So the codex of dooooooom has been out for a while now. When we saw that D came out, I suspected people's responses would prove to be an overreaction. Now that we've had time to play a few games, has anyone noticed strength D weapons really making a difference in their games? Around here, we had a guy run as much D as he could at a recent tournament. He won his third round match against chaos but lost his first two matches against a green tide and IG guardsman blob. I've only seen a few game since the new rules actually involve Wraith Knights. In the ones that I recall, it died to a green tide and an unusually lucky necron warrior blob (backed up by an Overlord with a scythe). I have yet to see anyone bother fielding D-cannon artillery. I know people have expressed interest in fielding a wraithseer with a D-cannon, but I haven't seen it hit the table yet. Wraith guard are doing well against the same targets as before; I haven't seen d-scythes come out to play yet. Not one has bothered taking (or even building) a hemlock around here yet.

The wraithknight still packs a punch (and takes incoming punches on the chin), and scatterbikes have proven to be nasty, but I haven't seen D weaponry actually make a difference yet.

At my last local tournament a week and a half ago, a D-spam army played by a relatively inexperienced player bulldozed every opponent and took first place. I haven't seen any other Eldar lists since then though.

Watched a D Spam army get absolutely wrecked by a Green Tide Ork army a few weeks ago, and I play in a very competitive environment with really good players before someone throws out the "must've been a bad Eldar player" bull excuse. Basically the Ork player asked where his D-Scythe Wraith units were and focused an insane amount of Tankbusta shots at them and their transport. With them out of the picture the Eldar player didn't have nearly enough models to function let alone win a game.

I used D-Scythe Wraithgurd with eldrad and outflanked 3 squads of 10 of the decimating 5 entire units as they came on the board.

 Xerics wrote:
I used D-Scythe Wraithgurd with eldrad and outflanked 3 squads of 10 of the decimating 5 entire units as they came on the board.

This is not an accomplishment. Nor anything to be proud of. You poor poor soul.

 gmaleron wrote:
Watched a D Spam army get absolutely wrecked by a Green Tide Ork army a few weeks ago, and I play in a very competitive environment with really good players before someone throws out the "must've been a bad Eldar player" bull excuse. Basically the Ork player asked where his D-Scythe Wraith units were and focused an insane amount of Tankbusta shots at them and their transport. With them out of the picture the Eldar player didn't have nearly enough models to function let alone win a game.

I'm confused why they were in a transport rather than with eldrad or allied to a DE with WWP... Maybe he was a crappy player, or at least a crappy list-maker.

I had my mates eldar d spam come at me, he wwp a dsythe unit come down and nuked my black knight unit with sammael, sadly the rest of his army got taken apart by the rest of my ravenwing as I just stayed out of range for the rest of the game and out maneuvered him, lucky game for me.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Xerics wrote:
I used D-Scythe Wraithgurd with eldrad and outflanked 3 squads of 10 of the decimating 5 entire units as they came on the board.

This is not an accomplishment. Nor anything to be proud of. You poor poor soul.

I didn't write the codex. I am only playing to the rules that were put before me. If you think thats bad I put 4 wraithknights in 1850 list and literally curb stomped every list that tried to stop me. Also if you think I am a Pay to Win person know that I have been playing Eldar since I started back in 2007 and have had 4 wraithknights for well over a year because of the dreamwalker squad in the apocalypse book (which is also pretty dirt broken if you ask me but again, didn't write the rules).

Just because you *can* doesn't mean you always *should*

I'm not gonna run 3 Wyverns in a 500pt list, even though I can

^ like he said. That makes you waac. You choose to.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Just because you *can* doesn't mean you always *should*

I'm not gonna run 3 Wyverns in a 500pt list, even though I can

Lol I will take my very best units available to me and my top lists when I go to tournaments (which this was). I had to fight against 2 Imperial Knight armies so I think it was warented. I don't run 4 wraithknights everytime I play at that point level. I have an entire binder of already premade lists and with the amount of Eldar I have I can make just about any list you can think of. In fact the only Eldar models I don't have are a few of the forgewrold tanks and flyers, shining spears, and Illic Nightspear. So before you call someone WAAC (@pain4pleasure) maybe you should gather some more information. Or you can continue to be a keyboard warrior if that's what you would prefer.

If saying someone is waac is being a keyboard warrior, you've just insulted 90% of dakka community. Since it isn't, and you're only trying to get a rise out of me, I'll ignore you from now on.

Epic accountability dodge. I want to try in my own little way. I'm really into fluff and aesthetics, it's all I dream about, I really like the fluffiness and aesthetics of the Wraithknights so I'm going to add 3 of them to my Ork list. It's got nothing to do with their stats or rules and not my problem take it up with the authors. XD

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
If saying someone is waac is being a keyboard warrior, you've just insulted 90% of dakka community. Since it isn't, and you're only trying to get a rise out of me, I'll ignore you from now on.

WAAC is very heavily overused by a lot of people for the wrong reasons.

Not knowing the context of Xerics entire list, their opponent's list, any pre-arranged negotiations/expectations, and general community style, calling a poster WAAC based on a few units is rather keyboard warrior-ish and generally not appropriate.

Further, this thread is about D weaponry. In it, people are going to post about if they used them, or if they were playing against them. We should be encouraging people to post their feedback on this matter, rather than immediately resorting to childish namecalling.

It's certainly the straw that broke the camel's back for my gaming group. It's not fun. So after 15 years of playing 40k pretty much exclusively, we've moved on. We'll come back if at some point in an idealistic unlikely future GW gets their act together.

At my most recent tournament outing, I faced 2 eldar lists. D-weapons didn't hurt me as much as the fact that Dark Angels friggin' suck right now. Looking forward to their new codex for sure. The two eldar lists were not horribly OP, but they weren't totally tame and fluffy, either. It's a strong codex, but not as broken as some are led to believe.

One Eldar player dropped out of 40k and just sold the last of his Eldar. Another refuses to use any D Weapons out of courtesy to their opponents. Another competitive Eldar player is winning just about everything he puts his models down for, unless you know, it's another Eldar player.

It is that bad. Eldar were very strong, they got that much better..

Well, in my experience it's just shoved things more towards the current trend:

1) heavy vehicles that are not flying or knights are trash

2) skimmers>>>>>>>>>>>>>>everything else

3) defensive stats are wastes of points. Anything SV3+ or 2+ had better be either drop podding or Jink-transported or it's dead

4) special weapon pricing is beyond absurd with the way GW is trying to "organize" it by making weapons the same price no matter what it's on. By contrast, unique upgrades that only one unit has are almost universally underpriced.

As with spamming anything, there's a point at which it's pointless to have any more of a particular thing.

To an upcoming local championship tournament, i'm taking a knight and 3 d-cannons. I think this is enough D. It's easily enough D. You need to complement it with units/weaponry good at taking out hordes and MSU's.

Has it impacted?

Yes. It bloody well has. I am an absolute boss at rolling 6's with my wraithknight. The last game I played, it punked two knights of an adamantine lance on turn 1. That, right there...is game over.

Haven't played wraithguard at all, not sure they're even needed.

played vs gunline IG army a few weeks ago, practically tabled him (1 guardsmen left at end of game). But my D weapons did NOT win me the game.....split firing wraithknight with suncannon and assault (and not stomp either), a solitaire/shadowseer parade plus rampaging wraithblades won the game. D weapon wraithguard popped a chimera and then were almost wiped out, so rode the rest of the game in the serpent.

So no, D weapons not raping right now.....wraithknight definitely so, even in the "weaker" suncannon disguise. Then again, even my wraithlord survived the battle.

Wyldhunt wrote:So the codex of dooooooom has been out for a while now. When we saw that D came out, I suspected people's responses would prove to be an overreaction. Now that we've had time to play a few games, has anyone noticed strength D weapons really making a difference in their games? Around here, we had a guy run as much D as he could at a recent tournament. He won his third round match against chaos but lost his first two matches against a green tide and IG guardsman blob. I've only seen a few game since the new rules actually involve Wraith Knights. In the ones that I recall, it died to a green tide and an unusually lucky necron warrior blob (backed up by an Overlord with a scythe). I have yet to see anyone bother fielding D-cannon artillery. I know people have expressed interest in fielding a wraithseer with a D-cannon, but I haven't seen it hit the table yet. Wraith guard are doing well against the same targets as before; I haven't seen d-scythes come out to play yet. Not one has bothered taking (or even building) a hemlock around here yet.

The wraithknight still packs a punch (and takes incoming punches on the chin), and scatterbikes have proven to be nasty, but I haven't seen D weaponry actually make a difference yet.

Codex Scatbikers and D-weapons is proving to be absurdly effective on the tabletop. Fortunately, the rest of the Eldar codex is very well balanced. At a competitive level, D-weapons haven't had as much of an effect as the meta was already shifting toward MSU. On an semi-competitive/friendly/casual/whatever you want level, D-weapons are broken as all get out. Fortunately, the solution is simple, either don't field Windriders and Distort weapons, or use the 6th edition rules for them. There, codex fixed.

Zagman wrote:One Eldar player dropped out of 40k and just sold the last of his Eldar. Another refuses to use any D Weapons out of courtesy to their opponents. Another competitive Eldar player is winning just about everything he puts his models down for, unless you know, it's another Eldar player.

It is that bad. Eldar were very strong, they got that much better..

