90522
Post by: Sunhero
The results for the 50+ two day ict tournament are in with only one of the new Eldar coming in the top ten.
They will probably still prove to be a top tier army but they will not be completely dominant as some of the hysteria suggested.
Storm of Silence 2015 Results: http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Results-Storm_WLDsort.pdf
orks won. necrons and skitarii came second, with four necrons in top ten.
I understand that one data point is not a pattern but this shows you cant just turn up with 40 scatter bikes a wraithknight and some
D-Scythes and beat every one.
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Post by: carldooley
shouldn't the number of armies per faction sort of weight the results? Perhaps the Skitarii are more powerful, but when there were only one showing of them and 5 from Eldar players we cannot know how such things can be skewed.
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Post by: RED EYE JEDI
I would like to see more results of more tournaments, but this does show that elder wont ruin the tournament scene with their new dex.
but I would also like to know what restrictions were in place for tournament, (ranged D and such).
nice post
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Post by: Mozzyfuzzy
*Eldar: Codex Eldar Craftworlds will be released within the window that allows players to choose whether they will use the old codex or the new. There are some caveat and clarifications to keep in mind
If you choose to use the new Craftworlds Codex at the Storm:
--You CANNOT use any Eldar Forge World units (Hornets, Lynx, Nightwing, etc). Multiple reasons for this but mostly just for my sanity. Feel free to use the old codex if you wish to use Forge World Eldar units.
--You CANNOT use Iyanden Supplement. This is primarily a preventative measure on my part but also appears to be RaW.
--You CANNOT use any 6ed Eldar formations (well the one that is available). This is primarily a preventative measure on my part but also appears to be RaW.
--You can only use one Lord of War at the storm regardless of available slots, so the new codex Wraithknight will be an 0-1 choice and use up the LoW allowance
--No specific detachment can be duplicated at the Storm and this applies even if a detachment is taken inside a decurion style detachment. Also the 0-1 restriction on Lord of War also still applies. However there are selections in a decurion that are not formations or lords of war and these can be duplicated.
So of the the Eldar players we know their lists and which book was brought? So that we can conclude ..... oh right, we can't conclude anything from this.
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Post by: Azreal13
Sunhero wrote:
I understand that one data point is not a pattern but this shows you cant just turn up with 40 scatter bikes a wraithknight and some
D-Scythes and beat every one.
Off course, that would only be true if someone did turn up with that...
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Post by: Vector Strike
Best Tau: 16th
And Tau are still considered OP. Lawl.
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Post by: Thud
Yes. A tournament two weeks after the codex came out. Clearly enough time for all the the Eldar players to buy tons of Jetbikes and whatnot, get it all painted, get some practice in, and stomp butt.
Since butt-stomping did not occur, we can confidently conclude that the new Eldar codex sucks balls.
You should be a lawyer, OP. You have a firm understanding of this proof business.
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Post by: Mozzyfuzzy
and again, what list was used?, who did they play against? etc etc.
There's a reason I hate this sort of "surface" data, it doesn't show you what actually happened.
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Post by: SGTPozy
Tau never seem to rank highly yet are considered OP. Space Marines on the other hand always rank highly yet are not considered OP.
Double standards, double standards everywhere.
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Post by: Azreal13
Tau haven't really been considered OP in some time. They still have some strong options, but it's mostly a hangover from the last edition and before other books got updated.
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Post by: Jimsolo
Unfortunately, Sunhero, most people are not willing to consider evidence that challenges their preconceived notions. (In fact, research shows that the less rational the belief, the less effective evidence is, in some cases strengthening the prejudice!)
I'm not sure about the specifics, or how representative time results are (I appreciate you stating similar reasonable reservations, btw), but this is at least a little heartening. Thanks!
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Post by: Azreal13
Clearly you yourself are an example which supports that assertion.
People have provided very clear, logical reasons why this information probably isn't sufficient to draw any real conclusions from, and you're implying they're not rational?
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Post by: gummyofallbears
Eldar WILL break competitive with a list that include 12 squads of 3 scatterbikes and 2 wratihknights, among other things.
There were rules set in place about the Eldar, and in general. It is also worth noting the skill of the player and the list that they brought.
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Post by: MWHistorian
"Prove" is an awfully strong word in this case.
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Post by: AllSeeingSkink
That's good, then maybe you should change the title of the thread to something less trollish... Storm of Silence results prove may suggest Eldar hysteria to be hot air concerns may be unwarranted. But yeah, 5 Eldar armies in a tournament of 50 or so armies only a couple of weeks after the codex came out is a pretty meaningless data point.
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Post by: lustigjh
SGTPozy wrote:
Tau never seem to rank highly yet are considered OP. Space Marines on the other hand always rank highly yet are not considered OP.
Double standards, double standards everywhere.
I think it's worth pointing out that most people don't say " SM are OP" because they're thinking of specific chapters. How many of those high placing lists were white scars?
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Post by: Orock
Who could have guessed that in a tournament with army composition scores and rating the fun level of your opponents being of equal points value as battle scores eldar might not win, or that orks would place highly? WHOOOOOOOOOO??????????
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Post by: RaptorusRex
Oh, hey! Eldar fishing poles- but where's the bait?
86074
Post by: Quickjager
Post the list.
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Post by: Byte
Orks won! That's cool right?
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Post by: Orock
Its cool, but it wasn't on the strength of the codex. More like a decent win rate combined with good sportsmanship and army composition scores. Like it should always be to be honest.
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Post by: Talys
SGTPozy wrote:
Tau never seem to rank highly yet are considered OP. Space Marines on the other hand always rank highly yet are not considered OP.
Double standards, double standards everywhere.
In 40k, people often confuse easy to play with overpowered. There are many armies like 6e Wave Serpents and gunline Tau which are easy to play. If you aren't strategically minded and/or experienced in 40k, it seems overpowered, because your army doesn't feel like it has a reasonable counter. And damn, they killed you so effortlessly using a simple strategy. You had no hope.
But actually, what is usually closer to the truth is that many of those easy to play armies are quite limited in what they can do and quite predictable. They rarely take tournaments, because against an experienced player with a more flexible army with a more unexpected bag of tricks, they will lose a disproportionate number of games.
They feel overpowered because in they overperform in the "casual competitive" scene -- ie those who like to think themselves as competitive, but actually aren't really that great, would never win a serious tournament, and really haven't invested that much time in real battles with real armies. It basically makes someone who isn't that good look better than they actually are, because the army is easy to play.
Byte wrote:Orks won! That's cool right?
Actually, that's the best takeaway from the tournament  I would love to know the army composition!
gummyofallbears wrote:Eldar WILL break competitive with a list that include 12 squads of 3 scatterbikes and 2 wratihknights, among other things.
There were rules set in place about the Eldar, and in general. It is also worth noting the skill of the player and the list that they brought.
Well, in an awful lot of tournaments, you'll never see that, because Wraithknights are now LoW, and only max 1 LoW are permitted. I actually called this before the codex drop: Wraithknight changes overall weaken the codex in the tourney scene because of its status change to LoW (and the limits on LoWs). For that matter, ranged D, too, since those can't be taken in many tournaments. In the ITC circuit, you actually get a bonus/buff for not taking a LoW, if your opponent does.
However, putting that aside -- 36 scatterbikes and 2 wraithknights leave you with less than 300 points free, and that's assuming you have no upgrades. With any upgrades, you'll have not much space for much of anything else. I don't think that would be a tournament winning list. 40 bikes is a pain to find space for on a 6x4 anyhow, and leaves you with limited and predictable retreat options for JSJ. I think this would be a weaker list than serpent spam lists -- which also weren't really feared tournament lists.
My bigger question is wtf is going to happen with Imperial Knights. Is the faction no longer playable, as they are now all LoW?!
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Post by: Sarigar
Talys: I am also curious about the IK quandary. I don't really have a good answer these days, other than I pretty much have become very selective as to what events I attend. There are enough events that (at least for me) are within driving distance that I can pick and choose.
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Post by: jreilly89
"Eldar aren't that OP" bahahahahaha. Oh wait, you're serious? One tournament a month after the book is released proves little. Eldar are still and will probably always be top tier, especially in tournaments where not fluff or sportmanship points are awarded.
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Post by: gmaleron
Called it when the Eldar drop, typical IoM bias. Everyone was freaking out about Eldar an didn't even stop to think about just how nasty the new Skitarri really are, especially when combined with the Flesh Tearers Formation and shoved into drop pods (Frontline Gaming proved that). Eldar are strong for sure but they are definitely not as OP as people were claiming or imagining them to be.
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Post by: Byte
gmaleron wrote:Called it when the Eldar drop, typical IoM bias. Everyone was freaking out about Eldar an didn't even stop to think about just how nasty the new Skitarri really are, especially when combined with the Flesh Tearers Formation and shoved into drop pods (Frontline Gaming proved that). Eldar are strong for sure but they are definitely not as OP as people were claiming or imagining them to be.
Don't know what Frontline was doing but I saw and planned that list from go. Its nasty. I didn't realize it was a thing already.
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Post by: NuggzTheNinja
Sample size of 1, no info on lists, pure Eldar with restrictions doesn't touch the full potential of Eldar, unrestricted, with allies, and the tourney was run a couple weeks after the codex dropped.
Threads like this are the same reason that our country is in the toilet: it's run by lawyers rather than engineers and scientists.
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Post by: ansacs
The winning Ork list is here;
http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2015/05/06/tits-tournaments-storm-silence-itc-results-pics/
Very good list. Lots of tricks and options to win missions and kill what needs to be killed.
IMO this doesn't really prove anything. However, the burden of proof should have been on the people that screamed bloody murder anyways. Status Quo should not have to be proven it is change ie the "end of the competitive 40K" that should have needed some sort of proof. This entire situation is like a person accused someone of a crime and never bothered to prove there was a crime committed, instead the lynching committee got together and started measuring rope. Heck there is even a thread referencing typical lynching and witch hunt (burning people alive BTW!) references (pitch forks and torches) advocating a complete ban of CWE players and rules from games and events...this thread gained a large following and agreement before the codex was even released, just WOW.
