I keep getting emails from the GW about their new releases, and at first I thought there must be something wrong with my brain, as I am seeing horrifying price increases across the board. Army deals now seem to be starting at £250 and running upwards of £450, and (I can barely even conceive of this) I've just seen a standard Space Marine assault squad being advertised for pre-order at £50!
£50!
I'm guessing for this price they're hand-delivered in a golden Land Speeder and Rachael Leigh Cook gets out, kisses you passionately in front of all your friends then leads you to your bedroom for some saucy loving action, walks out of your house in a daze loudly proclaiming you as the best lover who ever lived, and the actual assault squad itself is hand-carved from jade by surviving Olmec wizards who are half-man, half-alien, and are prepared to share their secrets of telekinesis and longevity with you and only you - and Jervis Johnson pays your gas and electricity bills for the next six months?
There's no way in the world that these are just ten plastic models that have been available for the last ten or fifteen years, just given a makeover, and I assume that all new Space Marine armies henceforth will no longer include assault squads at all?
Weren't Space Marine Assault Squads £25 for 5 guys anyway? This is just like buying two boxes I guess? £5 for a single plastic non-character miniature does hurt though, that's pretty extortionate.
Funny enough, the models I do buy are a tad more expensive per 10 guys than what I would get buying from GW. However, the models I do buy are completely customizable, have the exact bits/weapons I want in the exact quantity I want, are of a much higher sculpt/detail quality, and come from a small team of people who engage with the community.
Funny enough, the models I do buy are a tad more expensive per 10 guys than what I would get buying from GW. However, the models I do buy are completely customizable, have the exact bits/weapons I want in the exact quantity I want, are of a much higher sculpt/detail quality, and come from a small team of people who engage with the community.
Funny enough, the models I do buy are a tad more expensive per 10 guys than what I would get buying from GW. However, the models I do buy are completely customizable, have the exact bits/weapons I want in the exact quantity I want, are of a much higher sculpt/detail quality, and come from a small team of people who engage with the community.
What models are these?
Vic Minis.
Tannenberg specifically. My choices from GW are either the limited pose and weapon selection of the equally priced metal Mordians, or go for the plastic Cadians, that don't look half as good and don't come with all the weapons I'd need for squads like vets.
Funny enough, the models I do buy are a tad more expensive per 10 guys than what I would get buying from GW. However, the models I do buy are completely customizable, have the exact bits/weapons I want in the exact quantity I want, are of a much higher sculpt/detail quality, and come from a small team of people who engage with the community.
What models are these?
Vic Minis.
Tannenberg specifically. My choices from GW are either the limited pose and weapon selection of the equally priced metal Mordians, or go for the plastic Cadians, that don't look half as good and don't come with all the weapons I'd need for squads like vets.
They do look very nice. Much more so than the Cadians/Catachans. Do they have a Catachan analogue? I've always loved the Catachan feel/art etc, but the models (apart from the newer command squad which I actually really like) are genuinely awful.
Funny enough, the models I do buy are a tad more expensive per 10 guys than what I would get buying from GW. However, the models I do buy are completely customizable, have the exact bits/weapons I want in the exact quantity I want, are of a much higher sculpt/detail quality, and come from a small team of people who engage with the community.
What models are these?
Vic Minis.
Tannenberg specifically. My choices from GW are either the limited pose and weapon selection of the equally priced metal Mordians, or go for the plastic Cadians, that don't look half as good and don't come with all the weapons I'd need for squads like vets.
Victoria Lamb's minis are boutique models - and are actually worth the price. (Limited runs, more expensive material, and lots of attention to detail.)
And they are still cheaper than the assault marines from GW.... (10 for $50US for most of her units.)
The Auld Grump - though the urge to name all of the World Devils 'Bruce' is understandable....
They do look very nice. Much more so than the Cadians/Catachans. Do they have a Catachan analogue? I've always loved the Catachan feel/art etc, but the models (apart from the newer command squad which I actually really like) are genuinely awful.
You can mix and match torso, arms, legs, heads, and gear as you see fit, but Vic offers a few pre-done regiments using those bits.
And there'll be a Space Matilda tank coming out soon.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TheAuldGrump wrote: Victoria Lamb's minis are boutique models - and are actually worth the price. (Limited runs, more expensive material, and lots of attention to detail.)
And they are still cheaper than the assault marines from GW.... (10 for $50US for most of her units.)
Oh of course. Vic's stuff is boutique for sure, but so worth it. Very crisp casting and surprisingly easy to assemble despite being fine resin.
Well if I ever do guard (or Imperial Militia for 30k) I know where I'm going! Love the bagpipes in the kilted guard set. And those heads with the re breathers are really cool.
The only things I buy anymore from GW are codices and paint. And even then, I'm looking for PDFs online or alternative paints.
Models I no longer buy from GW. Their prices are just too absurd for me anymore. Besides, I'm finding alternative minis that I like better.
Lately I've been buying a ton of models from Wargames Factory and Dreamforge Games for my Guard army. I'm going to start purchasing the Black Ops minis from Anvil Industry for some Space Marines. And I'm looking for some IG and SM tank alternatives elsewhere.
I've got a fairly sizeable Chaos Daemons/Daemons of Chaos army that I haven't actually constructed because every time I get back into the gaming side, the prices have gone up by another three thousand percent.
I do tend to substitute other models in place of super-expensive or super-rare GW miniatures. I've got Heralds of Nurgle and Khorne from (IIRC) Kings of War; I've got Mantic ghouls to use as the best-looking Nurgle plague zombies that I've ever seen. I've also got a box of twenty soldiers, I believe they're Corporation Marines from some games system or other, that I was going to use as Nurgle Cultists (traitor Guard).
I'm really gonna have to dig all this stuff out, if I put it all together I'll have enough models to conquer the Imperium.
Not buying currently, mostly as I don't currently play 40k (mostly because no one here plays it not for any other reason, so never bothered to update the codexes) and waiting for them to decide what they are going to do with warhammer fantasy.
There Are still People around with such low income they Cant afford gw Minis?
Spend your Time gettin a better job rather than whining in the Internet.
Sorry but so Done with mimimi i have no Money... Gw should give away Minis for free mimimi
winterwind85 wrote: There Are still People around with such low income they Cant afford gw Minis?
Spend your Time gettin a better job rather than whining in the Internet.
Sorry but so Done with mimimi i have no Money... Gw should give away Minis for free mimimi
winterwind85 wrote: There Are still People around with such low income they Cant afford gw Minis?
Spend your Time gettin a better job rather than whining in the Internet.
Sorry but so Done with mimimi i have no Money... Gw should give away Minis for free mimimi
I don't buy GW models anymore, either. I don't even buy the printed codexes anymore, I buy the cheaper (but not by much) electronic ones for the armies I actually play. I do still buy from Forgeworld, as I believe in the work they're doing and the quality they're producing.
Havent bought a single model from GW directly so far. There's ebay and then there are some other ways and methods. Hell, with that price increase I think GW is pretty much playing into the hands of any recaster out there because your saving margin just jumped a whole lot.
I do and don't really have a problem with the prices, they're worth it in most (not all) cases, and there is really no competition when it comes to sci-fi hard plastic with designs and sculpts as great as theirs. Companies that design similar or better models tend to make resin models that are as expensive or more expensive than GW (Mierce for example), and the cheaper ones (Mantic) don't hold a candle to GW when it comes to design, sculpting and technology. GWs business strategy does frequently infuriate me, but I probably won't ever stop buying their models.
Oh and an Assault Squad box is £25, £50 is for two boxes, and would've cost you £40 up until now.
Haven't ebought anything since last Christmas, when I used some gift money to grab a plastic Hive Tyrant. The prices have just gotten way too far out of hand to continue playing.
While I'll happily admit the games I play now average higher per model prices than GW charges (10 Infinity or Malifaux models exceeeds $100au, a box of 12 Gaunts or 10 Skeletons is $48au), the quantity of needed models is what pushes the prices outside of what I'm comfortable with.
I'll gladly pay $150au for a Malifaux crew with a lot of options. I'll not pay $250au for a block of 50 skeletons (5 boxes), which makes up 1/3 of just the core of an Undead army.
The arguments that people want GW models for free or that we're just whiny people who need a better job are, quite simply, stupid. It's not hard to see where the lack of value for money is in GW games.
That said, I still adore the background and I really do like their current models. If they ever put together a 40k of WHFB ruleset that lets me use what I currently have, is actually a quality, balanced ruleset and bring the prices/model counts to sane levels, I'll happily get back into their games.
i still buy GW models...
their sculpts get better every year, in my opinion...
of course, i also collect Infinity, PP, and a variety of others...
as long as the sculpt looks like something i would enjoy painting, i buy it...
GW definitely falls into that category, for me...
i think the new Assault Squad looks awesome, and i can't wait to crack open a box...
GW still has some kits that I really like but that being said I'm glad that I'm not starting out. With their current prices I've been able to hold off starting Ad Mech and I'm now making it a point to paint all the models I have. I've also started to look at 2nd hand models as well. I'll still pick up the occasional kit but there's no longer an 'impulse buy'.
I'll still buy the odd box or blister every month or two if I see something worth painting but its only a few bucks out of my hobby budget compared to everything else I buy.
Hell yeah. Not all of us are flipping burgers in life or are bogged down with children and 150 bills to pay each month. Circumstances vary.
I buy what I feel is worth the money, and get plenty of enjoyment out of the kits. Lots of stuff these days with the dual builds offered, many bits left over for bashing and whatnot.
In my opinion, not much comes close to GW's quality and level of detail. I'm willing to pay for all the customization, detail, and amount of loot you get in certain kits. Love GW's stuff, getting more this weekend, can't wait.
The $115 plastic giant robot kit like the Imperial Knight or the Wraithknight with friction joints aren't "high quality". They're what anyone else would be selling as $25 fixed pose models, but they're being sold to wargamers that don't know any better.
For $115 (or much less) a person can get a model with an articulated internal skeleton, armor plates, and rubber joints so that the model can be reposed without wearing out or breaking the joints. The resin kits from Forge World had the excuse of labor prices, I don't know how anyone excuses the plastic kits.
I haven't brought as much this last 12 months from GW as I did the previous 12 months, the pick up in pace as meant I can't keep up with the painting so I opted out and now buy mostly FW instead, and at that is at a lower rate than I did before as I'm close to completing my 30k UM company.
Price isn't a massive issue for me, the rate of release is a far bigger issue as I simply can't keep up, and there is always something newer and shinier come out so I lose interest in last months release...
Marines have to be one of the easiest armies to buy second hand, strip, and repaint. I've brought Marines by the hundred and done just that, so so much cheaper.
I have not bought any since I last picked up a couple of Vampire models a year back.
My problem is the pricing. I like the models that they produce and I love the single ones for use in Dungeons and Dragons but I protest at having to pay £12 for a single middle quality resin mono-pose casting of one figure. Likewise I refuse to have to pay £18 to £22 for a single 10 man squad that lacks almost all the basic upgrades when for £24 I can get two whole squads and an extra 5 men whom can either be combined with another 5 to form a new squad, built as a command squad, built as a sniper squad, built as several characters or constructed, with the addition of another man, as a special weapons squad.
Likewise I will not pay £35 to £45 for a single tank kit that resembles a childs toy when I can get a historical tank kit in the exact same scale that full fills the exact same role and looks better and goes with my Infantry for £18 to £25. Oh, and it is a superior casting.
I buy from Warlord Games. My old Khantonian 13th regiment is being put on the back burner until prices come down. In the meantime I am building 2 armies, a German one and a British one that I can use in 40K, Bolt Action and any other historical game.
The models are cheaper, they are of the same or better quality, I get all the upgrades and more in the boxes and they look good.
winterwind85 wrote: There Are still People around with such low income they Cant afford gw Minis?
Spend your Time gettin a better job rather than whining in the Internet.
Sorry but so Done with mimimi i have no Money... Gw should give away Minis for free mimimi
Hi Jervis, how goes the work on White Dwarf?
The GW models and books are ridiculously good quality. But I'm saying that there is no reality where they are worth the money being charged. I believe the Eldar Codex is now £45. Ten years ago they were either £8 or £12. I respect it's been a long time, but not much else has increased in price by 400%. My wages certainly haven't. If new cars went up in price like GW products, a BMW 3-series would be £140,000 by now. Don't worry though, we'll all just get jobs as Premiership football players to afford it - if you don't you're obviously lazy and don't deserve to buy expensive stuff.
winterwind85 wrote: There Are still People around with such low income they Cant afford gw Minis?
Spend your Time gettin a better job rather than whining in the Internet.
Sorry but so Done with mimimi i have no Money... Gw should give away Minis for free mimimi
Hi Jervis, how goes the work on White Dwarf?
The GW models and books are ridiculously good quality. But I'm saying that there is no reality where they are worth the money being charged. I believe the Eldar Codex is now £45. Ten years ago they were either £8 or £12. I respect it's been a long time, but not much else has increased in price by 400%. My wages certainly haven't. If new cars went up in price like GW products, a BMW 3-series would be £140,000 by now. Don't worry though, we'll all just get jobs as Premiership football players to afford it - if you don't you're obviously lazy and don't deserve to buy expensive stuff.
The Eldar one is £35. It is a lot, but not quite as high as you think haha. As far as 'ridiculously good quality', well they're not any better than the competition. The fluff isn't great these days and the rules are worse. PP books for example are cheaper, in full hardback still, but with the option to get them in soft back for a bit cheaper too. The fluff is good, the art is awesome, the rules are better than GW. Infinity rules are free, but the book was expensive if you wanted fluff. But you didn't need to spend the money to play the game. I mean, books really are pretty comparable price wise across games (that I play at least). I will spend a lot of money on books if I feel they're worth it, I have three of the FW Horus Heresy books at ~70 quid each; but with the GW Codexes I don't feel it's worth it. Especially when 1-2 years down the line I'll have to rebuy it anyway with little difference. With other companies your £20-30 purchase isn't obsolete within a year or two.
Its simple, you want them? You buy them.
In the reality nicht one cares if they Are to expensive for you.
You want a fast car ? You got the money? Buy a mc laren AMG or mustang. Dont got the Money? Buy a Second Hand camaro.
winterwind85 wrote: Its simple, you want them? You buy them.
In the reality nicht one cares if they Are to expensive for you.
You want a fast car ? You got the money? Buy a mc laren AMG or mustang. Dont got the Money? Buy a Second Hand camaro.
winterwind85 wrote: Its simple, you want them? You buy them.
In the reality nicht one cares if they Are to expensive for you.
You want a fast car ? You got the money? Buy a mc laren AMG or mustang. Dont got the Money? Buy a Second Hand camaro.
So wait, your first post in this thread was serious? 100%?
winterwind85 wrote: Its simple, you want them? You buy them.
In the reality nicht one cares if they Are to expensive for you.
You want a fast car ? You got the money? Buy a mc laren AMG or mustang. Dont got the Money? Buy a Second Hand camaro.
Did the cost=\=value point evade you completely?
Please don't feed the trolls - they aren't very bright, but they regenerate.
Since I don't care what the trolls have to say I Ignore them.
The world will be a better place that way.
The Auld Grump, the other option involves arson investigations and men in trench coats.... Ignoring them is much better.
I'm from England, if I bought a Camaro and actually drove it, it would bring the number of high-performance Chevrolets on Britain's roads to five or six
Our roads are too winding, narrow, congested and generally crap quality for American cars, which are too big, too thirsty and generally not as well made or as good handling. A car enthusiast in Britain would be better off buying a Honda Integra-R, an MG ZS V6, a Peugeot 306 GTi-6 or so on for the size, handling and fun factor. EDIT: I'm not saying all American cars are crap.
Back on topic, I can't comment on other game systems in depth but the quality of Storm of Magic, the new army books and other supplements, and the sheer fun of most GW games, are being betrayed by the ridiculous prices being charged.
Maybe if there was an explanation for why their items are doubling and quadrupling in price, in a time when people are starting to use food banks due to living in poverty (but in fairness can still afford iPhones, tablets and 40+ inch TVs), people would be happier to pay up.
NoPoet wrote: I'm from England, if I bought a Camaro and actually drove it, it would bring the number of high-performance Chevrolets on Britain's roads to five or six
Our roads are too winding, narrow, congested and generally crap quality for American cars, which are too big, too thirsty and generally not as well made or as good handling. A car enthusiast in Britain would be better off buying a Honda Integra-R, an MG ZS V6, a Peugeot 306 GTi-6 or so on for the size, handling and fun factor. EDIT: I'm not saying all American cars are crap.
Back on topic, I can't comment on other game systems in depth but the quality of Storm of Magic, the new army books and other supplements, and the sheer fun of most GW games, are being betrayed by the ridiculous prices being charged.
Maybe if there was an explanation for why their items are doubling and quadrupling in price, in a time when people are starting to use food banks due to living in poverty (but in fairness can still afford iPhones, tablets and 40+ inch TVs), people would be happier to pay up.
The problem is that a lot of folks disagree about the quality of the games themselves - the rules are created to spur sales more than as an entertaining game. Balance, in particular, is poor.
It is very painful for me - I started playing with 2nd edition Warhammer Fantasy, with 3rd being my favorite.
Now... I use my old Warhammer Fantasy miniatures (and many, many others) to play Kings of War - better rules, and they are free.
Because Mantic bothered playtesting out of house. Playing out of house lets the munchkins show you the tipping points in your balance of forces.
GW only tests in house, using house armies, rather than let slip the min-maxers of war.
If you like the Warhammer fluff (until 9th, when Mr. Punch throws the baby out the window) then I recommend using your Warhammer armies with Kings of War, there is even an officially unofficial list coming out for each of the Warhammer armies. (Official - they can be used in tournaments. Unofficial - they have no bearing on the Kings of War fluff.)
That way you can keep using any armies that you invested money in, rather than watch Mr. Punch wave his stick around and crow 'That's the way to do it!'
The Auld Grump - the whole idea behind 9th edition offends me.
Ha! It is like a false challenge: "Can't afford GW models? You loser!"
False.
I can get much better stuff for the same price.
Even better, it I can get good models AND play a game with rules worth playing.
As pointed out with the Vic. models you can even get something better from a different company if you want to play 40k.
Now myself, I have grabbed the latest Imperial Knight so the extra bits work well with the first IK I got but had not put together yet.
I got some Skitarii because I had wanted these guys since reading about them in BL novels, not so keen on the Mechanicus latest.
Unless it is a completely new model unlike most marines there is little need to get anything.
I have lately found other game systems to be more to my liking so 40k has taken a back burner compared to how I used to be.
Since GW is kinda confused it is easy to explain all this mess:
1) They offer models in the flavor of grim-dark, few groups do but there are some alternatives out there. They claim they are mainly a model company.
2) GW's models are by far not the best and usually 30% more expensive of similarly sized models that usually have etched metal components.
3) The added incentive are the models are used for a game where the rules are progressively becoming more convoluted with each iteration.
- They may not admit it but sales tend to boost with the next codex release so rules DO matter.
GW will not die, they will just cease to be relevant to one customer at a time...
I can afford to buy GW models. They make some lovely models, and i've been known to pick them up just to paint. My WHFB Treeman is an example. I don't play WHFB, but it's a gorgeous model, and will see use in my Pathfinder games.
My problem is the game. 40K has lost it's appeal for me. I no longer feel like painting my horde of GW models, and am selling most of my armies off. I will keep a few to paint when the mood strikes me, but i don't need hundreds of them.
Ironically my situation is the opposite with one of the main competitors, Warmahordes.
I like the game, but hate painting the models. I'm selling off two armies just so i don't have to paint them, and because i'm overcommitted. I still have two other armies i like to play that i'm keeping.
That's not to say that WM/H doesn't have some nice models, but for that game it's the game that takes precedence, whereas for my 40K armies the look and feel is more important.
Ascalam wrote: I can afford to buy GW models. They make some lovely models, and i've been known to pick them up just to paint. My WHFB Treeman is an example. I don't play WHFB, but it's a gorgeous model, and will see use in my Pathfinder games.
And that is one of the important things that I think GW has lost track of - they don't want to see folks using their minis in other games.
Which is a danged shame - it is the hope of getting to play in Mummy's Mask that is spurring me to paint the Tomb Kings battalion box that I have had for umpty-ump years. (Play, not run. I only ever get to run, these days.)
Paying attention to what other corners of the tabletop gaming market is doing would help boost sales.
Instead, they are trying to get a smaller and smaller niche, for fear that people will skip the rules, and just buy the figures.
When GW had reasonably priced miniatures I used to buy them for any number of games. That was one of the prime reasons that I preferred Fantasy Battle to 40K - I could get more mileage out of the minis. (And part of the reason that my homebrew Pathfinder/3.X game is set in a 1630s equivalent.)
Now, the Perry twins and Mantic are filling that area of my gaming habit. They are the ones making minis that will see use in multiple games.
I buy them, but certainly not exclusively.
And I will admit I've put more into buying second hand, discontinued GW stuff this year than I've put into their hands (Mordians, Tanith, metal IG)...
However, it's Friday, I'm walking through town, I've just finished my sausage roll, and there's the siren call of a GW between me and the bus stop home?
At the very least I drop in for a chat, and one of the "cheaper" character models.
Compare to going home, remembering, and ordering online for something in 3-4 days time, and you have your answer.
winterwind85 wrote: There Are still People around with such low income they Cant afford gw Minis?
Spend your Time gettin a better job rather than whining in the Internet.
Sorry but so Done with mimimi i have no Money... Gw should give away Minis for free mimimi
Cause a "better job" is something you can just easily get.
Nothing is free, all I ever wanted was a reasonable cost.
Lots of miniature, most miniature companies, have reasonable costs, GW used to have reasonable costs (for the most part).
Or at very least, if they're gonna charge that kind of money, make the rules solid or something.
Always one of you when these threads come up.
The money was never what it was about for me, this isn't even my most expensive hobby (ball jointed dolls get that award) it was the rules.
And how much they ask for gakky rules.
I want to play, I really do, but I hate all their games, so I can't... And that sucks.
I still buy some Gw models, but only if they really catch my attention, and then I find ways of getting them for less, and do more shopping around than usual due to the prices.
Everything is either a unique model I like to adds to an army I have already got. My days of buying new armies or games from Gw are over, they priced themselves out of the running long ago. Furthermore will only possibly buy a new faction if I see a second hand buy or trade, or a cherap way in via multyiple starter sets, which I will also only buy on the cheap. This has actually been the case for over a decade.
My last retail purchased factions from GW was about fifteen years ago, and they were considered pricy then.
I consider Privateer Press to be in the same category, they attract less hate but have the same rip off pricing.
I stopped buying from GW on principle many years ago.
At first it stung, but now I've gotten to the point that I barely even care what GW does, even from the perspective of one interested in developments in the table top gaming market. GW is becoming irrelevant by degrees.
This is one of the first GW-related threads I have clicked on in a while (other than the one one abut GW getting sued for copyright infringement, but that was for the LOLs).
I saw some Hobbit models the other week at 75% off and I was tempted to buy them on a lark since the discount was so steep. But I passed on them even as parts in the bits bin. The company just isn't doing much of anything that is exciting these days.
What is the level of detailing on the kits? What material are the kits made out of? What production scale does the company producing them have? Are these models even in the same scale? Is this representative of the entire range or just a couple of cherry-picked products?
Those are some of the questions that should be asked, but without well backed-up answers, there is no point in the post he made.
