Ascalam wrote: I remember being bombed completely off the table in 4th and 5th by IG artillery lines. Deploy , deploy shovel, go home turn 1.
This really only worked when the IG army went first, terrain was light, and the opponent deployed really stupidly (this was also the edition you could *very* effectively play reserve-denial games, that's how I played my Eldar then), and even then wouldn't blast you off the board in anything like one turn, and they certainly weren't throwing the quantity of firepower around that's commonplace now. That also only worked in 5E, IG in 4E were a horrendous joke of an uncompetitive army.
If you played orks, DE or Nids (swarm armies, or fragile vehicle armadas) and lost first go, you would be wiped off the map before even moving, unless you were playing a very heavy terrain table, as you have no option but to clump up. Swarm armies pretty much fill their deployment zone at the start of the game, and the same goes for raider fleets or trukk convoys.
And oddly enough the Sm and IG players would get all hot under the collar at the idea of giving you something to hide behind a lot of games at my flgs occurred on the war torn planet Billiard Ball
BrotherGecko wrote: I just can't understand why as a community we can just send a message that enough is enough. Easy enough just don't buy the new book or new models.
Take one for team Eldar guys. Play the 6th ed book. People at this point people will gladly let you play it. Its not like you lose anything this way. No money lost (but saved) or time lost.
The message gets sent. The community rejoices and Eldar players are hailed as the heroes that saved 40k.
Or you know we could argue. Let the game continue to just get worse and worse. Let the community shrink ever more as people bail before its too late to get some money back. And when it finally fails completely you guys can be secure in your awesome skillz, ability to "adapt" and spend money compulsively better then any one else.
1. 95% of my games are leagues and tournaments where that won't be allowed
2. I happen to like the new book
3. It isn't my job to fix the game. I'll send you my direct deposit info, feel free to give me the yearly salary of the rules writers and then I'll consider it my job
You sound like someone who thinks voting means you have a say in how the country is run, or gun free zone signs actually mean someone willing to commit armed robbery and murder will stop in their tracks over a sign.
Ascalam wrote: I remember being bombed completely off the table in 4th and 5th by IG artillery lines. Deploy , deploy shovel, go home turn 1.
This really only worked when the IG army went first, terrain was light, and the opponent deployed really stupidly (this was also the edition you could *very* effectively play reserve-denial games, that's how I played my Eldar then), and even then wouldn't blast you off the board in anything like one turn, and they certainly weren't throwing the quantity of firepower around that's commonplace now. That also only worked in 5E, IG in 4E were a horrendous joke of an uncompetitive army.
If you played orks, DE or Nids (swarm armies, or fragile vehicle armadas) and lost first go, you would be wiped off the map before even moving, unless you were playing a very heavy terrain table, as you have no option but to clump up. Swarm armies pretty much fill their deployment zone at the start of the game, and the same goes for raider fleets or trukk convoys.
And oddly enough the Sm and IG players would get all hot under the collar at the idea of giving you something to hide behind a lot of games at my flgs occurred on the war torn planet Billiard Ball
I actually found my most effective IG armies in 5E weren't the ones with tons of blast templates, it was those with just lots of shots. I think by the end of 5E, I don't think I was running any real blast templates in my tournament army, rather 17 hulls with just lots of guns as opposed to blasts.
Either way, they were rather situational and hugely first turn dependent. When the stars aligned, they could be absolutely brutal, true, but they wouldn't routinely clear tables against most armies.
Vaktathi wrote: Sure they're all built on the same hull, but is there really a problem here, or are just looking "they don't have 2-3 different hulls" as being innately unequal?
No, that's not what I mean. Fire prism and Night Spinner are literally the same kit. Like, one box, 2 builds. Night Spinner and Falcon are so similar as to be virtually identical -- only the turret is a tiny bit different. Tell me it ain't so.
I mean, Tau have one hull for everything too except Pirhanas. SM's have one hull for everything except their "just-shy-of-superheavy" Land Raider (which is just a class of unit Eldar don't have, much like SM's don't have Jetbikes). SM MBT's, Artillery, and DT's all use the same hull chassis *just* like Eldar.
Yes SM don't have Eldar Jetbikes... but they do have bikes (various) and land speeders (2)...
With SM, there are many distinctive looking models you can build. For instance, a predator, vindicator, rhino, and whirlwind all look distinctive (and have their various roles), even though they're based on one chassis. A whirlwind and vindicator look MUCH different from each other than a Night Spinner and Falcon. In the same way that a Fire Prism at least looks a little different from a Wave Serpent. I hope you see what I mean. And yeah, Drop Pods are not tanks. But uh.. I guess they are like wrecked tanks more than anything else
All I'm saying is: I wish GW would make more distinctive tanks for one of the main factions. Just one would make me happy!
Eldar have gotten a good clutch of releases with every codex. Aside from Aspect Warriors and some HQ's, are now all plastic, and even those finecast/metal models aren't significantly older than many of their equivalents in other armies. They're not the newest and plasticiest, but they're not lagging spectacularly far behind either. Certainly nothing like the 80% number quoted earlier.
but.. but... but... Aspect Warriors are like... the core of the Eldar fluff, lol. I stand by my 80% number, because every time I go to my FLGS and look at the Eldar section of the shelf, I'm depressed by anything that isn't a jet or has the name "Wraith" in it.
Let's put it another way: - How many infantry kits do the Eldar have that are multipart plastic? Versus other top factions? - How many vehicle kits do the Eldar have? Versus other top factions?
Are they not in the book at all? I guess that might make a sort of sense, though with the way BB's and detachments work it's probably not much more than semantics I guess the way this game is heading.
Well, I don't have the book yet, but I presume this is the case as they aren't in the war host chart as an option in the white dwarf, and there's no mention of them anywhere in the leaks. I mean, they're as much a part of Eldar as Grey Knights are to (vanilla) Space Marines. There doesn't seem to be a way to deploy them without using rules from their own codex.
If they were in the main book, nobody would ever buy the Harlequin codex
Anyhow, all I'm doing is saying Eldar need a big refresh, the way DE and other factions have gotten. New Guardians, Aspect Warriors, Swooping Hawks and I would be satisfied. Add a new Vyper, and 1 more distinctive tank, and I'd be thrilled. When a large part of the collection is metal, snapfit, or finecast... it's dated. Eldar were my second faction ever, and I would love to go back to collecting it.
My worst matches were against a mix of blasts and tons of las guns. I still enjoyed some of them, but playing 3rd ed DE and 4th ed orks against that was basically suicidal...
A couple of codexes down the line they'll probably give SM players Reaver Titans as troops at 15 pts each, and we will be hearing about how balanced and mild they are
If I wasn't into playing masochistically I wouldn't be playing DE in any case
SharkoutofWata wrote: Don't like my Eldar? Stay off my tables then. If this is your stance on Eldar than I do not want to play against you using my Astral Claws, Tyranids or even my stupidly weak Chaos list. If you want to take steps to invalidate the army that I spent a few hundred dollars on because of a rule set that is 1) out of my control and 2) not the end of the world, then your group, area and whatever else you get to side with you is not a part of the hobby that I want to be a part of. Reimburse the time and money I put into the army or you can kindly stuff it. You damage the hobby more with this sort of thinking than anything else.
See fellow forumites? It's working. It starts with one. Then we get two, and the numbers don't let up. I think people are just too lazy and don't stick to their guns. Even if I had a friend who played Eldar I would no longer play him. That's just the kind of person I am though. All you need to do is just get them angry. When no one ever wants to play with them they'll get the picture to finally bring sanity to the Eldar codex.
This is for the good of all the Warhammer 40k community, Eldar players, and GW.
Ascalam wrote: My worst matches were against a mix of blasts and tons of las guns. I still enjoyed some of them, but playing 3rd ed DE and 4th ed orks against that was basically suicidal...
To be fair, DE always seem to do poorly against IG. I almost never beat them with my CSM's, but I don't think I've ever had a game with IG, even the crappy 3.5E codex, against DE that wasn't painfully one sided against the DE.
A couple of codexes down the line they'll probably give SM players Reaver Titans as troops at 15 pts each, and we will be hearing about how balanced and mild they are
SharkoutofWata wrote: Don't like my Eldar? Stay off my tables then. If this is your stance on Eldar than I do not want to play against you using my Astral Claws, Tyranids or even my stupidly weak Chaos list. If you want to take steps to invalidate the army that I spent a few hundred dollars on because of a rule set that is 1) out of my control and 2) not the end of the world, then your group, area and whatever else you get to side with you is not a part of the hobby that I want to be a part of. Reimburse the time and money I put into the army or you can kindly stuff it. You damage the hobby more with this sort of thinking than anything else.
See fellow forumites? It's working. It starts with one. Then we get two, and the numbers don't let up. I think people are just too lazy and don't stick to their guns. Even if I had a friend who played Eldar I would no longer play him. That's just the kind of person I am though. All you need to do is just get them angry. When no one ever wants to play with them they'll get the picture to finally bring sanity to the Eldar codex.
This is for the good of all the Warhammer 40k community, Eldar players, and GW.
Well I wouldn't necessarily refuse to play someone with Eldar immediately.
That being said if I know they're trying to cheese it then our games would have to conclude till an agreement can be reached between both parties.
Completely over the top this thread is pointless. Guess what, just because YOU do no like Eldar does not mean you should ban someone from playing with the models he/she likes or race they like. Nut up and stop crying about it.
Eldarain wrote: Eldar have almost always been at the upper echelons of power in 40k (Yes I know they were briefly weak in 5th)
How anyone there thought this would be something you can release is beyond me. This is 7th Fantasy Daemons bad.
It's funny too because I just bought the 6th book a couple weeks ago to ally with Harlequins and was upset I bought it with a new one around the corner.
Who would have thought I bought the tame balanced one...
What's worse is that this isn't even the first time they've done this with Eldar. The 3E reboot was in large part because of the 2E Eldar codex.
gmaleron wrote: Completely over the top this thread is pointless. Guess what, just because YOU do no like Eldar does not mean you should ban someone from playing with the models he/she likes or race they like. Nut up and stop crying about it.
Thanks for doing your part. The more pissed off you are the more likely GW is to finally pay attention. Go in rage.
gmaleron wrote: Completely over the top this thread is pointless. Guess what, just because YOU do no like Eldar does not mean you should ban someone from playing with the models he/she likes or race they like. Nut up and stop crying about it.
Thanks for doing your part. The more pissed off you are the more likely GW is to finally pay attention. Go in rage.
Sorry for pointing out that this is nothing more then a "I hate Eldar Thread" and your argument for it is completely baseless and outright stupid. If someone is solely playing Eldar to be the most competitive then I can somewhat agree, but for all the players that play Eldar because they love the fluff and the models it is completely stupid. Just realize that you will become "TFG" and for every player you refuse to play against is another that will refuse to play against you. Maybe instead of crying about Eldar you should learn to play against them with the best of your ability with the army you have? Think constructively or is that to much of a foreign concept? Im not even mad, I just find it ridiculous how much complaining has been going on before the book has even been released.
SharkoutofWata wrote: Don't like my Eldar? Stay off my tables then. If this is your stance on Eldar than I do not want to play against you using my Astral Claws, Tyranids or even my stupidly weak Chaos list. If you want to take steps to invalidate the army that I spent a few hundred dollars on because of a rule set that is 1) out of my control and 2) not the end of the world, then your group, area and whatever else you get to side with you is not a part of the hobby that I want to be a part of. Reimburse the time and money I put into the army or you can kindly stuff it. You damage the hobby more with this sort of thinking than anything else.
See fellow forumites? It's working. It starts with one. Then we get two, and the numbers don't let up. I think people are just too lazy and don't stick to their guns. Even if I had a friend who played Eldar I would no longer play him. That's just the kind of person I am though. All you need to do is just get them angry. When no one ever wants to play with them they'll get the picture to finally bring sanity to the Eldar codex.
This is for the good of all the Warhammer 40k community, Eldar players, and GW.
You can call it a victory if you want, but the feeling is mutual no matter what army I play. I could play the strongest army or the weakest and I would still refuse a game with you because we enjoy the hobby very differently. You want to make a political statement in a game of plastic men and soldiers, I want to play a game I enjoy. You can refuse my game for the Faction, I can refuse for the personality and ridiculous demands of the player.
GW doesn't care about your petty views or mine. They aren't going to change no matter what tantrum you throw. All you're doing is hurting the community and other players and punishing them for the rule set that they had no say in. Don't pretend your cause is noble.
This is interesting because it just shows how driven people are to actually collect the army or the OPness of the month. I will play a couple of games against Eldar on TT, just to see how they fare against differing armies, then if my opponents bring cheese to the table, I'll just refuse to play them.
All I can say is I wish that when DA get updated they get this level of cheese, instead of a tired codex which overcosts everything.
Sir Arun wrote: Or how about this? You let us use the old hardback codex.
I say that people should be allowed to use and Codex or army list from the start of 40k3 onward. Want to play a 40k3 Rulebook list? Great. Want to play the latest shiny thing? Great.
This gak about banning entire armies? No.
That said, I'm OK if some punk wants to concede the moment I tell him I'm playing Eldar that I spent significant time and money collecting and painting.
SharkoutofWata wrote: You can call it a victory if you want, but the feeling is mutual no matter what army I play. I could play the strongest army or the weakest and I would still refuse a game with you because we enjoy the hobby very differently. You want to make a political statement in a game of plastic men and soldiers, I want to play a game I enjoy. You can refuse my game for the Faction, I can refuse for the personality and ridiculous demands of the player.
GW doesn't care about your petty views or mine. They aren't going to change no matter what tantrum you throw. All you're doing is hurting the community and other players and punishing them for the rule set that they had no say in. Don't pretend your cause is noble.
Totally agree, as I said he sounds like "TFG" who demands the game cater to him rather then the community as a whole. You have NO RIGHT to dictate how people wish to play the game of 40k and to ban an entire race because you don't like it is completely baseless.
gmaleron wrote: Completely over the top this thread is pointless. Guess what, just because YOU do no like Eldar does not mean you should ban someone from playing with the models he/she likes or race they like. Nut up and stop crying about it.
While banning models is extreme, it's not going to leave a favorable opinion of the Eldar when someone has to remove a "handful of models" a turn from Eldar shooting and relatively early in the game from the way things are appearing.