I do find it lamentable that CWE opened the gates to a number of newbie stomper builds (scat pack spam, wraithknight spam). These builds struggle in 6-9 round game tournaments as they are unbalanced and there are popular lists which can kill these lists almost wholesale in 1-2 turns. However they will definitely rock an unprepared player and they usually lead to short unsatisfactory games. BTW this is also much of the reason that Tau are called OP whereas SM are usually not. SM win by outscoring you and don't usually table their opponent until the 5-7 turns if they manage to table their opponents at all. Some Tau builds will table unprepared players in the 2-3 turns and an unprepared player can see the majority of their models shot off the board turn 1. People don't like picking up their toys without playing with them first.  I of course don't mind as I have an IG army...I pick up dozens of models every game having only just deployed them, playing IG is a form of self torture but also a love and passion.
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Post by: jreilly89
NuggzTheNinja wrote:Sample size of 1, no info on lists, pure Eldar with restrictions doesn't touch the full potential of Eldar, unrestricted, with allies, and the tourney was run a couple weeks after the codex dropped.
Threads like this are the same reason that our country is in the toilet: it's run by lawyers rather than engineers and scientists.
No, the country is run by politicians and money. Lawyers don't want to run the country, lawyers just want to get paid and parade around this corpse called "justice".
OT, this is another Eldar defense. Having just played new Eldar, they are beyond broken. AFAIK, Skitaari don't have insane psychic phases. I'd rather fight Skitaari then WraithKnights and D weapons. At least Skitaari can be doubled out pretty reliably.
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Post by: BrianDavion
jreilly89 wrote: NuggzTheNinja wrote:Sample size of 1, no info on lists, pure Eldar with restrictions doesn't touch the full potential of Eldar, unrestricted, with allies, and the tourney was run a couple weeks after the codex dropped.
Threads like this are the same reason that our country is in the toilet: it's run by lawyers rather than engineers and scientists.
No, the country is run by politicians and money. Lawyers don't want to run the country, lawyers just want to get paid and parade around this corpse called "justice".
OT, this is another Eldar defense. Having just played new Eldar, they are beyond broken. AFAIK, Skitaari don't have insane psychic phases. I'd rather fight Skitaari then WraithKnights and D weapons. At least Skitaari can be doubled out pretty reliably.
Honestly I don't see Skitarii as being all that broken, sure they have lots of toys enabling them to be a threat but those toys tend to require points. thats what gets me about the eldar 'dex.
I mean compare the new Imperial Knight crusader to the wraithknight, the WK is only 295 points vs the crusaders 425... because?
55577
Post by: ImAGeek
gmaleron wrote:Called it when the Eldar drop, typical IoM bias. Everyone was freaking out about Eldar an didn't even stop to think about just how nasty the new Skitarri really are, especially when combined with the Flesh Tearers Formation and shoved into drop pods (Frontline Gaming proved that). Eldar are strong for sure but they are definitely not as OP as people were claiming or imagining them to be.
You do realise that this one tournament where we don't know if they used the old or new codex, very shortly after the codex dropped proves literally nothing yes?
87291
Post by: jreilly89
ImAGeek wrote: gmaleron wrote:Called it when the Eldar drop, typical IoM bias. Everyone was freaking out about Eldar an didn't even stop to think about just how nasty the new Skitarri really are, especially when combined with the Flesh Tearers Formation and shoved into drop pods (Frontline Gaming proved that). Eldar are strong for sure but they are definitely not as OP as people were claiming or imagining them to be.
You do realise that this one tournament where we don't know if they used the old or new codex, very shortly after the codex dropped proves literally nothing yes?
No facts matter here, only feelz. Automatically Appended Next Post: BrianDavion wrote: jreilly89 wrote: NuggzTheNinja wrote:Sample size of 1, no info on lists, pure Eldar with restrictions doesn't touch the full potential of Eldar, unrestricted, with allies, and the tourney was run a couple weeks after the codex dropped.
Threads like this are the same reason that our country is in the toilet: it's run by lawyers rather than engineers and scientists.
No, the country is run by politicians and money. Lawyers don't want to run the country, lawyers just want to get paid and parade around this corpse called "justice".
OT, this is another Eldar defense. Having just played new Eldar, they are beyond broken. AFAIK, Skitaari don't have insane psychic phases. I'd rather fight Skitaari then WraithKnights and D weapons. At least Skitaari can be doubled out pretty reliably.
Honestly I don't see Skitarii as being all that broken, sure they have lots of toys enabling them to be a threat but those toys tend to require points. thats what gets me about the eldar 'dex.
I mean compare the new Imperial Knight crusader to the wraithknight, the WK is only 295 points vs the crusaders 425... because?
Oh absolutely. Besides being expensive, being able to kill Skitaari really hurts them, especially since most have 4+ and a 5+ FNP but are only T3. Eldar however can get Jink shenanigans, reroll saving throws, and then gak like Guide, Fortune, and Doom with 87 Psykers.
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Post by: Orock
Actually its only a 6+ fnp.
And LOL at eldar defenders in this thread. The deflecting is so strong the government is thinking about printing out the comments and pasting them on their tanks as new lightweight armor.
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Post by: Moktor
Thud wrote:
Since butt-stomping did not occur, we can confidently conclude that the new Eldar codex sucks balls.
Actually, that isn't at all what the OP said. I think the real deflectors here are the anti-"Eldar Defenders" who insist that the codex is so broken it is unplayable. Most of the over the top comments are coming from people who think that Eldar should be banned, and it reeks of desperation.
The OP said, and I agree, that it is definitely top-tier. I also believe that while this isn't the final word on anything, it goes to show that Eldar are not some unbeatable train of an army; crashing through all others with the scary S  weapons and endless fields of scatterlasers.
The above quote is way over-dramatic, and not representative of what was said in the OP.
Does the codex have the potential to be over the top? You bet it does. To be reasonable, however, it needs to be playtested and proven to be broken. It is amazing to see what changes on the actual battlefield. Making tons of changes ahead of anyone even getting to play is simply a cop-out.
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Post by: Happyjew
From the link ansacs posted:
Eldar didn’t turn out to be that scary, but of course the codex was one week old, so does it really mean anything?
So it would seem that a good portion of the Eldar players were running Newdar.
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Post by: Talys
ansacs wrote:I do find it lamentable that CWE opened the gates to a number of newbie stomper builds (scat pack spam, wraithknight spam). These builds struggle in 6-9 round game tournaments as they are unbalanced and there are popular lists which can kill these lists almost wholesale in 1-2 turns. However they will definitely rock an unprepared player and they usually lead to short unsatisfactory games. BTW this is also much of the reason that Tau are called OP whereas SM are usually not. SM win by outscoring you and don't usually table their opponent until the 5-7 turns if they manage to table their opponents at all. Thank you -- that is a good way to put it  I must remember "newbie stomper builds". I have no idea why so many people think 30-40 bikes plus some wraithknights is the winningest army, except perhaps theoretically on a 30ft x 30ft table, you can just fly circles around your enemy and pick them off to death. We've tried it on scatterbike + wraithknight spam using proxies on 6x4 (1850 points) and 8x8 (3000 points), and it wasn't all that pretty for the bikes. Wraith Host is really nothing to worry about, either, in 1850, though Wraithguard are definitely a nice unit when used judiciously. BrianDavion wrote:I mean compare the new Imperial Knight crusader to the wraithknight, the WK is only 295 points vs the crusaders 425... because? I agree. Either the WK is too cheap (this is my position) or the IK is too expensive. But hey, in a tournament game with only 1 LoW, both have been nerfed -- as neither were LoW before. Automatically Appended Next Post: Happyjew wrote:From the link ansacs posted:
Eldar didn’t turn out to be that scary, but of course the codex was one week old, so does it really mean anything?
So it would seem that a good portion of the Eldar players were running Newdar.
He makes a good point though: the burden of proof should be on the people who say the sky is falling to actually play it out with reasonably smart players, and see if scatterspam is really that effective against tough tournament lists. Just because an army seems dead easy to play doesn't necessarily make it a winning army.
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Post by: Sunhero
ansacs wrote:The winning Ork list is here;
http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2015/05/06/tits-tournaments-storm-silence-itc-results-pics/
Very good list. Lots of tricks and options to win missions and kill what needs to be killed.
IMO this doesn't really prove anything. However, the burden of proof should have been on the people that screamed bloody murder anyways. Status Quo should not have to be proven it is change ie the "end of the competitive 40K" that should have needed some sort of proof. This entire situation is like a person accused someone of a crime and never bothered to prove there was a crime committed, instead the lynching committee got together and started measuring rope. Heck there is even a thread referencing typical lynching and witch hunt (burning people alive BTW!) references (pitch forks and torches) advocating a complete ban of CWE players and rules from games and events...this thread gained a large following and agreement before the codex was even released, just WOW.
I do find it lamentable that CWE opened the gates to a number of newbie stomper builds (scat pack spam, wraithknight spam). These builds struggle in 6-9 round game tournaments as they are unbalanced and there are popular lists which can kill these lists almost wholesale in 1-2 turns. However they will definitely rock an unprepared player and they usually lead to short unsatisfactory games. BTW this is also much of the reason that Tau are called OP whereas SM are usually not. SM win by outscoring you and don't usually table their opponent until the 5-7 turns if they manage to table their opponents at all. Some Tau builds will table unprepared players in the 2-3 turns and an unprepared player can see the majority of their models shot off the board turn 1. People don't like picking up their toys without playing with them first.  I of course don't mind as I have an IG army...I pick up dozens of models every game having only just deployed them, playing IG is a form of self torture but also a love and passion.
every one should read this.
I agree completely.
especially with CWE being full of "newbie stomper builds".
just like tau and this is this is "the reason that Tau are called OP whereas SM are usually not."
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Post by: Accolade
OP, could you change the title so it's less of a flamebait thread and more of an actual discussion?
91640
Post by: Wyldhunt
My two cents: At our local ATC-style tournament yesterday, we had an eldar player run the following.
Farseer
2 squads of rangers
Spirit Host formation including 3 squads of 5 wraithguard in serpents.
His first round was against blob IG. I didn't catch the specifics, but I think he basically just couldn't do enough damage to the blob for it to matter while they blasted him with heavy weapons.
Second round was against a green tide. His wraith knight got stuck in, then died to power klaws on turn 3. Wound up losing, but got points for killing his special targets.
Third round was his first win. It was against a chaos marine army featuring daemon engines, a land raider, and some other vehicles. So a pretty solid target for his wraith weapons.