(sarcasm) At least now we know where you got the ideas for your Eldar re-write (sarcasm). It's good to know that at least one of you local Eldar players has a soul. Send the competitive guy to fight a Pentatyrant list. Maybe then they'll decide to tone down their lists.

Eldar have always been a tough matchup for many armies. It doesn't hurt that they are very well suited to the meta. However, Eldar are far from unbeatable.

the_scotsman wrote:Well, in my experience it's just shoved things more towards the current trend:

1) heavy vehicles that are not flying or knights are trash

2) skimmers>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2x more expensive than everything else

3) defensive stats are wastes of points. Anything SV3+ or 2+ had better be in cover or a transport

4) special weapon pricing is beyond absurd with the way GW is trying to "organize" it by making weapons the same price no matter what it's on for marine armies. By contrast, unique upgrades that only one unit has are almost universally overpriced.

Fixed that for you.

I would argue that AV13/14 s even more important now with the abundance of S6/7 weapons out there. You could even make a case for Land Raiders if they cost about 30 points less stock.

The Wave Serpent is the most expensive dedicated transport in the game. The Ghost Ark is a close second. You could buy two Chimeras or three METAL BOXES for the same price.

Toughness is still very important. The reason more people use drop pods and bikes is to protect against the large amount of S5/6/7 weapons that are out there that don't care if you're T4 vs T3. But for small arms, the difference is big. It also protects HQs against instant death.

Yes, one cannon per jetbike is ridiculous. One per three is not. So only play with one per three, regardless of WYSIWYG.

In short, Eldar are powerful, and have some OP units. But it's not nearly as bad as it seems. People seem to have just adapted the same way they did with Necrons and Skitarii.

It hasn't really effected my local meta. the players who do well continue to do so. we have had a few eldar players come out to events but unfortunately they don't return due to the griping from the rest of the players. we had a Foot-Dar list with a mish mash of aspect warriors get first, to be fair the player had been playing eldar since the begging of time so he has some experience with the army.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

(sarcasm) At least now we know where you got the ideas for your Eldar re-write (sarcasm). It's good to know that at least one of you local Eldar players has a soul. Send the competitive guy to fight a Pentatyrant list. Maybe then they'll decide to tone down their lists.

Eldar have always been a tough matchup for many armies. It doesn't hurt that they are very well suited to the meta. However, Eldar are far from unbeatable.

Wow, eldar complaining about tyranids... and I thought I've seen everything...

so pentatyrants are cheese, while eldar are "well suited to the meta, but far from unbeatable"?

Most people are terrified about fighting my wife's Eldar without using extensive homebrew now. She annihilated someone in an apocalypse game within an hour with no serious losses of her own due to all the D-spam she could inflict, so yeah I'd say there's a problem. And that hour was half deploying stuff.

kburn wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

(sarcasm) At least now we know where you got the ideas for your Eldar re-write (sarcasm). It's good to know that at least one of you local Eldar players has a soul. Send the competitive guy to fight a Pentatyrant list. Maybe then they'll decide to tone down their lists.

Eldar have always been a tough matchup for many armies. It doesn't hurt that they are very well suited to the meta. However, Eldar are far from unbeatable.

Wow, eldar complaining about tyranids... and I thought I've seen everything...

so pentatyrants are cheese, while eldar are "well suited to the meta, but far from unbeatable"?

There are OP units and combos with everything. Gravstar and Adlance come to mind. And if five FMCs that each put out 12 TL S6 shots on top of being ML2 psykers isn't a cheesy list, I don't know what is.

Eldar have OP units, but aside from those are quite balanced. To a lesser extent, all armies have this problem of internal balance.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kain wrote:
Most people are terrified about fighting my wife's Eldar without using extensive homebrew now. She annihilated someone in an apocalypse game within an hour with no serious losses of her own due to all the D-spam she could inflict, so yeah I'd say there's a problem. And that hour was half deploying stuff.

Pulsars and Eldar Titans will do that. Besides, nobody plays Apocalypse competitively. You're there to blow things up with ridiculous powers and vehicles. Did the opponents not bring any Titans of their own?

I didn't think D "spam" was a problem. I thought it was "a moderate amount of D alongside other stuff" that was the problem because it gives you enough D to invalidate a lot of units while keeping lots of shots from your "other stuff" to deal with enemy units that D isn't really suited to taking on.

Cheap D-weapons are very one-sided. They're too good against big targets and don't matter against blobs.

For example, i'm running footslogging orks, i don't really care if you bring a d-cannon or a meltagun - it's all the same against boyz. But if i had a walker army, it'd be an auto-loose to me.
And that's basically echoed in the first few posts stating that D-spam looses badly to orks and ig hordes.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I didn't think D "spam" was a problem. I thought it was "a moderate amount of D alongside other stuff" that was the problem because it gives you enough D to invalidate a lot of units while keeping lots of shots from your "other stuff" to deal with enemy units that D isn't really suited to taking on.

This exactly.
It's not D alone, but D combined with so many other things that are too good.

 Xerics wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Xerics wrote:
I used D-Scythe Wraithgurd with eldrad and outflanked 3 squads of 10 of the decimating 5 entire units as they came on the board.

This is not an accomplishment. Nor anything to be proud of. You poor poor soul.

I didn't write the codex. I am only playing to the rules that were put before me. If you think thats bad I put 4 wraithknights in 1850 list and literally curb stomped every list that tried to stop me.

I'm a bit confused...you're trying to prove you're waac?

I had an anti-meta BA double land raider list (that pulled 5-1 and got me a pro painted knight at an ITC tourney,) that could keep some dudes chilled and protected against all the s6-7 firepower. Now that I can expect any given tourney eldar list to have at least one ranged D-weapon squad able to look funny at a land raider and smoke it, this is no longer a viable list to me. Especially since I fought 3 eldar out of 6 rounds.

The only thing worse then strength D is hearing how strength D sucks from an Eldar player. My brother has a large collection of wraith constructs (Iyaden) and thought I was overreacting when I was upset at the induction of strength D weapons. I proceeded to state that it makes a hard army even harder for no reason to which he basically said it's not an issue. Due to poor rolls in our first game he missed a lot and didn't manage to get any major kills till late turn 4-5 at which point he was complaining about how he can't kill units and that I was blowing things out of proportion. I still lost btw. The game was Eldar/Decurion Necron/ and Far sight Tau vs Chaos space marines/ Orks/Dark Angels. I want to say it was close but I can't.

Eldar AND Decurion?

So your brother played both the most resilient army in the game and the most killy.

You should smack him. Both because he deserves it as a gamer and because, as a brother, you're entitled to do so.

Ugh. Disgusting. I won't play any Eldar players until they get nerfed. This is out of hand.

 agnosto wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
Watched a D Spam army get absolutely wrecked by a Green Tide Ork army a few weeks ago, and I play in a very competitive environment with really good players before someone throws out the "must've been a bad Eldar player" bull excuse. Basically the Ork player asked where his D-Scythe Wraith units were and focused an insane amount of Tankbusta shots at them and their transport. With them out of the picture the Eldar player didn't have nearly enough models to function let alone win a game.

I'm confused why they were in a transport rather than with eldrad or allied to a DE with WWP... Maybe he was a crappy player, or at least a crappy list-maker.

Lol he actually is a very good player, nice try buddy. He was using an army that he had left over from last edition and putting Wraiths in wave serpents is not a horrible tactic. Typical person saying that Eldar open they have to be bad players to lose.

Ugh. Disgusting. I won't play any Eldar players until they get nerfed. This is out of hand.

Yowzah!
Is there nothing to be said from learning from defeats anymore?

 gmaleron wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
Watched a D Spam army get absolutely wrecked by a Green Tide Ork army a few weeks ago, and I play in a very competitive environment with really good players before someone throws out the "must've been a bad Eldar player" bull excuse. Basically the Ork player asked where his D-Scythe Wraith units were and focused an insane amount of Tankbusta shots at them and their transport. With them out of the picture the Eldar player didn't have nearly enough models to function let alone win a game.

I'm confused why they were in a transport rather than with eldrad or allied to a DE with WWP... Maybe he was a crappy player, or at least a crappy list-maker.

Lol he actually is a very good player, nice try buddy. He was using an army that he had left over from last edition and putting Wraiths in wave serpents is not a horrible tactic. Typical person saying that Eldar open they have to be bad players to lose.

You know the game still involves dice right? And that even good players screw up sometimes? And that even OP lists have matchups they don't like? No one is or was saying eldar would have 100% win rate from the new book on. If they did, quote it so we can all laugh at them. There's so much "randumb" in the game that even crazy hard lists can lose. A seer council can perils, roll a 1, fail a ld test, and suck up a bunch of ap1 hits in addition to an insta death. (I had this finally happen to one of my Libby + drop pod squads the other day myself.)

People are saying eldar are broken because they are. They give you an inherently higher win chance against most of the possible competition, before you make a single strategic decision. Same thing with decurions and war congregations. Yes, it does seem kind of odd when a supposedly "good" player loses with them, but hey, even a ballerina can trip.

 Ferros wrote:
Eldar AND Decurion?

So your brother played both the most resilient army in the game and the most killy.

You should smack him. Both because he deserves it as a gamer and because, as a brother, you're entitled to do so.

I should shouldn't I. But it was me and two work friends ( chaos and orks) vs my brother's eldar, his friends necron and his other friends tau.

Basically it was wraith advancing with necron tanks and tau providing dps.