No i have stopped buying now. Too expensive to play and rules and op codex creep. Gone into ancients where things are cheaper 60 models for £30 and good balanced rules (Clash of Empires)
I would still buy GW stuff if it weren't for the confusion surrounding 9th ed WHFB. I really like the new mechanicum models, and would get an army if it weren't for the fact that I am totally uninterested in 40K as a game. I would also get the new Tech Priest just to paint in an instant if it cost around 100-150 SEK ($11-$17). But considering it costs 239 SEK ($28) at discount, I doesn't seem likely I'll buy it anytime soon...
I must say that so far this year I have purchased zero GW models. There have been a few that I wouldn't mind owning (the Ad mech stuff) but the price is just silly.
I have been buying a lot of other systems items and very happy with the choice
I have not bought any GW models for about 2 years. I did pick up the new ork codex last year, read through it and ended up just disappointed. Sold the codex and got close to getting my money back, was just happy to get rid of that codex. After reading the new ork codex it pretty much put the final nail in the coffin for playing 40k, just tired of playing codex roulette.
If GW put out good rules and tried to balance the game I would not have any problem buying their products. But as it stands right now I don't feel that Iam getting my dollars worth out of GW products. Sure GW was cool models but the game is more important to me. That's why I have no problem with spending money on PP products, I feel like I get more bang for my buck.
I haven't in a while, but only because I've had other projects. I'll be picking up some new marine stuff, mainly the new chaplain as the model is stunning
I stopped buying GW product about 4 years ago.(I stopped buying from GW plc directly about a 15 years ago!)
Like many I have the money to spend on my TTMG hobby.
But there is so little value for gamers in GW product now, I prefer to buy from other companies.
Why pay over the top for rules books and codex books , when there are much better rules free to down load on the internet?
And why pay the same price for a single plastic minature , as a limited edition finely crafted piece of art in high quality resin?
IF the rules were written focused on the game play, and the codex books had better internal and external balance.
And all publications were professionally proof read and edited.They might add enough value to the GW product range to make them worth considering.
I've been putting together a whole load of GW models recently, IG Scions and Bullgryns specifically, and have found them excellent sculpts that were really cleverly designed and easy to put together and to customise. In fact, from 3 boxes of 5 Scions I've got individual heads for each mini (with such fine facial hair!) and still had a spare head left over!
As for value for money, yeah. It is expensive. But then so is, say, Magic the Gathering and at least once you buy a model that's it - It's in your army and it's pretty likely that it's never going to become obsolete in a years time. Touch wood.
Also, is it fair to say that everyone saying they no longer buy GW stuff any more is probably what drove the prices up in the first place?
After many years of not buying anything from GW, I recently picked up the Eldar Codex and Wraithknight. I'll probably pick up a box of Jetbikes and a Vyper to round out the Eldar army.
I don't buy much GW proper stuff, but I spend quite a lot of money at FW strangely haha. Personally I feel the value is better even if I'm paying more.
ImAGeek wrote: I don't buy much GW proper stuff, but I spend quite a lot of money at FW strangely haha. Personally I feel the value is better even if I'm paying more.
I know, I buy a few FW minis only for those extra special projects, some really good designs there.
winterwind85 wrote: There Are still People around with such low income they Cant afford gw Minis? Spend your Time gettin a better job rather than whining in the Internet. Sorry but so Done with mimimi i have no Money... Gw should give away Minis for free mimimi
PrehistoricUFO wrote: Hell yeah. Not all of us are flipping burgers in life or are bogged down with children and 150 bills to pay each month. Circumstances vary.
I buy what I feel is worth the money, and get plenty of enjoyment out of the kits. Lots of stuff these days with the dual builds offered, many bits left over for bashing and whatnot.
Yeah, I wish they'd just cut to the chase and make a squad of Space Marines cost £1000, so as to be good and sure that poor people can't afford to play. Why prolong the torture for these poor losers. £1000 for five Space Marines would still be great value when you think of all the hours of enjoyment you can get from painting them. Even though drawing and painting is something you can probably do for free without ever giving a penny to GW... but I personally would be willing to pay £1000 just for the privilege of painting on worthless polystyrene that has been shaped by Games Workshop. It would still be cheaper than my other hobbies: yachting, collecting super cars, and throwing wild cocaine + hooker parties. So it must be good value, and that totally makes sense. I don't know what everyone is complaining about. So what if a box of marines costs £50? It's not like money has any actual value, right? I only use fifties for wiping my ass, and lining bin bags. GW are practically giving stuff away at that price.
Here's an interesting thought then. For the people who are happy with prices/aren't bothered by them, is there a price point (using a Tac squad as a basis) where you'd stop buying them? Roughly anyways, assuming the kit remains mostly unchanged/slightly updated, like the new assault marine pack. Where's the line?
Infinity and you can play and win the game with this, only a few models more.maybe.
One squad you need more to even field a legal army.
Dreamforge eisenkern stormtrooper 20 miniatures 50€, posable and everything (and cheaper)
20 cadians 46 € cheaper than marines.
Blacksails wrote: Here's an interesting thought then. For the people who are happy with prices/aren't bothered by them, is there a price point (using a Tac squad as a basis) where you'd stop buying them? Roughly anyways, assuming the kit remains mostly unchanged/slightly updated, like the new assault marine pack. Where's the line?
Obviously, there is no line: a million dollars, ten million dollars, the lives of a small African nation... You can't put a price on quality. Anyone who doesn't agree that $10,000,000 is good value for a tac squad is obviously just poor and flipping burgers, and should spend more time looking for a better job instead of complaining on the internet.
I blew around $700 over the last month on FB before it is gone for good, that includes 2 army books ( and also bits ordering some killer sales on 100 zombies since I had many extra arms and heads laying around ) and filling out units for 3 different armies that were around 1500-1800 each, things like demigryphs, coven thrones and so on all add up when you are talking 60-80 a kit. This might sound like a lot but I had already invested about 1k into my fb armies over the last 6 years, this is because I LOVE 8th FB and have decided to play it for years to come, so has my gaming group and I now have enough "extra" options for all 3 armies years down the road if I wish to swap out units for others. Normally I would not do something like this as I would in fact have the time to continue buying at a much slower pace, with what GW is doing I have no reason to get into 9th and most of what I love about FB is now dead and will soon be removed.
Long term 9th I'm sure will end up costing far more than what FB has in the some 10 years I got heavily into collecting for my armies, much of those back then I used to bulk order at 30% off before GW finally got around the rules for these sales, so it's really only been this final order for FB that has ended up costing a fair bit but really only the price of about a full army of 2500. I may end up buying some of the new modular FB buildings if they are done in such a way that they can be easily used with FB setting ( ie not too much steampunk ) but 9th will be totally passed I have no desire to delve into that.
I do not regret any of this at all, for years and to this day NOTHING has ever impressed me or given me that satisfaction in minis like a fully painted and displayed FB army, and with 8th I believe they finally got it right and it will last as a solid playable edition for many years, in fact many of the oldhammer guys are starting to embrace it and I believe there will be many more who wish to stick with oldhammer vs bubblehammer. Yes 8th was expensive and in no way friendly to new players, but it finally felt that we had "real armies" to play with or construct and to me this is what FB was about, big armies with epic heroes and the end times options of making chaos all unified again was the icing on the cake, sure there is some cheese there but only if people choose to abuse those list, I on the other hand simply always wanted a 100% fully mono slaanesh fb army in 8th and hated when GW made chaos mortals and daemons 2 armies, since they always were together and that is finally happening now with the daemonkin books and how it should always be before that monstrosity gavdex came out that killed 3rd dex which was great cause I'm still wiping my arse with the emo space pirate fiasco.
On 40k end, I skipped 5th and 6th and glad I did too, just picked up DV and the ork codex, getting DA codex on release and will be finishing off my ork army which is already at around 1500 points which I bought slowly over the last 5 years and glad I did with the outstanding newer plastics they got. Whats left is a Stompa, a few more units of boyz and maybe some of those plastic new big guns and mega nobs so about $200 there, for DA I've gotten so many of them dirt cheap on ebay $10 for tac squads and a few bucks more for termies and ravenwing, picked up a metal azrael the other week nib cheap too, so a few more units there maybe a box of knights and a flyer, so about $200 there too. Other than that I will be getting nurgle daemonkin when it comes out or chaos daemons since I already have 2x boxes of nurglings and 50 plaguebearers and a unit of deathguard with 40 cultists from DV and the marines and hellbrute s that army will mostly be done other than tanks.
I would say not much left to buy..I am slowly replacing my citadel paints though ( and I have some from the 90s still ) with the new range and I gotta say the new range is worth it, having almost 3 shades for every color helps loads when painting an entire army, and most of my bolter shell tops have dried out.
Smacks wrote: Obviously, there is no line: a million dollars, ten million dollars, the lives of a small African nation... You can't put a price on quality. Anyone who doesn't agree that $10,000,000 is good value for a tac squad is obviously just poor and flipping burgers, and should spend more time looking for a better job instead of complaining on the internet.
Amiright?
I was definitely piggy-backing on your earlier comment, and while I chuckled, I wouldn't mind a serious answer from the people who think the prices are still fair, or don't bother them.
Would $100 be too much for a 5-man marine squad? $150? $200? At what point will people who don't mind now finally throw their hands up and admit defeat. I'm genuinely curious.
Smacks wrote: Obviously, there is no line: a million dollars, ten million dollars, the lives of a small African nation... You can't put a price on quality. Anyone who doesn't agree that $10,000,000 is good value for a tac squad is obviously just poor and flipping burgers, and should spend more time looking for a better job instead of complaining on the internet.
Amiright?
I was definitely piggy-backing on your earlier comment, and while I chuckled, I wouldn't mind a serious answer from the people who think the prices are still fair, or don't bother them.
Would $100 be too much for a 5-man marine squad? $150? $200? At what point will people who don't mind now finally throw their hands up and admit defeat. I'm genuinely curious.
There is def a line, I would not pay 100 for 10 marines even, at the very most I would pay 70 for a 10 man box and that would have to be sooooooo much better than the 10 man tac which is still new, there would have to be some serious dynamics with that kit also and I have doubts that there will really be a huge jump in detail in 10 years, I believe we are slowly hitting that point where there will soon be diminishing returns in the detail of the minis, it's quite clear they are getting better with how dynamic and good looking the plastic kits are, but they are also at a point now I can honestly say they are hands down as good ( if not better in some areas ) than metal. So for those of us who are already into GW games it would be best to buy within the next year or two before those kinds of price rises come in.
GW is still affordable for anyone who has play money, they are not cheap but they are affordable enough that you can still buy armies over a year or two in the 2k or under range. With the starter boxes ( only if someone wants to play those armies ) GW can in fact be VERY cheap if you go ebay bits route, I mean where else can you get a full 6 man tac company filled out for 60 bucks ? yes they are mono but I would rather have all my icons sculpted on and a fluffy army anyway so I aint complaining. A box of new tacs are 50 here...
There is def a line, I would not pay 100 for 10 marines even, at the very most I would pay 70 for a 10 man box and that would have to be sooooooo much better than the 10 man tac which is still new, there would have to be some serious dynamics with that kit also and I have doubts that there will really be a huge jump in detail in 10 years, I believe we are slowly hitting that point where there will soon be diminishing returns in the detail of the minis, it's quite clear they are getting better with how dynamic and good looking the plastic kits are, but they are also at a point now I can honestly say they are hands down as good ( if not better in some areas ) than metal. So for those of us who are already into GW games it would be best to buy within the next year or two before those kinds of price rises come in.
I currently pay ~$5 a model from a boutique resin store, so I suppose that'd be my limit. I can't stomach much more than that. That said, I get the exact weapon loadout I need, whereas GW kits still don't have the bits to field many of the legal configurations for gaming (multiple of the same special weapon is a huge turnoff), and I can't stand the lumpy potato faces of their plastic guardsmen.
If they produced hard plastic Mordians with all the trimmings for a legal Vet squad, and it was $50, I might have to reconsider where my money goes, but that's about as likely as plastic sisters, so...
GW is still affordable for anyone who has play money, they are not cheap but they are affordable enough that you can still buy armies over a year or two in the 2k or under range. With the starter boxes ( only if someone wants to play those armies ) GW can in fact be VERY cheap if you go ebay bits route, I mean where else can you get a full 6 man tac company filled out for 60 bucks ? yes they are mono but I would rather have all my icons sculpted on and a fluffy army anyway so I aint complaining. A box of new tacs are 50 here...
GW is only affordable in the sense that other hobbies are more expensive. My luxury yacht and private helo are way more expensive, but it doesn't make the comparative cost of GW vs. other model companies any less important for many, many people.
Oh, and ebay works for other companies and hobbies too, so its never really a fair comparison to state that GW is cheap when bought second hand, because well, everything is cheaper when bought second hand.
One of my other hobbies is guns and I still consider GW not a good value.
My wife literally gasped when I showed her the 40k prices at our FLGS. She said she's sticking to Malifaux.
Why do you still not see the concept of value for money?
That Infinity starter pack might be more expensive per model, but it's also 1/3 of a full list. Another box or few blisters and you've got a fully functioning list.
That Space Marine tactical squad is probably 1/10 of a full army. Those Cadians are even less of a Guard army. Can't speak much for Dreamforge, as I don't know much about their product.
An example in Australian dollars. A starter costs me on average $45au, and on average 6 miniatures. An Infinity starter costs on average $50au, for 6 miniatures. A Space Marine tactical squad costs $65au, for 10 miniatures.
For that one box, the Tactical squad is more value for money. More miniatures, customiseability. For that one box.
Now, with the Space Marines,. to play an average 1500pt army, I'll be spending about 10 times that amount, conservatively. Depending on my choices, I could be spending more (if I want things like vehicles, it's going to balloon quite quickly).
With the Infinity starter, to play an average 300pt game, I'll need to buy maybe another box, maybe a couple of blisters. That will bring it to roughly $100au.
With the Malifaux starter, I'll need to buy a few solo boxes, maybe a multimodel expansion box. That will probably bring it to $120au.
Another good example is, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, Warhammer Fantasy. I need to pay 250 dollars for a single core unit that makes up only one third of my required core, which makes up only one quarter of the whole army.
Value for money doesn't stop at what you get in one box. It's how much it costs to play an average game.
Blacksails wrote: I was definitely piggy-backing on your earlier comment, and while I chuckled, I wouldn't mind a serious answer from the people who think the prices are still fair, or don't bother them.
Heh, I like to think my answer was quite serious, at least in its intent. If it sounded absurd, that's probably because the arguments I quoted were themselves absurd. But given how heavily the water had already been poisoned for anyone who tried to disagree, I opted to agree wholeheartedly and follow the position to its logical conclusion, where I think it probably just undermines itself by being stupid. I doubt any of the people arguing "Hey, it is good value, you're just not rich enough" will be willing to admit that there is a point where they themselves "aren't rich enough", it would be self defeating as it proves a disconnect between value and wealth. Aside from the fact that wealthy people can afford to get terrible value for money, and still have enough money not to care, there isn't much to remark on. Someone being wealthy doesn't somehow magically make GW better value. GW are almost guaranteed to be poor value by virtue of being a monopoly, but even monopolies have their limits. There is actually a formula for figuring out what the optimum price/profit point for a tac squad would be based on price elasticity. http://www.economicshelp.org/university/inverse-elasticity-pricing/
If we could find some decent information on the volume of sales over time then we might be able to work out what it is.
MWHistorian wrote: One of my other hobbies is guns and I still consider GW not a good value.
My wife literally gasped when I showed her the prices at our FLGS. She said she's sticking to Malifaux.
Guns are a great value - they basically don't depreciate. OTOH, if you had given golf as your other hobby, that's about the only thing that makes GW look really price reasonable.
I'm simply trying to stop buying, and generally succeeding.
Damn right I am, got a small skitarii and mechanicus force, definitely gonna get two boxes of the new devastators. If they come out with one of those sprues for deathwatch gonna buy at least 8 of them to kit out my army. Switching everything over to 32mm because it looks way better for marines than the 25mm. Also makes it easier to get scenic with my bases.
My dad and I share the codexs so we get all of them.
I like their paints so I mainly use them however I will quickly supplement them with other lines to fill the holes. Most of my other hobby supplies come from elsewhere however (need a lot of practice with my airbrush....)
So are the costs per model of GW high compared to other lines yes. Does it change the fact that I get more value per dollar from GW models than I would the other lines? Not a smidgen.
I've been meaning to pick up some LOTR stuff for SBH and Shield Breaker and the like, but I just haven't gotten around to it. A bunch of stuff have been discontinued, made into Finecast and/or gone direct only, so I just don't.
For a start the Cadians are dreadful models though not quite as bad as the catachans which GW still sell. The space marines aren't all that either. They're multipose and stuff but alongside other plastic model companies the detailing is rudimentary and not nearly as sharp and crisp in appearance.
Working out value for money is an interesting one if you buy models to game with rather than just paint. Some of my GW models I've owned since 2nd edition, granted they were much cheaper then but I've played many, many games with them so the pence per game cost is tiny. Some of my friends have followed the local fads of Infinity or Deadzone or Dust or PP, brought into the game, then when the fad is over they are left with a bunch of models they are no longer using. Yet they always come back to their 40k or fantasy armies, that larger, more consistent player base that GW has historically enjoyed has paid off. £50 on models you only use for 12 months is expensive, £50 on models you use for 12 years is not.
Now GW have been hissing the player base for a while with reduced support, interaction, frequent changes I know some player bases at some FLGS have moved completely away from GW product, it is this reduction in long term player base that would slowly grind away the lasting value of the models.
A squad of 10 tacticals with weapons from FW is £61 with no further discounts possible, compared to £18.75 for the GW plastics from Dark Sphere with more options. I'd say with the availability of opponents I've had who have fielded multiple FW tactical squads I'd say £61 is viable for a good proportion of the player base of 30k.
By the definition given here Bolt Action miniatures are still a better value for money. My 25 man box set is only £24, and contains a good portion of my army. And I can use it in multiple games too.
Well so far I have never bought anything off gw except some paint in my local game store. Everything I got whole army I build is second hand or comes from job lots . Sure it's damn hard build exactly what you want, but sooner or later I mange to get what I wished for anyway.
I am, Not so much as usual as I have been quite ill.
I have friends that try to get me into other games, but apart from a quick game of x-wing and a few other systems here and there, nothing really excites me as much as 40k.
None of the other games really spur me into modelling or painting action like a space marine does !
Haven't bought a GW model in 2 years and not about to start now. Feels great! All those other games I missed out on, I'm catching up on....thanks to the money I've saved.
I have always found looking at the RRP of GW products.
Just to halve the price on the sticker, to find what the product would be priced at if GW plc had competent management.
And then say I am not paying 'GWs incompetent management tax' , and walk away.
winterwind85 wrote: There Are still People around with such low income they Cant afford gw Minis?
Spend your Time gettin a better job rather than whining in the Internet.
Sorry but so Done with mimimi i have no Money... Gw should give away Minis for free mimimi
PrehistoricUFO wrote: Hell yeah. Not all of us are flipping burgers in life or are bogged down with children and 150 bills to pay each month. Circumstances vary.
I buy what I feel is worth the money, and get plenty of enjoyment out of the kits. Lots of stuff these days with the dual builds offered, many bits left over for bashing and whatnot.
Yeah, I wish they'd just cut to the chase and make a squad of Space Marines cost £1000, so as to be good and sure that poor people can't afford to play. Why prolong the torture for these poor losers. £1000 for five Space Marines would still be great value when you think of all the hours of enjoyment you can get from painting them. Even though drawing and painting is something you can probably do for free without ever giving a penny to GW... but I personally would be willing to pay £1000 just for the privilege of painting on worthless polystyrene that has been shaped by Games Workshop. It would still be cheaper than my other hobbies: yachting, collecting super cars, and throwing wild cocaine + hooker parties. So it must be good value, and that totally makes sense. I don't know what everyone is complaining about. So what if a box of marines costs £50? It's not like money has any actual value, right? I only use fifties for wiping my ass, and lining bin bags. GW are practically giving stuff away at that price.
Pffftttt... pathetic losers with their "families" and "adult priorities" and "perspective" and "lives". I bet they drive Scions instead of Ferrari's, and spend more money on books then they do on male enhancement pills.
What a bunch of suckers!
What's actually the problem with 9th ed Warhammer? Are the new rules crap, or are people upset about having to buy new rules, which is understandable by the way. I can still load Fallout 3 on my 360 after all these years without having to send Bethesda another forty quid. Why do I have to pay the GW to re-buy all the same stuff every few years?
As for actually starting a new army, I'll be honest, I might buy a Honda NSX type-R instead, it's slightly more expensive than a GW army deal but let's face it, it generates more envy than owning five Imperial Knights.
NoPoet wrote: What's actually the problem with 9th ed Warhammer? Are the new rules crap, or are people upset about having to buy new rules, which is understandable by the way.
I can still load Fallout 3 on my 360 after all these years without having to send Bethesda another forty quid. Why do I have to pay the GW to re-buy all the same stuff every few years?
As for actually starting a new army, I'll be honest, I might buy a Honda NSX type-R instead, it's slightly more expensive than a GW army deal but let's face it, it generates more envy than owning five Imperial Knights.
I don't believe the new rules are out, so there's not assessment on whether they're crap or not. People are upset about buying new rules, but that's a given. There will be whining, though.
You call out Fallout 3 - how many versions of Fallout are there, and assuming you buy all of the content, how much money would one have spent to stay current? Or what about Monster Hunter? Or (shudder) Skylanders (including the DLC toys)? Fantasy isn't that expensive compared to a digital franchise. And it's not like you couldn't still play WFB 6E.
Where are you buying a NSX for <$1k? And how much are you going to have to spend to maintain it?
NoPoet wrote: What's actually the problem with 9th ed Warhammer? Are the new rules crap, or are people upset about having to buy new rules, which is understandable by the way. I can still load Fallout 3 on my 360 after all these years without having to send Bethesda another forty quid. Why do I have to pay the GW to re-buy all the same stuff every few years?
As for actually starting a new army, I'll be honest, I might buy a Honda NSX type-R instead, it's slightly more expensive than a GW army deal but let's face it, it generates more envy than owning five Imperial Knights.
Rumors based on peoples gak getting cut and just a bunch of new stuff people would "need" to get to play this new addition.
NoPoet wrote: What's actually the problem with 9th ed Warhammer? Are the new rules crap, or are people upset about having to buy new rules, which is understandable by the way. I can still load Fallout 3 on my 360 after all these years without having to send Bethesda another forty quid. Why do I have to pay the GW to re-buy all the same stuff every few years?
As for actually starting a new army, I'll be honest, I might buy a Honda NSX type-R instead, it's slightly more expensive than a GW army deal but let's face it, it generates more envy than owning five Imperial Knights.
Rumors based on peoples gak getting cut and just a bunch of new stuff people would "need" to get to play this new addition.
also general GW money grab stuff and things.
Don't forget the entire world literally blowing up. That tends to peeve people off too.
NoPoet wrote: What's actually the problem with 9th ed Warhammer? Are the new rules crap, or are people upset about having to buy new rules, which is understandable by the way. I can still load Fallout 3 on my 360 after all these years without having to send Bethesda another forty quid. Why do I have to pay the GW to re-buy all the same stuff every few years?
As for actually starting a new army, I'll be honest, I might buy a Honda NSX type-R instead, it's slightly more expensive than a GW army deal but let's face it, it generates more envy than owning five Imperial Knights.
