Within this guide you will find my thoughts on the new 7thed Eldar Codex.
This guide is written with a very competitive mind set and not meant for the casual gamer.
Feel free to contribute if you have a different opinion, but keep in mind this is just my opinion and you may disagree so keep the whining to another thread.
The major rules, psychic powers, and units within the codex are graded based on their feasibility within a competitive environment in a color coded format shamefully stolen from other great guides.
Red is dead. This is a choice that's so bad, it actively detracts from your armies synergy, and makes your army a worse one overall.
Yellow is conditional. It may shine in a certain match-up, or when used in certain ways, but in general it's a sub-par choice.
Green is the average. Not necessarily a great choice, but it's rarely one you'll end up regretting.
Blue is an above-average or exceptional choice. These options frequently increase army synergy and overall army strength.
Purple is the highest rating in this guide, and is reserved for units that should be staples in virtually all competitive armies.
Will continue to update this as time goes on. Taking all feedback into consideration when I have time to read it all. Please keep your response civil and constructive.
Updated: 2/9/16 in the process of being updated.
Army Special Rules
Spoiler:
Ancient Doom – The Hatred re-rolls out-weigh the -1 Ld on Fear tests since most Eldar combat units are either Fearless or Ld9.
Battle Focus – Whether you’re using Run to move into firing range or getting out of Line of Sight Battle Focus should be a key part of every Eldar strategy. Remember that you must complete the Shoot + Run or Run + Shoot before moving on to another unit.
Warlord Traits
Spoiler:
Ambush of Blades – Re-Rolling to wound rolls of 1 for a single phase can be quite powerful, but situational.
An Eye on Distant Events – D3 scouting units opens up many tactical opportunities.
Falcon’s Swiftness – +3” to run moves for a single unit is useful.
Fate’s Messenger – Farseers have access to fortune and an Autarch should avoid taking too many saves where re-rolling 1s would be that helpful.
Mark of the Incomparable Hunter – Few units can take advantage of split fire unless your including a weapon emplacement.
Seer of the Shifting Vector – A 12" no scatter radius around your warlord can benefit Warp Spiders.
Remnants of Glory
Spoiler:
Kurnous’ Bow – S4 AP3 rending pistol is underwhelming and quite useless.
The Spirit Stone of Anath’lan – Auto-include for any Farseer. Reducing the cost of all psychic powers by 1 in exchange for losing an invulnerable save is always worth it.
The Phoenix Gem – 83% chance to place a S4 AP5 large blast over your dead Autarch to revive at one wound it if a unsaved wound is caused. Moderately useful for an assault based Autarch, but your Autarch shouldn’t be running into combats to die.
Uldanorethi Long Rifle – An AP3 sniper rifle. Sniper rifles are near useless in 7th and adding a single sniper shot isn’t worth the cost. Maybe a gun line Farseer could take advantage of it, but finding the spare points for this would be tough.
Faolchu’s Wing – 48" run and re-rollable cover saves, but giving up an entire turn of shooting/psychic powers/assaulting to move across the board is very situational.
Firesabre – +1S AP3 Soul Blaze, and Wildfire’s ability to destroy your own units, and the cost compared to comparable weapon upgrades that are cheaper out class this weapon.
Shard of Anaris – +2S rending, fearless, and fleshbane + instant death in challenges. Autarchs should avoid challenging any real combat characters, and the cost of this compared to other power weapons that are just as effective against weaker characters means you need to have a plan before you add it to your list. Adding fearless to any unit is the only reason this is green.
Psychic Powers
Spoiler:
Runes of Battle - These powers still have the same drawbacks. Warlocks are quite expensive, and you can’t pick and choose where each warlock will go so you’ll end up with useless powers. Spiritseers can alleviate this, but farseers are far better as a HQ.
--Conceal / Reveal – Shrouded or removing stealth/shrouded as the primaris; a warlock will always have at least one decent power to use each turn. Reveal is pretty situational, but conceal is always worth a spare dice.
--Destructor / Renewer –Heavy flamers are always nice, but psychic heavy flamers add a lot more uncertainty. The ability to heal a nearby wounded model like a Wraith Knight is quite good.
--Embolden / Horrify – Fearless or reducing an enemies Ld by 3. Fearless could be okayish on a Guardian blob, but quite expensive for a bike unit. Reducing enemies Ld by 3 can guarantee morale failures.
--Enhance / Drain – +1 to I and WS or -1 to an enemy units I and WS. Both powers are more or less the same and provide a solid boost to combat results.
--Protect / Jinx – Increases a units armor save or reduces an enemy units armor save. 2+ save bikes or wraithguard are awesome, but 4+ guardians on foot not so much. Dropping enemy saves though is kinda meh when the majority of eldar’s weapons are either rending/low ap or have high ap.
--Quicken / Restrain – Increases a units run by 3" or removes an enemy units ability to run. Could potentially win a game.
--Empower / Enervate – +1S increases an Eldar units combat results, and -1S to an enemy unit prevents wounds. Both are great.
Runes of Fate – Mixed bag, but the powers you do want are quite powerful.
--Guide – Twin-links a units shooting.
--Executioner – 3 > 2 > 1 fleshbane hits if you kill an enemy model each time. You have guns that do this better. Might work against light armored troops.
--Doom – Re-roll wounds/armor pen against an enemy unit. Any unit unfortunate enough to get hit by this will more than likely be removed soon.
--Will of Asuryan – 12" fearless, and adamantium will bubble. Very important to any list running MSU bikes.
--Mind War – Ld + D6 vs enemy LD + D6: a tie result enemy loses 1 WS and BS, but a loss also means the enemy unit loses that many wounds in addition. Great sniping tool for low LD armies.
--Eldritch Storm – S3 AP3 large blast with fleshbane, haywire, and pinning or potentially an apocalyptic blast version if you go for a higher warp charge. With stone and a few dice this can be devastating.
Santic – A couple powers here can have more impact for a warlock/spiritseer than Runes of Battle, but santic also has a much higher chance of being useless. A farseer has competing options in the other psychic trees.
--Gate of Infinity – very good mobility for grabbing objectives or finding weak spots to strike. Gating a unit of wraithguard around the table can be quite powerful.
--Hammerhand – A better version of Empower.
--Sanctuary – Not so great on guardians, but very good on wraithguard or wraithblades.
--Purge Soul – Again your guns do this better.
--Cleansing Flame – Very good power in many circumstances.
--Vortex of Doom – While S is amazing the cost to get this off will be tough for anyone besides the farseer. Can also end up destroying your own units.
Divination – Unless you’re going for invisibility this is the psychic tree that will be competing with Runes of Fate. Very good powers all around.
--Prescience – All but requires spirit stones to lower the cost, but if your tight on points it can be expensive. Re-rolls are always awsome.
--Foreboding – Probably blue, but eldar generally want to avoid getting charged. Otherwise the full BS overwatch is a great deterent.
--Forewarning – Ignoring half the wounds a unit may take is awesome.
--Perfect Timing – The best power in this tree. Ignoring cover saves means units die.
--Precognition – Eldar psykers do not want combat. Don’t have the guns. Pretty useless.
--Misfortune – Near army wide rending and low ap weapons means this is generally useless.
--Scrier’s Gaze – High cost with little impact on the game.
Telepathy – You’re here for invisibility. Most of the other powers are decent to awful.
--Psychic Shriek – Removes units with good rolls. Easy to cast.
--Dominate – Good power. Can effectively hinder a unit for a turn.
--Mental Fortitude – The chance you have a unit that is falling back near your farseer? Decent in the right circumstances.
--Terrify – Half the armies ignore this. The other half fear is already useless for the most part.
--Shrouding – Great power for increasing a units survivability.
--Invisibility – This is it. Deathstar is a go.
--Hallucination – You got a 33% chance to get what you want. 66% of the time you’re going to annoy your opponent at best.
Eldar Vehicle Equipment
Spoiler:
Ghostwalk Matrix – Protecting your vehicles without having to jink. Awesome upgrade.
Spirit Stones – Good but probably costs too much to be of use.
Holo-fields – If you can’t find any terrain to hide in this is a great replacement for the ghostwalk.
Star Engines – Too expensive for war walkers and eldar skimmers are already fast enough.
Vectored Engines – Pretty situational and expensive, but useful for protecting rear armor.
Crystal Targeting Matrix –Awesome ability, but way too costly to justify it.
Heavy Weapons
Spoiler:
Bright Lance - Standard awesome anti tank gun.
Eldar Missile Launcher - Now includes flak missiles for free, but remains the most expensive upgrade.
Shuriken Cannon - It's usually free and happens to be the best all rounder for heavy weapons. Rending is awesome.
Scatter Laser - Loss of laser lock and no AP means they simply are not that good anymore.
Starcannon - They are 5 point upgrades on almost all platforms which makes them pretty good for consistent AP2.
Headquarters
Spoiler:
Eldrad Ulthran – If you’re taking a farseer without a bike then you should be taking eldrad. For an extra 95 points you get +1 to your save, +1 psychic level, +1 toughness, a better weapon, the best eldar warlord trait, and the ability to regenerate power dice.
Prince Yriel – You can take a cheaper more versatile autarch, or a better combat character in a phoenix lord. Hard to justify the cost, but he’s a decent combat character with a drawback on his armor saves.
Illic Nightspear – Illic won’t be making that big of a difference in a game and rangers are generally pretty awful even with sharpshot. Might get lucky with a voidshot, but those will be far between. Better off taking a vindicare if you want the super sniper.
Asurmen – Can be blue depending if you roll well on your D3 warlord traits. Lack of ranged power, but great/tough combat character.
Jain Zar – Amazing combat character. Runs 1-6+6”, AP2 ranged/melee, disarms powerfists/weapons, lowers enemies WS and I within 6” by 5, and ignores over watch and difficult terrain. No invulnerable save though so watch out for AP2. Combos nicely with any monofilament weapons. Also great in front of a unit of wraithblades.
Karandras – Great combat character with a powerfist at I, and a good warlord trait. No invulnerable save and doesn’t bring much else to the table though for such a high cost.
Fuegan – Great combat character, but costs way too much. No invulnerable save, but feel no pain helps.
Bararroth – Good combat character, but lacks AP2 or invulnerable save. 6” blind on deep strike is helpful in certain situations. Still has Hit and Run for any deathstars.
Maugan Ra – Great combat character, and 8 rending BS5 shots a turn. The increased range and double tap ability has greatly increased his power.
Autarch – Cheapest HQ available and very customizable. You can build an autarch to do anything besides heavy combat. Very good at covering a units missing pieces. Also good at keeping units in reserve longer.
Farseer – The go to HQ for eldar. Amazing force multiplier for cheap. Should always be on a bike unless you have something tough to hide in.
Warlock Conclave – Communion of Minds drastically reduces their effectiveness. Still a formidable combat unit with the right blessings, but getting those blessings is the hard part now. Capped at 3 powers your chances of getting what you need is severely hampered. Also still very expensive. If you must then take the formation and not this.
Spiritseer – Not quite as good as the farseer, but a must take HQ for any army focusing on wraith units. Re-rolls for all wraith units is huge.
Troops
Spoiler:
Guardian Defenders – Solid troop choice if taken in formation, but green rating if not. The free weapon platform opens a lot of possibilities.
--Warlock Leader - Solid upgrade for the unit, but only for the ability to add conceal reliably.
Storm Guardians – Cheap melta/flamers in troops if taken in formation, but yellow rating if not. The free melta/flamers and power swords opens a lot of possibilities.
--Warlock Leader - The other runes of battle powers really come into effect within this unit. A lot of added value depending on which power you get.
---Singing Spear - Range fits with shuriken, and adds a nice punch.
Windriders – Cheapest and easily the best troops in the game. Both weapon options have great value, but I prefer shuriken cannons as the best tac option simply because the rend + auto wound is so important against tough enemies. Remember that you're still T4 with a 3+ so don't go standing around in the middle of the board.
--Warlock Leader - The strength of the jetbikes lies in their cost / power ratio and adding on a 50 point warlock greatly decreases that for very little in return.
---Singing Spear - Adds quite a bit of flexibility to the unit.
Rangers – Sniper rifles are terrible in 7th. Rangers are a weak static unit that can at best camp a home objective and pick off a couple models over the entire game.
Dire Avengers – No longer needed as the cheapest troops to unlock wave serpents. Dire avengers are still a solid troop with good mobility and range, but lack survivability.
--Exarch - Doesn't add much over all to the unit. The fact that he is T3 means his 4++ will not matter not as most guns will simply cause instant death and ignore the 2 wounds.
---Twin-linked Shuriken Catapult - BS5, there is little reason to pay 15 points for twin-linked.
---Power Weapon Shuriken Pistol - Very shooty unit with little combat potential. Why spend 25 points to lower your ranged potential?
---Dire Sword Shuriken Pistol - Same comment.
---Power Weapon Shimmer Shield - If you're going to take an exarch this is the only upgrade that seems reasonable. 20 points for a unit wide 5++ is pretty cheap.
Elites
Spoiler:
Howling Banshees – No longer the worst unit in the game. Many of the past issues have been solved (overwatch, grenades). This rating seems a bit high, but with formation bonuses banshees are very killy with the mobility to get them where they need to go, and at 13 points a pop durability isn’t an issue.
--Exarch - War Shout is very good for combat results and offers an excellent weapon.
---Triskele - AP3 ranged attack, but still suffers from the S3 of eldar.
---Executioner - +2S AP2 at I really adds in to your combat results. Best upgrade if you're adding an exarch.
---Mirrorswords - Losing a shuriken pistol for a single re-roll to hit in combat is a bad trade.
Striking Scorpions – Statistically stronger than banshees against most units. .
--Exarch - If you're taking striking scorpions you really need to take an exarch. It's expensive, but worth it.
---Scorpion's Claw - 2xS AP2 at I and not to mention the added shuriken this is your upgrade of choice.
---Biting Blade - The +1S over the sword is okay, but you're losing an attack for it. AP4 is kinda meh.
---Chainsabres - Rending for 10 points isn't bad. Not great either.
Fire Dragons – Best anti tank units in the game? Still expensive, but no one does it better(unless your bringing wraiths).
--Exarch - Not a worth while investment for unit that is so specialized. Neither weapon nor the power is really quite worth the investment for a unit that will more than likely die to return fire.
---Firepike - It's better, but not by enough to make it worthwhile. If your fire dragons are on the ground they are more than likely within 6" of their target and the extra range is for naught.
---Dragon's Breath Flamer - While this upgrade goes against the units purpose it at least adds something to the unit if you're going to waste points on the exarch. Can actually help in a match where you lack a AT threat worth going after.
Wraithguard – They are obviously going to murder anything they get near, but mobility continues to be an issue. Obvious choice for DE allies and deepstriking shenanigans. The short range on these weapons will over the length of a game become a problem if you're walking.
--Wraithcannon - Longer range, but less killing potential.
--D-Sythe - Stronger choice since the range difference isn't that big of a deal when you consider how much more killing potential this unit has as well as the charge deterrence of D3 SD hits each.
Wraithblades – Swords are okay at S6 AP3 with base 2A, but with the addition of rage axes are easily the better pick. T6 3+ 4++ and S7 AP2 with 3A on the charge? Probably the best melee unit in the codex now.
Dedicated Transport
Spoiler:
Wave Serpent – Oh how the mighty have fallen. Still a durable transport at a decent cost with some fire power.
Fast Attack
Spoiler:
Swooping Hawks – Massed S3 guns and the grenade pack are still good. Intercept is just icing on the cake; 8 hawks will kill a flier per turn.
--Exarch - The ability to not scatter is awesome and worth it every time.
---Hawl's Talon - S5 will help with the wound count, but for 5 more points you can have...
---Sunrifle - AP3 and blind are a great addition to a unit that wish's to avoid return fire.
---Power Weapon - Just no. Avoid combat.
Warp Spiders – If you miss the old wave serpents I hope you bought 30 warp spiders. It’s hard to find a unit that is as good as this. Assault 2 S6 guns with rending and probably the best mobility on any unit in the game. Even better they can re-actively disengage now during your opponents shooting phase.
--Exarch - Iron Resolve is seriously a great rule for a unit that will be operating behind enemy lines.
---Twin-Linked Death Spinner - BS5! You don't need twin-linked!
---Spinneret Rifle - Awesome upgrade as the AP1 seriously helps with vehicle hunting.
---Powerblades - Just no. Avoid combat.
Shining Spears – Shock assault unit that can punch pretty hard on the charge. Durable and mobile spears can threaten most units. Kinda expensive though and are terrible in protracted combats.
--Exarch - Expert Hunter is nice, but you're taking this for the lance.
---Power Weapon - Your normal lance is better so why bother?
---Star Lance - Only reason to take this guy. Opens up the units list of targets considerably.
Crimson Hunter – Now with re-rolls against other fliers this is easily the most dangerous anti flier in the game.
--Starcannons - Trading 2x S8 for 4x at S6 is situational; as in you know you're not going against other fliers/FMC which makes me ask why you would bring this if you know that...
--Exarch - You're taking this for BS5. Precision shots is way to situational for an anti flier.
Vyper Squadron – Very cheap mobile shuriken cannon platforms or for a bit higher cost can specialize for anti-tank. Lack of durability hurts it as well as being in the same slot as warp spiders.
Hemlock Wraithfighter – New changes have seriously increased the value of this unit. A flying level 2 pysker with a D cannon is amazing. Stick with telepathy and enjoy psychic shrieking one unit while you rain S small blasts down on another. The other powers all generally work well with the range and mobility a flier offers.
Heavy Support
Spoiler:
Dark Reapers – 25 points for 2 S5 AP3 jink ignoring shots is amazing. Durable for Eldar, but a bit static for a fast moving army.
--Starshot Missiles - Still a bit expensive, but the unit will now threaten just about everything.
--Exarch - Fast shot is worth 10 points.
---Shuriken Cannon - Worthless within this unit.
---Eldar Missile Launcher - Starshot is cheaper, so you either want flak and/or plasma.
---Tempest Launcher - Trading 1S for barrage blasts can be worth it.
Vaul’s Wrath Support Battery- Overall a good unit especially for a gun line.
--Shadow Weaver- Will see a lot of this. Still a solid barrage weapon that can threaten a lot of targets.
--Vibro Cannon- Great anti-tank, but very reliant on all 3 guns hitting.
--D-Cannon- It’s a D cannon; it’s amazing. It is short range on a static unit though.
--Warlock Leader - Conceal I guess? Not many powers are going to help this unit.
Falcons – Durable mobile weapons platform. Great potential in combining cloudstrike and an aspect formation, but finding a place to fit 3 falcons and 15+ troops will be tough.
Fire Prisms – Prisms always needed redundancy, but often couldn’t afford to spare all 3 HS slots for it. Durable, mobile, and flexible weapon platforms are now available in squadrons. AP2 large blast is available with linked fire.
Night Spinners – Spinners always needed redundancy, but often couldn’t afford to spare all 3 HS slots for it. Durable, mobile, and flexible weapon platforms are now available in squadrons. Multi-shot S9 large blast barrage rending is available with linked fire.
War Walkers – Mobile and versatile weapon platform. 90 points for two missile systems with flakk seems like a good deal. Still light on the durability, but battle focus helps avoid fire.
Wraithlord – For the points investment you just have to realize that the wraithknight is just better. Still a reasonable unit that’s extremely durable and has versatile weapon options.
Lord of War
Spoiler:
Wraithknight – Overall one of the strongest units in the game. Unreasonably cheap for such a durable and powerful unit. There is no downside to this model.
--D-Cannons – Great utility with two D shots at potentially two targets.
--Suncannon – 3 S6 AP2 small blasts are very good, but redundant with other units that can do the same thing.
--Sword – This is where this unit shines. D sword Wraith Knight will rip through all the giant things the rest of your army will struggle to defeat.
Avatar of Khaine – A very good unit, but it competes with a Wraith Knight in the Lord of War slot, and it just doesn't compare very well.
Formations
Spoiler:
Guardian Battlehost – The most expensive option at 500 points min, but probably the 2nd best. Free weapon platforms on top of guardian blobs make for a great gunline.
Windrider Host – The cheapest option at 358 points and honestly the best. You get a mobile and durable HQ, the best troops, and get to ignore the more static units in the guardian formations.
Guardian Stormhost – Same as the battlehost but you’re trading guardians with weapon platforms for storm guardians with 2 melta or flamers. Still a solid option at 464 points.
Seer Council – The only real way to run a seer council. 3+ to harness powers goes a long way with Farseer re-rolls.
Aspect Host – This is the hidden gem in this book. I feel like this is where every power list will end up. BS5 / WS5 is just so game changing. Warp spiders or dark reapers that hit and wound on 2-3s? Hitting the majority of infantry on 3s in combat? So many great combinations and the ability to mix your aspects I feel makes this the best formation available.
Dire Avenger Shrine – One turn of BS5 Assault 3 weapons with the re-roll to wound warlord trait active could be very deadly. The other aspects just have more going for them though. If it came with something else it might merit a higher rating.
Crimson Death – If there are a lot of fliers then this formation will wreak havoc, and if not you’re still getting what amounts to be the old vendetta spam.
Wraith Host – Battle Focus alleviates the mobility problem with Wraithguard. The ability to extend your reach an extra 6" every turn will help control the board.
Good write up, thanks for sharing.
When you have the things in red and say "you wont get to use them" are you referring to tournaments/gaming groups and other players simply saying no to them or?
It would be decent write-up, but the 'you'll never get to use this' is a major turn off. As if you would have any clue yet what will and won't be allowed, just like you don't seem to comprehend that there are lot of no-comp GT events held every year.
While everyone else are writing anti-Eldar tacticas vs the new Wraithguard, Wraithknight, Jetbikes and whatnot, you're doing an Eldar 7th Guide that doesn't say anything in the department of Wraith Host except 'haha you can't use this'.
Overall this guide is useless, because if you're a casual player who picks only from the weakest units, why would you care about their power ranking?
Maybe there are people who can't see the synergy with some of the units and formations... I liked the review made me giggle. And most places are banning ranged d so uh it's kinda relevant. Some of the haters on dakka man I swear.
Good call on the majority of the analysis. It's a shame too, because now I again feel like I won't be able to play my Eldar. There are just SO many good units, and the formations are just out of bounds. I envisioned the same idea of an Avatar-led assault-based list for my aspect warriors! I think plenty of other armies will take the Crimson Hunters formation solely as their anti-air/anti-tank option, it is just so good. They get a jink save without jinking?? Come on. This is an uber-strong codex.
Homeskillet wrote: Good call on the majority of the analysis. It's a shame too, because now I again feel like I won't be able to play my Eldar. There are just SO many good units, and the formations are just out of bounds. I envisioned the same idea of an Avatar-led assault-based list for my aspect warriors! I think plenty of other armies will take the Crimson Hunters formation solely as their anti-air/anti-tank option, it is just so good. They get a jink save without jinking?? Come on. This is an uber-strong codex.
I only rank the Codex as "good, but not great" (but take it with a grain of salt because I don't think any of the 7th edition books are universally great). I think you'll find that the Eldar units are a lot less resilient than before and those that are super resilient pay a premium in points. 7 warlocks on jetbikes costs 350 alone. The Craftworld detachment is nice but the command benefit is marginal unless you're playing footdar which means lots of exposed T3 models. A lot of the reroll cover shenanigans are gone so it'll be fairly easy to stack wounds on T3 units and do damage through volume of fire.
Eldar shooting remains best in the game but still suffers from short range. Anything that catches them in an assault will make them wilt and anything that survives to return fire will do some damage.
The wave serpent took a serious nerf and so did warlocks. They can't join units off the conclave now and get far less powers and warpcharges than before. An Eldar force built around a CAD for ObSec is still very good, but lost tons of firepower with the serpent nerf that will be hard to replace and caps out at a single Wraithknight.
Good codex, but not great. I think its balanced very well with the other 7th edition releases.
I agree with most of your analysis, but I can't get behind including the Avatar to buff Banshees. Simply put, against most armies the Avatar isn't going to survive long enough to supply the buff. T6/W6/3+/5++ just isn't going to cut it. That's especially true in a footdar list because there won't be many other targets for your opponent's AT weaponry. In general, I don't trust buff models that I can't hide in a unit.
One other note: if you're taking the Craftworld Warhost (which seems like the thing to do if you're running footdar) you have to take a regular Farseer. That's a situation where you'd take a regular Farseer on foot over Eldrad.
Homeskillet wrote: Good call on the majority of the analysis. It's a shame too, because now I again feel like I won't be able to play my Eldar. There are just SO many good units, and the formations are just out of bounds. I envisioned the same idea of an Avatar-led assault-based list for my aspect warriors! I think plenty of other armies will take the Crimson Hunters formation solely as their anti-air/anti-tank option, it is just so good. They get a jink save without jinking?? Come on. This is an uber-strong codex.
i was really hyped for some of the vehicles formations like the crimson hunter squad but im really concerned with how easy it would be for even a single hive tyrant to easy destroy the formation. 12 s6 shots would at the very least force the whole squad to jink and than snap fire, or take your chances and not jink and could lose a couple planes at once. Might be easier to hide the vehicle squads (spinner/prism) since you dont need LOS ofcourse for the spinner and if taking multiple fire prisms only one needs to see the target (i presume) leaving the others to hide. That lone visable prism could be given holofields for some survivability.
i will prolly be fielding a couple 5 man bike squads with scatters and a knight standard, but for what ill face in my meta, i mise well just keep using improved fire dragons for tank busting and leaving the d-scythes at home. Wonder if foreworld will make the warp hunter a D weapon, as it is now never field it.
and as a couple people mentioned, i like the writeup and the time you took to do it, but the red on D weapons is lame. 95% of warhammer games played are not tourney games, and most people will never play in one, what relevance does this than have?
Therion wrote: It would be decent write-up, but the 'you'll never get to use this' is a major turn off. As if you would have any clue yet what will and won't be allowed, just like you don't seem to comprehend that there are lot of no-comp GT events held every year.
We don't need a tactica to tell us that if they are permitted, ranged D weapons and criminally undercosted wraithknights are a no brainer.
I think 'terrible' should have been coded separate from 'great, but I predict tourneys won't allow them.'
If you only consider Eldar as a mono build army, this is a good guide. I think some of your judgements suffer from not considering their impact on or with allies.
I think you'll find that the Eldar units are a lot less resilient than before and those that are super resilient pay a premium in points.
I'd like to see some examples. Compare the price and effectiveness of most Eldar units to a similar unit of another race and... uh... I shouldn't have to explain this.
Eldar shooting remains best in the game but still suffers from short range. Anything that catches them in an assault will make them wilt and anything that survives to return fire will do some damage.
Scatter laser is 36" mounted on an extremely mobile unit, and it's range isn't even impressive by Eldar standards. Can you name three units in this game that would reliably be able to chase down windriders, survive overwatch and wipe them in melee for a roughly equivalent amount of points?
The wave serpent took a serious nerf and so did warlocks. They can't join units off the conclave now and get far less powers and warpcharges than before. An Eldar force built around a CAD for ObSec is still very good, but lost tons of firepower with the serpent nerf that will be hard to replace and caps out at a single Wraithknight.
Wave serpents are no longer a broken fire-platform but are a very viable dedicated transport. Scatbikes replace the wave serpent's loss of firepower easily. It's possible to take multiple CADs for multiple wraithknights and it might be possible to take multiples via the decurion-like formation, it's not clear.
Good codex, but not great. I think its balanced very well with the other 7th edition releases.
Thanks for sharing this review. I would agree with you on most of the units.
You are probably doing your review a disservice by assuming that D weapon equipped units will be blanket banned. Most of the major GTs have already come out saying they will not be blanket banning and will instead figure out other solutions. The -1 to results on the D chart seems the most likely as of now.
I think wraithlords are pretty bad when considered in a CAD. If you can take them in a Wraith Host inside of a Craftworld Warhost then they start becoming a lot better. Primarily they are pretty tough to kill, can take 2 EML (which now have flakk missiles automatically) or 2 relatively cheap star cannons and will be able to battle focus 6"+ their 6" movements. The wraithlords biggest problem has been speed and the wraithlord sharing a slot. That is solved to some degree now.
Adding fearless is actually a much bigger advantage now that all the aspects and guardian units are massively better and the waveserpents are significantly worse. Morale is a much bigger issue now. Thus having some units around that can regroup your fleeing Windriders when they fail their morale checks is a major advantage. Additionally adding shrouded to Windriders units full of scatter lasers jumping around in ruins is going to be a brutal experience. Nothing better than a 2+ cover save, scatter laser equipped, ObjSec, troop choice.
Another power which you might want to reevaluate the Quicken / Restrain series. They are not conditional in the way you mentioned per se. These two powers are the type of abilities which win close games. The number of close games I have seen won or lost on a single run roll is large. Adding an extra +3 to your run or not allowing a key unit of your opponent to run would win these games. So while it is conditional it is game winning when you need it.
I agree with you on the storm guardians. When you start combining Craftworld Warhost and their formation with warlocks they actually start getting pretty good. A unit which can move 6", jump out of the waveserpent, then run 6", shoot 2 melta shots, and have a singing lance + shrouded for a cheap price tag is not bad. They can even stand up reasonably well to a charge with 2 power swords.
I think you'll find that the Eldar units are a lot less resilient than before and those that are super resilient pay a premium in points.
I'd like to see some examples. Compare the price and effectiveness of most Eldar units to a similar unit of another race and... uh... I shouldn't have to explain this.
Eldar shooting remains best in the game but still suffers from short range. Anything that catches them in an assault will make them wilt and anything that survives to return fire will do some damage.
Scatter laser is 36" mounted on an extremely mobile unit, and it's range isn't even impressive by Eldar standards. Can you name three units in this game that would reliably be able to chase down windriders, survive overwatch and wipe them in melee for a roughly equivalent amount of points?
The wave serpent took a serious nerf and so did warlocks. They can't join units off the conclave now and get far less powers and warpcharges than before. An Eldar force built around a CAD for ObSec is still very good, but lost tons of firepower with the serpent nerf that will be hard to replace and caps out at a single Wraithknight.
Wave serpents are no longer a broken fire-platform but are a very viable dedicated transport. Scatbikes replace the wave serpent's loss of firepower easily. It's possible to take multiple CADs for multiple wraithknights and it might be possible to take multiples via the decurion-like formation, it's not clear.
Good codex, but not great. I think its balanced very well with the other 7th edition releases.
I don't even know.
Take your pick. Stock Necron warriors are more resilient than any Eldar troops choice and still pack ok firepower at medium range. T3 makes all the aspect warriors slightly less resilient than a MEQ. Guardians are no more resilient than any GEQ while having generally half the range. The really resilient units are a premium price point. The wraithknight eats a LoW slot and costs almost 300 points stock.
Scatterlasers are nice. But a good shooting platform (say a 95 point Predator with HB sponsons) stands a great chance of killing a 81 point 3 windrider, 3 scatterlaser squad before they kill or disable the tank. It comes down much more to unit placement and movement. I don't need to dedicate a unit to chasing you across the board. I need to dedicate a unit to an objective that your bikes need to advance into.
I didn't say wave serpents were bad now. I said they took a serious nerf. You no longer get a main battle tank in a DT slot. Scatterlaser bikes do not make up for the lost firepower by themselves. You lost S7, almost always twin-linked, ignore cover, pinning shooting with 60" range and great mobility. Jetbikes are not nearly as resilient being essentially a MEQ unit and can't just ignore S5 and below shooting like serpents do.
You can absolutely take multiple wraithknights in the Craftworld detachment. Its crystal clear. You buy them under the wraith construct slot once you filled your core. Even if you take multiple CADs for multiple wraithknights, its not nearly as effective in terms of firepower and resilience as the 3 knight, 4 serpent build under the old book.
So yes, I stand by what I said. Its a good codex but its not great. Compared to most of the other 7th edition books, I think its about par for the course. The infantry units generally got a boost but Eldar are units are now generally mobile with high firepower but not very survivable or they are mobile and survivable with lower firepower.
Great feedback. I will look through it and make some revisions trying to explain my ratings on each unit better as well as figure something out about SD weapons. Will add an additional section on allies soon.
I exalt this thread. It's the only one I've found on the new Eldar codex that's not degenerated into bitter flamewar. Everyone who's posted should feel at least slightly proud for resisting the lure of the dark side.
Good codex, but not great. I think its balanced very well with the other 7th edition releases.
LOL What!??!?
I no longer value your opinion on the subject.
Great contribution there buddy. Highly qualitative response.
Lets discuss specifics. When I think of a "great" codex, I think of the old Necron book. Lots of good selections and very easy to achieve a balance between shooting, mobility, and survivability. When I think of an average Codex, I think of the current Tyranid or Orc book. They have some really great units and are competitive, but not dominating. The new Eldar book falls in between these for me. You can build lists that are very shooty, but they tend not to be nearly as resilient as before. 7th Edition Jetbikes are inferior to 6th Edition Serpents.
Lets look at a specific spammy example: 3 jet bike farseers, 6x 3 windriders with scatter lasers, 3x wraithknights. That clocks in at 1716 points, or approximately the same price point as 1 farseer, 3 wraithknights and 4 serpents with DAVUs in the old book. The serpents pack less firepower as the winder riders at 36" (24 S6 and ~18 S7 vs 72 S6), but are much more resilient (ignore S5 and below, virtually immune to S6, and take less damage from any weapon less than S10). Kill a single jetbike and they take morale and lots of armies can kill 3 MEQs much easier than an AV12 serpent. Thunderfires, Wyverns, and other barrage weapons now have great targets. The wraithknights shooting is slightly better now (d6+6 wounds, no saves on a "6" instead of Instant Death with saves) but its resiliency is through the roof now as a gargantuan creature. The psychic phase got a huge boost with the two additional farseers who are better than before.
So what do you have overall in this example? A much shootier army that is less resilient than before. It's much easier to clean up the supporting units here and leave the wraithknights stranded where they can't kill enough ObSec units quickly enough to win. Every lost jetbike squad is also a much bigger loss in firepower (12 S6 shots) than the loss of a single serpent (4 S6, ~4.5 S7). The new Eldar list also has fewer ObSec units (6) than the old (8).
PanzerLeader wrote: Lets look at a specific spammy example: 3 jet bike farseers, 6x 3 windriders with scatter lasers, 3x wraithknights.
Older Serpent Spam builds were viable. A random off-the-top 'spammy' list is sure to be a poor comparison. Just because you can field 3 CAD doesn't mean you should. Also, correct me if I'm wrong... but the triple jet bike squads with no upgrades were considered one of the best troop choices in-the-game. Has that changed? Are you forced to take upgrades on any/all of your jetbikes?
The wraithknights shooting is slightly better now (d6+6 wounds, no saves on a "6" instead of Instant Death with saves)
1 wound vs d6+6 is not slightly better. Not even close.