Again, this is far from being a trend. He had some unfortunate matchups and won 100% (1 game) of his games against non-hordes. However, it does show that ranged d (wraithguns) and reigned-in use of a wraith knight doesn't have to be an auto-win.
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Post by: OrkaMorka
Best thing about this thread is the people broiling at the OP as though he unsolicited relations with their mothers, sisters, and dog.
The only flame baiting are the people who take this way too seriously.
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Post by: Chute82
This just proves the ork codex is OP.
The truth is one 50 person tournament does not prove a thing. You can't base a whole argument that Eldar are nothing buy hype after a few weeks of a new dex. Also as other have pointed out points where rewarded on other things then just wins alone. Not a very good argument on the OP part
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Post by: Accolade
OrkaMorka wrote:Best thing about this thread is the people broiling at the OP as though he unsolicited relations with their mothers, sisters, and dog.
The only flame baiting are the people who take this way too seriously.
Pointing out flaws in the argument posted in the OP or asking for a normal title (ie "Tournament shows Eldar power level may not be as great a concern as previously though") hardly constitutes flame baiting.
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Post by: OrkaMorka
Not a fan of the Ork list myself. It's mostly Tankbusta and Warbike spam. Not very imaginative nor complex.
Very killy, but not my flavour. I may not make awesome TAC lists myself, only because I like to mix up my troops to make it interesting.
I'd like to see where this Eldar Dex stands in a couple months. I don't think its as bad as napalm in the eyes as some people think, but it does look bloody mean.
Accolade wrote: OrkaMorka wrote:Best thing about this thread is the people broiling at the OP as though he unsolicited relations with their mothers, sisters, and dog.
The only flame baiting are the people who take this way too seriously.
Pointing out flaws in the argument posted in the OP or asking for a normal title (ie "Tournament shows Eldar power level may not be as great a concern as previously though") hardly constitutes flame baiting.
Pointing out flaws in an argument is cool. I like that myself. It makes discussion boards interesting.
The general attitude of some people here and on other threads are pretty terrible though.
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Post by: bullyboy
I do find it funny that the Eldar bashers are now saying "the codex has only been out for a week" yet it took less than 30 minutes for these same people to come up with lists they think are all broken, lol.
If it is that broken, it would not have mattered, the results should have been better based on the scorn thrown about on this forum.
One event does not make a trend, but it's nice to see that the sky hasn't fallen yet.
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Post by: ImAGeek
bullyboy wrote:I do find it funny that the Eldar bashers are now saying "the codex has only been out for a week" yet it took less than 30 minutes for these same people to come up with lists they think are all broken, lol.
If it is that broken, it would not have mattered, the results should have been better based on the scorn thrown about on this forum.
One event does not make a trend, but it's nice to see that the sky hasn't fallen yet.
Coming up with a list is easy. A lot of them used a lot of Jetbikes, which you have to buy, assemble etc, which you might not be able to do in a week. We need to see the lists they used really.
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Post by: Accolade
ImAGeek wrote:bullyboy wrote:I do find it funny that the Eldar bashers are now saying "the codex has only been out for a week" yet it took less than 30 minutes for these same people to come up with lists they think are all broken, lol.
If it is that broken, it would not have mattered, the results should have been better based on the scorn thrown about on this forum.
One event does not make a trend, but it's nice to see that the sky hasn't fallen yet.
Coming up with a list is easy. A lot of them used a lot of Jetbikes, which you have to buy, assemble etc, which you might not be able to do in a week. We need to see the lists they used really.
This reminds me, I believe Reecius has a contest going on over at Frontline Gaming for anyone who can beat his Eldar jetbike/wraithknight army, I wonder how that's been going.
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Post by: SilverDevilfish
Wyldhunt wrote:My two cents: At our local ATC-style tournament yesterday, we had an eldar player run the following.
Farseer
2 squads of rangers
Spirit Host formation including 3 squads of 5 wraithguard in serpents.
His first round was against blob IG. I didn't catch the specifics, but I think he basically just couldn't do enough damage to the blob for it to matter while they blasted him with heavy weapons.
Second round was against a green tide. His wraith knight got stuck in, then died to power klaws on turn 3. Wound up losing, but got points for killing his special targets.
Third round was his first win. It was against a chaos marine army featuring daemon engines, a land raider, and some other vehicles. So a pretty solid target for his wraith weapons.
Again, this is far from being a trend. He had some unfortunate matchups and won 100% (1 game) of his games against non-hordes. However, it does show that ranged d (wraithguns) and reigned-in use of a wraith knight doesn't have to be an auto-win.
When I first saw the Wraithhost formation and tried thinking out a list with it, it struck me as a trap.
Everything I keep seeing and hearing about it, just keeps confirming that initial impression.
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Post by: Konrax
NuggzTheNinja wrote:Sample size of 1, no info on lists, pure Eldar with restrictions doesn't touch the full potential of Eldar, unrestricted, with allies, and the tourney was run a couple weeks after the codex dropped.
Threads like this are the same reason that our country is in the toilet: it's run by lawyers rather than engineers and scientists.
Dear god if the country was run be engineers and scientists everything would go to shi7.
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Post by: Davor
Chute82 wrote:This just proves the ork codex is OP.
The truth is one 50 person tournament does not prove a thing. You can't base a whole argument that Eldar are nothing buy hype after a few weeks of a new dex. Also as other have pointed out points where rewarded on other things then just wins alone. Not a very good argument on the OP part
Well to be fair a lot of people played only one game against Eldar and are claiming they are Over Powered. How does that prove anything?
So what is it? One game proves Eldar are over powered or one tournament doesn't prove that Eldar are not over powered? You can't have it both ways.
55577
Post by: ImAGeek
Davor wrote: Chute82 wrote:This just proves the ork codex is OP.
The truth is one 50 person tournament does not prove a thing. You can't base a whole argument that Eldar are nothing buy hype after a few weeks of a new dex. Also as other have pointed out points where rewarded on other things then just wins alone. Not a very good argument on the OP part
Well to be fair a lot of people played only one game against Eldar and are claiming they are Over Powered. How does that prove anything?
So what is it? One game proves Eldar are over powered or one tournament doesn't prove that Eldar are not over powered? You can't have it both ways.
Well to be fair not everyone is claiming both.
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Post by: Thud
Moktor wrote: Thud wrote:
Since butt-stomping did not occur, we can confidently conclude that the new Eldar codex sucks balls.
Actually, that isn't at all what the OP said. I think the real deflectors here are the anti-"Eldar Defenders" who insist that the codex is so broken it is unplayable. Most of the over the top comments are coming from people who think that Eldar should be banned, and it reeks of desperation.
The OP said, and I agree, that it is definitely top-tier. I also believe that while this isn't the final word on anything, it goes to show that Eldar are not some unbeatable train of an army; crashing through all others with the scary S  weapons and endless fields of scatterlasers.
The above quote is way over-dramatic, and not representative of what was said in the OP.
Does the codex have the potential to be over the top? You bet it does. To be reasonable, however, it needs to be playtested and proven to be broken. It is amazing to see what changes on the actual battlefield. Making tons of changes ahead of anyone even getting to play is simply a cop-out.
So, you're gonna go for criticizing me for taking OP out of context by taking a sentence from my post of out context? Smooth move, turbo.
The above quote, as you say, is over-dramatic as it was intentionally so to be a sarcastic exaggeration relating to OP's "proof," which was perfectly obvious within the context of the entire post, but not-so-much on its own.
To re-iterate; one tournament held ONE week after the Eldar release proves nothing. There were five Eldar players there, and at least two of them were using the old book (the BOK blog shows pictures of only two Eldar armies, both had Wraithknights, and the tournament allowed both books, but not the WK from the new one).
And by the way, this whole "come on guys, we don't know anything before it's playtested properly" spiel doesn't make you the voice of reason, it just makes you yet another guy on the internet basing his argument on a logical fallacy (argumentum ad temperantiam, if you're wondering).
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Post by: SilverDevilfish
Thud wrote: Moktor wrote: Thud wrote:
Since butt-stomping did not occur, we can confidently conclude that the new Eldar codex sucks balls.
Actually, that isn't at all what the OP said. I think the real deflectors here are the anti-"Eldar Defenders" who insist that the codex is so broken it is unplayable. Most of the over the top comments are coming from people who think that Eldar should be banned, and it reeks of desperation.
The OP said, and I agree, that it is definitely top-tier. I also believe that while this isn't the final word on anything, it goes to show that Eldar are not some unbeatable train of an army; crashing through all others with the scary S  weapons and endless fields of scatterlasers.
The above quote is way over-dramatic, and not representative of what was said in the OP.
Does the codex have the potential to be over the top? You bet it does. To be reasonable, however, it needs to be playtested and proven to be broken. It is amazing to see what changes on the actual battlefield. Making tons of changes ahead of anyone even getting to play is simply a cop-out.
So, you're gonna go for criticizing me for taking OP out of context by taking a sentence from my post of out context? Smooth move, turbo.
The above quote, as you say, is over-dramatic as it was intentionally so to be a sarcastic exaggeration relating to OP's "proof," which was perfectly obvious within the context of the entire post, but not-so-much on its own.
To re-iterate; one tournament held ONE week after the Eldar release proves nothing. There were five Eldar players there, and at least two of them were using the old book (the BOK blog shows pictures of only two Eldar armies, both had Wraithknights, and the tournament allowed both books, but not the WK from the new one).
And by the way, this whole "come on guys, we don't know anything before it's playtested properly" spiel doesn't make you the voice of reason, it just makes you yet another guy on the internet basing his argument on a logical fallacy (argumentum ad temperantiam, if you're wondering).
It's worth noting that if something needs to be playtested to determine whether it will break the game or not, then it's only reasonable that it should not be playable until a decision be made using play test games and invite-only tournaments involving the best players in the area. Where's the logic of adding something that may be broken to the tournament meta? Clearly Eldar players should have to use the 6th ed codex if we're using the logic of "it needs to be playtested more".
This isn't just pertaining to the Eldar either. I hate the argument of "It's not playtested, so let's let it run free and possibly ruin everything" in general.