Not to mention the potential for cheesing it and counter-cheesing it is probably not going to be pretty.
Sadly, the OP may be new to GW. We have seen this cycle of gamer hate since before the internet was in every home when it comes to 40K.
I will continue to get games and attend tourneys with no issues, even with my mean old Eldar. Heck, I may even win more Best Sports or Best Painted or even win my bracket. All with Eldar at various GTs. Life goes on with my man dollies.
7e eldar is like a vintage magic the gathering (yknow, all those old super awesome cards?) deck entering a standard tournament like Friday night magic. They are just from two different worlds of the same game. They pretty much have no business playing each other, unless you just want to see how ridiculous magic used to be. On the plus side, getting your face stomped by a vintage mtg deck doesn't take 3 hours of table setup and playing. It's more like 3 minutes.
No one throws a fit about not being able to play their black lotuses, ancestral recalls, and strip mines at standard magic tourneys. I'm pretty sure the eldar players would get over being relegated to using their previous book, which was already one of the strongest in the game.
I agree the Eldar codex is proper ridiculous. But this pitchfork thing will last about 5 minutes and die a death.
Btw those saying "nut up" about this are just plain silly. Think we must come from very different worlds if you need to "nut up" when it comes to rolling dice for plastic soldiers. People play a game for fun. If certain lists are not fun to play its not because they are not man enough its more than likely its just not fun.
Gamgee wrote: It would be pretty fun if we could get GW voted worst company in America (I know it's not based there).
Is there any equivalent votes or things like that we could use? Imagine the shame from the public if they won worst company in UK.
...you really think GW would care so badly what a few disgruntled players think?
No but I do think it would care what the United Kingdom would have to say. The shame of being ousted as the worst company in the UK would quite suddenly give them a huge bad image the public is aware of. It would also allow competitors to move in and counter that bad image. Whatever actions we take can hurt GW. We just have to think of ways to do that. I think the simplest thing to do would be ramp up the production of hilarious comics making fun of Eldar/GW/Poor Treatment of People/Poor Treatment of Employees. Anything we could really use to light a spark and keep the flame going. We would need to distribute these things as far as we could across the internet. Seriously I'm fething pissed at GW. We need to grow our power base at the same time. I don't think GW will care about a few players. I will think they will care when it's a huge amount, we're giving them a bad image, and hurting their profits in a well coordinated manner.
We have to hit them at all levels we can hit them at if we want to have a real shot at this.
Ooohhh think of the scandal if we can get GW nominated on the worst company of America vote as a guest contestant. Showing they are so bad in the UK we gotta give them special mention. Hahah it's great.
The Imperial Answer wrote: Now I've been under the impression the only people more disgruntled about aspects of the new codex than non-Eldar players are actual Eldar players.
ive 2 friends who after this release are refusing to play their eldar. Win win for GW there since now they need new armies to get a game.
Lutharr101 wrote: I agree the Eldar codex is proper ridiculous. But this pitchfork thing will last about 5 minutes and die a death.
Btw those saying "nut up" about this are just plain silly. Think we must come from very different worlds if you need to "nut up" when it comes to rolling dice for plastic soldiers. People play a game for fun. If certain lists are not fun to play its not because they are not man enough its more than likely its just not fun.
Its an expression meaning to toughen up and deal with it because crying about it is not going solve anything, especially in this game its not something to take literally. Also the book hasn't even been released and people are already freaking out about it which is a clear overreaction, and your definition of fun could be completely different from someone else's. Some people enjoy playing competitively and bringing their A game against someone else while others prefer fluff and fun based games, just because you don't find it fun does not mean others do to.
Gamgee wrote: No but I do think it would care what the United Kingdom would have to say. The shame of being ousted as the worst company in the UK would quite suddenly give them a huge bad image the public is aware of. It would also allow competitors to move in and counter that bad image. Whatever actions we take can hurt GW. We just have to think of ways to do that. I think the simplest thing to do would be ramp up the production of hilarious comics making fun of Eldar/GW/Poor Treatment of People/Poor Treatment of Employees. Anything we could really use to light a spark and keep the flame going. We would need to distribute these things as far as we could across the internet. Seriously I'm fething pissed at GW. We need to grow our power base at the same time. I don't think GW will care about a few players. I will think they will care when it's a huge amount, we're giving them a bad image, and hurting their profits in a well coordinated manner.
We have to hit them at all levels we can hit them at if we want to have a real shot at this.
Ooohhh think of the scandal if we can get GW nominated on the worst company of America vote as a guest contestant. Showing they are so bad in the UK we gotta give them special mention. Hahah it's great.
I really hope your not being serious because trust me its not going to work regardless of what you think. More and more you talk I don't know if your being serious or just trolling...
The Imperial Answer wrote: Now I've been under the impression the only people more disgruntled about aspects of the new codex than non-Eldar players are actual Eldar players.
ive 2 friends who after this release are refusing to play their eldar. Win win for GW there since now they need new armies to get a game.
Come to think of it didn't the new codex also invalidate the Iyanden Wraith Army concept given wraith constructs can no longer be Troops ?
Lutharr101 wrote: I agree the Eldar codex is proper ridiculous. But this pitchfork thing will last about 5 minutes and die a death.
Btw those saying "nut up" about this are just plain silly. Think we must come from very different worlds if you need to "nut up" when it comes to rolling dice for plastic soldiers. People play a game for fun. If certain lists are not fun to play its not because they are not man enough its more than likely its just not fun.
Its an expression meaning to toughen up and deal with it because crying about it is not going solve anything, especially in this game its not something to take literally. Also the book hasn't even been released and people are already freaking out about it which is a clear overreaction, and your definition of fun could be completely different from someone else's. Some people enjoy playing competitively and bringing their A game against someone else while others prefer fluff and fun based games, just because you don't find it fun does not mean others do to.
Gamgee wrote: It would be pretty fun if we could get GW voted worst company in America (I know it's not based there).
Is there any equivalent votes or things like that we could use? Imagine the shame from the public if they won worst company in UK.
...you really think GW would care so badly what a few disgruntled players think?
No but I do think it would care what the United Kingdom would have to say. The shame of being ousted as the worst company in the UK would quite suddenly give them a huge bad image the public is aware of. It would also allow competitors to move in and counter that bad image. Whatever actions we take can hurt GW. We just have to think of ways to do that. I think the simplest thing to do would be ramp up the production of hilarious comics making fun of Eldar/GW/Poor Treatment of People/Poor Treatment of Employees. Anything we could really use to light a spark and keep the flame going. We would need to distribute these things as far as we could across the internet. Seriously I'm fething pissed at GW. We need to grow our power base at the same time. I don't think GW will care about a few players. I will think they will care when it's a huge amount, we're giving them a bad image, and hurting their profits in a well coordinated manner.
We have to hit them at all levels we can hit them at if we want to have a real shot at this.
Ooohhh think of the scandal if we can get GW nominated on the worst company of America vote as a guest contestant. Showing they are so bad in the UK we gotta give them special mention. Hahah it's great.
see now ya just sound like a raving hater. Your really not helping yourself when its going from I dont like the Eldar to a hate campaign against the company. Reality check. People will be pissed. But not enough give a rats hairy starfish to even get close to what you want.
Seconded. If you don't like it, don't play Eldar.
It's gonna be part of the game. Either deal with it, or decline every match. Heck, even ASK an opponent to tone down a cheesy list.
If people feed the problem, its just going to escalate. We as gamers need to try and get GW to address this sort of release, rather than putting up with broken codices and races.
This to me, just shows how desperate GW is for major sales at the moment.
Gamgee wrote: You guys sound so soft. Just guzzling GW dick and the Eldars too it seems.
You'll roll over and take it any day of the week from GW as long as they bring your plastic crack huh?
grow up
Grow down.
People missed my edit so here it is.
This is a reality check, but in the REAL WORLD we do things very differently than the battered house wives of GW. We can talk to companies and engage them. If any other company did this gak to its customers it would be at least worth a few internet opinion articles and some interviews. The funny thing is while everyone here is rolling over at the first sign of nothing I've taken part in two successful campaigns like this to get companies to stop being dicks. It is possible.
MechWarrior Online was only partially successful, but it was successful enough that the people who ruined and fethed up MWO tried to launch a fundraiser for a new game and it never got take off. Prior to this they were raking in 5 million from early backers.
Mass Effect 3 Ending. This was completely successful. We got on national news and got them to change the ending of the trilogy. Yes it was that fething bad.
I don't see why anyone here can't accomplish the same things. Unless as I said they are plastic crack whores.
Doctadeth wrote: If people feed the problem, its just going to escalate. We as gamers need to try and get GW to address this sort of release, rather than putting up with broken codices and races.
This to me, just shows how desperate GW is for major sales at the moment.
Well since cover is looking pretty favorable right now its oddly convenient GW rolled out the Promethium Relay Pipe when they did.
SharkoutofWata wrote: This has deteriorated into an obvious troll thread. We've fed it enough.
while I agree the Eldar codex is ridiculously cheesey I must agree with you on this. Seems the culture of feet stamping just grows more and more each day
SharkoutofWata wrote: This has deteriorated into an obvious troll thread. We've fed it enough.
while I agree the Eldar codex is ridiculously cheesey I must agree with you on this. Seems the culture of feet stamping just grows more and more each day
The irony is insane. Feet stamping indeed. Just not the kind your imagining. The defeated shuffling march of feet on the ground to the tune of GW. So entrenched in their ways when someone actually suggests a way to improve it they don't even bother critically analyzing it. They just bring out the automatic responses. Certainly few here with any fire left in them. Now that is ironic for a group of people who enjoy a grim dark future with nothing but fighting that there isn't an an ounce of fight in them.
The Imperial Answer wrote: To be honest have any games even been played against the new Eldar Codex yet ?
I don't think its even reached the hands of that many Eldar players yet.
If you saw a reaver Titan for 1 point, would you need to play a game to know that it's blatantly OP and probably going to make the game super-one-sided?
Please lock this thread so we can stop listening to this troll cry about something he has no control over, clearly a troll thread. Done posting and trying to talk to a hater crying about a book not even released.
SharkoutofWata wrote: This has deteriorated into an obvious troll thread. We've fed it enough.
You think this is bad, you should see 4chan's 40k General.
The Entropy there would make the powers of the C'tan seem like cheap parlor tricks.
Ugh so ironic. When this is nothing but people bowing down to Nurgle on this thread. Giving up. Surrendering. It's such an easy existence to be in the thrall of GW. 4chan is the opposite of entropy. Endless change. Too much change. Not enough solid force to have a direction.
Rippy wrote: Lol signed. My brother in law is an Eldar Cheeselord, already told him to not even bother asking me for a game if he mass cheese lists.
Welcome aboard. Spread the word. We're now 4 strong. Added you to the front page.
@Thread in general
Also I must say I'm really shocked not to have been banned so far. Most people would have written me off as an obvious troll. So I've gotten further than I expected. A small victory for me.
How about just letting Games Workshop know how badly the rules are written. Through your wallet and your own actions rather than doing nothing and encouraging the writing of proliferation codexes.
The point is, if we do nothing, we encourage more of the same. So we need action.
Doctadeth wrote: How about just letting Games Workshop know how badly the rules are written. Through your wallet and your own actions rather than doing nothing and encouraging the writing of proliferation codexes.
The point is, if we do nothing, we encourage more of the same. So we need action.
Shouldn't we wait for the codex to drop before we being taking action ?
As I understand it hasn't reached mass distribution yet.
Doctadeth wrote: How about just letting Games Workshop know how badly the rules are written. Through your wallet and your own actions rather than doing nothing and encouraging the writing of proliferation codexes.
The point is, if we do nothing, we encourage more of the same. So we need action.
Shouldn't we wait for the codex to drop before we being taking action ?
As I understand it hasn't reached mass distribution yet.
I think they mean if at anytime you dont like their results, you should write to them.
We just need to face it. 40k has evolved into an addiction. Just look at the responses to any complaints legitimate or otherwise are immediately met with an aggressive response to defend the habit.
Again, we got the info from a source thats reliable. If we delay release, it gives time for rules to get revised. Perhaps that evening on grass or meth could be looked over.
BrotherGecko wrote: We just need to face it. 40k has evolved into an addiction. Just look at the responses to any complaints legitimate or otherwise are immediately met with an aggressive response to defend the habit.
Calm down chops, people can be passionate about ther hobby without your petty labels being thrown at them.
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Doctadeth wrote: Again, we got the info from a source thats reliable. If we delay release, it gives time for rules to get revised. Perhaps that evening on grass or meth could be looked over.
They would NOT change the print this late. The best you can hope for is an errata.
Its not a petty label steaks (?). This codex is going to be a huge success for GW. Because despite it being a horrible an blatant symbol of the problems with 40k people be will incapable of not throwing hundreds of dollars at this release.
Just look at pointless special editions that are more expensive verisons of the codex. Yet people go ham for them.
Its very similar to WoW. Create a culture were people feel the need to spend money constantly to keep pace. Blizzard figured it out and so has GW.
BrotherGecko wrote: Its not a petty label steaks (?). This codex is going to be a huge success for GW. Because despite it being a horrible an blatant symbol of the problems with 40k people will incapable of not throwing hundreds of dollars at this release.
Some armies don't even have counters. Thats the problem. Sure, there are ways to try and counter those lists, but veteran eldar players are just going to pound everyone.
Doctadeth wrote: Some armies don't even have counters. Thats the problem. Sure, there are ways to try and counter those lists, but veteran eldar players are just going to pound everyone.
But that isn't going to stop some people from trying to counter it.
Either way GW is turning a profit (unknowingly or intentionally is up for debate) from people either seeking the new Eldar Codex or those seeking to counter it (assuming a purchase is made from GW in either case).
Exactly right now people are building lists that will cost them hundreds of dollars to try an keep up with the Eldar. Or they will buy Eldar to be on the level.
Going by Necrons and now Eldar if Tau and Space Marines go over the top then it will be confirmed. GW will have learned the formula. They will have created a culture that requires people to perpetually spend money or fall behind the curve. An those that get hooked will have to defend the habit in order to justify the expense.