Silver lining is I managed to bust out my Ravenwing and win a Ravenwing vs Decurion and tau. Actually almost tabled bit it was so hard. Facing my brother's eldar this weekend. He's expanding to scatbikes though...

Scatterbikes aren't that's scary, the scariest thing I've faced is the aspect word formation where you can boost either the BS or WS of particular units. & I would rather face bikes & D weapon spam then Dark Reaper spam with that formation.

 Inkubas wrote:
The only thing worse then strength D is hearing how strength D sucks from an Eldar player. My brother has a large collection of wraith constructs (Iyaden) and thought I was overreacting when I was upset at the induction of strength D weapons. I proceeded to state that it makes a hard army even harder for no reason to which he basically said it's not an issue. Due to poor rolls in our first game he missed a lot and didn't manage to get any major kills till late turn 4-5 at which point he was complaining about how he can't kill units and that I was blowing things out of proportion. I still lost btw. The game was Eldar/Decurion Necron/ and Far sight Tau vs Chaos space marines/ Orks/Dark Angels. I want to say it was close but I can't.

Eldar AND Necron Decurion AND Farsight Enclaves? Vs your Chaos Marines, Orks and Dark Angels? I really wish that I could say that someone wouldn't want to play such an unfair game because they would feel bad for their opponent, but unfortunately I can't. I know it's a stereotype that 40K players are typically friendless "nerds" who get picked on by the big guys. But seriously. Some people must really have a really sad life if they enjoy crushing an opponent in a game of pushing plastic models around. I have the belief that these kind of people are those that have little friends and little success in their own life. And by crushing other players, they can feel superior to others, in an attempt to big themselves up, because they don't have anything else in life that they can be proud of. Though I'm not saying this about your brother, some people that do this kind of thing can just be oblivious to how screwed up 40K games can be if you aren't careful. And some people like the fluff aspect of playing, for example, Eldar vs IG, two people could play knowing the Eldar has a powerful list that the IG can't overcome, but they enjoy recreating that kind of scenario that is presented in the fluff.

 Gamgee wrote:
Ugh. Disgusting. I won't play any Eldar players until they get nerfed. This is out of hand.

Dude you need to play me, I've been playing no D weapons in a Highlander style list for my non-tourney games. last 3 games my opponents said something I hadn't heard in a long time after a games of 40K. "That was a really fun game".

 gmaleron wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
Watched a D Spam army get absolutely wrecked by a Green Tide Ork army a few weeks ago, and I play in a very competitive environment with really good players before someone throws out the "must've been a bad Eldar player" bull excuse. Basically the Ork player asked where his D-Scythe Wraith units were and focused an insane amount of Tankbusta shots at them and their transport. With them out of the picture the Eldar player didn't have nearly enough models to function let alone win a game.

I'm confused why they were in a transport rather than with eldrad or allied to a DE with WWP... Maybe he was a crappy player, or at least a crappy list-maker.

Lol he actually is a very good player, nice try buddy. He was using an army that he had left over from last edition and putting Wraiths in wave serpents is not a horrible tactic. Typical person saying that Eldar open they have to be bad players to lose.

So, you're basing your statement that Eldar aren't broken based upon one person in your area who you admit hasn't updated his lists to include the new hotness? Yeah, that makes total sense. Don't get mad at me bro, it's your eldar player that limiting himself. Of he's putting wraiths in serpents rather than taking advantage of available abusive combos, that's not an indicator of skill, list or codex power, that's your eldar player being a reasonable, nice person.

The fact is that a relatively poor player can take an eldar list and beat people much better than them because GW gave eldar tools that they haven't given other armies.

it's not even that, I'm just tired of people crying and complaining about the new Eldar, guess what get over it. Instead of whining and moaning about it maybe people should discuss ways to counter such armies, you know think constructively. its not changing anytime soon so complaining about it doesn't solve a thing, and the Eldar are strong but they are not overpowered. That Eldrad Wraith shenanigans is pretty easy to avoid if you know what's coming, it's about gathering knowledge of the army and figure out ways to counter it. Last thing we need is another thread about people crying about Eldar it's gotten pretty old.

And seriously? The latest Imperial Army stuff come out is just as nasty, maybe not the same way but they are. Guarantee plenty of people are not going to be happy with grav weapons that can nuke a Wraithknight or Riptide at 30 inch range or having an army of 5 Imperial Knights with a 3 + invulnerable save running up the table at them. Eldar are not the only army to have lists or combos that make it easy to win.

 koooaei wrote:

 Xerics wrote:

Pain4Pleasure wrote:

 Xerics wrote:
I used D-Scythe Wraithgurd with eldrad and outflanked 3 squads of 10 of the decimating 5 entire units as they came on the board.

This is not an accomplishment. Nor anything to be proud of. You poor poor soul.

I didn't write the codex. I am only playing to the rules that were put before me. If you think thats bad I put 4 wraithknights in 1850 list and literally curb stomped every list that tried to stop me.

I'm a bit confused...you're trying to prove you're waac?

If you read the conversation a bit further you might have gotten the rest of the story.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gmaleron wrote:
Scatterbikes aren't that's scary, the scariest thing I've faced is the aspect word formation where you can boost either the BS or WS of particular units. & I would rather face bikes & D weapon spam then Dark Reaper spam with that formation.

Shhhh don't let people know about the dark reaper spam!

 Inkubas wrote:
The only thing worse then strength D is hearing how strength D sucks from an Eldar player. My brother has a large collection of wraith constructs (Iyaden) and thought I was overreacting when I was upset at the induction of strength D weapons. I proceeded to state that it makes a hard army even harder for no reason to which he basically said it's not an issue. Due to poor rolls in our first game he missed a lot and didn't manage to get any major kills till late turn 4-5 at which point he was complaining about how he can't kill units and that I was blowing things out of proportion. I still lost btw. The game was Eldar/Decurion Necron and Far sight Tau vs Chaos space marines/ Orks/Dark Angels. I want to say it was close but I can't.

Yeah people in denial of how strong their army is are among the most ann-wait a minute.

 Inkubas wrote:
Due to poor rolls in our first game he missed a lot and didn't manage to get any major kills till late turn 4-5 at which point he was complaining about how he can't kill units and that I was blowing things out of proportion. I still lost btw. The game was Eldar/Decurion Necron and Far sight Tau vs Chaos space marines/ Orks/Dark Angels. I want to say it was close but I can't.

 Inkubas wrote:
I still lost btw. The game was Eldar/Decurion Necron and Far sight Tau vs Chaos space marines/ Orks/Dark Angels I want to say it was close but I can't.

 Inkubas wrote:
The game was Eldar/Decurion Necron vs Chaos space marines/Dark Angels

 Inkubas wrote:
Eldar/Necron

 Inkubas wrote:
Chaos space marines/Dark Angels

I have only played a wraith/bike army once with my legion drop pod assault list(anything that doesn't have deepstrike must ride in a drop pod if it has that option). I devastated it. My cheapest unit (6 man flamer unit) wiped his most important unit(bikeseer, full shurikan bikers x5) in the first drop, and my assault marines wiped both of his other bike units in my first turn. Game ended with me beating down his wraithknight in close combat with the sole remaining assault sergeant's powerfist and holdinig every objective on the board with something. 17 D weapons total, not impressed.

 gmaleron wrote:
Watched a D Spam army get absolutely wrecked by a Green Tide Ork army a few weeks ago, and I play in a very competitive environment with really good players before someone throws out the "must've been a bad Eldar player" bull excuse. Basically the Ork player asked where his D-Scythe Wraith units were and focused an insane amount of Tankbusta shots at them and their transport. With them out of the picture the Eldar player didn't have nearly enough models to function let alone win a game.

Thats either very lucky ork BS2 shooting, which can happen because they get a lot of raw shots. Or wasnt real D-spam.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inkubas wrote:
The only thing worse then strength D is hearing how strength D sucks from an Eldar player.

You need some caveats here, yes the redone Iyanden D-spam can be offensive, but some in fact many Eldar players self police, dont like thre changes dont like D-spam and dont like strength D. I am one.

So yes, I am an Eldar player and I think strength D sucks.

 Zagman wrote:
One Eldar player dropped out of 40k and just sold the last of his Eldar. Another refuses to use any D Weapons out of courtesy to their opponents. Another competitive Eldar player is winning just about everything he puts his models down for, unless you know, it's another Eldar player.

It is that bad. Eldar were very strong, they got that much better..

Is the competitive Eldar player me? I'm winning about exactly as much as I was with the 6th ed. codex; all the time. Not joking--won a tournament with my 6th ed. codex, came back a few weeks later with my list translated into 7th ed. and won again. /shrug

Ranged D isn't the problem, the way I see it. The problem is that one of the platforms with access to ranged D is vastly undercosted, has a tremendous threat range and is nigh-unkillable (has no obvious weaknesses). Spamming Wraith Guard is a trap (too expensive, completely ineffective against hordes). Spamming Scat Bikes is a trap (huge footprint, sub-optimal Leadership). But a Wraith Knight with Heavy Wraith Cannons--that is a REAL problem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

niv-mizzet wrote:
I had an anti-meta BA double land raider list (that pulled 5-1 and got me a pro painted knight at an ITC tourney,) that could keep some dudes chilled and protected against all the s6-7 firepower. Now that I can expect any given tourney eldar list to have at least one ranged D-weapon squad able to look funny at a land raider and smoke it, this is no longer a viable list to me. Especially since I fought 3 eldar out of 6 rounds.