Rumors based on peoples gak getting cut and just a bunch of new stuff people would "need" to get to play this new addition.
also general GW money grab stuff and things.
Don't forget the entire world literally blowing up. That tends to peeve people off too.
I feel like that point can't be emphasized enough. The final End Times book ended with the planet exploding and almost every faction and character you ever cared about dying. The Lizardmen are the only confirmed survivors thus far.
It's been... maybe 3 years since I last bought a GW product. Can't give a specific number because my interest in playing their games faded a while ago. And after all of the new fluff they've put out lately, my interest in their background has pretty much died, too. There are just so many other companies creating better models and better fiction that actually care about their fans. I won't waste my time and money on a company that doesn't care about their customers or their own products.
I sometimes buy paint from GW, or maybe a brush. Won't go out of my way to buy paint from GW but there is a GW in town so if I am there anyway and need some paint I will buy some from them. It helps that local gw store manger dosen't try to upsell to me and try to get me to buy the local x or y. If he did I wouldn't buy anything from there. Still prefer to purchase from my FLGS though and will wait to buy from them most of the time.
Other than that I think I bought Dark Vegence shortly after release and picked up some snap fit Imperial guard shortly after that. Since then I haven't purchases any GW products and have sold off most of my old stuff.
Two major things made me pretty much ditch most of my GW stuff. Not only are the prices higher than I would like to play but the number of models needed to play is extremely high. When I realized I had spent x amount and needed to invest y amount more before I could play at the points values most players do.
Add that to the requirement of having to buy the rules and codex's to play and the rules being very complex with so many special rules that you have to reference the rule book constantly I decided it wasn't for me.
Thus for WHFB I went down the Kings of War route.
Yes it requires a lot of models but I feel less tied in to using a single miniatures range. I can unit base and the game encourages the use of historical miniatures or other model ranges. Meaning I can make the armies I want and can do so for considerably cheaper than a WHFB army. Couple that with the rules being far simpler than the WHFB rules yet still very tactical.
Also got into a host of smaller historical games as well as Infinity. Infinity is very expensive on a per model basis thats true but the over all cost to play is considerably lower. Also got into X-Wing. Once again expensive per model but lower total cost to play. I have spent about £100 on the game and have everything I need for me and my girlfriend to play and can expand a tenner at at time.
The most recent thing I bought was an Empire Handgunners box a couple of months ago for ~$25. I've spent countless hours fiddling with all of its parts, lovingly converting and painting every model. The way I look at it, I'm not forking over my dough to add a piece of plastic (or ten) to my collection, but for the hours of enjoyment that I get out of it.
I haven't bought anything GW in almost 3 years because the game system is a mess. I buy 40k books, and I love the Dawn of War and Space Marine video games. The tabletop game just takes too long to play due to all the random rolls and all the dead time for the inactive player, not to mention the obvious power creep. I have an army that I customized and painted, and I enjoyed making it, but I don't see any point in expanding it.
I played 40k exclusively from 1997 to early 6th edition but the creeping prices made me more and more hesitant to invest in new armies. It reached the point where one squad was the same price as whole starter sets for other systems (including rule books) so I took the chance on some of them and haven't looked back. Now I see 82 dollars for a 10 man squad and am completely disgusted.
My last purchase was an Imperial Knight back in January. Haven't bought a single bit since. My enthusiasm for GW in general is severely on the wane, I've been thinking about switching to Infinity.
Last thing I bought from GW was the 6th Ed BRB. I got it the day it was launched (admittedly as giddy as a proverbial school girl). Since then I have sold all of my GW stuff and haven't looked back. I personally did not see the point of continuing after 5th Ed, between the rules and the pricing I had enough.
I do what to emphasis something though. This is my personal choice. I have seen a lot of people in these threads get jumped on for saying that they enjoy the models and don't care what the price is. I say to them "it's all good" life is to short to not do what you love.
darefsky (Flight Medic Paints) wrote: Last thing I bought from GW was the 6th Ed BRB. I got it the day it was launched (admittedly as giddy as a proverbial school girl). Since then I have sold all of my GW stuff and haven't looked back. I personally did not see the point of continuing after 5th Ed, between the rules and the pricing I had enough.
I do what to emphasis something though. This is my personal choice. I have seen a lot of people in these threads get jumped on for saying that they enjoy the models and don't care what the price is. I say to them "it's all good" life is to short to not do what you love.
Yeah to some people £50 a box might be a bargain. To others the value just isn't there.
youidiotkid wrote: The most recent thing I bought was an Empire Handgunners box a couple of months ago for ~$25. I've spent countless hours fiddling with all of its parts, lovingly converting and painting every model. The way I look at it, I'm not forking over my dough to add a piece of plastic (or ten) to my collection, but for the hours of enjoyment that I get out of it.
Amen. I love assembling and painting the models, so I have no problem dropping $50.00 on a box of GW models that I will spend a couple of weeks enjoying. No worse than a cheap bar tab or an afternoon with a six pack on the golf course.
Third_Age_of_Baggz wrote: Haven't bought a GW model in 2 years and not about to start now. Feels great! All those other games I missed out on, I'm catching up on....thanks to the money I've saved.
youidiotkid wrote: The most recent thing I bought was an Empire Handgunners box a couple of months ago for ~$25. I've spent countless hours fiddling with all of its parts, lovingly converting and painting every model. The way I look at it, I'm not forking over my dough to add a piece of plastic (or ten) to my collection, but for the hours of enjoyment that I get out of it.
Amen. I love assembling and painting the models, so I have no problem dropping $50.00 on a box of GW models that I will spend a couple of weeks enjoying. No worse than a cheap bar tab or an afternoon with a six pack on the golf course.
And taken from that perspective, I can totally appreciate buying individual squads or characters. I've considered buying a lone box here or there just for the art of it, but I keep finding better value in gunpla or other miniatures companies without an associated game.
I still buy stuff but I am super picky and have started to utilize the second hand market and discounters more. I mostly have added a small thing or two to my current armies. I've only started a new army for the first time since 4ed because I finally got my clown book that I have wanted since 3rd.
Even then I bought almost my entire Harlequin army second hand super cheap with a few good buys and a couple of conversions thumbsup:
youidiotkid wrote: The most recent thing I bought was an Empire Handgunners box a couple of months ago for ~$25. I've spent countless hours fiddling with all of its parts, lovingly converting and painting every model. The way I look at it, I'm not forking over my dough to add a piece of plastic (or ten) to my collection, but for the hours of enjoyment that I get out of it.
Amen. I love assembling and painting the models, so I have no problem dropping $50.00 on a box of GW models that I will spend a couple of weeks enjoying. No worse than a cheap bar tab or an afternoon with a six pack on the golf course.
And taken from that perspective, I can totally appreciate buying individual squads or characters. I've considered buying a lone box here or there just for the art of it, but I keep finding better value in gunpla or other miniatures companies without an associated game.
Agreed, Gundam models, for the money are so far above what GW could ever hope to produce.
And there's lots of "fluff" for them too.
Yup and a whole lot it is. Probably 3 visits this year to the gw store and probably 1000 euro on:
Buildings and scenery nurgle units, paint, bloodthirster new mech units etc.
It is even more money because i bought the valejo model air box, new primers, water effects, glue, wood styrofoam, cork, plaster etc
It is a decision you make is this your hobby or not?
GW produces a quality product. I don't think that its too expensive. Not only are you getting ten assault marines that have a nigh limitless possibility that no two ever look alike, but you're getting much better detail than the old runs on a better plastic that is more durable and works better with paint. On top of that you're getting a ton of extra bitz that will find their way to customizing more of my collection. So short answer YES I AM BUYING GW MINIATURES AND I WILL CONTINUE TO BUY THEM.
i bought the knew imperial knight this year, and more than 1 of most of the mechanicus stuffs. only 1 robot and 1 dominus.
actually I think GW models this year were really nice, i dont know why a lot of people here dont think the new GW models are good or that they are slipping. all of the skitarii and cult mechanicus other than the robot model were realy different.
all together i think about 800$ on GW in 2015 or maybe little bit more.
Marmax wrote: GW produces a quality product. I don't think that its too expensive. Not only are you getting ten assault marines that have a nigh limitless possibility that no two ever look alike, but you're getting much better detail than the old runs on a better plastic that is more durable and works better with paint. On top of that you're getting a ton of extra bitz that will find their way to customizing more of my collection. So short answer YES I AM BUYING GW MINIATURES AND I WILL CONTINUE TO BUY THEM.
For me the question of value often comes from what else I could buy with the money.
After kinda dropping GW I got far more into historical's . Getting 40 Perry English Men At ARMS for the same price as five space marines gives me far more value. In the same way I can get about 18 metal samurai for a Similar cost. For me those historical models are far better value for me and not just in terms of number of models but in terms of interest in the subject matter too.
As many have pointed out for them the money is well worth it, for others its not because either they don't feel that the price is worth it for the number of models they get or because of what they could spend that money on instead. Some of you will value five space marines far more than 40 English Knights.
If there was something I really wanted from GW I would buy it from them. But at the moment they don't really have anything that WOW's me and makes me want to reach into my pocket and pay the prices they ask.
carlos13th wrote: For me the question of value often comes from what else I could buy with the money.
Over the past 3 years, I basically stopped buying GW, and did Kickstarters instead. When these things finally finish arriving, I will certainly have gotten good value, although there is something to the immediate gratification of receiving GW stuff vs waiting months (or years).
After disappointment with deadzone I am quite careful about what I kick start now. I tend to kickstart things I want to exist that I fear wont without the kick starter or things that offer me something much cheaper than retail or unique to the kick starter.
Was on hiatus with my Beastmen army because it has alot of everything and I didn't have the time/inclination for building a Legion of Chaos from the End Times books, aside from what I had from previous attempts at Warriors and Daemon armies. The 9ed "what if" funk also put a damper on my purchases until...
The Khorne Daemonkin Codex hooked me from the getgo, and got me back into 40k. Currently buying bits and pieces to go with FW Khorne and militia upgrade kits atm. Bought a few boxes of Wrathmonger/Skullreapers for the conversion possibilities, some chaos daemon engines and the new Bloodthirster, as well as metal flesh hounds from E-bay.
I'll probably buy a force for each chaos god, if they release similiar products down the line.
NoPoet wrote: I keep getting emails from the GW about their new releases, and at first I thought there must be something wrong with my brain, as I am seeing horrifying price increases across the board. Army deals now seem to be starting at £250 and running upwards of £450, and (I can barely even conceive of this) I've just seen a standard Space Marine assault squad being advertised for pre-order at £50!
£50!
I'm guessing for this price they're hand-delivered in a golden Land Speeder and Rachael Leigh Cook gets out, kisses you passionately in front of all your friends then leads you to your bedroom for some saucy loving action, walks out of your house in a daze loudly proclaiming you as the best lover who ever lived, and the actual assault squad itself is hand-carved from jade by surviving Olmec wizards who are half-man, half-alien, and are prepared to share their secrets of telekinesis and longevity with you and only you - and Jervis Johnson pays your gas and electricity bills for the next six months?
There's no way in the world that these are just ten plastic models that have been available for the last ten or fifteen years, just given a makeover, and I assume that all new Space Marine armies henceforth will no longer include assault squads at all?
For me, personally, if I buy anything GW, it's second hand or if i have something like Amazon credit.
Their prices have gone completely into the realm of the absurd. Impulse buys that use to constitute the majority of my purchases have been gone for three or four years now. I wanted to pick up the new AdMech Magos Dominus, but at $36, could not justify it, that's more than similar Forgeworld models. In fact, FW's Magos Dominus is actually *cheaper* than GW's new plastic model, 20.50 Pounds for the FW one and 22 Pounds for the GW one. Just can't justify it any longer. Much like the Tempestus Scions replacing Kasrkin and coming out being even more expensive than FW Death Korps Grenadiers.
Ultimately, GW's revenue figures are public information, and while they've massively raised prices, far out of line with any sort of inflation, their inflation adjusted revenue is down over the last decade or more. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that they're moving *way* less product.
Who's paying FW prices for mainstream plastic kits? A lot fewer people.
Vaktathi wrote: ....Who's paying FW prices for mainstream plastic kits? A lot fewer people.
But clearly still a huge proportion of Wargamers.
I wouldnt be so sure. The way that the prices are dropping it wont be so long till they lose almost all customers baring the devoted cultist types.
I remember back in the good old days when my local GW was packed almost every day. These days they rarely have even a quarter of that in.
A 5 men SM Assault squad for 33 Euro is an expensive deal.
Atm, I'm more into WMH buying models and units from PP.
Still, I'm buying codices and paint, but no models for my Eldar and Necrons.
I think I've actually enjoyed putting Perry miniatures together more than GW ones. I guess it's the realistic proportions and poses. The cross compatibility with other models in their range don't hurt either, although GW also has that going for them.
I really don't know the reason. It felt like a chore for me when I was building Space Marines. With Perry I'm more excited like "Ooooh you look like you can sport a beard I'M GONNA PUT GREENSTUFF BEARD ON YOU" kind of excited.
I think that modellers and gamers will come at this from completely different directions.
Modellers, I assume would purchase a few kits a year/month and put them together with the end purpose of making them look fantastic so they can be displayed affectionately. They would spend an inordinate time making the kit perfect, and eventually the models would take their place, perhaps used for play a couple of times, but otherwise complete in their reason for being purchased.
The gamers fall in a spectrum closer or farther from modellers, but universally having interest in playing the game the models were designed for. It is my opinion that the game the models are designed for has become such a horrendous mess that gamers are seeing less and less value in GW products.
Now, obviously the two terms above are just part of a spectrum that people may or may not fall into, but I think it provides a general feel for the range of customers, and tends to explain why complaints have become so abundant. A majority of people purchase GW models for the purpose of playing a game- it doesn't really matter if they play the game, what is important is that their is a solid game at the end of the road. Think of the endgame content in an MMO- it's part of people aspire and work towards. With the endgame in question for the gamers, the product loses a substantial portion of its value.
GW, in its misconstrued belief that people who purchase their miniature are doing so for a collecting purpose only, are slowly eroding away their customer base. Many of people will be happy to keep purchasing, and that's perfectly fine and more power to them. But a lot will not be happy, and I don't know what form GW will exist in when the gaming portion starts to abandon the product.
I'm definitely more a gamer than modeller/painter/collector - and I left GW 5 years ago - even then it was apparent that to collect an army for any other system was cheaper. I enjoy playing games now for multiple systems against multiple opponents, for the cost of just one army from GW
yep, I still buy GW models, what is more I go to the GW store and pay the full whack and make sure I drive there in person (its a 1 hour round trip in the car)
I know exactly how easy it is to get 20% (a club house down the road) of and I also know that the real discount GW give the resellers is actually 35%
But I buy from the GW store deliberately to support it
Because they do everything for free, free tournaments, free boards to use, free terrain, free place to sit and paint and they charge no membership and all the extra money is like a sort of "tip" because of all the stuff they do for free.
I buy boxed sets a lot: like sanctus reach, space hulk, dark vengence, and I sell the orks/chaos
By doing that I usually spend about £20 to get £100 worth of minis, miniatures THAT DO NOT DEPRECIATE IN VALUE >- important -> so the other day I bought a Landraider, a Razor back and a dreadnaught and 2 squads of long fangs to go with my santctus reach set, yes it cost about £140 but now I am painting it up and will soon own a 1500 point fully painted SW army worth about £250 (if sold in a hurry) that cost me £160 so what is the big deal?
Your choice, obviously, but I'd take issue with your assertion that minis do not depreciate in value.
NOS, boxed models can command a decent percentage of their RRP, but once they're glued together, or, worse, painted, they lose a substantial percentage.
Equally, if GW update the kit, that can have a negative impact on the value of older models (until they're old enough to be considered collectible, assuming they're considered attractive by a sufficiet number of people.)
I just picked up a boxed, NOS Land Raider from eBay for almost 50% of retail including delivery, I'd say that's a pretty compelling example of GW minis depreciating in value significantly.
Vaktathi wrote: ....Who's paying FW prices for mainstream plastic kits? A lot fewer people.
But clearly still a huge proportion of Wargamers.
Oh I won't deny that. GW is still the big 400lb Gorilla in the room.
However, it's not the 800lb gorilla in a room of a few 20lb monkeys that it used to be, and now it's got a bunch of 150lb Chipanzees running around.
ConanMan wrote:yep, I still buy GW models, what is more I go to the GW store and pay the full whack and make sure I drive there in person (its a 1 hour round trip in the car)
I know exactly how easy it is to get 20% (a club house down the road) of and I also know that the real discount GW give the resellers is actually 35%
But I buy from the GW store deliberately to support it
Because they do everything for free, free tournaments, free boards to use, free terrain, free place to sit and paint and they charge no membership and all the extra money is like a sort of "tip" because of all the stuff they do for free.
I buy boxed sets a lot: like sanctus reach, space hulk, dark vengence, and I sell the orks/chaos
By doing that I usually spend about £20 to get £100 worth of minis, miniatures THAT DO NOT DEPRECIATE IN VALUE >- important -> so the other day I bought a Landraider, a Razor back and a dreadnaught and 2 squads of long fangs to go with my santctus reach set, yes it cost about £140 but now I am painting it up and will soon own a 1500 point fully painted SW army worth about £250 (if sold in a hurry) that cost me £160 so what is the big deal?
Much like Azrael13, I will dispute your assertion that your miniatures do not depreciate in value.
As soon as they're off the shelf, they're worth less. If you wanted to turn around and sell them, nobody is going to pay full retail from an individual. As soon as you open a box, they're worth a lot less. If you assemble them, they're worth even less (particularly as a player cannot pose the model themselves, build quality is hugely variable, and customizability has dropped). Only if you've built and painted them to a very high standard will they retain any value.
Azreal13 wrote: Your choice, obviously, but I'd take issue with your assertion that minis do not depreciate in value.
They don't depreciate the way I paint them, I could already sell my Land Raider for more than I bought it.
But I digress.
Also, if you're regularly doing it, fair enough, but if you just think you're adding value, I'd suggest you try and sell a mini for profit.
I'm generally satisfied with the standard of model I produce, I regularly get positive comments from people too, so I decided to try painting something and selling it, aaaand got exactly what they cost me, more or less.
Plus, there's a distinction between doing commissions and painting stuff in order to sell, much harder to make money at the latter, because you've got to produce something in a scheme somebody wants, not what someone has ordered.
Personally I was trying to be good, built up an entire Nurgle CSM army with bitz, alternate models and the occasional second hand Rhino from friends/ebay.
I regret to say I faltered after the Harlequins release and went a little spend crazy, and though I appreciate the models are well made, I do feel a little ripped off. The minimal poses in the new models is a little disappointing, not to mention the £16 characters that have no customisation options available to them... Currently have a backlog of old LotR miniatures to paint up, so will hopefully not have to buy another thing for a long LONG time
Azreal13 wrote: Your choice, obviously, but I'd take issue with your assertion that minis do not depreciate in value.
They don't depreciate the way I paint them, I could already sell my Land Raider for more than I bought it.
But I digress.
Also, if you're regularly doing it, fair enough, but if you just think you're adding value, I'd suggest you try and sell a mini for profit.
I'm generally satisfied with the standard of model I produce, I regularly get positive comments from people too, so I decided to try painting something and selling it, aaaand got exactly what they cost me, more or less.
Plus, there's a distinction between doing commissions and painting stuff in order to sell, much harder to make money at the latter, because you've got to produce something in a scheme somebody wants, not what someone has ordered.
i agree with you here, Az...
unpainted minis that are not limited editions, OOP, or exclusives, sell for about 50% MSRP...
selling painted models on eBay is not as lucrative as painting on commission, aside for the rare exception...
my eBay minis sell for an average of about 25% less than a commission, and that's on a good day...
Azreal13 wrote: Your choice, obviously, but I'd take issue with your assertion that minis do not depreciate in value.
They don't depreciate the way I paint them, I could already sell my Land Raider for more than I bought it.
But I digress.
Also, if you're regularly doing it, fair enough, but if you just think you're adding value, I'd suggest you try and sell a mini for profit.
I'm generally satisfied with the standard of model I produce, I regularly get positive comments from people too, so I decided to try painting something and selling it, aaaand got exactly what they cost me, more or less.
Plus, there's a distinction between doing commissions and painting stuff in order to sell, much harder to make money at the latter, because you've got to produce something in a scheme somebody wants, not what someone has ordered.
i agree with you here, Az...
unpainted minis that are not limited editions, OOP, or exclusives, sell for about 50% MSRP...
selling painted models on eBay is not as lucrative as painting on commission, aside for the rare exception...
my eBay minis sell for an average of about 25% less than a commission, and that's on a good day...
cheers
jah
Back when eBay was new and shiny, I could make a profit selling painted miniatures to unsuspecting victims selected clientele, and even make a living doing so.
Today, much harder.
And even back then, the real money was in the customers that came back, and ordered commissions.
the last time I turned a real profit on spec was a box of Mantic ghouls and zombies that included tombstones and etc. - my first experience with a dioramic base. Sold for a decent amount... and a week later I wished that I hadn't sold it.
Of course! I kinda have to since I'm starting out with 40k! That said, I tend to buy from Gifts For Geeks to take advantage of discounts, and I will admit that I'm not adverse to just getting stuff off eBay. And I might be adverse to particular things, I'd rather skip out on another pricy model if I don't need it (for one thing I'm trying to cobble together a proxy for Azrael from the Company Master model in the Dark Vengeance kit and some miscellaneous bits and Green Stuff, though I have other reasons for that two).
Also, while I'll willingly buy models, codexes are a different story. So far just downloaded .pdfs online and I don't even really feel guilty from it either. The prices and setup for buying those is simply ridiculous.
My only issue would be pulling my phone out at the table to look up rules, though I was advised to get around that by claiming to have bought the digital version.
i totally agree with most of that, TheAuldGrump...
as you say, the real value of eBay for a painter is that it attracts new commission clients, especially those who are not active on forums, and would not have found me otherwise...
as for it being much harder today, that depends on the painter...
i worked hard to establish a pedigree as an industry painter, and award winner, before going to eBay, so everything i paint sells...
i'm sure that i am the exception, rather than the rule, though...
i am also very particular about what i paint for eBay, as totally random stuff isn't going to be as easy to sell, nor will it bring as high a price...
one thing of interest to this topic, is that painted GW minis, especially 40k, sell much better than any other manufacturer's minis, and make up about 95% of my commissions and sales...
as much as i would love to paint more Infinity or PP stuff, people just seem to want more 40K minis than anything else...
if i paint an Infinity mini for eBay, i have to accept that it will sell for about half of what a 40K model would bring in, which is sad, because Infinity has some incredible sculpts...
either way you slice it, selling second hand minis is not going to make anyone rich, nor is painting minis...
that's why i live in the Third World...
i live two blocks from the beach, surf all day, and paint all night...
as much as i love my hometown, i sure as hell couldn't do that in Redondo Beach!!!
@jah -- Someone's going to rag on me for saying this, I'm sure, but it's my observation that the 40k "culture" includes painted models, with long-time players valuing really well-painted models (regardless of the quality of their own models).
On the other hand, for most other games, the miniatures are generally commonly seen as game pieces, with paint being optional/functional/exceptional. I'm not at all passing a judgment on or even comparing with other miniatures -- and yes, there are fantastic PP, Infinity and other models painted to an amazing level. Just generally, when I look at WMH, Malifaux, and Infinity tables, a lot of those players would be happy with X-Wing models, where they're pre-painted. It's really, really rare to see a PUG of random people at a FLGS with a WMH army painted to a "wow" level. It happens, just rarely. With 40k, it is really quite often when it comes to days/events when players are encouraged to parade their best armies (I never participate, because I hate transporting my best models, lol).