BrotherGecko wrote: We just need to face it. 40k has evolved into an addiction. Just look at the responses to any complaints legitimate or otherwise are immediately met with an aggressive response to defend the habit.
Indeed. I'm not saying we need to get rid of 40k. Hell I like it too, but it could be so much more for everyone. I didn't say I wanted Eldar banned forever. I just want this codex banned to show them how wrong it was to make something this obscenely powerful compared to everything else.
@Thread in General
Who knows this could all be for nothing. The codex "could" be balanced. But we know it's not. We have reliable sources on all websites about unit stats. The news came so fast because of this huge controversy. Also the funny thing is. The MWO and the ME3 Ending campaigns were successful because we didn't fight politely and send nice polite letters in a thankful tone. WE GOT MAD! We threw a fit and a tantrum. We combined logical arguments with an emotional response and the effect was quite dramatic.
Once wider distribution of the new Eldar Codex is upon us we can dissect it further in greater detail and have in depth detail examples how broken it is compared to every other codex. Why this codex needs to be changed.
@ The guy who's name I forget.
It's been over 5 minutes and it's not dead. So what are you going to move the goalposts to 10 minutes? 1 hour? 10? I'll be waiting.
BrotherGecko wrote: Exactly right now people are building lists that will cost them hundreds of dollars to try an keep up with the Eldar. Or they will buy Eldar to be on the level.
Going by Necrons and now Eldar if Tau and Space Marines go over the top then it will be confirmed. GW will have learned the formula. They will have created a culture that requires people to perpetually spend money or fall behind the curve. An those that get hooked will have to defend the habit in order to justify the expense.
Lol .... :(
Well I believe its said somewhere that GW has said their first priority is models first then rules (I am unsure if this is true or not).
If it is then they are definitely experiencing noteworthy success I would imagine.
I'm just examining myself and my recent but now ultimately futile attempt bringing my Necrons up with their new book. I didn't need anything from book but I still spent $200 on new stuff. I've never done that. But 40k seems to be inspiring that lately. It used to be about the collection but now it looks like need.
Adapt is code for a few hundred bucks and hours. Yet that is the defense.
Look at the the rumors for WFB 9th. Its possible it will invalidate hundreds of peoples dollars. An likely people will just spend a ton to "adapt" insread of just walking away.
gmaleron wrote: Think im going to have to get an Eldar army now, all this crying is enjoyable to watch.
Hey man you don't have to rationalize it to me. Do what you do and go wild.
BrotherGecko wrote: I'm just examining myself and my recent but now ultimately futile attempt bringing my Necrons up with their new book. I didn't need anything from book but I still spent $200 on new stuff. I've never done that. But 40k seems to be inspiring that lately. It used to be about the collection but now it looks like need.
Adapt is code for a few hundred bucks and hours. Yet that is the defense.
Look at the the rumors for WFB 9th. Its possible it will invalidate hundreds of peoples dollars. An likely people will just spend a ton to "adapt" instead of just walking away.
gmaleron wrote: Think im going to have to get an Eldar army now, all this crying is enjoyable to watch.
Hey man you don't have to rationalize it to me. Do what you do and go wild.
Indeed. It feels like so much of an investment to let it all go. Even I considered quitting, but I need to at least try to do something. If not it would feel like an even greater waste.
BrotherGecko wrote: I'm just examining myself and my recent but now ultimately futile attempt bringing my Necrons up with their new book. I didn't need anything from book but I still spent $200 on new stuff. I've never done that. But 40k seems to be inspiring that lately. It used to be about the collection but now it looks like need.
Adapt is code for a few hundred bucks and hours. Yet that is the defense.
Look at the the rumors for WFB 9th. Its possible it will invalidate hundreds of peoples dollars. An likely people will just spend a ton to "adapt" insread of just walking away.
gmaleron wrote: Think im going to have to get an Eldar army now, all this crying is enjoyable to watch.
Hey man you don't have to rationalize it to me. Do what you do and go wild.
There's been some talk too regarding this subject. In the end this bit isn't actually wrong towards customers. Armies will get invalidated, and in the end there is nothing wrong with that even if we don't like it. Expecting ones army to stay competitive forever is futile, one will need to update it or change it. This is the case with many other games and products in general.
Yeah, it's not the case with Warmachine yet, before someone brings that up again. Let's see in 10 years, your double Stormwall list will be invalidated by then.
Some turn over is healthy. A 10 year list is pretty nice you have to admit lol. But to flop the whole meta every other month isn't healthy for a game that runs hundreds of dollars. It is a pay to win system.
I'm simply just going to stop spending money. Even tried to make an excuse to just go with 30k. But as soon as GW allows aliens it will be ruined so I'm just gonna stop now.
I think at this point its going to go down like this
Eldar: Hey want to play a game?
Lesser Being: Sure what faction?
Eldar: Eldar
Lesser Being: Let me see your units.
Eldar: Sure
-if list includes Wraith units, bikes, or Seer council. Auto-deny
-if list includes foot-slogging infantry. Consider the match
-if list includes Striking Scorpions and Banshees. Congratulations you found the cool Eldar player.
I like the idea of this. Kind of like what our Constitution was founded on. If the people don't find things are being ran correctly, we make a stand for change.
But seriously, me and my friend will probably record a batrep tomorrow with his Eldar as a last hurrah with the 6th edition codex, and then I'll probably never play them again.
To be honest, if I found a player supporting this motion in full force. I wouldnt play with them,
in Warhammer Fantasy Battle,
in Warmachine,
in Infinity,
in Dystopian Wars or Firestorm Armada,
in Star Trek Attack Wing, X-Wing, or Star Wars Armada,
in Magic the Gathering,
or even in the multitudes of Pen and Papers.
Why? Simple. We dont need toxic players. Encouraging the ruination of others ability to enjoy the game is stuff we do not need to encourage, in any system, for any reason.
the funny thing is one little whiny thread is going to change fak all. And thats a guarantee. These threads popped up when tau were released, last eldar release, necron release. And on and on it will go.
Easier thing for people to do i stop acting like children stamping their feet cos they wanted an ice cream. You have the option to refuse to play anyone bringing some cheesey waac list to a friendly. No one is putting guns to heads. Straight up trying to get people to outright ban the codex not only wont happen to a scale that ammounts to anything, it'll make ya look a prat.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
krodarklorr wrote: I like the idea of this. Kind of like what our Constitution was founded on. If the people don't find things are being ran correctly, we make a stand for change.
But seriously, me and my friend will probably record a batrep tomorrow with his Eldar as a last hurrah with the 6th edition codex, and then I'll probably never play them again.
Why quit playing them?
Its your option to build a list where you press the IWIN button. If you like to build those lists anyways this codex is a wet dream. If you dont. Well dont spam cheesed units. U dont HAVE to spam Jetbikes with scatter lasers just because you can. You dont have to take 3 WK. You dont have to spam wraith guard with D weapons. Be part of the solution and show people the Codex is playable and you will get games with it, if you decide to play in the good spirit of the game.
Im amazed to the lengt some people goes to make their own whining voices heard. Dont like playing Eldar? Then dont play them, plain and simple. But apparently someone finds joy in this sort of toxic behaviour, and frankly I am glad I dont have the OP or any of his comrades in my gaming circle
Why quit playing them?
Its your option to build a list where you press the IWIN button. If you like to build those lists anyways this codex is a wet dream. If you dont. Well dont spam cheesed units. U dont HAVE to spam Jetbikes with scatter lasers just because you can. You dont have to take 3 WK. You dont have to spam wraith guard with D weapons. Be part of the solution and show people the Codex is playable and you will get games with it, if you decide to play in the good spirit of the game.
Again, as I've mentioned in other threads (As there's like, 10 about this topic right now), it's not really the power level itself (though it is absurd), but to me, its the fact that Eldar did not need these toys. At all. They already had an answer to most things that were better than other codexes. And they got even more stuff. Even in a casual game, I don't see an Ork player or a Dark Eldar player fairing well against Eldar. Even their casual lists will be brutal. I feel sorry for Eldar players, I really do. But feeling like you can't bring a ton of units in your book because you won't get games is not a good thing. Ever. For anyone.
The easiest solution for players and tourneys is to ignore 7-th ed codex and just stick to 6-th. No drama and eldar players still got to use their models without making anyone more angry than ususal.
I take the personal stance of reviewing my opponents list, and making my decision then. Not just against Eldar, but any army. If someone is bringing almost all fliers, bringing an armor wall, or something that my list is incapable of dealing with effectively, or I may find to be unfun, I do two things:
1.) As if they have the models with them to revise their list
2.) If 1 is not an option, I politely decline the game.
A blanket statement isn't the answer. While the new dex might be over the top (From what has been seen thus far), we cannot instantly mark every Eldar player as 'that guy' and thus ban them before even giving them a chance.
Now to be fair it seems like the Eldar Codex could have as much potential for a fair list as it does a cheese list.
Assuming for a moment you aren't dropping the cheddar block on the table what do we know about the other codex options that aren't the Scatter Lasers cranking out shots "Loota" Style or the D-Weapon proliferation ?
The Imperial Answer wrote: Now to be fair it seems like the Eldar Codex could have as much potential for a fair list as it does a cheese list.
Assuming for a moment you aren't dropping the cheddar block on the table what do we know about the other codex options that aren't the Scatter Lasers cranking out shots "Loota" Style or the D-Weapon proliferation ?
Infantry that always move 6" when they run and shoot, and have massed BS 5 everywhere. Deep Striking Falcons with Fire Dragons in them. Gakking out Psychic powers like nothing.
The Imperial Answer wrote: Now to be fair it seems like the Eldar Codex could have as much potential for a fair list as it does a cheese list.
Assuming for a moment you aren't dropping the cheddar block on the table what do we know about the other codex options that aren't the Scatter Lasers cranking out shots "Loota" Style or the D-Weapon proliferation ?
Infantry that always move 6" when they run and shoot, and have massed BS 5 everywhere. Deep Striking Falcons with Fire Dragons in them. Gakking out Psychic powers like nothing.
The Imperial Answer wrote: Now to be fair it seems like the Eldar Codex could have as much potential for a fair list as it does a cheese list.
Assuming for a moment you aren't dropping the cheddar block on the table what do we know about the other codex options that aren't the Scatter Lasers cranking out shots "Loota" Style or the D-Weapon proliferation ?
Infantry that always move 6" when they run and shoot, and have massed BS 5 everywhere. Deep Striking Falcons with Fire Dragons in them. Gakking out Psychic powers like nothing.
Has any of that seen a points cost increase ?
No, those are just the formation benefits of their detachment.
The Imperial Answer wrote: Now to be fair it seems like the Eldar Codex could have as much potential for a fair list as it does a cheese list.
Assuming for a moment you aren't dropping the cheddar block on the table what do we know about the other codex options that aren't the Scatter Lasers cranking out shots "Loota" Style or the D-Weapon proliferation ?
Infantry that always move 6" when they run and shoot, and have massed BS 5 everywhere. Deep Striking Falcons with Fire Dragons in them. Gakking out Psychic powers like nothing.
Has any of that seen a points cost increase ?
No, those are just the formation benefits of their detachment.
Well I can see they certainly pulled out any and all stops with this codex release. It makes me wonder what the formations will be like now.
Shigematsu wrote: To be honest, if I found a player supporting this motion in full force. I wouldnt play with them,
in Warhammer Fantasy Battle,
in Warmachine,
in Infinity,
in Dystopian Wars or Firestorm Armada,
in Star Trek Attack Wing, X-Wing, or Star Wars Armada,
in Magic the Gathering,
or even in the multitudes of Pen and Papers.
Why? Simple. We dont need toxic players. Encouraging the ruination of others ability to enjoy the game is stuff we do not need to encourage, in any system, for any reason.
Running a cheese list and being a WAAC player in friendly games because you're an over competitive player is toxic. Blindly following everything and being fine with it isn't actually a good thing. From what I've read this is worse even than bringing two WS to a 600pt game.
BrotherGecko wrote: We just need to face it. 40k has evolved into an addiction. Just look at the responses to any complaints legitimate or otherwise are immediately met with an aggressive response to defend the habit.
I agree! There seem to be so many people on here who have come out of the woodwork to insult and disparage those of us who have publically stated that the bikes are obviously broken. We have a different opinion to them so all they can do is insult in return. Now I'm not saying it's all of them, but there are a hell of a lot who have led and finished with insults with nothing in between, THEN have the audacity to claim we are not respecting them.
Edit: I understand if people are annoyed at those who suggest a straight eldar ban. But im talking about people who are insulting people just for the fact they said something was broken.
Shigematsu wrote: To be honest, if I found a player supporting this motion in full force. I wouldnt play with them,
in Warhammer Fantasy Battle,
in Warmachine,
in Infinity,
in Dystopian Wars or Firestorm Armada,
in Star Trek Attack Wing, X-Wing, or Star Wars Armada,
in Magic the Gathering,
or even in the multitudes of Pen and Papers.
Why? Simple. We dont need toxic players. Encouraging the ruination of others ability to enjoy the game is stuff we do not need to encourage, in any system, for any reason.
Running a cheese list and being a WAAC player in friendly games because you're an over competitive player is toxic. Blindly following everything and being fine with it isn't actually a good thing. From what I've read this is worse even than bringing two WS to a 600pt game.
Neither of which you said apply to me. I don't disagree with you on the first point, we dont need WAACs either. This hobby is supposed to be about great shared experiences and having fun with your friends. Encouraging dickery is even worse than the WAACers since at least the WAACer is limited to themselves.
The issue is that even without being WAAC it becomes harder to have a fun fluffy game with equal prospects for both sides when one codex is so far above another. CSM for example would have to take their version of a step below utter cheese to be equal with an average eldar dex.
Btw I do not advocate a straight eldar ban either.
Let me know how a ban on Eldar players works out. I doubt you will get very far and GW certainly won't give a damn. I have heard all the toys come out of the cot before. Whether its Necrons, Demons, Tau, Blood Angels... whatever. Its still just plastic spacemen war dollies. The game was never designed to be an even competitive field, not even close no matter how much people attempt to balance power levels in codexes.
Its a beer and pretzels game played by Science Fiction nerds and modellers who for some perverse reason tried to make it competitive. Who would think they can make every codex "equal" its never gonna happen wait a few months and something else will turn up.