I have a battle report vs. a Blood Angel mech list going up this weekend. I was playing my Cloudstrike with Fire Dragons and Webstriking Scytheguard in a Wave Serpent (didn't tailor for him--didn't know we'd be playing each other). The Wraith Knight's D only accounted for one vehicle (the Land Raider Prometheus, merely wrecking it) before it was held up by a lone TH/SS Sergeant for 6 rounds of close combat...because he kept making his 3++ and I couldn't roll a '6' on the Stomp table. The Webstriking Scyethguard accounted for 3 Death Company and 2 hull points (1?) on a Vindicator. The rest of the vehicles were taken out by the Wave Serpent (side armor on a Vindicator), Falcons (hello, Pulse Lasers!), and Fusion Guns.

So, yeah, Mech and low-model-count lists are far less viable, but if you control for delivery methods (Cloudstrike, Deep Striking Raiders, Webstriking <-- Webway Portal), only the Wraith Knight remains a threat. Granted, it's a gigantic threat.

I personally think a modification of the D chart would be the best answer. Simply take away the 6 and make it less effective or do less damage.

I personally think removing D weapons from the standard game is the best answer.

With the new Mechanicum Kataphrons with either Torsion or Heavy Grav Cannons, Wraithknights shouldn't be a problem for IoM armies anymore. Watched a single squad of these just last night obliterate a Wraithknight in a single round of shooting.

 gmaleron wrote:
With the new Mechanicum Kataphrons with either Torsion or Heavy Grav Cannons, Wraithknights shouldn't be a problem for IoM armies anymore. Watched a single squad of these just last night obliterate a Wraithknight in a single round of shooting.

Remember: Completely erasing an enemy unit in a single shooting phase is acceptable if (and only if) it involves rolling more than one die, regardless of the relative probabilities involved in erasing the unit. Why? Because rolling a handful of meaningless dice is 'interactive' but picking up your model because your opponent rolled a '6' is not.

DCannon4Life wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
With the new Mechanicum Kataphrons with either Torsion or Heavy Grav Cannons, Wraithknights shouldn't be a problem for IoM armies anymore. Watched a single squad of these just last night obliterate a Wraithknight in a single round of shooting.

Remember: Completely erasing an enemy unit in a single shooting phase is acceptable if (and only if) it involves rolling more than one die, regardless of the relative probabilities involved in erasing the unit. Why? Because rolling a handful of meaningless dice is 'interactive' but picking up your model because your opponent rolled a '6' is not.

I play Sisters of Battle, and I disagree.

Whichever weapon or action the enemy takes to remove my models, if I roll a 6, it stays.
If a whole army can just roll 6s to save anything, then what is the issue of a weapon doing the reverse?

You still need to get that 6. I still need to roll 6s for the invuns.

 BlackTalos wrote:

DCannon4Life wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
With the new Mechanicum Kataphrons with either Torsion or Heavy Grav Cannons, Wraithknights shouldn't be a problem for IoM armies anymore. Watched a single squad of these just last night obliterate a Wraithknight in a single round of shooting.

Remember: Completely erasing an enemy unit in a single shooting phase is acceptable if (and only if) it involves rolling more than one die, regardless of the relative probabilities involved in erasing the unit. Why? Because rolling a handful of meaningless dice is 'interactive' but picking up your model because your opponent rolled a '6' is not.

I play Sisters of Battle, and I disagree.

Whichever weapon or action the enemy takes to remove my models, if I roll a 6, it stays.
If a whole army can just roll 6s to save anything, then what is the issue of a weapon doing the reverse?

You still need to get that 6. I still need to roll 6s for the invuns.

A 6 on the D chart does not allow invul saves so your sisters go away no matter how many dice you want to roll about it. There is no answer to a 6 on the D chart, just pick the model/unit up and pack them away, they have effectively been deleted from existence.

 BlackTalos wrote:

DCannon4Life wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
With the new Mechanicum Kataphrons with either Torsion or Heavy Grav Cannons, Wraithknights shouldn't be a problem for IoM armies anymore. Watched a single squad of these just last night obliterate a Wraithknight in a single round of shooting.

Remember: Completely erasing an enemy unit in a single shooting phase is acceptable if (and only if) it involves rolling more than one die, regardless of the relative probabilities involved in erasing the unit. Why? Because rolling a handful of meaningless dice is 'interactive' but picking up your model because your opponent rolled a '6' is not.

I play Sisters of Battle, and I disagree.

Whichever weapon or action the enemy takes to remove my models, if I roll a 6, it stays.
If a whole army can just roll 6s to save anything, then what is the issue of a weapon doing the reverse?

You still need to get that 6. I still need to roll 6s for the invuns.

My apologies: My post was sarcasm. People seem to find it easy to conceptualize the certainty of removing a model (or models) involved with a single die rolling a '6' (on the D table), which amounts to, what, ~16%? But people seem to find it difficult (or impossible) to conceptualize the certainty of removing a model (or models) involved with rolling dozens of dice that can be twin-linked, ignore cover, do an additional wound for every '6' that is rolled, etc. Or, as has been the case, they move the goal-posts, switching from an 'it's not interactive' argument to an 'it's undercosted' argument, avoiding a consistent application of 'interactive play'. /shrug

I'm not having trouble finding games where I play, and I am grateful for that.

 Ratius wrote:
Yowzah!
Is there nothing to be said from learning from defeats anymore?

"And today I had a 4 hour lesson in how bad 40k is unbalanced"

 gmaleron wrote:
With the new Mechanicum Kataphrons with either Torsion or Heavy Grav Cannons, Wraithknights shouldn't be a problem for IoM armies anymore. Watched a single squad of these just last night obliterate a Wraithknight in a single round of shooting.

Sure all I need to do to have a chance against eldar players who bought one army and one codex, is to buy 2 or 3 army books and play those as a combo army instead of the IG which I want to play. Good argument. Also what stops eldar from taking the same kataphrons?

Makumba wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
With the new Mechanicum Kataphrons with either Torsion or Heavy Grav Cannons, Wraithknights shouldn't be a problem for IoM armies anymore. Watched a single squad of these just last night obliterate a Wraithknight in a single round of shooting.

Sure all I need to do to have a chance against eldar players who bought one army and one codex, is to buy 2 or 3 army books and play those as a combo army instead of the IG which I want to play. Good argument. Also what stops eldar from taking the same kataphrons?

The fact your not Battle Brothers? And sorry you chose the army you play and really your trying to go that route. According to that logic it could also be easily said "man I wish I had access to over half of the books in the game like IoM" yeah, "great" argument on your part.

 Kain wrote:

 Inkubas wrote:
The only thing worse then strength D is hearing how strength D sucks from an Eldar player. My brother has a large collection of wraith constructs (Iyaden) and thought I was overreacting when I was upset at the induction of strength D weapons. I proceeded to state that it makes a hard army even harder for no reason to which he basically said it's not an issue. Due to poor rolls in our first game he missed a lot and didn't manage to get any major kills till late turn 4-5 at which point he was complaining about how he can't kill units and that I was blowing things out of proportion. I still lost btw. The game was Eldar/Decurion Necron and Far sight Tau vs Chaos space marines/ Orks/Dark Angels. I want to say it was close but I can't.

Yeah people in denial of how strong their army is are among the most ann-wait a minute.

 Inkubas wrote:
Due to poor rolls in our first game he missed a lot and didn't manage to get any major kills till late turn 4-5 at which point he was complaining about how he can't kill units and that I was blowing things out of proportion. I still lost btw. The game was Eldar/Decurion Necron and Far sight Tau vs Chaos space marines/ Orks/Dark Angels. I want to say it was close but I can't.

 Inkubas wrote:
I still lost btw. The game was Eldar/Decurion Necron and Far sight Tau vs Chaos space marines/ Orks/Dark Angels I want to say it was close but I can't.

 Inkubas wrote:
The game was Eldar/Decurion Necron vs Chaos space marines/Dark Angels

 Inkubas wrote:
Eldar/Necron

 Inkubas wrote:
Chaos space marines/Dark Angels

Alpha Legion chaos at that...

 agnosto wrote:
A 6 on the D chart does not allow invul saves so your sisters go away no matter how many dice you want to roll about it. There is no answer to a 6 on the D chart, just pick the model/unit up and pack them away, they have effectively been deleted from existence.

Indeed, just as: apart from a D-weapon, there is no answer to a 6 on my Invun, whatever strength, special rules, or re-rollabillity of your anti-Tank weapons on my Rhino.

However well you do on To Hit, To Wound, re-rolls, 7 on the damage table, 3D6 to pen armour, etc.... If i get my 6+ Invun on the Rhino, it stays on the board.
If the opponent gets a 6+ on the D Table, it's removed from the board.

Same thing.

Oh wait, not if it's a Super-heavy, or even inside a Void shield generator you discard that D-Hit... Then it doesn't even cause a single Wound! Does that make Void Shields Super-OP-so-unfair-you-have-one?

D Weaponry is Rock. You have Scissors, it's normal for you to complain. Maybe you should find some Paper

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Ratius wrote:
Yowzah!
Is there nothing to be said from learning from defeats anymore?

"And today I had a 4 hour lesson in how bad 40k is unbalanced"

Lesson took 4 hours? Did he repeat it 4 times? /boom!