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Post by: DCannon4Life
Ah sweet problem of vagueness: If ONE tournament doesn't disprove the Eldar codex is OP, then we can conclude that ONE tournament doesn't make a difference. It follows, therefore, that an ADDITIONAL tournament would not make a difference. And so on, until there are a dozen tournaments in the books and the Eldar codex is still somehow OP despite evidence to the contrary. GG.
Pure Hilarity.
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Post by: jreilly89
DCannon4Life wrote:Ah sweet problem of vagueness: If ONE tournament doesn't disprove the Eldar codex is OP, then we can conclude that ONE tournament doesn't make a difference. It follows, therefore, that an ADDITIONAL tournament would not make a difference. And so on, until there are a dozen tournaments in the books and the Eldar codex is still somehow OP despite evidence to the contrary. GG.
Pure Hilarity.
Name is DCannon4Life, has an Eldar tag, posts about how Eldar aren't that OP. Yep, everything checks out.
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Post by: bibotot
This tournament result makes me want to gak on whoever wrote the Necron Codex. fething broken.
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Post by: Thud
DCannon4Life wrote:Ah sweet problem of vagueness: If ONE tournament doesn't disprove the Eldar codex is OP, then we can conclude that ONE tournament doesn't make a difference. It follows, therefore, that an ADDITIONAL tournament would not make a difference. And so on, until there are a dozen tournaments in the books and the Eldar codex is still somehow OP despite evidence to the contrary. GG.
Pure Hilarity.
Are you trolling or are you actually not able to see how that's a fallacy?
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Post by: DCannon4Life
The Problem of Vagueness operates when some dipstick says, 'One of X doesn't make a difference'. We demonstrate the absurdity of this premise by showing how it leads to, for example, a hairless man being classified as 'not-bald', because some dipstick said that pulling one hair off of a man's head doesn't make him bald.
Do YOU get that I'm making fun of posters that say this one tournament doesn't make a difference?
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Post by: Accolade
DCannon4Life wrote:Do YOU get that I'm making fun of posters that say this one tournament doesn't make a difference?
There's your problem. You don't GET to make fun of other posters, it goes against Rule #1. Think your posting over before attacking another person over their opinion on plastic miniatures.
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Post by: ImAGeek
But one tournament doesn't make a difference. That one hair doesn't make a difference. If the original post had a few data points it would be different but coming in saying 'Eldar didn't win this one tournament so they aren't broken' is like saying 'we took one hair from this mans hair so he must be bald', to use your analogy.
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Post by: Crimson Devil
Accolade wrote: ImAGeek wrote:bullyboy wrote:I do find it funny that the Eldar bashers are now saying "the codex has only been out for a week" yet it took less than 30 minutes for these same people to come up with lists they think are all broken, lol.
If it is that broken, it would not have mattered, the results should have been better based on the scorn thrown about on this forum.
One event does not make a trend, but it's nice to see that the sky hasn't fallen yet.
Coming up with a list is easy. A lot of them used a lot of Jetbikes, which you have to buy, assemble etc, which you might not be able to do in a week. We need to see the lists they used really.
This reminds me, I believe Reecius has a contest going on over at Frontline Gaming for anyone who can beat his Eldar jetbike/wraithknight army, I wonder how that's been going.
Reece beat five armies; drop marines, Centstar, Daemons, and Tau (can't remember that last one) with some pretty poor Eldar lists. He lost the sixth game (Khorne: Daemonkin) due to a mistake on his part. He forgot his troop weren't Obsec.
http://www.twitch.tv/frontlinegaming_tv/profile/past_broadcasts
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Post by: Thud
DCannon4Life wrote:The Problem of Vagueness operates when some dipstick says, 'One of X doesn't make a difference'. We demonstrate the absurdity of this premise by showing how it leads to, for example, a hairless man being classified as 'not-bald', because some dipstick said that pulling one hair off of a man's head doesn't make him bald.
Do YOU get that I'm making fun of posters that say this one tournament doesn't make a difference?
I do get that, but you don't seem to get why a tournament held one week after a release where at least 2 out of the 5 Eldar players weren't even using the new codex might not be super relevant in determining how a codex isn't OP? For all anyone here knows, none of the Eldar players might have been using the new codex. And, even if some of them did, it just might possibly be that they didn't have the time to assemble and paint 30 scatterbikes in six days. Which is, ya know, what people have been whining about with the new Eldar. In addition to the WK, of course. But that wasn't allowed in its new GC shape, so...
And as for your continued insistence on using the slippery slope fallacy, one data point is not very useful. One data point where you completely ignore any relevant variables is worse than meaningless; it is misleading at best.
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Post by: Talys
ImAGeek wrote:But one tournament doesn't make a difference. That one hair doesn't make a difference. If the original post had a few data points it would be different but coming in saying 'Eldar didn't win this one tournament so they aren't broken' is like saying 'we took one hair from this mans hair so he must be bald', to use your analogy. I agree. But if it's the same thing after 30 tournaments, the people who don't like Eldar will still not like Eldar. It's not that people don't like Eldar because they are awesome in tournaments. They don't like Eldar because it's easy for an unskilled, inexperienced player to overperform, and because (a) you can have a playable spammy list, something that isn't possible in most factions, and (b) it feels unfair that a faction has very few -- if any -- weak/broken units, because this isn't a feature of most factions. It's the same reason people don't like Tau. They're barely a blip in the competitive scoring scene, yet the Tau hate is strong because any idjut can play them  Likewise, you don't seem people ragging on Space Marines, even though they perform well, because they are not particularly easy to play, and mistakes in deployment or one round where you make a bad decision can cost you the game. Plus, even though you might score very well, usually, you don't get to table your opponent (very, very rarely in 6).
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Post by: Alpharius
Accolade wrote:DCannon4Life wrote:Do YOU get that I'm making fun of posters that say this one tournament doesn't make a difference?
There's your problem. You don't GET to make fun of other posters, it goes against Rule #1. Think your posting over before attacking another person over their opinion on plastic miniatures.
Pretty much what Accolade has written - but please keep in mind, everyone, that the oftentimes the best option is to use the MODERATOR ALERT button on any post that you think might be breaking the rules of the site.
It is NEVER OK to 'attack back' and make it personal.
Thanks!
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Post by: SilverDevilfish
Crimson Devil wrote: Accolade wrote: ImAGeek wrote:bullyboy wrote:I do find it funny that the Eldar bashers are now saying "the codex has only been out for a week" yet it took less than 30 minutes for these same people to come up with lists they think are all broken, lol.
If it is that broken, it would not have mattered, the results should have been better based on the scorn thrown about on this forum.
One event does not make a trend, but it's nice to see that the sky hasn't fallen yet.
Coming up with a list is easy. A lot of them used a lot of Jetbikes, which you have to buy, assemble etc, which you might not be able to do in a week. We need to see the lists they used really.
This reminds me, I believe Reecius has a contest going on over at Frontline Gaming for anyone who can beat his Eldar jetbike/wraithknight army, I wonder how that's been going.
Reece beat five armies; drop marines, Centstar, Daemons, and Tau (can't remember that last one) with some pretty poor Eldar lists. He lost the sixth game (Khorne: Daemonkin) due to a mistake on his part. He forgot his troop weren't Obsec.
http://www.twitch.tv/frontlinegaming_tv/profile/past_broadcasts
Last one was Bike Marines with 2 Sicarans and a Fire Raptor. Reece made a ton of lucky saves in that one though.
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Post by: Brothererekose
Two weeks of speculative internet ragequitrabblerabble proves nothing.
A few tourneys with eldar *not* taking top spots proves nothing.
A few tourneys with eldar ... ... taking top spots proves nothing.
What's to prove?
a. "Eldar are OP and will dominate/break the meta ... " etc.
b. "Eldar about the same in power as the last book and will win accordingly."
c. I won't even bother with 'it's a mid-tier/weak book' ...
How about 4 to 6 months of tourney data coming in? Maybe 3 GTs and a handful of RTTs? More?
How about common sense adjustments?**
... crickets ...
**
ITC did just that.
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Post by: Accolade
Brothererekose wrote:Two weeks of speculative internet ragequitrabblerabble proves nothing.
A few tourneys with eldar *not* taking top spots proves nothing.
A few tourneys with eldar ... ... taking top spots proves nothing.
What's to prove?
a. "Eldar are OP and will dominate/break the meta ... " etc.
b. "Eldar about the same in power as the last book and will win accordingly."
c. I won't even bother with 'it's a mid-tier/weak book' ...
How about 4 to 6 months of tourney data coming in? Maybe 3 GTs and a handful of RTTs? More?
How about common sense adjustments?**
... crickets ...
**
ITC did just that.

All we have to go on right now is one tournament that doesn't have the Eldar lists provided (to my knowledge). If there are 3-4 big tournaments where things go fine, sure I'll say that fears of the Eldar are overblown. But to come at it with just this one tournament with essentially no other information that "ELDAR DIDN'T WIN, YOUR FEARS WERE STUPID" is really not conducive to a reasonable conversation.
EDIT: one tournament just after release, and again it would help to see if the lists take advantage of what people feel is OP with the new Eldar book.
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Post by: Talys
The ITC nerf called for D-Weapon nerf, but they did NOT nerf scatter bikes. The vote was practically tied (with 760 for Yes, limit of 1/3, and 768 for No limit). The underline is mine: So, this is telling of quite a few things. First of all, I will say from a personal perspective that I am disappointed that this came to be as I genuinely believe that while Jetbikes won’t break 40k or anything hyperbolic like that, they will be the next Wave Serpents of 40k. Now granted, while I think the 6th ed Wave Serpents were arguably more impactful, Jetbikes with Scatter Lasers will be extremely prevalent and are too points efficient. They are not unbeatable by any stretch of the imagination, though. ... On the up side, this proves a number of important points. For one: those folks that are opposed to the ITC polls on the grounds that players only vote in their own self-interest should take note. Clearly, that is not the case. Gamers do not always vote simply to benefit themselves or hurt their opponents. As not everyone players Eldar, not even close to half of ITC members, we can see here that not everyone voted for their own interests. Players voted with their conscience. I have said over and over -- and playtested it too -- scatter bikes are easier to deal with than Wave Serpents, which were annoying but not game breaking by a long shot. The great thing with coming up against someone with a WS spam list in a PUG was that I *knew* that I not only could win, but would most likely win: I knew pretty much exactly what they would do, how they would deploy, etc. And, with a 1 LoW restriction, the new Wraithknights are less powerful than the old Wraithknights (because frankly, I'd rather have the ability to take 2 or 3 of the old ones). End of the day? I think you'll see fewer Eldar take top 3 in the current ITC format (with scatter bikes), than less.