Just because you can put an optimised army on the table doesn't mean you should. If people can't figure that out then don't play them. That part of the social contract has existed forever and is still valid. Its got nothing to do with Eldar or Necrons or whatever.
The problem with this is you hurt casual gamers more than WAACholes. I actually wanted to start a Wraith army sometime about a year ago, not because "Mwa ha ha this is super OP" but because I liked the idea of a Craftworld that was all but destroyed that had to use the souls of the dead.
Put the blame where it belongs: on GW. Not on the players. Someone who picks Saim-Hann or Iyanden because they like the fluff don't deserve to be insulted and told to feth off because GW can't write balanced games to save their lives. 40k is already virtually the only game that has a hard divide between players that borders on open hostility, does it really need more?
This stinks of segregation. "Get outta here, Eldar player! We don't want your kind 'round these parts!"
WayneTheGame wrote: The problem with this is you hurt casual gamers more than WAACholes. I actually wanted to start a Wraith army sometime about a year ago, not because "Mwa ha ha this is super OP" but because I liked the idea of a Craftworld that was all but destroyed that had to use the souls of the dead.
Put the blame where it belongs: on GW. Not on the players. Someone who picks Saim-Hann or Iyanden because they like the fluff don't deserve to be insulted and told to feth off because GW can't write balanced games to save their lives. 40k is already virtually the only game that has a hard divide between players that borders on open hostility, does it really need more?
This stinks of segregation. "Get outta here, Eldar player! We don't want your kind 'round these parts!"
Couldn't agree more, if anyone is being "TFG" its those who would refuse to play an army because they claim its OP (aka they are to scared to face it, barring a few bad matchups). Let them not want to play Eldar players, chances are they will be the ones hurting to find games.
WayneTheGame wrote: This stinks of segregation. "Get outta here, Eldar player! We don't want your kind 'round these parts!"
It literally is segregation. I saw someone in another thread suggest "Eldar-only" tournaments, where Eldar players go to play against each other, and everyone else plays in normal events where Eldar are naturally not allowed.
Gamgee: Hey Eldar player! We don't take kindly to your types around here.
Desubot: Now Gamgee, he ain't hurtin' nobody.
Gamgee: No! I wanna know something from Mr. Eldar player here. If you players are going to get broken units from Games Workshop and Forgeworld, how come you get upset when we call you out for imba?
WayneTheGame wrote: The problem with this is you hurt casual gamers more than WAACholes. I actually wanted to start a Wraith army sometime about a year ago, not because "Mwa ha ha this is super OP" but because I liked the idea of a Craftworld that was all but destroyed that had to use the souls of the dead.
Put the blame where it belongs: on GW. Not on the players. Someone who picks Saim-Hann or Iyanden because they like the fluff don't deserve to be insulted and told to feth off because GW can't write balanced games to save their lives. 40k is already virtually the only game that has a hard divide between players that borders on open hostility, does it really need more?
This stinks of segregation. "Get outta here, Eldar player! We don't want your kind 'round these parts!"
You do have a point. I am not in the ban all Eldar player camp or punish players. However, in regard to segregation isn't that what is going to happen anyway? I am have been a big supporter of only play who you want idea. Even in light of some of the crazier GW changes in the past few years nearly everything has been at least acceptable except for maybe the Revenant Titan. However, this one is really over the top. This new book is basically a buff for nearly every unit across the board for next to no penalty in cost or price for a book that was already very powerful even without WS spam. It falls way outside of the norm of what GW has been putting out. The main problem here is that GW doesn't communicate at all with their player base other than saying "everything is so cool guys buy all our games and toys". There is no statement of "hey we are taking the game in this direction, we are buffing armies for X reason here is the first one".
If you have an Ork army what are you supposed to do against Eldar bike spam that goes through your armor and murders units a turn? What about DE or BA who just came out and are nowhere near the Eldar power level? Those players are basically forced to shelf their armies for at least 2 years (when there next book gets released) if faced with something like Eldar, Decurion, and what ever comes down the pipe next.
The other side, is if you are an Eldar player no one is going to want to play your army outside your own circle of friends. It is already hard enough to find opponents at stores, with these changes a lot of players are either going to steer clear of you or rage quit the game.
Honestly, if I played Eldar I probably wouldn't buy the book right away and wait to see what happens.
GW Rules Writers: Boss, we did something very bad.
GW Boss: Did you buff Wave Serpents?
GW Rules Writers: No.
GW Boss: Did you buff the rest of the Codex?
GW Ruled Writers: Yes.
GW Boss: But you nerfed Wave Serpents?
GW Rules Writers: Uh-huh
GW Boss: All right then.
Not gonna happen. That book is going to be super bought. Its all part of the "git guud" strategy we keep hearing.
I knew a guy that used to refer to purchasing unnecessary 40k stuff as riding the dragon (if you see this...hi lol). Can they not buy the 7th book and have people except the 6th? Yes but then that money isn't going to spend itself.
Lol did you buy a bunch of serpents to adapt?
Do you now have to spend several hundred to get new stuff to adapt?
Why do you keep putting up with it?
kb305 wrote: lolgw loves to troll the nerds. theyre probably reading this right now and laughing about it while saying "whatever, you'll still buy it"
When your post shows your age.
NO, no company would do this.
And I mean c'mon, that implies that GW actually takes notice of anything their customers say
They do an this codex shows. They know what will cause a frenzy of compulsive spending. We just want to hope this has not been researched an done intentionally. But tons of companies have done this with other products (like MMOs) so a lot of the leg work is already done. GW is just the first to do it table tops.
Rippy wrote: I cannot wait for the flood of "I was just about to start a fluffy army with *enter all OP units* just by chance!" posts.
The two aren't mutually exclusive though. Now yes, spamming Jetbikes who just happen to have maxed out scatter lasers is a bit suspect, but Jetbikes alone with a variety of weapons isn't. Same with Wraiths. An all-Wraith army isn't necessarily chosen to be OP, it could just be that the player wants everything to be a Wraith unit. I know when I was considering it my army concept was no living models other than the Spiritseer, with vehicles built with closed cockpits and having wraithstones (I forget if that's what they're called) to show they were also wraith piloted.
Again: The problem with balance or lack thereof is on GW, not on the player. Someone fielding a Saim-Hann army can and should be able to field all Jetbikes, since that's their thing. If they only take scatter lasers it might be an indication that they're doing it solely for the power/cheese, but tarring and feathering anyone who takes a lot of Jetbikes with the same brush is a bit much.
Rippy wrote: I cannot wait for the flood of "I was just about to start a fluffy army with *enter all OP units* just by chance!" posts.
The two aren't mutually exclusive though. Now yes, spamming Jetbikes who just happen to have maxed out scatter lasers is a bit suspect, but Jetbikes alone with a variety of weapons isn't. Same with Wraiths. An all-Wraith army isn't necessarily chosen to be OP, it could just be that the player wants everything to be a Wraith unit. I know when I was considering it my army concept was no living models other than the Spiritseer, with vehicles built with closed cockpits and having wraithstones (I forget if that's what they're called) to show they were also wraith piloted.
Again: The problem with balance or lack thereof is on GW, not on the player. Someone fielding a Saim-Hann army can and should be able to field all Jetbikes, since that's their thing. If they only take scatter lasers it might be an indication that they're doing it solely for the power/cheese, but tarring and feathering anyone who takes a lot of Jetbikes with the same brush is a bit much.
My thoughts exactly. Iyanden even got their own supplement, and now that's been invalidated by the new codex. The onus is on GW to provide relatively balanced rules for play. Fortunately, the game also encourages house rules. The community as a whole will have to adapt to the need to house-rule a lot of what the Eldar now bring to the table.
Count me signed. I don't like how gak GW treats the main fan base that actually -wants- to support them. For me, its not only about eldar. Its a something much bigger.
WayneTheGame wrote: The problem with this is you hurt casual gamers more than WAACholes. I actually wanted to start a Wraith army sometime about a year ago, not because "Mwa ha ha this is super OP" but because I liked the idea of a Craftworld that was all but destroyed that had to use the souls of the dead.
Put the blame where it belongs: on GW. Not on the players. Someone who picks Saim-Hann or Iyanden because they like the fluff don't deserve to be insulted and told to feth off because GW can't write balanced games to save their lives. 40k is already virtually the only game that has a hard divide between players that borders on open hostility, does it really need more?
This stinks of segregation. "Get outta here, Eldar player! We don't want your kind 'round these parts!"
Imagine the fun of if you just past maybe 2.5-3k with that wraith list. I liked the sound of the background, the models, the challenge of a low count elite army. Then they decide to drop a bucket of SD next to it as I just started to mess around with some vehicles.
Rippy wrote: I cannot wait for the flood of "I was just about to start a fluffy army with *enter all OP units* just by chance!" posts.
Well... I have always liked Eldar vehicles (jetbikes, grav tanks, Nightwings, Phoenixes) and have been waiting for years since we first got pics of the new Eldar jetbike to start an army based around a jetbike core, thread from 8 years ago....
When I saw the new jetbikes but before the rules came out I momentarily considered started the Eldar jetbike and grav tank army... but then my lack of desire to collect another 40k army kicked in and I decided against it. Reading the woefully bad rules was just the icing on the cake
One day the jetbike bug may bite again though, who knows.
Drunken Angel wrote: Let me know how a ban on Eldar players works out. I doubt you will get very far and GW certainly won't give a damn. I have heard all the toys come out of the cot before. Whether its Necrons, Demons, Tau, Blood Angels... whatever. Its still just plastic spacemen war dollies. The game was never designed to be an even competitive field, not even close no matter how much people attempt to balance power levels in codexes.
Its a beer and pretzels game played by Science Fiction nerds and modellers who for some perverse reason tried to make it competitive. Who would think they can make every codex "equal" its never gonna happen wait a few months and something else will turn up.
Just because you can put an optimised army on the table doesn't mean you should. If people can't figure that out then don't play them. That part of the social contract has existed forever and is still valid. Its got nothing to do with Eldar or Necrons or whatever.
Wargame Red Dragon has over 1500 units and the developers have made the vast majority of them usable as well as every single faction. 17 factions all competitive and balanced. It is a video game, but lessons can be learned from it on how to make a balanced game. If people apply their intelligence to solve problems amazing things can be accomplished. But I guess a miniatures game with a few hundred units is just out of the question.
MWHistorian wrote: How all of a sudden everyone was a fan of Whitescars?
I think we need to be a little bit fair, people might genuinely have wanted to collect "whatever" but when "whatever" sucks balls on the table the motivation to buy hundreds of dollars of models and spend hundreds of hours assembling/painting them is significantly lowered compared to when "whatever" actually gives you a good chance of winning the game.
Jetbike armies are cool. I imagine there's a ton of people who like the idea of a fluffy Eldar jetbike army. Them being awesome just adds the impetus to do it.
Can't blame the players for GW's crappy rules that encourage certain armies and certain builds.
If you have to attempt to balance your game after spending a metric ton on the rules, how about playing a different game?
Seriously, there are ton to choose from. Some can even be played proxying with 40k minis. If you're a competitive player, move on to another game that actually treats you as a valued customer/respectable player instead of labeling you and shunning...
TheKbob wrote: If you have to attempt to balance your game after spending a metric ton on the rules, how about playing a different game?
Seriously, there are ton to choose from. Some can even be played proxying with 40k minis. If you're a competitive player, move on to another game that actually treats you as a valued customer/respectable player instead of labeling you and shunning...
SHUN... SHHHUUUNNN... sssssssss
This. Just wait out the storm until either A) They nerf Eldar or B) Buff your army so they can stand up to it. Personally, I'm playing Bolt Action/Black Powde.Infinity and 30k until the dumbness of Decurion and Scatterbikes are mitigated somehow.
Also, remember, banning units doesn't work because of GW's terrible game model. If you banned Wave Serpents before, now a player is left with just Wave Serpents as the "non-OP" unit of choice. The poor dude that had his fluffy wraith army that was overly costed and hoping you rolled poorly on to-wound rolls is not "WAAC, TFG, TRIHARD".
And it's not even his fault.
It's all goal post shifting by 40k's player base. You all keep pointing the fingers at each other when there's a common denominator that's the real problem.
Vaktathi wrote: To be fair, DE always seem to do poorly against IG. I almost never beat them with my CSM's, but I don't think I've ever had a game with IG, even the crappy 3.5E codex, against DE that wasn't painfully one sided against the DE.
Yeah, it seems like with my Drop Pod Salamanders I just cream IG left and right, but any victories my DE earn against IG are won by the skin of my teeth.
TheKbob wrote: Also, remember, banning units doesn't work because of GW's terrible game model. If you banned Wave Serpents before, now a player is left with just Wave Serpents as the "non-OP" unit of choice. The poor dude that had his fluffy wraith army that was overly costed and hoping you rolled poorly on to-wound rolls is not "WAAC, TFG, TRIHARD".
And it's not even his fault.
It's all goal post shifting by 40k's player base. You all keep pointing the fingers at each other when there's a common denominator that's the real problem.
This exactly. Its like the peasants are fighting amongst themselves and lords of the castle are indifferent at best. They're the problem, not the players.
TheKbob wrote: Also, remember, banning units doesn't work because of GW's terrible game model. If you banned Wave Serpents before, now a player is left with just Wave Serpents as the "non-OP" unit of choice. The poor dude that had his fluffy wraith army that was overly costed and hoping you rolled poorly on to-wound rolls is not "WAAC, TFG, TRIHARD".
And it's not even his fault.
It's all goal post shifting by 40k's player base. You all keep pointing the fingers at each other when there's a common denominator that's the real problem.
This exactly. Its like the peasants are fighting amongst themselves and lords of the castle are indifferent at best. They're the problem, not the players.
Agreed. Unfortunately no one seems to have any workable solutions to the problem.
WayneTheGame wrote: This stinks of segregation. "Get outta here, Eldar player! We don't want your kind 'round these parts!"
It literally is segregation. I saw someone in another thread suggest "Eldar-only" tournaments, where Eldar players go to play against each other, and everyone else plays in normal events where Eldar are naturally not allowed.
Again, if 1 single army is clearly out of line, like say having 1 point reaver titans, do you think they should be in the same tournament with the other armies?