Just kidding So far, I've only had one opponent straight up quit playing, but he wasn't a strong player in the first place (who infiltrates Stealth Suits 12" away from a Wraith Knight in ANY edition?).

DCannon4Life wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Ratius wrote:
Yowzah!
Is there nothing to be said from learning from defeats anymore?

"And today I had a 4 hour lesson in how bad 40k is unbalanced"

Lesson took 4 hours? Did he repeat it 4 times? /boom!

LOL, touché

 Kain wrote:

 Inkubas wrote:
The only thing worse then strength D is hearing how strength D sucks from an Eldar player. My brother has a large collection of wraith constructs (Iyaden) and thought I was overreacting when I was upset at the induction of strength D weapons. I proceeded to state that it makes a hard army even harder for no reason to which he basically said it's not an issue. Due to poor rolls in our first game he missed a lot and didn't manage to get any major kills till late turn 4-5 at which point he was complaining about how he can't kill units and that I was blowing things out of proportion. I still lost btw. The game was Eldar/Decurion Necron and Far sight Tau vs Chaos space marines/ Orks/Dark Angels. I want to say it was close but I can't.

Yeah people in denial of how strong their army is are among the most ann-wait a minute.

 Inkubas wrote:
Due to poor rolls in our first game he missed a lot and didn't manage to get any major kills till late turn 4-5 at which point he was complaining about how he can't kill units and that I was blowing things out of proportion. I still lost btw. The game was Eldar/Decurion Necron and Far sight Tau vs Chaos space marines/ Orks/Dark Angels. I want to say it was close but I can't.

 Inkubas wrote:
I still lost btw. The game was Eldar/Decurion Necron and Far sight Tau vs Chaos space marines/ Orks/Dark Angels I want to say it was close but I can't.

 Inkubas wrote:
The game was Eldar/Decurion Necron vs Chaos space marines/Dark Angels

 Inkubas wrote:
Eldar/Necron

 Inkubas wrote:
Chaos space marines/Dark Angels

Have an exalt sir!

I really don't care to hear people complaining about Eldar using WWP for auto-wins etc. It's not like Eldar have the sole rights to the ally matrix. the new admech stuff, knights etc makes IoM lists have infinite destructive capabilities. c'est la vie. I don't want the D chart changed either (whether playing with it or against it), when I win/lose a game, I want to know it was versus the best the opponent could do...not some watered down version to not hurt my feelings.
there are MANY ways to play this game, all are justifiably right. I can tailor a list to be OTT or very casual with friends for a laid back match-up. I don't sign up for the WAAC guy membership as I think that's a dumb term.

Have Eldar D weapons impacted the game? Absolutely. It's fantastic. Gotta love when your opponent makes a luck roll and you get to remove your model with no saving roll of any kind. Saves you all the hassle of trying to take cover/jink/invulns. Pssshh, who needs'em. Lets just play 50+ model pick-up. Sounds like a better game, in my opinion. The game of the future.

 BlackTalos wrote:

 agnosto wrote:
A 6 on the D chart does not allow invul saves so your sisters go away no matter how many dice you want to roll about it. There is no answer to a 6 on the D chart, just pick the model/unit up and pack them away, they have effectively been deleted from existence.

Indeed, just as: apart from a D-weapon, there is no answer to a 6 on my Invun, whatever strength, special rules, or re-rollabillity of your anti-Tank weapons on my Rhino.

However well you do on To Hit, To Wound, re-rolls, 7 on the damage table, 3D6 to pen armour, etc.... If i get my 6+ Invun on the Rhino, it stays on the board.
If the opponent gets a 6+ on the D Table, it's removed from the board.

Same thing.

Oh wait, not if it's a Super-heavy, or even inside a Void shield generator you discard that D-Hit... Then it doesn't even cause a single Wound! Does that make Void Shields Super-OP-so-unfair-you-have-one?

D Weaponry is Rock. You have Scissors, it's normal for you to complain. Maybe you should find some Paper

These rocks come in flamer form. WHERE IS YOUR PAPER NOW!?

Mustela wrote:
These rocks come in flamer form. WHERE IS YOUR PAPER NOW!?

You can't tell because of the awesome airbrush gradient job, but the paper is constructed of ceramite nanotubes.

 krodarklorr wrote:
Have Eldar D weapons impacted the game? Absolutely. It's fantastic. Gotta love when your opponent makes a luck roll and you get to remove your model with no saving roll of any kind. Saves you all the hassle of trying to take cover/jink/invulns. Pssshh, who needs'em. Lets just play 50+ model pick-up. Sounds like a better game, in my opinion. The game of the future.

It's almost as annoying as playing against the Decurion and watching my opponent roll multiple times, re-rolling ones, then not removing any casualties. Hooray for power creep!

Eldar D weapons for 60 odd points on arty, and inside transports with wraith has pretty much ruined playing games against eldar, so yeah I think they had exactly the impact that was expected.
The sad thing is it really brings arguments and damages the hobby. Eldar as an army should just be avoided by everyone, then maybe GW will proof read the next book.

The D guard remind me of something I once heard in a TV show:

"A lot of people think the word commando means super-hero, or at least something close to it. In the popular mind, they're thought of as the ultimate elite soldier, the solution to every problem. The fact is, a commando is just someone trained to fight under a specific set of circumstances. He's the guy you send in when there are more bad guys than good guys, when surprise is the only advantage you can get in an operation. When it works, commandos seem unstoppable. Those are the operations that make the papers. When it doesn't work, commandos get killed just as dead as anyone else."

Replace "commando" with "D guard" and "trained" with "equipped" and it pretty much sums up what I've experienced playing my brother's wraith list and seeing him play others. The D guard are either unstoppable, or get shot off the board very quickly before doing too much or even any damage. The result is always an extreme, but it's not always or even significantly more commonly in the Eldar's favor. And that's if they've had mobility support added with a WS or DS, otherwise they're kind of a joke. The WK is no joke and terrifying in it's own right, but really, he and I both think in a D guard heavy list the SC/SS option is better anyways; "Too much of a good thing" and all that.

I think the people who tend to harp on the D either don't get to play against it much or refuse to and don't have a lot of experience with it in action and then complain the loudest. That or they have no real mobility to deal with it, which is a legitimate problem for some armies, but that lack of mobility isn't going to hurt you solely against Eldar since mobility is a very important part of the game regardless.

I'd much, MUCH, rather face a D heavy wraith host then the scatterspam, Seer Council, Crimson Death list my brother has been tweaking. That is an absolute monster, and I don't think he's lost with it yet.

What army do you play? Because D absolutely wrecks any army that is reliant on vehicles, or small expensive models and limits the other person's playstyle. Do you like a decked out HQ? Sucks. Do you like transporting your mobs of troops? Sucks. Have that single prize vehicle? Sucks.

Gray Knights? Sucks Bye
Armored (Insert army here)? Sucks.
Tau? Sucks.

Not only does it kill some major armies, but even playstyles. The main defense against D is a host of bodies, but then you bring out the D templates, or large blast (Or Apoc Blast apoc storm, lulz) or etc.

I've played against D as Necrons. I used to enjoy bringing vehicles, or my Enclave, or etc. It's just stupid now. -And I understand that as the most resilient army, it must REALLY hurt people who play more fragile things. Might just go full Mechanicus soon, which wouldn't be terrible.

Large quantities of D is stupid. A person might find it more or less stupid than the general average floating around in a given community, but it is still, none the less, stupid, and I'd appreciate if you could just acknowledge that.

I already acknowledged what you said, very specifically. I said it can go in either way in both extremes and just that it always isn't in the Eldar's favor. Sometimes D heavy wrecks, sometimes it gets wrecked. Either people don't play it much and they don't know how to deal with it, or they don't have what is needed to deal with it. And then went on to give an example of something that was much more general steam roller to more lists in general. So I'd appreciate it if you acknowledged my acknowledgement I guess?

Well it has affected our meta by making the eldar players quit in frustration so yes.

 Suicidal.Simian wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Have Eldar D weapons impacted the game? Absolutely. It's fantastic. Gotta love when your opponent makes a luck roll and you get to remove your model with no saving roll of any kind. Saves you all the hassle of trying to take cover/jink/invulns. Pssshh, who needs'em. Lets just play 50+ model pick-up. Sounds like a better game, in my opinion. The game of the future.

It's almost as annoying as playing against the Decurion and watching my opponent roll multiple times, re-rolling ones, then not removing any casualties. Hooray for power creep!

Well, we can't have that, now, can we? That would drag out the game. Thus, everyone play with "Auto-remove <insert model here>" guns! Speeds things up.

And while you're at it, just join me in playing X-wing.

 Ferros wrote:

Gray Knights? Sucks Bye

I remember not too long ago when Grey Knights did the same thing to Daemons... How the tables have turned.

More on topic, I've played games now with and without D weapons, and the only game I lost (out of only 3 so far, to be fair) was with the one where I brought a couple squads of wraithguard, 2 scatterbike units and a Wraithknight (amongst other things). The other two were Aspect heavy lists with only a single jetbike unit in each, and one had a melee wraithknight (which got plinked down by autocannon havocs turn 2 due to some unfortunate rolls from me) All 3 games were very close, like last turn dice roll close. Has D affected the game? Of course it has, but so have fortifications, the addition of Lords of War, and Grav weaponry. There are certain things that can't deal with D, and certain things that just laugh in its face. As someone else said earlier, I think a few Aspect Hosts loading up on Dark Reapers and/or Fire Dragons is just as terrifying as D spam, as you have the ability to deal with basically any type of list with it.