So what do you have overall in this example?
My point being, this is a bad example. Once good synergies and combos arrive after some trail & error, we can see specifics then. However, what we can all see now, is that there is potentially for hugely powerful army lists, far above what is about currently.
Scatterlasers are nice. But a good shooting platform (say a 95 point Predator with HB sponsons) stands a great chance of killing a 81 point 3 windrider, 3 scatterlaser squad before they kill or disable the tank
Also to respond to this... I would advise that you base your arguments on reasonable assessments. Otherwise you may be misleading to others. A 95pt tank (moves 6") that shoots 8xbs4 shots, wounding on 2's, kills 1.49 bikes (1-2 bikes). Also, a good shooting platform a HB Predator is not - Very sub-par str5/7 firepower. The bikes can move 12" and use the JSJ moves to maneuver out of LOS. All of that does not constitute a 'great chance'.
PanzerLeader wrote: Lets look at a specific spammy example: 3 jet bike farseers, 6x 3 windriders with scatter lasers, 3x wraithknights.
Older Serpent Spam builds were viable. A random off-the-top 'spammy' list is sure to be a poor comparison. Just because you can field 3 CAD doesn't mean you should. Also, correct me if I'm wrong... but the triple jet bike squads with no upgrades were considered one of the best troop choices in-the-game. Has that changed? Are you forced to take upgrades on any/all of your jetbikes?
The wraithknights shooting is slightly better now (d6+6 wounds, no saves on a "6" instead of Instant Death with saves)
1 wound vs d6+6 is not slightly better. Not even close.
So what do you have overall in this example?
My point being, this is a bad example. Once good synergies and combos arrive after some trail & error, we can see specifics then. However, what we can all see now, is that there is potentially for hugely powerful army lists, far above what is about currently.
Scatterlasers are nice. But a good shooting platform (say a 95 point Predator with HB sponsons) stands a great chance of killing a 81 point 3 windrider, 3 scatterlaser squad before they kill or disable the tank
Also to respond to this... I would advise that you base your arguments on reasonable assessments. Otherwise you may be misleading to others. A 95pt tank (moves 6") that shoots 8xbs4 shots, wounding on 2's, kills 1.49 bikes (1-2 bikes). Also, a good shooting platform a HB Predator is not - Very sub-par str5/7 firepower. The bikes can move 12" and use the JSJ moves to maneuver out of LOS. All of that does not constitute a 'great chance'.
It is only slightly better. The real boon comes on a "D" table result of 2-5 where the wraith knight now inflicts d3+1 wounds against multiple wound models with T6+. Against single wound and T5 or lower multiwound models, there is not significant improvement from S10, AP2.
It is not an off the top spammy list. Look at some of the other threads. Jetbike spam is one considered one of the new things. It was even specifically mentioned as a serpent replacement by someone else earlier in this thread. I don't think its good, obviously.
The Predator can also move up to 18" and turn to face AV13 to counter the jet bikes move. Given enough terrain, the two units can have a standoff in a void the entire time. The bikes can't risk exposing themselves (because 1-2 bikes is 33% to 66% of the squad) but the Predator can predict the 12" move and reposition so the bikes can't hurt it without being exposed for a turn. Its a reasonable example given the low points and relative strengths of the two.
There are some good synergies and combos in the new book. I never said the new Eldar book was bad. I didn't even say it was average. It is a GOOD codex. I think a competitive Eldar list will still include 2 units of ObSec bikes for objective grabbing and 1-2 DAVU waveserpents for resilient ObSec and then a combination of reapers and fire dragons to cover the gaps. But Eldar are no longer as simple to play either. The boosts to infantry made units very specialist and you have to use them with more precision than before. You can't just flit around the table, using 60" serpent shields to plink away and then boost in at the end of the game anymore.
Jain zar lowering ini by 5 as a 6" bubble. combined with 10 warp spiders for example - 20 wounding on 2 shots vs anything.
sanctuary is brilliant, and should be purple, if you run a seer council. with would give thema 3+ inv and eldrad a 2+. with fortune even nastier. with invis? muahahaha
Homeskillet wrote: Sorry Panzer, you're on an island here. The elves are broke as all hell.
I don't mind being on an island. I respect the new elves but I don't fear them in the way that rest of the community seems too.
No wonder when your delusional enough to recommend a dakka predator as a counter to the scatbikes. Was that a serious suggestion? You must be ing
Your also going to suggest that the D weapon is only a slight upgrade from S10? WTF? It's like you have never played a serious game. Single shot low AP weapons struggle against vehicles and MC's, yet sD makes a mockery of such things. Even worse in template form.
So while my previous post was short, I'd say it was much more grounded in reality and constructive then multiple paragraphs of uneducated handwaving.
Your also making the very stupid mistake of judging a books power level based upon house rules. That's right, any TO's packet restricting abusive unit types and rules are just that, house rules. Not 40k, but that TO's opinion of what 40k should be. That very fact illustrates how broken a book is. Are you making comments assuming a 2 CAD, unique limit? Banned ranged D? No LoW? My guess is you are, guess what bub those very restrictions are proof it's that busted.
Homeskillet wrote: Sorry Panzer, you're on an island here. The elves are broke as all hell.
I don't mind being on an island. I respect the new elves but I don't fear them in the way that rest of the community seems too.
No wonder when your delusional enough to recommend a dakka predator as a counter to the scatbikes. Was that a serious suggestion? You must be ing
Your also going to suggest that the D weapon is only a slight upgrade from S10? WTF? It's like you have never played a serious game. Single shot low AP weapons struggle against vehicles and MC's, yet sD makes a mockery of such things. Even worse in template form.
So while my previous post was short, I'd say it was much more grounded in reality and constructive then multiple paragraphs of uneducated handwaving.
Your also making the very stupid mistake of judging a books power level based upon house rules. That's right, any TO's packet restricting abusive unit types and rules are just that, house rules. Not 40k, but that TO's opinion of what 40k should be. That very fact illustrates how broken a book is. Are you making comments assuming a 2 CAD, unique limit? Banned ranged D? No LoW? My guess is you are, guess what bub those very restrictions are proof it's that busted.
Homeskillet wrote: Sorry Panzer, you're on an island here. The elves are broke as all hell.
I don't mind being on an island. I respect the new elves but I don't fear them in the way that rest of the community seems too.
No wonder when your delusional enough to recommend a dakka predator as a counter to the scatbikes. Was that a serious suggestion? You must be ing
Your also going to suggest that the D weapon is only a slight upgrade from S10? WTF? It's like you have never played a serious game. Single shot low AP weapons struggle against vehicles and MC's, yet sD makes a mockery of such things. Even worse in template form.
So while my previous post was short, I'd say it was much more grounded in reality and constructive then multiple paragraphs of uneducated handwaving.
Your also making the very stupid mistake of judging a books power level based upon house rules. That's right, any TO's packet restricting abusive unit types and rules are just that, house rules. Not 40k, but that TO's opinion of what 40k should be. That very fact illustrates how broken a book is. Are you making comments assuming a 2 CAD, unique limit? Banned ranged D? No LoW? My guess is you are, guess what bub those very restrictions are proof it's that busted.
I didn't recommend the dakka predator as a counter. Truth asked for a similar priced unit that could defeat scatter bike. I provided one.
Read what I wrote carefully. S D is a marginal upgrade against single wound models and T5 and below multiple wound models. S D is a significant upgrade against T6+ multiple wound models. Strength D is also better against vehicles. The biggest difference occurs when you roll a "6" on the chart and ignore saves.
What house rules am I using? The list I posted as a sample was a 3 CAD list with 3 Lords of War, all with ranged D. I'm making no such assumptions. I make it a point of keeping key variables (like terrain and the enemy's ability to respond) as part of my analysis rather than simply looking at a unit or a Codex in a vacuum. Scatter bikes are good, but no one has mentioned how other mobile, popular units (like White Scars bikers) can threaten them by hiding out of LOS and using that 36" threat range to keep them honest. Sicarian tanks are a popular choice and will mow down exposed squads while being relatively immune to return fire, especially if in cover. Grav centurions, who can now be drop podded, still work well against wraithknights as do fast assault units with a powerfist or axe of khorne.
I love how a multiple GT winner and consistantly good placing player is uninformed, and has never played a "serious" game RC. I actually agree with most of what panzer has said except I do believe Eldar are a great codex(not unbeatable but definately top of the heap). And his counter of scat bikes with a dakka pred is brilliant. It's simple math 6+D6 is max value 12, dakka pred front armor is 13 and has similar range to fire back.
What I want to know is why my Wyches couldn't have been on equal terms with Banshee's.
All my girls sitting and watching the Kabalites go to war with the Freakshow..thinking when do we mount up?
Just wait for the real crying to start when the new Space Marine Codex drops.
We ALL know how GW loves their Marines.
Chancetragedy wrote: I love how a multiple GT winner and consistantly good placing player is uninformed, and has never played a "serious" game RC. I actually agree with most of what panzer has said except I do believe Eldar are a great codex(not unbeatable but definately top of the heap). And his counter of scat bikes with a dakka pred is brilliant. It's simple math 6+D6 is max value 12, dakka pred front armor is 13 and has similar range to fire back.
Well this is how certain discussions on message boards develop. It's a shout down. The angry mob posts as much as they can and drown the voices of dissent. For every guy who disagrees, no matter who he is and what his merits are, and no matter what his argument is, you'll get a dozen replies shouting him down and ridiculing his post's subject matter as well as often the person himself.
I for one agree with PanzerLeader wholeheartedly. I think I also qualify as a grey hunter of sorts since I've played 40K for over 20 years, so I've seen all sorts of army books.
People are so fast to claim they know what the community will and will not agree with, and what will or won't be allowed. Personally I'm very confident that once the dust settles everything in the Codex: Eldar will be allowed at GW's appointed points costs, but a few blanket modifications to D weapons and/or GCs/SHVs will be in place to keep it in check, just like there were small modifications to 2+ re-rollable invulnerable saves and other similar issues.
Dakka predators are not realistic answers as nobody but list tailors would take them and its very easy for jetbikes to hide turn one and find side armor when its their turn.
Chancetragedy wrote: I love how a multiple GT winner and consistantly good placing player is uninformed, and has never played a "serious" game RC. I actually agree with most of what panzer has said except I do believe Eldar are a great codex(not unbeatable but definately top of the heap). And his counter of scat bikes with a dakka pred is brilliant. It's simple math 6+D6 is max value 12, dakka pred front armor is 13 and has similar range to fire back.
Ah buts its not! A dakka pred has side armour 11 and has a 6" move to re-position. On the other hand, bikes can turbo-boost or move 12" and JSJ. In terms of having the ability to protect itself, surely the bikes come out tops? Or at the very least, it is not clear-cut.
I do agree something like a Wyvern would be a good counter. It has range, ignores LOS, has the right kind of firepower to force wounds in a reliable way.
I think the abuse that the previous Eldar codex was capable of will continue, unless changes are made. I do concede that the smaller changes the better (check out my new post..!), it could actually be very minor. Things like the scat-bikes may just force a meta change.
@Orock - It wasn't presented as a realistic answer. It was presented as a similarly priced unit that could counter scatbikes. There is a difference, it's just one example trying to calm down the hysteria over the Eldar book.
Edit@razerious. It's pretty easy to deny jetbikes shooting at side armor by putting the predsin a corner. But we could argue all day over stuff like hypothetical positioning and such. But you have the right idea, wyverns are another good one although the AV12 front might get busted quickly unless hidden out of sight.
Orock wrote: Dakka predators are not realistic answers as nobody but list tailors would take them and its very easy for jetbikes to hide turn one and find side armor when its their turn.
This has been covered. The jet bikes boost to hide out of LOS in the predators side armor. The predator player backs up 12" and turns his AV13 to face the jet bikes. The jet bikes now cannot reach the side armor with a 12" jump and so reposition again for a shoot next turn, causing the predator to reposition. Its a literal stand off in a vacuum with neither unit being able to leverage an advantage on its own. You could do the same thing with the newly popular Sicarians who are front AV 13, side AV 12.
Thanks for the acknowledgement Therion and Chance.
Chancetragedy wrote: I love how a multiple GT winner and consistantly good placing player is uninformed, and has never played a "serious" game RC. I actually agree with most of what panzer has said except I do believe Eldar are a great codex(not unbeatable but definately top of the heap). And his counter of scat bikes with a dakka pred is brilliant. It's simple math 6+D6 is max value 12, dakka pred front armor is 13 and has similar range to fire back.
Ah buts its not! A dakka pred has side armour 11 and has a 6" move to re-position. On the other hand, bikes can turbo-boost or move 12" and JSJ. In terms of having the ability to protect itself, surely the bikes come out tops? Or at the very least, it is not clear-cut.
I do agree something like a Wyvern would be a good counter. It has range, ignores LOS, has the right kind of firepower to force wounds in a reliable way.
I think the abuse that the previous Eldar codex was capable of will continue, unless changes are made. I do concede that the smaller changes the better (check out my new post..!), it could actually be very minor. Things like the scat-bikes may just force a meta change.
The predator has 18 inches of movement to reposition (12 inch move plus 6 inch flatout). In a vacuum, it can keep front AV 13 to the bikes all day while the bikes keep boosting from LOS-blocking terrain to LOS-blocking terrain to try for a flank shot. The bikes can only move 12 before shooting making it very easy to deny a flank shot.
There are a lot of good units but probably what will happen is someone wins a GT and that will define what a large percentage of competitive eldar players bring to big events. WK will most likely be limited to 0-1... Have to wait and see what happens with D. I think if ranged D is allowed it will open the door to a lot of Forgeworld units in an escalation race. Lots of D changes everything.
A vaccum is a terrible way to try and justify the hands down best point for points troops in the game are not overpowered. You might as well say the other guy could just use 3 land raiders and the eldar player would be completely helpless! You cannot justify a cheezy unit because " specific the unit that nobody uses and would be a terrible choice in any other matchup has a partial counter to said cheeze unit". I guess you think decurion wraiths are a o.k. because someone could run multiple units of 30 fearless grots and conciecably tie them up all game?
Dozer Blades wrote: There are a lot of good units but probably what will happen is someone wins a GT and that will define what a large percentage of competitive eldar players bring to big events. WK will most likely be limited to 0-1... Have to wait and see what happens with D. I think if ranged D is allowed it will open the door to a lot of Forgeworld units in an escalation race. Lots of D changes everything.
That is true. If the Eldar ranged D is allowed in tourney play, then that should open the door to Forgeworld ranged D and even ignores cover weapons.
However
Imperial Knights didn't open the door to forgeworld superheavies so ..................
Orock wrote: A vaccum is a terrible way to try and justify the hands down best point for points troops in the game are not overpowered. You might as well say the other guy could just use 3 land raiders and the eldar player would be completely helpless! You cannot justify a cheezy unit because " specific the unit that nobody uses and would be a terrible choice in any other matchup has a partial counter to said cheeze unit". I guess you think decurion wraiths are a o.k. because someone could run multiple units of 30 fearless grots and conciecably tie them up all game?
Dude, read my posts. I'm not trying to justify a cheesy unit. My whole point is "Eldar scatterbikes are good, but there are units out there that provide challenges for them." The humble little Predator happens to be one example in generally the same price range (81 points for 3 bikes, 95 points for one predator). That's it.
Added some maths. Added allies. Re-did D weapons assuming no comp.
As for a dakka pred? Maybe, but a sicaran will more than likely be there and it will absolutely destroy bikes every turn. Bikes are dangerous to just about every vehicle and infantry, but die just as fast as marines. Definitely not the same as running serpent spam. Realistically I don't think 10 man units of bikes are that viable with how large their foot print is. You'll never be able to hide them. Smaller 3-6 man units seem more advisable since you can actually take advantage of their assault move and hide.
Also I think people are straight up over looking guardian squads. Preferred enemy on vypers, war walkers, and support weapons is amazing, and with the auto 6" run they are very mobile units with free heavy weapons. At 9 points a model their durability isn't that big of an issue.
Chancetragedy wrote: I love how a multiple GT winner and consistantly good placing player is uninformed, and has never played a "serious" game RC. I actually agree with most of what panzer has said except I do believe Eldar are a great codex(not unbeatable but definately top of the heap). And his counter of scat bikes with a dakka pred is brilliant. It's simple math 6+D6 is max value 12, dakka pred front armor is 13 and has similar range to fire back.
I don't care how many tournaments a persons sig has listed, or how many they have won when they post stupid things. That's a major pit fall in the community, the same large tournament attenders LOVE patting each other on the back and acting like know it alls on the net despite making some seriously silly claims, all while using the most busted abusive mechanics in the game.
Also way to prove my point, his listed tournaments are all heavily comped house rule 40k, we are discussing a broken book RAW. When you come onto a forum and assume everyone plays the same watered down version of 40k and tell them all to L2P, expect to catch a bloody nose.
"No the Eldar are completely fine!" He said as he waits for his scatbikes to arrive.
Chancetragedy wrote: I love how a multiple GT winner and consistantly good placing player is uninformed, and has never played a "serious" game RC. I actually agree with most of what panzer has said except I do believe Eldar are a great codex(not unbeatable but definately top of the heap). And his counter of scat bikes with a dakka pred is brilliant. It's simple math 6+D6 is max value 12, dakka pred front armor is 13 and has similar range to fire back.
Well this is how certain discussions on message boards develop. It's a shout down. The angry mob posts as much as they can and drown the voices of dissent. For every guy who disagrees, no matter who he is and what his merits are, and no matter what his argument is, you'll get a dozen replies shouting him down and ridiculing his post's subject matter as well as often the person himself.
I for one agree with PanzerLeader wholeheartedly. I think I also qualify as a grey hunter of sorts since I've played 40K for over 20 years, so I've seen all sorts of army books.
People are so fast to claim they know what the community will and will not agree with, and what will or won't be allowed. Personally I'm very confident that once the dust settles everything in the Codex: Eldar will be allowed at GW's appointed points costs, but a few blanket modifications to D weapons and/or GCs/SHVs will be in place to keep it in check, just like there were small modifications to 2+ re-rollable invulnerable saves and other similar issues.
Nice argument from authority chief.
I have played for 20 years as well and I am not going to hand wave a busted codex as fine.
I also find it hilarious coming from the same guy that wrote this:
Spoiler:
Therion wrote: I may need to add that if the Wraithknight is 295 point it seems pretty good value for what it can (apparently) do.
That said, I think the thing needed to be buffed. Sure people were using it in its current form already, but it was mostly because the Eldar army really needed such a thing to counter things it can't otherwise fight, but the fact that nobody allied Wraithknights into other armies spoke volumes about how points effective it was. Riptides on the other hand are often allied into forces.
So if we hypothetically would say that it could cost 240 with the previous S10 upgraded to S D, the extra 55 points are coming from the new poison resistance, feel no pain and stomp attacks. What else is it getting? If there's not much else, then 295 points should be pretty balanced as far as the 'good stuff' in 40K usually goes. If it's getting additional wounds or other stat increases too then it might be undercosted.
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Chancetragedy wrote: @Orock - It wasn't presented as a realistic answer. It was presented as a similarly priced unit that could counter scatbikes. There is a difference, it's just one example trying to calm down the hysteria over the Eldar book.
Edit@razerious. It's pretty easy to deny jetbikes shooting at side armor by putting the predsin a corner. But we could argue all day over stuff like hypothetical positioning and such. But you have the right idea, wyverns are another good one although the AV12 front might get busted quickly unless hidden out of sight.
So now its hysteria? Again, same smug talking heads telling us it's fine that will play a heavily comped version of the game and who 90% will end up playing the very same crap their defending.
@ Red Corsair: Calm down and lets have a discussion. First, I'm not waiting for any Eldar bits to arrive. Lets clear that up front. I really have no interest in playing Eldar and the only time I'll do so is at ATC if that's the army my team wants me to play. My current army of choice is an 1850 Sisters/AMTAC list that I brought to Vegas and still managed a respectable placement (20th overall) even though I had no super heavies, no psykers, no Forgeworld, and no D weapons. That includes playing against an AdLance formation, 2 Eldar lists with a lynx, a 7 FMC tyranid list, AV13 Necron spam and a Green Tide. I do my analysis using an action-reaction-counterreaction cycle and after looking through the Eldar book again, I'm still confident that I can beat it on the table top with my current list so long as there is average terrain.
Why specifically do you think its so busted? You never even answered that. You just launched a bunch of personal attacks without adding any constructive value to the thread. So lets act like the adults we theoretically are and have a real discussion or just leave us alone so we can have a discussion without spurious insults.
Edit: And as always, I'm willing to settle all questions over a game and a beverage of choice if you're anywhere near the Boston area.
I see a lot of wailing from people who are probably bad at this game.
I'm willing to wager we'll get a rebalancing of subsequent codexes up to this power level, along with internal rebalance so GW actually sells models they've neglected in the past.
zerosignal wrote: I see a lot of wailing from people who are probably bad at this game.
I'm willing to wager we'll get a rebalancing of subsequent codexes up to this power level, along with internal rebalance so GW actually sells models they've neglected in the past.
Or, the status quo will be maintained, as it has been for a great many years, with balance between codices varying wildly from faction to faction. If I was a gambling man, I'd bet on things being about the same as they always have been going forward.
Orock wrote: Dakka predators are not realistic answers as nobody but list tailors would take them and its very easy for jetbikes to hide turn one and find side armor when its their turn.
This has been covered. The jet bikes boost to hide out of LOS in the predators side armor. The predator player backs up 12" and turns his AV13 to face the jet bikes. The jet bikes now cannot reach the side armor with a 12" jump and so reposition again for a shoot next turn, causing the predator to reposition. Its a literal stand off in a vacuum with neither unit being able to leverage an advantage on its own. You could do the same thing with the newly popular Sicarians who are front AV 13, side AV 12.
Thanks for the acknowledgement Therion and Chance.
I don't think I get how the predator tank is in any way countering the jetbikes. The situation you're describing has the predator tank using 18" of movement just to stay alive meaning it can't put out any shots or accomplish anything in the game. I'm looking at this as the jetbikes are completely negating the tank by preventing him from doing anything in the game while still getting to shoot at other units and earning their points back. Seems to me more like the jetbikes are eliminating two units for their cost in this situation.
As far as power level concerns and questions as to why people make the claim that they're OP, it's based on comparisons to what other armies have for the same cost. Take a unit of firedragons and compare them to a unit of blasterborn now. The fire dragons get 5 shots instead of 4 (and I think you can assume BS5 base now instead of bs 4), have a 3+ save instead of a 5+ save, are AP1 melta (with an extra +1 on the damage table) instead of AP2 lance, get to run and shoot or shoot and run allowing them to cripple common threats like imperial knights, and for a mere 10 points get an exarch with improved WS, BS, W, I, A, and rerolls on hit/pen while the dark eldar pay 10 points just to get the extra A. The biggest slap in the face here is that the Blasterborn cost 125 points for this unit making the fire dragons cheaper to boot!
We could do some similar examples for Windrider jetbikes compared to Reaver Jetbikes or Howling Banshees compared to Wyches if you'd like. The problem is, the Eldar are getting significantly more for their points than other armies in the game. That's what is making them overpowered and it unbalances the armies.
I'm up for the challenge to face them because it'll mean something to me when I do pull of a win against them, but I do think this was a poorly balanced codex compared to what others have at their disposal. Yes, I agree that it is fun as hell and I wish every codex had as much stuff that seems fun and awesome in it, but that's not the world we're in and now they're standing on the shoulders of their opponents.
Orock wrote: Dakka predators are not realistic answers as nobody but list tailors would take them and its very easy for jetbikes to hide turn one and find side armor when its their turn.
This has been covered. The jet bikes boost to hide out of LOS in the predators side armor. The predator player backs up 12" and turns his AV13 to face the jet bikes. The jet bikes now cannot reach the side armor with a 12" jump and so reposition again for a shoot next turn, causing the predator to reposition. Its a literal stand off in a vacuum with neither unit being able to leverage an advantage on its own. You could do the same thing with the newly popular Sicarians who are front AV 13, side AV 12.
Thanks for the acknowledgement Therion and Chance.
I don't think I get how the predator tank is in any way countering the jetbikes. The situation you're describing has the predator tank using 18" of movement just to stay alive meaning it can't put out any shots or accomplish anything in the game. I'm looking at this as the jetbikes are completely negating the tank by preventing him from doing anything in the game while still getting to shoot at other units and earning their points back. Seems to me more like the jetbikes are eliminating two units for their cost in this situation.
As far as power level concerns and questions as to why people make the claim that they're OP, it's based on comparisons to what other armies have for the same cost. Take a unit of firedragons and compare them to a unit of blasterborn now. The fire dragons get 5 shots instead of 4 (and I think you can assume BS5 base now instead of bs 4), have a 3+ save instead of a 5+ save, are AP1 melta (with an extra +1 on the damage table) instead of AP2 lance, get to run and shoot or shoot and run allowing them to cripple common threats like imperial knights, and for a mere 10 points get an exarch with improved WS, BS, W, I, A, and rerolls on hit/pen while the dark eldar pay 10 points just to get the extra A. The biggest slap in the face here is that the Blasterborn cost 125 points for this unit making the fire dragons cheaper to boot!
We could do some similar examples for Windrider jetbikes compared to Reaver Jetbikes or Howling Banshees compared to Wyches if you'd like. The problem is, the Eldar are getting significantly more for their points than other armies in the game. That's what is making them overpowered and it unbalances the armies.
I'm up for the challenge to face them because it'll mean something to me when I do pull of a win against them, but I do think this was a poorly balanced codex compared to what others have at their disposal. Yes, I agree that it is fun as hell and I wish every codex had as much stuff that seems fun and awesome in it, but that's not the world we're in and now they're standing on the shoulders of their opponents.
In the vacuum example, its a mutual negation. The Eldar jetbikes have to forfeit shooting to keep boosting around to get a flank shot on the tank. In a proper game where each unit gets mutual support, the context is completely different. The Predator wouldn't be worried about moving in that context because there'd be other units to handle things flanking it.
Trueborn are also more versatile than Firedragons. You can make a unit of Trueborn with 4 S6 blasts. Trueborn are also troop choices and so can have OBSEC in a CAD. They also have access to cheap, 55 point transports that they can fire out of to full effect. Firedragons have to expose themselves to shoot and get inside 6" to make the maximum effect of their weapon. They'll be exposed and your almost guaranteed to trade the entire unit for a single vehicle kill, especially if they have to run first to guarantee melta range. Trueborn can use a venom or raider to move up a flank and hang at the 12" mark while still making full use of their weapons from inside, giving them an additional layer of protection. Different strengths. The biggest difference in anti-tank capability is against super-heavy vehicles, where Fire Dragons really shine.
In the vacuum example, its a mutual negation. The Eldar jetbikes have to forfeit shooting to keep boosting around to get a flank shot on the tank. In a proper game where each unit gets mutual support, the context is completely different. The Predator wouldn't be worried about moving in that context because there'd be other units to handle things flanking it.
Trueborn are also more versatile than Firedragons. You can make a unit of Trueborn with 4 S6 blasts. Trueborn are also troop choices and so can have OBSEC in a CAD. They also have access to cheap, 55 point transports that they can fire out of to full effect. Firedragons have to expose themselves to shoot and get inside 6" to make the maximum effect of their weapon. They'll be exposed and your almost guaranteed to trade the entire unit for a single vehicle kill, especially if they have to run first to guarantee melta range. Trueborn can use a venom or raider to move up a flank and hang at the 12" mark while still making full use of their weapons from inside, giving them an additional layer of protection. Different strengths. The biggest difference in anti-tank capability is against super-heavy vehicles, where Fire Dragons really shine.
In an isolated example, the bikes can block the tank to prevent it from moving. Even if it only interferes with a few inches of movement for the tank, it allows the bikes to get in the side arcs to kill the predator tank. He can try to tank shock them, but then he can't move flat out so again the bikes get to hit the side armor and kill it. The tank does not negate the bikes even in an isolated example.
Trueborn are not troop choices and do not have objective secured. Few people would argue that the venom is a more desirable transport than a wave serpent or grav tank and fire dragons also have very easy access to venoms as well, but are you comparing venoms to wave serpents then or fire dragons to trueborn? Sure, you can give trueborn shredders instead, but then their output suffers even more compared to the Eldar units. What is being demonstrated there is that the Dark Eldar are versatilely worse than Eldar units.
The trueborn are strictly inferior at all ranges and against all targets because they have less shots with lower BS and worse bonuses on the damage table (in addition to worse survivability). This is not an advantage specific to super heavy tanks as you're claiming either since even if your target is a monstrous creature or elite unit, having more shots at a higher BS with increased survivability and at a lower cost is universally better. If you don't believe me, crunch some numbers. Even when they're outside of melta range against AV 10 the fire dragons average 1.5 explodes results with their shots while the trueborn average 0.3 explodes results. Put them in melta range and the fire dragons are just embarassing their peers. Where is your reasoning coming from that they're only better against superheavies? Perhaps you want to crunch them against against a target like a Riptide? the trueborn average 1.5 wounds from their shooting while the fire dragons average 2.5. Nope, that didn't work either. To add insult to injury, despite paying less points for the firedragons and their output being strictly superior, they also come with melta bombs standard, so if you happen to fail to kill something with their extraordinaire numbers, feel free to assault and finish the target off.
The fact that one army can pay 10 points for captains with +1 WS, BS, W, I, and A while also getting absurd bonuses like "deep strike without scatter for the entire unit" or "reroll to hit/wound" is obscene when other armies pay 10 points for +1 A and in some cases +1 LD. It's a direct example of Eldar getting far more for their points than other armies. I'm sorry bud, but if you think those concepts are balanced consider that in sports 90% of the fans of the home team will declare a foul was a bad call by the refs while simultaneously 90% of the fans of the away team will say it was a good call. I think your bias is influencing your assertions on this.
lessthanjeff wrote: In an isolated example, the bikes can block the tank to prevent it from moving. Even if it only interferes with a few inches of movement for the tank, it allows the bikes to get in the side arcs to kill the predator tank. He can try to tank shock them, but then he can't move flat out so again the bikes get to hit the side armor and kill it. The tank does not negate the bikes even in an isolated example.
How do you stop the vehicle from moving backwards? The tanks and bikes would actually enter a stalemate in an isolated example. If there are board edges then the tank actually can "win" the example by using a corner to protect it's sides and rears. The bikes win if the tank has to take dangerous terrain checks.
lessthanjeff wrote: Trueborn are not troop choices and do not have objective secured. Few people would argue that the venom is a more desirable transport than a wave serpent or grav tank and fire dragons also have very easy access to venoms as well, but are you comparing venoms to wave serpents then or fire dragons to trueborn? Sure, you can give trueborn shredders instead, but then their output suffers even more compared to the Eldar units. What is being demonstrated there is that the Dark Eldar are versatilely worse than Eldar units.
The trueborn are strictly inferior at all ranges and against all targets because they have less shots with lower BS and worse bonuses on the damage table (in addition to worse survivability). This is not an advantage specific to super heavy tanks as you're claiming either since even if your target is a monstrous creature or elite unit, having more shots at a higher BS with increased survivability and at a lower cost is universally better. If you don't believe me, crunch some numbers. Even when they're outside of melta range against AV 10 the fire dragons average 1.5 explodes results with their shots while the trueborn average 0.3 explodes results. Put them in melta range and the fire dragons are just embarassing their peers. Where is your reasoning coming from that they're only better against superheavies? Perhaps you want to crunch them against against a target like a Riptide? the trueborn average 1.5 wounds from their shooting while the fire dragons average 2.5. Nope, that didn't work either. To add insult to injury, despite paying less points for the firedragons and their output being strictly superior, they also come with melta bombs standard, so if you happen to fail to kill something with their extraordinaire numbers, feel free to assault and finish the target off.
The funny thing about this comparison is that blaster born are considered extremely inferior within their own codex. I find it very strange when people compare what are largely considered junk units which few people actually ever take to another unit and then use that comparison to determine whether said unit is under priced...if the fire dragons were balanced to be even with a unit of blaster born then they would rarely ever be taken.
BTW the only thing that makes blasterborn even worth considering is the ability to DS them in with a venom or ravager and either shoot from inside the transport or gain extra range by disembarking them. There is a nice trick using a ravager to avoid an imperial knights shield.
lessthanjeff wrote: The fact that one army can pay 10 points for captains with +1 WS, BS, W, I, and A while also getting absurd bonuses like "deep strike without scatter for the entire unit" or "reroll to hit/wound" is obscene when other armies pay 10 points for +1 A and in some cases +1 LD. It's a direct example of Eldar getting far more for their points than other armies. I'm sorry bud, but if you think those concepts are balanced consider that in sports 90% of the fans of the home team will declare a foul was a bad call by the refs while simultaneously 90% of the fans of the away team will say it was a good call. I think your bias is influencing your assertions on this.
10 pts is for vet sarges is a rip off. Hopefully GW continues this trend of +10 pts for +1 WS, BS, W, I, and A so that people actually use the upgrade with some regularity. In reality though it is a questionable value for most of the aspect warriors as it is more efficient just to get another model. That is double the attacks, double the shots, and double the wounds. Though +1 Ld is something adding more models does not bring...which CWE don't get and your example opposites do.
How do you stop the vehicle from moving backwards? The tanks and bikes would actually enter a stalemate in an isolated example. If there are board edges then the tank actually can "win" the example by using a corner to protect it's sides and rears. The bikes win if the tank has to take dangerous terrain checks.
The funny thing about this comparison is that blaster born are considered extremely inferior within their own codex. I find it very strange when people compare what are largely considered junk units which few people actually ever take to another unit and then use that comparison to determine whether said unit is under priced...if the fire dragons were balanced to be even with a unit of blaster born then they would rarely ever be taken.
BTW the only thing that makes blasterborn even worth considering is the ability to DS them in with a venom or ravager and either shoot from inside the transport or gain extra range by disembarking them. There is a nice trick using a ravager to avoid an imperial knights shield.
10 pts is for vet sarges is a rip off. Hopefully GW continues this trend of +10 pts for +1 WS, BS, W, I, and A so that people actually use the upgrade with some regularity. In reality though it is a questionable value for most of the aspect warriors as it is more efficient just to get another model. That is double the attacks, double the shots, and double the wounds. Though +1 Ld is something adding more models does not bring...which CWE don't get and your example opposites do.
The tank can move backwards all it wants, the jetbikes get to move 48" in a single turn so they can land on top of and around the vehicle. From there, it turns into the situation I was describing. If you park it in a corner then you cannot block both sides from being hit.