People already commonly ban tons of super-heavies, horus heresy armies, and sometimes forgeworld, and you don't hear a huge stink about it. Why is this different?
I personally know a guy who has An extremely well done HH army that is a whopping "meh" on the competitive aspect. (I tabled him with 40k blood angels last time we played.) Why can't he bring that army to a tourney? Why aren't people being all "well I'll just not play these people that insist on not playing against 30k marines!" about that?
Magic tournaments work great because of formats. No one complains that they can't throw down black lotuses and moxes in standard. It's already known that a vintage deck has no place in common tournaments, as it's not really fun for anyone to watch it bulldoze everyone it comes up against. It needs to play other vintage decks.
I suggested that if the eldar players wanted to be in a tourney, for the interest of both them and other army players having fun, they need to be in their own format, otherwise it's like one of those late-dragonball Z tournaments where super saiyans and joke human characters are in the same tournament. As a joke human, you'd literally only make it as far as the matchups let you, until you ran into a dbz main character and auto-lost.
TheKbob wrote: Also, remember, banning units doesn't work because of GW's terrible game model. If you banned Wave Serpents before, now a player is left with just Wave Serpents as the "non-OP" unit of choice. The poor dude that had his fluffy wraith army that was overly costed and hoping you rolled poorly on to-wound rolls is not "WAAC, TFG, TRIHARD".
And it's not even his fault.
It's all goal post shifting by 40k's player base. You all keep pointing the fingers at each other when there's a common denominator that's the real problem.
This exactly. Its like the peasants are fighting amongst themselves and lords of the castle are indifferent at best. They're the problem, not the players.
Agreed. Unfortunately no one seems to have any workable solutions to the problem.
A solution is to play a different game with better rules and a better company.
So you pay, lets say $500 for a book and bunch of models, build them, paint them, all that gak, then your friend comes in with the same investment, but you auto win due to your codex being a monstrosity created by the minds of some power hungry 1/2 " pecker who in joint, gives OTHER power hungry asshats the same pleasure?
Yeah.... That's why these same players never find games. We have a few dozen come around at our local stores and GWs, they walk out disappointed and even ESCORTED out when people don't want to play against their 3 Wraithknight / 3 Riptide + R'Vanna armies. That's no ones fault but their own for being so ridiculous in a game that is supposed to bring people together and have fun. You go out and bring some boring list with 0 competence on your part just so you can feel big and strong within a GAME? People deserve what they get, segregation.
TheKbob wrote: If you have to attempt to balance your game after spending a metric ton on the rules, how about playing a different game?
Seriously, there are ton to choose from. Some can even be played proxying with 40k minis. If you're a competitive player, move on to another game that actually treats you as a valued customer/respectable player instead of labeling you and shunning...
SHUN... SHHHUUUNNN... sssssssss
What rules system would you recommend for 40k models? Genuine question, is there any rules system that actually covers the range of 40k models somewhat decently?
TheKbob wrote: If you have to attempt to balance your game after spending a metric ton on the rules, how about playing a different game?
Seriously, there are ton to choose from. Some can even be played proxying with 40k minis. If you're a competitive player, move on to another game that actually treats you as a valued customer/respectable player instead of labeling you and shunning...
SHUN... SHHHUUUNNN... sssssssss
What rules system would you recommend for 40k models? Genuine question, is there any rules system that actually covers the range of 40k models somewhat decently?
I would like to hear this too. If there is a rule system where I can play my no-centurions no-IoM-ally-cheese BA army against my friends' tau, crons, and eldar, and actually be on even footing, I'd like to know about it.
GoliothOnline wrote: So you pay, lets say $500 for a book and bunch of models, build them, paint them, all that gak, then your friend comes in with the same investment, but you auto win due to your codex being a monstrosity created by the minds of some power hungry 1/2 " pecker who in joint, gives OTHER power hungry asshats the same pleasure?
Yeah.... That's why these same players never find games. We have a few dozen come around at our local stores and GWs, they walk out disappointed and even ESCORTED out when people don't want to play against their 3 Wraithknight / 3 Riptide + R'Vanna armies. That's no ones fault but their own for being so ridiculous in a game that is supposed to bring people together and have fun. You go out and bring some boring list with 0 competence on your part just so you can feel big and strong within a GAME? People deserve what they get, segregation.
That is the source of the problem. Not all armies are created equal. Normally this is manageable, but with the new Eldar codex we have the case of certain units in the book being leagues better than anything other armies can field. It's perfectly fine to restrict or ban certain army lists within a casual/friendly context, but banning an entire army within that context is going too far.
niv-mizzet wrote: I'd say if 7e eldar are allowable in a game, all FW and 30k should be allowable as well.
Maybe I can build a really broken 30k list to put up a fight.
I'm pretty sure that has been GW's intent since 5E - you buy it, you play it. No restrictions on Flyers, Unbound, Forgeworld, etc. Players should be allowed to play any and all of their models without restriction.
niv-mizzet wrote: I'd say if 7e eldar are allowable in a game, all FW and 30k should be allowable as well.
Maybe I can build a really broken 30k list to put up a fight.
I'm pretty sure that has been GW's intent since 5E - you buy it, you play it. No restrictions on Flyers, Unbound, Forgeworld, etc. Players should be allowed to play any and all of their models without restriction.
I actually pretty vehemently disagree with this conceptually, but I can understand the business decision. I wonder how many they are going to drive to e-gaming over the long haul, though. I'm probably going on hiatus again once this codex becomes over 50% of my opponents. There are no scatbikes in Starcraft.
This is another great example of why I refuse to commit more than minimal money to GW. Just enough to keep one list up to date. No more.
GoliothOnline wrote: So you pay, lets say $500 for a book and bunch of models, build them, paint them, all that gak, then your friend comes in with the same investment, but you auto win due to your codex being a monstrosity created by the minds of some power hungry 1/2 " pecker who in joint, gives OTHER power hungry asshats the same pleasure?
Yeah.... That's why these same players never find games. We have a few dozen come around at our local stores and GWs, they walk out disappointed and even ESCORTED out when people don't want to play against their 3 Wraithknight / 3 Riptide + R'Vanna armies. That's no ones fault but their own for being so ridiculous in a game that is supposed to bring people together and have fun. You go out and bring some boring list with 0 competence on your part just so you can feel big and strong within a GAME? People deserve what they get, segregation.
You do realize that you're playing a PvP game. And the whole goal is to win. By banning more powerful models, you're actively saying that your opponent cannot have their brand of fun, they must subscribe to your own SO THAT YOU CAN HAVE A CHANCE TO WIN YOUR WAY. Sounds like those style of players are actually the bad ones and they are known as scrubs in other gaming scenes (http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub).
There are other games that use the same base scale, like Infinity and the soon to be Maelstrom's Edge, but if you want to resuse overpriced tanks and monsters, that's a no go, I agree. But continuing to play a busted ass game just because you sunk $1000+ into it is the sunk cost fallacy. Remember, it's just a matter of time before the way you want to play is either laughable bad or monstrously broken. And then you're either getting steamrolled or pointed at as that "WAACTFG TRIHARD" and that'll suck for you.
If you enjoy the true hobby of GW, buying and collecting their stuff, great. But their game is awful. There are tons of better games out there, but that's not really fair as any game that even remotely tries at a comprehensive rules set will achieve that status.
" Sounds like those style of players are actually the bad ones and they are known as scrubs in other gaming scenes "
Not really. Having blatantly overpowered units cheapens the overall decision process in both list construction and play on the table.
Going back to Starcraft, there is the additional balancing factor of in-game infrastructure to field carriers or battlecruisers. 40K could really use something like that.
Martel732 wrote: " Sounds like those style of players are actually the bad ones and they are known as scrubs in other gaming scenes "
Not really. Having blatantly overpowered units cheapens the overall decision process in both list construction and play on the table.
Going back to Starcraft, there is the additional balancing factor of in-game infrastructure to field carriers or battlecruisers. 40K could really use something like that.
In an actively maintained game, I would agree. But at this point, there is no active design; no rhythm to the madness. Maybe this is the new power level GW wants? Maybe this isn't? We honestly do not know.
Starcraft is a video game and poor comparison. I'd sooner choose some of the other games with strong competitive scenes, primarily Warmachine. Items come out, Doom & Gloom, and if it's legitly broken, it gets fixed. FAST.
This Eldar nonsense is overpowered, but not every new release is. The 40k community is very much about banning this and banning that, creating navel gazing house rules, and a bunch of people that want their special snowflake of a list to be competitive versus realizing they're playing a book, an army, not the "3rd company of such 'n such". And now the game is literally bring anything you want. Even remotely complaining about balance is laughable. Because at that point, you start banning things, but then everyone is left unhappy at some point because all it takes is on GW goof up and you're out your army for months, years...?
GW is plagued with Scrub mentality, mainly because GW is bad at rules writing. It's the only game system with the "WAAC" attitude towards someone trying to build the best army out of their book. In every other game, that's called strategy. In 40k, it's being TFG. So yes, my stance stands.
niv-mizzet wrote: I'd say if 7e eldar are allowable in a game, all FW and 30k should be allowable as well.
Maybe I can build a really broken 30k list to put up a fight.
I'm pretty sure that has been GW's intent since 5E - you buy it, you play it. No restrictions on Flyers, Unbound, Forgeworld, etc. Players should be allowed to play any and all of their models without restriction.
I actually pretty vehemently disagree with this conceptually, but I can understand the business decision. I wonder how many they are going to drive to e-gaming over the long haul, though. I'm probably going on hiatus again once this codex becomes over 50% of my opponents. There are no scatbikes in Starcraft.
This is another great example of why I refuse to commit more than minimal money to GW. Just enough to keep one list up to date. No more.
We're actually in the same place as far as GW spend goes. I've been passively just not buying GW stuff. The last Codex I bought from GW was CSM over 2 years ago. I haven't been bothered with getting the new "Imperial Guard" or Eldar Codex, still using the 5E Codices for both of them. Haven't bought any new GW minis since 2012 (a single metal Crusader before GW moved it to FailCrap).
Though the noise here is really getting me to consider switching focus from IG over to Eldar, which I haven't played or worked on in ages.
Maybe we're talking past each other. I don't expect players to self-police, which is why I advocate systematic balancing. If that means bans, so be it.
TheKbob wrote: GW is plagued with Scrub mentality, mainly because GW is bad at rules writing. It's the only game system with the "WAAC" attitude towards someone trying to build the best army out of their book. In every other game, that's called strategy. In 40k, it's being TFG. So yes, my stance stands.
I agree. If you can't adapt to play at the top tiers, that's on you. Not crying "cheese" and trying to ban stuff.
Unbound with Forgeworld is how GW expects people to play, not houseruled "scrub" style.
The best bit is that most of these scrubs were the ones who used to complain so bitterly about comp, before GW rolled Apoc and Flyers into 40k
I've been thinking about whether it would be worth trying to get people back into playing 5th edition. I realize it's not perfect obviously (no 40k version ever has been), but I felt it was one of the best attempts at getting the game balanced. The biggest offenders of the edition (Grey Knights and Necrons) seem to pale in comparison to the newer Necrons and especially the upcoming Eldar.
I don't want to make light of the investment people have put into their models, but I think that the rules hold a tenuous value to the game as whole, especially since GW seems content to invalidate entire army builds every few years. The rules for older editions come cheap (or can easily be found online), and 5th still covers most everything going on now, minus flyers, superheavies, and a couple of miscellaneous new models. I feel that this is a good alternative to those who dislike the trend GW is taking with the game but still very much enjoy the game that has existed these last 30 years. I'd like to see what the rest of you think.
Martel732 wrote: Maybe we're talking past each other. I don't expect players to self-police, which is why I advocate systematic balancing. If that means bans, so be it.
I believe it's not the player's responsibility to balance the game. You're paying for it. It should be the game designers. Instead of imposing self limits, if the game is that badly broken, players should quit. Stop supporting it is the real answer, not patch it up. Because once the latter mentality sets in, it's definitely a slippery slope issue of people arguing what is and is not balanced. That leads to players having their collections invalidated. It's not an Eldar players fault GW just gave them the Codex on high, but now they're double shunned for it? That's stupid.
TheKbob wrote: GW is plagued with Scrub mentality, mainly because GW is bad at rules writing. It's the only game system with the "WAAC" attitude towards someone trying to build the best army out of their book. In every other game, that's called strategy. In 40k, it's being TFG. So yes, my stance stands.
I agree. If you can't adapt to play at the top tiers, that's on you. Not crying "cheese" and trying to ban stuff.
Unbound with Forgeworld is how GW expects people to play, not houseruled "scrub" style.
The best bit is that most of these scrubs were the ones who used to complain so bitterly about comp, before GW rolled Apoc and Flyers into 40k
If that's what they expect, I'm out. I'm not laying out that kind of $$.
If you enjoy the true hobby of GW, buying and collecting their stuff, great. But their game is awful. There are tons of better games out there, but that's not really fair as any game that even remotely tries at a comprehensive rules set will achieve that status.
I've never in 2+ decades had a problem playing the game with actual people, who also wanted to play the game. There are tons of games out there, but not a single one that allows you to recreate large-scale, scifi themed battles with collections of models. I mean, literally, not one.
If another company had a catalogue of decent miniatures remotely the size of 40k (I mean, even 1/3 the models), and a gaming system to play hundred-plus model games, there's the possibility I'd jump ship -- but nobody else has even tried.
GoliothOnline wrote: So you pay, lets say $500 for a book and bunch of models, build them, paint them, all that gak, then your friend comes in with the same investment, but you auto win due to your codex being a monstrosity created by the minds of some power hungry 1/2 " pecker who in joint, gives OTHER power hungry asshats the same pleasure?
Yeah.... That's why these same players never find games. We have a few dozen come around at our local stores and GWs, they walk out disappointed and even ESCORTED out when people don't want to play against their 3 Wraithknight / 3 Riptide + R'Vanna armies. That's no ones fault but their own for being so ridiculous in a game that is supposed to bring people together and have fun. You go out and bring some boring list with 0 competence on your part just so you can feel big and strong within a GAME? People deserve what they get, segregation.