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Post by: Slayer-Fan123
Talys wrote:
The ITC nerf called for D-Weapon nerf, but they did NOT nerf scatter bikes. The vote was practically tied (with 760 for Yes, limit of 1/3, and 768 for No limit).
The underline is mine:
So, this is telling of quite a few things. First of all, I will say from a personal perspective that I am disappointed that this came to be as I genuinely believe that while Jetbikes won’t break 40k or anything hyperbolic like that, they will be the next Wave Serpents of 40k. Now granted, while I think the 6th ed Wave Serpents were arguably more impactful, Jetbikes with Scatter Lasers will be extremely prevalent and are too points efficient. They are not unbeatable by any stretch of the imagination, though.
...
On the up side, this proves a number of important points. For one: those folks that are opposed to the ITC polls on the grounds that players only vote in their own self-interest should take note. Clearly, that is not the case. Gamers do not always vote simply to benefit themselves or hurt their opponents. As not everyone players Eldar, not even close to half of ITC members, we can see here that not everyone voted for their own interests. Players voted with their conscience.
I have said over and over -- and playtested it too -- scatter bikes are easier to deal with than Wave Serpents, which were annoying but not game breaking by a long shot. The great thing with coming up against someone with a WS spam list in a PUG was that I *knew* that I not only could win, but would most likely win: I knew pretty much exactly what they would do, how they would deploy, etc. And, with a 1 LoW restriction, the new Wraithknights are less powerful than the old Wraithknights (because frankly, I'd rather have the ability to take 2 or 3 of the old ones).
End of the day? I think you'll see fewer Eldar take top 3 in the current ITC format (with scatter bikes), than less.
Being able to take a second Wraithknight is NOT a big deal. Cheap HQ on a bike allows a second CAD, and if you were gonna buy six bike squads anyway just buy a second cheap HQ, split them in the middle, and buy that Wraithknight. Don't pretend they're less powerful.
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Post by: Yaavaragefinkinman
Everyones here talkin about the Eldar, and I'm just sitting here trying to understand what kind of ork list could come in first. Also whats with Necrons in 4 of the top 10 spots have their croisonts developed stealth tech? how didn't anyone notice that they were still damn powerful.
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Post by: ImAGeek
Yaavaragefinkinman wrote:Everyones here talkin about the Eldar, and I'm just sitting here trying to understand what kind of ork list could come in first. Were there just tons of mek guns?
A link to the Ork list was posted earlier.
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Post by: Mumblez
Yaavaragefinkinman wrote:Everyones here talkin about the Eldar, and I'm just sitting here trying to understand what kind of ork list could come in first. Were there just tons of mek guns?
It was a warbikers and tankbustas list. Zhadsnark da Rippa from FW with an almost maxed unit of warbikers, a warbiker boss with Da Lucky Stikk, some warbiker troops (courtesy of da Rippa) and then a Great Waaagh! detachment to get a warbiker big mek with Da Mega Force-Field (4++ against shooting for models within 6") and a warbiker boss with Da Big Bosspole for a Fearless deathstar unit. 2 min. squads of gretchin and 5 units of 8 tankbustas in trukks. I imagine the 'bustas went for first blood every game due to Glory Hogs and de-meched the opponent, the 4 min. squads of warbikers grabbed objectives along with the gretchin and the deathstar did what deathstars do.
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Post by: Sunhero
The winning Ork list is here: http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Chuck-Arnett-Best-Overall-Storm-of-Silence-Orks-2015.pdf
The forge world guy Warboss Zhadsnark Da Rippa gives them a 2+ up jink the lucky stick can make it 2+ reroll on jink so dont care about scatter bikes and power claws and tank busters kill knights.
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Post by: greatbigtree
Which kind of goes to show that bikes / jetbikes are the new hotness of 7th edition, more than anything. Bikes able to dish out high volume of mid strength firepower, with additional units designed to take out heavy armour. Hmmmm.... Scatterbikes + Wraithguard? Basically the same thing, on a "strategic" level?
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Post by: Talys
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Being able to take a second Wraithknight is NOT a big deal. Cheap HQ on a bike allows a second CAD, and if you were gonna buy six bike squads anyway just buy a second cheap HQ, split them in the middle, and buy that Wraithknight. Don't pretend they're less powerful. You are wrong -- or unfamiliar with ITC tournament rules (which is what I was talking about), which state: Regardless of Detachments, no more than 1 Fortification and/or 1 Super Heavy/Gargantuan Lord of War may be taken, chosen from the following list of allowed units. Before Eldar 7e, you could take 3 wraithknights if you wanted. 7e Eldar, Wraithknights are 0-1. You can never take 2, even if you take a second detachment. There are no exceptions at this point to permit more than 1 WK that I am aware of (in the ITC tournament format). My assertion is that 2-3 WK from 6e > 1 WK from 7e. The 6e WK was an awesome unit at an awesome price. My second assertion was that 6e WS > 7e Scatterbike. Taking it as a whole, 6e Wave Serpent + multiple WK spam > 7e Scatterbike + 1 Wraithknight. Even if you add Seer Council and jetbike Farseers, if you want to throw that in. In my humble opinion.
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Post by: Slayer-Fan123
Talys wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Being able to take a second Wraithknight is NOT a big deal. Cheap HQ on a bike allows a second CAD, and if you were gonna buy six bike squads anyway just buy a second cheap HQ, split them in the middle, and buy that Wraithknight. Don't pretend they're less powerful.
You are wrong -- or unfamiliar with ITC tournament rules (which is what I was talking about), which state:
Regardless of Detachments, no more than 1 Fortification and/or 1 Super Heavy/Gargantuan Lord of War may be taken, chosen from the following list of allowed units.
Before Eldar 7e, you could take 3 wraithknights if you wanted. 7e Eldar, Wraithknights are 0-1. You can never take 2, even if you take a second detachment.
There are no exceptions at this point to permit more than 1 WK that I am aware of (in the ITC tournament format). My assertion is that 2-3 WK from 6e > 1 WK from 7e. The 6e WK was an awesome unit at an awesome price. My second assertion was that 6e WS > 7e Scatterbike.
Taking it as a whole, 6e Wave Serpent + multiple WK spam > 7e Scatterbike + 1 Wraithknight. Even if you add Seer Council and jetbike Farseers, if you want to throw that in. In my humble opinion.
So basically when you have to throw restrictions on everything, because god forbid GW write some decent balanced rules, 6e Wave Serpent + multiple WK spam > 7e Scatterbike + 1 Wraithknight.
That's pretty absurd logic, don't you think?
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Post by: chanceafs
ImAGeek wrote:But one tournament doesn't make a difference. That one hair doesn't make a difference. If the original post had a few data points it would be different but coming in saying 'Eldar didn't win this one tournament so they aren't broken' is like saying 'we took one hair from this mans hair so he must be bald', to use your analogy.
So the question is, if one tournament doesn't make a difference, how many tournaments will? And more importantly how many tournaments have actually been 'ruined' by the brokenness of this codex?
ONe piece of evidence may not be conclusive, but if it's more than the opposition has provided, then who has the weaker argument?
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Post by: ImAGeek
chanceafs wrote: ImAGeek wrote:But one tournament doesn't make a difference. That one hair doesn't make a difference. If the original post had a few data points it would be different but coming in saying 'Eldar didn't win this one tournament so they aren't broken' is like saying 'we took one hair from this mans hair so he must be bald', to use your analogy.
So the question is, if one tournament doesn't make a difference, how many tournaments will? And more importantly how many tournaments have actually been 'ruined' by the brokenness of this codex?
ONe piece of evidence may not be conclusive, but if it's more than the opposition has provided, then who has the weaker argument?
Still the person saying 'this one piece of half evidence proves everything!' Most people who were complaining about the Eldar dex were because you can tell something's power before you play it, most of the time, so actually, they had proof. The codex.
Either way, I do think declaring the competitive scene ruined by Eldar before games have even been played is silly. I just think trying to claim everyone was wrong about it based on one tournament one week after the codex dropped is sillier.
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Post by: Ghazkuul
I think the point some people here are trying to make is that this tournament had severe restrictions on 7th edition Eldar and on top of that the 5 players who were eldar had the opportunity to play as 6th edition Eldar. SO, that teamed with the fact that this is only a single sample, and without even statistics on the lists that the Eldar players brought, it is not really relevant when talking about whether or not the Eldar codex is Ridiculously broken or just regularly broken.
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Post by: chanceafs
ImAGeek wrote:chanceafs wrote: ImAGeek wrote:But one tournament doesn't make a difference. That one hair doesn't make a difference. If the original post had a few data points it would be different but coming in saying 'Eldar didn't win this one tournament so they aren't broken' is like saying 'we took one hair from this mans hair so he must be bald', to use your analogy.
So the question is, if one tournament doesn't make a difference, how many tournaments will? And more importantly how many tournaments have actually been 'ruined' by the brokenness of this codex?
ONe piece of evidence may not be conclusive, but if it's more than the opposition has provided, then who has the weaker argument?
Still the person saying 'this one piece of half evidence proves everything!' Most people who were complaining about the Eldar dex were because you can tell something's power before you play it, most of the time, so actually, they had proof. The codex.
Either way, I do think declaring the competitive scene ruined by Eldar before games have even been played is silly. I just think trying to claim everyone was wrong about it based on one tournament one week after the codex dropped is sillier.
I agree that the OP was probably far more sweeping in his statements then he should have been, but the hyperbole and vitriol surrounding this new codex has been so extreme, that it's been rather difficult to take a measured and/or calm approach to the situation. IT seems that anybody who attempts to is either summarily ignored, or assumed to be in the extreme opposite whoever is reading their post. (Kind of like politics when you think about it).
Maybe we should all just wait until a few more tournaments have come in and the meta has had a chance to adjust before arguing about whether or not the sky has fallen.
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Post by: Ghazkuul
Well, unless the tournaments severely restrict the Eldar codex I think we can safely assume they will be playing better at tournaments then last codex (MY OPINION) but yes we should wait for more tourny data. However, the hatred i think is probably the weirdest part of this whole thing. Everyone should be pissed at GW not at the Eldar players. They weren't the ones screaming for buffs, they weren't the ones writing the codex. So why the hatred?