Also, just look at the "painted models" threads that pop up in the 40k forum every few weeks. I dare say, in other game systems, you have fewer players that are as passionate about requiring other players to have models painted to whatever standard they feel is minimal. Not to mention a seemingly significant population that refuses to play with anyone who doesn't paint their minis!
I still buy quite a bit of GW models and other products. I'm not concerned with the price. When one evaluates how much is wasted on things that are far less long lasting, such as food that will have come and gone by morning or fleeting moments of entertainment, the cost of miniatures that I will have in my possession and enjoy for years is pretty minor. I understand that there are many who struggle paying these prices and for them I can understand the anger over the price increase. It sucks watching richer friends build up their force while you're playing with dwarf models from the ancient past that look like garden gnomes, but even in those days I didn't have a grudge against GW,
I didn't buy any GW for over a year. Then I bought ONLY the Chaos models released during End Times. All of them: Bloodthirster, Glotkin, blightknights and skullreapers, Gutspume and Skarr, the Nurgle boxset (where BKs are from). And the two books, of course. Loved the models, wanted the fluff, and if 9th is great, I have a solid re-re-start on chaos. If it sucks, I have pretty models. And possible use in KoW.
Not as a big difference as I thought there would be...but....still...Gw is not quite the company they once were.
I'll put that no number up to 46 btw
Be aware, there are sycophants who repeat what most of the dakkadakka community says, but at night when everyone sleeps, they secretly order from the GW site
Azreal13 wrote: I just picked up a boxed, NOS Land Raider from eBay for almost 50% of retail including delivery, I'd say that's a pretty compelling example of GW minis depreciating in value significantly.
It is. It sounds like you got a great deal there. Though "almost 50% of retail" is a little vague... I mean, if we are being fair, you can always get 20% off the RRP if you're buying online. So a "new" land raider costs ~£36. If you were able to get your land raider for ~£18 I'd be impressed. But I rarely see land raiders on ebay for much under £30, even for badly painted ones. That's not a big saving over buying new from places like Dark Sphere or Wayland. The OOPRT Land raiders are usually over £50 regardless of condition, so I think it's fair to say they hold their value quite well.
I wish other things held their value so well. Clothes lose about 90% of their value as soon as you take the tags off. Things like phones and computers tend to be worthless after a couple of years too, as are some books.
I think a more pertinent issue, is whether miniatures will continue to hold their value after 3D printing takes hold. In thirty more years it might be so easy to replicate things like miniatures, the bottom could fall out of the 2nd hand market completely.
Not as a big difference as I thought there would be...but....still...Gw is not quite the company they once were.
I'll put that no number up to 46 btw
Be aware, there are sycophants who repeat what most of the dakkadakka community says, but at night when everyone sleeps, they secretly order from the GW site
lol .....I'm just repeating the facts as I see them presented.
However while I make fun of raging heroes..I did buy a ton of stuff form them ..so were all a little guilty.
I do think gw is massively over priced though. And its pretty easy to not buy more space marines from them when I have an epic ton floating around already
Azreal13 wrote: I just picked up a boxed, NOS Land Raider from eBay for almost 50% of retail including delivery, I'd say that's a pretty compelling example of GW minis depreciating in value significantly.
It is. It sounds like you got a great deal there. Though "almost 50% of retail" is a little vague... I mean, if we are being fair, you can always get 20% off the RRP if you're buying online. So a "new" land raider costs ~£36. If you were able to get your land raider for ~£18 I'd be impressed. But I rarely see land raiders on ebay for much under £30, even for badly painted ones. That's not a big saving over buying new from places like Dark Sphere or Wayland. The OOPRT Land raiders are usually over £50 regardless of condition, so I think it's fair to say they hold their value quite well.
I wish other things held their value so well. Clothes lose about 90% of their value as soon as you take the tags off. Things like phones and computers tend to be worthless after a couple of years too, as are some books.
I think a more pertinent issue, is whether miniatures will continue to hold their value after 3D printing takes hold. In thirty more years it might be so easy to replicate things like miniatures, the bottom could fall out of the 2nd hand market completely.
Ok, for the sake of clarity, I paid £25 for NOS Chaos Land Raider, including shipping. It's currently £46 on GWUK.com, and would qualify for free shipping. So, allowing for shipping costs, I'd guess I paid ~£22 for the model itself. (Shipping was 'free' but it never really is.)
jah-joshua wrote: i totally agree with most of that, TheAuldGrump...
as you say, the real value of eBay for a painter is that it attracts new commission clients, especially those who are not active on forums, and would not have found me otherwise...
as for it being much harder today, that depends on the painter...
i worked hard to establish a pedigree as an industry painter, and award winner, before going to eBay, so everything i paint sells...
i'm sure that i am the exception, rather than the rule, though...
i am also very particular about what i paint for eBay, as totally random stuff isn't going to be as easy to sell, nor will it bring as high a price...
one thing of interest to this topic, is that painted GW minis, especially 40k, sell much better than any other manufacturer's minis, and make up about 95% of my commissions and sales...
as much as i would love to paint more Infinity or PP stuff, people just seem to want more 40K minis than anything else...
if i paint an Infinity mini for eBay, i have to accept that it will sell for about half of what a 40K model would bring in, which is sad, because Infinity has some incredible sculpts...
either way you slice it, selling second hand minis is not going to make anyone rich, nor is painting minis...
that's why i live in the Third World...
i live two blocks from the beach, surf all day, and paint all night...
as much as i love my hometown, i sure as hell couldn't do that in Redondo Beach!!!
cheers
jah
For the last while that I was painting miniatures the big sellers weren't GW minis - but were for GW games. (I focused more on Fantasy than 40K. There is less competition for Fantasy, or at least there was. (I think that GW is killing the Warhammer Fantasy market with the way that they are handling the line.)
That painted unit of Mantic ghouls and zombies led to an order for 300(?!) more Mantic zombies, though in that case it was for Pathfinder. (Part of the reason that I wished I had kept the unit - and not helped by the customer wanting lots of zombies, not good looking zeds - 300 simple block, dip, detail, flock zombies. But thank the gods for dip.... it made it easy to do 300 zombies, even if I wasn't happy, at least the customer was.)
Nowadays... there are more reliable ways to make money, and I do commissions for friends and enjoy painting for myself and my friends more than I enjoyed the money from strangers.
The Auld Grump, gods, I haven't entered a competition in almost a decade....
rayphoton wrote: So based on this forum....
People who still buy are 29
It "seems" correct from what I have seen at my FLGS.
People who did by but now don't are 45
Speaking from that age bracket usually not much is bought BUT may buy a "one of each" just to try the models out and that is about it.
My squads seem to each represent a different generation of marine releases so they are characterful through that means.
Not as a big difference as I thought there would be...but....still...Gw is not quite the company they once were.
I'll put that no number up to 46 btw
That is what makes all the grumpy comments and possibly rage is from the older crowd.
The company that was had been such an engaged community and really can generate some nostalgia.
The aloof "give us your money" company of today is such a stark contrast, while the new players really see no big deal about it because they did not have the prior experience.
When it comes to selling and buying on eBay, there are ridiculous bargains; I got two fully painted and modelled GUOs for £16 each, two Predators (one needing work) for £15, a land raider/rhino/predator for £35 and a bumload of Giant Rats (not GW) and Rat Swarms for about £15, we're talking at least 25 giant rats here.
On the other hand things like Beasts of Nurgle and Fiends of Slaanesh are rare and upwards of £30 each. I very often see models selling for close to their GW price. My fully modelled and painted Death Guard dreadnoughts were an exception atabout £15 each but painted models and full armies are outrageously priced. I *do* pay more for painted and converted models, but I'm not paying a grand for a 1500-point army.
NoPoet wrote: I keep getting emails from the GW about their new releases, and at first I thought there must be something wrong with my brain, as I am seeing horrifying price increases across the board. Army deals now seem to be starting at £250 and running upwards of £450, and (I can barely even conceive of this) I've just seen a standard Space Marine assault squad being advertised for pre-order at £50!
£50!
I'm guessing for this price they're hand-delivered in a golden Land Speeder and Rachael Leigh Cook gets out, kisses you passionately in front of all your friends then leads you to your bedroom for some saucy loving action, walks out of your house in a daze loudly proclaiming you as the best lover who ever lived, and the actual assault squad itself is hand-carved from jade by surviving Olmec wizards who are half-man, half-alien, and are prepared to share their secrets of telekinesis and longevity with you and only you - and Jervis Johnson pays your gas and electricity bills for the next six months?
There's no way in the world that these are just ten plastic models that have been available for the last ten or fifteen years, just given a makeover, and I assume that all new Space Marine armies henceforth will no longer include assault squads at all?
A 5 man version is still available for £25, which is exactly the same price as the last kit, but with a newer sculpt, and bits.
Azreal13 wrote: I'd suggest the younger players may have different objections to us pensioners, but it seems from the last few reports, they're still objecting.
Unless the vet crowd was a much bigger element of GW's customer base than is commonly represented.
Sounds like something that can be answered with *gasp* market research!
Now that my HH army is done, I haven't bought anything in a while. Some of the mechanicus stuff looks nice, but I have Reaper Bones I and Reaper Bones II kickstarters that I'm working on.
I guess you can say I've switched gears.
I will buy the Space Marine Codex and the HH book 5 that just came out...eventually. No hurry or sense of excitement like I've had in the past.
winterwind85 wrote: There Are still People around with such low income they Cant afford gw Minis?
Spend your Time gettin a better job rather than whining in the Internet.
Sorry but so Done with mimimi i have no Money... Gw should give away Minis for free mimimi
This is a joke, right?
I thought the thread itself was a joke...
Obviously nobody has purchased a single GW miniatures since 1995 right?
I mean I have bought and seen people buy stuff but maybe its just a glitch in the Matrix...
Can the thread be renamed to something more accurate such as "I want to rant about GW, who's with me?!?"
I still pick up stuff, mostly LOTR stuff, but I haven't bought into the new hobbit minis. If I saw some at a discount somewhere I would go for it.
I wouldn't do an entire army out of GW miniatures anymore though, I think. Because there are too many other decent options on the market, and my tastes have moved away from the 40K and Fantasy aesthetics.
I'm buying more GW stuff than PP though, even though I like the PP game better, the models (specifically the materials they are made from and their inconsistent scaling and proportions) are not worth it for me with no community to use them in.
Not sure why you'd think. Maybe if you thought its because GW's prices are a joke.
Obviously nobody has purchased a single GW miniatures since 1995 right?
The hardcore haven't bought one since 1895. Get with it man. If you're going to be a hater, might as well go balls out.
I mean I have bought and seen people buy stuff but maybe its just a glitch in the Matrix...
Definitely a glitch. An agent will be along shortly.
Can the thread be renamed to something more accurate such as "I want to rant about GW, who's with me?!?"
I felt the thread's purpose was pretty obvious. There was reasonable discussion for much of the thread, and it can continue if people are willing to, you know, discuss.
For many people its not about the amount of money they have available to spend on their hobby.
But more to do with not wanting to support the incompetent corporate management in charge at GW plc.
GW plc admit to a 76% gross profit before the cost of logistic and retail is factored in.
(GW sources tell me logistics runs at about 10% of gross profits.)
So without the cost of GWs own retail chain they would have a nett profit of about 68%.
After the cost of GW s own retail chain is taken out , they are left with less than 13% nett profit.
So the GW plc retail chain cost them 55% of their turn over.And only generates 43% of sales.
They spend £68M on their own shops to get £53M worth of sales.(To generate appx £38M profit.)
They spend less than £2M on the remaining sales channels that generate £70M of sales .(To generate appx £42M profit.)
So if GW did not have its own expensive retail chain and just sold through independent retailers.
They could halve the retail price , and make more nett profit due to increased sales and massively reduced overheads.
If GW plc was run effectively as either a games company , or effectively as a minatures company,
GWs customers would get much better value for money from GW plc.
I refuse to pay the 'incompetent management' tax (appx 45% of the RRP) GW plc want to charge.
Others may feel the GW products are worth the artificially inflated price for what ever reason.
If you ever have chance to read 'The little red book' , it will tell you exactly how low an opinion the GW corporate management has of GW customers.
- How much GW loves me
- Whether or not the CEO is an ass
- How well GW is managed
- GW's financial statements and annual profits
- The profit margin on models
Things I do care about:
- Whether I think the models are nice
- Whether I am ok with the prices of the models
- Whether the people who I DO talk to at GW are friendly and helpful
- Whether I enjoy reading the books
- Whether I enjoy the playing game
If I'm buying a model, I DO care about whether I'm paying $20 for a kit or $75 for a kit. I really don't care about whether it cost $0.05 to make, or $45 to make, because that's not my problem. Frankly, I'm happy for a company if they make good profit on a product. There is nothing at all wrong with making a healthy profit margin; it allows you to pay your employees better and incentivizes you to create more product.
To say, "If GW were run more effectively, they could give me x, y and z" sounds ridiculous to me. Why should they do anything other than produce a product for the most total profit for them?
I got the decision of buying GW stuff taken out of my hands back in 2011. I was living in a country outside the EU (with no gaming stores) and entirely reliant on orders from Wayland Games, Maelstrom etc. I then had a £200 or so order cancelled when GW brought in the 'out of EU sales' ban, and that plan for a new WHFB army went on hold.
Ultimately after having a chat with the guy from the store I ended up looking around the rest of the webstore and starting up Infinity..
Would I have still tried to play other games without that policy change? Undoubtedly (I already played FoW and some other historicals) but that helped push me towards looking at sci-fi/fantasy outside of 40k and WHFB. Now feel like my hobby is much more complete because of it!
- How much GW loves me
- Whether or not the CEO is an ass
- How well GW is managed
- GW's financial statements and annual profits
- The profit margin on models
Things I do care about:
- Whether I think the models are nice
- Whether I am ok with the prices of the models
- Whether the people who I DO talk to at GW are friendly and helpful
- Whether I enjoy reading the books
- Whether I enjoy the playing game
If I'm buying a model, I DO care about whether I'm paying $20 for a kit or $75 for a kit. I really don't care about whether it cost $0.05 to make, or $45 to make, because that's not my problem. Frankly, I'm happy for a company if they make good profit on a product. There is nothing at all wrong with making a healthy profit margin; it allows you to pay your employees better and incentivizes you to create more product.
To say, "If GW were run more effectively, they could give me x, y and z" sounds ridiculous to me. Why should they do anything other than produce a product for the most total profit for them?
That's both naive and myopic.
If GW aren't making good decisions, or making models that people other than just you like, or writing books other people enjoy, or making a game other people like playing, or charging a price other people find good value, there'll be no more GW.
Then where will all these things you care about be?
But then, your "I'm alright Jack" attitude is pretty obvious to anyone who's seen more than a handful of your posts, and while, objectively, you're completely correct to place what you like and enjoy ahead of everything else, it is a selfish attitude and if things are happening that are causing other people to turn their backs on GW and spend less on their product, simply declaring "well, never mind these things don't bother me" is ultimately going to damage the "GW hobby" you profess to love so much.
Not really. As an end consumer, I don't have any moral duty to anything other than my own enjoyment. I buy what I want, when I want to. That's how the market works.
Sure, goodwill and support can keep a struggling, garage shop type business open a bit longer, but GW is a publically traded firm. My decisions don't affect them much, and there's nothing anybody can do to change GW.
The wargaming hobby isn't like some massive business like consumer electronics or FMCG, it's much more of a community, but that's irrelevant, the point I was making is taking the attitude of I don't care about things that don't affect me when those things could very much affect you in the bigger picture sense is daft, because if you're the only one left enjoying things, you've got a bit of a problem.
It isn't a question of consumer morality, it's a question of short sightedness.
Mixed feelings about this, on one hand I would like that GW moved away from the current path by making it affordable for a wider audience, on the other hand I could care less about their red book or similar BS.
Im kind of selfish I guess because I cannot resist good minis regardless of who does them.
Well, realistically, that's probably the way forward. A flat boycott won't achieve much because there's no lines of communication for the, to understand why. If you only buy items you feel are of sufficient quality to justify the price, while they may not understand why you've bought it, there is at least a chance they'll try and repeat their success and hit the mark again.
Polonius wrote: Vets also don't need to buy that many, if any, models.
I have plenty of IG. Why do I need to buy more?
Not everybody has over 10k points of IG, with all Codex and Apocalypse entries covered.
Even then, maybe you want Allies. Like Knights. Or Ad Mech.
I was fine with my IG until Apoc, and then I picked up a Superheavy. I was similarly satisfied with my Eldar until the recent Codex; now I own a Wraithknight.
Polonius wrote: Vets also don't need to buy that many, if any, models.
I have plenty of IG. Why do I need to buy more?
Not everybody has over 10k points of IG, with all Codex and Apocalypse entries covered.
Even then, maybe you want Allies. Like Knights. Or Ad Mech.
I was fine with my IG until Apoc, and then I picked up a Superheavy. I was similarly satisfied with my Eldar until the recent Codex; now I own a Wraithknight.
Plus, vets used to be the folks that collected multiple armies - and when somebody wanted to try, oh, let's say Orks, the Vet would have a force of Snakebites, Bad Moons, Goffs, or Evil Suns that the newb could try - which would often led to a new player and collector being born.
Now my extra armies are for different games - but I still buy models for those games.
Every single model that I buy for another game is a sale lost to GW.
And I no longer have spare armies to loan to new players for GW games, but I have brought people into Kings of War and Deadzone - which are more sales that are lost to GW. (GW lost a group of about twenty players from my local area in one swell foop with WHFB 8th edition - and it looks like few if any will be coming back with 9th edition.)
A company that depends on word of mouth for its advertising really cannot afford to alienate the long time fans of their products.
The Auld Grump, or does that tread too close to market research?
I'm going to make a generalization: it seems many of the folks who buy GW do so to the exclusion of other choices. Why is that? GW models are available second hand for much cheaper.
Polonius wrote: Vets also don't need to buy that many, if any, models.
I have plenty of IG. Why do I need to buy more?
Not everybody has over 10k points of IG, with all Codex and Apocalypse entries covered.
Even then, maybe you want Allies. Like Knights. Or Ad Mech.
I was fine with my IG until Apoc, and then I picked up a Superheavy. I was similarly satisfied with my Eldar until the recent Codex; now I own a Wraithknight.
Plus, vets used to be the folks that collected multiple armies - and when somebody wanted to try, oh, let's say Orks, the Vet would have a force of Snakebites, Bad Moons, Goffs, or Evil Suns that the newb could try - which would often led to a new player and collector being born.
Now my extra armies are for different games - but I still buy models for those games.
Every single model that I buy for another game is a sale lost to GW.
And I no longer have spare armies to loan to new players for GW games, but I have brought people into Kings of War and Deadzone - which are more sales that are lost to GW. (GW lost a group of about twenty players from my local area in one swell foop with WHFB 8th edition - and it looks like few if any will be coming back with 9th edition.)
A company that depends on word of mouth for its advertising really cannot afford to alienate the long time fans of their products.
The Auld Grump, or does that tread too close to market research?
Back in the old days, GW armies were narrower and smaller, so you'd play a different army for variety's sake. Now, armies are vast, so it's better to concentrate on just a few.
I completely agree that hobby spend is zero sum, but why buy into open-ended systems? I think I'm doing far better buy focusing on miniatures board games that don't require painting, and don't require additional purchases outside the box. And those miniatures games that could grow? Best practice to convert them into 2- or 4-player board games.
WFB 8E got me to stop playing and mothball my stuff, but I might come back for 9th. We'll see.
Given that most of this whole forum is about gw games and products, they obviously are. People who are happily enjoying their hobby just don't seem to make as much noise about it as those who have taken an issue with gw. I happily still buy from them.
One note on prices, 2nd ed 40k, £40 dark millenium was £25. You got twenty Marines, twenty gretchin and twenty Orcs if memory serves correctly) and a cardboard ork dreadnought. Two very dull armies. £65 total to get into the hobby.
7th ed, all the rules that you needed core+dm to get in 2nd, and two phenomenal starter armies. £65 total to get into the hobby. Yes some things are more expensive, but not everything.
JamesY wrote: Given that most of this whole forum is about gw games and products, they obviously are.
You...you see all the other boards which are nothing to do with GWwhatsoever right? Like, dozens of them?
Or is there some "fingers in the ears" mode Lego introduced for the True Believers?
Yes I do, as I play quite a few games that aren't gw. But I can also see where most of the traffic is. My enjoying gw products doesn't blind me thanks.
JamesY wrote: Given that most of this whole forum is about gw games and products, they obviously are.
You...you see all the other boards which are nothing to do with GWwhatsoever right? Like, dozens of them?
Or is there some "fingers in the ears" mode Lego introduced for the True Believers?
But they still take up a great deal of the available real estate on this site.
I am more concerned with the folks that know that GW is misbehavin', and mismanaged into the bargain - but don't seem to care.
I like Forge World stuff - there are some gorgeous models, and that portion of the GW empire does not seem to hold their fan base in contempt... but I will not buy from them, because to do so would to still be supporting GW.
Likewise, I don't buy from Black Library.
I do not call it a boycott - I just call it not buying from GW.
The wargaming hobby isn't like some massive business like consumer electronics or FMCG, it's much more of a community, but that's irrelevant, the point I was making is taking the attitude of I don't care about things that don't affect me when those things could very much affect you in the bigger picture sense is daft, because if you're the only one left enjoying things, you've got a bit of a problem.
It isn't a question of consumer morality, it's a question of short sightedness.
If the problem is that you're enjoying a product, what's the product?
Look, I get your point. I stopped playing 40k because I don't like the rules, and I don't buy the models because I have better options. So I see that gamers are affected by GW. but.... If someone enjoys the game and the models, it's the height of arrogance to say t hey shouldn't buy what they like.
It might be short sighted (although I don't think it is, given how impenetrable GW has been to falling sales thus far), but even conceding your point, why not be short sighted? Gaming "careers" end suddenly all the time. A job change, an FLGS closes, having a kid, whatever. I'm not going to ask anybody to set aside enjoying their hobby now for the good of a community they may not be in a year from now.
Neither am I, I'm just saying that declaring "x doesn't affect me for y reasons" when, in reality it very much does affect you, you're just being too myopic, wilfully or no, to see it, is a really poor stance to take.
By all means go about your business and do the things you love, but don't declare "this price rise doesn't affect me, because I can afford it" when the reality is it does affect you, you're just prepared to overlook it or "these new rules being terrible isn't so bad, because I'll just house rule it with my gaming group until it works for me" when in reality spending top of the market prices for something you need to extensively modify to be workable is terrible, whether you mind doing it or not, and when you factor in the way it could drive players away, meaning that precisely when your gaming group changes jobs, has kids etc there's no new players around to replace them, it very much affects everyone.
It just varies how far in front of your nose you're prepared to look.
We all have our hobby that is personal to ourselves. Nobody owes anybody anything other than the respect to allow them to pursue their own hobby as they see fit, and to do the same ourself. If you don't want gw's products, fine, if you do want them, that's fine too. For me, when I came back into the hobby after a thirteen year break, the variety on the market compared to when I left was incredible. There are miniatures for all tastes, which is how it should be. Who individuals chose to spend their hard earned cash on is up to them. There is no single gaming community that is owed allegiance, and the idea that a company should be avoided for it's benefit is frankly ridiculous.