You do realize that you're playing a PvP game. And the whole goal is to win. By banning more powerful models, you're actively saying that your opponent cannot have their brand of fun, they must subscribe to your own SO THAT YOU CAN HAVE A CHANCE TO WIN YOUR WAY. Sounds like those style of players are actually the bad ones and they are known as scrubs in other gaming scenes (http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub).
There are other games that use the same base scale, like Infinity and the soon to be Maelstrom's Edge, but if you want to resuse overpriced tanks and monsters, that's a no go, I agree. But continuing to play a busted ass game just because you sunk $1000+ into it is the sunk cost fallacy. Remember, it's just a matter of time before the way you want to play is either laughable bad or monstrously broken. And then you're either getting steamrolled or pointed at as that "WAACTFG TRIHARD" and that'll suck for you.
If you enjoy the true hobby of GW, buying and collecting their stuff, great. But their game is awful. There are tons of better games out there, but that's not really fair as any game that even remotely tries at a comprehensive rules set will achieve that status.
It's more like banning x things is an attempt to bring back a SANE baseline. Again, if I had 1 point reaver titans, you would obviously flip stances on the issue, as that would be clearly out of line, and an easy fix. Really all I heard from your post is "you don't want to put up your army just to be a punching bag for me, you must be a tryhardwaacscrub!"
I don't think most pro magic players are scrubs just because they aren't going to play against a vintage deck with their latest standard deck. I mean, they might do it for fun, but that takes all of like 3 minutes for them to get stomped and move on. If it was a 3 hour game, you can bet they'd decline.
The banned/restricted list in mtg works pretty well, and you don't hear a lot of complaints about it. (Maybe because the company behind the game takes an active stance on making the game balanced and working properly.)
Sadly a lot of people have fanatical faith in word-of-god. As in, if TO's all decided that the WK needed to cost 410, +45 for each heavy wraith cannon, people would throw all kinds of fits and arguments. If GW put it in a book like that, then there's only the normal few people who might try to argue the cost.
Personally I think we should empower people like FLG who have taken an active interest in the competitive game, and let them tweak the rules so that we get a better game overall. I trust a team of tournament players far more than GW's "let's throw a chapter master on a sleigh!" Design team.
TheKbob wrote: Also, remember, banning units doesn't work because of GW's terrible game model. If you banned Wave Serpents before, now a player is left with just Wave Serpents as the "non-OP" unit of choice. The poor dude that had his fluffy wraith army that was overly costed and hoping you rolled poorly on to-wound rolls is not "WAAC, TFG, TRIHARD".
And it's not even his fault.
It's all goal post shifting by 40k's player base. You all keep pointing the fingers at each other when there's a common denominator that's the real problem.
This exactly. Its like the peasants are fighting amongst themselves and lords of the castle are indifferent at best. They're the problem, not the players.
Agreed. Unfortunately no one seems to have any workable solutions to the problem.
A solution is to play a different game with better rules and a better company.
And let all my time and money spent on my armies go down the drain? Not a viable solution.
TheKbob wrote: Also, remember, banning units doesn't work because of GW's terrible game model. If you banned Wave Serpents before, now a player is left with just Wave Serpents as the "non-OP" unit of choice. The poor dude that had his fluffy wraith army that was overly costed and hoping you rolled poorly on to-wound rolls is not "WAAC, TFG, TRIHARD".
And it's not even his fault.
It's all goal post shifting by 40k's player base. You all keep pointing the fingers at each other when there's a common denominator that's the real problem.
This exactly. Its like the peasants are fighting amongst themselves and lords of the castle are indifferent at best. They're the problem, not the players.
Agreed. Unfortunately no one seems to have any workable solutions to the problem.
A solution is to play a different game with better rules and a better company.
And let all my time and money spent on my armies go down the drain? Not a viable solution.
I'd rather not sink more time and money after the bad.
Talys wrote: If another company had a catalogue of decent miniatures remotely the size of 40k (I mean, even 1/3 the models), and a gaming system to play hundred-plus model games, there's the possibility I'd jump ship -- but nobody else has even tried.
The capital costs of setting up such a range are unfathomable without a GW revenue base. Sure, Hasbro could do it, but why? They're already making money hand over fist.
You do realize that you're playing a PvP game. And the whole goal is to win.
And for 25+ years, I thought the whole goal was to have fun recreating apocalyptic scifi battles. Dang, I knew I was missing out on something.
I think the vast majority of people who play 40k enjoy the competitive aspect of playing two armies against each other and trying to win. Like every sport, every game, every activity that people play, they enjoy the structure and rules and set out to best their opponent and be labeled the champion (no matter how small that victory is)
If the game devolves to the point where you might as well make up the rules, it becomes two people holding their models up saying "I got you! No you didn't, this SM captain has a force field!" and playing imaginary isn't something I want to do with an army that costs about $500.
And my Starcraft marines never miss and have awesome dps. Kinda the reverse of Astartes.
I'll also point out that I laid down my hand on Everquest and WoW, and I'm not afraid to fold on this game as well. Regardless of investment up until this point.
I've never in 2+ decades had a problem playing the game with actual people, who also wanted to play the game. There are tons of games out there, but not a single one that allows you to recreate large-scale, scifi themed battles with collections of models. I mean, literally, not one.
If another company had a catalogue of decent miniatures remotely the size of 40k (I mean, even 1/3 the models), and a gaming system to play hundred-plus model games, there's the possibility I'd jump ship -- but nobody else has even tried.
Nobody tries because GW has glutted the market with said miniatures. It's not a matter of making a better product, it's that competing in that arena introduces you to the inability to sell minis because people will just use 40k stuff.
The best thing for players to do if they want that setting, but not have it be garbage, is to either get the message across to GW or let them fail. Simple as that.
I've never in 2+ decades had a problem playing the game with actual people, who also wanted to play the game. There are tons of games out there, but not a single one that allows you to recreate large-scale, scifi themed battles with collections of models. I mean, literally, not one.
If another company had a catalogue of decent miniatures remotely the size of 40k (I mean, even 1/3 the models), and a gaming system to play hundred-plus model games, there's the possibility I'd jump ship -- but nobody else has even tried.
Nobody tries because GW has glutted the market with said miniatures. It's not a matter of making a better product, it's that competing in that arena introduces you to the inability to sell minis because people will just use 40k stuff.
The best thing for players to do if they want that setting, but not have it be garbage, is to either get the message across to GW or let them fail. Simple as that.
You do realize that you're playing a PvP game. And the whole goal is to win.
And for 25+ years, I thought the whole goal was to have fun recreating apocalyptic scifi battles. Dang, I knew I was missing out on something.
I think the vast majority of people who play 40k enjoy the competitive aspect of playing two armies against each other and trying to win. Like every sport, every game, every activity that people play, they enjoy the structure and rules and set out to best their opponent and be labeled the champion (no matter how small that victory is)
If the game devolves to the point where you might as well make up the rules, it becomes two people holding their models up saying "I got you! No you didn't, this SM captain has a force field!" and playing imaginary isn't something I want to do with an army that costs about $500.
I doubt that. If it's about "besting" the other player competitively, cheap chess-sets or a set of poker-cards go for a dollar or two (and tournaments can win you millions of dollars). If I spend the kinda money 40K requires (with no pay-out or even bragging rights comparable to chess, poker, golf, etc.., for competitive events), I'm looking for spectacle and escapism, not competition.
I doubt that. If it's about "besting" the other player competitively, cheap chess-sets or a set of poker-cards go for a dollar or two (and tournaments can win you millions of dollars). If I spend the kinda money 40K requires (with no pay-out or even bragging rights comparable to chess, poker, golf, etc.., for competitive events), I'm looking for spectacle and escapism, not competition.
Then why invest in a game that requires further emotional/intellectual investment to make sure you have Fun™ versus the plenitude of others which don't require that and, likely, are much cheaper?
I wonder if there's anything stopping someone from making "WarMace 41000," just making rulebooks for factions that look suspiciously like GW factions, and then just not making models.
Just put in the rules for a unit the size of the model, and let them use what they want.
I doubt that. If it's about "besting" the other player competitively, cheap chess-sets or a set of poker-cards go for a dollar or two (and tournaments can win you millions of dollars). If I spend the kinda money 40K requires (with no pay-out or even bragging rights comparable to chess, poker, golf, etc.., for competitive events), I'm looking for spectacle and escapism, not competition.
Then why invest in a game that requires further emotional/intellectual investment to make sure you have Fun™ versus the plenitude of others which don't require that and, likely, are much cheaper?
Because blowing the gak out of xenos scum and or having my Chapter master give the smack down on some MCs is awesome and I love it. And I can't do that anywhere else. If I could, I'd leave in a minute
You do realize that you're playing a PvP game. And the whole goal is to win.
And for 25+ years, I thought the whole goal was to have fun recreating apocalyptic scifi battles. Dang, I knew I was missing out on something.
I think the vast majority of people who play 40k enjoy the competitive aspect of playing two armies against each other and trying to win. Like every sport, every game, every activity that people play, they enjoy the structure and rules and set out to best their opponent and be labeled the champion (no matter how small that victory is)
If the game devolves to the point where you might as well make up the rules, it becomes two people holding their models up saying "I got you! No you didn't, this SM captain has a force field!" and playing imaginary isn't something I want to do with an army that costs about $500.
I doubt that. If it's about "besting" the other player competitively, cheap chess-sets or a set of poker-cards go for a dollar or two (and tournaments can win you millions of dollars). If I spend the kinda money 40K requires (with no pay-out or even bragging rights comparable to chess, poker, golf, etc.., for competitive events), I'm looking for spectacle and escapism, not competition.
But you are looking for some level of balance, yes? Don't get me wrong, I'm not equating what people want out of 40k with some sort of ruthless, cut-throat version of competition. Most 40k players are like middle-tier tennis players, they don't have the drive for the insanity of trying to play in the big leagues, but at the same time they value the balance of the game where their own decisions, strategy and technique player the biggest role in the game. Were the middle-leaguers suddenly getting an unfair advantage (let's say steroids for example), there would be a great deal of complaining and you'd start to see people dropping out because the legitimacy of the game has come into question.
Additionally, everyone enjoys a little randomness here and there, but for the game to become permeated to the point where most of your decisions come at the flip of a coin...well, I think that is one of the bigger failings of 40k today and why you see it going down in revenue generation.
And for the portion of 40k fandom who is cited as just collecting without playing the game, I say that the idea of the game at the end of the road is just as important. It's like playing an MMO from the beginning- the promise of what's to come drives people onward, and if that end-goal becomes eroded, the number of people playing will start to drop.
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niv-mizzet wrote: I wonder if there's anything stopping someone from making "WarMace 41000," just making rulebooks for factions that look suspiciously like GW factions, and then just not making models.
Just put in the rules for a unit the size of the model, and let them use what they want.
There's honestly not a lot to stop you from doing it. The hard part would be getting people to universally accept these rules as what they use. Heck, people spit on the idea of playing older versions of 40k like it's sacrilegious, let alone playing a whole other ruleset. It's an authority issue.
The closest thing I've seen to success with this is the Heralds of Ruin Kill-team rules. Those seem to have done well-ish because 40k's version of Kill-team is (a) poor and (b) expensive and (c) not advertised out of fear that it would leech sales from the Apoc-style 40k they've got going now.
GW is plagued with Scrub mentality, mainly because GW is bad at rules writing. It's the only game system with the "WAAC" attitude towards someone trying to build the best army out of their book. In every other game, that's called strategy. In 40k, it's being TFG. So yes, my stance stands.
Wierd cos I have found exactly the same thing playing:
Judge Dredd
ACTA
Malifaux
Warmachine/Hordes
Magic
Uncharted Seas
Bolt Action
Star Wars
There are always good and bad lists, styles of play, rules and people who are TFG in every system - GW just make the situaition so much worse with their poor rules /Balance. IF 40K wa gone all the those WAAC / TFG players just find something new in which they can argue every minor detail and rule point over and cheese their way to victory regardless of the envrionment..................
On the other hand at our club we now mostly have fun with adapting 40K (and other systems) to a level or style that suits us.
its not perfect - but it never will be with ANY system.
Martel732 wrote: "its not perfect - but it never will be with ANY system. "
There are degrees of imperfection, though.
Oh agreed - GW do seem to be trying their hardest to screw over the game..........nice models and love the background but the Eldar Codex is just a kick in the teeth for everyone.
I will agree with others who are more pro-40k and say this: the most reent Skitarii release was, to me, largely a success. They priced the rangers fairly, the book was better-priced and not game-breaking, and the esthetics were good. The walkers were a bit on the expensive side (especially for what they could do in the game), but overall I saw it favorably, more so than the Harlequin release which I saw as okay.
With this Eldar release- well, I like the models but good God they made a mess of the rules. I'm surprised they didn't learn from WHFB 7th edition Daemons, whose imbalance helped bring about the demise of the whole damn game!
Wierd cos I have found exactly the same thing playing:
Judge Dredd ACTA Malifaux Warmachine/Hordes Magic Uncharted Seas Bolt Action Star Wars
There are always good and bad lists, styles of play, rules and people who are TFG in every system - GW just make the situaition so much worse with their poor rules /Balance. IF 40K wa gone all the those WAAC / TFG players just find something new in which they can argue every minor detail and rule point over and cheese their way to victory regardless of the envrionment..................
On the other hand at our club we now mostly have fun with adapting 40K (and other systems) to a level or style that suits us.
its not perfect - but it never will be with ANY system.
No, it's not. There are scrubs in every game, yes. Those who think things are overpowered because they're either bad players, on a limited budget, or fail to comprehend list building strategy. But all of those games, the ones I have played at least, do no fail in the rules development or game play departments anywhere near as bad as GW. Even insinuating as such shows huge naivete.
A jerk of a player will be a jerk in any system. Playing to win is not synonymous with being a jerk. All those games, at least the ones I play, are built on bringing your A game, not your B tier, calling it "fluffy" and then complaining because you lost because X, Y, Z is overpowered. There are bad lists, but that's the player's fault for not using correct strategy. There's not amount of rules balancing in the world that will correct this unless you play chess or mirror matches. The best balance is having near 100% of a faction be usable in lateral style choices that excel in one instance, but fail in another. You then build your list to excel in one area, as most games pivot on the notion of maximizing strengths versus shoring up weaknesses. Then, games have unique functions to mitigate said weaknesses, like Malifaux in their list building style or Warmachine with their 2 list format.