Yes, blasterborn are considered pretty lackluster now, but they are still used and were actually considered staples for quite a while, and that's the elite unit we got that most closely resembles the Eldar Fire Dragons. I'd be happy to compare similar tankbusting units from other armies like the chaos chosen I have; less special weapons (capped at 4), less mobility (can't run and shoot), lower BS, lower vehicle damage results, no rerolls to hit/wound/pen for the captain, no melta bombs, lower initiative, and 30 points more expensive (but I'm sure +1 toughness counters all of that). I did say I'd be happy to compare other units in the codex too though, wyches/howling banshees, reavers/windriders, vypers/venoms, falcon/ravager. I'd be happy to make comparisons for other armies too, but it's harder to determine value differences for MEQ when the stat lines are so different even though I still give substantial advantage to the eldar units.
As far as the nice trick of precision deepstriking is concerned, an even nicer trick is taking 3 units of fire dragons to put in 3 falcon grav tanks. You get 3 precision deepstrikes filled with nasties and don't have to pay the 110 point tax per vehicle that DE do for their archon with WWP. Plus, I'd much rather have the falcon gravtanks than the raiders. If you want to avoid the imperial knight's shield, look no further than the fire dragons themselves who can run to the side the shield isn't on before blasting him to bits with far better numbers than the blasterborn offer.
What all of this boils down to for me is that people should be looking at a sample unit like Fire Dragons and saying "Oh, compared to my tank busting infantry, those are faster, stronger, tougher, OR cheaper", not "Oh... those are faster, stronger, tougher, AND cheaper". It's also disconcerting to me that many Eldar players dismiss fire dragons because they consider wraith guard so much better. Here I am thinking I'd kill for something equivalent to fire dragons in most of my armies and instead I find I'm fighting for table scraps from another army.
Edit: almost forgot to mention the comment about the upgrade cost for leadership. I fully believe the only reason the Eldar don't get +1 LD for their captain is because they're already LD 9 base while my units are "profiting" from the +1 LD to go from 8 to 9. It's funny, but also kind of sad if that's what was supposed to balance out all the other stat upgrades.
In the vacuum example, its a mutual negation. The Eldar jetbikes have to forfeit shooting to keep boosting around to get a flank shot on the tank. In a proper game where each unit gets mutual support, the context is completely different. The Predator wouldn't be worried about moving in that context because there'd be other units to handle things flanking it.
Trueborn are also more versatile than Firedragons. You can make a unit of Trueborn with 4 S6 blasts. Trueborn are also troop choices and so can have OBSEC in a CAD. They also have access to cheap, 55 point transports that they can fire out of to full effect. Firedragons have to expose themselves to shoot and get inside 6" to make the maximum effect of their weapon. They'll be exposed and your almost guaranteed to trade the entire unit for a single vehicle kill, especially if they have to run first to guarantee melta range. Trueborn can use a venom or raider to move up a flank and hang at the 12" mark while still making full use of their weapons from inside, giving them an additional layer of protection. Different strengths. The biggest difference in anti-tank capability is against super-heavy vehicles, where Fire Dragons really shine.
In an isolated example, the bikes can block the tank to prevent it from moving. Even if it only interferes with a few inches of movement for the tank, it allows the bikes to get in the side arcs to kill the predator tank. He can try to tank shock them, but then he can't move flat out so again the bikes get to hit the side armor and kill it. The tank does not negate the bikes even in an isolated example.
Trueborn are not troop choices and do not have objective secured. Few people would argue that the venom is a more desirable transport than a wave serpent or grav tank and fire dragons also have very easy access to venoms as well, but are you comparing venoms to wave serpents then or fire dragons to trueborn? Sure, you can give trueborn shredders instead, but then their output suffers even more compared to the Eldar units. What is being demonstrated there is that the Dark Eldar are versatilely worse than Eldar units.
The trueborn are strictly inferior at all ranges and against all targets because they have less shots with lower BS and worse bonuses on the damage table (in addition to worse survivability). This is not an advantage specific to super heavy tanks as you're claiming either since even if your target is a monstrous creature or elite unit, having more shots at a higher BS with increased survivability and at a lower cost is universally better. If you don't believe me, crunch some numbers. Even when they're outside of melta range against AV 10 the fire dragons average 1.5 explodes results with their shots while the trueborn average 0.3 explodes results. Put them in melta range and the fire dragons are just embarassing their peers. Where is your reasoning coming from that they're only better against superheavies? Perhaps you want to crunch them against against a target like a Riptide? the trueborn average 1.5 wounds from their shooting while the fire dragons average 2.5. Nope, that didn't work either. To add insult to injury, despite paying less points for the firedragons and their output being strictly superior, they also come with melta bombs standard, so if you happen to fail to kill something with their extraordinaire numbers, feel free to assault and finish the target off.
The fact that one army can pay 10 points for captains with +1 WS, BS, W, I, and A while also getting absurd bonuses like "deep strike without scatter for the entire unit" or "reroll to hit/wound" is obscene when other armies pay 10 points for +1 A and in some cases +1 LD. It's a direct example of Eldar getting far more for their points than other armies. I'm sorry bud, but if you think those concepts are balanced consider that in sports 90% of the fans of the home team will declare a foul was a bad call by the refs while simultaneously 90% of the fans of the away team will say it was a good call. I think your bias is influencing your assertions on this.
Three bikes cannot block off a predator completely. Even if they do block its forward and lateral movement, the Predator then gets to shoot the bikes and kill 1-2 of them on average, forcing morale and greatly reducing the threat to itself. It's still a stand off.
I missed the slot change on the Trueborn. That's what I get for not double checking. I'm not selling Trueborn are universally better. They have different strengths. In the new Eldar book, you can pick any one aspect and it will outperform virtually every other armies choices in its speciality field. Reapers are by far the best dedicated ranged shooting unit. Dragons are the best AT unit. Avengers are some of the best core infantry now. Warp Spyders are the best jump infantry in the game. But none of them are very resilient on their own. Even with a 3+, T3 hurts. The Eldar's organic DTs don't allow them to shoot from inside and force them to be exposed. You can mitigate some of this with allied DTs but then you run into a whole separate discussion of army building and list context. Looking only within the Eldar book, the infantry are really good but have some weaknesses that can be exploited: they are not very resilient and generally short ranged (under 24"). Once you start going outside the codex, and look at like sized units with similar roles, even the humble marine tactical squad stands a good chance of knocking down an Avenger squad of equal points assuming terrain provides an equal advantage to start.
Bharring wrote: FD aren't tougher than SM melta squads. T3 vs T4 is huge.
Faster on foot, sure. But for a melts drop, much slower ( unless you go with DE).
much more expensive for ablative wounds, and substantially worse in CC too.
I'm not sure which units you're referring to with some of these statements. I didn't say the marines are tougher, in fact I cited that the T4 was the only advantage they had while the fire dragons had 7 advantages over the marines and still cost 30 more points.
Three bikes cannot block off a predator completely. Even if they do block its forward and lateral movement, the Predator then gets to shoot the bikes and kill 1-2 of them on average, forcing morale and greatly reducing the threat to itself. It's still a stand off.
I missed the slot change on the Trueborn. That's what I get for not double checking. I'm not selling Trueborn are universally better. They have different strengths. In the new Eldar book, you can pick any one aspect and it will outperform virtually every other armies choices in its speciality field. Reapers are by far the best dedicated ranged shooting unit. Dragons are the best AT unit. Avengers are some of the best core infantry now. Warp Spyders are the best jump infantry in the game. But none of them are very resilient on their own. Even with a 3+, T3 hurts. The Eldar's organic DTs don't allow them to shoot from inside and force them to be exposed. You can mitigate some of this with allied DTs but then you run into a whole separate discussion of army building and list context. Looking only within the Eldar book, the infantry are really good but have some weaknesses that can be exploited: they are not very resilient and generally short ranged (under 24". Once you start going outside the codex, and look at like sized units with similar roles, even the humble marine tactical squad stands a good chance of knocking down an Avenger squad of equal points assuming terrain provides an equal advantage to start.
I'm not saying they block the predator completely, I'm saying by being placed around the sides of the vehicle it can only make about 14" of separation from the jetbikes, which lets them get into the side arcs by moving 12" at an angle instead of pursuing directly. Then they get their free assault move to move back up to and around the tank. Your scenario setup also seems to imply that the tank can forever move 18" in a direction, is this playing on an infinite board size for some reason? If your tank is shooting, then you're changing the circumstances on how it's going flat out every turn to cause a "stalemate" with the windriders.
Obviously trueborn aren't universally better than fire dragons, I already demonstrated that they're universally worse against all targets. That's why I'm asking where your claims are coming from that the fire dragons are only excelling against super heavies and such. I already showed the math that the 26 point trueborn with a blaster does less damage (against vehicles, monstrous creatures, and infantry), has has less speed (because fire dragons get an extra 6" of movement before or after shooting), is squishier (because 5+ save instead of 3+), and has less options (because no melta bombs), while costing more than the 22 point fire dragon. If you don't see that and wonder why people are saying the Eldar are OP I don't know what to tell you. What the Eldar are getting for their points is not on the same level as what other armies get and I've described several situations where 10 points for an Eldar > 10 points for other armies.
Yeah, T3 with a 3+ does hurt, almost as much as T3 with a 5+ or a 6+ as most other T3 models try to scrape by with. Your infantry having a shorter range isn't a weakness, it's a standard of almost all infantry shooting 24" that the Eldar get to overcome with the 6" run and having several units with higher movement (24" per turn for swooping hawks and average 26" per turn for warp spiders) . Everything in the game has weaknesses that can be exploited, but when you're getting substantially more mileage for your points you get to overwhelm the opponent through value of the units rather than through tactics. You asked what cases cause people to label the Eldar as OP, and I've given several direct comparison to show you paying less for more. Going into the "yeah, but they have their weaknesses" argument is a deflection tactic because the units we're comparing to are going to have the same weaknesses as well. Justify to me why the fire dragon should have all those advantages over his counterpart and I'll listen, but I've not heard an argument that justifies the discrepancies in value for fire dragon to trueborn or exarch to captain for other armies.
Eldar move *d6* inches on the run. With Fleet, its only 6" less than 1/3 of the time.
Let's compare Guardsmen to Guardians.
Guardians have +d6 run, BS 4, and s4 bladestorm guns at 12". At 9ppm.
Guardsmen have S3, and can't run+shoot, but have 24" range. At 5ppm.
If you get within 12", Guardians hit harder. Battle focus, however, only gets you 4" on average closer. So it by no means compensates for range.
Let's assume you let Guardians waltz up to Chaos Marines, while they twiddle their thumbs:
13 Guardians vs 9 CSM (same points)
Guardians (13)(2)(5/27) CSM (counting rends). 4.8 CSM die. 62.4 points worth, or a little better than half their cost.
If CSM instead shot first?
CSM kill (9)(2)(2/3)(2/3)(1) Guardians. 8 Guardians die. 76pts. Substantially better.
So, in the only scenario Guardians can do damage, assuming they are left alone to cross half the field, they do less to CSM than CSM would do to them.
Even with Battle Focus, there is no excuse for a 12" gun to get first salvo.
In the whole 'Open field, nothing else' scenario, it is much, much worse:
13 Guardians vs 9 CSM.
Boltgun shots kill 4/9 Guardians.
Shuriken rounds kill 5/27 CSMs.
-CSM hold off unless Guardians get within 30".
-Guardians try to blitz through the CSM threat range. Starting at 31" (we'll assume they get best-case), they move up 6, and happen to roll a 6" run. 19" away.
-CSM move away, to 24", and shoot
-CSM kill (9)(1)(4/9) Guardians, or 4.
-9 remaining Guardians move up 6", then roll a lucky 6" run (unlikely, but we'll let them). Pretending that gets everyone in range (remember, the dead Guardians came from the front), they can shoot.
-Guardians kill (9)(2)(5/27), or 3.33 CSM.
-5.66 CSM then shoot and kill (17/3)(2)(4/9) Guardians, or 10. So lots of overkill.
Assuming Guardians get really lucky, they kill only a couple CSM before getting outright destroyed. While CSM can control the engagement.
D6 battle focus only does so much.
(Yes, you get auto-6 run in the Warhost formation, but the formations *are* broken).
Ok I'll explain why it’s over the top, at least until the next codex comes out to power creep even more crap . Not all items in this codex are OP, but if you look at everything all at once. It paints a different picture.
CAD only arguments:
Eldar Missile Launchers now do it all. no extra cost nothing, they can do it all. I'm assuming at this point on all flak missiles in the next releases will be free. why not just FAQ all missile launchers get flak for free now
D-Weapons. Hum access to cheap and spamable D-weapons. There was nothing wrong with distort, but it just got better. I haven’t checked but I'm willing to guess, no fraking points increase on those wraithguard or support weapons
jetbike scatterlaser spam, Well GW had to make sure they sold the first run of these in a few days right? Sure armor 13-14 is a great counter to that. while your dakka is concentrated on the bikes the other units will make short work of your high armor.
Aspect Warriors sure they lost customization but what did they gain. Each aspect has a special power that the exarch didn't need to purchase, and the exarch has an extra power as well at no extra cost. Many did need changes to make them worth playing: Banshees, Shining Spears, and Striking Scorpions. A few of the other aspects got unprecedented buffs: Dark Reapers, Swooping Hawks, and Warp Spiders. Dark Reapers are now lower cost with infallible precision, yikes, all codices need some type of anti-flyer and this is it for the Eldar. Is it OP by itself? No, but certainly a powerful boost for a points cut. Swooping Hawks already were a very fast hit and run unit, now they just got faster, again no points cost for 18" jump. Warp Spiders while the monofiliment shooting rules under went changes it’s really a coin toss if it’s any better, but flickerjump is where they get stupid. I hope that RAI it was only to be once per round, but I doubt it. Now they can flickerjump and move away any number of times, only sure way to deal with them is assault them. If you can catch them in the first place. Possible? Very much so but they are going to be a highly frustrating unit to face.
Ahh, the Wraithkinght. I looked at every LoW on Battlescribe nothing can do what it can in that price range. Nothing! Is it beatable yeah sure, but that’s not what everyone is having a problem with. We're have the problem with the fact that nothing can do what it can with a similar points cost. Sooo, what's next GW? Cheaper super heavies and other gargantuan, maybe?
A few CAD lists may be a little much but I doubt they'll make it far. So, on to where the problems compound themselves.
Formation arguements:
So, all the crap above now has gotten stupider. The base hosts are not a problem they seem pretty fair, but the total cost is cheap and allows for a lot of non-sense. but wait is that a auto run of 6 inches for your entire army? battlefocus with out the randomness.
Aspect Shrine or Dire Avenger Shrine: who doesn't like BS 5 base shooty units or WS 5 base assault units FOR FREE?
If one cheap Wraithknight wasn't enough how about 5?
FREE is the problem every gain was for FREE in a army that was already a top competitor. FREEEE
I'm am Eldar Player, I guess I should rejoice right?
(Yes, you get auto-6 run in the Warhost formation, but the formations *are* broken).
Not all of the Eldar dex is broken.
So you're counting on what to prevent eldar players from making broken lists?
As for the guardian vs chaos marine pairing, I'd include the free heavy weapon that the defenders are going to have, and always count a 6" run.
Anyone actually try out seer councils yet?
375 points gives you 8 powers and 11 psychic dice. I missed it the first few times I read the rules, the conclave generates 1 warp charge per warlock, regardless of the current psychic level.
It isn't all that hard to fish for multiple Eldritch Storms, and drop multiple AP3 fleshbane haywire pinning 10" blasts. Yeah, WC4 is high, but you get to re-roll the dice, and only need a 3+ to harness a warp charge. Between needing a 3+ and being able to re-roll, realistically you only need 5 dice, 6 if you want to be safe for a WC4 power.
If the first farseer gets eldrich, the 2nd fishes for invisibility.
Homeskillet wrote: Good call on the majority of the analysis. It's a shame too, because now I again feel like I won't be able to play my Eldar. There are just SO many good units, and the formations are just out of bounds. I envisioned the same idea of an Avatar-led assault-based list for my aspect warriors! I think plenty of other armies will take the Crimson Hunters formation solely as their anti-air/anti-tank option, it is just so good. They get a jink save without jinking?? Come on. This is an uber-strong codex.
I only rank the Codex as "good, but not great" (but take it with a grain of salt because I don't think any of the 7th edition books are universally great). I think you'll find that the Eldar units are a lot less resilient than before and those that are super resilient pay a premium in points. 7 warlocks on jetbikes costs 350 alone. The Craftworld detachment is nice but the command benefit is marginal unless you're playing footdar which means lots of exposed T3 models. A lot of the reroll cover shenanigans are gone so it'll be fairly easy to stack wounds on T3 units and do damage through volume of fire.
Eldar shooting remains best in the game but still suffers from short range. Anything that catches them in an assault will make them wilt and anything that survives to return fire will do some damage.
The wave serpent took a serious nerf and so did warlocks. They can't join units off the conclave now and get far less powers and warpcharges than before. An Eldar force built around a CAD for ObSec is still very good, but lost tons of firepower with the serpent nerf that will be hard to replace and caps out at a single Wraithknight.
Good codex, but not great. I think its balanced very well with the other 7th edition releases.
You are either delusional or play elder and thus will never think your army is by far broken. Look at it this way. Elder was already the army with the highest win percentage with the last codex. This codex buffed every single unit (many significantly) with no point increases (except serpents). Add in auto 6" run and additional bonuses from formations and it is absurd. And anyone who says the new wraith knight isn't severally under-costed is just plain dumb
EML and Flak missiles:
-IoMML costs a Heavy Bolter + 5 pts. +10 for Flak
-EML costs Heavy Bolter equiv + 15 points.
Eldar pay just as much as IoM for Flak, its just that they don't have the option to take a ML without Flak. So no advantage.
We looked at it in other threads, and the most cost-effective manner to field EML (WW) was 10pts more *per ML* than a Dev squad with Flak missiles.
So Flak isn't free for Eldar.
I agree with most of your other points. Scythguard. WK price point. Scatter bikes. Stupid. Formations are the whole stupid sandwich slathered with broken syrup. With a derptastic cherry on top.
I disagree about not being able to look at portions of the codex and see them as reasonable. I really think - and hope - CAD Swordwind, Black Guardian, and Mechanised armies will all be reasonable.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In tournies, sure, Eldar are probably going to be more stupidly good than the last Dex. But not all games are going to be in tournies.
I didn't factor in the Warhost buffs, because I wasn't comparing Warhost guardians. I won't defend that gak. But a CAD I think can be reasonable.
Homeskillet wrote: Good call on the majority of the analysis. It's a shame too, because now I again feel like I won't be able to play my Eldar. There are just SO many good units, and the formations are just out of bounds. I envisioned the same idea of an Avatar-led assault-based list for my aspect warriors! I think plenty of other armies will take the Crimson Hunters formation solely as their anti-air/anti-tank option, it is just so good. They get a jink save without jinking?? Come on. This is an uber-strong codex.
I only rank the Codex as "good, but not great" (but take it with a grain of salt because I don't think any of the 7th edition books are universally great). I think you'll find that the Eldar units are a lot less resilient than before and those that are super resilient pay a premium in points. 7 warlocks on jetbikes costs 350 alone. The Craftworld detachment is nice but the command benefit is marginal unless you're playing footdar which means lots of exposed T3 models. A lot of the reroll cover shenanigans are gone so it'll be fairly easy to stack wounds on T3 units and do damage through volume of fire.
Eldar shooting remains best in the game but still suffers from short range. Anything that catches them in an assault will make them wilt and anything that survives to return fire will do some damage.
The wave serpent took a serious nerf and so did warlocks. They can't join units off the conclave now and get far less powers and warpcharges than before. An Eldar force built around a CAD for ObSec is still very good, but lost tons of firepower with the serpent nerf that will be hard to replace and caps out at a single Wraithknight.
Good codex, but not great. I think its balanced very well with the other 7th edition releases.
You are either delusional or play elder and thus will never think your army is by far broken. Look at it this way. Elder was already the army with the highest win percentage with the last codex. This codex buffed every single unit (many significantly) with no point increases (except serpents). Add in auto 6" run and additional bonuses from formations and it is absurd. And anyone who says the new wraith knight isn't severally under-costed is just plain dumb
And what made Eldar so good in last edition? Oh yeah, thats right the Serpent spam. The Eldar codex is by no means bad but its not going to be the end all be all codex either.
Eldritch storm is a 10" blast if cast at the higher rate. Not 7". And if you have the spirit stone it's cast on 3 warp charge. With a re rollable test being a farseer... Much much better than a green if you ask me.
Bharring, why would your math for guardians not include the free weapons teams and free bonuses the Eldar are getting in their codex? That's rather relevant to people's questions about what makes the Eldar OP. Also, why not crunch the numbers with the troop choice that costs the exact same amount as the CSM? The Dire Avengers are the troop standard in my parts (although I expect a transition to bikes coming).
Dire Avengers get a free BS 5 from the Aspect Host and actually get to fire at their opponents and then run 6" away from the marines preventing them from being rapid fired at in return. The numbers for 10 Dire Avengers (130 points) vs 10 CSM (140 points...) have the Dire Avengers getting 4.6 wounds through vs the CSM's only inflicting 2.2 assuming both were at full strength for their shots. That doesn't even take advantage of the new Dire Avenger Bonus of having improved overwatch or counterattack nor does it include the exarch upgrade which I would consider an automatic choice. It's even scarier when you take them from the Dire Avenger Shrine where they'll average 7 wounds on the CSM in one round of shooting and still cost less than the CSM who only deal 2.2 wounds.
Because many people - myself included - will never use the Warhost. Its broken as gak.
The numbers for CSM vs DA were run in another thread.
Assuming no other models, objectives, board edges, or anything else, on a wide-open board, assuming a 5+ cover save for CSM (something is likely to go their way, and they really control the engagement, as DAs can't battle focus out of full range), it takes 10 rounds for 10 DAs to kill 10 CSM, and they have 1.4 DAs left.
That means equal numbers of DAs cannot push equal numbers of CSM within the span of the game, even if everything except the 5+ cover goes their way. This is with CSM never double tapping.
If the DAs ever need to close in, CSM win easily. If CSM get within 12", they destroy DAs. If they get to charge DAs, they destroy them harder. If DAs ever either don't move into 18", or don't BF back out, CSM win.
So the CSM decide where they stand. They can move almost anywhere that still gives them a 5+. If they can get within 12", or force the DAs to BF for them, CSM win.
So if there is an objective at all, CSM win. If not, its a draw.
Naked CSM is 140 points (75 base plus 13 for the next 5) to Naked Dire Avengers 130, but I'm going to have to ask which formation bonuses and such this was computed with. As I mathed out, the Dire Avenger formation kills 5.6 CSM in the first round of shooting alone even with the 5+ cover save.
This isn't the Warhost formation I'm talking about, and that's nice if you're choosing not to use the formations but for computation purposes they still have it whether you like it or not. It's exactly why people are saying the Eldar are OP and to compute without those bonuses and then say "see, they're not so bad" is disingenuous.
I think the majority of people are mis-understanding how the Warlock Councils work now. You only get powers based on how many warlocks are in the squad. But you get 1 warp charge point for each model on the table each turn. As warlocks die, you lose their warp charge points and once below each of the threshholds, you begin to lose powers. So, with 7 Warlocks you will only have 3 powers, but you will also have 7 warp charge points to spend from the unit.
Then I can't take these computations or arguments seriously and that feels very dishonest to me to spout numbers without saying "I'm ignoring several of the free bonuses that do affect the unit's strength even though there is no additional cost to them".
People aren't saying "the Eldar CAD is OP", they're saying "Eldar are OP" because the Eldar codex has those bonuses in them and they substantially affect their output for no additional cost.
Hesperus wrote: I can't get behind including the Avatar to buff Banshees. Simply put, against most armies the Avatar isn't going to survive long enough to supply the buff. T6/W6/3+/5++ just isn't going to cut it. That's especially true in a footdar list because there won't be many other targets for your opponent's AT weaponry. In general, I don't trust buff models that I can't hide in a unit.
Why can't you march the Avatar behind a T8 Sv3+ Wraithlord (or two)?
GargoyleKing wrote: I think the majority of people are mis-understanding how the Warlock Councils work now. You only get powers based on how many warlocks are in the squad. But you get 1 warp charge point for each model on the table each turn. As warlocks die, you lose their warp charge points and once below each of the threshholds, you begin to lose powers. So, with 7 Warlocks you will only have 3 powers, but you will also have 7 warp charge points to spend from the unit.
Nevermind. I missed that. Great catch and super good for the unit.
Bharring wrote: Isn't that like saying CSM is broken, cause they can ally in a WK?
After all, the rules allow that travesty.
So to be clear, did you pick the most broken unit you could think of for anyone to take and settle on the WK? And no, I wouldn't compare manipulating the numbers and leaving out relevant stats for a unit in a direct comparison between dire avengers and chaos marines the same as not mentioning a completely different unit not involved in the comparison and not even in the same army book.
GargoyleKing wrote: I think the majority of people are mis-understanding how the Warlock Councils work now. You only get powers based on how many warlocks are in the squad. But you get 1 warp charge point for each model on the table each turn. As warlocks die, you lose their warp charge points and once below each of the threshholds, you begin to lose powers. So, with 7 Warlocks you will only have 3 powers, but you will also have 7 warp charge points to spend from the unit.
Nevermind. I missed that. Great catch and super good for the unit.
I too feel like you discounted warlocks a lot.They dont get as many spells which reduces their overall utility by not having as many options, but they are still going to cast roughly the same amount of spells. There is also a lot of synergy with almost all of the spells they do get so no matter what you are going to be happy with warlocks. Plus they are a huge anvil unit, they take tons of punishment, way more than a lot of people estimate they should be able to take. I love my seer council and cant imagine playing eldar without one.
When you leave out the +1 BS, free 6" move, and ability to fire 3 shots in a single turn to justify your claim that a unit is comparable to another one even though it still costs less than the CSM without mentioning that your results leave out that information that's dishonest to me. People who log on here to read that math and don't understand it themselves will see your results and say "oh, I guess people were just exaggerating their power", and they'll wonder why the dire avengers are consistently kicking their butts in the game since you showed them they're no stronger.
I would equate that to the people who say "hey, I did a study and my results show smoking doesn't cause cancer" without mentioning "by the way, I'm paid by the tobacco companies and I may have gone out of my way to find ways to run the tests that supported what my boss wanted to hear." Math is too often manipulated by people to support their claims. You can pretend those bonuses aren't there all you want, but that's what people will see in the game and a lot of that is the source of why people are saying they're OP, so don't "disprove" it by leaving out those numbers.
The warlock council isn't rated highly because it's actually been nerfed quite a bit. The price is the same, the melee power is the same, but the amount of powers is drastically lower. Another problem is the loss of Baron. Bararroth can make due as a replacement if expensive for an already expensive unit.
More on the powers though. Before you could effectively guarantee that you would get all 6 warlock powers producing a 2+ 4++ re-rollable unit that was mobile and dangerous against everything. Now with only 3 powers your chances of getting the powers that you need are pretty low. Spending 400+ points without any real guarantee it will be effective is pretty bad.
Now you can of course take advantage of the council formation for 3+ casting which I agree can be powerful, but their inability to cast the same power multiple times does reduce their effectiveness. A farseer with stones and re-roll can effectively cast the new eldritch storm, but it still requires quite a few dice, an opponent that doesn't have enough dice to stop you, and well lets face it forgetting that you have enough guns to do this easier. I would stick with the blessings and maledictions with my council.
The 'problem' with the aspects, Wraiths and other formation components is the massive 'tax' needed to get them.
Each buffed formation needs a full warhost, which people didn't bother with before. A DA-based army had no Guardians. Now, you need to have 3 units or either Windrider, Defender or Storm, a Vyper and a Farseer. That eats a lot of points. Why ever used Vypers? Now you're stuck with them if you want to use formations.
So, formation bonuses are nice (sometimes too nice), but there's a huge price. You have to build around a Guardian core.
lessthanjeff wrote: When you leave out the +1 BS, free 6" move, and ability to fire 3 shots in a single turn to justify your claim that a unit is comparable to another one even though it still costs less than the CSM without mentioning that your results leave out that information that's dishonest to me. People who log on here to read that math and don't understand it themselves will see your results and say "oh, I guess people were just exaggerating their power", and they'll wonder why the dire avengers are consistently kicking their butts in the game since you showed them they're no stronger.
I would equate that to the people who say "hey, I did a study and my results show smoking doesn't cause cancer" without mentioning "by the way, I'm paid by the tobacco companies and I may have gone out of my way to find ways to run the tests that supported what my boss wanted to hear." Math is too often manipulated by people to support their claims. You can pretend those bonuses aren't there all you want, but that's what people will see in the game and a lot of that is the source of why people are saying they're OP, so don't "disprove" it by leaving out those numbers.
Your math is disingenuous though. You've been effectively comparing 195 points of Dire Avengers (the minimum points cost for the "Avenger Shrine" formation to receive those benefits) to 140 points of CSM. Those extra 55 points are missing and represent at least 2 CSMs and a heavy bolter which greatly changes the math involved. You are making a faulty assumption that any unit of Dire Avengers can receive those bonuses and than comparing equal size units while ignoring the actual points cost of the Avenger Shrine.
What I want to know is why my Wyches couldn't have been on equal terms with Banshee's.
That is a tougher question...
Orock wrote: Dakka predators are not realistic answers as nobody but list tailors would take them
Really? A fairly common appearance with my Dark Angels...
kloma wrote: couple of things I noted as nasty as feck
Me too - I am looking at the Hemlock seriously.
Gets to pretty much anywhere on the table it needs when it comes on, Mindshock Pods go off, reducing your main target by -2 Ld.
You've taken Telepathy - maybe you get Terrify, for another -1 Ld. Maybe you don't, just the icing on the cake.
Then your Psychic Shriek goes off.
That will put a serious dent in a lot of nasty models. If you get certain other models in the same area, you can make it even worse, but the Hemlock does a nice job just on its own...
About the mighty guaranteed 6" run - you are (hopefully) aware that those models lose the Objective Secured-bonus from the CAD. All the gak of the past weeks included Obj.Sec.-jetbikes and what have you. But here many people forget you have to buy yourself an advantage of the expense of a disadvantage somewhere else. Like I said somewhere else, some people tend to just compile a load of what they heard as if the Eldar player had all simultaneously. That being said, surely is the 6" run good. But it buffs footdar and that type of army is not (yet) considered op. When do you whiners ever played a Guardian heavy infantry army?
Skinnereal wrote: The 'problem' with the aspects, Wraiths and other formation components is the massive 'tax' needed to get them. Each buffed formation needs a full warhost, which people didn't bother with before. A DA-based army had no Guardians. Now, you need to have 3 units or either Windrider, Defender or Storm, a Vyper and a Farseer. That eats a lot of points. Why ever used Vypers? Now you're stuck with them if you want to use formations.
So, formation bonuses are nice (sometimes too nice), but there's a huge price. You have to build around a Guardian core.
Aren't the warhost formation components fieldable as formations (detachments) all by themselves? So I could take a CAD and a wraithhost, and the wraithhost would get battle focus, just not guaranteed 6" battle focus from the warhost. No Guardians required.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Suite wrote: About the mighty guaranteed 6" run - you are (hopefully) aware that those models lose the Objective Secured-bonus from the CAD. All the gak of the past weeks included Obj.Sec.-jetbikes and what have you. But here many people forget you have to buy yourself an advantage of the expense of a disadvantage somewhere else. Like I said somewhere else, some people tend to just compile a load of what they heard as if the Eldar player had all simultaneously. That being said, surely is the 6" run good. But it buffs footdar and that type of army is not (yet) considered op. When do you whiners ever played a Guardian heavy infantry army?
So take CAD scatbikes as your objsec core, and aspect shrine your aspect warriors. You lose guaranteed 6", but you still have bs 5 warp spiders/dark reapers, for instance. Seems pretty potent.
If I want 2 or 4 Aspect units, or any number not divisible by 3, they don't get those bonuses.
If I don't want to spam either Bikes or 9ppm GEQs, they don't get those bonuses.
If I want to bring the Wraithguard unit my fiance got me for my birthday, without picking up 2 more units *and* a WraithKnight, my DAs don't get those bonuses.
If I want to field the Crimson Hunter she bought me the day we got the ring sized, and I don't want to buy or field two more, I need the CAD.
The Warhost is probably the strongest way to run Eldar, sure. But its not the only way. A lot of lists can't be done with Warhost formations. And DAs are still Troops in the CAD.
Saying that those numbers are bunk because I didn't take them in an Aspect formation *and* I didn't take another formation that requires a half dozen other units seems a bit nuts.
Isn't that like saying an SM Commander is always super fast and has lots of dakka because (1) hes always Smashbane, and (2) he's always taken with lots of GravBikes? Sure, a Captain with a Power Lance isn't going to be seen often, but he certainly isn't guaranteeing you can kill a DreadKnight.
Bharring wrote: If I want 2 or 4 Aspect units, or any number not divisible by 3, they don't get those bonuses.
If I don't want to spam either Bikes or 9ppm GEQs, they don't get those bonuses.
If I want to bring the Wraithguard unit my fiance got me for my birthday, without picking up 2 more units *and* a WraithKnight, my DAs don't get those bonuses.
If I want to field the Crimson Hunter she bought me the day we got the ring sized, and I don't want to buy or field two more, I need the CAD.
The Warhost is probably the strongest way to run Eldar, sure. But its not the only way. A lot of lists can't be done with Warhost formations. And DAs are still Troops in the CAD.
Saying that those numbers are bunk because I didn't take them in an Aspect formation *and* I didn't take another formation that requires a half dozen other units seems a bit nuts.
Yeah, the various formations are somewhat restrictive, but remember you can add on other detachments, including CADs (unless that's against your tournament's rules or whatever). In a normal sized list, I really think you have no excuse to get at least one of the Craftworld 6" run Detachment things. They all contain good units that you'd probably include anyway, and the benefits are good. I'd agree that the Wraith and Crimson Hunter ones are the most restrictive, but there's no reason why you can't take another CAD with a spiritseer, wraithguard unit or two (or alternatively bare bones rangers/DAs) and then a Crimson Hunter.
Isn't "I don't want to spam Jetbikes, or 30+ Guardians" a valid "excuse" not to use the Warhost formations? Especially if I clearly want DAs to fill their role?
Wraithguard are no longer troops even with a Spiritseer.
And 2+ Ranger/Guardian units on top of already taking 30+ Guardians is pretty insane.
If I'm doing an Aspect CAD, DAs are probably the troops. And I might field up to 4 of them, but you'd need 5 to do CAD + DA shrine. And they still wouldn't get the 6" run unless I included 30+ Guardians too.
I'd agree that the most competative lists will probably use the Warhost, but not all Eldar lists are built that way.