I think that whats been worse for the game then the D spam of Eldar has been all the people complaining about it before they've actually faced it, and decrying all Eldar players as soulless WAAC players regardless of what they're actually bringing. Let me tell you, it gets pretty old seeing people do the eye roll every time I bust out my Eldar army, even though I tend towards lists that keep in theme of my Alaitoc army, with at least a squad of rangers, and a bunch of aspect warriors running around. How about instead of vowing never to play against Eldar, we vow to not play against people who abuse the rules in general?

Or whatever, just jump on whoever's codex gets the OP treatment next. That's probably easier and more satisfying.

the only real issue is a culmination of GWs flexible ruleset that allows people to create all these so called "stars". D wrecks anything with a high points cost attached to it, but apart from a WWP, you know where they are and can take them down (glance a serpent to death). I take Suncannon Knight since I have wraithguard and he wrecks far more stuff than the D does, to the point where I'm going to stop using him until my opponents add better counters. D Guard are great but hvy weapons melt them easily. The same weapons that bring down their transports have a good chance of knocking out the occupants.
On the flip side, as an opponent, it does make you think twice about bringing that expensive 1 piece model to the game without some form of plan to take out the serpents. Nothing can be done about the WWP unfortunately unless you have a screen of cheap troops. I do believe that Grey Knights are extremely vulnerable to this so will need to ally with something to absorb the hits.
In all reality, d cannons would wreck a lot of these vehicles in the past anyway, it's just more of a guarantee now than it ever was. Takes away the thought process of risking a unit hoping it will survive...it won't (unless all 1s and 2s rolled). I guess that's one tactical advantage
I will not quit playing my Eldar (silliness...spent a lot of money on these models), but my playstyle is leaning more toward harlequins and dark eldar now anyway...lot's of squishy fun.

The D weapons aren't the biggest problem. Scatterbikes and Wraith Knights being Gargantuan are the two biggest offenders currently, as most of the D weapons in the codex are D-lite anyway.

Assuming they don't change drop pods just play Skitarii (normal or namely in the God Convocation of lets make these new models OP beyond reason so we sell them all) and then you can not only get rid of all the Eldar players in your area, you can also collect a super cheap Eldar army.

SilverSaint wrote:
Assuming they don't change drop pods just play Skitarii (normal or namely in the God Convocation of lets make these new models OP beyond reason so we sell them all) and then you can not only get rid of all the Eldar players in your area, you can also collect a super cheap Eldar army.

Unless you don't get first turn and the Eldar player wipes enough units off the board to reduce you below the 8+ for Canticles.

Because with how Canticles are set up, you're very reliant upon those numbers to keep Canticles at their best.

The primary impact D weapons have had here is to increase crying and make people not play against Eldar lists. They haven't actually had an in-game impact, because I haven't seen someone play against Eldar since the new codex dropped. People are just refusing to try, which is silly. As an Eldar player, other than 2 units of wraithguard with D-scythes that I had prior to the new codex, I don't own anything with D-weapons. Also, I'm far less interested in using the D-weapons than using several other things in the codex, like the new seer councils, aspect shrines and such. Still doesn't matter, because people auto-eyeroll and don't want to play against eldar because of all the online crying.

Yeah, that's why.

Because nobody ever bothered to try playing against them.
Ever.

Yup, nobody anywhere has actually played against them. Not a soul has tried it. Nobody has witnessed a game or read a battle report. Everyone everywhere is just refusing to play the new Eldar.

>_>
<_<

Lets be completely fair here. D weapons have not made people want to avoid playing eldar.


.....now if we include scatbike spam, the aspect host making 5+ ws/bs the norm, rerollable psychic powers with only needing 3s, the best flyer formation in the game, THEN we start seeing why nobody wants to play eldar.

 Kanluwen wrote:

SilverSaint wrote:
Assuming they don't change drop pods just play Skitarii (normal or namely in the God Convocation of lets make these new models OP beyond reason so we sell them all) and then you can not only get rid of all the Eldar players in your area, you can also collect a super cheap Eldar army.

Unless you don't get first turn and the Eldar player wipes enough units off the board to reduce you below the 8+ for Canticles.

Because with how Canticles are set up, you're very reliant upon those numbers to keep Canticles at their best.

Not really. Of the canticles two really matter, shroudpsalm and benediction of the omniscience. Outside of those 2 canticles the others are just icing on the cake or are really specific. Of those two only shroudpsalm cares about 8+ as for all intensive purposes benediction at 4-7 is the same as 8+ since the entire army will be BS4+ besides the Kataphrons. When you go second vs a alpha strike shooting list, yes shroudpsalm does becomes significantly worse, moving from the best army buff in the game to pretty good.

Due to drop pods/Knight/general list setup its incredibly hard to reduce the Convocation below 8 units on Turn 1, not that it even matters that much and being below 8 is almost irrelevant after Turn 1. If the Eldar go first they probably aren't killing 3+ units entirely, probably the dragoons and rust stalkers at most assuming they are easily visible in ruins.

 Orock wrote:
Lets be completely fair here. D weapons have not made people want to avoid playing eldar.


.....now if we include scatbike spam, the aspect host making 5+ ws/bs the norm, rerollable psychic powers with only needing 3s, the best flyer formation in the game, THEN we start seeing why nobody wants to play eldar.

That's the gist of what people are saying.
It's not one thing alone, its ALL the other stuff Eldar have as well.

CaptainSuperglue wrote:Eldar D weapons for 60 odd points on arty, and inside transports with wraith has pretty much ruined playing games against eldar, so yeah I think they had exactly the impact that was expected.
The sad thing is it really brings arguments and damages the hobby. Eldar as an army should just be avoided by everyone, then maybe GW will proof read the next book.

Somebody tied to start a movement for that back when the Eldar rumors first hit. Spoilers: it didn't go well (And I know you're reading this, poster-who-will-not-be-named )

MWHistorian wrote:

 Orock wrote:
Lets be completely fair here. D weapons have not made people want to avoid playing eldar.


.....now if we include scatbike spam, the aspect host making 5+ ws/bs the norm, rerollable psychic powers with only needing 3s, the best flyer formation in the game, THEN we start seeing why nobody wants to play eldar.

That's the gist of what people are saying.
It's not one thing alone, its ALL the other stuff Eldar have as well.

I agree that the D-weapons and Scatbikers and Wraithknights are bad, but those are for the most part the only standouts.

The Crimson Death is probably undercosted for what it can do; it would make more sense if it used the Crimson Hunter's old cost, so it would be 400 points vs. 340.

The Seer Council is powerful. but two things have to be kept in mind:
1=Cost. The formation costs 235 points minimum to up to 500+ points depending on the number of Warlocks and how much you're into jetbikes.
2=Limitations. None of the ICs can leave this formation, so there's an incentive for adding bodies to it. The runes of the farseer is powerful, but forces a re-roll of the entire result, increasing the chance of perils and not necessarily increasing the chance of a success, even on an 3+. Also, this formation cannot stand alone. It needs an additional CAD or Warhost to be effective, increasing its overall cost.

I fail to see why people are complaining about the Aspect Host. It requires a significant investment in terms of points to be effective, and also can't stand alone as an army. The only problems with it are people spamming the same Aspect and taking it in a CAD. If people are having trouble killing Aspect Warriors, I don't know what to tell them.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
The runes of the farseer is powerful, but forces a re-roll of the entire result

This isn't true at all, you can choose any number of dice as per the rule...its not just a re-roll.

I wonder if the people complaining about D-strength weapons now are the same ones who were complaining about the introduction of escalation and lords of war into normal games of 40k. The one seems quite the natural counter to the other.

Personally, I don't mind it. I play the numbers game instead of superman-hammer.

That being said, the rest of the army wrecks face and the points cost of the D cannons means the eldar have shifted our local meta without having to give up effectiveness to do so.

 Kain wrote:

 Inkubas wrote:
The only thing worse then strength D is hearing how strength D sucks from an Eldar player. My brother has a large collection of wraith constructs (Iyaden) and thought I was overreacting when I was upset at the induction of strength D weapons. I proceeded to state that it makes a hard army even harder for no reason to which he basically said it's not an issue. Due to poor rolls in our first game he missed a lot and didn't manage to get any major kills till late turn 4-5 at which point he was complaining about how he can't kill units and that I was blowing things out of proportion. I still lost btw. The game was Eldar/Decurion Necron and Far sight Tau vs Chaos space marines/ Orks/Dark Angels. I want to say it was close but I can't.

Yeah people in denial of how strong their army is are among the most ann-wait a minute.

 Inkubas wrote:
Due to poor rolls in our first game he missed a lot and didn't manage to get any major kills till late turn 4-5 at which point he was complaining about how he can't kill units and that I was blowing things out of proportion. I still lost btw. The game was Eldar/Decurion Necron and Far sight Tau vs Chaos space marines/ Orks/Dark Angels. I want to say it was close but I can't.

 Inkubas wrote:
I still lost btw. The game was Eldar/Decurion Necron and Far sight Tau vs Chaos space marines/ Orks/Dark Angels I want to say it was close but I can't.