Azreal13 wrote: Neither am I, I'm just saying that declaring "x doesn't affect me for y reasons" when, in reality it very much does affect you, you're just being too myopic, wilfully or no, to see it, is a really poor stance to take.
By all means go about your business and do the things you love, but don't declare "this price rise doesn't affect me, because I can afford it" when the reality is it does affect you, you're just prepared to overlook it or "these new rules being terrible isn't so bad, because I'll just house rule it with my gaming group until it works for me" when in reality spending top of the market prices for something you need to extensively modify to be workable is terrible, whether you mind doing it or not, and when you factor in the way it could drive players away, meaning that precisely when your gaming group changes jobs, has kids etc there's no new players around to replace them, it very much affects everyone.
It just varies how far in front of your nose you're prepared to look.
ok, explain to me exactly how a high price effects me if i am not feeling effected by it, because i am not seeing your reasoning...
keep in mind, i am not talking about profit margins, perceived value, game rules, or bad behavior by incompetent management...
i am simply a guy who buys models, whose price increases every year, but continues to buy the ones i like...
so, how does the price rise effect me???
i am genuinely curious...
Azreal13 wrote: Neither am I, I'm just saying that declaring "x doesn't affect me for y reasons" when, in reality it very much does affect you, you're just being too myopic, wilfully or no, to see it, is a really poor stance to take.
By all means go about your business and do the things you love, but don't declare "this price rise doesn't affect me, because I can afford it" when the reality is it does affect you, you're just prepared to overlook it or "these new rules being terrible isn't so bad, because I'll just house rule it with my gaming group until it works for me" when in reality spending top of the market prices for something you need to extensively modify to be workable is terrible, whether you mind doing it or not, and when you factor in the way it could drive players away, meaning that precisely when your gaming group changes jobs, has kids etc there's no new players around to replace them, it very much affects everyone.
It just varies how far in front of your nose you're prepared to look.
What are you actually proposing here? That people who don't have a problem with the products, and want to buy them, shouldn't, so that the company changes to make those that do have a problem happy? I think you are the only one not seeing past your own nose here mate.
Azreal13 wrote: Neither am I, I'm just saying that declaring "x doesn't affect me for y reasons" when, in reality it very much does affect you, you're just being too myopic, wilfully or no, to see it, is a really poor stance to take.
By all means go about your business and do the things you love, but don't declare "this price rise doesn't affect me, because I can afford it" when the reality is it does affect you, you're just prepared to overlook it or "these new rules being terrible isn't so bad, because I'll just house rule it with my gaming group until it works for me" when in reality spending top of the market prices for something you need to extensively modify to be workable is terrible, whether you mind doing it or not, and when you factor in the way it could drive players away, meaning that precisely when your gaming group changes jobs, has kids etc there's no new players around to replace them, it very much affects everyone.
It just varies how far in front of your nose you're prepared to look.
ok, explain to me exactly how a high price effects me if i am not feeling effected by it, because i am not seeing your reasoning...
keep in mind, i am not talking about profit margins, perceived value, game rules, or bad behavior by incompetent management...
i am simply a guy who buys models, whose price increases every year, but continues to buy the ones i like...
so, how does the price rise effect me???
i am genuinely curious...
cheers
jah
Well, it's simple, and the fact you're asking me to explain it is a little concerning tbh.
Unless you have literally infinite money, if you're spending more on something, you have less to spend on something else.
That you're ok with this doesn't make it any less true.
Azreal13 wrote: Neither am I, I'm just saying that declaring "x doesn't affect me for y reasons" when, in reality it very much does affect you, you're just being too myopic, wilfully or no, to see it, is a really poor stance to take.
By all means go about your business and do the things you love, but don't declare "this price rise doesn't affect me, because I can afford it" when the reality is it does affect you, you're just prepared to overlook it or "these new rules being terrible isn't so bad, because I'll just house rule it with my gaming group until it works for me" when in reality spending top of the market prices for something you need to extensively modify to be workable is terrible, whether you mind doing it or not, and when you factor in the way it could drive players away, meaning that precisely when your gaming group changes jobs, has kids etc there's no new players around to replace them, it very much affects everyone.
It just varies how far in front of your nose you're prepared to look.
What are you actually proposing here? That people who don't have a problem with the products, and want to buy them, shouldn't, so that the company changes to make those that do have a problem happy? I think you are the only one not seeing past your own nose here mate.
Hey, nice strawman!
Not what I was saying at all. I mean, it isn't like I said this..
By all means go about your business and do the things you love
In the very post you quoted.
I'm saying don't claim things don't affect you when the reality is they do affect you but you're ok with it.
He means the price rises affect everyone. Many of us have seen the number of players decrease (less players, less money to GW and so on means that this effects you as GW may struggle to continue and or you are left with less players).
Also you cannot say paying more for less doesn't affect you, even if you are looking past that. When dire avengers got their box halved and the price increased, even if you still buy that box you have suffered.
Those are just a few examples of how constant price rises and boxes being reduced can slowly (or quickly) change your experience in playing GW games. Especially since playing wargames is a community hobby.
I think you are being ridiculous to be honest. You are talking as if people enjoying and pursuing the hobby is somehow detrimental to it's future. It's always been a pricey hobby. Was 26 yrs ago when I got into it, still is. Never struggled to get a game of 40k or fantasy though. Prices go up. Polos used to be 10p a tube. Now they are more. Who cares?
My point was, and remains, discounting a problem that has wider reaching implications because it doesn't affect you is myopic and self defeating.
But then, as you're clearly the sort of person I was referring to, there's absolutely no point in continuing the discussion, as you're likely incapable of appreciating where I'm coming from.
JamesY wrote: I think you are being ridiculous to be honest. You are talking as if people enjoying and pursuing the hobby is somehow detrimental to it's future. It's always been a pricey hobby. Was 26 yrs ago when I got into it, still is. Never struggled to get a game of 40k or fantasy though. Prices go up. Polos used to be 10p a tube. Now they are more. Who cares?
I'm convinced you're not actually reading the posts.
Read them again.
The point is that rising prices affect many more people than just yourself, and that every person who stops buying and/or playing shrinks 40k. Given enough time and price rises, you'll soon find yourself without any opponents. Hence the statement that price rises affect you, just not immediately.
In other words, you should care that other people are leaving because of the prices. Eventually the prices may reach the point where even you stop and think before hitting 'Add to Cart'.
Finally, the hobby has never been pricey. GW is not a hobby, and wargaming has never been particularly expensive in the grand scheme of things.
Azreal13 wrote: My point was, and remains, discounting a problem that has wider reaching implications because it doesn't affect you is myopic and self defeating.
But then, as you're clearly the sort of person I was referring to, there's absolutely no point in continuing the discussion, as you're likely incapable of appreciating where I'm coming from.
Play nice, now.
The Auld Grump <== the person that calls such folks suckers....
Azreal13 wrote: Neither am I, I'm just saying that declaring "x doesn't affect me for y reasons" when, in reality it very much does affect you, you're just being too myopic, wilfully or no, to see it, is a really poor stance to take.
By all means go about your business and do the things you love, but don't declare "this price rise doesn't affect me, because I can afford it" when the reality is it does affect you, you're just prepared to overlook it or "these new rules being terrible isn't so bad, because I'll just house rule it with my gaming group until it works for me" when in reality spending top of the market prices for something you need to extensively modify to be workable is terrible, whether you mind doing it or not, and when you factor in the way it could drive players away, meaning that precisely when your gaming group changes jobs, has kids etc there's no new players around to replace them, it very much affects everyone.
It just varies how far in front of your nose you're prepared to look.
ok, explain to me exactly how a high price effects me if i am not feeling effected by it, because i am not seeing your reasoning...
keep in mind, i am not talking about profit margins, perceived value, game rules, or bad behavior by incompetent management...
i am simply a guy who buys models, whose price increases every year, but continues to buy the ones i like...
so, how does the price rise effect me???
i am genuinely curious...
cheers
jah
Well, it's simple, and the fact you're asking me to explain it is a little concerning tbh.
Unless you have literally infinite money, if you're spending more on something, you have less to spend on something else.
That you're ok with this doesn't make it any less true.
You really needed that explained?
i had a feeling that would be your argument...
my question, is why is that a problem???
would i be uspset if GW's prices were lower???
of course not...
am i upset that the price of damn near everything in the world goes up year by year???
not really...
you are arguing a point that doesn't really matter, and which i would say is purely a question of semantics...
since you can't seem to accept "i don't feel effected by it", would you be happier if i change my wording to "i am not bothered by it"???
would you feel like you won, and stop beating the same drum over and over???
well, there you go, you win, and i will go cry in my paint and say, "woe is me, the world is such a cruel place, with GW making me spend an extra $2.50 for 5 Assault Marines that look way more awesome, and come with way more options than the previous set"...
this is why i say i don't feel effected by a price increase...
i am getting what i perceive to be a better product, for only a few dollars more than the previous set...
it seems like a fair trade...
I am unaffected by something =\= I am ok with how this affects me.
Plus, as I said, there are wider implications to changes which may illicit negative reactions from others even if they don't with you.
I mean, one assumes you charge more for a commission if the base cost of the kit goes up? What does that mean when the base cost of the kit creeps up sufficiently that people are less frequently willing to pay you to paint them? Unlikely to happen as the result of one incremental increase, but given enough incremental increases over a long enough time...
Wow. Such a lack of reading comprehension. They've stated their argument that bad business practices hurt everyone, including you, and yet you continue to misunderstand on a fundamental level.
Azreal13 wrote: Neither am I, I'm just saying that declaring "x doesn't affect me for y reasons" when, in reality it very much does affect you, you're just being too myopic, wilfully or no, to see it, is a really poor stance to take.
By all means go about your business and do the things you love, but don't declare "this price rise doesn't affect me, because I can afford it" when the reality is it does affect you, you're just prepared to overlook it or "these new rules being terrible isn't so bad, because I'll just house rule it with my gaming group until it works for me" when in reality spending top of the market prices for something you need to extensively modify to be workable is terrible, whether you mind doing it or not, and when you factor in the way it could drive players away, meaning that precisely when your gaming group changes jobs, has kids etc there's no new players around to replace them, it very much affects everyone.
It just varies how far in front of your nose you're prepared to look.
ok, explain to me exactly how a high price effects me if i am not feeling effected by it, because i am not seeing your reasoning...
keep in mind, i am not talking about profit margins, perceived value, game rules, or bad behavior by incompetent management...
i am simply a guy who buys models, whose price increases every year, but continues to buy the ones i like...
so, how does the price rise effect me???
i am genuinely curious...
cheers
jah
Well, it's simple, and the fact you're asking me to explain it is a little concerning tbh.
Unless you have literally infinite money, if you're spending more on something, you have less to spend on something else.
That you're ok with this doesn't make it any less true.
You really needed that explained?
i had a feeling that would be your argument...
my question, is why is that a problem???
would i be uspset if GW's prices were lower???
of course not...
am i upset that the price of damn near everything in the world goes up year by year???
not really...
you are arguing a point that doesn't really matter, and which i would say is purely a question of semantics...
since you can't seem to accept "i don't feel effected by it", would you be happier if i change my wording to "i am not bothered by it"???
would you feel like you won, and stop beating the same drum over and over???
well, there you go, you win, and i will go cry in my paint and say, "woe is me, the world is such a cruel place, with GW making me spend an extra $2.50 for 5 Assault Marines that look way more awesome, and come with way more options than the previous set"...
this is why i say i don't feel effected by a price increase...
i am getting what i perceive to be a better product, for only a few dollars more than the previous set...
it seems like a fair trade...
cheers
jah
and we have the first exalt of this glorious saturday morning
NoPoet wrote: I keep getting emails from the GW about their new releases, and at first I thought there must be something wrong with my brain, as I am seeing horrifying price increases across the board. Army deals now seem to be starting at £250 and running upwards of £450, and (I can barely even conceive of this) I've just seen a standard Space Marine assault squad being advertised for pre-order at £50!
£50!
I'm guessing for this price they're hand-delivered in a golden Land Speeder and Rachael Leigh Cook gets out, kisses you passionately in front of all your friends then leads you to your bedroom for some saucy loving action, walks out of your house in a daze loudly proclaiming you as the best lover who ever lived, and the actual assault squad itself is hand-carved from jade by surviving Olmec wizards who are half-man, half-alien, and are prepared to share their secrets of telekinesis and longevity with you and only you - and Jervis Johnson pays your gas and electricity bills for the next six months?
There's no way in the world that these are just ten plastic models that have been available for the last ten or fifteen years, just given a makeover, and I assume that all new Space Marine armies henceforth will no longer include assault squads at all?
I am unaffected by something =\= I am ok with how this affects me.
Plus, as I said, there are wider implications to changes which may illicit negative reactions from others even if they don't with you.
I mean, one assumes you charge more for a commission if the base cost of the kit goes up? What does that mean when the base cost of the kit creeps up sufficiently that people are less frequently willing to pay you to paint them? Unlikely to happen as the result of one incremental increase, but given enough incremental increases over a long enough time...
i conceded to you that i would stop saying "this does not effect me", and instead say, "i am not bothered"...
i accept that others may be bothered, and never argued otherwise...
the topic is "Is anyone still buying GW models?", and my answer is yes...
i haven't told anybody that they are wrong to be put-off by the prices...
my commission rates do not take the price of a kit into consideration...
if i own the kit, i will not charge the client for it...
if i don't own the kit, the customer has to buy it, and i will get them the best price possible on it...
i don't charge for prep and assembly either, as i don't want to have a client decide that saving a few bucks is worth the sight of moldlines...
i would rather make the client happy with a free model and prep, get to do top-quality work, and earn client loyalty...
in 12 years as a professional painter, business has remained constant...
there have been price increases, by many manufacturers, throughout the last decade, the only difference is that GW is the most blatant about it, with the highest rate of increases...
like i said, i get why that may put others off...
my point is, it doesn't put me off, and doesn't lead to less work for me...
will it in the future???
i don't know...
i can sympathize with the unhappy people, without joining in the protests and boycotts...
MWHistorian wrote: Wow. Such a lack of reading comprehension. They've stated their argument that bad business practices hurt everyone, including you, and yet you continue to misunderstand on a fundamental level.
how is it a lack of reading comprehension, or misunderstanding on a fundamental level???
i conceded to Az that yes, a price rise means that i will spend a few more dollars, as that is indisputable...
i say that i think it is worth it to have an improved kit, and he says that is a whole different arguement...
that's fine, as i already conceded his point, even though he chose to overlook that fact...
now, you say that bad business practices hurt everyone, and i say that an improved kit, for a few dollars more than the last kit, is not bad business at all, but a fair trade...
so again, i ask you, where is the lack of reading comprehension, or misunderstanding on a fundamental level???
it is a disagreement, not a misunderstanding...
keep in mind, the topic is about "buying GW models", not "is GW the Great Satan"...
as to your last post, saying GW prices will bother me in the future, nobody can really say...
we don't know how far GW prices will rise in the future, or if i have a tipping point...
i'm not going to stress about something that may happen somewhere down the line, but i understand why people are angry now...
what i don't understand is why people want to insist that i should be angry...
MWHistorian wrote: Wow. Such a lack of reading comprehension. They've stated their argument that bad business practices hurt everyone, including you, and yet you continue to misunderstand on a fundamental level.
i conceded to Az that yes, a price rise means that i will spend a few more dollars, as that is indisputable...
That's not what the argument is about.
now, you say that bad business practices hurt everyone, and i say that an improved kit, for a few dollars more than the last kit, is not bad business at all, but a fair trade...
so again, i ask you, where is the lack of reading comprehension, or misunderstanding on a fundamental level???
The fundamental argument is that the bad business practices (including the too high prices preventing new players and pushing old ones away) hurts the remaining players and collectors. The shrinking customer base could eventually cause GW to go under and you will no longer have the minis that you love.
it is a disagreement, not a misunderstanding...
keep in mind, the topic is about "buying GW models", not "is GW the Great Satan"...
No one's saying that. But we are saying that many are bothered by GW's bad practices. Thus shrinking the customer base and possibly causing GW to go under.
as to your last post, saying GW prices will bother me in the future, nobody can really say...
we don't know how far GW prices will rise in the future, or if i have a tipping point...
i'm not going to stress about something that may happen somewhere down the line, but i understand why people are angry now...
what i don't understand is why people want to insist that i should be angry...
We're not insisting that you be angry, but that you should realize that other people's being angry can and probably will affect you.
@MWHistorian: my point is that i don't know if other people being angry at GW will have an effect on me in the future...
you can say it will, and i can only say i don't know...
like Rackham and Ilyad, if GW goes under, i will still have the minis i love, because i bought them when they were available...
if i could lower GW prices, and bring all of the lost customers back, i would...
if i could bring back Rackham and Ilyad, i would...
am i going to stop buying the minis i like, simply because Kirby and his boys are greedy bastards???
no, i'm not...
i don't want to see GW fail and their products disappear, so i do my bit by buying the products i like...
I'm pretty sure everyone understands that less people playing GW games is bad for people who enjoy playing GW games... But what are we supposed to do about it? I continue buying, playing, and introducing new people to the hobby, because I enjoy it and want other people to discover and enjoy it as well. If less people do so, that's bad for me and my gaming group in the long run, but if I stopped buying GW I would only accelerate that process, which is even worse.
JamesY wrote: Given that most of this whole forum is about gw games and products, they obviously are. People who are happily enjoying their hobby just don't seem to make as much noise about it as those who have taken an issue with gw. I happily still buy from them.
.
The focus of the forum is still primarily GW games, but it's also important to note that the other sections of the forum have expanded substantially since I joined here.
As a chap said in a post above, the hobby landscape has definitely changed; whereas GW used to be pretty much the only 800lb gorilla in the sci-fi/fantasy room, it's now a 600lb gorilla with a bunch of 150lb chimpanzees jumping about
Dakka has definitely become a useful hub if you want to talk about a whole variety of games, and certainly it's mega useful to me as I can talk about all of them in one place. Contrast with somewhere like Warseer forum which I believe only has GW sections, and reputedly has had loss of traffic while places like Dakka and Beasts of War have grown.
Mymearan wrote: I'm pretty sure everyone understands that less people playing GW games is bad for people who enjoy playing GW games... But what are we supposed to do about it? I continue buying, playing, and introducing new people to the hobby, because I enjoy it and want other people to discover and enjoy it as well. If less people do so, that's bad for me and my gaming group in the long run, but if I stopped buying GW I would only accelerate that process, which is even worse.
The answer is simple but not one people like to hear: Stop buying their products. GW has, proudly it seems, no marketing department and very little in the way of community outreach. Hitting them in the wallet is the only way they're going to change, either under their own power, or by someone else buying their IP while it's still valuable. Gradually losing customers revenue is actually more disastrous to the future of WHFB and 40K than a sudden, shocking precipitous drop.
JamesY wrote: Given that most of this whole forum is about gw games and products, they obviously are. People who are happily enjoying their hobby just don't seem to make as much noise about it as those who have taken an issue with gw. I happily still buy from them.
.
The focus of the forum is still primarily GW games, but it's also important to note that the other sections of the forum have expanded substantially since I joined here.
As a chap said in a post above, the hobby landscape has definitely changed; whereas GW used to be pretty much the only 800lb gorilla in the sci-fi/fantasy room, it's now a 600lb gorilla with a bunch of 150lb chimpanzees jumping about
Dakka has definitely become a useful hub if you want to talk about a whole variety of games, and certainly it's mega useful to me as I can talk about all of them in one place. Contrast with somewhere like Warseer forum which I believe only has GW sections, and reputedly has had loss of traffic while places like Dakka and Beasts of War have grown.
JamesY has a point, though. People who defend GW simply because they enjoy GW games tend to be less vocal than those who are unhappy.
For instance, I didn't do my usual thing and hop on and post, because I no tv with wife tonight... I have been playing 40k from 5:30pm til just now, just about 3am Finished 2 games plus pizza in 9 hours or so, won one, lost one, and I had a blast. Ironically, I won with my Blood Angels (vs Necron!! But a wonky Necron list) and lost with my Eldar, but my Eldar are now quite dated, and my Skitarii partner on Game #1 just stomped me bad. Those Skitarii are scary tough, I tell you; in a couple of weeks, he should have some of his Cult models painted, and I'll try to give him a serious match with new codex vanilla marines. At least the first game was pretty quick, so we played a bit of Titanfall while the others finished their first game of the night. I used to be so good at it; I can't believe how terrible I am now.
But anyways, I'm sure you guys don't want to hear about my actual 40k game or TF.
What some other peeps don't seem to get is that there are hobbyists/gamers that like GW and like 40k; and even if they aren't *rich*, they are less price sensitive, and would rather buy what they want than to evaluate metrics of value. Some hobbyists and gamers would rather have better models, and are willing to pay progressively higher prices for better models. Is there a tipping point, as jah-joshua put it? Who knows, obviously, at some point, but I don't know if it will be reached in my lifetime. I wouldn't pay $100 (inflation-adjusted) for one space marine to take an extreme example.
At the moment, sure, 40k is "expensive" who you evaluate it as plastic soldiers that cost pennies to make. But actually, relative to practically everything else that I spend money on for fun, and I do mean that quite literally, 40k is probably the cheapest thing that I spend a significant amount of time doing -- both per hour, and aggregate. The two sports I engage in, Ski (which I love) and golf (which I hate) are really pricey a set of golf great clubs costs more than a whole 40k army (well, ONE great golf club can cost more than a 40k army...), and green fees, what you pay to play one game, are as much as a box of models. A night at the movies with the wife, plus popcorn and 2 drinks, costs as much as a box of models. A super cheap bottle of wine is as expensive as an upgrade sprue; a good bottle of wine will buy you an Imperial Knight. A single video game with a season pass costs more than a Wraithknight. Take the wife out for a pub meal, toss in a couple of drinks, and you have enough to buy a box of Centurions. Never mind a romantic restaurant.
I'm not talking about yachts and Ferrarris, man. Just everyday things that "most" normal, employed people engage in for recreation. Relative to any of those activities, only my gaming mileage would make models worthwhile -- nevermind that I spend anywhere from 5-50 hours on modelling and hobby, and that gives me great pleasure. On top of that, you get to keep the model afterwards. I mean, how cool is that -- you play a video game, ski a hill, eat a meal, watch a movie... yeah, cool, you accumulate great memories, but that's all you get to keep. 40k, you get to amass a collection of painted toy soldiers.
Whether I buy Dreamforge, Privateer Press, Games Workshop, Mantic... the price difference *relative to anything else I'm likely to spend money on for entertainment* is a phenomenal value.
So if I like 'em, why not buy GW models? Also, I have the expectation that when a product is improved, the upgraded version costs more than the predecessor. Of course, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. For those who don't find GW games fun, don't find the products improved, and are fatigued or dislike their fluff/books, or find their products unaffordable, I would suggest you spend some time playing a game that makes you happy
On the other hand, try to put on the other shoe. Just because the hobby landscape may have changed, doesn't mean that every hobbyist has changed with it. Perhaps, there is a demographic that appreciates a different focus in a game than you. For example, even being a gamer, preferring a company that prioritizes models over games; or really liking the intricacies of the heraldry, chapter markings, and iconography of the Imperium; or appreciating the nearly-infinite possibilities for building space marines. Just because GW isn't doing what you want it to do, and just because it's making less money, doesn't necessarily mean that what they are doing appeals to nobody, nor does it mean that it appeals to so few people that they won't be able to stay in business.