(Think about the points of doing Warhost, DA shrine, +CAD. with reasonable upgrades, you're looking at 1000 points just for the manditories.)
Skinnereal wrote: The 'problem' with the aspects, Wraiths and other formation components is the massive 'tax' needed to get them.
Each buffed formation needs a full warhost, which people didn't bother with before. A DA-based army had no Guardians. Now, you need to have 3 units or either Windrider, Defender or Storm, a Vyper and a Farseer. That eats a lot of points. Why ever used Vypers? Now you're stuck with them if you want to use formations.
So, formation bonuses are nice (sometimes too nice), but there's a huge price. You have to build around a Guardian core.
Aren't the warhost formation components fieldable as formations (detachments) all by themselves? So I could take a CAD and a wraithhost, and the wraithhost would get battle focus, just not guaranteed 6" battle focus from the warhost. No Guardians required.
[The following has been pointed out to be incorrect]
Nope, to get the 0-12 formations or 0-3 HQ options, you have to take 1-3 of the Guardian hosts.
If you leave out the Guardian part, you're going Unbound, and don't get the bonuses.
See the photo on the rumours thread for info.
The example in the codex says you could take:
a Guardian pack to unlock
some Warlocks and
a pack of 3 Aspects,
and also take a normal
1x HQ &
2xTroops &
1x Crimson Hunter
(or something along those lines)
The top bit gets the 6" run, and the Warlocks and Aspects get their own bonuses. The warlord can be chosen from either the top or bottom, to make that the primary detachment.
Bharring wrote: Isn't "I don't want to spam Jetbikes, or 30+ Guardians" a valid "excuse" not to use the Warhost formations? Especially if I clearly want DAs to fill their role?
(Think about the points of doing Warhost, DA shrine, +CAD. with reasonable upgrades, you're looking at 1000 points just for the manditories.)
I wouldn't call 9 jet bikes "spam". I'd actually call it the cheapest troops you can get.
I also would not call anything in the DA shrine "Manditories". If you don't want DA, don't take them, the shrine isn't unlocking anything else, and isn't giving any army wide bonus.
CAD:
Warlock
2x3 bikes
137 points.
That's 485 points for bare bones detachments.
IMO, the windrider host is too cheap. You get a good number of very useful units, and the setup cost is too low, allowing a lot of silly combos.
A basic CAD is 137 points, and gives you 2 objective secure bike units. That's hardly much of a tax to unlock every other combo you want.
Likewise, 358 for a farseer (you already want one), and 3 units of bikes with shred, and a vyper with shred is also very good.
You want to know how I know the new eldar are broken?
The formation bonuses and special rules are so good, that playing unbound eldar is actually weaker than using the formation.
Just type out all the free special stuff the detachments and formations get, and try and say it's a balanced book.
@Skinnereal: Your explanation of the availability of Eldar formations outside of taking a Craftworld Warhost is incorrect. Any formation that has its own Codex Entry can be taken by any army at any time.
These are the 'formations' [EDIT #2: These are NOT actually formations, just unit options available to a Craftworld Warhost.] that are solely contingent on first taking a Craftworld Warhost: Rangers (Outcasts), Engines of Vaul, Wraith Constructs, Heroes of the Craftworlds and Living Legends. The remaining formations: Seer Council, Aspect Host, Dire Avenger Shrine, Wraith Host, and Crimson Death can be taken on their own.
EDIT: @Krooshlord--your proposed CaD + Wraith Host is legal, and will function as you described (Battle Focus & 18" Guided Wraithsight).
Skinnereal wrote: The 'problem' with the aspects, Wraiths and other formation components is the massive 'tax' needed to get them.
Each buffed formation needs a full warhost, which people didn't bother with before. A DA-based army had no Guardians. Now, you need to have 3 units or either Windrider, Defender or Storm, a Vyper and a Farseer. That eats a lot of points. Why ever used Vypers? Now you're stuck with them if you want to use formations.
So, formation bonuses are nice (sometimes too nice), but there's a huge price. You have to build around a Guardian core.
Aren't the warhost formation components fieldable as formations (detachments) all by themselves? So I could take a CAD and a wraithhost, and the wraithhost would get battle focus, just not guaranteed 6" battle focus from the warhost. No Guardians required.
Nope, to get the 0-12 formations or 0-3 HQ options, you have to take 1-3 of the Guardian hosts.
If you leave out the Guardian part, you're going Unbound, and don't get the bonuses.
See the photo on the rumours thread for info.
The example in the codex says you could take:
a Guardian pack to unlock
some Warlocks and
a pack of 3 Aspects,
and also take a normal
1x HQ &
2xTroops &
1x Crimson Hunter
(or something along those lines)
The top bit gets the 6" run, and the Warlocks and Aspects get their own bonuses. The warlord can be chosen from either the top or bottom, to make that the primary detachment.
You are incorrect. You are able to take ANY of the formations as part of a battle forged list without having to take the 1-3 guardian war hosts (you just won't get the craft world war host benefits.
From the codex:
"Note that you can also include any of the formations presented in this section as part of a Battle-forged army."
aka wraith host can be taken WITHOUT a guardian war host, would still get the wraith host formation bonuses, but would not get the craft world war host benefits.
When comparing DAs to CSMs, being able to not take DAs isn't helpful..
The point I'm trying to make is that taking DAs in a CAD will happen, for a variety of reasons. Probably not in a tournament, but when comparing DAs to CSMs, comparing them as members of a CAD (or Unbound) isn't inherently invalid. Its the 'stock' way to take them.
(I actually don't own any Jetbikes aside from Shining Spears, and don't have 30 Guardian Defenders).
(Also, I don't need -or want - to min/max my lists. Many players don't. The "best" way isn't the only way.)
DCannon4Life wrote: @Skinnereal: Your explanation of the availability of Eldar formations outside of taking a Craftworld Warhost is incorrect. Any formation that has its own Codex Entry can be taken by any army at any time.
Seems so. Ta for the update.
So, the Guardian thing is to get the 6" run.
I now see where the calls of 'broken' are coming from...
DCannon4Life wrote: @Skinnereal: Your explanation of the availability of Eldar formations outside of taking a Craftworld Warhost is incorrect. Any formation that has its own Codex Entry can be taken by any army at any time.
Seems so. Ta for the update.
So, the Guardian thing is to get the 6" run.
so the main benefit of the warhost is, IMO, 6" battle-focus str D weapons. I dub it:
Your math is disingenuous though. You've been effectively comparing 195 points of Dire Avengers (the minimum points cost for the "Avenger Shrine" formation to receive those benefits) to 140 points of CSM. Those extra 55 points are missing and represent at least 2 CSMs and a heavy bolter which greatly changes the math involved. You are making a faulty assumption that any unit of Dire Avengers can receive those bonuses and than comparing equal size units while ignoring the actual points cost of the Avenger Shrine.
I'm not comparing the 195 points of DA because I'm not crunching the numbers from all 15 in the formation. I'm taking a lesser cost of DA and comparing them to a greater cost of CSM where the points cost is what the game is balanced on. Otherwise, you could say it's not fair to compare to a single unit of CSM because you need another troop choice and an HQ to make a CAD out of them. Since the other units are not being fielded or contributing to the computations, they're irrelevant to the situation.
Your math is disingenuous though. You've been effectively comparing 195 points of Dire Avengers (the minimum points cost for the "Avenger Shrine" formation to receive those benefits) to 140 points of CSM. Those extra 55 points are missing and represent at least 2 CSMs and a heavy bolter which greatly changes the math involved. You are making a faulty assumption that any unit of Dire Avengers can receive those bonuses and than comparing equal size units while ignoring the actual points cost of the Avenger Shrine.
I'm not comparing the 195 points of DA because I'm not crunching the numbers from all 15 in the formation. I'm taking a lesser cost of DA and comparing them to a greater cost of CSM where the points cost is what the game is balanced on. Otherwise, you could say it's not fair to compare to a single unit of CSM because you need another troop choice and an HQ to make a CAD out of them. Since the other units are not being fielded or contributing to the computations, they're irrelevant to the situation.
Except its very relevant that you are taking a unit of Avengers that costs 130 points and treating them with the rules that have a minimum cost of 195 points. If you want to do a roughly equal comparison, you can't assume in 55 points of extra rules. You'd have to run the math at the closest possible match up (15 Avengers vs ~13 Chaos Marines) to truly illustrate the difference between the two. The way you've presented your math is very disingenuous without explicitly listing your assumptions that give the 10 Avengers an extra 55 points of buff.
Your math is disingenuous though. You've been effectively comparing 195 points of Dire Avengers (the minimum points cost for the "Avenger Shrine" formation to receive those benefits) to 140 points of CSM. Those extra 55 points are missing and represent at least 2 CSMs and a heavy bolter which greatly changes the math involved. You are making a faulty assumption that any unit of Dire Avengers can receive those bonuses and than comparing equal size units while ignoring the actual points cost of the Avenger Shrine.
I'm not comparing the 195 points of DA because I'm not crunching the numbers from all 15 in the formation. I'm taking a lesser cost of DA and comparing them to a greater cost of CSM where the points cost is what the game is balanced on. Otherwise, you could say it's not fair to compare to a single unit of CSM because you need another troop choice and an HQ to make a CAD out of them. Since the other units are not being fielded or contributing to the computations, they're irrelevant to the situation.
Except its very relevant that you are taking a unit of Avengers that costs 130 points and treating them with the rules that have a minimum cost of 195 points. If you want to do a roughly equal comparison, you can't assume in 55 points of extra rules. You'd have to run the math at the closest possible match up (15 Avengers vs ~13 Chaos Marines) to truly illustrate the difference between the two. The way you've presented your math is very disingenuous without explicitly listing your assumptions that give the 10 Avengers an extra 55 points of buff.
You are wrong. again. If anyone is going to use dire avengers, they will ALWAYS take them in a formation (or almost always). Therefore, on the battlefield, they will be 130 points with all those bonuses.
Except its very relevant that you are taking a unit of Avengers that costs 130 points and treating them with the rules that have a minimum cost of 195 points. If you want to do a roughly equal comparison, you can't assume in 55 points of extra rules. You'd have to run the math at the closest possible match up (15 Avengers vs ~13 Chaos Marines) to truly illustrate the difference between the two. The way you've presented your math is very disingenuous without explicitly listing your assumptions that give the 10 Avengers an extra 55 points of buff.
I'm guessing you and math don't get along too well. We can run the numbers at 15 dire avengers vs 15 CSM just as easily and the CSM still cost more. It actually goes more in favor of the Dire Avengers if you take them both to the 15 squad cost. You're saying that it was somehow dishonest to take 130 points out of a formation for comparison against 140 points out of a CAD, but like I said, the same argument would apply to not being able to take a single unit of CSM too.
Since you're interested though, here's the math for you. The 15 Dire Avengers (195 points) kills 10.5 of the CSM in the first round of shooting. The 15 CSM (205 points) kill 3.3 Dire Avengers in their first round of shooting. I ran both numbers as if they were at full strength firing into the enemy, not by picking one arbitrarily to get to shoot first and then reducing the opponents' shots. So do go on about how I was somehow dishonest and fudging numbers in my favor or leaving out important information. What you requested for the comparison goes far far worse in the Eldar's favor with them still costing less. Anything else you'd like me to run?
Goldphish wrote: The warlock council isn't rated highly because it's actually been nerfed quite a bit. The price is the same, the melee power is the same, but the amount of powers is drastically lower. Another problem is the loss of Baron. Bararroth can make due as a replacement if expensive for an already expensive unit.
More on the powers though. Before you could effectively guarantee that you would get all 6 warlock powers producing a 2+ 4++ re-rollable unit that was mobile and dangerous against everything. Now with only 3 powers your chances of getting the powers that you need are pretty low. Spending 400+ points without any real guarantee it will be effective is pretty bad.
Now you can of course take advantage of the council formation for 3+ casting which I agree can be powerful, but their inability to cast the same power multiple times does reduce their effectiveness. A farseer with stones and re-roll can effectively cast the new eldritch storm, but it still requires quite a few dice, an opponent that doesn't have enough dice to stop you, and well lets face it forgetting that you have enough guns to do this easier. I would stick with the blessings and maledictions with my council.
Warlock unit got a buff in combat with the change to singing spears being a 1 handed weapon now.
The baron was only ever a crutch for bad generaling, i never once even contemplated watering down my eldar with dark eldar scum. Having the ability to throw 4 dice at what was a 4 cost spell and likely be able to cast it is quite efficient. And it was rare that you ever got to cast the same spell more than once anyway. How often do you take both farseers as the same discipline? (the answer is "never", unless you are bad)
Same points cost as before:
Pros:
They are buffed in that you can now lose some warlocks and not lose spells.
They are buffed in combat when holding spears they are now 1 handed and get +1 attack from their previous codex.
The unit can cast on 3+'s instead of 4+'s and retains the same number of warp charges
Each farseer can reroll any dice once per turn basically guaranteeing the necessary spell to go off.
Cons:
Number of spells reduced on warlocks - this reduces utility as well as reducing the reliability of getting a specific spell (protect)
...
Your math is disingenuous though. You've been effectively comparing 195 points of Dire Avengers (the minimum points cost for the "Avenger Shrine" formation to receive those benefits) to 140 points of CSM. Those extra 55 points are missing and represent at least 2 CSMs and a heavy bolter which greatly changes the math involved. You are making a faulty assumption that any unit of Dire Avengers can receive those bonuses and than comparing equal size units while ignoring the actual points cost of the Avenger Shrine.
I'm not comparing the 195 points of DA because I'm not crunching the numbers from all 15 in the formation. I'm taking a lesser cost of DA and comparing them to a greater cost of CSM where the points cost is what the game is balanced on. Otherwise, you could say it's not fair to compare to a single unit of CSM because you need another troop choice and an HQ to make a CAD out of them. Since the other units are not being fielded or contributing to the computations, they're irrelevant to the situation.
Except its very relevant that you are taking a unit of Avengers that costs 130 points and treating them with the rules that have a minimum cost of 195 points. If you want to do a roughly equal comparison, you can't assume in 55 points of extra rules. You'd have to run the math at the closest possible match up (15 Avengers vs ~13 Chaos Marines) to truly illustrate the difference between the two. The way you've presented your math is very disingenuous without explicitly listing your assumptions that give the 10 Avengers an extra 55 points of buff.
You are wrong. again. If anyone is going to use dire avengers, they will ALWAYS take them in a formation (or almost always). Therefore, on the battlefield, they will be 130 points with all those bonuses.
And you missed the point. Again. Be honest about your assumptions. You're advertising 130 points worth of Avengers with 195 points (minimum) of associated rules. It is not something that DAs get stock and plenty of people have pointed out why you might not end up with DAs in the Avenger Shrinw formation.
Except its very relevant that you are taking a unit of Avengers that costs 130 points and treating them with the rules that have a minimum cost of 195 points. If you want to do a roughly equal comparison, you can't assume in 55 points of extra rules. You'd have to run the math at the closest possible match up (15 Avengers vs ~13 Chaos Marines) to truly illustrate the difference between the two. The way you've presented your math is very disingenuous without explicitly listing your assumptions that give the 10 Avengers an extra 55 points of buff.
I'm guessing you and math don't get along too well. We can run the numbers at 15 dire avengers vs 15 CSM just as easily and the CSM still cost more. It actually goes more in favor of the Dire Avengers if you take them both to the 15 squad cost. You're saying that it was somehow dishonest to take 130 points out of a formation for comparison against 140 points out of a CAD, but like I said, the same argument would apply to not being able to take a single unit of CSM too.
Since you're interested though, here's the math for you. The 15 Dire Avengers (195 points) kills 10.5 of the CSM in the first round of shooting. The 15 CSM (205 points) kill 3.3 Dire Avengers in their first round of shooting. I ran both numbers as if they were at full strength firing into the enemy, not by picking one arbitrarily to get to shoot first and then reducing the opponents' shots. So do go on about how I was somehow dishonest and fudging numbers in my favor or leaving out important information. What you requested for the comparison goes far far worse in the Eldar's favor with them still costing less. Anything else you'd like me to run?
Math and I get along fine. I agree that DAs in the Shrine formation are amazing. My point was that you hid those assumptions earlier while trying to disparage others who framed their variables differently from your own. Obviously the extra 15 shots at a higher BS make a huge difference. But people will still field stock DAs outside of the formation for a variety of reasons. It is not intellectually dishonest to evaluate both possibilities since the key variables (BS and rate of fire) change dramatically between the two. It is deceitful to hide your own assumptions while criticizing others.
Math and I get along fine. I agree that DAs in the Shrine formation are amazing. My point was that you hid those assumptions earlier while trying to disparage others who framed their variables differently from your own. Obviously the extra 15 shots at a higher BS make a huge difference. But people will still field stock DAs outside of the formation for a variety of reasons. It is not intellectually dishonest to evaluate both possibilities since the key variables (BS and rate of fire) change dramatically between the two. It is deceitful to hide your own assumptions while criticizing others.
I hid nothing in any of my calculations. I clearly showed how many I counted, what point cost I counted them at, and what rules I was counting them with. Your claim is predicated on me manipulating data to my advantage, but I was forthcoming with my calculations and showed exactly what I was doing along the way. You may disagree with how I partitioned out the units to pick a fairly standard unit size of 10 Dire Avengers against 10 CSM (giving a generous point advantage to the CSM), but your argument is illogical when you say "you can't just consider one part of the formation" even though you're saying it's fine to consider just one part of the CAD for chaos. Why aren't you insisting we buy an HQ and another troop choice to finish the detachment? What exactly is the difference between those two cases in your mind? I question your math and logic because you also wanted to balance out 130 points of Eldar models with 176 points of Chaos models, so tell me again about dishonesty and fudging numbers.
What is dishonest is saying "I ran the numbers, the Dire Avengers come out equivalent to the CSM" without saying he wasn't using all those rules to counter my argument even though I clearly cited them in my comparison that he was responding to. This wasn't a case of saying "let's compare other settings", this was him saying "your claim is inaccurate and here's the data that disproves it".
Umm, you asked me to run numbers then accused me of being dishonest when I provided my results. With no mention of using Formation bonuses. Heck, if you look at the original writeup, I even comment on the DAs having ObSec.
You have a very... peculiar... view of how events happened.
chadbrochill17 wrote: Warlock unit got a buff in combat with the change to singing spears being a 1 handed weapon now.
They were 1 handed in the last codex, but it was expensive to run the entire unit with them.
The baron was only ever a crutch for bad generaling, i never once even contemplated watering down my eldar with dark eldar scum.
Baron wasn't there as a crutch for bads. The 2++ was nice, but his sold purpose in the unit was Hit and Run. There was no other way of getting Hit and Run cheaply and the unit desperately needs it.
Having the ability to throw 4 dice at what was a 4 cost spell and likely be able to cast it is quite efficient. And it was rare that you ever got to cast the same spell more than once anyway. How often do you take both farseers as the same discipline? (the answer is "never", unless you are bad)
Both farseers would go until they got fortune so if you were unlucky I guess that means you were bad?
Same points cost as before:
Pros:
They are buffed in that you can now lose some warlocks and not lose spells.
They are buffed in combat when holding spears they are now 1 handed and get +1 attack from their previous codex.
The unit can cast on 3+'s instead of 4+'s and retains the same number of warp charges
Each farseer can reroll any dice once per turn basically guaranteeing the necessary spell to go off.
Cons:
Number of spells reduced on warlocks - this reduces utility as well as reducing the reliability of getting a specific spell (protect)...
You cannot lose warlocks because you need them for their attacks in combat. Every warlock you drop is 3 lost attacks, and with no power weapons you will need every attack you can get.
As previously said they already had 1h spears, but they were expensive.
Harnessing on a 3+ is very good. No doubt, but you wont keep the same number of charges if you're dropping locks.
You get one re-roll on your key spell; Fortune, and that's if you're lucky enough to get it in 6 tries, successfully cast it with a re-roll, and your opponent doesn't stop it. It's exactly like invisibility in a draigostar using Tigurius.
Lastly your con is super important. Not getting Protect hurts the unit; 3+ 4++ isn't super reliable against most things, and if you don't get Fortune you will have a 500 point deathstar dying in the first couple turns. Santic or Runes of Battle work, Protect or Sanctuary are both viable. I think I am leaning towards Santic honestly. The powers there are more important against other deathstars and with the mobility of the bikes all the powers can be worth while.
Adding on that point you can easily take more than 2 farseers now so getting fortune should be more consistent.
To the two that arguing which is better out of Dire Avengers or CSM, why bother? Neither unit will get used in a competitive environment. CSM are not taken now in any form and I don't think that will change till they get a new book. Dire Avengers were only ever taken to unlock serpents cheaply. Why would I bother with dire avengers when I can get guardians cheaper with heavy weapons or just go with the better option in the aspect host. Warp spiders are seriously like the best unit in the book. They are above and beyond more mobile that just about any unit out there, deal tremendous damage to just about everything, can re-actively avoid return fire out side of your turn, and have a 3+ save when they can't. I get all that for an extra 6 points on top of a dire avenger. I really think any list I write at this point will start with a full warp spider aspect host.
Bharring wrote: Because many people - myself included - will never use the Warhost. Its broken as gak.
The numbers for CSM vs DA were run in another thread.
Assuming no other models, objectives, board edges, or anything else, on a wide-open board, assuming a 5+ cover save for CSM (something is likely to go their way, and they really control the engagement, as DAs can't battle focus out of full range), it takes 10 rounds for 10 DAs to kill 10 CSM, and they have 1.4 DAs left.
That means equal numbers of DAs cannot push equal numbers of CSM within the span of the game, even if everything except the 5+ cover goes their way. This is with CSM never double tapping.
If the DAs ever need to close in, CSM win easily. If CSM get within 12", they destroy DAs. If they get to charge DAs, they destroy them harder. If DAs ever either don't move into 18", or don't BF back out, CSM win.
So the CSM decide where they stand. They can move almost anywhere that still gives them a 5+. If they can get within 12", or force the DAs to BF for them, CSM win.
So if there is an objective at all, CSM win. If not, its a draw.
And this is naked CSM. 10v10. 130pts to 130pts.
Right after I said the Dire Avengers in the formation easily out damage the CSM, this was your response. No mention of Objective Secured. You just conclude that CSM either win or draw and make claims that "DAs cannot push equal numbers of CSM within the span of the game" even though you're going to see the aspect warriors from the formations far more than you'll see them from without.
To the two that arguing which is better out of Dire Avengers or CSM, why bother? Neither unit will get used in a competitive environment. CSM are not taken now in any form and I don't think that will change till they get a new book. Dire Avengers were only ever taken to unlock serpents cheaply. Why would I bother with dire avengers when I can get guardians cheaper with heavy weapons or just go with the better option in the aspect host. Warp spiders are seriously like the best unit in the book. They are above and beyond more mobile that just about any unit out there, deal tremendous damage to just about everything, can re-actively avoid return fire out side of your turn, and have a 3+ save when they can't. I get all that for an extra 6 points on top of a dire avenger. I really think any list I write at this point will start with a full warp spider aspect host.
We've been talking about dire avengers and csm because when I mentioned the vast differences between a 22 point fire dragon and a 26 point blaster trueborn (oh wait, Panzer wants me to balance the 22 point fire dragon against 330 points of dark eldar, because that makes sense...) they said the troops were a more relevant comparison between armies. I also mentioned how Eldar get +1 BS, WS, W, I, A and an amazing rule added to the unit (like precision deepstrike or fearless) for a mere 10 points when other armies pay 10 points for just +1 A on the captain and sometimes also +1 LD. I'd be happy to crunch numbers for more comparisons between units like Warp Spiders and Wraith Guard. It's hard to find other units to compare them to directly though. My argument is just that the Eldar are in general paying less for more than their peers. They asked why people are considering them OP and I've provided data for several direct comparisons with many more available to choose from.
You are incorrect. You are able to take ANY of the formations as part of a battle forged list without having to take the 1-3 guardian war hosts (you just won't get the craft world war host benefits.
From the codex:
"Note that you can also include any of the formations presented in this section as part of a Battle-forged army."
aka wraith host can be taken WITHOUT a guardian war host, would still get the wraith host formation bonuses, but would not get the craft world war host benefits.
If the wraith host is taken with the guardian war host, would it then have both bonuses/benefits?
Math and I get along fine. I agree that DAs in the Shrine formation are amazing. My point was that you hid those assumptions earlier while trying to disparage others who framed their variables differently from your own. Obviously the extra 15 shots at a higher BS make a huge difference. But people will still field stock DAs outside of the formation for a variety of reasons. It is not intellectually dishonest to evaluate both possibilities since the key variables (BS and rate of fire) change dramatically between the two. It is deceitful to hide your own assumptions while criticizing others.
I hid nothing in any of my calculations. I clearly showed how many I counted, what point cost I counted them at, and what rules I was counting them with. Your claim is predicated on me manipulating data to my advantage, but I was forthcoming with my calculations and showed exactly what I was doing along the way. You may disagree with how I partitioned out the units to pick a fairly standard unit size of 10 Dire Avengers against 10 CSM (giving a generous point advantage to the CSM), but your argument is illogical when you say "you can't just consider one part of the formation" even though you're saying it's fine to consider just one part of the CAD for chaos. Why aren't you insisting we buy an HQ and another troop choice to finish the detachment? What exactly is the difference between those two cases in your mind? I question your math and logic because you also wanted to balance out 130 points of Eldar models with 176 points of Chaos models, so tell me again about dishonesty and fudging numbers.
What is dishonest is saying "I ran the numbers, the Dire Avengers come out equivalent to the CSM" without saying he wasn't using all those rules to counter my argument even though I clearly cited them in my comparison that he was responding to. This wasn't a case of saying "let's compare other settings", this was him saying "your claim is inaccurate and here's the data that disproves it".
I never asked you to balance disproportionate numbers. I said you should run the comparison at equal points of 195 of DA and 195 of CSM. I don't even know where you came up with 176.
The detachment the CSM are in is irrelevant. They are not gaining any special rules from it. In a CAD, allied detachment, Demonkin detachment or Unbound, the damage output is the same.
The detachment is relevant for the DA. Put them in the context of the Avenger Shrine, they gain +1 BS and an extra shot for one turn of the game. The damage spikes upwards significantly compared to the same unit in any other detachment. The minimum point cost of an Avenger Shrine is 195. That is the baseline for comparison because at 195 points, your CSM opponent can make use of all his squads options-including the ability to buy a heavy weapon. By artificially lowering the points but still assuming the same formation benefits, you end up overestimating the DA's power. Dire Avengers in the Avenger Shrine formation are exceptionally good. The couple of extra bodies and the heavy bolter won't significantly help the CSM in a straight up math comparison. But it certainly helps once you put it in the context of a game where the additional range of the heavy bolter and the exposed nature of 3 small DA squads makes it a much more even match up.
I still contend your entire premise of "you must assume every DA unit is from an avenger shrine" is faulty. The formation itself is actually fairly limiting to army construction. You make a significant points investment in the Avengers themselves (just over 10% of a standard 1850 points value) before you add any additional squad members or transports. Even if you just invest in 15 DAs and 3 serpents, you've spent ~35% to 40% of your points on 18 models, 15 of which are not resilient.
If the wraith host is taken with the guardian war host, would it then have both bonuses/benefits?
Yes. In the description of the Craftworld Warhost it states that the units benefit from both. So...guaranteed 6" Battle Focus for ALL of your Wraith, as well as everyone else!
Leaasthan,
I had been very clear in this thread that the numbers I was working with were without the Formations. You made your always-formations claim, and I disagreed with it. I then referenced the math for the matchup you asked for having been done in another thread.
So I'm not getting where it was dishonest for me to not use bonuses I said I wouldn't use. I just don't get that.
To the two that arguing which is better out of Dire Avengers or CSM, why bother? Neither unit will get used in a competitive environment. CSM are not taken now in any form and I don't think that will change till they get a new book. Dire Avengers were only ever taken to unlock serpents cheaply. Why would I bother with dire avengers when I can get guardians cheaper with heavy weapons or just go with the better option in the aspect host. Warp spiders are seriously like the best unit in the book. They are above and beyond more mobile that just about any unit out there, deal tremendous damage to just about everything, can re-actively avoid return fire out side of your turn, and have a 3+ save when they can't. I get all that for an extra 6 points on top of a dire avenger. I really think any list I write at this point will start with a full warp spider aspect host.
Two points.
If you want a jet council death star, add an autarch with a banshee mask to your opponent cannot overwatch. Combine invisibility with banshee mask and wall of death issues go away.
2nd, Dive Avengers do has a useful role. The 3 shots per models once a game puts them ahead of warp spiders against T6 2+ opponents and T8 3+ opponents.
If you're playing other eldar, you can use dire avengers to alpha strike wraith knights.
Warp Spiders flickering away is awesome, but does cost them their mobility next turn, and they won't always be able to get out of range. You can go for out of sight, but at some point you'll hit critical mass where their isn't enough space/terrain for everything to hide.
I would take both warp spiders in an aspect host, and also take a DA shrine.
Don't guardian jetbikes pretty much play out like warpspiders though?
Jet bikes pay 13.5 points per S6 blade storm shot, warp spiders pay 11.4 points.
Both move about the same, both have 3+ armor.
Jetbikes get T4, and take the free move in the assault phase, spiders are T3 and take the free move when shot at, and lose their next turn jumping.
The only downside I see to spiders is then when firing on high init opponents, such as eldar, you only wound on a 3+, instead of 2+. That, and when firing on 5+ save or worse opponents, the AP5 of the shuriken cannon matters.
In competitive lists, seems to me Windriders, and with a 6" run automatically, Guardians, will handle what you'd want to take Dire Avengers for. Sure, with the Shrine, DAs can really dish out the hate. Undercosted at 13ppm. But most of the time, won't Guardians and Wind riders do more, for less? And you'll probably want to be taking them anyways?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Goldphish,
My point wasn't that DAs are worse than CSM. My point was that, in a "reasonable" (formationless, for starters) list, DAs compared reasonably to CSMs.
The underlying point is that I think reasoalnable Eldar lists can still be made.
With the last Dex I had to stop using 2 Serpents to transport my 10man DAs, because it broke the game when facing a local 'reasonable' list. I basically converted to a Swordwind CAD (fun fact - I'm Uthwe...), to make games more reasonable. But even that did quite well for me.
So I'm hoping Swordwind isn't broken. It may be. That's why I'm so curious about CAD-based DAs being brutal - I want to ensure I'm not just bashing my opponents' faces in.
I had a similar thread going earlier before the codex dropped about how to play Eldar within a friendly/casual context. I still don't have the codex in hand (issues with shipping) but it's good to see that my initial impression of the book was correct. It also helps to know that I'm not the only Eldar player who feels torn over the new book.
On the one hand, the Aspect Warriors got some excellent, and in my opinion needed, buffs. The Warhost gives great detachment benefits and is also very lore-friendly in terms of building an Eldar army. Virtually every unit in the book is now viable. Some units are still more optimal picks, but every unit can find its own place in an Eldar army.
On the other hand, we now have some absurdly broken units (jetbikes, Wraithknights, Wraithguard with D-weapons) that everyone focuses on because nothing else can stand up to them. It doesn't help that players now associate Eldar with these units because they're the units that are very viable at a competitive level and will win tournaments.
In the end, it's all about the group dynamics each player utilizes. If you don't use the broken units, Eldar can still be viable at every level and make for some interesting and fun games, both for you and for your opponent.
Goldphish wrote: To the two that arguing which is better out of Dire Avengers or CSM, why bother? Neither unit will get used in a competitive environment.
CSM are not taken now in any form and I don't think that will change till they get a new book.
Dire Avengers were only ever taken to unlock serpents cheaply. Why would I bother with dire avengers when I can get guardians cheaper with heavy weapons or just go with the better option in the aspect host.
Warp spiders are seriously like the best unit in the book. They are above and beyond more mobile that just about any unit out there, deal tremendous damage to just about everything, can re-actively avoid return fire out side of your turn, and have a 3+ save when they can't. I get all that for an extra 6 points on top of a dire avenger. I really think any list I write at this point will start with a full warp spider aspect host.
CSM are OK as cheap T4 Sv3+ army filler.
Those Guardian Defender and Jetbike Hosts are pretty attractive.
Dark Eldar - The two codices are just to similar. Besides deep striking shenanigans the over lap on unit abilities is awful. Any specific task you can think of can be done by an eldar unit just as well or better. Assault transports seem to be the only thing eldar will value in this partnership.
Harlequins - These formations require less baggage than dark eldar, and you get very dangerous bikes/characters. The troops are not bad either when properly kitted. As good as the harlequins are though, I don't see a great need for this partnership either since eldar now have good to great melee threats. Harlequin's can keep up with the faster units in the eldar codex better though.
Ally question here - I'd disagree with this assessment. Eldar benefit a lot more from the real space raider formation from the DE book than they do from the harlequin dex. All those scythe-guard need something to fire out of, and raiders are much cheaper than wave serpents. You're losing out on durability, sure, but if it's a question between Dark Eldar allies and Harlequins, I'd have to go with Dark Eldar. Remember - rending reavers on the charge are still a very viable counter to invisible deathstar units.
That said - I'd like nothing more than to be able to sprinkle a few shadow seers into some key eldar footslogging units, but it's just impossible. The restrictions on the Harli formations mean you basically have to buy two of every harli unit before they let you start getting extra shadow seers to share. I'd love to add some harli's to my eldar, but I just can't figure out how to do it without going unbound.
Yeah, there are certainly some good Eldar/Dark Eldar combos out there, though perhaps more with Dark Eldar being the primary detachment. I've not had chance to look at the two codices together in depth yet though.
What leaps out at me immediately though is the combat potential you can get by combining the two codices, if that's what you want. Sure, Howling Banshees are much better and much faster, but that doesn't stop them being shot to pieces when they get close - something with an open-topped transport could fix. Similarly, any Dark Eldar combat unit would hugely benefit from having a Banshee Mask wearing Autarch in the unit, while the Autarch's +1/-1 to reserve rolls will make it much easier for any DE units held in reserve to come on at the right time - i.e. when they're needed or when they've got enough buffs from Power from Pain.
I never asked you to balance disproportionate numbers. I said you should run the comparison at equal points of 195 of DA and 195 of CSM. I don't even know where you came up with 176.
The detachment the CSM are in is irrelevant. They are not gaining any special rules from it. In a CAD, allied detachment, Demonkin detachment or Unbound, the damage output is the same.