 Inkubas wrote:
The game was Eldar/Decurion Necron vs Chaos space marines/Dark Angels

 Inkubas wrote:
Eldar/Necron

 Inkubas wrote:
Chaos space marines/Dark Angels

Thanks for the laugh. I feel like I have to give a bit of a back story. I started playing with the Dark Vengeance boxset with a friend. He went chaos and I went DA back in 6th edition. My brother came over and decided (after some review) to choose Eldar because he liked the elitist attitude of the Eldar and got the book around the launch date of the book in 6th edition. My brother liked Iyaden because of all the wraith models and built up a massive army around that. He also got a few bikes for the lols. After my brother posted some models on FB one of his friends decided to pick up Tau because they look like mechs and focused on Riptides and broadsides. The two of them played with us and eventually one of my brother's friends decided to play and picked up the Necron (army of killer t1000) and one of my work friends went orks because of the WAAAAGGGH!

My brother and his tau friend have an arms race with min/maxing the lists to the best potential because they face each other often, and whenever they face Chaos/DA have more than enough guns to bear as a result. 7th edition comes by and the Necron and Eldar are buffed up. So I've played more than my share of Tau/Eldar alliance or Tau/Necron or Necron/Eldar. As such I've learned the hard way to sacrifice models to achieve objectives and have had more than my share of losses.

That game was a bit of the young vs old (DA/Chaos/Orks) are the older of the group and I knew I was going to get slaughtered.
Recalling the list it was something like this:

DA (ravenwing)
-Sam on jetbike /w command squad & apothecary
-bike squad w/ 2x meltas
-bike squad w/2x melta
-Culexus assassin

Orks
-Warboss
-bunch of grots
-a lot of killa kans w/ flamers
-squad of lottas
(I'm not too familiar with the orks)

Chaos (unbound)
Chaos sorcerer (Telepathy?)
3 groups of Obliterators

VS

Eldar
-Spiritseer
-Farseer (Santic?)
-wraithguard
-wraithknight w/ wraithcannon

Necron
- Decurion

Tau
-Crisis suits w/ missles
* I don't recall what build it was but I remember that it was a TON of shots that went towards my bikes constantly until I was tabled.

Basically, it was an Eternal war mission. Necron went after the ork player, Tau took me on and Eldar vortexed and deep attempted to deep strike on chaos side.

EDIT: I went ravenwing for the match against my chaos friend and only had ravenwing /w assassin w/ 2x vindicators and knew that I would be the one scoring points due to the mobility. Chaos player didn't have any of his fliers or deamons and the ork player was trying a new list. The list was 3k point on each side (from what I recall).

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Orock wrote:
Lets be completely fair here. D weapons have not made people want to avoid playing eldar.


.....now if we include scatbike spam, the aspect host making 5+ ws/bs the norm, rerollable psychic powers with only needing 3s, the best flyer formation in the game, THEN we start seeing why nobody wants to play eldar.

That's the gist of what people are saying.
It's not one thing alone, its ALL the other stuff Eldar have as well.

That wasn't what people WERE saying. The main gripe when the codex came out was D-weapons and scatbikes. Now, granted, scatbikes are very good. Are they better than serpent spam from last edition? I'm not convinced. That said, it wasn't until AFTER people realised that D-weapons aren't actually as devastating as anticipated, because they're all on platforms that are severely limited in some way(ie, Wraithknight can only hit a max of 2 models per turn, so useless against infantry, d-cannons are vulnerable to melee attacks and lack range/mobility, and wraithguard can be killed fairly easily by AP3 weapons or tied up in melee) that people started to claim other aspects of the book were what they're complaining about. BS5/WS5 aspect warriors? Yeah, they're good. They're also expensive and all S3/T3. For a similar price to WS5 Striking Scorpions, you can get S4/T5 Space marine bikers(or White scars bikers with S5 hammer of wrath, and obsec if you take Khan). Are the eldar aspects good? Yes. They're finally a decent representation of what they're supposed to be. They're semi-immortal beings who have dedicated their lives to perfecting a particular warrior aspect. They've developed their skill to levels far beyond what even most space marines could hope to attain. But they're still eldar, hence the S3/T3, and balance. From a pure statistics perspective, I'd personally rather have the space marine bikers than the scorpions.

And for those comparing prices:

5x Striking Scorpions w/Exarch & Scorpion's Claw - 125 points
5x White Scars Space Marine Bikers w/Sarge & Power Fist - 130 points

If only looking at rules, I'd take the space marines any day of the week. Are other things in the Eldar codex good? Sure. But they're not far and away better than other things available to many other armies.So let's stay on topic here. People are/were upset about scatbikes, and D-weapons/Wraithknights. Any other complaining is just grasping at straws for something else to complain about as their arguments claiming the massive superiority of D-weapons begin to unravel against the forces of reality.

Anything that D weapons are hurting, we've already gotten used to from fighting Knights.

D Cannon weapons platforms are rough, but a small blast, with full scatter indirect (as it usually goes) isn't so terrifying.

But i haven't f aced wraithguard yet.

But just the way the game has been going the last few years, I kind if expect a unit to dissappear with one good shooting phase. MSU disposable units to the rescue!

I think it's the overall book that people are disliking. The vast majority of players play SM or something within the IoM which would struggle against an Eldar list. Other players play less powerful Xenos armies and can't think of ways around certain meta parts of the Eldar Codex.
I understand that D strength weapons aren't the end all be all but they are something that can change the entire meta of the game and when you add bikes, transports, fliers, psychers etc. (each things that change the meta of the game) you find that the Eldar have come out on way on top.
I know they are T3 models but what weakness does the Eldar codex have that is not overcome easily by another aspect in the same codex. Assume you have multiples of all the models in your codex. You can field anything you want within your codex and you're facing an eldar player that can also do that. Unless you list tailor you're going to have a hard time to win against their codex and even if you do list tailor you may find that it's still a tough fight because of all the game mechanics that can be exploited by a skilled Eldar player.
What other codex do you know what can remove a multi wound model without any saves of any kind? If each codex got access to something that would do strength D it'd be a bit more balanced.
Do I think the book is broken? Not yet (but I haven't played enough against it) but I can see it being equivalent of bringing Anderson Silva to fight a GW store rep. Can the store rep win? Sure. Will he/she win? Unlikely. Will the store rep complain? Of course!

I played a cheese list, and still managed a close game and I use CSM as my primary.

I played a fluff Eldar list, and won through a forfeit.

But i don't use vehicles, and make sure every unit I field is disposable.

We'll see how the meta shifted (if anything) next time there's a tournament

 Inkubas wrote:
I think it's the overall book that people are disliking. The vast majority of players play SM or something within the IoM which would struggle against an Eldar list. Other players play less powerful Xenos armies and can't think of ways around certain meta parts of the Eldar Codex.

I disagree, and have demonstrated multiple army lists from multiple factions that can stand up to multiple wraithknights and a wide range of other eldar and non-eldar lists. Without list tailoring, I could make SM or IG TAC lists that would perform well vs. both WK eldar and a wide range of other lists. I am an Eldar/Dark Eldar player, and went undefeated with Eldar through 6th Edition, and only lost once with DE. I'm not super-experienced in playing IG or SM, but I know their rules, as any good enemy should, and am confident that I could play against most naysayers here with their own army, while letting them play with my Eldar, and beat them. It's more about knowing what units can do, how much they cost, and what can/can't kill them effectively.

As an example, it seemed as though tarpitting had fallen out of favor through 6th edition, in my opinion. But it is something that many more people should consider to be a cheap alternative to "beating" overpowered individual units in 7th. If you can tie up 700 points of your opponent's units with 300 points of your own for the entire game...sure, maybe you didn't "beat" the unit in the traditional sense, but in the end, you lost access to 400 points LESS than what your opponent lost. With a 400 point advantage on your opponent now, that's a pretty good equalizer. People don't always appreciate how amazing some of the small things their army has access to is. Like 3 point conscripts for IG, with 25 point commissars that can make a blob of 50 of them fearless. 175 points for 51 fearless objective secured models. I'd run as many of these units as I could fit on the table. It's incredibly difficult to peel off 51 fearless models, even when they're conscripts. And with obsec, it doesn't matter if they're doing good in that fight on the objective, so long as they're IN that fight on the objective. They can tie up plenty, and would be amazing for Eldar, who's cheapest troop is triple that cost. I seriously considered starting a new IG army when I accepted the challenge of making an IG list that could stand up to Eldar. IG have some really amazing stuff. Unfortunately, when I started adding up the price to purchase the models and the time to paint them all up appropriately, I gave up on the idea of starting IG too. Just too much commitment.

Almost every other army also has good stuff, and can stand up to Eldar. The majority of battle reports I've seen regarding the new Eldar have resulted in Eldar Victories, but they've largely been "close" victories. And this is in line with ANY new codex. Generally, when a new codex comes out that isn't nerfed into oblivion *cough*DarkEldar*cough*, people tend to win with it at first. A big part of the reason for that is, people playing the new eldar codex are probably fairly familiar with the rules in their own army. Other non-eldar players likely haven't spent nearly as much time with the rules, or playing against them to fully know everything they do. So the newness factor is typically an advantage for whoever is playing the new codex, of any faction.

That said, I'm an Eldar player, but many of the things other factions have makes me flush with envy too. It's natural. It doesn't mean the other guy is OP, but that is often the kneejerk reaction any time something new and different comes along in the 40k community.