And anyways, what do I care about that? I have zero control over or foresight into what happens to GW 5, 10, 15 years from now, so I choose to enjoy the game and models they put out today.
Mymearan wrote: I'm pretty sure everyone understands that less people playing GW games is bad for people who enjoy playing GW games... But what are we supposed to do about it? I continue buying, playing, and introducing new people to the hobby, because I enjoy it and want other people to discover and enjoy it as well. If less people do so, that's bad for me and my gaming group in the long run, but if I stopped buying GW I would only accelerate that process, which is even worse.
The answer is simple but not one people like to hear: Stop buying their products. GW has, proudly it seems, no marketing department and very little in the way of community outreach. Hitting them in the wallet is the only way they're going to change, either under their own power, or by someone else buying their IP while it's still valuable. Gradually losing customers revenue is actually more disastrous to the future of WHFB and 40K than a sudden, shocking precipitous drop.
I don't want to stop buying their products, because I and my gaming group enjoy assembling, painting and playing with them. And if we didn't do that, the 40k community in our little town (which is currently very strong) would die out long before GW reversed course, if they ever did. So the answer for us is very simple as well: keep buying and playing with GW minis, and keep helping other people discovering and enjoying the hobby as well. Obviously that does not preclude us also playing other things, and we also have a strong Xwing and Necromunda community (the latter spearheaded by myself), a couple of people playing WMH (although no one else is really interested in that system), and me and a couple of other guys trying more fringe systems like Deadzone. Nothing really compares with 40k though in terms of popularity.
relative to practically everything else that I spend money on for fun, and I do mean that quite literally, 40k is probably the cheapest thing that I spend a significant amount of time doing -- both per hour, and aggregate. .
this ^^
= most sensible thing on this thread
this is so true, also I have been playing 40k off and on for 25 years (I am the only person still going who can remember the opening of the GW store in my town, which is having it's 25 year anniversary this month) and when I started 12 terminators (metal) were £18.00 and they went up to £24.00 within a year. (btw People malingered back then, more than they do now). Compare that price of £18.00 to today when 10 terminators are £56.00. This seems a huge issue until you factor in that house prices then were average (£59,000 in 1990 compared to £188,000 now) so pounds are (on that primitive basis) worth 3.18 times less so £18.00 is £57.00 in today's money.
Or.
£56.00 (now) vs £57.00 (then)
Now you might say " ahh but they are 10 models and you are comparing them to 12" but I can tell you the quality has definitely gone up much more than the added issue of two minis I am deducting over quality. And I still have them (from 25 years ago) I can show you a picture. They are not as good.
It is a well trodden path that comparing GW to non-wargaming products is fallacious. (And I think houses is a first!)
Don't compare prices now to prices then, compare prices now to prices now. There's plenty of people producing HIPs kits that are so much cheaper for an equivalent product it should embarrass GW as the market incumbent.
There's no point in arguing value, as that's subjective, neither is there any point in comparing "quality" as that's a moving target (realistically 'quality' should only refer to the % of kits that have no defects, but I suspect you're using it to describe the detail on the minis - something that's again subjective, many people find the amount of greeble on GW's minis excessive - or the amount of pieces, and , again, one man's options is another man's unnecessary junk.)
The inescapable reality is GWhave to charge a significant amount for their minis because they have a massive overhead which is nothing to do with the design or production of minis to cover. Due to continued mismanagement they seem to have reached a stage where they're producing product that fewer people want to buy, at a price fewer people are willing to pay, but thanks to the flawed decision from some years back to try and control their product beyond what most companies would consider sensible, they're in a position which is near impossible to reverse.
The fact is HIPs production has fallen in price, more so for GW than anyone else in the industry because they own their own kit and don't have to contract production out, compared to other companies which do. Set this against a background of negative inflation and a 6 year low for the price of crude (and consequently all petrochemical derivative, such as plastic) and yet prices still go up?
Say what you like about where the prices are, they're substantially above where they could, even should, be.
relative to practically everything else that I spend money on for fun, and I do mean that quite literally, 40k is probably the cheapest thing that I spend a significant amount of time doing -- both per hour, and aggregate. .
this ^^
= most sensible thing on this thread
this is so true, also I have been playing 40k off and on for 25 years (I am the only person still going who can remember the opening of the GW store in my town, which is having it's 25 year anniversary this month) and when I started 12 terminators (metal) were £18.00 and they went up to £24.00 within a year. (btw People malingered back then, more than they do now). Compare that price of £18.00 to today when 10 terminators are £56.00. This seems a huge issue until you factor in that house prices then were average (£59,000 in 1990 compared to £188,000 now) so pounds are (on that primitive basis) worth 3.18 times less so £18.00 is £57.00 in today's money.
Or.
£56.00 (now) vs £57.00 (then)
Now you might say " ahh but they are 10 models and you are comparing them to 12" but I can tell you the quality has definitely gone up much more than the added issue of two minis I am deducting over quality. And I still have them (from 25 years ago) I can show you a picture. They are not as good.
This kind of perspective gets overlooked too often. Comparative value of currency does explain a lot of it.
Of course, wages have not increased in a similar fashion, at least not here in the states. Someone making $80,000 a year now is making a lot less compared to 1990s dollars. The people with expensive houses work a lot harder to keep them.
I do wonder if it makes sense for GW to set prices relative to the value of currency or the value of people's real wages. I am sure shareholder perspectives matter here, but it would seem to me it's important to remain affordable for a larger number of people.
That said, I don't buy models from GW anymore, and have seen a lot of situations where people can't play the game b/c they don't have the cash. It's very different now than it was then.
I am not refusing to buy GW models on moral grounds or anything, I've pickedup a few lotr models recently for d&d purposes but no, I don't buy GW any more. Why? Because I'm one of these people:
Talys wrote: and are willing to pay progressively higher prices for better models
I'm happy to pay high prices for excellent models, but walking into a GW store and looking through the range these days it just can't excite me any more. The new releases seem to just fall into one of several categories for me. The large, two frame plastic models just look like toys, the crap like the wrathmongers are just poorly thought out concepts to begin with and the decent stuff like the new mechanium character is not bad, but nothing special and I am not paying what they are asking for it. The fluff was great, but things keep changing, diluting the setting and dumbing it down in my opinion, killing my enthusiasm.
The worst of it though was the space wolf codex. I was building a small force at the time, then saw MURDERFANG, Santa Claus sled and yet another silly looking marine flier that seemed to fill no role that the thunderhawk had always filled. I packed my space wolves away during that release and can't even tell you where they are now.
So yes, I am perfectly happy to pay a premium for good models, but GW aren't making good models imo so I don't buy from them.
They're not helping this with certain releases with bits like this on models.
Spoiler:
Pop out missiles!
Personally I think this is equally as bad.
Spoiler:
The rocket seems far too 'totally cool action toys!' compared to say... the missile launcher from this set.
Spoiler:
I like that post so much better for a model, it's not static, but it doesn't feel like they are trying to shoehorn it into an action scene for the 12 year old audience.
I feel that its good to be aware of what GW is doing to the hobby, and I'm no apologist. Far from it, I'm a pretty typical GW burn out.
That said, there's a faint whiff of pointless awareness raising here. Sure, it's good to realize that GW's policies hurt others, and might affect you. so what?
We can call for boycotts all we want, but we've seen what' GW's response has been to dwindling sales: doubling down on their worst tendencies. Not only do I doubt the pwoer of a boycott to correct the problem, but I think it might exacerbate it.
In other words, buy what you want. I don't buy from GW, but I rarely did, even in my 40k prime. If somebody else wants to, good on them.
jonolikespie wrote: I am not refusing to buy GW models on moral grounds or anything, I've pickedup a few lotr models recently for d&d purposes but no, I don't buy GW any more. Why? Because I'm one of these people:
Talys wrote: and are willing to pay progressively higher prices for better models
I'm happy to pay high prices for excellent models, but walking into a GW store and looking through the range these days it just can't excite me any more. The new releases seem to just fall into one of several categories for me. The large, two frame plastic models just look like toys, the crap like the wrathmongers are just poorly thought out concepts to begin with and the decent stuff like the new mechanium character is not bad, but nothing special and I am not paying what they are asking for it. The fluff was great, but things keep changing, diluting the setting and dumbing it down in my opinion, killing my enthusiasm.
The worst of it though was the space wolf codex. I was building a small force at the time, then saw MURDERFANG, Santa Claus sled and yet another silly looking marine flier that seemed to fill no role that the thunderhawk had always filled. I packed my space wolves away during that release and can't even tell you where they are now.
So yes, I am perfectly happy to pay a premium for good models, but GW aren't making good models imo so I don't buy from them.
The Admech stuff, and especially the Skitarii, are some of the best models they've ever made imo. Nothing toy-like about them. Personally the only companies I see putting out a large variety of stuff at the same consistent level of quality as GW/FW are Mierce and Prodos (Warzone). Infinity and Kingdom Death stuff is also technically very nice but I dislike their aesthetic.
Except for the obvious toy-like door mechanism on the dunecrawler as seen in Grimtuff's post. And the robots literally look like toys, just missing the spring-loaded missile fist.
I especially hate the sun shark, to me it's one of the worst models that GW has ever produced and also serves as a shining example of how GWjust doesn't get it. Damn near every single Tau player wanted plastic barracudas, and I personally would have bought a trio of them at release without really thinking about it. Hell, a lot of us probably expected it after the valkyrie's successful transition into plastic and the flyer wave that followed shortly after. And we got...that. I'd be very surprised if GW made enough money off that kit just to pay for the moulds, let alone made a profit on it, as its undesirable in just about every way. Ugly model, awful rules, and if I'm not mistaken in the case with the sun shark and it's regenerating bombs the rules literally don't work as written.
Sidstyler wrote: Except for the obvious toy-like door mechanism on the dunecrawler as seen in Grimtuff's post. And the robots literally look like toys, just missing the spring-loaded missile fist.
Ooooh... Shogun Warriors! (Anyone else remember those toys?)
Sidstyler wrote: Except for the obvious toy-like door mechanism on the dunecrawler as seen in Grimtuff's post. And the robots literally look like toys, just missing the spring-loaded missile fist.
Yeah, as well as the retro robots that look literally like toys as well. Plus the Rangers are nearly mono-pose torsos with attachable body parts, as opposed to highly-articulated kits like Space a marines or Dark Eldar. There are a couple of things that I really like about the AM release (big servitude, Magos guy, look of the Rangers themselves "), but I would rank the quality of that release substantially below many others. IMO, the re-release of Dark Eldar a few years back was the best release GW has ever had. And it didn't take two codexes to do it either!
Not as a big difference as I thought there would be...but....still...Gw is not quite the company they once were.
I'll put that no number up to 46 btw
I am a few years younger than either of those but I am in the did buy but don't any more category.
I think I was misunderstood.....I was actually counting the people that said yes I still but vs no I don't buy. Not age.
Looking back..I see the confusion. 29 people in this thread said yes I'll still buy from gw. 46 have said no..I wont anymore.
If this is represetational of the community as a whole..then GW needs to change thier businees practices.
Not as a big difference as I thought there would be...but....still...Gw is not quite the company they once were.
I'll put that no number up to 46 btw
I am a few years younger than either of those but I am in the did buy but don't any more category.
I think I was misunderstood.....I was actually counting the people that said yes I still but vs no I don't buy. Not age.
Looking back..I see the confusion. 29 people in this thread said yes I'll still buy from gw. 46 have said no..I wont anymore.
If this is represetational of the community as a whole..then GW needs to change thier businees practices.
Ah...that makes much more sense.
I wonder how indicative this is of the consumer base as a whole.
Not as a big difference as I thought there would be...but....still...Gw is not quite the company they once were.
I'll put that no number up to 46 btw
I am a few years younger than either of those but I am in the did buy but don't any more category.
I think I was misunderstood.....I was actually counting the people that said yes I still but vs no I don't buy. Not age.
Looking back..I see the confusion. 29 people in this thread said yes I'll still buy from gw. 46 have said no..I wont anymore.
If this is represetational of the community as a whole..then GW needs to change thier businees practices.
Ah...that makes much more sense.
I wonder how indicative this is of the consumer base as a whole.
Not at all, because that would require a random sample of all GWs consumer base, not a few self-selected individuals who frequent a forum dedicated to gaming.
Ha! I knew there'd be a comment of this sort as soon as I read MWH's comment.
No doubt if a study conducted with a truly random sample was carried out, with similar results, some would dismiss it as a fluke and that in "reality" people were still buying just like they always did.
Something like "for the true believer no proof is good enough" I guess.
I bought some GW the other day for the first time in a few years. I got the trukk with 10 ork boys for £26 from Dark Sphere and got some Kromlech bare chests and punk heads for the orks. Bid just seen Mad Max and wanted to make a Gorkamorka gang with modern figures.
Azreal13 wrote: Ha! I knew there'd be a comment of this sort as soon as I read MWH's comment.
No doubt if a study conducted with a truly random sample was carried out, with similar results, some would dismiss it as a fluke and that in "reality" people were still buying just like they always did.
Something like "for the true believer no proof is good enough" I guess.
I certainly wouldn't. I work as a statistician and thus am prone to comment on these things... I am personally a "true believer" in cold, hard evidence.
Azreal13 wrote: It is a well trodden path that comparing GW to non-wargaming products is fallacious. (And I think houses is a first!)
Don't compare prices now to prices then, compare prices now to prices .
House prices (and gold prices) are the best way to do valuations of currency ... some very rich people I know only use it... from a certain perspective you might say "the average house price" never alters in value (and neither does gold, but recently gold has become a cash shelter so has been over valued a lot) ... houses do not change..instead currency devalues.
Inflation index calulations done on theortical shopping lists other than this are an artifact to an economists political end.
I doubt inflation is going to account for things like the Dire Avengers box being cut in hal and sold at the same price (not a single incident either, mind you).
Of course, a separate issue is how many of the models you need to play a normal-sized game. Points dilution has been a near constant to the point where a 1500pt army in 3rd edition runs about half the size of a 1500pt army in 7th, and I would argue that the experience has not been improved by shoving more into the game.
I've always been curious about points inflation complaints (not saying you are complaining, but many are). Why not play games with the same model count as you did in, say, 3rd ed, regardless of how many points they are now? Why keep playing 1850 games instead of going down to 1500, 1250 or whatever? I just can't see why it is a problem unless you play in tournaments a lot.
I think the game has become out-of-whack to work optimally at the levels that a 3rd edition 1500pt army (say 850 or so) would work at. Things like unit restrictions (i.e. the old "0-1" or even the single CAD) are now a thing of the past. Now, obviously you can put restrictions on things, but I feel this generally devolves into disagreements about what should and should not be allowed...it really seems easier to get people to agree to play an older edition.
It really returns to the difficulty of playing in a PUG environment. Beyond that, I don't know what the benefits or points dilution are. Is the enjoyment of the game increased by purchasing and using all of these extra units for large-size skirmish game? (Genuine question, not being rhetorical)
Polonius wrote: I feel that its good to be aware of what GW is doing to the hobby, and I'm no apologist. Far from it, I'm a pretty typical GW burn out.
That said, there's a faint whiff of pointless awareness raising here. Sure, it's good to realize that GW's policies hurt others, and might affect you. so what?
As someone in a similar mental place, why worry? It really doesn't affect me one way or another. I own a lifetime worth of GW product that I can play with.
I think the real question is whether I start to sell off any portion of the pile.
Polonius wrote: I feel that its good to be aware of what GW is doing to the hobby, and I'm no apologist. Far from it, I'm a pretty typical GW burn out.
That said, there's a faint whiff of pointless awareness raising here. Sure, it's good to realize that GW's policies hurt others, and might affect you. so what?
As someone in a similar mental place, why worry? It really doesn't affect me one way or another. I own a lifetime worth of GW product that I can play with.
I think the real question is whether I start to sell off any portion of the pile.
Oh, I'm not worried. I'm just seeing some exhorations of moral outrage, and terms like "good of the community" tossed around, and I hope nobody feels bad about enjoying their hobby purchases, no matter how ill advised or over costed.
And I cleared out the bulk of my unpainted GW stuff in the last few years, and even a lot of painted stuff. I kept my IG, and whatever unpainted Praetorians I have, if only because they were a PITA to collect and I don't want to play the games necessary to sell them for a good price. With them came some Grey Knights, that were allies back in 3rd, a draigowing in 5th, and are now just a pile of lead. I also have some Preheresy Emp. Children that I'm painting up as an exercise, but I doubt I'll ever play with it.
I still buy HH stuff and some 40k space marine crap. I mostly play Warmachine, X-wing and Bolt Action these days but I'll still collect Space Marine stuff. I don't know, I guess I'm a sucker for the Emperor's finest.
Polonius wrote: I feel that its good to be aware of what GW is doing to the hobby, and I'm no apologist. Far from it, I'm a pretty typical GW burn out.
That said, there's a faint whiff of pointless awareness raising here. Sure, it's good to realize that GW's policies hurt others, and might affect you. so what?
As someone in a similar mental place, why worry? It really doesn't affect me one way or another. I own a lifetime worth of GW product that I can play with.
I think the real question is whether I start to sell off any portion of the pile.
Do you play? (genuine question)
If so, how?
At the store?
In someone's house with a group of friends? (then it probably won't affect you.)
If you rely on a store community and/or pick up games, it really will affect you, regardless of how many models you have. When you have no one to play with the models won't be worth much.
If you're a hobbyist and just by to paint, convert, whatever? Your supply is finite and if you ever want anything, it'll have to be from E-bay. And there won't be anything new. So, if you love GW minis, this will affect you eventually. If you just move on to other companies' stuff, then it probably won't bother you much.
Worst case scenario, granted, but that's the gist of the argument being presented.
I don't purchase anything that comes in PDF form. This year I bought enough to run formations with my Eldar and Necrons (though I recognize the cash grab element here, I enjoy the difference in army construction). Last year I spent $0 on GW, and picked up some recast stuff. When I buy from GW it feels like a pop on the chin - when I buy from Hawk it feels like a high five.
And of course, I never buy direct (unless required). 20% off is necessary to make this hobby make sense.
Azreal13 wrote: It is a well trodden path that comparing GW to non-wargaming products is fallacious. (And I think houses is a first!)
Don't compare prices now to prices then, compare prices now to prices now. There's plenty of people producing HIPs kits that are so much cheaper for an equivalent product it should embarrass GW as the market incumbent.
You are assuming that all plastic models are equivalent to each other in desirability to the customer. That's like saying every movie is equally desirable to the person watching the movie. To give an analogy, if I thought Avengers: Age of Ultron for $20 at an IMAX theatre and $10 for popcorn and drink was too expensive, my alternative would not be to go watch Insidious for $5 less. It would be to do something different altogether. Miniatures and models are not commodities, no matter how much you want them to be. To me, tacticals, ASM, kabalites, and eisenkern are different, not an equivalent commodity where if one is too expensive I'll be just as happy if I buy the other.
Does it make sense that 10 kabalites cost about half the price of 5 assault marines? Who knows, but what do I care? if what I really want is 5 assault marines, what the heck am I going to do with 20 eisenkern or 10 kabalites?
Also, I think that comparing the cost of hobby to the cost of other entertainment is perfectly legitimate. Because instead of building models, I could be doing something else. But if between all my entertainment options, hobby is by far the cheapest, GW or otherwise, then suddenly GW isn't expensive.
Say what you like about where the prices are, they're substantially above where they could, even should, be.
The right price for a product is the price that generates the highest gross profit for the company and brings the highest return to its stakeholders. Depending on a specific company's needs, it could be short, medium, or long term profits. Do you disagree with this fundamental principle of capitalism?
I'm not saying that Games Workshop is doing a good or poor job of this. I am saying that it's not GW's job to make a product affordable for any particular demographic, any more than it is for Apple to make cheap iPhones. A gaming (or other) company's job is not to be a force of good, or to make entertainment accessible to all. They make widgets and sell them for profit, no different than any other company.
I think there are two types of people in the "no" camp. There are those who genuinely don't like GW products, whether because of fatigue, dislike of the company, or whatever. They should find another game/hobby/activity.
Then, there are those who actually like GW products, but can't afford them, or think they're too expensive, or just don't like the company. They think that somehow, if gamers and hobbyists would just unite in solidarity and boycott GW, GW would understand the error of its ways, and write a game and release it at a price and cadence more to their liking. I think this is a total waste of time, and if you're depriving yourself of happiness to try to get a 30+ year company to change tracks on what it's done for 30+ years, the person you're hurting most is yourself.
On occasion, boycotts do work. But they are against companies that do horribly offensive things to a plurality of people, like being cruel to animals, exploit child labour, devastate the environment, or represent bigoted or hateful positions. Boycotts never work against companies that just produce products that are too expensive, and they never work against companies that just make products that a demographic doesn't like -- though the market will work fine to reward or punish the company that caters to too small a niche. For example, an effort to boycott Cartier because their watches are too expensive would be ignored by anyone who could actually afford and wanted a Cartier.
The cold hard truth today is that GW caters to a gamer/hobbyist demographic by its choice. I might sound like an ass for saying it, but if you can't afford GW product or can afford it but don't see the value in it, GW has chosen to exclude you as a customer. I mean, seriously, someone who is pricing the product said, "the customers we want will pay no less than $4 per model, and we don't want them if they won't pay that". GW also seemingly has no interest in appealing to customers who don't want to build large model collections who are very price conscious. I think they believe catering to the gamer who just wants to buy 30 models and play a game as a waste of time. Not that they wouldn't be happy to have that customer, just that they wouldn't do anything in particular to make them happy.
If GW excludes you because you're not in their target niche (what you want to play, how you want to hobby, how much you earn, whatever), you shouldn't give them your hard-earned cash. But trying to convince someone who is in their target audience that buying GW is a bad idea is as pointless as trying to convince GW to lower their prices. The best you can do is to vote with your wallet, and at some point, if GW wants to court you as a customer, you'll know about it. Of course, you might just give them the middle finger at that point!
Ok, I was going to read back and see what every one else has said but after a page of arguing I got bored.
To answer the original question, yes. I do buy GW minis but very rarely direct from GW themselves. I usually only buy from discount websites that offer around 25% off, which make the prices fairly reasonable.
MWHistorian wrote: If you're a hobbyist and just by to paint, convert, whatever? Your supply is finite and if you ever want anything, it'll have to be from E-bay. And there won't be anything new. So, if you love GW minis, this will affect you eventually. If you just move on to other companies' stuff, then it probably won't bother you much. Worst case scenario, granted, but that's the gist of the argument being presented.
I would have to definitely reconsider 40k as a primary hobby interest if GW stopped making new minis (or went out of business). Somehow, as much as I know some people would like to see this happen, I don't see this on the horizon
On the other hand, if GW ever went out of business, I'd be sorely torn between keeping and selling my unpainted collection on E-Bay at the ridiculous prices BNIB would then demand. Although I love hobby, there ARE other things I love to do too, and as much a value as I place on plastic kits, it's not infinite
One thing is for sure, though. If GW were to go out of business, none of the companies who produce miniatures would interest me enough to make it a primary hobby. Unless someone stepped up to the plate in creating a large model-count game, and rapidly released models I liked, I would probably eventually spend my time on something else (other than hobby/wargaming).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Orrus wrote: I do buy GW minis but very rarely direct from GW themselves. I usually only buy from discount websites that offer around 25% off, which make the prices fairly reasonable.