GW fails because it has neither unit parity (and unit parity changes every two years with their broken codex system) nor a system to ensure weaknesses are covered with their static list format. Given the game is now literally bring anything you want, you desperately need the latter. And the latter would ensure their's less chance of having a poor match up and making games fair.
Flat out, you're paying the most money for the most broken rules and then saying it's on the players to self-correct and self-police. And then getting mad at those who don't subscribe to your very specific style of fun. That's moronic at best and toxic at worst. If you make it work for a small group of people, huzzah! But at that point, why even spend money on the rules?
It's "All Boys Club, No Girls Allowed". Just change boys with your local group and girls with the flavor of the month release that GW broke. It so happens to be Eldar... again. The compromise should be on what game to play, not on what is or is not allowed in the confines of $100+ rules.
Nobody tries because GW has glutted the market with said miniatures. It's not a matter of making a better product, it's that competing in that arena introduces you to the inability to sell minis because people will just use 40k stuff.
The best thing for players to do if they want that setting, but not have it be garbage, is to either get the message across to GW or let them fail. Simple as that.
So, to hurt GW, I should deprive myself of something I enjoy? Ummm.... I'll pass, thanks
Nobody tries because GW has glutted the market with said miniatures. It's not a matter of making a better product, it's that competing in that arena introduces you to the inability to sell minis because people will just use 40k stuff.
The best thing for players to do if they want that setting, but not have it be garbage, is to either get the message across to GW or let them fail. Simple as that.
So, to hurt GW, I should deprive myself of something I enjoy? Ummm.... I'll pass, thanks
Yeah, he tried this noise on me in the rumours thread too.
So, to hurt GW, I should deprive myself of something I enjoy? Ummm.... I'll pass, thanks
With such faulty logic, then sure, pass. Critical thinking is an actual skill that folks choose to forgo when making reasoning based upon emotion (like sunk cost fallacy). If you choose to enjoy it and do, great! Just don't ever choose to impose your fun onto others. And if you suddenly have no opponents someday because other see different, then you're not going to be able to enjoy it.
Given the downward trend of GW lately, literal in terms of financials, you should be worried more so.
I doubt that. If it's about "besting" the other player competitively, cheap chess-sets or a set of poker-cards go for a dollar or two (and tournaments can win you millions of dollars). If I spend the kinda money 40K requires (with no pay-out or even bragging rights comparable to chess, poker, golf, etc.., for competitive events), I'm looking for spectacle and escapism, not competition.
Indeed -- you've described me pretty well That, and I enjoy socializing with friends concurrent with spectacle and escapism.
For me, there are so many other, better avenues of competition than tabletop wargames, that don't have barriers such as models. Tennis, golf, poker, and computer games, for me.
Yeah, he tried this noise on me in the rumours thread too.
If you mean use logic and reasoning? Sure. If you make 40k work for you and your friends, great, you did it. Just realize there are options out there that cost less and work better. Choosing inefficiency for fun is a valid option. Many people do it every day. Just don't ever complain about the consequences.
Yeah, he tried this noise on me in the rumours thread too.
If you mean use logic and reasoning? Sure. If you make 40k work for you and your friends, great, you did it. Just realize there are options out there that cost less and work better. Choosing inefficiency for fun is a valid option.
Telling people to stop enjoying something for no reason is not logical, Captain. Like I said in the other thread, you're actually allowed to enjoy 40k and other games. They don't lock you up for that.
Rippy wrote: I cannot wait for the flood of "I was just about to start a fluffy army with *enter all OP units* just by chance!" posts.
The two aren't mutually exclusive though. Now yes, spamming Jetbikes who just happen to have maxed out scatter lasers is a bit suspect, but Jetbikes alone with a variety of weapons isn't. Same with Wraiths. An all-Wraith army isn't necessarily chosen to be OP, it could just be that the player wants everything to be a Wraith unit. I know when I was considering it my army concept was no living models other than the Spiritseer, with vehicles built with closed cockpits and having wraithstones (I forget if that's what they're called) to show they were also wraith piloted.
Again: The problem with balance or lack thereof is on GW, not on the player. Someone fielding a Saim-Hann army can and should be able to field all Jetbikes, since that's their thing. If they only take scatter lasers it might be an indication that they're doing it solely for the power/cheese, but tarring and feathering anyone who takes a lot of Jetbikes with the same brush is a bit much.
I totally agree, though I think I have seen 5 people total on this forum saying they want a Saim-Hann army. Watch that number of people claim they have always wanted a Saim-Hann army though were just waiting for new models, and they just happen to have D weapon support.
Telling people to stop enjoying something for no reason is not logical, Captain.
Not my goal, Lieutenant. I'm trying to express how you're working against your own interests. There are many things in life where there are no right or wrong answers, but there are better. If you're happy spending tons of money on a plastic army manz game and then invest further effort to make it playable, go for it. It's not going to stop making GW a bad company or making a bad game. Eventually, they will piss off enough people and they will collapse. We have measurable proof of that every 6 months.
So, to hurt GW, I should deprive myself of something I enjoy? Ummm.... I'll pass, thanks
With such faulty logic, then sure, pass. Critical thinking is an actual skill that folks choose to forgo when making reasoning based upon emotion (like sunk cost fallacy). If you choose to enjoy it and do, great! Just don't ever choose to impose your fun onto others. And if you suddenly have no opponents someday because other see different, then you're not going to be able to enjoy it.
Given the downward trend of GW lately, literal in terms of financials, you should be worried more so.
All I'm saying is, I'd rather buy models I like and play a game that I like than to "punish" GW by not buying things that are attractive to me. If GW were to go out of business tomorrow, I'd still own about 300 years worth of models to craft and paint. I'd miss new models, but maybe then I'd get to all the factions I neglect
But seriously, about the game... call it what you will, but there are far more people that approach me to play 40k -- just through word of mouth and random meets in FLGS -- than I possibly have time for, and of them, a very high percentage are pretty fun folks that I get along with. I'm not in fear of not having like-minded 40k play partners.
I totally agree, though I think I have seen 5 people total on this forum saying they want a Saim-Hann army. Watch that number of people claim they have always wanted a Saim-Hann army though were just waiting for new models, and they just happen to have D weapon support.
So what are you going to tell those people with already built, painted, and played Iyanden armies? "Play something else, you WAAC TRIHARD", eh?
I had an Eldar army in the pipeline before I quit that would have been made absolutely nuts by this change. From powerful to facerolling. Guess it was my fault for picking said units in a previous edition, right?
Eventually, they will piss off enough people and they will collapse.
Or, you know, the other alternative... they won't. Most companies won't actually close up shop until they lose money, have no money, and can't borrow any money... in that order.
I totally agree, though I think I have seen 5 people total on this forum saying they want a Saim-Hann army. Watch that number of people claim they have always wanted a Saim-Hann army though were just waiting for new models, and they just happen to have D weapon support.
So what are you going to tell those people with already built, painted, and played Iyanden armies? "Play something else, you WAAC TRIHARD", eh?
I had an Eldar army in the pipeline before I quit that would have been made absolutely nuts by this change. From powerful to facerolling. Guess it was my fault for picking said units in a previous edition, right?
Clam down chops, no need to get defensive over nothing. Why are you trying to pick fights with everyone?
Wierd cos I have found exactly the same thing playing:
Judge Dredd
ACTA
Malifaux
Warmachine/Hordes
Magic
Uncharted Seas
Bolt Action
Star Wars
There are always good and bad lists, styles of play, rules and people who are TFG in every system - GW just make the situaition so much worse with their poor rules /Balance. IF 40K wa gone all the those WAAC / TFG players just find something new in which they can argue every minor detail and rule point over and cheese their way to victory regardless of the envrionment..................
On the other hand at our club we now mostly have fun with adapting 40K (and other systems) to a level or style that suits us.
its not perfect - but it never will be with ANY system.
No, it's not. There are scrubs in every game, yes. Those who think things are overpowered because they're either bad players, on a limited budget, or fail to comprehend list building strategy. But all of those games, the ones I have played at least, do no fail in the rules development or game play departments anywhere near as bad as GW. Even insinuating as such shows huge naivete.
A jerk of a player will be a jerk in any system. Playing to win is not synonymous with being a jerk. All those games, at least the ones I play, are built on bringing your A game, not your B tier, calling it "fluffy" and then complaining because you lost because X, Y, Z is overpowered. There are bad lists, but that's the player's fault for not using correct strategy. There's not amount of rules balancing in the world that will correct this unless you play chess or mirror matches. The best balance is having near 100% of a faction be usable in lateral style choices that excel in one instance, but fail in another. You then build your list to excel in one area, as most games pivot on the notion of maximizing strengths versus shoring up weaknesses. Then, games have unique functions to mitigate said weaknesses, like Malifaux in their list building style or Warmachine with their 2 list format.
GW fails because it has neither unit parity (and unit parity changes every two years with their broken codex system) nor a system to ensure weaknesses are covered with their static list format. Given the game is now literally bring anything you want, you desperately need the latter. And the latter would ensure their's less chance of having a poor match up and making games fair.
Flat out, you're paying the most money for the most broken rules and then saying it's on the players to self-correct and self-police. And then getting mad at those who don't subscribe to your very specific style of fun. That's moronic at best and toxic at worst. If you make it work for a small group of people, huzzah! But at that point, why even spend money on the rules?
It's "All Boys Club, No Girls Allowed". Just change boys with your local group and girls with the flavor of the month release that GW broke. It so happens to be Eldar... again. The compromise should be on what game to play, not on what is or is not allowed in the confines of $100+ rules.
Nope sorry - we live and play in different worlds - we want different things from our games - whatever system it is - most of us at our club are older, probably tierder and usually playing after long days work and quite a few of us just want to watch stuff blow up, chat about the game and play with pretty models etc, winning is nice but we don't always even finish the games or care who wins - we played a 3 player Malifaux last night just really to work on our rules knowledge for one guy who is looking to go to a tounrey..
We don't bring "my A game" or "A list" half the time - we bring stuff to have a fun game - we sometimes make descisions based on what sounds fun or would be what the model might do - or just cos we fancy seeing what happens.....
Toxic and Moronic am I - jeez - whats your Fking issue mate? - your posts on here are in fact repeative and toxic - F this game, play another - over and over again - we get it - the records broken......... Can you even see down from the lofty height at which you are sitting??
I spend money of stuff I like - cos I can - we use the 40k rules as a base - cos we mostly like the 40k rules - but not the balance - see the difference?
I buy and like cool models and pretty and interesting sourcebook as something to read and look at......do you get that - or are we not allowed to work and play like this in your little perfect world ?
[quotet]hose who think things are overpowered
And I guess form this statement that perhaps you favour always using the most pwoerful (not at all OP) thing you can find as as your "A Game" and its totally only your skill that wins you games - never anything inherenet in the pwoer level of given units/rules/styles etc.............sheesh.
I totally agree, though I think I have seen 5 people total on this forum saying they want a Saim-Hann army. Watch that number of people claim they have always wanted a Saim-Hann army though were just waiting for new models, and they just happen to have D weapon support.
So what are you going to tell those people with already built, painted, and played Iyanden armies? "Play something else, you WAAC TRIHARD", eh?
I had an Eldar army in the pipeline before I quit that would have been made absolutely nuts by this change. From powerful to facerolling. Guess it was my fault for picking said units in a previous edition, right?
If it's a competition, just follow the competition rules.
If it's between friends and you can't make the Wraith units work, just make Distort weapons work like 6e.
Telling people to stop enjoying something for no reason is not logical, Captain.
Not my goal, Lieutenant. I'm trying to express how you're working against your own interests. There are many things in life where there are no right or wrong answers, but there are better. If you're happy spending tons of money on a plastic army manz game and then invest further effort to make it playable, go for it. It's not going to stop making GW a bad company or making a bad game. Eventually, they will piss off enough people and they will collapse. We have measurable proof of that every 6 months.
*shrug*
I'm working against my interest in playing 40k by playing 40k?
Or, you know, the other alternative... they won't. Most companies won't actually close up shop until they lose money, have no money, and can't borrow any money... in that order.
You weren't around when we had these discussions (or at least I don't recall you apart of them), but the general rule of thumb is about 18-24 months for that cycle to happen once a company is trapped in it. There are several lengthy threads about it when they first nose dived, look them up. The actual commentators on the subject are financial and business types. Or you can look up that really great 14+ part series from the PaintingBuddha gent, who was also a chief officer at one point in his career, so certainly qualified to discuss such matters.
The long and short is GW is hurting badly at a time of their highest cost and most profuse release schedule. They have nothing left to cut and, with releases like the Necrons or Eldar, the tipping point of many folks is getting met and surpassed.
The worst thing about this new release is that there was no nessesety for it. At least not the format that we have received. I would be fricking livid if i where an Eldar player.
Im even more livid as a competetive Nid player. Why should people who enjoy eldar as much as i enjoy nids get an easy ride in the game? Th qaulity control of rules in this book is absurdly shocking and decimates competetive play- a part of the game and that is enjoyed by thousands.
Im often to moan about new releases, i moaned to GW about the malaceptor and toxicrene. I also moaned about wraiths re-an pros - thats me.
Whats bad is that my close friends who do not moan, who are pretty laid back, are all freaking out. Like, game changing freakong out. Why?
Or, you know, the other alternative... they won't. Most companies won't actually close up shop until they lose money, have no money, and can't borrow any money... in that order.
You weren't around when we had these discussions (or at least I don't recall you apart of them), but the general rule of thumb is about 18-24 months for that cycle to happen once a company is trapped in it. There are several lengthy threads about it when they first nose dived, look them up. The actual commentators on the subject are financial and business types. Or you can look up that really great 14+ part series from the PaintingBuddha gent, who was also a chief officer at one point in his career, so certainly qualified to discuss such matters.
The long and short is GW is hurting badly at a time of their highest cost and most profuse release schedule. They have nothing left to cut and, with releases like the Necrons or Eldar, the tipping point of many folks is getting met and surpassed.