How do you tarpit anything eldar with IG, when all their stuff is much faster? I play against eldar a lot, and most of the games I play look like one of those two things. My opponent starts blows up my chimeras and then I am too slow to get on to objectives and he kills everything else while staying out of range of most of my stuff, depending on luck by turn 2-3 the game is done. Or I start move on to objectives, with luck get some points, and then he blows up my chimeras and vet squads and the same happens as If I he had started.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

 Inkubas wrote:
I think it's the overall book that people are disliking. The vast majority of players play SM or something within the IoM which would struggle against an Eldar list. Other players play less powerful Xenos armies and can't think of ways around certain meta parts of the Eldar Codex.

I disagree, and have demonstrated multiple army lists from multiple factions that can stand up to multiple wraithknights and a wide range of other eldar and non-eldar lists. Without list tailoring, I could make SM or IG TAC lists that would perform well vs. both WK eldar and a wide range of other lists. I am an Eldar/Dark Eldar player, and went undefeated with Eldar through 6th Edition, and only lost once with DE. I'm not super-experienced in playing IG or SM, but I know their rules, as any good enemy should, and am confident that I could play against most naysayers here with their own army, while letting them play with my Eldar, and beat them. It's more about knowing what units can do, how much they cost, and what can/can't kill them effectively.

As an example, it seemed as though tarpitting had fallen out of favor through 6th edition, in my opinion. But it is something that many more people should consider to be a cheap alternative to "beating" overpowered individual units in 7th. If you can tie up 700 points of your opponent's units with 300 points of your own for the entire game...sure, maybe you didn't "beat" the unit in the traditional sense, but in the end, you lost access to 400 points LESS than what your opponent lost. With a 400 point advantage on your opponent now, that's a pretty good equalizer. People don't always appreciate how amazing some of the small things their army has access to is. Like 3 point conscripts for IG, with 25 point commissars that can make a blob of 50 of them fearless. 175 points for 51 fearless objective secured models. I'd run as many of these units as I could fit on the table. It's incredibly difficult to peel off 51 fearless models, even when they're conscripts. And with obsec, it doesn't matter if they're doing good in that fight on the objective, so long as they're IN that fight on the objective. They can tie up plenty, and would be amazing for Eldar, who's cheapest troop is triple that cost. I seriously considered starting a new IG army when I accepted the challenge of making an IG list that could stand up to Eldar. IG have some really amazing stuff. Unfortunately, when I started adding up the price to purchase the models and the time to paint them all up appropriately, I gave up on the idea of starting IG too. Just too much commitment.

Almost every other army also has good stuff, and can stand up to Eldar. The majority of battle reports I've seen regarding the new Eldar have resulted in Eldar Victories, but they've largely been "close" victories. And this is in line with ANY new codex. Generally, when a new codex comes out that isn't nerfed into oblivion *cough*DarkEldar*cough*, people tend to win with it at first. A big part of the reason for that is, people playing the new eldar codex are probably fairly familiar with the rules in their own army. Other non-eldar players likely haven't spent nearly as much time with the rules, or playing against them to fully know everything they do. So the newness factor is typically an advantage for whoever is playing the new codex, of any faction.

That said, I'm an Eldar player, but many of the things other factions have makes me flush with envy too. It's natural. It doesn't mean the other guy is OP, but that is often the kneejerk reaction any time something new and different comes along in the 40k community.

This would be a more compelling argument if you could tarpit anything Eldar with IG scripts.

Scripts can tarpit anything but A) super mobile things that don't care about them, or B) Superheavies, as on average a stomp attack will remove 20-25 of them, and can even target and isolate the commissar.

There's really no reason anything useful the Eldar have should get tarpitted by conscripts. They just have to plop barrage D weapons on the commissar and poof, blob is no more.

I think you're doing stomp wrong. No way are you getting 12+ models under each blast template.

Makumba wrote:
How do you tarpit anything eldar with IG, when all their stuff is much faster? I play against eldar a lot, and most of the games I play look like one of those two things. My opponent starts blows up my chimeras and then I am too slow to get on to objectives and he kills everything else while staying out of range of most of my stuff, depending on luck by turn 2-3 the game is done. Or I start move on to objectives, with luck get some points, and then he blows up my chimeras and vet squads and the same happens as If I he had started.

Solution: Stop playing Maelstrom. It's really not a very balanced mission style, and makes a game that already relies on dice even more luck-based.

Further, I completely disagree with your entire style of building an IG army. Not saying it's bad, it's just not my style at all, so I'm not going to spend a lot of time telling you how to make YOUR build work. Instead, here's how I'd make IG work in general: They're a gunline army. So form a gunline. They have plenty of 48" range weapons to sit in the back. Use them in your own deployment zone to rain death upon the enemy without moving your troops. In my opinion, there should basically be 2 types of things in your IG list:
1. Things with 36"-48" weapons that are basically stationary in your gunline, likely getting a cover save from aegis and/or camo gear.
2. Cheap hordes of models that you use to footslog up the board to contest objectives.

Using the above method, you force your opponent to either shoot at your devastating gunline that likely has a 3+ cover save all around, thus allowing your cheap obsec infantry to march towards objectives, OR they focus a bunch of firepower on killing 3 point models, in which case your devastating gunline gets to fire on the enemy unmolested.

If I was an IG player, the words "Veterans" wouldn't be in my vocabulary. They're a trap. A points sink. Same with their transports, because they're transporting something like vets. And if they're transporting anything other than vets, then you're not making your squads of guardsmen or conscripts big enough. Chimera are cheap enough to take them, but I'd never actually use them as a transport. I'd just unlock them as a dedicated transport and use them as an additional obsec unit that could move upfield to contest objectives and shoot at infantry.

@the_scotsman: Yeah, they shouldn't be taking that many off to stomps, and further, you can definitely tarpit and area deny with conscripts. With 2 full units of conscripts, I can string them out across the table by the end of turn 2, in a pattern where there is nothing anywhere on the table that couldn't be reached by them on turn 3. You just have to be willing to recognise them for exactly what they are: Completely expendable units who's job is to lock down objectives and/or tarpit enemy models. This means you'll line them up strung out at the very edge of your deployment zone to begin with. Don't bother looking for cover. If your opponent shoots at them, he's doing you a favor. If you do things this way, when you DO charge something like a WK, your squad will be strung out across the board, and so will not be close enough or clumped enough for many to be killed by stomps. It will take a pretty fair amount of time for them to all get within range to participate in the combat, and that's the entire point. You'd use their distance, numbers, and pseudo fearlessness to tarpit. If a table was big enough, a full squad of conscripts with a Commisar could form a 10 foot long conga line.

2. Cheap hordes of models that you use to footslog up the board to contest objectives.

How do I do that? Even if they run, it takes two turns to get on to an objectives when footslogging. And most armies kill 20-30 geq per turn. I would have to send 40 or more of them to be on an objective for one turn. And while my dudes are walking my opponent has 2 turns to get VPs for sitting on objectives from turn 1.

I don't get how you charge a WK, it is much faster. The only way for it to be in melee is, if it was a sword one and near your tanks and even then the constripts have to survive two turns of shoting to try to tar pit one, a ft er that they still have to deal with stomp. And it is still just one knight, there could be more or there could be a unit of flamer WGs or Spiders to kill enough of them to get to the commisssar and break them.

Yes, considerate eldar players are avoiding them and thereby making us aware of just how much other ridiculous stuff is hidden inside those 160 pages...

 gmaleron wrote:
Watched a D Spam army get absolutely wrecked by a Green Tide Ork army a few weeks ago, and I play in a very competitive environment with really good players before someone throws out the "must've been a bad Eldar player" bull excuse. Basically the Ork player asked where his D-Scythe Wraith units were and focused an insane amount of Tankbusta shots at them and their transport. With them out of the picture the Eldar player didn't have nearly enough models to function let alone win a game.

Bad Eldar player?

Martel732 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:
Watched a D Spam army get absolutely wrecked by a Green Tide Ork army a few weeks ago, and I play in a very competitive environment with really good players before someone throws out the "must've been a bad Eldar player" bull excuse. Basically the Ork player asked where his D-Scythe Wraith units were and focused an insane amount of Tankbusta shots at them and their transport. With them out of the picture the Eldar player didn't have nearly enough models to function let alone win a game.

Bad Eldar player?

Given the number of shots you'd need on average to down a Jinking Wave Serpent, you'd need like five full Tankbusta units to bring down two in one turn on average (72 Rokkits, 24 hit, 12 HP's inflicted against AV12, 4+ jink reduces that to 6HP's inflicted betweeen 2 Wave Serpents), and that's assuming the Tankbusta's have range with 24" Rokkits, unless the Wraith units were trying to footslog, in which case, the Eldar player isn't making an overwhelmingly strong list, and sure, those Wraith units are going to die absurdly quickly.

My sisters of battle want the D.

ninepaces wrote:
My sisters of battle want the D.

Well I'm glad I play as Orks when it comes to D weapons. I fear ranged weapons with high rates of fire and especially if an army can field lots of them......*glares at scatterbikes*

Makumba wrote:

And while my dudes are walking my opponent has 2 turns to get VPs for sitting on objectives from turn 1.

If this is true, then you ignored the very first sentence of my post to you, which is: Don't play Maelstrom missions. Boycott them. They simply aren't a balanced game style. They involve too much luck, and favor armies that have lots of skimmers/jetbikes, such as Eldar and DE. It's not a fair game mode. Encourage your friends to play Eternal war missions instead.