The detachment is relevant for the DA. Put them in the context of the Avenger Shrine, they gain +1 BS and an extra shot for one turn of the game. The damage spikes upwards significantly compared to the same unit in any other detachment. The minimum point cost of an Avenger Shrine is 195. That is the baseline for comparison because at 195 points, your CSM opponent can make use of all his squads options-including the ability to buy a heavy weapon. By artificially lowering the points but still assuming the same formation benefits, you end up overestimating the DA's power. Dire Avengers in the Avenger Shrine formation are exceptionally good. The couple of extra bodies and the heavy bolter won't significantly help the CSM in a straight up math comparison. But it certainly helps once you put it in the context of a game where the additional range of the heavy bolter and the exposed nature of 3 small DA squads makes it a much more even match up.
I still contend your entire premise of "you must assume every DA unit is from an avenger shrine" is faulty. The formation itself is actually fairly limiting to army construction. You make a significant points investment in the Avengers themselves (just over 10% of a standard 1850 points value) before you add any additional squad members or transports. Even if you just invest in 15 DAs and 3 serpents, you've spent ~35% to 40% of your points on 18 models, 15 of which are not resilient.
You said the point cost difference justified the CSM having two more marines and a heavy bolter (140 for the base unit, and then 36 for the extra options you requested to balance which is where 176 came from) without showing how the Dire Avengers get more models if you want to make that comparison. I'm running these comparisons using ratios so it doesn't matter if it's a 15 v 15 matchup since it shows the same proportional damage outputs as a 10 v 10 or a 1 v 1. There's no advantage gained by running the numbers one way over another. For game purposes, I ran my computations to show that within a larger game you should send your squad of 10 dire avengers up one flank to engage the near-equivalent cost of 10 csm because you have an overwhelming advantage in efficiency.
Regarding whether you should compare the entire formation or just a part of the whole, when I want to run numbers against how many necron I can kill in a shooting phase or assault I run them against Decurion bonuses because that's what will actually matter in the game. The fight will take place as one piece of a greater whole, but what matters to me is what can I expect to happen if I shoot one of my squads at the necron warriors or the lychguard or whatever I choose. In-game you want to make informed decisions and that's how the math has to be done, otherwise I would end up with a bunch of pointless data combing too many separate units when I try to see whether my Wave Serpent can knock out the last few warriors from a squad to clear an objective. Your rationale requires I run 4 wave serpents or something against an entire, varied decurion detachment to somehow balance against the entire formation cost when what I'm trying to figure out is how much damage would my one wave serpent deal against the one necron warrior squad so I can make an educated decision about where I move it and what target priorities it should have. The other reason to run comparisons this way is because it dictates the value of a unit so you can decide if you want to include it in your list or not. My comparison shows you should be much happier to include that less expensive force of Dire Avengers than the Chaos player is to include that squad of marines.
You're right that we can't assume EVERY Dire Avenger unit is coming from that same formation, but I believe the majority of the aspect warriors you see are going to come from some combination of those formations. I saw you guys question what would happen if you planned on taking 4 dire avenger squads, but if you're planning on also bringing a unit or two of fire dragons or warp spiders, that just means you take one dire avenger shrine and one aspect host. If you just want the 4 dire avenger squads and no other aspect warriors at all (which seems crazy given how famazing the aspect warriors are), then take a single dire avenger shrine and 1 from some other detachment and you still have 75% of your avengers getting the bonuses so you should probably run the numbers against that majority imo.
I'll reiterate that I think the Eldar codex is awesome and a lot of fun and that I wish every codex was designed the same way where you look at stuff and say "wow, that's so powerful" or "wow, that looks fun". I even have a decent Eldar force myself. The question though is what are they getting compared to other armies, and the answer to that is far more for their points. This codex is overly strong when compared to other armies, fun and interesting though it may be. Other armies are at a significant disadvantage in the game against Eldar because when you're sitting across the table from them you find yourself realizing that every engagement/matchup you try to line up has the numbers in their favor.
Bharring wrote: Leaasthan,
I had been very clear in this thread that the numbers I was working with were without the Formations. You made your always-formations claim, and I disagreed with it. I then referenced the math for the matchup you asked for having been done in another thread.
So I'm not getting where it was dishonest for me to not use bonuses I said I wouldn't use. I just don't get that.
You may think it was very clear to you that the numbers were run without formation bonuses, but I thought it was very clear you were disproving my claim by using data for a separate situation. I never asked you to run numbers without formation bonuses. I specifically said the Dire Avengers in the formation drastically outperform their competition and you replied that it wasn't true and stated your results. From what you're saying, I think you should have replied "Yes, the dire avengers are significantly stronger than their opponents when part of the formations, but lets look at this other, different data for when they don't have those bonuses". I'll take your word for it if it was just a misunderstanding then or unintentional and I apologize then if your intent was not to misrepresent the matchup I was describing. I'd gladly continue to run unit comparisons if you'd like or further discuss whether it is or is not fair to consider the Eldar formations when determining Eldar power levels.
Okay guys the CSM vs Dire Avengers arguement started as somewhat pointless and has escalated downwards.
1) CSM are an awful unit. They are overcosted in every comparison so measuring any unit against them gives the same thing. You could compare them to Imperial Guardsmen and IG would come way out on top.
2) CSM's best ability is being able to purchase upgrades and various transports. Ironically their most prevalent and by far and away best use is as spare wounds for a HQ...so you are comparing apples and oranges when you compare CSM to Dire Avengers. In the original comparison it was somewhat strange but when comparing the formation (who loose ObjSec) to the CADCSM (whose only role in life is ablative wounds and ObjSec) it becomes ludicrous. BTW the loss of ObjSec by one of these formations just lost Reece 250 usd...so I guess ObjSec is worth something. 3) If you are going to try comparing the two units then it should be in configurations that have meaning. Comparing any number of CSM without upgrades to Dire Avengers is like comparing IG vets without upgrades to Necron warriors. The vets are a very good troop unit but they will be laughably bad in this comparison.
4) Ironically in the formation you have veered sharply away from a troops choice and are now talking about damage dealing unit. They are not required to unlock anything and they also lack ObjSec. Thus by all rights they have more in common with a thunderfire cannon or purifiers than CSM.
One the topic of allies. IMO the webway portal and armour of misery alone make DE a premier if not the premier allies choice for CWE. Even if you don't use the WWP for scythe guard it is still devastation just to get fire dragons or a foot seer council in place. In fact you could make an alternative freak show list out of foot seer council formations. What it lacks in Ld modifiers it makes up for in getting 2-3 times the number of powers off.
I am actually very happy to see the buffs to aspect warriors. They were mostly not functional before as they either did to little damage for their price (dark reapers), had been neutered by the AP1 nerf (fire dragons), had no durable assault transport and lacked damage output and even grenades (Banshees and Scorpions), etc. They fixed almost all the problems with aspect warriors that kept them from being meaningful. The warp spiders actually got a sideways movement on their gun profile (better against many MCs and worse against vehicles and many infantry) but they got a pretty huge durability buff in their new blink away ability. I like the rule however as it makes playing with and against them a much more tactical experience, which is cool. Hopefully they FAQ it to only work once per turn.
One the topic of allies. IMO the webway portal and armour of misery alone make DE a premier if not the premier allies choice for CWE. Even if you don't use the WWP for scythe guard it is still devastation just to get fire dragons or a foot seer council in place. In fact you could make an alternative freak show list out of foot seer council formations. What it lacks in Ld modifiers it makes up for in getting 2-3 times the number of powers off.
A DE court of the Archon, with a handful of Medusae + a falcon squadron is awesome. It's like wraith scythes, only less over-kill.
Wraith scythes + transport + webway lands you around 400 points, and you hit 1 unit really hard, while taking a few pot shots at another unit.
2x Count + falcons +fire dragons for the 3rd transport gives you a godly beta strike.
6 S8 AP2 shots, 3 S8 AP2 lances, 6 super melta guns, 10 S4 AP3 templates, is 772 points. It's just under twice the cost, but in hitting power, it's hitting 3 times as hard.
With 1 perfect deep strike, and 2 more placements within 4", the size of a falcon lets you cover a ton of the table.
Best of all, terribly effective in an environment that limits or bans D shooting.
HawaiiMatt wrote: A DE court of the Archon, with a handful of Medusae + a falcon squadron is awesome. It's like wraith scythes, only less over-kill.
Wraith scythes + transport + webway lands you around 400 points, and you hit 1 unit really hard, while taking a few pot shots at another unit.
2x Count + falcons +fire dragons for the 3rd transport gives you a godly beta strike.
6 S8 AP2 shots, 3 S8 AP2 lances, 6 super melta guns, 10 S4 AP3 templates, is 772 points. It's just under twice the cost, but in hitting power, it's hitting 3 times as hard.
With 1 perfect deep strike, and 2 more placements within 4", the size of a falcon lets you cover a ton of the table.
Best of all, terribly effective in an environment that limits or bans D shooting.
I agree to some degree. I am not as sold on DS units of falcons as a lot of people are as I play Elysians and so have lots of experience with DSing bulky models even with no scatter. It can be very difficult to fit 3 models the size of falcons where you want them. Still though in combination with the rest of the CWE codex it could work nicely to contain the opponent to their deployment zone or risk getting a very nasty beta strike where they do not want it.
IMO the wraithscythes w/ WWP is not as good as most people are raving on about. It is a 400 pts unit that will tend to be a 1 hit wonder in most games. When considered together with interceptor Tau, Coteaz + grav centurions, and bubble wrap units this unit is not as scary as the on paper stats make it appear. I do however like them in the context of a Wraith Host formation taken in a Craftworld Warhost. This removes the need of the transport to allow the unit to use all it's templates (thanks to a 6" battle focus) and also makes the unit quite fast without depending on a fragile AV11 transport.
The only thing I take issue with in the OP is the Ranger's red rating - I would bump that up to orange. You're right that their shooting potential is basically nil, but they gained Shrouded in this edition (over the previous edition's Stealth), which allows them to get 2+ cover saves in almost any terrain by going to ground. That makes them a very cheap way to camp an objective, with the only reliable way to dislodge them being to shooting them with Ignores Cover, or assault them. They're still a fairly bad unit, but they're quite a bit more durable than they were in the 6th ed codex.
ansacs wrote: 1) CSM are an awful unit. They are overcosted in every comparison so measuring any unit against them gives the same thing.
Every comparison? Every one?
If we look at Sisters of Battle, the basic Sister is a single point cheaper. For that single point saved, a Battle Sister loses -1 WS -1S -1T off her statline; loses access to the "real" Heavy Weapons like Autocannon, Missile Launcher, and Lascannon; loses access to Marks and Standards; loses various Character upgrades. But she does gain a 6++ Invulerable save.
Point for point, I think Chaos Space Marines outclass Sisters of Battle every single time.
If we look at Sisters of Battle, the basic Sister is a single point cheaper. For that single point saved, a Battle Sister loses -1 WS -1S -1T off her statline; loses access to the "real" Heavy Weapons like Autocannon, Missile Launcher, and Lascannon; loses access to Marks and Standards; loses various Character upgrades. But she does gain a 6++ Invulerable save.
Point for point, I think Chaos Space Marines outclass Sisters of Battle every single time.
I am actually a SoB player. The sister loose a lot in stats but gain 2 special weapons per unit of 5 and a vastly superior transport. That is a massive gain. I regularly field immolators + 5 sisters w/ 2 meltaguns as the core of my force. I am entirely fine playing this against most of the top lists in the game. Most of my opponents consider this list much nastier than most of my SM and IG lists or even my CSM lists.
For CSM to get that 1 missile launcher/lascannon/autocannon they have to take a unit of 10...that are all equiped with 24" weapons at best? CSM don't get combat squad or morale control. Sisters also get cheap priests to help with morale and give lots of nice bonuses. Honestly this entire discussion is just another case of comparing a model 1v1 without any context and coming up with goofy conclusions.
BTW according to the CSM codex a 6++ invulnerable save is worth 2 pts per CSM.
If we look at Sisters of Battle, the basic Sister is a single point cheaper. For that single point saved, a Battle Sister loses -1 WS -1S -1T off her statline; loses access to the "real" Heavy Weapons like Autocannon, Missile Launcher, and Lascannon; loses access to Marks and Standards; loses various Character upgrades. But she does gain a 6++ Invulerable save.
Point for point, I think Chaos Space Marines outclass Sisters of Battle every single time.
I am actually a SoB player. The sister loose a lot in stats but gain 2 special weapons per unit of 5 and a vastly superior transport. That is a massive gain. I regularly field immolators + 5 sisters w/ 2 meltaguns as the core of my force. I am entirely fine playing this against most of the top lists in the game. Most of my opponents consider this list much nastier than most of my SM and IG lists or even my CSM lists.
For CSM to get that 1 missile launcher/lascannon/autocannon they have to take a unit of 10...that are all equiped with 24" weapons at best? CSM don't get combat squad or morale control. Sisters also get cheap priests to help with morale and give lots of nice bonuses. Honestly this entire discussion is just another case of comparing a model 1v1 without any context and coming up with goofy conclusions.
BTW according to the CSM codex a 6++ invulnerable save is worth 2 pts per CSM.
I agree, which is why you shouldn't be able to look at those Sisters with their Transport or synergy effects, because that's not apples to apples. Just the same 150-odd points of the two units in a straight-up fight, where they magically happen to be exactly in each other's optimal firing range...
JohnHwangDD wrote: I agree, which is why you shouldn't be able to look at those Sisters with their Transport or synergy effects, because that's not apples to apples. Just the same 150-odd points of the two units in a straight-up fight, where they magically happen to be exactly in each other's optimal firing range...
ansacs wrote: Okay guys the CSM vs Dire Avengers arguement started as somewhat pointless and has escalated downwards.
1) CSM are an awful unit. They are overcosted in every comparison so measuring any unit against them gives the same thing. You could compare them to Imperial Guardsmen and IG would come way out on top.
2) CSM's best ability is being able to purchase upgrades and various transports. Ironically their most prevalent and by far and away best use is as spare wounds for a HQ...so you are comparing apples and oranges when you compare CSM to Dire Avengers. In the original comparison it was somewhat strange but when comparing the formation (who loose ObjSec) to the CADCSM (whose only role in life is ablative wounds and ObjSec) it becomes ludicrous. BTW the loss of ObjSec by one of these formations just lost Reece 250 usd...so I guess ObjSec is worth something. 3) If you are going to try comparing the two units then it should be in configurations that have meaning. Comparing any number of CSM without upgrades to Dire Avengers is like comparing IG vets without upgrades to Necron warriors. The vets are a very good troop unit but they will be laughably bad in this comparison.
4) Ironically in the formation you have veered sharply away from a troops choice and are now talking about damage dealing unit. They are not required to unlock anything and they also lack ObjSec. Thus by all rights they have more in common with a thunderfire cannon or purifiers than CSM.
One the topic of allies. IMO the webway portal and armour of misery alone make DE a premier if not the premier allies choice for CWE. Even if you don't use the WWP for scythe guard it is still devastation just to get fire dragons or a foot seer council in place. In fact you could make an alternative freak show list out of foot seer council formations. What it lacks in Ld modifiers it makes up for in getting 2-3 times the number of powers off.
I am actually very happy to see the buffs to aspect warriors. They were mostly not functional before as they either did to little damage for their price (dark reapers), had been neutered by the AP1 nerf (fire dragons), had no durable assault transport and lacked damage output and even grenades (Banshees and Scorpions), etc. They fixed almost all the problems with aspect warriors that kept them from being meaningful. The warp spiders actually got a sideways movement on their gun profile (better against many MCs and worse against vehicles and many infantry) but they got a pretty huge durability buff in their new blink away ability. I like the rule however as it makes playing with and against them a much more tactical experience, which is cool. Hopefully they FAQ it to only work once per turn.
If you have other units in mind you think are easier to compare with and are more valid then I'd be glad to hear them. I've proposed a fair number of pairings that I think fill similar roles, but I'm open to other options. I feel like there can almost always be an argument made that "such and such comparison is invalid" because no two units have the EXACT same rules and options available to them and it's quite difficult to get agreement on things like "how much is ATSKNF worth?" so do share if you have suggestions.
To points 1 and 2, I don't think of CSM as worse than the standard troop choices in other armies either though. I just chose CSM because they're 13 points each. I personally like to field a unit or two of them in rhinos when I play chaos, but I'd take DA in a wave serpent any day that I had the choice. I've definitely never used mine as wounds for an HQ because I've found Chaos HQ's are typically riding on juggernauts/bikes or are daemon princes.
To point 4, maybe you're expecting a different sort of list from the Eldar than I am. I'm expecting lists built like the following:
CAD Autarch/Farseer on jetbike
Couple windrider jetbike squads with scatter lasers
Squadron of 3 grav tanks
Wraithknight
Maybe a squadron of wraithguard
Supported by some combination of the following formations
Aspect Host formation (3x fire dragons) mounted in the 3 grav tanks for precision deepstrikes
Crimson Death formation for air dominance and more anti-armor
Dire Avenger Shrine in wave serpents for shredding anything with toughness values
More Aspect Hosts with some mix of Warp Spiders and Dark Reapers
It seems it would be pretty easy to adjust the formations according to local playstyles and I don't rate the objective secured that highly for the infantry because I think in general the windriders will do it far better.
lessthanjeff wrote:If you have other units in mind you think are easier to compare with and are more valid then I'd be glad to hear them. I've proposed a fair number of pairings that I think fill similar roles, but I'm open to other options. I feel like there can almost always be an argument made that "such and such comparison is invalid" because no two units have the EXACT same rules and options available to them and it's quite difficult to get agreement on things like "how much is ATSKNF worth?" so do share if you have suggestions.
JohnHwangDD wrote:Exactly! Which is why I really hate these kinds of arguments, because they really don't "prove" anything.
I agree that these cross comparisons with very different purpose units rarely accomplish anything constructive. CSM can be compared to SMTAC squads very easily as (and CSM are pathetic in comparison) but most of the xenos races are tougher to compare to imperial units as the imperial (and CSM) units always tend to be about the special weapons they can take.
I think comparison units should have a similar purpose in the list and probably be measured against this purpose rather than each other (ie a rapier battery vs a lascannon blobb squad is a ridiculous example of this). The closest equivolent I can think of from IoM armies would be storm bolter inquisitorial acolytes (6 ppm) which are semi mobile anti infantry firepower, perhaps DE scourges who in their army can be good mobile anti infantry, or Sslyth. Ironically there are not really that many close range anti infantry options that are not taken for the ObjSec status or special weapons (both of which are almost impossible to compare to the dire avengers). In reality dire avengers in formation's real competitors are things like; DE - empty venom (65 pts), IG - 20 conscripts w/ priest + wyvern (150 pts), or Imperial Fists - Centurion Devs w/ HB and Hurricane Bolters (190 pts). Most of these occupy relatively free slots in their army and have similar focuses.
lessthanjeff wrote:To points 1 and 2, I don't think of CSM as worse than the standard troop choices in other armies either though. I just chose CSM because they're 13 points each. I personally like to field a unit or two of them in rhinos when I play chaos, but I'd take DA in a wave serpent any day that I had the choice. I've definitely never used mine as wounds for an HQ because I've found Chaos HQ's are typically riding on juggernauts/bikes or are daemon princes.
CSM can very easily be compare to SMTAC squads as they share many of the same load outs and options. What you learn is that apparently ATSKNF and Chapter Tactics is worth 1 ppm? The funniest part about this being that there is a thread pretty much every week claiming SMTAC squads are junk (they are actually really good with the right chapter tactics and drop pods but that is a completely different talk).
lessthanjeff wrote:To point 4, maybe you're expecting a different sort of list from the Eldar than I am. I'm expecting lists built like the following:
CAD Autarch/Farseer on jetbike
Couple windrider jetbike squads with scatter lasers
Squadron of 3 grav tanks
Wraithknight
Maybe a squadron of wraithguard
Supported by some combination of the following formations
Aspect Host formation (3x fire dragons) mounted in the 3 grav tanks for precision deepstrikes
Crimson Death formation for air dominance and more anti-armor
Dire Avenger Shrine in wave serpents for shredding anything with toughness values
More Aspect Hosts with some mix of Warp Spiders and Dark Reapers
It seems it would be pretty easy to adjust the formations according to local playstyles and I don't rate the objective secured that highly for the infantry because I think in general the windriders will do it far better.
The dire avenger shrine is a really cool alternative take on dire avengers. What you have is a unit with the same name but a very different purpose. CAD Dire Avengers are a cheap scoring unit that can be shoved in durable transports (making them ObjSec) and fulfill the minimum troop requirements. Windriders are very good damage but they are much less durable than a waveserpent and dire avengers. CAD Dire Avengers are an alternative to ObjSec windrider units.
Alternatively you can take the Dire Avenger Shrine instead or warp spiders or D scythe wraithguard units to provide infantry murdering and some anti MC firepower. They are as useful as a venom to claim objectives but they can hit like a ton of bricks when used well. Just like whether CAD Dire Avengers are worthwhile in comparison to Windriders there is a question of whether Dire Avenger Shrine is worthwhile in comparison to D scythe wraithguard or warp spiders.
The DA Shrine is indeed how people should be taking DA, if they were taking them in any quantity. The thing is, it's a rather inflexible blob, with exactly 1 Exarch for exactly 3 squads.
It also flips the DAMU / DAVU concept, because the DA become competitive in their own right, rather than as a minimum tax to get a "good" Transport on the board.
JohnHwangDD wrote: The DA Shrine is indeed how people should be taking DA, if they were taking them in any quantity. The thing is, it's a rather inflexible blob, with exactly 1 Exarch for exactly 3 squads.
It also flips the DAMU / DAVU concept, because the DA become competitive in their own right, rather than as a minimum tax to get a "good" Transport on the board.
Only 1 squad may have an exarch. You could run the formation without any, as you aren't required to have 1, you're just prevented from having more than one.
Since you're already BS5 and LD9, I'd skip the exarch anyway.
I just don't see a reason to take a Dire Avengers formation though. You're not getting Obj. secured. You're not as good as the other ranged aspects. The only real benefit is the once per game Assault 3 which can either be worthless or amazing, but not nearly as competitive as spiders, hawks, reapers, or dragons. You're paying 13 points for glorified defenders without a weapons platform. T3 with a 4+ isn't going to stand up to much pressure, and a 24" range isn't that great. I feel like if you're taking this formation it's a preference for casual play.
Goldphish wrote: I just don't see a reason to take a Dire Avengers formation though. You're not getting Obj. secured. You're not as good as the other ranged aspects. The only real benefit is the once per game Assault 3 which can either be worthless or amazing, but not nearly as competitive as spiders, hawks, reapers, or dragons. You're paying 13 points for glorified defenders without a weapons platform. T3 with a 4+ isn't going to stand up to much pressure, and a 24" range isn't that great. I feel like if you're taking this formation it's a preference for casual play.
um, and the bs5 on a basic troop, and the rerolling essentially all leadership based tests, and the auto run 6" even if firing, can damage any unit in the game with bladestorm, overwatch at bs2, extra shot for 1 turn for all units in formation, all for a 13 point troop
um, and the bs5 on a basic troop, and the rerolling essentially all leadership based tests, and the auto run 6" even if firing, can damage any unit in the game with bladestorm, overwatch at bs2, extra shot for 1 turn for all units in formation, all for a 13 point troop
Aspect host is BS5. Warp spiders can auto pass them. Everyone gets 6" run. DA can't hurt vehicles, spiders can. BS2 over watch is okay, and the assault 3 is pretty good, but warp spiders do all of that way better for 19 points. In the formation being a basic troop means nothing. Your either obj. secured or not.
Having played a few games with the new dex I'll say I'd much rather have obsec.
Dire Avengers dont do much for me anyway. Other option kill things just as well or better on faster and/or more durable platforms. I would rather take squads of ANY fast attack over the formation Avengers. Without the formation Avengers still have a solid leadership which will do the job most of the time. They also have fleet to reduce the need for a guaranteed 6" run (assuming you are running a warhost). They get the BS 2 overwatch without it. The extra shot and BS is nice but not worth risking objective denials. Not to mention the obsec Serpent you can get outside the formation.
While Serps arent quite as powerful now, they are still a really durable transport that can easily swipe objectives away from opponents.
The Aspect Host is a much better formation all around, especially because you dont have to select units that give up such a solid buff like obsec in a CAD. Its works well for the warhost as well as for standard CADs. If you were going to run a warhost and wanted to run several DA squads for personal taste, sure use the specific shrine formation. That's going to be several points in squishy but reasonable anti infantry before you even get to the Avengers. So, you will miss out on a little bit of list balancing.
Avengers are good infantry. But they serve a better role as a threatening troop than as a kill squad.
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Side notes: 1. scatterbikes will die quickly to some pressure, and Ld 8 is not nearly as reliable as Ld 9. Also, misses obsec for late game steals.
2. Hawks are crazy fast and put out good shot output from a solid range. Blind is very helpful against potential troubles like Necrons.
3. The Wraithknight is very durable and much scarier in assault even while running double D. His gun killing can still vary wildly from amazing to meh.
What do you think of the missile launcher in the new codex? Sure, it's the most expensive choice, and it's less effective anti-tank than the bright lance and worse anti-infantry than the scatter laser, but it outranges them, and has skyfire as well. With the loss of laser lock I'm considering them on pretty much everything, especially since I don't have any aircraft of my own. Even Vypers might be decent if the can stay 48" away and snipe at things.
Okapi wrote: What do you think of the missile launcher in the new codex? Sure, it's the most expensive choice, and it's less effective anti-tank than the bright lance and worse anti-infantry than the scatter laser, but it outranges them, and has skyfire as well. With the loss of laser lock I'm considering them on pretty much everything, especially since I don't have any aircraft of my own. Even Vypers might be decent if the can stay 48" away and snipe at things.
EML on mobile vehicles, that can reserve and deploy and beta strike after enemy fliers arrive - can be a great thing.
Okapi wrote: What do you think of the missile launcher in the new codex? Sure, it's the most expensive choice, and it's less effective anti-tank than the bright lance and worse anti-infantry than the scatter laser, but it outranges them, and has skyfire as well. With the loss of laser lock I'm considering them on pretty much everything, especially since I don't have any aircraft of my own. Even Vypers might be decent if the can stay 48" away and snipe at things.
Crossposting this from another thread where I had this discussion. Feel free to check my math, because I often make mistakes.
Acidian wrote: Posting the math here so you can look it over and see if I am wrong.
Chance to score a hit with TL scatter laser on flyer: 4*(1/6) + ((4-4*(1/6)) *1/6)= 0,667 + 0,555 = 1,222
Chance to score a hit with TLEML: 1*(4/6) + ((1-1*(4/6))*4/6) = 0,667 + 0,222 = 0,889
So you actually have a higher chance to hit with SL than EML against a flyer.
Then against Flyrant or AV10
SL: 1,222*(3/6)= 0,611
EML: 0,889*(4/6)= 0,593
So the SL then does more damage against AV10 and Flyrant on average. Too bad the missiles aren't AP3 so you could ignore the armor on the flyrant and/or give it a reason to Jink.
Against AV11:
SL: 1,222*(2/6)= 0,407
EML: 0,889*(3/6)= 0444
Against AV12:
SL: 1,222*(1/6)= 0,204
EML: 0,889*(2/6)= 0,296
At this point the difference in chance of scoring a wound is so small that you might as well ignore it. 9% better chance of wounding an av12 for 10 points extra and 2% worse chance of wounding a flyrant.
The EML blast will seldom hit more than 4 models anyway (assuming you play with people who spread their models as much as they can). If it was AP3 or large blast it would have been a more interesting choice.
The starshot would only be better if you are fighting AV13 models.
So you are spending 10 points extra on each Wave Serpent on a gun that is usually worse but which in certain situations is incrimentally better, and only better if you don't have any other S8+ weapons in your list (which you can also guide/priescence with farseer).
FlingitNow wrote: As the maths tells you the EML is useless and should never be taken. I never understand why they cost AA weapons at a point where you're usually just better off taking a non-skyfiring volume fire unit. Like in the last dex you got more S7 hits on a flyer from Warp Spiders than EML war walkers point for point.
Let's assume you let Guardians waltz up to Chaos Marines, while they twiddle their thumbs:
13 Guardians vs 9 CSM (same points)
Guardians (13)(2)(5/27) CSM (counting rends). 4.8 CSM die. 62.4 points worth, or a little better than half their cost.
If CSM instead shot first?
CSM kill (9)(2)(2/3)(2/3)(1) Guardians. 8 Guardians die. 76pts. Substantially better.
So, in the only scenario Guardians can do damage, assuming they are left alone to cross half the field, they do less to CSM than CSM would do to them.
Even with Battle Focus, there is no excuse for a 12" gun to get first salvo
I used defender guardians all through the last dex. They are basically unchanged, so this still stands. You don't use them like this: you take 3 squads in 3 wave serpents and you "pump n dump" you drop 60 str 4 rending shots at BS4 into any infantry you like, usually they are in cover so their cover becomes yours, you utterly anhilate the target so there is no return fire. The wave serpents block the LOS and always absorb any return fire because they engage (the all but inevitable) secondary threats, those secondary threats are fairly mauled too and then they universally shoot back. Then you saddle up and go elsewhere.
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Okapi wrote: What do you think of the missile launcher in the new codex? Sure, it's the most expensive choice, and it's less effective anti-tank than the bright lance and worse anti-infantry than the scatter laser, but it outranges them, and has skyfire as well. With the loss of laser lock I'm considering them on pretty much everything, especially since I don't have any aircraft of my own. Even Vypers might be decent if the can stay 48" away and snipe at things.
This is emerging as the current meta.. EML.. across the board.. the guardians who get free weapons platforms and wave serps will all carry them now
The only thing I take issue with in the OP is the Ranger's red rating - I would bump that up to orange. You're right that their shooting potential is basically nil, but they gained Shrouded in this edition (over the previous edition's Stealth), which allows them to get 2+ cover saves in almost any terrain by going to ground. That makes them a very cheap way to camp an objective, with the only reliable way to dislodge them being to shooting them with Ignores Cover, or assault them. They're still a fairly bad unit, but they're quite a bit more durable than they were in the 6th ed codex.
Agreed. This is especially useful as they're pretty cheap, so will be useful for people wanting to stick a CAD onto their Primary Craftworld Detachment.
JohnHwangDD wrote:The DA Shrine is indeed how people should be taking DA, if they were taking them in any quantity. The thing is, it's a rather inflexible blob, with exactly 1 Exarch for exactly 3 squads.
I'm not quite sure what I think about the DA Shrine yet, it's obviously good but I was thinking you need to maximise models to make the most out of it. My plan, as was the case with many of my lists last edition, was to take one unit of 10 with an Exarch with Power Weapon and Shimmershield, attached to a Farseer/Eldrad, an the other two units being 5-6 bare bones in a Wave Serpent. I know the DAs in a WS used to be taken primarily for the Serpent, but they're still good (just not OP) and I hoped the extra DAs would come in more useful with the formation, especially considering that I can get them where I want them more easily.
I think comparison units should have a similar purpose in the list and probably be measured against this purpose rather than each other (ie a rapier battery vs a lascannon blobb squad is a ridiculous example of this). The closest equivolent I can think of from IoM armies would be storm bolter inquisitorial acolytes (6 ppm) which are semi mobile anti infantry firepower, perhaps DE scourges who in their army can be good mobile anti infantry, or Sslyth. Ironically there are not really that many close range anti infantry options that are not taken for the ObjSec status or special weapons (both of which are almost impossible to compare to the dire avengers). In reality dire avengers in formation's real competitors are things like; DE - empty venom (65 pts), IG - 20 conscripts w/ priest + wyvern (150 pts), or Imperial Fists - Centurion Devs w/ HB and Hurricane Bolters (190 pts). Most of these occupy relatively free slots in their army and have similar focuses.
I agree completely. That's why I began with the comparison of blasterborn to fire dragon because I can think of few more identical units in terms of stat line, role on the battlefield, and even slot on the FOC. The comparison goes abysmally for the trueborn, but then I got the same response "that's a flawed comparison". There will always be a complaint raised against any comparison made it seems.
I don't put a lot of stock into claims that tacticals are garbage or "unit-x" is terrible and can't be compared because I think that kind of stuff is too much up to opinion. I know people who say lots of units that I rather like are terrible like necron warriors and maulerfiends. Heck, I even see a lot of people questioning fire dragons because they see wraithguard as strictly better but I think fire dragons are phenomenal.
I'm not too keen on EML myself. Getting free ones from guardian squads is nice, but I don't think I'd take that formation over the other ones myself. If you want AA, I think the crimson hunter formation is fantastic for what it does and its cost. The preferred enemy, rerolls for armor pens, and 4+ save without having to jink are excellent and will solve any flyer problems as well as providing very solid anti armor options afterwards thanks to vector dancer.
Anyone tested the new Banshees at all, do you think they are viable? I guess running exocutioner is the best for the exarch, but how many models should the squad take? I assume it would be good to take some extra models since they will lose some on the way to the target.
lessthanjeff wrote: If you want AA, I think the crimson hunter formation is fantastic for what it does and its cost. The preferred enemy, rerolls for armor pens, and 4+ save without having to jink are excellent and will solve any flyer problems as well as providing very solid anti armor options afterwards thanks to vector dancer.
Just sucks that you have to spend 440 points on Crimson Hunters. I usually run 1850 games and it's hard to make room for 3 at that point limit. I ran them in a game last monday, it was refreshing to play a game where all my crimson hunters was alive at the end. However my exarch didn't make it on the table in any of the rounds where I had to roll for reinfocements.
Yeah, 3 Hunters is overkill. Sure, you'll dominate the air but half the time the opponent won't be taking many (or any) flyers, and so most of those points would have been better spent elsewhere. There's still plenty of units that work well against anti-air as well as ground units in the new book, so, whilst one Hunter may be fine (if you're using a CAD), you're probably better off spending the other points on something more versatile.
ansacs wrote: Okay guys the CSM vs Dire Avengers arguement started as somewhat pointless and has escalated downwards.
1) CSM are an awful unit. They are overcosted in every comparison so measuring any unit against them gives the same thing. You could compare them to Imperial Guardsmen and IG would come way out on top.
2) CSM's best ability is being able to purchase upgrades and various transports. Ironically their most prevalent and by far and away best use is as spare wounds for a HQ...so you are comparing apples and oranges when you compare CSM to Dire Avengers. In the original comparison it was somewhat strange but when comparing the formation (who loose ObjSec) to the CADCSM (whose only role in life is ablative wounds and ObjSec) it becomes ludicrous. BTW the loss of ObjSec by one of these formations just lost Reece 250 usd...so I guess ObjSec is worth something. 3) If you are going to try comparing the two units then it should be in configurations that have meaning. Comparing any number of CSM without upgrades to Dire Avengers is like comparing IG vets without upgrades to Necron warriors. The vets are a very good troop unit but they will be laughably bad in this comparison.
4) Ironically in the formation you have veered sharply away from a troops choice and are now talking about damage dealing unit. They are not required to unlock anything and they also lack ObjSec. Thus by all rights they have more in common with a thunderfire cannon or purifiers than CSM.