Did anyone else see the GW web store survey?
Indeed, me too. Yes, the web survey has been there for a long time.
JohnHwangDD wrote: As someone in a similar mental place, why worry? It really doesn't affect me one way or another. I own a lifetime worth of GW product that I can play with.
I think the real question is whether I start to sell off any portion of the pile.
Oh, I'm not worried. I'm just seeing some exhorations of moral outrage, and terms like "good of the community" tossed around, and I hope nobody feels bad about enjoying their hobby purchases, no matter how ill advised or over costed.
And I cleared out the bulk of my unpainted GW stuff in the last few years, and even a lot of painted stuff. I kept my IG, and whatever unpainted Praetorians I have, if only because they were a PITA to collect and I don't want to play the games necessary to sell them for a good price. With them came some Grey Knights, that were allies back in 3rd, a draigowing in 5th, and are now just a pile of lead. I also have some Preheresy Emp. Children that I'm painting up as an exercise, but I doubt I'll ever play with it.
OK, got it. Yeah, that stuff seems a bit childish and immature to me. But if they feel better after venting a bit, eh.
Congrats, I think that's really healthy. I'm definitely keeping most of the metal, conversions and painted, for the same reasons as you - things that would be very hard to replace, things that have labor investment are things I want to keep. Unbuilt? Yeah, I could see it go and not miss it. I still like the mix of Imperial allies, but you're right that some of them are just things that won't likely hit the table in a long time.
____
MWHistorian wrote:
JohnHwangDD wrote: As someone in a similar mental place, why worry? It really doesn't affect me one way or another. I own a lifetime worth of GW product that I can play with.
Do you play? (genuine question)
If so, how?
At the store?
In someone's house with a group of friends? (then it probably won't affect you.)
If you rely on a store community and/or pick up games, it really will affect you, regardless of how many models you have. When you have no one to play with the models won't be worth much.
If you're a hobbyist and just by to paint, convert, whatever? Your supply is finite and if you ever want anything, it'll have to be from E-bay. And there won't be anything new. So, if you love GW minis, this will affect you eventually. If you just move on to other companies' stuff, then it probably won't bother you much.
Worst case scenario, granted, but that's the gist of the argument being presented.
I occasionally play 40k with friends at their garages (California doesn't have basements).
The rest of your comment is overblown. People still play older games, and buying cheap from eBay is smart. GW won't collapse - they're too big. Worst case, they get bought out by Hasbro and come back like Warzone.
Haven't bought from GW in well over a year, haven't bought 40k stuff in several.
Probably won't ever buy from GW itself again, but rather eBay and nothing else at this point, plus other companies just do the same kinda stuff for a lower price or with higher quality.
For example if I want an Orc army I can just buy Kings of War stuff for a noticeably lower price, and if I want giant monsters then I can go to Mierce Miniatures for more expensive, but also far higher quality monsters.
Mymearan wrote: I've always been curious about points inflation complaints (not saying you are complaining, but many are). Why not play games with the same model count as you did in, say, 3rd ed, regardless of how many points they are now? Why keep playing 1850 games instead of going down to 1500, 1250 or whatever? I just can't see why it is a problem unless you play in tournaments a lot.
The problem isn't just the number of models (though more models bogs down the game, and that IS a problem). In current editions of the game, you have far fewer choices for upgrades and equipment for each model. Time was, every sergeant and captain could pick anything they could carry from the armoury, and every squad and vehicle had an assortment of specialized upgrades (grenades, knives, dozer blades, spotlights, etc.). Most of these upgrades now come standard at no cost, or aspects of the game that made them useful have been cut. This removes strategic decision making and reduces the impact of any particular unit. There are far fewer tactical interactions, like when the 3rd Ed IG upgraded infantry units could rearrange themselves in close combat to create layers, slowing the enemy's advance.
Even when you go to a lower point limit, the game is less about properly using equipment choices and more about bringing more models. Especially in the last couple editions, they replaced tactical interactions with more random tables which slow down the game further.
to OP:
I went from buying 400$ a month, to 50-89$ a month. The models are a lot better then they used to be for sure, but I just don not see them at a good value
I still buy GW models.... second hand, on eBay, etc. I don't buy direct from GW, and I buy other stuff from my FLGS.
A product this expensive is still desirable to me, but unless you feel the requirement to support your LGS by accepting to pay full price for it, there's no reason to pay full price unless you absolutely, positively HAVE to have the 'new toy' the second it comes out. Even then, there are plenty of discount shops to choose from - even though GW has taken incredible steps to try to limit those, as well.
I hadn't purchased anything from GW for quite a while, happy to trawl for Ebay stuff
I did buy a couple Eldar flyers when the new Codex hit as I want to try out the formation and ebay prices tend to spike around Codex dates,
didn't buy it from the local GW store as online stores are way cheaper.
Nobody should feel bad for buying or not buying GW products, under the 'geek shall not harm geek' rule, yes some of the prices are a bit steep but if
people want to pay that let them, although there is no harm in pointing out cheaper alternates or even more expensive but better toys to them, it is a hobby,
not the GW hobby (despite what the High Lords of Nottingham may say)
Not as a big difference as I thought there would be...but....still...Gw is not quite the company they once were.
I'll put that no number up to 46 btw
I am a few years younger than either of those but I am in the did buy but don't any more category.
I think I was misunderstood.....I was actually counting the people that said yes I still but vs no I don't buy. Not age.
Looking back..I see the confusion. 29 people in this thread said yes I'll still buy from gw. 46 have said no..I wont anymore.
If this is represetational of the community as a whole..then GW needs to change thier businees practices.
Ah...that makes much more sense.
I wonder how indicative this is of the consumer base as a whole.
Not at all, because that would require a random sample of all GWs consumer base, not a few self-selected individuals who frequent a forum dedicated to gaming.
That random sample of all GW consumers will never happen - way too close to market research.
*EDIT* Any poll on the topic would need to add 'Won't buy new, will buy from eBay' as an option - it would be a popular choice.
I speak up because my experience is that buying GW is buying into a deadend. My group of friends got into the hobby at roughly the same time, and there was a variety of events at the local GW. After maybe 2 years, the local GW got downsized due to the infamous 1-employee-1-shop policy they enacted. The employee turn-over was almost monthly, and the local events couldn't be run anymore. As the prices went up, two of my friends with lower income couldn't afford new stuff when 6th edition made flyers supremely dominant. They lost interest, so then it was just two of us and no local scene.
I love 40k, and I love the aesthetic and I love many of GW's sculpts. I even like the older editions. I love the Cities of Death expansion, and I love playing Apocalypse. But save your money where you can because GW's business practices are predatory. They have smashed game balance just to sell models. If your local scene is strong: good, play in it. Emperor knows I'm envious. But be careful when you spend your money.
Nintendo seem to falter every other generation, but smashes it out 50% of the time.
They just need to make a proper console version of Pokemon and they're laughing forever (how hard is it to make Ocarina meets Pokemon?!).
Either way, Games Workshop.
The prices of fantasy and LOTR/Hobbit seem much more fair than what is charged for 40k. You get a brilliant looking big monster kit for around £30 and units range from £15-£30 (a whole unit of cavalry is less than £20?!).
Unfortunately, I don't play these games, never have as there isn't much of a scene for them here.
But I was an avid 40k player growing up, from second through to fifth edition (mostly 3rd and 4th though - That Necron Codex with limited choices and The Nightbringer was my jam; and IG Traits were great)... But since then, it's not a price creep, it's a price skyrocket.
The same Imperial Guard where you would get 20 in a box is nearly twice the price for just 10 now (without a heavy weapon).
The model quality is very high, and the options included (especially since the GK kits) are fantastic, but the price is just not worth it.
I would love to get some pieces for painting purposes, but cannot justify it at the price GW. I would even consider the game if it was reasonable, but it just isn't.
GW turned me in to a gamer, if it wasn't for them I wouldn't play Warmachine, Malifaux, Bolt Action etc. etc. but they don't value me as a consumer, they don't make financially viable gaming and they don't make quality rules anymore.
Not to mention the fact that so many different TO's interpret the rules in a different way that there is very little consistency, meaning you need to purchase even more products to be competitive.
Sigvatr wrote: The video games industry isn't big enough to have companies "to big too fall". Even Nintendo is on a huge decline right now.
The video games industry is bigger than Hollywood and worth something like 88 billion dollars a year....
True but triple A games are starting to falter for much the same reason the GW has been, not understanding what people want, and becoming ever more risk adverse and as a result just churning out franchises such as 'Brown/Grey Modernish Faceshooter 75' and 'Buggy Jumpy Parkour Stabber Thing 9', combine that which pre-order BS and season passes, charging $X dollars for the game and then trying to flog you the other half of the game as DLC (something GW has embraced with the Codex / Datasheet model) and whilst neither GW or say EA are really a risk some of the seemingly terrible decisions do make you wonder if they like money or not.
Well one difference is that video game companies rely almost completely on market research, to the point of making every AAA game the same stew of identical, safe and in the end very dull least-common-denominator game mechanics (UbiSoft), GW instead does none of that and completely trust their own internal view of how the market works. Neither extreme is really desirable.
Back when I was single, didn't have kids and a mortgage I would just straight up buy an army.... NOW I don't think i Have used cash to buy a model in a long time. Store credit from tournaments seems to be my method of acquiring more models... or trading/buying on here.
The prices are too high for me to justify buying the models vs spending the money to go out with my 2 girls and wife to do family things.
@MWHistorian: if GW goes out of business tomorrow, i would still have enough models to keep me busy painting for the rest of my life...
not that i would like to see that happen, since i am of the opinion that they continue to improve their sculpts year by year...
the thing is, i am not going to worry about the choices that management make, but instead support the good things that i feel the design studio do...
i have no control over the process, so why should i not buy the things that i like???
@tigerstyle (and everyone else): if you are just considering getting some pieces for painting, what is your tipping point???
what is the maximum price you are willing to pay for a mini to paint???
someone brought this up in the price rise thread, i believe, and it is an interesting thought exercise...
for instance, i am more than happy to buy a Studio McVey LE model for painting purposes at £14 (Katya), or a mounted model for £28 (Ruby)...
if the model is appealing, i don't give it a second thought...
the thing is, i am not as excited to paint those models as i am a 40K model, nor am i certain that a painted version is guaranteed to sell like my 40k models do...
so, as Dark Sphere is showing the Ad Mech Tech Priest at £16.50, and i like it much more than any Studio McVey model, the price is well within my comfort zone...
what price is inside your comfort zone, or better yet, what is the max price of your comfort zone for a model just to paint???
the guy asking the question in the other thread said £5, for example...
of course, i love minis so much, that i just buy all three of the models priced out in my example...
jah-joshua wrote: @MWHistorian: if GW goes out of business tomorrow, i would still have enough models to keep me busy painting for the rest of my life...
not that i would like to see that happen, since i am of the opinion that they continue to improve their sculpts year by year...
the thing is, i am not going to worry about the choices that management make, but instead support the good things that i feel the design studio do...
i have no control over the process, so why should i not buy the things that i like???
Not saying that you have to go out and try to change GW.
I'm just saying that you should at least understand why some people are upset by GW's business practices. "It doesn't affect me so there's no problem" is short sighted and blind to the majority of peoples' situations. When some people criticize GW, it's because they want it to get better so it'll be around a long time. As it is, most people don't have an infinite stockpile of models and so GW going out of business would ruin their fun. This is a valid concern and shouldn't be waved away with "not my problem, bro."
At this point, and under the current management, I do not think that GWis likely to recover.
Though I think that the stock dropping is something that Kirby will notice - I am pretty sure that he will be more upset by the reduced value of his stock than he will be at the state of his company that it reflects.
The best that can be hoped for is that Kirby is ousted, and somebody that understands the value of market research and advertising takes his place.
When your management team is singled out by financial news services as examples of how not to do things... it is a sign that there is a problem.
jah-joshua wrote: @MWHistorian: if GW goes out of business tomorrow, i would still have enough models to keep me busy painting for the rest of my life...
not that i would like to see that happen, since i am of the opinion that they continue to improve their sculpts year by year...
the thing is, i am not going to worry about the choices that management make, but instead support the good things that i feel the design studio do...
i have no control over the process, so why should i not buy the things that i like???
Not saying that you have to go out and try to change GW.
I'm just saying that you should at least understand why some people are upset by GW's business practices. "It doesn't affect me so there's no problem" is short sighted and blind to the majority of peoples' situations. When some people criticize GW, it's because they want it to get better so it'll be around a long time. As it is, most people don't have an infinite stockpile of models and so GW going out of business would ruin their fun. This is a valid concern and shouldn't be waved away with "not my problem, bro."
i have never once told anybody in this thread, or any other thread, that their stance is wrong...
i understand why others would be upset, and that they see a problem with GW's business practices...
what i don't understand, is why i should share their viewpoint, and have a problem with GW's policies if they don't bother me...
i can only speak as an individual, since i am not reponsible for other people's choices and feelings about GW...
my opinion is neither short-sighted, nor blind to the majority of people's situation...
my opinion is personal to my perspective...
if i don't share the majority's situation, i am not going to get behind them and stop buying the models that i like, just so they can feel vindicated in their decision...
that is not to say that i don't sympathize...
i am not waving anything away, so try and get past that idea...
the question in the title states, "Is anyone still buying GW models?", and i have said yes i am...
if people choose to say no, that is their choice, and they are free to make it...
i have never told anyone that they should support GW, only that i still choose to...
i always try to be reasonable, and understanding to everyone on here, but you seem to think i am just being dismissive...
there must be some disconnect here, because you keep pounding away at this point you want me to acknowledge, when i have already stated a few times in this thread that i get why people are upset, but don't share their viewpoint...
how is that wrong, or short-sighted, or blind???
why should i make their concerns my own, when i don't feel the same way???
@tigerstyle (and everyone else): if you are just considering getting some pieces for painting, what is your tipping point???
what is the maximum price you are willing to pay for a mini to paint???
someone brought this up in the price rise thread, i believe, and it is an interesting thought exercise...
for instance, i am more than happy to buy a Studio McVey LE model for painting purposes at £14 (Katya), or a mounted model for £28 (Ruby)...
if the model is appealing, i don't give it a second thought...
the thing is, i am not as excited to paint those models as i am a 40K model, nor am i certain that a painted version is guaranteed to sell like my 40k models do...
so, as Dark Sphere is showing the Ad Mech Tech Priest at £16.50, and i like it much more than any Studio McVey model, the price is well within my comfort zone...
what price is inside your comfort zone, or better yet, what is the max price of your comfort zone for a model just to paint???
the guy asking the question in the other thread said £5, for example...
of course, i love minis so much, that i just buy all three of the models priced out in my example...
cheers
jah
£14 seems okay for a (limited edition) resin model. The problem with GW's pricing (in my opinion) is that they want even more for infantry size miniatures made from plastic where you can see how the draft angle of the mould makes undercuts impossible and forces them to compromise on form/design language for the sake of cheap mass production. On top of that they make everything in house and have improved their process speed/quality/cost and just demand more money with each new sprue. Other companies manage to improve without saddling the consumer with higher prices as the cost for innovation. How ridiculous would it be if your baker increased their prices just because they had to buy a new oven, that type of cost should be calculated into their budget or they get a loan and pay it off over time but they don't just complain to their customers that the new thing is so expensive and prices need to rise because of that.
I wouldn't even mind the price if it actually went into high end engineering and we would get a product where details are not just lost to the process. Kingdom Death manages plastics that, to some degree, are comparable to resin in their detail. It comes with a cost in that there are less parts on a sprue and who knows what else they have to compromise on to get that stuff done but they manage that without having all the competence and short feedback loop of an in house team. So how come that GW can't do that?
So yes GW has nice designs but they lose quality (in general) during the whole process and when the plastic costs nearly as much as their FW stuff (that I think is actually worth the price because the end products has less of a smooth-ish blobyness from the process in their form language) then I can't tolerate that pricing structure, and especially the excuses of "it's so hard and takes so long to do" when they had decades to improve all of it and everybody else manages to do exactly that and even small companies in the same niche release stuff that is technically (not speaking of the design language) better than GW's. It's as if they live in another world.
The only reason they have high prices is because they can and now as they start to sell less stuff they will need to find some sort of equilibrium. I don't know where that will be or how they could adjust their price structure downwards (if they need or decide to do this) with multiple decades of above average price increases. That could only work if another company bought them and restructured their games completely. I don't know how many people who have left GW behind would actually come back if they were actually to reduce their price because they just don't trust the company, its prices, and rules (even if they love the art direction/games/setting).
@Mario: i get where you are coming from...
i happen to disagree that GW models lack detail...
so you would be cool with buying the Studio McVey Katya LE resin for £14, but would not be ok with buying the GW Tech Priest for £16.50 because you think it lacks detail???
fair enough...
everyone has different taste, and should spend their money how they like...
to look at your Kingdom Death example from my perspective, i have to say that i would much rather paint the Blood Angels Tactical Squad than the Kingdom Death plastic Pin-Up set...
most people that i have seen posting about the BATac. Squad have complained that it had too much detail, not a lack of it...
personally, i think they look perfect, and the BA models really make me want to paint them...
from a price standpoint, considering that i think both sets are of equal quality and am only buying the models to paint, the Kingdom Death Pin-Up set is available for $100 and makes 8 models...
the Blood Angels box is available for $34.50 and makes 10 models...
suddenly GW doesn't look like such a bad prospect for a person just buying models to paint...
from a business perspective, where i am selling my painted figures, i know that the GW minis will sell after i paint them, but i am not so sure about the KD minis...
over a decade of experience has shown me that selling non-GW painted models is a much slower process, and brings in less than half as much as a GW model...
personally, i like both sets, and will buy both of them, but can i guarantee you that i will actually paint the Space Marines, while the KD set will just be something in a cool box gathering dust...
JJ it is good for you that you do not mind the pricing or the sculpt quality, but you have to agree that from the annual reports the last few years the GW sales are falling, they compensate by increasing their prices, and every consumer has a breaking point to what they are willing to pay and with every new release the complaints about price seem to increase, I wouldn't mind if GW would go out of business as long as another firm would buy it and invigorate it. But what if not? What if PP buys up the rights and kills it? What if nobody buys it and the GW hobby dies a slow dead?
The most vocal haters are the people that grew up on GW and just want the HHHobby to return to the golden days when there where GW tournaments, the golden demon was not a sales fest and when GW cared.
I understand your points, but a lot of posters get emotional and see comments that don't line up with their viewpoints as an insult (for some).
i have never disputed the facts of the annual reports, Jehan...
that is how GW chooses to run their business...
people have their own choices, right???
they can walk away...
they can buy at a discount...
they can pay retail...
that choice is there for everyone to make...
i don't want to see GW die, so i continue to buy what i like...
i grew up on GW...
i remember the days of $5 blister packs with three minis in them...
i still own my Realms of Chaos books...
i have collected White Dwarf since issue #75...
i won a Golden Demon with an Inquisitor scale model...
i've been through it all...
everyone can have their voice heard...
the problem is when the people on the other side of the argument want me to join their team, at the expense of me giving up what i love to do, which is paint Space Marines...
if everyone is just trying to get me to aknowledge their points and perspective, cool...
i have done that, and i mean it...
i get why people are upset, i just don't share their feelings on the matter...
Jehan-reznor wrote: JJ it is good for you that you do not mind the pricing or the sculpt quality, but you have to agree that from the annual reports the last few years the GW sales are falling, they compensate by increasing their prices, and every consumer has a breaking point to what they are willing to pay and with every new release the complaints about price seem to increase, I wouldn't mind if GW would go out of business as long as another firm would buy it and invigorate it. But what if not? What if PP buys up the rights and kills it? What if nobody buys it and the GW hobby dies a slow dead?
The most vocal haters are the people that grew up on GW and just want the HHHobby to return to the golden days when there where GW tournaments, the golden demon was not a sales fest and when GW cared.
I understand your points, but a lot of posters get emotional and see comments that don't line up with their viewpoints as an insult (for some).
PP could never afford to buy out GW, they're tiny in comparison. Hasbro woul seem most likely, as people have been speculating for so long.
Jehan-reznor wrote: JJ it is good for you that you do not mind the pricing or the sculpt quality, but you have to agree that from the annual reports the last few years the GW sales are falling, they compensate by increasing their prices, and every consumer has a breaking point to what they are willing to pay and with every new release the complaints about price seem to increase, I wouldn't mind if GW would go out of business as long as another firm would buy it and invigorate it. But what if not? What if PP buys up the rights and kills it? What if nobody buys it and the GW hobby dies a slow dead?
The most vocal haters are the people that grew up on GW and just want the HHHobby to return to the golden days when there where GW tournaments, the golden demon was not a sales fest and when GW cared.
I understand your points, but a lot of posters get emotional and see comments that don't line up with their viewpoints as an insult (for some)
.
PP could never afford to buy out GW, they're tiny in comparison. Hasbro woul seem most likely, as people have been speculating for so long.
That depends if GW came into financial straits, they could need money by selling IP, and if you really need money, a shrewd business man could acquire the IP for less than market value.
Jehan-reznor wrote: JJ it is good for you that you do not mind the pricing or the sculpt quality, but you have to agree that from the annual reports the last few years the GW sales are falling, they compensate by increasing their prices, and every consumer has a breaking point to what they are willing to pay and with every new release the complaints about price seem to increase, I wouldn't mind if GW would go out of business as long as another firm would buy it and invigorate it. But what if not? What if PP buys up the rights and kills it? What if nobody buys it and the GW hobby dies a slow dead?
The most vocal haters are the people that grew up on GW and just want the HHHobby to return to the golden days when there where GW tournaments, the golden demon was not a sales fest and when GW cared.
I understand your points, but a lot of posters get emotional and see comments that don't line up with their viewpoints as an insult (for some)
.
PP could never afford to buy out GW, they're tiny in comparison. Hasbro woul seem most likely, as people have been speculating for so long.
That depends if GW came into financial straits, they could need money by selling IP, and if you really need money, a shrewd business man could acquire the IP for less than market value.
Not THAT much less. PP really are tiny. $5 million revenue compared to $200 million for GW, for example.
I am not sure GW are making a loss. They pretty much have one overhead or expense: salaries.
So if they need to balance books they can easily change that overhead. And we all know what that means. Instead they chose to try to grow the business, and not every idea takes hold.
Personally I admire GW they are never going to take a penny of anyones and not re invest 95% of it into someones salary or somw new games products
ConanMan wrote: I am not sure GW are making a loss. They pretty much have one overhead or expense: salaries.
So if they need to balance books they can easily change that overhead. And we all know what that means. Instead they chose to try to grow the business, and not every idea takes hold.
Personally I admire GW they are never going to take a penny of anyones and not re invest 95% of it into someones salary or somw new games products
Well, at their prices they only need to sell one......
ConanMan wrote: Personally I admire GW they are never going to take a penny of anyones and not re invest 95% of it into someones salary or somw new games products
Um.. this is a company that turns around and outright says 'Yeah we have nothing to invest in so we'll just pay our profits out as dividends to our shareholders', while they are losing sales and cutting almost all middle management positions...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Woops, missed this part.
ConanMan wrote: Instead they chose to try to grow the business, and not every idea takes hold.
How does cutting Games Days across the world and replacing them with a single event in the UK grow the business? How does cutting US production grow the business? How does removing all regional HQs and running everything from the UK grow the business?