Though only bad feelings I have towards Eldar players are the handful that are trying to defend the codex buffs saying nothing changed. At the very least you can admit that the codex got buffed pretty much across the board.
anyway, my two cents. Happy Wargaming everyone
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Post by: Vaktathi
Sunhero wrote:The results for the 50+ two day ict tournament are in with only one of the new Eldar coming in the top ten.
They will probably still prove to be a top tier army but they will not be completely dominant as some of the hysteria suggested.
Storm of Silence 2015 Results: http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Results-Storm_WLDsort.pdf
orks won. necrons and skitarii came second, with four necrons in top ten.
I understand that one data point is not a pattern but this shows you cant just turn up with 40 scatter bikes a wraithknight and some
D-Scythes and beat every one.
So many holes in this.
Do we know if they were using the old codex or new codex? Do we know what the Eldar lists were? Do we know there were any scatterbike+Wraith unit lists?
You can't say this disproves anything without having some sort of proof that a list "with 40 scatter bikes a wraithknight and some D-Scythes" was even present.
This event is also an ITC event, which has rules and restrictions that don't apply outside of said event, and with things like Invisibility and Destroyer significantly nerfed.
TL;DR These results don't tell us squat.
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Post by: niv-mizzet
I'm still amazed that people can take Swiss tournaments as gospel truth. The entire point behind Swiss style is that it's used when you don't have time to play EVERYONE, so instead the tournament design "assumes" that you would beat anyone you outrank by default, even though that's probably hilariously false in a 40k Swiss.
To put it a short way. In a 6 round 50 man Swiss, you don't have to beat the other 49 people. You just have to beat 6.
It is possible to bring a rock-list, and keep getting matched against scissors lists, who themselves had been eating paper lists until they each ran into you. You can in fact win a 50 man 6 round Swiss tourney where 43 of the other competitors would have wrecked you.
Onto eldar. Tourney players aren't as crazy as people think. We don't buy $500 of models and get them painted overnight as soon as a codex/supplement drops just to make sure we win every event ever. Those guys are super-rare, like not even "one-at-every-event."
Also not everyone is willing to be branded as "TFG WAAC player" just to get a good shot at winning a few hundred bucks of store credit.
And there is still SOME learning to do, even with super lists. Identifying when to reserve and not reserve bikes, for example. Also slight list optimizations that weren't totally obvious to you in the first 20 minutes of reading the codex.
You're going to see the same thing in a few months with eldar that we're seeing with necrons now. As people slowly update their tourney lists with new scatbikes etc, and get in the small required amount of practice, you'll start noticing more and more eldar victories.
If you look back at lvo when the crons came out, and the couple ITC events right after, they didn't do so hot overall either. In the more recent event results, they now crowd the top tables.
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Post by: Dakkamite
WAAAAAAAGH!!!!
Prepare your anuses for your new greenskin overlords, gits
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Post by: Ashiraya
It's those damn Nobs man, they are too strong together with Ghazghkull.
Gotta seriously increase the points cost of both or they will continue to stomp tournaments.
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Post by: Purifier
I'm joining the greenskin bandwagon, since they are obviously the currently most powerful codex!
Watch out humies, here comes the newest Ork
Gonna stomp your tourneys like the Foot of Gork!
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Post by: Talys
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
So basically when you have to throw restrictions on everything, because god forbid GW write some decent balanced rules, 6e Wave Serpent + multiple WK spam > 7e Scatterbike + 1 Wraithknight.
That's pretty absurd logic, don't you think?
Very few people play RAW, because in such cases, Unbound would be legal. We're talking specifically about the tournament scene and tournament results. In the tournament scene, prior to Codex: Craftworlds, most tournaments had a restriction on Superheavy/Gargantuan Lords of War to 1 (and a bonus if you don't use one, and your opponent does).
What I have been saying is that under the ITC Tournament format, making no other changes, 7e Eldar are weaker than 6e Eldar as an ITC Tournament faction when specifically comparing Wave Serpents and Wraithknights to Scatterbikes and Wraithknights. I'm being extremely narrow in the comparison, because let's be honest, 2 months ago, what everyone complained about was the Eldar TFG who loaded up on wave serpents and Wraithknights.
I will repeat again: Wave Serpents and Wraithknights (and Scatterbikes + 1 Wraithknight) are not game breaking lists, and are not even super spectacular awesome. They can be handled by skilled players with competitive lists that are NOT tailored just for Eldar spam -- as proven in ITC results, as you can't change your list to fit your opponent. They're just really easy to play, and advantage noobish players desirous of an easy win against noobish-to-intermediate players.
It's like the MtG player who grabs powerful list off the Internet, and buys those specific cards. They'll overperform destroy unskilled or poorly equipped players, and be destroyed against skilled players, who usually don't play exactly a netdeck anyhow. Why? Because their opponent will see what they have, recognize that they aren't very good, and be able to predict exactly what they're going to do.
Now, if we step back from the precipice of spam decks, again, specific to the ITC format and latest rule changes, 7e Windriders are better than 6e Windriders -- significantly so -- and a 7e Wraithknight is better than 6e Wraithknight, with the major caveat that you can only take 1. Overall, are 7e Eldar tougher or not? The Wraithknight "nerf" to being a Gargantuan LoW is a big one. But since they have a lot of cool stuff, I would say, "we don't know yet". My gut tells me that they're better than before, just not in an epic, "I win button" sort of way. Automatically Appended Next Post: Purifier wrote:I'm joining the greenskin bandwagon, since they are obviously the currently most powerful codex!
Watch out humies, here comes the newest Ork
Gonna stomp your tourneys like the Foot of Gork!
Nerf the Orks!!! They are obviously an OP faction. 8e should reduce all Ork shooting ranges to 1". Automatically Appended Next Post: Vaktathi wrote:
This event is also an ITC event, which has rules and restrictions that don't apply outside of said event, and with things like Invisibility and Destroyer significantly nerfed.
TL;DR These results don't tell us squat.
I think this event happened before Destroyer got nerfed. I agree that the results are not terribly meaningful, but assuming at least 1 player played 7e Eldar, we should at least concede that Eldar aren't now so powerful that any idjut playing Eldar can just declare victory before the game starts. That was kind of the prevailing theory going around
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Post by: ImAGeek
Well no, because while I agree that statement is over the top, it was specific lists being said to be auto win, and we don't know the list that 7e Eldar players took at this tournament.
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Post by: zerosignal
Nobody commenting on the fact 50% of the t8 were Necrons?...
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Post by: Xenomancers
It's really not a question of will eldar break competitive play. There is no question that they will. They are hands down better than anything else that isn't decruion and their match-up vs decruion is laughably one sided in favor of eldar. It is not a question - it is fact. For top end tournaments where everything is expected to be painted to a pro level - it's not realistic to assume that craft-world armies are ready for competition.
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Post by: chanceafs
Xenomancers wrote:It's really not a question of will eldar break competitive play. There is no question that they will. They are hands down better than anything else that isn't decruion and their match-up vs decruion is laughably one sided in favor of eldar. It is not a question - it is fact. For top end tournaments where everything is expected to be painted to a pro level - it's not realistic to assume that craft-world armies are ready for competition.
If by 'fact' you mean, 'currently untested hypothesis', then yes... it is most definitely a fact.
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Post by: Bharring
Remember how everyone said Necrons were going to dominate?
Then, after the next tourney came out and they didn't, some people said they would be fine, and others said to give it a month?
Now, are we seeing them do quite well (50% of top 8).
That does strongly suggest that this set of data is inconclusive at best. In fact, that should have been obvious before we saw the data.
(I still think CW Eldar will dominate, but it'll remain a theory - even if a strong one - for now.)
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Post by: zerosignal
chanceafs wrote: Xenomancers wrote:It's really not a question of will eldar break competitive play. There is no question that they will. They are hands down better than anything else that isn't decruion and their match-up vs decruion is laughably one sided in favor of eldar. It is not a question - it is fact. For top end tournaments where everything is expected to be painted to a pro level - it's not realistic to assume that craft-world armies are ready for competition.
If by 'fact' you mean, 'currently untested hypothesis', then yes... it is most definitely a fact.
Do you have playtesting results to back up these statements, Xenomancers?
Not being rude- just curious?
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Post by: Xenomancers
zerosignal wrote:chanceafs wrote: Xenomancers wrote:It's really not a question of will eldar break competitive play. There is no question that they will. They are hands down better than anything else that isn't decruion and their match-up vs decruion is laughably one sided in favor of eldar. It is not a question - it is fact. For top end tournaments where everything is expected to be painted to a pro level - it's not realistic to assume that craft-world armies are ready for competition.
If by 'fact' you mean, 'currently untested hypothesis', then yes... it is most definitely a fact.
Do you have playtesting results to back up these statements, Xenomancers?
Not being rude- just curious?
Play testing is not required to see stats/ weapons costing less. It's not a hypothesis. It is a mathematical certainty. Kinda like saying that a pair of kings will beat a pair of queens about 82% of the time. It's really not necessary to play the hand 1000 times to figure that out.
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Post by: Bharring
Its more like comparing AJ offsuit to 34 suited.
Might not be rocket science, but before you try it out, its just a theory. After you try it out its a well-tested theory.
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Post by: Blacksails
So, a tournament with quite a few restrictions that directly limit Eldar's capability is being used to show us that Eldar aren't overpowered?
Okay...
Its kind of hard to use a tournament with any restrictions and claim that X is or isn't broken.
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Post by: chanceafs
Xenomancers wrote:zerosignal wrote:chanceafs wrote: Xenomancers wrote:It's really not a question of will eldar break competitive play. There is no question that they will. They are hands down better than anything else that isn't decruion and their match-up vs decruion is laughably one sided in favor of eldar. It is not a question - it is fact. For top end tournaments where everything is expected to be painted to a pro level - it's not realistic to assume that craft-world armies are ready for competition.
If by 'fact' you mean, 'currently untested hypothesis', then yes... it is most definitely a fact.
Do you have playtesting results to back up these statements, Xenomancers?
Not being rude- just curious?