One the topic of allies. IMO the webway portal and armour of misery alone make DE a premier if not the premier allies choice for CWE. Even if you don't use the WWP for scythe guard it is still devastation just to get fire dragons or a foot seer council in place. In fact you could make an alternative freak show list out of foot seer council formations. What it lacks in Ld modifiers it makes up for in getting 2-3 times the number of powers off.
I am actually very happy to see the buffs to aspect warriors. They were mostly not functional before as they either did to little damage for their price (dark reapers), had been neutered by the AP1 nerf (fire dragons), had no durable assault transport and lacked damage output and even grenades (Banshees and Scorpions), etc. They fixed almost all the problems with aspect warriors that kept them from being meaningful. The warp spiders actually got a sideways movement on their gun profile (better against many MCs and worse against vehicles and many infantry) but they got a pretty huge durability buff in their new blink away ability. I like the rule however as it makes playing with and against them a much more tactical experience, which is cool. Hopefully they FAQ it to only work once per turn.
If you have other units in mind you think are easier to compare with and are more valid then I'd be glad to hear them. I've proposed a fair number of pairings that I think fill similar roles, but I'm open to other options. I feel like there can almost always be an argument made that "such and such comparison is invalid" because no two units have the EXACT same rules and options available to them and it's quite difficult to get agreement on things like "how much is ATSKNF worth?" so do share if you have suggestions.
To points 1 and 2, I don't think of CSM as worse than the standard troop choices in other armies either though. I just chose CSM because they're 13 points each. I personally like to field a unit or two of them in rhinos when I play chaos, but I'd take DA in a wave serpent any day that I had the choice. I've definitely never used mine as wounds for an HQ because I've found Chaos HQ's are typically riding on juggernauts/bikes or are daemon princes.
To point 4, maybe you're expecting a different sort of list from the Eldar than I am. I'm expecting lists built like the following:
CAD Autarch/Farseer on jetbike
Couple windrider jetbike squads with scatter lasers
Squadron of 3 grav tanks
Wraithknight
Maybe a squadron of wraithguard
Supported by some combination of the following formations
Aspect Host formation (3x fire dragons) mounted in the 3 grav tanks for precision deepstrikes
Crimson Death formation for air dominance and more anti-armor
Dire Avenger Shrine in wave serpents for shredding anything with toughness values
More Aspect Hosts with some mix of Warp Spiders and Dark Reapers
It seems it would be pretty easy to adjust the formations according to local playstyles and I don't rate the objective secured that highly for the infantry because I think in general the windriders will do it far better.
I think you'll find you quickly run out of points by trying to build an Eldar list like that. Here is my current working copy for a null-deployment Eldar at 1850 (currently totals 1804). Its a possible list for ATC so I'm a little stuck on the sources, but the only way to optimize it more would be to move some of the Aspects (lets assume the two Fire Dragon squads and the Warpspiders) out of the CAD and into a single Aspect Host for the +1 BS buff. The buy in cost for the formations is generally high enough that it limits you from stacking too many into a standard game (1500-1850 points).
The Shadow wrote: Yeah, 3 Hunters is overkill. Sure, you'll dominate the air but half the time the opponent won't be taking many (or any) flyers, and so most of those points would have been better spent elsewhere. There's still plenty of units that work well against anti-air as well as ground units in the new book, so, whilst one Hunter may be fine (if you're using a CAD), you're probably better off spending the other points on something more versatile.
It's overkill for air dominance, but don't underestimate their impact against ground targets too. MEQ armies pay that 140 points per tri-las predator tanks (with one being twin linked). You're paying the same for 4 str 8 ap 2 shots (2 with lance), much better mobility, and arguably better toughness since they snapshoot at you and you can control positions well with vector dancer as well as hit rear and side arcs. Even if the opponent brings no flyers at all, I'd be pretty happy with that option for cracking hulls.
Panzer, if you cut the ghostwalk matrices (or play around with other numbers a bit like 3 bikes instead of 4 or 5 spiders instead of 7) you could throw in a third barebones Dire Avenger squad to get the dire avenger shrine and just have them come in from normal reserves. Don't forget that this will add bs 5 to the wave serpents they're in as well which I think would make it worth it to find the 65 points.
Edit: Noticing that you had more points to spare, I think I'd actually cut the warp spiders to 5 and take the bikes both down to 3 (4 probably isn't an ideal number since taking a loss still forces a morale check. 5 is good, otherwise I'd stick at 3 and MSU it). This would get you the third DA squad AND another wave serpent to bring in from reserves in addition to giving all 3 of the squads and their vehicles BS 5 and the one time assault 3 bonus for the avengers). Gives you 2 more targets on the table and buffs the other ones you already had.
The Shadow wrote: Yeah, 3 Hunters is overkill. Sure, you'll dominate the air but half the time the opponent won't be taking many (or any) flyers, and so most of those points would have been better spent elsewhere. There's still plenty of units that work well against anti-air as well as ground units in the new book, so, whilst one Hunter may be fine (if you're using a CAD), you're probably better off spending the other points on something more versatile.
It's overkill for air dominance, but don't underestimate their impact against ground targets too. MEQ armies pay that 140 points per tri-las predator tanks (with one being twin linked). You're paying the same for 4 str 8 ap 2 shots (2 with lance), much better mobility, and arguably better toughness since they snapshoot at you and you can control positions well with vector dancer as well as hit rear and side arcs. Even if the opponent brings no flyers at all, I'd be pretty happy with that option for cracking hulls.
That's very true, but I find that anti-MEQ/TEQ and, to a lesser extent, anti-armour is something that the Eldar Army does very well anyway.
Best two units to compare currently are Scourge and Swooping Hawks. Both cost 16 points, both are FA yet look at the differences between them even when you disregard an aspect shrine.
Scourge movement: 12" with fleet
Hawk movement: 18" fleet, battle focus,
Scourge gun: assault 3 18" poison
Hawk gun: assault 3 24" s3
additional gear Scourge: Plasma grenades
Additional gear hawks: Plasma grenades, HAYWIRE grenades, Grenade pack
Additional rules Scourge: 6++ power from pain
Additional rules Hawks: Skyleap, Herald of Victory (exarch), intercept fliers
Yea that's incredibly even....
Taken in a shrine those hawks can be BS5 or if facing Imperial knights why not go for WS5 for lol's so you can hit with haywire grenades on 3's after you engage one from 27" out on average (18" move plus 9" assault with fleet, turn 1 any one?). Not bad for a 170 point unit against a 375.
Scourge were ever so slightly worse before and now that margin is blown so wide it's idiotic because that 18" move is insane, now I'd take hawks over any other aspect since they do it all. They kill armor, they sweep objectives, they last turn contest.... it's incredible.
Red Corsair wrote: Best two units to compare currently are Scourge and Swooping Hawks. Both cost 16 points, both are FA yet look at the differences between them even when you disregard an aspect shrine.
Scourge movement: 12" with fleet
Hawk movement: 18" fleet, battle focus,
Scourge gun: assault 3 18" poison
Hawk gun: assault 3 24" s3
additional gear Scourge: Plasma grenades
Additional gear hawks: Plasma grenades, HAYWIRE grenades, Grenade pack
Additional rules Scourge: 6++ power from pain
Additional rules Hawks: Skyleap, Herald of Victory (exarch), intercept fliers
Yea that's incredibly even....
Taken in a shrine those hawks can be BS5 or if facing Imperial knights why not go for WS5 for lol's so you can hit with haywire grenades on 3's after you engage one from 27" out on average (18" move plus 9" assault with fleet, turn 1 any one?). Not bad for a 170 point unit against a 375.
Scourge were ever so slightly worse before and now that margin is blown so wide it's idiotic because that 18" move is insane, now I'd take hawks over any other aspect since they do it all. They kill armor, they sweep objectives, they last turn contest.... it's incredible.
Yeah, Hawks are ridiculously good now, but don't forget the weapons that Scourges can take, which makes them put out a lot of firepower that can be effective against a large variety of targets. Yes, it's more points, but still useful and a different role to Hawks. They're similar, and Hawks probably are better overall, but Scourges still have a place!
Goldphish wrote: I just don't see a reason to take a Dire Avengers formation though. You're not getting Obj. secured. You're not as good as the other ranged aspects. The only real benefit is the once per game Assault 3 which can either be worthless or amazing, but not nearly as competitive as spiders, hawks, reapers, or dragons. You're paying 13 points for glorified defenders without a weapons platform. T3 with a 4+ isn't going to stand up to much pressure, and a 24" range isn't that great. I feel like if you're taking this formation it's a preference for casual play.
um, and the bs5 on a basic troop, and the rerolling essentially all leadership based tests, and the auto run 6" even if firing, can damage any unit in the game with bladestorm, overwatch at bs2, extra shot for 1 turn for all units in formation, all for a 13 point troop
The auto-run comes from the 500-ish points of Guardians, not from the DA Shrine.
Red Corsair wrote: Best two units to compare currently are Scourge and Swooping Hawks. Both cost 16 points, both are FA yet look at the differences between them even when you disregard an aspect shrine.
Scourge movement: 12" with fleet
Hawk movement: 18" fleet, battle focus,
Scourge gun: assault 3 18" poison
Hawk gun: assault 3 24" s3
additional gear Scourge: Plasma grenades
Additional gear hawks: Plasma grenades, HAYWIRE grenades, Grenade pack
Additional rules Scourge: 6++ power from pain
Additional rules Hawks: Skyleap, Herald of Victory (exarch), intercept fliers
Yea that's incredibly even....
Taken in a shrine those hawks can be BS5 or if facing Imperial knights why not go for WS5 for lol's so you can hit with haywire grenades on 3's after you engage one from 27" out on average (18" move plus 9" assault with fleet, turn 1 any one?). Not bad for a 170 point unit against a 375.
Scourge were ever so slightly worse before and now that margin is blown so wide it's idiotic because that 18" move is insane, now I'd take hawks over any other aspect since they do it all. They kill armor, they sweep objectives, they last turn contest.... it's incredible.
Yeah, Hawks are ridiculously good now, but don't forget the weapons that Scourges can take, which makes them put out a lot of firepower that can be effective against a large variety of targets. Yes, it's more points, but still useful and a different role to Hawks. They're similar, and Hawks probably are better overall, but Scourges still have a place!
How is it a large variety of targets? They get AT weapons which don't synergze at with their shard carbines all while making them more expensive. Actually, as soon as you start throwing At on them they jump to 26 ppm and as a unit become 120 for only 4 weapons while say fire dragons all have AT weapons AND and exarch for that same price. They are optimal in a transport but with battle focus the speed becomes less of an issue their as well lol.
Love my DE, but when you look at units between the two it is insanely out of whack. Hellions 13ppm, jesus, even blood brides are 13 ppmlol.
I used defender guardians all through the last dex. They are basically unchanged, so this still stands. You don't use them like this: you take 3 squads in 3 wave serpents and you "pump n dump" you drop 60 str 4 rending shots at BS4 into any infantry you like, usually they are in cover so their cover becomes yours, you utterly anhilate the target so there is no return fire. The wave serpents block the LOS and always absorb any return fire because they engage (the all but inevitable) secondary threats, those secondary threats are fairly mauled too and then they universally shoot back. Then you saddle up and go elsewhere.
330 points of transports, and 270 points of infantry.
Point for points, DA are better at the pump and dump.
Dire Avengers can do it with 220 points of transports and 260 points of infantry.
Pump and Dump, land 2 units, fire the 3 shots at BS5, and you've got 6" more range.
This means while guardians might of had to run forward to get into range, the DA can fire and then run backwards.
Guardians overwatch for ~10 hits, while dire avengers over-watch for 13.
Avengers also get better Ld (with re-rolls), and better armor.
People will be surprised at how stupidly good that shrine is.
I saw a shrine drop TWO wraith knights turn 1. (6" move, 6" disembark, 6" battle focus, 18" range). 90 BS5 shots + 9 BS4 twin-linked and 9 S6 BS4 shots (averages something like 15 AP2 wounds).
Warp spiders would be my choice if you didn't want to go mech. 6" move +2D6 jump, 6" battle focus, 12" gun range. Averages 31 inches, to the DA 36".
Warp spiders do risk a low jump leaving them out of range, and once they start to flicker when shot at, their movement is fairly gimped the following turn. That said, they are more durable (3+ armor) and can hit a wider range of targets.
On the other hand, Spiders are typically ending a move fairly close to the enemy, and are in trouble of being assaulted. The extra range of the DA might let them stand off better.
Shrines are stupid good for using 700+ points to nearly kill 600? (you need 16 AP2 wounds to kill 2 WK after FnP, depending on averages) Warp Spiders can do similarly well just by wounding the Knights on 3's.
Spiders also don't have to rely on getting first turn in case their transport comes under fire, thanks to Deep Strike.
Spiders can continually make use of fast movement to hit a new foe, whereas Dire Avengers lose out after deployment.
Spiders may end the shooting phase closer to the enemy, but in the assault phase they can move out to roughly the same distance that the DA were firing from.
Spiders assault move also provides better movement for objectives nabbing/denying, even if they jumped in the enemies shooting phase.
What's the chances of shadow spectres being used now i painted mine all ready but now they just seem so outclassed now, do you think FW will update them for the new eldar dex, such as being avaible in aspect host, free exarch powers, 2W exarchs?
hiveof_chimera wrote: What's the chances of shadow spectres being used now i painted mine all ready but now they just seem so outclassed now, do you think FW will update them for the new eldar dex, such as being avaible in aspect host, free exarch powers, 2W exarchs?
Until they fix their gun profile shadow spectres will always be awful. Whoever thought a 1 shot 18" weapon was a good idea needs to stay away from the resin casting fumes. Personally I use mine as warp spiders. The model is to gorgeous to not use and they have similar load outs.
Goldphish wrote: I just don't see a reason to take a Dire Avengers formation though. You're not getting Obj. secured. You're not as good as the other ranged aspects. The only real benefit is the once per game Assault 3 which can either be worthless or amazing, but not nearly as competitive as spiders, hawks, reapers, or dragons. You're paying 13 points for glorified defenders without a weapons platform. T3 with a 4+ isn't going to stand up to much pressure, and a 24" range isn't that great. I feel like if you're taking this formation it's a preference for casual play.
um, and the bs5 on a basic troop, and the rerolling essentially all leadership based tests, and the auto run 6" even if firing, can damage any unit in the game with bladestorm, overwatch at bs2, extra shot for 1 turn for all units in formation, all for a 13 point troop
The auto-run comes from the 500-ish points of Guardians, not from the DA Shrine.
i never said it did. I just stated that the DA get that benefit if taken in the craft world war host in a dire avenger shrine
hiveof_chimera wrote: What's the chances of shadow spectres being used now i painted mine all ready but now they just seem so outclassed now, do you think FW will update them for the new eldar dex, such as being avaible in aspect host, free exarch powers, 2W exarchs?
I know how you feel. I bought 2 warp hunters 2-3 months ago before I realized they had gotten an update in 2013 that made them pretty meh. The new update figured that D weapons was too powerful for non-apoc games, so FW nerfed it to S7. Oh the irony.
With the new dex there is just no reason to field them until FW gives them their D back.
hiveof_chimera wrote: What's the chances of shadow spectres being used now i painted mine all ready but now they just seem so outclassed now, do you think FW will update them for the new eldar dex, such as being avaible in aspect host, free exarch powers, 2W exarchs?
Until they fix their gun profile shadow spectres will always be awful. Whoever thought a 1 shot 18" weapon was a good idea needs to stay away from the resin casting fumes. Personally I use mine as warp spiders. The model is to gorgeous to not use and they have similar load outs.
I've flicked an email to FW regarding the issue, rumour is they listen to their customers
hiveof_chimera wrote: I've flicked an email to FW regarding the issue, rumour is they listen to their customers
Interestingly enough my last ~5 emails I have sent about what I thought about unit X's rules and possible fixes actually have been implemented, to some degree...I doubt it was my specific email but it certainly does appear the writers get some of this information and act on it.
BTW the subjects emailed about; death riders, hades drills, R'Varna exp rules, elysian command squads, and several minor options in death korps lists.
So emailing about spectres might work. They could update IA11 with the info.
hiveof_chimera wrote: I've flicked an email to FW regarding the issue, rumour is they listen to their customers
Interestingly enough my last ~5 emails I have sent about what I thought about unit X's rules and possible fixes actually have been implemented, to some degree...I doubt it was my specific email but it certainly does appear the writers get some of this information and act on it.
BTW the subjects emailed about; death riders, hades drills, R'Varna exp rules, elysian command squads, and several minor options in death korps lists.
So emailing about spectres might work. They could update IA11 with the info.
Excellent, I'm a lot more hopeful than I was, how long before they implemented your changes?
hiveof_chimera wrote: Excellent, I'm a lot more hopeful than I was, how long before they implemented your changes?
I wouldn't call them "my" changes. Some took a month or two others a year (when the new imperial armour was released). I am pretty sure they just keep track of major topics and complaints on their facebook and emails.
Acidian wrote: I bought 2 warp hunters 2-3 months ago before I realized they had gotten an update in 2013 that made them pretty meh. The new update figured that D weapons was too powerful for non-apoc games, so FW nerfed it to S7. Oh the irony.
With the new dex there is just no reason to field them until FW gives them their D back.
With FW, just pick and choose which rules you want to use. The Warp Hunter is a vehicle-mounted D-cannon, so the version with S(D) rules would be a better match for the model.
Also, that Warp Hunter is one sexy tank. I would totally get one or two if I got more of my backlog cleared away!
What do you guys think of the Falcon cloudstke rule. You basically get 3 DS'ing Falcons that dont scatter on arrival. Combined with an autarch for +1 to Res rolls, could be a semi alpha strike idea. Can you load them up with FDs before they drop if they are not dedicated transports for the FDs?
Idea being to drop 3 in, fire their weapons, hopefully survive a turn and then get out the FDs for even more firepower behind enemy lines.
Acidian wrote: I bought 2 warp hunters 2-3 months ago before I realized they had gotten an update in 2013 that made them pretty meh. The new update figured that D weapons was too powerful for non-apoc games, so FW nerfed it to S7. Oh the irony.
With the new dex there is just no reason to field them until FW gives them their D back.
With FW, just pick and choose which rules you want to use. The Warp Hunter is a vehicle-mounted D-cannon, so the version with S(D) rules would be a better match for the model.
Also, that Warp Hunter is one sexy tank. I would totally get one or two if I got more of my backlog cleared away!
yeah, I really love the look of it. I have considered playing with older rules if my opponent would allow it. The problem is that, at least the first version of the rules, has it seriously undercosted. So I would feel bad bringing it unless I upped the price on it.
Ratius wrote: What do you guys think of the Falcon cloudstke rule. You basically get 3 DS'ing Falcons that dont scatter on arrival. Combined with an autarch for +1 to Res rolls, could be a semi alpha strike idea. Can you load them up with FDs before they drop if they are not dedicated transports for the FDs?
Idea being to drop 3 in, fire their weapons, hopefully survive a turn and then get out the FDs for even more firepower behind enemy lines.
You can. And the FDs can disembark upon arrival per the deepstrike rules.
I see a lot of people running warp spiders. There has been some discussion around this already, but is this really a competitive unit? Seems good against high T targets, but that only makes them good against armies that field non-flying MC? The Spinnerete Rifle is worse against armored targets than bikes with scatter lasers, so against heavy vehicle lists they seem useless?
The squads movement is really awsome, but the 12" range on the squads weapons means that you have to get really up close to the stuff you want to shoot at. This makes them an easy target for assault the next turn, or if an opponent shoots at you, there are very few weapons that can't shoot more than 24" and will have no problems hitting a squad of Spiders even if they flicker jump? However, I do see the potential of assaulting a weak WS/S unit so you can hit and run out of combat in the opponents assault phase. Due to T3 though, there are a lot of things you don't want to get into melee with.
Eldar Missiles on reapers seem interesting. If you are taking the formation you have to buy the exarch upgrade anyway, giving you a model that has BS6, reroll to hit against fliers, and ignore jink. So against flyers you have almost guaranteed 2 hits at S7 with no jink cover saves. Against non fliers you still get the 2 shots at S8 AP3 or 2 shots of S4AP4 blast. This unit seems to be a good counter against opponent eldar players that go for bike spam as well.
Overwatch is a NORMAL shooting attack with two exceptions: 1) it happens during the opponent's assault phase 2) it is resolved as 'Snap Fire'. That is all. The key word is 'normal', which means it follows the normal procedure for selecting a unit to shoot with, a target to shoot at, and a weapon to shoot. Etc.
Acidian wrote: I see a lot of people running warp spiders. There has been some discussion around this already, but is this really a competitive unit? Seems good against high T targets, but that only makes them good against armies that field non-flying MC? The Spinnerete Rifle is worse against armored targets than bikes with scatter lasers, so against heavy vehicle lists they seem useless?
Porque no los dos? But also, scatterbikes cost 8 points per model more, so a direct comparison is a little rough. The 10 Spiders cost about as much 7 scatter bikes and do slightly better damage against MEQ and generally better vs TEQ and most MCs. Most vehicles damagable by either squad are in a bad way.
The squads movement is really awsome, but the 12" range on the squads weapons means that you have to get really up close to the stuff you want to shoot at. This makes them an easy target for assault the next turn, or if an opponent shoots at you, there are very few weapons that can't shoot more than 24" and will have no problems hitting a squad of Spiders even if they flicker jump? However, I do see the potential of assaulting a weak WS/S unit so you can hit and run out of combat in the opponents assault phase. Due to T3 though, there are a lot of things you don't want to get into melee with.
Most basic troop anti infantry is around 24". If the Spider shoot from 10" away, run 4" back, and assault move 7" back from there.... that pulls you out of most assault ranges, especially if the enemy tries to shoot you a bit 1st. Most weapons that boast range to continually threaten Spiders would pose equal threat to units of more value, like tanks or those bikes from earlier. The annoyance factor will keep enemy priorities out of whack.
Eldar Missiles on reapers seem interesting. If you are taking the formation you have to buy the exarch upgrade anyway, giving you a model that has BS6, reroll to hit against fliers, and ignore jink. So against flyers you have almost guaranteed 2 hits at S7 with no jink cover saves. Against non fliers you still get the 2 shots at S8 AP3 or 2 shots of S4AP4 blast. This unit seems to be a good counter against opponent eldar players that go for bike spam as well.
Acidian wrote: I see a lot of people running warp spiders. There has been some discussion around this already, but is this really a competitive unit? Seems good against high T targets, but that only makes them good against armies that field non-flying MC? The Spinnerete Rifle is worse against armored targets than bikes with scatter lasers, so against heavy vehicle lists they seem useless?
Porque no los dos? But also, scatterbikes cost 8 points per model more, so a direct comparison is a little rough. The 10 Spiders cost about as much 7 scatter bikes and do slightly better damage against MEQ and generally better vs TEQ and most MCs. Most vehicles damagable by either squad are in a bad way.
The squads movement is really awsome, but the 12" range on the squads weapons means that you have to get really up close to the stuff you want to shoot at. This makes them an easy target for assault the next turn, or if an opponent shoots at you, there are very few weapons that can't shoot more than 24" and will have no problems hitting a squad of Spiders even if they flicker jump? However, I do see the potential of assaulting a weak WS/S unit so you can hit and run out of combat in the opponents assault phase. Due to T3 though, there are a lot of things you don't want to get into melee with.
Most basic troop anti infantry is around 24". If the Spider shoot from 10" away, run 4" back, and assault move 7" back from there.... that pulls you out of most assault ranges, especially if the enemy tries to shoot you a bit 1st. Most weapons that boast range to continually threaten Spiders would pose equal threat to units of more value, like tanks or those bikes from earlier. The annoyance factor will keep enemy priorities out of whack.
Eldar Missiles on reapers seem interesting. If you are taking the formation you have to buy the exarch upgrade anyway, giving you a model that has BS6, reroll to hit against fliers, and ignore jink. So against flyers you have almost guaranteed 2 hits at S7 with no jink cover saves. Against non fliers you still get the 2 shots at S8 AP3 or 2 shots of S4AP4 blast. This unit seems to be a good counter against opponent eldar players that go for bike spam as well.
And Reapers are quite good
Ah, I missed that the unit had Battle Focus , but how are you moving the unit in the assault phase? I like your point about the spiders being so cheap and that there are probably more scary stuff on the table that your opponent will shoot at.
The reapers are good, but the question was more if the 20 points EML was worth taking or not. It looks really good and it's only 12 points more than giving the exarch starshot missiles.
Spiders are still jetpack infantry, so they get a 2d6" move in the assault phase.
So they'll move 2d6+6" in movement, battle focus d6" (6" in warhost) and still shoot, then 2d6" jetpack somewhere. If the enemy tries to shoot them, they can flicker 2d6". Next turn, they'll only move 6" + d6" battle focus + 2d6" assault, but hey. A unit of alive spiders is better than a dead one.
Spiders are awesome on a cluttered field, as odds are good they can find somewhere to hide on the flicker. I have seen them struggle to get out of assault range once they have pulled into gun range. IMO, that's the best way to deal with them.
Interestingly, it looks like they can still flicker even if you do attach an autarch.
Interestingly, it looks like they can still flicker even if you do attach an autarch.
Odd: I don't see 'Flickerjump' listed as a special rule under the description of the Warp Jump Generator itself (p 154), nor do I see it listed under the Warp Spider special rules (p 124). Is it attached (either to Warp Spiders or the generator itself) on some other page? Otherwise, we have an unattached Special Rule, yes?
Interestingly, it looks like they can still flicker even if you do attach an autarch.
Odd: I don't see 'Flickerjump' listed as a special rule under the description of the Warp Jump Generator itself (p 154), nor do I see it listed under the Warp Spider special rules (p 124). Is it attached (either to Warp Spiders or the generator itself) on some other page? Otherwise, we have an unattached Special Rule, yes?
Should be listed on page 124 in the units description.
Ratius wrote: What do you guys think of the Falcon cloudstke rule. You basically get 3 DS'ing Falcons that dont scatter on arrival. Combined with an autarch for +1 to Res rolls, could be a semi alpha strike idea. Can you load them up with FDs before they drop if they are not dedicated transports for the FDs?
Idea being to drop 3 in, fire their weapons, hopefully survive a turn and then get out the FDs for even more firepower behind enemy lines.
Yeah, I've thought about using it too. Essentially one of the Falcons would contain Fire Dragons (dead whatever tank you want) and the others would contain DAs. The Dragons would be part of an Aspect Host with Spiders and Hawks, and there'd be another footslogging DA unit for the Shrine, with Eldrad in tow. Add in one of the Core Detachments and you're done. It comes up to about 2k, but I think it'd be a pretty cool army to use. One of the posters here did bring up the issue of DS-ing 3 Falcons next to each other being actually very difficult in practice purely due to their footprint, but I reckon it'd be something you'd have to test out.
Interestingly, it looks like they can still flicker even if you do attach an autarch.
Odd: I don't see 'Flickerjump' listed as a special rule under the description of the Warp Jump Generator itself (p 154), nor do I see it listed under the Warp Spider special rules (p 124). Is it attached (either to Warp Spiders or the generator itself) on some other page? Otherwise, we have an unattached Special Rule, yes?
Should be listed on page 124 in the units description.
It's attached to the unit of Warp Spiders, but it just says that "a unit with this special rule" may flickerjump, it doesn't say anything along the lines of "a unit entirely composing of models with this special rule", so I would interpret that as them being able to jump even if there's an Autarch attached, but then again I'm not the best at these little intricacies of the rules.
Bharring wrote: Note that DAs lose their defensive training with Eldred attached. Probably doesn't change anything, but that's easy to miss.
3xFalcons will probably do some nasty alpha strikes.
Oh yeah, I did miss that...
Hmmm... That's interesting (and annoying) as I quite liked sticking a Farseer/Eldrad in a unit of DAs with the Shimmershield. I found that, with Fortune, they were quite a good core unit in my battleline. It may be worth putting Eldrad within a Seer Council then.
Bharring wrote: Note that DAs lose their defensive training with Eldred attached. Probably doesn't change anything, but that's easy to miss.
3xFalcons will probably do some nasty alpha strikes.
Oh yeah, I did miss that...
Hmmm... That's interesting (and annoying) as I quite liked sticking a Farseer/Eldrad in a unit of DAs with the Shimmershield. I found that, with Fortune, they were quite a good core unit in my battleline. It may be worth putting Eldrad within a Seer Council then.
If you have a foot seer council, not having eldrad would be a terrible mistake.
I'd still do it. I did it quite often in the old Dex (with a Farseer, never ran Eldred). Quite a lot of fun, but 2x Farseers felt a bit deathstar-y, which wasn't as fun.
The Shadow wrote: Yeah, I've thought about using it too. Essentially one of the Falcons would contain Fire Dragons (dead whatever tank you want) and the others would contain DAs. The Dragons would be part of an Aspect Host with Spiders and Hawks, and there'd be another footslogging DA unit for the Shrine, with Eldrad in tow. Add in one of the Core Detachments and you're done. It comes up to about 2k, but I think it'd be a pretty cool army to use. One of the posters here did bring up the issue of DS-ing 3 Falcons next to each other being actually very difficult in practice purely due to their footprint, but I reckon it'd be something you'd have to test out.
Wouldn't a Ghostwalk Matrix let them DS into cover? That would make them easier to DS in, despite their size.
Or, would that trigger a DS Mishap?
Yeah, I've thought about using it too. Essentially one of the Falcons would contain Fire Dragons (dead whatever tank you want) and the others would contain DAs. The Dragons would be part of an Aspect Host with Spiders and Hawks, and there'd be another footslogging DA unit for the Shrine, with Eldrad in tow. Add in one of the Core Detachments and you're done. It comes up to about 2k, but I think it'd be a pretty cool army to use. One of the posters here did bring up the issue of DS-ing 3 Falcons next to each other being actually very difficult in practice purely due to their footprint, but I reckon it'd be something you'd have to test out.
True, Im going to try it out and see how it plays. The 4" proximity rule under CS does give you a small amount of leeway though (as opposed to normal DS rules where you have to clump up, awaiting a pieplate hit).
Am I right in thinking when the FDs disembark they can only snapshot as they will have counted as moving more than 12" under the DS rules? Or was that 6th ed
Vehicles are considered to have moved Combat Speed (6"). Units may disembark during the movement phase in which they arrive via Deep Strike. During the shooting phase, Eldar may still use Battle Focus and fire at normal BS. If you choose to not disembark, a fast skimmer can still make an 18" Flat Out move.
The Shadow wrote: Yeah, I've thought about using it too. Essentially one of the Falcons would contain Fire Dragons (dead whatever tank you want) and the others would contain DAs. The Dragons would be part of an Aspect Host with Spiders and Hawks, and there'd be another footslogging DA unit for the Shrine, with Eldrad in tow. Add in one of the Core Detachments and you're done. It comes up to about 2k, but I think it'd be a pretty cool army to use. One of the posters here did bring up the issue of DS-ing 3 Falcons next to each other being actually very difficult in practice purely due to their footprint, but I reckon it'd be something you'd have to test out.
Wouldn't a Ghostwalk Matrix let them DS into cover? That would make them easier to DS in, despite their size.
Or, would that trigger a DS Mishap?
I've not played in a while, but as far as I can remember, deep striking into cover is absolutely fine (though I guess, considering the fact the vehicles, which are skimmers, are ending their move in terrain they'll need to take a Dangerous Terrain test). I think the issue here is other models and impassable terrain. And even if a Ghostwalk Matrix did help in anyway, it's an expensive upgrade that I don't think I'd want to take.
The Shadow wrote: Yeah, I've thought about using it too. Essentially one of the Falcons would contain Fire Dragons (dead whatever tank you want) and the others would contain DAs. The Dragons would be part of an Aspect Host with Spiders and Hawks, and there'd be another footslogging DA unit for the Shrine, with Eldrad in tow. Add in one of the Core Detachments and you're done. It comes up to about 2k, but I think it'd be a pretty cool army to use. One of the posters here did bring up the issue of DS-ing 3 Falcons next to each other being actually very difficult in practice purely due to their footprint, but I reckon it'd be something you'd have to test out.
Wouldn't a Ghostwalk Matrix let them DS into cover? That would make them easier to DS in, despite their size.
Or, would that trigger a DS Mishap?
I've not played in a while, but as far as I can remember, deep striking into cover is absolutely fine (though I guess, considering the fact the vehicles, which are skimmers, are ending their move in terrain they'll need to take a Dangerous Terrain test). I think the issue here is other models and impassable terrain. And even if a Ghostwalk Matrix did help in anyway, it's an expensive upgrade that I don't think I'd want to take.
Deepstriking into terrain triggers a dangerous terrain test. Ghostwalk matrix allows the falcons to automatically pass the test. I consider Ghostwalk Matrices to be indispensable upgrades. It allows you to exploit ruins at no risk of immobilization.
I think it'll come down to Ghostwalk or Holo, this edition. Either a 5++ in the open or easier to get terrain cover. Jink is good, but not jinking is better.
I'm not sold on the ghostwalk matrices myself. I usually get my cover saves by sticking behind the cover since standing in it doesn't give an automatic cover save to vehicles anyway. I find you often need to have all of the cover in front of you to get the 25% covered minimum. I only seem to take maybe one or two dangerous terrain checks per game with my dark eldar and I often run 10ish vehicles with that army so I don't think I'd be willing to spend 60-100 points on an upgrade just to stop a 1/6 chance of one vehicle getting stuck. "Leave them, they're goners" I say.
Paying 10 points to eliminate a dice roll when you want a vehicle in terrain for an objective, a closer disembark move with your unit inside, or even just keeping a mobile vehicle is well worth the few points.
I never leave home without ghostwalk matrices. Not in the last book and I won't in this book either (provided I take any vehicles now).
Even in the last codex I preferred ghost walk to holo fields, but I was prob in the minority there when you look at a lot of the GT lists. Now I think that question is a lot easier.
The falcon deep strike will be a mixed bag. It's very expensive and it isn't like your opponent won't know what's about to happen. The chances of getting that deep strike where all the units + 3 falcons get to take advantage of it is pretty low.
I always run the more boys before more toys approach. Getting a vehicle stuck on dangerous terrain could end up losing me a game (although like I said, I rarely have need to actually take the roll in the first place), but saving the 10 points per vehicle is also the cost of an aspect squad or another windrider guardian squad (depending on how many vehicles you guys are running these on). Not having that extra squad could also cost me the game because I would lose the extra output from another unit dealing damage to my opponent in addition to the board control they offer.
As opposed to getting the most from a unit you have already, and its passengers in this case.
[Appended:]
For deploying Scorpions into cover, the transport can be, too.