Azreal13 wrote: It is a well trodden path that comparing GW to non-wargaming products is fallacious. (And I think houses is a first!)
A well-trodden point in that you keep repeating it. For a start, others have pointed out that inflation is a complex phenomenon. You keep repeating that UK inflation is low, but that's primarily due to deflation, lack of demand, and fall in price of clothing and footwear. By no means does this mean that costs have fallen for medium-sized UK companies.
The fact is HIPs production has fallen in price, more so for GW than anyone else in the industry because they own their own kit and don't have to contract production out, compared to other companies which do. Set this against a background of negative inflation and a 6 year low for the price of crude (and consequently all petrochemical derivative, such as plastic) and yet prices still go up?
The actual price of oil is such a small element of the cost of model-making that to quote falling oil prices in this context is desperate. Especially when you keep repeating the same irrelevant information.
In fact, while there was a sharp dip in polymer prices, the raw material for plastics production, around February, they're now higher than the average for the last couple of years. And in any case, the raw material price is a tiny proportion of the production cost.
The bulk of the cost of plastics will be design time, machine time, transport and general overheads. There's no evidence GW are cutting designers' salaries - fairly recent information posted on dakka was the GW are buying more machinery to produce larger models.
Say what you like about where the prices are, they're substantially above where they could, even should, be.
Ay, there's the rub. Prices are above where they could be. But they're not necessarily higher than where they should be. That's an entirely subjective judgement.
If you think prices are too high, don't buy. But don't expect everyone else to share your sense of outrage. These are discretionary items which many people, as posted eloquently above,feel are good products for the money. An £18 box of plastic bits, like the Ork Trukk we shall buy on Wednesday, will take a month or two's weekends to paint up. The purchase price is dwarfed by the time spent painting it or the time using it.
I don't like GW price rises; it bugs me that starter boxes have gone up by double the rate of inflation, and that the new Battleforces are apparently nothing like the bargain of the old. But that requires simply a bit more bartering, a bit more eBaying of unused bits. It's a mild irritation - not a moral outrage.
Azreal13 wrote: It is a well trodden path that comparing GW to non-wargaming products is fallacious. (And I think houses is a first!)
A well-trodden point in that you keep repeating it. For a start, others have pointed out that inflation is a complex phenomenon. You keep repeating that UK inflation is low, but that's primarily due to deflation, lack of demand, and fall in price of clothing and footwear. By no means does this mean that costs have fallen for medium-sized UK companies.
So the correct response to falling inflation because of lower spending in the market place is to raise prices? Good call.
The fact is HIPs production has fallen in price, more so for GW than anyone else in the industry because they own their own kit and don't have to contract production out, compared to other companies which do. Set this against a background of negative inflation and a 6 year low for the price of crude (and consequently all petrochemical derivative, such as plastic) and yet prices still go up?
The actual price of oil is such a small element of the cost of model-making that to quote falling oil prices in this context is desperate. Especially when you keep repeating the same irrelevant information.
In fact, while there was a sharp dip in polymer prices, the raw material for plastics production, around February, they're now higher than the average for the last couple of years. And in any case, the raw material price is a tiny proportion of the production cost.
The bulk of the cost of plastics will be design time, machine time, transport and general overheads. There's no evidence GW are cutting designers' salaries - fairly recent information posted on dakka was the GW are buying more machinery to produce larger models.
We know that the production of the kits accounts for ~25% of the RRP, broadly speaking. (Ie GW pays about that percentage on making stuff of the revenue it takes in.)
The percentage spent went up in the last figures, but largely because the amount spent remained flat but revenue fell. Either way, it doesn't justify a price increase, which is what I was talking about.
Say what you like about where the prices are, they're substantially above where they could, even should, be.
Ay, there's the rub. Prices are above where they could be. But they're not necessarily higher than where they should be. That's an entirely subjective judgement.
If you think prices are too high, don't buy. But don't expect everyone else to share your sense of outrage. These are discretionary items which many people, as posted eloquently above,feel are good products for the money. An £18 box of plastic bits, like the Ork Trukk we shall buy on Wednesday, will take a month or two's weekends to paint up. The purchase price is dwarfed by the time spent painting it or the time using it.
I don't like GW price rises; it bugs me that starter boxes have gone up by double the rate of inflation, and that the new Battleforces are apparently nothing like the bargain of the old. But that requires simply a bit more bartering, a bit more eBaying of unused bits. It's a mild irritation - not a moral outrage.
It tickles me that people think I'm outraged, it must be something in my vocabulary. My argument was, and remains that "it doesn't affect me" =\= "I don't mind."
I don't care if people are enjoying the products or not, I don't care if they're even paying full retail for them, more power to them. What I take issue with is when people say "it doesn't affect me" when it very much does at the micro and macro level, they're just not necessarily understanding the implications of what may happen if the ongoing situation proceeds towards the conclusion that seems most likely at this point.
"I don't care about the price increases" is a perfectly valid, but subjective, stance to take. I may have my own opinion about that view, but I couldn't debate a person's right to hold it, I can, however, very much illustrate ways in which the variety of apparently very poor decisions will absolutely affect everyone involved with GW as a consumer, in small or potentially very significant ways.
I do, I love GW models (except of Taurox, Stormraven, Centurions and many others heh), I hate everything else though lately, codieces rules exclusive formations forge the narrative etc.
That Toxicrene makes my hands tremble still, must buy asap. There's dozens of models on my to buy list for conversions and projects.
jah-joshua wrote: @Mario: i get where you are coming from...
i happen to disagree that GW models lack detail...
They do not lack detail on the front/back where the mould can deliver the crisp details but near the point where the moulds meet. Like around Space Marine knees. The point I am trying to make is less about greeble and more about attention to detail. They tend to just let it be a bit fluid way to often and it contrasts with the other details (chest eagle, skulls,…) that show up nicely. It mainly show in multi-pose models because all the parts need to be compatible with each other and sometimes they solve the problem even for multi-part miniatures but overall they let it slide way too often to justify that price in my opinion. And I just hate to see the parts and you can feel where they had to design something to work easily with the mould instead of solving the problem differently.
so you would be cool with buying the Studio McVey Katya LE resin for £14, but would not be ok with buying the GW Tech Priest for £16.50 because you think it lacks detail???
fair enough...
everyone has different taste, and should spend their money how they like...
No, I would be cool with buying a limited edition resin miniature for that price (or even a bit more, the LE part doesn't incentivize me) because of the production quality. I am actually not really interested in most of the Studio McVey LE miniatures for art direction reasons. Adeptus Mechanicus Tech-Priest Dominus ($36) is on a bigger base (I think) and because he doesn't have to be compatible with 9 other guys it looks like they have managed to put him on the sprue and minimize the lack of detail (near the mould line) but at $36 it's a bit too much for me. In this case I love the aesthetics as well as the technical limitations of the moulding process that they solved but not for $36.
If he were regular infantry size (for this comparison) and had additional parts (for slight variations) then I would pay up to $20, or about $25 for the slight bigger size he's now (and both would be quite at the limit). And GW just don't pay that much attention to a lot of the squad/regiment type of boxes to make these prices acceptable for me. Here's one example to explain what I mean (I probably could have added this to the first paragraph above): http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/catalog/product/600x620/99120101126_SpaceMarineAssaultSquadUltra05.jpg In the bottom right image of the knee the lower leg plate edge connects with just a solid surface to the upper leg plate (how would he even move the leg, there could be nice details for the joint articulation). There are innumerable of this type of flowing elements that could be made better in a medium with undercuts or by making things need more parts (lower leg, upper leg). Just like these small connectors that they added to the marines that connect their boots to leg armour plates on the outside (usually painted black). I might be persnickety about these details that are sometimes not even that visible but when they demand these prices then they need (in my opinion) to also survive that scrutiny. I mentioned that I am okay-ish with how FW handles this because they have better details (and fewer skulls).
to look at your Kingdom Death example from my perspective, i have to say that i would much rather paint the Blood Angels Tactical Squad than the Kingdom Death plastic Pin-Up set...
most people that i have seen posting about the BATac. Squad have complained that it had too much detail, not a lack of it...
personally, i think they look perfect, and the BA models really make me want to paint them...
I would also rather paint Blood Angels form an art direction/design language perspective but not from a production perspective (see above for why). And the BATS might have too much detail (as in clutter) and I would agree with that too but the details that get lost because of the production process are what I am complaining about. In the end just adding more greeble (or in GW's case: skulls) doesn't equal to better details.
from a price standpoint, considering that i think both sets are of equal quality and am only buying the models to paint, the Kingdom Death Pin-Up set is available for $100 and makes 8 models...
the Blood Angels box is available for $34.50 and makes 10 models...
suddenly GW doesn't look like such a bad prospect for a person just buying models to paint...
Ten Blood Angels for $30-40 are okayish in plastic even if I would prefer them to stay the lower end and if I could get 10 Kingdom Death production quality Space Marines (even tactical ones) for $100 I would buy them because that's the one thing KD has over GW. While I like some of their grotesque stuff most of KD is just too ballon-boobies for my taste. But most GW Space Marine characters who get near that level of quality start at $20 or more and even then you can often see design decision going into ease of production instead of solving problems to create something really great. And like I mentioned if they want to demand Porsche prices then they need to deliver A+ boutique company quality not "eh, it's good enough for the masses".
from a business perspective, where i am selling my painted figures, i know that the GW minis will sell after i paint them, but i am not so sure about the KD minis...
over a decade of experience has shown me that selling non-GW painted models is a much slower process, and brings in less than half as much as a GW model...
personally, i like both sets, and will buy both of them, but can i guarantee you that i will actually paint the Space Marines, while the KD set will just be something in a cool box gathering dust...
Of course but I don't have to consider that part (not a commission painter) and when I see all these tiny bits of laziness while also demanding these high prices and bragging about their quality it just doesn't add up to something I can value at what they want from me. I should probably add that the design/sculpting team probably could do much better in that regard (it's visible in most stuff that is not made for multi-pose squads/regiments) and the lack of attention to detail (not greeble) is probably because of business demands from the management in a similar way how their painters have to do what is needed and not whatever they want. So when I mention laziness I don't mean that the design studio is slacking off but as a shorthand for somebody above their paygrade that needs these things to be solved in that way.
I got 10 chaos Knights for $45 after tax. Brand new. Yeah...good deal that was well worth it. The metal ones. The ones that look like current Chaos Warriors with the furred cloak.
@Mario: your post made me dig out my Marines and have a look at the latest (2013) Tactical squad versus the previous set...
i know that i had found some of the detail around the feet and knees of the older set to be annoying to prep, as i'm a perfectionist, and have to carve out the bits that are not undercut enough in the molds...
the latest set has solved those problems...
the Vanguard have one or two leg sets where the feet still have a very slightly noticable bit that i will have to carve...
not sure about the Sternguard plastics...
i am sure that once i get my hands on the new Assault squad, and the new Dev. squad, that they will be as crisp as the Tacticals, since they have broken the legs into more pieces for better casting...
i have been on this ride with GW since their first plasty Fantasy Regiments box, which had one mono-pose design for six races, repeated over and over, and were not the most exciting minis...
when i look at the new kits, i can see where the design studio has constantly improved their engineering and design, through each generation of plastic models...
this is why i still enjoy the design studio's work, and continue to support GW...
every generation of model gets better than the previous...
i can see where they have made the changes that were needed, and continue to move forward with better design and mold making...
i also happen to like the "greeble", and the obsession with skulls, so GW's aesthetic is my favorite in the industry...
like i've said before, i own minis from almost every manufacturer, both Sci-Fi and Fantasy, but i keep coming back to painting Space Marines, because they are my favorite...
I must point out due to other comments in this thread, my objective was certainly not to inspire GW-bashing, I was genuinely outraged by the pricing of the models.
My involvement in the hobby is reading the novels and writing fanfiction (on those days when I've backed my ADHD into a corner). The GW might price people out of buying its models but the Heresy has always seemed to be the greatest tragedy in science fiction and the novels bring this to life. Writing fanfiction is free and can be extremely satisfying, and connects me to the spirit of the GW more than the games could ever do.
I used to love White Dwarf as the battle reports were one of the few places you'd find players who played for love of the game, rather than all the Screamerstar b.s. that people seem to do online. I once led a Tyranid army against a Space Marine assault cannon army of death. I've always felt it was the players who are broken, not the game.
Maybe the rules seem skewed because the GW design team play to gentlemen's rules and follow the fluff when playing/designing, whereas almost nobody seems to do this online. (My apologies to those who do.)
People can break anything; I've seen people beating FFVII Hardcore with low level characters because they crunch the numbers and seek out all the flaws that the designers never realised, because they were looking at the stars, not in the gutter.
My apologies if this offends anyone, it isn't intended to.
jah-joshua wrote: @Mario: your post made me dig out my Marines and have a look at the latest (2013) Tactical squad versus the previous set...
i know that i had found some of the detail around the feet and knees of the older set to be annoying to prep, as i'm a perfectionist, and have to carve out the bits that are not undercut enough in the molds...
the latest set has solved those problems...
the Vanguard have one or two leg sets where the feet still have a very slightly noticable bit that i will have to carve...
not sure about the Sternguard plastics...
i am sure that once i get my hands on the new Assault squad, and the new Dev. squad, that they will be as crisp as the Tacticals, since they have broken the legs into more pieces for better casting...
i have been on this ride with GW since their first plasty Fantasy Regiments box, which had one mono-pose design for six races, repeated over and over, and were not the most exciting minis...
when i look at the new kits, i can see where the design studio has constantly improved their engineering and design, through each generation of plastic models...
I started with this when they introduced 2ed 40k (and heroquest, I think, half a decade before that without knowing that they were related) and while their stuff got better I also haven't seen their most recent stuff in in my hands (although it looks in pictures like they got better as far as the material allows). Like I said there are improvements but the medium makes some stuff impossible and for me personally the improvements in their plastics have not improved enough to justify the quite substantial price increase. At some point my willingness just isn't there (even if I like their design language overall). With finecast I thought they would make fine detailed miniatures that cost a bit more than the plastics but are a bit easier to convert than their metal and well, we know how they managed to fumble that. I just don't trust them that much and I also don't know what they would need to do to earn that trust again especially with how the company has been behaving in recent years although I am much more fond of FW. Despite them being part of GW they are a different account so buying stuff would show GW that I want more of that quality but I still can't convince myself and GW has only themselves to blame if somebody stops buying; there is enough other great stuff out there.
this is why i still enjoy the design studio's work, and continue to support GW...
every generation of model gets better than the previous...
i can see where they have made the changes that were needed, and continue to move forward with better design and mold making...
i also happen to like the "greeble", and the obsession with skulls, so GW's aesthetic is my favorite in the industry...
like i've said before, i own minis from almost every manufacturer, both Sci-Fi and Fantasy, but i keep coming back to painting Space Marines, because they are my favorite...
In my case the design studio suffers because of corporate GW. I just don't think that me buying GW stuff would support the design team (that much) but instead the corporate entity that is handicapping them in multiple ways. Overall greeble/form details are good (or you get these textureless raw looking miniatures) and they have a solid design language in their products portfolio but they tend to overdo it, a bit like how some painters tend to paint all the freehand details on some cape or robe which in turn leaves the actual miniature in a state of being a mass of unreadable textures and lacking in composition. But I really like their stuff when they don't just cram all of it on a miniature and FW seems to get the balance right more often than GW.
Overall I kinda have to echo the complainers who really like WFB, 40k, and all of GW's games and miniatures (and want these to become better) but think that GW, the corporate entity, is crimping the design studio's style (the people making all the cool stuff). And, of course, we are angry and sad because we are or were invested in all of this and also because we see a lot of wasted potential.
Sometimes a model or kit looks good enough for the price.
Jah has the correct attitude by my perspective: $120 for a bottle of Scotch, foolish? A deal? Depends on the brand and your tastes.
The cool thing with a painter: more detail: sure ok that can be painted, an area with no features to it can be an opportunity for some freehand work. Depends on the balance the artists wants, their tastes.
The main issue with GW's pricing is inflation. Over the last 15 years:
* Assume their smaller models have, in general, increased in price by 50%.
* Assume larger kits have, in general, increased in price by 100%.
* Assume White Dwarf's price per month has increased by 100%.
* Assume their army books have, in general, increased in price by 300%.
Fine, inflation exists and the UK is an extremely expensive place to live.
Now assume the average UK citizen is earning the minimum wage of £6.50 per hour.
* This has increased from approximately £4.50 per hour in the late 90s.
* This would approximate to a roughly 30% increase in the minimum UK hourly wage.
So while the minimum UK wage has increased by 30% in 15 years, GW's prices have increased between 50% and 300% depending on the product.
Does anyone know how expensive it actually is to produce a plastic assault marine, or a box of 5 assault marines?
I know the GW staff were getting a 50% discount on GW's products and I believe a 10% or 20% discount on Forge World, which presumably was either cost value or more likely a small profit margin.
EDIT: I expect the production of plastic models *must* be fairly expensive, as the GW alternatives range from "almost as expensive" (Kings of War) to "way more expensive" (Tyrant Miniatures daemons of Nurgle).
I do buy quite a lot of GW stuff. Too much, in fact. However, when I come across a good deal I feel compelled to buy! Currently, I'm contemplating 30 Skiitari at $3 a piece along with an Onager for $50 and an Ironstrider for $40 at my Flgs.
the problem is when the people on the other side of the argument want me to join their team, at the expense of me giving up what i love to do, which is paint Space Marines...
This says it all.
I don't think that people who don't like GW products are ruining the hobby, stupid, foolish, wasteful, or any of that. Even if, somehow I felt that way, I would surely restrain myself from saying it. Yet the reverse seems to be an alien concept to some people.
I'm happy for people who have found something they enjoy, whatever that may be. If it's a fancy pool cue or fishing rod they like, great! If it's a sailboat, wonderful! If it's unpainted plastic miniatures bundled with a board game that costs $10, excellent! Have your fun, whatever you choose it to be, and stop deprecating other people or trying to convince them that what you do is the only thing a smart person would do.
I don't have any problem with people like Talys and jah buying as many GW models as their hearts please. But I think they're a small minority of the customer base, whose interest or backgrounds fit the model GW has been putting forth these past five or so years.
For a significant portion of the customer base- I dare say, a portion big enough to determine sustainability of the company in the track it is going- I don't feel they feel the same way.
But of course if GW's sustainability/future isn't something they're interested in (which is perfectly reasonable), then again more power to them, we can leave this conversation alone and agree to disagree.
@Accolade - it doesn't bother me at all when people have the opinion that GW's strategy is not a winning one. I agree with a lot of the things that people wish were different about GW. Like jah-Joshua, though, I like the product, the price is within my budget, and painting space Marines makes me happy.
What bugs me is when the folks who feel this way say or imply that people who continue to buy GW products aren't very bright (because other products are better, cheaper, made by companies that want to turn the Earth into a gaming paradise, or whatever), and those who try very hard to convince me to 'see the light'.
I mean, sometimes it feels like I'm talking to Jehovah's Witnesses knocking on my door or something
OP you'll find the price increases have mostly happened between 1998-2011, by and large they've plateaud for the last few years.
In particular the new assault squad has seen no increase in cost. It's just 2x the number of models, thus 2x the price. The contention is that you are paying the cost of an entire marine just for that jump pack (10x tacticals = the price of 5 assault with jump packs), but they actually have always been priced with such disparity...well since 2nd ed anyway -it's nothing new.
The GW products I would consider prohibitively expensive at present are:
Digital codexes (no printing costs, so why is there no saving tot he buyer)
Battle boards
Character Models
Multi-build elite squad packs like the Deathwing Terminaros / Knights / command squad or Grey Knights.
I only buy what I have to directly from GW, source everything else through through discounted online suppliers and bitz shops, and further reduce my costs by picking up some 2nd hand models cheaply and refurbishing them.
I wish ALL digital books were a lot cheaper than paper versions, but sadly, that isn't the case. In stuff I want, usually, the digital copy is exactly the same price as the printed book, and often MORE than a discounted paper book (that I can buy as a new release). It's infuriating, but GW is just following a crappy industry practice here. I wish there were a digital subscription to rules. Ironically, I would buy that, and most (though not all) of the printed books, because I like paper.
The Character models and clampacks are generally all really expensive. On the bright side, it's usually possible to kitbash a lot of the heroes. You'll even be happier for it, because you won't have to deal with finecast or old metal models
I dunno, I think the battle boards are not too bad. After the price increase, they are now $60 a piece for a 2x2 board, which is a little high, I suppose, but they are highly sculpted, much more so than any other boards. If this isn't your aesthetic (or you don't like playing city), get the SWM boards. The outdoors RoB boards are horrible because the hills are an impediment to playing, and there's no layout that makes them playable, IMO.
There are some elite/heavy kits that are worse than others -- for instance, centurions are really pricey and grotesques are out of this world.
I think basic space marine bikes are really pricey too. The sprues really aren't that nice, and you only get 3 bikes, plus they don't have the most popular weapon option (grav guns).
Talys wrote: @Accolade - it doesn't bother me at all when people have the opinion that GW's strategy is not a winning one. I agree with a lot of the things that people wish were different about GW. Like jah-Joshua, though, I like the product, the price is within my budget, and painting space Marines makes me happy.
What bugs me is when the folks who feel this way say or imply that people who continue to buy GW products aren't very bright (because other products are better, cheaper, made by companies that want to turn the Earth into a gaming paradise, or whatever), and those who try very hard to convince me to 'see the light'.
I mean, sometimes it feels like I'm talking to Jehovah's Witnesses knocking on my door or something
Fair enough, I was more getting to people griping at ya'll with the "look at the finances!", which I don't think is important to buying the models themselves.
I certainly agree that people shouldn't be calling you dim for purchasing GW models, that's absurd. I think people tend to get really frustrated with GW and desperately want them to change, and they end up taking it out on others for not disconnecting from GW when it is they themselves who should be disconnecting from a company that's become so unsatisfactory to them. And that's not to say they can't gripe, but getting so frustrated as to attack another poster over their purchas habits represents an unhealthy level of attachment to the company/game).
In particular the new assault squad has seen no increase in cost. It's just 2x the number of models, thus 2x the price. The contention is that you are paying the cost of an entire marine just for that jump pack (10x tacticals = the price of 5 assault with jump packs), but they actually have always been priced with such disparity...well since 2nd ed anyway -it's nothing new.
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The new assault squad is £25 as opposed to £20.50.
That's as near as dammit a 20% price rise, when with the advent of digital sculpting and advances in HIPs production the cost of production has probably remained at least flat in real terms, of not fallen (I'll admit I've not done the research to back it up, but I'm pretty sure they're fair assumptions.) The extra bits have a negligible material cost, so that can't justify it.
I appreciate there's a disparity between Tacs and ASM, but there has categorically been an increase in price of ASMs.
@thegreatchimp: i actually really like the interactive iBook codex style...
they have voice actors reading the flavor text, enlargable pictures, and pop-up rules...
sure, i could get the printed books for half-price, but as a traveler, having more books in my pack is not such a good thing...
having boxes of books in storage is even more pointless...
now, i can have all of the books i want on my iPad, saving me space and weight, and insuring that i have access to the books when i want them...
i wouldn't complain about a lower price, but i don't mind paying for the convenience, and great interactive layout of the iBooks Codex...
it is much better than having to bug my friends to go buy me books, and mule them down to Mexico, or waiting six months between their visits...
...