I actually try to stay out of these things, and avoided dakka for YEARS for the same reason that most of my friends do -- you get sucked into these forever-cyclic virtual knife fights that go nowhere. I did read most of the back-and-forth and more wisely chose not to participate.
Yes, GW is making less money than it did during its most successful years.
No, GW isn't losing money or hemorrhaging cash.
No, GW isn't going bankrupt.
Yes, GW could go out of business.
None of which affects how I spend my money today, which is to buy neat stuff that I like, model it, and have fun with friends playing it -- all of which are more important than meeting random strangers (much less friends) and saying, "The most important thing for me today is to WIN. DAMMIT".
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh yeah, and I think the new Eldar buffs are overboard too., although, frankly, I'm not sure I'm in love with the formations. It just won't make me quit the game, and I know that I and my local group will fix it, if it ACTUALLY turns into a problem.
Or, you know, the other alternative... they won't. Most companies won't actually close up shop until they lose money, have no money, and can't borrow any money... in that order.
You weren't around when we had these discussions (or at least I don't recall you apart of them), but the general rule of thumb is about 18-24 months for that cycle to happen once a company is trapped in it. There are several lengthy threads about it when they first nose dived, look them up. The actual commentators on the subject are financial and business types. Or you can look up that really great 14+ part series from the PaintingBuddha gent, who was also a chief officer at one point in his career, so certainly qualified to discuss such matters.
The long and short is GW is hurting badly at a time of their highest cost and most profuse release schedule. They have nothing left to cut and, with releases like the Necrons or Eldar, the tipping point of many folks is getting met and surpassed.
I actually try to stay out of these things, and avoided dakka for YEARS for the same reason that most of my friends do -- you get sucked into these forever-cyclic virtual knife fights that go nowhere. I did read most of the back-and-forth and more wisely chose not to participate.
Yes, GW is making less money than it did during its most successful years.
No, GW isn't losing money or hemorrhaging cash.
No, GW isn't going bankrupt.
Yes, GW could go out of business.
None of which affects how I spend my money today, which is to buy neat stuff that I like, model it, and have fun with friends playing it -- all of which are more important than meeting random strangers (much less friends) and saying, "The most important thing for me today is to WIN. DAMMIT".
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh yeah, and I think the new Eldar buffs are overboard too., although, frankly, I'm not sure I'm in love with the formations. It just won't make me quit the game, and I know that I and my local group will fix it, if it ACTUALLY turns into a problem.
Exalted, agree with everything in here. Yes I think new Eldar is OP. Yes I will think you are Lord Cheesebeard the VII if you spam bikes and D weapons, no I won't judge you for liking and enjoying the models and fielding some of the new OP units.
Exalted, agree with everything in here. Yes I think new Eldar is OP. Yes I will think you are Lord Cheesebeard the VII if you spam bikes and D weapons, no I won't judge you for liking and enjoying the models and fielding some of the new OP units.
Hahaha.. yeah, that's pretty much it
I think the codex will be a serious problem when it comes games against mediocre players who want to build the absolute cheesiest, easiest to abuse army that takes no brains, that only want to win, and are uncompromising in their play. But like... there's only one or two of those in every store, and everyone avoids them like the plague and talks about them behind their backs
Opponent 1: "Oh, Thursday? Nooooo... uh... I'm going out with... my... mother... for her... uh... sister's birthday."
Opponent 2: "Yeah, me too. I'm going out with his mother for her sister's birthday too."
Opponent 3: "Nah, not me. I just don't want to play your 6 wave serpents, kthanks. Hey are you guys playing 40k at your mother's sister's birthday?"
Martel732 wrote: I honestly don't know if I could be polite to someone fielding these units. I think I'd have to forfeit.
Yeah I would probably just say "pencil this in as a win for yourself" and look for another person to play with. Unless they weren't spammy.
I've read what else the codex does over on Warseer, and against BA, they don't have to spam to embarrass me. Again. This is too much after 6th ed Taudar and WS spam. This is gonna be at least three more years of BA being hammered by these guys mercilessly.
I actually try to stay out of these things, and avoided dakka for YEARS for the same reason that most of my friends do -- you get sucked into these forever-cyclic virtual knife fights that go nowhere. I did read most of the back-and-forth and more wisely chose not to participate.
Yes, GW is making less money than it did during its most successful years.
No, GW isn't losing money or hemorrhaging cash.
No, GW isn't going bankrupt.
Yes, GW could go out of business.
None of which affects how I spend my money today, which is to buy neat stuff that I like, model it, and have fun with friends playing it -- all of which are more important than meeting random strangers (much less friends) and saying, "The most important thing for me today is to WIN. DAMMIT".
It isn't so much that GW is making less money than it did in its peak years. It is that year on year the revenue has decreased from the previous year. They've stayed profitable by raising prices and cutting costs, then also accelerating the release schedule.That is not a very sustainable method.
The first batch of first hand codex rules reports are in! OH MY what the Eldar have become! +++UPDATED+++
Iuchiban has verified with cover pics that he has a copy of Codex Eldar Craftworlds in hand. This stuff is almost certainly correct:
via Iuchiban 4-17-2015
Ok. Let’s go.
All Distortion weapons are Strenght D. All of them. But the scythes apply a -1 when rolling on the D table, and the strenght is considered to be 4 when calculating the instant death.
Step by step.
Banshees add +3″ when running or assaulting. They igoner the I penalti when assualting through cover.
There are no “chapter tactics”.
Yes they have:
Primaris: Guide (no changes)
1: Executioner: Focussed witch fire. 24″. Target receives 3 hits, always wounds on 2+. If target diez, another model receives 2 hits. If target dies another gone receives 1 hit.
2: Fatality: You re-roll to wound or to penetrate when firing at target unit. 24″
3: Will of Asuryan: 12″ bubble of Fear and Adamantium will
4: Fortune: As always
5: Mind fight: Mainly the same.
6: Ancestral Storm: Warp charges 3 (5″ blast), Warp charge 4 (Apoc blast), 24″, Haywire, wounds 2+
Names may be different in the English version. (I own the Spanish one).
Wraithknight is LoW (295 points), Jump gargantuan creature
Wraithguard/blades are not tropos anymore if taking a Spiritseer (Only Elites)
Crimson hunter basically the same, but 140 points only.
No changes on Battle focus of the bladestorm rule. No hints on the Iyanden codex
(Wraithknight) Sword + Shield: Free (Sword is Strenght D)
Solar cannon + Shield: Free
(The Wraithknight’s Heavy Wraithcannons) Is the equipment by default.
(Jetbikes) 17/model, every model can purchase one scatter laser or shuriken cannon for +10 points
(Wraithknight Suncannon) Sun (Sorry for the “solar”) remains the same.
(Wave) Serpents are 110 points, and shield is now: S6, Assault 2D6, Ignores cover, One use only.
Shining spears have 4+ cover save if they moved the previous turn. 25/model. Lance is: 6″, F6, Assault 1, Lance. In combat: +3F when charging. Both are AP3.
Wraithblades: Same but 30/model and have Rage.
Hemlock: Same cost, has Lvl 2, can choose Daemonology (Sacred), Telepathy and Battle Runes. D-Scythes are a special D weapon as mentioned above,.
Scorpions: 17/model, Infiltration, Stealth, and Shrouded until they fire or fight in combat
Warp Spiders: 19/model Monofilament rule has changed.They roll to wound against I, although the T is still used to calculate ID.
Hawks: 16/model, they move 18″, and when moving over a Flyer the can do a special attack. Hits on 4+, S4, AP4 Haywire
(Wraithguard) Cost is the same.
(Regards to Autarchs and Swooping Hawk “no scatter”) Basically the same.
(Squadrons of Falcons/Fire Prisms/Night Spinners) YEEEEESSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Up to three!!!!!!!! And they have special rules if done so:
Falcon: if Deep Strike, first Falcon does not scatter. Others are place at 4″.
Fire Prism: For each additional Fire Prism firing +1S / -1AP
Night Spinners: +1S for each Night spinner
(Serpent Shield) Nop, only 24″ (range)
(Eldar Warhost Detachment) The main bonus of the Warhost is that they always run 6″.
(Serpent Shield Defence) When working as a shield, it works as before.
Falcon can DS only if taken in a unit of 3.
Guardians: Same
Dire avengers: They overwatch with BS2
Avatar is LoW, but mainly the same
I cannot see any psyker being able to get malefic daemonology
Formation rules:
Guardian battlehost: Vypers, Warwalkers and Vaul’s support batteries get preferred enemy if they have a unit of Guardias at 12″. Guardians can purchase a Platform for free.
Windrider host: Once per game all formation gets Shred when firing shuriken weapons
Guardian Stormhost: Vypers, Warwalkers and Vaul’s support batteries get preferred enemy if they have a unit of Guardias at 12″. Storm guardians can purchase 2 special weapons for free.
Seer council: They harness Warp charges with 3+.
Aspect Host: They re-roll LD tests and get +1 to WS or BS.
Dire Avenger Shrine: Once per game, Shuriken weapons are Assault 3. +1 to BS Crimson Death: Preferred enemy (Flying things), 4+ cover save, and if Jink, may re-roll the cover save.
Wraithhost: Get battle trance, if targe is at 18″ or less from spiritser, reroll to hit
(Warp Spider guns) Why is that? You still have S6. Target needs to have I6 to wound him on 4+.
(Dire Avengers Troops) Yes, they are.
Before leaving I will post the list of special ítems:
– A pistol S4, AP3, Rending
– A sword +2S, AP- Rending and if fighting in a challenge, wounds on 2+ and Instant Death
– One sniper rifle, AP2, 120″
– One ítem that if bearer does not cast any phychic power, or shots during the shooting phase, he can run 48″ and may reroll cover saves.
– One sword +1S, AP3, Soulblaze (affects wounded unit and all enemy units at 6″)
– One ítem that when bearer diez, 5″ template is placed and all models suffer one S4, AP5 hit. If at least, one wound is infflicted, bearer comes back to life, with 1W. One use only
– One ítem that makes psyhic powers required 1 WC less. No inv saves if done so.
Martel732 wrote: I honestly don't know if I could be polite to someone fielding these units. I think I'd have to forfeit.
Yeah I would probably just say "pencil this in as a win for yourself" and look for another person to play with. Unless they weren't spammy.
I've read what else the codex does over on Warseer, and against BA, they don't have to spam to embarrass me. Again. This is too much after 6th ed Taudar and WS spam. This is gonna be at least three more years of BA being hammered by these guys mercilessly.
Although I get the feeling that SM and Tau are about to get the same treatment, it just isn't fair for everyone else or the people who like a challenge as Eldar without purposely having to weaken their lists.
I've read what else the codex does over on Warseer, and against BA, they don't have to spam to embarrass me. Again. This is too much after 6th ed Taudar and WS spam. This is gonna be at least three more years of BA being hammered by these guys mercilessly.
Although I get the feeling that SM and Tau are about to get the same treatment, it just isn't fair for everyone else or the people who like a challenge as Eldar without purposely having to weaken their lists.
Yeah. This is really the problem with the codex in my opinion -- it takes too much of the challenge out of the Eldar equation. Although in fairness, I don't think Blood Angels need the new codex to be embarrassed by Eldar.
I'm not sure there's been an edition where that was a pretty matchup -- except the current one, if you play a large enough game to abuse Angel's Fury and blow them all up with null deployment templates and T1 ds charges. But not like that's a whole lot of fun to play either.
To anyone wanting a 40k game that is balanced and awesome to watch, pick up WH40K II retribution. Then download the FREE elite mod. You can play as any race save necrons and I think tau in the multiplayer. You get almost all of the units save the Knight's/WK stuff. (Sadly no bikes yet) . its not perfect but hey. Its an option.
It seems a lot of people are very unhappy about this new codex - and has actually united a lot of people who spend the rest of the time grumping at each-other.
Let's hope I don't have to face these D weapons, they don't seem fun at all
Okay, sure, I get that there may be an element of vengeance to be had with this book and future ones, but any book that one ups this one will only make the game worse. Its gakky this one happened, but the solution is not for books on or above this power level.
Blacksails wrote: Okay, sure, I get that there may be an element of vengeance to be had with this book and future ones, but any book that one ups this one will only make the game worse. Its gakky this one happened, but the solution is not for books on or above this power level.
Of course the other issue is that everyone else is now underpowered and has to suffer through grueling matches for two to five years again..
Blacksails wrote: Okay, sure, I get that there may be an element of vengeance to be had with this book and future ones, but any book that one ups this one will only make the game worse. Its gakky this one happened, but the solution is not for books on or above this power level.
Hopefully no one from here gets more powerful. Gosh I hope this doesn't happen to the upcoming SM release! I would hate my army to get this stupidly OP. Even though I suspect in my heart this WILL happen to SM.
I don't think that's healthy at all. There would come a breaking point sooner than later where you'd be handing D strength missile launcher variants on Guardsmen or underslung vortex grenade launchers.
Blacksails wrote: I don't think that's healthy at all. There would come a breaking point sooner than later where you'd be handing D strength missile launcher variants on Guardsmen or underslung vortex grenade launchers.
So back to Rogue Trader then it seems.
Either way I want my CSM to actually be worthwhile enough, if the Aspects can get full bonus and benefits and 2W exarchs I certainly want my CSM to not be as crap as they are now!
Blacksails wrote: I don't think that's healthy at all. There would come a breaking point sooner than later where you'd be handing D strength missile launcher variants on Guardsmen or underslung vortex grenade launchers.
I really don't see the functional difference at this point. That's how far down the totem BA are from Eldar now.
Blacksails wrote: I don't think that's healthy at all. There would come a breaking point sooner than later where you'd be handing D strength missile launcher variants on Guardsmen or underslung vortex grenade launchers.
If they want to keep going OP, you are right, that is literally the only way they can keep one upping.
Everyone wants their army to be worthwhile, but if the escalation continues, the game will be quite literally so broken as to be nearly unplayable outside of a handful of close friends and heavy comp/restriction/gentlemen's agreements.
When money is factored in, I'd start questioning people's sanity if they invested in a game where Guardsmen could take D-weapons. I think its pretty daft now a troops choice can take D-weapons, but I'm holding out a little longer for a few reasons.
TERMINATORS ARE BACK BABY! Assault marines finally can attack fliers as well!