And, if space is short, you get a lot more options when deploying, as you get to hide a facing or two.
Eldar skimmers have turrets though, so an Immobilised isn't that big a problem.
Perhaps it's because I'm a little riskier in playstyle, but I really think that Holo Fields are a no-brainer over Ghostwalk. Even if you do get them in cover, a lot of the time that's going to be a 5+ anyway and then considering you get Holo Fields against things with Ignore Cover, and can always risk the 1/6 chance of Immobilisation (which may not even matter that much depending on the tank and the situation) if you really think you need a 4+ from ruins or something. And Holo Fields are 10 points cheaper, which does add up if you're planning on taking multiple vehicles.
I can see the advantage of having one, maybe two, of the three falcons upgraded to Ghostwalk so you can more effectively deep strike them in more areas.
Do you guys think an aspect formation with only minimum squads of Dark Reapers could be good?
So you have 6 reapers with 6x BS5, S8, Ignore Jink, AP3 and reroll to hit on flyers. Against bike lists they have 12 shots at S5 with AP3 that can't be jinked against.
Then you have 3 exarchs with 6x EML shots at BS6 Ignore Jink and reroll to hit on flyers. From there you can pick between 6x Blast at S4 AP4, 6x S7 skyfire shots that is not going to miss and can't be jink saved, or 6x S8 AP3 shots which opposing bikes can't jink out of.
The cost is 378 points, so I am unsure if they are worth it. Could spare 36 points by dropping EMLs and getting only the starshot missile upgrades on the exarchs.
The Shadow wrote: Perhaps it's because I'm a little riskier in playstyle, but I really think that Holo Fields are a no-brainer over Ghostwalk. Even if you do get them in cover, a lot of the time that's going to be a 5+ anyway and then considering you get Holo Fields against things with Ignore Cover, and can always risk the 1/6 chance of Immobilisation (which may not even matter that much depending on the tank and the situation) if you really think you need a 4+ from ruins or something. And Holo Fields are 10 points cheaper, which does add up if you're planning on taking multiple vehicles.
I can see the advantage of having one, maybe two, of the three falcons upgraded to Ghostwalk so you can more effectively deep strike them in more areas.
Ghost Walker Matrix requires all models in the squadron to take the upgrade, and falcons only deep strike if you take 3.
I could go with ghost walker and vectored engines.
You can land anywhere, face backwards to disembark 6" at the enemy, battle focus 6 more inches. Then shoot with the top turrents and vector engine to turn the squishy rear armor 10 away from the enemy.
It's expensive, but you can really bring a lot of hurt to the enemy, and still have the falcons and a decent stand off range.
Guys whats your views via math hammer of shuirken cannons VS scatterlasers this release?
Say taking a 3 man War Walker unit maxed with both loadsouts.
Obviously scats have 12" more range and an extra shot but does bladestorm outweigh this?
Has/can anyone run a math hammer VS TEQ/MEQ etc?
Ratius wrote: Guys whats your views via math hammer of shuirken cannons VS scatterlasers this release?
Say taking a 3 man War Walker unit maxed with both loadsouts.
Obviously scats have 12" more range and an extra shot but does bladestorm outweigh this?
Has/can anyone run a math hammer VS TEQ/MEQ etc?
I don't think there will be a universally better choice because a lot of the decision will be affected by other variables. What is your local meta, what units do you usually have a tough time against, what are your target priorities for the weapons, etc.
I think I'm generally more in favor of the scatter laser on my jetbikes because of the increased range (and increased survivability as a result) and because of the extra shot for knocking out low armor values. If you want better odds for facing riptides, wraithknights, or c'tan, then I'd be more inclined to recommend the shuriken cannon. Personally, I'd run different options on the warwalkers because those are choices you can already make for the jetbikes, so let the warwalkers take something different like the EMLimo. Plus, the shuriken cannon bikes can get shred if you take the formation as a further bonus to them.
Just a note - formation shred only applies for the windrider host. Warwalkers can't be bought in said formation, but they can get preferred enemy within 12" of a guardian unit in their respective formation. Scatters and Shurikens both benefit from the rerolling 1's, but it's a wash. I personally will only take scatters for both the shot & range. Bladestorm is mitigated when an opponent is in even 5+ area terrain, so it's never a big deal for me.
Plus, I find games are won in the movement phase. Having 36" vs 24" is just too good to even consider the alternative.
Rypher wrote: Just a note - formation shred only applies for the windrider host. Warwalkers can't be bought in said formation, but they can get preferred enemy within 12" of a guardian unit in their respective formation. Scatters and Shurikens both benefit from the rerolling 1's, but it's a wash. I personally will only take scatters for both the shot & range. Bladestorm is mitigated when an opponent is in even 5+ area terrain, so it's never a big deal for me.
Plus, I find games are won in the movement phase. Having 36" vs 24" is just too good to even consider the alternative.
I would take both. You won't be able to keep everything at 36", some of the bikes are going to need to get closer, or are going to get cornered.
Having a little bit of blade storm along with the rest of the bikes are longer range isn't a bad thing.
I think I'll do a 2:1 mix in the wind riders (2 scatter units, 1 shur-cannon unit) and a 1:1 mix in other detachments.
I would take both. You won't be able to keep everything at 36", some of the bikes are going to need to get closer, or are going to get cornered.
Having a little bit of blade storm along with the rest of the bikes are longer range isn't a bad thing.
I think I'll do a 2:1 mix in the wind riders (2 scatter units, 1 shur-cannon unit) and a 1:1 mix in other detachments.
It does depend on what you want the list to do or what you find lacking. I still think scatters are the superior option, especially with placement. My current lists only run 3x3 jetbikes, all with scatters. They're there for objectives late game and adding some firepower to my army. But I have more than enough other close range threats that long range scatter bikes are all I need.
Plus, I don't think the role of jetbikes have changed as much as people make it out to be, in that bikes are still objective grabbers. Having scatter lasers now just allows them to contribute a little more to the battle. I will happily face an opponent who deploys 27+ jetbikes on me (which I did the other day and wound up tabling him).
Ratius wrote:Guys whats your views via math hammer of shuirken cannons VS scatterlasers this release? Say taking a 3 man War Walker unit maxed with both loadsouts. Obviously scats have 12" more range and an extra shot but does bladestorm outweigh this? Has/can anyone run a math hammer VS TEQ/MEQ etc?
I would take both. You won't be able to keep everything at 36", some of the bikes are going to need to get closer, or are going to get cornered. Having a little bit of blade storm along with the rest of the bikes are longer range isn't a bad thing. I think I'll do a 2:1 mix in the wind riders (2 scatter units, 1 shur-cannon unit) and a 1:1 mix in other detachments.
It does depend on what you want the list to do or what you find lacking. I still think scatters are the superior option, especially with placement. My current lists only run 3x3 jetbikes, all with scatters. They're there for objectives late game and adding some firepower to my army. But I have more than enough other close range threats that long range scatter bikes are all I need.
Plus, I don't think the role of jetbikes have changed as much as people make it out to be, in that bikes are still objective grabbers. Having scatter lasers now just allows them to contribute a little more to the battle. I will happily face an opponent who deploys 27+ jetbikes on me (which I did the other day and wound up tabling him).
I actually entirely agree. It is not hard to table a ~30 scat pack army if you have a guaranteed alpha strike list. Scat pack is just another rock, hammer, scissor build that either gets tabled or tables the opponent.
This might be a little late, but I have been wracking my brains this week and can't really find a good answer.
I am most likely facing a 5 flyrant list tomorrow, although the opponent could also bring 2-3 flyrants and a barbed hierodule, at 1850 points.
I am definitely bringing a Crimson Death formation, but this is not enough if I am fighting a 5 flyrant list.
I want to bring a list that is also all comers, as I could face this same opponent in a tournament setting, but then I would be facing lots of other opponents as well.
So the options I have looked at are these:
Bastion with Dark Reapers. I think 6 reapers + exarch would be the max I could put in this and hope to get all shots off at (3 fire points facing) a flyrant. I have the option of either going with an icarus cannon for 35 points which the exarch will man so I get 2 S9 shots with skyfire at BS5 and reroll against flying. The whole unit can ignore jink. This would be great when fighting space marines as well, since if I get to intercept with the icarus, I can use the exarchs reaper launcher in the next round. Since I have hte Crimson Death formation, the other option is to bring the Comms Relay, which is 20 points and lets me reroll reserces on my Crimson Hunters which is really good. Quad Gun is not an option because it breaks with the units theme of AP3+ (so flyrant can´t take any saes). It is possible to bring an Autarch for bonus to reserve rolls, but I feel like the Autarch brings nothing else to the list.
Next option is to bring 3 squads of 3 Dark Reapers and no bastion. (Or I could bring bastion for 1 squad) I would be running 3 EML on the exarchs. The problem with these is flyrant still gets +3 armor save and 1 flyrant can take out 1 unit of 3 reapers in one round of shooting. So if he goes first he could (assuming he gets in range) use 3 flyrants to take out ALL my dark reapers and then still have 2 left over to fire at other things. I could put them in Wave Serpents, which should allow them to survive long enough for 1 round of shooting. Once they are out though, they will be dead in the next turn. The nice thing about this is getting the formation bonus which is useful against all other lists, but useless against flyers.
In an all comers list I would usually run a unit with Wraith Guard with D-Scythes, but I could downgrade to Wraithcannons and with guide have 5-6 rerollable snap shots at strength D. These would also be good against hierodule, but not as strong as the D-Scythes in an all comers setting.
I could be really boring and bring 3 wraith knights. He can't do much damage to them, and 6 shots (some with guide or prescience) would be 1-2 SD hits each round.
40 bikes is also an option, but I don't have 40 bikes, nor do I want to play that kind of list. So I am running with 9-12 bikes.
You want a Wall of Martyrs bunker, rather than a bastion (Stronghold Assault, p. 26). Take an Ammunition Dump and get to re-roll your 1's. So long as you take them [edit: your Dark Reapers] in the Aspect Host formation, you have poor-man's twin-linking (BS5 and re-rolling 1's).
If you're not playing unbound, then you have to take one of the core formations in order to unlock multiple Wraith Knights. Not sure it's worth it. Definitely take one though! Spend those ~600 points on other stuff, like a squadron of War Walkers with Scatter Lasers (they'll do work, and they're cheap, relatively speaking).
Also: Is your opponent taking 5 Flyrants because you asked him to, or because he thinks he can win? If he thinks he can win, is it because he thinks he'll table you, or are you playing missions that don't punish flyer-heavy lists?
DCannon4Life wrote: You want a Wall of Martyrs bunker, rather than a bastion (Stronghold Assault, p. 26). Take an Ammunition Dump and get to re-roll your 1's. So long as you take them [edit: your Dark Reapers] in the Aspect Host formation, you have poor-man's twin-linking (BS5 and re-rolling 1's).
If you're not playing unbound, then you have to take one of the core formations in order to unlock multiple Wraith Knights. Not sure it's worth it. Definitely take one though! Spend those ~600 points on other stuff, like a squadron of War Walkers with Scatter Lasers (they'll do work, and they're cheap, relatively speaking).
Also: Is your opponent taking 5 Flyrants because you asked him to, or because he thinks he can win? If he thinks he can win, is it because he thinks he'll table you, or are you playing missions that don't punish flyer-heavy lists?
Good luck!
The Dark Reapers don't need pseudo twin-link against flyrants, as they can reroll to hit against swooping and zooming, and they have to fire snap shots anyway. For all comers that could be good though, but farseer can also prescience/guide the unit if it's really needed. What is the advantage of the Wall of Martyr over a bastion (I have the Stronghold Assault at work, but not here at home.)?
We are not playing unbound. To bring more WKs I would run a windrider host which is 532 points, then you can squeeze inn 930 points for 3 WK and still have points left over for crimson hunters. Extremely cheesy though, and lacks volume of fire.
He is bringing 5 Flyrants because he has been losing a lot lately (I can't remember seeing him win a match in a long time, as people have gotten so good at countering his list), and there is also on guy in our meta with a 40 bike eldar list, so he wanted to have a fight against an eldar player to see how 5 flyrants will work. We will not be fighting maelstrom of war, but he will have to land his flyrants to hold objectives.
Okapi wrote: Do you really need a fortification though? Just stick them in a ruin, add a Spiritseer and conceal them; instant 2+ cover (and/or 2+ armour).
I don't need a fortification no, and dropping the bastion makes it easier to go for the formation bonus. However, the only other targets on the table in the first turn are a WK, which is best ignored, or bikes. So if I was him, I would fly the flyrants down to the reapers and hit them first. Even with a 2+ armor save, 5 flyrants can kill 8 reapers in one round of shooting on average, and that also ment I spent 70 points on a spiritseer to get it, which is 5 points away from a bareboned bastion. Bastion has the added bonus of being able to have an icarus lascannon that gets one extra shot with exarch, or the comms that can help bring in the crimson hunters in turn 2.
In case it is of interest or use to someone else, I just finished the 5 flyrant fight. This is the list I used, it is meant to be a 'take all comers' list which can also handle 5 flyrants, without resorting to bs like 3WK or 40 Bikes. This is why I have more bikes than I would like against a Mawloc heavy list, and the very expensive D-Scythes that will have to be used as objective campers in this game.
My list @ 1850: HQ: Farseer w/spear + stone Troops: 6 scat bikes (Runs with Farseer) + 3 scatbikes + 3 scatbikes Elites: 5 Wraith Guard w/D-Scythes + ScatSerpent Heavy Suppprt: 6 Dark Reapers w/Exarch + 6 Starshot (these are put in the following bunker) Lord Of War: Wraithknight w/Heavy Wraithcannons + 1 Scatter Laser Fortification: Martyrs Bunker (Thank you DCannon4Life) w/Ammo Store + Comms Relay Formation: Crimson Death
Battle report:
Spoiler:
[Deployment] I won the roll to start. Deployed with Bunker (next to difficult terrain which has an objective) in the middle, Knight & Serpent right next to it. All are hard or impossible for Tyrants to damage. Opponent deployed all Tyrants near a venomthrope in area terrain, so they had a 2+ cover save.
[Round 1] -Knight hits a hive tyrant, rolls a 6, one Tyrant is dead. +Opponent moves his remaining 4 tyrants off the table and into ongoing reserves.
[Round 2] -One Crimson Hunter, 6 bike unit + farseer, and 3 bike unit make it from reserves. I chose not to reroll these as I want Hunters to come inn after his Tyrants. All bikes are put on table edge with 2" coherency in preparation of Mawloc AP2 S6 Ignore Cover Large Blasts. -Farseer suffers perils from the warp and wounds himself. My whole army puts 3 wounds into the venomthrope. +Opponent flies his flyrants so 2 are in range of Crimson Hunter, 2 are in range of Serpent. 2 Mawlocs arrive from reserve. +Crimson hunter jinks and takes 2 wounds. Serpent jinks and takes 1 wound. Mawloc destroys unit of 3 bikes and is deployed, Second Mawloc mishaps and is lost to the warp (went of the table).
[Round 3] -All Crimson Hunters arrive. Last bike Squad arrives and is also put 2" spaced on table edge. -Farseer Suffers Perils of the warp again (!), 6bike squad can reroll hits and armor saves. 1 Hive Tyrant saves 8 wounds from Crimson Hunters through jink and FNP. Second Tyrant takes 2 wounds but does not jink, no grounding. +Opponent gets last Mawloc in. Moves hive tyrants so they each face one Crimson Hunter. +One tyrant suffers Perils, and is grounded, also fails to kill the 1 wound Crimson Hunter. Jinkflyrant does nothing useful. One tyrant does no damage against it's Hunter. One tyrant does 1 wound against a Hunter. Arriving Mawloc kills last squad of 3 bikes, second mawloc burrows into ongoing reserves.
[Round 4] -I move my 6 bikes onto the top of the bunker, so the Mawloc in reserve could not deep strike them. We didn't check the rules on this, but the bunker has 2 elevations, so should in theory not be deep strikeable (?). He argued for me taking dangerous terrain tests, but I am still not certain about this since battlements are not suppose to be difficult terrain? Serpent is now going towards the 4 point objective. -Put my knight into charging distance from grounded flyrant. I only use my scatter on him, and manage to roll a 6 to hit on other flyrant, but a 1 on the D-table. Flyrant dies in the resulting charge. The flyrant with 1 wound is killed by the Dark Reapers in bunker. Rest of army manages 2 wounds on 1 tyrant. 2 Flyrants and 2 mawlocs are now left (1 in reserve). +Opponent Mawloc arrives from reserves and runs towards objective (no bikes he can kill so...). Second Mawloc fails Synapse and is enraged. One tyrant manages to get my serpent in back armor, and kills it. D-Scythe guardians evacuate towards the enraged Mawloc (which is also holding a 1 point objective and linebreaker). Second tyrant does nothing but force my CH to jink. +Due to enraged Mawloc now being in range of D-Scythes to charge them, he has to, and is then killed due to infinite D3 wounds on overwatch.
[Round 5] -Bikes are now moved towards the 4 point objective, but will have to turbo boost to get there, so no shooting for them. Dark Reapers disembark to capture objective right next to bunker, but due to difficult terrain and rolling snake eyes, they manage 1 inch from bunker which is 1mm from holding the objective, this was pretty bad. -Bad luck continued with farseer killing himself with a 3rd perils of the warp (each time due to rerolls), but bikes now have Fortune and holding a 4 point objective. -Knight manages to charge the last mawloc which is contesting a 3 point objective. -D-Scythes now holding a 1 point objective. -Second to last Flyrant is shot down by reaper and CH fire. Last Flyrant is wounded, and then grounded. +Opponent realizes that he has 1 hive tyrant left, not much troops to speak off, and concedes the game.
Conclusion: In a tournament setting, 5 hive tyrants is crazy good, and I don't think most people who make 'all comers' list do so and plan for 5 hive tyrants. However, I do think some people would bring 40+ bikes to a tournament or 3+ wraithknights, which are both 'all comers' and also really good against flyrant spam. 5 Flyrants can take out 15 bikes in one turn, but Mawlocs can eat more than that, so bike lists "could" do bad. However, against a 3WK list the flyrants can do on average 2 wounds on one WK, and mawlocs do 0.15 wounds. All in all I think my list is pretty strong without having to go off the deep end with Bikes, WKs and deepstriking Wraithguard.
Special mention to the Crimson Hunter formation. I also don't this formation getting much use, the rerollable 4+ jink save is crazy good, add vector dancer so you might not even need to jink, they reroll hits and wounds against other flyers and FMC, and they have S8 Lance against AV13+ vehicles. 2 good counters against bike spam lists are Flyrants spam and Helldrake spam. Both can be partially mitigated by adding a Crimson Hunter formation. They don't just kill enemy flyers, or force them to jink, but they also force enemy flyers to focus on them. Next month we might be seeing Command Land Raiders as possible counter to bikes, and then the 6x S8 Lance might come in handy.
Possible Changes for future matches:
Spoiler:
Icarus Cannon on Bunker: [Pro] Exarch gives this +1 Shot, reroll to hit, and can't be jinked against. So good. Way better against flyrants than EML due to S9 AP2. Can be used by exarch in opponents round, then exarch can fire reaper launcher in his own round. Intercept can be used against ground targets or deepstriking units, but is especially good against vehicles entering from reserve as it will likely cause a penetrating hit and a crew shaken result before it can even fire it's first salvo. S9 is great against AV13+ units compared to S8 on reaper launcher, even if you don't get to intercept/skyfire.
[Con] 35 Points Lose Comms Relay 2 Hive tyrants can kill 1 gun, likely when there are few other viable targets on the table.
Autarch: [Pro] Makes it a lot easier to pick Icarus Cannon. +1 OR -1 is much better than what Comms Relay give. Great when you have AT LEAST 440points of units in reserve.
[Con] Expensive unit if you are already taking Farseer. If taken as the only HQ, then it lacks the utility of the Farseer. Lacks Eternal warrior, and can be insta killed by S6 (S8). Most useful weapons requires him to be close range, otherwise he just camps in the bunker with an over priced Reaper Launcher or something.
Aspect Warrior Formation: [Pro] Already bought 6 reapers, easy to make this into 2 squads. Gives +1 BS, fearless, and some other goodies. Banshees, Warp Spiders and Swooping Hawks are all awesome looking units, which is important.
[Con] Can only have 1 unit in a bunker, and only 1 bunker. Second or third squad has to rely on cover and armor with their pitiful T3. Ammo Store kinda makes up for lack of +1BS. (again thanks to DCannon4Lyfe) 3rd unit in the formation comes at the cost of Crimson Hunters or D-Scythe Guardians in Serpent. Most likely the D-Scythes have to go.
You're welcome! One thing about the Icarus; it can only be fired if you're out of the bunker. That puts the Dark Reapers at greater risk. Might still be worth it as long as you still have something in the bunker.
I had heard that they could fire from inside the building in this edition, so I asked Pietre if he could so kind as to explain the rules for me. Much thanks!
pretre wrote:"Gun Emplacement Upgrades
If a gun emplacement is taken as an upgrade for a building and placed upon the building’s battlements (see below), then it counts as an additionalemplaced weapon on the building instead of a gun emplacement."
From the main rulebook.
The Bastion's Icarus is placed on the battlements.
"If a building is occupied, an embarked model can choose to fire one
of the emplaced weapons. If the building has more than one emplaced
weapon, each can be fired by a different embarked model."
So the reapers inside could fire the Icarus.
So the reapers can fire the Icarus from inside the building.
What are your thoughts on taking the same configuration (Dark Reaper exarc firing Icarus Cannon), but from an Aegis Defense Line instead of Bastion. I'm looking it on a friendly enviroment, local tourney at most, so I don't expect lots of Flyrants spam
The Aegis DL has no occupancy limit, but only provides a cover save. Vehicles get to use it, and it can be shaped as required.
A bunker or bastion have to get attacked, not the occupants, so are much safer (against most things). They're AV14 IIRC, which might cause issues.
I don't like the aegis defense line for the reapers, because I can usually get a 4+ or 5+ cover save from terrain if I need it, for free. They have an armor save at 3+ which is better than what the aegis can give. The largest weakness of the Dark Reapers is their toughness of 3, so bolters wound them on 3+ and anything stronger than a bolter will wound on a 2+.
So running 3 reapers it's probably better to put them in terrain cover somewhere. If running more than 3 reapers then you are starting to put a lot of points into the unit, and I think its' better to have a bunker to protect them. The value per point of the bunker increases the more models you have inside it.
Dark Reapers might be the best anti-bike unit in the game, and bikes can only glance AV12, so an AV14 bunker is awsome. I was fighting hive tyrants, and they are also S6, so they can't do anything against the bunker either.
The exarch can fire any weapon in the game and give it an extra shot, making the icarus perfect. Exarched Icarus is 2 shots at S9, AP2, Ignore Jink, Skyfire, Intercept, BS5/6, and reroll to hit against flyers (and sometimes other things). If he fires intercept, then he can fire his own weapon in the proceeding shooting face as well.
Bunker vs Bastion. Bastion has 360 degrees fire points (kinda depends on how you glued it together), but at certain sides you might only be able to fire 2-4 reapers. The bunker can have 8 models firing out it's front, but you have to be more careful with placement.
Edit: if you have a wraithknight, the bastion and bunker can provide it with a 4+ cover save, not so easy with the ADL.
But, with the Exarch using the Icarus, the rest of the squad have to fire at the same unit, correct? You aren't getting split fire from anything? Do you not find this is a waste, especially with such a big unit, and that you'd be better off having the Reapers fire at something else? (Maybe not in your above match, but in general)
Cover saves are good against AP# weapons. Dark Reapers die quite quickly against AP3 weapons, and an ADL gives them a chance to save.
If there is an IC with the squad, that can fire the weapon, leaving the DRs to us their weapons. I cannot thing which IC, but some of the Phoenix Lords could be good.
Hiding a WK or similar behind a building is indeed a nice bonus over an ADL.
The Shadow wrote: But, with the Exarch using the Icarus, the rest of the squad have to fire at the same unit, correct? You aren't getting split fire from anything? Do you not find this is a waste, especially with such a big unit, and that you'd be better off having the Reapers fire at something else? (Maybe not in your above match, but in general)
I would see this more as a problem if I wanted to use the Quadgun. The Quadgun already has twin-linked, so doesn't need reroll to hit, it 's AP4 so it can't pen what the rest of the reapers can pen, and +1 shot makes it 25% more effective (while icarus is made 100% more effective). So if you are going to use an IC to run a gun, it should be the quad. The whole point of the Icarus is to abuse the extra shot, ignore jink, reroll to hit against flyers (and land raiders/wave serpents going flat out with high threat cargo) from the Reaper Exarch.
In stead of looking at the Icarus as a sepparate entity, look at it more like buying a 35 point gun upgrade for your exarch that gives him S9 and AP2 Skyfire Intercept, in stead of S8 and AP3. I don't think there are many situations you would feel a need to split fire. If you are not rolling with Crimson Hunters, then this is the best AA unit eldar has, so you want the whole squad firing at the enemy flyer(s) anyway. If there are no flyers on the table, then they will usually be targeting AV12+ vehicles, icarus just does all that better. There might be a point where you want to use the S5 shots to get more volume of fire (like against eldar bikes), and then the Icarus would be wasted a turn.
However, you do get pseudo splitfire from intercept. As long as the enemy rolls reservers every round you can use the intercept function, then the exarch can fire his regular weapon in the procing turn at whatever he wants. It does mean you have to pay 8 points extra for starshot missiles though.
I do agree that it can be bad to have too big a unit having to fire at the same thing (assuming they don't have to split fire the whole match like I did over), so going 8 reapers in the bunker is probably bad. I would still go like 5-6 (incl exarch) reapers though.
As for cover saves, I don't think I have been in many matches where there were no ruins on the table to provide a 4+ cover save for free. I agree cover save is better than armor save, I just don't see the point of paying 50 points for it when there should always be some +4 or +5 cover on the table to use. I rather pay 55 points and have AV14 to protect them in stead. Since this is also my counter to eldar bike spam, then volume of fire is the problem, not AP3+, and a bunker counters that.
Acidian wrote: The exarch can fire any weapon in the game and give it an extra shot, making the icarus perfect. Exarched Icarus is 2 shots at S9, AP2, Ignore Jink, Skyfire, Intercept, BS5/6, and reroll to hit against flyers (and sometimes other things). If he fires intercept, then he can fire his own weapon in the proceeding shooting face as well.
How is Fast Shot worded? (My book is at home.) I can see some people arguing that the Las cannon is not "his" gun if Fast Shot only works on "his" gun.
Everyone lamenting over skyhammer, but I am just sad that my 3 crimson hunters were finally playable in the new eldar codex, and now they are bad again. That lasted for 3 months.
I mean, you could still use them, but you either build your list around trying to take out the new and improved stalkers in round 1 (impossible to do if you are also trying to also survive the round 1 skyhammer) or you have to gamble on deploying on the short table edge so they can come in without being intercepted.
Acidian wrote: Everyone lamenting over skyhammer, but I am just sad that my 3 crimson hunters were finally playable in the new eldar codex, and now they are bad again. That lasted for 3 months.
I mean, you could still use them, but you either build your list around trying to take out the new and improved stalkers in round 1 (impossible to do if you are also trying to also survive the round 1 skyhammer) or you have to gamble on deploying on the short table edge so they can come in without being intercepted.
You only have to kill a single stalker to get rid of ignore cover, the unit needs to be a full 3 stalkers to keep ignore cover. This isn't that hard when the stalker needs to deploy in LoS of the entire board or you can bring your crimson hunters on without getting intercepted. The range is also only 48". With vector dancer crimson hunters can actually float just outside range unless the stalker is deployed centrally.
Crimson death also mixes extremely well with reserves based lists. Which means for CWE an autarch and comms relay for either a 35/36 chance if you want it on or a 75% chance to keep it off the table until you can deal with a single AV12 vehicle.
A single crimson hunter also mixes well with a void shield generator as it can vector dancer in range all game. A full unit of 3 stalkers will not take down 3 shields on average.
Acidian wrote: Everyone lamenting over skyhammer, but I am just sad that my 3 crimson hunters were finally playable in the new eldar codex, and now they are bad again. That lasted for 3 months.
I mean, you could still use them, but you either build your list around trying to take out the new and improved stalkers in round 1 (impossible to do if you are also trying to also survive the round 1 skyhammer) or you have to gamble on deploying on the short table edge so they can come in without being intercepted.
You only have to kill a single stalker to get rid of ignore cover, the unit needs to be a full 3 stalkers to keep ignore cover. This isn't that hard when the stalker needs to deploy in LoS of the entire board or you can bring your crimson hunters on without getting intercepted. The range is also only 48". With vector dancer crimson hunters can actually float just outside range unless the stalker is deployed centrally.
Crimson death also mixes extremely well with reserves based lists. Which means for CWE an autarch and comms relay for either a 35/36 chance if you want it on or a 75% chance to keep it off the table until you can deal with a single AV12 vehicle.
A single crimson hunter also mixes well with a void shield generator as it can vector dancer in range all game. A full unit of 3 stalkers will not take down 3 shields on average.
The players I know deplay their stalkers so they have 4+ or 5+ cover. They also deploy them so they can usually cover the entire map. As I wrote in my post though, if you are lucky and are deploying on the shorts side of the table (ie, Hammer and Andvil), then you can get the crimsons in without worrying about intercept. Because if the opposing player wants to controll the whole board, he will have to drive the stalkers down towards your edge, which will most like take it out of cover and make it easier to kill. Vanguard strike can have a little bit of safe area in the corner, depending on how far up the long edge he deploys his stalker, but probably not enough space to put 3 crimson hunters in.
I am fully aware that you only need to kill 1 stalker. However, I don't think you realize how hard it is to kill an AV12 tank in round one from the front with 4+ cover. (If you are lucky, there would only be 5+ cover available, but lets assume we are not lucky).
Requirements to kill AV12 on average at 4+ cover.
S8 Shots at BS5: 15
So you need at least 13 Dark Reapers with 2 exarchs. However, if you put the reapers in two bastions with reroll ammo storage and two icarus (means no comms relay :( ) then you only need 10 Reapers with 2 exarchs manning the icarus, which is handy because you don't have more firepoints than for 8 reapers anyway.
So here you are paying 610 points to take out one stalker in turn 1, and that's before adding a required 3rd aspect warrior group and maybe void shield generators.
S8 Shots at BS4: 18
Alternatively you can go for 6 falcons with Pulse lasers and Bright lance. Or 18 Vypers, hah.
S9 Shots at BS4: 11
So have fun bringing 9 Night Spinners for 900 points (Large Blast against a Rhino Hull at BS4 probably needs less than 11 hits, but I am not going to bother calculating that). That said, this is a barrage weapon, so you can ignore cover saves if the rhino is not standing in area terrain, that actually helps quite a bit. So it could be an idea to bring 3 night spinners, and they will most likely score 2 hull points if no area terrain, making the job easier for WK or reapers to shave of the last hull point. A problem with Night Spinners is that stalkers can fire at skimmers with full BS, so if he goes first, then you will lose a night spinner to stalkers, and suddenly you only have 2x S8 large blasts.
Strength D Shots at BS4 and assuming Guide: 2
So all you really need is a WK and hope you don't roll bad. The problem with WK right now is that they are instagibbed by skyhammer. So you are 100% required to get the first turn, fire off those two shots at a frakin stalker that costs 75 points, and then watch your 310 point knight eat meltagrav the next turn.
To conclude, or tl;dr, it costs a lot and takes way much effort to ensure that your crimson hunters don't die on the turn they arrive unless you are lucky and playing Hammer and Anvil. By the time you have enough modles to securely take down one stalker in cover in turn 1, you don't really need another 12 S8 shots any more, because you have so much S8 and S9 shots on the table already. These calculations are also based on rolling average, if you roll less than average that stalker will survive, or if opponent goes first you might lose some units and not have enough to take out the stalker in the next turn (especially true with skyhammer). You could stave off the inevitable with Autarch, but keeping 440 points of the table on purpose until turn 3 or 4 doesn't seem worth it no matter how you look at it.
Edit: How can a flyer benefit from void shield generator, only units standing on the battlements can get that effect. I don't think you are allowed to ballance a crimson hunter on top of a bastion and say that it now has an AV12 shield?
Acidian wrote: The players I know deplay their stalkers so they have 4+ or 5+ cover. They also deploy them so they can usually cover the entire map. As I wrote in my post though, if you are lucky and are deploying on the shorts side of the table (ie, Hammer and Andvil), then you can get the crimsons in without worrying about intercept. Because if the opposing player wants to controll the whole board, he will have to drive the stalkers down towards your edge, which will most like take it out of cover and make it easier to kill. Vanguard strike can have a little bit of safe area in the corner, depending on how far up the long edge he deploys his stalker, but probably not enough space to put 3 crimson hunters in.
Dawn of war and vanguard both actually requires you to place the stalkers in the center of the deployment zone to cover the board. Also just to be sure, you are aware that the crimson death hunters are not a unit of vehicles and can be moved separately right?
Acidian wrote: I am fully aware that you only need to kill 1 stalker. However, I don't think you realize how hard it is to kill an AV12 tank in round one from the front with 4+ cover. (If you are lucky, there would only be 5+ cover available, but lets assume we are not lucky).
Spoiler:
Requirements to kill AV12 on average at 4+ cover.
S8 Shots at BS5: 15
So you need at least 13 Dark Reapers with 2 exarchs. However, if you put the reapers in two bastions with reroll ammo storage and two icarus (means no comms relay :( ) then you only need 10 Reapers with 2 exarchs manning the icarus, which is handy because you don't have more firepoints than for 8 reapers anyway.
So here you are paying 610 points to take out one stalker in turn 1, and that's before adding a required 3rd aspect warrior group and maybe void shield generators.
S8 Shots at BS4: 18
Alternatively you can go for 6 falcons with Pulse lasers and Bright lance. Or 18 Vypers, hah.
S9 Shots at BS4: 11
So have fun bringing 9 Night Spinners for 900 points (Large Blast against a Rhino Hull at BS4 probably needs less than 11 hits, but I am not going to bother calculating that). That said, this is a barrage weapon, so you can ignore cover saves if the rhino is not standing in area terrain, that actually helps quite a bit. So it could be an idea to bring 3 night spinners, and they will most likely score 2 hull points if no area terrain, making the job easier for WK or reapers to shave of the last hull point. A problem with Night Spinners is that stalkers can fire at skimmers with full BS, so if he goes first, then you will lose a night spinner to stalkers, and suddenly you only have 2x S8 large blasts.
Strength D Shots at BS4 and assuming Guide: 2
So all you really need is a WK and hope you don't roll bad. The problem with WK right now is that they are instagibbed by skyhammer. So you are 100% required to get the first turn, fire off those two shots at a frakin stalker that costs 75 points, and then watch your 310 point knight eat meltagrav the next turn.