Play testing is not required to see stats/ weapons costing less. It's not a hypothesis. It is a mathematical certainty. Kinda like saying that a pair of kings will beat a pair of queens about 82% of the time. It's really not necessary to play the hand 1000 times to figure that out.
Firstly, unless there is a rule in the ELdar codex that literally says... if you but this model on the table you win the game, then the comparsion of queens and kings is completely irrelevent.
Secondly... if you've every played poker, you'd know that a pair of Queens can easily beat a pair of kings... when the person with the queens bluffs the other player into folding his kings.
If games of 40K ended in mathematical certainty there would be no point in playing... the codex is only one small cog in a very large machine that includes the actual army list, the terrrain, the tactics and skill level of the players and the dice all determine the outcome of a game. All the mathhammer and averages in the world doesn't stop you from losing terminators to lasgun fire because you rolled 5 1's on 6 dice.
Is the new codex very strong? Yes. Does it give the eldar player a more useful toolbox than his opponent? Yes. Does this mean Eldar will win 100% of their games. Not even remotely. People and dice win games, not codexes and math.
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Post by: Arbiter_Shade
chanceafs wrote: Xenomancers wrote:zerosignal wrote:chanceafs wrote: Xenomancers wrote:It's really not a question of will eldar break competitive play. There is no question that they will. They are hands down better than anything else that isn't decruion and their match-up vs decruion is laughably one sided in favor of eldar. It is not a question - it is fact. For top end tournaments where everything is expected to be painted to a pro level - it's not realistic to assume that craft-world armies are ready for competition.
If by 'fact' you mean, 'currently untested hypothesis', then yes... it is most definitely a fact.
Do you have playtesting results to back up these statements, Xenomancers?
Not being rude- just curious?
Play testing is not required to see stats/ weapons costing less. It's not a hypothesis. It is a mathematical certainty. Kinda like saying that a pair of kings will beat a pair of queens about 82% of the time. It's really not necessary to play the hand 1000 times to figure that out.
Firstly, unless there is a rule in the ELdar codex that literally says... if you but this model on the table you win the game, then the comparsion of queens and kings is completely irrelevent.
Secondly... if you've every played poker, you'd know that a pair of Queens can easily beat a pair of kings... when the person with the queens bluffs the other player into folding his kings.
If games of 40K ended in mathematical certainty there would be no point in playing... the codex is only one small cog in a very large machine that includes the actual army list, the terrrain, the tactics and skill level of the players and the dice all determine the outcome of a game. All the mathhammer and averages in the world doesn't stop you from losing terminators to lasgun fire because you rolled 5 1's on 6 dice.
Is the new codex very strong? Yes. Does it give the eldar player a more useful toolbox than his opponent? Yes. Does this mean Eldar will win 100% of their games. Not even remotely. People and dice win games, not codexes and math.
I feel like you have a very romanticized view of 40k.
This game is very often won and lost at the list building phase, more so than any other table top game I know. It is very easy to see who is going to win in a given situation when looking at their list, it is not 100% certainty but I would put it close to 80% of the game is played in the list building phase. Table set up has little to do with it other than skewing the game more towards shooting, which again has to do with the list being played and not player skill. Arguing that outliers, like rolling five 1's on six dice isn't an argument against a codex being more powerful than others. If I have to rely on my opponent rolling an absurd amount of bad rolls in order for the game to be balanced then we know something is horribly wrong.
The amount of player agency in 40k is marginalized constantly by the rules, we roll for our psychic powers, our warlord traits, our objectives. We can make decisions based on those things but it really boils down to some fairly simple yes/no decisions that don't require a second thought. 40k is a very fast and deadly game where unless you are playing Necrons you have to assume that killing your opponent quickly is your primary goal with holding objectives is secondary, a dead opponent can't take you off objectives for how ever many turns are left giving you free reign of tactical objectives, that are anything but really...
Finally...dice win games but math doesn't? Dice are math, it is probability and we make our decisions as players based on that probability. No one fires your mythical six lasguns at a group of terminators and expects to hit, wound, and see five 1's come up on armor rolls.
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Post by: Rune Stonegrinder
Mozzyfuzzy wrote:
and again, what list was used?, who did they play against? etc etc.
There's a reason I hate this sort of "surface" data, it doesn't show you what actually happened.
nor does it tell us if said players were veterns, rookies, or Profesional tournament WAAC players. its bogus data.
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Post by: Xenomancers
chanceafs wrote: Xenomancers wrote:zerosignal wrote:chanceafs wrote: Xenomancers wrote:It's really not a question of will eldar break competitive play. There is no question that they will. They are hands down better than anything else that isn't decruion and their match-up vs decruion is laughably one sided in favor of eldar. It is not a question - it is fact. For top end tournaments where everything is expected to be painted to a pro level - it's not realistic to assume that craft-world armies are ready for competition.
If by 'fact' you mean, 'currently untested hypothesis', then yes... it is most definitely a fact.
Do you have playtesting results to back up these statements, Xenomancers?
Not being rude- just curious?
Play testing is not required to see stats/ weapons costing less. It's not a hypothesis. It is a mathematical certainty. Kinda like saying that a pair of kings will beat a pair of queens about 82% of the time. It's really not necessary to play the hand 1000 times to figure that out.
Firstly, unless there is a rule in the ELdar codex that literally says... if you but this model on the table you win the game, then the comparsion of queens and kings is completely irrelevent.
Secondly... if you've every played poker, you'd know that a pair of Queens can easily beat a pair of kings... when the person with the queens bluffs the other player into folding his kings.
If games of 40K ended in mathematical certainty there would be no point in playing... the codex is only one small cog in a very large machine that includes the actual army list, the terrrain, the tactics and skill level of the players and the dice all determine the outcome of a game. All the mathhammer and averages in the world doesn't stop you from losing terminators to lasgun fire because you rolled 5 1's on 6 dice.
Is the new codex very strong? Yes. Does it give the eldar player a more useful toolbox than his opponent? Yes. Does this mean Eldar will win 100% of their games. Not even remotely. People and dice win games, not codexes and math.
I'm refering to texas holdem where it's likely both of these hands are ether all in before the flop or so far committed to the pot that they could not fold. It very unlikely a poket kings would ever fold their hand unless the board was suited with 4 cards of a suit he didn't have. In any case it is still extremely relevant if eldar are kings and everyone else is queens - eldar will win 80% - because that would break the competitive scene. I'm not sure what the actual power level of the eldar is over the other armies - there is no question that it is considerably higher though. That's all I'm saying.
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Post by: chanceafs
Arbiter_Shade wrote:
I feel like you have a very romanticized view of 40k.
This game is very often won and lost at the list building phase, more so than any other table top game I know. It is very easy to see who is going to win in a given situation when looking at their list, it is not 100% certainty but I would put it close to 80% of the game is played in the list building phase. Table set up has little to do with it other than skewing the game more towards shooting, which again has to do with the list being played and not player skill. Arguing that outliers, like rolling five 1's on six dice isn't an argument against a codex being more powerful than others. If I have to rely on my opponent rolling an absurd amount of bad rolls in order for the game to be balanced then we know something is horribly wrong.
The amount of player agency in 40k is marginalized constantly by the rules, we roll for our psychic powers, our warlord traits, our objectives. We can make decisions based on those things but it really boils down to some fairly simple yes/no decisions that don't require a second thought. 40k is a very fast and deadly game where unless you are playing Necrons you have to assume that killing your opponent quickly is your primary goal with holding objectives is secondary, a dead opponent can't take you off objectives for how ever many turns are left giving you free reign of tactical objectives, that are anything but really...
Finally...dice win games but math doesn't? Dice are math, it is probability and we make our decisions as players based on that probability. No one fires your mythical six lasguns at a group of terminators and expects to hit, wound, and see five 1's come up on armor rolls.
Math and probability tell you what the dice should roll... not what the dice will roll. 86% chance of success is still a 14% chance of failure, and the dice rolling you into that 14% will lose you the game no matter what your mathammer predicted. You may not expect it to happen, but sometimes it does and you still have to deal with that outcome. Probability is math... dice are still random. That's the entire point.
And how is it that you claim that the game is won at the list building phae, and then turn around and say that player agency has little impact? Player agency is at it's strongest while you are building your list. The player chooses which units they are going to buy on the board, and they choose those units, and the upgrades to purchase, based on how they plan to use them, and how well they think (or hope or plan) those units will do.
And even then the best army in the world will lose hard, if the person running it makes the wrong decisions. Or if the dice roll against them. Automatically Appended Next Post: Call me naive, or a romantic if you will, but if the game is as cut and dry as you claim, then what is the point of putting models on the table in the first place?
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Post by: Ghazkuul
I think the biggest thing everyone should take away from this is that literally every unit in the Eldar codex got a buff....except Wave Serpents. Whose nerf is realistically minor compared to previous nerfs other codex's have faced.
So without pulling out all sorts of math hammer formula's can everyone just take a second to admit that to themselves? If Eldar were good previously, and now everything in the army got better, it is only logical that Eldar will be harder to beat now. Fair enough?
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Post by: chanceafs
Ghazkuul wrote:I think the biggest thing everyone should take away from this is that literally every unit in the Eldar codex got a buff....except Wave Serpents. Whose nerf is realistically minor compared to previous nerfs other codex's have faced.
So without pulling out all sorts of math hammer formula's can everyone just take a second to admit that to themselves? If Eldar were good previously, and now everything in the army got better, it is only logical that Eldar will be harder to beat now. Fair enough?
I may be wrong, but I don't think anybody is disputing that. It is very clear that GW took an already strong codex and made it stronger. What I, and many others are disputing, is the idea that this stronger codex will so completely break the game as to make 40K unplayable, or that players who happen to use the codex they were given should be shunned like lepers, whether or not they choose exploit the strongest parts of that codex.
We have scene codexes that were more powerful than anything in the meta hit before. This isn't the first time, and it won't be the last.
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Post by: Wonderwolf
chanceafs wrote:
We have scene codexes that were more powerful than anything in the meta hit before. This isn't the first time, and it won't be the last.
Well, banning Eldar has been a pretty good quick-fix to mitigating some of the worst balancing-issues in most editions of the past, with 5th arguably being the exception.
Not the first time. Not the last. So keeping Eldar banned on principle from now until the end of time (simply ignoring fluke-editions like 5th) seems like a good idea
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Post by: Xenomancers
"but if the game is as cut and dry as you claim, then what is the point of putting models on the table in the first place?"