1) What sort of pts levels are you playing at? You are talking about a skyhammer w/ grav devs and 3 stalkers which is over 1000 pts. That doesn't leave a lot in terms of scoring or support.
2) I find your boards to be incredibly hard to picture. How do you deploy a unit of 3 vehicles so they all have cover (remember they need to be 25% or more obscured and don't benefit from area terrain).
Acidian wrote: To conclude, or tl;dr, it costs a lot and takes way much effort to ensure that your crimson hunters don't die on the turn they arrive unless you are lucky and playing Hammer and Anvil. By the time you have enough modles to securely take down one stalker in cover in turn 1, you don't really need another 12 S8 shots any more, because you have so much S8 and S9 shots on the table already. These calculations are also based on rolling average, if you roll less than average that stalker will survive, or if opponent goes first you might lose some units and not have enough to take out the stalker in the next turn (especially true with skyhammer). You could stave off the inevitable with Autarch, but keeping 440 points of the table on purpose until turn 3 or 4 doesn't seem worth it no matter how you look at it.
Personally I would take the hit on the chin and loose 1 crimson hunter to interceptor. The unit then cannot fire next turn and so I then get 2 turns of shooting to deal with the unit using the crimson hunters who if they could be intercepted in the first place have an excellent chance to get into rear armour by then and will at least be able to outmaneuver the cover save on the unit. Remember that interceptor rule specifically states that the weapon it applies to can only be fired at any 1 unit, cannot be fired next turn, and the stalkers all have to be in a unit of 3 to ignore cover.
IMO the crimson death formation at 1850 pts and under works best in a null deployment list. As such I don't like it alongside a wraithknight which when kept in reserves wastes most of it's best abilities (board control and stomps) until turn 3 at best, and usually turn 4. I have been playing around with something like;
Acidian wrote: Edit: How can a flyer benefit from void shield generator, only units standing on the battlements can get that effect. I don't think you are allowed to ballance a crimson hunter on top of a bastion and say that it now has an AV12 shield?
The void shield generator works on any unit within 12" of the generator.
Dawn of war and vanguard both actually requires you to place the stalkers in the center of the deployment zone to cover the board. Also just to be sure, you are aware that the crimson death hunters are not a unit of vehicles and can be moved separately right?
Vanguard kinda needs the stalkers placed closer to the long sided table edge to cover the whole map. DoW just requires you to be in the middle of your own deployment zone, as far up to the boarder that you can safely place them. Yes, I am aware that vehicles who are not squadrons are actually separate units and are allowed to move separately.
1) What sort of pts levels are you playing at? You are talking about a skyhammer w/ grav devs and 3 stalkers which is over 1000 pts. That doesn't leave a lot in terms of scoring or support.
2) I find your boards to be incredibly hard to picture. How do you deploy a unit of 3 vehicles so they all have cover (remember they need to be 25% or more obscured and don't benefit from area terrain).
1.Usually 1850. My guess for an 1850 list would be a skyhammer formation, a unit of 3 stalkers, and assault centeurions in drop pods with melta. Other than that, I don't know what the SM players in our meta will bring.
2. Only the vehicle in front needs to be in cover? Not going to say that it's not possible that there might be space for one crimson hunter on a corner, but those things are pretty big because of their wing span. So you definitely would not fit 3 of them into one corner. We play with a lot of terrain on our board, and we also allow for area terrain that gives cover to vehicles. I think you need to by special GW scenery if you wanted to have legit area terrain, so we mix in some 6th edition rules for cover in stead. Not something I feel like arguing with the other players over.
Personally I would take the hit on the chin and loose 1 crimson hunter to interceptor. The unit then cannot fire next turn and so I then get 2 turns of shooting to deal with the unit using the crimson hunters who if they could be intercepted in the first place have an excellent chance to get into rear armour by then and will at least be able to outmaneuver the cover save on the unit. Remember that interceptor rule specifically states that the weapon it applies to can only be fired at any 1 unit, cannot be fired next turn, and the stalkers all have to be in a unit of 3 to ignore cover.
I don't have the rulebook with me, and I don't have the space marine codex. Does this mean that the stalkers can't use their split fire rule to fire on a second crimson hunter? As I understood it from one of the space marine players here, they can split fire at full BS now at a second target, meaning 3 stalkers could take out 2 crimsons in one turn. If this information was wrong, that would help a lot.
IMO the crimson death formation at 1850 pts and under works best in a null deployment list. As such I don't like it alongside a wraithknight which when kept in reserves wastes most of it's best abilities (board control and stomps) until turn 3 at best, and usually turn 4. I have been playing around with something like;
The void shield generator works on any unit within 12" of the generator.
The only void shield rule I can find is in the stronghold assault, and it only says something about shielding models on the battlements. So which void shield generator are we talking about here?
Acidian wrote: Vanguard kinda needs the stalkers placed closer to the long sided table edge to cover the whole map. DoW just requires you to be in the middle of your own deployment zone, as far up to the boarder that you can safely place them.
You are correct. I just said middle of deployment zone to simplify the statement. With the normal rules for vehicles claiming cover and the normal ITC style - large LoS blocking terrain in the middle of the board. This would have usually forced the SM player to not have cover on at least 1-2 of the stalkers and likely not have LoS to a section of the board. I would recommend trying to place LoS blocing terrain in the middle of the board, if you both roll off to place terrain. The SM player probably can claim cover on most of the stalkers. Just make sure to keep them honest that they are measuring each stalker's intercept range from the gun barrel and not all the stalkers from one of the guns. I have often found that one of the tanks in a unit can be made out of range with a little maneuvering. This could let you reduce the damage from intercept to some degree.
Acidian wrote: Yes, I am aware that vehicles who are not squadrons are actually separate units and are allowed to move separately.
Excellent, I have learned the hard way not to assume these things. Like the area terrain gives vehicles cover house rule, that makes the stalkers vastly more durable than I ever would have imagined.
Acidian wrote: 1.Usually 1850. My guess for an 1850 list would be a skyhammer formation, a unit of 3 stalkers, and assault centeurions in drop pods with melta. Other than that, I don't know what the SM players in our meta will bring.
2. Only the vehicle in front needs to be in cover? Not going to say that it's not possible that there might be space for one crimson hunter on a corner, but those things are pretty big because of their wing span. So you definitely would not fit 3 of them into one corner. We play with a lot of terrain on our board, and we also allow for area terrain that gives cover to vehicles. I think you need to by special GW scenery if you wanted to have legit area terrain, so we mix in some 6th edition rules for cover in stead. Not something I feel like arguing with the other players over.
1. right on. It sounds like the opponent's are largely drop pod players with a single unit of stalkers deployed and little else. First you should talk to your opponent's about interceptor as I post below. If you need to take this unit down turn 1 then there are a few options I see as being useful but there are not a lot of great options to do this.
a) For 375 pts a unit of 3 night spinners with crystal targeting matrix. This is actually a pretty nasty unit. It can move + turbo boost 30" on the first turn and then fire 3 torrent templates from one of the weapons with Str 9. Considering the fact that the stalkers will have to deploy away from their board edge you should be able to turbo boost in behind them and shoot the three templates into their rear armour. Because they are torrent they ignore cover, if you have all three still active then you should be able to kill all three of the stalkers in a single volley. Even with only 2 left, as long as you can get into rear armour you will still get 6 hits at Str 8 which will kill give an average 5 HP. In fact if you can get doom off as well you would only need 1 night weaver.
b) It would take 3 waveserpents firing their shields + scat lasers on average to kill a single stalker with 4+ cover. That isn't so bad if you already planned to take them to transport wraithguard or fire dragons but that is pretty awful otherwise. If you can gain access to doom reliably this becomes much easier. BTW a fun use for serpents I have been toying with is to use a crystal targeting matrix to turbo boost them in behind the enemy loaded with things like foot seer councils and wraithguard. I then fire the serpent shield into side and rear armour and the nasty stuff inside walks out of the serpent wreckage next turn. 2 of those serpents would average 4.66 HP on the first turn assuming stalker rear armour.
c) Speaking of a seer councils and wraithguard either could actually be pretty effective. Just put them in a bunker with escape hatch (or the seer council could probably work inside a serpent or definitely would work on bikes but they would need spears). Jump out turn 1 18" and shoot the stalkers. The wraithguard have a good chance to kill at least 1 stalker and the seer council would need significant psychic support but could do the job and cause general havok along the way.
d) Another option which could work is a unit of 3 D cannon vaul's wrath batteries with eldrad + warlock. Eldrad can scout the unit up close enough to the stalker to kill them and could even give them ignore cover with a little luck. The cool thing about this unit is they can have shrouded and a host of nice buffs and kill DSing units like it is a joke. I use this unit a lot in my guardian based lists. They are actually surprisingly effective.
2. The vehicle closest to the firing unit needs to be in cover with 25% of it obscured to get a cover save. Usually this is not hard to counteract as you can just deploy/move and shoot from different angles, which when talking about a unit of stalkers usually lets you target a different stalker or find a less obscured angle. You don't need GW terrain to do area terrain and even in 6ed vehicles didn't get area terrain. This house rule of vehicles getting area terrain is much like the brb rule letting GMC get it, broken. These terrain rules is actually a really big part of your problem. Your statement is making more sense to me now. The stalkers should still only have 5+ covert saves though as unless you guys are using completely different rules even for the cover save terrain gives. I hope your skimmers also benefit from these terrain rules?
Page 75 6ed BRB Vehicles are not obscured simply for being inside area terrain. The 25% rule given above takes precedence.
Acidian wrote: I don't have the rulebook with me, and I don't have the space marine codex. Does this mean that the stalkers can't use their split fire rule to fire on a second crimson hunter? As I understood it from one of the space marine players here, they can split fire at full BS now at a second target, meaning 3 stalkers could take out 2 crimsons in one turn. If this information was wrong, that would help a lot.
The stalkers do have a rule that they can split their fire at 2 different targets. However the rules for Interceptor from the brb state;
Interceptor
This weapon has been calibrated to target incoming drop troops, teleporting assault squads and other unlooked-for enemies.
At the end of the enemy Movement phase, a weapon with the Interceptor special rule can be fired at any one unit that has arrived from Reserve within its range and line of sight. If this rule is used, the weapon cannot be fired in the next turn, but the firing model can shoot a different weapon if it has one.
There is no exception given for these rules in the icarus stormcannon array rules. Thus the player could choose either fire method when intercepting but they have no permission to intercept two different units.
I can really see your problem now. If you combine the stalkers getting area terrain with the unit being able to shoot 18 shots at 2 crimson hunters this would be ridiculous. I am not sure if you can do anything about the area terrain (which btw makes the stalker unit vastly more durable) but at least you might be able to only loose one crimson hunter when they come on.
Acidian wrote: The only void shield rule I can find is in the stronghold assault, and it only says something about shielding models on the battlements. So which void shield generator are we talking about here?
You are looking at the void shield upgrade to an existing building, ie bunker etc. I am talking about the fortification "Void Shield Generator" which is 50 pts and can be upgraded with an extra 2 shields for 25 pts a piece. My digital edition has it on pg 55.
I would like to join the conversation by saying that I think the codex is strong easily top 5 but its not broken. I am looking at it from the viewpoint of a player who plays with ITC rules where strength D weapons and invisibility has been toned down a little. I agree that a lot of the formations are good but not OMG! The auto 6 inch run rule is nice but we are talking about giving this ability to units that already have fleet. I don't know if its worth the tax just to get the auto 6 when you already have a free re-roll. Now its a different story when you combine the 6 inch rule with Wraith Host formation. Giving d-scythes battle focus and guaranteed 6 inch run when they don't come with fleet is amazing, basically they have a 20 inch threat range with a strength D templates. That sounds really good until you have to pay your taxes and realize that the combo is well over 1000 points!
The formation where you get bs 5 is really good but once more you have to pay your taxes. Each squad must have an exarch in each squad and most likely your going to equip him with something so your still paying some points for something you normally would not get. I think the tax is worth it if you are using three of those units BS 5 is worth 30-60 points extra but the auto 6 run is not. Of the 3 Guardian Host that you must have Windrider Host is the cheapest but that means at a minimum you have 400 points that do not benefit from running 6 inches each turn. With the other two your in Bill Gates tax bracket, don't get me wrong I know that those units can work but you have to make them work its almost like the formation dictates your playing style instead of the other way around if you know what I mean.
Last couple of games against one player, I don't think he needed area terrain to get his stalkers in cover, there has been enough ruins on the board, and he has no other tanks competing for the cover space on his side. So area terrain might not even mater. That said, area terrain requires you to take dangerous/difficult terrain tests, which I feel is scarier on my serpents than on rhinos, but driving into area terrain can have consequences.
I had not seen the void shield before, and apparently it is not for sale at GW, so you have to make the models yourself? Sadly it competes with my bunker + comms relay for fortification slots, but stalkers can't hurt a crimson hunter under an av12 shield so seems worth it anyway. With this knowledge, I might even consider testing a hemlock.
Since the stalkers can only take out 1 crimson hunter on intercept, that makes it easier to deal with. You can still get a good map layout, and maybe he can't get good cover bonuses, but even if everything goes against you then you can only lose 1 crimson hunter in turn 2. I am very happy that they can't use their split fire on intercept, thank you.
If I run wraithguard in serpents, I usually turbo boost them up to the opponents edge with holo fields. This would not kill any stalkers in turn 1, but it's an awesome psychological move that usually scares most opponents to dedicate all their fire on those serpents/guards. Leaving the rest of your army to do what they want, and the wraith guard will probably survive anyway, even if the serpents don't.
I have considered the Eldrad with vaul's wrath before. If you get first turn, then it is craaaaazy amazing. Put them in cover around the middle of the map with shrouded from warlock and with a good chance of having fortune on eldrad. With the list I made with this formation, I also had 2 wraith guard units with scout that I push 12" forward as well. However, if opponent starts his turn first, then you wont have stealth or fortune, and with majority toughness 3 (goes up to 7 if a couple of guardians die though), then the unit would die too fast, and you can lose 400 points in models pretty fast. The serpents are really scary though, so opponent might decide to dedicate some or all fire to them.
I would like to join the conversation by saying that I think the codex is strong easily top 5 but its not broken. I am looking at it from the viewpoint of a player who plays with ITC rules where strength D weapons and invisibility has been toned down a little. I agree that a lot of the formations are good but not OMG! The auto 6 inch run rule is nice but we are talking about giving this ability to units that already have fleet. I don't know if its worth the tax just to get the auto 6 when you already have a free re-roll. Now its a different story when you combine the 6 inch rule with Wraith Host formation. Giving d-scythes battle focus and guaranteed 6 inch run when they don't come with fleet is amazing, basically they have a 20 inch threat range with a strength D templates. That sounds really good until you have to pay your taxes and realize that the combo is well over 1000 points!
The formation where you get bs 5 is really good but once more you have to pay your taxes. Each squad must have an exarch in each squad and most likely your going to equip him with something so your still paying some points for something you normally would not get. I think the tax is worth it if you are using three of those units BS 5 is worth 30-60 points extra but the auto 6 run is not. Of the 3 Guardian Host that you must have Windrider Host is the cheapest but that means at a minimum you have 400 points that do not benefit from running 6 inches each turn. With the other two your in Bill Gates tax bracket, don't get me wrong I know that those units can work but you have to make them work its almost like the formation dictates your playing style instead of the other way around if you know what I mean.
The new space marine codex with fast attack drop pods and skyhammer has definitely lightened the hate towards eldar players. Being able to kill 2 WKs in turn one has definitely shifted the focus in my lists to just ignore WKs (not that I ever ran with more than 1 anyway). Jet Bikes and Strength D weapons are still pretty broken, and since I think a lot of tourneys might ban the skyhammer formation (since it's not actually in the CSM), then we still have a very strong codex, even if certain tournaments decide to ban or nerf D weapons.
The 6" run move is pretty great even with fleet. Since Eldar can run and shoot with a lot of units, always getting 6" and not worrying about rolling low when you are trying to get into cover is pretty great. (If you roll a 4 on the dice, then you might not want to reroll, because the averages would be against you.) Also, if you are running a wraith host (wicked expensive, so really high point games), your wraithguard get battlefocus. That means your wraithguard in a serpent can drive 6", jump out and walk 6", then run 6" and fire 8"/12". So nice. Anyway, the reason most people want to run the craftworld warhost formation is not to get the 6" run, that is just a bonus, but to get the possibility of adding more than 1 wraith knight.
Exarchs often pay for themselves. Like the reaper exarch 2 wounds and has fast shot, so he fires 2 shots rather than 1. So you are basically paying for a 2nd reaper at 15 points rather than 22. How good the exarchs are do vary though, but an extra wound and +1BS/WS is always nice either way. Another bonus for aspect warrior formation is reroll on a bunch of leadership tests. My last opponent was cursing himself for not having reroll on morale checks when he failed them 3 times in a row on his leadership 9 (which was reduced to 7 against my harlequins) striking scorpions.
Acidian wrote:Last couple of games against one player, I don't think he needed area terrain to get his stalkers in cover, there has been enough ruins on the board, and he has no other tanks competing for the cover space on his side. So area terrain might not even mater. That said, area terrain requires you to take dangerous/difficult terrain tests, which I feel is scarier on my serpents than on rhinos, but driving into area terrain can have consequences.
The thing about area terrain to me at least is that eldar units are fast enough and MSU enough that we can usually cover several drastically different angles or jump on top of building to see past terrain. I have found that vehicles usually don't keep their cover saves against all the different units I can choose to kill them with. Area terrain stops you from ever being able to circumvent the cover save. It also give a great deal more flexibility so that the opponent will almost always have a good cover save even when deployed in a very limited number of spots.
You serpents can get Ghostwalk Matrix for 10 pts. That gives move through cover and thus you completely ignore dangerous terrain. If 4+ cover saves were as easy as it appears these boards make it then they could be an amazing value.
Acidian wrote:I had not seen the void shield before, and apparently it is not for sale at GW, so you have to make the models yourself? Sadly it competes with my bunker + comms relay for fortification slots, but stalkers can't hurt a crimson hunter under an av12 shield so seems worth it anyway. With this knowledge, I might even consider testing a hemlock.
It is pretty easy to model one though. Just get a clear soda bottle or glass jar. Spray some neon paint inside (I like green but any color will do), gorilla glue it to a base (card board works but an old DVD case works better), and then paint/flock/etc. it to the desired scenery.
My CWE void shield generators are 3D printed clear plastic generators from Dawn of War Soulstorm files. I love them.
Acidian wrote:Since the stalkers can only take out 1 crimson hunter on intercept, that makes it easier to deal with. You can still get a good map layout, and maybe he can't get good cover bonuses, but even if everything goes against you then you can only lose 1 crimson hunter in turn 2. I am very happy that they can't use their split fire on intercept, thank you.
Glad I could help.
Acidian wrote:If I run wraithguard in serpents, I usually turbo boost them up to the opponents edge with holo fields. This would not kill any stalkers in turn 1, but it's an awesome psychological move that usually scares most opponents to dedicate all their fire on those serpents/guards. Leaving the rest of your army to do what they want, and the wraith guard will probably survive anyway, even if the serpents don't.
Yeah, I find this to be a very fun army to play. Most of my opponent's have also enjoyed the games as it is lightning fast and tense. I personally like the ability to fire the serpent's weapon before they get assaulted and destroyed but it costs.
Acidian wrote:I have considered the Eldrad with vaul's wrath before. If you get first turn, then it is craaaaazy amazing. Put them in cover around the middle of the map with shrouded from warlock and with a good chance of having fortune on eldrad. With the list I made with this formation, I also had 2 wraith guard units with scout that I push 12" forward as well. However, if opponent starts his turn first, then you wont have stealth or fortune, and with majority toughness 3 (goes up to 7 if a couple of guardians die though), then the unit would die too fast, and you can lose 400 points in models pretty fast. The serpents are really scary though, so opponent might decide to dedicate some or all fire to them.
Artillery are always Toughness 7. So if you don't get the first turn you are still usually 4+ cover and T7. If you rolled on runes then you have a good chance to have gotten the fearless power with eldrad which means you can GtG and pop back up to shoot next turn due to fearless (super important against skyhammer). I usually like to take this with an ADL and comms relay so if the opponent is coming to me I can GtG for a 2+ cover save and use a farseer to power up a fearless bubble next turn. I also have been messing around with a foot seer council mixed in with this list. It actually works pretty well in my experience but I haven't gotten to do a lot of testing. Almost all my armies have been updated in this year.
Exarchs often pay for themselves. Like the reaper exarch 2 wounds and has fast shot, so he fires 2 shots rather than 1. So you are basically paying for a 2nd reaper at 15 points rather than 22. How good the exarchs are do vary though, but an extra wound and +1BS/WS is always nice either way. Another bonus for aspect warrior formation is reroll on a bunch of leadership tests. My last opponent was cursing himself for not having reroll on morale checks when he failed them 3 times in a row on his leadership 9 (which was reduced to 7 against my harlequins) striking scorpions.
I plan on taking 2 units of Fire dragons and Crack shot did not impress me much so I just glanced over the other ones pessimistically but, you are right after taking a closer look at the Exarch special rules the powers have their uses even the simple re-roll that is crack shot. Swooping Hawks deep striking without scattering is potentially a game winner in objective missions. With Dark Reapers you mention how it is technically paying for itself with the extra shot. Even the close combat oriented unit's Exarch powers are useful especially the striking scorpion one with a claw in a challenge.
I am glad I took a second look at this thanks to you Acidian, because I really like the Exarch power for warp spiders. You can blast stuff up with their shooting than assault rely on Iron Resolve to remain in cc and hit and run away only to shoot at them again with more than just the warp spiders. Ofcourse this isn't game breaking and should have been obvious but it wasn't to me. Also adding in an Autarch with a mask and swooping hawk wings (18 inches every time) to prevent overwatch add a spinneret rifle and fusion gun you have 3 ap 1 shots shots and 18 mono shots, just an extremely scary unit.
I've been thinking about how to put together lists with the Warhost, and I've settled on a rather basic format: Guardian Battlehost + Aspect Host. This brings me to 1750 points. My problem lies in effectively expanding this to 1850 and 200 points. With the way our formations work, it's neither possible nor effective to bulk up what I already have. I feel I have two options for expanding:
1. Engines of Vaul. One Nightspinner gets me to 1850 points, and an additional Fire Prism gets me to 2000 with some room for upgrades. I feel this is my best option for expanding.
2. Command formations. An Autarch can take me to 1850, or a Seer Council can take me to 2000. There are Phoenix Lords to consider as well, especially now that they are much more effective.
I wonder if anyone else has some ideas about how to expand on an existing Craftworld Warhost?
CKO wrote:
I plan on taking 2 units of Fire dragons and Crack shot did not impress me much so I just glanced over the other ones pessimistically but, you are right after taking a closer look at the Exarch special rules the powers have their uses even the simple re-roll that is crack shot. Swooping Hawks deep striking without scattering is potentially a game winner in objective missions. With Dark Reapers you mention how it is technically paying for itself with the extra shot. Even the close combat oriented unit's Exarch powers are useful especially the striking scorpion one with a claw in a challenge.
I am glad I took a second look at this thanks to you Acidian, because I really like the Exarch power for warp spiders. You can blast stuff up with their shooting than assault rely on Iron Resolve to remain in cc and hit and run away only to shoot at them again with more than just the warp spiders. Ofcourse this isn't game breaking and should have been obvious but it wasn't to me. Also adding in an Autarch with a mask and swooping hawk wings (18 inches every time) to prevent overwatch add a spinneret rifle and fusion gun you have 3 ap 1 shots shots and 18 mono shots, just an extremely scary unit.
I agree with the crack shot. It's cool with a fire pike, because you have a decent chance of damaging a tank from 18" away. The problem is paying 15 points more just for a 6" increase in range and 3" in melta range. Not sure if it's worth it, especially if you are not running aspect and being forced to buy an exarch.
I actually ran swooping hawks with autarch w/wings + fusion gun in my last game, just to test it out. With the exarch power, you can stick the exarch right behind an enemy tank and get melta bonus vs rear armor. Bonus in that the hawk exarch can throw a haywire grenade that hits on a 2+ and glances on a 2+, then used battle focus to run behind a building that was there. Next turn I assaulted the same squadron with a fusion gun and then 7 haywire grenades. The only problem with this unit is that it dies pretty fast.
HIt and run is pretty awsome to lock yourself in combat so nothing can shoot at you until your next turn. Having a banshees mask makes this pretty much risk free assuming you are charging stuff that sucks at close combat.
ansacs wrote:
You serpents can get Ghostwalk Matrix for 10 pts. That gives move through cover and thus you completely ignore dangerous terrain. If 4+ cover saves were as easy as it appears these boards make it then they could be an amazing value.
Ghostwalk matrix is an amazing upgrade, but often I will go for holofields. It depends on the tank type and what they are carrying. You can just jink for a 4+ cover as well, and when you turbo boost into the enemies face this might be the better option, then 5++ from holofields in case the tank gets assaulted is more important.
ansacs wrote:Artillery are always Toughness 7. So if you don't get the first turn you are still usually 4+ cover and T7. If you rolled on runes then you have a good chance to have gotten the fearless power with eldrad which means you can GtG and pop back up to shoot next turn due to fearless (super important against skyhammer). I usually like to take this with an ADL and comms relay so if the opponent is coming to me I can GtG for a 2+ cover save and use a farseer to power up a fearless bubble next turn. I also have been messing around with a foot seer council mixed in with this list. It actually works pretty well in my experience but I haven't gotten to do a lot of testing. Almost all my armies have been updated in this year.
Ah, I thought majority toughness was used here as well. Having T7 will be so good. It had not occured to me that I could use Will of Asuryan in this way before, that is a pretty cool idea, thanks!
Regarding the ADL, since you are using Eldrad to scout the Vaul's Wrath farther onto the table, don't you end up leaving your cover save behind? I would try and just get them into some kind of ruins or forest in the middle of the map, or as close to as possible. Even if you stayed by the ADL, the drop pod armies will just drop down behind you anyway, with grav and fire 20something rerollable shots that wound on 3+, so I am not sure how useful it would be against skyhammer?
I am envisioning Jain Zar leading combination of Storm Guardians, Banshees, and Blade Wraiths as a kick ass counter attack force, or in conjunction with DE, taking raiders up a flank and causing havoc.
Acidian wrote: Ah, I thought majority toughness was used here as well. Having T7 will be so good. It had not occured to me that I could use Will of Asuryan in this way before, that is a pretty cool idea, thanks!
Regarding the ADL, since you are using Eldrad to scout the Vaul's Wrath farther onto the table, don't you end up leaving your cover save behind? I would try and just get them into some kind of ruins or forest in the middle of the map, or as close to as possible. Even if you stayed by the ADL, the drop pod armies will just drop down behind you anyway, with grav and fire 20something rerollable shots that wound on 3+, so I am not sure how useful it would be against skyhammer?
That was what I was talking about if the enemy comes to you. For example a grav cannon skyhammer will essentially put all their juicy targets within 24" of this battery no matter where you deploy, thus you don't have to scout. The scout can be used on other units in this case. If you face something that is likely to sit back more you can scout this to control the center (hopefully in a ruins).
Against skyhammer you circle the ADL around the battery. The ADL doesn't have to be a straight line it can also be a box. BTW the gravs wound this on a 5+ as the majority save is 5+ not 3+. With these two factors this is a very good way to whether a grav drop. The dangerous part of using this is that a lucky assault from a ASM squad can wipe the unit, so make sure you disperse some units around it to block close in DSing, unless you stick an autarch in here. Actually an autarch with wings is kind of hilarious as he can reliably assault 24", meaning a grav dev unit could be assaulted after being shot.
Acidian wrote: Ah, I thought majority toughness was used here as well. Having T7 will be so good. It had not occured to me that I could use Will of Asuryan in this way before, that is a pretty cool idea, thanks!
Regarding the ADL, since you are using Eldrad to scout the Vaul's Wrath farther onto the table, don't you end up leaving your cover save behind? I would try and just get them into some kind of ruins or forest in the middle of the map, or as close to as possible. Even if you stayed by the ADL, the drop pod armies will just drop down behind you anyway, with grav and fire 20something rerollable shots that wound on 3+, so I am not sure how useful it would be against skyhammer?
That was what I was talking about if the enemy comes to you. For example a grav cannon skyhammer will essentially put all their juicy targets within 24" of this battery no matter where you deploy, thus you don't have to scout. The scout can be used on other units in this case. If you face something that is likely to sit back more you can scout this to control the center (hopefully in a ruins).
Against skyhammer you circle the ADL around the battery. The ADL doesn't have to be a straight line it can also be a box. BTW the gravs wound this on a 5+ as the majority save is 5+ not 3+. With these two factors this is a very good way to whether a grav drop. The dangerous part of using this is that a lucky assault from a ASM squad can wipe the unit, so make sure you disperse some units around it to block close in DSing, unless you stick an autarch in here. Actually an autarch with wings is kind of hilarious as he can reliably assault 24", meaning a grav dev unit could be assaulted after being shot.
I like this idea. I am not sure what I would put around the ADL to deny a charge (well probably bikes), as I have a feeling that unit will die just to allow the assault marines to charge (helps with target saturation off course). After looking at the options I think Autarch is the best idea here as well, and wings on autarch is awesome so you can go tank or devestator hunting afterwards. Having both Eldrad and an Autarch here makes it a pretty expensive unit though. I also find it kind of scary that an eviscerator (S8?) can one shot both as none of them have eternal warrior. What would have been funny is to have Baharroth so the unit gets Hit & Run. 170 points well spent.
I still think 2 units of WG in serpents might be the best supporting unit, so you can give them scout? That way you can scout 12", drive 6", turn your tank 180 and gain an inch or two in the process, disembark another 6" and threaten 8"/12" from there. You could go for another unit of Vaul's Wrath, but I don't like having two units that have no mobility.
TheNewBlood wrote:I've been thinking about how to put together lists with the Warhost, and I've settled on a rather basic format: Guardian Battlehost + Aspect Host. This brings me to 1750 points. My problem lies in effectively expanding this to 1850 and 200 points. With the way our formations work, it's neither possible nor effective to bulk up what I already have. I feel I have two options for expanding:
1. Engines of Vaul. One Nightspinner gets me to 1850 points, and an additional Fire Prism gets me to 2000 with some room for upgrades. I feel this is my best option for expanding.
2. Command formations. An Autarch can take me to 1850, or a Seer Council can take me to 2000. There are Phoenix Lords to consider as well, especially now that they are much more effective.
I wonder if anyone else has some ideas about how to expand on an existing Craftworld Warhost?
I would recommend a nightspinner that you can expand to 2 night spinners. I have seen these being used to great effect lately. They are versatile with their profiles, and having 2 in a unit scales well compared to just having 1.
That said, you are better off running a regular CAD with an aspect formation on the side. That way you are more free to chose how many units you want to use of each type. The windrider formation is considered the best core formation for the craftworld warhost. I can understand it if you want to base a list around guardians if you like them. but 3 units might be too much.
Quick question brothers, can vauls artillery move and shoot? What are you equiping your wave serpents with?
Autarch with swooping hawk wings and a fusion gun and a banshee mask is amazing! He is an excellent anti-tank weapon platform with the fusion gun and haywire grenade charge. Most of my list are cc oriented and him denying overwatch is huge! He makes a lot of the CC Dark Eldar units more effective such as the wyches, who normally die because of overwatch. A beast pack unit with with all there str 4 attacks striking at I 6 because of the Autarch grenades. Not to mention the bonuses to reserve rolls allow power from pain to be more effective.
Notice how I said more effective, I feel a lot of people focus their attention on the destructive power of a unit. Example wyches are not good because they can't kill anything but, wyches are suppose to tie up units and with an autarch denying overwatch they can do that a lot better, the beast pack unit should have a turn 2 charge taking advantage of his 18 inch move and you can place him upfront because you don't have to worry about overwatch.
Autarch with wings is nice indeed. I find his 12" movement a bonus, but especially his 18" move when he breaks off from a squad to do a long charge.
Note that while the autarch has grenades, the squad he joins will not benefit from them, so no beast packs swinging at initiative, sadly.
As to your question, no, most Vaul's wrath cannot move and shoot as they are artillery and have to snap shoot. Gunners can move and shoot their catapults, but that's about it.
All the platforms are free. defender guardian hosts benefit from size while Storm guardian hosts benefit from running 8 man squads to maximize the freebies
Here is how I look at the wave serpent loadouts:
Bright lance + catapult: Only one shot, and does not synargize that well with cannon, so might as well save your points and keep the catapult. Only take it if you are seriously desperate for anti-tank (usually whatever is inside the serpent is the anti tank)
Scatter laser + cannon: My default loadout. Same strength as cannon and shield, so they all work well against the same targets.
Starcannon + cannon: I usually have other stuff for taking care of AP2, but the cannon has rend, so you can get some wounds on AP2 units with this.
EML + cannon: Some people like EML on serpent. I think it's a trap though, as you mostly take EML for the S7 Starshot. However, it costs 15 points for that one shot, and TL scatter laser is actually better than S7 starshot against multipe air units. I think A12 flyers was the only time starshot actually surpassed the scatter laser on shaving hullpoints off flyers, but the scatter laser works so much better against every target on the board and costs 10 points less.
Cannon + cannon: You are better off getting a scatter laser or starcannon, depending on what you think you will be using the serpent for.
Bharring wrote: EML is usually a trap for CWE. We're forced to pay for flakk, which is overpriced.
I love the weapon, but rarely use it on vehicles.
The only unit to take it on would be Guardians in a Guardian Battlehost, when cost is taken out of the equation it does have the advantage of 48" range which could be useful if you want to sit them far back, as well as the versatility of the different fire modes
Do people use EML on Dark Reapers? I don't own any myself but does fast shot and bs 5/6 make it more worth it?
If you like the str 4 ap 4 blasts why not take the tempest launcher for 3 str 4 ap 3 blasts which you can barrage too? And the single shot str 8 ap 3 on the EML can be used using starshot missiles the only benefit the EML has is versatility and a skyfire shot
(Obviously all the single shots can be fired twice)
is amazing the cost to get this off will be tough for anyone besides the farseer. Can also end up destroying your own units.
dakka predator as a counter to the scatbikes. Was that a serious suggestion? You must be 
. Once you start going outside the codex, and look at like sized units with similar roles, even the humble marine tactical squad stands a good chance of knocking down an Avenger squad of equal points assuming terrain provides an equal advantage to start.
i painted mine all ready but now they just seem so outclassed now, do you think 
Spend those ~600 points on other stuff, like a squadron of War Walkers with Scatter Lasers (they'll do work, and they're cheap, relatively speaking).