That sir - is the real question.
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Post by: chanceafs
Wonderwolf wrote:chanceafs wrote:
We have scene codexes that were more powerful than anything in the meta hit before. This isn't the first time, and it won't be the last.
Well, banning Eldar has been a pretty good quick-fix to mitigating some of the worst balancing-issues in most editions of the past, with 5th arguably being the exception.
Not the first time. Not the last. So keeping Eldar banned on principle from now until the end of time (simply ignoring fluke-editions like 5th) seems like a good idea
Ok, ban Eldar... now look, Necrons are more powerful then anything anybody else can bring... I guess we should ban them...
Well all of the Imperium can be Battle Brothers with each other and get access to the most silly things from every single book, to include Imperial Knights... I guess the emporer should stop exerting his will from here on out...
Shall we keep going? Automatically Appended Next Post: Xenomancers wrote:"but if the game is as cut and dry as you claim, then what is the point of putting models on the table in the first place?"
That sir - is the real question.
And if that is a question that you can't come up with an answer too, then why are you on the forums dedicated to a game you have no interest in playing?
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Post by: Xenomancers
chanceafs wrote:Wonderwolf wrote:chanceafs wrote:
We have scene codexes that were more powerful than anything in the meta hit before. This isn't the first time, and it won't be the last.
Well, banning Eldar has been a pretty good quick-fix to mitigating some of the worst balancing-issues in most editions of the past, with 5th arguably being the exception.
Not the first time. Not the last. So keeping Eldar banned on principle from now until the end of time (simply ignoring fluke-editions like 5th) seems like a good idea
Ok, ban Eldar... now look, Necrons are more powerful then anything anybody else can bring... I guess we should ban them...
Well all of the Imperium can be Battle Brothers with each other and get access to the most silly things from every single book, to include Imperial Knights... I guess the emporer should stop exerting his will from here on out...
Shall we keep going?
I'd just say this - tournaments don't matter at all right now unitl all book reach the power level of crons and eldar. It's rather pointless to compete against these armies.
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Post by: Purifier
Xenomancers wrote:
I'd just say this - tournaments don't matter at all right now unitl all book reach the power level of crons and eldar. It's rather pointless to compete against these armies.
That's not true at all. Tournaments is exactly where the power level can actually be mitigated by using tournament restrictions.
I feel like it's in random games the power levels matter.
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Post by: Xenomancers
chanceafs wrote:Wonderwolf wrote:chanceafs wrote:
We have scene codexes that were more powerful than anything in the meta hit before. This isn't the first time, and it won't be the last.
Well, banning Eldar has been a pretty good quick-fix to mitigating some of the worst balancing-issues in most editions of the past, with 5th arguably being the exception.
Not the first time. Not the last. So keeping Eldar banned on principle from now until the end of time (simply ignoring fluke-editions like 5th) seems like a good idea
Ok, ban Eldar... now look, Necrons are more powerful then anything anybody else can bring... I guess we should ban them...
Well all of the Imperium can be Battle Brothers with each other and get access to the most silly things from every single book, to include Imperial Knights... I guess the emporer should stop exerting his will from here on out...
Shall we keep going?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Xenomancers wrote:"but if the game is as cut and dry as you claim, then what is the point of putting models on the table in the first place?"
That sir - is the real question.
And if that is a question that you can't come up with an answer too, then why are you on the forums dedicated to a game you have no interest in playing?
It's not that I don't have interest in playing, I've invested a lot of time and money into my models and I like to play with them. The competitive side of the game is exactly as stated above. It's mostly list building and not a lot of skill involved at all. After deployment the games moves have basically already been determined and it's just a stats grinder at that point. The better stats win more than the weaker stats. I'm okay with the game being mostly about list building in competitive play I'm not okay competing against these new wave armies with old codex it's just not intended.
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Post by: Bharring
One of the things that tourney did show us was that *Orkz* could hold their own against Necrons (among others...)
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Post by: niv-mizzet
Bharring wrote:One of the things that tourney did show us was that *Orkz* could hold their own against Necrons (among others...)
But it didn't show us that. Because it's Swiss style. He may not have even touched a cron army, and he almost certainly didn't touch an eldar one, since none of them made it past round 2 undefeated, they were no longer possible matchups for him. It is entirely possible he danced through all the crons without playing one as well. Can anyone show us his actual opponents and their lists?
At a 6 round Swiss tourney, you don't have to beat all the other players to win. You just have to beat 6 of them. Because of the tournament style's "assumption" that your w/l record puts you above people you haven't played against, it's possible to win a 50 man tourney where 43 of the opponents would crush you. (Not likely, but possible.)
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Post by: Konrax
Some interesting discussions here.
I vote to ban all codex's except for Dark Angels.
That way a codex that should get some love will get some attention.
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Post by: Exergy
Sunhero wrote:The results for the 50+ two day ict tournament are in with only one of the new Eldar coming in the top ten.
They will probably still prove to be a top tier army but they will not be completely dominant as some of the hysteria suggested.
Storm of Silence 2015 Results: http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Results-Storm_WLDsort.pdf
orks won. necrons and skitarii came second, with four necrons in top ten.
I understand that one data point is not a pattern but this shows you cant just turn up with 40 scatter bikes a wraithknight and some
D-Scythes and beat every one.
It was cold yesterday so Global Warming must be false!
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Post by: Talys
Xenomancers wrote:It's really not a question of will eldar break competitive play. There is no question that they will. They are hands down better than anything else that isn't decruion and their match-up vs decruion is laughably one sided in favor of eldar. It is not a question - it is fact. For top end tournaments where everything is expected to be painted to a pro level - it's not realistic to assume that craft-world armies are ready for competition.
Sorry, but I don't agree with anything you say here. I don't think Eldar are better hands down than everything other than Decurion, and I don't think Eldar v Necron is a foregone conclusion. I have no idea how you can call that a fact. And I don't know what you mean a "pro level" of painting, but I've never heard of a tournament where someone wasn't allowed to play because their reasonably painted, table-top standard models were considered too poor a paintjob. I mean, that would be such an donkey-cave thing to say to someone: "Sorry man, you can't play, coz your paintjob sucks. LOSER!" Really? I can't even imagine it.
Xenomancers wrote:It's not that I don't have interest in playing, I've invested a lot of time and money into my models and I like to play with them. The competitive side of the game is exactly as stated above. It's mostly list building and not a lot of skill involved at all. After deployment the games moves have basically already been determined and it's just a stats grinder at that point. The better stats win more than the weaker stats. I'm okay with the game being mostly about list building in competitive play I'm not okay competing against these new wave armies with old codex it's just not intended.
List building is a HUGE part of the game. But there IS skill involved both before building the list and after. The only time there isn't skill is when you play one of these brainless spammy builds -- you know, park Wave Serpents against the back edge of the table with no rear armor facing the game, shoot, move wave serpents forward just out of range, shoot, move wave serpents forward just out of range, shoot.
If you think that games are determined at deployment, well, I disagree. Some games, sure. Some matchups are bad, and the odds are poor even before deployment. And if you look at two armies just taken out carrying cases, you can often see that one is hopelessly outclassed. But most competitive lists are reasonably flexible, and are designed not to auto-lose against anything. Aside from obvious factors that have a huge role (like experience, and knowing which fights you're likely to win, and which fights are a bad idea), knowing special rules and being familiar with your opponent's faction -- which is not a foregone conclusion -- you're totally ignoring special abilities like deep strike, teleportation, infiltrate, scout, and outflank; how people use psychic powers.
In the current ITC tournament format, I don't think it's **impossible** for any faction to win. In fact, I believe just about every major faction (excluding ones that people rarely play like Sisters and Harlequins) has placed in the top 3 within a reasonable period. Sure, some factions perform better than others.
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Post by: greatbigtree
Necrons are the first "Post Decurion" codex, by virtue of containing the Decurion Detachment. It's powerful. It also contains models that people, for the most part, had anyway.
Not everyone has many Wraithguard. Not everyone has their old-school JB's equipped with 100% Scatter Lasers. So while the Necrons have had some time to get their feet under them, the Eldar codex did not have that luxury at that time.
I don't know if Decurion Necrons are better than Scatter-D Eldar. I can say that I believe they're the two best codices that I'm aware of, by a wide margin. Necrons are the immovable object, while Eldar are the unstoppable force. Who wins?
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Post by: Toofast
chanceafs wrote: Xenomancers wrote:zerosignal wrote:chanceafs wrote: Xenomancers wrote:It's really not a question of will eldar break competitive play. There is no question that they will. They are hands down better than anything else that isn't decruion and their match-up vs decruion is laughably one sided in favor of eldar. It is not a question - it is fact. For top end tournaments where everything is expected to be painted to a pro level - it's not realistic to assume that craft-world armies are ready for competition.
If by 'fact' you mean, 'currently untested hypothesis', then yes... it is most definitely a fact.
Do you have playtesting results to back up these statements, Xenomancers?
Not being rude- just curious?
Play testing is not required to see stats/ weapons costing less. It's not a hypothesis. It is a mathematical certainty. Kinda like saying that a pair of kings will beat a pair of queens about 82% of the time. It's really not necessary to play the hand 1000 times to figure that out.
Firstly, unless there is a rule in the ELdar codex that literally says... if you but this model on the table you win the game, then the comparsion of queens and kings is completely irrelevent.
Secondly... if you've every played poker, you'd know that a pair of Queens can easily beat a pair of kings... when the person with the queens bluffs the other player into folding his kings.
If games of 40K ended in mathematical certainty there would be no point in playing... the codex is only one small cog in a very large machine that includes the actual army list, the terrrain, the tactics and skill level of the players and the dice all determine the outcome of a game. All the mathhammer and averages in the world doesn't stop you from losing terminators to lasgun fire because you rolled 5 1's on 6 dice.
Is the new codex very strong? Yes. Does it give the eldar player a more useful toolbox than his opponent? Yes. Does this mean Eldar will win 100% of their games. Not even remotely. People and dice win games, not codexes and math.
This is a good point. A few weeks ago my friends 3++ riptide took 15 grav shots and 18 hurricane bolter shots to the face and lived. Then I shot it with a storm bolter from a drop pod and killed it.
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